Document zeOdwZzqQ190N9dvGZ1Lq19R

1 which is in re: All Asbestos Cases. Page 1019 2 John D. McAllister, after having first been 3 duly sworn was examined and testified as follows: 4 Page 17 . 5 READING OF DEPOSITION OF JOHN D. McALLISTER 6 TAKEN ON MARCH 30, 1983 7 (Whereupon, the questions were read by Mr. 8 Smith and Ms. Tostanoski and the answers were read by 9 Mr. Ignatowski.) 10 BY MR. SMITH: 11 Q Mr. McAllister, from your resume -- excuse 12 me. 13 I understand, Mr. McAllister, from your 14 resume that you were employed by Owens-Illinois from 15 1948 to 1952? 16 A That is correct. Let us backtrack just a 17 second. The start of employment with Owens-Illinois 18 was 1947, not 1948. 19 Q Mr. McAllister, when did you first become 20 aware of the disease process asbestosis? 21 A As a possible disease process, I became 1 aware of it when I was working for Owens-Illinois as Page 1020 2 an outshoot from the known hazards of silicosis 3 resulting from inhalation of crystalline silica 4 particles. 5 Q And when, if at all, did you first become 6 aware of research regarding lung diseases that were 7 done at the Saranac Laboratories in New York? 8 A In my employment at Owens-Illinois, there 9 were periodic staff meetings at which were reported 10 research and development results and findings. 11 One such report involved a brief summary of 12 an ongoing investigation involving potential 13 respiratory hazards resulting from inhaling 14 diatomaceous earth, which was one of the calcium 15 silicate raw materials used in the Berlin Kaylo 16 manufacturing operation. 17 Q What did you do while you were at Owens- 18 Illinois to familiarize yourself with the raw 19 materials used there? 20 A I was hired as a plant chemist to start up 21 the Sayreville plant at some point in the future. Page 1021 1 As plant chemist, my areas of responsibility 2 were raw materials characteristics and control as they 3 might affect the process and product characteristics. 4 I made fairly extensive literature searches 5 on all raw materials used in the process. 6 Q Could you describe the nature of your 7 initial duties at Owens-Illinois? 8 I know you have touched on that before, but 9 go into a little more detail. 10 A I was hired at Owens-Illinois, as I said, to 11 be a plant chemist at the Sayreville plant when it 12 went into operation. 13 There was a period of about a year and a 14 half in which I served as a research and development 15 engineer mixing small trial batches of Kaylo, calcium 16 silicate using different raw material sources. 17 At the same time in conjunction with those 18 trial batches, the characteristics, the physical and 19 chemical characteristics of the individual raw 20 materials and raw material sources being investigated 21 were made. Page 1022 1 This included materials such as quick and 2 hydrated lime, various sources of diatomaceous earth, 3 natural diatomaceous earth as opposed to calcine 4 diatomaceous earth, clay, amosite, chrysotile 5 asbestos , various finenesses of silica flour. 6 Q And where were those duties performed that 7 you described? 8 A In the Berlin plant. 9 Q Again, what products were made there at that 10 point in time? 11 A The Berlin plant at that point in time 12 produced a mix line of pipecovering, insulating block, 13 fireproof door core material, and some experimental 14 batches of roof tile. 15 Q Now, which, if any, of those products 16 contained asbestos? 1 17 A They all contained asbestos. j 18 Q And what type of asbestos was that? j 19 A It varied from time to time, but typically 20 all of the products contained both chrysotile and j 21 amosite asbestos. 1 Q And -- Page 1023 2 A The proportions varied depending on the 3 slurrying characteristics. 4 Q What about the insulation block that you 5 described? Did that contain both types? 6 A As I said earlier, all products contained 7 both types of asbestos. 8 Q And would you have any knowledge as to the 9 sources of that asbestos? 10 A The chrysotile asbestos was obtained from 11 most of the United States' Canadian sources then in 12 existence. 