Document ymOMnooDdqvLK81Zkv1OkO634

SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA IN AND FOR THE CITY AND COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO AYDIN CORPORATION, a Corporation, ) Plaintiff vs COMMERCIAL UNION INSURANCE COMPANY, et al.. Defendants No. 857826 DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE Taken on behalf of the Defendant Commercial Union Insurance Company December l"? iqqi nonamVio]; 19, 1991 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES COURT REPORTERS FRISCO BUILDING 906 OLIVE STREET ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63101 PHONE: 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069360 2 1 2 3 INDEX OF QUESTIONERS 4 QUESTIONS BY: PAGE NO. 5 Mr. Centola Mr. Summers 6 4 7 8 9 10 DEPOSITION OF WITNESS, WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, 11 produced, sworn and examined on the 17th and 19th of 12 December, 1991, between the hours of eight o'clock in 13 the forenoon and six o'clock in the afternoon of that 14 day, at the offices of Kohn, Shands, Elbert, 15 Gianoulakis & Giljum, One Mercantile Center, St. Louis, 16 Missouri (December 17, 1991) and at the offices of 17 Husch & Eppenberger, 100 North Broadway, St. Louis, 18 Missouri (December 19, 1991), before TARA R. RILEY, a 19 Notary Public and Shorthand Reporter within and for the 20 State of Missouri, in a certain cause now pending in 21 the Superior Court of the State of California, in and 22 for the City and County of San Francisco, wherein Aydin 23 Corporation is Plaintiff and Commercial Union Insurance 24 Company is Defendant. 25 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069361 3 1 APPEARANCES 2 3 Aydin Corporation was represented by: 4 BROBECK, PHLEGER & HARRISON Spear Street Tower 5 One Market Plaza San Francisco, California 94105 6 by: Mr. Harry Jacobs Summers 7 8 Commercial Union Insurance Company was represented by: 9 RIVKIN, RADLER, BAYH, HART & KREMER Eab Plaza 10 Uniondale, New York 11556-0111 by: Mr. Gary D. Centola 11 12 William Papageorqe was represented by: 13 HUSCH & EPPENBERGER 100 North Broadway 14 13th Floor St. Louis, Missouri 63102 15 by: Mr. Thomas M. Carney 16 17 Videoqrapher 18 DEPOVISION, LTD. 2129 Barrett Station Road 19 Suite 104 St. Louis, Missouri 63131 20 by: Ms. Kelly Bennett 21 22 Stenographer 23 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES 906 Olive Street, Suite 920 24 St. Louis, Missouri 63101 by: Ms. Tara R. Riley 25 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069362 4 1 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 2 between Counsel for the Plaintiff and Counsel for the 3 Defendant that this deposition may be taken by Tara R. 4 Riley, Notary Public and Shorthand Reporter, thereafter 5 transcribed into typewriting, with the signature of the 6 witness being required. 7 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, 8 of lawful age, having been produced, sworn and examined 9 on the part of the Defendant Commercial Union Insurance 10 Company, testified as follows: 11 EXAMINATION 12 QUESTIONS BY MR. CENTOLA: 13 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 1 marked for 14 identification by the court reporter.) 15 Q Mr. Papageorge, good morning. 16 A Good morning. 17 Q My name is Gary Centola, and I represent the 18 Commercial Union Insurance Company. Today we're here 19 for your deposition, to ask you a number of questions 20 about your past employment at Monsanto Company. If, 21 during the course of my deposition, you don't 22 understand one of my questions or don't hear it, please 23 feel free to let me know, and I'll repeat it or have it 24 read back to you. Is that understood, sir? 25 A Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069363 5 1 Q And I will assume that you understand my 2 questions unless you tell me so. Is that okay, sir? 3 A That's a good assumption, yes. 4 Q Okay. Now, if at any time during the course 5 of the deposition you need to break for some reason or 6 speak to your lawyer, please feel free to do so, and we 7 will give you that opportunity. 8 Mr. Papageorge, will you please state your 9 full name for the record? 10 A William B. Papageorge. 11 Q Okay. And where do you presently live, Mr. 12 Papageorge? 13 A In St. Louis County in Missouri. 14 MR. SUMMERS: Mr. Centola, may I make a brief 15 statement before we go on? 16 MR. CENTOLA: Sure. 17 MR. SUMMERS: My name is Harry Summers, sir, 18 I represent Aydin Corporation in this case. And your 19 counsel may have already explained this, but when Mr. 20 Centola asks you questions, I'd appreciate it if you 21 could attempt to pause before you answer, because my 22 job, part of my job is to make objections where 23 necessary. And again, he may have already explained 24 this to you, but it makes it easier for me to do that 25 if you could try to pause before you answer. That's TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069364 6 1 all I ask. 2 A I'll try. 3 Q (By Mr. Centola) What's your date of birth, 4 sir? 5 A September 7, 1922. 6 Q I want to show you what I've already had 7 marked as Papageorge 1 for identification, which 8 purports to be a subpoena on deposition of Mr. William 9 Papageorge. Will you please take a look at that? Have 10 you seen that before, sir? 11 A Yes, this was a subpoena served on me at 12 home. 13 Q And are you here testifying pursuant to that 14 subpoena? 15 A Yes, I am. 16 Q Mr. Papageorge, are you presently employed? 17 A I am not. 18 Q What I'd like to do first is take a little 19 bit of your background so we get to know you a little 20 bit better. When did you graduate from high school, 21 sir? 22 A 1940. 23 Q And did you go to college, sir? 24 A I did. 25 Q Where was that? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069365 7 1 A Washington University in St. Louis. 2 Q And did you receive a degree, sir? 3 A I did. 4 Q In what? 5 A Bachelor of Science in chemical engineering 6 in 1943. 7 Q Did you do any post-graduate work, sir? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And where was that? 10 A The same university. 11 Q Did you receive a post-graduate degree? 12 A I did. 13 Q What was that? 14 A Master of Science in chemical engineering. 15 Q And when did you receive that degree? 16 A 1947. 17 Q After you received yourMasters in chemical 18 engineering, did you take employment, sir? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And where was that? 21 A Phillips PetroleumCompany inBartelsville, 22 Oklahoma. 23 Q And what was your position there, sir? 24 A The initial assignment was as a research 25 engineer in their Research Department. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069366 8 1 Q And how long were you there, sir? 2 A Total time with Phillips? 3 Q Yes. 4 A Four years. 1951 is whenI left. 5 Q Where did you go after that, sir? 6 A The Monsanto Company. 7 Q And where was the Monsanto Company you went 8 to? 9 A I was employed at their plant in St. Louis on 10 Second Street, St. Louis. The plant referred to as the 11 Queeny plant. Q-U-E-E-N-Y. 12 Q And when you began your employment in 1951 at 13 Monsanto, what position were you in? 14 A I was a process design engineer. 15 Q Just briefly, what is that? 16 A I was assigned the task of designing 17 equipment to be used in the manufacture of chemicals. 18 Q And how long did you hold that position, sir? 19 A About two years. 20 Q And what happened on or about 1953? 21 A I was assigned as a supervisor of one of the 22 plant's units that manufactured chemicals. 23 Q Same location? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. And how long did you hold that TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069367 9 1 position? 2 A About a couple years, year and a half, couple 3 years. 4 Q Okay. What happened after that? 5 A I was assigned to another producing unit as 6 the supervisor of that unit. 7 Q Same location? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Was that a lateral move or was that a 10 promotion? 11 A Oh, I would suggest it might have been a 12 promotion. It was a bigger department. 13 Q In 1953, were any of the chemicals that you 14 were dealing with polychlorinated biphenyls? 15 A No. 16 Q In 1955 were they? 17 A No. 18 Q And how long were you with this other 19 producing unit? 20 A As I remember, that went to about 1956 or so. 21 Q What happened then? 22 A I was appointed as a maintenance supervisor 23 in the, at that same plant in their Maintenance 24 Department. 25 Q What'd you do as maintenance supervisor? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069368 10 1 A I supervised a team consisting of a foreman 2 and various types of mechanics that were involved with 3 the installation of equipment used in the manufacture 4 of chemicals. 5 Q So you maintained the equipment? 6 A This particular unit installed new equipment, 7 but it was part of the Maintenance Department. 8 Q And how long were you in that position? 9 A About a couple years. These time periods may 10 not be exact, but they are approximations. 11 Q That's fine. What was your next position? 12 A I became the superintendent of the 13 Maintenance Department. 14 Q Same division? 15 A Same plant, same department, yes. 16 Q And did you take another position after that 17 at some time? 18 A Following the maintenance superintendency, I 19 was appointed as a superintendent in the plant's 20 Engineering Department, which was referred to as the 21 Technical Services Department. 22 Q Briefly, what did you do there? 23 A I supervised a team of, oh, eight to twelve 24 engineers, plus three to six technicians who were 25 assigned engineering responsibilities to design new TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069369 11 1 equipment, improve the processes, come up with new 2 ideas that could be used in the plant. 3 Q This would be equipment, again, used to 4 produce various chemicals? 5 A Correct. 6 Q Okay. And what time frame were you the 7 superintendent of the Technical Services Department? 8 A Up until about 1963, if I remember 9 correctly. '62, '63. 10 Q All right. And what happened in 1962 or 11 1963? 12 A I was then appointed as a general 13 superintendent at that same plant. 14 Q Mm-hmm. 15 A Of a unit in that plant that concerned itself 16 with warehousing, receiving, distribution, utilities 17 generation and distribution. In other words, services 18 to the manufacturing departments other than the 19 maintenance service. 20 Q I'm a little confused as to what you mean by 21 that. Can you tell me what you mean by that again? 22 A By my last statement? 23 Q Yeah. 24 A Well, the manufacturing units, in order to 25 make the chemical they're assigned, must have steam. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069370 12 1 electricity, the raw material, the starting material, 2 all of these came from that unit I just described. 3 Q And how big a unit was that in terms of 4 employees? 5 A These are not going to be exact numbers. 6 There were about 15 supervisors, 30 foremen, and a 7 couple hundred shipping people, receiving people, truck 8 drivers and so on. 9 Q And as general superintendent, you were the 10 top man on the totem pole, so to speak? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Okay. Did you take a different position 13 after this? 14 A Yes. In 1964, I was assigned to a plant 15 located in Sauget, Illinois, and I was appointed one of 16 the general superintendents of manufacturing. 17 Q And what did the plant in Sauget, Illinois, 18 manufacture? 19 A Several hundred different chemicals. 20 Q You said you were one of the general 21 superintendents of manufacturing? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Did you have a specific line that you were in 24 charge of? 25 A Yes. I had, as I recall, about a dozen TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069371 13 1 products that were assigned to me. 2 Q And what was your, how would you describe 3 your position as general superintendent of 4 manufacturing? 5 A I was responsible for a given number of 6 chemicals to produce, and I was expected to produce 7 them safely, of proper quality, at a targeted cost, on 8 time, and make certain that my personnel were properly 9 trained to do this, and that I, whatever I did fit in 10 with the rest of that location. 11 Q Were any of the chemicals that were part of 12 your charge to have manufactured polychlorinated 13 biphenyls or containing polychlorinated biphenyls? 14 A Not on that assignment, no. 15 Q Okay. Were there, prior to that assignment, 16 had you been involved in the manufacture of, let's call 17 them PCB's, polychlorinated biphenyls? 18 A Not in the manufacture, no. 19 Q Had you had any experience with PCB's up 20 until your position in Sauget, Illinois? 21 A Yes, I had some experience with those 22 materials, PCB's. 23 Q What was your experience up to that date? 24 A Well, there was one type of experience that 25 involved the use of PCB's in electrical equipment. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069372 14 1 Q Right. 2 A And I became involved with those in two 3 situations. One in the maintenance of that equipment 4 as maintenance superintendent. 5 Q Okay. 6 A And the other as the user of that equipment 7 in the distribution of electricity in the plant to the 8 using departments. 9 Q Okay. 10 A The other exposure or involvement was with 11 this assignment at the Queeny plant, where I provided 12 services to the manufacturing units. One of the 13 departments that were under my supervision was the 14 Blending Department, which was involved in the blending 15 of ingredients to produce industrial hydraulic fluids, 16 some of which contained PCB's. 17 Q So your involvement essentially was just in 18 the fact that the PCB's were used as ingredients to 19 these hydraulic fluids? 20 A At that time, yes, sir. 21 Q Okay, let's go back to Sauget, Illinois. How 22 long were you there? 23 A About a year, year and a half. 24 Q Take us to 1966, or 19 -- 25 A '65. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069373 15 1 Q '65. And did you have a reassignment at that 2 time? 3 A Yes, I did. 4 Q And where was that reassignment to? 5 A I was assigned to the Anniston, Alabama plant 6 as plant manager. 7 Q Anniston is spelled? 8 A A-N-N-I-S-T-O-N. 9 Q How would you describe your position as plant 10 manager? 11 A I guess the simplest way is I was responsible 12 for everything that took place at that plant that 13 represented Monsanto. 14 Q All right. What was it that that plant 15 manufactured? 16 A They manufactured about a dozen different 17 chemicals. 18 Q Anything else? 19 A That's all they did was make chemicals, so -- 20 Q All right. Were any of the chemicals -- 21 strike that. Were any of the ingredients used in 22 manufacturing those chemicals PCB's? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q Okay. Can you tell me which chemicals those 25 were? What they were used for? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069374 16 1 A The chemicals that included PCB's as an 2 ingredient were the fluids used in electrical equipment 3 as dielectrics, and some of those were blends that 4 included as a component PCB's. 5 Q These are dielectric fluids? 6 A Yes. 7 Q What was the ultimate use of dielectric 8 fluids that came out of Anniston's plant? 9 A They were used as an insulating, non 10 conducting liquid in electrical equipment which 11 included transformers, capacitors, motor switches. 12 Q Were any of the uses for those -- I'm sorry, 13 were you done with your answer? 14 A There are a couple more that I can't recall 15 at the moment. But I've given you the principal uses. 16 Q Were any of the uses of the PCB containing 17 fluids that were manufactured at Anniston for 18 noncontained equipment? Plasticizers or the like? Or 19 were these all ultimately to go to transformers and 20 capacitors? 21 A You are referring, if I understand your 22 question, to the blended materials? 23 Q Right. 24 A None of those blended materials produced at 25 the Anniston plant were used for anything other than TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069375 17 1 the electrical equipment use. 2 Q Fine. Did those blended materials have trade 3 names? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. Let me give you a couple names and see 6 if they used those. Askarel? 7 A That's not a trade name, that's a generic 8 trade used by -- generic name used by the industry. 9 Q Okay. Was that a name given to these fluids? 10 A No. 11 Q Aroclors? 12 A Not given -- I want to correct that. That 13 expression Askarel was used to describe these fluids, 14 but it was not a trademark used with the fluids. 15 Q Understood. Thanks. Wereany other names 16 used to describe these fluids? 17 A Yes, there were. 18 Q Do you recall any of them? 19 A There was, at the plant, wepackaged and 20 labeled using trade names Inerteen, which was a 21 Westinghouse trademark, and Pyranol, P-Y-R-A-N-O-L, 22 which was the General Electric trademark. 23 Q And Inerteen and Pyranol were also dielectric 24 fluids containing PCB's? 25 A Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069376 18 1 Q Okay. Some of these questions seem obvious 2 to you, Mr. Papageorge, but I'm doing it for the 3 record. 4 A I understand. 5 Q Okay. Did you ever hear the term Aroclor? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Okay. What is thetermAroclor? 8 A That is Monsanto's trademark for mixtures of 9 chemicals of the same chemical family that are used in 10 many, many applications. They are not blends of the 11 kind we spoke of earlier. 12 Q Inerteen and Pyranol were blends? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Aroclor is not a blend? 15 A That is correct. 16 Q When you say "blend," I'm not certain I 17 understand. Do you mean that there were other 18 chemicals in addition to PCB's in it? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q How about Aroclor, are there other chemicals 21 in addition to PCB's? 22 A There are some Aroclors that are not PCB's. 23 Q Okay. 24 A But those that are PCB's are entirely PCB's. 25 Q And Inerteen and Pyranol, what other TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069377 19 1 chemicals were used, do you recall? 2 A Yes. There, some of them contained 3 trichlorobenzene or tetrachlorobenzene, or a mixture 4 of the two chlorinated benzenes, plus some additives in 5 very small amounts that were added to make these 6 mixtures more stable, not deteriorate. 7 Q Now, let's go back to Askarel. Is Askarel a 8 blend? 9 A It doesn't have to be. 10 Q Okay. That's just a generic name for -- 11 A It's a generic name used by the manufacturers 12 and users of electrical equipment to describe fluids in 13 that equipment that are fire resistant. They could be 14 PCB's and they were, or they could be other materials. 15 Q So you can used term Askarel to describe an 16 Aroclor or a Pyranol or an Inerteen; is that correct? 17 A And any other chemical that the industry 18 decides to use that is fire resistant. 19 Q Okay. How long did you stay at the Anniston, 20 Alabama plant? 21 A Until the end of 1969. 22 Q Okay. And at that time, did you move back to 23 St. Louis? 24 A I did. 25 Q Before we get to St. Louis, I want to ask you TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069378 20 1 one or two more questions about Alabama. In your 2 position as plant manager, did you have any involvement 3 in the disposal of or cleaning up of PCB containing 4 chemicals? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Okay. What was your experience? Let's start 7 with the disposal of PCB's. 8 A The Anniston plant had its own landfill on 9 its own property in which materials that were no longer 10 recoverable or usable were disposed, including wastes 11 from the PCB operations. 12 Q Both solid and liquid? 13 A Solid and liquid, yes, sir. 14 Q And just for definitional purposes, when we 15 talk about solid PCB waste, what are we talking about? 16 A Oh, for example, sawdust that is used to soak 17 up a spill, or sand, or soil that had been exposed or 18 on which materials like PCB's would be dumped or 19 spilled. It could include clothing, contaminated 20 clothing, or rags that are used to wipe the equipment, 21 or even some, some of the equipment. Pieces of pipe 22 and old pumps and the like. 23 Q And liquid waste would be? 24 A Liquid would be, any free flowing fluid that 25 contained even a little bit of PCB's would be TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069379 21 1 considered a PCB liquid waste. 2 Q Okay. Were you involved at all at the plant 3 with containing spills or the cleanup of PCB's? 4 A Oh, yes. 5 Q Tell me what your involvement was, what the 6 plant -- strike that. What did the plant do towards 7 containing spills? 8 A They would absorb as much -- well, first, 9 depending on the size of the spill. If it was a major 10 spill, they would use pumps and hoses to suck up the 11 material and put in the proper tank. If it's a minor 12 one, we'd use, as I said earlier, sand or sawdust to 13 soak up the material. A real small one, of course, a 14 rag might well do the job. Once it was under control 15 and collected, it would be taken to the in-plant 16 landfill. 17 Q Were PCB wastes segregated out from other 18 wastes at that point in time? 19 A No. 20 Q Okay. 1969, you moved to St. Louis; is that 21 correct? 22 A Well, officially, it was the first of January 23 of 1970. 24 Q Okay. What was the reason for you going to 25 St. Louis? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069380 22 1 A I was given a new assignment and a new 2 position entitled Manager Environmental Control to help 3 Monsanto in the evolving PCB environmental issue. 4 Q Did someone from St. Louis seek you out, or 5 did you seek out that position? 6 A Well, they asked me if I would interview for 7 the job, which I did, and then I was selected. 8 Q Do you remember who it was who interviewed 9 you? 10 A Yes. There were two individuals. 11 Q Who was that? 12 A They were Mr. Howard Bergen and Mr. James 13 Springgate. S-P-R-I-N-G-G-A-T-E. 14 Q You made reference to the evolving PCB 15 issue. What was the evolving PCB issue at that time? 16 A I'll try to describe it. PCB's were being 17 found in environmental samples by laboratories 18 throughout the industrial world. Initially, there was 19 some question as to whether the material identified as 20 a PCB was truly a PCB. As time went on, the evidence 21 was convincing that it was. The question then became 22 one of what type of PCB is it? Where is it being found 23 and in what quantities is it being found? What harm, 24 if any, is it creating? So when I use the word 25 "evolving," I'm describing the evolving state of the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069381 23 1 science that would help us understand the PCB and its 2 impact on the environment. 3 Q So it's fair to say, then, when you went over 4 to St. Louis, you had to familiarize yourself with the, 5 what impact, if any, PCB may have on the environment? 6 A That was one of my assignments, yes, sir. 7 Q Was part of your assignments to keep abreast 8 of toxicity studies that were being done? 9 A Oh, yes. 10 Q Was part of your assignments uses and 11 disposals of PCB's? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Was part of your assignment considerations 14 concerning uses of PCB's? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Meaning whether they're going to go into 17 closed capacitors or other kinds of uses; is that 18 correct? 19 A That is correct. 20 Q When you got to St. Louis, can you tell me 21 what your responsibility was with respect to your 22 position as, and I'm sorry. Manager of Environmental 23 Control? 24 A My responsibility was one of being as 25 knowledgeable as I could of all of the information in TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069382 24 1 existence and being generated regarding PCB's, and 2 being able to communicate this to anyone that raised 3 the question; or if not capable of responding, I was in 4 a position to know where to get an answer that was 5 beyond my expertise or training. So I guess I would 6 describe it as being a communications center regarding 7 PCB's. 8 Q Now, Monsanto, back in '69 and '70, had a 9 number of different groups with different functions. 10 For instance, marketing, sales, manufacturing, et 11 cetera; is that correct? 12 A That is correct. 13 Q Was it your position to coordinate your 14 effort among all of the different groups? 15 A Certainly. Within Monsanto. 16 Q Within Monsanto? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q So is it fair to say that you reached out and 19 communicated with people in marketing administration 20 regarding PCB development? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And sales groups as well? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And I would assume your coordinating 25 responsibility involved the manufacturing people and TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069383 25 1 research and development? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And did it involve legal and labeling people 4 as well? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Did it involve publicrelationspeople and 7 advertising people? 8 A Public relations, yes. Advertising, I don't 9 ever recall dealing with that particular group. 10 Q How about shipping and distribution? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And did you have a medical staff at Monsanto? 13 A Certainly, yes. 14 Q And did your involvement include themas 15 well? 16 A Yes. 17 Q What is the labeling group in Monsanto? 18 A It was a group that was assigned to our 19 corporate Transportation Department whose duty was to 20 act primarily as a custodian or librarian of all labels 21 ever published and used by Monsanto, and also to 22 coordinate the activities for the design and printing 23 of new labels and their distribution to the using, 24 packaging plants. 25 Q Okay. Now, what was the function of the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069384 26 1 medical group back at Monsanto at that time? 2 MR. CARNEY: You're talking about '69, '70? 3 Q (By Mr. Centola) '69, '70. 4 A Their overall function? 5 Q Well, let me ask you this. When you 6 coordinated your efforts with medical concerning PCB's, 7 what kind of communications went back and forth between 8 you and them? 9 A Initially, of course, I was brought up to 10 date on their knowledge and experience regarding PCB's 11 through many decades. Following that, I was privileged 12 to sit in on some of their planning discussions 13 regarding the progress of tests under way relating to 14 PCB's and their impact on test animals, and also in the 15 planning of new programs, new tests, regarding the 16 effect of PCB's on animals, birds, fish, and so on. 17 That, I think, pretty well describes the program. 18 Q Did the medical people disseminate that 19 information to management of Monsanto, their findings? 20 A Certainly. 21 Q Did they disseminate it to customers as well? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And was that 1969, 1970? 24 A It was true in 1970. That doesn't mean it 25 started in 1969 and '70. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069385 27 1 Q Right. 2 A That was an ongoing policy of the Medical 3 Department to share with the user of the material, 4 whether it be PCB's or any chemical. The information 5 that our Medical Department had. 6 Q So it would be part of the custom and 7 practice of Monsanto's Medical Department to share 8 whatever information they had about a chemical to its 9 customers? 10 A Yes. 11 Q You mentioned a couple names earlier, Howard 12 Bergen. What was his position in 1970? 13 A He was the business director of the 14 functional products business group. 15 Q And Mr. Springgate? 16 A He was the businessdirector of the 17 plasticizers business group. 18 Q Was Mr. Berger more involved with fluids 19 opposed to plasticizers? 20 A Yes. 21 Q What is a plasticizer? We've used the term 22 before. 23 A It was a material added to plastics to make 24 the final product flexible such as garden hoses, as an 25 example, they wouldn't be brittle, they would flex. Or TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069386 28 1 added, say, even to rubber tires, to make them flex so 2 they would perform better. 3 Q And the fluids that Mr. Bergen managed would 4 be the Aroclors, Pyranol, Inerteen, Askarel? 5 A The fluids would include those you described, 6 you mentioned. 7 Q Okay. Thank you. Who did you report to, by 8 the way, when you began your position as, I'm sorry 9 again. Manager of Environmental Control? 10 A To Mr. Bergen. 11 Q Did you have staff working for you? 12 A No. 13 Q A secretary? 14 A Part time. I used Mr. Bergen's secretary, 15 and then I was assigned a part time later. 16 Q As part of your role of Manager of 17 Environmental Control, did you impart your knowledge 18 to, concerning the possible potential toxicity of PCB's 19 or its impact on the environment, to the sales group or 20 public relations, et cetera, within Monsanto? 21 A There were occasions when I would hold 22 discussion sessions with representatives of the groups 23 you described, but that function was generally 24 fulfilled by a representative out of the Medical 25 Department. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069387 29 1 Q Do you know who that person was? 2 A It was primarily Mr. Elmer Wheeler. 3 Q Was he a doctor? 4 A No. 5 Q When did you become aware of the presence of 6 Aroclors in the environment? 7 A I was first informed in about June of 1969. 8 Q And how did you come about that information? 9 A My supervisor, during one of his frequent 10 trips to the plant, mentioned that he was informed of 11 some environmental issue relating to the PCB's, and he 12 personally didn't know an awful lot of the details, but 13 he also told me that as soon as he got more 14 information, he would tell me more. 15 Q Who was that supervisor, do you recall? 16 A Yes, sir, that was Mr. Raymond Stratmeyer, 17 S-T-R-A-T-M-E-Y-E-R. 18 Q Was he out of St. Louis? 19 A Yes. 20 Q When did you find out more? 21 A I believe the first meaningful update that I 22 got was early December of 1969 when I was approached by 23 Mr. Stratmeyer regarding my interest in interviewing 24 for the assignment. And at that time, he gave me a 25 little bit more information regarding the findings of TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069388 30 1 the laboratories and PCB's and environmental samples. 2 Q Do you have a recollection what those 3 findings were? 4 MR. SUMMERS: I think I'll object, vague and 5 ambiguous. 6 Q (By Mr. Centola) If you recall. 7 A He mentioned the studies that came out of 8 Sweden, he mentioned the type of PCB that the 9 laboratories were reporting, he mentioned that Monsanto 10 had its own research program to develop the analytical 11 methodology, and that program was confirming that these 12 findings were indeed PCB's, that animal studies were 13 under way to determine whether or not any harm could 14 result and at what levels of exposure, and that the 15 business groups needed more help in communicating all 16 of these. That was his reason for asking me to 17 interview for that new job. 18 Q Did there come a time when you became more 19 familiar with the Swedish studies that you just 20 mentioned? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And when was that? 23 A I don't know that it happened any particular 24 moment. It was a matter of a period of time in which I 25 picked up a little bit more information each time. The TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069389 31 1 principal tutorial I got was from Dr. Robert Keller, 2 who brought me up to date on the analytical methodology 3 and the procedure used by the Swedish laboratories and 4 their findings. Later that year in -- 5 Q What year is that? 6 A 1970 when I first came on that new job. And 7 in April or May of 1970, I was with a group that 8 visited the laboratory in Stockholm, and picked up a 9 little bit more information from Dr. Widmark, 10 W-I-D-M-A-R-K, so that added a little bit more to my 11 understanding of what the laboratory did. 12 Q Was Dr. Robert Keller an employee of 13 Monsanto? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And he was with the Medical Department? 16 A No, he is a chemical doctor. He is the head 17 of Monsanto's research group that works on analytical, 18 chemical analytical procedures. 19 Q Did Dr. Keller inform you as to whether he 20 was imparting his information to people other than 21 yourself? 22 A Oh, yes. 23 Q Who was he giving his information to? 24 MR. CARNEY: You're talking about this 25 analytical? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069390 32 1 Q (By Mr. Centola) Yes, the analytical 2 methodology, the fact that the Swedish studies were 3 finding PCB's in the environment. 4 A Dr. Keller was communicating that type of 5 information to his peers, other research analytical 6 chemists, in government laboratories and university 7 laboratories. And, of course, through his team of 8 chemists, he was communicating to individuals within 9 Monsanto such as marketing people, engineering people, 10 manufacturing people. 11 Q Why was he imparting that information to 12 marketing people? 13 A Some of the marketing representatives were 14 getting inquiries, especially from the bigger companies 15 that had their own chemical laboratories. And the 16 marketing people, salespeople, would contact either Dr. 17 Keller or his team members regarding the availability 18 of documents that would describe the procedure used, or 19 getting samples of the pure material that they can use 20 in their analysis, that's the kind of thing that the 21 marketing people would come back with. 22 Q So that was part of Mr. Kell -- Dr. Keller's 23 employment, to keep the marketing people informed of 24 these matters? 25 A Yes, sir. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069391 33 1 Q Did you ever hear of Soren Jensen? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q Was he the man who wrote the Swedish study 4 that you're referring to? 5 A He was one of the authors. 6 Q Do you have a recollection of what the 7 Swedish studies found? 8 A I don't recall everything, of course, but I 9 do recall that they found what they initially described 10 as a PCB, and later confirmed in such samples as pine 11 needles from a forest, they went to a museum and took a 12 feather off of a preserved eagle and found PCB's in 13 that feather. They had clippings of an infant's head, 14 hair, and found PCB's in it. There were more examples 15 given that I don't recall at the moment. 16 Q Was it concerned, at that time, that PCB's 17 were, in fact, persistent in the environment? 18 MR. SUMMERS: I'll object to that, vague and 19 ambiguous, calling for speculation. 20 Q (By Mr. Centola) Do you remember what 21 concerns, if any, of those studies? 22 A Concerns were, many of the time, first of 23 all, is it really a PCB? 24 Q Right. 25 A Can it really be identified with confidence TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069392 34 1 that it's a PCB? If so, are the amounts that it 2 reported reproducible? 3 Q Right. 4 A If so, then the concern became on how can an 5 industrial chemical end up in a pine needle or in an 6 eagle in a museum? Was that eagle treated with some 7 kind of adhesive or dye that had the PCB's in it, or 8 did it get it before it was mounted and displayed? So 9 the concerns were many. The findings raised more 10 questions than it answered. 11 Q And when you went to Europe, one of your 12 charges was to find out as much as you can about the 13 PCB's that were found in the environment? Or the fact 14 that these chemicals at least suggested the PCB's in 15 the environment were, in fact, there? 16 A That was one of the objectives, yes. 17 Q You said you went with Dr. Keller and Dr. 18 Widmark to Europe? 19 MR. CARNEY: I think Widmark was there. 20 Q (By Mr. Centola) I'm sorry, who did you go 21 with to Europe? 22 A I went with Dr. Keller and Elmer Wheeler. 23 Q When you returned from Europe, did you do 24 anything with the information you acquired? 