Document zdmDNxzmXwp3By6gJyzJdX26n

1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF MILWAUKEE COUNTY STATE OF WISCONSIN STROH DIE CASTING COMPANY, Plaintiff, vs. MONSANTO COMPANY, Defendant. ) ) ) ) ) Case No. 639887 ) ) ) ) DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE Taken on behalf of Plaintiff August 10 and 11, 1988 8l8 ^)lxv ofi J?ouu. Qfhusoun 631c Sle-. \porting, oflenotype ^J^eporiers (3*4) 62< -4790 oTcR of SQ 0%. 43-1283603 WATER PCB-SD0000052057 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF MILWAUKEE COUNTY STATE OP WISCONSIN STROH DIE CASTING COMPANY, Plaintiff, vs. MONSANTO COMPANY, Defendant. Case No. 639887 INDEX Direct Examination by Mr. Carlson........................................ Cross-Examination by Mr. Schink............................................. &se 4 310 E X H I B ITS Plaintiffs' Deposition Exhibit Papageorge NOS . 1-16 Plaintiff 1s Deposition Exhibit Papageorge Nos . 14A&E Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Papageorge NO. 17 Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Papageorge NOS . 18-29 Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Papageorge No. 30 Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Papageorge NO. 31 Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Papageorge NO. 32 Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Papageorge NO. 33 130 280 283 287 304 305 306 307 WATER PCB-SD0000052058 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF MILWAUKEE COUNTY STATE OF WISCONSIN STROH DIE CASTING COMPANY, Plaintiff, vs, MONSANTO COMPANY, Defendant. Casa Mo, 639887 DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGB, produced, sworn and examined on behalf of Plaintiff, August 10 and 11, 1988, between the hours of eight o'clock in the forenoon and five o'clock in the afternoon of that day, at the Paul Brown Building, 818 Olive Street, St. Louis, Missouri 63101, before KATHRYN T. O'NEILL, a Registered Professional Reporter and a Notary Public within and for the State of Missouri. . APPEARANCES The Plaintiff was represented by Mr. Donald H. Carlson and Mr. John R. Pendergast, Jr. of the law firm of Messrs. Riordan, Crivello, Carlson i Mentkowski, 710 North Plankinton Avenue, Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53203. The Defendant and Mr. Papageorge were represented by Mr. James H. Schink of the law firm of Messrs. Kirkland & Ellis, 200 East Randolph Drive, Chicago, Illinois 60601. WATER PCB-SD0000052059 Computer Aiaed Transcription by Xscnoe ^ 1 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 2 btveen Counsel for the Plaintiff and Counsel for the 3 Defendant, that this deposition may be taken in shorthand 4 by KATHRYN T. O'NEILL, a Registered Professional Reporter 5 and Notary Public, and afterwards transcribed into typewriting and signed by the Witness. 7 8 o-O-o 9 10 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, 11 of lawful age, being produced, sworn, and examined on the 12 part of the Plaintiff, deposes and says: 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION 14 QUESTIONS BY MR. CARLSON: 15 Q. Would you be kind enough for our record to 16 state your full name and your home address, please? 17 A. William B. Papageorge, 321 Pebble Valley 1C Drive, Creve Coeur, Missouri 63141. 19 Q. Thank you. As you know, I'm Don Carlson, and 20 I represent Stroh Die Casting in this matter. During the 21 course of the deposition, if any of my questions don't 22 make any sense to you, either grammatically or 23 technically, let me'know, and I'll try to rephrase them. 24 If Mr. Schink makes an objection to a question, please 25 wait until we resolve the objection. He may object and -----------------------------------PERRY "REPORTING SERVICE------------------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000052060 Ubmpufer Aided Transcr iptioiTTjy Xscrlbe 1 ask you not to respond, and I suspect you'll take his 2 advice, or he may object to the form of question and ask 3 you to respond. Remember, and I'm sure you will, to let 4 me get the complete question set forth before you give 5 your response* I'll try not to ask another question until you complete your answer, and that way we won't be talking 7 at the same time, and the court reporter will get a 8 complete transcript. If you want to make a yes or no 9 answer, use the words rather than a nodding of the head or 10 and "uh-huri" or "uh-uh," again so we have a good 11 transcript. Okay? 12 A I understand. 13 Q. Okay. Are you currently employed? 14 A. Self-employed 15 Q. Okay. And do you do business under any 16 business name other than your own name? 17 A. No 18 Q. Okay. And what is the nature of your 19 self-employment now? 20 A. I help Monsanto Company in matters similar to 21 the one we are discussing today. 22 Q. Okay. And how long have you been 23 self-employed in such a capacity? 24 A. April, 1987 25 Q. Have you helped any other companies that have PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052061 Computer Aided Transcriptlon by XscrTbe 1 been Involved in any litigation since April of 1987? 2 A. Indirectly, yes. 3 Q. Can you tell me what companies indirectly you 4 have helped? 5 A. Sangamo Electric Company and Westinghouse 6 Corporation. , i 0. And what was thenature of the help in just 8 very general terms -- I don't want to go into the 9 specifics of your work -- that indirectly helped Sangamo? 10 A. I was involved in depositions regarding PCS 11 matters, and I was requested by those companies to 12 participate. 13 Q. Okay. That was true for both Sangamo and 14 Westinghouse? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Was Monsanto a party to either of the cases 17 in which you were deposed by those companies? 18 A. I believe at one time they were, but not when 19 I was deposed. 20 Q. Okay. By any chance do you have any 21 recollection of how many depositions you have given in 22 litigation in which the subject of PCBs was at issue? 23 A. I don't have an exact record, but it's 24 approaching a couple dozen by now. This is trials and 25 depositions -----------------------------------PERRY REPORTING SERVICE---------------------------- -- WATER PCB-SD0000052062 Computer Aided Transcription oy Xscrxoe 7 1 Q. How many of those would be trials? 2 A. Five of them. 3 Q. In any of the trials that you have testified 4 in, was an issue whether or not PCBs -- strike that. In 5 any of the trials that you testified in, was there at 6 issue whether or not e product containing PCBs was t defective and unreasonably dangerous? And I differentiate 8 that between a claim of negligence. 9 A. I have to question -- I'm not totally 10 familiar with the legalistic meanings of some of these 11 words. 12 Q. Sure. I appreciate that. 13 A. As to the product being flawed, not that I -14 as best as I can determine, no, that was not an 15 allegation. 16 Q. Okay. Have you heard of Section 402(a) of 17 the Restatement of Torts 2nd? Is that a name of a section 18 that means anything to you? 19 A. 20 Q. Are you aware of any litigation that has been 21 brought against Monsanto by a die cast company, other than 22 ay client, in which the company was seeking to recover 23 damages it had incurred as the result of use or disposal 24 of PCBs? 25 A. Die cast company? Ho. . o SB PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052063 Computer Aided Transcription by XscrTbe IT 1 Q. Just prior to -- I presume it was your 2 retirement at Monsanto? 3 A. Yes 4 Q. What was your position with the company? 5 A. I was manager, occupational health, for 6 Monsanto Chemical Company, an operating unit of Monsanto ' 7 Company 8 Q. And how long had you held that position? 9 A. One year, 10 Q. And prior to that, what position did you 11 hold? 12 A. I was director of environmental operations 13 for Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company, an operating 14 unit of Monsanto Company. 15 Q. And how long did you hold that position? 16 A. From about 1983, to the end of 1905. 17 Q. And prior to that your position with the 18 company? 19 A. Prior to that I was director of environmental 20 operations for Monsanto Intermediate Chemicals Company, an 21 operating unit of Monsanto Company. 22 Q. And how long did you hold that position? 23 A. Prom 1977 to 1983. 24 Q. And prior to that position? 25 A. I was manager, product acceptability, for -----------------------------------PERRY REPORTING SERVICE------------------------------- -- WATER PCB-SD0000052064 Coaputer Aiaeu Transcription by Xscribe 9 1 Monsanto Intermediate Chemicals Company. 2 Q. And how long did you hold that position? 3 A. Oh, I held that about a year, late '76 to 4 late '77. 5 Q. Prior to that? 6 A. I vaa manager, product acceptability, and I 7 believe at that time it was called process chemicals 8 division of Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company. 9 Q. And how long did you hold that position? 10 A. That was about 1973 to 1976. 11 Q. And prior to that? 12 A. Manager, product acceptability, functional 13 fluids group of the organic chemicals division of Monsanto 14 Company. That was -- 15 Q. Prom what period of time? 16 A. About 1972 to 1973. 17 Q. Prior to that? 13 A. Manager, environmentalprotection of the sane 19 division. 20 Q. And you held that post for howlong? 21 A. Prom about *71 to '72. 22 Q. Okay. Prior to `71? 23 A. I was manager, environmental control from 24 1970 to *71. 25 Q. When did you start with Monsanto? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052065 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe 10 1 A. 1951. 2 Q. Okay. Going back in time then prior to 3 becoming manager of environmental control in 1970. 4 A. I was plant manager at the Monsanto plant at 5 Anniston, Alabama* 6 Q. How long did you hold that position? 7 A. Prom 1955 to 1970. 8 Q. Prior to that? 9 A. I was general superintendent in manufacturing 10 at the W. G. Krummrich, K-r-u-m-m-r-i-c-h, plant in 11 Sauget, S-a-u-g-e-t, Illinois, from '63 to -- '64 to *65, 12 I'm sorry, about a year. 13 Q. Okay. And prior to that? 14 A. Prior to that I was at the John.F. Queeny 15 plant, Q-u-e-e-n-y, in St. Louis, Missouri, of Monsanto 16 Company. 17 Q. And what was your post there? 13 A. Going backward, I was general superintendent 19 of distribution warehousing, utilities, from about 1962 to 20 1964. 21 Q. Okay. And the other positionsthere? 22 A. Prior to that I was technical services 23 superintendent at that sane plant* 24 Q. And at what time period? 25 A. About 1960 to '62. ----------------------------------- PERRY HEPUKTIHG"SERVICE--------------------------- -- -- WATER PCB-SD0000052066 Lonpucrar Aioeo Transcription by xscrr&e----------- ox 1 Q. Okay, Prior to that? 2 A. Maintenance superintendent at the same plant. 3 Q. And what time frame was that? 4 A. *58 to '60, 5 Q. And prior to that? A, Prior to that I was maintenance supervisor, 7 Q, And -- 8 A, That's about 1956 to '58, 9 Q. Prior to that time? 10 A. Production supervisor# same plant. 11 Q. Okay. Time frame? 12 A. About '55 to '56. 13 Q. And prior to that? 14 A. Prior to that# I was design engineer, same 15 plant, from my starting date, '51 to '55. 16 Q. Okay. Did you have an appointment within 17 your profession prior to 1951? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And where were you working? 20 A. I was with the Phillips Petroleum Company in 21 Bartlesville# Oklahoma. 22 Q. And for how long a period of tiae? 23 A. Pour years. 24 Q. What kind of work were you doing there? 25 A. The first two years# *47 through *49# I was PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052067 Computer Aided Transcrrption-By XscnBe- T2 1 in the research department as a research engineer on oil 2 field secondary recovery and in evaluating drilling 3 fluids. Prom 1949 *til 1951, I was a design engineer in 4 the refining department. 5 Q. Any other employment within your profession 6 prior to that time? 1 A. Ho. 8 Q. And what degrees do you hold? 9 A. I have a bachelor of science in chemical 10 engineering and a master of science in chemical 11 engineering, both from Washington University in St. Louis. 12 Q. Have you done any work towards a Ph.D? 12 A. I have about 15 credit hours earned at the 14 then Oklahoma A & M. I believe it's now Oklahoma State. 15 Q. Have you taught any courses? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Have you given any seminars to academic 18 groups in any of the areas of your expertise? 19 A. I have given seminars relating to PCBs to 20 groups that included representatives of the academic 21 field. 22 Q. How many seminars do you think you have given 23 on that subject? Lots? 24 A. I have never kept count; three or four. 25 Q, Okay.Were the seminars that you gave -------------------------------------PERRY REPORTING'SERVICE--------------------------------- -- WATER PCB-SD0000052068 UbmpuTTer Aided Transcription oy XscriW rj 1 sponsored by your employer? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Do you have some recollection of who may have 4 put on these seminars? 5 A. I recall a seminar in the -- let me think, in c Lansing, Michigan. I was under the impression it was given by a-- sponsored by the GreatLakes Governor's 8 Conference or some such title. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. There was another conference in Madison, 11 Wisconsin on the university premises. To this day I don't 12 recall who sponsored it. I just don't remember that, who 13 sponsored it. 14 Q. Okay. How about the others? Do you have any 15 recollection? 16 A. Let me see if I can recall them. There was a 17 meeting in Duluth, Minnesota in March of 1970, sponsored 18 by the director of the Federal Water Laboratory there. 19 There were some scientific professors in the audience. 20 There were two meetings in North Carolina, as I 21 recall, about 1971 and again in '73, sponsored by the 22 National Institute of Environmental Health, at which 23 academic people were attending. There was a meeting -- 24 the dates escape me. I believe about 1974 ~ held in New 25 Orleans, at which there were many academic people, mfcY REPORTING SERVICE -- WATER PCB-SD0000052069 computer Aided Transcription oy Xscrioe ~^L4~ 1 scientists as well as economists and a variety of 2 backgrounds. I've forgotten vho sponsored that one. I 3 just don't recall. 4 Q. Any other seminars that you have participated 5 in or given that you recall? 6 ~ A. Kell, I suppose this fits under semijnars. I 1 have talked before the Federal Interdepartmental 'Task 8 Force on FCBs. I've participated in the National 9 Symposium on PCBs held in Chicago in November, 1975, 10 sponsored by the EPA. 11 Q. Let me ask you to go back. Do you remember 12 when the meeting was with the Federal Interdepartment Task 13 Force on PCBs? 14 A. There were two occasions. One occurred, as 15 best I remember, in early '71. The second occurred in May 16 of 1972. 17 Q. Any other talks that you have given or 18 presentations that you have made that you would believe 19 would fall into these same categories? 20 A. I have given these presentations before 21 customer and Industry groups. 22 Q. Any presentations to theAssociation of Die 23 Casting, die cast houses? 24 A. No. 25 Q. When was the Lansing, Michiganpresentation? ----------------------------------- PERRY'REPORTING"SERVICE----------------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000052070 Computer Aided Tra ns crlption toy Xsc r life T5 1 A. As best I recall, it was in 1970. 2 Q. And the conference that was apparently on the 3 grounds, anyway, of the University of Wisconsin? 4 A. 1973, '74. 5 Q. Okay. In any of the presentations that you 6 have made, did you as a part of your presentation give out 7 handout material? 8 A. I had handout material at the second session 9 with the Interdepartmental Task Force. I don't recall 10 having handouts at any of the others. 11 Q. Were any of the presentations given from a 12 prepared script? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q.. Do you have copies -- strike that. Were each 15 of those from a prepared script? 16 A. I'm sorry? 17 0. Were each of those presentations from a 18 prepared script? 19 A. Mot all of them. 20 Q. Can you tell me which ones were? 21 A. The presentations to the Industry and 22 customer groups was made from a prepared script. 23 Q. When was that? 24 A. Those were 1971. I didn't have prepared 25 scripts for the other presentations. I just don't believe : PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052071 computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe 1* 1 I had, no. 2 0* Okay. Were the presentations to the 3 customers and industry groups sponsored by Monsanto? 4 A. HO. 5 Q. Can you toll me who did, which industry 6 groups we're talking about? 7 A. One of them was the national Electrical 8 Manufacturers Association, along with the American 9 National Standards Institute. Another was the PCB Ad Hoc 10 Committee of the Electronic Industries Association. 11 Q. Any others? 12 A. Those two. 13 Q. Okay. When was thepresentation to the 14 National Electrical Manufacturers Association? 15 A. As best I recall, that was September, *71. 16 Q. And the presentation to the PCB Ad Hoc 17 Committee? 18 A. I believe that came about either the latter 19 part of '71 or early '72. 20 Q. Okay. Was the prepared script used for 21 giving the presentation to NBMA? 22 A. Yes. 23 0. lave you written any articles that have been 24 published in any scientific journals or in any other 25 publications that were distributed publically? REPORTING SfcRVtCE " WATER PCB-SD0000052072 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe TT 1 A. No. 2 Q. Your first contact with PCBs In any working 3 capacity was when? 4 A. It was when I was maintenance supervisor at 5 the St. Louis plant at Monsanto. 6 Q. And what was your -- or how did your job T function bring you in contact with PCBs at that time? 8 A. I supervised the electricians in the plant, 9 who on occasion would do maintenance work or install 10 electrical equipment containing PCBs. 11 Q. Was that back beginning in what, 1956? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. When you were a production supervisor, 14 you were not involved in the productionof PCBs? 15 A. I was not. 16 Q. Okay. Didyour positionas -- I'm not too 17 sure I have the title down here right -- technical service 18 supervisor or superintendent from 1960 to 1962, bring you 19 in contact with PCBs? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Bow about when you -- I think there were a 22 number of responsibilities you had as general 23 superintendent of the distribution warehousing utilities 24 back in '62 through '64. Did that bring you in contact 25 with PCBs? PfefcRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052073 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscro.be 18 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And in what respect? 3 A. In two ways. The utilities department, which 4 distributes electrical power throughout the plant, was the 5 unit that operated the electrical equipment that contained 6 PCBs. Also, as part of that assignment, I was responsible for a department that blended different chemicals to make 8 products for Monsanto. Some of that blending involved the 9 production of hydraulic fluids that contained PCBs. 10 Q. Which of the Aroclors were utilized in the 11 production of hydraulic fluid at that time? 12 A. As best I remember, there were Aroclor 1242, 13 Aroclor 1240. 14 Q. Do you remember which of the -- strike that. 15 Was Monsanto marketing under the name Pydraul at that 16 time? 17 A. Yes. IS Q. Do you remember which of the Pydraul fluids 19 were being blended where you were? 20 A. As best I remember, all of the product line 21 at different times in different amounts. 22 Q. If Pydraul was a 1242, would that mean that 23 1242 was the only Isomer that would be present in that 24 particular fluid? 25 A. I'm confused by your use of the word "isomer" ------------------------------------- PHHK KKFUKT1NG STTRVTCE---------------------------- "-- WATER PCB-SD0000052074 Computer Aided Transcription by XscrTBe T9 1 to describe Aroclor 1242. 2 Q. Would there be other PCBs present besides 3 1242 in a hydraulic fluid marketed as 1242? 4 MR. SCHINKi Object to the form of the 5 question. 6 A. I'm confused. - 7 0* (BY MR. CARLSON) 1242 is 42 percent 8 chlorine? 9 A. Yes. 10 0. Would there be PCBs with different 11 percentages of chlorine present in the hydraulic fluid 12 marketed as 1242? 13 MR. SCIIINI'.: Object to the form of the 14 question. 15 A. I think I understand your question. If sc, 16 the answer is no. The ingredient that's added is known as 17 Aroclor 1242. 18 0. (BY MR. CARLSON) Does that mean that is the 19 only PCB that would be present? 20 A. That is correct. 21 Q. When you were at the Krummrich plant in 22 Sauget, did that bring you in contact with PCBs, also? 23 A. Ho. 24 Q. And you were plant manager in Anniston before 25 that date? PeIRRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052075 Computer Aided Transcription Dy Xscrioe YU 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Were various Aroclors produced in the 3 Anniston plant? 4 A. Yes. 5 0* All of then? 6 A. All of then. T Q. Was anything else aade in the Anniston plant 8 besides PCBs? 3 A. Yes. 10 Q. Just in rough terms, what other kinds of 11 products? 12 A. I'll name a few that I recall. 13 Q. Sure. 14 A. Biphenyl, terphenyls, chlorine, caustic soda, 15 phosphorus penta sulphide, and the pesticide parathion, 16 p-a-r-a-t-h-i-o-n, and a similar material, niran, 17 n-i-r-a-n. We also made chlorinated terphenyls and IS hydrogenated phenyls. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. I believe that covers the list. 21 Q. Have you, during the course of your 22 professional life, taken any courses in toxicology? 23 A. Ho. 24 Q. Have you taken any courses in epidemiology? 25 A. Ho. FERRY"REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052076 Computer TiTdecTTranscription by Ascribe JX 1 Q. Monsanto obtained the right to aanufacture 2 PCBs in its purchase of Swan Chemical? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you know if Swan Chenical had done any 5 either animal or human studies on the potential effects of PCBs prior to Monsanto buying the company? 7 A. It's ay understanding they had done the acute 8 animal studies in the late 1930*s. X do not recall the 9 laboratory that they used. 10 Q. Do you know if Swan Chemical/ prior to 11 Monsanto purchasing the company# did any health surveys of 12 its employees? 13 A. I'm not aware of any such study. 14 Q. Can you tell me the first time that Monsanto 15 did a health survey of its employees that cane in contact 16 with PCBs? 17 A. Would you help me define "survey*? 18 Q. Determining whether or not the employees who 19 came in contact with PCBs were experiencing health 20 problems different than what would be generally expected. 21 A. Well# this would be done as part of the 22 annual medical physical examination -- 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. -- conducted on all employees in the plant. 