Document yK7d4ZjmyoVB0x8MrOzdEaO2
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF MISSOURI
CAST
.OJ VISION
R T OAV IS, ET Al . ,
r>
RECEi VEDSEP 3 01985
PLAINTiffs,
CAUSE NO. 80-722CC4) i_
V.
.r u.
l. L
0 ^ `'J*
TURNER
NFWALL,LTD.,LT DEFENDANTS.
AL.,) ) )
SAINT LOUIS, MISSOURI MARCH 8-11, 1982.
EXCEPPTS OF TRIAL TEST I MONY OF
ARTHUR DAVID NICHOLAS JONES
TRANSCRIPT OF EXCEPPTS OF PROCEEDINGS HAD IN ThL
ABOVE-STYLED CAUSE BEFORE THE HONORABLE WILLIAM L. HUNGA! ; .
JUDGE OF T HI DISTRICT COURT OF THE UNITED STATES, EASTERN
DISTRICT 01 MISSOURI, EASTERN DIVISION, AND A JURY DULY
I NNANl I L D .
APPEARANCES
MR. JAMES E. HULLVEPSON AND MR. RONALD L. Mu 1 LE> . ATTORNEYS K)R PLAINTIFFS
MR. JAMES J. SHOEMAKE, MR. SAMUEL C. ERLING, MR. ' H. R INGRAM!', AND MR. R. BRUCE SHAW, ATTORNEYS FOR l' [ - E N D . TURNER NLWALL LI M I TED AND TURNER ASBESTOS FIPPES, LTD.
MR. HERALD D. MORRIS AND MR. REED V/. SUGG, A! TORN: INK DtIENDANT ASBESTOS CORP., LTD.
MR. JOHN J. HOP.GAN AND MR. D. RAYMOND, ATTo-Nl. Y. HI M NDANT BILL ASBESTOS MINES, LTD.
MR. DAVID S. SLAVKIN, ATTORNEY FOR DEFCNDAN1 HUM: DEVELOPMENT CORP.
MR. IRANCIS H. KENNEDY, JR., MR. DAVID BEERS, AND MS. NANCY SHtA, ATTORNEYS FOR DEFENDANT BRINCO ASBESTOS LORI'., LTD.
MR. HOWARD BUMAN, MR. ROBERT P. NUMRICH, AND MR. L. WILSON, ATTORNEYS FOR DEPENDANT JOHNS-MANVILLE SALES CORI'ORAT I ON
MR. l.LORGE F. KOSTA, ATTORNEY TOR DEFENDANT SPEC I A _ MATERIALS, INC.
MR. JOSEPH MUELLLH, ATTORNEY FOR CERTAIN-TEED
.
PAT BAESKE
Crrn/*J Cowrt Rrpcntr Omfn tut of Mrr*
325 Joseph Dhvc BellevtlU, Illinois 62221
I NDC X
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i nl I ; N Y Hi ARTHUR OAVIi) N 1 C HO L A S JONES
MAR; h 8 . 1982:
DIRECT EXAM 1NAI ION (BY MR. SHOEMAKE) CROSS-EXAM 1NAr 1OM (BY MR. MOTLEY)-----CROSS-EXAM I MAT I ON (RY MR. BEERS)---------
MAR '119, 1 98 2:
CROSS-EXAMINATION CONTINUED CBY MR. BEERS) CROSS-EXAMINATION (BY MR. MORRIS)--------------------CROSS-EXAMINATION CBY MR. HORGAN)--------------------CROSS-EXAMINATION (BY MR. NUMRICH)....... ............... REDIRECT EXAMINATION (BY MR. SHOEMAKE)-------RLEkUSS-EXAM INA[ ION (BY MR. MOTLEY)---------------RLLROSS-EXAM I I.AT I ON (BY MR. NUMRICH)................
MAR h io, 1982:
RElROSS-EXAmiNAT I ON CBY MR. MORRIS)------------------------------RLCROSS-EXAM. i NAT I ON CONTINUED (BY MR. NUMRICh)-REERoSS-C XAM I NAT 1 ON (By MR. BEERS).......... .......................... TUR.'HER REDIRECT EXAMINATION (BY MR. ShOEmAKL)-F'JRiHLR R EC ROSS - [` XAM I NAT I ON (BY MR. HU E L V E - SON tURTHLR RE<. ROSS-E XAM | NAT | (JN (BY MR. NUwmCi!)--------
MAR. H li, 1982:
1
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i
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further recross-examination continued (BY MR . NUMR | CH)----------------------------------------- --------------------
FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION (BY MR. MORRIS)----------FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION (BY MR. SHOEMAKE)-FURTHER RECROSS-EXAM I NAT I ON (BY MR. BEERS)-------------
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MARCH 8. 19 8?
ARTHUR DAVID N I C HULAS JONES. 3 villi' A . A WlTNlV. ON 111 MA| ( Ml IIIL 1)1 II. NDAN 1 S TU-I.IF 4 1 ' , i ' \ l ' , W m SWORN AMD Il'.IIMID Ab lOLLOWb: 5 DIRECT EXAM INAT 1 ON
6 l< T MR . SHUI make :
7 !; <1- WOULD YOU b T A T E YOUR NAML FOR ThC COURT Ar.
8 l iP ' , i
9
l'l 1 A .1 ? r. . MY NAML ?
10
11 ,1 12 ,
0. WOULD fOU bTATL YOUR NAML? A . ARTHUR DAVID NICHOLAS JONIS. ( ) . AND WritRL DO YOU RESIDE, MR. JONIS?
13 ,
M , IN Tili U U 1 -- ON THE OUTSKIRTS uF MA Ml ' <l> 1 . -
14 1 MM. AM) .
15 ; 16 , 17
Q- AND AR! YO'J NOW RLTIRLD, SIR? A . 1 AM. '<> AND API YOU RETIRED KROM TURNER AND NLWALl
I i
i 18 L I M I 11 l) ?
19 A . YES .
20 Q- WOUIU YOU Tl LI. THE JURY, PLEASE , WHLN YUU PI I I'-'I '
21 A . 1 RtllRLD IN 1980.
i 22 O . WHEN DID YOU FIRST JOIN TURNER AND NLWALL Ll-lilD.
I,
;i 23
A . I JOINI.D TURNER Af.U NEWALL LIMITED IN 1 9U 2 .
24 |i
0- AND DIO YOU RLMAIN n I Th T rtA T FIRM FROM 1 9 ,
2b !' UNI II YOUR KillR t ML N T IN 1930?
1
1 A . 1 Dll'. 2 <K) ` CAN Yi'U 1 l l L 1 ML JURY WMLTHCR OR NO * f ` 1 J i , ; .1 ' j 'i , t *' Wl Rl. A 1 F. A i 10 INI, |A*YLR, HARRIS! II', i '. L
4 A . YLS, Mokl OP. LLSS BETWEEN THOSL DAI * 1 ,
5 Q ALL RIGHT. DID THERE COME A TIME W N o i 6 111 ( AMI 1 Ml OCRETARt ol 1 UR N E R AND NLWAl.L LIMITED >
; A . THLRL DID. 8 Q AND WMFN DID YOU BLCUML THE SL ( K11 A _ . >
9 A . THAI WAS IN lySS.
10 1
Q ALL WIGHT.
1 11 mi Assisi ant sf.cri i ar y ?
12 f~K , 1 WA j .
AND PRIOR To THAT TIME Wl RL 1
13 '
<<' TLl.1 F ML (.OURT AND JURY, PLEASE, w-< A 1 T J: '.:
M! 15
r<! wAi i
wAs AND IS A1 THE T 1 ML YOU JOINCD IT? A. AT TmAT TIME TURNER AND NEWALL WAS a mil; h.
'6 j.
17
t i imp an r . Q.
WHEN YOU SAY "MOLDING COMPANY," T[| i. The ui i
18 , 1
19 I1
WHAl
YOU M L A N , PLLAsL? A . WELL, IT WAS T ML COMPANY WHICH III l D
THE SNA'- . s
20 ij OF A NUMBLR OF OTHER COMPANIES ENGAGED IN VARIOUS ACT 1V1 T 1 i 3
I1
BOTH IN 1 Ml U . K . and UVI R SE as . 21 i!
!i
i LET Ml TAKl THEM ONE AT A TIME, IT 1 MA Y . 22 ;l
;D
i! T URNi R AND NLWALL t IMIUD OWN TlIL STOCK OF COMPAN IIS Ol `
23
:1
1 N 1 Ml UN 1 i LD KINGDOM? 24 ;
25 i
A . IT DID.
2
1
AMD WAS 1 HE R t A NAME OR DE S L K I I' I I < >1 < iA,
i < DMCAN I ! S '
WE U r I > I i i Rif IP It) THOSE AS 1 MI lit:'
'MSSVilt ,
t ( . HUM! GROUP. ALI RIGHT. AND DIO TUEGiR
Ml wA| I o*G till SOAR I .i of STOCK of COMPANIES lOCAlfi; ut. '
7 j T OL UN 1 TLU K1GGDOM?
i 81
1
9|
A . IT DID. Q- ALL RIMIT,
AT UNL T 1 ML WOULD THE-- WUULD I '
>
o
11 i i
12 i
13
1 N C L 1J1 ID KLAS BEY AND MAT II SON? A . YES, IT DID. i1) * AND WOLRI WAS KEASBEY AG D MA T T 1 SOfi LUiAUl'? A . THEY WLRl. LOCATED IN AMliLCR, PENNS'! l VAN 1 A .
14 '<' DID TURNl R AND GEwALL, AS A HOLD 1 NO L 0 M P A ', !
, IS l ) W f 4 I M| >jM/ k L S or SKILL or T'JRGLR ASEL s TUS r 1 BR E S
16 '
A. 1 T D10.
17 0 . AND WAS TURNER ASbESTUS fibres PART Of WO-.!
18 Y ' >U ' VI Dl S1 I'. IBED AS TOL HOME GROUP OF COMPANIIS?
1? t t;
20 i! [
21
A . YES, IT WAs. y- AGAIN, THAT MEANS IT WAS located in G R L A I i A . IT WAS LOCATED IN GRCAT BRITAIN.
j! 22
Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE WHERE WERE THE OF f ICES
23 ! TURNIK ASBESTOS FIBRES LOCATED?
24 A . THE IP OTKICLS WERE LOCATED IN--ON l G: 0 ;
26 1 1 "t if-". OK HE MFAD OF F I CL BU 1 LD 1 GG Of TURNER AND i * ! tV > -
3
I)-'. I 111' Iti HANCHLill R , tNOLAND. q. WERE TOU alV T ml S E l R t IARy F OK IubniR a
l I1 I ;
I WA .
i.
wiiA I
iii> - Wi 11 N mU I I M 1 Ml t
AND III WALL, Mini MAI. r i MI'lihEL j DID TURNER ASBiSTOS UB-i A. PROBAbl Y ABOUT A DOZEN, PERHAPS ONE 'OR T
AIL m I A DO,' I It .
0- WOULD THAT HAVE INCLUDED THE SECRETARIES? A . NO, 1 I WOULDN'T, IN FAC T .
Q.
ALL R ighi.
there were iz peoplt empluyed
A . 1 BIO- I OUR PARDON. YO'J 'RE US 1 NN 1 Ml .K"
AR 1 i M" AS Ml ANING THE LA[n SCORElARIls?
0- YLS . A . 1 war wONDi RING IF YOU MEANT Ml AND Mi A ,
0- NO . A . THAT WOULD include THE LADY SECRETARIES.
Q AND 1 Hi CLERKS? A . AND 1 HI CLERKS.
o. WHAT WAS THE BUS 1Nl SS OF TURNER ASBESTOS WMIUI IS A DEFENDANT III This CASE? WHAT was THE BUSlNfS'.
1URNLR A S 131 S T US F I BRi S '
A. IT WAS SUBSTANTIALLY THE BROKERING ARM For I I Bt R , UKul.l KING T 1 HER 01 TURNLR AND NLWALL LIMITED.
0- AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHEN YOU SAY "Till RK i l
1 M" ! WilAI DOES M MIAN III Bl A BkUkLR OF FIUI.R AS lUU
2 IN: 'I Pi! I'M) I r ?
3 A. IT MIA:.1, |1 WAS PAR I OF IMF COMPANY'k k| .
4 till I1IIS lo 0L AWAP.I o' IIBLP SOURCES AND TO JOIN TOi.Lli1-'
5 II must WHO WISHLD T (> I URCMAsL AND THOSE WHO HAD FI DIR To
6i
i}. ALL R I(,H1. (.AN YOU TLLL THE COURT AND J(i
7 'I Will. Ihtk OR NOT TURNl k ASBESTOS FIBRES OWNCD ANY Mil.Is AN
8 ;
A . NO, T III Y 0 1 ON ' T .
I'II
9 ' Q. CAN YUJ TLII THE COURT AND JURY, TO >oi,K > '.
10 WH! 111! W' OR , i 1 URNi R A shlSTOS FIBRES MINED ANY AS! : SO . i l i 1 i : A 1. ! w H R L ? i NO , 1 . r i D 1 ON ' T . 1 3 0 0 1 0 II Ml 1 L ANY M BEP. ANYWHl.Rf ? 14 A . NO .
15 0 D 1 D IT BAG ANY II BLR ANYWHERE? 16 A . NO .
17 0- D 1 D II TRANSPORT TIBER ANYWHERE?
18 A . NO .
19
<h
ALL R 1 l.HT
114 THE ORDINARY COURSE OF BUSINL
20 can YOU TLII THE COUP. T AND JURY WHETHER UR NOT TURNER ASP-' -IDS
21 j FIBRLS, ACTING AS a BROKER, WOULD EVER SEE any FIBER THAI I
22 I WA r. SHIPPED TO ANY CUSTOMER IN T HL UNITED STATES? 1 >1
23 A . NO . 1 14 T ML ORDINARY COURSE OF EVENTS IT W
24 Q. CAN YOU TLLL THE COURT AND JURY WHETHER or 25 ANi BA. I, LUNIAININf, ASBESTOS FIBER WOULD BEAR THE NAME IK
I.
II
s
) "t 1 01- ill R A .HlSTOS I I IIP; S ?
2 'k . NO , I T ,./< ' ll i >N ' 1 . 1
OR 1 U ' N! R AND NLwAH L I M I ILL)? 4 >. NO, IT WOOll-N'l. 5 o. CAN YOU 1 i L I T Ht COURT AND JURY WHEThIR (i 6 WHIN lURNIk ASBESTOS f IBRLS AC TLO AS A BROKER FOR FIBLR I'. 7 1HL UNITED MATES, WOULD THAT FIBER GO TO U.S. CUSTOMER'. 8 WI IHOUI GO I No TO I NOLAND> 9 A. YES, IT WOULD. 10 0. WOULD IT GO DIRECTLY FROM THE MINE TO THE CC 11-1! k 11 A. IT WOULD. 1? g. ALL RIGHT. WHO ALL THE CUSTOMERS ADD WHO wi 13 I HI CUSTOM! k, OF TURNER ASBESTOS FIBRES? 14 A. THEY WERE MANUFACTURING COMPANIIS WHO USID 15 AU1I SD'S I li-!R IN T f It COURSE Uf TllEIR MANUFAC TUR INC, PRIM.;'. 16 THE MANUTAC TURING COMPANIES that USED ASBEST 17 WERE I HEY OWN! D IN WHOLE OR IN PART BY TURNER AND 18 LIM11LD? 19 A . OH, NOT NLCI'.SSARI'1 Y . 20 y. WERE SOME? 21 A. SOME WLRE. 22 Q. AND SOME WLRE NO T 5 23 A . AND SOME WERE NOT 24 ALL R1 GOT . 1 BLLILVE YOU TESTIFIED THAT A; 25 N 1 1 Ml TURNER and NLWALL L 1M1 T LD OWNED 1 H L S H A R i S
G
1:
i AUI' MAI T 1 SO!( ; 1 I MAI L l) R R I C 1 ?
2 A . YES.
3
AND M
t AND MAM ISON WAS UK ATLli I r. /
4 M '. J . i I v'AM I ' . IS 1 m.\ I ( OPPL C 7 ?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. DO Y C-U i.Ima, K) HjJK OWN KNOWMDNf, '.."i If''
7 ,! NOT KLASBEY AND MAM ISON WAS FOUNDED AS AN AMERICAN COM1'i
8 A . YES, II WAS .
9 Q- HAS 1 T always had its principal plati OF i
'0 : 1 : ri , 1 ! NNS Yl VAN 1 A ?
1 1 A . TO 1ML ill S 1 OF MT . f (O to L E D (. F , Yl S .
1? Q CAN You 1 t L 1. the COURT and jurt when ; U R N E
13 w*M 1 L MM i i D F I R s 1 ACOUIRLD ANY INTEREST, OWNERSh 1 p
1 4 ( I N f EASIW r Afj|, M A I T | SON?
19 A . THAI W".ji ii til ABOUT 1 9 3 N .
16 :! ,'1I
Q.
AIL RK..H1 .
AT TmE T I ME THAT TURNER AND r.;
1 7 ! Aii/jlKi[> AN OWNERSHIP INTEREST IN KLASBEY AND MAT T I Son ABr I ji
18
\\ ,i
|'|}'.(
ulD M.ASBEY AND MATTISON OWN THE BELL MINES?
19
!| 20 I
A. IT DI0.
o.
all RIGHT.
AND (AN YOU TELL THE COURT AND u1' R Y
Will I HL R OR NOT, AFTLR TURNER C NEWALL ACQUIRED OWNERSHIP oi 21
! THE BELL Mil.IS, IT WAS S E PAR A T E D OUT AND APART FROM EE AS I I 22
: AND MAT T | Sol. ` 23
I
24 M j:
A. YES.
YES, IT WAS.
Q. L AN YOU TIL1 THE LOURT AND JURY V.'Ht t HI k OK N i 25
y w
7
1 I I ''.( I ( At ,|i '`.ATT I SON WAS EVER A PART OK THE HOME GP > ''
p ; r.Af.l!'. TM.'T YOU L A P L I I v DESCRIBED?
3 . OH, i:n, NT vr P . J o. CAN YO" Till. the COUPI AND JURY WHETHER O-
c, iiit mini:, i 1 r quebll were ever a part oh the home op cue i
6 YOU ' VL LAP! I f P. DESCR I BED?
i I 7 jl A. NO, ThLY WEREN'T
EITHER.
'| e Q . CAN YOU TEEL THE COURT AND JURY WHf. Th[P OP
g till 'Jl I C L R OF KEASL'EY AND MA T T I SON, PRESIDENTS, V I (
10 I'R l Sit ENTS , MANAGERS, WERE AMERICANS OR CR1TISH?
1 11
A . THE Y WERE AMER 1 CANS .
1? .
O . CAN you IDENTIFY kor the JURY WHO SOM; OF 1 !
1 3 i i i ^ 1 Ni NT S V.:>-C, SIR, TO YOUR MlMwRY?
lJ
1\ .
WLLl , o;jR FIRST ONE WHEN 1 J 0 1 !.: D V. A .
M `
15 , i
16 i
L PI LSI
M'Jl 01 L L K . Q. MUEHLt (0.?
ALL
R 1 i.HT .
1 1
18
A . AND 1 THINK AFTER HIM, MR . R. R. PORTi P M . HOW ABOUT A MR. HARoE? DO YOU RE COUNI 2 E in-.;
name ' 19
20 11 21
A . BARGE ? Q- B-A-R-G-E. WAS HE A VICE PRES I DENT ?
i 22
A . HE WAS A VICE PRESIDENT. 1 DON'T THINK WE W A
EVER PRESIDENT, UNLESS MY MEMORY TREATS ME FALSE. 23
24 .
Q WERE ANY OFFICERS OF TURNER AND NEWALl L 1 M 1 T i
i , UR T URNt R AbLLSTOS UBRES EVER OFFICERS OF KEASBEY AND MA1T 2b
8
1 NO, TMfY Wiki MO I.
2 M WC R F I ML F L - - S T R 1 i I MA [ . 3 BASH' ''M TOUR CUSToDt OF T ML Rt (.Ur.['S 1 ,1 I:'-'. -
4 /.;. i f.l <f. At l 'AN YOU ICLt 1 HL l'hJPT AMU JURY WHETHER OR t. 1
b
r j * OF HI R "1.0 r J E W A l 1 f'lPSMM L /t P S A I ON THE BOARD ,i ||l
i
6 * >L A SULY AMU MAT T 1SoM ?
7 'I
8 .i i
9
A . YES, THEY DID. Q- AMD MOW MAMY V/OULO TMAI HAVE BTEN? A , WELL - -
10 0- AT ANt ONL TIME?
1 1 A . AT AMY ONE TIME, ONE.
1? ! 13 N \ 14
Q. ONE TURNER AND NEWALL REPRESENT AT IVE . AH 7 1 'f 31 l ; OF T HI I'GAPI' OF DIRECTORS OF k FAS BEY A . D
A . WELL, IT VARIED UVLR TmC YEARS, DOT 1 : P ;
t Y I- L IIVC OR SIX OTHERS. lb
16 V OF T l it FIVE OR SIX OTHERS, WERE They -E: ;
17 1! 18
A . THEY WERE ALL AMERICANS, YES.
Q
CAN YOU TELL THE COURT AND JURY WHE*m R UL'
'
1 HI 1 oi- r.'L k AU> NEWALL REPRESENTATIVE ATTENDED EVER' 30AM; '9 .
Ml l T 1 mm OF M. AS BEY AND MATT ISON? 20
\ 21
A . NO, HE DID NOT.
22 Q. WOULD YOU TELL THE COURT AND JURY, BASED ON 'UUR
RL V 1 L V. OF TMC RECORDS, WHETHER OR NOT THE TURNER AND NEWAl 23
kL 1 KL-At.lA T 1VL ATTIMOLD LESS THAN 20 PERCENT OF A EE S U C ` ` 24
1 : HOARD ML L T 1 NOS? 2b
0
1 A. M
? > ' '; I i. H (. L n ; .
YES, I SHOULD 1HINK HE PROBABL Y AT It Nl'l I' ll IH'
3 Q- DIO M ASLLi' AND MATT ISON HAVE ANY (..! i 1 si
4 WHf. PI 1 N ' PiAT BRITAIN?
5 A . NO .
6 w- WAS II STRICTLY A UNITED STATES OPERA t ion:
7 |
8 1.
A. Q-
9 ACCOUNTS?
IT WAS INDLCD, YES. DID Y. C AS BE Y AND MAT T I SON MAINTAIN ITS Own
10 A . IT DID. 11 nH * ITS OWN PENSION PLAN? 12 A . YES , 13 Q- ITS OWN WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION PLAN 14 A . YES .
1'j Q ITS OWN BOi'KS A.NO RECCPOS OF ACCOUN*'
A . YES . 16
i; 11
0 DID KfASBLY AND MATT ISON HAVE ANY
18 LMi 'LoiLLS WHO WERE REGULARLY BASED IN ENGLAND?
1 c.
19 i \
20 j
J
21
A . NO, IT DIDN'T. Q- WHO PAID THE EMPLOYEES OF KEASBEY AND M-M : A . KEASBEY AND MA T T1 SON ITSELF.
22 i
\
23 M
Q. DID TURNER AMD NEKALL EVER PAY THESi EMPL'. A . NO, NEVER.
24 i
Q. HOW WAS THE CAPITAL EXPANSION OF KEAS 3 E v '
!; MA T T SON 1 1NANCED ? 25
10
THAI VJ'-S 1 II.ANCIl' I OM LUNDS GL NL K A i
Bi : ; : 1
2 /t.l I'M 1 r,u: 1 TSCl 1 .
3 U NO T P Y lu1- l.l K ANL' NL WALL ?
4 A . NOT DY TUK NLP AND NEWALL.
5 g . OKAY. TO your KNOWLEDGE, D1D TURNER AND Lift
6 LI PICT THL i UsTOMERS TO WHOM KEASBLY AND MATT 1 SON WOULD N 7 ITS PRODUL T S >
e A . NOT AT ALL
9 <} WERE THERE COMMUN1 CAT 1ONS BETWEEN KEAS3EY AN
10 MAI T 1 51 N AM
1t 11 1
A.
T URNL R AND NEWALL OR TURNER AS EE ST OS 1 1 t'R L s ? THERE WERE
12 g . AND BASED ON YOUR YEARS Wl TH THE CD'M'.'.y , ....
13 ft.'.-. Till NUkHAL manner or SUCH COMMUN1 CAT ION? 14 A . THEY WERE PR 1 MAP. 1 L Y BY AIR MAIL ll t t l- .
15 0 ALL R 1 r, H T . DID TURNER AND NEWALL PE R S-.' N N ' I . lfi ; 1 r, 1 ,) T | Mt . TRAVEL TO KLAS BE Y AND MAT T I sorj i n t<1 i un i :'
iM
17 1 . ; 5 .
18 1
yes, they DID.
ig j
g. CAN you TLLt. THL' COURT AND JURY WHET hi. R OP M '
I' JiCCASBLY AMD MATTISON HAD ANY DIRECTION FROM TURNER AND N[v.. I L 20 I
UN THL AMUUNI OF MONLY IT WOULD SPEND FOR RAW MATERIALS? 21
j 22
ii 23
A.
NO,
IT HADN'T AT ALL. IT HAD A FREE HAND,
g. AND WOULD THAT EXPENDITURE EACH YEAP HUMCM-
M I l. L I wf.S Ol HOLLARS ? 24
YES, IT WOULD. 25
1l
i'
? H '. I N T A IN 1 Hi
NOV.', It. 1 nr RFGULAR lOURSC OK BUSH'LL. , D'. BOOKS AND RLcORDS OF TURNER AND NEWALL.
3 /. . 1 DIP. 4 (i. AND TURNER ASBESTOS F1ERES?
b 1 A . YES .
/ 6
Q AND WFRL THOSE RECORDS KEPT AND MAINTAIN^. 4
7 r THE REGULAR COURSE OK THE BUS 1 NESS? l1i
8 j'|
A . THEY Wt RE .
9 Q ALL RIGHT. AND WERE YOU THE CUSTODIAN OF T
10 ' PUCKS AND Rt CORDS AT 1
1 1 A . 1 WAS.
THE TIME YOU RETIRED? 1 WAS THE custodian.
12 Q. FOR BUT H OF THOSE ENT 1T 1LS?
A . FOR BOTH OF THEM . 13
14 0- I'LL SHOW YOU WHAT'S HERETOFORE BEEN !`.AS. r ; ;
.J
S . TURNED AGO NL WALL E * r 1 B 1 T S ' 1* through" "
1b
Ifi n IVL A ;U ASK YOU IF YOU CAT. tell the COURT ANL li'jr , 16
t
WHAT THESE \RE ? 17
j1
1 18
MR . 'HOE make:
IK YOU'LL BEAR WITH ME ONE Mi '*'! NT ,
nor, i F , I'Ll 1SH THEM OUT OF THE FILES. 19
1 20
O. (BY MR. SMOEMAKE) I'LL SHOW YOU T ME ' L
M LXHIOUS Af.U ASK YOU TO TELL T HC COURT AND JURY V/ H f T H L F ?1
THESE are CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN KEASFCY AND MATT I SON A01
TURNER AND NEWALL OR ONE OF ITS SUBSIDIARIES? 23
A. YES, SIR, THESE ARE ALL COPIES OF CO^ES24
BtlWLlN TURNER BROTHERS ASEESTOS CQMPAN Y LIMITED AND KLASi 25
12
I 1 l joN .
?. i
3 rr i n, vf 1 Ml
AND AS T HC SECRETARY OK TURNER AND NEw-LL, DID ( AR[, CUSTODY AND CONTPOL OF SUCH DOCUMENTS. !
j A. YLS, I UIU, BECAUSE ONE COPY WAS SENT L 1T HE P I
b Ml (HAIPMAN and subsequently REACHED me, or to me direct.
c " I'M SURE TO HAVE COPIES OF ALL THESE.
j, 7 Q. NOW, I DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO THE FIRST L>h|
8 WHICH IS''I,"AND THAT PURPORTS TO BE - -
9 i|
10 !
MR. SHOEMAKE: MAY I APPROACH THE WITNCSS, YOUR HON 'R TML' COURT: YOU MAY.
i i MR. SHOEMAKE : NEVER MIND, I HAVE A COPY; T HANK YOU,
l? SIR. 13 14
T he uujr t : all right. y. (BY MR. SHOEMAKE) THAT PURPORTS TO BE A Ll
K ROM I L A S E L ' lb ,
ii,! I SIR? 16
AND MATTISON TO A MR. MORLlN'G;
IS THAT CORRi
17 !
i' is ;
A. YES, THAT'S CORRECT. Q. WHAT'S THE DATE ON THIS DOCUMENT?
io ,
A. JULY 12, 19SA.
Q. ALL RIGHT. 20
MR. SHOEMAKE: AND YOUR HONOR, 1 MOVE FOR THE ADM | . ?i
\t I a1 Inis 1 I Ml INTO EVIDENCE E X H I B I T S "f' T HROUG H "u" I N THEIR
iNTIHTY. 2J
1 HI WITNESS HAS IDENTIFIED THEM.
24 il
MR. N'JMRICH: SUBJECT TO THE OBJECTION WE MAL
';EARI. IIP, YOUR HONOR . 26
I
13
li
1 : M; ( 1 r T : tmi MINI! l. r 1 ON 1 s OVf PPUL ED . THEY w I L ! 7 II N1 i .
3 MR . ' ii 'L MAKE : T H AN1 YOU, YOUR HONOR. 4 o. (BY MR. SHOE MAKE) AND THE LETTER 1 S F ROM i !_
5 T 7 1 SUNi, IS THAT CORRECT, SIR?
6 A . YES . 7 Q. AND WHO I S- -1s That FROM MR. MUEHLECK AT K E '
e AND MAT T I SON !
9 A. THIS V.'AS f-ROM MR. MUEHlECK, YES.
10 Q. WAS HE THE PP.ES IDE NT ?
11 A. HE WAS THE PRESIDLNT.
12 <7. WOULD YOU PLEASE READ THE FIRST PARAGRAPH ;D
13 Thai LfTTCP TO THE JURY, PLEASE? 14 A. "THANK YOU I OR YOURS OF JULY 7 T H, FROM V.mD.n I
A ' ' /..( TO l.l ARN THAT TWIN ARTICLES ON THE WORK OF ;."CTi; i0
II.!- AND BEAITIE WILL DC APPEARING I N THE JULY ISSUE IF ' 16
'ARCHIVES OF INDUSTRIAL HEALTH AND OCCUPATIONAL MEDU.INL' D 17
THIS cOUI.TRY. 18
i
WE WILL BE HAPPY TO COMPLY WITH YOUR RLQLL'-T
: 11' I,
`; i 1 THE I MARGE OF--" I'M AIRAID I CAN'T READ TPl PH' 1
\ ;.f,,.,i11 - - "F OR TWO HUNDRED COPIES OF EACH ARTICLE AND .-ILL
20
j. PR U l A1, l t RL1AIN TWENTY-SIX COPILS. 21 I
"NO DOUBT, THE ASBESTOS TEXTILE INSTMUTE Wli 22
WISH TO PUR i HASE ADDITIONAL COPIES, AND THROUGH MR. WHEAT'-' ' R , 23
I AH AN.ISiN., THEM OF THE PUBLICATION OF THE ARTICLES. IN 2J
MEANTIME, THAI IS, UNTIL PUBLICATION, WE WILL RESTRICT CD' . i. A I 26
1 lit' API|'`iS TO 1 Ml INI! RESTED MEMBERS OK OUR OWI. UP A'. I .'![
? . UO YOU KNOW WHO THE OOl. TORS KNOx AND I'i.ATlIi
3 P I 1 f P P i I ' ill IN THAT l t 1 I 1 p ARL ?
4 A . YES, 1 DO .
5 Q . WHO ARL THEY, SIR?
6 A . WELL , DOCTOR KNOX WAS A DOCTOR AT ROCHDALE
7 ;i ENGLAND, WHnSL SERVICES WERE RETAINED BY THE COMPANY IN 'ML ii|
8 : FIELD Of AbBI.STOS AND HEALTH PRECAUTIONS OF ONE KIND OR 'i
9 'another. And DOCTOR BEATTIE WAS a UNIVERSITY DOCTOR WHO
10 : COLLABORATED WITH HIM IN THE WRITING OF THESE TWO ARTICLE!..
11 i
(v>. I'LL SHOW YOU, MR. JONES, WHAT HAVE PREVIOUS!
1? : BEEN MARKED FUR 1DEN I IF ICAT I 0N AS TURNER AND NEWALL TRIAL 1!
13 LXHIDITb T R I '' L E - D AND TR|I'lE-E AND ASK YOU TO LOOK AT T-OO
14 L XH I II I T b , SIR.
A . (THE W1 TNI. SS LOCKED AT THE EXHIBITS. )
15
16 Q- CAN YOU TELL US WHE THER OR NOT THOSE E X H I B 1
1 7 D A1 .1 triplf-l , W ERE KEPT AND MAINTAINED BY i 0 J IN
In! FiGULAP (UURSE 0 BUSINESS? lb
A. YES, IHI.Y WERE . 19
Q. AND IS DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT ODD AN ARTICLE l' 20
D'H. lukS Kill) >. AND BLAITIE? 21
A. YES. 2?
Q. AND THE SAME FOR DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1 R 1 F . i 23
A . YES, THAT'S RIGHT, 24
o. ALL RIGHT. 25
i 1S
1 * * F . `"/EMAKF : ioiik HONOR, 1 MOVE FOR 1HC AE`M SM1 '
2 INK' 1 V 1 01 In i DEFENF'ANI'S 1 X H 1 [' 1 T S ODD AND EFF. Tt'iY h ::N
3 Mi F' TOf OFT MARKED .
4 T ML' < HURT : THEY WILL B! RECEIVID.
5 MR. SHUCMAKE: THANK YOU. MAY I READ, YOUR HOMO-,
6 . THE FOOTNOTE IN TR I PIF -D?
7 THL (OORT: PROCEED.
8I
MR. -IIOEMAKI : "WL WISH TO EXPRESS OUR T HAN` To l
9 OIRLl.TORS 01 TURNER BROTHERS ASBESTOS COMPANY LIMITED Fo
SUPPORT IN 1 /.FRYING OUT THIS STUDY AND FOR A GRANT TO MLi ' 10
j.
11 . tut lxi lnsf
INVOLVED. WL ARE GRATEFUL TO THE PATHolOGi -1'
Vi IK, SOI PL 1 L i US WITH THE material from WHICH THE S' ' IL
12
it
and w i io THE PATHOLOGICAL REPORTS. DETAILS 1 ;
Jr
14 ot LMl'tOYMLM WERE OBTAINED PY THE COOPERATION OF 1"; i - ' ..
MANAGERS W H i M WE WISH TC' THANK FOR THEIR HELP.1' 16
Q. (BY MR. SHOEMAKE) CAM YOU TELL THE Co'jRT r. .1 UR 16
SIR, WMiTHlR OR NOT, WHEN REPRESENTATIVES OF TURNER AND f. L- 'LL 1 7 |l
i LIMITED, OR TURNER AsBESTUS FIBRES VISITED K L A S E L Y AND ma ' M NO 18 ll
l' !' IN THL UNITll> STATES, WHETHER RECORDS WERE KEPT OF THOSE 19 ij
VISITS, TRIP REPOR TS ? 20
A . YES, THEY WERE. 21
Q AND DO YOU HAVE --D1D YOU PEEP AND MAINTAIN T 1 1 22
: RECORDS OF SUCH TRIP REPORTS? 23 1-
24 l!
A . 1 DO .
;! 26
II
1 1
^ ALL RHiHT. I'LL SHOW YOU WHAT HAVE HLRETOl'Hi
1G i,
\ `.I, " A k LI'
TURNER
Nl WA| i_ TRIAL EXHIBITS R E S I' ' < ! I .
i > ! ,<> h-L. 'Ill) ASi Y'Vj II YOU lAN I ILL The COURT AM: J1
3 Wl.A 1 I HI' S L AW l , Pit A St V
4 THE FIRST or THE SE, 6-K, IS A COPY OF A P.E Pi 5 main BY DOCTOR J.F . KNOX TO KEASBCY AND MAT T I SON
b ` 1 1 '52. AND THI SCCOND ONE, li - L , 1 S A PERM / *
7 .)(- A VISIT f: r DOCTOR KNOX TO KE AS13E Y AND MATT I SON, A MUST i|
B ; THROUGH 5, 1 MOO . !j
9I
Q. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
10
' ,1
MR. S.hkEMAKI : TOUR HONOR, MAY I HAVE ABOUT I I YE MIN.
i
1 1 \Ti) (. i 1 ThLSL exhibits TOGETHER? !i
if NOT, I CAN PROCEED, l M
12 |i WOUl > BE MORE CONVENIENT.
!! THE COURT: LET'S SEE IF WE CAN PROCEED FOP. A FEW
13 Ni|
14 !' `T I NO ; I a .
I
15 MR . - H >E MAKE : 01 A Y , THANK YOU.
ll 16
Q. BY MR. 5N lEMAKtP ; 1 HAD HERETCFCRE SHEWN -0.
li
17
j, L XH 1 B 1 i "p.^ i . 11
WH 1 CH
IS A LETTER DATED JANUARY 29,
1959,
TO
;i
18 I. i urni>* PRO T Ml. R S FROM R . R. PORTER. AND 1 ASK YOU IF THAT LL
!' MAKE S R E f E RI N< E TO PR E C I P I T A T OR S , SIR? 19
20
II I
A.
21 ; TAT OR S.
YES, THAT'S RIGHT. IT REFERS TO THERMAL PRLlI- 1-
2? i;
Q
,! PRESIDENT 01 2J
NOW, That'S T ROM MR . PORTER, WHO WAS THEN Till 1 EASPEY AND MATT I SON?
2J YES.
AND TELL THE COURT-AND JURY, WHAT IS A THERMAL 25
I 17
I i'r ((. 11 ( r a tor -
2 A. WELL, A rti'UMAL PRECIPITATOR IS A DEVICE f (. < ] f.
3
h" I
in! .
4 ,i
5 ij
0. DUST Ci"JNT of ASBESTOS FIBFRSI N THE Alt? A. WELL, IK YOU TAKE A DUST COUNT, YOU Gt T At.:
6 I I HI PS Till R i ARE AROUND, AMD 1 HLN YOU HAVC TO SORT OUT W> .
;
7 WHICH.
i! 8 o.
INCLUDING ASBESTOS K I BE R S ?
9; iii
10 1
A. u
11
i |
PPM
1 P 1 TAT OR
I NCLUD I I IN ASBESTOS . WOULD THE SAME CL TRUE K OR THE OTTWAY TmERM-'l
i? |
A . I'M SURE THAT'S RIGHT. I'M NOT Tamil iAP v. i ' '
i3
i ;
NAM>
!
14 ij
O 1 1 WA Y 0.
SELF, EOT THAT'S WHAT THERMAL PRECIPITATORS A-: .
I HER I TOluRE HAD YOU IDENTIFY EXHIBITS "S,'............ I
IS ' AATNiDt.) "U 1
WWHH1 lULii PURPORT TO BE C OR R E S POND E NC E - - L E T ME SHOW YOU FRESH
16 ONI S AND I1 '' ll l TAKE Them llAC K - - PURf'OR T TO BE CORRESPONDENCE iROf-j
17 ( MR . - - TO MR .
18 !
A. WHICH EXHIBIT number was THAT?
19 Q I'M SOPRY, I'M AT "S," "1," AND "U."
20 j1i, :|
21 ij
A. Q-
! AS "S," "T" 22
23 1,
j'UNL S ? 24
A.
2S
OH, YES. LET ME GIVE YOU THESE, SIR. THESE ARE ALSO 'R-n' JD "U . " DO YOU HAVE THEM? THEY AREN'T HERE, I DON'T THINK. ARE THESE T"!
YES .
18
I YF S .
2 . V/HAT WAS 3 ML () A T C OF EXHIBIT S?
3
TM I PD I 1 I'.F
Y , 1 9S9 .
. AMD IT'S API - R L s S 10 MR. PORTER?
IT IS AppRTSSLl' Tit MR. PORTER.
6 (j. AND WHAT IS THE SUBJECT UNDERLINED AT THE r
7 OF THAT LLT Tt R ?
8 A. WELL, I REGRET TO SAY THERE ISN'T A SURJECT
9 UNO: Rl I NLD-- I MEAN 014 THE LETTER ITSELF?
10 Q. YES.
11 A. ASBESTUSIS.
12 0. HOW ABOUT FOR EXHIBIT "T" ? |S THAT A LETTER
13 MR . P , R I l R ?
14 THAT 'b TO MR . POR TER, YES.
WHAT'S THE DATE 014 THAT LETTER? IS
16 ;
THAT'S TE44T H FEBRUARY 19 5 9.
)' 17 i
111' is ; OF
Q- AND WHAT'S THE 'SUBJECT UNDERLINED THAT LETTl. R ?
IN THE CL
19 !1 1
20 1 1 1
21
A . THAT, AGAIN, IS ASBESTOS 1 S. Q. AND HOW ACCUT EXHIBIT'Tj"? A . YES .
22 I
1 23
o. WHAT IS THAT--WHAT'S THE SUBJECT OF THAT LE A . THAT, AGAIN, 1S--THAT'S ADDRESS EY MR. PORT
SL f, K L i AS ^ T t 1 MR. WADDELL. 24
Q WHAT ' S THE DATE ? 2S
19
) , A. IT'S DATED TCBRuARY 1 8, 1 95 9.
2 . WHA 1 ' TDL GUBULCT?
3 At, A IN, TIU SUBJECT 15 ASBESTOSIs.
W
g.
ALL PIGhT. NOW, CAN YOU TELL T.or
: < -> T
5 Will IHI.K OP NUT YOU, IN THE NORMAL AND REGULAR COUP 5L "
!i 6
I BUSINESS, RECEIVED COPIES OF A REGULAR BASIS OF THE MINJI:.-
7 ' OF THE BOARD MEETINGS OF KEASBEY AND MATT I SON ?
8 II
A. YES, 1 DID.
ii
9 i
g. AND DID YUU MAINTAIN THOSE RECORDS IN ThL
,(1l
10
I; ORDINARY COURSE OF BUSINESS?
ii
11 !i
A. YES, I DID.
12 Q. ALL RIGHT, SIR. AND DID YOU RETAIN CUSTOC'
13 uF THOSE RECORDS DURING THE TIME THAT YOU WERE THE S E C P E i
14 i1 uF TURNER AND NEWALL LIMITED?
Y
15
ii
A. YES.
16 MR. SHOEMAKE : YOUR HONOR, THIS IS GOING TO TAKE
17 j LITTLE WHILE TO GET THESE RECORDS TOGETHER IS THE REASON
18 '| 1 SUGGESTED--
19
i' Ii
THE COURT: WE WILL TAKE A TEN-MINUTE RECESS DURINt.
i.
20
;i i
WHICH
COUNSEL - - AN Y
COUNSEL
WHO
HAVE
EXHIBITS
THAT
THEY
WI'.H
i
i 21 ! TO PRESENT WILL HAVE THEM READY SO WHEN WE GET TO THEM,
I 22 ! WE WON'T HAVE TO WAIT.
`i i'
?J WE'LL BE IN RECESS.
24 (RECESS.)
25
20
1 DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONTINUED)
2 H > 'i- . SI" I
(. :
3
<j .
MR. JONES. SIR, I et-LlEVE YOUTESTIFIED
THA!
a . AMUHI- 1 Hi u>" 'JMENTS THAI tUU KEPT IN THE REGULAR COURSE OF .!
5 BU SINE S S AS SECRETARY OT ROTH TURNER AND NEWALL AND TURNER !|
6 As DESK'S lltlRI WERE THE MINUTES OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS
1 !i MEET INNS
i!
8 A.
KLASBEY AND MATTJSON; IS THAT CORRECT? YfS, T HA T ' S RIGHT.
g I' .1
m FOR
Q. I SHOW YUN, SIR, WHAT H A S BEEF,' MARKEDPREVIOUS ILUNTIFILATION AS TURNER A ND NEWALL TRIAL EXHIBITS "Z
11 OOUliL I -a. DOUBLE -c. DOUBLE-C, DOUBLE-D, DOUBLE -E , DOUBLE-A j,
DOUHL L -H, DOUBLE - 1 , DOUBLE -J, DOUBLE -K, DOUBLE -L, DOUBLE
i n : DOUBl L -r., poollE-0, DOUBLE -P, DOUBLE -Q, DOUBLE -R, DOUBLE
1 4 ('no Hi 1 I , PHI L C -U , D< 'O 1.1 E - V , DOU OLE -W, DOUBLE - X, D 0 U " t : -
AND I- It'Ll -A, AND ASt YOU TO EXAMINE THESE EXHIBITS AND I 15
US WHi THE.P OF: not THOSE ARE EXCERPTS OF THE MINUTES OF TH; 16 1,I
BOARD OF PIPIETORS MEETINGS OF t.EASBEY AND MATT I SON THAT 17
18 Y >U I ii f A I f. ' A I N ?
19 T Hi ( uUR T : MR . HOMAN ?
mr. human:
i'u oust like to SEE what he's hanplo
20
TO THE WIINISS WHEN T ML WITNESS IS FINISHED WITH THEM. |7 A 21
TO 1,0 BLYONU WHAT WC'VE JUST DISCUSSED. 2?
