Document zdzJjNjyad8oO4pNGR9z7n15B

Ht 5o~xd Sajj a Jj; A, 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF MILWAUKEE COUNTY STATE OF WISCONSIN STROH DIE CASTING COMPANY, Plaintiff, vs. MONSANTO COMPANY, Defendant. ) ) ) ) ) Case No. 639887 ) ) ) ) DEPOSITION OF JAMES R. SAVAGE Taken on behalf of Plaintiff August 11, 1988 8l8 (Relive Octree! ofutle 462 gR\. oRouts, ^Yyitssoun 63WI (^R^epoAing, C^nc. oflenolype SReporier, (314) 621-4790 <Rf.RR.of. RfC~L Q%. 43-1283803 HARTOLDMONO010395 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF MILWAUKEE COUNTY STATE OF WISCONSIN STROH DIE CASTING COMPANY, Plaintiff, vs. MONSANTO COMPANY, Defendant. ) > ) > ) > ) ) ) Casa No.639887 EXHIBITS Plaintiff1s Deposition Exhibit Savage No. 1 Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Savage No, 2 gage 2D 30 HARTOLDMONO010396 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF MILWAUKEE COUNTY STATE OF WISCONSIN STROH DIE CASTING COMPANY, Plaintiff, vs MONSANTO COMPANY, Defendant. > ) > > ) > ) Casa No.639887 DEPOSITION OF JAMES R. SAVAGE, produced, sworn and examined on behalf of Plaintiff, August 11, 1988, between the hours of eight o'clock in the forenoon and five o'clock in the afternoon of that day, at the Paul Brown Building, 818 Olive Street, St. Louis, Missouri 63101, before KATHRYN T. O'NEILL, a Registered Professional Reporter and a Notary Public within and for the State of Missouri. APPEARANCES The Plaintiff was represented by Mr, Donald II. Carlson and Mr. John R. Pendergast, Jr. of the law firm of Messrs. Riordan, Crivello, Carlson & Mentkowski, 710 North Plankinton Avenue, Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53203 . The Defendant was represented by Mr. James H. Schink of the law firm of Messrs Kirkland & Ellis, 200 East Randolph Drive, Chicago, Illinois 60601. HARTOLDMONO010397 Obraputer Aided Transcription by XscrlETe "4 1 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 2 between Counsel for the Plaintiff and Counsel for the 3 Defendant, that this deposition may be taken in shorthand 4 by KATHRYN T. O'NEILL, a Registered Professional Reporter 5 and Notary Public, and afterwards transcribed into 6 typewriting, and signed by the Witness. 1 8 o-O-o 9 10 JAMES R. SAVAGE, 11 of lawful age, being produced, sworn, and examined on the 12 part of the Plaintiff, deposes and says: 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION 14 QUESTIONS BY MR. PENDERGAST: 15 Q. Could you please state your full name for the 16 record, and spell your last name. 17 A. James Richard Savage, S-a-v-a-g-e. 18 Q. And what is your current residence address? 19 A. 1461 Oak Bluff Lane, Kirkwood, Missouri. 20 Q. Where are you currently employed? 21 A. Monsanto Company in St. Louis. 22 Q. And what is your current position? 23 A. Director, technology licensing and 24 acquisition. Q. And what are your job responsibilities? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010398 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscrlb T 1 A* I'm involved in the transfer of technology 2 from Monsanto to other companies and vice versa. 3 Q. For example, what kind of technologies are we 4 talking about? 5 A. In general, technology to chemical processes 6 and products. t Q. And what entity or persons are you 8 transferring this kind of information to? 9 A. Other companies, usually in other countries. 10 Q. You license processes developed by Monsanto 11 to other countries -- 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. -- or companies in other countries? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. How long have youbeen doing that? 16 A. Ten years. 17 0* Have your job responsibilities changed at all 18 in the last 10 years? 19 A. The company has been reorganized, so I've had 20 responsibility for different sets of products and 21 technologies, but the basic duties have been about the 22 same. 23 Q. When was the company reorganized, so to 24 speak? 25 A. It's been reorganized several times, most ------------------------------------ PfiRRY REPORTTUG.7rEWTE----------------------------------HARTOLDMONO010399 tToapulTer Aided Transcription by Xscribe 1 recently about two years ago. 2 Q. What was the nature of the reorganization? 3 A. It was a major restructuring of the company, 4 which included selling off some businesses. 5 Q. Did Monsanto decide to get out of some 6 markets? Was that the idea at that time? 1 A. Well, we sold an entire plant in Texas, which 8 included some heavy petrochemicals, and we got out of 9 those businesses. 10 Q. Other than petrochemicals, were there other 11 areas that Monsanto got out of? 12 A. Oh, sure. I couldn't name them all. The 13 company has been considerably changed. 14 Q. As part of that reorganization, did Monsanto 15 shift its emphasis into a certain kind of product line or 16 types of products? 17 A. Yes. I think in the announcement it was 18 emphasized that we wanted to make fewer commodities which 19 were cyclic in nature and emphasize specialty kinds of 20 products more. 21 Q. All right. Between 1978 and the present, 22 were there any other -- strike that. During this last 23 reorganisation, were the departments themselves, the basic 24 departments of Monsanto, changed? 25 A. Yes. The organizational unit that I'm in PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010400 Computer AidedTranscriptiorTTTy iscrTbe 7 1 now $ the Monsanto Chemical Company was formed from some 2 previous divisions. 3 0* All right. Prior to that and subsequent to 4 1978# were there some other major reorganisations at 5 Monsanto? 6 A. Yes. We have reorganised enough different f times that I don't think I could reconstruct those for S you. We go through some kind of reorganization every 9 three or four years, I would say. 10 Q. All right. Approximately in 1978, you took 11 your present position? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. Correct? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. What did you do prior to that? 16 A. I was in manufacturing before that. I was 17 called a manufacturing manager. 18 Q. Have you been in St. Louis for the last 10 19 years? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Where were you a manufacturing manager? 22 A. At the general office. 23 Q. And what were your duties? 24 A. Manufacturing manager was responsible to a 25 certain business group for organizing the production of ------------------------------------ PERRY RBPtfSTOTG..SERVICE ' HARTOLDMONO010401 XTOffipffEer Aided Tran script ion"~by XscrIbe W 1 the products of that business group and being sure that 2 the products were made on schedule. 3 Q. Which business group were you affiliated 4 with? 5 A. Specialty products business group. 6 Q. Which consisted of what products? 7 A. The range of products was not exactly the 8 same through the whole existence of that group, but in 9 general, it included functional fluids such as heat 10 transfer fluids, dielectric fluids, hydraulic fluids. We 11 also made paper chemicals. 12 Q. For how long did you hold the position as 13 manufacturing manager? 14 A. About eight years, starting in 1970. 15 Q. As manufacturing manager, who were your 16 direct subordinates? 17 A. It was, despite the title, more of a staff 18 than my responsibility. At each plant there was a 19 manufacturing superintendent who would be responsible for 20 the production of the products that I was responsible for, 21 but his formal boss would be the plant manager, and I 22 would have what we call a dotted line relationship to each 23 of these people. 24 Q. Did you have a direct relationship with the 25 plant managers? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010402 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe 1 A. No. 2 Q. What were you doing prior to 1970? 3 A. I was at the Queeny plant in St. Louis. I 4 was general superintendent of technical services and 5 laboratory. 6 Q. And what did your job duties entail? 7 A. The technicalservices department was agroup 8 of about 80 technical people, engineers and technicians. 9 Those engineers did improvement work on the various 10 production processes at the plant. The laboratory was 11 mostly an analytical laboratory that was responsible for 12 the quality of the products, analyzing of the quality of 13 the products made in the plant. We also had a small 14 research section. 15 Q. How long did you hold that position? 16 A. About three years. 17 Q. Dating back to about 1967? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. What did you do prior to that? 20 A. Prior to that I was in the Irummrichplant in 21 Sauget. Illinois. I was a technical services 22 superintendent in a department similar to the one that I 23 later headed at the Queeny Plant. I had a group of about 10 engineers and one draftsman. I think. Our job was to do improvement work on a set of products at the Krummrich .HEVORTTNG.. SERVICE------------------------------------- HARTOLDMONO010403 Computer Aided Transcription Dy Xscrlbe TU 1 plant* 2 Q. When did you take on that job? 3 A. Formally, probably about 1965. I was in that 4 department, though, earlier than that informally doing the 5 same job. 6 Q. Since when? 7 A. About 1963. 8 0. What had you been doing prior to that? 9 A. Prior to that I was at the Anniston plant in 10 Anniston, Alabama. 11 Q. What was yourpositionthere? 12 A. My last twoyears there I was a production 13 supervisor. 14 Q. What were your job responsibilities? 15 A. For the first of those two years, I 16 supervised the chlorine department. The second of those 17 two years I continued to supervise the chlorine department 10 and, also, the Aroclor department. 19 Q. How about prior to 1961? 20 A. For about three years before that, I was at 21 the Anniston plant working as a technical services 22 engineer in the parathion department. 23 Q. ffhats parathion? 24 A. Parathion is an insecticide. 25 Q, Is that a trade name? PERRY reporting service HARTOLDMONO010404 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscrioe IT 1 A. Ho. It's a generic name. 2 Q. That would take us back to about 1958? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. What were you doing prior to that? 5 A. Prior to that I was at the Queeny plant here 6 in St. Louis as a technical services engineer. t Q. And what were your job responsibilities? 