Document zzKvDwdYKzNKrnr5gL0NyJpO3

1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE TWENTIETH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT 2 ST* CLAIR COUNTY, ILLINOIS 3 FRANCES E. KEMNER, ET AL*, 4 Plaintiffs, 5 vs* Case No* 80-L-970 6 MONSANTO COMPANY, 7 Defendant* 8 9 IO REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS 11 August 2, 1985 12 13 Before the HONORABLE RICHARD P* GOLDENHERSH, Circuit Judge 14 15 16 APPEARANCES? 17 Mr* Rex Carr and Mr* Jerome Seigfreid, Attorneys at Law, on behalf of the Plaintiffs? and 18 Mr* Kenneth Heineman, Mr* John R* Musgrave and Mr* 19 Joseph Nassif on behalf of the Defendant, Monsanto 20 Company* 21 22 Kathleen Watson Brunsmann 23 Official Court Reporter 24 .1 INDEX OF WITNESSES 2 Galled on.behalf of the Plaintiffs: 3 JOSEPH METCALF 4 Clarification Examination 5 (By Mro Heineman)........ 2 6 - PHOCION PAJRK 7 Cross Examination Under Section 2*1102 8 (By Mr* Carr) 9 Clarification Examination 10 (By Mr* Musgrave}*.............. 147 11 12 INDEX OF EXHIBITS . 13 Defendants Ex* No* t 1' , ,, Marked for l.D* *Admitted into 14 931 15 , t ,r 3 <* < * Evidence 5 16 Plaintiff's Ex. No. 17 * 18 1542 19 1542- 1543 20 1543-A 21 1544 1545 22 1546 23 1547 1548 24 1549 Marked for I.D, 31 31 " 51 51 64 _ 64 65 69 113 117 Admitted into Evidence 31 32 51 ' v : 52 65 65 66 114 148 w> BE IT REMEMBERED AMD CERTIFIED, that heretofore, 2 on to-wit, August 2, 1985, the matter as hereinbefore set 3 forth came on for hearing before the Honorable Richard P. 4 Goldenhersh, Circuit Judge in and for the Twentieth Judicial 5 Circuit, and the following was hadtof-record,to-wit: 6 7 8 JOSEPH METCALF, 9 having previously been called .as-a witness under 10 Section 2-1102, having previously been sworn, continued clarification examination as follows; 13 CLARIFICATION EXAMINATION (Continued) 14 THE COURT: Okay, gentlemen 15 BY MR HEINEMAN: BAYONNE, N.J. OTOOl * 16 aO Q Mr Metcalf, when we broke yesterday afternoon 17 we were talking about this meeting at EPA Headquarters in 18 Kansas City, Kansas on January 26, 1979. Do you recall that, 19 sir? A Yes* - Q And subsequent to the meeting, sir, were there some minutes prepared of the meeting? A Yes. Q And by whom were they prepared? .2 1 By Region 7 EPA. 2 Q All right, And were they sent out to the people 3 who were in attendance at the meeting? 4 A Yes, `'l --` 5 Q And did you receive a copy'of them? . 6 A Yes, it. 7 Q And did you review them? J~ 8 A Yes, / C 1 ,l` 9 Q ` nd did you approve them? 10 A. Yes. 11 MR. HBIHEMANi Would you mark that please. 12 13 (Defendant Monsanto Exxhibit 931 was marked 14 for identification by the court reporter.) 15 16 Q (by Mr. Heineman) Sir, let mehand you whatfs 17 been marked as Defendant's Exhibit 931, and ask you to examin 18 that and identify it for me, please. 19 A This is the EPA report with a cover letter of min 20 to -Inside Monsanto Distribution, and with the Attachment 21 that were a part of the EPA report* 22 Q All right, ' By the EPA report, are yot; referring 23 to the minutes that you talked about a moment ago? 24 A Yes. I Q And the second page of Exhibit 931 is what, sir? 2 A Are you speaking -- referring to the page that 3 has January 25, 1979 ;a t .the top? . + ij ,r y* ' '* 4 Q No, sir. ;To the second page 6 the exhibit 5 itself. i 6 A Oh, I'm sorry. That is my cover letter to the 7 file regarding the minutes of thistmeeting. 8 Q And the first page is what, sir? 9 A I beg your pardon? 10 Q The first page of the exhibit is what, sir? 11 A The Internal Monsanto Distribution. 12 Q That you had made 13 A Yes. 14 Q -- of this report? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q Now if I could direct your attention to the first 17 page, or excuse me, the second page of the exhibit, which 18 is your memo, dated January 31,. '79, and the second paragraph 19 of that memo -- 20 MR. CARRs .Excuse me, Counsel. Do you have a 21 copy? 22 MR. HEINEMANs Oh, certainly. I'm sorry. As a 23 matter, of fact, your Honor, if Mr. Carr has no objection, 24 once he has read the exhibit, I would ask the Court's permiss to have it admitted as a Defendant's Exhibit and passed to 1 the jury so that they could follow along whenrthe witness 2 is testifying about'it*' 3 MR, CARR? `'I have ho'objections, your Honor. 4 THE COURTS; -Fine.' Then-it will be.admitted at 5 this time by agreement. 6 v '* -. - ; MR, CARR: I think portions, of it are already in .7 evidence as Plaintiff's exhibit, if n o tthe entire document, 8 your Honor. 9 MR. HEINEMAN: I can't reach you, Judge. 10 THE COURTS Thank you. Okay, Mr. Heineman. 11 MR. HEINEMANs I was*just giving the jury a 12 chance to look it over for a minute, Your Honor. 13 r THE COURT Why don't you proceed now.- 14 15 MR. HEINEMANt All right. Thank you. 0 (By Mr. Heineman) - Now,Mr. Metcalf, the second 16 page of the exhibit which contains your ememorandurn to the 17 file, are there some additional comments that you made 18 19 there, sir? A Yes, sir. 20 21 Q And why did you add those comments? 22 A I didn't feel1that they were reflected in the 23 EPA minutes, and I thought it would be information that our 24 people would like to have. 1 Q All right. And other than those comments, was. it 2 your feeling that the;-report was-accurate and substantially *4 ,, ; 3 complete? - ' 4 A Xes. .l ' '* / \ 5 Q All right, sir. Now, the very first paragraph of 6 the added comments that you made relates to some conversatio or apparently comments by Roland Miller; is that right, sir? 7 8 A Yes. 9 0 And he was the vice president -- was he the vice 10 president and general manager of Western Environmental 11 Services, the clean-up.contractor? 12 A Yes. 13 Q I'd like you to -- to' refer you to the last 14 sentence .in that paragraph, sir, where it states, They did 15 not receive it and,in fact, didn't learn of the 200 parts per 16 million cutoff on excavation until the day before the meetingk 17 over two weeks after cleanup was started." Did I read that 18 accurately, sir? 19 A Yes. 20 Q What is it that you are specifically referring to 21 there? 22 A The decision that EPA said they would have to 23 remove all material that contained over 200 parts' per million 24 of phenols Q And was there -- do I understand it to be correct 1 >, ^ t* * * f that Western didnrt learn Of]that'until the day before the 2 January 26 meeting? 3 A That's what-they* said vatr this meeting. 4 Q All right, iNowi had. clean-up been going on out 5 V1r - ^ '' *H there as reported at this meeting prior to the time when 6 western learned of this 200 parts per million level? 7 A Yes. About two weeks. 8 Q All right. Now let me directyour attention to 9 the next page of the exhibit, sir, which has the date January 10 26f 1979 typed at the top. There's a purpose stated there; 11 12 is that right? A Yes. 13 Q Whose purpose was that? 14 A 1 believe that's the EPA's purpose* 15 Q The purpose of the meeting? 16 A Yes. 17 18 Q And this meeting was called bythe EPA? 19 A Yes. 20 Q In Item 2 it says "Presentation of Analytical 21 Data, EPA, Western Environmental Services and Discussion" 22 Was that item of the agenda performed at the meeting? 23 A Yes* 24 Q Okay. What was presented by the EPA sind Western V i' i- '. '. 1 ( . - Environmental Services? ' `1 ," L h/ ' *- - ,, A Analytical:data o n 1total phenols, on samples that had been taken in a specific series, I think of six series, X think that had been taken Sometime;before the meeting. Q Now, the fourth item on the agenda,' on that same page states "Approach For Continuation of Monitoring," does it not, sir? A yes. Q Was it discussed in the meeting as to whether or not monitoring had already been going on at the clean-up site? A Yes. Q Who had beendoing it? A Monitoring,EPA had been monitoring the efforts of Western Environmental Services* Q And what sort of monitoring -- well, under that paragraph it says "Approach for Continuation of Monitoring, Air, and Soil at the Spill Site." Had there been air and soil monitoring going on by EPA prior to that time? A ~ X believe so. I'm not a hundred percent sure about air monitoring, but certainly soil monitoring. Q Now, if you go to the next page of the exhibit, there's an EPA Press Statement, is there not? A Yes. Q And I'd like to direct your attention" to the third 81 1 paragraph of that Press Statement, and the second sentence, 2 where it says, "The ai.f will be monitored on a. 24-hour basis and analysed daily.n Do you see that, sir? 3 4 .A ^es. 1 v i Q All right. Now what's that -- had that been goin 5 6 on according to what was said in the meeting by the EPA? A I'm not safe* It says that there will -- they - 7 8 will begin on the 29th and will continue until clean-up is completed* 9 10 Q All right* A There had been air monitoring that Monsanto did. 11 12 I 'm not really sure how much EPA had done, 13 Q All right* But according to this, was the EPA 14 going to be doing it -- who was going to be doing themoni 15 toring on a 24-hour basis and analyzing it daily, according 16 to your understanding at the meeting? 17 A EPA, 18 Q All right* And Harry Gilmer, the EPA chemical - 1.9' engineer, was the on-scene coordinator; is that right? 20 A That's correct. 21 G Now, what does that mean, sir? 22 A .Well, it's my understanding that he is the one i 23 who was given the responsibility of saying the work was 24 progressing satisfactorily, and that when it was finished, it 1 would be clean. The state of Missouri, had deferred to EPA 2 on this, and apparently Western Environmental Services and i \r , 3 the railroad had also, ; j - 4 Q Wow, the next paragraph on that same page states 5 nEPA will continue to analyze samples of the soil as it Is 6 removed by Western Environmental Services.1* To your knowledg* 7 sir, as it was reported,in the meeting, was-the EPA doing 8 that? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Was that the split sampling thing we talked about il yesterday? 12 A Yes, 13 Q And the last paragraph of this EPA Press Stateraen 14 says, "The cooperative effort by the railroad, its cleanup 15 contractor and the government agencies will help mitigate 16 this unfortunate environmental accident as quickly as 17 possible, said Gilmer.** Correct? 18 A Yes* 19 Q Was any discussion of that sort had in the 20 meeting itself on January 26th? 21 A Yes. 22 Q All right, wow, if I can direct your attention 23 to the next page of this -- of these minutes, specifically 24 to paragraph three of the next page, where it says, "All 1 I K( p > f ' K_ \ fp ' ; 1 cleanup operations including analytical monitoring are the 2 responsibility of the spiller;",correct, sir? 3 A Yes, sir* 4 Q What was discussed at the meeting on the 26th 5 with respect to that subject, if anything? 6 A I am not sure X understand your question I'm 7 not sure I understand your question I'm sorry* 8 Q All right Let me rephrase it Was there any 9 discussion at the meeting with respect to who the spiller ' 10 was, and who was assuming responsibility for the clean-up 11 operations and the analytical monitoring? 12 A Yes, there was discussions 13 Q .All right Nov; what was that discussion? 14 A Well, it was generally agreed that the prime 15 responsibility for clean-up of the spill was the railroad, 16 and that Western Environmental Services was retained by the 17 railroad to clean up the spill And that EP and the 18 Missouri Department of Natural Resources had to agree with 19 the clean-up method, and that they would work with the others 20 in developing, the proper clean-up method. 21 Q All right NQw the next sentence there says, 22 "EPA will restrict its monitoring activities to those areas 23 it believes to be necessary to protect the environment during 24 cleanup operations and to insure that the cleanup is complete 1 in a satisfactory manner;" Do-you'see. that, sir? 2 A Yes.' 3 Q Was there- .any discussion at the meeting about 4 that subject? 5 A . I think it was -- X don't remember specifically 6 what was said. Butthe'gist of it was that th basic respon 7 sibility for collection of samples and of analysis would be 8 Western Environmental Services. The EPA would monitor''enough 9 of those analyses to convince themselves that the work done 10 by Environmental Services was sufficiently' accurate, and 11 that they would concentrate in areas where they were concern 12 ed about possible public health effects. 13 Q All right. ,,I'm interested in that last phrase, 14 "that they would concentrate in areas where they were 15 concerned about publicJhealth effects." Is that what the 16 EPA said at the time? 17 A I believe so. 18 Q Now who was the spokman? Was that Harry Gilmer? 19 A X believe so. I'm not1sure,' but I think so, 20 Q Now, if you turn to the next .page, where the 21 minutes themselves actually begin, right under the heading ` 22 "Background" there, there's a paragraph where it introduces 23 someone named Bill Rice. Do you see that, sir? 24 'a Yes, sir 1 Q Now, how many people were at this meeting on 2 behalf of the Environmental Protection Agency? 3 A I believe 13a 4 Q All right Now, how did that relate to the 5 number of people representing other organizations all put 6 together? 7 A I think there were 12 others* 8 Q All right* 9 A All tOtala 10 Q Now -- 11 A ,Twenty-five at the meeting* 12 Q If I can direct your attention to two paragraphs 13 after that, sir, there's a paragraph that begins with the 14 name Steve Sisk* Now he, I guess, was another EPA man that 15 was there* 16 A Yes* 17 Q They talk about their samples being collected frc 18 shallow holes between the rails arid between the ties* The 19 collection holes were approximately 12 inches deep. Eight 20 samples were collected, one x*as collected east of where the 21 spill began and seven were collected in the spill zone itself 22 And it talks about them being collected by EPA and Western 23 and being split* Right? 24 A Yes 1 Q Now there is a map here, sir# which is Attachment 2 3 to this exhibit. It's the.last page. Do you see that# 3 sir? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Does that# according to what was discussed at 6 the meeting# show the locations where the collection holes 7 described in that paragraph we just read were done -- 8 A Yes. 9 Q -- were made? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Now they're talking about -- farther down on that 12 page# the following chart shows the results of the analyses 13 of SPA and of Western Environmental Services; correct# sir? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Now what do thesenumbers have to do#ESG1Q1# 16 102, 103? What do those sample numbers have to do with the 17 location reflected on the map? 18 A Well#ESO101 is Sample 1. ESO102 is Sample 2# 19 and so forth. 20 Q All right. ,So that they -- if the numbers on the 21 map are 01# 02 through 08 -- 22 A Yes. . 23 Q -- those correspond totheseresults that are 24 stated on pages -1 and 2? 1 A That's correct* 2 Q All right* Now I'd like to direct your attention 3 to page numbered 2 of the exhibit# sir. 4 A Of the exhibit?. 5 Q I'm sorry. Page numbered two of the minutes* 6 A Oh, I'm sorry. 7 Q I misspoke. That page right there*' It's the 8 one that's got the drawing of the railroad track. 9 A Yes.' 10 Q " About here. RightJbelow that drawing it states, 11 "Problem - not having puddle or frozen substance but a liquid 12 on ground," does it not, sir? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Now what was discussed at this meeting on January IS the 26th, .1979 with respect to there being a liquid as 16 opposed to frozen material? 17 MR. CARR: Your Honor, I object to any such 18 discussion. It's hearsay. He can report what's in this 19 memo. But I object to anything this witness might say as to 20 what was said at that meeting.' , 21 MR. HEINEMAN; Well, your Honor, we've been 22 talking for the last 10 minutes about what the discussions 23 were at the meeting. 24 MR. CARR:, ;i*m objecting at this point in time because of the nature of the-comments. It's hearsay* 1 THE COURT: Objection is sustained. It is hearsa 2 Q (By Mr. Heineman) Sir,was it apparent from 3 the meeting itself that Western and the EPA were aware -- 4 .MR. CARR; rYour Honor, I object to that. That#s 5 another way of doing 'that which he may not do directly, and 6 1 object to it. 7 THE COURT; Objection is sustained. It is the 8 same. 9 Q (By Mr. Heineman) Who was the one -- was there 10 anyone at the meeting who discussed the statement set forth 11 as a problem there? 12 A One of theWestern Environmental Services people. 13 Q. All right. .And the minutes here reflect that 14 there was a problem because it was a liquid on the grond? 15 A Yes. 16 Q All right. Did that Western Environmental 17 Services person who mentioned the problem of there being a 18 liquid on the ground -- 19 MR. CARR; Your Honor, I object. 20 Q (By Mr. Heineman) -- know that there was a 21 liquid on the ground? 22 MR. CARR; Would you wait until I finish my 23 objection. He is now- saying the same thing indirectly again 24 that he cannot do .directly . 1-//. /. 1I l THE^'COURT,! Objection is sustained. 2: \ Mr. He ineman,'l'm admonishing, you/not to ;do that* 3 '' q (By Mr. Hinmn)' Ali right. Lt's look at two 4. ^ ,paragraphs1-down from there# sir.;/ There1s another problem 5 listed there, is there not? r 6 . . A _ Yes; /, . /'v ' ` \ _ ,. ; ., , .- ; : "7 Q Y It says/running into large; volume of material,*1 '8 correct,, sir? -9 A ' -Yes. - .; - /k ^ 10 1, u\ ry I? IIj1J J4 Q '- . If thisJis, in th minutes, can we assume that / there was a discussion V~ . . . - , % 'MR. CARR:, Your Honor,'I object to that .The \r r r ,i jr W ' r *- 1 minutes speak for themselves*, Counsel persists in doing .that which'he knows is improper... f :, j, *toc 15 rJ 16 3OO , 17 1 P E N G AO CO...BAYONNE.. N.J, 2 z2aS p o U*02o< F 18 ' 19 20 i21 " 22 ' 23 >- 24 : .THE COURTi, Objection is sustained. 1 Q (By,,Mr. Heineman) Who was it, sir, that was making a .determination of what the.clean-up methods would be? A" * * There-were several methods that were considered 1 -/ 1 - by-Western '--/that were proposed* X ,think* by Western Environmental, Services, and one off those methods was agreed to between EPA and the Department of Natural Resources of Missouri/ and. th railroad/ filiti srry, / e p a >; DNR and the . railroad/ .Y .7 ' / V ' 'Y . 17 - ' `J.; . tr , , ' -v /"/ v v ` -YV v' " ' -v * ,Y ' 7 - . . .' . - i .: i r;; '.T iti-.V1V. i**,'.t/,t.'-V?.<*; {: . i- . Q And Western? 1 2 A Well, Western proposed them. 0 I see. Now which method was that, sir? 3 A A method that involved drumming all of the 4 material* that was picked up, that contained more than two 5 6 hundred parts per million of phenol. And shipping it to a landfill in Wichita, Kansas. 7 Q Now, let me direct your attention, sir, to the 8 next page of the exhibit, which, has the number three at the 9 10 top of it* Do you see that? 11 A Yes. 12 Q In that first incomplete paragraph at the top 13 of the page, the last sentence says, "After they started 14 dealing with 200 pars per million figures, they went back 15 to the beginning and started over;" is that correct, sir? 16 a yes. 17 Q Whose activity isbeingreferred to there? 18 A The clean-up crew, western Environmental Services 19 Q And did they have to go back and start over 20 again once that level was set? 21 A Yes. Becausethey didn*t knowwhat the level 22 was. They had not confirmed- at thatppoint in time that they 23 had reached that level* ' V 24 0 If I can direct your attention to the page rj , "i - 1 numbered five in those minutes, the numbers at the top* X 2 direct your attention to the fifth paragraph of that page 3 where it says* "Western Environmental Services asks could 4 the level be 200 to 300 - they would have to go back to be 5 beginning to reduce level to 200*" Do you see that, sir? ' A Yes, 'r 7 Did Western dispute this 200 level in some way? 8 A Well, X Don't know whether dispute is the word* 9 Apparently some of their areas where they sampled were, you 10 know, close to 200, but below 200 They thought maybe they 11 could save some time on the clean-up if they were given a 12 little more leeway 13 All right* Did the EPA hold firm, however? 14 A Yes* r 15 Q 'And demanded 200? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Wow, sir, I M like to hand you, if I may, sir, a 18 document that Mr. Carr had marked,.called Plaintiff's 1536, 19 yesterday* Do you recall discussing that document with Mr* 20 Carr? 21 A Yes* ` ; ''': h ' ; V > ,, r'' \ - 22 Q Now, doesvthis document, sir, reflect the 23 > / : j* qualitative core analysis results that were done by Monsanto? 24 A Yes* f *` p t ' * " . - V .. ' :, : - .i. 1 Q And the date of this document is January 16, 2 1979, is it not, sir? ' 3 A Yes* 4 Q Ten days before the-meeting in Kansas City with 5 the EPA? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Did the EPA and WesternEnvironmental Services 8 know that not all of the phenol and OCP had been removed from 9 the track as of January 26, 1979? .* 10 A Did they know that not all of it -- 11 Q Yes. 12 A ,, Yes, they knew. 13 Q As a matter of fact, :':they lowered the level to 14 which it would have to be done; isn't that right? 15 A Apparently. 16 Q And Western would have to go back and start over 17 again? 18 MR* CARR; Objection to that, your HOnor* 19 Leading form of the question. 20 THE COURT; Objection ;is sustained, would you -i r i , -3 J ^ * !r '* i j- 1 21 rephrase the question. ; 'V \ :. 22 Q (By Mr. Helneman) Would Western have to go back 23 and start it over again? v ' 1' 24 A They indicated .that rat/the-meeting. 1 Q So clearly -- 2 MR, CARKs Object to the leading form or the 3 question* . 4 THE COURTi Rephrase it please. 5 Q (By MR* Heineman) whether or not -- may 1 ask 6 you, sir# this, were these six samples, these, qualitative 7 results, discussed at the meeting on January 26, 1979? 8 A I don't recall* 9 Q At that meeting, did western and the SPA have 10 quanitaiive sample results? 11 a yes* , 12 Q Of thematerial thatremained in the track? 13 A Well, ofsamples that hadbeen taken during the 14 clean-up* yes* 15 0 Did they need qualitative sample results as to 16 whether there was a smell? 17 A No* , 18 MR* HEINEMAN* I have no other questions, your 19 Honor >r: ^ ;; \ 20 THE COURT; MRo' Garr,do you have anything 21 further? 1,, t '*( r ; J i > *.f 22 -r - - <\ v . *' i MR* CARRs Nothing, your Honor. 23 THE COURT; ypu m a y ;step, down* Thank you,sir* 24 THE WITNESS* Thank you. 1 MR. CARRs I call Phocion Park as an adverse l' witness* 3 (At this point a short recess was taken) 4 5 PHOCION PARK# 6 having previously been called under Section 2-1102# 7 having previously been sworn# testified further 8 as follows ,9 10 CROSS EXAMINATION 11 BY MR* CARR: 12 Q Mr* Park# you understand -- your Honor# for the 13 record# this is a recall of Mr* Park# as an adverse witness 14 under that section of the rule that I keep forgetting* 15 1102# is it? 16 TH COURT 1102. 17 , MR* CARR 1102# formerly known as Section 60, 18 I can remember that* 19 THE COURT Always to be. known as ;Section 60* 20 MR. CARRs ..Having used it for about 38 years# 21 or 35, whatever. i* p -i 22 Q (By MR* Carr):- Mr*, Park# of course you understand 23 that you are still under oath. 24 A Yes* 1 Q I'd like to hand you some exhibits that I want 2 to get your agreement on. I' hand you what's been marked 3 Plaintiff!s Exhibit 1149, and ask you to look at that and confirm that that was dated April the 5th, 1979* It has 4 attached to it tables that show the presence o TCDD in the 5 products produced at Monsanto, and specifically the third 6 page of that exhibit shows that of the 2,3,7,8 in the 7 2,3,7,8 column, in parts per billionjthat there are 8 respectively, 23 parts per billion, 25 parts per billion, 9 180 parts per billion, and 240 parts per billion of products 10 identified In the Chlorinated Phenol Department, Santophen 11 and Chlorinated Phenol* H MR. MUSGRAVE': Objection to the question as repetitious. He's been through this exhibit before 13 MR. CARR: I know Ive been through this exhibit, 14 your Honor, and not with this witness. And this is a - 15 predicate to another point that I wish to establish. 16 THE COURT: You may proceed. Go ahead. 17 THE WITNESS I didn't "follow you,!,Mr. Carr. I > - ?u /< , / -* 1 i< r 18 don't see that column here. 19 Q (By Mr. Carr) The last page attached to the '!,, \ j > - ,,> - 20 document. `Do you see the column 2,3,7,8 -- Cl^ 2,3,7,8? A Yes, I do see ;that. t: 21 Q All right. Now the figures that I read appear in 22' that column, do they not, sir? It tiras values on the 2,3,7,8 23 isomer. 24 A I don't recall the figures you read, Mr. Carr. 1 Q Well, I'll read it again That column shows that in the chemicals produced in the Santophen and 2 Chlorinated Phenol Department, 23 parts per billion in the 3 2,3,7,8 column, 25 parts per billion in that column, 180 4 parts per billion'in that column, 240 parts per billion in 5 that column Isn't that correct, sir? 6 A Mr Carr, I'll have -- this is the first time 7 I've seen this exhibit. I'll have to study it a moment. 8 I see the numbers that you read. They are in that column 9 headed CI4 2,3,7,8. I cannot make out the wording over on the left-hand side of this chart. 10 Q Well, Mr Park, you don't need to, because those 11 are batch numbers that have previously been identified as 12 products in the Chlorinated Phenol Department, in Plaintiff's 13 Exhibit 1135. I don't know whether I went through it with 14 you, but I went through it with other witnesses The 15 Monsanto Numbers 654, Monsanto Numbers 697, two of them that 16 are 697 there, all have been* identified as chlorinated 17 phenols. And specifically Santophen in the one .instance, I believe, and .1 know;2,4-Dichlor6phnol`in the Number 697* 18 So at any rate, what I'm asking you to 'agree, sir, is that 19 this exhibit reports on the 2,3,7,8 isomer as identified in 20 the Santophen 1 and chlorophenois as I've related it to you, 21 as I've read to you, 22 A Mr* Carr/ looking at the, heading which says, 23 Environmental Sciences Data on Santophen 1 and Chlorophenois 24 Q Yes. 1 A. - I can then look down the column and read those 2 numbers that you had. That's as much as I can tell about this document. 3 Q Well, that'-s all that I want you to tell about 4 this document. ( 5 A All right. 6 Q That I have correctly read the figures that appear 7 in that column under the 2,3,7,8 heading. 8 A Yes, there are other figures. But these four 9 do appear in the column* 10 Q The other figures that appear there re all non protected; is that right, sir? 11 A ' Yes. . 12 ' Q The only affirmative figures in the batch 13 entitled 654, you have 23, and 25 parts per billion of 14 2,3,7,8 respectively, and in the batch enumerated 697 you 15 have 180 and 240 parts; per billion respectivelyt 16 MR. MUSGRAVES' Object to the. question, which 17 misinterprets the document.and misstates prior testimony 18 with regard to the document, with5regard to what the column 19 means, in connection with labeling of this ,2,3,7,8 and what the document itself says down at? the'bottom. 20 THE COURT: Objection is overruled. That objec 21 tion has been made and denied before. 22 Q (By Mr. Carr) Do you see -- Sthis is a later 23 j table taken from Exhibit 1135, and, Mr. Park, I don't want 24 to make a big thing of it, but do you see the 654 there, on of the batches described? 1 A Yes. 2 Q. All right. And you see the Cl^ numbers over 3 there? 4 A Yes, I do. 5 Q That are all joined in on column? 6 A Yes. 7 Q The Cl^ that you have in that exhibit are in two 8 columns, 1,3,6,8 et al., and 2,3,7,8; isn't that correct, sir A .Yes. 9 Q And if youraddthosetwo columns together, you JO get these figures, do you not, sir? 11 A Let me see, Mr. Carr. , 12 Q . Could you get 1135 out.* 13 A They don't appear to be identical. But I suppose 14 they'd be in the same ballpark. i. J r -F 1 15 Q And if you will and^ to; help you, so you don't r ' . \ >, ' h, '' -1 16 have to strain your eyes, you can look at 1135*B. 17 MR. MUSGRAVEjv I'm sorry, what'did you say, 1135-B? 18 MR, CARR: That,'s correct , L ; 19 A (By Mr. Carr) Also look at 1135*C, because it 20 goes to those same two values. 21, A These two columns in this first document -* 22 Q Mr. Park, I haven't asked you a question yet, and 23 I appreciate if you wouldn't mark the court's exhibits. 24 A I'm sorry. I Q Could you erase your maries, please. 2 A Sorry, My eyes are not what they were years ago* Q Now,.if you look at 1135-C, it breaks those -- 3 .it is a typed duplicate of the exhibit that's attached to 4 1149, or at least part of it. Now on 1135-C, in the typed 5 portion, do you see related to MB 654, the findings of 23 6 and 25 parts per billion in the 2,3,7,8 TCDD column? Right 7 here, Mr* Parks. Did you see the same figures appear in 8 the ApTil document that appear in this later June document, 9 Exhibit 1135? 