1 HI i HURT: MR. SHOEM.AKE, WERE COPIES OF THESE EXHIi-1 2J
f-Ukt,l>nLU Tu all the PARTIES? 24
MR. SHOEMARE: iES, YOUR HONOR. 25
Tttl i.OURT: IN I HE PRETRIAL MATfRIAL?
21
` 'l I- | r.\> [ : > f ' , 1o J- HONOR 1
; Till < i*hi: i : all R 1 f.IlT . 2i
T HI W 1 INI S' : y [ S. THl.SI ARE f X 1 RAC 1 S F ROM M|NUT
3i
;i Mt E T INNS Nl i i Asri Y AND MAT T 1 SON KEPT 1 f. MY CUSTODY . 4
i1! T HI njR i : MR . EOWMAN, do you CARE TO SEE THOSE?
5 !!1!, 1
6
MR . P MAN: YES, SIR. T HANK. YOU .
j MR . SHOCMAKE: may 1 > E SEATED WHILE HE'S LOOK J NG
7 THL COURT: (NODDED IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.)
i 1 (PAUSE . )
1 10
i1 11 jl
11
1
THL (.ouRT : MR . GOMAN, ARE WE READY TO PROCEED? MR . boMAN: MA Y 1 BE HEARD ON THE SIDE? THf < HURT : YOU MA Y .
(A iI S C U S S I 1 * N WAS HELD Ofr
13 THL rlcord at TML BENCH.)
14 1 Mt. lUURT : MR. SH1 i[MAT,E , YOU MAY PROCEED.
15 r.R . muLM.Ai ( : THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
11) V. (BY MR. SHOlMAKL) DID I UNDE R S1 AND YOUR A\CWL:
17 T<. b( . |P, I HE SC A ^ C EXTRACTS f'ROM THE MINUTES OF 1 [ A S i >
18 AND MAT I ISON BOARD OL DIRi CTORS MEETINGS THAT
10 !i |! MAI N T A I ML D IN THE REGULAR COURSE OF BUSINESS?
YOU'VE
KEE1
AND
20 ! i
A . YES, THAT 'S RIGHT.
21 1
o. AND WHAT PERIOD OF TIME IS COVERED BY EXHIBITS
i| 22
*:"Z" THROUGH TRIPLL-A, GENERALLY?
i'i 23 i'
A . WELL, GENERALLY SPEAKING, FROM ABOUT 1 9 3 ^ , WHCf.'
24 I THE SHARLS IN THL COMPANT WERE I IK S T ACQUIRED, UNTIL
2S 'AROUND '02.
22
1' I1
2 I
3
4j
Q. WM[fl TURNIP AMD ML'WALL SOLD REASBEY AMD MA III;,':. A . II s.
a: i. p ir.HT, 'if-. I WOULD DIRECT your ATTENTION, MR. JONES--STRP1
5 THAI .
ii
6
J 'i
MR. '..nulMAK.f:
TOUR HOMOP, I WOULD MOVE FOR THE ADM I SSI :
! IMTU I. V I DC ML L OF EXH I B I T S "Z1' THROUGH TRIPLE-A THAT 7
I
J HI K! N't OKI KLAD AMD SHOWN THL WITNESS. 8
I'VE
|j TUI COURT; ALL RIGHT. OBJECTION? MR. MORRIS.
9
J 10 ]!
MR. MuRRIS: I OBJECT ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANT ASBESTOS
1 1 |j CORI'OR AT I or. LIMITED, your HONOR, TO EXHIBITS EE, HH, KF., LL,
'| `I AMD MM. 12 i
Till eASIS OF MY OBJECTION, IF I CAM, IS THAT THEY AM
HEARSAY; THAT Mj PROPER FOUNDATION HAS BEEN OR WILL BE LAID 13
h
'|FUR THEM; Ar.D THAT THEY ARE HEARSAY WITHIN HEARSAY; AMD That 1 |
14 *i is mo proplrly qualified custodian and not the best--well, wi:i 15 i,
j! THOSE --THOSi ART MOT THE ORIGINALS. 16 ji
1 i;
THE COURT: ARE THERE OTHER OBJECTIONS?
MR. WILSON: YOUR HONOR, JOHNS-MANV 1 L L E WOULD ADOPT 18
j: 1 HA 1 OLiJLC I ION ALSO AND Al SO THAT THESE ARE COPIES AND MOT 19 I;
![ THE BIST l V I OF MCE IN THIS CASE. THEY ARE NOT THE ORIGINALS
20 I i|
,| OF THI DOCUMENTS, WHICH ARE AVAILABLE.
21 I
,1 22 i
MR. M..PRIS: JOIN IN THAT ONE ALSO, YOUR HONOR.
23 i
THI i HURT: THANf YOU. THEN 1 TARE IT THAT THI IXHP I
i EXv.EI'1 FOP I Hi FIVE WHICH wE'VE DISCUSSED A FEW TIMES HERE-24
II DOUBLL-L, DUUBLL-H, DOUULl-K, DUUB.LE-L, DOU B L E-M - - T Hf Y ARE
25
i 23
! <:(' <(' (1.0 In. the OThI PS APE RECEIVED WITHOUT OBJECT 101..
2 ir.ii- 'Hun .; i <'?,, those will p.e p.eceivld.
3'
Of. Mill' MAP E : T HAM you, youp HONOR .
4 Q . (BY MR.SHOE MAKE ) I WOULD DIRECT YOUP ATTENTION
b :j SIP, II
e
TO ExhIEIT CC. DO You HAVE THAT EXHIBIT, SIR? A. I HAVE.
j Q . I D1RLCT YOUR A T T L N T 1 ON TO THE BOTTOM OF Thi.
8 WHICH IS TITlED "OC CUHA I I OfJAL DISEASE." DO YOU SEE THAT, SIR?
g I
;
A. I DO.
Q.
AND WOULD YOU READ THATPARAGRAPH, PLEASE,
TO ' <
j JURY ? 11
! 1?
a. "this report was thoroughly discussed by tm
l)i. Ap; AM ?-,o. MUEHLECK STATED THAT HE FELT THAT THE RE?0>' 13 if
1)1 1 M i )4A>S MADE: Of- OUR EMPI.C1 f L C 5 WAS A COMPLEMENT TO *14
MANAui MLI.T ' S EFFORTS IN CONNECTION WITH DUST REGULATION M 15
i
; OUR IMAMS. HE RECOMMENDED THAT EVERYTHING POSSIBLE BE L 16
I Lj I'MMAli; THE HIGH STANDARDS ESTABLISHED BY THE CompaNt." 17
!j 18
<; . ALL RK.HT, T HANK TOO .
I WOULD DIP.LCT YOUR ATTENTION TO EXMlIII H-'. 19
MR. JUNES, to THE second page, sir, AND ask YOU IF THE SrO N. 20
PAGE l;OL S I.OT REFER TO EXPENDITURES APPROVED TO ELIMINATE l" T 21
AT THE DRY l R AP BINS AT THE SA I N'T LOUIS PLANT? 22
23 I
24
A. YES, IT DOES. Q. THANK YOU, SIR.
I WOULD NEXT DIRLLT YQUR ATTENTION, MR. JONLS, 25
i
24
1 I ! : Mill I 1 - I 'IK NE P AM; M>Al L > M I V I T L L . DO YOU HA'. |. In/
2 Mil , s IK ? 3 A. 4 0.
1 HA V1 . AT T HI P,ul TOM or THE FIRST PAGE IS TITLED
s RE GUI AT 1ONb, OCCUPATIONAL diseasl." would you read THAT
6 SINUNLL, SIK, THAI (ONSTMUTES THAT PARAGRAPH?
7 A. "IT WAS STATED THAT THE POLICY OF HAVING AH r.
B employees x-rayed beioke beginning work has been carried
9 SINCE DECEMI'IP 1, 19^f>."
Q. ALL RIGHT. AND THE LAST PAGE, SIR, OF THA T 10
11 EXHIBIT, PALI NUMBER 10--NOT THE CHART; PAGE NUMBER 10--1'!'Ii
THAT MAI E PI rlRENCE, SIP, TO--UNDER MISCELLANEOUS, TO 1?
1 'Pi NO 1 I UP 1 S AT ALL PLANTS at AMBLER AND SAINT LOclQ, F ; 13 14 PURPOSE 01 1 AK 1 NG DUST COUNTS 1 N CONFORMITY WITH T Mi STAN
(.DDL AND T ML ASEESTOS TEXTILE 1 ,N S T 1 T U T E ? 15
YES, IT DOES. 16
o . thank you, SIR.' and these, again, afl '-in 17
> i; t i .Ely a.Nil MATH SON; IS THAT CORRECT? 18
/ ' . THAT'S LORRH T. 19
! 20 1
Q' NOW, SIR, WITH REGARD TO EXHIBITS DOUBLE-E, D'.-'BL
j! II, DOUBLE-K , DOUBLE-l AND DOUBLE-M--
21 i
;! 22 ii
' 2J I
A. 1 VE GOT DOUBLE -L . Q- DOUDLL-E.
A , DOUBLE-M. 24
i 25
AND DOUtJLL-H.
2b
Ii
\ DOUBLl - H . Yi S, I'VE GOT DOUBIE-E, DO'JPlI-m.
? I . DO [hi " I MM.'JH 5, SIP, PONT A I N AT T AC Hi I - 1 '[ * ' I '
3 PI Copus 5mm i i;G THE INvLNTOPY or ASBESTOS AT VARI0US--A7 tc
4 KEASBLY AND MATTISON I AC I L I T ( E S IN THE UNITED STATES AT i
5 THUS!--AT WHATEVER TIME THEY PURPORT TO REPRESENT? I
6 A. YES, THEY DO. SAVE ANY--I HAVE THREE OF TH; o ,
7 , DOUBLL-L, DOUBLE-H, DOUBLE-M. THERE WAS A FOURTH; WASN'T
8 [THERE ? THESE THREE DO.
g'
Q . DOUBLE -E, DOUBLE-H, DOUBLE-*--
10 '
A. AND DOUBLE - * . YES, I HAVE DOUELE-K AND DO'.'it -
,, ! HAS THI SAMI
i, i:
,2 11
Q.
STATEMENT ON THE BACK . DO THOAC INVENTORY SHEETS THAT ARE ATTACH'D I
13 innsr i 1 V. 1 'DIBITS - -DOUBLE -E , DOUBLE-H, DOUBLE-P, OOJP.:.
1J 1 '1 >' 'Ll l - m - -1 Rom REVIEW lU THOSE, ARE YOU ABLE TO TELl WH
IS t SUI -P L 1 L R or LACH--OF THE FIBER If, INVENTORY MAY CE?
i 16 i
11
Mk . MUR R1S : I'M DOING U) OBJECT, YOUR HONOR, TO
US I Of 1 HI SPECIFIC poptions of these exhibits for the W
1
18 L A
AMI Pi ASONS that 1 PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED TO 1 :
19 I'Ll .1 KAl L*H1 BlT .
i 20 1
THE court :
THE OBJECTION WILL BE OVERRULED.
21 i
MR . NUMR1CH: JOHNS-MANV1LLE JOINS IN THAT OBJECT I
T HI court; MR. NUMRICH, OVERRULED. 22
; 23
1 HI w l TNESS: YES, 1 CAN GENERALLY, BUT IN NOT AH
24
ii CA SLb. j!
25 ;l
MR . MIUEMAKE :
ALL RIGHT.
2f) I;
I THl wiUiCSS: TolPE ARE SOME THAT ARE REFERRED lu Ml
'.s immiais v. i i h WHirn i am mot familiar.
.1 MAfiV ILL! >
THY MR. s o11 f. M A k E T ARE YOU FAMll.lAP WITH Jo-<!
5 ij A . Ll P TA I TIL i .
6'
7 i!
I
8 :l
9i li io !'
0 ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH BLLL? A. YE S . Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH ASBESTOS COPP.? . A . YES. Q. AMD V.' HAT ARf THE--WHAT IS THE 1 D E NT I F I C A T I C'.
11 il johi.s-mamv i l ll im those imvemtory DE S I GMAT 1 OHS?
ir A . JMN-b-R; JMD-I'-O. There IS ONE, I ThIn*', v.
IS 13 U
TOO, IJT IT CO'JLD BE JMO. I ThlMk IT'S jmd-u-v. 0. AND HOW A|i'uT THE DLSIGMAT10M VI I T II PEA A - 0 T
A S B L SI OS corporation? IS
A. THAT cam he IDENTIFIED BY THE FACT THAT AFTiF IG
1 Ml l ILL! DlS RIPTIOM IS T ME - - AR E THE LETTERS "C-O-R-: 17
i 1 ~ ` . , r i j h! S i it 'P T . IB
I| 19 1
O. IS THAT, AS YOU UNDERSTAND IT, THE DCSlONATh
!FOR ASBESTOS CORP.?
20 |i
A. YES. YIS, THAT INDICATES THAT THE FIBER REM 21
TO IS 1 Ml IPS. 22 j'
Q. AMD IS THERE A DESIGNATION FOR EELL MIMES? 23
A. YES. If. EALH CASl , AFTER THE TYPE DESIGMATIt 24
iAPPLARS THE WORD "BELL'S 25
27
1 IS IT YOUK UNO l R S I AMO I No I HAT THAT R E L A I L S i
2 i . i ! ' ' : ' ' .
3 ( E S , IT I 6 .
J
A'
0. DOES THAT --DO THOSE SHLLIS THAT ARE A T T At HI I 1
5 j THUS! M Vi ( x M | f I T S , SIR, I OR T HI T I HE SPECIFIED 10 THOSi |l
6
j SHEETS, i
SHOW THE
INVENTORY AT
THE
SAINT
LOUIS KEASCEY-
I
i7 i MA T T I SUN RL AN r ?
8 | A. YES, THEY DO. I
9 1.1. AND WOULD they show FOR THAT SPECIFIC TIME THE .1 j AMOUNT Ol ME.ER ON HAND IN INVENTORY FROM THE - -FROM THE
10
11 PAR T I i.UL AR SDPPL I E R S ?
YES. THAT'S RIGHT. 12
13 U JOHNS-NAf.21 LLE . WOULD THAT RE COPPECT?
1 J YES .
lb 0 ASBESTOS LOP.'1. w; ULD THAT RE CORRECT' YES .
16 17 Q- BELL MINES. WOULD THAT BC CORRECT?
A . YES . 18
ALL RIGHT. 19
AND DO I UNDERSTAND, SIR, WHETHER OR NOT IT: !20
, oi you, Thai i T WAS A REGULAR P ART OF THE M1NUTCS TO HAVi 21
SUCH ATTACHMENTS OF INVENTORY TO THE KEAS BEY-MATT IbON -22
MR. ROMAN: I OBJECT TO THAT. IT'S LEADING AND 23
S ro.LS I IV! . 2'1
MR. HNEMAKI : I'Ll. RLPHRASL IT. 26
23
1 1 ML ( dim T ; Till. iJ'JLSl ION IS Wl TMDRAWN.
2 . r B Y MR. MKILMAKL) CAN YOU TELL THE CO<Jv ' A'
3 JOf I.
, W Mi 1HCR OR fJM] l me SUMMARY or INVENTORY' THAI V i
4 !; I DENIM Ifn (III THOSE HIVE EXHIBITS, WHETHER OR NOT THOSE ii
5 'SUMMARIES VI l R I ATTACHED TU THE MINUlLS THAT YOU REGULARLY
li
), RECEIVE FROM 1 E A S 0 C Y ANO MATT I SUN? C
7 A . YES, THEY WERE.
8 MR . SHOCMAKE : JUST ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR.
9 (PAUSE . )
MR . bHOEMAKE : T HANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. 10
THE COOP, T : Al t R I GMT . 11
LRQSS-EXAMI NAT |ON 12
I! Y MR . motley: 13
Q. MR. JUNES, MY NAME' IS RON MOTLEY. I, ALONG V. I I 1 14
MR. . MULLVLRSmn, REPRESENT THL PLAINTIFFS who ARE SEATED - 15
SOML OF THEM ARE IN THE BACK OF THE ROOM. 16
FROM YOUR REVIEW OF THE RECORDS WHICH YOU HA.L 17
INDICATED, COULD YOU TELL THE JURY WHO THE PRINCIPAL SL'PFLIf- 18
i OF ASBESTOS I IBER WERE TO THE SAINT LOUIS SHINGLE PLANT 01 19
KEASCEY AND MATTISON FROM THE YEARS 1939 TO 1957? 20
MR. MdR.RIS: OBJECT, YOUR HONOR.
21
MR. Roman: I make the same OBJECTION, I ASSUME. 22
I! 23 I
MR. MORRIS: THIS GOES TO ThE VERY SUBJECT WE'RE TAo
i' A LOU I . 24
THI (.ooRT: ALL RIGHT . OBJECTION OVERRULED. 25
N
29
1 I
Ml-'. MORRIS: CAM WL MAKE A RECORD?
2 l*i! 'oilRT: I TuilJi.ilT WL DID. WC CAN MAKE ADO T HE T <N! .
3 : COMT A R (> u N D , PAT.
<3 (A BENCH i ONI ERfNCt WA1 HLl.O AS FOLLOWS:) S
5 I MP . MORRIS: IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THE QUEST ION JUS 1
ji
6 II,, ASKED of i'i
This WITNESS WAS :
"WHO WAS THE PRINCIPAL SUPPLII^
7 jj OP As DC S T OS>' DUR I NG A C L R T A J 7; PERIOD OF YEARS.
AND I c E L I !
e 1> THE QUl S I I ON ASKED HIM WHETHCR OK NOT HIS KNOWLEDGE WAS BAH
|
9 I ON REVIEW OF CERTAIN R|. COPDS . l|
10 WE HAVE NOT BEEN SHOWN--WE, ASBESTOS CORPORA: |
ii 11 LIMIT! D, HAVI NOT BEEN SHOWN ANY OF THOSE RECORDS EXCEPT
ij
!| FOR THE FI VI ;XHIBITS V.E'VE HAP ON THE PE CORD AND TALKED 1?
'i
'j .)! 'HI TEN. JI > SF I AP . * E HAVE NOT BEEN SHOWN ANY RECORD.
.
; 1
. K'.Oi.LIJiiE, > IU. IU):L 1 , C M; S F ' O " RELOADS `MAI MAY. A' ' 14
I'Uji JlEL IN C'uMPL 1 AN( L hi I H THE PRETRIAL ORDER. l'j
WHAT THLY'F.C ACCOMPLISHING IN THIS RESPECT I 10
Ih.a: -H(Y AIL GETTIM. IN EVIDENCE FROM EXHIBITS T HE i DID 17
' NOT riOUUCE . 18 r
'1
THEY ARE JUST TURNING AROUND AND SAYIM-, "1:1
"have Ymij pi AO THE RECORDS THAT WE DID NOT GIVE THESE rrCPLf.
1*1
AND 2U. r
ANY 21
i
2? i
(All YOU TELL US WHAT'S IN THOSE RECORDS." I DON'T fir Ol difference than ef.tting THEM put THEM IN.
T HI COURT: MR. BOHAN?
Si:
MR. HUMAN: I HAVE THE SAME OBJECTION, SIR. THIS I 2J
WHAl You RU! : U OUT ALLOWING SHOL'MAKE TO SHOW THAT THE MAI. 2J
, MAD A BUMMAki OF ALL UF THESE RLCORDS. 2b
30
1
1 Hi ' UR r :
it t h iu misb dual 16 i F. s as ah of i r
2 Ar II1 '-ICRLIAki |M 1 ML CUKI'UK A H Jll WIIH MANY YEARS 01 ExPt> 3 lM|R` AND It ME HAS PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE OF THESE, f AM S, "
4 II I I Ml Will Hi. CAN'T Tf.ST I I Y ?
5 MR. "ORIS: I por.'i T H I 1.1. THL QUESTION WAS AbOU
6 I'LRShNAl K.V m.EDGL . II WAS MIS VIEW OF THE RECORDS.
7 I HI. (.HURT: KE'VL HAU A L <J T OF DISCUSSION ABOUT THi
e
, 'i
BUSINESS
RECORD
ACT
AND HEARSAY.
AND GENTLEMEN, I
i
9 THINK WL All KNOW THAT HEARSAY ELIES PI GUT THROUGH THE
10 . BUSINESS ROODS ACT. I;
AND THE IDEA OF ORIGINAL FLIES R|(."'
11 bY, TOO. You CAN USE DUPLICATES UNLESS THERE'S A REASON ^ AsSIPT I ML tit- IGINALS ARE INACCURATE.
I?
13 I MAY LL WIULLY OVERLOOKING WHAT YOU ARE A'.
11 i:11 I I CANNt 1 bEE IT. I THINK THIS GENTLEMAN IS QUAclFlL', I li.STIFY AS M WHAT HL KNOWS FROM HIS PERSONAL KNOwi.lDGE
1b
AND II Hi IIPIVLS IT AS AN OFFICER OF THE CORPORATION F U'" 1G
j 1"! i 'j; lO I RECORDS 01 THAT CORPORATION OVER A PEFluD l/
I i a; i s . A- i l THINK IT'S LIKE ThE HEAD OF GCNCRAl M'.'T'O 16
| HR Aid T It | Nti L l SE . 19
MR. Mi.RRIS: HIS KNOWLEDGE, YOUR HONOR, WHAT HE'S T!
M;
20
I NG TO IS Vi MAT WAS IN THE RECORDS. THE BEST EVIDENCE IS W"-:' 21
IN 1HL RECORDS. 22
THE lOURT: BUT THE BEST EVIDENCE RULE STEPS ASI.Df 23
WHEN WL GET INTO ORDINAPY BUSINESS RECORDS, AND IT MAY S T L i AS1! 2<J
ON ANlILNI documents. 25
51
Ml-' . I'1 RR | S ' l.l'l l! DUES OOT S T c AS I DC FROM Mr
< i 11 nt s pm i f, r of v i r w. m y C l 11 nt says. " i was cn m t l r ' <
st i ini k i i. < FI'S Of j which rms mao--" wc HAVE to ?l i r on
HIS ' t R" > A I | | I 1 Y .
5 I HI (HURT: WAS I ML R L A REQUEST FOR DOCUMENTj D Uy I '
: IMIS T WO - 1 I G
i
C AS L ? WAS T HL R t AN ATTEMPT TO DEPOSE TH|c
7 I WI T NL S S WHO'S LISTED?
8 MR . MOTLEY: NO, YOUR HONUR. NtVLR.
9 T HE i.muRT : THAT'S YOUR ANSWLR.
10
MR . mmrris:
but there was, in compliance with T Ml
PRCTRIAI OPI L R ON WHICH WE RElIED, THERE WAS A LISTING Ml 11
Nil L y. 11 1 B M , . i?
rill COURT: HE'S NO T BEING ALLOWED TO MIFf'P Any 13
NOT SHOWN rou BUT I (ANNOT STOP HIM FROM T(ST|IYIfi(- v HA T 14 l
15 i HL I '
10
SNOW S IU R SONALL Y . MP , morris: i.LT
THE RLCoP.D SHOW THIS
IS heafsA'
'
! M'S Also AN ABUSE 01 DISCRETION RY THE COURT IN H-r.Rl 17
in' i R | I R I Ai X-OMPL I Al :c I . 18
! 19 ii
lj 20 '!
THE (OURT: PROCEED. (THC BENCH CONFERENCE CONCLUDED.)
' 21
MR. BOWMAN: MAY I ASP THAT THE QUESTION EE READ
TO IHI WITNESS, PLCASC? 22
?? , 24 11
the court: all right. MR. motley: WOULD you LIRE FOR ME TO REPEAT THE QCSTIO
25 i
THE COURT: NO.
}2
) Hi! -`I'ORTfP: "i M m r i u REVIEW UF Thi
.
2 i'll' MAVL lid'll ATED, i.UUl.D YOU TILL THE JURY WHO THE 11R II.
3 Vliilii'. i ! A 5 i E T ( . I I II R WI R ! To IMF SAINT LOUIS SHIN
d llA'Jl "I I l iiCY AIII M.\ I I I SOU FROM I HE YEARS 1 *1 3 9 TO 19 W
5 MR . M> I LC Y : Y t. S, SIR.
6 I ME I'HIRT: READY? you may ANSWER. 7 1 ME WITNESS: YCS. I THINK I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK
8
!i
9 !;
through all of these in order tit do that.
mr. motley:
i didn't hear what he
said.
,0 :
T Ml WITNESS; r HAVE TO LOOK RACK AT EACH OF 'ML1
1 I T MI I r.l oR.MA , | un IS UNUO'JLTEDLY THERE. CUT I HAVE T 1 ? I'
12
% 13
l 'i li L I N
0. I'F.L PAr.l I '
(BY MR. . MOTLEY) ALL R I C. H T , SIR. HA," AMBY YOU THAT WOULD REFRESH YOUR PECDLl:CT| '.
1 d 1 HA 1 h l ( A K
YES. lb
* *. .MAM: I OBJECT TO THAT, IF THE CO'.=>T . : AS 10
17
T MA1 ' S t
THE
.me point puled on previously.
18 s
MMRR.. MORRIS: SAME POINT, YOUR HONOR.
19 THE COURT: WMA1 HAS NOT BEEN FILED as EXHIBITS ('
lBitl LLNr; R L Lc E I1 VI i i IN EVIDENCE. 20
;| 1 21 mi
22
1 M 1 111 T H T ML
23 i
MR. .
took i r.i AT 24
, SUMMAK | LS . 2b
BUT YOU MAY REFRESH YOUR RECC
J3
I ! lit < < if iR T : I [At L It Mf IS GOING TO RfFPESM MIS l.
2 ( i hi l I i T I ( I. mio T Mf r i t L S M l Y FROM MIS RECOLLECTION.
3 MR . Ml I I L C Y : n. 5 , SIP.
4
nil s 1 IR T : M's M.'.P'Y TO SLE HIS R E C OL L L C T I Or. . I ;
5 : IIIIU
;l 6;
Wl 'Rf INTRODUCING THIS DOCUMENT. MK. MO I ley: NO, I'M NOT INTRODUCING
IT.
i| 7,
li
8 i; THIS I]
9 |j
THr COURT: DOCUMLN I .
MR. Morris:
SUSTAIN THE OBJECTION TO THE RECEIPT CM I'D LlKC TO--MAY I ASK A QUESTION BY
I
10 ,! *AY Of
11
11 l: 1 ROM? i ,!
12
VOIR DIRE, YOUR HONOR, TO SEE WHERE THIS DOCUMENT l 1 ML ii jR T : you MAY CROSS-EXAMINE ON THIS ISSUE, ;
1 13 : *'t- ' v l
ii 14 i.
i
VOIR HIRED Q u l n: a lit today. MR . Mi iR R 1 S : LET THE RECORD S MU W THAT THIS
IS CRN.
15 1 Ml A R S A Y , AND IT 1 S OUTS IDl THE PRETRIAL RECORD; THAT Mr (! 1
10 -* L ' '; i i OF O )RAT ION, oiAS Nf.VLR SCEN THESE RECORDS Nu R 0
17 . i t
i ms Summary , AND IT MAS NOT HAD A CHANCE TO Pl'!N[
18
; 11 i i
IMA 1
RL sn I.T .
19 Mi
1 HE l OURT :
al l RIGHT.
THE RECORD WILL SHOW WHAT 1
20 iRECORD SHOW.. .
MR. WILSON: YOUR HONOR, IF I MAY, I OBJECT TO THE 21
I UUI.UA1 ION . MR. MOTILY HASN'T LAID A PROPER FOUNDATION EM 22
HAVING THE WITNESS SAY WHO PREPARED IT, WHEN IT WAS P R E P A R 1 ' 23
M it ilFA. 24
THE i.MURT: I THINK HE'S TRYING TO GET HIS PAST RECOLLEC 25
3R
) y\ ' RE SHI D, |i I UNDERSTAND HIM, AMD I DON'T THINK--! HER;
2 R U I I ` l"H Am THESE < > T MI V (. AML S , DUT THAT'S MOT THl nfil
.1 1 ' A I I O' V I '11 : NOW .
4 OBJECTION OVERRULED. PROCEED.
5 THL rUTNESS: THIS IS A SUM.MARY OF THOSE INVENTORr i I . ' $
6 in WHICH WL REFERRED 10.
7 , MR . mi) T LE Y : YL S .
B THE WITNESS: AND IT COVERS THE YEARS 1 93 9 THROUGH l".' 7
9 IN'LUSIVL, A:;p IT SHOWS THAT THE THREE LARGEST--
10 MR. MORRIS: ONE MURE OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
11 I i'
12
T HI. COURT : Y I S . MR. M.iwRIS: I WOULD LIFE TO SEE WHETHER OR N'T !.
W I IN! v S I-' L : THAT S u v masY OR DID SOMEBODY ELSE? 13
In. V.IINLSS: I U DJMMA- t WAS MADE BY SOME I' E. 14
is i
16
. : r? I s : Alt R I GMT . MY OBJECT I or. still '-MV. Tin i ouRT : All f. Ilht ,
i
17 I
o- (BY MR. MOTLEY) FROM YOUR PERSONAL RECOLEE.:
SIR, FROM MHJR REVIFW 01 THE RECORDS, CAN YOU TELL US W-1 18
; PRINCIPAL SUPPLIERS ol ASRESTOS FIBER WERE TO THE SAINT 19
ji
S: LOUIS SHINUIL PLANT FROM 1 93 9 TO 1 95 7 ?
20 i
I A. THEY WLRC BELL, JOHNS-MANVILLE AND ASBESTOS
21 i
;; CORPORA! I ON .
22 I II
23 I
0. IF THL LAWYCR FOR--
j; 24
0
MR . b1 iMAN : JUST A MINUTE, PLEASE. I MOVE THAT T t '
T: sri`1(, NY I I EXCLUDE L AND THE J.UPY INSTRUCTED TO DISREGARD lT.
2E
35
I
:;!> was i:ui djm oi mis u.n > nuwi i dm an-
2 1 Ml 1- : v i ( W 'i I m>3 R L C11R i THAT ARE NOT ADMITTED.
3 : mi ; n;iR 1 : OBJ! L 1 1 ON ovl RRULI D .
4 MP. . Mr IP R | 5 ; 1 JOIN IN THE OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
5 T Mi < o JR T : OBJ! CT ION OVERRULED .
Q- ( BY MR. MOTLEY) M THE LAWYER FOR JOHNS-MANV 6 '!
1 7 1 TOLD THIS JURY IN HIS OPENING STATEMENT THAT THEY ONLY SUPP
ONE f' [RCENT nr THE ASBLSTOS FIBER, WOULD YOUR R E C OL LE C T 1 Of. 81 9 1 J 1 VL WITH THAT, SIR?
,0 I
MR . BOMAN: 1 OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION.
IT'S AR GUM L NT AT |VE
12
i
13 :
THE LwURT : YOU MAY-MR . Mi > 1 L i: Y : ALL R 1 GMT . I'LL REPHRASE 1 T .
, 14
T ML lour r : R lpmr.ase IT.
Q- ( BY MR. MOTLEY) FROM your recollection, WAS 15
AMOUNT THAT JOHNS- manville supplied more or less than one 16
PERU NT TO THAT SHINGLE PLANT ? 17 Il
A . MORE 18
19 1
Q IF TMC LAWYER TOR ASEESTOS CORPORATION LIMIT!
SAID THE Y DIDN'T SELL ANY FIBER TO THAT PLANT UNTIL THE 20
1970'S-21
TMl COURT: JUST A MOMENT. 22
?j I
MR . MOP. R 1 S ?
Mr . M 11R R | S
YL S. 1 WANT TO OBJECT TO ANY COMMtNT
2J
l( AtU'U 25
T Ml l AWfL R ' S OPENING STATEMENTS.
THIS WITNESS 15 N< 1
3*.
\ 1. ! lAi 1 i 1 f l; 10 00 THAT.
2 1 H! i i "PI: THAT OBJECTION WILL CL SUSTAINED. Do f
3 H A V l - 1 L 1 1 HI COURT StL' THE DOCUMENT WITH WHICH YOU'RE L> L L I r
At 1 H 1 S P( l r. t 4i
l 5 (A DOCUMENT WAS GIVEN TO HIS HONOR.)
T HI i i, OPT: THE COOPT BELIEVES THE OTHER PARTY SHOU 6
7 ; HA VI A 1. Ol H i k IUNITY TO HAVE THIS. WOULD YOU MAKE A COUPLE
I
( UP 1 l 8
O! Till S AND THEY MAY CROSS-EXAMINE FROM IT, ALSO.
9 . 0- (BY MR. MOTLEY) WERE SALES MADE BY ASBESTOS '1 CORPUS AT 1 1 1. L IMITED, from, your personal RECOLLECTION, SIP.
10
PR |i) P 11 1
1?
10 1 III A.
19 7 0 ' S TO THE SAINT LOUIS PLANT? YES, THEY WERE.
O' AND WERC - - MOV. WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE THEM: 13
M 1 N H- , SUI i ,* 1. I 1 AL , OR HUW ? \A
A . WELL, 1 W-ULD CHARACTERIZE THEM AS SUES 1 ANT i lb
ThL Ai. 1 U A i i l I.URES ARC <)N THIS PIECE OF PAPER. 16
0' NOW, YOU, SIR, WERE, 1 BELIEVE YOU SAID, 17
S: L-i : / I-' ( i 'i 1 ;RNER AND NI.WALL LIMITED; IS THAT COPRL-'' 18
r\ YES . 10
20 :
Q. AND 1 BELIEVE YOU DESCRIBED TURNER-NEWALL LI
AS A HOLD 1 til. 1OMPANY; IS THAT CORRECT? 21
A . YES . 22
Q- 1 XACTLY WHAT DID YOU HOLD? 2j
A . WE HELD Tiff SHARES 1 N, FIRST OF ALL, THE COM 1 Af
, WH 1 til 1 ORMLIi 1 HE HOLDlNO COMPANY, AND SECONDLY, OF THE COM ai 2S
37
I V.MI I! ORMO 1 HE OVCTSIAS lOMPAMIES.
2 >.< . YCS, SIM. Yi >u MILO SHAPES?
3 WE HE L n SHAPl S .
4 Q. ALL Rlf.lll , SIP. AND IP A PROFIT WAS MADE
5 WOULD GET Tn HOLD THF PROFIT?
6 WELL, THE COMPANIES, WHEREVER, WHETHER III i, i
7 i Ok OVERSEA;,.
i
B l Q.
!' FROM THEN? 9
WHERE DID TURNER-IIEWALL LIMITED GET ITS MONl i
10 A. IT GOT THE DIVIDEND.
1 1 Q . THE DIVIDEND?
12 A . YES. 13 i,i. so Thai ii thlrl was a profit and a divide1. 1 4 L: '. I f l ! , i ! I MA T E L Y I Ml PROFIT ENDED UP WITH T U P f. E f - 1. E v. '
>: .
1 l.i
I 16 ii
ii
17 iI 18
f,k . Ml ,'EMAHE ; I OBJECT AS TO THE FORM, YOUR MONO. The ChuR T : pardon me ? MR. SHOEMAKE : OBJECTION AS TO THE FORM OF THE QU;
i; IT",-19 ii
!!
j 20
THE COURT:
OBJECTION SUSTAINED.
Q. (BY MR. MOTLEY) MR. JONES, IF KEASBEY AND MA: : I S' 21
; MADL A PROFIT, WOULD THERE BE A DIVIDEND DECLARED? 22
| 23 i
I:
A. ONE WOULD NORMALLY EXPECT IT, BUT I DON'T ThlN-
|i IT Ml i E S S A R I i Y FOLLOWS. DEPENDS ON THE SIZE OF ThE PROFIT.
24 II
i1 26
g. YES. LET'S ASSUME THERE WAS ONE MAD C THAT WAS
i
38
I H II, I
M 1>> I N T E R L' S r YOU in i. ondon. who WOULD get 1 ` t! f-
2 THL I I', IlilOI 1 TUKNER-MWALL LIMITED?
3 ( . Turn* P-NL W.' l I WOULD GET THE DIVIDEND--
4 i. . all v i iiHi .
5 --ON TmL 'HAKES THAT IT OWMCP.
6 Q. AND IT OWNED WHAT PERCENT OF THE SHARES Of
7 KEA5CL r-MAT T I SON?
8 A. YES. EITHER DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY, A HUNDPI
9 PLRLINT.
10 IT WOULD END UP GETTING A HUNDRED PERCENT Or T
1 1 D I V ID! NO R I (HIT ?
12 A YES .
13 Q ALL RIGHT. NOW--
14 A BU T NOT Of THE PROFIT.
15 Q BUT NOT OF THE PROF | T ? A NO .
16
17 Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR, SIR --
MR. MOTLEY: MAY | APPROACH THE WITNESS, YOUR HONOR ? 18
THI ( OUR T : YES. 19
Q. (EY MR. MOTLEY) --WITH WHAT'S BEEN PREVIOUSLY 20
IDENTIFIED AS A BOOK CALLED "TURNER AND NEWALL, THE FIRST 21
FIFTY YEARS"? ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THAT? 22
A. DO I WHAT? I'M FAMILIAR WITH IT, YES. 23
Q. YES. INDEED, IT WAS PREPARED WHILE YOU WE?: 24
SLCKL I ARY Of THE CORPORATION; WAS IT NOT? 2b
59
1 ii:.
n was.
2 Now, MAY I HOLD IT, SIR, AND LET ME ASK YOU IT
3 ' YOU .s I ( I A' M WITH THIS: HAVl YOU TVER HEART) T UR ME R - r JE W A L L
REFLRRTL) To IIS POPULAR l>| S I G NA T 1UN AS THE ''ASBESTOS G I AN T " ;
A . I HAVE .
U- TOO HAVE?
A . YL S .
B l1
Q. IS TURNER-NLWALL THE ASBESTOS GIANT?
I.
i A . I SUPPOSE IT'S AMONG THE LARGEST COMPANIES.
10 WHETHER 11 WoOLP UL FAIR TO CALL IT THE ASBESTOS GIANT TODAI. I CAN'I SA t , REALLY.
11 :
(j . YOU DON'T AGREE IT'S THE ASBESTOS GIANT TODAY, 12
BUT |f. 1070. WHEN THIS WAS WRITTEN, IT WAS THE ASBESTOS G I A'. 13
1 ^ IS 1 I 'A I (.1 >R I- I o T ?
a.
it was so called
through the '60's.
lb
THROUGH THE '6 0 ' S . WHO WAS YOUR PRINCIPA_ 16
COMPETITOR.' JOHNS - MANV I L LE CORPORATION? 17
A . YES. 18
0. Du YOU KNOW WHElHER OR NOT JOHNS-MANVILLl 19
CORPORATION PI CAME THE ASBESTOS GIANT IN THE VO'S AND ovjp 20
COMPANY cami in second? or HOW would you describe it? 21
.22
A. I DON'T HONESTLY KNOW.
23 :
Q. NOW, MR. JONES, IN 1970, THIS DOCUMENT REFLECT
SALES IN 1 " 1 Oi ONC HUNDRED AND THIRTEEN MILLION POUNDS.
24 ;; i: i HUW MU' H WOULD THAT BE IN AMERICAN DOLLARS?
25 :
I 40
I ON A T WO - TO -UNE BASIS, ABOUND AOOUT TWICE iHAl .
17. TWO HU f JDK [ U AfJD tWENTY-SI* MILLION DOLLAR,?
A . YI A .
0 . THISDHtUMI NT , l'A',1 G 6 OFIT, SIR, LISTS--
Mf: . Mill lit: MAT I APPROACH THt WITNESS, YOUR HONOR? il 6 " THE (HURT: YOU MAY.
7 Q. (BY MR.MOTLEY) --THE VARIOUS COMPANIES WHICH
8 TURNER-NEWAl.L OWNED. DO YOU SEC THAT, SIP?
9 A . YES.
10 O- Hi * W MANY OT THOSE CUMPAN1ES WERE--ARE THE'-'i
,, . THAI vm KE t O'. AT ED IN THE UNITED KINGDOM?
12 A. ALL THESE ARE INTHE UNI TED KINGDOM. 13 ..1 . YfS, SIR.HOW MANY OE THEM ARE..' HOW MAr.Y 1 j a < 1 111 i- l 1 1 1 c r1 there?
15 A. TWELVE. 16 g . twelve . NOW, THE NEXT PAGC, IF YOU WOULD TUT'. 17 I T O v | R, P l I A s l , SIR, DOES THAT LIST THE COMPANIES OWNED BY
,0 TURNLP -NL'V.'Al L THROUGHOUT THE REST OF ThE WORLD?
19 A . YfS.
20 Q. AND HOW MANY OF THOSE ARETHERE?
21 22 H 23 24
A. FORTY-ONE. g. FORTY-ONE.
AND WHAT PARTS OF THE WORLD DO THEY EXIST IN? A. CANADA, INDIA, THEREPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA,
RHODESIA, ZAMBIA, NIGERIA, ITALY, -THE FEDERAL GERMAN RCPUPLIC, 25
41
t nil
A., f.LW ZLALAtJD, IHt RLI'UBLlC Uf IRELAND, AUSTRALIA,
(I ? Ml X I > , I r.-.r; , lill MUM, i'"l|AN(>, SPAIN, LUXEMBOURG.
3 Q. f.'MW, MR. UPfifS, TURNER AND HE WAl. L OWNED T H:
a ' IN A t.'UMDl R Hi MINES THAI PRODUCED ASBESTOS FROM THE EARTH;
5 i; DID IT NO 1 !| A.
6
Q
IT DID. AND THOSE MINES WERE LOCATED IN WHAT COUNTRIt
SIR?
8 !|
l 0
PRIMARILY KHOOESIA, ZIMBABWE, NOW SWAZILAND,
10 C At.AD-
'l 11
Q- CANADA. IN FACT, T U R NL R - NE WA L L OWNED A H'JM-
!. PERCENT 01 T HI 12 ;
i '1 R ( F' I I I ,T C , IS 13
STOCK OF BiLL THAT CORRECT?
ASEESTOS
MINES,
WHO
THIS
'.ENT
RIGHT. 14
ij . AND DID lU5NLy Af.O NEWALL OWN ANY M|NL> .. - I is
PRODU' LD 111 UL ASBESTOS FIBER? 16
A. NOT FOR MANY YEARS . 17
Q. AI ONE T I Ml THEY DIO? 18
A . AT ONf T I HE THEY DID. 19
Q. YOU MENTIONED THAT TURNER-NEWALL ONLY HAD ONE 20
MEMBER OF T Ml BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF KEASBEY AND MATT I SON; 21
DID I UNDER 5 T AND YOU CORRCCTLY? 22
A. THAT 'S R I (HT . 23
Q. AND WHO WAS THAT GENTLEMAN, SIR? 24
A. 1 HAT WAS --DU WE TAKE THIS VARIOUS STAGES? 25
I R2
I ii d.
2 I The II vi THAI I FIRST JOINED THE COVI'.'.fc 3 o . 19 5 2?
J A . - - I 1 WAS A ..INULH.AN called SIR WALKER Si-IPfi! f;
6 m! WAS A l Sf' fHAIRMAN OK THE POAPD OF THE ' -i
(..V. 6
Nik AND NLW-ll. ; WASN'T ML?
7 A . YLS, HE WAS. I
B i! Q. SO HE WAS CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF TURNER AND
9 NE WAl I AND ALSO a MEMBER ok THE BOARD of DIRECTORS OF LEAS! f
10 5 and m,.iiispn, is that correct?
11 E |l
1?
A. THAT'S RlOUT.
g.
all rioht.
now, did tupner and newall also <>*.
i STULL If) Mk . LEERS' CLIENT, CASS1AR? 13
14 A . - f S . THEY DID.
U . AND DID A MEMBER OF TURNER-NEWALL'S EOARD of 15
DIRLi I |R S AlSu SIT ON THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF MR . BEERS' 16
CL 1 LN T 17
A . Yt S . 18
! 19 1
!
20
Q- AND WHO MIGHT THAT HAVE BEEN? A . wr LL , THAT VARIED. THERE WERE TWO, 1 THINK--
Q. 7 WO YOU HAD? 21
A . --AT TIMES. CERTAINLY AT ONE STAGE, SIR WALLt.F 22
I1 WAS; SIR RAI I'll BATEMAN WAS. 23
24 i;
Q. SIR RALPH BATEMAN?
! 25
A. RALI'H batlman.
*3
1 g.
ll 2 AND N( *A( i ,
\\
3.
DID HF. CFLOMl. CHAIRMAN UK THL HULUING COMPANY , ALSO?
il 5, III. DIH.
4 ;!
0. AND WH|. N T ML --F.r ASBC Y AND
THE BOARD OF TUPNE*MAT T I SON WAS SOLD IN
i|
5 i THE UNITED STATIS IN 191? OP '3; WAS IT NOT?
!l
6 A. YES.
7 Q. AND OUC 01 THE PLANTS WAS SOLD TO A COMPANY 1A
B CER 1 Al N-Tt CD; V.'AS IT NOT?
