Document zQwzvd4pQOb8ygYkQRG084z3

168 1 IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE UNITED STATES 2 FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS BEAUMONT DIVISION CECIL SCOTT, ET AL V . C.A. NO. B-84-1103-CA MONSANTO COMPANY a 9 1 0 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF 11 PAUL GEORGE BENIGNUS 12 VOLUME II 13 14 15 16 17 April 21, 1987 18 Gilpin, Pohl & Bennett 1300 Post Oak Boulevard, 24th Floor 19 Houston, Texas 20 21 22 2 3 Cheryll K. LeFevers Texas CSR No. 1690/Notary Public 2 4 Nell McCallua & Associates 2900 Snith, Suite 104 25 Houston, Texas 77006 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024375 ] h^ L APPEARANCES: 2 3 For the Plaintiffs: 4 DAVID M. r, AC Rif WILLIAM LTTTI.K `5 Gilpin, P o h L & Bennett 13 0 0 Post. Oak Boulevard, 24th F ] oo r 6 H o u a t. o n , Texan 77066 7 For the Defendant: 0 WALT HR J. CRAWFORD, JR. 9 CHERYL D. OLKSRN Wells, Peyton, Beard, Greenberg I 0 Hunt & Crawford Petroleum Building 1 l P.0. Box 3708 Beaumont, Texas 77704 1. 2 1 3 The Videoqraphor: I. 4 .TOHNNA COALSON Executive Services Group 1. 5 P.O. Box 890306 Houston, Texas 77289-0306 16 L7 1B 19 20 21 22 22 24 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024376 I /U I_ VLdeotdp>(l deposit Lon o f PAUL. GEORGK 2 BENIGNUS, Volume T T , a witness called by the 3 Plaintiffs, on April 71, 19B7, at the of-fie os <3 f 4 Gilpin, P o h 1 & Hennett, 1300 Post. Oak Boulevard, *5 7.4th Floor, Houston, Texas, c online no l n<j at 9:30 a . m . , 6 before Cheryl 1 K. I.eFevers, CSR No. 1690 and Notary 7 Public i. n and for the State of Texas, pursuant to fl Notice and Subpoena and the Federal Rules of Civil 9 Procedure. 10 I. I 12 t3 }4 15 If l7 1 fl L9 20 21 22 23 24 75 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024377 I rNDRX 2 3 WITNESS : PAUL GEORGE H P. NT GNUS 4 8 EXAMINATION RY: 6 M r . L ricey 7 8 9 1. 0 11 l2 13 1.4 18 16 17 18 ]9 20 21 72 23 24 7.8 ) /l PAGE L72 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024378 l / >. I- p_ C _R p_ J_ N G_ S 2 THR VTDKOGRAPHKH : We are now 3 continuing the deposition of Mr. Paul Penignus. The 4 time is 9:35 a . m . ?j 6 7 P A 111. GRORGR HRNJGNUS, 8 having been previously duly sworn,, testified as 9 f oI lows : L0 1 1 KXAMINATION H Y MR. I.ACRYt I 2 Q. Mr. Ren i. gnus, last night as we stopped your 1 3 deposition - - actually yesterday afternoon, T guess L 4 it wag, a little after 5:00, we went through a group 1 f> of d o c u a e n t. s by just, identifying number that. 1 l 6 wanted to have you review and see if you can help us 17 learn something about them. 18 Did you have a chance last night to 1 9 take a look at some of these documents to see what 1 2 0 warn interested in? 2 1 A . We looked at a 1 1 we had - - 2 2 Q- Okay. 2 3 A . -- w hirh was a large number. 2A Q - Okay. You did find most of them? 2 8 A . Oh, yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024379 1 /3 t Q Let me - i'vn hr i ed t o group these 2 together as we go t h r o u g h I. h e m 3 A. Right. 4 Q -- in cat egor.i e s , und 1 w a n t. t. o t. a i l< about 3 i ndiv idua l documents. The f 1rs t o n e i: 'd like to 6 show you is the document numbered 1 i> 19 through 1 S 2 8 7 a n d ask i. F. you c a n i d e n t i f y that document for me . 8 A . V e s. The subject, is "The A r odors." Th i s 9 lists the ArocLor compounds that were made. It 1 0 lists Swann Chemical at ~ - 1 he plant, is at Anniston, \ L Alabama. This is Swann Chemical. 1 2 So, that relates to the A r o c1o r s a1 l 3 Swann Chemical Company. l 4 Q . Okay. Can you tell the date of that, l S document from looking - - r think inside (in the first 1. 6 page, inside, there may be some in tor mat. ion on 1 7 that. 1 8 A. It. says 19 3 2. 19 Q. Okay. Now, this won Id have been a 2 0 document, then, produred by Swarm prior to its 2 1 purchase by Monsanto? 22 A. This is correct. . 2.3 Q. And nobody at. Monsanto would have actually 2 4 had direct, involvement, in preparing that particular 2 S document? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024380 14 L A . No . '?. Q. Except, to t he extent, those people became 3 Monsanto ampl oyees at ter they were acquired by 4 Monsanto? 5 A . R ight . 6 Q. Okay . 7 MR. CRAWKORJ)! Okay. T f you know, 8 Mr. Rani, gnus, about the employees. He's ask inq you 9 specifically about, that. l 0 THR WITNESS t I said it's correct. 1 1 MR. CKAWPORD: Okay. L 2 Q. (Ry Mr. r.acey) Now, with regard to the 1 3 information that's contained in that document., do I 4 you know anything about the source of the 1 f> information for what's in there? 16 A. Other than the sources from the Swann 1 7 Chemical Company. 18 Q. Nothing beyond that? 1 9 A. Nothing beyond that that I know of. 7.0 Q. Okay. bet me have that document back, and 21 we'll put that, in a stack over here that we've 7 2 Looked at. 7 3 1. e t io e n e x t. s h o w you the )) o c u m e n t. i S 0 0 7 4 through i S V 8 .iml ask i f you can identify t h a t 7 b d o c u m e n t. . NELL IVIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024381 1 !5 I A . RasentLa I. I y t h e same t h i n g . 2 Q Okay. Can you 1 e 1 .1 when that, one w a a 3 written? 4 A. 1934. IS Q. So, that, would be an updated version 6 A . Right. 7 Q. - - of the one we just, looked at ? 9 Also we i t t e n by Swann? 9 A . Correct. 1 0 Q. Frio r to i t. s anqu i a i t. i on by Monsanto? t l A . R i gh t . 1 2 Q And you don't know a riy t.h i ng about the l 3 source ot: the informa t i. o n <: onta innd in this 1 4 d o c. u e n t ? 15 A . No . 1 9 Q. Do you know whether or not these pieces of 1.7 literature were provided to anyone outside Swann? i n A. T would certainly think so. 19 Q. Okay. Now, Ln 1935 Swann was acquired by 7 0 Monsanto, correct? ? i h. Correct. 2 7. Q. Okay . Now, 1 e t. me just leave t. h i s ?. 3 d o c u in e n t., the one that's the 193 4 (locum e n t , there 7 4 f o r your t e v i e w; and 1e t re e show you now a d o c u m e n t 7.5 1 5 5 9 through 1590. And i. t * s g o t a number on it. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024382 1 /8 I Application Data 8 u I I e t i. n No. I? - l t 5 . 7. 'I' he firs 1. t h 1 n cj I want. t. o try to do is 3 Identify whe.re that document came Prom, Do you know 4 where that, document, would have: .... who won I d h.tvr 5 o r i </ i. n a t o d that document? 6 A. Monsanto Chemical Company. 7 Q And w a a that document the Monsanto version H o f the previous Swann d oc uments in terms of the 9 i n P o r m a t i o n i t containsd ? 3 0 A . That 's essentially correct., yes. l l Q Mow, do you know when that document was 1 7 proparnd ) 1 3 A . We 1 1 , T see a date here, 1945. l 4 Q Okay . That' s a da tfi 3 t.ara p on i. t ? 1 5 A . T t s a dal e stamp. 16 Q Okay . That Is not a copyright date like i 3 1 7 i n the Swann documents? 1 8 A . No . r t 1 a d i 1: Cerent. . The Swann documents 1 9 had a copyright, date. S o m e o n e stamped t. h i s , d a t e d 7 0 It June, 19 4 5 2 1 Q. And what, we c a n te'l'l from t h a t <1 a t e s 1. amp 2 2 1 3 that. 1: hat. at least, was Lit existence by J u n e o P 2 3 1 9 4 5 bee a vi a e a 3 vi n e , '45, date stamp is on i l? 2 4 A . I would a s au me 3 o. 7 5 Q. Unless somebody went, back with a dat e stamp NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024383 I// l to 9 [)ftC i f i. e a L t. y b a ok date it, that would bo true. 2 wouldn't it? 1 A. T would think ao. 4 Q . Now, do you have any idea of when that 5 <1 o o u in e n t was actually prepared, how much in advance h of June, 1 9 4 S ? 7 A . No, T don't. R Q. Okay. What group or department within 9 Mona a n t o would be responsible for producing ] 0 (loc.unents like that? 1 1 A . Thin " P" indicates the phosphate division. 1 ?. w h i. o h i s the inorganic division. 1 3 Q- That was the division you worked for with l 4 reqa rd t o - 1 f. A . later on. 1 f> Q . - - PCfl'a in the 1947 -] 7 A . Yeah . 1. H Q . - - and following period? 19 A . Yeah . 7 0 Q Bo, if: we see the letter " P" on a document, 2 t we know it came from the phosphate division, 2 2 correft.? 2 3 A . Well, t his one, since it's the only letter, 2 4 h h i s i a corrt-5c t . 2 b Q - Okay. And within that group -- is there a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024384 i. - ii I. par t L <: u I. a r q r o u p o r pa r t L c u L a r s p c i. a I. t y t: hat ' s 2 assigned the responsibi I it.y of actual jy preparing .3 documents of! this type? 4 A . Weil, Ibis - - this nee m s t o b e com i n q o u t 5 before my time, but i. t would be a pp Unable; so, l.' 1.1. 6 tinswer it. on that, basin. 7 Documents o f: this type are prepared by H people who ha v e assembled this t e c h n i c a J infornat ion 9 and have put It together in rough form. Then the 1 0 p rocedurc In usually to - not. in all cases -- but, l t l would think, writers of literature. And these 1 7 people would bo in the advertising department, not 13 n e r. e s :s a r i 1 y in e a n i n q w r i. t i n g ads, e t cetera, b u t 3 4 we'll have t tie to in thin department. They a re 15 writers. Tli o y put t h i. n into a final finished form, 1 6 and that gives rise to this, for example. l 7 Q. 8 o, y o u have people who are skilled in -1 8 in writing things that, make sense and are 19 understandable, who act.ua Lly put it in final form? 2 0 A . This is roTTp c l. , 2 l Q. What was Lire purpose of preparing 2 7 3 i t era t.ur e of t.ha t. a or t V 2 9 A . The pit r po s e of prep a. r i n q l i t e r a t u r e o t: t h i s 7 1 sor t was to distribute i t t o customers of t he 2 5 company who were buying the A roc tors, the subject of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024385 1 I9 t this, to ilissemi. n.itfi and d i s t: r i h u I: e i. nt'oniri t i o n t. o ?. these people. Thai, was the purpose. 3 Q . Okay. `jo, It was it e s L g n o d t o p r ov id e t o 4 customers? 5 A . Rssent i.a Hy , ye s . 6 Q. Okay. What's the relationship between 7 Monsanto Chemical. Company and Monsanto Company? T a notice that says "Mensanto Chemical Company" on it. 9 A . Oh , in later years the "Chemical" was 1 0 e 1 i m i n a t e d . That, is a .1 J l l Q 0 k a y . Now, le t m e show you another J 2 <1 o c u in e n t , 3 3 through S3 . And, in particular, I'm I 3 again in t r es ted in t r y i. ng ho deteriine whether or 1 4 not this is the same document, as the one that you l 5 have just looked .it or whether it's a different 1 f. d oniment . J 7 A. Well, without going through each page, it l 8 certainty appears to b e the same. 19 (j. Okay. Was the :i e some sequence that 2 0 Monsanto used in order to identify revised versions 2 1 of documents so, for example, when you were going to 2 2 give O Ilf! to a customer you c o u 1 d make sure you (j a v e 2 3 1 h e m the mo s t. current. one? 2 4 A . C do n r t know o f a. f o v m a 1. p r o c 15 d u r e s . These 2S were reissued when they ran out. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024386 i l) J l Q. Okay . A . That's e 3 a e n t. i a .1 .1 y the modus operandi . .1 Q. And t he only way you 0 out d get a now one is 4 if somebody did a new one and, hopeful]y, they would throw the oLd <3 nos away and have the news onoa ready ft to hand out when t. h e r e. was a new one, then? 7 A. Yes . H Q. Hut if 4 A. Now -- now, I am not certain. There are LO some numbers often i. n these things. I don't see 1 1 them now, but if .1 saw such a set of numbers -- l 2 sometimes there is an indication as to the number of i :i printings that, were made and perhaps some thing about l 4 the date, but F'm not sure of that. Those numbers 1 b often are confusing to we. l ft Q. Okay. Well., let me see - Let me took at 1 7 t his one j u s t a second and see if I can find the IB sort of thing you're talking about. 19 Wh er e do t.hos e numbers a ppear ? 2 0 Qsuaily at the end of the document? 2 1 A. I would think so. That's where T looked. 2 2 T didn't find any. 2:i Q, Okay. Well, 1 don't, find one on this one 2A either, bet me just give you another document. 2f> W e ' J 1 j u s t g o t. o another one he r e . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. STLCOPCB4024387 1Hi l Let; ma hand you Document 1537 through 2. 1 558, also labeled "App] irat.i on Data null ('tin 3 P-115," and ask you to take a Look: at; that. And, in 4 particular, I think on the next to last page of that 5 document, down at the lower left hand corner, there f. are Home nvmbera down there. 7 A . Y e 3 , t h i. a is the kind of thin# I was 8 looking for. 9 Q. What sort of things do those numbers stand l 0 for w i. t h i n Monsanto Company ? 1 5 A . 1 do not. know. l 2 0 . Okay . l 3 A . T d o n o t. k n o w . L 4 Q Can you t o L1 from that d o r. u m e n t that I've J 5 j uat. handed you whether it' s older or newer than t h e l fi two prev i o u s versions of (1 u J. 1 e t L it P - t L 5 that you' v e 1 7 looked at? 1 8 A . Offhand, no. They look very si M.i 1 a r to me . 19 Q. Well, is there any way you c o u L d rev LOW 20 the* and tall me which one is older and w h i c h one i s 2\ newer? 22 A . (No response) 2. \ Q. If there is any il i f: f e r e n c e . 2 4 A . I don't, see any di f f erence. '7.5 Q . Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024388 1 rt / t A . F 3i!fi no <t i. i: f; e r e n o e 2 Q Okay. I e t. me hand you another "Application 3 Data Bulletin P-115," numbered 1581 through 1605 - 4 and, aqain, on the last paqe there, down at the 5 lower left-hand aide, there's another series of 6 letters and numbers -- and ask you if you can, from 7 that, identify anything about it. 8 A. Here, I would say the numbers 8-47-71 may 9 mean August, '47, 1971. 1 0 Q . Well, that, doeiiri ' t make sense, though, does 1 t it, because there aren't 4 7 days i n August? 1 2 A . Oh , excuse me. No , T said 1947 . 13 Q Oh , 19 4 7? 1 4 A. Oh, n o. Wait a m i nut.e . Wa it. a minute. 15 T - - strike that. 16 Auqust., 194 7. What does the "7 1" l 7 mean? I don't know. 18 Q. I don't know. Hut. if you were qoinq to try 19 to date that, you would assume it's August, 1947? 20 A. Until 1 got mixed up with the number 71, 2 1 that I don't know what it means. 2 2 Q. Okay. Do yon have any idea, looking at 2 3 that code, when that document was produced? 24 A . I'm not. sure from this - - t. h i s code that - 2 5 I'm confused with the code, actually. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024389 i d ,i I. Q. Who at Mons.t ni. o would know a bo til: these code 7 numbers and how to identify when these various 3 documents were printed, if: anybody? 4 A . My best, q u e n s on t. h i s As someone in this 5 it e p a r t m e n t. I rnt:*rrnd to earlier, e a l L L t: 6 "adverti si nq department." or "literature department.." 7 Q You think they mig ht have a key to these 0 codes? 9 A . If thei e. i s one . t 0 0. Okay . 1 1 A . If t h e re i s one . I. 7. Q Now, Let m o show you some more copies of 13 t h1 sara e b u 1 1 e t i n The next n u m b e r is 1606 through l 4 16 3 4; and on t h i 3 one, I'd ask y o u, again, to look 1 at the. next to last, page and let me know whether or l 6 not you have any idea of what those letters and } 7 numbers stand for. l A . Yeah, I see this. 1 9 Q. Okay. What, do those letters and numbers 2 0 stand for? 7 1 A . "P . G. H." are my initials. 7'/! Q . ALL r i q h t. :> :i A . "10," 1 would assume is Oc.tobe r . 7.4 Q. Okay. 7 b A . The year 1 948. And, again, this number 71 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024390 i a <v 1 up here i. 3 2 Q. Okay. Now, why would yovir .initials appear :j on that document? 4 A. On thin docume n tV 5 Q. Yen. 6 A . T t was a reissue of the prior- documents in 7 1940, and I was in that area at that time. H Q. Would that mean that, you had reviewed that 9 document prior to Its issuance to ensure that It was 1 0 a c c. u r a t e. and so on and so fort, h ? I t A . L would say so. ] 2 Q. That "71" is the name number that appeared II on the prior document that we 1 4 A . Yes. 1 h ) . couldn't figure out, isn't it? l 6 A . Yeah. 1 7 Q . Now, if that number right, there means that 1 8 you issued that in - what did you say? October of ] 9 1940 -2 0 K. ' 48 . 2 1 Q. If we use the same ide n ti fic a lion, who n 2. 2 would th.it previous doc. 11 men t have been issued? 2 3 A . 19 4 7 , 24 Q. Okay. And whose initials are there - or 2 5 what letters are there in front o f: t h a h ? NELL MC CALLUNI & ASSOCIATES, INC- STLCOPCB4024391 I HS I A . " i? . r, . " 2 Q. Who would " l`. f. . " be? B A . I'd say 1: h a L w o u l d b e 4 Q. Paul I. owe? A . toque, b 0 G f! I-: , s Q It id Mr. bog vie precede 7 h e 1. d when these things won B i I) i t i a 1 S ? 9 A. Paul Logiie and .1 w ere in wtial they called l 0 the development department. Yes, we were together. 1 1 Q . Okay And, no, i t. would make sense that l 7. the documents Labeled "V. b." were reviewed by 1 B Mr. bogue before they went out .... l 4 A . Right. 1 b () . as a part of his job responsibilities I b with Moniidii t o; is that correct? 1 7 A. T would say this is correct. t H Q. And, so. Let - - let's go back now and let IB me take a look at - can you hand me those documents 2 0 just a second, and let: mo look here? 2 ) We've got - let's see. bet me look 2 2 at t h e one just prior to that, see Ifc that has a s e t: 2 B of initials on it or not. 2A Okay. We don't have - the first one 2 b we've got. a s e t. of initials on, as far as 1 can NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. STLCOPCB4024392 1 hh 1. tell, is thin Ooc umii I: 188 1 through 1.608, which it 7 would appear was issued under- Mr. I.ogue's direction 3 in Auijuat of 1947; is that correct:, from the node on 4 i t? 8 A . 1 t. h i n k so. 6 Q. Okay. Then the next one we've got. with the 7 letters and numbers Is this Document 1606 through 8 1634 that apparently wan issued after your review in 9 October of 1948; is that i:o r r o c t ? 1 0 A. T t has my initial. That, doesn't, mean that I 1 others d i. d n ' t review t h i. a . 1 7 Q . Okay. Hut you - 1. 3 A. Rut these .ire my Initials, and the other 1 4 ones are Paul I.ogue. I can see this. 18 Q. And -- and you would have had at least a 1 6 review responsibility for that, document., wouldn't, l 7 you? 1 8 A. Yea. 19 Q. Okay. And that, was issued apparently in 7.0 October of 1948? 7 1 A. I would say so 7 7 Q. Okay. 7.3 A. - - according to those numbers. 3 4 Q . f,et me show you another versionof P-118, 7 8 document. 1638 through J663 and on the next to last NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024393 ] ci > 1 page it lua you r i n i t L a I. s and the code: ! n d i. c a I; i n g 2 that, ono was issued in April of 19 49, does it not. V 3 A . Yes. 4 Q . Okay. I,t i me show you another version of 5 Applied, t. ion Data Bulletin P l l 5 , 0 o d u me n t L 6 6 4 6 t hronqti 3 6 9 2. A q a i n , o n t. h e n e x t to la a t p a q e we 7 havfi your initials and t h e code i. ndicatin g t hat was a issued in June of J950, correct? 9 A. Yes . 1 0 Q . Okay. I.et. me show you another version of l l t h o A p p I. i u a I: i o n Data Hu I. I id. in t* - I. I 5 , No. 1693 ] 2 through 177.1 . And on the next, to last page we have L 3 your initials and a code Indicating that document 1 -1 was issued in January of 1 9 i> 2 , correct? l 5 A. Yes. I. 6 Q. Okay. 1. e t me show you another copy of an 17 A p plication Data Bu lit* t i n No. P 115, Docunie n t 3 5 1 a throuqh B3, and direct your attention to the next, to 19 last page, which has your initials and a code 2 0 Indicating this document was issued in November of 2 l 1952, correct? 22 A . Yes. 2 3 Q . l. e t. me; show y o u a n o t. h e r v e. r si on of f h e 7.4 Application Dal. a Bulletin P-115, No. 177.2 through 7 h 1 7 r. 2 , a n d d i r cc.t. your a 1 t e n t.ion t o the fourth pa g e NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. STLCOPCB4024394 l ti a t from the end where there's a code giving your 2 initia]s and i nd i cnvtinq this was issued in March of 3 1953, correct? 4 A . Yes. Q Okay. Now, in the case of each one oj a t h e s e d o c u m e n l;n w h e r e your initials a p p e a r in the / date code, you would have - either by youjself or B with others - have reviewed these documents before 9 they were sent, to the printers for printing and then l 0 d i s t r i. 1) u l i. o n ? J ] A. Yes. } 7 Q. Were these printed in-house at Monsanto by l 3 Monsanto's own printing presses, or did they send 1 4 theae - i 5 A . N o. They w o r e a e n t. out.. l 6 Q Okay. Do you know how many were presented 1 7 a t one prin ting ? 1 8 THK VIDROGHAPHRR: Kxruse me. i have 19 1;o go off the record for a minute. 2 0 ( P i c u s s i o n a f t t. h e N e c o r d ) ? I THK Vl'DROGRAPlIRR ; We are now hack on 2 2 t he recoI'd . The t. i mei a 9 : ti M a . ih . 23 Q. (fly Mr. f.acey) Do you know how many of 2 1 t h e s e -- any v e rsion o f t h e a e bn I J e t. in 3 wo u I d b e 2 5 printed a t on pr 1 n t i mjby Mo n 3 a n t o'? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024395 1 A. They were, as w e s .i L (1, printed ouis ide , 2 Hut the quest. i o n i s it o w in a n y copies. 2 Q. Correct. Oo yu know? 4 A . I'M -- this is one r e uson I'm looking at VS the; numbers. 9 own o t those - one sees this number 6 71 - V Q . That, appears in each one of these a d oo u meets . 9 A . T hat. seems to b e in each one l 0 Now, here's a " 2 M . " 1 1 Q. Do you know what. tit at stands for? t ?. A . t ' m not e x c u a e in e I'm not sure what i 1. a n d s f o r , but i L m a y have to do with the 1. 4 n u in b e r - ] ?> Q . Quantity?' l f> A . Tit e q uant..i t.y . I wouldn't, know w it a t. else. l 7 Q. 11 definitely appears that the 71 that's Ln 1 H eac it one of these r odes 1 a consistent, becauae we 1.9 have thesane Application Data Rul. I. n tin, doesn't it? 2 0 A. Yes, I would tit inkso. 2 t Q . ALL r i. < j h t . And it a p p e a r s t h a t " / l " 2 2. ref erenres App I i ration DataIhi J .1 e tin P - 1 1 f> , c o r r e o t ? 2 2 A. That's - that's reasonable to ass time, I 2.1 would assume that.. 2C> Q . Now, let me - we'll c o m e b a c k and t a 1 k NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024396 I >u l h bo u t: l:hoH e b u l I. e t. I n s I. a 1e r 7 A . All right. '3 Q. -- but let me try to identify so mo 4 additional documents here in term a of what they are. And Let me start by handing you a document 6 called "Application Data Bulletin No. OP-118," 1794 7 through 1874, and ask you to take a look at that. 8 A. (Witness complies) 9 Q. Did you review that document last night, or 1 0 one like i t. ? 1 1 A. Oh, 1 saw it last night, yes. They have t 7 t h i. :i . 1 .3 Q . What, does the "OP- IIS" mean as opposed to 1. 4 t; h o " P - l l S " ? 1 S A. This is what T am trying to think, what 16 does that me a n . The " P " , w e d e c 1 <1 e d , w a s t h 1 7 p h o s j> h a t. e d i v i s i o n . 1 8 Q. That's what you told me, yes. 19 A . Right.. The "0 , " t.h i s , 1 do not. know, other 2 0 than, by this point in time, the materials were in 7 1 the area of the organic chemicals division. 7 ). Q. Okay. There's a code number there on that :i d o c n m e ti t , 3 s there not? 7 4 A . This is what; I Looked for. 7. r> Q . is there a code numb e j t. h e r e V NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024397 13 1 1 A. Yew. 2 Q. The code number cone] ude:: with that, same .3 reference bo "7L," does it not? 4 A . Right.. Th 5 a i a r i q h t . 5 Q . Now, i s that d o o u m o. n t b aw Lea). L y (: i. Med w i t h f, t h e s a bi e .info r nation that the previous A p p I i. rat.] a n 7 Data Rut l r t L n 3 Pith were fitted with? B A . (No response) 9 Q. And if you need to, you can take a lonnnt 1 0 t. o compare* that, document with one of the P-115 1 l doc: u me n t w . 1 7 A. Wett, wilti out. qoinq through it page by 13 page, it's essentially t h e w a m e, r would say. 1 4 Q. Okay. 1 Vi MH. CRAWFORD: Mr. Beni gnus, you may 1. 6 want to Io o k and be sure if it is the same or not 1 7 the same. I don't, know if t. hey are or not., but i n T U Vi WIT N F <3 C> : Weil, I can't I. e I. I from 1 9 paging through here. 3 0 MR. CRAWFORD: Well -2 1 Til F WITNlif, 5: It looks the same. 3 2 A . Doesn't, it l o o k t h e s a in e ? 3 3 Q (Hy M i , I.ac.ny) t t. h ink it iw , bnt 1 wan t 3. 4 ask you to tell mo 3 5 A . As far as T can t o) .1 , it. is. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024398 I. Q . Okay 7. MR. CRAWFORD ; You m i q h t. want to look .3 at the -- may bo the index on the two l: o see it 4 there'a any difference. !r Q* (ny Mr. bncey) f?'ee l t: ree to do (.hat. r 6 j u 3 t. wan 1. t o e s t a b I A a h for n :> whether or not. wk'v e 7 essentially got another version of the same document H t. hat. appears to have, a different cove r o n i t 3 A . Well 1 0 Q .... and looks like they changed the cover l l a n <i t hey e hanged it from being P - 1 1 5 t o OP-l15. 1 7 A . T h a t ' a h o w far I a m on this. 13 Q Okay. Welll, ta ke a l ook to ... at - - at the ] 4 document a nd pag e through a couple of them to see if I. !) they're essentially the. same intorna t i o n . 1 6 A . I'm looking at. the index and seeing no 1. 7 difference. In fact, they are the same, the index. 1 8 Q. Okay. f)o you want t o f 1 j p t h r o u g h t he r o s t. 19 of the docume n 1: - 2 0 A . It b a h a cl i f f e r e n t. f r o n t p a q e . 2 l Q- Okay . A ml w e k n o w i t ' 3 g o 1. an " 0 P " ins t tv a d 7. ?. o f a " P " o n i 17 7.3 A . Right, wh i ch C assume is the 7 4 o r g a n i c p h o r p h a t. e d A v i i o n . Q. Okay. And that - you told me what NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024399 i9j L luppenfid was the phosphate division moved from 2 inorganic to organic? 1 A . The A r o o 1 o r s d i. d , y o s . 4 Q . In about 1982? <5 A . Approximately. Eh could have been a bit 6 e a r 1 i e r . H 111. 1.1*3 h i a approximate point, in time. 7 ye:i. 8 0 . Are you satis/ i ed t.hat t his last document 9 I've handed you is just an updated version of the 1 0 previous documents? l l A . T h a 1. 's t tv e way it. looks t o me. 1 2 Q Okay. N o w l l A . W i t. h the "OP" a n d a different front page. ] 4 0 K 5 g h t. . Now, the Jus t d o c u m v. n t. t. ti a h w e l 8 had y o u m i. tj h 1: hand me that last t ! 8 d<3 c u merit 1 8 t tv a t.'s j immediately be.low that one, too. l 7 A . This one? 1 8 Q. Yes . 19 A , (Witness complies) 20 Q. The .las t P - 1 1 8 d onimeiil. we tv a d , / r o m t. h e 2 1 code on it - - and we're t a l k i n g a b o u t. D o c u m e n t. 1 7 ?. 2 2 2 t h r o u q tv 1 78 2 .... was printed in March of 19871, 22 <: o r r e c t; ? 24 A , Yes . 2 8 Q Okay. And that. went, a ut. with the P 1 1 8 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024400 1 covnr and your L n i t l a L a , correct? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q. Now, when we come to the first, of t. he OP 4 documents - - and maybe you can hand that 00 document h hack to me. 6 A . (Witness compiles) That's 0 P . 7 Q. f.eh me see if C can get our OP document:! a arranged and took at the pages that are that 9 contain the codes and figure out when they were 1 0 i ss ucd . 1 1 Did you have an employee number at l 2. Monsanto? I mean, did they h a v e employee numbers, i :i bn dg e number, or anything like t.ha t ? l 4 A . Not that I know of. ) b Q Okay . We i 1 , I noted that in these OP t fi documents, the initials had disappeared In the codes 1 7 that, we see down at. the bottom of the documents at ia the end, and in place of that there are numbers. ] 9 And I 3 u s t wondered if -- if maybe those numbers 20 represented the individual who w.13 responsible for 2 1 review of the document. 2 2 A. I don't have one with the number. 7 3 Q. Okay. Well, let mo show you these. I'm 2 4 trying to (jet these aligned In order here. And let; 2 f> me do that. I think I have them in what 1 believe NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024401 1 95 I to be their propsi' aequiMicfi, 2 I,et me 3how you, first, Application 3 Data Bulletin OP-L 1.5, Document. 1/53 through 1 7 82. 4 And on the third page from the er>d , we find the code, `5 at the bottom is 2 - l 9 5 0 3 - 5 4 0 2 M - 7l . A mi in each of 6 the OP docunent.a that I'm going to 3 h o w you, the 7 number 2-195 is the beginning number. And r'm just 8 wondering if t h a t. 2-395 represented a reference to a 9 particular individual who reviewed the document? 3 0 A. I can't answer that. 3 don't, know. l l Q. Fine. Would you, after you moved or after, 1 2 actually, the PC!H division moved to the organic l 3 group, have continued with responsibility for 1 4 reviewing documents like this before they went, out? IS A. I would be in the area and could be given 1 f> this to look at. 1 7 Q . We know from your initials on t.he preceding 18 documents 1 9 A . That. I did, yes. 2 0 Q. -- that you did for some period of time? 2 1 A. Yes, right.. 2 2 Q. Now, looking at. t. he code on that document., 2. 3 i. t has the same ''71" that's referenced a I l t h n 2 4 pr evj mis bulletins, does it. n o t. ? 25 A . Ye 3 . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024402 " r> I Q And i. f: w o look at the code. we so e a 2 reference there i n the 'numbering ays 1 cm. Maybe you 3 can open up tho L a :s t previous lib to the code 4 A . Th i s 7 5 Q - - a n d we can compare that, c ode number. 6 A. That doesn't have any code number. 7 f) . T believe it. does, right, there? 8 A . No . 9 y. I meant t. he code -- 1 didn't mean exactly l 0 the same code, but it has a - - It has a code number 1 1 on it, does it. n o t. ? L 2 A. (No response) 1 3 Q. Yep. It has your initials and then a code l 4 number, correct? ] S A. Which I thought was the date. t8 Q . Yes, wh i c h which you've indirat ed you 1 7 t h i n k means 1h i s was published in March of 19 8 3 ? l 8 A . That ' H how I interpret this. 19 Q . Okay. No w, as we c oiopare t. h e c o d e n u m b e r 2 0 that appears on t h e s a m e p a <j e of t h e docuinn nt, t h a t 2 1 code in the last. Application Data Bulletin P lib, 2 2 Document 1 7 22 through 1 7 42 , appears on Page 27 of-' 2 3 the internal n u m b e r of that document., does it not ? 2 4 A . Yes. 2 ft Q. When we come to Page 27 of the Application NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024403 L '> / X Data R u l 1.1: t i n O P - tl f'i , Dociiinfiiit 17 15 3 through i 7 fl 2 , 2 and we ] ook at. Page 21 of the internal numbering of 3 that document 4 A . Okay . 5 Q -- we f i rid another set o f c odes f> A . Codes. 7 Q. -- down at the bottom left? 0 A . R i (j h t . 9 Q We have a t. t. he end " 7 1 , " which appears l 0 re tore nee this particular aeries of books, does It 1 1 not ? 1 ? A. Right. We have this same 2M reference that 13 we've previously noted that may ro Late to the number 1 4 of documents published, correct? l 5 A . Yes. 1 6 Q. At. the beginning, instead of initials, like l 7 we previously had, which wore your initials 1 H A. Yes. 1 9 Q. - - P. G. B., we have a 2-19b. And you're 2 0 not sure whether t h a t references a person - 21 A. 1 - f don't, know what, that is, no. 2 2 Q. And then we have "3~S4," which would 2 2 a p p a rent.l y .i n <1 i c a t e t. his was p u h 1 i s h e d .in M a r c: h of 2 4 1. 9 b 4 , would i t not? 2.5 A. I would assume s o. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024404 ' > ri I Q. Okay. And it: vn: no mu t. o the next document. 2 Application Data R u 1 J e t i n 0 P -115, Doc. u m e n t. 1794 3 through 1824, we have the dame code numbera except 4 numbers indicating thin was published in February of *5 '55, correct? 6 A . It. .looks that way, right.. 7 Q. As we come to the next Application Data 8 RuJ 1 e t in OP --115, Document 1 825 through 1856, we 9 have, again, that same series of numbers except a ] 0 number indicating this was apparently published in t l December, 1955, correct? 1 2 A . Yes. 1 3 Q. And as we come to the next Application Data 14 Bulletin OP -115, Document 1857 through 1888 , we have 15 a set of code numbers which w o u1d appear to indicate 16 that this document was published in November of 17 1956, correct? l 8 A . f.e t me see that, J 9 MS . OI.RSKN : W h a t were t. it e tlonimen t. 2 0 numbers two document a back, the one b e f o r e 1. 8 2 5 ? 21 MR . 1,1 T'PI,K : 17 94 t o 1 8 2 4. 2 2 MS . OT.KSRN ; Okay . Thank you. 2 3 A . Yes, t. h i s looks - now,, they don't, have the 2 4 2M in here, do they? 2 5 Q- (lly Mr. l.acey ) Right., which would maybe NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024405 i >i 1 indicate a d L f: f e r e n t q u a n t i K y . 2 A . It. may i n d i c. a t. e a d j f t e re n t. <1 u a n t. j t y , Here 3 the numbers seem t o be run to get her. Here they are 4 a eparated. Hut .1 t. - t a p p e a r s t o relate. 15 Q. To November, 19 9 6? 6 A . J would a s a \i m e s o . 7 Q. Then we come bo bho next Application Data 8 Bullet 5 Ti 01'- l lb. No. 1 8 89 through 19 18; and the code 9 number a here appear to indicate that the document 1 0 was published in November of 199 7 , c ortect? 1 l A . Yes. J 2 0 Okay . And, again. you may or may not have 12 rev lowed these documents t ha t don ' t bear your 1 1 initials but. bear- the c o d e 2. - 19 9 ; you're j u st not. l `5 3 u r e ? 1 6 A. I don't know what 2-199 Is. l 7 Q. Okay. Would somebody in the group that you 1 8 worked with have been responsible for reviewing 19 these documents before they were published? 20 A . Those wer e my initials on that, indicates 2 l that T was involved. 2 2 Q. And - - 2 3 A. 2-199, i would assume, is someone else. 2 4 Q. Okay. And why do you assume 219b 2 9 indicates someone oth e r t ha n y o u ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024406  l A . I don' t know w h o 2 195 is. 2 Q. Okay . I a t. h v. re some reason you t. h i n k it's 1 definitely not you and it's somebody else, or you 4 -just, don't know who j l. i s ? *5 A . I d o n ' t know. 6 0.. Okay. Do you reral 1 ever transf eri ing t h e 7 respond i b i. 1 1 t y for rev iewing thesfj documents to 0 someone else? 9 A . 1 - officially - - you say, "transfer." l 0 Did r? N o . 1 1 Q- Do you r ecal 1 - l 2 A . They were rei a a iied by whoever was there. 1 3 a. Yes. What. 1 1 m -- what I'm asking -- and l 4 maybe I h o u l d ask it a d i f f erent way. What T want. lb to know i s whether or not. you recall some point, in 16 time where Lt was no longer y u r job responsibility 1 7 to review these documents before they were reissued? t 8 A. Now, that runs up to what years? 1 9 Q. Until you retired. 2 0 A. Until T retired.'' 21 Q. Yes. Do you recall any point in time where 2 2 you no longer had the responsibility tor reviewing 2 2 these documents that were in the lib series, whether 2 4 i. t ' s p- l l 5 or OP- l l 5 , after you stortod reviewing 2 b them in 1948? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024407 1 A. '49. Yes, thla is correct. There were 7. periods when 3 was not any longer associated with 3 the nonelectrical areas. 4 Q. Okay. And when did -- when would it be 5 that you no longer would have had any responsibility 6 for documents J i ke these t hat are labeled " p- 1 1 !i " 7 and "OP- 115"? a A . I don't, know t. h i s - - this -- - this point in 9 time, I really don't. 1 0 Q. Okay. That's fine. 11 A. In othfr words, complete dissociation trom 1 3 it.; is t h i 3 what you're asking? 13 Q. That's what I'm trying to find out about. 1 4 A. I really don't know. 15 Q. Okay. Let me direct your attention back to 16 Document. 1606 through 1634. And this is the l 7 document that had your initials and t h e code 1 B indicating it was printed in October of 1948. 19 A. Okay. 70 Q. 1 want, to direct your attention to Page 7 t 1625 of the numbering system for that document, or ?? Page 19 of the document., where i t talks ahou t 7.3 dermatology and toxicology. Do you gee that topic 74 b e i Ti g discussed there ? 7 5 A. Yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024408 1 t Q . Where w o u id you have gotten t h e i n f o r m a t L o n 2 to review and veri f V t h e accuracy of t. h e i n f orid t. i on 3 in that document- on dermatology And tox i.co torjy? 4 A. from the medicaldepartment. 5 Q. This La the Monsanto medical department? A . Correct. , yes. 7 Q. And who in the nodical department was R responsible for giving you that in format, ion? 9 A. Or. Kelly. 1 0 Q . V r . R m m e t Kelly? l 1. A. Yes. 1 2 Q. Would you have spoken personally with 13 Dr. Rnrniot Kelly to verity the accuracy of: that ] 4 information? 15 A. It would be directed to his attention, 16 reviewed by him, and approved by him. That was his 1 7 responsibility on the dermatology and toxicology. IH That is the responsibility of the medical director*. 19 This is l*th copy. 20 Q. Would you send him a draft of the language 2 l that you proposed to include and a s k that he review 2 2 it and verify its accuracy ? 2 3 A . I may not have done this, as I indicated. 2 4 This was s e n t t. o wr.i tern w h o put. this thin g 2.6 toqether . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024409 /u t 1 What r. am sayimj i. 3 : Thi. 3 would Ihnn 2 hava to, accordi nq to the procatlure, be forwarded to .1 the nodical department for approval of whatever is 4 writ, ten on the dermal, o logy or toxicology. 5 Q- Well, what I'm trying to find out, y o u h a d f> 3 o hi e responni bi 1 i ty for actual J y reviewing t. h a t 7 particular version of the Application Data Bulletin B P -1 1 b before .it. w a a printed and then distributed t a 9 customers, correct? 