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WF _ rtf TIE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF WEST VIRGINIA CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA JAMES M. ADKINS, A d m in is tra to r ) o f the E sta te o f Ralph E. A dkins,) Deceased, e t a l , ) ) P lain tiffs, ) ) vs. ) MONSANTO COMPANY, a D elaw are C orporation, ) ) ) D efendant. ) ) No. 81-2098 D eposition of DR. ERNEST TILLMAN taken on b e h a lf o f th e P lain tiffs. R e p o rte r! M. Jo y S p rin g e r J ames M ay R eporting S ervice CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS R R 2 - BOX 65 ED W AR D SVILLE, IL L IN O IS 62025 i* Il / 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF WEST VIRGINIA 2 CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA 3 ,4 JAMES M. ADKINS, A d m in is tra to r ) o f the E s ta te of Ralph E. A dkins, ) 5 Deceased, e t a l, ) 6 ) P lain tiffs, ) l\ 7, vs. ) ) No. 81-2098 8 ; MONSANTO COMPANY, a D elaw are ) ) C orporation, ) 9! ! ) Defendant. ) 10 11 i i Ap p e a r a n c e s : 12 1 Paul L, P ra tt, Esq. For P la in tiffs , 13 ! M essrs. Bowles, McDavid, G raff & 14 ! Love, by P. M ichael P leska, Esq. 15 ; and ; C h a rle s M. Love, I I I , E sq. For D efen d an t. 16 17 18 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between 19 c o u n s e l f o r th e p l a i n t i f f s and c o u n s e l f o r th e d e fe n d a n t 20 t h a t th e d e p o s itio n o f DR. ERNEST TILLMAN may be tak en 21 p u rs u a n t to Rule 2 6 (a ) o f th e F e d e r a l R ules o f C i v il 22 P ro c e d u re , on b e h a lf o f th e p l a i n t i f f s , on June 27 and 23 June 28, 1983, a t th e R ad isso n H o te l, Room 215, 9 th 24 S t r e e t and C onvention P la z a , S t . L o u is , M is s o u ri, b e fo re 25 M. JOY SPRINGER, a N o ta ry P u b lic w ith in and f o r th e J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 4 County of Madison, S ta te of I l l i n o i s ; th a t the issuance of n o tic e and dediraus is w aived, and th a t th is d ep o si t i o n may be tak en w ith th e same fo rc e and e f f e c t a s i f a l l F ed eral ru le s and s ta tu to r y requirem ents had been complied w ith . IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED t h a t any and a l l objections to a l l or any p art of th is deposition ex cep t o b je c tio n s as to form of the questions asked or answ ers g iv e n , a r e h ereb y re s e rv e d and may be r a is e d or l the t r i a l of th is cause; and th a t the sig n atu re of the deponent is n o t w aived. ********* DR, ERNEST TILLMAN p ro d u ced , sworn and exam ined on b e h a lf o f th e p l a i n t i f f s , Reposes and says as follow s: EXAMINATION BY MR. PRATT; (thereupon the r e p o r te r marked P la in tif f s * D ep o sitio n E x h ib it #128, Monsanto id e n tific a tio n #8330036, co n sistin g of 1 page; J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E I . v " i '. E x h ib it #129, Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8330067 and #833068, c o n s is tin g of 2 pages; E x h ib it #130, Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a tio n #8322902,c o n s is tin g of 1 page; E x h ib it #131, Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8326238, co n sistin g of 1 page; E xhibit #132, Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8323065 through #8323070, in c lu siv e , co n sistin g of 6 pages; and E x h ib it #133, Monsanto id e n tific a tio n #233695, co n sistin g of 1 page; E x h ib it #134, Monsanto i d e n t i f i ca tio n #8323177 and #8323178, c o n s istin g of 2 pages; E x h ib it #135, Monsanto iden tif ic a ti o n #8331253 through #8331259, in c lu s iv e , and #8331262 through #8331271, c o n s is tin g of 17 p ag e s; E x h ib it #136, Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8323234 and #8323235, co n sistin g of 2 pages; E xhibit #137, Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #236212 through #236215, in c lu siv e , co n sistin g of 4 pages; E x h ib it #138, Monsanto i d e n t i f i ca tio n #8323313 through #8323315, c o n s ist ing of 3 pages; E x h ib it #139, Monsanto id e n tific a tio n #8326129 through #8326142, in c lu siv e , and #8326145 through #8326160, J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E in c lu s iv e , c o n s is tin g of 26 pages; E x h ib it #140, Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8324030, c o n s is tin g o f 1 p age; E x h ib it #141, Mon santo id e n tific a tio n #8324046, co n sistin g of 1 page; E x h ib it #142, Monsanto i d e n t i f i ca tio n #234851 and #234352, c o n sistin g of 2 pages; E x h ib it #143, Monsanto i d e a t i t i - . c a tio n #234905 through $234913, c o n sistin g of 9 pages; E x h ib it #144, Monsanto i d e n t i f i cation #232202, co n sistin g of 1 page; E x h ib it #145, Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8324311 through #8324313, in c lu siv e , co n sistin g of 3 pages; E xhibit #146, Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #232235, c o n s is t ing of 1 page; E x h ib it #147, Monsanto I d e n tif ic a tio n #232236 and #232237,, con s i s t i n g of 2 pages; E x h ib it #148, Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #232246 through #232267, in c lu s iv e , c o n s is tin g of 22 pages; E x h ib it #149, Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8326531 through #8326533, in c lu siv e , co n sistin g of 3 pages; E x h ib it #150, Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #232273 and #232274, c o n s is tin g of 2 pages; E x h ib it #151, Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #232305 through #232316, in c lu s iv e , c o n sistin g J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E of 12 p ag es; E x h ib it #152, Monsanto id e n tific a tio n #232333, co n sistin g of 1 page; E x h ib it #153, Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a tio n #832439G th ro u g h #3324397, in c lu siv e , co n sistin g of 2 pages; and E xhibit #154, Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #232390 \ through #232394, in c lu siv e , co n sistin g of 5 pages, fo r the purposes of id e n tif ie s tio n ,) Q (By Mr. P r a t t ) T e ll us your name, w ill you, please. A E rnest Tillm an. Q Do you have a p ro fe s s io n ? A I'm a p h y sician . Q And what is your c u r r e n t p o s itio n ? A I'm S enior P h y sician w ith Monsanto Company a t World H e a d q u a rte rs. Q Do you have p e rs o n n e l under you, s i r ? A Not d ire c tly . Q What does th a t jo b e n t a i l , th a t p o s itio n ? A P r im a r ily we a r e concerned w ith th e h e a lth m atters re la te d to a number of p la n ts assigned to our resp o n sib ility . in that? Q A ll r i g h t . And w hat do you do involved A We c o n s u lt w ith them on h e a lth m a tte r s , J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E f . 6} 'i j" `2 3 4' * ... . %" 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 *l id e n tify the need fo r h e a lth su rv eillan c e programs, see to i t those programs a re implemented, ev alu ate the re s u lts of the program, advise a d d itio n a l m atters. MR. PRATT: A ll r i g h t . Your Honor, a t t h i s p o in t we would c a l l t h i s w itn e ss under F e d e ra l Rules o f Evidence No. 611. \ Q (By Mr. P r a t t ) Now, w here d id you graduate from m edical school and when, s ir ? A Hahnemann M edical C o lleg e and H o s p ita l in P h ila d e lp h ia , 1956. I t ' s new known a s Hahnemann U niversity. Q A fte r th a t d id you have a r o ta tin g in te rn s h ip ? A I did. Q Where a t? A At N azareth H ospital in P hiladelphia. Q . A fte r th a t did you have a resid en cy in any specialty ? A Because of the n ature of licen sin g p rocedures in P ennsylvania a t th a t tim e, I d id work in a re sid e n t p o sitio n in p sychiatry a t the P hiladel- phia S tate H ospital fo r approxim ately eight.m onths, nine months, in th a t range. Q Are you Board c e r tif ie d in any f ie ld of m edicine? J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E i A O ccupational M edicine. Q O ccupational and Environm ental Medicine? A O ccupational M edicine, Q When d id you r e c e iv e your Boards? A In 1979. Q \ Boards, sir? What work d id you do to re c e iv e your A In a d d itio n to the standard medical tr a in in g , a number of p o st-g ra d u a te sem inars, c o u rse s, tra in in g courses, gathered c re d its in th a t fashion and attended the m ini-residency a t the U niversity of C incinnati. Q T hat was under whom? A Under Sydney Leonard and the U n iv ersity of C in c in n a ti's M edical School. Q How long were you a t C in c in n a ti M edical School? A That com prised a three-w eek concentrated course and th ree one-week followup se ctio n fo r the next three years, Q When you l e f t your p s y c h ia tr ic p o s i t i o n , . where d id you go? A I was in th e p ro c e ss d u rin g th a t r e s i dency of building a general p ractice in P hilad elp h ia, and when t h a t came to f r u i t i o n so I co u ld su p p o rt a J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E b .. .. ' i I- 1 '1 2 3 -4 `-5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 : 21 22 23 24 25 *\ fam ily from the proceeds I l e f t the resid en cy and went in to general p ra c tic e f u l l tim e. Q What y ear would th a t have been? A That would have been March o f 1958. Q How long d id you p r a c t ic e in g n ra l medicine in P h ilad elp h ia? A From a c t u a l l y Septem ber o f 1957, o v e rlap p in g the re sid e n c y , u n t i l December of 1965. Q And where d id you go a f t e r 1965? A 1 w ent to work f o r th e DuPont Company i in t h e i r Chambersburg P la n t in New J e r s e y . Q And what was your p o s itio n w ith them? A I was a S t a f f P h y sic ia n in the M edical Department th e re . Q And w hat were th o se r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s , what did you do th e re , s ir ? A P r im a r ily i t was ex am in atio n o f em- p lo y e e s , o v e r s ig h t of s p e c i f i c m e d ica l program s. My p a r tic u la r r e s p o n s i b i l i t y was h e a rin g c o n s e rv a tio n . We a l s o o p e ra te d a s ic k c a l l c l i n i c where we would t r e a t i n j u r i e s o c c u rrin g on th e jo b and s ic k n e s s e s t h a t were not n e c e ssa rily job re la te d . Q O.K. How long were you w ith DuPont? A U n til September of 1968. Q Where d id you go th e n , s i r ? J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 A To th e C lin C o rp o ra tio n in E a s t A lto n , Illin o is. Q And what was your p o s itio n w ith them? A I was P la n t M edical D ire c to r th e r e . Q Was DuPont, th e p la n t you were a t , a chem ical plant? A Yes. Q The O lin p l a n t was n o t, r ig h t? A No. Q How long were you w ith O lin a t E a s t A lton? A U n til November 3 0 th , 1974. Q And you came to work a t t h a t tim e f o r Monsanto, rig h t? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q What was your f i r s t p o s it io n t h e r e , s i r ? A Was h ir e d a s a S e n io r P h y s ic ia n . . Q And were your d u tie s the sanie as you rela ted before? A T hat was p a r t o f th e d u ty . We were b u ild in g a Department of Environm ental M edicine, Environ m ental H ealth and M edicine, in those days, and our job a c tu a lly evolved in to what i t is new. I a ls o had charge of th e Creve Coeur C lin ic f o r , p e rh a p s, two y ears a t th e b e g in n in g o f my tim e w ith M onsanto. J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E . ) 1 '1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 *- . 1 -> 2 1 22 23 24 25 '\ Q O.K. Now, in ycur d u tie s have you been in v o lv e d w ith a ch em ical known a s 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 t e t r a chlorodibenzo-para-dioxin? A I'm s o rry , would you s a y ,th a t a g a in . Q Have you been in v o lv e d w ith a ch em ical 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 tetrachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin? V A I'm n o t s u re I know w hat you mean by 11in v o lv ed w ith ." Q W ell, have you done any work of any kind or any n atu re involving th is p a rtic u la r chem ical in regard to stu d ies, for instance? A I'v e not overseen any studies personally in th a t. Q Have you been in v o lv e d in th e N itr o P la n t H ealth Study Task Force? A Yes, I have . Q O.K. When d id t h a t b e g in , s i r ? A To th e b e s t o f my r e c o l l e c t i o n , t h a t would have been probably la te June or e a rly Ju ly , 1979. Q And who w ere th e members o f t h i s Task Force? A I d o n 't remember ev ery o n e t h a t was on th a t Task Force, but th ere were a ra th e r larg e group of u s. P hocion P a rk , who i s our e n v iro n m e n ta l a t t o r n e y ; B i l l M cC arville; a t th e time of i t s i n it ia t io n Fred H olzapfel J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 10 j 1 1 was our Chairman; the P la n t Manager from the N itro P lan t 2 V7as one o f th e members. O c c a s io n a lly someone e ls e w hen 3 he c o u ld n o t make i t would f i l l in f o r him from th e ' 4 p l a n t b u t w as n o t a n o r n a l member o f th e com m ittee. 5 We had P u b lic R e la tio n s p eo p le th e r e . 6 Q L e t 's see i f we can g e t them down. 7 H o lz a p fe l was th e Chairm an, r ig h t? 8 A R ig h t. In the beginning he was. 9 Q A l l r i g h t . You w ere on i t ? 10 A Yes. n Q Dan Bishop was on i t , r ig h t? 12 A Y es. 13 Q C. F. C a llis ? 14 A Yes. ' 15 Q W. J . M cC arv llle? 16 A Yes. 17 Q I s M cC arv llle a p h y sic ia n ? 18 A No, s i r . 19 Q F . C. Meyer was on i t , r i g h t ? 20 A T h a t's r i g h t , y e s, he w as. .21 Q I s he a p h y s ic ia n ? 22 A No. 23 Q R. M. S c o tt was th e P la n t Manager? 24 A P la n t Manager a t th e N itr o P la n t, r i g h t . 25 Q P . R. W ilk in s? '< l J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E A F or a tim e , y e s . He was n o t on th a t com m ittee a t th e same tim e , a s I r e c a l l , t h a t Dan Bishop w as. T h a t may be i n c o r r e c t , b u t I'm n o t su re i f th e y se rv e d a t the same tim e, Q Was J . T. Nolan on i t ? A I d id n o t see him a t any o f our * m e e tin g s. He may have been an e x - o f f i c i o member, b u t I have n o t seen him a tte n d in g . Q Hew a b o u t H. T hrodahl? A No. Q What was h is p o s itio n a t th a t tim e? A As I r e c a l l , he was a S e n io r V ice P re s id e n t, which he s t i l l i s . Q O.K. Would he have been over th is group in the C orporate heirarchy7 A Yes. I t was h is in s tr u c tio n th a t led to the form ation of the com mittee. Q Did the Mt, S in a i group w ith the S te e lw o rk e rs and some g o v ern m en tal ag en cy r e q u e s t p e r m ission to study the workers a t N itro? A Not from me. Q Did th e y from anyone in th e company? A I d o n 't know. Q W ell, did in fa c t a study pursue? A I'v e been to ld th a t I t had. I did not J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l > $ p 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 see i t , but I have been to ld th a t i t had. study -- Q W ell, y o u 're aw are t h a t th e re was a A Yes, I am. > Q A ll r i g h t . Do you know when th a t stu d y began? A A t some tim e in 1979, b u t I'm n o t sure what the dates a re . Q A ll r i g h t . S im u lta n e o u sly d id - - Do you know Dr. Susk in d , by th e way? A Yes, I do. Q Sim ultaneously did Dr. Suskind begin a s tu d y o f th e se sane in d iv id u a ls or form er members and members of the - - A I d o n 't think sim ultaneously is the c o r r e c t w ord. He d id do a s tu d y , th o u g h , a s I u n d e r sta n d i t , some- s h o r t tim e a f t e r th e S in a i group d id t h e i r study. I d o n 't re c a ll the S in ai d ates. Q O.K. What we a r e g o in g to do, s i r , because documents a re involved and they w ill help us in th is exam ination, I'm going to hand you c e r ta in docu ments and I 'm g o in g to a s k you some q u e s tio n s on them. F i r s t e x h ib it I'm going to hand you is P l a i n t i f f s ' Depo s i t i o n E x h ib it #35 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8322384). Y ou're e ith e r a r e c ip ie n t or re c e iv e r of a copy or the J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1# r. 1 , i 1 2 3 . , ' , ; *-4 y* 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 -21 *" ?2 23 24 25 . o rig in a to r of these documents. T his is a l e t t e r on Monsanto s ta tio n e r y d a te d t k r c h 29, *79, from F . C. M eyer, D ir e c to r o f Ex- perim ental P ro jects, is i t not, sir? A Yes, i t is . Q And i t ' s to Dr. Ife rio n Moses of th e Mt. S in a i M edical C en ter in New York, i s n ' t t h a t c o r r e c t? A R ight. Q And you' r e shown a s r e c e iv in g a b lin d copy, is n 't th a t correct? A That's co rrect. Q This le tte r d isc u sse s, does i t n o t, sending a l i s t of clo ck numbers of a c tiv e and r e t ir e d em ployees who w ere a s s o c ia te d w ith 2 ,4 ,5 -T and r e l a t e d in te rm ed ia te sodium 2 ,4 ,5 tric h lo ro p h e n a te d u ring the p e rio d 1948 through 1969, i s n ' t th a t c o rre c t? A . I don't see anything about tric h lo ro - phenate in h ere. I t does re fe r to 2 ,4,5-T . I stand c o rre c te d . I t 's s ta te d In the fo u rth lin e down, t h a t 's c o rre c t. Q A ll r i g h t . And i t ' s a l i s t o f a c t i v e and r e tir e d employees? A I t re fe rs to such a l i s t . Q And i t ' s d iv id e d i n t o two p a r t s on th is l i s t . I th in k i t s ta te s those d ire c tly exposed to *1 J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 * . ** ' . T 1 1 62 3 * 4 ', : r [' 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 ;i;' 22 23 24 25 2 ,4 ,5 -T o p e ra tin g departm ents and, two, those p o te n tia lly exposed in o th e r d ep artm en ts w here some o f th e f i n a l 2 ,4 ,5 -T p ro d u c t was d r ie d , i s n ' t t h a t c o r r e c t? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q I t s ta te s in the la tte r case -- I guess they are ta lk in g about 2 ,4 ,5 trich lo ro p h en ate departm ents -- They were unable to give the K t. S in a i people c le a r work h isto ry records, I s n 't th at correct? A I t ju s t sim ply says, "Not included." S tates no reason. Q " I n th e l a t t e r case we c a n 't be s u re from the work h is to ry records a lo n e ." A I thought you s a id in th e l a s t p arag rap h . Q No. The second - - rig h t. A O.K. I see where you a r e . Yes, t h a t 's Q But they were n o t ab le to include en- c lo s e d l i s t o f o th e r em ployees who o c c a s io n a lly or a c c id e n ta lly had o p p o rtu n ity fo r exposure, such as m aintenance, co n tro l la b , e t c e te ra , personnel? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q O.K. L e t me a s k you t h i s , have you perform ed work in the n a tu re of th e stu d y th a t they were going to do? A Have I done su ch a stu d y ? *1 l JAME 5 MAYR E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E .$ ^ 15 & *f 1 ._ r^ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Yes. A Ho. T his is an ep id em io lo g ic fu n c tio n , and I'm not an ep id em io lo g ist. Q Of c o u r s e , you have a w orking knowledge of epidemiology? A I would have to know som ething a b o u t i t in my jo b , s e e . Q O.K. Of c o u rs e , one o f th e th in g s t h a t 's v ery im p o rtan t fo r one doing an e p id e m io lo g ic a l study is to g et a c c u ra te work h is to ry re c o rd s, i s n 't th a t correct? A T hat's co rrect. Q The n e x t e x h i b i t , D o cto r, I 'm going to hand you is P l a i n t i f f s ' D ep o sitio n E x h ib it #122 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #8330067), a sk you to look a t th at, s ir. This document, P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #129, is on M onsanto's s t a t i o n e r y and i t ' s a l e t t e r from J u d it h Z ack, E p id e m io lo g is t, to Dr. Raymond R. S u sk in d , D ir e c to r , I n s titu te of Environm ental H ealth, K etterin g Laboratory a t the U n iv ersity of C in cin n ati, dated A p ril 18, 1979, is i t not, sir? A That's co rrect. Q O.K. M rs. Z ack, a p p a r e n tly -- and i t ' s a l s o shown th a t you re c e iv e d a b lin d copy of th a t docum ent, . *1 l J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E $ 1 right? A I did. Q Who i s Mr. 0. D olin? A 0. D olin is employed a t 'the N itro P lan t Q And what was h is p o s itio n th e r e , s ir ? A To the b e s t of my know ledge, h e 's the C hief Chemist a t the p la n t. Q Is he also the S afety D irector? A No, s i r . 0 And in th e f i r s t p arag rap h o f t h a t l e t t e r Mrs. Zack is c a te g o r iz in g a p p ro x im a tely 700 a c tiv e r e tir e d and term inated employees according to b ir th c a te , r a c e , se x , s a l a r y code and ty p e o f ex p o su re 9- i s n ' t t h a t c o rre c t? A T h a t1s c o r r e c t . Q I take i t , th a t was fo r the purpose o f b e g in n in g th e stu d y t h a t Dr. S uskind d id on th e N itro em ployees, is n ' t th a t co rrect? A I c a n ' t sa y t h a t I r e a l l y know t h a t . I was given in fo rm a tio n a l co p ies of th e se th in g s , b u t I w asn' t d i r e c t l y in v o lv e d in w hat was going on in t h i s type of communication. Q 0,K. W ell, they did a m orbidity stu d y , did they n o t, eventually? A Yes, s ir . J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E i %` 1 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q would you t e l l th e ju r y what a m o rb id ity study is . A I t 's the study of the causes of death in a given p o p u latio n , id e n tify in g s p e c ific causes and r e la tin g those s p e c ific causes to the expected number of d e a th s f o r th o se same ca u ses in a g iv en p o p u la tio n . \ Q Wouldn' t th a t be a m o rta lity stu d y , s i r ? A Yes, I 'm s o rry . I 'm d e sc rib in g mort a l i t y , n o t m o rb id ity . A c tu a lly th is would be a study o f th e "types of i l l n e s s e s t h a t occur in a given group and comparing those in c id e n ts of illn e s s to a c o n tro l group h av in g th e same i l l n e s s e s . Q And she s t a t e s t h a t th e re a r e th re e groups, as I see i t in the l e tte r , is n 't th a t co rrect? A T h at's r ig h t. Q F i r s t group was th o se em ployees who worked in a 2 ,4 ,5 -T production a re a , re g a rd le ss of w hether or not they had chloracne, is th a t rig h t? A T hat's rig h t. Q And th en a l s o in c lu d e d were th o se emp lo y e es who worked in a r e a s su ch a s M ain ten an ce, b u t who developed chloracne from an in terraitten tex p o su re to 2,4,5-T? A T hat's rig h t. Q Right? A That's rig h t. `V l J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E ..i li f. ( "l1 11 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 *t -r - * Q Cf co u rse, in P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it #35, *iiich is the l e t t e r from Meyer to Moses, th ey , a p p a re n tly , were unable to give the Mt. S in a i people th a t d a ta , such as on M aintenance p e o p le , i s n ' t t h a t r i g h t ? \ A T h at's what i t sa id . Q The in te r m itte n t exposure group, these \ w ere em ployees who worked on a jo b t h a t e n t a i l e d i n t e r m ittert exposure to 2,4,5-T but did not develop chloracne, is n 't th at correct? A I'm so rry . Say th a t ag a in . Q The i n te r m itte n t group were th o se emp lo y e es who worked on a jo b t h a t e n t a il e d i n t e r m i t t e n t ex p o su re to 2 ,4 ,5 - T b u t who d id n o t d evelop c h lo ra c n e , is n 't th at correct? A Yes. Q And t h a t group in c lu d e d vjorkers in T echnical S erv ices, M aintenance, C ontrol Laboratory and other plantw ide re s p o n s ib ilitie s , co rrect? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q And the t h i r d g ro u p , w hich is c a lle d a c o n t r o l g ro u p , a r e th o se em ployees who worked in th e o ffic e or in operating departm ents not asso ciated w ith 2,4,5-T production, rig h t? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q New, w hat i s th e im p o rta n c e , s i r , o f a J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E ` l r,. i . 1 control group? A This kind o f a stu d y would be used to e s ta b lis h the norm fo r a p a r tic u la r p o p u latio n as to the incidence of d isease, causes of death, i f i t fs m ortality study. I t ' s a b asis of comparison fo r the group under study. \ Q Do you th in k t h a t g e t tin g a c o n tr o l group out o f the p la n t is good epidem iologic p ra c tic e ? A Oh, y e s , indeed I do. Q In other words, i t 's your p o sitio n th a t a s lo n g a s th e y w eren *11 a s s o c ia te d w ith 2 ,4 ,5 - T , ever: though they were in th e p la n t, th a t c o n tro l group would be a l l r ig h t, rig h t? A Indeed i t would. Q O.K, Monsanto stopped m an u factu rin g 2 ,4 ,5 -T in 1969 a t th a t p la n t, i s n ' t th a t r ig h t? A 1969 or *70. I 'm n o t p r e c is e ly s u re , but I believe th a t's co rrect, yes. Q Do you know o f an y o f th e em ployees t h a t have come down or develo p ed c h lo ra c n e s in c e the cessation of a c tiv itie s involving 2,4 ,5 -T a t th a t plan t? A A re you t a l k i n g a b o u t em ployees who had been in the 2,4 ,5 -T operation? Q No. P eople t h a t came to work th e re afterw ards. J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l - ji 1 A Oh, y e s . 2 Q You have had em ployees t h a t have de 3 v elo p ed c h lo ra c n e even though you no lo n g e r make th e 4 product? 5 A Ve have had p eo p le who have had what 6 was diagnosed as a ch em ically -in d u ced acn e, 7 Q O.K. Can you g iv e me th e l a t e s t case 8 t h a t you know of? 9 A By name? 10 Q By y e a r . 11 A My memory s e rv e s me c o r r e c t l y , i t would 12 be 1981. 13 Q You remember w h eth er t h a t was a male 14 or a fem ale? 15 A T here a r e th r e e fem ales in v o lv e d and l two m ales, I b e l ie v e . 17 Q . Hew would th e y g e t exposed to g e t th e 18 a c n e , s i r , do you know? 19 A T here was a problem in th e S an ta cu re NS 20 D epartm ent w hich was found to be th e p ro b a b le cause of 21 t h i s s i t u a t i o n . T o ta lly u n r e la te d to 2 ,4 ,5 - T . 22 Q Hand y o u w h a f 's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' 23 E x h ib it #130, (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #8322902), and a s k 24 you w hat t h a t i s . 25 T h a t's a memo t o F . C. M eyer, George J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E '} l 1 Roush, J r . , y o u rse lf and Jan Yung, r ig h t? 2 A T h at's c o rre c t. 3 Q And i t ' s from J u d it h Zack, and i t ' s 4 d a te d May 30, 1979, r i g h t ? 5 A C orrect. 6 Q And th e s u b je c t is K itr o M edical \ 7 Exam ination Study, rig h t? 8 A R ight. 9 Q And what t h i s g iv e s is as o f May 3 0 th , 10 1979, th e y had a b o u t 320 p eo p le who had a g re e d to p a r 11 t i c i p a t e in th e s tu d y , i s n ' t t h a t r i g h t ? 12 A T h a t's r i g h t . 13 Q And th e r e i s a breakdown on th e ty p es 14 o f em ployees, c o r r e c t? 15 A R i g h t. 16 Q New, l e t me a s k yout h i s , w hat p r e 17 c i p i t a t e d th e .stu d y by Dr. S u sk in d a t t h a t tim e? 18 A A t t h a t tim e t h a t was a c o n tin u a tio n 19 o f a s tu d y he had s t a r t e d a lm o s t t h i r t y y e a rs b e f o r e . 20 Q O.K. Do you know w hat s t u d i e s he con 21 d u c te d o v er th e y e a rs ? 22 A He resp o n d ed to a r e q u e s t in 1949 a lo n g . 23 w ith o th e rs from th e U n iv e r s ity o f C in c in n a ti t o examine 24 p e o p le who had been exposed in a runaw ay r e a c t i o n in one 25 o f th e b u ild in g s a t th e N itr o P la n t. He e v a lu a te d th e s e J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E i p ,p "1 1 t 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 .2 2 23 24 25 < people in 1949, a g a in in 1950 and in 1953, as I r e c a l l . Q A ll r i g h t . Was th e r e e v e r any stu d y d one, m o rb id ity s tu d y , done on th e se p eo p le from '53 u n t i l *79? A Each of them had a v a ila b le to them, an d to th e test o f my know ledge, many p a r t i c i p a t e d in a p e rio d ic p h y sic al e lim in a tio n program which continued through the years. Q T hat was done a t th e p l a n t , r ig h t? A Yes. Q L e t me a s k you, can you t e l l us who th e p l a n t d o c to r was a l l th o se y e a rs? A I'm n o t s u re who was th e r e b e fo re a b o u t 1950 or *51, b u t from t h a t tim e on i t has been R ichard C. W a lla c e . Q O.K. I th in k he"began th e re Septem ber 5 th of 1950, rig h t? A I'm not sure of the d a te s, but as fa r a s I can t e l l you, i t was n e a r t h a t tim e. Q These follow up p h y sic a ls, what did they c o n sist of? A That v a rie d from time to tim e in terms o f w hat th e p erso n would a llo w to be done. Some p eople d i d n 't p a r t i c i p a t e , b u t i t would be a ro u tin e la y in g on o f th e hands, la b o ra to ry work th a t was a p p ro p ria te to the J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l : v- . . 22 99 " 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 i 25 *i i findings of th a t exam ination, x -ra y s, chest x -ray s. T h at's p re tty w ell i t . Standard fo r the industry in those days. Q A ll r i g h t . They had p h y sic a l exams, is n 't th at correct? A T h at's r ig h t. \ Q But a s f a r a s -- and t h a t was done a t the p la n t, rig h t? A T h at's r ig h t. Q There w a s n 't r o u tin e ly any blood work done, was th e re ? A No, n o t r o u t i n e l y . As I s a i d , when th e re was an in d ic a tio n fo r blood work, i t would be done,. I f th e re was a p h y s ic a l fin d in g th a t su g g ested th e re was a problem , then la b o ra to ry work a p p ro p ria te to th a t fin d in g would be done. Q During th a t p erio d of time d id th ey do la b o r a to r y w ork, s a y , from *54 on on anyone t h a t you knew about? A W ell, I c a n 't r e a l l y t e l l you th a t because I d o n 't have the records to look in , so I c a n 't sa y from ray knowledge t h a t I have s a t and t r i e d to memorize w hat was done. I f I had the re c o rd s to r e f e r to -- Q What would have been th e c r i t e r i o n or p r o to c o l f o r a r o u tin e exam? J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E l s 2i A The f a c t y o u 're an employee is th e p ro to c o l fo r having one done. I t ' s been the p o lic y fo r many, many y e a rs to p ro v id e p h y s ic a l e x a m in a tio n s. Q I t would be an eye t e s t , w o u ld n 't it? A I t might be. Q Hearing te s t? A I t may be. Q A p h y s ic a l exam, lo o k in g a t th e man? A Yes. q O.K. Were th e r e an y ex am in atio n s tc id e n tify , fo r ins&nce, p erip h e ra l neuropathy? A I d o n 't th in k th e re were any exam inations s p e c if ic a lly beyond the u su al hands-on th a t were a v a ila b le in nany of these years th a t you're ta lk in g about. Q To your know ledge, d id S uskind from *57 th ro u g h t h i s tim e , d id th e y come down and examine any of these people th e irse lv e s? A X r e a lly c a n 't say because I w asn 't th e re u n til 1974. Q Did he from 1974, t h a t you know o f , u n t i l 1979? A Yes. Q When? A In 1979. Q O.K. But n o th in g from '7 4 on up th a t J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E i 1 you know o f ;u n t i l '7 9 ? 2 A Not t h a t X V7as in v o lv e d in or knew o f 3 my own p e r s o n a l know ledge, no. 4 Q The f i r s t exam in *49 and *50 in v o lv ed 5 four people, did i t not? 6 A 1949, I believe i t involved four people. 7 In 1950, I b e lie v e , th ere were more. 8 Q There were a to ta l o f, what, th ir ty 9 sev en t h a t w ere seen in 153? 10 A X d o n 't know w hat th e number i s . 11 Q Hand y o u wh a t 's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' 12 E x h ib it #131 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #8326238) s i r , and 13 a s k you to lo o k a t t h a t . 14 T his docum ent, s i r , o r ig in a t e d from 15 F , J . H o lz a p fe l. 16 A T h e re '6 no su ch s ig n a tu r e on t h i s , 17 a lth o u g h , th e h ea d in g o f th e l e t t e r i n d i c a t e s t h a t . 18 Q D ated June 8 , 1979, r i g h t ? 19 A T h a t's th e d a t e . 20 Q And th e s u b j e c t i s th e N itr o H e a lth 21 S tu d y Task F orce? 22 A T h a t's c o r r e c t . 23 Q And i t r e f e r e n c e s M essrs. W ilk in s , 24 McKee, T h ro d ah l and N o lan , r i g h t ? 25 A R ig h t. J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 Q And i t ' s to -fcssrs. B ishop, C a l l i s , 2 H o lz a p fe l, KcCarv i l l e , I-ieyer, P ark , S c o tt, T il lean and 3 W ilkins, correct? 4 A T h at's rig h t. 5 Q O.K. And t h i s docum ent, a p p a r e n tly , i s the fo rm a tio n o f th e Ad Hoc Task Group, r i g h t ? 7 A T h at's r ig h t. 8 Q The p urpose o f i t was to th in k th ro u g h 9 and fo rm a liz e a s t r a t e g y and a p la n t h a t w i l l make c e r 10 t a i n a l l a p p r o p r ia te re s o u r c e s w ith in or o u ts id e the 11 C o rp o ra tio n a r e b e in g a p p lie d to r e s o lv e th e many i n t e r 12 r e l a t e d and d i f f i c u l t s i t u a t i o n s su rro u n d in g th e N itr o 13 H e a lth S tudy in v o iin g tr ic h lo r o p h e n o l, i s n ' t t h a t c o r r e c t? 14 A T h a t's c o r r e c t . 15 Q W h at's t h i s b u s in e s s a b o u t a s tu d y 16 o r s t r a t e g y or a p la n , w hat w ere you going to do? What 17 i s th e purpose o f t h i s o r g a n iz a tio n ? IB A One o f th e th in g s you have to do when 19 a s tu d y l i k e t h i s i s done is to be p re p a re d to r e p o r t 20 to th o se who p a r t i c i p a t e d w hat th o se f in d in g s w ere. 21 T h at c a l l s f o r a p p r o p r ia te p ro c e d u re s to be fo llo w e d 22 so t h i s th in g is done c o r r e c t ly and th e people a r e 23 p r o p e r ly in fo rm ed . 24 Q The l a s t p a ra g ra p h s t a t e s , "F o r 25 o p e n e rs , we need t o do some b ra in s to rm in g - - t o i d e n t i f y J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l 1 p o s s ib le a c t i v i t i e s -- some o f w hich en a b le us to r e a c t 2 to c h a rg e s o r a d v e rs e p u b l i c i t y and some o f w hich m ight 3 a v e r t such ad v e rse p u b lic ity or c r e a te a more fa v o ra b le 4 c lim a te ." 1 take i t , th e n , th a t one o f th e fu n c tio n s of 5 t h i s co m m ittee, t h i s Aq Hoc Com m ittee, was to c r e a te 6 p u b lic ity involving the study, i s n 't th a t rig h t? 7 A No. I t s a id to r e a c t to th e p u b lic ity . 8 Not to crea te i t . 9 Q W ell, did you expect adverse p u b lic ity ? 10 A T h a t's alw ays p o s s ib le i f the fin d in g s 11 a r e b ad . You n ev e r know in adv an ce w hat a stu d y i s going 12 to show and you have to be p re p a re d to d e a l w ith w h atev er 13 answ er comes from i t . 14 Q Now, when d id you f i r s t have n o tic e 15 t h a t th e V ie tn a m 'v e te ra n s had f i l e d s u i t in t h e i r A gent 16 Orange d e a l? 17 A I have n o t been d i r e c t l y in v o lv e d i n 18 t h a t , so I would have to depend on th e n ew sp ap ers. 19 Q Around 1979, w a s n 't i t ? 20 A I d o n 't know. I d i d n 't fin d th a t im 21 p o r ta n t enough to commit to memory s in c e I w a s n 't d i r e c t l y 22 in v o lv e d in i t . I t was a m a tte r o f in fo rm a tio n t h a t I 23 d i d n 't see a n y need to memorize d a te s on. 24 Q O.K. I hand you w h a t's been marked 25 P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #46 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #231686), J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E which c o n s ists of 3 pages. F i r s t pagfi o f P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it #46 i s a c o v e r l e t t e r from Dan R. Bishop to M essrs. C a l l i s , H o lzap fel, M cC arville, Meyer, Park, S c o tt,1y o u rse lf and W ilkins, dated June 12, 1979, rig h t? A T h at's c o rre c t. \ Q With cc to Mr. J . T. N olan, rig h t? A C orrect. Q And th e co v er l e t t e r s a y s , ,lFor your in f o rm a tio n , th e a tta c h e d memo from Mr. N olan p la c e s th e N itro s it u a ti o n in the proper p e rs p e c tiv e and w ill be an a p p r o p r ia te rev iew document a s we p re p a re f o r th e f i r s t m eeting of our task fo rc e ," co rrect? A ,That*s c o rre c t. Q Then th e a tta c h e d document i s from Mr. Joe N olan to Mr. P ie r r e W ilk in s . Mr. W ilk in s was w hpt, s i r ? The l e t t e r is d ated June 4 , 1979. A His r o l e was P u b lic R e la tio n s o u t o f New York o f f i c e s . Q The f i r s t p a ra g ra p h say s t h a t th e r e may be c o n s id e ra b le a g i t a t i o n a g a in s t chem ical companies in th e I&nawha V a lle y , i s n ' t t h a t r i g h t ? A T h at's what i t says. Q Said the s itu a tio n th ere has a liv e ly p o te n tia l fo r n atio n al exposure, i s n 't th at co rrect? J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E C # W- 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 l 17 18 19 20 .*1 .22 23 24 25 A T h at's c o rre c t. Q S ta te s th a t th e re is a WestV irg in ia C itiz e n s A ctio n Group in th a t a re a ? A T h at's r ig h t. ' . Q And e q u a lly a g g r e s s iv e la b o r r e p r e s e n ta tio n from the Steelw orkers of America, i s n 't th a t rig h t? A T tiat's r ig h t. Q He s t a t e s t h a t th e se two have su cceeded in flag g in g the a tte n tio n o f m edia-conscious Dr. Irv in g S e lik o f f in New York? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q I n th e memo he a l s o s t a t e s t h a t th e A gent Orange f u r o r p ro v id e s j u s t th e kind o f news peg th a t the media people look f o r , i s n 't th a t c o rre c t? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q In the l a s t paragraph he s ta te s , "The A ppalachia s e ttin g , ric h in tawdry ta le s of business in s e n s itiv ity , furnishes a n a tu ra l backdrop fo r a lle g a tio n s o f c o r p o r a te in d if f e r e n c e to th e human c o n d itio n ," is n 't that rig h t, sir? A T h at's rig h t, Q And he t a l k s a b o u t, on page 2 o f Ex h ib it 46, about a Selikoff-Suskind faceo ff, is n 't th a t c o r r e c t , on th e s e two s tu d i e s ? A Yes, i t says th a t. J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 3 1 Q He c h a r a c te r i z e d S e lik o f f a s a man 2 sk ille d in the slashing a r t of talk in g in headlines, 3 right? 4 A I d o n 't know i f h e 's ta lk in g a b o u t 5 S e lik o f f o r S u sk in d . He s a y s , "one man." He d o e s n 't 6 name t h a t p e rso n . \ 7 Q W ell, p erhaps, subsequent documents 8 w ill e n lig h te n us as to which one h e 's ta lk in g ab o u t. 9 A A ll I can t e l l you is what I see. 10 I t s a y s , "one man," and th e n , " th e o th e r ." I t d o e s n 't 11 name e i t h e r . 12 Q And in th e second p arag rap h h e 's t a l k 13 in g a b o u t th e f a c t t h a t S e l i k o f f 's s tu d y may be r e le a s e d 14 f i r s t , i s n ' t t h a t c o r r e c t , s i r ? 15 A I'm n o t s u re w hich o n e 's h e 's t a l k i n g 16 a b o u t th e r e . He r e f e r s to b o th s tu d i e s lo o k in g a t d io x in , 17 and I 'm n o t s u re w hich one he means w i l l be r e l e a s e d f i r s t . 18 Q W ell, l e t ' s se e i f we can g le a n from 19 t h a t p a ra g ra p h , "D r. S u s k in d 's w i l l be r i g o r o u s l y con 20 fin e d to d io x in and th e delayed e f f e c ts ( i f any) o f 21 w orker e x p o s u re . D r. S e l i k o f f 1s w i l l a d d re s s i t s e l f to 22 d io x in , b u t w i l l be much w id er ra n g in g , exam ining any i l l 23 e f f e c t s w orkers, may have from t h e i r e x p e rie n c e a t N itr o . 24 I t i s e n t i r e l y p o s s ib le we m ight f a r e v e ry w e ll in the 25 d io x in s tu d y an d n o t so w e ll in th e o th e r one w hich w i l l J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E i fW *d 1 4 1 2 3 A 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 be r e le a s e d f i r s t . " Does th a t in d ic a te to you th a t th e r e v?as some co n cern a b o u t th e S e lik o f f stu d y b ein g released firs t? A Since they both re fe r to studying of d ioxin, no, i t d o e sn 't. Q O.K. W asn 't th a t in f a c t a concern a l l th ro u g h t h i s saga o f your Ad Hoc Committee -- A I 'm not so sure I c a ll i t a concern. I t was a m a tte r t h a t we c o n s id e re d p o s s ib le . S in ce the stu d y was done f i r s t , i t was lo g ic a l to assume t h a t i t would be p u b lish ed f i r s t . Q Truth of fa c t, n eith er of these studies have been published, have they? A N ot to my know ledge, n o , s i r . Q Hand you w h a t's been marked P la in t if f s * E x h ib it #48 (Monsanto id e n tific a tio n #8323037 and #8323038). P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it 48 i s a memo from F . C. M eyer, d a te d June 18, 1979, th e s u b je c t o f w hich was S e lik o f f N itr o S tudy 1Phone R e p o rt, an d y o u 're one o f th e p erso n s who r e c e iv e d a carb o n copy, i s n ' t t h a t correct? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q And i t co n cern ed a ' phone c a l l from F. C. Meyer, a p p a re n tly , to Dr. S e lik o ff, is n 't th a t correct? 1\ l J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 32 1 A Right. 2 Q And h e , a p p a re n tly , b rin g s up to d a te 3 Mr. Meyer -- i s th a t Dr. Meyer? 4 A Dr. Meyer. 5 Q - - on w hat th e y haveacco m p lish ed . 6 They have done the porphyrin s tu d ie s , immunological 7 stu d ie s , c lin ic a l ch e m istries, nerve conduction studies 8 an d n e rv e b e h a v io r a l d a t a , and he s t a t e s th e r e was one 9 group n o t com pleted a few days ago were e le c tr o p h o r e tic 10 or lip o p r o te in s an d t r i g l y c e r i d e s , r i g h t ? 11 A R ig h t. 12 Q On page 2 , a p p a r e n tly , S e l i k o f f t e l l s 13 him t h a t he can c a l l in f o u r weeks an d g e t some r e s u l t s , 14 r i g h t ? 15 A T h a t's r i g h t . 16 Q You a s a member o f th e AdHoc Committee 17 e v e r r e c e iv e an y r e s u l t s o f th e S e l i k o f f group shown 18 on P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it 48? 19 A I have n o t had an o p p o r tu n ity to r e 20 view any o f h is d a ta . 21 Q Hand you w h a t's beenmarkedP l a i n t i f f s ' 22 E x h ib it #49 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #8323058 through 23 #8323060, i n c l u s i v e ) . 24 This is a docum ent, ; P l a i n t i f f ' s E x h ib it 25 #49 i s a document a u th o re d by P i e r r e R. W ilk in s June 20 , J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E t 1 1979, and a p p e a rs to be to members o f th e Ad Hoc Committee i 2 and y o u 're one of th e r e c ip ie n ts o f i t , rig h t? 3 A T h at's c o rre c t. 4 Q And a tta c h e d i s a news r e le a s e d r a f t 5 in response to charges about dioxin exposure in the 6 Kanawha R iv e r, i s n ' t t h a t c o r r e c t ? 7 A T h at's r ig h t. 8 Q And in th e newsp re s s r e le a s e tho 9 company s t a t e s t h a t th d r c a p a b i l i t y o f d e te c tio n down 10 t o 10 p a r ts p er t r i l l i o n , th e y w ere a b le to f in d no 11 d io x in , is t h a t c o r r e c t? 12 A T h a t's r i g h t . 13 Q And th e y c h a r a c t e r i s e d t h a t a s th e 14 rough e q u iv a le n t o f one c r y s t a l o f common t a b le s a l t in 15 a n o ly m p ic -s iz e swimming p o o l f i l l e d w ith w a te r, r i g h t ? 16 A T h a t's r i g h t . 17 Q Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' 18 E x h ib it #132 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #3323065 th ro u g h 19 #8323070, i n c l u s i v e ) , and a s k you to ta k e a lo o k a t t h a t . 20 P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 132, which con 21 s i s t s o f 6 p a g e s , i s a memo from J a n Yung to F . C. Meyer 22 on June21, 1979, co n cern in g th e stu d y o f N itro P la n t 23 w orkers b e g in n in g th e week o f th e 1 1 th o f J u n e , 1979, r i g h t ? 24 A T h a t's c o r r e c t . 25 Q And y o u 'r e shown a s g e t t i n g a copy o f J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E th a t, correct? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q And i t s t a t e s t h i s s tu d y was done a t th e Putnam H ealth C lin ic f a c i l i t i e s , r ig h t? A That's rig h t. Q And i t l i s t s by d a ta th e number o f p eo p le who p a r t i c i p a t e d in t h a t s tu d y , i s n ' t t h a t c o r r e c t? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q And th e number i s 436, r ig h t? A T h at's what i t says h ere. T here's a lso a column t h a t shows 15 a d d i tio n s and 36 c a n c e l l a t i o n s . Q But, I take i t , the p art th a t says " p a r t i c i p a t e d '1 would be th e ones t h a t p a r tic ip a t e d ? A Says, "p a rticip a ted , 436, can cellatio n s, 36, a d d i t i o n s , 1 5 ." The f i n a l t o t a l was 436. Q Of c o u rse , i f you look above^there*s a co rrectio n th a t says 436, rig h t? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q Then pages 5 and 6 give the id e n tity of the people th a t p a rtic ip a te d in the stu d y , r ig h t, from the U niversity of C incinnati? A T h at's r ig h t. U niversity of C in cin n ati group is id e n tifie d . , Q Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #51 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8323133), a sk you J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E lk -J ) 1 2 3 . ; *4 ' ` s; 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 t to take a look a t th a t. E x h ib it 51 i s a memo from H r. W ilk in s to the Task Force members, d ated June 27, 1979, is i t not? A Yes, i t i s . Q I t deals w ith a l i s t of questions. and answ ers to h e lp you p rep are fo r th e r e le a s e o f th e S elik o ff h ealth study, rig h t? A R ight. Q There is an a tta c h m e n t we d o n 't seem to h av e. Do you r e c a l l th o se q u e s tio n s and answ ers? A Heavens no. T h a t's four years ago. Q S tates in the second paragraph d escrib ing the answ ers, "Those answers a re in somewhat a conv e rsa tio n a l tone but o ffe r ra tio n a l answers to the s o rt o f a d v e r s a r i a l q u e r ie s we can e x p e c t," r ig h t? A T h at's r ig h t. . Q - Why d id you th in k t h a t you would g e t a n e ^ t i v e or bad re p o rt from the S e lik o ff Mt. S in a i study? A I h a rd ly th in k th is shows th a t I would have ex p ected a n y th in g . I'm being to ld h ere what someone else expects. Q O.K. Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it #52 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8323145 and #8323146), s i r . P l a i n t i f f s * E x h ib it 52 Is a memo from J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G SE R VIC E l 2 < 1 F. J . Ilo lzap fel, dated July 2, 1979, w ith the su b ject 2 being N itro H ealth Study Tksk F orce, M inutes of Meeting 3 6 /2 8 /7 9 , and you*re one o f the persons to re c e iv e a copy 4 of th at, isn 't th at correct? 5 A That's c o rre c t. 6 Q O.K. Down th e r e in " Item s D iscussed" 7 under L ( c ), "Q uestion and answer a n tic ip a te d upon r e 8 le a s e o f S e lik o f f stu d y summary. W ilkins d is tr ib u te d 9 w ith re q u e s t f o r comments and a d d itio n s . D iscu ssio n a t 10 7/6 m e e tin g ," r ig h t? 11 A T h a t' s r i g h t . 12 Q Then I . (d) d e a ls w ith th e Monsanto 13 M o r t a l i t y D ata on p e rs o n n e l in v o lv e d in 1949 i n c i d e n t , 14 c o r r e c t ? 