Document xn65xjwGg3yVZokJd3mjroYE

FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA 3 EASTERN DIVISION 4 5 WALTER OWENS, et al.. ) 6 Plaintiffs, ) 7) 8 vs. ) CIVIL ACTION NO. 9 ) CV-P-440-E 10 MONSANTO COMPANY, ) 11 Defendant. ) 12 13 DEPOSITION OF: TOM LACKEY 14 15 In accordance with Rule 5 (d) of The 16 Alabama Rules of Civil Procedure, as Amended, 17 effective May 15, 1988, I, TAMMY JENNINGS 18 GREGORY, am hereby delivering to MR. LARRY WRIGHT 19 the original transcript of the oral testimony 20 taken on the 1st day of December, 1999, along 21 V7ith. exhibits . 22 Please be advised that this is the same and 23 not retained by the court reporter, nor filed FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 with the Court. 2 The deposition of Tom Lackey was taken 3 before Tammy R. Jennings Gregory, commencing at 4 9:10 A.M. on the 1st day of December, 1999, by 5 the Plaintiffs, at the law offices of Fite & 6 Miller, Anniston, Alabama pursuant to the ADAD21-007649 HARTOLDMON0036117 7 stimulations sst forth horoin. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 3 nr\nTTnn <- mTTniiTn'n nATTnm nnnAnmnnn rU&nfiCi 6c IUKINICjK LUUKI KJiJr'VJKl 1 APPEARANCES 2 3 Appearing For The Plaintiffs: 4 5 MITHOFF & JACKS, LLP 6 By: Larry Wright, Esquire 7 111 Congress Avenue, Suite 1010 8 Austin, Texas 78701 9 10 Appearing For The Defendant: 11 12 SMITH, HELMS, MULLISS & MOORE 13 By: Michael E. Kelly, Esquire 14 300 North Greene Street 15 Suite 1400 ADAD21-007650 HARTOLDMON0036118 16 Greensboro, North Carolina 27401 17 18 Court Reporter: 19 20 Tammy R. Jennings Gregory 21 22 23 4 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 INDEX 2 3 Witness: Tom Lackey 4 Stipulations........................................................................ page 5 5 Examination by Mr. Wright......................................page 7 6 Reporter's Certificate..............................................page 85 7 8 9 10 11 12 EXHIBITS 13 14 Plaintiffs' No. 31................................................page 53 15 Plaintiffs' No. 32................................................page 55 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 5 ADAD21-007651 HARTOLDMON0036119 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 STIPULATIONS 2 3 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 4 between the parties through their respective 5 counsel that the deposition of Tom Lackey may be 6 taken before Tammy R. Jennings Gregory, at the 7 law offices of Fite & Miller, Anniston, Alabama 8 on the 1st day of December, 1999. 9 10 11 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that 12 the signature to and the reading of the 13 deposition by the witness is waived, the 14 deposition to have the same force and effect as 15 if full compliance had been had with all laws and 16 rules of court relating to the taking of 17 depositions. 18 19 20 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that 21 it shall not be necessary for any objections to 22 ho roscle by counsel to eny questions, except es to 23 form or leading questions, and that counsel for 6 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 the parties may make objections and assign 2 grounds at the time of trial or at the time said 3 deposition is offered in evidence or prior 4 thereto. 5 6 7 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that ADAD21-007652 HARTOLDMON0036120 8 the notice of filino of the deposition is waived. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 7 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 STATE OF ALABAMA, CITY OF ANNISTON, O 3 9:10, A.M., 4 5 TOM LACKEY, 6 having been first duly sworn, was examined and 7 testified as follows: 8 9 COURT REPORTER: Usual stipulations 10 okay? 11 MR. WRIGHT: Yes. 12 MR. KELLY: Yes. 13 14 EXAMINATION BY MR. WRIGHT: 15 Q. Mr. Lackey, good morning. We met very 16 briefly before the deposition started. ADAD21-007653 HARTOLDMON0036121 17 You und.0rsta.nd. my name is Larry 18 Wright, and I represent the plaintiffs in a 19 lawsuit against what used to be Monsanto and 20 is now Solutia, I guess? You understand 21 that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Have you ever given a deposition before? 8 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Were you involved in that insurance case? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. Is that the only deposition you've 5 given? 6 A. No. 7 Q. What other depositions did you give? 8 A. I gave one on a government vehicle accident 9 what was known as CCC. Three Cs. 10 Q. When was that? -1 "I 7v i m ci _L -L jn. . i7J7. 12 Q. Okay. I didn't know they had depositions in 13 1939 . 14 A. Well, they had about the same thing then as 15 they have today. 16 Q. Okay. Is that the only other time you've 17 given a deposition? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. Very briefly, I just want to ask you 20 to listen carefully to my questions, and if 21 you don't understand a question that I ask, 22 go ahead and stop me and just say Larry, I 23 don't understand what you're asking; could 9 ADAD21-007654 HARTOLDMON0036122 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 you rephrase it, and I'll be glad to do that. 2 Okay? 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. And the other thing is to answer out loud so 5 that our court reporter can write it down. 6 Now, we do have a video, and so the video 7 will pick up head nodding and stuff, but when 8 we read the deposition, the only thing we'll 9 have are your verbal responses. Okay? 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. And everybody forgets that as we go along, 12 and so sometimes I may just point to her, and 13 when I do that, that's reminding you to speak 14 out loud. Okay? 15 A. Thank you. 16 Q. All right. I understand that you went to 17 work for Monsanto in Anniston in 1941; is 18 that correct? 19 on ^ VJ 21 A. Yes, sir. rV\ * TuTV-l --t p- T.T *0 /"I vvuciL. w a o y*rru/""N 1u1 i -p -I -IS-' /I pj_ j. j_ o i_ --I /""N V"\ T.T 1 V"\ T\ A V\ <--l "'l V*\ !-- /""N O j uij wj_l.ii nuiiDaiiLu: A. Working in the carbide screening plant, 22 putting lids on hundred pound carbide cans. 23 Q. How old were you at that time? 10 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 A. Eighteen. 2 Q. Are you from Anniston originally? 3 A. No. 4 Q. How did you get the job, I guess, is the 5 easiest way to ask it? 6 A. I had an uncle that worked there. 7 Q. What was your uncle's name? ADAD21-007655 HARTOLDMON0036123 8 A. Almond Smith. 9 Q. Is he deceased? 10 A. Yes. Also I had a brother worked there at 11 the same time. 12 Q. A brother? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Which one is your brother? 15 A. Fred, Fred H. Lackey. 16 Q. You are T. E. Lackey? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. I've got your name on some memos, and there 19 was a little -- we had a little bit of 20 confusion yesterday whether you were Fred or 21 Tom, so that helps clear it up. Is your 22 brother still alive? 23 A. Yes, sir. 11 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 Q. Does he still live in the area? 2 A. He lives here in Anniston. V *-J r\ TuT --> /-i vva.D To /-% iic tw.t/'u-v Vi' 1 r -i vi /--r A.iny 4-- lo /"% -v* L-iicic Vune/-%i--PW/--\J-e/-% -r r y u/--\ u-it r-i 4-- --\ -v* 4-- /-% O q l. a j_ lcu ; 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. How long had he been working there before you 6 started? 7 A. He went to work there probably in October of 8 ' 38 . 