25 If any problem unique to each operation would show up# it PERRY REPORTING 8ERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052077 Coaputer Aided Transcription by Xscribe 2T 1 would be evident to the plant physician. | 2 Q. All right. Do you recall whether or not 3 Monsanto at any tine specifically looked at the medical 4 records or the results of the examinations of the 5 employees that were in contact with PCBs to determine 6 specifically whether or not they were experiencing any 7 Increased health abnormalities? 8 A. Well, ay exposure to that activity would 9 indicate that this was an ongoing activity on the part o 10 the plant physician. I'm not aware of any effort of when 11 the files were segregated and Swan sat down and addressed 12 specifically looking for anything. That doesn't mean it 13 didn't happen. 14 Q. Who was your plant physician or who were the 15 plant physicians when you were at Anniston? 16 A. Dr. James Francis. 17 Q. Was he aMonsanto employee? 13 A. Ho. 19 Q. Do you know if he's still in practice? 20 A. I understand he's retired. 21 Q. Do you know where he lives? 22 A. No, I do not. 23 Q. Do you know what state he lives in or at 24 least where he lived the last time you heard? 25 A. The last time he was in Anniston, Alabama. ------------------------------------- PERltY" REPORTING SERVICE------------------------------ -------WATER PCB-SD0000052078 Computer Aided Transcrlptiorfby Xscrihe 23----- 1 Q. As the plant physician -- strike that. As 2 the plant physician, was Dr. Francis charged with the 3 responsibility of reviewing the results of the 4 examinations of plant employees to see if there was any 5 increased rate of a particular disease or health problem? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Would he issue an annual reportor any report 8 on that particular subject? 9 A. I did not Bee one. 10 Q. Do you have any understanding as to whether 11 or not he did issue such a report, although you may not 12 have been privy to it? 13 A. Dr. Francis reportedprofessionally to the 14 Monsanto medical director, who would make frequent visits 15 to the plant. They communicated in health matters 16 regarding the plant. I was not present at those meetings. 17 I don't know what exchanges took place or what reports 18 were issued from one doctor to the other. 19 Q. Who was the medical director at that time? 20 A. R. B. Kelly. 21 Q. Were there anyother plant physicians when 22 you were at Anniston? 23 A. No. 24 Q. When you were atAnniston, did Monsanto 25 monitor any waste water discharge or other plant effluents PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052079 Computer Aided Transcription I>y Xscribe 24 1 for the presence of PCBs? 2 A. Tes. 3 Q. Can you tell me when that practice began? 4 A. I'm sorry? 5 Q. When did that practice start? A* I don't know. i Q. Was it prior to you being there? 8 A* That is right. Yes. 9 Q. Did they monitor for PCBs and plant effluent 10 at Krummrich as well? 11 A. At what point in time? 12 Q. At any time that you'ro aware of. 13 A. At any time. Yes, I was aware of it starting 14 in 1970. 15 Q. Do you know if they did it prior to that? 16 A. I was told they did it. 17 Q. Were you told when they started that? 18 A. No. I just don't remember the dates. They 19 had been ongoing for years. 20 Q. More than a decade? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What werethe detection limits for your 23 monitoring equipment when you were at Anniston? 24 A. I don't recall an exact number, but they were 25 in the high parts per million or tenth of a percent kind TERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052080 Computer Aided transcription oy xscnbW Y5 1 of numbers. 2 Q. Who had responsibility for monitoring at your 3 Anniston plant when you were there? 4 A. Initially it was the responsibility of the 5 quality control chemist in the plant laboratory, and as 6 best I remember, about 1966 or '<7, ve appointed an environmental engineer who took on that responsibility. 8 Q. Who was the Q.C. chemist when you were there, 9 or who wore they if there was more than one? 10 A. His last name was Dunlap, D-u-n-l-a-p. I've 11 forgotten his first name. 12 Q. Okay. Any others that served in that 13 capacity? 14 A. Not while I was there. 15 Q. And who was the environmentalengineer that 16 was appointed in '66 or '67? 17 A. His name escapes me. I just don't remember. 18 Q. While you were plant manager at Anniston, at 19 any time did you have to alter manufacturing practice or 20 practices with regard to discharge of plant effluent as 21 the result of PCBs being found in the effluent? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Can you tell me when that first occurred, as 24 best you can recall, and what happened? 25 A. Sometime in about 1966 ~ I can't recall the PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052081 Computer Aided transcription by Xscribe Y5 1 exact period -- we changed the way we maintained the 2 limestone pits that were present at the plant for 3 neutralizing the acid water, and we put greater emphasis 4 on keeping the department dean, the floors clean, 5 stairwells. Q. Why was that? A. About 1966, about a year after I arrived. 8 Q. Okay. Why was that effort made? 9 A. We found that more PCBs ware ending up in the 10 pits, and the frequency at which the pits were dug up and 11 refurbished wasn't adequate for the additional amount of 12 PCBs that were getting into the pits. So, we increased 13 the frequency and reduced the amount leaving the 14 department. 15 Q. The function of limestone pits was to 16 neutralize the acid water? 17 A. That was one of its functions. 18 Q. And was it also to act as a filter for PCBs? 19 A. It acted as a crude filter as well as a 20 collecting pit, a sump, because they are heavier, will 21 sink to the bottom of the pit. 22 Q. How did Monsanto dispose of PCB's in those 23 years? 24 A. We had a Monsanto operated landfill on 25 Monsanto property. ----------------------------------- FERRY REPORTING SERVICE--------------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000052082 lit t 1 Q. Where was that located? 2 A. At the plant site. 3 0. Okay. Does Monsanto still own the site? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Between 1965 and 1970# did Monsanto have any 6 other landfill sites other than the one at Anniston which 7 received PCBs? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And where were they? 10 A. I don't claim to know all of them. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. I'm positive there was one at the K. G. 13 Kruumrich plant, at least one. They may have had several 14 through the years. I cannot speak for all the other 50 15 Monsanto plants. Many of them have their own landfills. 16 Q. Did Monsanto at any time incorporate a 17 program of incinerating its own PCBs? 10 A. Yes. 19 Q. Whan did it start that? 20 A. They started Incinerating in 1971. 21 Q. was that program ever discontinued? 22 A Yes. 23 Q. And when was that? 24 A. 1977. 25 0. Do you know why it was discontinued at that PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052083 AiQtfa Transcription oy ascuos 2$ 1 time? 2 A. Principally because Monsanto terminated the 3 manufacture and sale of PCBs. They used the incinerator 4 to dispose of any residual that was still at the plant 5 site# and the unit had reached the point where it needed 6 extensive maintenance and renewal. It became inefficient ' 7 and was a food time to dismantle it. 8 0. Did Monsanto make the incineration facility 9 available to its customers that had been using 10 Monsanto-produced PCB fluids? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did it cake it available to all customers? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did Monsanto continue to make the 15 incineration of the facility available to all customers 16 through 1977? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Do you know how the customers were made aware 19 of the existence of and their access to this Incineration 20 facility? 21 A. I do. 22 Q. And how was that? 23 A. Threedifferent ways that I recall. One is 24 by letters mailed to customers on record. Another is by 25 specific instructions on product labels with telephone PKHKY KEPORTINGTSEEVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052084 1 numbers and department designations. Another is via the 2 Monsanto salesmen, who carried copies of these letters 3 with them, as veil as special labels that he would leave 4 with the customer to affix to the container before 5 shipping it back to Monsanto, 6 Q. Were the letters mailed to customers of the 7 Monsanto products that utilized all or any of the e Ar odors? 9 A, Yes. 10 Q. So a product that had a 1242 Aroclor 11 incorporated in it -- strike that, A customer who 12 purchased a product that had the 1242 Aroclor would get a 13 letter advising that customer that the incinerator was 14 available? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Were there -- do you know whether or not 17 there were other incinerators available in the country 18 besides the one at Monsanto? 19 A. At what point in time? 20 Q, I'm sorry. You started that in 1971, '71 21 through '77? 22 A, Yes. 23 Q. Were there any available prior to that? 24 A. Not toay knowledge. 25 Q. Why did Monsanto build the first incinerator PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052085 'Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe W 1 for incinerating PCBs? 2 A. Primarily because there were none available 3 commercially that ve knew of. In fact, we feel that ve 4 helped develop some of the technology in designing the 5 unit, and ve felt that this was the best way to destroy the liquid PCBs. y Q. Did Monsanto incinerate PCBs for some of its 8 customers at no cost to the customer? 9 A. I believe in some instances, yes. 10 Q. And was there a cost to some of the other 11 customers? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you know what the criterion was in 14 determining whether or not there would be a cost charged 15 to the customer? 16 A. I don't know the details. It had to do with 17 the purchase of material that was tied in with selling 18 price, a package kind of deal. I really don't know the 19 details. 20 Q. Can you tell me the names of some of the 21 companies that had their PCBs incinerated by Monsanto for 22 free? 23 A. None really comes to mind at the moment. 24 There were a few. I know there were some cases, but the 25 names don't come to mind. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052086 Computer Aided Transcription Dy xacno* 3T 1 Q. Is It your understanding that the 2 availability of the incinerator free of charge to a 3 customer was tied or contingent upon the customer 4 purchasing certain Monsanto products in the future? 5 A. That was my understanding# yes. 6 Q. Does that somewhat go along with the idea yj that there's really no free lunch? 8 A. One could say that, yes. 9 Q. Okay. Were the products containing PCBs 10 monitored to determine whether or not dioxins were 11 present? 12 A. At what point in time? 13 Q. At any time. 14 A. At any time? As best I recall, in the middle 15 '60s, gas samples were taken off of Monsanto's incinerator 16 checking for the products of combustion, and dioxins were 17 looked for. And if my memory serves me right, this had to 18 do with the Illinois Environmental Protection Agency and 19 the permitting procedure and confirmation that the unit 20 was meeting the permit requirements. As best I recall, 21 also, no dioxins were found. ` 22 Q. Do you know what the detection limits were at 23 that time? 24 A. In the middle '70s, they were two parts per 25 billion, something like that. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE " WATER PCB-SD0000052087 Computer Aided Transcription by xscribe YZ 1 Q. Do you know if any time later any dioxins 2 were found? 3 A. At no time do I know of any Monsanto data 4 that showed dioxins were found. 5 Q. Whether or not it's true# I don't want to try 6 to get into that# but have you heard allegations made that 7 dioxins are formed in electrical fires where PCBs are 8 present? 9 A. I've heard that allegation# yes. 10 Q. Have you seen any scientific work that would 11 either confirm or refute that? 12 A. I have 3een no work that confirms it# and 13 traditionally, reports are not made for negative results. 14 So# at the same time I have not seen any reports saying it 15 won't happen. 16 Q. Have you seen studies of which the author has 17 claimed it happened? 18 A. Yes# and let me correct my previous answer. 19 There have been allegations of the presence of dioxins in 20 fires in which PCBs were present# but at the same time 21 there were other chemicals present -22 Q. Okay. 23 A. -- like chlorinated bensene. So, there's a 24 scientific question yet as to what is the source# if in 25 truth the dioxins were discovered. ---------------------------------------$EftSY REPORTING SERVICE------------------------------- " WATER PCB-SD0000052088 Computer Aided Transcription by Xsccibe XT 1 Q. Are there some researchers vho have concluded 2 in their own mind, again regardless of whether or not they 3 are right or wrong, it is the combustion of the PCDs which 4 produced the dioxins? 5 A. There are some that claimed that, yes. 6 Q. Do you know the names of some of those 7 researchers? 8 A. Gosh. I'm trying to remember a lady 9 scientist or spokesman for one of the environmental 10 groups 11 Q. Ellen Silbergeld? 12 A. Ellen Silbergeld, yes. She is convinced that 13 they were formed. I'm sure there are others, but their 14 names don't come to mind now. 15 Q. When is the first time that you had heard 16 that an Aroclor was found in the environment? 17 A. I first heard about it in the summer of '69. 18 Q. What was the source of your knowledge? 19 A. My supervisor. 20 Q. And at that time who was that? 21 A. That was Raymond Stratmeyar, 22 S-t-r-a-t-m-e-y-e-r. 23 Q. And did he indicate to you the source of his 24 knowledge? 25 A. As best I remember, he referred to Monsanto's PERRY REPORTING SERVICE ` WATER PCB-SD0000052089 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe 3T 1 medical department along with Monsanto's research people 2 and informed them of these findings in the environment of 3 a material that looked like PCBs. 4 Q. Bad either the medical department or the 5 research people, to your knowledge, informed Mr. 6 Stratmeyer by that time of the results of the Jensen t study? 8 A. I believe that was the topic of discussion. 9 Q. Was the Yusho incident also a topic of 10 discussion at that time, that is, when you first heard 11 about potential for PCBs being in the environment? 12 A. It was not mentioned at that time, not to mo. 13 Q. Were you given a copy of the Jensen study? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Were you given any written material at that 16 time which referenced the Jensen study or the findings of 17 anyone else with regard to PCBs in the environment? 18 A. In 1969, we're talking about? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. Mo. 21 0. Whan ware you first given any documents of 22 any sort which referenced PCBs in the environment? 23 A. In January, 1970. 24 Q. And whatdocuments were you given at that 25 time? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE ' WATER PCB-SD0000052090 nxucu 44auawi wjf AaWi^ys `.3 1 A. It was a collection of articles in a 2 three-ring notebook that the medical department put 3 together, and most of the articles had to do with DDT, but 4 there were references to PCB. I recall a document 5 referring to the Jensen work. As best I remember, it 6 didn't appear to be a finished document. It appeared to 7 be a rough draft, typewritten, with many typographical 8 errors, spelling errors. I do not know the source of 9 that, but that was my first exposure to the instant work. 10 Q. The rough draft that you were given, was it 11 your understanding that that was a rough draft of the 12 Jensen study, or was that a rough draft of someone else's 13 analysis of the Jensen study, or was it some other study 14 all together? 15 A. I was led to believe it was an English 16 translation of the Swedish work. I do not know who the 17 translator was. 18 Q. Do you have some recollection of what the 19 conclusions were as set forth in that study? 20 A. As best I recall, the authors were convinced 21 that what they saw was not DDT, and they were fairly 22 certain, but not totally certain, that it was 23 polychlorinated biphenyls. 24 Q. Did the company -- did they come to any 25 conclusion or offer any opinions as to the source of the PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052091 Computer Aided Transcription by Ascribe 36----- 1 PCBs if in fact, that's what they were? 2 A. No. 3 Q. When is the first time Monsanto did any work 4 to your knowledge on the biodegradability of PCBs? 5 A. Z believe they started in 1969. 6 Q. Prior to -- strike that. Are you aware o 7 any studies appearing in scientific literature addressing 8 the question of whether or not PCBs were biodegrading 9 prior to the beginning of Monsanto's work in 1969? 10 A. I'm not aware of any. 11 Q. Do you know why Monsanto in 1969 looked at 12 the subject or began a study of biodegradability of PCBs? 13 A. I think I do, yeah. 14 Q. Why was that? . 15 A. The reports up to that point kept referring 16 to what Monsanto called Aroclor 1254 and 1260 as being 17 found in the environment. This was puzzling to Monsanto IS because those two materials* although they were not sold 19 in -- they were not the large volume products. There were 20 greater volumes of 1232* 1242* 1248. The puzzling part 21 was why weren't these being reported? So then again* the 22 scientists began some scientific speculation as to could 23 they be degrading? Zf so* what's the mechanism? What 24 creates this loss or this disappearance? So in order to 25 establish that in truth degradation was taking place* they ---- ----- -------------------------PERRY 'REPONT INC SERVICE----------------------------- - WATER PCB-SD0000052092 ruus U UautfUU^>LlUil uy A tiiiCXOfi 4,7 1 went to the laboratory and conducted these tests or 2 started to conduct the tests at that time. 3 Q. Which of the Aroclors did they look at at 4 that time? 5 A. Oh# they looked at 1242# 1248# 1254 and 1260. Q. And do you know who developed the test 1 protocol? 8 A. The test protocol was developed by the 9 detergent industry. At the time there was a scientific 10 dispute about# you may recall# hard detergents and soft 11 detergents. So# that detergent protocol was taken and 12 used on PCBs. 13 Q. Was the study completed with regard to any or 14 all of the various Aroclors? 15 A. The work was eventually terminated# but it 16 was established that some of the PCBs do disappear. 17 Q. Which ones? 18 A. The monochlorals# the dichlorals# many of the 19 trichlorals# some of the four chlorines# but very few of 20 the 5# 6 and higher. 21 Q. With regard to the 1242 and 1248# were they 22 biodegradable or found to be biodegrading? 23 A. Members within that group? 24 Q. Within that group. 25 A. Yes# they were degrading. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052093 wwi/ucj. muau 'UAAdcupuoii oy Asccioe iu 1 Q. I see. Were members within the group not 2 biodegrading? 3 A. That is correct. Yes. 4 Q. Prior to 1969# did Monsanto have reason to 5 believe or did the company believe to your knowledge that 6 various Aroclors ware under soae cirouastances escaping into the environment? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Was itthe thought of the company prior to 10 1969, that those that were escaping to the environment 11 were biodegraded? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Can you tell me what the company's thought 14 was prior to 1969, as to what was occurring with regard to 15 Aroclors that were escaping to the environment? 16 A. Theywere perceived to be so stable 17 chemically and biologically and every other measure 18 available at that time, that they were perceived to be, if 19 I can use an expression, like pebbles on the beach. 20 They're there, but nothing happens. That was the common 21 understanding of these chemicals. 22 Q. When did Monsanto first -- strike that. 23 Prior to 1969, did Monsanto understand that or believe 24 that various Aroclors were getting into the food chain? 25 A. Ho. ----------------------------------- PERKY REPORTING SERVICE----------------------------- -- WATER PCB-SD0000052094 'Computer Aided Transcription t>y xscrYBe JJ 1 Q. It may not be a particularly good analogy. 2 If it's so far-fetched that it doesn't make any sense, let 3 me know. We'll try again. With regard to lead shot and 4 shotgun shells and ducks ending up getting lead poisoning, 5 if PCBs were present in the environment like pebbles on 6 the beach, why didn't Monsanto think it would get into the 7 food chain or was getting into the food chain? 8 MR. SCHINKt I object to the form of the 9 question. It implies that the frequency of PCBs in the 10 environment was equivalent to either shot in birds or the 11 number of pebbles on the beach. I don't think there's 12 been any indication of that, particularly given the kind 13 of product that it was and its intended use. 14 c. (BY MR. CARLSOII) You can answer the 15 question. 16 A. Well, again, it goes back to the 17 understanding that these are so inert, and if they do IS enter the environment in quantities, they just sit in the 19 soil if they are spilledj and the chances of moving from 20 that point into the food ahain were perceived to be so 21 remote, that problems in getting into a food chain were 22 just inconceivable. 23 Q. Prior to 1969, how did Aroclors get into the 24 environment? 25 A. How did they? PERRY REPORTING 8ERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052095 A W w o 1 Q. Yes. 2 A. Primarily through accidental spills. 3 Q. Okay. And secondarily? 4 A. Secondarily, I gues3, since there was no way 5 to measure in very, very low amounts at that time, it's 6 conceivable that they could have gotten into the 7 environment, because it was assumed that there were none 8 there in the water stream, for example. If it was 9 analyzed from a plant, for example, it analyzed and found 10 no PCBs, and they would discharge it. 11 0. I guess I'm not looking right now at whether 12 or not anybody should have found them. What I'm just 13 looking at with hindsight, how did the PCBs get into the 14 environment at that time, by effluent? 15 A. That's one way it could happen. It could be 16 in plant effluent, but nobody knew then. 17 Q. I'm not saying they did, and I'm not trying 18 to imply that they did. I'm just saying that one of the 19 ways, that one way it's possible, and years later you 20 could go out and with the fine tuned instruments, you see 21 it.In your opinion, did that occur prior to 1969? 22 MR. SCBINKs Did what occur? 23 Q. (BY HR. CARLSON) Did PCBs get into the 24 environment as a result of discharge of plant effluent? 25 A. Yes. PERKY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052096 WWMf'UW'tf 4. *4/ ABW & 1M6 . 