15 A C o r r e c t. 1 Q The d a ta t h a t th e y w ere g a in in g th e r e , 17 would t h a t be th e S u sk in d -Z ack s tu d y t h a t was p u b lis h e d 18 in Ja n u a ry o f 1980 in th e J o u r n a l o f O c c u p a tio n a l M edicine? 19 A I 'm n o t s u re w hich one o f th o se two 20 s tu d ie s th a t were conducted by J u d ith Zack is r e fe rre d to 21 h e r e . I don' t r e c a l l th e d a t e s , r e l a t i v e d a te s o f th e .22 tw o. In one c a se m o r t a l i t y s tu d y was done on th o se p erso n s 23 in v o lv e d in th e 1949 i n c i d e n t . In th e seco n d c a se th e 24 t o t a l p l a n t p o p u la tio n m o r t a l i t y s tu d y was done. I 'm n o t 25 s u re w hich o n e's b e in g r e f e r r e d to h e r e . J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 Q The t o t a l p la n t s tu d y , has i t te en 2 published? 3 A Yes. Q Can you t e l l me where i t was p u b lish ed ? 5 A I b e lie v e t h a t ' s th e one th a t was pub 6 lis h e d in the J.O.M. Here a g a in , i t ' s been b e tte r than 7 th re e and a h a lf years since i t ' s been published, and 8 I 'm n o t s u r e o f th e d a te s o f th o se th in g s , nor am I 9 a b s o l u t e l y c e r t a i n o f a l l th e jo u r n a ls i t may have 10 a p p e a re d in . 11 Q I t s t a t e s , "Meyer r e p o r t s t h a t t h i s d a ta 12 s h o u ld be a v a i l a b l e by 8 /1 f o r p o s s i b le use in p a r t i a l 13 re s p o n s e to p u b l i c a t i o n o f S e l i k o f f d a t a , " does i t n o t? 14 A T h a t's r i g h t . 15 Q Hand you w h a t's beenmarked P l a i n t i f f s ' 16 E x h i b i t #53 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #233691 th ro u g h 17 #233694, i n c l u s i v e ) . 18 P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 53 i s a document 19 w hich has a n a tta c h m e n t marked a s page 2, page 3 and page 20 4 from P ie r r e R. W ilk in s to members o f th e Ad Hoc Committee 21 an d i t ' s d a te d J u ly 3 , 1979," i s n ' t t h a t r i g h t , s i r ? 22 A T h a t's r ig h t. 23 Q What i s a t ta c h e d i s a d ra ft of th e 24 p re p a re d n e s s s ta te m e n t re sp o n d in g to th e r e le a s e o f th e 25 S e lik o f f h e a lth s tu d y , i s n ' t t h a t r ig h t? < t JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE * if \ - *' J ' 1 2 3 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ' y . . / 21 \ 22 23 24 25 '\ A T h at's rig h t. Q And, I take i t , h e 's a n tic ip a tin g what th is stu d y 's going to say, i s n 't he? A I c a n 't speak fo r w hat Mr. W ilkins thought. Q W ell, l e t me a s k you t h i s , "So l e t rje i. s ta te th e sc e n a rio upon which th is is based. 1, the h e a lth study w ill not only include data about variour health effects but w ill sp e c ific a lly alleg e th at them a re workplace problems a t the p la n t." Says th a t, d o e s n 't it? A I t says th a t, yes. Q " 2 , Those problem s w i l l ex ten d beyond d io x Ln and PAB e x p o s u re ," says t h a t , to o , d o e s n 't i t ? A Sa ys tha t . Q And 3 , "We sh o u ld n o t im pute th e methodology or m edical v a lid ity of tha Ht. S in a i work but point out th a t these findings are not conclusive u n til fu rth e r evaluated and subjected to peer review ," rig h t? A T h at's sta te d fo r any study, th a t's rig h t. Q T e ll the ju ry what peer review means. A I t means t h a t a group o f p e e rs , in o th e r w ords, people in th e same f i e l d o f e x p e r tis e , would review th e d ata to be sure the co n clu sio n s drawn from J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E * J .1T. 1 th a t data are co rrect p rio r to its pu b licatio n . 2 Q And in number 5 i t s a y s , nWe must be 3 e q u a lly c irc u m sp e c t in w hat we sa y o r im ply a b o u t th e 4 Suskind r e s u l t s / 1 rig h t? - 5 A That's rig h t. Q W ell, how c o u ld you w orry a b o u t th e \ 7 r e s u l t s o f e i t h e r one of th e s e s tu d ie s when you h av en ' t 8 seen them? 9 A X b eliev e th a t's the reason th a t 10 y o u ' d be c o n c ern ed . You d o n ' t know w hat th e y a r e going 11 t o shew an d you have to be p re p a re d to respond to w hat- 12 e v e r th e s e s tu d i e s show. 13 Q B efo re a s tu d y i s r e le a s e d f o r th e 14 s c i e n t i f i c community and g e n e ra l p u b lic , i t has to be 15 p e e r re v ie w e d , d o e s n 't i t ? l A No. There a r e ways i t can be pub 17 l i s h e d in n o n -p e e r rev iew j o u r n a l s . 18 Q You know w h eth er th e S e l i k o f f group 19 makes i t a h a b i t o r p r a c t i c e o f n o t b e in g p e e r rev iew ed ? 20 A I have no idea what th e ir h a b its or 21 p r a c t i c e s a r e . 22 Q W ell, in a n y e v e n t, your s ta te m e n t, 23 by way o f summary, i s t h a t you s a y you m ust be p e e r 24 rev iew ed b e fo re an y c o n c lu s io n s can be made a b o u t th e 25 p a s t o r p r e s e n t h e a l t h o r s a f e t y env iro n m en t o f M onsanto' s J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E N itro P lant, right? A T h at's r ig h t. Q And th a t th e Mt. S in a i stu d y is j u s t one o f th r e e s e p a r a te d i s t i n c t s tu d i e s b ein g made o f th e work environm ent of the N itro P la n t, i s n 't th a t rig h t? A T h at's rig h t. \ Q Then you go in to th e U n iv e rs ity of C in c in n a ti's m orbidity study, i s n 't th a t rig h t? A T h at's r ig h t. Q T hat one being done by S uskind, c o rre c t? A T h at's what i t says. Q And t h a t t h a t sh o u ld be p u b lis h e d la te r in the year, rig h t? A Y es, t h a t 's w hat i t s a y s . We have to keep in mind t h a t a l l o f th e s e a r e s ta te m e n ts on a d r a f t . Not a fin a l publication. Q - On th e t h i r d page o f P l a i n t i f f ' s Ex h i b i t 53 ab o u t halfw ay down, i t s t a t e s , " F i r s t , a r e c e n t a n a ly s is o f m o rta lity ra te s o f employees exposed to d io x in in th e 1949 in c id e n t in d ic a te s th a t th e re is no su b sta n tia l variance b e t^ e n the m o rtality rate s of the p la n t workers and the-Am erican public as a w hole," is th a t what i t says? --- A No. I t sa y s, "no s t a t i s t i c a l v a ria n c e ." Not " s u b s ta n tia l." J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 Q Other than th at? 2 A Other than th a t t h a t's c o rre c t. 3 Q And, of c o u rse , th a t would be the 4 Suskind and Zack study in the Jo u rn al of O ccupational 5 M edicine? 6 A As I s a id b e fo re , I'm n o t s u re w hich 7 one o f th o se two s tu d ie s was p u b lis h e d in th e J.O.M . 8 Q Ttiat would be the 121 people they 9 were working w ith? 10 A T h a t's w hat t h i s i n d i c a t e s to me, y e s . n Q Did you do any o f the work concerning 12 th e S uskind and Zack m o r t a l i t y t a b le stu d y ? 13 A No. 14 Q But in your jo b you wouldr e c e iv e 15 c o p ie s o f e v e ry th in g t h a t 's done? 16 A Oh, s u r e . I t ' s my jo b to be in fo rm ed , 17 even though t h a t I d i d n 't do th e w ork. 18 Q Pardon me. 19 A I t 's my Jo b to be inform ed o f i t even 20 i f I d id n ' t do th e work. 21 Q Vihat th e y a r e d o in g in E x h ib it 53 22 i s a n t i c i p a t i n g th e s tu d y com ing o u t and making a 23 s ta te m e n t f o r a p re s s r e l e a s e to c o u n te r a c t an y a d v e rs e 24 e f f e c t o f i t , i s n ' t t h a t c o r r e c t ? 25 A What th e y a r e d o in g i s d r a f t i n g a J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E ti 'l l ' < . f 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 U 15 ' 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1t s ta te m e n t which i s s u b je c t to much rev iew and c o r r e c tio n prior to its release. (Whereupon a lunch re c e s s was tak en , a f t e r which the fo llo w in g proceedings were had. ) Q (By Mr. P r a t t ) S i r , I hand you w hatl s been marked P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it 133 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i - c a tio n 233795), and ask you to look a t th a t . P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 133 is a memo from Dan R. B ishop, d ated J u ly 5 , 1979, and i t ' s N itr o Q and A S u g g e s tio n s , i t ' s to P . R. W ilk in s, and y o u 're one of the p erso n s who re c e iv e d a copy o f i t , r ig h t? A R ight. Q Now, w hat was th e purpose o f th is document, anyway? A From what i t says in the f i r s t se n - te n c e , s u g g e s t changes in some of th e answ ers to a number of q u e stio n s, A l, 2, 3 and 8. Q This o n e's fo r p ress re le a s e s or some- thing? A I t d o e s n 1t s a y . Q F ir s t q uestion d eals w ith Dr. W allace who has been th e re 26 or 27 y e a r s , and say s he has n o t seen any abnorm al r a te of th o se kinds of symptoms or problem s, is th a t co rrect? J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E i t 4: A T h a t 's what i t s a y s . Q Goss on to sa y th e r e a r e p e r io d ic p h y sical exam inations a t the in d iv id u a l's d is c re tio n and not m andatory, rig h t? A Nor canthey b e, t h a t 's r ig h t. Q Then in A2, answ er s t a t e s t h a t in 1957 V c h lo ra c n e was found to be caused by d io x in , is t h a t c o r r e c t? A T h at's what i t says. Q T h a t's from a Gernen stu d y , is i t not? A D oesn't say th a t h ere. I have no icha where he got th a t. Q Answer to number 3, s ta te s to take care of the m edical fo r the people w ith chloracne and you gave them a 4 c e n t p e r hour premiumpay, r ig h t? A Says they got i t . Q Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #124 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8323177 and # 8323178) and a s k you to take a look a t th a t. P la in t if f s ' E x h ib it #134 is a document a u th o re d by Dan R. Bishop on J u ly 6 o f 1979. The sub j e c t is N itro H ealth S tu d ie s , and i t ' s to the Committee, i s i t n o t, and y o u 're one o f th e p eo p le shown t h e r e , s i r ? A Yes. Q On th e second p ag e ,w hich we do n o t have a copy of, i t says, " I'v e a lso attached copies of J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E t an e d i t o r i a l on A gent Orange from th e J u ly 5 e d i t i o n of the New York Times and a l e t t e r p u b lis h e d in a C h a rle s ton newspaper authored by a lead in g C h a rle sto n 'a re a o rth o pedic surgeon and p ro m in en t community l e a d e r .11 Do you know w hat th o se documents sa id ? A No, I do n o t. v Q We do n o t have c o p ie s of them. Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #74 (Monsanto ic e n ti f ic a ti o n #8323203 through #3323205, in c lu s iv e ), and ask you to take a look a t th a t. P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it #74 ap p ears to be a three-page document authored by F. J . H olzapfel, dated Ju ly 9, 1979. S ubject m atter is N itro H ealth Study Task F orce, Minutes of M eeting 7 /6 /7 9 , is th a t c o rre c t, s ir ? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q And th o se p r e s e n t were M e ssrs. B ishop, H o lzap fel, Meyer, M cC arville, Nelson fo r C a llis , Park, S co tt, yourself ana W ilkins, i s n 't th a t rig h t? A T h at's rig h t. Q The f i r s t item s u b je c t is 1 ( a ) , "A n aly s i s of M o rta lity E xperience_of Those Involved in 1949 In cid en t," th a t's what i t says, rig h t? A T h at's rig h t, Q And Meyer re p o r te d t h a t ther e s u l t s were com plete, r e s u lts were n o t s t a r t l i n g , m o rta lity d ata J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G SE R VIC E t 4 b e t te r than for general population, r ig h t? A T h at's r ig h t. Q And ag re e d t h a t v?e sh o u ld is s u e a p r e s s r e le a s e based on t h i s by J u ly 15th to b e a t any p o ssib le re le a se by S e lik o ff, t h a t's what i t sa y s, rig h t? A T h at's what i t says. \ Q Why would you want to b e a t C e lik o f f 's study? A I think fo r the valuable inform ation th a t th is would provide to the p u b lic . F i r s t fellow on th e b lo c k g e ts most of th e a t t e n t i o n . S ince we had som ething good to s a y , we w anted t h a t to be d u ly n o ted and n o t overshadowed by somebody e l s e 's r e p o r t. Q L e t me a s k you t h i s , do you have f i r s t hand knowledge of the v a l id ity of th a t study? A In what reg ard would I have i t ? I'm n o t s u re how y o u 'r e a s k in g me t h a t q u e s tio n . Q What I'm g e ttin g a t , did you do any of th e work on t h a t stu d y ? A No, I did n o t. Q In o th e r Words, what y o u 'rere ly in g upon, because in la te r documents y o u 'reinvolved w ith the media w hich a r e r e ly in g on you f o r th e a u t h e n t i c i t y of the stu d y fo r o th ers in the company, is th a t rig h t? A .Yes, t h a t 's r i g h t. J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E i - r `', 11 2 3 . ? - . 4` ' 5- 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 : 22 23 24 25 Q Under I.(b) o f P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 74 i t s a y s , "M oses1 (S e lik o ff) testim o n y b efo re House Sub- com m ittee on O v e rsig h t and I n v e s t i g a t i o n s , 6 /2 6 /7 9 ," Is n 't th at correct, sir? , A T h at's c o rre c t. Q I'm n o t su re who th i s is on. " D is- \ tr ib u te d c o p ie s , in d ic a te s h e a lth su rv ey on N itr o w orkers bias been c o m p le te d ." Who a r e th e y ta lk in g a b o u t th e r e , do you have any idea? A N itro workers. Q Is th a t S elik o ff* s study? A Since i t ' s under th a t heading, I presume so. Q Goes on to say t h a t c a ta lo g s of a l l th e su sp e c te d e f f e c t s o f d io x in on human h e a lth -- allow ing read e r to in fe r th a t th ese conclusions were based on such h e a lth s tu d y . Would t h a t , a g a in , be th e testim o n y of Moses or S e lik o f f in th e House Subcommittee on O v e rsig h t and I n v e s tig a tio n s ? A I c a n 't sa y . I d o n 't know what th e testim ony was. I d id n 't hear i t . I h av en 't read i t and I d o n 't have a cop}* h e re to lo o k a t . Q Then on page 2 o f E x h ib it 74 a t th e bottom under item (m), i t sa y s,; "D iscussion of W ilk in s' preparedness statem ent of 7 /3 ," is n 't th a t correct? '\ 1 i J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E i ... ... 4 rm . -1 i *(i 1 2 3 4 /* - 5. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 . 22 23 24 25 *I A T h at's what in says. Q "E xtensive d iscu ssio n - - W ilkins w ill r e d r a f t . D ecided to sh a rp e n d i s t i n c t i o n between Mons a n t o 's own c o m p ila tio n and a n a ly s is o f p a s t m edical h i s t o r i e s and th e two c u r r e n t h e a l t h s tu d ie s o f S e lik o f f and Suskind." Are they r e f e r rin g to a com pilation of \ m edical h is to r ie s th a t Monsanto did? A P ast m edical h is to rie s is what i t r e f e r s to , and I would ex p ect th a t th a t is e x a c tly what they mean. They sa y , "co m p ilatio n and a n a ly s is of p a s t m e d ica l h i s t o r i e s . 1' Q Would Sus kind have g o tte n a copy of th a t? A He may h av e , b u t I c a n 't say t h a t from my own know ledge. Q Would S e lik o f f have g o tte n a copy? A A g ain , same an sw er. Q Then on page 3 o f t h a t e x h i b i t , " W ill is s u e a news r e le a s e as soon a s p o s s ib le on the m o r ta lity d a ta f o r those, in v o lv ed in th e 1S49 in c id e n t and such o th er d ata fo r which the a n a ly s is is com plete." A T h at's what i t says. Q That would be the Suskind and Zack study? A I'm n o t s u r e . A gain, th e re were two s t u d i e s . One, I b e lie v e , was Zack and th e second was Suskind and Zack9 and those two a re n o t t o t a l l y c le a r in ' J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 4i l ,. ' . - -.. y - - 1 \ 1 ray mind as to t h e i r time. 2 Q O.X. Hand you w h at' s been marked 3 P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it #135 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8331253 4 through #8331259 and?B331262 through #8331271, in c lu siv e ) 5 fo r you to look a t . 6 O.K. P l a i n t i f f s * E x h ib it 135 c o n s is ts \ 7 o f 17 p ag es. I t 's a document from Dan R. Bishop o f 8 J u l y 13, 1979, to the members o f th e H e a lth Study Task 9 Force, is n 'tthat correct, sir? 10 A T h a t's c o r r e c t . 11 Q And th e s u b j e c t of t h a t is N itr o 12 P o s i t i o n S tate m e n t and Backup Q and A 's , r i g h t ? 13 A R i g h t . 14 Q And, a g a in , t h i s docum ent, th e re is a 15 d r a f t of 7 /1 2 /7 9 w hich is found on pages 2 , 3 , 4 , is 16 t h a t r i g h t ? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And a d r a f t , a g a in , o f 7 /1 2 /7 9 , Q and 19 A, N itr o H e a lth S tu d ie s , t h a t 's on 5 , 6 , 7 , r i g h t ? 20 A C o rre c t. ,21 Q And page 8 of P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 135, 22 t h e r e 's a cover document by th e same person o f August 23 7 , 1979, and i t ' s a R evised N itr o P o s itio n S ta te m e n t, 24 i s n ' t t h a t r i g h t ? 25 A R ig h t. '\ l J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 Q And the f i r s t p a ra g ra p h s t a t e s , ''A tta c h e d 2 fo r your inform ation is the rev ised p o sitio n statem ent 3 we in te n d to go w ith as our f i r s t lin e o f d efen se when 4 Dr. S elik o ff issues h is re p o rt," i s n 't th a t rig h t? 5 A T hat's r ig h t. 6 Q And s a y s , " P le a s e d e s tro y the p re v io u s 7 s ta te m e n t d ated J u ly 15 and r e p la c e i t w ith th i s v e r s io n ," 8 is n 't th at correct? 9 A C orrect. 10 Q On page 15, q u e s tio n 2 and the an sw er, 11 " Q u e stio n , Kow does Monsanto j u s t i f y c o n tin u in g the 12 m an u factu re o f 2 ,4 ,5 - T u n t i l 1969 when w orkers c o n tin u e d 13 to c o n t r a c t c h lo ra c n e ," and w i l l you re a d t h a t an sw er, s i r . 14 A "D ioxin was n o t c h e m ic a lly i d e n t i f i e d 15 u n t i l 1957, an d , o f c o u rs e , i t s r e l a t i o n s h i p to c h l o r 16 acne was n o t e s t a b l i s h e d u n t i l t h a t tim e . However, 17 fo llo w in g t h e . 1949 in c i d e n t , M onsanto r e v is e d i t s 2 ,4 ,5 - T 18 p r o c e s s , i n s t i t u t e d a d d i t i o n a l s a f e t y and i n d u s t r i a l hy 19 g ie n e p r a c t i c e s and l a t e r b u i l t an e n t i r e l y new u n i t f o r 20 th e m an u factu re o f the h e r b ic id e ." 21 Q L e t we a s k you t h i s , have you e v e r 22 view ed any o f th e documents on th e amount o f TDD t h a t 23 th e new p la n t in B u ild in g 92 was shew ing?. ; 24 A No, I 'v e n o t seen th o se docum ents. 25 Q V7hat a d d i t i o n a l s a f e t y and i n d u s t r i a l J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E g :a 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .21 22 23 24 25 hygiene p r a c tic e s were p u t in from '5 5 to *61? A I c a n n o t t e l l you t h a t . I was n o t th e r e , and I have no in fo rm a tio n to t h a t e f f e c t in f r o n t o f me. Q Do you have an o p in io n a s to what the parts per m illion, parts per b illio n , parts per tr illio n , what is the to x ic ity of tetrachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin? V A You would have to be s p e c if ic as to w hich an im al s p e c ie s you1r e ta lk in g a b o u t because i t v a rie s g r e a tly from one to the o th e r. Q How a b o u t man? A I 'm n o t su re we know e x a c tly what th e to x ic le v e l f o r LD-50, i f you w i l l , in humans i s . T hat type of experim entation c e rta in ly is unacceptable, ana th e re is no way to develop t h a t k in d of knowledge. Q W ell, is i t th e company's p o s itio n , has i t been the company's p o s itio n th a t th e only th in g th a t 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 tetrach lo ro d ib en zo -p ara-d io x in has caused is chloracne? A Y es, I th in k we can say t h a t 's n o t o n ly th e com pany's p o s it io n b u t i t ' s th e o p in io n o f many m edical experts throughout the w orld, not only ours. Q Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #136 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8323234 and #8323235) and ask you to look a t th a t. P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 136 i s , a g a in , a J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E ..k memo from Dan R. Bishop on J u ly 16, 1979. The s u b je c t is N itro H ealth Study Task F orce, M inutes of Meeting of 7 /1 3 /7 9 , and w hile y o u 're n o t p re s e n t, a p p a re n tly , you were given a copy of th a t, rig h t? A Yes. Q Turning to Item la , which is e n title d " S e lik o ff Preparedness S tatenent/Q and A 's." I t s ta te s , "Revised d ra fts of th is m a te ria l were subjected to fin a l s c ru tin y and f in a l m o d ificatio n s were in c o rp o ra te d . These docum ents ( a tta c h e d ) sh o u ld now be c o n s id e re d a s a p p ro v e d ," i t s ta te s th a t, d o esn 't I t , s ir? A Yes, i t does. Q "E vergreen documents and w ill c o n s ti t u t e our f i r s t l i n e o f d efen se when th e a t t a c k o c c u rs ." What a re ev e rg ree n documents? A These a re documents th a t would rem ain in e x iste n c e and be updated as they improve our knowledge. As we f in d new t r u t h s to be p la c e d i n to them , th e y would be placed in th e pro p er p la c e . Q Thai under ib , " N itro M o rta lity S tudy." S ta te s , "D rs. Roush and Meyer w ill meet w ith Dr. Suskind in C i n c in n a ti on J u ly 16 an d a tte m p t to g e t h i s a p p ro v a l to r e le a s e th is d ata e a rly as a news r e le a s e ," is th a t what i t says? A T h at's what i t says. J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E ik 1 Q "PR s tr o n g ly recommends a g a in s t a 2 j o i n t (Suskind/M onsanto) news r e l e a s e ." T h a t' s a ls o 3 stated , right? ... 4 A That's also sta te d . .; 5 Q "We f e e l i t co u ld compromise h is 6 c r e d ib ility and h is independence -- extrem ely im portant I 7 asp ects of our o v e ra ll stra te g y ." T h at's a lso sta te d , 8 is n 't it? 9 A C orrect. 10 Q " I f a l l goes w e ll, we would is s u e th e 11 news r e l e a s e no l a t e r th an Wednesday, J u ly 1C," r ig h t? 12 A R ig h t. 13 Q I s I t M onsanto18 p o s itio n t h a t Suskind 14 is in d e p en d en t from Monsanto in th e s e s tu d ie s ? 15 A In d eed i t i s , andt h a t ' s a l s o Dr. S u s- 16 k in d 's r e p e a te d ly s t a t e d p o s i t i o n , 17 Q W ell, I ask ed t h a t f o r th e re a so n I 18 seem to in th e documents come a c ro s s re p e a te d in s ta n c e s 19 o f w here M onsanto o f f i c i a l s a r e a d v is in g and ta lk in g to 20 D r. S uskind. Even w ith t h a t you say h e 's in d ep en d en t, 21 i s t h a t r i g h t ? 22 A I 'm n o t aw are t h a t th eo f f i c i a l s have 23 e v e r a d v is e d D r. S u sk in d . They have c o n s u lte d w ith him, 24 ask ed h i s g u id an ce and a d v ic e a s c o n s u lta n t In dependent 25 o f an y company t i e s . His s tu d y was perform ed o u t o f a J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E lf f *9 < 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 IB 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1\ sp e c ia l in s titu te a t the U niversity of C incinnati as a research group. Q H e's long been a f f i l i a t e d w ith Monsanto in these s tu d ie s , though, has he n o t, since 1949, rig h t? A f He h as been a c o n s u lta n t to Monsanto since th a t tim e. \ Q Do you know w h eth er o r n o t he t e s t i f i e d f o r Monsanto in th e 1956, 1957 workmen's com pensation h earin g s ,in C h a rle sto n , West V irg in ia ? A I 'm n o t r e a lly ' sure w hether he d id or n o t. I have no d i r e c t knowledge o f t h a t . He may have. I t w o u ld n 't be s u rp ris in g to le a rn th a t he d id . Q O.K. Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #77 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8323245 through #8323248, i n c l u s i v e ) , a s k you to ta k e a look, a t th at, s ir. O.K. T his i s a memo from Dan P,,. Bishop to th e N itr o H e a lth S tudy Task F orce on J u ly 20 o f 1979, the M inutes of M eeting of 7 /2 0 /7 9 , is i t not? A Yes. Q And y o u 'r e one o f th e gentlem en t h a t were addressed, rig h t? A Yes. Q Turning to page 2 o f th a t document under d , "M cC arville re p o rte d th a t S e lik o ff w ill do a J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E A - , 54 1 h e a l t h s tu d y funded by NEISS in c o o p e ra tio n w ith NIOSH 2 and Arkansas Department of H ealth a t the Vercac P lan t in 3 J a c k s o n v ille , A rk a n sa s ,11 i s n ' t t h a t r i g h t ? 4 A Plight. 5 Q And t h a t 's a form er H ercu les P la n t 6 w here th e y made A gent Orange d u rin g th e w ar, r ig h t? v 7 A T h at's what i t says here. 8 Q And over on page 3 o f t h a t document 9 i t sta te s, " I t's generally f e lt th at S elikoff is getting 10 in v o lv ed a t V ertac to e i t h e r c o lla b o r a te h is N itro f in d 11 in g s o r to f in d problem s he was u n ab le to uncover a t 12 N i t r o , and in e i t h e r c a s e , be i s ex p ected to r e p o r t th e 13 two to g e th e r in such a way t h a t i t w i l l be d i f f i c u l t to 14 s o r t o u t one from th e o t h e r ," is t h a t c o r r e c t? 15 A T h a t's w hat I t s a y s . 16 Q Then a l s o on page 3 u n d er e , w hich is 17 e n t i t l e d " N itr o P la n t M o r ta l ity S tu d y ," we have a m eeting 18 betw een M eyer, D r. Roush and S uskind in C in c in n a ti on 19 J u l y 17 to rev iew a d r a f t o f th e M o r ta lity R e p o rt, i s n ' t 20 t h a t c o r r e c t? 21 A T h a t's c o r r e c t . 22 Q I th o u g h t J u d ith Zack was th e a u th o r > 23 o f t h a t . 24 A T h a t!6 c o r r e c t . 25 Q W e ll, w hat would your M edical D epartm ent J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E i V .. 51 & <t 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 *1 be doing review ing a d r a f t of th a t re p o rt w ith Suskind? A The ep id em io lo g y group i s p a r t o f t h a t M edical D epartm ent. Dr. Roush as D ire c to r o f i t would have Epidem iology re p o rtin g to him. Q You d o n 't f in d i t s tr a n g e t h a t the c o -a u th o r, Mrs. Zack, was n o t p re s e n t a t t h a t m eeting? A Not a t a l l sin ce she re p o rte d to Dr. Meyer. Q O.K. Then over on page 4 o f P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it #77 I note th a t in the C harleston N itro area th a t Monsanto has h ir e d an o u ts id e FR firm c a lle d Ryan and A ssociates, is n 't th a t right? A C orrect. , Q Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 78 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #236205 th ro u g h #236208, in c lu s iv e ) , and a sk you to take a look a t i t , s i r . P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #78 is a four-page document a u th o re d by Dan R. Bishop on J u ly 27, 1979, th e su b je c t being N itro H ealth Study Task F orce, M inutes of M eeting 7 /2 7 /7 9 , and i t d o e s n 't show th a t you were th e re . A T h at's c o rre c t. Q Did you e v e r see t h i s document? A A pparently n o t. I have not i f X had not been included in the d is trib u tio n . Q Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E i .' 5< 1 E x h ib it #80 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #236212 through 2 #236215, in c lu s iv e ), which c o n s ists of four pages, ask 3 you to take a look a t th a t, s i r . - 4 O.K. Tills docum ent, P l a i n t i f f s ' Ex 5 h ib it 80, is authored by F. J . K olzapfsl, dated August 6 6 o f 1979. The s u b je c t is N itr o H e a lth S tudy Task Force i 7 M inutes of M eeting of 8 /3 /7 9 , and you a re a r e c ip ie n t 8 of tlia t document, rig h t? 9 A R ight. 10 Q O.K. I f you would tu rn to page 2 n under paragraph 2, "Suskind Study - A llo catio n of C osts." 12 I s i t your u n d e rsta n d in g t h a t Monsanto p aid fo r th i s study? 13 A M onsanto p aid a p o r tio n o f the c o s t . 14 Q Who e ls e p a id f o r i t ? 15 A The N a tio n a l I n s t i t u t e o f E n v iro n m en ts1 1 H e a lth S c ie n c e s and th e U n iv e r s ity o f C i n c i n n a t i 's -- 17 I 'v e fo rg o tte n - th e p r e c is e name o f t h i s group -- b u t i t 18 was sh a re d in p a r t by th e o th e r two o r g a n iz a tio n s a s w e l l ; 19 Q Do th e y know th e t o t a l c o s t o f t h i s stu d y ? 20 A I'm sure someone does. 21 Q W ell, i t ' s s t i l l going on. T h a t's why 22 I'm w ondering i f th e re is a t o t a l b i l l on th a t . 23 A I have no id e a w hat th e c o s t would b e. 24 I d o n 't g e t in v o lv ed in f i n a n c i a l a s p e c ts o f th in g s l ik e 25 t h i s . J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E i Q Who would be in v o lv ed ? A I c a n 't give you a name. I can t e l l you i t would p ro b a b ly be i d e n t i f i a b l e th ro u g h the A ccounting people or f in a n c ia l people in th e company. Q Under 3 i t sa y s, "Suskind Study Followup to Employees," rig h t? A Oh, y e s. Q And th e f i r s t and secondparag rap h? d eal w ith Suskind*s o ffic e have advised the N itro P lan t nurse th a t they were c o n ta c tin g the physicians of a l l people ana th e n u rse was g e t t i n g i n q u ir ie s from those examined concerning the r e s u lt s , rig h t? A R ight. Q Secondp arag rap h under 3 sa y s,"The group recommends t h a t feed b a ck be p r o v id e d .to a l l em p lo y e e s as soon as p o s s i b l e ," th e group b e in g th e Ad Hoc Committee, I take i t , rig h t? A The group a s s t a t e d h e re is th e Ad Hoc Com mittee, I e x p e c t, and th e people to be inform ed were the people to be examined. Q Says, "Dr. Gaffey w ill discuss th is w ith D r. Roush to d eterm in e who in DMEH w i l l c o n ta c t D r.S u sk in d , rig h t? A R ight. Q And th e r e wasth r e e a l t e r n a t i v e s t h a t J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E li 1 were discussed; A l e t t e r from Suskind* s o ffice to each 2 employee, a l e t t e r from the P la n t Manager and group 3 meetings a t Nitro^ rig h t? 4 A R ight. 5 Q Do you know v?hich th e y d id or i f th e y 6 did anything? 7 A Yes. Dr. Suskind s e n t each employee 8 a copy o f a re p o rt of h is fin d in g s of each em ployee's 9 exam ination. 10 Q Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s 1 11 E x h ib it #138 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #8323313 th ro u g h 12 #8323315, in c lu s iv e ) and a s k you to ta k e a look a t t h a t . 13 P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #138, th e a u th o r 14 a p p e a rs to be Mr. H o lz a p fe l, d ated A ugust 20, 1979. 15 I t ' s a N i t r o H e a lth 'S tu d y Task F o rc e , M inutes o f M eeting l o f 8 /1 7 , to th e Committee. I c a l l your a t t e n t i o n to 17 page 1, " M o r t a l i t y S tu d y ." There i t s t a t e s , "D r. Suskind 18 has su g g e ste d some changes in th e d r a f t of M onsanto's 19 'M o r t a l i t y Study* w hich we would l i k e t o subm it f o r pub 20 l i c a t i o n in a r e p u ta b le j o u r n a l , " i s n ' t t h a t c o r r e c t , s i r ? 21 A T h a t 's c o r r e c t . 22 Q "D r. G effey (and p o s s i b ly o th e r DMEH 23 p e rs o n n e l) w i l l v i s i t Suskind week 8/20 in an e f f o r t to 24 r e s o lv e d if f e r e n c e s and a v o id f u r t h e r d e la y in p u b lic a 25 t i o n . " T h a t's a l s o s t a t e d , Is t h a t r i g h t ? *i JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E i .f , 1 A T h at's rig h t. 2 i Q And un d er 3 o f page 1, g e t back to 3 Dr. S e lik o ff, " S e lik o ff Study a t V ertac," th a t's the 4 heading, rig h t? 5 A T h at's rig h t. 6 Q S ta te s , "D r. Meyerc a lle d S e lik o ff \ 7 who r e p o r te d t h a t some 200 p eo p le w ere in v o lv e d in th e 8 V ertac stu d y , t h a t th e c a se s seemed more a c t i v e th an 9 th o se a t N itr o and t h a t he was s t i l l a n a ly z in g the N itro 10 d a t a ," i s n ' t t h a t c o r r e c t , s i r ? 11 A T h a t's c o r r e c t . 12 Q On page 2 o f E x h ib it 138a t th e to p 13 u n d er 4 , i t Bays, "F eedback to Employees from S uskind 14 E x a m in a tio n ," i s n ' t t h a t r i g h t , s i r ? 15 A T h a t's r i g h t . 16 Q I t s t a t e s , "As p a r t o f v i s i t to S u sk in d 17 week 8 /2 0 , Dr.- Meyer w i l l p re s s f o r feed b a ck to em ployees 18 whose ex a m in a tio n s have n o t r e v e a le d a n y th in g s e r io u s 19 enough to w a rra n t fe e d b a c k t o t h e i r p h y s ic ia n s (see 20 a t ta c h e d memo o f 8 /8 from 0 . D o lin f o r s t a t u s r e p o r t on 21 h e a l t h s tu d y .) " What would t h a t have been a b o u t, s i r ? 22 A Are you ta lk in g a b o u t th ea tta c h e d 23 memo o r p a r t o f th e Suskind v i s i t ? I 'm n o t s u re w hat 24 y o u 'r e a s k in g me a b o u t. 25 Q About th e S uskind v i s i t . *I t J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E - -r ' ( A O bviously w hat th e y a r e tr y in g to do i s g e t D r. S uskind to r e p o r t back to in d iv id u a ls who have n o t had previous communication about the r e s u lts of th e ir exam ination. Q Goes on to s a y , " K o lz a p fe l w i l l d e t e r mine w hether D r.W allace (N itro P la n t d o cto r) has been c o n ta c te d by an y o f th e p h y s ic ia n s who have been con ta c te d by e ith e r Suskind or S e lik o ff," rig h t? A R ight. Q Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s E x h ib it #83 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #83233IS through #8323320, in c lu s iv e ) , ask you to look a t t h a t , s ir ? P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it #83 p u rp o rts to be a memo from F . J . H o lz a p fe l, d a te d A ugust 24, 1979, the su b je c t being N itro H ealth Study Task Force, Minutes of M eeting of 8/24/79, lis tin g a l l those p re se n t, and I'm ask in g you i f t h a t 's n o t a document th a t you have seen, sir? A Yes. Q Turning to page 2 of th a tdocument, th e to p p a ra g ra p h on page 2 e n t i t l e d "M onsanto M o r ta lity S tu d y ." A R ight. Q F ir s t paragraph re la te s th a t the d ra ft has not been accepted by Suskind y et but he promises he J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E w ill review i t next week, rig h t? A R ight. Q And t h a t D r. Meyer w i l l fo llo w up on th a t, right? A Plight. Q Paragraph 3 s ta te s th a t the Carbide -- C arbide is a chem ical company out th e re lo c a lly , rig h t? A C arbide is a chem ical company which has sev eral plants in the C liarleston area. Q Carbide U niversity of P ittsb u rg h s tu d y in v o lv e d 819 d eceased em ployees who had been em ployed a t i t s South C harleston P la n t, th a t's what i t sta te s in th a t f i r s t sentence, rig h t? A R ight. Q Goes on to sa y t h a t , " C a r b id e 's stu d y showed h ig h e r than norm al in cid en ce o f th re e types of c a n c e r and le d to th e l a r g e r 40,000 man ep id em io lo g y stu d y announced l a s t w eek." That was a ls o s ta te d , r ig h t? A R ight. Q Then in th e f i n a l paragraph o f s e c tio n 2 , "We m ust be p re p a re d to d i f f e r e n t i a t e betw een th e two kinds o f s tu d ie s , i f our f u tu re news r e le a s e Is to have c r e d ib ility ," does i t not? A Yes. Q Goes on to s t a t e , "D r. G affeyex p lain e d J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 th a t a stu d y which included only deceased employees 2 would be ex p e cte d to show more ca n ce r th an a stu d y o f 3 an e n tire group (liv in g and dead) th a t had been exposed j to an 'i n c i d e n t 1 su ch a s ours in 1949," r i g h t ? 5 A R ight. 6 Q So what h e !s say in g is th a t the C arbide 7 study, because they studied deceased persons alone, 8 would n o t have v a l id ity , r ig h t? 9 A No, t h a t 's n o t r i g h t . 10 Q W ell, h e 's s a y in g t h a t i t would have a 11 h ig h e r in c id e n c e o f c a n c e r? 12 A T h a t's r i g h t . T hat d o e s n 't say i t ' s 13 n o t a v a l i d s tu d y . 14 Q Under s e c t i o n 3 , back, to th e S uskind 15 s tu d y , t h a t 's th e m o rb id ity s tu d y , is i t n o t, s i r ? 16 A I e x p e c t t h a t 's w h a t's been r e f e r r e d to . 17 Q - D r. Suskind a d v is e d D r. Meyer t h a t 18 h e ' l l send a r e p o r t to each p a t i e n t exam ined, to th e 19 man' s p e rs o n a l p h y s ic ia n and send a l e t t e r to each man 20 examined a d v isin g th a t the f i l e 's been se n t to h is 21 p h y s ic ia n , t h a t 's w hat i s s t a t e d t h e r e , r i g h t ? 22 A R ight. ; 23 Q Then i t goes cm t o s t a t e , "We u n d e rsta n d 24 t h a t th e Monsanto m ed ical community w i l l re c e iv e a copy 25 o f th e t e s t r e s u l t s f o r t h a t i n d i v i d u a l 's m e d ica l f i l e . " J A M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SERVICE l iS M ' Tt ; 'I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 : 21 22 23 24 25 Are they r e f e r rin g to the lo c a l N itro P la n t g e ttin g a copy? ,\ A I would ex p ect t h a t 's w h at's meant by th is . Q Then i t goes on to s t a t e , In e s s e n c e , th a t Dr. Meyer w i l l tr y to re s o lv e any problem w ith th is man, is th a t r ig h t? A Yes. I b eliev e th a t re la te s to the c o n fu sio n a s to when th a t l e t t e r would be s e n t. Q Hand you w n a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #84 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n 8331273 and #8331274), ask. you to look a t th a t , s i r . P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 84, s i r , is a memo from F. G. M eyer, d a te d A ugust 27, 1979, and th e s u b je c t is 'Phone D iscu ssio n w ith Dr. Ray Suskind, r e ; N itro H ealth S tu d ies, is i t not? A Yes. Q . And y o u 're were one o f th e r e c i p i e n t s of th a t document, is th a t c o rre c t? A C orrect. Q On p a ra g ra p h 1 on page 1 o f P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 84 i t s a y s , "H e," arid I suppose th e y mean Susk in d , "has th e *1945 accid e n t* m o r ta lity re v is e d p u b lic a tio n s la te d fo r jo u rn a l of O ccupational M edicine and ag re e s i t should go o u t th is w eek." T h a t's w h a t's s ta te d here, right? J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E [ ... , i 6< A R ight. Q S ta te s a l s o , "He i s re v ie w in g i t today and w ill c a ll la te r in the day to discus9. I volunteered J . Zack and W illiam G affey, i f n e c e s s a ry ,;to v i s i t C in c in n a ti fo r re s o lu tio n of any problems which cannot be handled by 'phone," is n ' t th a t rig h t? A T hat's rig h t. Q And un d er p a ra g ra p h 2 , d e a ls w ith th e N itr o H ea lth Study c a r r i e d o u t June 11 th ro u g h 18 con cern in g communications of in d iv id u a ls 1 r e s u lts th a t have been c a r r ie d out o r a re in p ro c e s s. That would be the m orbidity study, rig h t? A Yes. Q I t s ta te s under a , " F a irly soon a f t e r th e exams, f o r s e v e r a l p a tie n ts found to have symptoms needing immedipte follow up (not n e c e s s a rily r e la te d to work exposure)-, ' phone c o n ta c ts w ere made w ith th e p a tie n t's physicians," rig h t? A Yes. Q And un d er 2 b , t h a t d e a ls w ith th e p a t i e n t s who sig n e d a c o n s e n t form , t h a t th e r e p o r ts would go to th e ir do cto rs w ith a l e t t e r o f co n firm atio n to the p a tie n ts , rig h t? -X/.: A T h at's r ig h t. Q And un d er c , a l e t t e r sa y in g t h a t th e J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l r e s u lts were com plete and a consent form going back so th a t they can send the re p o rts to th e ir physicians, isn 't th at correct? A C orrect. . Q And t h a t sample c o p ie s o f th o se l e t t e r s would be se n t to Dr. F. C. Meyer in S t. L ouis, rig h t? A R ight. Q On page 2 of t h a t docum ent, s i r , p a ra graph 3, a p p a re n tly , Suskind re la te d the f a c t th a t he had attended an e a rly August interagency meeting in W ashington on 2 ,4 ,5 - T and 2,4-D h e ld by KIOSK, OSHA, NlEHS'or re p o rte d o r a lly on th e p ro g ress of the N itro study, is n 't th at rig h t? A T h at's rig h t. Q Then i t a ls o makes re fe re n c e in p a ra graph 3, S e lik o ff being th e re and he only mentioned N itro p riv a te ly and talked about V ertac exam inations and as an example of a , qu o te, c le a n , I th in k i t i s , 2,4rD exposure and fu rth e r mentioned h is p relim inary exam ination of workers handling pentachlorophenol in a W eyerhauser wood t r e a t i n g p la n t in A rk a n sa s, t h a t ' s a l l in there? A E x ce p t i t say s 2 ,4 ,5 - T on my copy. Q M ine's c u t o f f . I t 's 2 ,4 ,5 -T , fin e . P a ra g ra p h 4 s a y s , ''S uskind was inform ed J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l r* * > 1 t h a t B i l l G affeyj would ^cuo.niutaaccct ntwi m t_o dj a y co n c ern in g 2 d a ta on ?AB exposed em p lo y ees." T h a t's w h a t's s ta te d 3 there, right? 4 A R ight. .5 Q His s tu d y , as 1 u n d e rsta n d i t , was on 6 d io x in . Was he stu d y in g PAB on th e se em ployees, a ls o ? 7 A No, he was n o t stu d y in g i t b u t he had 8 to co n sid er i t as a fa c to r which would help to ex p lain 9 the fin d in g of ex c essiv e number of b lad d er cancers in 10 t h a t stu d y group. T h a t's to make su re you d o n 't r e l a t e 11 i t to th e wrong ex p o su re . 12 (Whereupon a s h o r t r e c e s s was ta k e n , 13 a f t e r w hich th e fo llo w in g p ro cee d in g s were h a d .) 14 Q (By Mr. P r a t t ) Hand you w h a t's been 15 marked P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #55 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n 16 #8323334.,#8323335 and #8323336), a s k you to look a t t h a t . 17 P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #56, s i r , p u rp o rts 18 to be a memo from F . J . H o lz a p fe l, d a te d Septem ber 4 , 19 1979, w ith th e s u b je c t m a tte r b ein g N itr o H e a lth Study 20 Task F o rc e , M inutes o f M eeting o f 8 /3 1 /7 9 , and th a t you 21 w ere p r e s e n t , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? 22 A T h a t's c o r r e c t . 23 Q And th e le a d in p a ra g ra p h s t a t e s , "Re 24 s ta te m e n t o f Task F o rce O b je c tiv e s - 'T o e n su re t h a t 25 N itr o d o e s n 't become M on san to 's Love C a n a l.1" S ta te s J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E L 1 th a t, d o e sn 't i t , sir? 2 A Yes, i t does. 3 Q Do you e n su re t h a t you d o n 't have a 4 Love C anal w ith p u b l i c i t j 7, s i r ? 5 A I d o n 't see anything th a t re fe rs to 6 p u b l i c i t y in t h a t . B ut, y e s , you do because v?hat you 7 do is give the public fa c tu a l in fo rra tio n in stead of 8 em otional issues to deal w ith. 9 Q Is i t your sta te m e n t th a t Love Canal 10 was an em o tio n a l is s u e r a t h e r th an a f a c t u a l one? 11 A I do indeed b e lie v e t h a t was 9S!o o f th e 12 problem a t Love C anal a s opposed to f a c t u a l is s u e showing 13 any tr u e problem s th e r e . 14 Q Turn to page 3 o f P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 15 ir56, s i r . Under 7 , ''M o r t a li ty S tu d y ," s t a t e s , does i t 16 n o t, "Meyer r e p o r ts S uskinc s t i l l p r o c r a s t i n a t i n g on 17 r e l e a s e o f s tu d y f o r p u b l i c a t i o n . Meyer to t r y to r e 18 s o lv e rem ain in g is s u e s ( e g o - r e la te d ) t h i s w eek." Is 19 t h a t w hat i t sa y s? 20 A T h a t's what i t say s. 21 Q In p a ra g ra p h 6 i t s a y s , "R ecent C h lo r22 acn e C ases. Judy Zack has review ed re c o rd s and i d e n t i 23 f i e d a b o u t 300 em ployees h i r e d s in c e J a n u a ry , '7 3 ," r i g h t ? 24 A R ig h t. 25 Q And you w ere to rev iew th e m edical J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E i 1t 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 , 25 records to id e n tify chloracne cases in th is group. Did you do th a t? A I 'd have to go back i n to my re c o rd s and be su re . Q What would be th e purpose o f t h a t w ork, sir? A I t ' s v e ry s im p le . To d eterm in e w hether o r n o t we a r e s t i l l s e e in g c h lo ra c n e in people who had no known or i d e n t i f i a b l e ex p o su re to th e 2 ,4 ,5 - T o p eratio n or any of the m a te ria ls, equipment involved in th a t operation. Q Did you f in d any o u t o f th o se 300 people to have chloracne? A I d o n 't r e c a ll what the findings of my stu d y w ere. I 'm n o t su re when t h a t was com pleted or w hat I w rote on t h a t , I 'd have to go back in my f i l e s to s e e .e x a c t l y w hat I s a i d . To th e b e s t o f my know ledge, we d id n o t se e c h lo ra c n e in t h i s group o f pe op l e , Q Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #57 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8323340 through #8323342, in c lu s iv e ), which is a th ree-p ag e document au th o red by F. J . H olzap fel, dated September 10, 1979, and th e Bubjec.t is N itro H ealth Study Task F orce, M inutes o f M eeting Septem ber 7 , 1979, and y o u 'r e shown JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1f 1 '1 2 3 4 ;5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 V . 22 23 24 25 11 on th e l i s t o f r e c i p i e n t s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t , s i r ? A That's co rrect. Q And under p a ra g ra p h 1, " M o r ta lity S tu d y ," i t s t a t e s , "S u sk in d s t i l l i n s i s t i n g on in e lu sio n of referen ces to h is p ast speeches and is pursuing w ith e d ito r of jo u rn al. Expect to reach g o c is io n next week," is n 't th a t rig h t? A That's rig h t. Q And goes on to s a y , "A cceptance f o r p u b lic a tio n a t l e a s t s ix wc-eks away, th u s , p re c lu d in g an y news r e le a s e on our p a r t u n t i l th e n ," r ig h t? A R ight. Q T hat m ight have been why Mr. K o lz a p fe l re fe rre d tc eg o -re la te d problem in E x h ib it 55, rig h t? A T h at's p o ssib le. Q Hand you w h a t' s been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 58 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n :'-S323370 th ro u g h 8323372, in c lu s iv e ) , ask you to look a t th a t, s i r . P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 58 c o n s is ts of th ree.p ag es au th o red , a p p a re n tly , by F. J . H olzapfel, dated October 1, 1S79, su b je c t of which is N itro H ealth Study Task F orce, Minutes of M eeting o f 9/28, and you're a recip ien t, is th at correct? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q On page 1 o f t h a t docum ent, p arag rap h J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l f /7 >0 * ' . 1 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 '\ 2 , i t s ta te s , "M o rtality Study. Suskind has completed h is quib b lin g and the document has been receiv ed by th e J o u n ra l o f O ccupational M edicine. Meyer w ill keep in touch," is th a t c o rre c t, s ir? A T h at's r ig h t. Q On page 2 o f t h a t document under 3 , "Feedback to Employees," i t s t a t e s , " L e tte rs from S c o tt and Suskind to employees fa v o ra b ly re c e iv e d . Union o f f ic ia ls chagrined a t lack of communication from S e lik o ff," does i t not? A Yes, i t does. Q On number 7 o f t h a t same page o f P la in t i f f s 1 E x h ib it 58 s t a t e s , " S e l i k o f f Sem inar , New York, 10/15 through 17." I t s ta te s underneath th a t, "B ille d as a discussion of recen t advances in occupational m edicine. D r. Moses is ex p ected to ta l k . D iscu ssio n on Agent Orange and d io x in s seems in e v ita b le ." T h a t's what th a t s ta te s , rig h t, s ir? A Yes. Q Then i t s a y s , "T illm an and W ilkins p la n n in g to a t te n d . P o s itio n paper and Q and A 's seem adequate fo r responses," does i t n o t, sir7 . A Yes. Q And d id you a tte n d ? A Yes, I d id . J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E t T i `l 1 Q And was A gent Orange and d io x in ta lk e d 2 about? 