13 As I remember them, they were 14 Johns-Manville, National Gypsum, and Ruberoid. 15 The amosite asbestos was purchased from 16 these sources as I remember them. Union Asbestos and 17 Rubber, Turner & Newall, Cape Asbestos, and various 18 asbestos brokers. 19 Q And the name of the insulation block was 20 Kaylo? 21 A Kaylo. Page 1024 1 Can you describe the products by which that 2 insulation block was made at the Berlin plant while 3 you were there? 4 A Typically a water slurry was formed by 5 adding asbestos, either quick or hydrated lime, 6 diatomaceous earth, and silica flour. 7 That water slurry was then pumped by hose 8 into a rectangular pan-type mold of the appropriate 9 width and length and thickness to form a product which 10 varied primarily in thickness from inch and a half 11 thick to as much as three and a half inches thick. 12 Typically the length and width dimensions 13 were 18 and a quarter inches wide by 36 and a half 14 inches long. 15 Q And what happened after that? 16 A That product, that pan, that mold containing 17 the slurry was placed on a car along with other molds 18 of similar fill and the car was pushed along with 19 other cars into an autoclave in which the product was 20 exposed to temperatures in excess of 325 degrees and 21 steam pressures in excess of 125 pounds per square Page 1025 1 inch gauge, and the lime and silicious materials were 2 reacted under those conditions to what was deemed to 3 be complete reaction. 4 Typically that time period was five to eight 5 hours at saturated steam pressure. 6 The autoclave was vented. The cars 7 containing the product were transferred from that 8 autoclave to a hot hair drier, the excess water driven 9 off to dry the product out, at which point in time the 10 product was stripped in the mold pan and finished the 11 final dimension in a finishing process involving end 12 trimming and side trimming with band saws and 13 thickness surfacing with a high speed router, after 14 which the finished and fully dimensioned product was 15 packed in cartons for sale. 16 Q Now, what, if any, equipment -- what, if 17 any, dust control equipment did you observe in 18 operation at the Berlin, New Jersey, plant of 19 Owens-Illinois at that time? 20 A On the mixing floor starting out from 21 receipt of raw materials, those men involved in 1 unloading and handling raw materials from railcar or Page 1026 2 truck to storage warehouse wore pneumocononic 3 preventive respirators. 4 The material on the arresting floor for 5 batch purposes was handled by batch mixers, mixing men 6 who also wore respirators. 7 Q The same type of respirator? 8 A The same type of respirator. In those 9 instances where amosite asbestos was being used and 10 mixed, that amosite asbestos was put through an 11 attrition mill or hammer mill to open up the bundles 12 of fibers. 13 The men who serviced those mills and handled 14 and processed that asbestos wore the same type of 15 respirator. 16 In the finishing operation or as the molded 17 product was trimmed to final dimension, the men 18 operating the saws wore such respirators. 19 Additionally, in the finishing operation at 20 all cutting points, there were air handling dust 21 collecting systems installed, which took the dust kerf 1 loss from such cutting operations to a bag-type 2 collector, dust collector. 3 Q Was this a vacuum-type of dust control? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And you were at -- if Iunderstand your 6 testimony correctly, you were at the Berlin, New 7 Jersey, plant from - 8 A 1947 through the start of the Sayreville 9 plant which, I believe, was late 1948 or early 1949. 10 Q At that point did the nature of your work 11 and duties change at that point? 12 A At what point? 13 Q I am sorry. After the startup ofthe 14 Sayreville plant. 15 A Yes. Upon startup of the Sayreville plant, 16 I moved from the Berlin operation to the Sayreville 17 operation and my duties changed from that of research 18 and development engineer to that of initially plant 19 chemist. 