Document ympMQ1NrarjMReLp09052QXK3

1 !: 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA 2 MIAMI DIVISION 3 FLORIDA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY, ) 4 a Florida corporation , et a 1 . , ) 5 P1 aintif f s , 6 vs . 7 ALLIS-CFIALMERS CORPORATION , et ale. 8 Defendants. 9 ) ) ) Case No . ) 86-1571-CIV-ATKINS ) ) ) ) 10 11 Depo sition of Witness WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 12 On Behalf of the Plaintiffs 13 14 June 12, 1990 15 16 17 18 Direct Examination by Mr . Wilcox. . . Page 8 Cross-Examination by Mr e Burke .... Page 103 19 Cross-Examination by Mr . Me In to s h . . Page 131 Cross-Examination by Ms . Montes . . . Page 133 20 Cross-Examination by Mr . Nettleton. . Page 135 21 22 23 24 Reported by: 25 JUNE M. FUNKHOUSER, RPR, CCR, CSR of CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059392 1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 2 Plaintiffs' Page Depo . E x . Marked 3 No . 1 10 4 No . 2 10 5 Page Iden . 10 -- De s cription Curriculum Vitae Letter Signed by E. Wheeler, 3-3-69 6 No . 3 43 Letter Signed by D. Olson, 2-18-70 7 No . 4 44 44 Letter Signed by 8 J. Bryant, 9-15-70 9 No . 5 44 - - Letter Signed by R. Graham, 12-15-70 10 No . 6 44 45 Status Report Given By 11 W. Papageo rg e 12 No . 7 44 47 Transformer Askarel Inspection & Maintenance 13 Guide, Monsanto 14 No . 8 44 85 Letter w/Attachment / 15 Signed by H. Bergen, 2-4-72 16 No . 9 17 18 No . 10 19 20 No . 11 21 44 44 44 51 Letter w/Attachment, W. Papageorge to W. Reinhardt, 9-1-70 53 Presentation by W. Papageorge, ANSI Committee C10 7 Meeting, 9-14-71 ,, _ Letter, W. Papageorge to A. Salazar, 1-4-72 2 2 No . 1 2 44 56 Documents 2 3 No . 13 ^o "/3If 25 No . 14 44 44 58 ANSI Minutes w/Attachments, jr 0 Id 0 X 9 7 2 98 NEMA Minutes CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 ......WATER PCB-SD0000059393 3 1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS CONT'D 2 Plaintiffs' D e p o. Ex. 3 No . 1 5 4 Page Marked 44 Page Iden . 72 Description American National Standa rd Guidelines 5 No . 16 6 44 - - Letter w/Attachment Signed by E. Raab, 3-9-76 8 9 Original exhibits retained by counsel for Plaintiffs 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059394 4 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA 2 MIAMI DIVISION 3 FLORIDA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY, ) a Florida corporation, et al,, ) 4) Plaintiffs, ) 5) vs . ) Case No. 6 ) 86-1571-CIV-ATKINS ALLIS-CHALMERS CORPORATION , ) 7 et a 1 . , ) ) 8 Defendants. > 9 DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM B. 10 PAPAGEORGE, produced, sworn and examined on the part of the Plaintiffs, pursuant to Notice and Subpoena 11 and pursuant to the following stipu1 ation, between the hours of eight o'clock in the forenoon and six 12 o'clock in the afternoon of Tuesday, June 12, 1990, at offices of Clayton Reporting Company, 111 S. 13 Bemiston, Suite 124, in the County of St. Louis, State of Missouri, before me, 14 JUNE M. FUNKHOUSER 15 Registered Professional Reporter of 16 CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD., 17 a Notary Pub lie in and for the County of St. Louis, State of Missouri, in a certain cause now pending in 18 the United States District Court, Southern District of Florida, Miami Division, wherein FLORIDA POWER & 19 LIGHT COMPANY, a Florida corporation, et a 1 . are the Plaintiffs and ALLIS-CHALMERS CORPORATION, et a 1 . 20 are the Defendants . 21 Appearances: 22 For Plaintiffs: 23 24 25 Rudnick & Wolfe Attorneys at Law 101 East Kennedy Suite 2000 Tampa, FL 33602 By: Mr. John W. B1v d. Wilcox CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059395 5 1 For Westinghouse Electric: 3 4 5 For RTE Co rpo ration: 6 8 For Central Mo 1oney, 9 Inc.: 10 11 12 13 For Kuh1man Electric: 14 15 16 For Allis-Chalmers: 17 18 19 2 0 For Genera 1 Electric: 21 22 23 24 25 Popham, Haik, Schnobrich & Kaufman, Ltd. Attorneys a t Law 4100 One Centrust Financial 100 S.E. Second Street Miami, FL 33131 By: Mr. Paul L. Nettleton Ctr. Ma gi11 & Lewis, P . A . Attorneys at Law 7211 Southwest 62nd Avenue Suite 200 Miami, FL 33143 By: Ms. Ye 1va Montes Foley & Lardner, Van Den Berg, Gay, Burke, Wilson & Arkin Attorneys at Law 111 North Orange Avenue Suite 1800 P .O . Box 2193 Orlando, FL 32802 By : Mr. David A. Baker Dickinson, Wright, Moon, Van Dus e n & Freeman Attorneys a t Law 800 First National Building Detroit, MI 48226 By: Mr. Herbert G. Sparrow, III Cor 1ett, Killian, Ober, Hardeman, Me Into sh & Levi Attorneys at Law 116 West Flagler Street Miami, FL 33130 By: Mr. David F. McIntosh Rumberger, Kirk, Caldwe11, Cabanis s, Burke & Wechs1er Attorneys a t Law 11 East Pine Street P . 0. Box 1873 Or1ando, FL 32802 By: Mr. Thoma s M. Burke CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059396 6 1 For Monsanto and the deponent: 2 3 4 5 Also Present: 6 y Smith, Helms, Mulliss & Moore Attorneys at Law 300 North Greene Street Suite 1400 P.O. Box 21927 Greensboro, NC 27420 By: Mr. Gerard H. Davidson, Jr. Mr. Frank Rankin Rankin Reporting & Legal Video Service 8 MR. BAKER: Would the reporter note 9 the time and note Mr. Wilcox's absence. 10 (The time is noted as 9:06 a.m.) 11 k'k-k'k-k'fc'kk'k'k 12 MR . BURKE: For the record, my name 13 is Tom Burke. I represent GE . 14 Served upon all defendants very 15 recent 1y, there was an amended not ice of taking this 16 deposition served June the 6th indicating this will 17 be a videotaped deposition. I'm unaware of any 18 stipulation or any order of the court that permitted 19 the videotaped depo sition, and I don't know that the 20 rule got changed like it did in state court to 21 permit videotape as a matter of right. 22 So for the record we are objecting to a 2 3 videotaped deposition. z. MR. NETTLETON: Before we swear the 2 5 witness, my name is Paul Nett 1eton. I represent CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD . (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059397 7 1 Westinghouse Electric C orpora tio n. 2 As Judge Atkins ruled at his previous 3 pretrial conf erence, I think it's stipulated that 4 any objection made by any def endant will be valid 5 and preserved for all defendants. 6 MR. WILCOX: I have no objection to that . 8 MR. BURKE: I think that because 9 this is trial testimony, John, I think what we need 10 to do isget all the objections on the tape and the 11 transcriptso they can be ruled on and they can be 12 edited if necessary. 13 MR. WILCOX: I agree. 14 MR. BURKE: Okay. Good. 15 MR. WILCOX: I have no problem with 16 that . I intend to be brief this morning. I hope we 17 can finish today. Very much try to do so. 18 MR . DAVIDSON: We would very much 19 like that. 2 0 MR. WILCOX: Okay. Would you go 21 ahead and swear the witness, please? 22 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, 2 3 being produced, sworn and examined on behalf of the OA Z nF1 i.dI i-Oi. tI iiiy-. f U. f_c_J__J__J_U_ _2A,L.UII _cL,,11.3U. a d 1 til . 25 CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD . (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059398 8 1 DIRECT EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. WILCOX: 3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Papageorge. 4 A. Good morning . 5 Q . I introduced ray self earlier . I'm John 6 Wilcox with the law firm of Rudnick & Wolfe. I 7 represent Mr. Thomas Curtis, Mr. William Payne, Mr. 8 Lowell Payne, and Miss Flora Payne and Miami Battery & 9 Electric Company with respect to certain claims they 10 have against the defendants who are here with us 11 this morning. 12 This deposition is being taken for 13 purposes of trial testimony and is being recorded by 14 transcript as well as by a videotape. 15 Would you state your full name for the 16 record, please. 17 A. William B. Papageorge. 18 Q. Where do you reside, Mr. Papageorge? 19 A. 3 21 Pebble Va1 ley Drive , St. Louis , 20 Mis souri, 6 3141 . 21 Q. Do you maintain any residence in the 22 state of Florida? 23 A . No . 24 Q. Are you employed in the state of 25 FI o rida ? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059399 9 1 A . No * 2 Q. I'm informed by your counsel that you 3 would be unavailable to testify in the state of 4 Florida in the. trial of this matter; is that 5 correct, sir? 6 A. Yes, sir. Q. Let me begin by asking where you are 8 presently employed. 9 A . I am self-employed. 10 Q . In what capacity? 11 A . Engineering consultant. 12 Q. How long have you been so employed? 13 A . Since beginning of 1987 . 1 4 Q. What sort of consulting work do you do? 15 A. Well, it's chemica1 engineering 16 bas.ica 1 ly I guess specializing in environmental 17 matters and more specifically with PCBs. 18 Q Prior to becoming self-employed, where 19 did you work? 20 A . Monsanto Company. 21 Q How long did you work with Monsanto ? 22 A . Thirty-five years 23 g What was your last position with 2 4 Monsanto? 25 A . Manager of occupationa1 health for CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059400 10 1 Monsanto Chemical Company, a n operating unit of 2 Monsanto Company. 3 Q . And prior to that, what was your job 4 with Monsanto? 5 A. Director environmental operations for 6 the Monsanto Industrial Chemica1s Company, an operating unit of Monsanto Company. 8 Q. Let me offer you a document which I 9 believe is your curriculum vitae, your -- your 1 0 background, and ask if you can identify that , sir 11 A . Yes, this is a copy of my curriculum 12 vitae. 13 MR. WILCOX: May we have this 1 4 marked, please, Miss Reporter? 15 (Said instrument was ma rked for 16 identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 1, 17 6-12-90, JMF.) 18 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) You obtained your 19 education at Washington Univer sity; is that correct? 20 A. That is correct. 21 Q. Is that in Missouri? 2 2 A. In St. Louis , Missouri , yes. 23 Q. And you obtained a -- looks like a 2 4 bachelor of science in chemical engineering, 25 correct? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059401 11 1 A . Yes. 2 Q And when was that? 3 A s 1943 . 4 Q And then thereafter a master of science 5 in chemica1 engineering? 6 A . Yes, sir. Q Also from Washington? 8 A . Yes 9 Q . In what year? 10 A . 1947 . 11 Q From 1947 to 1951 you were emp1oyed by 1 2 Phillips Petroleum, correct? 13 A . That is correct. 14 Q And thereafter joined Monsanto? 15 A . Yes . 16 Q . Did you serve continuously with Monsanto ]_ 7 then until you left them in 1986? 18 A . Yes. 19 Q Did you retire in 1986? 20 A . Yes. 21 Q. In your job as director of environmental 2 2 operations, what sort of work did you do? 2 3 A . I was responsible for the emissions from 2 4 plant operations of those plants assigned to a given 2 5 operating unit of Monsanto. Those emissions include CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059402 12 1 their wastewaters, air emissions, as well as 2 disposal of solid wastes. I was also responsible 3 for the workplace health, exposure of the employees 4 to the chemicals and -- and the physical hazards 5 that might exist at the plants. 6 I was also responsible for the proper communications of information re 1 ating to our 8 products safety,, the labeling , the proper mode of 9 transportation, the containers used, and the related 10 bulletins and brochures that are associated with the 11 product. 12 Q. And did that job involve a chemica1 13 known as PCB? 1 4 A. I can't answer that quicklybecause I 1 5 was director of environmental operations for several 16 years during which I was assigned to different 17 operating units and it's only during one of the 1 8 periods that PCBs was part of my responsibility, not 19 throughout the entire period, 2 0 Q. What period was it that you were 21 involved with that chemical? 22 A. As best I recall , it was about 19 8 3 as a 2 3 director of environmental operations. 24 Q. Looking a t your curriculum vitae, from 2 5 1970 to 1973 it shows you were manager of I CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059403 13 1 environmental control; is that correct? 2 A . That is correct. 3 Q. Were you involved with PCBs during that 4 period of time? 5 A . Yes. 6 Q. What was the scope of your responsibilities regarding PCBs during that period? 8 A. During the 1970-1973 period? 9 Q . Yes, sir. 1 0 A. I was the coordinator of all information 11 relating to PCBs and the environment, the 1 2 re 1 ation ship between the two, within Monsanto and, 13 as appropriate, outside of Monsanto with customers, 14 regulatory agencies, private laboratories, 15 universities, legislative bodies, the media, new s 16 media. 17 Q. And PCBs is a -- is a name -- is an 18 abbreviation for a chemica1, correct? 1 9 A. It's -- I would suggest the use of the 20 word acronym. 21 Q. Okay. Apt 1y said. And what does that 2 2 ac ronym stand for? 2 3 A. Polychlorinated bipheny1s . 2 4 Q. Was that a chemica1 or -- or a product 2 5 manufactured by Monsanto? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059404 14 1 A . They were manufactured by Monsanto, 2 yes. 3 Q . Were there any other U.S. manufacturers 4 of PCBs? 5 A. Not to my knowledge. 6 Q . In terms of the electrica1 industry, what were the applications of PCBs to the production 8 of electrical equipment? 9 A. They were used in -- in some 10 transformers, in some capacitors, and some switching 11 equipment. 1 2 Q . Okay. The issue we are discussing here 13 this mo r ning will be transformers. I'm not 14 inquiring about capacitors or switching gears. 1 5 So focusing on -- on transformers, can 16 you describe for the jury what function the PCBs had 17 in the transformer. 1 8 A. The PCBs were one of severa1 ingredients 19 in a fluid mixture which was present in the 2 0 transformer. Its function was to serve as a cooling 21 medium to dissipate the heat generated while the 2 2 transformer is in service. 2 3 Q . In simplistic terms, what does a 2 4 transformer do ? 2 5 A. It can take voltage of a high level and CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD (314 ) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059405 15 1 reduce it to a 1 ower level or it can do the reverse, Q . From a low 1 eve 1 to a high 1 eve1? 3 A. Low level to a high level. 4 Q . And in the course of doing that it 5 generates heat; is that correct? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q. In what sort of application of a 8 transformer would you normally expect to find PCBs 9 used as a cooling medium? 10 A. Normally it's in units that are located 11 in areas which are heavily populated or in areas 1 2 where high-cost facilities are located where a -- a 13 fire wou1d be extremely costly. 1 4 Q . Does the PCB serve as a fire retardant 1 5 in that circumstance? 16 A. It serves as a fire retardant in the liquid in which it's blended, yes. 18 Q. Now mineral oil is also used as a heat 19 dissipating fluid in some transformers, correct ? 2 0 A. That is correct. 21 Q. Why is there a difference in the 2 2 applications of the cooling medium, transformer - 23 the -- in the transformers; that is, between say 2 4 PCBs and mineral oil? 25 A. Well, there are two differences that CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059406 16 1 come to mind. One is a n economic difference. And the other is that the mineral oil is f1ammab1e and 3 sub j ect to secondary fires if the unit let's say 4 explodes whereas the PCB-containing liquid,, being 5 fire resistant, is not a fluid that will support a 6 secondary fire. It will snuff itself out. Q. On applications where fire retardant was 8 not as great a concern one might expect to find a 9 mineral oil transformer then, correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And in terms of economics, I take it 1 2 that one -- that either PCBs or minera1 oil is less 13 expensive than the other? 1 4 A. That is correct. 15 Q And which is that? 16 A. Minera1 oil is less expensive, or was 17 less expensive . 18 Q. In terms of -- of the numbers of units 19 in service in the utilities during this time f rame 20 say in the early '70s, which would be the more 21 prevalent transformer in service, the PCB or mineral 2 2 oil? 2 3 MR. BAKER: Objection; lack of z foundation. 25 A. Mineral oil. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059407 17 1 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Are you familiar with 2 the term askarel? 3 A . Yes, sir. 4 Q And what -- what does that term mean 5 general 1y ? 6 A . It's the generic term used by the 7 industry to describe fluids used in electrical 8 equipment that are fire resistant. 9 Q . How about the term Py r a no1 , what - - what 10 does that mean? 11 A. Pyranol is a trademark which belongs to 12 the General Electric Company to identify fluids used 13 in electrical equipment that are fire retardant. 14 Q. What is -- Or correction, does Pyranol 15 contain PCBs? 16 A . Yes. 1 7 Q What does the term Inerteen refer to? 18 A . Inerteen is a Westinghouse trademark to 19 identify fire-resistant fluids used in electrical 2 0 equipment. 21 Q. Does Inerteen contain PCBs as well? 2 2 A . Yes . 23 24 Q. Are there risks -- Well, strike that . T X 11 `1 A ^ fl X 17 / U * Tv v\ WllCli t t ^v in ^ uu --. ^ /vj vn a o a U 111 C U t <-v t -i v* juui --i J KJ T.l /Ji ,Oi g VV ^ 1 c. 2 5 any risks in the use of PCBs identified? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY , LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059408 18 1 MR. DAVIDSON: What kind of risk 2 are you -- are you referring to? 3 Q. / 4 down . (BY MR. WILCOX) Well, let's break it 5 MR. DAVIDSON: Risks in use? 6 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Risks in use to personnel safety or to the environment. 8 A. In 19 7 0 the risks to huma n s were 9 identified as overexposure to the fumes and also 1 0 overexposure to skin contact, to people, the 11 workers. In 1970 there was an evolving situation 1 2 that related RGBs to presence in the environment. 13 Q. Did you ever have occasion to observe 1 4 any situations where a worker who came in contact 15 with PCBs on his skin encountered any difficulty? 16 MR. BAKER: Objection; re 1evance, 17 materiality. 18 A Yes. 1 9 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) What -- What sort of 2 0 circumstance was that, Mr. Papageorge? 2 1 MR. BAKER: Objection; relevance, 22 ma teriality. 2 3 A. As plant manager at Monsanto's plant in 2 4 Alabama, I saw the hands of one of my ~- of the 25 chief operator and they were red and they appeared CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059409 19 1 to be very -- had the -- the chapped hands 2 appearance. The medica1 doctor had informed me that 3 this individual had -- 4 MR. NETTLETON: Objection; 5 hearsay. 6 A. -- had informed me, that's his duty as plant doctor to tell me, that the employee had 8 suffered exposure to his hands from PCBs because he 9 did not use his protective gloves. I personally saw 1 0 the individual's hands and within the week that 11 condition had disappeared. 1 2 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Did Monsanto specify 1 3 protective equipment and clothing for its personnel? 1 4 MR. BAKER: Objection; materia1ity, 1 5 relevance. 1 6 A. Yes. 1 7 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Such things as gloves? 18 A. Yes. 1 9 MR. BAKER: Obj ection; relevance, 20 materia1ity. Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) I'm sorry, what was 22 your answer, sir? 2 3 A. Yes. 2 4 y. This particuiar individual wasn'L 2 5 wearing his gloves at the time he came in contact CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314 ) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059410 20 1 with the PCBs ? 2 A . That is correct. 3 MR. BAKER: Objection; re 1evance, 4 mate riality. 5 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Did Monsanto suggest to 6 its customers that their employees who might come in 7 contact with PCBs wear protective equipment and 8 c1othing? 9 MR. BAKER: Objection; relevance, 10 materiality. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Now what were the 13 environmental risks that had been identified in 1970 14 MR. BAKER: Objection. 