3 A I 'd have to r e f e r back to the program 4 to be su re of a l l the su b je c ts covered, I do r e c a ll 5 some d is c u s s io n o f d io x in . 6 Q And d id Dr. Moses t a l k a s ex p ected ? 7 A Yes, she d id . 8 Q She make an y r e f e r e n c e to th e N itr o 9 study? 10 A N itr o was n o t named. 11 Q Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' 12 E x h ib it #59 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #231814 th ro u g h 13 # 2 3 1 8 1 7 ,i n c l u s i v e ) , a s k you to ta k e a lo o k a t t h a t , s i r . 14 A l l r i g h t . P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #59 15 c o n s i s t s o f fo u r p a g e s. The c o v e r l e t t e r i s a memo 16 from Dan R. B ishop to members o f th e N itr o H e a lth 17 S tu d y Task F o rc e , d a te d O ctober 8 , and y o u 'r e a r e 18 c i p i e n t o f t h a t , a r e you n o t , s i r ? 19 A C o r r e c t. 20 Q And i t s t a t e s , "A tta c h e d i s a d r a f t o f 21 th e N itr o m o r t a l i t y news r e l e a s e p re p a re d by P ie r r e 22 W ilk in s . P le a se lo o k i t o v er and l e t me have any 23 comments to d a y i f p o s s i b l e ." Then t h e r e a r e th r e e 24 p a g e s , a r e th e r e n o t? 25 A T h a t's c o r r e c t . i J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E Q And on page 3 o f th e docum ent, page 2 of the press re le a s e , i t s ta te s in the second f u ll paragraph, "According to the a u th o rs, w hile the size o f th e w orker group was sm a ll and th e r e s u l t s can n o t be c o n s id e re d c o n c lu s iv e , th e y n o te d t h a t 1i t is im p o rta n t th a t no ap p a re n t excess o f to ta l m o rta lity or in deaths from m alignant neoplasms or d iseases of th e c i r c u l a t o r y system was observed in a group o f w orkers w ith a h ig h peak ex p o su re to XCDD fo llo w ed over a p e rio d o f n e a r ly 30 y e a r s , 1M i s t h a t c o r r e c t? A Yes, i t does. Q Is there anything of significance other than what I ju s t read in th a t study? Anything e lse of s ig n ific a n c e ? A Other than the m o rtality ? Q Other than the fa c t th a t according to t h i s s tu d y th e re was le s s d e a th s from ca n ce r and from c irc u la to ry d iseases than the n a tio n a l average. A W ell, I th in k the co n clu sio n th a t one would draw from th a t Is th a t th is exposure d id n o t produce any adverse e f f e c t which would cause an excess number of deaths or deaths due to cancer, Q Or c i r c u l a t o r y d is e a s e ? A Or c i r c u l a t o r y d is e a s e s . Q Did you have an y th in g to do w ith J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E li 11 2 3 -4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 . 21 r v22 23 24 25 se le c tin g the su b jects of th is study? A No. Q soever, rig h t? You had no knowledge a b o u t t h a t w hat s-v - A Not fro u a p a rtic ip a tin g p o in t of view. I have kncv/ledge of the stu d y because I did read i t a f t e r i t was p u b lis h e d . Q And in a group su ch a s t h i s , t h i s i s the only d e fin itiv e study th a t's in ex isten ce a t the present tim e, rig h t? A W ell,I understand th a t there is sons s tu d i e s going on w ith th e exposed group a t Seveso in I t a l y , an e v e n t t h a t o c c u rre d some sev en y e a rs ag o , and to d ate they have n o t re p o rte d any ex cessiv e mor ta lity or excessive cancer e ith e r. Q What a r e th e names of those s tu d ie s , who a r e th e a u th o rs ? A I d o n 't know. The a u th o r s a r e o u t of Seveso, and I d o n 't r e c a ll a l l of th e ir names, nor do I r e c a l l th e t i t l e s o f t h e i r p a p e r. I know Dr. R egianni o u t of S w itzerlan d was involved as a d ir e c to r o f some o f t h i s . Q He was a M ed ical D ir e c to r o f t h a t c lin ic th a t blew up, w a sn 't he? A I'm n o t su re i f he was M edical D ire c to r J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E l i 1 of th a t p la n t or Corporate M edical D irecto r o f Harlan 2 LaRouche t h a t cwned th is p la n t as one o f i t s s u b s id ia r ie s . 3 Q But oth er than the Seveso s itu a tio n , 4 you know o f no o th e r d e f i n i t i v e stu d y such a s t h i s one? 5 A None t h a t we have been in v o lv e d in . 6 There a r e many s tu d ie s going on in r e f e r e n c e to t h i s 7 m a te ria l, however, 8 Q P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #60 (Monsanto 9 id e n tif ic a tio n #236245 and #236246), s i r , c o n s is ts of 10 o f two p ag e s, th e a u th o r o f w hich a p p e a rs to be F, J . 11 H o lz a p fe l, d a te d O ctober 15, 1979, and th e s u b je c t is 12 th e N itr o H e a lth S tudy Task F o rc e , M inutes o f M eeting 13 o f 1 0 /1 2 /7 9 , and i t a p p e a rs t h a t y o u 're on the l i s t 14 o f th o se who r e c e iv e d t h i s docum ent, i s t h a t c o r r e c t? 15 A T h a t's c o r r e c t , 16 Q On page 1, number 1, i t s t a t e s , "Mor 17 t a l i t y Study.. F i n a l r e v is i o n s made in re sp o n se to IB comments o f e d i t o r o f J o u r n a l o f O c c u p a tio n a l M edicine. 19 Hope f o r n o t i c e o f a c c e p ta n c e f o r p u b lic a t io n by O cto 20 b e r 30, th u s making p o s s ib le o u r news r e l e a s e , " i s t h a t 21 c o r r e c t ? 22 A T h a t's c o r r e c t. 23 Q Then on number 3 , th e same p ag e, i t 24 s a y s , "S u sk in d S tu d y . R e s u lts a v a i l a b l e December e a r 25 l i e s t . D ata now re a d y f o r com puter in p u t and a n a l y s i s , " J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l is th at correct? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q So w hat h e 's s a y in g Is t h a t he th in k s he w ill have i t done by December of 1S79, i s n 't th a t correct? A H e's saying t h a t 's the e a r l ie s t he could have i t done. Q And th e d a te i s th r e e and a h a l f y ea rs a f te r th a t, and i t 's s t i l l not done, is it? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s E x h ib it #61 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #3321780), con s is tin g o f one page, and a sk you to look a t th a t. This i s a document a u th o re d by Dan R. B ishop, d a te d O ctober 19, 1979. The s u b je c t i s M o r ta lity News R e le a s e , and i t ' s r e f e r e n c e d to th e N itro Task F o rce, and y o u 're on th a t l i s t , is th a t correct, sir? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q And th e p a ra g ra p h s t a t e s , "We have receiv ed w ritte n co n firm ation from th e Jo u rn al o f O ccupational M edicine th a t the N itro M o rta lity Study has been accepted for publication as w ell as approval from D r. S uskind to r e le a s e th e a tta c h e d summary news r e l e a s e on Monday, O ctober 22. We w i l l g iv e i t wide J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l d i s t r i b u t i o n b e g in n in g a t 10 A .M ., S t. Louis t i m e / ' is n 't that rig h t, sir? A T h at's rig h t. Q Hand you w h a t's been n ark ed P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #62 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8323392 through #8323394), ask you to look a t th a t. P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #62, which is a three-page document authored by F. J . H olzapfel, dated October 29, 1979, the su b je c t m atter being liitro H ealth Study Task Force, Minutes o f M eeting October 29, 1979, an d i t shoves t h a t y o u 're r e c i p i e n t of t h i s docum ent, is that right? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q Under paragraph 1, page 1, "M o rta lity S tu d y ," s ta te s th a t you s e n t co p ies to Dr. S e lik o f f , Mr. R a t l i f f from th e S te e lw o rk e rs , NI05K, QSHA, NIE3H and Deni a t th e same tim e th e news r e le a s e was is s u e d , rig h t? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q Then th e re is a paragraph 2 , which is e n title d "F e e le r from S teelw o rk ers," is th a t rig h t? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q There a Dr. P a rk in so n , who i s a con s u lta n t to the S teelw orkers, had c a lle d Dr. Suskind to ex p lo re the p o s s i b ilit y o f having him meet w ith the J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E I Steelw orkers to ex p lain the Suskind study, is th a t rig h t? A T h at's r ig h t. Q And a r e th e y t a l k i n g a b o u t th e raorta. I l t y study or are they ta lk in g about the m orbidity study th a t h e 's doing? A As I r e c a l l , t h a t was in re fe re n c e to D r. S u sk in d 1s m o rb id ity s tu d y o f th e 436 in d iv i d u a ls . Q And, a p p a r e n tly , i t ' s come to some b o d y 's know ledge, and I would ta k e i t i t would be Mr. H o lz a p fe l's, the Steelw orkers were ir r ita te d a t S e lik o f f 's f a ilu r e to communicate r e s u lt s to those examined by him, rig h t? A T h at's rig h t. Q The Task F o rc e , meaning a l l o f you, agreed th a t Monsanto should encourage a m eeting of Suskind w ith b o th Monsanto and the S teelw o rk ers, i s n 't th at right? A T h at's rig h t. Q And i t s a y s , "D r.T illm an w i l l d e t e r mine s t a t u s from D r. R oush." W h at's t h a t mean? A T hat means I was to pursue w ith Dr. Roush th e p o s s i b i l i t y o f having a m eeting and a s k him to pursue th a t m a tte r i f he deemed i t a p p ro p ria te . Q Was t h a t done? A Yes. D r. P a rk in so n wasc o n ta c te d , and J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E I \ 1 a s I r e c a l l , he d id meet w ith Dr. Suskind in C in c in n a ti. 2 Q Can you t e l l me why, i f you know, 3 t h a t th e S uskind stu d y has n e v e r come o u t? ' 4 . A What I have been to ld i s th a t th is 5 inform ation is so voluminous th a t i t takes co n sid erab le 6 time to e v a lu a te i t , ta b u la te i t , to draw v ario u s con 7 clu sio n s to present to c e rta in consultants in the f ie ld , 8 to take sure they are accurate and c o rre c t, and having 9 to w rite the paper a f te r having done th is re q u ire s a 10 c o n s id e ra b le p e rio d o f tim e . T his i s n o t uncommon 11 f o r a s tu d y lik e t h i s to ta k e s e v e r a l y e a rs fo llo w in g 12 p u b lic a tio n , 13 Q There was some t a l k in p re v io u s docu 14 ments a b o u t him b ein g a b le to f i n i s h i t by December o f 15 *79, and i t ' s now th r e e and a h a l f y e a rs l a t e r . Was 16 th e r e some problem w ith i t , t h a t you know of? 17 A Not t h a t I'm aware o f . I 'm n o t s u re 18 t h a t i t was Dr. S uskind*s id e a o f December o f '7 9 . I 19 th in k t h a t was w is h f u l th in k in g in t h a t we would have 20 lik e d v e ry much to have e a r l y r e p o r t s o f w hat was found. 21 Q Under p a ra g ra p h 3 o f pages 1 and 2 o f 22 P l a i n t i f f s 1 D e p o s itio n E x h ib it #62 i t s a y s , "F eedback 23 S e l i k o f f to Those E m in e d ," i s n ' t t h a t r i g h t ? 24 A T h a t's r i g h t . 25 Q S ta te s t h a t th e y have been r e c e iv in g J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E I 1 l e t t e r s from Dr. S e lik o f f sa y in g th a t w ith in two weeks 2 each w ill receiv e a l e t t e r ex p lain in g the, re s u lts of 3 h is e x a m in a tio n e a r l i e r in th e y e a r. T h a t' s w hat was 4 stated there, is th at right? 5 A T h at's rig h t. 6 Q The Task F orce th en d is c u s s e d v a rio u s 7 p o ssib le ac tio n s and responses but agreed no a c tio n 8 should be tak en in advance o f r e c e i p t of l e t t e r s . 9 T h at's a lso c o rre c t, is i t not? 10 A T h a t's c o r r e c t . 11 Q T e ll me w hat was d is c u s s e d as p o s s ib le 12 a c tio n s and re s p o n s e s . 13 A I 'd have to r e f e r to my n o te s I have 14 ta k e n . I d o n 't have them in f r o n t o f me, so I c a n 't 15 r e a l l y t e l l you w hat we ta lk e d a b o u t fo u r y e a rs ag o . 16 Q Hand you w h a t's beenmarkedP l a i n t i f f s ' 17 E x h ib it #64 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #236249), a s k you 18 t o ta k e a lo o k a t t h a t . 19 P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #64, t h i s Is a f o u r20 page document a u th o re d by F . J . H o lz a p fe l, d a te d Novem 21 b e r 19, 1979. S u b je c t m a tte r i s N itr o H e a lth S tudy 22 T ask F o rc e , M inutes o f M eeting o f 1 1 /1 6 /7 9 , to the 23 T ask F orce o f w hich you a p p e a r to have a co p y , r i g h t ? 24 A T h a t's c o r r e c t . 25 Q F i r s t p a ra g ra p h on th e f i r s t page is J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l i 'l 1 e n t i t l e d , " F e e d b a c k -S e lik o ff to Those Exam ined,11 i s n ! t 2 th at correct? 3 A C orrect, 4 Q Says, nDr. S e lik o ff had se n t l e t t e r s 5 to th o se examined and Dr, M arion Moses was in C h a rle sto n 6 on 11/11 to d is c u s s w ith th o se em ployees i n t e r e s t e d . 7 No news s t o r i e s or TV co v erag e r e s u l t e d . We have no 8 in d ic a tio n of employee i n te r e s t or concern. Olin Dolin 9 w ill probe -- d is c re e tly ." Is th a t what th a t s-tates, sir? 10 A T h a t's c o r r e c t . 11 Q And he i s , w h at, head of -- 12. A O lin D olin? 13 Q R i g h t. 14 A I 'm n o t su re who O lin D olin i s . 15 know Owen. This may be a m is p r in t . I f i t ' s Owen D olin 16 b ein g r e f e r r e d t o , h e 's C h ie f C hem ist, 17 Q C h ief Chem ist th e r e a t N itr o a t t h a t tim e? 18 A R ig h t. 19 Q On p a ra g ra p h 2 ,h av in g s a i d , "E d u c a tio n 20 S te e lw o rk e rs H e ira c h y ," r i g h t ? 21 A R ig h t. 22 Q I t s a y s ,"M e ssrs. Roussenand Booth 23 o f S te e lw o rk e rs w ith Dr. P a rk in so n (S te e lw o rk e rs *1 con 24 s u l t a n t ) sch ed u led to spend 12/20 w ith Dr. Susklnd to 25 le a r n a b o u t ep idem iology s tu d y m ethodology," i s n ' t th a t 1 JA M ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E ? \ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I rig h t? A C orrect. Q "No in d ic a tio n o f u l t e r i o r m o tiv e, but in view of R oussen's egotism and b ia s , hope th a t t h i s w i l l n o t r e s u l t in g iv in g him a b a s is f o r b e l i t t l i n g S uskind s tu d y when p u b lis h e d ," r ig h t? A That*s what i t say s. Q Then on page 2 o f P l a i n t i f f s * E x h ib it 64 under paragraph 3 , " P u b lic a tio n - S e lik o ff and Suskind S tudies," right? A R ight. Q I t s ta te s in the f i r s t paragraph, "D r. M arion Moses is sch ed u led to ap p ear b efo re C ongress man E ck h ard t* s com m ittee and has announced p la n s to announce the r e s u lts of the S e lik o ff study then,*1 rig h t? A R ight. Q "Mr. P ickard has co n ta c te d the committee s ta f f and learned th a t they a re in no hurry to schedule h e a rin g s on Agent Orange and d io x in s,* ' is n * t th a t rig h t? A C orrect. Q And Mr. P ic k a rd i s who, s i r ? A He*s our lia s o n in W ashington. I*m not sure exactly what his to ta l ro le is th ere. Q He*s a l o b b y is t,i s n ' t he? A I would th in k t h a t may be a c o r r e c t t i t l e J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l 1 f o r him. 2 Q A r e g is te r e d lo b b y is t v?ith the govern3 ment? 4 A Yes, 1 b e lie v e so . I know he was a 5 Monsanto employee who was h e a d q u a rte re d in W ashington. 6 Q And i t goes on to s t a t e t h a t P ick ard 7 was to c o n ta c t the com m ittee s t a f f , i s n ' t t h a t c o rre c t? 8 A I t says he has co n ta c te d the com mittee 9 staff. 10 Q And t h a t 's th e s t a f f o f Congressman 11 E ck h a rd t and o th e r Congressm en, i s n ' t t h a t c o r r e c t? 12 A T h a t's r i g h t . 13 Q Then in the secondp arag rap h o fnum 14 bered p a ra g ra p h 3 , s a y s , "M essrs. M c C a rv ille /p ic k a rd 15 w i l l f u r n is h a copy o f th e m o r t a l i t y stu d y to th e 16 co m m ittee," i s n ' t t h a t r i g h t ? 17 A T h a t's r i g h t . 18 Q "T h is r e f e r s to a b ro a d e r stu d y to be 19 com pleted s h o r t l y - - and t h i s w i l l be c a lle d to th e 20 a tte n tio n o f th e com m ittee s t a f f , " i s n ' t t h a t r i g h t ? 21 A T h a t's r i g h t . 22 Q I t s t a t e s in th e t h i r d p arag rap h o f 23 numbered p a ra g ra p h 3 , " p r . Meyer r e p o r te d t h a t a r e c e n t 24 check w ith Dr. S u s k in d 's ' s t a f f co n firm s t h a t no r e p o r t 25 i s a n t i c i p a t e d b e fo re J a n u a ry ," and I guess th e y a r e i *I i J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E V: If I, . T1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 V 22 23 24 25 l ta lk in g about the m orbidity study, is th a t rig h t? A I b e lie v e t h a t 's c o r r a c t . We mads r e - peated e ffo rts to get th a t study. I think i t indicates D r. S u s k in d 's independence when he d id n o t y ie ld to any p re s s u re on our p a r t when we t r i e d to g e t him to make h is f in d in g s p u b lic . MR. PRATT; Move to s t r i k e t h a t s t a t e 'ment as n o n -re sp o n siv e . t Q (By Mr. P r a t t ) Number 4 s a y s , "S uskind Feedback to Employees," is th a t rig h t? A Yes. Q One o f th e em ployees had w r i tte n to Suskind fo r the d e ta ils of h is exam ination and had been refcsed and was r e f e r r e d to h is p e rs o n a l p h y s ic ia n , i s n ' t that right? A T h at's rig h t, Q Hand you w h a t's been marked F l a i n t i f f s * E x h ib it #65 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #8331279), ask you to take a look a t th a t, s ir . P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #65, which is a tw o-page document a u th o re d by F . C. M eyer, d a te d November 21, 1979, the s u b je c t being Suskind*s November 20th M eeting w ith Dr. P arkinson and Union R e p re se n ta tiv e s L. R a t l i f f and D elan ey (L o cal V .P .) . Y o u 're shown on the d is trib u tio n as being in the Task Force, i s n 't th a t JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E ir _Cn>O \ 1 correct, sir? 2 A T h at's c o rre c t. 3 Q And the f i r s t p a ra g ra p h s a y s , "D r. 4 Suskind c a lle d to re p o rt b r ie f ly the r e s u lts of his 5 November 2 0 -su b jec t m eetin g ," i s n 't th a t c o rre c t? 6 A T h at's c o rre c t. 7 Q The n e x t p a ra g ra p h s t a t e s , "The overa31 8 m eetin g wa's f r i e n d l y and fra n k in to n e , a lth o u g h , no m 9 h ig h e r o f f i c i a l s of the N a tio n a l Union showed u p." 10 I s n ' t t h a t what t h a t say s? 11 A T h a t's c o r r e c t . 12 Q P a ra g ra p h e n t i t l e d 1s a y s , "No m ention 13 was made of S e l i k o f f 's s tu d y , and Suskind d id n o t f e e l 14 i t a p p r o p r ia te to b rin g i t u p ," i s n ' t t h a t r i g h t , s i r ? 15 A T h a t's r i g h t . 16 Q Then he d is c u s s e s th e p r o to c o l in p a ra 17 g rap h numbered 2 as approved by th e U n iv e r s ity o f C in 18 c i n n a t i M edical S chool C l i n i c a l Review Com m ittee, and 19 t h i s was rev iew ed in d e p th by Dr. P ark in so n and th e 20 Union r e p r e s e n ta tiv e s , is th a t r i g h t , s i r ? 21 A T h a t's r i g h t . .`22 Q And "S u sk in d showedt h a t t h i s was n o t 23 j u s t a l o c a l s tu d y , b u t th e N itr o s tu d y r e l a t e d to o th e r 24 w o rld d io x in a c c i d e n t s , su ch as V ietnam and S e v e so ." 25 A T h a t's c o r r e c t .l J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l 1 1 Q "He in d ic a te d a w e ll - c o n tr o l le d , ob 2 j e c t i v e stu d y h e re co u ld make a le s s w e ll- c o n tr o lle d 3 stu d y proposed f o r the VA o f q u e s tio n a b le v a l u e ," 4 is th at correct? ; 5 A That's co rrect. 6 Q Than th e re is p a re n th e s is th a t sa y s, 7 "Not in the eyes of v eteran groups," is n ' t th a t rig h t? 8 'A T h a t's r i g h t . m 9 Q Numbered p arag rap h 3 he s ta te d he r e 10 viewed the procedures and types o f in d iv id u a l examina 11 t io n r e s u l t s w hich had been com pleted and su p p lie d to 12 p h y s ic ia n s d e s ig n a te d by th e p a r t i c i p a n t s . This i n 13 clu d e d e a r l y recom m endations by fo llo w u p (by ' phone 14 where f e l t u rg e n t) ex a m in a tio n or tre a tm e n t of c o n d i 15 tio n s w h eth er r e l a t e d or n o t to any o c c u p a tio n a l 16 a s s o c i a t i o n . T h a t's s t a t e d in t h a t p a ra g ra p h , i s n ' t 17 t h a t c o r r e c t? 18 A C o r r e c t. 19 Q - P a ra g ra p h 4 , ''The Union r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s 20 questioned w hether they would g e t the r e s u l t s , and Sus21 kind a s s u re d them t h a t h is ag reem en t c a lle d f o r a l l i n 22 t e r e s t e d g ro u p s, governm ent a g e n c ie s , WHO, em ployees 23 a s w e ll a s Monsanto would have a c c e ss to th e p u b lish e d 24 o v e r a l l r e s u l t s o f th e s tu d y ," i s n ' t t h a t c o r r e c t? 25 A T h a t's c o r r e c t . J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l , ^ 1 2 3 .4 5 6 7 8 * 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 i V 21 - 22 23 24 25 Q Of c o u rs e , M onsanto's a lr e a d y had in fo rm atio n , have they n o t, s ir ? A No, I h a v e n 't rece iv ed any inform ation of in d iv id u a l r e s u lts , and I h a v e n 't seen' any published o v e r a l l r e s u l t s of th e s tu d y . As you p o in te d o u t, i t w asn 't published yet. Q H asn 't Monsanto seen p relim in ary re p o rts -- 'A We seen t a b l u l a t i o n s o f some o f th e d a t a . We have n o t seen r e p o r t s . Q W ell, h av en 't they seen prelim inary reports, sir? A I'm n o t su re I knew what you mean by prelim inary rep o rt. Q Or rough d r a f t s ? A No, I h a v e n 't seen any rough d r a f ts which precede p u b lic a tio n . Q D on't they have copies of a l l the data t h a t was g e n e ra te d in t h i s s tu d y a l l the way from th e m edical data th a t they had c o n tro l o f from N itro and from th e d ata g en erated a t the exam inations a t Putnam County M edical C enter? A Are you ta lk in g a b o u t in d iv id u a l r e s u l t s ? Q I'm ta lk in g ab o u t raw d a ta , A No, s i r , we have n o t seen th e raw d a ta . Q Would you be one th a t would see t h e . raw J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 87 ; 1 d ata had i t been d isc lo se d ? 2 A T h at's e n tire ly probable. 3 Q Is i t p o ssib le th a t i t has been viewed 4 by persons from Monsanto and you n o t be inclu d ed in th a t 5 group? 6 A I would th in k th a t h ig h ly u n lik e ly . 7 Q Page 2, paragraph 5, "The Union asked 8 about m o rtality data for chloracne cases not associated 9 w ith the ac cid e n t, fo r other 2,4,5-T exposed persons 10 and f o r non-exposed w o rk e rs ." T hat was s a id in t h a t 11 p a ra g ra p h , r ig h t? 12 A R ig h t. 13 Q "S uskind in d ic a te d th e se would be r e 14 p o rte d in M on san to 's fo llo w u p s tu d ie s and p u b lis h e d ," 15 i s t h a t c o r r e c t? 16 A T h a t's r i g h t . 17 Q And is t h a t th e stu d y t h a t comas a f t e r 18 th e 121 p eo p le? 19 A Yes. , 20 Q Do you have an y id e a where a copy of 21 t h a t s tu d y co u ld be o b ta in e d ? 22 A R ig h t o ff. th e to p of my h e`a d , no. 23 MR. PRATT:' O ff the r e c o r d . 