20 Subsequent to having operated as plant 21 chemist, I also became supervisor of the batching Page 1027 Page 1028 1 department and the forming or processing departments. 2 Q Now, what products were made at Sayreville 3 while you were there? 4 A Initially roof tile and fireproof door core 5 material and light density block insulation. 6 Later on just prior to the shutdown of the 7 Sayreville plant, pipecovering was also made at 8 Sayreville in limited quantities. 9 Q Did that pipecovering have any particular 10 trade name? 11 A The entire product line, block and pipe, was 12 called Kaylo. 13 Q Now, of the products that were manufactured 14 there, which, if any, of those products .contained 15 asbestos? 16 A They all did. 17 Q What type of asbestos did they contain? 18 A The same types of asbestos as reported for 19 the Berlin plant. Mixtures of chrysotile and 20 amosite. 21 Q And would the sources of that chrysotile and 1 .amosite be the same as you have already testified to? Page 1029 2 A Subject to market availability conditions, 3 yes. 4 BY MS. TOSTANOSKI: 5 Q Now, could you describe the process by which 6 the pipecovering block was made? 7 Well, first, insofar as the block material 8 that was made there, did that process differ from the 9 process that you had observed at Berlin? 10 A Yes. It involved an intermediate step which 11 took the slurry, the liquid slurry which had been cast 12 and panned and put it through a medium temperature 13 steam atmosphere to give it a hardening effect, after 14 which reaction the product in the mold pans was put 15 into the ware cars and subsequently processed. 16 Essentially the same as that at the Berlin 17 plant. 18 Q Did the Sayreville plant have the same dust 19 control equipment and availability of respirators as 20 you have described with respect to the Berlin plant? 21 A The Sayreville plant, because it was newer 1 and designed specifically for the purpose, had Page 1030 2 additional dust collecting equipment that was not 3 available at Berlin. A Q What was that additional equipment? 5 A That additional equipment involved dust 6 collection systems for the raw materials storage areas 7 and bins, inasmuch as the raw materials at Sayreville 8 in main were received in bulk, rather than in bag 9 form. 10 Respirators were available of the same type 11 at Sayreville as had been made available at Berlin. 12 Q With respect to the process for 13 manufacturing pipecovering which you observed at 14 Sayreville, to what extent did that differ from the 15 process for producing the Kaylo block there, if it 16 did? 17 A Pipecovering molding operations were hand 18 operated, involving hand-held hydraulic hoses to 19 transmit the slurry to the mold forms. 20 And after indurating and drying, the product 21 was stripped from those molds by hand, whereas all of 1 the block products, all of the rectangular products Page 1031 2 made at Sayreville were handled automatically by 3 equipment rather than by hand operation. 4 Q Was the finishing process for the Kaylo 5 block -- pipecovering the same as the -- similar to 6 the finishing process for the Kaylo block? 7 A Similar in that the molded pieces were ends 8 trimmed and edge trimmed to final dimensions through 1 9 the same general types of band saw cutting equipment. 10 Different in that the block material lost a 1 11 great deal more of the product in the finishing 12 operation by virtue of the routing operation that 13 brought the material to the appropriate design 14 thickness from that as molding. . 15 Q Was the same dust control equipment in 16 operation with respect to the finishing operation for 17 the pipecovering as you have described with respect to 18 the finishing operation for the block? j 19 A Yes. ; 20 MR. SMITH: Gerry, I would like to read the 21 next question and answer. 1 BY MR. SMITH: Page 1032 2 Q And were the special kind of respirators 3 that you have mentioned, the pneumoconionic, if I 4 pronounced that correctly, were they also available 5 and used for that -- for the trimming and slitting and 6 the finishing of the pipecovering material? 