15 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) -- or thereabouts? 16 MR . BAKER: Mischaracterizes the 17 testimony of the witness. 18 A . Can you help me with what -- what part 19 of 1970 because this was a fast-evolving -20 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Yes, sir. I believe 21 you -- 22 A . -- situation. 23 Q -- testified that in 19 7 0 there was a n 24 evolving, I!m not sure w h a t word you used, but 25 awareness of some environmental problems which were CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059411 21 1 developing or perceived to be deve1 oping from the PCB's placement in the environment. 3 MR. BURKE: Excuse me. Let me object to the form of the question. The witness's 5 testimony that either was an evolving situation of 6 the presence of PCB in the environment. The 7 question mischaracterizes and misrepresents his 8 prior testimony. 9 Answer if you can, sir. 1 0 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Can you describe for me 11 the evolving situation, Mr. Papageorge? 12 A . Yes. In -- By 19 7 0, early 1970 , it was 1 3 fairly well established that PCBs were being found 14 in the environment. 15 Q. And what do you mean when you describe 16 the term environment? 17 A. Such things a s the Great Lakes, pine 18 needles in Sweden, eagle feathers from a preserve - 1 9 eagle in a museum in Sweden, the presence in some 2 0 fish tissue again from this Swedish laboratory. 2 1 Those are the examples I can think of at the 22 moment. 2 3 Q . Is this a situation where the scientists 2 4 examined those particular kinds of -- of matter and 2 5 found PCBs in them? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059412 22 1 A . Yes. Q. And what was the significance of the 3 finding of the PCBs in those sorts of substances? 4 A. The significance to Monsanto is that the 5 presence in those samples was unexpected based on 6 Monsanto ' s thirty or forty years' experience with 7 these chemicals, particularly considering how 8 insoluble they were in water. And the uses that g Monsanto knew of just would not lead one to believe 1 0 that PCBs could be found in pine needles, as an 11 e x amp1e. 1 2 Q . Are you familiar with the -- an event 1 3 known as the Yushow event? 1 4 A . Yes. 15 Q. And what was that? 16 MR. BAKER: Objection; materiality. 1 7 re1evance. 18 A. The Yushow incident describes a 1 9 situation that occurred in Japan in which PCBs were 20 used to transfer heat to assist in the distillation 21 of oil extracted from rice bran. The system 22 developed an internal leak where the PCBs got into 2 3 the rice bran oil and that oil was later sold in the 2 4 marketplace and consumed by a community. The 25 individua1s who consumed that oil were observed to CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059413 23 1 have varying symptoms. In other words , they -- they 2 were not healthy because of this exposure. 3 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Did the Yushow incident 4 cause any greater or lesser attention to PCBs in the 5 environment? 6 MR. BAKER: Objection; relevance, 7 mat e ria 1ity. 8 A. Well, it certainly caused mo r e 9 attention, yes, it did. U h-huh. 1 0 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Approximately when was 11 the Yushow incident? 1 2 A . 19 6 8. 13 Q. At that point in time you were emp1oyed 14 by Monsanto in a plant in A1abama, I believe, 15 correct? 1 6 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And thereafter you were moved to your 18 po sition in St. Louis a s manager of environmental 1 9 control in about what, 1970 was it? 2 0 A . Yes. 2 1 Q. And what was the purpose, as you 22 understood it, of your move into this job a s manager 2 3 of environmental control? 9 /i A. Well, the -- the frequency at 'which 25 information regarding PCBs and presence in the CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059414 1 environment was increasing to the point where the 2 managers in Monsanto decided that it was a 3 significant enough of a situation that it required the ful1-time attention of some person , and it was 5 decided to appoint this new position to help really 6 within Monsanto to let the two business groups that 7 sold PCB s coordinate their efforts better so the 8 left hand knew what the right was doing; at the same 9 time to respond to questions, comments, from sources 10 outside of Monsanto, the university laboratories , 11 the gove rnment agencies , the media, and the 1 2 customers. 13 Q. Was it your job to be the -- the 14 resource for gathering of informat ion about PCBs for 15 Monsanto? 16 A . Yes. 17 Q , Did you have any function with regard to 18 transmittal of that information to people outside of 19 Monsanto? 2 0 A . Yes. 21 Q. And how did you go about the gathering 2 2 of the informat ion regarding PCBs ? 23 A . Several ways. One is to - - As a n O A 0X3.nipJ.cSf aSKcu O UT uiGCiICai u. i i 6 C G if' tn iOuy n .u 1 d 25 staff that when they peruse the various medical CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314} 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059415 25 1 document s , journals and the like, when articles 2 relating to PCBs would appear I would -- he would 3 make certain that his librarian sent me copies of 4 those articles and his staff would many times make 5 marginal notes or prepare a brief summary so that a 6 layman like me wou1d understand what the document 7 was referring to. 8 Another source would be out of our 9 research department, its library. Its 1ibrarian was 10 asked to peruse these documents, she was given a 11 list of where the artic1es might likely appear, and 1 2 at the same time I subscribed to several documents 13 that I would peruse personally. 1 4 I also had subscribed for a time to a - 15 a press c1ipping service, and each day they would 16 send me an envelope full of press c1ipping s from 1 7 newspapers, magazines, journals throughout the -- 18 throughout the world rea1ly. 19 And , of course, I would get some inputs 2 0 from the dif f erent people involved with studying 21 PCBs , the researchers and the universities and the 2 2 g ove r nme nt laboratories and the regulatory 2 3 agencies. 24 25 A A. fTAi ]A-)i V- \j7 wVU aWitM 1 rl oKJo r*X X M. \jt a'~SuV4 iJ.nfA.nWpJ-mAH af i nnA A?w Yes . CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059416 26 1 Q. Did Monsanto conduct any studies of its 2 own regarding PCBs in the environment? 3 A . Yes. I don't know that we have the same 4 definition of regarding PCBs in the environment. 5 Q. Well, what sort of studies did Monsanto 6 conduct ? Again, we're focused on this early '70s 7 time rame. 8 A. Yes. Well, of course it conducted a 9 very extensive program for deve1oping analytical 10 methodology that was reliable at very, very low 11 levels of concen -- concentrations. 12 Q . Now we're talking about testing for 13 PCBs, the presence? 14 A . Testing for them. 15 Q . The presence of PCBs ? 16 A . That is right. 17 Q Okay. 18 A. They established also another program 19 for determining the health effects on test animals, 20 rats , dogs, chickens. They sponsored these 21 studies. They also sponsored one fish study to see 2 2 how -- what effect PCBs had on freshwater fish. 2 3 They also conducted within Monsanto a study to 2 4 determine liow PCBs d 6n r s d s when exposed to 25 bacteria. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059417 27 1 Q . Did they study methods of disposal of 2 PCBs other than the -- the degradation by bacteria? 3 A , They studied what it took in the way of temperatures to conduct foolproof incineration so 5 there was definitely incinerated rather than 6 vaporiz ed. 7 Q . And did you obtain that information 8 about, you know, which resulted from the studies as 9 well a s the other documents you referred to? 10 A . Oh yes. 11 Q. And did you dis s eminate the information 1 2 outside the company ? 13 A. Certainly. 1 4 Q . And how did you go about doing that ? 15 A. There was various ways. One is by my 16 personally appearing before individuals or g roups 17 along with appropriate coworkers, for e x amp1e, a 18 medica1 department person, a n analytical chemistry 19 person, and we would share with that audience the 2 0 latest inf o rmation. 21 Another would be as -- a s requested, 22 either by mai1 or over the telephone, we would -- if 2 3 we could, we would just repeat over the telephone ^ 4 what we knew and understood. There are other times 2 5 when we would send summaries in the mail along with CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314 ) 727-650 3 WATER PCB-SD0000059418 28 1 copies of these articles that I was getting from 2 these various libraries that we felt were 3 appropriate to the person's request. 4 Q . And who were the people that you were 5 disseminating this to, to the people, the entities, 6 the groups? 7 A. Oh, they varied from the garden clubs of 8 Michigan to the attorney general -- state's attorney 9 in New York City to the EPA in Washington to the 10 laboratory in the EPA or the Federal Water Quality 11 Administration at that time up in Du1uth, Minnesota; 12 Corva11is , Oregon; Athens, Georgia; a laboratory in 13 Gu 1 f Breeze , Florida; there was a laboratory in 14 Co 1umbia, Missouri; the Department of Interior for 15 pesticide, fish pesticide laboratory; universities, 16 the University of Be rkeley. Dr. Risebrough, a t 1 7 Cornel 1 Dr. Peakall; the Audubon Society. 11 was a 18 varied audience that received these. 19 Q Did it -- Did that audience include 2 0 customers of Monsanto? 21 A I should have mentioned customers, yes. 22 definitely 23 Q And do those customers include 24 2 5 A Yes CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059419 29 1 Q. And -- And what was the purpose of the 2 dissemination of that -- of the information 3 regarding PCBs which you were obtaining ? 4 A . Since the issue was becoming more and 5 more popular with the regulatory agencies and the 6 press and the investigate rs, we felt it only -- the 7 only responsible thing to do was share with our 8 customers, for e x amp1e, everything we knew and share 9 with other interested people everything we knew. 10 There was no reason to -- not to disclose any. 11 Q . In trying to disseminate everything that 12 Mon santo knew about PCBs? 13 A, That is correct. 14 Q. During this time frame were there any 1 5 laws or regulat ions enacted which governed the 16 disposal of PCBs? 1 7 A, Can you give me -18 Q, Again, we're talking about 19 early '70s now. 2 0 A. Early '70s? 21 Q. Yeah . 22 A. Regarding the disposal of PCBs. In 2 3 early 1970 the only regulations that existed were A 41 the various wastewater regulations developed by each 25 state regarding the dispo s a 1 of indu s trial chemicals CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059420 30 1 in public streams. The only other regulations I 2 know that might apply would be the various 3 ordinances and local laws that apply to how local 4 1andfills were operated r located, and what materia1s 5 they should expect to dispose there. 6 Q . Were there any such states that had disposal regulations or statutes regarding the 8 disposal of industrial chemica1s during this 9 early '70s time f rame ? 10 A . I'm trying to reca11 a specific. There 11 were some states that made a distinction between 12 chemical landfills and sanitary 1andfills. I do not 13 recall just which they were. 1 4 Q. All right . Did any states have laws or 15 did they enact laws during this time f rame governing 16 the disposal of PCBs into the waterways ? 1 7 A. Not at that time, no. 18 Q . Subsequently did any state s adopt laws 1 9 or regulations governing the disposal of PCBs in the 2 0 waterways? 21 A . No . 2 2 Q. How about the federal government, did it 2 3 enact rules or regulations, EPA or -- or any of the Z"> "AJr o t h er agencies? 2 5 A. Yes. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059421 31 1 MR. BURKE: Can we get a time frame 2 as to when that might be at this point, please? 3 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Again, focusing on the 4 early '70s, were, there any regul at ion -- federal 5 regulations that governed PCBs in the environment 6 A. -- Not -7 Q . -- water or -- or any other substance, 8 food substance or any other kind of material? 9 MR. BURKE: Excuse me. Let me 10 object to that question. That's a compound 11 question. You started talking about disposal and 12 now we're talking about food chain. I mean, it's 13 apples and oranges and I think it's confusing to the 1 4 witness and they're tota1ly different, and so I 15 would obj ect to the form of the question. 16 Do you under stand it, Mr. Papageorge? 1 7 THE WITNESS: I think I do. 18 MR. BURKE: Answer it if you can, 19 sir. 20 THE WITNESS: I'll try. 2 1 A. But my previous response and you said 2 2 subsequent to that early 1970s was -- were there any 23 laws, and my answer was yes. This is approaching JL the '80s now; that's a decade later. 2 5 Going back to 1970, there were no CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059422 32 1 regulations relating to PCBs in air or water or 2 soil. The only regulatory action that was in place 3 were a set of guidelines established by the Food and 4 Drug Administration, guidelines as distinguished 5 from regulations. There -- There seems to be a 6 difference in the use of the word guideline. Other than that, there was nothing that 8 I'm aware of in place in the early '70s. 9 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Okay . With the 1 0 evolving know1 edge through the '70s about PCBs, did 11 there come a time when additional regulations or 12 guidelines were enacted? 1 3 A. Yes, there did come a time. 14 Q. Was there a time when the federal 15 government adopted a rule which in ef f ect banned the 16 use of PCBs ? 17 A . Yes. 18 Q. And do you recall approximately when 19 that was? 20 A. 1976 the Toxic Substances Control Act 21 was passed. 2 2 MR, DAVIDSON: I'd like to ask for 2 3 clarification. You indicated banned the use of 2 4 PCBs, I believe that was your question? 2 5 MR. WILCOX: Yes, it was. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059423 33 1 MR. DAVIDSON: I think that the - there were several stages and different things that 3 were sub j ect to the ban, and perhaps that might need 4 to be clarified. 5 MR. BURKE; I further object to the 6 question in that installed, intact electrical 7 equipment containing RGBs are still in use and 8 they're still authorized for use and still 9 encouraged to be used. 10 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) The -- Strike that. 11 One of the things that you said Monsanto 1 2 was looking into in the early '70s was methodology 13 for the detection of RGBs, correct, sir? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. How are RGBs detected or what's the 16 analysis , the methodology that's generally used? 17 A. Well, I don't pose to be a n expert 18 ana 1ytica1 chemist, but I do know that there are 1 9 sophisticated instruments that are able to respond 20 to the chemica1 that's introduced into the 21 instrument in a way that the instrument is able to 22 draw a -- a chart. These instruments are the GLCs 2 3 they ' re called, gas-liquid, chromatograms . O, *A* The peaks and valleys formed by the 25 reaction to the presence of chemicals are then CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059424 34 1 further confirmed with another instrument called a 2 mass specto -- spectrophotometer. It's the 3 combination of those instruments permits the analytical chemist to detect such chemicals as 5 PCBs . 6 Q . And during this time frame,, what was the the relative order of magnitude of the level of PCBs 8 which could be detected? 9 MR. BURKE: Which time f rame is 10 that now? 11 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Early '70s. 1 2 A. Early '70s? It -- Again, it started at 13 in the parts per million range, and as the 1 4 analytica1 chemists fine-tuned their methods they 1 5 were able to get eventua11y down to parts per 16 billion for sure and in some situations parts per 17 trillion. 18 Q . What was the sort of level that Monsanto 1 9 could achieve with its testing methodology and 20 equipment ? 21 A . Monsanto -22 MR. McINTOSH: When? 2 3 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) In the early 7 0s 2 4 Everything is focused on the early '70s. 25 A . Early '70s. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059425 35 1 MR. BAKER: Objection; mate ria 1ity 2 and relevance. 3 A. Monsanto could -- I hesitate because 4 this depends again on the laboratory. The 5 laboratory in St. Louis, which was in my viewpoint 6 the pioneer group, they became so sophisticated they could detect parts per trillion. The laboratories 8 at the producing pi ant, which do this on a -- a more 9 routine manner, were able to detect in the parts per 10 billion in a routine manner. It takes -- 11 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Monsanto - 1 2 A. -- It takes a special effort to get down 13 to part per trillion. That is not warranted at the 14 plant site as distinguished from the research 15 laboratory. 16 Q. Were you f amiliar with any laboratories 17 in any manufacturing plants of -- of Monsanto's 18 customer s that were able to detect RGBs in their 19 laboratory methodology? 20 A. When you ask me am I familiar with 21 laboratory in the plants I -2 2 Q. The manufacturing plants of the 2 3 customers. d* 4 A. I'm not -- I'm not personally 25 knowledgeable regarding which laboratories at the CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059426 36 1 customers had the capabi1 ities. All I know -- All I 2 know is that some of the larger c ompa nies with the 3 resources had the capability. I do not know where 4 thatcapability was located. 5 Q. And are you familiar with the relative 6 order of magnitude of the levels which could be 7 detected in their laboratories? 8 MR. BAKER: Objection; vague. 9 A. Parts per billion. 10 MR. NETTLETON: Object and move to 11 strike; lack of foundation. 12 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Let meoffer you a -- a 13 document, appears to be a letter dated March 3rd, 14 19 6 9 , on Monsanto 1 etterhead and see if you can 1 5 identify this, please, sir. 16 A. This is a copy of a 1ette r to customers 17 signed by Mr. Elmer Wheeler of Monsanto's medical 18 depa r tme n t. 19 Q . Are you familiar with that 1etter , sir? 2 0 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. What was the purpose of that 1etter ? 2 2 MR. BURKE : Excuse me. May we 2 3 examine the document -Z, 41 MR. WILCOX: Sure. 25 MR. BURKE: -- before the witness is CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059427 37 1 examined about it? 2 MR. WILCOX: For the record , that 3 letter was an exhibit to Mr. Papageorge's previous 4 deposition in the related case of U.S. versus 5 Pepper's Steel which depo sit ion was taken February 6 21st , 1990. MR . BAKER: Object to the reference 8 to that deposition and to that case a s being 9 r e1 ated. 1 0 MR. McINTOSH: I move to strike 11 counse1's testimony a s to what the letter is and 12 where it purports to have appea red otherwise. 13 MR. BURKE: Furthermore, none of 14 the defendants in this case were partie s to any 15 depo sition in any case taken in February 1990 and 16 were not in attendance. 17 Thank you. 18 MR. McINTOSH: May I see it? 19 I would object a s to the re 1evancy and 2 0 that it's hearsay and there's no predicate for it. 21 MR. BAKER: I also object to this 2 2 copy of the exhibit since it's been previously 23 marked at a deposition which is not in this case. 24 MR. McINTOSH: I would also object 25 on authenticity and best evidence. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD . (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059428 38 1 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Mr. Papageorge, for the 2 record, there is a notation at the upper left-hand 3 corner, some writing which I can't even make out, 4 that I represent to you is not part of the letter as 5 I received it originally. In addition, at the 6 right-hand corner there are some numbers which were 7 not on this document when I originally received it. 8 Can you recognize either of those 9 numbers at the right -hand corner or the notation at 1 0 the upper left-hand corner ? 