24 (Whereupon d is c u s s io n was had o ff th e 25 r e c o r d .) J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l fr IL 1 Q (By Mr. P r a t t ) Then in th e l a s t p a ra 2 graph of page 2 of P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 65, "Suskind 3 indicated his w illingness to te s tify , if asked, before 4 a C o n g re s sio n a l com m ittee (presum ably E c k h a r d t's ) on 5 the re s u lts of h is N itro study, p o ssib ly to counter 6 b a la n c e Dr. Moses proposed r e p o r t of th e S e lik o f f s tu d y ," 7 is n 't that correct, sir? 8 A T h at's c o rre c t. 9 Q Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' 10 E x h ib it #66 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #8323441), a s k you 11 to ta k e a look a t t h a t , s i r . 12 E x h ib it #66, w hich c o n s is ts of fo u r 13 p a g e s , w hich i s marked December 10, 1979, th e N itr o 14 H e a lth S tudy Task F o rc e , M inutes of M eeting o f 1 2 /7 /7 9 , 15 and you w ere p r e s e n t, i s n ' t t h a t c o r r e c t , s i r ? 16 A T h a t's c o r r e c t . 17 Q - On th e second p ag e, second p a ra g ra p h , 18 " D r. S u sk in d -E c k h ard t C om m ittee." 19 A Y esv 20 Q "D r. Suskind had in d ic a te d to Dr. Meyer 21 (on 11/21) a w illin g n e s s to t e s t i f y b e fo re th e E ck h ard t 22 Committee when i t h o ld s h e a rin g s on A gent O ra n g e /d io x in s 23 n e x t y e a r ." 24 A T h a t's w hat i t s a y s . 25 Q " B i l l M cC arv ille had a g re e d to s u g g e s t J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E t 1 to th e Committee s t a f f th a t Dr. Suskind be in v ite d to 2 t e s t i f y . 11 I s n ' t t h a t w hat t h a t s a y s , s i r ? 3 A I t does. 4 Q Under 5 , " S e lik o f f S tu d y -V is it by Dr. 5 Moses to C h a rle s to n ." S t a t e s , " V i s i t u n e v e n tfu l. No 6 p u b lic ity , no q uestions from em ployees, no u n re s t," 7 does i t n o t, s ir? 8 A T h at's what th a t paragraph says. 9 Q And t h a t document was a u th o re d by F .J . 10 H o lz a p fe l. 11 Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' 12 E x h ib it #72, s i r , (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #232050), a s k 13 you to tak e L lo o k a t t h a t . 14 P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #72 c o n s is ts of 15 t h r e e p ag e s, th e f i r s t page b e in g a l e t t e r from Dan R. 16 B ish o p , D ir e c to r o f E n v iro n m en tal Com m unications, to 17 Mr. Don Dare o f KSDK news in S t. L o u is , M is s o u ri, d a te d 18 F e b ru a ry 8 , 1580. T h a t's a l e t t e r to Mr. D are, i s i t 19 n o t , s i r ? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And in the* l e t t e r Mr. B ishop is com- 22 p la in in g a b o u t a s o - c a lle d docum entary t h a t was done 23 t h a t he had g iv en in fo rm a tio n i n , i s n ' t t h a t r i g h t ? 24 A T h a t's r i g h t . 25 Q S t a t i n g t h a t somehow he had been s h o r t - J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E changed, is n 't th at correct? A X d o n 't see those words here, Q W ell, I mean, In o th e r w ords, what h e 's sa y in g i s he d i d n 't f e e l i t was a f a i r in te rv ie w , r ig h t? A I d o n 't see him saying th a t e ith e r . Q W ell, i f y o u 'll look a t the th ird para graph, s t a t e s , "The f a c t th a t you chose to ignore i t c o m p le te ly in your s o - c a lle d docum entary -- p u zz les me to say the le a s t." I s n 't th a t what i t says? A I t says he was p u z z le d , y es. Q Then on pages 2 and 3 o f P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #72 is a memo from Dan R. Bishop to a number of people, dated February 13, 1980, the su b je c t being KSDK/Agent O range, and y o u 're one o f th o se r e c i p i e n t s , a re you not? A I am. Q And, ap p a re n tly , i t says In the f i r s t p a ra g ra p h , "F or your in fo rm a tio n , Don Dare o f KSDK news c a lle d Tuesday in rep o n se to my l e t t e r o f F e b ru a ry 8 w ith th e fo llo w in g comments. He s a id he was s o r r y I was d is a p p o in te d w ith th e docum entary and t h a t he f e l t i t was f a i r -- v ery f a i r . " Is th a t what th a t s t a t e s , s i r A T h at's r ig h t. Q Hand you w h a t's beenmarked P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #73 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #232076). J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E _Wp* ti 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 'l P l a i n t i f f s * E x h ib it #73 is a memo from Dan R. B ishop, l& rch 6 , 1S80, and i t * s to a number of people, most o f which a re in the Task Force Committee, and you b ein g a r e c i p i e n t o f t h i s memo, i s n ' t t h a t correct? \ - A T hat's c o rre c t. Q The f i r s t p a ra g ra p h s t a t e s , "F or your in fo rm a tio n , th e a tta c h e d w i l l be o f i n t e r e s t . By the way, th is is the f i r s t press conference to A u stralian veterans jo in in g in the c la ss ac tio n s u it." T hat's what that sta te s, rig h t, sir? A That's rig h t. Q And h e 's r e f e r r i n g to th e Agent Orange class action s u it, is th at right? A I presume t h a t 's what i t meant. Q Then he s t a t e s in p arag rap h 2, " In a r e l a t e d m a tte r , you sh o u ld know t h a t M onsanto was in v ite d and has graciously declined an in v ita tio n to defend our p o s it io n on A gent Orange on th e CBS Evening News," isn 't that co rrect, sir? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q Goes on to s t a t e , "Dow and H ercules d e c lin e d b efo re u s. I gave as our re a s o n , 'Monsanto has nothing to gtin by step p in g forward and being p er- ceived by your m illio n s o f view ers as the te r r ib le JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E lf 9 [ 1 chem ical company re sp o n sib le fo r a l l those h o rrib le 2 a i l m e n t s , 1" i s n ' t t h a t c o r r e c t , s i r ? 3 A Tha t ' s c o rre c t . 4 Q 1 hand you w h a t's been marked P la in t if f s I 5 E x h ib it #128 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8330035), and ask 6 you to ta k e a look a t t h a t , s i r . 7 T his document is a memo to th e f i l e 8 w hich y o u 're c c 'd on from I*'. C. Meyer, d a te d i-ferch 9 9 of 1979, the su b je c t of which is N itro -2 ,4 ,5 -T S tu d ies, 10 Dr. Raymond Suskind 'Phone D isc u ssio n s 3 /7 /7 9 , r ig h t? 11 A T h a t's c o r r e c t . 12 Q F i r s t p a ra g ra p h s t a t e s , " C o n ta c t m a e 13 w ith Dr. S uskind to d eterm in e h is sc h e d u le o f open d a te s 14 and p o t e n t i a l tim in g f o r c o n d u c tin g a N itr o P la n t m edi 15 c a l e x a m in a tio n s tu d y on form er Sodium T C P /2,4,5-T l w o rk e rs ." T h a t's w hat i t s t a t e s in th e f i r s t p a ra g ra p h , 17 r i g h t ? 18 A T h a t's r i g h t . 19 Q Second p a ra g ra p h d e a ls w ith h is un 20 a v a i l a b i l i t y t o do th e s tu d y u n t i l l a t e A p r i l, e a r l y I-fey, 21 i s n ' t t h a t c o r r e c t? 22 A ,T h a t's r i g h t . 23 Q The t h i r d p a ra g ra p h d e a ls w ith th e 24 s tu d y p r o to c o l where h e 's c o n s id e rin g co m bination o f a l l 25 c a s e s , b o th a c t i v e and r e t i r e d , o f c h lo ra c n e a s s o c ia te d J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E w ith Sodium tric tib ro p h e n o l and 2 ,4 ,5 -T , which includes group 1 (1949 a c c id e n t-a s s o c ia te d ) and group 2 (p o st a c c id e n t-a s s o c ia te d cases) and comparing those w ith w orkers exposed to Sodium tric lilo ro p h e n o l and 2 ,4 ,5 -T who d id n o t g e t c h lo ra c n e , i s n ' t t h a t c o r r e c t? "A T h a t's c o r r e c t. Q "A t h i r d group f o r c o n tr o ls would be c o n s tru c te d from w orkers who had no known c o n ta c t w ith Sodium tric h lo ro p h e n o l/2 ,4 ,5 -T i f s u f f i c i e n t numbers w ith the req u ired matching c h a ra c te ris tic s are a v a il a b le ." T hat's what i t says, rig h t, s ir? A Yes. Q I t goes on to s t a t e in the th ir d p a ra graph, " I f n o t, he would lik e to co n sid er w hether c o n tro ls from an o th er lo c a l p la n t or even a Monsanto p la n t from a n o th e r lo c a tio n could be p ro v id ed ." T h a t's what th a t s ta te s , rig h t? A T h at's rig h t. Q Then Meyer s a y s , "We a r e exam ining th e m icro film tap es of the r e tr o s p e c tiv e N itro work h is to ry data to confirm these groups in order to meet the r e quired m edical study tim ing," i s n 't th a t c o rre c t, s ir? A Yeah, t h a t 's work h is to ry d a ta , yeah. Q Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #85 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8323831), and ask J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E li you to look a t th a t. P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it #85, which c o n sists o f two p a g e s, i s a u th o re d by R. M. S c o tt, who a t the tim e was P la n t Manager a t N itr o , i s n 't th a t r i g h t , s ir ? A T hat's rig h t, Q Dated March 17. The s u b je c t is N itro H ealth Study Task F orce, M inutes of M eeting March 14, 1980, and i t shows th a t you were p r e s e n t, i s n ' t th a t c o rre c t? A T h at's c o rre c t, Q And u n d er 1 i t s a y s , "S u sk in cS t a t u s , " does i t not? A Yes. Q S t a t e s , "A m eeting among B i l l G affey , Judy Z.ack and D r. Suskind is s e t f o r March 31, 1580. Suskind has in d ic a te d th a t the data m ight be (no prom ise) ready fo r p relim in ary review ," Second paragraph says, "The f i r s t o u tp u t from the N itro m o rta lity stu d y (number 2) is b e in g rev ie w e d . I t c o v e rs d ea th s o n ly on exposed v e rs u s non-exposed in d iv id u a ls who worked h o u rly em ploym ent s in c e 1955." Goes on to s t a t e , "The scope i s 800 p eo p le and 150 d e a th s w ith in a 100% t r a c e . " T h at's what i t s ta te s thus fa r in th is paragraph, rig h t, sir? Rig* t . J AME S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l t 1 Q Goss on to s a y , " I n d ic a tio n s e ra t h a t 2 th a m o r ta lity o f exposed w orkers Is O.K. compared to 3 n a t i o n a l a v e r a g e s ." T h a t1** w hat t h a t s t a t e s , r ig h t? 4 A R ight. `' : 5 Q "The non-exposed group shows a s l i g h t l y 6 high c a rd io v a sc u la r in c id e n t r a te compared to n a tio n a l 7 a v e ra g e s . The stu d y w i l l e v e n tu a lly be compared to 8 in c id e n t r a t e s in th e Kanawha V a lle y , b u t t h i s com pari 9 son is not p resen tly ready," and th a t's what th at s ta te s , 10 r i g h t , s i r ? 11 A R ig h t. 12 CJ And c h a t 's th e s tu d y t h a t we have 13 been ta lk in g a b o u t, w hich i s a f t e r th e stu d y t h a t S us- 14 kind and Zack d id t h a t 's iu the J o u rn a l of O cc u p a tio n a l 15 M e d icin e , r i g h t ? 16 A R ig h t. 17 - * 1* hA i * aAi* ^\ ^ *o,4 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 *i l J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E I t 7 (Whereupon th e fo llo w in g proceedings 2 were had on June 28, 1983. 3 Q (By Mr. P r a t t ) Hand you w h at' s been 4 marked P la in tif f s * D ep o sitio n E x h ib it #139 (Monsanto 5 id e n tif ic a tio n #8326129), a sk you to take a look a t 6 that, s ir. 7 P la in tiffs* E xhibit #139, cover le tte r 8 a p p e a rs to be a memo from Dan R. B ishop, d a te d March 9 19, 1980, to Dr. C a l l i s , Dr. G affey, Mr. H o lz a p fe l, 10 Dr. M c C a rv ille , Dr. M eyer, Mr. P a rk , Mr. S c o t t , Dr. 71 T illm a n , Mr. Wander and Mr. W ilk in s, is t h a t c o r r e c t , 12 s i r ? 13 A T h a t's c o r r e c t . 14 Q And pages 2 th ro u g h 14 a p p e a r to be 15 M onsanto' s o f f i c i a l p o s it io n on A gent O range, i s n ' t 16 t h a t c o r r e c t ? 17 A W e ll, i t ' s th e f i r s t d r a f t o f t h a t 18 p o s i t i o n . 19 Q F i r s t d r a f t . A l l r i g h t . Now, on 20 page 15 i s a n o th e r co v er l e t t e r by Dan R. B ishop, 21 d a te d March 11, 1980, s u b je c t, A gent Orange P o s itio n , 22 and i t l i s t s Dr. C a rp e n te r, Dr. S p u rr ie r and Messrs.. 23 F i s c h e r , In g e n th ro n , McKee and Wander, w ith a copy to 24 s e v e r a l o th e r p e rs o n s . 25 A I m ight add t h a t I was n o t in c lu d e d in J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l fc r i r 1 that d istrib u tio n . 2 Q You a r e on th e o r i g i n a l . 3 A In the o rig in a l, but these were issued 4 on s e p a r a te d a t e s , March 19 and March 11. 5 Q W ell, what we're g e ttin g a t , Dr. T i l l 6 man, i s pages 16 th ro u g h 26, th e f i n a l d r a f t o f t h i s / p o sitio n paper. 8 (Whereupon d is c u s s io n wan had o f f th e 9 reco rd .) 10 Q (By Mr. P r a t t ) Are you a b le to t e l l 11 i f pages 16 th ro u g h 26 is th e f i n a l d r a f t ? 12 A I c a n 't s t a t e t h a t from t h i s . I have 13 no way o f t e l l i n g w hich is th e f i n a l d r a f t . N e ith e r 14 o f th o se two documents a re d a te d as to when th e y a r e 15 p u b lis h e d , and th e one, pages 16 th ro u g h 26, i s 16 a t t a c h e d to a l e t t e r w ith a d a te p re c e d in g th e e a r l i e r 17 one. 18 Q I th in k i f you look a t th e bottom o f 19 page 2 6 , you see a d a te March 3 , 1980. 20 A I see th a t. 21 Q You lo o k a t page 12, you s e e ,"R ev ised 22 March 17, 1980." 23 A Yes. 24 Q S o , I t a k e i t , th e document w hich is 25 2 th ro u g h 14 would be th e r e v is e d d r a f t , would you a g r e e *l JAM ES MAY R E PO R TIN G SER VIC E l '* t / * 1 w ith t h a t , based on th e d a t e s , anyway? 2 A Yes, based on th o se d a te s I would. 3 Q L e t me a s k you, w here was t h i s docu A ment dissem inated? 5 A X th in k th e only th in g X can t e l l you 6 is w hat i t shews on th e memo a tta c h e d to i t , to th e 7 p eo p le t h a t a r e named on t h e r e . You have a lr e a d y nan?3d 8 most o f them. T h e re 's a l s o Mr. B e re n d t, Mr. McKee, 9 Mr. Nolan and Mr. T hrodahl named h e re . 10 Q I f y o u 'l l look a t page E o f P l a i n t i f f s ' 11 E x h ib it 139, second p a ra g ra p h o f th e t e x t o f the memo 12 from Mr, Bishop s a y s , "We in te n d to ra k e m u lti-p h a se d 13 i n t e r n a l d i s t r i b u t i o n o f t h i s in fo rm a tio n , fo llo w ed by 14 s e l e c t e d e x t e r n a l d i s t r i b u t i o n , in th e .n e x t few w eek s." 15 What is m u lti-p h a s e d i n t e r n a l d i s t r i b u t i o n ? 16 A T h a t's a p p a re n tly , a PR term w ith w hich 17 I'm n o t f a m i l i a r and c a n 't answ er you. 18 Q You d o n 't know who w ith in th e company 19 g o t i t , th e n , o th e r th a n w h a t's shewn -- 20 A . Only th in g I can t e l l you is w h a t's /21 on th e p ag e . There a r e a few a d d i t i o n a l names on t h is 22 memo I d i d n 't re a d o f f th e p re v io u s memo. 23 Q What a b o u t e x t e r n a l d i s t r i b u t i o n ? 24 A A g ain , t h a t ' s PR f u n c tio n w ith w hich 25 X have no in v o lv em en t, and I have no id e a w hat to t e l l -- .... t - , JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E i V 1;7-P' ' l 5 ,* 9 s 1 2 3 -4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ..J ..-. 21 22 23 24 25 *< you about th a t. Q A p p aren tly , i f y o u 'll look a t page 5 and pages 13 and 14, w hat th e p o s it io n p ap er i s r a l y - ing upon, a t le a s t as to page 5, a re fiv e so -c a lle d s c i e n t i f i c s tu d i e s , i s n ' t th a t c o r r e c t , and you sea those -\ A Those s tu d ie s a re c ite d by tha numbers in the parentheses and re fe rre d to in the reference? on page 13 and i n t o page 14. Q Those docum ents w ere w r i t t e n by, num- b e r ' .1 , Lamm; number 2 , fe n te l; number 3 , Newton; number 4 , A. H. S m ith; 5 , S. L. Wagner and o th e r s , r ig h t? A Tha t 1s c o rre e t . Q Then o th e r s tu d ie s .th a t th is p o s itio n paper r e l i e s upon or o th e r in c id e n ts would be the Seveso one w hich is ta lk e d a b o u t on pages 7 and 8 , r i g h t ? A R ight. Q And N itr o , w hich i s found on pages 8 th ro u g h 12 o f P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 139? A Yes. Q And w hat is d is c u s s e d on pages 3 th ro u g h 12 i s th e m o r t a l i t y s tu d y by S u sk in d and Zack, i s n ' t th a t conset, sir? A T h a t's mentioned as p a rt of th a t. Q And a l s o S u s k in d 's N itr o e p id e m io lo g ic a l JA M ES MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E t 1 r i 1 stu d y which is no t in p r in t y e t, i s n 't th a t co rrect? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Those a re th e so le documents w ith the 4 e x c e p tio n , i f y o u 'l l lo o k on page 14, o f th e a r t i c l e s 5 co n tain ed in number 6 through 13, r ig h t? 6 \ 7 A I d o n 't know w hat your q u e s tio n i s . Q W ell, I say , the fiv e documents tlic t 8 we ta lk e d a b o u t p lu s the d is c u s s io n o f the Seveso 9 i n c i d e n t and th e two s tu d ie s 0f Sue k in d and Zack, S u s - 10 k in d p lu s a r t i c l e s t h a t a r e c o n ta in e d in a r t i c l e s 6 11 th ro u g h 13 a re w hat a re r e l i e d upon f o r th i s p o s itio n 12 p a p e r, i s t h a t r i g h t ? 13 A Those a r e th e ones t h a t a r e c i t e d h e r e . 14 Q Of c o u r s e , th e w orld l i t e r a t u r e on 15 d io x in i s p ro b a b ly how many docum ents? 16 A Oh, I ' d have to sa y th e r e a r e p ro b ab ly 17 more th an 4 0 ,0 0 0 o f th o se by now. 18 Q I hand you w h a t's been marked P la in 19 t i f f s ' D e p o sitio n E x h ib it #87 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n 20 #8323866), s i r . 21 P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it # 8 7 , s i r , is a 22 docum ent a u th o re d by R. M. S c o tt and d a te d A p r il 21, 23 1980, th e s u b j e c t o f w hich is N itr o H e a lth S tu d y Task 24 F o rc e , M inutes o f M eeting o f A p r i l 18, 1980, i s n ' t 25 t h a t c o r r e c t ? l J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E lL A That's correct. Q And the Task Force is shown t h e r e , and y o u 're one o f the members of th e Task F o rc e, r ig h t? A R ight. Q Under 1, "Suskind S ta tu s ," s ta te s , "Judy Z b ck and Dr. G affey met v;ith Dr. Suskind and Dr. \ B l a ir Sm ith in C in c in n a ti on March 31, I960, to e s t a b l i s h the sta tu s of the N itro H ealth Study," is th a t correct? A C orrect, Q "S tatu ? re p o rtin d ic a te s th a t Dr. Suskind is s t i l l in the 'com puter p h a s e ,' working w ith the c.rta input," is th at right? A T h at's rig h t. Q Goes on to say in t h a t p a ra g ra p h , "D r. S uskind in d ic a te d t h a t he ex p e cte d d a ta in p u t to be com p le te in about a month and then th e a n a ly s is e f f o r ts could begin," is th a t rig h t? A T h at's r ig h t. Q Second p a ra g ra p h o f th a t number I ite-n. s a y s , "The group d iscu ssed methods to co n sid er fo r improv ing the com pletion tim ing. Dr. C a llis and Fred H olzapfel a g re e to review f u r th e r w ith Mr. Thfodahl seek in g a s s i s ta n c e (done 4 /1 8 /8 0 ) ." Do you r e c a l l w hat was s a id ab o u t im proving co m p letio n tim in g , how th e y ,w e re going to do i t ? A No. I can only t e l l you w h a t'th e m inutes J A M E 5 MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E L . ,1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22' 23 24 25 read here as to what went on. Q T hird p arag rap h Y7ar. an i n v i t a t i o n from Suskind to the new h e a lth c e n te r opening on May 9 of 1980, is n 't th at correct? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q Then th e second ite m , w hich if. or. th e bottom o f page 1 of E x h ib it 7 and th e top o f page 2, is d e lin e a te d , "Monsanto S tudy," and, I take i t , chat would be the second m o r ta lity s tu d y , i;; t h a t c o r r e c t? A T h at's w h at's re fe rre d to in the f i r s t sentence and o th e rs. Q Vas S uskind in t h a t stu d y in an)* way, shape o r form t h a t you know of? A I'm n o t su re what kind of work hi may have done w ith i t . I know we used him as a c o n s u lta n t to be su re of c o rre c tn e s s of th e d a ta being p u t in to a study of th a t s o rt, co rrectn ess of in te rp re ta tio n . Q W hether he d id any a c t u a l work or cons u i t i n g on t h a t stu d y - A I c a n 't speak to th a t point. Q Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' D epo sitio n E x h ib it #89 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8323376), and ask you to look a t th a t, s i r . P la in tif f s ' D eposition E xhibit #89, s ir , i s a fo u r-p a g e document a u th o re d by R. M. S c o tt, d ated '{ 1 l JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E , II >.# 1 h " . I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 May 19, 1980, s u b je c t is K itr o H e a lth S tudy Task Foret., M inutes o f M eeting o f May 16, 1950, i s n ' t t h a t r ig h t? A T lir t1.- r i g h t . Q And th o se p r e s e n t were th e p e rs o n s : 1 in v o lv ed w ith th e Task. F o rc e , in c lu d in g y o u r s e lf , r ig h t? A R ight. *5, Q And on th e bottom of page 1, a g a in , the Suskind S ta tu s , item 2, is d iscu ssed , rig h t? A Tcs. Q A gain, th e g i s t of t h a t p arag rap h i<tr y in g to f ig u r e ways to speed up S u rk in d '-j r e s u l t ; . , i s n ' t that correct? A Thr-t's r ig h t. Q On page 2 o f P l a i n t i f f s ' :->:hibit F9, item 3, "Monsanto Study," s t a t e s , "D r. Gaffey in d ic a te d th a t Judy Zack had com pleted a second pass a t the computer output fo r th e -N itro m o rta lity re la te d to a l l employees a t N itro sin ce 1955." T h a t's what th a t s ta te s , rig h t? A T h at's rig h t. Q L ast sentence says, "Completion is expec te c w ith in a few w eeks, b u t Dr. G affey f e l t th a t th is would have to go through D r. Suskind b efo re p u b lic a tio n ," is n 't th at correct? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q So, a p p a re n tly , on th a t second m o rta lity * % l J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E * - ' i s tu d y he d id have som- involvem ent in the? th in g . A As I m en tio n ed , Dr. Suskind has been a prim e c o n s u lta n t f o r m a tte rs o f t h i s s o r t to be f'u rc of the s c ie n tific correctness of w hat's w ritte n . Q A ll r i g h t , Hand you w h a t' s been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 140 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8324030), ask you to take a look a t th a t. Thin is a document, P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 140, is a document au th o re d by you to " red Hoi c a p fu l, d a te d 6 /5 /8 0 , i s n 11 t h a t c o r r e c t , s i r ? A T hat's co rrect. Q And i t d is c u s s e s in g e n e ra l the b r in g in g in o f Dr. P ark in so n who i s a c o n s u lta n t to th e U nited S te e lw o rk e rs U nion, b r in g in g him in to have some re la tio n s h ip w ith th is Suskind m orbidity stu d y , is n ' t th at correct? A To be p r e s e n t when t h a t s tu d y was r e ported, yes. Q Of c o u rs e , t h a t 's moot because i t h a s n 't been reported, i s n 't th a t rig h t? A No, t h a t 'r n o t e n t i r e l y c o r r e c t. Dr. S uskind d id make a p r e s e n ta tio n to th e em ployees a t the N itro P lan t summarizing h is fin d in g s. Dr. Parkinson was in v ite d to a tte n d b u t was u n ab le to be th e r e . Q O.K. has t h a t p ro ceed in g reco rd ed ? J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E t ?. -1 *t 1 1 2 3 4 '5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21. 