4X 1 Q. Has Monsanto ever established its own 2 criterion? Porget about DPA and Ellen Silbergeld and lots 3 of others, but has Monsanto ever established its own 4 criterion as to vhat the coapany will use as a safe level 5 of PCBs in the environaent to be? A. Monsanto established early on a goal of 10 7 parts per billion in waste water leaving its plant that 8 was considered to be environmentally acceptable. 9 Q. When was that established? 10 A. When? 11 0. Yes. 12 A. About 1970, early 1970. 13 Q. Did Monsanto ever change that goal? 14 A. I'm not aware of a change in that target, but 15 I do know they better than achieved it. They did better 16 than that, but as a goal, that still seemed to be a 17 responsible one to Monsanto. 18 Q. Do you know vhat work that goal was based on? 19 A. Several things. One is the aedical 20 department's opinion that at those levels, the probability 21 of health risks was acceptable. Another is the ability of 22 aost laboratories to be able to take saaples and analyze 23 for that level and do it consistently so the numbers have 24 true meaning. And the third one was the engineering 25 feasibility of systems that could treat waste waters to PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052097 WATER PCB-SD0000052098 Computer Aided TransccTption by Xscrs.be 12 1 reach such a level; and then, of course, engineering 2 feasibility is coupled with economic feasibility. 3 Q. What potential or possible health risks did 4 the aedical department think may occur if the target was 5 not reached? 6 A. Well, I can't speak for Or. Kelly and his 1 staff personally, but I had many discussions with them. 8 They were concerned with entering into the food chain in 9 the '70s, early '70s, and building up via what is known as 10 bioaccumulation and biomagnification up the food chain. 11 Examples given were such as fish caught by fishermen and 12 consumed, and by that time, as best I recall. Dr. Kelly 13 had reached the conclusion that based on the information 14 he had at the time, that 10 parts per billion is all 15 right. I don't know what else he thought professionally 15 or medically. 17 Q. Did he share with you the particular health 18 risks that he thought may occur if the accumulation was 19 greater -- strike that, if there was an abnormally high 20 accumulation of PCB's in the chain? 21 A. Be just reminded me of the previous 22 discussion? we had about chloracne at certain levels, 23 which varied again from person to person. That's the skin 24 symptom. And he also reminded me if you get enough of 25 these, you get liver damage, and if that liver is damaged -----------------------------------PERRY REPORTING SERVICE----------------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000052099 computer Aide a Transcription oy xscrine 47 1 severely. It could result in death. That was not new 2 information. It was just reaffirmation of what was well 3 known. 4 Q. Was it your understanding that chloracne 5 would occur if someone were consuming food high in PCB 6 content? i A. It's possible if it*s high enough and long 8 enough. 9 Q. Did Dr. Kelly share with you his thoughts as 10 to any criterion that one could look to to determine how 11 much PCBs would have to be present in order to induce 12 liver damage? 13 A. Not that type of criteria, no. He just told 14 me about what he called the early warning symptoms that 15 were noticeable long before the liver was damaged. 16 Q. What were some of those symptoms? 17 A. As far as skin exposure was concerned, time 18 and time again he said look for redness of skin. If 19 you've got that, you're getting too much. That's long 20 before the liver has been damaged. If you continue that 21 chapped skin, red skin, you're going to next see 22 chloracne. That's another warning. 23 As far as breathing too many approximate PCBs, you 24 were cautioned to look for the breathing respiratory 25 symptoms, which were described to me as resembling severe PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052100 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe 44---- 1 chest cold, painful, difficulty breathing, irritated. If 2 you reach that point, you*re breathing too ouch. Step 3 back and get away from that exposure. These were 4 considered to be very good indicators to avoid the 5 exposure, whether by skin or breathing or ingestion, 6 before you get to the point where liver is threatened. < ~ 7 Q. Are you aware of anyone, have you ever been 8 told of anyone ever developing chloracne as a result of 9 eating foods high in PCB content? 10 A. No. Let me correct that. I have an 11 understanding that the Japanese rice bran oil incident, 12 there were reports of chloracne, observed chloracne, which 13 was attributed to this ingestion of the contaminated oil. 14 Q. Has Monsanto formed any opinions within the 15 company or does it hold company opinions with regard to 16 safe levels of PC3s in fish? 17 HR. SCHINK* Currently? He's not employed by 18 Monsanto. 19 Q. (BY HR. CARLSON) Whatever you know. 20 A. I don't really know what their current 21 position is. 22 Q. When you left the company, did you know what 23 their position was? 24 A. At that time we were concurring with the FDA 25 approach. VERITY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052101 Computer XIded~Transcriptiori~by xacnoe 45 1 Q. Do you remember what the acceptable level was 2 at that point? 3 A. As I remember, it was five parts per million 4 in the edible filets. S Q. And can you tell ae why Monsanto thought or < concurred with the BPA that more than that would be Inappropriate? 8 A. Mo, Z can't. 9 Q. Are there PCBs in the American environment 10 that didn't come from Monsanto? 11 A. I personally suspect yes. 12 Q. Do you have some suspicion as to where they 13 may have come from? 14 A. I suspect they came from all over the world 15 carried by wind currents, Japanese sources, European 16 sources. 17 Q. Have there been any works that you have seen 18 addressing that particular issue? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Mere PCBs manufactured inJapan, at any time 21 manufactured pursuant to an agreement between the Japanese 22 company and Monsanto? , 23 A. Tea. 24 Q. How about for PCBsmanufactured inEurope? 25 Mere some of those manufactured by companies who did not PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052102 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe 46 1 have agreements with Monsanto? 2 MR. SCHINK: Excuse me. Could you clarify 3 vhat you mean by "agreement"? 4 Q.(BY MR. CARLSON) Either a licensing 5 agreement, royalties are paid, or just an informal 6 agreement that Monsanto would share technology, 7 A. There were manufacturers in Europe that were 8 producing PCBs independent of Monsanto. 9 Q. Have you done any work in the area of how die 10 cast companies may have added to the PCBs in the 11 environment? 12 A. Have I personally? 13 Q. Yes. Have you done any work on that subject 14 to determine vhat it is about die.cast operations which 15 may result in PCBs getting into the environment? 16 A. I attempted to get familiar with that type of 17 operation by talking to Monsanto individuals whose job it 18 was to be familiar. These are primarily the marketing 19 people and the applications research people. And 1 was 20 made aware of some of the conditions that existed at the 21 die cast plants, of course, the high temperatures 22 associated with molten metals, the equipment that is 23 operated to perform the various tasks required, the fact 24 that this equipment is under pressure. And like all 25 industrial equipment, it will fail occasionally, and you -------------------------------------- PERRY REPORTING" SERVICE------------------------------- ----- - WATER PCB-SD0000052103 Computer Aided Transcription oy xscriDe 47 1 will get the leaks, and it's a question then of coping 2 with that leak, whether you shut down the line and repair, 3 or you capture the spillage, whatever is appropriate for 4 the particular operation. I was aware that cooling waters 5 are involved, and there's always the threat of water and 6 PCBs being mixed, which always causes problems because 7 they are difficult to separate. Z don't know how else to 8 answer the question. 9 Q. I can appreciate that. At some point in time 10 did you form an understanding as to whether or not 11 discharge of cooling water by die cast companies absent 12 PCBs would be permissible? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did Monsanto embark on a program to educate 15 customers using products containing PCBs -- I'm talking 16 about die cast companies now -- on the necessity of 17 containing cooling water which may contain PCBs? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And when did itdo that? 20 MR. SCHINKi I object to the form of the 21 prior question. You say embark upon a program. It 22 implies that there was no prior program. 23 Q. (BY MR. CARLSON) Okay. Sometime in the life 24 of the product I suspect there was no prior program. Go 25 ahead. I guess I was trying to find out when Monsanto PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052104 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe 411 1 started to tell customers utilizing Pydraul in die cast 2 machines of ways to contain -- strike that. What I was 3 looking at, I guess, was when Monsanto began to advise die 4 cast companies utilizing Pydraul with PCBs that waste S water that could have PCBs in it should be contained. A* Well, there was always a reference to keeping 7 an Industrial chemical like Pydraul out of water. This is 8 pretty general, even if the oil would have been mineral 9 oil. So, that kind of advice existed from the first pound 10 sold -- 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. -- as a replacement for a mineral oil in a 13 unit or whatever was used at the time. Beginning in 1970, 14 when it was well established that PCBs were being found in 15 the environment, there was additional emphasis made 16 centering on PCBs, per se, and that took place. That took 17 many forms. The primary one was proper disposal such that 18 it doesn't get into the environment, which is a very broad 19 sentence or statement, but it's an attempt to cover any 20 possible condition of use. So, it's up to the user to 21 decide if his practices will lead to environmental escape, 22 because Monsanto could not be in a position of knowing 23 what its thousands of customers were doing with a material 24 and write the right paragraph to cover them all. 25 Then that branched out into a little more specifics -----------------------------------PEKKY REPORTING "SEHVTCE--------------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000052105 ' Computer Aided transcription by Xscrioe OT 1 in terms of it's recommended that you curb any area that 2 contained a spill, direct the spill to some controllable 3 pit, or capture it in some absorbent material like sawdust 4 or clay or something that can be easily managed, rather 5 than get away from you down sever. Now, that evolved 6 through the years* 1 Q. Okay* Do you recall when Monsanto advised 8 its customers using Pydraul in die cast machines to curb 9 areas and to direct spills to a controllable pit? 10 A. That was taking place in 1970, as best I 11 remember. 12 Q. Okay. Prior to 1970, did Monsanto understand 13 that spills were occurring and hydraulic leaks were 14 occurring which resulted in, on occasion, Pydraul getting 15 into the sewer? 16 MR. SCHINKt Now, you're saying into the 17 sewer, not into the environment, but into a sewer that 18 might go into a treatment plant? 19 MR. CARLSONi That's right. 20 A. I did understood that incidents like that 21 were noted, yes. 22 Qt (BY MR. CARLSON) And you understood, too, 23 that incidents like that were understood to occur in the 24 die cast industry? 25 A. Yes. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE ` WATER PCB-SD0000052106 Computer Aided Transcription by xscribe 30 1 Q. Has there some belief or understanding on 2 Monsanto's part that PCBs that would get into a sever 3 system would not get into the environment? 4 MR. SCHINKt By sewer system, you're 5 referring to a collection system of some sort; is that 6 right, Mr. Carlson? Z object to the fora of the question 7 unless you clarify. 8 Q. (BT MR. CARLSON) Go ahead. 9 A. It was Monsanto's understanding that the 10 frequency of this happening was not so great that it was 11 intolerable. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. It was happening. The amount it was getting 14 out was acceptable. The impact on the environment was not 15 known, but it was assumed that the materials were so inert 16 that that impact would be difficult to measure. 17 It was also believed at that time that when it went 1C to systems such as municipal waste treatment, waste water 19 treatment systems, that the PCBs, being heavy, would end 20 up in sludges, and the sludges in turn would be properly 21 disposed of. Even though the amounts were probably very 22 erratic, it wouldn't happen every day, and the amounts 23 would also be rather small, relatively speaking. So, it 24 was never perceived to be a problem that required any 25 specific and particular attention. -------------------------------------- FERRY REPORTING SERVICE------------------------------- ------- WATER PCB-SD0000052107 uter aj.qu rranscrlpcion oy xscixoe 51 1 Q. What work did Monsanto do to determine that 2 the frequency of such events and the amount getting out 3 was not intolerable? 4 A. This was primarily -- in fact, the only 5 source, really, was the personal contact by Monsanto 6 representatives with the customer, with the user. Q. Zs that particular subject something that 8 Monsanto's salespeople would report on to the company? 9 A. This was a judgment call on the part of the 10 representative of Monsanto. If he perceived it to be 11 noteworthy, he would call his supervisor, or he would put 12 it in what Monsanto calls a call report or trip report. 13 Q. Sure. 14 A. It was not mandated that each and every one 15 of these be reported. It was a judgment call on the part 16 of the Monsanto representative, whether to discuss it or 17 whether just talk to the customer and resolve it there, or 16 whether it was so small that he didn't feel it was an 19 issue. 20 0. Did the trip reports or sales call reports 21 have a particular section designated for them to report on 22 unusual spillages or leakages of hydraulicfluid? 23 A.. MO. 24 Q. Were the salespeople directedto determine 25 the frequency that die cast companies were experiencing PERRY REPORTING 8ERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052108 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe 32 1 hydraulic leaks and having spills? 2 A. I'm not aware of any direction of that kind, 3 that specific kind* I don't know. 4 Q. Is it your understanding that almost all die 5 cast machines experience some leakage during the course of a week of the hydraulic fluid? 1 A, Yes. 8 Q. Was there ever an attempt made prior to 1970, 9 to quantify the amount of leakage from any die cast house 10 prior to 19 -- let's start over. At any time prior to 11 1970, was there ever an attempt by Monsanto to quantify 12 the amount of leakage? 13 A. I'm not aware of any such attempt. 14 Q. Was there any study performed by Monsanto to 15 determine where the Pydraul would end up that did leak 16 from a die cast machine or as a result of a spillage? 17 A. I'm not aware of any 3tudy that addressed 18 that, no. 19 Q. Prior to 1970# did Monsanto conduct any 20 studies to determine what the impact would be of Pydraul 21 being discharged from a die cast company that previously 22 had leaked from a die cast machine or had leaked as a 23 result of spillage? 24 A. I'm not aware of any study like that. 25 Q. Did Monsanto pay for any studies to be ---------------------------------------PERSY-REPORTING SERVICE-------------------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000052109 ^onpulfer Aided Transcription oy Xscri.De 'TT3 1 conducted by others on that particular subject prior to 2 1970? 3 A. I do not know. 4 Q. Did Monsanto at any time ever own any 5 companies whose principal business was conducting either 6 health tests on animals^ either human or animal tests or 7 environmental studies? 8 A. No. . 9 Q. If the PCBs ended up in the sledge in a 10 municipal waste water treatment system as the company 11 believed, how were the municipalities disposing of that 12 sludge? 13 A. It's my understanding that they ended up in 14 landfills. 15 Q. Do you know whether or not that sludge has 16 ever been used as a fertilizer? 17 A. Yes. In a few instances, yes. 18 Q. Do you know when it was first started to be 19 used as a fertiliser? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Do you know whether or not it was being used 22 as a fertiliser in the mid-1960's? 23 A. Z suspect it was. Now, we're talking about 24 sludges from municipal sewagetreatment plants -- 25 Q. That's correct. PERftY reporting Service WATER PCB-SD0000052110 computer Aiuea Transcription oy Asctroe 54 1 A. -- which may or may not have hydraulic fluids 2 In them? 3 Q. That's right. 4 A. All right. 5 Q. I'm not saying they do. I just want to know, 6 you know -- 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. Okay. Do you know, were they being used in 9 the 1960's? Was sludge being used in the 1960's as 10 fertilizer? 11 A. I'm aware, for example, of Milorganite, but I 12 don't know what year that was introduced to the 13 marketplace. I just don't know the dates. 14 Q. To your knowledge, did Monsanto, prior to 15 1969, actually go through that thought process? Now, I 16 appreciate that Monsanto's got a lot of employees, and you 17 can't be responsible for knowing what everybody is 18 thinking about, and I'm not trying to impose that 19 responsibility on you, but to your knowledge, were there 20 people at Monsanto that actually sat down and thought out 21 the process of where spillage of hydraulic fluid in die 22 cast houses ended up? 23 MR. 8CHINK1 Are you talking about spillage 24 that was not properly collected in Wisconsin, or are you 25 talking about spillage that was properly collected by Perry Reporting SERVICE " WATER PCB-SD0000052111 Conputr Aided Transcription by inscribe 5^5 1 using the aeans he discussed? 2 Q. Can you answer the question as it's phrased? 3 HR. SCHINKt I object to the question. 4 Q. (BY MR. CARLSON) Secondly, do you remember 5 the question? 6 A. I believe I do. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. There were individuals in Monsanto that sat 9 down, as you say, and thought about it. 10 Q. Okay. Can you tell me -- 11 A. They addressed thosecases where control was 12 appropriate, the use of sawdust and clay and proper burial 13 and the proper kinds. And there were instances where they 14 were aware it was permitted to enter a municipal sewage 15 system, and they could speculate as to where that might 16 end up. They had no hard data to work from. 17 There were other instances where they frankly 18 didn't know. That went through their thought process. 19 They could come up with examples of excellent control and 20 to the other extreme of sloppy control. And so to answer 21 your question, yes, there were people in Monsanto that 22 went through this thought process, and this is really what 23 led to the conclusion that although most of the customers 24 are doing a good job, there are those few that can't or 25 won't lead us to replace that product. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052112 Computer Aided Transcription by xacnoe BIT 1 Q. Okay. I'm not saying you didn't answer my 2 question^ but I want to refresh my own recollection. 3 Would you read my question back for me. 4 (Reporter read from record as directed.) 5 A. X have a correction to make in that last 6 answer. Tou mentioned 1969 and prior to. X would suggest b that starting in 1969# those thoughts were addressed. 8 Q. (BY NR. CARLSON) Okay. I thought that's 9 what you meant to say# but I wanted to be sure. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. Starting in 1969 then/ who did go 12 through that effort in the company? 13 A. I can recall individuals that were involved. 14 There's Howard Bergen, the director of the business group. 15 Q. I'm sorry. His last name is? 16 A. Bergen, B-e-r-g-e-n. 17 Q. I keep calling it Bergen, so now I will 18 pronounce it right. 19 A. He preferred Bergen, soft *g." A Norman 20 Johnson, who was the marketing manager for the hydraulic 21 fluids; a Bill Richard, the director of research for those 22 fluids. 23 Q. Were those fluids generally categorised as 24 functional fluids? 25 A. They were part of the functional fluids, -------------------------------------- PEftftY REPORTING" SERVICE-------------------------------- - WATER PCB-SD0000052113 Computer Aided Transcription by Escribe *TT 1 which included hydraulic fluids as one category. 2 Q. Okay. Was Bill Richard director of research 3 for the hydraulic fluids? 4 A. For functional fluids. 5 Q. For functional fluids. A. How, working for Dr. Richard were individuals like Lou Stark. Z remember Mr. Stark was involved. So, 8 the names I have given you represent the business 9 function, the marketing function, the research function. 10 Q. Okay. Prior to 1970, was it generally 11 permissible -- and every time I use generally,* I'm going 12 to catch an objection, so I'll stipulate it will help me 13 into the subject. Was it generally permissible for 14 spilled hydraulic fluids to be flushed down storm sewer 15 drains? 16 MR. SCHINKi I object to the form of the 17 question. Are you talking about was it lawful in terms of 18 the Refuse Act, you're saying? 19 MR. CARLSONI Tea. 20 MR. SCHINKi You're asking for a legal 21 conclusion. Z don't think he's qualified to give one. 22 A. Zt's ay understanding prior to *70, before 23 EPA, states had statutes which described the kinds of 24 material permitted into public waterways in the states. 25 Industrial chemicals as a group were generally outlawed PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052114 Computer Aided Transcription-by-XscrTbe 5 1 throughout the 48 states at a time, so a material like a 2 hydraulic fluid would be an industrial chemical that just 3 shouldn't be flushed down the sewer. 4 0. (BY HR. CARLSON) Okay. 5 A. Generally. < Q. Did you have -- strike that. Do you have an understanding of acceptable separation techniques used in 8 the die cast company to separate hydraulic oils from waste 9 water? 10 NR. SCHINIC: When? 11 Q. (BY MR. CARLSON) Any time prior to 1970. 12 A. The only technique I'm aware of prior to 13 1970, was gravitation where the heavier fluid would sink 14 to the bottom and have a water layer on top, and you 15 separate the two that way. 16 Q. Prior to 1970, did Monsanto recommend to its 17 customers utilizing a secondary or other separation 18 technique to separate PCBs from the water? 