11 A. I cannot . 12 Q. Okay . I represent to you that those 13 were added after they were received from production 14 by Monsanto. 15 MR . NETTLETON : Object ion; move to 16 strike -17 MR . McINTOSH: Move to strike. 18 MR . NETTLETON : -- the statement of 19 counsel. 20 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) The -- Let me go back 21 to the letter so I can ask you again if you -- I 22 believe you said you're familiar with the letter, 23 correct? 24 Pk mac xs correct- 25 Q. Was that a document that you saw in the CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. . (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059429 39 1 cour se of your employment with Monsanto? 2 A . Yes, sir. 3 Q. And what was the purpose of that 1etter 4 a s you understood it? 5 MR. BAKER: Ob j ection; foundation. 6 MR. McINTOSH: Objection; spec u1 a tio n. 8 A . This was Monsanto's way of communicating 9 to its c u s tome r s on record, customers of PCBs, of 10 the information known at that point in time, early '69, 11 regarding the detection of PCBs in the environment 12 by several laboratories and to inform the customers 13 that some of the products that they were purchasing 1 4 from Monsanto did contain the materia1 PCBs. 15 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Was this one of the 16 notice 1etters that you described in your ear 1ier 17 testimony disseminating information to the 18 customers? 19 MR . BURKE: Excuse me. Let me 20 object to the form of the question and his prior 21 testimony has nothing to do with this deposition 22 today, and the word notice has legal significance 2 3 that is irrelevant and immaterial to this case . 2 4 Answer if you can, sir. 25 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Let me just make sure I -- CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059430 40 1 you understand. Don't -- Prior testimony to today, 2 I have no reference to any other testimony any other 3 time. When I asked you earlier about how 4 inf ormation was disseminated you described a proces s 5 by which Monsanto distributed information to a wide 6 audience including its customers. My question is is this letter one of those vehicles for transmitting 8 informat ion about PCBs to Monsanto's customers? 9 A . Yes. 10 MR. WILCOX: Let me ask the 11 reporter to mark that as Plaintiffs' 2. 12 (Said instrument was marked for 13 identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2, 1 4 6-12-90, JMF.) 15 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Let me hand you another 16 document which appears to be on Monsanto letterhead 17 1etterhead dated February 18th, 1970, and ask if you 18 can recognize that 1 etter. 19 A. This is a copy of a letter mailed to 20 customers on record with Monsanto of PCB products 21 signed by Dona1d Olson, who at that time was 2 2 director of sales for PCB products. 2 3 Q. Are you familiar with that letter? 2 4i A Y6S f sir 25 Q . Is that -- CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059431 41 1 MR. McINTOSH: May we see it before 2 you question the witness further about it? 3 MR. BAKER? I have the same exhibit - objections to this exhibit as to the one that was 5 marked as Exhibit 2. 6 MR . BURKE: After it's marked, I'm 7 assuming it's going to be No. 3, I would object to 8 the exhibit 'cause it does not have any re 1evancy to 9 this case and, further, the attachment which was 10 inc1uded with the letter is missing. Therefore, the 11 document is incomplete and therefore misleading. 12 MR . BAKER: Also object on the 13 grounds that foundation is vague and misleading 1 4 since it makes no specific reference to any parties 15 in this case . 16 MR. McINTOSH: I would also object 17 as it is hearsay and hearsay within hearsay, the 18 authenticity, and the best evidence. 11 appear s to 19 be a copy of something or other. 20 MS. MONTES? I also object because 21 there is no list of customers so -- listed there, so 22 we cannot tell who received the letter actually or 23 to whom it was sent. 2 4 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Are you familiar with 25 that letter, Mr. Papageorge? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ( 314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059432 42 1 A . Yes, sir. Q . And what was the purpose of that letter? 3 MR. BAKER: Same objections. 4 A . The purpose of this particular version 5 of this letter was to inform the purchasers of 6 products from Monsanto containing PCBs that are used 7 in electrical equipment of the current status, 8 current at that -- as of -- as of the date of the 9 1etter, of the information known to Monsanto 1 0 regarding PCBs and, again, presence in the 11 environment. 1 2 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) And who were some of 13 those customer s that you're referring to, which 14 companie s ? 15 A. Well, it was Genera 1 Electric, 16 Westinghouse, Sprague Electric, Allis-Chalmers, 17 Corne11 Duba1ie r, Federal Pacific, Electric 18 Util ities. I'm sure there were severa1 more, I just 19 can't remember them all. 20 Q. Was the letter intended to go to all of 21 Monsanto's customers who were users of PCBs in the 2 2 electrical equipment business? 2 3 MR . BAKER: Objection? foundation, o /i best evidence. 25 A. They were intended to go to customers on CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059433 43 1 Monsanto's records which covered a three-year period back in time. 3 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Would Monsanto looked 4 at its records to determine who its customers had 5 been during that three-year period; is that right? 6 A . That is correct. Q. And was the address list then derived 8 from that list of customers ? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And was the letter then , as far as you 11 know, sent to that list? 12 A. Yes. 1 3 MR. BAKER: Objection; speculation. 14 foundation. 15 MR. WILCOX: Let me have that 16 marked a s Plaintiffs' 3, please. 17 (Said instrument was marked for 18 identification a s Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 3, 19 6-12-90, JMF.) 20 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Let me offer you 21 another document, this one again appearing to be on 22 Monsanto letterhead dated September 15th, 1970, and 23 I would ask you if you recognize that document. 2 4 A. I do recognize it. 25 Q. And what is that document? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059434 1 A . This is -MR. MeINTOSH: May we see it before 3 the witness is questioned about it? 4 MR. DAVIDSON: Go off the record. 5 (Discussion was held off the record.) 6 (Said instruments were marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibits No. 4 through 8 and including No. 16, 6-12-90 , JMF. ) 9 (Deposition stood in temporary recess.) 10 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Mr. Papageorge , are you 11 familiar with the document that's been marked 12 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 4? 13 A. Yes. This is a document I previously 1 4 reviewed and told you I was familiar with it. 15 Q. And what was the purpose of that 1etter ? 1 6 MR. BAKER: Objection; materiality, 17 relevance , 18 A. This is to inform our -- Monsanto's 19 customers of fluids, products that contain PCBs, of 20 the latest information Monsanto had regarding FDA 21 and a guide 1ine on PCBs. 22 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Again, was that sent to 23 customers such as the transformer manufacturers? 2 4 MR. BAKER: Objection; vague. 2 5 foundation, best evidence. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059435 45 1 MR. McINTOSH: Leading. 2 A Yes . 3 MR. MeINTOSH: I would object to 4 Exhibit 4 for the following reasons: It's hearsay, 5 object to the authenticity, it's not the best 6 evidence, it's only a copy, and i t doesn ' t carry 7 indication as to which customers it was sent. 8 MR. BAKER: I'm going to pose at 9 this time an objection to all the exhibits that have 10 been marked because they show markings from 11 depositions unrelated to this case and other 12 marking s that are obviously not original to the 13 documents. 1 4 Well, it cover s all the ones that have 15 been marked, which as I understand it is 1 through 16 16 . 17 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Mr . Papageorge , let me a s k 18 correction, let me hand you a document that's been 19 marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 6 for identification and 2 0 ask you if you recognize that document . 2 1 A . I do. 2 2 Q . And what is that document, sir? 2 3 MR. BAKER: Obj ection; re 1evance, 2 4 materiality. 25 A. This is a copy of a proposed bu11etin to CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD . (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059436 1 be issued by Monsanto's marketing department, and 2 the document describes some recommendations 3 regarding the control of PCBs such that they do not 4 enter the environment. 5 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Was that bulletin 6 adopted by Man -- Mon santo? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q. And was it distributed? 9 A. Yes. 1 0 Q. To which entities or -- entity or 11 entities was it distributed? 12 A. This was dist ributed, again, to 13 customers of the PCBs on record with Monsanto as of 1 4 the date of this bulletin and three year s prior. 15 Q. And what was the purpose of the 1 6 bul1etin? 17 MR. BAKER: Objection; relevance, 18 materiality , foundation. 19 A. The intent of the bulletin was to share 2 0 with customers some ideas that Monsanto's 21 representatives had regarding methods that might be 22 useful and app1ic ab1e to -- at the customer sites 23 for the control of PCBs to prevent loss to the 2 4 environment . 2 5 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) All right, sir. And CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY , LTD . (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059437 1 for the record, what is the date of this bulletin? 2 A. It's - 3 MR. BAKER: Objection to the 4 characterization of the exhibit as a bulletin. The 5 witness testified that it was a proposed bulletin. 6 A . July 19 71 is the date of this copy. Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Okay. Do you know when 8 it was adopted and distributed? 9 A. Within a month. 10 Q. Of July 1971? 11 A. Yes. August '71. 1 2 Q. Let me hand you a document that's been 13 marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 7 14 and ask if you can identify that particular one. 15 A . This is a copy of a bulletin prepared 16 and distributed by Monsanto Company relating to 17 Transformer Askare1 Inspection and Maintenance 18 Guide. 19 Q. Was that bulletin adopted by Monsanto 20 and distributed to its customers? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Which customers was it distributed to? 23 A. This was distributed to customer s of 2 4 fluids sold by Monsanto that contained PCBs and were 25 designed for use in transformers. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059438 48 1 Q. Was the customer list or the 2 distribution list the same three-year type of 3 arrangement that you described earlier? 4 A . Yes, sir. 5 Q. And what was the purpose of that 6 document? 7 MR. BAKER: Obj ection; relevance, 8 mate ria1ity, foundation, compound question. 9 MR. NETTLETON: Also object to the 10 re 1evancy on the basis of lack of time f rame. 11 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) What's the date of that 1 2 document, Mr. Papageorge? 1 3 A. This document is 1974 as best I recall. 14 Q. Okay. And what was the purpose of it? 15 A. The purpose was to update previous 16 document s that referred to inspection and 17 maintenance guides of fluids used in transformers, 18 and it included references to practices and 19 guide 1ines developed by the American National 2 0 Standards Institute regarding the proper use and 21 contro1 of PCB liquids. 22 Q . Okay. And what' s the American National 2 3 Standards Institute? 24 A. That's an industry organization that 2 5 addresses the development of standards deve1 oped by CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059439 49 1 industry. 2 Q . All right. And did there come a time in 3 your emp1oy with Monsanto that you worked with the American National Standards Institute? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q . And what was the circumstances under 7 which you worked with the Institute? 8 A . I was chairman of a committee which 9 prepared a guideline for the use, control, and 10 eventua1 disposal of PCBs used in electrical 11 equipment. 1 2 Q . And what was your role, if any, in the 13 formation of such committee? 14 A. I don't -- I didn't play any role in the 15 formation of the committee. l\ 16 Q . You did serve as its chairman you said? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Were you the firstchairman? 1 9 A . Yes, sir. 2 0 Q. How long did youserve a s chairman ? 21 A. From 1971 till early 1976. 22 Q. Was the committee in existence before 23 you took the position of chairman? 2 4 A . No . 25 Q. Did it continue in existence after you CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD . ( 314 ) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059440 50 1 relinquished your position as chairman? A. Yes, sir. 3 Q . Can you tell me, as best you reca11 , the 4 membership compo sitio n of that committee ? 5 MR. BAKER : Ob j ec tion; no time 6 frame, best evidence . 7 A. I certainly don't reca11 all the 8 individuals by name, but it consisted of 9 representatives of various industrial groups that 10 represented electrical equipment manufacturers, it 11 consisted of representatives from transformer 12 service company, it consisted of representatives of 13 the utilities and also included representatives of 14 government entities , both the using agencies and 15 depa rtment s as well as the regulatory agencies and 16 departments . 17 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Did it inc1ude the 18 representatives from GE? 19 A . Yes. 20 Q. Westinghouse? 21 i 22 A . Yes. Q. A11is-Cha1mers? 23 A. Yes. 2 4 Q. Kuhiman? 25 A. I don't recall a representative from CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059441 51 1 KuhIman. 2 Q Moloney or Central Mo 1oney as it may 3 have been known at the time ? 4 MR. BAKER: Objection; lack of time 5 f r ame 6 A . Yes. 7 Q (BY MR. WILCOX) RTE? 8 A I don't recall an RTE representative. 9 Q McGraw? 10 A . I'm not clear on McGraw. It seems to me 11 they were represented. I do not remember the 12 individua 1 13 Q. Bear with me just a minute; I'll get my 14 exhibits back in order. 15 Let me offer you next a document that's 16 been marked for identification as Plaintiffs' 17 Exhibit 9 and ask if you can recognize that 18 document, 19 A. I do recognize it, 20 Q. What is that document, sir? 21 A. This is a copy of a letter I wrote dated 22 September 1st, 1970, addressed to Mr. W. C. 23 Reinhardt of the Mo 1oney Electric Company. 24 Q. And what was t h e pu Is S 0 O f t h cl t J_ 0 11 e r ? 25 A. This was in response to a suggestion CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY , LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059442 52 1 that I prepare a brief statement describing the 2 current status of PCBs and the environment for use 3 by the National Electrical Manufacturers Association in their dealings with the American National 5 Standards Institute. 6 Q . And what was the basic relationship between the National Electrical Manufacturers 8 Association and the American National Standards 9 Institut e ? 10 A. The relationship was one of the N EMA 11 representatives requesting ANSI to sponsor a 12 committee to establish guidelines for the proper 13 handling and use and disposal of PCBs. 14 Q. And was that committee you referred to 15 earlier of which you assumed the chairmanship? 16 A. That is the committee that was 17 eventua11y formed, yes. 18 Q. Now, there is a second page to the 19 letter. Is that the statement which you composed 2 0 regarding the current situation with PCBs ? 21 A . It is* 22 Q. Now let me offer you a document that ' s 23 been marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 10 for 2 4 identification and ask if you can identify that 2 5 document. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059443 1 MR. NETTLETON: For the record, I would object to this exhibit on the grounds of 3 mu1tip1e hearsay involvements. 4 MR. WILCOX: Is your objection to 5 No. 10? 6 MR. NETTLETON: No. 10. A . I recognize this document. 8 Q . <BY MR. WILCOX) And what is that 9 document, Mr. Papageorge? 10 A. This is a copy of a prepared text that I 11 presented at the first meeting, the meeting at which 12 the ANSI commi ttee C10 7 was formed. 13 Q. You say text. Was this a speech which 14 you gave? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you actua1ly deliver those rema rks 17 to the committee membership? 18 A. Well, to the audience that was present. 19 Some of them became committee members, some were 20 observers. 21 Q. Okay. And what was the purpose of that 2 2 that call it a speech or talk or remarks or whatever 23 you prefer to describe it? JL 4 MR. BAKER: Objection; relevance, 25 materiality CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059444 54 1 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) How would I best 2 describe it, as remarks ? 3 A. Status report. 4 Q. Okay. What was the purpose of that 5 report? 6 MR. BAKER: Same objection. 7 A. To -- To share with the audience the 8 latest information I had regarding PCBs and the 9 environment . 10 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) And do your remarks 11 summarize your thoughts on that subject? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q . Let me next offer you a document that's 1 4 been marked a s Plaintiffs' Exhibit 12, and I 15 recognize that I skipped 11 here, and ask if you can 16 identify this document, sir. 17 MR. McINTOSH: John, to speed 18 things up may the defendants have continuing 19 objections on the grounds of re 1evancy, 20 authenticity , hearsay, lack of a predicate, 21 foundation? 22 MR. WILCOX: Certainly. 2 3 MR . Me INTOSII : And that way we can 2 4 just say tne u s u ai objections instead of cataloging 2 5 them. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314 ) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059445 55 1 MR. WILCOX: I have no problem with 2 that, David. 3 MR. McINTOSHi I have the usual 4 objections to hearsay and everything which has 5 preceded to it. 6 MR. WILCOX: And I assume yours was 7 to be taken a s a standard objection, the one you 8 made earlier with regard to all the exhibits? 9 MR. NETTLETON: That was David. 10 MR. BAKER: Well, the one I 11 specifically announced objection to all of them, 1 2 that is correct. 13 I also, Mr. Wilcox, be 1ieve you're 1 4 required to state your basis in oppo sition to the 15 objection now and not come up with some a rgument 16 later, so I think you're precluded from making any 17 a r gume nt s in oppo sitio n to the objections. 18 MR. McINTOSH: Additiona1ly, if 19 none of the objections have appeared on your 2 0 pretrial catalog I would move that they be stricken 2 1 for that reason or not admitted. 22 MR. NETTLETON: You mean the 23 documents? 24 T ? 25 sorry CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ( 314 ) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059446 56 1 A You asked me to describe this document and say -- 3 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Well, I asked if you 4 recognize it first of all. 5 A. I recognized several parts of it. 6 Q. And what is it, sir? A. I'm sorry? 