Document zo005DqQ0a9KJpnBnq3jGdwrz

r G. MacDonald 10 1 A. Four years and two to three months. I stepped - 2 off the committee in March, 1969. >y 1 ' 3 Q. Who appointed you? 4 A. I was appointed by President Johnson. 5 (Brief interruption.) 6 Q. Did you also spend some time as an 7 employee, officer or participating member of the 8 Institute for Defense Analysis? 9 A. I did. 10 Q . For what period of time, sir? 11 A. I was appointed Vice-President for Research of i 12 the Institute for Defense Analysis in 1966, 13 September of 1966. Served between 1967 and '63 as I i 14 Executive Vice-President, leaving the Institute of i 15 Defense Analysis in August of 1968. I also served ! iI Ji 16 as a member of.the Board of Trustees of the j 17 Institute of Defense Analysis' in the period 1965 j 18 through 1970, March 1970. 19 Q.' For any part of that time was work at the 20 Institute for Defense Analysis your principal i 21 ' occupation? 22' ! A. During the period 1955 through 196, work at 23 24. I 25 1 the Institute of Defense Analysis was- my principal occ upa t ion . 1 , Q. Did there come a time, Dr. MacDonald, w n n n n n H er^inolli ^or+iiioH eh A rth n n rl rcirMort^rc i i : G. .MacDonald 11 1 when you became aware that herbicides or defoliants 2 were being used in Vietnam? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. When did you first become aware of that? 5 A. To the best of my recollection, some time in 5 the March through April time period in association 7 with my work for the President's Science Advisory 8 Comm itte e . 9 Q. What year? in J 11 A. 19^5. * Q. Did there come a time when yo u became 12 aware that one of the constituents of the herbicides 1I 13 being used in Vietnam or defoliants being used in i 14 Vietnam was a chemical called 1*5 2 , 4 , 5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid? 16 A. Y e s . 17 Q. Or 2,4,5-T? 18 A . Yes . 19 Q . Would you understand the term 2 , 4 , 5-T if 20 j. I used that term? 21 ` A . Yes. * 22 Q. May I use the term PSAC -- 23 A. Yes. 24 i Q- To describe the President's Science 25 Advisory Committee. ^ o rfifio H ih r ir t h n n r f ro n n rla r G. MacDonald ! Ii 12 i 1 Would you describe the circumstances in 2 which you became aware that 2,4,5-T vas 3 constituent of herbicides or defoliants being used 4 in Vietnam? 5 A. To the best of my recollection, there .was a 6 subgroup of PSAC concerned with biological chemical I 7 warfare. In the deliberations of that group, the 8 issue of the use of herbicides and the presence of 9 dioxin in the herbicides was discussed. It was 10 brought before the full committee for informal 11 discussion during the period April, 19^5 through, I 12 would say, June or July. I do not recall the exact 13 date, nor do I have the record. 14 15 read MS. WHEELER: Could I have that answer ' back, please. i ! IS (The answer is read by the reporter.) ' ! i 17 M R . ADAMS : I move to strikethe answer | * I 18 as not being responsive, subject to the Doctor's | 19 connecting .his first contact or his first knowledge ; 20 with - ; his original answer. I j I 21 Q. I guess I didn't say that at the ! iI 22 beginning, but lawyers can say anything they want. 23 .Your job is you are supposed to answer the questions, 24 unless the government tells you that the answer 25 wo uld involve that's up to the government to G . MacDonald 13 i explain. And by government I mean Ms. Wheeler. i j Was the subject of the presencefcvof dioxin 3 in 2,4,5-T discussed by the subgroup on biochemical 4 warfare of the President's Science Advisory c Committee in your presence? *I 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Who were the members of that subgroup 8 that were present when th presence of dioxin was j i l j ! 9 discussed? A. To the best of my recollection, Philip Handler, 11 I Melvin Calvin, and I believe, I'm unclear in my recollection, but I believe Frank Westheimer, and 12 !i 13 William McElroy. 14 Q. Were any staff members of the Office of II lI 15 Science and Technology present during those 15 discussions? t 17 A. To the best of my recollection, Vincent McRae. 18 MR. ADAMS: What's the name, Doctor? 19 20 21 ? THE WITNESS: Vincent McRae,, M-c-R-a-e . Q. When did those discussions, that is to say those in the subgroup as distinguished from ! \ 22 those of the full committee, take place? 23 A. In the period March through July, 1965. ii 24 Q. To the best of your recollection, Dr. 25 MacDonald, what was said in the course of those /"inr( snnialli ^hnrthnnri n arw iers G. MacDonald 4 discussions and who said it? 14 M R ADAMS: I'll object to i U* in it ia 11 y , but you can answer# Doctor. A. The discussions related to, first, the use of herbicides, their military effectiveness, and the issue of.potential toxicity was raised. To the best of my recollection, Dr. Handler and Dr. Calvin were involved in these discussions. MR. GROSS: Is that Calvin? THE WITNESS: Calvin, C-a-l-v-i-n. i , MR. GROSS: Thank you. i ; Q. To the best of your recollection, Dr. MacDonald, what was said in these discussions, and j ! by whom, about the subject of the potential toxicity of 2,4,5-T? MR. ADAMS: Objection for the record. You can answer it. A. ' The question of whether the material was i j potentially toxic was discussed, and the evidence I,, ' : relating to the potential toxicity was discussed. j 0. To the best of your recollection, Doctor, j what was said in these discussions, and by whom, about the presence of dioxin i Z, 4,5-T? * MR. A D A M S : ' Objection. ~ ~ -- - Jier- nicion between Dr. v ._ : I * G. MacDonald 15 11 2 vt Handler and Dr. Calvin about dioxin, what^vas known * about the chemical, the chemistry of dioxin and its 3 potential toxicity. I iii 4 Q. Was the d i o x i n Tdiscussed identified as l 5 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorod ibenzo-p-d iox in? 5 A. To the best of my recollection, yes. .7 Q. What was said by Dr. Handler and Dr. e Calvin about the potential toxicity of dioxin? i i t 9 MR. ADAMS: Objection. 10 Q. And by that term I mean that long ii 11 chemical name I just gave you. 12 A. Y e s , s i r . 12 * There was a discussion about the evidence 14 as I recall. Both felt that the evidence was 15 fragmentary and inconclusive, but that it was a C 15 subject that deserved continuing attention. 17 Q. What was said in the course of those 19 discussions about specific indications of the 1? toxicity of dioxin? 20 MR. ADAMS: Objection. 21 A. I do not recollect. 22 Q. Do you recall anything being said in 23 those discussions about a skin ailment known as 24 chloracne?