9 Q. What was his main job, if he had a main job? 10 A. Well, he worked as operator, and then as pipe 11 fitter, and then he become a combination man 12 and pipe fitter and millwright. 13 Q. Did he work in the aroclor department? 14 A. Yes, sir, he worked in the aroclor 15 department. In fact, being a pipe fitter 16 millwright, he worked in all departments. 17 Q. Was he ever assigned to the aroclor ADAD21-007656 HARTOLDMON0036124 18 department? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you have a feel for what years that would 21 have been? 22 A. Oh, '46 through probably '64. Somewhere in 23 that range. 12 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 Q. Did you ever work in the aroclor department? 2 A. Yes . 3 Q. When did you start in the aroclor department? 4 A. 1965. 5 Q. Had you worked with aroclors at all before 6 1965? 7 A. No. 8 Q. What was your first job in the aroclor 9 department? 10 A. Foreman. 11 Q. Very briefly, tell me what your main jobs 12 WC1 C UCL-WCdl 13 A. Well, I worked in the carbide for about six 14 weeks. Then I went to the abrasive 15 department and worked there until November 16 13th of '42. But intermittently, I was 17 formincr the research deoartment 18 Q. Research? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What were y'all -- what kind of research? 21 A. Well, small products, the ones they hoped to 22 get on the market. They would be small mixes 23 or small batches. 13 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS ADAD21-007657 HARTOLDMON0036125 1 Q. Can you think of any products like that as a 2 sample? 3 A. All. 4 Q. Oil? 5 A. All, detergent All. 6 Q. Oh, All. Okay. 7 A. That was started out here. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. They was penicillin products that was made 10 there and some water treatment products and 11 detergents. 12 Q. How long were you in the research department? 13 A. Well, it was before I went in the service. 14 Maybe varied one week, two weeks, three weeks 15 period, and then I go back to the abrasive. 16 But when I came back in '46, May of 17 '46, I went and worked in the research 18 department from then up to '51. 19 Q. Worked in the research department until the 20 end of '51? O "I _L 22 the middle or the latter part. 23 Q. Okay. Who else was in the research 14 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 department from '46 to '51? 2 A. Well, there was Paul Gray. 3 Q. Paul Gray? 4 A. Which is deceased. J. W. Beatty's deceased; 5 Ed Adams, deceased; Simon Pierce, deceased. 6 Q. Ed Adams did you say? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. ADAD21-007658 HARTOLDMON0036126 9 A. J. W. Beatty, John T. Sissons, Wiley Tomly, 10 Carl Norton, which Carl Norton is deceased. 11 Q. Are those all the ones you can think of? 12 A. Virgil Burk; he's deceased. Frank Hardy, 13 deceased. 14 Probably only -- watch it. 15 Q. It does it every time. I'm sorry. What were 16 you - 17 A. All the people I probably think is still 18 living is Wily Tomly. They may be one I 19 haven't thought of right now. 20 Q. From '46 to '51, what kind of products did 21 you work on in the research department? 22 A. Worked on isocyanates, which is foam rubber 23 insulation. I worked on one of the 15 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 potassiums, which is a penicillin product, 2 tetra potassium, I think, was a detergent. 3 Of course, I worked on All and 4 worked on isocyanates. 5 Q. When you say you did work on that, what kind g of work specifically would you do? 7 A. Operating type, chemical operator. 8 Q. So y'all would set up test processes? 9 A. We run the equipment to make the product same 10 as you would on large scale, only that was 11 smaller. 12 Q. Is that called a bench scale or a pilot 13 plant? 14 A. Pilot plant. 15 Q. That's what you called it - 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. -- when you were working out a process on a ADAD21-007659 HARTOLDMON0036127 18 smaller scale? 19 A. Pilot plant. 20 Q. Pilot plant. How many people were in the 21 research department from '46 to '51? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Was there always a research department at 16 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 Monsanto? 2 A. They were at Anniston until '54 or '55. Then 3 they moved it to St. Louis and consolidated 4 with other research departments up there. 5 Q. Did you know a Dr. D. H. Chadwick? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Was he in the research department? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. At Anniston? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you work with him? 12 A. Not as I recall. 13 Q. He was there during the '46 to '51 time 14 frame? 15 A. As far as I know. I don't recall just when 16 he was -- first acquainted with him or the 17 last contact with him. 18 Q. Is he deceased? 19 A. I don't know. 20 0. Where did he go? 21 A. I don't know that unless he went to St. Louis 22 when he moved. 23 Q. You don't remember him being in Anniston 17 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS ADAD21-007660 HARTOLDMON0036128 1 sfter '54? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. What about a P. A. Sanguinetti? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you work with him also? 6 A. Maybe a little. 7 Q. Did I ask you if you knew what Dr. Chadwick 8 worked on? Let me ask it. 9 A. Well, I don't really remember what he worked 10 on. 11 Q. What about Mr. Sanguinetti, do you remember 12 what he worked on? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Dr. R. L. Jenkins? 15 A. He was research director. He was over it. 16 Q. He was over the research department? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. All the way until '54? 19 A. No, I think he left before then. 20 Q. Do you know if Mr. Sanguinetti is still 21 alive? 22 A. I think he is. He worked for the "Anniston 23 Star," the paper here in town. 18 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 Q. After he worked at Monsanto? 2 A. Yes. He left Monsanto in the early '50s or 3 maybe late '40s. 4 Q. And as far as you know, he's still alive? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And living in the Anniston area? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And Dr. Jenkins, do you know if he's still 9 alive? ADAD21-007661 HARTOLDMON0036129 10 A. No,- but I wouldn't think so. 11 Q. Was he somewhat older in those days? 12 A. I thought he was. It would be different 13 today. 14 Q. What about Dr. Edgar Hardy, did you know him? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Is he still alive? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. Would you think he'd be alive? Was he a 19 somewhat older fellow also? 20 A. He was much older than I was, so I'm assuming 21 at that time he was in his forties. 22 Q. When was the last time you knew anything 23 about Dr. Hardy? 19 eOSHee & turner uOUrt reporters 1 A. Probably when the plant left, the department. 2 Q. '54? Do you know what he worked on? 3 A. He was over a number of things. He was over A -I-- lo /--N "I /--I 1 T T V*\ --t -I-- v"' /'--\ 1 1 7"1 -I-- /-I --k V\ T *1-- V"* -l V*\ 1.7- lo f~\ T. T --t /--I one iDUPyaiiatc piuuuuLD , cnika j. l-ii-lius. nc wa.o 5 over the 1080, but he had a bunch of 6 engineers under him or chemists. He was up 7 next to the top. 8 Q. 1080 was -- the product 1080 was the rodent 9 killer? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. How long did Monsanto make product 1080? 