10 A 1 do see these numbers. Q All right* You also see the other numbers that 11 are in the 1,3,8 -- 1,3,6,8 column, et al., don't you, sir? 12 For that MB -- 13 A Only in thse "two cases,* 14 Q That's all- I'm asking, Dr. Parks/ 15 A Yes, I do see those, numbers. . r1 i , * ^ \ ^ 16 Q And it is repeated ini the June 26,*. 1979 document, 17 those handwritten figures that appear on the April 5th, 1979 18 document with relation to the batch that I just described 19 to you, and for your information, the batch MB 654 has been previously, described as parachlorophenol. No*/, the next 20 I want to direct your attention to the batch 697, sir. 21 You see 697? 22 A I see that. 23 Q Has the figures of 180 and 140 parts per billion 24 in the 2,3,7,8 TCDD column? 1 A Yes. Q And those are the same figures that appear in 2 the handwritten exhibit of April 5th, 1979 in that same 3 column; isn't that correct, sir? 4 A That does appear to be, yes. 5 Q Yes. Again for your information, MB 697 is 6 2,4-Dichlorophenol. Now, Mr. Park, you, of course, recognise 7 that 2,4-Dichlorophenol and parachlorophenol are products 8 manufactured by Monsanto, do you not, sir? 9 A If you say they are, I accept it, Mr. Carr. I 1 10 not that familiar -Q Mr. Park, I am not a witness in this case. 11 A Yes. 12 Q The only,knowledge that I have is from witnesses 13 and exhibits that have come to ray attention in this case. 14 You are an employee of Monsanto. I'm not going to be put 15 in the position of telling.you anything in that regard. If 16 you don't know that 2,4yDichlorophenol and parachlorophenol. 17 is a product of Monsanto and was a product in 1978, *79, 18 please say so, sir. A Mr. Carr, I beiieve-1> recall that' 2 -- I*m Just 19 not that certain. Can I check on this? 20 Q Mr. Park, don't you recall that we spent 21 days cross examining you about 2,4-Dichlorophenol and whether 22 or not you're going to report to TSCA,,under the TSCA Act, 23 report to EPA that your 2,4-DichloropheAol had 2,3,7,8 -- 24 A I do. 1 Q Don't yon recall we spent -- . ' .Yes,1 , *''. 2 3 Q -- just'this springs a few months ago -- 4 We did manufacture 2,4-Dichlorophenol. Q You recall that, d o n 't you, sir? 5 A I recall that, yea* 6 7 Q J And - .. 8 A The other was para? 9 Q Parachlorophenol. 10 A I 'm sorry, I just d o n 't remember* 11 Q Parachlorophenol is what you use to make Santo* 12 phen* You know that, don' t ,you, ,Mr. Park,? j, - fi r r* i; I , *1 ft l * \ S ' .J i '*.r ' , u- - "r J t* 13 A Mr. Carri ''i'.o sorry) but X, doa't.:: ; - 14 Q Well, Mr*.Park -- t " ** " f .* J , * ' * 1 ^ \ 15 A That's not vomethihg I keep up with. 16 Q , Mr. Park, you- will1 ac'Spt therexhibit that 17 describes these chemical as chemicals in the Santophen and, 18 chlorophenol? Do you accept that Monsanto Document? ' 19 W o n 't you, Mr. Park? "- j" I 20 A . Which document are you speaking of? 21 Q The April 5, 1979 document that I handed you at 1 22 the outset, sir* 23 A Well, it speaks of chlorophenols. 24 Q Yes, that's what I 'm asking you, sir. 1 A - I 'm sorry, -- 2 Q ' Do you recognise parachlorophanol as one of Che 3 .chlorophenols? Do n 't you sir? 4 A I don't recognize it but I guess I can assume 5 that it is one. 1 6 Q Now, Mr..Park you in your position at least 7 in your position in 1979 as one of the attorneys for 8 Monsanto, you had responsibilities with regard to what the * 9 public was to be told and what the public was not to be 10 told about Monsanto's products did you not sir? 11 A I would be asked to submit comments on proposed '** rj j ^ .1 1 t r 12 released on occasions , . ; 13 Q Mr. Park, This exhibri.t, dated.June 6, 1979 ia 14 in evidence and you recognize that it talks about dioxin 15 concentration in PCP and ,0PC x r u d e . Do you see that, sir? J* - ,1 ,T , - <.f ^ 16 A Y e s . 17 MRv MUSGRAVE: Give me the exhibit number 18 please. 1 - 19 MR. CARR: I 'm sorry, Mr. Musgrava, it's 1249 20 and 1 can give.your witness the court's exhibit. Would you 21 mark that as another exhibit? 22 Q .' (By Mr. Carr) You recognise, Mr. Park, do you 23 not that that Table 2 -- have you got it, Counsel? 24 MR. MUSGRAVE: I have it. Thank you. 1 Q ( By Mr. Carr) All right. 1249 reports the 2 dioxin concentration In parts per million in PCP, OCP and 3 2,4-Dichlorophenol, 4 A Yes 5 6 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1542 was marked 7 for identification by the court reporter.) 8 9 Q (By Mr. Carr) I hand you now what's been 10 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit 1542, and ask you if you recog 11 nise that you are listed there as one of the recipients of 12 that Monsanto document? 13 A Yes, I am. 14 MR. CARR: I offer 1242 and what will be marked % 15 ' 1242-A into evidence, if it please the Court. 16 MR. MUSGRAVE: Object to the document, relevance, 17 materiality, no probative value. 18 THE COURT! Objection la overruled. 1542 is 19 admitted over objection. 20 21 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1542-A was marked 22 for identification by the court reporter.) 23 24 Q (By Mr. Carr) 1542 is a blow up of -- 1542-A 1 is a blow up of 1542, is it not, sir? .j' *. 2 A I believe it is, yes\ 1 ft 3 MR. CARR: I offer 1542-A into evidence, your 4 Honor. 5 MR. MUSGRAVE: Same objection. : 6 THE COURT: Same ruling* I 'll incorporate your 7 argument. . = r. . 8 Q . (By Mr. Carr) Mr. Park, this is a memo prepared "v 9 by someone in your press or public relations department, Is 1 10 It not, R.t. Neunreiter?- j. Jl!- 1_ ' i'- ** ri,. * ' *, * 11 A Yes. Someone In Monsanto's - - y e s , h e 's in , 12 Monsanto's Public^ Relations Department. 1 - ' 'i 1 t* 13 Q And a number of people, according,to this list, 1J^V 1F t 14 received copies of this; response to the Post Dispatch . .(\- 15 reporter,:did they not, sir? 16 A Yes, they did. 17 Q - ' You were one of those recipients, were you not, BAYONNE, N.J 18 sir? . * 19 'A Yes. .-v 20 Q Mr. Park, according to this exhibit1there had 21 been, a n d t h e jury knows about it, and I don't think y o u 've/ 22 been Interrogated about it except in passing by Mr. Musgrave, 23 about the OSHA detection of dioxin In the chlorophenol unit 24 at Krummrich. Do you recall that press ...'.release that you > 32 ] all put out lu June? h , ftiis. 2 MR, MUSGRAVE: Object^ relevancy, materiality, ! 3 and also, repetitive* , 4 THE COURTt Objection ia overruled* 5 Q C By Mr, Garr) Now, this press -- it says that 6 the reporter was told, and that reporter is Roy Malone of 7 the Rost Dispatch do you know Roy Malone? ' 8 A No, I do not. 9 Q Never met him? * ; - - 'i 1 ^ . i ,' 10 A Not that I'can recall/" 11 Q All right/.' In'any event, it says here that he 12 was told on June 9 1979 specifically that our analysis 13 of a recent product sample did1hot indicate'the presence 14 of 2,3,7>8 dioxin/ Do you sea that, sir? 15 A , Yes, I do, 16 Q Nov in point of fact, that isn't the truth, 17 is it, sir? 18 A I,don't know, Mr. Carr* X would assume that it 19 is, 20 Q If the exhibit that' you have, that was dated 21 April the 5th, 1979, two months before this press release, 22 that exhibit indicates the presence of 2,3,7,8 TCDD in your 23 product sample, does It not, sir?' 24 MR. MUSGRAVE: Object, your Honor, Mr, Carr is 1 referring to samples that have:dates that are not recent* 2 The document talks about recent product samples, which is 1 3 June not the dates of the products that he's identified* 4 TEE COURT* Do you have anything you want to gay' 5 MR. MUSGRAVE: Misleading the witness and 6 rmisleading the Jury as to what the document says* 7 MR* CARRt No, your Honor. 8 THE COURT*: We-have plenty of .exhibits that show 9 as 1135 shows product samples In June and thereafter that 10 hiad TCDD* ' \ *' / 1 /. ? -j ^, 1' ** f^f L 11 MR. MUSGRAVE* Then why did you identify -- 12 THE COURT* l?Let him finish, .Mr. ^Musgrave. 13 MR* MUSGRAVE* February, March exhibit. 14 THE COURT: Mr. Musgrave, I said let him 15 finish* Mr'* Carr, you may proceed. ^ 16 Q (By Mr, Garr) How, the -- 17 THE COURT* The objection is overruled. 18 Q C By Mr. Carr) -- the sentence of what the 19 reporter would want to know, because the OSHA release deals 20 with sampling.that was conducted -in February of *79 where 21 there waa a spill that took place in the plant. You recall 22 that? I: w on't get into details with you. 23 MR. MUSGRAVE: Object to the question as suggest 24 ing as to what the sentence of. what the reporter wanted to 1 know, which requires the state of mind as to others, as 2 to vhat they did or didn't do, or want -- fv , i 3 THE COURTJ Objection Is overruled* I don't 4 think It calls for the state of mind. 5 Q (By Mr. Carr) Mr. Park, the Information that 6 you at Monsanto gave to the public at large through Roy 7 Malone and the Post Dispatch, was that your product .sample ;i :' -- t- ' ' 8 did not Indicate the presence of 2,3,7,8 dioxin. 9 MR. MUSGRAVE: -Object to It. I t 's a misstatement '^^ , * 10 of what the document says.' It says a recent product sample. 11 THE COURT: >O\b?j;ectiionv. Is ov.errule*d.. 12 Q (By Mr. Carr) Isn't that correct, Mr. Park? 13 A As the question waa phrased, I rd have to aay no. 14 Q You'd have to say no? W a s n 't the reporter told 15 that, exactly what it says here, that the analysis of the 16 recent product sample did not Indicate the presence of 17 2,3,7,8 dioxin? 18 A That Is correct. 19 Q And Is there any statement there that any 20 analysis did indicate the presence of 2,3,7,8 dioxin? 21 A There is no statement on this paper that so 22 states. 23 Q Would you as a reasonable person, if you read 24 that, wouldn't you be lead to believe that Monsanto has 1 checked Its material and this OSHA release talking about 2 dioxin in the products is somehow at fault, faulty, or false 3 and that, in fact, Monsanto doesn't have any products that 4 has 2,3,7,8 dioxin in It, wouldn't you read that as a rea 5 sonable, person, Mr. Park? 6 MR. MUSGSAVBi- - Object to the question as calling ')'11$-'i ''1 "' \\r st|^, ",i\ , ^" - ".t` 7 for speculation, conjecture,,, And; vague and. indefinite, 8 using a legal term, or1potential legal term of reasonable f i,, , j 9 person. v >r l* * 10 THE COURTS -Objection Is overruled, -V : - V- ` ?. - 11 Q (By Mr. Carr) How would you read that, Mr* 12 Park, if you wouldn't read it that way? 13 A Just simply that a recent analysis of a product 14 sample did hot Indicate the presence of 2,3,7,8* I would 15 not read it more broadly to go any farther. 16 Q If I understand you correctly, if you had one 17 recent product that was sampled, and if that one sample 18 ' didn't show 2,3,7,8 In-l.t, that that's all youre really 19 saying there* Is that the way you interpret that? 20 A It doesn't, say only one has been done. All it 21 says is that an analysis of a recent product sample did not 22 indicate the presence of 2^3,7,8 dioxin. 23 Q Then if, in fact, you had a recent product 24 sample that did not Indicate the presence of 2,3,7,8 TCDJ3 in BTONNE. N.J, 07002 F O R M IL 24 B 1 f 2 34. I5 6 7, -8 9' 1 " II 12 13 1.4 15 J 6\ 17 . 18 19 20 r 21 22 23 24'! that gamp i e>, this statement would- be technically correct, wouldn' t' it , sir? r, * '-/ A:' 'Yes;^ . ^ `-" _. Q 'Even though you might have,'a thousand' other pro-] A <? ,>.wi duct 'samples tested ;that ;'ll;:of ;,which;:shQwed;'the-prgenc ofl L'; V f; ir.-i- V~V-VV :2 #3,7,3'TCDD;-isn't rht correct, sir?!- r '. 1 - / - *mJ- .**.,jl4r * H- i-** V^""-'j1'-j-`nI'S:^ *i-?*"^i J --V1 T-i*1J 't'"J . t 1( ^ h A , The stat emnt'^Vw.o;ld,,'s t i l l `.br,e 'l/-.c.:or^rect.-', : ;? - Q J All -right* .. And when you' read that press " 'i*2'r: fY \ -,'A` , -v 1j ' i* i ' >"- ^r;1,:* 1-il rielesse, did you have in mind that well, what he was told, if we have a single sample that shows no 2,3,7,^8 TCDD, then . r- .r . L \ L'i- j < ' . ' , , \ ' what the press was,told, and what the,vpubllc is ultimately'' told, was correct,- and.,w 're not misleading anyone? -Was.thatl 1 1 . "^v " r"'- '* r ,> ** your view, at- the time'-you saw that , s i r ? s*' " r '* ^ rr ' r A 'I t 's certainly possible that I might not have ever/' seen .this, even .though I 'nr named as one to whom it < j* * . ' - . ^'` f r^,,,\ . 1. '1 i1 - t' ;would have Veen .sentV Mr. Carr*- 1 don' t `t 'mv. not in a ' " position to J read everything that.comes i n t m e , Q L Mr, Park,/I'm not asking you whether you s p e d - * > 'V r .< -' .4 - f' 1 . vr ( * fically remember r ,dn?t remember- reading this* I 'si asking] you whether ;or not you-would Interpretthat,, and I admit' "; there's no concivbie% a y - a t *this point in time you could remember .whether you did or .did-not get this presss release ; that occurred some six years ago. You would have a fantastl memory if.^ou could-remember itv 'I'm not. asking you whether 37 1 /you do or do n o t 'remember. I Tm asking you sir, would you . 2 .interpret that press release as being correct if you had a 3 product sampling that showed no 2 3,7,8 TCDD; although you 4 had one hundred others or one thousand other product sampling 5 that showed the presence of 2,3,7,8 TCDD? 6 M R . MU SGRAVE i,, Ob jectsto th ejques tlon . It ass ume i 7 facts not in evidence.for the witness to.speculate with 8 regard to. '' ' 9 THE COURT: : Objection is overruled. 10 THE WITNESS: Recognizing that this may not 11 describe everything covered in th conversation between 12 Neunreiter and Malone, I would think this sentence, just 13 as it says, and I would feel it would be technically correct 14 if there were a number of analyses that found dioxin, and 15 yet as he says, a recent product sample did not indicate 1 i' 16 the presence of 2,3,7,8 dioxin. That may have been the 17 question* 18 Q (By Mr, Crr) I'm sorry?. 19 A rThat may hve been the question, 20 Q I take it then that you agree that this would 21 be appropriate response to make if you knew that you had 22 99 tests that showed 2,3,7,8 TCDD was there, and you had 23 one test that showed It wasn't there? 24 MR. MUSGRAVE: Same objection. 1 Q "(By Mr. Carr) la that correct, sir? 2 THE COURT: Same ruling. 3 THE WITNESS; I'm not saying that, Mr. Carr, no* 4 Q (By Mr. Carr) Well, isn't that?reaily what you J1{ 1 1" J'` h", , ' r 1 v *f\ 5 are saying, Mr. Parle; because you know, and w.e have ample 6 documentation here t o s h o v that 2,3,78 TCDD, or that which 7 coelutes with 2,3,7,8 TCDD, has been In your products and 8 remains in your products'up until,\ o h j '82, at least, if my 9 memory serves me correctly, that you at Monsanto knew that 10 all during this unbroken period of time? You Itiiew that. 11 MR. MUSGRAVE; Object to the question, your h Honor, he's asking the question about what he would have 13 done in June of '7.9, and than'ho challenges his answer by - 14 talking about analysis and events that occurred after June IS of '79. It's an Improper question to challenge the witness 16 with. I object to it. 1 17 THE COURT: Objection is overruled. It's a 18 proper question. , You may proceed, Mr* Carr. 19 Q (By Mr. Cart) Assuming that Monsanto tested 20 its products, its Santophen, recent Santophen, and we have 21 those going down from *78 and '7.9, and those exhibits I 22 d o n 't need to show you, but they're here in evidence, and 23 showing the presence of 2,3,7,8 TCDD, or that which coelutes 24 with It, and that you had all that knowledge, teat after tea P 1 indicated that, do you consider that this is being fair and 2 honest with the public?-- 3 MR, MUSGRAVE:/ Obj act-' to.the question -- r ' |t r; 1 *i V1 1 ^ i (f F \ |. * 4 MR; CARRi 'M I finish it'Counsel? 5 MR, MUSGRAVEr 1/thought you were," Excuse me. 6 THE COURTS Go ahead, Mr- Carr;. v` 7 Q (By Mr. Carr) i-- by saying,t o .them, making no 8 mention of t h e numerous tests that you had, including this 9 one that1we*ve just discussed in April of '79, making no L:' - 1 , .' i ,i 10 mention o f ,the numerous tests that you conducted showing i . t, H 2,3,7 , 8 TODD; or that which looks like'it, and you had i _ j, 1 -a 12 other teste that showed there w a s n 't any? Do you think this 13 is fair and honest when you say that there w a s n 't any in tbii , ... i; 14 sample? ', i 15 MR. MUSGRAVE: Object -to the question, a multi- f 1,, ,,f- b ! 16 pie question. Object to the question as assuming facta not i ' r 17 in evidence, making references to analysis in '78, which 18 there's no vidence showing detectibl: TCDD in these 19 p r o d u c t s a n d object to the use of the term "numberous tests -1 ,v * 20 of product showing this prior to June of '79," which is * I1 21 totally Incorrect 22 THE COURTi Objection is overruled- I t 's a k r. 23 proper question and based on matters In evidence. Answer 24 th question, please, 1 THE WITNESS: Mr. Carr, this paper here was not 2 provided to the public. This Is an Internal communication. 3 It does not purport to describe everything that went on In 4 the conversation between,Neunrelter hnd the reporter. I 1v . i** . 5 have no way of knowingrany. reason that this is not correct. 6 The reporter may well have asked the question, "i^ave you 1 i |k . - . ," -r 7 made a recent product sample analysis that did not indicate 8 the presence of 2,3,7,8 dioxin." Neunrelter could have 9 answered, if that was the case, "Yes, we have made such a 10 recent product analysis,"and then so stated here. II "Q J (By Mr. Carr) Mr-. Park, to refresh your memory 12 as to the June 8 news release OSHA's finding, what it said 13 was that OSHA had detected 300 parte per billion in the 14 2,4-Dichlorophenol of what they thought was 2,3,7,8 TCDD, IS or half of which they thought was 2,3,7,8 TCDD, and also 16 discussed.findings in a wipe sample finding TCDD there. 17 Monsanto put out- a press release saying fhat they have 18 checked these products down to 10 parts per billion,at a 19 detection level of 10 parts per billion and haven't found 20 it. That's the press, release that was put out. Now the -- 21 MR. MUSGRAVE: Object, your Honor. Counsel 22 speaks-- because it Is a mischaracterizatlon of the evidence. 23 The news release he "has reference to speaks to, quote, a 24 recent product sample, close quotes. That is a deliberate 1 misrepresentation by Mr. Carr. It's totally inconsistent i' . 2 with this document. ;- 3 THE COURTi Objection is overruled. 4 Q (By Mr. Carr) How, the reporter in this cir- 5 eumstance is getting more specific* He wants more informs- 1 >k ( - 6 tlon than the press release gives, does he :not, sir? 7 MR, MUSGRAVE: Object, speculation and' conjectura 8 as to what the reporter is doing or not doing. 9 THE COURT: Objection is overruled. 10 Q (By Mr, Carr) I s n 't that correct* Mr. Park? 11 A I d o n 't know, Mr. Carr. He may have Just felt 12 that this question was not answered by the press release 13 and wanted to raise it. 14 Q Well, Neunreiter says all these questions were / IS answered 'from the prepared question and answer form* This 16 'is* he kept to the prepared question and answer that was 17 supplied or prepared by him to answer these questions. But 18 in this Instance he deviated from it somewhat* He went 19 'more precisely and said a recent product sample did not 20 indicate the presence of 2,3,7,8 TCDD, of dioxin. How, Mr. 21 Park, the thrust of my question here -- 22 MR. MUSGRAVE: I object to Counsel's speech. 23 He just made an affirmative statement of fact. That was 24 not posed as a question. And i t 's testimony by Counsel as 4 P E N G AD CO,'. . B A Y O N N E , N . J . 0 7 0 0 1 * FORM, .IL. 14 8 1 2 3\ 4' 5 '6 7 rT 8 \J 10 V ': 12. I - 13 t :4j,, is'; 16, 17 18--. 19. 20* 21 22* 23 ' 24 -/ - vf - ' 1 ` 1 .'r, '-*' i m i. J \ ~*r,-, r * ... y >- r . , iv ` 'i . J ,-i - T*, - ' I-' --ii,1 %r-1 .* ,:1 fv. ;,,,k `Jf, *->r i ' rj ' M to vht Mr ,Ngunre ite r>was doing o r not idolngrwith regards v4 to the t, questions ;and`'.nevera It*a >, ' _ -v V, ^i ','r- to.t..avllyl' Improper ;^7 for > / -' _). i'j't"v~' * J",'V' \,, j> 1 Counsel to't ostif y a n d -maRe `concl'usion?ry rs,tat ewaata I 1 0bJoht. to .it and reqditr.lt^he stricken* . .* "' *>_ >-<-r "ti: J. -,>yi'iif-" <,,1 >*s *?" - / .THE .COURT: Mr* Carr* ploase finiah your quea~ . '-lV - V V* i tion and then 1*11, rule* - * * r- . \ . rr. ' Q r1 , (By Mr * Crr) In that framework,Mr* 'Park*do ;.'r .\J - Jt. * > ; ^ kh ' 1 k. ^. j., .s 1 you not agree that this;reprter,,wanting,more apecific information ,waa given.Information that would be'totally mioleading? <'' i ^ .V - ' ',J;l ; W , ^ y; MR MU SGRAVEj Object to the quest ion'because it ^assumes a franeworkV that M r . *Cafr> has ''testified to rather than any[fwitnessV and. Mr* Gerr 1, /therefore testifying a % ;to what this reportr was,,doing or not. doing; .or :what MrV ; Heunreitor Vas doings t-not `doing*. *, ^ that* ^ There*s/no evidence' o '> * ' ' / / , " '" 4 Z *" ' . ^ 4 THE,..COURT V .ObJ ec tion :is overruled Properly '';: preparatory to,th question, and the question as a whole*. `) Answer, th questibn, pleaee, Mr. Park. '. '''r ,.-v ;, 1. THEWITKES'S t' --N, I.don'tftgret w i t h t h a t , Mr * Carr. .' -"*' J^ '* J ' Q . (By.lit;* -Carr)- From this document, does it. '4 "l( .4 1 \ * _ ^ . 1__V .J.1 . ' Jb ' . indicate; that., the-public and the. press'were told the entire >:i. facta, that ie that'you did cample and you did have samples 43 'v'-'\vj-'*'. V" * (' i ' 7 .$ *V ^ . * ', ' - I >Vi 1.1 4*V.-*. 1 >1 ^t *1 r. M rf:'v iM > ` - t , JI* - '* ,.k'1''V. ' . , ;[ '''?i;Ji,v,'j1`:>1i; -i`t ' U 'r''V1 \ , . - . . , ' -'*5Ai A "} AsA `[" ! ' V k S > i 1 -analyses that showed -the presence -- ' Indicated the presence v :^ V-"; ^ V. 2 ' of 2,3*7,8 TCDD? *' V :i p v-'\ f ( ;4 \ -* ; L" , i 'l*v A A ^ AJ A - 1 p ; w - 3 MR. MUSGRAVE: Object to the question. It call ; j r f,jf < i - i; !.* 4 for speculation and conjecture as to' what 'the other question^ 5 .were that were responded to as set out in this*, and there's 6 . ho foundation laid that this witness.knowswhat the other- - .. ,, u '.-v v 1 p .. " . t ;v* 1: - questions were that were asked* what the response were that ^ - L 7 ^ > J'"', -1 " 1 1 8 were given, and so it'o pure speculation and conjecture to 9 . try a n d a n a w e r that question*. .iL ' ' - 10 ! THE COURT*A objection ia overruled > ."'Answer T *l ,. ?\ * % 11. the question p lease.;L ,-f . " A . * 12 '1 13 1 14 r THE WITNESS; ' The document indicates that there was a lengthy conversation .between Neumreiter and kthe . reporter,.and that a number' of other questions.were asked 15 , / if 'i6; 17 and answered.' . p \ * ` . p. ; 1 Q , (By Mr. Carr) Well, that really isn't what I 've 'r ' i k ' ^ , 'j '' \ *" asked.you, sir. I've asked you doesn't this document - L BAYONNE, N.J. 18 7 suggest .that, from what'-you see there, unless you have some 19 additional facts that .yoti haven* t told- us about, o r some, .20 ' 'additional knowledge,of what, went on at this press confer one a, 21 he answered questions based upon the prepared question and 22 -answer,jwhich didn't,talk about 2,3,7,8 TCDD being there as 23 found by Monsanto, and then he was told specifically that ^ j 24 .. the recent product sample did not, indicate the presence of ' 44 - BJtrOWrvE. N.J. 0 7 0 0 1 FORM IL n o 1 2, 3. .4 5 6 '7 8' 9 10 11 12 13 *4 15 16: , 17 18 19 .` 20 21 22 23 24 *f'r C V;.} C'l y'': A .J ' ll i-- L ...,, ';' j -- ''>f>-*>1v' , 'j . r,-v**-.,/1 ;; i- i ' ' , 2,3,7,8, Don't you consider .that, sir -misleading in view ,, 'V ,.*!? ' 'ry\ " .T,; 1'f.< \ ; ' ' : v \- 1 t ` J s i r i . i- 1 '` of-the knowledge that Monsanio' had that'it- dld-have evidence or indications of 2,378`';i>,elng /in it s .product? - , -> * . ; * \ *- MR, MUSfeRAVEs Object to the question as calling for conclusion, speculation, vague as to what -the document suggests,..impropeVr 1"q'u'es*tion `fo'.r ^t"his witn-ess, _ *-V THE COURT: -Objection is overruled. *. , THE WITNESS: Mr * *Carr , as ,you phrased it, I'll - :<r', *. * -i j r /- 1 . s * ' i have to answer that;question no, Q, ' (By Mr. Carr) All right', 1 That's your Judgment, and if you got .this, document and read it, you,. Mr. Park,'; would not have called Mr. Neunrelter-and said, ."Look, youire not being candid; and y o u 1re misleading the ,public and the piress, you better call .up the Post Dispatch, call up" Roy M a l o n e 'and- toll him^that while we id have\.r ecent. product' ' , ^ * 1 ,i * * ' J 1 sample analyses th a t ,indicate, no 2,3,7,8* TCDD, w e 've, got < other,analyses that do indicate the presence of 2,3,7,8 TCDpV" Since1you have the frame of. ind that you Just answered to,, you, rp course, would not tell Neunreiter to do that, would you,'sir?' -1- - j'i , \ \y " ;, r* ., , 'A , ; If ,his conversation, had been totally correct . with the.reporter and he informed \the reporter and answered all of his questions .properly,-there would.be no reason to; ,J ' . ,, V* 1 -^ r -r '/ , ' 1 q Weil,,"but'If he-doesh't tell the reporter that / 45 -i*".jf" > i1 .*j -*([<', V J- r 1 . { ' .' \ J, 1 '. , . v , ' . . ivv. !v.1 ,;:'*vvLl lCv."(-Wl-/p--. ;.V si {*' ,,.J v -/- i, - you did -- , if he tells "the reporter one tenth Jof the story, ' i" - ^ ` ,, j \, -2 youi ve got 9 .tests thatj show,. 2,3,, 7y8\and one that doesn'1 'J . . 1 - A." i ' 1 - If f ' V., t V i f 3 .-Show it, h e 's not telling the whole-story, is he, -sir? 4 -- A . He.may Have "told .him the rest* -5 i 6 Q - Now ya d 'ra speculating -- I-gave you MR..MUSGRAVE:. 'You're asking for the speculation 7 .8 : Mr'. -Carr*'-1 - ,;~'V -' ! THE COURT: Objection is overruled. 9 Q (By Mr. Carr) ,;-I gave you the hypothesia-, Mr.'- 10 Park, based' on what we know was1 in the press release, and 11 , ,whatLwe know* is here,/and there is no mention o f ,237,8' . 12 . > 13 14 found by Monsanto. 'That1s the hypothesis I 'm asking you to. accept',..sir ' J-- . s , f. , v . \ V ' 1 *- ' * ^ ; * . MR. MUSGRAVE: :N6w I object, your Honor, ' . -r 15 because he? srchanging" horses .\ On the one hand h e 's talking 16 about & ntimber of questions^ that'Roy Malone posed, and: now , 17 he talks about a press release. He* s' changing horses. 18 . , > , THE COURT I r.,0bj ectibn-is overruled'. V 19 MR. MUSGRAVE: - I pbjeet to .the question as being 20 an improper question 3and1 that- it be stricken. ' j 21 THE1COURT:* Objection is overruled. The . 22 question is proper.: JAnswer, the' question, please. 23. THE WITNESS:- I do n 't see that there1sranything - 24 rt H ^ -, , i i ', . in here that;is improper.' '46 F OR M IL` Z* B BAYONNE. NlJ. 07001 r v: M- i r * v . * \ ; v ' * vnL- i" v </,^ r j;" * -VI ra t.' '"V- + ^ 'r * / 'Jy,. / >' 1 r-i . V T -1 ^.` 1 t (^ Q (By Mr/Carr)} !In;/vlW._'-of the knowledge that 2 Monsanto had as to the,''presence of. 2,3,7,8 TCDD, you believe 3 that it is proper, to give the impression that Its products 4 , do not contain 2,3j7 jS'lTCDB; is that correct# sir? Could '5- 6 s' 7. you answer that question specifically so that we could pass - . L y-, . ,.i ; ^ on# Mr. Parle.' k V-' J* \ j A . I 'd trying? to now"reconstruct your question. 8 ' , You're asking do I foei -it Is proper/or improper? - 9 - IU viev/of the knowledge that iionsanto had -that, . 10 i t a p r o d u c t did# indeed, have 2,3,7#8 TCDD'in it. ,, 11 12 !1 13 . ' :: ^ MR. MU S G R A V E V -Object to the-question as improper^assumption of facte-with regard to this point in time, .June of *79 'V. . j 14 THE COURT! Objection.is overruled. PENGAD CO.. BAYONNE, N.J . 0 7 0 0 1 FONM I U 1* B . 15 16 *' "> THE W I T N E S S , Based on' the knowledge t have, 1. kj- * * 1 1*< ' r " _ ^ h y f + k. - j( > ( 4* ./ ' -l 1 this was an appropriate-information.document here/ tha t . / 17 18 - -Q v - - .(By Hr; Carr)- And based upon the -knowledge that " * " 4 .r t-<.:-v ,,- T ' * 1<_i . j ak Monsanto bad as well;~is that correct, Mr. Park, in your, 19 judgment? - 'V ;/,V . 20 - , ' A . " For him to' prepare this' internalmemorandum, / 21 -22 communicative,, whatever?' / :v Q No. rFor him. to .tell.the press and the public,, 23 at large that 2,3,7,8 TCPD v a s not/found in a recent product 24 \ ample, Mr. P a r k . Y o u k n o w exactly what- I 'm asking., 47 J> ., - i - ,"v ,-* />-* - V i . W i- ``s " 1.1 \r 't' \ i*"" i 1 ' 1 i ' - .j -.`i,* >" < `'/J-t'-i i'% . i' ' Y ' rV ' v * -5 J X see nothing Improper in that* 2. . ' ' Q 3 -A l a that. correct', sir? ' I see. nothing -improper,-' , \ . 4 ' Q' L A l l 'rightV .Wow, Mr. Park, let me hhnd you a 5 `y document marked Plaintiff's Exhibit 1233*. Would you look 6 . at that, please. Do you recognize Plaintiff *~s Exhibit-1233 7- v7 8\t ' ; 9 10 as a m m o 'written b-Dallas Armstrong? J ,r ; A n iYes<.*L , " V.f'W/, ' , j'* - '1."