1 0 A. If my initials are on here, I would say, 1 1 yea. I'm not dissociated from it. 1 7 Q. Okay. And I quean I'm trying to find out n whether you personally assured yourself that all the 1 4 information in it was checked out. by the appropriate lr> people before this t h i n g went to press. 1 ft A. In the procedure and organization of 1 7 handling this, that calls for submitting these to 1 B the medical director- for his approval on what, you're 19 talking about here. 2 0 Q. I understand. 21 A. Okay. 27 Q. And my my question is slightly 7.:) d L f: f: e r e n t . 74 Would you, since you had 2 5 responsibility for that document - - i t'3 got your NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024410 /. 0 4 I in i-t U Is on it - would you personally ensure that, 2 the iedical director had, in fact, reviewed that 3 information and approved it; before you let the 4 document, go to press? S A . H was n o 1. myself that, le t. t. he do c u nt e n t. q o 6 to press. ft. would have gone through the people who 7 handled the printing of this. And what was to be H printed, was response -- their responsibility to 9 pass to the medical director. t 0 Q. Well, I'm trying to find -1 1 A. That's how I interpret, this, yes. L 2 Q. I'm trying to find out who it was who 1 3 finally said, "This document can go to press. It's 1 4 all been verified. It's all accurate. Everything 1 b is fine." ) 6 A. On the medical thing, it. would be Dr. t 7 Kelly. ) 8 Q. Well, was each piece of the document, then, 19 piocamealed out to somebody and nobody had a 2 0 checklist to make sure at the. end that Mr. KeJ ly 2 l or Dr. Kelly had reviewed his part and whoever it 2 2 may be was responsible for each part, had reviewed it 7 3 so they could say, "Well, yes, uverybody has 7 4 reviewed it.. We got all the okays back"? 2`j A, I think you'd have to ask -- address this NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024411 1 to who the product manager was. 2 Q. The product manaqer? 3 A. I would think. 4 Q . Hut .it wasn't, not y o vi ? 5 A. E was not the product manager o f: the group 6 Q. Yeah. My .... let me rephrase my question. 7 E t wasn't you w h o had t h e a responsibility of ensuring that, everybody who was 9 supposed to review each section ot: this document i o had, in fact, done so and given their approval 11 before it was sent out? ] 2 A . No. i 3 Q. Okay. Did you, during your work in and 1 4 with PCR's in the organic division and in the 1 F> inorganic division, ever provide copies of these 16 documents to anybody? 1 7 A. They were wailed out to the customers. Ifl Q. Unsolicited? They were just mailed? 19 A . 1 wouldn't, say "unsolicited." i don't know 2 0 how to interpret it. They were available for 2 1 purchasers, users of 1'CM. 2 2 0.. Okay. They could get a copy? 2 3 A . They could get. a copy. Th i 3 usually 2 4 transpired, E would say, through the sales 2l> d e p a / t m e n t. . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024412 Ub 1 Q. De t him show you the nnxt document that you 2 reviewed. Document 1 6 3S t h r o u g h 1663, which 3 according to the code with your initials, was 4 published in April of 1949 and, again, with regard '5 to the section on dermatology and toxicology, which f> appears at Document. No. 16i>4, internal Page No. 19, 7 ask it, again, the review of: that language to ensure H its accuracy was the responsibility of the medical 9 department and Dr. Emmet Kelly. 1 0 A. That, is the place where it originated; and l l it is the responsibility of the medical department, 1 2 yeo . 1 3 Q. Okay. Would the same thing 'be true for l 4 Document 1664 through 1692, where the dermatology 1 b and toxicology information appears on internal Page 16 19, Document No. 1683? 1 7 A. is this a different one? 1 8 Q. Yes, it's a different one. 19 Would that also have been the 2 0 responsibility 2 1 A. This also would be, yes. 2 2 Q . - - of: Dr, Emme t Kelly and the medlcj I 2 3 department? 2 4 A . Right. 2 c> Q. Okay. Would the same thing be true for the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024413 t "Dermatology `ind Toxicology" section in Document 2 169 3 thi'ough 1721, which appears at internal Page 3 19, Document No. 1712? 4 A. This is "Dermatology and Toxicology." The 5 a n s w e r in " y o 3 . " 6 Q. So, again, Di . Km met Kelly and his 7 de pa r t ino n t would bo responsible Tor the review and 8 accuracy of that, information? 9 A. That's where the information came from. 1 0 Q. And he would be responsible for reviewing l 1 it and making sure it was accurate before it was 12 p ubi ished , r 0 r reel? l 3 A . t have to assume t his. 14 0. 1 f he did n ' t. , h 0 should have? 15 A . I'm not a d 0etor. 1 6 Q. Well, 3 understand. If he didn't. - l 7 A, I'm not a dermatologist nor an MD. 18 Q. Certainly. If he didn't review that 19 information before it went out, he should have? 20 A. I would have to say "yes." 2 1 Q. It's important that information like that 22 be accurate, isn't it? 2 3 A. Yes. 2 4 Q. l'.et. we go to Document. 55 through 83 and, 2 5 again, ask you about the "Dermatology and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024414 . ^l ti I Tox I c o Logy" suction, which rippears on internal Page 2 19 of the document and 74 of the document numbering 3 aeries and ask again: r s that "Dermatology and 4 Toxicology" section the rcsponsi bi. J i ty for review 5 and correctness of Dr. R * m e t Kelly in the medical, 6 department.? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q Okay. I.et me ask you specifically about 9 D o c u m e n t 1889 through 19 18 with regard to the 1 0 "Dermatology and Toxicology" section that appears on 1 t Page 19 of the internal numbering of the document 1 2 and page - Document. Page No. 1908, whether that L 3 "Dermatology and Toxicology" section was the 14 responsibility of the medical department and 15 Dr. Rmmet Kelly as far as review and accuracy went? 16 MR. CRAWFORD: David, are these all in 17 the time period we're talking about, which wouLd be 18 '48 to -- the Fifties? 19 MR. DACRY: Yeah. It would go 2 0 through -- it appears from the codes, 1957, T 21 bel ieve 22 MR . CRAWFORD: Okay. 23 MR . DACKY: - was the last one. 24 MR . CRAWFORD: Okay. So, the time 2 5 frame i.s '48 to '57, roughly. Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024415 / u 'i I Q. (Py Mr. f.acey) Would that have -- would 2 that "Dermatoloqy and Toxicology" flection havd been 3 the responsibility o f Dr. R m n e t K e l l y as tar as 4 review and accuracy of j t. went? c> A. As medical director, hn 1 3 responsible for ( dermatology and toxicology. 7 Q. And specifically for reviewing and ensuring H the accuracy of t. h a t. particular discussion of 9 dermal, o logy and toxicology, correct? 1 0 A. I would say so. I. I Q. Okay. Would the same thing be true for the 1 7 other versions of booklets P 11b and OP-115 that we t 3 have previously discussed today, in each one of 1 4 those? l '5 A . Yes. 1 6 Q . In each one of those. Dr . Bmniot Kelly and l 7 the nndlc.il department would have been responsible 1 8 for reviewing and determining the accuracy o f: t h e 19 section on dermatology and toxicology? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. And you, to the extent, you were 2 2 responsible for certain of these books, from the 23 codes shown on t. hem, would not have taken upon 2 4 yourself to lot them be published without having 2 b been reviewed by Dr. Kmmet Kelly, correct NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024416 iu I A. To my knowledge of: tho i r being reissued, 2 this i fl true. I wjh n o t npr.eaaariJy infor m e d of a 3 reprinting every time. My responsibility when l was 4 associated w 5 t h the PCH's in t. h e nonelect.rica.i area 8 was in preparing this information that is in the 6 bulletin. And .... 7 Q. Okay. Whir li information did you prepare 8 spur if ica l l y and review for accuracy? 9 A. All right.. Let's say 3 "dealt with." I l 0 myself did not necessarily originate or develop the 1 1 information. I would have acquired information that t 2 is contained in here; and I pass it along as a 1 3 matter of knowledge and information, not that 1 l 4 myself developed this. 1 b {>. I understand. 16 A. All right. "fienerdl Physical Properties," 1 7 here, y e a, i would review this and see to it that it L 8 is as it should be. 1 9 Q. Okay. 2 0 K. Ml right. 21 Q. What about the discussion on adhesiveness; 2 2 would you have had anything to do with the 2 3 discussion on a d hes1v en e ss? 2 4 A. Yes, f would have reviewed this. And 2. b Atoc]or w ere used. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024417 /i ! l ` Q. What about the discussion on specific 7 voluie; would you have reviewed that.? 3 A. Yea, 1 would have reviewed that. This is 4 numerical , technical data. S U What about the discussion on averaqa 6 coefficients of expansion? 7 A . R i tj h t . 8 Q. "Corrosion," would you have reviewed that? 9 A . I would have reviewed that and the 1 0 densities 1 1 Q. "Electrical Properties," would you have 17. reviowed that? 1 3 A . Yes, I would have reviewed that. l 4 Q. "Nondry in(j Properties," would you have 1 ?> r e viewed t. h a t ? 16 A . Yes . 1 7 Q. "Nonflammability"? 18 A . Yes . 19 Q. "Solubi1ity"? 7.0 A. Yea . 7.1 Q. "Specific Meat, and Thermal Conductivity"? 7 7 A . Yes . 73 Q "Stabi 1 i t y "? 3 4 A . Yes. 7?. Q "Tliermopl a s t. i c i t. y " ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024418 j 1 - A. Yes . 7 Q. "Vapor! sat i o n 1. o s a " V 3 A . Yes. 4 Q. "Vapor Pj sssure"? 5 A . J`. lost a page, but the answer is "yes tt b Q . Okay. Now, when we come - 1 A . Oh, yes, "Vapor Pressure." a Q When we come to the section of the bu11i 9 that deal-3 with applications - - have you come to i o that section, yet.? t1 A . Oh, here it is, yes. i 7 Q Now, would you have reviewed the varioua 13 things that stated applications? 14 A . Yes. 1 ' Q. So, you would have at least revi ewed th e l 6 language about adhesive 3? 1 7 A , Yes . ta Q. "Klee Irical Rquipment"? 1 9 A . Yes . 7 0 Q. "Expansion Medium"? 71 A . Yes . 7 7. Q "Hydraulic Medium"? 7 3 A . Yes. 7 4 Q . "fiiibriral'.ion"? 7 f> I didn't, read all the subheadings NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024419 /- 1 .1 l under "Hydraulic Me ilium," but 2 A . Well, yes. Q "Lubrrca t i. o n " ? 4 A . (No response) 6 Q is that - 6 A . Yes . 7 <>. " Gasket and Packing" --- "Gaskets and 0 Pack L nq Materia La"? 9 A . Yen. ] 0 Q. Hut. when we get down to "Dernratology and 1 1. Toxicology, " yoti would not have reviewed that; ia ) 2 t h a t c. a i r e c t. ? 1 3 A . When it gets down to "Dermatology and l 4 Tox Leo logy, " i t la not my creation - 1 5 Q . T understand. 16 A , - to bogin with. 1 7 Q. 1 understand. What I'm -- 16 A . This would be subject to reviews! and 1 9 approval by the medical department -20 Q Okay. The point I'm trying -21 A . -- not. myself. 3 2 Q. Right. Th e point I'm trying to get to is: 2 3 Kveryihi nq up to that page of this document, would 2 4 have been subject to your review? 2 V> A . Yes . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024420 /i4 1 Q That one section would not have been 2 subject to your review and approval, c orr ec t. ? 3 A. Officially this is correct. 4 Q. Well, wlia t aboil t. unofficially ? 3 A . Correct. 6 Q . It wasn't, your responaibi 1 i ty, either? 7 A , It wasn't. T. say it is the responsibility 8 of the medical department.. 9 Q. Okay. Now, let's go on, after we got past l 0 "Hematology and Toxicology" -V 1. A . Yes . 1 7 Q. - there are, then, portions of the 1 3 bulletin that deal with suggested uses for Aroclors? 1 4 A . Yes. 1 S Q * Would you have reviewed these various i. a suggested uses? 1 7 A . Yes, I would. i a Q. Okay. And there's a whole list of uses 19 that are suggested? 70 A . Yes . 7 1 Q. And the n 1 here is a Jin 1 i n g of o t. h e r 3 3 literature at the very end of the bulletin that one 33 c a n get. from Monsanto on specific uses. 3 4 You s 11 l L need to get - L think it's 2i:> yet a page further in maybe:. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024421 . I *> I A . The next. p.Kje , 2 Oh, t l\ i 3 . 3 Q. There'a .i section of other l i. tiHMl.um th.it 4 one could order, l guess, cot reel.? 5 A . Yes. 6 Q . And wouldyou havereviewed that? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q . 8 o, theonly section ofthis entire booklet 9 that you would not very view would be "Dermatology 1 0 and Toxicology," correct? l l A. I'm not responsible for this, yes -1 2 Q. Hut you are .... 1 1 A . - that's corroe t. 1 4 0. Hut. you are responsible for everything l ri e I. s ? 1 6 A . Yes. 1 7 Q . Okay. And that, would be t rue with re.cja rd 18 to each version - 1 9 A. This 2 0 Q. -- of these documents? 2. 1 A. This was my work. You say 2 2 "responsibility." This w as my activity. 23 Q. Okay. That's fine. It's .... we're talkinq 2 4 about the same thing, aren't we? 2 8 A . Might.. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024422 1 Q . Okay , Now, let me see if we can switch t o 2 another group of d o c. u ni e n t t h a t. deal with PCH's; and 3 they have a dl Pforcnt 3orieH or at toast a different 4 net of covera on them. I'm not sure that they're a 5 different 3nr lea of documents, or the Information 6 is. 7 Hut. Jet. me show you a Document. 1919 8 through 1966 and ask if you've had a chance to look 9 at. that document, since yesterday afternoon? I 0 A. ['ve seen this yesterday afternoon. 1 J C>. Now, this document has much of the a a me l 2 information on POH's that the bulletins known as 1 3 "P-1 1 fi" or "OP-lib" had; is that correct? 1 4 A. This Is correct, has much of the same 1 f. information. ] 6 Q. Do you know whether or not that document l 7 was one that was q o n o r a L e d earlier than the l1 and ] 8 0 P 1 1 b series or if this is a subsequent document, 19 that replaced those earlier ones? 20 A . (No response) 21 Q. And [ note for one example 2 2 A. I'm looking at the information in h e re. 7 3 1 t. ' a essentially derived f ro* these earlier ones, I 2 4 would say. Now -- 2 8 Q. Yeah. This appears to be a later -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024423 2; / I A . E t appears tha I; way to m o , yes. 2 Q . Okay. There's several t h i nqs that won! d .1 seen to indicate that. If you l o o k at - - toward the 4 end , where it gives the. a cl d r ess for Monsant o , it has <3 a two d i. g i. t /one i n L h e dilLng address. 6 Do you fi nd that? 7 . 81 . Louis Hd ? 8 Q . Yeah. 9 A . 1 see that, now . Y e 8 . Yes . This i 8 out. on l 0 Lindbergh Rou lovard, yea. 1 1 Q . The -- the development, of these postal t 2 /ones i. s something that, used to have, a long 11 e 13 a q o - 1 4 A. Two numbers, and now they're five, is it, l'3 or more. 1 6 Q . Y e a h . Put. we're in the situation w h e r e we L 7 at least have got two numbers in a /one at this 1 8 point. 19 Can you toll from reviewing that about 2 0 what date you think that document was created? 2 1 TUI? W I T N K S 8 : Did you write that 2 2 down ? 2 3 MP . CPAWFOPD: 1 don't -- I don't 24 think s o . 2. fi THK WlTNKSSi I don't, think we did. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024424 1u I MR. CRAWFORD: That's not one you had 2 a hand in wri tiruj, was it? .9 T H R WfTNRSS : No. 4 MR. CRAWPOl?])! Okay. Weil -- here, 5 T ' l l take a look at it. 6 If you don't know, juat t e J I him you 7 don't know. R A . I don't know. 9 Q. (Ry Mr. r.acey) This is not a document that 1 0 you ever reviewed any portion of? l I. A . Not to my knowledge, no. ] 2 Q . Okay. 1 3 A. Hut. it is the same information, by and 1 4 large, plus some other -~ perhaps some additional 1 f> info r m a 1io n . If. Q . And all you can tell us is that it. appears 17 to b subsequent to the P l I. 5 1 R A . 7es. 19 Q. -- OP-115 series? 20 A. This T w ouId say " y e s. " 2 1 MR. CRAWFORD: David, on Page 11, 2 2 there's a footnote at. the bottom referencing some of 2 3 the material that has a da lie of 19 53. Do, l guess 24 you c.ouid assume it must be after that; but. 1 2 5 that's all I see. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024425 / J 'i I Q- (ay Mr, f.arey) And if it comes a f I: e r the P 2 and OP series , then that, would put it after- about. 3 1957 because that's? the; l a ;? t OP series do o n m e* n t w a 4 found, correct? ft MU. CRAWFORDr Well, if you know. ft A . C would - without bo L ng -- [ ' m no t sure of 7 the date of 1. his. I didn't, put it out, but I a neither can confirm nor reject this. 9 Q. (Hy Mr. Lacey) Who would have been l 0 responsible within Monsanto Cor putting out the J1 d o r u m e n t that in numbered 3 9 19 through J 9 6 6 ? l 2 A. f.et me see it again. 1 3 Q. Certainly. 1 4 A . T h e person r cr s p o n n i b 1 e , 3 w o u 1 d say, is 1 h e lb product', manager. 1 ft Q. What - 1 7 A. That's the ultimate person responsible, ta y. Leh me -- let me direct your attention to 1 9 the pages that have general physical properties of 20 the Aroclor compounds listed at. the first of the 2 5 document. 2 2 A . This? 23 Q . Yes. .1 list. no. As von flip in, t.here ' n 2 4 a chart: about three or four pages in, similar to the 2ft one you previously looked at. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024426 1 K ep on going. Yon' l L find the chart 2 of - - get. t.hrou gh {.he. table: of contents there. .3 A . Oh, this. 4 Q. Yes. Now, we're talking - - that's th e 5 <: hart t: tat shows tho qenera l physical properti e s o f 6 t h e some of t. h e Aroclor compounds, correct? 7 A . As t he a ft earlier book Lots do, right. 8 Q. Yeah, very similar to the earlier booklets? 9 A. It is. 1 0 Q. Yes. l l A. Han't that it? 1 2 Q. [ think it is. And my question is this i 13 You i nd i. oa t ed that you wou Id have reviewed the 1 4 information on the charts in the earlier booklet 3 to 15 confirm its accuracy, correct? 16 A . Yes. 1 7 Q. Now, who would have reviewed the 18 Information on the chart here to ensure i t; s 1 9 accuracy? 20 A . Ido not know. 1 1 o 1 d you that. t h e 21 responsibility o r g a n i z.it i o n w i s e would be f. he p r o d u c t 2 2 manager. Now, there are p e o p 1 e under him t hat w o vi 1 d 2 3 have this assignment, r suppose; but he - he's the 2 4 person ultimately responsible. 2 5 Q . What E ' m tryinij to find out is whether you NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024427 22 1 I know whether or no 3: you, in fact, had the 2 renponaibi 1 i ty or not for reviewing that, chart for that particular publication? 4 h . NO . S Q . fou know t ha t. you did not? 6 A , I' did not, n o . 7 Q How do you 8 A. r 9 Q. Pardon me. How do you know you did l 0 A . I d i d n ' t write this. 1 1 Q A n cl y o u know did y o u not. review i t? l 2 A . No, I did not review this . 3 X Q Okay . 3 4 A . But., as you can see, in u c h of the 18 information came from our earlier literature. 1 6 0 . Okay. Would the name thing b a true for 1 7 Document 84 through 131; that is, that you didn't ] a write it but that, much of the information contained 19 in it cane from t. h e earlier literature that you were 2 0 responsible for reviewing? 21 A. This looks Like the same thing I just 22 looked at. 2 2 Q . It appears to be o t. o hi e . 2 4 A . ): can't see a difference - anything 2 8 different. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024428 // I Q. Okay. Anti, so, I: he same thing would bo 2 true i You did not. persona] )y review any of the 3 information in that document, but it does appear 4 that much of the. information in there came from <3 earlier documents that you did review and verify? 6 A . Yes. Yes. 7 Q Okay . a A . This is an -- an enlargement., a J ater 9 edition 3 0 Q. Okay. Let me direct your attention to l t a n o 1. her series of documents; and let me hand you 1 2 Document 234 7 through 2.37 7 and ask you to take a 13 Look at that document, which is labeled "Monsanto J 4 A a k e r a .1 Inspection and Maintenance Guide." lb Are you fami.llai' with that document? ) 6 A . Yes. Yes. 17 Q Did you have anything ho do with that IB document? 19 A . Ya a . 2 0 Q. What did you have to <lo w i t. h that, document? 21 A . I accumulated the information and the 2 2 data. I worked on the accumulation of this 2.3 information and data and making rough drafts of this 24 information that, is contained here in this 2.5 literature. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024429 223 1 Q . So, you we i' o a c t u a I l y t he person who 2 started puttinq together what, became that, booklet, .3 that you have? 4 A . This in r ,i q h t , yen. 5 Q. Okay. About when did you actually start <> the process of' preparing that document that's called 7 an " A s ke ra l Inspection and Maintenance (3 u i d e " ? 8 A . It. was a o m e t. i m e i n t. h e period of t. h e early 9 to m Ld l960 ' s . 1 0 Q - Okay . D o e a t h a 1 document have a code on it l l a L the buck that will help you identify about when 1 7 i t. was pub 1 i s h v. d ] 3 (Discussion off the Record) l 4 TUT-: V IDROGRAPHKR : We're about to go 1 S off the record. The time is 10:43 a.m. 16 (Discussion off the Record) ] 7 THR VIDROGRADDER: We are now hack on 18 the record. The time vs tl:05 u.m. 19 Q . (By Mr. Lacey) Mr. Hen i cj n u s , before we 20 took the break to let Mr. Crawford make some phone 2 1 calls and iust. take our morning break, you were 2 2 Looking at that inspection and in a i n t e n a n c o q u i d e a n d 2 3 you were telling me that you prepared it sometime in 2 4 th l 9 6 0 ' s ? 2S A . Yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024430 , /4 1 Q. AIL r L <] h t . Was there any partic.uLjr reason 2 why yon prepared that, document. ? 1 A. Yea 4 Q . Why was that? 5 A. Well, It states its purpose in the 6 introduction. it. says why it. was prepared. 7 May t rsad il:? H Q . Certainly. 9 A . " T h L 3 manual describes the o p e r a t i n g 1 0 characteristics of transformer Askeral liquid l 1 insulation and how It differs from mineral oil." 1 7 Q. lie 1 1 A. "The information is based on facts gathered l 4 by Monsanto over 10 years as producer of Askeral 1 f> plus knowledge gained from the experience of 16 transformer manufacturers and users. ft is a m a n u a L 1 7 t. h a l deals with the differ*; nee of the 18 characteristics of liquid Askeral .is versus mineral 19 oil." 2 0 Q. What, was this to be used for? To whom 7. I would this be provided, for example? 7 2 A . This would he provided to m a n u f a c t. u r e r s of 2 1 Askeral Irnns formers and also provided to users of 7 4 Askeral transfoimers. 2 5 Q. Now, in that Introduction there was a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024431 /. / 1 rfiforence to Momunlio luvimj produced Askerul for 2 over 30 years? .1 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Docs that 3 0-year period run from when 5 Mona a n t o acquired the B w a nn Chonicdl Comp a n y or buck 6 from 1930, '31, '33, when G . F. . started using PCR'a 7 for transformer dielectric fluids? 8 A. I'm not sure. It. says, "Rased on facts 9 gathered by Monsanto over 30 years." I .... I can't 10 define it. any closer than that. l l Q. You don't recall what 30 -year period you 1 ? w ere r e f e r r i n cj to when y o u wrote that? i rj A. No, I d o n o t. 1 4 Q. Okay. 1 S A. Th:i 3 was a rouqh - - in other words, it's l 6 been used a Long time. 1 7 Q. Okay. 1 8 A. It's been in use a long time. 19 Q. And - - and, if I understood your testimony 2 0 correctly, PCR's started being used in transformers 2 1 In the early 1 9 3 0 ' s ? 2 2 A . lea . 3 3 Q Ho , if you were talk i n g a b o u t. a 10-year 7.4 period. this would have to be w r 1 then a t Least n o ?.?> earliei than the early 1960's , correct ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024432 /n I A . Yes, 1; h l s i s corrnc t. . 2 Q. A rid t. h a t ' s when you th i n k you wrote it., was 3 In the I960 ' s ? 4 A . In the 1960 ' n . 5 Q Okay 6 A . Yen. 7 Q. No w, if you would, turn t o the page of t.ha t. a document that talks about di reef. ions for handling. 9 I think it's pretty close to t. he front of it there, l 0 not far after the introduction. maybe three or four 11 pages later. Right t. h e r e , I t.hi nk .... where i t t 2 1: a 1 k a - - 1 3 A. Yes. 1 4 Q. .... about, directions for handling? 15 A. For handling. If. Q . And under that, there is a discussion of 1. 7 "use ordinary personal precautions," correct? 18 A. Right. 1 9 Q. Where did you get the information that went 7.0 into that section on ordinary personal precautions? 21 A. This was obtained again, referring to 7 2 the introduction, this information was gathered," as 2 3 the introduction says, by Monsanto based on t he 7 4 exporip.nco of 3 0 years, of our experience and the 2 5 experience of iranaforner manufacturers. In the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024433 22 7 1 introduction, ao#f! of the transformer - the - - the 2 main transformer manufacturers are listed here; for 3 instance. General Kl.ec trie Company, West incjhousc, 4 Allis-Chaliera. Others could be listed - listed. 5 To answer your question, this was 6 derived from the experience of 30 years satisfactory 7 use in the industry. 8 Q. Well, for example, what I'm trying to find 9 out is whether or not you went to somebody in the 1 0 medical department, at. Monsanto to get the l l information that's contained here or whether you got 1 2 that just from your own personal knowledge. I 1 A. Not from my own personal knowledge. 1 4 Q. Okay. 1 H A. This came from the knowledge that, was 16 gathered from 10 years satisfactory use of Askeral. 1 7 Q . Okay. My question is -- 18 A. And -- oh, excuse me. 19 Q, My question is: To whoa did you go to get 20 the information about that 10 -year history of: 21 handling Askeral? 2 2 A. This came from the people here in the 2 3 industry manufacturing and using Askeral 2 4 transfomsra . 2 8 Q. Well, let me -- - NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024434 /rt 1 A . And - - okay. 2 Q Go ahead. I'm sorry. I didn't. - - 1 d A d n ' t. 3 aan to Interrupt you. C thought you wore through, 4 but go ahead. b A . And you you asked about my ft knowledge . There was no knowledge. as Car a s I ' m 7 c. onr.erned no knowledge, of toxic or other i. 1 1 8 effects . So, I share this view. I share this vifiw. 9 Q. Okay. Well, Jet me go back ; and let ' s talk L 0 a b o u t t h i s document. And, In fact. why don't we 1 1 identify Homo other vers iona of it because 1 think l 2 t hoy ' fft all. essentially the same. And let's get 1 8 that done, maybe, before we talk about the details. t 4 A . Okay. 1 !i Q . Let. me also show you Documents 2 3 78 through 1 6 2410, also Libeled "Monsanto As kora1 Inspection and 1 7 Mainlenanre Guide. " l 8 A. Okay. 1 9 Q. Document. 2299 through 2331, also labeled 2 0 "Monsanto AskeraL Inspection and Maintenance Guide"? 21 A. Yes. 2.2 Q . Document. 21 2. through 240, also .1 abe J ed 21 "Monsanto Askeral Inspection and Maintenance Guide;" 2 4 and Document. 180 through 211, also labeled "Monsanto 2 5 Askarel Inspection and Maintenance Guide" but with NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024435 7/9 L the name Allis -Clu Imern down at the bottom. 7. A . Oh, all ri g h t. . 3 Q. Now, what 1 want to ask you i. 8 whother 4 those documents are basically c o p i e 3 O f t h v. s a hi e b document -- 6 A. Hi girt. 7 Q. - containing the same information ? H A . Right. 9 Q. Now, Jet me aak you, with regard to the one l 0 that's got Allis-Chalmers written on it, why is 1 1 Aj]is -ChaJmor a name down there on the bottom of that I. ?. document that begins P a g e l fl 0 ? 1 3 A. A .1 J i a Cha .1 mer s made Askeral transformers, 14 was one o f the people making Askeral transformers. 1 f. A 1 ] i s - Cha 1 mer s requested this literature for - - to 16 u s o a n d our a d v e r tisin g -- t say "advertising" - 1 7 our literature department. - - I think that's a more l 0 covrec I; nomenclature in these e a s e s than saying 19 "advertising" .... our literature department agreed to 20 print some of these with their name on it .... 2 1 Q. Okay. ;>? A . - an they w o u1d have f or anyone else. 2 3 Q. Okay. 2 4 A . T h a t occaaiona t. h i s . Q ft was still the d o e u m e n t that you had NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024436 '' , W 1 prepared at Monsanto? 2 A . Ke s . Now, there's an Allia-Chaliicrfl poison 3 Its tod hero In the introduction as having 4 participated in the assembly and so forth of this 5 information. 6 Monsanto, realize, does not -- did n ot 7 make, d o s i g n, manufacture - - that is, make?, test, 8 install, or use transforncrs. We made the fluid. 9 Q . Right. ] 0 A . T hi s is why t. h e subject is " Aa k e r a 1 l l fi i g u l <i . " T I: is not subjected " Askeral ) 2 Transfomers. " it. is -- the sub ject 5a "Transformer 13 Askeral 0 iquid." We're talking about the liquid. 1 4 () . Certainly. 3 8 A. Now, these people who are listed here, they 1 ft are in that category of being representatives of 1 7 nidniif act urers and marketers, installers, of the 18 equipment. 1 9 Q. The document, in, however, a 2 0 Monsanto-prepared document with information, in 2 1 part, you gained from others? 2 2 A . Coree c h. 2 3 Q . Okay. Now, ( wan t. to focus your at. ten t i o n 2 4 back on the paragraph that deals with ordinary 2 8 personal precautions. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024437 /<i 1 A . All right. 7. Q. Again, i ii s t. so we're clear, when we're 3 talking about Askeral, we're talking about pen's 4 that. Monsanto had the trade name of Aroolor for. 6 corrcch ? 6 A . Yes. 7 Q And are also just I'CH's, correct? 8 A . (No response) 9 Q They're polychlorinated biphenyls, right? l 0 A . Not necessarily In all eases here. 1 1 Q . Is there, any Askeral that does not contain L 2 pen r h? 1 3 A . Well, if you go through the literature t 4 and -- and look at the formulas, there were blends 1 6 of PCH's w i t. h other things. 16 Q . Yes. Hut is there any lsker.il that does 1 7 n o t. contain l'CH's? 18 A . Oh, put that way, correct. 19 Q. Okay. There are different, formulas for 2 0 blending -71 A . Correct. 2 2 Q. -- PCfl 1 s to meet the spec i. f j cations o f 2 3 General. Rlftctric or W e 3 t 1 n g h o u s r* or M. 1 i.s -Chalmers 24 or whoever? 2 6 A . This is right. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024438 / t/ 1 Q . Rut: t h e y a 1. I o o n t ,j in P C R ' 3 ? 2. A . K i q h t. . 3 Q . Or wha 1 Monsanto c a ] 3 e d " A r o c 3 o r s " ? 4 A. Righ t . f> 0 Okay. Now, talkincj about, these ordinary 6 personal precautions, wo have that same -- this same 7 information in ear. It one of these documents we've B just looked at - 9 A. Yes . l 0 Q. ---- each version of: them. 3 3 Now, did you acquire information on 1 2 ordinary personal precautions from talking with 1 3 Genera J Klee trie and Wes l.i mihousc and t 4 A L I i - C. ha I mor s ? 1 !. A . Not exclusively. 1.6 Q . Where else did you acquire; information on 3 7 t. h r> l. V IB A. Monsanto. 3 9 Q. And from whom at Monsanto did you acquire 2 0 such information? 2 1 A. Our plan! people, as supported by the 2 2 industrial hygiene people. 2 3 Q. Are they in - the industrial hygiene 2 4 people in the medical department? 2 S A , Yes. They 're with Dr. Ke 3 3 y. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024439 2 1 .1 I Q. So 2 A . He was n o t. t h e only o n e the r e . 3 Q. Okay . So, you would - 4 A . This is a c o n :t e n s u a - r> Q Okay . 6 A . -- in other words. 7 Q Okay. a A . T t. is a consensus, in-house an out-house 9 Q Okay . T hose arc? not j u at your thoughts? 1 0 A . That is r i g h t. . l l Q . They .... 1 2 A . I acqui red these thoughts. T was in an 13 o f f! i co , l ike you a r o . J 4 Q . And t. h e s e thoughts, then, include t h e 115 thoughts of! Monsanto's nodical department? 1 6 A . These t.houqht.3 were certainly checked wit h l 7 the nodical department at some period in time. 1 8 Q . And they approved w h a t. you said? 19 K. They must have -- the - the procedure was, 20 froi a product group, an we went through before, 2 l whan literature like this is composed and then, in 22 the the writing department, T think we called 2 3 t h e m rather than advertising, they would sot up the 24 format . 2.S Now, in-house at. Monsanto, this is to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024440 /. J -l I passed onto the medir.al department . 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. So, I a a.iu we that. it. was done so, 4 Q. Okay. So, my -- nty specif ie quest inn is: E' Was this directed for review to the medical b depa r 1. went? 7 And your answer is you think so. H A . E think no. 9 Q. Okay. Now, did you also have this l 0 information on personal precautions reviewed by the 3 1 plant, managers at. the plants that made PCS'a? l 7. A. Not directly, no. No. 3 3 Q. Did you do it. indirectly? l 4 A. E would -- T would say, really, no, other 3 b than -- t.o my knowledge -- this is my personal l 6 knowledge --- E was not aware of. anything that would 3 7 be contrary to this. 1 8 Q. Okay. But the actual review process, then, 19 at Monsanto Involved what you knew and what the 20 medical department, knew? 2\ k. Cor reot. 2 2 Q. And nobody else, correct? 21 A. That is the answer to your question. 7 4 Q. Okay. Now, I note in t.h i a section on 21 ordinary personal precautions you state that AskeraL NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024441 / .1 _) t has been mado , handled, and u s e d for ovftr 30 ya r-3 2 without c a u 3 i n g toxic or o t h e r ill effects. f s t. ha l. 1 what your statement was? 4 A . That's what. it. says. 5 Q . And you believe that to be true? 6 A . A a f a r a a i know. 7 Q. And would you consider anybody who might 8 get sick enouqh to seek medical attention having had 9 a 1; o x i. o or i. I 1. a f I: ec t ? ] (1 A . Mould what.? 1 1 Q. if Homebody who had made, handled, or used t 2 Askera l hod a sufficient medical problem to 3eek .1 n medical attention, would you consider that a toxic 14 or ill effect? i r A. Yes, I would consider that something to l 6 call and go see the m ed i c a L department. 17 C2. So, you - 18 A. Yes. 1 9 Q . You understood the statement, h err e t o m e a n 2 0 that nobody who had made, handled, or used Askeral 21 had ever gotten sick enough to need medical 2 2 attention, correct? 23 A . F s s e n l i < i J 1 y , yes. 2 4 Q. Okay. And certainly not to have died from 2 r> i t? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024442 /- -> o I A . Thai: ' 3 r i tj h t . 2 Q. Okay. Now, the next, sentence says, " f t can 3 be handled" -- and "it," you're talking about the 4 PC - 3 A . As ke ra L . 6 Q . Askeral, the material containing pcH1s, 7 corrnc 1: ? 8 A . Right.. 9 Q . -- "ft can be handled with only minor l 0 p r c aiitlons"? 1 3 A . Ye3 . 1 2 Q . What. did you consider to be minor l 3 prociiw h i o n s ? 1 4 A. What. I would consider here to be minor l`3 precautions is sensible c leanl inoss and avoi dance of J f. long-term exposure to the skin or to the vapors; and I 7 it it were to come in contact with the akin, to wash 1 fl the skin. That is how 1 interpret t. h i a . 19 What r a in saying is: Our people, to 2 0 y knowledge, did not. wear complete rubberised 2 1 suits. They wore ordinary clothes in our plants. 2.2. And - 7 3 Q . No special clothing? 24 A . No special clothing. 7. f> However-, if accidentally it was NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024443 X s p I I. l ed, they would have removed their cloth i.nq 2 instead of conUmiiiK] to wear the clothing w i t. h the 3 Askoral spilled o v e r themselves. 4 Q Okay . And you would have A . They would have washed themselves. (> Q Okay. You consider .... 1 A . They did not wear special glove 3 and so a f o r t. h . 9 Q They didn't have any special gear for their L 0 hands or their tool or their heads or anything like 1 1 t. hat? 1 2 A . No special gear, no helmets -well, hard X 3 h a I. h t: o r a or. hunicaL -- no spare-age suits. 1 4 Q. 0 k a y . l 3 A . All rig h t . 1 f Q Well, did they have space-age suit3 back t 7 t: h n n ? 1 H A . (No response) t 9 Q. That's a serious question. E mean, ! have 20 Been -- you know, in recent, years 1 have seen on TV 2 X wo -- we had a big chemical spill up lie re in Rast 2 2 T e x a a not too 1 ontf ago, where a train ran o f i t h e 3 3 tracks. And on TV you could see people out there 3 4 with these white suits, all covered up. 2 a Did they have stuff like that back NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024444 .1 H n i when yon were wri. tlnq this? '?. A . I would a a y not to the typo that, they have 3 now. They would ~~ they had protective clothing on 4 a severe situation. b Q . Okay. And it was your u n de r a t. a n d i n q that 6 the way Monsanto handled PCR's in their plants, they 7 didn't have any special protective gear for their 8 heads, their hands, their feet, or anything like 9 t. hat? 1 0 A . Thin in correct.. l l Q . And you wouldn't consider special 1 2 protective gear for the head, the hands, the feet, I 3 and stuff like that minor precautions, would you? ] 4 A . No, Those are unusual precautions. l 8 Q. Okay. Now, you go on to say, "If It's 1 6 accidentally spilled on the hands no serious skin l 7 irritation will occur"; is that correct? i a A . That.'s -- that's what it. says. L 9 Q. Where did you get that information? 20 A. This i nfornaUi) n c a m e f t o m t h e consensus 2.1 the people in the industry and from t h e e x pe rionce 7 7. i n Monsanto's p1 a n t - plan t s . I would j n c. J u d e 2.3 I. h i s . 2 4 Q. Now, where did you get. t li e information o ri 2 5 1. h e fixpnrinnc e in Monsanto's plants? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024445 2 .i 9 1 A. t would :mv this was run through the 2 industrial hygiene people, again, in the medical 3 department. 4 Q. Medical department? A . Vns . 6 Q . You cj o on to nay t. h a t. - - t. h a t., "If Askeral 7 is spilled on the hands, prolonged contact may lead a t.o drying and chapping of the skin" ? 9 A . Th l a L 3 r L gh t. 1 0 Q That '' s kind of 1 i ke i f you ' re out in the 11 winter w i n d and your skin d lies o u t ? 1 2 A . It's 1 i k e i 1 you have your hand in paint t 3 thinner, la what it says here. 1 4 Q . Okay. 1 S A. It removes the oils from the skin. 16 Q, Was there any problem that you suggested 1 7 resulting from prolonged contact, with the skin, t 3 other than drying and chapping? 19 A. Mot t o my knowledge. 2 0 Q. So, the one reason you'd want to - 2 1 A. However-, 1 think if you'll go into this 2 2 further, it says if - avoid prolonged contact with 7 2 t. h e s kin. 2 4 Q . My question is: The only thing that y ou 2 3 indicated might occur as a result of pro longed NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024446 1 contact w a s (lryin q and chapplnq of the skin ? 2 A . No. No. 3 Q . What. - - where else do you i n d i cat e t. h v, i e ' s 4 any othev problem that can result from p rolonqnd S contac t w i t h 1. h e skin? 6 A . You're talking to me n ow. 7 0- Yes. B A . Right. I aw not. a dermatologist, nor an 9 MD . 1 0 Q. Yeah. 1 1 A , J h a v e gone as far in my thinking on this, l 2 not being a dermatologist or medical person , as C 1 3 o a n go Now , I don't know you're asking me, l 4 " Wh a t e 1 so?" T h is is -i medical question. 1 h Q That's a different. - - I'm sorry. Maybe 1 I 6 didn't ask my question well. 1 7 I ' n tryinq to find out what else you 10 told people in this document might result from 19 prolonged contact of PCH's with the skin, other than 20 drylTig or chapping? 21 A. I don't think anythinq - 2 2 Q. Okay. 23 A. - j n thin document, no. 2 4 Q. Okay. Sa, if a person read what you wrote, 2 S they would be reasonable in concluding that the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024447 24 1 I reason you wanted l;o avoid prolonged contact with 2 the akin was to keep it from chapping and drying, .1 correc t? 4 A . X don't, agree with that fully. 5 Q. Okay . 6 A. That'a part of it. 7 Q . What else would they conclude would restilt 8 from prolonged contact, with the skin? 9 A. I don't know what they would conclude. ] 0 Neither do 3 know what might conclude. l l What is going to be said here la, 1 2 "Avoid lonq-term exposure"; and what is definitely 1 1 said, "If spilled, wash It off" -- "wash with soap 1 4 and water." i r> X cannot, con jecture what might, happen . 16 Q. Well, E -- that's - 1 7 A. I don't, know. I don't know what, you're l 8 asking for. I don't --19 Q. What - what I'm trying to find out -- 2 0 A . This is not a medical - this is not a 21 medical dissertation. 2 2 Q. We Ll - 2 3 A. This is a consensus from people handling 2 4 Askera l in the transformer manufacturing area and in 2 f> our plants, their experience. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024448 , l, 1 Now, E hiivn no know lodge beyond what 2 I've said here. Now, j f mmeone else doe:: have 3 knowledge, I don't have it. 4 Q. Okay. A . Would our hi e cl .i c: a 1 people have :L 1 ? I don't 6 know. You'd have to ask them. 7 Q. Well, let me aok you this. I'm just trying 8 to find out what you've said and what you think 9 people should have understood from it, because - l 0 A. What l tic ink people 3houl. d understand froa 1 1 what I said then, now, and at any tine, this is not l 2 soda pop. Thia material, it is s a i d, "Avoid 1 3 prolonged contact with the skin. If there is skin l 4 contact, wash In an ordinary way with soap and 1 e> water. No special washings are required." 16 And i t also somewhere -- E'm - - I 1 7 can't read all of this at once - somewhere it says, 18 ''Avoid breathing the fumes and the vapors." 1 9 Now, my premise here is: If so hi rone 2 0 adheres to this, they're going to bo all right. 2 1 Q. Well, what was "prolonged contact"? If a 22 person contacted it during a shift when ho was 2 3 working, would it be appropriate for him to wash 2 4 carefully at the conclusion of his shift? 2 S A. If he had Askeral on his skin, he should NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024449 2A I wash at the time - - immediately after it ?. Q . He should wash - 1 A . - - in in y opinion. 4 Q. - ~ j m m e d i a t. e 1 y 5 A . l would s <i y s o 6 Q Okay. 7 A . T h e n - - and t. h is is n o t. prolonged. An 8 e i g h t hour exposure is pro Longed exposure. 9 Q . Did you say in here to wash immediately? t 0 A . 11 says if - - if it contacts the skin, wash ) 1 it. Wash it 1 Q . Dopsn ' t. say t o d o i t. immediately. doe a it? l1 A . Well, I don' t know. T t may say - - If they 1 4 wash 1h e s kin - i n c a s e of c. o n t. a c t. - - in case of t `5 contact. wash off the s k 1 n ; in case of contact - - 1 6 Q Yeah. l 7 A . - - w a s h It off. 18 Q . And by that., you meant, t o nay, "In case of 19 contact, lamed La to 1 y wash oil: the skin"? 20 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, he said what he 2 t said. 22 A . 1 -- t. h e s e a r e t. h e words I said. ?.:i Q. (Hy Mr. fiacey) Well., what I'm trying to ? 4 find out is: Do you read that. 2lS A. What C say here, "Do not haveprolonged NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024450 / 4 -1 I e x [jo 3 u r o . IE c onUrl:, wash It o E E . " 2 Q. And you think that, should be done 1 Immediately, correct? 4 A . Essentially .... I'm not agreeing with w h a t. '5 you indicated, that you go around night hours with 6 it on during the work day. 7 Q. Weil, that's what. I'm trying to E i n<1 out. a A. Oh, you better believe this is my intent. 9 Q. Lt was your intent that they immediately 1 0 wash? 11 A. If one contacts it -- if this happens, wash l 2 it off:. 1 3 Q . Immediately? 1. 4 A, t would -- I would say that is this is 1 f> what 1 myself would do. 16 Q. Okay. And as Ear as clothing, was it your 1 7 intention that in the event PCH'a got on clothing l 8 that they should immediately remove that clothing 19 and change into fresh clothing? 2 0 A. Weil, let me read this. Where is this -- 21 Q . It's the s a m e - - 22 A . Oh, all right;. " W a s h o E E the skin w i I: h 2 3 soap and water." It. says "remove." 2 4 Q. yes. And my question - - 2 b A , Now, yes. T agree with you, immediately. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024451 21S I Q. E m m e d i a te I y in what you meant? 2 A. Let me say promptly, without undue delay, 3 reasonable promptness. 4 Q. Which doesn't, mean at the end of a s h i f t. i f 5 some on e -- 6 A . Oh, this is correct, 7 Q. Okay. Okay. a A . This is absolutely correct.. 9 Q Okay. And that's what you intended to 1 0 convey when you wrote these words? 11 A . This i a v i gh t. 1 7 Q Okay. 13 A . Without. - - yes, this is absolute.ly the -l 4 t he intent. 1 L Now, do you want to read about the 16 eye? 17 Q. If you want. to. r don't, have any questions 18 about it; but i you want to go into it, we l l, 19 fine. 20 A. Well, if it gets in the eye, it. is going to 21 be Irritate -- irritating. You can count on it. 22 Hut permanent, damage .... it says, "no permanent 2 3 damage." 24 it. says, "Flush with large amounts of 2 8 water," and then goes on to say, "8 e e the eye NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024452 246 I doctor." 2 Now, here aqai ii, the implication is 3 don't hang around eight hours to tend to this. 4 Promptly, if it qeta in your eye, do something about, 5 it. Wa s h it with o o p i o u 3 amounts - - you'll want to 6 (lo it., bel i eve me. 7 Q. Well, let me ask you about that. You 8 didn't .id vise anyone to see a physician if they got 9 it on their- skin, only if they got it in thrnir eye, t 0 correct? 3 1 MR. CRAWPOHI)! Well - l 2 A . This -is c o r r e c t -- - ) 3 MR. CRAWFORD! Wait. t 4 A. - - on short-term contact yes. 3 f> MR. CRAWFORD: He said, "recommend 16 that they see a physician." I don't see that in 1 7 there. 3 fl THK WJTNKSS: Here. "To relieve the 19 irrLtation, physicians have used" -- well - 20 MR. CRAWFORD: Yeah, but doesn't 21 say -- okay. Ct says what they 2 2 A. "If Askernl" - "flush with large amounts 2 3 of water as with a 1L eye first aid." 2 4 MR. CRAWFORD: So - 25 MR. l.ACRY: "Refer to a physician," do NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024453 ?. 4 7 1 you. ane that, Walt nr. 2 MR. CRAWFORDj Yeah, but 3 THR WITNESS: Yes. 4 MR. CRAWFORD: Oh, you mean it - - it. fi mentions a physician, but it doesn't say qo to one. 6 MR. I.ACRY : Well, it says, "refer to a 7 physician." 0 THR WITNESS t It. nays, "refer to a 9 phya iclan . " 1 0 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Mr. Beniqnus, doesn't l 1 A. Yes. 12 R. --- "refer to a physician" mean qo to a 1 3 d o c. tor? 14 A. Yea. IS MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. 1 6 A . And this ia the meaning of it, yes. 17 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. 1 8 Q. (By Mr. I.acey) Okay. Anythinq else you 19 want to cowment on that? Are you satisfied? 2.0 A . Ho. I'm satisfied. 2 t Q. Okay . 2.2. A . You know what, my meaning is here. There's 2 3 n o use for us to debate this thin<7 -2.4 Q. ] think you're riqht. 2 5 A . - - further. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024454 ^ <( ti I Pardon? 2 Q. I think you're right. That, 'a a matter that. 3 th jury can resolve for us. 4 Let me show you another document, 2 267 5 through 2298. And this i. s "Monsanto Asker a J. 6 Inspection and Maintenance Guide, Revised September, 7 1963 . - Do you seo that on the cover --8 A . Yes. 9 Q. -- where it says "revised"? 1 0 Now, is that a subsequent version to 1 J the ones we've been looking at? i 2 A . C would say so, yes. 13 Q. So, the others must have been written 14 sometime before September, 1963? 1 f> A . Yea . 16 Q. If you would, find the section in that l 7 ravlaod version that d e a L s with the handling 18 procedures and look at. it and tell me whether those 19 are the same a a the ones In the previous nonrevi. sod 2 0 version 21 A. Look 8 the same to me. 2 2 Q Okay . 2 3 A . To me, it - - it's t. h e same. 2 4 Q All right. Now, Let me direct your 2 r> attention to some more Askeral Inspection and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024455 / -1 i I Maintenance Guides. first, r want to show you 2 Document 2450 throuqh 2477. This has qot a 3 difCerent cover on it 4 A . Yea, it. does. 5 Q . -- but is that another version of that same 6 inspection and Maintenance guide that you prepared? 7 A. It encompasses it, yes, pi us there is more 8 information in this. It's an it has addition to, 9 expansion of, enlargement of. 1 0 And t fie date - do you have the date !. I this? 1 2 Q- Wei J , 1 was q oin q to ask you about that. L 3 A . I won id say 1975 . 1 4 Q. 1 9 7 5? l 5 A . I think that 's the date. 16 Q. Okay. I ' v e qot. one - 1 7 A . I can't read It there. The date isn't on 1 8 here. It's blocked off there. Rut. that, I think 19 do we have any other copy of! that? 20 Q. I've qot. some other copies that indicate' 2 l they were revised. T have one that indicates it was 2 2 revised in March of '75, and another one indicating 2 3 it was revised in August o f '7 6. Hut this one 24 apparently is not the revised one. 2 5 Now, i wondered if maybe you could NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024456 /. 0 L help me try to date this. Were were you involved 2 in this? 3 A . I was n o t t h e j: e . 4 Q. When this wa a done? A . When t h i s was done . 6 Q. E see. Bo, the Language in this document 7 ia sometime after your retirement in 1974? 8 A . Co rroct. 9 (). Okay. Were these inspection and I. 0 malntenaneo guides that we've previously looked at, 1 ] in particular1 the one that, was revised in September l 2 of 1963, the one that remained in use until the time 3 3 t h a t. you ret i r e <1V 3 4 A. Yes. 1 don't know of anything other. L`i Q. Okay. Let me - - let me get that copy back 3 f. from y o u. 1 7 So, if I understand correctly, the 18 document marked 2267 through 2398 was the As ke ra 1 -- 1 9 "Monsanto Askerai Inspection and Maintenance 2 0 Guide" - 2 1 A . I think the w i r c- broke . 2 2 Q. (Jh-oh . f.et'3 -- Let me see if L can help 23 von get t. h a t. hooked bark together here. 1 think it. 2A just popped out o your holder. ?S A. Yeah. Oh, I see. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024457 2. b l L Q . There you <Jo . 2 A. Thank you. 3 Q. Let me -- let me q o back anti ask that, 4 question, and Jet. met have the document back ho we <5 can q e t it c I. ear . 6 A. (Witness complies) 7 Q. It T understand your testimony, then, the 8 "Monsanto Ask oral Inspection and Maintenance Guide" 9 revised September, 1963, Document No. 2267 through 1 0 2 2 98, was t.lie document that Monsanto made available 1 l about its transformer Askeral. from 1963 until your 1 2 r e 1.1 re* e n t. in 1 9 7 4 ? 13 A. (Witness nods head) 1 4 Q. Is that correct? l5 A. I would say that is correct. 1 8 Q. And, then, the document that I've shown L 7 you, another updated "Monsanto Inspection" -- i n AskeraJ Inspection and Maintenance Guide, Document 19 2450 through 2477, is an updated revision that 20 didn't come out. until after- you h a d 1 t- f t. Monsanto in 21 1974? 2 2 A . This is correct. . 2 2 Q. And you didn't have anything to do with 2A updatinq that inspection and maintenance guide? 2.2 A . Right. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024458 ; -i 2 1 Q. And, then, whn we coe to the "Monsanto 2 Trans foner A a If e r a 1 1 napectj on and MaintoTiance 3 Guide," revised March, 1975, Document 24L through 4 2 68, that's a revision of the one I've just, shown 5 you, but, again, prepared after your retirement, 6 correct? 7 A. Correct. a Q. And, then, when we come -- 9 A. This has the date on it. 1 0 Q . Yes, it does. 11 A . Yeah. 1 7. Q . That's a revision of the one - L3 A . Oh, T. see. 1 4 Q. - - that, doesn't, have a date. 15 A. All right. Well, is it? Weil 1 6 Q. T believe it. is. l 7 A. Yeah, it seems to be. 1 B Q. You'll note that the first one doesn't have 19 the "H" in the number. 7 0 A. Doesn't have an "R" in what number? 2 l Q. Let me show y o u here. 77 A . Oh , a 1 1 r i (| h t. . All right.. You're 2 3 looking. in and th is is 3 H - R . 74 Q You ' 1 1 see this is known as both the No 2 5 TC/PF-38 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024459 /' ^ I A . R iqht . ? Q. -- and t. h e one that was revised .in March of 3 1975 la IC/PF-38-R 4 A . This is riqht. 5 Q And then Jet me show you the last one. 6 "Monsanto Trans former Askerai Inspection and 7 Maintenance Gtilde," Document 2478 through 2805 B You'll note it has the same bullet, in number. 9 T C/ P F- 3 8 -- -- ] 0 A . Riqht. , R-2. I l Q - - but it'3 R-2 and shows it was -J 2 A . ' 76 . 13 Q. . - revised A u q u s t , '76. 1 4 A . Rxactly. 1 b Q . So, all three of those last ones that all 16 have t. h < different cover on them -- could you just 1 7 hold one of t.hohe up so the camera can nen what the L 8 covet* looks like? 19 A . (Witness complies) 20 Q. Those "Transformer A a k e r al Inspection and 2 1 Maintenance Guides" were all produced after 19/4, 2 2 when yli retired? 2 3 A . This is riqht.. 2 4 Q Okay. Fine. And you, then, wouldn't know 2b who put. in the information on toxicoloqy and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024460 / .a I dv#<i to Ioijy In those* documents? 2 A . No . .3 Q. You 4 A . I wasn't there. 5 Q You wouldn't claim any responsibility o r 6 it. at all; is t h a t. c orre c t. V 7 A . I wasn't there. 0 Q- Okay. Well, T guess what. I'm asking you 9 is: You weren't working on a revision of that i o document before your retirement or any-thing? 11 A . No . 12 Q Okay. Let. me show you some more documents 13 that relate to transformers and A s k e r a 1 . 1 4 First, let me show you a document 15 called, "When Specifying Transformers, Here's How To 16 Get More Money and" ..... "More Performance and Save t 7 Money," a document 0/FF--14, with No. 2 411 through 1 8 2 4 2 5. 19 Have you seen that, document before? 20 K. Not in this form. I've seen It - 21 Q. Did you -2 2 A . -- in a different form. 23 Q- Okay. And what, is different? The cover? 2 4 A . The -- the -- not only the cover; but it 2 5 was a folder, about this large, t. h a t unfolded NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024461 /. -> -) i Q 1 think If: you ' l L look at that, that may be 2 a copy of such a document, that did unfold because an 3 you look inside ~4 A. It has to be.. 5 Q . Okay. When this thing was originally in ft Monsanto's manufacture, it. was somet. hinq that, folded 7 out into a. longer sheet? R A . Yea. 9 Q. Okay. Does that appear t.o be a copy of l 0 that folder that you've previously seen? 1 1 A . Right.. l 2 Q. Did you have -1 3 A. Ye3. 1 4 Q. anything to do with preparing that t 5 loldnr? ] ft A. T know when it. was prepared . And this was 17 prepared by a writer in the advertising department, 1 fl and I'm aware of this. It. has some of the* same L 9 statements in it that our maintenance guide has in 20 it. 21 Q. Let. me ask you to look at the page that's 2 2 labeled - - or the section that's labeled "Why 2.3 Askeral," close to the front.. 2 4 A. Oh, yes, "Why Askeral." 2 b Q. It. says there "For almost. 40 years Askeral NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024462 <b 1 transformers," and goes onto describe it. That 2 would indicate, would it riot., that this document, was 3 written around 19/0? 4 A . No. I appreciate your analysis here. If 5 you wi l i -- and this is what I was looking at - it 6 says "30 years" elsewhere. 7 Q Well, yeah. E n the documents you wrote in 8 the early f> 0 ' s , it. said 3 0 years? 9 A . Go does this. 1 0 Q Well, here it nays "40 years." l 1 A . C do not disagree. 1 7. Q. You think that's 13 A . That's right. 1 4 Q -- a typographical error? l 5 A . This is lightweight. It's a leaflet, is 1 6 is what, it is, put. out. by a writer in the in our 1 7 advertising department. ] 8 Here, "There are many examples of over 19 30 years of trouble-free operation," 30 years. Now, 70 here, 40 years is used. This --- this is nothing 21 critical . C t has no significance -2 2 Q I understand. 2 3 A . - - is what E am saying to you. 2 4 Q Well, I'm -j v) s t. trying to figure out. when 25 the document was written. And if, in fact, it were NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024463 2b 7 1 true that tor Almost 4!) years Askeral transformers 2 had been used then this document, would have been 3 written in the early Seventies or around that? 4 A . 1 think you're, r i q h t. . 5 Q. Okay. Do you believe it was, in fact, 6 written around 1970? 7 A . No . B Q. When do you believe it was written? 9 A. This was written in the mid l 9 6 Q ' a . 1 0 Q. Okay. So, this is a little bit. of l L overstatement when i. t says 40 years? 1 7. A. It'3 an aberration. 13 Q. Okay. Now, there are strike that. 1 4 What was the purpose, of this pamphlet? l 5 A. bet's look at the pictures - - 1 6 Q. Okay. L 7 A. -- If we may. 1. H Q. Be happy to. 19 A. Hare's a build inq similar to what we have 20 where we are. Here's another one. Here is a 2 1 a hopping center. It - if I miqht - am r qolnq too 22 fa3t? 7 3 Q, No. Fine. 2 A A. Herr is - - is this a school? This is a 2 5 school, evidently. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024464 28H I Q Okay . 2 A . Has the flag,. This is - 3 Q. Looks like a space needle in Seattle or 4 somethinq. 5 A- Yes. It's a commercial area. Here we have 6 some more. You'll see here a hospital - 7 Q. Uh-huh. 8 A. - hiqh-rise; again, shopping center; 9 industrial load center; schools -10 Q. llh-huh. l 1 A. ..... wo were right on that. 1 2 That's the end of t. he pictures. 11 Now, here's a transformer. 1 4 Q Right.. 18 A . This is a leaflet, a flier, that. indicates 16 t; he use. the popular use, and Location of Askeral 1 7 transformers. What this is saying, as you can see 18 from the pictures, the place, the location, of use 19 of an Askeral transformer, in general it is used in 20 a populated -- people - populated area where 21 judgment has been made that warrants spending the 2 2 increased money t o have a transformer that; is fire 2 3 resistant. Now, that, is t. h e overall premise for the 2 4 application of A s k e r a L transformer'3. I could add 2 8 other places. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. . STLCOPCB4024465 I (J h - h u h . 2 A. Now, the purpose of this is to go to makers 3 of As It era 1 transformers, just as you have there, 4 A 11 i 8-C ha 1 aer a . They qot. this, too, as did other 5 transformer makers , Insurance people would, qet 6 this. Architects and contractors would get this. 7 They build these buildings. The engineering a departwent, the maintenance department, the design 9 department, what have you, of industrial places; ] o such as, the automotive industry; such as, flour 11 mills, places that are dusty, cement plants, and so } 2 forth, places where there is anticipated to be water 13 exposure, this kind of t h i n g. 1 4 This is for general information and 15 circulation. If* Q. Is it fair to say that this was designed 17 not only to go to people who manufactured i a transformers, but, also, to people who might specify 19 tranaforaara? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And the goal was to encourage those people 2 2 to specify Askeral or PC FI transformers in locations 2 3 that. Monsanto and others thought, were qood ones for 2 4 PCR transformers? 2 5 A. Where Monsanto -- wait a minute. I'm going NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024466 ^ Cl U 1 to chanijo this, 2 Q. Peel free. 3 A . Where Monsanto was informed that the 4 consensus of people who had .... were i rt position to *5 select transformers did, indeed, select Askoral 6 transfomers arid install them in those locations. 7 And some of those are represented here. a Q. Well, you can agree with me that in some of 9 these particular uses, there were other non-PC8 j o products that, might be competing to be the 11 transformer selected by, say, an architect for a l ? particular use, can't you? 13 A. In those applications that are depicted 1 4 here, 1 would not. put a mineral oil transformer, 15 neither would the insurance people --1 6 Q. Well, I guess 17 A. -- to give an example. 18 (). I guess I'm trying t.o find out. whether this 19 document warn designed to put out information that 2 0 Monsanto thought was appropriate to get. architects, 2 t builders, and owners to say that they wanted Askoral 2 2 transformers. 2 3 A. Correct. And it stems from our knowing 2 4 that this is, indeed, what was in vogue and was 2 S being done. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024467 /n) t Q . I understand. 2 A. Correc1 . 3 Q. And one of the reasons Monsanto wou j cl be 4 intorested In people specifying Askeral transformers b is because Monsanto made all the P CH ' s t hat, went 6 into those transformers? 7 A. I think that is obvious. 8 Q. And the more Asker a l transformers that were 9 specified, the more PCB ' s Monsanto could make and l 0 sell, correct? 1 1 A . Cor r e.c. t.. t 2 Q. Okay. And that's why you would be 1 3 interested in putting out. literature to encouraqe l 4 people to use Askoral transformers? 1 b A. Correct. 1 6 Q. Okay, Now, there -- in this literature is 1 7 a discussion not only of Askoral transformers, but IB what. Monsanto believed were the advantages of 19 Aakerai transformers over other transformers that 2 0 might be used, correct? 2 1 A. Oh, I'll say ''yes." And we didn't think a 2.2. mineral oil transformer would have any advantage. 2.3 q. Right. And you even compared them to 2.4 dry-type transformers? 2b A. Correct. Now we artj in gear. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024468 / (> / I Q. Okay. 2. A. Right. 3 Q. And one ran compare the fire capabilities, 4 noise capabilities, the need to build a vault to b maintain .... f> A. Water exposure, dust exposure, and hazards 7 l:ro that sources in the case of a open dry-type. 8 In other words, really there are places where one 9 should not install an open dry-type transformer. 1 0 Q. Okay. Now, there are potential problems l 1 with Asket'al transformers in places like office 1 7. buildings and schools, are there not? 13 A. Any piece of electrical apparatus can be -1 4 no piece of electrical apparatus, transformer, no 18 matter what it is, that doesn't have something to be 16 concerned about. 1 7 Is this what you were asking? 18 Q. Yeah. I guess just, in view of this 19 advertising literature .... 7.0 A. They can all explode, for example. ?.l Q. Yeah. And - - - and the explosion of a PCH 2 2 transformer can cause problems, just like the 7 3 explosion of an oil transforme r.? 2 4 A. Or of a dry - type transformer. 2 S Q. Cert, ainly. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024469 2. O .1 I A . They could cause more problums . 2 Q. Well , are you fa m i 1 i a r with the transformer 3 that exploded in the office building in Binghamton, 4 New York? b A . I heard of t hat.. That. was after I left.. 6 Q. Hut you'v e heard about that problem? 7 A . T ' ve heard abou t. that . 3 Q A n d do you know what happened up there? 9 A . In a general way. yes. It was -- the to transformer exploded . r t was in a -- this was a 1 1 very rare incident of -- of a failure. Now -l 2 Q. Hut it contaminated the whole building with J 3 PC Ft'a, didn't it? 1 4 A. You said "exploded." 1 don't know that it 15 exploded. was not in the area on this. 1 6 Q. I understand. What have you heard? i 7 A. There was a failure, let me say. 1 8 Q. Yea. And that resulted in the building 19 being contaminated with PCB's, did it not? 2 0 MR. CRAWFORD: Just tell him what you 21 know, Mr. Renignus. Answer his question. 22 A. Well, the building was contaminated with 2 3 PCH . 2 4 Q. (Fly Mr. Lacey) And that building stands 25 vacant to this day because of that problem, doesn't NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024470 2. h 4 t i t? 2 MR. CRAWFORD: If you know. 3 A. t don't know. T. have not - - this is After 4 aytiie. b Q. (Ry Mr. Lacey) You really haven't, followed 6 what's happened to PCB'3 since your retirement? 7 A. I have not. And the kind of incident that, 8 you're talking about is very rare. The incident of 9 failure, as judged by the Edison Electric Institute l 0 when I wa3 involved, was of the order of a few 1 J hundredths of a percent per year, which is, indeed, l 2 very low. 1 3 So, T do know that, in later years, 14 there was thi3 failure. You said in -~ in New 1 5 York ? 16 Q. Binghamton, New York, 17 A. Binghamton, New York. 18 Q. Okay. You just haven't tollowed up on what 19 happened Ln thing3 like that? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. In this particular literature about 2 2 specifying transformers, the reference is made to 2 3 normal good housekeeping. What is "normal good 2 4 housekeeping" as that term Is used in a document 2 b like this? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024471 /. b d I A. I would nay "normAL good h o u a e Ic e a p i n g " 2 cans that if there ig.a apiJJ, in accordance with 3 good housekeopinq -- and it says in this 4 literature -- put. sawdust down, soak it. up in 5 sawdust or rags or what have you. 6 W h a 1 I'm saying is don't spill it. 7 around. And if it gets on your clothes, it 8 encompasses this. Reasonable, care and cleanliness. 9 Chan eye your clothes if it spills onto you, yes. 1 0 (). Change your clothes immediately, would that l t be what you'd think "good housekeeping" would be? 1 2 A. That's what. I would -- what I would say. 13 yes . 1 4 Q. Well-IS A. Don't continue to wear that clothing. It US doesn't mean you have to jump up, you know, and got 1 7 all excited. Put it. does say if it spills on your 18 clothes, change it. 19 Q. Okay. Now, you're not saying this 20 particular document we've -just been looking at, 21 "When Specifying Transformers Here's How t.o Get More 2 2 Performance And Have Money," talks about changing 23 clothes or anything like that? 2 4 A. I don't know. 2 S Q. Weil, do you want, to take a look at it? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024472 /6 i A, I don ft know, 2 Q. I don't, think it. says anything like that, in 3 there, 4 THK VIDKOGRAPHKR i Kxc.use ine. 1 need <5 to g o off: the record. 6 MR. CRAWFORD: Do you want to take a 7 break for lunch? I1' a 12:00 - 0 THE VIDKOGRAPHKR: The time is 11:57 9 a.a. 1 0 (Noon Recess) l l THE VIDKOGRAPHKR: We are now back on ] 2 the record. The t.ie is 1:03 p.n. 13 Q. (Hy Mr. Lacey) Mr. Benujnus, let me hand 1 4 you a (?ain a document we were looking at before the 15 break. Document 2411 through 2425, Document O/FF-14 16 in Monsanto's nomenclature, entitled "When 17 Specifying Transformers, Hero's How to Get More 10 Performance and Save Money," and ask you whether 19 that document, anywhere in it, indicates that it a 20 person gets PC'R-contai n.i ng Aakeral fluid on them 21 they should change their clothing immediately. 22 A. 1 don't think it does. I paged through 2 3 it. I don't find that. 2 4 Q. Now, did you have anyt.hing to do with the 2 5 writing of the language in this document that you're NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024473 267 I looking at? 2 A. Our advertising writer wrote this. 3 Q. You didn't ruview it I:or accuracy or 4 anything else? i; A. Well, it's a very light document. There's 6 no technology in this thing at ail. Bo, I may not 7 have been involved in it.. T know what he was doing B was sending out a loaf let to try and got the name 9 Askeral and show a picture of an Askeral t 0 transformer, call that to the attention of people 1 1 who do use transformers. That was the purpose of 12 i t . 13 It's not. a technical thing. It's no 1 4 technology in it. Thore's no toxicology, ] b dermat-oloqy, or medical. It's just a very nebulous 16 kind of a thing to, hopefully, enhance the 1 7 popularity of Askeral. At. least, people would have 18 heard the name. 19 Q. Are you telling me t.he document is not 20 necessarily accurate? 21 A. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying it's 2 2 not a heavyweight document and it doesn't get 2 3 into ~ other than comments, general comments, a b o u t. 2 4 Askar els. There are many examples of over over 2 !f> 3 0 years of t. rouble free operation, makes statements NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024474 26H 1 Like that. E would agree with. E t says A s k e r a l 2 fluids are fire resistant.. 3 MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. B e n i g n u s , iC yea'll 4 try to just answer his question, we'll move along a 5 Little faster if: you <lo that. I think he'd 6 appreciate that; and we would, too. 7 A. What was it? fl Q. (By Mr. Lacey) I,et let me ask you to 9 take a look now at the Document 2332 through 2346 1 0 and ask if that's another copy of this same document l l called "When Specifying Transformers, Hero's How" - 1 2 A. Yes. 1 3 Q. .... "To Get. More Performance And Save l 4 Money"? it; A . Yes, .it is. 16 Q. Okay. Now, let mo show you some more 17 documents. Let me show you Document 2426 through 18 2437, also entitled "Here's How to Get More 19 Performance and Save Money When Specifying 20 Transformers," a similar title to the preceding one, 2 1 and ask you to take a look at. that briefly. 2 2 A . E ' v e Looked at it. 2 3 Q. Now, that, document, has on it. at. the front, 2 4 an indication that it was a new document created In 2 5 August of 1 967 ; is that, correct.? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024475 26 9 L A. E would think that that'a about corrnct, 2 Q . Okay. 3 A. I don't know where that, comes from, but T 4 would agree. f> Q That handwriting was on t he document, when 6 it came to me Prom Monsanto. E don't know who wrote 7 that there, but that, is what's written on t. h a t 8 document. 9 A. I would agree with that. 1 would 1 9 Q. And if you turn to the inside page of the 1 1 docniwent., it talks about - - I think you need to l 2 maybe turn one more page. 1 3 A . Okay . 14 Q. Or maybe that's the page. No, turn one 15 more page. If. A. (Witness complies) I 7 Q. It talks about Asker a L transformers having 1 8 been used for 37 years? 19 A. Y e , I noticed this. Looking at it; but you 20 look further back, you get back to 30 years. This 21 is A little bit loose. 2 2 Q, Well, what T was going t. o look at, I mc!an , 2 3 if this document. in Pact, was new in 1967, would 37 24 years be correct.; that is. from 1930 to 19 6 7? 2 5 A. Well, that would be 37 years. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024476 ?70 1 U Okay. 2 A . Rut whether that, is acrurate, 1 don't, .1 know. You run into the statement back hero,, 10 4 years of trouble free service. 5 Q. Right. 6 A. I'd hat. e to say there; was seven year's of 7 troubled service. 8 Q. I understand. Look back at the back of the 9 document. Do you find a code number on -- anywhere ] 0 at. the back that helps you tell when it was 1 l produced? 1 2 A. The thing I could decipher here is '67, if t 1 tha t is it. 1 4 Q. Yeah. That, would be consistent, with the t '5 n o t: e o n the front? 16 A. It would, and consistent, with these other t 7 things. know when this thing was put out. 1 8 Q. Now, who was responsible; for putting out. L 9 that document? 20 A. The same writer. And it's the 3 ame tenor 21 oC things. 2 2 Q . And was it. intended for the same market, 2.1 people who - 2 4 A. Yes, same purpose. 21 Q. To encourage people to use Askeral NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024477 -d < ]. 1 transformers? 2 A. To cal] Askera la to their attention; and, 3 hopefully, that it. would leave a favorable 4 impression, yes. f. Q. Then the whole point is to get them to 6 specify A s k e r a l transformers? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q. So that there will be more sold and more 9 demand for Monsanto's L5Cfl Askerals? 1 0 A. That's what, we said before, right. l L Q. Okay. Now, this document also talks about 1 2 Askoral transformers and handling them, does it not. 13 whr e it s a y 3, "Let ' 3 get all the facts on the 1 4 table?" Can you f 5 nd that. section of the l 5 A . What page ... . o h , what page is it? 1 6 Q. It. appears to be on Page L. But I'm not l 7 sure if I've (jot an exact duplicate of yours or not, 1 8 but t.he page on the document, seems to be Page 8. 19 A. And -- and what was your question, again? 20 Q . There's a section called, I. e t.'s get. a J ] 21 the facts on the table. if 2 2 A . Oh , yeah, I -- I have i t. . 2 3 Q. And there it i n d i c a t e s that A s k e r a l f '1. il ids 2 4 have been manufactured handled and used safely for 2 S 37 years; is that correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024478 / /2 I A . Yes, that's wh.it that says . 2 Q. And, a q a i n , that, would be consistent with .3 the period from 1930 to 1967, c o r r n c t ? 4 A . Right. . b Q. And when you hear a phraae like "They've 6 been naniifactured, handled, and uaed safely for 3 7 7 yearn," that, would imply people haven't gotten 8 injured a a a result ot them, correct? 9 A. That, ia the implication, yes. l 0 Q. And then there's this diacusa-ion again 1 1 about, standard normal good housekeeping practices, 1 2 c o r r net:? i 3 A . R i q h t. . 1 4 Q . The same sort, of standard good housekeeping l 8 practices that you would use with other industrial 1 6 materials, right? I. 7 A. Yes, that's what it say3. 18 Q. Doesn't, indicate any -- any precautions are 19 needed with PCB's other than what you would use with 20 other industrial materials, correct? 21 A. That's what it says. 22 Q. Okay. Now, let me hand you another 2 3 document, with the same title, "Here's How to Get 2.4 More Performance and Save Money When Specifying 2 5 'transformers'' -- this is Document 2 438 through NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024479 L 2 4 4 9 and iisk L f this is the same document, only 2 an updated version, that, according to the code, 3 would have been produced in June of 1971. 4 MS. OLKSKN: What, were those pages 5 again? f'm sorry. 6 MR. CRAWFORD: What's the beginning 7 page there, Mr. Henignus? 8 THK WITNRSS: This? 9 MR. CRAWFORD: Yeah, right here? 1 0 2438. l L MS. Ot.KSRN: Okay. 1 2 A. Well, here you cone, into this Timber we 13 don't know of 71. I'm a bit confused by this, say, 1 4 19 7 1 . 15 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Let me show you right 16 hero -- I believe there's a code nuiber right here, 1 7 which indicates -18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. -- 0 6-71 - 20 A . -6 . 21 Q. Yes. That would indicate June of '7], 2 2 wouldn't .it? 2 3 A. I cannot say this. T'm confused with that. 24 one. 2 5 Q. Okay . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024480 //4 1 A,. I don't know if that's -- that strange '71 2 we've been running into on all of these things or 3 whether maybe the year here is '66, which is -4 correlates with the time these -- which is in 5 correlation with the time that these things wore put 6 out.. 7 Q Okay. Well, let me show you something else 8 on that same page. We have a list of the district 9 sales offices for all divisions, do we not? l 0 A . Yes. 1 1 Q. And down at the bottom of the section that l 2 has t h a t list there's the notation 4/71, isn't 1 3 there? 14 A . 1 see t. his, correct. 15 And that indicates that that list of 16 district, sales offices is as they existed in April I 7 o 1971, is it not? 18 A . 