25 A Oh, yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069393 35 1 Q What did you do with it? 2 A Well, primarily, I used that information in 3 discussing the status of the PCB issue with either 4 individuals or groups. Preferably with groups where I 5 had a bigger audience. 6 Q Within Monsanto or without? 7 A Both. 8 Q Okay. We'll get to that in a moment. Did 9 you ever hear of something called the Yusho incident? 10 Y-U-S-H-0. 11 A Yes, I have. 12 Q What is the Yusho incident? 13 A The term describes an incident that occurred 14 in Japan in which an oil which was extracted from rice 15 bran and used for cooking and human consumption was 16 contaminated with PCB's in a system that was used to 17 distill off the usable oil. The system had developed a 18 leak, and the PCB's they used in that system which, 19 incidentally, were of Japanese origin, got into that 20 oil, contaminated it, and the producer of that oil 21 continued to sell it to the community. 22 Q And what happened as a result of that, or 23 what was the suspicion? 24 A There were many individuals that became ill 25 as a result of ingesting or eating the oil. They TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069394 36 1 displayed many, many symptoms. 2 Q When did that incident take place? 3 A It was in 1968. 4 Q And when did you learn about it? 5 A When I came on this new assignment in January 6 of 1970. 7 Q And was Mr. Wheeler and Mr. Keller aware of 8 this incident? 9 A Mr. Wheeler was the one that informed me. I 10 do not know if Mr. Keller knew it or not. 11 Q Okay. I should say Dr. Keller. Before we go 12 on to the next topic, I just want to step back just for 13 a second and go through some definitional things that 14 are going to be coming up during the course of my 15 deposition with you so we understand our terms. We've 16 already talked about Aroclors, okay? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Now, have you ever heard the expression 19 Aroclor 1242? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Aroclor 1254? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Aroclor 1260? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Aroclor 1016? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069395 37 1 A Yes. 2 Q Aroclor 1264? 3 A Would you repeat that? 4 Q Is there a 1264? 5 A No. 6 Q Okay. So we have 1242, 1254, 1260, and then 7 Aroclor 1016, you've heard of all of those? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Can you tell me what the significance is of 10 the last two numbers in each of those digits of those 11 numbers I've given you? 12 A The last two numbers represents the percent 13 by weight of chlorine that is present in that total 14 mixture. 15 Q It's fair to say that the higher the last two 16 digits, the more chlorine in the total mixture? 17 A Yes. 18 MR. CARNEY: Are you asking about 1016 as 19 well or just the 1254, 1242? 20 Q (By Mr. Centola) Fair comment. Fair comment. 21 Just talk, we're talking about just the 12 numbers now, 22 not the 1016. 23 A That was what I understood, yes, sir. 24 Q Okay. What is the significance in terms of 25 biodegradability of the number of chlorine molecules? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069396 38 1 A It's been determined with some testing that 2 the higher that number is, the more resistant that 3 particular PCB is to degradation. 4 Q So following through what you just told me, 5 Aroclor 1260 would be more resistant to degradation 6 than Aroclor 1242? 7 A As a composite within each of those. There 8 are types of PCB's present in both that are resistant, 9 but as a whole, the 1260 mixture is more resistant than 10 the whole 1242 mixture. 11 Q We also mentioned Aroclor 1016? 12 A Yes. 13 Q I take it that that, that the last two digits 14 in that number does not represent the percentage by 15 weight of chlorinated molecules? 16 A That is correct. 17 Q What is the significance of Aroclor 1016? 18 A Aroclor 1016 is an Aroclor 1242 that has been 19 distilled such that the higher chlorinated types of 20 PCB's are left in the pot, if you will, and separated 21 from the lower chlorinated. The intent there is to 22 produce a, an industrial PCB that is more apt to 23 degrade and still be used for the uses that 1242 was 24 designed for. 25 Q Thank you. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069397 39 1 MR. CARNEY: Is this an appropriate time, 2 anybody need a break? 3 MR. CENTOLA: Yeah, why don't we take a short 4 break. 5 (A brief recess was held at this point.) 6 Q (By Mr. Centola) All right, I'm marking as 7 Papageorge Exhibit 2 a three-page document dated 8 March 3, 1969, purported to be prepared by Elmer P. 9 Wheeler, Manager Environmental Health. Mr. Papageorge, 10 I want you to look at that, and my first question to 11 you is going to be, have you ever seen it before? 12 A I have seen this document before, or a copy 13 of this document. 14 Q And what is this -- strike that. When did 15 you first see a copy of this document? 16 A About January, 1970. 17 Q Under what circumstances did you see a copy 18 of this document? 19 A When I first assumed my duties on a new 20 assignment and had my discussions with Mr. Wheeler, he 21 gave me a copy of this document. 22 Q And what is this document? 23 A This is a copy of a letter authored and 24 signed by Mr. Wheeler that was sent to users of 25 dielectric fluids on or about the date of the document. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069398 40 1 Q When you say "users of dielectric fluids," do 2 you mean customers of Monsanto who bought dielectric 3 fluids from Monsanto during that time? 4 A Yes, these are customers of Monsanto, that is 5 correct. 6 Q And so was this document, in fact, sent to 7 all customers of record on or about that date, that is, 8 March of 1969? 9 MR. SUMMERS: I'll object, calls for 10 speculation. 11 A This was sent to all customers of dielectric 12 fluids that contained PCB's. 13 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay. And did Mr. Wheeler, 14 in fact, tell you that he had prepared this document? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And he told you that as a matter of his 17 regular course of business, he sent this out to all his 18 customers that you just identified? 19 A Yes. 20 Q What was the purpose of sending this document 21 out, sir? 22 A This was intended by Mr. Wheeler to bring up 23 to date those who received this letter regarding the 24 findings of PCB's in the environment and Monsanto's 25 understanding of the situation at that time and TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069399 41 1 Monsanto's programs that had been in place or were 2 being planned at that time. 3 Q Now, the first paragraph of this letter 4 reads, "On February 24, the San Francisco Chronicle 5 carried a major feature about va menacing new 6 pollutant' found in the San Francisco Bay area. The 7 article was based on marine life research carried out 8 by Dr. Robert Risebrough," R-I-S-E-B-R-O-U-G-H, "of the 9 University of California. It stated that residues of 10 polychlorinated biphenyl (PCB) were killing certain 11 marine birds and posed a long-term threat to humans." 12 Do you see that paragraph? 13 A I do. 14 Q Do you know who Dr. Risebrough is or was? 15 A Yes. Dr. Risebrough was a, a member of the 16 University of California at Berkeley, their research 17 staff. And I don't propose to know his formal 18 schooling or training, but I would describe him as 19 being a nature scientist. 20 Q Okay. Do you have a recollection, have you 21 ever read the article, the San Francisco Chronicle 22 article? 23 A I read it in January of 1970. 24 Q Do you know if that article was also sent on 25 to customers as a regular course? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069400 42 1 A I do not know. 2 Q Let's mark this as Papageorge 3. 3 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 3 marked for 4 identification by the court reporter.) 5 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay. I'm marking as 6 Exhibit Papageorge No. 3, a multiple page exhibit, it's 7 actually two documents. The first document is a News 8 for Release Immediately, 1970, and the first paragraph 9 starts "St. Louis, April 10," and it's three pages. 10 The second document is News for Release Immediately, 11 1970, St. Louis, July 16, and is it's four pages. Mr. 12 Papageorge, have you ever seen this document before? 13 A Yes, I have. 14 Q When did you first see this document? Let's 15 take the first three pages of it first. 16 MR. CARNEY: Is Exhibit 3 more than three 17 pages? 18 MR. CENTOLA: Yes. Unfortunately, I only 19 have enough copies, so if you can look on his. 20 MR. CARNEY: Okay. 21 Q (By Mr. Centola) Let's take the first three 22 pages. When did you first see that? 23 A I saw this document at, shortly before it was 24 published. 25 Q Did you partake in preparing the contents of TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069401 43 1 the document? 2 A I was one of the reviewers prior to the 3 publication. 4 Q Whose decision was it to -- strike that. 5 What is this document? 6 A This document is a release to the news media 7 prepared by a Monsanto representative in Monsanto's 8 Public Relations Department. 9 Q What was the purpose of -- strike that. 10 Whose decision was it to put together this news release 11 to have released to the news media? 12 A Mr. Howard Minckler, M-I-N-C-K-L-E-R. 13 Q And who was he? 14 A He was, at the time, a Monsanto Vice 15 President in charge of the, one of the operating 16 divisions in Monsanto. 17 Q Did you participate in that decision to put 18 this news release out? 19 A I was present in a small group that discussed 20 the wisdom of responding to Congressman Ryan's 21 remarks. I guess you'd call it that, I was a 22 participant. 23 Q Okay. The first -- and, in fact, was this 24 news release released to the news media on or about 25 April 10 of 1970? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069402 44 1 A Yes. 2 Q I want to ask you a couple questions about 3 this news release, okay? The first paragraph says, 4 "Monsanto Company said today it was well aware of the 5 concern over possible environmental contamination by 6 polychlorinated biphenyl (PCB), an industrial chemical 7 made by the company." Do you see that first sentence? 8 A I do. 9 Q Is that fair, is that an accurate 10 representation of what Monsanto was aware of as of 11 April 10, 1970? 12 A It is. 13 Q And it goes on to say, "The company began a 14 six point program in 1968 to properly identify and 15 measure PCB in the environment." Do you see that? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And it goes on to say, "Steps have been taken 18 to strictly control use of the chemical and replace 19 those grades of PCB which linger in nature." Do you 20 see that? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Okay. First of all, let's talk about the six 23 point program. Were you familiar with the six point 24 program in April of 1970? 25 A Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069403 45 1 Q Do you remember what the six point program 2 involved? 3 A I don't know that I remember all six points. 4 Q Did it involve the development of analytical 5 methodology? 6 A Yes, it did. 7 Q Did it involve the tightening of operations 8 to prevent PCB's from escaping into the environment, or 9 coming up with methods to prevent it from escaping into 10 the environment? 11 A It did. 12 Q Did the six point program look into 13 alternative materials? 14 A Yes. , 15 Q Did the six point program involve an 16 understanding of the biodegradation rates of PCB's? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And did the six point program involve 19 becoming more knowledgeable about any toxic effects of 20 PCB's? 21 A It did. 22 Q And did the six point program involve keeping 23 customers advised of developments relating to PCB's? 24 A It did. 25 Q And was this news release, in essence, part TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069404 46 1 of your six point program to keep people involved and 2 informed of the knowledge that Monsanto had about 3 PCB's? 4 A It was. 5 Q And this six point program that involved the 6 keeping customers advised of developments relating to 7 PCB's was implemented sometime in the middle of 1968? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Now, if we go to Page 4 of Exhibit 3, we have 10 a second news release. Is this, in fact, the second 11 news release released on or about July 16? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Okay. Was it, in fact, released to the news 14 media? 15 A It was. 16 Q On the second to last page of that document, 17 the first full paragraph, second full paragraph, 18 states, "Monsanto said it intends to continue selling 19 PCB for 'closed system' uses such as electrical 20 components and heat transfer systems. 'With rigid 21 control over where the product goes, how it is handled 22 and disposed of, we believe the safety functions of the 23 product can continue to serve society and the 24 environment can be protected,' Minckler said. 'We are 25 discontinuing sales into 'open systems' -- adhesives. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069405 47 1 sealants, chlorinated rubber, specialty paints, et 2 cetera." Do you see that? 3 A I do. 4 Q Did Monsanto, in fact, discontinue its sale 5 of PCB's to open systems? 6 A It did. 7 Q And when was that? 8 A It was effective August 30, 1970. 9 Q How much of the sales of PCB's did that 10 involve, percentagewise? 11 A By that, you mean just the plasticides? 12 Q Yeah, the open systems. 13 A I don't recall the exact numbers, but I would 14 suggest that it was approaching half, 40 percent or so. 15 Q So Monsanto, as early as August 30, 1977 -- 16 or 1970, because of its concerns about PCB's entering 17 the environment, made a decision to close down 18 approximately 40 percent of its sales of PCB's? 19 A Close to that, yes. 20 Q And was this, as a matter of custom and habit 21 and in the regular course of your business, 22 communicated to your customers at that time? 23 A Oh, certainly. 24 Q And, in fact, did Monsanto at this time sell 25 even the closed systems only under rigid control of TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069406 48 1 where the product went and how it was handled and 2 disposed of? 3 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, vague and ambiguous. 4 A Will you help me with the expression "rigid 5 control"? 6 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay. Let me ask you this, 7 and you told me you had reviewed the first news release 8 before it went out; is that correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Did you review the second news release? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Okay. When you reviewed it back in 1970, did 13 you have an understanding of what was meant by the 14 term, "rigid control of where the product goes, how it 15 was handled and disposed of"? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Okay. What was your understanding? 18 A This was the, as I perceived it, it was the 19 control exercised by the individuals in possession of 20 the material in terms of making certain that no leaks 21 occur; that if they do, they are quickly cleaned up, 22 and when disposed, they are put into the proper place, 23 or preferably recycled, reused. That's what my 24 understanding of rigid control, and it's really 25 primarily aimed at the person in possession of the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069407 49 1 material at the time that the incident occurs or use 2 occurs. 3 Q When you say, "the person in control of the 4 material," would that be a customer of dielectric 5 fluids from Monsanto? 6 A That would be an example, yes. 7 Q Let's mark this as Papageorge 4. 8 (Papageorge Exhibit 4 marked for 9 identification by the court reporter.) 10 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay, I'm marking as 11 Papageorge 4 for identification a multiple page 12 document that's an eight page document entitled 13 Polychlorinated Biphenyls, Control of Escape to the 14 Environment, and it appears to be on Monsanto 15 letterhead or stationery. Mr. Papageorge, would you 16 please look at the document that I've just marked as 17 Exhibit 4, and my first question will be to you, while 18 you're looking at it, is whether you've ever seen it 19 before? 20 A I have seen this document before. 21 Q Okay. When did you first see this document? 22 Strike that. Did you help in the preparation of this 23 document? - 24 A I was involved in the preparation either of 25 this document or versions of it. There is no date on TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069408 50 1 this, I have no way of knowing whether it's the first 2 of the series or the last of the series, but -- 3 Q Well, let me ask you this. You just 4 mentioned a series. What is this document, first of 5 all? 6 A This document is a collection of three, of 7 three summaries attempting to summarize the status of 8 Monsanto's programs. And it approaches to controlling 9 the escape of PCB's into the environment, understanding 10 what might happen if they do get into the environment 11 in terms of presence, and thirdly, trying to get an 12 understanding of what effects PCB's have on test 13 animals. 14 Q Okay. You mentioned that there were a series 15 of these type of documents prepared by Monsanto? 16 A There were attempts every six to eight months 17 or so to update the information in this collection of 18 documents. 19 Q And when did that series begin, do you have a 20 recollection? 21 A About mid-1970 is when I first put together 22 either this document or something similar. 23 Q Let's look at Page 2 of the document, and see 24 the paragraph numbered 1? 25 A Yes. Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069409 51 1 Q Just above it, it says, "We are therefore 2 taking the following actions: 1) Discontinue sales of 3 PCB's for all general plasticizer applications - August 4 30, 1970." Does that help refresh your recollection as 5 to when this was prepared? 6 A Yes, this was prepared in the summer of 7 1970. 8 MR. CARNEY: And by "this," you're talking 9 about the first three pages? 10 A Yes. I don't know about the other two, 11 there's no clue there that I can spot. 12 MR. CARNEY: There is a date on the -- 13 A Oh, yes, January 15, 1970, yeah. 14 MR. CARNEY: -- on the third to last page. 15 Q (By Mr. Centola) All right. On the third to 16 last page of the document, you have Status of Aroclor 17 Studies, and that's dated January 15, 1970? 18 A It does. 19 MR. CARNEY: Just for the record, I think 20 there's a group of documents stapled together. I don't 21 know that that date -- I just don't have any idea, but 22 I don't know whether that date refers to the other 23 documents, the preparation of the other documents or 24 what. 25 Q (By Mr. Centola) Clearly in1970, this TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069410 52 1 document was prepared; is that correct? 2 A At the earliest, yes. 3 Q Right. And was this document meant to be 4 disseminated to customers? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And was this document, in fact, passed on to 7 customers as a regular course of Monsanto's business? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And is it a fact that it became part of the 10 custom and habit of Monsanto to pass on these status 11 reports to all customers of record when they were 12 prepared? 13 A There's, no, I wouldn't say they went to all 14 customers of record. They went to -- 15 Q Customers of dielectric fluids? 16 A For sure. 17 Q Okay. And users of PCB's? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Okay. So your answer would be yes to that 20 question as to going on to, being part of your custom 21 and practice with respect to purchasers of dielectric 22 fluid, and PCB's? 23 A Yes, but the implication of, unless I 24 understood you incorrectly, that there was a mailing 25 effort for this kind of document. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069411 53 1 Q Right. 2 A This was generally issued by the salesman 3 when somebody called on a customer, he would distribute 4 copies to make sure it got to the right people. 5 Q Right, and it was part of his practice to do 6 that? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Okay. Who else helped youprepare this 9 document, sir? Or who else was involved in the 10 preparation of this document? 11 MR. CARNEY: Again, you're talking about the 12 entire Exhibit 4, which is -- 13 Q (By Mr. Centola) Right. If youhave a 14 recollection as to who helped you participate in the 15 series that you were talking about? 16 A The part that refers to biodegradation 17 studies, the primary author was Dr. Scott Tucker. 18 Q Who is Dr. Scott Tucker? 19 A He is a research chemist reporting to Dr. 20 Keller who was supervising the biodegradation 21 studies. The interim status report on the toxicity 22 testing was prepared by Mr. Elmer Wheeler. The front 23 pages. Pages 1, 2, and 3, I was the primary author. 24 Q Did Mister -- what position was Mr. Wheeler 25 in at this time again? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069412 54 1 A He was the principal member of Monsanto's 2 Medical Department who was responsible for the 3 management of toxicity studies placed with laboratories 4 for Monsanto. 5 Q Do you know who Mr. Olson is? 6 A Olson? 7 Q Right. 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q Who was Mr. Olson back in 1970? 10 A At that time he was the marketing director 11 for functional fluids reporting to Mr. Bircham. 12 Q What is Mr. Olson's first name? 13 A Donald. 14 Q Did he help prepare this document, or was he 15 involved in the preparation of these? 16 A Oh, he saw draft versions as they were being 17 prepared, so he did participate to that extent, yeah. 18 Q And did -- was it your decision to send this 19 document out to customers, sir? Or was that part of 20 Mr. Olson's decision as well? 21 MR. CARNEY: Again, you're talking about 22 Exhibit 4, and I think you're mischaracterizing his 23 testimony in regard to sending it out. 24 Q (By Mr. Centola) Let's, let's talk about, you 25 mentioned you had a series of reports, status reports. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069413 55 1 that people at Monsanto were involved in preparing, 2 correct? 3 A I did, yes. 4 Q And you also testified, I believe, that as a 5 matter of course, salesmen would give these status 6 reports to customers; is that correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And you testified that these reports were 9 prepared maybe every six to eight months; is that 10 correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q My question to you is,the series of reports 13 that you were discussing, was it your decision or Mr. 14 Olson's decision to send those out to customers? 15 MR. SUMMERS: I'll just object to the extent 16 that he said they were prepared every six to eight 17 months, I believe he said there was an attempt to 18 prepare those. 19 Q (By Mr. Centola)Were they, infact, prepared 20 every six to eight months? 21 A Close to that. We might have put some out a 22 little earlier, and some, we'd wait a year or so, 23 depending on when we got meaningful new data. 24 Q Okay. Now, the question that I have with you 25 is whose decision was it to distribute that TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069414 56 1 information, those series? 2 A The decision to share the data was made very 3 early in this PCB environmental issue. I was not 4 physically present when it was made, so I'll be 5 speculating, but the preparation of a summary of the 6 major phases of this work was my strong recommendation, 7 and it was implemented, we actually did it. 8 MR. SUMMERS: I'd object and move to strike 9 as speculation. 10 Q (By Mr. Centola) Was there ever an attempt, 11 Mr. Papageorge, to phase out the manufacture and sale 12 of Aroclors 1242, 1254, and 1260, or any of those? 13 MR. SUMMERS: I'm sorry, just those three? 14 Q (By Mr. Centola) Yeah. 15 A Well, that's what actually took place. I'm 16 puzzled with the timing of the question. 17 Q Okay. What did take place with respect to 18 those Aroclors? 19 A Those were phased out in 1977. 20 Q Those were all Aroclors that were phased out? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q Did there come a time when Monsanto was 23 attempting to substitute for 1242, 1016? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. When did that take place? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069415 57 1 A 1971. 2 Q And that was in an attempt to put on the 3 market a less, a more biodegradable product? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. And 1016 was, in fact, being used, 6 there was developments on trying to replace 1242 with 7 1016; is that correct? 8 A For use in capacitors. 9 Q Right. Did the same substitution take place 10 with respect to 1254 and 1260? 11 A No, if I understand your question correctly. 12 There was no material that was comparable to the 54 and 13 60 and still would be more degradable, no. 14 Q All right. Did there come a time before the 15 phaseout of all PCB's altogether when Monsanto stopped 16 selling the 1242? 17 A As best I recall, there was still some 1242 18 available for those customers who continued to use it 19 in transformers, but not in capacitors. 20 Q Let's mark this as Papageorge No. 5. 21 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 5 marked for 22 identification by the court reporter.) 23 Q (By Mr. Centola) I have just marked as 24 Exhibit Papageorge No. 5 a two-page document dated 25 September 15, 1970, addressed to "Gentlemen," and TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069416 58 1 purportedly prepared by James G. Bryant, and AYD stamp 2 AYD 000099 and 000100. Mr. Papageorge, could you 3 please take a look at this? Have you ever seen that 4 before? 5 A Yes, I have. 6 Q What is that? 7 A This is a letter prepared by Mr. James Bryant 8 of Monsanto and sent to customers of dielectric fluids 9 in which Mr. Bryant is informing the customer that the 10 FDA is, has issued some guidelines regarding the 11 presence of PCB's in fish and milk. 12 Q Have you ever seen Mr. Bryant's signature 13 before? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And do you recognize the signature on that 16 letter? 17 A I do. 18 Q And isthat Mr. Bryant's signature? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And now would you please take a look at the 21 second page of that document? 22 A Yes. 23 Q What is that? 24 A This is a copy of the list of customers who 25 received the letter we just talked about. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069417 59 1 Q Now, is that a redacted list? 2 A Yes. 3 Q In other words, there were other customer 4 names on that second page, but for purposes of 5 producing to us, those customer names were eliminated; 6 is that correct? 7 MR. SUMMERS: I object, calls for 8 speculation. 9 A That is correct. 10 MR. CARNEY: Let me just say for the record 11 that that's also my understanding, that Monsanto's 12 policy would be to not disclose other customer names 13 just as a matter of business propriety, so those names 14 were redacted. 15 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay. So it's your 16 understanding, Mr. Papageorge, is it not, that back in 17 1970, there were a list of customers that were 18 maintained by Monsanto who purchased dielectric fluids; 19 is that correct? 20 A Certainly. 21 Q And that's a copy of the list; is that 22 correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And, in fact, on that list is Energy 25 Systems, Palo Alto, California, Mrs. Domer, 9/15/1970; TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069418 60 1 is that correct? 2 A That is correct. 3 Q Which indicates that this letter was, in 4 fact, sent to that location, does it not, sir? 5 A Yes, it does. 6 Q By the way, had you ever heard of Mrs. Domer? 7 A I haven't personally, no. 8 Q But Energy Systems? 9 A Yes. 10 Q How about Aydin, A-Y-D-I-N? 11 A I don't recall Aydin. 12 Q When did you first hear of Energy Systems? 13 A About 1970. 14 Q What did you know about Energy Systems in 15 1970? 16 MR. SUMMERS: I object, too general. 17 Q (By Mr. Centola) Let me try to correct it. 18 You first learned of Energy Systems in 1970; is that 19 correct? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q Do you remember the circumstances under which 22 you heard of them? 23 A Yes. I recall that they were amongst a list 24 or a grouping of users of dielectric fluids on what I'm 25 going to call the west coast, the western part of the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069419 61 1 United States. I also recalled that our marketing 2 manager for dielectric fluids had made a trip, and 3 amongst the customers that he called on, Energy 4 Systems was listed. My recollection is that they were 5 a small user of PCB dielectric fluids. 6 Q Who was that marketing manager? 7 A Paul Benignus, B-E-G-N-I-G-U-S (sic). 8 Q Who is James Bryant, by the way? 9 A Mr. Bryant was, reported to Mr. Benignus, and 10 he was the man located in St. Louis who provided 11 technical assistance to customers of dielectric fluids. 12 Q Okay. Did Paul Benignus report to you? 13 A No. 14 Q Did Paul -- strike that. You testified 15 earlier about the six point program that Monsanto had, 16 one of those points being keeping customers informed of 17 developments concerning PCB's in the environment. Do 18 you recall that? 19 A Yes. 20 Q As part of that effort, were trips made to 21 various customers to keep them informed? 22 A Oh, yes, many trips by many people. 23 Q Was Mr. Benignus' trip one of those trips? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And was the purpose of his trip, among other TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069420 62 1 things, to keep Energy Systems informed of the 2 developments of PCB's in the environment? 3 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, calls for 4 speculation. 5 A Yes. 6 Q (By Mr. Centola) By the way, how do you have 7 knowledge of that, sir? As to what the purpose of Mr. 8 Benignus' trip was? 9 A Well, Mr. Benignus and I saw each other every 10 day and planned our activities in this area, and as 11 part of those discussions, it was proposed that 12 somebody make some of these calls. Mr. Benignus was 13 assigned some of the customers and some of his 14 salespeople were assigned other groups. In fact, I 15 went on a tour of some of these customers' plants as 16 part of this overall program. So it was a matter of 17 doling out the work assignments so that it could be 18 done in a short period of time by as many people as 19 were available to communicate the information we had. 20 Q So as part of your everyday contact with Mr. 21 Benignus, as part of your and his participation in this 22 program to keep customers informed, Mr. Benignus was 23 assigned the task of going to Energy Systems to 24 accomplish that end; is that correct? 25 A That is correct. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069421 63 1 Q And, in fact, he did go to Energy Systems 2 for that purpose? 3 A He did. 4 Q And when you and Mr. Benignus sat down every 5 day to discuss where you would go, what kind of things 6 did you discuss should be imparted to customers 7 concerning PCB's? 8 A Well, the kinds of things that were 9 represented in that summary document, the uses, the 10 program for discontinuing the open use sales, the 11 status of the toxicity studies, the biodegradation 12 studies, the status of analytical chemistry in the 13 procedures, whether they were available, and if so, if 14 any customer was interested, we would be glad to give 15 them copies, that covers most of it. 16 Q Did you discuss with customers the importance 17 of keeping PCB's out of the environment? 18 A Oh, that's the number one subject, yes. 19 Q And did you discuss with customers keeping 20 PCB's away from water? 21 A Yes. We emphasized that. 22 Q And did you talk to customers about the 23 information you learned in your trips to Europe and the 24 incident concerning Yusho? 25 A Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069422 64 1 Q And did you recommend to customers disposal 2 and use techniques in order to keep the PCB's out of 3 the environment? 4 A We were able to recommend some procedures and 5 suggest that they carefully review these procedures and 6 apply it to their circumstances. 7 Q And that was all part of Mr. Benignus' charge 8 when he went to see Energy Systems; is that correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And just my last question on this, there is 11 no doubt in your mind that this letter was, in fact, 12 sent to Energy Systems? 13 A That is correct. 14 MR. SUMMERS: I object and move to strike as 15 speculation. 16 Q (By Mr. Centola) Do you have any reason to 17 believe this was not sent to Energy Systems? 18 A I do not. 19 Q In fact, was this letter sent out as part of 20 the practice of Monsanto during this time period to 21 keep customers informed of the developments concerning 22 PCB's in that time frame? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And it would have been sent out as part of 25 custom and practice of Monsanto? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069423 65 1 A Yes. 2 Q By the way, do you have a recollection of any 3 specifics concerning the trip of Mr. Bryant -- of Mr. 4 Benignus to Energy Systems other than it was a small 5 operation and a small user of dielectrics? 6 A I do recall that when he came back and we 7 discussed it, that it was his definite impression that 8 they understood the issues he talked about, and he was 9 assured that they had no problems. So it was a, let me 10 summarize, it was a comfortable feeling regarding that 11 particular trip in his report. 12 Q But he was assured they understood the 13 issues? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q Do you know if he made any other trips to 16 Energy Systems? 17 A I do not. 18 Q The trip we're talking about, when was that 19 trip made? 20 A 1970. 21 Q Is that when most of these trips were made, 22 by the way? 23 A There were many trips made through the 24 several years. There was a concentrated effort in 1970 25 to bring everybody up to speed regarding the PCB issues TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069424 66 1 followed by bringup sessions. 2 Q When you went on these trips, who would you 3 meet with as customers, generally? Would you meet with 4 the principals of the customers? 5 A You're talking about my personal experience? 6 Q Yes. 7 A Certainly we would meet with the location 8 manager and his staff. His engineers, the whole group 9 that reported to him, which gave us an opportunity to 10 give our message to a good size audience, anywhere from 11 six to a dozen people in a conference room at a time. 12 Q Do you know who Mr. Benignus met with at 13 Energy Systems? 14 A I do not. 15 Q Do you know how long he was there? 16 A No. 17 (A brief off the record discussion was held 18 at this time.) 19 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 6 marked for 20 identification by the court reporter.) 21 Q (By Mr. Centola) All right. I'm going to 22 mark as Papageorge Exhibit 6 an eight-page document, 23 the first page being a two-page, apparently a two-page 24 cover letter to Dear Customer on Monsanto stationery 25 from W.E. Schalk, S-C-H-A-L-K, and attached to it is a TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069425 67 1 October 29, 1969, appears to be a Chemical Week 2 article. And my first question to you as you're 3 viewing that, Mr. Papageorge, is whether you've ever 4 seen any portion, either this entire document or any 5 portion of it before? 6 A I have seen the entire document with 7 attachments. 8 Q What is this document, sir? 9 A This is a copy of a letter sent to customers 10 of record to Monsanto's PCB products that were used as 11 plasticizers. 12 Q Do you know if this letter was also sent to 13 users of dielectric fluids? 14 A A similar letter with a paragraph that 15 addressed the dielectric use added was sent to 16 dielectric customers. 17 MR. SUMMERS: Object and move to strike as 18 nonresponsive. 19 Q (By Mr. Centola) Well, my last question was, 20 was a similar letter sent to dielectric users, and your 21 answer is what, that it was? 22 A It's similar, yes, but a little bit 23 different. 