Document zQeOLMQ1pKEer8d9rdeN6nwm6

9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO LEROY WHITE AND CHRISTINE WHITE, ) PLAINTIFFS, AGCO CORPORATION, ET AL., ) NO. ) DEFENDANTS. 10 11 12 13 14 15 DEPOSITION OF CARLO MARTINO 16 SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA 17 THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 2, 2004 18 19 20 21 22 REPORTED BY: 23 MARIA A. MORA C.S.R. NO. 12001, R.P.R. JOB NO. 38358HAN 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 2 FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO 3 4 5 LEROY WHITE AND CHRISTINE WHITE, ) ) 6 PLAINTIFFS, ) 7 VS. ) ) CASE NO. 430305 8 AGCO CORPORATION, ET AL., ) ) ) 9 DEFENDANTS. ) j 10 11 12 13 14 15 DEPOSITION OF CARLO MARTINO, TAKEN ON BEHALF OF 16 THE PLAINTIFFS AT ONE MARKET PLAZA, SPEAR TOWER, 17 SUITE 3500, SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA 18 COMMENCING ON THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 2, 2004, 19 9:41 A.M., BEFORE MARIA A. MORA, CSR NO. 12001, 2 0 RPR, A CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER IN AND FOR 21 THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES, STATE OF CALIFORNIA. 22 23 24 25 ` 2 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 APPEARANCES: 2 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 3 PAUL, HANLEY HARLEY, L.L.P. BY: J. BRUCE JACKSON 4 ATTORNEY AT LAW 1608 FOURTH STREET 5 SUITE 300 BERKELEY, CALIFORNIA 94710-1709 6 510.559.9980 FOR THE DEFENDANT UNION CARBIDE CORPORATION: 8 MC KENNA, LONG ALDRIDGE, L.L.P. BY: LISA L. OBERG 9 ATTORNEY AT LAW ONE MARKET 10 SPEAR TOWER,SUITE 3500 SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA 94105-1475 11 415.267.4175 12 13 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 INDEX 2 EXAMINATION BY PAGE 3 MR. JACKSON 5 4 5 6 EXHIBITS 7 PLAINTIFFS' PAGE 3 1 NOTICE OF DEPOSITION AND NOTICE OF 5 INTENTION TO VIDEOTAPE DEPOSITION 9 TO PRESERVE TESTIMONY FOR TRIAL OF DEFENDANT UNION CARBIDE CORPORATION'S 10 PERSON(S) MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE (4 PGS.) 11 2 UNION CARBIDE'S BUSINESS RECORDS 71 (6 PGS.) 12 13 DEFENDANT'S PAGE 14 A DEFENDANT UNION CARBIDE CORPORATION'S 5 OBJECTIONS TO PLAINTIFFS' NOTICE OF 15 DEPOSITION OF DEFENDANT'S PERSON MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE (5 PGS.) 16 17 13 MARKED QUESTIONS 19 (NONE) 20 21 22 INFORMATION TO BE SUPPLIED 23 (NONE) 24 25 4 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA, THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 2, 2004 2 9:41 A.M. 3 4 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT 1 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 5 BY THE CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER.) 6 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT A WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 7 BY THE CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER.) 8 9 CARLO MARTINO, 10 HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN, WAS 11 EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: 12 13 EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. JACKSON: 15 Q GOOD MORNING, MR. MARTINO. ONCE AGAIN, MY NAME 16 IS BRUCE JACKSON. I'M COUNSEL FOR THE PLAINTIFFS IN 17 THESE MATTERS. YOU UNDERSTAND YOU'RE UNDER OATH TODAY 18 TO GIVE A DEPOSITION IN TWO DIFFERENT LAWSUITS, THE 19 LINDA WALDEN CASE AND THE LEROY WHITE CASE? 20 MS. OBERG: I WANT TO INDICATE THAT THE LINDA 31 WALDEN CASE HAS BEEN DISMISSED. 32 MR. JACKSON: OH, YOU GUYS ARE NO LONGER -- 23 MS. OBERG: YES. AGAINST UNION CARBIDE. 24 BY MR. JACKSON: 25 Q OKAY. SO AS FAR AS THE FORMALITY OF YOUR 5 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 DEPOSITION TODAY, THEN, LET ME REPHRASE MY QUESTION. 2 YOU UNDERSTAND YOU'RE UNDER OATH TODAY TO GIVE A 3 DEPOSITION IN THE LEROY WHITE CASE? 4 A YES. 5 Q YOU'VE GIVEN DEPOSITIONS IN THE PAST; IS THAT 6 CORRECT? A YES. 8 Q AND I READ A DEPOSITION THAT YOU GAVE BACK IN 9 MAY OF 2001 OVER THE TELEPHONE IN THE RICHARD YEAGER 10 CASE. DO YOU RECALL THAT DEPOSITION? 11 A I -- THE NAME -- I DON'T RECALL THE EXACT NAME, 12 NO. 13 Q OKAY. SO THE NAME OF THE CLIENT DOESN'T 14 MEAN -15 A NO. 16 Q -- ANYTHING TO YOU, BUT DO YOU RECALL GIVING A 17 DEPOSITION OVER THE PHONE ABOUT THAT TIME, MAY OF 2001, IS IN AN ASBESTOS-RELATED LAWSUIT? 19 A YE3 . 20 Q YOU ALSO TESTIFIED AT TRIAL IN SAN FRANCISCO IN 31 THE VICTOR TRINCHESE CASE. DOES THAT LAWSUIT RING A 32 BELL? 23 A AGAIN, I DON'T REMEMBER THE NAMES, BUT I DID 24 TESTIFY AT TRIAL. 3 5 Q OKAY. THOSE ARE THE TWO OCCASIONS THAT I KNOW 6 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 ABOUT. CAN YOU THINK OF ANY OTHER TIMES WHERE YOU'VE 2 GIVEN A DEPOSITION AND TESTIFIED AT TRIAL JUST FOR AN 3 ASBESTOS LAWSUIT? 4 A I'VE GIVEN ABOUT SIX OR SEVEN DEPOSITIONS -- 5 Q OKAY. 6 A -- OVER THE PAST THREE YEARS. 7 Q OKAY. AND ARE THOSE ALL DEPOSITIONS THAT HAD 8 SOMETHING TO DO WITH AN ASBESTOS CASE? 9 A YES. 10 Q OKAY. CAN YOU THINK OF ANY OTHER PLACES THAT 11 YOU'VE ACTUALLY GIVEN DEPOSITION TESTIMONY IN AN 12 ASBESTOS CASE? 13 MS. OBERG: WHEN YOU SAY "PLACES," PLACES WHERE 14 THE WITNESS WAS? 15 BY MR. JACKSON: 16 Q YEAH, WHERE YOU WERE. I MEAN WERE THEY ALL 17 TELEPHONIC FROM NEW JERSEY? 13 A NO. 10 Q OKAY. HAVE YOU TESTIFIED IN ANY OTHER 20 COURTROOMS ASIDE FROM SAN FRANCISCO? 31 A NOT SINCE -- NO. JUST SAN FRANCISCO. 22 Q OKAY. AND ASIDE FROM COMING TO THE 23 SAN FRANCISCO AREA TO TESTIFY OR TELEPHONICALLY IN NEW 24 JERSEY, ARE THERE ANY OTHER PLACES THAT YOU HAD TO GO 25 FOR A DEPOSITION IN AN ASBESTOS CASE? 7 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 A NO. 2 Q OKAY. PROBABLY THE EASIEST WAY TO DO THIS: ON 3 EACH OF THOSE OCCASIONS WAS MC KENNA, LONG fi ALDRIDGE -- 4 WAS THEIR LAW FIRM REPRESENTING YOU AT THE DEPOSITION? 5 A NOT THE FIRST ONES. 6 Q OKAY. WERE THE FIRST ONES A LAW FIRM ON BEHALF 7 OF UNION CARBIDE? 8 A YES. 9 Q OKAY. ALL RIGHT. I READ A LITTLE BIT ABOUT 10 YOUR BACKGROUND. AS I UNDERSTAND IT, YOU STARTED WITH 11 UNION CARBIDE IN THE BAKELITE DIVISION IN 1948. IS THAT 12 RIGHT? 13 A THAT'S RIGHT. 14 Q AND BECAME A GROUP MANAGER IN THE MOLDING AND 15 LAMINATED RESINS GROUP IN 1960? 16 A THAT'S RIGHT. 17 Q AND A SENIOR GROUP MANAGER IN 1970? 13 A YES. 15 Q AND WHEN DID YOU RETIRE FROM UNION CARBIDE? 20 A 1996. 31 Q OKAY. HAVE YOU BEEN EMPLOYED SINCE '96? 22 A NO. 23 Q NO. AND ARE YOU CURRENTLY EMPLOYED? 24 A NOTHING OTHER THAN WHAT I'M DOING -- 25 Q OKAY. 8 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 A -- HERE AS A -- AS A CONSULTANT. 2 Q OKAY. AND ARE YOU PAID FOR YOUR CONSULTING 3 WORK THAT YOU'VE DONE IN ASBESTOS CASES? 4 A YES. 5 Q HOW ARE YOU PAID? HOW ARE YOU COMPENSATED? 6 A I SUBMIT AN INVOICE EVERY SIX MONTHS. 7 Q OKAY. IS IT ON AN HOURLY BASIS, FOR EXAMPLE? 8 A YES. 9 Q OKAY. AND JUST FOR THIS CASE TODAY, ARE YOU 10 BEING COMPENSATED FOR THE WORK THAT YOU'VE HAD TO DO IN 11 THE LEROY WHITE MATTER? 12 A NOT YET. 13 Q OKAY. IT'S YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT AT SOME 14 POINT YOU WILL BE? 15 A YES. 16 Q OKAY. CAN YOU TELL ME JUST BECAUSE OF THE 17 LEROY WHITE CASE HOW MUCH TIME YOU'VE HAD TO SPEND 18 CONSULTING FOR UNION CARBIDE? 19 MS. OBERG: A NUMBER OF HOURS? 20 BY MR. JACKSON: 31 Q YEAH, JUST TIMEWISE. 32 A JUST FOR THAT CASE? 23 Q JUST FOR THIS CASE, YEAH. 24 A OH, UP UNTIL NOW PROBABLY A COUPLE OF HOURS. 25 Q OKAY. AND WHAT'S YOUR HOURLY RATE FOR YOUR 9 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 CONSULTING WORK? 2 A $150 AN HOUR. 3 Q OKAY. AND DO YOU ALSO CHARGE FOR YOUR TIME TO 4 TRAVEL? 5 A YES. 6 Q HOW DO YOU CHARGE? 150 AN HOUR? 7 A NO. SEVENTY-FIVE. 8 Q OKAY. AND I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE -- YOU'RE 9 FORM FORMALLY RETIRED, BUT ABOUT HOW MANY HOURS A YEAR 10 OR HOW MUCH TIME A YEAR DO YOU SPEND CONSULTING? 11 A OH, IT VARIES. IT'S RANGED FROM MAYBE 15 HOURS 12 TO FOUR DAYS. SAY TWO WEEKS. 13 Q OKAY. SO WE'RE IN SEPTEMBER OF THIS YEAR. 14 JUST OVER THE LAST YEAR APPROXIMATELY HOW MUCH TIME HAVE 15 YOU SPENT CONSULTING FOR UNION CARBIDE? 16 MS. OBERG: AGAIN, IN HOURS, JUST THE 17 APPROXIMATE NUMBER OF HOURS? 18 BY MR. JACKSON: 19 Q YEAH, JUST TO GIVE ME AN IDEA. IN OTHER WORDS 20 IT'S NOT FULL TIME OBVIOUSLY, BUT I REALLY DON'T KNOW 31 HOW OFTEN YOU'RE DOING IT. SO JUST SAY FROM JANUARY 1 32 TILL TODAY. 23 A THIS YEAR -- WELL, UP UNTIL THIS POINT, I WOULD 24 ESTIMATE ABOUT TWO WEEKS. 25 Q OKAY. ALL RIGHT. I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE 10 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 BAKELITE DIVISION, AND I THINK FOR -- TO MAKE IT A 2 LITTLE EASIER I WAS GOING TO TRY TO CONFINE THE TIME 3 FRAMES OF MY QUESTIONS BASED ON YOUR EMPLOYMENT WITH THE 4 COMPANY. 5 SO THE FIRST PART OF THE QUESTIONING I WANTED 6 TO ASK YOU FROM THE TIME YOU STARTED IN THE BAKELITE DIVISION UNTIL 1960 WHEN YOU BECAME GROUP MANAGER, SO 8 FOR JUST THAT PERIOD OF YOUR CAREER. AT THAT TIME WERE 9 YOU AWARE OF WHAT PRODUCTS THE UNION CARBIDE BAKELITE 10 DIVISION WAS MAKING? 11 A IN WHAT PERIOD OF TIME AGAIN? 12 Q FROM THE TIME YOU STARTED IN '48 UNTIL YOU 13 BECAME A GROUP MANAGERIN 1960. 14 A IN GENERAL, I WAS. 15 Q OKAY. SO JUST THE GENERAL CATEGORY OF 16 PRODUCTS? 17 A YES. 18 Q WHAT WERE THOSE PRODUCTS? 19 A WELL -- AND DURING THAT PERIOD I WAS ASSIGNED 20 TO THE POLYSTYRENE R fi D -- YOU KNOW, FROM *49 TO I 21 THINK '58 TO THE POLYSTYRENE R D AREA, AND I KNEW 22 THOSE PRODUCTS IN -- IN DEPTH. I WAS AWARE OF WHAT WAS 23 GENERALLY BEING MADE IN THE OTHER AREAS BUT NOT IN 24 DEPTH. 25 Q OKAY. SPECIFICALLY BETWEEN '48 AND *60 WERE 11 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 YOU AWARE THAT UNION CARBIDE WAS MAKING SOME PHENOLIC 2 MOLDING MATERIALS PER SB? 3 A YES. 4 Q AND SOME OF THOSE PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS 5 CONTAINED ASBESTOS. IS THAT YOUR UNDERSTANDING? 6 A YES. Q OKAY. DO YOU HAVE ANY INFORMATION TODAY OF WHO 8 THOSE PRODUCTS WERE BEING SOLD TO IN THIS TIME PERIOD, 9 BETWEEN 1948 AND 1960? 10 A NOT WITHOUT LOOKING AT RECORDS. 11 Q OKAY. AND WHEN I SAY "WHO" I MEAN JUST 12 GENERALLY THE TYPES OF CUSTOMERS THAT UNION CARBIDE SOLD 13 THOSE PRODUCTS TO. 14 A TYPES, YES. 15 Q OKAY. GENERALLY WHAT WOULD BE THE CATEGORY OF 16 CUSTOMERS THAT THEY WERE SELLING TO IN THIS TIME FRAME? 17 A WASHING MACHINE AGITATORS, IRON HANDLES, RADIO 18 CABINETS, TELEVISION CABINETS, ELECTRICAL PARTS, KNOBS, 19 POT HANDLES, AUTOMOTIVE PARTS. 