Document zzy4xa9mLjZwKxX9OmxbjZQra

FILE NAME: National Safety Council (NSC) DATE: 1984 Mar 28 DOC#: NSC175 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Schmidt, Philip E. 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT TWENTIETH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT 2 ST. CLAIR C O U N T Y , ILLINOIS 3 ROBERT L. SHARP, 4 Plaintiff, 5 vs. 6 ILLINOIS CENTRAL GULF RAILROAD COMPANY, a corporation, 7 Defendant. 8 > ) ) ) ) Cause No. 83-L 584 ) ) ) ) ) 9 4*i- IN THE CIRCUIT COURT & TWENT IETH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT 10 ST. CLAIR COUNTY,*ILLINOIS 11 ISABEL S. ROSER, Adm inistratr ix ) of the Estate of BEN P. ROSER, ) 12 Dece a s e d , ) 13 Plaintiff, 14 VS . No 82-L-1011 15 ILLINOIS CENTRAL GULF RAILROAD COMPANY, a corporation, 16 Defendant. 17 18 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF SOUTH CAROLINA 19 COLUMBIA DIVISION 20 IE: 21 ASBESTOS CASES 22 ) ) Insulator, ) Shipworker ) Plantworker ) 23 24 Sullivan Reporting Company 1 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DI STRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF WESTjVIRGINIA 2 AT HUNTINGTON ! 3 EMALENE M. STONE, Executrix of ) the Estate of ACIE K. STONE, ) 4 Deceased, ) ) 5 Plaintiff , ) 6 vs . ) ) Civil Action ) No. 81-3159 7 JOHNS-MANVILLE SALES CORPORATION ) A Delaware corporation, et al., ) 8 ) Defendants . ) 9 ,? 4 10 IN THE UNITED STATES'DISTRICT COURT WESTERN DISTRICT OF KENTUCKY 11 AT LOUISVILLE 12 JAMES C. BAGGERLY, 13 Plaintiff, 14 vs. ) ) ) ) ) Civil Action ) No. C-83-1190 L-B 15 SEABOARD SYSTEMS RAILROAD, INC., ) e t a 1. , ) 16 ) Defendants. ) 17 18 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA 19 LECHNER, ) 20 ) Plaintiff, ) 21 ) 22 vs. CON RA I L , et al., ) Civil Action ) No. 82-2301, et al. ) 23 ) Defendants ) 24 Sullivan Reporting Company 2 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF SOUTH DAKOTjA 2 SOUTHERN DIVISION 3 BURGER, 4 Plaintiff, 5 vs . 6 CHICAGO NORTH WESTERN TRANSPORTATION CO. 7 Defendant. 8 ) ) ) ) ) Civil Action ) No. 83-4118 ) ) ) ) 9 -''J*'.#** fHE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE^ . 10 BROWN, ) 11 ) Plaintiff, ) 12 ) vs. ) Civil Action 13 ) No. 1-83-280 SOUTHERN RAILWAY COMPANY, ) 14 ) Defendant. ) 15 . ,, ;_ 16 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF UTAH 17 CENTRAL DIVISION 18 TEA , 19 Plaintiff, 20 vs . 21 DENVER & RIO GRANDE WESTERN RAILROAD CO., 22 De fendant. 23 ) ) ) ) ) Civil Action ) No. C82-1174(C) ) ) ) ) 24 Sullivan Reporting Company 3 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF NEBRASKA 2 CARROLL , ) 3 ) Plaintiff, ) 4 ) vs. ) Civil Action 5 ) No.83-0-615 UNION PACIFIC RAILROAD CO., ) 6 ) Defendant. ) 7 8 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF WEST VIRGINIA 9 jr . AT HUNTINGTON r. -*f " -1- _ 10 JUDD, Plaintiff, 11 vs. 12 THE CHESAPEAKE & OHIO 13 RAILWAY CO., 14 Defendant '") "" : ) ) ) Civil Action ) No. 83-3035 ) ) ) ) 15 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 16 EASTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA 17 SCHOLL, ) ) 18 Plaintiff, ) ) 19 vs. ) Civil Action ) No. 82-1685 20 CON RAILand THE READING CO., ) ) 21 Defendants. ) 22 23 24 Sullivan Reporting Company 4 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT TWENTIETH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT I 2 ST. CLAIR COUNTY, ILLINOIS f 3 PEASE, 4 Plaintiff, 5 vs . 6 ILLINOIS CENTRAL GULF RAILROAD CO., 7 Defendant. 8 ) ) ) ) ) No. ) ) ) ) ) 82-L-1012 9 fi- N H E UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT WESTERN DISTRICT OF -VI RG IN-I'A . 10 ROANOKE DIVISION ` : 11 PALMER, 12 Plaintiff, 13 vs . 14 NORFOLK & WESTERN RAILWAY CO. , 15 Defendant. 16 ) ) ) ) ) Civil Action ) No. 83-0282-R ) ) ) ) 17 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF MARYLAND 18 DAVIS, ) 19 ) Plaintiff, ) 20 ) vs. ) Civil Action 21 ) N o . N- 83-4 22 WESTERN MARYLAND RAILWAY C O ., et a l ., ) ) ) 23 Defendants. ) 24 Sullivan Reporting Company 5 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF MARYLANDi 2 YERGAN , ) 3 ) Plaintifff, ) 4 ) vs . ) Civil Action 5 ) No. H-83-1231 THE BALTIMORE & OHIO ) 6 RAILROAD CO., ) ) 7 Defendant. ) 8 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 9 MUDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA JACKSONVILLE DIV-ISION . 10 GRIMSLEY, ) 11 ) Plaintiff, ) 12 ) vs . ) Civil Action 13 ) No. 83-880-Civ J -12 SEABOARD SYSTEM RAILROAD, ) 14 INC. , ) ) 15 Defendant. ) 16 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 17 CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA AT LOS ANGELES 18 WALSH , ) 19 ) 20 Plaintiff, ) ) vs. ) Civil Action 21 ) No. C V - 83-0751 (WMB ) 22 SOUTHERN PACIFIC TRANS. CO . , ) ) ) 23 Defendant. ) 24 i Sullivan Reporting Company 6 1 The deposition of PHILIP E. SCH M I D T , called j 2 by the plaintiff for examination, pursuant to 3 subpoena and notice, and pursuant to the Rules of 4 Civil Procedure for the United States District 5 Courts pertaining to the taking of depositions, 6 taken before Donna M. Urlaub, a Notary Public within 7 and for the County of DuPage and State of Illinois, 8 and a Certified Shorthand Reporter of said State, at 9 the Tr ojri^.l.i'R o o m , Hotel Continental, 505 North 10 Michigan Avenue, and the National Safety "Counci l^p*" -- 11 25th Floor, 444 North Michigan Avenue, Chicago, 12 Illinois, on the 17th day of April 1984, commencing 13 at 10:00 o'clock a.m. 14 15 AP P E A R A N C E S : 16 MR. JOHN D. ROVEN 17 - a nd - BLATT & FALES, by 18 ^ R . JOSEPH F. RICE P.O. Box 365 19 Barnwell, South Carolina 29812 appeared for the plaintiff; 20 GUNDLACH, LEE, EGGM AN N, BOYLE & ROESSLER, by 21 MR. WILLIAM P. GAVIN 22 P.O. Box 692 5000 West Main Street Belleville, Illinois 62223 23 appeared for the Illinois Central Gulf Railroad Company; 24 l Sullivan Reporting Company 7 1 APPEARANCES: (Cont'd) j 2 RAINEY, BRITTON, GIBBES & CLARKSON, P.A., by MR. DANIEL B. WHITE 3 Suite 800 First Federal Building 4 301- College Street Greenville, South Carolina 29601 5 appeared for Southern Railway Company and Norfolk & Western Railway Company; 6 DICKIE, MC CAMEY & CHILCOTE, P.C., by 7 MR. DAVID B. WHITE 3180 U.S. Steel Building 8 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15219 appeared for Consolidated Rail Corporation; 9 .iC* MR. JOHN T . VAN GESSEL - - ... IP- 10 One North Western Center ~ *' " : . Chicago, Illinois 60606, 11 appeared for the Chicago and North Western Transportation Company; 12 HUNTER, MACLEAN, EXLEY & DUNN, P.C., by 13 MR. F. SAUNDERS ALDRIDGE, III Savannah Bank Building 14 Post Office Box 9848 Savannah, Georgia 31412 15 appeared for Seaboard System Railroad; 16 GAINES, OTIS, MULLEN & CARTA, by MR. HARRY B. OTIS 17 Regency One Building 10050 Regency Circle 18 Omaha, Nebraska 68114 appeared for Union Pacific Railroad Company; 19 HUDDLESTON, BOLEN, BEATTY, PORTER & COPEN, by 20 MR. DONALD G. POWERS P.O. Box 2185 21 Huntington, West Virginia 25722 appeared for Chesapeake & Ohio Railroad 22 Company, Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Company, and Western Maryland Railroad Company; 23 24 Sullivan Reporting Company 8 1 APPEARANCES: (Cont'd) ,| 2 MR. CRAIG J. WHITNEY Southern Pacific Building 3 One Market Plaza, Suite 836 San Francisco, California 94105 4 appeared for Southern Pacific Transportation Company; 5 JONES, GREGG, CREEHAN AND GERACE, by 6 MR. FREDRIC E. ORLANSKY 1010 Grant Building 7 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15219 appeared for Celotex Corporation; 8 WILDMAN, HARROLD, ALLEN & DIXON, by 9 MR. ^EgWABTD J. MEL IA One IBM Plaza - 10 Chicago, Illinois ~ appeared for Combustion Engineering, Inc.; 11 ROSENBERG, KIRSHNER, KALEUGHER & WINIKOFF, P.A., 12 bY MR. PATRICK W. MURPHY 13 Suite 1000 Law & Finance Building 14 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15219 appeared for Eagle-Picher Industries, Inc.; 15 LAW OFFICES OF THOMAS J. KEEVERS, by ^ 16 MS. SUSAN G. CASTAGNOLI " 230 West Monroe Street 17 Chicago, Illinois 60606 appeared for Eagle-Picher Industries, Inc.; 18 LA FOLLETTE, JOHNSON, SCHROETER & DE HAAS, by 19 MR. PETER R. BING 20 320 North Vermont Avenue Los Angeles, California 90004 appeared for Flintkote Company; 21 KATTEN, MUCHIN, ZAVIS, PEARL & GALLER, by 22 MR. BARRY J. PARKER 4100 Mid-Continental Plaza 23 55 East Monroe Street Chicago, Illinois 60603 24 appeared for GAF Corporation; Sullivan Reporting Company 9 1 APPEARANCES: (Cont'd) 2 SANDS, ANDERSON, MARKS & MILLER, tP.C., by MS. CAROL L. WINGO 3 1000 Main Street Centre Richmond, Virginia 23216 4 appeared for H. K. Porter, Inc., and Southern Textile Company; 5 MEYER, DARRAGH, BUCKLER, BEBENEK & ECK, by 6 MR. JEFFREY T. MORRIS 2500 Grant Building 7 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15219 appeared for Keene Building Products; 8 SWEENEY AND RIMAN, LTD., by 9 MR. J'H^RRiT G. SAC HR ISON, JR. Suite 290 0 - - . i- 10 230 West Monroe Street ' *' ` - - Chicago, Illinois 60606 11 appeared for Keene Corporation; 12 MS. BARBARA L. ARRAS 101 South Wacker Drive 13 Chicago, Illinois 60606 appeared for United States Gypsum Company; 14 HINSHAW, CULBERTSON, MOELMANN, HOBAN & FULLER, 15 by MR. TRACY C. BEGGS 16 Suite 2700 69 West Washington Street 17 Chicago, Illinois 60602 appeared for O w e n s - C o m i n g Fiberglas Inc.; 18 SCHIFF, HARDIN & WAITE, by 19 MR. ROBERT H. RILEY 7200 Sears Tower 20 233 South Wacker Drive Chicago, Illinois 60606 21 appeared for Owens-Illinois, Inc.; 22 SCHOEN & SMITH, by MR. DAVID M. SMITH 23 Suite 1100 20 North Clark Street 24 Chicago, Illinois 60602 appeared for Pittsburgh Corning C o r p . ; Sullivan Reporting Company 1 APPEARANCES: (Cont'd) 2 CHADWELL & KAYSER, L T D .r by MS. ERICA A. MUNZEL 3 8500 Sears Tower 233 South Wacker Drive 4 Chicago, Illinois 6066 appeared for Raymark Industries, Inc.? 5 MCDERMOTT, WILL & EMERY, by 6 MS. SHERI H. MECKLENBURG 111 West Monroe Street 7 Chicago, Illinois 60603 appeared for Studebaker-Worthing t o n , Inc.? 8 WALSH, CASE, COALE, BROWN & BURKE, by 9 MR. N . BURKE 2500 Prudential Plaza _ -- ~ 10 Chicago, Illinois 60601 .v~ - appeared for John Crane, Houdaille, Inc. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Sullivan Reporting Company ., 11 1 2 Wi tness : INDEX 3 Philip E. Schmidt 4 Examination by: 5 Mr . Rice 6 M r . Daniel B. W h ite 7 Mr . Whitney 8 Mr . Murphy 9 i-fA1d r idg e 10 M r . Rice 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 EXHIBITS 18 Number 19 1 (Group) 2 20 3 4 21 5 6-20 22 21 23 24 ? Page 22 126 138 139 143 144 Page 14 23 23 30 50 72 133 Sullivan Reporting Company 1 MR. RICE: Let's go on the record for some j 2 preliminary matters. 3 This is the deposition of Philip 4 Schmidt that was noticed multi-jurisdictional. 5 Mr. Schmidt is the gentleman sitting here in front 6 of me. 7 And I'm going to ask the court 8 reporter to mark as exhibits several Notices of 9 Depositjpo.-ijr;- -gl 'm not going to mark all of them, but 10 I'm going to mark just a collection of them. The1*""-- 11 one for the State of Illinois cases, Sharp vs. 12 Illinois Central; the one for the Louisville cases, 13 Baggerly vs. Seaboard; one for the Huntington cases, 14 Stone vs. Johns-Manvi1l e , et al; and the one for the 15 South Carolina cases, In Re: South Carolina, 16 Asbestos Cases, Insulator, Shipworker, and Plant- 17 worker. 18 In addition, attached to these notices 19 is a list of the cases in which this deposition has 20 been noticed to the knowledge of the plaintiffs' 21 attorneys that noticed this deposition with the 22 exception of the Stone case and the Huegel case in 23 West Virginia that have been noticed in addition to 24 the ones listed on the attachment to the notice Sullivan Reporting Company y, v. 13 1 itself. 2 I do not -- I'm not aware of any 3 additional ones, with the exception also that there 4 was a -- in some of the notices, there was not 5 listed the Walsh vs. Southern Pacific case, which is 6 in the U.S. District Court in the Central District 7 of California at Los Angeles. That notice has been 8 sent. And as to the cases in the Western District 9 of Kent&'cJy,,, _f*Lou isv i1le Division, this case, instead 10 of being noticed in Greenwell' vs. Seaboard SystetTi'- 11 it was noticed in Baggerly vs. Seaboard Systems. 12 I believe with those exceptions, that 13 the notice is complete as to the cases this 14 deposition is being taken in. 15 I'd ask you to mark those that I just 16 read as an exhibit. 17 (Whereupon, Deposition Group 18 Exhibit No. 1, Witness Schmidt, 19 was marked for identification, 20 as of this d a t e .) 21 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: May I see a copy of your 22 subpoena? I've never seen it. 23 MR. RICE: That's just the one subpoena. 24 There's a second subpoena that was served. That's Sllllivan Ppnnrfinir nomr 1 A 1 the one that was the latest one served. There was a 2 previous one served out of the Illinois courts back 3 two months ago. 4 MR. GAVIN: Do you have a copy of the Sharp 5 notice itself? 6 MR. RICE: Yes. 7 MR. GAVIN: May I see it, please? Thank you. 8 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: You say there was another 9 subp oeh a,:?-^r . 10 MR. RICE: Yes, there was' an additional"sub pblffia- 11 served on Mr. Schmidt several weeks ago, a month ago. 12 MR. SCHMIDT: Oh, more than that. 13 MR. RICE: Yes. And that deposition was -- that 14 subpoena was for February 1st, and we changed that 15 date until today through their legal counsel. 16 MR. SCHMIDT: Back in February. 17 MR. GAVIN: The subpoena that you gave me here 18 is different from the Sharp case. It was apparently 19 noticed in both the -- 20 MR. RICE: It was noticed in both the Roser and 21 the Sharp cases. 22 MR. GAVIN: That's what I was concerned about. 23 MR. SCHMIDT: We're going to go over this 24 (indicating). This is about the same thing that was i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 covered in the other one. 2 MR. RICE: Can I have those, the isubpoenas? 3 MR. SCHMIDT: That's my copy there. 4 MR. RICE: Yes, you keep that copy. 5 MR. SCHMIDT: This (indicating) is my copy of 6 the original. That's (indicating) February 1. 7 MR. RICE: The subpoena was part of the material 8 marked. 9 M R . Rit)GE : Do you need this for the conduct 10 of the deposition? ~ *' * 11 MR. RICE: I just want to see if that's the one 12 I marked. The second subpoena that was served on 13 Mr. Schmidt has already been marked as part of the 14 deposition exhibits, and we will mark the first one 15 when we get to Mr. Schmidt's testimony. 16 Off the record. 17 (Discussion off the record.) 18 MR. BURKE: I want to make a statement on the 19 record here when you're ready. 20 I'm here representing the Crane 21 Company, and that's in the case of Kaskie vs. 22 Atchison, et al. And I received a notice last 23 Friday that a deposition was going to be taken of 24 Mr. Philip Schmidt at the Continental Hotel at 505 Sullivan Reporting Company 1 North Michigan. The notice that I received had no j ... 2 caption on it, doesn't state who the deposition is 3 going to be taken before, and I object to the 4 defects of the notice. I don't know whether or not 5 my client is involved in this case, in view of the 6 fact that there's no caption on the notice that I 7 received; however, I am attending this deposition, 8 and by my attendance, I'm not waiving any of the 9 rights. jfhagt. IT feel that I can raise on behalf of my 10 client at some later proceeding. 11 MR. RICE : And for the record -- 12 MR. B U R K E : That's all I have to say. The name 13 is John T. Burke, and my address is 2500 Prudential 14 Plaza, Chicago, Illinois. 15 MR. RICE: Mr. Burke, in response to that, as 16 far as I know, no plaintiffs' attorney here in 17 attendance represents Mr. Kaskie or is involved in 18 the Kaskie case. I have noticed this deposition, I 19 have no knowledge of the Kaskie case being noticed, 20 and therefore I don't care whether it's in that case 21 or no t . 22 But in, also, response, John Crane is 23 a defendant named in approximately 30 cases pending 24 in the United States District Court for the District Sullivan Reporting Company 11 1 of Western Pennsylvania, and you are named in those J 2 cases, and whether you're here in attendance for 3 Crane in those doesn't matter to me, either, but 4 Crane is noticed in. 5 MR. BURKE: It's not noticed, properly noticed. 6 MR. RICE: Yes, it is noticed properly in those 7 cases . 8 MR. BURKE: Well, I'm appearing in the case of 9 84 C 20_fi8-^a^tase pending before Judge Moran in the 10 United States District Court,' and I just **recent -- 11 have filed my appearance. As a matter of fact, my 12 appearance in that case was filed April 5, '84. 13 MR. RICE: All right. 14 MR. BURKE: That's John Crane, Houdaille, 15 H-o-u-d-a-i-1-1 - e , Inc. That's who I appeared for 16 in the case pending in the United States District 17 Court, 84 C 2008, 18 MR. RICE: This deposition is being taken 19 pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. 20 All cases in which this deposition is noticed, with 21 the exception of two, are federal cases. it is our 22 understanding that the case will also be taken 23 pursuant to the rules of the state courts of 24 Illinois, where the St. Clair County cases are Sullivan Reporting Company 1 pending. We do not believe there are any j 2 substantial differences in the rules; but any rights 3 that would inure to any party because of the 4 differences will be reserved. 5 Will you swear the witness, please. 6 (Wi tness s w o r n .) 7 MR. RICE: If it's agreeable with the parties, 8 we will reserve objections except as to the form of 9 the queift^an^-unti 1 the time of trial or use of the 10 deposition. All formalities 'as to the qua 1if ic a ^ * " 11 tions of the court reporter will be deemed waived 12 and the deposition will proceed. 13 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: May we have an agreement 14 that the objection of one may be the objection of 15 all unless disclaimed? 16 MR. RICE: I have no problem with that. I might 17 suggest that since we have one group of defendants 18 that can be generally classified as the railroads, 19 and one group of defendants that can be generally 20 classified as manufacturers, that possibly we would 21 need an objection from each group to stand for the 22 group. But if one person wants to speak, that's 23 okay, it doesn't matter to me. 24 MR. MURPHY: I don't know who's a railroad i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 objector and who's a manufacturer. i 2 MR. RICE: I think it's pretty simple. These 3 (indicating) are railroads, these (indicating) are 4 manufacturers. 5 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: But we're not appointing 6 one person to object on behalf of all the railroads. 7 That's not what I'm saying. 8 MR. RICE: Oh, no. 9 MRvfS^CHiriSON: Just say an objection by one is 10 an objection by all. - ?- 11 MR. BURKE: If I'm going to object, I'm going to 12 object; I don't care what anybody else does. 13 MR. RICE: Off the record. 14 (Discussion off the record.) 15 MR. RILEY: My name is Bob Riley, and I 16 represent Owens-Illinois. And I just wanted to 17 clarify something Mr. Rice said with regard to the 18 qualifications of the court reporter, and off the 19 record he clarified it as follows: That his 20 statement had to do with the qualifications of 21 this court reporter to administer oaths and take 22 testimony in the State of Illinois. And I don't 23 dispute that f a c t on behalf of Owens- 111 in o i s . 24 MR. RICE: Do you raise an objection for any Sullivan Reporting Company 1 other jurisdiction because she's not:licensed to J 2 administer oaths in other states? ! 3 MR. RILEY: I'm not going to waive that 4 objection. I don't raise the objection, but I don't 5 wa ive it . 6 MR. RICE: All right. 7 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Can we agree that an 8 objection of one is objection of all, and we don't 9 have to^d^atinguish between manufacturers and 10 railroads? ~ ~'~ 11 MR. RICE: That's fine, I don't have any problem 12 with your doing that, but there could be problems 13 down the road with that, but that's up to you all. 14 Anyone else have anything else they 15 want to put on the record before we start? 16 MS. MUNZEL: I just encourage you to speak up. 17 MR. RICE: Encourage me? 18 MS. MUNZEL: Well, because you're facing that 19 way, so you'll have to speak louder. 20 MR. SCHMIDT: You may have to use a microphone 21 y e t . 22 23 24 Sullivan .Reporting Conmanv 1 PHILIP E. SCHMIDT, 2 called as a witness herein, having bden first duly 3 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 4 EXAMINATION 5 BY 6 MR. RICE: 7 Q. State your full name and address for the 8 record, please, sir. 9 A ./ jfame is Philip Schmidt. I work for the 10 National Safety Council. We'ie located at 444 Nblfih- 11 Michigan Avenue, Chicago, Illinois. I have my card, 12 if anybody needs it, and I'll give one to the court 13 reporter so she gets it correct. 14 Pass them down the line, if you wish. 15 Q. Mr. Schmidt, are you here pursuant to a 16 subpoena that was served upon you? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. In fact, there were two subpoenas served 19 upon you. 