7 A Yes, that very kind. 8 MR. SMITH: Thank you. 9 BY MS. TOSTANOSKI: 10 Q Now, when, if at all, did you first become 11 aware of any studies concerning a possible 12 relationship between exposure to asbestos and cancer? 13 A About a year prior to Selikoff's 14 publications of his findings on an investigation of 15 the asbestos workers from the New York and Brooklyn 16 shipyard area. 17 Q So that would have been approximately 1963? 18 A I believe that Selikoff published in '64 and 19 this would have been a year prior to that, if my dates 20 for Selikoff's publications is correct. 21 MR. SMITH: We would like to read a couple i 1 of more questions. Page 1033 j 2 BY MR. SMITH: 3 Q And what was your understanding as to the 4 results of that study that you mentioned? 5 A It is my understanding that Selikoff's paper 6 established the relationship between asbestos in thej 7 lung and at that point in time a relatively unknown or 8 little known form of cancer calledmesothelioma. 9 This was my first exposure to that term. j j 10 Q If I understand your answer correctly, you ! 11 first learned of the disease process asbestosis prior 12 to joining Ehret Magnesia in 1952? ! 13 MR. SMITH: Then there is an objection. 14 BY MR. SMITH: 15 Q When did you first learn of the disease 16 process asbestosis as distinguished from 17 mesothelioma? | 18 A I learned of the potential for asbestosis 19 while I was with Owens-Illinois. 20 MR. SMITH: Page 76. 21 BY MR. SMITH: Page 1034 1 Q Mr. McAllister, did you everobserve the 2 installation of thermal insulation material? 3 A Many times. 4 Q Where did you observe that? 5 A During the construction of theSayreville 6 plant for Owens-Illinois, during the modification of 7 the Valley Forge plant of Ehret Magnesia, and in many, 8 many field trips and construction sites since then. 9 Q Have you ever observed the cutting of 10 pipecovering on a jobsite? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Is that part of the normal use of the 13 product? 14 A Yes. 15 MR. SMITH: Page 98. 16 MS. TOSTANOSKI: This is the first question, 17 Your Honor, that I had an objection to. 18 THE COURT: Overruled. 19 BY MR. SMITH: 20 Q Isn't it a fact that your opinion as to the 21 potential hazards of asbestos insofar as it came from 1 the literature, came from trade journals rather than Page 1035 2 from medical journals? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Isn't it also true that during the period 5 prior to Dr. Selikoff's report, you had never heard of 6 a report called the Fleischer-Drinker report? 7 A That is correct. 8 MR. SMITH: Page 195, please. 9 BY MR. SMITH: 10 Q With respect to the use ofthe term 11 potential, or the health hazard related to asbestos - 12 A Yes. 13 Q -- are you merely referring to the specific 14 work area or the plant area of which your experiences 15 were involved? 16 MS. TOSTANOSKI: Objection. 17 THE COURT: Overruled. 18 A A potential hazard of asbestosis is not 19 geographically limited. 20 Q Are you talking about finished products? 21 A I am talking aboutairborneasbestos. It 1 knows no boundaries. Page 1036 2 If it is, in fact, airborne asbestos, the 3 potential hazard for asbestosis is wherever it is. 4 BY MS. TOSTANOSKI: 5 Q Could you describe briefly bearing in mind 6 the hour of the day the reason why one used asbestos 7 fibers in hydrous calcium silicates? 8 A The insulation products were subject to 9 physical damage breaking, cracking. 10 Asbestos was used as a reinforcing medium in 11 the formulation of calcium silicate, and 85 percent 12 magnesium. 13 And it had superior properties in that 14 regard, in that it resisted face change to extremely 15 high temperatures. 16 Q And based upon your rather extensive 17 experience at least during the 1950s, I take it there 18 was an absence of a satisfactorily commercially 19 feasible alternative to asbestos fibers at least to 20 the high temperature insulation? 21 A That is correct, to the best of my 1 knowledge. Page 1037 . 