9 A. IT WAS .
10 Q. THE PLANT HlP.E IN SAINT LOUIS?
1 1 A . YES.
12 i
Q. AND WHEN THE PLANT IN SA1 NT LOUIS WAS SOLD T"
13 ,i; CER T A I N-TU D , TURNER AND NEWALL WAS THE MAJOR STOCKHOLDER IN
14 CLP. I A 1 N - T LLD ; WAS IT NO I ?
A. IT HAD A bUESTANTJAL HOLDING. IS
g. WELL, IK THAT LITTLE BOOK SAID THEY WERE THE r 16
1 7 I' SHAi | niil.DI P , YOU WOULDN'T DISAGREE WITH THAT; WOULD YOU?
18 A . WOULDN'T KNOW WHETHER THEY WERE THE MAJOR.
l! BUT THEY HAD A SUBSTANTIAL HOLDING. 19 |
I DON'T REMEMBER IT 01 I
jj TOP Of MY HI AD. 20
BUT 1 -- IT'S A MATTER OF RECORD.
;i
^ 21
g. DID THE CHAIRMAN OK THE BOARD OF TURNER AND Ni
i SIT UN 1 HI BOARD OK DIRECTORS OT CERTAIN-TEED? 22
A. YES, SIR. AT ONE TIME, HE DID. 23
ji 24
;l
g.
i.WLRt- hr (HI
?S
NOW, THIS TURNER ASBESTOS FIBRE COMPANY ThAT T WAY, HOW MANY EMPLOYEES, WHEN YOU LEFT
99
1 . 1 U f < i K lit v./. Ii III 1^80, H u w MAN? LMPLOrfES, WORLDWIDE, P I D
2 , 1 URNi P Ml. W -Ml HAVE III AIL ITS AIFlLlATE COMPANIES? DO rou
3 M.nvJ .
u , A. AGAIN, IT'S A MATTER OF RECORD. I CAN'T p(;m-
5 ' THE I'H Llbt
i g
Q.
I I fiUP.E . WELL, MVI
HUNDRED,
TEN THOUSAND?
7 A. OH, WE'RE TALKING OF SOMEWHERE IN THE--MAY BE
i g ; !HIR I i , I UPI f T HOUSAND.
q U. THIRTY OK M;K T Y THOUSAND EMPLOYEES AROUND IH
10 , wuki.o
1 I A . Y[ S .
1? n. AND AT T HI. Ik HEAD^uAR TEP S AT TURNER AND NEWA.
I.IMIII,', H> V. "ANY P E (' T' L L V.'CRE THERE? '3 I 14 A. I'M NUT IIRTAIN OF THIS, RUT I WOULD HAVE Th
AROUNI A HUMPED AND THIRTY. 15
16 i
17 :
ii 18 j|
U. A HUNDRED AND THIRTY? A . YES. Q . AND THEY WERE CORRESPONDING WITH AND PARTICM'
IN THI BUSINESS ACTIVITIES OF ALL THE SUBSIDIARIES; IS THAT 19
CORRECT? 20
A. 21
22 I ji
2J
Q. A.
THEY WERE CORRESPONDING WITH THE COMPANIES. YES. THEY DID VERY LITTLE PARTICIPATING.
24 |.
0 . EXCEPT IN THE DIVIDENDS?
A. WLLL, THEY WERE THL STOCKHOLDERS. ?S
S
\ lO'J PAP. 1 I ' I r A 11 l> IN 1M D I V I D L Mt> S ; l > I''
2
t.
T HL Y WL P I I Mi
1 D( KHMI m| P S .
3 (; . YES. Alii' 11 >i i - - e E T ML A S P rou APd'JI ON1
4 Qi'r'iMf|j1 , MP, T MAT HA . ( r I | N f' R t \ I 1
r I DT N 1 I M LI' .
5
m. motley; may I approach lot WITNESS,
1 v
1 IP COUP T : YOU MAY . 6 7 THE WITNESS: I RETURN YOU THESE
Q. (BY MR. MOTLEY) THANK YOU. e
9 HAVE YOU SEEN THOSE HERE TOE ORE?
A. I HAVEN'T seen THESC BEFORE, NO. 10
g. to whom is that correspondence dipected? 11
A. THIS IS ADDRESSED TO A MR. MICHAEL F. howl. 12
WAS THEN THE CHAIRMAN OF ASBESTOS UPPES. 13
g. ALL RIGHT. AND DID ANYBODY WITH T'JPNE P-ME WAL l 14
Rf CE IVE A COPY OF IT? 15
A . YES 16
Q. WHO WAS THAT? 17
A. THEN CHAIRMAN, MR. R. M. BATEMAN. 18
19 Q. MR. BATEMAN?
A . YES . 20
Q. HE WAS CHAIRMAN OF THF. HOLDING COMPANY; IS THAI ?1
COPRECT ? 22
A. ACTUALLY, LOOKING AT THE DATES OF THE LETTER, 23
DON'T THINK HE WAS CHAIRMAN UNTIL LATER. HE WAS PROBABLY 24
DEPUTY CHAIRMAN 25
46
I HI WAS DLCul'i CHAIRMAN. HC WAS THE NUMBL F !
2 II. 1 hi HOLD I NG COMPANY ?
3 A . YES.
d Ci. SO AT LEAST THE NUMBER TWO MAN IN THE HOLDING
5 U)MI CM I.NLw, AS OF THE NATE OF THAT LETTER, WHICH IS WHAT,
6 sir: n i hit i i n wha t ?
7 A. 191)5.
8 (j. 1905, ABOUT THE SAINT LOUIS PLANT MERE RECEIVING 9 TURNER-NEWAL! --TURNER ASBESTOS FIBRES SHIPPED ASBESTOS TO
10 THIS PLANT; IS THAT CORRECT? A. WELL, I BELIEVE SO, YES. AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW
11 THAT THEY DIN IT FROM MY OWN KNOWLEDGE.
12 Q. YES, SIR. HUT DOES THAT LETTER REFLECT, SIR,
13 THAI MR. BA IL MAN, THE VICE-CHAIRMAN OF TURNLR-NEWALL, f r C E I V E P
id A COPY OF A il T T ED THAT RELATED TO TURNER ASBLSTOS FIBRES
15 SHIPPING ASBESTOS FIBERS TO THE SAINT LOUIS PLANT?
16 A. THAT'S RIGHT. OUGHT I TO READ THIS, YOU THINK?
17 Q. YOU CERTAINLY CAN IF YOU LIKE. IT'S BEEN READ
18 TO T HI JURY ONCE .
19 A. YCS.
20 (]. ARE YOU AWARl , SIR, OF AN ORGANIZATION KNOWN AS
21 THE ASBESTOS INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION?
22 A. WELL, I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THEM.
23 0. SIR?
24 A. | HAVE HEARD THE NAME., BUT I KNOW NOTHING AeOUT
25
97
I r he (r ac M . i f 1e s .
2 Q. (>o YOU KNOW WHflHEP. OR NO T TURNER -NEWALL lb "
3 Ml Mf-i () h Ih| A S [if STOS I f.TI RNA1 I oriAL ASSOCIATION?
4 A. I'M NOT SURE T HL Y WLRl; WERE THEY?
5 Q. SIR?
0 A. I DON'T KNOW -- I DON'T RECOLLECT THAT THE' WEf i .
7 G- YOU DON'T ?
sr I: I
9 I. r
)0
A . T HT Y MAY HAVF BEEN, BUT 1'MQ. ALL RIGHT, SI R . NF . M.uT LEY : EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR.
11 '' I
'2 I. I:
13
14 'by hu
ng further questions, your honor. ini iUURT: All MiiilT , MR. B L L R S .
CROSS-EXAM | NAT 1 OM 11 E L R b :
MR. JUNES, MY NAMC IS da: id BEERS. I RE^RES
,6 , BRIN' N
|! ,7 |
Mir. INI,. YOU STARTED--YOU BECAME SECRETARY OF TURNER A-.:
,q i^NCWALL Llf.lli II IN 1 9 3 3 ; IS THAT RIGHT?
|! ,9 jj
j! 20 ji
A. THAT 'S R 1 (> H I . Q. NOW, DID YOU Also SAY YOU WERE ALSO SECRETARY Ol
another one of the turner and newall group? 21 '
A. you're REFERRING TO THE TURNER ASBESTOS FIBRES? 22
Q- WAS THAT THE COMPANY YOU WERE SECRETARY OF?
, 24 j!
A . THAT'S RIGHT.
i CLRI A I ML Y Ol 1 . A . F . . 25 ,
I KAS OF OTHERS AS WELL, BUT
I. 98
' il
Q all R I G111 .
2 ASEI '-IMS I I [Rf S ?
NOW. WMLN WIRE YOU SECP.ETAFy 01
3 A. DURING T Hf WHOLI PERIOD THAT I WAS S E C P E I AR
OF 1 UP HER Alii) MEWALL. il I'
5; ii
6 t NEWA[l ii
7
Q. 1 SEE. NOW, WHAT OTHER MEMBERS OF THE T u R N L f GROUP WERE YOU ALSO SECRETARY OF? A . AIL The OTHER HOME group companies, the MEMBER
8 OF T Ml i.
9 !
,0 '!
|1i !i 11
GRIMM1 that were registered in the u.k. Q. ANY OTHERS? A . NO . Q. now, when you became secretary of turner -nev.
12 : L 1 r i i :
VH * as chairman of turner-ncwall limited?
13 i
Mj
A SIR WALKER SHLPHFRD. o. WAS SIR WAl1 LR PRLS1 DENT --EXCUSE ME, C MA1R MAN
15 OF AN f OF Ini OTHER TURNIP-NEWAL L GROUP COMPAMES?
16 | 1
17 ;
1; 18
A . YES, HE WAS. <1 CAN YOU TELL ME WHICH ONES? A . ALL--
19 Q- WELL --
20 2,
22 j
A . K E AS BE Y-MA T T1 SON. Q. HE WAS CHAIRMAN OF KEASBEY AND MATT ISON? A . YES, HE WAS. fj. ALL RIGHT. NOW, WAS HE ALSO CHAIRMAN OF TURf.C
AS BESTOS FI HPl 5 ?
A. I DON'T REMEMBER THAT BECAUSE THERE WAS CERT/I 25
I :fi 1 It'd *HlN IHI'j WAS ONE 01 1HL--AT ONE TIME THE CMAIP.MAN
:|
2 m TURN! R At .1> NTWALL CUSTOMARILY WAS.
'I
EUT THERE CAME A T|VL
3 , WHIN HI NO L i i f; i, f P WAS.
i 4 . HUT THL'P'l wAs A I I MC --
5 I L'Oi. ' T - -
.i
6 0- --IN YOUR CAREER WHEN THE CHA I RMAN OF TURNER-
i 7 I NEWALL LIMITED was CUSTOMARILY THE CHAIRMAN OF TURNER ASBCSTO
j
e
I I IBRl S ? I
9 A . IrliT'S RIGHT, YES.
10 ALL RhOlT. WHO WAS T HE PRESIDENT OF TURNER-
11
, NEWALL I;
LIMIT 10 WHEN
YOU of)T
ThCRI"?
1? /
A. WELL, WL" DIDN'T HAVE THE APPOINTMENT OF PRESIfi
13 o. ;>iu turner asbestos fibre have a president wh: n
14 T UU 1.0 I I Hi >- I
15 r r
16 ; i
A . NU . (J . 1 SEE. DIO TURNER-NEWALL LIMITED LATER GET A
1 7 PRE S I 01 NT ? li
18 A. They HAD AN HONORARY PRESIDENT AT ONE TIME,
ii 19 !i WHO WAS A RETIRED CHAIRMAN.
l
i 20 II
Q I SEE.
; 21 I
j 22
A. but it was never an active appointment. (1. WAS THERE an HONORARY CMAIRMAN--EXCUSE ME. S T K
|j THAT.
23 i
j, 24
i,i : fibres: 25
WAS THERE EVER A PRESIDENT OF TURNER ASBESTOS
50 i,
1 A . MM, THERE WASN'T.
2 (2. AIL RIGHT. NOW, LET'S JUST TAKE FROM '53 -- J *' :
,.\ ,
.1
. can YOU Mil. Mr ANY OTHER INDIVIDUALS Wh
4 B'.TH III I |U 1'S Of TURNER-fiLWALL LIMITED AND OFFICERS OF TURN!I I
5 ,| ASBESTOS F I [IRC 5 ?
ii A. YES. THERE WAS THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, WHO'S 6i
7 USU-'-Ll i A MlMuLR OF THE BOARD OF TURNER ASBESTOS F 1 P R E S .
] 8
(1. WAS HE AN OF t I CER --OH, I SEE. WAS HE ALS" Dl
i CHAIRMAN mi TURNER ASBESTOS FIBRES? 9
10
'i
11 I
A. I'M NOT SURE THERE WAS SUCH AN APPOINTMENT. Q. BUT HE WAS ON THE BOARD?
i! 12 ;i
A. HE WAS ON TflL BOARD.
13 !i
o.
'l
14 i;
15 r; I S ADURE SSI h .
OKAY. THERE
ANY OTHERS? WAS A MR. MICHAEL
HOWE
TO WHOM THIS
LEI 1 | -
;i
16
Q- OKAY.
17 !'
A . AND I THINK THAT REPRESENTS THE LOT. VERY S M A Ll
]' BOARD . 18
|i o-
19 i!
f, 20 !
A. Q-
21 I
I 'M SORRY ! A VERY SMALL BOARD. NOW, WAS THERE ANYONE ON THE BOARD OF TURNER
, ASBESTOS FIBRIS WHO WAS NOT ON THE BOARD OF TURNER-NEWALL 22
L IMI TLD? 23 I
. 24
A. YES. MICHAEL HOWL, HIMSELF, WAS NEVER A M E M f E ?
or IHL TUKNLR-newall board. 2b
S1 I
1 B' I T Ht WAS AN OM 1U.R OF I ML f UK'Nt M -fi l-'-i i
2 l I M I 1 i l1
3 A . (JO, he was?. ' T . 4 Q. I SEE. W M A I --
5 A. MIS JUD WAS 10 PUN I HE AI1AIRS OF--HE WAS Al
THE M NERAl MANAGER. THEY ARE NOT SO CALLED, BUT HE WAS Gi t.l 6 7 MANAGER OE TURNER ASBESTOS FIBRES. 6 Q. I SEC. ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHAT ABOUT TURNER 9 OROTHERS ASBESTOS? WAS THE--WERE THERE ANY OFFICERS OF
10 TURNER EJROTHLPS ASBESTOS WHO WERE ALSO OFFICCRS OF TURN'ER-
NEWAll LIMITED? 11
A. YES. FOR A TIME T MECHAIRMAN OF TURNER B R G 7 1'1 12
ASBES1OS--lHE CHAIRMAN OF THAT COMPANYWAS AT ONE TIME A 13
14 MLMLiL r Of
ii I 15
0.
THE TURNER-NE WALL B0AR[> . ANO WHO WAS THAT?
i' 16 I'
17
A . WELL , I T VAR I ED . Q. ALL RIGHT. LET ME WITHDRAW--
A. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A MAN CALLED MOHRLING. 18
Q. DID MR. MOHRLING--WAS HE EVER ON THE BOARD OR 19
AN OFFICER OF TURNER ASBESTOS FIBRES? 20
A. NEVER. 21
Q. OFAY . NOW, TURNER ASEESTOS FIERESWASN'T ALW.v, 22
A Stl'ARATl i.oRPORAT I ON; WAS IT? 23
A . NO , l T WASf ' T . 24
Q. WAS IT AT ONE TIME MERELY A DEPARTMENT OF 25
! TURN! R ANDN F W A L L LIMIT! D?
S2
/ . A I < Nt T I Mfc IT WAS, YES.
2 . DO YOU REMLMLER WHEN THAT WAS?
3 A . 1 S 1 (I ' S ?
4 MR. I'.ilRS: EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR .
5 MR. MOTLEY: PAGL <>2.
6 MR. mullvcrson: PAGE 62. 7 MR. MOTLEY: PAGE 62, MR. BEERS.
8 MR. BLERS: I KNOW. WHAT DID YOU DO, (AT IT? I KNOW,
9 YOU GOBBLED IT UP.
10 MR. MOTLEY: HERE YOU GO.
11 (A DOCUMENT WAS GIVEN TO MR. BEERS.)
Q. (BY MR. BEERS) NOW, WOULD YOU JUST READ THAT l?
BOTTOM I'ARAORAPM ON PAGE (, 2 TO US? PEAD IT OUT LOUD. 13
A. "ANY COMPANY OWNING--" THAT'S THE ONE? 14
IS IT "ANY COMPANY ov.NING INTERDEPENDENT MINING"? 15
0 . EXCUSE ME . YF.S. 16
A. "ANY COMPANY OWNING INTERDEPENDENT MINING AND 17
MANUT At. T UR I NG UNITS HAS TO INSURE EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION 18
AND C1 " i I'E R A I ION BETWEEN THEM. RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE I'.i
MAINI! NANCE OF SUCH LINKS AND FOR THE SALES OF FIBER FROM T Hf 20
GROUPS MINIS TO INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL CONSUMERS LIES WITH 21
TURNER ASBESTOS FIBRES LIMITED, WHICH ASSUMED ITS TITLE IN 22
I! 1 9 0 3. I' P 1 Y 111H S L Y , THE ORGAN! Z AT | Of; HAD EXISTED IN MUL TIFARlr 2J
GU I 6l S : SON: i I ME S AS A r & N HE AD OFFICE DEPARTMENT, St'NTI".
21
. AS A . I I AKA I I COMPANY . " 26
S3
t Q. THAT ' S L Nf'ijf.H . 2 A . T HAT ' 5 ENOUGH /
3 Q. S' IP [ , NO*, DO YOU F COC. f i I Z L THAT AS A PAoL I -
4 " T UK IU R AND NLWAL.L, THE TIRST FIFTY YEARS"?
6 A. T r S, I DO.
6 O. AND DO YOU AGREE WITH THE STATEMENT IN THAT [ 7 A. THAT'S RI GHT, YES.
8 Q. NOW -- I
9 ; A. I'M NOT SURE IF I WOULD AGREE WITH THE STATEN: N' 1 i "MUl 1 I I AR I i,US , " WHICH MEANS IT SWITCHES FROM ONE TO AN- 'of, .
11 IN i . IT i
12 *; :i
13
g. A.
v. AS A SEQUENCE . ii was originally-FROM THE DEPARTMENT
TO A COMPANY,
AND THAT
COMP.*.
14 : LH AUGt 0 MS I .AML TO T . A . I . .
15 Q. I SEE. BUT ORIGINALLY IT WAS NOT A SEPARATE i
16 i COMPANM IT WAS JUST PART OF TURNER-MEWALL LIMITED?
17 j
A. THAT'SRIGHT.
18 :
q.
all right,
now, you referred in your testimony,
i 19 IN YOUR ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS BY MR. SHOEMAKE--I THINK I GOT
20 THIS RIGHT--AS TURNER ASBESTOS FIBRES AS, QUOTE, "THE BROKERING
ARM OF ASBESTOS FIBER OF T t N." I I
?? i! A. YES.
Q. DO YOUREMLMDER THAT? 23
A . YES. 24
25
i
Q. WHAT DID YOUMEAN BY THAT?
5^ li
1
A.
WL LI
n Ai.itD as a broker of fiber, anl> ir
? I L ; -f [' I'I| IIPLPS Of lUMl'Al.ll 5 I N WHICH TEN OWNED MINI'.'
3 l f;
I l S If. WHICH I G N MAD AN iNTfPlST AND ALSO OF ('1"LI
4 , M V.'V. TUf IP JOB, REAlli, 10 KNOW WHfRC FIBER PARTICULAR
5 , types was
i
io he obtained,
and
tu uoin up
the
people
who wepi
6 : API I ft) S"> rLY THOSE VARIOUS IHLPS WITH OTHERS WHO WISHEP T
7 DU r I Hi M. THIS IS WHAT I MEAN p, r "PROPER I NG JOB."
8 ;
0 . THEN, I THINK, you SAID THAT THIS JOB was TO
9 'j OUT ADD BROKER OR GET FIBER, AS YOU PUT IT, FIBER, QUOTE, "W
ii
10 ''WE WISHED TO PURCHASE." !l I
n jj DO YO'J REMINDER THAT?
THAT'S WHAT I TOOK DOWN IN MY NOTES
,2 m
A. WELL, I THINK NOT WHICH WE WISHED TO PURCHASE .
|l 13 jj CUMIN'. from MY MOUTH.
IT WOULD BE WHICH A CUSTOMER OF T.a.`
!| 14 11 V.' I S H t D To I U R C H A S f. .
15 Q. YOU DIDfi'T SAY "WHICH WE WISHED TO PURCHASE"? 16 A. I DON'T REMCMECR SAYING THAT. i; Q. NOW, WHEN--DURING THE PERIOD OF THE 'JO'S, 18 'NO'S, AND 'SO'S, UNTIL '62 WHEN TURNER-MEWALL OWNED KEASDEY T9 MATT ISON, WAS KEASEEY AND MATTISON FREE TO BUY FIBER ON THC 20 OPCN MARKET? 21 A . OH, YES. 2? Q. AND D 1 D 1 T BUY MUCH FIBER ON THC OPEN MARK CT ?
A . 1 DON'T THINK 1T DID, IN FACT . 23 24 Q. 1 SEE . WHERE DID IT BUY THE BULK OF ITS Fli.LF
HOW Li ID IT ARRANGE FOR THE' FI PER THAT IT WANTED TO BUY ON A 2b
j 6b
1 Y AH f PAS I
2 A. VI l L , I T COUGH 1 A 1 OT OF IT. STUFF WAS eotjGMl
3 FROM l.F l.L DIF.tCT. WHEN YOU SAY "MOW DID IT GET ITS FIBERS,"
4 ; IT GOT SOME OF ITS FIBERS DIRECT FROM SUPPLIERS ON THE NORTH l|
5 : AMERICAN CONTINENT, IN THE WIDEST SENSC. FROM OTHER SOURCES,
Jj IT OBTAINED ITS FIBERS THROUGH THE BROKERING ACTIVITIES OF 6
II 7 li T.A.F. .
8 (i . FOR EXAMPLE, IF IT WANTED SOME SOUTH AFRICAN
9 F I BL r - -
I 10 !
A.
THAT 'S RI GUT .
11 ,
i:
Q. --IT WOULD CUT IT FROM TURNER ASBESTOS FIBRES' A . YF S .
13 OP IT WOULD HUY IT FROM TURNE R-NE WALL LP'MLl
14 . DURIN'. THAI riRIUD IN WHICH T.A.F. WASJUST A DEPAR T M E N T 0'<
15 TURNER-NEWAi L LIMITED; IS THAT CORRECT?
!'
16 ^
A. THAT'S RIGHT.
17
, l
i
g. NOW, IN 1G 2, WHEN TURNER-ME WALL SOLD THE PIPE
18 j, PLANT:, TO LI P TAIN- TEED, WAS THERE ANY ARRANGEMENT EETWEEN
19 TURNER AND NT. WALL AND C I. R T A I N - T L E D REWARDING THE PURCHASE OF
20 FI BCR BY CFRTAIN-TEED?
A. YES, THERE WAS. 21
22 I !
23
Q. WHAT WAS THAT ARRANGEMENT? A. AS FAR AS I RECALL IT, THERE WAS AN AGREEMENT
UNDER WHICH CERTAIN- TEE (J AGREED TO BUY CERTAIN FIBERS FROM 24
jj TURNLR AND NF WAL L --NOT I ROM T U R NE P-NE WAL L , BUT FROM TURNER-NEW.' 25
I:
bb
SlJUK'l
YOU UNDLP.STAND ML.
i pc'm turner Ann newall suurces?
A. Ili.M'S RIGHT. THAT'S FROM COMPANIES EITHER WH I < M
TURNI T -l.l WAm IIAIi A SHAk LH'M l> I N'. INTEPEST IN, UR OTHER COMPANY'
..WHICH I.A.I.. 1HLMSELVES, MM.Hl UCL AS A SOURCE FOR THE ` I El : |j
j, REQUIPU'. I'l I'LfJDS ON WHAT WAS WANTED.
;l
|j| Q. STRIU THAT .
SO CERTAIN-TEED, STRIKE T HA T .
IN a WORD, HAD TO BUY FROM - - WE l
! HOW LONG DID THAT ARRANGEMENT LAST, OR HOW LON'.
WAS II amci'usED TO LAST? !
; A. I HAVE an IDEA IT CAME TO AN END SOMETIME i; [| AhUU T T HT MIDDLE ' 7 0 ' S .
AO UNDER THAI ARRANGEMENT, CERTAIN-TEED had TC 1 I
Al L 1 ' S l 1 I'L - 1 1 I HER FROM, KiRNfR -NE WALL COM PAN Y OR THKUIj."
TURNi 1- - ';: W A i '.
A . WELL , I'M NOT SUP L ABOUT ALL THE F IFER, EE CAUSE
0- SUBSTANTIALLY ALL OR THE BULL. OF 1 T ? A , I'M A F RAID 1 DON'T RECALL THE PREC 1 SE DETAILS N
1 THL A(,P 1.1 M| N I . i
BUT I KNOW THERE WAS AN AGREEMENT RELATING TO Tl
'BUYING <'> I
; Q.
THL FI BLR . WHO WERE THE PARTIES TO THAT AGREEMENT?
I ASSUME
i ;CERTAIN-TELD ON UNC SIDE, BUT WHO WAS THE OTHER PARTY TO THAT
;i
JagRECMI NT ? it T
|, A.
ii
I DON'T KNOW .
ij MA T T L R OF RLGOPD. COULD WE
I SHOULD CHECH. ON
HAVE THOUGHT THAT?
THIS
WAS
A
t Q IT WAS TURNER AMD NEWALL LIMITLD THAI SO;i i ASSETS TO ( I RTAIN-TELD; WASM'T IT?
A. WELL, WAS IT MOT K i M, IN FACT? T , N HA..-
4 SHAKES.
Q. I SEC . A. AND WHAT WAS SOLD TO CERTAIN-TEED WAS ASsLi
j AMD NOT SHAKES. i!
Q. I
SCI .
SO, YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER THE A i > K i i
in i ; ' : ( t t i ai n-terr egr the purchase of fiber i ok i hi
I- i : \ R b WAS WITH turme r - NL wall LIMITED
w
A , U ;. S I 'S I I I RL S? 11
A . 1 CAN'T RECALL.
Q. BUT YOU ELL 1 EVE 1 T WAS F ROM ONE OR T H[. 0 i
A . THAT WOULD HAVL HAD TO EE SO.
U- ALL R 1 i. H T . NOW , DO YOU REMEMBER MR. v u E H li 15
wnu's PRESIDENT OF I1ASBEY AND MATT ISON? '6
A . I DO . 17
18 ii
Q. DID HE EVER WORK FOR TURNER-ME wall ?
i 19 I
! 20 |
'
A. DID HI ! Q. YES. A. 1 HAVE THIS RECOLLECTION THAT AT ONE TIME Hi
21
MAY HAVE SPENT SOME TIME WITH ONE OF OUR COMPANIES--
",
| 23 ]
Q. HE WAS ANEMPLOYEE?
2J 1
A. --BUT THIS IS NOT--THIS IS, AS IT WERE, VL-
: MUi.H 111 ARSAf BECAUSI IT IS SOMETHING THAT 1 GOT TOLD AT A 25
b8
;l I
UH^ ' I AGl .
IHIS WAS LUNG BEFORE Mr I I ME .
0. BUT THAI WAS YOUR UNDERSTANDINGS
A . I T H I N1 I 1 I 5 .
g. NOW, COULD YOU f ISH OUT FOR ME TURNER-NLWALL'S
5 I EXHI BI T HH ?
.1
!i a. rrs.
6 !
: Q. r.OULD YOU TURN TO THE CHART ON THE LAST PAGE 'I
I 8 j| THA 1 IXHILII, THE ONE THAT'S HfADCD "RAW MATERIALS STOCKS
,, \ AS OF NOVLMIN R 3 1, 1939"?
A. WL'RE or: TO THE WRONG DATE HERE. THIS IS H" .
10
THL COURT: HH IS LXH1 PI T--HOLD ON. 11
MR. IN IRS: I MAPL A MISTAKE. IT'S EE. I APOU'GIZl. 12
T ML LOURT : f E . 13
O . (BY MK . Blt.B) TC. SORRY, MR. JONES. IS T 1' ' Id
1 HL J./lNiu i - 15
16 ,1
A . <LS, THAT'S RIGHT.
g. AND YOU UNO l P S T AND THAT WAS THE INVENTORY 0: 17
18i1'klASUY AND MATT I SON STOCKS AS OF NOVEMBER 3 1 , 1 9 3 9 ?
i: 19 j
20
21
22 i
2J i r i!
!j
25 'l
A . YES. MR . HPRUAN: there CAN'T BE A NOVEMBER 31ST, YOUR HON Q. (BY MR. BEERS) DOES 1 T SAY NOVEMQER 31ST? A . THAT ' S WHAT IT SAYS. MR . MORGAN: 1 DON 'T REALLY DOUBT 1 T-- 11 DOUBT IT. g C BY mr. blips) all RIGHT. BUT IT DOES SAY :s A . IT DOES SAY 1939.
l S9
1
: i ii H li-' I
mi RE WAS A 1 *) 3 ().
-> '). (BY MR. BURS) COULD YOU TELL ML WHERE PLANTS
3 UNL
lwu wi Rf ?
4 A. I'M f|Mj s l M- i I (Ml. I'M. GUESS mu. I'M NUT S'1'
5 Will." 1 '1,1 II WAS MOV. .
'S BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE I LOURED
6 A1 1 7
U
DU YUU KNOW V.'HiCH PLANTS ARE REPRESENTED By
8 PLANTS WI Rl IN SAINT LOUIS? 9 A. Y L S, I DO. THAT WAS PLANT THREE,
10 y. AND THAT IS THE SHINGLE PLANT; RIGHT?
11 I
! 1?
A. YL S, THAT'S RIGHT. Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, COULD YOU TELL ME - - YOU SEE V.'-v -
13 THE LIST-- IT SAYS "FieCP" AND HAS LISTS OF FIBEPS WITH NUMFi.PS I
14 , AND LI ITERS UN I T ?
IS I
16 j
17
A. YES. y. WHAT'S NUMBER ONE CRUDE? A. WELL, NUW , I'M AFRAID I'M NOT AN EXPERT ON THE
VARIOUS GRADES OF ASBESTOS. 18 I'
j1 19
Q. ALL K I GHT .
A. SOME OF THESE I CAN GIVE YOU HELP WITH, BUT SOM; 20
OF THEM I CAN'T. 21 I'
II
22 i'
y. I JUST WANT HELP WITH THE ONE S YOU CAN BE H L L P F u l
i WITH. NUMBER ONE CRUDE YOU DON'T KNOW? 23
A . NO . 24
C>- HOW ABOUT C AND G-l? 25
10
Yt.S, (. A f J i > u MAPv WERE mi. ONES THAT C A Mi I f,
WHA1 Vs AS Tn[f, RHODESIA, FROM SMABANl.
AND WHO UWf.t (' ? HA I
fir/
1 HI FiiOI)[ S|A[. MININ'. COMPANY , AFRICAN ASS'! I '
5 M I Nl S .
i o.
L> 1 D IURNE B -NLWALL HAVE ANY INTEREST IN THAT
7 A . u s. THEY U 1 0 .
8-
0- HOW MUL H ?
9 A . WELL , THEY HAD A SHARE --They HAD A SHA RE 1 N T
10 IN 1 Hi company, AF RI CAN ASSOCIATED MINES.
11 i 1? ; TIBER.
Q. WOU LI'
NOW, when KEASBEY and matt i son bought THAT c r, ( IT HA V F BOUGHT THAT THROUGH SOME TURNER - N l r. A L .
ENT 1 I ' 13
i 10 i
A.
THEY BOUGHT THAT THROUGH WHAT IS NOW T.A.F..
o. WHAT WAS THLN TURNLR-NLwALL LIMITED? IS
A . WELL, Y L S . I SUPPOSE If. 1 9 3 9 IT PROBABLY WAS. 1G
1 DON ' 1 KNOW IF THEY MAI) E THE CHANGEOVER. 17 1
18 Q. HOW ABOUT A-J-K?
19 '
A . NO. I DON'T FIND ANY I DENT 1FYING -- ANYTH1NG TO
HELP .
20 j
21 !
Q. WHY DON'T YOU GO DOWN THE LIST AND TELL ME V'ma 1'
THE Nl XT ONI
?? i
23 ,
A.
YOU RECOGNIZE? WE COME TO A --ANOTHER C G.
20 I';
O. THAT'S ANOTHER MINE IN WHICH TURNER-NEWALL
! HAD AN 1 NTLI'l bT ? ?S
E1
1
WILL, 'IS.
1 I ' I 1 Wl V\ A L I. I l! A t S A! |
2 r. .
3 <; . VIS.
4 A . S-L-K, 1 RAT H|P THIN* WAS A HELL GRAUL.
5 ,M'[' WAS A JOHNS -MANV II l.l. NPADE . lYl'RISS SF'EAC.S FOP |! S* L 1 .
6 ') IT MAY M' 1 AC. FOR |Ts||F FOR Y(TU, SIR, PUT W
7 OWNLD THE CYPRESS MINI.?
8 A . 1 DON'T KNOW V.'HO OWN! 0 THE CYPRESS MINE. IT
WASN'T US. I DON'T KNOW WHO OWtILH I HA T . 9
Q. WOULD KtASQLY AND 74A ! 7 I SON HAVE BOUGH) 7 HA f f if'f f 10
11 IHPMUGH TURNER-NEWALL? 12 A . WELL, THEY WOULD HAVE BOUGHT IT THROUGH l.A.F . 13 Q- PROBABLY THROUGH T U R N L P-NE W AL L LIMITED, 1 UT.. 14 YOU SAID, AT THIS TIME?
A . AT THIS TIME, YES. 15
n . OC AY . HOW ABOUT SC ICING DOWN TO T-L? v.U ' 16
THAT? 17
A . T-L, I'M AFRAID 1 CAN'T HELP YOU WITH. 18
19 Q. JMM, 1 TAKE IT YOU KNOW WHAT THAT IS?
A. THAT'S RIGHT. JME, THAT'S JOHNS-MANV1LLl. 20
Q. OKAY. HOW ABOUT SB-7-D?
21 A. NO .
22 Q. WELL, WHAT'S THE NEXT ONE?
23 A . 1 THINK 1 COULD BE MORE HELPFUL IF | WE'Ri :
24 TURN TO A LATER COPY OF THIS WHERf SOME OF THESE f I OUR I
25
62
1 AC 1 ' I I i X/..L 1 HE NAME S .
I 2 , HA V l HAMl '> All ACHED .
I HL SL CURIOUS CAPITALISTIC Sl.N,
3,
I: 4
Q. WE'LL DU THAT | H HALF A MINUTE. BUT, AP.L THERE ANY OTHERS ON, THAT LIST THAT YOU
5 ! WOULD RE LOON 1lL?
6 ;
A. I DON'T KNOW. Q. WOULD YOU TURN TO ONE WHERE YOU DO HAVE--WHERE
8 YOU SAIU IT HAD THE NAMES. THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL.
9 A. I HAD THAT IN MY HAND A FEW MINUTES AGO.
10 Q. B C FORE YOU READ FROM IT, YOU'D BETTER TELL Mf
11 WHAT IT IS ID MAKE SURE WE ALL HAVE IT, OR WE'RE SUPPOSED M
HAVE I T .
i 13
THL i HURT: MR. BE C R S, MR. HULLVERSON?
14 I
I;
15 'I
'6 ;i
THL WITNESS: IT'S -- THE COURT: JUST A MOMENT.
(A DISCUSSION WAS HELD OFF THE
11 :
RECORD AT THE BENCH.)
18 ' I
THE COURT: MR. JONES, CAN YOU ADVISE US WHICH
DUCUMI NT YOU HAVE NOW GONE TO THAT'S MARKED AS AN EXHIBIT.'
iy it
i!
20 ,!
THE WITNESS: YES, YOUR HONOR. THIS IS T C N FXHIill
THL COURT: LL. ALL RIGHT. WITH T HAT -21
MR. BIERS: JUST MAKE SURE WE GOT THE RIGHT PAGE,
22
JUL"-: . 2J
(A DISCUSSION WAS HELD OFF THE 24
RECORD AT THE BENCH.) 25
6}
\ MR. RfERS: OkAi , FINE. T HANK YOU.
2
IMF. WITNESS;
IT's HEADED NOVEMBER 1 9 4 G .
3 THE (HURT: ARt Wl ON T HE SAML TRAIL?
4 MR. BEERS: YES, SIR.
5 THE UUJRT; OTHER COUNSEL UNDERSTAND WHERE HE IS
6 THEN? HE'S BEGINNING WITH LL. 7 AT THIS POINT, WE'RE GOING TO RISE FOR THE
8 DAY. C OUR I WILL ADJOURN AND BEGIN TOMORROW AT 9:00 A.M.
9 (THE COURT ADJOURNED FOR THE DAY.)
10 11 MARCH 9, 1982 12 THE (CURT: MR. JONES; MR. JONES, WE HAVE A NEW 13 DAY, SO WOULD YOU PLEASE BE SWORN AGAIN? 14 ARTHUR DAVID NICHOLAS JONES (CONTINUED), 15 WITNESS ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS TURNER AND NEWALL, WAS 16 RESWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: 1 7 THE COURT: YOU MAY RESUME INQUIRY, MR. BEERS. 18 MR. BEERS: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. BEERS: 20
Q. MR. JONES, DO YOU HAVE COPIES BEFORE YOU Or : 21
EXHIBITS WE WERE TALKING ABOUT LAST NIGHT, EE TO MM?
22
A. 1 HAVE NO COPIES BEFORE ME AT THE MOMENT. 23
THE ( OURT : THE CLERK. HAS THEM. 24
0. (BY MR. BEERS) NOW, AS I RECALL. WHEN WL K L ` 26
69
1 l A1.| NIGH1 . rill) KtPl- FISHING OU T ONE OF THE LATER STOCK
2 INVIUnRt P| M'RL'S THAT you SA|[) WOULD SHOW THE NAMES OF T mi
3 COMPANIES SOI--. LYING THf F I [U R ; OO YOU REMEMBER THAT?
4 A . 1 DO
5 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WHICH ONE THAT WAS That you ha
6 SLL1 CUD? WAS IT HH?
7
A.
1 THINK IT WAS KK.
THL HH COPY has got some
8 CUT OF F .
MR . MORR IS : AS 1 RECALL, IT WAS LL; WASN'T IT?
10 ; jl i1
11 | ||
12 1
THE COURT : THE LAST LAUGH OF THE DAY.
IT WAS LL.
MR . BE [ R S :
that was before i moved for the mistrial.
T HE i ouP.T : t ha r ' S R 1 GHT , WHICH 1 HAVE UNDER ADVlSf'l
lA sx
n
'3 i:
MR .
1 Thought That HE HAD REJECTED THAT
14 Suggest ion h
15 'H 16
the 1 OUR T : MR . Bi l. R S :
Oh, all right. AND IT WAS HH?
17 I1
I1
18 1 I
010
THE WITNESS; YOUR HONOR, IF I STAR1 PI T H, BUT TH[ PHOTOGRAPH
COULD GO BA C K, THE to THAT FlAS BEEN TAKEN, I'
I,
l0 ''cuts off SOM: OF THE LETTERS.
i!
_ ,,
20 j;
MR . Bi t R S : ALL P. I GhT .
i
! THE v: l I NE SS : AND THE NEXT ONE,
!
LL,
IS PERFECTLY C!|a:
1 2? j'
THL COURT: MR. BEERS, I'M NOT TRYING TO DIRECT
''YOU As TO V/M I l H ONE TO (.0 TO. 7J
I
; 25 I
MR. hilRS: GO TO THAT ONI. THAT'S FINE. 0. (BY MR. BIERS) NOW, YOU SEE ON THE LEIT-HAO;
GS
1 I'M UMM 1 Mt LIST OF FI BEKS?
2 A . 1 'M sorry. 1 r I ND 1 T A LITTLE D1F F |CUL i 1 0 1 '
3
1 M: ' 11 I , ' E S .
T HANK YOU .
4 1 HE ( "t ir T : NOW, JUST TO CLARIFY F OR THE COURT , WtM "
6 ON L AR{ W1 N- T START 1 NG W 1 TH?
MR . bt i rs : AM 1 CORRECT T HAT WE ARE START ING WITH LL,
6
7 AMD THE LAS! RAGE OK WHICH IS HLADED "RAW MATERIAL STOCKS,
NOVEMBER IOC',," AMD HAS, UP IN THE UPPER TOP RIGHT CORNER,
8
9 "K C M L OMI'AN V . " DO YOU SEE THAT?
10 the WITNESS: YES, I DO.
Q. (BY MR. BEERS) AMD THESE- -JUST TO MAKE SUP!. v.` 'FT
11
ALL TALKING ABOUT THE SAME THING, THESE ARE, AS YOU U M D E? C ' 12
IT, THESE ARE INVENTORY RECORDS OK FIBER STOCKS ON HAND AT T -- 13
VARIOUS KEASllt Y AND MATT I SON PLANTS THROUGHOUT THE UNITED 14
STATIC THAT WIRE SENT TO TURNER AND NEWALL LIMITED OR TO T . . I , IS
ALONG WITH THL REGULAR BOARD MINUTES OF KEAS8EY AND MAT T I S' N; 16
IS THAT CORRECT? 17
A . YES, THA T ' S CORRECT. 18
Q. ALL R 1 GMT
19
Q. THl S 1 s, IN FACT, NOVEMBER '46.
20
Q. 1 'M SORRY , YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. 1 Ml SRLA
21
NOW, DOWN THE LEFT-HAND COLUMN IS A LIST OK 22
TYPES; IS THAT CORRECT? 23
A . THAT ' S CUR R L CT. 24
0. ALL RIGHT. AMD WL WON'T READ ALL OK ThIM, 26
fif.
\ a I I'
jus i t At f r hc f (UM( i (-s nut, two am; three: crude.
II nuMi'i l
oni Ann two i puoi , whose fibep was that?
A. oriE AMD T W(| IS BEIL'S.
Q. Aun WHAT'S HUMBER ONE CRUDE-CRL? I
1 A. r MAT I DON ' T RECALL.
Q. OKAY . WH ( DON'T YOU SKIP DOWN TO S-R-K ; WHI M
I F I BE K 7 I!
i 8 i>
IS THAI / A. S-4-K
IS BELL'S.
9 Q. IS THEPC ANOTHER S-A-K RIGHT ABOVE IT?
A . YES, THERE IS.
10
11
1? ' 12
Q- whose IS that? A . THAT ' s COR DOR AT ION.
(vi .* ASBESTOS CORPORATION?
M ASBESTOS CORPORATION.
0 . JMD-R-M ? lb
A . JMD-L-M, THAT'S JOHNS-MANVILLE.
10
17 i
1
YOU s 18 !
0 . ALL RIGHT. NOW, WOULD YOU SK 1 P DOWN TO--WCUU If' DOwN TO AIJY 1 IBER TYPE WHICH WAS PURCHASED FOR
KE A SB Y AND MATT ISON AND SUPPLIID TO KEASBEY AND MAT T1 SON
10
BY APR ANG EMI NT OF E1THEP T C N OR T.A.F.?
20 j
A . YES. THE FIRST ONES THAT WOULD UNDOUBTEDLY FA
21
INTO 1 HAT r.ATLGORY ARE T Ml C G G GRADES, BECAUSE THOSE YOU 22
' W 1 L t RECALL, ARE T HC ONES THAT COME FROM THE SHABANI MINE IN
2-i
- Af- R 1 L M .
24 1
j
i
0
AND THAT'S A M1NF .THAT WAS OWNED OR CONTROLLED
G7
1 I r I Uklll P Atii. NEWALL ?
? A. TURNER At.u 1.1 WALL MELD STOCK IN THE ComPANi
3 OWN! 1 11.
4 0 WAS M cunt rollimg stock ?
5
1
6
A . IT WAS CONI ROLL 1 Ml. STOCK. (>1 NOW, BY THE WAY, WHEN KEASBEY AND MATT ISON
7 !i SOME MDLR THAT ORIGINATED FROM, SAY, THE S HA PAN | MINE, T--i l;
8 i C C (, FIBER OR ANY OF THE OTHERS THAT WERE SUPPLIED BY A M | N|
9 OWN ! D OR cor 1 ROLLED BY TURNER AND NEWALL, WHO DID >' E ASBL i
10 AND MAT T 1 SO! PAY? WHO INVOICED KEASBEY AND MAT T 1 SON 0
11 A.
!
1?
'.KM'WUUt'E, i
WELL, I'M NOT SURE 1 CAN ANSWER THAT O r cur I WO W L P ASSUME TmAT IT WENT TO THE Mi
M*
13 i 1 1 Mi Kf-:0> i LAGE ACTIVITY.