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Let me show you a document and ask you if 22 that is one of the subpoenas served. 23 A. T h a t is c o r r e c t . 24 Q. And do you have a copy of the second Sullivan Reporting Comoanv 1 subpoena? 2 A. Yes, I do. j 3 Q. Would you please give both of those to the 4 court reporter and ask her to mark those as Exhibits 5 2 and 3 to this deposition. 6 (Whereupon, Deposition Exhibits 7 Nos. 2 and 3, Witness Schmidt, 8 were marked for identification, 9 - -T it as of this date.) 10 MR. RICE: Q. Mr. Schmidt, the court" reported'"-- 11 administered an oath earlier. Did you understand 12 that oath? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And you understand what a deposition is. 15 A. Y e s . 16 Q. And you understand the process we're about 17 to undertake. 18 A . Yes. 19 Q. Okay. Mr. Schmidt, when did you join the 20 National Safety Council? 21 A. 1965. 22 Q. And in what capacity? 23 A. Well, I'm going to say that I can't 24 remember my first title. I worked for the Farm Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Department of the Council at that time. j 2 Q. All right. Could you take vis through from 3 1965 to the current time and give us the different 4 positions you've held with the National Safety 5 Council generally? 6 MR. BURKE: Excuse for the interruption. I 7 think that the witness is going to have to raise his 8 voice. If I'm having trouble here, I'm sure the 9 people back are going to have trouble. 10 Could you read i:he last question batffcy- 11 plea s e . 12 (Record read as requested.) 13 THE WITNESS: Okay. I joined the National 14 Safety Council in 1965 in the Farm Department. My 15 primary work at that time was working with farm and 16 youth organizations in the development of safety 17 programs on the national level and the state level, 18 and limitedly on the local levels. 19 About 10 years ago, I joined the 20 Industrial Department of the Council, which is the 21 largest department within the Council. My present 22 work is primarily to serve as the staff liaison 23 p e r s o n b e t w e e n the C o u n c i l a nd t h r e e l a r g e s a f e t y 24 committees. These are committees made up of our Sullivan Rennrt.infy Hm-nnanv 1 members of the Council and several industries. J 2 In addition, I work with our technical 3 publications people; I work with problems which 4 members may bring to me; I attempt to answer 5 technical and nontechnical questions if they're 6 raised within the information we have available. 7 I assist in the development of materials for the 8 Council such as books, films, materials of that sort. 9 I workJri-jfh. ifur Congress Program, which is an annual 10 event every year, in working 'with our c omm it tee s>^*itr 11 working with speakers, in working with presentations. 12 One of my special assignments for the last couple of 13 years has been to handle most of the legal inquiries 14 which we receive within our department. In addition, 15 I work with some of the other people within the 16 Council who answer legal inquiries. We do work with 17 our legal counsel, who's Harry Rosenfield, and he's 18 located in Washington, D.C. 19 MR. RICE: Q. Mr. Schmidt, would you briefly 20 tell us what the National Safety Council is? 21 A. The National Safety Council is a 22 not-for-profit corporation. We do have a federal 23 c h a r t e r w h i c h w a s i s s u e d in 1953. The N a t i o n a l 24 Safety Council, under a slightly different name, Sullivan Reporting Company 1 began in 1913. They grew out of a desire of j 2 industry to create an organization td prevent 3 accidents to people working. 4 Since that time, we have added to the 5 scope of the Council not only people that work, but 6 people at any endeavor. So you will hear us most 7 commonly identified I guess I would say by the man 8 in the street, the National Safety Council is that 9 organizJ't^bn^fthat tells us on the 4th of July how 10 many people are going to be killed on the' hlghwa^lTl*^ 11 That is a very, very tiny piece of our work, but it 12 is part of what we do. 13 Q. How is the membership of the National 14 Safety Council made up, and who are members, and how 15 do they become members? 16 A. The Council is a membership organization. 17 Anyone, any organization, any association can be a 18 member. There are a number of classes of members, 19 and the services provided are determined in part by 20 what the member is. 21 The membership aspect of it started 22 many, many years ago, in fact, in the very, very 23 b e g i n n i n g , a f t e r t h e r e w a s a d e s i r e to h a v e a 24 continuing ongoing organization. Current membership Sullivan Reporting Companv 1 of the Council is approximately 13,000 members, of i 2 which about 9,000 of those are what we call 3 industrial or industrial-related members. 4 Q. Mr. Schmidt, does the National Safety 5 Council have an annual meeting? 6 A. We have an annual Congress with all the 7 National Safety -- it's classed in our bylaws as the 8 meeting of the National Safety Council. 9 Q. Jp Jpid.fcan you explain to us how this meeting 10 is put together, who attends the meeting,*' and a 11 little bit about what goes on? 12 A. Perhaps I should go back to the beginning. 13 The really first thing that was known was a Safety 14 Congress. This was -- the first one was held in 15 1912, brought together by people from industry. The 16 Safety Congress currently is about a four-day affair 17 currently held here in Chicago at which safety 18 practitioners and others in the field are welcome to 19 come. While intended perhaps primarily for our 20 members, it is open to the general public that 21 desires to come. 22 During the Congress, there are 23 presentations made by approximately 600 speakers at 24 about 200 different programs and events. We also k Sullivan Reporting Company 1 have an exhibit of safety equipment, from last year 2 i I believe about 300 commercial exhibitors. The 3 attendance in the last couple of years has been 4 between 13 and 14,000 people. 5 Q. Through the 20 plus years that you've been -- 6 or, about 20 years that you've been with the Safety 7 Council, have the proceedings of these Congresses 8 been recorded or gathered in some fashion? 9 A * jp -^fin4fe the beginning, there has been an - 10 attempt made to keep a record' at the presTentat ioW1T*'~~ 11 of the annual meeting, which is the formal addresses 12 by the officers of the Council and by those who 13 present programs. These records are, we call them 14 our Transactions, they've been complete -- fairly 15 complete, I'm going to say, till 1978, at which time 16 they were discontinued. 17 Q. Are you personally familiar with the 18 Transactions of the National Safety Council volumes? 19 A. Y e s . 20 Q. Where are these materials maintained? 21 A. Copies of them from 1912 through '78 are 22 maintained in the National Safety Council library. 23 Q. And that library is here in Chicago? 24 A . In Chicago . I Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Q. Have you brought with you any of the 2 i volumes from the Transactions of t h e 'National Safety 3 Council? 4 A. I .brought with me two volumes, one from 5 1940, and one from 19 -- I'll look -- 1932 6 Transactions. 7 MR. RICE: I'm going to request to go off the 8 record a minute and make an explanation. Let's go 9 off theFr-ejiC.O-fd . 10 (Discussion off the r e c o r d .) 11 MR. RICE: Let's go back on the record. 12 Q. Mr. Schmidt, at some point in time, were 13 the volumes of the Transactions of the National 14 Safety Congress microfilmed? 15 A. Y e s . 16 Q. And are you familiar with who has 17 possession of those microfilms? 18 A. Well, the National Safety Council library 19 has a copy of them for our files, but they are 20 available from two other sources. 21 Q. Would you please tell us where those are, 22 and which years are available from each source? 23 A. The years of 1912 through 1970 are 24 available from Micre, M-i-c-r-e, Cord Sales k Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Corporation, 155 Eisenhower Lane North, Lombard, 2 j Illinois 60148 , phone number 312-4 95 -f97 90 . 3 From the years of 1974 through '78, 4 which in 1978 Transactions were discontinued as a 5 publication, those years are available from 6 University Microfilm International, 300 North Zeeb 7 Road, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48106. Phone number is 8 313-761-4700. 9 .if*-S' * The years of 1971 through '74 are, to 10 the best of our knowledge, are not ava i1d'ble: on 11 microfilm from anyone. 12 Q. This document that you've just read from is 13 a document you brought with you this morning? 14 A. Yes, I brought that with me this morning. 15 Q. And that's just the names and addresses of 16 the companies? 17 A. C o r r e c t . 18 MR. RICE: Let's just mark that as an exhibit, 19 please, m a 'a m . 20 (Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 21 No. 4, Witness Schmidt, was 22 marked for identification, as of 23 this date .) 24 MR. RICE: Q. Mr. Schmidt, Exhibit No. 4 is the Sullivan Reporting Company 1 list of the names and addresses of the persons who 2 microfilm can be obtained from. I 3 A . Correct. 4 Q. Okay. Mr. Schmidt, were copies of these 5 Transactions furnished to the membership of the 6 Council at any point in time? 7 A. Yes. 8 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Object to the form of the 9 quest 10 MR. RICE: State your objection, please". 11 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Leading. 12 MR. RICE: Q. Were the members of the National 13 Safety Council provided the entire volumes? 14 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Object to the form of the 15 question. Calls for matters outside of the 16 knowledge of this witness. 17 MR. RICE: Q. Go ahead and answer it, 18 Mr . S c h m i d t . 19 A. Restate your question again. 20 Q. Did the National Safety Council provide its 21 members with copies of the Transactions? 22 MR. WHITNEY: I'm going to object insofar as the 23 w o r d " p r o v i d e . " I t h i n k t h e w o r d " p r o v i d e " h e r e h a s 24 an inherent vagueness in it that I would object to. t Sullivan Reporting Company 1 MR. RICE: I'll correct your vagueness. i 2 MR. GAVIN: My name is William Gdvin, and I 3 think that inherent vagueness is that it assumes 4 that the members received them. That's my objection. 5 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: I would also object that 6 it's leading and calls for matters beyond the -- the 7 question is over broad, and as stated, calls for 8 matters beyond the competence of this witness or 9 outside?'o-0T hi's personal knowledge. 10 MR. RICE: Q. Mr. Schmidt:, you've been "w ith^'THh- 11 National Safety Council since 1965. From that time 12 forward, do you know whether or not copies of these 13 materials have been sent to or any way made 14 available to the members of the National Safety 15 Council? 16 A. Yes . 17 Q. Have they? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. All right. Prior to 1965, due to your 20 20 years with the National Safety Council, are you 21 aware of whether or not the Transactions of the 22 National Safety Council prior to 1965 were provided 23 to or a n y w a y m a d e a v a i l a b l e to the m e m b e r s ? 24 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Can we reiterate our i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 previous objections at this point? j 2 MR. RICE: Your objections stand1. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 MR. RICE: Q. And such copies were -- how were 5 such copies made available to the members? 6 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Same objections as 7 previously made. 8 MR. RICE: Q. Go ahead. 9 A, .Jf Jgo .The best of my knowledge, they were made 10 in printed form and mailed to' them after "the 11 Congress. 12 Q. Would that include the entire volume, the 13 entire bound volume? 14 MR. ALDRIDGE: We have a standing objection on 15 this line of questioning. 16 MR. RICE: No, no standing objection. 17 THE WITNESS: I do not know -- 18 MR. ALDRIDGE: Same objection. 19 THE WITNESS: -- if the bound volumes were or 20 not. 21 MR. RICE: Q. But the printed materials -- 22 A. Printed materials would be. 23 MR. GAVIN: I object to the l e a d i n g form of the 24 question. i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 MR. RICE: Q. Let's look at the 1932 volume j 2 that you brought with you, please, sir. 3 MR. RILEY: Off the record. 4 (Discussion off the record.) 5 MR. RICE: Q. Mr. Schmidt, you're familiar with 6 these books? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q. Looking at the foreword, the foreword in 9 the boo.f .^effts to a policy of the National Safety 10 Council concerning mailing or~ supplying the' members*1- 11 with copies of the materials. 12 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Object to the form of the 13 question. Leading. 14 MR . RICE: T h a t 's fine. 15 Q. Are you and I at the same place in the 16 foreword? 17 A. (No response .) 18 Q. Look at the f o r e w o r d . 19 A. I 'm looking at it. 20 Q. Okay . Does the foreword refer to binding 21 these volumes? 22 A. Do you mean bind ing into a hard cover ? 23 Q. Or in any way supplying them or making them 24 available to members. 1 Sullivan Reporting Company 1 A Yes 2 Q. Could you tell us what the foreword says on 3 that? 4 A. One paragraph -- 5 MR. GAVIN: Excuse me. I'm going to object to 6 the question. I don't think you've laid a proper 7 foundation for introduction as to what this book 8 says . 9 MR Q. Okay. Go ahead and answer the 10 question. ~ ^ 11 A. Paragraph 2 of the foreword says that 12 Volume 1 is distributed automatically to all 13 industrial members of the Council. Volume 2 is sent 14 to members who are believed to be interested chiefly 15 in the sessions it contains; however, other members 16 of the Council may obtain Volume 2 upon request. 17 I'd like to read one additional 18 paragraph here also, because I think it clarifies 19 some questions that may come later. 20 "The Transactions are a condensed 21 record of the proceedings of the Congress. The 22 papers and addresses and many of the discussions 23 have been edited to delete extemporaneous matter, 24 abbreviate the less important positions, and i Sullivan Reporting Company 35 1 emphasize those parts of particular usefulness in j 2 promoting effective safety organization and other 3 accident prevention measures. The volumes are 4 therefore somewhat abridged versions, compact, 5 practical, and of particular value to the student, 6 the supervisor, and the executive in achieving more 7 thorough accident prevention success. The original 8 manuscripts are available for additional reference, 9 if desiJ'e-^.. |'rom the files of the National Safety 10 Council." - *' 1 : ,.****'-- 11 I would have to say today that none of 12 these that we are talking about would be available, 13 none of the originals would be. 14 Q. All right. Mr. Schmidt, have these volumes 15 been available in the National Safety Council 16 library for the membership to look at at any point 17 in time -- 18 A. Y e s . 19 Q. -- since the time they were -- 20 A. Put on the shelf. 21 Q. -- put on the shelf? 22 A. Yes . 23 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE! Object to the question. 24 MR. ALDRIDGE: I 'll -- Sullivan Reporting Company 1 MR. RICE: Go ahead and state your objection. j 2 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Object to tihe form of the 3 question. Beyond the competency of the witness, 4 beyond his personal knowledge. 5 MR. RICE: Mr. Schmidt, you've got to let me ask 6 the questions before you answer them, okay? 7 Q. When you came in 1965, and from that time 8 forward, have these volumes been available for 9 people jto-^flo-ifk at, members to come into the library 10 and look at? ~ 11 A . Yes. 12 Q. To your knowledge, through your experience 13 with the National Safety Council or any other source 14 of knowledge -- you can identify the source for us, 15 if you would -- have these been available since 16 prior to 1965? 17 A. To the best of my knowledge. 18 MR. ALDRIDGE: I'm sorry -- 19 MR. RICE: Q. And are you familiar with the 20 workings of the library -- 21 MR. ALDRIDGE: Objection to that question again 22 because it is, once again, calling for matters 23 b e y o n d the c o m p e t e n c y of t h i s w i t n e s s to answer. 24 You stated no grounds, also, for his answer. t Sullivan Reporting Company 1 MR. RICE: Q. Mr. Schmidt, you need to tell us 2 why it's your understanding that these books have 3 been made available prior to 1965. 4 A. Well, the library of the Council has been 5 open to the general public, to the members, to 6 students which come, to anyone doing research. The 7 policies of the library, to the best of my knowledge, 8 have not changed in the 20 years that I have been 9 there . ^ . 10 Q. Were those policies 'in effect when :you came 11 in in 1965? 12 A . Yes . 13 Q. And did those policies allow or make 14 available these books? 15 A . Yes. 16 Q. Mr. Schmidt, in addition to the Congresses, 17 does the National Safety Council send any 18 publications out to its members? 19 A. The National Safety Council supplies many 20 publications to members. 21 Q. What is the National Safety News? 22 A. The National Safety News is a magazine 23 published monthly by the National Safety Council. 24 Q. Could you tell us how it is circulated? Sullivan Reporting Company 1 A. It is available to -- let me start over. 2 It is available on subscription to 3 anyone. It is furnished as part of services on 4 certain membership packages, particularly to the 5 industrial member. 6 Q. Do all industrial members get a copy of the 7 National Safety News on a monthly basis? 8 MR. GAVIN: I object to the question. Again it 9 assumes_?':tifa.tjfthe members actually receive it, and 10 your question should be directed toward wtat t h e w ^ - 11 Council does. 12 MR. RICE: Q. Does the Council -- 13 MR. ALDRIDGE: I further object to your question 14 as not limited in time and scope. 15 MR. RICE: Q. To your knowledge, Mr. Schmidt, 16 does the Council mail or send to the members, all 17 industrial members a copy of the National Safety 18 News on a monthly basis? 19 A. Y e s . 20 Q. Do you know how long that procedure has 21 been -- 22 A . No . 23 Q. -- taking place? 24 What years do you have knowledge of? t Sullivan Reporting Company 1 A. The current membership package offered to i 2 industrial members does provide that as one of the 3 services. It has been that way in the 20 years, 4 approximately, that I have been there. 5 Q. Was it that way when you came in 1965? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Are you familiar with the -- let me restate 8 that question. 9 ''T Are there bound volumes of _this 10 monthly magazine available by the National Safety 11 Council? 12 A. In our library. 13 Q. Are you familiar with how far back those go? 14 A. I would assume they go back to the 15 beginning of the magazine. 16 Q. Do you know of your own knowledge? 17 A. I did not research that question originally . 18 for you. 19 Q. All right. Let's go on back to the 20 Congress. Can you explain to us briefly how the 21 volumes are set up, Volume 1, Volume 2, and how the 22 Transactions are set up? 23 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Object to the form of the 24 question. Over broad. Sullivan Reporting Company 1 MR. RICE: Q. Go ahead and answer the question. j 2 A. I object, too, because there have been many 3 changes in it, and you have not given me a point in 4 time, unfortunately. 5 Q. Well, let's talk about the '30s and '40s. 6 A. I was not there. I don't want to answer 7 that for you. 8 Q. Are you familiar with the books, 9 Mr. Sch^n i^ t,?^- 10 A. Yes. - - . 11 Q. Could I explain for me from your 12 familiarity with the books how they are set up? 13 A. In general, in the period of time in the 14 '30s and '40s, the industrial related, which is a 15 broad term, was one volume, the non-industrial area 16 was put into another volume. That, in very simple 17 terms, is what was done at that point. But there 18 were changes made in it. 19 Q. Do you know when the changes were made? 20 A. No, I do not. 21 Q. Okay. Could you tell us what kind of 22 changes you're familiar with that have been made? 23 A. The primary change -- I shouldn't call it 24 c h a n g e . One of the ways that it was put together t Sullivan Reporting Company 41 1 was that the -- a major or a couple of major J 2 industrial sections were put together' as a volume. 3 These volumes were then printed, they were available 4 separately if you desired, or they could be 5 purchased in toto. These were made available to 6 members or to non-members, whoever would like to get 7 them. 8 Q. Do you know approximately when that 9 10 11 Q. Has it been since your time with the 12 National Safety Council? 13 A. When I started, they were available in 14 separate volumes. 15 Q. Okay. Mr. Schmidt, as part of the subpoena 16 that was served upon you, you were provided with a 17 list of companies. Do you recall that? 18 A. Y e s . 