2 Q You were familiar with the raw materials end 3 of the production of high temperature insulation for a 4 considerable amount of time. 5 Is it correct that as among the raw 6 materials asbestos was relatively expensive? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And, in fact, as even appears on Keene 9 Exhibit 14 which is your partially completed report, 10 it is correct, isn't it, that Owens-Illinois had tried 11 without success both to use glass fiber and a gas as a 12 substitute for asbestos fibers? 13 A As well as cotton linter, 1-i-n-t-e-r, corn 14 stalks, paper pulp, yes. 15 Q And regrettably, none of them worked 16 satisfactorily as well as asbestos fibers did at that 17 time? 18 A That is correct. And if I may digress 19 briefly, the original formulation for 85 percent 20 magnesia was developed in the late 1800s using silk as 21 a reinforcement fiber. Page 1038 1 It was not until that silk was replaced with 2 asbestos that 85 percent magnesia was a commercially 3 acceptable product for use at temperatures above 200 4 degrees Fahrenheit. 5 Q In the period roughly 1947 to 1948 you were 6 in quality control, involved in product development of 7 hydrous calcium silicate for Owens-Illinois? 8 A That is correct. 9 Q At the Sayreville plant, the pipeinsulation | 10 manufacturing which you described was just prior to 11 the plant shutdown in 1952 and was rather limited in 12 time and amount? 13 A Correct. 14 Q In addition to its having certain high 15 temperature properties hydrous calcium silicate, which 16 you indeed, helped to develop, at least at AEM was 17 relatively less friable than some of the other 18 asbestos insulation materials which had been earlier 19 in use, such as 85 percent mag. 20 A Yes. ; 21 Q Sometime around 1958 you became familiar 1 with a concept called the threshold limit value? Page 1039 2 A I was familiar with that term as applied to 3 other hazardous chemicals. 4 Q Right. 5 A Prior to 1958. 6 Q And in 1958, and I apologize because you had 7 corrected me earlier, you became familiar with it as 8 applied to asbestos particles? 9 A I became aware that a threshold limit value 10 had been established by someone for asbestos fibers 11 specifically. 12 Q And it was that TLV was then regarded as a 13 yardstick for a safe level of exposure; is that 14 correct? 15 A That is implicit in the term. 16 MS. TOSTANOSKI: Skip to 207. 17 MR. SMITH: It is 208. 18 MS. TOSTANOSKI: 208. 19 BY MS. TOSTANOSKI: 20 Q During the time you were employed by Owens- 21 Illinois, is it correct that you don't have any Page 1040 1 recollection of any dust-related health problems among 2 the employees? 3 A At the time that I was employed by Owens4 Illinois, that is correct. 5 Q During that period of employment, if you 6 could, would you describe or characterize the 7 practices of Owens-Illinois with respect to the health 8 and safety of their workers? 9 A Owens-Illinois is a glass manufacturer who 10 was extremely cognizant of the hazards of silicosis. 11 Their company policy and practices in 12 relation to reducing exposure to silicosis hazards 13 throughout their entire corporate structure was quite 14 good and that applied to the Berlin plant and the 15 Sayreville plant as well as their glass plant. 16 MR. SMITH: That concludes the reading of 17 the deposition, Your Honor. 18 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 19 MR. IGNATOWSKI: Your Honor, at this time we 20 have about seven or eight Owens-Illinois documents 21 that we want to finish up. 1 Mr. Smith and I will do that. Page 1041 2 (Whereupon, the documents were published to 3 the jury via the overhead projector.) 4 MR. IGNATOWSKI: Mr. Smith, is this the 5 corrected version? 6 MR. SMITH: It is. 7 MR. IGNATOWSKI: Your Honor, this is the 8 document that we showed the other day that was retyped 9 that Ms. Tostanoski was unsure about. 10 We showed her a copy of the retyped version, 11 and it is now agreed that it is correct. 12 Is that correct, Ms. Tostanoski? 13 MS. TOSTANOSKI: That is correct. 