8 Q. What is it? 9 A. What is it? This is a col lection of 10 minutes of meetings of the ANSI group, there's a 11 copy of the proposed Massachusetts bill to be voted 12 on by the legislature, there is a speech by a 13 representative of the French PCB manufacturers. I'm 1 4 sure I didn't catch them all. There's some -- There 15 are letters here on NEMA letterhead relating to the. 16 formation of a committee to establish guidelines for 17 the proper use of PCBs, so it's it's a mixture in 18 this particular exhibit. 19 Q. Were minutes kept of the meetings of the 2 0 committee? 21 A. Which committee? - 22 Q. The committee of which you were 23 chairman. 2 4 Yes 25 Q Okay. And are these such minutes, these CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059447 1 document s? 2 MR. NETTLETON: Object. He's 3 already testified that it's a mixture of different 4 documents. 5 A. I see here only one example of minutes 6 of that particular committee. 7 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Would the other items 8 that are attached to that have been distributed with 9 the minutes? When I received those, when they were 10 produced, they were affixed together and they are -11 they bear Bates numbers, sequential number s at the 12 bottom that show they were attached. 13 MR . NETTLETON: Move to strike 14 counsel's statements about production of documents. 15 MR. BAKER: Ob j ect to the reference 16 to the Bates number s. 17 A. I would like to correct something. The 18 minutes I referred to referred to a NEMA committee 19 that existed in early '71 as distinguished from the 20 subsequent committee under ANSI sponsorship which 21 was formally organized in September of '71. 22 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Okay. 23 A. The information in this packet appear s 24 to be related to the NEMA committee and its 25 incept ion and its first meeting. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314 ) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059448 1 Q . Okay. May I have that one ? A . Sure. 3 Q . Now would this -- the events that are 4 described in Exhibit 12, the minutes apparent 1y, 5 have been of a committee that existed prior to your 6 becoming c hairman of the later commi11 e e you 7 discussed? 8 A. That iscorrect. 9 Q . All right. Can we describe the 10 committee that you chaired as -- a s the AN SI 11 committee ? Can we agree on that so we distinguish 12 between the two ? 13 A. That's the -- thecommon expression used 1 4 to describe it, yes. 15 Q. And I'm sorry , when was that committee 16 formed? You said September ? 17 A. September '71. 18 Q. Okay. Let me offeryou a document 19 that's marked for identification as Plaintiffs' 2 0 Exhibit 13 and ask if you can identify that. 21 recognizing the first page is -- is somewhat 22 obliterated by the copy process. 23 A. This is a copy of the minutes of a n ANSI Zi'~'i fS/3r committee meeting held in February 1972. Attached 2 5 to it are copies of letters that I had mailed to the CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059449 59 1 chairmen of the two subcommittees in response to 2 their request for information. 3 Q , Do the attached letters belong in the 4 ordinary course of -- of things with the minutes 5 themselves? Are they attachments to the minutes or 6 are they just accidentally stapled together here 7 today ? 8 MR. BURKE: Obj ect to the form of 9 the question. There's no showing this witness has 10 any experience with how these documents were 11 prepared and put together or not prepared and put 12 together. 13 Answer if you can, Mr. Papageorge. 1 4 A. I do not reca11 that my letters were a 1 5 part of -- of the minutes when initially issued. 16 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Okay. Let me separate 17 those and let me see if we can get these proper 1y 18 done . 19 MR . BAKER: I'm going to object to 2 0 the modification of the exhibit after it's been 21 testified to by the witness. It's going to show on 22 the record differently than what he testified to. 23 o /a -i MR. WILCOX: I think we'll correct -I-- 1-- ^ iL- 11 cl L- L. ^ ilCi C -1 1 ~a 4-- J U a l. W". w w. W 4" "* 1 1 tT illume u i-a i 1 J. ^ V - 7 "a 4-- vv _L c. j. i a. 1 4" !' 1 .j. .l c c, j_ anD 25 Mr. Baker CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059450 60 1 Let me ask the reporter if you would 2 MR. BAKER: I think the record 3 should ref 1ect the exhibit, a copy of the exhibit, as the way he testified to it. If you want to have 5 something else that he can identify, you should have 6 something else. MR. WILCOX: Well, I don't have any 8 problem with that. We can copy what he's testified 9 to as Exhibit 13 but then I want to break it up and 10 get it in its proper order and examine him on those 11 separate documents. Now we either need to stop and 1 2 make that copy or we just agree that these papers 13 that I have here are what was 13 until I removed the 1 4 staple. 15 MR. BAKER: I object to proceeding 16 in this way. 17 MR. WILCOX: For what reason? 18 MR. BAKER: I don't think it's the 19 way to make a proper record for a trial deposition. 20 MR. McINTOSH: Also you've altered 21 that document -- that exhibit after it had been 22 marked by the court reporter. 23 1 MR. WILCOX: All I've done is 2 4 remove the staple, Mr. McIntosh. 25 MR. McINTOSH: Well, that's an CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY , LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059451 61 1 alteration . 2 MR. WILCOX: Okay. I will ask then 3 that we suspend momentarily and have the reporter 4 copy what is Exhibit 13 as Mr. Papageorge just 5 testified and ask if I may have another copy so that 6 I can use the separate documents themselves. Can 7 you do that for us, please? 8 MR. BAKER: I object to suspending 9 the deposition. We started late because of your 1 0 late arrival. I'd like to proceed. 11 MR . NETTLETON: Mr. Wilcox, could I 1 2 suggest that you just keep the exhibit together and 13 ask him to identify the separate pages. He's 14 already identified them as separate documents and 15 you can count the number of pages back. It might 16 alleviate eve ryone's concern. 17 MR. WILCOX: Well, that might be a 18 convenient arrangement. I don't have any problem 19 with that . Do you want to paper clip that? 20 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) All right . Let's try 21 and do that, Mr. Papageorge, in order to keep thing s 22 moving . 2 3 The lower right-hand corner of each of on Z '.! these documents bear a number which x s sequential 25 from 148064 through 148072, and let me ask, if you CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059452 62 1 would, to refer to those numbers and if you could identify for me that portion which is the minutes of 3 the ANSI committee. 4 A. The minutes are identified in the lower 5 right-hand corner by the numbers 148065 through 6 148068. Q . Okay . Now let me ask you to refer to 8 the first page, and there seems to be a list of 9 people who were present at -- at that meeting, 10 correct? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q . Now, is that a list of the membership of 13 the committee? 14 A. No, this is a list of the member s that 15 were present. There were -- It's possible there are 16 member s who could not make this meeting. For 17 examp1e, I'm one. I -- I didn't make this meeting. 18 Q* Okay. 19 A. And it's also possible for observers or 20 guests to be present. It's a n open meeting. 21 Q . Now those minute s then were -- were 2 2 prepa red by Mr. Salazar, correct? 23 A. Yes. 2 4 O. But you didn't personally participate in 2 5 that meeting itself? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ( 314 ) 727-6 5 03 ......................... .................WATER PCB-SD0000059453 63 1 A. That is correct. 2 Q. Okay . What is the -- Then the next 3 document following 148068? 4 A. The next document is a copy of a letter 5 I sent to Mr. Raab and Dr. Posef sky, the two 6 chairmen of the subcommittees, and this is dated 7 January 19, 1972. 8 Q . And that is a single-page document? 9 A. The number of this document is 148069, 10 single page. 11 Q. All right. And what was the purpose of 1 2 that letter? 13 A . This was to convey to the two chairmen 1 4 the sensitivities regarding the analytical methods 15 used by Monsanto, FDA, and USDA in determining the 16 presence of PCBs in sample mat e ria1. 1 7 Q . And did the letter accurately describe 18 those sensitivities? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And what were those sensitivities? 21 A. Well, the Monsantosensitivity was two 22 parts per billion. The FDA method was .5 parts per 2 3 million. The USDA was 1.0 parts per million. O fAt s~\ Al___________ -A____3 ~ J3------------------------4 1, ~ JS 4- U ~ J- ^ s f*\ 11 t_i y U. UCSUI iDCU tiiC L-Wk.; 25 recipients, Mr. Raab and Mr.-- I'm sorry, what was CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059454 1 it? 2 A . (Indicating) . 3 Q. Posefsky? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. All right. As chairmen. What were they 6 chairmen of? 7 A. Mr. Raab was chairman of the 8 subcommittee that addressed use of PCBs in 9 transformers . Dr. Posef sky was chairman of the 10 subcommittee that addressed use of PCBs in 11 capacitor s. 1 2 Q. And do you know by whom or which company 13 Mr. Raab was emp1oyed ? 14 A. Yes, I do . 15 Q. And what company was that? 16 A. General Electric Company. 17 Q. Did you ever visit with Mr. Raab? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. At his place of employment ? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And where was that ? 22 A. Pittsfield, Massachusetts. 2 3 Q. And what sort of facility was -- was 2 4 there at Pittsfield? 25 A . I don't know how to answer your question CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER_PCB-SD0000059455 65 1 other than it was a site at which transformers which 2 contained PCB-type fluids were manufactured. 3 Q. A manufacturing plant? 4 A . Yes. 5 Q . Okay. Did you ever discuss with Mr. 6 Raab the sub j ect of -- at any time with Mr. Raab the 1 subject of PCBs mixing in mineral oil? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And can you generally describe the 10 subject that was discussed? 11 MR. BAKER: Objection; hearsay . 12 MR . BURKE: Let me object to the 13 form of the question, and could I ask, Mr. 1 4 Papageorge, if you can that you attach a time frame 15 to your answer so we'll know rather than having to 16 guess? 17 A . I discussed with Mr. Raab individually 1 8 and I was also present when Mr. Raab as c hairma n of 1 9 this transformer subcommittee describing the 20 possibilities for inadvertently mixing mineral oil 21 fluids and PCB-type fluids. The discussion really 22 centered about an incident that happened decades 23 before and from that experience the manufacturing 24 processes were modified to avoid a reoccurrence, and 25 the understanding I had was that Mr, Raab was very CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ( 314 ) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059456 66 1 comfortable with the current situation in 1970, early 1970s, that the potential for such a mishap 3 happening at the manufacturing plant was very 4 remote. 5 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) When did you first 6 become aware of the potentia1 or the possibility for the mixing of mineral oil and PCBs? 8 A . Early 1970 . 9 Q . Did you ever discuss that subject with 10 any representative from Westinghouse? 11 A. I don't recall a specific incident in 12 which a discussion of - - on that subject was held 13 with a Westinghouse person. I -- I don't reca 11 any 14 such discussion. 15 Q. Were there discussions where you were 16 present in the ANSI committee regarding the 17 potential or possibility of the mixing of mineral 18 oil and PCBs ? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And can you describe for me about what 21 time frame we're talking about ? 2 2 A. We're talking very early in the -- in 2 3 the existence of that committee a s -- as an ANSI committee and Is rn the chairman, if not the first 25 meeting the second. Very early in its working CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059457 67 1 period. 2 Mr. Raab as chairman of that committee 3 was summarizing the past history of transformers, 4 their uses, the introduction of the PCB type of 5 transformers, and he did mention as a sort of a 6 reminder to the group that mixtures did occur and there was con -- the group struck me as agreeing 8 that , yeah, they occurred, but the manufacturing 9 processes were all modified to make certain that 10 this did not happen again and the group decided that 11 the issue of mixing was under good contro1 and to 12 move on then to PCBs in the environment. 1 3 MR. BAKER: Objection; move to 1 4 strike as lacking foundation, calling for hearsay 15 and speculation, and lacking materia1ity and 16 relevance. 17 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) What was the -- a s you 18 understood it would be the result of the mixing of 19 mineral oil into an askarel transformer, one that 2 0 was not intended to have minera1 oil as its cooling 21 fluid? 22 A. The concern there was the 2 3 MR. NETTLETON: Object to 2 4 foundation . 25 A. The concern there was the presence of CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059458 68 1 mineral oil affecting the fire resistance of the PCB-type fluid. 3 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) In other words, if 4 mineral oil were introduced into what was otherwise 5 a fire-retardant chemical, it might reduce its 6 fire-retardant capabilities? A . That was the concern,, yes. 8 Q . Did the committee discuss or did you 9 come to learn of -- of the existence of a 10 possibility or potential of a problem where the 11 minera1 oil was in the -- introduced into askarel, 12 into the PCBs, as opposed to the other way around? 13 MR. McINTOSH: Object; asked and 1 4 answered. 15 A . I'm sorry, I -- would you repeat that? 16 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) I asked generally before about the potential for mixing of PCBs in 18 oil, and what I was trying to do was to look at 19 the - - the different kinds of transformers. You 20 described earlier one that was a -- a PCB or askarel 21 transformer that was intended for the use where fire 2 2 retardant was a primary concern , and I'm asking now 23 if there were occasions where you came to learn or A 4 you h e a r a discussions about the mixing of oil in 25 that kind of transformer, the askare1 transformer . CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059459 69 1 A . Well, that's what I thought we talked 2 about. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A . The introduction of oil in a PCB-type 5 fluid affects its abi1ity to resist fire. 6 Q. Okay. Now how about the other way 7 around? Did you 1 earn of circumstances under which 8 there was a potentia 1 or possibility or actual 9 occurrence of a mixing of PCBs into a mineral oil 10 transformer? 11 MR. McINTOSH: Objection. That is 12 a compound question and then some, and it would - 13 you're inviting hearsay and speculation. 1 4 A. The discussion held by that committee 15 centered on now that PCBs are perceived as an 16 environmental issue or situation, we wanted to avoid 17 the introduction of PCBs into situations where it 18 wasn't intended to be, and one of them was the 19 presence of PCBs in minera1 oil used in transformers 20 that were designed for mineral oil. 21 The consensus was definitely one of if 22 this occurred it's probably during se rvicing where 23 the individuals servicing the units don't understand Az> QA the situation or are a little bit careless or 25 unknowingly introduced the PCB into the mineral CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059460 70 1 oil. And it was a -- it was something that had to 2 be stopped and controlled. 3 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Were there discussions 4 or did you come to learn of the potentia 1 or 5 possibility or the actual occurrence of the mixing 6 of mineral -- of PCBs into mineral oil in mineral 7 oil transformers in the manufacturing process? 8 MR. BAKER: Objec.t; compound , 9 multiple, lack of foundation, calls for speculation 10 and hearsay. 11 A . . It's my definite understanding that in 12 the manufacturing process those individua1s that 13 represented the manufacturers were confident that 14 their processes were such that that -- the 15 eventuality of that happening was so remote that it 16 was really not of great concern at the time. It was 17 under control in their opinion. 18 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Again , was the matter 19 discussed in the committee; that is, the mixing of 20 the PCBs in minera1 oil? 21 A. I misunderstood. I thought you were 22 talking about oil in PCBs. 23 Q. I'm sorry, PCBs in the mineral oil. 24 A. PCBs in mineral oil were discussed as it 25 related to possible introduction during maintenance CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059461 71 1 activities, servicing activities, not as 2 manufacturing. 3 Q . Was it discussed though that that - 4 there was a possibility or potentia1 of intro d u c tio n 5 of the PCBs into the mineral oil in the 6 manufacturing process? 7 MR. BURKE: Let me object to the 8 que s tion. He's already answered on at least three 9 different occasions that it was discussed, it was 10 addressed, it was the consensus of the group that 11 that was not a major problem a s opposed to 12 servicing. 1 3 Now you can ask the same question I 14 guess as many times as you want to, but I don't know 15 that the answer is going to be any different. 16 You may answer, sir. 17 A. The discussion relating to mixing of the 18 two types of fluids did take place, as I mentioned. 19 The emphasis was on preserving fire retardancy in 20 those days, that was the important . The intermixing 21 or the potentia1 for intermixing was addressed at 22 each site according to its pa rticu1 a r manufacturing 23 process and -- and the layout of the equipment and 2 4 so on. 25 So the mixing of mineral oil into CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059462 72 1 PCB-type fluids and vice versa because of the 2 changes made was considered to be remote. They were 3 comfortable that they had iso 1ated their tanks, they 4 had the -- the pipe lines were different, the -- in 5 some cases where they had the wherewithal they had a 6 separate railroad siting for delivering the tank car 7 to it so that it would not be confused by the 8 operators. 9 That's just an example of what did take 10 place . 11 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) The guidelines which 12 were ultimately -- Well, let me strike that . 1 3 I believe you testified that there was a 14 set of guidelines which were developed as a result 15 of your committee's work, correct? 16 A , You ' re talking now of the AN SI 17 committee ? 18 Q Yes, sir. 19 A . Yes . Yes. 20 Q Let me offer you a -- what I believe is 21 a photocopy of those guide 1ines which have been 22 marked for identification a s Plaintiffs' Exhibit 15 2 3 and ask if you can recognize those. 2 4 A. This appears to be a copy of the 25 guidelines issued by the ANSI committee. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD, (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059463 73 1 Q . Does it appear to be an accurate 2 photocopy of those guidelines? 3 A . It appears to be a full and accurate copy, uh-huh. 5 Q. Do those guidelines govern the disposal, 6 the hand -- excuse me, the handling and disposal of mineral oil which contains PCBs ? 8 MR. BAKER: Object to the use of 9 the word govern and the relevance and materia1ity. 10 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Let me clarify that. 11 Govern in the sense of pertain to. 12 A . Yes. No different than rags and gloves 13 and solvents, diesel fuel. Whatever has PCBs in it 14 this covered it. Whatever has PCBs and associated 15 with transformers and capacitors. 16 Q . Was there a - - Or let me strike that. 17 Do the guidelines attempt to establish 18 any sort of threshold level at which mineral oil or 19 rags or what have you that contain PCBs are 2 0 considered a s contaminated? 