-' r "V . ^ - F ' Q And that I n d i c a t e s ^ - have you had'a chance to look at the tables *r-_ ' J .. . . ' 11 ' ' " 1 /A V HO. ; ` : ' 7 !. / : '' 12 - Q. ' . --- behind it?, ! - - ' 13 THE COURT What is vthat exhibit number?- /- 14 - / MRi^CARR? . 1233>r,your Honor.,' 1 > , - , 1 15 , THE COURT: Thank you* ' .7 r ' 16 - ! Q, (By Mrv Carr)' .Have you had an opportunity to / ,17 . 1 >, look at.;.that, plus the tables-attached to it? 18 ; . -` ' a - *' Yes. 1; -;7 i; v" ' ^ ` . ; - " ' ' , . 1 19 : Q 1 How, Chet .shows, does it not, in the wipe tests' ` Z' ' k' - 20 ' there v1er--e ^tetr'a?di, oxins dei tected -in the o;ne exhibJi. t,t-he 21 . control room, and Building 237 on the Control Room Table, 22 , and in ,other - places- according to the exhibit? 23 " I ' m - sorry, now, Mr. . .Cary you're back at the , j 24 - V- tables? BATONNE. N .J, OOO FORM' IL 24 B ; . ,">: , * v- s,0c. 7 7 ^ 'i ' . i; ^ TV; ^ . , `.T\'1 ' 1. : / t-oV-*' W : : - Lj ... : -T 1 ' ' :':v t r s ? V . 1 V </.'-V^* * ,L. V'-,! , **-* A - ; ' ./ ' - *' , ' . / 1/ f- ya . f > f''i V,.< ' t' ' ' J'} V 3 / `t ? *v - i '1.'1' - Vi . , Q Yes# that* where' l am; ' ` V .. 3^ v , i A , ^ okay* r L '. . \ ; . Q 'you see here: CI4 X h the Department 236 # found -v ` 4- ' 5, ; * tetra dioxins*. . ' A a ; . res* ` ' ; * V* r._ ^ , : t 6 . i _* q And in another one in v236* found 3*2 micrograms 1 ,tpi 'v . . * ^1 n > or nanograms o the tetra dioxins* 8 - ti 9 ; a ' It says.Cl^v'-^- ' j < f- Q / CI4 you know Is the;tetrasr dp you not,sir? 10.. , *.Ai'- X suppose^that's what he means. -/,/ 11 r P' ?..All- rights, ;And the next table shows for the , 12, in the pentachlorophenbl and. the support girder for the CI4 # 13 it: shows. 7.3 nanograms0 ;v 14' 'A l* I'm not familiar with these designations# Mr*' . ** IS ' ,Carr* X see the 7*3# and then something* ; 16' Q , On Building 237# idle ControlcRoom Table* 17' ; h\ 18 / ,4 res. CI4 '175 hanograms, \ r:;^ : '; 19 ... 20 ' 21. ': '. '*Vm 22 .; -; a -Q \ 'A 'Q ;/XeS*' ' -;J`. *- ' '> . 1 ' ; * 'Or the u*g> ^ ;/ . , 1 A. " ^ ` %` # ti* 1 Whatever#, yes; I see the numbers* .\ , \t V And you see Mr* Malloy describes those wipe tests 23 . that they*re higher than those reported byOSHA. ` 24 : V , MR,MUSGRAVEt Mr* Armstrong. ' PENGAD'C .O.' BAYONN.E. .Nj; 07002 FORM1L.I4B L-'*i!>JKV'i!i' ; ,.`.:;,-T-,<'i.> ri,' iir. '.`vj. ? . ' ._ *i :J - L .'*f' . ' ir . ' *r. ' -,' v. - 1t-r.Vf'i '4 V tv 1 Q . (By Mr* Carr) i*m sorry, you*rcorrect. Mr* 2 Armstrong reports fcb Mr :Malloy in dune of 179 that these ere 3 higher than reported by SHA* Do you see that,/sir? 4' A ^ I see the statement there, yejs. - 5 Q Yes. And you .do remember that'OSHA,said there wa^ 6 , 642 nanograms and these tests are something like .well, one; .7,- , . of them is. twice that* .375 /nanograms or u .g .?s is sighifi8 " cantl higher than -- ? it's twice, as high as 642 .nanograms* 9,.. ^ ''MR, MUSGRAVEs Your .Honor , I Object to this, line JQ.v of questioning*. it8s all repetitive* Its been gone into* ' \ * J- \ 1 /V ; 'i ` * Tt* 1-- J* '' ' J'1-K -% ,, , ,, - -J " *r 1 * * r ,f s ' - . *s. w 11 U .This witness is.not the/author of any of these documents that 12 .. have.been introduced, nor is'-there any evidence ;.that he ever 13 ;saw them* /I object t/ife : . '/ 14 /. i ,THE COURTS < Mr* Carr,do you have anything you . J 15 / wish to,say1 to the objection? \ 16 ,- v , MR0 'CARR*. Yes; I wish to establish, this point 1 7 -/ as being in the knowledge of Monsanto prior to going oh to .v ^ k -`, ' .* 1.8 . -C th next' pointo . / ; v " r. " .V ' '- : . /" ,f 19 *20 . V ; THE COURT*' You, may .proceed * Objection is over- 11 "V' f' 1' ruled* . ' >- `; , / ' / * . ' 21 :Q., (By Mr* Carr) Do you,see, sir, that it is talking 22 ` , about tetra dioxins in. various places, found :in your plant? 23 -A If we take the Cl^/to refer to the ttra dioxins, -24`*' than that would be corre\ct< r ;; v'A i3 r * - i J.:-,y. ?v>*i- V ' v. VVi tj- 50 " PEN 6 * 0 CO.. BAYONNE, N .J , OJOO FO BM .IL I * B 1 G Yes. Would you mark this as Plaintiff's exhibit 2 3 {Plaintiff's Exhibit 1543 was marked 4 for identification by the court reporter.) . 5 6 Q {By Mr. Carr) Handing you now Plaintiffs 7 Exhibit 1543 and ask you If you recognise that as a question ar r " % 8 and answer sheet prepared by-Sarah Collins, and you received 9 a copy of it dated November 15, 1983. 10 & ,Yes. 11 Q d o you see that, sir? 12 A Yes, do.* 13 MR; CARR X offer 1543 into evidence, if it 14 please the court. 15 MR. MUSGRAVEs I object to it, your Honor, as 16 being irrelevant and immaterial,, too remote in time to have 17 any probative value. That. ought to cover it. BAYONNE. N.J, 18 .THE COURT Okay* . It's admitted over objection0 19 O 20 MR. CARR Could I have 1543-A please. 21 .(Plaintiff s Exxhbit 1543-A. was marked 22 for identification by the court reporter.) . 23 24 (By ;Mo:Carr); M r fPark, !dp you recognise 1543-A *,'.r 51 - *i i v >r ' V 1\J 2V 3 -' j i. vj t :4 L , ,A \ as the page numbered 2afc the top on Exhibit 1543? * ' , f'l v* , . ,* 1, . "i.* "% , r i*- .v ,.III r __ -* .. * i# - 1v i- 1 ' *^ - y `- A.. Vea, 1 * + ' % /Ir - *s 1r iy - l j. ~ ^ "" -,, Q ,f y`.MR#. CARRi [f$soffer 1.543~A, your Honor# /.^ .MR#.MOSGRAVEr.;, .Same objection# ^ 5 ' >y , vv, v 'Same ruling* ^ \- * - ,*1/- ,: ,A,.Vl., 'v . 'V'_. 1, .' , . <v/.. , V'v^Q..?%.,;(By>ir# :Car.rj^ Mr Park, .putting 1543 in a ; / -t 7 context,.have you read enough of' it to recognize that it was 8 `9 [ 10.,; j| 3 prepared because of the;certain soil sampling that had taken * "' " l ' ' ^ ,-- T. > J' ir , ~ 'rv ' . r, ( ' ` * .{ place at the Krummrich Plant? } -;_/v : :. / ' ` " 4 ; . *"-f'i-j; ' 'v _ ':'y 1 -a ` ' ;A . Ms# Collins' indicates that it was .prepared for:-- _ 1j .. ' in connection with.the Krummrich Plant soil sampling program# i2r ; 1: ;.Q v-` You ;and a' number of others roceived copies of . 13 C this W#WiiW!and. answeE. prepar^':by .Mrs., Collins;: did you ' 14 ' 1. f \" L p :v .not? ' *' i \*',<jv r. 15 i A ; vyes.fShe was seeking review; and comments on it# ' ;' . ^ .. ';> \ r_ ' ^ 16 Q Now, fchequestion and answersareto be used : 17 when representatives^of, Monaanto meet with' the press, aren't; 18 'Lthey,,sir? Just; as we -;saw earlier *jieunreiter .referxedV;to a> 19 . question .and ahswer, a" prepared question and answer when taik 20 ; ing about OSHA's findingsi.'_ That *s what the question and, 21 answer ^is for, isni t ?it,:sir,;.' to he used by Monsanto repre- ;i2\i 23 , 24 Lsentatives ^to.^resent^Monsanto's official position taken J : . -r - i! 1 :v-V';r> ; i l ' `` , ` '-* . with the public;^ish!t?;that: correct, sir? , " , ' V * J j *' i ; ^ 'v \ -T ' v ` ' ` _ . t t . , J. " .; . A. ; |:WCuld not state it quite that way# >; \ 52 :/' tJ,\3 f a ^ ^ ' " . -/A-'"-, . rv JI 1 Q Well, state 'it the way you would state it, sir0 2 A I would say >;fchis is information which' the. Public 3 Relations Department tries to gather in order to respond to 4 press inquiries* 5 Q Well? that's fair enoughs Isn't the purpose of it 6 so that all of Monsanto's persons that meet with the'public 7 will be saying the same things? have the full knowledge? full '8 information and be able, to respond in the same and consistent 9 fashion? - 10 A think the purpose is so that whoever is 11 contacted by the press will be in a position to provide 12 accurate information to the press* 13 Q Now, among other things? it discusses the findings 14 in the soil samples oftpoint "" .and I'm now directing your 15 attention to *the* top of page 2 ? the page numbered 2 * It 4 i. > " * 16 talks about the recuit of soil samples that were taken in 17 the Krummriehf'sauget? Illinois Plant? and it gives the 8 numerical results as ranging from 5 to 1 0 parts per billion 19 in two samples* Wow - and in one area the sample was 2*4 * 20 parts per billion* So what this is showing here? you have 21 from 500 -- from 100 parts per trillion to 500 parts per 22 trillion in two samples^ and 2.4 parts per billion in another - r Eu _ . ' ' ,' , r * , -f :\J ;. `` ^i 23 sample Isn *t'that so? ? . *-* . * * L ,* I *- F 4 4 ^. 24 A That isn't the way ehestated it? but -- * }  .jVil11 : , ti\r K ` y-' \ r^ ,J , T 1 \ v; v Q . . She said the numbers range from .5/ that's 500 ' * 'r ` *J t ' *' :'*' ' i_- . ' , :'` - y * '-1 v 2 parts per trillion, ish-'t :iy'sir?: / 1 j .3 * *\ -^ -iL l ^ -- ,, J- ^ , ir : T1 . 'J ` J r ' . ,- . '`-A-,'. /Yes* j , ^ 1ii - j, I .i 4 ` ; / >Q And. 10,*is i00.parts'per trillion, sir* S-* \ \ .'Y e s U ( ^ ! r.*- - , r tt- -r- . ^ 1 . . -v*" i '- ' s: . jn 6: -Q V.' , 2 v4 parts per trillion, isn't it? 7 " Isn't that correct* sir?v;,v - '. ; \ >-... '; ..> 8- A \ Sure,/ one can make fchafcconveraion. ^ . J. 9 r Q They suggoat -there that it'.s a couple of inches 10 below the surface, and you're w" to pav the Area that 11 has this dioxin in itrangingfrom 1 0 0 parts per trillion 12 > 13, 14 *5 ,, to 24 parts.per bi^ion^. that you're going/to pave that parking lot, and that will eliminate any exposure, bo you * ,, t ^ ^ L*> \ *6' i* see'that,4sir? ; : ,':y' /-;* 13., A ` .That1 s what ishe states , . r- "- -V'- ;r 16 ;q ^`Nowfarther.: 6h .idpwn i ^ant to direct your attend 17 tion to the Question. Number 10 .Where it >says "Had. you ever, 18 tested for TCbD before now.^ d o you see fehat, sir? . .i/ 19 . ' 20. A Yes. v' Q Sow we knvV that Monsanto had tested for TCDD 21 before 983>dnfA>:w e V ? b i r ? \ i i r ' 'L - f . - ' ' . '.if *&?'* ***.*. 1l \r l''^ ^Z-' '/' i/.-, ; . '/ ' i ; i/Vv-'* *-. -V - ", L -l ,- 22 tr " a - Yo:8re/:rferr ing back 'to v*;;i* ' : .-- v ' 23 / Q The june':* 3 7 9 , ~ t ]`,7/T r J' r t .+ *i ^ - , * " " v '* i 1 > V > "i l \7 1 , ' . , r * , f -M '* *;-`l '', ' '{^ it'jio' * v -- w ' k ;' ' ' - 24 - A 'Yeso - ' :- ; -y.r-\. ''r 54 * j> ^f-y\ ''V.. , /, .*;: ''* * ., 1-^ . / ' '` A * ' tJAj: - - [:#r ;y %>-l S |r \:r.: ' ;; ' -'> ' "V .. . P C N G A O .CO?'*BA VO N NE; N.J.' >07002 JV. *^ t _JiC'. 1 q t - finding where you had tested and where you 2 had found TCDD* 3 A - Mr# Carr-- i `isd f-`'u-:;9;-s ;f-.od .. ^ T-hc-rccc r 'e 4 Q I mean we Know that don't we sir? 2 .vrry-, c. y:;yho d vyv .?Yi,\\s~, ovov A No# All we have is this document here* 5 3 i* A?- iCiVi tt r ~h;v Yfoy S-'V'sv^ir u:i 6 q res. And that June t&feh document is a Monsanto vc"*' oye:; K2i\ -cfcro nov?* had ^ document isn't it sir? 7 5 d^oidd ;;? T<U3U by fc^iing ; and tfouv* ,,U ;.ica to ;\o 8 A Yes* But one -- '* I 6 yr ei.d'lh., Ztt ti!:irv^ t o o `Jipv .l.'Ci'^Ofccg 5>* Q And it is discussing testing done by Monsanto, 9 7 c7>', cc :d,Y\coyi'. -find Sur^-iitv'iO ' , chicrop:-:ccCv. e'-vita 10 isn't its sir? 8 %hQ\i: x^Tituol aioaii,/- XsnH ohat it coio, a:1 c? 11 A That's correct* ;i f\ ir" rj i V ft*fv-j-i Q A n d i t did find TCDD didn't it sir? 1120 0 yc fcrvc;? :ir. v foatsed. cii:r-f\t< ycct Aorod ST^v 13 A The document indicates that there was -- that, i ccyfcyo1 cccy CQA'd/: K-:> hiiCV dose t -r. .e&s? 14 theyr,dJLd find whatever it is a quantity of CX4 * U & Us* O-irs: * do-vd IS Q Which is TCDD isn't it sir? u Q 'Can de-iv-T1 pt it.- m' 16 A yes* That is the numbers written on this documen k. n il 'sn vb&t y o u have edoc0 tsh-io --' 1I7s .9 You teli the public here "We had tested for TCDD r a Why Crr^t yea uncini: 'h*2 s^oation ,>^,y hy 1168 by taking wipe samples and found it not to be present* in Xce:":,.j fit A:; $Cifo3.a ehot'd's it* 19 taking the wipe samples we tested the surface of equipment '7 V ; 1 V^/,t \r ^ iH 20 and furniture in the*chiorbphenol units and their control ifi Q ^OiihOpl :XK,.ii To v c ; u ;;l 'ih ' 2IV1 areas* Isn't that what you -sa1y* ' Mr# Park? "A:o :wn.h;. C'^t+Oi a ? a^d tho ,,iVS `ihr\ O.'i' /> 22 A Some of what you said is expressed In 810* - v:ea l z / m' 23 Q Didn't S-l read it exactly as it was said in the U And you 30 TdDt i:ira nay? Cotttnyl ho :n dc.`>V-', 24 answer to number i 10? eco At I,ocn y.o.blc? `A .'sT3 f 1 lity* You are one of the recipients of it* are you not? 2 A I am named as one of 'those to whom it was 3 addressed 4 Q you have an obligation* `and Malloy has an 5 obligation* And Malloy was the man at the plant* Malloy is 6 the one that received this memo, Exhibit 1233, wasn't he* sirt 7 A hat's correct* 8 Q It's addressed tohira0 9 A ' Yes* 10 Q Each of you* Smu11*.Malloy* Gilhousen, McCarvill@t 11 Papageorge* Shanebrger* each of you have a responsibility 12 not just to the plant, but to the public* don't you* sir? 13 A 1 don't understand your question* Mr* Carr 14 Q y o u have the responsibility to make sure that th 15 information that you give out is the truth and not a lie* 16 don't you* sir? 17 A Certainly if we have contact with, the public, we i * ! \'? >r * '* * r .1 1 i* \( 18 do, yes* `vJ ' .- - !'''' 19 Q And this/is /the purpose for this question and k` ( - /! ` -'\ ;, 20 answer preparation was to tell thi to the public* Didn't 21 we establish that already* sir? ;; 22 A jYes * 23 ! Q And if this is what was told to the public, it 24 wasn't true* was it* sir? nr 7 , A; ^ Ve9 o ,./,;,VrV`-7 / 7 r ' 7-* ,, ; -f .-/* ^ r ; . Q And fchatdocumenfe shows that; youtested in 1979 and found TGDD. on the Control Room table# doesn't it# sic? A it appears'to indicate that* . Q Yes, Arid what ypu told the public in 1983 wasn't the truth#, was 'it# sir? . -V ^ .. 7 r,'jr L \ rt , * 7 r" ^- *- " ' i / K --1 ** ', A \ . There's no indication that we told,the public in 1983# Mr*^Carr, , ,; ; ,Q\ Isn't that what`you used to respond to the public1 requests^ 7 " ' 'vC ; , .*-7 ' ' -v .'--a/ ' ,A Not necessarily This.is Sarah Collins sending r ** * _ '' " V" :^ f r L this out to people to get. their comments. . Q Well# did you comment#'"Hey#.that* a notcorrect. You shouldn't/say that**? . - . J '?7 ' . , A I can't recall whether 2 commented or not* Q Let meshggest to, you that-this is the only question and answer press release .document,.that was giyen, to us relating to.'this area#^uhlees:you"have some that you '-v 777'i .7 7 7 " 7`_V - *' - ' *'> know of# unless you know that-it Was changed# and that this is not the onthat was 'used* TThen i 'll stand corrected if * ' ' , -r : V W. r^ 7 . - ' ,, r' -J J.V ;'h,v' *. ` `. you know there was come other* ,, ^ . A This is notsoinething that I am. responsible for# ' Mr* Carr* Ji 'm just hot that familiar with it* ;q ; Mr, Park .I suggest that you do1 have* a responsibl 1 ik r7 i*U Xifcy. You are one of rtihe recipient of it, are you not? A 7/ I ara named- as one -of, those to 'whom it was i b,., ' -' addressed; 7 ^ . * * ^ - , ' 7 ' V* \ ` t . ^ 7 /-V .' ,` J b* 1 'v ^ * 7 *Q You. have an obligation,' and Malloy has an. .obligation* And* Malloy was the man at the plant; , Malloy is the one that.received, this memo, Exhibit 1233# wasn*t he# sir? a .atoat's cortect* . ;7. Q . . Itfs addressed'to him.Q ^ -7 *-7 .SJ ; V L^ ` Yes{ 7 ' 7 7 ' ' '* '^'7 V ` 7. Q , _Each of you # Simi11,^Malloyj Gilhousen, McCarvillet -Papageorge# Shaneberger# each of. you have a responsibility not,just to the plant, but to the.public# don't you, sir? .A . ,I don1 1 .understand your question# Mr * Carr 7Q You hay the responsibility to make sure, that the information that yeti give out is the truth iuid hot .a lie, , don't you# sir? '7-7 7 : A '7 Certainly if-We have contact with the public# w 'v ' 7* ,do> yes*; X. j> h / U U X h v ' - - 7 ': ` , Q And thia/'is -the /purpose for this question and ,iv r-v *r- ./ = a . * j ' '*' *M \ "s > r'> i ` J ' - r. answer;prparation v/ae td tell this to the public* Didn't we establish 'that airaaLdyV\ ;ir?] S t J .v ' ' 7 A ,; > e s . v ,7 t ` Q 7 7 Arid if,.this;`ls what was told to the publier it . ' '' .. ' \L _ '' wasn't true#;was it; sit? J " 1* ' " 1 A . I d o n 1t know*'Mr*.'Carr> you're assuming that this prior thing was .correct* ^' ' ,; Q ' ^ Ro# I 'm saying ; : ' ' ^ ,.v MR* MSGRAVES Just a moment/ your Honoro Q i- (By Mr* Cark). It's not true# is it * sir? / MR, MUSGRAVEc May he finish his aniswer, sir* ';' '/ , . t'/. _ ', - ._ * _\ : THE COURTS It was nbt responsive, She. objection is overruled, -> ' Q (By^Mr, Carr)' If this Is what was used and'what was told to the public* it1 a not correct# -is. it# sir? It's hot true*Vi it# sir? * ' '1 V ,< .v , v- 1. . . ''.' * ' .` > `f '\ ,, . - ', - .. V , * `J A I don't think your;statement is eorrectr necee- , sarily# Mr* Carr, ' Q Mr, Park* if it were^told the public# they were, told an untruth# weren't they# sir- / ,MR; l^SGRAVE3;-:0bjecfeion, ; s been asked and r- ?- i'Vif .} \ n \K>*. *. answereidd.- ' - ; THE COURTj Overruled/' ^ --- f > t ` 1" ** ^ ~M-", t ' 1 I' ' 1 -- L Q </{By Mr* "Carr) Assuming "they.were told* sir* . A f I ,don1 1 know that/that Cis- the case*: As you are phrasing this# Mr, Carr* I would have to answer no# I don't think .it would be an untruth* : v . \; 1: ' 'J " . " v%, i1- ,v, ,^ '/ - 1 .Q Well * Mr * Rark# the truth is .that you ;ound TCDD , there# ish*t it# sir? Ish't that.the truth? t J; A I don't know, that that, is the. truth* _ Q, ; Mr. .ParkV^W. just established'that .that was a v\ Cl^ Cl^stands fortetra*you know that* don't you? A All you1,ve established is that's written.on that.1. v,,v m* r \ "" LJ '\ - . VJ '; 'T V 1> i , t '_ ' ri rr J 4^ -r HP ^` 1s - r ,l - i: J ^ V , piece of paper/ Mr. Carti '; " / V . Q -Ehat'sall, w e 've established? -j- ' " `A, ,XesVirJ/ v V ^ ' ^ . . `^ t :' rQ And that piece of "paper is tests done by Monsanto {isn't it* sir* and we>established that* didn't we* sir?, A - By whomever* yes* I ,don't know that it says.--r d^d it say on here who performed the tests? l ean remember that there v;aa much confusion over wipe.sample testing*'. . ' ir'- 1 b . -p ( *^ ,j Q r I learned from Brian ward -- you know who Brian . r' '.-. ,' -* x' , Ward is* don't you* sir? ,. . rr ' ' . .^ f A ' xQ m- r > 's - I rememberBrian Ward*. , - W . V << - h 4^.:r"j-/V;.V^i -i 'i' '!'A -v.-';u;r*v'. , ! - *. v - /. He;;took the;,wipe samples and followed them through analysis, You -.know Brian, Ward is the 'man.iwho.was doing the - ' * - 'V 'v- i t '* r 1 . *J* w V J 1 t- ' lti eeesltinnrgt* BU e wm a 'ss ;hWea as d o fvt-+hkaaht* department an<t that time* wasn't he* sir?. A i'j ir I : :* . i don't recall.what his position was exactly*. : Q Don't.recall exactly* but;tell me what it was* what his responsibilities were-wit^ regard to testing* A ; . I'don't remember his responsibilities* but he did have to do -r he was l a our department of Medicine, and 60 Environmental Health* v, ^ ' ' '^ ^: ^" , l f, ^ 0 H had to do v/ith analysie, didn't he, sir? And 3 /- 4. 5 6 -7 ' .8 . >: 10 it describes that he took, the wipe' samples and followed them through. So you did have the information you did do the testingi isn't;that correct sir? . V' J 'h sV ` 1 1 .. J -" ` ; -\ Q , ;And that information Was of the.tefcra TCDD isomer you bad *17,5-rairograms,per square meter. . - 4 } A. */< That's what, you have on our plague there, Q j That's what you had, on ,thd exhibit .that you hold ji,, in your hand , ~v./ ,.<< 'i ^* 12 A ; LI don't See that last part. /'*, :/ /. J ' 1* 13 \ Q " Mr* Park/ we just went through it* : 14 A 15 . . here* 16 0 17 A I don't see the micrograms .per square^meter on : ' j:' - -* .. >; --T-.; , - '1 i J _i . i -r"t2 fi t 'U, t ! ' * i f;'*1.'f'tf,- . ,'-,>V 'J" ^ ' H - .V * .*' ''v %* ' r s'-vv?*,1 \' \l.i1 V- ' j<v, -J,\\ t1 ' -j You see the.-.1*75 u.g*?. a ; Yes* '*''-;v .**; i-, '. , '-. ,, ' ' . Q 19/ sir? They had added to that the M-2 squarej, don't'theyj Vr. ?.',v 4' * J 7 1*>-*rA-;v ^i.i-,ui' f- ,, * Jr t * *;;,v` `" '** -, ,, - '. -' 7 ^ '; -."1 20 21 ; . 22'- \ A r * Yes* That's different from this* - Q That is different frorathat*. The figures are the .` r r, r. . i*! ' . '\ `r same thecontroXtableis the same; isn't that right?/ 23 ; 24 - A ; What dd; you,.mean control table Mr* Carr? Q ; Mr* Park, why are you-doing this to`me. . j-* - 1 A Oh, the heading, I'm sorry* 2 Q The Control Room Table* 3 A Yes* 4 Q And the information is shown there is that there 5 was TCDD in the wipe samples, isn't it, sir? 6 A That's what thedocument indicates. 7 Q And, therefore, the preBs question and answer 8 statement is wrong, isn't it, sir? 9 A Not necessarily* This could be wrong, Mr. Carr* 10 Q Do you have any indication that it's wrong, sir? 11 A I can recall that there was much confusion over 12 the taking and analysis of wipe samples. This was one reason 13 why OSHA decided to drop its allegations or violations* 14 Q Is that right, Mr* Park? 15 A As I recall. 16 Q Now, perhaps it's because OSHA wasn't told the 17 truth by Monsanto* 18 A No* It was because OSHA decided to have no 19 case that it could bring against us* 20 Q And somebody from OSHA, I take it, wrote you a 21 letter to that effect? 22 A No* OSHA went into the administrative court and 23 decided to withdraw its allegations* 24 Q Is there some document they said they withdrew? -A .1 2 3 r4 5. 67 ' S' '? 10 11 . 12 ft 13 14 15 16 17 ,18 19' 20 21. 22 23 24 fiA :NO| -there's a -rilling.-by th judge that I mentioned .0 /y'tjp. .Allait mentions .is that they do notprosecufce it. It doosn*t' say they withdraw it. He1,dismissed it because it wasn1 t.ptpsequted.V you know that* A ' No. ' I think I recollect thatthey were withdrawn; ,f ' Q Well|", do you have any document-that'indicates that? y j`` - ' ; . '/'//'y y k "V _y' ' . No, not off ,the top of. my: head. ; , ; As a matter 6^ fact, what SRA would do or noh do depends a great, deal'on information that they, get, from the ; r ^ .l ^* r ,T .respondent,' in this case Monsanto. './ ; / *' y ' -y - y ^ y MR.'MUSGRAVEs ; Objection, speculation, conjecture - ^ ,/y ^ y y j. ;y -i ;, / , - . ' about what OSHAyan .unnamed individual at OSHA, or all -yy k ' -*y,r:yf r vyir: ,!`?` V``- '.V. j ,, / w . L/, y 1 ' / . individuals atOSHA. It's vague and indefinite in that * , -y\ y .1 . y :.y -y ;y y 'y : .- 1 - , ' respect It. alsocals ;;for-speculation and conjecture. . r-j` A" *'* v y v 'vy y * . .. v. - THE c o u rts The objection is overruled. It's . - 1: y 'Vf r v ' v4iV'!-.` ' ! '' * " ' "' Vv \ h ^k v ^ ^ ^J * ^ . y , Ml y - -J ln - proper question7 to`beta'sked ofr;this/witness, y ' -, , THE WITNESS? I would fy no* ; '; Q Carr) J. Mr. Park, you are aware of, and you participated ia a process, whereby OSHA sent you in that very'case that you *re talking- aboutVa long list of requests for information, for :responses -to long lists of questions, and it I >* Pr -, ^ A .t ,/ \ 4 -I 1 ^ i r * J l ' r L 4I* '' f ** y * * t, ' " ^ '> you participated, you yourself participated^ directly in \ answering those/ giiestions ou rknow, and the responses to > 63 i PENC*0 ,C 0 ., BAVONNE. `N.J. 07001 I _.2 34 5 6 7 8' 9; ' 10 11 12 13 14: 15 16 " 17" ' 18*. 19 20 21 \ 22 23 24 -, -' .. ' ' VJ ' r* " F- * * ^ IL 4 " L` those requests for admission of fact,/ You recall that, don't you,rMr. Park? : j/- ^ v\"; ` /."'"A ' \1 recall the admission/ yes* Q And it was after you responded feb those questions 1 v - , - .. J i.`-Y.~ '-, '. - ,1' 1';"^ ", -r` 'r / that the. case was notffurther prosecuted by OSHAj Isn't that correct, sir? .. * Y .; r -, . '*1^ .Y A , .Well, it Was sometime later., That was fairly early on This was the first step in discovery* Q Y . it was after that, wasn11 it, 'sir? Y - rA. Much after Y - > ^( ' s . * 1 I. j ,, . '* k^ ^ ^ rj t *r '."'I*' ' -' x. -' t^ I ", ( ' . MR, CARR/ Would you mar)/ this Plaintiff's "* Exhibit, plt:eeaasse;)Y Y 'if;Y..ii>ff ]5.Ya*V-j Y . .rf.w ' ^ ` * .. * F 1L. * * *1 t ^ . *. . ` f.| . i ' ;: **V./-'.V,*. 'i (Piaintiff 'S'VExhibit3 -l544 and 1545 were marked ijv: /v x"Y y *v > y Y Y y ; for identification by the court reporter.); r " jy ,n i;*& v. X Y Y 'i;:> 'J > i- rr`" Q ,{By Mr. Carr) Mr. Park, I'll.hand you what's ' , '> .'* L V- ^ ; ,' \ ' ;. been marked Plaintiff 's Exhibit`1544 and .ask you if you recognize that exhibit as the OSHA's Request for Admissions, addressed to Monsanto/ and Plaintiff's Exhibit 1545 as Monsanto's response to that Request for Admissions. - A Y \Ye?//! dp/ " V ' .. -^ . '//' ; J l MR. CARrV i offer those two exhibits Into - * ,j r ^r t f - *+ , . J, evidence^ if:it p l ^ ^ e the court. ^ , 4 <l BA YO N N E.-> N .J, / MR, MUSGRAVSj The same objections. This is all irrelevant and Immaterial*'your Honors It deals with another proceeding handled.by Frank Pellegrini* another lawyer* This is irrelevant and immaterial to any issue in the lawsuit, THE COURT* The objection is overruled. They`re bothadmitfeedoverobjectioh, Mr, Carr* before you'go into , this* is this*a good point tq;break for lunch?. MR, CARRi yes* your Hoiior* , THE COURTi Ladies and gentlemen* we will break. for lunch at vthis time - I would remind you. the admonishments r" / ' ' ' -j. ' , ' *- -V , / .1 ': that X*vo givem you earlier areVappiying during this'break v , n im . 'F also, We ?11 resume again at 11 00 Court is in recess. *- j : "`"r , ,,'* ^r- ,-r\ 'V*-' "> 'i'5'" i','t-- *'";f' ' '* ' 1. -, "_. ' .; ' - i... ,V ; l'J i^v T : -, (lunch recess). *' ^ r./ ; r 'il i * - ' t 5 s r \ . ;* ' ,, - t ' J' .v-i *-i - -V *- t h e c o u r t * Mr. Carr, ;K (Plaintiff* Exhibit 146 was marked ; 11 ^ w` 2 ' fox identification by the court reporter.) - ,'l ; *N h* ` ,, l' , ' V\4.,_ ' 4 `; ' , _r Q. - (By Mr. Garr| . Mr. Park*,-1 hand you what's now r been marked Plaintiff *rs Exhibit 1546* .and ask you'if that is hot a memo of January 5* 1981 referring to wipe samples* Could you answer the question? / 'rr, . A ^v I Q Ztt ou. ** o fox o z u z z o < CO O o a < o z a. - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2'4 A I'm sorry#-*,X didn't know you v/ere addressing me, Mr# Carr. X didn't hear the question# Q The exhibit that I handed you, Mr. Park -- a Yes# Q -- Plaintiff's Exhibit 1546 is a memo dated Janaury 5, 1981, referring to dioxin wipe samples, is it not, sir? \ A Yes. . ' - - Q it*a addressed to Ward and Bdhl'in St. Louis, and to Keating in St. Louis- as. well/ is it not, sir? A Well, it's addressed to'ward and BOhi. It shows copies to Keating and some others. , 1 ' f ^ .. V' -J f' MR; CARR; I offer this "exhibit into evidence, if it please the court/';*; MR# MUSGRAVEs Your Honor , i object to this. It deals ,with a different plant, apparfcnfcly West Pootscray. Xt has nothing to do with this lawsuit, much less the Krummrich Plant. And even if it did, again we would object on the basis that it's irrelevant and immaterial to any issue in this lawsuit,,have no probative value. 1V THE COURTe It1 o admitted over objection. Q (By Mr. Carr) And, Mr. Park, you see the very first sentence of that, contrary to what Mr. Musgrave said, refers to wipe samples taken in the Krummrich Plant, doesn't 66 H t # sir? ' ' \ "//./'/ 7 ;' , '/- -\ ' ' j /' ; J MR. MUSGRAVEs Object tocouh*el#s comment, your-. - t L r 1' 1* * Honor/because he has n o t read the entire document, obviously / then The docmaent speaks .for itself . ., v - THE COURT* Objection is overruled / The , question was directed tb,the first sentence. It was not an proper question. :-f . "",/ / - MR-:MUSGRAVE; X believer your Honor# my comments j ,\ v - ' hr r" . :1 ; ' *- '* - were with, regard, to his. saying;contrary,to what ,1 *said- about . ii ; "'1-l'y^ -i *?.. < rr,'vj^u. * 1 >; ? this dealing.;withCWest':Footscrayav . /</ -- v * ^f i V r- 1 - ? f ' * ` ' ' i " " V* 1L ' -i ; :?: MR.CARR':,; you said this didn't^;have anything - to do with KruWnrichih 'exactly"what you said#..Counsel. The very first sentence'deals, with ^ruromrich* , ; ,r 1 ' ; V ^1 i i % t f i, r . - * - ,o i *> * V t:\ V ?' . \ i j. - A ,(ByMr. Carr) Doesn't it# M r * P a r k ? / ., * THE COURT*'.The objection is overruled* / ./ THE WITNESS -The first sentence does mention the , - T* 1 - f' " ` *, ' Krummrich Plant*./ v ' J , / ' ./. .f ' : ' //-' MR* .c a r s * :/will you pass that exhibit to the jury^ - please.- , "/: ` ; "/ v . /\. .. Q > v (By Mr. Carri .You recognize B eG* Ward as the . same Ward that wrote,the,memo that we'vebeen dealing with r. . ' , -v*-- " V r -k On the wipe samples? if we can find, it again* ; ' `//MR. MOSGRAVEI 1'2v33/.Mri;Carr? . 'MR^ CARR: lrm hot sure# Counsel. _ r ^ ; **?* " -J - ,, N ^. , - " - - \ v .MH* MUSGRAVEr It was: not ^written by Ward* ' C2UUli- Yes., Ward is referred to in Exhibit r 1233* / ' V ' ` THE .WITNESSi. X would assume that it is* , ,r * ' 4` ' \ ` ; ` ; r Tr i - . ' ** r >.*'' ' ^- 5 * ' J ' r* j .j *' . Q V (By Mr*. Carr)* .Andkdoes * ~ a n d it does say# does It not/"Dioxin;was detected In wipe samples'taken in the chlorophenpl unit. at the W.G* Krummrich plant in .February, i979." . Doesn't it say,that? v / , 1 * }*$ ;) n-"- A ' n x, \\ v . .. A ` /Yes ,/'thatis Jthe .'first; sentence. 1;\/, '^ * r.'