19 Q. At my request, have you reviewed the 20 records of the National Safety Council to determine 21 if any of those companies were ever a member of the 22 National Safety Council? 23 A. Well, as I explained in my response to this, 24 we did not determine whether a company was ever a Sullivan Reporting Company 42 1 member unless they are presently members. i 2 Q. Would you explain that for ds, please? 3 A. The only records available for membership 4 in the Council is what is currently available. And 5 in answer to the subpoena, I checked the computer 6 printout which I used, dated March 6th of 1984, that 7 lists those companies currently a member. If a 8 company or an organization ceased membership and 9 they we^e-^hoir-membership at that date, I would have 10 no way of determining. ' : <**'-'- 11 Q. As I understand it, if they were a member 12 currently, you would have the date they originally 13 joined -- 14 A. That is correct. 15 Q. -- and their present membership. 16 A. I would have their continuous membership 17 from date of joining to the present. If there were 18 gaps within that time frame, I only picked out the 19 last time they rejoined. 20 Q. All right. By way of example, if a company 21 was a member from 1930 to 1950, then dropped out 22 from '50 to '60, and rejoined in 1960 and was 23 currently a member, your records would reflect what? 24 A. 1960. Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Q. 1960. So you wouldn't have any record of i 2 their earlier membership. 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. All right. So if a company is listed on 5 your records as being a member now, and it has a 6 date of original -- or, of -- 7 A. Last j o i n i n g . 8 Q. -- last joining, we know they've been a 9 member <fbn^t.iifUously since that time. 10 A. That's correct. *' " : <*** 11 Q. All right. Let's start at the top of the 12 page, please, sir. And this is Appendix A to the 13 Exhibit 1 that was marked. 14 Let's start on the left-hand side 15 where it says, "Railroad Companies." 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And if you would, please tell me what 18 information your records reflect concerning 19 membership of each of the companies so listed. 20 MR. ALDRIDGE: I -- 21 MR. GAVIN: Excuse me. I'm going to object to 22 what his records show. I don't believe you've 23 stated an adequate foundation for the introduction 24 of this hearsay evidence. That's all. Sullivan Reporting Company 1 MR. RICE: That's fine. j 2 Q. You can answer the question.' 3 A. The first one is Illinois Central Gulf 4 Railroad Company. Our records indicate they joined 5 in 1916. 6 I'm going to skip the next one because 7 of some joining, and I'll come back to it. 8 Q. The next one you're skipping right now is 9 the Chejru-gfeaJre & Ohio Railroad Company? 10 A. Is the Chesapeake & "Ohio Railroad Compah^pl ' 11 Q. All right. The Norfolk & Western Railroad 12 Company? 13 A. 1980. 14 The Southern Railroad Company, 1940. 15 Burlington Northern Railroad Company, 16 1937 . 17 Chicago & North Western Railroad 18 Company, 1981. 19 Seaboard Systems Railroad Company, 20 Incorporated, 1918. 21 I find no record for Louisville & 22 Nashville Railroad Company; Penn Central 23 T r a n s p o r t a t i o n C o m p a n y . 24 Consolidated Rail Corporation, 1980. t Sullivan Reporting Company 1 National Railroad Passenger 2 Corporation (Amtrak), 1973. j 3 I find no record for the Reading 4 Corporat ion. 5 Baltimore & Ohio I'll come back to in 6 a minute. 7 Denver and Rio Grande Railroad Company, 8 1944. 9 f ^ Western Maryland Railroad Company I'll 10 come back to. - <#***'-- 11 Union Pacific Railroad Company, 1913. 12 Missouri Pacific Railroad Company, 13 1918 . 14 Southern Pacific Transportation 15 Company, 1943. 16 Those three that I skipped, Chesapeake 17 & Ohio Railroad Company, Baltimore & Ohio Railroad 18 Company, Western Maryland Railroad Company are now 19 listed in our membership under the Chessie System, 20 and the date given there is 1979. 21 Q. In addition to the railroad companies, I 22 asked you to look at a group of companies I 23 classified as non-railroad companies. Were you able 24 to check your records concerning membership of those Sullivan Reporting Company 1 companies? 2 A . Yes . 3 MR. ORLANSKY: My name is Fred Orlansky. We'd 4 like to interpose the same objections to the non 5 railroad companies as the railroads had to the 6 naming of their companies. 7 MR. RICE: All right. 8 Q. Go ahead and tell us what your records 9 ref lec t_FOjr .tffat , please, sir. 10 A. I'm going to state a's a preface "of* t.his^lfS-- 11 took the names as given here, with one correction 12 which was given. Thus, if any of these companies, 13 for reasons that we do not know, are part of another 14 corporation, or have a different name than given 15 here, then I would not find it unless that name is 16 given to me, which it wasn't. And I'm going to go 17 through them. 18 AS&C, Incorporated, we have no record 19 o n . 20 Q. That's AC &S ? 21 A. Excuse me, AC&S, Incorporated. 22 Armstrong World Industries, 1944. 23 Benjamin Foster Company, no record. 24 Canadian -- Sullivan Reporting Company 4 7 1 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: 2 down just a little bit? Can I ask that you slow J 3 THE WITNESS: All right. 4 Benjamin Foster Company, no record. 5 Canadian Johns-Manv i 11e , no record. 6 The Manville Corporation, 1928. 7 Carey Canada, no record. 8 Celotex Corporation, no record. 9 ^ * Combustion Engineering, Incorporated, 10 1916. - .*" .****'--' 11 Covil Corporation, no record. 12 Eagle-Picher, Incorporated, 1949. 13 Fiberboard Corporation, no record. 14 Empire-Ace Company, no record. 15 Forty-Eight Insulations, Incorporated, 16 no record. 17 The next one is where there was a 18 correction made for us. It originally said T A F . 19 The correct letters are GAF Corporation, 1940. 20 Garlock, Incorporated, 1922. 21 H. K. Porter, Incorporated, no record. 22 J. R. Deans Company, no record. 23 The Keene Corporation, 1971. 24 Lake Asbestos, no record. Sullivan Reporting Company 1 National Gypsum Corporation, 1926. I 2 North Brothers, Incorporated, no 3 record . 4 Owens Corning Fiberglas, Incorporated, 5 1943 . 6 Owens-Illinois, Incorporated, 1976. 7 Pittsburgh Corning, Incorporated, 1981. 8 Raymark, Incorporated, 1936. 9 . J? 10 record . Rockwool Manufacturing Company, no 11 Standard Asbestos Company, no record. 12 Turner Newall, Limited, no record. 13 .S. Mineral Company, no record. 14 Vinasco Corporation, no record. 15 Southern Textile Company, no record. 16 Turner Asbestos Fibers, Limited, no 17 record . 18 Bell Asbestos Mines, no record. 19 Asbestos Corporation, Limited, 1952. 20 Nicolet, Incorporated, no record. 21 Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, 22 1914 . 23 I do have two copies of these that I 24 just read from. Sullivan Reporting Company 1 MR. RICE: 2 please. All right. Let's mark this Exhibit 5, j 3 (Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 4 No. 5, Witness Schmidt, 5 was marked for identification, 6 as of this d a t e .) 7 MR. RICE: I'm requesting that all exhibits be 8 attached to the original and the original copy. 9 M R .jfG^VI-?f: Excuse me, Mr. Rice. My objection . T " ... 10 to hxs testimony of improper foundation I would T.'ik'e 11 to reiterate to the Deposition Exhibit No. 5. 12 MR. RICE: Q. Mr. Schmidt, at my request, did 13 you also check the company United States Gypsum? 14 A. You made that request yesterday, and I did 15 look this morning. Our record indicates that they 16 became members in 1914. 17 Q. This record that you're referring to, is 18 this a computer printout? 19 A. This was a computer printout which is made 20 available to staff people of the Council for 21 whatever need we may have. 22 Q. And is a copy of that computer printout 23 a v a i l a b l e ? Could it b e m a d e a v a i l a b l e ? 24 A. I would assume it could be made available. Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Now, let me add to it, the one that I 2 used may not be available anymore. j 3 Q. But the -- 4 A. A current one could be. 5 I don't believe that we could 6 reconstruct the March 6th record that I used because 7 we do not retain it that way. 8 Q. But the procedure which you would go 9 t h r o u g h y t ^ determine years of membership would be 10 the same for any -- ~ *' " ; . >0^'-- 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- week. 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. Is this record, this computer printout, is 15 it something that you get on a regular basis? 16 A. It's normally provided to staff 17 approximately monthly. 18 Q. And is it the kind of material that you use 19 in a daily fashion to determine membership? 20 A. Yes, and other factors. 21 Q. If anyone wanted to know the question as to 22 whether another company was a member of the National 23 Safety Council, could they provide you -- or, 24 request to provide that information? k Sullivan Reporting Company Q. 1 A By subpoena only. j 2 Is it the policy of the Natrona! Safety 3 Council to respond to no inquiries of that nature 4 except under legal process? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Mr. Schmidt, showing you what's been marked 7 as Exhibit No. 3, which is a subpoena issued out of 8 the State of Illinois Circuit Court in St. Clair 9 County ,_?;r-^ad-rng, the request is for "mailing list 10 indicating all railroads and 'railroad organlza t iT61rs " 11 who received the general Volume No. 1 of the annual 12 safety congresses of the National Safety Council for 13 the years 1932 through 1942, inclusive, and 1961." 14 It also requests "the membership list of all 15 railroad or railroad affiliated organizations who 16 were members of the National Safety Council for the 17 years 1930 through 1982." 18 Would you tell us what procedure you 19 went through to comply with that subpoena? 20 MR. GAVIN: Again, Mr. Rice, I'd object to the 21 question because of the word "received." it assumes 22 that these things were received. 23 MR. RICE: I just asked him what he did to 24 c o m p l y w i t h the s u b p o e n a . i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 MR. ALDRIDGE: I would like to interpose another 2 objection. i F. Saunders Aldridge on behalf of the 3 Seaboard System. 4 With respect to any documents other 5 than the Transactions, of which you advised me prior 6 to this deposition, my subpoena -- or, excuse me, my 7 Notice of Deposition did not contain any list of 8 documents, and to the extent that we are reviewing 9 any docuiti^ntif- which were not so listed, I believe 10 that it may well be in violation of Ru 1e`*'3O'Y 11 perhaps nonresponsive to outstanding requests for 12 production of documents or interrogatories. 13 MR. RICE: In response to Mr. Aldridge, just for 14 the record, so it will be clear at this point, this 15 deposition was subject of a discussion with Judge 16 Ballentine (phonetic) at the pretrial conference 17 held, at which time it was discussed what would be 18 done at this deposition. Mr. Aldridge was not 19 present, but his partner Mr. Jordan was, and that 20 record can stand for itself and everybody can 21 reserve all objections. 22 MR. ALDRIDGE: Excuse me, Mr. Rice. Were you 23 suggesting that you itemized the documents that 24 would be reviewed at that time? k Sullivan Reporting Company 1 MR. RICE: No, but 2 MR. ALDRIDGE: Just to -- 3 MR. RICE: -- at that time it was discussed that 4 we were coming up looking for Transactions, and not 5 only new documents, but if there were other 6 documents, we did certainly request them and we did 7 have them under subpoena. 8 MR. ALDRIDGE: Okay. 9 M R .?'D^N IJfL B. WHITE: On behalf of all railroads, 10 however, I would like to reiterate Mr. A I'dr1dg e -- 11 objection, which, as far as I know, no other 12 railroads were present at any hearing where any 13 discussion was made concerning this notice. 14 MR. RICE: In response to that, Mr. White had 15 ample opportunity himself, had he himself reviewed 16 the documents of the National Safety Council under a 17 previous subpoena, and whether there are other 18 documents up there that they want to look at, more 19 power to them, they can look at them. 20 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: May I just clarify this. 21 We are getting into making lists and that sort of 22 thing. Those sorts of materials were not subject to 23 subpoenas that we were here on last summer, and as 24 far as that's concerned, Mr. Rice is incorrect. Sullivan Reporting Company 5 4 1 MR. ALDRIDGE: Just one additional clarification. 2 I think that what we're getting to i.s!J th,at we are 3 reserving, to the extent of these other documents, 4 the possibility of further cross-examination of this 5 deponent, should we deem that necessary. 6 MR. RICE: Q. Mr. Schmidt, do you remember what 7 my question was? 8 A. I can give you an answer. It may not reply 9 total 1y ;>tQf iITi I would like to just address the 10 issue a little bit because I can c1 ar ify `*a Coup 1 * ^ f- 11 things for you. 12 MR. ALDRIDGE: Sir, can you just answer his 13 question first? 14 MR. RICE: Q. You have to answer my question 15 first. 16 A. Well, I don't know whether I'm addressing 17 it or not. 18 Q. Tell me what you did to comply with that 19 subpoena when it was served upon you. 20 A. In order to set the stage, I've got to make 21 a couple of additional statements. First of all, 22 the business records of the Council are only kept 23 for two years and the current year, so the business 24 files indicating what was sent to members, what was t Sullivan Reporting Company 1 purchased by members or purchased by others are only j 2 currently available back two complete' years plus the 3 current year. So to respond to this as to what was 4 sent to members back in the '30s and '40s, there is 5 no way that the Council, through our business 6 records, can determine that information. 7 Q. How about the membership? 8 A. The membership, I've reiterated to you 9 ear 1 ierjf J^isifs are not maintained of previous years. 10 The only current list we have' is the list' we- a r e ^ - 11 currently using. 12 Q. And that's the list that you use in a daily 13 fashion for the National Safety Council? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Okay. Thanks, sir. 16 Are there any ways to determine 17 through the National Safety Council the gaps in time 18 that you referred to as to when someone may have not 19 been a member? 20 MR. ALDRIDGE: I object to the form of the 21 question. I find the question to be very confusing, 22 and I'm not sure the deponent referred to gaps in 23 t ime. 24 MR. RICE: Q. Didn't you refer to gaps in Sullivan Reporting Company 1 membership time? j 2 A. When I was discussing membership, I talked 3 about the possibility if somebody is a member from 4 1910 to 1920, he quit for 10 years, he rejoined. 5 Are you talking about this gap? 6 Q. Yes, sir. If there's a gap in membership, 7 continuous membership, is there any way, through the 8 National Safety Council, to determine if a gap 9 ex is ted.f' ^hd-i'i f so, when it existed? 10 A. There is no way of d'etermining gaps: whiiWff'*"- 11 may have existed back in the beginning of time. It 12 is possible within the last few years, because we 13 may have retained some of these records for the 14 purpose of resoliciting a member who may have 15 dropped out in the last couple of years. Where 16 those records would be right now, I don't know. 17 Q. You were asked in the second subpoena that 18 was served, again out of St. Clair County, Illinois, 19 "to produce to plaintiff's attorney certain 20 instruments of writing purporting to be or indicate 21 the membership history of the corporations, 22 companies, or railroads listed on the attached sheet 23 which is incorporated as Appendix A," which is the 24 sheet we just discussed with the names. I Sullivan Reporting Company 1 A . Ye s . j 2 Q. Would you tell us what documents you have 3 to report or provide to us as a result of that 4 subpoena? 5 A. I did not bring any supporting documents, 6 except I reviewed our computer printout of members 7 based on names you supplied to us, Appendix A. 8 Q. Would you make available to this court 9 report er cifpy of that computer printout, please, 10 sir, or a computer printout o~f the current -- 11 A. I can make available a current printout. 12 Q. I would ask that that be done, and that the 13 printout be affixed to the original deposition -- 14 A. I think that -- 15 Q. Is this printout big, or little? 16 A. Big. Massive. 13,000 names. 17 MR. MORRIS: Jeff Morris for Keene. 18 I would object to the attaching of 19 that exhibit to this deposition because it has no 20 relationship to this man's testimony, preparing his 21 testimony on the basis of a printout that's dated 22 sometime in March, which, by his own testimony, is 23 no l o n g e r a v a i l a b l e . 24 MR. RICE: His own testimony is he doesn't know Sullivan Reporting Company 1 if it's available or not 2 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: And I would? object, too. 3 The computer is obviously hearsay. 4 MR. RICE: You want the printout -- you want the 5 computer? 6 Q. Would you make a copy -- these become -- as 7 I understand it, Mr. Schmidt, at the end of a -- the 8 current month, a new printout will come out and last 9 month Vs.fpjsjfintrout is no longer of use to you for your 10 purposes in the National Safety Council. *' ": 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. So if you gave us a copy of March or April's 13 printout when you finished your use of it, it would 14 be no problem. 15 A. I said earlier that I would. I'm going to 16 retract that because I think we need to consult 17 would our counsel on this, the fact that I don't 18 think that you need all of this information. 19 Q. That's fine. You're talking Mr. Rosenfield? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. All right. We'll work that out. 22 I won't mark it as an exhibit, I'll 23 just get a copy of it. 24 Mr. Schmidt, are these volumes and Sullivan Reporting Company 5 9 1 Transactions of the National Safety Council 2 . i presently available at 444 North Michigan Avenue in 3 Chicago? 4 A. Y e s . 5 Q. And are they there today? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And are -- these volumes, do they run 8 continuously from some point in time to -- can you 9 tell me/t^e, Jfates on which they run? 10 A. To the best of my knowledge, they run fli^om"' 11 1912 to 1978. 12 Q. All right. Mr. Schmidt, to your knowledge, 13 has any of the companies that we went over in 14 Exhibit A to the subpoena ever made inquiry of the 15 National Safety Council concerning what information 16 the Council had available on asbestos and asbestos- 17 related diseases? 18 MR. RILEY: Objection to the form of the 19 question. 20 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Object to the form of the 21 question. Lacks foundation. 22 MR. BURKE: May it please the Court, at this 23 time -- of course, I realize this is a deposition -- 24 may I have that question read back. Sullivan Reporting Company 1 (Record read as requested.) 2 J ` MR. ALDRIDGE: I would impose another objection 3 as beyond the scope of the notice. 4 MR. GAVIN: Bill Gavin. 5 It's not limited in time. 6 MR. ALDRIDGE: F. Saunders Aldridge again. 7 This notice is before authentication, 8 and I think it makes some mention of membership only. 9 M R . ;:'R-^CE f*' Anyone want to say anything else? 10 (No response.) -$f***--- 11 MR. RICE: Q. Answer the question, Mr. Schmidt. 12 A. To the best of my knowledge, I really do 13 not know because, very simply, I don't handle all 14 inquiries to the Council, which are extremely 15 voluminous, nor do we retain those records. 16 Q. So to your knowledge, you don't have any -- 17 no one has done that, to your knowledge. 18 MR. RILEY: Same objection. 19 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Objection -- 20 MR. GAVIN: Objection. That's a misstatement of 21 his statement. 22 MR. D A N I E L B. W H I T E : O b j e c t i o n . A r g u m e n t a t i v e . 23 MR. GAVIN: And my objection was it's a 24 misrepresentation of what he just said. i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 THE WITNESS: Let's go back to what I said. 2 J I'd like to hear what I said earlierJ 3 MR. RICE: Q. Mr. Schmidt, the question, very 4 simply 5 A . No, I want to go back -- I want to hear 6 what I said earlier. 7 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Please read the witness' 8 previous answer. 9 -".i? ' 'T (Record read as requested.) 10 MR. RICE: Q. And my question to you, 11 Mr. Schmidt, which is what I want answered, is do 12 you have any knowledge as to whether any of these 13 companies ever inquired of the National Safety 14 Council about asbestos or asbestos disease? 15 MR. RILEY: Same objection. 16 MR. ALDRIDGE: Same objection. 17 MR. RILEY: Form of the question. 18 MR. ALDRIDGE: Same objections as to the 19 previous question. 20 THE WITNESS: My previous statement will have to 21 stand in part. There have been inquiries made to us 22 for information. Most of the -- I don't know how to 23 answer this, because it's difficult. 