21 MR. BAKER: Objection; relevance, 2 2 materiality . 2 3 A. At the time the guidelines were 2 4 prepared, there was no threshold level established 25 by any authority. Lacking that level, it was CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059464 74 1 determined that if PCBs were detectable that the 2 prudent thing to do was treat it as a PCB-containing 3 materia 1 and handle it as described in the 4 guidelines. 5 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Do the guidelines 6 pertain to the disposal of transformers that reach the end of their useful life? 8 A . I'll have to read the tests to refresh 9 my memory. I -- I honestly don't recall. 10 Q . Let me see if I can find that. I have 11 affixed a -- a yellow marker as a -- on Page 17 1 2 which I think is the section which talks about 1 3 transformer disposal. Let me ask you to see if that 14 sect ion right on that page ref reshes your 15 recollection. 16 A I do 1 7 Q . You see that section? 18 A. Yes . 19 Q. Do the guidelines pertain to disposal of 20 transformers which have reached the end of their 21 useful life? 22 A. They -- They do address that, yes. 23 Q. Okay. And in what manner do the 2 4 guidelines suggest that such transformers be 25 handled? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY , LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059465 75 1 MR . BURKE: Excuse me. I have to 2 object to the question. The section referenced to 3 the witness does not describe the type of 4 transformer about which you contend . 11 describes 5 an askarel transformer which is defined over on Page 6 7 of the same standard as a broad class of 7 nonflammable synthetic chlorinated hydrocarbon 8 insulating liquids widely used in capacitors, 9 transformers, reactors , et cetera. 11 is not 10 intended to describe the fate and the disposal of 11 mineral oil transformers that may contain some trace 12 amount of PCB. 13 The question is misleading. It is an 14 attempt to trap the witness and I object. 15 You may answer, Bill excuse me, Mr. 16 Papageorge. 17 MR. WILCOX: I object to move to 18 strike counsel's testimony, and we will explore the 19 matter further with the witness . 20 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Well, first of all, is 21 that the section of the guidelines, these ANSI 2 2 guidelines, which pertains to the disposal of can I 23 call them scrap transformers? Is that a n apt term? 24 up lvlil n ti n t/ d . DUIUXD i nA XL A kJ. LA > e: w^ ill c: uc t ^ rv me; 25 object to the form of that question. The document CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059466 76 1 speaks for itself. It addresses the question of a n as -- of the disposal of an askarel-filled 3 transformer, not a transformer. It is a different 4 entity. I object. You are mis -- You are trying to 5 mis1ead the witness. 6 MR. WILCOX: I think the question is very straightforward. 8 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) You can answer, Mr. 9 Papageorge . 1 0 A. The section we are discussing refers to 11 transformers that were filled with a 1iquid 12 containing PCBs. 13 Q. Okay. Are there sections in the 14 document which pertain to the disposal of mineral 15 oil transformers which may contain some level of 16 PCBs? 17 A. I don't recall it. 18 Q. Do the guidelines provide any assistance 19 or guidance in the handling of mineral oil 20 transformers which were ~~ were found to contain any 21 level of PCBs? 22 A. Again, I don't recall the specific 23 wording, but there are sections here that would 2 4 apply to the various parts of that transformer in 25 terms of do they or do they not contain PCBs and CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059467 *7 1 what's the proper way to dispose of those parts, 2 whether it be the liquid, the shell, the internals, 3 or the rinsings of any -- by any sol vent that might 4 take place. 5 Q. Okay. I put another yellow flag just 6 for assistance on Page 15. I ask if you look at that and see if that is the section that you're 8 referring to in terms of the hand ling of the 9 components. You just went past it. There you go. 10 MR . NETTLETON: Object to the form 11 of the question as there appea r s to be a number of 1 2 sections on Page 15, if you can be a little more 13 specific. 1 4 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) I think it's the 15 left-hand column. 16 A. There is a section entitled Disposal 17 Procedures and Services, and under that -- in that 18 section there is reference to 1iquids containing 19 PCBs , solids containing PCBs, in fact further down 2 0 there is a specific reference to mineral oil 21 contaminated with PCBs, the burnable solid waste and 22 the nonburnables. 23 So any -- the presence of any PCBs in 2 4 these kinds of in st s r i s 1 s is -- -- is covered as it 25 relates to proper disposal. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059468 78 1 Q. So as one who was attempting to dispose 2 of or handle a transformer -- mineral oil 3 transformer that was found to determine -- 4 correction, was found to contain PCBs, I would have 5 to look at the individual item that I was attempting 6 to handle or dispose of for guidance here? 7 A. Yes. 8 MR. BAKER: Objection; move to 9 strike , leading , relevancy,, mater i a 1 i t y . 10 MR. NETTLETON: I object to the 11 compound nature of the question inc1uding both 12 handling and disposal. 13 Q . (BYMR. WILCOX) Let me see if I can 14 clarify. It was a complicated question; I 15 apo1ogiz e. 16 If I'm a user and I'm -- I'm trying to 17 c ompo r t my self with these guidel ines and I determine 18 that the mineral oil in a transformer contains some 19 PCBs, would I find guidance in the ANSI guidelines 20 as.to the handling of the minera1 oil? 21 MR. BAKER : Ob j ection; relevance, 22 materia 1ity . 2 3 MR. BURKE: I object to the 2 4 question to the extent that it misleads and 25 misrepresents. Counsel is representing the party CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059469 79 1 who is not a user but who was last in line, if you 2 will, in a chain of misuse. 3 Answer if you can, Mr. Papageorge. 4 THE WITNESS: I'll try. 5 A. When you refer to the proper handling of 6 this mineral oil that contains PCBs , as long as it's in the unit or in the storage tank or in a drum and 8 under control and is still useful as a dielectric 9 fluid, the precautions of don't let it get into the 1 0 environment apply; in other words, don't have a 11 spill or a leak. 1 2 If that fluid is no longer suitable a s a 13 die 1ectric fluid, it's now a waste, then it must be 14 addressed as a liquid waste containing PCBs and then 15 you address the columns we talked about earlier as 16 to the proper disposal of that waste. 17 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Okay. On Page 15 of 18 the guidelines? 19 A. On Page 15, yes. 20 MR . BURKE: Bill, can you specify 21 the section so no one has to end up guessing when 22 it's over? 2 3 A. It's Section 4.1.6 and the subsections A underneath that 25 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Do you know whether CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059470 80 1 there would be any deficit in the electrical 2 function of a mineral oil transformer which 3 con tained PCBs ? 4 MR. BAKER: Objection; materiality, 5 relevance, foundation, calls for expert testimony of 6 an undesignated expert. 7 A. I'm not -- I'm not qualified to really 8 answer that. I'm under an impression/understanding 9 that a very small amount will not affect 10 performance. 11 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Unlike perhaps the 12 askarel transformer contaminated with mineral oil; 1 3 that is, is there a contrast between the -- the 1 4 functional effect of having the -- the other 15 material in the transformer? Do you understand my 16 question? 17 MR. MeINTOSH: Objection; that's 18 very vague. I think you're going to have to 19 quantify whether you're talking about 5 percent, 15 20 percent. 21 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Let me try to rephrase 22 it. I got tangled up in my own question, Mr. 2 3 Papageorge. 2 4 IX] K g rt T t 3. 1 II B. b O II t U F! G t 1 O !1 3. 1 (3 0 f 1 C 1 t 25 I'm talking about things like a moment ago you - - CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ` (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059471 81 1 you testified that if mineral oil is introduced in a 2 sufficient quantity in an askarel transformer it can 3 deteriorate its fire-retardant capabilities. That's what I mean in terms of function. I flip the 5 situation over and postulate the introduction or 6 mixing of PCBs into minera1 oil. Will that affect the functioning of the transformer in its ordinary 8 use? 9 MR. BAKER: Same obj ection. 10 A. It's my understanding it will not. 11 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Did you ever learn 1 2 about potential sources of contamination of the 13 minera1 oil by PCBs other than I be 1ieve you said 14 servicing as a potential source of contamination? 15 What other sources would there be, if you know? 16 MR. BAKER: Obj ection; spec -17 calls for speculation, calls for hearsay, it's 18 vague, has no ref erence to any transformer that has 19 any relevancy to this case. 20 A. I have not heard of other potential 21 sources of PCBs. 2 2 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) I believe you said you 2 3 did observe some devices which had been installed in 24 manufacturing plants to isolate the systems, 25 correct? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059472 82 1 MR. BAKER: Objection; that wasn't 2 his testimony. \ 3 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) I'm sorry , you heard 4 that discussed? 5 A . I heard it discussed. 6 Q. Did you actually observe any devices 7 that were installed? 8 A. I reca11 a plant, I'm trying to recall 9 just which one it was, where the engineer pointed to 10 the piping systems and pointed that the arrange -11 the pipe sizes and the connections were different 12 sizes deliberately chosen to avoid a misconnection, 13 but I cannot remember which plant it was but that 14 left me with a good impression, a vivid impression 15 of what they had done. 16 Q. Isolate the systems ? 17 A . Yes. 18 Q . Did you ever hear from any 19 representative of either GE or Westinghouse about 20 any PCBs mixing in minera1 oil that had been 21 detected in their plants prior to 1974? 22 MR. BAKER: Objection; hearsay. 23 A. Mixing of PCBs in mineral oils - 24 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Yes, sir. 25 A. -- prior to 1974? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY , LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059473 83 1 Q . Yes, sir. A. Well, as I said earlier, this Mr. R a a b I 3 vividly recall recalled an incident that appeared to 4 have occurred before World War II where there was a 5 mixing situation, but from the '40s into the '70s no 6 such incident had occurred a s I under stood his remarks . 8 Q. Monsanto began manufacturing PCBs in 9 the '30s, correct, sir, 1930s? 1 0 A . Yes. Yes. 11 Q. And when did it -- Did it discontinue 12 manufacturing PCBs at some time? 13 A. Yes. 1 4 Q. And when was that approximately? 15 A. 1977 . 16 Q. Did there come a time when Monsanto 17 limited the sales of PCBs to certain customer s ? 18 MR. NETTLETON: Objection to 19 r e1evancy 20 MR. BAKER: Objection. 2 1 A . Yes. 2 2 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) And what were the 2 3 circumstances under which -- Well, let me strike 2 4 that . 25 Did -- Which customer s did Mon s a nto CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059474 1 limit its sales to? 2 MR. BAKER: Objection; relevancy, 3 materiality. 4 A. Can you help me with the point in time? 5 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Between 1970 and 1975, 6 let's say that five-year period. 7 A. Well, it was an evolving reduct ion. 8 Initially the uses of PCBs in such things as 9 sealants, caulking materials, printing inks, paints 10 and varnishes, carbon less copy paper, those were 11 terminated early -- early fall -- August 1970. The 12 use in industrial hydraulic fluids were phased out 13 such that it was comp1eted by the end of the first 14 quarter in 1971. Later the use in heat transfer 15 systems was discontinued so that by late 1971 the 16 only sales that Monsanto would make was to 17 electrical equipment manufacturers. 18 Q Did there come a time when -- Well, 19 strike that. 20 I'm missing a document. Are some of 21 them still out here on the table? 22 MR . BURKE: Which one is it? 23 MR . WILCOX: I'm not sure of the 2 4 number . 25 MR . RANKIN: Excuse me. This is CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059475 85 1 the end of tape number one of the William Papageorge 2 depo sition. Off the record. 3 (Discussion was held off the record.) 4 MR. RANKIN: Tape number two of the 5 William Papageorge deposition. Proceed. 6 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Let me hand you a 7 document that's been marked for identification as 8 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 8 and see if you can recognize 9 that document. 10 A . I recognize this document. 11 Q . And what is that document? 12 MR. BAKER: Obj ection; materiality r 13 relevance. 14 A . It's a copy of a 1etter dated 15 February 4 , 19 7 2 , signed by Mr. Howard Bergen , the 16 director of the specia1ty products group in 17 Monsanto, with a n attachment entit1ed Special 18 Undertaking by Purchasers of Polychlorinated 19 Biphenyls. 20 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Are you familiar with 21 the -- with the substance of the letter? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And -- And what does the substance 2 4 concernr 2 5 MR. BAKER: Same objection. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059476 86 1 A. The principa1 thrust of this letter is to inform the customer who in 1972 was an electrical 3 equipment manufacturer that in order for Monsanto to 4 continue selling PCBs to that customer, the customer 5 must agree to signing this special undertaking 6 document. Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) What was the purpose of 8 that -- of obtaining that agreement, not the legal 9 purpose but the -- but the purpose in trying to get 10 such a n agreement from the customer? 11 MR. BAKER: Same objection. 12 A. Well, the intent was to - 13 MR. NETTLETON: Object to 14 foundation. 15 A. -- was to get the proper level of 16 authority within each customer's company signing a 1 7 document in which he agrees to certain conditions 18 before he can receive the product, and the intent by 19 so doing was to assure Monsanto that the proper 2 0 authority within each customer's company was aware 21 of the situation to the point where he would make 22 certain that the proper practices were in place so 23 that environmental contamination did not take place 2 4 and that t h s p r o |o a t rssourcss needed to in a 1c 0 bujtb 25 this happens were available, money, people. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059477 87 1 research, whatever it takes. 2 That was the basic purpose of this 3 letter is to make certain that when the customer says we need PCBs because they are important that, 5 in truth, they were willing to -- to understand what 6 it takes to keep using PCBs under the right conditions. 8 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) And what is the date of 9 that 1etter , sir? 1 0 A. February 4, 1972. 11 Q . Do you know whether Monsanto actua11y 1 2 obtained any such agreements from its customers 13 after that date? 14 A Yes. 15 MR. BAKER: Same objection. 16 A. I'm sorry. Yes. 17 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Do you have any 18 specific knowledge about any ofthe particular 19 companies by name that executed such a n agreement? 2 0 MR. NETTLETON: Objection; best 21 evidence rule, hearsay. 22 MR. BURKE: Relevancy. 2 3 A. I have seen lists of the companies that 2, 4 agreed to this arrangement. Idon't propose to 2 5 remember all of the companies on that list. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059478 88 1 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Do you recall whether 2 the list included GE? 3 MR. BURKE: Leading. 4 A . I do recall General Electric Company on 5 the list. 6 Q. 7 (BY MR. WILCOX) How about Westinghouse? MR. NETTLETON: Objection; best 8 evidence, 1eading. 9 MR. BAKER: All the same 10 objections. 11 A. Westinghouse was on the list. 12 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Al1is-Chalmers? 1 3 MR. BAKER: All the same 1 4 objections. 15 A. I don't be 1ieve Allis-Chalmers was on 16 the list. 17 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) How about Moloney or 18 Central Mo 1oney a s it may have been known? 19 MR. BAKER: Same objection. 20 A. They were not on the list. 21 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Or McGraw or 22 McGraw-Edison? 2 3 A. They were not on the list. 2 4 O . Kuh 1 ma n ? 25 A They were not on the list CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD . (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059479 89 1 Q, RTE ? A . That one I don't remember. I don't 3 know. I don't recall. 4 MR. WILCOX: May I suggest we break 5 at this point for lunch and reconvene at 1:30. 6 MR. RANKIN: Off the record a t 7 11:56. 8 (Deposition stood in luncheon recess at 9 approximately 12:00 p.m. and resumed at 10 approximately 1:30 p.m.) 11 AFTERNOON SESSION 12 All parties present, by and through 13 counsel, and the witness, WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, 14 having been previously sworn , testifies further , 15 to-wit: 16 MR. WILCOX: We're back onthe record. 18 MR. RANKIN: Back on the record. 19 CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION 2 0 BY MR WILCOX: 21 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I wanted to revisit the 2 2 ANSI guidelines for just a moment. In the section 2 3 we were discussing, 4.1.6.2, the Classification for 2 4 Disposal of Materials, there was a list of -- of 25 materia1s which included minera1 oil contaminated CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059480 90 1 with PCBs . Following that in 4.1.6.2 . 3 , discussion 2 regarding nonburnable solid waste mat e ria 1s, may I 3 ask you to take a look at that on Page 15 in the 4 left-hand column at the bottom? 5 A . I see it . 6 Q . Would such materials include the core and coil of a transformer? 8 A . Yes. 9 Q . And for the record, what is a core and 1 0 coil of a transformer generally? 11 A . I am not a transformer engineer, but I 12 understand that there's a steel center called a core 13 and then there's a coil made of copper that is 14 entwined around this steel core. 15 Q . And the core and coil fit where in the 16 transformer? 17 A . They're, of course, inside the steel 18 body of the transformer and surrounded by the oil or 19 a s ka r e1 . 2 0 Q. Would the disposal practices that are 21 set forth there pertain to a core and coil of a 2 2 mineral oil transformer which had been found to 2 3 inc1ude PCBs ? 2 4 A V jq cs 25 Q. There's also a discussion adjacent to CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059481 91 1 that on the same page in the same column regarding 2 some burnable materials. What sort of burnable 3 materia 1s does that sect ion pertain to? 4 A. Well, it does list a few. Do you want 5 me to read those? 6 Q. Well, can you just describe generally 7 what they would be? We have a steel container for 8 the transformer, we have the core and coil, and do 9 you also have some nonburnable materials -- or 10 correction, some burnable material? 11 A. I understand there are some supports 12 interna 1ly. Sometime s wood is used, sometimes a 13 plastic material that is considered burnable. 