22 23 24 25 A Yes, i t was vLdeotaped. MR, PRATT: O ff th e r e c o r d . (Whereupon d is c u s s io n was had o f f the re c o rd .) ... Q (By Mr. F r a t t ) Hand you w h e t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it 141 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n \ #8324046), and a sk you to take a look a t t h a t , s i r . P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it '-141 i s a r.Ci.o from F. J . E o lz a p fe l to R. M. S c o tt v ;ith y o u r s e lf r e c e iv in g a copy, is n 't th at correct? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q The f i r s t p arag rap h d e a ls w ith the f a c t th a t the company's going to in v ite Dr. Parkinson t o a tte n d when Dr. S uskind review s the r e s u l t s o f the: stu d y to the company, is th a t c o rre c t? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q Hand you w h a t's been nark ed P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it #92 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #232139), ask you to take a look a t th a t. T his i s a memo from Dan R. Bishop to the N itro H ealth Study Task Force, dated Ju ly 10, 1900, is th a t correct? '' A T h at's c o rre c t. Q And i t has to do w ith h e a rin g s t h a t were h e ld on A gent O range, r i g h t ? 1l l J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E * A Yes, th a t's c o rre c t. Q F i r s t p a ra g ra p h s t a t e s , ,TFor your in fo rm a tio n , on T uesday, J u ly 22 th e M edical F a c i l i t i e s and B e n e fits Subcom m ittee of th e House V eteran s Committee w ill hold h ea rin g s on Agent O range." A T h at's what i t says. \ Q Second paragraph say s, " I t 's believed t h a t D r. S e lik o f f w i l l t e s t i f y , a l o n g w ith o th e rs sym p a th e tic to th e v e te r a n s , in w hat prom ises to be a w itc h -h u n t sta g e d f o r the news m edia," is th a t c o rre c t? A T hat's c o rre c t. Q "No one from in d u s tr y has been in v ite d to te s tif y ." T hat's a lso sta te d th e re , rig h t? A T h at's a lso sta te d . Q The l a s t p a ra g ra p h s a y s , "ABC w i l l have a 20/20 crew th e re and w ill probably a i r som ething on Ju ly 24. I'm p lan n in g to a tte n d the h e a rin g s as a specator," is th a t correct? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q Hand you w h a t's beenmarked P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #93 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #232148), ask you to look a t th a t. A O.K. Q This document, E x h ib it #93, is authored by Dan R. B ish o p , d a te d J u ly 2 5 , 1980, s u b je c t being J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l 1 House A gent Orange H e a rin g , and i t ' s to members o f the 2 N itro H ealth Study T a s k Force, is th a t co rrect? 3 A T h at's c o rre c t. 4 Q The f i r s t p a ra g ra p h s t a t e s , nFor your 5 in fo rm a tio n , th e h e a rin g s of th e House V eterans Committee 6 were p r e d ic ta b le and d u l l , Monsanto was n o t m entioned, 7 b u t Dow ca u g h t q u ite a b i t o f f l a k , 11 is tii a t c o r r e c t , s i r ? 8 A T h at's c o rre c t. 9 Q Next paragraph i s , "Dr. Suskind did 10 n o t t e s t i f y . He p u lle d o u t a t th e l a s t m in u te, a p p a r e n t 11 l y r e a l i z i n g w hat he was a b o u t to g e t in v o lv ed in . Dr. 12 E p s te in , in h is u s u a l r a p i d - f i r e s t y l e , in d ic te d th e 13 phenoxy h e r b ic id e s and d io x in - - c a l l i n g TCDD t h e 1most 14 p o te n t s y n th e tic c a rc in o g e n known to man1 and a po w erfu l 15 te ra to g e n and mutagen w hich c a u se s 'm u lti- s y s te m 1 c h ro n ic 16 e f f e c t s . " I s t h a t w hat t h a t sa y s? 17 A . Yes. 18 Q N ext p a ra g ra p h goes on to s a y , "D rs. 19 S te lim a n , a husband and w ife team from New York, were 20 in troduced as ep id em io lo g ical ex p e rts and proceeded to 21 c o lla b o r a te E p s t e i n 's c h a rg e s ." Is t h a t w hat I t says? 22 A T h a t's what i t sa y s, 23 Q Then i t goes on to sa y in th e n e x t p a ra 24 g ra p h , "Congressman D asc h le, D em ocrat, S outh D akota, see 25 a t ta c h e d news r e l e a s e , w ent a f t e r Dow, a s d id E p s te in . J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l They b o th s a id Dow had done a s tu d y in *77"' 78 o f th e wives of 300 2 ,4 ,5 -T w orkers and have never published the r e s u lts - - ch arg in g a 'co v eru p . ni T h a t's what th a t says, right? A T h at's what th a t says, Q The n e x t p a ra g ra p h s t a t e s , "The h e a rin g s V wound up w ith a parade of Vietnam v e te ra n s ta k in g tu rn s d e s c rib in g the h o rro rs th a t have b e fa lle n them and th e ir fam ilies since being exposed to Agent Orange," rig h t? A R ight. Q The l a s t p a ra g ra p h s t a t e s , " A d d itio n a l h e a rin g s w i l l be s c h e d u le d . There was n o th in g on 20/20 la s t n ig h t," T h at's what th a t says, i s n 't th a t rig h t? A Yes. Q Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' D eposition E x h ib it #94 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8324055), ask you to look a t th a t, s ir .- D octor, P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #94 is a fo u r-p a g e docum ent, a g a in , a u th o re d by R. M. S c o t t , d ated August 4 , 1980, su b je c t being N itro H ealth Study Task F orce, Minutes of M eeting August 1, 1980, and i t ' s to the Task Force, including y o u rse lf, is th a t co rrect? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q And th e f i r s t ite m o f b u s in e s s is Mr. H o lzap fel r e t i r e d and C a lli s , D r. C a lli s , assumed the J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E I 1 chairm anship of the N itro H ealth Study Task Force, is 2 th at correct? 3 A T h at's c o rre c t. 4 Q And Mr. Gallcx^ay was a p p o in te d to r e 5 place S c o tt as the N itro r e p r e s e n ta tiv e , i s n 11 th a t rig h t7 6 A T h at's r ig h t. 7 Q A g ain , t h e r e 's made m ention o f th e 8 Sus kind S ta tu s in th is r e p o r t, on th e ep id e m io lo g ic a l 9 study, rig h t? 10 A R i g h t. 11 Q M o rb id ity ? 12 A R ig h t. 13 Q On page 2 o f P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it #54, 14 r e f e r e n c e is made to th e Zack S tudy where G affey i n d i 15 c a te s t h a t th e f i n a l r e p o r t i s b ein g w r i t t e n and sh o u ld l be re a d y w ith in two w eeks, and Dan Bishop pro p o sed to 17 have a p re s s r e l e a s e re a d y by Septem ber 1 o f 1980, i s 18 t h a t c o r r e c t? 19 A T h a t's c o r r e c t . 20 Q And was a p re s s r e l e a s e g iv en on t h a t 21 stu d y ? 22 A To th e v e ry b e s t o f my r e c o l l e c t i o n , 23 i t w as. 24 Q Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' 25 E x h ib it #142 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #234851), c o n s is tin g '\ l J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E o f two p ag es, a s k you to take a look a t t h a t . A O.K. Q P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #142 is a two-page document which is e n title d Press Query, and i t ' s dated 9/24/80, rig h t? A S orry, I c a n 't see a d ate. I t 's hard to r e a d . The d a te is p a r t i a l l y o b scu red th e r e . Q And the p erso n making th e qu ery was from a program c a lle d Speak Up America and a Marie Suzanne, is th at correct? A T h a t's what I wouldg ath er what i t say s n e x t to MR e p o rte r and M edia." Q And th e q u e s tio n was from NBC, r i g h t ? A I se e a r e f e r e n c e to NBC e n t e r t a i n ment program but I d o n 't see where i t says the q u estio n came from NBC. Q . The q u e s tio n i s , "NECe n te r ta in m e n t program is p la n n in g a segm ent on A gent Orange in n e x t two to th re e weeks and would lik e to in te v ie w a Monsanto spokesman or g e t a s ta te m e n t from us f o r use on a i r . " A T h at's what I see. Q And th e answ er was t h a t you d e c lin e d to provide spokesman fo r in te rv ie w , s t a t i n g th a t i t would be in a p p ro p ria te sin c e the s itu a tio n is in l i t i g a t i o n , and you o ffered to read an approved statem en t fo r use J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E 1 I.1 1 and i t was a c c e p te d and th e s ta te m e n t was a tta c h e d , r ig h t? 2 A R ight. 3 Q And t h i s would be th e s u b je c t m a tte r 4 on page 2 o f P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it #142, i s n ' t t h a t c o r r e c t? '5 A T h a t's c o r r e c t. 6 Q Now, l e t cnc a s k you t h i s , o f th e people 7 t h a t a r e on t h i s com m ittee, w hich o n e s , in c lu d in g your 8 s e l f , a r e e x p e rts on th e l i t e r a t u r e co n c e rn in g d io x in ? 9 A I c a n 't t e l l you w ho's an e x p e r t on 10 w h at. I can o n ly sp eak to w hat I know m y se lf. 11 Q A ll r i g h t . Do youc o n s id e r y o u r s e lf 12 e x p e r t on th e l i t e r a t u r e o f d io x in ? 13 A I'm a f r a i d I 'd have to a s k you to d e U f in e " e x p e r t" f o r me. 15 Q W ell, have youreview ed th e w o rld 16 l i t e r a t u r e ? 17 A A l l o f i t , n o . I h a v e n 't re a d e v e ry 18 a r t i c l e e v e r w r i t t e n on d io x in . I v e ry s e r i o u s l y dou b t 19 t h a t v e ry many peo p le h av e. T h e r e 's to o much o f i t . 20 Q W ell, do you co n sid er y o u rse lf what 21 we would say i s , you know, a man o f e x p e r t is e co n c e rn in g 22 t h i s l i t e r a t u r e ? i* 23 A I f y o u 'r e a s k in g me w h eth e r or n o t I 24 can u n d e rsta n d i t when I re a d i t , th e answ er is y e s . 25 Q Now, you a p p e a re d on s e v e r a l t e l e v i s i o n J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E l and ra d io media e v e n ts, r ig h t? A As a spokesman f o r M onsanto, y es. Q And you have r e i t e r a t e d to th e p u b lic th a t th e only th in g th e l i t e r a t u r e shows th a t d io x in w ill do is cause ch lo ra c n e , i s n 't th a t c o rre c t? A As a lo n g -te rm h e a lth e f f e c t , y e s , and vt h a t 's based on a c o n s id e r a b le volume o f l i t e r a t u r e . Q Would you t e l l me w hat l i t e r a t u r e supports th a t position? A I th in k one o f the most re c e n t is the AMA C o u n cil on S c i e n t i f i c A f f a ir s w hich summ arizes th e s i t u a t i o n v e ry w e ll and made t h a t s ta te m e n t. I t a l s o called fo r ad d itio n al study to id e n tify any ad d itio n a l e f f e c ts which a re p re s e n tly unknown. Q O.K. And t h a t stu d y came o u t when, s i r ? A I'm n o t sure o f th e d a te . I t would have been probably w ithin the la s t year or so. I d o n 't have a copy b e fo re me, so I d o n 't know e x a c tl y w hat d a te it carries. Q Can you g iv e me some o th e r a r t i c l e s th at substantiate th at position. A I 'm n o t c a r r y in g a b ib lio g ra p h y in my h e a d , I can go back to my f i l e s and g iv e you an y number o f r e f e r e n c e s , i f t h a t 's w hat y o u 'd l i k e me to do. Q W e ll, you knew, a s a man w h o 's p u ttin g J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E lr th is f o r th to the p u b lic , I would th in k th a t you might have a t your f i n g e r t i p s a d d i t i o n a l a r t i c l e s , you know. A X would have the a r t i c l e s , t h a t 's c o r r e c t . As I s a i d , I have n o t com m itted th e a u th o rs to memory. I co n cern m yself more w ith the c o n te n t of th e a r tic le and what s c ie n tific in fo rn atio n i t p resen ts, not \ who w ro te i t . Q W ell, you would co n sid er the SuskindZack m o rta lity ta b le a u th o rita tiv e fo r th a t p o s itio n , th a t a l l i t w ill cause is chloracne? A I ' d sa y i t s u p p o rts our p o s itio n on that subject, yes. Q And w e 'r e ta lk in g a l s o a b o u t th e AMA a rtic le , right? A Yes, I would co n sid er th a t a u th o r ita tiv e . Q Anything e ls e you can th in k of? A T h ere's a r a th e r good review of the s u b je c t based on many s c i e n t i f i c a r t i c l e s in C.E.N. News, I b e lie v e t h a t 's Chemical E n g in eerin g News, and th a t was a Ju n e , 1983, a r t i c l e . I'm n o t su re o f th e e x a c t d a t e . I t may have been J u n e '6 o r e a r l y June o f 1983. Q Of c o u r s e , t h a t 's an in d u s tr y p u b lic a t io n , is n 't it? A Sure, but i t carries fa c t. MR. PRATT: O ff th e r e c o r d . J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E F ' ...BA #r# < 1 .< 1 2 3 4" 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 . 21 22 23 24 25 'i (Whereupon d is c u s s io n was had o ff the re c o rd .) Q (By Mr. P r a t t ) Can you th in k o f any other a rtic le s th a t are au th o rita tiv e to th a t position? A As I s a i d , I co u ld go back to my f i l e s and p u ll out any number o f such a r t i c l e s and r e i t e r a t e , V but I concern m yself w ith the content of the a r tic le , w hat in fo rm a tio n i t conveys to me. Q Now, going back to th e 1953 a r t i c l e or stu d y by S uskind, a r e you f a m ilia r w ith th a t study? A I'm aware th a t i t was done. I have in fo rm a tio n on i t , b u t n o t in f r o n t o f me h e r e . Q Those 37 p eo p le a r e th e b a s is - - Are those 37 people th a t were s tu d ie d the b a s is f o r Monsanto saying th a t no long-term h e a lth e ffe c ts from dio x in is evident other than chloracne? A . They a re only a p a rt of th a t b a s is . Q What e ls e is the b a s is? A A dditional stu d ie s th a t have been re ported. For ej^m ple, Seveso in cid en t. Q O.K. A And t h a t h a s n 't been a s long a s o u rs , b u t t h e r e 's now seven y e a rs an d no lo n g -te rm h e a lth e ffe c ts have been id e n tifie d to th is period of tim e. We a r e w a itin g t o h e a r from D r. S uskind % t h i r d - y e a r s tu d y . JAME5 MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 1 tX '1 2 3 ,4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 U 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q you know. That would be number 3, Seveso and, A Oh, y e s. O.K. T h a t's one, c e r t a i n l y one o f th e b e s t o p p o rtu n itie s to look a t a volume of p e o p le . Some 37,000 p eo p le in v o lv e d in S eveso. Q And would th e m o r ta l ity t a b l e , stu d y by Suskind and Zack, be a ls o -- A That would c e r ta in ly help to s u b s ta n tia te th at position. Q Anything else ? A S p ecific a r t i c l e s , is th a t what you're asking? Q Yes. A As I s a i d , I 'd have to go back to my f i l e s and see w h at's th e re . I do not c a rry a b ib lio g rap h y in my mind. Q . But b a s ic a lly , th en , M onsanto's p o sitio n i s , o f c o u r s e , b ased on th e 1953 s tu d y of th e 37 o r 38 in d iv i d u a ls , b ased on th e l i t e r a t u r e on S ev eso , based on th e m o r t a l i t y ta b le s tu d y o f Suskind and Z ack, Mon- santo has concluded th a t the only long-term e ffe c ts of dioxin is chloracne, rig h t? A T h at's p a rt of what led u s to th a t p o sitio n , yes. There is a d d itio n a l lite r a tu r e in ra th e r la rg e volume th a t would a ls o s u b s ta n tia te th a t p o s itio n . 1 1 JA M E 5 MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E i: f1 Q Would i t be f a i r to sa y t h e r e 's sub 2 s t a n t i a l l i t e r a t u r e on o th e r e x p lo sio n s and o th e r e x 3 posures th a t d iffe r w ith th a t opinion? 4 A There have been some s u b s ta n tia te d 5 su g g e stio n s o f o th e r h e a lth e f f e c t s , b u t when those 6 stu d ies were subm itted to c r i t i c a l review , defects in 7 the study form at, the population se le c te d , the co n tro l 8 group s e le c te d , were found; and, th e re fo re , the study 9 could not be considered as being conclusive. 10 Q Can you t e l l me what th o se s tu d ie s were? 11 A W ell, therm s one in p a r t i c u l a r by 12 Ward t h a t su g g e ste d im m unological d e f e c t , and Ward has 13 s a i d h im s e lf th e s tu d y was flaw ed in t h a t h is c o n t r o l 14 group was n o t p r o p e r ly s e l e c t e d . 15 Q T h a t's th e fe llo w t h a t d id the immuno 16 l o g i c a l work on C o a lite ? 17 A X b e lie v e t h a t 's where i t was done, y e s , 18 Q Which was r e c e n t l y in th e news, r i g h t ? 19 A I t c e r t a i n l y w as. 20 Q A nything e l s e , any o th e r a r t i c l e s th a t 21 you sa y th e s e s tu d i e s a r e in v a lid ? 22 A A gpin, I ' d have to go back to my 23 l i t e r a t u r e and p u ll th o se o u t. I'm n o t su re j u s t w hat 24 e v e ry one o f th o se I s . I t ' s a r a th e r la rg e f o ld e r and 25 i t ' s n o t som ething you can commit to memory r i g h t o f f th e J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E top o f jour head . Q fend you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #143 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #234905), ask ycu to take a look a t th a t. This E x h ib it #143, pages 2 through 9, a re ra d io and te le v is io n appearance by y o u rse lf, i s n 't \ that correct? A T h a t's c o r r e c t. I might acd th a t page 6 is il l e g i b l e and I c a n 't be sure what i t sa y s. Q And what y o u 're sa y in g g e n e r a lly in these appearances, y o u 're ta lk in g about the Suskind and Zack m o r ta lity stu d y , a re you not? A The t o t a l p la n t m o r ta l ity s tu d y , y es. T hat was th e second o f tv?o s tu d ie s o f m o r ta l ity . Q That would have been the one a f t e r th e one in J.O .M .? A Yes. Q T hat would have been th e one w ith 950 subjects in it? A I'm not sure p re c ise ly what the to ta l number i s o f f th e to p o f my h ea d , b u t I know i t r e p o r ts on 58 d ea th s. Q The second s tu d y , th e one t h a t I d o n 't have a copy of a t th e p re s e n t tim e, is th e one w ith 58 dead ex-em ployees? J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E A R ight. Q How m a y liv e em ployees were th e su b je ct of th a t m o rta lity tab le study? A There"s no such th in g as a liv e person in a m o rta lity study. Q In o th e r w ords, w hat was s tu d ie d was '58 d e a th s, r ig h t? A R ig h t. What w ere th e cau ses o f d e a th , how do th e y r e l a t e to w hat would be ex p e cte d in term s o f numbers and c a u ses. Q And t h a t 's from 1955 ' t i l when? A Up to th e c u t o f f d a te o f t h a t s tu d y , w hich would have been when i t ' s done, and I'm n o t su re of what th a t date is because I d o n 't have a copy of the stu d y b e fo re me, b u t i t , o b v io u sly , would have been b e fo re O ctober o f 1980 when a l l o f t h i s was r e p o r te d . Q You know a n y th in g a b o u t th e p r o to c o l fo r th a t study? A I 'd have to look a t the study again to t e l l yu th a t. Q That was th e one done by G affey, I guess? A W ell, Zack works fo r Dr. G affey and an y th in g th a t went o u t of h is departm ent would c e r ta in ly have to have his approval and review . Q And co u ld you j u s t summarize w hat th e J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E L fin d in g s t h a t you gave to th e news media p re se n te d and what the fin d in g s were of th a t study. A The cau ses o f d e a th f o r a l l persons who have been employed a t th e Monsanto p la n t from 1955 u n t i l th e c u to f f d a te o f the stu d y were rev iew ed . They were re la te d to the causes cf death and the numbers. T his was compared to a s ta n d a rd p o p u la tio n which would g iv e you s t a t i s t i c s t e l l i n g you hew many peo p le you would have expected to die out of a population th a t s iz e and what causes of d eath you would have expected to se e . S t a t i s t i c a l l y these numbers a re analyzed one a g a i n s t th e o th e r and a d e te rm in a tio n is made a s to whether or not th ere is sig n ific an c e in any d ifferen ces seen. This study rep o rted th a t th ere were no s ig n if ic a n t d iffe re n c e s in e ith e r the number of deaths experienced or in the causes of those deaths. Q And w hat c a u se s w ere s p e c i f i c a l l y r e ferre d to? A I would have to look a t the stu d y to answ er t h a t q u e s tio n . I do n o t have i t b e f o r e me. Q You s t a t e h e r e , r e l a t e d to c a n c e r, nervous system , c irc u la to ry system , re s p ira to ry system or the d ig estiv e system . A T h a t's r i g h t . We d i d n 't se e an y e x c e ss d e a th s in t h a t a r e a . T hat d o e s n 't t e l l me w hat th e c a u se s J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E -- ---- f -- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 * 22 23 24 25 of death were. (Whereupon a s h o r t re c e s s was tak en , a f t e r which the follow ing proceedings were h e ld .) Q (By Mr. P r a t t ) Hand you w hat*s bean marked P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it #144 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n \ #232202), and ask you to take a ink a t th a t, s i r . P la in tiffs * E x h ib it #144 is authored by W illiam R. G affey and i t * s to G. Roush, J r . , d a te d February 6, 1981, and the su b je c t m atter is Dr. Suskind and N itr o and Dr. M oses, and you*re a p erso n who would have gotten a copy of th is , rig h t? A R ight. Q And i t r e i t e r a t e s a te lp h o n e c o n v e r s a tio n between Gaffey and Dr. Suskincl, isn * t th a t c o rre c t? A That*s r ig h t. Q . C oncerning M arion Moses* p r e lim in a r y f in d in g s on th e Mt. S in a i N itr o S tu d y , r ig h t? A I don*t see any m ention of Mt. S in a i, n o r do I se e th e name M arion. I see a Dr. M oses. Q You know Dr. M oses, don' t you? A . Personally? Q Yes. A No, we have n o tm et. Q You know w hat Dr. M oses1 f i r s t name ic ? J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 12 A The Dr. Moses a t Mt. S in a i, who is a t Mt. S in a i, is Iferio n . X presume t h a t 's what he means, b u t he d o e s n 't say so in th a t document. Q F i r s t two pai'agraphs s t a t e , "x ta lk e d on th e 'phone w ith D r. Sus k in d a b o u t Dr. M oses' upcoming dog and pony show a t N itr o . He say s t h a t we a re o v e r r e a c t i n g and t h a t t h i s is the same p r e s e n ta tio n w hich he h e a rd h e r g iv e (a) in Rome l a s t O ctober and (b) a t a VA m eeting y e s te r d a y . He ta lk e d w ith h er a b o u t th e se p relim inary fin d in g s." T h at's w hat's sta ted in the f i r s t paragraph, rig h t? A R ight. Q The second p a ra g ra p h he t e l l s G affey th a t s h e 'll re p o rt, (a) th a t chloracne s t i l l e x ists in some men; (b) t h a t th e re i s an e x c e ss o f t r i g l y c e r i d e s which is c o rre la te d w ith le v e l o f previous exposure. She d eterm in ed le v e ls of ex p o su re by a s k in g th e men a t the tim e th ey were exam ined. She has no in fo rm a tio n (says Suskind) on d u ra tio n o r recen cy o f ex p o su re; P ara g rap h goes on to sa y t h a t S u sk in d say s th e e le v a te d t r i g ly c e rid e s a re no news because th e y tu rn e d up in th e Seveso Incid en t and a lso occurred w ith exposure to other sub s ta n c e s , such as PCB's and p e n ta . I s th a t w hat I t says? A T h at's what i t says, Q Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E E x h ib it #145 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8324311). (Whereupon d is c u s s io n was had o f f tbe re c o rd .) Q (By Mr. P r a t t ) L e t me hand you in a d d itio n to the previous document, P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #146 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #232235), E x h ib it #147 \ (M onsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #232236), E x h ib it #14$ (Mon sa n to i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #8326531) and E x h ib it #151 (Hon- s a n t o i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #232305). Why d o n 't you ta k e a look a t those. P la in tif f s ' E x h ib its 145, 146, 147, 149, 151 d e a l g e n e r a lly w ith th e N a tio n a l I n s t i t u t e f o r O ccupational S a fe ty a nd H ealth s d e s ire to g e t c e r ta in reco rd s from Monsanto, i s n 't th a t c o rre c t? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q And, s p e c if ic a lly , the person re q u e stin g them was a P a t r i c i a A. H onchar, Ph. 0 . o f NIOSH in C in cin n ati, is th at correct? A I'm not sure where s h e 's from, b u t, y e s , t h a t 's her name. Q What documents was she r e q u e s tin g , s ir ? A I th in k those are the ones th a t are m entioned in th e com m unications: M edical re c o rd s , work h is to rie s , production records. Q And w hat was th e purpose th e y gave f o r J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 1 re q u e s tin g those documents? 2 A W ellf I 'd have to go back through a l l 3 th ese to be sure I could t e l l you th a t. 4 Q Was i t to e s t a b l i s h an in d u stry -w id e 5 r e g i s t r y on 2 ,4 ,5 -,T w orkers? 6 A An in d u s try -w id e r e g i s t r y o f w orkers 7 exposed to dioxin isomer contam inated m a te ria ls. 8 Q And do you have any knowledge as to 9 w hether or n o t Dr. Honchar d id in f a c t g e t the documents 10 th a t she re q u e ste d ? 11 A I'm n o t s u re w hat th e f i n a l outcome 12 o f t h a t was s in c e I w a s n 't p e r s o n a lly in v o lv e d in doing 13 a n y th in g w ith i t . I would e x p e c t i f th e ag reem en t was 14 re a c h e d , t h a t th o se re c o rd s w ere made a v a ila b le so th e 15 in fo rm a tio n n e c e a a ry co u ld be d ev elo p ed . 16 Q O.K. Now, D r. Moses t e s t i f i e d in 17 th e V ete ra n s A d m in is tra tio n A d v iso ry Committee on h e a lth 18 r e l a t e d e f f e c t s o f h e r b i c i d e s , i s n ' t t h a t c o r r e c t ? 19 A I d o n 't know. I d o n 't se e a n y th in g in 20 f r o n t o f me to sa y so and I w a s n 't t h e r e . 21 Q l e t me hand you E x h ib it #148 (Monsanto 22 i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #232246), s i r . 23 P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #148 has a co v er 24 l e t t e r from Dan R. B ishop to th e members o f th e N itr o 25 H e a lth S tu d y Task F o rc e , d a te d A p r i l 2 0 , 1981, i s n ' t t h a t J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G - S E R V I C E correct? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q I t says in the f i r s t paragraph, "E nclosed a r e e x e rp ts from th e p ro ceed in g s o f the VA's A dvisory Committee on H ea lth -R elate d E ffe c ts o f H erbi cid es (seventh m eeting February 4, 1981) plus the agenda \ f o r th e n e x t m eetin g sc h ed u le d f o r May 5 ." I s n ' t th a t what i t says in the f i r s t one? A That*s c o rre c t. Q I t a lso s ta te s inthe second paragraph, " I have in c lu d e d a l l o f D r. M arion Moses* te stim o n y which covers her 'fin d in g s ' to date of the N itro H ealth Study," i s n 't th a t rig h t? A T h at's rig h t. Q Then pages 2 th ro u g h 22 s e t f o r t h h e r testim ony, I s n 't th a t rig h t? A . I read th a t more as a p r e s e n ta tio n than testim ony under oath. Q A t the bottom of page 6 and a t the top o f page 7 she s t a t e s , "T hese a r e Monsanto Chem ical Com pany w orkers in N i t r o , West V ir g in ia . And we have a l s o s tu d ie d a n o th e r group o f w orkers in v o lv ed in th e manu fa c tu re of 2,4,5-T and 2,4-D , and these are Vertac Chemical Company workers in Jacksonville, Arkansas." I s n 't that what i t says? J A M E 5 MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E i A T h at's what i t says. Q Then a t th e bottom o f page 11 and th en page 12 down to l i n e 9 i t s t a t e s , "S o , t h i s i s j u s t to s o r t o f s e t th e scene because I am g o in g to show you some d a ta now In w hich we looked a t I 'm j u s t g o in g to give you th e b io ch em ist, the liv e r fu n c tio n te s ts and the \ lip id s because th is Is something everybody is in te re ste d in . C h o le s te r o l o r t r i g l y c e r i d e s we knew have been r e ported to be abnorm al. L iver fu n ctio n te s ts are e x tra o r d i n a r i l y im p o rta n t, and I'm go in g to show you some f re q u e n c ie s o f a b n o r m a litie s b ased on th e se groups and based on w h eth er or n o t th e y e v e r had c h lo r a c n e ." T h a t's what th a t area of testim ony says, rig h t? A R ight. Q Then on page 17 o f P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #148, lin e 5 s t a t e s , "O.K. What th is r e p re s e n ts h e re is t h a t 71 p e o p le .o f th e 226 t h a t we saw had c u r r e n t e v id e n c e o f c h lo ra c n e . H alf o f th e p eo p le t h a t we saw had c h lo ra c n e c u r r e n t l y o r had had i t a t some tim e in th e p a s t . Now, th is d ir e c tly answers the gentlem an's qu estio n in the back. Of th e p e o p le t h a t we saw, h a l f o f them had had t h e i r c h lo ra cn e more than 20 y e a r s . This is based on a sk in g them hew lo n g th e y had had I t . So i t i s v e r y p e r s i s t e n t . " Then s k ip p in g down to l i n e 18, " I p u t c h o l e s t e r o l on h e re n o t b ecau se we found an in c r e a s e d p re v a le n c e o f abnorm al J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 12 c h o l e s t e r o l , b u t because peo p le a r e go in g to w ant to know w hat we fo u n d . T h a t's th e o n ly re a s o n i t i s on h e re . SGPT and SGOT and GGT a r e a l l l i v e r f u n c tio n t e s t s and a re v ery , very im portant in th is . They a re here be cau se we d id f in d an in c re a s e p rev alan ced o f a b n o rm a litie s T h a t's w hat t h a t te stim o n y say s on page 17, r i g h t , s i r ? A Yes, Q On page 19 o f P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #148 a t th e top she s t a t e s , "For tr ig ly c e r id e s , you w ill see th a t r e la te d to ex p o su re, th e re was an in c re ase d prev a le n c e o f a b n o r m a litie s . The same i t goes f o r SGPT, SGOT and much, much more c l e a r l y in th e heavy exp osure group w ith GGT. I em p h asize, th e s e a r e a b n o rm a ls." T h at's what th a t says, i s n 't i t , s ir? A T h at's what i t says, Q On page 20 o f P l a i n t i f f s 'E x h ib it #148, lin e 14, she s t a t e s , "Xn term s o f c h lo ra c n e , th e SGOT and th e GGT, w hich a r e b o th l i v e r f u n c tio n t e s t s , w ere shown to be s i g n i f i c a n t l y h ig h e r in th e p eo p le who had chloracne as opposed to the people th a t d id n 't. The t r i g l y c e r i d e s w ere found to be s i g n i f i c a n t l y h ig h e r only in re la tio n sh ip chloracne but not in re la tio n sh ip to e x p o s u re ," And t h a t 's w hat t h a t s a y s , i s n ' t i t ? A Yes, i t does. Q Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E > 1 E x h ib it #150 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a t i o n #232273), a s k you 2 to take a look a t th a t. * j* 3 P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #150 is a two4' page document by W illiam R. G sffey, dated A p ril 27, 5 1981. The s u b je c t i s Dr. M oses' p ro g re ss r ^ o r t on th e 6 S e lik o ff S tudy, and you rece iv ed a copy of th a t, i s n 't 7 th at correct, sir? 8 A T h at's c o rre c t. 9 Q And, a p p a re n tly , i t ' s herre p o rt to 10 a group o f management and Union r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s a t N i t r o , 11 r i g h t ? 12 A I t ' s a r e p o r t o f t h a t . 13 Q ,0.IC. And a sy n o p sis o f t h a t i s 14 g e n e r a lly w hat was found in h e r te stim o n y b e fo re th e 15 VA, r i g h t ? 16 A They would a p p e a r to be s i m i l a r . 17 Q The f iv e item s t h a t G uffeyr e i t e r a t e s 18 i s , " 1 , C h lo racn e v e rs u s s e v e r i t y o f e x p o s u re . Those 19 w ith heavy ex p o su re had more c h lo ra c n e . 2 , C h lo racn e 20 v e rsu s h i r e d a te . Those h ir e d b e fo re 1950 had more 2! ch lo racn e than those h ire d l a t e r . 3 , T o tal c h o le s te ro l. 22 No a s s o c i a t i o n w ith ex p o su re o r c h lo ra c n e . 4 , SGPT and 23 GGT, S t a t i s t i c a l l y s i g n i f i c a n t a s s o c i a t i o n w ith c h l o r 24 a c n e . 5 , T r i g l y c e r i d e s . S t a t i s t i c a l l y s i g n i f i c a n t 25 a s s o c ia tio n w ith c h lo ra c n e ." T h a t's w hat she r e p o r te d to J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E I w T- j 't 1 2 3 '5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 f - . v i : 22 23 24 25 Monsato and th e Union r e p r e s e n ta tiv e s , r ig h t? A T h a t's Dr. G affcy's re p o rt of what she rep o rted . Q reported? That Gaffey* s r e p o r t of what she A R ight. Q You know w h eth er or n o t th e group t h a t she saw o r t h a t M t. S in a i saw, group o f people w ere in c lu d e d in th e same group t h a t Dr. S uskind saw? A S h e 's n ev e r p ro v id ed me w ith a l i s t of people she saw, so I c a n 't speak to th a t p o in t. Q Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #152 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #232333). This is a document, P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #152, i s a document from Dan R. B ish o p , d a te d Septem ber 24, 1981, su b je c t being Agent Orange, and i t ' s to the N itro H ealth Study Task F orce, is i t not? A C orrect. Q And in th e re i t s t a t e s t h a t th e W all S tre e t Journal reported to the S ecretary of H ealth and Human S e rv ic e s S ch w eik er, i t ' s s t a t e d t h a t th e r e was a li n k f o r A gent Orange t h a t a f f e c t e d many o f th e i l l n e s s e s th a t the veterans claim ed .to have. A Would you sa y t h a t a g a in . I d i d n 't follow you th e re . * l J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 15 MR. PRATT: Read i t b ack . (Whereupon th e r e p o r te r read back the preceding q u estio n .) A Yes, i t s ta te s th ere is a lin k to a v ariety of ailm ents. Q (By Mr. P r a t t ) 0,K . Hand you w h a t's been marked P la in tif f s * E x h ib it #153 (Monsanto i d e n t i f i c a tio n #8324396), and ask you to take a look a t th a t, s i r . This is a two-page document, th is being P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it #153, is a two-page document a u th o re d by Dan R. Bishop on F e b ru a ry 12, 1982, to members o f th e N itro H e a lth Study Task F o rc e , is i t n o t, and y o u 're a r e c ip ie n t of th a t document? A Yes. Q And i t say s in th e f i r s t p a ra g ra p h , "For p u r info rm atio n , the review w ith Dr. Suskind went v ery w e ll. H e's produced a v ery thorough, p ro fe ssio n a l stu d y which w ill prove v ery h e lp f u l." Did th a t have to do w ith h is tr ip to N itro where he talk ed to the in d iv id u a ls? A No. T h a t's mentioned la te r as s t i l l pending. ... .. Q As w h at, s i r ? A T h a t's mentionedla te r as s t i l l pending. Q O.K. Says in the t h i r d p arag rap h , J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E m r i 1 i i 2 3 5' 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 * V>. ;V V - 21 '' f^-22 -** *23 24 25 "Cnee i t 's been accepted fo r p u b lic a tio n (probably in six to e ig h t weeks) the follow ing re le a se schedule w ill apply: (1) N itro P lan t V is it. Dr. Suskind w ill p re- s e n t fin d in g s/c o n c lu sio n s to employees and answer q u estio n s." That's sta ted th e re , rig h t? A Yes. 1 Q " ( 2 ) P u b lic M e a s e , The fo llo w in g day (or as soon a f t e r the employee b rie fin g as p o ssib le ) Dr. Suskind w ill p resid e a t a bull-blow n press conference a t the U niversity of C in cin n ati. A ll m a terial, includ- in g th e news r e l e a s e , w i l l be on U n iv e r s ity l e t t e r h e a d , i . e . , i t w i l l be h is show, w ith Monsanto people th e re only as in te re ste d observers." T hat's what the second paragraph says, right? A Yes. Q Third paragraph, "Post-Suskind Re- le a s e . Once th e stu d y is made p u b lic , M onsanto would be fre e to p a r tic ip a te in follow up, lo c a l an g le in te r - view s. A t N itr o , David F r a z e r w ill be our spokesman. In S t. L o u is, i t should presum ably be D rs. T illm an and G affey." T hat's what th a t says, rig h t? A I t says, " i t should probably b e," b u t, yes. q " ( 4 ) Once th e s tu d y i s p u b lis h e d in a j o u r n a l , we w i l l be f r e e to su p p ly c o p ie s on r e q u e s t." 11 J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 13] (' 1 1 2 3 " it t , `r V 4 ; 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 9 `*-Vtl-' t *" \ ;0-.22' 23 24 25 And t h i s document i s d a te d F e b ru a ry 12 o f 1982, i s n ' t th at correct, sir? A T h at's c o rre c t. < Q And a s o f t h i s d a te t h a t s tu d y has not bean forthcom ing, has it? A Not to th e b e s t o f my knowledge i t has not been published. Q Is the N itro H ealth Study Task Force, is th at s t i l l in existence? A On a b a s is o f a s-n e e d e d th e membership waaLd be c a lle d to g e th e r , b u t we do no lo n g e r have r o u tin e ' m eetings. Q W ell, have you co n su lted w ith D r. S uskind a b o u t why t h i s s tu d y has n o t been p u b lish e d ? A No. I t ' s been Dr. R oush's t e r r i t o r y . Q H e'd be th e man to t e s t i f y a s to th a t? A He co u ld t e l l you w hat c o n ta c ts have been made t h e r e . I 'v e n o t p e r s o n a lly c o n ta c te d D r. S u sk in d to a s k th e s t a t u s o f I t . We t r y to l i m i t t h a t to one p a r tic u la r person making c o n ta c t r a th e r than b ad g er th e man w ith c a l l s from a n y number o f i n t e r e s t e d p arties. Q O.K. Hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #154 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #232390), s i r . - 1 J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E i: w . *' * 1 2 3 .. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 yv* ii 23 24 25 1l P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #154, pages 1 th ro u g h 5 , c o v e r page b e in g a document from R. M. Galloway, dated tferch 5, 1982, and th e su b je c t is N itro V is it - Dr, Sus k in d , and i t ' s to a l l th e members, i t looks lik e , of the N itro H ealth Study Task Force, is that correct? A T h at's c o rre c t. Q And is i t c l e a r to you from pages 2 through 4 th a t Monsanto is o rc h e s tra tin g the e n tire p re s s c o n fe re n c e b u s in e s s on t h a t s tu d y t h a t 's n o t y e t in existence? A No, t h a t 's n o t c l e a r to me a t a l l .f r o m th is. Q N e ll, l e t 's look a t page 2. F ir s t p a r t o f th e page i t s a y s , "Who w i l l A t t e n d ? d o e s n 't i t ? A I t does. Q . N ext h ea d in g i s , "Hew W ill P a r t i c i p a n t s be C o n tacted ?", does i t n o t? A I t does. Q N ext heading i s , "Where to Hold the M eeting?", does I t not? A I t does. Q Next one says on page 2 , "Where w i l l Press C onferm e be H eld?", does I t not? A I t does. J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E 13 -W , (! I /I r1 1 2 3 ' 1 s- i. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 - - 20 _ .21 ( : t. >-'-22 23 24 25 Q And M onsanto was g iv en d a ta on th e progress of his study, i s n 't th a t correct? A M onsanto was shown ta b u la tio n s o f h is da t a . . Q O.K. And you had p e o p le , such a s G affey and Zack, who w ere in c lo s e c o n ta c t w ith him v bn th ese s tu d ie s , i s n 't th a t c o rre c t? A They'd have clo se c o n ta c t w ith him p rim a rily on th e ir m o rta lity s tu d ie s . Q Did you knew t h a t Dr. S u sk in d was under c o n tra c t to Monsanto o rg a n iz a tio n in th is study? A He was u n d er c o n t r a c t f o r th e s tu d y as a re p re se n ta tiv e of Environm ental H ealth I n s titu te a t the U niversity of C incinnati. Q You e v e r se e n a copy o f t h a t c o n tr a c t? A I believe I have. Q . L et me hand you P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #96 (Monsanto id e n tif ic a tio n #8331250), P la in t if f s ' E x h ib it #96 is a copy of th a t contract^ co n sistin g of three pages, is n 't th a t rig h t, sir7 A I'm not sure what i t i s . I 'v e never seen th is before. Q And i t s e t s f o r t h san e o f th e term s o f th a t document, d o e s n 't i t ? *\ . J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E /i . 13 '/t A Apparently so. Q For in s ta n c e , on page 2 , item 3 , i t s t a t e s , "Monsanto w ill provide the P rin c ip a l I n v e s ti g a to r w ith a l l data from death c e r t i f i c a t e s , h o s p ita l and o th er c l i n i c a l reco rd s Monsanto h ss reg ard in g the h e a lth s t a t u s o f p a s t and p r e s e n t em ployees o f Mon\ s a n t o 's p la n t a t N itr o , West V ir g in ia , who w ere exposed to th e 2 ,4 ,5 -T p ro cess from 1948 to 1969 and to th e m a te ria ls in v o lv ed in the 1949 runaway r e a c tio n d escrib ed in the attach ed p ro to co l." T h at's what th a t says? A Yes. Q Did Monsanto p ick the people th a t would be in th a t stu d y or the deceased persons? A I c a n 't answer th a t, I w asn't involved. Q Who w ere th e p eo p le t h a t would be i n volved? A - I'm n o t s u re who i t would b e. S in ce I was n o t p a r ty to t h i s , I c a n 't s a y who d id w h at. Q Paragraph 4, "Monsanto w ill a ls o provide th e P rin c ip a l In v e s tig a to r w ith co p ies o f a l l work h i s to rie s and m edical records i t has fo r the in d iv id u als covered by the study," rig h t? A I t says th a t. | Q A lso s t a t e s in th e re in paragraph '4 th a t Monsanto is to be provided a p relim in ary re p o rt of J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E i < *w ,r -K 7 the findings of the study upon com pletion of a proper 2 an aly sis of the d ata, is th a t correct? 3 A I'm try in g to fin d where- y o u 're re a d in g . v7:;c;i 4'; i %t :% *i , 6 Q I t 's r i g h t on down i n 4.- . A Yes. Q Is th a t what th a t says? 7 A T h at's what i t says. 8 | Q Has M onsanto to d a te b een , to your 9! 70 ! 17 1 72 13 , 74 75 76 17 78 79 20 i \ *4 . 2'1 - i 22 23 24 25 knowledge, been provided a p relim in ary rep o rt? A I 'v e rut: se en a n y th in g o th e r th an ta b u la tio n s of data which are produced in s lid e s to M o n san to 's em ployees some tim e a g o . Q Paragraph 6, "The a d m in istra tiv e a sp e c ts o f th is agreem ent fo r Monsanto s h a ll be under th e d ir e c tio n o f Dr. George Roush." T h a t's what number 6 says, right? A D r. George Roush, Q Paragraph 7, Suskind agrees to te s tif y fo r a period of fiv e years a f te r the study any place Monsanto wants him to t e s t i f y and to give a f f i d a v i t s they want, i s n 't th a t co rrect? A Yes. Q And you, s i r , a r e t e l l i n g t h i s J u ry th a t Dr. Suskind is independent in h is dealin g s w ith M onsanto, is th a t rig h t? \ J A M E S M A Y R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E 13 ?9m ! , . 'i """ f* i 2 3 4r f ' 51. ** 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 : 15 16 17 18 19 20 1 *ys:.V-*;V,,.,,-ai . * V?f ^ i 2 2 23 24 25 '1 A T ha^s pointed out very adequately i n item 5 on t h i s same p a p e r. MR. PRATT; T h a t's a l l I h av e. L e t me s t a t e f o r th e r e c o r d t h a t we had sc h e d u le d to d ay Ja c k G a r r e t t , and we have j u s t fin ish e d a l i t t l e a f te r noon w ith the testim ony o f Dr. E rnie T illm an, which to o k a h a l f day lo n g e r th an we th o u g h t, and t h a t we w ere fo rc e d to c a n c e l G a r r e tt a t th is tim e, the reason being th a t the docum ents w hich were s e n t o u t to me on th a t p a rtic u la r depo sitio n w eren 't in the m ail t h a t I g o t; so we would l i k e to s e t him a t a n o th e r tim e . I guess w hat we can do i s j u s t c o n tin u e on w ith th e p r e s e n t s c h e d u le . Tomorrow we have - - you have i t b e fo re you. Who do we have? MR. LOVE: Tomorrow we have sc h e d u le d Mr. F erd in an d Z ie n ty a t 9 :0 0 A.M. and Mr. M. T. W hite a t 1:00 P .M ., and I would i n d ic a te to you th a t those fo lk s a re not em ployees o f M onsanto Company an d w i l l have to be subpoenaed, b u t p u rs u a n t to my l e t t e r addressed to you June 15, 1983, scheduling them fo r th is tim e, I in d ic ate! to you they ! JA M ES MAY R E P O R TIN G SER VIC E 1 had a g re e d to a llo w me to a c c e p t s e rv ic e fo r w itness subpoenas fo r th e ir appearance, b u t I su g g est you serv e them a t th e time and p la c e o f th e d e p o s itio n and we111 have them here. (Whereupon d is c u s s io n was had o ff the reco rd .) MR. LOVE; I would in d ic a te to you a l s o t h a t Ja c k G a r r e t t 's kd e p o s itio n was sch ed u led f o r to d ay a t 9:00 A.M. and scheduled fo r a f u l l day, and h e 's the D ir e c to r o f I n d u s t r i a l H ygiene f o r Mon s a n to Company in S t. L o u is, and h e , con s e q u e n tly , is a v e ry busy p e rso n . We spent s u b s ta n tia l period of time prep arin g him fo r h is d e p o s itio n on y e s te rd a y , and th is morning I was ad v ise d t h a t you were n o t prepared to take h is d ep o sitio n due to lack o f d e liv e ry of documents from your o ffic e in C h a rle s to n and to a d v is e Mr. G a r r e tt t h a t h is d e p o s itio n was c a n c e lle d . J u s t f o r the purpose of the re c o rd , he was n o t happy a b o u t t h a t . He i s a v e ry b usy man and s e t asid e both yesterd ay and today fo r the purposes of h is d ep o sitio n . I understand J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E th a t th ese problems a r is e w ith regard to docum ents. We* 11 do th e b e s t v?e can in term s of su p p ly in g him a t a l a t e r d a te , b u t in the fu tu re i f such a r i s e s , I would a p p r e c ia te i t i f you would g iv e us more i advance n o tic e a n d , p e rh a p s, we can cause these in d iv id u a ls le s s d if f ic u lty in terms of th e ir scheduling and ours. MR. FRATT; Very good. Dr. E rnest Tillm an J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E > 1 STATE OF ILLINOIS ) \ gg ^ 2 COUNTY OF MADISON ) 3 . 4 I , M. JOY SPRINGER, a N o tary P u b lic , d u ly 5 commissioned and q u a lifie d in and fo r th e County of 6 M adison, S ta te of I l l i n o i s , do hereby c e r tif y th a t 7 v` p u rs u a n t t o n o tic e came b e fo re me on June 27 and 8 June 28, 1983, a t th e R ad isso n H o te l, Room 215, 9 th 9 S tre e t and Convention P laza, S t. L ouis, M issouri, 10 DR, ERNEST TILLMAN, who was by me d u ly sworn to 11 t e s t i f y t o th e t r u t h and n o th in g b u t th e t r u t h o f 12 h i s knowledge to u c h in g and c o n c e rn in g th e m a tte rs 13 i n c o n tro v e rs y in t h i s c a s e ; t h a t he was th ereu p o n 14 c a r e f u l l y examined upon o a th , and h is ex a m in a tio n 15 red u ce d to w r i tin g un d er my s u p e r v is io n ; t h a t th e 16 d e p o s itio n i s a tr u e re c o rd o f th e te stim o n y g iv e n 17 by th e w itn e s s ; and s ig n a tu r e o f th e w itn e s s was n o t 18 wa iv e d . 19 I FURTHER CERTIFY t h a t I am n e i t h e r 20 a tto r n e y nor co u n sel fo r nor r e la te d to nor employed 2 ^ by and o f the p a rtie s to the a c tio n in which th is 22 d e p o s itio n i s ta k e n ; and f u r t h e r , t h a t I am n o t a 23 r e l a t i v e o r em ployee o f an y a t t o r n e y o r c o u n s e l em- a 24 ployed by th e p a r t i e s h e r e to , o r f i n a n c i a l l y I n te r e s te d 25 In th e a c t i o n . * l J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have h e re u n to s e t my hand and a f f i x e d my n o t a r i a l s e a l on t h i s day of Ju ly , 1983. N otary Public w ithin and fo r the County of M adison, S ta te of I l l i n o i s . J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E ?