1 would say so. 19 Q. So, we know that the document is after 20 Apri1 of '71, then? 21 A . That is what it. - I would have to agree 2 2 with that -2.3 Q. Okay . 2 4 A . -- based on the numbers. A ml I do not 2. S disagree with that. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024481 21 I Q . V ra ri h , And , so, it w o u id r.crtdin ly not b e 2 illogical, then, that it could have been published 3 in 6-71, as the code won Id indicate, two months 4 after they prepared the list, of district offices? `5 A . Excuse me? 6 Q . The code number, the 1o n g code number, not 7 the district office number, but the long code number fl at. the bottom of that, same page is 0 6 -- names t. h e 9 numbers 0 6-71 , does it not? 1 0 A . I th ink so, yes. I. 1 Q And that could be indie a t i v e of June of 71, 1 2 wouldn' t. it? 1 3 A . Oh , yes . 1 4 Q. A nd it would make sense that this c.ould L 5 have been published in June of '71, after the 1 6 district, sales office list was prepared in April of L 7 '71? 18 A . Yes. 19 Q. Or sometime thereafter? 2 0 A . Yes. 21 Q. Okay. 2 2 A . T t. must, have been a revision of e a r 1 .i e r . 2:3 Q. Exactly, a revision of the document we 2.4 first, saw that, was prepared in August of '67, 2 8 correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024482 2 /6 I A. Yea. 2 Q. Okay . 3 A . And this is a revision of that in '71. 4 Q. Let me show you a Document No. 2 26`5 through 5 2266 and ask if Y on can identify that. document.. 6 A . Yea. 7 Q. Who prepared that document? 8 A. The same person. 9 Q. Okay. Somebody in this advertising group? t 0 A. Yes, an advertising writer. 1 ] Q. Do you know when that document was l 2 prepared? 13 A . It's - -- pardon? l 4 Q. Do you know when that document was 15 prepared? 16 A. I would say this one was prepared in the l 7 approximate time period ot mid '66, as are these, 1 8 ot.her than what you've shown here, cone up with a 19 revision of one that was prepared. So, I put that 2 0 into the time frame. Whether it's a revision or 2 1 not, this, I don't know. L don't see the -- the 22 date of issue. 2 3 MR. CRAWFORD: David, let me iust 24 can I ask just a few questions to get this straight, 2 5 because I'm not. sure that what's gone on here has NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024483 2// I been dead accurate. 2 MR . I.ACHY : We] 1 .... .1 MR. CRAWFORD: E don't see any 4 difference between 24 26, that, series, and 24HR 5 except that there La attached to it a list o E 6 district, offices. Ho, to say this is - - 7 MR. fiAOFiY: It may well be another fl reprinting, Walter. 9 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. 1 0 MR. LACKY : That's what we've seen. l l here are various reprint Lngs -- -- 1 2 MR . CRAWFORD: Right.. But you said 11 "revision r 14 MR . LACEY: - with no changes. l 5 MR . CRAWFORD: It's really not a ] 6 revisi on. It's the same actually the same l 7 document exactly . The only difference i s i t ' 8 got 1H the offices attached to it. 19 MR. LACRY: We l L , which is a 2 0 difference between the t.wo documents. 2 1 MR. CRAWFORD: The only difference. 2 2 FHi t. the document cou ] d be the same, just with the 2.5 offices at lachedon. 2 4 MR. LACKY: No problem with that. 2 5 MR. CRAWFORD: And the offices could NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024484 27 I hdvo been what would bo revised in '71. So, it 2 could be the same thing. 3 MR. LACRY : Rut reprinted in '71. 4 TBK WITNESS: Reprinted. The word 5 "rev i. h e d " - 6 MR. CRAWFORD! Well, not. even 7 reprinted, but maybe sent out. And -- well, at 8 least we know the addition of the offices was 9 apparently '71. 1 0 MR. LACEY: Exactly. L 1 MR. CRAWFORD: That's all we can 1 2 really say. 13 MR. l.ACEY: That's fine. And 1 4 t hat's -1 S THE WITNESS: Well, that's an 16 interesting point, too, isn't it? 1 7 MR. LACEY: Yeah. That would be 18 fine. 19 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) That would mean that 2 0 Monsanto, In 1971, is giving out the very same 21 information it gave out. when the document, was fi r s t. 2 2 printed in '67? 2 3 A. Yes. One would have to - 24 Q. And certainly if there were a ehange in the 2 b information that. Monsanto knew between 196 7 and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024485 I 19/1, it would be* appropriate to modify the 2 documents to incorporate new information before it 3 was 3ant out, wouldn't it? 4 MR. CRAWFORD: We]], if you know it. 5 w a a sent out in '71, Mr. Hen hjnua, just concentrate 6 on what you know. 7 A. Well, 1 don't, know. All I -- I'm trying to 8 follow along here. I told you, E'm somewhat 9 confused with that one. l 0 Q. (Ry Mr. r.acey) Well, you -all didn't 1 J prepare t.hcise books to have them sit on the shelf, L 2 did you? 13 A . I didn't., no . l 4 Q. They were prepared to be given to people 1 r. who would be specifying transformers? 16 A. Yes . 1 7 Q. And, so, if you add a list, of district, 18 sales offices to a document and print it, you're 19 preparing to have it. sent, out., correct? 20 MR. CRAWFORD: ff that's, in fact. 21 what happened. 2 2 A . If that is what happened, yes . 2 3 Q. (Ry Mr . f.acey ) Well, let me -- Let me jus t; 2 4 make sure what. -- 2 5 A . This here -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024486 /au 1 MR, CRAWFORD; Those are exactly the 2 a ae here, apparently. 3 A. You see, what's bein<j said, that t h i. 3 4 literature is exactly the game - - you know, :: o n e h o d y 5 could have punched this addition onto this thing. 6 Let me say this I'm pretty sure I'm 7 correct of this - - these folders that these are 0 see, this didn't, go out in this form. They went, out 9 in a folder. Those folders did not have added to 1 0 t. h e t h i a . 1 1 Q. (Fly Mr. Lacey) So, you're telling me when l 2 Monsanto gave me that document as an entire 1 3 document. -- - L 4 A . think that's a - - 1 5 Q. ~ - they made a mistake? 16 A. t think this is an aberration. 1 7 Q. Okay. 1 0 A. I really do. This is why I am telling you 19 I am confuted with it. I think this is an 2 0 aberration because 3 know that this that came out 2 l did not have this with it. 2 2 MR. LACEY: Walter - 2 3 A. So, how this got on there, I do not know. 24 MR. LACEY: Let me make it clear on 2 5 the record: We've got a problem with documents with NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024487 ?. a i 1 this witness saying that's not the way the doe omenta 2 case, and what y o u - a ] 1 presented to me was that 3 right there as a document of Monsanto. 4 MR. CRAWFORD: David, 1 don't know 5 what I: h e situation .... whether that was attached to 6 it or not.. I mean, Mr. Henignus would - - 7 MR. f.ACKY: Mr. Benign us is 30(b)(6) 0 corporate representative on the advertising of 9 Monsanto on dielectrics. 1 0 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) And that's advertising on l l dielectrics, is it not, Mr. Henignus? 1 2 A. In t hat category, yes. 13 Q. And you've here as a designated 1 4 representative of the company today telling me that 15 that document isn't really a copy of: the way the 16 Monsanto documents were in their file, correct? t 7 A. t - this is my (opinion of this thing. 1 fl Q. Okay. And you're the designated 19 representative of the company and saying that? 20 A . I am saying that. 2 1 Q. Okay. And T can rely on what you're 2 2 saying? 2 3 A . You can. 2 4 MR. CRAWFORD: Let me -2 5 A. t don't know how this -- I cannot account NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024488 82 I IT o r this. 2 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Okay. it. doesn't make .3 aanse; Lt shouldn't bo that way. Ls that correct? 4 A. It doesn't make sense to me. You don't 5 fTind this on any of: the other 6 Now, I think there'3 something in 7 addition to this. Let's look It there, whatever. 1 8 don't know. 9 Q. Those are the only two documents of that l 0 particular type they've given us, and one has it and 1 J one doesn't. 1 2 A. Well, this was in the time frame. 13 Q. Now, when you're talking about "this," 14 you're talking about t.he Document 20 - - let me look 15 here --- 2265, 2266. 1 6 A . uh-huh . 1 7 q. And that was --- that was - - when you say 18 "in the time frame," you're talking about in the mid 3 9 1960s? 20 A. Mid 196 0 ' s . 21 Q. Okay. 2 2 A. That's where 1 would put. this thing. And 2 3 there is there 1967. 2 4 1 stand confused by this. 2 5 Q. And the confusion arises from the fact that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024489 28 3 1 the document that Monsanto has produced u a Ln thi.3 2 case that's numbered 24 38 through 24 4 9 doesn't look 3 in its entirety like the documents you r e e a 1l 4 Monsanto having? A. It -- I re cal] -in my opinion. I could 6 be wrong. T don't know. 7 Q. Okay. Well, you're the representative of 8 the company; so, we're going to have to rely on what 9 you say about, it. 1 0 A. So, T can't be wrong, huh? 11 Q. That's that's about what it amounts to. l 2 They're representing that you're the person who 13 knows. 14 A. Well ~~ IS MR. CRAWFORD: I think he's a person 16 with knowledge about this. I don't know - 1 7 MR. LACRY : Well, Jet me make 5 t. very 18 clear. I asked for the company to designate the 19 person with the greatest knowledge so I wouldn't 20 have somebody cooing in and saying - 21 MR. CRAWFORD: Well - 22 MR. LACRY : - "Oh, he didn't know 2 3 what he was talking about.." 24 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, he is a person 2S with knowledge. And whatever -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. STLCOPCB4024490 ^84 t A. That is my boat judgment. 2 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Okay. .1 A . If I ' m wrong, L stand b e i n g corrected 4 and -- 5 Q Let we show you anot. her document, now, 6 called "The Care and Gvoomimj of Askoral Transformer 7 Fluid," Document 2506 through 2521 and 8 A . Right. 9 Q -- - can you tell me about that? l 0 A . A fid w 11 i Look for what do you think? 1 ] I do not. f i n d what they have there. I L 2 do find t hls . 1 3 Q. W h i c h is what? l 4 A . Well, this, now --- or these district 1 5 offices. This is a list. of district. offices . 16 Now, let me Look at thi.3 other one. 1 V That, too, is a list of district offices. 18 However, this gives the street 19 address, at cetera. That one does not. Now, here I 20 find the same -- oh, that's that; one. 2 1 Does that have that, same number on 2 2 it? 2 3 1 don't, know. I'm looking. 2 4 q. tt has a code number on it down there at 2 5 t. h e b o 11. o m . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024491 cl b I A . " Tjitho in (J.8. 2-9/1--056 2 -- 10." r ' m sorry. 2 I-- 3 Q. What ran you t. e 3 3 me about that document? 4 Did you have anything to do with the preparation of; 5 that document. ? 6 A. It's the same man that. - - that, prepared 7 those. a Q. Who was that man who prepared these 9 documents? 1 0 A. Bill Grosse. 11 Q. Rill? 1 2 A. Grosse, G R O R S R. 13 Q. And how was he employed with Monsanto? 14 A. He was the advertising in charge of - - L5 he was the advertising director, I guess you'd ca 11 16 him. Rill Grosse, the advertising director. 17 Q. Now, was he the advertising director for ] 8 PCH'3 or for - 19 A. Hvarythinq. 20 Q. Everything. 21 A. In the -- in the organic division. 22 Q. Where would he get. t he information to go 2 3 into these booklets? 24 A. He would get that, information from 2 l5 excerpts. Co1o r, clarity, and so forth, from the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024492 28 6 I spec iEif'.itioni, for Lnstdnce, E t ' s - - It's called 2 colorless, and it. '3 clear . 3 And ttifin the black color and smaLl 4 carbon particles, that, indicates arcing. He would S have gotten that - - could have (jot ten that out oE 6 that. Maintenance guide t.hat. we looked at. earlier. 7 Dielectric strength is - - these', are? & subjects out. of that maintenance guide. 9 Q. Well, would he cone and talk to a person 1 0 like you to get information to go in there and make l i sure it. was accurate? 1 2 A . Yes , I would say so, that -- that he would 13 d o this on the - - on the technical information. 1 4 Q. Do you - ] fi A . It'S C'ertainly in line wi t.h what we had in 16 the ma i ntonance guide. ] 7 Q Do you recall whet.her Mr. Grosse did 18 consult with you about the Information in that 19 particular piece of literature? 20 A. I don't recall it, 3pcc i. f leal t y . This was 21 a long time ago. Hut. T would assume that, he did 2 2 because he is printing here, publishing, data that 2 3 looks like the data that. - - that l had accumulated. 2 4 Q. There's a lot of technical information, 2 H i sn ' t. there? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024493 7H / 1 A . T h e r e ' 3 tf>chn Lc.il Information. Th is i a 2 what I'm getting at., 3 Q. . And Mr. Crosse wouldn't know all that 4 technical information without the assistance of you. 5 w o u 1. d ho? 6 A . That, is correct.. 7 Q. May E see that just a minute? 8 A. Kit.her the assistance of me and discussion 9 and/or extraction from our Literature. 1 0 Q. This little character that we see on the l 1 front of the book -- can you kind of hold that up so 12 the camera can t. a k e a look a t. that? 13 A. (Witness complies) 1 4 Q. That little character there, was that one 18 of Mr. Grosso's inventions? 1 f> A. Yes, it was. l7 Q. Okay. And was that supposed to that 10 character was supposed to represent PCB's? 19 A. NO. 2 0 Q. What did that -2 l A. That is supposed to draw attention which I 2 2 believe you t. hink it does do, do you? 2.3 Q E don't know. You'll have to tell me . 24 Does i t. draw at.tent.jonV 2 5 A . E think it speaks for itself. NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024494 2aa I Q. Okay. So, that, was Mr. Grosse ' 3 -- 2 A. That's Mr, Grosse, 3 Q. Okay. Now, in this book on "The Care and 4 Grooming of A s k e r a J Transformer Fluid," there in a 5 section that talks about personal care and in die: a tea 6 that t. rana former Aakeral has been made and handled 7 and used for over 30 years without causing toxic or H other ill effects. Where would Mr. Grosse have 9 gotten the information like that? 1 0 A. He would have gotten that out of, probably, 1 l our maintenance guide. 1 2 Q Okay . 13 A . That's my guess. 1 4 (2- I.et. me look at this section with you 15 fly. if I could. In the second sentence, where 1 6 he talks about, personal care, he says that, " Askeral 17 can bo handled in the same manner as insulating i a mineral oil." 19 A . Oh, I can show you where this comes from. 20 Q. Where does th.it come from? 21 A. That, comes from outside of Monsanto. This 2 2 comes from the transformer industry. And you will 2:i see this same wording here j n literature published 21 ox-U.S. in the some of these technical 2 a organizations' publications. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024495 lHS I Q . Okay. Now, h r r* i a - 2 A. That. 5 g , in my opinion, where that came 3 froa. And that's whom thia was -- some of this was 4 extracted from. 5 Q . Rut. this particular document is a Monsanto 6 publication, is it not? 7 A . Yes. a Q. And it's designed to go to various 9 customers of Monsanto? 1 0 A . Yes. 1 1 Q And, in fact, it's des igned to encourage l 2 use of Askeral transformers , is it not? ] 3 A . Right. . 1 4 Q And one of the things that ' s said to 15 encourage the use of Askeral transformers Is that, 16 "AskeraJ can be handled in the same manner as 17 insulating mineral oil," correct? 18 A. Correct.. 1 9 Q. And it indicates that, with regard to skin 20 contact, prolonged skin contact should be avoided 21 because there may be an allergic reaction to 22 Askeral, just like there can be with mineral oil, 2 3 correct? 2 4 A. Where does it say "like there can be 2 5 with" - - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024496 AU 1 Q . "As with miiifiral oil" - 2 A . Oh, yss. Yps . 3 Q - - "them may be 3 o in e penple alli'cijic to 4 Aske r'a 1 . So, prolonged skin contort should b e 5 avoided where possible," 6 A . That. 1 s what. it. says, right.. 7 Q. And I guess if it's not possible to avoid 8 prolonged skin contact, as long a a you're not 9 allergic, you don't have to worry about it. Is It 1 0 what, he's saying? 1 1 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, does it say l 7 that? 1 3 THR WITNESS: It doesn't say that. l 4 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Well .... 15 A. It doesn't, say that.. That's - that's an 16 assumption, [ suppose. He doesn't say that. 1 7 Q. Or does it. indicate or clearly imply that, 18 there are situations where prolonged contact with 19 Askeral cannot be avoided? 20 k. Well, t don't read this. 2 1 Q. Well, it says, "should be avoided where 2 2 possible." Does that indicate there are situations 2 3 where It's not. possible to avoid prolonged skin 24 c on t ac t. ? 2`J A. 1 can't think of any. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024497 / '* t I Q . sne. Ok.jy . 2 A . I cannot, t. h i n k of any. 3 Q. All right. Now, with regard to this typo 4 of information here, would Mr. Grcmse have reviewed 5 these statements regarding what one should do in (, contacting Askeral, with the medical department of 7 Mens a n t o ? 8 A. I would say it should have been, or was. 9 Q. Rither was or should have been? 1 0 A. Kither was or should have been. 1 l Q. Okay. 1 2 A. Hut. I also am sayings Some of this 13 writing, some of this exact writing, comes fro* 1 4 literature outside of Monsanto. I'm not disagreeing 15 with this. E ' m telling you the source. 1 6 Q. Do you agree with it? 17 A. agree -- wall, E'd like to read it over 1 8 again before getting pinned. 19 Q. Sure. Feel free. 20 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, what section are 21 you asking about? I mean 2 7 MR. I. A C K Y : The discussion. 2 3 THK WITNESS: Ordinary personal care. 2 4 MR. CRAWFORD: Oh, okay. 3 5 A. To my knowledge, that first sentence is ~ NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024498 29 2 I to my knowlfid(je, [ agree with it. 1 havH to agrea 2 with it. 1 don't know of anything contrary. 3 Q. (fly Mr. f.aray) The second sentence? 4 A. I would, more or less, agree with the 15 second sentence. 6 Q. When you say " more or less," what part, 7 wou I. d you not want to agree with wholeheartedly? 8 A. I would not ays elf - "as with mineral 9 oil." We didn't have mineral oil. I'm not in a 1 0 position to say "as with." 1 l Q. So, you've not comfortable -1 2 A. So, this is from ex-USA. I would say, as 13 far as I am concerned, this kind of - - of statement 1 4 should be run by our medical people -15 Q. I understand. 16 A. -- - for their assessment of this and not. l 7 through me. 1 8 Q. Okay. Rut my question right now is whether 19 you agree with the statement -is a factual statement 20 that Askeral can be handled in the same manner as 2 1 insulating mineral oil? 2 2 MR. CRAWFORD: If you know. 2 3 A. [f I - if 1 know. Wow, as t'm telling 2 4 you, I think 1 know where this statement came from; 2 5 and I think we'li run into this later on --- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024499 /l s .i 1 Q That's r<Ml ly not my nufiation, t h o d g h , 2 Mr. Benignus. 3 . My simple question to you is whether 4 or not you agree w i. th that statement: Yes or no? b A. I don't know "the exact same manner as 6 insulating mineral oil," because 1 don't handle 7 Q. Okay. U A. - - mineral oil. 9 Q. Okay. And -- 1 0 A. T don't want to make an assumption on thl* 1 1 thing . ]2 Q. Okay. Now - - 13 A. You know what have to say on this 1 4 s u b i e c t. . 1 5 Q. Well, I'm t.ryinq to find out what you have 16 to say on the subject. That's -- that's what I'm 1 7 trying to find out. IB And what I hear you sayinq is: You 19 would not make the statement that you cun handle 2 0 PCB * 8 ius t like mineral oil beesuae you don't, know 21 anything about mineral oil. 2 2 A. I can't say I don't know anything about 2 3 mineral oil, but I can say C'm not suEEiciently 2 4 experienced or conversant with mineral oil to really 2 5 m a k this statement. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024500 'l ^ i I Q. Okay. Now, did - - 2 A. I would saythis requires -- should have - 3 the okay frot our medical people. That's what I am 4 saying. 5 Q. Okay. And, go, if Mr. Gross e didn't have 6 the approval of the medical people to make that 7 statement, on behalf of Monsanto, he should have? 8 A. if e s , I would 3a y so. 9 Q. Okay. What - one last question. About 10 what date was this "Care and Grooming of Askeral 1 1 Transformer Fluid," Document 2506 - l 2 A. That fits in this time frame of the mid J 3 1960's. 1 4 Q. Okay. Let. me show you another document, 15 called "When lfou Want Fire Safety Reliability, 1 6 Minimum Maintenance Specify Askeral Type 17 Transformers," Document 2522 through 2531. 18 A . Okay. 19 Q. Have you seen that document, before? 20 A. I have senn this before. That fits ties 21 in with these same things. 22 Q , t s a ft t h a - - y o tj might hold that up. We've 2 3 got t. he same - - 2 4 A. Pixie girl. 2 5 Q. -- pixie girl. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024501 /- * n 1 A . That's what E called L t . 2 Q. Okay. Is that another one of Mr. cironse ' a 3 produc tiona ? 4 A . 11 i s . 5 Q. Okay. And it was produced in the mid 6 1960's, too? 7 A. Yes. It. ties in with the other pixie girl 8 Q. Okay. So, any ti.no wo see that, we know 9 we're looking for Mr. Crosse, or we're looking at t 0 Mr. Crosse's work? 1 1 A. Yes. ] 2 Q. Okay. What was Mr. Grossc's background? 13 Was he a chemist or anything Like that? 1 4 A. 1 don't know. I really don't know. 15 Q. Okay. ] 6 A. Could have been at one tine. l 7 Q. Lot e cone over and Look at a portion - 18 A. He was a writer. 19 Q. Was he a pretty good writer? 20 A. He wan a qood wTiter, yes. 2 1 Q. Let me look at a section o I: this document 2 2 with you, on the Document Nu. 2532 page. And it's 2 3 entitled "An Rnd to Misconceptions." Do you see 24 t hat. ? 25 A . Yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024502 /1 6 I Q. And It indicates that there are some 2 engineers who have some misconceptions about AskeraJ 3 fluid, doesn't it? 4 A . This is the. idea here, yes. 5 Q. Now, again - 6 A. They don't understand it .... 7 Q. Yea h. 8 A. - and, therefore, have m i s c one ep t. i on s . 9 Q. Yes. Now, this Is a document, again, 1 0 prepared by Monsanto and provided to customers to l 1 encourage them to use Askeral transformers, correct? 1 2 A. Yes. 1 3 Q. Now, one of the misconceptions - - it starts 1 4 oft! by giving in bold type what the misconceptions 1 fi are, correct? 16 A. Yes. 1 7 Q. And the first misconception it says it's 18 going to deal with 13 the misconception that Askerai 19 fluids are poisonness; is that correct? 20 A. That's what it says. 21 Q. And it. then goes on to say that Askeral 2 2 fluids have been manufactured, hand Led, and used 2 3 over 3 0 years without, encountering toxic, or ill 2 4 effects? 2 b A. That's what we've been reading. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024503 /St / L Q. Okay. And that means that they're - - this 2. document is tellinq Monsanto customers that nobody 3 has gotten sick enough to go to the doctor as a 4 result of working with PCH's, correct? 5 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, is that what it 6 says? 7 THK WITNESS: Well, it doesn't say 8 that in those words, no. 9 Q. (Hy Mr. Lacey) That's what it means l 0 however, isn't it? 1 1 A. Well, it doesn't say that. Hut -l 2 Q. Woll, let me ask you about that. Didn't 1 3 you tell me before the lunch break that when a l 4 document says there are no toxic or ill effects. It. 1 l. means no one has gotten sick enough from PCR ' s to 16 have to go to the doctor? 1 7 A. Did I say that? 18 Q. Yes, you told me that, didn't you, before 19 the lunch break? 2 0 A. I would say so, if that's what -- what 3 2. I said. I don't recall exactly, but I'm not 2 2 Q. Well, isn't that, right, when you say 2 3 A. If somebody is sick from Lt, they should go 2 4 s e e t. h v doctor. 2.S Q. And if somebody got. sick from PCH's, that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024504 x 1 '! I would be a toxic or III effect, wouldn't it? 2 A. Yen. 3 Q. Okay. So, what that's saying is people 4 haven't gotten sick from P C B ' 3 , correct? S A . That is what this is saying, yes. 6 Q. Okay. And that's said In order to overcome 7 this belief that some people have that PCB's or fl A s k or a 1 fluids are poiuonnoss, righ t? 9 A. This is correct. l 0 Q. Okay. And it then goes on to indicate that 1 1 you can use Aakeral fluids with the ordinary 1 7. personal precautions used with other inert 1 3 industrial materials, correct? 14 A. That's what it says. 1 5> Q. What's an "inert material"? 16 A . Not reactive. 1 7 Q. Okay. The next, misconception that it Ifl Indicates it's going to deal with is the 19 isconoeption that Askeral transformers can explode, 20 correct? 21 A. That's what, it says. 22 Q. Now, can Ask oral transformers explode? 2 3 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. So, that misconception wasn't really 2 3 a misconception at all; that was correct, they could NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024505 299 I exp lodH right? 2 A . I just. to.Id you they could 3 Q. Okay 4 A . - - explode as a s a resuIt of arc formed 5 qa 3 . 6 Q. Okay. So, it's not a misconception that 7 Askfira 1 transformers can explode, i3 it? 8 A . I'd have to read this. 9 Askeral transformers can explode. 1 0 Q . Right. 1 l A . They can explode. 1 2 Q Okay . 1 3 A . So, whether it. is a misconception that -- 1 4 Q. It's a little bit confusing, isn't it? 18 A . Yeah, 3 agree with you. And he is a l 6 w r i ter, 1 7 Q. Okay. And, yet., he's still writinq on 18 behalf of Monsanto for people who might bo using l?cn 19 products made by Monsanto? 20 A. At this point in time. 21 Q. Yes. 2 2 A . Yes, he was writing about that. 2 3 Q . is Mr. Crosse still with Monsanto; do you 2 4 know ? 7 8 A . I don't, know. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024506 i00 1 Q How old a nun wi3 Hr. Grosso when you worn 2 working with him? 3 A. I -- I cannot-, answer this. He was one of 4 these, to me, sort of: an ageless person. b I'm sorry. I can't answer it. 6 Q. Well, did you think ho was about: your age, 7 younger, older? 8 A. Htj was younger than I. 9 Q. Okay. Hut you don't know how such? 10 A. No, Id on't. 1 1 Q. Fine. Now, let me show you another l 2, document, 1489 through 149.3, and ask it you have ] 3 seen that, document, before. 1 4 A. It may have beon in the list of things we 1 b looked at. I have nothing to do with this. 16 Q. Okay, You've got nothing to do with that 1 7 at all? 1 8 A. I have nothing to do with this. 19 Q. And you have no idea what time frame It 20 might fit into; is that, correct? 21 A. Weil, I haven't looked at it. 22 Q. Well, okay. Go ahead and look at it. T 2 3 mean. If you can help us identify its Location in 24 time, 3 would appreciate that. help. 2 5 A. It says, "For the past ten years. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024507 30 1 I Monsanto ' 3 half: con tury of experience has been 2 called on again." 3 1 would think t. his i a running into t. he 4 1960's. Now, that's a quick guess. b Q. That's baaed on information in the document, 6 and your knowledge of Monsanto? 7 A . Thia is an estimation on my part. That's 8 the best I can do with this. I'm Looking tor 9 somet. hing that, night t. ie something in. l 0 I would say it nay be running up into 1 1 the mid bO's to '60, something like this. 1 2 Q. Okay. 13 A. Now, that ia merely an estimate. 14 Q. Fine. That's more help and know led go than 1 b we had before. 1 6 A. Wo L1 -) 7 Q. Let. me show you another document, 1504 18 through 1507, and ask it you can tell us anything 19 about that document and, in particular-, what. 2 0 period 21 A . Do you want this b a c. k ? 2 2 Q. You can just lay that down there, if you 23 2 4 A . See , t h is is , again, functi on a 1 fluids. 2 b Q. Are you able to help ti s at a L1 with the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024508 nv I dating o (! that? 2. A . I'll try . 3 We] ] , here it. a a y a , "For 2 8 years 4 Monsanto has supplied the dLo l ectr i e . " Well, 8 Monsanto acquired Swann in '38. Then t. hat. 70 would 6 be - it runs it up to what I'vo been talking about, 7 or about. I960. That's about as close as I can get 8 tor you. 9 Q. Okay. l 0 A. That is --- it's in the ballpark. Talks L l about things that would be in that framework, as 1 2 best. T c a n j u d q e i t. . 13 Q. All right. lot me show you another 1 4 document, called "Absorptive Refining of A a k e r a 1 13 Fluids," 2 23 3 through 2.2.8 4, and a3k you if you can 1 6 help us date this document.. l 7 A. I would be looking for something like ) R 1967. Can we find that? 19 MR. CRAWFORD; David, just so the 20 record is clear, since he didn't author these, he in 21 just giving you estimates -- and 1 think that's 22 pretty c .1 v. a r -- *' the beg t. h e c: a n do. And - - a n d 2 3 there may be other o x ac t r L s he c a n give you baaed 24 a n the fact. h e didn't author them. 2 8 A . No , t didn't author this. I ' * making a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024509 30 1 I quss. 2 I would put t. hi a into the time frame 3 after 1965 and certainly prior to 1970, so. I'm 4 hitting the mid to latter 1960's; and I'm pretty 5 suve I -- I f. e e l comfortable with that. 6 Q. (Hy Mr. Lacey) Okay. 7 MR. CRAWFORD; As long as you fool 8 comfortable with it, Mr. Beni gnus; but just, don't, 9 guess on a document. If you feel comfortable - 1 0 THE WITNESS! All I can do is guess on 1 t these things. 1 2 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, we don't -13 THR WITNESS: I'm doing the best I 1 4 can, and I don't, think I'm misleading anybody. 15 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. 1 6 THR WITNESS; T'm not trying to, 1 7 and - - I don't know. 18 Q (By Mr. Lacey) Wei 1 , that 19 K. K week L 3 go i ng to make no difference. 2 0 month will make no - - I don't k no w. 2 1 Does a year make m u c h difference? 2 2 Don't, pin me down to the year. 2 3 Q. This document you were just lookimj at, 2 1 "The Absorptive Refining of Askeral Fluids," is a 2 5 piece of advertising Literature for dielectric NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024510 JU4 1 PCB ' 3, correct? 2 A . Yen , That, type of thing, yea , correct. 3 Q. And you'ro the - 4 A. And I - 5 Q . - ~ company repreaentat. i ve on that? 6 A . Ysa, And I'm answering your question. 7 And what, did 1 tell you i a the t ime on 8 t hi. s? 9 Q . 19 6 5 to 1 9 7 0 ; ih that correct? l 0 A. I put it in between there. I think it's 1 1 before 1 970. I.et. me think some more. l 2 Q . Okay. ) 3 A . I would tend to pin that on -- now, see, t 4 he's getting me down to the exact year. 1 5 Let me p jc k '68. 16 Now, are you satisfied? 1 7 Q . I really wasn't, dissatisfied at all with 18 your answers. Mr. Crawford is the one who's 19 who's apparently not. happy with them. 2 0 MR. CRAWFORD . Well, no. I just want 21 to be sure you're - you're fairly comfortable with 2 2 the accuracy of that. That's all I'm saying. rt's 23 j u s t - 2 4 y. (Hy Mr. Lacey) All we can do today -- 2 6 A. r'n a bit uncomfortabLe now that I'm down NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024511 I to I960 per s e . 2 Q. But you're comfort able between '6b and '70? 1 A . You bol. tor believe it. 4 Q . A 1 ] r i q h t. . A 1 J we're trying t. o do here i s 5 get these documents dated. And if we cun accomplish 6 that., why, we've accomplished something. 7 A. Because otherwise you're going to have a a 1 ot. more work . 9 Q. That's right. And 1 don't know who to -1 0 who's going to help us do it. 1 ] A. Date this one t.he same way. l 2 Q. Okay. Well, lei: me hand it to you so we'll 1 3 know which one is "this one." l 4 We've got a document here called 1 5 "Inline Measurement of Kiectrical Properties" - 16 A . Right. \ 7 Q. -- "For Flowing D i e 1 ec t. r i c s , " Document. 10 O/FF-12, Mo. 1529 through 1536. 1 9 A. Yeah . I hope 1 find some sort, of a code to 20 this. So, this has the exact same lettering as that 21 other one. And I'bi reading 1068. Here again, I 2 2 don't know does that mean I960. But I would be 2 3 comfortable with this document, in the same time 2 4 frame a3 I gave you for that other document. 2 a Q. Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024512 306 I A . And -- 30, mark it arr ordlngly. 2 Where is the ot her one? 3 Oh, that, yes, those two, 0n is the 4 absorption equipment, and the other one is the way 5 you measure what th.it absorption equipment has S accomplished. So, the two go hand in hand, 7 Q. Okay. Let me show you another document a called "Toxicology and Safe Handling of Monsanto 9 Aerclor Chlorinated Diphenyl," Document 18731 1 0 through 1R737, and ask if you can give me a date on 11 that document. } 2 Have you ever seen that one before? I 3 A. E -- T. recognize things in here that we 1 4 printed before. Hut. whether- 1 saw this, I'm trying 15 to - 1 6 Q. I've looked for - l 7 A. E would -- I'd almost say "no." 1 fl Q. So, that, one may be after your retirement? 19 A. I would have to say "no." 20 Q. It's not after your retirement? 2 1 A. T recognize things in there - 2 2. Q. Okay . 2 3 A . - - but E have n ot see n this . 24 Q. So, you don't have any idea to help 2 5 that one? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024513 1o / 1 A . C cannot pinpoint that one. 2 Q. Okay. 3 Q. Can you tell me what. "Pydraul" was? 4 A. "PydrauL" was a trade name assigned to r> fluids for use wit.h, say, things like metal die 6 casting machines. It's a hydraulic fluid. 7 "Pydraul" is a hydraulic fluid. 8 Q. Did it contain P C B's ? 9 A . Not all Pydr aul contained PC'H's . Some 1 0 Pydraul may have contained PCB. 1 ] Q. And you really don't know for sure one way 12 or the other about which ones did and which ones 13 didn't? 14 A . No, I wouldn't. - I was not in that area. 1 5 Q. Did - - when you were working in the 1 6 inorganic area, did you have anything to do with the l 7 PCB'a th.it went into things like hydraulic fluids? IB A. PCB was used at that point in time as a 19 hydraulic fluid; yes, it was. 20 Q. While you were .in that area? 21 A. This is right. 2 2 Q. Did you have anything to do with the PCB's 21 used as hydraulic fluid while you were in the 2 4 inorganic area? 2 f A. Not. t. o select -- not to specify, but merely NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024514 i08 t to acknowledge that PCB fluid was so in use. That 2 wan the extent, of it. 3 Q. When you say "acknowledge that it was so in 4 use," you mean you could 5 A . 1 knew of it. fS Q. ..... just toll us that happened? 7 A. 1 knew of it. 8 Q. Okay. Did you ever do any work on 9 literature for the advertising of the Pydraul l 0 fluids? 1 1 A . No. 1 2 Q. Who in that area was responsible for that? 13 A. Well, the product manager of that area 1 4 would have been George - 15 Do you want the job position? What -J f. what, are you asking for? I 7 Q. Well, hopefully somebody you can toil us 18 about who might, be able to do for us with regard to 19 thm hydraulic fluid materials what you've done for 20 US with regard to the dielectric - - dielectric, 2 1 materials, heLp us identify documents and the dates 2 2 on which they were published. 2 3 A. This, now, different than in my case. Here 2.4 you're talking t. o one individual, which simplifies 25 things. You're now getting into an area where there NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024515 309 1 wore several individuals Involved. I'm talking 2 about an organization. And perhaps this question 3 that you raised with me had better be asked more 4 specifically from someone in that, area rather- than ri myself. 6 {). So, you can't even - 7 A. r I; you understand what I'm trying to teil 8 you . 9 Q. Yeah. I'm just trying to find out if you 1 0 can even identify somebody that was in that area who 1 1 might be able to help ua out., or we're back to 12 looking at the phone book to try to find somebody to 1 3 talk to. 1 4 A. I don't, know who to name, I -I am -- I t fi know people in that area. If. C> . Can you tell me some of the people that 17 were in that area? ] 8 A. George Buchanan was the product, manager. 19 Now, he's retired, George Buchanan. 2 0 Q. Do you know where Mr. Buchanan lives now? 2 l A. Yeah. 22 Q. Where does he Jive? 2 3 A. He lives in -- see, now you're going to say 7.4 Paul Benign u m gave you t. h a t. n a m e . 2 Vj MR. CRAWFORD: Go ahead. He's NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024516 31 0 1 entitled to L t . 2 THE W J T N K S S : 1 think he is e n t i t. 3 to this. 4 MR . CRAWFORD: Well, he is. 5 THK WITNESS: I really do. 6 A . He 1 i ve s in Green Valley, Arizona. 7 THE WITNESS: Can you Leave your 8 fingers still a m inute? 9 a. (By Mr . Lacey) She's got to keep her 1 0 finqers goi nq . That's her obligation. l l You go ahead and toll us. It lsn 12 going to hurt, anything if her fingers are going. l 3 MR. CRAWFORD: Well -- well, just 1 4 answer - just, answer- his question because we've got. 15 a lot of - 1 6 A. You asked where does he live. Green 17 Valley, Arizona. 18 MH. CRAWFORD: Okay. That's good. 19 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) Do you know w here a bouts in 2 0 Green Valley? 2 1 A. (Ho response) 2 2 Q . I thouqht. maybe that's what you were going 2 3 t;o try to tell us, 11: you ha ppe ned to know. 24 A. Oh, exnino me. You think Green Valley is a 2.5 river valley. There are no great rivers out there NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024517 31 1 I except the dry Colorado Hiver. 