1 4 Insofar as the makeup of a transformer, that is all 15 I can think of that would be described a s burnable 16 contaminated material. Q. Do the transformers, particularly 18 mineral oil transformers, have seals and gaskets and 19 that sort of thing in them? 20 A. Yes, they do. Yes, they do. 21 Q. Would they be burnable ? 22 A. Yes. If -" Unless they're meta 11ic , and 2 3 I don't know of any. 2 4 Q. Let me also, if I may, return to a 25 document that we had talked about and I skipped over CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059482 92 1 part of it. Exhibit 13, which is the one that we had started to break apart and then paper clipped 3 back together , there are three pages there in that 4 document which appear s to be a 1etter which you 5 authored dated February 2nd, 1972. Let me ask you 6 to take a look at that and see if you can identify that letter. 8 A. Well, it's a letter that I prepared and 9 mailed to the two subcommittee chairmen. Dr. 10 Posefsky and Mr. Raab. It's dated February 2, 1972, 11 and attached to it is a -- two sheets consisting of 12 questions and answers relating to PCBs and askarels . 13 Q. Did you prepare the questions and 14 answers a s well? 15 A . I prepared some of the questions. Some 16 of them came as a result of the ANSI committee 17 meeting where the questions were raised and I jotted 18 them down and took them back to the office and added 19 some more questions and then prepared the answers . 2 0 Q. Do the two pages that f o1 low the letter 21 there in s equence go with the letter itself? In 22 other words, were they an attachment to that letter? 2 3 A. Yes . 2 4 O . For the record , would you identify those 25 three pages by the number a t the bottom right-hand CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059483 93 1 corner? A . I will. The number of the letter itself 3 is 14 8 0 7 0 . And the two numbers of the attached 4 pages are 148071 and 148072. 5 Q . And do those three pages appear to be 6 fair and accurate photocopies of the original that 7 you prepared? 8 A. They do . 9 Q. What was the purpose of the question and 10 answer document ? 11 MR. BAKER: Objection; relevance, 1 2 materia 1ity. 13 A. The purpose was to come up with a set of 14 answers to questions which are frequently asked by 15 prima ri1y by individuals who are not f amiliar with 16 RGBs and askarels and the like. And the intent here 17 was to provide these answers and pass them on to 18 members of ANSI and subsequently to their respective 19 companies or organizations, and the intent there is 20 that in the event a local newspaperman calls and 21 starts asking questions they can look up the answer 22 unless they already know it. And that's not only 23 newspaper people, neighbors, their customers, and 2 4 any other person that might want to ask these -- 2 5 this type of question. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059484 94 1 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Do you know whether those questions and answers were distributed to 3 member s of the commi11 e e ? 4 A. Yes, they were. 5 Q , Okay. Thank you. In conjunction with 6 your work with the ANSI committee, did you come to know a Mr. Sheppard, Harry Sheppard? 8 A . Yes. 9 Q . Are you familiar with which company he 10 worked for? 11 A. Yes . I didn't want to mis1ead you. I 12 knew Mr. Sheppard before AN SI committee was formed, 13 and he is with Westinghouse Company. 14 Q 15 S1oat ? How about a Dr. S1oat, do you know Dr. 16 A . Yes, I do. 17 Q- And which company was he -- did he -18 A . -- Westinghouse. 19 Q . And did you confer with either of those 20 gent 1emen in conjunction with the ANSI committee? 21 A . Yes . 22 Q If I recall correctly, this mo r nin g you 23 said you relinquished your responsibilities a s 2 4 chairman of the ANSI committee in 1970 -- -- was it 2 5 1976? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059485 95 1 A . That is correct. 2 Q . And thereafter did you have any further 3 active invo1vement with PCBs ? A. There was one meeting that I attended 5 relating to PCBs called by NIOSH, N-I-O-S-H , the 6 National Institute of Occupationa1 Saf ety and 7 Health , to comment on a proposed document that NIOSH 8 had drafted relating to PCBs and emp1o ye e exposure. 9 Other than that committee I was not 10 active personally with PCBs until about 1983. The 11 individual in Monsanto who was responsible for PCB 1 2 matters was assigned and reported to me in my 13 department. 1 4 Q. Were there any discussions in the 15 commi11 e e about degreasing the transformers prior to 16 scrap and salvage? MR. BURKE: I'm going to object to 18 the form of the question because it is vague and it 19 is non-specific and it does not address the content 2 0 of this document. Again, you're mixing askarel 21 transformers and transformers in genera 1, and that ' s 22 misleading and I object. 2 3 Answer if you can. 2 4 v jd x inn ill c ct ii 111 J_ lO . 2 ^ you, Mr. Papageorge. I'm trying to to determine CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059486 96 1 the scope of discussions, if any existed, regarding 2 degreasing, and I'm not referring to any document at 3 all. I'm rea1ly talking about the ANSI committee. 4 So with that clarification, can you - 5 can you answer? 6 MR . BAKER: Object to the re 1evancy 7 and materiality, lack of foundation. It's vague and 8 compound. 9 MR. BURKE : I would further object 10 because the commi11 e e was formed to address the 11 questions of how to deal with askarel fluids, not 1 2 how to deal with transformers. 13 Once again, sir, answer if you can. 1 4 A . The subject of degreasing transformers 15 was raised as it related to transformers that had 16 contained PCB-type fluids. 17 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) The askarel-type 18 fluids? 1 9 A . Yes. 2 0 Q . Was there any consideration to 21 degreasing of a mineral oil t ran s f o rme r that had 2 2 been found to contain PCBs ? 2 3 MR. BAKER: Same objection. '-'v A Z <4 A I don 1t recal1 any 1eny thy discussion 25 regarding the decontamination of mineral oil units CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059487 97 1 contaminated with PCBs other than the precautionary 2 statement if such a condition exists treat it like a 3 PCB unit, and that was the gist of the discussion. 4 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Was there any 5 discussion that you recall during the course of 6 the -- the workings of the committee regarding the 7 use by anyone, the manufacturers, utilities, 8 whomever, the use of scrap or salvage dealers, junk 9 dealers if you will, for scrap and salvage of 1 0 transformers which had reached the end of their 11 useful life? 12 MR. BAKER: Same objection. 13 A. Yes, there was discussion, and it was 14 one of cautioning those individuals that use this 15 kind of service to be aware of what -- or how this 16 scrap dealer or salvage operation handled the 17 materia 1 . 18 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX ) In my questions this 19 morning I asked you about specific -- some spec ific 20 manufacturers who might have been included on the 21 address list for the notices or the letters that 22 were sent out in the late '60s, early '70s? 23 A. Uh-huh. 2 4 Q. And I neglected to ask you if Wagner was 25 one of those customers who received -- or who may CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059488 98 1 have received those letters? 2 A. Yes, in the early '70s. 3 Q. Do you reca11 whether Wagner was a member or participant in the ANSI committee ? 5 A . I -- I don't remember a representative 6 of Wagner there. 7 Q . Let me ask you to look at a document 8 marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 14, and there's a list of 9 members present at a meeting referenced there and 10 see if that refreshes your recollection at all about 11 the membership of the committee. 1 2 MR. NETTLETON: Object to the 13 question. It implies that he needs his memory 14 ref reshed . 15 A. This -- This committee has to do with 16 mineral oil. 17 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Yes, sir. i 18 understand. It is the only reference that I have 19 the membership. 20 A . This is not the raembe rship of ANSI . 21 Q . All right , sir. 22 That answers the question. That's fi ne . That's 23 A . Okay . 24 KinvaJ. -ri rD>UttJKIXvrEm/ ;- n d^ y Tj. c cm ,, ... "u il 3. tU g 2 5 please? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059489 1 MR. WILCOX: Yeah . 2 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Now, I may have 3 neglected to ask a couple of technical questions 4 this morning. I want to revisit those very briefly 5 and ask you to reexamine a couple of documents and 6 see if they appear to be true and correct copies of the original a s you reca11 it. 8 Specifically, I would ask you to look at 9 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2 and see if it is a true and 10 correct copy to the best of your knowledge of the 11 original document. 12 MR. BAKER: Object to the form of 13 the question since it's a 1 ready been testified to 14 that this is not a true and correct copy of the 15 original. 16 A. From what I see it appears to be a true 17 copy . 18 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) The same question 19 regarding paragraph -- correct ion, Plaintiffs' 2 0 Exhibit 3. 21 MR. BAKER: Same objection. 22 A. This appears to be a true copy. 23 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) And Plaintiffs' Exhibit 4 same question. 25 MR. BAKER: Same objection. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059490 10 0 1 A . This also appears to be a true copy. 2 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) And Plaintiffs' Exhibit 3 6 same question, sir. 4 MR . BAKER: Same objection. 5 A. This also appears to be a true copy. 6 Q. y question. (BY MR. WILCOX) And Exhibit 7 same 8 MR. BAKER: Same objection. 9 A . This appears to be a true copy also. 10 Q . (BY MR . WILCOX) And Plaintiffs ' Exhibit 11 8 same question. 12 MR. BAKER: Same obj ection. 13 A. Exhibit 8 is also a true copy. 14 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Plaintiffs' Exhibit 9 15 same question. 16 MR. BAKER: Same objection. 17 A . This particular copy for some reason is 18 missing the Monsanto logo on the 1etterhead. Other 19 than that , it's a -- it's a true copy of the text. 20 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Okay . You previously 21 discussed the extraneous remarks -- or correction , 22 the extraneous markings at the top and the bottom 23 with respect to the number s. This particular 2 4 document also has some handwritten notes here on the 25 upper right-hand portion ad j ac ent to the addressee . CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059491 101 1 Do you know what those particular markings are? 2 A. I believe I do. This particular copy 3 was sent to Mr. Howard Bergen, and Mr. Bergen had 4 his own terminology that he would mark his copies 5 for filing by his secretary. So what this says, 6 that he had a file that he referred to as A r o c1o r 7 toxicity and this reference here is to his 8 secretary, Myra Stanley. 9 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir. And finally. 10 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 10 same question. 11 MR. BAKER: Same objection. 1 2 A. This appears to be a true copy. 13 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) I asked you about 1 4 Plaintiffs' Exhibits 15 and all of 13 with the 15 exception of the January 19th, 1972 , 1etter , 16 document number 148069 which we discussed earlier. 17 I s the 1etter a -- correction, does the letter 18 appear to be a true and correct copy of the 19 original? 2 0 A. It does. 21 Q. All right, sir. Bear with me just one 22 moment. I want to double-check my notes , but I 2 3 think that's all I have. 2 4 I did miss one point. Are you familiar 2 5 with a n organization which I believe has the CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059492 10 2 1 initials C-I-G-R-E? MR. BAKER: Objection; re 1evance 3 and materiality. A. I have heard of it. 5 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Do you know what that 6 organization is? 7 A. I understand that it's the European 8 equivalent of the NEMA organization in the United 9 States . 10 Q. And NEMA being the National Electrical 11 Manufacturers Association? 12 A . Correct. 13 Q. Do you know whether the CIGRE 14 organization or any other committees were looking 15 into the PCB in the environment issue around the 16 early '70s? 17 MR. BAKER: Objection; foundation, 18 re 1evancy, materia 1ity, hearsay. 19 A. I was awa r e that CIGRE was addressing 20 PCBs and the environment as it relates to the 21 European area. I do not know of any other similar 22 organization that was so involved. 2 3 Q. (BY MR. WILCOX) Did the American 2 4 National Standards Institute adopt the guidelines 25 we've been discussing here today as Exhibit 15? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059493 103 1 MR. BAKER: Objection; relevancy, 2 materiality . 3 A. Yes. 4 Q . (BY MR. WILCOX) Did they? 5 A . Yes. 6 Q. Okay, And do you know about when they 7 adopted those standards ? 8 A. January 1974. 9 MR. WILCOX: Thank you, Mr. 10 Papageorge. Your witness. 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. BURKE: 14 Q . Mr. Papageorge, my name is Tom Burke. I 15 represent Genera 1 Electric Company in this case . I 16 will try to be brief and I'll try not to repeat, but 17 every time you hear a lawyer say I only have a few 18 questions watch out. 19 Monsanto manufactured PCB 1iquids and 20 fluids beginning sometime in the late '20s through 21 1977; is that correct? 22 A. Not quite. Monsanto acquired a company 23 that was manufacturing PCB s in the late '20s and 24 Monsanto became involved as a company with the 25 manufacture in 1934. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ( 314) 727-650 3 WATER PCB-SD0000059494 10 4 1 Q . That was the Swan Chemica1 Company ? A. Yes. 3 Q. And from 1934 then until 1977 Monsanto 4 was the man -- the sole domestic manufacturer of 5 PCBs ? 6 A. As far as I know, yes. Q . Okay. And in that time is it accurate 8 that a number of applications for those fluids were 9 de rived ? 10 A . Yes. 11 Q. And one of those applications was in 12 electrical equipment? 13 A . Yes. 14 Q . Transformers and capacito r s ? 15 A . Yes. 16 Q . In the later years , did that come to be 17 called a c 1 o sed-end use? 18 A . Yes. 19 Q . And all of the other uses were either 2 0 open-ended uses, like the carbon paper and the 21 paints and the plasticizers, and the semi-closed 22 uses , the heat transfer fluids; is that accurate? 23 A . O A systems I would include industrial hydraulic 25 Q. As the semi-closed? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059495 10 5 1 A. As a semi-closed, yes. 2 Q . And the reason that PCB fluids were used 3 in hydraulic applications, in heat transfer , and electrical equipment was because they offered a 5 great degree of fire safety to the facilities and to 6 the people that worked around that equipment, correct? 8 A . Yes. 9 Q . Is it accurate to say that over the 10 course of their use that PCB fluids were considered 11 a useful product for many applications where fire 12 safety was important ? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q . Beginning in 19 7 0 when Monsanto became 15 concerned about the presence of PCB in the 16 environment, and you told us about Monsanto's 17 efforts to disseminate information about this 18 environmental presence, did you find in your work 19 that the electrical equipment manufacturers shared 2 0 the concern that Mon santo had ? 21 A. Yes, definitely. 22 Q. Did the equipment manufacturers 23 participate with Monsanto in discussing and studying 2 4 and attempting to reach a, consensus about the 2 5 appr op riat e use of PCBs? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059496 106 1 A Yes 2 Q . Did any electrical equipment 3 manufacturer at any time indicate to you or did you learn from anybody else at Monsanto that any 5 electrical equipment manufacturer did not want to 6 pa rticipate in a discussion and a sharing of 7 inf ormation about PCBs ? 8 A . Never. 9 Q. Did any electrical equipment 10 manufacturer say to you that they did not want 11 government participation, for e x amp1e, in the 12 discussions? 13 A. Not to me, no . 14 Q. Did you find for the most part the 15 manufacturers to be cooperative? 16 A Yes 1 7 Q . Interested in 1 earning more? 18 A. Yes. 1 9 Q. Did they share your goal and your 20 efforts in attempting to disseminate information to 21 their customers? 22 A . Definitely, yes. 23 Q. Did you at any time review materials OA I C&. t*. V_ ^--* CL .F. -L ^ i LI 'C-- X X C > rl -j- j 25 pass on to their customers to see if they had CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059497 107 1 accurately described some of the information about 2 PCBs ? 3 A . Yes. 4 Q . And as far as you know, was that 5 informat ion pas sed on to their customers? 6 A . Yes. Q. The discussions that took place, you 8 talked earlier about open meetings. What do you 9 mean by that ? 10 A. I meant that the -- no one who wanted to 11 attend the meeting was exc1uded, and we tried to 1 2 publicize the fact that we were meeting as much as 13 we could to those that appeared to us to have been 14 interested. 15 Q . And were there government agencies that 16 became interested and participated? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q . Particularly in the ANSI meetings ? 19 A . Yes. 20 Q. Looking at Exhibit 12 for just a minute, 21 one of the attachments to Exhibit 12, Mr. 22 Papageorge, is some recommendations for the 23 OA *3? inclusion of various groups who might be interested I W x ii t____Lt;xpa txuy -4 vs d xn cl ,--j "21 r~, r-> 1 ,-x vx i~ i-v P lii a t 7i KT C* T T.1 -v -< wao -i ^ ywuiy 25 to set up that later became the committee. Let me CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ( 314 ) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059498 108 1 try and focus your attention on that if I can. 2 Mr. Papageorge, I'm going to show you 3 what's been marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 12 with 4 particular reference to a -- to the first cover 5 portion of the document or one of the first letters 6 in this compi1ation of documents dated February 23rd, 1971, and 1ooking at Page 8 of that document, 8 can you take a look at that for me for just a second 9 and then we'll -- 10 A . -- I've reviewed it. 11 Q . All right, sir. Without reading all of 12 the individual entities , can you describe for us the 13 groups that are inc1uded in that suggested group of 1 4 folks to participate in a conference about PCBs and 15 the environment? 16 A . Well, there were groups representing the 17 major industrial trade organizations; for example, 18 the American Society for Testing and Materia 1s, the 19 Certified Ballast Manufacturers Association, or the 20 Edison E1ectric Institute. Those are e x amp1e s of -- 21 Q . Is the Edison Electric Institute, is 22 that a utility g roup? 23 A . I be 1ieve it is, yes. Uh-huh. OA /Li And then cinohher princips 1 cfiroiijo wss l-he 2 5 government g roup as represented by Environmental CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ( 314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059499 109 1 Protection Agency or the Department of Defense, the Atomic Energy Commission, TVA, Tennessee Valley 3 Authority. And then we have such groups as the -- a representative of the transformer equipment 5 servicing company, Dob 1e Engineering Company. Then 6 there's a representative,, for example, of an 7 incineration operation, Rollins Pearl . Underwriters 8 Laboratories. And then the Water Pollution Control 9 Federation . 10 Q. Okay. All right . In that same Exhibit 11 12 I've dog-eared a page. Can you flip over to that 12 one, and starting down here at the bottom on this 13 recommendation going over to the next page, is that 14 another listing of g roups that is recommended to be 15 inc1uded in the discussion of PCBs in the 16 environment or have I got the wrong page? 17 A. That is the correct page,, 18 Q Okay . 