24 Q All right, let me show you this. Let's mark 25 this as Papageorge Exhibit 6. I'm sorry, 7. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069426 68 1 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 7 marked for 2 identification by the court reporter.) 3 MR. CARNEY: Do you have another copy of 4 that? 5 Q (By Mr. Centola) No, I'm sorry, I don't. Mr. 6 Papageorge, you have before you what I've just marked 7 as Papageorge Exhibit 7. Is this, in fact, the letter 8 that was sent to users of dielectric fluids? 9 A It is. 10 Q Okay. So Exhibit 6 represents a form letter 11 that was sent to customers of record as a matter of 12 course and practice of Monsanto to plasticides users; 13 is that correct? 14 A That is correct. 15 Q And No. 7 represents a form letter sent to 16 customers of record as a matter of course and practice 17 by Monsanto to dielectric users? 18 A That is correct. 19 Q And was the Chemical Week article also 20 attached to Exhibit 7 when that went out? 21 A It was. 22 Q And that was sent out as partof thecustom 23 and habit of Monsanto back in 1970 to all customers of 24 record? 25 A Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069427 69 1 Q So if Energy Systems or Aydin were customers 2 of record, that would be sent out as a matter of 3 course? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And again, what was the purpose of these 6 particular letters? 7 A This is an attempt in early 1970 to bring the 8 customers up to date regarding the findings of PCB's in 9 the environment, and to inform the customer that the 10 products he has been purchasing do contain the 11 materials being found in the environment. 12 MS. BENNETT: I need to switch the tapes 13 now. 14 MR. CENTOLA: Take a break? 15 (A short recess was taken at this time.) 16 Q (By Mr. Centola) Mr. Papageorge, who is W.E. 17 Schalk? 18 A Mr. Schalk at the time was the marketing 19 director for the plasticizers business group. 20 Q And Donald Olson was the? 21 A Marketing director for the functional fluids 22 business group. 23 Q All right. Which would explain why 24 Papageorge 7 was sent by Mr. Olson to dielectric 25 customers? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069428 70 1 A That is correct. 2 Q As opposed to Exhibit 6, which was sent by 3 Schalk to plasticides users? 4 A That is correct 5 Q Mr. Papageorge, who is Randy Graham? 6 A Who was he? 7 Q Yes. 8 A He was the field representative for 9 dielectric fluids for Monsanto. 10 Q And what did Mr. Graham do as a field 11 representative for dielectric fluids at Monsanto? 12 A He would call on customers like a typical 13 salesman would, try to keep in touch with the customer 14 and his needs, and try to ascertain whether or not the 15 customer was satisfied with the product and the service 16 that he was getting, and also would act as the person 17 who would communicate to the customer any new 18 developments that Monsanto was knowledgeable of or, in 19 turn, would also report back to Monsanto the new ideas 20 and thoughts and developments that he would receive 21 from the customers. 22 Q Was Graham and Benignus on the same line of 23 authority? 24 A No. Mr. Graham reported to Mr. Benignus as a 25 functional reporting. Not administratively, but TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069429 71 1 functionally in terms of selling dielectric fluids. 2 Q And how about -- strike that. Where is Mr. 3 Benignus today, do you know? 4 A The last I knew, he was living in Belleville, 5 Illinois. 6 Q Is he still working? 7 A No, he's retired. 8 Q When you say the last time you knew, when was 9 that? 10 A About a year or two ago. 11 Q How about Mr. Bryant? Do you know where he 12 is today? 13 A In the northeast somewhere. That's as close 14 as I can get. 15 Q He's no longer with Monsanto? 16 A No. He left in about 1976 or thereabouts. 17 Q And Mr. Graham, do you know where he is? 18 A Mr. Graham is in the northeast also. I don't 19 know his address. 20 Q In the 1970 time frame, was Monsanto making 21 recommendations to clients regarding disposal controls 22 of PCB's? 23 A Yes. 24 Q In fact, was Monsanto letting clients know 25 that they would accept PCB wastes during that time TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069430 72 1 period? 2 A Of a certain type, yes. 3 Q What type of waste? 4 A Liquid waste. Pumpable material. 5 Q Did you participate in that decision to 6 inform clients that they would be able to send pumpable 7 waste back to Monsanto? 8 A Yes. 9 Q When did that take place? 10 A 1970. 11 Q And as a matter of course, did you 12 communicate that to your clients? 13 A Certainly. 14 Q Clients, customersof dielectric fluids? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And did you recommend, at that time, methods 17 of disposal of liquid waste to customers? 18 A In 1970? 19 Q Yes. 20 A Yes. 21 Q And what was the preferred method? 22 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, calls for 23 speculation, vague and ambiguous. 24 Q (By Mr. Centola) What method did you 25 recommend to clients back in 1970? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069431 73 1 A We recommended that incineration was the 2 preferred method. 3 Q In fact, did Monsanto have an incinerator? 4 A Eventually, we had an incinerator operating. 5 It was being designed in 1970. 6 Q Did there come a time when you received your 7 waste from customers to incinerate in the Monsanto 8 incinerator? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And did you inform your customers that this 11 service was available to them? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And were all your customers on the, on date 14 of record as a matter of course informed that Monsanto 15 had an incinerator to dispose of their liquid wastes? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And when was that? 18 A The information was sent to the customers 19 starting in 1970 in anticipation of the unit that went 20 into operation the following year. 21 Q Did you have any, did Monsanto have any 22 proposals with respect to solid PCB wastes which it 23 communicated to its customers as a regular course of 24 its business back in 1970 and '71? 25 A We did. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069432 74 1 Q And what was that communication to your 2 customers? 3 A Well, it emphasized, first of all, to keep 4 the amount to a minimum; and secondly, that the only 5 available acceptable method of disposal was in a 6 landfill that was properly authorized by the local 7 authorities, and one that did not have underground 8 water problems or allow for seepage into waterways on 9 the surface or even underground water. 10 Q So as a matter of your business and custom 11 back in 1970 and '71, you informed your customers as of 12 that date that even their solid wastes were to be put 13 into landfills where there would be no problems with 14 the PCB's escaping into ground water or waterways? 15 A That is correct. 16 Q We talked about the labeling section of 17 Monsanto earlier today. Did there come a time when 18 Monsanto placed labels on containers containing PCB's 19 that went to customers which addressed the warnings 20 which -- strike that. Which had warnings concerning 21 PCB's and their entering the environment? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And in what time frame did that take place? 24 A In May of 1970. 25 Q Let's mark this as Papageorge 8 and this one TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069433 75 1 as Papageorge 9. 2 (Papageorge Exhibits No. 8 and 9 marked for 3 identification by the court reporter.) 4 Q (By Mr. Centola) Let me show you what I've 5 marked as Papageorge 8 first. And this purports to be 6 -- well, it says "Aroclor 1016, Electrical Grade, 7 Monsanto," and it says, "Caution" on it. It's a 8 one-page document. Have you ever seen this document, 9 this, this document before? 10 A Yes, I have. 11 Q What is it? 12 A This is a copy of a Monsanto label which is 13 placed on a 55 gallon drum of Aroclor 1016. 14 Q Do you recall what color that label was? 15 A As I remember, this was a white background 16 with red highlights and red lettering. 17 Q So the Monsanto and the lettering here would 18 be in red? 19 A That's my recollection. 20 Q And was that label placed on all 55 gallon 21 drums of 1016 that went to customers? 22 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, calls for 23 speculation. 24 Q (By Mr. Centola) Well, strike it. Who 25 participated in drafting the language on that label? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069434 76 1 A All of the language? 2 Q Yeah. 3 A Medical Department. 4 Q Right. 5 A Marketing Department. 6 Q Right. 7 A The Label Department. 8 Q Right. 9 A The Legal Department. 10 Q Right. 11 A I participated, and Manufacturing Department. 12 Q So you participated with all of those other 13 departments in putting this label together? 14 A Well, I hesitate because some portions of 15 this label are as old as the 30's. 16 Q Right. 17 A I was not present then, so I can't claim that 18 I participated in all of this. 19 Q Which portion did you participate in? 20 A I participated, of course I reviewed the old 21 warning and found that they were still appropriate, so 22 there was a participation of thatkind. 23 Q Right. 24 A I participatedprimarily in the environmental 25 paragraph that refers to containing it and preventing TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069435 77 1 it from escaping. I participated in this reference to 2 reclamation, and I also participated in the waste 3 disposal paragraph. 4 Q Would you read the portion that you helped 5 prepare? 6 A "This product contains polychlorinated 7 biphenyls, which some studies have shown may be 8 persistent, an environmental contaminant and, possibly, 9 injurious to certain forms of bird, aquatic and animal 10 life. Extreme care should be taken to prevent any 11 entry into the environment through spills, leakage, 12 use, disposal, vaporization or otherwise." 13 Q Thank you. Did you participate in the 14 decision to put this label on the barrels of 1016? 15 A Yes, I promoted that idea. 16 Q And, in fact, was your idea put into 17 practice? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And, infact, then that label was put on 20 barrels of 1016 that went out to customers pursuant to 21 your promotion? 22 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, speculation. 23 Q (By Mr. Centola) You can answer the question. 24 A Yes. 25 Q And whendid that take place? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069436 78 1 A For 1016, it was when it was introduced into 2 the marketplace, it would be 1971. 3 Q Was that put on barrels until the 4 discontinuance of the use of 1016? 5 MR. SUMMERS: Same objection. 6 A These words were, they were slightly 7 modified, but the message, a similar message was on 8 barrels until 1977. 9 Q (By Mr. Centola) Did you see those on 10 barrels, those labels? 11 A Did I see? 12 Q Yes. 13 A I didn't see every barrel, but I did see 14 many, many of them. 15 Q Right. And it was it the practice and 16 custom, then, of Monsanto, starting in 1971 when 1016 17 was introduced into the market, to place these warnings 18 on all 55 gallon drums that went to customers? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And do you know of any drums containing 1016 21 that did not contain this label on it? 22 A No. 23 Q Let me show you what has been marked as 24 Papageorge No. 9 for identification. Now, on this, we 25 have two pages. Do you recognize either this entire TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069437 79 1 document or any portion thereof? 2 A I recognize the entire document. 3 Q What is that? 4 A This is a copy of a label that is attached to 5 a five gallon container of Aroclor 1254, and attached 6 to that is a copy of the wording that is painted, in 7 essence, on the container. It was part of the 8 enameling or the covering of the container. This is a 9 four language message that refers to the environment 10 and health effects. 11 Q Okay. Did you -- strike that. Do you recall 12 what the color of this label was? 13 A This, again, was a white background with red 14 highlights. This was black lettering, the second page 15 was black lettering on a yellow bucket of material. 16 Q Okay. So the first page would have been, 17 again, white with red; is that correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And the second page was yellow with black; is 20 that correct? 21 A Correct. 22 Q And the second page -- strike that. The 23 first page went onto what? 24 A It went onto the side of the pail, the five 25 gallon pail of material. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069438 80 1 Q Did it also go onto the 55 gallon drums? 2 A Yes, a similar label with a different weight 3 designation printed on it. 4 Q Okay. And the second, that was also on the 5 pails? 6 A The second was imprinted on the pails when 7 they were painted. 8 Q How about the 55 gallon drums? 9 A The 55 gallons had these four languages and 10 an additional three. Seven language around the 11 perimeter of the barrel. 12 Q And when did these warnings go on with 13 respect to 1254? 14 A The warnings of this type went on in 1973. 15 MR. CARNEY: You're talking about the 16 environmental warnings? 17 Q (By Mr. Centola) Right. On 1254. 18 A Yeah, the environmental as well as the multi 19 language approach. 20 Q Is there a reason why 1973 was selected for 21 1254? 22 A Oh, I didn't mean to mislead. The 23 environmental message went on 1254 in 1970, along with 24 everything else. 25 Q Okay. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069439 81 1 A The multi-language yellow drum was initiated 2 in '73. 3 Q Okay. 4 A And covered all the products that were being 5 sold is as of 1973. 6 Q Okay. Thank you. So as of 1970, the 7 warnings were on in English, but as of 1973, they went 8 on in the other languages? 9 A That is correct. 10 Q And it was part of the custom and habit and 11 practice of Monsanto in the time frames that you 12 described to put these warnings on any containers 13 containing 1254 that went to customers; is that 14 correct? 15 A That is correct. 16 Q Were these kind of warnings put on containers 17 containing 1260, Aroclor 1260? 18 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, vague and ambiguous, 19 speculation. 20 Q (By Mr. Centola) If you know. 21 A When you say "these kind of warnings," are 22 you also including multi-language? 23 Q Okay. Let's just, let's start with the 24 environmental warning, not necessarily multi-language. 25 A The environmental warning was placed on drums TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069440 82 1 of 1260 in 1970, and when the sales of 1260 were 2 terminated in about 1971, of course, they were no 3 longer required. 4 Q And with respect to Aroclor 1242, was it the 5 custom and practice of Monsanto to place similar 6 warnings on drums and buckets containing that product 7 as of 1970? 8 A Yes. 9 Q This is from the production. 10 MR. CARNEY: Those last two were not? 11 MR. CENTOLA: No. 12 MR. SUMMERS: So far we've only had one from 13 the production? 14 MR. CARNEY: That's right. Exhibit 5. 15 Q (By Mr. Centola) I'm going to mark this as 16 one exhibit. Make it two exhibits. Mark these 17 collectively as Papageorge 10. 18 MR. CARNEY: Those are the Transformer 19 Pyranol? 20 MR. CENTOLA: Yeah, Pyranol and Inerteen. 21 MR. SUMMERS: Do you know where those are in 22 the -- 23 MR. CENTOLA: And this will be Papageorge 24 11. 25 (Papageorge Exhibits No. 10 and 11 marked for TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069441 83 1 identification by the court reporter.) 2 Q (By Mr. Centola) Papageorge 10 are one, two, 3 three, four, five, six two-page documents purporting to 4 be warnings concerning Transformer Pyranol A -- just 5 Transformer Pyranol. Take a look at those, Mr. 6 Papageorge. 7 MR. CARNEY: I counted five. 8 Q (By Mr. Centola) There may be. Try it 9 again. Oh, I see why. There's five, okay. Have you 10 ever seen these before, Mr. Papageorge? 11 A Yes, I have. 12 Q And if you could, would you please let us 13 know what these are? 14 A These are copies of labels that were applied 15 to drums of dielectric fluid which was marketed under 16 the trademark Pyranols. 17 Q We discussed Pyranols earlier today, did we 18 not? 19 A We did. 20 Q And Pyranols are dielectric fluids that, in 21 fact, contain PCB's, are they not? 22 A They are. 23 Q And again, what color were these particular 24 labels? 25 A Just like the previous ones we discussed. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069442 84 1 The label itself which is attached to the drum is the 2 white background with red lettering, and the attachment 3 is a copy of the multi-language, seven language message 4 regarding environmental control and health effects that 5 is lithographed on the drums. 6 Q All right. And again, did you participate in 7 drafting at least some of the language on these two 8 pages? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And which language is that, sir? 11 A Just, at this point in time, just about all 12 of it. 13 Q And what point in time are we talking about? 14 A It's 1973 for the multi-language part. 15 Q Right. 16 A And these labels, I see some of them that 17 were prepared in about 1975. 18 Q Okay. How do you know that they were 19 prepared in 1975? 20 A There is a reference to ship to supervisor of 21 the department for disposal. 22 Q Right. 23 A In the earlier one, the '73, the department 24 was referred to as Department 790. 25 Q Right. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069443 85 1 A And the later ones, two years later, the 2 department number changed to 831. 3 Q Okay. Again, were, when did warnings first 4 go on containers that contained Transformer Pyranol? 5 A What kind of warning? 6 Q Environmental. 7 A 1970. 8 Q But in the form wehavebefore you today, 9 we're talking 1973 and 1975? 10 A Correct. 11 Q So it was the custom and practice and habit 12 of Monsanto as of 1970 to put environmental warnings, 13 label warnings on containers containing Transformer 14 Pyranol that went to customers; is that correct, sir? 15 A That is correct. 16 Q And I will show you what I havemarked 17 collectively as Papageorge 11, which is six two-page 18 warnings and two single page warnings. But before you 19 look at that, Mr. Papageorge, let's go back to 20 Papageorge 10 just for a second. Now, on the bottom, 21 we have what appears to be pounds and weights; is that 22 correct? 23 A That is correct. 24 Q Okay. So on the bottom of all of these 25 labels, you can tell what size the container is by the. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069444 86 1 by this designation on the bottom; is that correct? 2 A That is correct. 3 Q All right. Go to page -- go to Exhibit 11, 4 and again, do you recognize what's before you, sir? 5 A These are copies of labels that were applied 6 to containers of a dielectric fluid sold under the 7 trademark Inerteen, and there are at least two 8 Inerteens represented in this collection. 9 Q Again, what color were these labels? 10 A Again, red lettering on white background, 11 except for those copies of the black on yellow 12 lithograph. 13 Q That's the second page? 14 A That's the multi-language second page on some 15 of these. 16 Q Okay. And was it the custom and practice and 17 habit of Monsanto during its regular course of business 18 beginning in 1970 to place warnings with respect to 19 Inerteen on containers going to customers that were on 20 record, that was going to customers when they purchased 21 this product? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And that that warning would contain warnings 24 about the product getting into the environment and 25 dangers to aquatic life? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069445 87 1 A Yes. 2 Q And again, did you participate in the 3 drafting of at least some of the language on these 4 warnings? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And again, was it, for the most part, the 7 same people involved in the drafting of these 8 documents? 9 A Yes. 10 Q By the way, is this approximately the size of 11 the labels? 12 A Yes. Except for the multi-language portion. 13 That's a reduced size. 14 Q Oh, it is? How big would the multi-language 15 portion be? 16 A It would fit around the circumference of a 55 17 gallon drum, which is about 30 inches across, I would 18 guess. So the message would be, I'm guessing, about 19 three times what's pictured there in size. 20 Q And this would include the language 21 concerning, that states, "Prevent any entry into the 22 environment through spills, leakage, disposal, 23 vaporization, reuse of containers or otherwise, spills 24 leakages and waste product must be collected"? 25 A Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069446 88 1 Q That would be around the entire circumference 2 of the barrels? 3 A Yes, in different languages around the drum. 4 MR. SUMMERS: I'm sorry, where is that? 5 Q (By Mr. Centola) I was reading from the 6 Inerteen. 7 A It's the label that has the Cross of St. 8 Andrew on the top sheet, on the multi-language portion 9 of it. 10 Q It's 000133. That's the AYD stamp number. 11 To your knowledge, would this product be sold without 12 that label once you started using it? 13 A No, I'm convinced it can't be. 14 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, move to strike, 15 speculation. 16 MR. CENTOLA: Well, he said he's convinced it 17 can't be, so it doesn't sound like speculation. 18 MR. SUMMERS: You can be convinced of a lot 19 of things. 20 Q (By Mr. Centola) Was this, were the labels 21 put on the product until the discontinuation of the 22 product? 23 A There is a copy of a label there that existed 24 up until the continuation. The full packet wasn't in 25 existence then. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069447 89 1 Q But the environmental warnings were kept on 2 until you discontinued use of the product? 3 A Yes. 4 Q By the way, were these labels, inaddition to 5 being on containers, distributed to customers to place 6 on containers in their facilities? 7 MR. SUMMERS: Same objection. 8 A Not to my knowledge. 9 Q (By Mr. Centola) Well, did customers, did 10 some customers return waste PCB's to you, to Monsanto? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And in returning the waste PCB's to Monsanto, 13 did you require them to put labels on the containers? 14 A We provided a label. 15 Q Okay. Let's get to that. Did Monsanto then 16 provide labels to customers to put on waste PCB's that 17 were going to be returned to Monsanto? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And what did theselabelssay, sir? 20 A Oh, I forget theexactwording, but it 21 described the contents. 22 Q Right. 23 A And it also had the environmental warnings, 24 the need to control and preventing escape, and had, as 25 I recall, a telephone number to call in case of a TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069448 90 1 transportation problem, shipping problem. 2 Q So as a matter of course and as a custom and 3 practice of Monsanto, it would send these labels to be 4 placed on containers that would be returned to Monsanto 5 from customers with waste PCB's? 6 A Yes. 7 Q When did that practice begin? 8 A 1971. 9 Q This is from the production. Did there come 10 a time in your charge -- strike that. Let me back up 11 for a minute. In 1970, you became the Manager of 12 Environmental Control; is that correct? 13 A That is correct. 14 Q How long did you maintain that position? 15 A The job and its area of responsibility, I was 16 involved with that job until February of 1976 in terms 17 of how it related to PCB's. The titles through those 18 years did change somewhat. 19 Q To what? 20 A Oh, it went from ManagerEnvironmental 21 Control to Manager Environmental Protection, and 22 finally it was Manager of Product Acceptability. 23 Q As a result of those changes in title, did 24 your job function at all change? 25 A There were products in addition to PCB that TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069449 91 1 were assigned to me. 2 Q Okay. Did there come a time when you 3 participated in drafting language containing 4 environmental warnings to be placed on invoices to be 5 sent to customers of Monsanto? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And do you have a recollection as to when the 8 time frame was? 9 A As best I recall, it was about 1972. 10 Q Let me show you a document. It's two pages, 11 and the stamp number is AYD 000061 and 62 which 12 purports to be an invoice sent to Energy Systems, 13 Inc., for Inerteen 70-30. Why don't we mark it first. 14 This would be Papageorge Exhibit 12 for 15 identification. 16 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 12 marked for 17 identification by the court reporter.) 18 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay, my first question to 19 you is, have you ever seen a copy of this document 20 before? 21 A Yes, it looks familiar. 22 Q In particular, I want you to point, direct 23 your attention to the first page under "Description, 24 Price & Unit." 25 A I see it. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069450 92 1 Q Where it says, "Inerteen" -- strike that. 2 First of all, it says, "674 pound metal drum." Do you 3 see that? 4 A I do. 5 Q Is that a 55 gallon drum? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And it says, "Inerteen 70-30." Is that a 8 dielectric fluid containing PCB's? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And it says, "FOB Santa Clara, California," 11 do you see that? 12 A I do. 13 Q It's for delivery to that location, is it 14 not? 15 A Yes. 16 Q In fact, this is for delivery to Energy 17 Systems, Inc., at Palo Alto, California, do you see 18 that? 19 A I do. 20 Q Now, the language under "Description, Price & 21 Unit," states, "This product contain polychlorinated 22 biphenyls, PCB's, which some studies have shown may be 23 persistent, an environmental contaminant, and possibly 24 injurious to certain forms of bird, aquatic and animal 25 life. Prevent any entry into the environment through TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069451 93 1 spills, disposal, vaporization, reuse of containers or 2 otherwise," and it goes on. Do you see that? 3 A I do. 4 Q Did you draft this language, sir? 5 A I drafted a paragraph which was used on the 6 labels, and this message was copied from that draft. 7 Q Okay. Had it become the custom and habit and 8 practice of Monsanto in the regular course of its 9 business to place this warning on products containing 10 PCB's? On invoices of products containing PCB's that 11 went to its customers in the 1973 time frame? 12 A Yes. 13 MR. SUMMERS: I object, move to strike as to 14 what warning; speculation, vague and ambiguous. 15 Q (By Mr. Centola) Was it the custom and 16 practice and the habit of Monsanto during its regular 17 course of business to place this language that was just 18 read to you on its invoices containing, referring to 19 materials containing PCB's that went to its customers? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. And when did you begin, did Monsanto 22 begin doing this? 23 A As best I can I recall, it was late '72. 24 Q Okay. So would this language have been 25 placed upon invoices relating to the various Aroclors TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069452 94 1 we've discussed beginning in late '72? 2 A Yes. Those that were still marketed or sold, 3 yes. 4 Q Right. And would this have been placed on 5 Pyranol invoices? 6 A If it contained PCB's, yes. 7 Q And it was your understanding that once the 8 policy began, that all invoices containing, relating to 9 PCB products would contain this language? 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q And was that the case until you discontinued 12 selling those products, sir? 13 A As far as I know. 14 Q I just want to mark one more of these, which 15 is Papageorge 13. 16 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 13 marked for 17 identification by the court reporter.) 18 Q (By Mr. Centola) Again, we have the, this is 19 another invoice to Energy Systems, let me identify it 20 first. It's AYD 000063 and 64 from the production, and 21 again, it purports to be an invoice, a Monsanto invoice 22 to Energy Systems, Inc., 3180 Hanover Street, Palo 23 Alto, California. And under "Description, Price & 24 Unit," it refers to 674 pound metal drum, Inerteen 25 70-30, and containing, does it not, the same language TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069453 95 1 that we just read, sir? 2 A It does. 3 Q And this, again, is one of the invoices that 4 would have gone as practice and custom of Monsanto 5 during the regular course of its business to its 6 customers that were purchasing Inerteen at this time 7 frame? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And is there any doubt in your mind that 10 this, in fact, did not go to Energy Systems? 11 A There is no doubt. 12 Q By the way, do you know who G. Graf is? 13 A He was a member of Monsanto's staff in St. 14 Louis that concerned themselves with customer service, 15 and he would make sure that the proper documents were 16 prepared and that the shipment did take place and so 17 on. 18 MR. CENTOLA: Thank you. Would you like to 19 break now for lunch? 20 MR. SUMMERS: Sure. 21 MR. CARNEY: Yeah. 22 (A recess was taken at this point from 23 12:05 p.m. to 1:15 p.m.) 24 25 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069454 96 1 CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION 2 QUESTIONS BY MR. CENTOLA: 3 Q Mr. Papageorge, just for the record, I'd like 4 to remind you that you're still under oath. 5 A I understand. 6 Q What I'd like to do is go back over a couple 7 of the exhibits that we've been through this morning, 8 and in particular, let's start with Papageorge Exhibit 9 No. 2, which was the March 3, 1969, letter that you 10 said was sent to customers and authored by Elmer P. 11 Wheeler, okay? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Is it your understanding that this document 14 was prepared by Mr. Wheeler during the normal course of 15 his business at Monsanto? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And as part of his course of business, you 18 imparted the information onto this letter and sent this 19 letter out; is that correct? 20 A That is correct. 21 Q And let's go to Papageorge Exhibit 3, which 22 are the two news releases, okay? Now, you testified 23 that you participated, at least you reviewed these 24 releases before they went out; is that correct? 25 A Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069455 97 1 Q Is it your understanding that these news 2 releases were made by Monsanto personnel? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And these news releases were made during the 5 course, regular course of business for Monsanto? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And they were made in furtherance of that 8 course of business; is that correct, sir? 9 A That is correct. 10 Q And as part of that business, these news 11 releases did, in fact, go out; is that correct, sir? 12 A That is correct. 13 MR. SUMMERS: I'd object and move to strike 14 as to speculation, and the same as to all these that 15 you're going through now. 16 Q (By Mr. Centola) And Mr.Papageorge, with 17 respect to Exhibit 3, you testified, did you not, that 18 you, in fact, prepared the first three pages of this 19 document? 20 A I did. 21 Q And did you preparethose first three pages 22 during the regular course of your business at Monsanto? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And did you prepare those three pages during 25 the furtherance of that business at Monsanto? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069456 98 1 A Yes. 2 Q And did you acquire the information that was 3 contained in these pages during the course of your 4 employment at Monsanto? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And you imparted the information shortly 7 thereafter onto these documents? 8 A Correct. 9 Q And is that your understanding with respect 10 to the other pages of this document as well here, Mr. 11 Papageorge? 12 A Except that there were different individuals 13 were the authors of those, yes. 14 Q Right. And they were prepared in the normal 15 course of their business; is that correct? 16 A That is correct. 17 Q And in furtherance of the normal course of 18 that business? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Did you collaborate with them when they 21 prepared these documents? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And so you were witness to them preparing 24 these documents; is that correct, Mr. Papageorge? 25 A That is correct. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069457 99 1 Q And when they prepared them, they were 2 preparing them in the courseof their business at 3 Monsanto; is that correct? 4 A That is correct. 5 Q And the information that they received, they 6 received during the course of their business at 7 Monsanto; is that correct,sir? 8 A That is correct. 9 Q Thank you. Okay. And Mr. Papageorge, I want 10 to show you Exhibit No. 5. This was the letter of 11 James Bryant dated September 15, 1970. Do you recall 12 that, sir? 13 A I do. 14 Q And I recall that you testified that this, in 15 fact, was sent out? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Is it your understanding that Mr. Bryant 18 prepared this letter during the course of his 19 employment at Monsanto? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And did he prepare this letter in furtherance 22 of the course of his employment at Monsanto? 23 A He did. 24 Q Thank you. By the way -- strike that. By 25 the way, Mr. Papageorge, was a file maintained by you TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069458 100 1 at Monsanto for documents that were generated regarding 2 the PCB issues that were developing in the 1970's? 3 MR. SUMMERS: I'd object, unintelligible, 4 vague and ambiguous. 5 Q (By Mr. Centola) Didyouunderstand me? 6 A I believe I did. 7 Q Okay. 8 A I kept a file. 9 Q Okay. What was kept inyour file? 10 A A mixture, really, of information that 11 related to PCB's. There were, of course, copies of my 12 personal correspondence related to the subject, there 13 were copies of correspondence I received from others, 14 there were copies of such documents as that one we had 15 here describing the status of a given period of time 16 kept, there were copies of brochures and pamphlets that 17 covered the subject. 18 Q Do you know, for instance, let's go back to 19 Papageorge No. 4. Were the three, first three pages 20 you prepared maintained in that file? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And that was a file that you maintained at 23 Monsanto? 24 A That was part of the file system, yes. 25 Q Okay. Do you know if any of the other first TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069459 101 1 of Exhibits 2, 3, or 5 were part of your file? 2 A 2 and 3 were; I don't recall keeping a copy 3 of No. 5. 4 Q So it's your testimony that, in fact, you've 5 maintained Exhibits 2 and 3 in your file at Monsanto? 6 A That is right. 7 /Q And you maintained that file during the 8 regular course of your business at Monsanto? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And all of these documents were kept there as 11 business records, were they not? 12 A Those that I kept. 13 Q That would be Exhibit 4, 2, and 3? 14 A Those are examples of the types that I kept, 15 yes. 16 Q And, in fact, were these kept there, 2, 3, 17 and 5? 2, 3, and 4, I'm sorry. 18 A Yes. 19 MR. SUMMERS: 2, 3, and 4, not 5? 20 Q (By Mr. Centola) Right. Right. Do you know 21 if Mr. Bryant kept a copy of this? 22 A I do know, yes. 23 Q You do know? 24 A Definitely. He was told to. 25 Q So it's your testimony, then -- who told him TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069460 102 1 to do that? 2 A Well, I for one, and the Law Department for 3 another. 4 Q So it's your understanding that Exhibit 5 was 5 kept and maintained at Monsanto in its file? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And it was maintained by Mr. Bryant at your 8 direction in the Monsanto file? 9 A Yes. 10 Q As a business record? 11 A Right. 12 Q Let's take a look at 6. This, too, is, I 13 believe, a letter that you said, that we established 14 was prepared by Mr. Schalk? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And Exhibit 7 was a letter that was prepared 17 by Mr. Olson; correct? 18 A That is correct. 19 Q Okay. Do you know, sir, if these two letters 20 were prepared during the ordinary course of the 21 business of Mr. Schalk and Mr. Olson? 22 A They were. 23 Q And do you know, sir, if the information that 24 is contained in these letters were acquired during the 25 course of their employment at Monsanto? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069461 103 1 A It was. 2 Q And was that information imparted into these 3 documents on or about the time, the days that these 4 documents were prepared? 5 A It was. 6 Q And were thesedocumentsmaintained in files 7 as business records at Monsanto? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And whose files were they maintained in? 10 A In the files of the authors of those letters. 11 Q Take a look at -- let's take a look at 8, 9, 12 10, and 11. And we're looking at them together because 13 they were all in the same category of documents, which 14 are labels; is that correct, sir? 15 A That is correct. 16 Q Now, you testified earlier that you prepared 17 portions of the wording on these particular documents; 18 is that correct, sir? 19 A That is correct. 20 Q And the wording that you prepared was wording 21 with respect to warnings concerning PCB's entering the 22 environment; is that correct, sir? 23 A That is, that included some of the wording, 24 yes. 25 Q Okay. Now, did you prepare that wording TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069462 104 1 during the course of your business at Monsanto? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And did you prepare that in furtherance of 4 that business at Monsanto? 5 A I did. 6 Q And was thatwording, in fact, in part 7 incorporated into these documents, sir? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And were thesedocuments prepared as part of 10 the business of Monsanto? 11 A They were. 12 Q And were these, in fact, maintained at 13 Monsanto as business records, copies of these 14 documents? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Just for the record, I'd like to, if we can, 17 get a close up of Exhibit, first, 8. This is the 18 Monsanto warning with respect to Aroclor 1016; and 19 Exhibit 9, which is the Aroclor 1254. And on the 20 second page, the warnings in four different languages. 21 And Exhibit 11, which is a warning with respect to 22 Inerteen; and with respect to Papageorge 10, the 23 warning with respect to Transformer Pyranol. 24 Now, I just want to show you what has been 25 marked as Papageorge 12 and 13. Sir, we discussed TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069463 105 1 these earlier as being invoices that you stated were, 2 in fact, sent to Energy Systems. Do you recall that, 3 sir? 4 A I do. 5 Q Okay. 6 MR. SUMMERS: I'd object as speculation as to 7 whether he knows they were sent. 8 Q (By Mr. Centola) Well, it wasmy 9 understanding that you had knowledge that they were 10 sent. 11 MR. SUMMERS: And mischaracterizing, I 12 believe, his testimony. 13 Q (By Mr. Centola) Wasthat your testimony? 14 A That's my understanding, yes, my knowledge. 15 Q Okay. Let me ask you, sir, is, were these 16 documents prepared during the normal course of business 17 at Monsanto, sir? 18 A They were. 19 Q And were they, in fact, in fact, was the 20 language similar language that's on these documents 21 prepared by you in the normal course of your business? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And that's the language with respect to the 24 warning concerning PCB's in the environment? 25 A Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069464 106 1 Q And were copies of these documents maintained 2 as the ordinary course, in the ordinary course of 3 business at Monsanto, sir? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And -- I have no further questions with 6 respect to those documents. I think we can move on. 7 Mr. Papageorge, you testified, you testified 8 earlier that you used to send, Monsanto sent to 9 customers labels to put on materials that would be 10 returned to Monsanto; is that correct, sir? 11 A Materials concerning PCB's. 12 Q Right. 13 A That is correct. 14 Q Okay. I'd like to mark this as Papageorge 15 Exhibit No. 13. 16 MR. SUMMERS: You mean 14? 17 MR. CENTOLA: Do I mean 14? 18 THE REPORTER: Yes. 19 MR. CENTOLA: I mean 14. 20 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 14 marked for 21 identification by the court reporter.) 22 Q (By Mr. Centola) Would you please look at 23 what I've just marked as Papageorge 14? 24 A I have reviewed it. 25 Q Have you ever seen it before? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069465 107 1 A Yes. 2 Q Okay. What is that? 3 A This is a copy of a label supplied by 4 Monsanto to its customers for use on containers of 5 material being returned. Material containing PCB's 6 being returned to Monsanto for reclamation, recycling, 7 or disposal. 8 Q Are these the labels that we have spoken 9 about earlier today that were distributed to your 10 customers? 11 A Yes, this is a copy of one of them. 12 Q Okay. Would you show it, face it out, 13 please? 14 A (Witness complies.) 15 Q Do you recall what color those were? 16 A This is white lettering on a red background. 17 Q Did you participate in the preparation of 18 that document? 19 A I did. 20 Q And what part of it did you prepare? 21 A Well, the wording as it, as it refers to the 22 environmental control needs, and I did review the 23 reference to effects on people of breathing and getting 24 on their skin and so on. 25 Q Was that document prepared during the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069466 108 1 ordinary course of business at Monsanto? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And did you help prepare your portion of it 4 in the course of that business, sir? 5 A I did. 6 Q And, in fact, were copies of those labels 7 kept in the ordinary course of business at Monsanto? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And sir, it's very difficult for me to read. 10 Can you read out loud what that warning says? 11 A I'll try, it's kind of blurred. "This 12 product contains polychlorinated biphenyls which 13 concentrate" -- 14 MR. SUMMERS: I can't read it. 15 Q (By Mr. Centola) Well, Mr. Papageorge is the 16 author, that's why I'm having him try to do it. 17 A I can't read some of these words. 18 Q Okay. Go on to what you can. 19 A "May," may something "environmental 20 contaminant. Extreme care should be taken to 21 prevent" -- I can't make out the other word, "the 22 environment through spills, leakage, use, disposal, 23 vaporization or otherwise." 24 Q Okay. Can you try to make out the other side 25 of the document? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069467 109 1 A I'll try. 2 Q It says "Caution." 3 A "Caution, contains chlorinatedhydrocarbons, 4 avoid prolonged breathing of vapors or mists, avoid 5 contact" -- 6 Q That's good enough. I just wanted to get an 7 idea of what this said. Mr. Papageorge, what is a 8 chlorinated hydrocarbon? 9 A That describes a class of chemicals that all 10 contain carbon, hydrogen, and chlorine, and PCB's are 11 part of that family of chemicals. 12 Q Okay. Thank you. And was it a custom and 13 habit of Monsanto in and around 1970 to pass these out 14 to customers to put on their containers when they 15 returned wastes to Monsanto, waste PCB's to Monsanto? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And that was done as a course of practice at 18 Monsanto during that time period; is that correct? 19 A It was. 20 Q Do you recall whether, by the late 1970's, 21 Monsanto had adopted guidelines for proper control of 22 PCB's that were given out to customers? 23 A I recall a draft document that was prepared 24 and shared with customers for comments. 25 Q What who prepared that document? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069468 110 1 A The document I have in mind is one that I 2 prepared. 3 Q Can we go off the air for a minute? 4 (An off the record discussion was held at 5 this point.) 6 Q (By Mr. Centola) You just mentioned that you 7 prepared a document concerning disposal of PCB's, or 8 curbing of PCB's; is that correct? 9 A It was a document intended to offer some 10 guidance on how to handle liquid spills or leakage, how 11 to handle contaminated solid waste, and how to control 12 vaporization of the material. 13 Q Was this ever put into a final form? 14 A No. The draft form seemed to satisfy the 15 customer needs, and -- 16 Q Let me ask you this. You sent this draft 17 document to your customers? 18 A Only when the customer raised questions of 19 this nature would I offer to share the document, asking 20 him to review it and also to comment on it as to 21 whether it was appropriate for his needs, what 22 revisions he would propose to it, and so on. 23 Q Okay. So the document you're talking about, 24 then, is not one that was sent out generally; this was 25 only sent out per request? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069469 111 1 A Not only request, but sometimes I would offer 2 it. 3 Q Right. 4 A It was on a person to person basis, really, 5 that it was issued. 6 Q Let me ask you this. Did the guidelines for 7 proper control of PCB's that you were considering 8 include not letting Aroclor onto the floor in work 9 areas? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did it include placing curbs around sumps in 12 floors? 13 A Yes, it did. 14 Q And did it include providing forwater 15 overflows to pass through a settling basin? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Did it include vacuum system vent wastes to 18 be pumped to a settling basin? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Did it include using drip catch trays which 21 would be used in moving pregnated materials? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Did it include curbing that should be placed 24 alongside of conveyers that may spill PCB's? 25 A It included curbing, I don't know that it TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069470 112 1 limited to conveyers. 2 Q Okay. Did it include taking every effort to 3 contain waste materials so as to eliminate the use of 4 speedy dryer fullers (phonetic) to pick up that 5 material? 6 A It did. 7 Q And this is the kind of material that, as of 8 the late 1970's and '71, you were imparting to 9 customers, sir? 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q In fact, it was part of your employment 12 practice at Monsanto to impart this type of information 13 to your customers; is that correct? 14 A It was part of my assigned work, yes. 15 Q Right. And you, in fact, did that? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Was it part of your assigned work at Monsanto 18 to keep abreast of the developments that were taking 19 place in the government towards regulating the use and 20 disposal of PCB's? 21 A It was. 22 Q And do you have a recollection of ever, of an 23 -- strike that. Do you have a recollection -- strike 24 that. Go on to another subject. Did you ever hear of 25 NEMA, N-E-M-A? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069471 113 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q And what is NEMA? 3 A It's the, it's a trade association, industry 4 association, it's the National Electrical Manufacturers 5 Association. 6 Q What's the purpose of that organization or 7 association? 8 A Oh, I don't pose to know their charter or 9 reason for existing. All I know is that companies that 10 manufacture electrical equipment can become members of 11 this organization to share whatever the industry feels 12 is appropriate. 13 Q Did Monsanto become a member of NEMA? 14 A No. 15 Q Did you ever give any presentations to NEMA? 16 A I did, yes. 17 Q And did NEMA ever come, develop any standards 18 for use and disposal of PCB's? 19 A Not NEMA per se -- well, they issued proposed 20 standards. 21 Q Right. Let me back up again, and I'm sorry 22 to do this to you, and mark this as Papageorge 15. 23 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 15 marked for 24 identification by the court reporter.) 25 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay, I've just placed TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069472 114 1 before the witness a document, a two page document that 2 I have had marked as Exhibit 15, which is dated April, 3 1972, and addressed to Dear Sir, and appears to be 4 prepared by W.B. Papageorge. Do you recognize this 5 document, sir? 6 A I do. 7 Q On the second page, do you see that 8 signature? 9 A I do. 10 Q Is that your signature? 11 A It is. 12 Q Was this document, in fact, prepared by you, 13 sir? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And was this document prepared by you during 16 the course of your employment at Monsanto? 17 A It was. 18 Q Was the information you received and put out 19 through this document information you received during 20 the course of that employment? 21 A It was. 22 Q And was that information put onto this 23 document at or about April of 1972? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And was a copy of this document maintained in TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069473 115 1 the files of Monsanto during the ordinary course of 2 that business, sir? 3 A It was. 4 Q In fact, sir, whatis this document? 5 A This is a letter that was mailed to customers 6 on record as of April, 1972, of Monsanto who were 7 purchasing PCB type products. 8 Q Is it a fact that, as part of custom and 9 habit and during the regular course of business at 10 Monsanto, that this document was, in fact, sent to all 11 customers of dielectric fluids that were on record as 12 of April of 1972? 13 MR. SUMMERS: I object, speculation. 14 A It is. 15 Q (By Mr. Centola) In fact, that's what you did 16 with this document? 17 A That's right. 18 Q You did that yourself, did you not? 19 A Exactly. 20 Q Okay. What was the, what was the purpose of 21 sending this document out, sir? 22 A Well, the purpose is to inform the customer 23 that requests from government agencies regarding sales 24 of PCB's were increasing, and that it was possible that 25 the day might come when Monsanto would have to drop its TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069474 116 1 longstanding policy of not divulging customers and 2 products and amounts. And we wanted them to know that 3 we may be in a position where we would have to comply 4 with the government's requests. 5 Q Okay. In fact, you make reference on the 6 second page, do you not, to a recent FDA notice in the 7 Federal Register? Do you see that? 8 A Yes, I do see it, yes. 9 Q Was it part of your practice to keep your 10 customers informed of publications in the Federal 11 Register concerning PCB's? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Do you know if, in fact, a copy of that 14 Federal Register was sent with this notice? 15 A I don't recall sending a copy with this 16 letter. I just referred to it. 17 Q Okay. Of these letters that we've been going 18 through, some have been sent by Mr. Benignus, some sent 19 by you, some sent by Bryant. Is there a reason why the 20 letters were sent by various individuals as opposed to 21 one particular individual? 22 A Oh, I suspect it may consist of several 23 reasons that might apply at any particular time. One 24 is a case of who has the latest knowledge that's to be 25 shared, another is a matter of workload, and sometimes TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069475 117 1 it's a matter of how much emphasis do you want to put 2 on a particular topic, the thought being that some 3 individuals would be perceived as a different kind of 4 source than others. So in each case, it would be 5 handled on a case basis. 6 Q Okay. You mentioned that, on this particular 7 document, that one of the reasons why you sent it was 8 because you were concerned that you might have to 9 disclose customer information? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And you also sent it because of the FDA 12 notice? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Isn't it a fact, too, that you also sent it 15 because of the reasons given in the last paragraph, 16 which was to continue to urge your customers to 17 "thoroughly review your procedures and inspect your 18 facilities to insure that extreme care is taken in the 19 handling, use, storage, and disposal of these 20 materials"? 21 A Yes. That was a perennial reason, really. 22 Every opportunity I had, I included it just to 23 reemphasize. 24 Q Going back to Papageorge 5 for a moment, 25 which is the second, and then the second page of the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069476 118 1 document, we have what was, what we referred to as a 2 customer list. Do you see that? 3 A I do. 4 Q In this particular case, it's a redacted 5 customer list, do you see that? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Okay. Does this indicate to you, by the way, 8 that this Energy Systems was, in fact, a customer on 9 record as of 9/15/1970? 10 A It does. 11 Q And as long as Energy Systems or Aydin was 12 purchasing, they would be a customer of record, is that 13 true? 14 A Certainly. 15 MR. SUMMERS: I object, move to strike, 16 speculation. 17 Q (By Mr. Centola) Was that the practice and 18 custom of Monsanto during that time period? 19 A Yes. 20 Q To maintain a record of customers who were 21 purchasing PCB's from them? 22 A Oh, yes. 23 Q And those records were maintained and kept 24 throughout the entire course these customers purchased 25 PCB's from Monsanto; is that correct, sir? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069477 119 1 A That is correct. 2 Q Thank you. This will be Papageorge 16. 3 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 16 marked for 4 identification by the court reporter.) 5 Q (By Mr. Centola) My, this is what I've put 6 before Mr. Papageorge, is a letter on Monsanto 7 stationery dated August 6, 1970. It's two pages. It 8 appears to be prepared by Paul G. Benignus? 9 A That is correct. 10 Q Have you ever seen it before? 11 A Yes, I have. 12 Q Are you familiar with Mr. Benignus' 13 signature? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Have you seen it in the past? 16 A I have. 17 Q Do you recognize his signature? 18 A I do. 19 Q Is that his signature on the second page, 20 sir? 21 A It is. 22 Q What is this document? 23 A This document is a letter describing the 24 modified PCB, which was determined to be more apt to 25 degrade, and suggests to the person receiving this TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069478 120 1 letter that the material had been developed and is 2 available in small quantities for testing purposes, and 3 that these small quantities were on their way to the 4 person receiving this letter. 5 Q Is this a form letter, sir? 6 A Yes. It was, the same wording was mailed to 7 all of the capacitor customers on record in August of 8 1970. 9 Q Was it also mailed to transformer customers; 10 do you know? 11 A No, it would not relate to the transformer 12 people that I'm aware of. 13 Q But if they were making, they were purchasing 14 dielectrics for capacitors, it would go to them, sir? 15 A Yes. This was intended for capacitor use. 16 Q Okay. And who prepared this document? 17 A Mr. Benignus. 18 Q Did you participate in that preparation? 19 A I saw his earlier versions and we made some 20 changes in them, and this is the final approved 21 version. 22 Q Okay. So did Mr. Benignus and you work on 23 this document during the course of your employment at 24 Monsanto? 25 A And others, yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069479 121 1 Q Okay. And did you obtain the information 2 that's in this document during the course of your 3 employment at Monsanto? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And did you put it into this document on or 6 about the time you obtained that information? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And was a copy of this document maintained in 9 the files at Monsanto as a part of the regular business 10 of Monsanto? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And was it custom and practice and, in fact, 13 was this document sent out as a regular course of 14 business at Monsanto to customers who bought dielectric 15 fluids in the capacitor industry? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Thank you. This is from the production. 18 This is, let's take them one at a time. Just give me a 19 moment. I'm going to mark as a multiple page exhibit 20 Papageorge 17. It's seven page exhibit, date stamp 21 numbers AYD 000092 through 000098. This document is 22 actually a number of letters. 23 The first is a two page letter dated 24 February 4, 1972, the second -- and prepared by Howard 25 Bergen; the second is an undated letter to Dear Sir, TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069480 122 1 two pages prepared by T.L. Gossage, G-O-S-S-A-G-E; and 2 the third appears to be a letter to Purchasing Agent 3 and dated February 28, 1972; the fourth is a letter to 4 Plant Engineer, dated February 28, 1972; and the last 5 page is a blank sheet with Energy Systems, 2180 (sic) 6 Hanover Street, Palo Alto, California. 7 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 17 marked for 8 identification by the court reporter.) 9 Q (By Mr. Centola) Could you please take a look 10 at that document, and my question to you is, do you 11 recognize any portion of it, or all of it? 12 A I recognize all portions of this document. 13 Q Okay. Let's start with the first letter. 14 That's the February 4, 1970, letter, okay? On the 15 second page, there is a signature. 16 A I seeis it. 17 Q Is that the signature of Howard Bergen? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Okay. Are you familiar with his hand? 20 A Yes, I am. 21 Q Have you seen his signature in the past? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And, in fact, you recognize that as being his 24 signature, sir? 25 A I do. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069481 123 1 Q Okay. This, who was this letter sent to, 2 sir? Strike that. Do you see the handwriting on the 3 face of that letter? 4 A I do see that, yes. 5 Q Do you recognize that handwriting? 6 A I do not. 7 Q When was the first time you saw this letter? 8 A Back at the, on or about the date of this, 9 that's on this letter, February, 1972. 10 Q Did you participate in any way in the 11 preparation of this letter? 12 A I was privileged to see a proposed draft of 13 this letter; yes. 14 Q Who showed you the proposed draft? 15 A Mr. Bergen. 16 Q Did you give him any comments with respect to 17 the draft? 18 A I recall commenting, but I don't recall the 19 specifics. 20 Q Did Mr. Bergen prepare this letter during the 21 course of his employment at Monsanto? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And did he acquire the information that was 24 put into this letter during the course of his 25 employment there? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069482 124 1 A Yes. 2 Q And upon receiving that information, did he 3 put it into this letter on or about February of 1972? 4 A He did. 5 Q And, in fact -- or was a copy of this letter 6 maintained at Monsanto as a course of its business, 7 regular course of its business there? 8 A It was. 9 Q And was this letter sent to anyone? 10 A Yes, it was. 11 Q And who was this letter sent to? 12 A This was sent to customers of Monsanto who 13 purchased PCB type dielectric fluids who, as of 14 February, 1972, had not signed the agreement that's 15 referred to in the second paragraph. 16 Q Okay. We'll get to that in a moment. Was 17 this sent to all customers of Monsanto that purchased 18 dielectric fluids, or fluids containing PCB's, I should 19 say? 20 A It was sent to those who had yet to sign the 21 agreement. 22 Q So it was sent to all those customers who 23 purchased PCB products who were yet to sign the 24 agreement? 25 A Yes. These products were the dielectric TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069483 125 1 products at that time. 2 Q All right. So this was to manufacturers of 3 capacitors and transformers and the like; is that 4 correct? 5 A That's correct. 6 Q And was this letter sent out as custom and 7 habit and as a regular course of Monsanto's business 8 practice to those customers who had not yet signed the 9 agreement that you spoke of? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. Now, let's go to that agreement. The 12 letter starts out by saying, "We are writing to advise 13 you that Monsanto has adopted certain policies with 14 respect to its further sale and delivery of all 15 polychlorinated biphenyl products used as dielectric 16 fluids including but not limited to those sold under 17 trade names such as Aroclor, Inerteen, and Pyranol, and 18 under the generic term Askarel." Those are the -- is 19 that correct? 20 A That is correct. 21 Q And those are the items that we discussed 22 earlier today; is that correct? 23 A That is correct. 24 Q And it goes on to say, "Effective 25 immediately, Monsanto will sell and deliver these TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069484 126 1 products only to manufacturers of electrical equipment 2 or components who utilize the products as dielectric 3 fluids and who have entered into agreement to indemnify 4 and hold harmless Monsanto in the use of those 5 products." Do you see that, sir? 6 A I do. 7 Q It goes on to say, "The two copies of such an 8 agreement are attached. The acceptance by Monsanto of 9 such an agreement is subject to receipt of financial 10 and other information from you (such as evidence of 11 adequate insurance protection) which, in Monsanto's 12 opinion, makes the agreement meaningful." Do you see 13 that, sir? 14 A I do. 15 Q Can you tell me when it is that Monsanto 16 decided not to sell anymore dielectric fluids to its 17 customers before they entered into this agreement to 18 indemnify and hold Monsanto harmless? 19 MR. SUMMERS: I'd object, unintelligible. 20 A Did I hear correctly, you're asking me when 21 did Monsanto make that decision? 22 Q (By Mr. Centola) Yes. 23 A It was made, to the best of my knowledge, in 24 December of 1971. 25 Q Okay. Who was involved in making the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069485 127 1 decision to have the dielectric customers enter into 2 this hold harmless agreement with Monsanto? 3 A I personally don't know. I can only 4 speculate. 5 Q Were you kept abreast of this development, 6 sir? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And as part of that keeping you abreast, Mr. 9 Bergen showed you this letter; is that correct? 10 A As part of that, yes. 11 Q Okay. And, in fact, did Monsanto require its 12 purchasers of dielectric fluids to enter into such a 13 hold harmless agreement? 14 A It did eventually, yes. 15 Q And was that in 1972? 16 A Yes. 17 Q I'd like to show you, I'd like to mark this 18 as Papageorge Exhibit, what is it, 18. 19 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 18 marked for 20 identification by the court reporter.) 21 Q (By Mr. Centola) What I've marked as an 22 exhibit as Papageorge 18 is a seven page document, the 23 first page of which is entitled Special Undertaking by 24 Purchasers of Polychlorinated Biphenyls, and it's two 25 pages long. And the second portion of the document is TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069486 128 1 called "Feature, PCB's -- Prevalent and Persistent," 2 and it's an article by Carl G. Gustafson. Okay? 3 Before you go on to that, sir, let's go to 4 the next paragraph of Exhibit 17, okay? Paragraph 3. 5 That paragraph states, "As you are undoubtedly aware, 6 studies indicate PCB's may be accumulating in the 7 environment. In some instances, PCB's have been found 8 in food or in the food chain. For your information, 9 attached is an article by Carl G. Gustafson of the 10 Federal Water Quality Administration appearing in 11 vEnvironmental Science & Technology' which deals with 12 this subject. Because of Monsanto's concern over this 13 problem, we have discontinued sales of PCB's except as 14 use of dielectric fluids in electrical equipment and 15 components." Do you see that paragraph, sir? 16 A I do. 17 Q Okay. Now, going back to Exhibit 18, again, 18 in fact, that portion of the exhibit which purports to 19 be an article written by Mr. Gustafson. Have you ever 20 seen that article before? 21 A I have. 22 Q Okay. Do you know if that article that's in 23 Exhibit 18 is the article that, in fact, was sent along 24 with the letter dated February 4, 1972, which is 25 Exhibit 17 of this deposition? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069487 129 1 A It was. 2 Q And that was also sent in the normal course 3 to the same people that the letter was sent to, 4 correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And that was part of the continuing efforts 7 of Monsanto to keep its customers abreast of the 8 developments of what was going on with PCB's and their 9 effect on the environment; is that correct? 10 A That is correct. 11 Q Now, on the first part of this document which 12 is Exhibit 18, which that purports to be a special 13 undertaking, do you see that, sir? 14 A I do. 15 Q Have you ever seen that before? 16 A I have. 17 Q And when did you see that? 18 A December, 1971. 19 Q And is that the special undertaking that is 20 being made reference to here in the letter dated 21 February 4, 1972? 22 A It is. 23 Q Okay. And that, too, was sent along to 24 customers in the regular course as described when you 25 described how they were sent with respect to the letter TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069488 130 1 dated February 4, 1972? 2 A That is correct. 3 Q And in fact, this whole -- why don't we take 4 a break. 5 (A short recess was taken at this point.) 6 Q (By Mr. Centola) Let's go back to Exhibit 17, 7 okay? On the bottom of Exhibit 17, there are, what I 8 refer to as date stamp number, it says AYD 000092, do 9 you see that? 10 A I do. 11 Q Do you know the significance of that, sir? 12 A Not really. I can guess what it's all about. 13 Q Okay. Do you know, sir, if client files are 14 maintained at Monsanto? 15 A I do not. 16 Q Okay. Let me go on to the next letter in 17 this document, this exhibit, which would be a letter 18 that's undated and starts out Dear Sir. Turn to the 19 second page of that letter, which is 00095 date stamp. 20 A I see it. 21 Q Do you see the name there? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Who is Mr. Gossage? 24 A He was the marketing director of the group 25 that sold dielectric fluids containing PCB's. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069489 131 1 Q And when was he the marketing director of 2 that group? 3 A Oh, I believe late 1971, '72, '73, that 4 period of time. 5 Q Okay. Are you familiar with his signature, 6 sir? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Have you seen his signature before? 9 A I have, yes. 10 Q Do you recognize the signature on that second 11 page? 12 A I do. 13 Q Whose signature is that? 14 A T.L. Gossage. 15 Q Okay. Now, on the first page of that 16 letter, which is 000094, there is some handwriting. Do 17 you recognize that? 18 A That looks to me like Mr. Gossage's 19 handwriting. 20 Q And can you read what it says to us? 21 A "Letter to transformer manufacturers," an 22 abbreviation, M-F-R-E-R-S, "and supply of top-up and 23 service shops." 24 Q What does that refer to, "top-up and service 25 shops," do you know? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069490 132 1 A These are companies in the business of 2 servicing transformers in place and in service to check 3 to see how they are performing and whether or not they 4 need some liquid added to the transformers. Very much 5 like the oil in your car, add a little fluid to bring 6 it up to the right level. 7 Q Okay. I'm sorry, can you read that back to 8 me? 9 (Last answer read back by the court 10 reporter.) 11 Q (By Mr. Centola) So these would be not only 12 manufacturers of transformers, but people who actually 13 maintain transformers; is that what you mean? 14 A That's what the note indicates, yes. 15 Q Okay. What was the purpose of this 16 particular letter? Strike that. Did you see this 17 letter before it went out? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Did Mr. Gossage show it to you? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did you help prepare the letter? 22 A I reviewed drafts of proposed drafts and 23 commented. 24 Q Did you do that during the course of your 25 employment at Monsanto? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069491 133 1 A I did. 2 Q And, in fact, did Mr. Gossage prepare this 3 letter during the course of, regular course of his 4 employment at Monsanto? 5 A He did. 6 Q And did he, as a regular course of his 7 business, acquire the information that is in this 8 letter? 9 A Yes, he did. 10 Q And did he, during the course of his business 11 at Monsanto, take that information and put it onto this 12 letter as it appears here? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And, in fact, was a copy of this letter 15 maintained as a regular course of business in the 16 business files at Monsanto? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And, in fact, was thisletter sent out, sir? 19 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, speculation. 20 A It was. 21 Q (By Mr. Centola)How do youknow that it was 22 sent out, sir? 23 A Well, I'm aware of the customer on record 24 list at the time. 25 Q Right. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069492 134 1 A I was able to monitor some of the activity 2 involved in typing the letter and addressing it and 3 stuffing it in envelopes, all that activity took place 4 right outside my door. I did not, of course, look at 5 each and every letter, but I knew the activity was 6 going on, I knew the list they were working from, I 7 knew that they kept copies of who received that letter. 8 Q And through your experience, then, through 9 your observations and as part of your function at 10 Monsanto, it was your understanding that copies of this 11 letter went out to customers of Monsanto? Which 12 customers? 13 A Customers of dielectric fluids containing 14 PCB's as of early 1972. 15 Q And this was done as a part of the custom and 16 habit and during the regular course of Monsanto's 17 practice? 18 A It was. 19 Q Okay. Let's go to the next letter in this 20 file, which is still in Exhibit 17, dated February 28, 21 1972, Attention: Purchasing Agent, and it's, again, by 22 T.L. Gossage. Then there's a second one on the very 23 next page, appears to be the same letter except 24 Attention: Plant Engineer. Do you see that? 25 A I do. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069493 135 1 Q Okay. Sir, is it your understanding that a 2 copy of this -- strike that. Again, do you recognize 3 Mr. Gossage's signature on -- 4 A I do. 5 Q -- on both pages, on both of those 6 February 28, 1972, letters? 7 A I do. 8 Q And, in fact, is that his signature? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. Did you see these letters before they 11 went out, sir? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Did you, again, participate in making 14 comments and the like with respect to the drafting of 15 these letters? 16 A I did. 17 Q And, in fact, did you do that during the 18 course of your employment at Monsanto? 19 A I did. 20 Q And you did that in furtherance of that 21 employment; is that correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And did Mr. Gossage, in fact, prepare these 24 letters in furtherance of his business at Monsanto? 25 A Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069494 136 1 Q Okay. And were copies of these letters 2 maintained at Monsanto as business records? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Okay. And who were these letters sent out 5 to, sir? 6 A These letters were sent to customers on 7 record as purchasing PCB type dielectric fluids from 8 Monsanto as of the date of these letters, which is 9 February 28, 1972. 10 Q Okay. And that was, they were sent out as 11 part of the custom and habit and during the regular 12 course of Monsanto's business; is that correct? 13 A That is correct. 14 Q Is there a reason why, in this particular 15 letter, it was sent out to both purchasing agents and 16 plant engineers? 17 A The reasoning was one of, we wanted to make 18 certain that the proper person at the customer's 19 location received this information. And at that time, 20 we decided in order to make certain that somebody paid 21 attention to the mail, that we would send it, really, 22 to three individuals is what these three letters 23 indicate. One is to the person on file with our 24 records, who may be the president of the company or a 25 plant manager or some other title, or he may be the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069495 137 1 purchasing agent. It varied from customer to 2 customer. And the other two were specifically 3 addressed to the purchasing agent and the plant 4 engineer. 5 Q You stated that normally the letter would be 6 sent to the person on file; is that correct? 7 A That is correct, yes. 8 Q So if we turn to Papageorge Exhibit 5, okay, 9 again, which is a letter dated September 15, 1970? 10 A Correct. 11 Q On the second page, on that customer list 12 that we have, we have Energy Systems, Palo Alto, 13 California, Mrs. Domer? 14 A That's what it indicates, yes. 15 Q And so she would be the person on file that 16 you're referring to? 17 A Correct. 18 Q And so when you testified the letters would 19 go out to customers on file during the course of this 20 deposition, it would be Mrs. Domer who the letter would 21 be sent to; is that correct? 22 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, speculation. 23 A If Mrs. Domer's name appeared on our records, 24 she was the one that received it. 25 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay. So it was custom and TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069496 138 1 practice, and it was the habit of Monsanto to send the 2 letters that we've been discussing to the person on 3 record; is that correct? 4 A That is correct. 5 Q And, in fact, as of 9/15/1970, Mrs. Domer was 6 the person of record for Energy Systems; is that 7 correct? 8 A At that time, yes. 9 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, speculation. 10 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay. On the last page of 11 this document, do you see that? 12 A I do. 13 Q What is that, do you know? 14 A This is a copy of the page on which the 15 addressees of the previous three letters were listed. 16 Q Okay. Now, there's only one addressee here. 17 A That is correct. 18 Q And why is that, sir? 19 A Because -- 20 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, speculation. 21 MR. CENTOLA: Well, I'll have Counsel, I 22 think it's fair to have Counsel answer this question. 23 MR. CARNEY: Well, I think this witness knows 24 the answer. I could give the answer myself. 25 A We, as a practice, don't divulge the Monsanto TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069497 139 1 customers who are not involved with this particular 2 issue. 3 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay. So in this, and 4 essentially, the rest of this document has been 5 redacted? 6 A Correct. 7 Q Do you know, sir, you mentioned that this 8 last page relates to the previous three letters. There 9 are four previous letters. Do you know if it relates 10 to that first letter? 11 A I'm sorry, I meant all four in this 12 particular exhibit. 13 Q Okay. Thank you. Why don't we mark this as 14 Papageorge 19. 15 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 19 marked for 16 identification by the court reporter.) 17 MR. CENTOLA: This is in the production. 18 MR. SUMMERS: 19 is? 19 Q (By Mr. Centola) Yes, the one I've just 20 marked. Mr. Papageorge, do you recognize what's been 21 put before you? 22 A I do. 23 Q What is this? 24 A This is the special undertaking requested by 25 Monsanto in early 1972 of purchasers of PCB type TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069498 140 1 dielectric fluids, and it's signed by the president of 2 Energy Systems and Monsanto Company vice president. 3 MR. SUMMERS: I'd object, speculation. 4 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay. What is the name -- 5 let's go to the second, let's go to the second page 6 under Monsanto Company. What is that name? 7 A C.P. Cunningham. 8 Q Who is C.P. Cunningham? 9 A At the time, Mr. Cunningham was the vice 10 president who was the managing director of the Monsanto 11 Industrial Chemicals Company and operating unit of 12 Monsanto. 13 Q Do you know who Mr. George Hoberg is? 14 A I do not. 15 Q Have you ever seen this particular 16 undertaking before, that is, the one that Energy 17 Systems and Aydin Company purported to -- 18 A I believe I saw this yesterday for the first 19 time. 20 Q Prior to yesterday, did you see it? 21 A Not this document, no. 22 Q In light of the fact that it became 23 Monsanto's practice and course of business in late 1971 24 and early 1972 to have its customers of dielectric 25 fluids enter into special undertakings as a condition TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069499 141 1 for their continuing to purchase those products, do you 2 have any reason to believe that Aydin or Energy 3 Systems did not enter into this agreement if, in fact, 4 they were purchasing PCB products subsequent to 1972? 5 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, unintelligible. 6 A The fact that they received material after 7 1972 is definitely an indication that they had signed 8 an agreement. Otherwise they would not have received 9 material. 10 Q (By Mr. Centola) Do you have any knowledge of 11 any of your customers after 1972 who were allowed to 12 purchase PCB containing materials without entering into 13 the special undertaking that is before you today as 14 Exhibit 19, as part of Exhibit 19? 15 A I'm not aware of any sales of that type. 16 Q Do you know of any exceptions that were made 17 for any of your customers? 18 A No. 19 Q Would you have known of any exceptions made 20 to any of your customers, Mr. Papageorge? 21 A Eventually, yes, I would have known. 22 Q And none were -- and you knew of none? 23 A None. 24 Q I'll mark this as Papageorge Exhibit 20. 25 It's a six page document, it's in the production, AYD TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069500 142 1 000013 through 000018. The first page is a handwritten 2 memo, appears to be on Energy Systems speed 3 stationery, or memo stationery. The second portion of 4 the document, which is the remaining pages, appear to 5 be minutes of the annual meeting of the Board of 6 Directors of Aydin Corporation held at 100 West Tenth 7 Street, Wilmington, Delaware, at 2:45 p.m. on May 5, 8 1972. 9 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 20 marked for 10 identification by the court reporter.) 11 Q (By Mr. Centola) Have you ever seen that 12 before, Mr. Papageorge? 13 A I have not. 14 Q It says on the first page, "Enclosed is a 15 copy of the minute extract relating to the election of 16 officers on May 5, 1972. If this does not clarify 17 matters, please call me." Do you see that? 18 A I do. 19 Q It's also to Mr. Park. Do you see that? 20 A I see that. 21 Q Who is Mr. Park? 22 A Well, at that time, Mr. Park was a member of 23 Monsanto's Legal Department. 24 Q Okay. Was Mr. Park requiring, do you know, 25 your customers at this period of time to give you TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069501 143 1 assurances that the persons who entered into these 2 special undertakings were, in fact, authorized to do 3 so? 4 A I do not know. 5 Q Do you know if this document that's before 6 you, which is Exhibit 20, came from Monsanto files? 7 A I do not know. 8 Q So you do not know if this was maintained in 9 the files of Monsanto as the regular course of 10 business? 11 A I do not. 12 Q Why don't we mark these in order. These are 13 all from the production in the same stack. This will 14 be Papageorge 21, which is a October 19, 1972, letter, 15 AYD 000024 and 000025. 16 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 21 marked for 17 identification by the court reporter.) 18 MR. CENTOLA: This is a letter dated 19 October 23, 1972, to Howard Bergen from Allan Panitch, 20 P-A-N-I-T-C-H, AYD 000026, and that'll be Papageorge 21 22. 22 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 22 marked for 23 identification by the court reporter.) 24 MR. CENTOLA: This will be a letter, 25 October 23, 1972 -- right, October 31, 1972, to Mr. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069502 144 1 Allan Panitch from Howard S. Bergen, AYD 000027, and 2 that would be Papageorge 23. 24 is a letter dated 3 November 30, 1972, to Mr. Aykan Hakimagnu, 4 H-A-K-I-M-A-G-N-U, first name is A-Y-K-A-N, and it's 5 from H.S. Bergen. And I've marked as Papageorge 6 Exhibit 25 a two page document which is a letter dated 7 3 January '73 to Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Co. from 8 Allan Panitch, and the attachment is a Certificate of 9 Insurance dated December 18, 1972. 10 (Papageorge Exhibits No. 23, 24, and 25 11 marked for identification by the court reporter.) 12 MR. CENTOLA: And the rest I'm going to do 13 collectively. It's a number of letters, but I'm going 14 to identify them collectively. It's from the 15 production. Just to save time. And they're all in the 16 same series of documents, and we'll mark them 17 collectively as Papageorge 26, and they bear the date 18 stamp numbers AYD 000031 through 38. And they are a 19 series of letters going back and forth between Monsanto 20 and Energy Systems Company, a division of Aydin 21 Corporation. 22 MR. SUMMERS: You mean they purport to be? 23 MR. CENTOLA: They purport to be that. 24 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 26 marked for 25 identification by the court reporter.) TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069503 145 1 MR. CENTOLA: And finally, I'm going to mark 2 what purports to be a. Certificates of Insurance with 3 an insuring agreement attached. It's five pages long 4 and it bears the date stamps AYD 000019. This will be 5 Papageorge 27. 6 MR. CARNEY: Did you not mark the January 4, 7 '77? Is that part of the group exhibit? 8 MR. CENTOLA: Yeah. That's part of that. 9 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 27 marked for 10 identification by the court reporter.) 11 MR. CENTOLA: Exhibit 26, I think you're 12 referring to, which is the series of letters, it begins 13 with AYD 000031 through AYD 000039. If I said 14 something else, I apologize. It goes 31 through 39 15 inclusive. 16 MR. SUMMERS: I don't seem to have 39. Oh, 17 sorry. I do. Okay. I've got that, I'm talking about 18 27. 19 MR. CENTOLA: 27 begins with 19 and ends with 20 23. I'm going to ask if I can have somebody's copies 21 so I can look on, because I'm short a copy. 22 MR. CARNEY: You can have mine. 23 MR. CENTOLA: Okay. Mr. Papageorge, let's 24 take them one at a time. 25 MR. CARNEY: Starting with 21? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069504 146 1 Q (By Mr. Centola) Yeah. Thanks. 21 is the, 2 what purports to be a letter dated October 19, 1972, 3 airmailed to Mr. Aykan Hakimagnu, prepared by Howard S. 4 Bergen, Jr., okay? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Have you ever seen this letter before? 7 A I have not. 8 Q Okay. On the top, it says, "Note to Carole 9 Sandifer." Do you know who that is? 10 A At the time, she was a secretary to Mr. 11 Benignus. 12 Q Do you know who Joyce is? 13 A Joyce is Mr. Bergen's secretary. 14 Q Do you know who Mister -- I shouldn't say 15 Mister -- do you know who C. Paton is? 16 A Yes, Dr. Paton reported to Mr. Benignus. 17 Q What kind of doctor was he? 18 A Chemical doctor, chemistry. 19 Q How about C. Sandifer? 20 A Well, that's the same person that this 21 notice is addressed to. Carole. She is a secretary to 22 Mr. Benignus and Mr. Paton. 23 Q And Mr. Park, is that the, a lawyer in Legal 24 Department? 25 A Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069505 147 1 Q And we know who Mr. Gossage is? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Now, do you see there's a handwritten note on 4 the top right hand corner of that letter? 5 A I do see something here, yes. 6 Q Do you recognize the hand? 7 A I do not. 8 Q Did you ever hear the name Panitch before, 9 P-A-N-I-T-C-H? 10 A No. 11 Q Does the name Aykan Hakimagnu ring a bell? 12 A No, it doesn't. 13 Q Do you know if this letter came from the 14 files maintained by Monsanto? 15 A I don't know, really. I can only surmise 16 from the information on it. 17 Q Okay. All right. If you go to Exhibit 22, 18 have you ever seen this letter before? 19 A You have not. 20 Q This is a letter, October 23, 1972, 21 Attention: Howard Bergen, from Allan Panitch. Was Mr. 22 Bergen the person in charge of making sure that these, 23 these special undertakings were, in fact, endorsed? 24 A He had the ultimate responsibility, and I 25 don't know if he had delegated any portion of it to TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069506 148 1 someone else or not. 2 Q Okay. In this -- well, strike that. Again, 3 you don't know who George Hoberg is? 4 A I do not. 5 Q Okay. Take the next letter. Exhibit 23, 6 which is dated October 31, 1972, to Mr. Allan Panitch 7 from a Howard S. Bergen, Jr. On the top right hand 8 corner it's a bcc, which I assume is a blind copy; is 9 that correct? 10 A That is correct. 11 Q What is the BS -- does the B2SH represent? 12 A Oh, that's the building, the floor of the 13 building, and the mailing area in that building. 14 Q Does it reference, which says, "for Redbook 15 file," what does that indicate to you? 16 A I do not know. 17 Q Again, have you ever seen this letter before? 18 A No, I have not. 19 Q Exhibit 24, which is a letterdated 20 November 30, 1972, to Mr. Hakimagnu? 21 A I see it. 22 Q From H.S. Bergen, have youever seen this 23 letter before? 24 A I have not. 25 Q Who is Mr. Hansen? We're referring now to TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069507 149 1 the top right hand corner. 2 A Doug Hansen was, he's a field salesman. 3 Q Who is C. Paton? 4 A He's the Dr. Paton we talked about earlier. 5 Q Right. Who is W.N. Maddox, M-A-D-D-O-X? 6 A Mr. Maddox is a member of a Customer Service 7 Department. 8 Q Do you have any idea why so many people who 9 have been blind copied on this particular letter? 10 A I do not. 11 Q And again, you don't know if this came from 12 Monsanto files, do you? 13 A That is correct. 14 Q Okay. Let's go to Exhibit 25, which purports 15 to be a letter on Energy Systems letterhead dated 16 3 January 1973 addressed to Monsanto Industrial 17 Chemicals Co., Attention: H.S. Bergen, from Allan 18 Panitch, Manager Contract Administration. And the 19 second page being, what purports to be a Certificate of 20 Insurance from Employers Commercial Union Companies 21 dated December 18, 1972. Have you seen any portions of 22 this document before? 23 A I have not. 24 Q Okay. Were you familiar with a practice put 25 in place by Monsanto requiring that Certificates of TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069508 150 1 Insurance be issued to Monsanto from its customers? 2 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, assumes that there 3 was such a practice. 4 MR. CENTOLA: I asked if there was such a 5 practice. Was there such a practice? 6 MR. SUMMERS: You said, "are you familiar." 7 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay. Was there such a 8 practice put into place? 9 A There was a requirement, to my understanding, 10 that those who signed the agreement -- 11 Q The special undertaking? 12 A The special undertaking, had to demonstrate a 13 financial capability to make the agreement worthwhile, 14 or have any meaning. They could do that by submitting 15 a Certificate of Insurance, if that was the method that 16 they chose. 17 Q So along with the special undertaking, they 18 had to submit some kind of financial assurance that 19 would give that hold harmless agreement substance? 20 A That is correct. 21 Q Okay. After 1972, were you aware of any 22 customer of dielectric fluids that was provided with, 23 continued to be provided with dielectric fluids 24 containing PCB's that did not give such financial 25 insurances? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069509 151 1 A I am not aware of any such sales. 2 Q Would you have been made aware sometime if 3 such as exception had been made? 4 A Eventually I would have been made aware, yes. 5 Q And you are aware of no exception? 6 A That is correct. 7 Q Indeed, that was the custom and habit and as 8 a part of the regular course of Monsanto's business 9 that kind of financial assurance was required of all 10 customers of date; is that correct? All customers of 11 dielectric fluids who wanted to continue to do so post12 1972? 13 A I'm aware of two exceptions. 14 Q Okay. 15 A Westinghouse and General Electric were deemed 16 to be of sufficient financial strength they did not 17 need to demonstrate it in this fashion. 18 Q Other than those two companies, are you aware 19 of any exceptions? 20 A Not that I know of. 21 Q But to answer my question, however -- why 22 don't we read it back. 23 (Indicated question read back by the court 24 reporter.) 25 Q (By Mr. Centola) Is the answer to your TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069510 152 1 question yes, except for Westinghouse and General 2 Electric? 3 A That was my answer, yes, sir. 4 Q Okay. Let's take a look at Exhibit 26. 5 First page of that exhibit is a letter purporting to be 6 from Howard Bergen to Aykan Hakimagnu dated January 9, 7 1973. Do you see the handwriting on that letter? 8 A I do. 9 Q "Carole P-L-S-E," which I assume means 10 please, "issue memo," do you see that? 11 A I do. 12 Q Do you recognize that handwriting? 13 A I do not. 14 Q On the bottom, it's a cc to Panitch, do you 15 see that? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Do you recognize that hand? 18 A I do not. 19 Q Okay. And again, have you ever seen this 20 letter before? 21 A No, I have not. 22 Q And you do not know if this came from 23 Monsanto's files? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q Let's go to the next page. Why don't we do TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069511 153 1 this to save time. No, wait. I saw something 2 different. The next letter is November 28, 1973, to 3 Mr. Hakimagnu from Howard S. Bergen. Again, do you 4 rec -- have you ever seen this letter before? 5 A I have not. 6 Q And you don't know if it came from Monsanto's 7 files, do you? 8 A No. 9 Q Okay. The next letter, November 27, 1974, 10 dated to Mr. Hakimagnu? 11 A I see it. 12 Q From H.S. Bergen, do you see that? 13 A I do. 14 Q Okay. Do you see a signature at the bottom 15 of that page? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And again, have you ever seen Mr. Bergen's 18 signature in the past? 19 A Yes, I have. 20 Q And Mr. Bergen is who? 21 A He was the director of the business group 22 that sold dielectric fluids that contained PCB's. 23 Q And is he also the person who was 24 responsible, who had the ultimate responsibility for 25 making sure that the special undertakings were endorsed TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069512 154 1 by purchasers of PCB's? 2 A That is correct. 3 Q And have you seen his signature in the past? 4 A I have. 5 Q And is that, in fact, hissignature? 6 A Doesn't look like it. 7 Q Okay. Do you know if his secretary would 8 sign his name to things on occasion? 9 A That is possible when Mr. Bergen is 10 traveling, yes. 11 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, speculation, move to 12 strike. 13 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay, the next, let's take 14 the next three letters collectively. December 27, '74, 15 December 1, '75, and December -- I mean November 30, 16 1976. And have you ever seen any of these letters 17 before? 18 A I have not. 19 Q And do you know if they, in fact, came from 20 Monsanto's files? 21 A Do I know personally? No. 22 Q Okay. By the way, on the last letter, the 23 November 30, 1976, letter, there's a name on the top of 24 it in hand, Carol Jordan, do you see that? November 25 30, 1976? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069513 155 1 A November 30, 1976? 2 Q Do you recognize that handwriting? 3 A I do not, no. 4 Q On the next page, which is a letter dated 5 December 1, '75, to Mr. Brad Vanders, V-A-N-D-E-R-S? 6 A I see it. 7 Q Okay. Do you recognize the handwriting on 8 that? 9 A I do not. 10 Q Have you ever seen this letter before? 11 A I have not. 12 Q The next letter, November 30, 1976, same 13 question. Have you ever seen this before? 14 A I have not. 15 Q The next letter, January 4, 1977. Have you 16 ever seen this letter before? 17 A I have not. 18 Q Do you know who David Dry is? 19 A I do not know. 20 Q And the last document which purports to be a 21 Certificate of Insurance and an insurance policy, have 22 you ever seen that before? 23 A I have not. 24 Q I would like to have you go back, just for a 25 moment, to Exhibit 15, if I can find it. Why don't you TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069514 156 1 look through there, Mr. Papageorge. Why don't we go 2 off for a moment. 3 (A brief recess was taken at this point in 4 time.) 5 Q (By Mr. Centola) Mr. Papageorge, you have in 6 front of you what has already been marked as Exhibit 7 15, and which you've already identified as something 8 you prepared during the course of your business at 9 Monsanto. You also testified that you, in fact, sent 10 it to a number of customers. Do you remember that, 11 sir? 12 A I did. 13 Q Do you recall if you, in fact, sent that to 14 the office of the president of your customers? 15 A I don't recall whether it was the president 16 or the person on our records. I don't remember. 17 Q Okay. On occasion, would you, in fact, 18 endorse something to go to the office of the president 19 of any of your customers? 20 A On occasion, yes. As best I can recall, the 21 letters that I sent out was to the person on record. 22 Q Okay. 23 A I don't recall any letters that I, that came 24 out of my office that were addressed only to the 25 president. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069515 157 1 Q Okay. Thank you. We're done with that. 2 Let's mark this as Papageorge 28. 3 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 28 marked for 4 identification by the court reporter.) 5 Q (By Mr. Centola) I don't think this came from 6 your production, to tell you the truth. I believe it 7 came from a Brobeck production, actually. Okay. What 8 I've given to you is a letter dated February 4, 1972, 9 directed to Mrs. Irene Domer from a Clifford Boutin, 10 B-O-U-T-I-N, and attached thereto is a, a second letter 11 to Dear Sir endorsed by Howard Bergen, and attached 12 thereto is what appears to be the special undertaking 13 we've been talking about. And these documents bear the 14 date stamp numbers AY004986 through 990, okay? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Let's take them one at a time. Have you ever 17 seen this first page before, which is the letter to 18 Irene Domer? 19 A I have not. 20 Q Do you know who Clifford Boutin is? 21 A Yes, he at that time was the Monsanto sales 22 representative located in California. 23 Q Okay. How do you say his last name? 24 A Boutin. 25 Q Boutin. And are you familiar with Mr. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069516 158 1 Boutin's signature? 2 A I haven't seen it often. 3 Q Would you be able to recognize it if you saw 4 it? 5 A I don't think so. 6 Q Okay. Have you ever seen this letter before? 7 A No, not this letter, no. 8 MR. CARNEY: You're talking about the Boutin? 9 Q (By Mr. Centola) The Boutin letter. Do you, 10 in fact, recall any conversations with Mr. Boutin about 11 Energy Systems Company or Aydin? 12 A I do not. 13 Q Aside from your one conversation, or your 14 conversation with, I believe it was with Mr. Benignus 15 concerning Energy Systems and his visit thereto, do 16 you recall any other conversations with anyone at 17 Monsanto or reading any other documents or any other 18 things about Energy Systems or Aydin during the course 19 of your employment at Monsanto? 20 A I do not. 21 Q Okay. There is a second letter, okay, do you 22 see that? 23 A I do. 24 Q And on the second page, there's a signature. 25 A Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069517 159 1 Q Do you recognize the signature? 2 A I do not. 3 Q Okay. And it's very unlegible, but on the 4 first page of that second letter to Dear Sir, the 5 undated letter on AY004987, there's some handwriting or 6 markings on the first page. 7 MR. SUMMERS: Scribbling, you mean? 8 Q (By Mr. Centola) Right, it does appear to be 9 scribbling. Do you recognize it? 10 A I do not. 11 Q And again, the last document, I think we've 12 been through this, but let me ask you, do you recognize 13 what this is? 14 A I do. 15 Q And that is what? 16 A It's a copy of the special undertaking for 17 purchasers of PCB's. 18 Q Right. And that's the same undertaking that 19 was identified earlier on in this deposition? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And in particular, inExhibit 19 and in 22 Exhibit 18? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. Why don't wemark this as Papageorge 25 29. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069518 160 1 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 29 marked for 2 identification by the court reporter.) 3 Q (By Mr. Centola) This is a one page letter on 4 Monsanto stationery by Howard S. Bergen. First of all, 5 is that, in fact, Monsanto stationery, sir? 6 A This looks like a copy of the Monsanto 7 stationery, yes. 8 Q Have you ever seen this letter before? 9 A Yes, I have. 10 Q Okay. Do you recognize the signature? 11 A Well, it's like the others I've seen here, I 12 don't know whose penmanship that is. 13 Q Okay. When did you first see this letter? 14 A 19 -- about 1972, as best I recall. 15 Q Okay. In this letter, the first paragraph 16 reads, in the second -- well, the first sentence 17 reads, "As we have previously notified you by way of 18 correspondence since early 1970, the material described 19 on the attached acknowledgment of your order contains 20 polychlorinated biphenyls," okay? It goes on to say, 21 "Polychlorinated biphenyls are highly stable chemical 22 compounds and are not readily biodegradable. 23 Therefore, when placed in the environment they must be 24 considered contaminants and may adversely affect some 25 species of animals and marine life." Do you see that? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069519 161 1 A I do. I think you used the word "must be 2 considered," it's "may be considered contaminants." 3 Q Okay, may be considered, I'm sorry. Then it 4 goes on to say, "You must take every precaution to 5 prevent any entry of polychlorinated biphenyls into the 6 environment through spills, usage, leakage, disposal, 7 vaporization or otherwise." Do you see that? 8 A I do. 9 Q That looks awful similar to the warnings we 10 had on the labels and invoices, is it not? 11 A It is, yes. 12 Q Okay. Did you participate in preparing this 13 particular letter? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. What was your participation in 16 preparing this letter? 17 A I saw a proposed draft, and it agreed with 18 everything we had been putting out up to that point, 19 and I concurred. 20 Q So Howard Bergen ran this by you during the 21 normal course of his employment? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And did he, in fact, prepare this during and 24 in furtherance of his employment at Monsanto? 25 A Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069520 162 1 Q And you reviewed and concurred during and in 2 furtherance of your employment at Monsanto; is that 3 correct? 4 A That is correct. 5 Q And you both receivedthe information 6 contained in this letter during the furtherance of your 7 employment at Monsanto; is that correct? 8 A That is correct. 9 Q And, in fact, this letter was prepared in 10 furtherance of that employment? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And was a copy of this letter maintained as a 13 regular course of business in the business files at 14 Monsanto? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And, in fact, was this letter sent out by 17 Monsanto? 18 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, speculation. 19 Q (By Mr. Centola) You can answer it. 20 A Yes. 21 Q Was it your -- did you speak to Mr. Bergen 22 about this letter? 23 A Certainly. 24 Q And what would, did you talk about whether or 25 not this letter was going to be sent out? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069521 163 1 A Yes, we did. 2 Q And who did you decide to send this letter 3 out to? 4 A This letter was attached to all order 5 acknowledgments by the Customer Service Department. 6 Q That's what I was going to ask you. What do 7 you mean by, that's the first sentence we're talking 8 about right here, "... the material described on the 9 attached acknowledgment of your order contains 10 polychlorinated biphenyls." Do you see that? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Okay. What do you mean it was attached, 13 order of acknowledgments? 14 A There was a form that Monsanto used at the 15 time on which the appropriate information regarding the 16 customer and what he ordered and when he ordered it and 17 the expected date of delivery are typed on. 18 Q Okay. 19 A And to that acknowledgment which was mailed 20 to the customer, a copy of this was attached. 21 Q So as a matter of the regular course and 22 custom and habit of Monsanto, this order was sent to 23 your customers of dielectric fluids? 24 A This information, this document was sent. 25 Q Right. And that was sent along with the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069522 164 1 order that was sent as a -- 2 A Acknowledgment of the order. 3 Q Acknowledgment of the order. 4 A Prior to shipment. 5 Q Okay. And that was all done as part of the 6 custom and habit and during the regular course of 7 business at Monsanto? 8 A That is true. 9 Q Okay. And that would have been done with 10 respect to any customer who made an order for 11 polychlorinated biphenyls? 12 A At that time, yes. 13 Q And that time being in the -- 14 A Starting in the, late '72. 15 Q Is there any reason to believe thatthis 16 information was not attached to any orders that went 17 out? 18 A I have no reason to believe so, no. 19 Q In fact, that was the charge that you and Mr. 20 Bergen had at this point in time, was it not? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Okay. This will be Papageorge Exhibit 30. 23 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 30 marked for 24 identification by the court reporter.) 25 Q (By Mr. Centola) Would you please take a look TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069523 165 1 at this document? While you're looking, I'll describe 2 it for the record. This is a letter dated January 15, 3 1974, on Monsanto stationery. It's three pages, and it 4 appears to be prepared by a T.L. Gossage. 5 A I have read it, or reviewed it. 6 Q Have you ever seen this letter before, sir? 7 A Yes, I have. 8 Q And when did you first see this letter? 9 A Well, I composed it. 10 Q Oh, you did. And I see that it was, it 11 appears to be from T.L. Gossage, Marketing Director? 12 A He asked me to write it for him and for his 13 signature. 14 Q Okay. Is that, in fact, hissignature? 15 A It is. 16 Q And are you familiar with his signature? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And you've seen it in the past? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And that's his signature? 21 A It looks like it, yes. 22 Q And, now, you said he asked you to compose 23 it. Why is it Mr. Gossage came to you to ask you to 24 compose this? 25 A Well, I was the person in Monsanto that had TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069524 166 1 the contacts with the governmental agencies, so he 2 asked me to prepare the document based on my knowledge 3 of the situation, and that's, that's what I did. 4 Q Okay. Now, did you prepare this letter 5 during and in furtherance of your course of employment 6 at, regular course of employment at Monsanto? 7 A I did. 8 Q And did you obtain the information that is 9 contained in this letter during and in furtherance of 10 your employment, course of your regular course of your 11 employment at Monsanto? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And did you put thatinformation into this 14 letter when received on or about January 15, 1974? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And was a copy of this lettermaintained as a 17 business record in the files as a regular course of 18 business at Monsanto? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And, in fact, was this letter sent out, sir? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And who was this letter sent out to? 23 A To Monsanto customers who, in January, 1974, 24 were listed as purchasing dielectric fluid containing 25 PCB's. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069525 167 1 Q And in fact, this letter identifies Aroclor, 2 Inerteen, and Pyranol; is that correct? 3 A It does. 4 Q So as a matter of custom and habit and during 5 the regular course of Monsanto's activities and in 6 furtherance of that business, Monsanto sent this letter 7 out to its purchasers of dielectric fluids that were on 8 record as of January of 1974? 9 A That is correct. 10 Q Now, I think we spoke about this earlier, and 11 that it was also your charge to keep your customers 12 informed of governmental regulations that were 13 affecting PCB's? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And, in fact, this is an example of you doing 16 that; is that correct, sir? 17 A Yes. 18 Q In fact, you mention the EPA Federal 19 Register, do you see that? July of 1973? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Were, in fact, do you know -- you identify 22 four things. The EPA published in the Federal Register 23 a proposed list of toxics and pollutants, PCB's were 24 included on that list? 25 A Correct. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069526 168 1 Q And public hearings were held by the Effluent 2 Standards and Water Quality Information Advisory 3 Committee? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And there was a September 7, 1973, toxic 6 pollutants list was published without change? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And there's a December 27, 1973, the EPA 9 published proposed Effluent Standards for toxic 10 pollutants, do you see that? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Were all of these things, by the way -- 13 strike that. It says on the last page of this letter 14 that there were attachments. Do you see that? 15 A Correct. 16 Q What were the attachments? 17 A You'll see on Page 2 at the top, the first 18 complete sentence, referring to copies of the Federal 19 Register notices. 20 Q Okay. So copies of the Federal Register 21 notices which pertain to these -- 22 A Pertain to these activities that were listed 23 above. 24 Q Okay. And those, in fact, were sent to 25 customers as you just described? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069527 169 1 A Yes. 2 Q Mark this as Papageorge 31. 3 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 31 marked for 4 identification by the court reporter.) 5 Q (By Mr. Centola) I'm marking as Papageorge 31 6 portions of the, various portions of the Federal 7 Register, it's ten pages long. Now, the best way to 8 answer these questions that I'm going to ask you is to 9 keep 30 in front of you, sir. Exhibit 30. Now, I've 10 just put before you Papageorge Exhibit 31. Do you 11 recognize what that is? 12 A Yes. This is a collection of copies of 13 portions of several issues of the Federal Register. 