8 A. Doing improvement work on certain processes. 9 Q. What kind of processes? 10 A. Primarily salicylic acid in aspirin, some 11 related products. 12 G. And when did you begin that work? 13 A. In February, 1957, that was when Ijoined the 14 company. 15 Q. What had you been doing prior to that? 16 A. I graduated in engineering in January, 1957. 17 I was in school before that. 18 Q, What degree did you receive in 57? 19 A. B.S. in chemical engineering. 20 Q. From what school? 21 A. University of Wisconsin. 22 Q. Good school. When you first came on with 23 Monsanto in 1957, you were working only with aspirin and 24 those type products? 25 A. Well, I was part of a group which had ------------------------------------ FERRY..1BFORTTHG """B ERVT'CE----------------------------- --HARTOLDMONO010405 Transputer 7fiaeia~Transcription by Xscribe 1 responsibility for a number of different products in the 2 plant, and I was assigned probably in the course of that 3 year to five or six different departments to work on 4 various small problems, 5 Q. Okay. During those two years at Queeny, did 6 you become involved with any processes where ? PCB-containing products were being manufactured or used to 8 your knowledge? 9 A. No. It was one year, either '57 to early 10 58, but -- 11 Q. Did you have any contact with any chemicals 12 or products which you understood to be hazardous 13 chemicals? 14 A. Well, yes. Host industrial chemicals are 15 generally considered hazardous from the standpoint that 16 they have to be handled according to certain good 17 practices. 18 Q. And which chemicals fell into that category 19 back in 1957, that you worked with? 20 A. I don't know that I can enumerate all of 21 them, but I can certainly think of a fewt phenol, caustic 22 soda, sulfuric acid, methanol, 23 Q. Bow was the -- is itphenol? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. Is that p-h-e-n-o-1? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010406 Computer Aided Transcription by^XscrTbe 13 1 A. Right. 2 Q. How was that used at the Queeny plant in 3 1957? 4 A. / I'm sure it was used in several processes. 5 The one that I was involved in was salicylic acid. It's 6 one of the raw materials. 7 Q. As technical service engineer, you were 8 involved directly in production? 9 A. Well, production was the direct 10 responsibility of a production organization. What we did 11 was to provide assistance to them and do small projects to 12 make improvements in the operation. 13 Q. Were you involved at all in making 14 improvements in systems for waste disposal? 15 A. No, not during that time. 16 Q. Okay. At the Queeny plant in 1957, '58, do 17 you know what kind of system was in use with respect to 18 waste disposal in the areas you worked? 19 MR. SCHINKs Excuse me. You said '57, '58, 20 at Anniston? 21 MR. PENDERGASTt No, at Queeny. 22 A, I had no direct involvement with waste 23 treatment systems at that time. That was the . 24 responsibility of a specialist group. I don't recall what 25 the practices were at that time. mi-- no-- 1.1. n------ HARTOLDMONO010407 computer Aided Transcription Dy XscrTbe XT 1 Q. (BY MR. PENDERGAST) All right. In 1958, you 2 moved to the Anniston plant? is that correct? 3 A. Right, 4 Q. And you became production supervisor? 5 A. No, When I first arrived there, I had the 6 same title of technical services engineer. ? Q, Okay. Was that seen as a promotion? 8 A. No, I went down there as part of a start-up 9 of the parathion department. 10 Q, In 1958, Monsanto was starting production of 11 parathion insecticide? 12 A. We were starting up a new unit at Anniston. 13 Q. Okay. And were you, during the three years 14 that you were a technical services engineer down there, 15 were you only working with the parathion? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. In connection with your work with the 18 insecticide, what was expected of you on a day-to-day 19 basis? 20 A. Well, part it was troubleshooting, since it 21 was a new operation, and there were minor bugs to be 22 worked out. Part of it was to implement small improvement 23 projects to increase capacity or improve more raw material 24 consumption. 25 Q. What were the raw materials used in that PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010408 Computer Aided transcription by Xscribe 1 process? 2 A. Phosphorus pentasulphi.de, ethanol, methanol, 3 chlorine, paranitrophenol, soda ash, 4 Q. And In what were these raw materials combined 5 to form the finished product? 6 A. It was a very complicated process. Methanol 7 was reacted with phosphorus pentasulphide. That a intermediate then was chlorinated. The resulting 9 intermediate from the chlorination was distilled. A 10 separate stream soda ash was reacted with paranitrophenol. 11 Those two intermediates then were combined. The finished 12 product was then purified and dropped. 13 Q. Was there any waste by-product from that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What was done with the waste by-product? 16 A. There were two different streams. One was an 17 organic residue. That stream was incinerated at the 18 plant. The other stream was aqueous waste which went 19 through an activated sludge treatment plant inside our 20 plant boundary, and then was discharged to the city sewer, 21 where it was treated again at a city plant. 22 Q. While you were at Anniston in those first 23 three years, was the discharge into the municipal sewer ever monitored? A. Yes. HARTOLDMONO010409 Computer 'AiSecTTtansfcription oy^xscrine T6 1 Q. Okay. What were you looking for in there? 2 A. Well, my concerns were with the waste from 3 the parathion department, so I'm aware of what we 4 monitored in that respect, I'm not aware of what we might 5 have monitored with respect to other operations. 6 Q* Okay. A. In the case of the parathion department, 8 there were certain by-products which we tracked very 9 carefully. 10 Q. What were the by-products you tracked 11 carefully? 12 A. The most identifiable one was unreactive 13 paranitrophenol, which was a yield loss from parathion. 14 That would be part of a very visible color to the waste. 15 That served as a good indicator of how good a job we were 16 doing in general of treating the waste. 17 Q. What was the fear in letting that get out? 18 A. The concern was that the city treatment 19 plant, which was relatively new, was marginal in capacity, 20 and if we allowed too much oxygen demand in the waste that 21 we put in the sewers, then it would overload the city 22 plant, and then they would have trouble getting good 23 treatment of the domestic waste. 24 Q. Was there any other reason you were concerned 25 with the waste from the parathion formulation? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010410 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe IT 1 A. We analyzed for parathion itselfr since that 2 was very toxic material, but never had any serious 3 discharge of parathion. 4 Q. What were you using to test for the presence 5 of parathion in the waste water? 6 A, I don't know* Samples were taken of the 7 waste water# and the laboratory had specialized methods, 8 but I'm not not a specialist in that subject myself. 9 Q* Would it be fair to say during that three 10 years your job had more to do with more efficient 11 utilization of raw materials and greater efficiency in the 12 system? 13 A. Yes. I would say that was the biggest task 14 we had at the time. 15 Q. You were still kind of refining that system? 16 Is that part of it? 17 A. Yes, although the work on controlling 18 effluent and the work of improving were really the same, 19 because if your raw material efficiency was better, then 20 the waste load was small. 21 Q. Okay. During those first three years were 22 you involved at all with any projects or processes that 23 used or created any PCB-containing materials? 24 A. NO. 25 Q. Were you familiar with PCBs in the late j>gRRy REPORTING 'SERVICE------------------------------------HARTOLDMON0010411 Computer Aided Transcr iptioif~5y Xscribe T 1 1950*8? 2 A. Well, first, that expression "PCB" was not in 3 use at the time, but I was casually familiar with the 4 chlorinated biphenyl products that were made on the other 5 side of the plant. 6 Q. Okay. At that time did you understand '7 anything about the particular properties of the 8 chlorinated byphenyls? 9 A. No. 10 Q. At some point in time you discontinued your 11 work on the parathion and shifted into production 12 supervision; is that correct? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. What precipitated that? 15 A, That was considered a promotion. 16 Q. Okay. Did the parathion work continue after 17 that? 13 A. Yes, There were some other engineers that 19 would have taken that. 20 Q. Is parathion still manufactured? 21 A. No. It was shut down sometime in the last 22 couple of years. 23 Q. Do you know what the reasoning for the 24 shutdown waB? 25 A. I don't know. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMON0010412 Computer Aided Transcription by Ascribe T? 1 Q. While in production, what were your ~ as 2 production supervisor at Anniston, what were your job 3 responsibilities? 4 A. Well, production supervisor is responsible 5 for operating a certain production unit responsible for 6 labor relations, supervising a crew of workers, 7 responsible for really all aspects of that operation, 8 production, raw material consumption, safety of the 9 workers, production control. 10 Q. What did your working with chlorine, what did 11 the chlorine department do? 12 A. Chlorine department brought in salt or 13 potassium chloride as a raw material, and using 14 electricity, produced chlorine and caustic soda from those 15 raw materials, or caustic potash in the case of potassium IS chloride raw material. 17 Q. Were polychlorinated biphenyls used in any of IB the processes or created by any of the processes which you 19 were involved in in Anniston prior to 1963? 20 A. Prior to when? 21 Q. 1963 is when you said you left there. 