-.'v'.. ^ /.L Q . And that. is. an affirmation or an -agreement with * j1 n .* "I*` - ' p> r V ,- "' V J ` ** t// ;|L >'/ i'f- /C/ //`t .i , '.; ` ^ the exhibit fchat/we previously/had/ been discusoing, that iS/ Plaintiff *s" Exhibit 1233, is it. not,.sir? f'_v " ',A >/ - A J 'Weil, it*s written by someone in Australia*, I , guess he's just maybe repeating what,he*a heard. Q , I wonder .if you `couldn*t answer -my question, Mr* Park** "/,./ * ' , 'S * ^ ' "'V:-.' '* ' * 4j * 1 ` ' ', ( \ * '/ . , ^ '. * * *9 ^- r A 4 Well, I would say no; it appears to be repeating. ', k. J 1 - J something^he's/heard. *.1 , 1 i i '> \ // - ; * ^ /.\ rjf< ^ 1 r Q . -Does it not say that it was detected in the chlorophenpl unit-at thW*'G Krummrich Plant in February of A _ ^ Yes. J s; . , ' , ; iv' ' ` ,. ' . Q / And isn,t that the plant that we've.been talking about? :*-v- r,, '' . ' /, .A . Yes* Q _ And isn't it .wipe samples-that were/from the Krummrich Plant that'we're talking about?. , -v /, "s A ' Yes, ye were. - * `V ^ \ ' ' / _v * - - J .r V* _* ' r . '7 rfT- iy m, ^ 1' L ' . Q ,' And isn*t -- doesn't this exhibit show the other^ Exhibit 1233, show that dioxin was detected, in the wipe samples taken from the Krummrich Plant? 1' y, 'A 1 : . . ` U b 'V> /V .7 ,, Yes, f :/('';} { 11 'i v t - ''*>;i. v 1: 1. ,< M '"ir;',^ ' i-P .k*-'/ , iV " y/ v .v. ;" 11 '1y ' ' ,' : MR. CARE, Would you mark .this'as ah' exbibit . J. ' -f* !'. . \ - S ' -i. r 77 i ~ v `. iv fj `-*-' ' L*7 " - 7r". . , . > - > -<- ' 11 -. - ... ' . ; ,,, {Plaintiff s Exhibit 1547 wasmarked r.-i -if ' /*//; ,7. j j- * - - * ji t i / - - * '*+%'*** `i t *d ;- 1 i * for identification by the court reporter*)- . Q /(By Mr, Carr) I hand you now what's been marked, ^ ' , ' I- H 1 ' ,L ,r Plaintiff's Exhibit.Number .1547, and it?s th only copy I, > have, so let me show it to Counsel ifirst* Let me ask you if -'- 11 ' v you recognize that as Monsanto document dealing with Builds ings 236 ahd-'237>. and describing'the ame samplings that we . have previously discussed as attached to Exhibit 1233, only 1233 is handwritten-andtth document you have how, 1547, has, . r - -< -- .. r7 l - '^ 7 -7' > , t - , -1 -.v' -" 4 ' - , .' i 7 the results typed*" . .. ^ 1 A, If you're asking me if,it is, Mr. Carr, I'll have to take time to check them. I haven't seen this before*; . Q / .That's what-X want you to dp* .BAYONNE. N .J .'. 0 7 0 0 2 1 2 3 '4 .5 *6 7 s 9 ' 10 "Lj j II ` 12 13 m; 15 16 '17 J8 19 20 - 21* ' 22 23 ' 24 WXX#:weVr@ comparing Table 1 of the document you have just handed, me last, 1547,7and -- ... Q First of all, confirm that they're>talking about the same buildings and the. same areas from the sam buildings r Mr o Park* - r; ; a ' is there a page, to this document . Park, Qv ' ' ' i 't t ' f " j r " r " ; j f ' j ` V i f j, 1 ^ ` * . Jt ; i*. You have^the documentor as it was given to-me, Mr*' \ . * ` ,'\ -ii.. 1 - 'i*' .i' .< r'3'. , 0 ,;.ij - J1->A ^-'"v 'x _ x .^ A . ' it:doesn't say whichlocation - , <;-! : i> c-'V S'. '.vi ' Q Mr*.Park*it-does say* It says Building^236> ' " ` X* `"V >. ;} i/*'-r '/ --i 'A ' L ' .7 .Blower Motor H o u s i n g * 1 `.7 \ ^ - F i1 t* , ' r' ; 1 l1 A Yes , , **. t>. l Q And it says Building 236> Blower Motor Housing, does it not,.sir? -;r': -'7 ;; A Yes* B u t `this is attached to a Morisanto.memo, and this is not*. , , 7v ^ -- - '* kj Jl - r L 1t r * f L" , * Q That is also a' Monsanto memo* It was given to . me -- you see the "Confidential" stamp, you see the C*0* number* - * \ 4 ~ y. \ _ A . 7 Yes# sir. 7 , 7^- ; ;; .Q It1s a ^Monsanto document, Tit was given to me. Just confirm for me,/ if you Would, that they're, talking about the same buildings,.the same places^ There's the same date ; ' " > ,r7 / ^ " ''' . -r 7' \ A :! see the same date* i %see the same building number here. ; ' .7 ' . r"\\ to 'V .Q . y o u see the same part of the building# Blower .,,Motor Housing,and `walls,..control. tables# and. things of that- sort that they're taking the wipe -samples* ./ ^ A Mr* Carr,, this most recent document says, "Blower Motor Housing Outside Walls ,* this says "Blower Motor Housing Top Cover**. *You;'re asking, md-tb distinguish documents I'm ' '*^-L` 14\J*,- / ^1 t `" ' - n ,, : | ^ .f t - v- ,\'1 V,"' ' -, hot familiar'withV" Btit'>they appearrto be different to me. ' .' * v -L r J . - ' I- ' r r ' * ,' * ' '`3- - Q Well, whether-. they/arerdifforent or, not * you ^ ` 1 V,.f ,.V- ' T r ,, ' ,recognise,these as buildings examined on 6/6/79 # don *t you, . * sir? ' : -i ... " '' ^ . A , .1, see these numbers across here* , . ; ' :. / MR* MUSGRAyHi,tWhere does it say' they were , examined on 6/6/79, Mr*. Carr? MR* GARRi `The date.at the top of the; page, ' 6/6/79* ; , - i : .. v \ \ " ''*-*/ .. \t MR.MUSGRAVE: Is the word ^examined" there?. . -;MR, CARR: ' Ho, Counsel, the word isin*t Jthere. It - says,, "Wipe.sample 1A B u i l d i n g , 236, 6/6/79, 1315 hours, Blower Motor Housing Outside Wall,' six by six area of wipe,* Q / (By Mr/ Carr) Now it also describes on the Exhibit 1233, does it not, sir, Building 236, 6/6/79, Blower Motor Housing six by.six area'Wiped? 1 You see that,* sir? A -: But *it "says "Top cover and riot outride walls* Q Well, 'there's a little more information7 on one th<in *> 1 r ,,2 '3 4 5 6 7 8 there is on the other* , 1 A There's different .information* :. Q If it is a different test, that's;.!;ine with me* X don't quarrel with that.But if you w i l l l o o k a t the inside page, it's fine with me fthat .it- is^mere* because it shows more {f , " 'f \ . .' ` i : , J" 1 f , . , l i \ ; ,',! v . tests and moreCfindingsy Novi:if y W look at the inside pages do 'you see, sir,"that,they have- wipe' numbers 1-A, 2 -A, 3-A, ` < W A-x 'a a a 1 ; ^ . C . .4-A> 5-A,' 6-a ;'`7"A andJ8-A? . '-V A s 1 \9 .10 ' ., A 1 X ;see: that^A; r T : A " , A' *" Q And wipenumber 1-A is the Blower Motor Housing 11 : f Outside Walls, Building 236, is it hot* sir? , ., 12, '- ' A .Yes*.. ' '.'; - * \' -x. - 13, . Q ' A n d they found there 2,160 -nanograms of dioxin 14f per--wipe-,""did they;not, sir? ' '/' `t . ,4 ` f ;. r1 "J J .15 A .'That-appears .to be what it says* I 6 ; 0 A And .wipe.5-A,.which is the vertical! support B A Y O N N E, N .J , '0 7 0 0 2 17 girder in Building 236, southeast of the foreman's office, ; 18 I; they found in 5-A 200 nanograms of dioxin per-wipe in the 19. tetra 4 column,didthey not, sir? ^ 20 ,L-.V/ '* A That's.correct* , .* 21 Q And in the 6*A .6~A ^ .that was 210 for 5*A : \ * -' _ . 4 ,r 22. and the 6-A column it1 a 200; hahograms per wipe, which is the ' 23, 24 table in the control Room*. Do you see that, sir? Aj A ; Yes,/! do*\ 'V. - i* . 72 >1 r . . . . . : ;/ '" '` , j- ' t~r tV^-. ' J'" `t' ` . . ", 11 ' r-' , ,, L , . r 1 -, 1 '' ' - \ *,-,>. 11 r'J-AY,-Jv-V>L- r t j(,, " *, 4 ... * .-\'t . 'r,L L v ':rr('t,, - . .. ' `` . . r ,^ , ` " *v' . \? `rJ[.-.,- ,;'.i V-- f.*.. ... r ' -o -, " * *' , l. . V O ... ` * J, V -r* ' - f' . t'- ' I* 1 ->y / 2 1 ' "' L ' . iT'i ' r 1 if '* `f ' - , - , T rn'pb^.ec^ion bd''continuiAg; * - \ < *.: vV - r/ : ; L` V ; abjection feo ^ i s * V ^ s - repetitivef yor Honor* It*s ,, 3 been gone'through this isorning* X V b been gone through with - tt i.-' '.J1, 4 iihr withseesi/wJet nil/repetitive^ x J / w v: r.ft l,Jy. )'! W` t ri J ' . . 11 v`-'`*t v,- \ ` - , ' 5 ,^HB CRi/ i ^Continuing. ob'jectipn nted. .. 1L. 6 7 Q (Py, Mr* Carr ) ,You see/in . the nekt lower colum^ ' M ; i"' ' v f> `^ - V . * /:, v- : 7 7 . ; i ^ * Wipe sarapl found ' 1700 hahogrems of dioxin in the wipe 8 V o n - i S u p i e i~hb /'i V : >'itU / r ? f C -/ ^ - - 0 * . 9 iv ;r,, 't / / / / i aee.that^^number. ' `, '' V .1 0 - -Q Nowr.Mr*, Park# referring..now to the Sxhibite 1544 1 and 1545, which I1 ve previously given you, and which :have 12 , ` been passed to the jury* it you did please;/sir* / ;1 3 Y, . - i -t - V / * , - k : / " J Yes* : v ; ;'/ - / `, `T , V ' . i / : . / ' ;` -/ ' . * . 1.4 v /; " Q f ,1544 is a/roquest.fchatj,was subiaitted to you that. 'L>, . ' , V - >: ; . ' ' V 1' ,' 1 - 1'~.y ; ``.," '*'* `', . s ., v '"" " , ' 15 * : you took to various people at your plant and got input from '- .. `;, r . ;j-v.*/ J-" . ... > - j. *` 1 .1 nr ". , ' ; 'Vf 1 ,>'v, '1 16"^;, vZ them vas to how to answer these questions f did/you .not# sir? f-ENG AD C O .. B A Y O N N E , N .J . 0 7 0 0 1 1, FORM S); 17 ^ / ' / A r'/I'sent copies of it*/aa':l- recall*, to different r,'4 18 i pOBltf - _V ;i:;;,v''.*;!' ; / * ' 19 .. - / And they-responded to y o u a s to how they thought ;i j/ r,z ,4 . . : 1 -/ ; these various questions jshould be answered, did they hot* f-fT r " : . ' - 'j. j ' V' ;-~'Zir^ ,r J-" 21 sir? *' - ^;r ^ . i 'i / _ / v '-,/'// - i. /* 'r-- - 1 "VV- -. , .//'' " - ` ^ t / .` ,< 22./- ' /v ;: A I - think I received responses from somo* I*m 23 /`. not .sure frbm-all ihr was; aoineV/i`think* confusion / ' ` ^\ '.V' \ * - ' ' : - / / / - - . - 24 7 concerning many of, ths questions* & ; /r y^ l r 1^ ^ v r-.*. ` /, : , , J ji * ' .r ' > *'* 1 ^ i T 1^ >" h. _ ^^ j F - a1 7r J ^ ' j ^J *j j - '' > ." , r i 'IIi rt !! JI r i PEN G AD' C 0 .H BAYO N N E, 0 7 0 0 2 ' FORM 1L ,24 B KU)> -. HK>r.;,rN> * NS -V..>T'-O '-00", 'M*k *tart 'tart~ tart ^9s k"<*ft -.4* Ui '^ ,. 00 ^ - 7` ' . j. r 1 * /, T "jsj' r/ ' ,'.to9 : - ' 1' ' L 7 * E ta Oj . fij p . - g r &- / i , o i - .ta*. - 'ta 3 Ml n Ml O M --^ 0 ,, r *0 . ' r* L "V O o, ` r -* - Jr V* ' ** i * . K t. 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J - vl 3 '- a> ,, t/i `Jkt Ui __K >i, t - ' win your filed, did yu :hot ?Mr? iV ( iH /' :.\',J-'- '- ;\iT* r! V J: ! ':'< r ' a . ;vX***`v~,y'^/-K/.; '''*'''' " ... " Q s Npw,y;youfre>; f course, aware~that the plaintiffs ' - ' r\*\ 'i`.-i*1 ^ 'r_ i` v'.V r - r\' in this case also had asked Monsanto in court documents - I * ft \ 11 " 41 **L * f" { ^ ^ " T reccgnizethat: these;responses? thatlyou filed were, not respond to -requests/filed in a courtv it1before the 'OSHA 'Review Commission But you do Know that in thiscase, Monsantowas also asked to admit the truths !p certain facts* Y o u k n o w t h a t , o s d i d y o u know that that took ;^r in this case?' `r-"" /-. / * > Lrj . . . A . ...Tfaia~ ReqeBt' fr .Admissions? ;r Q - :No. I*m how talking about Requests for Admissions in fact that were filed;in this case by Moneanto*3 lawyers, 1 based upon information given the Monsanto lawyers by Monsanto people* . , r' >l -V'/--'''' ' The case .that, we* re in trial with? . ' "-, ^* 1 -'- - Q - :That we*re currntly in trial on * -m "-. ' , A l*m not.amilar1 with that, .Mr* Carr* Q" \ Youhadnothing to do/ 1 take.it, or didyou, sifi have anything to do with the preparation of the answers to ` r'*r <J *f * ** . v <1 Requests for AdmiBsioh of Fact 'that was filed in this case . * -k p " , i M- that we*re trying here,theKemner case? Did you have any- - thing to do ..with that#.sir? 75 1 ^2 ' 4 5 6 '7 8 9 10 11 I-- 12 ,1 3 .14 * *$ 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23. NO*. / *" . ", .,,. -. f r :`:/ \*V'U . j Q .;;All.xight^h So lefcTs`discuss then what you did ` - r h /J :.:r. *.>.''/ ^ < t , - have-to do with, .Mr* Park, namely...these answers'that you gave i',V j,;-,*. ;^.'j * r"--1. jVt i"1-'* '.' to these requests* 'Nov/ ypu have -responded first of all# it's d e a r that they* re. talking, about the kriimnrich Plant; V; ' f. P:3 isn't, that correct, sir?. ? M ; v P r v '- ,, ' a - - r - y e s . v .a.'1, " .. ` Q \ And they .ask you to admit that OSHA did conduct at inspection between February 1 and February 23 of .*79* v - A- . Yes* 1 ' . .' Q And, of .course,. you admit that they filed the citation, and that the inspection took place, and that you have certain employees, and that you'manufactured chloronated -. phenols at your plant.for/more than 30 years* That would be 'question number 5 or 6 ,.I'm sorry. MUSGRAVEs . Your Honor, may my Objection to Counsel going through*this document also be noted again on , the basis. p relevancy and materiality, and no probative value* J . ';v ; - - THE COURT s; .The objection is.noted,rand it is h' - i. ^ . ' j( overruled* I will take it as. a continuing objection* \ MR. .MUSGRAVEs; Thank you* Q {By Mr* Carr) You also, admit that orfchochloro" r* -^ V 4< PEN GAO C O .'. JBAYONNE* N .J . 0 7 0 0 1 . FORM I t 2 4 B. ,-phenol was 'mainufacthrediihi.'DepartmentV237;^isn'1 that correct; ^ ''*24 r A ;.et*see-*; This is'number what; Mr* Carr? i Q number 7> sir*,. . ` 2 ;<' i, " i1> 1 t ' ,' . A . Yes* `We admitted 7-b* 3 Q Now in .request number 8'they asked you to admit 4 'i'.' 1 **v 1 that synthesis of chlorinated phenols can produce polychlori 5 6 nated dibaiso-p-dtoxins* referred bp as dioxin* as a by product; and polychlorinated dibenapfurans as a by-product* 7 8 do they not; sir? A Yes* 9- < Q you denied the truth of that# did you not; sir?- 10 11 A yes* 12 Q Sir? 13 A That'scorrect 14 .Q Now; Mr* Park; you knev?*. and others at Monsanto 15 knew in 1079; in November of 879 when ypufiled these responses 16 that dioxin had been detected in your chlorinated phenols* 17 You knew that for a number of years* 18 A It was not a by-product as we defined it* 19 Q Well; what was it; a product? 20 A - No* It would be an undesired contaminant; if it 21 was anything* '', 22 G Well#all right* Isn't,any contaminant undesired? 23 When it*B manufactured in a process; isn't it a by-product? / 24 it's not what you intend to produce* i ''2 3 '. '4 5, 6 7 8r 9' 10 ^ 11 ,r 12 13 14 15" 16 . 17 18 . 1? 20.1 21 22 .23 .. 24 , 1 ' : ,V\ "* f 1* / ' * * * ^ v, rf i , . - - ;| .} S ; 'r/ 'J t I* , jt. 5 1 V * i / - i * v * J i-s.^ />r/- p v ;-v' : i m'\- >; ., A V No.t as tfcat.term is/used;by many people, Mr*. Carr - V '> V'! '/v /'If if ' ` ; " i.- O 'fcf ,* *>v* , . '. Q / Mr* P a r k t h e r e - ' . any question in. your Bind that /' /' .'' 1 `. *' . r 'J"- 1 ' 'M ^ j~ r " ,,,, 1 '-r ^ ^! what they Were asking -you /that dioxin is produced in the //-' I O: l ? :/;* -V V /' ''- [J * ' / ;r synthesis of chlorinated.phenols? , ' j* J j < * - A- " This, typeof a reguest by a party in an adminisfcra -, ' : / . > 'cs , - . -< "* * tive hearing/ it is customary if there is anything not totally correct about it to deny.it# Therefore, allow the party who proposes it to prove it /when it comes, to hearing# /Therefore, there is something that is not. correct.about this,-so.it's denied on.that basis* / ' Q )./ Mr# Park, what you *re saying is what you did, if ' J" * -* j-` * _ ' you could find some little area1there that you thought you 1 could quarrel"'with* and be technically correct, in so doing it, you gave a denial instead of an affirmative response, didh *t you, sir?. ./X " V'v .j\Y tA As you phrase that, I have to say not-* We denied number 8 * We denied number 8 . It was not totally correct* And every other one in here that was not totally correct was denied# vy, /* * ' .._/ , " ( /' Q. Wellnow, Mr Park, dld you produce dioxin or not at that plant? ///_ A Not. intentionally*. . ' Q l Well,; I didn't ask you whether you. did it interim J. , j* v '.- j - ,` i 1 ,T " \^ t , - * t " tionally or unintentionally* bid you produce dioxin in.that 78 1 plant?, A It.* ~ apparently dio&in was an unwanted confcami,,i(i< \_ 1. ' >; * j '* 3 nant that can result from certain processes 4 G And you produced it at that plant, didn't you? 5 sir?. 6 A Not as a by"product, as x define the term 7 Q My.question? one at a time? is? sir? did you 8 produce it at the plant? 9 A not intentionally 10 Q &y question is did you product it at the plant* 11 A In a sense it was produced* V- ' 12 G And was it the end product that you were seeking? 13 A No. ... 14 Q , Was it a by-product then? 15 A No. ' 16 Q You either.have an end product or a by-product 17 You've got one of the two? sir. BA YON N E, N .J . 18 A No? we don't? Mr* Carr* 19 Q Oh? is it an end product? 20 A It's a contaminant? an undesired contaminant* 21 Q Xt was produced? though? wasn't it,sir? 22 MR* MUSGRAVEt Object It's been asked and 23 answered* 24 MR CARRi And he said it was produced* 79 . j -r'i- h h'rS.-r! : , -ft : j i . r - t , g ; ' * ;; i - j {>;';- (\_ \, V V-iti ' '^ ... * t ` ' a in ^ ` K_lt \ \ '';_ 'r - . _ * S.'r ,- k\ ^J ` 1 'm , - i-v'i,';V'.' vV` '*"C '.-v 1v* *^ s' '* " K ^ ' ` T^ MR* MUSGRAVEt' He said in a sense# Mr Carr ' , . /, v V; . j ; *t^ . -t'i^`i ' -- - MR CARR: Certainly in a sense* That's all I ' m . talking about; . In a sense it was actually one'hundred percent produced in the Krummrich Plant# .wasn't it# sir?. ; MR* MUSGRAVEi Object to the question#: been asked and answered* ^ . ' ' 'THE COURT: - it has been; answered in, the affirma tive# yes* "* - r- - : '.v W E -WITNESS*. - One. hundred percent# you say# ... produced?. X don' t know that X can agree with that* ; Q.: (By Mr* Carr); ,Xsv Xfe was produced ,at,the Krummrich Plant# wasn't it# Mr*'Park? MR. MUSQRAVE: .Object# It!s'been asked and answered# r THE. COURT.: Go. ahead and. answer it* ~'V ` ' J-' t'1'J.- J''`^ .r V t. it* \ ,,. THE WITNESS: It was produced la the sense it , was a result of the manufacturing process# an undeeired ; r; h'j contaminant -' ,' J In ' - , . ,- X' ' ' - . B l' ''' . r/ *r % ' . ^^ , , .; q ; \ (By Mr# Carr) .And it .was# therefore# a product _of a manufacturing process#.was it not# sir? ; \ MR. MUSGRAVEt Object# It's been asked and. answered# . y . `- ' - j- Th e c o u r t : No#: it has not# 1 ' , THE WITNESS: ..Not as you!re using the term# Mb# vr J' L. I iI I[ I I 1 t: I r i i i I. i i i J t L l .1 tt4" , , . 'r * f , 1 Carr* .Y-H.i '-r ' r. ' 0 -->- jr'.f>-*/ S->K7r^ . * v ?; \ v ^ ^ 5.,/^./fV1 N "/<-' ;'** r.'-. ^ J. V *... .` \ ' - J,r .; , .*1 ti:; V*-; > ^ t `, r J> 'Jf , '>.* * > ^ V ` ^\S'** ` '* "*' pj,fc-` ( ^ ->'-'J;?-s.'r-.!rJ(u*.*r><.`.i1~.rr<*`^1iS<.A,'\3.(-ji:'',h'-.*'.i<fl>`1 - ' *` - " -, - f *. , - 2 Q :v;in any context. If it1 s'produced, the end result 3 of produced is product, is it.not, sir? ^ 4 . ; a ; Mr* C a r r - ^ v y 5 . J. Q 'Excuse:me Mr* Park, could we answer that 6 gueation,^sp we can pass on to another one. 7 1 k 'A No , My answer must be no,Mr. Carr, as weunder- \ 8 . stand those terms*' . ^ . i 1' > ,Q When you produce something, you- make products, A 10 , don't you, sir?. / * !t . -r. * H, `O^ r; - r*,--'; ^ / ' / . }:\_ .. " 12 . Q - Doesn't the word ''produce*1 and "Product", aren't 13 - they the same word, one is the end result and the other is 14 the verk? One is the noun, the result* ; 15 A ,.No* Mr*. Carr, X tried to explain that* You % /' . ./v -v. ` --.V < 16 * cut me oif# ^ ^ 17 ' Q. isn't product the verh> fir? . : 1 8 '' - A - V^he yerh what? v'rr\',/- ` 19 ; q isn't produce a verb, sir? > 20 A .J will produce, yes, it would1 ha' a verb* .. \ .^ .1 i 1j , .v 21 Q Isn't product/ derived from produce, the verb? -22 ` A In a context .it would:he, - - , 2 3 - Q In any context0 - 24 'A NO. ',//- ' \ r; ' \ v ' PEN C A D C O .. .BA YO N N E. N .J -- ^1 K v\ V . L 't ;;\ w *y 'Pr v ^ V - . f^ ` '* r r`"-- c PENGAD C O .. BA YO N N E. N .J, 07002 ;r . " , v i * ,(i1 , T;',. v.vr-'vV`;*'\* *-,--v- -, *> ;- - ** - ,- * .* ,.t * , ' -- 4 - f" ^<'.J'7- Y 1 i :; ,,,i'ii 1 v* ri J \ ---T J* L ^ 1 " * , L > * * J *' VL `` V ' 1 t ; ^ v ? A Y ?* l - * '1 - 1 -- 1 / 2 ^ 11 3 4 Q Product i f a result of producing. ,t *'? " r/ ,. ' ~' .-/MR. MUSGRAVE8 Object. It* s beenasked and answeredf V , 'vY Y . Y , Y. . ;1 - / "" t h e COURT! It has not. . Overruled, 5 : THE WITNESS!'^ Semantics, 'Mr* Carr. / . ' " 1 *. w t' 6 Q (By Mr*.. Carr) Indeed# we- are. That#. Mr, Park -7, is xactiythe point# that you cannot escape from the conclu 8 ' sion that;dioxin was a by-product because it wasn't the end -' r -'' , ->>rA ' 9 product. It wasn't that which you were wanting to produce* /" - - tw * r j/* 1 1` 'j ," i If \ MR. MUSGRAVE8 Object to Counsel's speech* Itfs H ' 12 : hot a question. it,1 s Cpunsel'sopinion* It's Counsel's // 'j ,r r>'\ r\ :1 r lt ' ' 'conclusionso Request it be stricken#.the jury instructed to 13- disregard it. / - < Y. 14 ,- THE COURT iY The objection is overruled. 1 Answer. 15 ' 16 *, th question# please# Mr# Park. Y ' . - 'THE WITNESSf j.NO* v Y Y f k ` 17 Q (By Mr Carr) You wanted to produce it# then, J 18 A / NO*'' ' < -- / / - .- ' ,; 19 - Q Was it a product? .20 A 21. : y Y. . . 22 23 t Y q it was a by-product? It was h9t a by-product. r ^lR.-MUSGRAVEi/ Objection,''; , ' \ ' ;Y THE COURT? *Objection is overruled. ` (By:Mr. Cart) Now you've.gone one step farther# 24 ' . one step at a time#please., When yo hav confirmed and the * lj1 jh tVj ,Y- "' t*t+-**"^ * *'l ;* t * *i W 2r . ! J, rl * f* A, i ^ J * .r'^ :o-j'^'7 v` f \ ''*?* > , V; \C V , h - ;> V v 82 - *1 > "i ;' ..v:'A'f i f; ; Hi- v>; i*k. \ 1/' , . ;\ 'iS . ` 1 -'`;. " 't \ `-.i- _ ' '**t-i-, V, 1 , , `l 7 court has confirmed tl It was a'product. * < iL 11 1 1V ' .J j \2 - - -i.MR;*...MUSGRAVE2 Object* -. 3 - THE COURTS Qbjecfcionis overruled,. 4 ,; 5 v -THE WITNESS:" Nof i. didn't confirro"that*, 1 ` rr'1 ' '/-"'V*. 'f - '1 \r, J< - ,* ) . Q -.(By Mr* Carr) Mr* Park,! want you to assume# so 6 - we' don't ~ 7 ' v' ,' . * 7 `v MR. MUSGRAVE; I object further# the testimony# 8 your Honor# that it was in a sense produced*. itkis hot'a; . 9 - correct^characterization'of the.testimony of MrPark* , ib %,.L .t h e COURT: > Objection -iV overruled,; ^% 11 . F- ` 12 -n . Q, (By Mr* Carr) Now,, if ,it was.produced# it is some kind of product# isn't if# sir?, A No# it*srhot*, Mr* Carr. - . ; ' - BAYONNE, N .J .: 0 7 0 0 1 F O R * It. 2 4 0 . 14 is L'/ - 16 17 Q what is it, if .if it's a result of a producing process# what is it; then? ,, r f\ \ r. . ' . - " 7; * r.ci: ` ' ' (1 " . ' ' V.; r [\ h - It is an unwanted contaminant. . ; r rS ` Q .. .And that is a'product# isn't it# sir? . ?~- * r 18 ' 19 'r - 'A ; ; No# it is not. . v r Q What, is, a product? ' ^ *; r- 20 , A : ' A product is something Kwe produce and market* ` .21 Q A product is something that you produce and market '22 A " ?'* i}- _, J'J23j* Q 24 A ,F , r ..7 . And marketas a product*' - r Can't ypu'have products' that you never market# sir No* Not in the sense in which we use the terra. i -T*->V; i^ *r.V-ftv'J' Jy1-PJ.fk- * , i1i _ ;-`,}'.-[.-"'\Sv, *'/ ^.rL j ' t ' ' 0 f'o i ; v \ ! - * - . ^ ` ,.* ' , J , T'_ ; -* . ", - .y 1 For example* as a result of production -- , ; 2 Q What is a by-product sir? 3 HR* MUSGRAVE; Just a minuter Mr* Carr# may he 4 ` finish? 5 MR. CARR?:No* 6 MR. MUSGRAVEs Your Honor# may the witness finish 7 his answer? " 8 ' THE COURT*. `No. , '. 1 9 MR. MUSGRAVE: `May my objection as to the court's, 10 refusal to let the witness -- 11 THE C O U R T ? I said it was overruled. 12 MR. MUSGRAVE? I just want to make sure my 13 objection was noted.' 14 THE COURT? Your objection is fully noted* Mr. 15 Carr# you may proceeds 16 Q . (By Mr. Carr) What is.a by-product# Mr. Park? 17 A Commonly used-definition is that it.would be a 18 secondary produced product that is marketed* 19 Q By-products are marketed? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And because'you donft sell dioxin as such# you 22 don't consider it a by-product? ' 23 A We do noth * ^ 1 if- . -`I't'' ' 24 Q Dp you.sell it# however? ; ft ' No, riot intentionally#. _ . 1 *v * / - ~, ` K* , Q ' I.,didn't ask-you intentionally# Oh, you do intend 2, , to sell it/you know- it1 s 'in' the product.when you1re selling '3 it? ' /. ^ _d . ;V - 4v 1 ' ^r:/ / \ A ./ .Mri- Carr >- J- - 5 Q Excuse, me Me,*. Park; You .know it Vs in the product 6 when youTre selling it, don *t you/ sir? . * - 7 i 8" 9 'A ^ I'd have .to-go check* .Perhaps in tiny guaniities, *T'* " * ' " * Q - whatever quantity, -You know it's in the product 10 that you're.'seliing-f don't you, sir? ,, 11 A . / Not as a product. - 12 Q, It's in the,product you?re selling*. Itrs part .cif 13 the product that you1 re selling? iBn1 1 it, sir? . f * ,l '>* '. r r - > 14 - A In tiny amounts.; ' 15 Q / And you are ^marketing; that, aren^t you/ sir? 16 -17 18 . A We*re-marketing the;prpduct. '/v ,> . : Q ' / 'And" that product has in, it phenol/; it has in it 'chlori ne, it -has in it chlorinated -phenols, it. has in it 19 .dioxin, doesn't it/ sis? j; V._, r J 'p e n c a d c o ,, 20.- A : It may-hayK trace amounts, of unwanted impurities* '21 - 'Q - And you are Belling those unwanted impurities, , 22. aren*t you, sir? they're part of the product, and you1 re m- f/'- 7\ i \ ' v v 23; -- marketing itVyarenH^you,*, sir? A\\ - V .iV" '-. v!'5*-`^y'-* '-j '' *"i* 24 A That may be present -in the prooddtuct v being markete 3* J./. "^ i. .." . s -J',-;i;\i fk-iir-*>-,.-n'./^4j i;`iii.!yf V .' >-,* r . 85 1 i-t r.i/ jk- T 'N '3N M 0A V S 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 l 24 Q Yes* Wow iho next question that they*ve asked' you is whether or not you've researched or authorised research in the formation of dioxin, and you admit that you did 90, don1t you, sir? A yes* Q Shan the next one they ask you is whether or not studies prepared by or for Respondent have determined that dioxin is a potential by-product in ;.fche manufacture ot chlorinated phenols, and you deny that also, don't you, air? A- Because of a difference in opinion about the mom* inf of the question, yea, we deny that* Q You deny that in the same sense that you denied . question number 8 , didn't you?-' A well, it was denied* Q You denied it for the samereason you denied ms&feer 8 , isn't that correct, sir? A , #hafc and there may well have been other reason^ here* 0 The next .question, number 1 1 , they ask you, term dioxin refers to IS different compounds, dependent upon the location of the chlorine atoms within the dioxin molecular ., > 't ' i' structure,B and1-Vyou * " deny,the _ - *1 1^ r ^, *' ` <,, A Yes# * s"ir.' truth of that, . H %* * & ' don't you# sir? '*' _ . ,, 's 1't Q Why do you deny that, sir? /,, 86 '* ,,I 2, , 34 5 6 7 ';8 9 10 -- 11 12 13 , 14 15^ 16; 17 18 19 20 21 22 23' 24 A r, ih 'response:, states because dioxin refers to a broad class' of-compounds estimated to .exceed 1 0 ,0 0 0 in number# .Q ' .And it isn't.commonly referred to that there are n: y ;-;a ;7 ;; . ; . r" ' i 1 , .->-- ^ MR MUSGRAVE: Object to;that,your Honor, That's not what the question was ^that was asked# / ' ; 1 .. / ; ' - THE COURT* Number 11? ` " - - . 'MR. M0 SGRAVE* *'Yes. \ . . t h e c o u r t i Overruled. .. - -/ : \ 7V -V.MR.* MUSGB&VEi ' Number1 'l^l? ^ > , * , . ; THE COURT:v Number 11, You may proceed, Mr. Carr Q\ c \{By Mr* Catr) Isn't that what your-, lawyers andj r^ \ fV ' ' ,' r* . L- you and your scientists and your chemists, and everybody else has said that there are 75 different dioxin isomers? . - r " .MR* MUSGRAvisi object# .It's irreleyant* * Q .(By Mr .Carr) Some people have said' 72, -others have said,75 . lan'.t.that exactly what they're saying ..here, ` '' -r , r p * " i* L sir?' . -r MR.MOSGRAV^;. I object/' it's irrelevant to the' n . * rI ' *^ i > j S\ 1->ques't,io,L n, ..t..ha*ts'.si a-j:t~ handTV*,x--. i,^ ' *- - ` i v 4 t X; .*r V`ij y THE WXTNES&V'V:No >VMr *var `' -- 1'>. ' MR* MUSGRAVEs And the, question speaks for itself ' -.7 ' ; v 7V >: Ji y. * * -. 'cv. . . ..r 7 7> 7., ' as to what:was.asked; ^There's no Wordcomraonly in there, or what people might; generally,think* ' ' `V.-, "i'\\ ; - *.v*~ ''*v 7 ' ^ rv t'' f ,, .' ' ,-V ' V - ^ J-i, < ` ,r,. r ' .'. \V vJ 87 QATONN Etj N ,J,  I THE COUETs' Objection is overruled It's a prop&i ' fic 2 question It's relevant. '*' ' i _\ 3 Q (By Mr. Carr) Did you answer the question, Mr. 4 Park? 5 A 1I did,'Mr. * Carr.' The answer^was no, r 1 i 6 Q And number 12, you deny that fcetrachlorodibenso-p* ;t I 7 dioxin refers to 2 2 potential isomers, each containing four 8 chlorine atoms in varying.locations, don'tjyou, sir? i 9 MR* MDSGRAVE.s Objection. It's a misstatement J 10 of the question, your Honor* The question in its entirety ", t 11 must be read, your Honor, and he is not doing that. He*s 12 taking it out of context. i, 13 THE COURTi Objection is overruled* It's a proper 14 paraphrasing of the question. i 15 'Q (By Mr. Carr) .Excuse me. My question is you 16 denied that.the term tetrachlorodibenro-p-dioxin refers to 17 2 2 potential isomers, each containing four chlorine atoms in 18 different locations. You denied that, didn't you, sir? 19 ;' .f A As you have stated, I have to day no, Mr. Carr* ! i P1 20 Q Well, did'you,admit that, sir?! - J '* ;; -,'v * ^ s > ' 1 21 A That question was not one of tiese in the Request 22 for Admissions. ;; ; ` V, ' ' V. . * 23 Q That question is not -- 24 ; . r < j- ` t. V - A You jdidnft 1read the whole question, Mr. Carr. 1 MR. MU 3GRAVE: The one you just read, Mr. Carr, 2 is not what was asked, Mr. Carr. 3 Q (By Mr. Carr) What did I just ask you -- 4 A j Would you like me to read the entire question 12? . 