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FILE NAME Fibreboard FIB DATE 1984 DOC FIB025 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION Legal - Deposition of Henry A. Perlmutter with Barry Castleman Notes 1118-5878-0 TMJ a Dr. Henry Perlmutter , witness for Fibreboard Fibreboard Fibreboard med sch 1933 17 became asat < " hrs 29 from mornings dayp 37 Patrbiedco 38 ppllaantnttried keep all old 44 25 % to Dr. Wable at Fibreboard Fibreboard Fibreboard 1938 EmeryvilElmeeryville of allhishis patients Camefrom from Palco returned returned the War in 1946 to same as co doc at Pabeo , mornings dayp ick & call loadedradiologistradiologist Pabco workers workers Fong was used for X rays to ray tried the Dr. also consultceondsulted consulted consulted on chest chestXrays sent sent reports reports 47 Pabro 52 64 He Christopher Asis clse 6161 PabPraobro also madeleadedleaded ppaintaint roofing roofing at EmeryvilleEmeryvilleEmeryviEmlelreyville Perlomitton B. Christopher Adamson replacePerdlomit on Perlomitton affabin affabin affabin 19.50 Asinin affabin learnedabtabt Asinin mudical mudical school schsocohlool scho l jjooccioirorjociorto 1958 Hehasnever seen a caseof Asis at PPabacorbcoorPabcoor clse insulation insulation Everywille PabcoPabco asbeEsvteroywilleEverwywilhe ile anytime conscidoenrsider cancer an disease adequate exhaust 66 Dact control in ththee plant by very adequate at Palco exhaustfan copied by infips very 67 Pubco's dustcontrol waswas other Petro was strictabthaving sack ovearovear having openers respristor respristor by fabec 89 There were hundreds ofchestXraysrays ordered fabec & Harey Hopes system- designed 2525 were chest X rays rays 97 He was toltdold the X rays had 99 Harey designed designed that great 105.6 Noone NoonNoeone ever showed showed been destroyed dustcontrecontent contentcontent dust dust studies HP any dust studies Workers comfortable 110 said rubber masks weren't comfortable the weren't 125 In 1946-50 HP tooli on responsibility for incomp incompprogram attly plant Pabcocorporate Emeryville 126 HeHehad reodffidceer CorporaCtoerporate Corporate Emeryville ofi's in SF and Spac They called cacalleld ed him 130 EmeryvilleEmeryvilleEmeryville plantemployed 1570-7008 1570-7008 Periodic employed plant 131 heat were not take didn't Asis had 146-7 didn't know rays delayd delayed caxt caxt a delayed plant had just just 119941 41 20 The opened nwonder nwonder nwonder thing w eren'twweren't wweren't any ) Casio 164 tetereceivedreceivedHHMAMA HMA but has but has no recollection recollectiroen collection recollection the 1949 editorialeoditonrialon editorialon a shortes to ofaking have paid He would woulwdould expect to have that in this duties duties in 149 noteto THE ININ THETHE IN THE SUPERIOSUPERRIOR FOUR SUPERIOR SUPERIOR SUPERIOR SUPERIOR SUPERIOR SUPERIOR FOUR FOUR THE STATE IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF ALAMEDA OF CALIFORN _ 1 IN RE Fibreboard Plantworker Sey Asbestos Cases Kazan & Kilbourne See? Consolidated for Discovery Se _ See See IN RE Shipyard and Applicator ~ . ene Asbestos Cases Kazan & Kilbourne Sey Consolidated for Discovery Sane See Na IN RE Asbestos Cases Consolidated See? for Discovery tee Set tet IN RE Consolidated for Discovery See? Related Shipyard and Applicator Ne Cases Martin Harrison & DeGarmo See Set Se IN RE Sterns Brown & Finney Mea? Consolidated for Discovery Related Smell Shipyard and Applicator Asbestos Cases Ta Sea? meet IN RE Related Asbestos Cases ett Consolidated for Discovery Knapp ee ee No. 537064-7 1 XN No. 537868-7 No. 529948-7 No. 569084-0 No. 573686-9 No. 568328-4 GENERAL DISCOVERY FILE REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT of DEPOSITION of HENRY A. PERLMUTTER M.D. Videotaped Monday October 29 1984 Tuesday 30 1984 Reported by Harry A. Cannon Cert 68 CSR RECEIVED HARRY A. CANNON INC Certified Reporters and Notaries HIBERNIA BANK BLDG SUITE 550 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111 415 391-7421 THE ror PUoR e aE e OTIS IN AND SUPERIOR ME det Re COURT COURT ase fe FOR THE COUNTY STATE CALIFORNIA OTFCHOENTRA OF THETHESTATSE TATE STATE COSTA Beran creme weer OE Pages. 1 van t- 4 IN RE RELATED ASBESTOS CASES PETER SANDO Plaintiff on 2 vs. LINCOLN ELECTRIC et al Defendants el ee el ee te ee ee No. 247468 ee 1 1 ee REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT Or DEPOSITION DEPOSITION _ OF HENRY A. PERLMUTTER M.D. 1984 Videotaped y Monday October 29 Tuesday October 29 1984 Reported by HARRY A. CANNON Cert 68 CSR HARRY A. CANNON INC Certified Reporters and Notaries HIBERNIA BANK BLDG SUITE 550 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111 415 391-7421 FOr: Dae, : IN THaEe COURT IN SUPERIOR THE COURT COURT OFTHE SSTTATAE TE CALIFORNIA CALIFORNIA STATE IN AND FOR THE CITY AND COUNTY SAN CALIFORNIA oa ae ea - fi~ = IN RE Jennie Azzopardi and all Halley ) : Cornell & Lynch's and McCarthy Johnson ) Nos 783714 & 792978 & Miller's Related Asbestos Cases ) IN RE Related Asbestos Cases Consolidated for Discovery Knapp IN RE Sterns Brown & Finney cy Consolidated for Discovery Related Shipyard and Applicator Asbestos Cases IN RE Shipyard and Applicator Cases Brayton Clapper & Discovery Consolidated for IN RE Discovery for Related Shipyard Asbestos Cases Herron IN RE Consolidated for Discovery Related Shipyard and Applicator Cases Martin Harrison & DeGarmo ) No. 804896 GENERAL DISCOVERY FILE . ) No. ) ) ) No. ) . ) ) No. ) ) No. No. ) 805555 804416 795582 768071 NORMAN BANKS Plaintiff ) ) No. 791576 ) vs. - MANVILLE et al ) Defendants ) JOHN KOMAR et al ) vs. Plaintiffs } No. 771595 vs. } MANVILLE et al ) Defendants ) HELEN CALDWELL ) Plaintiff ) No. 765264 vs. ) MANVILLE et al ) Defendants ) REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT of DEPOSITION of HENRY A. PERLMUTTER M.D. Videotaped Monday October 29 1984 Tuesday October 30 1984 Reported by Harry A. Cannon Cert 68 CSR CAAN . CN ANNO ON N INC Certified Reporters and Notaries MIBERNIA BANK BLDG SUITE 550 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111 415 391-7421 IN AND SUPERIOR THE COUNTY OF SOLANO IN RE Clapper & Brayton ) Shipyard and Applicator Asbestos Cases Consolidated for Discovery| ) No. 959 \ E REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT of DEPOSITION of HENRY A. PERLMUTTER 11.D. Videotaped Monday Tuesday October October 29 30 1984 1984 Reported by Harry A. Cannon Cert 68 CSR HARRY A. CANNON INC Certified Reporters and Notaries HIBERNIA BANK BLDG SUITE 550 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111 415 391-7421 E 3 Ay tla IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA IN RE Related Asbestos Cases ) Sm 5 . } ) ) ) ) IN RE Related Asbestos Cases > Richard F. Gerry ) ) ) ) ) \ . No. 79-3588 RFP ~~ No. 83-6251 ALL CASES RFP REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT of DEPOSITION of HENRY A. PERLMUTTER Videotaped Monday October 29 Tuesday October 30 M.D. 1984 1984 Reported by HARRY A. CANNON Cert 68 CSR , HARRY A. CANNO INNC HIBERNIA BANK BLDG SUITE 550 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111 415 391-7421  iad oe SeaSoAS E.ae er i 1 QUESTIONS DIRECTED NOT TO ANSWER y 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 | 21 22 23 24 25 201 CALIFORNIA STREET LINE 91/3 98/75 | 112/6 112/8 113/4 113/10 116/11 117/13 135/14 154/1 159/19 163/5 166/17 167/4 173/19 205/11 205/20 207/15 HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE <4OR DEPOSITION OF HENRY A. PERLMUTTER Monday October 29 1984-1984- % Examination by y 10 MR DAGGETT MR KAZAN 11 SESSION 12 AFTERNOON 13 14 15 16 Tuesday October 30 1984 EXAMINATION BY 17 18 19 MR WARTNICK MR BURNS 20 21 MR DAGGETT 22 23 24 25 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC Page 15 73 70 182 209 195 207 202 TELEPHONE Number ay 1 Extract The Journal of the AMA Volume 140 pages 1219 and 1220 2 Extract PATHOLOGY An Introduction to 10 Medicine page document 11 y 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC Page TELEPHONE BE IT REMEMBERED that pursuant to Notice and Videotape Deposition and on Monday October 29 1984 commencing at the hour of 10:15 o'clock a.m. thereof at KQED 500 8th Street 4 Studio B San . at Francisco California before me HARRY A. CANNON a Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of California personally appeared HENRY A. PERLMUTTER M.D. oe called as a witness by Fibreboard Corporation who 10 being by me first duly sworn was thereupon examined 11 and testified as hereinafter set forth 12 13 --STEVEN KAZAN Attorney at Law 171 Twelfth 14 Street Suite 300 Oakland California 94607 15 appeared as counsel on behalf of plaintiffs and 16 CARTWRIGHT SUCHERMAN SLOBODIN & FOWLER 160 17 Sansome Street Suite 900 San Francisco j 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 California 94104 represented by HARRY F. WARTNICK Attorney at Law appeared as counsel on behalf of plaintiffs and KENNETH L. KNAPP Esquire 695 Town Center Drive 1000 Costa Mesa California 92626 represented by PATRICK BURNS Attorney at Law appeared on behalf of plaintiffs and HALLEY CORNWELL & LYNCH 25th Floor 50 me 201 CALIFORNIA STREET wre mimes CALIFORNIA CALIFORNIA CALIFORNICAALIFORNIA 01411 6001 HARRY A. CANNON INC RESOSITIONS RESOSITIONS NOTARIKO TELEPHONE 416.201.7101 416.201.7101 416.201.7101 a ( x . 1 California Street 94111 represented by J. KENNETH 2 LYNCH Attorney at Law appeared as counsel on 3 behalf of plaintiffs and | 4 MARTIN HARRISON & DeGARMO 501 Shatto Place 5 Suite 100 Los Angeles California 90820 - | 6 represented by GUY LEWIS Attorney at Law appeared 7 on behalf of plaintiffs and PHLEGER 8 BROBECK & HARRISON One Market Plaza 9 : Spear Street Tower San Francisco California 94105 10 represented by ROBERT S. DAGGETT Attorney at Law 11 appeared as counsel on behalf of Fibreboard D 12 Corporation and 13 ROPERS MAJESKI KOHN BENTLEY & WAGNER 655 14 Montgomery Street Suite 1600 San Francisco 15 California 94111 represented by EUGENE J. MAJESKI 16 Attorney at Law and THOMAS C. NORTON Attorney at i 17 Law appeared as counsel on behalf of Fibreboard | 18 Corporation and 19 WINNINGHAM ROBERTS FAMA and THOMPSON 425 20 California Street 4th Floor San Francisco 21 California 94104 represented by LYNN M. PETTUS 22 Attorney at Law appeared as counsel on behalf of 23 Eagle Picher Industries Inc and F 24 MCCUTCHEN DOYLE BROWN & ENERSEN Three 25 Embarcadero Center San Francisco California 94111 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415 - 391-7421 represented by KEVIN K. CHOLAKIAN Attorney at Law appeared as counsel on behalf of GAF and MULLALLY & CEDERBORG Oakland California 94612 1405 Central Building 1 represented by LAURIE K. ANGER Attorney at Law appeared as counsel on behalf of Keene Corporation and & 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 HARDIN COOK LOPER ENGEL & BERGEZ 2300 Ordway Building One Kaiser Plaza Oakland California 94612-3686 represented by ROBERTA E. NALBANDIAN Attorney at Law appeared as counsel on behalf of Western MacArthur and BLEDSOE CATHCART BOYD ELIOT & CURFMAN 650 California Street Suite 2828 San Francisco California 94108 represented by KATHERYN L. ANDERSON Attorney at Law appeared as counsel on behalf of Flexitallic Gasket Company Inc and HOOPER KENDALL & KUBANCIK 499 - 15th Street 18 19 20 21 22 Suite 401 Oakland California 94612 represented by JOSEPH J. KUBANCIK Attorney at Law appearing for ST CLAIR ZAPPETTINI MCFETRIDGE & GRIFFIN 235 Montgomery Street Suite 635 San Francisco California 94104 as counsel for Nicolet and 23 Law Offices of WILLIAM DUKE 433 California 24 Street Suite 330 San Francisco California 94111 25 represented by CHARLENE P. ROSACK Attorney at Law 201 CALIFORNIA STREET CAN CAN FRANCISCO FRANCISCO FRANCISCO FRANCISCO FRANCISCO FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA CALIFORNIA CALIFORNIA CALIFORNIA CALIFORNIA oe ee ee HARRY A. CANNON INC en TELEPHONE appeared as counsel on behalf of H.K. Porter Company Inc and : LAW OFFICES OF JOHN J. MURRAY First Interstate Bank Building 702 Marshall Suite 250 Redwood City California 94063 represented by JEROME - HARRISON Attorney at Law appeared as counsel on behalf of United States Gypsum and HASSARD BONNINGTON ROGERS & HUBER -3500 Wells Fargo Building 44 Montgomery Street San Francisco 10 California 94104 represented by EMILY BROCKMAN 11 legal assistant appeared as counsel on behalf of T 12 Pittsburg Corning and 13 -GUDMUNDSON SIGGINS & STONE 235 Montgomery 14 Street Suite 710 San Francisco California 94104 15 represented by SUSAN PIERCE Attorney at Law 16 appeared as counsel on behalf of Armstrong World 17 Industries Inc and 18 POPELKA ALLARD McCOWAN & JONES 601 19 20 21 22 23 Montgomery Street Suite 2022 San Francisco California 94111 represented by CAMILLA D. COCHRAN Attorney at Law appeared as counsel on behalf of Owens Corning Fibreglass and STEVENS & DRUMMOND 1910 Olympic Boulevard 24 Suite 250 Walnut Creek California 94596 25 represented by GARY T. DRUMMOND Attorney at Law i 201 CALIFORNIA STREET ee ee ee eee ee eee oPOeAA a a 500450045004 HARRY A. CANNON INC ACRATIZIA ACRAN TIZIANOONOTARIFE NOTARIFE NOTARIFE NOTARIFE NOTARIFE NOTARIFE TELEPHONE 116 8 2017101 2017101 E appeared on behalf of ACL and LA FOLLETTE JOHNSON SCHROETER & DE HAAS 100 Van Ness Avenue 19th Floor San Francisco California represented by Wee foal 5 MELANIE SCHROETER Clerk appeared on Flin oftFk lio ntt koe te and Law ERICKSEN ARBUTHNOT MCCARTHY KEARNEY & WALSH Inc. Pier 1-1 The Embarcadero San Francisco California LUEBKEMAN 94111 represented by THEODORCE. Attorney at Law appeared as counsel 10 behalf of NAAC 11 12 ALSO PRESENT ROBERT A. BECK Esquire 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415 - 391-7421 HENRY A. PERLMUTTER - being first duly sworn testified as follows rs 1 MR DAGGETT are on the stenographic . record Don't roll the tape yet : This deposition is taken at this time and place by notice served and filed in the cases in which the deposition is being taken I am Robert Daggett : appearing as counsel for the witness Dr. Henry 10 Perlmutter and also as counsel for Fibreboard 11 Because of certain minor conditions of health 12 commonly associated with Dr. Perlmutter's age We 13 are going to break at four o'clock this afternoon 14 and resume if necessary at this time and place at 15 16 ten o'clock tomorrow morning At the moment we are on the stenographic record 17 only and the video tape has not begun to run 18 Does any counsel have any observation comment 19 objection or anything else that would be more 20 appropriate to the stenographic record than the 21 22 video tape record All right Hearing no such shall we run the 23 tape Following proceedings on videotape 24 25 EXAMINATION BY MR DAGGETT 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE MR DAGGETT Dr. Perlmutter now that you have your taken the oath as a witness will full name sir >s ~ . A. Henry Abbott Perlmutter you \ \ \ tell us - Q. Where do you live A. I live in Tucson Arizona at 460 Valle Del Oro Road What is your profession 10 I am a surgeon who has retired this year 11 You are retired and not actively 12 practicing at this time 13 -A That's correct 14 15 16 Q. Where did you go to medical school A. Northwestern University Medical School Q. When did you attend Northwestern 17 A. From 1933 through 1937 18 Q. Did you receive the M.D. degree in 19377 19 A. At Northwestern at that time at the 20 21 22 23 completion of the academic work a Bachelor of Medicine was conferred and after the required year internship the M.D. was given to each candidate 24 Q. Where did you take your internship 25 A. At Santa Clara County Hospital in San 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 16 | ; as an co ee a eae y= . oo 2 Q. In California . 3 A. Correct 4 Q. And over year was that doctor . 1937-38 5 A. That was - 16 Q. After you took your internship at Santa 7 Clara what did you do 8 A. I went into general practice 9 | Q. Where did you do that 10 A. At Berkeley California and I also did 11 half time industrial work at Fibre -- at that time 12 it was Pabco in Emeryville 13 Q. How did you come to locate your general 14 practice in Berkeley 15 A. I was looking in the Physicians Register 16 and looking for some senior doctor who had graduated 17 from Northwestern and there was a typographical 18 error in the Register and instead of Illinois 6 -- 19 16 from his school the 1 was obliterated and it 20 said Illinois 6 which was the code for 21 Northwestern University Medical School When I Baw 22 his age which was in the late seventies I called 23 him and asked him if I could come and talk to him 24 which I did and we discussed the possibility of his 25 taking on an assistant And I was hired half time 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 1 at Pabco and I opened an office a couple of miles | 2 away from the plant . 3 Q. Who was this doctor who was either 4 typographically accurately or inaccurately Illinois | , * 5 6 - 6 A. His name was Henry Wahle 7 Q. Did he have a practice in Berkeley at that 8 time ~. 7 9 A. No. He did no private practice He had 10 retired from private practice years ago He had 11 come to California and worked in the shipyards for a 12 "- 13 14 15 16 17 while as a physician during the war Q. Was Dr. Wahle at Pabco at the time you first talked to him A. Yes he was Q. And as a result of your conversations with Dr. Wahle did you become a time physician at 18 Pabco 19 A. Yes I became a part physician after 20 21 our discussion Q. As Dr. Wahle's assistant 22 A. Yes 23 Q. When was this 24 A. This was in 1938 25 Q. And then at the same time did you open an 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415-391-7421 415-391-7421 415-391-7421 1 office for the general practice of medicine in - 2 Berkeley . 3 A. Yes I did 4 Q. Where was that \ I think ,, , A. That was up - it was Shattuck > 6 Avenue It was in the American Trust Building 7 Q. When you opened your office for general 8 practice in Berkeley did you practice by yourself or || ~ 9 with some at first yy 10 11 12 13 14 A. I Was a solo practitioner Q. All right Did you work five days a week at Pabco or some other number of days a week A I worked five days a week and I was on call at other times 15 Q. What hours in the day did you work at 16 Pabco at the beginning 17 A. From eight o'clock until noon 18 Q. Mornings 19 20 A. Correct Q. And what did you do with your afternoons 21 A- I took care of my private practice 22 Q. What was nature of your private practice 23 in Berkeley 24 A. I was a general practitioner and I stayed 25 in this type of practice for many years 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415-391-7421 415-391-7421 415-391-7421 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Now tell me again 80 We are very clear on it Doctor what was the year you began working as a part plant physician at Pabco A. To the best of my recollection was . % . 1938 immediately after I had finished my internship Q. All right 19387 A. Now wait a second It was either late '38 or early '39 me Q. It is only about thirty years ago isn't it A. Yes Q. Tell us please what were the nature of your duties at the Pabco plant as a plant physician . beginning in 1938 A. I was instructed by Dr. Wahle to take care of patients as they came into the medical department I was to decide whether the particular injury that was sustained - because most of the people coming on sick call were there because of trauma -- I took -- I would take care of them and send them back to work if they were able to work or send them home If I saw that they had something that was an illness that had been taken care of by their private physician or that they had some disease entity that needed continuous care then they were referred to 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE their private doctor - Q. Tell us in language a juror might better understand what you mean by trauma any A. Trauma is any injury sustained during laceration particular condition a cut a - fracture of a bone a foreign body in the eye Q. All right Now did your attention to and treatment of a worker at Pabco differ according to whether the injury or condition the person had was 10 work connected or not work connected on the job or 11 not on the job 12 A. Would you explain -- 13 0 Yes Maybe that's too long a question 14 A. Yes 15 16 Q. If somebody came in with a connected injury an the injury what was the nature of 17 18 19 20 21 22 the care you gave A. If it was a minor surgical procedure such as laceration we would suture the wound and dress it and have the patient come in for dressings daily until it was healed If it was a fracture and it was serious we would call a specialist in 23 orthopedics 24 Q. Suppose a case in which a worker came into 25 the plant in the morning after he bumped his head in 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE is 1 car accident the night before would you treat 2 that any differently What would you do there 3 A. Well we would examine the patient and ask 4 him what symptoms he had If he had headaches or indicate that 5 double vision or something would : | 67 possibly serious trauma he would be sent back to 67 his private physician for treatment 8 0. Did you take care of workers Pabco who . 9 had a work connected injury or complaint 10 A. Yes We took care of minor things like 11 upper respiratory infections minor dermatitis 12 condition 13 | ..Q Did you refer those people to their 14 15 private doctors A. If it warranted serious follow up yes 16 17 If it was just something that could be taken care of in one or two visits we would handle it 18 Q. And was there any difference in the way 19 20 you treated the injuries or conditions A. You mean were there two different classes 21 of treatment 22 Q. Well was the length of the treatment and 23 the scope of the treatment any different with 24 job injuries or conditions than those that 25 were not job 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 4111.5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415 - 391-7421 y A. We took care of them if we accepted treating them until they were okay and needed no further treatment Q. What was your practice with respect to referring people to their own private physicians at the Pabco plant A. If they had anything that we considered serious we care of the would call individual the and physician who was taking discuss the problem and 10 the findings on examination that we had with their 11 doctor 12 Q. Were medical specialists available to you 13 for consultation and treatment of patients at the 14 15 16 Pabco plant A. Yes they were Q. What kinds of specialists were available 17 A. We had orthopedists general surgeons 18 pulmonary or chest physicians we had 19 ophthalmologists -- dermatologists that we would 20 send skin conditions that we felt were beyond our 21 scope of treatment -- and anything else that would 22 require specialty training 23 Q. All right Did you typically refer Pabco 24 employees to a specialist if the patient's complaint 25 was for job work connected problems 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE oy Bagge A. We'd ask them first if they had their own physician and to go to see their physician and they might be referred by their physician but we did not 1 tell them where to go for medical treatment if they . medical had their own doctor - Q. Did you refer connected injuries to specialists that were available to you ~ A. Yes Q. Who paid for them in the case of 10 connected injuries 11 A. Our insured department 12 Q. Was your work at the Pabco plant related 13 in some fashion or other to workmen's compensation 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A. Yes Q. How was that MR KAZAN Excuse me Let me object for the record on the grounds of ambiguity You haven't developed it but the doctor had several tenures at Pabco during which his duties may have differed from time to time And since you have not defined the time with which this question deals I think it's 22 23 vague MR DAGGETT I will define the time now 24 And then I will get to later times in a minute 25 Q. I am talking about the first year or so 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE x,Fina, we you were at Pabco Doctor What connection or association was there between your duties as you understood it and at the plant A. We would workmen's compensation for people 4 : \ \ . file a first report of injury and decide that the patient needed treatment that he might or might not have to be taken off the job and we would decide what treatment the follow up would fall under was the necessary and usual routine for industrial 10 accidents that was carried on all over 11 12 13 the state The only difference was instead of being with a private insurance company the company took care their own insurance 14 Q. The company was self insured 15 16 17 A. Right Q. All the time you were at Pabco it was insured 18 A. Correct 19 Q. And will you tell us whether or not in the 20 case of an job injury or condition Pabco paid 21 for the treatment by you and also for any 22 specialties 23 A. I didn't have dual compensation I was 24 paid on a monthly basis and - unless it were after 25 work hours and then I would charge the usual 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE industrial fee Q. You were paid a salary by Pabco A. Correct . \ was , Q. How much was that A. Initially it was at around 115 or 125- This was -- Q. A. Was that a day Doctor It Was a month 10 Q. A month thirties This was in the late nineteen 11 A. '38 when the depression had hit the Coast 12 very hard 13 14 15 16 0. Do you know how the specialists to whom you referred workers with the injuries were paid Do you know anything about that A. The specialists 17 Q. Yes 18 A. Yes They adhered to the fee schedule set 19 up by the California Industrial Commission 20 21 22 23 24 Q. Now from time to time did a worker you saw at Pabco become a patient of yours in your general practice office in Berkeley A. Yes they did Q. Will you tell us whether or not one of the 25 reasons you took the job at Pabco in those 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 1 depression years was to help you build a private . 2 practice . . 3 A. That's correct 4 Q. Can you give us any order of magnitude large 5 about how many or how a group of Pabco workers st 6 became patients in your general practice office 7 A. Well I had a successful practice 8 personal practice from the time I started Dr. 9 Wahle would refer patients to me He never -- many 10 of the workers wanted to see Dr. Wahle as a private 11 physician and he explained repeatedly that he did 12 not do any private practice but that he had a young 13 trained nice physician with him and he 14 referred them to me 15 Q. Can you give us any estimate even though 16 its thirty odd years later of approximately 17 how many patients a year at the beginning in your 18 general practice office came from the Pabco plant 19 A. I would say percentage it would be 20 twenty percent of my patients came from Pabco 21 22 roughly Q. All right Now if a Pabco worker came in 23 to your general practice office as a patient will 24 you tell us whether you believed yourself to be 25 responsible for the general health care of that CALERANCISCO 201 CALIFORNIA STREET CALERANCISCO CALERANCISCO CALIFORNIA CALIFORNIA 04111.5001 04111.5001 HARRY A. CANNON INC ISITIONS . NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415- 415- 391-7421 so e te S E TT patient to the extent he brought his problems to you A. Yes And that they weren't industrial If I saw him I would sometimes feel that this was a problem that was due to his work and I'd ask him why he didn't see me down at the Pabco medical center- there And I would tell him to go there and I wouldn't take care of him privately the Q. Let me see if I can get this straight If could person had an the injury then he 10 see you at the Pabco plant without paying any 11 professional fee 12 A. Correct 13 Q And if he came to your general practice 14 15 office and paid a fee normally would that be because he did not have a workmen's comp job 16 condition or injury 17 A. Correct 18 Q. All right Now how long after you 19 started in 1938 did you stay at Pabco as a physician 20 A. Well I stayed until 1942 when World War 21 22 23 II broke out Q. And when World War II broke out then did you do something else 24 A. Yes 25 Q. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET What did you do HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE A. Did you say what What didI do Q. Yes I don't want all your war stories Doctor you did Pabco but can you just give us during World War when ~ in a brief V way what you were at . - A. I was in the army initially in an infantry division following which I was sent overseas and was referred to the Surgeon's Office and I worked in the Surgeon's Office for some time 10 Actually I was never officially on the rolls of the 11 Surgeon's Office but they had me on detached service 12 from the 36th General Hospital which was the Wayne 13 14 University Q. Were you in the army as a doctor 15 16 A. Q. Yes How long were you in 17 A. I was in approximately four years 18 Q. What was your rank 19 A. I went in as a first lieutenant and I came 20 out as a lieutenant colonel 21 Q. All right When did you come out 22 23 A. Q. Let's see -- 19 -- 1946 What did you do then when you came out 24 A. I came back and saw Dr. Wahle and he was 25 eager to see me and he said he was leaving and I 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC ene TELEPHONE C 304201 304201  won't go into it in any details but he just left Q. How old was Dr. Wahle then if you know A. Gosh he was around eighty Q. And you came back from the war and: saw Dr. ~ Wahle is that right - - A. Correct Q. Did you return to time employment at Pabco 10 11 A. Q. Yes I did Were the hours and the days the same mornings five days a week 12 A. Yes 13 -Q Did you -- 14 A. And on call subsequently 15 Q. Yes Did you resume your general practice 16 in Berkeley 17 A. I did 18 Q. At the same address in the American Trust 19 Building or at a different place 20 A. No. I moved to 1611 San Pablo where I 21 bought a duplex and converted one side to medical 22 23 offices Q. And lived in the other side 24 A. 25 Q. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET Yes Initially How long after you got back from the army HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE in 1946 did you continue at Pabco A. Until roughly 1950. It had always been my intent -- Q. No just tell me how long it was you continued at Pabco - A. From roughly 1950 Q. And during period 1946 to 1950 did you also have your general practice on San Pablo in Berkeley 10 A. Yes 11 Q. Now did your duties responsibilities or 12 regimen at Pabco change at any time between 1938 and 13 1950 allowing for the period you spent in the army 14 A. Well slightly 15 Q. How is that 16 A. I did everything as before I was in 17 charge of Emeryville and Dr. Wahle had been in 18 charge of all the various offices medical offices 19 but I only had responsibility to Emeryville 20 Q. After Dr. Wahle left were there any 21 changes 22 A. Yes 23 Q. What were they 24 A. Instead of Dr. Wahle running the 25 insured program the San Francisco office took 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that over and I would be consulted regarding the people at Pabco . Pabco Q. The San Francisco office of took over the A. insurance ~~ - - Well that's where the insured office was Q. All right Who was in charge of that do you know A. I don't remember who was in charge at that time Subsequently I heard that Mrs. Hanson had been Q. what you All we are knew during interested in here your time at Pabco today is between 1938 and 1950 allowing for the war allowing for being gone for the war Now taking into account that there were some changes in the insured workers compensation program when Dr. Wahle left did your duties responsibilities as a physician at the Pabco plant in the mornings change A. No. Except as I mentioned that I would have to discuss the length of time an individual would be staying off and whether that case should go to trial or whatever Q. By a case going to trial you mean if a worker had an job injury that needed to have a hearing -- 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Board A. ~~ before the Workmen's Compensation we Correct - Q. And after Dr. Wahle left did your responsibilities as a doctor also include people going off work A. Yes for injury and returning to work " It always -- I always had that responsibility If it were a problem case I would discuss it in consultation with Dr. Wahle but -- either I would do it or during the times when I was on vacation and someone else was taking my place the decision would be made by the doctor Q. All right Is my arithmetic right that you were at your duties as a physician at Pabco part time for about eleven or twelve years up to 1950 except for your absence in the army A. From 1938 until 1950 minus four years in the service Q. All right Did you come to know or have any idea during that period how common or uncommon it was for a manufacturing company like Pabco to have a medical department right in the plant A Well it was not common y MR KAZAN Excuse me I am going to object and move to strike the answer as nonresponsive MR DAGGETT Q. Go ahead and answer the question Doctor I think it was responsive It * . may have been a little bit broad but that's the only way I know at the moment how- MR KAZAN You asked him if he knew 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 MR DAGGETT Oh I see o MR KAZAN And that calls for a yes or no answer ay MR DAGGETT All right Q. Doctor they want you to be a little bit precise here Did you come to know how common or uncommon it was in the Bay Area for manufacturing plants like Pabco to have a medical department at the plant The question is did you come to know that 18 19 20 21 A. I would say there were -- Q. Doctor they want to know -- the lawyers want to know just if you knew that or if you didn't come to know that 22 23 24 A. Well yes Q. See this is what lawyers do A. Yes 25 Q. 201 CAL IFORNIA IFORNIA STREET Yes you came to know that is that what MADDY MADDY A CANNON INIC memes mmm ttm 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you're saying A. Yes I came to know that Q. what did All right Now the question know about you come to know about that is N Doctor A. I knew that there weren't many industrial companies that had a medical department on the premises did Q. Did you know anybody else who A. I knew the sugar refinery in Crockett had a full -- I think they had a full time or half time I don't know but they had a medical deparment Q. What company was that do you remember A. C or -- Q. C A. C Q. All right Did you know anybody else who had a medical department part time or not A. Let's see now No one in Emeryville that I can recall There were some steel companies that I heard had it but didn't know personally Q. All right Can you give us a kind of a best description in words as you can of where the medical department was at the Pabco plant and what it consisted of what the floor plan or layout was A. It was a small department in relation to 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the number of square feet It consisted of two examining and consultation rooms These were jointly used as both examining rooms and as consultation rooms There was a much larger room taken up by the nurse with her records and files and with the area where she would clean instruments and autoclave them - Q. Was there one nurse or more than one nurse . at any given time A. At the time I was there there was always one nurse and for a time we had a secretary also Q. Was the nurse a registered nurse or some other classification A. The nurse in the medical deparment was always an RN Q. All right When did the secretary start to work there if you recall A. I don't recall exactly Q. What did the nurse do A. The nurse would help me in the event that there was a suturing that had to be done and she had to bring the instruments and help prep the area and hand me the instruments if need be These were minor 80 that she always could do it very easily Q. By minor do you mean minor office io 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ieee surgical procedure A. Q. A. Q. Minor office surgical procedure Like stitching up cuts \ . . Right Se % Anything else A. That's all -- well foreign bodies removed from the eye foreign bodies removed from the fingers avulsion of finger nails a good dressing could be applied and tidying up so : Q. Cleaning up the wound do you mean A. Yes cleaning up the wound when the fingernail is avulsed the shreds of tissue This was relatively common injury Q. If somebody broke an arm or a leg while working at Pabco did you set the fracture at the plant A. No we did not Q. Did you have an ray machine at the plant A. No we did not Q. plant Did you ever have an ray machine at the A. We never did Q. A. Did you take rays at the plant Never -~ well rays were taken at the plant under only one condition . Q. What was that - A. That was when the Alameda County TB Association sent the mini-- mini films of Q. The chests kind of =. &, Ne truck the vans out to \ that we . can all take step into off the street sometimes to have a chest picture taken A. Q. . _ That's right But Pabco and you as Pabco's time 10 physician took no rays 1 A. No. We purposely did not 12 Q. Why purposely 13 .A Because We felt that we needed a qualified 14 15 16 technician to do it and we needed a qualified radiologist to examine the -- to read the film Q. When rays were taken of Pabco workers 17 18 19 20 21 22 where were they taken and who took them A. We sent them to Providence Hospital some to Meritt occasionally to Herrick Hospital and fairly frequently to a private radiologist who was boarded in radiology and who did only radiology His name was Edward Fong And I don't know if he's 23 24 still in practice or not Q. Was there some reason that you used the 25 radiologist at times at least who was not on the 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 7 staff of a hospital A. Yes Q. Why was that A. Because the hospitals were considerably busier than the private radiologists and we got - just superb service If we wanted an ray and we wanted to see it right away it would be delivered to us Q. When rays were taken away from the Pabco 10 plant of Pabco workers what happened to the ray 11 films 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 A. The ray films were ordinarily transferred to our department mailed to us or some would personally deliver them But in several instances -- well quite a few actually -- the hospital kept the ray in their files and if We knew that it was there we requested they be sent There weren't many But every so often we Were informed by the hospital that it was time to get rid of their old rays and they were going to destroy 21 them unless we wanted them Well of course We 22 wanted them We kept all our rays in two large 23 24 ray filing cabinets Q. So you kept or tried to keep rays at the 25 Pabco plant 301 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A CANNON INC TELEPHONE TELEPHONE TELEPHONE ~ A. Yes 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. Where were they kept there A. They were kept right next to where the nurse's desk was located , * . Q. In some kind of cabinet = A. Yes Specially constructed ray cabinets that were universally used in hospital and elsewhere Q. right A. An ray cabinet for the rays is that . Correct It's a much larger filing cabinet than usual Q. All right During the time you were a time physician at Pabco allowing for your four years away in the army did you belong to any professional associations or groups concerned with industrial medicine A. Yes I did had forgotten about it before I joined when they had the -- when they formed the Western Industrial Society -- I can't even recall the name of the group Q. Some kind of Western Industrial Society A. Yes Q. And you joined A. An offshoot of the American Industrial 0 25 whatever 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE Did you go to meetings of that group A. I only went to two as I recollect One Was the -- I can't remember the name of the doctor the behind who was at & but he was spark plug | the organization of the group - Q. Was it a local San Francisco Bay Area group or a West Coast group A. I can't recall exactly Q. Did you stop going while the organization 10 continued or did the organization stop 11 A. They didn't stop because I left 12 13 14 15 16 Q. -A Q. A. Q. Did leave you It was never too -- Doctor my question was Did I leave Did you stop going did you leave 17 A. Yes 18 Q. Why did you 19 A. Well I didn't think it was a very 20 effective organization 21 22 Q. Why not A. There was no tremendous enthusiasm for the 23 group The programs were very pedestrian and didn't 24 seem worthwhile 25 Q. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET Do you remember what the programs were HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE about ; A. Well there were discussions about trauma and different problems and I can't remember any 0 - \ the programs _ os, Q. Did you belong to any other associations during your time at Pabco which you understood was interested in or had to do with industrial medicine 10 11 12 A. No I did not Q. Did you during your time at Pabco read any professional literature for doctors which you considered to be directly related to your work at Pabco 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did you get any publications at your 15 general practice office 16 17 A. No I did not Q. You did not 18 19 20 21 22 A. When you say publications are you referring to industrial publications -- Q. Yes A. -- or just medical ones Q. No I am referring now to publications 23 directed to industrial medicine 24 A. 25 Q. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET I might have I can't recall Did you read while you were at Pabco any HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE professional publications for doctors having to do with the general practice of medicine as opposed to industrial medicine A. Yes a | Q. What were they ~ A. Well I had joined the American Medical Association and read the Journal of the American ~~ Medical Association regularly Q. Did you ever stop doing that before 1950 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you read anything else to keep up to | 12 date 13 14 A. Well I also read some -- the New England Journal and I took that for a short time 15 Q. For how short a time 16 A. Oh approximately a year or less 17 Q. Now was it your practice to read these 18 publications from cover to cover enthusiastically or 19 in some other way 20 A. I would consult the index and see what 21 articles I was particularly interested in I read 22 most of the Journal - 23 24 Q. A. 25 Q. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET Did - Excuse me -~ of the American Medical Association Did you have any medical texts in the HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 1 medical deparment at Pabco 7 : 2 A. We did not : 3 Q. Did you have any medical texts in your 4 general practice office Berkeley before the war . 5 and after the war - 6 A. I had some Most of my texts were at home 7 Q. I beg your pardon 8 A. I said I had some in the office most > 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 of my texts were at home Q. Were at home Did you have a practice of buying new medical texts or adding medical texts to your library during the time you were at Pabco A. Q. Yes I did What if you remember did you add or buy A. Well I read - I'd bought some texts on orthopedics texts on minor surgery textbooks of 17 medicine 18 0. Let me go back for a moment to something 19 we talked about a little bit earlier Among the 20 specialists you said you referred Pabco workers to 21 you mentioned chest specialists 22 A. Yes 23 24 Q. Can you recall the names of some of the people in the chest specialty that you referred 25 Pabco workers to 201 CALIFORNIA STREET CAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415 - 391-7421 A. We referred all our chest problems to Dr. Harold Trimble's group I -- Q. Where was Dr. Trimble Oakland A. He was in \ on Pill Hill And . he had a large effective group I remember Dr. Eaton and -- I can't remember the other names slip my memory it's been so long They just | Q. Are you able to tell us in general terms the circumstances in which you would refer a Pabeo 10 worker to Dr. Trimble as a chest specialist 11 A. If after examining a patient who had some 12 respiratory complaints and doing a physical on the 13 patient taking a history if we felt that the 14 15 patient should have an ray We ordered an ray And we would call Dr. Trimble and tell him where the 16 17 18 19 20 ray was Usually -- both Dr. Fong and Providence Hospital was virtually across the street or slightly kittycorner from Dr. Trimble's office and he would go and look at the rays and I would send the patient to him if he thought he should see him 21 Q. Was it Dr. Trimble's practice in chest 22 cases to provide you at Pabco with a report 23 A. Dr. Trimble after seeing the ray or 24 seeing the patient he always phoned and discussed 25 the patient with me and always sent a written report wea hi 201 CALIFORNIA STREET ma tnivri ec am m CALIFODALA CALIFODALA CALIFODALA 0411 6001 HARRY A. CANNON INC BraaNITIALS NOTARITO NOTARITO NOTARITO TELEPHONE ear 3042125 3042125 for our records . Q. Were those reports of Dr. Trimble kept someplace A. Yes NSN oY Q. Where - A. They were kept in a special file where we had our initial history and physicals when the employee was first given a employment physical | and any reports were then stapled to this form 10 which was a soft cardboard piece of paper 11 Q. If you are able to do so recall for us 12 please in general what kind of chest symptoms were 13 referred by you to Dr. Trimble in the case of Pabco 14 15 16 17 workers A. If the patient had any chest discomfort if he had a cough if he would be cyanotic there would be some discoloration in the peripheral blood 18 in the hands or even in the face and we would -- 19 20 Q. Maybe you better stop for a minute and tell the jury what cyanotic means It sounds just 21 22 awful A. Yeah If the individual would have a 23 24 change in color this would be due to the fact that there was not enough oxygen in his system and the 25 blood in the tissues would be darker 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 10 11 12 13 Q. In the case of such chest symptoms Were you able to tell right there at the plant examining the patient whether the complaint was connected or not connected. fi 4, % . A. If the patient -- if the employee worked in an area that was hazardous from the standpoint of | breathing if there was a lot of dust if he was complaining about the atmosphere in his workplace | we would want a checkup by a specialist to see whether this was work related and would explain to the specialist before he was seen what sort of job he was doing and what were the atmospheric conditions where he worked 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. Was there dust manufacturing dust generated in some parts of the Pabco manufacturing plants A. Yes there was Q. Where were they What parts A. Well they were in the asbestos area where asbestos was used 21 22 23 24 Q. Anything else A. In the roofing Q. In the roofing Anything else A. There was some wood dust in the floor 25 covering 201 CALIFORNIA STREET mM ahh rena nirmimme ALFORNIA ALFORNIA 4444 R001 HARRY A. CANNON INC JERAQITIGLIO NOTADICO NOTADICO NOTADIN CO OTADICO TELEPHONE a4 30171 30171 Floor covering Anything else A. Well there was dust in various places Q. Incidentally Doctor while you were at Pabco was there a paint manufacturing operation there - A. Yes there was Q. Was there any testing of employees in the paint manufacturing operation for any dangerous | substance 10 A. Yes 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q. What was that A. There was lead used in the manufacture of paint we had one or two people who had lead poisoning or beginning lead poisoning The laboratory results indicated lead poisoning And as a result we regularly every year would run tests on paint workers to be sure they were not developing any lead poisoning Q. What was done with the one or two 20 employees who developed lead poisoning 21 A. We called in consultant who was an 22 internist interested in this problem and who had 23 24 extensive knowledge of the problem We treated the individuals We called in the foreman and the 25 superintendent of the paint area and we felt that 201 CALIFORNIA STREET mht Mr pi tei s mmm CALIFORNIA CALIFORNIACALIFORNIA 8 5001 HARRY A. CANNON INC STRACITIANG STRACI STRACIT TIANGISTA RACN ITIG ANG NOTADIER NOTADIER TELEPHONE 115 201710 201710 there Was some problem in sanitation ~~ the individuals were not careful about washing their hands before eating smoking and what not and we tried to see that their clothing was kept clean so that they didn't carry lead around with them - Q. And do I understand that as a result of these one or two cases there was an annual program for testing lead content in people in the paint 10 11 12 13 14 department A. Yes there was Q. What year did that start do you remember A. I can't remember if Dr. Wahle had initiated it or if I had but as far as I can remember we always did this But I can't 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 recollect -- Q. Did the lead testing program in the paint department start so far as you know as soon as Pabco knew it had one or two cases of lead poisoning A. That's correct Q. And how long did that testing program continue A. It continued all the time Every year Q. All the time you were there 24 25 l Q. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET All right Now did I understand you to HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE say Doctor that you left Pabco in 19507 A. Yes . Q. What happened to cause that A. . resumed my my training I had resumed training training training in in medicine which started with my following my mentor's advice to go into general practice and become a doctor and then go into a specialty 10 11 Q. Who was your mentor A. Well it so happened that the one who mentioned this was Loyal Davis the President's father and I was one of his clinical clerks 12 13 14 15 16 and he had suggested that it would be a good idea for young doctors to go into general practice an, this advice was echoed by some of the others Q. Where did you come in contact with Dr. Davis 17 A. Dr. Davis was head of the Department of 18 Surgery at Northwestern University 19 Q. At Medical School 20 21 22 23 24 A. Right Q. All right And he said to you it's a good idea to become a doctor by being a general practitioner and then specializing A. Yes 25 Q. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET And you decided to specialize HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE ya A. Yes 10 11 Q. And what did you decide to specialize in A. In general surgery Q. How did you about that * . A. When I was overseas I had been with a - Wayne University Unit and while I was on detached service I spent time with them on the wards and I thought they were a very good unit andI decided I was going back there But meanwhile -- Q. Where is back there Doctor A. Back in Detroit 2 Q. Back in Detroit Michigan 13 ~ A. Yes Wayne State Medical School was in 14 Detroit and the principal university hospital was 15 Detroit Receiving 16 Q. I'm just trying to find out Doctor 17 wholly apart from Michigan whether you went back 18 there 19 A. Yes I did 20 Q. And when did you do that 21 A. Well I did it by increments I started 22 out in the area of where I was practicing doing 23 general practice and I started working in pathology 24 with Dr. Fishback at Herrick Hospital and all my 25 spare time I spent doing autopsies and I then took 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC re TELEPHONE em ama residency in -- let's see -- I then took a residency at French Camp at San Joaquin Valley in orthopedics and when Q. I returned I returned inside Just a minute Doctor let's of a year -not have you return yet You went in increments to Michigan to take a residency A. Yes But I was ahead of that I said that I was -- to go back Receiving Detroit to Receiving I did ~ that in increments I was still practicing my 10 general practice and doing my orthopedic -- my 11 surgery residency at San Joaquin where I could come 12 in over weekends and carry on some general practice 13 Q All right Now at what point in this 14 further medical training did you stop being a 15 time doctor at Pabco Can you give me a year 16 A. It was probably '51 or '50 151 17 Q. '50 '51 18 A. huh 19 Q. And you left your duties at Pabco to take 20 a residency and specialize is that right 21 A. Yes and I went to these various places 22 Q. And what specialty did you train yourself 23 in 24 25 A. Q. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET General surgery Did you become a general surgeon HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE Yes I did - 2 0 Did you become board certified as a 3 general surgeon did \ 4 A. Yes I om a ; ,,, Q. All right When you left Pabco did any - 6 || doctor replace you there 7 A. Yes . 8 Q. Who was that 9 A. Dr. Christopher Adamson 10 Q. All right Now following your 11 certification as a general surgeon did you return 12 to the San Francisco Bay Area 13 A. Yes I did 14 Q. As a surg^' 15 A. Yes 16 Q. Did you open an office 17 A. Yes 18 Q. Where was that 19 A. InitiallyI worked in my old office with 20 Chris until I located an office on Telegraph Avenue 21 in the Medical Building there 22 Q. In Berkeley or Oakland 23 A. In Berkeley 24 25 Q. All right After your return to the Bay Area did you have any professional connection with 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SANFRANCISCO SANFRANCISCO ONFORNIA ONFORNIA DA494.5001 DA494.5001 HARRY A. CANNON INC SERAGITIANS SERAGITIANS SERAGITIANS NAYABICO NAYABICO TELEPHONE sak 8 884 2104 1 Pabco workers as a surgeon ~ 2 A. Yes - | 3 Q. What was that connection one 4 A. I was listed of the surgical one . 5 consultants - 6 Q. Did you have Pabco workers who needed 7 surgery referred to you 8 A. Dr. Adamson or Dr. Blaisdell would send me 9 industrial injuries that required a general surgeon 10 Q. the injuries 11 A. On the job There weren't many of these 12 Q. All right Not many the injuries 13 that required surgery 14 A. No. 15 Q. Now did you receive off surgical 16 cases as for example someone who needed his 17 appendix out 18 A. Yes 19 Q. And some of those were Pabco workers 20 A. Yes 21 22 Q. And how long did this referral of Pabco workers to you go on after you came back to the Bay 23 24 Area A. Well it went on in an increasing amount 25 as time went on INCOLNCISCO 201 CALIFORNIA STREET INCOLNCISCO INCOLNCISCO CALIFORNIA CALIFORNIA 01111.5001 01111.5001 HARRY A. CANNON INC BEROSITIONS BEROSITIONS NOTANOTARR IS NI OTS ARIS SS TELEPHONE 115 . 201.7121 201.7121 Q. How long - Until what year A. Well until the medical department in Emeryville was discontinued Q. And when that A. I don't remember the exact time It was sometime in the early seventies I think or late sixties Q. The medical deparment was discontinued A. Yes 10 11 Q. Did you learn why or in what circumstances it was discontinued 12 A. Well they were doing less work I think 13 the total number of employees had diminished enough 14 so that they didn't feel -- the people in management 15 didn't feel it warranted having a regular staff in 16 the medical department and they had contracted with 17 some group in the vicinity I don't know which 18 19 group or where they were located Oo. You think that Pabco contracted with a 20 21 22 medical group A. industrial group yes Q. All right Now can you tell me again 23 what year it was that you came back to the San 24 Francisco Bay Area a a general surgeon 25 A. Around 1955 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE Q. When you came back in 1955 did you go down to the medical department at Pabco in the mornings and see patients anymore A. No I did notesnotes . Q. You confined yourself to practicing 2 surgery 10 A. Correct . Q. After 1955 how long did you remain in the 7 San Francisco Bay Area A. I remained there until 1971 I think it 11 was 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q. What did you do then -A I went back To Wayne State Medical School Detroit Receiving and finished up my residency there Stayed there around four years I had approximately - Q. No. I'm afraid that my question wasn't understood by you Doctor My question was After you finished your residency and returned in about 1955 to the San Francisco Bay Area how long did you stay in the San Francisco Bay Area A Until 1971 23 24 Q. And did you then take some further training 25 A. Yes 201 CALIFORNIA STREET en am ete om Pte Cm had Pear HARRY A. CANNON INC ee ee ee me anaae|h lk AEE TELEPHONE pa MAG 97aa Q. Back at Wayne State A. Pardon me I sort of mangled the answers as to when I startemdy residency and I was trying started and | to show where I had in increments | keeping up some practice - Q. All right Why don't you treat those mangled answers as a.doctor now and see if you can make them well I am going to ask you this When did you leave Pabco what year to start your 10 further training leading to certification in surgery 11 A. That was in 1946 12 13 Q. -A 1946 you left Pabco Let me see now 14 15 0 I think you testified before it was 1950 16 A. Yeah but I left for my residency in '46 17 Q. You did 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A. Yeah Q. And how long did the residency take A. Roughly four years plus the time I had spent at French Camp and at Highland Q. Can you remember what year it was you didn't work mornings at the Pabco plant anymore A When I returned in 1950 25 Q. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET When you returned in 1950 HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE Vibe wee RRR F A. I didn't -- no longer worked a regular hour shift Q. Between 1946 and 1950 did you work regular hour A. morning shifts mat the Pabco plant No. 1946 to 1950 I was out of the area Q. All right So you stopped working at Pabco in 1946 as now you recall 10 11 12 13 Q. How old are you now Doctor A. Seventy Q. How are you feeling A. Just like a seventy person should feel 14 15 Q. in You're in great shape for the shape you're 16 17 18 19 A. That's right Q. All right We are about to have the need to change tape Let's take a five or ten minute recess 20 Short recess taken 21 22 23 24 MR DAGGETT Q. Now that we have had a little recess Doctor I want to ask you the questions agaitno which you gave the answers you referred to a few minutes ago as mangled 25 Now first of all when did you start working 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE ee ee as a time doctor for Pabco A. 1938 Q. War II A. When did you leave ~ for the army for : \ World 1942 - 0 When did you get back from the army A. 1946 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 your Q. And doctor's when you got back duties at Pabco did you return to A. Yes Q. And how long did you continue A. From 1946 to 1950 Q. And in 1950 what did you do A. Then I left Pabco and went back to Detroit at Wayne State Medical School Detroit Receiving Hospital Q. So you were with Pabco as a part doctor from 1938 to 1950 except for four years in the army A. Yes 21 Q. Now during the period 1946 to 1950 after 22 you got back from the army did you do some 23 part medical work which counted for your 24 residency later 25 A. Yes 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A CANNON INC TELBUQUE TELBUQUE TELBUQUE Q. Does that have anything to do with your telling me you got all mixed up about those year periods which after all are only thirty or eek \ aa forty years ago mo A. Yes : Q. Did that have something to do with that A. Yes it did Q. In 1950 you went off to Michigan for your residency to learn to be a surgeon did you 10 A. Yes 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q. When did you finish that and get certified as a surgeon A. I finished the training in '55 and I got certified shortly thereafter There are two parts to the examination and I think it took a year a year and a half 17 Q. When you finished the training in 1955 in 18 Michigan where did you go 19 20 I returned to the Bay Area And you were a surgeon 21 Yes 22 23 24 And did you get some cases from the Pabco workers as you have said before A. Yes 25 Q. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET And how long did you practice as a surgeon HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 1 taking referrals of Pabco workers from time to time patients 2 with your other : 3 A. Until 171 just intermittantly occasional 4 cases that Chris Adamson would have - \ 5 Q. All right Now did you go someplace else 6 in '71 f 7 A. Yes 8 Q. Where did you go ~ | 9 A. Went to Tucson Arizona 10 Q. And how long did you stay there 11 A. I'm still there 12 Q. You have been there ever since 13 .A Yes 14 15 Q. And did you practice for a time in Tucson A. Yes 16 = | 17 18 19 Q. And then did you retire A. Retired within the last year Q. Retired within the last year A. huh 20 21 22 23 24 Q. And is it fair to say that from 1950 -- I'm -- sorry from 1971 - now I'm doing it - from 1971 until the present time you haven't ever practiced in the Northern California area A. No. 25 Q. Just came here to visit 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 111.5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC NERASITIONS ATARICO ATARICO TELEPHONE ee, wea 1 A. Yes - ; 2 Q. Like today . 3 A. Yes 4 Q. All right When you were in medical becoming 5 school at Northwestern do you recall - 6 familiar with a condition called asbestosis 7 A. Yes i 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q. In medical school prior to 1938 remember what you learned about that can you 7 A. In our course in pathology we had occasion to use Boyd's PATHOLOGY AN INTRODUCTION TO MEDICINE and there was a short reference regarding THE PNEUMOCONIOSES and listed among the pneumoconioses was asbestos and resultant asbestosis Q. Did you learn in medical school at Northwestern what pneumoconiosis was A. Yes 18 Q. Tell us what you learned 19 A. We learned that this was a disease of the 20 lungs primarily that was caused by dust containing 21 irritants containing silica anthracite material 22 and also asbestos 23 24 Q. All right Did you learn in medical school before 1938 that asbestosis was a kind of 25 pneumoconiosis 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA CALIFORNIA 04141.6001 04141.6001 HARRY A. CANNON INC DESASTIANO DESASTIANO himwanmEa TELEPHONE BS A. Yes ~ ; Q. Will you tell us what you learned in medical school if you have anything to add to what you said A. about asbestosis ` Common to most of the pneumoconioses the particles that caused the pneumoconiosis would cause irritation inflammation and subsequent fibrosis in the healing process and it would contract the lung Q. You learned about that in medical school 10 from your book and in class lectures 11 12 A. Well the amount of discussion was very minimal It - 13 14 Q. A. Please don't -- Yes 15 16 Q Please don't tell me that yet because I am coming to that 17 A. Okay 18 Q. Now what you learned about asbestosis in 19 medical school you learned from a book and from 20 class lectures 21 A. Correct 22 23 Q. In medical school did you ever Bee a case of asbestosis 24 A. No. 25 Q. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET Can you give us any idea from your memory HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE Dr. Perlmutter forty or more years ago how much medical 2 time was spent in your school class on 3 asbestosis 4 A. Virtually none ; ; \ 5 Q. Now after you got out of medical school 6 in your internship did you ever see a case of 7 asbestosis 00 A. Never -- 9 Q. During the first period at Pabco from~ 10 1938 until about 1942 did you ever see a case of 11 asbestosis " 12 13 A. Q. No. After you got back from the army from 14 1946 to 1950 did you ever see a case of asbestosis 15 A. No. 16 Q. During the period of your surgical 17 residency training between 1950 and 1955 did you 18 ever see a case of asbestosis 19 20 21 22 A. No. Q. As a practicing general surgeon from 1955 onward did you ever see a case of asbestosis A. No. _ 23 Q. Now my questions which follow relate 24 solely to the period you were at Pabco 1938-1942 25 1946 to 1950. I do not want you to answer it with 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415 - 391-7421 respect to what you may know as a physician and surgeon now and I will not permit interrogation of you by other counsel of what the present state of t your medical knowle madygbee Confining yourself . ~ to the time you were at Pabco were you aware at any time during those periods that Pabco workers were handling asbestos - A. Yes 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. In what plant or departments were they if you remember A. In the Plant Rubber and Asbestos that had moved up to Emeryville and started building a new plant the plant was in operation either at the end of '41 the early part of '42 Q. What kind of a plant was it A. It was a plant that produced asbestos products to safeguard equipment that had high temperatures 0. Did Pabco also have a plant at some time at Redwood City California 21 A. Yes 22 Q. Did you have anything to do with that 23 A. None none whatsoever 24 Q. None whatsoever All right Now during 25 your time at Pabco and until you left in 1950 did mann 201 CALIFORNIA STREET wren nsmerere Mekk PARALLA CM ta BPA HARRY A. CANNON INC . ee TELEPHONE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 you believe that Pabco workers handling asbestos every day were exposed to any risk of cancer from asbestos A. I did not know this \ that Q. Did you believe Pabco workers 2 handling asbestos every day were exposed to any risk of any other threatening or disabling disease from asbestos . A. No. Q. Did you believe as a doctor at Pabco during the time you were there that any of the workers handling asbestos were exposed to a risk of asbestosis or any other severe restrictive lung disease A. No I did not know that Q. Did you know during your time at Pabco in general that there was any association between cancer and asbestos 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did you at some time read the works of Dr. 21 Irving Selikoff of New York on asbestos and health 22 A. During what time 23 Q. At any time 24 A. Why I have read it recently 25 Q. How recently 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 111.5001 111.5001 HARRY A. CANNON INC SERAFITIANA asmwamiEn TELEPHONE ee A. Well within the last two years Q. Were you aware of Dr. Selikoff's work on asbestos and health at any time that you were working at Pabco mS, A. No. - Q. Or at any time that you were in the Bay Area taking surgical from Pabco A. No. 10 11 12 13 Q. Did you nonetheless believe Doctor while you were at Pabco that it was necessary to control or suppress general manufacturing dust for the health of the workers A. Yes 14 15 Q. there Was that done at Pabco while you were 16 A. Yes 17 Q. What was done 18 19 20 21 A. The removal of dust some of which contained asbestos particles was removed by a very adequate exhaust fan and by a vacuum type removal because of the difference in pressure in the room 22 23 Q. How effective did you believe that system or systems was or were while you were at Pabco 24 A. It was very effective 25 Q. Why do you think so 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 A. Because the area when I went to look at it at different times was remarkably free of dust Also the fact that other people heard of the dust removal system at Pabco three manufacturers in England licensees the States and one in became of - the technique employed at Paraffine Q. And you knew that A. Yes I knew that at the time - Q. Was there use by employees at the Emeryville plant of something called a respirator A. Yes A 12 13 Q. used What was the kind of respirator that was 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A. Well there were several different types The throw mask type the filter mask Principally these two types Q. Was there any requirement for use of respirators while you were at the Pabco plant at any places in the manufacturing operations that you can recall A. Yes 22 Q. What were they 5 5 23 24 A. They were very strict about having the workers in the area where the asbestos fiber was put 25 into this hopper and mixed into a slurry and in the 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 15 - 391.7423 1 bag room where the dust was brought out 2 Q. Do you know whether or not the rules for 3 respirator use were followed while you were at Pabco 4 A. I asked people who were workinign the how this 5 area and were in charge effective was were 6 they able to keep the workers in masks and they 7 said it was a very difficult thing and they had to 8 be after them continuously ~ 9 Q. Did they say why 10 A. They said because it was uncomfortable 11 Q. As a doctor at Pabco during the time you 12 were there were you responsible for plant safety 13 A. No. 14 Q. Were you responsible for preventing injury 15 accidents 16 A. No. 17 Q. Were you responsible for preventing 18 occupational disease such as lead poisoning 19 A. When we became aware of it we gave advice 20 as to what had to be done to prevent it 21 8 Who if anyone had plant safety 22 responsibility at Pabco 23 A. Safety engineer 24 25 Q. A. Who was that or what people were they Well I remember some of them Not all of 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 115 - 391.7421 ay @ Pye ter t ri 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Give Us the names you can remember A. Oliver Hitchcock Homer Lambie I can't remember the other names Q. All right Are you aware of any visits to the Pabco plant while you were there of State of California safety inspectors aware A. I was of it after the fact Q. But not at the time A. No. Q. Were you aware at the time while you were at Pabco of any studies or sampling of dust A. No I did not know MR DAGGETT All right I think now we will take our day recess because of the hour and let's see if we can be back at about one o'clock Luncheon recess taken at 11:45 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS NOTARIES TELEPHONE oe nm TELEPHONE 1 AFTERNOON SESSION MONDAY 2 OCTOBER 29 1984 1:18 P.M. : - 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 DAGGETT EXAMINATION BY MR Resumed AN . Sy - MR DAGGETT Q. Dr. Perlmutter the questions I put to you earlier in your deposition testimony related almost entirely to the period 1938-1950 or 80. Can you memory for details during tell us whether your the period twenty thirty thirty or more years ago is good or in what condition do you regard your memory to be A. It depends Sometimes it's very good for some of these questions and sometimes it's not SO good 16 Q. Do you remember meeting before the 17 gentleman who sits to your left down the table two 18 persons 19 A. Yes 20 Q. What is his name 21 A. Mr. Steven Kazan 22 23 | Q. He represents the plaintiffs here Do you recall having your deposition taken once before on 24 video tape 25 A. Yes 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111.5001 HARRY A. CANNON INC REBAREBC ACITIANI A RT EBI ACA ITN IAA NA NOTARICA TELEPHONE ae Q. Was it taken by Mr. Kazan - 10 11 12 13 A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes : Wa it about two years ago Yes oy ee 7 \ . Do you remember the month and year - I don't remember the exact month It was two years ago . Q. Was it the only other deposition taken from you on video tape A. That's correct Q. And was there a written reporter's transcript of that | deposition as well A. Yes 14 15 Q. At that time were you represented by other counsel 16 A. Yes 17 18 19 Q. At that time was Fibreboard represented by other lawyers A. Correct 20 Q. Do you have any recollection of when if 21 at all you saw the written transcript of that 22 earlier deposition 23 A. Yes It was many months afterwards I 24 25 had asked the counsel who was representing Fibreboard why I didn't have it so I could correct SAN 201 CALIFORNIA STREET FRANCISCO FRANCIS FRAC NCO ISCO PM PATA tk OM de Pe HARRY A. CANNON INC ne TELEPHONE ee ee: it It was my understanding that I was to get it right after : Q. Did you want to make some corrections in that transcript mn A. Yes - Q. Did you do so A. Well the copy I ultimately got was many months old i Q. Did you complain about that 10 A. I told my attorney that 11 Q. Did you feel that you were not able to y: 12 make corrections in that transcript that you may 13 have wanted to 14 15 16 17 18 A. Yes I couldn't remember detail real sharp detail on what happened Q. Do you think your memory for details some time ago is about as good today as it was two years ago 19 A. About the same 20 21 22 23 Q. About the same Now Dr. Perlmutter as you were leaving this room for lunch today did you find yourself walking near Mr. Kazan A. Yes 24 25 Q. A. Did he make a remark to you Well he asked me how I felt and I said SAN 201 CALIFORNIA STREET FRANCISCA FRANCISCA FRANCISCA FRANCISCA Prae iMmPareaita mda ohms HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE + . mir Q. Did he say anything else A. Yes He said Well I'll -- if that's SQ he says mentally I torture you physically but : . - MR DAGGETT I have no further questions of Dr. Perlmutter at this time Other counsel are free to examine I am told that Mr. Kazan has some scheduling time problems and 10 would like to examine now If there is no objection 11 why doesn't he = 12 13 EXAMINATION BY MR KAZAN 14 15 16 17 MR KAZAN Q. You've reviewed your transcript of your 1982 deposition recently haven't you Doctor 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. Not for some time Many months Q. You didn't review that in preparing for your deposition here today A. Q. I went through it and some months ago Did you ever see the video tape of that deposition 24 A. Yes I saw the video tape 25 Q. When did you see that sir 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN ERANCISCO CALIFORNIA 044148001 044148001 HARRY A. CANNON INC me en oe eo TELEPHONE i 10 11 12 13 14 15 A. That's some time ago Q. Have you reviewed any other video tapes in preparing for your deposition here 1 A. Some Yes = 5 a Q. And which ones have you reviewed - A. The video tape given by Mr. Oliver Hitchcock and the video tape of a - let's see -- of Mr. Brady -- I think his name wa -- I can't remember for certain And also Dr. Adamson Q. And did you also view -- MR DAGGETT Excus me Mr. Kazan I know the fact if you want assistance with it The second deposition was not one of anyone named Brady It wa a deposition of David West taken in this room A. David West 16 17 18 19 20 21 MR KAZAN Q. And did you also review the deposition on video tape of Miss Hanson A. No never Baw it Q. The video tapes that you did review however were done at the suggestion of Mr. Daggett isn't that true 22 A. Yes y 23 24 Q. Tucson Did he send those to you at your home in 25 MR DAGGETT Mr Kazan let me be of CALL 201 CALIFORNIA STREET FRANCISCO FRANCISCO FRANCISCO CALCODNIA CALCODNIA Fsieoaan PRS HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE assistance I didn't send them to him I took them to him and not prior to this deposition here today but prior to another deposition taken in Tucson in you counsel other litigation in which you are not counsel MR KAZAN Q. Doctor Mr. Daggett is - talking about your deposition in the insurance coverage litigation Do you remember that deposition sir A. Yes 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. When did you give that deposition A. Well it's several weeks ago Q. And in preparing for that deposition you viewed the video tapes of the depositions you just mentioned that have been taken here at KQED A. That's correct 16 Q. Did you just watch the tapes or did you 17 read the transcript 18 A. I just watched the tape I didn't see the 19 transcripts 20 21 Q. In connection with preparing for that deposition in Tucson did you also view the video 22 tape of your deposition 23 A. Yes It was difficult because of the 24 errors in the -- typographical errors and other 25 things 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q. My question Doctor was whether you --+ 7 A. Yes I did : Q. - viewed the video tape A. Yes I viewed it . n . video Q. And was that tape an accurate - recording of the questions that were asked of you and your answers that you gave when the deposition was taken ~ S 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 A. Yes Q. A. Q. A. So the video tape itself was accurate Nods head Is that correct That's correct Q. At some other time you also read the written transcript A. Correct 17 Q. And you had some problem with the accuracy 18 of the transcript 19 A. Yes 20 MR DAGGETT He hasn't said Mr. Kazan that 21 it was just with accuracy of transcription He has 22 testified with respect to his right to correct the 23 transcript and we all know there is no way to 24 expand upon a video tape But he said he wanted to 25 do it with respect to the written transcript which 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 04111.5001 04111.5001 HARRY A. CANNON INC AIDARITIANA NAZIDICA TELEPHONE aow lt lw is the only thing he can do it with MR KAZAN Q. Did you in fact make some notes or propose corrections to your video tape or written transcript of November '82 in recent weeks when you reviewed those materials in connection with this other deposition A. Didn't take any notes no Q. Did you make any record of any kind of the corrections you now would like to make in that 10 transcript 11 A. Of the transcripts of '82 12 Q. Yes 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. I would like to see an accurate transcription Q. So that just to make sure we are clear after Mr. Daggett's comments you feel that there were some errors in the transcription but not in the video tape itself A. That's right Q. All right And you mentioned that at the time of that deposition you were represented by other counsel A. Yes 24 25 2 A. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET Who wa that other counsel sir Mr. Hothem and his group HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 You were represented by Mr. Hothem at that time Doctor . the A. By Mr. Rappeport and counsel for Fibreboard - ~ Q. All right Hothem was \ actually - | MR DAGGETT Mr. Kazan I want to point out that the witness hada right under the law to correct more than transcription errors his former deposition He had a right to expand or qualify his answers and his testimony in answer to my questions was consistent with the desire to exercise that 12 right That lest you think that the only thing open 13 to was to correct transcription errors 14 obviously a video tape does not have any 15 transcription errors and his rights were not so 16 17 limited i MR KAZAN 0 Doctor are you still with 18 me 19 A. Yes 20 Q. All right Now in 1982 it's correct 21 isn't it that you were not represented in any way 22 by Mr. Hothem 23 A. That's correct 24 Q. The only attorney representing you at that 25 time was Mr. Rappeport an attorney in Tucson 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISC FRANCO ISCO CALIFORNIA 81111 8001 HARRY A. CANNON INC as cS TELEPHONE A. Correct -- 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 Q. And did you ever get a copy of your transcript from Mr. Rappeport at that time A. I did not \ ae . Q. Did you ever get a copy of the transcript from him any time in the months following A. No. . Q. Did you ever discuss with him where that transcript was A. I asked him and it is my understanding that he called Mr. Hothem and had him -- had someone in his office get a copy of it for me .Q Isn't it true Doctor that Mr. Rappeport refused to let you sign that transcript until he was paid money A. Not that I know of 17 18 Q. A. He never told you that he was holding Never told me <-- 19 Q. ~~ the transcript of your deposition 20 hostage for money payments from plaintiffs counsel 21 A. No. 22 MR DAGGETT Objected to as argumentative 23 A. No. 24 MR KAZAN Q. Now is Mr. Daggett 25 representing you today 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111.5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE AR mma tha Q. When did you hire him MR DAGGETT You don't have to be concerned with when you you ask me to hired meThe meThe question ar be your lawyer is when did - A. Before the last deposition I had insurance people . MR KAZAN Q. And do you recall approximately when that deposition took place 10 A. A couple of months ago Well it's not 11 that long It was within a month roughly ro 12 Q. And how long before that deposition did 13 you ask Mr. Daggett to represent you 14 A. It might have been a week ten days 15 something like that 16 Q. Okay And that would bring us back to a 17 time maybe a couple of months ago at the most 18 A. Roughly 19 Q. Is that correct 20 A. Roughly 21 0. Before you asked Mr. Daggett to represent 22 you was anyone else representing you in connection 23 with asbestos litigation in any of its forms other 24 than Mr. Rappeport 25 A. No. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET CALL FRAN FRANCISC CO FRI ANCS ISC CO O OURADNIA OURADNIAOURADNIA 144 2004 HARRY A. CANNON INC eee, es oe re TELEPHONE Q. and 1 Let me go back ask you some things 2 about what you discussed this morning During the 3 time you were practicing at the Pabco plant -- at convenience can it 4 Fibreboard if we call that for : ~ existence 5 sake -- were you acquainted with the of . 6 any other factories or industrial facilities 7 manufacturing asbestos containing products in the 8 Bay Area 9 MR DAGGETT Is this during Pabco or before 10 Pabco I'm sorry 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 MR KAZAN No. During that time period MR DAGGETT During Pabco .A When I was working there MR KAZAN Q. From 1938 to 1950 were you aware of the existence of any other asbestos manufacturing facilities in the Bay Area A. I knew there was a factory in Redwood City and I didn't know any other factories that were 19 Q. When you say a factory in Redwood City 20 are you referring to Fibreboard's factory or the 21 Manville factory 22 A. No. Fibreboard And I'm sorry I did 23 know that there was a Manville Manville 24 25 factory in the Bay Area somewhere Q. Did you know of the existence of their SAN 201 CALIFORNIA STREET FRANCISCO FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA CALIFORNIACALIFORNIA 04444 6001 HARRY A. CANNON INC meee wee) ht maa ee TELEPHONE ee plant in Pittsburg California what 2 A. I think that's it was I'm not . 3 certain 4 Q. Did you know whether that plant had a 5 time medical deparment or had a withdraw : 6 that Did you know whether that plant had a 7 physician under contract in much the same manner 8 that you were working at Fibreboard ~. 9 A. I know there was a doctor there I don't 10 know what arrangements there was ran 11 12 13 14 Q. Do you know whether there was an ray machine at that plant A. Q. No I don't Do you know whether there was any kind of 15 medical examination program at that plant for 16 workers 17 A. I didn't know anything about the details 18 of the program 19 20 21 Q. You knew though that Johns Manville had a factory and had a doctor connected with that factory in some capacity or other 22 A. I knew there was a factory and I knew ~fl 23 24 vaguely there was a doctor I wasn't sure what hours he worked whether it was full time or what 25 the arrangement was 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 15.301.7421 15.301.7421 15.301.7421 Q. Did you ever have occasion to meet a Dr. David Wise A. David Wise Q. Yes ms . A. No. - Q. You mentioned to us earlier that Dr. Wahle was the medical director at Fibreboard when you ~ started in 1938 10 11 12 A. Correct Q. Do you know how long he had served in that capacity A. Before I came 13 14 15 -Q Yes Or do you know when he started A. Oh it was some years before I don't know the exact time He had been there for some 16 years 17 Q. As I recall you and Dr. Wahle spent a 18 fair amount of time talking about subjects of 19 interest to Dr. Wahle 20 A. Correct 21 Q. He liked to tell stores about his growing 22 23 up on the prairies of Wisconsin or some place A. Yes Wisconsin 24 Q. Wisconsin And I remember stories about 25 the Army of Virginia Is that correct 201 CALIFORNIA STREET eg es me el mae tmreaniin mda PRR HARRY A. CANNON INC oe ee me anat naa de 8 sh anaen moe TELEPHONE ee A. That's correct Q. And did he tell you about his own professional experience in years before he came to Fibreboard hee an % A. Correct - 0. You mentioned this morning that Dr. Wahle had worked as a doctor at the shipyards in - California 10 11 A. Yes Q. And that would have been during World War I 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A. As I remember he was at Moore Dry Dock It was during the war so it must have been the preceding war Q. Okay Do you remember how long he worked at Moore Dry Dock A. I don't know Q. Do you know whether he worked for the Moore Brothers or that company A. I think it was Moore Dry Dock I'm not certain 22 23 24 25 Q. It was your understanding that he was employed by the shipyard itself A. Yes -- I didn't know any details We never discussed it 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE la reesteeer pega ee TUE cnet Wet a. ee Q. Do you know how long he worked in the shipyard 5 A. I have no idea No accurate idea as I MR DAGGETT calculate it Mr. Kazan we are now on events of sixty years ago - MR KAZAN That's very interesting Does that comment have some relevance to these proceedings MR DAGGETT 10 mind Go ahead Relevance is what was in my 11 12 MR KAZAN Q. Doctor do you know when Columbus discovered America 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 MR DAGGETT Doctor were you there A. I came a little later MR KAZAN Q. The point is Doctor I am not asking you what you remember about events during World War I. We're talking about what Dr. Wahle told you during the years of your association with him 20 21 22 A. Okay MR DAGGETT Since I'm paying for this can I tell why Columbus was a Democrat He didn't know 23 where he was going he didn't know where he was when 24 he got there and he did it all on government money 25 MR KAZAN Would you now like to make a 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 86 86 RE speech about the nuclear freeze debate MR DAGGETT Yes but I won't ; MR KAZAN Q Did Dr. Wahle tell you what . his duties were at the shipyard shipyard A. He handled trauma as it came in He saw- patients for various things Just as I did at the Pabco medical center 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q. And you understood from Dr. Wahle that during the course of the shipyard work he had occasion to see men at work not just in a dispensary is that correct A. I don't know what his -- what he did other than work as a doctor at the Moore Dry Dock Q. You understood from Dr. Wahle that at least he was familiar in general with how shipyards worked 17 A. I guess 18 Q. You mentioned this morning Doctor that 19 you used various facilities to get rays taken of 20 workers at the Fibreboard plant 21 A. That's correct 22 Q. And you mentioned I think that Dr. Fong 23 did very fine quality work 24 A. Nods head Yes 25 Q. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET Were you concerned that when rays were HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE SL balen Re ordered that they be done with the highest possible level of professional skill : . A. Correct Q. And that they be interpreted similarly with care and skill - 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 A. That's correct Q. And you told us also that there were occasions when hospitals would call and tell you that they were about to be destroying some old rays and that you would ask that those rays instead of being destroyed be sent out to the plant A. That's right Q. And that was because you wanted to keep as a part of the permanent records of workers at your plant their old rays A. Correct 17 Q. These obviously would be rays that would 18 be what five ten fifteen years old 19 A. We never threw any away 20 Q. And before - 21 MR DAGGETT Excuse me Mr. Kazan I don't 22 understand about how old they would be If he knew 23 of rays kept at the latest in 1950 they would be 24 thirty years old today wouldn't they 25 MR KAZAN That's not what we're talking 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE MR DAGGETT Well I'll try to keep up MR KAZAN Okay If you need some help Mr. Majeski probably understantd hiss and he can explain . \ it to you - MR DAGGETT Oh I know he does but I'm 10 11 _ 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 proud . MR KAZAN Q. Doctor at the time you would get these rays delivered they would be at least five or ten or fifteen years old A. It Was rare indeed that we had any rays at the hospitals but there was an occasional ray that would slip through and stay there and they as a matter of courtesy because we were good customers of theirs they would call us did we want it and we said yes indeed we wanted it Q. Do I understand you correctly then that the general practice was that when you would send someone to the hospital for rays after the films were interpreted the films would be sent to you at 21 22 23 the plant A. Yes that's correct Q. And was some proportion or percentage of 24 25 these films chest rays A. Yes And one of the reasons for it being 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE taken most of the time in the Oakland area because if it was a chest film it would be read by Dr. Trimble's group and it would be readily available Q. Can you give a ballpark estimate of the . percentage of rays ordered by your medical - department that were chest rays MR DAGGETT Over his entire time at Pabco MR KAZAN Yes If you can give a 10 11 12 13 ballpark figure A. Oh I would say there were hundreds of chest rays I have no idea how many we ordered It would be just conjecture I have no idea Q Okay Well the question wasn't the number 14 15 of films that you ordered but the percentage of the time that when you ordered rays they were chest 16 rays as opposed to arms or legs or - 17 A. Oh I would say twenty percent 18 roughly 19 Q. Were chest films 20 A. Yes 21 22 Q. And it was your policy to keep those films as a permanent part of the workers records 23 A. We kept all rays including extremity 24 rays and that 25 Q. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET Did you have occasion to order contrast HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 1 studies 2 A. What do you mean barium enemas enemas 3 Q. Barium enemas upper G.I. series 4 A. Yes we would occasionally do that 5 Q. And similarly you would keep those as 6 permanent record 7 A. Yes 00 Q. And you mentioned I think either today or 9 Hh the last time we met two large ray file cabinets 10 A. Correct 11 12 13 Q. And these contained rays dating back let's say as of the time you left in 1950 dating back far 14 15 16 A. I don't remember if we got the second large ray file in before or after I left I can't remember which one and what time 17 Q. There were times after you left though 18 that you'd have occasion to go back and visit at the 19 |} plant 20 A. Not very often 21 Q. But were there times when you would go see 22 Dr. Adamson or Dr. Blaisdell 23 A. I don't remember visiting either of them 24 except socially at their homes or their office I 25 had nothing -- the only occasion I had was if they 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 04111.5001 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS NOTARIES TELEPHONE 115 , 301.7401 asked me to come and see a patient that happened to be in the medical area : Q. Were there occasions after 1950 where you would see patients in consultation at the medical deparment in Emeryville - A. I would say maybe once or twice I can't - I'm not even certain of that 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. A. So -> I would be called but I couldn't remember whether I +-- I saw the patients but they were in my office ordinarily Q. You do though remember that the rays that were being kept as permanent parts of the record were there in 1950 when you left your regular employment with Fibreboard 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A. Yes Q. And you don't ever remember a time when you would be at the plant after that where you did not see rays is that correct A. I did not examine rays or see them Q. No. No. That -- A. They're always -- Q. They're They're always there A. In the files 25 201 CALIFORNIA STREST HARDY 2 NNON INC TELEPHONE TELEPHONE ; A. : 2 Yes a v : t they were always there Never examined the interior afterwards Q. But the cabinets were there A. The cabinets were there Sy . Q. Were there stacks of rays piled on top of the cabinets also A. No. No. | 0 Everything was -- A. They were all placed in alphabetical order 10 Q. Okay Do you know where those rays are 11 today Doctor 12 A- No. 13 14 15 -Q Has anybody connected with Fibreboard told you about the destruction of those rays A. No. 16 17 MR DAGGETT occurred Objected to as assuming this 18 19 20 MR KAZAN Q. Has anybody at Fibreboard ever told you that the rays were destroyed A. No one Wait a minute I talked to 21 someone - I said -- as to whether -- where were the 22 rays -- because when I first heard there was some 23 pending litigation I said I would like to see the 24 rays and the charts And they said it was not 25 available And I asked where they were And they 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 2 mcagenata e -bilnet : said they didn't know They thought the rays were destroyed at the time they demolished the medical offices Q. Is that Mr. Beck that you were talking to A. No. Well I talked to Mr. Beck but I = didn't discuss this 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. About the rays A. He didn't know about the rays Q. Do you remember who you talked to about the rays A. I really can't remember It was a nurse or whether it was Chris Adamson I can't remember which it was It wasn't anything of tremendous consequence because the rays obviously weren't available 16 17 18 19 Q. And you mentioned that at the time you heard something about what this litigation was when you asked about the films A Yes when I -- 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And approximately when was that Doctor A. Well that was approximately when -- let's see - about -- it was over two years ago Q. All right Was this sometime -- let's go back Your deposition that I took in Tucson was in November of 1982. Was it sometime in the summer of wean 201 CALIFORNIA STREET Fee htm) Pehl taia COMA Pre HARRY A. CANNON INC me ee oe etiam Ch mwa me TELEPHONE po Pea Veh 1982 that you first became aware that there was some litigation A. Yes Q. And was that the time when you made some attempts -- : A. Yes Q. around -- to see.if there were rays still - A. Yes 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q. You mentioned that there was no medical library or medical books at the medical department of Fibreboard is that right A. That's correct Q. They never subscribed for you to any journals in occupational medicine or industrial medicine medicine 17 18 19 20 A. No. Q. At the time you said that you had your own medical library of some kind A. Yes I still do 21 Q. Have you preserved the library that you 22 23 had all along A. I got rid of books that were twenty and 24 thirty years old They're all pretty current now 25 Q. When did you get rid of the older books 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE A. When I moved down to Tucson Q. What did you do with the old books Did you just throw them out or did you give them -- A. Just threw them out I tried to`g give them away no one wanted old medical books - Q. But as I recall you still do have your old medical school pathology text A. Yes Well it's the oldest d it's an 10 11 12 13 antique I'm going to keep Q. And you are referring there to Boyd's text on pathology that we discussed at your first . deposition A. AN INTRODUCTION TO MEDICINE 14 15 16 17 Q. All right You did keep that book and the one that you have at the present time is in fact the actual physical textbook that you used in medical school 18 A. Yes 19 20 21 22 MR DAGGETT I've still got Mechem on Agency and DeFuniak on Equity and I'll bet you do too MR KAZAN Q. Now have you kept any other books let's say that predate 19657 23 A. Yes I was very fond of my professor of 24 anatomy Dr. Arey and I kept his book on embryology 25 Q. Anything else 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE A. Yes I have some other old ones Let's see Some old surgeries - I can't remember which ones Q. said A. You viewed Dr. Adamson's video tape you Yes \ om x . aoe \ - Q. And do you recall seeing in that that Dr. Adamson and I discussed some ten or fifteen books from his library m A. Yes 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q. Did you own any of those books A. Books that he discussed no The books I have noW are almost exclusively anatomy surgery orthopedics pathology and I have a few books medical books Q. But in terms of the books that you had but threw out when you moved to Arizona were any of those among the texts -~- A. No. Q. -- that Dr. Adamson talked about in his 20 21 deposition A. I can't remember If you could -- 22 MR DAGGETT If you recall Doctor 23 MR KAZAN Q. If you recall 24 A. No I don't recall any of them They were 25 primarily medical texts as I remember 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE Q. Have you ever gone to the trouble of indexing or cataloging your medical library Doctor A. No I haven't Q. All right you give me an estimate of ~ . how many texts you still own that were published .- before 1965 A. Before 1965 Q. MR Or 1970 DAGGETT if that's an easier dividing line 7 Mr. Kazan let me ask I 10 11 12 13 14 15 believe this is pure discovery looking to the possibility of a demand on your part to inspect at a later date Dr. Perlmutter's medical library at home Would like to stop the video tape and just do this on the stenographic record MR KAZAN No. This is fine 16 MR DAGGETT All right That's said with an 17 awareness that my client is paying for it I'm 18 afraid 19 MR KAZAN That's what happens when you 20 21 22 notice the deposition Q. Go ahead Doctor question in mind Do you have the 23 A. Repeat it 24 MR KAZAN Mr. Reporter would you be good 25 enough to read it back for us 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A CANNON INC TELEPHONE TELEPHONE Pending question read - A. Fifteen to twenty s Q. Doctor providing us with MR DAGGETT would you have any objection to y a list those titles and authors a . I will respond to that if you will direct that to me As I have already told you on the telephone I will respond to that and will take that under advisement with every indication of - considering it favorably 10 MR KAZAN Is that a yes 11 MR DAGGETT That's an answer from his 12 lawyer You will get no answer from him 13 14 15 16 - MR KAZAN Do you instruct him not to answer my question MR DAGGETT Yes I represent him And you make arrangements with me and everything will work 17 MR KAZAN Q. Doctor would you have any 18 objection to making those fifteen to twenty 19 books available for our inspection 20 MR DAGGETT Instruct the witness not to 21 22 23 24 25 answer I'll take care of that Dr. Perlmutter MR WARTNICK Would you please certify those two questions THE REPORTER I do this ordinarily MR DAGGETT He certifies all of those 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE TELEPHONE - MR WARTNICK Thank you MR DAGGETT All I am asking is that counsel direct discovery requests looking to the future to as his counsel and they will receive speedy action Kazan I have already told Mr. we -- -- --no - reason why this can't occur MR KAZAN Q. You mentioned something this morning about the dust control at the Fibreboard plant and you referred to some licenses 10 A. Yes 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q. Would you run that by me again so I am sure I understand what you have to say A. I had talked to Harry Hoopes years ago when I was working at Paraffine and I asked him about their program for removal of dust and he was proud of this He had a great deal to do with the development of the dust removal program And I said -- I asked him if it is indeed true that I heard that some other people have been interested in 20 this and that some asbestos factories have been 21 licensed to get the technique that was set up at 22 Pabco And he said -- and in addition they had a 23 licensee in England I think it was in Darlington 24 England That's how I heard 25 Q. 201 CALIFORNIA CALIFORNICAALIFORNIA STREET And Mr. Hoopes told you that Fibreboard HARRY A CANNON INC TELEPHONE TELEPHONE made available to these companies the techniques and technology of manufacturing the insulation materials A. Well under some sort of license I didn't go into details BN &, \ Q. But he also told you that they made - available under license the techniques and technology that they used to control the dust is ; that true 10 11 12 A. Yes Q. And this was something that Mr. Hoopes told you at the time when you were still employed at Fibreboard 13 14 15 A Yes Right Q. And you knew at that time that he was working for Fibreboard also in some executive 16 capacity 17 A. Yes 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. You told us this morning that there was some program at the Fibreboard plant directed toward the prevention and surveillance with respect to lead exposure do you recall that testimony A. Yes Q. There was a program involving some form of testing of workers who had potential lead exposure 25 is that correct 301 CALIFORNIA CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A CANNON INC TEI CALONE 101 HAP A. Correct 7 0 And what were these blood tests of some kind A. Blood and urin~ - \ time Q. Do you know in when that testing - program began 10 11 A. I can't remember whether it was initiated by Dr. Wahle before I was there or afterwards but it had been there for years I can't remember I remember vaguely that the -- I better not - 12 13 14 15 MR DAGGETT Doctor try to confine yourself to answering the questions as they are put and leave out vague recollections in which you don't have confidence 16 17 18 A. Okay MR KAZAN Q. So this testing program was in place when you first came there 19 20 21 A. I said I can't remember exactly if it was before or just after I came there Q. At the time you first came there had 22 there already been cases of lead poisoning 23 A. I was told then I knew subsequently 24 that there was some lead poisoning and I can't 25 remember whether I was present when we discovered 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE this or not . 10 11 2 13 14 15 16 Q. Do you know whether the cases of lead poisoning were discovered before or after the testing A. program was They were begun a, . suspected before and they were tested and indeed they had high lead levels Q. So it's correct then that Fibreboard through its medical department initiated program of testing workers for signs of lead poisoning based on a suspicion that there might be a problem from lead exposure at the plant A. There was ---- -~- MR DAGGETT Objected to for lack of foundation There is no testimony here that the program was initiated by the medical department MR KAZAN Q. Doctor do you know who 17 initiated the testing program 18 A. The medical department 19 20 Q. Thank you MR DAGGETT Now there is 21 22 23 MR KAZAN Q. This program was initiated in response to a concern that there might be a problem of lead exposure causing disease among the 24 workers is that correct 25 A. Yes They realized this because they had 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE two - one or two patient~s- workers -- who had problems and -< Well go ahead. Q. Okay ne 7 x A. I'm just here to answer questions not to talk 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 MR DAGGETT That's right Doctor A. Right MR DAGGETT This is not a seminar You have come here as a witness to facts while you were at Pabco to answer questions A. Okay MR KAZAN Q. See it's different When I ask the questions you are supposed to be brief and not volunteer anything And when Mr. Daggett asks the questions it's different 17 18 19 20 21 22 A. No he didn't -- he makes me answer just the questions MR DAGGETT No Mr. Kazan can't remember even what happened this morning much less thirty years ago when he was barely here MR KAZAN Q. Now -- 23 24 MR DAGGETT Maybe he was barely here I don't know 25 MR KAZAN Q. Doctor were there cases of 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE TELEPHONE diagnosed lead poisoning at Fibreboard before the testing program was initiated A. When the testing program was initiated two cases -- one to two cases don't remember certainly which it was but enough to make US - concerned that we didn't want any exposure that wasn't monitored It was a known problem Q. And so once they knew that they had a case your medical deparment decided that they better do 10 something to examine workers on a regular basis 11 A. Yes 12 13 Short recess taken MR KAZAN 0 Doctor back at the time 14 15 when you and Mr. Hoopes talked about the licensing that we discussed a few moments ago did he ask you 16 about what you or the medical profession considered 17 to be safe levels of asbestos dust exposure 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did he ask you anything about what you 20 felt medically would be appropriate precautions to 21 22 protect workers A. No. He didn't ask me that 23 24 Q. Did anyone in the Fibreboard management come to you and ask you for advice or information 25 concerning what the medical profession thought to be 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE safe levels of dust exposure MR DAGGETT Objected to as assuming the medical profession thought anything about that at the time eee * BN Ot If you can answer go ahead - A. No one asked me about this MR KAZAN Q At the time you worked at Fibreboard were you familiar with an organization called the American Conference of Governmental 10 11 Industrial Hygienists A. I didn't know the name of this group I 12 13 knew there were hygienists in government Q. Did you know also that there was a group 14 of hygienists in government that set threshold 15 limit value levels for various airborne contaminants 16 MR DAGGETT The question is simply aid you 17 know that Doctor 18 A. No. 19 MR KAZAN Q. Did anyone at -- withdraw 20 21 that Did Mr. Hoopes come to you and ever show you dust studies or dust counts done at the Emeryville 22 23 plant A. No. 24 Q. Did anyone in management ever show you 25 such studies COCALFORNIA COCALFORNIA COCALFORNIA STREET HADDY A CANNON INC YCI CDuane mtn Q. Did anyone in management ever discuss with you whether such studies would be advisable A. No. ^'s * Q. During your discussion with Mr. Hoopes was there ever any mention of the California general industrial safety orders that applied to manufacturing workplaces 10 11 12 A. No. MR DAGGETT Objected to as vague What discussion please MR KAZAN Q. Doctor did you understand 13 14 15 16 that I was talking about the discussion you mentioned earlier with Mr. Hoopes concerning licensing A. Yes 17 Q. All right During that discussion did 18 you and he talk about the general industrial safety 19 orders promulgated in California 20 A. No. 21 8 Did you ever discuss those safety orders 22 with Mr. Hoopes 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you ever discuss those safety orders 25 with anyone in Fibreboard's management 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE A. No. 2 3 | 4 5 Q. Did you ever discuss the California regulations as they related to asbestos exposure with anyone in working at the Fibreboard management oN plant while you were 6 A. No. 7 00 . 9 | 10 Q. You mentioned that you understood that two masks were used in areas of the insulation factory A. Yes 11 12 Q. Do you know what kind of masks were used A. They had a filter mask and they had a 13 disposable mask similar to the surgical mask they 14 have now | 15 Q. And you understood that the disposable 16 type surgical mask was used in certain portions of 17 the insulation plant 18 A. I wasn't certain where they were used 19 The instructions were that in the area where they 20 dumped the asbestos into the hopper there and where 21 they -- where they were taking care of the bag in 22 the bag room they were supposed to use a filter 23 mask 24 MR DAGGETT Doctor excuse me the question 25 | is simply whether you knew where they were used 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415 - 391-7421 . - 108 . | 1 MR KAZAN Okay You have to answer audibly 2 80 that we have a transcription that is accurate as - 3 well as a video tape 4 A. Repeat the question so I that can -~- it You at 5 Q. Okay Let's go this way - 6 understood that the filter type mask was to be used 7 among other places in the room where the raw 8 asbestos was dumped into the mixing process 9 | A. It was my understanding yes 10 Q. All right You understood that that mixing A . 11 room or batch room as they called it was on the 12 third floor of the insulation factory 13 14 | A. Q. Yes And workers there were handling bags of 15 pure raw asbestos 16 A. I don't know how pure it was 17 Q. Well -- but they were handling asbestos -~ 18 A. Yes 19 Q. -- the material mixing it into the 20 slurry is that right 21 | | 22 A. Yes Q. And this filter mask that you are 23 describing this is a rubber face mask with a felt o 24 filter that snaps in and out 25 i A. I don't know the exact components present 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415-391-7421 415-391-7421 415-391-7421 in it in the mask Q. Did anyone in Fibreboard's management come to you and ask you whether that mask was adequate to protect those worker - sx A. Never - Q. Did you know whether those masks were adequate to protect workers from inhaling dangerous ~ levels of asbestos dust A. No. 10 11 12 13 MR DAGGETT Objected to as assuming there was any knowledge of dangerous levels at that time MR KAZAN Q. Do you have the question in mind Doctor 14 15 16 17 18 THE REPORTER He answered MR KAZAN And what was the answer THE REPORTER No. MR KAZAN Q. Did you know whether the filter mask was more the same or less effective at 19 protecting workers from inhaling dust than was the 20 21 22 surgical type mask | A. Not from personal observation Q. Well from any other way 23 24 A1 It was supposed to be more effective The problem was it was difficult to make people use it 25 It was uncomfortable and difficult to use 201 CALIFORNIA STREET mat memanimirmrrun Mid iePathaiin macau erm HARRY A. CANNON INC ue a ee TELEPHONE emt Q. And did you learn that from talking workers directly or just from management : MR DAGGETT Learn what with | That MR KAZAN the masks were uncomfortable . to use and difficult : A. From the workers Q. What was your understanding of the discomfort or the reasons that led people be unhappy about using them 10 A. They said it was difficult to get -TO- to 11 breathe well 12 13 14 Q. Doctor A. Have you ever worn such a mask yourself No. Never 15 16 17 8 You have worn a whole lot of surgical type sks in your life A. Yes 18 Q. Are those tolerable for breathing 19 A. They're They're difficult after awhile But 20 they're used to it -- you get used to it Used to 21 it 22 23 24 25 Q. Did anyone connected with the management come to you and ask for your assistance in helping to educate workers about the necessity of wearing masks 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415 - 391-7421 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did anyone in management ever come to you 3 and ask for your advice or counsel with respect to 4 whether the use of masks was the best way to protect ms ; | 5 workers Be 6 A. No. 7 Q. At the time you worked at Fibreboard did 8 you have an opinion as to whether the use masks | 9 was the best method to protect workers from inhaling | | 10 dust 11 A. I always felt that the best method of 12 protecting workers was prevention so that the 13 employees would not be breathing any of this dust 14 H and that the exhaust fan and the complete dust 15 prevention program was an excellent program at 16 | Fibreboard 17 Q. You understood that it was more desirable 18 to use engineering and exhaust to remove the dust 19 from the vicinity of the worker as a means of 20 protecting the worker 21 A. Should've been used in conjunction -- I 22 mean both things depending on the amount of dust 23 24 present Q. But that the ideal method was to control 25 the dust through engineering techniques so that 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415 - 391-7421 1 there would not be dust in the actual vicinity of . 2 the worker . 3 A. Correct 4 Q. Did you ever discuss that concept with the 5 safety directors or other management persons at 2 6 Fibreboard 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 A. No one came by to discusis t with me Q. Was it your understanding that they knew this as well you did MR DAGGETT Now don't answer that Doctor It calls for somebody else's state of mind MR KAZAN Q. Well I am asking about your statoef mind Doctor Was it your impression that other members of management knew this as well MR DAGGETT Instruct the witness not to answer on the same ground MR KAZAN Q. Doctor did you know whether other members of management knew that the best method of dust control was to use engineering and 20 21 not to rely on masks A. I didn't know that However they did use 22 a very good system of exhausting the dust particles 23 Q. You didn't know whether they knew it or 24 not is that true 25 A. I can't tell you what they thought They 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-509 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415 - 391-7421 1 recognized the single most important thing in the 2 prevention of exposure to dust particles and that 3 is exhausting and cleaning the air 4 5 | Q. MR How do you DAGGETT know that they I instruct the recognized it witness not to 6 answer I will permit no more testimony from him on 7 states of minds of other people whether he thinks 8 he knows or not that are more than twenty 9 years old as of today 10 MR KAZAN Q. Doctor are you anxious to 11 come back to San Francisco for another deposition 12 MR DAGGETT Don't answer that doctor 13 This isn't the first time this man has threatened 14 you It may not be the last But he is not going 15 to get away with it 16 MR KAZAN You should be ashamed Robert 17 18 19 20 21 Q. Now Doctor did anyone in the Fibreboard management ever ask you whether in your medical opinion the dust control system in the plant was adequate to protect workers from exposure to asbestos dust 22 A. No. 23 MR DAGGETT Asked and answered Mr. Kazan 24 Go ahead and answer it again Doctor 25 A. No. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415-391-7421 415-391-7421 415-391-7421 MR KAZAN Q. Did you view at any time one of your responsibilities to be the counseling of workers with respect to potential occupational disease hazards at the Fibreboard plant %, A. No. There was already a program - instituted by the safety officer Q. My question was whether you thought that Wa one of your responsibilities A. No. Because there was something already 10 in effect 11 12 13 Q. You understood then that someone else had that responsibility A. Correct 14 15 16 17 Q. And to your understanding who had that responsibility A. Mr. Lambie was recruited as a safety officer Prior to this he had been used as a 18 consultant when he was with one of the -- a 19 20 university or a state - MR DAGGETT Dr. Perlmutter the question 21 was simply who by name had that responsibility 22 A. Okay 23 MR DAGGETT I must suggest to you that when 24 you add these additional details you put examining 25 counsel under pressure to follow up with all the mann 201 CALIFORNIA STREET ee 2 harem. Ml Emi OM thts HARRY A. CANNON INC ae eee ee ee el i a TELEPHONE emma stuff you have added that wasn't called by the question . MR KAZAN Q. I think Doctor the question was who had the responsibility ~ A. The safety officer - Q. You mentioned a Mr. Lambie Was he the first safety officer to your knowledge that was employed by Fibreboard ~ A. No. yo 10 11 12 Q. Do you remember who was the safety officer in 1938 when you came in A. No. No. 13 14 Q. Do you know whether in fact they had one at that time 15 A. I don't remember 16 Q. Was it your understanding that when Mr. 17 Lambie came to work as an employee at Fibreboard 18 that he had responsibility for the counseling of 19 workers with respectto occupational disease hazards 20 A. Yes 21 8. Did you ever discuss occupational disease 22 hazards with Mr. Lambie while you worked at 23 Fibreboard 24 A. Not in any depth He just chatted with me 25 He never brought up a real problem and asked to go mani 201 CALIFORNIA STREET we nk ahh wa ae Mlk amen Mh ke eee HARRY A. CANNON INC ee a a ee a ee TELEPHONE par Rhee Baha con. wegee tn Poa over it with me Q. Lambie A. Q. Did you ever discuss asbestos with Mr. ; No. an % Did you ever discuss the question of lead poisoning with Mr. Lambie A. Yes 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Now you told us before that there were perhaps one or two cases that led to the institution of this testing program Are there various forms of lead poisoning Doctor MR DAGGETT Just a moment please I understand the sincerity with which that question is meant Mr. Kazan but I am going to instruct him not to answer any questions including that one calling for present medical expertise He is not a medical expert who has come here to express opinions about the present state of the art or his present knowledge He has come here to testify and he testified on direct examination to what he knew while he was at Pabco If you want to put the question about different kinds of lead poisoning in terms of what he remembers when he was at Pabco that will be fine 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE MR KAZAN Well without accepting your misstatement of the doctor's role let me , go on and say Q. At the time you worked at Fibreboard were you aware of different forms of lead poisoning - A. No. 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. What to your understanding at that time did lead poisoning mean A. Well I don't quite understand your previous question That's why I said no But 88 you're bringing this up do you mean severe cases mild cases or what Q Well okay Are there various degrees of lead poisoning MR DAGGETT I instruct the witness not to 16 answer The question relates to the present state 17 of his knowledge 18 Relate it to the time that he was at Pabco and 19 he will 20 21 MR KAZAN Q. Prior to 1950 did you know if there were various levels of severity of lead 22 poisoning 23 A. I just answered that there are severe 24 there are mild and there are the average type thing 25 Li} If that's what you want Prin 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE Q. Well prior to 1950 did you know whether there was a chronic form of lead poisoning A. Yes lead Q. Did you poisoning know if there was an acute form of - A. Yes 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. Was there a chronic form A. When we discovered the fact that the employees concerned had elevated lead levels we called in expert consultation and they handled the problem Q. My question Doctor is whether you knew by 1950 of the existence of a chronic form of lead poisoning A. Yes 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. And you also knew of the existence of an acute form of lead poisoning A. Yes Q. Did you know at that time of various forms in which lead poisoning could become symptomatic A. I never was an expert on lead poisoning The question you are asking is characteristic of all disease entities chronic severe cute and this is what I knew 25 MR DAGGETT Doctor it's not necessary for 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 10 11 12 13 14 you to explain or defend something that you are not an expert on Just answer the questions as they are put to you please A MR All right x... . a KAZAN Q. Did the two \ . cabes the one or two cases of -- let me withdraw that Is it correct that what prompted Fibreboard to call in consultants and institute a surveillance program for lead exposure was a finding of elevated lead levels in the blood or urine of one or two workers A. Yes and there were symptoms in at least one of them . Q. A. What symptoms were there I don't remember 15 16 17 Q. Did you know before 1950 what symptoms were connected with lead poisoning A. Yes 18 Q. Okay Do you now remember what you 19 remembered or knew in prior to 19507 20 21 22 23 24 A. Well there are changes in peripheral nerves and lead line that you have in rays Q. What significance if any did the fact that one of these men had symptoms of lead poisoning -- in your decision to call in consultants 25 i and institute a surveillance program 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE y ee MR DAGGETT It's a little bit vague you understand the question Do A. No I don't because I ~- MR DAGGETT him Then --- don't say 2 don't because Just ask him to repeat it I - Rephrase it It will make it quicker A. the -- Repeat it because I had made an answer to ~ 10 MR DAGGETT Not because ~~ why you don't understand the question is not something we want to 11 spend time with 12 A. Okay 13 MR DAGGETT It's his job to make it clear 14 A. Reword it please 15 MR KAZAN Mr. Reporter would you repeat the 16 question please and let's see how we're doing 17 Pending question read 18 A. We acknowledged the fact that we weren't 19 experts in this and we wanted it taken care of 20 promptly and expeditiously This is why -- the 21 reason why we called specialists in this area in 22 Q. Was the reason that you called in 23 specialists the fact that one worker developed 24 symptoms of lead poisoning 25 A. No. The fact is that we had a potential 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE problem there and we had someone with positive findings and we wanted to correct it . Q. elevated And lead positive findings Tone levels in the blood refers to the \ or urine - A. Yes Plus some -- - Well that's all Q. A. The answer is yes Yes Yes And -=- 10 11 12 13 Q. Okay Now did you know at that time whether elevated lead levels in and of themselves necessarily meant that someone would develop symptoms A. Yes 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q. Did it mean that they would have symptoms A. Not necessarily Q. Would it be fair to say Doctor that by 1950 during the period you worked at Fibreboard you understood that abnormal laboratory results of lead levels served at least as a marker that a 20 worker had potentially hazardous exposure to lead _ 21 MR DAGGETT Objected to as vague and 22 indefinite in form both scientifically and in plain 23 English 24 MR KAZAN Q. Go ahead You can answer 25 the question COLCAFANUA COLCAFANUA COLAFNU COLCAFANUA COLAFNUA COLCAFANUA COLCAFANUA STOCET STOCET STOCET STOCET STOCET STOCET HADDY & ANNON ING TEI FAUONEFAUONE MR DAGGETT If you can answer it go ahead A. With this chit chat would you repeat it please MR DAGGETT MR KAZAN wants , \ He wanttso know if --. No -- excuse me Counsel I will ~- ask my questions If he would like the question | repeated ask the court reporter MR DAGGETT It is objected to in form as grotesque Mr. Kazan but if you want to stick with 10 it go ahead 11 12 MR KAZAN question back Mr. Cannon would | you read the 13 Pending question read 14 A. That's correct 15 16 Q. And that was sufficient in your mind to justify steps to institute surveillance programs and 17 test workers and take precautions 18 MR DAGGETT Objected to as assuming that 19 Dr. Perlmutter took those steps He said he can't 20 remember whether they were taken after he came to 21 Pabco or before 22 MR KAZAN Q. Go ahead Doctor 23 A. That's true 24 Q. Thank you Now you were asked some 25 ul questions earlier about your duties during the two 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE TELEPHONE CeO ST Bm tee wpe UR a 9G Bo pins Byer Arne dfsng gm Be thent te S o ae Bee1237 1237 1237 periods you worked at Fibreboard and if I understand you correctly the first year period approximately you worked with medical care at the sme ... x Emeryville Dr. Wahle plant is providing \ that correct A. Yes Correct 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. At that time did you have any administrative responsibility for the workers compensation insured program A. The only administrative problem was filling out the report dictating it to the secretary or the nurse Q. At that time Dr. Wahle was the medical director of the entire corporation A. Correct 16 Q. And one of his duties had to do with the 17 administration or supervision of the insured 18 program 19 A. Correct 20 21 Q. And that covered all the Fibreboard plants A. Right 22 Q. Other than your involvement perhaps as a 23 treating doctor seeing an industrial injury you had 24 no administrative or supervisory responsibility for 25 the workers compensation insured program 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY 2 CANNON INC TEL FAUANP FAUANP 10 11 12 during the period 1938 to 1942 is that correct A. That's correct . Q. You came back after the war and resumed . right sometime in 1946 is that | A Yes . Q. Do you remember what month it was that you returned to Fibreboard A. I think it was November certain Q. Of 1946 or 1945 Doctor I'm not . A. In '46 I think I would have to change that I am not sure if it was the end of '45 or the 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 first part of '46 Q. Okay When you came back as I recall you told me last time Dr. Wahle greeted you put on his hat and left for retirement A. That's right MR DAGGETT Dr. Perlmutter don't answer with respect to what he says you told him last time Answer with respect to the fact as you now recall it 21 22 if you do A. Dr. Wahle said Hello to me and 23 24 Goodbye * MR KAZAN Q. And left you with the 25 Emeryville medical deparment 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE Perciegess Se EMS, ~_ 2 . ree POR ,,- 1 A. Right 2 Q. And from 1946 to 1950 did you have some 3 administrative responsibility for the insured \ workers compensation program A. At Emeryville only = = 60 Q. Was there ever another Dr. Perlmutter to 7 your knowledge who worked for Fibreboard 8 A. There couldn't have been 10 Q. The answer I take it is no you don't know of any 11 A. No. 12 Q. All right Now do you recall being given 13 the title of Medical Director of Fibreboard in 1946 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A. I was the medical director of Emeryville for whatever that means It was nothing -- I had no jurisdiction over anything except Emeryville Q. Do you recall a time when you were authorized to sign checks drawn on Fibreboard bank accounts or one bank account A. I might have I can't remember I was responsible for the Emeryville employees Q. And do you recall the board of directors conferring upon you the title of Medical Director A. No. No I don't remember that 25 Because -- 201 CALIFORNIA CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY 42 CANNON INC TELEPHONE TELEPHONE MR DAGGETT The question was do you remember that Doctor % 1, A. No I don't remember it MR KAZAN Q. Where did you maintain your office from 1946 to 1950 as it related to your = duties with Fibreboard A. Down in Emeryville and I would spend a few hours in San Francisco 10 11 12 13 14 Q. A. Where in San Francisco Doctor At -- I don't remember the address -- it was Bryant Street or -- where the offices were Q. Is that on Brannan Street Brannan or -- yes don't remember the address I suppose | that was I 15 Q. But at least it was at the offices of - 16 17 A. Q. Right -- Pabco 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Right Q. And did you work in a particular room or rooms at the corporate offices A. Well I was allotted some space there I didn't have a private room or anything Q. Did you have a desk A. No. I sat down wherever there was a place to write 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE Q. And was this in the office that ran the insured medical program A. I don't know what part of it was I just okayed the patients worked at Emeryville . Q. Was the office that you worked in when you went to the city the same office where Miss Hanson had her desk A. No I didn't know Miss Hanson I don't remember her 10 11 12 Q. Did you receive medical reports and mail at the San Francisco address A. I could have I don't know because I was 13 therea couple of times a week 14 Q. Did you go there on a regular schedule 15 Doctor 16 A. I don't remember I just had to show up a 17 couple of times a week 18 Q. And when you showed up it was to sign 19 papera 20 A. It was to review any medical problem that i 21 would have to be taken care of by the insurance 22 company -- our insured company 23 Q. By the insured 24 A. Yes 25 Q. And when you say any medical problem 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE Atos wor does that refer to workers at places other than Emeryville A. No. Absolutely not Q. So are you tellinmge then that you were _ never asked to review or comment or pass upon = workers compensation claims brought by workers from any other Fibreboard facility A. I don't remember ever having done that | other than Emeryville 10 MR DAGGETT Excuse me Mr. Kazan He said 11 that at San Francisco his duties included okaying 12 Emeryville employees You want to get what that 13 means or let that lay 14 MR KAZAN Sure 15 A Okay Okaying that they were eligible for 16 compensation or whatever because of their injury or 17 illness or whatever anything that had to do -- 18 that was compensable under the laws 19 Q. Going back to the time you started at 20 Fibreboard in 1938. Did you have occasion to 21 22 23 perform employment physicals on workers A. Yes Q. And of what did those examinations consist 24 Doctor 25 A. History and physical 201 CALIFORNIA STREET mm mm mt mm tk Bi HARRY A. CANNON INC ee TELEPHONE ee Q. In 1938 do you know whether Fibreboard had insulators working out of the Emeryville complex A. I didn't know about any at that time Q. Did you ever learn that Fibreboard had insulators working out of the Emeryville complex who applied Fibreboard insulation in shipyards or buildings or anywhere else one A. told I never me about discussed this with anyone the insulators I was under No the 10 11 impression that they were contract workers Q. What did you understand contract workers 12 to refer to 13 14 15 A. That they contracted from some _ with. some firm for application I did not know that they had any definite standing with Fibreboard 16 Q. You did on occasion do physical 17 examinations and provide treatment for these 18 insulators is that right 19 A. We provided treatment I don't remember 20 doing physicals on them I can't be sure this far 21 22 away Q. All right Do you know whether insulators 23 who worked at Emeryville went through the same 24 employment screening program that factory 25 workers went through 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE I can't remember if they did I was under 2 the impression that all the people I was examining : 3 were employees of Pabco 4 Q. And how many employees were there in 5 Emeryville in your first year period if you-you- 6 recall 7 A. I think that it was well over a thousand 00 I think it varied between a thousand five hundred 9 and over two thousand And I am not certain about 10 11 12 13 14 it Of course during the war years they had multiple shifts and everything Q. And after the war what was the size of the work force as best you can estimate it for me A. Around a thousand 15 16 17 18 0 Did the employment physical examination program at any time you worked at Fibreboard ever include chest rays A. Yes It was not a routine portion of the 19 examination 20 21 22 Q. What circumstances would lead to a chest } | ray being taken A. If someone gave a history of being a miner 23 a hard rock miner we would take rays or if he 24 had been exposed to severe upper respiratory 25 infections recurrent pneumonias or what not 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 941115001 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415 - 391-7421 1 Q. During your years at Fibreboard was there N ever a regular periodic physical examination program . 3 for hourly factory employees 4 |i 5 A. A regular om, . ~ Q. Yes \ . - 6 A. No. 7 where | Q. No program they would come in once a | 8 year or once every two years to be checked- over 9 A. No. They were entitled to come in and ask 10 | for a physical examination if they felt they should 11 have one I mean if they said they didn't feel 12 well and so we did a physical on them But this 13 was just a history and physical and if we found 14 anything they were immediately referred to their own 15 doctor That was a little touchy at that time 16 Industrial doctors were not to take care of private 17 | 18 doctors Q. patients Was there during your years at Fibreboard 19 | a program whereby management personnel were given 20 periodic physical examinations at company expense 21 A. Yes 22 Q. And did those examinations include chest 23 rays 24 A. At a certain time -- I can't remember the 25 Wl exact year -- it was popular to run physical 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 04 HARRY A. CANNON INC PREBACITLAMC . IOTARIte TELEPHONE Pe20171 20171 20171 Py examinations on key employees so that there would be available some back in the event of physical 7 disability or death Q. Maybe I follow but how does the periodic physical examination program of key : employees produce backup if there is a disability or death . A. Well at that time it was felt that yearly physical examinations would prevent serious illness 10 They could be picked up in the embryonic stage of an 11 illness and something could be done Since then the believe D 12 doctors do not that this merits all this 13 without any symtomatology at all 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q. Back at the time before 1950 did you accept what I think you have just said was the conventional wisdom of doing yearly physical examinations for preventative purposes A. Each executive type employee was offered this examination by the medical deparment Not 20 everyone took it Many of them elected to go to 21 their own doctor For example we wouldn't do 22 sigmoidoscopic examinations and that sort of thing 23 in the office because it would tie up a room too 24 long 25 Q. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET My question though Doctor was whether HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE at the time you believed that yearly examinations Was a useful tool to pick up illnesses early A. I wasn't convinced of this but it was a request of the medical department and I didn't feel strongly enough to deny that - Q. And this examination program that was offered to executives included rays didn't it chest rays A. And some of them refused rays and some 10 of them we would discuss whether they wanted rays 11 or not 12 8. Did any of the -- withdraw that 13 Approximately how many employees fell within the 14 classification of key executives or executives that 15 were offered this yearly examination program 16 A. There weren't very many of them I would 17 say roughly thirty maybe fifty at the most 18 Q. Were these all from the Emeryville plant 19 A. All from the Emeryville plant 20 Q. You told us some things this morning about 21 what you learned in medical school with respect to 22 the subject of asbestos and I would like to spend a 23 few moments talking about that if I may You 24 learned that asbestos could produce a form of 25 pneumoconiosis 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE Yes And that that form of the disease was asbestosis Yes mo. . . 1 Did you know in medical school when the - disease asbestosis was first described in the medical literature by that name A. Asbestosis 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q. Yes A. I don't remember the exact date Q. Did you learn approximately -- was it a disease that had been ~~ a term that had been used for hundreds of years fifty years ten years A. I just can't remember anything -- I mean it wasn't wasn't considered important enough to discuss in detail 17 Q. You learned though that asbestosis was 10 18 form of pneumoconiosis 19 A. Yes 20 Q. You learned that inhaling asbestos 21 particles or fibers could produce an irritation in 22 the lungs 23 A. Yes 24 25 Q. And that this irritation could go on to an inflammation 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415 - 391-7421 A. Yes - Q. And that that inflammation could resolve with the formation of scar tissue 10 A. Yes but -- . ~* x, . Well I'm just going to answer the question.-question.- Q. And you also learned that that scar tissue was called by physicians intersticial fibrosis A. Yes that's okay Q. You mentioned this morning that you learned that asbestosis could contract the lung I 11 think that was the term that you used 12 A. The fibrosis would cause some contraction 13 in varying amounts throughout the lung 14 15 16 Q. And what happens when there is contraction of the lungs MR DAGGETT I instruct the witness not to 17 answer the question framed as it does to get his 18 present medical understanding 19 MR KAZAN Well it wasn't framed that way 20 at all 21 22 MR DAGGETT Do you want it read back Do you want to hear the words what happens when 23 That was the question 24 MR KAZAN Q. Doctor we're talking what 25 you learned in medical school 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE MR DAGGETT Fine - A. this I did not learn anything specific about - MR KAZAN Q. Okay % You didn't learn in medical school that asbestosis could produce a - 6 restriction of the lungs 7 A. Asbestosis as per se was not discussed Q. Did you learn in medical school that pneumoconiosis could produce a constriction or 10 restriction of the lungs 11 A. Yes 12 Q. Did you learn in medical school that 13 pneumoconiosis could produce a narrowing in the air 14 spaces of the lungs 15 A. Yes 16 0. Did you learn in medical school that 17 pneumoconiosis could produce a reduction in 18 breathing capacity 19 A. Yes iva 20 Q. When you were in medical school was a 21 22 distinction drawn between obstructive lung disease and restrictive lung disease 23 A. I don't remember that far back 24 Q. You don't remember if that distinction was 25 i drawn 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE Q. When you were in medical school did you learn that pneumoconiosis could produce shortness of breath * A. Yes \ . Q. Did you learn that pneumoconiosis could produce dyspnea on exertion Q. And that refers to shortness of breath 10 with activity or exercise doesn't it 11 A. Yes 12 Q. Did you learn in medical school Doctor 13 that pneumoconiosis could produce cyanosis 14 A. Yes 15 16 17 18 Q. And Mr. Daggett asked you to explain that earlier The cyanosis referred to the development of a bluish tinge in the extremities or other portions 19 20 21 A. In many places Q. And that -- what did you learn was the cause of that bluish discoloration 22 MR DAGGETT Be told you this morning Tell 23 i him again Doctor 24 A. Restriction of the lung and inability to 25 | have the proper percentage of oxygen 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SALESBANCISCAO LLEBANCISSCALLOEBANCISCO SALEBANCISCO SALLEBANCISCO SALLEBANCISCO SALLEBANCISCO SALLEBANCISCO SALEBANCISCO OeCLLIFOBAICLLLAIFOBAILA CLLIFOBAILA CLLIFOBAILA81111811118001 8001 HARRY A. CANNON INC gain hake genim 2 4m 5 ee 4 n0 TELEPHONE 14530478nt30478nt 30478nt 30478nt 10 11 12 13 MR KAZAN Q. And did you learn in medical school Doctor that pneumoconiosis could produce clubbing of the extremities A. Q. Yes mh 3 mo And would you tell us . please what you - understood clubbing to refer to when you were in medical school ; A. Clubbing was a thickening and widening - of the extremities of the fingers Q. And did you learn in medical school that the pneumoconioses could produce changes on ray A. .Q Chest ray | you say Yes 14 A. Yes 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q. What did you understand to be the ray changes that could occur with pneumoconiosis A. Well there are various things and you would have to specify what form of pneumoconiosis silicosis anthracosis that sort of thing Q. What did you learn in medical school about the ray appearance of silicosis A. There could be foreign materials evident 23 in the lung 24 Q. Did you learn that silicosis could produce 25 particular types of ray pictures 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE Yes Q. Did you learn that that would include the appearance of generally round opacities in the lung fields Stee * \ . A. Foreign materials yes - Q. When you say foreign material are you referring to the formation of fibrosis or scar tissue as a result of exposure to these materials 10 11 12 13 A. Right Correct Q. Did you learn in medical school that there could be in some forms of pneumoconiosis the development of a haziness in the lung fields A. Yes 14 15 Q. Of opacification of the lung fields A. Yes 16 Q. Of some calcification around the lungs 17 A. Yes 18 Q. And did you learn in medical school that 19 there were any treatments for pneumoconiosis 20 A. The only adequate treatment was prevention 21 22 Q. That was something that was clear to you from your medical school training is that correct 23 Doctor 24 A. Yes 25 Q. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET And so you learned that there really was HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 no treatment per se for somebody once they developed a pneumoconiosis A. Correct the Q. All right That the goal was to prevent development of the disease preferably with engineering controls to keep the worker away from the pneumoconiosis producing dust A. That's right Q. And the term pneumoconiosis Doctor means dusty lungs doesn't it A. I think that is the definition Q. You learned in medical school that pneumoconiosis in its various forms was a group of illnesses that fell within the field of chest medicine A. Yes Q. And that you learned obviously that chest specialists could be expected to know a whole lot more about these diseases than general practitioners A. It was a specialty Most specialists know more about their specialty than general practitioners QO. At least one hopes that they do A. Yes Q. All right You learned in medical school 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE that respirators dust masks were not the best way to prevent pneumoconiosis MR DAGGETT that Doctor The question is ae did you learn A. No. MR KAZAN Q. Did you know during your medical school time that getting workers to wear respirators was a problem 10 A. No. Not -- ---- 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q. Doctor I believe from your curriculum vitae as I recall you were born in Canada A. Q. A. Yes At what age did you move from Canada Five I was five and a half years old MR DAGGETT You want to ask him what month 17 that was 18 19 A. Yes I'll tell a -- No I won't 20 MR KAZAN Q. You're not to tell me unless 21 Mr. Daggett says it's okay 22 Did you or your family have any involvement -- 23 24 let me withdraw that Were any members of your family involved in any of the mining industries in Hl 25 Canada FALLERANCISCO 201 CALIFORNIA STREET FALLERANCISCO FALERANCISCO FALLERANCISCO CAUSORNIA CAUSORNIA 64111 8001 HARRY A. CANNON INC BERARITONIO BERARITONIO BERARITONIO BERARITONIO BERARITONIO NAGA NAGA DIPO TELEPHONE par) 8 tee Baers A No. No. We knew there was lot of mining - Q. During your medical school training did you develop industry any familiarity with familiarity the Canadian mining A. Yes I knew that they had asbestos mining going on and I always felt that asbestosis was contracted in the mines because of the heavy 9 concentration of asbestos fibers and dust 10 Q. This was something you felt in medical 11 school 12 A. Yes 13 Q. All right And tell me if you will 14 Doctor what was your understanding at that time of 15 the concentration of asbestos dust in the asbestos 16 mines 17 A. I have no idea what it was 18 19 220 220 22 23 Q. Tell me what you understood in medical school to be the concentration of asbestos dust for example in asbestos textile mills A. It was very heavy MR DAGGETT If you had an understanding Doctor 24 A. What's that 25 MR DAGGETT If you had an understanding of mak wm 201 CALIFORNIA STREET hi mia) mm lk imamimeita Aw aA HARRY A. CANNON INC a TELEPHONE CS Se A. Yes I did It was very heavy MR KAZAN Q. Did you have an your training 4 understanding during medical school as % . | 5 to whether the levels of asbestos dust exposure were 6 greater in the textile mills than in the mines 7 A. All I can remember is they were both -- 8 they were both heavy exposures ae | Q. In your medical school education where did 10 you learn about the mining industry and the asbestos 11 textile industry 12 A. Heard it in lectures somewhere I can't 13 remember exactly Or the hour that it was given 14 Q. Do you remember reading any medical 15 literature that dealt with asbestos or asbestos 16 mines or textile mills 17 A. Not at that time that you have -- 18 What time do you have reference to 19 Q. While you were in medical school 20 A. No. 21 Q. Do you know -- withdraw that Did you 22 ever read an article in the medical literature that 23 || dealt with asbestos at any time up until you left 24 Fibreboard in 1950 25 | A. No. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 3 es ir ee cp ] Q. There is a specific report Doctor that I 2 |} would like to ask you about I refer to an article 3 entitled A HEALTH SURVEY OF PIPE COVERING 4 ; OPERATIONS IN CONSTRUCTING NAVAL VESSELS authored 5 by Fleischer Viles Gade and Drinker published in 6 the Journal of Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology in 7 | 1946 8 Did you prior to the time you left Fibreboard 9 ever read that article 10 A. Not at that time 11 12 Q. Do you know what article I am speaking of A. Yes 13 Q. Did anyone at Fibreboard ever discuss that 14 article with you prior to 1950 15 A. Never 16 8. Did anyone at Fibreboard discuss that 17 article with you at any time prior to your leaving 18 California 19 20 21 22 A. No. y Q. Did you yourself ever read that article | prior to leaving California in 1970 or '71 A. No. 23 a Q. From your own knowledge Doctor do you 24 know of anyone in Fibreboard management either 25 | medical or safety or corporate management who 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA CALIFORNIA 047444 82AH4 HARRY A. CANNON INC REAM Gratis ptseravTAsaRrre TELEPHONE 2422 301.7 91 actually read that article prior to the time you 2 left Fibreboard in 1950 3 A. I have no knowledge of that ~ 4 | 5 Discussion off record Q. You knew Doctor re tape time remaining from your medical school | 6 # training that asbestos dust was potentially 7 hazardous is that correct 8 9 10 11 MR DAGGETT The question is did you know that from your medical school training A. I knew that since asbestos was one of the pneumoconioses 12 Q. Okay And you knew that any dust which to 13 could produce a pneumoconiosis would have be 14 something that you would consider to be a 15 potentially toxic dust is that correct 16 | A. Yes 17 18 19 20 MR KAZAN This would be a convenient place to take our break while we change the tape MR DAGGETT Yes why don't we change the tape and leave five minutes on it and then start with a 21 fresh one 22 Short recess taken 23 24 25 i MR KAZAN Q. Doctor before the recess we were talking about the things that you learned in medical school and just so that we are clear did 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415 - 391.7421 you learn in medical school that pneumoconiosis could be a disabling disease @% : + A. Yes Q. And did you also learn that it could cause Pra death A. Yes I suppose it could Q. Did you also learn in medical school anything about whether pneumoconiosis was an acute or chronic disease 10 A. It was a chronic disease 11 Q. You learned that it was a disease that 12 would develop over time following exposure to the 13 pneumoconiosis producing dust 14 A. Yes 15 Q. And you learned at that time that there 16 was a concept of maturation or latency involved in 17 the development of pneumoconiosis didn't you 18 A. I'm not certain about all the 19 pneumoconioses if there is a latency period that is 20 significant 21 Q. Did you learn about a latency period in 22 any of the pneumoconioses 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you know from medical school that 25 i there was a latency period between exposure to 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE TELEPHONE 1 asbestos dust and the development of disease 2 3 | A. No. o Q. Did you know that during your years at | | 4 Fibreboard \ ~ . Sy 5 A. No. 6 | 0. Did you learn -- withdraw that 7 Fibreboard opened the Plant Rubber and Asbestos 8 Works insulation factory in late 1941 approximately | 9 Do you recall that 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 A. Yes Well I didn't know it was opened then They were working on it and it either opened at the end of '41 or the early part of '42 you you Q. Did understand at that time when returned to Fibreboard in 1946 that a worker exposed to asbestos dust would ordinarily not become sick for a period of years if at all A. No we did not know about it 0 In 1942 is it correct that you would not have expected to see any disease related to asbestos exposure from exposure that took place in 1941 MR DAGGETT that Oh my Could you rephrase 23 24 MR KAZAN. Q. Doctor you would not have expected in 1942 to see any disease related to 25 jf asbestos exposure from 1941 would you 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 04111.8001 04111.8001 HARRY A. CANNON INC me eo mn a TELEPHONE A. We did not appreciate the latency period at that time : Q. If somebody's exposure began in 1941 expect show Doctor you would not them to | asbestos disease by 1942 MR DAGGETT I instruct the witness not to answer the question which in form calls for a ~ present medical opinion MR KAZAN Q. My question was with respect 10 to what you knew in 1942 11 A. I did not know about the latency period in 12 1942 13 14 15 16 Q You didn't know that it took some time from the period of first exposure for asbestosis to develop in 1942 A. No. 17 Q. Did you learn in medical school that there 18 was a relationship between the extent of exposure to 19 pneumoconiosis producing dust and the development of 20 disease 21 A. Repeat it again please 22 Q. Yes When you were in medical school did 23 you understand the concept of a dose response 24 relationship 25 A. am hae mm 201 CALIFORNIA STREET me eam nn tm kl I appreciated the fact that any exposure HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 149 149 2. : < ra 1 to dust would depend on the total exposure I mean 2 if it was a massive exposure in mines yes 3 | Q. You knew that the risk of development of exposure 4 disease was related the extent of the . | 5 A. Yes 6 7 8 9 10 Q. And that someone with a relatively small | | exposure all other things being equal would be less likely to develop disease than someone with a greater exposure A. Yes 11 0. And that's something you knew from medical 12 school 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 But .A they I don't remember where I knew never specifically spoke about this from any of these things am trying to get across the fact that the pneumoconioses were discussed very briefly | Q. Were you aware Doctor of any general public concern about silicosis during the nineteen thirties when you were in medical school | A. Yes 21 22 23 24 Q. And did you know Doctor in your years at | Fibreboard whether silica was used as a raw material ; | in any of the Fibreboard processes A. Not at that time 25 Q. Okay You did not know while you were at 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA CALIFORNIA 4774 001 HARRY A. CANNON INC me ie ne m n me TELEPHONE Fibreboard whether they used silica A. No. . Q. || A. That's That's correct you correct . correct didn't know it \ ~ Q. Did you know Doctor whether Fibreboard at that time used any diatomaceous earth A. I did not know that 10 11 12 13 Q. disease Did you know at that time that there was a | called diatomaceous earth pneumoconiosis A. I knew that diatomaceous earth was a hazard I did not know it at that time Q. You never knew while you worked for Fibreboard -- 14 A. I 15 Q. 16 disease No. ~~ that diatomaceous earth could produce 17 A. I did not know that they had diatomaceous 18 earth in their product 19 | Q. My question though was whether you knew 20 that diatomaceous earth was a potential producer of 21 pneumoconiosis \ 22 A. At that time no 23 | Q. Now in July of 1982 the summer before I 24 took your deposition you were visited by 25 | representatives of Fibreboard weren't you 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A ANNON INC TELDUANE TELDUANE A. In Tucson Q. In Tucson A. The attorneys from an insurance company Q. No. In July of 1982 weren't you visited -. sit ing . by Mr. Beck who is sitting off on the side of the room <- A. Yes 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Q. ~- and a Miss Nanette Hudson counsel with Mr. Hothem's office A. Yes Yes she was representing an insurance company Q. Did she tell you she was representing an insurance company or Fibreboard A. Well she was representing Fibreboard | through an insurance company Q. And she came to see you to talk about what you knew and remembered from your years at Fibreboard is that true 19 A. Yes 20 21 22 Q. And at that time she attempted to retain you as a consultant to Fibreboard didn't she A. Not as a consultant I don't think As a 23 witnes or whatever -- I don't -- she Wanted me to F 24 discuss some of the matters 25 Q. Didn't she ask you if you would -- if she 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA CALIFORNIA maaeda emma HARRY A. CANNON INC oe TELEPHONE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 could retain you and have you come to San Francisco and talk to them and serve as a consultant to | 7 Fibreboard in this litigation said know A. I don't the exact I was to be a consultant or terminology she ; whatever M because | I was never an expert on this sort of thing Q. And she discussed with you when she was there the question of whether you had coverage under | your Fibreboard's insurance policies with respect to own acts as a doctor during the years you worked for Fibreboard 12 A. I don't remember her saying anything about 13 that 14 Q. You don't recall her telling you that 15 || there was a question as to whether you were a 16 potential defendant in malpractice cases arising out 17 of the Fibreboard factory 18 A. I don't remember her discussing that facet 19 of the problem 20 Q. And you don't remember her telling you 21 that there was a question as to whether if you were 22 sued you would be covered by Fibreboard's policy 23 A. I can't remember that 24 Q. Miss Hudson discussed with you what you 25 knew from medical school and what you knew about 201 CALIFORNIA STREET CAN FRANCISC FRANCO ISCO CUIFORNIA meade Orra HARRY A. CANNON INC ae TELEPHONE ye asbestos while you worked at Fibreboard didn't she A. Yes . Q. asbestos And when you told te. oy her you learned \ to some degree from your pathology about textbook she told you that you must be mistaken didn't she A. Well she asked me specifically if I could mention anything any text or any reference to what it was 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Q. And that led you to on the way home from dinner to stop by your office and get the Boyd's textbook and show it to her A. 0 Yes And -- A. That -- Well never mind Q. Well if your answer to my last question was incorrect or something -- A. No -- 19 Q. = you are certainly free to change it 20 A. It isn't incorrect I am trying to curb 21 my garrulousness 22 Q. Following your meetings with Miss Hudson 23 you then made some inquiries on your own into the 24 medical literature didn't you 25 A. Yes 31 CALIFORNIA CALIFORNIA STREET --- & ---- anime y Q. And how did you go about doing that Doctor 6 MR answer DAGGETT I We are taking instruct the the position witness not x a here and we to are taking it quite clearly that such inquiries into the medical literature as Dr. Perlmutter made with reference to prior depositions and with respect to may this litigation and such opinions as he hold as a doctor today are not germane to the subject of the 10 action or likely to lead to discovery of admissible 11 evidence and there will be an instruction on this 12 stuff I think you are very close to work product 13 with these questions but I haven't said anything 14 until now 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 MR KAZAN I am not close to work product Until two months ago he wasn't working for Fibreboard And I am entitled to explore what this witness knows when he learned it and whether that refreshed his recollection of things he knew before You are not entitled to limit the scope of this deposition I would request that you permit him to answer questions on this line or we will ask the court to have him come back and we will do it some other time 25 MR DAGGETT Mr. Kazan I have to tell you 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE TELEPHONE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 in very plain English that the questions you put to Dr. Perlmutter on November 13 1982 in the Crittenden and related consolidated cases was a hopeless jumbled up when he was at Pabco mixed salad of what he or Fibreboard and what knew he knew as he sat there at his deposition and that hopeless mixed up salad was not the result of ineptness on your part but a high degree of which nonetheless related in a professional skill record which so far as the issues in this case to which his knowledge relates is grotesque and incomprensible Now I will instruct him with respect to present knowledge how he got it what his opinions are and he will be instructed not to testify with respect to matters after he left Pabco unless and until after notice and hearing there is a final court order that says otherwise MR KAZAN And I take it that is a blanket instruction and we therefore have a blanket stipulation 21 MR DAGGETT No sir you don't have a 22 23 24 25 blanket instruction and you don't have any kind of blanket issue or certification We'll have to get at this as we go along because there may be areas in which a contrast between what he knows subsequent to 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE the time he left Fibreboard will be helpful in flushing out what he knew while he was at Fibreboard or Pabco But those will be very small or infrequent instances ... ... x + And I am determined that no lawyer * for the plaintiffs here will succeed again in confusing obfuscating and mixing up the difference between that mind which today may and be in Henry Perlmutter's professional that which was in his mind before he 10 left Pabco for the purpose of arguing to a jury 11 later that his present knowledge and opinions were Yo 12 knowledge and opinions he held when he was working 13 for Pabco We just aren't going to do that again 14 I think that any court having an opportunity to 15 consider the question carefully and deliberately 16 will see that the distinction is an eminently 17 reasonable one 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 The problem in these cases essentially is mind trying out states of that in some cases are forty forty thirty thirty years ago There are severe evidentary problems and mixing things up even though done with a high degree of professional skill results in obfuscation and not the truth 25 MR KAZAN Chat 201 CALIFORNIA STREET PA warren lel lw]. That's a very pretty speech It HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE is irrelevant It is incorrect The doctor's prior 2 deposition is clear on its face . 3 MR DAGGETT The doctor's prior deposition 4 has questions -- \ are , | 5 6 MR KAZAN MR DAGGETT Counsel I didn't interrupt you I'm sorry Go ahead 7 MR KAZAN The deposition is clear on its | 8 face His testimony is clear And the appropriate want 9 trier of fact can make whatever decision they | that 10 My question today is -- you have now indicated 11 you will instruct him -- since you have now 12 apparently been engaged as his counsel -- not to } 13 answer questions concerning anything he has done 14 since he left Fibreboard Given that I am not 15 going to sit here and ask two hundred questions so 16 that you have a script in advance to prepare him for 17 when the judge tells you that you're wrong I was 18 | right and he has to come back to do this over 19 | MR DAGGETT I wish you wouldn't threaten 20 this seventy year man with having to come 21 back 22 23 24 25 MR KAZAN I'm sure not going to Tucson again I did that because of once If he the attitude has to you're come back taking in it's this deposition 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 04 .5704 HARRY A. CANNON INC an ote... TELEPHONE qy MR DAGGETT All right You're not going to see his medical books at home unless want to go . to Tucson Now when you're you're through you tell me and I want to add something in response to what you just said MR KAZAN Well I think we'll defer your speech till four o'clock when the doctor and I are going to leave because I don't want to waste my time MR DAGGETT I'm sorry but you make your 10 record here and I make mine and I'm going to tell 11 you this Number one the questions put to him by 12 you on November 13 1982 many of them perorations 13 which run sixteen eighteen lines in length are bad 14 in form and if put again they will be objected to on 15 that ground and number two I don't hesitate to 16 have you test this position in court if you wish to 17 do 80. And I urge you to do so I am making no 18 blanket instruction What I am doing here is trying 19 to state for the edification of all on the record 20 what I believe to be a consistent position and a 21 position which should and might have been taken on 22 November 13 1982 and was not 23 MR KAZAN' Q. Doctor - 24 MR WARTNICK Mr. Reporter would you please 25 certify that question in my shipyard cases Thank 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 159 MR DAGGETT Dr. Perlmutter there is ee nothing to this baloney about certifying questions | automatically It's done and this record is going to be in shape for presentation of the question to the oad i court if anybody wants to do it MR KAZAN Q. Doctor -- 10 11 12 13 14 15 MR DAGGETT I don't believe that you have a - right to conscript this man as a present expert medical consultant and I don't hesitate to say as I have said before that you would not engage Henry Perlmutter as an independent medical expert if you jj} had the opportunity and you don't MR KAZAN Are you finished with your speech MR DAGGETT I am finished with the remarks 16 17 18 19 20 21 I consider necessary to making my own record now | yes MR KAZAN Very well | Q. Doctor after your meeting with Miss Hudson you indeed went and reviewed medical literature from the thirties and forties and fifties 22 23 24 and sixties didn't you | A. Yes MR DAGGETT I instruct the witness not to 25 answer I think he just said yes but I am going 201 CALIFORNIA STREET em mantam madd eh HARRY A. CANNON INC om oe meen ftw mee TELEPHONE 48 201.7401 201.7401 1 to instruct on this line Dr. Perlmutter I think 2 MR KAZAN Q. Now you met with me in 3 November of 1982 do you recall that 4 A. Yes a ; 5 Q. We spent several hours with your attorney 6 discussing your experience at Pabco and what you 7 knew about asbestos and disease do you recall that 8 | A. Not the intimate details but I recall 9 discussing this with you | 10 Q. And do you recall Doctor at that time 11 you expressed an interest in seeing more of the old Vw, 12 | literature about asbestos 13 .A I don't remember specifically but -- | | 14 Q. Do you remember Doctor at that time I 15 gave you a set of abstracts of medical literature 16 from the period between the thirties and the 17 seventies 18 A. Yes 19 Q. And you reviewed those did you not 20 21 22 A. Yes Q. And do you recall that I came back - that was on a Monday and I came back and met with you 23 again on Friday evening in anticipation of your 24 Saturday morning deposition do you recall that 25 A. There were a lot of meetings then I can't 201 CALIFORNIA STREET eg HARRY A. CANNON INC RMPRASEMEIC NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415 - 391-7421 remember in detail about this 2 Q. And you recall Doctor I take it that 3 when we met on that Friday I gave you copies of some 4 medical articles that you had expressed an interest 5 in seeing do you remember that 6 A. I don't remember it specifically I 7 remember discussing something about it B Q. Do you remember my giving you copies of 9 some articles 10 A. Yes 11 Q. Now sometime after that conference the 12 day before your deposition you in fact reviewed 13 those articles didn't you 14 A. Sometime 15 | 16 Q. Do you still have those materials A. I think so I have to look for them 17 | 18 Q. And you still have the abstracts A. Somewhere 19 Q. Now Doctor I am going to show you a copy 20 that is unfortunately somewhat marked up of an 21 editorial from the Journal of the American Medical 22 Association sometime around July or August of 1949 23 And if you want to mark this Mr. Reporter You can 24 25 make a copy of it and return that to me It's a three document that bears some of my writing on 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415-391-7421 415-391-7421 415-391-7421 Three document The Journal of American Medical Association Volume the 140 comprising marked for cover pages 1219 . iden Exhibit 1 and 1220 MR KAZAN Q. take a look at this Doctor I would like you to A. Examining | MR DAGGETT There is no question Dr. Perlmutter 10 The question may in my mind be 11 appropriate or inappropriate Wait for the question 12 please Don't say anything about that until you 13 have one from Mr. Kazan 14 A. Examining 15 16 | MR DAGGETT Before we | proceed would you pass it down and let me glance at it 17 Examining All right | 18 MR KAZAN Q. You told us this morning 19 Doctor that you received and regularly read the | 20 Journal of the American Medical Association 21 | 22 A. Yes MR DAGGETT It isn't quite what he said 23 24 | But I think he has it in mind MR KAZAN Q. You've just had an 25 opportunity to glance over this editorial 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSMONS _ HOTARIES 7 TELEPHONE 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes Q. Would you read for the record the title of that editorial LUNG AND A. ASBESTOSIS CANCER OF THE CANCER . Q. Doctor was this afternoon the first time in your life you've read that editorial MR DAGGETT I instruct the witness not to answer I will give you the ground whichI assume you want You have now muddied the waters Mr. Kazan by testifying with his approbation that you handed him a whole bunch of old stuff when you saw him in Tucson I am not going to permit him to testify about stuff you gave him and that he read within the last couple of years If you want to ask him whether he read that at or about the time of its publication or before he left Pabco he will answer but we are not going to have another mixed salad here of whether he read some old stuff because he read it when he was at Pabco or whether he read it because you handed it to him in Tucson a couple of years ago MR KAZAN Q. Did you read this Doctor when you received the Journal in 19497 A. No. I explained that I did not read it the Journal of the AMA cover to cover I read 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE ban "tier selected articles And I don't remember reading this Q. you A. Q. . You read articles that were of interest to . , ne - Yes And you would look at the table of contents or the index -- A. Yes | Q. -- and pick out articles that had some 10 bearing on the things that you found pertinent to 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 your practice A. Q. Yes And I missed this Doctor in 1949 was it your practice to read articles in the Journal of the American Medical Association that dealt with asbestos A. Q. Yes if I -- and I missed this Okay How do you know that you missed it A. I would have remembered it Q. If you had read this this would have stuck in your mind A. Yes 22 23 A. Because it related to the asbestos that we 24 had in our plant 25 Q. In 1949 had anyone at Fibreboard 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE management told you that they had some concerns 2 about whether asbestos was a potential carcinogen 3 4 5 6 7 8 | 9 10 11 12 13 A. No. . you Q. Do you remember a patient that treated in your private practice in the mid to late nineteen sixties by the name of Dean Walker A. I don't remember Dean Walker Q. If it would help your recollection he was saw in surgical consultation for Dr. a patient you Adamson on several occasions for a question of an ulcer or other G.I. disease who in 1969 when you had hospitalized him for G.I. workup was found to have mass on chest ray and who underwent lung 14 surgery for lung cancer by Dr. Maegher -- 15 16 e -- assisted by you MR DAGGETT The question Dr. Perlmutter -- 17 MR KAZAN Q. Does that refresh -- 18 MR DAGGETT - does that refresh your 19 recollection whether or not all that testimony by 20 21 22 23 Mr. Kazan is the fact A. Yes that refreshes my memory MR KAZAN Q. Do you recall such a case even though you can't put the name of Dean Walker on 24 it 25 A. Vaguely I remember I know I referred a 201 CALIFORNIA STREET , en HARRY A. CANNON INC man neammein NATABIEN NATABIEN TELEPHONE 15.301.7421 15.301.7421 15.301.7421 case to Dr. Maegher from the plant - Q. And -- MR DAGGETT nineteen sixties A. Yes The question went Doctor , | ~ . to the 5 late ie MR KAZAN Yes A. And this was someone who had worked at Pabco I had not been treating him I had not seen him before As I remember I saw him in 10 11 12 13 14 consultation for another surgical entity and then referred him to Dr. Maegher after doing the preliminary chest rays prior to surgery -Q Okay And you knew at the time that this was a man who had worked at Fibreboard 15 A. I don't -- I just remember the whole case 16 very vaguely I can't tell you definitively 17 Q. In 1969 at the time of this case that you 18 have some recollection of were you aware that 19 asbestos was thoughtto be a cause of lung cancer 20 MR DAGGETT I instruct the witness not to 21 22 23 answer It's too remote to the time he was with Pabco Doesn't make any difference whether he knew that in 1969 or not He was gone 24 25 MR KAZAN When you get a robe you can decide whether it makes a difference 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE MR DAGGETT and the record now I have to protect the witness The robe comes later if you wish to go see it MR patient KAZAN who you Q. NOW ! did recall somewhat you tell this vaguely that you thought his lung cancer was a result of asbestos exposure at Fibreboard MR DAGGETT Instruct the witness not to vv 10 11 12 13 14 answer Same ground MR KAZAN Q. During your years at Fibreboard were you ever aware of the existence of a physician by the name of Anthony Lanza -- - A. And what time was this During the time -- Q. During the time you worked at Fibreboard 15 16 or before A. No I didn't know I think I remember the 17 name subsequently 18 Q. During the years up to 1950 were you ever 19 aware of any recommendations published by the United 20 21 States Treasury Department in the Public Health Reports with respect to examination of asbestos 22 exposed factory workers 23 A. The years again 24 MR DAGGETT Up to 1950 25 MR KAZAN Q. Up to 1950 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE nr aoe? eees Q. Did you ever know up until 1950 that there 3 were recommendations in the medical literature that 4 new employees in factories using asbestos as a raw physical 5 material should be given examinations - 6 including chest rays and rejected for employment 7 if they showed any evidence of tuberculosis or 8 pneumoconiosis - 9 A. Where was this article from You're 10 reading something 11 MR DAGGETT The question is -- no Dr. 12 Perlmutter he can read and frame a question from 13 his reading and in this instance you're not 14 | entitled to ask him about that The question is 15 did you know that at any time up until 1950 16 17 18 19 20 A. I didn't know the article I never heard of it And I don't know if it's actually pertinent there that everyone should have rays prior MR KAZAN Q. My question Doctor was whether you were aware that that recommendation had 21 been made -- 22 23 24 A. Q. A. No I did not know -- at any time before 1950 No. 25 =| 0 Were you aware before 1950 at any time 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 04111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS . NOTABIES TELEPHONE ce 1 that recommendations had been made in the medical 2 literature that employees in asbestos utilizing 3 manufacturing plantbse examined physically A 5 : preferably every year but at least every two years an the examination to include ray examination of 6 the chest ||7 A. No. ; 8 Q. No one in management ever brought that to | 9 your attention 10 A. No. 11 0. Did anyone in management ever seek your E E E 12 advice or counsel with respect to what medical 13 precautions if any should be taken to protect 14 workers who were exposed to asbestos 15 MR DAGGETT That is Pabco management up | | 16 until the time he left 17 MR KAZAN That's right 18 MR DAGGETT All right 19 20 21 22 | A. No. MR KAZAN Q. Did anyone in Pabco's | management up until 1950 ever ask you to do any research into the hazards of asbestos 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did anyone ever ask you in Pabco 25 H management to go to the library and see if there was 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 