14 MR. IGNATOWSKI: The interim report 15 regarding the biological activity of Kaylo dust. 16 This is our Exhibit 01-26. 17 It is to the Illinois Glass Company, Toledo, 18 Ohio, by the Saranac Laboratory, Saranac Lake, New 19 York, October 30th, 1948, submitted by Dr. Vorwald, 20 director to the Trudeau Foundation. 21 THE COURT: That is admitted in evidence. Page 1042 1 (Whereupon, Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 01-26 2 was received into evidence.) 3 PRESENTATION OF DOCUMENTS 4 MR. IGNATOWSKI: The laboratory has 5 recently completed a large amount of work with 6 asbestos, which has been reported to certain other 7 supporting companies, but not as yet published. 8 The following discussion of the problem is 9 drawn largely from that work, and we would request 10 that those comments be considered confidential. 11 It is felt that the following information 12 may be of aid to the Owens-Illinois health department 13 in formulating a safety program which certainly is 14 necessary in view of the results of this Kaylo 15 experiment. 16 Asbestosis, both in man and animals, is a 17 chronic, slowly developing peribronchiolar fibrosis, 18 which in late stages extends from the original site of 19 localization into the surrounding alveoli. 20 Down to the last paragraph. 21 Certain investigations have indicated that a Page 1043 1 seemingly negligible proportion of fibrous asbestos is 2 sufficient to produce the characteristic reaction. 3 It was found to be impossible to break up 4 all of the fibers and about 1 percent of the air 5 suspended dust consisted of fibers. 6 The characteristic peribronchiolar fibrosis 7 developed in the exposed animals after 40 months. 8 Thus it appears that very small numbers of 9 fibers are capable of producing asbestosis, although 10 the development of the lesions is delayed. 11 The present experiment with Kaylo is also an 12 example of this fact. 13 Conclusions, page 6, number 1. Kaylo, 14 because of its content of an appreciable amount of 15 fibrous chrysotile, is capable of producing asbestosis 16 and should be handled as a hazardous industrial dust. 17 The next is our Exhibit Number Owens18 Illinois 476. It is a special hazard survey prepared 19 for Owens-Illinois Kaylo division, Berlin, New Jersey, 20 April 28th and May 2nd, 1958, by the Aetna Life 21 affiliated companies. Page 1044 1 THE COURT: It will be admitted in 2 evidence. 3 (Whereupon, Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 4 01-476 was received into evidence.) 5 MR. IGNATOWSKI: The purpose of this visit 6 was to determine the employee exposure to dust in 7 production operations. 8 Down to air sample number 3. Horizontal 9 splitting saw. Taken at the breathing level of the 10 operator separating the pieces as they came through 11 the saw. Taken between the user and the operator. 12 91.8 million particles per cubic foot of air. 13 Air sample number 4. Flatware finishing. 14 Charging end. Taken at breathing level of operator 15 feeding flatware to the trim saw. 46.3 million 16 particles per cubic foot of air. 17 Air sample number 6. Packaging. Taken at 18 the breathing level midway between the two men filling 19 boxes. 11.5 million particles per cubic foot of air. 20 Air sample number 3 -- and this is on page 3 21 -- shows a dangerously high count. Page 1045 1 In the operation here, which is the 2 splitting of the flatware on a band saw, the men 3 removing the pieces separates the two pieces, and the 4 dust is due to this handling of the ware. 5 We feel that an exhaust system should be 6 installed which will remove this excessive dust from 7 the breathing area of the man. 8 We noted that this operator was not wearing 9 a respirator. Use of a respirator for this operation 10 should be mandatory. 11 Recommendations, Owens-Illinois Kaylo 12 division, Berlin, New Jersey. 