5 Q Y o u .tell me. i 6 A You left put the paren statement -- - _- 7 Q Hereinafter referred to as' TCDD, didn't I, .sir? S A Yes. 9 Q Did it change the meaning of the question by' 10 leaving that out, sir? 11 A I think you did. ' r 12 Q - How so,.sir? ,, 13 iii A because TCDD -- the term TCDD i!s used elsewhere 14 in here in another manner,,a confusing manner which raises i 15 i questions-as to what'was intended by the as'ker of these 16 questions.1 r 17 Q * `You'don't understand thab TCDD lis referring to -i 18 tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin, exactly`as they say there, tetra* I 19 chlorodibenzo-p-dioxin, -'hereinafterjreferred to as TCDD? , - . -* ;,tF.\- i: -t *, '... ' . ii 20 '" ` i.\ v A '.- l * * .I ' I A The next question he says it's a toxic compound, 21 ' v . * | Q 'L e t 1s.'look/at question number 12 first of all. 22 YesV 'We denied this because of confusion over the 23 definition of -TCDD' by:<th, asking .parity', 24 i. Q And where is the confusion over Iwhat is a tetra -- what is tcde>?. A Did the asker of these questions Intend that that term mean an isomer# a compound, a specific entity# or a broad group of entities# or vrhat? Q You can't,see? He says it refers to 22 potential isomers You're denying that# aren't you, sir? A ,, Yes* - Q And you -also deny number 13 # that TCDD is a toxic compound# don't you# sir? > A Yes. Q Well# you khov; it is a toxic compound#, don't you# sir? ' A It's not a compound Q What is it# sir? A That's a question -- 0 It is a compound A We are limited by the terms used in this document# you see# at. least at the time' we dealt with this * ,- , > \ \ ' l Kf ' * 1 ' J Q Well^ does this somehow or other define compound that allows you to. say why this doesn't fall within the frame** ' '* ' V ' V * J k *'*i `r '* *- ; v . . . \ v- work Of the word compound? Is there some word -- A There W s enough Inconsistencies.and confusion# ambiguity# concerning use of this term. Q Where# sir? *1r j, A ' I guess in; 11,; 12, 13.-'-; - ' Y. & Where is the use of the/word "coinpound" confusing? '| A . '^ -- "and -'further on. " It appears, to refer to a set j' '' ., ' ' ,y 1. ` ' of isomers, in. 1 2 ,' then..he's talking about, apparently, a I" ' , - \ ,n- . s p e d fie-compound in `13./ f J~ \ ' ' *. 1 -r' ' - 1- ... \ yj Q- ;.,what, is ia compound, rsir? ^. - ]" A. I'm riot sure. I know, in the context of this at this moment* * j . V- ^' 1 -i ^ rY ,- r -4 . /, - 1y i . ./ \ Y y , 'I ' t. , Q *;Did anybody tell you ."that TCDD was not a compound? i. A -- *r S' ^As defined in this'document.. - " Q -In any document, anywhere, v y >Y -Y Y j \ A1: i-. No, no, we1're.limited to this document, Mr* Carr,, when we answered itfY -Y . Y ,, Y' \: ' . - >; ^ . *. -- r " 'j-L ^ -, > - , lr. j "- < i ; YQ Is compound defined in this document? ! ` . . v. . ,Y-'- - ' J * *- * *J '* -t / " (j | :A ; The word compound was not defined, which was ` ! ` Y Y " -' ` Y Y : ;Y Y * unfortunate. -YY k 1Y Y Q All; right. ;lThen you used >the .common-/- accepted 1 r `ro* Y y j Y Y V YY.-~yi Y `-v;>Y^" Y;,*/ v- Y ,r . definition of compound/..wouldn't'you> vMr- Park? 1 ! .J A I1. / . t `.`j * A .No;,- we,'-wouldn't7 because,--*"'- * 1 - :>.%. iL*r,>'-^ , . ;. 11 iJ vj,,sf . ' Well f'what would you use -then-/ sir? ,The common-,practice throughout-.the trade is to deny it and then the;first party will, come back and ask the, question -r ' 1 ' .; r \ -, , ' * I * ' ** --/ '*#'* * r i ' + ' r . i ' - . -. ; . Y - ' "( ' Q v l* I'm;talking about' the1,word'compound/ sir,;: V , - ^ 91 1 2' | " J <l ri. V ` ' 1'' rr, . If * ' ' *" * - *'*,, "- 1 r-Y ,h 1- f ' - , ' . .' " `i / - ^ . ` - > " ,, " ` ^ .. - F t ,,' , ^ m ' * J ' ,,, _* |' A - I' , Y e s , ,1 'm t r y i n g t o say#-<: ; ' ,l , S i W h a t ,is .t h e m e a n in g o f , th w o rd com pound? / f 3 , . '` I' A- 1y T h e p a r t y " t h a t a s k s t h q u e s t io n , M r* C a r r , , - 4 ' -' -* " 'E x c u s e m e, I ' m a s k in g ;y o u th e . q u e s tio n a t t h is - W 5 t i m e v i h a t V i s t h e : m e a n i n g o f t h e w o r d c o m p o u n d # : ^ K> 6' ^j v 71 , / 8 - '/ o. 1 1 -w a s p * t c l e a r s t o u s w h a t h e m e a n t * , , C ^ . Q ; . W hatV d o es it ;m e a n to y o u , s i r ? : , ;1 -v a. T h e q u e s tio n w as w h a t d id it ;m e a n to th e OSHA 9 : a t t o r n e y # ,, Y - ; \ ' * * . . . > ': 10 . i Q ; :* M y q u e s t i o n t o , y o u , ' M r# P a r k , w h a t . d o e s t h e w o r d 11 . compound m e a d 'to - y o u ? ' ` s L7 I? ' 1-2. , ' r ; . ' a I'm n o t s u re - w h a t i t w o u ld m ean* - i3 ; . ' Q ^ I ' m a s k i n g y o u r M r.^ P a r k , , w h a t , i t m e a n s ,t o . y o u , , 14 A : d o n ' t k n o w ,, M r* C a r r , r : \ ; : <f 1 ' . , " 15 : Lj\ - Q ; j T h e n - if 'y o u 'd o n 't kn o w , M r. P a rk ,;,h p # - c a n yo u d en y 16 , / t h a t - t e t r a c h l o r o d i b e n z o - p r d i o x i n i ; s>; c o m p o u n d ? y 17: %^ -V V r \. H . . B e c a u s e thoW e t e c h n ic a l p e r s o n s ;w ho w e re 'g iv in g 18 . u s a d v ic e on t h is Y r a is e d :a q u e s tio n c o n c e rn in g , w h a t i t m eant#' 19 v- -. , ' r * "s-S : -j/' ; ,- Q .T h e y t o l d y o u - - " ' , 1i *' 20 \ ;/ r ' . `; A ' ` , ' T h e y f w e r e ;: c o n f u s e d . b y ? i t * f - ^j ; 21 ' - 22 ' V ,, ; Q . ;.D id id ie y t e l l yo u t h a t te tr a c h lo r o d ib e n z o ^ p - d i o x i n w a s' n o t a : co m p o u n d ^ '.a n d i f s o , w ho t o l d y o u t h a t ? ` 23 \ t " / A . : ' I t h i n k , p e r h a p s , 1., t h e y d d i I t h i n k t h e y m a y - 24 - h a v e s a i d t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f c o m p o u n d s ^ t h a t c o u l d f a l l L \ J v ** K" . J ' j . r * ** -I 1 # r , 11 * . PENGAD C O .. BA YO N N E, N .J. V *l -1r"_ 'L- ' J j 1 r. *j _ - ^ ^ ^ , r' J ** i within thatrTCDD term# 'and that some" of those are relatively ' not -toxic./ - ; - r'''h/ >- `" l*. '- ; Q \ lieli, relatively iis, a modifying word* we're not worrying about the. meaning of the word compound now* - We f `r f' ' ' S ^1 passed from that* .Because.you do know# and; you do_agree that J "f r J 1 f 1! j . #,L J. 1 ; ^ ji the'word compound -would ...encompass a t'etrachlorodibenzo-p- . .dioxin because.,it is a compound#- it's, made of-more than one .substance? .isn't "that" correct# ;"sir? ` l .H . rj * _ ,'* ; *,,j kL A X -don't think so#: Mr, Carr* -' v >, ^ *'* jrV . Q Well# v;hat'is a compound# if that's not the case? A -In. another context# not,this-document, I would -- ' ' _ ** * , .* - ' * \ * " * V' ' i/.j r ' ( ' take it to mean a substance "or chemicalV . ' v,.' -. Q Well# dioxin"is.-a chemical#, isn't'it# sir? 1 A :p Dioxin is a large .number of chemical's,' hundreds perhap?s S * . ;;>. . ' i,o\ ' ' ; j > i* <, u i \ J* A . ,, * .*>,, * . ^ r . , lir'ir-i fv `i \ y/ "/ ,V / - ; . - Q~ 1 And#1.therefore#/it's a- compound# isn't it# -sir? , .A ^Q :No# not a compound;," {; ., ^ - h " - -a- ; ` > |' ^ 'L *** p4-1*' * * ` 1 ^ ^ - 1, ' '* -4 p^ ' F ' Well# it's'not a compound# and that's the reason you denfied th^at? vj' *"Tv /w4"V-;j Ijyf;iPt* '-vX'r\ t *A ^ies* Because/there was something, that ,was not - correct about it. V - Q '4 What about the "word- toxic# do you consider that " J, / f ." " - , ' ' r, * '.; \ ' r A ^ F< . ,r , . * . it's toxic? Is that the'reason youLdenied`it? , v A . .That could-have been a reason right there* ; Q ' That ,coiildnhave been?; ' A `Y Y b s i - ' - v Q v' Because- relatively it's not as' toxic,'as all TCDD ~ different TCDD isomersg one is more toxic than.the .other? i. , A . ' Some are-relatively non-toxic as 1' understand* - V Q ^Yes. y But they*re-all toxic, aren't they*'sir?. So why do you deny that It's toxiq? B ^ -.MR. MUSGRAVEi Just moment. ;Just a moment* Ate you asking.that as a question, Mr. Carr? . ' lr * * ' -/ , MR. CARR* ves', indeed; I'm waiting for him to ", - *' f ' Jt',. -V- 1 ' L` ,- 1 , 'v*. ,, " ' answer* .1 ' ,v rV y rv '- - - ' : .. THE WITNESS*' X. don't know that'they are* _ . .0 - ;(By Mr. Carr). You don't Know that...All right* # ,, r ^ t JV - j "r S , That* is the Reason: you denied, it, because you have no Knowledge -*fl', v'r v i y tv '7/ u \ ;'l|.. y . ; oh that point;i"is^that'icorrect,%:sir? yr .* / * .a V *.:ri6 . p y ;X ^ y iv" KV> & ... `.iVvJ `-i"V ,;Y Y- `i-"'.'' Q : -Well i why 'did you deny it? - y .' ` : '. - ;, :rA -, BeMc,yau1-s-e "?"one.^o.ra mor- ev i"- th. iv ngs about- , it tha>t were not correct^ so it was denied. , " \ U*_, r K , ' -j ^ -- "y, ur Q yAa<3.you denied also that,it's generally recognizee as themost toxic dioxin'compound?-/; n A Recognised by whom, Mr,. Carr? ... Q _ By. you, sir. , =-. y y ,, A viffo,vsir* _y y \ , ' v;:'; ; - ` 'y--', , 1 ; * Q_- \0i' generally recognized by the scientific world. ';- 2 r . at large*.;/ . '1 j '< : 3 \ MR. MUSGRAV3s Where does it say1 that Mr* Carr 4 in the-question? / , - ; ^ * -, ' * 5 .MR* CARRs ; The word generally is. there* in the ,P o *t ,( ' i_ 6. question* ; 7 ^ , v ./ * * . j- -*v " r . ; < t '"4 ^ ` ! r ** l ^ P . * -J - 7 > MR* <MtJSGRAVEi > The words you, just put'into It# '8 Mr* Carr, where does It say that in the question? 9 Q 7 .(By Mr* Carr)1" Mr* Park, you understand what the 10 ' words "generally recognized" -means, donst you, sir? ir J r ... - A ^ Not when they:come -- when we*re li`V^mLijnted by the 12 'words on this paper* ;.; j .13 Q : Well / my question is aside from;that,JMr. Park, 1. A -s ii <\ u- > - ; 1 .<1 ' > ' 7 * ,. , M you do know ;what`the. words "generally ^recognized0, means, L vt s' ;T > ^k ; w ' . 1 . . 1 - 15 don*t you# air? ' ' k -.i S x - ; v y 16 A'^ \* A- " j 7w * e l l,,,r -V,yesV`y,:?,a'+'n'*d.1*-I;''!-don*',t" r,--know1 ; , i. .. . - . t `t. ' 1- - l Tr ( T' * 7, ' ' ,,S * 1 17 ; " ' Q '/"All right.; Now,.. Mr, Park, just one thing at a. .-- . . , ; !} * " . ii;-. ;* i'.1 ^' ^Y 1 T ' : . ' 18 time* '-you do know what the, words "generally recognized" k. BA YO N N E. N .J. 0 7 0 0 2 19 means? ; 20 ^ - A - ; 'tio; N o , if you-put-them 4 h a context* 21'r V :. Q ; Sir? ; ' L 1 . '' ; 2 2 ' ' A- Put .them in a context,.. Mr* Carr*- 23 . Q X intend,to do so aftr I .get'.yur agreement that 24 ` you know the,meaning of.those.commonly used words* 95 r.^ : *J .1 :2 , \ 3 4 5J` .6 7 8; -9 10 11 12 ` a 13 / 14 15' 16 * 1.7 V 1819 ' * ' No,`i donft'kriQW that I do, Mr. Carr. . Q You don \t know; that you know the meaning of the . ' *r ' -.P ^ \ , i* < "l ' ' 1 ,A . > i' S - ` 'F / . ^ fr L- * ,, . ' * f , ' words a"generally recognized?" - '_ \^ '" ,* , ^ ^ F "j ' J J A A Generally recognised, no. j A` 1 r Q Do you .know;'the^meaning of th word "general?" ' ' ', " ` -..." ,. ' t ' J,r ' ,- V A I'm not sure ! know the .precise meaning of that. Q *r" ,rDo you, know a commoniy accepted, meaning of the. word "general?" . ;X . ^ t/ r.' / A No. . -* ^ J - \ , '' - \ Q , You d^ir't know-that. ;Do you know the/meaning o f .the word ?recognised?* ; > '? A -, 1 know the meaning qf;;the word "recognized." Q '' You do know the meaning'!of "the word "recognized?" A Yes. ^ n < - -v t - "J ^ *' r * t1 y. \ *\ \ j.u r * *'' " ', Q . All right; uBut' you donrfc`know what generally ,,/ . . 1 *.j-* ;; i -~'i-'/.' . ' fV v xj \rt1 V,* , >, Sm-.vjl-j; !:,, m1'"' " - -y ,. j->. - r S' , \ mean is that correct, Mr. Park? " ^ -''J '*' 'i/ f ;T r > ^ r.; -/ A :Mr^ Carr ;; ,, Q ' .. A If you donvt know, we* 11 pass on, sir ,,.j' , J. Okay. -'4:*/./ " / r -K *[! 20" ' ' 21 ; 22 . .23 Q You don't know, what the word "generally"means? .A^ , we. didn' t know what the writer meant. Q Excuse .meV Mr*Park, Ifm asking, you about what yot . ..,v. * '' 1. J j H* ,, *l k know the word "generally^ means. I'm not asking you about thi 24 writer. ^ r *k -- / 96 BAYONNE. N .J .r OTODI' 1 A In many contents I do know what the word means/ 2 Mr* Carr, obviously. 3 Q All righto Well, apparently hot so obviously 4 because you denied it a moment ago that you knew what it 5 meant* v 6 A Okay* -pj J 7 . , ME. MUSGKAVEs Without content# Mr<> Carr -- 8 Q (By Mr. Carr) What you1re saying now, -in this 9 context you don't knww what is meant by the use of the words 10 "generally recognised*" is that correct, sir? 11 A That'scorrecti 12 Q And; the samething,; it you! re what you're i i ' L' v.i iiii .'i * ,1 ` jj 13 talking about is because you're not In that mind of that 14 person# and you d^n't knpw just precisely what that person V .^ : .'i 15 means, so you're just going to assume then that it's to be -** /* '. ` i , '* i 16 have no attention paid,'to it/' and you're not going to give it 17 the commonly accepted useage, are you, sir, or meaning? 18 MRe MUSGRAVS% Object to this line of questioning, 19 your Honor* These are questions asked, that have to be 20 responded to in accordance with rules,*and no one is required 21 to assume what is the lawyer drafting these has In mind. It 22 is the duty of the lawyer to be specific with the question 23 so they can be responded to. It's unfair for Mr. Carr to question in this regard, with regard, to this document, by /- 'y -, Vv ` - i- .`,u^h'. V -* '* t ' t: _v - `` , V, , 1, '- -\^11V, 'k . -, -,/ .: . : l Y - > v <,,- V -i - 4 ~ .4 J"'- . - >;K,` V" ' : - Y . > J j-''.. ' ' 4 ' /Y taking it out of cunfekt p th rule that'govern the 1. 2 ; 3 responses that.,are "made* 1 ,, *f -* "! , ~"jr ' ' jT- * -. '' j . J- % ^ , ;r- * THEJCOURT? ;''His 'questioning is completely within the rules that govern Requests for/'fissions, ^common to both 4\ > ` ;ikk! -v/*' . ->YvY" "" - Y `*Y v-YYY, ` '' - the state; court, federal court, and th administrative agency 5: \ in the federal system , The objection" is overruled* 6 Q (By Hr. Carr) -Uov?/ Mr Park, question number 4, . Y *>sY r\ ,; *../ ' Y 4 f * / Y Y -Y' * Y* -F r '8 ' ""*V you den led that.2 ,3,TVS- TCDD is.genefally tecognired; to be:. - * a*k1 v._'-j -1<n '^ JY Y*'y"* r*ri, 1 *..L;-< --> " t rf Y ^jr * ^s"yt th most toxic of th. ttraf iSO^rs#*didn,t,you, sir?, ,9 p /'J h A `,y -ys* r- '10 0 ' / 'W e ll,v i you;'.do^Ckhcy.;!^`p o in t of- fa c t th a t"' 11 - ;-j. ' 2 , 3 ,' 7 ,. .* -- 3 T,CDDMs g> ren'- eifriaO-iiryH-vrocot ' t g'n\ira^\od' t* p >",-be, the- srios" t\ to x io " of 1 2 J - Y 1"1 '3* . ' :,r r , -j " ' `\ ^ J.the feetraY isomers;,, donVt-you,Tsir^ i Y `' ',/Y\`Y-'.-Y- <v'-' 13: , *> . l';. ` U *. k*-. `h U \ r A ; V Not, , > svth p :t^ermo/ ' V - \ ate 'uadI ` J , "in th is :p a rtic u la r ,? 14 :V^document#'Mr* :Carr*,7 p'r. ;U Y \ J " .Y ^ Y Y V '-YY 15 V , `'C v:`./ 'W ell,, how n; earth -- 'what raeanirtg, can -you get " 16 . frpmYthafe, -other .theui the words, ; ir? " . -YY. lY "n , Y Y A v; if there Waa anything about it not'totally correct 18 J^ j * ':'Y:..S:Y k'* :v\Y\-Y'YYYY'1-'^'' r'>Y r , -,Y . ,r>,"'v- T '..'r 19. ' Q ; What is it tiiat^s not totally corrct? Y r- , ` -1 V : 1 * '- '. j- - - - .A The term TCDD has confusion in it as it5 used 20 , ' . Y/Y'Y: - ,-Y ` . *v ;ih -these/documents-'is-YpneV/ '!''Y J,Y . 'Y- 21 ' . ;v 22. 23 ^ y Q TCDD i they feell you up above ;there, is short -for ^ L` ' ; /Y ' ^ r -; ' hj , V* J ^ ^ 4 " Y LL ' ' * .1i r * - ( F' tetrachlorwdibenro^prdioin you sec that, don*t you, sifiY ' - w 1, 1r ,. ~ '>- *, j '' >m- ' ^ ^ . f fc. '24r.' T St* . ^ r 'r - \ - 41 J , ^ V I -1' ,r 1 `A '^ t,cYiJ., J t `m .A J * 1 ( k J- \ MR, MUSGRAVE* ' -' J . J- J*t* vf - rl\'" ^ - *J ' ^ ^ ^rjU- 1 *' L r- ^ ^ Just,a.reomentf Mr* Carr. Above 2 ' it says it*s 22 'isomers,/: 7 7 - 7 '4-/ ''>- ._. J1'1 ' 4 . J"- /' v-.-` / .7".J' *7 7:7'"-c 7 3 Q (By/Mr..Carr) You ,see^ that>"don't you# sir, TODD `4 . '-is tetrachiorodibenzo*-p-dioKin, hereinafter Preferred to as ^ 5:*7 TCDD, you see that, d o n . y o u , sir? 7 7;. .7 , 7 ' ,6 . 1" \ 'j 7 }Q h .;7 Yes, sir, '/y :'-'J\7 7 `7 7',Y -- i .r'.`' \ 7 --i 7*7,7 ^ ' ''. They use; that termTCDD, tetrachlorodibenzo-p- '8:-" 7 / dioxin, you. see that, sir? 7' "Y 1 7'- - I..`V \ 4 , J; V ' \A - .v Yes-. . .-7 7 7 -9 1h ^- ' ** >7 r, ;sf ' A .' * it^ h m L- '. 1 L' L ' 1r ; 7*,;, *v\- . V 77 7/ 7 * ,, H- * - '7, 7'r'7^'`- 7 '7 ..7 "- -7V--, -* . - ,, 4 t, c -- ^ - I-- i , V. . * I - 1 v p J . 11 ^ 10 / 7 1rJL' i v-:1v:, 11- : ' ' ffain 4^i r;A ;'. Yes^v'sir^V;^ -v.C d v- ,a . 12 i + < 1 '3 4, 14 V 'of -tfe.ltetravisomers,\lih^t jii';sirSi'i' ^ > 15 ; ;sA ; :There would be^another difficulty with the term ; t K- ~' *' 1 r ',*F^ r ^ ,.Jwt*\ xv.^ ' k >11, " ": fc; 4^ * v 1h ^ * v-p r - ' ^ 16 ^genefally recognized^* <and finally with the term " t e t r a d { ' 17 *` 18 / . Q " A l l right. I thought wo agreed we knewwhat the ; f : --,'J'ri" ' ' ' " '; *' `" , rL*.^ 'J 1 ' * "-k*"u >-* ' :.., i--4' word1 you \Hhew what the word. "generally* meant r: J 19 J 20." ''" .. A;, ::M6 t.in this context,; Mr* Carr I tried to. make . `}V V" l' ,'1 , " V'Vr/ ' r ^ . "r ; ',v_ . , "J> that clear l*m-sorry*}, - ^ . -v ^ 4' 21 .7 9 `Welly what do ypu think it means in this context? 2; 2- *t- A We did not know what it meant in this context; ; >>< 23, Q ' , My question is what do you as a lawyer, a graduates V. r- 24 v"4 of; -law, school .years- of college t--:\i. .,./ . : : /1 2 .3 ' A/ ' ' t r5y^ i'"-j ; j^-1r*;j:A - nr V_?*J J-i s_.nfc-;-th'.pointy;>1* Catr*.,`-:\/ Q " -Yes7 kVis*. ' *' -t ' ' r . 'V :-,, ? . . /\,s,-.1 '.<> ` r ,J. A No* ife\ lsriftV;'V*-''- '' /7:' ; V '^ ^ 1* > ?J fc - .4:J Q actly ;tie. pointi'-- . .7 ' / ,5> ..'.V M A m WSGRAVEg .I object to the question .because ;' 6 * it is not the poiht*/ Whet he nay think it means in responding to therequest ions is totally irrelevant*; Putting hi own 7 '''8 J' .interpretation oh words that may have other meaning to other 9 -, ' 10 p e o p l e * ' ' " - - o b j e c t - t o - 7' > / 7 '. '-V.i* i'>-.-vr\ 7 i:_r j-$ j-'i/' K'7 1, ' V /,/ -L x *"7/ -.' THE CQ0i^Vv7objection>isf overruled* It is /n properly he point,in answering the Request for Admissions; < 'JV< ,. ` J'r 7 Y';Am ' .. 'Vr-*' ^ 7; ^ v \ VV ` ` -V' ->''*** ^ r r- r: v , --- 12 -You may proceeds c J(/ v A /' ./; '..v/';;, - % : *r ,'.13. - 7" - '. i wh'atjit, means,-in a given.- 14, r 4 */ 15 context* - , - 7-r'm ./ ' &t*i cairky'*Hr*- Park W ' *7* . ,v ^ ;.v^ 7 v 7 :-^.' . ./ 16.; v' S 17 A ' i did not know what it meant in this context* . Q i Then you could have responded to.'.thkti'-^We^beXievij} Vl'8 ,, the word generally means* 11 and then'give your definition of . .lp:\ th word generaXly*' if you are. using th word ^generally** in PEN CAP CO.* BAYONNE? N J 20 'r that/sense our responso or ..our s^swer to, that request is yes '21" or no^ depending on whatever to: say* Xf there is m i ' 221. 2324 thought in your, mind about the rnsa^nisn'g of the word# you know that you haveth right to say we are answer this to the assume ' ' / ' 5. ^' * ' , ` ^. t j ' " ^ ,' 1 r |j J * t1 ' ' <- - ,, J . , ^ - , T' * tion that you;aan "goneraily* means; so and so* tou; know thatfj ^7 ( r 'r. -<''T^^ F J * .v 1* * 1 ^ l- \ 7 : < >r ' 100 r> Jr ** : 'L'\1 *.\1/ ( don't you, Mr* Park? A' -./A' * ''V A-V.A, Cotinsel advised to answer.it'as we did. \ * . q :.A Excuse me., My question is you know that, don't you^ sir?;; ,r ; -A V A "V ' r *. - a ` We had the liberty tp answer it a number of ways, V 1 S* 4 r ''r 1 *r~,\,A**\r4./*^ .1L\r.*''-b *rr/J - .\ A V - '+_v ` I 'm. sureV^A ; A '`V ^ : A\' . A ; q .v, You could have made it very prcis what you meant Now what*o you believe, as you sit here today,-that the word ' `Ti 'ft ir'" f V /Am .;/'*A'fA'/ _ V .V; 0generally!1 means?- foefeme .suggest to you that it means that most people blieve something to be so. Generally means not ' - - ` ' ` ' J' !,*T - AjV*' VJ V*, \.' / i";i' .1 -r;'*.n fA .^ij--*V - J ^ V ' "' -' everybody $ but most ^people .^Commonly,, accepted o:rwot that eve&rryyoone says,so, ,but most .people say it's so.A That's the *r,>'<,i .j'V'`h i*rii i l-r5,<; j ' , , V.. ' V U ; W * :i V.-., . / ' ' .' word ^.generally recognized.*! Generally understood. That's th way you understood those two words.are to be taken, don't you, 1 sir?.A _ * - , . * ,p * . MR. m o s g r a v b V Object to' the multiple form of ; the question.} i; / 'A'A :A THE COURTt/. Objection is overruled* ' " ' ^ THE w i t n e s s 2'would have to answer no, Mr. Carr Q (By Mr Carr) I'm sorry? -A ; l would have, to answer no Q * And so you denied that it was generally recognized **" r *r * '* L to be the.most toxic of- the .tetra isomers, didn't you, sir? *^ A * / That's correct. . * * b *r - r .4 . . rot  1 '2 3 4 5 6, 1 8" 9; 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 V 17" 18 19 20 21 * , Q You also denied the next one# that you had analyzed sample of orthbbhlorophenol produced at theVi*G* Krumrarich Plant for the presence of dioxin# both, prior to and after February 7 # ^79# didn't you# sir? ,~ '/r 1 `f . ., i.-- ' . i ' - :* , r ' ' , A'r -' yes. ^'j V s , , .\ _ _ > '\ ' * ; Q yNow#,.again, you" know that the truth -la that you d i d ,analyze,orthochiorophenol# both before and' after February *j ^ y* - ; ' L ' , ^ r. * tha 7th, ^ ^ a b n i * ypu*j t k e f -T ;'<,,r ' :if, 1 *>- 1. iW1- 1 .is v -'VVi* \,;tv:f ,, i ' ** NO. ^ .l'* - . .. . - /; Vl `- , i 1 . __- JA xr;t. 4a t :y'? q ;V. .you *dbhl>tvknow that# sir?;^Your chemists know \ . ' "'4- '', - ' *:> ~ hX?t-h, - ,-'V.1J _ ' '- ' -,r * ' /that. We'v got the'documents, in evidence here#/sir. A V-;;-;! d^h8t think that's correct* I think -- . Q., % Oh# yea. ;:;Xn March of l? 8 Vulcan asked you t o , analyzedfor the.presence of dioxin# and you did.; MR. MUSGRAVE* In what# Mr.\Carr?' , MR. CARRt in orthochlofophenol. ;^ y M;R.; MUSGRAjV. `E`i', C*rud^e?. ;; : ,. ` ,^ V V Q . (By Mr. Carr) isn't that correct#, sir? A ,, l;think that Vas a different product# Mr. Carr. J: 1 v <>I - ' ^r >> ' ,, "_ *t L .- 1 ' You don't know that you're selling orthochloro- phenol to Vulcan and Reichhold Chemical? 22 L A I would assume that orthochlorophenpl mean a the 23 final product. X believe the other might be the crude# not 24 the final product - ; , '" - 102 . f , * t r` ZOOLO T 'N '3 N N 0 A Y 0 1 r2 3 4' Q Do you have a-product that you sell at the plant in 179 called orthochlorophonoi? -Hot the product you sell as orthochlorophenol crude* You don't sell anything,other then that# are.you* sir? S' a I'm"sorry# I just don't:know the answer to that, 6 7 8 ' 9 'Q ,, r Well f if you sell anything other, than the orfcho- n , . `.J_,Jl \r?, 'iJ '} ' r.?J r'i / - ' ' I ,f "V ^ -f.. :JV ; ' 'chlorophen: ^I;cruPd.e. # >iSt1?`B' rJiot*`Vs- 'hoi wI nT bny- :f the docum^ents'* and you ., - ^ * v; +J*-: : v . i k . z .> , > a. 4-.-. v ^* V j . * v i .j , - - s admitted in request number 7 that you manufactured orthbchlord- \ " rr;.IT?v v /<; - v- phenol *: and they 're .^^hSfVboti, thej orthochloropheiioi prbduc ed ip at that plant# aren't they# sir? ': i\ " r k. - n A 'Request, number IS Was V % tatemen%,or number 15 12 -/was simply incorrect* Mr. Carr* and I'm assuming that it was 13 because samples of this particular.product* the orfchochloro- 14 .phenol itself had hot been analyzed* _ v r. 15 q 'VBut you know that *itrs not. the-case you know 16 _that 'you've. seen -- '- ,j. ` ^ P E N G A O 'C O ., BATO N N E. N :J. 17 / ' .A NO*.,. : /.' .' * ` \ ` . . . ;< , '' ' j' 18 Q ': youfve seen ,the documents .where they% `i 19 analyzed. I've seen them to you# where they analysed the 2 orthochlorophenol* V ,, - * _ ,, * * '- i f ' V k^ j . d r. * r *r 21 A r .Crude?' 22 " Q They'renoteven talking about orthochlorophenol 23 ; crude# and" neither are you. You call it OCP in all ^of your" 24 ; documents# donVt you/ sir? -. 103 ''g-F , " l I don't Know#.Mr* Carr. ' \ r2 - U - You,don 't know;that *. /`he people, that you went / 13 j- ' '4 . to. for these responses knew though, didn't they/sir? A v: ' would ^assume so? 1 ' >5 6 : . : 7 - .8 9 " io.-:^ Q Over pn page the next page on question 17# you *'>v i' xtSV^f'^-/,1 ' '> S r`y--. ' - 'O i f\ '1 L `/S' 5 -*' * ., deny r- weir; that's ?not airborne concentration of dioxin* ",- .,-if^\"a. -i;v./'t; S."' t yr' v_ The next question# Id# you deny that chlorache is a symptom * y;V c* `.~i rr rs- `7- ; of dioxin exposure; dOn' tvyou^J sif? ; ;-'V` 1 v- ^ ... - J -A Yes. u j ,' h i,-iv, . ti `' ` ^ <./ L -; " Q : And you. know that it. is a' symptom of dioxin 11 vJ 12 exposure# dbn' t you# sir? -l . .A; . Ho* Not asJlimited by this document* - r - '-13 ,, ; s ' ' 7 '1 4 : , . ,Q .; Mr. park#; do you understand that the,witness# two witnesses preceding y# Dr* Relish/took th position that: Form jl h b . > e n * . c o . , p b a f o n n e . . n .'j ." ' o t o d z / 15; 16 -, 17 .. - 7 18.- J 19 S. 20 ir :, -/J 22 ' L 23 i 24 chloracne is the only symptom of dioxin poisoning# none others He\spent weeks here testifying to that* Do you understand# ; sir?. A _.r Q - ./ ;'7: V > 7 *; `'"r> ' r ' - .v * v>v . v- ' 1 ' - Yes. All right* .' , ., :* - ' V . [. - t :"',, -*.1 And he swore Under ..oath that it is~'-- " ` - 7. . MR. MUSGRAVEg Xs what? / .; . Q (By Mr*:Carr) caused by dioxin poisoning* And here you're saying in this document that it's n o t , ,;m r . m u s g r a v e ^Object* - , i-.r - - ' " Q (By Mr . Carr) -'-- a symptom of dioxin exposure* :`j/ 104 1 MR. MUSGRAVEs Object. Thafc*s contrary to what 2 the question ached. There*s two different questions. 3 THE c o u r t e Objection is overruled. 4 THE WITNESSs No. We8re merely denying this jC * * , * 1 5 Request for Admission,, Mr> Caret *\ 'r *~ * -i^1 , 'F ^*' * 6 Q (By Mr. Carr) Well# in this request, it is asking 7 you to agree that chloracne is a sympton of dioxin exposure* 8 A Not in the context of this document. X guess a 9 couple of things come through to me as possible reasons why 10 this was considered .not to be a totally correct statement* 11 Q Well, you must not agree with, what the word 12 "symptom* means, or what the word "chloracne* meant* v 13 A NO. 14 Q Or what the word "dioxin* meant, or what the word 15 "exposure" meant. 16 A Yes. 17 0 Is that it, Mr. Park, one of those words you don't 18 know what it means? . 19 A No. We feel the statement as written was not , 20 totally correct. 21 0 Okay* 22 A And, therefore, notsubject to being admitted. 23 Q Where is it not correct, sir? 24 A For one thing, it*a the dose that may -- r -' A 1 -*\ Q - There,' s. ho; mention about r v.v 2 A ^iiat1 S: right, there-isn't* */ . .V " -0 . ` ^ ' ... 3 \- Q ;:.'There!s no.mention about dose. * " ,, * 1. . ' , ` '* . *' - ' ^ . ' i - * i L *i 4 A- v That;1 srright.; , Mere, exposure to a small amount : {r\ -i,vA i :( :< r" ; ' ? >V ti ??'-*. '1"'a..,**'<<\ .. 5 may not result 'inichloracne : ^ 6 J -Q` ...t:;Ytes.T;-7So^:;i>. K\r : r r. v i<-'t Ay y A 7 . .-`'^A\^fv^i^'JiargV'faI^Uhti''lnay, " *-- -. ''' " ' . O - . -*1 ,, 8 J \ , Q \\ /^esV^'thatW/r,lgl^*'; v ^ ^ f J ^ L' _-v ,? A , ` We don't know. But chloracne can be caused by X<1 r j * 'H [*"* " / \ h - -\.:LP " -w .- - ^ ' IO', other things- ' : ^ V ' 1.V ; \ v v V _v t ; * 1 1 " ; ` Q ...-That 's truew' No dubt about that. . .ri.C 12 1 - - A .So.; the "statement as written -is1not'wholly correct 13 : At least that wasvthe, conclusion drawn six years ago* .* . j . ,' .i 14 ; Q It doesn't say it's1the^only symptom, and it* :15 - N doesn't asK you to say that it's only .dioxin that.can, cause 16 ; it* ' It doesn't ask you to ay the amount that can pause it* 17 It's a simple little .statement that you. had witnesses here 18 testifying,under,oath for a considerable period of time that * 19 chloracne was a symptom of dioxin ;e?^>6 sure, ; 1 -(J 20 v w - MR. .MUSGRAVE: Objection, that's not. the testimony ' ' L ' ' r : ' * ... 21 \Not exposure,. dose*:4 ^ , " '; -V;'1 ' 'ty *. ' ' r ' 22 - ,\ 23 - ' .MR* CARRs - It*s .not. the .testimony? : , * ^ v r ' v -r i j . V ... MR*MUSGRAVEt.- Dose.L Not exposure . f' " 24. ./ ,J7 . THE COURTi Objection is overruled. You may .. 106 07002 proceed/ Mr. Carr. * rJ ; q '(By Mr. Carr)1 Here in order' to stop this - 4 ^ r* J ' ' (; 1 1 ^ r, '^ proceeding^that was going;on, you.undertook todeny the truth - ^ \ >v' i: i/-- ? /.' J f r*. r` '* ':/0 ' ... ; - ', r' it1 '. - ; " l: *,- ; ; ' < tJ ' / L 1 of something that Dry Housh has'pointed .out document after .' '' J \ ^ " " ' .V,,, document, ehloracnjs is the hallmark o f ,dioxin exposure. . . . r v ^ ij. t l. f Chloracneis generally Recognized ah being,caused by dioxin , , exposure. Yet/hre you ;deny >it> don't you, sir? ; y s .k'r. LU>* < M; '7 '/ V* t'i 1-^ *i''' 1 ' *- " . A . it1totally false, Mr* Carr* ,-/V Q 'V That's totally false? /r'/J V. V '1L,;U '\ V-.- y-'\: ' / , -. A. , /That was'not the stopping proceeding at all. This; :Was merely: as.you see this was the first set of interrogato** - r . : * , - - ., - - 'v" if * l ' ries. Those that were not totally correct, we* would deny,, actually expecting \that Jthe .plaintiff, OSHA, would come back i,*Lf \ ^ t , _k . 