1 J U BUT YOU DU NOr KNOW?
IS i
16
A. 1 DON'1 KNOW THAT, NO. 0 NOW, LET ML ASK YOU THIS QUESTION: |r YOU ..
1 7 AM on 1 C 1 AL ul TURNER AND NEWALL WHO RECEIVED THESE M1NUT L .
18 . Ok IMIS S T0' 1 SHEET, AND YOU LOOKED DOWN THIS LIST, THIS V.
:
19 TL L l. 1 OU , W< OLD IT NOT, THAT C C (, FIBER SUPPLIED BY OR A- 1
.1:
II !l THROUGH TURNER AND NEWALL, WAS BEING USED AT THE PLA NTS L 1 20 l! il
1 M T HI 21 l.
!|
22
VARIOUS COLUMNS; WOULDN'T A. YES, IT WOULD.
IT?
:! D
ji 23 i
Q. AND ARE THERE OTHER SHEETS IN YOUR--DURING Y< K
j LMin oymlnt ai 24
turner and newall?
A . YOU MEAN OTHER SHEETS LIKE THIS *> 26
68
1 Q YES .
2
A.
Oh, l VERY Hl'NTH. THIS WAS A REGULAR All/
NT
3 1 1 i lilt Mt IMMLY boa * 11 Ml 00 ICS. 4 Q. AND T HI i WOULD SHOW. AT WHICH PLANTS THE .
5 i I 1,1 w GRADES WERE U^ED?
A . YES, THEY WOULD .
6
7 (} . SO THAT YOU KNEW V R OM LOOKING AT THESE SIN; THAI i l (, MBER AND OTHER F 1 BT P THAT WAS SUPPLIED BY -
8
U HKi'M.H ToRNI R ANl1 ME WALL WAS Bf I NG USED AT THf ' A - T I
\ i ASLI Y AMD MATTISUM PLANTS IN IMF UNITED S T A r f S 10
I
11 11
1?
13
A . THAT 'S R K.HT . Q. THE AMBLEP PLANT? * YE S .
14 0 THE SAlr.T LOUIS PLANT ?
A YES . 15
i 16
Q . THE SANTA CLARA PLANT?
' 17
18
A . YES . Q. SANTA CLARA, CALIFORNIA, R 1 GHT *5
1' 10 |i
1:
A . (NO RESPONSE.)
!j 20 r
i|
Q- LCT'S LOOK AT MM. WHAT'S THE latest ONE we
! HERE, MR. JONES? WELL, LET ME JUST ASK YOU THIS QUEST INI
21 11
'i| YOU KNOW WHAT PLANT SEVEN WAS?
22 I
' 2J
A. I DON'T THINK I DU. I'M SORRY.
0. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT PLANT SEVEN WAS? 2J
A. I DON'T R CMC MBE R THE INDIVIDUAL ONES. 25
Q. OKAY. BUT YOU DO REMEMBER THAT THERE WERE PLANT
IN AMBLER. HILLSBORO, TIXAS? (u
\ AMBLER, S Al N 1 LOUIS, SANTA CLARA.
2 3 J I'
Q- RIVERSIDE ? A . NOT R 1 VIP'. Ill . Wl 1 L , P 1Vf P S1DE IS NOT A n; I, IN KITH.
b I'M Si1*-'0'. US.
6 A. HlLLbL'uPO, THAT'S R IC. U T . ANOTHER ONE If; HI.
7 Q. AND IT'S MLRECCTLY OBVIOUS FROM THESE MON T Hi
8 REPORTS THAT I IBER SUPPLIED UY OP. ARRANGED BY TURNER AND N; w
9 OR I.A.I . WAS BE INN USED IN EACH OF THESE VARIOUS PLANTS '-h
10 MUNI H ll) MON I H?
1 I A. WELL, THIS WOULD SHOW WHICH PLANT IT WAS BE IN
12 WSifi I N . 13 Q. RIGHT. AND ThERL ARE OTHER RECORDS FOR EVERY 1 4 MON I H [HPOUi-HNUT YOUR CAREER THAT WOULD SHOW THE SAME?
15 A. THERE WERE.
16 0. WERE THERE--DID LlP.TA|N-TEED SEND YOU RECORDS
1 7 LISE THIS AI T L P. 1 9 G 2 ?
18 A . NO .
19 MR. BEERS: MAY I HAVE JUST A MOMENT?
THE COURT: YES. MR. BEEPS.
20
(PAUSE . )
21
MR. bLERS: I BLLILVE THAT'S ALL, YOUR HONOR.
22
; 23
THE (.HURT: THANK YOU. MR. MORRIS?
i 24 I-
MR. M-'RRIS: I WANT TO APPROACH THE BENCH JUST A Hit.
I' THIS IS MOT ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE CASE. 2b Il
70
1 '.A D I SLUG ' I i'll WAS MILD OFF
2 THE RECORD A1 THE BENCH.) 3 C PO f. S - T > AM I NA T 1 ON 4 BY MR . Mi >( R | v ;
5j
Q. MR. JONES, I'VE GOT A SERIES OF QUESTIONS TO a;.
6 YOU Ml BE , SIR, AND THE I IP.ST QUESTIONS, OR THE FIRST BUNCH oi I I
7 . QUESTIONS I WANT TO ASK YOU ARE ABOUT THE FIVE EXHIB1TS--AND
I 8 ! I THINK THl.Y'RL EE, HH, KK , LL AND MM.
CAN YOU PICK THOSE
9 j OUT.'
THOSE >Vr E
| ON THE FAt.l .
10
THE ONES WITH SMCETS--THE
INVENTORY
SHEETS
11 A. LL, MM, Kk. THERE WAS ONE MORE; WASN'T THERE?
12 THI l 11U R T ; EE, MM, KK, LL AND MM.
13
T ML WIUIESS:
SURRY ABOUT THIS.
I HAD THESE IN SOv:
14 Ol Ok D I R I.AM NIGHT. I'VE GOT All OF THEM EXCEPT HH . WA | :
16 E . Mil, YES
16 MR . f-'oK P. I S : C. OT IT?
17
THC w1TNESS : ALL RIGHT
1 NOW HAVE HH, KK , LL AND M.*
18
THE COURT:
EE
19 THI Wl THESS : ANP [ E . Y1 S, 1 HAVE THEM.
the COURT: MR . MORRIS?
20
21 Q. ( BY MR . MORR IS ) FIRST OF ALL, TURN TO MM AND SEE WUCTHIR OK NOT YOUR COPY, OR YOUR SHEET, THE LAST SHEET
22
2 J IS L I < I BE I , MM - -ON EXHIBIT MM? 24 A. YES, I T I S . 26 O. COULD 1 SIC YOUR COPY Ol MM JUST A SECOND, '. I
71
! A . THAT'S MM.
2 . NOW, mr, jmmlS, WITH REGARD TO EACH ONE
I 3 f I VI I 'HI Bl ^ THAT Wf'Rf
1Al K I NG ABMU T HE RE - - f L , HH, LI,
4 AH D MM - V.'OUD YOU TELL US 1 H L HATE OF EACH INVENTORY SH,: '
b rou'p' A TAPI IMG WITH l.E, are YdlJ?
A. WELL, I'LL GLT T Ml M IN ORDER SO WE CAN GET '
6
, i I M PROi'lR ORDER.
STARTING WITH LC, THE DATE I S -- T M I S IS '
8 jjfAMOUS NOVEMBER 31ST. IT SAYS NOVEMBER 3 1 , 1 9 3 9-
9 Q. NOVEMBER 31ST OF '39. NOW, BEFORE YOU GO OH
I1 It t l ML WHE 1HER OR NOT to i:
!;
11 1;
1
NO, IT'S
i 12 iii
Q- SO "CCOORRPP."
i; R 1 (jHT > 13
IS NOT
ON THE
NOVEMCCR
'39;
IS T
14 |1
A|-:(HJT 15
A. THIS
YOU UMNDUE. RSTAND, DO YOU, THAT WHEN WE WERE if Si TTERRDDAAYY, I ASKED TO GO TO ONE OF THE LATER
TA lI
BECAUSE THLi HELP BY ADDING NAMES LIKE "CORP." 16 i
IT DOESN'T
| FOLLOW THAT THERE IS NO CORPORATION FIBER IN THIS CASE. 17
I
DON ' T KNOW I HAT. 18
i
19 il
Q.
I understand,
but you recognize CORPORATION
!: 1 1 Pi R , YOU '-.AY, by THE WORD "CORP."?
20 II
I: A. YES, I DO.
21 ']
22
Q. ALL RIGHT . AND WITHOUT THE WORD "CORP.," Y'.
DON'T ENOW WHERE THE FIBER CAME FROM? 23
A. NO, I DON'T, UNLESS--THERE WERE ONE OP T w 24
. WHLRl. I DO I NOW, LIKL S-9-k IS BELL'S. 25
BUT THAT'S fURToi:
72
! i A T I nAPl'f N TO Kin >w 1 mA I . 01 Mt R w l SL , I RE L 'i if. -1
2 T ML COURT: M Yd'i WUUlD MOVE T HE Ml C R OPHONr OMi-
3 I I I 11 l B I 1 .
I TH I N SUMl OF THI'M ARE HAV ING A LITHE I ' :U
4 HI AP. |f.', Yf'1 i , MR . J( if.i S .
6
g.
CeY MR. MORRIS) EOT TO BE CLEAR, THE WOK1
-R:
' UOLS OUT APPEAR Of; THERE?
6
A. NO, IT DOESN'T.
f
I 1 Q. AND WITHOUT THAT WORD, YOU CANNOT STATE THA*
i j ANY Of i - HAND AT THAT TIME, AS YOU INTERPRET THOSE RECORDS, 9
| I ROM A.C.L.; IS THAT RIGHT?
*AS '
10
;
11
II ]
12
i!
13
A. THAT'S RIGHT. Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, LET'S GO TO THE NEXT ONE. A. THIS IS HU, AND THE DATE IS--STOCKS AS U I
MA Y 3 1 , 1 0 N 1
14
IS 1-
Q. 1 GUESS MAY UOLS HAVE 31 DAYS; DuESN ' T IT-'
1 THINE IT DOE S; I'M NOT SURE. AND DOES THE WORD 'CORP .
16
1
1 7 j. APPEAR thfrt ?
A . NO, IT DOESN'T.
18
^
Q. OKAY. AND 1 PRESUME THE SAME IS TRUE, WIT
i THE WORD "CORP
YOU CANNOT DEFINITELY SAY THAT A . C . L .
2 j
i 1 s REPORTLD TO HAVE BEEN ON HAND?
?! '
A. NO, 1 CAN'T SAY THAT. 2?
Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, GO TO THE NEXT ONE, If >*
?J
AND 1 BEL 1 EVl THAT WOULD BE PROBABLY KK. 24
?`>
A . YES, THE NEXT ONE IS K k AND THC DAIi IS1'
I `ju'
UT BER
IP
73
1
IS Hum
1.1 ii ( mi P iHlIKi ECSIOLS JUST 1 Ml
1 IS I HI K I - -
3 4 'j S I (>'. >
I ha 7 ' S / M .
I'M '/'PRY, YOU MEAN PAW M ` ' l
5: ] IM
6
Q.
NO.
I Ml ant, IS THERE: A date LIKE- -WOULD That
1 HI INN oi THE MUId H .
IS THAT WHAT THAT WOULD BE? D"
l| KNOW.' 7
f
B >l
A.
!!
] CLR T A IN. 9
I SHOULD THINK IT I'ROBAPlC, BUT I DON'T KNOW r
ii 10 |!
Q. NOW. ON THAT--
11
I:
il THESE 1?
A . NO, URl> I NAP I L Y THINUS ARE COUNTED AND
THLRE WOULD BE a DATE ON WH|( H IT WOULD PROEABLY EE THE END Ul
;i T ML Month. 13
g. ON THAT ONE, I THINK THC WORD "CORP." DOES AM: AH
14
A. YES, ITUOIS. lb
Q. OKAY. LET'S GO TO THE NEXT ONE. 16
A. THE NEXT ONC IS LL, AND THE DATE OF THAT IS 17
NOVEMBER 1 9 N t, . IB
19 Q. AND DOES THE WORD "CORP." APPEAR THERE?
20
21 i.
Lit 22 I.
r i. 23
24
D A 11 2b
A. THE WORD "CORP." DOES APPEAR THERE, YES.
Q. AND I THINK THE LAST ONE IS MM; IS THAT R|
A . HUM?
Q. THE LAST ONE IS MM, THE LAST OF THESE FIVE0
A . THE LAST ONE IS MM; THAT'S THE LAST. AND ThA' IS AIR I I 1 9*4 7 .
0 AND DOES THE WORD "CORP." APPEAR THLP[?
7A
1 A. AMD THL WORD "CURP." APPEARS THERE .
2 12. OKAY . NOW, IN RELATION TO THOSE FIVE EXHIM' 3 Iti.M Wl ' P|. 1 Ai.KINC, A |10U T - -1 E AND THE OTHER FOUR THAT 4 v-l 'RL I Al K | fit. A BOU T - - T HL LAW MATERIAL REPORT ON THE [;A( ` b i A1.11 LN: wt THOSE, I WANT Tt) FIND OUT, MR. JONES, WlAl i.
6 Al'imr THAT AM; HOW THAT REPORT CAME TO YOUR HANDS. IT'S
7
:! UNDERSTAND I NN M
THAT
YOU
ARE
WHAT?
AN OFFICER OF TURNER a;.,
8 Ni wAti , lAN'r that rk.ht--nr wi ri
9
YES.
I WAS the SECRETARY; THE TERM " -\
10 . : A l 1 m III ART wl TH US.
1 1 L . ALL RIGHT. AND YOU WERE THE SECRETARY.
1? THE d! PAPER S MA I LCD TO YOU ?
13 / . YE.S, Till Y Wl KI MA I i LI' TO ML .
14 AND DID T--IY I.OML 1 LuM KLASBEY AND MAT ' T S'1*. '
1b . T [ s , T HE Y 1 ' I 1- .
16 0 . AND WL'RL TALKING ABOUT, AG A I f,, ALL M7L O'-
17 i
18 :
ImsL l-illblTb, i IN'. IN ' N 7 . I
THE MRST ONE BEING IN '39 AND THE LAST one BELlIVi: IT WAS. pi; YOU KNOW THE. NAME Or To.
19 1 Pi R SON AT KIA.13LY AND M'UTISON WHO GATHIRED THIS MATERIAL T"A''S
i;
!: I N THL M POR T > 20 \
jj
21
A. WELL, CAN I JUST PUT WHAT I SAID, LAST QUESTION,
' RIGHT? 01 COURSE, ALl THLSL ARE L'LFORE THE T 1 ML THAT I WAS
22
c
j; SLLRLTARY. 23
WHEN YOU WIRE ASKING ML ABOUT THE PROCEDURE IN
mlNI KAi. TERMS. THAT'S WHAT I WAS SPEAKING OF. 24
NOW, I DC r, ' T . ;,,)v
will I LOMi IlLU IoLSL PAR I lull Ak RETURNS, UP TO 1 <J 4 / . 2b
7S
1 U YOU DO not know who that was?
2,
A . NO .
3
I
Q. WELL, DO YOU KNOW, If; THT ORDINARY COUPSL cl t
i . HUMNISS, TH[ NAME Of T HC PERSON THAT COMPILES THESE REPORT
Af
I; il 6 !'
K .M. EVl r. AFTER Yi"j f AMI. TO TUPNER AND NEWALL? A. WELL, THERE WAS A PERIOD IN WHICH I
KNEW
THE
7 PER SON WHO DID COMPILE THEM.
8: I
9 .;
<2. AND WHAT PLRIOD WAS THAT? A. J SUPPOSE IT WOULD PROBABLY BE THE LATE 'S 0'5
! AND THROUGH THE '60'S, WHERE NO DOUBT THIS PARTICULAR PEPV
10
!i
TOOK ON THAT JOC.
11
i 12 i
q.
okay;
through the late '50's--the late 'sn''
THROUGH THE ' D0 ' S; CORRECT? 13
14 A . YES.
Q.
UP UNTIL THELATE '50'S ANDTHROUGH
THE
15
DID YOU KNOW THE PERSON THAT GATHERED THAT MATERIAL? 16
A. NO, I DIDN'T. 17
Q. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU KNOW THE WAY IN WHICH 7i 18
j. REPORT WAS PUT TOGETHER AT K . M. 19
A. NO, THAT WAS OUTSIDE MY KNOWLEDGE.
20
Q. THAT WAS OUTSIDE YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
21
A. YES. 2?
0. ALL YOU RCALLY KNOW, THEN, I T AK T IT, MP . . 23
IS THAT HLiuRi: YOU STARTLD, IN YOUR FILES RESIDED PtVE-'; 24
THCSf RIPOR1S, T Hf MINUTES WITH THESE REPORTS, THE CORPORAi 25
7G
MllUJilS, WI IH THE S( KLPUKTS ATTACHED TO THEM; IS THAT FI'-,'
A . THAT'S R I AH T .
q . YOU H'.Vf NO KNOWLf DOE OF WHAT WAS GO I fIN <;N - HOW
IHMSf SH[ [ IS WERE MAUL ui', OP. ANYTHIN!, AS TO THEIR L X I S ? ? I
t, L X C t PI T Ml i OIL) EXI'.r IN YOUR I IIES; IS THAT CORRECT?
A. THAT 'S RIGHT .
' Q. OKAY. NOT, BUT--
i
A. BUT YOU UNDERSTAND, THEY WERE COLLECTED FOP r.
PURPOSE, AND THAT PURPOSE WAS WELL KNOWN TO ME.
g. ALL RIGHT. NOW, I WANTED TO ASK TOO, THUJ'-'
I'M SI'LAKINO ONLY ()l THE SHEETS ON THE EACK, NOT THE CO-' -ATT
11
-MIliUTlS, TOU SEE. all PIGHT? NuW, WHAT USE DID
T G N MAKE WITH The INVENTORY SHEETS? 13
A.
TEN ITSELI MADE PRACTICALLY t.O USE OF lr,
HLE T
1J
i mat I i r.i iv. mi . is
Q. all RIGHT. SO, If, FACT, FROM T & N'S PC I N' 1G
VIEW, OR FROM TURNER AND NEWALL'S POINT OF VIEW, THOSE S' 17,
TS
' AMI TO YO'J NR YOUR PPIDLCESSOP. AND RESIDED IN A FILE < ! 18
, L R VI 11 NO Rt ALLY ACTIVE PURPOSE; ISN'T THAT f U R M < TV 1"
A. THIS PARTICULAR SHEET. YOU nAvt TO ONl'lr :o
I THAT THL MINUTES OF THE BOARD MEETING WERE ONE OF OUR I I ' .IV I ?!
| WAYS OF DISCOVERING WHAT WAS GOING ON IN A COMPANY IN v.h; H WL 22
HAD A FINANLIAL INTEREST. ?J
q.
I UNDERSTAND THAT.
1 UNDERSTAND. EUT !'
24
I AL . l r;t. about-?s
77
A. AND l USED lHLK EVERY MONTH. I 2 IT WAs ONI OF MY JOf> S.
I HAD 1U `-'I
1 HEM.
3 Q. YES, SIR. YOU'Rt lAlKINN ABOUT THL I'H/Of <1 HINDUS, THl REPORTS, NOT THE INVENTORY SHEETS?
5 i
A. WELL, THE INVENTORY SHEET WAS ATTACH! D !
i| MI NU I t. s BLCAUSE IT WAS ONt OF T H[ DOCUMENTS BE F OK L Thi
6
3
7 |i EACH MONTH; THE BOARD HAD TO LOOK AT IT.
IT'S NOT
i
' 11 I S A' SNC | A T| I) IN ANY WAY 1 ROM Till' MINUTES. e
-
<2. ALL RIOHT. BUT Till Y DIDN'T USE IT. I II 9
A. I'M S UR L KFASBEY AND MAI T I SON USLD U.
10
11 m
Q. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT KEASGEY AND MATT IS! N.
I'M TALKING ABOUT TEN, WHERE YOU WERE. DID THEY USE : ?
12
L'IDN'1 YOU TESTIFY, SIR, YESTERDAY AND JUST NOW THAT Th: 13
INVI.MORY SHEET WAS PUT IN A FILE AND NOT USED? 14
15 I
A.
WELL, I PUT MY COPY If; TmE FILE AND DIDN'T
O.
IT. 16
p
HUT WITHIN THE OFFICE,. OF COURSE, IT WAS A VERY CLCAr
INDICATION uf keaseey and matt ISON'S needs,
it was of
17
GREAT INTEREST TO T.A.F., WHO KLRE RESPONSIBLE FOR MEET If.., THOS 18
NL EDS . 19
Q. I THOUGHT THAT TEN REALLY DIDN'T HAVE THAT
20
MUCH TO DO WITH MEETING THE NEEDS. I THOUGHT THAT WAS Win
21
ANOTHER ORGANIZATION?
22
A. T .A.F . 23
Q. YES. 24
A. 25
PURPOSE.
YES, THIS IS WHAT I WAS SAYING. IT WAS T .A. 1 . 'S
78
1
Q.
I'M NOT
TALKING ABOUT f.A.f. WE'RE (.'JIN'.'
2
i/.L'- ABOUT l.A.F. IN J'.|C-T A PIT.
I'M TAKING AEO'1', N'..
3 TURNER AND NEWALL.
4 A. YES.
5 Q. TURNER AND NEWALL MADE NO USE OF THOSE SHI' i
ISN'T THAT RIGHT?
6
7 A. THAT'S RIGHT.
Q. AND YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT AN ORGAN I :AT Ir':
8
CALLED T.A.F., OR TURNER ASBESTOS FIBERS; IS THAT P|f,H' : 9
A. THAT'S RI GUT .
10
Q. NOW, THE QUESTION I HAVE FOR YOU, Mc . JOM ,
11
THE RECORDS THAT WE'RE SEEING, OR THE COPIES THAT WE'Ri "
12
HERE IN COURT TODAY, ARE THOSE T.A.F. RECORDS OR ARE T"- 13
14 TEN PECORDS?
A . THEY ARE T C N RECORDS. 15
Q. SO WE HAVE NOT SEEN THE T.A.F . RECORDS; 16
WHATEVER T .A.F. GOT, WE HAVE NOT SEEN HERE ; HAVE WE? 17
A . NO, YOU HAVEN'T 18
Q- ALL RIGHT. SO, WHAT WE HAVE SEEN am; Tl 19
RECORDS AND THE TEN RECORDS ARE WHAT RESIDES IN THE l 1 i ' AN I
20
APE NOT USED; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
21
A. YOU ASKED ME THIS PARTICULAR RECORD.
22
Q. YES, INVENTORY RECORDS. 23
A. THE OTHER ONES, OF COURSE, WERE OF INTER' a' 'i mi24
BUT I DIDN'T MAKE ANY USE OF THIS PARTICULAR ONE. 25
79
1
Q.
ALL RIGHT.
THAT'S exactly WHAT I'm iry.N-
2 ``r. "'T, is w 11 r Tin p nf mot t r, n and you made am- us1
3 IMVLMIHry SHEET?
4 A. THE ANSWER IS NO, WE DIDN'T.
5
Q.
ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOUWERE, AT
THE SAMEi |". ..mi;-,
6 TO GET ON TO THIS OTHEP SUBJECT--YOU , AT THE SAME T I Mi , 7 AN OFFICER -- IF SECRETARY, I GUESS, IS THE RIGHT w^.RD - - f
8 ANOTHER ORGANIZATION CALLED T.A.F.; IS THAT RIGHT?
9 A. THAT IS RIGHT.
10
Q.
ALL RIGHT. NOW, T.A.F., AS IUN'DL R S T OOD
.'! y-'.j
SAID YESTERDAY, WAS INTERESTED IN THAT INVENTORY S HE E1 , ' l 'y
11
OF IT, A SEPARATE COPY FROM WHAT TEN HAD; ISN'T THAI
12
-[it?
A. THAT IS CORRECT. 13
14 Q. AND BECAUSE THEY WERE INTERESTED IN S'JF': .
FIBER; ISN'T THAT CORRECT? 15
A. THAT 'S CORPE CT . 16
Q. ALL RIGHT. RUT l WANT TO JUST ASK YOU >' 17
TEN RECORDS NOW, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE'VE GOT HERE. 18
THAT CORRECT, MR. JONES? 19
A. THAT'S CORRECT .
20
Q. ALL RIGHT. HAVE YOU PROVIDED ANYPCD' V.;
21
COPIES OF T.A.F. RECORDS, BY THE WAY, THAT YOU KNOW AI
22
THIS LAWSUIT? 23
A . NO . i1 DON'T KNOW THAT - - 1 AM NOT AWARE 24
Q. OKAY . SO FAR AS YOU ' RE ALL CONC E f i ; ,
25
u
80
|i i:
1 I, STILL IN LNGI AND SOMf V.'Mt P E ; IS THAT RIGHT?
2 !; pf ' HRDS :
IF T HP R f A - '
3 I ij
4 ||
A. THAT'S PIGHT. Q. NOW, MR. JONES, LET ME ASK YOU A QUEST | ON :
5 SAID THAT YOU RECOGNIZED Mr CLIENT BY VIRTUE OF THE WORD
6 "CORP.," C-O-R-P?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. IS THIS JUST SOMETHING YOU PICKED UP IN Th:
jj or your BUSINESS as secretary of THE TURNER AND NEWALL, 9
I
10 IT SOMETHING THAT YOU'VE COME TO KNOW IN A SPECIAL WA> k j A. NO, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT ONE COMES TO if.'.
11
| IN THE OR DI NARY COURSE OF EVENTS.
YOU SEE THE V;OR[i "(.ct-
12
13 ' ON 1 HE LIST AT REGULAP TIMES AND I SUPPOSE AT SOME - IN! , I
14 HAUL ASKED WHO THEY WERE AND FOUND OUT. BUT ALL T t: :
15
AP. L
II
FAMILIAR
TO
ME
THAT
wE
JUST
LOOKED
AT.
!j Q. WELL, YOU'RE IN THE ASBESTOS BUSINESS, SO i
16 ii
17 hSPEAK, AND I GUESS THAT IS THE BUSINESS OF TURNER AND Ni w
i IS THE ASBESTOS BUSINESS; CAN WE SAY THAT? 18
19 A. AMONG OTHER THINGS, YES.
Q. SO, YOU'RE IN THE ASBCSTOS BUSINESS. SO I
20
PRESUME THAT YOU BECAME FAMILIAR WITH THE NAMES OF DJFFI.F
21
COMPANIES THAT WORK IN ASBESTOS; IS THAT RIGHT?
22
23 I
24
A. YES, THAT'S RIGHT. Q. I PRESUME--WELL, LET ME ASK YOU: DID YO'J !
HEAR OF THE ASBESTOS CORPORATION OF AMERICA; IS THAT ON!. 25
1 1 A fAMIl UR TO YOU ? i;
A. WELL, THE ASiTSTOS CORPORATION, AS I t-i1':-
2
3 WAS A CANADIAN COMPANY. AM I WRONG ABOUT THAT?
r 4 li
Q. I'M JUST ASK-. INC, YOU IF YOU REMEMBER THAT f;
j DO YOU HAVE ANY RECOLLECTION OF THE NAME ASBESTOS CC^U5
I
: OF AMERICA?
6
A. NO, 1 DON'T. 7
Q. DO YOU HAVE A RECOLLECTION OF THE NAME AS?
8
' LIMITED? 9
;l A.
10
NO, I DON'T THINK I EVER CAME ACROSS Thai
EITHER .
11
Q. ISN'T IT A FACT, MR. JONES, THAT IN RE7IL..
12
| these records, isn't it a fact that you were told 13
t
MEANT asecstos CORPORATION limited, in getting RE a; ' u
THIS LAWSU1r? 15 I
J A. NO,
THAT'S NOT
TRUE.
I'VE KNOWN THAT f-,R
16 i
17 I
Q. DO YOU HAVE A RECOLLECTION ALL THE WAY FA
1 9 5 9 , OR TO 1 94 7 , AS TO WHAT THE WORD ''CORP." STO'D F C t 18
THOSE RECORDS? 19
A. WELL, I KNEW WHAT IT STOOD FOR AT THE TIN!
20
WAS THERE, AND 1 MAKE THE ASSUMPTION THAT THAT'S WHAT II
21
FOR BEFORE THE TIME THAT I WAS THERE.
22
Q. AND YOU'VC HAD NOBODY TELL YOU THAT OR R E; 23
YOUR RECOLLECTION. THIS IS ALL FRESH IN YOUR MEMORY; I, 24
R1GHT? 25 I
82
, A. NO. lilt ASPLSTOS CORPORATION, IT I'VL GO: '*
M 2 IMMH, WAS A NEIGHBnf Ot BELL'S, AND HAS BEEN WELL KNOW. ' -T
I:
3 MR Y( AP. S .
i
4 jl
Q.
IT'S nr UNDERSTANDING THAT ASBESTOS C OR PC (-' A ' | ;-j
5 : LIMITED IS A NEIGHBOR 01 BELLS?
6 A. YES . KELL, 1 DIDN'T REALIZE THAT IT PROBA
11
7 1 1 WAS AN AMERICAN COMPANY AND NOT A CANADIAN ONE. 1
i
e
Q. DID THLSE INVENTORY SHEETS, THE RAW MAT E R1
i 9 i inventory SHEETS, SERVE ANY PURPOSE TO T & N, MOT T.A.F.
1
10 :/ CUT T G N? i
A . NO , TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, THEY D1DN
11
! i?
0 ALL RIGHT.
13 r
A . COULD 1 ADD THAT A COPY OF THESE MINUTES v.
AlSU `..ENT, not only TO ML, BUT TO THE DIRECTOR WHO WAS
l AW > PJ'- TIME TO TIME OF KCASOEY AND MAT T I SON . AND i'" IS
:
Ajle IO SAt WHAT USE HE MADE OF THEM. IN
0. BUT YOU AKL ABLE TO SAY WHAT USE YOj Aril ' 17
1 AROUND YOU MADE OF THEM? 18 ;
10 I):
l
! 20 ;
i
21 1
A. THAT ' S RIGHT, 1 AM. Q. ALL R1GHT. NOW--
THE COURT: JUST A MOMENT. SEE IF YOU CAN ADJUST This,
| PLEASE, BAILIFF.
22 I
(THE MICROPHONE WAS ADJUSTED.) 23
j, 24 j.
Q. (BY MR. MORRIS) DO YOU KNOW, OF YOUR OWN
1 KNOWlEDGE AS AN EMPLOYEE OF T G N, WHY THE RAW MATERIALS PCPOR 25
85
I w <- I M/.f.li' TO THl I I, N Pi (JiPOS THAT WERE SENT h !>*'.
AM- M.A t I I
DO Yd!' fi-V i'f YOUP OWN K HOWL L OGC KHi T HI . V.' '
3 *' 1 1 1 . i I ' J A.
YES.
i!!Y WIPE. ATTACHED PECAU5E THEY v: L RE t * J- :
5 Of T 1 -k i ( "RDS OF T Mi `It T I llu .
6 0 . AND HU V. DO YOU KNOW THAT, SIR?
7 A. WELL, IP I HAD A COPY, WHICH I'M SURE WL' HA At
8 I'Rl.SLNT, 01 A SET OF MINUTES, YOU WOULD SEE THAT NOT ONLY DU
9 EACH MINUTE HAVE A SERIAL NUMBER, BUT IT ALSO HAD Al; AGENDA
10 N U l L R ATTAINED TO I T . AND IF YOU'LL LOOK AT THESE L'OCUUN:
1 1 Thai V.'L'VL L.lLM LOOKING AT, YOU'LL SEE THAT THEY ALL EEA~ 1
A > ' .' r.UMPi- "2CD23," SO >UU CAN LINK THEM UP.
12
13 Q . OKAY .
I J A. AND IT WAS, '0 COURSE, VITAL THAT ANY **. I NU ' :
1 b I A : AM: - uSS SHALL!' P t A C CV-f, AN 1 E D BY THE DOCUME NT T II li tk-,. t' T HE R W I SI , IT MIGHT WELL BE MEANINGLESS.
lu (. . ALL RIGHT . NOW, I WANT TO THEN GO TO T.-MS'
17
18 L/Mli IIS WHIM, ACCORD INI'- TO MY NOTES, WERE LISTED AS
,' L" 1 HRi lU'.H IRII'LC-A, WHICH I THINK, AGAIN, ARE ALL MINUTES, 19
ARE THEY HOT, OF KEASRCY AMD MATT I SON. ACCORDING TO THE M '
20
L/HIMTS MUD BY TUP NCR AND NE WALL, I BELIEVE THESE ARE A LI 21 I
A. I SEEM TO RUN OUT AT "Q. "
22
-
0 . ' Q '? 23
A. YES. MAYBE--IF YOU'LL FORGIVE ME FOR A MOM. NT. 2J
I'LL .JUST HUNT THROUGH THEM. 29
3L
'M IS; (i 1 HA T No T all Ql THL I / TO T mi i 1. L R i , SO WL MAY NUT HA VI. 1
ir THEY'VE f t l rj PECEIVED I N EVIDENCE, COUNSEL
TVS "Ay! 1 ml R! Sl'UNS I B I l M Y 10 SEE THE CLIP K HAS THEN. Thl
, ; ARC Hi a RLS'HNSIUILITY Af t f R THAT. =I
MR. SMUCMALE : ARE WE TALKING ABOUT--
, i; 7 |I
THL (HURT:
:l ,, ' WL. TALKIN', AVOUT?
are we talking about double-Q?
or what a
NR.
R I s : WL'RL TALKING ABOUT, YOUR HONOR,
YfSl'i-i'AY A whole HANDFUL OF EXHIBITS WEPT DELIVERED TO THIS
10 i
1 WMU "S At.D I HAVE Them DOWN AS BEGINNING WITH "2" and GOT." 11.
'All Til V.'Ay THROUGH TRIPLE-A. 1?
AND ON ThE--
'3 ,1
The lO'JRT:
! r R I HL l -A ? 14 '
ThRO'JNH THE DOUBLE LETTERS and then Of, T
MR. MORRIS: AND 1HEY ARE LISTED ON THE PRETRIAL-15
The COURT: The (i.CRK IS It: AGREEMENT WITH YOU, 16
: BUT N, * L HAS NUT RECEIV'D THEM ALL. 17
MR. KHUEMAKf : Y"U DON ' T HAVE THEM? THEY WERE P. E C: l. 18
I NT i ; V I Di N( -. . Vi
i
20 :
THI WITNESS:
I HAVE The DOUBLE-A ONES HERE AND I
'REMEMBER THOSE.
21 j
I HAD THEM YCSTLRDAY. MAYBE IT'S IN THIS L
j SUMi: WHERE .
22 1
MR. MORRIS: MArPt WE CAN .GET BY WITHOUT THEM. LET''
Si; T W i C A'. . 24
T Hi. t.MHRT: LUT the COURT TAKES AN INTEREST WITH T`: 20
I
, >!
I7i(! I`M I'. THt COL"-'7 :
! " : I Pi
l I . ; i I > t. Il ! i , LC 1 TI if. ( U> '
3 ! ' 6 Th-ough V.liM t L. T T f P IIAVL WL RLCliVfD T ML M?
5 "I" THROUGH "u" KLPE RECEIVED INCLUSIVE; T R i P L [ -
AND 1 >' I ' I. I - 1 Will PICE I V i. I' ; DOUBLE-E --Z" THROUGH TRIPLE-A, T G
/ WERE /DM IT I i [i, BUT NOT RECEIVED. 7
' B
I
v; I T f; L 9
MR. ' Hi > I MAR I. ; wr DIDN'T TAKE THEM BACK FROM THE T! .l|PDAr, SO I DON'T KNOW THERE THEY ARE.
1 HE ' o U R T : V. ELL , SHE HAS ALL THAT WC RECEIVED, BUT
10
S No 1 PEL IE VI r ha t SHE p.el E1VLD THEM ALL.
11
Th'. v: l Tf.T S5 :
1 ' VE GOT C t SINGLE-Z NOW.
12
MR. i M'Rp | s :
LET'S PO T H; list wc can with woat we'-.e
13
lJ
MR . o'. ['MAKE :
r c .Sr M[ , YOU5 HONOR.
WE HAVE AO '
15
COPY vi Th1
10
EYHIFITS II COUNSEL WOULD LIKE Them.
THI (CURT: THLY should BE DELIVERED TO THE CLERK A * 17
0 NCI , I'LL > '. . 18
YOU GO AMI AO, MR. MORRIS, IF W'C DON'T DISRUPT ' 19
^
20
MR. MORRIS: OKAY.
g. (BY MR. MORRIS) MR. JONES, IF I'M RIGHT IN
j21 LOOKING AT Till PRETRIAL COMPLIANCE HERE, DO YOU HAVE "Z" IN
22
HAND there? 2j
A. r-j
g. 25
I HAV[ . is that--v.ii/.t is that, sir, minute number '>.
S A Y s HERE.'
EG
I iLS.
1 1 WHA T IS I h.. !
n
0(1 YCrj
At, THT S IGTANlL OF THE N 1NU 1 l ?
j : Ji ) , V. HA 1 IS 1 T ?
51
... IT'S A U'CT OF THE MINUTES. IT'S A COTY OF
G ' ham u1 r T HI
1 MUTES O' A MEET 1 IK, OF KIASEEY AND MATT 1 SON.
|I
' i1
1
THE COURT: PARDON ME, NOW. THERE WE ARE . "Z'' IS IN
8 ! r 1 LI , l',U 1 IT' S NEVER i:u r; NT L 1 V F R F D FORMALLY TO the CLERK .
9 i 1,0 A H t AD, CUT 1 JUST - - CfiUf :SCL, WHEN WE COMPLETE THIS W1TNE
1
1 1 1 1 W A -; i YOU TO PLEAS! (.Hi LK. AND BE SURE THAT ALL those that
11 HAVE p'.[ ` f, R.: ' 1 IVED HA Vi Pi EN DELIVERED TO THE CLERK. !
12 /.ILL A>: 1P L Y T ' -'DUGHOUT T
TRIAL.
1 13
MR .
.'PIS: (t K A / .
AND
lj
1
' j p t :
s '1 y R y , R. MOP PIS.
i<j
. 1" ; s i s :
tma i s all f. i ght .
,G Q. CBY MR. .** i. Ry I S) AND Them, CAN YOU LOOK AT Th!
,7 j EXHIBITS Tl'.'.l YOU DU 11A v [ TMLRC, BEGINNING W|Th"z;' AMD THEM
18 ; STARTING WIT'' DOUBLE-A AMD GOING ALL THE WAY THROUGH TO
i
,o ! DOIJC.I | I I
?0 I DO HAVE
. ..f.p IF YOU Dull ' T AMD TLIL US WHETHER
HAVE THEM ALL, OR MOT, EXCEPT
LOOK AT WHAT You FOR THOSE FIVE
i' THAT WL'VE A|PEADY TALKED ABOUT, THERE ARE INVENTORY SHEETS
,, AIIA'hld lu I HE REST 01 THIN. THE REST OF THE MINUTES?
23 ?J ' 21
r \ , THERE APT N'T.
0 . there APE MOT ?
A.
NO, T!HE `'E ARE NOT .
1 KNOW THAT THERE APE
87
1 SOME o` 1 M L f`` . DO YOU Wl Vi KL To 1,0 T HROlMiH AfiD TELL YOU wni l
li
? UHLS' r (;P t f. AMPL, I HAV: AA I f: FRONT OF ME, AND THERE IS fir
3 I f.VL M 1 'R Y SHUT Of. 1 Mi I'.Ait (il THAT.
4 i.'. HAVE YOU MAO A CHANCE TO LOOK AT THOSE TO SEC
WHCTH'F OR Nor ON ANY OF 1H[K, CxCCPT THE FIVE THAT WE HAVE
I TAIKLO A Tot IT - -THAT WOULD F F EF AfiD HH AND KK AND LL AND MM --
i ; WHCTm! R. Atjy iy Th! " HAVE If.VENTORY SHEETS ATTACHED RESIDES
T HOSL M VC
A. WEIL, I HAVE HAD At! OPPORTUNITY OF LOOKING AT
Hi t * i r s 1 > R ! A : LY C ' Ml A RE T I-LM WITH THE ORIGINALS, BUT I CAN'T
1111
l f** L * ` : : - t ! 1 T M!' j 1 ARE Ti-l ONLY ONES
WOULD YOU LIKE ML T0
i : slip through and pi sure?
13 Q. IF You WOOL. LIKE TO AND IF WE COULD TAKE 1 >'E
) J 1 1 ' i
'oi
;r t :
sore .
1 :y
r `,, 1C
1 7 "L"- - uOUFL L
1
IB 0
A.
IR
I NL S s : Thl R S fiOtiE .Of, "A," NONE ON " E , " ; , That IS--I.hR "D . " TmLRC was ONE ON ''C , " f.'OT
CBY M.R . MOF-IS) HOW ABuUT "F"? WAS THERE ON I Dot. ' T think I HAVE AN "F . "
THL '
20
?l 1
T HE W
DOUBLE - a TO
22
ON " u"; THLP 23
, 1 T-- AND "l"24
NOT Ot. "J," 26
N PT or.
88
1 l "" I ' , Mil ON i<' ' 11 l r P , 1.1)1 oN DOUBLE S, HOT OH DOUBLE -T , -> , I :,. ' 'Ml 1 11 , N T ON L'i ill -V, MOl nil [lOUI'l.E-W, NOT ON
3 OMNI U - , M' ' 1 N ' M-L E - Y
AMD THE LAST 'i,M IS TRIPLE-A, '
4 THERE 1 ? NOT "NF ON THAT.
5 n . ((NT MR. MORRIS) 1 HAD A "ZDOUELE-Z. THERE
ONE l. 1 > t r o i 'N MERE.
6
7 | A . HO .
DO Y'- JU HAVC A DOUELE-Z?
8
MR .
>k | s : IS Thi RL A DOUP.lC-Z?
9 MR . ^ .hocman E: (SHOOK His HEAD IN THE NEGATIVE.)
i H i OR T : THC RE 1? NO DOUBlE-Z. ALL RIGHT.
10
1 TAK! 1 1 i1
IS--. i'JN T TOR THE P!.CORD CLAR IM CAT ION, WC HAVE DEALT
i : Tm N T Mi DOUBLE LETTER ALPHA JET, EXCEPT TWO LETTEPS
i.. . , , r * 1 1 .-IN . i i-j," |T- L'i' .o 1 DON'T Ri CALL THE OTHER -- AND
14 i '1, 'i _
1 1 1 H 1 R 1 PL I _ >
15 .
*r
orris:
THA T 1 S RIGHT.
INI. ' ' i'jR T :
II. S"f ; CASES, WE SIMPLY SAID "6" OR "C,
1G
\.; ; ': > i 1/ i 18
'Ll LI TTI.PT.
Thank you .
far kk . iv - -IS) ISN'T THAT CORRECT, MR. L1 ": f.
i M,< i i . t. A, ! i.ASE , Yl;1J V.'i 1r'
LOOKING AT A DC'UI LE LETTER :.>U
THf f 1 R -i T "7 'AND THE IASI 1R1PLE-A?
?0 1
A . T HAT IS CORRECT.
?1
?? i
0- NOW, 1 I'll ITVE YOU TESTIFIED, MR. JONES, THA'
: | HVLl. ;y 23
Kt L L T S WERE AT T A (_ HE D EACH MONTH WHEN THOSE THING?
i c a t' t i, i yi*1 >; is that rinut ?
?S .
A. YL S , THAT 's R 1GHT .
89
I 0. l><' YOU KNOW V.HY lutSL VIL R E PRODUCED IN COURT 7 .-. I I h ! TUI I N.'i NTOPY SUITS MTACMLI'.'
7 . N' , I PON ' T .
4.
0.
I
T H t t> I W ` - I
I Ml' I IT I RUt THAT THESE EXHIBITS--! HAVE T HA ' N 1 1 -SEVEN . LUT THERE IS LESS THAN THAT; MAlHI
TWIN! i-' IV - >' )Mf lull!' LIKE Tl'AT--ISN'T IT TRUE THAT EACH
7 ONE Ul THIS! l X' 11 B I T S ARE A RIPURT OR THE BOARD MEETING OF
8 K . M . ; I S N ' I THAT CORRECT? 9 ' A. S' Mr OF Till r ARE Hlf.UTLS.
FOR EXAMPLE, THE 1 i
10 , ONE h A '!!' J'[ , BUT THi r ARE ALL EITHER H.lt.UTES OR A N N L > E T -
11 COPIED OF / NN: ,t D Ri.POR T S .
g.
12 1.1 oi..'. i iMo
a,.l rk.mt.
and IF YOUR COPIES ARE LIKE the CO
; { r , i.vi r. all oi
the rekcr r s--e' en all of the
! IN
A- . \ [ THIRL; am They.-' LIKE WC BEGIN ON PAG; ' I .
If. Uj
10 17
If A. i, .
L S , PA(,E NINE If, OThERS ; ISN'T THAT COR- EOT OH, YES, That'S CORRECT. THEY'RE ALL EXTRAC'P '') WIlAT HAS I 0ME INTO COURT HERE IS ONLY A P -
13 -l
: VI
' THE M ll.Uf l S . AS WILL AS THE INVENTORY Ol'.T .