2 Q. That.'3 - that's t. hi name of a t own i n 3 Arizona? 4 A. That, 's the name of a town. 5 Q . Okay. 6 A . Green Valley, Arizona. 7 Q . All right.. 8 A. You can go from there. 9 Q . Okay. Can you toll me what "Thermlno:1" is? 1 0 A. Yea. Therainol relates to this same group l l that we're talking about, the Pydrauls; the 1 2 Therm! nol a ; Skyclraul , which isn't. PCR. And 11 "Thorminol" l s a name, as it implies, heat, heat 1 4 transfer fluid. 1 F> Q. Who could help ua date these documents that, l 6 we have that relate to Thorninol? Would 1 7 Mr. Huchanan be the person there, too? 18 A. (Witness nods head) 19 Q. You need to answer verbally. 20 A. Yes. 2 1 Q. Okay . ' 2 2 A. He should be. 2 3 Q . All right.. Now, what about - - we tiave some 2 4 documents here that relate to coatings and 2 S plasticizers and things like that. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024518 3 I ?. 1 Who wo u L d be a person who could help 2 us with regard to those documents? 3 A. I have though!; of this, th.it you would ask 4 this, also. I've been trying to think. And if ] r> knew more spec if ica l ly, I would tell you, believe 6 me . 7 Q . Certainly. 8 A . I just don't. 9 Q. That would not. be in Mr. Buchanan's area? 1 0 A. No, that would not have been at this time 1 1 .in his area; this is correct. l 2 Q. And you don't have any idea o P who might 1 3 have been involved with that particular area? l 4 A. really don't know who to nominate. J b Q. Okay. Let. me - - I'm trying to get through l 6 aLi of these various bulletins we've (jot and make 1 7 sure we've g ot everything covered here. l 8 A. Isn't it awful? 19 Q. There's a lot. of them, aren't there? A 20 fair amount of - 21 A . It's - - it's a lot of - 2 2 Q. We had a fair amount of: literature that 2 3 Monsanto provided to various customers dealing with 2 4 PCB ' s. 2b A. Yes, this is correct. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC.. STLCOPCB4024519 1 l 1) i Q . 1 ' v (jot a o m o tore here that Le t me 2 see. 11n not quite sure h o w these fit in. 3 There's a document here ca Lied the 4 "Aroclor Polychlorinated Polyphenyls," Technical 8 Bulletin 0-FF/l, Document SCM 0 18626 through 186151. 6 Lei. me ask you to take a look at that, 7 and 3ee IE you can provide me any information about 8 that document. 9 A. Now, incidentally, this has that same -- l 0 this thing, which we thought might be an attachment 1 1 earlier -- l 2. Q . R L g h t . 1 3 A . .... and w erf>. somewhat confused about, 14 whether somebody tacked it on there. 1 b This, 1 would say .... here, this says, 16 "For more information, additional literature, 1 7 Askeral Inspection and Maintenance Guide," which we 18 have already time framed between 1962, at the start 19 and -- I don't know when the last, revision was 20 made. This Is - would have to be put into the 2 1 framework of the 1960's. 2 2 Q. Okay. 2 3 A. That is - - 2 4 Q, This has, T note, in At tables like we saw 2 6 b n f o re in that - - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024520 7I 4 t A . IItt (dloos . 2 Q . - -- P - ] 1 ft a rt d o P 1 ) h . 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. Would that have been a document with the S tables in it that you would have reviewed tor 6 accuracy before it went out.? 7 A. Thoao tables? At some point In time R whether fox this particular issue, I do not know. 9 Q. I see. 1 0 A. See, every time a - - one of these things l l issued, I wasn't sitting t h e r e waiting for it. 1 2 Q. 1 understand. l 3 A. I would hope so. 1 4 Q. That would almost be a full-time job, to 1 3 sit there and wait Cor aLl those, wouldn't it? 1 6 A. T t would. 1 7 Q. Let. me show you another document which 18 appears to be just another copy oE that -- but I 1 9 want you to look and make sure also labeled the 7 0 " Here lor Polychlorinated Polypheny Is, " Technical 2 1 bulletin 0 - F F / 1 , 132 through 1b 7, and ask if that's 2 2 simply a copy of the other document you just looked 2 3 a t. . 7 4 A. T t appears to me to he exactly that. Now, 7/3 it has this number back here. (Live you Looked .it NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024521 71 S 1 that number? 2 Q . Which number is that.;1 3 k. This number. 4 Q. Where i t says "0466-6"? b A . Yeah , 6 0. Let me see the - 7 A . I think that's the same as that. a Q. Let me see if that's the same number on the 9 other one. j o MR . CRAWFORD: (Indicating) 11 Q . (By Mr. Lacey) Does it have -- it seems to 1 2 be even the sane little niinber there. 13 A . I think it's j ust another -1 4 Q . Another copy of the same one? 15 A. - copy. 1 6 I think no. l 7 Q. Let me show you another document, also 1 8 labled the "Aerclor Polychlorinated Polyphenyls." 19 Here, instead of: giving the -- it's got the same 2 0 title; but instead of giving a list of the series, 2 1 et cetera, it just says "Dielectric for Capacitors 22 and Transformers." Then it says Technical Du]1iten 22 O/PF/R, which would indicate it is a revision? 24 A. That's a revision of something. 25 Q. This Is Document 15 8 through 179, and r NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024522 l6 I would d3k you L e that appears to be a revision o f 2 the two documents we just previously discussed 7 3 MR. CRAWFORD: Here. 4 A. 1 have evidence here that this would, no 5 doubt, put this into the time frame of this 11-71 6 that I see back here. 7 Q. (Ry Mr. Iidcey) Okay. 8 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, Mr. Beni.gnus, 9 you -- you're basing that strictly on this page that 1 0 has the district office -- sales office divisions; l t i. s that correct? 1 2 THE WITNESS: Well, no. No, it 13 isn't. t'o looking at t h i 3 number, which I'm not 1 4 sure 1 know what, it means. Hut. I'm looking at that 15 number, but I'm looking at somothing else I saw. 1 6 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. l 7 THE WITNESS: I'm only trying to date 1 8 this. 19 Q. (By Mr. Lacey) That's really what I've, 2 0 asked you to do. 21 And you would date it in the '71 time 2 2 f ra me? 2 3 A. ye s. Do you want to know why? 2 4 Q. Sure. 2 5 A . Of course, you would. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024523 a17 1 Q. E'vo been tryimj to ask all those questions 2 today. 3 A . Let me read. It. mentions Hill Pappageorge, 4 his address, 800 North Lindburqh, St. Louis, b Missouri, Area Code - -- 1 mean ZIP Code 63136. 6 Okay . 7 Q . So ...... H A . L3appdi;eor<je arrived. 9 Q. Yes. Now, that is a revision of the l 0 previous document. Is It not? 1 1 A . Of this? 12 Q . Yes. 1 3 A . (No response) l 4 Q You ' ll note the number O-FF on t h e re. Look i r> a t. the. front number. That appears to be a revision 16 o that prior document; is that covrect? ] 1 A . Excuse - excuse me? 18 Q. Yes . Let me --- t want to make s u r e - 19 A . Oh, I see what you're saying. 2 0 That'3 the way it looks to me. 21 Q. And the reason this one just, talks about 2 2 dielectrics Cor capacitors and transformers where 23 the prior- versions of the same titled document, 24 talked about all these other uses is because 2 5 Monsanto has now stopped selling PCH's for any use NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024524 3ia 1 except dielectric; Isn't that correct? 2 A . Yes, all'. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. Now, let. me have e\ach one of those back for <> a moment, if I could. 7 Did you have any involvement with a either of these documents, to your knowledge? 9 A. No, I did not. I've only been able to time LO frame them for you. 11 Q. Okay. Now, each one. of these documents has l 2 in it a section on dermatolocjy and toxicology and ] 3 safe, handling. Is that something that would, again, l 4 go back to the medical department Cor explanation? u> A. It. should. ] 6 Q. Okay, They would be the people to talk to i.7 about that? IB A . Yes . 19 Q. All right. 2 0 A . And you've got that. timed correctly. 21 Q. Okay. And we would 3 til l be -- 2 2 A . Sure have. 2 3 Q . - talking about Dr Kmmet Kelly 2 4 A . Yes. 2S Q. .... a 3 t. h e person in the medical department? NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024525 3 t9 I A . Yes . 2 Q. Was he there all the way up until the time 3 that you retired? 4 A . Yes. 5 Q. Okay. '.io, throughout - 6 A . Except, during the war years, I happen to 7 know . 8 Q What was he doing during the war years? 9 A . Wall, he'3 a medical doctor. 1 0 Q In the service? l l A . Yea. 1 2 Q. Who was performing the functions as medical t 3 director for Monsanto during the World War EE years? 1 4 A . 1 do not know. 1 do not know. I can't 155 answer that. 1 6 Q. Okay. Let. me turn your attention to some 17 other documents I think will be easier maybe to 1 8 understand; at. least they are for roe, and I hope 19 they will be for you. 2 0 I want to show you a doc union t. called 2 l the "Reference Rulletin on A roc lor Fluids Cor the 2 2 Tranaforner Industry," dated April 13th, 3 9 b 4 , 2 3 Document 1783 through 1793. 24 Have you seen that document, before? 2 <5 A. Yes, I've seen that. I saw that last NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024526 .! 2 0 I n i <3 h t, late L a s t n u/li t , 2 Q. Who wrote t. h a t. d oc.umen t. ? 3 A. I did. T h L s is dated 1984. 4 Q. Okay . And - and what was the purpose - <5 A . C t ' 3 6 Q. Yes. What ' s the exact -7 A . t ' 3 got my initial, and you're asking me? 8 Q Wha t. ' n the exact date there on it? 9 I don 't have a copy in front of me. 1 0 ga v e my copy to you l l A . T h o x a <: t date i.s 4-13-84. 1 2 Q That would be April )3th, 1984? 13 A . Correct. 14 Q No w , what. was your purpose in writing that 18 document ? 16 A . T h i s is an in-house, one might, say, wi thin 17 company, piece of Information, brochure, that was 18 aimed at. telling people in our sales department that 19 there are these different materials that they may 2 0 hear. This is the psflent i a 1 part, of this thing. 21 And you'll. see here it identifies a 2 2 whole list. of compounds. [ t ' s nice that you h a v e 2 3 this. isn't it? I 1. do es that aecurate1y and gives 2 4 t. h e i r r.ompo sit. inn. 2 8 Q Th is was written a s a reference book for NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC, STLCOPCB4024527 321 I other Monsanto people, so to speak? 2 A. Yea, that ' a all it. is. 3 And It Lists trade names by various 4 transformer manufacturers, what their given trade `j name is. il oa of these are capacitor -- well. It f. does flay "capacitor" here. Others says 7 "transformer." So that the salesmen wilL have heard 8 of this, that he's not completely oblivious to 9 thi3 . 1 0 It's not intended for anything 1. I external . 1 2 Q. Hut it's information so he can answer 13 questions that do come from customers, correct? 14 A. 1 wouldn't - all right. If you want 1 15 don't know whether we expect this. 1 6 Q. Who asked you to write that? t 7 A. Who asked me to write this? 18 Q. yes. 19 A. in 1 9 i> 4 . This could have been a man in the 2 0 position that I referred to who wu3 -- let's say the 21 project - - the product, manager might, have asked 2 2 this, might have asked this. 2 3 Q. n o you know why you were selected to do it.? 24 A. I was about the most logical one to 2 5 identify these - - this whole list of product, names NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024528 3 ' V. t thdt .... Pyranol - t hat's the G.R. names. I 2 would -- I would be the logical place to go for 3 this. 4 Q. You had more knowledge about these sorts of 5 things-6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. - - than anybody else - 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. - - in Monsanto? 1 0 A. Yeah. l l Q . be t me - 1 7 A. That would .... that would have been it. And I 3 [ wrote It as an in-house thing. 1 4 Q. It explains the basic things about how 15 transformers work and what they're used for, 16 c orrec t ? 17 A. I would suppose, yea. Just, general 18 information. This isn't training anybody. 19 Q. Well , would this be the sort, of document 20 that a salesman might keep handy so if he has a 2 1 question come in over the phone, he could flip to it 2 2 and be able to find the necessary information? 2 3 A. No, 1 don't think so. No. Unless if he is 2 4 getting an inquiry from someone, like, for instance, 2 5 G . F . Pyranol 1499. And this is a name thi3 is NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024529 :i ?. 3 I the trade name, com in on In common use at G.K. To 2 ua -- to him, it would be Arcidor - 1248, was it? 3 Look and see. 4 Q. Okay. Let's see. 5 /V. L can't remember. Pyranol 1499? 6 Q. See. if it lists 14. 7 A. T t would be close to it. 0 Q. 1242, it. says here. 9 A. Well, T wag weighings Ta Lt 1242 or 1240? 1 0 Q. 8ays here it's 1242. L l A. Yes, this La correct. 1 2 See, even now, I can't remember that; 1 3 and how could a salesman? That's ita purpose. 1 4 Q. Okay. Now, this document described t. he 13 different types of transformers that could bo used, 1 6 did it not? It compared dry transform era t. o 17 oiL-filled to PCB-filled transformers? 1 8 A. I don't, remember that it docs , but if you 19 say it's -- that's written in there. 20 Q. Let me - let me look at it with you for a 2 l inuto. 22 A . All right. 2 3 Q. Let me just - 2 4 A . Well, this is the types of insulation. 2 5 Q Yeah. It - - and It go eg through to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024530 3 2 -1 I actually, in the process of discussing tilings, talk 2 about the sales and application picture for- PCH 3 tranaformera or As kora l transformers - 4 A . llh-huh . 5 Q . - - correct? 6 A . Uh-huh . 7 Q. And talks about the different 0 characteristics of how transformers are selected; 9 talks about dry--type units? 1 0 A. Dry -- yes, where one would have an open l 1 dry - - this shows a the different kinds of 1 2 t. r a n a f or me r s , open dry. 13 Q . Right. AnaLyzes the various 1 4 character istica of transformers that could be used 15 indoors? 16 A . ll h - h u h . 1 7 Q. Makes comparisons between liquid and dry 18 transformers and all sorts of different 1 9 characteristics, correct? 2 0 A. Yes. 21 Q. Talks about, even how much they - how much 2 2 noise they give off and how much they vibrate? 2 3 A . Yeah. 2 4 Q. Explains the developments t ha t are taking 2 5 place in dry transformers that may improve their NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024531 i2S 1 characteristics correct? 2 A . Well, you're reading - - I go along with 3 what You're sayinc; on that. Yeah, improvements in 4 continence and things 5 Q . Talks about the development o this Class B 6 insulation material? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q . And T guess what. I'm trying to figure out 9 here is whether the purpose of all of that was to 1 0 allow a salesman- 1 1 A . No. Now that we've gone through this, no. l 2 Q. Well, let me finish my question. 1 3 A . All right.. 1 4 Q. I'm trying to find out whether the purpose 15 of this was to sufficiently educate Monsanto J 6 salesmen so that they would know what, the potential 17 benefits of Askera l transformers are vis-a-vis i a competition like mineral- oil-filled transformers or 19 dry-type transformers? 20 A. No. No. 21 Q. Hell, why does it give the salesman so much 2 2 information about the dry transformers - 2 3 A. K x c u 3 e me. When I said "to the salesman," 2 4 l was looking at. this list of product names. 2b Now, that would be helpful to a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024532 .1 / b I sdlesnid n c a L l i n g on one of these companies, say the 2 purchasing agent. Whereas to the salesman it's .1 Aroclor 1242 an<l here he runs into Pyrano l 1499 that 4 he never heard of before, this correlates that.. Now 5 that's what I looked at. f> That would be of interest. This is an 7 in-house thing. Above and beyond that, anything 1 8 said is extraneous. 9 Q. Well, why did you write all the rest of l 0 this stuff: about dry transformers and benefits, 3 1 vibration, noise, insulating materials, et cetera? l 2 A. Well, E knew about this and this was 13 extracted from the literature and so forth and 3 l 4 just put it together maybe - - IS Q. Hut but for what purpose? 16 A. We weren't making transformers; we weren't 1 7 designing transformers; we were not selling 18 transformers. 19 Q. You did it. just to be doing it.? 20 A. That's about -- as I told you -- as I see 7.1 this, the most significant, part of that is to list 22 the product nomenclature. That -- that is it. 2 3 Maybe you'll say 1 didn't have much 24 more to do. I don't know. 2 b Q. Well, I - I guess I'm just looking here. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024533 .1 a 7 1 A- t ' m passing along things that l know and 2 had read about, t. ra n a f ormer s and passed it into the 3 product group. 4 We were selling dielectrics t.o people 5 who built designed and built transformers, and I 6 passed this it's a general information bulletin. 7 This is what it is. There's no specific goal, a purpose, and so forth. It is a matter of general 9 information. 1 0 Q . Okay. 1 1 A . That'3 it, 1 2 Q. Kor salesmen? 1.3 A. No. Now that I've gone through this thing, 1 4 as I told you, for salesmen, 1 can see that this L !i product nomenclature could bo of interest. Rut that 16 is of interest, also, to the clerk who fills orders l 7 that these names can come in. It's of interest to 18 people in this product group. It's general 19 information. 20 Q. Well, the document, is approximately 11 21 pages long. And the list of nomenclature, what the 2 2 G.E. name is versus the Monsanto name and so forth, 2 3 takes the -- a p a g e and a half. 24 A. Right. 2 8 Q. What was the other nine and a half pages NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024534 .wo I for? 2 A. General information. 3 Q. For anybody's benefit? 4 A. For anybody. 5 Q. And who would it be within Monsanto who 6 would have one of these reference bulletins for 7 their benefit? a A. I would say the product manager and people 9 in - in -- associated with him. That's its 1 0 purpose. 1 1 Q. And would that include the salespeople, 12 too, or not? 13 A. No. No . 1 4 Q. Okay. I.et me show you anotherdocument, l 5 titled "The Proper Handling of ArocLor and their 16 mixtures in the Electrical Industry," Document. 196/ 1 7 through 2051. i a A. I'm very familiar wit.h that.. 19 Q. Okay. How are you familiar with that? 20 A. Has my name on it.. 21 Q. Okay. Did you write it? 2 2 A. 1 wrote it. 2 3 Q. And what date did you write it? 2 4 A . 12-1-54. 2 5 Q. December 1st, 1954? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024535 -U9 I A . Correi'.l; . 2 Q . Von wrote; that, in the same year that yon .3 wrote this refer onc bulletin on Aroe lor fluid:?, 4 right.? 5 A. Okay. 6 Q . Ih ttut accurate? 7 A. Well, it aays go, doesn't it? 8 Q. T believe - 9 A. Yes. 1 0 Q . - it does. l 1. A. Yes. 1 2 Q . Now, what was the purpose of writing this t 3 document on the proper handling of ArocLora and 1 4 their mixtures in the FI] ectri cal Industry? 15 A. The purpose of this was to inform our 16 c. ust omern of the specifications of all t. hese - call 1 7 them " f?C8 ' s . " And you'll note in here all the test J 8 procedures, as used at - - and documented at. t he 19 American Standards -- the ASTM. 2 0 So, it. gives all of that in - - in 2 1 great detail. For instance, here it gives great 2 2 detail of the procedure that is used, in our own 7 3 Laboratories, and it gives detail of: the procedures 24 documented at. ASTM out. in the industry. And it. goes 2 5 into this detail, also, on sampling methods . Th<5n NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024536 .1 j 0 1 it goes into 3uc h things as unloading of tank cars. 2 Now, T remember this. It wag sort, of 3 e>barrasatng. A man would com* and buy hia first 4 tank car, and it. would be shipped. And he would 5 have gone to the effort of building an unloading 6 dock to receive this thing. And he built this 7 dock - - would have built it to unload from the 0 bottom, where tank cars usually do unload. 9 Q. And wouldn't even know enough to know how 1 0 to unload the car? 1 1 A. Wouldn't know how to unload the car. Ours 12 unload through the top. Things like this. They 1 3 were intended, in detail, for our customers -l 4 Q. Okay. So - 1 5 A. - of which there weren't many. Hi Q. Okay. So, you'd provide a document Like 1 7 that to General Klee trie and a document t. o 18 Wes t i. nghous e and a document to A 1 1 i s -Cha L me r s -1 9 A . Exactly 2 0 Q. -- and those sorts ci f people? 21 A . Exactly 2 2 Q. Let me look at that document, with you for a 23 little bit just to (jo over the sorts of t h L ng s that 24 are in it. It's got in here a index or t.ab 1 e of 25 contents - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024537 33 1 1 A. Yea. 2 Q. - - at the first, doesn't it? 3 A . fjh - h u h . 4 Q. And there it. deals with a lot. of things 5 about what It's qoinq to cover. For example, it has 6 a chapter on unloading tank cars? 7 A. Right. E saw that here somewhere, the tank a car unloading. All right. 9 Q. rt has a chapter on storage tanks? 1 0 A. Right. We disclosed the kind of storage 11 tanks we used. ] 2 Q. Has a chapter on gas ~~ gasketing and pump 13 pack L n g ? 14 A. Packing, right. 15 Q. Has an entire chapter on how to do sample? 1 6 A. Right. 1 7 Q. An entire chapter on how to do laboratory 18 analysis? 19 A. Correct. 2 0 Q. A chapter on the actual test, procedures? 21 A. Right. 2 2 Q. A chapter on typical properties? 2 3 A. Correct. 2 4 Q. A chapter on earth treatment of the 2 5 A r o e l o r s and their mixtures? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024538 'J/ I A . Right. 2 Q. And a chapter on dermatology and 3 toxicology? 4 A . Yes. 5 Q. Okay. Now, did you write each one of these 6 chapters yourself:; or did you get any help on this 7 from somebody else? 8 A. Most of It, I wrote by myself. 9 Well, no. Wait, a minute. I would 1 0 have to find out, "Now, what Is it the design and l 1 the construction of the storage tank?" 1 wouldn't l 2 know this offhand. 13 Q. Okay. 1 4 A. 1 had to go elsewhere to get t.his. You can 15 go down the line. I was in an office. I 1 6 accumulated this information from other people, to t 7 answer your question. 1 8 Q. Okay. The chapter on tank cars, for 19 example -2 0 A. llh-huh. 2 1 Q. -- starts off and it's got some very 2 2 specific directions on what to do, doesn't it? 2 3 A. l would think so. 2 4 Q. I mean. Cor example, it explains there are 2 5 cither two or three -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024539 33 3 I A . yes. 2 Q. -- connections on t. he top of the car - 3 A. Right. 4 Q. -- and exactly what size they are? 5 A . r t ' s very detailed, right > 6 Q Exactly what pressures to use? 7 A . And that information was given to me from 0 our plant. 9 Q. Right. Even - - even goes to the point of l 0 explaining that the car has <jot to be level and the 1 1 brakes have got. t.o be act before you can unload it? l 2 A. We know this. 13 Q. Okay. So, it's very detailed with regard 14 to that? IS A . 11.'s very detailed. 16 Q. All right. And that same sort of detail 17 follows through that whole chapter, basically a 18 step-by-step how to do it? 19 A. Right. Arid that .... 1 obtained fro# our 20 plant. 21 Q. Right. When we come to storage tanks - 2 2 A . Same thing. 2 3 Q. Same thing, very detailed description of 24 storage tanks, exactly trow they should be built, ?S exactly what, materials to use and everything. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024540 1 correct? 2 A . R i q h t. . 3 Q. Talks - even has drawings on how to do it 4 and the exact sixes of the nozzles, doesn't it? 5 A. It sure does. 6 Q . Okay. When we get to the chapter on 7 gasketing and pimp packing, it describes - 0 A. A spec i C ic . 9 Q. -- specific types of connections, gives the l 0 part number and the company you can get it fro*? ) 1 A . That ' a the purpose o f this! . l 2 Q Okay . The chapter o n the sampling methods. 1 3 n, is very specific on how you do it, is it not? 1 4 A . That's correct. 1 5 >. Rxplains what you can do , the particular 16 type of sample bottle, how ~ - what size It is, what 1 7 color it is and everything, doesn't it? 18 A. That'a correct. 19 Q. Okay. When you start talking about 2 0 laboratory analysis, again, you have a great deal of 21 detail on exactly what to do, don't, you? 2 2 A. This is right. 2 3 Q. Rxplains t.he size bottle to use and what, 2 4 flask anti what beaker anti exactly what methods are 25 to be used, correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024541 -i i I A . Right. And that was obtained Prom our 2 laboratories. 3 Q. Right.. Then it talks about the actual test 4 procedures. Those are specific procedures to make 5 sure that the electrical properties have been 6 properly maintained? 7 A. This is correct. 8 Q. Okay. And it has great detail on those 9 test procedures; is that correct? l 0 A. That's covruct. 1 1 Q. Kven has in here some points, in capital l 2 Letters, "Caution," you know, "Don't touch the 1 3 electrodes with your hands," that sort of thing? l 4 A. That would contaminate thea. 1 h Q. Okay. Gives the details on the specific l 6 apparatus to be used, like a certain oscilloscope, ] 7 particular model number and everything, right? 18 A. (No res ponso) 19 Q. Ia that correct? 2 0 &. Yes, that's correct. 21 Q. Talks about specific safety in operating 2 2 controls on certain equipment that are used, 2 3 explains exactly the order to go and which button to 24 push and when, correct? 2 5 A. That's in the laboratory, yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024542 AA I Q. Very detailed on (-.hat? 2 A. Yes. 3 MR, C RAW FORDs Say, David, about, ready 4 Cor a break? b MR. LACEY: Why don't you let. we 6 finish -7 MR. CRAWFORDt All right.. 0 MR. LACEY: -- thi3 document right 9 here? ] 0 Q. (Ry Mr. I.acey) In fact, in talking about l l the test procedures here on Page 47, Document ] 2 No. 2017, it. expresses you should -- "Danger. Make 11 sure to check knob is in the check position 1 4 otherwise painful shock will result"? IS A. That's right. 1 6 Q. Just down to the point of. exactly where to 1 7 set the particular controls at any point in the 1 8 testing, right? 19 A. That's correct. 2 0 THE REPORTER! "Twenty" or 21 "tKenty-seven" seventeen? 22 MR. I.ACEY: 2017. 21 Q. (Ry Mr. Lacey) Talks at another point, on 24 Page 48, No. 2 018, another caution; talks about, the 2 b 500 volt D.C. charge and the shock hazard that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024543 3 i7 I exists In handling the apparatus, correct? 2 A . That's correct.. 3 Q. The next page, it observes again, 4 underlined, the possibility c>f painful shock, 5 doesn't it? 6 A. If you get a jolt of 500 volts ~ 7 Q. you'll know it, won't you? 8 A . - you'll know it. 9 Q. Okay. In fact, that chapter on the test 10 procedures goes on and on and on, doesn't it? It's 1 1 a p r e11 y long chapter? 1 2 A. This was the area in which 3 operated. 13 I've been trying to get that across to you. 1 4 Q. Okay. Then you had -15 A. Now you're learning. 1 6 Q. Then you had a chapter on the typical l 7 properties of Aroclors, correct? 18 A. Yes . 19 Q. And yougave the 2 0 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- the trade names and what they were made 2 2 up of? 2.3 A. And the specifications. 24 Q. And you have specifications Cor each 2 5 Aroclor? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024544 .1 H I A . That's correct. 2 Q. All r i q h t. , And that, ban all sorts of 3 data 11 in there, all the constants that (jo with it? 4 A. And this is the same data that is 5 documented at the American Society for Testing and 6 Materials and, also, internationally. 7 Q. Then we have the chapter on earth a trcatment .... 9 A. Yes. ] 0 Q. and it describes specifically how you l l COIllLd CILter Aroelors t h rough special earth to take 1 2 Oil t impurities, correct? 13 A . This is correct, 1 4 Q Refines the specific places you could get 15 t h e materials and alL of what it takes to order i t 16 and do it, correct? 17 A . This is correct. 1 8 Q. Okay. Then we come to the chapter on 19 dermatology and toxicology. Now, did you write that 2 0 chapter? 21 A. Well, this was given to me fro* the medical 2 2 department. 2 3 Q . 1 s r. e . 2 4 A. 1 did not - -- 1 don't know what you mean by 2 5 "write it." NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024545 -i .1 'j I Did r. copy it down; did I formulate 2 this; did 1 decide what, to put. here? 3 No . 4 &. Okay. 5 A. I received this from the medical f, department. r know exactly what ia In here, and 7 this is where it. came from. 8 Q. Okay. WflLl, lot me stop -9 A. And --- oh. I'm sorry. l 0 Q. I'm sorry. Go ahead. You can tell me 1 1 about the medical. l 2 A. Well - 1 3 0 . I've got. 1 4 A. Well, here again, in this area, talk to our 15 nodical people. ) 6 Q . Okay. 17 A. t - - I gave what I received. ] 8 Q. Now, in the other chapters, for example, 19 how to unload a tank car, you got that from your 20 plant people, correct? 21 A. Yes, I did. 2 2 Q. And it. gave a t. e p by s t e p what to do just 23 the way your plant people did it, correct? 2 4 A . This is cor reel. 2 5 Q. And on the storage tanks, you got the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024546 -1 `1 u 1 Information there from your plant people and gave 2 step by step ;just how to handle a storage tank, .3 correct? 4 A . This is right.. 5 Q. And on the section about laboratory 6 procedures, that, came step by step fro* 7 A. Well, we went'through the whole thing. 8 (). Yes. 9 A. We're right on the entire thing there -l 0 Q. Yes. 1 1 A. - - that you're talking about. l 2 Q. Well, let irg ask my question. 1 3 Now, on the laboratory procedures, you l 4 went step by step just the way Monsanto did it in 15 the laboratory, correct? 16 A. And as it was done by others in the field, 1 7 industry, yes. 18 Q. Okay. The same thing with filtering the 19 Aroclors through the earth, step by step just like 2 0 Monsanto did it, correct? 21 A. Yes. We already said all these things. 22 Q. I want, to make sure that each set of 2 3 directions were step by step just like Monsanto did 2 4 it themselves, correct? 2 5 A. Yes. Yes . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024547 41 I Q. Now -- 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. -- my question to you is: On t he 4 deraatology and toxicology and safe handling, did 5> you set out there step) by step in detail exactly how 6 PCB's were handled In Monsanto's plants? 7 A. No. I went in accordance with what was 8 given to me by the medical department. 9 Q. So, that's the only portion of this book l 0 that doesn't give the step by step handling 1 1 procedures the same way Monsanto did it in their 1 2 plants; isn't that right? 13 A. Oh, it doesn't do this. This I have to 1 4 agree. [ agree with you on this. IS Q. And every other portion of the book does l 6 give the step by steps, doesn't it? 1 7 A. Yes . 18 Q. And the reason you put that in there is 19 because that's what the medical department gave you 2 0 to put in there? 21 A . Tha t ' s where it came from. 2 2 Q. And they're the ones -- 2 3 A . Or . Sichwarts! ' s k in - patch test. 2 4 Q Did Dr. Schwartz give that to y o u ? 25 A . Mo. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024548 I Q . Who g a v e 11 1 o you? 2 A. That, came from tho medical department. 3 Q. Or. Kelly? 4 A. Well, it came through him, let me. say. 5 T h a l ' 3 where it came from. 6 Q. Prom Dr. Kelly? 7 A . Prom the medical department. a Q. Well, do you know whether it came from 9 Dr. Kelly or -- or one of hl3 people? 1 0 A. oh, I don't know. I -- I can't, answer l 1 this. It. came from that area. 12 Q, Who was working with Dr. Kelly in the 13 medical department back in 1954? 1 4 A. T think Kimor Wheeler was there. 15 Q. Were they aware of the type of book you J 6 were writing for everything else and what this was 1 7 going to go into? 3 a A. What this information here would be 19 included In? 20 Q. Yes. 2 l A. They should have been. 22 Q. You made, them aware of that? 23 A. It was certainly to my knowledge, yes. 2 4 Q. Okay. 2 5 A. That was the operation procedure, yes. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024549 34 3 I Q . Mid after you got th.it bac k and put the 7 rest of the book together, it. was finally done and 3 then provided to customers, correct? 4 A . This iti correct.. 5 Q Okay . C believe Mr. Crawford indie a tea f> it's a b o uI time to take a break; so, why don't we 7 stop right here? 8 THR VIDKOGKAPHKR : Me are now qoinq 9 off the record. The time is 2;3 6 p.m. 10 (Short Reces s) l l THK VrnROCRAPHRR : Me are now back on 1 2 the record. The time is 2s59 p.m. 13 Q. (8y Mr. bacey) Mr, Benignus, let me show 1 4 you document 2052 through 2138 and ask you if this 15 isn't an updated version of your work on the proper 1 6 hand]inq of Aroclors and their mixtures in the l 7 Electrical Industry. 1 0 A . That. in. 19 Q. And thin work follows the format of the 20 original in that it has a Ll of the detailed 21 information in each chapter on the specific Monsanto 2 2 procedures for doing everything with the exception 2 3 of the - not having the specific, detailed 2 4 procedures on exactly how Monsanto handies PCB's in 2 f> their plant, units; is that correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024550 `1 4 1 A . That's the way it roads. 2 Q . Okay. Then, let. me: show you -- - by the way, 3 tha what was the date of that update? 4 A . '56 . 5 Q Okay. And why did you produce: an updated 6 vers ion in 1956? 7 A . We: ran out.. 8 Q Okay . 9 A. That's all. t 0 Q . You sold out the first printing? 1 1 A. It went. They were intended for a handful l 2 of: customers; and where they aLL went, I don't know. 1 3 Q. Okay. Now, let me show you another l 4 document, 2139 through 2252, and ask you if this is 1 f> a 1960 update of your previous work entitled "The l 6 Proper Handling of Aroclors and Their Mixtures in 1 7 the Klmetrical Industry." 18 A. Yes, it is. 19 Q. And was that printed because the 1956 20 edition had run out? 21 A . Sad to nay, yea. 22 Q. You you had a popular work there? 2 3 A . I - - it dumbfounded me, really 2 4 Q - flow many copies of this thing d o y o u t h i n k 2 5 got. distributed between 1952 , 1 956, and 1960? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024551 I A . don't know. 2 Q. Quite a few of then. 3 A . Quite a few. 4 Q. Did people who got the 1952 edition also 5 get a 1956 edition? 6 A . Not. necessarily. l don't know why they 7 would want another one. 8 Q . Now, the - - the 195 2 edition and the 1956 9 editions were almost identical, were they not? 1 0 A . Correct. 1 1 Q Let. me compare with you the 1956 edition l 2 t h e i960 edition to look a t the changes or 13 additions that, were present there. Now, that's the 14 '56 edition, and here's the '60 edition. 15 1 thought we night look at the - - just, 16 the index or table of contents. 1 7 A . Okay. 1 8 Q. It appears that in 1960 you added some 19 additional chapters. We've still got "Unloading 20 Tank Cars." We've still got. "Storage Tanks," got a 21 "Gasketing and Pump Tanking" -- "Pump Packing." 22 A . U h - h u h . 2 3 Q. We've qot "Sampling Methods." We've got 2 4 "Laboratory Analysis and Test Procedures." 25 A . Uh-huh . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024552 34n t Q We ' v e q o t a section on "Typical 2 Propertie." 3 k. Oh . 4 &. And then we have a new Chapter No. B in the 5 I960 radi t ion , don't we, ca l led "Quality ReguLromonts 6 of Aroclora Prior to Use in Rlectrical Industry"? 7 A . Yea . Okay. a Q And then we have a chapter on " Earth 9 Ret' i n e m e n t . " That ' s Chapter 9 here -1 0 A . Yes . Yes. 11 Q. - where i. t used to be Chapter 8? 1 2 A . Right. . 1 3 Q And t. h e n we have another chapter called 14 "Contamination," which ia new. 1 5 A . Yes 16 Q And another chapter called "Reworking 17 Contamina ted Transformer AskeraL," which is new? ia A . Yes 19 Q And then the same last chapter - 20 k. Yes 21 Q. -- culled "Dermatology and Toxicology," 2 2 corract? 2 3 MR. CRAWFORD: David, have you 2 4 identified both those documents by numbers? 2 5 MR. I,ACKY I 1 believe, we have. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024553 .i 4 / 1 Th e 1 9 S 6 document is 2 0 5 2 through 2 2 13 8 , and the 1960 document is 2139 through 2252. 3 MR . CRAWFORD: Okay. 4 MR . l.ACKY: Have we got a -- have we 5 got something on Mr. Wheeler? 6 MR . SHOKHOTHAMt Why don't, we --- why 7 don't we (jo off the record? a MR. l.ACKY Well, why don't we just. go 9 ahead and leave It on the record so I've got it? i o That will - 11 MR. SHOKHOTHAM: Why don't we take it l 2 off the video? 1 3 MR. IiAGKY: That's fine to take it off l 4 the video. That'3 - i a THE VIDEOGRAPHEN: We're about to go 16 off the record -- off the video. The time is 3:03 17 p . m . IB THE REPORTER: Who are you, please? 19 MU. 5H0KB0THAM: E' John `.5 hoebo t ha m . 20 I** an attorney representing Monsanto Company. 21 MR. CRAWFORD: God, do we need to 2 2 swear him in? 23 MR. SHOKHOTHAM: Mr. Reniqnus, 1 2 4 haven't met. you. t'm Mr. Shoebot.haa. 2 b THE WITNESS: I'm Mr. Henignus. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024554 -II O I MR. SHOW BOTHAM i E .1 ni ijo L nij to - 2 Mr. Lacey has asked me for dates on which 3 Mr. Wheeler, Mr. Rimer Wheeler, will be available 4 for his deposition. Mr. wheeler will be available 5 for his deposition on M a y 6, 7, or 8 , 1987. 