24 Let me go back to -- I don't know i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 which exhibit it is. The exhibit that you gave us -- 2 i or, requested in February, for example, was a 3 request for information. It was brought to the 4 Council's attention somewheres in that, and maybe 5 even previous, that the subject area being sought 6 was on asbestos. Now, the subpoena itself does not 7 specifically identify that specific information. 8 Going back even further, it is 9 poss ibljlv-^aniir* I -- it's possible that I handled 10 inquiries from this kind of baseline of i n f rma 11 previous to this. It is not a situation -- the 12 whole area is, very simply, we don't keep a total 13 tab of what everybody asks. I could have -- you 14 know, I could have answered an inquiry, for example, 15 on the phone to someone, and I have no record of it; 16 he called today, I responded yesterday, and it's 17 gone. 18 MR. RICE: Q. Do you have any present 19 recollection of ever having such a conversation with 20 any of the companies or representatives of the 21 companies that are on Appendix A? 22 MR. RILEY: Object to the form of the question. 23 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Object to the form of the 24 question. I Sullivan Reporting Company 1 THE WITNESS: . . 2 youasitis. I cannot answer that question for i 3 MR. RICE: Q. Mr. Schmidt, either you have a 4 recollection, or you don't have a recollection. It 5 doesn't matter which one, I just want to know which 6 one. 7 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Object to the form of the 8 question. Argumentative. 9 T HE jj-W NEfSS : I gave my statement earlier. I 10 prefer to let that stand. - ?..&**'-- 11 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Argumentative. The 12 question has been asked and answered. 13 MR. RICE: Q. Mr. Schmidt, have you ever talked 14 to Mr. White about asbestos? 15 A. Mr. White, if I recall, was in our office 16 some time ago -- 17 MR. DAVID B. WHITE: Excuse me. I'd like a 18 clarification as to which Mr. White. 19 THE WITNESS: Point well made. 20 MR. RICE: Q. Mr. Danny White. 21 A. Mr. White was in our office, if I recall, 22 last year sometime. 23 Q. At that time, these books were made 24 available? Sullivan Reporting Company 1 A. He worked with our librarian. They could j 2 have been made available to him at that time. 3 Q. Have you ever talked with Mr. Aldridge? 4 A. I've talked with him on the phone. 5 Q. Do you recall ever talking with anyone else 6 by name? 7 A. Well, not hearing anybody's name here in 8 addition, I couldn't answer that question. 9 MR. yD^NI|TL B. WHITE: May I say on the record 10 that I was in Mr. -- in the library of the Na t ion'3'`i-- 11 Safety Council pursuant to a discovery deposition 12 notice served by Mr. Rice in a case pending in South 13 Carolina, and Mr. John Roven was also present. 14 MR. RICE: That's correct. No question about it. 15 Q. Since that time, has anyone from Norfolk & 16 Western Railroad ever inquired of the National 17 Safety Council about information they had on 18 diseases caused by asbestos? 19 A. I can't answer that question. 20 Q. Do you have any knowledge of anyone from 21 the Norfolk & Western ever making inquiry since that 22 time? 23 A. That was not covered in the original 24 subpoena. I can't answer it. i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Q. Well, sir, I'm asking you knowledge. Your 2 knowledge is covered by the subpoena. 3 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Object to the form of the 4 question. It's been asked and answered. 5 MR. ALDRIDGE: It's also beyond the scope of 6 this deposition. 7 THE WITNESS: That's right. 8 MR. RICE: Well, Mr. Aldridge, the deposition 9 was n o t $ t ^ , jfor all purposes under the federal rules. -- ' . ^ ... 10 I'm not sure what your definition of the "scope - 11 deposition is under federal rules, but I'll let that 12 stand. I don't understand your objection at all 13 saying it's not within the scope of the deposition. 14 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Just as clarification on 15 the record at this point, the deposition notice 16 states, in part, "The purpose of this deposition is 17 to have Mr. Schmidt produce annals of the National 18 Safety Council and other publications present in the 19 National Safety Council library and to authenticate 20 the same materials. The plaintiff further intends 21 to inquire of the witness any knowledge he has 22 concerning the membership of the National Safety 23 Council." 24 MR. RICE: That's right. And I want to know Sullivan ReDortiner C n m n a n v 1 what knowledge he has concerning the membership, 2 which Mr. Aldridge's client is a member. I want to 3 know what knowledge he has. 4 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE; I simply wanted to read 5 that on the record at this point, that statement on 6 the record. 7 MR. RICE; The notice is a part of the record. 8 It's attached. 9 Q ..' ijr*.fSchmid t , have you reviewed the records 10 of the National Safety Council in any w a y to 11 determine what other materials may be available from 12 the National Safety Council that deal with asbestos 13 or asbestos-related disease? 14 A. In the scope of the two which were 15 identified here, that was not specifically inquired, 16 so we d idn't , n o . 17 Q. You did not do that? 18 A. W e d i d n o t d o t h a t . 19 MR. RICE; At this time, it's my intentions to 20 go to the National Safety Council and identify these 21 volumes on the record. I would propose that we 22 finish cross-examination here, and then move over 23 t h e r e , b u t I ' m o p e n to a n y s u g g e s t i o n . I a n y b o d y 24 has an objection to that, I'll go over there and Snllnrcin T-?onnr+i Pnmrn c. n 1 identify the records, and then we can either come 2 back here, or do it over there. So I'm open for 3 suggestions. 4 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Could you define for me, 5 just as a point of information, how you intend to 6 identify the Transactions on the record without 7 attaching them as a copy? 8 MR. RICE: I'm going to pick up the book, I'm 9 going .t@': JjjfeagT' it into the record, and he's going to 10 take the microfilm, and I'm g'oing to ask ''him: to 11 certify the microfilm. 12 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: You're going to read the 13 entire Transactions, or portions? 14 MR. RICE: Read the title, Transactions of the 15 National Safety Council 21st Annual Safety C o n g r e s s , 16 and get the date, as Volume 1, it's going to be 17 marked, and then we will use the microfilm, which he 18 will -- I will ask Mr. Schmidt to certify the 19 microfilm when it's available from his people, and 20 I'll recess the deposition, come back up here, if 21 necessary, to get the microfilm certified. 22 MR. BURKE: That will be the extent of the 23 d e p o s i t i o n , then. 24 MR. RICE: Yes. flnllivan Ponnvfiwrr Pa*v**\** O 1 MR. BURKE: As a point of information, Counsel - 2 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: We would like to, as far 3 as I'm concerned, wait to do our cross-examination 4 until such time as you've completed your direct 5 examination. 6 MR. RICE: That's fine. 7 It's 12:20, Mr. Schmidt. What time do 8 you want to reconvene at the library? 9 T HEfW-^TNJ'SS: 11:20 our time. 10 MR. RICE: Excuse me. I'm on South C a r o l ina'^'- 11 time still. 12 What time do you want to reconvene 13 over there? 14 THE WITNESS: How much time are we going to need 15 over there? 16 MR. RICE: Probably 30 minutes. Do you want to 17 go now? Do you want us to meet you over there? 18 THE WITNESS: Does everyone present plan to be 19 in our library at that time? Is that the present 20 plan of everybody here? 21 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: We might say, it's very 22 small. It's really not a library, it's an area 23 a b o u t t h a t ( i n d i c a t i n g ) b i g . 24 THE WITNESS: Where the documents are that ftlllll van Pannvfinrr n 1 you're interested in. 2 MR. MELIA: Just for clarification, you're not 3 going into the contents of -- 4 MR. RICE: We're just going over to identify the 5 volumes for the record. 6 MR. MELIA: That have already been identified, 7 the microfilm, and -- 8 MR. MURPHY: Why can't that be done later? 9 M S . _?'-ST|TGNOLI : Do you want a show of hands who 10 will be going over? I'll be 'there. *' ... ?'***' 11 MR. RICE: We're just going to get a count. 12 This will not be on the record. 13 (Show of h a n d s .) 14 MR. RICE: About everybody. It's about 25. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, if they can be satisfied 16 with taking a glance to see that they are there, we 17 can do it right there in the library and can 18 probably do it, you know, within a few minutes. If 19 they want them laid out on a table so they can see 20 them in toto and everybody see them at one site, why, 21 we're going to have to do a little work. 22 MR. RILEY: Can we go off the record for a 23 second? 24 (Discussion off the record.) Sullivan Renortinff flnm nanv 1 MR. RICE: Mr. Schmidt, it's 11:30. I would ask 2 if you would take the court reporter with you and go 3 over to the National Safety Council, and we'll 4 reconvene over there in 30 minutes. Would that be 5 fair? 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 MR. RICE: We'll be in the library, 25th floor, 8 444 North Michigan, right across the street. 9 THE^W^TNJT-SS: With the number of people here, 10 there is a little lobby there, i t 's going tt b e - ^ TM 11 little bit full. Why don't you -- 12 MR. RICE: We'll wait by the elevators. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, why don't you all wait there 14 as a group until we're all set in the library, and 15 then we'll have you all come in as a group. 16 going to be a crowd, unfortunately. It's ' 'V\t 17 MR. RICE: All right. We will be come back here 18 for their cross-examination, if they want to do it. 19 (Whereupon, a recess was taken, 20 and the deposition resumed at 21 the National Safety Council, 22 444 North Michigan Avenue, 23 Chicago, Illinois.) 24 Sullivan Reporting Company 1 (Whereupon, Deposition Exhibits 2 Nos. 6 thru 20, inclusive, 3 Witness Schmidt, were marked for 4 identification, as of this date.) 5 MR. RICE: Let's go back on the record. 6 Q. Mr. Schmidt we have reconvened the 7 deposition at the library of the National Safety 8 Council. Could you tell us where we are, please, 9 what part of the library? 10 A. We're in the library. 11 Q. What part of the library are we in? 12 A. The area in which we've stored a number of 13 our historical volumes, including the National 14 Safety Council Transactions and the National Safety 15 News magazines bound volumes that are library copies. 16 Q. Would you please identify for us on the 17 record by pointing out to the counsel that are here 18 assembled which books represent the proceedings of 19 the National Safety Congress or the Transactions of 20 the National Safety Congress? 21 A. The Transactions begin over here on this 22 shelf (indicating), which happens to be the very 23 b e g i n n i n g one, a v e r y h i s t o r i c a l book of 1913 -- 24 '12 here, and continue on down here to 1978, which Sullivan Reporting Company 1 is the last volume that we put together. 2 Q. Mr. Schmidt, would you please point out for 3 the record the volumes beginning in 1930? 4 A. Point them out, or take them out? 5 Q. Take them out. 6 A. All right. Well, I assume this is Volume 1. 7 This is Volume 1, Congress Transactions 8 of 1930, which was held in Pittsburgh in October of 9 1930 . 10 Q. And how many volumes are there from the 11 year 1930? 12 A. Three volumes from 1930. 13 Q. Mr. Schmidt, can you tell me what this 14 (indicating) is, please, sir? 15 A. This is a microfilm of Volumes 1 through 3 16 1930. It's a duplicate we had made of these records 17 here. 18 Q. And let's mark that as Exhibit No. 6 to the 19 deposition, please, as so marked. 20 Would you please pull the volumes from 21 1931. 22 A. This is going to be a long procedure, I'll 23 t e l l y o u that. 24 This (indicating) is 1931 volume. And 1 Sullivan Reporting Company 1 I have to look because I don't -- I can't tell them \ 2 by looking totally from the outside. ? 3 This (indicating) is 1931 volume. 4 This is perhaps a duplicate of that one. 5 1931, this must be Volume 2. 6 I don't know whether there's a third 7 volume on that one or not. 8 This (indicating) is 1932 volume, one 9 more ahead. There should have been two volumes from 10 1931. 11 Q. Are those the volumes of the National 12 Safety Congress for the year 1931? 13 A . Yes . 14 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Excuse me. How many 15 volumes for 1931? 16 THE WITNESS: Two. Volume 1 and 2, 1931 -- 17 excuse me. Let me restart. 1931 Volume 1, through 18 1932 Volume 2. 19 MR. RICE: Q. And is that a microfilm? 20 A. This is a microfilm copy of what we have. 21 Q. Could you tell us where these microfilm 22 copies came from? 23 A. They're stored in another library in a 24 cabinet not far from here. Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Q Are these records kept in the normal course 2 of business of the National Safety Council? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. The volume -- the microfilm we looked at 5 for 1931 Volume 1/ .through 1932 Volume 2, that's 6 what we've marked as Exhibit No. 7? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. And could you tell us which books in 9 add it ion to the ones you point out for 1931 are 10 included on that microfilm? 11 A. That was Volume 1 of '32, Volume 2 of '32, 12 would be these two books here (indicating). 13 Q. So on Exhibit No. 7 -- 14 A. 7, y e s . 15 Q. -- we have 1931 and 1932 Congresses. 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. 18 Could you tell me, please, sir -- 19 identify this (indicating) for the record. 20 A. Congress Transactions microfilm 1933 21 Volume 1/ through 1936 Volume 2. 22 Q. And is that -- 23 A . Exhibit No. 8. 24 Q. Is that a microfilm kept in the normal i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 course of business of the National Safety Council? 2 A. Y e s . 3 Q. And were those so kept today when we came 4 here? 5 A. Y e s . 6 Q. All right . Mr. Schmidt, could you tell us 7 which volumes that microfilm covers? 8 A. Well, it's got -- let me see. 9 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Object to the form of the 10 q u e s t i o n . 11 THE WITNESS: 1933 Volume 1, 1934 Volume 1, 1933 12 and 1934 Volumes 2, 1935 Volume 1, 1935 Volume 2, 13 1936 Volume 1, 1936 Volume 2, which is the same as 14 that (indicating) particular one. 15 MR. RICE: Q. Mr. Schmidt, do you know these -- 16 what we have marked as Exhibit No. 8, do you know 17 whether or not it is a microfilm of the volumes you 18 just identified? 19 A. Yes, these are microfilm of these volumes. 20 Q. A l l r i g h t . 21 A. '33 through '36. 22 Q. Thank you, sir. 23 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE* May the record reflect at 24 this point that in responding to the questions, Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Mr. Schmidt is simply reading what is written on the J 2 outside of the microfilm boxes. 3 MR. RICE: Q. Mr. Schmidt, do you know what's 4 in these microfilm boxes? 5 A. These are the Transactions of the National 6 Safety Congress. 7 Q. And do you have personal knowledge of that? 8 A. I've used them. 9 Q. Thank you, sir. 10 Could you tell us what Exhibit No. 9 11 is? 12 A. Exhibit No. 9, Congress Transactions 1937 13 Volume 1 through 1938 Volume 2. 14 Q. Could you tell us from your own personal 15 knowledge which volumes -- identify which volumes of 16 the Transactions are contained on Exhibit No. 9. 17 A. Volume 1, 1937 is here, and Volume 2 of '37 18 is here, and Volumes 1 and 2 of '38 are here. 19 Q. And are those volumes of the National 20 Safety Congress? 21 A. These are volumes of the National Safety 22 Council library. 23 Q. Could you identify for us, please, what's 24 been marked Exhibit No. 10? Sullivan Reporting Company 1 A. Exhibit 10 is marked as National Safety j 2 Council Transactions, October 1939 - October 1940. 3 Q. Could you please identify for us which 4 volumes of the Congress are contained on that 5 microfilm by pointing out the books to counsel. 6 A. These two .(indicating) are Volumes 1 and 2 7 of '39, Volume 2 (indicating) of 1940, and Volume 1 8 (indicating) of 1940. 9 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Joe, I'm willing to 10 stipulate, at least on behalf of my client, that 11 Mr. Schmidt will continue this exercise through 15 12 microfilms numbered consecutively from 6 through 20, 13 and that these microfilms will be identified by 14 Mr. Schmidt from reading the exterior of the 15 microfilm boxes, the microfilms for the Transactions 16 through 1961. 17 MR. RICE: Are you willing to stipulate that the . 18 microfilm that's on there is in fact the copy of the 19 books ? 20 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: I'm willing to stipulate 21 that he will continue testifying as he has 22 previously testified. 23 MR. RICE: We want the m i c r o f i l m s , u n l e s s y o u 24 want to stipulate to them. Sullivan Reporting Company 1 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: No, I can't stipulate to 2 his testimony. i 3 MR. RICE: My question is, will you or will the 4 railroad defendants or the defendants here stipulate 5 that this is a microfilm copy of what it represents 6 to be on the outside of the box? 7 MR. WHITNEY: Craig Whitney. 8 I won't stipulate to that. 9 MR. RICE:,, You will not? 10 MR. WHITNEY: No. I c a n 't until I see the books. 11 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: As I indicated previously, 12 I'm willing to stipulate that Mr. Schmidt will 13 continue this exercise that we're going through, 14 which I personally think is a waste of time, up 15 through Exhibit No. 20, which is 1961, and that his 16 testimony about the succeeding exhibits will be the 17 same except for the years changing. 18 MR. RICE: Will everyone here so stipulate? 19 MS. CASTAGNOLI: Sue Castagnoli. 20 As to his testimony, not as to the 21 contents of the microfilm. 22 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Yes, we are making it 23 clear that his testimony will continue to be; that 24 we are not stipulating to the contents of the box or Sullivan Reporting Company 1 the contents of the microfilm. J 2 MR. RICE: All right. 3 Q. Mr. Schmidt, we have before us 15 rolls of 4 microfilm. Do you know of your own personal 5 knowledge, sir, that these are true and accurate 6 microfilm copies of the Transactions of the National 7 Safety Congress from 1930 through 1961, inclusive? 8 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Object to the form of the 9 question. 10 MR. RICE: Q. Do you have that knowledge, sir? 11 A. No. 12 MR. RICE: All right. Let's go to the microfilm 13 m a c h i n e s . 14 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: I guess I shouldn't have 15 checked out. 16 MR. RICE: Yeah, because we're going to be here 17 tomorrow. 18 (Whereupon, the parties moved to 19 another section of the library 20 to resume the deposition.) 21 MR. RICE: Q. Mr. Schmidt, would you please 22 review Exhibit No. 6 and tell us what it is. 23 A. H a v e we got everybody here now? 24 Q. We've got a court reporter. That's all we i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 need . 2 A. Exhibit No. 6, microfilm, Co'ngress 3 Transactions, 1930 Volume 1 through Volume 3. And 4 on the screen we have the beginning page of the 5 Transactions of 1930 from the microfilm copy. 6 Q. Mr. Schmidt, would you please turn the 7 microfilm and to your satisfaction tell us whether 8 or not that is in fact a copy of the National Safety 9 Council Congress for 1930. 10 A. Well, at this point, looking just at the 11 beginning few pages, I'm satisfied they represent 12 the books which we have out there, the bound volumes. 13 Q. All right. Now, what else is contained on 14 that, what other years besides 1930, to your 15 understanding? 16 A. This was 1930 on this exhibit, Exhibit 17 No . 6. 18 Q. Could you please tell us whether or not 19 Volume 2 of 1930 is on that microfilm by looking at 20 the film itself? 21 A. Here (indicating) is the beginning page of 22 Volume 2 of 1930 Congress Transactions. 23 Q. Could you tell us if Volume 3 is on that 24 microf ilm? Sullivan Reporting Company 1 A. There's the title page (indicating) of 2 Volume 3 of 1930 on the microfilm. j 3 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: I will stipulate at this 4 point that Mr. Schmidt, at least for my clients that 5 I'm appearing on behalf of, that Mr. Schmidt will 6 continue this exercise for Exhibits 6 through 20, 7 which include 19 -- I understand the 19 -- the boxes 8 of microfilm labeled 1930 through 1961. And I think 9 it's fairly apparent Mr. Schmidt is not going to 10 review every page shown on the microfilm and compare 11 it with the books -- with the Transaction books. I 12 think it's apparent that he's going to continue 13 doing what he is doing now, and that is checking the 14 cover page of each volume to see that it is in the 15 microfilm, and that he will continue doing that up 16 through 1961. And I'm willing to stipulate that he 17 will continue doing that. 18 MR. WHITNEY: I would join in that stipulation. 