)A i' i.1 : ; ha i i ,n:i cr?
A. WEIL, THAT'S RIGHT, AS FAR AS THESE DOCUMENTS At `
?0
CONCERNED.
21
Q. NOVI, DID YOU HELP PPEPARE THESE MATERIALS FOR
22
THIS i A5L 23
HID YUU HELP PUT THOSE EXHIBITS TOGETHER?
A. WELL, TO THE EXTENT THAT I HAVE LOOKED AT THI 24
OKU,INAL Mil.NILS IN ORDER TO SEE THAT THESE ARE, IN FACT, 25
90
' V.I ; \HI -1 .11 , WH/VT UII I luBPOR I TO BE, YES.
I
2
1
O. -'LL Pll.i'I . AND V.*"| fi YOU LOOPED AT WHAT: V\R
3 Li/'-ilf A), w.V TH tat. r<Vri ThLKI THAN WHAT HAG rLEN
;
d AS L > M I HI 1 5 Mi P E ?
5 A. OH, YCS.
6 Q. NOW, WL'RL ABOUT READY TO GO ON TO ANOTHER
7 i SULMLCT, MR . JONES
1
AND THAT SUBJECT IS THE SUMMARY TO WHIG
8 ' 1 MALT Si.ML small Up J E c: T ION YESTERDAY , AS 1 RECALL. AND DO
9 l i; 1 t`A . I A ( nl'Y OF That SUMMARY THAT YOU WE PE USING YE SU m; A
10 A . NOT NOW .
11 WHAT DID YOU DO WITH IT ? where can WE GET A L ; i ' R i i. 1 ' !
13 Ml- . I fi r (, Af i : I 11A V L. A C0 f' Y 0 F IT. (THL DOCUMENT WAS G IVEN TO MR . MORRIS.)
MR . f-'.'-l-' P | s : MAY I HAVE IT MARKED?
IS
. I'M I, an: Tim MAY use IT; I'D LIP f TO HAVE IT
:
I ; MR . M'MPIS: I ' L' LIKE TO HAVE IT MARKED JUST ! r
, I 1.
1 I 1 ' '. P U R. P i.) S L : -r THAT WHEN I ASK THE V I T `. I_i Tv
'8
in |.< mi ' r ii, w; 't l know
Thi lmuRT:
you HAVE NO OBJECT I ON, MR . MORGAN? W L 'LL "
20
you : MOTHER i.i'PY.
21
MR . mi.RNAN: NO OBJECTION'.
22
THE COURT: THL COURT HAD COPIES MADE AND DELIVERLC N 23
al l OJNSlL i : S T E R D A Y .
I DON'T KNOW WHCRE THEY ALL WENT.
2'1
MR. MORRIS: l'Vt. NOT MINE, BUT I MADE SOME MARKS ON I 25
I
91
1 Ml
"JR. 3
YOU HA < HA Jl THIS. MR. HORGAN, YOU HA;!
1
'I I
J I !:
. I WOULD DC.Jf '1 11
a IT BL IN'- IN L V I Dt NCE .
5
1 HE 1' JR T ;
1 HAT ' s I.CMfc s later .
6
1 >af;:
TL S , ' 1R .
1 JUST WANT T O WARN HIM.
7
1 Hi M rjkT :
hcv: L'o YOU PROPOSE TO MARK IT, MR. MDR-'|
8 MP . ".ORRIS: YOU C AN MARK IT AN A.C.L. EXHIBIT; MAKE
9 IT 10 1 F YU' ' WAt. 1 .
10 1 1 Hl NOCL'M: NT V.1 A S MARK. LD AS AN EXHIBIT.)
11 i i . Cry .HP. McR : 1 S ) MR . JONE S , I'M GOING TO GIVE
A CO : ! o lor S J MM ARY T H A T YOU HAD YESTERDAY. Af.D F C P. -- l?
13 S T R I < I 1 Y mo: RECORD I'1J ^ 1'') , i. 5, SO T MAI V.'HLN WE TALK. ADOUT Tni
1 J IMINs. W* 'll HAVf. SOME .-.'AY TO IDENTITY IT, V/E HAVE CALLED T-
A . c . L . I Mi I I M 10. YOU <. *. r; SL C THAT WRITTEN Of. THERE? 15
A . YES. 16
o . NOW, FOR T Hi; RCLORD, WOULD YOU TELL US WHAT 17
A . c . 1 . I. XH I i: I T 10 IS? 18
A. A.C.L. L>UlLir lo IS A STATEMENT OF THE
10
; PERCENTAGES OT FIF.F.P IN STOCK AT PLANT THREE OF DIFFERENT--.'
?0
I
M CLP I ROM THESE SOURCES; CELL, JOHNS-MANVILLE, CORPORATION
?1
i AND 'HHIRL.
22
THAT'S HOW IT'S DIVIDED. AND IT RUNS THROUGH 1
FOUR `NINTHS OF THE Yr AR 1 95 0 THROUGH TO 1 95 7. 28
Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOU SAID THAT THIS SUMMARY, 24
LYHli'ir iu, A.C.L. iXHli-.IT 10, I S' EXPRESSED IN PERCENTAGES; 25
92
1
>
i r's i i
.
all rii.'M.
n"W, i was under thf i mpr e ss I or.
J
.1
. THAT 11 w''r- A Sif'MAPY OF SOME RECORDS.
l
5 ' I Hi
v
ORDS Somev.'HLRL That EXPRESS IN PERCENTAGES
C ; Th; i tO'J Me w ABOUT?
?! I;
a. mo.
e : |,j t*t 1' CEtlT Af,|. S .
there are mo records which were exppessii
9 Q.
10 1 ]
A.
n ! Civ 11 1 L C D 7
i n f Act, them -- WOULD YOU LIKE ML TO TELL YOU HOW THIS WAS
i: 13 ;
0. 1 MAY W A: j T TO ASK YOU THAT, BUT WE 'LL SEE WHIM l-Ll 1 Ml P| .
14 1
IS
.
P
* -
l'.'PL'S
;
THE SUMMARY- IS NO T ACTUALLY, IS IT?
THEM, A Su'MMAi- '
A. MO, STRICTLY SPlAMMG, IT ISN'T. 'G
i; |
Q. SOME BOD Y HAD TO GO THROUGH A MATHEMATICAL C * L ' A
ON 10 COM: TO THESE Pt RLENTAGLS; DIDN'T THEY? 18
19 i. 20 j
A . THEY Dll'. y. NOW, DO YOU KNOW WHO THAT WAS?
21 .
2? i;
tP 21
25 !
A. 1 DO. Q. WHO WAS IT? A. I CAN'T P.i CULLECT THE NAME OF THE LADY, APAl-1 THE FACT IT WAS NANCY -- 0 . IT WAS A ',| f.RLTARY UP. A PARALEGAL FROM SULli. '
93
AIK' LROMVK.Ll.?
2 A . THAT'S IT.
3 ISN'T TMt YO'JNG LADY SITTING OUT HERE? NO, t>-: ' r.
4 ; NO T Ml Rl . :l
SHt'S NOT HERE.
BUT YOU WOULD RECOGNIZE HERE IK < T-USE
5 i SHL'S A VERY PRETTY YOUNG LADY, AND IF SHE WAS SITTING THL-:.
,! WL ' D ALL KNOW I T . 6I
l 7 THE COURT:
THEY'RE ALL PRETTY UNDER THE LAW TODAY.
0 (BY MR. MORRIS) IS HER FIRST NAME NANCY?
8
ii 9I
A. IT 1 S .
Q. YES. AND SHE IS THE ONE WHO DID ALL OF THIS;
10
ISN'T THAT RIGHT? 1l
12 A . SHE 1 S .
13 Q. AND SHC DID-- AND YOU D 1ID NOT DO IT; DID YOU?
1 4 A . 1 DIDN'T DO 1 T YEAR BY year AS SHE HAD DON! .
g- SHE D 1 D THAT?
10
A . YES, BUT 1 'VE MADE A NUMBER OF CROSS-CHECKS 16
, AN INDIVIDUAL YEAR SO I'M ENT I RELY FAMILIAR WITH WHAT, If, 17
!' TAUT, HAS ELEN DONE . 18 i
19 Q. WAS IT DONE UNDER YOUR D1RECTION?
A.
20
g.
21
A.
22
Q.
23
24
Ir1 D 1 RL CT ION? ll
ii 25
A.
1 DID IT. 1 'M TALK 1NG ABOUT THE GATHERING OF THESE F1 GUP OH, NO, NOT THE GATHERING OF THE FIGURES. FOR THIS SUMMARY, THAT WAS NOT DONE UNDER YOU-
NO.
J
1 9R
1
NUW, YESILKUAr YOU TESTIFIED, MR. JONES,
r
2 , 1 M A 1 lillb V'MMAPY R E F R T S Hi O YOUR RECOLLECTION AND THAT YOU V.; ;
3 Af*,l. I 1 ' 5-`>Y l PQM THIS SUMMARY THAT A.C.L., AMONG OTHERS, WA4-
4 ' ONE O'- I HI. iluGLR SUPPLIERS IN THE PERIOD OF TIME THAT IS II
5
j PURPOSED li
TO
BE
SHCWfi ON
THAT
SUMMARY?
j!
6 i
7
A. THAT S R IGHT . Q. SO THE PURPOSE OF THIS SUMMARY FOR YOUR USE YEST;-
DAY WAS TO REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION; IS THAT RIGHT?
6
| |j 9
,1
A.
1 RECORDS THF 10 !]
NOT THIS SUMMARY PARTICULARLY. THIS SUMMARY END PRODUCT OF A LOT OF PAPERS WHICH I DID LOOK
1
1I I
j 12 I
THROUGH TO REFRESH MY RECOLLECTION. Q. AND YESTERDAY, DIDN'T YOU ASK FOR THIS SUMMARY
S'.
THAT YOU COULD REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION? DON'T YOU 13
14 REMEMBER That?
A.
I DON'T.
I REMEMEER A SUMMARY BEING HANDED T <j
15
ME . 16
j!
17 j1
Q.
SO YOUR TESTIMONY NOW IS THAT YOU DIO NOT NEED ID!
lj SUMMARY TO REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION? 18 il
I 19 I
A. WELL, I NEEDED A SUMMARY TO GET TO --R E ME M e E R w t -
| IT WAS THAT THE PERCENTAGES REPRESENTED. THIS IS A MOVING
20 i ! FIGURE OF PERCENTAGES OVER THE YEARS.
1 HAD SEEN THIS PAPER,
21
OF COURSE, AND IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO REFER TO THE MOVING 2? I,
| PLRCLNTAGES, I NEEDED THIS PAPER TO REFRESH MY RECOLLECT1 (V. . 23
| Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, LET ME ASK YOU ANOTHER GUEST: 24 j!
j; ABOUT THIS SUMMARY, THEN. YOU SAID THAT YOU LOOKED AT SOMi 25
95
I Rf'C'iPOS; I S THAT RIGHT?
2 A . YC S .
3 g. WHEN DID YOU DO THAT?
4 A. yesterday MORNING.
5 I
Q. AND WHCN--AND YOU LOOKED AT THOSE RECORDS
6 '! YF STERDAY MOR N I NG ?
7 A . YES .
8
MK . MOTLEY: excuse me, YOUR HONOR.
i CEL!EVE
i 9 COONM l AND THE JURORS ARE HAVING GREAT DIFFICULTY IN HEAR ; '.
10
THE l!
WITNESS.
I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S THE AMPLIFICATION
('system or HE'S SOFT SPOKEN.
11
I I;
12
Tut WITNESS:
I'LL GET A BIT CLOSER STILL TO THE MI-'
13 THI COURT: JUST A MOMENT. WE'LL CHECK IF IT'S WU-* ''
M 1
ALL 15
THE
IT IS MOST IMPORTANT THE JURY AND Th[ F' E 0D L L . LAWYERS AND THE PEOPLE HEAR YOU. SO PLEASE DO YO,,-
ij MR . JUNE S . 16
j1 17
;i 18 I
Q.
T HANK YOU . I'M SORRY , MR . MORR 1 S . (BY MR. MORRIS) MR. JONES, THOSE RECORDS THAT . Oi.
19 LOOKED AT YESTERDAY MORNING WERE NOT--I TAKE IT WERE SOMETHIN'-
BESIDES THE EXHIBITS THAT ARE LYING THERE IN FRONT OF YOU,
20
INCLUDING THAT EE, HH, LL, KK AND MM?
21
A . YES, SIR.
22
23 Q. YOU LOOKED AT THINGS BESIDES THAT; IS THAT RlUfT
A . YES . 24
25 Q. YOU LOOKLD--D1D YOU LOOK AT lNVENTORY REPOR T S ?
9F
A. WELL, I HAD ALL THE INVENTORY REPORTS.
!
2I
Q. SO, IT IS CORRECT THAT WHAT YOU LOOKED AT AMD
! WHAT YOU RE1 R( SHED YOUR MLMORY FROM WAS RECORDS OTHER THAN 3
I
4 THE L'HIBITS THAT ARE BEFORE YOU IN COURT HERE; IS THAT RIGHT:
5 A. THAT'S RIGhT.
Q. ISN'T IT TRUE THAT WHATEVER RECORDS YOU LOOKED A
6
7 THE AMOUNTS WERE EXPRESSED EITHER IN TONS OR POUNDS OR
e SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
9"
A. I THINK IN TONS THROUGHOUT.
|| Q.
10
|i EXPRESSED
AND THEY WERE IN PERCENTAGES?
NOT
IN ANY CASE,
I TAKE
IT,
11
A. NO, THEY WEREN'T.
12
Q. I TAKE IT THAT YOU WERE NOT EVEN HERE, P R 0 B A i1. . 13
WHEN NANCY MADE UP THIS SUMMARY; 14
,ii
A. THIS SUMMARY? 15
IS THAT CORRECT?
16 Q- YE S .
A . THAT'S RIGHT. 17
Q. THE SUMMARY BEING A.C.L. EXHIBIT 1 0 .
18
DID YOU HAV F ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE MAKING UP 19
OF THE LIST OK EXHIBITS SUBMITTED BY YOUR --WELL, BY YOUR
20
FORMER EMPLOYER, TEN, IN THE PRETRIAL COMPLIANCE? DID YOU
21
HAVE ANY PART IN THAT AS A BARRISTER, AS A LAWYER?
22
A. APART FROM BEING THERE TO PRODUCE IT. I--ALL 23
OF THESE DOCUMENTS, IN FACT, WERE FOUND AND PRODUCED DURING T-- 24
TIME THAT 1 WAS SECRETARY, DESPITE THE FACT THAT I'M 25
97
1 i;im PIMPED AMD. OF COMBSL, I WAS INVOLVED IN THE S E AP. (. H11 ; .
2 A. AND NONE--AND MAN Y OF THOSE, AT LEAST, THE?! I
3 : 7 > | f; (.
IS THE F-HIFlTS THAT APE LYING If,' FRONT r,r
4 MIL1 IHLPI. t-OING FROM
THROUGH TRIPlE-A. THESE OTHER R>
5 HAVE NEVER BEEN SHOWN If: ANY PRETRIAL COMPLIANCE, ISN'T in '
6 CORRECT, HAVE NEVER ECCN MADE AVAILABLE IN ANY PRETRIAL
7 LUMI'L I ANL E ; DO YOU KNOW THAT?
e A. THIS IS MOT WITHIN MY KNOWLEDGE; I DON'T KM'
9 g. YOU DON'T KNOW THAT BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T DO I`-
10 ACTIVE PART OF IT; IS THAT RIGHT?
1) A. NO, THAT'S RIGHT.
Q. WOULD YOU REFER TO THF SUMMARY THAT WAS MAD:
12
13 YOU? JUST lOf'K AT IT; I'M GOING TO ASK YOU A QUESTION
14 ABOUT IT.
A . YE S 15
Q. there at the very last entry on the summary.
16 S SOMETH1NO UNDER A COLUMN HEADED "TOTAL"; DO YOU SEE THAT'
17
A . YES. 18
19
Q.
AND, OF COURSE,
WE'VC ESTABLISHED THAT THIS
SUMMARY RUNS FROM 1959 TO 1957; IS THAT RIGHT?
20
A. THAT'S R1GHT.
21
Q.
IN 1 9 5 7 , FOREXAMPLE,
IT SHOWS"CORP.," C-O-P-P
22
i AS .98-23
MP. . HORGAN: YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO A1. 24
PERCENTAGES BEING READ AT THIS TIME FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT 25
98
1 T HI ^ DOCUMENT HAS ALRFADY E E E N OBJECTED TO. THE COURT HA' ? 'iU ' 1 A I HI. f' AN OBJECT lor: T f t IT. AND THESE FIGURES V/ERE r JO T 3 : DPI l AR.F.D nr MR. JONES, IJU T KFRE PREPARED BY SOMEBODY ELSE,
4 AND THEY ARE HEARSAY TO HIM. AND I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO AN
5 !j READING OF ANY PERCENTAGES FROM THIS REPORT. l|
fi 'i
THE COURT: MR. MORRIS.
MR. MORRIS: YOUR HONOR, HE'S TESTIFIED HE'S REFRESH
6 'HIS RECOLLECTION. HE'S TESTIFIED THAT A.C.L. IS A MAJOR g , SUPPLIER FROM THESE VERY FIGURES RIGHT HERE. NOW, HOW CAN
10 THAI CL -- I THOUGHT IT WAS HEARSAY AT ONE TIME, TOO, BUT IT
11 WAS STILL USED AGAINST MY CLIENT AND, SURELY, I'VE GOT A PI
I? TO ASK HIM QUESTIONS ABOUT IT.
13 MP. MOTLEY: WE MOVE FOR THE ADMISSION INTO EV!DENC:
1 4 ))
iN('t , oi A.C.L. f/HIRIT NUMBER 10 AS A PLAINTIrr'S
15 EXHIBIT.
16 |i
MR.
i ,7 j, YESTERDAY,
MORGAN: JUDGE .
THE COURT HAS ALREADY OVERRULED THAT
18 THE COURT: BA IL1FF--WE'LL TAKE A TEN-MINUTE RECESS.
19 THE BAILIFF WILL TAKE THE JURY TO THE JURY ROOM.
YOU MAY STEP DOWN, MR. JONES, IF YOU CARE TO,
20
,, DURING THIS PERIOD. 21 n
!i
22
C T HE WITNESS LEFT THE STAND.)
(RECESS . ) 23
24 I: 25
THE COURT: BRING IN THE JURY.
99
1 (THE WITNESS RESUMED THE STAND;
2 THE JURY RETURNED TO THE COURTROOM.)
3 THE COURT: MR. MORRIS, YOU MAY RESUME. 4 MR. MORRIS: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION (CONTINUED)
6 BY MR. MORRIS:
7 Q. WOULD YOU PULL OUT THIS SUMMARY THAT'S BEEN
8 MARKED AS8EST0S--A.C.L. EXHIBIT 10?
9 A. OH, YES. YES.
10 , I
Q. ALL RIGHT. AND GOING DOWN TO THAT LAS T - -1. E X T
11 TO THE LAST COLUMN, THE YEAR 1957, IF I'M LOOKING AT THAT i I
12 i! CORRECTLY, A.C.L., ACCORDING TO THE SUMMARY, HAD .48 OF ONE
13 ii PERCENT, LESS THAN A HALF OF ONE PERCENT; IS THAT RIGHT?
14 A . T HAT 'S RIGHT.
10 g. I
)6 jt "TOTAL."
now--and then there is a column there called DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT COLUMN STANDS FOR THAT'S
17 j: called "TOTAL"? rp
18 A. THAT REPRESENTS A SINGLE FIGURE FOR THE WHOLE ("
19 THE PERIOD OF YEARS, THE YEARS COVERING 1939 TO 1957.
Q. IS THAT --DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS SUMMARY TO BE
20
THE SINGLE FIGURES TO BE THE TOTAL PERCENTAGE APPLIED DURING
21
ALL THAT PERIOD OF TIME FOR EACH COMPANY?
22
A. Will., FROM TACH COMPANY? ?s
24 Q. YES.
A. FOR USE AT PLANT THREE? 25
1 00
1: I!
2,
Q. YES. A. THIS ^ PIOmT.
3 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, BEHIND the WORD "CORP." OVER If.
4 COLUMN THAT'S ENTITLED "TOTAL," THERE IS THE FIGURE 15.96
5 .PERCENT; IS THAT CORRECT? !i
6 I1 i
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
7 j Q. WELL, DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT TO BE
THAT COR"
8 !j ACCORDING TO THIS SUMMAR Y --WHAT WE CALL CORPORATE, AS EE STO ' i i
9 |; CORPOR AT I ON L l M I T E D - - WHA T THEY SUPPLIED OR THEY HAD ON HA;.;
,0 , DURINN THAT PERIOD OF TIME OF THE TOTAL OF ASBESTOS, i5. h
n PERCENT WAS ASBESTOS CORPORATION LIMITED;
i,
,2 '! UNDER STAND?
IS THAT What yuj
ii l 13
A. YES, THAT'S RIGHT. YOU USE THE WORDS "HAD HN
1.1 NANI," AND That REALLY IS RIGHT. BECAUSE, WHEN I ANSv.ERlI
15 :'SLV I 1 U 5 QUESTION, YES, IT WAS - -THE QUESTION WAS RELATED
16 USL.
BUT, OT COURSE, ALL THESE ARE, IN FACT, FIGURES CF r.
!. ON HAND AS OF A DATE . 17
I:
18 ;
Q. RIGHT.
|, 19 i;
II I
20
A. AND THIS IS THESUMMARY. Q. THAT'S WHAT WE'RE REALLY TALKING ABOUT IN THE
jINVENTORY SHECTS AND EVERYWHERE ELSE?
21
i!
22
A. THAT ' S RI GHT .
23 Q. IS THE FIBER, AT LEAST AS FAR AS YOU KNOW, I S
SUPPOSED TO BE FIBER THAT IS THERE; 24
!S
!1
25
A. THAT 'S CORRECT .
IS THAT CORRECT?
101
1
ii
THAT'S WHAT YOU UNDERSTOOD THE REPORT TO R C r L
2 I S 1 h; r COP.PI (. T ?
3:
A . I .'.OECD, Yf S . o. NOW, IN THAT SAME COLUMN, IN THAT SAMEMTUTAL"
5
,1 COLUMN I
I HI RL ,
I
SEE THAI eELL HAS 5 3.90 PERCENT ;
IS Thai
I
I
: COR R L C T ? 6I
7| ii
B
A. T HAT IS CORRECT. Q. ALL RIGHT. AND THERE ARE OTHERS LISTED THEFI
9 A-iD I Mi r,'.9C PERCENT WOULD BP. MORE THAN HALF OF ALL Of Th-
10 ' FIBER SUPPLIED DURING THAT WHOLE PERIOD OF 1 9 3 9 TO 191-7, ij
--
11
/ALL OP I
THAT
FIBER ON HAND?
ON HAND, AGAIN, ALL OF THAT F I L
!! ON HAND FROM THE PERIOD OF 19 3 9 TO '57; IS THAT CORRECT? 1?
13 A . THAT IS RIGHT.
M Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE LAWYERS OUT THERE 1
SULLIVAN AND CROMWELL? IS THAT WHO THEY ARE? 15
16 A . SOME OF THEM.
17 Q- WELL , I WON'T ASK YOU ABOUT THAT.
MR . mop R|s :
1 THINK THAT'S ALL ! HAVE, YOUR HONOR
18
19 THE CO(JR T : THANK YOU.
MR . HORGAN? MR. NUMRICH?
20
MR . NUMRICH I
1 THINK MR. HORGAN'S BEFORE ME.
21
THE COURT: THANK YOU, MR. NUMRICH.
22
MR . horgan: DO YOU HAVE THAT EXHIBIT? 23
the COURT: WOULD YOU GIVE HIM BACK HIS PAPER , MP. 24
MR . MURR|S :
I'LL GIVE HIM MINE, YOUR HONOR. THE
25
102
1 h:.\ Mill. GUT HIS.
2
T u: i<upt:
if someone can spare one for a momeni, i\
3 HA* ( ml tlAliirf MAKE T HR f E OR FOUR COPIES.
4 CPOSS-fyAMINA T(ON
5
6
7 j YOU .
Q.
I HAVE ONLY a COUPLE OF QUESTIONS, SIR, TO ASl
8 THE EXHIDIT THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, A.C.L,
9 EXHIBIT NUMBER 10, COVERS THE YEARS FROM 1939 TO 1957 AT THE i<
10 KEASBT Y-MATT I SON PLANT HERE IN SAINT LOUIS?
!i
1 1 il
ji
il
12
.1
13
I1 !
A . THAT ' S RIGHT.
Q.
AND THERE WERE TWO PLANTSHERE;
WERE THERE NO' .
A. THERE WEP: .
14 ;
Q. AND THIS WAS PLANT THREE?
'5 ij
16 ![ j
17
a. Q.
A.
this was plant three. THAT WAS THE SHINGLE PLANT; WAS IT NOT?
THAT'S WHAT I GATHER, THE NAME BY WHICH IT WAS
18
' KNOWN.
Ij
|j 19
I l!
20 i !l
21
Q. A. Q.
DID YOU K NOW ANYTHING ABOUT PLANT NINE? (NO RESPONSE.)
DID YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT PLANT NINE THAT ..
HERE IN SAINT LOUIS?
22
! 23
24
A. q!
OH, YES, THAT WAS THE PIPE PLANT.
yes.
do you have any figures or percentag:
f hi f- L Ufj THE INVENTORIES OF PLANT NINE FROM 1 9 3 9 UNTIL l'i 26
I
103
J A.
i
2 f'LANl film.
WELL, Wf HAVL THE BACKGROUND INFORMATION FOP I'M NOT AWARC OF THE FACT THAT ANY PERCENTAGES
3 HAVL P LIN WC-MlO OUT.
i| 4
Q. WELL, WAG THERE ANY PARTICULAR REASON WHY,
I:ti 5 PREPARING THESE PERCENTAGE FIGURES ON PLANT THREE,
'I
IN
6 .THAT THERE WERE NO Pfc'RClNTAGE FIGURES PREPARED WITH RESPEC1
7 J TO PLANT NINE, AS FAR AS YOU KNOW, SIR?
Jj
8j t
A. AS FAR AS I KNOW, NOT.
9j
;i !i
10 ll THESL
l|
Q. YEARLY
IN OTHER WORDS, THE PEOPLE WHO SUPPLIED YOU w|l PERCENTAGES AS TO PLANT THREE DID NOT SUPPLY .
11 j| WITH ANY RESUME OF THE PERCENTAGES SUPPLIED TO PLANT NINE
1? |i DUPING THOSE YEARS; IS THAT CORRECT?
13 A . WELL, THEY DID, 1 N FACT.
14 Q. SIR?
15 A . THEY DID, 1 r. FACT , euT THESE ARE NOT PERCENT
16 TC.r.NAi i L FIGURES FOR BOTH PLANT S, BUT THE PERCENTAGE '
l; i havl umi seen for plant three .
18 . ALL RIGHT. BUT YOU HAVE NOT, OR NOBOD> HA
|! 19 ! PREPARED ANY PERCENTAGES TROM THE RECORDS OF PLANT NINE ' 1 ` '
I I YOU KNOW ABOUT TODAY FOR PURPOSES OF TESTIFYING IN COURT? 20 I
j
21
A. NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE.
,i
22 1
Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY INDEPENDENT KNOWLEDGE OF WHA!
M
j! T H L TOTAL TONNAGES WOULD HAVE BEEN DURING THOSE YEARS FOP 23
|plant nine for all of the asbestos suppliers? 24
!i 25
A. I COULDN'T TELL YOU WITHOUT REFRESHING MY
1 Kill 'Wt L DGL , BUI THE F| GURL S ARE THERE. 1
2 0 . THERE'S A LOT OF RECORDS YOU'D HAVE TO PC
3 T HA T ' S C.f'R PE f T .
4 i . AND IT W> "_JL D TAKE A LOT OF TIME, SIR?
5 . A . NOT A LOI OF TIME, NO. i
1
6 : Q. WELL, WOULD IT TAKE MORE THAN 15 MINUTES?
i
7 ij
A . probably not
8 i g NO? DO YOU HAVE THOSE RECORDS HERE?
A. I BELIEVE THEY'RE IN COURT.
g. THEY'RE 'IN COURT. DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR M
: THEY'VE BEEN MARKED AMD IDENTIFIED AS EXHIBITS YOURSELF?
11
i;
A . NO, TmEY HAVEN'T.
12
1
13
q WAS THERE ANY PARTICULAR REASON THAT YOU H-\v
)4 .NUT PLLN SUPPLIED OR CHECKED OVER AN Y YEARLY PERCENTAGE S'".
' SHOWING THE AMOUNT Of ASBESTOS FROM ALL SOURCES WHICH WERE
! ON INVENTORY DURING EACH OF THESE ACCOUNTING PERIODS OR
1 7 REPORTING PERIODS from 1939 TO 1937?
I 18 i;
A. really, are you ASKING why THE REFERENCES Tu
ii "OTHLR" ARE NOT SPELLED OUT SO WC KNOW WHO THE "OTHERS" Wl.l 19 n
!! JO II
Q. I UNDERSTAND. BUT I'M ASKING, ARE THERE ANY
ij PAR r I UJLAk REASONS NO YEARLY PERCENTAGE REPORTS SUCH AS You
2' i|.
l! HAVE RIGHT HERE WERE PREPARED WITH RESPECT TO PLANT NINE1
22 I,
A. OH, NO, I'M NOT AWARE OF IT. 23
24 i:
Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, DO YOU YOURSELF HAVE ANY
'I KNOWLLUGE as TO HOW LONG PLANT NINE WAS IN OPERATION?
26
105
1 / . NO, ! COULDN'T G1VC YOU A DATE . IT
2 It'S DUN IN OPERATION ABOUT AS LONG AS I RECALL, BUT 7 . '
3 N1 ) T V L B Y HE l PF'U L . I
4 0- DURING This PARTICUALR time of THESE PLRC.; 1 1
5 I WHAT W A -i T H[ RELATIONSHIP, SAY, FROM 1 939 TO 1 9 3 7 / WHAT WA i;
6 j, THE RCLATIONSHIP BETWl.LN T URNER -NE WALL AND KEASBE Y-MAT T I-' >. l'
7 A. WELL, DURING ALL THAT TIME, TURNER AND NEW-l:.
6 jj WAS THI PREDOMINANT HOLDER OF KEASBEY AND MATT 1 SON SHARES.
9 Q. I;
!j CORRECT?
10
SO, IT HAD THE MAJORITY OF THE SHARES; IS That
11 !! II U ji
12
f
A. YES. Q. AND- DURING That PERIOD OF TIME, WHAT V;AS Th!
13 j, RELAT I ONSHI P BETWEEN F-EASBEY-MATT I SON AND BELL ASBESTOS?
14 A. THEY WIRE ABLE TO PURCHASE THEIR FIBER RE'.":-II
15 ' MENTS FROM BELL DIRECT WITHOUT USING ThE BROKERING S E - V I : -
16 / UF T.A.F., TURNER ASBESTOS FIBERS. 17 Q. DID, DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME, OR ANY PA - ' OF
18 THAT PERIOD OF TIME, DID F.F ASBE Y-MAT T I SON OWN A MAJORITY . i :l
I; SHARES IN BELL ASBESTOS?
10
il
J!
20
I
A . NO, THEY DIDN'T.
|
21
q. did they own any shares?
a. OH, JUST A MINUTE.
22
Q. FROM '39 T 0 --
2j
i 24 I'
A.
fTO FINANCIAL 25
NO, FROM '39 TO '37, KEASEEY AND MATT!3 INTEREST IN BELL.
100
1 Q. ALL R 10 H1 . DID KEASBEY-MATT 1 SON EVER AGO'. 1 1 ' A
2 1 1 NA7K I al INTEREST IN bell, to your knowledge?
3 A . IT WAS THE HOLD1R OF THE SHARES OF THE CUf'i AN i
4 THAT OWNED BELL IN THE YEARS BEFORE 1954.
. 5 Q. WHAT COMPANY WAS THAT?
A . HUH?
6
;
7 i Q. YOU SAID IT WAS THE OWNER OF THE COMPANY?
A . YCS, Ut THE COMPANY WHICH OWNED THE BELL MIN!
8
IN THL YEARS BEFORE 1954. 9
10 Q- ALL RIGHT. AND AFTER THAT, '34, IT NO LCN.,: -
HAD ANY OWNERSHIP INTEREST?
11 |
A . NO, AFTER ITS SHARES WERE ACQUIRED BY TURN.-
12
NO
neWAL l - 13
Q- RIGHT.
14
A . --THEY HAD NO FURTHER DIRECT INTEREST 1 N : lb
AT ALL . 16
1
17
1
Q SO THEN TURNER-NEWALL HELD THE SHARES I N [: '
A `L 5 1 ( s. HAVING ACOU1PLP THEM FROM KEASEEY-MATT 1 SON ; 1 18
'
, CnRJ- LL I *) 19
20 j
1 21
A . THAT'S CORRLCT.
Q. DID KEASBEY -MATT 1 SON EVER THEREAFTER REACO'.'i
iANY SHARES IN BELL?
22
' 23
A . NO, THEY DIDN'T.
'i 24 i
Q. THEN--f:OK, WHAT I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU IS this-
j rm rl any PARTICULAR REASON THESE YEARLY PERCENTAGES ARE 25 if
1 is
107
I l.lMIflO H) THE YEAR; 1059 TO 1967?
2 A. NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. 3 Q. FOR EXAMPLE, IN OTHER WORDS, WHY DON'T v.t HAVE 4 1968, '69, '60, ' 6 ] , '62, 'f)J, '69, '65, '66, '67, '68?
6 A. WELL, AKTLR 1962, OR THEREABOUTS, WE CEASED TO
6 HAVE THE St RECORDS AT KEASPEY. 7 Q. SO, IN OTHER WORDS, IN '62 OR '63, CERTA1N-UED
B ACQUIRED--
9 A. THAT IS CORRECT.
10 Q. --THE OWNERSHIP OF KEASBEY-MATTI SON AND 1 Mi PE
1 1 NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN ANY REASON FOR THEM TO SUPPLY YOU WITH i I THIS type OK INFORMATION; IS THAT RIGHT?
12
13 ,
A. THAT li RIGHT.
14
q.
HAS That information EVER BEEN Shown- to >
' at
ANY TIME? 16
A.
10
BY CERTAIN-TEED?
17 Q . YES .
18 i>
il ] 19 '! I '
20
A. NEVER.
Q. OR BY TURNER-NE WALL?
A.
NEVER. I DON'T THINK TURNER AND NEWALl H'
!T
i!
21
Q. SO THEN THERE IS A PERIOD OF TIME tPOM 1"
1196 2 that keasbey-mat T 1 son did own bell, OR DID have a,`.
22
I NTEREST--STR I KE T HA T - - T HAT TURNE R-NEWALL HAD AN 1NTE-CA' 23
'! KCASBLY-MATT I SON? 24
I
' 26
A. I'M SURRY.
I'M UPSETTING THE S T E NOG R Al HL r
IN l
108
1 HAVIN'. MY HAND HE R I. . MAY I HAVE THE QUESTION AGAIN?
2 Q. LET ML BACK UP--LET'S STRIKE IT. WHAT | v.'.'.' T !>IIMK I'.;K f A S Bf Y - MA I T I SON WAS SOLDTO CERTAIN-TEED I' 4 l'iL2. DO n>U KNOW Ml AN Y REASON THAT THERE IS NO ACC'-11'
5 TOR THE YLARLV PERCENTAGES OF ASBESTOS ON HAND IN INVLN'
6 in plant three in those years uf 1957 to 1962? 7 A. WELL, I WOULD HAVE EXPECTED THERE TO PE A
e AT f L I A I N-TLED, BUT 1 PERSONALLY KNOW OF NONE.
9 Q . CERTA | f.-TEED DIDN'T TAKE OVER UNTIL 19 0 2; -
10 A. OH, I'M SORRY. WHICH DATES ARE WE AT NC*.
11
Q.
OKAY.
I'LL GET eACK TO
IT. SO, IN OTHER W -D
12 YHIJP RECORDS GO UP TO 1957 ON THIS SHEET, THESE YEARL"
13 l'L R L t NT AGE S
14 '
A. WELL, I WOULD HAVE EXPECTED THEM TO GO UP '
15 190 2 , If. FACT .
Q. YES, EOT THEY DON'T; DO THEY? 16
17 ^
A. WELL, THEY STOP HERE. Q. IN OTHER WORDS, THERE'S NO 1 9 5 8 , 1 9 59 , 1 9U1.
18 I
19 1Qb1, AND WHATEVER |
\: THIS SHEET?
20
PORTION OF
1902 ARE NOT ACCOUNTED FOR ON
zo
A . THEY'RE NOT.
21
Q- DO YOU KNOW WHY?
22
A . NO . 23
MR . MORGAN :
I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS
2J
THE COURT ; MR. NUMRICH. 25
109
1 CROSS - L X AM 1 HAT 1 QrJ
2 i i Mk . mhmf: | r h : 3 g. MR. Jlif.rs, I'M THE INFAMOUS JOHNS-KANV I LI i 4 lawyer Thai you kepi hearing references to yesterday Apu.r
5 His Oil NINO STATEMENT. AND, FIRST OF ALL, I WANT TO--VH'
Wl * (- L rtITM inis SUMMAPY SHEET, LET'S STAY WITH IT FOR /.
0
I; Ml NUTE S . 7
j: B
NOW, AS I UNO ERST AND YOUR TESTIMONY, MR. JHN 5,
9 YOU HAl> no INDEPENDENT KNOWLEDGE OF THE PERCENTAGES REFl-' :D
'Ion Tm| . SMELT BEFORF IT WAS HANDED TO YOU BY THE PARALEGAi : OP.
10
j1 TURNER and NEWALL, op. SULLIVAN AND CROMWELL, WHO PREPARCP ' I ;
11
Hist hat correct?
12
I1 13
A. THAT I S CORRECT .
Q. SO, WHEN YOU WERC FIRST SHOWN THIS SHEET, IT
14
I DIDN ' T REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION; DID IT? 15
!! 16
A . NO, I T D I D NOT .
I; 17
Q. BECAUSE YOU DID NOT HAVE ANYRECOLLECTION--
18 I I
1 19
A. OH, I DID BECAUSE I JUST FINISHED-Q. HOLD IT--YOU DID NOT HAVE ANY RECOLLECTION 0;
THE PERCENTAGES?
20
i
A. NOT OK THE PERCENTAGES, NO.
21
Q. THANK YOU. THAT'S WHAT I'M ASKING YOU ABOUi.
22
NOW, LET'S MOVE OVER TO THE "TOTAL" COLUMN A 23
j! AND DOWN AT THE BOTTOM OF THE "TOTAL" COLUMN, IN REFERENCE 24 li
, OVER ON THE LEFT-HAND SIDE OF THE PAGE --AND, AGAIN, FOR THi 25
IN
i
1 10
1
PLLOKD, V.T'RE TALMNi- ABOUT A.C.l. EXHIBIT 10--IT SA - '
S 51A
'Nl> iMIh IT GIVES A PLRi.t'in AGE FIGURE. WHAT IS THAT i-- ' fj-
3 :AM I |GURL ?
4 A. is That THE FIGURE A. 10 PERCENT?
5 Q. YES. AND THAT'S REFERENCED DOWN AT THE f ! M*
OF THE PAGE AS BEING ONLY FROM 1 95 3 TO '57; IS THAT C G Ru: r. T ?
6
:! 7 ji
|j
8
A . THAT ' S CORRECT . Q. OKAY. NOW, IT SAYS "OTHER." NOW, WHO ARE THE
"OTHER" REFERENCED IN THIS SUMMARY SHEET? 9
I
A. WELL, THE ONLY WAY OF ANSWERING THAT WOULD BE
10
!i ; TO LOOK at THE RECORDS, OF WHICH WE'VE HAD SPECIMENS AlMADY,
11
l:
WHICH SHOW MONTH BY MONTH, A LONG LIST OF FIBERS THA' S'
12
--
'or, 13
YOU KNOW,
A FEW OF
THOSE.
Q. LET ME ASK YOU THIS, MR. JONES: THOSE 'CN'IR" 1 14
ARE REFERENCED 15
r
' ASBESTOS FIBRE; 16
i<
THERE AND NOT DON'T THEY?
LISTED OUT
INCLUDE
TURN: -
17 ||
A. WELL, THEY WOULD HAVE INCLUDED FIBER WHICH was
''.procured through the services of turner asbestos fibres.
18 i
19 II II
Q. AND they would also include fiber from mi . C t
;| RHODES l A MINE?
20
A. WELL, THEY MIGHT--
21
,i
22
!l
23
Q. THAT TURNER ASBESTOS FIBRE HAD A MAIN INi: -.1 I A. WELL , IT'S POSS 1 BLE .
g.
AND ALSO OTHER TURNER AND NEWALL CUM.PAM:
v
2-1
MINIS WHICH THEY HELD AN INTEREST IN? 26
jl 1 l 1
1
'I
A. IT com P P E .
2 > N"W MAI CEP IAIN, B! CAUSE I
I'M saying THIS BECAUSE I rv'.'l BELIEVE FROM TIME TO TIME, A *, l 7
3 AND MATT I SON DID BUT f-ROM THOSE MINES. t
4 i I
Q. NOW, SO WE'RE STRAIGHT, THE "OTHER" IS NOT '. !
5 l OUT. IT JUST SAYS "OTHER," AND THAT'S A REFERENCE TO OTM ;
,j :| COMTAN1 E S?
6
I
t ! !)
7 A. THAT'S RIGHT.
B Q. SO THE JURY is CLEAR ON THAT.
9 NOW, WHAT PERCENTAGES ARE ACROSS FROM JOHN -
i 10 MAI.V I LLE OR JM?
11 '| !,
1? !
A. N I NETEEN--1 9 . 58 PERCENT. Q. NOW,' I WANT TO (.0 BACK TO THOSE EXHIBITS, r
13 IhMjOwH CVULLE -M THAT WE TALKED ABOUT BEFORE, AND I .ANT
l a N '* i wyKE ThL JURY UNDER ST ANDS THE TEST I MONY WHICH O j ' v !
15 UP TO THIS POINT IN TIME, MR. JONES, ABOUT WHAT EXACTLY I l|
16 CONTAINED ON THESE SHEETS WITH REFERENCE TO RAW MATERIAL
17 STOCK S.
18 NOW, RAW MATERIAL STOCKS REFERENCES ONLY T HI
19 FIBER ON HAND WHEN SOMEBODY WENT THROUGH AND APPARENTLY u' . ;f u
HOW MUCH FIBER WAS THERE; IS THAT CORRECT?
20
A. THAT'S SO.
21
0. IT DOESN'T REFLECT SALES?
22
A. NO, IT DOESN'T. 23
Q. IT DOESN'T REFLECT PURCHASES? 24
A. WELL, IT HAS TO REFLECT PURCHASES. 25
ii 1 1 2
i;
1 Q. WELL, LET ME UNDERSTAND WHAT WE'RE TALKIN',
2 A!:,'OT HI. Rf. . WE'RE TALKING ABOUT JUST A FIGURE, WHATEVER II
3 HM.MT nr, b() TONS, SO TONS, THAT SOMEBOOY WENT THROUGH an
4 LOOMED AND CAME UP WITH THAT FIGURE, THAT THAT IS WHAT V.
5 THERE ON A PARTICULAR DAY IN A PARTICULAR YEAR? i
11
6
'i
.1
A. THAT'S RIGHT.
7 Q. IT DOES NOT REFLECT THAT FIBER WAS PURCHAbi
B DURING THAT TIME PERIOD OR BETWEEN THE TIME PERIODS THAT
9 iMLNT-KY V.'.'.S TAKEN; DOES IT?
10
T
A. WELL, IT DOES, ACTUALLY; IF YOU LOOK AT T -if
11 : PREVIOUS MONTH AND THEN YOU LOOK AT THE MONTH THAT YCU'RE
I ' L r IT
12 ABOUT, YOU CAN SEE WHERE THE FIBER HAS EITHER COME INTO 1 "
13 plant or gone out. if it had gone out, you would use the U WORD "SALES." IT WOULD NOT BE A QUESTION OF SELLING; IT
15 WOULD EE A OUESTION OF USING. THEY EITHER USED THE STU-f
16 AND THE FIGURES WENT DOWN, OR THEY TOOK A FRESH DELIVERY AN_17 j, THE F IGUP.ES WENT UP .
18 Q. WELL, MR. JONES, IF THE FIGURE REMAINED THE SAME,
19 YOU COULD NOT TELL WHETHER ANY FIBER WAS USED OR PURCHASED
DURING A CERTAIN TIME PERIOD; COULD YOU?
20
21 l>|1 i1
22
A. NO, YOU COULDN'T. Q. AND SO, AS YOU LOOK AT THESE FIGURES, YOU C
I. i TELL HOW MUCH FIBER WAS USED OR HOW MUCH FIBER WAS PuRCmA 23
I DURING ANY PARTICULAR TIME PERIOD; CAN YOU? 24
I A. NO, BUT THE DOCUMENT FROM WHICH THESE F 1GJR:
25
i 113
1 W ' R f 'OMt'llfD SHOWS `XACTLY THAT.
0.