19 A. And the list does include other groups 2 0 that are recommended for inclusion on this 21 committee . 22 Q. And is this a -- basically did you folks 23 end up with a -- with a wide-ranging group of folks 2 4 x r o m a number of disciplines' that were invited to 25 participate in the discussion of PCB and the CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059500 110 1 environment? A VJ- ep* teO 3 Q. Now, when the EPA folks and the TV A folks and the Food and Drug Administration people 5 show up, the FDA, did they have representatives? 6 A. They were there, but they were not listed a s formal member s of the committee . 8 Q. Did the EPA folks, were they satisfied 9 with the progress that the group was making in 10 discussing the means and methods for the proper 11 handling and disposal of askarel? 1 2 A. Yes. 1 3 Q. Did they encourage the group to continue 14 meeting and to prepare the guide lines? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did they ever express any 17 dissatisfaction with the degree of progress or by 18 the reticence of any of the electrical equipment 19 manufacturers , for example, to cooperate? 2 0 A . No . 21 Q. Did you see any noncooperation by any of 2 2 the electrical equipment manufacturers during the 2 3 committee process? 24 A . I did not . 25 Q. Were people candid and open about their CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY , LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059501 1 experiences and their problems and issues in 2 handling of PCBs? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Over -- there's another -- is this - 5 Looking again at Exhibit 12, is that another list of 6 potentia1 participants in the ANSI group? 7 A. This? Yes, this list is another listing 8 and it differs from the previous in that it includes 9 the names of individua1s associated with the trade 1 0 organizations or governmental entities or service 11 companies. 12 Q. Okay. So those persons could be 1 3 contacted ind -- on an individual basis and asked to 14 participate? 15 A, That is correct. 16 Q . Okay. All right, sir. And lastly, the 17 last page that I have marked in that exhibit, is 18 that yet another list of additional groups that 19 could be potentia1 participants in the ANSI 2 0 committees? 21 A . Yes. 22 Q. And is -- does that include labor also? 2 3 A . Yes 2 4 Q . Okay. That would be the unions, 25 organized 1abor, correct? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059502 112 1 A . That is correct. 2 Q. And that would be because organized 3 labor works in factories and they would have an 4 interest in this issue? 5 A. Certainly. 6 Q. What other kinds of groups that we've not mentioned are inc1uded in that last list, sir, 8 can you give us a n idea? 9 A. Let me -- I don't reca1 1 all of the -10 the previous listing but I see here, for example, 11 the American Insurance Association , American Medical 12 Association. I believe those are dif ferent from the 13 previous listings. I also see a reference to the 14 Department of Interior by agency , the Boonevilie 15 Power Agency, the Bureau of Rec1araation, and the 16 Water Resources Scientific Inf ormation Center . Get a little more specific there . 18 Q . Okay . Now, in terms of the groups that 19 did participate in the ANSI committee, were they 20 encouraged to discuss this issue with others in 21 order to obtain additiona1 input and information 22 that the committee could use ? 23 A. Certainly. This was expected of each O A representative, uh=huh. 25 Q. Did any member of the committee attempt CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314 ) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059503 11 3 1 to sensor or control or limit the info rmation that 2 the committee was either obtaining or disseminating? 3 A . No . Q . In fact , wasn't it the opposite way 5 around, that peoplewere looking for information and 6 input on this question? 7 A . Certainly, and assignments were given 8 from meeting to meeting to pursue certain points. 9 Q . And the way the meetings were conducted 10 was periodically the working g roups would get 11 together, have a discus sion, prepare minutes, 12 arrange for the next meeting, take their 13 assignments, and go on to the next meeting, correct? 14 A. Close to it. There was I'm going to 15 call it a pienary session where everyone was in the 16 same room whereI attempted to bring everybody up to 17 date and sort of set the tone for the -- the 18 subsequent day, the rest of the day, and sometimes 19 it would spend a second day working. 20 Then the two groups would break into 21 working groups, capacitor s in one part and 22 t ran s f o rme r s in another room, and they in turn at 2 3 times would break down into even smaller g roups to 2 4 etciGr0BS very specific 5 r 6 s s 2-1 n ia tnsrG w ci s 3. lor o l 25 give and take and discus sion and a s sig nme nt s, and CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314 ) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059504 114 1 finally a consensus was reached and the appointed 2 person who served as secretary of the subcommittee 3 would prepare a draft. 4 The draft would then be circulated among 5 the members of that subcommittee for their review 6 and comment, and this continued until total consensus was reached and the proposed document was 8 prepared . 9 Q . And in the ordinary course of the way 10 that groups like this conduct their business, this 11 is typica1, was this committee's work typica1 of the 12 way that such a committee operates? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And the purpose of it again was to 15 obtain and dis seminate information about the 16 question of PCB in the environment? 17 A . Correct. 18 Q . And how to contro1 and appropriately use 19 the material? 2 0 A Correct 21 Q. When you delivered your comments -- may 22 I have the exhibits , please? -- to the first 23 committee -- or the first meeting I should say, O& A excuse me, on September 14th, 1971, which is Exhibit 2 5 No, 10, you identified that earlier as your CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY , LTD . (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059505 115 1 presentation and your ob -- your observation and 2 comments about the status as of that time, correct, 3 sir? 4 A . That is correct. 5 Q. And in looking through that document, of 6 all of the issues and questions discussed concerning PCBs, it was not in the forefront a t that time the 8 question of the presence of PCB in mineral oil 9 transformers in the past, was it? 10 A . No . 11 Q. Your focus in this document Exhibit 10 12 was on the current status of the work that had been 13 done to find and confirm the presence of PCB in the 14 environment, correct? 15 A. That's part of it, yes. 16 Q . Some other work by others studying its 17 potentia1 toxicity on environmental samples, 18 correct? 19 A. That is correct . 20 Q. And again, other issues concerning the 21 use of PCBs ? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. In terms of how PCB got into the AZi <9 environment, is it accurate that the opportunity to 25 enter the environment came more from the open-ended CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059506 116 1 and semi-closed uses than from the -- what were considered the closed-end uses? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. A person throws away a piece of 5 carbonless copy paper, it ends up in a -- in a 6 garbage can somewhere and in a landfill somewhere 7 and that has an opportunity to enter the soil and 8 water there , correct? 9 A . Yes. 1 0 Q . And it is a much more likely source than 11 a transf ormer that may sit on a po1e for thirty to 12 forty years, for example? 13 A. I believe so, yes. 14 Q . Okay. The Exhibit No. 3 we talked about 15 earlier and you identified it a few months -- a few 16 minutes ago a s being a true and correct copy of a 17 document that you remember seeing while you were 18 emp1oyed at Monsanto? 19 A . I did. 20 Q . Correct? Now, missing from that Exhibit 21 No . 3 though is the attachment that Monsanto had 22 originally inc1uded which was the piece from the maga zine Chemica1 Week, correct? 2 4 A . That is correct 25 Q. Chemica1 Week is what's called the trade CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059507 117 1 publication for folks in the chemical business? A . That's one of the trade publications. 3 Q . And do you reca11 or have any reca1 1 of 4 the contents of that particular attachment from 5 Chemical Week that was included with that letter? 6 A . I do. 7 Q . Can you tell us what that was, sir? 8 A. This was a compilation state by state of 9 the legislation and regulations that existed in each 10 state in -- at the end of 1969 by state as to what 11 was permitted to enter the publie waterways . 12 Q. And do you recall whether PCBs were 13 listed in any state as a substance specifically? 1 4 A . Nowhere was it listed. 15 Q. Just not mentioned at all? 16 A . That i s correct. 17 Q. Now , you told us ear 1ier about your 18 understanding of the Yushow incident in which a 19 number of -- of persons consumed rice oil that had 2 0 had PCBs introduced during the heat transfer process 21 when it was manufactured? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. PCB fluids have never been recommended 2 4 or have never been used or sold or designed to be 25 used as a food product? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059508 118 1 A . That is correct. 2 Q. This was a failure in the heat transfer 3 process? 4 A . Yes. 5 Q . That made some people sick when they ate 6 it? A. Well, the incident created a situation 8 where people got sick. I don't personally know of 9 any evidence that said the PCBs in themselves caused 10 the illnesses . 11 Q. One would expect a group of persons who 1 2 eat an industrial chemica1 not intended to be a food 13 to become ill; that's a logical conclusion, isn't 14 it? 15 A . Yes, sir. 16 Q . It's jus t that this incident invo1ved or 17 was said to involve PCBs, correct? 18 A. That is correct. 19 Q . There have been before and since other 20 incidents invo1ving industrial chemica1s that have 21 somehow gotten into the food chain and made people 22 ill? 23 nA A. -- w -v -r Cl 11 _Y t--< A I believe so. I don't personally recall o. 4 1-- 4 ^ It -s w -i-- v* *~'i v~*v 11D UQUOC I 1l-\ 1 {-- i 4" v~ o* c 1 WUO J. U 3 1 2 5 It's certainly possible, yes, sir CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059509 119 1 One of the attachments to one of the 2 exhibits had to do with a 1etter from you in which 3 you described the sensitivity of various hardware 4 owned by government agencies that could be used to 5 measure PCBs, correct ? 6 MR. WILCOX: 13. 7 A . I don't know that it was spec ific to 8 hardware. 9 MR. WILCOX: It's one with the 10 paper clip a t the top, 13. 11 MR. BURKE: Here. Here. It's 1 2 right here. Thank you, John. 13 Q. (BY MR. BURKE) Well, I've obviously 14 misunderstood it then. In that document, which is 15 148089, you are writing to Mr. Raab and Mr. 16 Posefsky, correct? 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. Are you describing there the sensitivity 1 9 of the machinery or the gas chromatograms tomeasure 20 PCBs in a samp1e ? 21 A. I am prescribing the sensitivity that 22 was achieved by Monsanto's 1aborato ry using 23 Monsanto's analytical method, FDA's method, and O *A n C* FA 7\ I *-i uourt o w 4- U ^ i ia A/I /-\ v\ r4 n. w -!- .% /> of n i 10 m v~i 4- me jlii L'luiioaiJL-u Cwjuipuicn t 25 Q . I see. I see. So that's not a CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059510 120 1 description, for example, of how good the FDA was at 2 measuring PCB levels in environmental samples? 3 A. Well, it's indicative of their 4 capabi1ity using their method that they had adopted 5 and circulated widely with the instruments used by 6 good laboratories at that time. ~j Q . Is it accurate -- Excuse me. 8 A. This is a degree of sensitivity that 9 could be achieved with reliability. 10 Q . Yeah. Is it accurate to say that those 11 levels of sensitivity and accuracy were not always 1 2 achieved? 13 A. Oh, that's very likely, yes. 1 4 Q . Is it -- Is it not true, sir, that in 15 the -- in the early days, especially the early 16 1970s, that even many good labs with a good method 17 and good equipment have difficulty in reliably 18 reproducing results in environmental samples for PCB 19 levels? 20 A. That experience was very common. 21 Q. Is it not true that it occurs today even 22 with the -- all the experience that has been 23 O -AS' gathered in the last twenty years? TV trx T vn i. n w it jlu j n n i r! v> rl \ i ri i c c il o x u c r _hj. v u f j rv xt o o 25 Q . 11 has never been easy to accurately and CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD . (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059511 121 1 consistently measure PCB levels in environmental - 2 in environmental samples; is that accurate, sir? 3 A . True. 4 Q. And it remains a complicated and 5 difficult thing to do today even for competent 6 people? A . Yes. 8 Q . Now, in your discussions with the ANSI 9 committee and with the other work that you did with 10 Monsanto, in order to know whether any mineral oil 11 transformer, for example, has PCBs in it you would 12 have to take a sample and analyze it, correct? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q . And the committee never recommended that 15 minera1 oil samp1es -- or that mineral oil 16 transformers be sampled before they're disposed of, 17 did they? 18 A. No, unless there's good reason to 19 suspect contamination and you wish to confirm it. 20 Q . In fact, the regulations that came along 21 in the late '70s prescribed a protocol and a 2 2 procedure for a utility, for example, who owned a 23 large number of transformers if they wanted to 24 0 j-ju if t h 0 y had PCBs in t h 0 i jc m i n 0 jt a 3 oil 25 transformers, a procedure and a protocol for that, CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314 ) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059512 12 2 1 correct? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q That was nonexistent in the early 1970s, 4 wasn't it? 5 A . That is true. 6 Q We talked earlier about there never 7 really being a level prescribed by government 8 because of the absence of a regulat ion or a statute 9 in the early '70s for a PCB level that would require 10 some kind of action, correct? 11 A . That is correct. 12 Q Are you familiar at all with the 13 regulations that were finally adopted in 1979? 1 4 A . Somewhat. 15 Q Do you reca11 the portion that permitted 16 the owner of a transformer to dispose of mineral oil 17 with fifty part s per million or less of PCB a s if it 18 was unregulated? 19 A . Yes, I do . 20 Q Now as far a s that goes that addressed 21 the question of PCB, correct? 22 A . Correct. 23 Q But it never authorized or sanctioned or 2 4 implied any permission that mineral oil could simp1y 25 be dumped out on the ground, did it? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059513 12 3 1 A. That is true. 2 Q. Mineral oil itself can make people sick, 3 sir, can't it? 4 A. Well, if it's misused or ingested. 5 Q. Going back to Exhibit 3, which was the 6 Chemica1 Week excerpt that's not attached to Exhibit y 3, do you reca1 1 whether oils, petroleum products, 8 were excluded from drinking waters in that -- in the 9 listing of the fifty states ? 10 A. I'm confused by your ref erence to 11 excluded from drinking water. There was reference 12 to the fact that petroleum oil should not be 13 discharged into pub1ic waterways. 14 Q . Okay. And mineral oils are a petroleum 15 product? 16 A Yes. 17 Q. So is it accurate that most of the 18 states regulated mineral oils back in 1969? 1 9 A . Yes. 2 0 Q . Do you recall, Mr. Papageorge, whether 21 lead was included in the Chemica1 Week? 22 A . Yes, I remember lead, uh-huh. 23 Q. Lead, in fact, has a substantia 1 2 4 toxicity attached to it as far as you know7? 2 5 A. Yes, sir. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD, (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059514 124 1 Q. And that was included in the Chemical 2 Week excerpt that's not attached to Exhibit 3 but is 3 mentioned in it? 4 A Yes 5 Q . Okay. We talked earlier you told us 6 about your dissemination of information to customers of record. The Florida Power & Light Company was a 8 customer of record of yours, correct? 9 A . Yes. 10 Q . One of the exhibits we've marked here 11 today, Exhibit No. 7, is -- I think you told us was 12 in approximately 1974? 13 A. That is correct. 14 Q. That guide, does itnot, addresses 15 askarel transformers which are those transformers 16 using PCB fluids, correct? 1 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q . That document does not address the 19 question of, for want of a better term, the care and 20 feeding of minera1 oil transformers, does it? 21 A . That was not intended to do that. 22 Q. The -- The discussion within the ANSI 23 committee concerning the disposa1 of askarel and 24 AC.i*lfwA. j.rpI - v ---a j m a f V" l a 1 q f I -a Cirjmm-j HMrl ri riv* alb tJ. _e_ u. jl f L- X 2 Bv &L1 1LB -2- O O C ' - M. -L. vL 2 A A-/ I - 25 include in its guideline or recommend at any time CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY f LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059515 1 OR 2L. * 1 the -- that scrap dealers not be used by individuals 2 seeking to dispose of transformers, correct? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. We've talked about ANSI and the 5 committee and the standard, et cetera . Those folks, 6 it's the American National Standards Institute, 7 correct? 8 A . That is correct. 9 Q. And they have a n office in New York? 10 A . Yes. 11 Q. I think it's still in New York. It may 1 2 have moved to Philadelphia; I'm not sure. And one 13 of their purposes is to disseminate information 14 about standards for the use of mate rials in 15 industrial concerns, correct? 16 A. Well, it's not only use of materials. 17 Other standard practices that are important to a 18 pa rticular industry. 19 Q . So that there's some uniformity and 20 consistency in what the customer s of a particu1 a r 21 industry will buy, correct? 2 2 A. That's one of the objectives, yes. 2 3 Q. And when this standard was adopted by 2 4 ie asKk ii 25 correct? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059516 12 6 1 A . Yes. 2 Q . Any interested person who was either 3 involved in the industry in some fashion or was 4 concerned about what was going on with a particu1 a r 5 issue could contact ANSI and could obtain it, 6 correct? A. Yes. 8 Q . Do you yourself know whether ANSI ever 9 addressed the question of -- that may have been of 10 common interest to manufacturers of lead-acid 11 storage batteries ? 12 A. I'm not personally familiar with that, 13 no . 1 4 Q. Would it be the kind ofthing that they 15 might address and adopt standards for? 16 A. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they 17 didn't address something 1ike that. 18 Q . And it' s equally reasonable to assume 19 that people involved in the batterybusines s would 20 be aware of ANSI and its standards? 21 A. Again, I wouldbe surprised if they were 2 2 not . 23 Q. And wou1d it be reasonable to assume 2 4 t It 3 t 3_ rsssonsbls st3.ncl3.1rcl for t li s in s n u f s c 111 r 6 of 25 1ead-acid storage batteries would include a CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059517 12 7 1 guideline or a recommendation not to discharge lead oxide waters into the environment? 3 A . 11 would be - MR. WILCOX: Objection; beyond the 5 scope of direct. It's beyond the scope of this 6 witness's knowledge and testimony and is not material to this case. 8 Q.(BY MR. BURKE) I think we may have 9 missed your answer. We want to be sure and get it, 10 sir. 11 A. It would be reasonable. 