14 Q Are you familiar with what the Federal 15 Register looks like? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And that, in fact, is portions of the Federal 18 Register, sir? 19 A This is it, yes. 20 Q Okay. Now, on thebottom page of each of 21 those pages, there are dates. Do you see that, sir? 22 A I do. 23 Q Okay. Do those dates correspond with any of 24 the dates on the first page of Exhibit 30? 25 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, vague and TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069528 170 1 ambiguous. 2 A Well, I see a reference on the second page of 3 Exhibit 31 to July 6, 1973, which is also referred to 4 on Paragraph No. 1 on the first page of Exhibit 30. 5 Q (By Mr. Centola) So is it your understanding, 6 or is it your testimony that, in fact, when you stated 7 that copies of the Register were sent to the customers, 8 then, in fact, the second page of 31 was sent along 9 with Exhibit 30? 10 A Yes. Exactly. 11 Q Okay. Go to the next page of 30. 12 A The Federal Register notice dated July 17, 13 1973, lists dates of meetings that were scheduled to 14 discuss the Effluent Standards which are described in 15 Paragraph 2 of Exhibit 30. 16 Q And so was this, was the fourth page, then, 17 of Exhibit 31 sent along with Exhibit 30? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And would the fifth page have been sent along 20 as well? 21 A The fifth page contains the concluding 22 portions of the information on the fourth page. 23 Q So that would have been sent, at least that 24 portion? 25 A Together, yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069529 171 1 Q Okay. Now, take a look at the sixth page of 2 -- I'm sorry? 3 A I haven't spotted the first page yet here. 4 The first page of Exhibit 31 refers to the meeting held 5 by the Advisory Committee on November 29, which is also 6 included in Paragraph 2 of Exhibit 30. 7 Q So the first page of 31 would have been sent 8 along with 30 as well? 9 A Yes. Now, getting over to, I believe it's 10 the sixth page? 11 Q Right. 12 A The sixth page, the sixth, seventh, eighth 13 page refers to the reissuance of the toxic pollutant 14 standards described in Paragraph 3 of Exhibit 30. 15 Q And would that have been sent along? 16 A And this would have been attached to Exhibit 17 30. And the final page refers to the meeting scheduled 18 for July 16 of 1973, which is covered in Paragraph 2 of 19 the first page of Exhibit 30, and would have been 20 attached to Exhibit 30. 21 Q So we have established, have we not, that all 22 of the items that are contained in 31, Exhibit 31, 23 were, in fact, sent as a matter of course with Exhibit 24 30 as you described earlier? 25 A Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069530 172 1 Q Okay. And this would have represented the 2 attachment that you referred to in this exhibit? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Thank you. For the record. Exhibit 31 would 5 represent the, represents the attachment that you 6 referred to in Exhibit 30? 7 A Correct. 8 Q In fact, by 1973, the Federal Register had 9 proposed a list of toxic pollutants, and PCB's were 10 included on that list, were they not? 11 A That is correct. 12 Q And in January of 1974, at the very least, 13 you were giving your clients information that the EPA's 14 Federal Register had, in fact, proposed a list of toxic 15 pollutants, and PCB's were, in fact, one of those toxic 16 pollutants; is that correct? 17 A That is correct. 18 Q Had you imparted that particular information 19 to them prior to January, '74, in addition to the other 20 information you gave to them prior? 21 A Not in a formal fashion. Some of the 22 activity was described to representatives of the 23 industry in group discussions and the like, and plant 24 visits and so on. 25 Q Right. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069531 173 1 A This is the first time they attempted to put 2 it all together in one document. 3 Q That is the regulatoryscheme? 4 A The regulatory activity, yes. 5 Q Right. This is from the production, and it's 6 AYD 000106, 107, 108, 109, 110, and 111. Let's mark it 7 collectively as Papageorge 32. 8 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 32 marked for 9 identification by the court reporter.) 10 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay. I have put before the 11 witness what appears to be a series of Material Safety 12 Data Sheets, form numbers OSHA, O-S-H-A, 20. Have you 13 ever seen these before, sir? 14 A Yes, I have. 15 Q What are these? 16 A These are copies of Material Safety Data 17 Sheets prepared according to the guidelines of the 18 Occupational Safety and Health Administration. 19 Q That's OSHA? 20 A OSHA. 21 Q O-S-H-A. Go ahead. 22 A For three products, Inerteen 70-30, 23 Inerteen PPO, and Pyranol A13B3B. 24 Q And were Inerteen and Pyranol used to 25 manufacture transformers? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069532 174 1 A Yes. 2 Q And Inerteen, you identified as the same 3 Inerteen that was on invoice, on the invoice in Exhibit 4 13? 5 A That is correct. 6 Q Inerteen 70-30? 7 A Correct. 8 Q And it's the same Inerteen that was on the 9 invoice that is marked Papageorge 12? 10 A Yes. 11 Q The invoice that was sent to Energy Systems, 12 Inc. ? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Okay. What was the purpose of these Material 15 Safety Data Sheets? 16 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, vague and ambiguous. 17 speculation. 18 Q (By Mr. Centola) Well, you said you 19 recognized these sheets. 20 A I do. 21 Q How do you recognize these sheets? 22 A Well -- 23 Q Strike that. During thecourse of your 24 employment, did you come across these types of sheets? 25 A Yes. In fact, I helped prepare them. My TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069533 175 1 initials appear on the second page in that grouping of 2 initials. 3 Q Which page are you talking about? 4 A Second page of each document has at the 5 bottom of the page -- 6 Q So on, let's see. On date stamp AYD 000107, 7 on the left hand portion, you have initials JAG; HOH; 8 JTG; and WBP? 9 A Correct. 10 Q WBP is you? 11 A That's me. 12 Q And that indicates that you helped prepare 13 this document? 14 A Correct. 15 Q And that is true with respect to each of 16 these Material Data Sheets that have been marked 17 collectively as Papageorge 32? 18 A That is correct. 19 Q You helped prepare each one of those? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. And when, in fact, did you prepare 22 these documents? 23 A These were prepared -- they were in 24 preparation the last quarter of 1971. Last three 25 months of 1971. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069534 176 1 Q Now, at the top, it says, "Form No. OSHA-20, 2 May, 1971." Is that the date that the form was 3 actually created? 4 A No. This form was in existence prior to the 5 formation of OSHA, and as I understand it, it was used 6 in the shipbuilding industry. When OSHA was looking 7 for a form, they adopted this particular form in May of 8 1971. 9 Q And, now, you said you helped prepare this 10 form, okay? 11 A Yes. 12 Q What, for what reason did you -- what was the 13 purpose of preparing this form? 14 A Well, as I remember, this was not limited 15 just to PCB's. This was for all chemicals that were 16 produced by chemical manufacturers for shipment, and 17 this is part of a company-wide program. 18 Q And did OSHA, in fact, require you to prepare 19 these forms? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q When it came intoexistence? 22 A That is correct. 23 Q When did OSHA come into existence, do you 24 recall? 25 A As I remember, they were about 1970 or so. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069535 177 1 Q But even before OSHA, these forms were 2 prepared and sent out by Monsanto as custom and 3 practice? 4 A No. 5 Q Okay. 6 A It's only when OSHA adopted the form and made 7 it acceptable for the use of chemicals in general that 8 Monsanto filled out the sheets as appropriate and sent 9 them out. 10 Q Okay. And let's take the first sheet, which 11 is date stamp 000106, okay? 12 A I have it. 13 Q Okay. You said thatthisMaterial Safety 14 Data Sheet would be sent out with respect to any 15 chemical that you sold; is that correct? 16 A That's right. 17 Q Okay. And what would bethe purpose of 18 sending the information that's on this sheet to the 19 customer? 20 A To share with the customer the information 21 requested in each of those sections. 22 Q What is OSHA? 23 A It's the part of the Department of Labor that 24 concerns itself with work-related safety and health. 25 Q Okay. So, for instance, on the second page. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069536 178 1 it says, "Health Hazard Data," correct? 2 A Let me find that. Second page? 3 Q Right at the top. 4 A Oh, yes, I see it. 5 Q And you would fill in information concerning 6 what kind of health hazards a particular chemical would 7 cause if exposed to it; is that correct? 8 A Correct. 9 Q And that's, in fact, what you did here with 10 respect to Pyranol? 11 A This particular document, yes. 12 Q And if we went through each of these 13 documents, you would be providing information to the 14 customer with respect to the materials sold to him in 15 terms of fire and explosion hazards, health hazards, et 16 cetera, as put forth by these documents? 17 A Correct. 18 Q And Monsanto is, in fact, wasrequired to, 19 and therefore it is custom and habit and during the 20 regular course of its business, would issue these 21 Material Safety Data Sheets to its customers when they 22 would purchase chemicals from Monsanto; is that 23 correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And is it a fact that you could not purchase TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069537 179 1 a chemical from Monsanto prior, subsequent to 1971 2 without receiving a Material Safety Data Sheet? 3 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, speculation. 4 A That's true. 5 Q (By Mr. Centola) Well, in fact, you know 6 that, sir, because you, in fact, filled out these 7 sheets; is that correct? 8 A I filled them out and made certain that the 9 salesmen got their supply with specific instructions to 10 drop them off at all the customers of each particular 11 chemical. 12 Q That was part of your job at Monsanto, was it 13 not? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q Let me give you one more thing before we 16 break for the day. 17 (A brief off the record discussion was held 18 at this point.) 19 Q (By Mr. Centola) This is from the production, 20 and this is a letter dated July 31, 1975, on Monsanto 21 stationery from Douglas R. Hansen to Ralph Murphy of 22 Aydin Energy Systems, and it's date stamps AYD 000101 23 and 102. 24 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 33 marked for 25 identification by the court reporter.) TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069538 180 1 Q (By Mr. Centola) Have you ever seen this 2 before. sir? 3 A I saw this yesterday. 4 Q Have you seen it prior to yesterday? 5 A I don't recall it. 6 Q Okay. Do you know who Douglas R. Hansen is? 7 A Yes, I do. 8 Q Who is he? 9 A He was the sales manager located in 10 California. Monsanto sales manager. 11 Q Let me just try to get the structure straight 12 with the salespeople. You had Mr. Olson, Benignus, 13 Bryant, and now Hansen; is that correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Were they all in sales and marketing? 16 A Well, strictly speaking, Mr. Olson, Mr. 17 Benignus, and Mr. Bryant would be considered part of 18 the marketing team. 19 Q Okay. 20 A Mr. Hansen and Mr. Boutin that we talked 21 about earlier and Mr. Randy Graham, they were part of 22 the sales force. 23 Q Can you tell me the distinction between the 24 two? 25 A Well, marketing is, is, includes sales, but TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069539 181 1 it also involves itself with developing new markets, 2 determining the potential size of the market, the 3 search for new products to introduce to the market, so 4 it's a broader approach to the introduction of 5 chemicals into commerce. Whereas sales, the salesman 6 is given a list of the chemicals that are available, 7 the cost per pound, the suggested uses, and he's asked 8 to go out and see if he can find a customer. 9 Q Right. Okay, that makes sense. And Hansen 10 was one of those guys, as was Boutin, the last of the 11 two, which is the salesperson? 12 A Mr. Hansen, you'll note, is a manager. He 13 has salesmen reporting to him. So he's the 14 administrative head of an office located at that time 15 in Santa Clara, California, and reporting to him were 16 many salesmen. One of them, Mr. Boutin at the time, 17 sold PCB's. Others sold agricultural chemicals and 18 plasticizers and a host of other products. 19 Q Understood. Now, who is Mister -- there's a 20 bcc: David Wood. Who is that? 21 A David Wood, at that time in 1975, was doing 22 roughly the kinds of things that Mr. Benignus had been 23 doing. Mr. Benignus had retired by now. 24 Q Oh, I see. When did -- so did Wood take over 25 for Mr. Benignus? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069540 182 1 A Mr. Benignus' job plus other PCB kinds of 2 activities. A little broader assignment. 3 Q And what was the scope of Benignus' job? 4 A Mr. Benignus was limited to dielectric 5 applications. When Mr. Wood took over, he, of course, 6 assumed the dielectric applications which were still 7 ongoing, but he also became involved with the past uses 8 that were discontinued for which customers were still 9 asking questions, like heat transfer and hydraulic 10 fluids and so on. 11 Q Backing up just a little bit while I have you 12 on the subject, there did come, in fact, a time when 13 1016 was, replaced 1242; do you recall that? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And that was sometime in the '71 time frame? 16 A Yes. 17 Q After 1971, other than Aroclor 1016, what 18 other kind of Aroclors were sold to customers, if you 19 recall? 20 A We had Aroclor 1221, Aroclor 1232, Aroclor 21 1254, and a small amount of Aroclor 1242 was still 22 available to the transformer manufacturer. 23 Q What was the 1254 normally used for? 24 A As an ingredient in the transformer fluids, 25 the Inerteens and the Pyranols. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069541 183 1 Q Okay. And how about 1016? 2 A 1016 was exclusive as the fluid in 3 capacitors. 4 Q Was that ever used for transformers? 5 A Not to my knowledge. 6 Q 1060 -- I mean 1260? 7 A 1260 was discontinued in 1970. 8 Q Why was it discontinued in 1970? 9 A Because it was the most resistant in the 10 environment of all the mixtures, and Aroclor 1254 was 11 a, an available alternative. 12 Q And 1254 was sold as a mixture in Inerteen 13 and Pyranol right up until 1977 when you discontinued 14 sales of PCB's? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q Despite the fact that you transferred to 1016 17 as opposed to 1242, and despite the fact that 1254 was 18 available as opposed to 1260, did you ever suggest to 19 your clients that it was okay to give any of those 20 items into the environment? 21 A Oh, never. No, no. 22 Q They were still treated the same way, were 23 they not? 24 A Certainly. Yes. 25 Q Okay. I'm sorry, you mentioned 1222; is that TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069542 184 1 correct? 2 A 1221. 3 Q 1221. What was that used for, sir? 4 A In some capacitors. 5 Q Not transformers? 6 A That is correct. 7 Q So essentially, the kind of Arocloryou're 8 going to find in Pyranol and Inerteen would be 1254? 9 A Most likely. General Electric had a Pyranol 10 which contained Aroclor 1242. 11 Q Now, going back to our letter here, July 31, 12 '75, although you've never seen this letter before, are 13 you familiar with the problems which seem to be 14 indicated in this letter? 15 A Oh, yes. 16 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, move to strike, 17 vague and ambiguous, speculation. 18 Q (By Mr. Centola) Well, the letter says, 19 number one, some -- strike that. The number starts out 20 by saying, "We wish to bring to your attention problems 21 associated with disposal of waste chlorinated biphenyl 22 products in our incinerator in Sauget, Illinois." 23 A Yes. 24 Q In fact, that is where your incinerator was? 25 A Correct. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069543 185 1 Q That's the incinerator we spoke to earlier, 2 about earlier today? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And it goes on to state in Paragraph No. 1, 5 "Some recent returns have been in completely unsuitable 6 drums which have been severely corroded and unsealed." 7 Do you see that? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Were you familiar with that taking place? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And, in fact, were you familiar with the 12 other items that were in this letter taking place from 13 various customers? 14 A Yes. 15 Q When this, when a customer -- strike that. 16 Was it your understanding that if you were experiencing 17 problems with customers' returns -- strike that. If 18 you were experiencing problems with the returns of 19 customers, was it your understanding that a letter or 20 some notification would go out to the customer 21 concerning Monsanto's concerns? 22 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, speculation, vague 23 and ambiguous. 24 A In those situations where we could definitely 25 associate a particular shipment from a customer? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069544 186 1 Q (By Mr. Centola) Right. 2 A We, of course, would get on the telephone and 3 talk to them right away -- 4 Q Right. 5 A -- about the faults that we found with the 6 shipment and the problems it created. After a while, 7 it became a case where perhaps it would be appropriate 8 to list the kinds of problems we have and share it with 9 all of our customers. 10 Q Right. 11 A This did not mean that the, that all of the 12 customers were guilty of these discrepancies in 13 shipping requirements. So this is an example of a kind 14 of letter that was sent out to share with the customer 15 the kinds of problems that were possible, and to also 16 remind them that we had a label that they could use and 17 should use to use our service. 18 Q Just one other thingabout this. So that, as 19 a custom and habit and during the regular course of 20 Monsanto's business, that kind of list of problems 21 would be sent to customers as, on record? 22 A Certainly. 23 Q Now, and this will be my last few questions. 24 On the first page of this exhibit, and we're going to 25 get to this on Thursday, there is the paragraph TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069545 187 1 numbered one, and then there's a paragraph under that 2 saying, "Truck cleaning at Sauget increases the risk of 3 escape," do you see that? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And it says, "It would indeed be distressing 6 if these instances led to the inability of the industry 7 to use chlorinated biphenyl in spite of industry 8 efforts on ANSI," A-N-S-I, "C-107 and EIA ad hoc 9 committees." Do you see that? 10 A Yes, I see that. 11 Q The ANSI C-107, is that the committee that 12 drafted standards with respect to the handling of 13 Aroclors? 14 A To the handling of -- 15 Q PCB's. 16 A Dielectric fluids containing PCB's. 17 Q And ANSI represents what? 18 A The American National Standards Institute. 19 Q And within that American National Standards 20 Institute was this committee which was labeled C-107 21 which had the responsibility of drafting standards; is 22 that correct? 23 A That is correct. 24 Q And those standards pertained to the handling 25 of Aroclor containing products? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069546 188 1 A Correct. 2 Q And the EIA represents what? 3 A That's the Edison -- I'm sorry. Electronic 4 Industries Association. 5 Q And the Electronic Industries Association, 6 did it not, formed a PCB ad hoc committee? 7 A Yes, they did. 8 Q And when was that, sir? 9 A 1973, '74 period. 10 Q Okay. Why don't we end there, sir, for 11 today. Thank you. 12 MR. CARNEY: Just so we have some record of 13 what we're saying, we'll start up at, on Thursday, and 14 we'll finish Mr. Papageorge, and would you estimate a 15 couple of hours? 16 MR. CENTOLA: Yeah, two or three hours. 17 MR. CARNEY: I will have the custodian, and 18 I'm trying to think, I don't want to have somebody 19 sitting around. 20 MR. CENTOLA: I'll do him first. I'll take 21 them out of order, if that's okay. 22 MR. CARNEY: How long would you estimate? 23 MR. CENTOLA: If you gave him the documents 24 to look at ahead of time, it shouldn't take more than 25 ten minutes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069547 189 1 MR. CARNEY: Does everybody agree that that's 2 a ten minute depo? 3 MR. CENTOLA: Yeah. 4 MR. SUMMERS: Yeah. 5 MR. CARNEY: So we'll start at nine with the 6 custodian first, and then we'll have Mr. Papageorge 7 ready and we should conclude sometime in the morning. 8 MR. CENTOLA: Right. Terrific. 9 MR. CARNEY: And the only other thing I need 10 is, there are about seven or eight exhibits I need, if 11 you could get copies before Thursday. 12 MR. CENTOLA: Well, I'll tell you what, I'll 13 make a copy of the entire set before Thursday with the 14 actual exhibit tag on it. 15 MR. CARNEY: That would probably help. 16 MR. CENTOLA: Okay. That's it. 17 18 (Wherein the proceedings were adjourned, to 19 be continued on Thursday, December 19, 1991.) 20 21 22 23 24 25 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069548 190 1 CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION 2 QUESTIONS BY MR. CENTOLA: 3 Q Good morning, Mr. Papageorge. 4 A Good morning. 5 Q Again, my name is Gary Centola, and I'd like 6 to remind you that you're still under oath. 7 A I understand. 8 Q Mr. Papageorge, I just want for a moment to 9 show you what has already been marked as Exhibit 17, I 10 believe it's already in front of you. 11 A Yes. 12 Q And it's a letterdated February 4, 1972, and 13 it's signed by Howard Bergen? 14 A I have it here. 15 Q Right. Now, the other day you testified that 16 it was your understanding that this letter was sent out 17 to various customers of Monsanto. Do you recall that? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Now, this, this letter makes reference to an 20 article by Carl G. Gustafson of the Federal Water 21 Quality Administration? 22 A It does. 23 Q Okay. And I think theother day we 24 established through your testimony that, in fact, 25 that article is part of what has been marked as TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069549 191 1 Papageorge 18; is that correct? 2 A That is correct. 3 Q Now, if we can turn to Page 2 of that article 4 by Carl G. Gustafson, which is in Exhibit 18, it's got 5 a picture of two little, of a little chick on it? 6 A I see it, yes. 7 Q Okay. Now, there's a subheading in that 8 article that says "Chronic Toxicity," do you see that? 9 A I do. 10 Q And on the last column, the last paragraph -- 11 I'm sorry, the last column, the first full paragraph 12 states that "Another chronic effect of PCB's is related 13 in waterfowl. The accumulation of high concentrations 14 of chlorinated hydrocarbons in birds resulted in 15 disruption of normal breeding behavior and in the 16 formation of thin-shelled eggs." Do you see that? 17 A I do. I believe you said waterfowl. 18 Q I'm sorry, it should be wildfowl. 19 A Yes, sir, I see that. 20 Q And it goes on to talk about the thin-shelled 21 eggs in that particular article, do you see that? 22 A Yes, I do. 23 Q This is, in fact, the kind of information 24 that you were giving to customers in this time frame 25 when you would receive it? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069550 192 1 A Yes. 2 Q Okay. Also in Exhibit 18 is the special 3 undertaking. Do you see that? 4 A I do. 5 Q And this special undertaking was an 6 undertaking that Monsanto required his customers of 7 dielectric fluids to engage in; is that correct? 8 A That is correct. 9 Q And, in fact, the last paragraph on the first 10 page of that special undertaking maps out why the 11 special undertaking was, in fact, required; is that 12 correct? 13 MR. SUMMERS: I'll object, vague and 14 ambiguous, calls for speculation. 15 A That is correct. 16 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay. And, in fact, that 17 last paragraph reads that, "Accordingly, the Buyer 18 hereby covenants and agrees that, with respect to any 19 and all PCB's sold or delivered by or on behalf of 20 Monsanto to Buyer on or after the date hereof," and it 21 goes on to say, "Buyer shall defend, indemnify and hold 22 harmless Monsanto, its present, past and future 23 directors, et cetera, from and against any and all 24 liabilities, claims, damages, penalties, actions, 25 suits, losses, costs and expenses arising out of or in TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069551 193 1 connection with the receipt, purchase, possession, 2 handling, use, sale or disposition of such PCB's by, 3 through or under Buyer," and it goes on to say, 4 "without implied limitation any contamination of or 5 adverse effect on humans, marine, and wildlife, food, 6 animal feed or the environment by reason of such 7 PCB's." Do you see that? 8 A I do. 9 Q Okay. And that, in fact, was the substance 10 of -- strike that. Liability caused by the use and 11 handling of PCB's was the concern that Monsanto had in 12 this time frame? 13 MR. SUMMERS: I'll object, vague and 14 ambiguous, calls for speculation. 15 MR. CARNEY: I'll join in that. 16 Q (By Mr. Centola) Strike that. I'll 17 withdraw the question. Now, would you please look at 18 Exhibit 31? 19 A I have it. 20 Q Okay. Yesterday, I should say two days ago, 21 you identified this as a portion of the Federal 22 Register that was sent with a letter to customers; is 23 that correct? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q Okay. Would you please, for the record, if TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069552 194 1 you know, tell us what the Federal Register is? 2 A The Federal Register, as I understand it, is 3 a Federal Government publication in which the agencies 4 of the Federal Government publish various announcements 5 that pertain to their activities. 6 Q Okay. Now, in this particular portion of the 7 Federal Register, which is Papageorge 31, and the first 8 page is dated Tuesday, November 6, 1973, this 9 particular entry refers to the Environment Protection 10 Agency and its Effluent Standards and Water Quality 11 Information Advisory Committee; is that correct? 12 A Well, that's one of the articles on that 13 page, yes. 14 Q Right. And that article, in fact, discusses 15 the establishment of effluent limitations for items of 16 toxic substances. Do you see that? That would be the 17 second paragraph in the first column on the left. 18 A If I understood your statement, you said this 19 article establishes effluent limitations. If I 20 understand it correctly, this refers to an agenda which 21 is put together in hopes of the establishment, eventual 22 establishment of effluent limitations. 23 Q Right. And on the second page of this, this 24 exhibit, under, in the middle column it says 25 "Environmental Protection Agency, Water Pollution TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069553 195 1 Prevention and Control." Do you see that? 2 A I do. 3 Q And it says here, "Notice is hereby given 4 that the Acting Administrator, Environmental Protection 5 Agency, proposes to establish a list of toxic 6 pollutants in accordance with section 307(a)(1) of the 7 Federal Water Pollution Control Act." Do you see that? 8 A I do. 9 Q And then under that, it lists a number of 10 toxic pollutants. Do you see that? 11 A I do. 12 Q And, in fact. No. 8 is, are polychlorinated 13 biphenyls, do you see that? 14 A That is correct. 15 Q Okay. Ifwe go over to theseventh page of 16 this exhibit, which is Exhibit 31? 17 A I believe I have it. 18 Q Okay. And in the right column, okay, first 19 of all, in the middle column under Roman numeral two, 20 it says "The Pollutants Selected." Do you see that? 21 A I do. 22 Q And then in the right hand column, it has 23 polychlorinated biphenyls one, two, three, four 24 paragraphs down. Do you see that? 25 A I do. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069554 196 1 Q And it says, "Polychlorinated biphenyls are 2 on the list because of their high order of toxicity to 3 man and aquatic organisms and because of their 4 bioaccumulative potential." Do you see that? 5 A I do. 6 Q This, in fact, this information, was it not, 7 was imparted to your customers in that letter we talked 8 about the other day, was it not? 9 A It was. 10 Q Okay. Thank you. Now, we talked the other 11 day about a trip that Mr. Benignus made to Energy 12 Systems. Do you recall that? 13 A I do. 14 Q Do you know what a Call Report is? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q What is a Call Report, C-A-L-L? 17 A It's a report that is issued after an 18 individual -- and I'm speaking of Monsanto's procedure 19 -- an individual makes a trip, whether it be a customer 20 or any other audience that they visited, and attempts 21 to summarize in that report the highlights of the 22 meeting and discussion. 23 Q Okay. I'd like to mark as Papageorge 34 what 24 appears to be a Call Report. This is from the 25 production, by the way. AYD 000007 through 10. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069555 197 1 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 34 marked for 2 identification by the court reporter.) 3 Q (By Mr. Centola) This is a, the first page is 4 on Monsanto's letterhead or stationery dated December 5 24, 1970, entitled "Call Report." The second page is 6 dated February 16, 1970, "Subject: Transformer 7 Askarels, Calls in the San Francisco area," and it's 8 signed by P.G. Benignus. Have you ever seen this 9 document before, Mr. Papageorge? 10 A Yes, I have. 11 Q When did you first see this document or any 12 portions of this document? 13 A I saw both of them at about the time of the 14 date on each document. 15 Q Okay. So is it fair to say that you saw the 16 first page of this document on or about December 24, 17 1970? 18 A That is correct. 19 Q And that you saw the second page in the 20 following, the second page with following pages on or 21 about February 16, 1970? 22 A That is correct. 23 Q Okay. Now, do you see the name at the bottom 24 of the first page? 25 A I do. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069556 198 1 Q Who is, again, just for the record, who is 2 J.G. Bryant? 3 A Mr. Bryant at that time was the technical 4 person located in St. Louis in Monsanto's marketing 5 group that sold dielectric fluids that contained 6 PCB's. Mr. Bryant reported to Mr. Benignus who was the 7 marketing, excuse me, marketing manager for that group 8 of products. 9 Q Now, are you familiar with Mr. Bryant's 10 signature? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Do you recognize the signature at the bottom 13 of this page? 14 A That looks like it, yes. 15 Q Okay. Now, do you know if Mr. Bryant made a 16 visit to Energy Systems? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And did he? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And that is indicated by this Call Report; is 21 that correct? 22 A Yes, it does. 23 Q Okay. By the way, was this, when a call, I 24 think you testified earlier that when someone would 25 make a visit to a customer, they would prepare such a TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069557 199 1 report; is that correct? 2 A It's the option of the person that made the 3 call. He may prepare a report or he may choose not to. 4 Q Now, you said that you saw this on or about 5 December 24, 1970. Do you see that? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Remember that? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Did you see this -- was it -- strike that. 10 Was this report sent to you, or under what 11 circumstances did you see this report? 12 A It was sent to me, a copy was sent to me. 13 Q Was this report prepared by Mr. Bryant? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Was it prepared by him during the course of 16 his regular employment and in furtherance of that 17 employment at Monsanto? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And was theinformation that iscontained in 20 the report retrieved by Mr. Bryant in the furtherance 21 of his employment at Monsanto? 22 A It was. 23 Q And was that information put onto this 24 document during and in furtherance of his employment at 25 Monsanto? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069558 200 1 A Yes. 2 Q And was a copy of this report maintained 3 during the regular course of business at Monsanto in 4 its files, sir? 5 A Yes. 6 Q By the way, do you know who Charles "Red" 7 McCulley is? 8 A No, I have not met the man. 9 Q Okay. Doyouremember discussing Mr. 10 Bryant's visit with, to Energy Systems with him? 11 A Yes. That's when he gave me a copy of this. 12 Q Okay. Now, on this, on this -- so it was 13 your understanding, then, through conversations with 14 Bryant and through this document that, in fact, Mr. 15 Bryant went to Energy Systems? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Do you recall if Mr. Bryant discussed with 18 you whether he spoke about pollution concerns at the 19 plant? 20 A He did. 21 Q Okay. And did he discuss that with Energy 22 Systems? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. Was it your understanding at that time 25 that Mr. Bryant as well as Mr. Benignus informed people TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069559 201 1 at Energy Systems that it was imperative to keep PCB's 2 out of the environment? 3 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, vague and ambiguous, 4 calls for speculation. 5 A Yes, he did. 6 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay. Was that -- did you 7 obtain that information through direct conversations 8 with Mr. Bryant and Mr. Benignus? 9 A Certainly, yes. 10 Q And, in fact, wasn't that not your charge to 11 make sure that information was imparted by your sales 12 people and technical people to your customers? 13 A That is true. 14 Q Okay. Now, and let's go to thesecond 15 document in this exhibit. 16 MR. CARNEY: You mean the second exhibit? 17 MR. CENTOLA: It's one exhibit, I marked it 18 as a single exhibit. 19 MR. CARNEY: You were just talking about 20 Exhibit 34? 21 MR. CENTOLA: Yeah, I was talking about 22 Exhibit 34, just the first page. 23 MR. CARNEY: Okay. 24 MR. CENTOLA: The second page and thereafter 25 is the second, is the second document. You know what? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069560 202 1 Maybe we should, for, it might be simpler to mark it as 2 two separate documents. 3 MR. CARNEY: I think that might be a good 4 idea. 5 MR. CENTOLA: Okay. So why don't we mark 6 the, what I've already identified as AYD 000008 through 7 10 not as a portion of 34, but as its own Exhibit 35. 8 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 35 marked for 9 identification by the court reporter.) 10 Q (By Mr. Centola) Now, you'vealready 11 testified that you saw this particular document on or 12 about February 16, 1970, do you recall that? 13 A I do, that's correct. 14 Q Okay. Now, would you turn to the last page 15 of this document? Do you see the name? 16 A I do. 17 Q What name is that? 18 A That's P.G. Benignus. 19 Q Okay. And do yourecognize the initials 20 above the name? 21 A I do. 22 Q Are those his initials? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And you're familiar withthoseinitials? 25 A Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069561 203 1 Q And you've seen those initials in the past? 2 A Many times, yes. 3 Q Okay. Now, was this, was a copy of this 4 report sent to you, sir? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And it was also sent to Mr. E.P. Wheeler. Do 7 you see that? 8 A I do. 9 Q Okay. Again, for the record, who is E.P. 10 Wheeler? 