6 Mr. Wheeler would prefer to do the 7 deposition In either Camden or Columbia, South a Carolina, due to health considerations. He has 9 difficulties in traveling because of some health 1 o concerns. He would be available in either one of i i those two places, either Camden or Columbia. 1 2 He, also because of his health 1 3 concerns, does not want to be in a situation where 1 4 the deposition days last too long; and we would make 15 him available for two days and would hope that the 16 days would be a little shorter in view of his l 7 hea l tli . 18 MR. I.ACKY: What is considered a day 19 that he would want to spend in deposition? 20 MR. 5HORHOTHAM: 1 don't, know an exact, 2 1 number of hours. I can get that for you, though, 2 7 certainly. 2 8 MR . I.ACKY : Okay . 24 MR. 15 HO K BOTH AMs I suggest we schedule 2 him perhaps for May 7 th and 81. h, if that's NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. J STLCOPCB4024555 .i 4 4 I acceptab Le w i t h you; but 1 think .any one ot those 2 three days are f i no with him. 3 Mil . LACEY: 13 there one place that 's 4 easier to get to than t. h e other ? 5 MR . S H 0 K a 0 T H A M : I w o u L <1 guess 6 Columbia, but I don't know. 7 MR . LACEY; Lot mo got back to you by a Friday. 9 Are you going to be going out to San i o Diego? 1i MR . SHOEHOTHAM: No. 1 2 MR . LACEY: Le t me get back to you by 1 3 Friday, ei the r by phone or whatever; and we' 11 pick 14 a data and a p Lace after I've checked the airline 1 ii schedule. ) 6 I am inclined at this time to go with l 7 the 7th in Columbia just because L suspect we can ia get there easier than Camden. 19 But yo,i are able to assure me you will 2 0 be able to produce him7 2 l MR. S HO KBOTH AM : Yes. 2 2 MR. I.ACF.Y: So, we will not go 2 3 pursuant to the subpoena? 2 4 MR. SHOEBOTHAMj This is off the 2 5 rnconl. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024556 .1 u 1 (Discussion of (! the Record) 2 Q (By Mr, I.acey) With the 1 960 version of 3 "The Proper Handling of Aroclors and Their Mixtures 4 in the KlectricaJ Industry," what was the purpose of ri adding the chapters on "Quality Requirements," 6 "Contamination," and "Reworking Contaminated 7 Asker.il"? 8 A . The purpose of the whole thing , I assure 9 you , was to pass along any information that we had 1 0 that we felt would be of interest. And we've done l l our very best 1 2 Q Okay 1 3 A . And you understand the area 1 am concerned l4 in. 1 h Q Yes. And, again, this 1960 version, like 16 the pve v i 0 113 two versions, had ail the d e t a i lad 1 7 information about exactly how Monsanto did each step 1 8 in every chapter except "Dermatology and 19 Toxicology," correct? 2 0 k. This is correct. 21 Q. Okay. And in that chapter on "Dermatology 2 2 and Toxicology" what was supplied was the 2 3 information t. hr medical department gave to you to 24 include in this work? 2 b A. That's the information that, was available NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024557 AS 1 1 to mo, correct, 2 Q. Right:. Did you actually review the 3 InConation provided to you .about dermatology and 4 toxicology to ensure that, it met what you knew; or 3 just because it was supplied, you put it in'? 6 A. It met what I had read previously. And 1 7 think t.hl3 is it. And this ret era to things th.it 8 had been published in the literature, et. cetera. 9 Q. Let me ask you a couple of questions about 1 0 some of the material in that, section on dermatology l t and toxicology. 1 2 A . All right. 13 Q. r think that the Language remains 1 4 relatively constant through all three versions. 15 A . 11 does. 16 Q. See if I can get the three versions here in 17 front of us. 1 0 This is the 1956 version -19 A. And this is --20 Q. The 1960 version. 2 1 A. '60.All right. 22 Q. And we have here, also, the 1952 version. 2.3 A. Ves. 2 Q. Now, the first, paragraph in each one of 25 these versions or additions, C guess, maybe would NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024558 /. 1 be the way to put LI; taLks about skin contact; Is 2 that correct? 3 A. Where? 4 Q. In the first paragraph. 5 A. "3k In shows no primary irritancy or 6 sensitization. " 7 I think this in different, isn't it? 8 Q. Well, what f'in asking about is whether the 9 first paragraph in each one talks about skin. 1 0 A. This one certainly does, the one I'm 1 1 reading. 3 7 Q. Okay. A nd the other two? 13 A . 1 see "skin " here and "skin" here. 1 4 Q. Okay . Now , in the 1952 versi on and the 1 5 1956 version, the first paragraph about skin is 16 identical in each one, i a .it not? These two are 17 both identical? 18 A. They seem to be, yea. 19 Q. And, in fact, if we go to the second 2 0 paragraph, the section on toxicology and skin is 2 1 identical? 2 2 A. This is right.. 2 3 Q. The third paragraph is also identical on 2 4 these two, the ' f 2 and ~ 2 5 A. One, two, three. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024559 383 I Yo 3 . 2 Q. And the fourth paragraph ia almost 3 identical. There's a change Ln the numbers for the 4 appropriate concentrations, is there not? 8 A. From this is a 2; and tills was a l, n 6 sec. 7 Q. Yes. Hut otherwise, those paragraphs are 8 identical, are they not? 9 A. Correct . 1 0 Q. Now, in the 1982 version, in that paragraph l 1 about air concentrations, you indicated that tha 1 2 safe concentration was in the range of .8 to 1 13 nil l iijtMin per cubic meter of air, correct? 1 4 A . Yes. 1 8 Q. Iti t. he 19 8 6 version, you raised that, safe 16 concentration from ~- to 1 to 2 mil Li grans per cubic 1 7 meter of air? 1 8 A. I didn't raise it.. That's probably a 19 typographical error or something. 2 0 Q. Okay. Okay. So, you think that -- 2I A. It's ~~ it's in the it's in the order of 2 2 magnitude there. 2 3 Q. Okay. 2 4 A. There's not anything significant on that. 2 5 Q. Tire -- Let we go ahead and get tire '82 and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024560 34 I '36 versions compared before we look at '60, which 2 is somewhat different. 3 A. Okay. All right. 4 Q. The next paragraph -- and I'll just, get you 5 to look at those -- 6 A. Okay . 7 Q. - the next paragraph in the 19b2 and ' bf> 8 versions are Identical, are they not? Here - 9 A . "Laboratory" - 10 Q. --"Technique." 1 1 A. All right. Yes. l 2 Q. Then the next para g rap h Is also identical, 13 is it not? 14 A. Yes. 1 S Q . And 1he next paragraph? 16 A. Yes. Now, this is plant procedure -- 1 7 Q. Okay. 18 A. -- Incidentally. 19 Q. Ye8. We'll talk about that in a second. 2 0 A. All right. 21 Q. The next paragraph, is that also identical? 2 2 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. And then the last, paragraph, is that also 2 4 identica l ? 2S A . Yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024561 .s I Q '.3 o, the only difference between the '52 -- 2 A . Is 1 versus 2. .3 Q. - - is the air concentration. And you think 4 that may be a typographical 5 A . That -- that may be an aberration. 6 o.. Okay. Let's talk about the changes between 7 the 1956 version and then the I960 version. Now, a again, these changes were made by the medical 9 department, information they supplied you; is that 1 o correct? i i A. Well, some of t. his is the same. I think l 2 there are statements added here. If they are - 3 3 this - speaking of an open transformer, no, that l 4 probably isn't from the medical department. This is i a fro* the --- the industry, who -- who makes 16 transformers -1 7 Q Okay. i a A . -- - and our judgment. I - - 1 would agree 19 with it. If a transformer a temperature above is 20 opened - if it's above: that, "lo open, provide 2 l exhaust ventilation." I wouldn't need the medical 2 2 department, to tell me t.hat. . 2 3 Q. Okay. Well, let's - - then, let's stop 2 4 and - and first look at the 19b2 and 1956 versions; 2 5 because apparently the I960 version has some NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024562 J`ih I information that you put In there other than from 2 the medical department, correct? 3 A. I would say thin is correct. 4 G. Well, let'3 htap; and let me auk you to 5 look at the 1956 version of; your '* Derma to L ogy and 6 Toxicology" section. Could you do that for me? 7 A. This? You want me to Look at -- a Q. Yen, the 1956 version. 9 A. I'm seeing it. io Q . Well, that'n you're actually looking at 11 the I960. 1 2 A. '60. Well, X don't have the '56 version. 13 Q. That's what I'm trying to -- 1 4 A . Oh . 15 Q. - - hand you right hero. 1 6 A. Oh, all right. 17 I'm seeing it, yes. 18 Q. Okay. Can I hand that to you? 19 A. Oh, sure. 2 0 Q. Okay. Now, in looking at the? information 2 l on dermatology and toxicology in the 1956 version - - 2 2 A. That'a this. 2 3 q. -- of your book, what information in there 2 4 did not come from the medical department., if any? 2 5 A. Only the second p a g o, too. For instance. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024563 I " r, o c a 1 i ?. e r spot ventilation toq other with general 2 workroo* exhaust, is recommended for plant. 3 operations." 4 Q-. Did that come from the medical depart ment.? 5 A. I roally don't know. T really don't know, 6 b u t. i t i s t. h e r e . 7 Q. Where m i q h t it have come from if not. from 3 the medical department? 9 A. It's a statement that makes sense. I would 10 think maybe fro* the industrial hygiene -- well, 1 1 that, is the medical department. l 2 rt's a statement th.it certainly makes 1 3 sense and could have well come fro* the medical 1 4 department or the plant department or -- or 1 5 wherever. J 6 Q. What about that next .... l 7 A. In other words, it talks about spot 1 8 vent, i lation . 19 Q. All right. What, about that next paragraph, 20 which Indicates that canvas gloves, safety glasses, 21 or goggles should be worn when sampling tank cars; 22 did that come from the medical department? 23 A. It was 3 don't know if it originated 2 4 with the medical department or whether it came E r o a 2 S t he plant.. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024564 I Okay 2 A . It. may have come from the plant. Hut .1 certainly, run by the medical department. I'm sure 4 they would agree. It. seems t.o me that t hat, i a 5 plant procedure that you asked about. 6 Q . Now, in regard to t his paragraph talking 7 about sampling tank cars, does that talk only about 8 when sampling tank cars; or does that talk about 9 other procedures, in addition, where a person is 1 0 working with PCB's? l l A. It says, "when sampling tank cars." 1 2 Q. Yeah. So, the next sentence - 1 3 A. That's why 1 say I think it came from our 1 4 plant.. lb Q. Okay. And does the next, sentence about. 16 cLothing also refer to people who sample tank car 3 ? 1 7 A. That, would -- should - should apply to l 8 anybody, yourself or myself, if it gets spilled on 1 9 us, yes . 2 0 Q. Okay. So, the section there that says no 21 spscldl clothing is required and recommends 2 2 laundering the workeirs ' garments weekly - 2 2 A. Yes. 2 4 Q. - would refer not. only to people sampling 2 5 tank cars, but also to peopLe working in a plant NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024565 t with PCH's? 2 A . Yea. Yes , 2 Q . Okay. 4 A. That'a why that 3a there. Yes, that's a 5 (jeiKitM l statement. 6 Q. With reqard to the remainder of this the 7 next last two p a r a < j r a p h s, did that also come from 8 the medical department, or from some other source? 9 A. C would say that this came from the 1 0 rapdc.i tor-i mpi e.qnati nq industry. This is standard 1 t practice there, when opening a 12 c. a pac 3 tor -impregnating chamber, that a respirator 1 2 should be worn durirnj these short Intervals. One 1 4 won] d find a r e s {,> .3 rator in that ar ea . 15 Q. So, t he people that you were writing this 1 6 for gave y o u the information to p ut. in there t o 1 7 write back to them, then? 1 8 A. It could have originated there, yes. 19 Q. Did it originate there? 20 A . I would say that statement did originate 2 l there. 2 2 Q. Okay. So, that, didn't come from the 22 m e dL c a L department, then? 2.4 A. I wouldn't think so. I think they would 2 5 agree with this as a matter of fact. That's why a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024566 -i b U 1 respirator is there, to protect. 2 Q. Okay. What about the last, paragraph? Did 2 that paragraph come from the medical department? 4 A . I ' * not sure that this came from the l5 medical department or whether tills came from general 6 consensus from the .... from the industry. 7 Q. There is a reference there to chlorinated 8 benzene. That is talking about the benzene ring 9 that you drew for us yesterday, but replacing one or 1 0 more of the hydrogen atoms on it with a chlorine l l atom? 1 2 A . Yeah . 13 Q. Okay. And some of the transformer fluids l 4 had a mixture of PCH's and chlorinated benzene; is 1 8 that, correct? 16 A. This is correct. 1 7 Q. And that's why you reference chlorinated 18 benzene? 19 A . This is correct. 20 Q. Now, let me auk you to look, If you w o u L d, 21 at the 1960 version. I'll take that '86 version - 2 2 A . Okay. 2 3 Q - - and get it out. of the way here. 2 4 Let me look at the I960 version wit h 2 8 y o u . And 1 tr t.'s go back to the first portion of the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024567 lh l I section there on - - we ` ve gone - - we've m i 3 s o d it, 2 haven ' t we? 3 T r y 1 n g t. o find where it beq j nri , Here 4 we go 5 A Oh . 6 Q. The chapter on dermatology and toxico)oqy 7 starts at Document No. 2243. Now, the Cirst 8 paragraph, does t.3iat. come from the medical 9 department? 1 0 A. 1 would say so. l l Q . A L 1 right. 3 2 A . That's my impression. 1 1 Q. And, again, you have indicated to me that 1 4 you would say, if if it were up to you, that if 3 5 PCR's get on the akin, they should bo washed off 3 f immediately with soap and water, correct? 1 7 A. Within reasonable promptness, yes. 1 8 Q . Okay. 19 A. Right. 1 would say that, any time. 20 Q. Now, the second paragraph, that's that same 21 paragraph on sampling tank cars, correct? 2 2 A . Yes. Y e s . 2 3 Q. And t h e 3 e c o n d sentence there talks about 24 the gener.il attire of; workmen both around tank cars 2 h and in the plant., working with PCH 1 3 , correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024568 I A . 0 a y I; h L a a ga i. n . 2 Q. Yes. The first sentence in this second 3 paragraph - 4 A. "When sampling tank cars." 5 Q. - - talks about wearing gloves -- 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. and safety glasses when sampling tank 8 oars? 9 A. Yeah. 1 0 Q. Now, the second sentence talks about no 1 1 special, clothing and laundering the workers' 1 2 garments once a week? l1 A. Yes . 14 () . Now, that relates not. only to people t 5 sampling tank cars, but also to people working In 16 the plant with PCH's? 17 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. 19 A. Yes. 2 0 Q. Now, the third paragraph talks about 21 burns. 2 2 A . 11 h - h u h . 23 Q. Did that information come from the medical 24 department? 2 b A . Yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024569 .1 l) .1 I Q And it also h a s in thn re the eye 2 A . Yes . 3 Q. ..... problem and nuqgeats to see a doe tor if 4 there's - e> A. Yes. 6 Q . - oye contact? 7 A. Wight.. That came from the medical 8 ilftpa ctun n t. 9 Q. Okay. If we qo to the next page, where it l 0 talks about vapors In the first paragraph -- 1 J A . Yes. 1 2 Q. - did that information c.owe from the L 3 med i ca L de pa rt mr n t ? I 4 A . Yen. 1 S Q. Now, again, here on the concentration l 6 levels - 1 7 A . Wait a minute. Wait, a minute. Wait a l 8 niinutn. Wa i t a minute. 1 9 "Vapors from hot A roc: lor or Askeral 20 have a degree of toxicity and sliouLd not be Inhaled 21 over a prolonged period of time." This, the medical 22 department, would agree .with. T would say this. 2 3 This just makes common, ordinary sense;, t h a the 2 4 vapors from the hot A r o c: l o r or AskaroLs have a 2 b degree of toxi ci t y and should not. be i nh a 1 e d o v e r a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024570 I prolonged period of: time. 2 Anyth in <j I've ever stated said avoid 1 breathing the vapors and dusts from PCR's, And this 4 is well established. So, the medical department, I 5 assure you, would not disagree with it. r'm well 6 aware of this myself. I've always said this. it's / a, you might say, wel l- documented and 8 we! l-established stat ement , 9 Q. Well, did that 1 0 A. Do not. inhale vapors from a FCB's, \ l Q. Did that statement, though, come from the 1 2 medical department; or is that your statement.? 11 A. Originally it would have come from the 1 4 medical depart men t . 1 l> Q. Okay. Now, in this section we return to 16 the .5 to l -] 7 A. Kxcuse me. It. would come from the medical 18 department within the boundaries of Monsanto. And 19 anybody that knows about PCB's would -- would agree 2 0 with this. Anyone understanding PCfi's would agree 2 1 with it. I have no area of disagreement., is what 2 2 I'm saying on this. 21 Q. Okay. 2 4 A. Okay? 2 8 Q. And it. - and it comes from the medical NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024571 ihn 1 department, L n i. t L a L ! y ? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay- Well, do you disagree with anything 4 in hare that comes from the mod Leal department? i> A . No, I don't.. (j Q. Okay. Now, in this first paragraph, 7 talking about, air concentration - 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q . - and vapors 1 0 A . Yeah . 1 t Q. we see the . ii t. o 1 milligram per cubic l '7 meter o f a i r a ga i n. ] 3 A . Yes, 1 4 Q That goes back to the 19b 2 version, does it. 1 5 not? 1 6 A . Yes. 17 Q . Okay. Now, when we go to the second l 0 paragraph, dons that information come from the 1.9 medical department? 7.0 A. No. The medical, department doesn't 2 1 necessarily know that a capacitor impregnation may 7 7 be d o n e at a temperature as hi g h .is 26 6 d o g r e e s 2 3 Falire.nhei t.. They would have read this, but this 24 didn't come from the medical department. 3. c> This came from knowledge as to how NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024572 bb I high t he Impregnation i. a done, at times 130 degrees 2 centigrade. 3 Q. So, that, second paragraph on Document 4 Mo. 22 4 4 comes from somebody other than the medical, h d e p a r t in e n 1 ? ft A . 11 comes from t he knowledge that capar.i tors 7 are often impregnated as high as 130 degrees a centigrade, correct. 9 Q . And is that something you knew and wrote i o down? 11 A . 3 o me t h i rig I wou 1 d have known. 12 Q Okay . 1 3 A . And any capacitor maker wou1d have known. 1 4 Q Wlr.it about t h e t h i r d paragraph ; does that 1 f. also come from some, thing you knew, as opposed to the tft medical department? 1 7 A. I would know this, and the medical t 8 department would know this. 19 Q. Well, did that statement in the third 20 paragraph come from the medical department or you? 2 1 A . This statement her?'? 2 2 Q. Yes. 2 3 A . It. could have c.ome from either. 2 4 fet me 3a y this: If T were to say to 2 -I the medical depart, mem t that, the Askeral transformers NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024573 .3 n : I an; used at t e m p o r a t u re 3 above -- exr.usfi mo. Oh - 2 "if transformer Ask are]s" -- I'm sorry -- "fluids 3 are used at temperatures above this to fill an open 4 transformer" -- okay --- "exhaust ventilation should 5 be provided in the immediate area." 6 Now, 3 5 0 degrees F is wore typical of 7 a transformer situation than 130 degrees C. Now, I R know if AskareJs are heated to this temperature, 9 the there will be vapors and fume3; and, 1 0 therefore, this calls for exhaust ventilation, as I l L say; because any time you hear me say anything, I ] 7. say, "Do not breathe the vapors emitted at elevated 1.1 temperatures." And I would say that 150 degrees ] 4 Fahrenheit is is perhaps the starting point, of 1 5 t hat. 16 Q. Well, my question to you, though, is l 7 whether that third paragraph on 2244 i3 something 18 that, was provided to you by the medical department, 19 or that you put in yourself based on your own 7 0 knowledge. 21 A. I think 1 provided it and --- and discussed 2 7 it and ran it t h r o ti g h the medical department and it 2 3 was put in he r e. 2 4 Q. Okay. What, about, the fourth paragraph on 2 5 2 24 4 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024574 -i f, o I A . T h L 3 one? 2 Q. - did that come from the medical 1 department or from you? 4 A. This came from the industry. And you'll `5 run Into this statement in other Literature that is 6 from the industry. 7 t2. Who in the industry provided you with that 8 infofdidt ion? 9 A. People who made transformers would have l 0 been the o n e 3 to comment and provide this, 1 1 tranaforiier manufacturers . l 2 Q. That one - 1 3 A . Hecause they are the people: who impregnated 1. 4 capacitors and filled transformers, and this is 1 t> their consensus. And to my knowledge, 1 don't know 16 of anything that would refute the industry's --- it 1 7 demonstrates the: industry's ability to handle these l 8 fluids without hazards to the workmen. 19 Nobody that 1 know of came to Monsanto 2 0 with a problem along these lines. Lt says, "The 21 years of satisfactory use demonstrates the industry 2 2 ability to handle these fluids.'' 2 3 Q. Did you go -2 4 A. That's the consensus in the industry. 2h Q. Did you go out and canvass the companies NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024575 11> l t h<i t a s e d A a k a r e 1 3 to iietermi.no that they h a d not 2 had any problems 9 .1 A. No . 4 Q . Well, how did y o u come up with the 1 a n q u a ge r) tot' that statement, then ? 6 A . 3 think You'll find that in - - in / p a b l L 0 a t. ions. a il . Well, we've seen similar statements in 9 other Monsanto publications. ] 0 A . No. I mean other than Monsanto 11 p u b l L O A t i o n s . 1 2 Q Whose publications will we find t. hat in? 13 A . Well, t think you'll f. ind that in some 1 4 later publications where the electrical industry l ri writes about these things. 1 6 Q Wei), what publications would I look at to l 7 find that? i a A . I would say ANSI and NEMA . 19 Q. Okay. And that's N a t i o n a l Kloctri c; a L 2 0 Manufacturers Association? 2 l A . Yes . 2 2 And you haven't, looked at these, yet. 2 1 Q Okay. Maybo we con do that. 2 4 T h e last paragraph on that page -... 2r> A . AIL right. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024576 1/U 1 Q. -- we've mi. as fid that - in talking about, 2 good housekeeping. Where did that statement come 3 from? 4 A . This i a general, you might say, 5 observation, a general statement, that it is both 6 simple and in line with qood housekeeping and 7 personal cleanliness, the exercise of: suggested 0 precautions in all cases. 9 Q. Did that come - ~ 1 0 A. It's u sensible statement t omake, isn't 1 l i t? 1 7 Q. Well, my question is: Where did it cone t 3 from? The medical department or you? 1 4 A. They would certainly agree with it. 15 Q. But where did it coma from, initially? You 1 6 or the medical d e p ar t m e nt ? l 7 A. C really don't know. It's a general 1 0 interest statement of common sense. 11.'s - - it's 19 not a detailed medical presentation of modieaL data 2 0 or so forth. 2 1 Q. It doesn't have much specifics with it? 2 2 A. It doesn't have much specifics. It's just 2 3 an overall general statement to exercise these 7.4 precautions. Why make the.se precautionary 2 0 statements if you're going to say don't, exercise NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024577 .1 - i 1 thorn? 2 Q. Okay . 3 A . This is what. 1 ' m trying to flay. 4 Q. Okay. And then we've got the last 5 A. Veah , "Arced Askeral . " 6 Q . Yeah . 7 A , Uh huh. 8 Q. Where did this paragraph come from? 9 A. This cornea fro# observations and studies by 1 0 the Under writ, er ' s Laboratories, originally. Those l l studies were sponsored at the Underwriter's by 1 2 people like General Klee trie and Westinghouse and so l 3 forth. 1 4 Q. So, thin comes from Underwrit, er's 15 fj a b o r a t. orien ' materials? 1 6 A. Thin is where this comes from. 17 Q. Okay. i a A. This is where t hat originates. 19 Q. Have we found out the sources of aL l the 7.0 statements that you've got in this 1960 version on 21 "Dermatology and Toxicology"? 7 2 A. An far as 1 know. 2 3 Q. Okay. And you were the author of the book, 2 4 at least, nominally? 2 5 A. Yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024578 I Q. Okay. Let me ask you about your knowledge 2 of the way transformer plants and capacitor plants 3 operated. Did you ever visit your customers' plants 4 to s *e how they operated? `5 A . I've been in plants, yes, Q . W h a t. plants did you visit.? 7 A. I visited - - I've been in the pLanfc at 8 Hudson Falls, New York. 9 Q. Whose plant, is that? 1 0 A . General Fllectr j c . 1 1 Q. What other plants? 1 2 A. I've been iri - - 1 visited the plant at l 3 R loon inijt.on, Indiana, once. 1 4 Q. Whose - 1 b A. ! don't know if it was operating, but. I 16 was - - I've been -1 7 Q . Whose plant -- 18 A. -- in the building. ] 9 Q. Whose plant, was that? 20 A. That's Wostimihousc. 2 1 Q. Okay. 2 2 A. I've been in the building. 2.3 Q . What, o t. h e r p 1 a n t. s ? 2 4 A. Rlactrical Utilities at LaSalle, Illinois. 2 b Q . I.aSalle? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024579 I A. They might have bn*', n - LaS.i 1 In, ynah. 2 They're out of business. 3 Q. Kiftc tr Lea l Utilities? 4 A. Yea. 5 Q . W h .11 others? 6 A . I really didn't. - T want, to explajn 7 something here. I a e L d o m - - I never d i d really g o 8 out specifically t. o visit, a plant. It was 9 incidental on calling on the peopLe that they J 0 would - - somehow or other we'd get out into the l l plant area, to get a Coke or something like that and 1 2 no forth. 13 Q. I see. 1 4 A . I did not. specifically put on my hat and l 5 coat to go out and visit anybody's plant. 1 6 Q . What did yovi observe being manuf actured at l / the G.K. plant in Hudson Palls, New York? 18 A. Capacitors. 19 Q. What did you observe being manufactured at. 2 0 the Weatinghouse plant in Bloomington? 2 1 A . Capacitors. 2 2 Q. And what did you observe being manufactured 2.3 i n t h e f,a`.la tie, Illinois, K 1 e c t r i cal Utilities 2 4 plan t? 2 S A . Yen. Capacitors, NELL NIC CALLUNI & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024580 .1 4 I Q . Have you e v e r hewn in a plant whore 2 t r a n it f. o r e r a are inanufac.turpd? 3 A I've been at plants where transformers are 4 manufactured. T'm try ina to ~ 5 You want, to know whether l inspected 6 the plant.; is that it? 7 Q. No. What plants have you been al; where 8 transformers are manufactured? 9 A. Oh, have t been at where transformers are 1 0 made? t L Q . ifh - h u h . 1 ?. A. I've been at. the West, ingho use plant. 13 Q . Where? ] 4 A . At. Sharon, Pennsylvania. Now, you 1 5 understand "at the plant" doesn't mean that 1 was 1 6 out in the factory? l 7 Q. I understand. i a A. Okay. Okay. 19 Q. What other plants have you been at where 2 0 transformers were manufactured? 2 l A, I was at the plant buildings, office, at 22 Rome, Georgia G.K. at. Rome, Georgia. 23 Q . T h at was a transformer plant. ? 24 A. That's a transformer plant. 2 5 Q. Okay. What else? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024581 S i `l 1 A . [ W,13 at .in office in G . E . ' 3 transformer 2 plant at Pittsfield. Massachusetts. 3 Q. What else? 4 A . 3 think I've b e e. n at th e plant of 5 A L 1 i s -Ch.i Imers at Pittsburgh, called on a man there. 6 Q. W h a t other- plants? 7 A. Wagoner Klee trie and Maloney Electric. a R . Where were those located? 9 A . 5 t . [<ou i a . 1 0 R. Both of them? 11. A . (Jh huh. 1 2 Q . What else? t 3 A . I think that's about it. 1 4 Q . Okay. 1.5 A. Then; are not that many. lf> Q. Okay. When you visited the General 17 KLee trie Hudson Pa l la, New York, capacitor plant, i a did you go into 1h e area where capacitors were being 19 made? 20 A . I have been in the area at Hudson Falls 2 l where capacitors were being made, yes. 22 Q. Did you 2 3 A. walked through there. 24 r. Did you observe the process of manufacture 2 5 going on ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024582 I A. Yog. Not; that [ was thsra to Lnapact It; 2 but., yea, I observed. 3 Q Did you observe the Arorlor materials beinq 4 handled in a way that you thought wa a appropriate? b A . Well, they were handled i ri - in thin 6 particular location - - it wag appropriate, as f: a r ea 7 1 was concerned, walking through there. 8 There was ventilation, yea. I -- L 9 was not. i rt a position to challenge and ao on and so 1 0 forth. } 1 Q. Well, my question, though, is whether or l 2 not you thought what you saw was appropriate or 1 3 not. . 1 4 A. I accepted that that's what they were ll) doing. ] 6 Q. That's not ay quest, ion. l 7 A. I realize this. 18 Q. Well, c.ould you answer my question? 19 A. I would say I accepted what -- what they 20 ware doing there. 21 I.et. me put. it this way: J was not 2 2 bothered by anything as I waLked through there. 2 3 From that point of view, it's acceptable to me and 24 appropriate. 2 Si Q. Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024583 .1 / / I A. 1 was not: subjected to what I would 2 consider a harmful exposure to fumes, because what. 1 3 was going by it was essentially at room 4 temper a til re . They were; not opening a capacitor 5 chamber and this sort of a thing . I did no I: put 6 a mask. There w a 3 no occasion. Things were a t 7 normal temperature. a Q. Okay. When 9 A, So, from that point, I would say okay. 1 0 Q . When you went to the Westinghouse capacitor 11 plant in Bloomington, Indiana, did you go into the 1 2 area where; capacitors were being made? I 3 A. r don't think it was in operation. When T 1 4 went, there, I was asked - - they had moved there, and 15 Ralph Marberry had taken (great pride in designing 1 6 that plant; and they had moved from East. 1 7 Pittsburgh. j a And he had set up a manifold system - 19 system of impregnation. And his purpose of showing 2 0 e this was to show this method, which was different 21 from the usual method, which is batch flooding. He 2 2 impregnated each capacitor individually. 2 3 B u t I - - the thing wasn't running. It 2.4 was new. It wan there. He had just designed and 2 5 built this thing. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024584 -5 / H I Q- Ho, you saw t li n plant be Toro it actuaLly 2 started up? 3 A. As I remember, 1 saw it before it started 4 up . 8 Q . Did i t. appear to you that the plant was 6 designed as a new plant with appropriate 7 v e n t i 3 a t. i on? 8 A , 1 don't think it was running at that. time. 9 Q. No, that's not my question. Whether It was 1 0 designed -~ 1 l A. Oh, I don't know. 1 2. Q. - to have the appropriate ventilation. I 3 A. f. didn't inspect it. I didn't inspect it. 1 4 (,). You didn't observe anything about that? l 5 A. I didn't inspect their ventilating systems 16 and so forth, no. 17 Q. So, you certainly couldn't, criticize this 18 plant that had been designed by Mr. Marberry? 19 A. I never did. No, I couldn't.. 2 0 Q. And were you impressed -21 A. And I wasn't asked to. 2 2 Q . I understand. 2 3 A. I wasn't there to do that. He merely 2 4 showed this to me. 2 8 Q. Well, were you impressed with the design he NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024585 1 had Cor impregnating those capacitors and thought It 2 was a good one? 3 A. 1 would think so. I see nothing wrong with 4 a manifold im p reg n a t i o n . In fact, he e L t there was b an advantage to it, ( guess. 6 Q. Okay. And you didn't see any disadvantage 7 t. o it? 8 A. T saw no disadvantage to it. 9 Q. Well, what about when you visited the 1 0 LaSalle, Illinois, RIectric Utilities capacitor L l plant; did you go out into the area where capacitors 1 7 were b ein g made? 1 3 A . 1 was there in the area where capacitors 1 4 wore being made, y e s. I've been there. 1 f Q. Did you observe anything that caused you 16 any concern about the way they were handling PCB's? 1 7 A. I felt that their ventilation may not have 1 8 been all that it shouLd be, but I wasn't there to 19 call their inspector or anything else. 20 Q. Did you see -- 21 A. 1 I could smell more Aroclor there at. 22 that point in time than I would have expected to. 2 3 You realize, don't, you, that, you can 24 smell Aroclor? It's not without detectable odor 2 b Q. What does Aroclor swell like? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024586 .s t'. u 1 A. Aroc lor h<*3 a clean odor, is the best I can 2 describe this t.o you, a clean odor. It haa no odor 3 as perfumes or flowers or anything like that. 4 . You wouldn't use it us perfume? 5 A. No, because it doesn't impart that kind of 6 delicate odor. 7 A roc lor doesn't, smell bad. It smells 8 clean. May E say "clean odor?** 9 . This is new A roc 1 or ? l 0 A . [ t ' s -- let me say this: The nearest E can 1 1 that might, be familiar to you is if you go into l 2 the washroom in a public place and you smell the 13 naphthalene okay? -- in other words, the 14 disinfectant. tt's not a odor that upsets one. 15 It's -- it's a clean odor. And it's not a strong 16 odor at normal temperatures. 1 7 Q. This is -- - this is fresh Arcelor? 18 A. Well, T don't know what you mean by "fresh 1 9 Aroclor." 20 Q. Unused. 21 A. I'd say ---unused? 2 2 Q. Yes. 2 3 A. That's true of unused; and it's true of 2 4 used, too. 2 5 Q. So, even A roc lor in a failed t. ransformer or NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024587 5 M i. I a tailed capacitor i. a going to have that same smell? 2 A . Oh, now, wait, a minute. 3 Q. Well, that's what I'm trying to find out. 4 A. Oh. Weil, now, failed, y o u ' r e probably 5 talking a b o u t an arcing failure of a transformer or 6 a case of a capacitor where the thing has consumed 7 itself. 8 Q. What smell would Aioclor have there? 9 A. In those situations -- remember, there's 1 0 more than PC'B inside a transformer. There are l l celLulosi. c materials, in the case of a transformer, 1 2 pressboard, wood, and things like that. l 3 And if: this thing has been subjected 14 to the heat one generates when there's an arc-formed 1 8 gas, you're going to get carbonization and odor 1 6 and -- and so forth that is not at all normal at 1 7 all. It's going to small. You better believe it. ]0 Q. It. 'a goingto have an unpleasant smell? L 9 A. Oh, yea . 2 0 Q. Okay . 21 A. And youhave hydrogen chloride. Yes, very 2 2 pungent. 2 3 Q. Okay. Now, at this KJ ectric Utilities 2 4 plant in LaSalle, ILLinois, you did not feel that 2f> they had the ventilation they should; is that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024588 m />. I corve<: t ? 2 A . I said t. his as a general thing, yes. 3 Q. Did you -4 A . Although, 3 was not uncomfortable. Hut 5 Q Did you ex prons your concern to the people 6 there at. the plant that they were not. handling it 7 well? 8 A . No . 9 Q. You just kept your mouth shut and went on? t 0 A. I wasn't being asked. And, after all, ] 1 they've been working in there day and out -- day in l 2 a nd day out with no report of any h<5a L th hazards i n and - 1 4 Q. Did you ask them when you were there about 15 health problems? 1 6 A. No, I didn't.. l 7 Q . Y o u j u a t. -- back at Monsanto where you 1 8 normally stayed, you never had heard anything about, 19 a health problem there at that plant? 20 A . That's right. I hadn't heard of a hea 1 t.h 2 1 problem at any of these places. 22 Q. Hut. had you ever gone to any of these 2 3 p1aces and attempted to determine whether they had 2 4 any health problems? 2 5 A. N o, I didn't. _________________________________________________________________ NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024589 l .' .5 I Q. Wo L l , you haven't heard of: them. You 2 haven't -- you haven't, inquired about arty, either. 3 It's just -4 A . This in correct. 5 Q. Okay. When you went to tho Westing house f. transformer plant in Sharon, Pennsylvania, did you 7 go out into the area where transformers were B manufactured? 9 A. Yes, where they were being -- the cores 1 0 were being wound. Yes, 1 remember that. 1 1 Q. Did you observe their use of PCIl's? l? A. T. don't think, actually, that I did. I 1 3 must have passed some tanks where they were. I 14 didn't ~ - in that plant, the only thing I remember lb there was people winding the core and the coil of 16 transformers. I wasn't there when they were being 1 7 iwpregnat ed. 1 8 Q. Okay. What about, the transformer plant, 19 that General Electric had in Rome, Georgia? When 20 you were there, did you go into the area where 21 A. I wasn't in the plant there ever. 2 2 Q. Okay. So, you don't, know whether t. h e v were; 2 3 using them well or not? 2 4 A . No. T wasn't, in t h e plant there, no. 2 5 Q. Okay. What about the General Electric NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024590 J4 1 transformer plant i. n P i. t t s t! i e I d , Massachusetts; did 2 you go into -3 k. I was not In the; plant. 4 Q Okay . 5 A . No. I was in the office. 6 Q. What about the All is-Chalmers transformer 7 plant In Pittsburgh; did you go into the plant area? a A . No. I was not in the plant, no. 9 Q What about the Wagoner Electric plant in l 0 at. Loui a; were you in the plant area? l L A . I was in that plant area -1 2 0.. Did you observe them -l .3 A. - at on<i time. 1 4 Q. Did you observe them using PCB's? i a A. I think so, yes. This was many years ago; ] 6 b ut 1 would think so, that - - there were some 1 7 t ran st; or m era there in various stages, and I would i a think that, they were using PCH's at the Wagoner 19 plant. 