19 A. I'm not aware of any. 20 0. In those circumstances where there's a 21 mixture of kinds of oil that have, as a result of leakage 22 or spillage, worked their way into the waste water of a 23 plant, and there's an attempt to separate by skimming, 24 would the PCBs stay with the water? 25 A. To a degree. Some PCBs are in the water --------------- PEKRI REPORTING" SERVICE------------------------------ ------- WATER PCB-SD0000052115 Computer Aided Transcription Dy Xscrioe SJ 1 layers in tbs parts per billion range, but they would not 2 be visible to the naked eye. 3 Q. PCBs are heavier than water? 4 A. Yes 5 Q. Would soae of the PCBs be suspended in oil? 6 A. Zf there's -- you're talking now Mineral oil? Q. Yes. 8 A. If there's mineral oil, they would be very 9 much in the oil. They blend very perfectly. 10 Q. Okay. Who was responsible for marketing o 11 Pydraul F-9 and Pydraul 312 from '65 through '71? 12 A. The only individual I know was Norman 13 Johnson. I do not know who his predecessor was. 14 0. Without going into the details,.it may become 15 of interest to me later on, but right now were there other 16 fluids utilizing PCBs other than the hydraulic fluids --17 strike that. Prior to 1969, were there customers of 18 Monsanto using fluids utilizing PCBs which were given 19 specific directions with regard to oleanup -- strike that. 20 The question is never going to come out right. I'll try 21 one more time. Well, let me approach it this way. what 22 are some of the other liquids Monsanto manufactured which 23 utilized PCBs prior to '69? 24 A. Well, there were liquids used in turbines, 25 gas turbines, liquids used in vacuum pumps, liquids used PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052116 AiUttu i'caascciptiufl oy Aocixuii 6Q 1 in electrical equipment, as veil as liquids used in heat 2 transfer assistance. I believe I've covered them all. 3 Q. Okay. Mere the liquids with PCBs utilized in 4 gas turbines prior to 1969, to your knowledge, did 5 Monsanto conduct studies as to whether or not the PCBs 6 used in that circumstance would potentially get out into the environment? 8 A* Z don't know of any formal study other than 9 the precautions about skin and breathing and the like that 10 called for responsible handling and use and disposal. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. I don't know if that's what you had in mind. 13 Q. That's close. Is that answer also true with 14 regard to liquids used in heat transfer systems? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And the samewould be true with regard to 17 vacuum pumps? 19 A. Yes. 19 Q. And electricalequipment? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Prior to 1969, and for lack of a better way 22 of approaching it, when you use the terminology that you 23 had used earlier, I think it was sloppy controls and very 24 tight controls. The terminology is fine. What would 25 Monsanto's criterion be as to what would be an acceptably ------------------------ ------------- PERRY REPORTING SERVICE!------------------------------------ WATER PCB-SD0000052117 computer ATaea TranscrxptionHby Xscrioe 6T 1 tight control versus one vhich was unacceptable? We're 2 talking about now with regard to PCBs that get into the 3 waste water system. 4 A. I don't know that Monsanto had any 5 quantifiable criteria in mind in terms of so many pounds 6 or what have you# and Monsanto was never in a position to 7 know all of the circumstances that surrounded each 8 customer's particular situation. So it would be very 9 difficult to come up with a Monsanto concept of what's 10 acceptable. It depends on the total situation. 11 If the customer, as an example, had an agreement 12 with the local sewage treatment plant to discharge a given 13 amount of waste, and the local treatment plant handled it 14 properly, used the proper landfills or whatever, that 15 would be one set of circumstances that would call for *X" 16 pounds of material could go into the system. In another 17 situation where there just was no such agreement or the 18 local treatment plant could not tolerate it for reasons 19 that are unique to them, a much lesser amount would have 20 to serve as acceptable. So, it's a long way of going 21 around saying that I'm not aware of Monsanto, first of 22 all, being in a position to quantify it. So, no such 23 number ever evolved. 24 Q. Okay. Each case would have to be judged 25 independently? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052118 wjr A0W4 Q4 1 A. Correct. Yes. 2 Q. Are there die cast companies, other than my 3 client, that you're aware of, that you have heard about, 4 which have had to remove soil from around the premises 5 because of PCB content? 6 A. This is the first one Z've heard of and the 7 only one I've heard of. 8 Q. Okay. Are there any die cast companies 9 you're aware of, manufacturers who are using die cast 10 systems as a part of the manufacturing operation which 11 have incurred liability to either a state or to the 12 Federal Government as the result of discharge of PCBs? 13 MR. SCHINK: Are you talking about deliberate 14 discharges like the one involved in this case, deliberate 15 or accidental? Otherwise, I object to the form of the 16 question. 17 MR. CARLSOH: You can make your objection to 18 the form of the question, and the question stands as it's 19 phrased. 20 MR. SCHINKs He wants to know either a 21 deliberate discharge or an accidental discharge. 22 Maybe you want to read the question back. 23 (Reporter read from record as directed.) 24 MR. SCHINKi I don't know whether he knows 25 whether you incurred liability. -----------------------------------PKKRY'~KEPORTING "SERVICE---------------------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000052119 computer Aided Transcription oy Xacrloe 1 MR. CARLSON: Yeah, I know. I appreciate 2 that. 3 A. I'm kind o fuzzy. 4 Q. (BY MR. CARLSON) You can ask me. I'll 5 rephrase the question if you've got a problem, and I'm willing to admit the phrasing of that question isn't the greatest, but -- 8 A. All right. I'm not aware of all the details 9 of the Milwaukee Harbor situation. 10 Q. That's an example where there was a problem? 11 A. There were some cleanup possibilities talked 12 about. I don't know whether they had a die casting 13 operation inside that operation, so I'm kind of fuzzy in 14 terns of answering your question. Other than that, I 15 don't know of any other die casting related situation. 16 Q. Would it be more correct to say you don't 17 know with regard to my client what its responsibilities or 18 liabilities have been in the past, do you? 19 MR. 8CHINKi You have to answer audibly. 20 Q. (BY HR. CARLSON) You have to answer yes or 21 no. 22 A. I'm sorry. No, I don't. 23 Q. 8o when you say, "I'm not aware of any other 24 situation," actually what you're saying is, "I'm not aware 25 of any situation where a die cast company has incurred Perry reporting service ~ WATER PCB-SD0000052120 Conputer Aided Transcription by Xscribe 64 1 liability to either a state or to a governmental agency as 2 a result of discharge of PCB's? 3 A. That's corrects 4 Q* Okay. Other thanthe translation of the 5 Jensen study, have you reviewed any other studies which 6 addressed the question of potential adverse health effects 1 of PCB's? Strike that. Have you reviewed any studies 8 addressing the question of potential adverse health 9 effects of PCB's? 10 A. Yes, I have. 11 Q. Okay. Can you tellme of thosethat you have 12 read? 13 A. There's a report that was issued by Dr. 14 Risebrough, University of California at Berkeley, in which 15 he claimed that his study shoved that the brown pelicans 16 off the southern coast of California were being affected 17 by PCBs. There was a report issued out of Cornell 18 University by Dr. Peacall, P-e-a-c-a-1-1. As I remember 19 there, he was alleging that the PCBs were harming wild 20 birds, as I remember, the peregrine falcon in particular. 21 There were reports that came out of an incident 22 that occurred in the North Sea up near Great Britain 23 involving seals and sea birds, sea fowl. There was a 24 report issued out of the Commercial Fisheries Laboratory 25 in Gulf Breeze, Plorida, in which they reported that the --------------------------------- FERRY REPORTING SERVICE------------------------------ ~ WATER PCB-SD0000052121 Computer Aided Tcanscription by Xscribe 65 1 juvenile ahrlap were extremely sensitive to PCBs. At the 2 moment I can't think of any more. 3 Q. Any human health studies that you have 4 reviewed? 5 MR. 8CHIMK1 You're asking now whether they 6 showed adverse effects or no effects? * MR. CARLSONt That's right. I'm not looking 8 just for -- 9 A. I'm aware of some epidemiology studies made 10 on workers in the electrical equipment industry that were 11 exposed to PCBs in their places of employment. I have to 12 confess I haven't read the reports, per se. I have just 13 heard of these reports. I was informed that they were 14 conducted. I'm aware, of course, of Monsanto's animal 15 studies that were sponsored by Monsanto. 16 Q. (BY MR. CARLSON) Have you read those? 17 A. I'm 3orry? 18 Q. Have you read those? 19 A. The Monsanto's? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. I have read the summaries. I have not read 22 the full technical report. 23 Q. Okay. Any others? 24 A. I can't recall at the moment any other 25 reports that I've seen or have heard of. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052122 Computer Aided Transcription by XscrTbe 66 1 Q. Has Monsanto, to your knowledge, accepted 2 that the presence of PCBs in the environment has damaged 3 reproduction of certain birds? 4 HR. SCHINKi At what level? 5* HR. CARLSONi At any level. 6 MR. SCHINKi Object! vague. 7 A. Monsanto, because of its leghorn chicken 8 studies and the results from those studies, concluded that 9 birds can have problems with eggs and reproduction when 10 exposed to PCBs. The levels are unknown regarding wild 11 birds. 12 The studies that were reported in early '70s by 13 investigators such as Peacall and Risebrough, I later was 14 informed by Government authorities in Patuxet, Maryland, 15 and they published a report on this, that the problem 16 chemical there was for DDT, not the PCB. So, there is no 17 good, hard data associating PCEs with wild birds, but 18 Monsanto's conclusion based on the chicken study is that 19 it's very likely that wild birds could be harmed. 20 0. (BY MR. CARLSON) It's hard to find birds 21 that aren't exposed to the DDT alone or the PCBs alone? 22 A. That is correct. 23 Q. Has anybody done any work to determine 24 whether there's a synergistic effect of DDT with PCBs or 25 vice versa? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052123 __ compucer Aided Transcription oy Xscrioe 67 1 A. I'm not aware of any. 2 Q. Do you know if Monsanto agrees or disagrees 3 with the idea that the gulf shrimp is particularly 4 sensitive to PCBs? 5 A. Monsanto aocepted that study and findings of 6 that study. There's no reason not to. T Q. Did the Commercial Fisheries Laboratory study 8 address the effects of PCBs on those shrimp that were 9 sensitive? What were the effects of PCB's? 10 A. Well, it killed them. 11 C. Okay. In the study which addressed the 12 question of PCBs and seals, apparently looking at what 13 occurred in the North Sea, what was the effect of PCB's on 14 the seals there? 15 A. As I understand it, they found bodies of dead 16 seals washed up on the shores. The seals were emaciated, 17 and there were many pups involved. The tissues were 18 analyzed, and PCBs were found, so PCBs were the suspect. 19 The last I recall is that the authorities in charge 20 of that study concluded that it's very likely that the 21 seals, especially the new mothers, were not getting enough 22 nourishment from wherever their surroundings were) and, 23 therefore, they became emaciated, and this is why the pups 24 were in turn affected. They couldn't nurse. And then 25 unfortunately, they found themselves in a violent sea PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052124 coupucec Aiaa Transcription oy xscnoe 68 1 storm. All of those impacts combined killed them. That's 2 my understanding of the final analysis. 3 Q. Was there some relationship thought to exist 4 between the levels of the PCBs and the eventual death? 5 A. No. There was no relationship established, 6 because what had happened, they were so emaciated and lost 1 so much weight, that it was difficult to come up with a 8 number that says so many PCBs were present in the living, 9 healthy animal to start with. They just could not make 10 any good conclusions from their data. 11 Q. Did they make some conclusions, regardless of 12 whether or not they were good? 13 A. Well, like I said earlier, they concluded 14 that it was a lack of food that led to malnutrition, and 15 then the storm cane along, and that killed them. 16 Q. Was the lack of food related, at least in the 17 author of the study's mind, to the presence of PCBs? 18 A. No. They didn't associate that with PCBs. 19 Q. Were the presence of the PCBs coincidental to 20 the lack of food? I'm not talking about specifically what 21 happened. What was being reported as happened, though, 22 was that coincidental to what had occurred in the North 23 8ea? 24 A. That's the conclusion, yes. 25 Q. As expressed by those authors? -----------------------------------PERRY REPORTING SERVICE------------------------------ WATER PCB-SD0000052125 A4 a 4 A UU W V 4 2 4 ** W 4. 4WV> 1 A. Yes. *) 0. The Monsanto animal studies began when? And 3 let me back up. Monsanto, I presume -- and I know they 4 conducted tests periodically, you know, skin type tests on 5 animals on PCBs. A. Yes. Q. Did Monsanto conduct any studies looking at 8 the long-term effect of exposure to PCBs in the food chain 9 of the animals? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And when did they start doing that? 12 A. They started about 1968, with some studies to 13 establish feeding levels for the long-term study. 14 Q. Who actually was doing that work? 15 A. Industrial Bio TestLaboratories, Northbrook, 16 Illinois. 17 Q. Were they doing that on contract to Monsanto? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you know who owned Industrial Bio Test at 20 that time? 21 A. I believe it was a NALCO company, M-A-L-C-O. 22 Q. Do you know who owned HALCO? 23 A. Ho, I don't. 24 Q. What was Industrial Bio Test -- strike that. 25 To your knowledge, was there a contract entered into PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052126 AlUtiU uy Aotaw /u between Monsanto and Industrial Bio Test, a written contract? 3 A. I've never seen one. 4 Q. What is your understanding of specifically 5 what Industrial Bio Test was to do originally when they 4 were first commissioned to do this study? I think you * already answered that for me, and if I'm being repetitive, 8 I apologize. I'a looking really what their first charge 9 was. 10 A. Their first charge? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. Was to treat a small group of animals at as 13 high a dose level as possible without killing the animal 14 to help establish a level that could later be fed to 15 another group of test animals for their lifetime, and have 16 as many survivors as possible to be able to study the 17 effects. 18 Q. Okay. And the specific animal being looked 19 at was the chicken? 20 A. It was the white rat, the beagle dog, and the 21 leghorn chicken. 22 Q. Did Industrial Bio Test determine the amount 23 that could be fed to each of the animals and to the bird without killing them? A. They determined an amount that would give -----------------------------------FEH'RY REPORT IHG TTBR7TCE----------------------------- --- WATER PCB-SD0000052127 wu^ucdi: <uau xcanscrxpcxon oy Aaccxoe il 1 this survival rate that was suitable for a good study. 2 Q. Okay. Do you know about how long it took 3 theia to arrive at these numbers? 4 A. That*a called a 90-day study. So given a 5 normal follow-up, I would suggest that it took them about 6 four months. Q. Okay. And then what was done with that data? 8 A. That data then was used to establish feeding 9 levels for the. two-year rat study and the 18-month dog 10 study, and I believe it was 18 months for the chicken 11 study. 12 0. Were the results of the original work, that 13 is, the results of the 90-day study, published in a report 14 to Monsanto? 15 A. There is a report to Monsanto, yes. 16 Q. Okay. And do you know, were the two-year, 17 18-month and 18-month studies carried out? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And do you know what the results were 20 generally with regard to those studies? 21 A. Zn the rat studies, the higher chlorinated 22 types of FCBs at the high dose level, which was 100 parts 23 per million in their total daily diet, lifetime diet, 24 produced enlarged livers and decreased gain in weight, and 25 had some reproduction problems in terms of number of pups PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052128 Aiao 'iianficcipcioa oy Ascuoe 72 1 that were born. 2 In the chicken study, they seemed to tolerate the 3 higher chlorinated PCBs better. The effect was noted with 4 the lower chlorinated PCB, the 1242, end soaewhere between 5 the one and 10 part per aillion feeding level there was an C effect on the egg shell thickness and on the hatchability of the eggs* The tests were then reran, and it was 8 established that at about three parts per Billion in the 9 diet of the chicken, this effect on eggs was noted. So, 10 it took less than three parts per aillion to be 11 acceptable. 12 HR. SCHINKj Three parts per million? 13 A. Per million, yes. In the dogs, the dogs 14 seeaed to suffer from gastric problems. As I remember, 15 they had at the higher levels bleeding ulcers or the 16 equivalent of that. That's all I remember about the dog 17 study. 10 Q. (BY MR. CARLSON) Do you know if they seemed 19 to tolerate the higher chlorinated or the lower 20 chlorinated Aroclors better? 21 A. I * a sorry? 22 Q. Z'a talking about the dogs now. Did they 23 seea to tolerate the higher or the lower chlorinated ~ 24 A. There didn't seea to be that auch difference 25 in the materials tested. ---------------------------- :--TERRY REPORT INC" SERVICE--------------------------- ----- WATER PCB-SD0000052129 ww 4 a 44 uiaw a V4 **JL v4 /3 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. But it was the higher doses that, of course, 3 gave that effect. 4 Q. In response to the results of this study, did 5 Monsanto take any specific action with regard to either 6 continuing or discontinuing sales of FCB products or * advice given to customers handling PCB products? 8 A* So. This data confirmed that what we had 9 been saying on the labels and literature and all was still 10 appropriate. 11 Q. Okay. And that study was completed when? 12 A. The final reports were available in *71 or 13 '72. 14 Q. To your knowledge, has any human health 15 researcher opined that exposure to PCBs has or causes any 16 particular form of cancer? 17 A. I've read and heard that allegation. I have 18 seen no formal report supporting that. 19 Q. Where have you read the allegation? 20 A. Mostly in the popular press. 21 Q. The press has an interesting role I'm sure 22 that we're all aware of with regard to industrial 23 chemicals, but do you have some recollection of what 24 Btudies or what it was that the press was latching on to 25 that they used to -- or the press used to support the PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052130 computer Aided transcription Dy xscra.be 1 stories that there was a cause/effect demonstrated? 2 MR. SCHINKx You're talking now about human 3 health? 4 MR. CARLSONx That's right, human health. 5 A. I don't recall any specific reports or 6 specific person mentioned. It is a belief held by some 7 scientists. They have expressed this belief in meetings. 8 The press picked it up, and it's been ay observation that 9 now any time a PCB article appears in the popular press, 10 in the newspapers, it's followed by the word "cancer," the 11 cancer-causing chemical or a probable cancer causer; but 12 anyway, the word "Cancer" is associated with PCBs, but I 13 don't recall any scientific report that deals with human 14 cancer and PCBs. 15 Q. (BY MR. CARLSOH) Do you recall any case 16 reports in which the author linked exposure to PCBs and 17 cancer? 1G A. Case reports? 19 Q. Do you recall any epidemiological work such 20 as you referenced for me with regard to the electrical 21 workers? 22 A. I don't recall any. 23 Q. Can you give me the names of some of the 24 scientists that you have heard express the opinion or have 25 read that have expressed the opinion that there's a --------------------:-------------- PERRY REPORTIRG SERVICE--------------------------- ----- WATER PCB-SD0000052131 v.uu aa a< u i'(4ac[i^tioa oy Aficuoe <75 1 cause-effect relationship between exposure to PCBs and 2 cancer? 3 A. This Mrs, Silbergeld stands out in my mind. 4 There are others, but I really can't remember. Barry 5 Commoner is another name that comes to mind. There are at times, as I remember, some of Nr. Ralph Nader's team that made statements of this type. I've forgotten their names 8 now. I just can't think of them anymore. 9 C. Do you have some understanding or have you 10 heard what these people are basing their contentions on? 11 A. I don't know what they're basing them on. 12 Q. Other than the ~ strike that. Did Biotest 13 do the second stage of the study that you have referenced 14 for me? 15 A. The chicken study? 16 Q. Yes, the chicken, rat and dog. 17 A. They did all those studies, yes. 18 Q. Did all of them. Okay. Has Monsanto 19 commissioned any other animal studies looking at 20 potentially adverse health effects of PCB's? 21 A. Z wasn't involved, but I understand that 22 there was a study placed somewhere with Monsanto 23 companies, and that's all I personally know. 24 Q. Has it your understanding that Monsanto paid 25 for the study or did it in-house or -- PERRY REPORTING SERVICfe WATER PCB-SD0000052132 computes Aide a Transcription oy iscnoe 76 1 A. No, they did not do it in-house. It was done 2 elsewhere. 3 Q. Any idea what part of the country it was done 4 in, or perhaps what laboratory it was? 5 A* Just oast is all I reaeaber. < Q. Do you reaeaber when that was? "7 A. Zt was after 1977, 1980. 8 Q. And have you heard just in general teras what 9 the results of that study were? 10 A. No, I haven't. I don't know either the 11 conditions of the test or the results. 12 Q. At the tirae Monsanto decided to discontinue 13 oanufacturing and sale of Pydraul 312 that contained -- I 14 think it vaG what, Aroclor 1242, wasn't it? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you agree with that decision or disagree? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Was in part your agreement based on any 19 concerns that you had with regard to the effect of 20 Aroclors on the environaent? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And was italso in partbased onconcerns you 23 had about potentialor at least possiblehealth effects of 24 the Aroclor? 