19 MR. OTIS: I would, too. Harry Otis. 20 MR. ALDRIDGE: Subject to the ability to later 21 review for accuracy. 22 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: And, again, we are simply 23 stipulating that will be the testimony, or we are 24 willing to stipulate that, if Mr. Rice will accept t Sullivan Reporting Company 1 it, and avoid this continued exercise. j 2 MR. WHITNEY: I want to emphasizd a point that 3 Mr. White made. For purposes of the record, it 4 should be clear that what Mr. Schmidt has done is 5 put the tape on the machine, or caused it to be put 6 on the machine, and gone through all the pages 7 without looking at any individual page except for 8 the cover page. 9 MR. GAVIN: And without comparing it.to the 10 or ig inal book . 11 MR. RICE: As I understand it, everyone here is 12 prepared to stipulate that Mr. Schmidt will review 13 each microfilm, and that these will be, as far as 14 his knowledge goes, copies as represented on the 15 boxes, but you're not stipulating they are in fact 16 copies of the books. Is that what you're saying? 17 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: I'm simply stipulating as 18 to his testimony that he will continue what he's 19 done so f a r . 20 MR. RICE: All right. 21 MR. WHITNEY: For each box. 22 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: For each box. 23 THE WITNESS: I object. 24 MR. RICE: I don't blame you. I'd object, too. Sullivan Reporting Company 1 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: I think it's burdensome to | 2 expect this witness to do more, and that's why we're 3 willing to enter into this stipulation in good faith. 4 There are proper ways to authenticate microfilm, and 5 I'm not sure this witness is the one to do it. 6 MR. RICE: Q. Mr. Schmidt, put on the film now, 7 Exhibit No. 7, which is the volume -- microfilm for 8 1931 Volume 1, and 1932. 9 A. (Witness complying.) 10 Q. Would you turn to 1932, please, sir. 11 A. (Witness complying.) 12 Q. Mr. Schmidt, would you please turn to 13 Page 50 of Volume 1 of 1932. 14 A. Would you correct your directions on what 15 you want? I was looking for Volume 2. 16 Q. I'm sorry. Excuse me. Volume 1 of 1932, 17 Page 50. 18 A. Now, what did you want? Please tell me 19 again, because I'm not sure I got it all straight. 20 Q. I'd like for you to turn to Volume 1, 1932, 21 Page 50 . 22 A. Volume 1 of which year? 23 Q. 1932. 24 A. Volume 1, 1932. Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Volume 1, 1932 (indicating). 2 Q. Page 50 . i 3 A. Page 50 (indicating). 4 Q. Could you tell us what -- excuse me. Here 5 is the original volume. Could you please tell us 6 whether Volume 1, Page 50 through Page 57, as shown 7 on the microfilm marked as Exhibit No. 7 are in fact 8 true and accurate copies of the original Page 50 9 through 57 of,Volume 1 of the 1932 bound volume. 10 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Object to the form of the 11 q u e s t i o n . 12 MR. SAC HRISON: What is it, Joe? 13 MR. RICE: It's an article by Gardner. 14 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Off the record. 15 (Discussion off the record.) 16 (Mr. Daniel White briefly left 17 the r o o m .) 18 MR. RICE: Q. Mr. Schmidt -- 19 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Did he not answer your 20 last question? 21 MR. RICE: You told him not to. 22 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Okay. I've returned. I 23 had to get my articles. 24 MR. RICE: Q. Mr. Schmidt, my question to you, Sullivan Reporting Company 1 is the microfilm shown as Exhibit No. 7 a true and j 2 accurate duplicate of the original Volume 2 from 3 Page 50 to 57, inclusive? 4 A. Yes, it 's a -- 5 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Renew my objection. 6 MR. RICE: State your objection, please, if 7 you're going to state it. 8 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: I think it's improper 9 authentication technique to authenticate portions of 10 text in this manner. 11 MR. RICE: The text is available for you to 12 authenticate the rest of, and that's what the rule 13 requires, is my interpretation. 14 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: That's my objection. 15 MR. RICE: Okay, fine. 16 Q. Could you give us your answer, sir? 17 A. The copy on microfilm appears the same as 18 in the printed text material for the pages cited. 19 Q. And are those -- could you tell us, on 20 Page 50 there's the beginning of an article entitled, 21 "The Effects of Inhaled Mineral Dust," by Leroy 22 Gardner. 23 MR. GAVIN: Is that a question? 24 MR. RICE: I'm waiting till he gets there. A Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Q. And I'd ask you, sir, if the microfilm j 2 includes the entire text of that speech or article. 3 MR. GAVIN: I object to the question because it 4 contains the title of the article from material that 5 has not been properly authenticated. 6 MR. RICE: Q. Is that the entire article? 7 A. The microfilm contains a printed copy of 8 what is in the textbook. 9 Q. All right. Thank you, sir. 10 Thank you, sir. You can remove that 11 t a p e . 12 There are six more to go. 13 A. I object to doing six more. 14 Q. Based on the objections, Mr. Schmidt, there 15 is no other way. 16 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: May I state on the record, 17 I did not hear Mr. Schmidt's request, but we renew 18 earlier our offer to stipulate. 19 MR. RICE: I accept your stipulation. You so 20 stipulate on the record? 21 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Well, in lieu of the 22 procedure we're going through. 23 MR. RICE: No, you will not stipulate that the 24 microfilm that we marked is in fact a copy of the Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Transactions; therefore, the documents I'm j 2 interested in I'm going to specifically identify 3 and prove that they are in fact copies of the 4 Transactions. If you want any other documents to 5 prove -- 6 M R . DANIEL B. WHITE: I withdraw my stipulation 7 if your intent is to go forward with authenticating 8 individual -- or, attempting to authenticate 9 individual articles on the microfilm. 10 MR. RICE: I'm going to do it -- I can do it 11 both ways, or I can do it just one way. I can go 12 through every microfilm, have him verify that the 13 microfilm is what it says on the box; that would be 14 number one. I understood you stipulated that he 15 would testify by looking at the microfilm that it in 16 fact represented the copies' of the books, that would 17 be his testimony. 18 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: No, we indicated that he 19 would continue the exercise of identifying the lead 20 page of each Transaction as being in the microfilm, 21 which is what he was doing. 22 MR. RICE: That's fine. 23 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: And we're willing to 24 stipulate that he'll continue doing that. Sullivan Reporting Company 1 MR. RICE: 2 stipulation. That's fine. I accept that j 3 MR. OTIS: No objection. 4 MR. RICE: No objection from anyone present? 5 MR. WHITNEY: Can we go off the record? 6 (Discussion off the record.) 7 MR. WHITNEY: We've had an off-the-record 8 discussion that I'm going to try to summarize on the 9 record. 10 That the defendants are willing to 11 enter into a stipulation with counsel for plaintiff 12 that Mr. Schmidt -- Mr. Schmidt's testimony would be, 13 in regards to the remaining microfilms, that he has 14 reviewed the initial page of each Transaction, and 15 based upon that, it is his belief that the material 16 on the microfilm is identical to the written 17 material in the bound volumes. 18 MR. RICE: There's no objection to that 19 stipulation. 20 THE WITNESS: I object to it. 21 MR. RICE: You object to the stipulation? 22 THE WITNESS: Because I d o n 't want to look at 23 all those things, that's why. 24 MR. RICE: That's what they're saying, they'll - Sullivan Reporting Company 1 stipulate that you would do that. 2 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: So you won't have to. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't want to look at them. 4 MR. RICE: That's right, so we don't have to 5 look at all 15 of them. 6 MR. GAVIN: You should say "I stipulate, too." 7 THE WITNESS: I'll tell you what I think. 8 MR. RICE: For the record, the exhibits that we 9 are identifying -- we identified I t h i n k ,through 10 No. 10 -- Exhibit No. 11 are the Transactions from 11 October '41 through October '42. 12 No. 12 is October '43 to October '46. 13 No. 13 is 1947 and 1948. 14 No. 14 is 1949 to 1950. 15 No. 15 is 1951 and 1952. 16 No. 16 is 1953 through 1954. 17 No. 17 is 1955 to 1956. 18 No. 18 is 1957 to 1958. 19 No. 19 is 1959 through 1960. 20 And No. 20 is 1961 through Volume 26, 21 1961. 22 MR. ALDRIDGE: The last part, Exhibit 20, is 23 Volume 61 -- excuse me. 1961? 24 MR. RICE: Exhibit 20 is Volume 1, 1961, through Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Volume 26, 1961. 2 MR. ALDRIDGE: Thank you. 3 MR. RICE: Now, as I understand it, you're not 4 willing to stipulate that the pages on the microfilm 5 are in fact copies of the pages in the books. 6 MR. WHITNEY: That's correct. 7 MR. RICE: You're not willing to stipulate to 8 that. 9 MR. WHITNEY: That is correct. 10 MR. RICE: Therefore, the articles that I'm 11 interested in I'm going to look to microfilm and 12 compare to the original books and verify that they 13 are in fact copies of the original books. 14 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Can you advise us how many 15 articles you've got, how many you intend to do? 16 MR. ROVEN: About 8 volumes. 17 MR. RICE: About 8 volumes -- about 8 articles. 18 Some of them are in the same volume. 19 MR. BURKE: Have you stated anywhere what the 20 names of these articles are? 21 MR. RICE: N o , S ir , I have no t . 22 MR. R O V E N : Well, we did on the first one . 23 MR. RICE : I did when I got to it. 24 MR. B U R K E : Would you do it now as to what the Sullivan Reporting Company 1 articles are in these remaining volumes? 2 MR. RICE: j When I get to them, I'll be glad to. 3 MR. BURKE: That will be today, right? 4 MR. RICE: It will be in the next 30 minutes is 5 all it will take me to do this. 6 Mr. Schmidt -- 7 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: May I ask that you ... 8 Mr. Rice, do you intend to make copies 9 of the articles and attach them as exhibits to the 10 deposition? 11 MR. RICE: No, sir. I'm going to make the 12 microfilm exhibits. Anybody who wants to look at 13 them can copy them off the microfilm. 14 The reason I'm saying that, Mr. White, 15 is because you don't stipulate that my copies are 16 true and accurate copies, and therefore my giving 17 them to you would not be fair, since you don't 18 stipulate that they're true and accurate. So you 19 can get your own copies. You have copies. I think 20 they're the same ones we copied last time we were up 21 here. 22 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: I don't believe we've been 23 served with any request for admissions on that point. 24 MR. RICE: That's all right. Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Page 37 2 MR. RILEY: Excuse me. What exhibit number ? 3 MR. RICE: He's referring to Exhibit No . 8 . 4 MR. WHITNEY : What year is that, M r . Rice? 5 MR. RICE: 1933 . 6 THE WITNESS : What page? 7 MR. RICE: Page 37 8 THE WITNESS : Which volume? 9 MR. RICE: .. He's looking at 1933. 10 MR. RILEY: Wh ich volume? 11 MR. ROVEN: 1933, Volume 1. 12 MR. RICE: Q. M r . Schmidt, looking at what was 13 previously identified by you as the original volume 14 for the 1933 Volume 1 Congress, could you tell me, 15 please, sir, whether Page 37 through Page 39 is a -- 16 on Exhibit No. 8 is in fact a copy of the original 17 volume? 18 A. It appears to be an original copy of the 19 printed text. 20 Q. And the name of that article is what, sir? 21 A. "The Mechanical Control of Dust." 22 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: May we have a running 23 objection on the identification of these articles, 24 objecting to the form of the question, because he's k Sullivan Reporting Company 1 authenticating articles which themselves have not 2 been authenticated from books which hLve not been 3 authenticated from microfilm which has not been 4 authenticated. 5 MR. RICE: 6 you want. You can have any running objection 7 MR. BURKE: Excuse me. Could you give the name 8 of the article again? 9 THE WITNESS: "The Mechanical Control of Dust." 10 MR. RICE: "The Mechanical Control of Dust." 11 MR. DAVID B. WHITE: Author? 12 THE WITNESS: E. 0. Jones. 13 MR. RICE: Q. Now, could you please tell me 14 whether the article contained on Page 39 as shown on 15 the microfilm is in fact a true and accurate copy of 16 the article as it appears in the printed volume? 17 And also tell us the name of the article. 18 MR. MURPHY: The page? 19 MR. RICE: 39. 20 THE WITNESS: That appears to be in agreement 21 with what is in the printed text. 22 MR. RICE: Q. Could you tell us what the name 23 of that article is, please, sir? 24 A. "How to Determine the Dust Content of the i Sullivan.Reporting Company 1 Atmosphere in Dusty Industries." 2 Q. By Dr.? 3 A. E. G. Me iter . 4 MS. CASTAGNOLI: Joe, could you read that again? 5 MR. RICE: "How to Determine the Dust Content of 6 the Atmosphere in Dusty Industries," by Dr. E. G. 7 Meiter, M-e-i-t-e-r, Page 39 through 42. 8 Q. Mr. Schmidt, I'd also ask you to look at 9 Page 42 through 44, and ask you if the pages so 10 numbered on the microfilm are true and accurate 11 copies of the volume as you have in your possession 12 a t t h i s t i m e . 13 A. They appear to be the same. 14 Q. And could you tell us what the title of the 15 article on Page 42 is? 16 A. "Discussion of Dust Problems," by 17 Dr. Leonard Greenburg. 18 Q. Look at Page 439 of Volume 1, please, sir, 19 on the microfilm as well as in the book. 20 A. (Witness complying.) 21 Q. Sir, could you tell us if Page 4 -- tell us 22 the title of Page 439, and also tell us if the 23 picture on the microfilm is a true and accurate copy 24 of the original. ! Sullivan Reporting Company 1 A . 11 i s . j 2 Q. And what's the title of it? ' 3 A. "Safety Section, ARA - Steam Railroad 4 Section, NSC." 5 MR. ALDRIDGE: Would you repeat or give that 6 ti tie again? 7 MR. RICE: "Safety Section of the ARA - Steam 8 Railroad Section, NSC." 9 Q. And that page is a true and accurate copy 10 of the original? 11 A . Yes. 12 Q. That's Page 439. 13 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Let me make a statement on 14 the record. 15 MR. RICE: Let me finish this statement, then 16 you can make your statement. 17 Q. Is that a true and accurate copy? 18 A. Y e s . 19 MR. RICE: Okay. 20 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: For the convenience of the 21 witness, I would simply like to point out I think 22 later I may ask him to indicate to me which of these 23 articles which you are laboriously going through now 24 was delivered, if he can tell from the Table of Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Contents, to the general session, or particular 2 section meetings. j 3 MR. RICE: If you're asking if you can ask that 4 question at the same time, it's all right with me -- 5 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Okay. 6 MR. RICE: -- if that's what you want to do. 7 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Okay. 8 MR. RICE: Do you want to ask him about that? 9 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Let's go back. 10 MR. RICE: Look at Page 439 on the book. 11 THE WITNESS: Well, let me finish this other one 12 first. 13 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: That will be easier. 14 MR. ROVEN: Let's go off the record for a minute. 15 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: I'm just going to have one 16 or two questions. 17 THE WITNESS: The articles on 39 -- 18 MR. RICE: That's 3 7. 19 THE WITNESS: -- 37, 39, and 42 are classed as 20 subject sessions. 21 MR. ALDRIDGE: Say that again, sir? 22 THE WITNESS: The articles on Page 37, 39, and 23 42 are classed as subject sessions. That does not 24 define its audience. Sullivan Reporting Company 1 The article on Page 439 was identified 2 as part of the railroad -- Steam Railroad Section 3 program. 4 MR. RICE: Mr. White, do you have any questions 5 about this volume before we go on? 6 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: No, I just wanted to, for 7 ease of convenience, ask those one identifying 8 questions. 9 And in terms of Page 439, you 10 indicated that was simply the title page of the 11 section in that volume dealing with the Safety 12 Section of the ARA and the Steam Railroad Section of 13 the National Safety Council; is that correct? 14 THE WITNESS: Right. 15 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: And the previous articles 16 were evidently presented at the quote, "subject 17 sessions," close quote, whatever that means. 18 MR. RICE: Q. Would you tell us what the 19 subject sessions mean? 20 A. I can't tell you what it meant in 1932-'3. 21 Q. Tell us what you know about it. 22 A. In general, subject sessions are defined as 23 a large session appealing to self stress over a 24 common problem. However, they are not presented Sullivan Reporting Company 1 with the idea that everyone who is at a Congress 2 will attend that one, and then the n4xt one and then 3 the next one; they usually run concurrent. 4 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Let me ask, you've only 5 been on one previous article, and that was on 1932, 6 Page 50. If you could simply look at the Table of 7 Contents of the 1932 volume, Volume 1 -- 8 MR. RICE: That's the wrong one. 9 THE WITNESS: This (indicating) is '34. 10 MR. RICE: That's '34. Here's '32. 11 THE WITNESS: Page 50? 12 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Page 50, yes, sir. 13 And perhaps you may want to look at the Table of 14 Contents. 15 The article on Page 50 would have been 16 delivered at the general session; is that correct? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, that was the title given in 18 the Table of Contents on that particular one, 19 General Sessions. 20 MR. SMITH: Could I ask a general question? 21 MR. RICE: Go ahead. State your name for the 22 record. 23 MR. SMITH: David Smith, Pittsburgh Corning 24 Corporation. I Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Do you know, sir, of your own j 2 knowledge whether the articles that you've been 3 looking at are the full and complete articles as 4 published in the text? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 MR. SMITH: How do you know that? 7 THE WITNESS: As printed in here. What is on 8 the microfilm is a copy of what is in here. 9 MR. SMITH: Okay. What I want to know, sir, the 10 article submitted by whomever, is that a full and 11 complete article that is republished in the 12 Transaction? 13 THE WITNESS: I read you a statement earlier out 14 of an earlier volume that I had with me, and she can 15 find it, if you wish, but I don't have it handy. In 16 essence, they are not necessarily. 17 Is that the one I quoted this morning? 18 The one around 1940 I read to you. 19 MR. RICE: (Indicating.) 20 THE WITNESS: The statement I read this morning 21 pertained because -- I must qualify. What has been 22 submitted to us as part of the Transaction is what 23 the speaker gave us, by and large. 24 MR. SMITH: So you don't know if he edited his Sullivan Reporting Company 1 remarks 2 THE WITNESS: I Well, yes, speakers are normally -- 3 in the past when I have been here, in the 20 years 4 that I was here, when we did this, speakers were 5 always given an opportunity to edit their remarks 6 and make whatever adjustments they felt necessary. 7 MR. SMITH: What I'm having a problem with, sir -- 8 maybe we can shortcut this -- do you of your own 9 knowledge know whether the articles that,you've 10 quoted are printed or reprinted verbatim in the 11 Transaction? 12 MR. RICE: I don't understand your question. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure that I do, either. 14 MR. SMITH: What we have is possibly summaries 15 of someone else's article that you're seeking to 16 authenticate here, and I'm going to object to the 17 continued -- 18 MR. ROVEN: So what? 19 MR. SMITH: -- introduction of this material 20 into evidence unless we have a showing that we have .21 the original or an exact copy of the original 22 article, not something that's been paraphrased by 23 somebody else to give a different slant. 24 MR. RICE: Q. The question I think Mr. Smith is i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 asking, when Dr. Gardner gave a speech in 1932, is J 2 the, what's printed in this Transaction what 3 Dr. Gardner submitted? 