22 A. Tes. After I had supervised the chlorine 23 department for one year, then the responsibility for the 24 Aroclor department was added to my responsibility. I 25 continued to run the chlorine plant, but also the Aroclor -------------------------------------- pgggy.REPORTING' SERVICE------------------------------------HARTOLDMON0010413 "Computer AXaea 'franscfl.ption by Xscribe 2TT 1 department. I continued that for about a year. 2 Q. Was one of the primary purposes for the 3 chlorine production for aid in the production of the 4 Aroclors? 5 A. Yes. The Aroclor department used essentially 6 all of the chlorine that we made. 7 Q. At that time when you first became involved 8 with the Aroclors. were you provided with -- what kind of 9 information were you provided with concerning the 10 Aroclors? 11 A. Well. I had to learn the process, which meant 12 chlorinating, all the important parameters having to do 13 with the proper operation of the unit. I was provided 14 with various documents describing the operation. 15 Q. Were you given any information regarding the 16 toxic properties of the products? 17 A. Certainly. Part of the basic documentation 15 for each of our processes included information about any 19 hazardous properties of raw materials of unfinished goods. 20 Q. And do you recall at all when you first 21 became involved with Aroclors, what you were told their 22 particular hazardous qualities were? 23 A. I can't recall any detail. We would have 24 usually a one-page sheet on each product describing its 25 general properties and any special precautions that would PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMON0010414 Computer Aided Transcr iptlon~~5y Xscribe 1 be associated with it, but as to specific content of the 2 documents for those products at that time, I couldn't tell 3 you. 4 Q. Do you remember at that time whether, when 5 you were introduced to the Aroclor production, whether the i basic message was, *This is something more dangerous than, 7 say, a lot of the other things we are working with around 8 here8? 9 A. No, I don't think so. We understood Aroclors 10 to be a fairly ordinary industrial chemical. By that I 11 mean it was not intended to be ingested, or skin contact 12 was to be avoided, generally treated with respect as any 13 chemical product would be, but I don't think we understood 14 it to be of any unusual hazard. 15 Q* Were the workers advised to take any 16 particular precautions in working with the Aroclors? 17 A. No. We would give them instructions similar 18 to what we would give them about any industrial chemical. 19 Q. At that time were you familiar with any 20 studies that had been conducted by Monsanto concerning the 21 toxicity of the Aroclors? 22 A. Only to the extent that we had these data 23 sheets on the products, so I presume that there was some work behind those, but I was not familiar with the work. Q. Okay. Did the workers take any or were the ------------------------------------ FERRY.REPORTING..SERVICE----------------------------------- HARTOLDMON0010415 computer Sided TranscrIptionH&y Xacribe 1 workers advised to take any special precautions with 2 respect to the Aroclors? 3 A. Yes. We had a regular safety training 4 routine for every departmentf and so we did have such a 5 routine for the Aroclor department, and we would instruct 6 the workers in proper practices to protect themselves. -J The most severe routine haiard of that operation was just 8 that it was a very hot process, and so we would instruct 9 them about protecting themselves from burns. 10 Q. Were the workers told about the risk of 11 inhalation of fumes from that process? 12 A. Yes. We would advise them to avoid exposure 13 to fumes, and in situations where there was any 14 possibility of that, we provided fume hoods and whatever 15 apparatus was required so that it was not necessary for 16 them to be exposed to fumes. 17 Q. Were they also advised of the potential for 18 development of what has been termed chloracne when coming 19 into contact with the Aroclors? 20 A. No. I don't think that we had any evidence 21 at the time that chloracne was associated with Aroclor. 22 Q Were the workers told anything in particular 23 about disposal of clothing which had come in contact with 24 Aroclors? 25 A. No. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMON0010416 Computer Aided Transcription Dy"Xscrxbe 2T 1 q. in that process did workers' clothes become 2 covered with these substancesf or was it kind of a hands 3 off process? 4 A. Well, like any chemical process, it was 5 certainly a closed system. The only place that the 6 product was used, would be exposed in the open, would be 7 in the drumming operation or sampling, something like 8 that. Perhaps they would actually get a little on their 9 clothing, but it wasn't a major issue. 10 Q. Okay. Did you also supervise as production 11 supervisor the drumming of the Aroclors? 12 A. Yes. That was part of the operation. 13 Q. How was that done? 14 A. I really don't recall the details. I have 15 worked in a lot of different processes, many of which had 16 drumming operations, and I don't remember anything special 17 about that one. 18 Q. Generally then can you describe to me how 19 that happens? 20 MR. SCHINKt You mean generally in the 21 chemical plant how a product is drummed? 22 MR. PENDERGASTi Well, he said he didn't 23 remember anything special about this one. 24 So I guess generally, what was your recollection 25 what was done? HARTOLDMON0010417 Compu ter Ai ded Tran sc r i i on T)y "ICFeTIW 1 A. Small scale drumming operations are usually 2 done in a more or less manual way. There's usually some 3 kind of roller or conveyor that rolls away the empty drum, 4 some kind of flexible line which allows filling of the 5 drum to a certain weight, and then it's closed up with a 6 wrench and rolled away. 7 Q. In the drumming area, did the floor of that 8 area become damp with, I guess, excess Aroclor fluid that 9 night have gotten on the floor? 10 A. I don't remember. 11 Q. Okay. To your knowledge -- strike that. 12 Briefly explain to me how the Aroclors were produced. 13 A. The term "polychlorinated biphenyls" almost 14 describes the process. The chlorination is a reaction 15 between biphenyl and chlorine. A catalyst is used. We 16 used ferric chloride for that purpose. Chlorine gas is 17 bubbled through biphenyl in which a catalyst has been 18 dissolved. We did that in several different systems, some 19 of which were continuous. Some were batch-wise. When the 20 chlorination was completed, we would call that 21 intermediate crude Aroclor. 22 The next step was to bubble air through the crude 23 material to remove dissolved HCL, which was a by-product 24 of a reaction. After that there was a distillation step 25 in which pure Aroclor was boiled away from heavier tarry PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMON0010418 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe 15 1 material, which was also a by-product, and a distilled 2 Aroclor was then given a treatment using some kind of a 3 special clay which absorbed more impurities, and the 4 result of that was Aroclor, which could be used for the 5 various purposes it was intended for. 6 Q. All right. One of the by-products was ? hydrochloric acid? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. What was done with that? 10 A. There was a separate department for recovery 11 of hydrochloric acid. 12 Q. Was that hydrochloric acid ever tested for 13 the presence of PCBs? 14 A. Yes. That was an undesirable impurity as far 15 as the hydrochloric acid was concerned. 16 Q. In 1962, were you testing hydrochloric acid 17 for the presence of PCBs? IB A. Yes. 19 Q. Bow were youdoing that? 20 A. That was done in the analytical laboratory. 21 I don't know exactly how. 22 Q. But it was your understanding that they could 23 detect the presence of PCBs in the hydrochloric jicid? 24 A. I think at the time they were simply testing 25 for the presence of organic materials, because that was -------------------------------------- PBRRY kepootjhg' SERVICE-------------------------------------HARTOLDMON0010419 Computer Aided Transcription oy Xscnoe 1 undesirable in muriatic acid or hydrochloric acid. 2 Q. Bad they established a level of tolerance for 3 organic materials in the HCL7 4 A. I think there was a specification. 5 Q. What was done if the batch exceeded that 6 specification? 7 A. Well, normally it would not exceed that. We 8 had a system for removing organics from the hydrochloric 9 acid. If it did, we would rework it. 10 Q. All right. Now, you also referred to a tarry 11 substance that was deposited as part of the process. What 12 did that tarry substance consist of? 13 A. Pardon me? Which one? 14 Q. We might have to go back through the process. 15 A. Okay. Oh, I think we are back at the 16 distillation where the Aroclor product is distilled away 17 from a tarry residue. 18 Q. Okay. What was done with the tarry residue? 19 A. At the end of the distillation batch, the 20 tarry residue would be in the bottom of the still pot. and 21 we will drain that off to drums. 22 Q. Do you know what was in that tar? 23 A. The tar was chemically really not different 24 than the Aroclor, except that it was more highly 25 chlorinated than the part that had been distilled away _____________________ HARTOLDMONO010420 Computer Aided Transcription by~Xscribe 27 1 from it. 2 Q* And was that by-product also sold? 3 A. Some of it was. 4 Q. What product name was that sold under? 5 A. It was called Montar, and there was a number 6 I don't remember the numbers anymore, but there were ? various Montars that represented the distilled residue 8 from various Aroclors, 9 Q. Do you know how that material was used 10 ultimately? 11 A. No, I don't. 12 Q. Finally, you mentioned a clay was used as 13 part of the final process. 14 A. Right. 15 Q. How was that used again? 16 A. As an absorbent. 17 Q. And the clay was intended to absorb 18 impurities? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. Was that clay ever disposed of? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Wes that done periodically? 23 A. tvery batch was taken to a landfill. 24 Q. Was that clay ever tested for PCBs? 25 A. Well, it wouldn't be necessary. I'm sure it 'PTSRKY."ROTORTING.. service HARTOLDMONO010421 Computer Aided transcription Dy Xscrloe IB 1 was saturated with PCB. 2 Q. And that material was taken to a landfill? 