25 A. Yes. KEFUKTiNU SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052133 <Coaputer Aided Transcription by Xacrxoe 77 1 Q. And was the information you had at your 2 disposal at that tine that allowed you to cone to an 3 opinionr that in this particular case you agreed with 4 Monsanto's action that was developed between 1969 and 5 whenever that decision was nade? 6 A. Tea. 7 Q. Zf Monsanto solely* as the result of the 8 Jensen work in 1966* had decided to discontinue 9 manufacturing and sale of Pydraul 312 with the 1242 10 Aroclor* would you have disagreed with the decision based 11 on that information? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. You would have thought it appropriate to have 14 more data available before either agreeing or disagreeing? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Was Monsanto -- strike that. Do you know 17 when Monsanto was first aware of the Swedish study? 18 A. The Swedish study? 19 Q. Tes* the Jensen study. 20 A. It's my understanding we were first aware of 21 it in late '66* early '67. 22 Q. It may be difficult to pin down* but do you 23 have some idea or do you have some understanding of who it 24 was at Monsanto that first became aware of the study? 25 A. I have an understanding. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052134 1 Q Who was It? 2 A. The best I recall, there was a Monsanto 3 representative in the United Kingdom named Don Cameron, 4 who was marketing sales representative, heard about a 5 report from somewhere -- I don't know where -- that 6 referred to chlorinated biphenol, spelled p-h-e-n-o-1 7 instead of p-h-e-n-y-1. And at first the thought was that 8 this is an entirely different chemical than the one we 9 were selling, but as I understood it, Mr. Cameron then 10 arranged through the Swedish Monsanto representative to 11 get a copy of that report, which in turn was translated, 12 and this is the report I mentioned earlier. It finally 13 got to Monsanto-St. Louis, like I said, late '66, early 14 '57. 15 Q. Okay. 15 THE WITNESSi Can we take a break? 17 MR. CARLSON: Oh, sure. This is not an 18 endurance contest. I didn't mean to imply that it was. 19 (A brief recess was taken.) 20 Q. (BY MR. CARLSON) When we were discussing 21 PCBs found in the environment, found in the food chain, I 22 guess one of the questions that comes to my mind is how do 23 birds endup with PCBs in their tissue? Zn other words, 24 are they eating foods that have PCBs in them, or are they 25 getting it from the dirt? Do you have some understanding? -----------------------------------PERRY "REPORTING"SERVICE---------------------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000052135 Computer Aided transcription Dy xscnoe T? 1 A. 1*11 give you my understanding. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. The birds that seem to have the most trouble 4 with PCBs or chemicals like PCBs are the fish-eating S birds, falcons and the like, and the pelicans. And the 6 way this happens is that PCB, once It finds its way into 7 waterways, is, of course, present in that water. Then you 8 have the different species of aquatic life from the water 9 on up to the big fish. The big fish eat the little fish. 10 The little fish eat the smaller ones. Each one has soae 11 PCBs in it started from the water flea, which iE the 12 aaphnea. You may have heard of it. 13 Anyway, the PCB accumulates in each creature and 14 concentrates in the fatty tissue of that creature such 15 that when it's eaten, all the PCBs go into the next 16 creature. So by the time you get to the top of the food 17 chain, the PCBs have been concentrated, sometimes quite 18 dramatically. They have found -- some studies show that 19 75,000 times more PCBs are in the fish than there was in 20 the water that the fish lived in. 21 So, that fish now has the PCBs in it. It*s eaten 22 by the bird, pelican or falcon or hawk. Zt in turn builds 23 it up in its tissues. Some of it is eliminated. Some of 24 it is retained. Some of it is metabolized, and it then 25 begins to affect its reproduction, its ability to use PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052136 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe --80 1 calcium properly to make the egg shells and so on. That's 2 my understanding of how it can happen in the food chain. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. If it is dirt* as you indicated earlier# it's 5 really a dirt particle that gets into the water and is suspended in the water# gets into the fish gills# and the PCB off of that dirt then is extracted by the fish gill# 8 gets into the bloodstreaa that way# in addition to the 9 eating process. 10 Q. Okay. PCBs aren't being picked up by plant 11 roots, are they? 12 A. I haven't heard of any plants that pick up 13 PCBs, except that they were found in the pine needles in 14 Sweden, which many investigators suspect were from fallout 15 rather than from the soil. 16 Q. Has Monsanto undertaken some studies to 17 determine either where in the world or where in this 18 country most of the PCB problem is? 19 A. NO. 20 MR. SCHINKt What do you mean by "problem,* 21 the prasenoe? 22 Q. (BY MR. CARLSON) When we ware talking about 23 a targat of 10 parts par billion in discharge of waste 24 water as being an acceptable limit# first of all# am I 25 correctly stating Monsanto's position at the time you were ---------------------------------- PERRY REPORTING SERVICE----------------------------- --- WATER PCB-SD0000052137 Computer Aided"Transcnpf ion "by Xscrioe 81 1 with the company? 2 A. Yeah/ where discharged. It's not into the 3 environment. It's into a sewer system, leaving the plant 4 In the sewer system. 5 0. All right. Leaving the plant in the sewer 6 system. Zs there or was there an expectation that 7 further, after the material left the plant, it would then 8 result in the PCBs either being filtered out or breaking 9 down? 10 A. Yes. Those thoughts were considered, yes. 11 Q. We get into the subject of the municipal or 12 treatment of municipal sewage. 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. Okay. Has there been work done which shows 15 that this does or does not occur? 16 A. What doesn'toccur? 17 Q. That treatment of municipal sewage will cause 18 biodegradation of PCBs. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. All right. And does it? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. When was that determined? 23 A. The biodegradation studies that Monsanto 24 conducted simulated in the laboratory what happens in a 25 municipal treatment plant that uses bacteria to digest the PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052138 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscri.be 82 1 sludge. In fact, the culture for these studies was 2 obtained from the St. Louis municipal sewage plant, taken 3 to the laboratory, and innoculated each of the test stands 4 for each of the products, and that demonstrated that yes, 5 bacteria from the treatment plant do digest some of the 6 PCBs. And also, they demonstrated during the analyses . 7 that the PCBs had adhered to the particles in that test 8 system. 9 Q. Do the remainder of the PCBs, those that were 10 not digested, adhere to the particles? 11 A. Yes. 12 0. And when was that done? When was the work 13 completed on that? 14 A. It was completed in early *72. 15 Q. From this could I infer that if companies 16 using the PC5 hydraulic fluid had a waste water treatment 17 plant on their premises comparable to a municipal plant, 18 and could contain PCBs and treat them as the 19 municipalities were doing, that Pydraul with the PCBs 20 would still be a viable product today? 21 A. I suspect not, because the PCBs that are not 22 degraded would still be detectable with the analytical 23 methods now available, and as long as they are detected, 24 that just doesn't seem to be acceptable anymore. PCBs are 25 just not desirable. -----------------------------------PERRY REPORTING SERVICE---------------------------- --- WATER PCB-SD0000052139 Computer Aidea Transcription oy Xscnoe ST 1 Q. Okay. Because of the potential impact on the 2 environment? 3 A. That's the probability of an impact, is 4 really the thought that controls this undesirability of 5 PCB1 a. Q. Prior to 1969# did Monsanto think that all 7 die cast waste water discharge was going into a sever 8 system where there would be municipal treatment of the 9 water? 10 A. Ho. Many did# but there are others that did 11 not. 12 0. What were the other -- I hate to use the word 13 "acceptable#" but I guess I will# either acceptable or 14 common ways that the waste was being discharged by die 15 cast companies prior to '69? 16 A. Well# I understand that some companies had 17 their own discharge system before they discharged to a 18 local stream# and some thought that they controlled the 19 losses to the point where the water that did get sway 20 could be discharged without any further treatment. Just 21 release it to the nearest creek bed and so on. And then 22 there were soae that# as I said earlier# either could not 23 or did not understand the need to be careful# and they 24 would discharge. 25 Q. Por a die cast company that was skimming off PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052140 ''wxf'Mos* /vo w 1. AU8 046 1 oil# okay, mineral oil from the water, from waste water, 2 and then seeing if one saw the remaining water in the 3 tank, if it's relatively clear, typically would that, 4 prior to 1969, be thought to be waste water which could he 5 discharged into a local ditch or a stream bed? 6 NR. SCHZHKt Now, is this a die caster using " 7 Pydraul or not? e NR. CARLSON* Yeah, Pydraul 312. 9 MR. SCHINKs Along with mineral oil? 10 MR. CARLSON* No, not along with, but mineral n oils in the plants that have gotten into that same waste 12 water. 13 MR. SCHINKt And is this an open tank? 14 What's the depth of the tank? I object to the form of the 15 question. 16 Q. (BY MR. CARLSON) Go ahead. 17 A. Prior to 1969? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. Any PCB type fluids that were with water 20 would be visible, because it would form a separate layer, 21 and the two would be separated. In fact, there was 22 literature that told the customer how to reclaim that 23 hydraulic fluid at the bottom of the water and reuse it to 24 save himself some money. 25 Q. Okay. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052141 Computer Sided Transcription by Xscrine 1 A. Now, there's an oil machine that you +2 mentioned. Mineral oil would float. You remove that, and 3 if you looked at the water and didn't see a bottom layer, 4 that would tell you that there were no heavy PCB hydraulic 5 fluids present. There was none present. 6 Q. And if you saw that bottom layer? 7 A. If you saw that bottom layer, you better be 8 careful. It very likely has PCB because it is heavy, 9 unless it's a mud or metal waste or some other types of 10 material. You have to determine that. 11 Q. Did Monsanto, prior to '69, know the various 12 methods that die cast companies were using to treat their 13 waste water? 14 A. In most cases, the Monsanto sales 15 representative knew quite a bit about the operation, 16 because they have -- that was a responsibility. "Know 17 your customers and his operations so you can help them 18 better to use your product, continue to use our product," 19 that sort of thing. 8o, most of them were quite familiar 20 with the operation. How, this does not mean that he knew 21 every minute of the day what was taking place. 22 Q. Oh, no. But he knew generally how the plant 23 plant worked? 24 A. Yes, Yes. 25 Q. And if a plant had a procedure for separating PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052142 computer Aiaaa Transcripcion oy xeccioe 36 1 mineral oils from waste water, but didn't have a separate 2 procedure for separating waste water from Pydraul, would 3 that salesman then recommend that another separation 4 system be employed? 5 A. Very likely, yes, sir, because that fluid that was being lost was higher cost than that oil that T they were recovering. It would behoove them to recover 8 that heavier layer. 9 Q. Okay. And in some of your earlier literature 10 with Pydraul, that's set out? 11 A. Yes. 12 C. Would it be recommended to the customer as a 13 cost savings measure that you could reclaim that Pydraul 14 fluid and reuse it in your system? 15 A. Oh, yes, because Pydrauls are more expensive 16 than other competitive fluids. This is one way to balance 17 out the costs. 18 Q. Would the recommendation have been made for 19 any other reason? 20 A. Well, it's the overridingreason, "Don't put 21 industrial chemicals down the sewer." 22 Q. Do you know if, in fact,yoursalespeople 23 calling on customers did make those recommendations to die 24 cast companies? 25 A. Yeah. "PERRY REPORTING" SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052143 Computer Aided Transcription by ~Xscribe <87 1 Q. Are you aware of any particular instance 2 where that occurred? 3 A. It was throughout the industry. There is no 4 one case that stands out. 5 Q. I appreciate that, and that may have been. 6 Z'a not saying it wasn't. I'm just wondering if you can :~y point ma to a situation where you know, in fact, that 8 occurred? 9 A. Ho. I don't remember any salesman telling me 10 specifically a customer by name, no. This was sort of 11 like breathing. They do it all the time. 12 Q. Were salesmen directed to tell their 13 customers this? 14 A. Yes. That's part of their training, to sell 15 this product. 16 Q. And they were directed to tell the customers 17 to put in a separation system which would draw out the 18 Pydraul that had been lost through leakage or spillage 19 from the waste water? 20 A. They were directed to discuss with the 21 customer the advantages of doing so and sharing with them 22 some ideas, but let the customer design his system, 23 depending on his factory, and the layout, and his 24 resources, what have you. 25 Q. In situations where salespeople were calling PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052144 Coapucer Aided Transcription by Xscribe 87 1 on new customers, but old plants, that you were able to 2 pick up from, you know, your salesman was able to get in 3 there and sell Pydraul as a replacement hydraulic fluid 4 for something Bade by one of your aoapetitors, if there 5 wasn't a separate systea in place for drawing out Pydraul 4 froa the waste water at the bottoa, would that be a ~7 recommendation that would be Bade for a new account? 8 A. Sure, yeah, but in something to catch the 9 loss or the drippage or the spill or the broken pipeline, 10 trap it and treat it as follows, and as I remember, the 11 brochures had even some sketches in some schemes of work 12 somewhere. 13 0. In any of the brochures or publications 14 Monsanto had prior to '69, demonstrating ways of 15 accomplishing the separation, did Monsanto reference this 16 as a way to alleviate discharge of the material into 17 either a sewer system or the waterways? 18 A. I don't recall the wording. I just don't 19 remember the exact words. I do remember this emphasis on 20 reclamation and the aixture of water and Pydrauls and 21 separating them. 22 Q. It could well be that the separation system 23 that we're talking about for separating Pydraul from waste 24 water was only advanced by Monsanto as a technique for 25 reclamation to save money by the consumer so that fluids ----------------------------------- PERR7 REPORTING SERVICE----------------------------- - WATER PCB-SD0000052145 computer Aiaea Transcription by xscribe 89 1 could be used, rather than to aid in treating of waste 2 water that was going to be discharged either into a 3 system, a sewer system or a waterway? 4 MR. SCHINKi I object. It asks for the S witness to speculate. 6 ~ A. Zt could be as you say. 7 0. (BY MR. CARLSON) Okay. 8 A. At the sane tine, X find that hard to believe 9 that the thought of "Don't expose people" isn't there 10 somewhere, "Don't get it out there where others can be 11 exposed." I'm thinking of the label and the handling 12 section in these brochures we talked about. 13 Q. Well, the label doesn't have anything on it 14 about reclaiming using the kind of system we're talking 15 about? 16 A. Ho. No. 17 Q. I'm talking about particular -- 18 MR. SCHINK: Let him finish his answer. 19 MR. CARLSON* I'm sorry. I thought he did. 20 A. The label refers to waste that human beings 21 can be exposed. 22 Q. (BY MR. CARLSON) All right. 23 A. The idea being that once you get that 24 message, then you control how it's handled in this 25 workplace, how it might get down the sewer, what affect it PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052146 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe JO 1 will have on the sewage plant people, and what night 2 happen later i they dump it in the wrong place and out in /. 3 the local lake. The people night be swimming or fishing. 4 Just don't expose people to this chemical, and that 5 Includes the whole bit from handling, use, disposal. 4 Q. doing back to the original thought, that is, T the brochures which demonstrated ways of reclaiming 8 Pydraul from waste water, that was as a reclamation method 9 to aid the customer in treating his waste water? 10 A. I'd have to reread it. I don't remember the 11 exact words. I do remember the sections on reclamation. 12 I remember schematic sketches of how it might be done. I 13 remember a reference to, "You can reuse this." 14 It seems to me I also remember even a 15 recommendation where you might send it to have it cleaned 16 up a little more to some companies that were in this 17 business, but a specific wording as it relates to, "Don't 18 put it down the sewer," I don't know if that was in that 19 section or some other section. I just don't remember 20 those words. 21 Q. Do you remember when the brochure first came 22 out that we're discussing? 23 A. X think the earliest brochures came out when 24 the product was first introduced in the middle '50s. 25 Q. Do you remember about how many revisions ----------------------------------- PERRY-RE PORTING "SERVICE---------------------------- --- WATER PCB-SD0000052147 ` computer Aided Transcription by XWcrlbe 1 there were of It? 2 A. I'm under the impression about three. 3 Q. Just a few minutes ago in responding to a 4 question you had discussed the label and its advising the 5 customer of what would happen to people, for example, who 6 were exposed to this material when they were fishing or t swimming or that kind of thing. What hazards were there 8 to people that were fishing or swimming that were exposed 9 to this particular product after it had already been 10 disbursed in a lake or a river? 11 A. Well, hopefully, none, but it's again a 12 matter of quantity and periods, prolonged exposures. And 13 i it's just a water solution, as I said earlier, if it's 14 in a part per billion, I would not expect any effect. 15 On the other hand, if it's down in the bottou 16 sediment in high concentrations, and people wade or walk 17 in that too often, and it will vary from the small child 18 to the adult, and even between adults and children, it's 19 possible, for example, to get a reddening of the skin on 20 the feet that were in this muck too long. Exaggerating 21 somewhat, continuing in that, you might start getting some 22 chloracne appearing on your cheek bones because you did 23 this too often every day all summer long, maybe, again to 24 make the point. So, in order to avoid any of that, just 25 don't even get close to exposing people. Just don't PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052148 1 dispose of it improperly 2 Q. If the 10 parts per billion of -- I suppose 3 we ought to talk about which of the Aroclors we want to 4 address. Is the 10 parts per billion any of the PCBs? S A. Any of them. 6 Q. Okay. If that target la being met by a i company discharging waste water into a waterway for over a 8 period of 20 years, is there a potential then for the 9 sediment in the bottom of the receiving stream, receiving 10 lake, receiving pond, whatever it may be, then to reach an 11 unacceptable high level? 12 MR, SCHINK: I object to the form of the 13 question. The 10 part per billion figure that the witness 14 testified, I thought, was with reference to discharges to 15 municipal treatment plants, not discharges to streams. 16 Q. (BY MR. CARLSON) Let's discuss that for a 17 second. Does Monsanto have a different recommendation if 18 there was discharge into holding ponds? 19 MR. SCHINKi I object to the form of that 20 question. I don't think Monsanto had a recommendation. I 21 thought you asked him with reference to an internal goal 22 that Monsanto set for discharges from its plants to sewage 23 treatment plants. 24 Q. (BY MR. CARLSON) You can answer the 25 question. PSRRY REPORTING" SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052149 computer Aiaea Transcription by Xscnoe ST 1 A. He did not have a goal for free discharge 2 into a public waterway. We shared with our customers our 3 goal, telling them that this in turn goes to a treatment 4 plant, and we expect in that treatment plant for some of 5 it to be degraded and the rest to be trapped by the 6 aludge, and the sludge has to be properly disposed of. f9 And we anticipate that the water that Is finally 8 discharged is acceptable, you know, measurable in terms of 9 analytic, current analytical methods. 10 Q. And that was first the goal as of 11 approximately when? 12 A. 1970. 13 Q. Okay. How did you feed that information to 14 your customer? . 15 A. Word of mouth, these presentations I 16 mentioned earlier. In some instances I recall responding 17 to a letter, answering back in that kind of language, 18 Monsanto's goal is 10 parts per billion in their 19 discharge, so on. 20 Q. Into the sewer systems where it was going to 21 the waste water treatment plant? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. Was that ever put on the label of any of your 24 products? 25 A. No. tBkRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052150 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe 9T 1 Q. Has that ever put in the brochure that was 2 nailed generally to the known customers? 3 A. No* 4 Q. Prior to 1970, did Monsanto sake 5 recommendations to its customers with regard to different < handling of waste water that was going to be discharged 7 into a municipal sewer system and waste water which would 8 be discharged into a waterway? 9 A. I'm not aware of a distinction being made. 10 Word of caution was, "Don't mix the two. Don't dump it 11 freely. If it does get mixed, salvage." That was the 12 message prior to '69. 13 Q. Bov was that message conveyed? I mean, was 14 that an important message Monsanto wanted to get to the 15 customer? 16 A. Which message is this? 17 Q. The one you just mentioned to me that if 18 you're going to have a mixing of the water and the PC9s, 19 don't mix, salvage* 20 A. Salvage, yeah. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A, That was a pretty Importantmessage. 