4 A. Well, I reviewed what I said in the 5 beginning about what has been done with the Council 6 in the time that I was here beginning in '65, I 7 reviewed that process, and I don't think it changed 8 significantly. A speaker made a presentation, the 9 speaker submitted a written copy of his presentation, 10 it was edited here, whatever adjustments we felt 11 necessary in order to put it into this form, the 12 speaker normally had an opportunity to review it 13 himself, then we printed it as what we considered a 14 record of that particular session or presentation. 15 MR. SMITH: So that I understand, sir, what is 16 printed there is an edited version of the initial 17 work that was submitted by the particular author or 18 speaker . 19 THE WITNESS: It may be, if he chose to have it 20 edited or we chose to have it edited. ,21 MR. SMITH: Is there any record of the original 22 submission of the particular talk or paper? 23 THE WITNESS: In the volumes that you are 24 talking about here in the '30s and '40s, there are i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 none left anymore. They have been destroyed. If 2 you went to the 1978 one, which was the last year we 3 did the Congress Transactions, it is possible we may 4 have the original copies as submitted by the speaker. 5 MR. SMITH: Okay. On behalf of my client, 6 Pittsburgh Corning, I'm going to impose an objection 7 to an attempt at introduction of any of these 8 articles based on Mr. Schmidt's testimony that 9 possibly it's.-an edited version in there,and we 10 don't have the original version of the particular 11 article. 12 THE WITNESS: This was the statement, sir, that 13 I made this morning when I quoted out of here. We 14 acknowledged at that point that there had been 15 editing, compacting, and some things done -- that 16 may have been done. 17 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: I join in that objection. 18 There certainly has been no stipulation to the 19 authenticity of any documents. And if we could have 20 a continuing running objection to that and to the .21 previous articles entered as to the lack of 22 authen t ic it y . 23 MR. OTIS: And you speak for the railroads in 24 general? I Sullivan Reporting Company 1 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Yes. j 2 MR. MURPHY: We've already stipulated that you 3 speak for everybody. 4 MR. RICE: Does anybody want to say anything 5 else? I don't care. 6 MR. ALDRIDGE: I was just going to say we still 7 have the same standing agreement that an objection 8 of one is the objection of all defendants unless -- 9 MR. R I C E : . Mr. White said that four or five 10 times, and you can say that four or five more, if 11 you want to. 12 Let's go, Mr. Schmidt, 13 THE WITNESS: You said it was time for dinner, 14 sir? 15 MR. RICE: N o , sir . 16 Q. 1934. 17 A. 1934. What do you want of '34? You want 18 what? 19 Q. That's Volume 1, Page 23. 1931, Volume 1, 20 Page 23. ,21 MR. DAVID B. WHITE: 1934. 22 MR. RICE: Q. 1934, Page 23, Volume 1. The 23 name of the article is, "Types of Dust That Cause 24 Occupational Diseases," by Leroy Gardner. It would i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 be the 23rd Annual Congress. 2 A. 23rd. What page? j 3 Q . Page 2 3. 4 Sir, I would ask you to tell me the 5 name of the article that appears on Page 23 of the 6 original volume, and I also ask you to compare that 7 with the microfilm and see if it's -- the microfilm 8 copy is a true and accurate copy of the complete 9 article as printed in the Transactions. _ 10 A. Yes, it is. 11 Q. Could you just tell us the name of the 12 article? 13 A. The title of the article is, "Types of Dust 14 That Cause Occupational Diseases," by Leroy Gardner. 15 Q. All right, sir. Let me ask you to look at 16 Page 26 of that same volume. I'd ask you, sir, to 17 tell us what article appears on Page 26 through 28 18 of the original volume, and also tell me whether or 19 not the microfilm is a true and accurate copy of the 20 original as printed in the Transactions. ,21 A. The title of the article is, "Using Exhaust 22 Systems and Respiratory Equipment to Protect Workers 23 Exposed to Dust," by Stuart W. Gurney and David S. 24 Beyer. And the copies on microfilm are the same. t Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Q. I'd ask you, sir, to look at Page 29 and j 2 tell us the name of that article as it appears in 3 the original text and also on the microfilm, and 4 verify that they're the same for us. 5 A. "The Medical Supervision of Workers Exposed 6 to Dust," by W. J. McConnell. 7 Q. And is the microfilm a true and accurate 8 copy of that article as printed in the Transactions? 9 A. The two-page article is the same. 10 Q. Mr. Schmidt, those two articles we just 11 discussed, being on Pages 23 through 30 of the 12 articles, could you tell us what section they were 13 delivered to? 14 A. Subject Sessions. 15 Q. Thank you, sir. 16 Anyone have any questions about those 17 articles? 18 (No r e s p o n s e .) 19 Mr. Schmidt, let's look at Page 350 of 20 the same volume. 21 . MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: May I simply object for 22 the record as to the competency of this witness at 23 this point to say anything other than that according 24 to the Table of Contents on this microfilm, that Sullivan Reporting Company 1 these three articles which have previously been j 2 identified in the 1934 volume are listed under the 3 topic Subject Sessions. 4 MR. RICE: Q. Mr. Schmidt, looking at Page 350 5 of the original text, could you tell me the article 6 that appears there and whether or not the microfilm 7 at Page 350 is a true and accurate copy of the 8 entire article as published? 9 MR. ALDRIDGE: Is there in fact an article on 10 that page? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, there is. 12 The title of the article is, "The Dust 13 Hazards in Industry," written by Dr. R. R. Sayers. 14 And the copies are the same. 15 MR. RICE: Q. That article carries from Page 350 16 to Page 353? 17 A. 350 to 353. 18 Q. And could you tell us which section of the 19 proceedings that appears in? 20 A. This one is a section proceeding in Quarry 21 Section. 22 Q. Thank you, sir. 23 Sir, if you would please turn to the 24 volume that -- 1935, Volume 1, which I believe is on Sullivan Reporting Companv 1 the same microfilm that you have. 2 A. 35, Volume 1. j 3 Q. Yes, sir. I'd like for you to turn to the 4 section on Occupational Diseases. 5 A. What page? 6 Q. I believe it's Page 117. 7 Sir, I'd ask you to look at the 8 original text and tell me whether the article 9 appearing under Occupational Diseases starting at 10 Page 117 entitled, "Present and Prospective 11 Occupational Disease Legislation" is true -- as 12 shown on the microfilm is a true and accurate copy 13 of that published in the original text. 14 A. They are the same. 15 Q. All right, sir. Look at Page 120 -- 16 MR. BEGGS: Excuse me, Counsel. Did you give 17 the name of the author? 18 MR. RICE: There wasn't a name of the author. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, there was an author. 20 MR. RICE: F. Robertson Jones is the author. 21 I'm s o r r y . 22 Q. Looking at Page 120, sir, I would ask you 23 to tell us the name of that article and tell us 24 whether the microfilm is a true and accurate copy of Sullivan Reporting Company 1 the original. j 2 A. The article is, "Some Practical 3 Considerations in Dust Control," by J. J. Bloomfield, 4 from Page 120 through 127. The copies are the same. 5 Q. Look, if you would, please, sir, to 6 Page 127 of the same volume. 7 A. (Witness complying.) 8 Q. Could you tell us, please, if the microfilm 9 is a true and,accurate copy of the original as 10 published in the Transactions, the article that 11 appears on that page and the pages that follow? 12 A. The copy is the same. 13 Q. Could you tell us the name of that article, 14 p l e a s e , s i r ? 15 A. "Silicosis and S i l i c otuberculosis, Medical 16 Problems of an Important Industrial Disease," by 17 Edgar M a y e r . 18 Q. Sir, if you would, look at Page 133 of the 19 same volume. 20 A. (Witness complying.) 21 ,, Q. Could you tell me what section of the 22 National Safety Congress that article was in, the 23 one appearing on Page 133? 24 A. That was listed in Subject Sessions. t Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Q. And what is the name of the subject session? \ 2 A. Safety Equipment. 3 Q. Could you tell us the name of that article, 4 please, sir, as appears on Page 133 and -- 5 A. "Respiratory Protective Devices." 6 Q. Is that, the copy on the microfilm, a true 7 and accurate copy of the microfilm as published in 8 the Transactions? 9 A. The copies are the same. 10 Q. Look at Page 459 of that volume, please, 11 sir. 12 439 is the only page. 13 A. You said 59. 14 Q. I'm sorry, 459 is the right one. You had 15 it right there. Excuse me. 459. 16 Could you tell me if the copy on the 17 microfilm is a true and accurate copy of the 18 original? 19 A. The c o p y is the same. 20 Q. And could you tell us the title of that 21 page? 22 A. That is, " S a f e t y Section, AAR - Steam 23 R a i l r o a d S e c t i o n , N S C . " 24 Q. Thank you, sir. i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Sir, if you would -- i 2 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: May I ask Him, before you 3 go to another year -- 4 MR. RICE: Sure. 5 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: The first four articles 6 which were mentioned from the 1935 volume, do they 7 not, Mr. Schmidt, appear under the Table of Contents 8 under the topic Subject Sessions, and not under an 9 individual section name? 10 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 11 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: And Page 459, which was 12 revealed, is the title page of the Railroad Safety 13 Section? 14 THE WITNESS: Right, right. 15 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Thank you. 16 MR. RICE: Q. Sir, looking at Volume 1 of 1936, 17 which is on the same microfilm, I believe -- 18 A. '35 you wanted? 19 Q. '36, 1936. 20 Sir, if you would, turn to Page 117. 21 If you would, tell us the name of the 22 article as appears on the original text for 1936. 23 A. Let me have the text. 24 "The Lesser Known Facts About Common L Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Occupational Diseases," by Dr. Robert B. Hunt. j 2 Q. And could you tell us if the^ microfilm is a 3 true and accurate copy of the original Transactions 4 as it relates to that article? 5 A. The copies are the same. 6 Q. Sir, if you would, look at Page 121. Could 7 you tell me the name of that article, please, sir. 8 A. "Pre-employment Examination as an Aid to 9 the Control of. Industrial Diseases," by Dr. W. C. 10 T e m p i e r . 11 Q. And could you tell us what it relates -- 12 Dr. Templer's profession is and who he's with? 13 A. It says, "Medical Director, Corning 14 Glassworks, Corning, New York." 15 Q. Could you tell us if the microfilm is a 16 true and accurate copy of the article as published 17 in the Transactions? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. If you would, turn to Page 124. 20 Tell us the name of the article and 21 whether or not the microfilm is a true and accurate 22 copy of the article as it appears in the original 23 Transactions. 24 A. The copy is the same. The article is, I Sullivan Reporting Company 1 "What Can the Engineer Do to Eliminate the Hazards 2 of Occupational Disease," by Reuel CJ Stratton. 3 Q. Mr. Schmidt, if you'll turn now to Page 244 4 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Before you go, can I ask 5 him, these two articles appeared in the General 6 Session, according to the Table of Contents. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, Subject Sessions. 8 MR. RICE: Q. The general subject -- 9 A. S u b j e c t S e s s i o n s . 10 Q. All right. 11 MR. RICE: Is that your question? 12 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Yes. 13 MR. RICE: Q. Looking at Page 244, please. 14 A. (Witness complying.) 15 Q. Could you tell me, please, sir, if the 16 article -- tell us the name of the article appearing 17 on Page 244, and the -- if that's a true and 18 accurate copy as appears on the microfilm of what's 19 in the original Transactions. 20 A. The copy is the same. The title is, "Dust 21 Diseases as They Affect the Construction Industry," 22 by A. J . L a n z a . 23 Q. Thank you, sir. 24 If you would look at Page 312. i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Before you go further, j 2 could you identify what section that A r t i c l e is 3 listed under? 4 THE WITNESS: It says Construction Section. 5 3 what? 6 MR. RICE: Q. 312. Could you tell us, please, 7 sir, the name of the article that appears on 8 Page 312 of the original Transactions. 9 A. "The.Present Status of Control of Dust and 10 Fumes in Industry," by H. B. Meller. 11 Q. T h a t 's M-e-l-l-e-r? 12 A. Meller, Miller. 13 Q. And is the microfilm a true and accurate 14 copy of the original? 15 A. Y e s . 16 Q. Sir, if you -- and that is in which section? 17 A. Metals Section. 18 Q. All right. If you would, please, turn to 19 Page 489. 20 A. (witness complying.) 21 Q. Could you tell me if that Page 489 is a 22 true and accurate copy of the original? 23 A. Yes . 24 Q. And tell us what that title is, please, sir. Sullivan Renortiner flnmnnnv 1 MR. RICE: How can you stipulate to some of them j 2 without stipulating to all of them? 'Either the 3 microfilms are accurate, or they're not accurate. 4 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: No, no, you indicated that 5 there were only going to be 8 articles in all. I'm 6 simply indicating that I have seen these particular 7 articles. 8 MR. RICE: But how do you know that what's on 9 microfilm is -- 10 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Okay, let's go ahead. 11 MR. RICE: I mean, that's what I asked you to 12 stipulate two or three hours ago, but you wouldn't 13 do that. 14 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: I don't think so. Let's 15 go ahead. 16 MR. RICE: Q. Looking at the 1937 Transactions, 17 would you please look at Page 85. 18 MR. RILEY: Which volume? 19 MR. RICE: Exhibit No. 9, 1937, Volume 1. 20 MR. BEGGS : Page 85, or 35? m CO 21 MR. RICE: 22 Q . Page 85, could you tell me the name of 23 a r t i c l e , w h a t s e c t i o n it w a s in, a nd w h e t h e r the 24 microfilm is a true and accurate copy of that Rlllli Vin Ronnrfin rr PnmnoMr T 1 1 article 2 A. The microfilm is a copy. O k a y . It was in 3 the Subject Sessions. The article is, "What 4 Industrial Dusts are Harmful? Why?" by Senior 5 Surgeon R. R. Sayers. 6 Q. Sir, could you look at Page -- 7 MR. ALDRIDGE: The page number on that, please? 8 MR. RICE: 85. 9 THE WITNESS: 85 through 92. 10 MR. RICE: Q. Look at Page 92, if you would. 11 Tell me the name of that article and if the 12 microfilm copy is a copy of the original. 13 A. It is a copy. "The Engineer's Part in 14 Eliminating Dust Hazard," by Arthur S. Johnson. 15 Q. I'd ask you, sir, to look at Page 94 -- 95. 16 Excuse me, 95. Tell us the name of that article and 17 if the microfilm is a true and accurate copy of the 18 original as published in the Transactions. 19 A. It is an accurate copy. It's, "The Doctor's 20 Part in Controlling Dust Hazards," by A. D. Lazenby. 21 Q. We're finished with that one, Mr. Schmidt. 22 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Can I ask him a question? 23 MR. RICE: Sure. 24 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Again, the three articles Sullivan ReDortiner Cnm nanv i i 1 from 1937 which you've testified about are all \ 2 tabulated under the Subject Sessions Section of the 3 book. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 MR. RICE: Q. Mr. Schmidt, let's look at the 6 1941 Transactions of the National Safety Congress, 7 what's been marked as Exhibit No. 11, the microfilm, 8 and ask you to look to Page 35, and ask you, looking 9 at Page 35, could you tell us by comparing the 10 microfilm with the original Transactions if that is 11 a true and accurate copy as shown on microfilm. 12 A. The copies are the same. 13 Q. Is that a true and accurate copy, sir? 14 A. Y e s . 15 Q. Could you tell us the name of that article? 16 A. "Ventilation and Exhaust Equipment," by 17 Gordon C. Harrold. 18 Q. Could you tell us what section that was 19 delivered in? 20 A. Subject Sessions. 21 Q. All right. Looking at Page 44, I think -- 22 flip back one more page. 23 Yes, Page 43. Could you tell us the 24 name of that article. Sullivan Reporting Company 1 A. "Personal Respiratory Protective Equipment." j 2 Q. By who? 3 A. By Dr. J. H. Sterner. 4 Q. And could you tell us if the microfilm copy 5 is a true and accurate copy of that article as it 6 appeared in the original Transaction? 7 A. Y e s . 8 Q. Could you tell us what section that was in? 9 A. Subject Sessions. 10 Q. All right. If you would look at Page 655. 11 Could you tell us what that page is 12 and if the microfilm copy is a true and accurate 13 copy of the original. 14 A. The copies agree. Steam Railroad Section. 15 MR. RICE: All right. Does anyone have any 16 questions about that? 17 MR. MURPHY: I do. 18 Can you identify, please, the members 19 of the Health Committee. 20 THE WITNESS: Which year do you want, sir? 21 MR. MURPHY: The page you're looking at. 22 THE WITNESS: There's two listings here. 23 MR. MURPHY: 1940 to 1941. 24 THE WITNESS: Oh, all right. Sullivan Reporting Company 1 MR. RICE: The same one both years. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, they may be the same one. 3 Doctor I. S. Cutter, Chicago North 4 Western Railroad, and Dr. Harvey Battle -- or, 5 Bartle, I guess, B-a^-r-t-l-e, Pennsylvania Railroad. 6 MR. MURPHY: And that's in Philadelphia, 7 Pennsylvania, if I'm reading it correct? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct. 9 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Who do you represent, 10 M r . Murphy? 11 MR. MURPHY: Eagle-Picher Industries. 12 MR. RICE: Thank you, sir. That's all I have on 13 that film. 14 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Do you want to take a 15 lunch break, Mr. Schmidt? 16 MR. RICE: We've got one more to do, and then 17 I'm finished. This is the last one. Then if you 18 want to take a lunch break, we can take a lunch 19 break . 20 Q. I'd ask you to turn to Page -- well, to 21 that page (indicating). 22 A. Railroad Section, Page 45. 23 Q. And Volume 25 -- 24 MR. BEGGS: Counsel, could you give us the Sullivan Reporting Comnanv 1 exhibit and volume number, please? 2 MR. RICE: We're referring now to' Volume 25 of 3 the Annual Safety Congress Transaction for the 36th 4 Annual Conference for 1948, Page 45 of Volume 25. 5 MR. RILEY: Which exhibit? 6 MR. RICE: No. 13. 7 THE WITNESS: There we are. Page 25 of that? 8 MR. RICE: No, Page 45. 9 THE WITNESS: Oh, 45. 10 Are you sure you're on 45? 11 Have you got the same book I have? 12 MR. RICE: Well, I'm checking to see. 13 THE WITNESS: They don't agree. 14 This is 1947, not '48. 15 MR. RICE: Y e s , '48. 16 THE WITNESS : Where is my box? is '48 in this 17 18 O k a y . T h a t 's why we h a v e n 't got it. 19 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: What year is it? 20 MR. RICE: 1948 . 21 THE WITNESS : He had me in '47 22 MR. RICE : You h a v e n 't got it , Dan . 23 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Is this the smoking pistol? 24 MR. RICE : No, we just ran across it. We don't Sullivan .Reporting Company 1 have a copy of it, either. That's why I say the 2 more I look, the more I find. \ 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. Page 45. "Brief History of 4 Railroad Section." 5 MR. RICE: Q. Looking at Page 45 of Volume 25 6 of the 1948 Congress, could you tell us the name of 7 that article, please? 8 A. "A Brief History of the Railroad Section, 9 National Safety Council." 10 Q. Could you tell us if the microfilm is a 11 true and accurate copy of the original article? 12 A. It appears to be, yes. 13 Q. Could you tell us what article appears on 14 Page 47 of that same volume? 15 A. "Past General Chairmen, Railroad Section, 16 National Safety Council." 17 MR. MURPHY: Can you please, well, read ... 18 MR. GAVIN: Excuse me. I object to this fellow's 19 question for the same reasons, that it's introducing 20 hearsay testimony without adequate foundation. * \ 21 MR. MURPHY: I'd still like an answer to the 22 question. 23 MR. RICE: Mr. Schmidt. 24 MR. MURPHY: Go back to the first page of that, k Sullivan Reporting Company 1 and I'd like you to tell me, according to this page, u i 2 who was the Past General Chairman of !the Railroad 3 Section of the National Safety Council during the 4 years 1920 to 1921. 5 MR. GAVIN: Same objection. 6 THE WITNESS: Thomas H. Carrow, Dr. C-a-r-r-o-w, 7 Pennsylvania System. 8 MR. MURPHY: Thank you. 9 .Now, if anybody else wants .any more 10 read in, they can ask that. 11 MR. RICE: Q. Could you just tell me if the 12 microfilm is a true and accurate copy of Page 47 and 13 48 of that volume. 14 A . Yes. 15 Q. Thank you, sir. 16 Mr. Schmidt, we have gone through 6 or 17 7 or 8 years of the microfilm and talked about 18 specific articles; is that correct? 