20 Q ANYTHING ELSE THAT YOU CAN THINK OF TO ADD TO 21 THAT LIST? 22 A NONE THAT COME TO ME -- TO MIND RIGHT NOW. 23 Q OKAY. SO THE CUSTOMERS WOULD BE THE VARIOUS 24 MANUFACTURERS OF THESE TYPES OF THINGS -- 25 A YES. 12 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 Q -- THAT YOU DESCRIBED? 2 A YES. 3 Q AND YOU UNDERSTOOD WHEN I WAS ASKING YOU ABOUT 4 THAT I WAS ASKING IN PARTICULAR ABOUT PHENOLIC MOLDING 5 MATERIALS? 6 A YES. Q OKAY. IN THAT TIME FRAME, DID THE BAKELITE 8 DIVISION HAVE SOME PROCESS OF KEEPING TRACK OF WHO THEIR 9 CUSTOMERS WERE? 10 A YES. 11 Q AND HOW WAS THAT DONE? WAS IT THROUGH THEIR 12 SALES DIVISION OR A PARTICULAR DIVISION? 13 A YES. 14 MS. OBERG: I'M GOING TO OBJECT. LACKS 15 FOUNDATION. MAY CALL FOR SPECULATION DURING THIS PERIOD 16 OF TIME. 17 IF YOU KNOW WITHIN THE BAKELITE DIVISION HOW 18 THEY TRACKED THEIR MOLDING COMPOUND SALES, GO AHEAD. I 19 MUST WANT TO MAKE SURE WE'RE DEALING WITH PERSONAL 20 KNOWLEDGE HERE. 21 MR. JACKSON: RIGHT. AND I'M GOING TO -- I'M 22 GOING TO TRY AND ESTABLISH THAT FOUNDATION IF I CAN. 23 MS. OBERG: GO AHEAD, PLEASE. 24 BY MR. JACKSON: 25 Q AND KEEP IN MIND RIGHT NOW THE TIME FRAME SO I 13 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 DON'T GET SO BROAD THAT IT'S HARD TO KEEP TRACK. IT'S 2 JUST FROM THE TIME YOU STARTED UNTIL 1960, WHEN YOU 3 BECAME A GROUP MANAGER. 4 SO IN THAT TIME FRAME DID BAKELITE HAVE -- THE 5 BAKELITE DIVISION HAVE SOME SALES DIVISION THAT KEPT 6 TRACK OF WHO THEIR CUSTOMERS WERE? A YES. 8 Q DID YOU KNOW THE INDIVIDUAL WHO WAS IN CHARGE 9 OF THE SALES DIVISION AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME FRAME, *48 10 TO *60? 11 A THERE WERE MANY, BUT THE SPECIFIC NAMES I DON'T 12 RECALL NOW. 13 G HOW ABOUT JUST THE POSITION THAT IT WOULD 14 ENTAIL? WOULD IT BE SALES MANAGER, YOU KNOW? 15 A SALES MANAGER. 16 Q OKAY. DID YOU HAVE ANY INVOLVEMENT WITH THE 17 SALES DEPARTMENT OR THE SALES DIVISION IN THIS TIME IS FRAME, BETWEEN 1948 AND 1960? 19 A FOR -- 20 MS. OBERG: OF -- 21 BY MR. JACKSON: 22 G OF THE BAKELITE DIVISION. 23 A WELL, THE POLYSTYRENE BUSINESS I WAS IN WAS 24 PART OF THE BAKELITE DIVISION. SO -- 2 5 MS. OBERG: JUST BRIEFLY, I THINK YOUR QUESTION 14 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 IS DIRECTED TO MOLDING COMPOUNDS. 2 MR. JACKSON: YEAH. 3 MS. OBERG: SO IF YOU CAN CLARIFY. 4 THE WITNESS: YEAH. 5 MS. OBERG: THE TERM BAKELITE -6 THE WITNESS: YEAH. 7 BY MR. JACKSON: 8 Q IF IT MAKES IT EASIER, DID THE BAKELITE 9 DIVISION HAVE A SALES DIVISION THAT HANDLED THE PHENOLIC 10 MOLDING COMPOUND? 11 A YES, THEY DID. 12 Q OKAY. WERE THE SALES OF THE PHENOLIC MOLDING 13 COMPOUNDS DONE FROM A DIFFERENT SALES DIVISION THAN, FOR 14 INSTANCE,, THE SALES OF THE POLYSTYRENE PRODUCTS? 15 A YES. 16 G OKAY. SO THEY HAD DIFFERENT SALES DEPARTMENTS. 17 A YES. 13 G OKAY. 19 A YOUR QUESTIONING -- ONCE I GOT INTO THE 20 PHENOLIC MOLDING AREA, I HAD ACCESS TO THOSE BACK 21 RECORDS. SO TO -- 22 G I SEE. 23 A -- COMPARTMENTALIZE EVERYTHING IS, YOU KNOW -- 24 IT ISN'T A PURE DIVISION. 23 G OKAY. SO IT SOUNDS LIKE SOME OF YOUR 15 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 UNDERSTANDING OF HOW THE SALES DEPARTMENT OR SALES 2 DIVISION OPERATED YOU LEARNED AT A LATER POINT IN YOUR 3 CAREER. 4 A (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE). 5 Q OKAY. AND YOU SAID THAT WAS WHEN YOU BECAME 6 INVOLVED WITH THE PHENOLIC MOLDING AREA OR DIVISION. 7 A YEAH. 8 Q WAS THAT IN 1959 OR '60? IS THAT -- 9 A IT WAS 1960'S. 10 Q OKAY. SO THEN JUST FOR THIS TIME FRAME I'M 11 GOING TO MOVE INTO THE TIME WHEN YOU GOT INTO THAT 12 DIVISION. BUT BEFORE YOU DID, AT SOME POINT YOU -- YOU 13 LEARNED THAT THERE WAS A SALES DIVISION THAT HANDLED THE 14 PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS; IS THAT CORRECT? 15 A YES. 16 Q AND YOU CAN'T THINK OF ANY NAMES OF THE 17 INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE WORKING IN THE SALES DIVISION 13 DURING THIS TIME FRAME OF THE -- OF THE PHENOLIC MOLDING 10 MATERIALS? 20 A NO. 21 Q CAN YOU GIVE ME AN IDEA OF ABOUT HOW MANY 22 PEOPLE WORKED IN THAT SALES DIVISION DURING THAT TIME 23 FRAME? 24 A I DON'T HAVE AN EXACT FIGURE. 25 Q IN OTHER WORDS, A DOZEN, A HUNDRED -- ANY WAY 16 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 TO GIVE ME A SENSE? 2 A WELL, PEOPLE, YOU KNOW -- YOU'RE TALKING 3 SECRETARIES, SALES PEOPLE, SUPPORT GROUPS. I'M -- I'M 4 NOT -- I CAN'T GIVE YOU AN ACCURATE ANSWER ON THAT. 5 Q OKAY. AND YOU GAVE ME A LIST OF JUST THE TYPES 6 OF CUSTOMERS THAT WERE -- THAT UNION CARBIDE WAS SELLING 7 PHENOLIC MOLDINGS TO DURING THIS TIME FRAME. CAN YOU 8 TELL ME HOW UNION CARBIDE KEPT TRACK OF WHO THOSE 9 CUSTOMERS WERE? 10 A THROUGH THE ORDERS THAT CAME IN FOR THOSE 11 CUSTOMERS. 12 Q OKAY. SO IN OTHER WORDS, A PURCHASE ORDER, IF 13 THE CUSTOMER WAS ACTUALLY PURCHASING MATERIALS -- 14 A YES. 15 Q -- THERE WOULD BE SOME RECORD OF THE PURCHASE 16 ITSELF? 17 A YES. 18 Q OKAY. WOULD THERE BE A SEPARATE WAY TO KEEP 19 TRACK OF WHO CUSTOMERS WERE, FOR INSTANCE, IF A CUSTOMER 20 CAME IN AND ALREADY HAD AN ACCOUNT WITH UNION CARBIDE? 31 MS. OBERG: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR SPECULATION. 32 GO AHEAD. 23 THE WITNESS: AND THEY ALREADY HAD AN ACCOUNT? 24 BY MR. JACKSON: 25 Q WELL, LET ME -- LET ME ASK IT MORE BROADLY. 17 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 OTHER THAN A PURCHASE ORDER WHICH WOULD KEEP TRACK VIA 2 RECORD OF WHAT WAS PURCHASED, WERE THERE ANY OTHER WAYS 3 TO KEEP TRACK OF WHO THE CUSTOMERS WERE FOR THE PHENOLIC 4 MOLDING MATERIALS DURING THIS TIME FRAME? 5 A EACH SALESMAN WAS ASSIGNED A TERRITORY. 6 Q AND I TAKE IT YOU DON'T KNOW THE NAMES OF THE 7 SALESMEN WHO WERE WORKING IN THE SALES DIVISION IN THIS 8 TIME FRAME? AND AGAIN, PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS. 9 A YOU WANT -- 10 Q THE NAMES OF ANY OF THOSE SALESMEN. 11 A SALESMEN? HARRY MC GOWAN. 12 MS. OBERG: THIS IS FOR MOLDING COMPOUNDS; 13 RIGHT? 14 THE WITNESS: YES. 15 MS. OBERG: OKAY. CAN YOU SPELL MC GOWAN, 16 PLEASE. 17 THE WITNESS: M-C-G-O-W-A-N. 18 MS. OBERG: WHO ELSE? 19 THE WITNESS: HAROLD HOLZ. 20 BY MR. JACKSON: 31 Q I'M GOING TO GUESS. H-O-L-T-Z? 32 A H-O-L-Z. 23 Q H-O-L-Z? 24 A YES. 25 Q OKAY. ANYONE ELSE YOU CAN THINK OF? 18 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 A NOT -- NOT AT THIS TIME, NO. 2 Q DO YOU KNOW IF EITHER MR. MC GOWAN OR MR. HOLZ 3 ARE STILL LIVING? 4 A MR. HOLZ IS. I DON'T KNOW IF MR. MCGOWAN IS. 5 Q OKAY. WHERE -- WHEN -- WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME 6 YOU HAD ANY CONTACT WITH MR. HOLZ, SPOKE TO HIM OR SAW 7 HIM, SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES? 8 A ABOUT A YEAR AGO. 9 Q AND WHERE WAS HE LIVING AT THAT TIME? 10 A CONNECTICUT. 11 Q DO YOU KNOW WHERE IN CONNECTICUT? 12 A NO. 13 Q AND WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW 14 MR. MC GOWAN? 15 A OH, 30, 40 YEARS AGO. 16 Q OKAY. SO THE SALESMEN WOULD ACTUALLY BE 17 ASSIGNED IT A TERRITORY AND WOULD DEAL WITH CUSTOMERS : 13 PARTICULAR TERRITORIES? 19 A YES. 20 Q DO YOU KNOW IF THE SALESMEN KEPT INDEPENDENT 21 RECORDS, FOR INSTANCE, LISTS OF WHO THEIR CUSTOMERS 22 WERE? 23 A YES, THEY DID. 24 Q OKAY. WOULD THERE BE A WAY TO IDENTIFY THOSE 25 RECORDS, LIKE THE CATEGORY OF THEM? CUSTOMER LISTS, 19 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES? 2 A THEY WOULD BE CUSTOMER REPORTS. 3 Q CUSTOMER REPORTS. AND OTHER THAN PURCHASE 4 ORDERS OR CUSTOMER REPORTS FROM THE SALESMEN, ARE THERE 5 ANY OTHER DOCUMENTS THAT YOU WOULD IDENTIFY THAT WOULD 6 IDENTIFY WHO CUSTOMERS WERE FOR PHENOLIC MOLDING 7 MATERIALS DURING THIS TIME FRAME? 8 A SHIPPING RECORDS. 9 Q OKAY. SO AFTER SOMEBODY PURCHASED MATERIALS 10 AND IT WAS SHIPPED, THERE MAY BE A RECORD KEPT OF THE 11 SHIPPING OF THE MATERIALS OUT? 12 A YES. 18 Q ANY OTHER TYPES OF RECORDS THAT YOU CAN THINK 14 OF THAT WOULD IDENTIFY WHO THE CUSTOMERS WERE? 15 A THE DEPARTMENT THAT BILLED AND COLLECTED 16 PAYMENTS. THE NAMES OF THOSE DEPARTMENTS CHANGED 17 PERIODICALLY, BUT THEY DID THE SAME THING. 13 Q OKAY. SO BILLING RECORDS -- 19 A RIGHT. 20 Q -- KEPT TRACK OF GETTING PAID? 21 A YEAH. 22 Q ALL RIGHT. LET ME SEE IF I COULD ASK THIS 23 CATEGORICALLY. DO YOU KNOW IF UNION CARBIDE STILL 24 MAINTAINS BILLING RECORDS FROM THIS TIME PERIOD BETWEEN 25 1948 AND 1960? 20 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 MS. OBERG: OBJECTION. JUST TO PRESERVE THE 2 RECORD, OVERLY BROAD, LACKS FOUNDATION. 3 GO AHEAD IF YOU KNOW. 4 THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW. 5 BY MR. JACKSON: 6 Q OKAY. DO YOU KNOW IF THEY STILL MAINTAIN ANY 7 SHIPS RECORDS FROM THOSE TIME FRAMES? 8 MS. OBERG: SAME OBJECTIONS. 9 GO AHEAD. 10 THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW. 11 BY MR. JACKSON: 12 Q HOW ABOUT THE CUSTOMER REPORTS? DO YOU KNOW IF 13 THOSE ARE STILL MAINTAINED? 14 MS. OBERG: SAME OBJECTIONS. 15 THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW. 16 MS. OBERG: WE'RE TALKING '48 TO '60; CORRECT? 17 MR. JACKSON: RIGHT. 18 Q AND HOW ABOUT THE PURCHASE ORDERS? 19 MS. OBERG: SAME OBJECTIONS. 20 THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW. 31 BY MR. JACKSON: 32 Q OKAY. OKAY. ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY RECORDS THAT 23 UNION CARBIDE MAINTAINS THAT WOULD IDENTIFY WHO THEIR 24 CUSTOMERS WERE FOR THEIR PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS IN 25 THIS TIME FRAME? 21 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 MS. OBERG: SAME OBJECTION. 2 THE WITNESS: ANY RECORDS OTHER THAN WHAT I 3 HAVE JUST GIVEN YOU? 4 BY MR. JACKSON: 5 Q RIGHT. 6 A YEAH. 7 Q IN OTHER WORDS, IS THERE SOMETHING ELSE THAT 8 YOU WOULD THINK OF THAT WOULD SHOW WHO CUSTOMERS WERE 9 DURING THIS TIME FRAME THAT WE HAVEN'T DISCUSSED? 10 A MANUFACTURING WOULD KEEP SOME RECORDS. 11 MS. OBERG: CARLO, LISTEN TO THE QUESTION. 12 IT'S WHETHER YOU'RE AWARE OF ANY RECORDS THAT EXIST 13 TODAY. 14 THE WITNESS: OH, EXIST TODAY. 15 MR. JACKSON: RIGHT. 16 MS. OBERG: YES, IF YOU KNOW THAT. 17 THE WITNESS: THAT EXIST TODAY, I DON'T KNOW. IS BY MR. JACKSON: 19 Q YEAH. IT SOUNDS LIKE THERE WAS -- YOU WERE 20 THINKING, STEP 1, WERE THERE ANY TYPES OF RECORDS 31 GENERATED AT THAT TIME -- 32 A YEAH. 23 Q -- THAT WOULD SHOW WHO CUSTOMERS WERE. 24 A YEAH. 25 Q AND YOU MENTIONED MANUFACTURING WOULD KEEP SOME 22 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 RECORDS. WHAT TYPES OF RECORDS ARE YOU REFERRING TO? 2 A FORMULATIONS AND -- WITH SOME OF THE CUSTOMERS 3 TO WHOM THEY WOULD BE SHIPPED. 4 Q OKAY. SO IF A FORMULATION WAS DONE FOR A -- 5 WITH A PARTICULAR CUSTOMER IN MIND, IT ACTUALLY MAY SHOW 6 UP ON THAT TYPE OF A DOCUMENT? 