04111.5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC AST ASTHAUS H ASTHAA US US ASTHAUS hee ee TELEPHONE oe ey z anything in the medical literature that was important for management to be aware of as it related to the risks of asbestos exposure A. No. \ Tr. 8 > . By Q. During the years that you on occasion saw patients in surgical consultation for Pabco that is 1950 on did anyone in connection with management either medical department or insurance department or other management ever ask you for 10 information concerning the health hazards of 11 asbestos exposure 12 13 14 15 A. No. Q. read any Doctor at any of the articles time up until 1950 by Dr. Cook in the had you British Medical Journal dealing with asbestos 16 17 18 pulmonary fibrosis MR DAGGETT Is the British Medical Journal the proper name of the publication 19 20 MR KAZAN Yes Q. Is it Doctor 21 A. I think 80 22 Q. All right 23 24 25 the A. No never read it Q. Up until 1950 had you ever read any of articles written or published by Dr. Gloyne of 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-6091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415 - 391-7421 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 England ; A. Q. A. Dr. who . e Dr. Gloyn-e- y No. nm YY s . Q. Up until 1950 had you ever read any of the articles published by Drs Lynch and Smith in the American medical literature A. Q. Gloyne No. Did you read any articles by Drs Wood and A. No. Q. Did you ever hear the name of Dr. Merewether -- w A. No. Q. Did you know prior to 1950 of the existence of the Office for the Inspection of Factories in the British government A. No. Q. Up until the 1950's were you aware of any regulations respecting the use of asbestos in English factories A. No. Q. Or in American factories A. No. Q. Including California A. No. 0. In your medical school training Doctor did you become familiar or acquainted with a text by \ Dr. Lanza called SILICOSIS ASBESTOSIS A. And that's -- - 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 MR DAGGETT Doctor A. No. MR KAZAN That's in medical school , : ~ Q. Did you become familiar with that text or portions of it at any time after its publication in 1936 up to and including 1950 A. No. Q. Did you become familiar with that text at any time subsequent to 1950 A. I heard the name Lanza and that he was interested in this type work And I haven't read anything by him Q. You never read Lanza's text A. No. 20 Q. You never read a report that is commonly 21 called the Lanza Report published in 19357 22 23 24 A. From -- Q. Public Health Reports A. Public Health -- no 25 Q. a. BULL ATAS It was a survey of asbestos ata bemris B&B Mee eehawmendn bhi 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 workers at the i Canadian mines and the asbestos textile mills in South Carolina largely recall that Do you A. Shakes head . \ a Q. Never read it A. Never read it Q. Were you acquainted at any time prior to 1950 with a report by Dr. Dreesen studyin thge asbestos textile industry in South Carolina A. No. Q. time Have you ever read that report since that A. No. Q. At any time prior to 1950 did you review or read any other articles in the literature that dealt with the subject of asbestos and lung cancer MR DAGGETT Prior to 1950 Dr. Perlmutter A. No. MR KAZAN Q. Did you read such articles at any time after 1950 MR DAGGETT Instruct the witness not to answer The only relevance in this case of Dr. Perlmutter's knowledge is that it might on one legal theory or another be Pabco's or Fibreboard's knowledge and Dr. Perlmutter's knowledge after he 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE Mttee a left Pabco is not relevantt o anythinign this case MR KAZAN I think you've said that before MR DAGGETT Well I didn't say it quite that way You can't seem understand it That's why I did it again - MR KAZAN Well before it took you ten minutes You've now boiled it down to thirty seconds 10 11 12 13 MR DAGGETT I'm improving Are you I guess I shouldn't say you don't understand it Mr. Kazan I think you do understand it .What you won't do is accept it MR KAZAN That's because you're wrong 14 Q. Doctor -- 15 MR DAGGETT You will see maybe 16 MR KAZAN Q. Doctor prior to 1950 did 17 you read any articles in the medical literature from 18 any country that raised the question of connection 19 between asbestos exposure and lung cancer 20 A. No. 21 MR DAGGETT Mr. Kazan may I call your 22 attention to the hour and our four o'clock breaking 23 24 point MR KAZAN I think you just did 25 Doctor at this point subject to reconvening 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE TELEPHONE your deposition after the court educates Mr. Daggett -- --the law that applies to your deposition I have no further questions I will not be that Mr. Daggett present tomorrow and I assume ~ you have no intention of changing your position or agreeing that I am entitled to ask the questions to which you have objected and ~ instructed the witness not to answer MR DAGGETT No sir I have no such 10 intention 11 MR KAZAN All right At this point then - 12 for the sake of the record let me say that it is my 13 14 position and I would ask the reporter to so note at the end that at the time when this deposition 15 concludes I exercise my statutory option to recess 16 17 18 the deposition rather than adjourn it for purposes of being reconvened at an appropriate later date to go into the areas that I am confident the court will 19 permit me to explore 20 Thank you Doctor It's a pleasure to see you 21 22 23 24 again MR DAGGETT Thank you ladies and gentlemen We will reconvene in this room at ten o'clock tomorrow morning 25 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE pee mrs Disha 1 Adjournment taken at 4:02 o'clock p.m. to 2 10:00 o'clock a.m. Tuesday October 30 1984 10 11 N}em., 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 | 20 21 22 23 24 25 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 01111.5001 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS NOTARIER TELEPHONE keaP) thw Bare 177 1 INDEX 2 DEPOSITION OF HENRY A. PERLMUTTER M.D.; 3 Tuesday October 30 1984 4 an ~ 5 6 Examination by \ . Page - 7 MR WARTNICK ; 182,204 00 MR BURNS 9 MR DAGGETT 195,207 ; 202 10 11 be 12 13 QUESTIONS DIRECTED NOT TO ANSWER 14 LINE 15 205/14 16 205/23 17 207/15 18 19 20 21 22 - 23 24 25 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 04111.5001 04111.5001 HARRY A. CANNON INC DSITIONS NOTARIES NOTARIES TELEPHONE 115 301.7804 301.7804 EXHIBIT EXHIBIT S Number wa. as 2 Extract PATHOLOGY An Introduction to Medicine page * doc Page 200 10 11 12 F F 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 1911.6001 1911.6001 HARRY A. CANNON INC REBACITIONE NOTIDIES TELEPHONE sae ANCESTRA ANCESTRA BE IT REMEMBERED that pursuant to adjournment of Monday October 29 1984 the deposition of HENRY A. PERLMUTTER M.D. 1984 commencing at resumed on Tuesday October 30 1 hour the of 10:10 o'clock a.m. . Studio thereof at KQED 500 8th Street B San - Francisco California before me HARRY A. CANNON a | Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in ~ and for the State of California HENRY A. PERLMUTTER M.D. 10 called as a witness by Fibreboard Corporation who 11 being by me previously duly sworn was thereupon 12 examined and testified as hereinafter set forth 13 14 CARTWRIGHT SUCHERMAN SLOBODIN & FOWLER INC 15 160 Sansome Street Suite 900 San Francisco 16 California 94104 represented by HARRY F. WARTNICK 17 Attorney at Law appeared as counsel on behalf of 18 plaintiffs and 19 KENNETH L. KNAPP Esquire 695 Town Center 20 Drive 1000 Costa Mesa California 92626 21 22 23 represented by PATRICK BURNS Attorney at Law appeared on behalf of plaintiffs and MARTIN HARRISON & DeGA 501 Shatto Place 24 Suite 100 Los Angeles California 90820 25 represented by GUY LEWIS Attorney at Law appeared 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE on behalf of plaintiffs and BROBE PHLEGER & HARRISON One Market Plaza Spear Street Tower San Francisco California 94105 represented appeared as by ROBERT S. DAGGETT Attorney a. t ~ counsel on behalf of Fibreboard Law - Corporation and ROPERS MAJESKI KOHN BENTLEY & WAGNER 655 Montgomery Street Suite 1600 San Francisco California 94111 represented by THOMAS C. NORTON 10 Attorney at Law appeared as counsel on behalf of 11 Fibreboard Corporation and C 12 BLEDSOE CATHCART BOYD ELIOT & CURFMAN 650 13 California Street Suite 2828 San Francisco 14 California 94108 represented by ELIZABETH 15 DREYFUSS Law Clerk appeared as counsel on 16 behalf of Flexitallic Gasket Company Inc and 17 18 Law Offices of WILLIAM DUKE 433 California Street Suite 330 San Francisco California 94111 19 20 represented by ROBERT PESTLEWAITE Attorney at Law appeared as counsel on behalf of H.K. Porter 21 22 Company Inc and HASSARD BONNINGTON ROGERS & HUBER 3500 Wells 23 Fargo Buildin4g4 Montgomery Street San Francisco 24 California 94104 represented by EMILY BROCKMAN 25 legal assistant appeared as counsel on behalf of 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC OS : TELEPHONE pat 304 7891 1 Pittsburg Corning and . 2 GUDMUNDSON SIGGINS & STONE 235 Montgomery 3 Street Suite 710 San Francisco California 94104 4 | represented by SUSAN PIERCE Attorney at Law behalf World 5 appeared as counsel on of Armstrong - 6 Industries Inc and 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 POPELKA ALLARD McCOWAN & JONES 601 Montgomery Street Suite 2022 San Francisco California 94111 represented by CAMILLA D. COCHRAN Attorney at Law appeared as counsel on behalf of Owens Corning Fibreglass and MCDONALD PERUSSINA & CULLOM 731 Market Street San Francisco California 94103 represented by JONATHAN BACON Attorney at Law appeared as counsel on behalf of John Hondialle Inc. and ERICKSEN ARBUTHNOT MCCARTHY KEARNEY & WALSH INC Pier 1-1 The Embarcadero San Francisco California 94111 represented by THEODORE C. LUEBKEMAN Attorney at Law appeared on behalf of NAAC ALSO PRESENT ROBERT A. BECK Esquire 23 24 25 hi 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111.5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 416 - 391-7421 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 00 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Pala HENRY A. PERLMUTTER M.D. being previously duly sworn testified as - follows Lo tke, EXAMINATION BY MR WARTNICK 1 HN MR WARTNICK Q. Good morning Doctor How are you today A. Fine Q. Good : . Doctor my name is Harry Wartnick I represent a number of plaintiffs in shipyard applicator cases and shipyard bystander cases I have a very few questions to ask you this morning First Doctor during the period 1938 to 1950 did you own a copy of the Encyclopedia Britannica A. No. Q. A. Did you have one at home No. Q. A. Or did your children have one at home No. Q. Beginning in approximately 1941 you knew that Fibreboard was making a thermal insulation product at the Emeryville plant is that correct A. I don't know if they started yet They were building the building in '41 and I'm not certain that if they commenced production in late '41 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA CALIFORNIA 94111.5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415. 415. 301.7121 int 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay They previously told us that it was very late 1941 when they commenced production So if we can go forward with that assumption Did you know what product it was that was being manufactured there A. No. That was just about the time that World War II broke out and I was in the midst of getting in the army Q. You returned in 1946 A. '46 that's right Q. And worked as the plant doctor corporate doctor -- A. Correct Q. -~ until about 1950 correct A. Yes Q. During those four years you knew that an insulation product was being made at -- A. Correct Q. -- Emeryville is that correct A. Yes Q. And you knew that that product contained asbestos A. Q. Yes You knew that that product was being used 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC a TELEPHONE eae 30-400 30-400 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 for insulation purposes at shipyards and construction sites and oil correct refineries is . that MR DAGGETT MR WARTNICK Objected Objected to as compound ee y I will rephrase Q. Doctor you knew the product was being used in shipyards correct for + insulation purposes is that A. Q. use Yes Not precisely where or how But you knew it was being put to shipyard A. Yes Q. And you knew it was being put to use at construction sites A. Yes Q. And you knew it was being put to use in oil refineries A. Yes Q. And you knew it was being put to use in other locations where temperature insulation was needed is that correct A. Yes Q. Now during the time that you were at Fibreboard you've previously told us that you knew that there was a disease called asbestosis 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISC FRANCO ISCO CALIFORNIA 01111.8001 01111.8001 HARRY A. CANNON INC Titametoatrimateat 1) ut NOTABIER TELEPHONE AK 3017104 3017104 A. Yes Q. And you've told us that your education concerning that disease was very limited is that correct A. Yes they : . ~ \ . - 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q. Can you estimate for us how much class time in medical school you actually had about the disease called asbestosis = A. It was infintesimal I would say less than one percent of all the time - much less than on percent MR DAGGETT Mr. Wartnick please forgive me but let me interrupt for just a minute Can we stop the tape Discussion off record Short recess taken MR DAGGETT Can I ask that the record show 17 that we took this short recess because it appeared 18 19 20 21 22 to those viewing the television monitor that through some kind of lighting mischance Dr. Perlmutter for the first few minutes today had a left eye that was black and the lighting people have now corrected that and if he looks just a little bit better 23 lighted as we begin again that's why 24 MR WARTNICK Q. Doctor would you estimate 25 the amount of time which you spent studying about 201 CALIFORNIA STREET Pah hi MP mrra ARrAm ONEOBUIA ONEOBUIA ONEOBUIA 04444 2001 HARRY A. CANNON INC ee ee, ee ee ee ke TELEPHONE ns o asbestosis in medical school to be an hour or less fraction 2 A. It was a of one percent a very | 3 small fraction of one percent 4 Q. An hour or less . \ discussing 5 A. Oh they were at the time - 6 mining procedures and the problems of miners and I 7 always associated asbestosis with mining 8 Q. You would estimate the amount of time to 9 be about an hour 10 11 12 A. A portion of the hour They didn't pinpoint asbestos or asbestosis Q. From the time that you left medical school 13 14 15 until you went to work for Fibreboard did you do . any study on the subject of asbestos sbestosis 16 17 18 19 20 A. No. Q. In the period that you worked for Fibreboard commencing in ~~ well strike that You kn when you were working for Fibreboard that they Were making a thermal insulation product which used 21 asbestos correct 22 23 24 A. Yes Q. You knew from medical school that asbestos could cause disease 25 A. Yes 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 15 - 391.7421 2 And you knew that the disease asbestosis could cause disability correct . row A. Yes Q. And you knew that the disease could cause | death correct - A. Yes Q. You also knew from medical school that there wa no cure for the disease asbestosis correct 10 A. Yes 11 Q. That the only way to prevent the disease A 12 or that the only thing to do about the disease was A 13 to prevent it from occurring in the first placies 14 that correct 15 16 17 18 19 A. Correct Q. Your total knowledge of the disease however was that less than an hour which you had received in medical school correct A. From recollection that's about all I can 20 21 22 remember Q. You knew that asbestos was being used at the plant in the insulation correct 23 24 A. Q. Correct And you knew that that insulation 25 being used at sites correct 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE em) ah wane 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 - A. Yes Q. Doctor from the time that that thermal until insulation factory opened at Emeryville you left Fibreboard in 1950 what what you make to learn what amount efforts any did . of asbestos exposure was necessary to cause disease MR DAGGETT I object to the form of the question as assuming responsibility Mr. that any effort was his Wartnick he's testified that it was his impression that people working with asbestos in places like the Fibreboard plant and in sites didn't get asbestosis places like applicator He said he thought it was in the mines MR WARTNICK Q. You may now answer the 15 question Doctor 16 17 18 19 20 A Repeat your question Q. From the time that the thermal insulation plant opened in Emeryville in left Fibreboard's employment late 1941 until you in 1950 what efforts if any did you make to learn what amount of 21 22 asbestos was necessary to cause disease MR DAGGETT Where I object to the form of 23 the question as indefinite Where 24 25 MR WARTNICK MR DAGGETT To any human being To any human being doing what 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC NAZIDIte NAZIDIte TELEPHONE 415 - 391-7421 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR WARTNICK asbestos Breathing dust containing MR DAGGETT Anywhere . MR WARTNICK Anywhere . yy . A. I never asked specifically the amount I Was aware and talked to the people who were working to eliminate dust and I felt that the procedures being undertaken cut the amount of asbestos dust down radically Q. To what level did they cut the dust down A. I don't know I didn't have any figures on the level Q. Did you at any time endeavor to learn what level of asbestos exposure was safe MR DAGGETT Objected to as assuming that at that time methods to do that were available MR WARTNICK You may answer the question Doctor A. Q. I didn't know any level Did you make any effort to find out A. No. Q. What efforts did you make to learn what levels of asbestos exposure workers in shipyards using your thermal insulation products were exposed to 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 MR DAGGETT Objected to as assuming he had any duties respecting those workers : : Answer if you can Doctor A. It's true had no duties respecting ~ . those workers 2 MR WARTNICK Q. Did you make any effort to find out the levels of asbestos to which they were exposed from products manufactured by your employer A. One of the things as I brought out I wa not certain whether these were contract workers 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 whether they were employees of Pabco and to this day I don't know if they were My impression was they were contract workers Q. Doctor my sole question to you is what effort if any did you make to learn what levels of asbestos exposure these workers were exposed to A. I didn't make any effort regarding this Q. During the years that you worked for Fibreboard you a were member of the Alameda County Medical Society is that correct A. Correct Q. And they maintained a library 23 24 A. Yes. Q. You had access to that library 25 A. Yes 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415 - 391-7421 ' Q. And you knew from your medical school training how to use a medical library ; A. Yes Q. During the years that you worked at Fibreboard the University of California maintained a library at its medical school in San Francisco A. Correct . Q. And you as a licensed physicihaand access | to that library 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 A. Right Q. During the years that you worked for Fibreboard Stanford University maintained its medical school in San Francisco is that correct A. Correct -- part of -- around that time they moved but they were there for awhile Q. They moved in the late fifties or sixties 17 18 19 20 21 I believe A. I don't remember what part They did it by increments Q. And they maintained a medical library in San Francisco at the medical school 22 23 A. Q. Yes And you had access to that school 24 A. 25 Q. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET Yes During the years that you were at HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE ae. ON 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Fibreboard what efforts did you make to learn about asbestosis the disease process of > MR DAGGETT Objected to as assuming that he had any reason to at Fibreboard as assuming that duty any facts gave him any to - Answer it if you can Doctor It's the same question It's not a different question because he 7. asked it again A. We did not recognize at the time that there were any cases of asbestosis or anyone was suffering from the problem because of it MR WARTNICK Q. However you knew at that time that the only solution to the problem of asbestosis wa to prevent it before it occurred correct A. Correct And we did our level best to see that the area was free of asbestos fibers Q. What efforts did you make to see that workers in shipyarddisd not inhale unsafe levels of asbestos fibers generally A. I had nothing to do with their work 22 23 practices Q. Did you at any time research what was a 24 safe level of asbestos exposure 25 MR DAGGETT Where To whom When And CALL 201 CALIFORNIA STREET FRANCISCO FRANCISCO CULFORNIA 04111.5001 04111.5001 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS . NOT~ RIES TELEPHONE 415 - 391-7421 193 1 under what circumstances - 2 MR WARTNICK Q. During the period that you at 3 worked at Fibreboard did you research any time exposure 4 what wa a safe level asbestos for human : ~ 5 beings - 6 MR DAGGETT Objected to as still vague and 7 indefinite in form ' 7 8 Answer if you can Doctor level 9 A. I did not find out what the -- any 10 11 12 that was safe MR WARTNICK Q. And you did not attempt to find out is that correct 13 -A No. 14 Q. No you did not attempt to 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 A. No I did not attempt Q. Thank you Doctor just one other line of questioning and I will be finished Yesterday after lunch Mr. Daggett asked you some questions about comments that were made between you and Mr. Kazan before lunch yesterday When you had that conversation with Mr. Kazan before lunch yesterday was it your understanding that the comments that 23 were made by both you and he were in jest 24 MR DAGGETT I object to that as calling 25 Dr. Perlmutter to determine Mr. Kazan's state upon 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SC HARRY A. CANNON INC i NAZIDIRE TELEPHONE 18 201.7421 1 of mind at the time ; 2 I will permit an answer Doctor : 3 A. that I just commented on the fact -- what 4 he said I made no interpretation of it at all 5 MR WARTNICK Q. You didn't feel threatened 6 7 8 9 10 by what he said did you A. I thought it was a little queer but it ~ didn't worry me MR DAGGETT I think the doctor's demeanor on the video tape in answering that probably says 11 more than the answer po 12 I wish you wouldn't pursue it I think it was 13 something Mr. Kazan wishes he hadn't done and I 14 think in the hands of a very seasoned lawyer and 15 counsel of record here it was a dismaying thing to 16 17 18 19 20 do with a witness MR WARTNICK Q. Doctor there were some other discussions off the record during some of the breaks yesterday also correct A. You have to be more specific 21 22 Q. Well - MR DAGGETT The doctor had none Mr. 23 24 Wartnick He was in another room MR WARTNICK Q. Well Doctor you were 25 present yesterday afternoon when Mr. Daggett came up 201 CALIFORNIA STREET mem CALICORNIA CALICORNIA 08111.5001 08111.5001 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415-391-7421 415-391-7421 415-391-7421 to Mr. Kazan in your presence and suggested that you anesthesize Mr. Kazan to level 6 you remember that MR DAGGETT stage No. No. me, It was to the sixth . MR WARTNICK Sixth stage Thank you - MR DAGGETT Yes 10 11 A. I have no comment MR WARTNICK Doctor thank you further questions I have no | MR DAGGETT Other counsel have questions of Dr. Perlmutter 12 13 14 15 MR BURNS MR DAGGETT I have just a couple Counsel Very good NATION BY MR BURNS 16 17 MR BURNS Q. Doctor my name is Patrick 18 Burns I also represent plaintiffs And I just 19 have a few questions for you please 20 .22 First of all you told us yesterday that Fibreboard had a dust control system that wa 22 instituted in the plant 23 A. Yes 24 Q. And do you recall about what year`that year`that was 25 started Doctor 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 1 2 3 4 " 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 A. I can't remember the year these plants were built but the original engineer at that time > wa aware of dust problems and commenced some sort of removal Now subsequently much more complete were the dust removal techniques instituted in - asbestos plant including very powerful exhaust fan -- fans -- I can't remember if there was more than one -- and differential in pressure so that it wa a sort of a vacuum effect at times Q. And Doctor what was the name of this first engineer who instituted the control system A. I am not positive of the name One of them was Mr. Rosen And he's dead now Has been for years MR DAGGETT Doctor --~- excuse me -- but these simple plain questions don't call for a monologue This question just calls for do you remember the name A. I don't remember for certain I just remember that one name And I don't know when he 21 22 23 24 was there MR BURNS Q. All right And I believe yesterday you told us the names of some of the other gentlemen who held that position -- 25 A. Yes 201 CALIFORNIA STREET eg nt ema HARRY A. CANNON INC BERACION NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415 - 391-7421 Q. e+including Mr. Hoopes later on 2 A. Mr. Hoopes I know that definitely 3 Q. All right When this first system was 4 started by Mr. Rosen or whomever at that time was 5 this prior to your going into the army : 6 A. Yes 7 Q. So it would have been in the period of 8 prior to 19427 - 9 A. I don't know how effective it was at that 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 time Q. All right And was it at this time that the system was licensed to the other companies A. Q. No. It was after that This was after you returned from World War II that it was licensed to other companies A. Oh wait a minute I can't remember the exact time it was licensed I had nothing to do with 18 the arrangements 19 Q. Of course 20 MR DAGGETT Doctor you don't have to 21 explain to this record or these lawyers why you 22 don't remember 23 A. All right 24 MR BURNS Q. All right So you're not 25 sure -- 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111-5091 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415-391-7421 415-391-7421 415-391-7421 10 11 12 MR DAGGETT Doctor I want to advise you of something A fair case can be made for the proposition logically that there is never any reason why you don't remember Please 4, necessary always to give one don't . consider it = MR BURNS 0 You are not sure then Doctor whether service this that was the before or licensing after your military agreement took place A. No I can't remember the time Q. All right And do you recall the names of the companies in the United States who bought the license 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 .A I don't remember them MR DAGGETT that Mr. Burns There wasn't any testimony of The testimony was that he thinks there was a license to people in Darlington England MR BURNS Q. Well my understanding of yesterday's testimony and please correct me if I am wrong Doctor was there were three companies in the United States and one company in England A. That's what I remember Q. But you don't recall any of the names of the companies 24 25 A. None of them no Q. Fine 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC eo MR DAGGETT I stand corrected Excuse me MR Q. BURNS Doctor Certainly at the time this = dust control system was instituted did you have any discussions with Mr. Rosen or any other company official - regarding the desire to eliminate the asbestos dust from the atmosphere 10 A. No I had no conversations with Rosen Q. Or any other company official A. No. 11 Q. Was your advice ever sought regarding the asbestos 12 removal of the dust from the plant 13 -A No. 14 15 16 17 Q. At any time did any company official official discuss with you any hazard of asbestos dust to the workers in the plant A. No. 18 19 20 21 Q. Doctor I would now like to hand you four or five pages that have been stapled together Counsel if you would like to take a look at it first 22 MR DAGGETT Yes I would Thank you very 23 much Mr. Burns Examining 24 This is the well known extract from what the 25 doctor called 201 CALIFORNIA STREET the antique Boyd on HARRY A. CANNON INC Pathology ee cry copyrighted in 1934 MR BURNS That's correct 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 MR DAGGETT still another time I assume you want that marked | \ ~ ; y MR BURNS Please Yes - Five document extract A TEXT of PATHOLOGY AN INTRODUCTION TO MEDICINE by William Boyd marked for