11 A Mr. Wheeler at that time was the Manager of 12 Environmental Health in at Monsanto's corporate Medical 13 Department. 14 Q Okay. Now, was this report made by Mr. 15 Benignus during the regular course of his business and 16 in furtherance of his business at Monsanto? 17 A It was. 18 Q And was theinformation that was, that is 19 contained in this report acquired by Mr. Benignus 20 during the course of his regular course of employment 21 at Monsanto and in furtherance of that employment, sir? 22 A It was. 23 Q And was that information put into this 24 document on or about the time it was accumulated under 25 the same circumstances. Your Honor? I mean, Mr. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069562 204 1 Papageorge? 2 A It was. 3 Q And was a copy of this document maintained as 4 a regular course of business at Monsanto in its files, 5 sir? 6 A It was. 7 Q Okay. Now, this report on the front page 8 says, "For simplicity," and this report is dated 9 February 16, 1970, "For simplicity this can be reported 10 together and in summary. None of these people had any 11 technical problems. When they do -- they call us at 12 St. Louis. All are well satisfied with our service. 13 Therefore, this report will deal primarily with the PCB 14 Pollution situation." Do you see that? 15 A I do. 16 Q Okay. And is it fair tosay, fromreading 17 this report, that Mr. Benignus, when he visited Energy 18 Systems, discussed the disposal of scrap Askarel with 19 Energy Systems? 20 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, calls for 21 speculation. 22 Q (By Mr.Centola) Allright, I won't go any 23 further than that. In fact, this Call Report does 24 indicate that Benignus did discuss disposal of Askarels 25 with Energy Systems, does it not? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069563 205 1 A It does. 2 Q Okay. Thank you, Mr. Papageorge. Let's mark 3 this as Papageorge 36 and Papageorge 37. These are 4 from the production, AYD 000040 through 50 would be 5 Papageorge 36; and AYD 000068 through 91 will be 6 Papageorge 37. 7 MR. CARNEY: The first one was 40 through 8 60? 9 MR. CENTOLA: 50. The second one was 68 10 through 91. 11 (Papageorge Exhibits No. 36 and 37 marked for 12 identification by the court reporter.) 13 Q (By Mr. Centola) I've just put before the 14 witness a document entitled "Sales Summary, All PCB 15 Containing Products, Energy Systems, Inc., Palo Alto, 16 California, 1954 through 1977," that's Exhibit 36. On 17 the second document is "Sales Summary, All PCB 18 Containing Products, Aydin Energy Systems, Palo Alto, 19 California, 1954 through 1977." Have you ever seen 20 either of these documents before, Mr. Papageorge? 21 A Yes, I have. 22 Q When have you seen them? When was the first 23 time you saw them, I should say? 24 A I saw them earlier this week. 25 Q Okay. Prior to that, have you seen those TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069564 206 1 documents? 2 A Not these specific documents, no. 3 Q Okay. Have you seen documents in this format 4 before at Monsanto? 5 A Yes, many times. 6 Q Okay. What is, what are these documents? 7 Let's take the first page of the document. 8 A The first page is a summary by year, or 9 years, of the type of PCB product and the amounts sold 10 to the customer at the heading. 11 Q All right. And would these kind of summaries 12 be made -- were they made during the regular course of 13 business at Monsanto? 14 A Not the summaries. 15 Q Okay. What were made as a regular course of 16 business? 17 A The pages attached, there are copies of 18 records that are maintained. 19 Q Okay. Let's take the second page of, let's 20 take them in order. 36. Okay, the second page of that 21 is a sales -- what is that? 22 A This is -- it's rather difficult to read, but 23 it shows -- I can't read that first word. 24 Q Well, is this a Sales Summary Sheet? 25 A Oh, the title of this whole sheet is Sales TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069565 207 1 Summary Sheet. 2 Q All right. And is this a form that was 3 maintained by, at Monsanto? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And in this form, it appears that there was, 6 down at a portion of it, it has the name Energy 7 Systems. Do you see that? 8 A I do. 9 Q And then in the column it has 12,150; do you 10 see that? 11 A I do. 12 Q And then in another column ithas 2,864; do 13 you see that? 14 A I see that. 15 Q All right. And then it has a date on this, 16 it's December, 1966. Do you see that? 17 A I do. 18 Q Have you seen these types of forms before? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. And what do these types of forms -- 21 what did, what was recorded in these types of forms by 22 Monsanto? 23 A The product referred to in thedocument. 24 Q Right. 25 A The name of the customer. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069566 208 1 Q Mm-hmiti. 2 A The amount of material, and the selling price 3 of that material. 4 Q Right. And were these documents, these 5 Summary Sheets, kept as a matter of regular course of 6 business at Monsanto? 7 A Oh, yes. 8 Q Okay. So when a sale would be made, a sheet 9 like this would automatically be generated? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And is that true with respect to this entire 12 document, which is Exhibit 36? 13 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, I believe that 14 mischaracterizes as to the first page of it. 15 MR. CENTOLA: Okay. Well, let's go through 16 the first page a little more carefully. You mean -- 17 MR. SUMMERS: I mean the first page of the 18 exhibit. 19 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay, let's start with the 20 second page of the exhibit. This has a printed block, 21 do you see that? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And under that in writing, it has some 24 writing. What does that say there? 25 A That's referring to the product ventures for TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069567 209 1 this page, and it's Transformer -- I can't make out 2 that second word, but the product is Pyranol A13B3B. 3 Q And that's a PCB containing product; is it 4 not? 5 A It is. 6 Q And we already identified Energy Systems, 7 Inc., as the buyer; is that correct? 8 A That is correct. 9 Q And in the next column, it's 12,150, which 10 would refer to pounds of the product, would it not? 11 A It's the next column with an entry in it. 12 Q Right. 13 A Those are the, that's the amount. 14 Q And the column after that, sir? 15 A Is the cost of thatmaterial. 16 Q And that's 2,864; is that correct? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q And the date it was sold was December, 1966; 19 do you see that? 20 A As of December, 1966. I can't tell from this 21 just when it was shipped. 22 Q Okay. And on each page after in the 23 document, the setup is essentially the same, is it not? 24 A It appears, it is, yes. 25 Q Identifying the purchaser and the amount and TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069568 210 1 the price as well as the product? 2 A Right, and it's all at year end. 3 Q Okay. Is the same true with respect to the 4 second, third, fourth, and fifth page of Exhibit 37? 5 A I don't see a reference, unless I'm 6 misreading this, a reference to dollars. 7 Q Okay. 8 A I see reference to pounds. 9 Q But it identifies everything but the dollars 10 in those pages? 11 A As best I can make out at this moment. 12 Q And again, those pages were filled out as a 13 regular course and as part of custom and habit of 14 Monsanto when the product was at year end, year end -- 15 can we strike that please -- at year end for each 16 customer; is that correct? 17 A That is correct. 18 Q So we would have, if we put these two, and 19 these are documents that were made during the regular 20 course of business at Monsanto, were they not? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And copies of these documents were, in fact, 23 maintained in the files as part of that business at 24 Monsanto, were they not? 25 A Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069569 211 1 MR. SUMMERS: I object and move to strike 2 only if you mean by "these documents," you're including 3 the first pages of Exhibits 36 and 37. 4 Q (By Mr. Centola) Fine, I'm not including the 5 first page. I was just referring to the summary forms 6 we've been discussing; is that correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Now, do you know who prepared those first 9 pages on 36 and 37? 10 A The top page of each? 11 Q Yes. 12 A I do not. 13 Q Okay. Now, if, in fact. Energy Systems, 14 which later became known as Aydin Energy Systems, 15 Energy Systems, received polychlorinated biphenyl 16 containing products beginning in 1966 through 1976, do 17 you see that, this customer would have been, would it 18 not, on the mailing list at Monsanto as a regular 19 course, would it not? 20 A Oh, yes. 21 Q Okay. And therefore, all of the previous 22 letters we've discussed that you stated were sent out 23 to customers that were maintained on the list as of 24 date, okay, would have been sent to Aydin Energy 25 Systems and Energy Systems, Inc., would it not, during TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069570 212 1 those time periods? 2 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, calls for 3 speculation. 4 A Yes. 5 Q (By Mr. Centola) And that would have been 6 done as a matter of custom and habit at Monsanto during 7 the regular course of its business, would it not? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. Let's go on. Can we go off the record 10 for a moment, and the camera? 11 (An off the record discussion was held at 12 this point.) 13 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 38 marked for 14 identification by the court reporter.) 15 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay. I've just put before 16 you, Mr. Papageorge, three letters which I've marked 17 collectively as Exhibit 38. The first is dated 18 December 27, 1974, to Mr. Hakimagnu from H.S. Bergen; 19 the second is November 28, 1973, to Mr. Hakimagnu from 20 Howard S. Bergen; and the third is to Mr. Brad Vanders, 21 V-A-N-D-E-R-S, Energy Systems Company, dated 22 December 1, 1975, from R.J. Porter, Potter, I'm sorry. 23 Have you ever seen these letters before other than the 24 other day when you were testifying? 25 A No. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069571 213 1 Q Do you recognize any of the hand on any of 2 these three letters, the handwriting? 3 A The handwriting, I do on the third one, Mr. 4 Potter's signature. 5 Q Now, have you seen Mr. Potter's signature in 6 the past? 7 A Yes, I have. 8 Q And areyou familiar with that signature? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And do you recognize the signature on the 11 third page of that document? 12 A I do. 13 Q And was it Mr.Potter'scustom to sign 14 documents that he prepared on Monsanto stationery in 15 the course of furtherance of his business at Monsanto? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And is there any reason to believe that he 18 did not sign this and prepare this letter during the 19 course of his business at Monsanto? 20 A I have no reason to believe so, right. 21 Q Okay. You have no reason to believe not? 22 A To believe not, I'm sorry. 23 Q And is it your understanding that a copy of 24 this document was maintained during the regular course 25 of business in Monsanto's files? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069572 214 1 A It is. 2 Q Okay. And do you have any reason to believe 3 that this document was not sent to Brad Vanders at 4 Energy Systems Company? 5 A I do not. 6 Q Okay. Thank you, Mr.Papageorge. 7 MR. SUMMERS: Do you have another copy of 8 those signed versions? Thanks. 9 MR. CENTOLA: Let's mark this collectively. 10 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 39 marked for 11 identification by the court reporter.) 12 Q (By Mr. Centola) This is part of the 13 production. Actually, the first page is AYD 000005, 14 second page is 6, and then the third page and 15 thereafter is 1 through 4. Let's take them a page at a 16 time, Mr. Papageorge. The first page is, purports to 17 be a letter dated October 4, 1976, to Mr. David N. Dry, 18 President, Aydin Energy Systems. Do you see that? 19 A I do. 20 Q And it's purported to be prepared by R.G. 21 Potter. Do you see that? 22 A I do. 23 Q Again, you testified a moment ago that you 24 are familiar with Mr. Potter's signature? 25 A I am. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069573 215 1 Q Is that his signature? 2 A It doesn't look like it. 3 Q It doesn't, okay. Was it his practice to 4 have other people sign his name for him, too? 5 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, calls for 6 speculation. 7 A I don't, I don't know whether it was his 8 practice or not. 9 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay. Now, have you ever 10 seen this letter before? 11 A I saw it in preparation for this deposition. 12 Q Okay. But prior to today, you had not? 13 A That is correct. 14 Q And with respect to the next page, which is a 15 December 28, 1977, letter to Dave Wood at Monsanto, do 16 you see that? 17 A I do, yes. 18 Q Okay. And signed by Charles L. Robertson, do 19 you see that? 20 A I do. 21 Q Executive Vice President of Energy Systems? 22 A I do. 23 Q Have you ever seen this before? 24 A No. 25 Q Going back to the first page of this exhibit. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069574 216 1 did, in fact, Monsanto cease manufacture of 2 polychlorinated biphenyls used as dielectrics, 3 dielectrics in 1977? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And after thatdate, sir, were they sold, 6 were they -- were all sales discontinued to customers? 7 A That is right. 8 Q Okay. And were all of your customers, as a 9 matter of course, custom, and habit at Monsanto, 10 notified in or about 1976 that Monsanto would, in fact, 11 cease manufacture and sale of PCB containing 12 materials? 13 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, calls for 14 speculation. 15 A Yes. 16 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay. 17 MR. CARNEY: Let me object, too, I didn't get 18 a chance to object. By in or about, do you mean on or 19 before? 20 21 it. MR. CENTOLA: Okay, let me, let me rephrase 22 MR. CARNEY: That's a little vague. 23 Q (By Mr. Centola) You testified, sir, that as 24 part of your employment at Monsanto, you were to be 25 kept, you kept abreast of all the developments with TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069575 217 1 respect to PCB's and the environment as of 1970 when 2 you began your position back in St. Louis; is that 3 correct? 4 A That is correct. 5 Q Okay. And during the course of that time, 6 sir, you kept yourself abreast of the methodologies, 7 toxicity studies, and all studies made to effectively 8 replace PCB's in use in capacitors and transformers; is 9 that correct? 10 A That is correct. 11 Q So it was part of your job to keep informed 12 of what was taking place in terms of replacing PCB's in 13 terms of a dielectric fluid? 14 A That is correct. 15 Q Okay. And did you learn, did there come a 16 time when you learned during the course of your 17 employment that, in fact, Monsanto had made a decision 18 to cease manufacturing PCB containing materials and to 19 cease selling those materials? 20 A Yes, I did. 21 Q Okay. And when was that, sir? 22 MR. CARNEY: Let me just for the record 23 indicate that I think there's some documentation that 24 might be of assistance in giving the witness a more 25 exact date, but if you can give an estimate, feel free TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069576 218 1 to do so. 2 A Yes. I was aware of this decision before the 3 documents were prepared. 4 Q (By Mr. Centola) Well, there are some dates 5 on that letter there. Does that refresh your 6 recollection? 7 A Yes. It was in the early summer of 1977 that 8 I was made aware by the managers of the business that 9 they were going to inform customers of the decision to 10 terminate manufacture and sales in 1977. 11 Q Okay. And did they, in fact, inform 12 customers of that, sir? 13 A Yes, they did. 14 Q And did they do that as part of the custom, 15 habit, and regular course of business of Monsanto to 16 inform all of their purchasers of dielectric fluids 17 containing PCB's that they would no longer be producing 18 those after 1977? 19 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, calls for 20 speculation. 21 A They did. 22 Q (By Mr. Centola) And, in fact, did Monsanto 23 stop the manufacture and sale of those products? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. Now, if you could turn to page AYD TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069577 219 1 000002 of the same exhibit, which is Exhibit 39, we 2 have what purports to be a letter dated September 13, 3 1976, to Gentlemen from David Wood. But before we get 4 to this, Mr. Papageorge, did there come a time when 5 your position changed after you became involved in the 6 position that you took as of January 1, 1977? I 7 believe it was an Environmental -- what was your 8 position title? 9 MR. CARNEY: I think you misspoke on the 10 year. 11 Q (By Mr. Centola) 1970, I should say. 12 A Initially the title of that position was 13 Manager of Environmental Control. 14 Q Right. Then it changed a couple of times 15 during the course of your employ? 16 A That is correct. 17 Q Now, did there come a time when your job 18 ceased as described when you told me what you did in 19 1970? 20 A My assignment to that job -- 21 Q Yeah. 22 A -- was terminated in February of 1976. 23 Q Okay. What happened in February of 1976? 24 A There was a reorganization within Monsanto, 25 the product groupings were revised, and the PCB's were TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069578 220 1 assigned to another individual. 2 Q And who was that? 3 A A J.C. Weber. 4 Q What position did you take? 5 A I had the same title. 6 Q Right. 7 A Manager of Product Acceptability for an 8 entirely different set of products produced by 9 Monsanto. 10 Q What products were those? 11 A As I remember, they were called chemical 12 intermediates or process chemicals or, I'm a little bit 13 vague on that, but they did not include the PCB's. 14 Q After February of 1976, did you still, 15 however, maintain -- strike that. After February of 16 1976, did you still make an effort to remain familiar 17 with the developments of PCB's? 18 A Yes. I served as a sort of unofficial 19 consultant to my, the person who replaced me. 20 Q That was Mr. Weber? 21 A Mr. Weber, yes, sir. 22 Q When, in fact, did you leave Monsanto? 23 A When did I -- 24 Q Retire from Monsanto? 25 A The end of 1986. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069579 221 1 Q And from February of 1976 to the end of 1986, 2 did you maintain the same position? 3 A No. 4 Q Okay. Tell me what, if anything, happened? 5 A In -- let me get my dates close to accurate 6 here. As I remember, in the latter part of '76, I was 7 appointed Director of Environmental Operations for an 8 operating unit of Monsanto referred to as Monsanto 9 Intermediate Chemicals Company. And I had that 10 position until 19 -- about, about 1983. At that time, 11 there was another reorganization that took place, and I 12 maintained the same title of Director of Environmental 13 Operations for an operating unit in Monsanto referred 14 to as the Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company. And I 15 held that position until the end of 1985. At that 16 time, another reorganization took place, and I was 17 appointed Manager of Occupational Health for a new unit 18 in Monsanto referred to as the Monsanto Chemical 19 Company until I retired. 20 Q Okay. Now, thank you. Let's go back to that 21 document, that September 13, 1976, letter. This will 22 now put it in more perspective in light of your 23 employment. Do you see the second page of that, of 24 that letter? 25 A I do. The second page of the October 4? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069580 222 1 Q No, the September 13, 1976, letter. 2 A September 13, I see that. 3 MR. CARNEY: Which are the last two pages of 4 Exhibit 39. 5 MR. CENTOLA: The last -- 6 MR. CARNEY: Or last page. 7 MR. SUMMERS: I think there's one more. 8 MR. CENTOLA: There's one more. 9 A My last page is dated October 29. 10 Q (By Mr. Centola) Yeah, there is one more. 11 I'll give you that page. Do you see the name David 12 Wood? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Who is David Wood? 15 A He's a Monsanto employee, and at the time of 16 this letter, he was the Manager of Dielectric Fluids, 17 similar in assignment to the one Mr. Benignus held up 18 until 1974. 19 Q Did he take over Mr. Benignus' position? 20 A Eventually he did. I don't recall whether he 21 did immediately or not. 22 Q Okay. But as of '76, he had taken over his 23 responsibilities? 24 A That is correct. 25 Q Are you familiar with David Wood's TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069581 223 1 signature? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Have you seen it in the past? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Is this, in fact, his signature? 6 A That's his. 7 Q Okay. Have you seen this letter before? 8 A Yes, I have. 9 Q When did you see this letter? 10 A I believe the earliest I recall seeing this 11 was about early part of 1977. 12 Q Okay. Do you know how -- 13 A Several months after it was issued. 14 Q Under what circumstances did you see this 15 letter? 16 A I was having a discussion with Mr. Wood, sort 17 of an update on activities and what had transpired in 18 the past six to twelve month period. At that time, he 19 showed me several documents that he had, and this was 20 one of them. 21 Q Okay. Was it your understanding that this 22 letter was made during the furtherance and during the 23 course of regular business of Mr. Wood at Monsanto? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And was it your understanding that this -- TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069582 224 1 strike that. Did you, did you come to an understanding 2 as to who this letter was sent to? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Who was it sent to? 5 A Let's see -- 6 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, calls for 7 speculation. 8 Q (By Mr. Centola) Strike that. During the 9 course of your employment at Monsanto, you told me you 10 had conversations with David Wood? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q And during the course of your employment and 13 during those conversations, did you come to an 14 understanding as to who this was sent to? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And who was it sent to? 17 A This was sent to transformer manufacturers 18 still purchasing dielectric fluids from Monsanto that 19 contained PCB's. 20 Q Okay. And that was sent out to them as a 21 matter of custom and habit and during the regular 22 course of business at Monsanto? 23 MR. SUMMERS: Same objection. 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q (By Mr. Centola) And customers of dielectric TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069583 225 1 fluids who were still purchasing received this; is that 2 correct? 3 MR. SUMMERS: Same objection. 4 A That's correct. 5 Q (By Mr. Centola) And this letter essentially, 6 this third paragraph says, "Since a number of changes 7 in recent months have impacted the manufacture and 8 future of Askarel transformers, we would like to take 9 this opportunity to update the status of Askarel 10 transformer manufacture at each of our accounts. 11 Therefore, would you please advise when you expect to 12 announce the termination of Askarel transformer 13 manufacture and the effective date of such action." Do 14 you see that? 15 A Yes. 16 Q What was he asking for from customers there, 17 sir? 18 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, calls for 19 speculation, too general. 20 Q (By Mr. Centola) Did you understand, during 21 the course of your conversations with him and during 22 the course of your employment, what was being asked 23 from customers? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q Okay, and what was that? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069584 226 1 A We were asking for a date which they had 2 targeted for the termination of transformers they were 3 manufacturing which contained PCB type electrical 4 fluids. 5 Q And why were you asking that from your 6 customers, sir? 7 A Because we wanted to use that information in 8 our planning regarding the exact dates in which we 9 could terminate production, make the proper shipments, 10 and eventually stop selling altogether. 11 Q Okay. Thank you. Just the last letter, last 12 page of the document, have you ever seen this before? 13 A I saw it for the first time the other day, 14 early part of this week. 15 Q Do you know who Thomas H. Lafferre is? 16 A Yes, I know. 17 Q Who is Mr. Lafferre? 18 A At that time, Mr. Lafferre was the marketing 19 director for a series of products including the PCB 20 type dielectric fluids. 21 Q Thank you. Mark thiscollectively as 22 Papageorge 40. 23 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 40 marked for 24 identification by the court reporter.) 25 Q (By Mr. Centola) What I've marked is a number TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069585 227 1 of letters. First letter is a September 29, 1976, 2 letter to customers advising a phase out and shut down 3 dates. Second letter is October 4, 1976, to Dear Sir 4 from R.G. Potter stating, "We are writing to advise you 5 that Monsanto will cease manufacture at Sauget, 6 Illinois, of all polychlorinated biphenyl products 7 used as dielectrics, effective October 31, 1977." Next 8 page is a blank page that says, "Domestic Customers, 9 User Location, Corporate Headquarters." The next page 10 is a letter from Mike Petrilli, P-E-T-R-I-L-L-I. The 11 next page is a blank form page that says, "User 12 Location, Corporate Headquarters." The next page is an 13 October 4, 1976, letter. Dear Sir, from Mr. Potter; and 14 the last page is a letter to Dear Customer from James 15 Alley. Have you seen any of these documents before, 16 sir? 17 A Yes, I have. 18 Q Let's start with the first page, sir. Have 19 you seen this page before? 20 A No. 21 Q Okay. Do you know who David Wood is? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q Okay, we've already, do you recognize the 24 signature here? 25 A Yeah, he used to also sign it with just his TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069586 228 1 last name like that, yes. 2 Q Okay. Is that, in fact, his signature? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Have you seen, the second letter is 5 October 4, 1976. Do you see that? 6 A I saw that. 7 Q And do you recognize the signature on that 8 page? 9 A I do. 10 Q Okay. Whose signature is that? 11 A That's Mr. Bob, Robert Potter's signature. 12 Q And, in fact -- let's go back to the first 13 page. Sir, was this page, was this document prepared 14 during the regular course and in furtherance of 15 business by David Wood? 16 A As I understand it, yes. 17 Q Okay. And given the custom and practice and 18 habit of Monsanto, was this, was this document 19 maintained in the regular course of business in 20 Monsanto's files? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And, in fact, was this letter, this 23 memorandum -- strike that. Second page. Was, in fact, 24 this October 4, 1976, letter prepared during the course 25 of the regular business and in furtherance of the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069587 229 1 regular, regular business of Mr. Potter at Monsanto? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And that is, in fact, his signature? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And was a copy of this letter maintained 6 during the regular course of business in the files of 7 Monsanto? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Now, the third page is a, says, "Domestic 10 Customers, User Location," and then a column, and then 11 "Corporate Headquarters" under that. Do you see that? 12 A I do. 13 Q Have you ever seen this form before? 14 A I have not. 15 Q Okay. Go to the next page of the document, 16 which is a letter -- strike that. Which is a one page 17 document on what appears to be Monsanto stationery from 18 a Mike Petrilli. Do you know who Mike Petrilli is? 19 A I know the man, yes. 20 Q Have you ever seen this document before? 21 A No. 22 Q What is the Electronic Industries, Industries 23 Association? 24 A It is a trade association consisting of 25 members of industries that manufacture electronic TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069588 230 1 equipment or supply parts to the manufacturers of that 2 equipment. 3 Q Okay. Is it also referred to as EIA? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Did you ever hear of the "EIA Spill 6 Notification and Control Plan for Polychlorinated 7 Biphenyls"? 8 A I have, yes, I have. 9 Q When did you first hear of that plan? Let's 10 start with the decade, Mr. Papageorge. 11 A I believe 1976, as best I can recall. 12 Q Okay. Did you partake in preparing that 13 plan? 14 A I participated with that committee in EIA in 15 gathering the basic information. I did not participate 16 in the final drafting of the document. 17 Q Was there, in fact, a final drafting of that 18 document? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q And to the best of your recollection, can you 21 give me the approximate date of that? 22 A About, best I can, 1976. 23 Q And did you review, in fact, read over that 24 document, sir? 25 A Yes, I recall seeing it. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069589 231 1 Q Okay. Essentially, what was the purpose of 2 that document, sir? 3 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, calls for 4 speculation. 5 A The purpose was to inform those industries or 6 representatives of those industries that use PCB 7 dielectric fluids on how to properly handle, use, and 8 dispose of PCB containing wastes and products. 9 Q (By Mr. Centola) When did you first become 10 associated, if at all, with EIA? 11 A As best I recall, it was about 1974. 12 Q Okay. How did you become involved with the 13 EIA in 1974? 14 A One of Monsanto's customers, representatives, 15 was appointed a chairman of what they called a PCB ad 16 hoc committee, if I remember that correctly. He called 17 me and asked me to attend a meeting and review with 18 those present at that meeting the PCB environmental 19 story, if I can call it that. 20 Q Okay. 21 A So I recall bringing a group up to date 22 regarding PCB's and the environment. 23 Q The "group" meaning the ad hoc PCB committee 24 of the EIA? 25 A That's the best of my recollection, yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069590 232 1 Q And that's approximately in 1974? 2 A I believe so, yes. 3 Q And where did that meeting, where did that 4 meeting take place? 5 A I don't recall exactly which was the first 6 one. There were several meetings I attended with a 7 group. I remember one in California, I just don't 8 remember the first one. 9 Q Okay. You mentioned there were several 10 meetings you attended of the EIA ad hoc PCB -- 11 A At least three. 12 Q Each time you attended, what did you do? 13 A I brought the group up to date on where the 14 PCB environmental issue stood. 15 Q Were you aware that the group, at some time, 16 was preparing a Spill Notification and Control Plan for 17 Polychlorinated Biphenyls? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q And did you give them information so they 20 were able to prepare, make that plan? 21 A I gave them information regarding Monsanto's 22 understanding of better ways to control, yes. I shared 23 all that with them. 24 Q And during the course of your meetings with 25 them, did you come to an understanding as to what the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069591 233 1 purpose was of the Spill Notification and Control Plan? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And you just testified to what that purpose 4 was; is that correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And that was, in fact, to advise customers 7 how to take care of spills of polychlorinated biphenyls 8 in the environment; is that correct? 9 A Spills as well as usage, storage, shipping, 10 and so on. 11 Q Okay. Thank you. Was, in fact, that plan 12 passed on to Monsanto's customers of dielectric 13 fluids? 14 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, calls for 15 speculation. 16 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay. When the plan was 17 completed, sir, was it part of your duty and 18 responsibilities at Monsanto in your position to have 19 the plan sent to customers at Monsanto? 20 A I don't recall if I was still actively 21 involved at the time. The dates escape me at the 22 moment. 23 Q Did you come to, did you achieve an 24 understanding as to whether that plan was sent to 25 Monsanto's customers? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069592 234 1 A Oh, yes, certainly. 2 Q How did you come about that information? 3 A In my periodic updates with individuals like 4 Mr. Wood and Dr. Paton and Mr. Potter. 5 Q And that was part of the course of your 6 business at Monsanto, was it not? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q And during the course of that business, did 9 you come to an understanding that, come to an 10 understanding that, in fact -- as a regular course of 11 Monsanto's business and as custom and habit there -- 12 that, in fact, the Notification Control Plan for 13 Polychlorinated Biphenyls was sent to all of 14 Monsanto's customers of dielectric fluids including 15 PCB's? 16 A Yes. 17 Q On the last page of this exhibit, sir, it's a 18 letter from James A. Alley. Do you see that? 19 A I do. 20 Q This exhibit being Exhibit 40. Who is James 21 A. Alley? 22 A Well, at the time, and this was about 1976 or 23 so, Mr. Alley was the technical person located in St. 24 Louis that worked with the marketing group that sold 25 dielectric fluids containing PCB's. He was the man TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069593 235 1 that, in essence, replaced Mr. Bryant in that type of 2 activity. 3 Q Of course, he was a Monsanto employee? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. Now, are you familiar with his 6 signature? 7 A No. 8 Q Did there come a time, this letter states -- 9 well, strike that. Did there come a time when Monsanto 10 stopped accepting polychlorinated biphenyl waste 11 returns from its customers? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And do you have a recollection as to when 14 that was? 15 A As best I can recall, it was about the end of 16 July of 1977. 17 Q Why did Monsanto stop accepting waste returns 18 of polychlorinated biphenyls, do you recall? 19 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, speculation. 20 Q (By Mr. Centola) Well, during the course of 21 your employment, did you come to an understanding as to 22 why Monsanto stopped accepting polychlorinated 23 biphenyl wastes? 24 A Well, there were several factors that entered 25 that decision. One was that -- TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069594 236 1 Q First, Mr. Papageorge, please, answer my 2 question. During the course of your employment at 3 Monsanto, did you come to an understanding during and 4 in furtherance of your employment as to why Monsanto 5 stopped accepting PCB wastes? 6 A I did come to an understanding. 7 Q Okay. And what were the factors involved in 8 that, sir? 9 A All right. Monsanto had terminated the sale 10 of PCB's -- I'm sorry. Monsanto had terminated the 11 manufacture of PCB's in July of 1977. Following that 12 termination, there was considerable inventory of PCB's 13 to be destroyed in the Monsanto incinerator. The unit 14 was, by that time, at least six years old and badly in 15 need of replacement. Since Monsanto was no longer 16 going to be in the PCB business, it was determined that 17 the unit would not be replaced. This was supported, 18 really, by the fact that there were now commercial 19 units of bigger capacities that could handle the 20 destruction of PCB's, and that seemed to be the wise 21 way to go in terms of destroying any other PCB's that 22 would be generated. Those thoughts entered into that 23 decision. 