19 A. I have not kept track. 20 Q. Well, we've gone through several, right? 21 A. S e v e r a l . 22 Q. Have we at any time -- have you found at 23 a n y t i m e an i n a c c u r a c y b e t w e e n t h e m i c r o f i l m a nd the 24 original Transaction? k Sullivan Reporting Company 1 A. NO . j 2 MS. CASTAGNOLI : Are we finished with this? 3 MR. RICE: In a m i n u t e . 4 Q. Mr . Schmidt , you have produced to us the 5 original microfilm set kept by the National Safety 6 Council; is that right? 7 A. It is our library set. 8 Q. Right. Okay. Your library set of the 9 microfilm. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. I have ordered a duplicate of this set. 12 And what I would ask you, sir, if when that 13 duplicate is hand delivered to you by the Micre Cord 14 people, if you would compare that to the microfilms 15 that you have here and provide to this court 16 reporter in writing a statement as to whether that 17 is in fact a true and accurate copy of the 18 microf ilms. 19 A . Okay. Agreed. 20 MR. RICE: I have nothing further. 21 MR. ALDRIDGE: Back to the Continental? 22 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Well, I've got less than 23 ten minutes worth of questions, and depending upon 24 what the witness would like to do, we can either Sullivan Reporting Company 1 break for lunch, or try to finish now. I'm 2 perfectly willing to go ahead. i I don!'t think I have 3 more than ten minutes. 4 THE WITNESS: Who else does? How many more 5 questions will you have? 6 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Anyone else? 7 MR. MURPHY: I might have a couple. 8 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: There will probably be 9 some fillers after I finish. 10 MR. RICE: I think I'll probably have ten 11 minutes after his. 12 MR. GAVIN: I just want to object to your 13 proposed procedure upon obtaining a copy for the 14 reasons that his examination of the copy that Micre 15 Cord sends to him and all that examination he's 16 about to do will not be subject to cross-examination, 17 neither will his written statement to the court 18 reporter, so for that reason, I object to that 19 procedure, and I don't think it's proper. 20 MR. RICE: Based on that objection, Mr. Schmidt, 21 when you receive those, will you notify me so I can 22 have the court reporter present while you look 23 t h r o u g h t h a t film, a nd if a n y o n e w a n t s to c r o s s - 24 examine, we'll give notice. Sullivan .Reporting Company 1 MR. GAVIN: 2 object. That's improper, too. i I would 3 MR. RICE: You can object, but that's the 4 procedure we'll follow. The deposition will be 5 recessed for that purpose. We'll reconvene when he 6 gets a copy. 7 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: We'll join in the 8 objection as that procedure being improper. 9 ,,Mr. Schmidt, what would you like to do? 10 THE WITNESS: If you can get done in ten or 11 fifteen minutes, we'll finish. 12 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: I've got ten -- less than 13 ten. He's indicated he wants another ten. 14 MR. RICE: No, depending on what you ask. I 15 anticipate I will have some redirect after you 16 finish y o u r s . 17 THE WITNESS: If you can make them brief and 18 finish it now, I would just as soon you finish now 19 and be done with it. 20 EXAMINATION 21 BY 22 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: 23 Q. Mr. Schmidt, I'd like to clear up in my own 24 mind, you are not the librarian of the National i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Safety Council, are you, sir? 2 A. NO. i 3 Q. And you are not the legal custodian of the 4 materials in the National Safety Council, are you, 5 sir? 6 MR. RICE: Object to the form of the question. 7 Calls for a legal conclusion. 8 THE WITNESS: Well, we don't have anybody by 9 that definition. 10 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Q. All right, sir. But 11 you yourself are not the custodian of the materials 12 in the National Safety Council library. 13 A. N o . 14 Q. Now, in terms of the microfilm which has 15 been referred to, you have not personally reviewed 16 all of the rolls of microfilm for completeness, have 17 you, sir? 18 A. No. 19 Q. The microfilming was not made by employees 20 of the National Safety Council, was it? 21 A. No. 22 Q. And you yourself did not make the microfilm. 23 A. No. 24 Q. And, again, I'm referring to the Sullivan Reporting Company 1 microfilming of the Transactions of the National 2 Safety Council. j Is that your understanding? 3 A. Y e s . 4 Q. And the microfilming was not made under 5 your personal supervision. 6 A. No. 7 Q. And I believe you stated earlier that you 8 have only been with the National Safety Council 9 since 1965. 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. And in your first nine years or so, you 12 were in the Farm Department. 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. Now, in terms of the National Safety 15 Council, you indicated there are 13,000 members. 16 A. As of today. 17 Q. How many different sections are there? 18 A. In what we call sections, there's 27 19 industrial and 3 motor transportation, as we define 20 a section. 21 Q. And there is a section for the railroads. 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. And you have never personally worked with 24 and been responsible for the functions of the t Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Railroad Section? j 2 A. I have worked with the Railroad Section 3 very briefly. 4 Q. All right, sir. But generally there is a 5 staff person from the National Safety Council -- 6 A. T h a t 's c o r r e c t . 7 Q. -- assigned to each section. 8 You have never been the staff person 9 assigned to the Railroad Section. 10 A. I was assigned temporarily. 11 Q. When was that, sir? Well, if you can just 12 estimate for me some time. 13 A. It would have been about eight or nine 14 y e a r s a g o . 15 Q. You indicated, as far as the record 16 retention policy of the National Safety Council, you 17 generally do not keep any business records around 18 for more than two years. 19 A. T h a t 's c o r r e c t . 20 Q. You do not, Mr. Schmidt, have any personal 21 knowledge of the business of the National Safety 22 Council prior to your employment with the National 23 Safety Council. 24 A. N o . Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Q. And so you have no personal knowledge of 2 the Transactions of the Congress of the National 3 Safety Council prior to your becoming employed by 4 this agency, your personal knowledge. 5 A. You're going back so far, I can't give you 6 an answer in terms of my previous employment, 7 whether I'd seen them before or not. I was aware -- 8 before I worked here, I was aware of the National 9 Safety Council, I was aware of some of the things 10 that they did. 11 Q. All right, sir. But, I mean, you were not 12 personally aware of how the materials were compiled 13 and published -- 14 A. N o . 15 Q. -- prior to your employment in 1965. 16 A. No, not in answer to that question. 17 Q. And you cannot testify as to your own 18 personal knowledge that the Transactions were 19 prepared and when they were prepared in relation to 20 when the National -- when the annual meeting was 21 held . 22 A. 23 Q. Not prior to '65. And you cannot state of your own knowledge 24 who prepared -- or, who the different persons were i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 who prepared the Transactions prior to 1965, can you, i 2 sir? ? 3 A. No. 4 Q. You cannot state of your own knowledge that 5 the persons who prepared the Transactions had 6 personal knowledge of the events which are related 7 in the Transactions. 8 A. N o . 9 Q. The National Safety Council is not a 10 business, is it, sir? 11 A. Not a what? 12 Q. It's not a business. 13 A. Well, yes, it is a business. 14 Your definition of what is a business? 15 Q. Define your term business. I'm sorry. 16 A. I defined it earlier this morning that we 17 are a not-for-profit corporation, association, if 18 you'd like to call it that. So we do have financial 19 ins and outs; we pay bills and we collect moneys. 20 Q. All r i g h t , s i r . 21 A. By that, it makes it a business. 22 Q. Will you agree with me that the 23 Transactions do not purport to be a verbatim 24 transcript of the proceedings before the National Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Safety Congress? i 2 A. This was stated earlier in what I said this 3 morning. 4 Q. And you agree with that statement. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. In fact, they are condensed and edited 7 versions, are they not? 8 A. Not necessarily. They may be an exact 9 verbatim of the presentation; they may not be. That 10 determination is made by the individual speaker and 11 what is submitted to the Council. 12 Q. I hand you a copy, Mr. Schmidt, of a 4-page 13 article entitled, "General Sessions, 1950 National 14 Safety Congress," and ask you if you can identify 15 that. 16 A. Well, it appears to be out of our 17 Transactions. I would say it is. 18 Q. All right, sir. I ask for you to refer to 19 the third page of those materials, and read the -- 20 A. Fourth, fifth paragraph? 21 Q. The fourth paragraph, sir. 22 A. It says, "In preparing these, the 23 proceedings of the Congress have been condensed and 24 edited for reference purposes. Complete original I Sullivan Reporting Company 1 charts and illustrations are available in Council J 2 file." 3 MR. RICE: Do you want to mark that, unless 4 you've got it in -- I want to mark that page. If 5 he's reading from it, I want it marked. 6 THE WITNESS: This is 1950, which is very 7 similar to what was said this morning. 8 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: All right, sir. 9 THE WITNESS: But now in answer to your question, 10 sir, I do know that since '65, since I have been 11 here, that some of the presentations as given by the 12 speakers and as printed in Transactions were 13 verbatim. 14 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: First, Mr. Schmidt, let me 15 have that page marked as the next numbered exhibit 16 for this deposition. 17 (Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 18 No. 21, Witness Schmidt, 19 was marked for identification, 20 as of this date.) 21 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Q. Mr. Schmidt, you will 22 agree with me, at least as far as Exhibit No. 21 23 shows, this remark was made in the introductory 24 materials to the 1950 Transactions. i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 A. That's correct. i 2 Q. And at least in a number of 'the volumes 3 prior to 1965, that disclaimer, if you want to call 4 it that -- 5 A . That is correct. 6 Q. -- does appear. 7 A. Yes, it does. 8 Q. I believe you stated this morning, 9 Mr. Schmidt, you can only testify of your own 10 personal knowledge as to those persons who are 11 members today in 1984, and -- 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. -- your records reveal the continuous 14 memberships of those members today. 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. But you yourself are not custodian of the 17 membership list. 18 A. No. 19 Q. And it's not your function to maintain the 20 membership list. 21 A. N o . 22 Q. And you do not make entries in the 23 membership list. 24 A. That is -- well, the final entry into, in i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 this case, the computer input I do not; I do not do 2 that kind of work, no. j 3 Q. In terms of the mailing list of the 4 National Safety Council, you are not the custodian 5 of the mailing list, are you, sir? 6 A. In terms of the membership that you're 7 addressing, no. 8 Q. You do not maintain the mailing list of the 9 National Safety Council. 10 A . I don't. 11 Q. And you do not have any personal knowledge 12 of the method of mailings of the Transactions of the 13 National Safety Congress prior to your employment in 14 1965. 15 A. No. 16 Q. Is that correct, sir? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Mr. Schmidt, we talked briefly about the 19 Subject Sessions. Is it your understanding that the 20 Subject Sessions were the general sessions of the 21 National Safety Congress? 22 A. If you want to call "subject" general. 23 Q. All right, sir. But based upon your 24 knowledge -- and I want to restrict this to your i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 knowledge -- I believe you stated earlier that J 2 generally while general sessions are going on, that 3 usually there will be several general sessions going 4 on at one time; is that correct? 5 A. General sessions generally have things 6 going on concurrently. And I should add that there 7 may be section programs going on at the same time. 8 Q. And, Mr. Schmidt, the National Safety 9 Council has a,Railroad Section, you testified 10 earlier, correct? 11 A. Y e s . 12 Q. And this Railroad Section has an Executive 13 Committee; is that correct? 14 A . Yes. 15 Q. And the National Safety Council has minutes 16 of the Executive Committee going back to the mid 19 17 teens; is that correct? 18 A. That's your statement. The section 19 originated back in the teens as part of the Council. 20 Q. And there are minutes of -- 21 A. There should be minutes available of those. 22 Q. And there are minutes of the Executive 23 Committee of the National Safety Council -- 24 A. That's correct, there should be. i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Q. -- available at the National Safety Council j 2 library? 3 A. There should be. 4 Q. Today. 5 A. There should be. 6 Q. And you have not been asked to produce 7 those -- 8 A . No . 9 Q. -- and authenticate those for this 10 deposition, have you, Mr. Schmidt? 11 A. N o . 12 Q. And the Railroad Section of the National 13 Safety Council has produced a monthly newsletter at 14 least since the 1920s, has it not, sir -- 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. -- based upon your information? -;> - 17 And you have not been asked to produce . 18 today for authentication any of those newsletters. 19 A. No . 20 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE : Tha t 's all I h a v e . 21 MR. WHITNEY : I have -- 22 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE : I have no more questions, 23 Schmidt. Thank you, sir. 24 MR. WHITNEY : Mr. Schmidt -- Sullivan Reporting Company 1 MR. ALDRIDGE: Just a second Off the record 2 (Discussion off the record.) 3 MR. GAVIN: I'd like this on the record, please. 4 MR. RICE: I'm not g o i n g to s t i p u l a t e one way or 5 the other. I t h i n k if a d e p o s i t i o n is take n , you 6 can read any p a r t of it. 7 MR. A L D R I D G E : No, no, t h a t 's fine. W e 're not 8 goi n g to go t h r o u g h h e r e and g i v e the sa m e q u e s t i o n s 9 a g a i n that he jus t ask e d . He ju s t asked., the 10 q u e s t i o n s on b e h a l f of the r a i l r o a d s . 11 MR. GAVI N : All w e ' r e s a y i n g is I can a d o p t his 12 q u e s t i o n i n g as m y own in the I l l i n o i s c a s e s . Is 13 that right? 14 MR. RICE: I don't care. 15 MR. ALDRIDGE: Right. Okay. That's fine. Back 16 on the r e cord. 17 F. S a u n d e r s A l d r i d g e , S e a b o a r d S y s t e m . _ 18 I w o u l d like to do that, and I 19 a p o l o g i z e for i n t e r r u p t i n g w h o e v e r I i n t e r r u p t e d . 20 EXAMINATION 21 BY 22 MR. WHITNEY: 23 Q. Mr. S c h m i d t , in answer to c o u n s e l ' s 24 q u e s t i o n , you i n d i c a t e d that some of the w r i t t e n Sullivan Reporting Company 1 records in the proceedings may have been verbatim 2 transcriptions of the presentations, and others 3 edited, of course. As you sit here, you have no way 4 of knowing which ones may have been verbatim 5 transcriptions, and which -- 6 A. I have no way of k n o w i n g . 7 MR. WHITNEY: T h a t 's all I have. 8 MR. DANIEL B . WHITE : Bill? 9 MR. GAVIN; (Shaking head .) 10 EXAMINATION 11 BY 12 MR. MURPHY: 13 Q. Mr. Schmidt, I'm going to give you 14 Transactions of the National Safety Council, 1948. 15 We've already identified this. This is Page 47 -- 16 A. Oh. 17 q . -- that we talked about, Past General 18 Chairmen. 19 We're having trouble with membership 20 lists except for the past two years, so my questions 21 are going to be directed towards membership and what 22 this exhibit may or may not reflect in membership. 23 Do you know if it is the -- if it is the normal 24 procedure for a Past General Chairman, Railroad i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Committee, to appear for himself individually, or 2 does this indicate that the Pennsylvania System was 3 a member during that time? 4 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Object to the form of the 5 question. 6 MR. DAVID B. WHITE: I object to the competency 7 of this witness to testify to that question of 8 counsel. 9 MR. MURPHY: Q. I understand that you may not 10 know the answer to this question. I'm just asking 11 whether you do in fact know that it is. 12 We can take it in the present day. Is 13 it the practice of the National Safety Committee to 14 have the chairman of a certain section represent 15 himself as an individual, or is he there 16 representing -- or does that indicate also that the 17 organization that he is affiliated with is also a 18 member? 19 MR. GAVIN: I object. 20 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Renew our previous 21 obj e c t i o n . 22 MR. ALDRIDGE: Object to form. Assumes facts 23 n o t in e v i d e n c e , is v a g u e a n d m i s l e a d i n g . 24 MR. WHITNEY: I want to join in that objection. i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 THE WITNESS: I cannot speak to the volume you 2 have. I can recite for you, if you'd like to hear 3 the policy as of today relative to these executive 4 committee officers. 5 MR. MURPHY: Q. Go ahead. 6 A. The present policy, which has only been 7 enforced within the last couple of years, in essence, 8 asks that anyone serving on an executive committee 9 of the section should -- their company or them 10 individually should be a member, is expected to be a 11 member of the National Safety Council. 12 Now, there are a couple of noteable 13 exceptions, the major one being federal government 14 employees, because of some difficulties with the 15 federal government in paying dues to a private 16 assoc iation. 17 Q. Can you tell me what -- 18 A. That policy, I might say, does present 19 certain difficulties of enforcement from time to 20 time. 21 Q. Can you tell me what year that was started? 22 A. I cannot recite a year for you. The policy 23 as given out from our board of directors would have 24 been about three or four years ago when they spelled i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 it out in writing finally. 2 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge, sir, 3 about the years before that what the policy may or 4 may not have been? 5 A. The policy before that was pretty much as 6 what I've stated before, but it was never spelled 7 out and never enforced. 8 Q. In your experience, though, the members of 9 the -- heads of the individual sections were there 10 representing themselves individually, or - 11 representing the companies? 12 A. In terms of representation, as a rule, an 13 individual either will indicate that he is employed 14 by someone and thus representing someone, or if he's 15 representing himself, he'll usually be himself at a 16 home address, a home city, state, with no company 17 name. 18 MR. MURPHY: That's all I have for right now. 19 T h a n k s . 20 MR. RICE: Anyone else have any cross- 21 examination? 22 MR. ALDRIDGE: Mr. Schm i d t -- 23 MR. RICE: You just adopted Mr. White's. You 24 c a n 't go t w i c e . Sullivan Reporting Company 1 MR. ALDRIDGE: 2 question. I did adopt it, but I have one 3 THE WITNESS: 4 let him go. He's been nice about it. We'll 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY 7 MR. ALDRIDGE: 8 Q. I believe that it's Exhibit No. 5, the 9 membership, you took some information off of some of 10 the records. Is that the list of -- 11 A. Is that 5 here (indicating)? 12 Is that 5? Yes, okay. That was the 13 list given to us by subpoena to check over. 14 Q. Yes, sir. 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. The entry of 1918 beside Seaboard System 17 Railroad, I represent to you, sir, that Seaboard 18 System Railroad has not been in existence since 1918, 19 that your records would apparently reflect a 20 membership by some predecessor. Is that -- would 21 that be accurate? 22 A. That is possible. 23 Q. You don't know which predecessor that would 24 be? i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 A. No, I do not know 2 MR. ALDRIDGE: Thank you very much, sir. 3 FURTHER EXAMINATION 4 BY 5 MR. RICE: 6 Q. Mr. Schmidt# what did you do prior to 1965? 7 A. Prior to *65, I was in school. 8 Q. You said earlier to Mr. White that you had 9 some familiarity with the National Safety Council 10 before you came to work. 11 A. U m - h m m . 12 Q. I'm just asking you as to what basis -- how 13 you did that, how you had that information. 