7 A YES. 8 Q OKAY. DO YOU KNOW IF FORMULATION -- RECORDS OF 9 FORMULATIONS FROM THAT TIME FRAME WHICH MIGHT SHOW WHO 10 THE CUSTOMERS WERE, IF THOSE STILL EXIST? 11 A SOME DO, YES. 12 MS. OBERG: '48 TO '60. 13 THE WITNESS: YES, SOME DO. 14 MS. OBERG: OKAY. 15 BY MR. JACKSON: 16 Q OKAY. I'M GOING TO KIND OF GO THROUGH THE SAME 17 SET OF QUESTIONS FOR THE NEXT TIME PERIOD WHICH I'M 13 GOING TO START AS 1960, WHEN YOU BECAME A GROUP MANAGER. 10 AND THAT WAS IN THE PHENOLIC MOLDINGS DEPARTMENT; IS 20 THAT RIGHT? 31 A YES. 22 Q OKAY. 23 A OF R D. 24 Q OKAY. OF THE BAKELITE DIVISION; RIGHT? 25 A YEAH. 23 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 Q UNTIL 1970, WHEN YOU BECAME A SENIOR GROUP 2 MANAGER? 3 A YES. 4 Q OKAY. I EARLIER ASKED YOU ABOUT WHO THE 5 CUSTOMERS WERE -- WELL, STRIKE THAT. LET'S BACK UP TO 6 THE STEP 1. THE PRODUCTS THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT THAT 7 UNION CARBIDE BAKELITE DIVISION WAS SELLING IN '48 TO 8 '60, ARE THOSE THE SAME PRODUCTS THAT THEY SOLD IN 1960 9 TO 1970 TIME FRAME? 10 A SOME WERE, AND SOME WERE NOT. 11 Q OKAY. WERE THEY STILL SELLING PHENOLIC MOLDING 12 MATERIALS IN THAT TIME FRAME -- 13 A YES. 14 Q -- 1960 TO 1970? 15 A YES. 16 Q OKAY. THE TYPES OF CUSTOMERS THAT THEY SOLD 17 THOSE MATERIALS TO, ARE THOSE CUSTOMERS THE SAME AS YOU 13 DESCRIBED EARLIER FROM THE 1948 TO 1960 TIME FRAME? 19 A THERE WERE CHANGES. 20 Q OKAY. JUST TELL ME GENERALLY WHAT YOU MEAN 21 WHEN YOU SAY THERE WERE CHANGES? 22 A WELL, SOME OF THE APPLICATIONS WERE CONVERTED 23 TO THERMOPLASTIC MATERIALS. 24 Q BUT THE -- SOME OF THOSE PHENOLIC MOLDING 25 MATERIALS STILL DID HAVE ASBESTOS IN THIS TIME FRAME, 24 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 1960 TO 1970? 2 A YES, THEY DID. 3 Q AND WHO WERE THECUSTOMERS GENERALLY OF THOSE 4 TYPES OF MATERIALS? 5 A GENERALLY ELECTRICAL PARTS MANUFACTURERS. 6 ANY -- SOME AUTOMOTIVE PARTS REQUIRED HIGH-TEMPERATURE USE. POT HANDLES, OVEN PARTS, TOASTER PANELS. 8 Q ANYTHING ELSE THAT YOU WOULD ADD TO THAT LIST? 9 A MANY ELECTRICAL PARTS, BUT IT REQUIRED 10 HIGH-TEMPERATURE RESISTANCE. 11 Q AND AGAIN, THE CUSTOMERS WOULD BE THE 12 MANUFACTURERS OF THESE VARIOUS PRODUCTS? 13 A YES. 14 Q OKAY. HOW ABOUT AUTOMOTIVE PARTS DURING THIS 15 TIME FRAME BETWEEN 1960 TO 1970? WOULD YOU SAY THAT 16 MANUFACTURERS OF AUTOMOTIVE PARTS WERE CUSTOMERS OF THE 17 BAKELITE DIVISION WITH RESPECT TO PHENOLIC MOLDING 18 MATERIALS? 19 A YES. 20 Q OKAY. AND THE PROCESS OF KEEPING TRACK OF THE 21 CUSTOMERS DURING THIS TIME FRAME, WAS IT ANY DIFFERENT 22 FROM WHAT YOU DESCRIBED EARLIER? 23 A NO. 24 Q OKAY. CAN YOU THINK OF ANY INDIVIDUALS WHO 25 WERE WITH THE SALES DIVISION RESPONSIBLE FOR THE 25 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS IN THE 1960 TO 1970 TIME 2 FRAME? 3 A IN WHAT DEPARTMENT? 4 Q SALES DEPARTMENT THAT WOULD HAVE HANDLED THE 5 PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS. 6 A THE DIRECTOR OF SALES WOULD -- THERE WERE A 7 NUMBER. JOE RODGERS. SALES MANAGER WAS CHARLIE NAYLOR. 8 Q I'M SORRY. WHAT WAS -- 9 A NAYLOR, N-A-Y-L-O-R. BOB SHERMAN WAS AN 10 ASSISTANT SALES MANAGER. PETER POTTER WAS MARKETING 11 MANAGER. WALT DE FABER WAS IN THOSE DEPARTMENTS DOING A 12 VARIETY OF SALES ACTIVITIES. RAY URBAN WAS A MANAGER IN 13 THAT AREA LATER IN THE '60S. 14 Q ARE YOU SAYING IRVIN? 15 A URBAN, U-R-B-A-N. ED KRUMMEL, K-R-U-M-M-E-L. 16 Q ANYONE ELSE YOU CAN THINK OF? 17 A PARDON? 18 MS. OBERG: BRUCE, HE DIDN'T HEAR YOU. WHAT -- 19 BY MR. JACKSON: 20 Q I'M SORRY. I HAVE A SOFT VOICE SOMETIMES. 31 ANYONE ELSE YOU CAN THINK OF FROM THE SALES DEPARTMENT 32 IN THIS TIME FRAME, 1960 TO 1970? 23 A THOSE WERE THE PRINCIPAL PLAYERS. 24 Q OKAY. 25 A THERE WERE OTHERS, BUT THEY DON'T COME TO MIND 26 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 RIGHT NOW. 2 Q OKAY. SO EACH OF THE INDIVIDUALSTHAT YOU JUST 3 MENTIONED ARE PEOPLE THAT YOU REMEMBER HOLDING SOME 4 POSITION IN THE SALES DIVISION THAT WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR 5 SELLING PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS IN THIS TIME FRAME, 6 1960 TO 1970? 7 A YES. 8 Q OKAY. DO YOU KNOW IF MR. NAYLOR IS STILL 9 LIVING? 10 A YES. 11 Q DO YOU KNOW WHEREABOUTS HE LIVES? 12 A NO. 13 Q OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHAT STATE? 14 A NO. 15 Q WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU HAD ANY KIND OF 16 CONTACT WITH MR. NAYLOR? 17 A I SAW HIS NAME ON AN E-MAIL JUST RECENTLY -- 18 Q OKAY. 19 A -- TO AN ASSOCIATE OF MINE. HE WASCOPIED ON 20 IT. 21 Q IN OTHER WORDS, IS HE STILL EMPLOYED BYUNION 22 CARBIDE? 23 A OH, NO. 24 Q OKAY. 25 A NO. 27 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 Q WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SPOKE TO HIM OR SAW 2 HIM? 3 A 1960'S. 4 Q BOB SHERMAN. DO YOU KNOW IF MR. SHERMAN IS 5 STILL ALIVE? 6 A YES, HE IS. 7 Q AND DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE LIVES? 8 A NO, I DON'T. 9 Q WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SPOKE TO HIM OR SAW 10 HIM? 11 A ABOUT TWO YEARS AGO. 12 Q AT THAT TIME DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE WAS LIVING? 13 A YES. 14 Q WHERE WAS THAT? 15 A OH, I'M SORRY. YES, I DID. I CALLED HIM, BUT 16 I DON'T REMEMBER NOW THE LOCATION. 17 Q DO YOU REMEMBER THE STATE THAT HE LIVED IN? 13 A I'D HAVE TO GUESS. NO. 10 Q OKAY. HOW ABOUT -- 20 MS. OBERG: DON'T GUESS. 31 THE WITNESS: NO. 22 BY MR. JACKSON: 23 Q THAT'S FINE. I DISPENSED WITH THE ADMONITIONS 24 FOR TIME'S SAKE, BUT I WOULD JUST ADD, ONE, I ONLY WANT 25 YOUR BEST ESTIMATE. 28 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 A OKAY. 2 Q AND IF YOU'RE GUESSING, LET ME KNOWTHAT. 3 A YEAH. 4 Q TWO, IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ONE OF MY 5 QUESTIONS, JUST LET ME KNOW,AND I'LL REPHRASE IT. 6 A SURE. 7 Q I'M GOING TO ASSUME, IF YOU ANSWERED MY 8 QUESTION, THAT YOUUNDERSTOOD IT. 9 A OKAY. 10 Q SO IF YOU DON'T, JUST LET ME KNOW. 11 A SURE. 12 Q ALL RIGHT. PETER POTTER, DOYOU KNOW IF HE'S 13 STILL ALIVE? 14 A YES, HE IS. 15 Q DO YOU KNOW WHERE MR. POTTER LIVES? 16 A IN CONNECTICUT. 17 Q DO YOU KNOW WHEREIN CONNECTICUT? IB A NO. 19 Q DO YOU KNOW IF HE'S STILL EMPLOYED BY UNION 20 CARBIDE? 31 A NO. 32 Q NO, HE'S NOT? 23 A HE'S -- 24 Q NO, HE'S NOT. 3 5 A NOT, NO. 29 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 Q WALT DE FABER. DO YOU KNOW IF MR. DE FABER IS 2 STILL LIVING? 3 A YES, HE IS. 4 Q AND DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE LIVES? 5 A NO, I DON'T. 6 Q WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SPOKE TO HIM? 7 A ABOUT TWO YEARS AGO. 8 Q AT THAT TIME DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE WAS LIVING? 9 A NO, I DON'T. 10 Q AND DO YOU KNOW IF HE IS STILL EMPLOYED BY 11 UNION CARBIDE? 12 A HE IS NOT. 13 Q OKAY. RAY URBAN, DO YOU KNOW IF HE IS STILL 14 LIVING? 15 A I DON'T KNOW. 16 Q WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SPOKE TO MR. URBAN? 17 A IN THE '60S. IS Q ED KRUMMEL, DO YOU KNOW IF HE'S STILL LIVING? 19 A NO. HE'S DEAD. 20 Q DECEASED. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. SO GENERALLY YOU 31 MENTIONED THAT THE PROCESS OF KEEPING TRACK OF CUSTOMERS 32 IN THIS TIME FRAME FROM 1960 TO 1970 WAS ESSENTIALLY THE 23 SAME AS WHAT YOU'D PREVIOUSLY DESCRIBED FOR THE EARLIER 24 TIME FRAME? 25 A EXCEPT FOR THE -- YOU KNOW, THE IMPROVEMENTS 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 IN -- IN KEEPING RECORDS AND SO FORTH, YEAH. 2 Q OKAY. 3 A STEAMLINING THE OPERATION, YOU KNOW, IT WAS 4 BASICALLY THE SAME. 5 Q FOR EXAMPLE, ARE THERE ANY PURCHASE ORDERS THAT 6 EXIST DURING THIS TIME FRAME, IF YOU KNOW, THAT WOULD IDENTIFY WHO ANY OF THE CUSTOMERS WERE OF THE PHENOLIC 8 MOLDING MATERIALS? 9 MS. OBERG: YOU'RE TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT 10 PURCHASE ORDERS -- 11 MR. JACKSON: RIGHT. 12 MS. OBERG: -- THAT EXIST. 13 ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY? 14 THE WITNESS: OF ANY -- 15 MS. OBERG: PURCHASE ORDERS. 16 THE WITNESS: ANY SYSTEM THAT'S IN PLACE? 17 MS. OBERG: NO. ARE YOU AWARE -- 18 COULD YOU ASK THE QUESTION, BRUCE. 19 THE WITNESS: YEAH. 20 BY MR. JACKSON: 21 Q IN THIS TIME FRAME, 1960 TO 1970, I TAKE IT 22 THERE WAS A SYSTEM IN PLACE WHERE THERE WOULD BE 23 PURCHASE ORDERS KEPT WHEN CUSTOMERS PURCHASED MATERIALS 24 FROM -- FROM THE BAKELITE DIVISION. 25 A YES. 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 Q DO YOU KNOW IF THERE ARE PURCHASE ORDERS THAT 2 STILL EXIST TODAY FOR PURCHASES MADE OF PHENOLIC MOLDING 3 MATERIALS IN 1960 TO 1970 TIME FRAME? 4 A I'VE SEEN SOME, BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW OLD THEY 5 WERE. I -- I'VE SEEN SOME. 6 Q OKAY. HOW ABOUT SHIPPING RECORDS? DO YOU KNOW 7 IF THERE ARE SHIPPING RECORDS THAT EXIST TODAY THAT SHOW 8 SHIPMENTS OF PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS TO CUSTOMERS? 9 A THE SALES RECORDS WOULD SHOW THAT, YES, AND 10 THEY EXIST. 11 MS. OBERG: SHIPPING RECORDS? 12 THE WITNESS: WOULD SHOW THAT THE CUSTOMER IB PURCHASED. 14 BY MR. JACKSON: 15 Q OKAY. 16 A I'M -- IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT? 17 MS. OBERG: OKAY. SO TO BE SPECIFIC, HE'S 13 ASKING YOU TO BREAK DOWN THE KIND OF RECORDS -- 10 THE WITNESS: YEAH. 20 MS. OBERG: -- AND TELL US WHETHER OR NOT THOSE 21 RECORDS EXIST TODAY. SPECIFICALLY, DO SHIPPING RECORDS 22 EXIST -- 23 THE WITNESS: SHIP -- 24 MS. OBERG: -- FOR THAT TIME PERIOD? 25 THE WITNESS: SHIPPING RECORDS, I DON'T KNOW. 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 BY MR. JACKSON: 2 Q OKAY. AND IN RESPONDING TO MY QUESTION, YOU 3 HAD KIND OF DESCRIBED A DIFFERENT CATEGORY OF DOCUMENTS, 4 AND YOU SAID SALES RECORDS. WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHEN YOU 5 SAY SALES RECORDS? 6 A RECORDS OF HOW MUCH MATERIAL WAS SOLD TO A PARTICULAR CUSTOMER IN EACH MONTH. 8 Q OKAY. 9 A NOW, I'M SORRY. THAT'S WHAT I WAS THINKING IN 10 TERMS OF SHIPPING RECORDS. 11 Q ALL RIGHT. SO JUST TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THOSE 12 TYPES OF RECORDS ARE: FOR CUSTOMERS WHO PURCHASED 13 PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS FROM UNION CARBIDE IN THIS 14 TIME FRAME, UNION CARBIDE KEPT SALES RECORDS WHICH WOULD 15 SHOW HOW MUCH EACH MONTH A PARTICULAR CUSTOMER WAS 16 PURCHASING? 17 A YES. 18 Q OKAY. AND THOSE SALES RECORDS STILL EXIST 19 TODAY, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, AT LEAST FOR SOME TIME PERIOD? 