12 A. I don't know what years it started there, 13 but from '46 to probably '52. Somewhere 14 along there. 15 Q. ' 52? 16 A. Probably. 17 Q. Was product 1080 created in Anniston? 18 A. I couldn't answer that. ADAD21-007662 HARTOLDMON0036130 19 Q Did. you work on product 1080? 20 A. I labeled some cans, and I canned some. 21 That's all I worked on. 22 Q. Frank Whitney Jr., did you know him? 23 A. No, I don't believe so. 20 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 Q. R. L. Bower? 2 A. No . 3 Q. Samuel Coffman? 4 A. No. 5 Q. And I can't remember whether I asked you 6 about H. V. Moss? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Is he still alive? 9 A. I wouldn't think so. 10 Q. He was - 11 A. He was -- 12 Q. -- that older group? 1O -L *LT /-% lie T.T *0 ri -IS' /--\ Vn -'t Vn "1 T T -l V"* "I /"l WQDyj-'UiJCUJ-Ly -L11 11-LO --t *1-- V"* !-- !-- 1 T*V* r~\ JUD CL L. L.11CIL. L1UIC . 14 Q. Did you see the pilot plant for the nerve 15 agent? 16 A. Yes . 17 Q. Where was that located? 18 A. 19 plant on the north -- or on the south side - 20 or east side rather. 21 Q. Can you describe what the plant for the - 22 the pilot plant for the nerve agent looked 23 like? 21 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 A. No. ADAD21-007663 HARTOLDMON0036131 2 Q. You don't have any kind of recollection of 3 it? 4 A. I didn't work on it but probably one or two 5 days . 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. And we didn't do much then, just probably 8 putting some Pyrex components together, so 9 very -- I actually just don't know anything 10 really. 11 Q. Who worked on that nerve gas product? 12 MR. KELLY: Object to the form and 13 characterization as nerve gas. 14 Q. (By Mr. Wright) You were aware they were 15 creating a process to create nerve gas? 16 A. No. 17 Q. What did you think they were doing? 18 A. I had no idea. 19 Q. You knew it was a nerve agent though? 2 0 A. No. 21 Q. You knew it was military materials? 22 A. Eventually, I did. 23 Q. When did you learn that it was a military 22 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 associated project? 2 A. '51. 3 Q. And that was about the time of the Korean 4 War; correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. When they first started up, what were you 7 told they were working on? 8 A. I wasn't told. 9 Q. Who was involved in working on the nerve 10 agent? ADAD21-007664 HARTOLDMON0036132 11 A. You mean after they started up? 12 Q. Yes, sir. 13 A. I was one; Wily Tomly, Ed Adams, John T. 14 Sissons. 15 Q. And I know you told me, but would you mind 16 telling me which of those gentleman you just 17 named is still alive? 18 A. Wily Tomly. 19 Q. Is he still in the Anniston area? 20 A. Yes . 21 Q. Did he work on that nerve agent process more 22 than you did? 23 A. No. 23 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 Q. About the same? 2 A. Be the same. 3 MR. KELLY: Larry, I want to keep 4 sort of a running objection to the 5 C-liai. QCLCllhQLl Uli CL CD 6 than clutter, move ahead. 7 THE WITNESS: It was called 8 Chemical Core. 9 Q. (By Mr. Wright) Chemical Core project? 10 A. Yeah, CC. 11 Q. And by Chemical Core, you mean Chemical Core 12 of the Army? 13 A. Yes . 14 Q. And as far as you and the others new, it was 15 clearly a Chemical Core military project 16 during those days? 17 A. That's all. 18 Q. I'm sorry? 19 A. That's all. ADAD21-007665 HARTOLDMON0036133 20 Q That1s all what ? 21 A. We knew. 22 Q. Okay. Was it a secret process? 23 A. Yes. 24 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 Q. Did you see military people coming and going? 2 A. Occasionally one came, and they came and 3 picked up the finished product. 4 Q. Did you work on the process before the pilot 5 plant stage? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you know who did work on the process 8 before the pilot plant stage? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Did you know that work on the process was 11 going on before the pilot plant stage? 12 A. No. 13 Q. What was the first you knew about it? 14 WUIACU Uil ail'd -L 15 not sure that I knew anything then other than 16 it - - 17 Q. -- was a Chemical Core project? 18 A. Project they was working on. 19 Q , When did you get a greater understanding of 20 the nature of the project? 21 A. '51, when I was assigned, or chosen, to go on 22 a start-up and operation of the product. 23 Q. Okay. What was your job at that point? 25 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 A. To start with, it was operator. 2 Q. Operating the nerve agent process? ADAD21-007666 HARTOLDMON0036134 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Who else -- well, how many operators were 5 there? 6 A. Three per shift. Four shifts -- been twelve. 7 Q. So y'all ran four shifts on that project? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Was it a batch operation? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. How much of this agent would you make in a 12 batch? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. You don't know? 15 A. (Witness shakes head.) 16 Q. Was it a fifty-gallon drum or more than that 17 or less than that? 18 A. It was probably more. 19 Q. More in a batch? 20 A. Yes. I don't remember how many drums we 21 filled per batch. 22 Q. And it's my understanding you filled -- you 23 had to put it in nickel plated drums? 26 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Special drums to contain this agent; correct? 3 A. I don't know where it had been nickel, but we 4 put them in nickel drums. 5 Q. I'm sorry. I missed the first part of what 6 you said. 7 A. We put it in nickel drums. 8 Q. Did y'all put anything else in nickel drums? 9 A. No. 10 Q. So these were special drums that were used 11 only for this nerve agent? ADAD21-007667 HARTOLDMON0036135 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And then it was loaded on trucks and sent to 14 Maryland? 15 A. I don't know where it went. 16 Q. All you know is - 17 A. -- it left. 18 Q. It was loaded on trucks, and it left the 19 plant? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. How many batches of that agent would you make 22 in a day, say? 23 A. I don't remember. 27 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 Q. In your four-hour shift, could you make more 2 than one batch? 3 A. No, eight-hour shift. 4 Q. Okay. So you could make two batches a day? 5 A. I'm not sure. 6 Q. Well, actually, in an eight-hour shift, you 7 could make -- let me ask you this: Was the 8 pilot plant running around the clock? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Was there a big push on to make as much of 11 that stuff as possible? 12 MR. KELLY: Object to the form. 13 THE WITNESS: No. They had a 14 contract to make so many pounds for the Army. 15 Q. (By Mr. Wright) Okay. 16 A. And you made it as the equipment ran. Wasn't 17 a thing that you push like you do production. 18 You had procedures to go by. 19 Q. I'm sure y'all were very careful with that 20 material. ADAD21-007668 HARTOLDMON0036136 21 A. Well, if you're fooling with any chemical, 22 you're careful. If you don't, you don't live 23 long. 28 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 Q. Did anybody -- well, let me just ask it this 2 way: Did anybody have an adverse reaction to 3 the nerve agent? 