identification Exhibit 2 MR DAGGETT All right He'll probably ask you if you have ever seen that before MR BURNS Q. Well Doctor I believe in fact that after your last deposition that you copied . that yourself and forwarded that either to the reporter or to the attorneys for Fibreboard or Mr. Kazan 17 A. That was the first discussion I had with 18 anyone concerning my previous knowledge 19 20 21 22 MR DAGGETT Mr. Burns you've struck a major blow for the truth in discovery At long last we know why that copy is illegible MR BURNS I'm sorry Would you read back the 23 doctor's last answer 24 Answer read as follows That wa my first 25 discussion I had with anyone concerning my previous 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE knowledge 0 Of asbestosis Doctor x MR DAGGETT Doctor the question was whether back to you the copied that reporter or from a * the book lawyers and sent it one of the lawyers That was the question A. I did not copy this Hudson -- Miss Nanette -- 10 11 12 13 14 15 MR DAGGETT Doctor the question didn't call for who copied it It just said A No I did not copy it did you MR BURNS All right . .Q Was that copy made of the book by Professor Boyd that was in your possession A. Yes 16 17 Q. Doctor All right And who did make that copy 18 19 20 21 22 A. Miss Nanette Hudson Q. All right And Doctor that book that we have here PATHOLOGY by William Boyd that was the book that you had studied while you were in medical school 23 A. Yes, 24 25 MR BURNS All right Fine Thank you I have no other questions 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE MR DAGGETT Other counsel have questions of the witness No response 7 iu Thank you ay + . * . - FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR DAGGETT MR DAGGETT Q. I have just one or two on redirect Dr. Perlmutter which will focus very briefly on testimony you gave in answer to questions 10 by Mr. Kazan yesterday respecting the transcript and 11 video tape of the deposition Mr. Kazan took of you 12 on November 13 1982 I believe in Tucson 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 I call your attention to your testimony yesterday in answer to Mr. Kazan's questions that after you received the reporter's transcript of your deposition you noticed certain corrections you would have liked to make and I call your attention also to your testimony yesterday that you knew of no inaccuracy in the video tape recording of your deposition testimony with that background I will 21 ask these few questions 22 When you got the written reporter's transcript 23 of your 1982 deposition and you read certain of the 24 25 questions and answers throughout the transcript were you satisfied with the answers you gave at the 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 g 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 A. No. MR WARTNICK Objection 6. It is vague and ambiguous a . \ upon MR DAGGETT Q. Were you satisfied Doctor reading the questions that the answer you gave was the answer you wanted to give to the question as you read it rather than heard it A. No I was not satisfied Q. Do you recall whether or not some of the questions at your 1982 deposition were rather long A. That's correct 0 Did some of the questions have assumptions or elements in them which you identified when you read the questions which you were unaware of when you heard them 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 A. That's correct Q. And as a opportunity would result of that if given the you have liked to have amplified some of the answers you gave A. That's correct Q. Tell us whether or not you would have liked to have qualified some of the answers you gave A. Correct 25 Q. 201 CALIFORNIA STREET And would you have liked to have added to HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE y - some of the answers you gave A. Correct wa, Q. And were there some that you just plain would have liked to correct A. Yes MR DAGGETT Thank you - I have no further questions MR WARTNICK I have one or two on your | 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 examination MR DAGGETT Very good That's your microphone over there FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR WARTNICK MR WARTNICK Q. Doctor the answers reported in that transcript are the answers which you gave correct A. Some of the sentences as they were typed typed out Were a little garbled Some of them as I started reading them and saw the printed word and the sentences and paragraphs were a little confusing and I would like to have had them 21 22 23 clarified Q. When was it that you saw that transcript MR DAGGETT He said that yesterday But go 24 ahead answer it again Doctor 25 A. I called Mr. Rappeport because I expected 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC . TELEPHONE the attorney -- " . MR WARTNICK Q. The question Doctor is when did you see that transcript A. Months later Months later Q. That would be two years ago now - A. Yeah 10 11 12 Q. Have you made any corrections in the past two years to that transcript MR DAGGETT I will stipulate Mr. Wartnick that no corrections of record have been made MR WARTNICK Q. that correct You have not Doctor is 13 A I have not 14 Q. Do you intend to 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 MR DAGGETT He's not going to answer that We're not quite sure what we're going to do about it because his present counsel discovered this only recently He has testified yesterday that during been the interim he's in doubt about whether he had the right But he'll make up his mind what to do and that will either be nothing or something and he will do it with counsel I hope 23 24 25 MR WARTNICK Q. You agree Doctor that you have had approximately two years within which to | make those corrections Po ae ee 201 CALIFORNIA STREET ereee HARRY A. CANNON INC wee 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 MR DAGGETT Don't answer the question in that form Doctor That assumes that he knew what his rights were and he knew of the procedure to use in enforcing his rights he's testified that he . and didn't MR WARTNICK Q. Did you receive a letter from the court reporter telling you you had the right to make corrections to the deposition A. I don't recall what was in that letter I understood that I was to get the transcript immediately as it was typed and that I would have an opportunity to correct it MR DAGGETT Perhaps Mr. Wartnic cak n tell you Doctor how you correct a transcript you haven't got because you have a letter from the reporter saying you can MR WARTNICK I am now totally confused MR DAGGETT That's pretty much what it is MR WARTNICK - We finally found something we can agree on MR DAGGETT MR WARTNICK We have now reached -~Doctor I have no further 23 questions 24 MR DAGGETT This is epistemological 25 equilibrium Apparently there are no further 201 CALIFORNIA STREET em AUKARNIA AUKARNIA AUKARNIA AUKARNIA 111.5001 111.5001 HARRY A. CANNON INC DEPOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415-391-7421 415-391-7421 1 questions ; 2 MR BURNS Just a couple other Counsel 3 MR DAGGETT Oh excuse me Mr. Burns BY 4 FURTHER EXAMINATION MR BURNS Perlmutter 5 MR BURNS 0 Doctor at that 6 deposition approximately two years ago you were counsel 7 represented there your own were you not 8 A. Yes ~ 9 10 Q. That was in addition to attorneys for Fibreboard Fibreboard 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ; 24 A. Correct Q. They were not one and the same different attorneys A. Correct They were Q. And do you recall at the time of that deposition that the attorneys did make objections to certain of the questions that were asked MR DAGGETT itself Mr. Burns MR BURNS MR DAGGETT The transcript will speak for He's not going to answer that All right No other questions All right Dr. Perlmutter apparently there is no further examination of you at this deposition Thank you 25 201 CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 98111.5001 98111.5001 HARRY A. CANNON INC 7 TELEPHONE TELEPHONE 1 Deposition closed at 10:45 - see page re 2 Mr. Kazan's remark re adjourning of deposition 4 - ~~ he * . 5 N . \ , . * . . 50 Signature of Witness 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 201 CALIFORNIA STREET ea mee CALCODNIA 81444 5001 HARRY A. CANNON INC REBOSITIONS - NOTARIES TELEPHONE 415 - 391-7421 STATE OF CALIFORNIA . } 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CITY AND COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO ) Ak . = , ~ I hereby certify that the witness in the foregoing deposition named HENRY A. PERLMUTTER M.D. was by me duly sworn to testify the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth in the entitled cause that said deposition was taken at the time and place therein stated that the testimony of said witness was reported by me HARRY A. CANNON a Certified Shorthand Reporter and disinterested person and was thereafter transcribed into typewriting and that the pertinent provisions of the applicable code or rules of civil procedure relating to the notification of counsel the witness and for the parties hereto of the availability of the original transcript of deposition for reading correcting and signing have been complied with And I further certify that I am not of counsel for either or any of the parties to said or attorney deposition nor in any way interested in the outcome So HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE of the cause named in said caption IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto set my hand and affixed my seal of office the 5th day of \ > November 1984 ~ yY 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 201 CALIFORNIA STREET HARRY A. CANNON INC TELEPHONE . . - . Ee 7 - Henry Perlmutter M.D. / Brobeck Phleger & Harrison One Market Plaza Spear Street Tower San Francisco Ca 94105 Certified Reporters and Notaries HIBERNIA BANK BUILDING . SUTTE 201 TS CALIFORNIA STREET SAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111 TELEPHONE 415 841.7691 == 550 Date November 9 1984 In Re ASBESTOS PRO PRO DUCTCASES DUCTCASES Dear Dr. Perlmuter Pursuant to the provisions of 2019 e and f CCP 1/1/79 and as amended by AB 4/2/79 you are advised that your deposition taken in the above matter on October 29-30 1984 is available at this office for your review reading and signing and the making of such corrections as you deem necessary Section 2019 provides that you have thirty days following receipt of this letter within which to avail yourself of the opportunity to read correct and sign your deposition There is an alternate provision i.e. The deponent may correct or approve or refuse to approve the deposition for a period of 30 days following this notification by means of a letter addressed and mailed or delivered to our office Underlining added . . ; Very truly yours HARRY A. CANNON INC Invoice 190 Mun ...,_ HITZ BR rane oe ACD Certified Reporters and Notaries HIBERNIA BANK BUILDING - SUITE 550 / Brobeck Phleger & Harrison One Market Plaza Spear Street Tower San Francisco Ca 94105 Date BAN FRANCISCO CALIFORNIA 94111 TELEPHONE 616 391-7621 an November 9 1984 In Re Asbestos Product Cases Dear Dr. Perlmutter Pursuant to the provisions of 2019 e CCP effective 1/7/77 and FRCP 30 e you are advised that your deposition in the above matter taken on October 29-30 1984 is available at this office for your reading and signing and the making of such corrections as you deem necessary In the event you have not read and signed your deposition by December 15 1984 the Court unsigned , it will be filed with the Clerk of . Very truly yours HARRY A. CANNON INC Invoice # 190 Reporter Harry A. Cannon CSR Fed teh Dt * 4 a 7 - - 7 4 _.. The Journal : American Medical Association . . . . . . . . . . . . . . - . . . - . - . . . . . . . y> . . . * ee . . ; . . ; . . EDITED FOR THE ASSOCIATION UNDER THE DIRECTION OF THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES BY MORRIS FIShbein M.D. + 4 reek 4 he, if Sly. wo. . - see -+-. Ste, fy es Vet + by ait . ee. ys. oy of herr 340. Ga arre, 3 vO, - t- EDITORIALS EDITORIALS 1612 ?- accelerated accelerated in the magnetic field of the ydrogen target machine ASBUnErtieSlcTenOtSeIS by investigatorosff Until recently recently the the coincidence sice the assumptionassumption was ofthe the granted that neutrons were cer cer a AND CANCER OF THE LUNG recente recente recente recente lung theconsidered manyinvestigators coincidence Since 1935 23 such cases were recorded no more than five times as effective as roentgen rays by American English and German pl~-ysicians Wedler or biologic purposes Recent work 'and the sad expe- ience ofthese young physicists point to the probability hat a grave underestimate was made and that for cer- zin organ systems such as the lens and the gonads eutrons may have four to eight times the effectiveness about a noted 14 cases of asbestosis cancer in series of 92 necropsies on patients with asbestosis or per cent of cancer of the lungin persons who died from this industrial disease The exposure time ranged from 3 to 27 years average 15 years The ages Unfortunately asbestosis originally suspected . in 17 cases were 35 to 75 years average 50 years for the physicists protection pro-Until now the question of a causal relation between edures and exposure limits were based on the earlier and caucer of the lung has been an open ssumption Once again as in the past with roentgen one The recently published Annual Report of the ays and radiumi people have unwittingly been injured Chief Inspector of Factories in England for 1917 efore an adequate understanding of a hazardous agent as had Furthermore even now dosimetric methods for neutrons are unsatisfactory - 23 provides additional data on the actual existence of such interrelations During years 1924 to 1946 inclu- interrelations sive 235 deaths either caused by asbestosis or in which An understanding of the mechanism of interaction of radiation with the components of biologic matter ecomes important In the case of roentgen rays the energy is first given to electrons which move at high peed through the tissue These electrons in turn Hissipate their energy by collision with biologic matter causing chemical alterations However the damage to my one cell by one electron is relatively small asbestosis had been established at necropsy were reported to the Chief Inspector Cancer of the lungs or pleura was found in 31 of these cases 13.2 per cent Of the 128 male deaths in this group 22 172 per cent were complicated by cancer of the lung while of the 107 female deaths 9 8.4 per cent were similarly affected The mean age at death from asb tosis complicated by cancer the lung was 52.1 years A causal relation between asbestosis and cancer of the In the case of neutrons the energy is principally dis- lung is supported by the following observations The cipated component cipated by collision with the hydrogenous t<issue The high speed protons thus set in motion iberate a large amount of energy per unit length of incidence rate of cancer of the lungin this group is excessive since the normal death rate from cancer of the lung among adults examinedat necropsy at path Thus the passage of one high energy proton present is about per cent of all necropsies Moreover through a cell may produce sufficient destruction to there is a distinct shift in the sex distribution of cancer njure it permanently ; of the lung in the series of asbestosis cancers reported There is evidence that roentgen rays are relatively from England The female sex ratio is 24 qualitatively effective only against dividing cells while neutrons inay while it is 5 for cancers of the lung in general ajure the cell at any phase Thus the biologic effects - This shift indicates that an environmental and eviproduced by neutrons may be both quantitatively and dently occupational carcinogen was active in the asbes- different from the effects of the roentgen tosis group tending to equalize the incidence rate of cancer of the lung for both sexes Recent experimental ray The urgency for researchin this relatively unex- observations support this interpretation of clinical evi_ plored field is evident - dence Nordmann and Sorge exposed mice to inhala- In a broader sense the experience of these young tion of asbestos dust and found that in 20 per cent physicists points to the tremendous responsibility of the surviving animals developed squamous cell devolving on those the engineers and cancer originating from the bronchial mucosa while the agencies supporting their work are concerned other types of epithelial proliferation were present in with exploring the new frontiers of the physical 42 to 57 per cent of these animals in addition to di^-use sciences It is not enough to dismiss the responsibility or nodular fibrosis of the lung The histologic character with the mere warning that a danger may exist or of the cancers cell cancer instead of adeno- squamous to extrapolate as was done with the neutron fro carcinoma seen in the spontaneous cancer of the lung histogenetic inadequate analogies The hiologic implications of the of mice and the derivation of the tumors new unknowns should be subjected to investigation bronchialmucosa instead of alveolar epithelium of the parallel with their physical implications and with equalspontaneous type indicato spreihe factor of vigor . & Stone K. .; Neutron Therapy aml Spaci^-e Junization Ain J. Scentgrind 59 771-785 1June 1918 Krany T. .: The Lfects of Small Daily Inces of Fast Neutrons on Mice Radiology 50 SU sche1. Wedler H. W Asbestu...e un Lungrakeen Deutsche nel Wicha 19 573 1913 2. Extract from Annual Report of the Chel Inspector of Factories foc the Year 1947 Medical Section London His Majesty's Summery Quice 1947 19. 15-17 1. Xudumu M. and Sorer .: Luzzestrede Luzzestrede Zurch Kompo .. ^fi fa. oe CURRENT COMMENT exogenous origin represented by the inhaled responsible fatest was for the bronchial patient why was fatest didicating ? tos producing syregion ne and Since satic f oud workers age employed dance ashes uphritis a death fatest of chic glomer industries of this in the ufentia Such occurred with the and many aditional perhaps additional country and Canada changes in the kidney are thousands in various asbestos interpreted as accidental consuming industries increased attention to this direct relationship to the necropsy findings with able syndrome discuss . occupational hazard of prob- A disease rabbits under in medical cancer of the lung by the apparently analogous to that profession is desirable Cytologic examinations of the bronchial secretion panicultis may well be included in the nonsuppurative by panniculitis in man has been descri Reynals and others The periodic examination of workers Christian's disease is unknown cause of Wel dust whenever clinical exposed to asbestos 1 or roentgenologic evidence indi- vette, \ * cates the possible existence of a pulmonary CRISIS IN SCIENTIFIC cancer As the available evidence shows that the Further evidence that RESEARCH of cancer of the lung is related to occurrence coordinate and the medical profession m 7 uy _ and is not merely a possible seqpueullamoonfareyxpaossbuersetostios carry on experiimnetnentsailfystiutsdipersotoenctiaonnimoaflsthien right lato tories is provided in asbestos dust in all fatal cases of asbestosis there should be in the District of a report on this type of legislati Representatives os logic postmortem examination with detailed histo- Columbia twenty national fr analysis The anatomic lesions produced by hospitals lay health and science f asbestos dust in the groups and lungs make difficult at times dis- united behind governmental agencies ha . tinction by clinical and roentgenologic diagnostic tory use of theSenate bill 1703 providing for labor unclaimed >. methods between changes of pneumoconiotic 7,000 to 10,000 and destroyed each dogs to those that might nature frenzied year in the District pound The us indicate a cancerous growth distortion and political sectionists have placed the bill in pressure by antiviv . Medical the National National Society Society for jeopardy, according i Research It Current Comment - society qeuffect otes Dr. A. IvyIvy its Christian's disease Hower to the mittee effect that members of the secretary : NODULAR , PANNICULITIS mittee to whiwhichch the bill was referrespdecial Senate con CHRISTIAN DISEASE favor of it but the bill are personally i Lf out Dr. Ivy has probably issued will not be repate or nonsuppurative nod- ular panniculitis is characterized by recurring episodes sons write letters of an appeal that interested per of endorsement Rhode to Senator J. McGrath of fever and the development of numerous painful and sure and Senator Island who introduced the met mo slightly tender subcutaneous nodules In only 3 of Margaret Chase Smith of Maiz chairman 33 recorded cases was death apparently due to the of the subcommittee Some such Maiz - disease In the case reported by Kritzler in which action is concerts concerts necessary at state as well as national . necropsy was done the nodular lesions were limited to beat back efforts of a obstruct small misgaided leve ; science 7 to the subcutaneous fat However fat emboli the advancement of group group 1 were . found in the lungs and there was widespread acute . : Te . oy necrosis of the liver and spleen In the case examined at necropsy by Spain and Foley necrotic areas were FIRST TELEVISION NETWORK : SHOW HEALTH first found not only in the subcutaneous fat but in the The health education mesenteric omental and pretracheal fat Fat emboli on a television network program ever present was viewed and heard fro were not found in the lungs nor were areas of necrosis far west observed in the liver or spleen However foci of fat June 16. Transmitted as as necrosis were present in the region of the pancreas program titled Your Good Health Chicago u A third case investigated at necropsy was that of Mostoh and Engleman in which nonsuppurative pan Atom was arranged through the and the Might Bureau of He Education of the American Medical . niculitis involved the skin the epicardium and the peri- > produced under the supervision pancreatic periadrenal perirenal and mesenteric tissues Hester radio coordinator for the Association : of Mrs. Har The nodules in the fat are of variable gram dealt with the use of Bureau The pr medicin The earliest lesions consist of small appearance particularly radioactive radioisotopes iodine in of laden macrophages what larger lesions that accumulations Later there are some- small Chief isotopes Dr. Paul Division United C. Aebersol nergy Commission Oak States Atem present areas of central necrosis in the immediate vicinity of which are lympho- viewed by an NRC Ridge Terai was inte announcer on the cytes polynuclear leukocytes and laden mitto- radiosetivity With a Geiger counter principles specially any phages In still older nodules the necrotic material identified is decreased or absent and the lesions are partially or fied Dr. Achersold demonstrated first how can be traced and afums radioactivi Later with a completely replaced by fibrous tissue In Spain and furnished by Dr. Sidney C. Werner Columbia pazis of Physicians and Surgeons and Presbyterian Col 1. Kritzler .; A Case of Presbyterian Path Sc 1959-1931 1959-1931 p 47 2. Spain M. and Christian's Disease Proc New York he demonstrated concentration of radioactive Hioodsipniet Path 20 1st 1994 Foley J. M Suppurative Pouniculitis A the thyroid - eee ee AN INTRODUCTION TO MEDICINE - BY WILLIAM BOYD ~. M.D. M.R.C.P. Fl F.R.C.P. Lond Dipl Psych F.R.S.C. PROFESSOR OF PATHOLOUT IN THE UNIVERSITY OF MANITOBA PATHOLOGIST TO THE WINNIPEG GENERAL HOSPITAL WINNIPED CANADA SECOND EDITION THOROUGHLY REVISED ILLUSTRATED WITH 416 EngravinGS AND 8 COLORED PLATES LEA & FEBIGER PHILADELPHIA PREFAC PREFAC ALTHOUGH only book was publishe The order of the COPYRIGHT COPYRIGHT LEA & FEBIGER 1034 ation of the dege turbances especial leads up naturally whilst immunity follow in logical seq from tumors The ter in which an end so that the student Acumpad, starts upon his jour is occupied mainly disease concludes the constitution of 1 SECOND EDITION Copyrighted August 1934 Reprinted October October 1931 dence and progress bacterial infections more logical order a immunity and allerg largely rewritten A second part of the b of the teeth regarding Among other new trauma von Gierke's dren the localization ry, causation of anginal angiitis obliterans m born duodenitis sta PRINTED IN U. A. ture in chronic Brigh the ovary sweat glas roid tumors Cushing tension monocytic h Geschickter and Cop aR a sae, a agerg ete ae eS Fy sos Tee oy stone dust conta of time iz The pa ra 4%: te brane brane by be, are sharp a is slowly chemical and the- respondin to the to { Fig 1757 Palpated Palpated Fibrosis Fibrosis THE PNEUMOCONIOSES cause inhalation of certain irritating dusts may dust The continued konis ; pneumoconiosis a chronic interstitial pneumonia known is as entirely dependent on the pres The outcome of tohfesseildiucastindtihseeadseusst The dangerous pneumoconios fatal fatal be disabling or ence and amount silicosis and asbestosis both of which may cond of carbon in aArnethracosis a condition caused by the inhalation . ee the sa Fe dust is harmless in comparison of the dust diseases and pro- 4s lics patier Saldanwoe Silicoseriosus Tihiss is the most important industry in certain districts fF lics dust bronna districts Ae? Sr vides a serious hazard in the mining Ontario If K aete the South African Rand and northern a smuicnhinags hard rock has to be drilled through miners whe ro suffer Other occupations in which there is danger are mining working grinding and blasting In all of these dust containing fine particles of silica may be inhaled cases of time over long periods in The particles which are taken up from the bronchial mucous meta- brane by phagocytes and carried into the lymphatics in the are sharp and angular but the real danger lies in the fact stroma that is slowly soluble in tissue fluids and in this form silica chemical action When injected subcutaneously it preoxdeurctsesanescpercoisfiisc and the slow reaction in the lung results partly necrosis but to much greater degree in fibrosis The fibrosis is at first responding to the deposits of silica in minute patchy cor- to the terminal bronchioles and takes the forlmymopfhsifloilcloictliecs naodjdaucleenst Fig 175 composed of concentric layers of fibrous tissue and palpated in the lung These nodules gradually coalesce anrdeadily fibrosis becomes widespread In extreme cases the the lung becomes stony stony ailica the result of irritation by particles of X 12 hard and in one instance I had to saw the lung in two The functional capacity of the lungs is greatly interfered with and the chief is marked dyspnea The necrotizing action of the silica maysylmepadtotmo destruction and cavitation but these changes are usually due to an accompanying tuberculosis _ Most silicotics die of tuberculosis because the the tissues favors the growth of tubercle presence of silica in bacilli degree This was shown by Gye and Kettle who to an astonishing we of silica and tubercle bacilli into mice and injected observed a mixture ae . opment of the tuberculous lesion When silica is injveecrtyedraspuibdculetvaenle- e ously tubercle bacilli are injected intravenously on the following day the same effect is observed The tuberculous infection to which ene the patient succumbs may be acquired before or after ge silica dust exposure to . me OT, Pulmonary asbestosis is due to the inhalation of asbestos dust which emr ITT contain over 50 per cent of silics The disease is acquired either duringmtahye teeem Ee. e me ee me 460 THE RESPIRATORY SYSTEM crushing of asbestos rock or in the process of carding the asbestos The lung shown the airless and fibrosed condition found in silicosis and on the cut sur- face there are areas of cascation with cavity formation The characteristic microscopic feature in addition to a large amount of silica dust is the presenc of large angular particles which are probably fragments of asbestos fibers and curious golden bodies with a globular end and segmented body Fig 176. The latter structures which may be called asbestos bodies are pathognomonic of the condition but their exact nature is not understood Anthracosis due to coal dust is the commonest but lenst harmful of the dust diseases It found in coal- miners but a varying amount of coal dust is present in every lung at autopsy and no sharp line can be drawn as to the amount which constitutes anthracosis insoluble It does not cause much irritation as it is and a lung may be loaded with it yet show littl fibrosis The carbon particles are taken up by mono- nuclear phagocytes and deposited in the interlobular septa the deep layers of the pleura and the bronchial lymph nodes All of these structures and especially the lymph nodes acquire a black color Anthra cosis does not predispose to tuberculosis indeed miners are singularly free from that disease right i Foreig forma sinuse down absces the for prognc 4. Cause } S being abscess be in is large abscess 3. T