3 A. Yes. 4 Go Did the Anniston plant have a landfill on the 5 property? 6 A. Yes, ? Q. Was that the landfill it wastaken to? 8 A. Yes, 9 Q. Did anybody, while youwere atAnniston, 10 prior to 1963, ever express a concern with disposing of 11 that PCB-containing material in the landfill area? 12 A. NO. 13 Q. How close was the landfill to the nearest 14 body of water? 15 A. I guess I don't know exactly. I don't 16 remember the geography that well. 17 Q. Were there any rivers or streams in the area? 18 A. There was no stream nearby. 19 0, Was the saturated clay placed inany kind of 20 containers before being taken to the landfill? 21 A. Yes. I think we put it in drums. 22 Q. At the time you were shipping the Aroclors, 23 were you also putting labeling on them? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q, Did those labels contain any kind of I PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010422 Computer Aided transcription by Xscribe Y5 1 warnings? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you remember what those warnings said? 4 A. No. 5 Q. At Anniston, were you manufacturing all the 6 Aroclors there? t A. No 8 NR. FINDERSAST8 Nark that. 9 (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Savage No, 1 10 marked for identification.] 11 Q. (BY MR. PENDERGAST) Let me show you what's 12 been marked as Savage Exhibit No. 1. Do you recognize 13 that? 14 A. Not specifically. It has the general style 15 that we used, but I couldn't tell you whether that's 16 exactly what we used at the time. 17 Q. Okay. Looking at just the way the label is 18 set up, is that the kind of format that was used in 1962, 19 1963? 20 A. I really don't remember that* 21 Q. Okay. Does the language on there after the 22 word "Caution," does that ring a bell as to what was on 23 the labels you were using? 24 A. That would be normal language for a product 25 like that. FERRY.REPORTING... SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010423 Computer Aided Transcription t>y xscnoe ' HT 1 Q. Okay. When you shipped out your Aroclor 2 products, they had the Monsanto label on them; is that i 3 correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. PBNDBRGASTi Mark that. 6 [Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Savage Ho. 2 7 marked for identification.] 8 Q. (BY MR.PENDERGAST) X show you Savage 9 Exhibit Ho. 2. Does that one strike you as any more or 10 less possible as one of the labels that might have been 11 used? 12 A. Yes. This one seams more familiar. 13 Q. That'sExhibit No. 2? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Now, back in 1962, *63, you were familiar 16 with this label. You had read it; is that correct? Let's 17 assume that. 18 A. X really can't tell you when I first saw that 19 label. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. This one is obviously older. It has an older 22 logo, and we stopped calling ourselves Monsanto Chemical 23 Company at some point. So, this is clearly older than 24 that one. 25 MR. SCHINKt The "this* you are referring to PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010424 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe IX 1 is number 1? 2 A. Number 1 is clearly older, but when it would 3 have been replaced by the other one, I don't know. 4 Q. (BY MR, PENDERGAST) Okay. Thegeneral 5 language on Exhibit No. 2, do you remember that being on 6 your drums in the early '60s, when you were at Anniston? 7 A. Z don't know whether that's what was on the 8 drums at that time or not. 9 Q. Okay. Regardless, there was some warning on 10 the drum? 11 A. Oh, sure. 12 Q. Okay. Was there anything in that warning 13 that raised suspicions in your mind as to whether you 14 should be taking that PCB-saturated clay out to that 15 landfill? 15 A. No. I don't see any connection. 17 Q. Okay. In 1963, you moved on to the Krummrlch 10 plant in Sauget, Illinois? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. And your title there wastechnical services 21 supervisor, at least became that after a while? 22 A. Technical services superintendent. 23 Q. Superintendent. Mas that also considered a 24 promotion? 25 A. Yes. TFETCRY..KBTOHTIirrTERVTCE HARTOLDMONO010425 Computer Aided Transcription-By Xacrloe T? 1 Q. And what were your job responsibilities 2 there? 3 A. I supervised a small group of engineers whose 4 job it was to do group projects in various operations of 5 the Krummrich plant, 6 Q. The Krummrich plant was also a production 1 facility for Aroclors? 8 A, Tea. That was one of the products that was 9 made there. 10 Q. Were you working with Aroclors at Krummrich? 11 A. A couple of my engineers were. 12 Q. You were not directly? 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. Did you oversee the entire technical services 15 aspect of the Krummrich plant at that time? 16 A. No. There were three others with jobs like 17 mine. 18 Q. Concerning different products? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. And what ware your products? 21 A. Chlorine, Aroclor, nitroanilines, several 22 others. 23 Q. Was theKrummrichproduction process for 24 Aroclors similar to that at Anniston? 25 A, Yes. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010426 Computer Aided Transcription^by Xscribe 33 1 Q. Basically the same system? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did the system also have ~ let me strike 4 that. Let's back up. He talked about the batching system 5 at Anniston. Here the by-products of the continuous 6 system different? 7 A. HO. 8 Q. Okay. Here the same machines used in both 9 or -- 10 A. They are very similar. 11 Q. And the by-products were disposed of in the 12 same way as with the batch system? 13 A. Yea. 14 Q. Krummrich, did the Krummrich Aroclor process 15 also have the same by-products? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Was the hydrochloric acid also sold? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Has it alsotested forPCBs? 20 A. It was tested fororganic content. 21 Q. Okay. Dp through 1967, did there come a time 22 when they decided, "He can test for PCBs," or, We're 23 going to start testing for PCBs*? 24 A. Yes, but not during the time I was at the 25 Krummrich plant. PERRY REFORTTNGr-BERVICE' HARTOLDMONO010427 Goapifter Aided Transcription by KscTlM Tf 1 Q. So it was subsequent to '67, in your mind? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q Okay. The tarry residue was still drained 4 into drums and sold as Hontar? 5 A. Yes. Q. And did theKrummrich plant also have a 7 landfill on site? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. And was thePCB-saturated clay also 10 put in drums and taken to the landfill there? 11 A. Actually, at that point it would be a matter 12 of speculation. 13 Q. You don't know? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Was the landfill at Krummrich near a body of 16 water or a stream? 17 A. I don't think I can answer that accurately, 13 because the Krummrich plant used more than one landfill. 19 One of those is near the Mississippi River, but I don't 20 know whether a specific waste went to that one. 21 Q. Okay. Was that landfill owned by Monsanto? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. At the Anniston plant, are you familiar with 24 Snow Creek? 25 A. Yes. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010428 Computer Aided TranacrTption~by Xscribe 35 1 Q. Is that near theplant? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Is it apparently not near the landfill, 4 though? 5 A. It's not too far from the landfill* In response to your previous question, I didn't think of Snow 1 Creek as a natural body of water, since it's just a very 8 small ditch, essentially. 9 Q. Okay. Does Snow Creek, is that a tributary 10 of the water system there? 11 A, I'm sure that Snow Creek eventually joins a 12 larger body of water. 13 Q. Okay. Monsanto then operated two landfills 14 somewhere around the Krunuarich plant, true? 15 A. Well, more than one. I don't know how many. 16 Q. Okay. How about at Anniston? More than one 17 landfill there that they owned? 18 A. We operated one landfill on our own property. 19 We may have used others, but I don't know. 20 Q. Krummrich, you operated one landfill on the 21 property, and then there was -- 22 A. There were others. 23 Q. There were others that were owned by 24 Monsanto, though? 25 A. I don't know that. HARTOLDMONO010429 computer Aidea Transcription by xscrlDe T 1 Q. Would it be fair to say that between e61 to 2 *67, as far as the production processes for Arodors in 3 Monsanto between the Anniston and the Krummrich plants, 4 remained fairly static? 5 A. I would say yeah, fairly static. 6 0. Okay. Was there any, to your knowledge, any 7 procedure for cleaning the areas in which the Aroclors 8 were manufactured? 9 A. There were normal housekeeping procedures for 10 those operations, yeah. 11 Q, Okay, Both the production area in Anniston 12 and Krummrich for production of PCBs were basically an 13 open air area; is that true? 14 A, No. There were buildings involved. 15 Q. Okay. I guess I was led to believe that at 16 least part of the production area had a roof over it, but 17 didn't necessarily have walls going all the way around. 13 A. That's true. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. Some was in the open. Some was inside the 21 building. 22 Q. Okay. Was it similar at both plants? 23 A. Wo. Structurally they were quite different. 24 Q. Okay. What portions of the Anniston plant 25 were outdoors? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010430 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe 37 1 A. Chlorinators at Anniston were outdoors. 2 Q. This is where the chlorine was added to the 3 biphenyl? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. Was there an accepted practical reason for 6 having that outside? t A. Outdoor construction was considered more 8 modern, I think. It was just a matter of evolution. 9 Q. What benefit was derived from the outdoor 10 construction? 11 A. Most chemical plants are built outdoors. 12 It's considered to be safer. 13 Q. Why would it be safer? 14 A. Because in the event of any accident, there's 15 less likelihood of confining a worker in a place where 16 there might be fumes or flames or some hazardous material. 