4 A. Some of them had some breaking out, maybe 5 allergic to some of the products. I don't 6 know. They -- this one moved out because I 7 think he had some breaking out. 8 Q. One of the workers left the project because 9 of some - 10 A. Well, they took him out. Maybe he wanted 11 out. I don't know. 12 Q. All right. Because he'd been exposed 13 somehow, and something bad had happened to 14 him? 15 MR. KELLY: Object to the form. 16 THE WITNESS: Well, it wasn't bad. 17 Q. (By Mr. Wright) Wasn't bad? 18 A. No/ it was just a rash oir somsthiincf. 19 Q. But it was bad enough that they removed him 20 from the project, or he removed himself from 21 the project? 22 A. Well, I don't remember whether they moved him 23 or he moved or just what. We went back to 29 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 the 1080. 2 Q. Was - 3 A. We may have not started it up by then. I ADAD21-007669 HARTOLDMON0036137 4 don't know, don't remember. 5 Q. May not have started the - 6 A. -- plant up. 7 0. Chemical Core pilot plant? 8 A. May have been just in training. 9 Q. Do you remember if -- do you remember any 10 warnings that you got about working with that 11 agent? 12 A. No. It was probably in the instruction book, 13 but I don't remember. 14 Q. So you remember there being an instruction 15 book for this process? 16 A. Yes, operating procedures. 17 Q. What other kind of written materials were 18 there that set out the process for making the 19 Chemical Core agent? 20 A. None other than what was in those production 21 or guidelines or procedures. 22 Q. Where were the production procedures for the 23 Chemical Core agent kept? 30 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 A. They were kept in 3. desk. 2 Q. In your desk? 3 A. No, in the supervisor's desk. 4 Q. Who was the supervisor, do you remember? 5 A. Tull Allen was one. 6 0. Tull Allen? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Is he still alive? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you remember any others of the 11 supervisors? 12 A. Jack Crouch. ADAD21-007670 HARTOLDMON0036138 13 Q. Is he still alive? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Is he still in the Anniston area? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Where is he? 18 A. I think he lives in New Jersey. 19 Q. Any idea where in New Jersey? 20 A. No. 21 Q. If you wanted to get hold of him, how would 22 you go about doing it? 23 A. I don't know. 31 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 Q. There's nobody you could think of that might 2 know where he is? 3 A. I think he's got a brother-in-law here that's 4 a doctor or was a doctor. I believe his name 5 is Earl Jones. 6 Q. So if you had to get hold of him, you'd call 7 Earl Jones and ask him if he had his phone 8 number or something? 9 A. Yes. I'm assuming that's the way you'd do 10 it. 11 Q. Is Earl Jones still alive and in the area? 12 A. As far as I know. 13 Q. Who was -- for Monsanto, who was in overall 14 charge of the Chemical Core project? 15 A. You mean over Jack? 16 Q. Jack who? 17 A. Crouch. 18 Q. Yes, over Jack Crouch? 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. Do you remember Dr. Chadwick working on that 21 Chemical Core project? ADAD21 -007671 HARTOLDMON0036139 22 A. That may be where he came in. I don't know, 23 don't remember. 32 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 Q. Do you remember Dr. Chadwick working on 2 anything else other than the Chemical Core 3 proj ect? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. Did y'all have corrosion process -- I'm 6 sorry. Did you have corrosion problems with 7 that pilot plant? 8 A. We had some in the reactor. 9 Q. Can you describe the corrosion problems? 10 A. Just deteriorated the equipment. 11 Q. Was there any particular place that would 12 deteriorate or corrode more than other 13 places? 14 a.. No. Of course, that was in the first step of 15 the material. It was probably more the raw 16 material than anything else that it was made 17 out of. 18 Q. And my understanding is that that corrosion 19 caused leaks at fiancees and coirneirs and 20 things like that? 21 A. No, I don't think it was flanges. Sometimes 22 there would be a pinhole in the vessel. 23 Q. The reactor vessel? 33 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 A. And you'd plug that up. 2 Q. How would you know when it was leaking? 3 A. Lose vacuum. 4 Q. And then you would have to go search around ADAD21-007672 HARTOLDMON0036140 5 for the hole? 6 A. Hole. 7 Q. How would you patch the holes? 8 A. Well, sometimes you patch it with tape and 9 sometimes with putty. As long as you had a 10 vacuum on it, you had no problems until you 11 could take it down and probably weld it. 12 I don't remember much about the 13 repairs on it. 14 Q. Who was in charge of repairing the holes in 15 the process? 16 A. Well, it would be the maintenance department. 17 Q. Did you have to get a background clearance to 18 work on that process? 19 A. They did one. 20 Q. They did a - 21 A. I signed papers. 22 Q. For a background - 2 3 A. -- check. 34 1 Q. -- clearance on you. Okay. As far as you 2 know, did everybody have to get a secret 3 clearance? 4 A. I don't know, but I'm sure they did. But I 5 wouldn't know. 6 Q. How many of these barrels would you put on a 7 truckload? 8 A. I don't know. 9 Q. Would it go out one truckload at a time, or 10 would you load up several trucks? 11 A. No. To the best of my knowledge, one truck 12 at a time. 13 Q. And how often would you get a truckload? Was ADAD21-007673 HARTOLDMON0036141 14 it everybody day? 15 A. No, no, no. No, if you made fifty thousand 16 pounds of materials, you didn't get many 17 trucks in to haul that way. 18 Q. Could you explain what you mean by that 19 because I didn't understand? 20 A. Well, today a load on a truck is close to 21 fifty thousand pounds, one load. 22 Q. Right. 23 A. Back then, the load limit was less. So if 35 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 you manufactured fifty thousand pounds and 2 you haul it out on trucks, then it didn't 3 take -- if you loaded them full capacity, it 4 wouldn't take over three trucks to move -- or 5 four trucks to move fifty thousand pounds. 6 So we loaded it probably whatever 7 they wanted or whenever we got so much. I O ! -I- 1/-' /-% TY* /-% T*V*V"\ "1^ cj UUil L. IClllCllUJCl . 9 Q. Do you remember how much of this nerve agent 10 y'all made? 11 A. Fifty thousand pounds, around that about. 12 That's what we was shooting for. Now, where 13 we made that much, I'm not sure. We didn't 14 make over that. 15 Q. That's what the Chemical Core wanted from 16 Monsanto was fifty thousand pounds of this 17 agent? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And once you made the fifty thousand pounds, 20 what happened? 21 A. Well, they closed it down. 22 Q. They closed the pilot plant down? ADAD21-007674 HARTOLDMON0036142 23 A. Yes, sir. 36 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 Q. Did you go to Muscle Shoals and help them set 2 up the - 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. -- big plant? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. Do you know anybody that did? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you know a man named Webber? 9 A. I don't recall. 10 Q. Now, from time to time, they would bring 11 people in to tour your pilot plant so they 12 could go set up the big plant? 13 A. I don't remember anybody visiting under those 14 conditions. 15 Q. You don't remember? 16 A. (Witness shakes head.) 17 Q. Do you remember -- well, you remember the 18 military people visiting from time to time? 19 A. Well, it was a lieutenant came in there. 