13 A. Two respirators should be provided for 14 each employee exposed to dust so that one respirator 15 can be cleaned, checked, and sterilized while the 16 other is being used. 17 D. Respirators should be worn in all 18 dust-producing areas which include takeoff at the 19 splitter, charging at the flatware line, unloading 20 boxcars, molded stripping, between rubbers on flatware 21 line and packaging of flatware. Page 1046 1 MS. TOSTANOSKI: Mr. Ignatowski, could you 2 go back and just read the introduction to number one? 3 MR. IGNATOWSKI: Right here? 4 MS. TOSTANOSKI: Yes. 5 MR. IGNATOWSKI: Number one. A review 6 should be made of the present respirator program in 7 order to bring it up to Owens-Illinois standards and 8 should include the following. 9 Is there anything else there, Ms. 10 Tostanoski? 11 MS. TOSTANOSKI: The only thing I had was in 12 the page before that which you probably don't have, 13 the last page of the report where it is signed. 14 MR. SMITH: Yes. I might have it. Hold 15 on. 16 MR. IGNATOWSKI: Which portion? 17 MS. TOSTANOSKI: The second to the last 18 paragraph 19 MR. IGNATOWSKI: Right here? 20 MS. TOSTANOSKI: Yes. 21 MR. IGNATOWSKI: In discussing the X-ray 1 program, we find that production workers exposed to Page 1047 2 dust are given X-rays once a year and for all other 3 employees once every two years. 4 X-rays are sent to Dr. Trido at Saranac Lab 5 for interpretation. There has been no reported cases 6 of either silicosis or asbestosis at this plant. J.M 7 Robinson. 8 MS. TOSTANOSKI: Thank you. 9 MR. IGNATOWSKI: You are welcome. 10 The next is Exhibit Number 01-1065, Saranac 11 symposium, 6th, Saranac Lake, New York, 1947. 12 It is edited by Dr. Arthur J. Vorwald. 13 Pneumoconiosis. Leroy U. Gardner, Memorial Volume. 14 On page 595, it indicates Mr. Willis G. 15 Hazard of Owens-Illinois Glass Company, Toledo, Ohio, 16 as one of the participants in the 6th Saranac 17 symposium. 18 THE COURT: It will be admitted into 19 evidence. 20 (Whereupon, Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 21 01-1065 was received into evidence.) 1 MR. IGNATOWSKI: On page 569. Page 1048 2 Maximum limits are prescribed for a great 3 variety of materials which -- with which I have no 4 familiarity, but it is my -- may I move up there, Your 5 Honor? 6 THE COURT: You may. 7 MR. IGNATOWSKI: I am having problems 8 reading this one. 9 But it is my earnest hope that these limits 10 have been arrived at on the basis of a better factual 11 and scientific background than exists in the case of 12 asbestos. 13 So far as I have ever been able to 14 ascertain, no one can state with certainty what is the 15 maximum allowable limit for asbestos dust. 16 I am certain no study has been made 17 specifically directed toward ascertaining this figure, 18 and I question whether there exists sufficient data 19 correlating the disease to the degree of exposure to 20 warrant any determination that will even approximate 21 accuracy. Page 1049 1 That was presented by Mr. Vandiver Brown. I ! 2 just wanted that to be clear for the record from that j 3 document. 4 MR. SMITH: I didn't put this on the j 5 overhead, the sign-in sheet for the 7th Saranac 1 6 symposium. 7 MR. IGNATOWSKI: That is our Exhibit 1085, i 8 7th Saranac symposium, September 24th, 1952, at the j 9 Saranac Laboratory, Edward L. Trudeau Foundation, j 10 Saranac, New York. j 11 THE COURT: It will be admitted into j 12 evidence. j 13 (Whereupon, Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 1085 | 14 was received into evidence.) j 15 MR. SMITH: Here is the sign-in sheet for 16 the participants of the symposium. I didn't put it on 17 the overhead, but Mr. Hazard attended for i 18 Owens-Illinois, and Mr. Ames, whose deposition we read ' 19 last week, attended for OCF. j 20 MR. IGNATOWSKI: 9 a.m. to 1 p.m. and this \ 21 is on page 334, pneumoconiosis and pulmonary cancer, j 1 chairman, Dr. Rhodes. Discussion led by E.R.A. Page 1050 2 Merewether. 3 In 1948 I made a note of the deaths from 4 asbestosis, asbestosis with tuberculosis and either of 5 these with also cancer of the lung, recorded in the 6 United Kingdom from 1924 to 1947. 7 I have now brought these figures up to 8 date. 9 Our latest figures are recorded deaths from 10 asbestosis, asbestosis with tuberculosis, or either 11 complicated with cancer of the lung, with cancer, are 12 306. 