2 0 Q. Did you observe anything about t.hc;ii use of 2 1 PCB's that gave you any concern? 2 2 A . No. N o, 1 didn't. 2 3 Q. What about the Maloney transformer plant in 24 St. Louis; did you go into the t. ran s former area? 2 5 A. No, r was never in that -- in that plant. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024591 I Q So - 2 A . I ' IB not. 8 u r e I Was a t their of f i re, even. 3 Q. Okay . So, the only t r a n s f o i: m e r p 1 ant you 4 can actually remember q o i n q t C) where you saw Pr B's 5 in use was the Wagoner plant In St. Louis? f. A. That they were actually in process of 7 tilling transformera - I'm trying to think. a Obviously t. he u c* other - - all of these other plants 9 used PCR'a and made transformers at one point or 1 0 another. They were filling transfornern with PCB's l 1 and 30 on and so forth. 1 2 Q. Hut you didn't observe them doing it? 13 A. L didn't observe that In the transformer 1 4 area. 3 have observed in the capacitor area where 15 they were impregnating capacitors. It was - in one 1 6 case it was .... l 7 Q. WhLeh plant was that? i a A. Well, Rlectric Utilities, I mentioned. 19 Q. Okay. We LI, that's what I am saying. 20 A. That was capacitors. 2 l Q. As E understand your testimony, you have 2 2 observed the use of P C H 1 a by a customer of Monsanto 2 3 on one occasion for sure: That's the capacitors at 2 4 Blertric 111 i 1 i t. i r s in I.aS a lie? 2.5 A. No. There's was more than one occasion for NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024592 .1 L` K-. t capacitors. 2 Q . What, o t. h e r s ? 3 A. W o 1 L , the Electric Utilities at L a 3 a l I. e , 4 That's one. b Q. You've told me about, that. one. 6 A. I've seen the - I was in the plant at G.E. 7 at Hudson Falls. 8 (). I thought, y u told me you didn't, actually 9 see them us ing the PCB's at that point. 1. 0 A. Well, T saw the PCH's standing there, in l l vats. 1 2. Q. Okay . 1 3 A . That's - - that's .... is that, using it? 1. 4 Q. Well, E guess that's what I'm trying to 1 b find out.. I mean .... l 6 A. I would say that that is material in one 1 7 s t.aqe or another of use. Ifl When -- when the impregnation goes on, 19 you see, this is under vacuum and pressure in a 2 0 closed reactor. 2 1 Q. Were you able to see the FCH's in these 2 2 open vats at Hudson Falls? 2 3 A. At. Hudson Pails? Yes. 2 4 Q . Okay. 7 b A. Just, as though it wa3 in this room here. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024593 O/ I It was a vat that: -- - we l l , m ay b o be from here to 2 almost that, wall 1 o ng a n d about this wide; and these 3 power capacito rs wiirii i n there. And this i s w li a t 4 was rolled, moved, into this cylindrical 5 i. m p r g a t i n g chamber. 6 Now, what 1 saw was the capacitors 7 a filer they had been impregnated and they had been 8 cooled down; and they were sitting t h e r e in these 9 vats, waiting to be soldered. 1 0 Q . Okay. Did you see any workmen actually l l work i. in; with them? 1 7 A. There were workers in the plant, yes. 1 3 Q. Actually working with the P C 8'3 in the 1 4 capacitors? 1 8 A. Not the - - the particular -- what, do you 16 want to call it? - - these tanks that L' saw. We just, 3 7 walked by them, and they were sitting in there. 18 Q. Okay. Anyplace else that you haven't told 19 me about where you've actually observed either 20 capacitor or transformer manufacturers working with 2 1 the PCB'a? 2 2 A. I'm trying to think. It's - it's been 23 yea r3 ago . 2 4 A. Where -- where could 1 have -- I'm thinking 2 6 now about transformers. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024594 -lor I I bftl ieva - no, no. I d i d n ' I; g e 2 thee working with it there. 3 I've h o fi n in the plant. Aga in , it wag 4 not operating; so, j didn't see them workinq with it. 5 at A r o v o x. T h at'a capacitors. 6 Q . R xi t. you didn't - 7 A. I've 3een their facilities, but it was not a in operation. They weren't working with it. 9 Q. So, you've told me, as Ear as you can i o recall, places where you've actually seen PCB's i i being used? 1 2 A. This is riqht. 1.3 Q. Okay. Did you ever visit - - 1 4 A. i don't mean to say that this is 15 everything. I've done my best to answer you. 16 Q. That's all I can ask. l 7 A. Yeah. j n Q. Did you ever visit the Monsanto plants 19 where PCB's wore actually produced? 2 0 A. Yes . 21 Q. Did you visit both the Anniston, Alabama, 2 2 plant - - 2 3 A . Yes, both. 2 4 Q . -- and t:he 2 5 A. I've been in both plants. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024595 - ' 7 1 Q . - - .1 n d tho Knunarir.h p L ,i n t ? 2 A . Correct. 3 Q. Tell me what, you observed about. Monsanto's 4 l?C B production Ln the Krummrich plant? b A. I'm going back years ago, and I'm going to 6 make a general observation. tears ago chemical 7 plants were not. as clean as they are today. 1 think 8 we all know this. 9 The Arcelor plant at Krummrich was l 0 outdoors. I was aware Aroclor was being made. 1 1 There were tanks and 9tills there that were at l 7. hi g her temperatures. The equipment and the 1 3 chlorinators, e t. cetera, were - were not cool and 14 idle. They were in operation. Even though this was 1 !:> out. of doors, I was aware I was around the odor of I 6 A roc lor. ) 7 1 will say this: 3 was there in more 1.8 recent years, probably a round 1968. And by that 19 time, things had improved by way of cleanliness. 3 2 0 think that's a general observation. 2 1 Q. When were you first there, the first time 2 2 you were describing for me, about what period of 2 3 t. i me? 2 4 A. I would probably put this sometime in the 2`i l 9h 0 ' s . In the l 95 0 ' s , sometime around there*. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024596 j > u I RfiiMiise I would qo ho the Laboratory at t h e 2 Krunrich plant; arid there 1 a where I saw A rod or 3 used, tested, and so on and so (ior th . In the 4 laboratories, yes. b Q Hid you also q o out. into the pi a n t area 6 where it was b e i n q manutiicturod? 7 A. 3 said, yes, 1 was out there. 8 Q. Okay. Did you observe any special 9 precautions taken by the workmen to avoid contact l 0 with Aroclors or any precautions taken by Monsanto 1 1 to keep the workmen from coming into contact with 1 2 A r o c lots? 1 3 A. T did not. I observed hard hats. I wore a 1 4 hard hat. I observed gloves being worn as one would 1 h wear going .... wear climbing onto a tank car or ~~ or 16 going up iron stairs, et cetera, and an iron 1 7 rail.inq, and maybe rolling some drums. 18 These gloves were not there for the 19 purpose of covering the hand akin from the A roc lor. 20 Neither did E have anything. E had goggles was - 21 this was standard practice. You qo into a plant, 2 2 they give you protective goggles; yes, E had this. 2 3 And these are safety goggles, for instance, or 24 glasses. That was a requirement when you went into 2li a chemical plant.. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024597 1 At one point In time, whether you wont 2 to the PCB area or not., they would give you a smock 3 to wear; but you had that whether you went to 4 Aroc 1 or or not. 5 Q . Anything oI 3 e ? f A. They wear safety shoes, but not because of 7 the PCB. They didn't want any heavy thing to break a their toes. 9 Q. Talking about steel-toed shoes? 1 0 A. Steel-toed 3hoes, yea. 11 Q. Anything else? l 2 A . No . I 'd a ay that's it. 1 3 Q. Did you see any changes between the way the l 4 workmen were exposed or not exposed to PCB's when 1 b you went back t. o the Krumutich plant in the late 16 6 0 ' s , other than the fact it was cleaner and you 1 7 couldn't smell it? 1 fl A. No, 1 covi Id n't see any difference in their 19 attire, no. 20 Q. What about, the Anniston, Alabama, plant.; 21 whan did you visit that plant? 2 2 A . I visited Anniston, Alabama - - 1 would say 23 the first time was in 19 - - maybe '48 or '47, 24 something like this. 2 <5 Q. And what did you observe there about NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024598 .i ^ 1 precautions provided by Monsanto for the workmen? 2 A . Essentially the: s a nit: as I -just, said for l h e 3 Kruaarich plant. 4 0. You didn't notice any <5 A. There .ire no special protective - - they 6 didn't, wear aprons and --- and protective garments . 7 They were attired in their khaki. Some even wore - B the supervisor, he wore a white shirt - - I don't 9 know why --- and khaki pants. He didn't -- at times, 1 0 didn't wear a hard hat, either'. l 1 Q. Were there special uniforms that Monsanto 1 2 required all its people to wear? You were supposed 13 to wear a khaki - 1 4 A. Yes. i 5 Q. uniform to work? 16 A. Yes. This is a thing that, whether you l 7 were in the laboratories or in the plant, you had 1 8 these uniforms to wear'. It was no longer that you 19 came there in your street clothes. You wore those 2 0 uniforms; and they were laundered by the company 2 l and/or furnished and Laundered by the company and 2? were changed once a week or twice a week, whatever. 2 3 If n(ided, if there was a spill, they would be 2 4 changed a 1. that time. 2 8 Q. Okay. So, the workmen had special clothes NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024599 * .) 1 when they came to work to change into? 2 A. Yes. They - they didn't, work in their 3 street clothes. Let me say. Those days were over 4 with, yes. 6 0. . Okay. Any other precautions that were 6 taken with regard to exposure to PCR's? 7 A. Not that. 1 know of, no, uh-uh. 8 Q. The company Laundered these clothes Lor the 9 workmen? l 0 A. Yes. 1 1 Q. You can't think of any other precautions l 2 that you observed being taken by Monsanto to protect 1 3 its workmen from exposure to PCB's ? t 4 A . No. I never saw anybody wear a mask or 3 o 1 F. f or t.h . } 6 Q . 1 want t. o focun your attention now on the l 7 matters that took place after t ho problems o E P C R's 18 came to light in the 1 960'n. Do you know what 19 I'm - 2 0 A. In other words, you're after, certainly, 21 post 1960; you're up to 1968, would you say? 2? Q. Yes. In the period of time where 2 8 A. All right. I'm with you. 2.4 Q. - where there comes a -2 8 A. Kn v i ro n me n ta I. concern. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024600 _> -> * I Q. 703. 2 A . Ye* . All right.. 3 Q. Now, YotJ were Involved in some of; the 4 response* that Monsanto made to these concerns, were 5 y ou not? 6 A. To what concerns? 7 Q. The environmental concerns, the concerns a about the potential hazards of PCH's. 9 A. I responded to who? r was -] 0 Q. You were involved in some of the response 1 1 that Monsanto made to those concerns. 1 ? A. To the environmental people? I 3 Q . Yes, the c o ne e r n s - ] 4 A. No. No, I wasn't. l 5 t wa3 aware of what was going on; but ] 6 I don't recall responding, in any significant, way, 1 7 direct L y to the environmental people. No, [ don't i a remember that. 1 9 Q. No. I'm sorry . That isn't, what 1 meant, to 20 aslc. 2 1 You were involved in a part, of the 2 2 responso that Monsanto made to those problems and 23 concerns, weren't, you? 24 A. Actually, I wasn't. 2 b Now, 1 want, you to consider something NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024601 i >1j I ho re. r retired in 19/4. Now, you retire at 6C5. 7. In companies, they tend to put you on the shelf, may .3 I say, certainly five years prior to retirement, 4 maybe earlier than that. Now, by and large, what 5 You're going to run into in this period of time, r f. was if You'll allow me to say it 5 ri quotes on 7 the shelf. B 1 was not. in the directive line. This 9 does not mean that T did not know. in general, what 1 0 was going on ; that. I d i d not. maybe talk to someone l 1. about th i :? . But when things were handled -- and 12 you'r e up t. O 19 -- would y o u want to go to '70? 13 Q We 1 l , you tell me. 1 4 A Let. ' s go to J970. l r> MR. CRAWFORD: Well, Mr. Henignus , 1 6 he's got. a document there that I'm n u r e - - \ 7 THK WETNESS: I k n o w It e has. 3 a MR. CRAWFORD: Well, why don't you let 19 him ask you about it; and then we' 1.1 move on a 70 little faster here? 7.1 THK WITNESS: X still haven't gotten 2 2 to 3ay what wanted to explain. 73 Q . (H y Mr. I.acey) Well, why don't you go 3 4 ahead and explain what you want to explain? 2 b A . Y o vi know Hill 1'appaqeorqe? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024602 -.> f, 1 Q I think you askfid me yesterday. [ ' v o h(ard 2 the naid, but. I've not. met. the man. 3 A . Oh, I didn't know this. 4 Q. Yeah . 5 A . I didn't know this. 6 Q I've not yet met. the man. 7 A . He was called to handLe these things -9 Q And ..... 9 A . -- specifically. And lie did. 10 Q When he came in, you, as you say, got put 1 l on the shelf? J 2 A . No, 1 don't nay because Pappageorge 1 3 arrived. I'm trying to tell you that I was on the 14 shelf somewhat. 1 already told you that. I spent a 15 lot of my time traveling ex-U.S. and this sort of 1 6 thing. 1 7 May I see the document? 18 Q. Surely. I've got a document here. tt'3 19 numbered 508 through 511. And it's a letter that 20 appears to be dated August 6, 1970, on Monsanto 2 1 Company letterhead - 2 2 A . fJh huh. 2 3 Q - and signed by you. For some reason, I 2 4 don't have; any a d d r e a s e e o n the Letter. I don't 2 5 know who it. was sent to. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024603 t A . 0Ohh,, thh aa t helps. 2 Q- Yeah, that is a bjg help, isn't it? 1 A . Well ~~ 4 Q. Did you normally, when you had letters *5 typed up, .show on there who you sent it to? 6 A . This one went to you right now. And we're 7 talk i ng about what we talked the other day, 1016. 8 This, 3 think, was left open so that. 9 people ' 3 names would be stamped on because this 1 0 thing received wide circulation -t l Q (Jh - huh . 1 2. A . .... e x 11 . S . - I mean ex-Monaanto. I 1 Q Okay . 1 4 A . This went, as an information piece to our l <5 A r o o Lor 1242 customers. It compares 1016 with 1 6 A r a dor 1242 ~l 7 Q. Now - -18 A . - which was an assignment 1 had. 19 Q. Okay . 20 THE WITNESS: And what's t.he date of 21 that? 22 MR. CRAWFORD: August 6th, 1970. 2 1 A . ALL right. That is approximately when 2 4 Arodo r 10)6, 1 think we will find, was being 2 5 introduced, 1970 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024604 1 Q< (Hy Mr. Lacey) And you were involved in 2 that, were you not? 3 A . Yes, J was. T was th e one T ea I 1y Involved 4 in covering this with our capacitor customers. 5 Q. You were involved in trying to get them to 6 take on that product? 7 A. T was - yes. 1 was -- my duty was to show 9 them the d it: If ere nee in it and that we say there is 9 essentially no difference; that if you people are l (3 willing to accept this, it's a step in the right 1 1 direction to help satisfy the environmentalists; if l 2 you ' re w i. LLing to accept this, Monsanto is willing 13 to make it and supply it in replacement for 1242 if l 4 you so approve of it. This is what it was. 1 b 1 was giving t.hem specifically - 16 there's a specification, isn't there, a comparison 1 7 of those specifications? 18 Q. Yes. There's attached a specification 19 for -2 0 A. 10 16? 21 Q. - 1016 and for 124 2 2 A. 1 2 4 2. 2 3 Q . .... 1 2 4 2. 2 4 A . This is exactly what, this thing is, yes. 2 8 Q. Now, I've got another -- what appears to be NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024605 I another copy of that letter -- and I want you to 2 compare it and let me know it it is .... Document 3 15504 through 15508, that apparently Indicates a 4 copy of that letter was sent to Mr. Robert. e. Abbe, 5 A fi R I-: . f. A . "Abbe" at G.K. 7 Q. "Abbe"? With G.E.? a A. All riqht. It says here, "You requested 9 this amount, and the" -- "the samples are being sent 1 0 to you." 11 And Dr. Munch had analyzed -- or had L 2 tried this in our laboratory with experimental 13 capacitors and found them satisfactory. 1 4 Q. Okay. Dr. Munch was a scientist there that lb was 1 6 A . Yeah . 1 7 Q He was developing different dielectric 13 fluids in response to 19 A . Yea, he was. And this was one 20 Q. This was not the only dielectric fluid? 2 1 A . Oh, no. We were trying additional things 2 2 to this . This is t he same thing here. 2 3 Q Yeah. Appears to be the same letter, does 24 it not? 2 b A. This is exactly the same thing, yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024606 1. Q Now, let in e show you 2 A . And this is - see, it. h a 3 Abbe at G . F. . , 3 w h L c h would have been the Lanjns t user. 4 If they weren't going t o use i t. , t h e 5 thing wouldn't go at all. They did use it and we is went to that, b u t it didn't, satisfy the 1 environmental Ists. 8 Q. Okay. I.et me show you another letter, 9 Document 812 through 516, dated February 18th, 1971, 1 0 and signed by you. .13 that, another one of your l l L e t t e r s involving this 1016 -\ 2 A . v e n, it is. 1 3 Q - problem ? 1 4 A . Yes, it is. 1 5 Now, this gives more information. Our l 6 laboratory now, in '71, has completed life tests 1 7 It t a k e s time, you know. T hia is our additional 18 Information. And, yes, this is a l l of this, the 19 results of life tests - 20 Q. Okay . 2 1 A . -- giving these people the benefit, of what. 2 2 we have observed. 2 3 Q And t. hen 1 have what I believe is another 2 4 copy of that letter. Document 15696 through 1570L, 2 5 indicating a copy of that letter was sent to General NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024607 \ I K l metric at Muds on Fa L 13, New York. 2 A. That'a Abbe again. .3 Q. Okay. Well, l don't see his name on that. 4 Would the Hudson Kails, New York, be Mr. Abbe? A. Well, it means that Location, yes, Abbe 6 was the --- Abbe was the direct --- the director of 7 materials. He would bo the one we would contact. 8 Q. On the second page of that letter, .if you 9 would turn - 1 0 A. This one? 1 1 Q . Yes, that letter. 1 2 in the. fourth paragraph froa the end, 13 you say, "We have au extensive research program on 1 4 materials for use in capacitor dielectric systems." 15 Do you see that - 1 f> A. Where do I see that? On the second page? 17 Q. Yes. Right there. 1 8 A. Oh. "We would be most, pleased to have you l 9 visit" -- no. 20 Q . No . 21 A. Oh, all right. I'm sorry. 2 2 "Be have an extensive research program 2 3 on materials for use in capacitors die" yes. 7 4 We -- at thi3 point in time Munch had set up a 21> laboratory facility to impregnate and life test NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024608 40/ t experimental possible replacements for PCD'a , \nd 2 this w a a one of t. h c in . 3 Q, When - now, this actually was a PCR 4 product, though, wasn't it? 5 A. Oh, yea. This La a PCB, and this La why it 6 didn't, fly. To 7 Q . When -- 0 A . Go ahead. 9 Q. When did Dr. Munch first develop a non-PCB l 0 replacement fluid for capacitors? 1 1 A . I don't, know exactly when; but it ia in l 2 this time frame when wo are looking for 1 3 replacements, whether M-16 or something else. l 4 Q. Did Monsanto seek to acquire patents on any i ?> of the replacement fluids developed by Dr. Munch? lb A. Yes. On -- - on one, yes. 1 7 Q . And that, was one that, you thought, had great IH promise? 19 A. I didn't. 2 0 Q. You d L d n ' t ? 21 A . Ho . 2 7 Q Wei 1 , why go to the effort, of seeking a 2 3 patent o n it. then ? 2 4 A . Wei 1 , don ' t. ask me. 25 Q . Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024609 1 < 1 A . I don' t mean to be - - idkay . 2 Q. Did Dr . Munch think it. had some p r o hi i 3 A. Why don't you ask him? 4 Q- Okay You don't know anything about 5 A . 5 u r e / I k n ow about it. 6 Q Wei .1 t tell in e what, you know about, it.. 7 A . We L 1. / you asked for one with a patent a i c a t. ion; fl o , we'll talk about t.hat one. 9 This was a hydrocarbon base. Now, 1 0 early on, if 1 can remember, yesterday we talked l l about dielectric constant, minoral oil, 2. This la 1 7 2. And we also saw PCB at 5. t 3 Now, wo have a hydrocarbon base that ] 4 does not. give the capacitance for the kind of 15 capacitors that we're going to have to make, which 16 are motor -runs and ballast. l 7 Now, one way of increasing capacitance 18 is to add what Munch has patented. You can read in 19 the literature. It'a a diphenyl sulfone, which has 2 0 a high dielectric constant. 2 1 N ow, there's two things about this. 22 It's going to cost more than PCH. It is q oin q to be 23 a Io s s y-ty p e fluid. 2 4 Q . A what? 2 5 A. bossy, L 0 - - it's going to have dielectric NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024610 4u* I Losses higher - 2 Q. Okay. 3 A . -- - than one wants to deal with. 4 Now, this was submitted to the General b Electric Company and other people. And the response 6 was along this lino -- you are aware nothing is 7 going to fly in this business unless C> . K. adopts 8 it. Wo can assume this. 9 Their reaction to this was: "We have l 0 enough trouble with lossy d i e L e c t r i <: s that we are 1 J already trying to find as replacement for PCB, and l 2 wo object to this for that reason.'* They were not 1 3 interested. it did not go c o m m e r cia 1 . l 4 Now - 1 8 Q. Could it have been used as an alternative 1 fi capacitor fluid In capacitors that were then being 3 7 filled with PCR'a ? IB A. Could it have been? 19 Q. Yes . 2 0 A. Dr. Munch, in his laboratory, made 2 l capacitors that he thought were all right. 22 Q. They worked? 21 A, It could -- they worked, granted. 2 4 0 . The problem was that you couldn't get. G . E . 2 8 to buy NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024611 4u - I A . TO U3R L t . 2 Q. - to buy thin fluid instead of FCB'n? 3 A . Yea. Or Instead o t: other t h L n g 3 , what 4 they're using now. b Q Were you ever involved in any discussions 6 about simply ceasing to sell P C n ' 3 ho that G . . 7 would use other fluids?1 8 A . Not in those terms, no, it I unders ta nd 9 you said. I'm not sure I did. l 0 Q. Well, let me make It - 1 1 A . Let's explore! what you want. l 2 Q Let me make it clear. ) 3 A . Yes. l 4 Q Sure l y i G . K., as I understand what, you ' re l 6 i ng me, baa LcalLy said, "I'd rather buy your 1 7 s than this alternative that. Dr. Munch has come 18 L th . 19 A . No, 1 ' m not. saying that, a 1. all. 2 0 Q. Okay . 21 A . What 1 said -- and their laboratory e s were 2 2 closed doors at this point in time. They said, "We 2 3 all" - "are already work i rig with 1 ossey dielectrics 2 4 as a possible rep l achien t . " 2b 1 know what they had in mind. They NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024612 4 0f, I had In mind p h t h a l a K e e a t n r , 3 poc i. C ic.i l ly d L o c t y l 2 phthalate, which they were working on. And they .3 began the life teat in 1972. 4 And J guess we're in that, framework of 5 time, ho mowho re around there. 6 Now, they had come to Monsanto and 7 asked Monsanto to supply dioctyl phthalate. Prior a to that and along at this point in time, Monsanto 9 had sampled G . fi . with SantisLzer 711. Now, to make 1 0 this s i in p .1 e , !ant.i s j zer 711 is a phthalate ester l 1 just l ike OOP is a phthalate os ter. J 2 You don't want, the whole explanation, 1.3 is that why you're s m i. Ling? 1 4 Q No . Go ahead. i a A . don ' t know what to say. 1 6 Q. No . No . Just go ahead. You're -- you're l 7 explaining. Go ahead and finish explaining. i a A . Well, do you want the explanation? 19 Q- Yea . Absolutely. 20 A . Real 1y ? 2 i Q. Yes . 2 7 A . f thought you were - started smiling ?.l Q No . 2 4 A . If you're sincere, 3' 11 take the time 25 Q Go ahead a mi explain i t . NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024613 i a / I A . All rL gh t . Monsanto had Sant is izcr 711, 2. and that's a plitha'l ate ester with a - one chain of 3 seven carbons and another chain of; 11 carbons. 4 Di octyl phthai ate has one chain of eight, carbons and 5 another chain of eight carbons. Both arc phthaiate 6 esters. You can't they're like two peas in a 7 pod . 8 He offered Santisizer 711 t. o CJ . K . , 9 which we made. We weren't making OOP. Later they 1 0 would ask us t. o do so. We didn't. 1 l But they did not accept Monsanto's 1 7 711. The re: a son: Tt was a tick worse on dielectric l 2 constant, not a great thing. Tt cost more. And 14 that is important. 1 8 The other thing is they knew they 16 could get DOP on - - on the market, like a commodity, 1 7 rock and gravel. And this is what t.h:y were looking 18 for. Both products had the same limitations of 1 9 being an eater, subject to hydrolysis and 2 0 oxidation. So, why should they go with what 2 1 Monsanto offered? 2 2 They were looking at. DOP, and this was 2 2 in this time frame. 2 4 Q . you were offering t. h e m alternatives in the 2 8 19/1 time Cr.mo? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024614 i.; a 1 A . To PCfl, y e a. And th L a isn't the only 2 alternative that was offered. Another alternative 3 was another hydrocarbon, which was Later adopted, 4 that type thing, b y Bestinghouse, which they had 5 researched probably prior to this time w<> had 6 sampled. 7 You can say, "Well, why didn't they 8 adopt that?" Well, ours -~ I'm talking about 9 isopropyl biphenyl -- ours was more expensive than l 0 they felt their economics - they adopted 1. ] eventually - ray understanding, they now use 12 something coming from this area, a hydrocarbon, 1 3 quote, "isopropyl biphenyl." They call it that. 14 It's an off-stream from a petroleum hydrocarbon. 1b And the point to all of this is and 16 T want to make it the time that PC8 manufacture 1 7 terminated was the exact time when CJ.fi. went, to l 8 market with dioctyl phthalate. Monsanto always said ] 9 as soon as anyone - we, anyone -- on the. outside 20 has a substitute, out.; because the company was 2 1 ordered to shut. down. The only reason they were 2 2 making it was because of the insistence and the plea 2 3 of the electrical industry and the KPA. 2 4 Q. When -- when had Monsanto decided that it 2S would stop producing pen's as soon as t. here was an NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024615 lui 1 .i l tornat L ve? 2 A. As soon as there was an alter native and 3 G.B. 3 topped buy inij PCB, that was the end of it. 4 Q. Well, let me let me separate those two '5 apart for just a aRcoitd. 6 Are you telling me t ha t. by 1970 7 Monsanto was commit ted to stop selling PCB'3 as soon 8 an there was an alternative product for use in 9 capacitors and transformers? 1 0 MR. CRAWFORD: If you know. 1 l A. Et -- 1 2 THK WITNRSS: 1 do know. 1 9 A . You've asked the question. To my 1 4 knowledge, this is It: The very top of Monsanto - 15 and this is in response to the YUS HO thing. 1 6 0. (By Mr. Lacey) YllSHO, you're talking about I. 7 the Japanese -- ] 0 A . Yes . 19 Q. -- incident? 2 0 A. When they shvit down in Japan, that meant 7. I our plant shuts down in Japan, t.do, not only the 2 2 Japanese. 29 Q . When did that, happen? 2 4 A . 1.1 it was around 1968 or a o m e w h e v e in 2 5 t. hat period. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024616 I Q- 8o, Mon3.iiito I'C R plant in Jap,in was shut 2 down in the lair S i x t e s V 1 A. Oh, yen. 4 Q Okay. {i A . I W Cl u l d ;3 ,1 y 3 CJ , fi 0 . Ok ,1V . 7 A. It never really not. doing, because 1 was 8 sent over the re to try to market and had no success . 9 Q A n d. s h o i t. .1 y after that., the J a p a n e tt e - l 0 A . Th e y had n o t; i ine for the J a p a t o life test J 1 an d all t ha t. . And s h or t 1 y after it, h O O HI , the l 7. e in p e r o r y o a know, they s h a t d o w n 1: heir own placs, ] ;i l. h e y ' r e q o i n g t. o r: h u 1. n . T ti e r e 1 ft n o p o i nt. in our 1 4 trying to tight the emperor of Japan. 1 S () . okay. 1 6 A. Now, let'* get. bark here. The Yli? HO thing 1 7 is the thing of very piono u n c e d inf I. u e n r. n o n P C 8 . 18 T 1 hi not. saying it. was fully u n derstood . It was a 19 markt'd inElunnce . 7 0 'I1 he directive, as l understand this 7 t Paul Rent gnus speak ing we are making something 7 7 t. h a t 1 :: n o t. w a n led . 8 i in p .1 e t. o u n d e r s t. and V 7.1 Q . Y c; s . 7 4 A . Get o u 1. . 7 S Now, Monsanto proceeds to d o t hi s . .1 t NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024617 I w a s n ' t d i f f i >; u 1 t i n t. h e n one 1 e c t r i r. a l bee a a so th ere 7. were substit. ul (' r, - o J s u li s 1 A t u t ea c o u J d e a s i J v be provided. 4 r n t h c; o .1 e e t. r i cal i n d u a try and t h e U r e a son i: 'm t e l 1 L n q y o u t h l s - I q o t a p h o ne cal l Y> from 0,, K. "Do n o 1. 1 e t. Mon s Fan to take p r e c i p A t o u a 7 action t o s h u t U 3 down as In 3 b ee n a l ready done L n R n o n e ] e c t :r i c a .1 . " 9 My renponKe to 1 h j ft i h : "I know what l 0 Lt moans. You don't have to tell me that Lt runs 1 1 t h t'. r j ft k j f you can't, net PCD ' :? for capacitors 1 7. and trunsfonnui's , you're qoinq to say It's go inq to 1 '1 run tfie risk of shnMinq down power ftupp] j cut , " And 1 4 r believe i. t won Id have. If. would have b n e n a v o r y 1 S s e r i oils t. h j n q t. o d o . 1 H They d i. d not have a fire resistant 1 l i f'p.l ticenent. , We know t. h i ft . We're t.alkinq he; re 1 R a bout efforts to find r e p L a e omenta , Non e o f t h e a <; l 9 were fire resist, ant. Now - 2 0 Q. The replacements they ultimately used 7 1 weren ' t fire res i s t.airt , either, were they? 7.2 A . That's true, too. 7 u Q. Okay. G o a head . 2 4 A. . Now, they pleaded, "Don't shut down. Don't 7 L> s h u t. us off. " NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024618 I F said, "Yon 're ialkinq ho the wromj 7 q u y . You better q o t y o u v very t o p p e o p 1 e and com o 1 Into S t , f, o u i s and h a l i< h o I: h e v e r y h o p p o o p l n n t 4 Mo n a a ti t.o . " S This a o t v> a I 1 y hap p e n e d , Th i , they n did. 7 Q . Who did they talk t. o V U A . T h ft y ' r <3 n o t speaki mj only h o v t h o in s o 1 v e s . ' i e n peakinq for t h c i nd u s t. r y . A iid because of i n h. his, and the 0 o v e r n m e n t , also - r ' m a a y i. n g the i i KFA -- it's my urniern I nml i nc] that. t. h e HP A also said, i ,? "hook, it this moans shut down power supply in this 1 '3 country, you're q o i mj t.o have 1 o find some way to l 4 p r c o e d w i. t.liout d o i n q t. h a h . " 1 h T h o ri c o in o s this si t. nation: A q rfemen l I 6 by ail cono ornod to proceed on the promise that ) 7 c a p a o 1 tors and transf oi in e r s a r e ti e rmet i c a J 1 y t 8 sealed. And they c o n t i n u ft d t. o s u p p L y, pond i nq a 1 9 rep3 acenent. V0 Now, M o n :i a ri t o had t. lies o t. h i n q s Thc 2X were other t h i n qa. Non o o f t n o in f 1 o w f ft r u s A nd 2 2 a s I say, w h e n t h c n h u t. (1 o w n T' i :i\ 1 1 y o i in e w a r who: n 2< ft, . K . a n n o u n c od a nd d i ri (/ o t. o in a r k o 1. w i I. h 0 0 P And 2. 4 1 ha t ' H t h o e n rt of i t and the a li m w o r to i t . 7. 8 Q . Ok a y. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024619 I A . Thai: ' s h h e s e q u e n o o o f: i h. . 2 Q So, w h e rt (' K s a .id, "We're no 1 on q (' J- q o i [K| 3 to n ft ft d -- - n fi (! d OCR's, w e no L o n g o r 4 A . That, w a n the end of it.. 5 Q - " w a n L 1. o buy them," then Mon s a n l. o s .1 i i , fi We're g o i n q t. o 3i nt d o w n p r oduct. .i o n IT y V A . That'S my niutcifstamilntj of: i t . 3 Q Okay . And the very produr t. r? that were: u?.:oct 9 in fi.ypaci tors and transfiu'sers in lieu o t! PCR's wort* 3 0 a J rfiddy available i n 3 9 7 0 , weren't, t. h e y 7 1 1 A . Yes, 1. h e y w n r o . 1 3 R Okay l 3 A . Yes, t h o y w o r e . 1 4 Q A ti d had Monsanto stopped in a k i ng PfH ' s i n lb 19/0, th e t r a n s f o r m e r and o .1 p a c i t. 0 r p e oplfi wo u Ld 3 h have, gone t. o t h e. very p r 0 d u c t. s t. h e y 0 v e n t. u a 1 1 y d i l 7 go to i. n Lieu 0 1: P C R ' s ? 1 0 A . T h i r. i s n't. exactly r i cj h t. . N 0 , I d 0 n ' t. l 9 agree with th i s . 2 0 Q. Wha t would t hey have none t. 0 ? 2 l A . They - - wpi I. , all. r i g h t . You're thinking 2 3 this t h r o ugh f oi y o ii r c ) f , a n d I d o n ' I. mean to g e t 2 3 i n t o \ dfiba t e o n t. h i a s u 3) i o c I. . 2 4 Q T i u s t want. t O k now y 0 u r t . tin t i 111 O Ti V . 2 9 A . r a. g r on OOP w a :j aval L a b t e., C a g r e e t h a NELL NIC CALLUNI & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024620 4 .4 l L uupfopy l biphenyl, was -jv4 i I dl) li> . I di 3 a g c o e w L I. h ?. your thinking - because Iherr is a big void \ n what, .3 you are 3 ay in <7 because these th i ikjs were not tested 4 and probed and proved nut -- l.hu t. i t won id be b foaa ibl.fi, sat e t o <70 to market with DOB. 6 If you think it was an easy thinq to 7 determine this, I assure you it was not. And after B DO - G.K. did qo to market, with OOP and Monsanto 9 -s h u t o f f! - - did stop producing PCfl, I c .1 n assure you 1 0 there were some companion fiat on their face because 11 h h 0y were n 0 t a b l e - t h < '. y n 0 longer had the PC B . 12 They ha d n01.h i rig . And that was a very diffi Clllt 1 3 s i tiu t i on . We -- we w e r 0 r. a 1. 1. 0 d things that wornn't 1 4 t. 00 ri ,i c e . 1 S Q I see. 1 r? n 1 t. it a fact t. h a t. the d to c. i s i 0 n l ft of Monsanto to keep manuhi c t. u r i n BCR's a 1: t e r It h a d 1 7 a .1 t. e r n a t. i v e p r 0 d u c t. s and other's had alternat i v e 1. H p rodue t S available w a s influenced by the fac t. t h ri t 1 9 Monsanto made a Jot 0 f money s c 1 1 i n q P C13 ' s ? 2 0 A . No, it was n 0 l . N 0 , s i. r . 2 i Q. Had n 01. h ,i n q t 0 rt 0 wit. h i t. ? d 2 A . N 0 , a i c , it h a d no th 1 ng to do with i. I; . y t Q Okay . 2.4 A . No, si r . i t d i d not. ^ s 0 - I. e t m e a s k y 0 u about your work with t. h e NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024621 i I A inn r i. ca n Na t. L o na l ha n<1 a rd a Lust i h u t;o C om in i h. t e i; 2 C-1 07 . .1 A . Vps . Thin now, you're up I. o I 9 7 (I . 4 W <2 L l , that was published in '72 or '71, r l\ <; r o b wa n f, MR. CRAWFORD: Let .... ] c-1. him a ?-k you 7 a ipioa t i. on so wo can ... B THE W IT N K B B: 1 t houghl he did. 9 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, he's (jot a 1 0 document, there that he'll probably want to ask you l l a bo u t . 1 2 () . (Hy Mr. Lacey) You were the chairman of 1 .1 t h e s h e e r i n ij c o m m i t toe o n I: he - 1 4 A. Thin .in what. I wan qoinq to nay. 1 b Q. Okay. Tell me about that. 16 THE WITNESS: Now I now should 1 l / pro o o o d ? ]a MK . CKAWKOKD: Well, yen. 19 Q. (Ry Mr. r.acey) Yes. 20 A. I hate to take the time. We're qoinq l. o 2 l have to <jo soon. 22 MB. OLESEN: That's the. problem. 2:) There's a half hour. We don't know how much more 2 4 vou w>ant. him to do and - - 2 b MR. LACEY: Well, l don't, know if NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024622 11* 1 we ' re ijo i ntj to make i t or not . ALL wk imii do i. ;j r 2 can ask the. question:: and he can answer them and 3 we'll aee If: we (jot through i.l: alt. [ don't know 4 what, to do. b M K . CWAWKOKI) : Okay. Let's qo. 6 MR. f. ACKY : I'm askimj them. 7 A. f was ejected to be chairman. Now, as .1 8 a L ready told you, I was on tin: shelf: at this time. 9 Q . (By Mr. I.acey) Okay. I 0 A , M x; e p t I did know people. The transformer 1 3 makers and the capacitor makers, J knew those people 1 2 t h r o u <7 h I. h e y o a r s . 3 3 0 WW eerree you an influential person with those l 4 poo p 1 e? 1 b A . They d i d n 1 h Q Okay . Wh 1 7 A . 'It'hheey knew me. Ami I was used to organize t 8 I. h i 3 th i n (j . A l 8 a 3 9 bac k 3nq , t.he f imds 2 0 who to invite . I 2 1 list o f p e o p 1 v. who 2 2 was v e r y broad rep 2 3 0 . NNooww,, Mr . Salazar was with the National 2 4 K l e c t r l c a t Man u I: a c I; u r e r 3 A a s o <: i. a f. 1 o n , c o r r e c t ? 2b A , But. he was a 1 s o secret, ary of he was also NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024623 I with AN 5 t . 2 Q . Okay. 3 A . On t. It 3 :.i .... .i n ( It i n a r ea a nd i n some in 4 some o t h v antas . s 0 . Now, l. h c Ntit i o n a I K ] e r t r 1 r a 1 M a n u f a c t u r e r s f> Assoc i a I-, i on i s a trade organization of. people; i i tc tt, 7 W e s 13 nqhouse a n tl G e n rral Klecir i c a n d A 1 .1 i c halm e / s H .and Maloney a n it others ? 9 A. Yen. Whereas ANSI is really - - represents 1. 0 Government, organizations, and everybody, the l*'DA 1 1 and t he Rut can standards and t he Hl-'A and the l 2 the -- everybody - 1 3 0. Okay. 1 4 A . - 1 ti d u s t. ry , i n s ti t u t 3 o n a 3 s , u n i y f r s i t. i e s , l b and so on ami so Perth, Yes,, this is eorroct. 1n Q Now , the - t h i h s t e e r i n q c. ouiin i t tee for t h v t 7 c 1 n 1 q r o up, you a <: L u a 1 L y r. h a i. r e d t h a t 1 B 1 i t t. re, d 3 d n ' t y o u ? 19 A . This is w h a t. V o u're re ad i i"); do, yes . 2 0 Q T me a n , i r: t ha t a c c u r a t. e ? 2X A. Th o y c a 1. 1 e rt m e - - oh. n o . i w a s r. h a i r ;n a n 2 2 . h e 1 e e r i n q c o in in ,i 1.1. e C` , 2 1 Q - Yes. 2 4 A . K x c u 3 V. HI c . Y (' 3 . T h a t , V e s . 2 r; Q . A n d what d L d t h a t invo 1 v e 7 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024624 I A . \ :} f. a I. c e a d y a a L d , is i:h,u r ma n o f t. h e 2 steering comm i t t eo , t partici pa t ed there in go. t1 i nq 3 this thing organized anil getting it together- u n 4 behalf of A1 Salaxar, to get. this thing pci nq . 