17 Q. Okay. With respect to the cleaning of the 18 outdoor portion of the Anniston production area, what was 19 the procedure as far as cleaning is concerned? 20 A. Normally, it was a matter of wiping up 21 spills. If there was some kind of leak, by the time it 22 had been fixed, it would normally be some materials 23 spilled on the floor, and we would clean it up with rags 24 or scrape it up. Some of these materials would solidify 25 at ordinary temperatures, and so it's possible to simply ! ------------------------------------PERRY REPORTING.SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010431 Computer Aiaed Transcription by Xscrlbe Tff 1 scrape the material up and put it in the drum. 2 Q. Was there ever a time where the whole outside 3 facility at Anniston was hosed down or scrubbed down or 4 anything like that? Did you have a periodic cleaning like 5 that? 6 A. Yeah. That would probably be the last step 7 of cleaning up. 8 Q. Okay. Were there drains in the outdoor 9 production area? 10 A. Yes. There would be storm drains. 11 Q. Do you know where those led? 12 A. No. I don't remember. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. I just don't remember whetherthere was a 15 separate storm drain system or not. 16 Q. At that time that you were at Anniston, did 17 you have any concern whatsoever that PCB-containing 18 materials might be going down those drains and out of the 19 plant? 20 A. No. At that time we didn't consider the 21 Aroclor department had any serious pollution potential. 22 Q. Why was that? 23 A. Two reasons, one being that we couldclose 24 the material balance, which means in chemical engineering 25 terms that we could account for where the raw materials PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010432 Computer Aided Transcr iption~T>y Xscribe 39 1 had gone. The other reason is that chlorinated biphenyl 2 materials are almost completely insoluble in water, and, 3 therefore, it's unlikely that any significant amount would 4 be found in a water stream, or so it seemed at the time. 5 Q. Okay. Back to my question. Was there a time e periodically where it was time to scrub down the whole 7 production area or not? 8 A. We had periodic housekeeping inspections, and 9 the workers would make a special effort to clean up the 10 plant at that time. 11 Q. Okay. Were cleaning materials, to your 12 knowledge, used in -- ever swept off the production area 13 into the surrounding ground? 14 A. Not into the surrounding ground. We would 15 use floor dry compounds, which are kind of like sawdust or 16 kitty litter or something, to soak up a spill, but that 17 would be swept up and put in the drum. 18 Q. What about during the cleaning? 19 A. No. These are fairly sticky materials. Some 20 are solid. Some are very sticky liquids, and it was 21 necessary to literally scrape the floor to get it off if 22 there was any significant deposit. And so we scraped off 23 and swept up, put in a drum. . 24 Q. Okay. What was then done with those drums? 25 A. Those drums would go to a landfill. ------------------------------------ PERRY HEPORTTWBBSVrCE----------------------------------HARTOLDMONO010433 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe 40 1 Q. Would it go to the landfill on the Anniston 2 site? 3 A. I'm not sure. 4 Q Okay. Was the cleanup procedure pretty much 5 the same at the Krummrich plant? 6 A. As far as I know, but I was not directly 7 responsible for the manufacturing responsibility to take 8 care of housekeeping. 9 Q. Okay. As technical services superintendent, 10 were you involved at all in monitoring where the waste 11 from the plant was going? 12 A. Well, speaking of the plant in general, we 13 had some work on pollution problems at that time, but I 14 don't recall any special concern at the time about the 15 waste from the Aroclor department. 16 Q. What kind of pollution problems did you have 17 that you had to address? 18 A. That would have been liquid waste from other 19 operations. 20 Q. And where was that ending up? 21 A. Krummrich plant at the time had a very 22 complex sewer system that was interconnected, and all the 23 waste eventually would go to the Sauget Village treatment 24 plant. 25 Q. And what problems developed in connection PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010434 Computer Aided Transcription by Ascribe IT 1 with that? 2 A. The problems that I was concerned with at the 3 time were specific to one or two departments, and it 4 related to raw material consumption problems in those 5 departments, I don*t recall that the wastes, per se, were 6 causing any particular problem. 'f Q. That is, you weren't so concerned about the 8 fact that you were having this waste getting into the 9 sewer system as you were that your system, processing 10 system, wasn't being run as efficiently as it could have 11 been running? Is that what you're saying? 12 A. Well, waste problems and raw material 13 efficiency problems are really opposite sides of the same 14 coin. 15 Q. Okay. You made the statement, though, that 16 you didn't think it was so much a waste problem? 17 A, I don't recall that we had specific problems 18 with those wastes at that time. 19 0* You left the Krummrich plant in 1967? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Prior to that, do yourememberwhile being at 22 Krummrich any startling new discoveries announced 23 concerning PCBs or Aroclors? 24 A. Well, I remembersomething thatwas startling 25 to me that occurred approximately at that time, although I REPORTING SERVICE----------------------------------HARTOLDMONO010435 XTbajpufTer-'XTd@d Transcription by XscrTBe '42 1 don't know exactly when. Perhaps it was a year or so 2 later, but I remember the reading of the work of Dr. 3 Risebrough on peregrine falcons and claiming that he had 4 discovered PCBs as creating a problem with the peregrine 5 falcon. This was not something I learned through any 6 particular company channel. Zt was just something X saw 7 in technical literature. e Q. In what technical literature did you see 9 that? Do you recall? 10 A. I don't recall 11 Q. What kind of literature were you receiving 12 while you were at Krurararich? 13 A. I read a lot of different magazines. I have 14 no idea. It would have been the regular trade press 15 associated with chemical or scientific subjects. 16 Q. Okay. Do you remember -- and all I know, my 17 only reference point is the Bar Association, and I know I 18 get one from the American and one from the Wisconsin. 19 Were there some organizations you remember that you 20 received publications from? 21 A. It could very well have been a little later 22 than this particular period. I have been for a long time 23 reading magazines like "Scientific American, the journal 24 of the American Institute of Chemical Engineers, which is 25 called "Chemical Engineering Progress," "Chemical Week." PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010436 Computer Aided Transcription by~~Xscri.be 13 1 So, you know, I have no idea where I would have seen 2 something like that. 3 Q. Are you presently a member of any 4 professional associations? 5 A. Yes. I'm a member of the American Institute 6 of Chemical Engineers, the Licensing Executive Society. 7 Q, And bow long have you been a member of those 8 organizations? 9 A. I've been a member of the American Institute 10 of Chemical Engineers, I think, since I was in college. I 11 have been a member of the Licensing Executive Society for 12 about 10 years. 13 Q. Does the former organization have a regular 14 publication? 15 A. Yes. It called "Chemical Engineering 16 Progress." 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. That's the main journal. Actually, they have 19 several journals. 20 Q. In 1967, you came back to the Queeny plant? 21 A. That's right. 22 Q. And is that located here in St. Louis? 23 A. That's right. Q. And again, your title was what? A. General superintendent of technicalservices ---..................................................................................................... ........................................................................................................................................................................................................... ....................... ........... HARTOLDMONO010437 Computer Aided transcript Ion by Xscri.be vt 1 laboratory. 2 Q. What were your job responsibilities there? 3 A. I think that was covered earlier. I had a 4 group of about 80 engineers plus the analytical 5 laboratory. 6 Q. Okay. And were there ether general 7 superintendents of technical service? 8 A, No. My responsibility covered the whole 9 plant. 10 Q. Okay. So. you oversaw generally all the 11 products that were produced there then? 12 A. Technical work associated with all the 13 products, that's right. 14 Q. When you say "technical work," I just want to 15 be straight on this. Is that as distinguished from some 16 other discipline? 17 A. Each plant has a manufacturing organization, 18 production supervisor, production superintendent, 19 production general superintendents. Those people report 20 to the plant manager. I also reported to the plant 21 manager. My people would do improvement work in the 22 production departments or sometimes in the service utility 23 departments, but we were not directly responsible for 24 operating the plant. 25 Q. Was the maintenance of the plant under the PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010438 Computer Aided-Transcription by^XscFibe 1 technical services department? 2 A. No. There was a separate general 3 superintendent of maintenance. 4 Q. Okay. At the Queeny plant did you have any 5 involvement with the production of PCB-containing i products? * A. We produced Pydraule in the central blending 8 and drumming facility. Some of ay engineers did project 9 work in that facility. 10 Q. What kind of project were they working on? 11 A. Improvement projects of various kinds. Are 12 you referring to that particular department, that 13 particular operation? 14 Q. Just in the Pydrauls. 15 A. We did some improvement projects in that 16 department to speed up the drumming, make it more precise. 