BUT V.f 1'U NOT HAVE THAT DOCUMENT f [
-i
1 t- . NO .
4 Q. BECAUSE IT WAS NOT ATTACHED TO THE E X HIP[ :
5 FURNISHED Cr THE COMPANY THAT USED TO WORK FOR TURNER AM- NlV.A
6 ISN'T THAT CORRECT? 7 A . THAT'S CORRECT.
8 Q. NOW, I'M INTERESTED 1N PLANT NINE . AND YOU ` NOW
9 WL GO through ALL THESE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT PLANT THREE AND T HE Y
10 BR 1 NG you all the WAY OVER HERE AND ASK YOU TO COMP ILE A L L
11 These FIGURES for half OF THIS PLANT, AND you COME up W1V A
1 FIGURl OF ]9S8 PERCENT OF ASBESTOS FIBER USED BY MY CLiLfNS
12
`.DURING THE 30-YEAR --OR 18-YEAR PERIOD, I GUESS-13
14
MR. SHOEMAKE:
EXCUSE me, YOUR HONOR.
1 ' M GOING T
OBJECT. 15 I
THIS IS 740 T
Ji 16
i;
|i 17
MR. NUMRICH: MR. SHOEMAKE:
A QUESTION; IT'S A COMMENT. IT WILL BE A QUESTION.
LET ME FINISH MY OBJECTION.
THE COURT: HE HAS TO FINISH HIS QUESTION AND 1 Hi. N 18
! YOU MAY MAKE AN OBJECTION. 19 I|
j| MR. NUMRICH.
20
I
!
21
Q.
(BY MR. NUMRICH) WELL, MR. JONES, ISN'T II A
'FACT THAT THE REASON THE PLANT NINE FIGURES WEREN'T--YCJ 0=1 22 ij
flOT ASKED TO DO ANY COMPUTATION OF THE PLANT MINE FIGUPI ' i L : 2J
i all the plant nine fiber, or almost all of the plant nim 24
. ibi
LAME l ROM TURNER ASBESTOS, TURNER BROTHERS ASPEST0S, 0- ' 26
114
I oi thc wmdlly-ownfd companies or partially owned lomiam;
2 oh turner and newall?
3
A.
IT W'HJLD NAVE COME FROM A MINING COMIAN .
: 0 C
4 the 'UMPANIES THAT you ACTUALLY NAMED.BY NAME WCRE ME'`rfP ' OF
5 THE U.K. GROUP.OF COMPANIES, AND IT WOULD CERTAINLY NCT h WE
6 COME FROM ONE OF THOSE. IT COULD HAVE COME FROM A MININ'.
II 7 j! COMPANY THROUGH THE AG E NC Y OF T.A.F.
'i
8 i! DID OR NOT, 1 DON'T KNOW .
OF COURSE, WHETHER I T
1
9
Q. LET 'S take a look at DOU8LE-E again. MR .
i 10 ; DO YOU SEE THAT ?
11 A . YES, 1 HAVE DOUBLE -E .
12 Q. DO YOU see plant nine?
13 A . YES .
14 Q. DO YOU KNOW THAT PLANT NINE IS T UC 0 T r L !
l'j "attison plant here IN SAINT LOUIS--OR WAS THE 07-- r R , .
MATT I SON PLANT HERE IN SAINT LOUIS? ir>
17 i
18 :
19 i
20 ;1 i 1
21 i 1. ,, LOOKS
22
23 li i
24
ij 25 i!
r
A . YES, 1 DO KNOW THAT WAS PLANT NINE .
Q. WHERE 1S--WHAT FIBER 1 S LISTED on plant n; A . WELL, THE F 1 RST ITEM 1 s 230.86 TONS . Q. WHERE DOCS THAT COME FROM?
A. I 'M NOT SURE THAT 1 DON 'T NEED A RULER, FU
TO ME AS THOUGH 1T 'S c G- 3; IS THAT RIGHT?
Q- THAT ' 5 WHAT I HAVE, TOO A . YES, C G- 3 Q- NOW, WHAT'S THE NEXT FIGURE ON THERE ?
11s
I
/ j'
TJy .'l', /.I.', .t./L-jl
^.
f-'jl'.l
.
3 Q. OKA/. LET'S GO TO DOUBLE-H.
4 MR. NUMRICH: YO'JR HONOR, MAY I APPROACH THE W I T r. SS ?
5 MY (,OPY OF THIS EXHIBIT IS NOT VERY GOOD.
1 6
!i
THE COURT: YOU MAY, MR. NUMRICH. AND WE MAY HAV A
7 : RULER IF THAT WILL HELP ANY. i I
8 Q. (BY MR. NUMRICH)
OKAY, NOW, MR. JONES, I A i.a i r
I
9 | WANT TO REFERENCE THE RAW FIBER STOCK DATEO MAY 31 A T T A' 1 i i
10 TO T C N'S EXHIBIT HH. WHERE IS THE RE F E RENCE --WHAT
: REFERENCE DO YOU SEE IN PLANT NINE TO ASBESTOS FIBER?
11
12 |
13 ;
A . WELL, the first ONE IS 83.55 TONS.
Q. AND WHERE IS THAT FROM?
1
14
I
15
A . THAT 'S C & G -3 . Q. AND WHAT'S The NEXT ONE?
A . SEVENTY-SIX POINT FOUR THREE TONS, AND I 16
17 P C & G - A .
!. Q.
18 li
I DON'T WANT TO BELABOR THE POINT, MR. ,!
ni- going through the rest of these, but isn't it a f ; 19
,THE REST OF THESE WOULD SHOW AS EXHIBITS THAT WE llAVi "
20
| HL RE --DOUBLE-L , DOUBLE-K, AND DOUBLE-M, OF WHICH MY </p ?l
^OBLITERATED; I REALLY CAN'T MAKE OUT WHAT'S IN DOUBLC-"- i.JT 22 |i
|| ISN'T IT A FACT THAT ALMOST ALL OF THE FIBER MENTIONED A 23
r BE 1 NG IN STOCK AT SAINT LOUIS PLANT NINE IS C & G F J 6 L -
24
i, F I D L R COMING FROM ONE OF THE- TURNER AND NEWALL SUBSIDE, 25
116
1 COMPAN I F.S?
2 A . MAY I HA VI A LOOK BEFORE ANSWERING THAT Qj: ' j jr..
3 I' L (. Au 5! I DON'T KNOW
4 Q. GO RIGHT AHEAD.
5 THE COURT: HERE'S Aruler IF THAT HELPS.
THE WITNESS: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, YOUR HONOR.
6
7 WE'VE GOT TO HH; WHICH WAS THE NEXT ONE?
8 Q. CBY MR. NUMR1CH) I THINK KK WOULD BE THE f.L ' 1
9 UNL
10 A. KK, PLANT NUMBER NINE, THE FIRST ENTRY IS
ions 11
12
Q.
WHERE DOES THAT COME FROM?
A. THAT COMES FROM CORPORATION, A.C.L. 13
14
Q.
WELL, IT'S JUST
IDENTIFIED ON THAT SHEET A
1RPNRATE," ISN'T IT? 15
A. WELL, IT'S IDENTIFIED AS "CORP." THAT'S FI - . 16
BUT THAT'S WHO IT IS. 17
Q. WHAT'S THE NEXT ONE? 18
A. SIXTEEN POINT FIVE TONS, AND THAT'S "CORP.," IUO. 19
Q. WHAT IS THE NEXT ONE?
20
A.
FIFTY-FIVE POINT FIVE FIVE TONS, AND THAT'S
&C
21
AND THEN WE HAVE 16.7 TONS, C G-4; 78.12 TONS, CAPE
22
I. 'ASBESTOS; 25.77 TONS, AMOSITE.
WELL, THAT'S THE END OF T"<
23 :! FIBER LIST.
IT'S all RAW MATERIALS AFTER THAT.
24 !l
p
25
Q. OKAY. THAT'S KK. THERE WAS NO MENTION OF
117
JOHNS-MANVILLE FIBER IN PLANT NINE ON THIS EXHIBIT; WAS V:: c[?
2 A . NO, THERE WASN' T .
3 q. LET'S Go TO LL.
4 A. YES, 1 HAVE LL. DO YOU WANT ME TO GO TH= "
5 LIST AGAIN?
6 q YES .
7j
A. the first item IS 9.4 TONS, WHICH IS COFI -
8 ! the next item IS 308.G9 TONS, WHICH IS C G-3.
THE NE :
9 IS 4<J.78 TONS, WHICH IS CAPE ASBESTOS. THE NEXT CNE IS 7
..h I CM IS AMOS I TE . THAT'S IT
TH 1,
Q. there?
AND NO MENTION OF JOHNS-MANVILLE ON THAI
13 :j 14
A. NO MENTION OF JOHNS-MANVILLE . Q. LET'S NO TO THE NEXT ONE, MM.
MP . NUMRJCH: YOUR honor, MAY | APPROACH THE Wi T r. ' ? 15
THE CO'JR T : YUU MAY . 16
it ;
I; 18 ,
MR. NUMRICH: BECAUSE I DO NOT HAVE A COPY OF THAT r.t; . Q. (BY MR. NUMRICH) MR. JONES, WHAT'S THE F | P :
, l IS TING THERE ? 19
20 |
21 '
22 'I
'i (there 23
24
2S
a. thip.ty-four point two three tons. Q. AND WHERE IS THAT FROM? A. BELL'S. OH, I'M SORRY. WE'RE ONPLANT SEVl
THIS IS PLANT NINE . Q. OKAY. A. PLANT NINE, ThE FIRST ITEM IS 30 TONS, C
5.
1 18
1 THL r.'F. XT ONL IS 58.91 TONS, CAPE ASBESTOS-S. THE NEXT 0\` !
2 l.'.LK TdNS, U M-3--THAT'S A NEW ONE TO ME COMPLETELY.
3 ANO THE NEXT ONE IS 219-72 TONS, AMOSITE-M-1.
i
4 j ONE IS 15.26 TONS, HVL-3.
AND THE N: I
5
1
' 6 ii
Q. A.
WHAT'S HVL- 3 ? WHOSE FIBER IS THAT? THAT'S A F I PER THAT COMES FROM A MINE CALLED
' HAVILOCK IN SWAZILAND. 7
I 8
Q. WHO OWNS THAT MINE?
! 9
a. That's one in which t & n had a predominant
INTEREST, OP. HAD AT THIS TIME.
10
I !
11
i
Q. is there any mention of johns-mamville ON
THAT [ xhIE I T ? 12
A. NO MENTION OF JOHNS-MANVI LEE THERE. 13
14
1
1 DON ' T 15
0- OUST So the RECORD IS STRAIGHT, MR. J NFS, KNOW WHY THEY DIDN'T ASK YOU TO DO THE COMPUTATIONS
'N
plant n i ne ; do you ? 16
A. NO. 17
i' 0. NOW, WHO'S the PRESENT CORPORATE SECRETARY Hi 18
i TURNER AND NEWALL?
19
A. A MAN CALLED DODSON, CHRIS DODSON.
20
i| 21 'I
Q. AND AS I UNDERSTAND IT, MR. JONES, THE RECORDS - -
jl WHERE DID THE RECORDS COME FROM THAT THESE COPIES THAT WE'?! 22 !i
ii li LOOKING AT WtRE MADE FROM? WHERE DID THE MINUTES COME FROM :
23
! A.
24 I
l! OF I ICE. 25 li'
j
THE MINUTES COME FROM TURNER AND NEWALL'S Hr A'
li 119
I Q. AND YOU PULLED THOSE OUT APPARENTLY B E FOR f
2 .RETIRED?
3 A. I DID.
4 Q. AND YOU WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR COMPILING AND ^'JLLHiG ! all those exhibits out. how many--from what years to what
5
6 years DID YOU PULL OUT ?
7 \
A. I SUPPOSE - -1 REALLY COULDN'T TELL YOU FOR
8 ' LU! I SUPPUSI IT WOULD BL A COUPLE OF YEARS UP TO 1 980 , r-
1
;j CERTAINLY a YEAR AFTER 1980 WHEN 1 RETIRED. 9
i;
:|
10 i
Q. EXACTLY what DATE DID YOU HAVE THE RECORD'.'
"I
The way back TO? The 'JO'S OR '2 0 ' S ?
11
A. WHAT?
12
q. DID THi SECORDS THAT YOU PULLED OUT f ;R T-, 13
14 PEOPLE GO BACK TO THf ' 3 0 ' S AND THE ' 2 0 ' S ?
1
15
A. oh, y r s, they did, the ' 3 0 ' S anyway.
,1
16
q. DID THC y go back PRIOR to 1 939 ?
| 17
|
jj 18
A . PR I OR TO
I 93 9
Q. NOW, YOU SAID YOU--GETTING BACK TO THE SUv."A->.
| LET'S GET BACK TO THAT FOR A FEW MINUTES, MR. JONES. 19
YOU SAID
| THAT AFTER THIS SUMMARY WAS PREPARED BY A PARALEGAL FROM THC
20
SULLIVAN ANl) CROMWELL OFFICE IN NEW YORK, OR THE TURNER AND
21
NCWALL PEOPLE IN ENGLAND, YOU WERE HANDED THIS AND YOU SAID
22
' YOU CROSS-CHECKED THESE NUMBERS TO VOUCH FOR THEIR ACCURAC; 23
j 1S THAT CORRECT? 24
|| 25
A.
NO, NOT THESE NUMBER'S. THESE WERE
COMPILED 'ROM
120
t AN rxTRACT Of ALL THE STOCK INVENTORIES OVER THE RELEVANT
2 Y f APS; AND THOSE EXTRACTS SHOWED THE TONNAGES, NOT The 3 f'! Ri.FNTAGLS . AND FROM THOSE TONNAGES, THIS LIST Of PERCf 4 WAS P.U I I T UP.
b Q. SO WE GO f-ROM THE RECORDS AVAILABLE AT TUPS'-
j AND NLWALL TO AN EXTRACT PREPARED BY SOMEONE ELSE.
6
I 7 j KNOW WHO THAT SOMEONE ELSE WAS?
DO V..
B I!
A. YES. THAT WAS THE --NANC Y, AS WE REFERRED !'
' EARL ILR ON. 9
10
I
11
\
Q. THE PARALEGAL FOP SULLIVAN AND CROMWELL? A. YES.
Q. AND THEN WE GO TO THESE FIGURES. AND DID Y0' '
12 ;i CRUSS-CHCCK on the EXTRACTS?
13 r ON?
Id
IS THAT WHAT YOU C RO S S - C H L > .
15 ii
! 16 i
'I l>
1 7 I!
'! IB
ii
HERE 19
A. Q. A. Q. WHERE
YES, I CROSS-CHECKED ON THE EXTRACT. BUT YOU DIDN'T CROSS-CHECK ON THE P E R C E NT AG t ^ NO, I DID NOT RECALCULATE THESE. BECAUSE I NOTICE DOWN ON THE TOTAL PARTS, DOWN IT SAYS "TOTAL," YOU WOULD THINK THOSE WOULD ADO
UP TO A HUNDRED PERCENT; WOULDN'T YOU? 20
A. YES. TOTAL? 21
Q. YOU'D THINK THEY WOULD ADD UP TO A HUNDRED
22
PERCENT? 23
i | A. 24
I DON'T THINK YOU WOULD, WOULD YOU, BECAUSE 1"t
i LAST FIGURE IS NOT FOR THE SAME PERIOD AS THE FIRST FOUR,
25
I
!l 121 ii
I alcurding TO THE footnote. " Q. SO YMU'j HAVE MURE THAN ONE HUNDRED PEF'`
3 MOW ' AN YM'J have HOPE Than ONE HUNDREO PERCENT OF F I CEP IN 4 MOCK AT A TIME?
5 I( li
6
7 il
A. IS IT MORE THAN ONE HUNDRED PERCENT?
Q.
YES.
IT'S 103 PERCENT.
A. I'M NOT SURE THAT'S NOT SURPRISING, IF YOU
8 i; PUT IN ONE FIGURE AT THE BOTTOM WHICH COVERS A PERIOD OF Ij
9 ,i FOUR YEARS . il
10 ii, i.
Q. SINCE YOU DIDN'T PREPARE THIS LIST,
11 j| CAN'T SPEAK TO THE ACCURACY OF IT; CAN YOU?
[ GUE S J-
r UU
i:
12
A. I'M SURE THE FIGURES ARE ACCURATE. THE f'.t ' Th
13 , ONE OF THE FIGURES HAPPENS TO RELATE TO A SLIGHTLY DIF ! L L : NT
r 14 : PERIOD FROM THE OTHERS IS FOUND TO UPSET THE STRICT Er F L' r.
15 Q. BUT AS FAR AS YOUR TESTIMONY GOES, MR. jCN! , !! YOU CAN'T VOUCH FOR THE ACCURACY OF THESE FIGURES 6 E C A uc; ' OU
16
17 [DID NOT CROSS-CHECK THEM; DID YOU?
18
! i'
l
19
!: il|!il
20 1
A.
THAT'S R1 GMT .
I DIDN'T.
Q- NOW, WHEN DID YOU RETIRE FROM TURNER AND NiwAi.L
A' AT The END OF APRIL 1980.
21
22 ,1i
Q NOW, WERE YOU A STOCKHOLDER IN THAT COMP.'-M-
A. 1 WAS.
23 '
Q- ARE YOU STILL A STOCKHOLDER IN THAT COMIV!,
;; 24
A. 1 AM .
Q- HOW MUCH STOCK UO YOU HOLD?
2b
122
I
MR. SHOEMAKE:
I'M GOING TO OBJECT, YOUR HONOR.
1 :'! . 'J(>` yr I HAVE any r fc l l vanc y to any of THE ISSUEC 1 ?/.'
3 15 i I HI. PLEADINGS.
4 THE COURT: OBJECTION OVERRULED. HE MAY INQUIRE. Ii''
5 CROSS-EXAM I NAT I ON.
6 Q. 7 A. 8 Q. 9 STATES?
(BY MR. NUMRICH) HOW MUCH STOCK DO YO'J OWN MY HOLDING IS ABOUT 1200 STOCK UNITS. IS THAT WHAT WE CALL 1 200 SHARES IN The UN I ' '
10 A. TWELVE HUNDRED SHARES, YES.
Q. HOW MANY OUTSTANDING SHARES DO YOU HAVE?
11
A. | SHOULD SAY ABOU T--THE FIGURE THAT STICKS IN
12
MY MIND, AND I'M NOT SURE. 13
I'M THINKING BACK TO THE
14 VERY LAST DAYS OF MY TENURE OF OFFICE, OR EARLIER. IT'S A LN ; T
G b , 0 0 0 , SAY GO, 0 0 0. 15
Q. NOW, WERE YOU --WHEN YOU PULLED THESE RECORDS < J T 16
FOR TURNER AND NEWALL, WERE YOU ON SALARY FROM TURNER AND 17
NF. WALL ? 18
A. YES, I WAS. 19
Q. HOW MUCH WERE YOU MAKING THEN FROM TURNER AND 20
NEWALL ? 21
MR. SHOEMAKE: YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO nuw
22
MUCH HE MAKES. THIS HAS NO RELEVANCY TO ANY ISSUES AGAIN?' 23
T & N OR T.A.F . 24
THE COURT: THE COURT BELIEVES IN CROSS-EXAMINATION 25
123
1 Mt'S fNTITifciD TO ASK THESE QUESTIONS. OBJECT ION OVLRRULL
2 THE WITNESS: MY SALARY AT THAT TIME WAS AEON T \y.
3 f-M'.i-jDs CL? annum.
4 1
1 5
11
6
! 1
7I
Q. HOW DOES THAT CONVERT TO AMERICAN DOLLARS? A.
ABOUT $36,000.
Q. AND DID YOU ALSO HAVE BENEFITS WITH THAT?
A WOUCD YOU CALL BEING A MEMBER OF THE PENSION
6 FUND A BENEFIT?
9 Q. YES. THAT'S MY NEXT QUESTION.
10 A . YES .
11 Q- ARE YOU NOW A PENSIONER OF TURNER AND NEWAll '
12 A . 1 AM' NOW ON PENSION FROM T URNE R-NE WA LL .
13 Q. AND ARE YOU BEING PAID TO TESTIFY HERE TODA-'
14 A . NO, 1'M NOT.
15 Q. WERE YOUR EXPENSES PAID OVER HERE?
16 A . MY EXPENSES ARE BEING PAID.
17
1
18 1
Q. IS THAT YOUR WIFE BACK THERE WITH YOU, MR. u.:.1 S
A . SHE'S WITH ME.
19 Q. WERE HER EXPENSES PAID?
A. HER EXPENSES ARE BEING PAID.
20
Q. NOW, GETTING BACK TO THE SALES PURCHASE R L *'' - a
21
ijFOR A COUPLE MORE QUESTIONS, OR THE STOCK RAW INVENTORY -
22 r
'| WOULDN ' T IT EE TRUE, MR. JONES, THAT THE ACTUAL SALES PuR 23
;i
IjRLCORDS, INVOICES, OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO TERM THEM, w>"',: 24
i! 13L THf BEST EVIDENCE AS TO HOW MUCH FIBER WAS SOLD TO
25
124
1 '-'Aim LUUIS TO BE USED IN PLANT THREE OVER ANY PEPiUt
2 WOULDN'T THAT BE THE BEST EVIDENCE?
3 A. I SUPPOSE. IT PROBABLY WOULD, YES, RUT I'r
4 SURE YOU CAN GET HOLD 01 THESC, THE SALES INVOICES IN !,'
5 CASE. IS THIS QUEST 1U14 DIRECTED SOLELY TO WHETHEP SAl'
6 INVOICES WUULD BE A BETTER RECORD OF WHAT THEY HELL'?
' 7 ;1
(
8I
Q. YES, SIR. A. IT WOULD BE A BETTER RECORD, PERHAPS, OF wmi' r
9 ; THEY HAD, BUT WHAT THEY HELD IS SHOWN--WHAT WAS, F RON TIC: . TO
i 10 time, IN THEIR WAREHOUSE IS SHOWN QUITE PRECISELY FROM ]<; :.e
1 1 DOCUMENTS.
j,
12
II
I.
Q.
WOULDN'T THE 13
HOW ABOUT WHAT THEY BROUGHT FROM JOHNS-MAN. I LLE 7 SALES RECORDS CE THE BEST EVIDENCE OF WnAT
: THEY BOUGHT FROM JOHNS-MANV1LLE? 14
A. WELL, IF YOU HAVE A RECORD WHICH SHOWS PFEL I S E L ' 15
WHAT JOHNS-MANV1L L E FIBER IS SITTING ON THE SHELF. 16 i;
ISN'T I T
' THAT ? 17
i 18
!;
Q. EXCUSE ME. I DO NOT MEAN TO CUT YOU OFF, r
' JONES, BUT MY QUESTION WAS--YOU CAM ANSWER IT YES OR NO: 19 I
il j! WOULD THE SALES RECORDS BE THE BEST EVIDENCE OF WHAT WAG
20
i PURCHASED FROM JOHNS-MANV 1 LLE OVER ANY PERIOD OF TIME TMA I YOl 21 I
il WANT TO PICK OUT? YES OR NO?
22
:! 23 I,
jj
24
A. I SUPPOSE THEY WOULD, YES. MR. NUMRICH: THANK YOU.
v 25
THE COURT: NOW, MR. KOSTA, OR ANYONE ELSE WHO HA;.
i 125
t rjf)T INQUIRED?
2 MR . M)S T A ; NO QUESTIONS, YOUR HONOR.
3 '1L C N R T ; MR . SHCEMAIE. d MR . SHOEMAKE : A FLW QUESTIONS, YOUR HONOR
5 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR . 5 HO EM ARE 1 G1
< 7
Q. MR.
JONES,
IF I HEARD YOU CORRECTLY, SIR, I
8 BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT YOU OWN APPROXIMATELY 1200 SHARES IN
I
: TURNER AND NEWAlL OUT OF b6,000. 9
DID YOU MEAN 66 MILLION
SHARES ISSUED? 10
ii
i A. I'M SURRY,I DID; 66 MILLION, YES.
11 |!
|j 12
Q. ALL RIGHT. AND THE SHARES SELL FOR WHAT?
i
i ABOUT A DOLLAR 13 I `
APIECE, TWO DOLLARS
APIECE?
' Id r
A. TWO AND A HALF.
i 15
u Twn AND A HALF DOLLARS APIECE. SO YOU'VE GO'
li $3,000 INVESTMENT, OR LESS than THAT, IN SHARES?
16 !!
jj 17
)i
A.
THAT'S THE
BASE OF IT, YES.
Q. NOW, YOU WERE ASKED SOME QUESTIONS ON CROSS-
18 II
EXAMINATION WITH REGARD TO THE FACT THAT THESE MONTHLY 19
INVENTORY SHEETS WERE --THAT WE PRESENTED YOU WERE ONLY UP
20 !
THROUGH 1957. CAN YOU TELL THE COURT AND JURY WHETHER OR NOT, 21
AS A MATTER OT FACT, THERE CAME A PERIOD OF TIME WHEN KEASPE'i
22
AND MATT I SON NO LONGER KEPT ITS INVENTORY BY PLANTS, THAT IS. 2J
INVENTORY IN SAINT LOUIS, INVENTORY IN PENNSYLVANIA, EUT E: 2d
j IT ON A NATIONWIDE BASIS INSTEAD? 25
126
1 A . 1 'M BOUND TO SAY 1 DON'T REMEMBER THAT.
2 Q ALL RIGHT. NOW, 1 BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT Tu-
3 AND NLWALl. w'iP.lDWIOL HAS SOMETHING LIKE 4 0 -45 , 000 E f-' P L 01 : i
4 I . T HA T COR* I C T ? I
5i l j
6t (
7 i ANY
II,
8
A. THAT'5 CORRECT . Q. ALL RIGHT. DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT EMPLOYEES IN THE UNITED STATES? A. NO, IT HASN'T.
IT HA-
9 u. ALL RIl-HT. CAN YOU TELL THE COURT AND JUF '
10 | REGARD TO KEEPING THISE RECORDS FOR PLANT THREE, THE SHIN-. | plant, from 1939 to 1957, whether or not, when you first
11
STARTED KEEPING THESE RECORDS, THERE WAS EVEN A PLANT NiN-
12
i| 13 |; EXISTENCE IN SAINT LOUIS, IF YOU KNOW?
N
14 I:
A. YES. I DON'T REMEMBER WHEN PLANT NINE CAME
- INTO EXISTENCE. 15
r
li Q. ALL RIGHT. DID I UNDERSTAND YOU CORRECTLY To 16
!i
j say THAT KEASCEY AND MATTISON PURCHASED ITS FIBER DIRECTLY
17 i
j! FROM bell MINES WITHOUT GOING THROUGH TURNER ASBESTOS FIRKIN?
18 ;>
;! 19 I
A . THAT ' S R I GMT .
| Q. NOW, THE DOCUMENTS THAT YOU REVIEWED TO REFRIGH
20 ! YOUR RECOLLECTION ARE IN THE COURTROOM TODAY; IS THAT CORPL.T?
21
A. THAT IS CORRECT.
22
;! 23
i
Q. THAT IS, ALL THE INVENTORY LISTS FOR THE MON ' 5
l| IN QUESTION FOR THE YEARS ARE IN THE COURTROOM; IS THAT
24 ,i1
1 CORRECT ? 25
127
THAT IS CORRf CT.
2 U. ALL RIGHT . AND IS THAT SUMMARY THAT YOU HAV:
3 . front oi you from whicm--strike that,
and that summary is
PREHARED from THOSE RECORDS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A . THAT IS CORRECT .
MR. SHULMAKE: YOUR HONOR, AT THIS TIME, I THINi I
WOULD ASK LEAVE TO FILE AS AN EXHIBIT ALL THE INVENTORY LIj'
8 || tHAT ARE IN THE COURTROOM, BECAUSE OF THE RECORD THAT HAS ii
g ;| HERETOFORE BEEN MADE BY VARIOUS COUNSEL WITH REGARD TO THE
i10 .! ACCURACY OF
THE DOCUMENT
THAT
THE WITNESS HAS.
I THINK IT
I; WOULD BE AN AID TO THE EFFECTIVE PROOF IN THIS CASE, AND 1
11
I
i DON'T SEE THAT IT WORKS INTO PREJUDICE. 12
THE WITNESS HAS SC
: TESTIFIED. 13 |
A,NO I WOULD ASK TO BE ALLOWED TO FILE THAT SUMM>
\c I4
IV. ' ! \ ' ! r I Y I \ ri t . I I: l I t\l
MR . MORRIS: I 0 Ii Jl C I , '< I >U K I INf INK .
II ii Kl A'.illi I 1 I n 11
15
IS EECAUSE, ON BEHALF OF A.C.L., IS THEY WERE NOT PROVIDED 16
I] AT A TIME when, by ORDER OF THE COURT, THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN 17
! PROVIDED, AND WHEN THERE WAS TIME TO DO SOMETHING WITH
IB |l
THOSE RECORDS. IT IS TOO LATE AND 1 OBJECT. THEY'RE OUT oF 19
TIME . 20
THC COUR T : MR. BEERS. 21
MR. BEERS: THE PRETRIAL ORDER, AS I UNDERSTAND, DOSS
22
NOT BAR THE INTRODUCTION OF EXHIBITS AT A LATER TIME ON 2J
REBUTTAL. CERTAINLY WE WOULD OFFER THEM ON BEHALF OF BRINCO 24
IN REBUTTAL TO A.C.L.'S PRESENTATION IN THIS CASE. MOREOVLR 25
1
128
1 ,| MR . UtiMRICH AMD MR. MORRIS HAVE HAD THE FOUR OR FIVE SAMPLES
2 SINCE I'.rFOKC THE BCG INMI MO OF THIS CASE AND HAVE HAD AMPLE
3 OPrOFIUMlIY TO RA1SC THIS MATTER.
4 MR. MORRIS: THAT'S ALL WE HAD, THE FOUR OR FIVE
5
,j !l
SAMPLES.
THAT'S ALL OF IT.
||
6
THE COURT: MR. NUMR ! CH.
! MR. NUMR1CH: EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR. 7
WHEN THE PRETRIAL
WAS FILLD WITH THE LISTS OF EXHIBITS, MR. JONES HAS TESTIFIED
8
9 THAT ALL THESE EXHIBITS WERE AVAILABLE TO TURNER AND NEWALL
! to MAPl AS EXHIBITS. 10 ,1
NOV.', WE'RE IN THE FOURTH WEEK OF THIS
.1
'I TRIAL AND MOW THEY V.'ANT TO COME UP AND SHOVE THEM INTO 11 !!
'I Ij EVIDENCE.
WE OBJECT FOR THE SAME REASONS WE OBJECTED BlFOF: .
12
: 13
THE Cl 'UP T : ANYONE ELSE WISH TO BE HEARD?
MR. MOTLEY. 14
MR. MuTlEY: YES, YOUR HONOR.
I THINK COUNSEL FUR
15
i| JOHNS-MANVI LLE AND ASBESTOS CORPORATION LIMITED, BY THEIR
16 ;!
| CROSS-EXAMINATION, 17
I
IF FOR NO OTHER REASON, HAVE OPENED THE
, DOOR TO THE ADMISSION OF THESE RECORDS. 18
AND I THINK IT WOULD
SHED LIGHT ON WHOSE FIBERS WERE IN THIS PLANT, AND IT IS 19
MATERIAL AND RELEVANT, AND WE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THIS WITNESS
20
RETAINED UNTIL OUR REBUTTAL CASE, IN THE EVENT THE COURT 21
DEEMS IT INAPPROPRIATE, BECAUSE WE WANT TO OFFER THE RECORDS
22
INTO EVIDENCE. 23
MR. SHOEMAKE: 1 BELIEVE, UNDER RULE 1006, AS I READ IT, 24
1 SUMMARIES OF BACK-UP RECORDS, RELATING TO THOSE BEING IN THL 25
1 mulin'
APL R E LLVANT AND ADMISSIBLE. AND l WOULD AGAIN
2 AS> LEAVE TO MARK THEM AS AN EXHIBIT.
3 TH[ COURT: THE COURT WILL GRANT LEAVE TO MARK IT AS
4 AN EXHIBIT WITHOUT RULING AT THIS TIME WHETHER OR NOT SUCH
5 AN I'HIIMT SHOULD BE ADMISSIBLE. I WANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT TK
ARE A.'AUAbU AT THIS POINT TO ALL COUNSEL FOR EXAMINATION.
6
IS THAT CORRECT, MR. SHOEMAKE? 7
B MR. SHOEMAKE: THEY'RE IN THE COURTROOM AND AVAILABLE.
THE COURT: AND CAN THIS WITNESS BE MADE AVAILABLE? 9
to 1 take IT he can THROUGHOUT THE REMAINDER OF THIS TRIAL
TO THE PARTIES?
11
MR. SHOEMAKE: CAN YOU, MR. JONES?
12
THE WITNESS: CAN YOU GIVE ME ANY IDEA HOW LONG THAT'S 13
LIKELY TO BE ? 14
THE COURT: WE HAVE SEVEN MORE QUESTIONS LIKE THAT 15
RIGHT OVER HERE. 16
MR, HULLVERSON: AS SOON AS WE RUN OUT OF JURORS. 17
THE COURT: THE COURT WOULD THINK THAT SHOULD INVOLVE IB
A WEEK, PROBABLY GOING TO INVOLVE A WEEK AND NOT MORE THAN 19
TWO WEEKS. THAT'S ABOUT THE BEST I CAN ESTIMATE, BECAUSE 1
20
DON'T KNOW WHAT WILL GO ON.
21
MR. liCERS: IF THE COURT PLEASE, I'M SURE COUNSEL CAN
22
GET TOGETHER AND STIPULATE. WE CAN DEAL WITH THIS MATTER 23
AS FAR AS MR. JONES IS CONCERNED IN A LOT SHORTER TIME THAN 24
THAT . 25
130
1 i mi. amp. i : COUNSEL WILL STIPULATE AS TO YOUR SCHLDLI
2 P R i) V I OLD YOU'RE NOT LEAVING FOR SIX MONTHS.
3 il
THE WITNESS: WELL, I THINK THAT WOULD PRESENT NO
4 PROBLEM IF IT COULD BE DONE IN A REASONAPLY PRACTICABLE TIME
5 THE COURT: SOMETHING WITHIN TWO WEEKS?
THE WITNESS I WOULD HOPE IT WOULD BE SOONER THAN THAT
6
7 MR. BEERS: IF THE COURT PLEASE, I WOULD HOPE THAT WE
I-
B I, COULD DISPOSL OF THIS MATTER IN THE NEXT DAY OR TWO.
I
9i i!
the court:
i think it's probaely good to have a
j' RECESS AT THIS POINT.
10
WE'LL TAKE A TEN-MINUTE RECESS AND
jj YOU'LL RESUME THE STAND.
11
(RECESS.)
12
13 ,
14 |' a
(THE JURY RLTuRNED TO THE COURTROOM; the witness reslmed the stand.)
16 ,
The COURT: MR. ShOEMAKE.
MR. ShOIMAKL: 1 HANK >OU. JUST A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS 17
YOUR HONOR. 18
19
REDIRECT EXAMINATION (CONTINUED)
BY MR. SHOEMAKE:
20
Q. MR. JONES, JUST SO THAT I'M CLEAR, SIR, THE
21
EXTRACT OF THE MINUTES OF KEASBEY AND MATT I SON THAT YOU HAVE
22
WERE EXTRACTS TAKEN FROM THE COMPLETE SET OF MI NUTES ; 15 THAT
23
CORRECT? 24
A.
YES, THEY WERE.
25
I.i
1 ii
Q . IM OTHER WORDS, YOU HAD - -NOW, MR. JONES, I'"
'! 2 j| GOIIJf. ro SHOW YOU, SIR, WHAT'S BEEN MARKED FOR I DENT 1 F 1 CA1 I l N
'] 3 .AS 1URNER AND NfWALl. L X M 1 0 I T f>-M AND ASK YOU, SIR, IT THC'i
4 !, ARE T HI. INVLNIQRY SMELTS FOR THE YEARS IN QUESTION ABOUT WHii" I
5 j YOU'VE HE R E T (U OR E TESTIFIED?
6 jj
A. YOU WOULD NOT WANT ME TO GO THROUGH THEM ALL U\:
7 !: B Y ONE ; DO YOU ?
Q . NO, SIk .
ii
9 |l ||
10 j, ARt
A. MAY I JUST EXAMINE THEM AND SEE?
INDEED THF. SCHEDULES FROM 1 9 3 9 TO 1 9 5 7 .
YES, THESE
n j. \\
12 ; TML
Q. REGULAR
AND THOSE SCHEDULES WERE KEPT AND MAIN T A INL O COURSC OF BUSINESS BY YOU, SIR?
M.
ii
13 II
A. THEY WERE.
MR. ^HOEMAKE: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Tut COURT: ALL RIGHT.
IS THERE FURTHER EXAM i NAT i
MR. MOTLEY: YES, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: MR. MOTLEY, RECROSS.
RECROSS -EXAM I NAT ION
I Li Y MR . MOTLEY: 19 i'
I
20 1
Q. MR. JONES, YOU LEFT TURNER AND NEWALL,
i b r l i _ . i:
YOU TOLD ME, IN APRIL 1980; IS THAT CORRECT?
21
A. THAT'S CORRECT.
22
23 I
Q. AMD PRIOR TO THAT TIME, THERE WAS THIS COMP ; L T ; ON
Ii 0 F ALL THESE RECORDS WHICH ARE BACK THERE, 1 ASSUME IN T H1- 5 : 24
IFILE CABINETS THAT ARE NOW IN THE COURTHOUSE; IS THAT CORRE'T? 25 i|
132
1 A . THAT ' S CORRtt. T .
2 Q. AND PCRSONNLL AT TURNERAND NEWALL, WITH YC -
3 ASS I b 1 Alu.l , wl NT THROUt.ll THESE RECORDSAND PULLED T OK C T HI !' 4 ALL Ul TMFSL C'OCUMENTS WHICH ARE REFLECTED BY WHAT'S IN Tl"
5 COURTROOM; IS THAT CORRECT?
6 A. THAT lS CORRECT .
7 Q. AND THEY WERE READILY AVAILABLE TO TURNER AND
8 NEWALL PERSONNEL; IS THAT CORRECT?
9 A. THEYWERE READILY AVAILABLE TO ME--
10 Q. YES.
11 A. --BUT ONCE THEY WERE TAKEN OUT AND PLACED, T>; .
12 FOR USE, THEY WOULD HAVE 8 E E N AVAILABLE TO OTHER PEOPLE.
13 Q. BUT THEY WERE AVAILABLE PRIOR TO YOUR LEAV1N. -NO 14 YOU MADE USE OF THOSE DOCUMENTS; IS THAT CORRECT?
A. NOT VERY MUCH, MYSELF, IN FACT. 15
16 Q. WELL, WHO DID YOU GIVE THEM TO?
1 7 A. I GAVE ThCM TO THE REPRESENTATIVES OF SULL I
18 AND CROMWELL.
19 ii. WHICH REPRESENTATIVES OF SULLIVAN AND CROUW
DID YOU GIVr THEM TO?
20
A. THEY VAR I ED. SOMETIMES--
21
Q.
THERE'S ABOUT SIX LAWYERS SITTING BACK THlI-
r
22
The DALE, of THAT ROOM. I KNOW ONE OF THEM IS FROM LNGL'". 73
EDI Till OTHER F I VE - -ARE FOUR OF THEM FROM SULLIVAN AND 24
CROMWL LL IN NEW YORK > 25
133
1 A. WELL, I LAN SEE THREE THAT I REMEMBER COM|N<. . 1 u
2 mu-' THIS PURPOSE AND TWO MORE THAT I DON'T THINK I DO P ET *': * * ' F . 3 0. ONE. Of Them IS FROM SOUTH CAROLINA; I KNOW :
J A. WRITE HIM OFF THEN. ONE IS FROM THE U.K.,
5 I ONI I DON'T KNOW, AND THL OTHERS I DO.
J|
6
Q. HE REPRESENTS TURNER AND NEWALL ALSO. SO V"
7 != TURNED OVER IhESE RECORDS TO SOME LAWYERS FROM SULLIVAN AN
B CROMWELL WHO REPRESENT TURNER AND NEWALL'S INTERESTS IN t-
9 UNITED STATES; IS THAT CORRECT? 'l ;l II A. THAT'S CORRECT.
10
Q. DO YOU KNOW THE GENTLEMAN THAT'S SEATED Thi *:
11
IN THE FIRST ROW OF THE BENCH BACK THERE, MR. ATKINSON?
12
A . 1 DO . 13
0 . WOULD you tell the jury WHO HE MIGHT BE *? 14
15
16
17 CALL
18 i
19 I
20
21
22
il 2J
24
25 | i
A . HE'S TURNER AND NEWALL LIMIT EC'S SOL IC1 TOR . 0 WOULD YOU TELL THE JURY WHAT T hA T ME AN S ? A . 1 THINK IT'S THE EQUIVALENT OF WHAT YOU WO'JLC 1 1 N - HOUSE COUNSEL. Q. HE ' S A lawyer? A . HE ' S A LAWYER. Q- R J GHT. AND YOU'RE A LAWYER? A. 1 WAS . Q. YOU WERE? A . THIRTY years AGO. Q- OKAY . BUT DO YOU HAVE legal TRAINING?
134
1 A . YES .
2 . ALL RIGHT. f.OW, WHEN TURNER AND NEWALL SOLI' f
3 KLAM:I t A Nl i MATT ISON 1 A C I L I T 1 HERE IN SAINT LOUIS TO CFRT'-IN : f 4 YOU WIRE SECRETARY OF THE CORPORATION; IS THAT CORRECT?
5 A. I WAS.
6 Q. DO YOU HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF THAT TRANSACT I ON?
7 A. NOT VERY MUCH PERSONALKNOWLEDGE.
6 Q. WELL, ALL THESE RECORDS THAT YOU REVIEWED, ARE
9 THEY RECORDS THAT WOULD REFLECT THAT TRANSACTION?
10 A. 1'M NOT SURE THAT THE PAPERS RELATED TO THAT
TRANSACTION WERE REVIEWED.
11
Q. BUT THERE ARE PAPERS?
12
A. THERE ARE PAPERS TO THE PARTICULAR TRANSACT I t. 13 14 Q. AND DO YOU NOT KNOW, SIR, AND THERE'S BCEN
TESTIMONY IN THIS CASE THAT THERE WAS A CONTRACT ENTERED I 1 15
BETWEEN TURNER AND NEWALL AND CERTAIN-TEED WITH RESPECT To 16
THE SALE OF FIBER, OR THE BROKERAGE OF FIBER TO THE CERTA IN - :I LD 17
plant BY the TURNER-NEWALL GROUP? 18
A. YES, 1 WAS AWARE THAT THERE WAS AN AGREEMENT WITH 19
CERTAIN-TEED.
20
Q.
AND THATAGREEMENT PROVIDED
THAT THE TURNER
21
NEWALL GROUP WOULD BROKER THE ASBESTOS FIBER THAT CAME TO
22
THE CERTAIN-TEED PLANT HERE IN SAINT LOUIS; IS THAT CORPL;"' 23
A. WELL, AS FAR AS 1 CAN RECALL, I'M NOT A L _ E- -' 24
HAVING ELEN INVOLVED PERSONALLY IN THAT TRANSACTION, I'M *. 25
135
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4
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M"' M awauj
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SOME A jR r fv*r T
; i::.......;.......... ^.....- ----
T(. PRoviDL BROKERING OF ASBESTOS *,3E=' T ^ .
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1 '' f'^A' tijo r ' 7
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11 l N\! OF C E k I Ai K- 1 E [ 0 ; |> I I ' COkRLC*
u
;1
I ` N 4 K E F AkL ' MUSI ft . ' Ot R HONOR . I'M G. l';G
15 jjOEJLCT tOK TWO REASONS:
ONE, THIS IS
i
16
; COVERED l|
BEFORE;
AND,
TwO,
IT'S BEYOND
i! 17 il REDIRECT.
REPETITIOUS, THE SCOPE OF
IT'S THE
P- L
THE COURT: OBJECTION OVERRULED. IT'S CROSS-EXAM I NR T ION 18
Q. CBY MR. MOTLEY) IS THAT CORRECT, MR. JONES? 19
A. WELL, I'M NOT SURE THAT I CAN GO VERY MUCH
20
FURTHER ON THAT. FROM THE FIGURES WE LOOKED AT THIS MORN IN,
21
i I THINK IT SHOWED THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE TURNER-NEWALL ' I 22 i
,1
"the PICTURE WENT TO PLANT NUMBER NINE; DID IT NOT? 2J
Q. NUMEEP NINE, WHICH IS THE PIPE PLANT? 24
i 25 i!