23 Q. Okay. Do you know who hadthe responsibility 24 of determining the appropriate labels that would be put on 25 the Pydraul products to convey that message? Perry REPORTING SERVICE " WATER PCB-SD0000052151 tauvl*)(b*Wli WJf AIWUUC ai 1 A. The primary responsibility was the medical 2 department, 3 Q. Mould they, that is, would people in the 4 medical department draft the original label in that 5 regard? 4 A. Tea. Zn the majority of eases, they would '"7 make the original draft# would eoasalt with the marketing 8 people# the research people, the label people. There was 9 a label department# and# of course# the lawyers# get a 10 consensus# but the medical department had the control. 11 They could overrule any other suggestions that they didn't 12 feel were appropriate. 13 Q. Okay. And they would originate the label, 14 the warning aspects of the label? 15 A. In most cases# nine out of 10. Once in a 15 while someone would start something with his 17 understanding# go by the medical department# say# "Here's 18 what I'm thinking. What do you think?" And they would 19 sit down and revise it if appropriate. 20 Q. How about for the Pydraul 312 prior to 21 reformulation? Do you know where that label came from? 22 A. That label was a copy of the PCB wording# and 23 that wording originated in the medical department. 24 Q. Okay. I don't know if it's either fair or 25 possible to approach it this way# but if Monsanto was PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052152 -----K------------------ ----------------- -J ABW4.AWC 1 still manufacturing and selling Pydraul 312 with the 1242 2 Aroclor, do you have some opinion as to what the label 3 language looked like, that is, what language you had on 4 it? 5 A. Teah, I have an opinion. 6 Q. Can you tell me what it would be? ? A. Z would say the label that existed prior to 8 determination la today still appropriate, because if those 9 words of caution are followed, I think it would achieve 10 what you're trying to achieve. Avoid exposing people. 11 Avoid harm to the environment. All of those things are 12 there, and they still are appropriate today. 13 Q. Do you remember how many revisions of the 14 Pydraul 312 label there were from *65, through the 15 termination of the product? 16 A. '65 to '71, I'm aware of only one addition. 17 Q. And when was that? 18 A. This was in 1970. 19 Q. And what was the addition? 20 A. If* had a paragraph referring or 21 re-emphasizing, really, the impact, the possible impact on 22 the environment, and to keep it out of waterways, property 23 handling and disposing. 24 Q. In 1970, were there landfills that existed 25 that would have approval from some governmental agency, -----------------------------------PERRY REPORTING SERVICE---------------------------- ------ WATER PCB-SD0000052153 Computer Aided Transcript ion oy Xscnoe 9T 1 whether it be a local, state or Federal agency, for the 2 receipt of PCB material? 3 A, Yes. 4 Q. First of all,were they sites that were 5 approved Federally in 1970? A. Ho. 1 Q. Sites that were approved locally by states? 8 A. Host of them were locally approved. A few 9 states were approving, but most of them were municipally 10 approved, county or city approved. 11 Q. Over the years have there been sites that 12 were municipally approved that later had to themselves be 13 cleaned up? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Why was that happening? Can you give me a 16 brief background of what occurred and why sites which 17 originally apparently were licensed or were approved to 10 receive PCB materials then later on had to go through 19 another cleanup process? 20 A. Oh, I canonlyattribute that to a changing 21 perception of the potential hasards of PCBs with time. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. Back before '70, itwas innocuous, perceived 24 to be innocuous, and free dumping was permitted. As the 25 public became more aware of PCB's and the regulatory PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052154 1 agencies began asking questions and scrutinizing, the 2 permitting procedure changed, and some of the landfills 3 that at one time would permit PCBs would no longer do so 4 Q. And if they were weren't, they would have to 5 be cleaned up in some instances? 6 A* In some instances, yes* 7 Q. Do you have any understanding as to whether 8 or not the originators of the PCBs, that is, the company 9 that used the PCBs, in this case a manufacturing 10 operation, would still be responsible for the cleanup? 11 A. I'm aware of at least one case, yes, sir. 12 Q. If a company -- strike that. Is it possible 13 for a company to have believed it was disposing of PCBs in 14 an appropriate manner by having them taken to a licensed 15 landfill and then subsequently being found financially 16 responsible for the then removal of the PCBs from that 17 landfill? 18 A. You say is it possible? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A* Theanswer Is yes. 21 Q. Are you personally familiar with the 22 landfills that were accepting PCBs in Wisconsin in 1970? 23 A. WO. 24 Q. Are youaware of landfills in Wisconsin that 25 received PCB material prior to 1970, which have ---------------------------------- PERRY REPORTING SERVICE------------------------------ --- WATER PCB-SD0000052155 Compoter XTded Transcription oy xscrxoe - 1T5T 1 subsequently been ordered to be cleaned up? 2 A. I'm not aware of any. 3 Q. You're not aware that it didn't happen# 4 either? You just don't have any knowledge? 5 A, That is correct. 6 Q. Okay. As has Monsanto had to pay for cleanup EU. costs for any landfills that it used prior to 1970# for 8 disposal of PCBs? 9 A. Mould you help me with the word# your 10 understanding of the word "cleanup". 11 Q. Where the material# that is# the actual soil 12 had to be removed and taken somewhere else. 13 A, NO. 14 Q. When is the first time you recall there being 15 a maximum amount of PCB'e that could be present in 16 hydraulic flood and die cast machines? 17 MR. SCHINKt Are you talking about when there 18 was a regulation? 19 MR. CARLSONi Yes. 20 A. I first became aware of this about 1980# *81. 21 Q. (BY MR. CARLSON) Do you recall what the 22 standard was at that time? 23 A. If I have ay dates correct# I believe# as 24 best I remember# it was 50 parts per million. 25 Q. Do you know whether or not Monsanto PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052156 computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe 100 1 provided -- that was set by the BPA? 2 A. Tee. 3 Q. Did Monsanto provide any information to EPA 4 vhich EPA, to your knowledge, relied upon In part in 5 coming to that standard? 6 A. A Monsanto representative participated in ff those discussions. I cannot personally say that I an 8 aware exactly what he proposed, but Z do know he acted. 9 MR. SCHINK: His question is what EPA relied 10 on. 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. (BY KR. CARLSON) Did Monsanto produce any 13 such information for EPA to review and take into account? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Who was the person for Monsanto that had that 16 responsibility of providing information to EPA? 17 A. Dr. Craddock,C-r-a-d-d-o-c-k. 18 Q. What was his position at that time? 19 MR. SCHINKt He's already been deposed by you 20 in this proceeding. 21 Q. (BT MR. CARLSON) What was his position at 22 that time? 23 A. I believe he was product director, safety and 24 environment, some such title. That's not exactly it, 25 but -- FERRY"REPORTING'SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052157 -- Computer Aiaed Transcription oy aacnoe 101 1 0. Did you participate in the decision for Or. 2 Craddock to be the person to have contact with EPA? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Have the standards for allowable PCBs and 5 hydraulic fluid in die cast machines changed since 1980? 4 A. Z don't know. Q. Do you know what the standard is today? 8 A. No# Z don't. 9 o. Okay. Did Monsanto ever recommend to 10 customers that die cast machines which had Pydraul 312 in 11 it at one time be cleaned in an attempt to limit the 12 amount of PCBs present? 13 A. I would only be speculating. I don't know. 14 Q. The hydraulic fluid which followed the 15 Pydraul 312 would have been the terphenyl? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Has that a hydraulic fluid which could be 18 added to the Pydraul 312 which had the 1242 Aroclor? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. At that time did Monsanto make any 21 recommendation that the 1242 Aroclor be drained from the 22 machine and then the 312 -- was it 312-A? 23 A. MO. 24 Q. Which one was it? Oh, okay. The answer was 25 no, you didn't have to drain it? PERRY REPORTING 8ERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052158 Computer Aided Transcription by Ascribe IB? 1 A, That'8 correct, 2 Q. The next Pydraul 312 that came waswhich? 3 A. 312-A, I believe was the designation, which 4 was the terphenyl. Is that what you mean? 5 Q. Okay. And which followed the terphenyl? 6 A* One of them followed, bat Z don't remember 7 the designation. 8 Q. Do you remember, was that a phosphate ester? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Could that be used with the Pydraul 312 or 11 312-A? 12 A. I understood it can, ye3. 13 Q. If a die cast company were to clean a die 14 cast machine and get the PC3 concentration and the 15 hydraulic fluid down below the 50 parts per million, will 16 it stay at that level, or will it be at less, or can it 17 get more without the introduction of new PCBs? 18 A. This depends really on the procedure used to 19 clean up the system before the next, the new fill. Zf 20 there are pockets where liquid can collect that aren't 21 drained properly, if there are gaskets that soak up, if 22 there are old porous metal surfaces that a*5t like sponges 23 where the PCBs can be trapped, all of these can be sources 24 of PCBs. The PCBs from these sources would be extracted 25 into the new oil and eventually, if analyzed, it could -----------------------------------PERRY REPORTING SERVICE----------------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000052159 computer Aided Transcription by xsenne T07 1 exceed the 50 part per Billion, So, it all depends on hov 2 thorough the cleanup job was done and the condition of 3 that piece of equipment at the time the cleanup was done. 4 MR, 8CHINK* I think hie question was if all 5 that's done, if all the PCBs were removed and you put in 6 the new fluid, aould you have more than 30 parts per y million of PCB? 8 A, Where would it come from? Zf it's all 9 removed, there is nowhere it would come from. Therefore, 10 you shouldn't see it. 11 MR. CARLSON: Why don't you go back and read 12 my original question for me. 13 (Reporter read from record as directed.) 14 MR. CARLSON: Move to strike counsel's 15 comment, the witness' further voluntary discussion and 16 response to counsel's comment. If he moves it stands, 17 then that's fine. 18 In your opinion, is it possible to clean a die cast 19 machine that's over 10 years old of all PCBs if the die 20 cast machine was using Pydraul 312 for five years? 21 MR. SCHINKi Whan? 22 A. I'll qualify ay response by reminding you I 23 don't know an awful lot about die cast machines. I do 24 know about Monsanto's system that made the Pydrauls. It 25 includes pipelines, steel tanks, reservoirs, pumps, hoses, PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052160 Computer Aided Transcription oy xscribe TOT 1 and the like. Our experience has shown when we cleaned 2 out that unit, our first attempt was not successful until 3 we went back and did an extremely thorough job, virtually 4 dismantling the whole system and rebuilding it. Then we 5 succeeded. If the similarities are there, I personally 6 believe a machine can be cleaned up properly, 7 Q. (by MB, CARLSON) Do you think it could be 8 economically cleaned up towards the value of the machine? 9 A. That I don't know, because I don't know the 10 value of the used machinery. 11 Q. Do you have opinions on exactly what a die 12 cast company should do to properly clean the machine? 13 A. I have some opinions, yes. 14 Q. Okay. Can you tell me what those are? 15 A. Well, such things as -- 16 Q. When I say "properly," can we limit that to 17 being realistically proper? 18 A. That's correct. Yes. 19 MR, SCHINKt This is not with reference to 20 the 50 part per million standard? 21 HR. CARLSON! That's right. That's right. 22 A die cast company wants to clean up a machine to 23 the best that it's possible, that's realistic. How should 24 that be done? 25 A. I would look for the obvious traps in the* *ERRV REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052161 *w w ,, a -w ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ a* *rj' v 4 ^ 1 system where liquid can accumulate and resist drainage. I 2 would look for ways to get to that point in the system. I 3 would look at the piping system to see if there's material 4 in there that acts as a sponge, if you will, of the 5 liquid, such as gaskets, rubber hoses and the like. I would use a solvent of the petroleum mature, and needless P to say, it should be a safe solvent that wouldn't explode a or catch fire. And I would circulate it through that 9 system and, if necessary, drain it and do it several 10 times, and before each drainage, I would take a sample and 11 analyze it for the presence of PCBs to the point where 12 it's non-detectable. 13 If time permitted, I would allow that solvent to 14 stay in the system as long as I can, over a weekend or 15 something, if possible, circulate it. And, of course, I 16 would drain it entirely, put in new gaskets, new hoses, 17 and then put in my new fluid. I would then set up a 18 program for taking samples of this new fluid on some basis 19 periodically, and have it analysed to see if PCBs are 20 8till at work showing up again. How, the number of 21 flushes, rinses and refills of the solvent and the number 22 of samples will vary from system to system, but Z think 23 that procedure will eventually lead to a clean system. 24 Q. The reason for setting up the program for 25 samples after the first or second or third time, though, PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052162 computer A^uea Transcription oy Xscribe TO6 1 is to ensure yourself that indeed you have gotten all the 2 PCBs? 3 A* That is correct, yes. 4 Q. Because even if you go through the procedure 5 as you outlined carefully a couple of tines, you do not 6 necessarily have all the PCBs out, do you? I* A. That's very possible. Z'a talking about the 8 machine. Let's not forget the reservoir fluid, the whole 9 system -- 10 Q. Right. 11 A. -- from beginning to an end. 12 Q. Has the company ever outlinedfor customers 13 the appropriate cleaning procedures that you outlined? 14 A. I do not know. . 15 0. In your opinion, is the cleaning procedure 16 that you have outlined necessary for machines that have in 17 the past used the Pydraul 312 with the Aroclor 1248 as the 18 hydraulic fluid? 19 NR. SCHINKt I object to the fora of the 20 question. By "necessary," do you mean necessary to comply 21 with the applicable regulation or necessary for some other 22 reason. 23 NR. CARLSONt Necessary for any reason. 24 HR. SCHINKt Object to the form of the 25 question. It's purposely vague, misleading. ----------------------------------- PETfKY "REPORTING SERVICE-------------------------------- - WATER PCB-SD0000052163 Computer ATde~<r~Transcriptlon by Ascribe IWT 1 A. Well, if there's a regulation, naturally it's 2 necessary to comply with that regulation. My personal 3 opinion regarding the -- other than the need to conply 4 with statutes and regulations, this depends guite a bit on 5 how carefully the systea is aaintained. What happens when < it starts to leak? Where does that material end up, and P Is it carefully managed? If so, than Z see no problems 8 personally. Zf it's aisaanaged and could lead to other 9 problens, certainly we ought to do a better job in 10 cleanup. 11 Q. Even if it's managed properly, though, you 12 still have a risk of something occurring which will allow 13 the PCBs to escape, wouldn't you? 14 A. Well, it could escape, but how would it 15 escape? It might escape through a pump plan. It might 16 escape through a ruptured hose, but I'd like to think that 17 by now we have been sensitized enough to PCBs that we've 18 got a curb and a concrete floor and a curb basin 19 somewhere. It's just not going to flow across the floor 20 into a sewer or out in the backyard somewhere. 21 Q. By now based on the literature that's come up 22 between 1969 and today? 23 A. That's right, yes. Our perception today is 24 such that the chance of it getting away from us is quite 25 remote. PERRT REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052164 Computer Aided Transcription by XscriDe ~ 3T08T 1 Q. But if a coapany were to spend -- forget the 2 EPA exists. Okay. We're just looking at handling 3 aachines that previously had the Pydraul 312. Even# you 4 know, with a good curbing and dike aystea and management # 5 the owner of the equlpaent could be better served by 6 cleaning the equipment than aiaply building a wall around it, wouldn't it? 8 A. Is it one or the other? 9 Q. If you had to make that choice. 10 A. That choice? Yes# I would concentrate on 11 cleanup first# but at the same tine I can't forget that 12 the new fluid is an industrial chemical. It shouldn't be 13 sloshed around into the environment# either. 14 0. Okay. 15 A. So that curbing would help me in any event. 16 Q. And the curbing is going to help because 17 whatever fluid is in there now# even if it doesn't have 18 any PCBs# it shouldn't go out the door? 19 A. That's right. Mineral oil# you can't just 20 dump your motor oil out of your car anywhere. You 21 shouldn't. 22 Q. But because of the nature of the PCBs# you 23 would still recommend cleaning up the machine? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Has Monsanto at any time made a program --------------------------------- PERRY REPORTING SERVICE ~ WATER PCB-SD0000052165 ***40W* A W44 ewjf AAW4 4U0 1 available to customers to aid In the cleaning up of die 2 cast machines of PCBs? 3 A. I don't know that I recall a program so much, 4 but it's the continuing assistance from the sales 5 representative in matters relating to the proper handling ( of these fluids* * 0. Z guess what I'm looking for is have you had 8 any customers that you have paid for the cost of the 9 cleanup in return -- for example, we had the Incineration 10 program where if they burned, I mean, you would burn for 11 them if they bought from you? 12 MR. SCHINK: I think he testified they made 13 package deals with some customers that included that, yes. 14 Q. (BY MR. CARLSON) All right. And what I'm 15 looking for is did you have any package deals where you 16 cleaned or paid for the cost of cleanup of the machines if 17 they continued to buy? 18 A. I'm not aware of any. 19 Q. Was there any other component of Pydraul 312 20 besides the Aroolor 1248 which had a potential for causing 21 some adverse human health reaction, regardless of how 22 slight? 23 A. Well, I'm a proponent that all chemicals 24 eventually at some dose can cause some effect. 25 Q. Sure. Was there anything in Pydraul that was PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052166 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe T1T5------- 1 of particular significance? 2 A. Mot that I'm aware of. 3 Q. Do you know particularly what input the 4 labeling department had on the language that was on the 5 Pydraul 312 label? 4 A. Ohf their input was primarily one of f appearance, graphics and printing case and legibility and 8 layout, not the words. 9 Q. I might have asked you, and you might have 10 said you don't remember. I don't recall anymore, but who 11 was in charge of the labeling department at any time that 12 the Pydraul label was being reviewed? 13 A. Oh, that was Robert Sido, S-i-d-o. 14 Q. Anybody else you recall in that capacity? 15 A. Mr. Sido had some assistance, but he's the 16 principal person. I don't recall his assistance. 17 Q. Do you know what filing system, if any, the 18 labeling department had for the different products? 19 A. Mo. It was a numbering system cataloging, 20 very much like a library, but I never became familiar with 21 it. 22 Q. Where was the labeling department located? 23 A. Zn St. Louis at the headquarters, Monsanto 24 headquarters. 25 0. The script that you had for one of the ----------------------------------- FIRRY "IEPORT IMG SERVICE------------------------------- -- WATER PCB-SD0000052167 J A W W* * 1 presentations, and I think it was one of the industry 2 groups, do you have a copy of that yourself? 3 A. I don't have a copy, no. 4 Q. When was the last tine -- strike that. Do 5 you know where any copies are? A. Mo, X don't. Q. When is the last tine you did know where a 8 copy was? 9 A. When I turned over ay assignaent to my 10 successor back in '76| it was in ay file cabinet. 11 Q. Was it in a folder that had a title to it? 12 A. Yes, it was in a folder. The title would be 13 under ANSI," A-N-S-I, on the tab of the folder. 14 Q. When you made your other presentations, did 15 you do those from prepared notes? 16 A. Well, as I indicated, some were prepared, and 17 some were from handwritten notes, key words that I would 18 look at and then talk extemporaneously. 19 Q. Did you keep any of your handwritten notes? 20 A. So. 21 Q. Do you know if any of your presentations were 22 tape recorded or taken down by a stenographer? 23 A. They were not. 24 Q. What was the reason labels weresubmitted to 25 the legal department for review? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE " WATER PCB-SD0000052168 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe XT? 1 A. It's Monsanto practice for all labels. I 2 don't know the reason. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. They are part of the reviewing team is all I 5 know. 4 Q. With regard to any of the labels on 312 that P were used for 312, do you know what input, if any, the 8 legal department had? 9 A. I don't recall any input other than their 10 approval. They didn't change anything. 11 Q. Did you correspond with people at EPA 12 regarding PCBs? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Do you remember the names ofthe people at 15 EPA that you corresponded with? 16 A. Oh, there was Dr. John Buckley, Kenneth M. 17 Kenthum, K-e-n-t-h-u-m. I've forgotten most of them. 18 Thomas Kopp, K-o-p-p. There were so many, I've forgotten 19 them all. There must be a docen more. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. Those are the key people, though, program 22 managers and so on. 23 Q. Did you have more than one file set up for 24 your correspondence with EPA, both to and from? 25 A. No. As I recall, I just had one tag, "EPA," ----------------------------------- PBRRY REPORTING SERVICE----------------------------- -- WATER PCB-SD0000052169 ~UOBputer Arced Transcription By Xscribe ITT 1 but it became several sections because it got too thick. 