17 Q. Was there anything done as far as changing 18 the products at all? 19 A. The center line drumming and blending 20 facility was a multi-product operation set up to be very 21 flexible, and it was quite routine to change products. 22 Q. Would this area be used to mix products other 23 than the PCB-containing products? 24 A. The same department did, but the Pydrauls 25 were blended in a single dedicated blend tank that was not ------------------------------------ pgRRY PORTING 5ERVICE----------------------------------- HARTOLDMONO010439 computer Aiaea Transcription by Xscribe Il> 1 used for other things. 2 Q. Were there any by-products of the blending? 3 A. Mo. 4 Q. Was it kind of a big mixer? Was that the 5 idea? 6 A. The main piece of equipment is a big mixing 1 tank, that's right* 8 Q. Okay. Was the blending, Pydraul blending 9 process, indoors at Queeny? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q, On a day-to-day basis you were not spending 12 time in this area; is that correct? 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. Okay, were you aware of any problems with 15 leaks or spilling in that area? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Were you madeaware of anyproblems with 18 maintenance or anything to that effect in the Pydraul 19 blending area? 20 A. No. That was a very modern and efficient 21 operation. It gave me very little trouble. 22 0. Prior to 1970, didyou receive any 23 memorandum, correspondence, other information concerning 24 an increased concern with the presence of PCBs in the 25 environment? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010440 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe 47 1 A. We're dealing with events that were quite a 2 long time ago, so it's difficult for me to state with any 3 confidence exactly when I learned of increasing concern 4 about PCBs, It was probably just before 1970 that the 5 company's activities became more visible on the subject of $ PCBs, and I'm aware of organisational activity of Bill t Papageorge's assignment and so forth, but as to whether I 8 received any specific instructions before 1970, I don't 9 remember. 10 Q. How long have you known Mr Papageorge? 11 A. Almost as long as I've worked for Monsanto, 12 because he was at the Queeny Plant when I started* 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. I believe he was. 15 Q. While you were at Queeny,are you aware of 16 any changes made in the procedure for handling 17 PCB-containing products, cleanup or waste disposal changes 18 in those types of procedures that were undertaken at 19 Queeny? 20 A. It's possible, but I don't remember. 21 Q. Would it be fair to say prior to 1970 ~ when 22 did you leave the Queeny Plant? 23 A* Early 1970. 24 Q. If there had been undertaken a company-wide 25 policy to change a procedure for handling of PCBs and .OTORTTUS' "SERVICE------------------------------------HARTOLDMONO010441 Computer Aided Transcription by XscrT5 Tff 1 PCB-containing products, do you think you would have been 2 aware of that? 3 A. Either I would or someone in my organization 4 would have been aware of it, yeah. 5 Q. Okay. Do you remember any kind of 6 information, instructions given to people at Queeny 7 dealing with the PCBs to modify their behavior in any way 8 in dealing with them? 9 A. No. I don't remember. 10 Q. Okay. With respect to any spills at the 11 Queeny plant in the Pydraul area, do you know what was 12 done with that waste? 13 MR. SCBINKt I'll object to the form of the 14 question. It assumes that there were problems in that 15 area. I think the witness has testified he's not aware of 16 a problem with leaks or spills in that area at Queeny. 17 Q. (BY MR. PENDERGAST) Okay. Do you have any 18 recollection of that? 19 A. I don't remember that we had a spill problem. 20 It was a clean operation. 21 Q. Okay, in 1970, you again werepromoted? 22 A. That'8 right. 23 Q. And what was your position? 24 A. Manufacturing manager, specialty products. 25 Q. And you moved into the general office then? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010442 Computer Aided TranscrTptxonT>y Xscribe re 1 A. That's right. 2 Q. You held thatposition for eight years? 3 A. I was specifically involved with the 4 specialty products through 1975. After that I had a 5 somewhat modified assignment where I no longer was connected with that same set of products. 7 Q. And when was that? 8 A. Pardon me? 9 Q. When did that change occur? 10 A. 1975. 11 Q. Okay. How did your job duties change then? 12 A. In 1975, we had a significant reorganization, 13 and the responsibility for the products related to 14 functional fluids, including the PCBs, went to Bob Pohl, 15 who was another one of the manufacturing managers. 16 Q. Were you involved in the discussions after 17 1970, relating to the phase-out of PCB-containing 18 products? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Who else was involved inthosediscussions? 21 A. Everybody associatedwith making the 22 functional fluids based on PCBs was closely involved in 23 the phase-out program. That included Howard Bergen, who 24 was business group director, my boss, Bill Richard, who 25 was research director, Don Olson, who was the marketing ------------------------------------ FERRY..HEPORTING" "SERVICE------------------------------- " HARTOLDMONO010443 Computer Aided Transfer IptiorTTiy XscrTbe 1 director# later replaced by Tom Gossage. He had the same 2 assignment. Earl Potter # who was the materials manager# 3 it was his responsibility to schedule the production of 4 shipping and so forth. Various people worked for Gossage 5 and Richard# Bill Papageorge# of course. 6 Q. How much of your tine between 1970 and 1975, 7 was tied up in the discussions of the phase-out? 8 A. I would say close to half of my time was 9 involved in Aroclor phase-out issues of one kind or 10 another. 11 Q. Did you become involved in that right away in 12 1970? 13 A. I don't think the phase-out program was 14 completely defined at that time. We phased out of 15 plasticizer applications just about that time# but I don't 16 remember exactly when. 17 Q. Who was your predecessoras manufacturing IB manager? 19 A. Bill Kuhn. 20 Q. What happened to him? 21 A. The reorganisation of1970 grouped the 22 products differently# and some new business groups were 23 formed# and Bill Kuhn became the manufacturing manager for 24 a different set of products. 25 Q. What was your input into discussions on the PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010444 Computer Aided transcription by Xscribe 3T 1 phase-out of PCBs? 2 A. I worked with the research people, 3 specifically Lou Stark, in evaluating Canada replacement 4 fluids and providing cost information on the proposed 5 replacement fluids so that the first cost effective ones 6 could be selected. Z provided information on the feasibility of making various kinds of replacement 8 products, developed cost estimates on any capital 9 additions that might be required to make the new products, 10 worked with Earl Potter on scheduling the phase-out of one 11 product and phasing in of another. 12 Q. In what month of 1970 did you move into the 13 home office? 14 A. I'm not sure exactly; March or April as I 15 recall. 16 Q. As of that time was it your understanding 17 that the decision had already been made to phase out all 18 PCD production? 19 A No 20 Q. What decision had been made along those 21 lines? 22 A. As I recall it at that time, there was no 23 intention whatever to phase out electrical fluids, I 24 think that by that time a decision had been made to phase 25 out plasticizers. I'm not sure, but that's about the time ------------------------------------ PERKY.TnETPORTIW3 ""SERVICE----------------------------------HARTOLDMONO010445 ^osTputer Aided Transcription-by xserTDe ----si 1 that that decision was made, but there were really a 2 series of decisions, not a single decision to phase out 3 all PCBs. 4 Q. How about the hydraulic fluids? 5 A. As Z recall it in 1970, we intended to i continue to make the hydraulic fluids* Q. Did you have any input on the decision to 8 discontinue manufacturing hydraulic fluids containing 9 PCBS? 10 A. NO. 11 0. As manufacturing manager, were you involved 12 in assessing any changes that had to be made in the 13 manufacturing process based on new information on PCBs? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. What was the nature of those 16 discussions? 17 A. In 1970, we were beginning to sample waste 18 streams from the operating departments in a much more 19 sophisticated away. Research people were developing much 20 more sensitive analytical methods, and as we developed 21 information showing that there was some loss of Aroclor in 22 the waste waters leaving the operating departments, I 23 worked with the plants to develop improvements to 24 eliminate those losses as well as we could. 25 Q. What were those improvements? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010446 Computer Aided Transcription by JCscribe 57 1 A. They were an accumulation of relatively small 2 changes, quite a large number of them. I don't remember 3 any more the amount of money that was spent, but we did a 4 lot of small projects. Bach time we would find the 5 potential source of PCB lost to the sewers, we would 6 implement an appropriate engineering improvement to 1 eliminate it to the extent that it was possible. S Q. Can you give me some examples of where these 9 sources were? 10 A. An example that comes to mind is that as I 11 mentioned earlier, that one step was a blowing step, was 12 air was bubbled through the crude product to remove HCL, 13 and we discovered that a small amount of PCB was entrained 14 in that air, the air leaving that step. So, we installed 15 a separator to collect it. 16 Q. Where had that been going? 17 A. That had been going to the sewer. 18 Q, What was done with the collected PCBs with 19 the new system? 20 A. The drum was taken to a landfill. 21 Q. What were some of the other sources of PCBs 22 into the sewer? 