2 0 Q. Lieutenant ? 21 A. I believe he was a lieutenant. But how much 22 he was around there, I don't remember. 23 Q. You don't remember how much time he spent? 37 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 A. I didn't see him very often or very many 2 times. Of course, I worked shift work, and I 3 worked day shift only every eight weeks, two 4 weeks out of eight. 5 Q. I got you. So if he was there during the day ADAD21-007675 HARTOLDMON0036143 6 while you were working nights, you wouldn't 7 have known about it? 8 A. No, sir. 9 0. Who all do you remember visiting and viewing 10 the process other than the lieutenant you 11 mentioned? 12 A. That1s all. 13 Q. You don't remember the colonel coming? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. How long did you work on the Chemical Core 16 proj ect? 17 A. Approximately a year. 18 Q. That was '51? 19 A. And '52. 20 Q. What happened to the pilot plant and the 21 equipment after y'all finished the project? 22 A. They tore it down. 23 Q. Was it taken to the landfill? 38 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. Who tore it down? 3 A. I don 11 know thst. 4 Q. Where were you when that plant was being torn 5 down? 6 A. I don't know when it was torn down, so 7 therefore, I couldn't tell you where I was. 8 0. Do you remember how long it stood after the 9 project was over? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did y'all ever work out the corrosion 12 problems in the process? 13 A. No, they just changed out the reactor. 14 Q. Do you remember how many times they changed ADAD21-007676 HARTOLDMON0036144 15 out the reactor? 16 A. Just one time. 17 Q. I can't remember if I asked you this or not. 18 Did you ever go to Muscle Shoals for the main 19 plant? 20 A. The CC plant? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. No. 23 MR. KELLY: Larry, when you say, 39 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 "the main plant," are you talking about a 2 Monsanto plant or another plant. 3 MR. WRIGHT: No. 4 Q. Well, let me ask you that: Did Monsanto have 5 a facility in Muscle Shoals? 6 A. The only facility I know of, they started up 7 a chlorine plant up there for the Government. 8 Q. For the Chemical Core project? 9 A. Well, I don't know where it was for Chemical 10 Core or what, but I know they started it up 11 and ran it and then closed it down. 12 Q. Do you know how loncf thsy 2r3.11 ths chloirino 13 plant for the Government project in Muscle 14 Shoals? 15 A. They just started it up, ran it, I think 16 brought it up on full production and then 17 closed it down. Then Diamond Alkali took 18 over the plant. 19 Q. Just out of curiosity, is it the same kind of 20 chlorine plant y'all had in Anniston? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Were you involved in any other Chemical Core 23 or military projects at Anniston other than 40 ADAD21 -007677 HARTOLDMON0036145 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 this nerve agent? 2 A. Not as I know of. 3 Q. And by the way, eventually, you came to 4 understand that it was a nerve agent for use 5 in warfare or potential use in warfare? 6 MR. KELLY: Object to the form. 7 THE WITNESS: When they 8 declassified it at Muscle Shoals, it came out 9 in the paper, "Birmingham News." I read it. 10 Q. (By Mr. Wright) Okay. And you realized that 11 that was the project that you'd been working 12 on? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. When did it come out in the Birmingham paper 15 that it was a nerve gas process? 16 MR. KELLY: Object to the form. I 17 don't believe he said the Birmingham paper. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 1O -L y J_> X J_ III_L 11M 1J.CI II 20 paper? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. Probably '54, 22 '55. Somewhere in that range. I moved 23 from Anniston to Munford in '53, so it was a 41 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 later date than that. 2 Q. (By Mr. Wright) You're talking about where 3 you lived? 4 A. Yes. So it was a later date than that that 5 it came out in the paper. 6 Q. Do you remember anything else about the ADAD21-007678 HARTOLDMON0036146 7 article? 8 A. No. It just stated where it was, and it was 9 declassified. 10 Q. And I just want to make sure I'm clear. And 11 so is it your testimony that you didn't know 12 you were working on a military -- well, you 13 knew you were working on a military project, 14 obviously? 15 A. Yes. Chemical Core tells you. It was Army. 16 Q. It was an Army project? 17 A. Yes . 18 Q. Are you saying you didn't have any idea that 19 it was a nerve gas agent until it came out in 20 the paper? 21 A. No. 22 Q. What did you think you were working on for 23 that year? 42 nonTTnn <- mTTniiTn'n oiATTnm nnnAnmnnn ruomiCi 6c iukinicjK ^uuki kj^j^wki 1 A. Had no idea. 2 Q. You just knew it was a top secret Army 3 proj ect? 4 A. Yss . 5 Q. Was the process similar to the one for 6 compound 1080? 7 A. No. 8 Q. How did it differ? 9 A. All together different. All together 10 different ingredients. 11 Q. What were the ingredients for 1080? 12 A. I do not know. 13 Q. What were the ingredients for the nerve 14 agent? 15 A. I do not know. They came in with numbers, ADAD21-007679 HARTOLDMON0036147 16 not product. 17 Q. So all you knew was: This is substance 18 number such and such? 19 A. Well,, one was BX. 20 Q. BX or VX? 21 A. "B". 22 Q. Do you remember the others? 23 A. No. 43 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 Q. You don't remember any of what you called the 2 other stuff? 3 A. No. Of course, I think I know what BX was by 4 the smell, but I do not know. 5 Q. What did you think it was? 6 A. I wouldn't even bring that out because that 7 would be misleading. 8 Q. But it wouldn't be misleading if you tell me 9 that you don't know whether it is or not. 10 A. Well, I don't know what it was. 11 Q. What did it smell like? Let me ask it that 12 way. 13 A. It wa.s ons of ths incfirsdisnts \*jq ussd in 14 another chemical, but I don't remember what 15 the other name -- I remember the formula on 16 the other, but I don't remember all of it. 17 Q. You remember what? 18 A. I don't remember all the formula on the other 19 product I had used that I thought it was. 20 Q. What was the other product? 21 A. I don't remember what that was. 22 Q. Was it insecticide or rodenticide? 23 A. I don't remember. 44 ADAD21-007680 HARTOLDMON0036148 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 Q. Was it in production in Anniston, or was 2 it - 3 A. I think they used it in experimental or 4 something probably over at the research. 5 Q. Do you know what the experiment was for? 6 A. No. 7 Q. But this is something that you had worked 8 with at Anniston before you worked on the 9 military project? 10 A. Well, it was something I'd smelled probably 11 before. I'm not sure. 12 Q. Okay. The BX product -- just so we're clear 13 -- the BX product that was one of the 14 ingredients in the nerve agent - 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. -- smelled like to you something that you had 17 worked with at Anniston before you started 18 working on that project? 19 A. Yeah, small bottle of it or drum of it or 20 something. A lot of the research was 21 probably a can or small container and -22 Q. But you honestly don't irememheir v/he. t the 23 product was where you had smelled an 45 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 ingredient that smelled like that before? 2 A. No. 3 Q. And you don't even remember what kind of a 4 product it was? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Whether it was a soap or an insecticide or 7 rodenticide? ADAD21-007681 HARTOLDMON0036149 8 A. No . 9 Q. How many other ingredients were there in the 10 nerve agent other than the BX? 11 A. Probably two more. May have been three. 12 Again, I'm not sure. That's been a long time 13 ago. 14 Q. I understand. How did you seal the special 15 nickel drums for transport? 16 A. Put the bungs back in them. And I don't 17 remember whether we safety wired them or not. 18 Q. What kind of precautions did you take working 19 with that agent? 20 A. Filling the drum? 21 Q. Well, through the whole process. 22 A. Well, you carried a gas mask at all times and 23 -- that's one of the things you carried. I 46 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 think we just used regular leather gloves. O \T /--\ -it --i n n ri *1-- ^ -i vi ! *1-- "'r /-% *1-- -i *1-- v\ -t t i n JUDL. 'U.-L'U.li l_ OjC L -L L. Uil y UU . 3 Q. I guess the gas mask was required by the book 4 you were talking about? 5 A. Well, yes, whether it was required by the 6 book, it was required by the supervision. 7 Q. Anybody that was working in that project? 8 A. Yes, because raw material wasn't nice 9 material to be around. 10 Q. So the raw material itself was bad, and then 11 when it all got mixed together, you had to be 12 extremely careful with it? 13 A. Well, we were. We were with the raw 14 material. 15 Q. Was there water used in that process? 16 A. No. Restate that, how you use the water. ADAD21-007682 HARTOLDMON0036150 17 Q. Well, I'm just wondering, for example, was 18 there a cooling tower, or was there a 19 scrubber or anything like that that 20 generated, processed water? 21 A. We used a refrigeration unit to cool the 22 condenser. 23 Q. And there was water that was used in that 47 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 process? 2 A. There was probably water on the refrigeration 3 pressure to cool the compressor. 4 Q. Where was the Chemical Core plant in relation 5 to the aroclor plant? 6 A. Other side of the plant, west. 7 Q. The Chemical Core plant was west of the 8 aroclor plant? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And was the -- was the Chemical Core plant in -1 "I _L -L -> Vs i i -J 1 ^ -i v-. ,-r O cl jjui xumy ; 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What kind of building was it in? 14 A. It had been a production facility. 15 Q. For what? 16 A. For different chemicals, soap products, food 17 products, tripolyphosphates. 18 Q. Okay. Were there vents in that building? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you remember how many vents? 21 A. Well, the building was shaped like this 22 (indicating) and then came up, and you had 23 vent area under that part of the roof. 48 ADAD21-007683 HARTOLDMON0036151 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 Q. So it was open sided? 2 A. The top part had openings in it for cooling. 3 Back in those days, you didn't have air 4 conditioning; you had fans. 5 Q. So it was all open to the atmosphere? 6 A. The top was open. But on that side, I don't 7 think it was because that part of the roof -- 8 Q. On which side? 9 A. On the side that the Chemical Core project 10 was in. It was just in one small side or 11 section of the room of the building. And 12 that same building was used for -- 13 Q. So there was other things going on in that 14 building? 15 A. Not at that time. Weil, part of what they 16 called special products, those products that 17 had come out of research that had got larger, 18 and they put them out and called them special 19 products because they were larger production on ^ VJ unit s. 21 They was on one end, but the 22 building had been what they called a 23 tripolyphosphate building. They moved all 49 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 that out, Monsanto did, after they purchased 2 it. 3 So the building was largely used 4 for warehousing or if somebody come up with a 5 special product and needed room. 6 Q. Okay. So it was open so that the air could 7 flow through the building though? ADAD21-007684 HARTOLDMON0036152 8 A. It could flow through the top. 9 Q. All right. 10 A. You had air down at the bottom. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. Doors -- or windows on one side. 13 Q. And the doors and windows -- well, maybe the 14 doors not, but the windows were open just 15 like any other windows back in those days? 16 A. Yeah, closed them to keep warm or opened them 17 to get cool. 18 Q. All right. You went to the aroclor 19 department as a foreman? 20 A. Yes . 21 Q. How long were you at -- in the aroclor 22 department? 23 A. From '65 to '72, and intermittently, I was 50 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 transferred out to different jobs during that 2 time. -J niiciicvci cau.j. -L11y _ila.t t ITUS yOU W63T6 WOiTrCiriCf 111 4 aroclor, were you a foreman? 5 A. Yes . 6 Q. Did you work a particular shift, or did it 7 rotate? 8 A. No, I worked day shift. 9 Q. Day shift? 10 A. On call all the time. You had all of them. 11 Q. So you had supervisory responsibility over 12 all of the shifts? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And did you supervise the operators? 15 A. Yes. Well, the chief operator was the man 16 top of the shift. So I was over the chief, 17 and, of course, they was over the others, but ADAD21-007685 HARTOLDMON0036153 18 the chief did the -- 19 Q. Okay. So the chief was over the individual 20 operators? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you were over the chief? 23 A. Yes. 51 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 Q. And you were actually over all of the chiefs? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. For each shift? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Would you get called in if there was a 6 problem? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. How far away from the plant did you live? 9 A. Fourteen miles. 10 Q. About how often would you have -- would you 11 get called in after your normal working 12 hours? 13 A. I'd get calls periodically, problems that 14 they had. 15 Q. And I assume you titied to deal v/ith it oveir 16 the phone? 17 A. Yes, maintenance problems. If they had 18 breakdowns, that came to me, and I had to 19 contact maintenance to get -- where I wanted 20 it to stay down the rest of the night or get 21 maintenance out there to get the unit back on 22 line. 23 Q. Did you sometimes have to come in yourself? 52 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS ADAD21-007686 HARTOLDMON0036154 1 A. Sometimes I came out if the problem was large 2 enough. 3 Q. About how often, if you can estimate, would 4 you have to do that? 5 A. I don't have no idea. 6 Q. I mean, once a month? Once a week? On the 7 average? 8 A. I don't know. 9 MR. WRIGHT: Okay. He's got to 10 change the tape. Why don't we take a quick 11 break? 12 (Short recess.) 13 Q. (By Mr. Wright) What were some of the 14 sources of leaks of aroclor that you would 15 call during your period at the aroclor plant? 16 A. Pumps. 17 Q. Was that the biggest source of the leaks? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What others besides the pumps do you recall? 20 A. That's about all. I don't remember a valve 21 leaking. OO 23 result from? 53 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 A. Probably pumps, but they had drip pans under 2 the pumps. 