2 Q. About how thick was it at the tine you left? 3 A. Oh, gosh. I would suggest that it was about 4 three folders, each about, oh, roughly two inches deep. 5 0* Were they in the file drawer when you last 6 left the eonpany? '1? A. Tea. 8 MR. SCHXNKt Did you say when he left the 9 company or when he left his position in '76? 10 Q. (BY MR. CARLSON) When you left your position 11 in *76, is what I meant to say. 12 A. Yes. That*e right. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. Did you make any presentations to any 14 Congressional committees? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. How many? 17 A. One. 18 0. And when was that? 19 A. *74 or *75. 20 Q. Mas your presentation froa a prepared script? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And do you currently have a copy of that? 23 A. I don't. 24 Q. Where was it the last tiae you saw it? 25 A. In my files that I turned over. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052170 44aiaW4 WA VM **i A4W44WC 1 Q. Okay. What was that file antitied, oc vhat 2 was the file entitled that had that script in it? 3 A. As best I recall, just plain "Congress." 4 Q. Did Monsanto have a manufacturing plant in 5 Pensacola for producing? 6 A. Tea. t Q. Wore PCBs used in that plant? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Did you ever visit the plant? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you ever visit the plant prior to a 12 discharge of PCBs fron the plant? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did you have an opinion prior to the 15 discharge as to whether or not the plant was well run with 16 regard to maintenance and attempts to contain fluids? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did you think it was a well run plant? 19 A. Yes. ' 20 Q. Bov did the fluids get out? 21 A. There was an accidental leak out of a 22 compressor. 23 Q. But where was -- 24 A. Pipeline. 25 Q. Pipeline failure? -----------------------------------PERRY REPORTING SEHVTCT5 WATER PCB-SD0000052171 Computer 'AideS Transfeription by xscrlbe ITT 1 A. Pipeline break/ yes. 2 Q. And what was It discharged into? 3 A. It eventually ended up through a dry creek 4 bed, sort of drainage ditch/ into the estuary there/ the S channel/ the Scaabla Bay. c 0. Did Monsanto have to oloanup that area? 7 A. Tes. They didn't have to. Theydid it. 8 Q. They did it? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Okay. And when was that? 11 A. '69 or *70. 12 Q. Have you been at some die cast companies 13 ' where Pydraul was being used? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Have there been changes in proper disposal 16 methods by die cast companies of residual fluids 17 containing PCBs over the years? I guess that's 18 self-evident. There have been changes over the years in 19 how you are legitiaately or reasonably to dispose of PCBs, 20 haven't there? 21 HR. 8CHINKi Well/ he hasn't been in a plant. 22 I don't see how he has a foundation. 23 A. Z have no basis for evaluating personally the 24 changes that have taken place/ but there have been 25 regulations and all/ so there nust be attempts in PERRY REPORTING 8ERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052172 Aiuu 14 UJf AbCl X *2 iiO 1 complying. 2 Q. (BY NR. CARLSON) Do you have a working 3 knowledge of currant regulations regarding disposal of 4 PCB'e? 5 A. Ho. 6 Q. Have you at some time in the past had that 7 knowledge that vas then current? 8 A. Tea. Op to 1976, I was up to date. Since 9 then I don't believe I'm up to date. 10 Q. Okay. As of '76, or in 1976, what were 11 permissible ways of disposing of PCBs? 12 A. In early '76, February, '76? 13 Q. Right. 14 A. All right. At that time liquids could be 15 incinerated in approved units, incinerating units. Solid 16 materials such as rags, sawdust, contaminated clay, 17 equipment that was used with PCBs, could be deposited in 18 approved landfills. I think that takes care of both the 19 olids and the liquids. 20 Q. Okay. Do you remember or do you have some 21 recollection of how many incinerators there were that were 22 permitted to incinerate PCBs in February of '76? 23 A. '76, Rollins Company had three units. There 24 was one located in Arkansas, Eldorado, Arkansas, and there 25 was one located in Illinois. I believe it was Sheffield, ------- :------------------------- PERRY REPORTING SERVICE-------------------------- - WATER PCB-SD0000052173 Computer Aided Transcription by xscrine XT7 1 Illinois. And for a while there was a unit up in New 2 York, Blasdell, B-l-a-s-d-e-1-1, New York, near Niagara. 3 MR. SCHINKt This is in addition to the 4 Monsanto unit, X asauae? 5 MR. CARLSONt Right. Monsanto had it until *77? - 9 A. Yea. 8 0. When we're talking about -- whenyou're 9 talking about approved landfills, the landfills would be 10 approved by who for receipt of PCB's? 11 A. In 1976, the states certainly, and I believe 12 EPA became active at that time. 13 Q. When were the rules with regard to disposal 14 of PCB'8 and landfills -- strike that. Do you know if 15 Monsanto had looked at alternatives for Pydraul with the 16 1242 Aroclor prior to 1969? 17 A. Not to my knowledge. 18 Q. Were there other companiesselling products 19 that would have the same function as the Pydraul 312 prior 20 to 1969? 21 MR. fCHINKt What do you mean by "the same 22 function"? 23 Q. (BY MR. CARLSON) The hydraulic fluid in die 24 cast machines in this instance. 25 A. There were competitive hydraulic fluids, yes. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052174 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscrlbe ni 1 other companies manufacturing these other products. 2 0* Do you know what the principal components of 3 those were? 4 A. I1a aware of two coaponents. Actually, it's 5 three, A mixture of water and ethylene glycol was quite 6 popular, and then there were some phosphate eaters used. w That*s the extent of ay knowledge pf the competitive 8 fluids. 9 Q. Did Monsanto make a hydraulic fluid utilizing 10 a phosphate ester prior to 1969? 11 A. Some of the Pydrauls in addition to PCBs had 12 phosphate esters in them. 13 Q. I'm going to switch subjects entirely just 14 for a second. Why didn't any other company in the United 15 States ever make PCBs, or did they? 16 A. Well, there's rumors that some tried it. 17 I've been asked that question. Are we on the record? 18 Q. Teah, we're on the record, but I can tell you 19 that I haven't read it from any transcript. Z was 20 curious. 21 A. The PCB business was driven prlnarily by the 22 dielectric applications. The big ones, General Electric 23 and Westinghouse, had put so much in the way of resources 24 in making sure this dielectric fluid was just right for 25 their uses. They had worked with Monsanto and its ----------------------------------- PERRY REPORTING SERVICE---------------------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000052175 JL. A J 1 predecessor, Svan Chemical, for so many years, and they 2 had gotten the relationship such that they were getting 3 what they wanted at a price that they felt was reasonable. 4 They were not willing to start a competitor down that same 5 road of experience producing the right quality consistently, and they were satisfied that Monsanto, starting in the '40s, had two plants. So if one exploded 8 or had a fire, there would still be a continued source. 9 So, they were quite satisfied, and they were not willing 10 to give business to anyone else. Anyone else getting into 11 that business could not make a profitable product line 12 without the dielectric business, so they were discouraged 13 from even trying it. That's my understanding. 14 Q. How about importing of some of the PC3s for 15 hydraulic fluid? Apparently they were being made in 16 Europe. 17 A. Yes, they were. I was never able to 18 establish from the records kept by the tariff people 19 whether any liquids came in for that purpose, because they 20 were not identified as such. They would always be marked 21 what*8 known as HOI chemicals, not otherwise identified. 22 There's some Indication, in my opinion kind of strong, 23 some of the hydraulic fluids were brought in for use in 24 mining equipment because of the tie-in with the machinery 25 and the source of supply. That's all I know. I've never PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052176 computer Aiaed Transcription oy xscnne 120 1 been able to substantiate that. 2 Q. Have there been studies addressing themselves 3 to PCBs becoming airborne and moving about in the world's 4 atmosphere and being deposited in different locations? 5 A. Not to ay knowledge. 6 Q. Earlier this aorning ve talked a little bit 7 about aonitorlng of effluent froa Anniston and Krummrich 8 for the presence of PCB's. What kind of analytical 9 equipment was being used for analysis of the PCBs at 10 Anniston starting as far back as you can recall? 11 A. By today's standards they are very crude. It 12 was based on, first of all, a big, bold assumption that 13 the material you're looking at i3 PCBs. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. Then you analyzed for the chlorine that's in 16 that material, and by my arithmetic, you calculate back 17 how much PCBs would create that much chlorine. This is 18 why the detection level was high or in the thousands of 19 parts per million or tenths and hundredths of a percent. 20 It'8 a very crude method, but that was the method used up 21 until the 8wediah work came along. 22 Q. What development was used prior to the 23 Swedish protocol being published? 24 A. Oh, there was no single piece of equipment. 25 It was a matter of taking the unknown material ~ ----------------------------------- FERITY REPORTING SKKVTCK------------------------------ --- WATER PCB-SD0000052177 4<<l 1 Q. All right. 2 A. -- and in essence burning it in a crucible, a 3 platinum crucible, converting the organic chloride to a 4 sodium chloride or calcium chloride, and then they would 5 analyse for the chlorine with water chemistry. 6 Q. When did Anniston get more sophisticated 7 equipment then? 8 A. Anniston never did get the latest. They took 9 a step in the right direction in about early 1970, but the 10 unit was shut down in *71. So, no further refinements 11 were made. So at best they got what you may have heard of 12 as a GLC unit, gas liquid chromatogram. 13 Q. How about Krummrich? Prior to 1970, were 14 they using the sane technique as Anniston? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. And what additional equipment did they get 17 there? 18 A. They got -- starting in about 1970, they got 19 a GLC unit. In about 1974, they added to that a mass 20 spectrophotometer. 21 Q. Did people from Monsanto talk to those ~ 22 talk to Jensen and others that worked with them in the 23 Swedish study? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. When did that occur, or if it was more than PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052178 1 one time 2 A. There was a discussion held, as best I 3 recall, in about 1968, and then ~ 4 Q. Who was Involved with your company? 5 A. At that time it was Mr* Elmer Wheeler, 6 medical department, and Robert Keller, Monsanto's 7 analytical services center. And Z joined those two 8 individuals for another visit in 1970, and we talked to 9 Mr. Widmark or Dr. Widraark, Dr. Jensen's supervisor. 10 Q. The visit in 1968, was that with Jensen? 11 A. I understand Jensen was in the audience, yes. 12 Q. Okay. Did Elmer Wheeler and Robert Keller go 13 over to Sweden to meet with Dr. Jensen in 1968? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. Okay. And were there others in attendance at 16 that meeting other than the people from your company and 17 Dr. Jensen? 18 A. I'm not aware of any others, just the 19 university people, Widmark and Jensen and the Monsanto 20 people; and then Mr. Wheeler and Dr. Keller were 21 accompanied by a Monsanto from Europe, representative from 22 Europe, but I don't know who that individual was. 23 Q. Did that meeting generate any reports? 24 A. Not to my knowledge, no. 25 Q. Did you discuss with Elmer Wheeler and/or Bob --------------------------------- PffRRY 'REPORTING SERVICE-------------------------- ------- WATER PCB-SD0000052179 Computer Sided Transcription Dy Ascnoe T2T 1 Keller the results o the 1968 meeting? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And when you went over in 1970# was there any A new information given to you by Dr. Widmark which you did 5 not receive or your company did not receive# to your 6 knowledge# at the 1968 meeting? ? A. HO. 8 Q. Did Monsanto ever fund any additional studies 9 to be performed by Dr. Widmark# Dr. Jensen# or others who 10 participated in that study -- 11 A. No. 12 Q. ~ as it followed? Did Monsanto try to 13 reproduce that study? 14 A. Yes. . 15 Q. In Sweden? 15 A. No. I misled you there. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. We tried to reproduce their protocol# their 19 methodology. That was the intent of the first visit# was# 20 Let's get a copy of their method# go back to St. Louis# 21 and try it.* 22 Q. What were they using ftr their analytical 23 equipment in looking for PCBs in 1966# when Jensen was 24 doing his work, or prior to? 25 A. Who was# Dr. Jensen? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052180 \.WW^Ub61 IUU4U lidaiiCt Xp tXUH iSjf AtUXO< 124 1 Q. Yes. 2 A. Re was using a GLC with mass spec 3 confirmation. 4 Q. Okay. In 1966# did Monsanto own a GLC? 5 A. We had a GLC# but not in mass spec. 6 Q. Did Monsanto have a tasting laboratory that - 7 it would refer aaterlal to if mass spec analysis was 8 necessary? 9 A. That I don't know. I do know that they 10 purchased a mass spec. 11 Q. Do you know when they bought it, the first 12 one? 13 A. The first one arrived in about, as best I 14 remember, in '67, sometime in '67, and it was replaced 15 with a more sophisticated unit in about 1974. 1C Q. Without my dragging out the letters, do you 17 have a working knowledge of the series of letters that 18 were sent in 1970, 1971, to Monsanto customers who used 19 the Pydraul 312? 20 A. I believe I do, yes. 21 Q. Okay. Did the author of those letters 22 actually draft them, or at least the person who signed the 23 letters actually draft them? I guess the author always 24 drafts them, but did the person who signed the letters 25 actually draft them? --------------------------------- PERRY REP0RTING"3ERVI'CE----------------------------- --- WATER PCB-SD0000052181 1 A As best I recall in these letters, he 2 prepared the initial draft, had it reviewed starting in 3 1970. I was one of the reviewers and would make my 4 comments. He had had it reviewed by the key functions 5 associated with PCBs, the research representative, the 6 medical representative, the public relations guy, and the 1 legal people, and the business people. Anyone who had an 8 interest in the product was involved. In most cases they 9 couldn't contribute much, but at least they were informed 10 of what was being proposed. Occasionally there would be a 11 suggested paragraph added or a word change here and there. 12 Q. Did Monsanto ever go out into the field and 13 seek to have the Pydraul 312 with the 1242 Aroclor 14 returned to the company, that is, the material that was 15 unused? 16 A. NO. 17 Q. Why not? 18 A. Keep in mind in 1970, our state of knowledge 19 then. The PCBs that seemed to be on the environment were 20 the 1254, 1260, not the 1242. This was 1970, when we 21 first informed our customers that, "There's a presence out 22 there. You ought to be aware of it. Your product 23 contains PCBs." 24 Shortly after that vent out, we embarked, Monsanto 25 embarked on a program of finding a replacement, and it PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052182 wvnputti aiqou xcniiccipcxofl oy Ascaoa 1<26 1 looked promising. So ve had a target then of phasing out 2 of that application by the end of *70. Nov, ve missed 3 that, as I remember, by a couple, three months. But 4 anyway, by early *71, we had no longer any hydraulic fluid 5 with PCBs in them that we were marketing or selling. Still through '71 and all, there was no evidence, if no information that says 1242 is a problem to anybody. 8 So, there was no perceived need to do anything unusual and 9 upset the whole industry, have to drain machines, ship 10 material on the highways back to Monsanto. It looked 11 irrational. That's really the principal reason. 12 Q. Okay. When the replacement fluid was being 13 developed, were there studies done on the potential 14 environmental effects of the product? 15 A. Yes. If you include animal testing as part 16 of that knowledge with potential impact to the 17 environment, yes. The replacement esters were tested. 10 0. Okay. What test protocol did the replacement 19 esters go through? 20 A. It was the lifetime rat feeding study was the 21 best test available. 22 Q. We're looking at this in1970? 23 A. In '70, yes. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A. And then some biodegradation studies to ----------------------------------- PERRY REPORTING SERVICE-------------------------- -- WATER PCB-SD0000052183 --'ar - - ^ m A4 V44 ^2 AAW4 AWC i 1 confirm that these phosphate esters would degrade. 2 Q. Why was that important? 3 A. We didn't want to have any experience -- 4 having experienced the PCB issuer we didn't want to 5 introduce another chemical that was fairly stable and 6 would again be an environmental contaminant. We wanted to 7 avoid that. 8 Q. Did Monsanto make DDT? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Okay. Who did the biodegradation studies on 11 the phosphate ester hydraulic fluid? 12 A. It was the same laboratory in Monsanto that 13 did the PCB biodegradation studies. 14 Q. Okay. Were lifetime rat feeding studies done 15 when the terphenyl was apparently marketed for a short 16 period of time? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Were biodegradation studies done? 19 A. Some, yes. 20 Q. Why were the terphenyls discontinued? 21 A. The biodegradation studies showed that they 22 were kind of persistent. They didn't degrade too readily, 23 and since the phosphate esters looked promising, at least 24 suitable, Monsanto decided that it preferred going to the 25 more degradable material. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052184 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe r2R 1 Q. Here the terphenyls marketed for that short 2 period of time while the company was still looking at the 3 phosphate ester hydraulic fluid? Has it kind of a stop 4 gap measure? 5 A. Tee* 4 Q. Here there any products that you're aware of 7 that were aanufsetured by Monsanto prior to 1969, which 8 had been looked at for the ability of the product to 9 biodegrade? 10 MR. SCBINK: You're talking now any product? 11 HR. CARLSON: Any product. 12 MR. SCHINR: Not just hydraulic fluids? 13 MR. CARLSON: That's right. 14 A. The only one I'm aware of is the detergents 15 that I mentioned earlier today. 16 Q. (BY MR. CARLSON) Okay. Why was 17 biodegradation looked at with regard to the detergents? 18 A. There was a period of time when synthetic 19 detergents ware manufactured that didn't degrade in the 20 environment, and the consumption increased to the point 21 where there were many small rivers and streams that 22 started to foam because the detergent was still active, 23 would not degrade. This became quite a problem, and the 24 industry then had to go back to the research bench and 25 find a detergent that would degrade, leading to today's -------------------------------------PERRY TIE PORTING HKKV1CE----------------------------- -- WATER PCB-SD0000052185 Lei axUbu wj( Aottiuo 4,^,9 1 so-called soft detergents. 2 Q. When did the biodegradation studies occur in 3 the detergents? 4 A. I'm going to say 1960's, early '60s. 5 Q. Technically, could biodegradation studies of 6 PCB's have been done in the early '60s if Monsanto had ' 7 chosen to do so? 8 A. I would suggest that if once the detergent 9 degradation protocol was in place and demonstrated to be 10 reliable, if there had been an indication that PCBs or any 11 chemical other than detergents should be tested, yes, that 12 protocol could have been applied. 13 Q. Okay. It's not terribly relevant, but do you 14 remember when the DDT issue came about? 15 A. I'm trying to remember when "Silent Spring* 16 was published. 17 Q. I remember spraying it with my little pump 18 gun, but - 19 A. *54 comes to mind. 20 Q. Okay. 21 MR. SCHIHKt I think the book was published 22 in 1962, Rachel Carson's book, but in any event -- 23 A. Somewhere I've got 1954 in mindhere. 24 Q. (BY MR. CARLSON) Okay.Sometime in the 25 early '60s, or sometime in the mid-'50s to early '60s? PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052186 AWW 1 A. That*8 my understanding, yes. 2 NR. CARLSONt Let's nark these. Off the 3 record. 4 (A brief recess was taken.) 5 (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Papageorge 6 Nos. 1 through 18 narked for identification.) i Q. (BY NR. CARLSON) Why don't you, if you 8 would, start with Papageorge Deposition Exhibit No. 1, and 9 the first page of that is, if you could describe for for 10 me generally, what, sir? 11 A. The first page is a Monsanto memorandum 12 addressed to six individuals, dated April 7, 1970, and 13 signed by me. 14 0. And attached to that memo is there a 15 "Management Plan, Polychlorinated Biphenyl Environmental 16 Problem"? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did you draft thatdocument? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. The problem is stated in the first section of 21 the paper? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And in the second section of the paper 24 entitled "Basic Strategy," the second full paragraph, the 25 last sentence reads, "We are deliberately assuming an ---------------------------------- PERRY REPORTING 'SERVICE-------------------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000052187 computer axou icanscripcion oy xscrioe 131 1 aggressive posture and working closely with customers, 2 co-producers, and regulatory agencies to prevent 3 precipitous action." Pirst of all, did I correctly read 4 that sentence? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Can you tell me, first of all, what 7 precipitous action was it that you were attempting to 8 prevent? 9 A. Primarily the total ban of the use of PCSs in 10 those applications for which there were no acceptable 11 fire-resistant substitutes. 12 Q. And can you tell me specifically which 13 applications those would be at that time? 14 A. At that time, the hydraulic fluids and the 15 dielectric application. 16 Q. With regard to the hydraulic fluids, how did 17 your competitors' phosphate ester-based fluids compare 18 with your PCB-based fluids in performance? 19 A. They were not quite as good as the PCB types. 20 PCB types were considered the premium product and the 21 preferred product in terms of fire retardants and all the 22 other properties, corrosion resistance to the parts of the 23 machinery, the lubricating, the lubricity characteristics, 24 stability under all kinds of conditions. 