1; "r '-r " v` >v:L-' f " *' * ` . , ` J*. .* '1 ' ' r (r, t r <. - ^ * "with some `more"detailed and more clear requests for.admission^ Q bid,you tell them, somewhere, did you write them . a 7document saying that number 18,. we: don't know what yo mean by that, we d^n*t agree*:. We don't know what chloracne is, or b e 1more.precise about what ye?1,mean by,symptoms / or be more , precise what you mean/by/exposure You1ve got the right, and - 1 " *. 4 - L ,` .you understand-that you have the right, don't, you, Mr. Park/! if you believe it's ambiguous, and you don't understand it, yoU have .right to object to it? You: have the right to say we cannot answer .that question because it's ambiguous, 1 y /ybecause we`don't understand what it/means* You have th right I 107 > to do that#- you know that, don't you# Mr. Park? & A . - Yes*; - Q -,, .-*j>Bu-1t: you '- d*.-'tv>dvn''i\t'---i -d-, vo *t*h- at-y w-rivt;h'i, f.the'se questions# did - . you# sir?, - ''j-"* i v,'\i 'V" ^ - . .. A Weydenled.those -Wiat were not totally correct* Q ; -And you _dicin't.,tell them that you^were denying ', r\; :V.' ` V*', , ' Ji . 'Ty.'1* ^ 4fm1"-Vi/y^ ii': V* '(-"** $ /' $- r - ,* 1`: . . -f. ' ,-, ' /.'>. >. '* it because'It was ambiguous# or you didn't know, what it meantj you just but right denied it/^didn't you# sir? / ' * A. \ , :Yes# if it was not totally correct* / '' Q ,;i Now #, don t .you1 reekin1 that they-*could have given- ' you more questions i f y o u s a i d # *Hey# we:really don't under stand what you. mean by that* / G i v e u s m o r e detail#* because we I "v i r ., rJ r \ , r m~w - ' " ' r" '' ' . '^ y ^ * * r* - 1 don't understand .what you mean by-symptom# or by dioxin# or by exposure*'1'. , (^ ' ;MR. MUSGRAVE; , Object to the speculation and., ; ,THE GobiKPfi Objection is overruled* * ' t<n _ f. ` r, \ . THE'WITNESSi What, we followed was the common' - * `' -- ^ -: . . *' method of practice# Mr* Carr, advised by a counsel experienced ' ^- t l ' Pr 4 if ,, 1. ^ K . */ - * - '" ' in OSBA matters.. V7evully;: expecfcedOSHA would come back wit* several series of questions ;that would define themselves* Q (By Mr* Cafr) ; But they didn't, did they# sir?- 'r ' *_ 1 * ; , ' * *m m J' A : I don't believe they did; toa y4 *r ^, n. , y** * BAYONNE, N .j, 07001 / , u .r 1= *QC . * o .* t .V 1 '2 3 ' 4 5 6 7 .` 8 9 id-. ll 12, 13/ 14 15 ,, 16 i. 17. 18 . 19 20 21-' 22 23 . ,24 A No* ;/ :rv:>-/v/:i ^ /f. a a / > / . ' : jQ .took-four denial; afc ,face value# didn't they. ir? fl\ . wNO<# t>a';-o;'-f'A'v ,v;V, v, y /i "<Va . u fat...r ii--; . v ' 'MR* MUSGRAVEi Object tothat# Objection/ speculf;- .t-' .- >-t1i :Aj* 7r r:;\v?1/ -; . ; I.-- V\ f- a /*, V. . - .- tion as to ;what "anyone <at`SHA did upon reviewing and receiving these# ^Hr'a h p foundation for that* It's totally specula-' tion and conjecture/ I object to-it* .; THE,COURT*- Objection'ip overruled* .' . Q J (By Mr-y.Cafr) .Did you write' them a letter saying to/them that if you*1 1 sndus somemore questions/ more precise questions#- and define every.word in your document# or the words like compound and symptom# arid TCDD# define those - for me# we can give you another set of answers? ' h ' n o .. " /a .-: . .- , . ; - . ..A*\\ ' }. J. . c ` ' ,, Q - \ Did you bay/that to them? ; ' / ' L ' No* / 'H*-./. : " i' ' ), jt + , , ... ' 1* Q : : No* Now on,question number 20 you. did admit that a chemical spilltook place# didn't you sir?. I * '` * ,, `' . v.A ../ `-Yes* /. - `>.- ( , V.' ' >. ^V' -v_j' .:/ \ j" w _ -, ` Q But you pfon^tly denied question number 21 because it didn't consist of brthoehlorpphenol# did it# sir? A / V I think that? s; correct* ;. Q j The spill consisted of 2,4-bichlorophenol that/ 109 ^ *r,. ,' . 1 % ' -1+ wl '1 L*'4- J r, -*-r 9r 1 t ' ri 'V ^ ,:{ i.f.t.M \V-;\ I took plaae ini-cbruary: 1979 r' " V .`.-V' J 'V-'A-rV- ,'*i ' /;. eight sic? S'r 1 - A -- - t t a # y y y y i- ' . .,y > y ;*7 r>>* -iy iv 'v. 3 7 ft. . But then they ^et a little more precise* , _ y t ' * They 4 say .the spill referred to in request ,number 2 0 , the spill ` ; `:J-*j V \ \tvt x'^OlV l *' 1 ;5:; from rail;carnumberACPii,23376tf don*t they,, sir?. *6 / 7- A `-i<V y r'- '' :' J4* ;;Q- : And it,did1spill rom that rail car, did',"it,not# . " ' yy V" _ ^1 -"\ " ,. 8 <4' sHi1r^? " - ^ 'v ,/ : 'J 9.., > '- 1 ff- r" 1 ? ~ 1* J ,, 10* 1_ -,ll' * "V Q y 2,What rail car did, it. spill roa? ,. . ,A \ thinkit was another .rail* car* 'y r "V`r>:' X- '> 'J J , , J* 3. V ' .r, .; . , '"* 12 - ":;i v-;\rwith'j..difrent number? ; 1 /' ' 13 A ^ ;`5fes* /. . > 7 % ',J' ,14 : Q ' .What numbers-were different, sir? 4* '15 - A. ,:i,dpn*t recall the nurhefi , 16 ,":v-\ "'ft' v Well, the lfo say then that approximately 3*000 17 r. gallonsspilXed, and-you denied that as well, didn't you, sir$ P E N O AD CO ,* BAYONNE* N*J, 18 .A ' Ves* J iV; . ' ' 1 J 19 ' ^ -J''' - Q r V why did you deny that one, sir? .v 20V A -Because- ifc*o incorrect. ; , ' ,j./' _, 21 .. - 1: Q J 22 i1 > A What is incorrect -about-'it? - y r.- j* ',\ '' -.'<- . - . "- i ' The quantity that the statement says was spilled' . 23 ,, - 'is incorrect* ' 24 J !q ; Well, what1 s incorrsct about it, sir? was it mor * ;r: t' K J BA Y O N N E , N . J , j '- r "" n* _ *- ' * 1 ' -' ;' *, - ; / v; - , -t-\ <> , S '\ f\ , :t rt; -fl ' ;V ' '- ' -` '* *" i **--v^x; fry / 'i > 'r^ fv *| j ", - 1 - than 3#000 gallons' or "lsa than 3#000 gallons# or what ,was it5 2 - A '-:r tf&ihk -t. may 4 :j ' '-* /, 3 Q ; .sir? '' - ',*s ` ,,v i ,' - \ "` P *-'iT'Vi ;.n : f` 1 4 - A ;.:^..I beliveit was" mbtev .actually* 5 Q - ; So because it was more you dnied it# even though 6 they used the word "approximately#" is that correct? 7 '' / A.. / The statement was incorrect. We would have been 8-. .wrong ;to' tave confirmed an incorrect statement, ' * 9 >. u'v"' Q ,.. * L' ' 1 '" "^ J ;0h# * but: why couldh11 you r li J . , , s a y .it * wasn't 3#000 `1 u * 1 '' "gallons that spilled# but it was - 5 #000.'gallons that spilled? . 10 , 11 12 / : J Wh^ couldh'fe you have answered that; way?. A " "F ' * . <TK . ^' -j \ J- .A, j Mr# ;Carr# because that?s not the practice*. ' , ,'Q , r Mr. -Park# 'it^s not the-practice at Monsanto that 13 .. * /' * ' ,, . b ,, t v* L| * * * -' 4 way*. But I assure you ifc.is the practice in many# many other 14 1 5 ' places to respond just exactly as I*ve suggested* ' >^ ^t -1 / ' ' r ' \m ^^ , -.j .. 1 r ^l j 16 A - ThatVs ;before the QSHA Review Commission* j , 17 , - , MUSGBAVE^ Object to. Mr* Carr's statement. .18' ' 19 /- . . Request that it be stricken* . : ' . - V. ' THE C O U ^ r Objection, is overruled* / 20 \ f Q , {By Mro Carr) Mr* Park# now you state there that ,21 j you ~ well* you do admit .that you analysed subsequent to 22:-, . the .clean-up of the, spill# and that is a true statement, you *> , 1 "V k , ' * * * ^ tU4 ' j ' %* * *j \ t^ 23 J ; had hot analyzed It ,,prior to the clean-up of the spill, had . . 24 ' F ,yOU# sir? - ^ ' ' / V - , F~ ' v ;` - , *^ . - * ., *J m i ,L > 1 A That? s, right' . i r ' / - ' ' ' r` 2 Q mow you do admit that you did fin the presence 3 of dio^Ln in your analysis, didA1*; you, sir? 4 A ' Are you in item 25, Mr.Carr? 5 Q Yea. 6 A Yes. 7 Q And the next few questions deal with the protect!* 8 measures given for the `Workers, which you admit were correct. 9 But over on question 33 you object because itBs something 10 that occurred at Sturgeon, and you deny what was said there, II don*t you* sir? 12 A Yes. This wasonadvice of counsel 13 THE COURT; Mr. Carr, before you get into that, 14 is this a good point for. a short break? 15 MR. CARR* 1Sure. 16 THE cou rts Ladies and gentlemen, wo*11 take a 17 short recess at this time, and then resume again. Court is 18 in recess. 19 20 * (Short >recess*). 21 22 (The following proceedings were had at the bench out 23 of the hearing of the jury5) 24 THE COURT; When can you get me the response to ' 5v 'y t \ ' i if y '( 1 r;, i; ,,? . pi _ 2. 3 ;4 5 6 7' -8 1 .9 Ip n; i' 12 13 ' r 14 / IS " 16 17 18 .19 ,2Qr ;2 1. -22 A I ' '24 T' '- - . *." .v.:.V` r;-wv'`Aj.s*'vA,,\v. >. if. rf'i--.v^1r11 --'/L/.,,\*<v(*'^'Ay'v^*. that motion? - Mil'ifN^MFlsvt^X-'teikedr^^-B^0 he said`he 'i , ' -. J >J 'V ^V ' 1<-(_ V.' - >' ' ^ could have it by next week. \ ' THE COURTi Seinetinie .next week? \ vMR ^MASSIF: Would that be early; enough? - . ' ''4* - A - , V': V ' v r. ' . Kr THE COURTS Can you make it early next week? ' ; ^ * `v `t m i V TV`irli''try;'-.*'/ . ' ;. ^ ;; ,;yv,;, if ;' r ; -. v-- yy -, V ' THE COURT* T h a ^ s -probably^ o k a y . y ' .`MR NASSIFr And the experts you1,re talking about : ; THE COURT*.: That will <be okay. - Thank you. r` 'l r *. * *. * .1 1 (The/following proceedings were had in the presence ; J , and hearing of the'jury:) ` ^ -. c - y _ j ^ - V'^(Plaintif|* s JExhibit, 1548 was marked for identification by the court reporter.) 'f . - ' -I, ` f r J'J .' Q - ;(By, Mr Cart) Mr Park^ In response to the r.eguest to' admit -BaV^as; I recall your reasoning;to that response# you said that'youvwere denying it because# or ; shouldrbe denied because :it's not a ;by-product. .That is the dioxin i s n o t a by-product:, a Do you recall that # sir? - A r\'yes^1 'a . - Q ./ Mow. do you iconsider that you might be guilty, of * 113 B A YO N N E, iN .J, 1 deceit in denying that it is a by-product? 2 A No. 3 Q 1 w ould like to show you Plaintiff1s Exhibit 4 1548 and see if you recognize that as an exhibit written by 5 Wilson on t;he subject of deceit, if you deny that that is the 6 by-product A 7 THE COURT: is this 1548? Is that the number? i ^ * 8 COURT REPORTER: Yes. r . 9 THE WITNESSi Yes, this is a memorandum from 10 James Wilson. H Q (By Mr.Carr) It*s a memorandum to.you in 12 response to yourrequest that he and others, that they give 13 you information so that you can respond to these OSHA citation 14 OSHA requests made in the citation; : 15 A YeSi 16 .MR. CARR: I offer 1548 into evidence, if it 17 please the Court.' 18 MR. MUSGRAVE: Object on the same basis as the 19 last exhibit* It's irrelevant, immaterial, no probative Value 20 and weight of the considerations to the issues in this lawsuit* 21 THE COURT:, Overruled. It*s admitted over objec 22 tion. 23 Q (By Mr. Carr) Dr. Wilson in this memo dated 24 October the `9, 1979, it states with reference to the request that dioxin is a by-product in the synthesis of chlorinated 1 phenols by saying, does he not, quote, My dictionary defines 2 by-productKl as Something produced in addition to the principal 3 product." To contaminate is "to make impure by admixtures" 4 There's no disputing the fact that, the aforementioned "dioxins" 5 Were contaminants in oiir chlorophenols However, I'm afraid 6 we will be guilty of deceit If.we deny that they might not 7 also be by-products. .Certainly the fact that TCDD concentra 8 tions declined following certain changes in operating procedure 9 at WGK argues that 'they were being formed as by-products of to manufacture Especially since those changes were designed to 11 - i" eliminate TCDD formation* 12 Isn't that what he says, sir? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q And you did deny that it was a by-product, didn't 15 you^ sir? 16 A - Yes 17 Q And Dr Wilson would characterize that -- well, 18 as a matter of fact, he said, "We will be guilty of deceit if, 19 we deny that," didn't he, sir? 20 A it appears to be what he said He was overruled 21 by the group as to the meaning of the word "by-product," as I 22 recall it. 23 Q Someone can:be .overruled' as to the meaning of wop 24 1} , r < 1 lp r-F, r ' . r - Words have meanings. %You can*t overrule someone-*, as, to the \ .'.y/ 2 ' ' meaning of the word, can you,; sir? \ , * V'' ,,V i" L,*' -, ' :: * .. 3 !' A ' The, meaning was his understanding of the term 4 "by^product/'V was' different from the way the others would 5 commonly- understand it. V-, . 6 , Q He*s referring, to a dictionary. He says it*,s 7 something produced in Addition to th principal product. That* s \- ' 8 " . exactly what it is, isn't,.it, sir? - .\ 9 . L-A 'Well, "it?,is an unwanted contaminant is what it is 10 - it* s not a by-product - 11 Q . Whether ifcVs a contaminant or not.; .Itfs produced r. 12 ' , in addition %o the product, isn*t It, sir? ; 13 Mr. Carr/ as;l Said earlier, many people, if not ' . 14 most, us th term "b-prduct" to mean something that is BAYO N NE* N .J . 0 7 0 0 2 FO RM IL 2 4 B *N* 1 5 IQOC, " 16 soo -, i;\ uZ |o o r < O 'Y Z U `. 17 is 1 19 , 20 21 produced and is old.-. It.wuld not be the principal -- . Q - The precis dictionary definition Dr. Wilson gaye . ^ -,- .V \ : `. you* He pointed out to you that you would be guilty of -deceit; -if you denied .itr. but, nevertheless you denied it? isn't that ` correct/ s i r ? . - , ' ^- A \ ' in our; response to; pSH. we denied that* -Q . ; Yes. w;o n . number 15 -- - I*m sorry, on question ' ; 22, 23 . 24 number 51 , that we|ve already passed by, and you said that it , : " , , , . " ` ' ' ' 'v j / -. f' - 1 , - `i f j i / i V' t ' j- ii " , ./* r -, t ^ j f j ,* was correct to deny that; ypu: hadvanalzed samples of ortho- 1 r; .. '. - '` V.' ' ~ - " i ' ; ' l * ` *' ' \ J' ' chlorophenbi produced, at the W*G. .Krusnmrlch Plant for the *' I '1 * r .y, l ' : ', r j J - '* ' C \ ,y - -_ \ r Y. ! .-j ' ..i , Vj : : . -, i .j r ' , *i _ r 116 f - 'h . ; 1, r -' -- . 1 `presence of dioxin prior to February the 7th# *79* Do you see 2 that, sir? > 3 A Yes, i see that 4 Q And X suggested to you that you had, indeed, teste 5 two samples in 1978. Do you recall that X suggested that to 6 you? 7 A Yes, X think X do* 8 MR* CARRs Would you mark this as an exhibit, 9 please* 10 11 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1549 was marked 12 for identification by the court reporter) 13 14 Q (By Mr* Carr) It's the only copy X have# so X 15 show it to you first# Counsel* 1549* 16 I hand you what9s been marked,,Plaintiff9s Exhibit 1549 17 and see if you recognise that as another memo written earlier 18 in point in time by James Wilson# to you# again on the subject 19 of 8a and now also on the subject of 15a* And on 8a he again 20 tells you that by-product is properly in the process there# 21 does he npt# sir? Qa* 22 A Oh# X*m sorry* 'Yes#,he repeats that; / r y, .. ^ . 23 Q And what dobs he say about by-product there? 24 A -i He says As1 chemists ,use the w^rd 9by-produot9# BAYO N NE. N .J . 0 7 0 0 1 FORM IL 2 4 B I 2 3 4 5 6 '7 8 9 10 iY 12 : 13 . 14 15* 16 17' 18 19 20 "21 .22 23 24 dibenzodioxins can be manufactured as by-products during chlorophenol manufacture. Dibenzofurans cannot so be made* ~ ' -j ' ` ` ; -a-*.^* M; V * ' * ' V - - i n ' ^, ' - '* . Q what, does he say .about 'ISa where OSHA has asked you whether or not 1 1 * 3 true that you*ve analyzed samples of ;orthochlorophenol for rthe presence of dioxin prior to February 7r 1079? *l>.- '* He says, "Tw samples produced in 1978 were analys ed 1 tod found to contain ho dioxins.* .. *. s % * "w v > t' " ` Q And he suggests the answer to that question should be yes? ... i t . TJT - J < 1 , , ^ j- _ ' F ,P ^ 'j 1' r* ^` ' . >1 - >l' ^ * A., .Yes. ,,/vK'; '' '#* f J 4/` t * J * , r 4. T . rfc ' > t . ' ` . ' , Q < But nonetheless* you. answered it no# knowing that in fact what Dr. Wilson pointed out to you that you had analyzed itj.isn^t that correct# sir?* * A The response went indenying that. I cannot recollect exactly why* ; Perhaps Dr. Wilson was incorrect and We , * L I_ 4 J' `" - .r P * i \r i .F had not. Perhaps it was a: different .product. :X`don't know, Z\ a ^ 4 ." ,- > j f~w Perhaps there was a mistake made. .X don't remember -.Q:, . Mr. Park,as l advised you already# we have exhibits inevidencethatBhows that you requested in 1978 to 1E .V ` <* V,, analyze for dioxins,;and{`you -did . They re in evidence. t * ; / C l'j J>'V* >*>' .* r ,V` That *s exactly what Dr* Wilson is telling;you. But nevertheless -- A fes. \ Q r- having those facta you denied the truth of the 118 ' 1 ,, > *. *:>>* j *.7'i . -- ,f L -l4 ^' ` v M v r , J V > ^ ^ , J * t \ t ' , statement, didn't you/ sir?.. A Dr. Wilson was'one of a number of people Who participated; in this,. ' ' Excuse me';.. Mrc Parki thafc isn't what I'm asking# A I u n d e r s t a n d / r- , . Q Nevertheless,, having knowledge o f >those facts people can't-overruled facts*- : A'. These are statements coming, from Dr* Wilson. Q Those facts he told you were facts and they *, r * * ` +- r " - -, - * * J ' ,r j t > ,>, i * f > * r ~ r^ V, * -, J were indeed facts but yet you denied the truth of them, didn't you, sir?, / - , . t. r : - MR. MUSGRV; Objection, it's contrary to-the evidence, your Honor, as to what the facts were* ;it's. 1978 OCP crude was'analyzed not the, CP* : ^ THE COURT ,Objection, is overruled* . ' 'Q i (By Mr* Carr) Would you answer the1question* l A' '^Al'd have to say .no, Mr/ Carr. `'Z'1/ 0 . ' A l l .right * On the -- .I ,think .we were to -- you denied that.the chemical"in'number 33, you denied that the chemical spill -- you .denied the truth of the fact that the ' < ' - 1 J * V* JVO / ?*; ,, ;`f.,"7 ' J- * ' - *i ; " 4, * v ,--* i v " .r newspaper.article attached *there;was ,fully;identifying it* you " * \r .V ,'S f*:* * v - ,T`* (1 i denied all/those matters/,from 33 down through ;,41 all together didn't you? / L ll'ii // '/V; v- i:^r - A jYes* -This.was, a procedural thing Mr* Carr* It - ' : . * - ,, ' / -, :;`-. V - - =? ** 4 ! it "a. ~ - - .w -r 119 1 was felt that was not relevant to the OSHA proceeding We 2 objected to it; and since it was felt that we either had to 3 admit or deny it# we denied it 4 Q Well, at least here you give the reason for the 5 denial# don't you, sir? 6 A Yes. 7 Q You're letting them know that you are denying it 8 on technical grounds, wherein in these other instances of 9 denial, you didn't let them know that you were denying on 10 technical grounds, did you, sir? . 11 A I guess we felt it would he understood.-- 12 Q Excuse me. Wiuld youanswer that question.. 13 A We just denied it. 14 Q And you didn't let them know that you were denyir 15 on technical interpretation of these various .'words, did you, i 16 sir? 17 MRo MUSGRAVEi Well, I object to that, That's 18 contrary to what the answer says* The objection says that the 19 basis for it is immaterial and irrelevant, not some technical 20 basis, Mr* Carr* That's; a mispresentation of'what the 21 document says. - it > 22 Q (By Mr.,Carr) Could you answer ray question, 23 please 24 THE COURT The objection is overruled. I THE WITNESS: We didn't state we were ~ we just 2 denied them, Mr. Carr* 3 Q (By Me* Cart) And you didn't give any reason 4 for denying, did you? 5 A No, that's correct. 6 Q As you did give a reason for denying 33 through 7 41, didn't you? 8 A yes , 9 Q Now, directing your attention to number 42a and 10 b, you deny 42 a and b, don't you, sir? 42 says, "Prior to 11 OSHA's February 7, 1979 inspection, Respondent's employees in 12 the areas of its w,G, Krumrorich Plant where chlorinated phenols 13 were manufactured, handled, or stored were not advised of the 14 hazards of dioxin contamination*" You denied that, didn't you, 15 sir? 16 A res, 17 Q By denying that, you mean to say that they were 18 advised of the hazards of dioxin contamination, don't you, sir? 19 A Yes, - ,! . 20 Q Now, did you ever see a. document or a memorandum 21 of any sort dated before February the 7th, 1979 which any 22 employee was advised at any time that they were handling 23 dioxin, other than the laboratory employees, and of the hazards 24 associated with dioxin handling, other than the laboratory I employees? 2 A M e * Carry X cannot recall with great specificity, 3 but X believe that some employees in the pentachlorophenol 4 operation would have been advised concering chloracne* This 5 would have been in writing and I think that there were verbal* 6 Q You think that? 7 A yes, 8 Q But my question did youever see any memo, any 9 writing#*any document* 10 A X think there was some writing on the chloracne* 11 Q In the pentachlorophenoldepartment? 12 A Yes* 13 Q That writing was dated December of *79, The only 14 hazard they were told that was possible was chloracne* There 15 was some reversible liver changes is what they said* That's 16 the only document that Dr Roush could find, according to his 17 testimony, in which employees were told of the hazards, or ' i p .f 11 18 possible hazards of dioxin contamination. Do you have any . i- 1 . 19 knowledge of anything else, other than that? t 20 A Not specifically* X just r-- x think' -- 21 Q Well, you think* ' *f * \' l L ! i ,, i ', i \ r * -V ** 22 A Yeah, uh-huh* 23 Q Now question number 46, would you look at that, 24 please 1 A Yes 2 Q In number 46 they ask you to admit that, quote, 3 During the manufacturing process of certain chlorinated phenols 4 produced at Respondent's W.G Krununrich Plant the following 5 contaminants are potentially present (a) dioxin, (b) TCDD, 6 and (c) 2,3,7,8 TCDD, do they not, sir? 7 A Yes* 8 Q And you deny the truth o that, don't you? 9 A Yea 10 Q How you d$, know that dioxins were present in 11 those -- found in the manufacturing process of these chlorinate 12 phenols, don't you, sir? 13 A Hot personally X assume thatthere are documents 14 here that might so indicate 15 Q Well, look at this dated 6/6/79* it talks about 16 dioxin concentration, doesn't it, sir? And in parts per 17 million, doesn't it, sir? ;And look at document 1135, there's 18 all kinds of dioxins present under all these columns here, 19 dealing with dioxins, all eight dioxins are dealt, with There' 20 thousands and thousands of dioxins -* thousand parts per billlc 21 . '> ** ' *j of dioxins in your product, according to 1135, aren't there, 22 sir? 23 MR. MUSGRAVE: You want to show me which one says 24 that as far as a product, Mr. Carr, as a part of the process - 1 Q (By Mr Carr) Would you answer the question, sir? 2 MR MUSGR&VEi Object to Counsel1a representation 3 of documents incorrectly, request that it be stricken from 4 the record as improper characterization of the evidence* 5 THE COURTS Objection Is overruled* You may 6 proceed, Mr* Carr* 7 Q (By, Mr. Carr) You know this document, 1135, 8 refers not just to processing, but to products, not as Mr* 9 Musgrave thinks* 10 A I don't know that, Mr o' Carr* 11 .MRo MUSGRAVEj That's not what I said* X aid 12 X want the one that's got thousands,of parts in a product, not 13 in a process stream* 14 THE c o u rts Mr* Carr, go ahead with your question 15 please* 16 Q (By Mr. Carr) : You do know that dioxins are 17 produced and have been found in your products, don't you, sir? 18 A Which diuxinr.Mr * Carr? ~ 19 Q X don't care about dioxin* (a) is dioxin. It's 20 talking about all dioxins* ', :.: /, ; ` ' 21 A Okay* 22 Q Any dioxin. You denied that, and yet you had 23 all the evidence, all the findings these products contained 24 dioxins* You don't have any question about that in your mind, 1 do you, sir? 2 A This item number 46 -- * 3 Q 46(a). 4 A It's not totally correct, Mr. Carr. 5 Q Where is ife incorrect? 6 A it's vague in some areas. 7 Q where is it incorrect, sir? 8 A All right. Certain chlorinated phenols. 9 Q Yes. Now certain chlorinated phenols were 10 included parachlorophenol, Santophen, 2,4-DichXorophenol, 11 orthochlorophenli isn't that correct, sir? 12 A NO. 13 Q .That wasn't? 14 A No. 15 Q Those are not-- - N* 1 * f 'f 16 1/ 1 * * A We arelimited to this document. We're trying 17 to respond to it. The customary ..thing is then the complainant 18 would come back with another document 19 Q Mr* Park please don't get off on that again. 20 They're asking you for things outside the document. They're 21 wanting to know -- they're wanting you to tell them that it's 22 true. 23 A We can admit or deny. 24 Q Excuse me* You deny, and you're guilty of deceit 1 if you deny something that you know to be the truth. . Sure# 2 'you're capable of denying everything# as you did. But.it's 3 deceitful to do that. OSHA -- 4 A No# sir# not when it's incorrect. 5 MR. CARRi It's a speech# your Honor. Request 6 that it be stricken. It's not a question. It's an Insinuation 7 and an attack on the witness. I ask that it be stricken and 8 the jury be instructed to disregard it. 9 THE COURT Xt's overruled* it was a proper 10 question. 11 Q (By Mr. Carr) Mr. Park# X agree with you# if it 12 is incorrect# you should deny it. But now I'm asking you# sir# 13 where is it incorrect that certain of your chlorinated 14 phenols contain dioxin Bas a contaminant? 15 A Okay. The vague. the places, where the statement 16 is unclear 17 Q No# let's saywhere it's incorrect. 18 A I said it's not a totally .correct statement, 19 g Okay. Where isn't it totally correct that certain 20 chlorinated phenols produced at the Krummrich Plant had dioxins 21 A We had no way of knowing what the writer meant 22 when he said certain chlorinated phenols. .For example -- 23 Q You don't know what the word "chlorinated phenol11 24 means? 1 A We didn' t jcnow what, he meant when he wrote that. 2 If he had put down a specific process, or a specific product 3 perhaps, that might have been different. But he didn't. He 4 said certain chlorinated.phenpls* 5 Q Certain chlorinated phenols included all, doesn't 6 it/ sir? 7 HO# f-0 .8 Q 1 So if you;have chlorinated phenols that have 9 dioxins, that's what he*a talking, about, isn't he,sir? I(T A I don't ,think so# 11 . Q ; What.do y*ou*think. he's ts a- lking abou- t if he' 's *not^ ,,, _j , p / , " is -, ( ,, -* 12 talking about chlorinated'phenols? . 13 A I guess the group with the advice of counsel 'j .. - -fi`"\, * 'iV.* i`?- ",! :v,-'. \ *-- L i1vV*,J, 14 concluded that this wasambiguous^nd, therefore, should be ^ 1 ,V*' ' M---X , 1 -. ^ -V - - ^ t - "" IS denied at this time# _ The?-same is true -- . ' \ ^yU `ft. ;-S 'r-i' / V, ' - 16 Q How can.itJbe/ambiguous? Look at number 32# You 17 admit that you're.aware of spills of chlorinated phenols ' '1.`,, ,JV` ii''\f i ^ i;s |s,,*i' * V 18 manufactured there; . You, admit number 32, "and they used the _ 19 word"chlorinated phenols*" 20 A Well, the word ''certain chlorinated phenols" 21 raises the question# . T ,* % * - -r , 22 Q So the word "certain#" so-now it's not "Chlorinatl .23 phenols,*1 it's the wdrdv"certain*" 24 A Chlorinated phenols*,, 0 `"'c * ^ D1 Q Weren't certain chlorinated phenols, didn't they 2 contain dioxins? 3 A Then the terms -- '* 4 Q Excuse me Didn't certain chlorinated phenols } 5 contain' dioxins?' 1Ti< % v-* ,1 6 A For purposes of this* we denied that* 7 Excuse"* ' 'know y ^ denied1 it1* Yoiire"telling / 8 me iihat you did* I'm asking you didn't certain chlorinated* *T 9 k i dont know that* >!'i* o 10 Q You"don't know that* Aren'those ehlorinaTed fi 11 phenols'that are' ehCwn liero in Exhibit 1249^? ^ u ,, t fh 12 h J ^i3 thdtf whati penta chlorinated phenol? it** < hW J 13 Q pcs^' 24^pechlorophonol*' ardh1 1 they chlorinated i 14 phenols?' F2 15 k l.-F 16 Q i 17 exhibit? res# ' ' ` t -iV': *,`2CL'? uid don*t they contain dioxins according to -this > ., , ., y.hJ i r:U^ PENGAD CO.. D A V O H N E jN li. 18 T 'C A Yes, they appear to* 19 t h e c o u r t s ' J "didn't hear that answer* r. ' -;> 20 THE WITNESS# Yes, they appear to* o ' *' C* -*. ^ - \ T .j - *- Vi"' ^ ^ V ' -' 1 21 THE C00HT5 Could you please try to keep your 22 voice up* >. v. i :-j ~i-.~? -v-v. -;* ~,v, ouxV'r V'-V''-' v ;' / if.; 23 THE WITNESS; Yds* " v`Cl f'ji;'. , (" "! f]' i`* ? L <j V - ' ,, 24 THE COURT Thank'you*' :s J V \ . I- '?'. 123 1 the sole and only function that they have? isnBt that right, 2 sir? " " < 3 A ' No, MTq Carr* 4 Q Whatother function do they have other than protecting the health and safety of the workers? 5 6 A That wasn't the question you asked, Mr* Carr Q That was exactly the question X asked 7 8 A No, it wasn't. 9 Q In what they were doing here# they were executing 10 the mandate given them by Congress# signed by the President, II it's their job to go out into the plant and discover areas 12 where the health and safety of the workers might he jeapordize< 13 isn't that correct, Mr* Park? 14 A OSHA inspectors do that -- 15 Q Isn't that their job, sir? ;'J ? : J. .'; ' \ ' * - - i 16 A You're switching*- I'm trying to follow you -- . 17 from attorneys with the Department of Labor, now to OSHA 18 inspectors 19 G They're different The entire OSHA personnel, 20 from, lawyers to investigators, to scientists They have one 21 job and one job only, that is to protect the health and safety 22 of the workers; isn't that correct, sir? 23 MR. MUSGRAVE: He's now arguing with the witness. 