3 Q. Well, you wouldn't get fifteen hundred 4 gallons from a pump, would you? 5 A. No. I don't know where you would get a 6 fifteen-hundred-gallon spill. 7 Q. You don't remember a spill in about 1970 8 where they lost fifteen hundred gallons? 9 A. I don't believe it was no fifteen hundred ADAD21-007687 HARTOLDMON0036155 10 gallons. 11 Q. Well, let me show you a memo. For the 12 record, this is MONS096886, and we can mark 13 it as Mr. Lackey Exhibit Number 1. Well, no. 14 (Discussion off the record.) 15 Q. All right. Let me hand you what we're 16 calling Exhibit A. And she's going to change 17 it to - 18 A. -- whatever. 19 20 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 31 was 21 marked for identification and 22 copy of same is attached 23 hereto.) 54 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 Q. Yeah, a different number because we kind of 2 got confused on that. But for the record, 3 it's MONS096886, and it's a memo from Bunkey 4 -- from E. G. Wright to W. B. Papageorge. 5 And your referenced up there in the 6 right-hand corner as a recipient. Do you see 7 t fos t ? 8 A. That wasn't a leak; that was a spill. 9 Q. Okay. Yeah. Let me ask you a fresh 10 question. 11 Have you had a chance to review 12 this November 14th, 1969 memo? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Having reviewed it, does that refresh your 15 recollection about that spill? 16 A. Yeah, yes. 17 Q. Do you recall what that spill came from? 18 A. The receiver, still receiver. ADAD21-007688 HARTOLDMON0036156 19 Q. Do you remember other spills from the still 20 receiver? 21 A. No. 22 Q. You're not saying there weren't any; you're 23 just saying you don't remember them - 55 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 A. No. 2 Q. -- at this late date? 3 A. I don't remember them. But that one, we 4 caught most of it down at the -- in the 5 sewer. 6 Q. Well, let me show you what I'm going to mark 7 as Exhibit Number 32, which is a follow-up 8 memo six days later. 9 This is MONS096885, and it's a 10 memo, again, from E. G. Wright to W. B. 11 Papageorge discussing the aroclor spill that 12 we were just referring to. 13 14 15 marked for identification and 16 copy of same is attached 17 hereto.) 18 Q. And by the way, this exhibit that you looked 19 at, the November 14th memo, refers to a spill 20 on March 6, 1969. I think he meant to say 21 November 6th, 1969. 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. That one refers to the correct date, November 56 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 6th, 1969. ADAD21-007689 HARTOLDMON0036157 2 You see there where he said that 3 y'all recovered about six hundred gallons, 4 leaving nine hundred gallons still in the 5 sewer and the limestone pit? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. In this memo that we looked at earlier, the 8 November 14th, 1969 memo, he recommended 9 "that that plant begin to look into 10 installing a catch basin or some other device 11 located between the aroclor department and 12 the acid neutralization pit, which would 13 prevent a recurrence of this type incident." 14 Was that done? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. When was that done? 17 A. One was just following that memo. I don't 18 remember just when, but I know it was done, 19 and we used it. 20 Q. What specifically was done? 21 A. Well, they checked it for buildup of aroclor 22 in it, turned all your effluent through ^ -J dllOJ. L. lid L. Wd O d L. 57 POQHPP <T. TTTPMPP PnTTPT PPDOPTPPQ 1 department. 2 Of course, that fifteen hundred 3 gallons is just an estimate. There's no way 4 to know how much was in that receiver at the 5 time. 6 Of course, we lost vacuum there is 7 the reason we couldn't do nothing with it. 8 Q. And - 9 A. Power was off. 10 Q. Is that the biggest spill you remember? ADAD21-007690 HARTOLDMON0036158 11 A. Yes, sir. And that product, you didn't have 12 spills much because you wasted your money. 13 Q. One quick question while I'm thinking about 14 it. How long did your deposition in Delaware 15 last? 16 A. All day. 17 Q. Just one day though? 18 A. No, two. 19 Q. Two full days? 20 A. They came here one day. 21 Q. So they took your deposition twice? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. Okay. How long was there between -- well, 58 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 aia you go to Delaware rirst? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And took a full day up there? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. How long after that until they came back and 6 7 A. I guess it was probably May. They didn't 8 finish up there, but I had a plane to catch. 9 Q. Right. 10 A. Just like I've got a date to leave you. 11 Q , T understand And thev took von a whole 12 other day down here? 13 A. They spent a day. 14 Q. And when was it that you went to Delaware? 15 A. I don't remember what year. It was in March. 16 On March the 10th. 17 And I went up there and came back, 18 and we had a large snow the next day. But it 19 was spitting snow the day I was up there, and 20 that's the reason I was anxious to get out. ADAD21-007691 HARTOLDMON0036159 21 I wasn't spending the night up there and 22 getting snowed in. 23 Q. I understand. 59 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 A. And we had about a ten-inch snow here. 2 Q. Okay. And then they came in May and finished 3 up? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did they show you documents in that 6 deposition? 7 A. I don't remember. 8 Q. Did you talk with them about the chemical 9 warfare project? Did they ask you anything 10 about it? 11 A. They just mentioned it. I don't remember how 12 much details they asked or anything. 13 Q. Did they ask more or less than I'm asking 14 today or than I asked you today? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. You don't remember. Okay. The - - 17 A. Probably not near as much. 18 Q. All right. Ths -- let ms ssk you shout 19 another document that you were copied on. 20 Do you remember Bunkey Wright 21 working on ways to lower the amount of 22 aroclor that was leaving the plant in the 23 effluent? 60 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 A. He was working on that, but I don't know what 2 capacity. He was working with William 3 Taffee, I believe, or was working under ADAD21-007692 HARTOLDMON0036160 4 William Taffee. 5 Q. Did you ever go to the landfill? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did you ever have any job duties at the 8 landfill? 9 A. No. 10 Q. When or why did you go to the landfill? 11 A. Well, my people hauled the waste from the 12 plant up there, so I'd check that 13 periodically, just check and see what they 14 were doing. 15 Q. When was that? 16 A. Well, from '72 until probably '84 or '85. I 17 retired in '85. 18 But somewhere about that time they 19 started to get an outside contractor, I 20 believe, to start picking up some of the 21 material in the plant, and the other -- they 22 were sending the hazard material to a mill. 23 Q. So until about - 61 1 A. -- sometime in the '80s. 2 Q. Is when they stopped taking everything to the 3 dump? 4 A. I'm not sure where they'd stopped when I 5 retired completely or not, but I know that 6 each department was making out a work sheet 7 on their containers long before I retired. 8 And if they didn't have that sheet signed, my 9 men didn't pick it up. 10 Q. What was your job from '72 to '85? 11 A. Material handling foreman. 12 Q. What did that job entail? 