20 A YES. 21 Q CAN YOU TELL ME FOR WHAT TIME PERIOD THEY STILL 22 EXIST TODAY, IN OTHER WORDS, GOING HOW FAR BACK? 23 A OH, I'VE SEEN SOMEBACK INTO THE '60S. 24 Q AND CANYOU TELL ME IFUNION CARBIDE CAN -- HAS 25 COMPLETE SETS OF SALES RECORDS FOR THEIR PHENOLIC 33 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 MOLDING MATERIALS GOING THAT FAR BACK? 2 MS. OBERG: IF -- IF YOU KNOW. 3 BY MR. JACKSON: 4 Q IN OTHER WORDS, YOU SAID YOU'VE SEEN SOME. 5 MS. OBERG: YEAH. 6 BY MR. JACKSON: Q IS THERE ANY WAY TO TELL ME WHETHER OR NOT THAT 8 WOULD BE A COMPLETE SET OF THE SALES RECORDS? 9 MS. OBERG: I'M JUST - 10 MR. JACKSON: THAT'S ALL RIGHT. I JUST WANT TO 11 MAKE SURE IT'S ON THERECORD. I KNOW YOU HAVE AN 12 OBJECTION. 13 Q I JUST WANT TO KNOW IF, WHEN YOU SAY YOU'VE 14 SEEN SOME, YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE IF THIS IS A COMPLETE 15 SET OF SALES RECORDS FOR PHENOLIC RESIN MATERIALS GOING 16 THAT FAR BACK. 17 MS. OBERG: PHENOLIC RESINS OR PHENOLIC MOLDING 18 COMPOUNDS? SORRY. IT'S GOT TO BE PRECISE. 19 MR. JACKSON:PHENOLIC MOLDINGCOMPOUNDS. 20 THE WITNESS: THEY APPEARED COMPLETE TO ME. 21 MS. OBERG: NOW I'M GOING TO PUT IN A BELATED 22 OBJECTION THAT IT CALLS FORSPECULATION. 23 DO YOU HAVE PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF WHETHER OR 24 NOT RECORDS THAT YOU HAVE SEEN ARE COMPLETE? DO YOU 25 KNOW, CARLO? DO YOU KNOW THAT THEY'RE COMPLETE? 34 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 THE WITNESS: I CAN'T SAY WITH A HUNDRED 2 PERCENT CERTAINTY -- 3 MS. OBERG: OKAY. 4 THE WITNESS: -- IF THEY ARE COMPLETE. 5 MS. OBERG: OKAY. 6 BY MR. JACKSON: 7 Q ALL RIGHT. SO I JUST WANT TO KNOW, THEN, WHEN 8 YOU SAY THEY APPEARED -- APPEAR COMPLETE, WHAT DO YOU -- 9 WHY DO YOU SAY THAT? 10 A I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING THAT WAS MISSING, A 11 MISSING PAGE OR -- THAT WOULD LEAD ME TO BELIEVE THAT 12 THERE WAS MORE INFORMATION THAT HAD BEEN LOST. 13 Q OKAY. BUT YOU CAN'T SAY -- 14 A BUT I CAN'T -- 15 Q I'M SORRY. 16 A I CAN'T SAY, YOU KNOW, "I'VE SEEN ALL THE 17 RECORDS. THEY'RE A HUNDRED PERCENT COMPLETE." 13 MS. OBERG: RIGHT. 10 BY MR. JACKSON: 20 Q I UNDERSTAND. 21 A I MEAN THAT WAS NOT MY DEPARTMENT. 22 Q OKAY. 23 A I WAS IN R D. 24 Q OKAY. I UNDERSTAND. AND SO YOU CAN'T SAY WITH 25 100 PERCENT CERTAINTY. YOU'RE JUST DESCRIBING WHAT YOUR 35 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 OBSERVATION WAS. 2 A THAT'S RIGHT. 3 Q BUT IN ANY EVENT,THE TIME FRAME THAT THESE 4 DOCUMENTS DATE BACK WOULD BE SOMETIME IN THE '60S. 5 A YES. 6 Q WOULD THAT BE EARLY '60S, MID '60S, LATE '60S? 7 ANY WAY TO GIVE ME A SENSE? 8 A I HAVEN'T SEEN ALL OF THEM, BUT I AM AWARE THAT 9 THEY GO BACK AS FAR AS THE '60 -- 1960. 10 Q NOW, EARLIER YOUHAD SPOKEN THAT MANUFACTURING 11 WOULD KEEP -- KEEP SOME RECORDS THAT -- THAT MAY SHOW 12 WHO A CUSTOMER IS OF A PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIAL; 13 CORRECT? 14 A YES. 15 Q I TAKE IT THAT PROCESS CONTINUED BETWEEN THE 16 1960 AND 1970 -- 17 A YES. 18 Q -- PERIOD. DO YOU KNOW IF THERE ARE ANY 19 RECORDS FROM THE MANUFACTURING THAT WOULD SHOW WHO 20 CLIENTS WERE OR CUSTOMERS WERE OF PHENOLIC MOLDING 21 MATERIALS? 22 A YES. 23 Q OKAY. AND DO YOU KNOW HOW FAR BACK THOSE 24 RECORDS GO? 25 A I'VE SEEN SOME RECORDS GO BACK AS FAR AS 36 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 1930 TS. 2 Q OKAY. AND ARB THEY -- TO WHAT EXTENT ARE THEY 3 COMPLETE RECORDS DATING THAT FAR BACK? 4 MS. OBERG: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR SPECULATION. 5 LACKS FOUNDATION. OVERLY BROAD. THAT REALLY DOES GO 6 WAY BEYOND THISNOTICE. BY MR. JACKSON: 8 Q WELL, I WANT -- I*M GOING TO, FIRST OF ALL, 9 TELL YOU WHERE I'M GOING. AT SOME POINT I WANT TO ASK 10 YOU WHAT YOU'VE DONE TO BECOME KNOWLEDGEABLE, AND PART 11 OF THAT IS GOING TO BE WHAT RECORDS HAVE YOU LOOKED AT 12 AND ARE THERE RECORDS AVAILABLE THAT YOU DID OR DID NOT 13 LOOK AT. 14 SO ONE OF THE THINGS I'M JUST TRYING TO KIND OF 15 FIGURE OUT NOW IS WHAT RECORDS ARE THERE THAT EXIST THAT 16 WOULD HELP YOU IDENTIFY WHO CUSTOMERS WERE OF THESE 17 TYPES OF MATERIALS, PHENOLIC MOLDINGMATERIALS. AND ONE 18 OF THE THINGSTHAT YOU MENTIONED IS THAT MANUFACTURING 19 KEPT SOME OF THESE RECORDS, AND I JUST WANT TO GET A 20 SENSE OF HOW COMPLETE THOSE RECORDS WOULD BE, IF YOU 21 KNOW. 22 A THOSEWOULD NOT BE COMPLETE. 23 Q OKAY. ARE THE BEST RECORDS TO -- TOCONSIDER 24 IN TERMS OF FIGURING OUT WHO CUSTOMERS WERE DURING THIS 25 TIME FRAME THE SALES RECORDS THAT WE'VE TALKED ABOUT -- 37 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 A YES. 2 Q -- THAT YOUMENTIONED? 3 OKAY. ARE THERE ANY OTHER KINDS OF RECORDS 4 THAT -- THAT STILL EXIST TODAY, AS FAR AS YOU KNOW, THAT 5 WOULD IDENTIFY WHO CUSTOMERS WERE OF THE PHENOLIC 6 MOLDING MATERIALS IN THIS TIME FRAME, 1960 TO 1970, OTHER THAN WHAT YOU'VE ALREADY TOLD ME ABOUT? 8 A NO. 9 Q OKAY. I THINK THAT MAKES IT EASIER. 10 A LET ME BACK UP ON THAT A MINUTE. NOW, YOU'RE 11 TALKING ABOUT LISTS. THERE'S CORRESPONDENCE AND THAT 12 SORT OF THING OR -- 13 Q HERB -- TOSIMPLIFY THIS, IF YOU WERE 14 INTERESTED IN DETERMINING WHO THE CUSTOMERS WERE FOR 15 PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS IN THE 1960 TO 1970 TIME 16 FRAME, ARE THERE ANY OTHER TYPES OF RECORDS THAT YOU 17 COULD LOOK AT WHICH EXIST TODAY OTHER THAN WHAT WE'VE 18 ALREADY SPOKEN ABOUT? 19 A FIRST PLACE I WOULD GO IS THE SALES RECORDS. 20 Q OKAY. OKAY. NOW, IN THE -- IN 1970 YOU BECAME 21 A SENIOR -- WELL, 1970, WHAT WAS YOUR JOB POSITION? 22 MS. OBERG: 1970, WHAT WAS YOUR JOB? 23 THE WITNESS: IT STAYED THE SAME. 24 BY MR. JACKSON: 25 Q OKAY. DID YOU -- 38 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 A THAT WAS JUST A GRADE PROMOTION. 2 Q YEAH. THEY TOLD MB THAT WHEN I BECAME A SENIOR 3 ATTORNEY. 4 A THEY HAVE THAT IN LAW. 5 Q IT'S THE SAME. SO YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES AND 6 YOUR POSITION WERE THE SAME AS GROUP MANAGER. YOU WERE SIMPLY REFERRED TO AS A SENIOR GROUP MANAGER AT THAT 8 TIME? 9 A (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE). 10 Q OKAY. AND AT SOME POINT THE BAKELITE DIVISION 11 CEASED TO EXIST; IS THAT CORRECT? 12 A WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "CEASED TO EXIST"? 13 Q HOW ABOUT THIS: HOW LONG DID YOU REMAIN 14 WORKING IN THE BAKELITE DIVISION OF UNION CARBIDE? 15 A IT WAS CONSIDERED -- EVEN THE THERMOPLASTIC 16 AREA WAS CONSIDERED PART OF THE BAKELITE DIVISION. 17 Q OKAY. AND HOW LONG DID YOU STAY WITH THE 18 BAKELITE DIVISION, GIVEN THAT? 19 A THE BAKELITE DIVISION AT SOME POINT JUST 20 BECAME -- IT WAS A DIVISION OFUNION CARBIDE. THERE 21 WERE ORGANIZATIONAL CHANGES THATOCCURRED DURING THE 22 '60S WHERE UNION CARBIDE BECAME THE PREDOMINANT WAY OF 23 REFERRING TO THE COMPANY RATHER THAN CONTINUING ASTHE 24 BAKELITE DIVISION. 25 IT NO LONGER WAS CALLED A DIVISION, AND I -- I 39 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 DON'T RECALL ALL THE DETAILS AS TO HOW THESE NAME 2 CHANGES TOOK PLACE AND -- AND LEGALLY WHAT THE COMPANY 3 BECAME. 4 Q OKAY. MAYBE I COULD ASK IT THIS WAY. AS OF 5 1970, WAS UNION CARBIDE THROUGH THEIR BAKELITE DIVISION 6 STILL SELLING PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS? 7 A YES. 8 Q AND SOME OF THOSE MATERIALS STILL HAD ASBESTOS 9 AS A COMPONENT OF THEM? 10 A IN THE 1970'S? 11 MS. OBERG: NINETEEN -- 12 BY MR. JACKSON: 13 Q AS OF 1970. I'M GOING TO ASK YOU WHEN THAT 14 STOPPED. 15 A OKAY. 16 Q THE STARTING POINT FOR THIS TIME FRAME WOULD BE 17 1970. 13 A YES. 10 Q WHEN DID THAT -- HOW LONG DID THAT CONTINUE? 20 A WE WENT OUT OF THE BUSINESS IN 1975. 21 G OKAY. 22 MS. OBERG: NOW -- 23 BY MR. JACKSON: 24 Q THAT'S WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR. 25 MS. OBERG: NOW, WAIT A SECOND. OKAY. 40 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 MR. JACKSON: YOU WANT ME TO ASK THE SAME 2 QUESTION -- MS. OBERG: YOU ASK THE QUESTION. GO AHEAD. 4 MR. JACKSON: -- JUST TO SEE IF YOU HAVE 5 ANYTHING TO -- ANY EXPLANATION TO ADD TO THIS? 6 Q HOW LONG DID UNION CARBIDE THROUGH THEIR BAKELITE DIVISION CONTINUE TO SELL PHENOLIC MOLDING 8 MATERIALS THAT HAD ASBESTOS IN THEM, IF YOU KNOW? 9 A UP UNTIL 1975 BUT IN REDUCED QUANTITIES. 10 Q OKAY. BUT IT WAS AS -- AS FAR AS YOU KNOW, 11 THEY LAST SOLD THOSE TYPES OF MATERIALS AS OF 1975? 12 A YES. 13 Q OKAY. AND IN THE 1970 TO 1975 TIME FRAME, WERE 14 THE CUSTOMERS OF THOSE MATERIALS ANY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT 15 YOU'VE DESCRIBED ALREADY FOR ME? 16 A YES, BECAUSE THEAPPLICATIONS CHANGED. 17 Q OKAY. HOW SO? 18 A THE MORE PHENOLIC -- MORE PARTS THAT HAD BEEN 19 MADE OUT OF PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS WERE BEING 20 CONVERTED OVER TO HIGH-PERFORMANCE THERMOPLASTICS. 21 Q OKAY. BUT AS FAR AS THEPHENOLIC MOLDING 22 MATERIALS THAT STILL HAD ASBESTOS AS A COMPONENT, WHO 23 WERE THE CUSTOMERS GENERALLY OF THOSE MATERIALS IN THIS 24 *70 TO '75 TIME FRAME? 25 A THOSE THAT STILL REQUIRED PHENOLIC MOLDING 41 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 MATERIALS WOULD HAVE BEEN SIMILAR TO THE ONES THAT WE 2 HAD IN THE '60S. 3 Q OKAY. WOULD THEY STILL INCLUDE MANUFACTURERS 4 OF VARIOUS AUTOMOTIVE PARTS? 5 A YES. 6 Q AND IN TERMS OF KEEPING TRACK OF CUSTOMERS IN THIS TIME FRAME, WAS IT ANY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT YOU'VE 8 ALREADY DESCRIBED FOR THE PREVIOUS TIME FRAMES? 9 A COMPUTERIZATION TOOK PLACE IN THE '60S AND 10 CONTINUED TO EVOLVE INTO THE '70S. 11 Q OKAY. BUT IN TERMS OF THE TYPES OF RECORDS 12 THAT WOULD EXIST TODAY THAT YOU COULD -- THAT WOULD 13 IDENTIFY CUSTOMERS OF THE PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS 14 THAT HAD ASBESTOS IN THEM UP UNTIL '75, ARE THOSE TYPES 15 OF RECORDS THE SAME AS WHAT YOU'VE ALREADY DESCRIBED? 16 A YES. 17 Q SO THE BEST RECORDS TO LOOK FOR WOULD BE THE 18 SALES RECORDS? 19 A YES. 20 Q ANY OTHER TYPES OF RECORDS ASIDE FROM THE SALES 21 RECORDS THAT YOU'RE AWARE OF THAT EXIST TODAY THAT YOU 22 COULD REFER TO TODETERMINE WHO THECUSTOMERS WERE OF 23 THE PHENOLIC MOLDINGMATERIALS IN THIS TIMEFRAME, *70 24 TO '75? 25 A ONLY THEONES I'VE ALREADY GIVEN YOU. 42 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 Q OKAY. AND IN TERMS OF THE NAMES OF ANY OF THE 2 PERSONS THAT WERE INVOLVED WITH THE SALES DEPARTMENT IN 3 THIS TIME FRAME THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR 4 SALE OF THESE PARTICULAR KINDS OF PRODUCTS, PHENOLIC 5 MOLDING MATERIALS, ARE THERE ANY NAMES OTHER THAN 6 WHAT -- THE GENTLEMEN NAMES -- OTHER THAN WHAT THE NAMES 7 YOU'VE ALREADY GIVEN ME? 8 A THERE WERE CHANGES IN THE SALES DEPARTMENT THAT 9 WERE MADE IN THAT PERIOD, BUT I DON'T RECALL THE -- THE 10 NAMES OF THE NEW PEOPLE THAT CAME IN. 11 Q OKAY. IN OTHER WORDS, ALL THE PEOPLE THAT YOU 12 CAN THINK OF THAT HAD A POSITION IN THE SALES DEPARTMENT 13 AS OF, SAY, THE 1970'S, YOU'VE ALREADY GIVEN ME THOSE 14 NAMES? 