12 Q . The indemnity agreement that we talked 13 about, a s you understand that particular document, 1 4 sir , and that is for purposes of this discussion 15 Exhibit 8, as you understand that agreement is it 16 not accurate that that is a -- a standard comme rcia 1 17 transaction between busine ase s that occurs on a 18 routine basis, it's just that this one happened to 19 address the sale of PCB s, correct? 2 0 A. That's my understanding, yes. 21 Q. Businesses in their dealings use 2 2 indemnity agreements a lot, correct? 2 3 A . That's what I understand. 9 A Ci M r> w vnn -h 1 rl no i- Id zs i~ i f wa e 25 contemplated or it was hoped that someone using a CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ( 314 ) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059518 128 1 scrap dealer for the disposal of askarel 2 transformers, for e x amp1e, as described in the 3 guidlines were using the scrap dealer with respect 4 to any askarel-soaked materials or containing 5 materials that the scrap dea1er would be advised 6 and/or cautioned about the need to prevent its entry 7 into the environment, correct? 8 A . That is correct. 9 Q. The way that occur s and the way that is 10 supposed to occur is by the person dealing with the 11 scrap dealer to provide that information, correct? 12 A. Certainly. 13 Q. And if the scrap dea1er gets that 14 information from the person it's dea1ing with then 15 it can conduct itself accordingly? 16 A. It is expected to, yes. 17 Q . And if that information is not 18 transmitted, for examp1e, it would be more 19 difficult? 20 A . 11 certainly would. 21 Q. In terms of the relationship between 22 manufacturers, for example, once the manufacturer 2 3 has sold and distributed the product, he has no way 2 4 of k q o vj i n cf h o his c u. s t. o its s it dispos6S of it w x t li 2 5 does he ? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059519 12 9 1 A . I don't see how he can. 2 Q. And with respect to the question of PCBs 3 in the environment, you participated with Monsanto's 4 customers in looking a t and not necessarily 5 approving but in reviewing correspondence that the 6 manufacturers of electrical equipment who purchased 7 PCBs from Mon santo wanted to pass on to their 8 customer s, correct? 9 A . Yes. 10 Q. Was one of those GE? 11 A. Yes. 1 2 Q. A s you look back, Mr. Papageorge, over 13 the years and in your work with the ANSI commi11ee, 14 and when you look at the work of the committee that 15 was done in p reparing the C10 7 standard , were you 16 satisfied that the manufacturers who were producing 17 this equipment were concerned and -- and cared that 18 the issue be addres sed and discussed and dealt with? 19 A. Oh, very much so. In fact, they were 20 the 1 eader s in -- in proposing this approach. 21 Q. And did the standard in your view that 2 2 was promulgated meet that goal? 2 3 A . Yes. 9< "AX MB nricK TT rP K : 'P lo i' 9 e; 25 all I have. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314 ) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059520 13 0 1 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 2 MR. NETTLETON: Go off the record 3 tor a second 4 MR. RANKIN: Off the record. 5 (Deposition stood in temporary recess.) 6 MR. RANKIN: Back on the record. MR. NETTLETON: Before we continue 8 with the cross-examination, I'd just like to state 9 on behalf of Westinghouse for the record that we 10 understand this cross-examination is taken subject 11 to our previous objections to documents. In light 12 of the proffer that's been made, however, we're 13 being required to go forward with the cross a s if 14 the documents were proper 1y asked about and admitted 15 into evidence. 16 MR . SPARROW: That's on behalf of 17 all defendants, I believe? 18 MR. NETTLETON: Yes. 19 MR . BAKER: You have the obj ection 2 0 that it's my position that our ability to 21 cross-examine the witness has been improper 1y 22 impaired by plaintiffs' counse1's refusal to specify 23 the alleged relevance of the questions which were 2 4 objected to during his direct exsniinstioH so t h ci t 25 cross-examination on whatever it is that he be 1ieves 1 CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ( 314 ) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059521 131 1 is to be of relevance of this testimony can't be 2 undertaken. 3 Therefore, we object and move to strike 4 all of the direct examination. 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION ; 6 BY MR. McINTOSH: Q . Mr. Papageorge, was it the consensus and 8 the state of mind of the C10 7 committee that the 9 primary sources of PCB contamination would be and 10 was the results of accident s in the field in the 11 maintaining and servicing of the transformers and 12 not in the manufacture of the transformers? 13 A. Would you help me with contamination of 14 what? 15 Q . Contamination of minera1 oil with PCBs. 16 A . The answer to that is yes. 17 Q . And was it the opinion of the C10 7 18 committee that there was not a consistent level of 19 PCBs in mineral oil transformers as they left the 20 manufacturers? 21 A. I'm confused by your use of the word 22 consistent level. 23 Q . Well, that a certain percentage of 2 4 mineral oil transformers as they left the 25 manufacturers, was it the opinion of the --- of your CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059522 13 2 1 committee that when these transformers, these 2 mineral oil transformers, left the manufacturers 3 there was not a high percentage of them that contained PCB contamination? 5 A. That is true. 6 Q . And the most probable source of PCB contamination in transformer oil occurred after the 8 transformers were delivered to the utility compa nie s 9 and the uti1ity companies began to maintain them and 10 service them or have them maintained and serviced by 11 outside c ompa nie s ? 12 A. That was the opinion of the committee * 13 Q . And did that opinion ever change ? 14 A . No . 15 Q . And, sir, is it correct to say that it 16 was the duty and the responsibility of the user of 17 the transformer to proper 1y instruct the scrap yard 18 or the disposer of the transformer in the proper way 19 to handle the dielectric fluids in the transformer? 20 A . Yes. 21 Q . So as between Florida Power & Light and 2 2 Pepper's Scrap Yard , it would be up to Florida Power & 23 Light to instruct Pepper's Scrap Yard a s to how to 24 hand1e these fluids ? 25 A, Certainly. They're the only ones in the CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059523 133 1 position to do this properly. MR. McINTOSH: I have no further 3 questions, sir. 4 May we go off the record while I pass 5 the microphone to my colleague? 6 MR. RANKIN: We can continue on. MR. McINTOSH: Okay. 8 MR. SPARROW: Kuh1man Corporation, 9 Bert Spa r row. I have no questions of this witness . 10 MR. BAKER: I'm David Baker 11 representing Centra 1 Mo1oney, Inc., and sub j ect to 12 the objections I've a 1r e a dy registered both a s to 13 the direct examination and the inability to -14 imprope r impairme nt of cross-examination, I have no 15 questions of the witness at this time. 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION 17 BY MS. MONTES: 18 Q. My name is Ye 1va Montes, and I represent 19 RTE Corporation and I cross-examine subject to the 2 0 objections that were previously made. I have very 21 few questions, Mr. Papageorge. 22 Do you have any knowledge if Monsanto 23 ever sold any PCBs fluids to RTE Corporation for 2 4 e1ectrica1 transformers, to be used in electrical 25 transformers? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059524 134 1 A. I do not . Q . Sir, isn't it true that the only sales 3 of Monsanto to RTE occurred in 1962 to your 4 knowledge? 5 A . There were shipments of samples but 6 there was no charge, so I cannot call it a sale. Q. Do you have any know1 edge a s to the 8 quantities of those shipments ? 9 A. The records indicate three gallons that 10 were sent to the RTE people over a period of time. 11 Q. Do you have any knowledge of what kind 12 of fluid those samples contained? 13 A . This is the Monsanto product referred to 14 as Aroclor 1221. 15 Q . And what is that Aroc1or, sir? 16 A . That is a PCB which is 21 percent by 1 7 weight of chlorine. 18 Q . Is it used in electrical transformers? 19 A . Not to my knowledge, no. 20 Q . Isn't it true that they're only used in 21 capacitors as opposed to transformers? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether RTE 24 was considered a consumer or -- of Monsanto? 25 A . 11 was -- CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059525 135 1 MR. WILCOX: Consumer, you mean 2 customer? 3 Q. (BY MS. MONTES) I'm sorry , a customer. 4 A . I have seen RTE listed on a list of 5 customers of RGBs. 6 Q . Sir, I believe that your previous -7 previous testimony was that you sent all those 8 letters marked as Exhibit 2, 3, 6, 7, and 8 to all 9 the customers of Monsanto's during the three prior 1 0 years to those letters? 11 A . That is correct. 12 Q . Is it possible that RTE was included in 13 that list of customers? 14 A. It is possible, yes. 15 Q. Even though the only shipment that 16 occurred to RTE was in 1962? 17 A. It is possible, yes. 18 MS. MONTES: Okay. I have no 19 further questions. 20 CROSS-EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. NETTLETON: 22 Q . Mr. Papageorge, my name is Paul 23 Nettleton representing Westinghouse Electric 24 Corporation. I just have a few mo r e que stions for 25 you . CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059526 136 1 You mentioned earlier in your testimony 2 about the development of analytical methods to 3 determine specific levels or detect ion levels of 4 PCBs in various media. Isn't it true, sir, that you 5 had no discussions with Westinghouse in the early 6 1970s concerning detection of various levels of PCBs 7 in minera 1 oil or oils as opposed to other media 8 such as water or soils? 9 A. I don't reca11 a discussion spec ific to 10 minera1 oils, that is correct . 11 Q . Sir, isn't it true that the primary 12 motivation behind the ANSI committee and the 13 adoption of the guidelines that we've discussed here 14 today was the electrical industry's recognition of 15 the environmental concerns being raised about PCBs 16 and the concern that if the industry itself did not 17 take vo1unta ry action to alleviate these concerns 18 that the industry stood to lose an extremely 19 valuable and beneficial product? 2 0 A . Yes. 21 Q . Sir, were -- were the utilities 22 represented on the ANSI C10 7 commi11 e e ? 23 A. Yes, they were. 24 Q. Were they represented from the beginning 2 5 and inception of that commi11 e e ? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059527 137 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. Do you recall which members represented 3 the utilities? 4 A. I remember very well Mr. Lengef eld, who 5 represented the Electric Power and Light Group. 6 Q . And what is that group? 7 A. As I understood it, it represented the 8 Edison Electric Institute and another trade group 9 which in turn represented the utilities. 10 Q. Was it expected by the members of the 11 committee that these representatives of the 1 2 utilities would convey the information they received 13 during these meetings to the utilities? 14 A. Yes, definitely,, 15 Q . Now you said -- I think you've 16 previously testified that FPL was a customer of 17 Monsanto's; is that correct? 18 A . That is correct. 1 9 Q, When you say a customer, does that mean 20 they purchased PCBs or askarel fluids from Monsanto? 21 A . Yes. 22 Q . And so would FPL have received those 23 1etters that -- that you previously discussed and I 24 be 1ieve have been marked as Exhibits 2, 3, 6, 7, and 25 8? CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ( 314 ) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059528 138 1 A . May I see Exhibits 2, 3, 7, and 8 ? MR. WILCOX: Let me just hand you 3 the whole package so you can look through them. 4 A. I am confused . Exhibit 7 is a copy of a -5 Q. (BY MR. NETTLETON) I apologize. 6 A. -- guide. I have 2, 3, and 8. 7 Q . Were those letters sent to FPL as a 8 customer of Mon santo? 9 A. The FP -- Florida Power & Light very 10 likely received copies of Exhibits 2 and 3. They 11 would not have received copies of Exhibit 8. 12 Q . If FPL had called your office or someone 13 at Monsanto and requested informat ion, would you 1 4 have provided any information they requested? 1 5 A . Oh , yes, definitely. 16 Q I n fact , do you recall any contact 17 directly by FPL by a Mr. Fair perhaps who requested 18 informat ion? 1 9 A . Yes . 20 Q . And did you provide information to FPL 21 when requested? 2 2 A . Yes . 2 3 Q . And when you provided that information, 2 4 did you give them the up-to-date information and 25 state of the knowledge of Monsanto concerning PCBs CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059529 13 9 1 and environmental issues at that time? 2 A . As best I remember, yes. 3 Q,, Do you recall when Mr. Fair had 4 contacted you requesting information? 5 A. 1973, something close to that. 6 Q. Sir, on Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 16, on the list of addressees in the right-hand colum n 8 third from the bottom, do you recognize the name of 9 Mr. Thue, T-h-u-e, as being a n employee of FPL? 10 A. I do . 11 Q . And, sir, when you were talking about 1 2 participation in the ANSI committee, you mentioned 1 3 that you spoke with a Mr. Harry Sheppard and a 1 4 Dr. S1oa t who you testified were employed by 15 Westinghouse; is that correct? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q . In your discussions with them, were they 18 helpful to you and to the other members of the 19 committee about Westinghouse1s knowledge concerning 2 0 PCBs and -- and any knowledge they had about PCBs 21 and entrance into the environment? 22 A. Oh, very much so, yeah. In fact, they 23 were among the leaders. 2 4 Q. Was Westinghouse under any compulsion by 25 law or regulation to join in or to volunteer any CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059530 14 0 1 inf orraation to this committee or to join the 2 committee? 3 A . No . 4 Q. And you also mentioned that you reviewed 5 some letters from various electrical manufacturer -6 electrical equipment manufacturers before they passed it along to customers; is that correct? 8 A. That is correct. 9 Q . And was one of those e1ectrica1 1 0 manufacturers Westinghouse? 11 A . Yes. 1 2 Q . Okay . Did you find that the information 13 they were passing along to their customers was 1 4 accurate and up to date ? 15 A . Yes. 16 MR. NETTLETON: I have nothing 17 further 18 MR. WILCOX: No redirect. 19 Thank you, Mr. Papageorge. 2 0 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 21 (Witness excused.) 22 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED BETWEEN COUNSEL THAT THE DEPOSITION MAY BE SIGNED 23 BEFORE ANY NOTARY PUBLIC. 24 25 1 CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314 ) 727-650 3 ..................... ...... WATER PCB-SD0000059531 141 1 I, WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, do hereby state that I have read the foregoing 3 questions and answers appearing in this transcript 4 of my deposition Page 8 through and including Page 5 140; that this is a true and accurate (corrected) 6 report of said answers given in response to the questions appearing herein. 8 9 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 10 11 CERTIFICATE 12 STATE OF MISSOURI ) ) SS 13 COUNTY OF ST. LOUIS ) 14 Before me personally appeared 15 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE to me known to be the person 16 described in and who executed the foregoing 17 ins t rume n t and acknowledged to and before me that he 18 executed the said instrument in the capacity and for 19 the purpose therein expressed. 2 0 WITNESS my hand and official 21 seal this day of , 1990 . 22 23 24 25 My Commis sion Expires: NOTARY PUBLIC CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ( 314 ) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059532 14 2 1 NOTARIAL CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF MISSOURI ) ) SS 3 COUNTY OF ST. LOUIS ) 4 I , JUNE M. FUNKHOUSER , a 5 Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public 6 in and for the County of St. Louis, State of 7 Missouri, duly commissioned, qua 1ified and 8 authorized to administer oaths and to take and 9 certify depositions, do certify that pursuant to 10 Notice and Subpoena in the civil cause now pending 11 and undetermined in the United States District Court 12 for the Southern District of Florida, Miami 13 Division, entitled FLORIDA POWER & LIGHT COMPANY, a 14 Florida corporation, et a 1 . vs. ALLIS-CHALMERS 15 CORPORATION, et a 1 . was attended at the offices of 16 Clayton Repo r ting Company, 111 S. Bemiston, Suite 17 124, in the County of St. Louis, State of Missouri, 18 on the 12th day of June, 1990. 19 Rudnick & Wolfe, 101 East 20 Kennedy B1vd . , Suite 2 0 0 0 , Tampa, Florida , attorney s 21 for the plaintiffs, by Mr. John W. Wilcox 22 Popham, Haik, Schnobrich & 23 Kaufman, Ltd., 410 0 One Centrust Financial Center , 24 10 0 S . E . Second Street, Miami, Florida, attorney s 25 for Westinghouse Electric, by Mr. Paul L. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. (314 ) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059533 14 3 1 Nett 1eton. 2 Mag ill & Lewis, P . A . , 7211 3 Southwest 62nd Avenue, Suite 200, Miami, Florida, 4 attorneys for RTE Corporation, by Ms. Ye 1va Montes. Foley & Lardner , Van Den Berg, 6 Gay, Burke, Wilson & Arkin, 111 North Orange Avenue, 7 Suite 18 0 0 , P.O. Box 2193, Or 1ando, Florida, 8 attorneys for Central Mo 1o ney, Inc., by Mr . David A. 9 Baker. 10 Dickinson, Wright , Moon, Van 11 Dusen & Freeman, 800 First National Building, 1 2 Detroit, Michigan, attorneys for Kuh1ma n Electric, 13 by Mr. Herbert G. Sparrow, III. 14 Cor 1ett, Killian, Obe r, 15 Hardeman, Me Intosh & Levi, 116 West Flagler Street, 16 Miami, Florida, attorneys for Al1is-Chalmers, by Mr. David F. Me Into sh. 18 Rumberger, Kirk, Caldwell, 19 Cabaniss, Burke & Wechsler, 11 East Pine Street, 20 P.O. Box 1873, Orlando, Florida, attorneys for 21 Genera 1 Electric, by Mr. Thomas M. Burke. 2 2 Smith, Helms, Mulliss & Moo re, 23 3 0 0 North Greene Street, Suite 1400, P.O. Box 21927 , 2 4 Greensboro, North Carolina, attorneys for Monsanto 25 and the deponent, by Mr. Gerard H. Davidson, Jr. CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ( 314 ) 727-6 5 03 WATER PCB-SD0000059534 14 4 1 The witness, WILLIAM B. 2 PAPAGEORGE, being of sound mind, came before me, was 3 duly sworn by me to testify the truth , the whole 4 truth and nothing but the truth in the case 5 aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown in the 6 foregoing transcript, said testimony being by me reported in stenotypy and caused to be transcribed 8 into typewriting under my supervision; that the 9 foregoing 140 pages correctly set forth the 10 testimony of the aforementioned witness, WILLIAM B. 11 PAPAGEORGE, together with the questions propounded 12 by counsel , and remarks and objections of counse1 13 thereto, and is in all respects a full, true, 1 4 correct, and comp1ete t r a n s c ript of the questions 15 propounded to and the answers given by said witness; 16 that the said testimony, so transcribed, was 1 7 subscribed to by him in the ___ of 18 , State of Missouri, on the _____________________ day of _____ 19 , 1990 . 20 I further certify that I am not 2 1 of counsel nor attorney for either of the parties to 22 said suit, nor related to, nor interested in any of 23 the parties or their attorneys. 24 25 CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ( 314 ) 727-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059535 145 1 WITNESS my hand and notarial 2 seal a t St. Louis, Missouri, this day of 3 , 1990 . 4 My Commission Expires: June 2 4 , 1991 5 6 7 REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER and 8 NOTARY PUBLIC in and for the County of St. Louis, State of Missouri. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CLAYTON REPORTING COMPANY, LTD. ( 314 ) 7 2 7-6503 WATER PCB-SD0000059536