24 Q Thank you. By the way, Mr. Papageorge, when 25 -- we're done with that exhibit. You testified earlier TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069595 237 1 that, in fact, there came a point in time when Monsanto 2 ceased the manufacture of PCB's altogether, correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And you participated in the evolving 5 decisions of Monsanto, did you not, in ceasing that, 6 the manufacture and sale of those PCB's, did you not? 7 A To a degree, yes. 8 Q And is it fair to say that the reason why, 9 one of the reasons why Monsanto ceased the manufacture 10 and sale was because of its concerns with PCB's in the 11 environment during that time frame? 12 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, vague and ambiguous, 13 calls for speculation. 14 A Yes. 15 Q (By Mr. Centola) And did you, in fact, impart 16 that information to your clients, sir? 17 MR. SUMMERS: Same objection. 18 A Yes. 19 Q (By Mr. Centola) Now, did you ever hear, I 20 think we spoke about this briefly the other day, of an 21 agency called NEMA, N-E-M-A? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And what is NEMA, sir? 24 A NEMA is a trade organization consisting of 25 representatives of companies that manufacture TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069596 238 1 electrical equipment. 2 Q Okay. And did you, when was the first time 3 you became aware of NEMA? 4 A Gosh, ever since I started practicing 5 engineering. 6 Q Okay. Did there ever come a time when you 7 became associated with NEMA vis-a-vis your position 8 with PCB's at Monsanto? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And when was that? 11 A About 19 -- latter part of 1970, early '71. 12 Q And what was your first involvement with NEMA 13 and PCB's? 14 A My first involvement, I was, I recall being 15 invited to speak to a group of representatives of the 16 transformer and capacitor industries under the auspices 17 of NEMA. 18 Q Okay. Who attended that meeting? 19 A Representatives of the capacitor and 20 transformer manufacturing industries. 21 Q When you say representatives of 22 representatives of that, those industries, do you mean 23 actual manufacturers of capacitors and transformers 24 attended that meeting? 25 A Yes, the people that work for these TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069597 239 1 companies. 2 Q Do you know how invitations were made by 3 NEMA? 4 A I can share with you my understanding. 5 Q Okay. 6 A The executive administrator, Mr. Salazar, of 7 NEMA, called the meeting, to the best of my 8 recollection. I personally don't know whether he did 9 it by telephone or by mail. 10 Q Are you aware if all members of NEMA were 11 invited to the meeting or not? 12 A I do notknow. 13 Q And what was discussed at the meeting, do you 14 recall? 15 A I can only share with you the part where I 16 was present where I shared with them the latest -- 17 well, I gave them some, a brief history of PCB's and 18 the use in dielectrics, then I brought them up to date 19 on the environmental issue and shared with them 20 Monsanto's programs. 21 Q Okay. And this essentially was an open 22 meeting for anybody who was a member of NEMA, which 23 would be manufacturers of capacitors and transformers? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. Do you recall if your speech was TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069598 240 1 reduced to minutes or writing? 2 A I do not. 3 Q Okay. Did you, you mentioned that one 4 meeting at NEMA. Did you attend any other meetings at 5 NEMA where you discussed or were involved with PCB's? 6 A I hesitate because the future meetings held 7 were under the auspices of the American National 8 Standards Institute. 9 Q Okay. Let's talk about that. What is the 10 American National Standards Institute? 11 A This is an industry organization that is, 12 whose objective is to provide opportunity for 13 industries of all kinds to establish and distribute 14 standards that apply to each industry as each industry 15 saw fit. 16 Q What type of standards are you talking about? 17 A Oh, standards regarding dimensions of, say, 18 nuts and bolts. 19 Q Right. 20 A Standards regarding thecomposition of metal 21 or plastic. Standards regarding how to handle 22 material. 23 Q Right. Okay. 24 A Any, any standardthat a particular industry 25 felt would be helpful to the industry would be TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069599 241 1 processed under the auspices of the American National 2 Standards Institute. 3 Q Was this also referred to as ANSI? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Now, you said ANSI came under the auspices of 6 NEMA? Strike that. Okay. When I asked you if you 7 attended any other meetings of NEMA, you said you're 8 not sure if they were really NEMA or ANSI. Why is 9 there a confusion in your mind? 10 A Well, many of the individuals involved with 11 the ANSI activity -- 12 Q Right. 13 A -- were members of NEMA. In fact, the 14 executive administrator of NEMA served as the secretary 15 of the ANSI committee. 16 Q Was that Mr. Salazar? 17 A Mr. Salazar. So many of the notices of 18 meetings and minutes of meetings went out under the 19 letterhead of NEMA, but referred to the ANSI committee. 20 Q And was the ANSI committee in the business, 21 so to speak, of promulgating standards? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. And did the ANSI committee develop a, 24 develop and promulgate standards with respect to the 25 use, handling, and disposing of polychlorinated TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069600 242 1 biphenyls? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And did you participate in that effort? 4 A I did. 5 Q And in what capacity did you participate and 6 to what extent? 7 A I was appointed as chairman of the committee. 8 Q And what, approximately what time frame was 9 that? 10 A 1971 through the early part of, through the 11 latter part of '75. 12 Q And did, in fact, ANSI promulgate those 13 standards with respect to PCB's? 14 A I'm sorry? 15 Q Did, in fact, ANSI promulgate standards with 16 regard to PCB's? 17 A Yes, they did. 18 Q I'd like to mark as Papageorge 41 what 19 appears to be American National Standard Guidelines for 20 Handling and Disposing of Capacitor and Transformer 21 Grade Askarels Containing Polychlorinated Biphenyls. 22 It's a multiple page document, and if you will allow me 23 not to, I'm not going to count to tell you the pages 24 right now. 25 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 41 marked for TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069601 243 1 identification by the court reporter.) 2 Q (By Mr. Centola) Mr. Papageorge, I have just 3 put before you what we have just marked, I have just 4 marked as Papageorge Exhibit 41, which purports to be 5 the ANSI standards regarding polychlorinated 6 biphenyls. If you would just briefly look at that, 7 keeping in mind that I am going to ask you whether you 8 recognize this document or not. 9 A I have briefly reviewed it. 10 Q Are these the standards that we were 11 discussing earlier, sir? 12 A They -- yes. 13 Q Okay. Infact, it states on the second page 14 of this document, does it not, that these were approved 15 on January 9, 1974? Second page. 16 A It does. 17 Q And up on the top right hand page is C107. 18 Do you see that? 19 A I do. 20 Q And that is the designation of the committee 21 that prepared this standard? 22 A It is. 23 Q Okay. And onPage 4 of this document, 24 there's a foreword, and at the bottom of the foreword, 25 it has W.P. Papageorge, Chairman? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069602 244 1 A It does. 2 Q And A.M. Salazar, Secretary? 3 A It does. 4 Q Did you. in fact, prepare that foreword? 5 A Mr. Salazar wrote the initial draft, and 6 revised it slightly and, so I was involved. 7 Q Okay. And, in fact, you were involved in the 8 preparation of this entire document, were you not? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And you did that during the course of your 11 dealings with the ANSI C107 committee, which would have 12 the charge of, in fact, promulgating these standards, 13 sir? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And after these standards were finalized and, 16 in fact, they were copyrighted, were they not? 1974? 17 A Yes. 18 Q What was done withthese standards, to your 19 knowledge? 20 A Copies were distributed as widely as we 21 could. I don't know how to describe it. It was a big 22 distribution activity that took place. 23 Q From where? 24 A From the members of thecommitteeitself, 25 C107, NEMA as an organization took a very active role TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069603 245 1 and distributed copies, and Monsanto, in turn, made 2 sure that its customers got copies. 3 Q Let me talk about Monsanto. So is it fair to 4 say that during the course of your employment, 5 furtherance of your employment at Monsanto, in your 6 capacity with respect to keeping customers abreast of 7 developments in PCB's, that as part of your custom and 8 practice and as a regular course of your business at 9 Monsanto, you made sure that this document was 10 distributed to Monsanto's customers of record who 11 purchased dielectric fluids containing PCB's as of this 12 date? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And, in fact, that was done, sir? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Who else, other than yourself -- were 17 scientists and chemists involved in the preparation of 18 this document, sir? 19 A Oh, yes. 20 Q Okay. Give me an idea of some of the people 21 who were involved in the preparation of this document. 22 Could you identify some of them? 23 A Well, on the, starting on the fourth page at 24 the bottom, you will see a listing of organizations 25 represented on this committee as well as the names of TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069604 246 1 the representatives. 2 Q Okay. We have people who participated. Was 3 a Louis Wagner from Chem-Trol Pollution Services, Inc.? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q And the Doble Engineering Company? What is 6 the Doble Engineering Company? 7 A They were a company that was in the business 8 of servicing, repairing, overhauling, if you will, of 9 transformers throughout the country. 10 Q Okay. And I won't read the entire list, but 11 also I see here is a Kenneth H. -- Kenneth J. Hood from 12 the Environmental Protection Agency? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q So he was involved in the preparation of 15 these standards? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q And Rollins-Purle, Inc., do you see that, 18 sir? 19 A I do. 20 Q And were they in the business of disposing of 21 wastes, sir? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. And if we turn to, we go to the actual 24 body of the document, we turn to Page 16, which is the 25 numbered Page 16, not necessarily the 16th page of the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069605 247 1 document. 2 A I've found it. 3 Q Okay, it says "Caution" in the right hand 4 column. Do you see it? 5 A I see it, under 4.2.2. 6 Q It says, "Caution," yes, "Theinsulating 7 liquid in this transformer contains polychlorinated 8 biphenyls (PCB's). Care should be taken to prevent 9 entry into the environment." Do you see that? 10 A I do. 11 Q So this document again, is it not fair to 12 say, stressed once more the imperative that PCB's 13 should not be allowed to escape into the environment? 14 A They do. 15 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, vague and ambiguous, 16 calls for speculation. 17 Q (By Mr. Centola) Did your involvement with 18 ANSI discontinue after the promulgation of these 19 standards, sir? 20 A No, I continued as Chairman until I was 21 assigned chemicals other than PCB types in 1975, late 22 '75. 23 Q Is it fair to say that there were a few 24 people more knowledgeable about -- strike that. Mark 25 this as Papageorge 42. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069606 248 1 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 42 marked for 2 identification by the court reporter.) 3 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay. What I've marked as 4 42 is a document entitled "The Disposal of Scrap 5 Askarel and Solid Waste Contaminated with Askarel, 6 presented by W.B. Papageorge at the 1972 Doble Client 7 Conference." Do you see that? 8 A I do. 9 Q Okay. Do you, in fact, recognize this 10 document, sir? 11 A I do. 12 Q Was this document, in fact, prepared by you, 13 sir? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And was this prepared by you while you were 16 working at Monsanto, sir? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Okay. What isthe, I'msorry, I know I asked 19 you this already, but what again is Doble? 20 A Doble is a company that services 21 transformers. 22 Q Okay. What was the Doble Client Conference? 23 A The Doble Company called a meeting of some of 24 its customers and invited me to attend and make a 25 presentation. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069607 249 1 Q Who -- why did they contact you, sir? Do you 2 recall how it was presented to you, the invitation? 3 A Well, I had been talking, I forget the name 4 of the gentleman, with a representative of the Doble 5 Engineering Company regarding the proper handling of 6 PCB's and where do they stand regarding the 7 understanding PCB's and the environment, this type of 8 discussion. And as a result of that personal contact, 9 he got the idea that he should hold a conference of his 10 key customers and invite me to at least make a 11 presentation. And I was not the only person on the 12 agenda, he had other matters to discuss, but my role 13 was to present what's in this document. 14 Q Was, was attending conferences of this nature 15 part of your job at Monsanto? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Okay. And so as part of your job, you would 18 attend, when requested by the industry that was using 19 PCB's, you would, in fact, go to conferences, make 20 speeches, make presentations? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And this, in fact, then, this speech was 23 prepared during the course of and in furtherance of 24 your position at Monsanto? 25 A Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069608 250 1 Q And do you know if a copy of this speech was 2 kept in the file of Monsanto during the regular course 3 of business there? 4 A Yes, it was. 5 Q Now, sir, do you remember how well attended 6 this meeting was? 7 A Oh, I don't know how to describe it. I 8 remember it was a room full of people, best I recall, 9 about thirty. 10 Q Okay. Were the people there expressing their 11 concern with the developments they had heard about 12 concerning PCB's entering the environment and the 13 potential problems thereto? 14 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, vague and 15 ambiguous. 16 A Certainly. 17 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay. And, in fact, did you 18 address those concerns in this speech, sir? 19 A I tried to, yes. 20 Q Okay. Do you know if this speech was 21 distributed to people other than at the Doble Client 22 Conference? 23 A I do not know. 24 Q Okay. Thank you. Do you recall if, in 1974, 25 Monsanto conducted a symposium on dielectric fluid for TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069609 251 1 capacitors and transformers? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Where was that symposium held; do you recall? 4 A In St. Louis. 5 Q And who was invited to that symposium, 6 please? 7 A Customers of Monsanto who purchased PCB type 8 dielectric fluids. 9 Q Do you know if invitations were sent out to 10 those customers? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And were, in fact, invitations sent out to 13 all of Monsanto's customers of dielectric fluids 14 containing PCB's for the manufacture of capacitors and 15 transformers as of 1974? 16 A Yes. 17 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, speculation. 18 Q (By Mr. Centola) Okay. So was it your charge 19 as part of your duties as Monsanto to make sure that 20 those customers were, in fact, invited? 21 A Not to me personally. 22 Q Okay. Was it part of -- who -- let's do it, 23 let me ask you this. Who organized the symposium at 24 Monsanto? 25 A As best I recall, it was organized by Mr. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069610 252 1 Benignus and his team. 2 Q Were you involved, did he involve you in the 3 organization of the symposium? 4 A Oh, yes, in the structuring, the agenda, 5 items to be discussed and speakers and the like. 6 Q Did they work with you in deciding who should 7 be invited to that symposium? 8 A Very briefly. It was automatically those who 9 we sell to. 10 Q Okay. So was it your understanding through 11 the information you acquired at your, in your position 12 at Monsanto that Monsanto, as a matter of custom and 13 habit and during the regular course of its business, 14 invited its dielectric fluid customers that used PCB's 15 to that symposium? 16 A Yes, definitely. 17 Q And what was the, through your involvement 18 with Mr. Benignus in going through the structure of the 19 symposium, what, in fact, were you -- what was, in 20 fact, the purpose of the symposium? 21 A The purpose was primarily an update of where 22 the environmental issue relating to PCB's stood. 23 Q In this symposium, again, did you stress the 24 imperative of keeping PCB's out of the environment? 25 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, vague and ambiguous. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069611 253 1 A Yes. 2 Q (By Mr. Centola) And do you know that, in 3 fact, through your personal knowledge in setting this 4 symposium up, sir? 5 A Yes, sir. In fact, I personally used those 6 very words. 7 Q Okay. In fact, is it fair to say that the 8 theme of your job throughout the 1970's was to, one of 9 the major themes of your job was to convince customers 10 that they should take every precaution possible to keep 11 PCB's out of the environment because of the growing 12 concerns of PCB's in the environment? 13 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, vague and ambiguous. 14 A Yes. 15 Q (By Mr. Centola) Would you mark this as 16 Papageorge 43? 17 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 43 marked for 18 identification by the court reporter.) 19 MR. CARNEY: You want to take a break? 20 MR. SUMMERS: Maybe we should take a short 21 break. 22 (A brief recess was taken at this point in 23 time.) 24 Q (By Mr. Centola) Mr. Papageorge, I have just 25 placed before you a document which I have marked as TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069612 254 1 Exhibit 4, Papageorge Exhibit 43, and it says 2 "Polychlorinated Biphenyl (PCB), A Presentation to the 3 Effluent Standards and Water Quality Information 4 Advisory Committee, by Monsanto Industrial Chemicals 5 Company, November 29, 1973." Have you ever seen this 6 document before? 7 A I have. 8 Q Okay. When was the first time you saw this 9 document? 10 A Well, I prepared it back in '73. 11 Q And did you prepare this document during and 12 in furtherance of your regular course of employment at 13 Monsanto? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And did you acquire the information that is 16 contained in that document during and in furtherance of 17 the regular course of your employment at Monsanto? 18 A I did. 19 Q And was a copy of this maintained in the file 20 as a regular course of business at Monsanto? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And Mr. Papageorge, can you tell me the 23 circumstances under which you prepared this document? 24 A We were aware that the Advisory Committee to 25 the Effluent Standards of Water Quality for EPA was TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069613 255 1 going to hold public meetings at which the public was 2 asked to participate. And since PCB's were one of the 3 chemicals under consideration, we asked and were 4 accepted as participants. And I prepared this report 5 to share with members of that committee on the date of 6 the meeting, November 29, 1973. 7 Q Okay. And was this, in fact, presented to 8 the EPA? 9 A Yes, to the, to the committee, an advisory 10 committee to the EPA. 11 Q Right. And this was part of a process to 12 educate the public with respect to the -- 13 A That was part of Monsanto's purpose here, 14 yes. 15 Q And on the second page of this document, 16 there's a subheading called "What has industry done to 17 keep PCB out of the environment," do you see that? 18 Actually it's the first page of the writing, second 19 page of the document altogether. 20 A Oh, at the bottom. I see it. 21 Q Okay. And you mention there that researchers 22 discovered that PCB could possibly be affecting certain 23 forms of wildlife. Do you see that? 24 A I do. 25 Q And thereafter, on the next page, you go TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069614 256 1 through the program, some of the things that Monsanto 2 has done to help limit the, to help keep the product 3 out of the environment. Is that correct? 4 A That is correct. 5 Q That's not an exhaustive list, is it? 6 A Oh, no. 7 Q Okay. Do you know if this document was 8 distributed to anyone other than the advisory committee 9 at the EPA? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Who was thisdocument distributed to? 12 A It was shared withcustomers. 13 Q And was it therefore custom and habit and as 14 a regular course of business at Monsanto to, in fact, 15 distribute this document to the customers of record at 16 Monsanto in November of 1973 who purchased dielectric 17 fluids containing PCB's? 18 A It was. 19 (Papageorge Exhibit No. 44 marked for 20 identification by the court reporter.) 21 Q I will, you have before you another document 22 that would be marked as Papageorge, I've just marked as 23 the next exhibit in order, Papageorge 44, which is a 24 presentation to the Interdepartmental Task Force on 25 PCB's, Washington, DC, May 15, 1972, by Monsanto TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069615 257 1 Company. Okay, sir. Are you familiar with this 2 document? 3 A I am. 4 Q And howare you familiar with it? 5 A I was personally involved in its preparation. 6 Q Who else wasinvolved in itspreparation? 7 A Dr. Paton, Dr. Ralph Munch, and Dr. E. Scott 8 Tucker. 9 Q Are the people you just named, were they, in 10 fact, employees of Monsanto? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Can you tell me what areas they were doctors 13 in? 14 A They were all doctors in chemistry. 15 Q And what is the Interdepartmental Task Force 16 on PCB's? Or what was it, I should say? 17 A It was a group of representatives of 18 governmental administrations, agencies, and departments 19 who were in some way involved with PCB's. This group 20 met to share all kinds of information relating to 21 PCB's. 22 Q And did you and the good doctors prepare this 23 document during and in furtherance of your regular 24 course of business at Monsanto? 25 A Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069616 258 1 Q And did you and the others acquire the 2 information that is contained in this document during 3 and in furtherance of their ordinary course of business 4 at Monsanto? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And is this, in fact, a copy of the final 7 form of that document, sir? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. And was a copy of this document 10 maintained during the regular course of business in the 11 business files of Monsanto as a business record? 12 A Yes. 13 Q There are, in this document -- strike that. 14 Was part of the, was, in fact, an oral presentation 15 made to the Interdepartmental Task Force on PCB's? Was 16 an oral presentation made to that Task Force by 17 Monsanto? 18 A This was oral. 19 Q Okay. 20 A There were other meetings also oral. 21 Q But, in fact, it was reduced to writing? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. Now, on the back of this document, 24 there are pages that look like this. Can you turn to 25 those pages? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069617 259 1 A I see, yes. 2 Q Can you hold them up? 3 A Here's an example of one. 4 Q Okay. Were those, in fact, slides that were 5 prepared? 6 A Yes. They were. They were slides used and 7 projected on a screen for the audience to see. 8 Q Okay. And some of the areas you discussed 9 were degree of biodegradation of PCB's? 10 A That was one of the principal topics of this 11 discussion, yes. 12 Q Was the, was there, the effect of the phase 13 out policy discussed? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Was the issue of keeping PCB's out of the 16 environment discussed? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And was Monsanto's present program to prevent 19 environmental pollution by PCB's discussed? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Was this document shared with others, people 22 other than those that were in the Interdepartmental 23 Task Force on PCB's? 24 A To a degree, yes. 25 Q Okay. What degree? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069618 260 1 A Copies were made available to Monsanto 2 individuals who called on customers. 3 Q Right. 4 A And if the customer had the interest and the 5 scientific staff to understand this kind of report, 6 they would generally ask for a copy, and the copy would 7 be given to them. 8 Q Did you make it, was it part of your charge 9 to make sure that this document was made available to 10 your sales and marketing force? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And was it part of your job to inform them 13 that if a customer wanted this information, it would be 14 made available to them? 15 A Certainly. 16 Q Do you know if, in fact, this type, this 17 document was passed out to customers? 18 A Oh, yes. 19 Q Okay. Can we turn off for a second? 20 (A brief off the record discussion was held 21 at this point.) 22 Q (By Mr. Centola) Mr. Papageorge, did you ever 23 hear of a PCB ad hocsampling program? 24 A Yes. 25 Q What is a PCB ad hoc sampling program, or TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069619 261 1 what was it? 2 A The Electronic Industries Association that we 3 referred to earlier, the EIA? 4 Q Right. 5 A The PCB ad hoc committeeproposed a program 6 amongst its members that use PCB's in their 7 manufacturing sites to participate in a group program 8 for determining how much, if any, PCB's were in their 9 water effluence from their plants. That's the 10 beginning of that particular program. 11 Q When did that begin? 12 A About 1973. I don'tremember the exact 13 year. '72, '73 period. 14 Q And did Monsanto, in that time period, invite 15 its customers to send samples of its, of their 16 effluence to you? 17 A I don't know that I'd call it so much an 18 invitation. It's better to describe it as we were 19 asked by the EIA ad hoc committee if we would assist in 20 that program. 21 Q Okay. 22 A And we were happy to do so, and we said our 23 laboratory services are available for this program. 24 Q Now, did Monsanto customers, were Monsanto 25 customers informed of this program, do you know? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069620 262 1 A Yes, through the EIA. 2 Q Okay. And did Monsanto customers, in fact, 3 begin to send effluence to Monsanto to be sampled? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Do youknow if Energy Systems did? 6 A I do not know. 7 Q So is it fair to say that at least by 1973, 8 Monsanto's customers were aware, made aware of a 9 program in which Monsanto was assisting in testing 10 effluence? 11 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, vague and ambiguous, 12 speculation. 13 A Yes. 14 Q (By Mr. Centola) In your preparation of your 15 reports, the various reports, and in particular, those 16 reports concerning the spills concerning PCB's, did it 17 come to your attention that a frequent source of spills 18 of PCB's would be at the loading and unloading of bulk 19 deliveries? 20 MR. SUMMERS: Objection, vague and ambiguous. 21 Q (By Mr. Centola) For instance, where trucks 22 would deliver the PCB's in platforms and so on? Do you 23 have a recollection? 24 A I have a recollection of the potential for 25 such leakage to occur. I never did get the impression TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069621 263 1 that it was a principal source of spills. 2 Q Right. But are these, you said you had the 3 impression that this was a potential source; is that 4 correct? 5 A That it was occurring, it was always a 6 potential for a big problem to occur. 7 Q And do you recall Monsanto making 8 recommendations to customers that where PCB's are 9 delivered, they should use concrete platforms that were 10 not porous, not gravel? 11 A Yes, I made those personally. 12 Q Okay. And did you make other recommendations 13 to customers during the '72, '73 time frame with 14 respect to curbing? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Curbing being used to restrict the spills of 17 PCB's? 18 A Correct. 19 Q And did you make recommendations to 20 customers, Mr. Papageorge, with respect to keeping the 21 PCB's out of sumps that could, in fact, be discharged 22 into the environment or to sewers? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. And you did this as a matter of custom 25 and habit and as the course of your ordinary business TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069622 264 1 to make customers of aware of these suggestions that 2 you developed; is that correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Do you remember making suggestions to 5 customers that if they were to wash down areas with 6 hoses or water, that they should be careful not to let 7 that water that may contain PCB to get into sumps or 8 drains that would lead into sewer systems? 9 A I do remember that, yes. 10 Q What time frame was that, sir? 11 A Oh, from the very beginning. 1970 and on. 12 Q And that was part of your charge and part of 13 your custom and habit and during the regular course of 14 your business to inform your customers of record of 15 that kind of thing? 16 A Yes. 17 MR. CARNEY: Seems to me we're getting a 18 little repetitive on some of these questions, and I 19 only say that because I'd like to get this concluded 20 before noon when I have a meeting. 21 MR. SUMMERS: I'll join that. 22 MR. CENTOLA: Thank you for your time, Mr. 23 Papageorge. 24 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 25 MR. SUMMERS: Do you have anything? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069623 265 1 MR. CARNEY: No, I don't have anything and 2 don't intend to. 3 MR. SUMMERS: If we could maybe just go off 4 for a second, it shouldn't be much. 5 (A brief off the record discussion was held 6 at this point.) 7 CROSS EXAMINATION 8 QUESTIONS BY MR. SUMMERS: 9 Q Hello, Mr. Papageorge, my name is Harry 10 Summers, as you probably remember. 11 A Yes. 12 Q I represent Aydin in this action, and I have 13 just a couple of quick questions, couple of follow up. 14 If you would please refer to Exhibit 33 which has been 15 markedas Exhibit 33 toyour deposition? 16 A I have it. 17 Q And I believe you reviewed and discussed this 18 document on Tuesday. Do you remember that? 19 A I do. 20 Q Okay. And I believe, if I recall correctly, 21 you stated that this was a, the form of this letter was 22 a general letter sent to customers of Monsanto; is that 23 correct? 24 A General in terms of the topics discussed, 25 yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069624 266 1 Q Okay. So what I'm, what I'm driving at is 2 that the fact that a particular customer such as Aydin 3 Energy Systems would have received, or -- let me 4 rephrase. Strike that. The fact that a particular 5 customer would have been the addressee of this letter, 6 that fact would not indicate that a particular, that 7 particular customer, in fact, had any of the problems, 8 potential problems discussed in this letter, would it? 9 A No, it did not indicate whether it had or did 10 not have. 11 Q Okay. So based on Exhibit 33, you would have 12 no reason to think that Aydin or Energy Systems had any 13 of those potential problems; is that correct? 14 A Not from this letter, no. 15 MR. SUMMERS: Okay. That's it. That's all I 16 have. Thank you. 17 MR. CENTOLA: Let's go off the record for a 18 moment. 19 (A brief off the record discussion was held 20 at this point in time.) 21 MR. CENTOLA: According to, we've had a brief 22 discussion off the record, and we've agreed that Mr. 23 Papageorge will receive a copy of the transcript with 24 exhibits to have an opportunity to review and sign 25 pursuant to the applicable rules. Thank you. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069625 267 1 (Wherein the deposition was concluded.) 2 3 (Deposition to be read and signed by the 4 witness.) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069626 ORIGINAL 267 1 ALL CORRECTIONS THAT I HAVE SEEN FIT TO MAKE APPEAR 2 ON THE FOLLOWING CORRECTION SHEETS. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 William Papageorge 15 16 Subscribed and sworn to before me on this 17 /?*. day of , 19 18 JOSEPHINE S. HiBLCCK NOTARY PUBLIC STATE OF MISSOURI 19 My Commission expires ST. LOUIS COUNTY MY COmiSSION EXP-.- dwN: 20 21 Z3L. 22 Notary Public 23 24 25 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069627 268 1 NOTARIAL CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF MISSOURI ) ) 3 CITY OF ST. LOUIS ) 4 I, TARA R. RILEY, a Shorthand Reporter and a duly commissioned Notary Public within and for the 5 State of Illinois, do hereby certify that there came before me at the offices of Kohn, Shands, Elbert, 6 Gianoulakis & Giljum, One Mercantile Center, St. Louis, Missouri, on December 17 and the offices of Husch & 7 Eppenberger, 100 North Broadway, St. Louis, Missouri, on December 19, 8 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, 9 who was by me first duly sworn to testify to the truth 10 and nothing but the truth of all knowledge touching and concerning the matters in controversy in this cause; 11 that the witness was thereupon carefully examined under oath and said examination was reduced to writing by me; 12 and that this deposition is a true and correct record of the testimony given by the witness. 13 I further certify that I am neither attorney 14 nor counsel for nor related nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition is 15 taken; further, that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto 16 or financially interested in this action. 17 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and seal this 19th day of December, 1991. 18 19 20 (Notary Public) 21 22 23 24 25 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 WATER PCB-SD0000069628 WITNESS: DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET In Re: (JUjcLu^ C&^pQh&LQA^ </<;. <xJ$ [J-MXQiA^-- Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page i(3 Line IH and /s" Should read ------------a ff)ort*ar\l-v Genera I Manager------------- Reason assigned for change: t rtcorrecf 4HI^, Page Line To 8 Reason assigned for Should read change: ?un cdvaben . p rotframs and its . -5 pelhnej . c\ ^pfOache5 -- - Page y *4 Line */ Should read , _______ ~H> *Wr. . Kcr-eje*1 -- - Reason assigned for change:;'6 Page 67 Line to Should read , 0$ record 3T {Wan 5 an 4t) 5 Reason assigned for change: ~X ncc>rrec( vuond PCo - - - Page Line Should read . l 7 17 rdpcrt ~f-o Khib/4 Reason assigned for change: , . ._ 'X^nCOrrecX nv m Orr */ - - - Page l O (a Line 1/ Should read W\alerta/*> carrhxt'n m(j Reason assigned for change: 'X.ncorreef Laoref Pc $ S. Page mo Line 1/ Should read -- -- - C hCsrtt C-q f$ 0 pdtnij Q *1 Reason assigned for change: 3pell,^ Page (M7 Line Should read_ , X hare, n o> Reason assigned for change: "X-ki cor rc-cj- <-u o rd Page Line Should read Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read Reason assigned for change: Deponent WATER PCB-SD0000069629