15 A YES. 16 Q BEFORE YOUR DEPOSITION TODAY, DID YOU MAKE ANY 17 ATTEMPT TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT UNION CARBIDE 13 THROUGH THE BAKELITE DIVISION WAS SELLING ANY PHENOLIC 19 MOLDING MATERIALS TO BENDIX CORPORATION IN PARTICULAR? 20 A YES. 21 Q IN ORDER TO MAKE THAT KIND OF A -- TO MAKE 22 YOURSELF KNOWLEDGEABLE ON THAT SUBJECT COULD YOU JUST 23 DESCRIBE FOR ME WHAT YOU DID? 24 MS. OBERG: I'M GOING TO JUST MAKE A STATEMENT 25 WHICH IS NOT YET A FORMAL OBJECTION: THAT MR. MARTINO'S 43 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 BEEN PRODUCED HERE NOT AS A CUSTODIAN OF RECORDS BUT AS 2 A PERSON MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE. UNION CARBIDE 3 ACKNOWLEDGES ITS OBLIGATION TO EDUCATE A WITNESS INSOFAR 4 AS PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE DOESN'T EXIST ABOUT AREAS IN A 5 DEPOSITION NOTICE THAT ARE APPROPRIATE. THAT SAME 6 PROCEDURE'S BEEN FOLLOWED IN THIS CASE. MY CAUTIONARY STATEMENT IS THAT IT MAY BECOME 8 QUICKLY NECESSARY FOR ME TO ASSERT AN ATTORNEY-CLIENT, 9 ATTORNEY WORK PRODUCT PRIVILEGE OBJECTION HERE, AND I 10 WOULD CAUTION THE WITNESS NOT TO REVEAL ANY 11 COMMUNICATIONS WITH COUNSEL. 12 HOWEVER, I RECOGNIZE THAT YOU ARE ENTITLED TO 13 KNOW THE SCOPE OF ANY INQUIRY THAT WAS DONE IN ORDER TO 14 RESPOND TO THIS DEPOSITION NOTICE. SO LET'S PROCEED 15 BEST WE CAN STEP BY STEP. 16 JUST TO -- TO -- DO YOU HAVE THE QUESTION IN 17 MIND? 18 THE WITNESS: LET'S REPEAT IT TO MAKE SURE I 19 UNDERSTAND IT. 20 MS. OBERG: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. 21 BY MR. JACKSON: 22 Q AND I'LL PHRASE IT THIS WAY, MR. MARTINO, 23 BECAUSE I ALSO DON'T NEED TO INQUIRE ABOUT CONVERSATIONS 24 YOU'VE HAD WITH COUNSEL. OKAY? OR COMMUNICATIONS 25 YOU'VE HAD WITH COUNSEL. 44 B A K E LIT E D IV IS IO N SOLD PHENOLIC MOLDING M ATERIALS TO 3B g --i : i r- co oo -=r in <M <M CM --i : i r-- co <T-THi oCM --(NI 22 B E N D IX . --i : i r-- co >y\ o <- cm ^ in y* <M CM CM <M <M CM 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 KNOW. 2 Q WHO WAS DOUG FASSETT? I DON'T THINK YOU 3 MENTIONED HIM ALREADY. 4 A HE WORKED FOR ME. 5 Q AND HIS POSITION WITH THE COMPANY WHEN HE 6 WORKED FOR YOU? 7 A HE WAS A ENGINEER. 8 Q OKAY. AND DO YOU KNOW JUST OFFHAND WHAT YEARS 9 HE WAS WITH THE COMPANY APPROXIMATELY? 10 A DURING THE '60S IS WHAT IT WAS, BUT HE 11 TRANSFERRED, AND I DON'T REMEMBER THE -- THE YEAR THAT 12 HE TRANSFERRED TO ANOTHER DIVISION. 13 Q OKAY. AND DOUG FASSETT LIVES WHERE? 14 A I DON'T KNOW. 15 Q IS HE STILL LIVING? 16 A I DON'T KNOW. 17 Q WHEN DID YOU LAST SPEAK TO MR. FASSETT? 18 A IN THE '60S WHEN HE LEFT. 19 Q ALL RIGHT. SO OTHER THAN CONVERSATIONS WITH 20 ATTORNEYS WHICH I'M NOT GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT AND 31 REVIEWING SALES RECORDS AND FORMULATION SHEETS, IS THERE 32 ANYTHING ELSE YOU DID TO MAKE YOURSELF KNOWLEDGEABLE OF 23 WHETHER OR NOT UNION CARBIDE SOLD PHENOLIC MOLDING 24 MATERIALS THROUGH ITS BAKELITE DIVISION TO BENDIX 25 CORPORATION? 49 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 A NO. 2 Q OKAY. 3 MS. OBERG: LET'S GO OFF THE RECORD FOR JUST A 4 SECOND. 5 MR. JACKSON: SURE. 6 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD.) 7 BY MR. JACKSON: 8 Q OKAY. SO YOU'VE -- YOU'VE KIND OF OUTLINED 9 WHAT YOU DID TO MAKE YOURSELF KNOWLEDGEABLE ON THIS 10 SUBJECT. WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS WHAT YOU FOUND OUT, AND 11 MY QUESTION FOR YOU IS: DID UNION CARBIDE THROUGH THEIR 12 BAKELITE DIVISION SELL PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS TO 13 BENDIX CORPORATION AT ANY TIME BETWEEN 1948 AND THE MID 14 1970'S? 15 A THE RECORDS THAT I REVIEWED SHOW THAT WE SOLD 16 SOME WHAT I WOULD CONSIDER SAMPLE QUANTITIES OF PHENOLIC 17 MOLDING MATERIALS. IS Q OKAY. DURING WHAT TIME FRAME? 19 A THIS WAS FROM THE -- THE '70S, THE '70S AND 20 POSSIBLY VERY LATE '60S. 31 Q OKAY. SO LET ME SEE IF I CAN JUST 32 UNDERSTAND -- 23 A YEAH. I'M NOT CERTAIN ABOUT THE '69, BUT 24 CERTAINLY THE '70S. 25 Q OKAY. BUT WHEN YOU SAY THE RECORDS THAT YOU 50 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 REVIEWED -- 2 A YEAH. 3 Q -- SHOWED THAT UNION CARBIDE SOLD SAMPLE 4 QUANTITIES OF PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS TO BENDIX 5 CORPORATION -- 6 A UH-HUH. 7 Q -- THE EARLIEST RECORDS WHICH WOULD REFER TO 8 THAT -- 9 A SALES RECORD. 10 Q -- THE EARLIEST SALES RECORDS WHICH WOULD 11 INDICATE THAT WOULD BE THE LATE '60S? 12 A YEAH. I'M NOT CERTAIN ABOUT *69, BUT THE '70S 13 I AM. 14 Q OKAY. AND THE LATEST RECORDS WHICH WOULD 15 INDICATE THAT WOULD BE APPROXIMATELY WHEN? 16 A THE LATEST, '74. 17 Q ALL RIGHT. SO THE TIME FRAME AT LEAST FROM 13 WHAT YOU'VE REVIEWED OF THE SALES RECORDS WHICH WOULD 10 INDICATE THAT PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS WERE BEING SOLD 20 IN SAMPLE QUANTITIES TO BENDIX CORPORATION WOULD BE 31 APPROXIMATELY '69 -- 22 A THAT'S RIGHT. 23 Q -- UNTIL APPROXIMATELY *74? 24 A RIGHT. 25 Q OKAY. AND IS THERE A WAY, WHEN YOU SAY "SAMPLE 51 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 QUANTITIES," TO TELL ME HOW MUCH PHENOLIC MOLDING 2 MATERIALS WAS SOLD TO BENDIX DURING THIS TIME FRAME? 3 A THE SAMPLES WERE 300 POUNDS ON A SIZE, AND I 4 RECALL THOUSAND-POUND QUANTITY. 5 Q OKAY. AND WHEN YOU SAY 300-POUND SIZE, YOU'RE 6 TALKING ABOUT ONE SHIPMENT OF PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS 7 THAT WERE APPROXIMATELY 300 POUNDS? 8 A YES. 9 Q OKAY. AND ANOTHER SHIPMENT OF PHENOLIC MOLDING 10 MATERIALS OF APPROXIMATELY 1,000 POUNDS? 11 A YES. 12 Q OKAY. 13 A THERE WERE MORE THAN ONE OF EACH OF THOSE AT 14 DIFFERENT TIMES. 15 Q CAN YOU ESTIMATE FOR ME THE NUMBER OF SALES 16 RECORDS YOU SAW WHICH SHOWED A SALE OF PHENOLIC MOLDING 17 MATERIALS TO BENDIXCORPORATION? 18 A ABOUT FOUR. I'M NOT TALKING PAGES. FOUR 19 YEARS. 20 Q BUT I GUESS WHAT I'M GETTING AT IS: IN THIS 21 TIME FRAME OF THIS FOUR-YEAR SPAN IS THERE A WAY FOR ME 22 TO ESTIMATE HOW MUCH PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS WERE 23 SOLD FROM UNION CARBIDE'S BAKELITE DIVISION TO BENDIX? 24 MS. OBERG: IN POUNDS? 25 BY MR. JACKSON: 52 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 Q YEAH. AND IN ANY OTHER WAY TO GIVE ME AN 2 ESTIMATE OF QUANTITY. 3 A I WOULD JUST ADD UP WHAT'S ON THOSE RECORDS. 4 Q OKAY. 5 A I DIDN'T DO THAT. 6 Q ALL RIGHT. BUT JUST -- I WASN'T SURE I 7 UNDERSTOOD YOUR PREVIOUS TESTIMONY. I ASKED YOU THE 8 NUMBER OF -- OF RECORDS THAT EXISTED, AND YOU SAID 9 APPROXIMATELY FOUR, AND THEN YOU SAID THAT WAS IN YEARS. 10 A THE RECORDS FOR '74, THE RECORDS FOR '73, 11 RECORDS FOR '71. 12 Q OKAY. GOT IT. 13 A '70. 14 Q ALL RIGHT. 15 A DID I MISS '72? 16 Q WELL, IN A FOUR-YEAR TIME PERIOD WE'RE TALKING 17 ABOUT; RIGHT? 18 A THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. THERE WAS ONE 19 PAGE TO EACH OF THOSE. 20 Q OKAY. IS THERE A WAY FROM LOOKING AT THOSE 31 RECORDS TO TELL ME WHETHER OR NOT THE PHENOLIC MOLDING 32 MATERIALS THAT WERE SOLD TO BENDIX THAT YOU REFERRED TO 23 FROM THE SALES RECORDS CONTAINED ASBESTOS? 24 A FROM THE NUMBERS, YES. 25 Q SO FROM THE NUMBERS YOU CAN TELL WHETHER OR NOT 53 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 THEY DID CONTAIN ASBESTOS? 2 A YES. 3 Q AND IS THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION THAT THEY DID? 4 A 7335 CONTAINED 5 PERCENT ASBESTOS PRIOR TO -- 5 UP TO ABOUT THE END OF 1971, WHEN IT WAS REMOVED. 6 Q UP AND UNTIL WHAT YEAR? 7 A THE END OF 1971. 8 Q AND THAT 7335 NUMBER IS -- IS THE PRODUCT 9 FORMULATION NUMBER. 10 A YES. 11 Q IS THAT -- 12 A YES, IT IS. 13 Q OKAY. WERE THERE OTHER PRODUCT FORMULATION 14 NUMBERS BESIDES 7335 THAT UNION CARBIDE THROUGH THEIR 15 BAKELITE DIVISION WAS SELLING AS FAR AS PHENOLIC MOLDING 16 MATERIALS TO BENDIX? 17 A THERE, I THINK, WAS A 5498, AND THE ASBESTOS 18 WAS REMOVED FROM THAT ALSO ABOUT THE SAME TIME, TO THE 19 BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION. 20 Q SO APPROXIMATELY '71? 31 A '71, LATE '71. 32 Q ANY OTHER FORMULATION NUMBERS THAT YOU SAW -- 23 A 5020. THAT DID NOT CONTAIN ASBESTOS. 24 Q SO THAT WAS ANOTHER FORMULATION NUMBER THAT YOU 25 SAW AS FAR AS PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS BEING SOLD FROM 54 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 THE BAKELITE DIVISION TO BENDIX? 2 A YES. 3 Q OKAY. ANY OTHER FORMULATION NUMBERS? 4 A NO, NONE -- NONE THAT I RECALL AT THIS TIME. 5 Q OKAY. ALL RIGHT. SO IN TERMS OF THE OVERALL 6 VOLUME OF PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS SOLD FROM THE 7 BAKELITE DIVISION TO BENDIX, CAN YOU TELL ME HOW MUCH OF 8 THAT WAS ASBESTOS-CONTAINING PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS 9 VERSUS NONASBESTOS? 10 MS. OBERG: I'M OBJECTING INSOFAR AS IT'S 11 VAGUE. WHEN YOU SAY HOW MUCH -- 12 MR. JACKSON; QUANTITYWISE. 13 THE WITNESS; AFTER THE END OF 1971, NONE. 14 BY MR. JACKSON; 15 Q OKAY. SO I GUESS THE WAY TO ANSWER THAT 16 QUESTION WOULD BE YOU'D LOOK AT THE SALES RECORDS, YOU'D 17 LOOK AT THE PRODUCT FORMULATION NUMBER. IF IT WAS 7345 13 OR 5498 AND IT WAS DATED PRIOR TO '71, THAT WOULD 10 IDENTIFY A FORMULA WITH ASBESTOS IN IT. 20 A YES. 31 Q AND ANY OF THE FORMULAS AFTER '71 FOR THOSE 22 SALES, IT WOULDN'T HAVE ASBESTOS? 23 A THAT'S RIGHT. 24 Q OKAY. BUT IN TERMS OF HOW MUCH THAT WAS SOLD 25 FROM THE BAKELITE DIVISION TO BENDIX, YOU'D JUST HAVE TO 55 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 LOOK AT THE SALES RECORDS TO DETERMINE THAT. 2 A I'D JUST HAVE TO ADD UP WHAT WAS LISTED THERE 3 FOR EACH MONTH. 4 Q HAVE YOU DONE THAT? IS THERE ANY WAY TO 5 ESTIMATE THAT? 6 A NO, I HAVEN'T. THE QUANTITY IS SMALL. MR. JACKSON; AM I GOING TO GET THE SALES 8 RECORDS, BY THE WAY? 9 MS. OBERG: IF YOU WANT THEM, BRUCE, THERE'S A 10 CRITICAL QUESTION THAT'S OUTSTANDING HERE, AND THAT -- 11 YOU KNOW, IT'S YOUR DEPOSITION -- IF YOU WANT THEM, BUT 12 WE WILL -- WE WILL CONSIDER THAT AND -- AND PRODUCE 13 THEM. 14 MR. JACKSON: WELL, YEAH, BECAUSE I CAN'T 15 REALLY QUESTION HIM ABOUT THE RECORDS IF I DON'T EVEN 16 SEE THEM. I MEAN I UNDERSTAND YOUR POSITION MAY BE THAT 17 THEY PERTAIN TO SOMETHING THAT'S NOT RELEVANT. RIGHT? 