25 Q. How did your company's phosphate ester PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052188 W ** * --V. *4 M44rf V* Af V* V<4 *+^ ^%WW4^<WW ^1^4* 1 hydraulic fluid compare to your competitors when you put 2 It on the market? 3 A. The final? 4 Q. Tea. 5 A. They war* equivalent, basically. 4 Q. Bave there been any studies, reports "7 demonstrating increased costs incurred by die cast 8 companies as a result of not having PCB fluid available? 9 A. I have not seen any. 10 Q* There is also reference toworking closely 11 with customers and co-producers. Who were some of the 12 co-producers that you were working closely with? 13 A. Bayer in Germany, Rhone-Poulenc in France, 14 Kuhlman, and Caffaro in Italy. 15 Q. Did Bayer, to your knowledge, do any work on 16 biodegradability of PCBs? 17 A. Not to my knowledge. 18 Q. Did any of the othersthat you referenced? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Bad any of them, to your knowledge, either 21 conducted or paid for long-term health effect studies for 22 people exposed to PCBs? 23 A. Bot to my knowledge. 24 Q. When you indicate that you are working 25 closely with them, what was the nature of the working -----------------------------------PERRY REPORTING SERVICE-------------------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000052189 W. **' - - -- 4^^ 1 relationship with Bayer on this subject? 2 A, Well, we took the initiative to go and ask 3 for an audience with their representatives. We shared 4 with then our understanding of the issue, tried to 5 convince then of the seriousness of the matter as it 6 regards that product line and the applications, and tried 7 to get them to -- we were hoping that they would conduct 8 some studies on their own. As it turned out, they 9 preferred to have Monsanto lead the way, and they chose 10 not to take any initiative on their own. 11 Q. Were there any reports of the meetings that 12 Bayer prepared? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did you participate in any of those meetings? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Bow many meetings with Bayer did you have on 17 that subject? 18 A. I personally attended only that one. There 19 were other contacts with Monsanto representatives in 20 Europe and Bayer people in Germany at Industry association 21 meetings and telephone conversations and the like. 22 Informal contacts. 23 0. Did Rhone-Poulencperform anystudies? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you participate inconferences with any PERRY REPORTING SERVICE " WATER PCB-SD0000052190 Computer: Aided Transcription by Xscribe T3T 1 of their representatives? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you alsowith Kuhlman? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And Caffaro? A. And Caffaro. Q. Did any of them provide any funds that were 8 used for studies that wereconducted? 9 A. No. 10 Q. They seemed to think this was an American 11 problem, and the Americans should take care of it? 12 A. Well, to be more blunt, they thought it 13 was -- Monsanto was making a problem, that it really 14 wasn't anybody's problem. 15 Q. Okay. Back in 19 -- let's see. The memo was 16 April of 1970. What regulatory agencies were you working 17 with? 18 A. Oh, in1970, theDepartment of Agriculture; 19 the Department of Interior, through their fish and 20 wildlife people; the beginnings of BPA, which had just 21 been approved and not fully organised as of yet; the Pood 22 and Drug Administration; the Department of Commerce; the 23 Council of Environmental Quality; the Office of Science 24 and Technology of the Executive Office of the President; 25 and I was in contact with regulatory people in Michigan. PERRY REPORTING SERVICE : WATER PCB-SD0000052191 computer aiqqu Transcription oy Ascrioe 13.5" 1 I believe I had started some initial contacts with 2 regulatory people in Wisconsin, the DNR, primarily their 3 laboratory people. That's all I can think o now. 4 Q. For each of the agencies that you had contact 5 with, did you have a separate file set up? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And when you left your post in 1976, were 8 those files referable to those agencies still in the files 0 where the other ones were that we mentioned? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Was there a separate file for each of those, 12 separate file for the Department of Agriculture, a 13 separate file for the Department of Interior, et cetera? 14 A Yes. 15 Q. What did those files consist of? What would 16 be in those generically? 17 A. Whatwould be in them? 18 Q. Yeah. Was itcorrespondence back and forth 19 to the agencies -- 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- or notes of telephone conferences? I'm 22 not saying that that was in there. I'm just trying to 23 give you an idea of the things I'm looking for. 24 A. Primarily letters, memoranda to and from the 25 agencies. Occasionally I would put in to that file a copy PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052192  *#j AOW4 4UC A JO 1 of the "Federal Register" that referred to the agency and 2 PCBs, so that I would have a "Federal Register" file, in 3 addition a copy in, say, the FDA file or the U.S.D.A. 4 file. There might be clippings from journals, the popular 5 press that referred to that agency and to PCBs. That 6 Would be -- 1 Q. Okay. Did you use a numbering system for the 8 pages in your file? 9 A. No. It was chronological. 10 Q. Did your office ever make up an index for the 11 contents of any of the files? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you know whether or not the files exist 14 today in the sane format as they were when you left that 15 position? 15 A. I do not. 17 Q. Do you have some recollection with regard to 18 what specifically your correspondence with the Wisconsin 19 Department of Natural Resources was about? 20 A. As best I remember, 2 don't remember the 21 specific documents,but the subject was primarily one of 22 analytical methods and findings in some of their samples, 23 water samples, fish samples, and that was trying to get 24 their laboratory in touch with Monsanto's laboratory so the labs could talk to each other, compare notes and -----------------------------------PERRY REPORTING SERVICE-------------------------- " WATER PCB-SD0000052193 computer Aided TranscriptionHby Xacri5e 137 1 exchange samples. I have copies of the correspondence 2 that took place between the two labs, and I would get a 3 carbon copy. It was that type of thing, primarily 4 analytical at that time. 5 Q. Whan you say "at that time," was there a 6 change in the subject of the correspondence later on? % A. Later on, it became -- oh, there were, as I 8 remember, some meetings called by the DNR, and in that 9 file would be the notice of the meeting and the invitation 10 to attend. These kinds of things would appear. I can't 11 remember any other specifics, but that's in general the 12 kinds of things that would appear in any of these files. 13 Q. Okay. If you would be kind enough to take a 14 look at page 2 of the paper, beginning two-thirds of the 15 way through the fourth line on the top paragraph, 16 beginning with the phrase, "It appears that." 17 A. I see it. 18 Q. Okay. The sentence reads, and correct me if 19 I read it incorrectly, "It appears that in those uses 20 where control of spillage and disposal can be rigidly 21 exercised and the Aroclors are in sealed containers) e.g. 22 capacitors and transformers, the manufacture of Aroclor 23 1254 and 1260 should be continued." That's the end of 24 that particular sentence. With regard to 1242, does this 25 sentence mean that you thought the 1242 should be PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052194 v.ojapucex Axueu xtanscxi.pcj.ofi uy Ascrxoe 136 1 discontinued? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Okay. At the time that this paper was 4 prepared, was the 1242 still thought to be not a problem? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. When did the status of the 1242change? 7 A. X'a assuming by"status,* you mean the 8 decision? 9 Q. To treat it as the 1254 and 1260. 10 A. It occurred really at about this time. I 11 don't know if it's in this particular write-up, but a 12 meeting following this one, that the corporate management 13 committee -- there's a program outline for phasing out of 14 such uses as the hydraulic fluids, irrespective of the 15 type of PC3. So, I would say in response to your question 16 at about this time it was decided, whether or not 1242 was 17 being identified in the environment, where we can, we will 18 discontinue selling to some uses. 19 Q. In Section III, there are a series of 20 objectives which are stated. First was, "Reduce and 21 effectively control the PCB content of all effluent from 22 Monsanto plant.* At that tine, that is, at the time this 23 paper was prepared, in your opinion, did the Monsanto 24 plant effluents contain higher amounts of PCBs than were 25 desirable? FERRT"REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052195 TompuFer Aided Transcription oy xscnoe XTF 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. Was that true for both Anniston and 3 Kr ununrich? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Was it true for any other Monsanto plants? A. Mo. 7 Q. The phrase "all effluent," I suppose, is 8 somevhat all encompassing. Does that include effluents 9 that vent into municipal sever systems as veil as into the 10 vatervays of the country? 11 A. Yes, anything that left the plant fence. 12 Q. Okay. 13 MR. SCHINK: I think he's asking you about 14 specifically Anniston and Rrummrich. 15 Q. (BY MR. CARLSON) No, I'm talking more about 16 the phrase. all effluent." 17 A. This is all Monsanto plants. 18 Q. I'm a little bit puzzled, and I think maybe 19 you can help me. Earlier today ve discussed the concept 20 that die cast companies, prior to 1970 and post 1970, but 21 die cast companies at all times should have been cognizant 22 of the chemicals that were being used and take steps to 23 see that they did not get into the open vatervays, or, I 24 guess, into the open vatervays as a concept. We discussed 25 that, didn't ve? PerrY reporting service WATER PCB-SD0000052196 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscnbe 1 A. In concept, yes, but I'd like to suggest that 2 we're not talking zero molecules, either. 3 Q. I appreciate that. 4 A. It's controlling the discharge to a point 5 that the environment can tolerate or the neighborhood can tolerate, the community. 7 Q. Sure. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. I'm not saying, you know, one molecule, you 10 know, that kind of thing. What I am looking at is the 11 question of in 1970, hov was Monsanto determining what 12 would be an acceptable discharge level, PCS discharge 13 level, into the waterways from its own plants? 14 A. It wasn't addressing the nation's waterways. 15 It was addressing the amount that left its plant -- 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. -- going into the municipal treatment plant. 18 Q. But you were also discharging some that were 19 going into the waterways, weren't you, waste water? 20 A. With PCBs in them? 21 0. Yes. 22 A. I'm not aware of any. 23 Q. Okay. All of the waste water discharge from 24 any Monsanto plant prior to 1970, went into municipal 25 treatment systems or your own company's treatment system? -----------------------------------PERRY REPORTING SERVICE--------------------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000052197 1 NR. 8CHINKj Ace you talking about the plants 2 where it was manufactured? 3 MR. CARLSONt No, where PCBs were present. 4 A. If PCBs were present in the water effluent. 5 I'm only familiar with those systems that did go to 6 municipal treatment plants. 7 Q. (BY NR. CARLSON) Okay. 8 A. I'm not aware of any plant that discharges 9 into creeks and river beds freely that had PC3s in that 10 effluent. 11 Q. Okay. When you used the phrase discharged 12 into the creeks and river beds freely," does that mean 13 that on occasions it would occur when there were flood 14 conditions, or valves that broke, or what have you? 15 A. That's a poor choice of words. What I meant 16 is it did not go into a system for further treatment. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. It got some preliminary treatment. It might 19 have gotten filtered. It might have gotten aerated, and 20 then it goes out into the public waterways. It doesn't go 21 to a municipal treatment system. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. Under those conditions I'm not aware of any 24 plant that had PCBs in that effluent. 25 Q. In those plants effluent was looked at for PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052198 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscribe 142 1 the purpose of seeing whether or not PCBs were present? 2 A. If PCBs were in that plant in the first 3 place, yeah. 4 Q. Okay. For example, in Pensacola where they 5 are using it in compressors, you check the effluent to see whether it made its way into those waters? 1 A. Right; downstream from that compressor. You 8 wouldn't check the effluent going out the other end of the 9 plant where nylon is made and no PCBs are present. 10 Q. Why was it necessary at that point to then 11 reduce the PCB content of all effluent? 12 A. I don't know that it was necessary; only 13 because Monsanto's management as represented by this group 14 of us working felt that this was the prudent thing to do. 15 Q. Was that sparked by a concern that there 16 could be a potential adverse effect on the environment? 17 A. Could be, yes. 18 Q. The third objective is stated to be, "Develop 19 products to replace Aroclors for those uses in which 20 Aroclors have been demonstrated to be harmful to the 21 environment and cannot be prevented from escaping into the 22 environment." First of all, did I correctly read that 23 objective? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Did that Includedevelopingproducts to ----------------------------------- fttRR? fcftMfcTINC SERVICE---------------------------- --- WATER PCB-SD0000052199 t'ubsi mueu naasccipcion oy ascribe 143 1 replace the then PCB-based hydraulic fluid? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Including the Pydraul 312? 4 A. Yes, which is a more conservative 5 interpretation of the intent if it goes further. 6 0. On page 3, under number 1 of the action plan, 7 first it's stated the objective and then the status, and 8 in the status it says, aA tentative target of 10 ppb in 9 PCB in plant liquid effluent has been established." First 10 of all, I guess I've got to stop right there. Did I 11 correctly read the sentence? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And the target of 10 pbb is the same as we 14 discussed earlier this morning? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. There were no regulations which required you 17 to limit PCB discharge to 10 pbb at that point? 18 A. That is correct. 19 Q. Did you advise any customers that were 20 purchasing PCB fluids from you of any nature that if they 21 were using those fluids, they should try to limit their 22 effluent to 10 ppb of PCBs? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Were these just particular customers that 25 received that information, or was there an attempt to get PERRY REPORTING SERVICE ~ WATER PCB-SD0000052200 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscrioe *441-- 1 that information to all customers? 2 A. The Intent was to get it to all customers. 3 Q. And how was that to be -- 4 A. I personally don't know how well that was 5 done. Q. How was it to be done? ? A. The marketing representatives, who were the 8 primary contact# when discussing PCBs and control, were to 9 use this as an example of a good target that Monsanto had 10 established and that Monsanto was striving for, and ve 11 recommended that they might consider it. 12 Q. Was there consideration given to providing 13 this information to customers in written form? 14 A. Yes* by some of the marketing managers, yes. 15 Q. Can you tell me why that wasn't done? 16 A. Oh, I didn't say it wasn't done. 17 Q. I'msorry. I thought you did, and maybe I 13 misinterpreted. 19 A. I know that I recall definitely that in the 20 electrical applications it was done. I was personally 21 Involved in that one. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. Z do not recall at this moment the specifics 24 of how it was done for hydraulic fluids. That'6 why I 25 made the earlier remark that I don't know the extent that ----------------------------------- FERRY "REPORT!H5" SERVICE--------------------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000052201 Computer Aiaed Transcription by xscribe T45 1 this was carried out. 2 Q. Okay. When the technology to detect PCBs 3 down to the 10 part per billion level or lower was 4 available at Monsanto, do you recall, when they checked 5 the effluent from Anniston, what that level was for PCBs? A* The nuabers escape ae. As X ceaeaber, the rl best X reaeaber, the parts per alllion range, and it was 8 above the solubility, which would indicate that the water 9 was turbid, had particulate matter in it, and the PCBs 10 were associated with that particulate matter. I just 11 don't recall the numbers, but it was hundreds of times 12 bigger than the 10 parts per billion. 13 0. Was that true, also, for the Sauget plant? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Was the soil around the manufacturing 16 facility ever checked by Monsanto to determine PCB 17 content? 18 A. I believe it was, yeah. 19 Q. Do you know how that came up? 20 A. Xt was in the percent level. 21 Q. Oh, was it? 22 A. One percent, very high, thousands of parts 23 per million. 24 Q. How was it getting outside the building? 25 A. This is not a building. It's an outdoor PERRY REPORTING SERVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052202 4. * U 1 structure. 2 Q. I'm sorry. Okay. Every time there's a 3 leak -- 4 A. In the old days it used to kind of dribble on S to the concrete pad and on to the soil, until the curbs were built later. Q. But in those days there really was no concern e about what was going to happen to it? 9 A. Mo. It just stayed there. 10 Q. Do the records of each of the plants n somewhere have the effluent PCB studies? 12 A. They did. I don't know what they have today. 13 Q. When you had the accidental pipe rupture in 14 Pensacola, did any of the PCBs get into the soil outside 15 the building? 16 A. Yes. Yes, and it formed, of course, a trail 17 on down, so that that whole area was dug up, carried away. 18 Q. Switch subjects again. I'm not trying to 19 deceive you, but if I don't remember to ask you now, I may 20 never remember. By any chance do you happen to know who 21 was calling on customers for Monsanto and selling 22 hydraulic fluid back in the middle '60s and early '70s? 23 A. NO. 24 Q. See, I wouldn't have missed anything, anyway. 25 A. There were just too many salesmen. I ------------------------------------- PERRY" REPURTIHG'S'ERVICE------------------------------------ WATER PCB-SD0000052203 Computer Aided Transcription by Xscrloe 147 1 couldn't remember. And there was turnover. 2 Q. How was the sales organization structured? 3 Would there be a salesman assigned to Milwaukee or 4 Wisconsin, and would he report to some regional manager? 5 I'm not trying to suggest that's how it was done, but I'm 6 just trying to find out. 7 A. That's very close. There would be a salesman 8 assigned the hydraulic fluid accounts in a geographic 9 area, and as best I recall, he would report 10 administratively to the regional manager in the Chicago 11 office, and he would report functionally to a marketing 12 manager in St. Louis assigned to that product. In some 4 13 instances these salesmen would handle more than one 14 product-line, depending on the voluae of business, the 15 area covered, the number of customers, and so on. 16 Q. Thank you. Monsanto didn't deliberately dump 17 any amount of PCBs on the ground outside their plants or 18 manufacturing areas? 19 A. Not that I'm aware of. They had their own 20 landfill. They wouldn't need to do that. 21 Q. Okay. But are those circumstances where they 22 would be -- I'm talk about pre-1969 now, where there would 23 be spillage on to your own soil, that wouldn't be of any 24 concern to you because you didn't think that would cause 25 any problem, anyway? PERRY REPORTING 8BRVICE WATER PCB-SD0000052204 Computer Aided Transcription by xscribe I4B 1 A. No. They would just cover It with crushed 2 rock. That's it. 3 0. If you go to page 4, we're on the third 4 objective now, and I'll just read it for the record. 5 "Develop products to replace Aroclors for those uses in 4 which Aroclors have been denonstrated to be harnful to the 7 environment, are resistant to biodegradation, and cannot 8 be prevented fron escaping to the environment." Again, 9 have I read that properly? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And again,that included the 1242? 12 MR. SCHII7Ki What included the 1242? 13 Q. (BY MR.CARLSON) I'msorry. Developing 14 products to replace the 1242 Aroclor. 15 A. It did by a very conservative interpretation 16 of that statement you just read. 17 Q. If we could turn to page 6, the fifth 1C objective, it reads at the top of the page, "Develop 19 methods for effective disposal of wastes containing PCB 20 without contaminating the environment." First of all, 21 have I correctly read the sentence? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And from this would I be correct in inferring 24 that, in your opinion, at that time better methods were 25 needed for effective disposal of PCB waste? -----------------------------------PERRY ' REPORTING-SERVICE--------------------------------- WATER PCB-SD0000052205 computer Aloe a iTanscription-by Xscribe ni 1 A. Well, I don't know so much better as a 2 variety of ways were to be explored to give much more 3 flexibility for different circumstances that might arise. 4 Q. Which methods were explored besides the 5 incineration and landfill? A. Oh, sand bed filtering, carbon bed filtering, 1 removal by centrifuging, all of these. I don't claim to 8 know them all. The laboratory tried everything that came 9 to mind. Many of them were failures. 10 Q. Any of them that proved to be economically 11 effective? 12 A. Mot really. The best way was to prevent it 13 from mixingwith water to start with. That was the best 14 way. . 15 Q. If we could turn to page 7, at the top it 16 reads, "Evaluate alternate methods of disposal by 17 incineration - Monsanto operated vs. contract." Again, I 18 correctly read the sentence? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did Monsanto ever have a contract with other 21 concerns for incineration of PCBs? 22 A. Eventually. 23 Q, When was that? 24 A. We had arrangements with the Rollins unit in 25 Baton Rouge and in Deer Park, Texas. As best I remember. 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