A. WHICH IS THE PIPE PLANT.
0
130
I Q- AND THIS DOCUMENT HERE THAT WE'VE ELEN T AL > IN.,
2 Ai'iyr, THL COMPILATION THAT THE YOUNG LADY, NANCY, LHC V. `
3 ' '1 ! IN 1 ML MALL--YOU SAW MLR OUT IN THE HALL; DIDN'T Y>,u.
4
:
.
jj 5
A. YES.
i
Q. --PREPARED, IS ABOUT THE SHINGLE PLANT; FIi.hi? j
6i '!
7
A. IT IS. q. so, there were two plants, the shingle plant and
B THL PIPE PLANT. BUT YCUR DOCUMENTS DO SHOW THAT TURNER-
9 ,1 NEWALL'S GROUP WAS INVOLVED IN THE SALE OR THE BROKERING
Of ASLESTOS 10 !;
j! PIPE PLANT;
11
FIEERS THAT IS THAT NOT
CAME TO THE CORRECT?
SAINT
LOUIS PLANT,
Th|
>
!| 12 i|
l! THAT
13 r
11
14
A. WELL, I S CORRECT .
MR. MOTLEY:
YES, CAME TO ONE OR THE OTHER OF T M f. I I.ANTS may I APPROACH THE WITNESS, YC-UR HCN'i-
j
15
THE COURT: YOU MAY.
Q. (BY MR. MOTLEY) SIR, I'M GOING TO HAND YOU an 16
AFFIDAVIT SIGNED BY THE SOLICITOR, MR. JOHN MASON ATKINSON, 17
I 'about WHAT TURNER-NEWALL DID OR DID NOT DO IN THE STATE 0; 18
Missouri and ask you to look at paragraphs numper io and cmper
19
, 12 AND TELL THE JURY WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS A TRUE STATEMENT OF
20
WHAT TURNER-NCWALL DID OR DID NOT DO IN THE STATE OF MISS' "RI?
21
A. YES, I READ THAT.
22
! 23
il
24
Q. THAT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE; IS IT? A. WELL, I'M NOT SURE THAT IT ISN'T. WHERE I
CLRTAIN-TLCD, IN FACT? THERE WAS an AGREEMENT WITH CLL' '< ' 25
- rI c
1 37
1 SIR? MR. JUNES, YOU JUST SAID THAT THf fit
2 AM A'-RI ( ML Ml RCACHED BETWEEN TURNER-ME WALL AND CERTAIM-lfLO.
I
3 I MAT TuRNfcR-NE WALL WOULD BROKER FIBER TO THE CERT A I f.-T EL D I n
4 PLANT IN SAINT LOUIS. DIDN'T YOU SAY THAT JUST A FEW MINUTrS
' AGO? 5
,1 ,1
l! 6
A.
WELL, IF I DID, I'M NOT SURE THAT'S RIGHT.
" N
!
7 j YOU'RE MAKI N(, AM AGREEMENT WITH THE COMPANY, IT DOESN'T S i . I < i
8 : AS TO WHICH PLANT YOU SHOULD DELIVER, SIR. I
9 I
Q. WELL, IT PARAGRAPH 12 SAYS THAT, "1 GAVE
j INSTRUCTIONS TO THE INDIVIDUALS RESPONSIBLE FOR SALES,
10
i
' INCLUDING TURNER ASBESTOS FIBRES, MAINTAINED IN THE REG'J.`-
11
i'
"i COURSE
12
ij
OF TULIP. BUSINESS,
AND CONTAINS ANY REFERENCE
TO
13 j ANT SALES IN ANY COMPANIES LOCATED IN MISSOURI, INCLUDING i
14 ; THE SAINT LOUIS D I V 1 S l Or; CF CEP TAIN-TEED CORPORATION/1 a:,
15 Ii THLRC WERE NONE --AND I HANDED YOU THIS DOCUMENT YESTERD'-'1
16 AND I HAND IT TO YOU AGAIN, SIR, WHICH WAS PRODUCED PY
17 : TURNER-NEWALL--DOES THAT NOT REFLECT, SIR, THAT THERE W;i1
18 I, DOCUMENTS THAT SHOWED THAT TURNER ASBESTOS FIBRES WAS S E L i
i FIBER TO THE SAINT LOUIS PLANT? 19
!
A. I DON'T THINK IT DOES; DOES IT?
20
!
21
Q. YOU DON'T? WELL, LET'S READ IT.
.! 22 i
A. THIS IS STUFF THAT V.'E'RE SELLING TO CERTAIN
'i j! WHERE CCRTAIN-TEED DECIDED TO SEND IT AFTERWARDS DOES NOT 23
!; REALLY LMERGC ; DOES IT? 24 l[
I,
25 II
Q. DID YOU LOOK AT THE NEXT LETTER,
SIR?
,
I 138
1 A . I 'M SORRY . I WAS LOOKING AT THE TOP ONE.
2 Q. ABOUT THE SAINT LOUIS PLANT.
3
MR. /li.SON:
MR. MOTLEY, FOR THE RECORD, WOULD " ' 1 VI
4 THE EXHIBIT NUMBER SO THE RECORD IS CLEAR?
5
MR. MOTLEY:
I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS. I WOULD LO'. :J
6 II I KNEW IT. MAY E F SOMEBODY CAN GIVE IT TO ME. 7 MR. MORGAN: ISN'T IT MARKED ON THE DOCUMENT?
B THE COURT: DOES IT HAVE AN EXHIBIT NUMBER, MR. J..\ : 9 letter i
10
the WITNESS
YES, IT DOES , YOUR HONOR
HH - ] .
i 1 the COURT : mh-1 , COUNSEL . MR . WILSON: THANK YOU.
12
THE COURT: (. LR T A | NL Y . 13 14 the W|TNESS : YES, I SCE IT THERE. DO YOU WANT
Rt AD ANY other ONES FIRST? 15
D. (BY MR. MOTLEY) ISN'T IT TRUE, MR. DOMES, I 16
You HAS RECORDS THAT REFLECTED THAT TURNER ASBESTOS FIBRE' 17
j KNEW Th,T FIBERS WERE BEING SHIPPED TC THIS SAINT LOUIS 18
I DON'T THOSE DOCUMENTS PROVE THAT? 19
| A. THAT MUST BE SO.
20
Q. IT IS SO; IS THAT CORRECT?
21
A. THAT'S CORRECT .
22
Q. SO PARAGRAPH -- THAT'S P 71 1 IS THE DOCUMENT 23
[' NUMBER. SO WHEN MR. ATKINSON, ThE LAWYER OF TURNER-NEWAl ! . 24
I 25 :I SAID THAT "I I WAS REPORTED TO ME BY THOSE TO WHOM THESE
139
1 >'. ' ll i::s MAD BLEU SENT , THAT NONE OF THE EIGHT
2'
11 r: r OF THEM BEING TURNER ASBESTOS F I BH S, .l-Ti
3 I' A ( a ' i R A i r i MUIR, has Amy RECORD OF ANY sale AT AN Y TIME V
4 SAINT LOUIS DIVISION OF CERTAIN-TEED CORPORATION," THAT'S
5 FAlSL ; ISN'T IT?
A. NO, IT ISN'T. THIS ISN'T A SALE FROM
6
7 CERTAIN-TEED TO THE SAINT LOUIS PLANT.
e Q. WHAT IS IT?
g A. WELL, THIS IS A DIRECTION THAT STUFF THAT T.A.F.;
WAS SlLLINC, TO CERTAI N-TEED THAT WAS TO BE DELIVERED TO A PD-T
10
THAT MADE IT AVAILABLE TO GO TO THE VARIOUS PLANTS. BUT I-
11
THEY CARED TO SPECIFY WHAT PORT THEY WANTED IT DELIVERED TO,
12
THAT'S THF.IR BUSINESS. 13
Q . I SEE . 14
A. 1 MEAN, IT MAY LE A POSSIBILITY TO ARGUE Th-'.: 15
KNEW THAT THAT WAS THE ULTIMATE DESTINATION ON THIS OCCASION. 16
Q. YES. 17
A. BUT AS FARAS THEY WERE CONCERNED, THIS WAS r[ - : lf 18
A SHIPPING DIRECTION. 19
Q. I SEE. NOW, MR. JONES, DO YOU KNOW THAT TURN!-
20
AND NEWALL TOOK THE POSITION THAT THEY DIDN'T DO ANY BUSINL.v.
21
IN THE STATE OF MISSOURI IN THIS COURT?
22
A. I READ THAT, YES. 23
MR. SHOEMAKE: YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO OBJECT. T ! 24
WITNESS IS FETIRED AND WHAT LEGAL POSITION WE'VE TAKEN I: 25
140
1 ! R L LlVANT TO the TESTIMONY. Il ij
2
: I1
THE COURT: I THINK WE'VE EXPLORED THIS PARTICULA-
:i ii 3 I GROUND PRETTY WELL, MR. MOTLEY.
I THINK HE'S ANSWERED T'U.
ji
4 ! QUEST ION. I:
j 5
li
MR. motley:
| YOUR HONOR?
6
MAY I GET AN ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION,
j
7 i;
THE COURT: GET AN ANSWER AND THEN LET'S MOVE ON.
Ij DON'T ASK HIM THE SAME QUESTION THREE TIMES.
8 il
|| 9 ||
Q. (BY MR. MOTLEY)' DO YOU KNOW THAT TURNER AND
ij
I! NEWALL, WHICH OWNED THE KEASBEY AND MATT I SON PLANT LOCK,
10
'STUCK AND BARREL, EVERY SHARE OF STOCK IN IT UNTIL 1962
11
, II WAS SOLD TO CERTAIN-TEED, AND THEN OWNED SEVENTEEN PE--, N'
12
| OF THE STOCK OF CERTAIN-TEED AND HAD A CONTRACT TO BRO`[-' 13 MI
! riBLR TO The CERTA I N-TELC PL'ANTS IN SAINT LOUIS, AND A? `
14
H CORL'S REFLECT, SENT AGENTS OVER FROM ENGLAND TO SA,N' . 15
_lA|MLD T HE I NEVER HAD ANY CONTACT WITH THE STATE ( K MIS. lb
'SIR? 17 I
1
18 i,
DID YUU KNOW THAT ?
MP.. SHOEMAKE;
I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO THE FORM OF r-i
i QULSTION. 19
i ! THE
20
COURT:
OBJECTION SUSTAINED.
Q. (BY MR. MOTLEY) NOW, ALL OF THESE RECORDS,
21
j MR. JONES, HOW MANY TONS OF ASBESTOS WERE SHIPPED BY EVERY:nDY
22
i INTO THE SAINT LOUIS PLANT?
23
I I
DO YOU KNOW?
24 i
A . IDO NO 7.
1
25
Q. THOUSANDS OF TOMS A YEAR?
i 141 'i
1 A. thousands oh tons.
2 Q. SIR? YOU WOULD AGREE WITH THAT?
3 A . I WOULD AGREE TO THAT. 4 Q so thousands of tons of aseestos fiber w:-5 AH I I'Ll D 1 N HERE BY VARIOUS OF THESE ASBESTOS COMPANIES
6 . YEAR FOR A THIRTY-YEAR PERIOD OF TIME; IS THAT CORRECT?
7 1 DON'T THINK THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF TONS L -.1
8
It ah.
you're: talking in terms of lots of maybe TWO o?
9 H'JNURI I) and LESS. HOW MANY, I CANNOT SAY.
10 Q- SOME YEARS, THERE WERE THOUSANDS OF TON?
11 SOME YEARS 1T MIGHT HAVE BEEN JUST ONLY A THOUSAND TONS:
1;
12 A. I REALLY DON'T KNOW.
13 Q would those records--
14 A . I'D HAVE To LOOK BACK. THE RECORDS WOULD S- 'W.
i 15
Q. WFLL, YOU READ SOME RECORDS WHEREIN SOME ....... WHS
16 YOU had TWO HUNDRED AND SEVENTY-EIGHT TONS OF ONE COMPANr
17 ASBESTOS FIBER ON STOCK. DO YOU REMEMBER READING THAT?
18 i. 19 !i
A. THAT 'S R IGHT. Q- NOW, DO THOSE RECORDS SHOW FROM WHICH THIS
PERCENT COME' I L AT I ON WAS MADE, DO THEY SHOW MOVEMENTS; That is,
20
ONE MONTH YOU HAD MORE JOHNS-MANVILLE ASBESTOS FIBER THAN I HE
21
NEXT MONTH?
22
A . YES, THEY DO. 23
24 Q. SO THAT WOULD INDICATE THAT THEY WE RE --JOHN -
'IMANVILLE DIDN'T GIVE YOU THE ASBESTOS FIBER; DID THEY? 25
in- r
14 2
1 L> U L l > IT TO YOU; DIDN'T THEY?
? A. OH, YES. 3 Q. AMD YOU WERE USING IT AT THIS PLANT; WEREN'T YOU
4 A. WELL, IT WAS EE ING U5ED IN THIS PLANT, YES.
5 THAT'S WHAF THOSE SCHEDULES SHOW.
G MR. MOTLEY: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
7 THE COURT: ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS OF THIS WITNESS:
MR. NUMP.ICH?
8
9 MR. MOTLEY: YOUR HONOR, WE WOULD --
RECR0SS-EXAM1NATION
10
BY MR. NUMRICH:
11
Q. MR. JONES, THE RECORDS THAT MR. SHOEMAKE "A
12
MARKED--!'VI RUN OUT OF 'M'S." IS IT FIVE M'S OR THREE 13
MR . mhOEMAF.E : Six M'S.
14
TH; i.OuRT : SIX M's, I THINK . lrJ
Q.
(BY MR, NUMRICH) YOU SAID THEY RAN -ROM .
Ii
16
1937? THESE LAST RECORDS, MR. JONES? 17
A. OH, THIS LOT? YES, I'M SORRY. YES, THEIB
(2. THEY RUN hROM 1 93 9 TO 1 9 5 7 ? 19
A. JANUARY 1939 THROUGH TO APRIL 1957.
20
Q.
SO YOU SAID THERE ARE RECORDS GOING BACL P1
';L>
21
1939. WHERE ARE THOSE RECORDS AT? WE KEEP GETTING THESE
22
RECORDS CNTfRED P1ECCMEAL. THAT'S THE REASON I'M ASKINi.. 23
MR. SHOEMAKE : I OBJECT TO THAT. YOUR HONOR, I'M
i I riG
24
Tu OBJECT TO HIS CHARACTERIZATION OF THE RECORDS AS BEING 25
143
;/
'i ''N . N'JmR | *-h : | ! M| N< I T ' S A fact.
I
'I
' 'I' *-1H i \ \W h,\Y i I1 l NT I I ' A l Ai l . I ' 11 h1 irt'':| . " "I'1, 'liht .ni > UMifijtNiiiN.'LfrSt'A. nNOnSr T IhNA<'"T1PVTIhH.MLL-'JLCA. . l'
. 1 1 * I! k`! fI * <I {t.1. (.F11pil'.i1. ' j ^ aF i fiAl ; l>f.. i'U, ICV. o*. . v R
'' xlN v \ | ' | I
''' ,V` (',f''i'l-S- Af kUL A;
" I' |,: v S. H'DR K'NOR
0.
'<'
^l,T'
Np'MRlcH) WhCRE ARE THE RECORDS
S l'- ! R
11 " > I tvi, iv: . .ivii.il-,.'
I WM: IJ;' ARE THEY?
Q. YES.
I 4 A. WELL, I CAN'T RECALL WHETHER THEY WERE T HC
15 RECORDS I WAS LOOKING AT YESTERDAY. 1 THOUGHT THEY WLR! HACK
ic ; TO THE TIME OF THE ACQUISITION IN '34.
r 17 \
r
ia
Q. BUT THEY'RE NOT REFLECTED IN THOSE? A. riV.Y'P.i: NOT REFLECTED IN HERE, NO.
19 I!
:o :
MR. NUMRICHl 1 DON'T HAVE ANY MORE QUESTIONS.
MR. BCCRS:
I BELIEVE THAT'S IT, YOUR HONOR, F(R w | e.
21 i W!TNESS .
22 I`ti
2J
THE COURT: THANK YOU. MR. MORRIS: AS 1 UNDERSTAND IT, YOUR HONOR, THE
HAS NOT DEPARTED YFT? 24 I
it THE COURT: THAT'S THE COURT'S UNDERSTANDING.
; rr.L
144
MR. SHOEMAKE: HE'S STILL HERE. 2 . THE COURT: NU. MR. MORRIS MEANS THAT IN THE LI .AL,
3 NOT THE ACTUAL SENSE.
4.
AND, MR. JONES, TOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOU V. I 1 L
5 jj CERTAINLY BE AVAILABLE TOMORROW. AND AT THAT TIME, WE WILL
!i
6 | HAVE REACHED A DECISION WHETHER WE CAN TERMINATE YOUP.
1-
7 j SERVICES OR WHAT WE MIGHT WORK OUT, IF WE NEED YOU AGAIN?
8 ! THE WITNESS: YES, I DO, YOUR HONOR.
I
a5
9 I,
THE COURT: WE THANK YOU, SIR.
!|
10 j. DOWN AT THIS TIME.
AND YOU MAY SHI
i1 11 :
CTHE WITNESS WAS TEMPORARILY EXCUSED.)
12
MARCH 10, 1932
14 i: i:
ARTHUR DAVID NICHOLAS JONES (CONTINUED),
1
15 WITNESS ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANTS TURNER AND NEWALL,
i 16 j. RESWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
j
17 I I
ie ;
BY MR.
MORRIS:
RECROSS EXAMINATION
19 Q. MR. JONES, WE WERE TALKING YESTERDAY, I , : icu
20 IT WAS, ABOUT A SUMMARY YOU MADE WHICH WE'D HAD MARKL.'
21 i! A.C.L. EXHIBIT 10, CERTAIN--NOT THAT YOU MADE BUT A r
22 YOU REFERRED TO OF PERCENTAGES AND SO FORTH OF THE a
I 23 1 FIBER ON HAND AT THE PLANT HERE IN SAINT LOUIS, PLAu:
"l *
24 > THREE IN SAINT LOUIS, FROM 1 939 TO 1 9 5 7. DO YU'J RE"i "
I m/
25 A. YES.
Q. AND YOU ALLUDED TO THE FACT THAT YOU had i
i. 1^5
> >t- K-uiKUb,
RLSHLD YOURSELF FROM SOME REC'-RD'-,
1 I'i.Ul!' HjU 1M CONNECTION WITH THAT SUMMARY; IS Thai (_ ;
THAI'S R I i.HT .
3 g. NOW, I WAS UNDER THE 1MPRESSI ON --An < |F |" . - i. N
4 t'LEASI SAY SO--1 THOUGHT THAT YOU SAID THAT THOSE WERE 'Hi'.lNA
5 RECORDS, THAT YOU RLE RE SHED YOURSELF FROM, THE OTHER MOP'.'NO,
AS A MATTER OF FACT?
6
l! 7
!|
A. WELL, AS FAR AS I WAS CONCERNED, THEY WERE. THF
|i WERE PART OF MINUTES WHICH CAME TO ME UNDER THE AUTHENT I r ' I ED
8
i! SIGNATURE OF
9 l[
THE
CHAIRMAN.
l|
10
l|
Q. WELL, NOW, I'M GOING TO HAND YOU WHAT'S PEL':
.MARKED AS DEFENDANT TURNER - NEWALL EXHIBIT 6 TIMES "M," C m'S, 11 'i
II
l! AND ASK YOU WHETHER OR NOT THOSE RECORDS THAT HAVE BEEN L'-PElE
12
j E X HIEIT "M" TIMES 6 ARE THE RECORDS YOU LOOKED AT? 13
i|
14 ]i
A.
RECORDS. 15
THESE APPEAR TO ME TO BE COPIES OF ThE SA-m
Q. NO, ARE THEY THE RECORDS? 16
A. I THOUGHT THE RECORDS 1 LOOKED AT WERE DONE IN 17
A PURPLE INK. 18
Q- YES, I DID, TOO. 1 HAD SEEN SOME RECORDS AT
19
I ONE TIME.
20
DID YOU SEE SOME RECORDS DONE IN PURPLE INK?
'
21
22
23 24
25
A. YES, I DID.
Q. WHAT ARE THOSE?
A . THESE ARE COPIES.
Q.
SO THOSE are NOT THE RECORDS THAT you LOIN:
AT?
A. THEY'RE NUT THE PHYSICAL PIECES OF PAPER '
146
1 I LOOKED AT.
2 Q. WELL, ALL RIGHT. DID Y0U--LET HE J L1 S T I" ]T
3 ; to you this way, mp . jours:
the records that --those ah
ii
! RLCURDS T HERE --THEY APPEAR TO BE RECORDS OF THOSE INVtlil'-'kY 4 'l
I
5 j SHEETS OR RAW MATERIALS ON HAND, IS THAT RIGHT, COPIES Cr
' THOSE RECORDS; IS THAT RIGHT? 6 :!
i A. YES, THAT'S RIGHT.
7 I
Q. "M" TIMES G, THE EXHIBIT WE'RE TALKING Ar ' :T.
8
j IT'S ON THE LITTLE BLUE LABEL THERE IN FRONT? 9
:!
10
A. YES.
Q.
OKAY. YOU'VE HAD MUCH EXPERIENCE; AS
' :K
11
; (-ACT, YOU WERE THE SECRETARY OF T 6 N FOR A NUMEER O''
12
i;
AND HAVE, I SUPPOSE, HAD MUCH EXPERIENCE IN KEEPING PL'. 13
-i,
NOW, II- A RLcORD, A PIECE OF PAPER, WERE 40 YEARS OH', . la
* U ANTICIPATE that it WOULD BE SOMEWHAT DIFFEREN ' L' 15
i l KNAPS, that; A PIECE OF PAPER, A NEW PIECE OF PAPER 16
, A WEEK AGO? 17 |l
:| 18
A.
1 THINK IT VERY PROBABLY WOULD.
i. 19
Q. AND YOU REALLY CAN'T TELL THAT FROM COPIE . A
i YOU, FROM PHOTOCOPIES SUCH AS EXHIBIT 6, CAN YOU--NOT E>'HBI
20 :i 1| , f.,
21
BUT EXHI P. IT 6 TIMES
"M"?
A. YOU CAN'T TELL. 1 CAN'T TELL THE AGE OF THIS
22
^DOCUMENT BY LOOKING AT THIS ALONE.
23 i
!
Q.
RIC-HT. NOW, ASSUMING THAT THAT'SWHAT'S
BEEN
24 II
: PROVIDED TO THE DEFENDANTS, AND PARTICULARLY MY CLIENT, 25
147
ii
1 L'L r E NDANT A.C.L. IN THIS CASE, THERE IS NO WAY OF T L L L I 1
II 7 imi.'SI PHI) I OCOP I c 5 WHAT TMr OR I G I MA L RECORD IS LIFT; IS '
? A. WELL, I SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT IF YOU READ
j -'HU TO', UP I E S, YOU HAVE THE INFORMATION YOU REQUIRE.
5t
Q.
I COULDN'T TELL WHAT THE ORIGINAL PIECE HI
- 1 f. R
6 i. LOOKED LIKE, THOUGH, COULD I, FROM THOSE PHOTOCOPIES THEM
! i,
7 j!
MR. SHOEMAKE : YOUR HONOR, WE WILL STIPULATE TH A '
8 | LOOK INI, AT THE PHOTOCOPIES YOU COULDN'T TELL WHAT' THE CPI'- I f-ALS
9 1; looked L I KE
THESE ARE PHOTOCOPIES.
10 1
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
11 '
1
12 ;
Q- (BY MR. MORR1S) DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT / A . I'M' SORRY, IS IT--MY AGREEING WITH YOU OR T
13
('ESER VAT I ON ,j
MADE ?
i
14 Q. E1THER ONE.
1 THINK V.'E 'RE BOTH SAY 1 NC- Thl
JUNE 5
same
15 : 1I
16 j
1
17 !
thing. A.
Q.
j
18
1 THINK THAT'S RIGHT.
OKAY.
1 THINK WE ALL AGREE.
DIDN'T YOU - -D ID YOU, WHEN YOU EXAMINED THL '
OTHER RE CORDS --AND 1 BELIEVE YOU SAID YOU DID JUST WITHIN 19
.1
RECENT DAYS ONE MORNING HERE; IS THAT RIGHT?
i
1 1
21
A. THAT'S RIGHT.
Q. THEY WCRE HT RE IN THE COURTROOM?
A . WELL, THEY WEREN'T IN THE COURTROOM WHEN 1 23
['EXAMINED them.
24 li (i
25 :l
Q. OH, THEY WERE NOT.
BUT THEY WERE HERE IN 11
148
, ij L 1 T Y SOMEWHERE?
2 A. YES, THEY WERE.
3 MR. MORRIS: THAT'S ALL I HAVE.
4 THE COURT: THANK YOU. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS?
3 MR. NUMRICH.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION (CONTINUED)
6
RY MR. NUMRICH: 7
Q. MR. JONES, WHERE ARE THE ORIGINALS NOW? B
A. IN THE COURTROOM. 9
Q. WELL, I WAS TOLD eY TURNER AND NEWALL COUN5:
10
YESTERDAY THAT THEY WEREN'T If: THE COURTROOM. THEY DON':
11
KNOW WHERE THEY ARE NOW. AND WE WERE HANDED THESE IN LM
12
os' them and said these were copies. 13
MP.. bHOEMAKE :
I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO THE FORM u:
14
QUESTION. HE'S ASK in; ThE WITNESS WHAT TURNER AND NEwa.. 15
I.OUNSLL SAID to HIM. THIS WITNESS IS NOT PRIVY TO THAI. 16
THE COURT: MR. NUMRICH. 17
MR. NUMRICH: YOUR HONOR, YESTERDAY WHEN THESE -
'
18
WERE DROUGHT UP, WE WCRE TOLD THAT THE ORIGINALS WERE Hi : ` IN 19
THE COURTROOM. THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID.
20
THE COURT: THAT MAY BE THE COURT'S RECOLLECTION.
21
DOES ANYONE HAVE A DIFFERENT RECOLLECTION? THAT IS THE COURT'
22 j!
r RECOLLECTION, THAT THE ORIGINALS WERE HERE IN COURT.
YE'.,
23
MP.. NUMRICH. 24
25 ;
Q. (BY MR. NUMRICH) NOW, MR. JONES, ARE THE
149
1 oMi.INALS HERE IN THE COURTROOM?
2
' 3
;l
4
A. TODAY? Q. ARE THEY?
A. 1 DON'T HONESTLY KNOW. I ASSUMED THEY W- -: .
5' l
MR. NUMRICH: WELL, I DON'T KNOW, YOUR HONOR.
!'
THAT'S WHAT WE WERE SUPPOSED TO BE GIVEN TO LOOK AT, Th
6
i! I ORIGINALS. THAT WAS MY RECOLLECTION OF WHY WE HAD MR. JNN 7
STAY HERE.
8
l!
j 9!
1
the COURT:
THANK YOU, COUNSEL.
:
10
MR. WILSON: YOUR HONOR, IF I MAY MAKE A STATEMENT OR
:l
,j the RECORD ON THAT? I ASKED LAST NIGHT AT THE END OF CUE- 1
11
[l
S| AfJU I WAS TOLD THESE RECORDS ARE IN ENGLAND, THE ORIGINAL TO
12 I!
II THOSE COP 1 ES . 13 `I
I; | MR. SHOEMAKL : 14 'i
THE ORIGINALS FROM WHICH THOSE EMU ITS
; WERE COPIES ARE NOT 15
ii THE OR I G I NALS .
IN THE
COURTROOM;
THEY'RE
IN ENGLAND,
16 j;
jj 17
THE COURT: WELL, THE COURT WOULD INQUIRE, THE COU-r
j; HAD UNDERSTOOD--1 DON'T REMEMBER EVERYTHING TOTALLY ACCU-'TLLY-
18 1
j
i BUT 1 HAD UNDERSTOOD THAT AT THE BEHEST OF MORRIS AND MUNICH 19
OVER SOME OBJECTIONS--AND THEY HAVE RUN OVER A PERIOD OF 7*0
20
DAYS, PROBABLY--THAT THE ORIGINALS WERE AVAILABLE HERE Fu21 i
I
j EXAMINATION AND THAT THEY WOULD HAVE THAT OPPORTUNITY. AND
22
!l I GUESS THE COURT'S QUESTION 15:
WHAT DO WE MEAN WHEN i L
23 i: | SAY the ORIGINALS ARE HERE IF THEY'RE NOT HERE?
24 II !' MR. SHOEMAKE : JUDGE, IF l MAY, I THINK MAYBE SOM!
25 |l
I
'11
F 150
1 T M! COMUSlON, AND MAY EL IT'S ON MY PART, IS THAT The OP i !;<*
2 THAI | T HI MV. ! HAD REFERENCED TO WERE THE EXTRACTS FROM T
3 MINUTES THAT THE WITNESS TESTIFIED TO; SOME OF THOSE OR IE- 1 M' l S
4 WIPE IN THE BACK OF THE COURTROOM. NOW, IF I STATED THAT
5 THESE ORIGINAL RECORDS WERE IN THE COURTROOM, I MISSTATED.
THESE ARE COPIES OF THE ORIGINALS WHICH ARE IN ENGLAND.
6
7 THE COURT: DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS MJ-
8 MR. JONES?
9 MR. BEERS: YES, 1 HAVE ONE, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: MR. BEERS.
10
RECROSS-EXAM I NAT[ON
11
L-.y MR . BEERS :
12
Q. DO YOU HAVE ANY REASON TO BEL I EVE --WHAT ' S Tm| 13 14 exhibit number on that?
A . s I X-M . 15
Q. MMMMMM. DO YOU HAVE ANY REASON TO BELIEVE '"AT 16
THOSE ARE NOT TRUE AND ACCURATE COPIES OF THE ORIGINALS? 17
A. NONE AT ALL. 18
MR. BEERS: 1 HANK YOU. 19
MR. MORRIS: WELL, YOU KNOW, THEN, I'D LIKE TO Ay
20
ANOTHER QUESTION.
21
MR. SHOEMAKE: KILL, I'D LIKE TO ASK A QUESTION.
22
FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION 23
l: Y Ml- , SHOEMAKE : 24
Q. YOU HAD THE CARE, CUSTODY AND CONTROL OF ! ,E 25
151
1 RECORDS WHILE YOU WERE THE SECRETARY OF TURNER AND NEWALL;
I 2 IS THAI CORRECT?
I
3 A. THAT'S CORRECT .
i
4|
Q. AND AGAIN, ARE YOU SATISFIED, SIR, BASED ON
'! YOUR POSITION AS SECRETARY OF THE COMPANY, THAT THAT COPY
5 i
j| IS A TRUE AND ACCURATE REPRODUCTION OF THE ORIGINAL? 6 :!
I 7I
i
I
8
'ii '!
9 ij
A. I AM SO SATISFIED.
THE COURT: ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR MR. JONES? MR. HULLVERSON.
'I
10
h
FURTHER RECROSS-EXAM I NAT ION ~
L'Y MR. HULLVERSON:
11
I:
I 12
Q. MR. JONES, LOOKING AT WHAT YOU'VE ALREADY
ii
h
13
"at, |i
EXHIBIT
A.C.L.-10,
THAT'S A CO L L E C T I 0 N - - T HAT ' S A CG'-v-'l
1
!' AS I UNDERSTAND IT, that YOU MADE FROM ALL THESE RECORDS i 14
V; 1 ' E TALLINN ABOUT IN UR D E P TO SHOW THE FIBERS AND 'HE 15
: 'M -lEMAGE 0F FIBERS WhICH WERE REFLECTED AT THE SAINT . 16
i plant; correct? 17
j! 18
II ii
19 Ij
!
20
MR. horgan:
i object to the form.
MR. MORRIS: 1 OBJECT TO THE FORM.
MR. MORGAN; I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION or
THE GROUND THAT THIS WITNESS DID NOT PREPARE THIS REPORT Al
21
SAID SO.
22
the COURT: LET 'S HAVE THE QUESTION BACK, PLEASE 23
MR . morris:
1 JOIN IN THE OBJECTION.
24
MR . HULLVERSON:
I'LL WITHDRAW IT.
25
1S2
1 THE COURT: QUESTION IS WITHDRAWN.
2 Q. (BY MR. HULLVERSON) WHAT IS THAT, SIR?
", 3
A. THIS IS A LIST OF THE PERCENTAGES YEAR PY ^
1 Of THE FIBER PROVIDED TO PLANT NUMBER THREE BY THREE MA^1 4
5 PRODUCERS, AND AS A FOURTH GENERAL HEADING BY OTHERS.
6 I,
Q. AND YOU WERE READING FROM THAT YESTERDAY, AS I
'! PI COLLECT, OP WHENEVER IT WAS, SIR; WERE YOU NOT? 7
i
8I
A. I WAS.
9
;i i|
II
Q.
i LOU1 S PLANT ,
10
1
I'
11
|
A.
Q.
12
AND PLANT THREE,DOES
THATREFER TO THE SA
i:
S I P. ? IT DOCS.
AND IN ADDITION TO THAT, DOES T HAT --DID T Mf
: OTHERS ALSO INDICATE THAT TURNER-NEWALL, THROUGH ITSELF OP 13 jj
I ONE 01 ITS SUBSIDIARIES, WAS SENDING F1EER INTO THE SAINT
14 U
i1 1! LOU I S 15 ' I
P LANT 1
j; 16 (<
A.
NO, THIS PAPER DOESN'T ON THE FACE OF
IT.
, 17
Q. BUT THE OTHER ONES
^ INDICATE; IS THAT CORRECT, SIR?
YOU DEMONSTRATEDTO US D" SO
18 I
j 19
A. INDEED THEY DO.
20 i
0.
MW, am V C m AW AIM-
I Ml l^,r ri|A| I Ul:NI ^ *!i W<\L
:i ORIGINALLY WAS F I GUI 1 NG rKMNo i M I 3 lAwSQIT III Hi . S' 'U1 I
21
ii
|l the THEORY THAT THEY DID NOT SEND ANY FIBERS HERE TO MlSr hr | ?
22
I 23
A. 1 DIO NOT.
24 il S I R ;
25
Q- WERE YOU AWARE OF THAT? IS THAT CORRECT?
YOU DID NOT KNOW
I
153
1 A. NO .
2 WERE YOU AWARE THAT we READ CERTAIN i'! (.'i; \ oh
3 TESTIMONY TO YOU YE S T E R DA Y --AND I WON'T REPEAT THOSE, ic . ' r.o
l TU DO WITH WHAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT --BUT IF TURNER-Nl WALL 4
i`
5 ji IN A PRETRIAL ORDER NOTE
!i I,
INDICATED TURNER-NEWALL KNOWS Of
NO
sales of any of its asbestos or asbestos products to the cert; 6 j!
7
I TEED !l
PLANT
IN MISSOUR1--IF THEY MADE THAT STATEMENT, WOOL!
YOl
8 IISAY i'l
9I
THAT WAS A.
INACCURATE9, SIP? WOULD YOU MIND REPEATING THAT AGAIN?
BEC ' f
THINKING BACK TO YESTERDAY, 10 I
ii
; THAT I read, WERE they not,
11
THE FIGURES in FACT, AT
THAT I R E AD - - T HE THE REQUEST Of
I GL'f-
WAS THEN CROSS-EXAMINING ThE FIGURES FOR PLANT NINE? >
12
'j OUGHT TO WET 13
11 1
l: 14
Q.
THAT RIGHT. plant NINE
I 'M NOT SURE OF THIS. IS IN SAINT LOUIS; ISN 'T IT,
A . OH, YES. 15
Q- ALL RIGHT.
10
a . YOU'RE SPEAKING OF SAINT LOUIS? 17
18 |j
!!
19 |i
!l
20
Q YES, SIR.
A . RIGHT THERE , 1 T SAYS "TOTAL."
Q. 1'M SORRY, whether it says plant three or
J NINE, TURNER-NEWALL, WE ESTABLISHED, DID SEND FIBERS IN
21
j HERE; CORRECT?
22
I! 23
A. YES, WE HAVE. THAT'S RIGHT.
24 it
Q. AND IF THEY SAID TEN KNOWS OF NO SALE Oc /NY
OF ITS AS BC S TO S OR ASBCSTOS PRODUCTS TO THE CERTAIN-TEED PLANT 25
154
i
1 II. MISSOURI, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN INACCURATE; WOULD IT
. ' J R
? A . IT SOUNDS TO BE, YES .
3 Q. NOW, 1 THINK YOU READ--YOU HAVE PEAL) SUM
A THOSE PERCENTAGES FOR US; HAVE YOU NOT, SIR?
s A . YES, 1 HAVE.
I won 10 LIKE TO ASK YOU TO READ all or T
6
7 MR . MULLVERSON: OP , IN ORDER TO SAVE TIME, ASK L
0 IF THEY WOULD AGREE TO THE FIGURES INSTEAD OF HAVING HIM : i
II [HERE AND READ EACH ONE, EACH PERCENTAGE.
I WOULD LIKE TO
3i i
0 ' IF WE can AoREE TO WHAT THEY ARE AS DEMONSTRATED ON THE
SK
CAPER .
MR . MORR1S : 1 WOULD AGREE .
MR . SHOEMAKE
WE WOULD SO AGREE.
MR . MORGAN; THEY ' VE ALRCADY BEEN READ. I SEE 7)0 R E A bON
ro read them again.
! 16
MR. MULLVERSOn: I Dio NOT THINK ALL OF THEM HAD EE
RE AD . 17
i , 18 1
MP. . MORRIS:
WC HAVE NOT AGREED TO THAT PIECE OF ~
in eviden: E .
I'LL A(.RLE TC IT IF IT CAN BE ST'.PUL AT ED 1
13
'don't WAIVE ANY OBJECTION l 'VE MADE.
20
j 21 ;|
THE COURT: THAT'S UNDERSTOOD. YOU OBJECT TO ITS
1 ADM 1SS1 ON AS AN EXHIBIT; 1 S THAT THE CASE?
22
. 2J
24 i;
MR . MORRIS: YES, SIR. THE court: also. MR . NUMRICH HAS THE SAME OBJECTi
;! 25
MR . NUMRiCH: YES, YOUR HONOR
155
1 ThL fOURT: The RECORD WILL SO INDICATE.
2 THE QUESTION ARISES THAT THIS MIGHT iT
3 PI f I. 1 I f I VI. , AND THE COURT WILL INQUIRE OF COUNSEL IF Tul
4 HAS ELEN DONE BEFORE, WHY --
5
MR . HULLVERSUN:
I WON'T REPEAT. ALL I'M TRYINt, '
6 THE lOURT: PARDON ME. MR. MORRIS?
7 MR. MORRIS: 1 ASK FOR A.C.L. AND BELL TO El RE-'-L
8 u
!l 9 ;;
'j
THE COURT: THEY HAVE NOT ALL BEEN READ. MR. HULLVERSON: ALL I'M REQUESTING IS: INSTEAD u`
10 ASMM, THC WITNESS TO TAKE EACH LINE AND EACH PERCENTAoL, I,
'' (.AN T R i AT IT AS THOUGH
11
IT HAS BEEN READ IN EVIDENCE FO= I 'I
PURPOSES OF OUR USE
12
|l
I 13
MR. hORGAN:
LATEP. YES, BECAUSE
WE'VE
ALREADY OBJECTED
!'
' THE DOCUMENT AS SUCH AND ThE COURT OVERRULED. 14 j
' that , 15
your honor ,
sure .
SUBJECT To
!j 16 r
i;
|j
17
THE COURT: MR. NunRICH. MR. NUMRICH: YOUR HONOR, I DO HAVE SOME QUESTIONS
I WITH REGARD TO THOSE EXHIBITS NOW THAT HE'S 18
ii
!l the y are . 19 I
IDENTIFIED V.-IAI
FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION
20
F BY MR. NUMRICH: 21 ;!
j| Q. MR. JONES, YESTERDAY WE TALKED ABOUT THE F A: 1
22 i |i THAT THESE COMPUTATIONS, WHICH ARE EVIDENCEDON A.C.L. EX!'!- IT
23
i; 10, DO NOT REFLECT ANY FIBER THAT WENT INTO PLANT NINE IN ! uf. 24 :|
j; SAINT LOUIS PLANT; 25
ij
IS THAT CORRECT?
i'i1 1 56
1 A . THAT ' S COKRt'C T , YF S ,
2 AND WF ONLY HAD FIVE EXHIBITS YESTERDAY WITH I .51 3 RAW HATCPIAL STOCKS ON THEM; DIDN'T WF? 4 A . WE DID.
5 Q. AND NOW WE HAVE ESSENTIALLY EXHIBITS --OR RAv.
6 MATERIAL STOCK REPORTS RUNNING FROM MlD- 1 9 3 9 TO 1 9 3 7 ; 7 DON'T WE?
8 A. WE DO . 9 Q. AND WE HAVE, ON THOSE SHEETS, REFLECTED THL
10 AMUUNt OF FIBER SENT INTO PLANT NINE FROM THE VARIOUS
11 MANUFACTURERS, MINES, OP WHATEVER--WHOEVER WAS SENDING T>U.
12 FIBER IN; DUN 'T WE ?
13 A . WE DO .
14 g. NOV.1, DO YOU REMEMBERYESTERDAY WHENWE WENT
TrtPuuGH THESE, ONE [' Y CNE, AND I'CUND OUT IF JOHNS-MANV I L l 15 16 HAD SENT ANY FIBER INTO PLANT NINE?
1 7 A. YES. g. I'D LIFE YOU TO LOOK AT THEM AGAIN, STARTIN
18 19 FROM 19 3 9, TO SEE --F OR THE YEAR 1 939 , DO YOU SEE ANY JOh:
MANVILLE FIBER GOING INTO PLANT NINE?
20
A.
I'M LOOKING
AT THEFIRST
PAGE, WHICH IS
21
JANUARY ONLY.
22
g. YES, SIR. YOU DON'T HAVE TO--AT THIS PO IN :
2j
T I Ml , MR. JONES, YOU DON'T HAVE TO REFLECT WHO ELSE MIG-!. 24
SENT FIBER IN THERE, JUST WHETHER OR NOT JOHNS-MANV1LLE Dll . 25
157
1 A. NO.. ON THIS, THE FIRST MONTH, THE FIBER Is ra;;
I
2
; DIVIDED i
AS
BETWEEN
THE
SUPPLIERS.
IT IS DIVIDED INTO, I THiNi ,
I
3 THREE DIFFERENT TYPES OF FIBER: CRUDE, SPINNING, SHINGLE
! FIBER . 4
II
5 j Q.
MR. JONES, I REALIZE THE FIRST FIVE OR SIX PAUL^
DON'T REFLECT ANY--DON'T GIVE ANY PARTICULAR TYPE OR GRADE Or
6
7 I FIBER OR THE NAME OF THE COMPANY WHO MIGHT HAVE SHIPPED THAI i[
jMI'lK 111.
8
WH i DON'T WE GO DOWN ABOUT FIVE OR SIX PAGES INN
,i ,! THAI FIRST-9 ij
j! 10 j!
A. THAT'S RIGHT. WE REALLY CAN'T DEDUCE ANYTHIN'-
T FPl.'M
11
i
12
I HE f I P.ST PAGE . Q . THAT'S RIGHT.
GO DOWN TO THE FIRST Or.E AND
I L i r. T | r Y IT AS TO WHAT MONTH AND YEAR IT IS. 13
!
A. YES. THE FIRST ONE THAT SHOWS THE INDIVIDUAL 14
'NAMES OF THE FIBERS IS SEPTEMBER THE 30Th, 193915
;l
16 ij
MR. numrich:
your honor, may we approach The
ij BENCH WITH MR. HULLVERSON? 17
18 I
19 !
(A DISCUSS! Or; WAS HELD OFF THE RECORD AT THE BENCH.)
THE COURT: COUNSEL HAVE SOME PLANS TO WHICH 1 THINK
20
I THEY'VE ALL AGREED, HOPEFULLY, WILL EXPEDITE THE MATTER AND
21
I TO MAKE IT CLEAR SO- -HOPE FULLY, AS CLEAR AS POSSIBLE, AMD SAVE
22
j THC JURY'S TIME.
23
WOULD YOU STATE WHAT WE UNDERSTAND THE
ji AGREEMENT IS, MR. NUMRICH?
24 I i
25 i
Q. (BY MR. NUMRICH)
MR. JONES, THE PROCESS THAT w-
!II|
i 1 S8
i|
1 I WE n 1 j!
r HROUG h yesterday on behalf of MY CLIENT, JOHNS-manv I ill
2 w`s i ' UII TM-nijr.H, ON THE I IVE SHEETS THAT WE HAD ON FLAM
3 . MINI , TO OETEPMINE WHETHER OR NOT JOHNS-MANV I L L E EVER HAD
I 4 ' FIBER WHICH WAS IDENTIf I ED UNDER RAW MATERIAL STOCK REPORTS
5 IN PLANT Nir.'E FOR THE YFARS THAT WE HAD.
ij
!! '39, '40, '41, '43, ' 4 5 AND '47 .