18 MS. OBERG: YES. THAT'S CORRECT. 19 MR. JACKSON: BUT WITHOUT SEEING THE RECORDS 20 THEMSELVES, I CAN'T EXAMINE ON THAT SUBJECT OF WHETHER 21 THEY'RE RELEVANT OR NOT. 22 MS. OBERG: OKAY. LET'S GO OFF THE RECORD FOR 23 A SECOND AND DISCUSS IT. 24 MR. JACKSON: LET'S GO OFF THE RECORD. 25 MS. OBERG: WE'LL GO BACK ON THE RECORD IF WE 56 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 WANT TO PUT SOMETHING ON IT ABOUT THIS, BUT, YOU KNOW, 2 YOU HAVE TO -- MR. JACKSON: OKAY. OFF THE RECORD AT THIS 4 TIME. 5 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD.) 6 MS. OBERG: WE'VE HAD ADISCUSSIONABOUT THE PRODUCTION OF THE SALES RECORDS, AND I WILL MAKE THIS 8 COMMITMENT TO MR.JACKSON. 9 IF BY THE END OF THIS DEPOSITION YOU ARE STILL 10 INTERESTED IN SEEING THE RECORDS OF SALES OF MOLDING 11 COMPOUNDS TO BENDIX, WE WILL PRODUCE THEM. 12 CAN WE TAKE A BREAK, JUST A COMFORT BREAK? 13 MR. JACKSON: YEAH, 'CAUSE I MAY HAVE ANOTHER 14 HALF HOUR OR SO AT THEMOST. 15 MS. OBERG: OKAY. 16 MR. JACKSON: I REALLYAM NOT GOING TOSPEND 17 ALL DAY. I THINK YOU SHOULD AT LEAST GET TO SPEND SOME 18 TIME DOING SOMETHING OTHER THAN THIS WHILE YOU'RE OUT 19 HERE. 20 (RECESS.) 21 BY MR. JACKSON: 22 Q MR. MARTINO, I'M GOING TO -- I HAVE SOME 23 FOLLOWUP QUESTIONS ABOUT THE PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS 24 SOLD TO BENDIX IN THIS TIME FRAME THAT WE WERE TALKING 25 ABOUT, *69 TO '74 APPROXIMATELY, BUT BEFORE I JUST GET 57 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 NARROWED IN ON THAT TIME FRAME, I WANT TO MAKE SURE. 2 WERE YOU ABLE TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT UNION 3 CARBIDE WAS EVER SELLING PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS 4 THROUGH THEIR BAKELITE DIVISION FOR BENDIX CORPORATION 5 BEFORE 1969? 6 A I DIDN'T DO THAT. Q OKAY. SO IT'S -- I'M GOING TO GO TO THAT '69 8 TIME FRAME -- 9 A YEAH. 10 Q -- BUT AS FAR AS BEFORE THAT TIME FRAME, YOU 11 DIDN'T MAKE ANY ATTEMPT TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THEY 12 WERE SELLING TO BENDIX PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS PRIOR 13 TO THAT TIME FRAME, '69 -- 14 A NO, I DID NOT. 15 Q OKAY. SO LET'S JUST GO BACK TO THE '69 TO *74 16 TIME FRAME WHERE YOU FOCUSED ON. WERE YOU ABLE TO 17 DETERMINE, AS FAR AS THE PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS THAT 18 WERE BEING SOLD TO BENDIX THROUGH THE BAKELITE DIVISION 19 IN THIS PERIOD, WHAT THOSE MATERIALS WERE FOR? 20 A THEY WOULD BE FOR COMPONENTS OF ABRAKESYSTEM. 21 Q OKAY. AND HOW IS IT THAT YOUWOULD BEABLE TO 22 DETERMINE THAT? 23 A IT SAID "AUTOMOTIVE PARTS" ON THE SHEETS, THE 24 FORMULA SHEET. NOW, WHEN I SAY AUTOMOTIVE PARTS, I'M 25 NOT REFERRING TO BRAKE LININGS OR CLUTCH FACINGS OR 56 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 BRAKE PADS. IT'S PARTS THAT GO INTO THE HYDRAULIC 2 SYSTEM OF THE BRAKE SYSTEM, NOT THE FRICTION PARTS. 3 Q OKAY. BUT TO UNDERSTAND: THE RECORDS THAT YOU 4 LOOKED AT THAT SAID "AUTOMOTIVE PARTS," WOULD THOSE BE 5 THE FORMULATION SHEETS THAT YOU WERE REFERRING TO? 6 A YES. 7 Q OKAY. AND THOSE FORMULATION SHEETS, DID THEY 8 ALSO INDICATE WHO THE CUSTOMER WAS? 9 A IN THE CASE OF 7335, IT WOULD -- WAS -- IT 10 MENTIONED BENDIX. 11 Q OKAY. SO IT ACTUALLY SAID "BENDIX" -- 12 A YES. 13 Q -- ON THE FORMULATION SHEET? 14 A YEAH. 15 Q ALL RIGHT. AND YOU SAID THAT THE -- THE 16 PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS WERE BEING SOLD FOR 17 AUTOMOTIVE PARTS BUT NOT FOR USE AS BRAKE LININGS? 13 A THAT'S CORRECT. 10 Q OKAY. 20 A FOR FRICTION PARTS, MY DEFINITION OF FRICTION 21 PARTS WOULD BE BRAKE LININGS, BRAKE PADS, CLUTCH 22 FACINGS. 23 Q SO THEY WEREN'T BEING SOLD FOR THAT PURPOSE. 24 THEY WERE BEING SOLD FOR WHAT PURPOSE? 25 A FOR SOME COMPONENT IN THE HYDRAULIC SYSTEM THAT 59 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 WAS CONSIDERED PART OF THE ENTIRE BRAKE SYSTEM. 2 Q OKAY. AND HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? 3 A HOW DO I KNOW THAT THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE GOING 4 TO BE USED FOR? 5 Q RIGHT. 6 A AT THE TIME THAT THE REQUEST WOULD BE MADE FOR A PARTICULAR PRODUCT, A CUSTOMER WOULD TELL US, YOU 8 KNOW, THAT -- WHATPARTICULAR PART WOULD --THEY WERE 9 LOOKING AT. 10 Q WELL, IN OTHER WORDS, IS THERE SOMETHING THAT 11 YOU COULD REFER TO ON THE FORMULATION SHEET ITSELF THAT 12 TELLS YOU, "OKAY. FROM MY EXPERIENCE FROM LOOKING AT 13 THIS FORMULATION SHEET, I CAN TELL THAT THIS WOULD BE 14 USED NOT FOR A FRICTION MATERIAL BUT FOR THE HYDRAULIC 15 SYSTEM"? 16 A THAT CONCLUSION WOULD COME FROM KNOWING WHAT WE 17 WERE DOING IN A PHENOLIC RESIN AREA AND HOW OUR BUSINESS 18 WAS SEPARATED, NOT FROM THE FORMULATION SHEET. 19 Q OKAY. ALL RIGHT. AS FAR AS THE SALES RECORDS 20 THAT YOU HAD LOOKED AT, IS THERE ANYTHING ON THE SALES 21 RECORD THAT WOULD BE ABLE TO HELP YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT 22 THE -- THE PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS BEING SOLD TO 23 BENDIX WEREBEINGUSED FORJUST ON THESALES RECORD 24 ITSELF? 25 A SALES RECORD WOULD ONLY SHOW THE NUMBER. 60 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 Q OKAY. ALL RIGHT. SO YOU SAY THAT 2 UNDERSTANDING, THAT THESE WERE BEING USED AS PART OF A 3 HYDRAULIC SYSTEM AS OPPOSED TO FRICTION PARTS, IT CAME 4 THROUGH KNOWING WHAT YOU WERE DOING AS PART OF WORKING 5 IN THE PHENOLIC RESINS AREA? 6 A YES. AND THE TESTS THAT YOU WOULD RUN ON THE PART IN ORDER TO SATISFY THE CUSTOMER'S NEEDS. MS. OBERG: BRUCE, HE JUST SAID IN THE PHENOLIC 9 RESINS AREA. I KNOW YOU WERE -- NEVER MIND. WITHDRAW 10 THE COMMENT. WITHDRAW THE COMMENT. 11 MR. JACKSON: I JUST REPEATED WHAT HE SAID. 12 MS. OBERG: I KNOW. 13 BY MR. JACKSON: 14 Q IN OTHER WORDS, PERFORMANCE-TYPE TESTING? 15 A YES. 16 Q OKAY. DO YOU HAVE A MEMORY OF YOURSELF BEING 17 INVOLVED IN ANYPERFORMANCE-TYPE TESTING FOR PHENOLIC 18 MOLDING MATERIALS THAT WERE SOLD TOBENDIX? 19 A I PERSONALLY WAS NOT INVOLVED, BUT PEOPLE WHO 20 WORKED IN THE GROUP WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR PERFORMING 21 THOSE TESTS AND FOLLOWING UP WITH THE CUSTOMER AND WHAT 22 TESTS THE CUSTOMER WAS RUNNING ON THEM. DOUG FASSETT, 23 FOR EXAMPLE. 24 Q ANY OTHER PERSONS BESIDES DOUG FASSETT THAT YOU 25 WOULD NAME WHO WOULD BE INVOLVED IN THAT TYPE OF 61 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 PERFORMANCE TESTING FOR A PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIAL SOLD 2 TO BENDIX? 3 A BENDIX CORPORATION -- THE BENDIX PERSON WHO WAS 4 GOING TO USE THE MATERIAL WOULD ALSO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR 5 RUNNING PERFORMANCE TESTS. 6 Q WAS THAT AFTER THE PRODUCT WAS SOLD, OR WAS THAT IN SOME WAY DONE IN CONJUNCTION WITH UNION 8 CARBIDE'S PERFORMANCE TESTING? 9 A WELL, THE SAMPLE QUANTITY -- THE PROCEDURE IS 10 TO GIVE THE CUSTOMER SAMPLE QUANTITIES, AND THE CUSTOMER 11 THEN MOLDS IT INTO THE PARTS THEY NEED TO DO THE 12 TESTING, AND IF IT PASSES THE TESTS, THEN SPECIFIES IT 13 FOR THAT PARTICULAR PART. 14 Q OKAY. SO ASIDE FROM BENDIX PERSONNEL AND 15 MR. FASSETT, IS THERE ANYONE ELSE YOU COULD IDENTIFY 16 THAT WOULD BE INVOLVED IN PERFORMANCE TESTING FOR 17 PHENOLIC MOLDING COMPOUNDS SOLD TO BENDIX IN THIS TIME 18 FRAME? 19 A IF THERE WAS SOME REQUEST FOR PHYSICAL 20 PROPERTIES, DOUG FASSETT WOULD SUBMIT SAMPLES OF 21 SPECIMENS TO OURPHYSICALTESTING LABORATORY OR, YOU 22 KNOW, IF THAT WAS REQUESTED BY BENDIX. 23 Q BY THEWAY, ATTHIS TIME YOU WEREDOUG 24 FASSETT'S BOSS? 25 A YES. 62 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 Q FAIR WAY TO CATEGORIZE IT? OKAY. WERE YOU 2 PERSONALLY AWARE DURING THIS TIME FRAME THAT THE 3 BAKELITE DIVISION WAS DOING PERFORMANCE TESTING ON 4 PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS THAT WERE SOLD TO BENDIX? 5 MS. OBERG: IN OTHER WORDS, DOES HE KNOW IT 6 HAPPENED IN THIS INSTANCE? 7 MR. JACKSON: WELL, YEAH. 8 Q LET ME MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M 9 ASKING. AT THE TIME IN THE '69 TO '74 TIME FRAME, YOU 10 WERE DOUG FASSETT'S BOSS IN THIS TIME FRAME? 11 A YES. 12 Q OKAY. AND YOU HAD MENTIONED THAT DOUG FASSETT 13 WAS THE PERSON THAT WAS INVOLVED IN THIS TYPE OF 14 PERFORMANCE TESTING, NOT YOU PERSONALLY. 15 A THAT'S RIGHT. 16 Q IS THAT FAIR? 17 A THAT'S RIGHT. 13 Q WERE YOU AWARE AT THAT TIME THAT PERFORMANCE 10 TESTING WAS BEING DONE FOR PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIALS 20 THAT WERE BEING SOLD TO BENDIX IN PARTICULAR? 21 A YES. IT WAS ON THE SHEET. 22 Q YOU MEAN IT WAS ON THE -- 23 A ON THE DATA SHEET, ON THE FORMULATION SHEET, 24 THE CUSTOMER. 25 Q OKAY. BUT IS THIS SOMETHING THAT YOU RECENTLY 63 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 LEARNED WHEN YOU WENT BACK AND LOOKED AT THE FORMULATION 2 SHEETS? 3 A IT REFRESHED MY MEMORY. 4 Q OKAY. 5 A I SIGNED IT. I USUALLY SIGNED THE FORMULATION 6 SHEETS. Q OKAY. 8 A I, YOU KNOW,APPROVED THEM -- 9 Q OKAY? 10 A -- BEFORE THEY WENTTO MANUFACTURING. 11 MS. OBERG: IS THE DISTINCTION -- I'M SORRY TO 12 INTERRUPT. IS THE DISTINCTION WHETHER MR. MARTINO KNOWS 13 THAT UNION CARBIDE PERFORMED PERFORMANCE TESTS ON 14 PRODUCTS DESTINED FOR BENDIX? 15 MR. JACKSON: YES. 16 MS. OBERG: DID YOU HEAR THAT? DO YOU KNOW -- 17 I DON'T WANT TO PHRASE IT. 18 MR. JACKSON: NO, NO. GO AHEAD. 19 MS. OBERG: I WANT IT CLEAR. DO YOUKNOW 20 WHETHER UNION CARBIDE -- IN THE 1960'S WHETHER UNION 21 CARBIDE ITSELF DID PERFORMANCETESTS ON MOLDING 22 COMPOUNDS DESTINED FOR BENDIX AS OPPOSED TO BENDIX DOING 23 TESTS ITSELF? 24 THE WITNESS: I DON'T -- SPECIFICALLY WHAT 25 BENDIX ASKED FOR I DON'T REMEMBER NOW. 64 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 BY MR. JACKSON: 2 Q OKAY. ALL RIGHT. I GUESS WHAT I'M GETTING AT 3 IS I HAD PREVIOUSLY ASKED YOU IF JUST FROM LOOKING AT A 4 FORMULATION SHEET YOU CAN DETERMINE JUST FROM THE 5 FORMULATION SHEET WHAT THE PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIAL 6 THAT'S BEING SOLD TO BENDIX IS GOING TO BE USED FOR. JUST FROM LOOKING AT THAT SHEET, YOU HAD SAID 8 YOU COULDN'T DO IT JUST FROM THAT; CORRECT? 9 MS. OBERG: OBJECTION. MISSTATES TESTIMONY. 10 BY MR. JACKSON: 11 Q AM I MISSTATING YOUR TESTIMONY? 12 A IF THE SHEET WOULD SAY "AUTOMOTIVE PARTS," THAT 13 WOULD BE WHAT I WOULD, YOU KNOW, CONCLUDE IT WAS BEING 14 DEVELOPED FOR. 15 Q OKAY. BUT YOU COULDN'T TELL MORE SPECIFICALLY 16 OTHER THAN AUTOMOTIVE PARTS WHETHER IT WAS BEING USED AS 17 A FRICTION MATERIAL OR AS A HYDRAULIC -- PART OF A 18 HYDRAULIC SYSTEM JUST FROM LOOKING AT THE FORMULATION 19 SHEET. 