13 I am excluding 10 of these where there is 14 also cancer of sites other than the lungs. 15 Our net figures are, therefore, 296 deaths 16 and of these 48 or 16.2 percent were associated with 17 cancer of the lung. 18 This shows an increase from a 13.2 percent 19 disclosed by our earlier figures. This means that, as 20 more deaths from asbestosis come to hand, the 21 cumulative percentage of deaths with complicating 1 cancer of the lung is rising rather than falling. Page 1051 2 MS. TOSTANOSKI: I want to continue 3 briefly. 4 Now, where do we go from here? Are those 5 figures sufficient to indicate a causal relationship 6 between the retention of asbestos dust in the lungs 7 and subsequent cancer of the lung? 8 That is it. 9 MR. IGNATOWSKI: The small numbers certainly 10 dictate caution. 11 Nevertheless, they represent the great 12 majority of the deaths from asbestosis which have 13 occurred in the United Kingdom during the past quarter 14 of a century. 15 Anything else from that, Ms. Tostanoski? 16 MS. TOSTANOSKI: No. 17 MR. SMITH: Start on the first full 18 paragraph. 19 MR. IGNATOWSKI: Regarding these cancer 20 cases, the mean age of death I said was 53.4 years. 21 Now, the occupations involved are somewhat Page 1052 1 interesting. They are always different, as you know, 2 because sometimes two occupations carried out in the 3 same room with different dust exposures or with other 4 different factors, but it is a little interesting to 5 see that the majority of these 48 cases, that the more 6 dusty the process, of course, it is most fallacious, 7 but still to watch with care, for instance, weaving. 8 Weaving is notoriously dusty. One case 9 there with 10 of these cancer lung cases. One case 10 also associated with carding and spinning that the man 11 had done and one case mixing and sorting, 12 disintegrating and mixing, either -- well, eight pipe 13 and boiler coverers, including mixing, seven, in 14 mattress making, six, and all the rest are below that 15 and all of those are dusty jobs. 16 MS. TOSTANOSKI: Continuing with the next 17 couple of sentences. 18 MR. IGNATOWSKI: Well, what, then, is the 19 etiological factor, if any here? And I would be most 20 grateful for your views. 21 MS. TOSTANOSKI: That is fine. 1 THE COURT: Is that it? Page 1053 2 MR. SMITH: Yes. 3 MR. IGNATOWSKI: That is the end of the 4 documents. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 (Whereupon, the documents were removed from 7 the screen of the overhead projector.) 8 THE COURT: Next, please. 9 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honor. 10 At this time we would like to read another 11 deposition. Let me get organized here. 12 This is the deposition of John Thomas, and I 13 will hand Your Honor a copy. 14 THE COURT: Mr. Smith will be doing the 15 questions and Mr. Ignatowski the answers. 16 MR. IGNATOWSKI: Yes, sir. 17 THE COURT: And Mr. McGowan, do you have any 18 designations ? 19 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, I do, Your Honor. 20 THE COURT: All right. You will do your 21 designations. 1 MR. McGOWAN: Yes. Page 1054 2 THE COURT: Mr. Williams, do you have 3 designations? 4 MR. WILLIAMS: No, Your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Ms. Tostanoski? 6 MS. TOSTANOSKI: No, sir. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. SMITH: With the Court's permission, 9 Your Honor, we would like to give the jury a copy of 10 the documents that are referenced by Mr. Thomas in his 11 deposition. 12 THE COURT: Please. 13 MR. SMITH: We have individual folders for 14 each of the jurors. 15 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, don't open 16 those until a reference is made to those specific 17 items during the course of the examination. 18 Obviously, with your notes -- leave those 19 with your notes on your seats as you leave the 20 courtroom. Don't take them out of the courtroom. 21 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honor.