I THINK WE HAD
ij
7 j| NOW, I WOULD LIKE YOU, THIS EVENING, IF YOU
l| 8 'would, RATHER Than SIT here AND take THE JURY'S TIME while
Ji
g ,i WE GU THROUGH EACH ONE OF THESE, IS TO GO THROUGH THIS EVEN'
5
n : AND DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT JOHNS -MANVILLE HAD ANY STOCK A'
ANY TIME IN PLANT NINE AS REFLECTED ON THOSE SHEETS WHICH
11
Y(j H-VE IDEM"lf lED ' 12 i 13 A. YES. 14 MR. MORGAN 1 WOULD YOU DO THE SAME THING FOR BELL,
SO IT IS ALL DONE AT ONE TIME?
THE WITNESS: CERTAINLY, IF YOU WISH.
16
17 ::
THE UOURT : MR. MCPR1S, DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS?
18 !
MP . M,(; R R IS: NO .
THE COURT: ANYONE ELSE? 19
i
20
MR. NUMRICH: AND, MR. JONES, I WOULD LIKE YOU TO
' '
II
A NOTATION, JUST ANY MONTH AND YEAR AND AMOUNTS THAT YOU FIN!
21
ij SUCH FIEERS OF JOHNS-MANVI LLE IN PLANT NINE. 22 Ii
!i '' MP . MORGAN: AND BELL, TOO, IN PLANT MINE. 23 I! THE WI TNESS : YES .
24
I, 25 J
THE COURT: THE ROOMS ARE CHEAPER BY THE WEEK HERE.
159 i
MR. MOTLEY: BY THE MONTH, JUDGE. THE COURT: MR. NUMRICH, DOES THAT SEEM PRETTY WELL I" C L AP I f r IT.' MR. NUMRICH: YES, YOUR HONOR. IF HE CAN BE BACK HERE AT 9:00 O'CLOCK, WE COULD DETERMINE WHAT HE FOUND OUT. MR. SHOEMAKE: YOUR HONOR, CAN WE APPROACH THE BENCH FOR A MOMENT?
(A DISCUSSION WAS HELD OFF THE RECORD AT THE BENCH.) THE COURT: I TAKE IT, WITH YOUR ASSIGNMENT, MR. JONES, THAT YOU'RE TO BE RELIEVED AT THIS POINT FOR THE REST Or ThF. DAY . IS That right, counsel? AND WE WOULD LIKE YOU HERE AT 9:00 IN Th': MORNING AND THEN WE'LL RESUME ON THIS QUESTION. THE WITNESS: YES, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. (THE WITNESS WAS TEMPORARILY EXCUSED.)
MARCH 11, 1982 ARTHUR DAVID NICHOLAS JONES (CONTINUED), WITNESS ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANTS TURNER AND NEWALL, WAS RESWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION (CONTINUED) BY MR. NUMRICH:
160
1| j|
2
. MR. JONES, DO YOU HAVE BEFORE YOU THAT EXHIBIT
3 i;
4 jl
(A DOCUMENT WAS HANDED TO THE WITNESS.) DO YOU HAVE IT BEFORE YOU NOW, MR. JONES?
5 A. | HAVE.
6 Q. MR. JONES, THAT EXHIBIT 6-M, AGAIN, FOR THE
7 JURY'S INFORMATION, ARE COPIES OF THE RAW MATERIAL STOCK
6 REPORTS WHICH YOU HAVE TESTIFIED WERE ATTACHED TO MINUTES OF ij i THE KEASREY - MATT I SON MEETINGS WHICH WERE SENT TO YOU IN YO'JR
9
CAPACITY AS THE CORPORATE SECRETARY FOR TURNE R -ME WALL ; IS THAI
10
! CORRECT, SIR?
11 ii
ii
jl
12
A. THAT ' S CORRECT .
|i 13 I,
Q.
i; 'pun from THI M
AND THOSE RAW MATERIAL STOCK INVENTORY REPJRTS YEARS 1039, I BELIEVE, SEPTEMBER 1 93 9 , OR IS IT
JANUARY 193'J, SIR?
15 JANUAP. Y .
1G
THROUGH WHAT DATE? 17
THROUGH TO APR IL 1 9 5 7. 18
now, as for plant nine, which was the pipi plan 19
AT saint LOINS, there WOULD BE ADDITIONAL RECORDS, SIR, Wi-. 1C
20
'(REFLECT RAW INVENTORY STOCK REPORTS FOR THE YEARS 1 957 TO
21 I j 1962; WOULD THERE NOT?
22
' 25
A. YES, 'HER' i'0 J L) .
|. 24
I!
W AND THAT'S HLCAjSl THE SHINGLE PLANT CLOSED DO*-'.
ISOMETIML AROUND 1 9 5 7 OR '58 AND THE PIPE PLANT CONTINUED IN 25
1 1 OPERATION UNTIL 1 962 WHEN K E AS BE Y-MAT T I SON WAS SOLD TO
jl 2 ; C l P T ,\ I f. - T [ ! N ; ISN'T THAT P.I&HT?
3 A. | DIDN'T PEHEMBER THE DATES OF THE CLOSURE 0;
4 : THE SHlNGlf PLANT.
I DIDN'T RECALL THE DATE OF CLOSURE OF T1'!
5
. !i
SHINGLE
PLANT.
j;
6
|!
Q. WELL, THEN, I TAKE IT YOUR TESTIMONY WOULD Br
I- THE PAW MATERIAL STOCK REPORTS, WHICH WOULD RUN FROM 1957 7 !i
jl TO lOf-T, MIGHT HAVL SOME ADDITIONAL FIBER COUNTS FOR PLANT
8
' THREE, AS WELL AS PLANT NINE; OR DO YOU KNOW? 9
I!
j:
10
ii
A. NO, I DON'T KNOW.
i1
11
Q. WELL, IN ANY EVENT, YOU WOULD HAVE RAW MATERIA1.
STULl RLPUPTS RUNNING FROM '57 TO '62 FOR PLANT NINE?
12
13
ii ` KNOW 14
A. I HA T
WELL, I DON'T EVEN KNOW THAT THROUGH TO '62. there WERE SULSIQUENT RAW MATERIAL INVENTORY PEP
I
0. AND YOU RECEIVED THOSE AS PART OF THE--A7 1 A r 15
10 THi KLAALLY-MATT I SON MINUTES FROM UP UNTIL 1 96 2 WHEN IT 1G
W A. s S"LU T i; CEP. TA 1 N-TEED? 17
18 !
A . YES, INDEED, THAT'S RIGHT.
1
19 i
1
Q. NOW, THOSE RECORDS FROM '57 TO '62, I TAKE IT,
j 'ARE NOT HERE IN THIS COURTROOM?
20
!
21 ' ' !
A . THEY 'RE NOT, NO, NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. Q. HAVE YOU EVER REVIEWED THOSE RECORDS?
22
23
A . 1 HAVEN'T.
r 24
Q. BUT THOSE RECORDS DO EXIST AND, SUPPOSEDLY, 1
|| ASSUMl , TM| Y 'PE OVEP IN ENGLAND AS PART OF THE TURNER-NEWAl L
25
162
I ' / '. t
1I :
3 . f nu APPRECIATE THEY DON'T GIVE--THE Y
DOt.1 1 All- i'`t.GiK List THE TYPES OF FieER AND THE DETAILS.
3 ! so THEY DON'T HELP VERY MUCH. i|
f
6
rI1 NOT
HERE.
I IMAGINE THAT'S WHY THEY'RE
,j
6I
Q.
li
DO YOU, SIR? 7
WLLL, YOU DON ' T KNOW THAT FOR A FACT, THOUGH,
A. WHAT? THAT THEY DON'T? I KNOW THAT THE SYSTEM
8
CHANGED, IF THAT'S WHAT YOU MEAN. 9
Q. WELL, DID IT CHANGE IN 1957?
10
A. YES.
11
Q. DO YOU KNOW THAT FOR A FACT?
12
A . YES. 13
Q. NOW, I'D LIKE TO SPEAK TO THE RECORDS THAT ARE 14
;i IN front UF YOU. 15 II
AS WE LEFT YESTERDAY, | ASKED YOU TO GO
I: THROUGH THOSE RECORDS AND IDENTIFY ANY LISTINGS FOR JOHNS
16
!l j MANV IL L E
17 i!
FIBER
IN PLANT NINE.
18 I.
Mk . MORRIS: YOUR HONOR, ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANT A.C.L.,
;l 19 Si I'D LIKE TU OBJECT TO THE TESTIMONY OF ANY OF THE CONTENTS
| OF THOSE RECORDS FOP. the SAME REASON THAT I OBJECTED TO THE
20
RECORDS BEFORE, FOR THE VARIOUS REASONS. THEY ARE HEARSAY,
21
NO PROPER FOUNDATION; AND I ASK THE COURT THAT THE INFORMATION
22
SOUGHT FROM THE RECORDS NOT IN ANY WAY BE BINDING UPON THE 23
DEFENDAN I A.f.L. 24
T I li lOURT: OBJECTION OVERRULED. 21)
163
1 Q- (BY MR. NUMR1CH) DID YOU DO THAT, MR. JONES?
2 A . YES, 1 DID.
3 0- AND DID YOU FIND ANY LISTINGS FOR JOHNS-MANVIL L
4 FIBER IN PLANT NINE ?
1
5 A- 1 FOUND ONE.
6 Q- WHEN WAS THAT, SIR?
7 A THAT WAS JULY AND OCTOBER 1952.
8 Q AND HOW MUCH FIBER WAS LISTED?
9 A. THE FIBER WAS 29.55 TONS.
10 Q. WOULD YOU PLEASE TURN TO THAT PARTICULAR RAW
MATERIAL STOlK INVENTORY SHEET?
11
A YES, I'M ON JULY 1952 NOW.
12
13 Q. AND WHAT TYPE OF JOHNS-MANV1LLE FIBER IS LISTED
AS 29-55 TONS ?
14
A THIS IS DESCRIBED AS D-4-M, JM. 15
Q. NOW, I'D LIKE YOU TO TURN TO THE NEXT RAW
16
INVENTORY STOCK REPORT FOR AUGUST OF 1952 17
18 '
!
19
A YES .
Q AND WITH REGARD TO THAT JOHNS-MANVILLE FIBER
THAT YOU JUST MENTIONED, HOW MANY TONS ARE LISTED FOR AUGUST
20
'! OF l<j'-'2? 21 i1
1
22
:
23
A q
1 24 i
A
; 25
q
TWENTY-NINE POINT FIVE FIVE. IS THAT THE SAME AMOUNT AS JULY? THAT'S The SAME AMOUNT AS JULY. NOW, I'D LIKE YOU TO TURN TO THE AUGUST RAW
164
1 . i nvr u' it-- y mu' e t y or 1952?
1
2 A. YL'5.
3 Q. I
d ' MANV I Ll.E ?
WHAT'S LISTED FOR THAT SAME FIBER FOR JOHNS-
j! 5I
| | 6|
ji 7
A. AGAIN, 29. 55. Q- I'D LIKE YOU TO TURN TOSEPTEMBER 1952. A. YES.
i;
8
Q-
ANDWHAT F | BER --WHATAMOUNT OFF 1 CER--THAT
SAM!
9 JOHNS-MANVILLE FIBER IS LISTED?
'!
10
A. ST [ LL 29 5 5 .
j
11
|
12
Q- SO, FOR THAT FOUR-MONTH PERIOD OF TIME, THEY oAi 'I '< ' "iNN hi JOHNS -MANVI I.LE FIBER IN ThEIR PLANT NINE WHICH
W i R i '' r us; D OVER THAT period of time? 13
rha r' `i k i oh r. 14
15 I.
Q . now, apparently in the next month, which WOULD
j' have
16 i1
/. 17 r
BEEN what? NOVEMBER, SIR? A. NOVEMBER '52.
i
18 ii I : FIBER
19
i) . THERE?
AND IS THERE A LISTING FOR ANY JOHNS-MANV] LLE
A. NO; IT HAD BEEN USED BY THEN.
20
21 i
Q. IS THERE A LISTING FOR ANY JOHNS-MANVILLE FIBER
| IN ANY YEAR SUBSEQUENT TO OCTOBER OF 1952?
22 i |
A. NO, THERE ISN'T.
23 i:
i, Q. SO THE ONLY RECORDS OF JOHNS-MANVI LLE FIBER WE 24 l!
ij HAVE FOR THIS 18-YFAR PERIOD IN PLANT NINE IS 2 9-5 5 TONS FOR
25
!! 165
r
1 THE FOUR -MONTH PERIOD IN 1 95 2 ; IS THAT CORRECT?
2 A . YES, THAT ' S CORPECT. 3 1 MR.. JONES, WOULD YOU AGREE THAT ?9.55 TONS i Wl'i 1L ! r f 1 LI i 1 A PERC l.NT AGE OF CERTAINLY LESS THAN ONE PER 'N '
5 01- THt Total fiber used or in stock at plant nine over THAT
6 18-YEAR PERIOD? 7 A. WELL, I CAN'T--! HAVEN'T REDUCED IT TO A
8 PERCINTAM. IT IS A SMALL PERCENTAGE, AN INSIGNIFICANT
9 PERCENTAGl .
10 Q. IT'S A VERY SMALL AMOUNT; ISN'T IT, SIR?
11 A . IT IS.
12 Q. NOW, IF PLAINTIFFS IN THIS PARTICULAR ACTION,
13 LIKE MR . DAVIS, HAD TEST I F I ED--NOW, MR. DAVIS HAS TESTIFIED 14 PREVIOUSLY HL ONLY WORKED IN PLANT NINE COMMENCING SOMETIME
IN THE MID-40'S. 15
AT LEAST BY YOUR RECORDS, SIR, MR. DAVIS
WOULD NOT HAVC BEEN EXPOSED TO ANY JOHNS-MANVILLE FIBER WHILE 1G
17 WORKING IN PLANT NINE FROM ANY TIME IN THE LATE 1930'S,
18 19 4 0 ' S, UP UNTIL JULY OF 1 9 5 2 , ACCORDING TO YOUR RECORDS;
19 WOULDN'T THAT BE RIGHT, SIR?
A . THAT WOULD BE RIGHT.
20
Q. AND ANY POTENTIAL EXPOSURE OF MR. DAVIS TO ANY
21
JOHNS-MANVILLC FICER WOULD HAVE ONLY BEEN FOR THAT FOUR-
22
MONTH PERIOD OF TIME; IS THAT CORRECT, SIR? 23
A . THAT IS CORRECT. 24
Q. NOW, AFTER 1957, WE, OF COURSE, DON'T HAVE ANY 25
1 06
1 RECORD' rnR I'LANT NINE, UP UriTIl 1 96 2 WHEN it was SOLD, as you
2 t e g 1 11 1 ( I'; 1 > that p. ight ?
3 A . THAT'S RIGHT.
4 |j
f. NOW, GETTING pack TO THAT 2 9-5 5 TONS, MR. JONES,
'I 5 |! WHICH RLMAINLD IN THE PLANT NINE INVENTORY RECORDS FOR A
6 ! FOUR-MONTH PCRIOD OF TIME AND NEVER CHANGED, I'D LIKE TO ASK
7 ; YOU A SERIES OF QUESTIONS THAT RELATE TO THAT. DO YOU KNOW
ij HOW THOSE PERCENTAGE FIGURES WHICH YOU ARRIVED AT, AS IDENTIFIED
6
ij
9 ON THAT A.C.L. EXHIBIT 10, WERE COMPILED? I;
HOW DID THEY GO
ij ABOUT COMING UP WITH THOSE PERCENTAGES?
10
ii
ij
11
A. HOW DID THEY ARRIVE AT THE PERCENTAGES?
!| Q. YES, SIR. BECAUSE YOU DID NOT DO THE ACTUAL
12
ij F I GUR I NO YOURSELF; D I D YOU ? 13
1 4 A. I DID NOT DU THE FIGURING MYSELF, MO. THEY ARL
DUNE TEAR p,Y YEAR, AND I THINK I'M RIGHT IN SAYING THE 15
PERCENTAGE was TAKEN MONTH BY MONTH AND THEN MADE UP FOR A 16 jl
ii YEAR . 17
u. CAN YOU BE a LITTLE BIT MORE SPECIFIC AND T[.L|_
10
19 THLSi UHRORS HOW IT WAS COMPILED, IF YOU KNOW?
A. WELL, THIS REPRESENTS THE AMOUNT IN STOCK AT A
20
PARTICULAR MOMENT. THERE ARE, IN THE COURSE OF ONE YEAR,
21
12 MOMENTS WHEN YOU COULD LOOK AT A PIECE OF PAPER TO SEE 22 I
THE AMUUNT Of STOCK. AND SO, ON EACH OF THOSE YOU CAN 23
24
I I
EXPRESS
THAT
AS A PERCENTAGE
OF
THE
TOTAL AMOUNT
IN
STOCK,
AND
THEN YOU CAN REDUCE THAT PERCENTAGE TO A FIGURE FOR THE YEAR. 25
i
167
1 Q. WELL, DOESN'T THAT 29-55 TONS OF JOHNS-MANVILLE
2 STOCK'. WHICH REMAINED IN STOCK AND WASN'T USED OVER A FOUR-
3 MONTH PERIOD OF TIME POINT OUT THE FALLACY IN THAT COMPILATION,
4 AS TO SHOWING ANY PERCENTAGE OF FIBER OR USAGE OF FIBER IN ANY
5 PLANT, ESPECIALLY PLANT THREE?
6 A. I DON'T THINK IT DOES; DOES IT?
7 Q. WELL, LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE, MR. JONES,
8 AND SCL IF TUU WOULD AGREE OR DISAGREE. ACCORDING TO MY
9 UNI'LI- S 1 AND I NG OF HOW THESE FIGURES WERE COMPILED, AND --SAY
10 II v.'.Hi ANY ''A" SUPPLIED ONE HUNDRED TONS OF FIBER TO, LET'S
11 USE PLANT NINE, IN JANUARY OF A PARTICULAR YEAR, LET'S SAY 12 KEASBC Y-MATT I SON . K E A S R E Y -M AT T I SON - - P L AN T NINE DECIDES THEY 'Pi; 13 NOT GOING TO USE THAT HUNDRED TONS OF FIBER THAT ENTIRE YEAI-, 14 SO ON YOUR RAW INVENTORY STOCK SHEET, THAT HUNDRED TONS OF
15 FIBER WOULD RUN FOR JANUARY, FEBRUARY, MARCH, APRIL, ON
16 THROUOH THE REST OF THE YEAR; WOULDN'T IT?
17 A. YES, IT WOULD.
18 Q. NOW, SAY THAT COMPANY "B" SUPPLIES THE SANE HUNL'R
19 TONS OF FIBER TO THE PLANT NINE AT KEASBEY-MATTI SON. KEASBL Y-
MATT1 SON IS USING 50 TONS OF THAT FIBER PER MONTH. SO, FOR
20
EACH MONTH, THERE WOULD BE AN ADDITIONAL 50 TONS OF FIBER
21
SHOWING UP ON THE RAW INVENTORY STOCK SHEETS; WOULD THERE
22
NOT? THERE WOULD ONLY BE 50 TONS AS OPPOSED TO THE HUNDRED 23
TONS THAT COMPANY "A" IS FURNISHING? 24
A.
I THINK I'M LOST.
I'M SORRY.
25
168
1
i or
2
Q. OKAY. COMPANY "B" IS GIVING YOU A HUNDRED TONS fll'R, TMf SAME AS COMPANY "A"?
3 A. YES.
4 i
ii
Q. BUT KEASBCY-MATT I SON ISN'T USING COMPANY ''A ' V
5 ; FIOLR, SO IT REMAINS CONSTANT THAT ENTIRE 12-MONTH PERIOD
OF TIME?
6
7 A. YES.
i ,
8
i!
Q. COMPANY "B" IS SUPPLYING THAT SAME ONE HUNDRED
j| TONS OF FIBER, BUT KE AS BE Y -MAT T 1 SON IS USING 50 TONS OF THAT
91
I! FIBER EVERY MONTH.
10
SO WHEN YOU COME DOWN TO THE END OF
j THE Y(AP, WHEN YOU TOTAL UP THE AMOUNT OF RAW MATERIAL STCO 1l
OF THAT PARTICULAR FIBER OF EACH COMPANY, YOU'RE GOING TO 12 i
jl COME UP WITH COMPANY "A" HAVING SOMEWHERE AROUND 1 2 00 TONS 13
I, OF FIBER, IF MY CALCULATIONS ARC CORRECT, AND COMPANY "0" 14
L-.JM. IN'., UP WITH ONLY 6 00 TONS OF FIBER? 15
A. YES. BUT IF YOU TAKE THE PERCENTAGE S MONTH ' 16
;; MONTH, YOU'LL HAVE TO START WITH 5 0 - 5 0 and THEN maybe 50-. ', 17 II
j, AND SO ON. 18
19 , i
Q. BUT THAT DOESN'T INDICATE AT ALL WHAT THE USAGE
! WAS DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME; DOES IT, MR. JONES? 20 I
j A. NO, IT DOESN'T. WE HAVE ALWAYS ACCEPTED THAT
21
I THIS REPRESfNTS A STATEMENT OF THE AMOUNT IN STOCK, NOT THE
22
i I
S' USAGE . 23
, 24 i|
i>
Q. '
SO, IF SOMEBODY WAS TO SAY THAT 19-58 PERCENT
]| FIGURE THAT CAME UP FOR JOHNS-MANV1 LLE IN PLANT THREE HAS NO
25
169
1 I NO I ' ' 11 > t i of USAGE OF JOHNS-MANV1LLE FIBER IN THAT PLANT ~l ovr- 'oN I nciuD OF TIME; DOES IT? 3 , YES. 4 Q. GO AHEAD. 5 A . YES, AS FAR AS 1 CAN TELL, THAT'S RIGHT.
6 Q- so, the jury is not misled ON T HAT --
7 A . I HAVE TO BE CAREFUL. 1 SUPPOSE IN THEORY YQl 8 COULD HAVL SOME USED IN A MONTH AND A LIKE AMOUNT COME IN, 9 BUT I AGREE THE INFERENCE IS THAT IT'S PROBABLY STATIC. 10 Q. NOW, OVER THIS 18-YEAR PERIOD OF TIME, MR. dOM 11 WHOSE > I0ER WAS PREDOMINANTLY USED IN PLANT NINE? 12 A . 1 SHOULD1 THINK PROBAELY THE C G GRADES. 13 Q AGAIN, FOR THE INFORMATION OF THE JURY, WHAT 14 ARE Toi C E G GRADES? WHERE DID IT COME FROM? 15 A. THAT COMES FROM THE SHABANI MINE IN ZIMBABWE; 16 RHODESIA, IT WAS IN THOSE DAYS. 17 Q- AND WHO OWNS THAT MINE? 18 A . IT'S OWNED BY A COMPANY IN WHICH T 5 N IS THE 19 PR 1NC1 PAL STOCKHOLDER.
MR .. NUMRICH-. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS, YOUR HONOR.
20
THE COURT: MR. MORRIS. 21
FURTHTP RECROSS-EXAHINATION
22
BY MR. MORRIS: 23
24 Q. MY QUESTIONS, MR. JONES, ARE BROUGHT ON EY A
QUESTION 1 HAT MR. BEERS ASKED YOU YESTERDAY. AND THAT QUEST 11 25
1 70
1
ii A5Kt" r0U- 45 1 -- - 0, NOT vou H,.
2 i Rf a<;on rn nonPT TLir
3 I1, ,, f
VERAC,Tr F THE REC0RDS THERE OF CXHIP
3
I
A 1 | f <(_ l, y )
A' rHE5C ^
CINO,CAT ,NT.,
5 (./ . 11 ' r'l \l`)`> * 'AVI' A LOOK .
r.
A . hr DE '"'"I
Ml
/ r \ > ' i :r / 1
t'.t > > 1 ' 1
rt 0. NL, MR. UCNfs. WL'RE NOT NECESSARILY TALKING
o P AlVjU 1 |. ii
rm.
rOrAijfY Of the raw MATERIAL STOCK;
WE'RE TALKIN'
* 1 1 , /,l. Nil' in 11) a j_ j r y 1),: WHAT HAS BEEN MADE AVAILABLE TO MY CL!
1
M ; /i;l, Pf , /-in- ' 11/'. 1 1 . '-/HAT I'OiJ'VL r,0 r IN YOUR HAND RIGHT ThERL i
)2 ;! 1 Ht-f.l i
/pi
ini 1'II (
A . YES . 13
01 1-AI`l p f 1 IA r YOU HAVr |N YOUR HAND THl
14 oK * NOW, IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT YOU SAID VLST:.
L; r ' /I x-j HAD R EV1EWED SOME RECORDS IN CONNECTION Wi'H 15
REFRESHING your recollection, and supposedly in connection 16 !
WITH THAT SUMMARY, THAT A.C.L. 10, BUT THAT THOSE RECORDS WER W i|
I '! PRINTED IN BLUE INK OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT; ISN'T THAT ia p
CORRLC17 ISN'T THAT WHAT YOU SAID YESTERDAY? 19
A. THAT'S WHAT 1 SAID YESTERDAY, YES.
20
Q. ALL RIGHT. THOSE RECORDS THAT YOU'VE GOT NOW
21
THAT WERE PROVIDED TO THE COURT ARE NOT PRINTED IN BLUE INK.
22
THEY'RE PHOTOCOPIES, AREN'T THEY? 2J
A. THEY ARE. 24
Q. SO, WHEN YOU TESTIFIED YESTERDAY, YOU HAD NOT 25
171
1 i RCVIFWLD THUSC RECORDS; HAD YOU? ,!1'
2 A. NO, I HADN'T.
.1 U. SO, THOSE RECORDS THAT YOU'VE GOT BEFORE TOO
4 ARE N'H THL TRUE BASIS FUR THE SUMMARY; ARE THEY? i I
5 j I DON'T KNOW.
OR ARE Thi
|
6
A.
WELL, YES, INDEED.
THESE ARE TRUE. THESE ARE
7 WHAT WL WE R L WORKING FROM. 1 SHOULD PERHAPS EXPLAIN THAT
j
8 , t-i FI1/M L riVL OF THE S L WERE IN OTHER EXHIBITS, WEREN'T THEY,
j
9
WHICH ;j
I
PRODUCED ON THE
FIRST DAY OF
THE TRIAL?
|! 10 -1
li
Q. RIGHT. WE TALKED ABOUT THOSE.
j
11
A.
II
LOOK EI - AT
12
NOW, LOOKING BACK, BEFORE 1 PRODUCED THOSE, T M F Mi, COMPARED THEM WITH THF ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS
I
i| jj WHICH WERE HERE. 13
IT WAS--1T WAS AN ASSUMPTION OF MINE THAT
j! WL HAD ALL THL ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS BUT, IN FACT, WE ONLY HAD 14
;i THOSE 15 j:
that
WERE
required to
SUPPORT the
five
examples of
THESE STQi.K. lists -- IF IT WAS FI VE --THAT 1 PRODUCED ON MONDAY, 16
j 17
i
Q. ALL RIGHT.
I 18
I
A. THERE WAS A MISUNDERSTANDING ON MY PART. 1
THOUGHT THEY WERE ALL HERE. 19
j
Q. 1 STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT IT WAS THAT YOU
20
REFRESHED YOUR RECOLLECTION FROM. 21 I
I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHETHER
i YOU REFRESHED YOUR RECOLLECTION FROM THAT SERIES OF PhOTOCOHI1
22
I WHICH YOU HAVE THERE, OR WHETHER YOU REFRESHED YOUR RECOLLECTi:I. 23 ! i
j. FROM SOME ORIGINAL RECORDS PRINTED IN BLUE INK? 24
'j A. WELL, THE DOCUMENTS THAT I REFRESHED MY R E CO L L t ' 1 1
25
II
| 17 2
t 1) N W: - l T ML FIVE THAT WERE PRODUCED ON MONDAY, WHICH WERE F 1 /!
OF i`( ` . (INDICATING.)
2
o. I MAY BE WRONG, MR. JONES, BUT I THOUGHT YOU 0 -* i ` 3 4 THAT you HAN REFRESHED YOUR RECOLLECTION FROM A SERIES OF
5 Rt LOR -s OUT .Il'E OF THE F|VL P.ELORDS--THE FIVE DOCUMENTS THA'
YOU - - 1 HAT Wt WERE ALL USING HERE; 1 THOUGHT THAT'S WHAT YOU
6
SAID:' 7
A. NO, NOT BY LOOKING AT THE ORIGINAL PURPLE COPY.
8
I CAN LOOK AT THESE AND IT IS PERFECTLY PLAIN TO ME WHAT THEY 9
W L P L . THEN
10
I CAN REMEMBE- THAT THEY CAME IN MONTH BY MONTH.
I CAN LOOKAT THEM AND SEE WHAT THEY SAY.
11
Q. HAVE THE ORIGINAL RECORDS EVER BEENAVAlLAELE
12
TO THE PARTIES, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE? 13
A. NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. 14
Q. ALL THAT'S BEEN AVAILABLE TO THE PARTIES ARE 16
PHOTOoOPIES OR WHAT PURPORTS TO BE PHOTOCOPIES OF THE 16
OR IGINALS ; IS THAT CORRECT? 17
A. SO FAR AS 1 KNOW. 18
q. All RIGHT. NOW, JUST ONE MORE QUESTION, AND 19
THAT IS: ABOUT HOW MANY SHEETS ARE THERE IN THIS EXHIBIT 6
20
TIMES M? ABOUT HOW MANY SEPARATE SHEETS OF PAPER MAKE UP T itA i
21
EXHIBIT, JUST YOUR BEST ESTIMATE?
22
A. 1 937 , VIE DON'T HAVE A COUNT, BECAUSE THERE IS 23
ONLY THE four MONTHS; SO, THAT'S FOUR. 24
Q. YOU NCED A CALCULATOR? I'VE GOT ONE. 25
173
1 A. ALL RIGHT. 1938 TO 1960--1957. NINE YEARS.
2
ii
3 FROM. '50 Ui
NO, ' 57 ?
IT WOULD BE MORE THAN THAT.
DON'T THEY GO
4 A . OH, THAT'S RIGHT. NINETEEN, AM I RIGHT?
5 Q. WOULD IT BE 12 TIMES--
A. IT'S 12 TIMES THE NUMBER OF YEARS.
6
7 Q. SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT UPWARDS OF 200 SHEETS;
e
i' AREN ' T
r
WL' ?
\
9 1I
A.
10 j; ABOUT 2 0 8 ?
1940 TO 1957 IS 17 YEARS; 204 PLUS FOUR. HOW
j!
11
r
Q. I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT. SO WE'RE TALKING AB'N'1
; 208 SHEETS OF PAPER, ALL JUST FULL OF LITTLE ENTRIES; ISN'T
12 i:
' THAT CORRECT? 13
A. THAT IS CORRECT. 14
15 i i
Q. AND THOSE WCRE PROVIDED FOR THE FIRST TIME,
; AS 1 REMEMBER, YESTERDAY OR THE DAY BEFORE; ISN'T THAT 16
i'
CORRECT? 17
I
YOU WERE HERE WHEN THCY WERE PROVIDED?
j 18
A. THAT'S RIGHT.
S1~,
MR. MORRIS: THANK YOU. THAT'S ALL, YOUR HONOR. 19
!
20
THE COURT: MR. SHOEMAKE.
21
r
MR. SHOEMAKE:
. QUESTIONS.
22
THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. JUST A FEW
FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION 23
BY MP . SHC'i MAKE : 24
Q. MR. JONES, LET ME ASK YOU: AS CUSTODIAN OF 25
174
i,
1 PS.U'MM, SIP, ARE YOU SATISFIED THAT EXHIBIT 6 -M IS A TAIR
2 AM. A. uPAT[ REPRODUCTION OF THE ORIGINAL RECORDS? 3 A. YES, 1 AH.
4 Q. NOW, ALSO, SIR, ARE YOU--DO YOU HAVE ANY
5 l.NOwI I ('<'L THAT SOMETIME AFTER 1957, WHETHER KEASBEY AMD
MATTM'iM QUIT KEEPING INVENTORY RECORDS ON A PLANT-BY-PLANT
6
7 BASIS AND, INSTEAD, KEPT INVENTORY ON A NATIONWIDE BASIS?
A. YES, I HAVL.
8
9 Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, I HAVE SOME CONFUSION I WOULD:
10 LIKE lou TO CLARIFY FOR ME, SIR, IF YOU CAN. CAN YOU TELL
THE CM'jgT AND JURY WHETHER OR NOT TURNER AND NE WAL L - -AND I
11
INCLUDE T.A.F. IN THAT--TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, EVER SOLD ASCESUN 12
F ] e L FT DIRECTLY TO THE CERTAIN-TEED PLANT IN SAINT LOUIS, 13
M I SSOUR I ? 14
A. NO, THEY DIDN'T. 15
Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, HOW WERE THE SALES OF ASBESTUS 16
FIBER TO CERTAIN-TEED HANDLED? 17
A. THEY WERE HANDLED BETWEFNT.A.F. AND C ERT A I N - T E l f> 18
CERTAIN-TEED WOULD SPECIFY WHAT FIBERSAND WHATQUANTITY 19
THEY
WANTED, AND IT WAS T.A.F.'S JOB TO ARRANGE FOR WHAT
20
WAS ORDERED TO BE CONSIGNED FROM ITS SOURCE TO CERTAIN-TEED,
21
WHEREVER CERTAIN-TEED--WHICHEVER PORT CERTAIN-TEED DIRECTED
22
THAT THEY SHOULD BE CONSIGNED. 23
Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, THE ORDERS FROM CERTAIN-TEED 24
CAME FROM WHERE? 25
175
A . THEY CAME FROM AMBLER.
Q- PENNSYLVANIA?
A . YES .
Q. AND NOT SAINT LOUIS?
A. NOT SAINT LOUIS.
Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, TELL THE JURY, PLEASE, TO YOUR
KNOWLEDG/E, DID TURNER AND MEWALL--AND I INCLUDE AS A PART OF TURNER AND NIWALL, T.A.F.--EVER SEND, SHIP FIBER TO THE SAINT LOUIS CERTAIN-TEED PLANT?
A . NO .
Q. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, HOW WAS THE SHIPMENT OF FIBS
HANDLED BY TURNER AND NEWALL? A. WELL, T.A.F. WOULD BE THE PEOPLE WHO WOULD EE
RESPONSIBLE, IN THE COURSE OF THEIR BUSINESS, FOR ARRANGING FOR THL SHIPMENT OF THE REQUIRED FIBERS FROM ITS SOURCE TO THE DESIGNATED PORT OF DESTINY.
Q- MAY--GIVE US SOME EXAMPLES OF THE PORT?
A . WELL, IF ONE'S LOOKING AT THE FIBERS WE'RE TALK ABOUT fROM SHABANI, THEY WOULD CAUSE AFRICAN ASSOCIATED MINIS TO SHIP THE FIBERS, FOR EXAMPLE, TO GALVESTON OR WHEREVER.
Q. I WOULD LIKE TO READ TO YOU, MR. JONES, SOME TESTIMONY Of A MR. HARTMAN, WHO WAS IN THE PURCHASING DEPART" FOR (.[ R T A| N-TEED THAT HAS BEEN HERETOFORE READ TO THE Jl'PY, AND A.-( YOU, AFTER READING THOSE THREE QUESTIONS AND Thi-ir. ANSWERS AS THEY ARE ALTOGETHER, WHETHER OR NOT, TO YOUR
17G
1 KNOWLEDGE, PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE, YOU WOULD AGREE WITH THE
2 STAT [,M| NT ?
3 "QUCSTION: THE ORIGINAL SUPPLIER OF THE FIBER
4 THAT CAME TO THE PORT DIDN'T MAKE ANY OF THOSE ARRANGEMENTS
5 THAT THEY WERE DISTRIBUTED TO THE VARIOUS PLANTS; DID THEY?"
AND IN REPHRASING THE QUESTION, "DID THE
6
7 ORIGINAL SUPPLIER MAKE THOSE ARRANGEMENTS TO DISTRIBUTE TO
VARIOUS CERTAIN-TCCP PLANTS FROM THE PORT?"
8
9 "ANSWER: I DO NOT KNOW; 1 DO NOT THINK SC."
"QUESTION: TO THE BEST OF YOUR UNDERSTANDING, 10
THAT WAS A CLRTAIN-TEED DECISION WHERE IT WOULD GO?"
11
"ANSWER: YES, SIR." 12
"QUESTION: AND CERTAIN-TEED DID THE MECHANICS 0 13
SEEINu IT GOT LOADED INTO, LET'S SAY, BOXCARS, ONCE IT 1A
ARRIVED IN AMERICA AND WENT TO VARIOUS PLANTS?" 16
"ANSWER: YES." 16
DOES THAT COMPORT WITH YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF HOW 17
IT WAS ARRANGED? 18
A. YES, THAT'S ENTIRELY IN COMPORTMENT WITH MY 19
UNDERSTANDING.
20
MR. SHOEMAKE: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. 21
THE COURT: MR. BEERS.
22
FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION 23
BY MR. BEERS: 24
Q. MR. JONES, AS I RECALL, STARTING IN '62, TURNER 25
177
1 AND NL WALL MAD A CONTRACT WITH CERTAIN-TEED TO SUPPLY FIBER TI
2 THE CtfTAlN-'EED PIPE PLANTS; IS THAT CORRECT?
3 A. WE_L, l WASN'T SJRE, 1s YCJ RECALL, WhLN VL
4 DISCUSSED THIS BEFORE, WHETHER IT WAS CERTAIN-TEED OR T.A.F.,
5 BUT SUCH A CONTRACT EXISTED.
6 Q. NOW--
7 A. COULD I--DID YOU SAY TO--
8 Q. TO CERTAIN-TEED, WHICH OWNED THE PlPE PLANT?
9 A. OH, YOU SAID CERTAIN-TEED OWNED THE PIPE PLANT?
10 Q. RIGHT.
A. NOT TO CERTAIN-TEED'S PIPE PLANTS?
11
Q . CORRECT . 12
A . YES, THAT 'S R IGHT. 13 14 Q. AND UNDER THAT CONTRACT, CERTAIN-TEED HAD TO
bur ALL THE MBER IT WANTED TO USE IN ALL OF ITS PIPE PLANTS IS
T H -N j j1, m TURNER AND NEWALL OR THROUGH T.A.F.; ISN'T THAT 16
CORRECT ? 17
A. WELL, I DON'T REMEMBER THE DETAILS OF THE AGREE 18
MENT NOW. 19
Q. BUT THAT IS THE SUBSTANCE OF IT; ISN'T IT?
20
A.
I WOULD THINK SO,
YES.
21
Q. NOW, THERE ISN'T THE SLIGHTEST QUESTION IN YOUR
22
MIND THAT T.A.F. ARRANGED FOR FIBER FROM ITS AFRICAN AND 23
RHODESIAN MINES TO GO TO CERTAIN-TEED IN THE '6 0'S AND 24
'7 0'S; YOU'RE CLEAR ABOUT THAT, AREN'T YOU? 25
178
1 A- n1D YOU SAY why did they do it?
I thought he started his question, "why did SOMETHING HAPPEN."
Q-
J'M SORRY.
I'll try again,
there is no doubt
IN YOUR MIND That FIBER FROM MINES CONTROLLED BY T.A.F. OR
TURNER AND NEWALL WENT TO CERTAIN-TEED PIPE PLANTS IN THE
'SO'S AND * 70'S?
8 A* YEs, they ultimately got there by one means
9 OR ANOTHER.
10 Q. AND "HERE'S NO D0U3T IN YO'JR MIND THAT FIBER
1 ' N-"'*. ' V > *: 'V'v .1 . o :* SY URN = R AND NE*-Ll CR T.A.F. CL'll'A'E.-
'pi ip ru
i^u rirE piani oi
rt m n~-r.r.r>*
'J A. YES, THAT, OF COURSE --
14 Q. NO, 1 MEAN TO THE CERTAIN-TEED PIPE PLANT IN
15 i THE '60'S AND '7 0'S ?
16 A. OH, I'M SORRY. YES, I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT WAS
17 SO.
- 18
Q.
AND THERE WAS NEVER ANY DOUBT IN YOUR MIND WHEN
19 YOU WERE WORKING AT TURNER AND NEWALL THAT BY SOME MEANS FI BCR
20 FROM MINES OWNED BY TURNER AND NEWALL WAS GOING ULTIMATELY
21 TO THE SAINT LOUIS PIPE PLANT OF CERTAIN-TEED?
22
23 1
24
1!1!
25
A. RIGHT. Q. YOU KNEW THAT? A- YES.
Q- NOW, REMEMBER
179
1 EE, AMD LL, AND HH, AND MM--THE FIVE OR SIX EXHIBITS T11 T
2 THL 1. L AS BE y AND MATT I SOM BOARD OF DIRECTORS MINUTES AM' Th:
3 INVENTORY I | BER SUPPLIES ATTACHED TO THEM? P EMEMBE P T`i"SF.
4 EXHIBITS WE TALKED ABOUT?
5 A. YES, I DO.
6 Q. AMD THOSE EXHI P I TS--E E , AND HH, AND LL, 'MD Mr--. 7 THEY DISCLOSED, DID THEY NOT, THAT ASEESTOS CORPORATION
8 AND JOHNS-MANV IL LE SUPPLIED FIBER IN THE '3 0 * S AND THE '40'S
9 TO THE SHINGLE PLANT?
10 MR. MORRIS: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THAT'S A
MISQUOTATION BASED --AL L THEY EVEN PURPORTED, ACCORDING TO T-l' 11
WITNESS, TO DISCLOSE WAS THAT A.C.L. OR J.M. FIBER WAS T H CLI . 12
MR. BEERS: EXCUSE ME. I'LL REPHRASE THE OUESTI"N. 13
THE COURT: QUESTION'S WITHDRAWN. 14
Q.
(BY MR. BEERS) THOSE E X H I R I T S --E E , HH, L I. ,
'
15
THEY REVEAL ON THEIR FACE, DO THEY NOT, THAT THERE WAG 16
ASBESTOS CORPORATION FIBER AND JOHNS -MANV I L LE FIBER BEING L'M 17
IN THE SHINGLE PLANT AT KEASBEY AND MATT] SON IN THE ' * 0 ' S A:.| 18
'40'S? 19
MR. MORRIS: I OBJECT TO THAT, AGAIN, YOUR HONOR. 20
THEY DON'T DISCLOSE ANY SUCH THING. THEY PURPORT TO, A, (.M' ; 21
TO THIS WITNESS, TO DISCLOSE IT WAS THERE. 22
MR. BEERS: ALL RIGHT, THEY DISCLOSE IT WAS T H L P l , 23
R1GHT? 24
THE Wl TNESS : THEY DO. 25
1 80
1 Q. (BY MR. BEERS) AND UNLESS KEASPEY AND MAI iIS"N
2 THREW T Hf FIBEP OUT WHT M 7HT I NVEN Tr'R T F S r. HAULED , THE
3 CONCLUSION WAS THAT THE TIBER WAS USED IN THAT PLANT; l^ft 4 THAT RIGHT?
5 A. THAT'S RIGHT.
6 Q. THEY MIGHT HAVE CHUCKED IT IN THE RIVER, TUT I'
7 THEY DID NOT CHUCK IT IN THE RIVER, THEY USED IT; RIGHT.'
8 A. WELL, THEY ALMOST CERTAINLY DID.
9 Q. YES. 10 A. IT'S NOT IMPOSSIBLE THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE MOVED
11 IT TO ANOTHER PLANT IF THEY STOPPED USING A PARTICULAR ARAD!
12 OF FIBER FOR THEIR PURPOSES, BUT BY AND LARGE, THE P R 0 P A 3 I L 1 ' >
13 I S THEY USED IT.
14
Q.
THOSE EXHID1TS--EE, HH, LL, AND MM -- THEY
a.
15 PROOUCED BY TURNER AND NEWALL IN THIS CASE BEFORE THIS I R IA [.
16 STARTED; WEREN'T THEY?
17
A.
WERETHEY?
I DON'T KNOW.
18 Q. YOU DO NOTKNOW?
19 A. NO.
20 MR. BEERS: THANK YOU. THAT'S ALL 1 HAVE. 21 MR. SHOEMAKE: THANK YOU, MR. JONES. 22 THE COURT: YOU MAY STEP DOWN.
23 MR. SHOEMAKE: MAY THIS WITNESS BE EXCUSED, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: HE MAY. THANK YOU.
24 25 (THE WITNESS WAS EXCUSED.)
181
CERTI F I,CATE
1, PAT BAESKE, DO HEREBY CERTIFY THAT 1 AH A
DULY APPOINTED OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER FOR THE UNITED b T AT I. ",
DISTRICT COURT WITHIN AND FOR THE EASTERN DIVISION OF TH{
EASTERN DISTRICT OF MISSOURI; THAT I WAS PERSONALLY PRES1. N1
ON MARCH 8 THROUGH 11, 1982, AND MADE A STENOMASK RECORD THE TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR DAVID NICHOLAS JONES HAD IN NO. ?. T - 2 2 ttw
PENDING IN SAID COURT AND THAT PAGES 1 THROUGH 181 CONTAIN A COMPLETE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF MY ORIGINAL STENOMAv
NOTES.
J !
/ ^' ' o
-r. , A
PAT BAESKE