24 The witness already answered the question. He's now arguing 1 Q (By Mr. Carr) ou denied it here# didn't you# sir 2 A For purposes of this document# yes. 3 Q Knowing it to be the truth? 4 A ' NO. 5 Q where, is it untrue# sir? . What part of it is 6 untrue? 7 A The statement was vague. 8 Q What part of it is untrue# sir? 9 A I'm telling you that the statement in our opinion IO was not sufficiently# totally correct# as to warrant -- 11 Q What part of it is incorrect? 12 A -- an acceptance1. ' / *, ' ' i - 13 Q What part of it is incorrect?'" 14 A Certain chlorinated phenols is vague* 15 Q We .went through that already, sir. It's not 16 vague. ' : r ,., ` 17 A We concluded that it was. 18 Q Sir? 19 A - We concluded .that it was at the time. 20 Q No. what you said was we're going *to deny that . 21 and we'll do that by saying that chlorinated phenol is vague. 22 But you use the words chlorinated phenols throughout your 23 documents all th time,- don't you# sir? . 24 A NO. j Q Look at this document tight here# chlorinated phenol* That's chlorinated phenols "Chlorophenol, chlorinated {phenol* They're synonymous, aren't they,, sir? There's no k Vagueness about that* You use that word* They use that word* L hat else are they going to ^ HR* m u s g r a v e * Object to the question* It's got multiple parts* Request that it be stricken* THE COURT9 Objection is overruled* Q , {By Mr* Catr) What about the next one# TCDD, there's no question that you knew that there were TCDD's present in your chlorinated, phenols , -in certain ,of; them* : A wot all of them. Q No, it doesn't say all of them, does it, sir? It says certain of them*. There's no question it is*' You knew \ V T .r 1 ^ * 1 - * 1,, v > _ \\ L that* A If we -- Q Ekcuse me#, Mr* Park, would you answer that question. A X have to answer no, then, Mr* Carr* Q . You didn't know it? A . Mot the way you phrased the question* Q The person that works for Monsanto, that prepared' these documents, 1135, do you reckin that he knew it? A I have no idea what ha knew, Mr* Carr* 130 Q ; Well# you'do- have an idea because'you1ve seen 1 the document. You've/'seen 1135 and it shows chlorinated phenols 2 a n d i t e h o w a t h e t e t r a s , and it shows the dioxins so he knew '3 it didA't he sir? . f , 4 .i1 1 ' A ' * u I can.see the.document *' ' 5 6 - 7.' ` Q -And he knew, it didn't he# sir? .//v a ' /I guess; the person that prepared the; document knev ? | what he put on the document*-" 7 . ,/ , . ' r; : . 8 7i- ' ` . .` -.. * '<" 1 Q -And-he knev; that there was dioxin and TCDD's in the 9 /\ jchlorinated, phenols# didn1 1 :he; .sir?! ' t **-'5;$//' io ; / -n U '' r L i -V i ;f *,- ; ;i :'V" " in *1 ! N.^-*ii *"r'"J* 'fi-{ t^ i J . A- - Maybe not for, this purpose#'te. "Carr. " \ ( 12 13'/ ,1 f* - 1M<V \ " hL J r 1 V'" i /' * ^ rt ^r " ? Q :.r How can you ^have.; truthv-for. one, purpose, and ;a lie , V` ' V' 'J f 1 1 *f .. , * ,, .. -.v -f j % ^ -s.y ' * - t , * , -* _i . '< j % .fbr another# Mr. Park? Couid you explain that to me? v , 1 ' _ l j >- y. ^ ' ,fi* " .` '. * ' f' I jT" MRMUSGRAVEi; Object' to ;the question# improper - " / ' ,L question. \ -15: '/ ' * ) ' q \ 16^ l\ .`J Mr.. Carr) The truth is the truth is the FORM IL 24 B BAYONNE, N.J.* 0 7 0 0 2 1,7, 18 : truth*" ..^ . ' . , 1 1 h t h e COURT; The objection is overruled* - ' . THE WITNESS; I 've been trying to.explain why . 19 you're limited, to this document; MrV-Carr* 20 / Q ; ,(Ey Mr* Garr) 'I've been listening to your ; 21 J> 1 ' ' ' ^' r >V * t explanation# Mri Park; so far .1 haven't seen any reason nor . '22 do you, I submit to> you# why you /would deny the truth of the 23 statement that dioxins and.TCDD's and 2#3#7#8 TCDD are' 24 131 1 potentially present in your chlorinated phenols? .2 A Because all TCDD's were not present, and that term 3 was defined, it certainly could he taken to be defined earlier 4 to include all of the isomers.in TCpB* 5 Q How on earth could you get that? 6 A This is too, vague to accept 7} Q Too vague? 8 A Yesa 9 Q These are words that you yourself used in document 10 [everyday, and we discussed those the last -- i .' '` 11 A Not in that context, we don't, Mr* Carr* 12 Q we discussed those th last time you were here 13 All your chemists use these terms, your executives use these 14 terms, scientists write scientific articles using these terms* IS W e 've got lots of them in evidence* Every witness that's come 16 on the stand here has used, these.termso Now, Mr* Park, how can ::v- i-- 4 1 ii ^ */ t-i-- Hr . " *- ar '- 17 you as an attorney sit down there and say that,terms that 1 '. * * ' ' J s L J1 18 scientists use, that the doctors use, and .the chemists use to ' j" > ** 1 ^ 19 describe certain things are vague? "Where do you in the law 20 get that right to say these words that the scientists use 21 are vague? Can you tell me that, sir? 22 A Yes, because they're used by someone else here* 23 Q They're Used by someone else? 24 A Hes* Not by your scientists* 1 Q And you don't consider that the person that 2 prepared this was ashing questions of the people that he 3 thought were scientists# he thought he was addressing questions 4 to scientists# didn't he# sir? 5 A Mr Carr# the person that ashed me these question;* 6 were several very capable attorneys with OSB& They would 7 take ever omission that we made.here and use it against us 8 Q Indeed they would 9 A So we had to be careful# and be accurate in the 10 'way we responded. 11 Q Exactly fight# and that is the point#,sir* What 12 you had to do# Mr* Park# because 0SH& has the responsibility 13 for the safety and health of your workers#doesn'fc it# sir? 14 That's the.only responsibility# isn't that right# sir? / 15 A X would say that Monsanto is primarily responsible 16 Q I'm talking about: OSHAV it has its. sole function i ` F1 e ^ ' ' 1' ^ ,' ,* 17 it's sole obligation is\to protect the health and safety of the 18 workers that work throughout the United, States.:.;,' 19 a That's correct* 20 ' Q Kot just at Monsanto?' isn't that* correct? 21 h That's correct* I 22 Q1. They're hot in it to make money# they're not in it 23 to make glory, or to make aprofit or to make a product. They 24 have one function# and one. function only# that's to protect the 1 workers; isn't that correct, sir? 2 A The Occupational Safety and Health Administration^ 3 yes, sir, 4 Q And when they submitted these questions to you, 5 these requests to admit, they were attempting to perform their i 6 sole function, that is to protect the health and safety of 7 your workers, weren't they, sir? 8 A well, these were Department of Labor attorneys, 9 to be specific,. Mr. Carr* 10 Q And they were working for OSHA it was their jobf 11 their soie job in this instance to protect the health and 12 safety of your workers; isnft that correct, sir? 13 A They were representing OSHA with respect to 14 some citations which had been issued 15 Q For the p?u>rpos* 1e of pr'ot>ectingr' the t th*e'alth and 16 safety of your workers! isn't that correct, sir? - 17 A Yes' / ,v / , * / v' * * *' _ L 18 Q And in that regard, in that respect, they asked 19 certain questions of you.so that they can present the evidence 20 to a hearing board and determine whether or not you are 21 properly protecting the health and safety of your workers; 22 is that correct, sir? 23 A Kfot totally, Mr Carr 24 Q That is their function That was the function anc! I with the witness 2 THE CPURT: Objection is overruled. 3 THE WITNESS: The function of the agency is to 4 protect the health of workers. 5 Q 1 (By Mr. Carr) And the way that agency functions 6 is through its employees* through its lawyers * through its 7 scientists* through its investigators* through its inspectors> 8 isn't that correct* sir?. Through th secretaries* through 9 their scientists. 10 A Yes. 11 0 Through their nurses. 12 A To be accurate* OSHA, I believe* does not -- - it 13 uses Department of Labor attorneys. 14 Q And those attorneys* when they're representing 15 OSHA are performing the Congressional, mandate of protecting th ^* - 16 health and safety of workers* aren't they* sir? , 1, t *- . ` ; 17 A They're supporting OSHA. 18 THE COURT: '*1 didn't hear your answer. I'm sor; 19 ^ THE WITNESS: They are supporting OSHA on its 20 function. The lawyers are supporting OSHA in its function. 21 Q (By Mr. Carr) Mr. Park* there are thousands and / 22 thousands of employers in this country* aren't there* sir?. 23 A Yes. 24 Q And OSHA is a finite* that is a limited -- there 1 are limits to their manpower, limits to their lawyers, aren't 2 there, sir? 3 A High limits, yes 4 Q And you I n .the manufacturing end, you are aware 5 of the fact that if *you make it difficult enough for OSHA and 6 its1 attorneys to prove.their case, if you will deny elementary 7 things that they will have to go in and do a lot of things, 8 subpoena records, do as we did, dig out these things from these 9 records, if you don't admit those things, you know that you 10 can make it so difficult that they will withdraw their complain 11 and spend their manpower more efficiently on other things, 12 you know that, don't you, Mr. Park? 13 MR. MUSGRAVEs Objection.;; That* calls for specula- i ^ -i ' '< j , ]t ^ i" ' t- '^ 14 tion, conjecture, improper guesfcio* IS THE COURTa Objection is overruled. 16 THE WITNESS3 No, I don't, Mr. Carr. 17 Q (By Mr. Carr) you don*t know that, Mr* Park? 18 you don't know that if-you -- if you admitted the truth of 19 those things, the things that you know to be true, then they 20 don't have to prove it, do they, sir? If you admit the truth 21 of it. 22 A What things,;Mr. Carr? 23 Q The things that they requested that you admit to 24 be true i A It's not clear what they requested I 2 Q Would you direct the witness to answer my question THE c o u r t ? Mr Park, you have to answer the 3 4 question. THE WITNESS? X have to answer no then to the way 5 6 you phrased it, Mr* Carr*. Q (By Mr. Carr) They have to prove it, if you don*t 7 8 admit the truth of it, sir. The whole idea, isn't it, Mr. Park, of a Request to Admit a fact is so it need not be proven? 9 10 A Mr. Carr, QSHA's lawyers normally rely on their 11 inspectors* 12 Q Xsnft that the whole idea, sir?^ .' " * .t i. V 13 A Yes. That's contrary to general experience* 14 Q Excuse me*; What is the purpose of. a Request to j* 15 Admit a fact, sir? 16 A Xt1s to avoid; being, required to prove it in a 17 court. 18 Q Isn't that exactly what X asked you, sir? 19 A No, I think you phrased it different, Mr* Carr. 20 Q It's to avoid to prove it. They don't have to 21 prove it if you admit it! isn't that right, sir? 22 A That's right. 23 Q But if you deny it, they then have to prove it, 24 don't they, sir? 1 A That's correct 2 Q And to prove it* they have to go into your plant* 3 they have to get records* they have to subpoena your records* 4 they have to analyze your records* they have to spend the 5 months as we have spent here* they have to cross examine 6 witnesses at length* witnesses like yourself* witnesses like 7 Dr Wilson* witnesses like Dr* Roush* who deny these things* 8 who take that position* that's what they have to do, if you 9 deny those things* they have to prove,them* then* don't they* 10 sir? 11 A Not at all* Mr. Carr A ''i : 1 `.`' ., 12 Q They don't have to prove them? :: 13 A No* Mr* Carr* no This was highly unusual -- 14 Q Then how do they get a'decision.against you* i 15 they don't prove them? 16 A This isn't 4most of what's covered in these 17 requests for admissions is not even part of the OSHA regulable 18 All they have to do is - 19 Q My question* Mr* Park -- . 20 A -- is to go in and prove that there was some 21 violation of a standard* 22 Q My question* Mr* Park* if you don't admit it* 23 they have to prove it`* don't they* sir? 24 A yes j 1 Q And to prove it they' then have to subpoena the 2 records, don't they, sir? 3 A Ho. 4 Q How do they prove it:without subpoenaing the 5 records? 6 A . Prove violation? They show, say, a concentration 7 level of some chemical is above OSUA limitation in the work 8 place. That's how they do it* No subpoenaing of records at . 9 all. 10 <Q In order to fine Monsanto, how do'they prove 11 that Monsanto knew these things;and make a wilful>violation? 12 It's a wilful violation that theyre trying to prove on you, 13 isn't it, Mr* Park? i ,r ~ -^ d 14 A ' Which violation' are you- \r' ^ .v . ... : 15 Q Mr'. Park, you were cited not for an accidental 16 violation of the OSHA regulations, but for the deliberate wil 1 7 ful violation. 18 MR. MUSGRAVE: .Object, your Honor, the reference 19 to allegations. That*s totally improper. Request that it be 20 stricken, and the jury instructed t disregard it, and Counsel 21 admonished and instructed to refrain from referring to unprovei 22 unsubstantiated allegations that were withdrawn. 23 THE COURTtf Objectxon is overruled. It is a 24 proper question.' It is a proper area of inquiry. 1 THE WITNESS3 I don't think that's correct,Mr. 2 Carr. Q (By Mr. Carr) You don't think that it's correct 3 that you were charged with a wilful violation? 4 A I'm trying to .remember the way -- I think there 5 6 are serious and non-serious is the way that they read. I 7 don't remember. S Q You don't recall -- 9 A X don't recall. 10 Q You don't.recall that "they were called wilful 11 violationsr sir? ' J ' ' '' * 12 A If you have it there1--- ir f * i j 13 MR. MUSGR&VE? May my objection be continuing to 14 this entire line of questioning? ' ., 15 16 tion. THE COURTi Sure. So noted as a continuing objeo 17 Q (By Mr. Carr) sir? 18 A I'm sorry. X cannot recall the way they were 19 phrased. In any event, we felt they were improper. 20 Q That isn't what I'm asking you, sir. They charge' 21 you with wilful violation, did they not, sir? 22 A I said, Mr. Carr, I cannot remember how they were 23 phrased. 24 Q Well, look how you characterize it, and by you, I 1 mean Monsanto, characteriaed it on page four of your summary 2 of the citations/ the citation is in evidence, but I don't 3 have ihd number in front of me right now `Do they not categor*' 4 izQ it as ifiXful and serious, sir? 5 A This is what is said, 6 Q And to prove, something is wilful, you know as an 7 attorney, Mr* Park, that you have to prove that you had know- 8 ledge, donft you, sir? . 9 A I would suppose' so,; ' '} r, ( ' 10 ft And by denying *that you had `"knowledge of these 11 things, that is that dioxin comes along with making# or poten 12 tially comes along with your chlorinated phenols, just as it 13 has been denied in this case# you .seek to avoid being found' 14 - guilty on the wilful charge# don't you? 15 A We're not. seeking to avoid a just charge# Mr* 16 Carr* we*re trying to avoid an improper one* 17 Q Qy denying the truth of things that you know to 18 be a fact you're setting yourself upaas the judge of whether 19 or not it's a just charge when there are other persons that * 20 given that obligation# aren't you# air? 21 A wo 22 G Well, in any event# you know to prove wilful 23 they've got iw go into,your records and prove what you knew 24 at a point in time* isn't that correct# sir? Tl A "-But ` Q Isnft that,correct/ Mr* Park? ' 2 . ./ ; .v * ;; -v 3 n o * _,J p; ; ; " \ v .. 4' Q . Mr* pack.*, Justus in this case/ we are suing ,; , , ;j\ . ;i.--v, r i: /, 5 Monsanto for punitive damages/ the, whole 6 4 months have 6 been, spent; nowp u t t i n g i n evidence on punitive damages trying 7, to prove that:you had kiiowledge that dioxin was theref and tha 8 you did nothing about itV ;.Youdid npt Jtell your customers* '' ' : V' < , j .C i 'V " *.* )' i;' . ' Si i: i . 11 *- ' 9 You diclni#t tell the people: at Sturgeon. You didn't tell yout 10 - workers* Just as OSHA charged , a * j * a*f * V^ ;"* -wl - ' - ,,Jt U MB. MUSGRAVE? Object-tb the speech and request 12 J 13 that it. be stricken/ your*Honor;; (has"nothing to do with this questioning* Request.that the jury be instructed to , 14 ' disregard It#'',.'"' \-v. 15 - ; TH3 COURTi The objection is overruled. It*s a BAYONNE,, N,J, ' 0 7 0 0 2 ^ FORM (L 24 B 16 V,--; ,^;v; 17 : ' Q (By Mr*-date)'.' Mr.,.?ark# to finish my question/ 1 P % " *v . - 1T * ri ri. 1 _ i 18 .you are aware of the""acttha t there, were wilful charges /: -, r -,J^ * ' -- , f , -i . f y- .. ' ,. - ,, 19 . where .knowledge has tb be proven in the OSHA citations just as 20 ; you are aware of the fact that there are wilful charges in thij* 21 case requiring that wW prove knowledge that you had; ish*t 22 "that correct/ s i r ? ::/\ v/;- v . ; .. . ^ 23' ' A - Ifm really hot.familiar with the proceedings in 24 this cas/"iir...i.Carr*;/' 143 Q You* re not aware o f !the fact that we are suing for punitive damages? A I think I'm aware of that* . Q And a wilful charge is brought for the -- and under OSHA is bruughtfor the purpose of punishing you; isn't that correct? Isn't that what they're trying to do, punish you for your violations, for your wilful violations of the law? A Any charge under OSHA is punishment for violation* Q There's different punishments for deliberate, intentional violations, wilful violations, and;for accidental' violations, where wilful isn't a part,of, it; isn't that correct, .] ~ 'i_' . , ; <. 1 sir? A The term wilful is just not used that much, Mr* Carr* It's serious and non-serious. Q Excuse me* Could you answer my question, sir* A I'm not sure, Mr* Carr* Q Well, you've used the word, your documents use the word "wilful1*, didn't they, 1 sir? A Mr. Aley used it* Q Yes* And you got no punishment in thatinstance^ did you, sir? A No, we did not* There was no violation* Q Because they withdrew ' the case, didn't they, sir? 144 11 / -2 ' 3 4 5. 6 7' 8 -9 10 11 r 12 13 ./ h Yest they did* .V-// - Q : They didn't subpoenayour recor S s a s we did in ` -r r. ' this case, did they, sir? v> ; ^ * < :J 1 .. -A 'r 'No. " '/-. l Q > They didn^t take^depositions of important executives and chemists and scientists and Dr* Wilson to prove the presence V ;. v< f v > r-ti.j;ft . * /.: -1v//- Of dioxin, did they, sir? v1-'.:* riv*. No. j 1 '' .j Jii>v ; . ' /: v i'^ > 1\ L. ,t. ; ; . ii- 'f , Q . Mr. Park r you ['even:denied iriJjhis/request `ques tioii number 54# didn't you, >ir>. where.they askec you whether or not *-i ' 1 r ! ,/ an industrial accident involving chlorinate d phenols occurred at Respondent's plant in Hitro. West Virginia* You even denied that, didn't you, sir? . , 14 a ' Yes*' : PEN C IO CO.. BAYONNE. ,N .J. 0 7 0 0 1 fORM IL 24 B is r V-. 16 ' 17 Q Sir? I, didn' t hearyour.answe^*^ A ; Yes. .The answer is yes* .'Q And you know that it did involve that there ` 18 - . 19 ' ,,wars an 'ind/u'strial accrid'ent inv1olv*ivng`; chlosrinated phenols, didn't you, sir? - 20 ... A ;I recall'there was an/Industrial accident, X 21 would have to question the term "chlorinated phenols", I'm `! ' . * _ I .'r r 22 trying to recollect why this wohid have been denied* It must * 23- have been*~~; ./ , // 'i' / ./ 24 Q ' Well, look-at Exhibit 1543, look at the R,S, that 145 J j ` **> ; ( . , .. l - '2 ir 3 4 I 5 6 I 7 ,8 9. 10 11 ' 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Dii Wilson puts on there with regard to question 54, that it involved 2,4,5-Trichioraph'enol propessed^as stated* We've ', r 4>. * i * r ` '* J ,. *i . ^ * J` ' ' i A '* ' - had studies done,by. Dr; Suskind in'which he describes ft as a Trichlorophenal accident. : r : ' A Wilson says>/ 111 think that accident "* Q We know, because' we.'.ve seen -the 'documents. . : " - ' M i -'y? hx^-UU ' ` ^ ^ a}' i,v*.**: '' > A . 'Okay. ; *i* M ; ; ' ; '" V //. '' '. _ _ . `- v-M-v iV o. ; jQ ' It was.a\Trichlprophenol;process,:and the process - \a i t '- v : ^ I ' '', `A' ' - J _ . , i' Y ' V- ..V, *L 1 ><*,` - , it 1 . t ' Ji . *' ( - ' ' for making TrichlorOphenol, they're1 going togopon1 and mak e 1'; -it on the 2,4,5-T, another^product. 1 Wilson: 1tells you that, ] * v/ j, ,^ j v 1 ,- and you/4knew that, and yet,you. denied it; isn't'that correct, sir?.. _. .. ; . : ' ^ ik j t ,* 1 m fw JA I would have to -- ^the way you phrase it, I would have to answer no, Mr." Carr. Q You didri*t .deny it,, or'you didn't know it? . J A M l didn't know it, sir'.\ 1 '' ; Q " V Sir? ,` ' ^ \ \. t. -r A '^ rI 'v;ould have-to. eay :that1 to the-best of my, , " * recollection, l a m not in the position to say that ! did know. ;that, no. There were'others involved, here '-- ' : .. Q I'm not talking "about, whether you knew it. ..I'm 1 asking;ab^ut Monsanto vknew' that "they-were making 2,4/5-Tricholorphenol in the accident 'of 1949. A. ^ Mr. Carr, vI'm assuming "that if Monsanto had knowh 146 BAYONNE, ft.J. 07002 1 that the correct response to 54 was different, we would have 1 :' '. 2 answered it differently Q Wilson told you it was different 3 A I have to assume it was answered correctly. 4 Q Wilson told you in 1548 that it was -- 5 6 . A There were others;`than; Wilson who provided infor mation that went into the response here. 7 "J 1V * 1 i\*^ - r 8 Q Well, what other Information'was there, sir? A I cannot remember, a t .this'time. v. 9 10 MR CARR s.. I have no further questions' of this 11 witness, your Honor* 12 TH COURT3 Mr. Musgrave. 13 MR. MUSGRAVE3 Thank you# your Honor. 14 15 16 BY MR. MUSGRAVE: 'CLARIFICATION EXAMINATION v ' ... " ' \ 17 Q Mr. Park, while we*re on this very question, with 18 regard to the Nitrb questions that were asked, in these 19 Requests fot Admissions, and the responses that were given -- 20 MR. CARR: One moment. Did I offer 1549? It 21 needs to1 be offered into evidence. 22 THE COURT3 1549? 23 MR. CARR: 1549 and 1548. 24 THE COURT* No. J549,,t 1548 has been admitted BA YO N N E. N .J. 07002 FORM IL 24 B 1 2 3 4 .7 8 J' 9 ;10 11 > 12 .13 14 - 15' 16 17 ^ 18.19 20, 21 . 22 23 24 over objection. t .V. ** -- V ' ' MR. GARR: " 1549 T*d like to offer* 1* , r - - p^ j ^ r 'r* L S- - MR. MUSGRAVE /The same;objection as to 1548. ( THE COURT.* incorporate them.y-1549 .is .... i" /;.// ;y u. f .*:"v /y admitted over objection*/ l;;> ';// \' - V / :\ ; 1 Q, . .(By Mr*. MusgraVe) .^xMr*- Rark,-as, I/was about r1 . r-T,- f ' 1". ` ` .-.. ' to 11 t 'i. fl - - , V jLr ^ y ''V ^ i 1 T* jl r w*- . t - ^ ^ , .ask .you , with' regard tb thi s'.questloh that Mr . "Carr was ;just Jf i, ij ^r k" j^ "* , ' -f- _*iV ' ^ t _7. ' ' questioning you.on, Ird alsp/like/tcyrefer ou'to admission t number -- *^11# Request for Admission number 50 up there* Do .you see that one? /"-`y '// '' ;'y ' A. / YeS. * */*' ... " - ^ /., Q v And ask you if 2,4,5-T is a chlorinated phenol, and that was d e n i e d . \ / ` / . '/ . yes. '* - `:** * .-''/; '* / "\4 r'i-'" . ,, .-,. Q. 1 And do you :know why that was denied? \/.y, A I,-assume because it* s not' fully correct*1' Q 2/4,5-T is^nOt 2r4,5-TCRr trichlorophenpl, 2,4 5- is 2,4 trichlorphenioxia acetic acid* Do you know whether ' what's commonly referred`to as.2,4,5r`T, the herbicide .A V .1 believe; that that, is .-correct. Q / So 2,4,5-T, that, is.' trichlprophenioxla acetic acid, is not a chlorinated phenol, .and that was denied' for that reason? y \ y y .v*- ; '' . A Yesv*1 y- 1 ` >48 1 QJ Now do you know"-- : '''J`/ '2 < MR, ARR/i:&re yoirleading the witness, there,/'* 3 Counsel? ..They didn*t ask about 2 ,4 ,5-Trichlorophenol, they / V; T/' \ -r `t fj <;// ' " 4 asked about chlorinated phenols.;which is 2,4 trichlorophenol. - 1 . .. _ / - -A,J?fc'-:.'v`'"-V- / ^ L 5' Aren't you aware Of.theIfact that the .accident did not involve ' V -- .. - , K;' */:7f-y. * -sf 7 * * :/ r : iJt ` . 6 2 ,4 ,5-?? ; ; tv;];; .,. '7' ": - ./ MR. MSGRVEi,-- I'^referring -to question 5 0 , J ** "i fSJ( * * V 1 1 k f 1 ^ b, 8 ,,,Mr.Carr, .which is 2',4>5-t-- : : 9 '/../ / MR. CARR} The denial of that would,be proper. 10 /' ' .MR. MUSGRAVE. That's fine, sir*' Thank you. :11. ' MR.;CARRi, But -5 4 , to deny that is-not proper*" 12; \ MR.^MOSGRAVE;^Mr*-Carr, T haven't..asked a J 13 question yet on that. Do you want, to wait? 14V MR. CARRs Well, sure> go ahead* 15 -,MR.jMUSGRVE: Well,Vthank you, sir*> BAYONNE. N .J . O O O I FORM IL 2 4 B 16 : '% . Q.V ` (By MrMusgrave) ,Now, with regardto 5 4 , 2 ,4-TOf 17 2 ,4 ,5-Trichlorophenol;is a.hlorophnol to your knowledge? 18 ./' A 2 ,4 ,5-T?./' ,;V; V ;" -- . 19 Q ^ 2 ,4 ,5-TCR. ; *'' 20 L / 21 " A- :Q . ,2 4 :/. As* - o,p5Fp-oTsre1id-c*-Sh:Ztl.*od'r..2o.*.^p--,*4h< e,.5nr-<o,-viT?.,../://., ,, j ', . ;/' - 22 ' A r . I would think 2 ,4 ,5-TCP would-be-- 23 - * Q %; A*, chlo'roph( e'hF ,olN?''- ', ` '1 , --- Y ' 7 1 Af J ^ *i j 24 :' \ f' A '-- t chlorpphenpl. .. , ;; ** -' v . :11 - ' n', * 1 .. fj ' 149 l . .... / ' ' ' \ ^ ,,\a-/ 1 , ;J- '' v"1 ' x ,' * r ' < -V Q ' And is 2,4,5-TCP involved in the making of 2,4*5-?! I phenoxia herbicide? 2 A I'm sorry, I;.just don't knew. ;-l 3 Q You don't know. Do you know whether any other 4 chlorinated phenols are involved in the making of 2,4,5-T? 5 \, A No. 6 Q This question ;54,*does it not stat, sir -- * 7 MR. CARR: Object to the leading forn* of the 8 question. 9 THE COURT:. Objection is sustained. 10 MR. MUSGRAVE: I'm simply asking him if it doesn'1 11 state something. 12 THE COURT: You111 have to rephrase it. 13 Q (By Mr. Musgrave) Let me ask you whether or not 14 question 54 reads as follows -- is that right? 15 MR. CARR: Sure. 16 Q (By Mr. Musgrave) "In 1949, an industrial accidei 17 involving chlorinated phenols occurred at Respondents Nitro, is; West Virginia plant*n 19 A ' Yes, it dwes* 20 Q Is the phenols plural there, sir? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Now with regard to these Requests for Admissions, 23 these were served upon youjby the attorneys representing the 24 1 Occupational Safety and Health -- or actually I guess repre- 2 senting the Secretary of.-Laborf is that correct- 3 A That's correct 4 Q -- of the UnitedStates? ' ; * '',, '*** '/ 1 _' i 5 A Yes 6 Q Who was representingessentially the OSHA* is t 7 correct? 8 A Yes 9 Q And each question they asked you stated something 10 about if any part of it was not true; you would not admit it, 11 A Yes 12 Q Is that correct? 13 A That's correct, 14 Q And why was that# sir? 15 A As our counsel whom we retained because of hia 16 extensive experience inOSHA matters advised us this is the 17 common practice in pleading of cases which go before the 18 Review Commission# that when Requests for Admissions are 19 submitted# if they are not totally correct, they're denied* 20 And then the obligation goes back to the other party to 21 rephrase them# resubmit them if he so elects# or whatever* 22 Q This is a proceeding where OSQA is attempting -- 23 MR* CARRi Object to the leading form of the 24 question* -V y 3 -4 THE COURTi,tdb;febtioh-.is sustained* r ` -j ' . - .<-* t .f| f,X\J'`> -r. :>i ' , -liV*.'1''{" V",.,'" i '"}V,1 ? . s J Q , (By Mr* /Musgrdvej -.Ts t:his a; proceeding "where OSHA - ; ' \ At - , -, -f is attempting to establish a 'violation of ah;OSHA regulation .-C'-iV'. .-* i- <I ',j i f ' ' 1,iV fI ` ' . ,Vi t 1 r J t , t ^ I V - ' - Vi t V f >1 and post a fine?. `A Yes* v; v *- \ rf S Q Is that what that was?/. '. v . A / \ ;Yes. / ^ v . / /' '* ; '"v'' ` ' '':'jC * J \ \ 8- 9 ; ` 10 f; :n Q / And in connection with" that,, if they use a vague term, whichyou consider a vague" term, do you have any w a y ,In '- " , 'r ' - :/ , reading, this document of-knowing what they mean by a. term that you consider vague? v';' s 12 J 13 1A Q. There's-no way we could know what'they meant. If you/were, to admit to,a' term that you, thought. - 14 j had one meaning and they thought >had.'another meaning, could '.15 .that have any adverse consequences In this proceeding? 16 "A V ;it certainly could*/ ' \ ' ^ _/./ - /.,' 17 r Q . And. in' an improper fashion? 18-m ; * 'a . -Yes*./ j'/./'// 19 Q ; where ybu'might admit "something that really you 20 didn't haye Lany intention of .admitting because it wasn't true? 21 22 . 23 i - 24 A That's 'cjoirect* \ ./ ;; Q Now, M r "Park,, as opposed-to;the use of language.' in these documents,and these are'lawyers, are they, sir, that prepared this document? ' J 152 FORM IL j24 B BAYONNE, N.J. ' 07002 1 A Yes , indeed ^. 2 Q And knew of how Requests for Admissions should i' r* ' `l v 3 be formed to get appropriate answers? 4 A Yes. r' ; ; ' 5 Q But as opposed to the use of a document in this 6 type of a proceeding, that's attempting *to asert violation of 7 an OSHA regulation and a penalty, as opposed to language used 8 in this type of document, Mr. Carr referred you to these 9 documents here, that are are these documents that are going 10 y from one Monsanto employee to another Monsanto employee? 11 A Generally, yes* 12 Q Where the use of terms might be something that 13 they both know what they're talking about? 14 A yes 15 Q Bo ifMonsanto analytical chemists-were to use 16 the term dioxin in connection,with the chlorophenol analysis 17 in talking to another analytical chemist, do you suppose that 18 that other analytical chemist with Monsanto might understand 19 what he means by the term "dioxin"? 