14 A. Well, prior to going to school, which was 15 in '62 -- '63, excuse me, I was a schoolteacher in 16 high school, and there were materials which we use 17 in our programs that came from the National Safety 18 Council. 19 Q. So that's the familiarity you had? 20 A. Yes . 21 Q. The microfilm that we have identified today, 22 was that microfilm made at the request of the 23 National Safety Council? 24 A . Yes . L Sullivan Reporting Company 1 Q. And is it kept in the normal course of 2 business by the National Safety Council? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. And was it made by a contractor that the 5 National Safety Council contracted with to make the 6 microfilm? 7 A. I assume. 8 Q. Do you have any knowledge about that? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Are you familiar with the way the library 11 works at the National Safety Council? 12 A. Pretty closely. 13 Q. Are you familiar with the library? 14 A. Y e s . 15 Q. And do you come here on a frequent basis? 16 A. Several times a day. 17 Q. Is there a head librarian as such that has 18 master control over the library? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And her name is? 21 A. Ruth Hammersmith. 22 Q. And when did she come? 23 A . Sometime after I came. 24 MR. RICE: Mr. Schmidt -- that's all. Thank you i Sullivan Reporting Company 1 I have no further. 2 THE WITNESS: I do wish to have a copy of this 3 transcript, though. 4 MR. DAVID B. WHITE: Joe will pay for that. 5 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: No questions. 6 MR. RICE: All right. On the record, 7 Mr. Schmidt will maintain the exhibits that were 8 microfilmed that were marked, he will maintain the 9 original, and I assume they will be found or find- 10 able in the library of the National Safety Council. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 MR. RICE: Mr. Schmidt, you have the right to 13 read and sign this deposition if you so desire -- 14 THE WITNESS: I desire. 15 MR. RICE: -- or you may waive that right. 16 THE WITNESS: No, I'm going to. 17 MR. RICE: All right. You make arrangements 18 with the court reporter to handle that. 19 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Let me simply state on the 20 record again that we have objected previously to 21 Mr. Rice's procedure for providing copies of the 22 microfilm, and of course we object to that procedure 23 for the reasons stated, but if for some reason that 24 is allowed to be attached as an exhibit and used as Sullivan Reporting ComDanv 1 part of this deposition, then certainly we contend 2 we have the right to further cross-examination once 3 that microfilm is available. 4 MR. RICE: I contend that the microfilm is 5 available right now, and there are the copies, and 6 your cross-examination is to take place now if you 7 have any. Those are the copies I'm going to have. 8 MR. GAVIN: Well, that's an absurd statement, 9 given the fact that not all the microfilm is 10 available. 11 MR. RICE: Yes, it is. 12 MR. GAVIN: There's only 15 things here. 13 MR. RICE: That's all I'm having marked. 14 MR. GAVIN: And that's an absurd statement, 15 given the logistics of it. 16 MR. RICE: The microfilm is here, the microfilm 17 that plaintiffs intend to mark and have attached as 18 exhibit -- as part of exhibits to this deposition 19 are here. Cross-examination can be done effectively 20 right now. The microfilm is available, the reader 21 is available, and the witness is available. 22 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Well, we are relying on 23 our previous objection, and I believe you already 24 stated that the copies which you intend to use to Sullivan Reporting Company 1 make your copies of documents which you will use 2 have not even been prepared or in the process of 3 being prepared. 4 MR. RICE: I intend to make my copies from 5 whatever source I have, but these are the copies 6 that will be the accurate copies, and if there's any 7 question about that, that can be resolved. 8 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: When you say "these copies, 9 you mean -- , 10 MR. RICE: The ones that were marked. 11 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: -- these microfilms that 12 are here at the National Safety Council. 13 MR. RICE: Or a copy of those made, which will 14 be the same. A copy is the same as the original. 15 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: We contend, of course, 16 those are not properly authenticated. 17 MR. RICE: And I contend that they are. But as 18 far as your cross-examination, that's what you 19 cross-examine off of, Mr. White. It's available. 20 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: Okay. We can cross that 21 hurdle later. 22 MR. ORLANSKY: For the record, Joe, are the 23 articles that you had reproduced xerographically, 24 are those going to be attached as exhibits? Sullivan Reporting ComDanv 1 MR. RICE: No 2 MR. ORLANSKY: Apparently some of the counsel 3 have available to them -- I've seen one gentleman 4 over here with copies of those articles. I'm 5 wondering how we who do not have those copies 6 available can have them made available to us. 7 Apparently there was some arrangement you made with 8 the other counsel to get some of them copies, and 9 others not, and -- 10 MR. RICE: I have made no arrangements with no 11 one to provide copies of anything other than 12 materials that were marked as part of this 13 deposition, which are microfilmed, which are 14 available from the addresses that we talked about. 15 There was a dep -- there was a document production 16 done in July of 1983 in a Norfolk Southern case in 17 which Mr. White and Mr. Roven came up here and 18 reviewed and copied some materials. That is the 19 only other source of the materials that I'm aware of 20 is what Norfolk Southern has, and I think Norfolk 21 Southern might have made it available to some of the 22 other railroads. 23 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: The copies were made 24 available to me by Mr. Roven in your office. Sullivan Reporting Company 1 MR. RICE: Okay. You all came up to me and got 2 a copy. That was pursuant to a subpoena that we had 3 issued at that time in French vs. Norfolk Southern 4 filed in the United States District Court for the 5 District of South Carolina, Anderson Division. 6 MR. ORLANSKY: However you got them, Joe, can we 7 have them made available to us, a photocopy? 8 MR. MORRIS: We don't care how you got them. 9 MR. ORLANSKY: For the record, I will contact 10 Mr. Rice after I get back to Pittsburgh and he gets 11 back to South Carolina, we'll make arrangements. 12 MR. DANIEL B. WHITE: My name is Danny White, 13 and I.live in Greenville, South Carolina. Anybody 14 can call me there and I'll be glad to provide copies 15 for the copying charge. 16 MR. GAVIN: You're going to make the exhibits 17 part of the transcript? 18 MS. U R L A U B : Yes. 19 MR. RICE: Now, all of them that we referred to, 20 I don't have copies of them, you understand that. 21 MR. ORLANSKY: Whatever you do have. 22 FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NOT ... 23 24 k Sullivan Reporting Company 1 STATE OF ILLINOIS 2 COUNTY OF DU PAGE 3 ) ) SS : ) 4 I, Donna M. Urlaub, a notary public in and 5 for the County of DuPage and State of Illinois, do hereby certify that PHILIP E. SCHMIDT was first duly 6 sworn to testify the whole truth, and that the foregoing deposition was recorded stenographically 7 by me and was reduced to computerized transcript under my direction, and that the said deposition 8 constitutes a true record of the testimony given by said witness. 9 I further certify that the reading and 10 signing of said deposition was reserved by the witness and counsel. 11 I further certify that I am not a relative 12 or employee or attorney or counsel of any of the parties, or a relative or employee of such attorney 13 or counsel, or financially interested directly or indirectly in this action. 14 IN WITNESS HEREOF, I have hereunto set my 15 hand and affixed my seal of office at Chicago, Illinois, this 23rd day of April A.D. 1984. 16 17 18 h /l' 19 Notary Public, DuPage County, Illinois My commission expires April 15 , 1985. 20 21 22 23 24 Sullivan Reporting Company 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT TWENTIETH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT 2 ST. CLAIR COUNTY, ILLINOIS 3 ROBERT L. SHARP 4 Plaintiff 5 vs ) Cause No. 83-L-584 6 ILLINOIS CENTRAL GULF RAILROAD COMPANY, a 7 corporation, ) 8 Defendant. ) 9 AND CAUSES NOTICED IN AFOREMENTIONED JURISDICTIONS 10 This is to certify that I have read the 11 transcript of my deposition taken on the 17th day of 12 April 1984 in the foregoing cause, and that the 13 foregoing transcript accurately states the questions 14 asked and answers given by me, with the changes or 15 corrections, if any, made on the Errata Sheet 16 attached hereto. 17 18 19 \i 20 21 22 23 24 ft Sullivan Reporting Company ERRATA SHEET I wish to make the following changes for the following reasons: PAGE LINE j' SHOULD BE: ~ jKjuJftt*- w L( y ________ REASON: Jr L o J * l ** SHOULD BE: . ^ L S pT ^ . ~ J . REASON: SHOULD BE : ~ C. . (K -~ * s f t ' ^ ! i _ 1 REASON: iL t SHOULD BE: REAS ON : La * 'ftp $julJ>j^ qJ3 J.dJ<^y\ - U l / ^ g SHOULD BE: REASON: SHOULD BE: REASON: SHOULD BE: m REASON: SHOULD B E : REASON: SHOULD BE: REASON: SHOULD BE: REASON: IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF SOUTH CAROLINA COLUMBIA DIVISION ORIGINAL FILED iVAr o 1934 JOHN W. WiLL./u/ij, CLERK C O L U M B I A , S. C, IN RE: ) ) ASBESTOS CASES ) ) ) ) Insulator, Shipworker and Plantworker NOTICE TO TAKE DEPOSITION Z DEPOSITION I EXHIBIT U I SsjL*;Jtt*/dl NOTICE TO TAKE DEPOSITION You are hereby notified that, pursuant to the terms and provisions of Rule. 30 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, on April 17, 1984, beginning at 10:00 a.m. at the Hotel Continental, 505 North Michigan Avenue, Chicago, Illinois, the plaintiff will take the deposition of Phillip Schmidt, Chief Librarian, National Safety Council, 444 N. Michigan Avenue, Chicago, Illinois. This deposition is being taken in a number of jurisdictions as shown on the attached sheet. It is being taken pursuant to the Federal 4 T Rules of Civil Procedure for all purposes allowed by those rules, including use at trial. In cases which this deposition is noticed that are pending in State Courts or a Federal Court with special rules, this deposition will be conducted pursuant to those rules if not inconsistent with the Federal rules. If, for any reason, the deposition cannot be taken in compliance with all rules, a second deposition will be taken specifically for that Court at the same time and place listed above. The purpose of this deposition is to have Mr. Schmidt produce annals of the National Safety Council and other publications present in the National Safety Council library and to authenticate the same materials. The Plaintiff further intends to inquire of the witness any knowledge he has concerning the membership of the National Safety Council. To the knowledge of the undersigned, Mr. Schmidt has never been deposed in asbestos litigation. This deposition is expected to last only four hours but will continue from day to day until completed. You are invited to attend and participate c c * l \ ir Ic ) T W O uiclL & 8 , 1984. r) Respectfully submitted, BLATT & FALES P. 0. Box 365 Barnwell, S. G. 29812 BY: >-L>T\ Jo'seph F. Rice '0 C e NOTICE OF DEPOSITION OF PHILLIP SCHMIDT SERVED IN THE FOLLOWING JURISDICTIONS In Re: Asbestos Cases (USDC - South Carolina) (Insulator, Shipworker, Plantworkei USDC, District of Pennsylvania Lechner v. Conrail, et al C/A No. 82-2301, et al. USDC, District of South Dakota, Southern Division Burger v. Chicago Northwestern Transportation Co. C/A No. 83-4118 USDC, Western District of Kentucky, Louisville Division Greenwell v. Seaboard Systems Railroad, Inc. C/A No. 83-0541-L-A USDC, Eastern District of Tennessee Brown v. Southern Railway Company C/A No. 1-83-280 USDC, District of Utah, Central Division 7 -'V f 7 Tea v.- DenvJfr Sc-'-Rio Grande Western Railroad Co. - ~ C/A.No. C82-1174(C) - . % *0+*-- USDC, District of Nebraska Carroll v. Union Pacific Railroad Co. C/A No. 83-0-615 USDC, Southern District of West Virginia at Huntington Judd v. The Chesapeake & Ohio Railway Co. C/A No. 83-3035 USDC, Eastern District of Pennsylvania Scholl v. Conrail and The Reading Co. C/A No. 82-1685 < Circuit Court, Twentieth Judicial Circuit, St. Clair County, Illinois Pease v. Illinois Central Gulf Railroad Co. C/A No. 82-L-1012 USDC, Western District of Virginia, Roanoke Division Palmer v. Norfolk & Western Railway Co. C/A No. 83-0282-R USDC, District of Maryland Davis v. Western Maryland Railway Co., et al. C/A No. N-83-4 USDC, District of Maryland Yergan v. The Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Co. C/A No. H-83-1231 USDC, Middle District o Florida, Jacksonville Division Grimsley v. Seaboard System Railroad, Inc. C/A No. 83-880-Civ-J-12 CERTIFICATE OF MAILING This will certify that the undersigned today placed in the United States Mail, postage prepaid, copies of the within ____________________________ ________ n o t i c e t o t a k e d e p o s i t i o n ________________ ___________ to the below listed counsel: Robert A. Patterson, Esq. P. 0. Drawer H Charleston, SC 29402 William H. Grimball, Esq. 39 Broad Street Charleston, SC 29402 Henry G. Garrard, III Esq. P. 0. Box 832 Athens, GA 30603 Mark Wall, Esq. P. 0. Box 953 Charleston, SC 29402 Joseph H. McGee, Esq. 5 Exchange Street Charleston, Sfe 2^4QL**- Robert H. Hood, Esq. P. 0. Box 340 Charleston, SC 29401 Robert R. Carpenter, Esq. P. 0. Bex 551 Rock Hill, SC 29730 -James W. Alford," Esq. P. 0. Box 11206 Columbia, SC 29211 N. Heyward Clarkson, Esq. 800 First Federal Bldg. Greenville, SC 29601 Charles Wofford, Esq. P. 0. Box 10207 Greenville, SC 29603 James B. Pressly, Jr., Esq. Dewey Oxner, Esquire P; 0. Box 2048 Greenville, SC 29602 W. H. Arnold, Esq. P. 0. Box 10045 Greenville, SC 29603 Donald Cockrill, Esq. P. 0. Box 2757 Greenville, SC 29602 R. Bruce Shaw, Esquire P. 0. Box 11070 Columbia, SC 29211 H. Edward Smith, Esq. P. 0. Box 248 Barnwell, SC 29812 Rembert D. Parler, Esq. P. 0. Box 3544 Spartanburg, SC 29304 Michael Duffy, Esq. 141 East Bay Street Charleston, SC 29401 _ .. - Thomas S. Tisdale, Jr., Es< Post Office Box 993 Charleston, SC 29402 Gene Lewis, Esq. P. 0. Box 1473 Columbia, SC 29202 George Nicholson, Jr., Esq P. 0. Box 489 Lexington, SC 29072 Jimmy Wilkes, Esquire P. 0. Box 8002 Savannah, GA 31412 A <* SCDC/al/3-21-84/51 , 1984 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT TWENTIETH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT ST. CLAIR COUNTY, ILLINOIS ISABEL S. ROSER, Administratrix ) of the Estate of BEN P. ROSER, ) deceased, ) ) Plaintiff, ) ) vs. ) ) ILLINOIS CENTRAL GULFRAILROAD ) COMPANY, a corooration, ) ) Defendant. ) Cause No. 82-L-1011 'CNd*TICE TO TAKE EVIDENCE DEPOSITION TO: AND: ILLINOIS CENTRAL GULF RAILROAD COMPANY Richard E. Boyle, Esq. Gundlach, Lee, Eggmann, Boyle & Roessler 5000 West Main Street, Box 692 Belleville, Illinois 62222 Attorney for the Defendant DATE, HOUR & PLACE: Tuesday, April 17, 1984, at 10:00 a.m. ^The Westin Hotel (Continental) 5-0-0 N. Michigan Ave. Chicago, Illinois WITNESS TO BE DEPOSED: Phillip Schmidt Chief Records Librarian PLEASE TAKE NOTICE that at the above stated date hour and place I shall cause the deposition of the witness above stated to be taken on oral interrogatories, pursuant to the Illinois Statutes and Supreme Court Rules governing depositions, before a suitable Notary Public, at which time any party or their attorney may appear and cross-examine if they may see fit. KUJAWSKI & ROSEN PROOF OF SERVICE KEHSEfinltlfWldaesrsslegrnveeddcueprtoinfietshethaatttoarcnoepyys aotf trheecofrodreogfoianlgl pIanrittritoa- tfQidfltrh.eessaebdotvoesuccahusaetstorbnyeyenscalot stihnegirthbeussinaemsse ainddarnesesnavseldoipse closed oy the pleadings of record herein,iwlthypostage fully Bregeid and by depositing said envelope In'a 01$. Post Office Wall Sox In Belleville. Illinois, on the. .day of Johji ^'"'Kujawkki 64 0d Jffe^T^-MaijDJStreet, Suite 3A Belleville, Illinois 62223 (618) 397-8047 Attorneys for the Plaintiff Copy to: ^/Sullivan Reporting Company (312) 782-4705 C -1 c IN THE CIRCUIT COURT TWENTIETH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT ST. CLAIR COUNTY, ILLINOIS ROBERT L. SHARP, ) ) Plaintiff, ) ) vs. ) ) ILLINOIS CENTRAL GULFRAILROAD ) COMPANY, a corporation, ) ) Defendant. ) Cause No. 83-L-584 ICE TO TAKE EVIDENCE DEPOSITION f TO: ILLINOIS CENTRAL GULF RAILROAD COMPANY AND: Richard E. Boyle, Esq. Gundlach, Lee, Eggmann, Boyle & Roessler c 5000 West Main Street, Box 692 Belleville, Illinois 62222 Attorney for the Defendant DATE, HOUR & PLACE: Tuesday, April 17, 1984, at 10:00 a.m. The Westin Hotel (Continental) 500 North Michigan Avenue Chicago, Illinois WITNESS TO BE DEPOSED: Phillip Schmidt Chief Records Librarian PLEASE TAKE NOTICE that at the above stated date', hour and place I shall cause the deposition of the witness above stated to be taken on oral interrogatories, pursuant to the Illinois Statutes and Supreme Court Rules governing L >i c depositions, before a suitable Notary Public, at which time any party or their attorney may appear and cross-examine if they may see fit. KUJAWSKI & ROSEN PROOF OF SERVICE OmBenCt rWideesrss!egrnveeddcueprtoinfietshethaatttoarcnoepyys ooft trheecofrodreogfoienllg pIanrsttireus ttQSfttrh.eesseadbotvoesuccahusaetstorbnyeyesncaltostihnegirthbeussinaemsse ainddarnesesnavseldoipse cQlloXsgeadldbayndthbey pdleepaodsiintginsgosfairdeceonrvdelhoepreeIinn-.a^lUth$'Pf.oPstoqs&t sOfffuilcley H al Box In Belleville. Illinois, on the. day ^. >. Kuj^wsM 6406^-West M&jj1Street, Suite 3A Belleville, iTTinois 62223 (618) 397-8047 Attorneys for the Plaintiff Copv to-. S(u3 l1 2l)iva7 n8 2 R- 4e7p0o5rting Company C i STATE OF ILLINOIS INTHE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE_ 20th________ JUDICIAL CIRCUIT ST. CLAIR COUNTY -\ c ROBERT L. SHARP, Plaintiff, vs. I No 8 3 -L -5 8 4 ILLINOIS CENTRAL GULF RAILROAD COMPANY, a corporation, Defendant. SUBPOENA FOR DEPOSITIONJ To: Phillip Schmidt, Chief Records Librarian National Safety Council, 444 N. Michigan Ave. Chicago, IL 60611 You are commandedTtohaeppWearetsotigniveHyooutredlepo(sCitioonn bteifnoreenatnaolta)r,y j>u0b0licNinorrotohm no. .at. M ic h ig a n A v e . , C h ic a g o ______ ________ (Insert name of building, address including city) Illinois, on T uesday, A p ril 17 ______________________ IQ 84 at 1 0 ; 00 A. M. YOU ARE COMMANDED ALSO tobringthefollowing: and to produce to plaintiff* sattorney certain instruments of writing purporting to be or indicate the membership history of the corporations, companies or railroads listed on the attached sheet which is incorporated as Appendix "A". 'our possession or control. YOUR FAILURE TO APPEAR IN RESPONSE TO THIS SUBPOENA WILL SUBJECT YOU TO PUNISHMENT FOR CONTEMPT OF THIS COURT. (Seal of Court) WITNESS,. March:26 -,19. 84 .^JC. BARNEY METZ (Clerk/)f tj ^jrcuit Court) X /(Deputy)- I served the subpoena by handing a copy to___ ~ U on. ______________________ 19________I paid the witness g 3 0 .0 0 17 .for witness and mileage fees. Signed and sworn to before me , 19 (Notary Public) (Plaintiff's attorney or plaintiff if he is not represented by an attorney) Name John P. Kujawski/John D. Roven_____ rney for P l a i n t i f f _______________________________ Address 6 4 00 W est M ain S t . , S u i t e 3A_________ c.ify B e l l e v i l l e ______________________________________ Telephone (6 1 8 ) 3 9 7 -8 0 4 7 ___________________________ APPENDIX "A" Railroad Companies Illinois Central Gulf Railroad Co. Chesapeake & Ohio Railroad Co. Norfolk & Western Railway Co. The Southern Railroad Company Burlington Northern Railroad Co. Chicago and Northwestern Railroad Co. Seaboard Systems ^Raiplroad Co., Inc. ,-jr Louisville & Nashville Railroad Co. Penn Central Transportation Co. Consolidated Rail Corporation National Passenger Railroad Corp. (AMTRAK) The Reading Corp. Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Co. Denver and Rio Grande Railroad Co. Western Maryland Railroad Co. Union Pacific Railroad Co. Missouri Pacific Railroad Co. Southern Pacific Transportation Co. I Non-Railroad Companies AC&S Inc. Armstrong World Industries Benjamin Foster Co. (Amchem) Canadian Johns-Manville The Manville Corporation Carey Canada Celotex Corp. Combustion Engineering, Covil Corporation Eagle-Picher, Inc. Fiberboard Corp. Empire-Ace Co. Forty-Eight Insulations, Inc. TAF Corporation Garlock, Inc. H. K. Porter, Inc. J. R. Deans Co. The Keene Corp. Lake Asbestos National Gypsum Corp. North Brothers, Inc. Owens Corning Fiberglas, Inc. Owens-Illinois, Inc. Pittsburgh Corning, Inc. Raymark, Inc. Rockwool Manufacturinq Co. * APPENDIX "A" (Cont.) Non-Railroad Companies Standard Asbestos Co. Turner Newall, Ltd. U.S. Mineral Co. Vinasco Corp. Southern Textile Co. Turner Asbestos Fibers, Ltd. Bell Asbestos Mines Asbestos Corp., ,, $* Nicolet, Inc. - Metropolitan Life Insurance Co. -> - I