20 A THE PERFORMANCE TESTS WOULD TELL ME. WE WERE 21 NOT SET UP TO RUN PERFORMANCE TESTS IN THE MOLDING 22 MATERIAL AREA FOR BRAKE LININGS OR THE FRICTION PADS. 23 THAT WAS DONE IN A SEPARATE AREA IN UNION CARBIDE AS A 24 PART OF THE PHENOLIC RESINS SALES. 25 SO IT WASN'T NECESSARY FOR ME TO LOOK AT THE 65 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 FORMULA TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS GOING TO BE A 2 FRICTION MATERIAL. IT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT 3 FORMULATION THAN WHAT THE FRICTION MATERIAL PEOPLE WERE 4 DOING. 5 G CAN YOU DESCRIBE -- 6 A I'M SORRY. ARE YOU -- 7 MS. OBERG: IT'S FINE. 8 THE WITNESS:: I MEAN I -- 9 MS. OBERG: IF YOU NEED CLARIFICATION -- 10 THE WITNESS:: I MEAN -- 11 MS. OBERG: NO. HE'LL ASK QUESTIONS. 12 THE WITNESS:: r -13 MS. OBERG: HE'LL ASK QUESTIONS. 14 THE WITNESS:: OKAY. 15 MS. OBERG: YOU'RE DOING FINE. 16 BY MR. JACKSON: 17 Q OKAY. SO YOU'RE DISTINGUISHING THERE IN YOUR 18 ANSWER PHENOLIC RESINS VERSUS PHENOLIC MOLDINGS? 19 A YES. THAT'S CORRECT. 20 Q ALL RIGHT. SO IN THE PHENOLIC MOLDINGS SECTION 21 WHEN THERE WAS PERFORMANCE TESTING DONE, THERE WAS 22 NOTHING SET UP TO TEST ANY OF THE PHENOLIC MOLDINGS 23 BEING SOLD FOR USE IN FRICTION APPLICATIONS. 24 A THAT'S CORRECT. AT NO TIME DID WE EVER DEVELOP 25 A PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIAL FOR A FRICTION PART IN THE 66 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY. 2 Q OKAY. SO -- 3 A AND BY FRICTION PART I DEFINE BRAKE LINING, 4 BRAKE PADS, CLUTCH FACINGS. 5 Q OKAY. NOW, WHAT THAT TELLS YOU IS SINCE FOR 6 PERFORMANCE TESTING THERE WAS NO SETUP TO TEST PHENOLIC MOLDINGS FOR FRICTION APPLICATIONS, WHAT IT TELLS YOU -- 8 BECAUSE THERE WASN'T ANY PERFORMANCE TESTING BEING DONE, 9 WHAT IT TELLS YOU IS BECAUSE PHENOLIC MOLDINGS WEREN'T 10 BEING SOLD FOR THAT PURPOSE? 11 A THAT'S CORRECT. YOU NEEDED AN ENTIRELY 12 DIFFERENT FORMULATION ANDINGREDIENTS WHICH OUR PROCESS 13 WOULD NOT HANDLE. 14 Q OKAY. SO -- 15 A AND I'M AWARE OF THAT BECAUSE WE HAD PEOPLE, A 16 GROUP THAT DEVELOPED A RESIN SPECIFICALLY FOR BRAKE 17 LINING CUSTOMERS AND SOLD RESIN TO THEM, AND THEY HAD 18 EQUIPMENT FOR TESTING THOSE RESINS IN FRICTION 19 APPLICATIONS AS A MEANS OF DEVELOPING THAT PHENOLIC 20 RESIN. SO, YOU KNOW, THE TWO WERE SEPARATE UNITS, AND 21 THE SALES WERE SEPARATE -- CONSIDERED LIKE SEPARATE 22 ORGANIZATIONS FOR -- 23 Q ALL RIGHT. SO FOR THE PHENOLIC MOLDINGS 24 DIVISION, THE PERFORMANCE TESTING THAT WAS DONE FOR THE 25 PHENOLIC MOLDINGS THAT WERE BEING SOLD TO BENDIX WAS 67 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 WHAT TYPE OF PERFORMANCE TESTING? 2 A IT WOULD BE PHYSICAL PROPERTIES: TENSILE, 3 FLEXURAL, IMPACT STRENGTH WHICH WE DID ON ANY PRODUCT WE 4 DEVELOPED. 5 Q OKAY. 6 A ANY -- ANY PERFORMANCE FACET INVOLVED THE MOLDED PART IN THE BRAKE SYSTEM WOULD BE DONE BY BENDIX 8 OR WHOEVER BENDIX, YOU KNOW, HAD DOING THOSE TESTS -- 9 Q AND - 10 A -- AND THE PRESSURE TESTS THEY WOULD RUN. 11 Q AND FOR THAT TYPE OF TESTING IN THE PHENOLIC 12 MOLDINGS DIVISION, NOT PHENOLIC RESINS, THE PERSON THAT 13 YOU REMEMBER, OR THAT AT LEAST YOU CAN IDENTIFY TODAY -- 14 A YEAH. 15 Q -- THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN THAT WAS 16 DOUG FASSETT? 17 A YES. 18 Q OKAY. DOUG FASSETT WAS NOT, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, 19 INVOLVED IN ANY OF THE TESTING DONE FOR PHENOLIC RESINS? 20 A NO, HE WAS NOT. 21 Q AND YOUR PARTICULAR JOB DESCRIPTION, IN TERMS 22 OF BEING DOUG FASSETT'S BOSS, YOU WOULD HAVE HAD AN 23 UNDERSTANDING WHAT WAS GOING ON FOR -- LET ME START THAT 24 QUESTION. IT'S GOING TO BE A BAD QUESTION. I PROBABLY 25 WOULD HAVE OBJECTED TO IT MYSELF, SAVE LISA THE TROUBLE. 68 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 YOUR INVOLVEMENT WAS WITH THE PHENOLIC MOLDINGS 2 DIVISION IN TERMS OF PERFORMANCE TESTING, NOT THE 3 PHENOLIC RESINS? 4 A I HAD RESPONSIBILITY FOR LAMINATING RESINS 5 FOR -- DURING SOME OF THOSE 14 YEARS. I ALSO FOR ONE 6 YEAR HAD THE PERSON WHO DID THE DEVELOPMENT OF PHENOLIC RESINS FOR THE BRAKE LINING CUSTOMERS ASSIGNED TO ME FOR 8 A YEAR, PLUS I KNOW THE STRUCTURE OF THE BUSINESS AND 9 HOW WE DEALT WITH THE TWO DIFFERENT APPLICATIONS. 10 Q AND IN TERMS -- JUST SO I'M DISTINGUISHING 11 BETWEEN THE PHENOLIC MOLDINGS AND PHENOLIC RESINS, THE 12 FORMULATIONS THAT YOU MENTIONED EARLIER, 7335, 5498, 13 5020, THOSE ARE ALL FORMULATIONS FOR PHENOLIC MOLDING 14 MATERIALS? 15 A YES. 16 Q OKAY. AND AS FAR ASTHEFORMULATIONSHEETS AND 17 SALES RECORDS THAT YOU REFERRED TO THAT YOU REVIEWED, 18 THOSE WERE TO ASCERTAIN SALES OF PHENOLIC MOLDING 19 MATERIALS TO BENDIX? 20 A ON THOSE SAME SHEETS SHOWED THE SALES OF RESINS 21 AS WELL, AND I COULD TELL FROM THE DESIGNATION WHICH 22 WERE RESINS AND WHICH WERE MOLDING MATERIALS. 23 Q OKAY. THE RESINS DID NOT HAVEASBESTOSIN THEM 24 AT THIS TIME FRAME? 25 A NO, THEY DID NOT. 69 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 MS. OBERG: DID THEY EVER? 2 THE WITNESS: NEVER. WELL, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT 3 THE DAYS OF DR. BAEKLAND, BUT THEY DIDN'T AS FAR BACK AS 4 LIKE -- THE RECORDS I'VE SEEN. 5 BY MR. JACKSON: 6 Q OKAY. SO TO KIND OF UNDERSTAND THIS DIFFERENCE, YOU DID SEE THAT THERE WERE SALES OF PHENOLIC RESIN MATERIALS FROM UNION CARBIDE TO BENDIX; 9 HOWEVER, THOSE PHENOLIC RESIN MATERIALS DID NOT HAVE 10 ASBESTOS IN THEM -- 11 A THAT'S CORRECT. 12 Q -- CORRECT? 13 AND THOSE PHENOLIC -- PHENOLIC RESIN MATERIALS 14 WOULD BE USED, AS FAR AS YOU UNDERSTOOD, FOR FRICTION 15 APPLICATION? 16 A WHETHER THEY WERE OR NOT, I DON'T KNOW. 17 Q OKAY. 18 A I CAN ONLY SAY THAT THEY WERE PHENOLIC RESINS 19 FROM THE DESIGNATION. 20 Q OKAY. FAIR ENOUGH. BUT THE PHENOLIC MOLDING 21 MATERIALS THAT WE'RE DISCUSSING THAT WERE SOLD WERE NOT 22 USED FOR FRICTION APPLICATIONS, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE? 23 A THAT'S RIGHT. 24 Q DO YOU KNOW WHO R.T. MARSHALL IS? 25 A HE WAS IN THE PRODUCTION DEPARTMENT. HE KEPT 70 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 RECORDS. 2 Q WHICH PRODUCTION DEPARTMENT? 3 A PHENOLIC MOLDING MATERIAL. 4 Q WHEN YOU SAY HE KEPT RECORDS, WAS -- WHAT WAS 5 HIS JOB TITLE? 6 A I DON'T RECALL THE TITLE. HIS RESPONSIBILITY 7 WAS TO MAINTAIN A -- ALL OF THE FILES WITH ALL THE 8 FORMULATIONS THAT THE MANUFACTURING DEPARTMENT WOULD 9 PRODUCE OR BE ASKED TO PRODUCE. 10 Q AND DO YOU KNOW WHEN HE WAS EMPLOYED WITH UNION 11 CARBIDE? 12 A WHEN HE STARTED, I CAN'T TELL YOU, NO. 13 Q FAIR TO SAY HE WAS EMPLOYED WITH UNION CARBIDE 14 AS OF APPROXIMATELY 1969? 15 A HE WAS THERE MANY OF THE YEARS I WAS IN THE 16 BUSINESS. 17 MR. JACKSON: I WANT TO MARK THIS AS EXHIBIT 2. 13 I'LL SHOW IT TO YOU IN A SECOND. 19 (PLAINTIFFS* EXHIBIT 2 WAS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 20 BY THE CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER.) 21 MS. OBERG: THANKS. 22 MR. JACKSON: YOU HAVE A COPY OF THAT STUFF? 23 MS. OBERG: YEAH, WE HAVE SEEN THIS. THANKS. 24 THE WITNESS: OKAY. 25 71 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 BY MR. JACKSON: 2 Q OKAY. DOES EXHIBIT 2 THAT IJUST MARKED LOOK 3 FAMILIAR TO YOU? DOES THE DOCUMENT LOOK FAMILIAR TO 4 YOU? 5 A SURE. YES. 6 Q DOES IT APPEAR TO YOU TO BE A COPY OF UNION 7 CARBIDE'S BUSINESS RECORDS? 8 A COPY OF UNION CARBIDE'S MANUFACTURING RECORD. 9 Q CORRECT. IN OTHER WORDS, EXHIBIT 2 APPEARS TO 10 BE A TRUE AND CORRECT COPY OF A UNION CARBIDE BUSINESS 11 RECORD? IS THAT TRUE? 12 A WELL, YOU -- IF YOU'RE CALLING A MANUFACTURING 13 RECORD A BUSINESS RECORD, THEN YES. 14 Q OKAY. WHAT I WANTED TO ASK YOU IS NOT THE 15 COVER PAGE PAGE 2 BUT THE SECOND PAGE OF THAT DOCUMENT. 16 CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT -- DO YOU HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF 17 WHAT THAT PAGE 2 IS? 18 A IT'S A SUMMARY OF WHAT THIS PRODUCT IS AND IN 19 THIS PARTICULAR CASE SHOWS CUSTOMER AND APPLICATION. 20 Q IS THAT A PORTION OF A FORMULATION SHEET THAT 21 YOU HAD DESCRIBED EARLIER? IS IT THAT TYPEOF A 22 DOCUMENT? 23 A I AM NOT FAMILIAR ENOUGH WITH HOW THE 24 MANUFACTURING DEPARTMENT FILED THESE,WHETHER THIS WAS 25 PART OF THIS OR WHETHER THEY PUT THIS IN A SEPARATE FILE 72 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 FROM THIS. 2 MS. OBERG: AND JUST TO BE CLEAR FOR THE 3 RECORD, THE "THIS" AND THE"THIS" ARE PAGES 2 AND 3 OF 4 EXHIBITS -- OF EXHIBIT 2. 5 THE WITNESS: YEAH. 6 BY MR. JACKSON: Q OKAY. WOULD IT BE ACCURATE TO SAY THAT PAGE 2 8 WOULD BE THE TYPE OF DOCUMENT THAT YOU REVIEWED PRIOR TO 9 YOUR DEPOSITION IN ORDER TO DETERMINE IF UNION CARBIDE 10 WAS SELLING PHENOLIC MOLDINGSTO BENDIX? 11 A IT WAS REVIEWED AFTER IT WAS -- I DETERMINED 12 THAT -- WELL, LET ME BACK UP ON THIS. 13 MS. OBERG: I SHOWED IT TO HIM. 14 THE WITNESS: YES. 15 MR. JACKSON: NO. I UNDERSTAND. 16 THE WITNESS: YEAH. 17 BY MR. JACKSON: 18 Q YOU TOLD ME THAT YOU'VE LOOKED AT SALES RECORDS 19 AND -- AND FORMULATION SHEETS. IS PAGE 2 -- DOES IT 20 FALL WITHIN THAT CATEGORY OF -- OF EITHER ONE OF THOSE 21 THINGS? 22 A I DON'T REMEMBER WHETHER I SAW 7335 ON THOSE 23 SALES RECORDS OR NOT, BUT I DID SEE THIS DOCUMENT. 24 WHETHER IT WAS ONE OF THE SAMPLES WE'VE TALKED ABOUT OR 25 NOT, I -- I'D HAVE TO TAKE ANOTHER LOOK AT THOSE 73 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 MANUFACTURING RECORDS. I THINK IT WAS -- IN ANY 2 EVENT -- BUT BACK UP AND ASK YOUR QUESTION AGAIN. 3 Q SURE. SURE. WAS PAGE 2 -- WOULD THAT BE -- 4 WOULD YOU CATEGORIZE PAGE 2 AS ONE OF THE TYPES OF SALES 5 RECORDS THAT YOU LOOKED AT BEFORE THIS DEPOSITION OR 6 FORMULATION SHEETS? 7 A THIS IS NOT A SALES RECORD. 8 Q OKAY. 9 A YEAH. 10 Q THAT PART. 11 A YOU'RE RIGHT. 12 Q HOW ABOUT FORMULATION? 13 A THAT'S WHAT PROBABLY CONFUSED ME. I DID LOOK 14 AT SALES RECORDS, BUT I ALSO LOOKED AT MANUFACTURING 15 RECORDS. 16 Q RIGHT. 17 A AND THIS WAS PRESENTED TO ME AS A PRODUCT THAT 18 WE MADE FOR BENDIX FOR BRAKE PARTS. 19 Q OKAY. AND SO PAGE 2 IS WHAT EXACTLY? 20 A IT'S A SUMMARY OF WHAT 7335 IS -- 21 Q OKAY. SO -- 22 A -- IN A GENERAL WAY. THE SPECIFICS WOULD BE IN 23 THE FORMULATION SHEET. 24 Q UH-HUH. LET ME JUST -- I HAD SOME FOLLOWUP 25 HERE. ARE YOU ABLE TO TELL WHAT EACH OF THESE COLUMNS 74 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 REPRESENTS IN TERMS OF WHAT'S WRITTEN ON PAGE 2? 