23 A. 1 don't remember any others that were 24 inherent in the process itself. We did things like 25 installing separator pits as interceptors in the sewers to PERRY' 'RETORTHTCrEEKVICE HARTOLDMONO010447 computer Aided Transcription by Xscri^e Tf 1 try to collect anything that might be in the waste water 2 leaving the department; because it was easier to remove it 3 before it was commingled with other wastes from other 4 parts of the plant. 5 Q. How did the separator pit system work? 6 A. In general, it's a simple settler with T suitable baffles, would be reasonably efficient. S Q. And that hope was the PCB-containing 9 materials would settle to the bottom, and the relatively 10 clean waste water would travel on to the next compartment? 11 A. That's right. PCBs are much heavier than 12 water, so settling is a reasonably effective way of 13 separating them. 14 Q. That was implemented after 1970? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Was that done in both the Krummrich and 17 Anniston plants? . 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Any other sources identified and measures 20 taken? 21 A. I remember that there were a number of small 22 sourees and a significant list of small projects, but I 23 don't recall what the others were. . 24 Q, Was theprocedure of takingPCB-containing 25 wastes to landfills discontinued at some point in time? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010448 Computer Aided Transcription by XscrTbe 35 1 A. No. I don't remember that there was any 2 feasible alternative. 3 Q. Okay. Was information regarding Monsanto1s 4 efforts to test its own waste water and incorporating this 5 holding system ever communicated to any of its customers 6 as being helpful? 7 A. Most of the engineering measures that I 8 described are rather unique to the requirements of the 9 production process and would have no relevance to a 10 customer. It's my recollection at some point we put 11 together a package of engineering information about things 12 like settling basins, and I recall providing some 13 information like that to marketing for their purposes with 14 customers, but I don't know anything about how it might 15 have been communicated from marketing on to the customers. 15 Q. What did that package of engineering 17 information consist of? 18 A. I think it consisted of sketches and some 19 calculation methods showing how to size such a thing. 20 Q. Okay. Do you have any idea where that 21 information is today? 22 A. I have no idea. 23 0. Were you involved at all in the decision 24 making as to what to tell Monsanto customers about more 25 recent discoveries concerning PCBs? -------------------------------------- FEKKI--REPORTING BKRVYCE------------------------------HARTOLDMONO010449 HbapuTter Sided Transcription toy xscr106 1 A. I wasn't directly involved in that. 2 Q. Tangentially were you involved in some way? 3 A. Only to the extent of hearing about it and 4 staff meetings over in departmental reports. 5 Q. Were you aware of any sentiment in Monsanto 6 that the customers not be given information concerning the 7 problems associated and identified with PCBs? 8 A. Ho. I know that the policy was that we would 9 tell the customers what we knew. 10 Q. Were you aware of anyone at Monsanto who felt 11 the customers or the public were not being told enough? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Were you or are you aware of any testing 14 around the Monsanto PCB production areas at Krummrich and 15 Anniston revealing levels of PCBs in the ground 16 surrounding those production areas? 17 A. No. 18 Q. You haven't seen any of those test results? 19 A. NO. 20 Q. Would you besurprised to find that high 21 levels of PCBs are found in the soilsurrounding the 22 production areas at Anniston and Krummrich? 23 A. Would it surprise me to learn that? No, I 24 don't think so, because those products were made there for 25 decades. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010450 Coiaputer Aided transcription try Xscribe 5T 1 Q. And while you were working at those plants, 2 you understood that PCBs, PCB-containing materials were 3 getting off the production facility and into the ground or 4 on the production area? 5 A. I would aay during the time I was associated 6 with those operations, I was not aware that that was going * on, but those products were made there for decades, and 8 there is rain. It certainly is possible. 9 Q. Was any of the hydrochloric acid used in 10 or -- strike that. Was any of the hydrochloric acid which 11 was a by-product of the PCB production allowed to escape 12 into the sewer system? 13 A. Yes. That was a result of the blowing step 14 for hydrochloric acid. 15 Q. Was there an effort made at Monsanto to 16 maintain consistent levels of production of PCB-containing 17 materials while substitutes were being developed? 18 A. Yes. It was our policy to maintain a 19 reliable source of supply to our customers until there was 20 an alternative available. 21 Q. Okay. Is it fair to say that the decision to 22 discontinue the production of PCB-containing hydraulic 23 fluids was mads before s replacement was developed? 24 A. I guess I have a little trouble with the 25 question. We certainly made a clear decision that we ------------------------------------ PERRY"REPORTING SERVICE----------------------------------HARTOLDMONO010451 computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe TT8 1 wanted to develop replacements, and the purpose of that, 2 of replacements, would be so that we could stop making 3 PCB-containing fluids. So, we certainly wanted to 4 discontinue making PCB-containing fluids. 5 Q. The production of the PCB-containing fluids 6 was continued until there could be a smooth transition 1 into the non-PCB containing fluids? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. And this was tomaintain supply to satisfy 10 the continuing needs of the customers? 11 A. That's right. 12 Q. Was there a fear that if the PCBs were 13 removed from the market too soon, Monsanto would lose its 14 large share of the hydraulic fluid market? 15 A. Yes. We were concerned about that. 16 Q. The idea being, "If we removed the 17 PCB-containing fluids before we have the replacement, 18 customers are going to have to go elsewhere, and they are 19 going to be less likely to come back to Monsanto once we 20 have our products"? 21 A. More than that. They would be very angry, 22 because they didn't necessarily have good alternatives at 23 the time. 24 Q. But that was a component of it? 25 A. Yes. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010452 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscrxbe ' 5U 1 Q. In 1975, how did your job change? 2 A. It was significantly diminished. The 3 reorganization did not require as many people in the 4 manufacturing manager position as we bad, and some 5 business groups that formally had been separate were 6 combined, and I was on what's politely called special 7 assignment for about a year. 8 Q. Okay. Did you continue your involvement with 9 the PCB question after that? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Okay. The last time you were involved in the 12 PCB issue with Monsanto was 1975? 13 A. As I recall again. 14 0. What was the reason for the reorganization in 15 1975? 16 A. I really don't recall. 17 Q. Did it have anything to do with thephasing 18 out of the PCB production? 19 A. Perhaps slightly. Thebusiness group was 20 becoming smaller because some products had been phased 21 out. So, perhaps that was part of the logic with the way 22 it was combined with the other organisations, but that 23 would have been a minor factor in the overall 24 reorganization. Q. To your knowledge, were any inventories of -------------------------------------- PERRY "KEPOETTIR!..ISERVrCI------------------------------------HARTOLDMONO010453 computer Aided transcription by xscribe 1 hydraulic fluid containing PCBs manufactured by Monsanto 2 ever incinerated, Monsanto's inventories? 3 A. I don't remember that there were. 4 Q. When the first replacement for the 5 PCB-containing fluids was developed, Z assume there was a 6 day when research comes in and says, We got something we 7 think we can use." Do you remember who made that 8 announcement? 9 A. Well, it didn't happen in a single event in 10 that fashion. Lou Stark and some other people in research 11 were working on new formulations. Each one was its own 12 problem, that is, each grade, and so they worked on them 13 one at a time, and they would develop a new 312, a new 14 P-9, a new A-200 or whatever, and over a period of time 15 worked their way through all of the different grades. And 16 it was overlap between these steps because as they would 17 formulate one, they would perhaps be doing fire testing or 18 pump testing on some of the others. The desire was that 19 by some certain date we would have suitable formulations 20 for all of the grades, but that didn't happen on any 21 specific -- that was not any single event. 22 Q. Okay, for example, when the 312 was 23 reformulated to 312-A, was that product then held until 24 the rest of the product line could catch up with it, or 25 did someone give the order, "Let's go ahead. Let's start PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010454 Computer Aided Transcript!on by XscrTbe 81 1 making this stuff and get it out there"? 2 A. I don't remember the sequence exactly. The 3 intention was that we would bring all of the old grades to 4 a halt at one time and begin all the new ones at one time. 5 The reason for that was that there was common blending 6 equipment for most of the various Pydrauls, and we wanted 7 to do a cleanout in such a way that we could say with 8 confidence that from a certain day forward, there was no 9 PCB in the fluid. And that argued against any advanced 10 introduction of any one, and, in any case, all of the 11 reformulations reached an end point within a reasonable 12 span of time. 13 Q. Were the PCB production areas at Krummrich 14 and Anniston ever used for anything other than the 15 production of PCBs? 16 A. At Anniston and Krummrich? No. They were 17 dumped for that purpose. 18 Q. Were they evaluated to determine whether they 19 could be used for anything else? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Was theassumption thatthey were so 22 specialized that they couldn't be used for anything else? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Do youknow if any of theequipment at 25 Anniston or Krummrich was salvaged for any purpose? FEHKYTTEFORT IHC SERVICE------------------------------------HARTOLDMONO010455 TTompCTfer Aided Transcription-By Ascribe 1 A. I don't think so. 2 Q. Do you know what happened to all that stuff? 3 A. Pardon me? 4 Q. Do you know what happened to all the 5 production equipment at Anniston and Krummrich? 6 A. Krummrich was still running at the time that 7 I left the business group* Anniston was not. We 8 dismantled all the Anniston equipment and scrapped it. 9 Q. Did you supervise that or observe it in any 10 way? 11 A. Well, it was my responsibility, but I was not 12 at the scene. 13 Q, The dismantling of the Anniston plant wac 14 under your supervision? 15 A. It was my responsibility. The direct 16 supervision was handled by people at the Anniston plant. 17 0. That was one of the jobs you were given in 18 the central office? One day they come in and say, " Jim, 19 your responsibility is to take apart the Anniston 20 production area"? 21 A. Oh, no. That would just be a normal part of 22 the responsibility of the manufacturing end to see that 23 that was done. 24 0. Was that stuff buried, or was it incinerated? 25 What happened to it? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010456 Computer Aided 'transcription oy xscrTOW 1 A. Well, the equipment van all made of steel. 2 The instructions at the plant were to decontaminate the 3 equipment, meaning to clean it out as effectively as they 4 could. At this point I don't recall what ultimately was 5 done with it, whether it was scrapped or what. 6 Q. Do you recall any testing being done of the 7 equipment to see if it contained PCBs after cleaning was 8 attempted? 9 A. They took some measures so that more of it 10 was cleaned, but I don't know what they were. 11 Q. Okay, With respect to the production of the 12 substitutes for the PCB-containing products, were new 13 production facilities created? 14 A. We modified existing production facilities. 15 Q. How about the terpheny1 based products? 16 Where were they manufactured? 17 A. Terpheny1 based products were made in some 18 equipment that had formerly been used to make the 19 PCB-containing products, 20 Q. The tarphanyls themselves, the 21 polychlorinated terphenyls, were they made at Anniston and Krumarich? A. Only at Anniston, Q. Okay. And was that using the old PCB production areas? FERRY.RE POUTING.SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010457 XTomputfer Aided Transcrlptlon by Xscrioe F4 1 A. We had been making chlorinated terphenyl for 2 many years. We began making a new and different grade of 3 chlorinated terphenyl for this purpose and utilized 4 equipment which had from time to time been used in common 5 for either chlorinated biphenyl or chlorinated terphenyl. 6 Q. Do you know what was done to clean that equipment before it was put into production for the 8 terphenyls, if anything? 9 A. I don't remember. 10 Q. Why were the terphenyl based products phased 11 out? 12 A. We discovered shortly after the reformulation 13 that there was a trace of chlorinated biphenyl in the 14 chlorinated terphenyl, and after considerable effort 15 concluded that we could not avoid it. 16 Q. Okay. What was the source of the PCBs? 17 A. Biphenyl and terphenyl are made in the sane 18 process, and, in fact, the product of -- the crude product 19 of that process is a mixture of biphenyl and terphenyl and 20 higher polyphenyls. The remainder of the process is a 21 distillation system to separate those components, and we 22 ware unable to do a perfect separation. 23 Q. Was the eventual sale of the PCB -- or strike 24 that. Was the ultimate sale of the replacement products 25 timed based on the amount of inventory of the PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010458 Computer AidedTranscrTption Dy Xscrioe *5 1 PCB-containing products remaining? 2 A, No. It was timed by usually the amount of 3 time it took us to install modifications to be able to 4 produce the new phosphate ester. 5 Q. Was there any gap or overlap in the sale of 6 the two products? 7 A. No. We carefully orchestrated a program so 8 that the inventory of the old products would last to a 9 certain exact date, and we could again bring the new 10 products on on that same date in such a way that we could 11 again say with confidence that no fluid produced after a 12 certain point had PCB in it. 13 Q. Was there ever a time when you had the 14 phosphate ester fluid in barrels, and during the same 15 period of time you had the terphenyl fluid in barrels, and 16 you sold the terphenyl fluid? 17 A. Maybe a few days. 18 Q. Was there ever a time when Monsanto had the 19 production capability of making phosphate ester fluids, 20 that they did not put that capability into use because 21 they had inventories of terphenyl containing fluids? 22 A. No. Our inventories were normally very 23 small. Inventory was usually not an issue. 24 Q. When did Monsanto begin sale of phosphate 25 ester based fluids? Do you know? -----------------------------------PERRY REPORTING 3EWTCE " HARTOLDMONO010459 computer Aiaed Tranacription by XscrTbe m 1 A. I can't tell you any dates. It's too long 2 ago. 3 Q. Is it before 1975? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What was Earl Potter's role in coordinating 6 the tilling of the availability of the phosphate ester t fluids? 8 A. He did the daily planning of the changeover. 9 I was working closely with him so that I could predict for 10 him exactly when the new phosphate ester would be 11 available, and it was his job to be sure that the other 12 components were on hand when they were needed and to 13 schedule the production of the old fluids in such a way 14 that the inventories would last until the new fluid was 15 available. 16 Q. During the last five years have you been 17 involved with any licensing of processes that concern 18 production of PCBs? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you know if Monsanto still has any 21 licensees for those processes? 22 A. We never licensed any outside company to make 23 PCBs. We did have foreign subsidiaries making PCBs under 24 license from us. 25 Q. When did that practice discontinue? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010460 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscrxbe F7 1 A. Our affiliate company in Japan made PCBb for 2 a very short time, and it was before my time as 3 manufacturing manufacturer, actually. Our operation in 4 the United Kingdom made PCBs for many many years and shut 5 down more or less at the same time that Krummrich did. 6 0. Were those the only two licensees you're 7 aware of? 8 A. Tea. 9 Q. To your knowledge, was the process for 10 manufacturing PCBs maintained as a trade secret by 11 Monsanto? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you personally keep any files concerning 14 your involvement with the PCB? 15 A. NO. 16 Q. While you were at Monsanto, did you maintain 17 any files concerning the PCB production or phase-out? 18 A. Well, each of the jobs that I had associated 19 with those products, I had files that described -- I 20 should say that contained records referring to those 21 responsibilities. 22 Q. Okay. Bow about once you had come to St. 23 Louis? Did you keep a separate file on the PCB 24 discussions? 25 A. During the time I was manufacturing manager. PERRY.. RZPOPTTRG-B^ETRVTCE HARTOLDMONO010461 computer Aided Transcription by xscr me 6 1 I had an extensive file referring to the various things we 2 were doing for reformulation and phase-out. 3 Q. Do you have any idea what happened to those 4 files? 5 A. Yes. They were turned over to my successor. 6 Q. And that was? % A. Bob Pohl. 8 Q. Would that be true of your files from the 9 Queeny, Krummrich and Anniston plants? Were they turned 10 over to your successor? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. PENDERGAST: That*s all the questions I 13 have. Thank you. 14 HR. SCHINK: We will read it. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PERRY REPORTING SERVICE HARTOLDMONO010462 Computer Aided Transcription-by~~Xscribe 1 2 3 4 JAMES R. SAVAGE 5 6 Subscribed end sworn to before me this ' f day of r It* 8 My commission expires: __________________ 9 10 11 [Notary Public] 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 pijjj}*py REPORTXR,g",""g,E'RV HARTOLDMONO010463 NOTARIAL CERTIFICATE STATE OF MISSOURI CITY OF ST. LOUIS ) ) ) I, KATHRYN T. O'NEILL, a Registered Professional Reporter and a duly commissioned Notary Public within and for the State of Missouri, do hereby certify that pursuant to notice there came before me at the Paul Brown Building, 818 Olive Street, St. Louis, Missouri 3101, JAMES R. SAVAGE, who was by me first duly sworn to testify to the truth and nothing but the truth of all knowledge touching and concerning the matters in controversy in this cause; that the witness was thereupon carefully examined upon oath and said examination was reduced to writing by me; that the signature of the witness was not waived by agreement of all parties; and that this deposition is a true and correct record of the testimony given by the witness. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and seal this 19th day of August, 1988. My commission expires June 3rd, 1990. [Notary Public] HARTOLDMONO010464 Perry Reporting Service 618 Olive Street, Suite 462 St. Louis, Missouri 63101 August 19, 1988 Mr. James H. Schink Messrs. Kirkland & Bills Attorneys at Law 200 Bast Randolph Drive Chicago, Illinois 60101 ** troh_Pie Castlng_Co. -?.Monsanto Company Dear Mr. Schinkt Enclosed please find a carbon copy of the transcript of Mr. Savage's deposition, which was taken August 11, 1988, together with the original signature page and errata sheet. Please have Mr. Savage read his deposition at his earliest opportunity, making any changes he feels necessary on the errata sheet and stating his reason for making such change. He should then sign the original signature page and errata sheet in the presence of a notary public and return both to Mr. Carlson, who has the original transcript. Thank you for your assistance in this matter. Very truly yours, Enclosures Kathryn T. O'Neill, R.P.R. HARTOLDMONO010465