5 Q. Now, the irt.ij,) l chairman of the committee ft an it. f i n a 1 won n d u \ > - 7 A . R i g h I;. . 8 Q wan Mr, i\.\ppagcorqe , wasn't .it. ? 9 A . Tou're ri ght. J 0 Q a o ..... l l A . No t me . 1 7 Q . So, a Merman to man c. h a i r e d both the I. 3 a t o e r i n g c o m m i the o 1 4 A . Y o u a j: e right. 1 ri Q . - - a nd t h e c on* L t t.eo ? 1 ft A . H u t the guy okay . Le t ' s? let t. h c1 7 to t h o - - you ' re r Lgh t. 1 8 Q What? 1 9 A . You're right, but I told y o u t. h a t l 20 t h a h e l f and Rappa goorgo wa 15 p u t in there a 71 chairman. He didn't d o L h e a c t. i v e work, I a 22 you . 2 3 Q Who did t h e a r t. i v e work? 2 4 A . Well, the com pos i t i o n o t t h e s e a i' e ?S in in t. h o ae b r ochuj'cs the r e . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024625 1 Tin? f n w.ia .1 sopar-itfi group for 2 capacitors . Why? Because* they wt:rr capacitor 1 people and knew what t; h n y could do in the capacitor 4 area . f> There was a 3 r para to section. They 6 won; t r a n s f o r in e r people they knew. We didn't have 7 carpenters or br.i ck Jayera or so forth. We asked the B i! P A and people Like that to participate. They 9 didn't know what to do but. they were invited and 1 0 t h e y a t t o n d e d m o e t. L ikjs , y e 3 . 1 ] Q. Now, you and Mr. Pappageorge were on both 1 2 the t r a n .3 f o r m e r committee and the capacitor ] b c. 11 m in i 11. e e , w e r e n ' t you ? 1 4 A. Oh, as - as e x o f f i. c i o , Is it, there, 1 B you ' r e r .i g t> t . 1 b Q. What does "exof ficio" mean? I7 Ai . u don ' t know. [ don't know 1 fl Q . Di d - d i d y o u get t. o p a r t. i c i pat. ci l 9 meet i n g a ? 2 0 A . T walked a r o u n d whi ] c t ti e s e guys 2. I working. 2 2 Q. r.e l. ni e show you 23 A . i: wen t from one room t to the o t h e r 7 4 Q I.e t. m e show you a Document. 020071 7 5 t h i s lias got the actuaL member a on those NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024626 I c o m m i I; t e e s ?. A . That ' s what, f wan talk i n g a h out.. 3 Q. -- d o e s n ' t i t ? 4 A . Yeah . Yes . b Q . Now, w e r e t h e re any r r. pro senta t. 1 vein o f the 8 on those c o m m L t. t e e s ? 7 A . T h i s .if! what 1 already H a id. EPA was 8 i nv i led to p d f t i c i p a t; e . 9 What, would the' RPA do? The E P A did 1 0 attend the neet i mjs ; but when It. comes down to 1 1 working out. the nitty gritty, we couldn't, get an EPA 1. 3 guy Ln there, Wo asked EPA to attend a LI of our J 3 in e e t. i n g r . 1. 4 Q . fill huh . 1 b A. And if you want, to get. into that, we'd meet. 16 L n -- L n Chicago with t h e ft P A; and the next time 1 7 you'd meet, in Cincinnati with a different EPA man. 18 We met in Washington a I: (lathers berg and so on. 1 9 It -- we asked then e people. 2 0 Q My point is that these committees were 2 1 really made up of two M o nsa nI o people and, with the 2 2 exception of o n e represent a I: i v e f r o m f. h e Department 2 8 of At my on the transformer group, the transformer 3 4 a n d capac i to t* man u f ac tu rn rs, weren't they"7 2h A. Excuse ine for laughing. And you're going NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024627 I t n s a y I; his i. s :? e I. 1' - s e v v i. n q . 2. Q. I'm j u n 1 d s k i n q who what, people were on 3 the committees. 4 A . As you see it r j q h t. the; e . You're right, S Q. Okay. C A . Thin is coir e. c. t. . I tried to say how 1 CO(ll(> .... a Q. Well, how did it wind up like that, that 9 A . Well., I said the people on the capacitor i o qroiip were people knowledgeable with capacitors; and i i the people on transformers, they were knowledgeable 3 2 w i t. h L r,i fis f cinners . ] -I Q . 1 mean, I note; in reviewing this document, 1 4 that it appears that there, were people; from the FI H A J h and -- l 6 A , Yeah. 1 7 Q. .... the RKA and the TVA and others that were i a on these committees, but they didn't get involved in 1 9 the working group;;. 2 0 A . They didn't want, to work. Thev didn't know 7 l what to do. 2 2 Q. Okay. 2 3 A. That's that's all. Hut. they were on the 2 4 comm i. t t e e . 2 S (> . Okay. Now, the National Klect. rical NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024628 L M a n u V a c t u r o ms A s s o r i a t i o n c .init! out with t h o L r own 2 standards -- 3 A, Yea, they did. A Q. ~ - for i. hr hand line; of Ff II' a in l5 t r .1 n s l; o mber a , did t h oy no t ? 6 A . Yea, t hey did. 7 Q. Now, did Moua.inlo have a role In being n involved i ri the development, of the National 9 R l<: hr icti l M.inu f a o t u r e r a Association standards ? 1 0 A. From the standpoint that, those NKMA people lL r e the a m n p nop l o t. h a t that t think you find 1 7 t. h e i Oil t.h e ANS 1 t. h i nq , i t. ' S - I - it's difficult. 1 1: o r mo to so. pa ra to those; h wo. T got mixed up with 1 A it. nt v s e 1 f 1 b 0 Th cy ' re. p / e t. 1 y closely r e 1 a t e d - - i a A . Oh, absolutely. ) / Q - t. h e i n d u ;; L r y trade group and the AN S'. I? i o A . Absolutely, 1 9 Q. Almost, one a nd t. hi e s a m e V 7 0 A . Yea . 71 Q . Okay. The 7 7 A . The one i s d ale d '77, and l h hint t. h o o the r 7 3 o n t: i s d a t e d ' 7 3 and 74 Q f think it's '7 3 and '74. 7 b K xcuo r. me. Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024629 1 Q- 7 I". ri|)p<>.H's that l <: t mo show you the NRMA 3 wtandardg -- 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q - - the N a t i o n a ) K ) e c 1. r i c. a i M. i in i f a c t. u r e r s Association. V t ' s Document /ft 4 through B l fj . it f. appears they came out :i n January of 3 9 7 3. 7 A . ALL r i qh h . a Q. And Ltip.n the ANSI standards , the C- 3 0 7 , 9 a p p a r e n t L y c a me out j n J .1 n u .1 r y o I: 19/4. ! 0 A . yeah . I 1 0 . And that's Dor. u merit. 7 38 through 763. i A. nh-huh, right. Okay, 1 3 Q. Now, those standards, both the National L 4 H Inc t ric.1 L M a ntifac turcra Association 3 tan d a nis and 3 a t Lie American Nation-'] Standards Institute l (> s I: a n d a r d s - and both of: those were prepared by ! 7 t h e s e g t o u p n t. Li a l b a s i c. a J 1 y were < a m p r i n c d o f I i'< i n d u s t:ry people and Monsanto - 3 9 A . Yes. 30 Q. -- those standards were very nimj lar to 3. 1 each other, were they not? 3 7 A . 0 h , t Li e y a re . 3 3 Q . Almost', identical? 3 4 A . They are. 3 S Q . Yeah. Those standards areconsiderably NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024630 I diPNirent than I: lie standards t h a t the K I' A came out 2 with on behalf c> 1 the ciovfu imif'iit , are t. he y n o l 3 A. You're Ln an area now where f was out of 4 t he p j c.t.vjre . S 0 . I aee . 6 A . 1 c a ti n o t a n >' we r thin. 1d o n't. know. 7 Q. Well, art? you aware? oil the fact that when U the Government took act. ion its action was much `3 ih o r n similar t o I; hat of j a p .3 n t h a n to what these 1 0 i n d u s t r y cj r o u p s did? 1. I A . r dL d n' t kn o w that, n o . 1 7 Q . 0 k a y . You a :r c. n ' t a w a r e of the.fact, that 1 1 I. h<? Government banned the manufacture of PCfl's?i 1 4 A . T n J a p a ti ? 1 S Q No . f. n t h n (J n i ted S ta to s . ] 6 A . I n the Uni 1. t:d Stale's, banned it. yes . T tv a I. 7 same a 1 i. 11 l e late r 1. h a n '77. ' 7 3 , a s I r e m e in b e r . 1 H i s t. h a t. r i q h t ? t 3 Q. It was of feetive '73 - ?n A. Kffeetivc 2 l Q. - - but tii e decision was made and y ?. i ecj ,i slat i o n pa s;; od i n ' 7 6, wa an 1 l 1 t. V 2 3 A. T accept what; you say. 4 MP , C'RAWFOWI) ; Well, if you know, to.ll s nim. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024631 A . 1. don't know. 2 Q . (fly Mr. I, a r c y ) Okay. .3 A . T was r t Lrod . 4 Q . Okay. You ci o t e c o c j n i / e I h a t t. h e G o v e r u m on 1 3 notion w.is conn iiltuMh I y il i f: ttjrun t than what both the 6 Na t i ona 1 K] ec tr i ca J i A. No, t don't. 8 Q . Okay. Did either theN a t. i o n a JKlectricul `) M a mi I: a c t u r e r a Assoc ijl- ion or the American National ) 0 standardn I (intitule recommend that. I'CH's be banned t 1 f: r o m u s o a s d i o 1 o c t r ins ? 3 2 A . 1 - - 1 don't know. 1 w a 3 - - I wasn't. i n i t 1. 3 at that L i. in e , to my know 1edq o. 1 4 Q W e r e n ' t you on these committees lb A . 0h . 1 f. Q . when thea e report 3 were written? 1 7 A . All r i cj h t . 1 think you arc correct. j: 1 8 t h i n k j v e heard what. you've said. 1 9 F think , if you want a short answer. I 2 0 would have to n a y " n o . " T h a t. :i s t. h e a n n w e t . 3 1 Q. Okay . W h a 1 the indust: r y rue: o in in e n d e d and 2? w h a 1 the fiovf'rnmenl die) we r e very d.i f fere n t. . 2 3 Industry said keep on using PGfl's and the Government 7 4 said stop. MR. CKAWFOld) : Well, what. t. i m t* frame NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024632 1 are y o u t a 1 k i n <j a bnu t, ? 2 A . Well, depe Ttd i nci o n w h a t time, f t a m e y o 3 ta L k i. nq about. . 4 Q ( R y Mr. I. a c . - y ) Well, t h e industry w a Li s a y i. n <; f r o m 1 9 7 0 on, "Km p on us in<j them. wo ' t o have t h e in " '7/ A . Y es, until they f i n d a s u b s t j t u t. e . n i)o t h ? 3 e d oc uinenta say a n y I: h L n <; a b o u t <-> 1 ook: nc; for a subs t. i t u t. e f o r P C H ' s ? i o A . That, wa sn ' t t h o sub j < c t o f 1; hose! ii d oe u in e n t s T h e rs u b ) e c t o f the se d oc u hi cuts is to t. r y i v. a nil u o u It o w to |)l e / e n t; c o n t a m i n a t L o n o f; the 1 3 t n v j t o n in e n t with PCR's. 1 4 0 . [ SOI?. 1 S A. That j what t. h ee documents are addressed 1 b t o . 3'ho - - tho purpom? ol: Mms c documents was not 3 7 to find a a u l> s l i t u t. v . The purpose of these t n documents is to try ami spec i. t: y standards as to how 1 9 to pievent. con t ami n a i 5 n q t. he. e n v > r o n in e n t. , o b v i o u s I y , 2 0 in the contin u,i I; Lo n of - of P T R ' s . And this is w h y ? 1 1 a qre.c with what you've s aid. 3 3 Q . r n fa c t , wasn't i t. Mans a n t o ' s p o s i t i o n that ; 3 i t wou.1 (1 he appropriate to continue lo manufacture 7.4 and use PCR's in the dielectric area because 3 l. Monsanto was point; to ensure that the- pioducts NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024633 t didn't 11 <i t out i n t o t h e o n v i t i.i n m e n t f: ro m t h e i r 7 plants and to refuse l.o sell PCH ' s lo any bod-' who 1 let Putt's (]et out into the environment from their 4 P]ants? MR. CRAWFORD: If you know. fi A . t don't know, no, on L h a t one. 7 Q . ( H y M i . Lacey) 1 ?? e c B A . You ough t to check wi th s o m e h o d y o 1 u e 9 T s e r , Well, let. me show you again t. 0 Document 2 0 02 I through 200.19 and direct your ) 1 at lent, ion l.o Page 2 0 0 '?. fi and 1 '2 A . Okay . 1 B (> . That. 1 s the st.eeri nq commi t.t. ee statenent on l 4 P CII ' !? , i s i. t n o t ? 1 h A . 1 would a n sane ft a , yes. That's wh a t i 1 In s a y a . 1 7 Q. You were: chairman of t. hat. a Leering 1 B comm L 11 e a? 19 A. Yes. 2 0 Q. Okay. A lift lown her r- in Item No. 4 it says 2 1 t h a t "Str i c t .i nd e r f c cti ve si eps nave been I: a k in 11 j 2 2 a v o i d i n t. r o d u c t. j on of ITU's 1 n f o t h e e n v 1 i omne nt ;d 2.1 Hons a n t. o ' :t p 1 a n t s " 7. 4 A . Y or.. 2 b 1? ' a n d by l he f a c i .1 i t. i o a used where 1_________________________________________________________________ NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024634 t Va 1 - typo t r a n s f o r in o r s a n d capacitors a r o m a cl o . " 2 A . This .) i\ t' o r r e r. t . Th is is w h a t. i l s ays . .1 Q. Okay . Th o p o s i t ion t hat was bei nq taken by 4 this qroup was that PCD ' s weren't qoinq t o hi- an `i o i r v i t oimitMita l prob I n m w h o n a a o ii i n t li e < ! e c t r L c iii du stry because the mu n u f a c. t. u re r , Mom: ante, and 7 Monsanto's e u s t o mo r a were qo i ikj to unsure that they a didn't qet out in the environment; is that, correct. ? 9 MR. C'HftWPORDi Will l , that's his 1 0 arte lination, He ss u r e y o u understand 1 l A . E d i d not w r L t e t h is. E s i tj n <5 d i :>. Q . (Hy M i- . Iriiccy ) Who wr ote that? 11 A . My n<i ine i. s o n h e r o 14 Q . .1 t. w a s q h o s t. w r i 1.t e n for y o u ? i b A . i d i d n o t w r i. to f: It i s , ) f () Who w r o t v. i t ? 1/ A . E don't know. B u t. --- i n Q Well, w hy i s y o u r n a in e. o n i t ? 19 A . My name was u s e d i. n many ways. 7 0 Q. Well, did yuu a p p r o v e t h e d o c u hi o 7 1 used your name tint; ore they went out? 77 A . Tn ec so nce , I wou ] d h avc to uY / yeS 75 Q Oka y . 'o - - 7 4 A , Y e s , i n e :< s e no e . 7 ri 0 . oO , 1he poa 1 1. i o n t; h a 1: the s t o r iI nq NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024635 I c omm i t 1.1' h wu s tu k i i><j wci :3 I", h a l. P c R ' s wi'rnn 1 t qo i. n q t; o 2 be an e. n v i r o n m e n t a I pro b I p m i rt d i e] ec t. r i c u s e 3 bacausi! MonS'into, as the inaniiC.icLunjr, a rut t he 4 people t. o whom Monsanto sold, as the a cl.ua.I hin Iders S ol: e a par. i tors and U'.'inn Por r s , wore qo i nq ho take 6 the necessary ;;1cps to keep them from qett i nq out. 7 into t h e onvi.ro n m o n t:'{ R MR. CRAWFORD: Well, 1 will state that 9 it: states what their purpose is in the -he'3 read 1 0 it. and that that, ought, to stand for 1 l Q. (fly Mr. Durey) And isn't - isn't that ) 7 who t - j s n ' t. that, i ti sum, exactly what, you were t 3 s t a t i n g? J 4 A .Th a t. ' u wh a t i t rr t. a t es i ri here:, yes. 1. 5 Q, Now, do you know whether or not, in truth 1 6 and in fact, all of the people to w h o m Monsantosold ! 7 pen's a <: t u a 1 1. y hand L ml t: ho m in such a way a s t: o \r ci i a t. h e m f row q e 1.1. i n q i n t. o t. ti e e nvi roniHfiit. ? 1 9 A . No, d o n o t . < 1 o not. 20 Q. Wou 1 d t. h a t make any di f for o ncc t o V o u a n 7 l the chairman of the s l.<u:ri nq c o m m i t t: e o , si q n i. ng ul 2 2 document. 1 i k e t h a 1. ? 7. 3 A , R f for t w a. s made, as i t s ays here. I: o 7 4 p revent s p j i J s i n t. o t. h e v. n v i ro n me nt. . Th a 1. w a ! n o t. 2 3 f: u l L y a c h i e v e d . NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024636 ! Q . Okay , And would L t m ,i k o any d i t f e r n n c o t o 2 you, as the per non siqninq that., that that wasn't 3 actually achieved? 4 A . Yes. I n f u I J c o n c i e n c e , yes. 0. Okay. Did Monsanto take any stops, a :J |. ho 6 mtinuf dcturer of PCH's , to exercise whatever power it 7 h ad to niisu r o t h n t i 1 s run tome r s didn't allow pen's H t o b e a pr obi e hi ? 9 A . They did evc-r y th i nq t. h e y could, yea. l 0 Q . W h .1 t did they do with their customers who 1 1 w e r e n ' 1 hdiid 1 j nq P C. 1! ' <; p r o p erly ? i ' A. i don't know. You would have to check with 13 t h fa mar k e t i n < j - - w i t h t ft e p e r s o n - t. h e business l 4 d L roc t or. I b Q . Well, then, liow can you say they did 1. f> everythi mj in their power if you don't even know 1 7 what t. h e y did '? ] B A . A J ] r i () h t . T h e n i '11 withdraw w h at. I s a i d l 9 and say check into this with the top of the 2 0 business, whic h t was itol . 2 l Q. Well, would you aqroe with me that Monsanto 3 3 should have done cvcrvthi mi in their power t o try 21 a n d e n s u r e t h a t t. h e i rc u s t > m o r s d i. d n ' t 1. e t P C B ' s <j o I 2 4 i nto the env i r onmen t ? 2 b A . L a<j roe w L t h t ha t . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024637 1 Q . Oka v . Now, w h a t s t r u I. e < j y d i d M o n ,i n t o 7. follow, from its own rnr po/dt r t diidpoi nt , with A regard t; o rospofid i mi to the i'CB problem? 4 MR. CRAWFORD: if you kiiuw. . T ['aim o t. .i n s w e r h h a fc my:-! e 1. f: , no. l f. W rt !! n't 1 W rt S as .1 air e. a d y told y o u , \ was on 7 in y way to want 3 re 1; i r e m e n t; . They d i.dn ' t e a l 1. me i. n 8 O Tl t It r- s e t h 3 n q s . 9 0 ( H y Mr. I.acry) Okay. 0 k a v . Let me show l 0 y o u a do o u in e n t h e ro . It's part of a 1 a njer pa c k a g e , 1 1 b u t t h e a c ! u d 1 dor u m r n l b e q i n s a t 898 S a n d continues 1 ?. t h r o u (7 h 8 9 3 7. r I-. ' :? a memo d . i t e d March 2 2 n d , 19 7 2 - - 1 A A . Ves . 1 4 Q . f i f> m Dr. Munch t. o Mr. flossaqc, with a 1 8 copy 1: o V on, is i t n o t. ? ) L A . Yeah , 1 ' m r o i> i e d i n h e r v. . 1. 7 Q Dad you see that memo and the atta c. tun e n t s 1 0 1 o i IV ) 9 A . What was the date o n this V 7 0 Q M a V e h ) > n.1 , 1. 9 7 ?. . 2 1 A . If 1 was in t h e r a u n t. ry, i s aw it ; and 1 ? ? w o u L <1 ha V(> ffiCftiv ed it. T ' in was o n he re : s u . r 7. A a ?: r ) t m e , s o m e w ti c r e a l ori(| the line, 1 rccei v e d i 1. . 2 1 Q A n d this document set forth the at r l 1 eij y 't) C .I with r (: q aid to d i r i e c t. i i c s a n d F C K 1 s ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024638 1 1. A . Y rt :? . Q . Okay. .3 A . I undo f sLand this. 4 Q . Okay. r) A . Corn?!: t . 6 Q . Now, are you t. e .1 1 ,i riq me y o u d j d ii 1 t. h a v e a n v / P U t' l i. n fonrni L a t i n g 1h a t a tr.i togy p 8 A . No, I did not.. 9 Q . Okay. You i tin I: got co p i. ed on it so you ' d 1 0 know w h a t it was? 1 l A . r qo t copied on it, yi;s , 1 '?. () . Okay. And Dr. Munch would be more f a m i liar 1 3 w i. t-. h w h a t. t h e a c t: u a l a 1: r a tq y ] 4 A . Me wrote it. l 8 Q . (le wrote the corporate a tr.it o gy ? 1 6 A . Well, he wrote the - - th in - t h i c - l 1. / d o n ' t know if! he's transmitting w 11 a t w a n w v i 1: t e n by ) 8 n omcono else. J 9 " T h e a t t. a c h e d t a a " it says 2 0 " a t r a t og y " - - " s? t. r a 1: e it y h a a h e e n rev i s e d o n the o n o 2 ] sent with my memo ol Ma r r h 17 1 h . 22 8 o m e I, h i n g was - wa s r e v i s e <1 , a n d h o. 7 3 ft o ri i t. h i : f o C' oss a q e . 0 o a a a q e i s t h e one you 24 a hou 1 d 7. 8 Q . M r . G o s h a q e wool d be at) J e t o t. a 1 k - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024639 l A 7 o :? . 2 Q ..... t. o u s n b out 4 h a t ? 3 A Yea. 4 Q Okav . bet in e s h o w yn u a n o t her rt nr vim e ri t , 9 9 7 A 3 t h r t j mi h H 7 b 'i , da a d J u n o 2. 2. n (.1 , 19 71. la tn.it. a d o r u in e Ji l i h a t you wrote ? 7 A Yea . H 0 A n d you w i o 1. e it to - 9 A. f t: h ink a <j , )0 P v t. v. r Mar a h in - in nruasfiJ s. 1 l Q o k.) y . And y ou e opie d a numb o r oC people 1 >' <i b o u l t h a t d o c u in e n t , <: a r i e c t. I 3 A C o p i p i.t i. n a n u in b e r o t: p e o p L e , firjht. 1 4 Q 1 n r l 11 d j n q Mr. G o a a a q e 1. b \ Y e a . 1 b t> 0 r . M u n c h ? 1 7 A Yo3 . 1 ?l Q Dr . H i c h a r d V i 9 A A L L h h i'SO h e r o . 2 0 Q Do e a t h i r; d e s r T' i b r t h e i n f <i v m ft 1. ion ' h a t. y o u 2 l acquireii r e q a r d i. n <| P (: M ' a a ii d i li i -i s a 1. n a p r n a pec t a f o c 7 2 Askar > j S ? 2 \ A This i a what i t d i s c u s a e s , y <- a . T h 1 a d e a 1 a ; 3 M i 1, h r a i. i. r o a d l'. rans t: o r in t r a . ? 11 O A n d t ti o i e p 1 a < e m o n t of FOB'S as t. h e ft u i d NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024640 I in T hom ? 2 A- A chariqe' - what f `ve road so far is ,s 3 to rnpLactt A roc Lor I 7. f, 0 with L 7. S 4 , That's not 4 rcplacj nq PCH ' s . f t.'s r f - p j a c i n q one I'CH w i t h :> h n o L her t' C H . I 7 n () i 3 h ox a c h 1 o r o b i p h e n y L . Thin i a > p hi tjch I o r o V) i p h o n y 3 . 7 0. Okay. a A. So, it's r c p .1 j c i n cj one with a riot her. >.) Q. ALL right. r n tho third paragraph, there ' s 1 o a d i snias ion to - a ref retire to a d.i srussion you 11 h ad w i t h C. o n e r a 1. K 1 or. trio's Wash i n g t o n , D . C . , 1 7 poopile I 1 A . fi h huh. 1 4 Q - sbmi 1 R e p r fsrnt.a t. i v e Ryan's b i ! J . l Vi A . (Jh huh. 1 6 Q. What's t. h a t. a J 1 a L> o u t. ? l 7 A . Ryan w a s a : o n g Hi s s m a n . 1 tt (> And what bi 1 f was that? l 9 A . I don't know . Til i w wa s s o m ; L h i n g i n 7.0 Congress , had t. n d o w I t. h tho Mo u s e o f 7. l 8flpreaent,iti vs , It w a s R u p r o a a n t a t i v i-i R y a n . ? 7 Th a t was a n a in i t h a 1. k e p t O T f) p p i n q u r> 7. 1 Q H u t y o u don ' t know wli i/ ? 71 A. Yvs . M k o p t o r o pj> i nq u p j ti t h 1 s this 7 li o 1 oL' PCM a iid o n v i ron ino nt.i l - - Ryan was a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024641 I name that kept ct' o p p i. nq u p , He wa s q u L to a r t i. ./ 2 5 ti - - i f) this area < > t t h o env .i rcmm r n t 1 t h 1 n q . 1 MR. (CRAWFORD: Da v i <i , how a r e y o u A doi nq? We're Tight o n 9:00 o' e I or. k . S M It . frACKV : r ' I L q u o s a may b e 7. 0 h tn t n u (. c s . T h a t w o n .1 d b ci m y q u c. : s . 7 MR. CRAWFORD: That would be S;;0. H TH K W I TN ):f. S : We i-d ri ' 1 do that.. 9 MU. CRAWFORD: No. 1 0 TMK WTTNK9S: No, we rari't do that. I 1 MU. C. I? A W l' ORD: N o . } ? TH K V I DKOGRAPHKK: t 'm ready. I 1 MR. CRAWFORD: What do you want t O J d do? Have you qot another ten mini! ten or something l t) so we can make that plane? 1 f> MH . 1, A V K Y : All 1 can do is i u:: l keep 1. 7 on going till yon say wo. need to stop and then we i n can try to conclude: this at some point. We've 19 u lose. 2 0 MR. <"i;AW F 0 K 0 : Yes. ). 1 MR. It ACC V: Hut I! don't - - you know, r ?.?. don't, knowwho Iheu w e ' t J make it in I rnminute': or 29 no t . vd MR. CRAWKO R P : Okay. W e. 1 .1 , let's g i v e 7 9 i. t ,nin I. h e r t e n mi n u I. e s NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024642 1 T rr !: W 1 T N K S G : ALL r L i T h h . 2 MR . C W A W K !! R 1) ; and then w e 3 b e t fc o r - - 4 T H ]; WITH K G Si : I don't want, i o r i ci r-: e 1 y . j> m i :? ill y p 1 ,i n e . f MR . r R A W K 0 K n : Oka y . 7 MU . [, A 0 K Y : Your flight La bark to 0 SI , b O 11 i f! 7 9 MR . CRAWKO Rl) t Yon. 1 0 Tfl K W r T N U G G : Y e s . Y o a h , ) 1 MR . l. A C K Y : in 1 h a t. the last, flight 1 2. o U i; t h i :i e-' s/ 'ii l n < j ? 1 3 M I? . C KAWKORI) : That'n the problem. 1 4 T H K HTTNR G G : You . 1 S MR . tacky : Last, flight out. of Hobby? 1. f, MR . (: R A W R 0 R D : 1 don't know if: it's J7 t h c: I a t. /1 i g h t. . I a fi a 11 hi e 1 ij Til H W r T N K G G : It's 1, h e 1 a t f: light. f 1 9 ]ooked i T t. o t h a 1 b OCM U !l Cl t w a s o r i q i n a 1 1 y n e 1 up to 7 0 do - - L o t s n c i t < i oh i (1 1 < i - 2. 1 MR . C RAWKOI.'I) : Okay. /. 7 TU K w i: r n r-:: You're n o t g o L n g L. o :> 1 b t- i u o t hi t up l.o in cr , a r e y ci u 7 2 4 MR . TACKY : I ijmis:! we ' L L Let hh. t - ' > W (1 ' 1.1 i) o t w o i i v a b o u t t h si plane. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024643 th r-: w I'TNK'ig W h a t ,i <i (5 a L . ?. Q (H Y Mr . l.n coy )The ci .* ncussions c > r the rn e o 3 th.it you wrote about - or to M t , Marsh - 4 A . M a r s h , yen . b Q . aboil t. the d i ft c u s s 5 o n s v o u h n a with l h o b various O.K. people, ci i. <i that a e e u r a t. e l v u m m a r L /. e 7 I h e various discussions you had with General R K l o o11'i r a b o u t v o p I. a o e m e n t s I: o r P C R ' a > 9 A . It) a v e n ' t. v e a d j t. . I don't know. I 0 Q . Y ci.) h , I know. II A . Hut I wouldn't,mislead - - now, we're -- 1 7. w o ' v e rj o t a - - 1 3 O. Wei I , w hi y don't you take a minute to review t 4 t ha I. ? ] b ( 1 'a i in p o r t a 111 t o m e t h a t. T know t hat 1 fi th.it is what youroc. a I. I G . U . havi. nq in termedyou, A. Yes, 1 would not have nonerated t hi i kind l !3 of in t orm a t. i. on my u oil:. u n i la t e r a 1. 1 v . I i: 1 9 wou.1 dn ' t have been a t. 1 e. t. o . T hi i s i s why buy a 2 0 dry-1y pe , expen s i vr f: u >5.> ? 1 Th 1 s i s p a H sine a 1 o inf i (if in in a l i r i n t hi ). 2 w a. s tj i von t. o mo. l f. don' i. - the - t.ii o whole 2 3 t h i n q w a s ol no i in p o i t a n r e t h a t 1 k n o w of. 7. 4 0. . 0 E no i m p o r t a n c o ? 3 b A . No . Not t hi a 1 i k n o w of. n o . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024644 L Q l 3eo . 3 A . J t. may s o u n d t ti a t w a v , b ut i t a c. t u rt 3 w a a n ' t. 4 M H . <' R A W K O HI): Hjvo w e .i d e u t j f e d that S w i h h a n u in b o i ? 6 'I' H !: WITNRSS: I don't, know. 7 MR. b ACKY : Yi;s , We proviously have. H I t ' fj R 7 h 3 I h t c* ugh H 7 6 S . ') A . Nothing h a p p e n e d as a rcsaul I' o C that, I 1 0 <i ssii r o you. ] 1 Q . ( H V Mr. 1, u c. e y ) Okay. You w e r e s t. i ] 1 l 2 i nt'.iires h.H'1 at thin point, oven to I: h o ox ton t you had 1 3 boon put on the r. h e J f , in trying to keep people I '1 a d v i 3 o d o f p o I: o n t i. a l opportunities f o r P u r t h e r s a 1. e 3 1 S o f PCH ' s l (> A . I' would say t h i s . ) 7 (> , - - e v e n thuii q h y o u u ndc r s 1. o o d t hat it w a s i n I. ho intention ol: Monsanto at this time to slop 1 9 making PCH ' s as soon or. replacements could he found? 7 0 A Yes / I won l d ha v e 1. o 3 a y this. 7.1 Q You > T- s till 1 a ok i ncj f o r in a r k e t 3 i 1) 1 h e 3 3 meant i. me? 7 7 A We 1 1 , 1 told V o u this d o e. :i n ' t. a m o vi n t to 3.4 v o r y much i r -- it - i i; y o u interp ro t 1. h i. s .I 3 7 S s i q n i f i c a n t. t. ll i HQ, a'1 1 T i q h t . 1 ti a v c to g o w i t.h NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024645 I w h .1 t t. h o - w h a t is said in thro . 2 Q. Well, I'm just t i' y i n g - 3 A. I didn't i<i noro what - what was given mo. 4 It. has to do w .5 t. h dec 1. r i c tj jj n Iran s f o r m r s , l b b e I. i o v o . b I! . Hd I , there are ct .i s r u s n ,i o n s in I here about / I h i pros pot: l:a for sol I i ng PCH's to China, a need for 8 PCH's in Rims i rt - aren't those things di sciumed 9 thero? J 0 A . I d i d n ' t r ea d i. hat . 1 l 0. Well, maybe we. ought to step back and just 1 2 look at it iKjdjri. I - let me show you the -- l 3 A . In this thing - 1 A Q . - t. h e t h 1 r cl p a q e . 1 b A . - - to Marsh? ) 6 0. Yes. Here - here's t. lie memo. tt has Page I 7 I, Page 2, Pago 3. You're talking about here China ) 0 is uni nq to p r c> h a b 1 y need cons i d i r a b 1 e A r o e .1 o r f o r l 9 capacitors. The Russians, who have two plants, have 30 need for 5,000 tons per year. 2 1 A. I was passing along i ntiorma t.ioii Nut I 2 picked u p s om e wh ore . 2. 3 0. Now, why did you think that information 7 4 would be of interest to Monsanto since you 7 5 understood they had already made the. decision to NEtL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024646 l s t o p sol L L n g PGR '3 a s un on as their customers noid 2 switch over? 3 A . Nobody h (i d r a placement for PC ft . 4 Q . Well, y on win' e t a 1. k L ng a h out - h A . Thin 1 h J n t i e s in, as i u n d e r s t. a n d i t. , 6 with K u r ope, in k e r n a h i o n aL --- Marsh i s In Kuro pe . 7 1' h e i r post.ure on F C H J don 1 t. know the da 1. e of B h his t h i n g r i ij ii t n o w was considerably d l f f: e rent 9 f T Olfl the posture ti e r e i n t. h e S t a t. e 3 . 1 0 g I' son. '.Jo, Mon a <into only was ijo lm| to stop 1 1 se.1.1 > nr, )'C'H's in the Uni ted Staten. They were going l 2 to kiMip on sol I i. ng them overseas? 1 3 A . Th e F r e n c h w e r e o o 5 n q t o , the G e mans and t 4 so r o r t h - I b Q . And Mon:: unto was, too ? A . - u n d t h e Russians, J / f'u r d o n '> X n g. And M o n s a n I. o was, too? ) 9 When Monsanto shut, down here, that 2 0 automat ally shut i. I; down i. n in n r L t a i. n . T n a t 3 1 .is what. 2? Q 23 r the r p M o n s a n t. o w a s go i, n g to try t o e o n t i n u ? 4 to sell 2t> A . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024647 T ho r *; w a s cons i d e r a h I y d i IN' mnt than L t vm ^ |. ( rt . Q. Were you involved at all .in laoni torino i he actual ad l3 by Mona.i it l:o o t lJCB m a t r i a l ,s , i n determininq what wan pjotitable and what war not 7 A. No. i: think now you' n: qeth inq in .in area that i nvol v r a o t. h e r than die) nr l.i i r . 1 Q , W e I. L - cl A. You're talk Inq about the broad area. ') Q. Okay. And yu weren't involved -- i n A . No, :i wan n o t in t hat. i i Q id von i.hoiujh t r o in 19 / 1 o n M o n s a n t o t at least i 7 i n t h e U n i t r cl V, t a t. c. :< , was 13 m 3 tinq its sal e 3 t. C) i i it; o i. a r. t r i r. u s o s ? i -i A . Y e a h . t h a 1. - t ha t ' r? r ' q h t . l b Q On y o ii riic.i L 1 any t L m e w hen M o n s a n 1, o was 1 fi h a v 3 IK! trouble s e 1 .1 3 n q i t a A r o c 1 o r s t> e c a u c o t h e t / q u a 1. i t y o t Its pro d u <: t. was not as qood as that or i n i t a c o in p e t. 3 t o r s ? i. ) A . No. Who a ro i t s e o in p o t. i 1; o r s > y o Q Wed ! , w o r e n 1 t t her r o 1 h e r poo p .1 e a r o u n cl t. h c 2 l world who w e r e in a k i n q peil's at s o in e p o i n t i n t i m e y 2 A . oh, V <* 51 . No, l t. h o u q h t v'nu were t a .1 k i n cj 2\ oh , y o u ' r n - y a u * c o, i. n t. o ex q . H . y rt U ;i ' jo ask inq whether or not you rue a ) 1 a ;ri p (it to d o t t i in o w 11 nn M o n s .into ' s pr o d u r. t l o n of: P('H ' s NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024648 1 was not ,i j qood ,i I'uality n.-3 that ol: I: ho. fa pa nor; o 2 and the Germans. for example? 1 A . No. No, absolutely no 4 Q. It. Wii s always s u [i e r i o T' ? S A . L 3 o n 1 h s .1 y l 1; was " s u pe t* lor. " T w 0 s 6 c. q u i vale n t . .1 Isay t ti c i r quality, a s f a / a s f 1 k n o w , w a s and could have been equivalent. R T h i s c: o in e s back to s e 1.1 i n q t. hesr 9 into r n a t. i o n a l s I; a n d a r d 3 t hat t. work o d on. That w a 3 1 0 t. h e [Ml T p O sc* for it., to have u ni f ormity of quality, L l 0. . And y o u d on ' t - - you don't recall at any 1 2 po i n t i n t i m e the Unite cl Slut es 1 plant a or Monsanto t 3 i n 1h o fj n l t e d li t .1 t os ho i ncj e o nre r nod that t Ls PC R ' a 1 4 were n o t. as qood a ([ n a 1 i ty - l 5 A . N o , no, no. N o t at. all. 1 6 t> 0 k a y . l 7 A . No . 1 H 0 . If that, happened, would that tic- s ill p r j S i n q 19 to you? 2 0 A . Oh, i t w o u1d . 2 l Q. - Okay. Rom e ot the s e A s !< a r e l s , o r PCn 'a , 2 2 u a cd i n t r a n s f o r in r r s and fapuri t. o r s h a d o t her 2 3 in a t. s r i .x 1. 3 added to the in I n a d d i t i o n t o t: h o p c n ' 3 , 2 4 (1 1 d t h e y n o t V 23 A . Yos . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024649 !. . Q An i.l w ( r h t h o s e o t ho r m a t e r i a La a p r o ti l e in or 7 having toxic cf f cct :i or advc r n e e f f e c t. s o n it u in a n 1 hoalth? 4 A . Not. to my k n o w 1 ed ere . Q . A S 1 : a r .1 s yo ii kno w, that was n o t 1'. h a iM s e ? A. No . ! t h ii n k y 11 b e 1.1 e r t a ] k t o t. h e m r cl ] c a / poop I (! on this. 0 Q. I.ot. mo show you a Document 1 d 9 4 7 . That's a 9 h.indwc L t ten note Dated April S t h , 1968, from an 1 0 R. M. McC ut.chron at. the Krummrich p 1 a n t. t. o you, is 1 l i t not? 1 2 A . Yes . l 1 0 . And i t t a Iks about - 1 <1 A . 19 6 8. Oli , all r1q ht . 1. b Q - t a Iks about things added o PCR ' :? - - 1 6 A . All r i q 1) t. . This is an added s r a v e n q e r . 1 7 Th L s <i o e s h a v e t o X 1 c i t y, yes. i n 0 Okay . So , some of the products that. 1 9 Monsanto sold <: <5iit .lining PCR's not only had PC n ' s o but also had other Hiii l: e i i a 1 s t. h a t c o u . d c a. u s e t. O X 7. 1 problems , ii i d i. h i' y no 1: V 72 A. Th i is what. 1 h e v e a 1 1 e. (.1 a " : c a v t: n q e r 2 1 u s e D i n t he a in o u n L o t a Pew t e n t ti s n 1: a perron t: J 7 t P er s e , t ti e r e e p o x i de s hav e t hei r own m e d i r a .1 e Iia r a c t e r i s !.. i e s h it o r y , 1 e t in e say. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024650 A n d o n t; h i s 3 u b j o c t !'. h i s l 5 aonifit-. h i mj 2 for the medics 1 pooplO .1 Q Okay . 1 A . - f O T Or. K ei 1y. r) 0. On you k now w h y a p t a n t per 3 0 n w a writin g 6 Y 0 u to l. e 1 1 v ci u a h 0 ii t. t h a t p r 0 b 1 e m ? 1 A . No, L don't. No, 1 don't. B (> . Hu t you d 0 1 era t 1 t h a t s 0 m e of t. fl Cl 9 add L fives t li a f. wore put l II those PCH'' s E 0 r 1 0 d i c 1 e c t r i c: f> u r p 0 s e s h ad t. h cir own a d dit iorial toxic l 1 p r 0 b loms , 0. 0 r r e <: f ? 1 2 A . T tt i s j s c 0 r r e 0 t . K 11 oxides, w e 're talking 1.1 dbou t ; and I h i. s i a correct , T h o l-,ox ico loijy of J 4 (' p x i d (: I s a separate sub icet , and 1 'm not qualified l 5 t o e q 11 a t o If, 1 6 Q . What. sort, of warn i nqn did your qroup 1 7 prov ido to the people to whom you sold PC ft m a to r i a L s 1 fl having these scavengers added t. o them? Anything? 19 A. Not as a format, program or approach, that T 2 0 know of. 2 ) You're, red rrri nq to the f.a c t. of the 2 2 a d d l I ion o f this smalt a in o u n t o f :icav o n g or, what 2 1 c f f e r t t h a 1. fi a s w h a t f> e a 1 i n g t h a t has, 0 n y 4 1 0 g y a 11 d 3 0 E 0 r t It , Not that I know of 0 X ?.S However, they would refer to the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024651 t I. i tcr.ihifH <3 n on these things to poop Ln using 7 them, the what ` r, printed in the literature. Q. The primary so urea of Literature to people 4 a b o u t a n y tox i col o g leal c> r d e. r in a t o J o g i c a .1 p r o b 1 < m c b with PCM 's and As kora l as die Lor, trie fluids was the b literature that we've already .looked at., was it not? 7 A. Yes, 8 (> . Are you aware: of any o t. h c: r 1 A t e r a t ur e 9 provided to customers a b ou t tox icoloqy or hazards, 1 0 oilier than wliitt. we've already 1 oaked at.? l l A. No. ] 7 Q . Bo , a h far as you know, as the person l 7 d o s i g n a t c d by Mo n s a n t o t, o speak to idverl; is L n tj on 1 4 d A t J :c: t r Acs , m a r k e. 1 A ti q o n dieJect r.i c. n , an d t. e c fi n A c a 1 l h d a t a o n d i e 1 e o t r L <: s , t hat ' s t h < so 1 s sour c: e o C 1 6 A Tl f orma tAon tiuppl A ed to customers? l 7 A . As Car as know. y o s . 1 8 MW . (!KAWKOND j We better shut her 19 d o w n . 7.0 MR . F.ACKY ; Okay . He! 1 , Wf* .1 1 7 l Tfl K W 1 T NR!1 !i : Yea h . 7 7 MR . I, ACHY : Le: t in e a d d r e s s t h e 7 7 n' nos t i on e r WO llfi O d t ir c o in p 1 o t o 1. his 1 a 74 n o l . 7 b MR . c: K A WI-'OKl) : Okay . FA ne. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024652 I MU. (. ACKY: A n -1 wn ' l 1 decide what: t o 2 do at. future date. Hut., r i q b t now, wo ' 1 ] iu.st .1 e n v e 1 it o p e n , subject: t: o b <; i. n <j c o m p L e 1o d . 4 MR. CRAWFORD:All rJqhl. Maybe w c l'i can do it by phone It: you don't have a Lot of 6 q u o s t. i o n r. . 7 MR . I. ACF.Y : Okay. We ' J ] 1 ook a l that n w he n we tj e t: 1: h e r e . y MR . CRAWFORD: Okay. i o T H K VIDKOORAPHRR: This concludo 9 the ] i d e p o r-t i t i o n o f Mr . haul Fi e. niqnus . The time i r *11. l 2 MR . I.ACF Y : You need to note 1 t ' s the 1 3 conti n u a t. i o n . J t. ''n not the conclusion l 4 Tfl K V rDKOGRM'HKR : Okay. r t ' s 11 0 tod . J fj MT. . 0 1. K S'. K N : Adjourned, rather . L fi * * i< * * 17 lR 19 20 21 22 y 74 7 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024653 i '4 L i> .1 N AT U H S OJi HI YMRSS ?. 3 1 , V* Ain. GKORGK H K N 1 G N U S , sole' m n 3 y 4 uwfidr or a f. F. i r m , under the p a i n 3 and p e n a 1 t i 1: :J o P b tie i i u r V , that t. h v foreqoinq p a q v. 3 , 1 6 B t t\ r o u q h 14 6. 6 c (5 n t a l n a t. r in: and correct t r a n script o P t h e 7 t. e s t i m o n y q j v e n t> y i t: a t 1, h c. t ,i m e a n d p 3 a c e s t. a ted. a w i t h t. ii o c orri: c t i o n s , i f a n y , and the v e a a mis 9 t.heref or n o t. e d on a je.piirnt.e sheet of paper and t 0 a t t a o h r> d hero h o ; and t (l .a t 1 am siq n1n q this b e 1: ova a 1 ] N o t ary P u b 1 i r . l7 13 PA Iff, GRORGR BLN 1 GNUS l4 1b 1 6 THK SiTATK OF : l 7 U IJ R13 Cl R 1 H R D AND *3 WORN 'CO OR FORK MK, the ) a under!; i (jned authority, hy the witness, PAUL GFOKGK 19 RKNIGNUS, on this the _______day o i; , 2 0 1987 . 21 22 22 7 4 My commission expir s Not. ary Public i.n and Pec The* S t:a te o P 3 L> NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024654 ) -l'UK 3' \ T K OF TEXAS: 3 I , Cheryl I K . f. e F e vers, a C e r 1 j f j c <i 3 Shorthand Reporter, ho to by certify that the 4 foreqoinq testimony war; qiven before me after the S W i t n e h s' had b o on firs t d u I. y s w o r n . 0 i fur the; certify that J propared this 7 transcript and that t h foreqoinq pages constitute a 8 romplete and correct copy of the transcript of the 3 procooijinqs , 1 0 I f u r t h e r cert.) f y t. h a t 1 am neither I t attorney for, rotated to, nor employed by any of the 1 3 part i os to t he lawsuit, in which this deposition was l 3 taken; further, I am neither related to nor employed ) 4 by any attorney of record in this can t. , nor do i 1 3 have a financial interest i. n the matter. 16 J 7 GIVEN UNDKR MY HAND AND 8 K A1, OF OFF]OK I 8 L n Houston, Texas, on this the 38 th day of April, 1 9 ] 98 7 . 30 3 ) ------ ---------- Clii'C^'l L K`. ' bo Fevers , (SR , Cl.', OM 33 3 3 C e r t. i f i e a t. i o n Number: J C 9 0 Da t e of K x p L r a I: i. o n : De c o m be r 3 1, 19 8 8 3.4 Add res:'.: 3900 limit h Street, Suite. 104 ([ous ton, Te xa s 7 7 0 0 fi 3 b Phone: 7 l .3 / 8 3 .3 3 7 h 7 NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024655 Pag* Lin* LAVYIK'S HOTIS NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024656