20 A Yes. 21 Q But on the other hand, sir, if dioxin is in fact 22 a term that other people could use to mean not only tetra- 23 chlorodibenzo-para-dioxin, but nitrated dioxins -- do you take 24 a chance as to what OSHA might really be saying with these t i 1 attorneys when they say dioxin that they're saying the same ', i' * ' J fi i> , i_ 1 2 thing you are, or do you deny it? - 3 A Wo, we have to be:mor specific* . 4 Q And, Mr. Park, this problem that Mr Carr aludes 5 to about hoV or suggested to you that OSEA withdrew this 6 complaint because we denied these questions ~ did he suggest 7 that to you,sir? 8 A -I-- 9 Q Is that what you understood him to suggest? 10 A X think at one point he did* 11 Q And because they didn't have enough manpower, 12 something like that, he talked about not having manpower, or 13 didn't have enough help to do this* 14 A Resources IS Q How many lawyers names appear on these Requests 16 for Ad*missions? 17 A There are five lawyers names* Three lawyers were 18 working very actively on the matter* 19 Q - They've, got Clause, the Solicitor of L a b o r w h o s e 20 name appears on this pleading Herman Grant, the Regional 21 Solicitor, whose am appears on this pleading, Steven E 22 walanka, an attorney, whose name appears on this pleading on 23 behalf of the plaintiff in this case, OSHA, James L Borers, another attorney, and then Gerald C. Moten They've got five *i-nv "f"* i* \ `;^1 " ;t 7,J , 4Xl?*Jl' V"T' > . -1 L J 1 lawyers whose names appear on here* And you say three that 2 you're aware of that were actively working on it. 3 ? 4 -> 5 6 4 7 5 8 t 9 7 10 8 11 Si 12 ti 13 n 14 '2 15 1 13 16 i4 17 ;s 18 Ib 19 ! I ,n 1 20 i, 21 : 9 ! 22 : i 23 ; 24 A Yes. o is that right? i? hi A That's correct* r ` * i* t in working on this case iV * V t .1 i f 1 A ' ' - - '*> v-i v-- -- . -* J1l The last three were quite active Arid when you first1 started working on this nitter r5il.hr>;; ;v, SC"'-lh.0 t!iA.A Jo -r'\ - J' `;r ", ./.;, J were you handling it by yourself? ' 'w- 1 ' <*V-* A A 1 * "S ' ?-r 'V*'' A 'ftN i' * A Yes. '. -,,*'\Lit> ..>T y. r 'f*^i'a io ''Cf-i, r>"! 7'`.'jr-1! '7 Ahh' :i*7 And did you yourself hire this outside counsel* *i r* m t,.*J-***1 ' - Mio Pellegrini; is that correct? k Yes* ifdid. **.1j*1 Q Arid why was that, sir? J W j ar> vn k When X learned that three capable attorneys were 'V 3 . > ~i~ i 's'! ';^ ... vt> ho;*;'Of-i' >c~ V r :> representing OSHA in this matter* X figured that I should ' bring -*7 retain someone who really was more familiar with the (h\ r.ub.vcvorioftii kC the atooh';;OSHA practice than I was* hse ,>*1 1 * 'j it- rood's? Q ... A And you hired Mr* Pellegrini? /. O v i n Yes. y:;j to . ' - V . : V:u;;g7 on ;.`;r U All Vho v':oo-c;it rGio'/rco >'0 j.-- 7 - ; * \ q And the first thing that happened was the filing *'''O'"! 't t 2* 7' 1,f 1ri<7i*. / ,vrj * ,` of thisRequest for Admissions by these OSHA attorneys? A That cam pretty early* yes* Q And you responded to these? ;tTrmJ A Yes ; "* : vou, tr--., ;k -c - '* ' 'C' 'j ; 5S BAYONNtE .'Nj! } k* l * * ^ J -r* "V ,,L 1 i r t' ' 1 Q And Mr. Carr has gone over that with youi is that 2 right? . ... v - 3 A Yes. 4 0. And one of the responses in here that Mr. Carr 5 asked you about, did deal with the sample in question that 6 GSHA said their inspectors had found and analysed and had 7 found a level of TCDp'i isn't that correct? 8 A Yes, I believe. 9 Q X believe ibfs number 40, isn't it, sir? 10 A Yes. 1 11 Q Number 40 does it not read as followst "Responden 12 analyzed the chemical referred to in Request No. 33 for the 13 presence of dioxins (a) prior to the cleanup of the spill, 14 (b) subsequent to the cleanup of the spill* Xs that how 15 it reads? 16 A Yes, that relates to the Sturgeon spill. 17 Q All right* The chemical referred to in Request 18 number 33 is the Sturgeon spill. Allright. I've got the 19 wrong one here. Which one is it that I wanted to refer you 20 to? 21 A Number 20.. 22 Q Okay. Thank you. Yes.Number 25, does it not 23 read as follows "Respondent's analysis referred to in Request 24 No. 24 disclosed the presence of dioxinn and you answered {b)j -1 r * p witb respect to Request No* 24 (!<>*. that. there was a trace / V- V ' , -t.. V ' , ' . V ; amount;, is that correct? -'^ ^v . "r . * ^ 1' , p ' ........... - A Let's see, we*re at 24 (b) ? : ' \Q., Yes. Let*S' go back,.to Request number;20. Roques: l ' x* Hr* 'S * 4' ? number 20/falks. about a spil^occurring on February 21 , 1979; is that correct? r^ A.\-: That's, correct# ", Q tank car In the vicinity of Departments 236 and 23.6 and 237. *_ 1 ` , ' > . ; A /' Yes. ^ ; ,' ' - Q v- And thon Number 24 asks 'if Monsanto analysed i t- ` -,,J,f H"H' ' *r* * the chemical referred 'to in. number-2 0 , the one, we just talked, about;' .;j. .. V,r-' r-,'r. .' .A ; Yes. .- * ` ,, * . * > *> ' " "r ` P "V ` . Q And we answered that we did,.subsequent to the clean-up* ^ r . ,j v - * 'J .\ A' Yes. V. 0; - And then 25 says with ,regard to that analysis# subsequent to the clean-up, did it disclose the presence of dioxin. /; ;V ' 'v - d / \ .... ' ' A '' sYes./; /' t ' . `* Q And we said'it did in a trace amount; isn't that correct? , A Yes.,. 157 1 Q One o the violations or alleged violations that 2 OSHA was pursuing was that this spill material contained 3 sufficient quantities of contaminants that were potentially 4 harmful to the workers 5 A X can't remember the exact citations wording. 6 Q And in response to these admissions, we told them 7 that w had found a trace level; is that right? 8 A Yes. 9 fQ And this was one of the first things that happenei 10 in this lawsuit? 11 A .Ye 12 Q in fact, did anything else happen in this 13 allegation brought by OSHA after you responded to these# after 14 you told them that our analysis had found a trace amount? 15 A Well, there was some general things X remember* 16 There were conferences withthe OSHA lawyers* The OSHA lawyers 17 I know reviewed with their personnel a number of matters* 18 Q Did they request any samples of anything from you 19 A X can't recall any additional requests. 20 Q Did they ask any interrogatories, written 21 questions that we had to write answers to? 22 A NO. 23 Q Did they take any depositions? 24 A NO, r , .U / \f f, ^ U ~-.t i ?'-n !-v ; ", v: . n i V O. ! 1 ; J 1* Q Did they ever say that;they weren't doing it 2 because they didn't have.a big enough-work staff* these five t 3 lawyers? -'v. . 4` ' .j_` A % No* '; -: .'' `:- ' -_/ ; 5 Q , Did they yr say that they, weren't pursuing.this 6 matter because they .were, violating the very duty that Mr* Carr mi r 4- . h -i f u" v " 1 TM" ,, ; .,7 says they have to protect the health of.workers? ` 8 ;, A ; Ho.;, . , ' ,, 'V ' 9 Q That they were going to ignore that and not 10 'pursue this matter? y : T: - -, v . - y M A ,. NO*- - - .. r ' . ' --'"'r;'. . *- '` \ ' ' 1 ^^ 'J * 4 ' ' lj,r.r'* "'r1 . \ % `" ^ . - " >%T * -1 - 12 Q Did' they ever say that to you?- 13 , J 'A No.-';* 1 ,/."/ _ -;= \ " ' 'V*': , H , ^ <Qt Did .they eyver :give^you the results of ,,their. < \ 15 analysis?j ./- ,^ - - / "' 16 1A NO. 17 Q y,of this spill'material? Sir* did they? - ; 18 A. >' I c a n 1treraember with clarity* but X don't.--*, 19 I'm' sorry#/ I just don' t remember whether we received any or 20 not* . rj\. V 21 Q r Don't you "think/ sir* if they felt they had a `22 'case# a sample of this spilled -material, they claimed -they 23 had it, they put' it' in,the paper/, don't you think if they , 24 thought they had a cas;e, that they had, a violation of OSHA t ji im4r . --; '- ji- w,>. i:f4;,;' ;.* J*\ l; ^V*-> V - f* y '-* v% 159 FORM IL 14 B BAYONNE, N.J. 07001 I don't you think that they would have pursued it? 2 A Yes* 3 Q Has Mr. Carr showed you one piece of evidence 4 to suggest that they wouldn't have? 5 A No. 6 Q That these givegentlemen arejustfair-do-well 7 lawyers, that don't care about doing their job, and their 8 responsibility in following up? 9 A NO. J 10 Q Or don'thave the timebecause they're playing 11 golf? . 12 A Right* 13 Q Did he tell you that he's brought one piece of 14 evidence in this courtroom to substantiate that suggestion, sir 15 A ' No* 16 MR. CARRs Your Honor, I'm prone to interrupt, 17 Counsel has been going on for sometime. All of these questions 18 for the last two or three minutes have been leading and . 19 suggestive, and argumentative, and X object to them, and ask 20 that Counsel not do it anymore. 21 THE COURT $ They have been leading. They haven't 22 been objected to up to this point, but you will have to 23 rephrase future questions. 24 Q (By Mr* Musgrave) Let's talk some more about V --4 v ^ <; ; ;jj f \ , P; 1 ,2 3 4 5 6 7 ,8 -9 10 v 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 ,19 20 21 22 23 J 24 these requests, Mr. Park, ;just a bit.' Referring you to - , ^ _ ' -..i ` ` ,r , request: 11 ,[ 12. and; 13 that. Mr; Carrtasked you about. You'll, recall he asked you about 1 2 . . ^, A* Yes.` ^ . /" , k \ -- Q " And. why. that was. denied;. . YeS*- A '. 'j ,* i \ ^r - . , Q ": ' That the terra .tetrachlbrodibenzo-prdioxin> herein after referred to as TCDD,. refers to 22 potential isomers. A Yes. . -1- v '; Q That was .denied. . - - " <;.V '* ' ., A.A Q .YeS. .-``"/t...r ' - 'K 1 T ' Now, the.very next question uses the same term that was in quote before, does it not?*. .^ *'* , A' ;,Yes;'_i * ./ ; Q > TCDD? . o.;r \ \/ . A _Yes. Jr ^ ' ^ Q .Now in.that, question, ^that is request number 13* , does it refer to it there in asvbeing '22 potential isomers?-. ,i -* t i ', \^ ` 1 y ' .A ;v No. - :; -' r,, Q " what does ?it refer. to as.TCDD* or TCDD,-- ; 'A " . As a compound. Q r As. a compound. ' 1 * r L ' "' t 1 1. . * A ^ Yes.' ,, *. - p -^ ' ^ "*..* -- j -*v -1 ;' 'f / * ' Q Used;inrthe 'singular,, ai compound..* , ifV '-v.' <:'\,''!." ^*.. -. t*. i. / , , ' ^ i ; s ., j.i.?t t , f 'f i1 n \ t - ^ ! ' *. :, J * "r ' IV* ^ '* 161 FORM IL -2 4 B BIYONNE, N.J. 07001 * 1 2 3 4 y 5 6 7' 8 9 10 11 12 ' 13 14 15 , 16 17 18 ' 1? 20 , 21 22 23 24 " ' * ' L r* t - ` ^A r' y S* * v `' -r " , "r ' ' , J , 4 ` Q, '- ' ..4 , * S ' . ' , '' t And, .sir, .referring you; to the one. immediately in front of that, request number 11, up there it refers to 73 - that dioxin refers tor75 different compoundsr is that right? A * That's correct; - - \ j Q ,/l$ow, do you recall Mt*. Carr asking you a question about-there being 73 isomers of chlorodibenzo-para-dioxins? A > I think there was a question along those lines* Q ' ; He said some .people say,75, some people say 72> but 75. isomers has generally/been talked about in this court room,. ' ^ V r. ; -r ^` A : That's fight* -' r' 'J . Q ` Of the chlorqdibehzo-para-dioxin? A Yesi i ^ .'t ; r. Q , Is- that, right?.;./ - . ;/ - ; -- \ / : l A"'/, //.Yds/' * -/- , ;v " ,> \ry f - Q ' So up in IT the OSHA lawyers are now referring to dioxin as being 75 different compounds? is that right? A - ' That's what the^statement says there* Q And there'are,.75 isomets of chlorodibenzo-para-r, ' dioxin, we just talked about that?;isn't that right? A J,Yes* - ' 1 it *f ( ( ' % . 1 A irt * --- "1 / r (-: J ;. Q so these three;questions put<:together, could' they ' * ji , >' \,T '.j .> -i^'y 1 *" \t did they create confusion as to:just what the heck the government \ ' v i:v V i ," ^J> jr-1V.!A/Cv- '''. *i1' 162 i . , ,\j BAYONNE. N.J wanted to 1k ;. A 2 ;her@?v 'V ; - ' es*. -r : .-''Hi . 'v - `` 'Vr.>r' l ", V . , ^ ` - ^" % Or what.^'they .-said'1they weresaying? . 3 ' ' ft^ - -',\,r '-r "' * ,, `' ., * W L 'A ' Yes, they'dId .. ' , - ; V - /.' .. *. 4 .5 '_ Q LI n .12/they said TCDD -is 22 isomers, or 22 compounds y -, kbecause 'they say -that therisomers i n 1 2 are different compounds;j 6 '/don't they?tt\ ( ;,t ;x.\ " X 7 I- ( , -- A ,. ;OS ' ./- ' ^ 8, ir'.'/ ' *V - ,./ . " -, >. '*- *-pr- '? ^ : 9 I* 0 _:/Or`up in; 1 1 f they ..say that' theyfre ;different. /,; / ''compounds,, and in 13. they're saying TCDD is a toxic compound? 10 - II Isn't that- right? '\/-.-c ` ` ' ' V r ^ v - il : */, a That*s' correct# 7- \/ ^ `\- " 'v'. : 1'* / --/"y 13 Q .,,.-Toxicity^ sir,'is to your'wayof thinkinga' ^ couple'of grain's of salt toxic/if you'eat it? i ' 14 ,1 5 16 k 17 18 19 / A V r No* v . .v i'ir' % ' ' v 0 ' " - / *?:./ ; ` " " v Q k If youJeat a, quart of salt, to your knowledge cold it be; toxic? \ / y -.p A'./ Ves* ,.L> Q;. Is there :th sane ;distinction.to; be made, sir, 20 ; :in your mind, when/you're talking About-toxicity of different 21 ' compounds,, or. toxicity of the same compounds, even 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 , 22 ' one p rt per qua tf i1 lion* . ' fc-i as ;opposed : -il to -a>:g1 as s";of I t? , *r -. r* y - . y i' H i. ` *'yY.-i1 ,'v, ' *, ;- -i-\,i <vy.*1\, , 23 A .'/Yes# I think ^that applies to everything. 24 Q bid the government / a n d ;lawyers in any of these,, 163 - .' j-1 *.^/ -,^^r ' ;o/; V''V*^' /*/; y v y* /1- r L' ' - y ' pr : r T . > f -***f>.*' m\f - 'V,** \ f 1 r:?/i .J ;- L"1rv,?U , k: i;" * ''t% . w. , , J- 1 questions when they talked about, toxicity# give you a level or _ 2 a dose that-somebody was exposed to tget -- ' '3 " A V No.' - \ \;r ' .' 4 . Q -- to have you determine whether it was toxic or , 5 not? :' 1; /*''.* 6 A , No. r / - , 7 ,Q V And' if you would have answered 13 that TCDD is a 8. 9; JO toxic compound in the. affirmative# would that mean or could . that have been construed.by the government lawyers that any ,, ' '' ` ' -f * , _` -- jf level of t c d d 'is' toxic.?..;'' / /: 1 A. .V:7 I think it could hav.e.'-: , \ 12 Q Did that have"anything to do, sir# with the 13 reasons that you. denied some of these answers?' 14 A aj ^,I'm.sure it did. ` ` / 5 16 , 17 ' 18 , *Q ' Or questions-that were- requested, that ^dtealt, wit& . toxicity? :' a Q y p *, "i .rYes. t t.** ` . _ 1 ' -It 1h; 1 " V " V, - ,JT *" r - a, j_ ti' J . i- ' ^ * V / v ' " r h1 1~ 1r . ; Now# M r . Park#'Dr.'Wilson wrote ' "** ' 1 i F% H\ ^ " '' some memos ' about 19 ..by-product# and what he thought a by-product wsls; is that ' \.'i ' r ,J< - 20 correct? \ -, ' -`L ` ' \ - 21 `*' . / A 22 Q Yes. - ' }. >; T1V:'. 1 - "`1-V,i ;('%' >' Vi 1;' ' , 9' - b i d you. agree o r disagree with .those# or- d_you - 23 r e c a l l ? . - ,, * ! t r- -j ; j "-; /.' i.r ' . , y im\- y' : t- J .1/ . S \ t1 ' , i> 1 j ` - - , # ^ \ 1 < * rr 1 f ^ i ^ y - ^ i ^ , j; 24 * . A / I frankly cannot^-recall my owii view*' /- 164 L-'j'C' .1 ; /' - Q D o y o u know'whether the.government lawyers in 2 preparing this'document wore distinguishing between a by-product . 3. "and`a contaminant?,/../''':-;,;^, * .,, ; */ /'/ \ / . \ v, 4 A I don't know /what the government meant when they 5 '-'put that .te^m in* // / / / /^v '* / ... "' " / `,e '* L 6 ;f t' Q Well# they'talked .about dioxin or polychlorinated 7 dlbenzo-p-dioxin as- a 'by-product in number 8 #.didn' t they? V 8 A V'--es - < . 1 .'< , * 9 - . Q / / / Did you notice iti number 46#, sir#' that ;wh^n they 10 \ talked abouttfioxin there# that they talked about it,as a / 11 v -contaminant?' ,*/' `.//-J;.'" . -' " ; "/ /'. ';v 12 //- '-yes,/ ^ */.*-- '/ o : , '*. '/;/ 13 / / /. : - Q- Did you notice then in. 47| sir# they started 14 / talking about: dioxin again snd they'called it a/contaminant / 15 jor a by-product?. '/ ; '* & l-? 16 ^ A> " '-.yes*/ -r r '-V 1 ' ;17 r Q -/ .And# sir# with regard to this 46> that's where " Wj '- ' . / #1 J i l ' > - '^ " Jr -^1 ,, 11 , I- ' V . ' "J J^ " - r> J f i.1- 1 ' ". r ' r L, `- i h L ^ t *L " `v ,18 it was denied that the manufacturing.;process of certain 19 . 'chlpr.inat^.phenols ^produced at the krimmrich Plant, potential 20 contained: the followihg. cdnt'ainihantsV fche/first;thing they say ' r - i. -. . -/ -\ -^ *'>i> !-. r.vk.'i*i*-ij&1,,;r" *\ -`-' . - .-21 is dioxinsir ribght? ' u/.-v *< i */.* v \ - ''-./ 22 A J e 's* '*/^/-1// ''/ A ^ . -v / L;///:v=/i Z/./'-/- ///-i / j// ,1 ', . ' 23 Q . Now -in other places 'in .this document do they not, 24 it i J^ ^ ' " r 2 LFT _yf ^ y J 1~ f WSr ' L ' .use the term polychlorinated dibenzo-prdioxinlike in number 0? ' ........ 165 BA YO N N E. l N ,J, 1 A That'S'correct; * 2 Q And hadn't you previously denied that the termr 3 dioxin referred 1 * 4 t h e COURT: Mr* Musgrave* rephrase the question 5 The last three; at least* have been.leading* and I told you 6 to rephrase the leading questions Do so immediately. 7 Q . (By Mr. Musgrave) Number 11* sir* what does that 8 say? 9 A ' "The term dioxin refers to 75 different compounds 10 dependent upon the location of the chlorine atoms within the 11 dioxin molecular structure.1* i 1 12 Q You were requested to admit that? 13 A That's right* 14 Q Did you admit or deny it? 15 A . We denied it. - ' ' 16 Q And did you give an explanation as to why you 17 denied it? - 18 A Ho* \ t 19 Q Pardon me *J-sir?'; ., <-l 20 A No. ll* * - *1 *\^ ,' "i> u \; ''l .-1 J ' 21 Q I think you.might look, at your answer* sir. 22 ^ \ `i r. * , ' ,, A I'm sorry., I'm sorry* I was looking at the wron? 23 one. We did explain that; ,s 24 Q And what was the explanation? 1 A We said dioxin refers to a broad class of compound 2 estimated to exceed 1 0 , 0 0 0 in number 3 Q All right And so you denied it, 4 A Yea 5 Q And so back in 46# sir# did the response that you 6 gave in 11 have anything to do# sir# with your denial of 46(a) f 7 that is that certain chlorinated phenols produced at the plant, 8 the Krummrich Plant# contained potentials contaminants such ais 9 quote# dioxin, close quote? 10 A . I think that's corrects 11 Q And did M r C a r r show you any documents here# sir# 12 with regard to the denial of 46(b)# and did he show you any 13 documents here where any of these chlorophenols are shown to 14 contain all 2 2 .-- 15 A NO 16 g -- of theDD isomers? ' 17 A ' No 18 Q And does 46(b) specify which isomer it's talking 19 about when it says TCDD? 11 ' . ^ 1 , 20 A It implies 22# all of them. 21 Q And handing^you what's been previously marked as 22 Plaintiff's Trial Exhibit 1119, which is the OSHA citations# '' , . ;I t, 1 }. t` ' t 23 sir# I'd like you to readthrough that and tell'me if you see 24 in that any place the word "wilful" or "deliberate" -o '- 1 2 'J 3 4 A * 'I do see right '* " ^ ^ at' the'top of 1 *'j, 1 ^ citation 2 the ' 4- " 2 F :" V + < 4 H-lr J,` ,' ' T r w ' ' 't. t { i ' ^ ' phrase or term "Wilful/Serious." 1 *, " . 4 \f * __ * i ** ( ^ S*' ,Qr' r-J Anyplace'else* .sir? y ` ;, 1 r . v \ r 1 i'A v ;Nowhere'eisei\.-:-; 1 '5 ^ . Q\ j,D o -you know rwhether that "wilfui/snrious" means 6 either one,`or b o t h , o r d o y o u k n o w ? r :; . 7 ' . . A ' I. think it "means either one# and it's generally 8 ; taken, to he serious'.: ; '' : v. 9 ` _ ' r * . `Ml':CiUlRt^;;iCounsel'> s we don?t have to. go through io ; this oh recross* why donlt you point put-,that there*s a halt ` ' U > >; a .dozen pages, at least/off this 10 page citation that have the. 12 word wwilful/seriousw :/ '13 , '; f '/* ; MUSGKA^Es; ^ilfuVeetious? / *' 14 ' 15- MR-' GARRa V it :'I v : ' : ' f ' 'v ^ .THE. WITNESS -Ses*. . 16 ., './v -V MR* GARR8; You; said. nowhere ,else.- One,:two, threo If . four , five>. six, seven, eight ,pa^es .of the -- one# t w o p f . Y v '- i ' *f \ " i i f ; ' \ r' 18 ' r the fourteen page/ document; icontain the, words "vllful/serious. ' ' .- ' '\/ "iUjiA^ vh';;V i,, ' ^^ H vir#* 5V - '? v U ^ . !-V *V pl( ^ '" '' 19 - Q f .(By Mrr;wusgrave) Arid, that is a wilful-slash- . .+.* .- .* 20 . 'serious? ^ r" ' **` - .~J~ >..,f{>V"?.' /*.T'-f1 V ` ;/"* \r\. ir s.` * i >1-. 'j. ' J?.; 1 V:; -J.,'-1 v- ' ' :,,'W- V -v ^rv ' J* . ' ' *: K y, - -F 21 . 22 f.-.'- . -> ' Ves. '- ^ f - --r yV-*if*\ "*1> , ,:';i.(i $:..,-ikv: r *; Q - And'is it'contained anywhere'in the body of^ the ! : . 23.^ ? document de;scribing.;!the^,:hlleg.dd' allegations? / 24 ' /'/ ' A I..dbn;Vt think so. / '* 163 `B AY O NN E . K . J ' 1 Q It's just wilful/serious at the top* is that 2 right? -. ` 3 A Yes* 4 Q Mr Park# you saw Mr. or Mr* Carr asked you 5 about-the one Reguest for Admission about the -- whether we 6 had analysed orthochlorophenol* Do you recall that? 7 A Yes* , 8 Q And he showed you the Dr* Wilson memo where he 9 talked about analyzing orthochlorophenol? 10 A Yes* < L ; 11 G Have you ever heard of orthochlorophenolcrude? 12 A Yes* 13 Q Do you know whether there's a distinction betwee 14 orthochlorophenol* the product* and orthochlorophenol crude* 15 the product? . * 16 A I think there's a distinction* 17 , q Let me show you.'Plaintiff ?s Trial Exhibit 1138*' 18 as well as Plaintiff's Trial Exhibit 1135, it was marked twice 19 'i '' - ;\ ~, . i, ^i it's also a memo by Dr.Wilson that Mr. Carr put into evidence* 20 is it ndfc? , P 21 A ' Yes* 'i _ r * * L` 1 ' a i ' v J' ` iT" 22 Q And does Dr* Wilson in there refer to these same 23' analyses that were done in '78 that were referenced in the 24 other exhibit he showed ypu where he talked about, the ortho*- 1 chlorophenol? 2 A He calls these samples OOP crude 3 Q Do you know whether he knew or understood at tfye 4 time he wrote these memos possibly the distinction between 5 orthochlorophenol and orthochlorophehol crude? 6 A l would think he should know the difference 7 Q ' Mr Park, Mr Carr also1 showed, you# I believe 8 was Plaintiff's 1543 This was preparedness, question and 9 answer on soil sampling that was, prepared by Sarah Collins* 10 Do you have that# sir? "\ 11 A Yes# 1 do 12 Q And he asked/you about the finding of a level d> 13 dioxin in one of the locations there in the sampling that w^s 14 done This Is on page; % of this exhibit. 15 A Ye 16 Q And you reaall' that he asked you a question r *" - t1 tt " j\ ' 'i k 17 about -- question 8 --^pardon me#-question 6 and answer 6 18 Do you have that? v.J i > i ' \ ? 19 . A Yes , - . ' ^r _ 1 ./ . ;r *. 20 Q About what Monsanto was going.to do about the 21 potential exposure 22 A ` Yes. 23 Q And it was indicated that the area was going tc 24 be paved. Vj ^ ^/'; '. '' .YY/ j :>- ,. , >' 1 '2 \; .,y \ y y , - - \ - ; ^ . y ;vy y ; - .- Q '** ^What does question 7 and* answer 7> -.the, .ones 3 ' . immediately next 'to.ity what; do those read, sic? Y ` ,4 5 - ;A-, : ;Question 7Vsays', RAre you paying theklot just -,jJ ' -i . jJY > - Y y [y , because of the dioxin?" Answer ,;"No. We planned to extend: tho 6 parking lot prior to .the -sampling program*" t . \ ^ L.,,\ r ' 7>,S'* '* r-. ^ ^ ,, v, . -% .* - vt *y * ^ "y ^ y -, - -, ,1 * - k * r- r% : / 7- y ; . 1 'Q Y- y And,, question 6 ,.'would you read that, sir. Y> " . ...S\. - ' Y/'V /' . ., . Y^. J ' J . ; ' 8 .. Y j'- A y - *.:Question 6 , ,-Don 1 1 .you consider the- one near tike ;; '`"*t v;-` /; ' : "V/ y ,,V. , r; :> '`"J' ^' _Y -9 " ` fence ;area ar health-' ha card? "''V` 1'';> ' '^ r ;' -;- 1 J- io. j j 1; \ * 11 ' ** 1 <r VJ "V .1 2 ' \ ;;Q' 'And .the answer to ;t^at; : ^ ^ -/ 'c A, \ The' answer reads/ "n o # The dioxin was detected. a couple ,of inches belpw_the surface in an area .where there * ri has been a low-potential;.for' exposure with,;the parking. - 14 lot extension;this areawill be paved over, eliminating any 1. " is ' Y :. 16"0 ' exposur** ; v;. : . "' ';- ' , ' . - .ii J'- .-, 'r. `- is -< Y -i tV '* Y *' Q Now, Sarah;-Collins/ ,sir;, the author; of this, 1 . . ., ` -J : ' <f r. ; " v - . 'j 4 . - , ^ .-, * Li . . 17 ,do you knoJwW 'Vihen. she. started with Monsanto?. ^ Y ' ;i- y V-v - Y- V ^ t '' *-l ,> 18 ; A , v;.No, I, don *11 really',y > ;Several;;years^ago r ;i9 : 20 i uQ, y'a -'""I-/1, D.b y-o' u' ,kJ n"v.o...w,JwifhA. e"tI her'f l! shke >vT/. ,a1s, ' e'. mt pJloy.*1.e'd' ih 1979? : ' " 'A'. ,Lj.. ' .. rY,`y V ) Y lvl; Y r'i : J . A jV'.'-X'!'frankly`.dn--fc'''remember* ^ ` ' Y/ ;1 2i Q -'^N'o'w, "`in 'q-.u,est..io-n-ii0,'' i'tr, yis aske'd*,' is .it not', si;::, ' . 22 . . Y." ^ 23 ."Had you ever .tested for TCDD before now?"' ; ; . i . y y -y . B. A' YYes.. . s.< s r-Tl7 ' 24' ' 'Qr And would you read the answer to. us. ^ 171 J' r` 1N f^ * ' * *-J Lg -" -1 * l \ r1 * Y ^ irY -J T 1- ^ J- 1 r,. iY Y J t% ' /' L ' "Y " f 1 I .> * i4 *, *1 - ' j-j J ' d 'V k ' V '/ ' - ^ 1I ^ - ' ` r '* -i.V . 1' A ' `'V ' TheVanswer reads' ."w.'have tested .'for TCDD by ;; ^ -'-;/ \.;;,.V \ V , ,,- / - r 2 taking wipe sauries arid found-, it n o t t o be present./In taking 3 4 . " 5. 6 /the wipe samples, we tested the surface of eguipmentandfurni* ture in the chlorophl.riits arid their control areas *, '' - v ' W , > i-, v- Q - do you khow' whtherSrafrCollins was familiar ~ ,, J: ,v +%1 , 'u - , . \ 't 1 1 V* ^ it \ * k ' rj ` < < . *- i i` v 1' i* . ' 1' ^. with that June, 1979 wipe sample exhibit that Mr / Carr showed i r;you, that *had' one binding;of : -contaminant -in Departmerit 237?', * F- " 1 `jj #F ' j > ' ' F- ^ pV;i*L i*i ^ * jt\ " r H.'"r ' rj.* - * - ; 8 ', / I don* t knpWo -: , -v- 9 ;!/ //Q That was:.some four .and a half years-earlier# 10 ;,M "wasn't it * sir? . 'r - J i * \ > ' .+ ^ , *' > * ^ , " * ^ , y- A - ., That's ,correct* ' r'" " - ! ^ ^ J Jr* - \ 1' 1r \ ;/ Lr ^ ' *v p ''f j t-, 12 ; ' ./ Q . -. From this document- dated November,; of 1983 . : ; ^ 13 '-A Yes, 14 . /. - Q D o y o u know,sirr v/hether any wipe :samples were : 15 r ' tj * t ' '*t } 7 i ' k i SV ^ i ' * -, * ' j *" " ^*-1 j - v t ^ + - - taken at th Krunmirich* Fiant;i n 'th 'interim;? between June of ; '. \ -, *\ 16 .'79Vand November of. *83 .when Sarah'1 Collins prepared ,this memo? \ 1 '''-'- (V:/%S - y\/. ?/-' . 1 ' ' *. . 17 ; v . there^werb/.aj^uriib o f s a m p l e s taken 18 / .. V " ' Q ;,,/Po you know which ^results Sarah Colline might have , . 1 . -"/ j.- _L , 'n - / . "^ i. / ` j / ; ' *v f ; j yi'*.1..*' ^ ^r7 ' l. J/.lKf~yi< \ .; 3' 1 - / "j ' - '^ ' 19 been referring to when :she said "We tested for TCDD by taking 20 wipe samples"?V '-/:/>.v.; ; f**- / 21 .A She's probably referring to some more recent in' 22'/ ^ 23 24" ,time. 1 - ,J. ' .^ v / ' - ^ /r r . Q Do/you think#.sir,.she would have.gone all the Way ; ' " v-''/_, v ; (.V''* .; * _t `V, ' back to, 1979 if the sample testing fo^ the last couple of years 172 *'V i n r*\, BAYONNE, N .J . 0 7 0 0 * .- FORM IL 2 4 B ] had shown that there"were no .findings of TCDD in wipe samples? * ;, 1\ - r <** r* *_ * , t\ * m <L " r ' * - ,, *^ iy /* - * ^ 2 -A I think',it* s ,quite possible she might have gne ' ' ^ LV> 1 1 ` ` " -J- ' , r., ,1 , 3 back just.ayfew years/ahdkfound that none had been detected, 4 and then s t o p p e d , , r r -A S - "" u ^ , 5 -, MR. CARR ' ;Yr Honor I -object to this as, pure 6 speculation*/ y y . y, .' . -y . -y ^ 7/ v'. / ,yMR. MUSGRAVEfr Vieil/ your Honor - hes asking TM :, ,8 V MR* CARR.r. hhd Counsel knows it* 9. v MR.' MUSGRAVE* He's askedrthe witness to speculate 10 about all kinds of things. / I^think this is just.aa clearly 11 admissible speculation ;as t o ,what, he-1 s asked the witness to- 12 speculate ^about. y --//'- "v r; "//. ^'y. 13 ' 1 THE COURT? You made the objection as, to .specula-: * . , ' .-/ ' /) \\ (.s y y y <y>;yf y ll/i * ' 14 tion. It's my opinion, that they-haven't been;speculation * ,, ;; Y"\-> /v y-r y '\> ',:, : r '* \ .* ~ w * *J 15 They've been proper questions* This.witness is a lawyer. This - ,'r -y 'j/. .,*, .-* *y?y-v y V X V'-< 'r\ v-'i;Tts "yV;*\, .-,i, ' j 16 particular *question that~ you're talkigj about lis ^speculation - BAYONN,E .NJ- OI0 FOB** IL AB 17 and the objection will be sustained.- ''see it's a couple minute s , ' i,, * . ' , ' ; v.f / i '?_ !t h V f i- iv `-j t< 18 . after four^so' we' 1 1 -terminate, proceedings for the day at this 19 point in time. ^ r :y `" , ' . .y ,.y y *i ^ n , i *1 '+ 20 ;Ladies and' gentleinen# we v/ill adjourn for the day 1 1 * y: ^f` 4 \ " ' ' J , ^- *'* J . r' ^T -- V'r L^- 21 \ at this 'time* , We will resume again Monday, at 9*00, I want to ` t y. - *1 ' ,, m~~-\ * -22 remind you, besides the regular. admonishments over any break 23 that you're not to read' listen. to or: watch anything about this ' 24 case in particular:or 'subject mattr in general in/any' of the'' 173^ 4 t v % 1 media, or electronic* Thank you for your attention and 2 cooperation* Have.a good weekend* We'll see you on Monday* * *'\ * 3 4 (Court adjourned} 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 f , 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 fj&Z&XlGAD , C O ., B A Y O N N E , N . j ; 0 7 0 0 2 . 1 STATE OF ILLINOIS 2 TWENTIETH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT SS. 3 COUNTY OF ST. CLAIR.. 4 5 I, RICHARD P. GOLDENHERSH, Circuit Judge, do 6 hereby certify that the foregoing transcript is a true and 7 correct copy of said transcript. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24