2 A YEAH. 3 Q FOR INSTANCE, THE TOP RIGHT CORNER HAS A 4 NUMBER, BMMA-7335 NT. 5 A YES, I AM. 6 Q OKAY. I KIND OF GUESSED FROM WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT EARLIER TODAY, BUT WHAT DOES THAT REFER TO? 8 A THIS IS PHENOLIC MOLDING, PHENOLIC. 9 Q UH-HUH. 10 A M IS MOLDING. THE THIRD IS A GRANULATION FORM 11 THAT'S IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, FINES -- REDUCED FINES. 12 A IS THAT THIS IS THE FIRST VERSION OF THIS PRODUCT THAT 13 SHOULD BE DROPPED IF IT BECOMES COMMERCIAL. THIS IS A 14 FAST-CURING TWO STEP. THIS JUST DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING 15 EXCEPT, YOU KNOW, A DESIGNATION OF THE PRODUCT ITSELF. 16 Q RIGHT. 17 A AND THAT'SNATURAL, NO COLOR. 18 Q OKAY. SO THE 7335 IS THE FORMULATION NUMBER 19 THAT YOU SPOKE ABOUT EARLIER TODAY? 20 A YES. 21 Q OKAY. BELOW THIS THERE IS A CATEGORY THAT SAYS 22 "PRODUCT TYPE CODE." DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT NUMBER 23 CORRESPONDS TO? 24 A I DON'T RECALL. NO. 25 Q OKAY. WHERE IT SAYS "PROCESSING MOLDING 75 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 RIGID," WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU OR REFER TO? 2 A IT'S FOR A MOLDING PROCESS AND THAT AFTER IT'S 3 CURED IT IS A VERY RIGID PRODUCT. 4 Q ARE YOU ABLE TO TELL JUST FROM THAT NOTATION OF 5 WHETHER THIS IS A PRODUCT THAT COULD BE USED IN A 6 FRICTION APPLICATION VERSUS HYDRAULIC APPLICATION? IN OTHER WORDS, IS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT THE MOLDING RIGID 8 THAT'S SIGNIFICANT IN DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN THOSE TWO 9 TYPES OF APPLICATIONS? 10 A KNOWING THAT WE NEVER MADE A MOLDING MATERIAL 11 FOR FRICTION PARTS, WHEN I SEE MOLDING, I WOULD KNOW 12 THAT THAT WOULD NOT GO INTO A FRICTION PART. 13 Q OKAY. THE NEXT THING WRITTEN ON PAGE 2 IS: 14 OTHER THAN STANDARD GRANULATION. WHAT IS THAT A 15 REFERENCE TO? 16 A STANDARD GRANULATION WOULD BE CONSIDERED 17 B.M.G., IN OTHER WORDS, CONSIDERED A HIGHER LEVEL OF 18 FINES. SO B.M.M. IS THE REDUCED FINES AND NOT -- 19 APPARENTLY NOT CONSIDERED STANDARD BY MANUFACTURING. 20 Q OKAY. SO DOES THAT REFERENCE SAYING -- OTHER 21 THAN STANDARD GRANULATION, DOES THAT IN ANY WAY HELP YOU 22 UNDERSTAND WHETHER OR NOT THIS IS A MATERIAL THAT WOULD 23 BE USED IN A FRICTION APPLICATION VERSUS A HYDRAULIC 24 APPLICATION? 25 I MEAN WE'RE GETTING KIND OF TECHNICAL HERE, 76 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White BUT IN OTHER WORDS, IS THAT SOMETHING THAT WOULD HELP YOU UNDERSTAND, "WELL, OBVIOUSLY IF THIS IS A STANDARD GRANULATION, THEN THERE'S NO WAY IT WOULD BE USED AS A FRICTION PRODUCT?" A GRANULATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT IT'S GOING TO BE A FRICTION MATERIAL OR NOT. Q OKAY. IN OTHER WORDS, IT'S NOT RELEVANT; RIGHT? A OKAY. Q FAIR ENOUGH. DON'T MAKE ME FEEL BAD. AND "APPLICATION BRAKE PARTS," YOU CAN'T TELL FROM JUST LOOKING AT THAT ANYTHING MORE SPECIFIC JUST FROM THIS DOCUMENT ITSELF OF WHAT IT'S GOING TO BE USED FOR? A IF IT WAS BRAKE LININGS, IT WOULD SAY BRAKE LININGS. BRAKE PARTS TO ME DOES NOT MEAN BRAKE LININGS. Q IT MEANS SOMETHING OTHER THAN BRAKE LININGS JUST FROM READING THAT? A YES. IT MEANS A MOLDED RIGID PART THAT IS USED IN THE BRAKE SYSTEM. AND AGAIN, I TOLD YOU BEFORE WE NEVER MADE A MOLDING MATERIAL FOR BRAKE LININGS. THEY WOULD REQUIRE AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT FORMULATION THAN WHAT WE USED FOR MOLDING. Q OKAY. ALL RIGHT. COULD YOU JUST KIND OF IN SUMMARY FASHION TELL ME IF YOU'RE ABLE TO IDENTIFY WHAT THE REMAINING PAGES OF EXHIBIT 2 ARE? AND WE ARE NOW ON 77 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White PAGE 3, AND JUST SO IT'S CLEAR ON THE RECORD, THE -- THE CORRESPONDING BATES STAMP NUMBER FOR PAGE 2 WAS UCASB00938672. AND SO PAGE 3 OF THIS EXHIBIT, THE CORRESPONDING BATES STAMP NUMBER IS UCASB00938673. SO IF YOU COULD JUST SUMMARIZE WHAT THIS PARTICULAR PAGE REFERS TO. A THESE ARE INSTRUCTIONS TO THE OPERATORS -- FOR THE OPERATORS AS TO HOW THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO SET THE VARIOUS COMPONENTS OF OUR MANUFACTURING PROCESS TO MAKE THIS PRODUCT. Q OKAY. IS THERE ANY WAY FROM LOOKING AT THAT PAGE THAT YOU CAN TELL ME THAT THE FORMULATION NO. 7335 HAD ASBESTOS IN IT? A NO. Q OKAY. OKAY. WHAT'S THE NEXT PAGE OF THIS DOCUMENT, WHICH IS PAGE 4 AND BATES STAMPED WITH -- THE LAST FOUR DIGITS OF THAT BATES STAMP ARE -8674? WHAT'S THAT PAGE? A THIS IS THE FORMULATION -- Q OKAY. A -- OF THE PRODUCT. IT LISTS THE INGREDIENTS AND THE QUANTITIES WHICH THE OPERATOR HAS TO PUT INTO THE BLENDER IN ORDER TO MAKE THE PRODUCT. Q OKAY. SO DOES THAT FORMULATION INDICATE TO YOU WHETHER OR NOT THERE'S ASBESTOS IN 7335? 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 A YES. 2 Q OKAY. HOW? 3 A THIS IS ASBESTOS, 18-Q. 4 Q IT SAYS RM-18-Q? 5 A YES. 6 Q WHAT MAKES YOU SAY THAT THAT MEANS -- REFERS TO 7 ASBESTOS AS A COMPONENT? 8 A I KNOW FROM OUR RAW MATERIAL PRODUCT CODE THAT 9 I -- THAT 1B-Q IS ASBESTOS. 10 Q OKAY. ALL RIGHT. AND THE NEXT PAGE OF THIS 11 DOCUMENT -- 12 MS. OBERG; IS VIRTUALLY ILLEGIBLE. 13 BY MR. JACKSON: 14 Q CAN YOU JUST TELL ME WHAT THAT IS IF YOU CAN 15 READ IT? 16 A LIKE THE PREVIOUS PAGE EXCEPT - 17 MS. OBERG: YEAH. I'M SURE -- 13 THE WITNESS: THIS IS A REVISION OF THE 10 PREVIOUS PAGE, FEBRUARY 1970, AND IT SUPERSEDES THE 20 PREVIOUS PAGE. 21 BY MR. JACKSON: 22 Q OKAY. SO IT STILL APPLIES TO THE SAME 23 FORMULATION NO. 7335; IT'S JUST REVISED AS OF FEBRUARY 24 1970? 23 A WELL, SOME CHANGE WAS MADE. 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 Q DOES IT STILL INDICATE TO YOU THAT THERE'S 2 ASBESTOS IN THAT FORMULATION? 3 A YES. 4 Q OKAY. AND LET'S MOVE TO THE LAST PAGE, WHICH 5 DOES NOT EVEN HAVE A BATES STAMP. THAT ONE'S REALLY 6 ILLEGIBLE. 7 MS. OBERG: YES, THERE IS A BATES STAMP. 8 BY MR. JACKSON: 9 Q JUST THE LAST FOUR DIGITS ON THE BATES STAMP 10 ARE THREE -- I'M SORRY --------8675 ARE THE LAST FOUR DIGITS 11 THERE. WHAT'S THAT LAST PAGE? 12 A A RAW MATERIAL CODE NUMBER CHANGE THERE FROM -- 13 DPM TO RM-52-D. IT LOOKS JUST THAT THEY CHANGED THE RAW 14 MATERIAL CODE FROM ONE SHEET TO THE OTHER. IT ISN'T 15 CLEAR FROM THIS WHETHER IT WAS A CHANGE, JUST THE -- WAS 16 IT THE PRODUCT? -- THE INGREDIENT WAS THE SAME, AND ONLY 17 THE CODE CHANGE OR WHETHER THERE WAS A CHANGE IN 13 MATERIAL AS WELL. THE REST ARE SCREEN -- SCREENS, THE 10 WAY THE SCREENS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SET UP IN ORDER TO 20 MAKE THE RIGHT FORMULATION. 21 Q OKAY. THANK YOU FOR THAT EXPLANATION 'CAUSE I 22 STRUGGLED FIGURING THAT STUFF OUT ON MY OWN. 23 A YOU SAID WHAT? 24 Q I STRUGGLED TRYING TO FIGURE THAT STUFF OUT ON 25 MY OWN. OKAY. JUST TO 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 A IT ISN'T EASY. I'LL GIVE YOU THAT. 2 Q TO KIND OF WRAP UP ON THE SUBJECT AND WRAP UP THE DEPOSITION: YOU HAD MENTIONED THAT THESE -- THAT 4 THE PHENOLIC MOLDINGS THAT WERE BEING SOLD TO BENDIX 5 WERE USED FOR SOME COMPONENT IN THE HYDRAULIC SYSTEM. 6 CAN YOU BE MORE -- 7 A WELL, IN THEBRAKE SYSTEM -- 8 Q RIGHT. 9 A -- IN -- AND I'M NOT THAT KNOWLEDGEABLEABOUT 10 THE FUNCTION OF VARIOUS PARTS BEYOND,YOU KNOW, THAT -- 11 THAT CLOSED THE BRAKE -- THAT APPLY THE-- THE PRESSURE 12 TO THE BRAKE LININGS TO STOP THE CAR. I -- BUT IT WOULD 13 BE COMPONENTS IN WHATEVER WAS IN THAT BACK SYSTEM. 14 WHETHER THEY'RE SUPPORT PLATES OR PARTS OF A PUMP OR 15 THAT, I DON'T KNOW. I'M NOT THAT FAMILIAR WITH THE 16 SYSTEM. 17 Q OKAY. YEAH. 'CAUSE THAT WAS THE --KIND OF 18 THE LAST LEG OF INQUIRY FOR ME IS: YOU'VE TOLD ME HOW 19 YOU UNDERSTOOD IT WASN'T USED FOR A FRICTION MATERIAL -- 20 A YES. 21 q -- BUT HOW DID YOU COME TO THE UNDERSTANDING 22 THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE USED AS SOME COMPONENT OF A 23 HYDRAULIC SYSTEM BY BENDIX? 24 A I JUST MENTIONED HYDRAULIC SYSTEM BECAUSE I 25 MADE THE ASSUMPTION THAT THAT IS WHAT IS THE BRAKE 81 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 SYSTEM. YOU HAVE TO APPLY PRESSURE TO THE BRAKE SYSTEM, 2 AND YOU HAVE TO MAKE -- YOU KNOW, PUT TOGETHER 3 COMPONENTS IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE THAT THE -- THAT THE 4 PRESSURE IS APPLIED TO THE BRAKES. WE WOULD KNOW THE 5 SPECIFIC PART WHEN WE WERE TRYING TO GET APPROVAL FOR 6 THE MATERIAL BECAUSE THEY WOULD TELL US, "WE WANT A PRODUCT FOR THIS PART WHICH IS GOING TO BE USED THIS 8 WAY." I CAN'T TELL WHAT THAT PART WAS FROM THESE 9 RECORDS. 10 Q DOES THE PERFORMANCE TESTING THAT YOU DO HELP 11 YOU UNDERSTAND THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE USED FOR A 12 HYDRAULIC SYSTEM? 13 A NO. 14 Q OKAY. 15 A OH, ONE THING THAT DOES GIVE ME A CLUE IS THAT 16 THERE WAS NO COLOR IN IT. NIGROSINE WAS REMOVED. 17 Q WHY DOES THAT MATTER? 18 A THE OIL WOULD EXTRACT THE NIGROSINE FROM THE 19 COMPOUND, AND THEY WOULD NOT WANT THEIR OIL 20 CONTAMINATED. THAT GIVES ME AN INDICATION THAT IT WOULD 21 BE IN CONTACT WITH SOMETHING THAT WOULD EXTRACT THE 22 COLORANT. 23 Q JUST GIVE ME A MINUTE TO ABSORB THAT. OKAY. 24 ANYTHING ELSE THAT -- THAT WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT 25 ALREADY AS A SUBJECT OF THIS DEPOSITION THAT HELPS YOU 82 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 IN YOUR CONCLUSION TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE PHENOLIC 2 MOLDING MATERIALS SOLD TO BENDIX WOULD HAVE BEEN USED AS 3 SOME COMPONENT OF A HYDRAULIC SYSTEM IN PARTICULAR? 4 A OTHER THAN WHAT I'VE TOLD YOU, NO. 5 Q OKAY. IN OTHER WORDS, I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU 6 DIDN'T DO ANY PERFORMANCE TESTING FOR FRICTION 7 APPLICATIONS. SO THAT OBVIOUSLY ELIMINATES THAT AS A -- 8 A YES. 9 Q BUT IN TERMS OF UNDERSTANDING HOW -- WHY IT 10 WAS -- OR HOW YOU KNOW IT WAS USED FOR A HYDRAULIC 11 APPLICATION, YOU'VE TOLD ME EVERYTHING YOU CAN THINK OF 12 AS FAR AS HOW YOU KNOW THAT. 13 A (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE). 14 Q IS THAT TRUE? 15 A THAT'S TRUE. 16 MR. JACKSON: OKAY. THEN I'M GOING TO STOP 17 THIS DEPOSITION THERE. 13 YEAH. THAT'S ALL I HAVE. I'LL GET BACK TO YOU 10 ON THE DOCUMENTS. 20 MS. OBERG: OKAY. 21 MR. JACKSON: I'LL JUST -- I KIND OF WANT TO 22 REPORT BACK TO MY SUPERIORS IN TERMS OF THE SUBJECT OF 23 THE DEPOSITION TODAY AND WHAT WAS COVERED. 24 MS. OBERG: OKAY. 25 MR. JACKSON: AND WE WILL LET YOU KNOW. SO I 83 9/2/2004 Martino, Carlo in White 1 RESERVE MY RIGHTS TO REQUEST THOSE DOCUMENTS 'CAUSE I 2 STILL THINK THAT'S PERMISSIBLE DISCOVERY, BUT WHETHER OR 3 NOT WE WILL NEED THEM OR NOT, I'LL LET YOU KNOW. 4 MS. OBERG: THAT'S FINE. 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