13 A. Shipping, moving materials, the waste, out of ADAD21-007693 HARTOLDMON0036161 14 the plant,- picking- up the mail,- receiving the 15 empty containers, warehousing, finished 16 products, and packaging, part of the 17 packaging. I did part of the packaging. 18 And, of course, labeling and 19 stenciling of the drums to be shipped. 20 Q. How did you find out the aroclor department 21 was going to shut down? 22 A. Superintendent walked in and just said as of 23 such and such date, we won't sell anymore. 62 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 And customers got to get all they want 2 between this date, and we'll run to here, and 3 then we close it down. 4 And they ordered raw materials that 5 fit that production run, and when that ran 6 out, you pulled the switch. 7 Q. How long was it from when the superintendent 8 walked in to when y'all were finished with 9 the - 10 A. I believe it was November or December. 11 Somewhere in thst irsngs. 12 Q. Now, was that for the solid? 13 A. That was for the solid. They'd already 14 closed the liquid down. 15 Q. Let me ask you, then, about that. How did 16 you find out about them shutting down the 17 liquid part? 18 A. I guess that came gradual. They started 19 transferring the business to the St. Louis 20 plant, and, of course, when we transferred 21 the tank cars out that we shipped materials 22 to GE and they didn't return -- when they ADAD21-007694 HARTOLDMON0036162 23 left the plant, they were scheduled to go to 63 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 the St. Louis plant -- then you knew you was 2 out pretty soon. 3 Q. Was there a -- I mean, did anybody ever tell 4 you we're shutting down the liquid aroclors, 5 or did you just find out because the tank 6 cars didn't come back? 7 A. Well, I don't really know whether they told 8 me or we just sat and figured it out among 9 ourselves, or the fact was known that GE took 10 their product from Anniston. They wouldn't 11 accept it from -- 12 Q. -- Krumrich? 13 A. -- Krumrich. So they transferred a 14 supervisor from Anniston to Krumrich. 15 Q. Who was that? 16 A. Jack Malloy. And, of course, they 17 transferred one prior to him, Jim Savage. 1O -L (J TdTV-i n /"I lo *1-- To t r Llicy ILLCIJV J.11V- 19 quality material there as we're making here, 20 but GE hadn't accepted that fact. 21 Q. GE didn't trust their material; they trusted 22 your material? 23 A. Yes. And then they went on strike here, and. FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 of course, the first time they went on strike 2 -- or one time it was coming up - - and my 3 supervisor, which was Jack Malloy, he said if 4 they ever force GE to take the material from 5 Krumrich, Anniston's back will be broken. 6 And, of course, when they went on ADAD21-007695 HARTOLDMON0036163 7 strike, I had to ready the tank cars to go to 8 Krumrich to fill a car for GE, and as soon as 9 they accepted that, checked it out and 10 everything, then the car would leave Anniston 11 and return to Krumrich. 12 Q. Do you remember when that was? 13 A. Well, it was after '68 period. Between '68 14 and '72, I guess. 15 Q. I see - 16 A. Probably - 17 Q. I've seen documents that indicate it was '71. 18 A. Of course, that's when they told us the solid 19 was going down. We probably made some of the 20 liquid up in '71, the heavy ones, I believe. 21 I believe they got the light one, 22 1242, which went to GE and Westinghouse. 23 Q. So y'all kept making the 1254 and 1260? 65 nonTrnn <- mTTn^Tnn ciATTnm nnnAnmnnn rU&nfiCi 6c IUKINICjK ^UUKl KJiJr'VJKl 1 A. Well, the 1254 -- yeah, probably. 1260 and 2 the 1262. But there wasn't much of that to 3 be made, and it was a lot harder to make. 4 V-/J 5 A. And it was heavier. It didn't go anywhere. 6 If you had a spill there, it stayed where you 7 spilled it. 8 Q. This fifteen hundred gallons, would you think 9 that was -- oh, it says it was 1242. That's 10 right. 11 A. It was 1242. I know what that was. 12 Q. Okay. I'm not sure -- I think you probably 13 answered this, but I'm not sure I got it. 14 Let me just ask it again. 15 Did they ever tell you or did ADAD21-007696 HARTOLDMON0036164 16 anybody from Monsanto tell you they were 17 shutting down the liquid aroclor part of the 18 plant, or did you just figure it out not 19 getting anymore orders for it? 20 A. Well, orders started dwindling and started 21 shipping to Krumrich. That's the handwriting 22 on the wall. Been around there long enough 23 to know when products started being produced 66 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 somewhere else, that's not long. 2 Q. Did anybody from Monsanto tell you why they 3 were shipping it from Krumrich and not 4 shipping it from Anniston anymore? 5 A. No. Just the fact I saw one project where a 6 fellow says Anniston and Krumrich plant is 7 approximately equal, therefore, I recommend 8 the project to go to Krumrich, and that tells 9 you right there. And too, our cost got 10 higher. That's one thing. -1 "I _L -L 1-pV-l /-\ T T /I lo I T !-- !-- V"* /-% r~1 V"* "1 V' -I ~\ "'l V*\ !-- ,--\ T. TV\ incy diiul uiic c-iiiui me paiiL uuwn , 12 and we had to get the chlorine from a Texas 13 plant that they had agreed contract out 14 there. So Krumrich got it for nearly eight 15 hundred dollars freight on tank car. 16 Same tank car coming to Anniston 17 was somewhere around twenty-six hundred 18 dollars. So you got to have a lot of profit 19 otherwise to overcome that raw material. 20 That's on a ninety-ton chlorine car. 21 And then they got switching 22 shipping them to St. Louis and then back 23 shipping them, and got it down to eighteen 67 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS ADAD21-007697 HARTOLDMON0036165 1 hundred dollars or somewhere in that 2 neighborhood, in my understanding freight. 3 But still, that didn't give us no 4 operating advantage at all. The cost 5 reduction was up there. They were getting 6 their freight on tank car, raw material, 7 probably three times, a third, two thirds, 8 less than we were. 9 And you can't overcome that, the 10 people with the same knowledge, technology, 11 and same equipment. 12 Q. Okay. Let me object nonresponsive for the 13 record. 14 The -- I'm trying to figure out - 15 did you say you -- you said you saw a 16 project. You mean a written document of some 17 kind? 18 A. It was a -- some addition that they was going 19 to put in in the aroclor and probably up 20 production or made better production. 21 Q. So there was a proposal to expand the liquid 22 part of the plant? 23 A. Probably not expand it/ but to -- 68 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 Q. -- increase production? 2 A. Increase the quality. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. See, you was up against it for quality. GE 5 was putting the pressure on you to keep the 6 -- GE wouldn't have it unless it was top 7 quality. 8 Q. Okay. What I'm trying to figure out is -- ADAD21-007698 HARTOLDMON0036166 9 A. I don't remember what it was, but I'm just 10 stating that this project -- it may not been 11 pertaining to aroclor, but that's what he was 12 saying is the project -- the cost is equal, 13 approximately equal, therefore, I recommend 14 this go to Krumrich. 15 Q. But this is something you saw in writing is 16 what I'm trying to ask? 17 A. Seemed like it was. 18 Q. Okay. And did it come from somebody in 19 Anniston, or did it come from somebody at the 20 headquarters? 21 A. I think it was this fellow's recommendation. 22 Q. Do you remember - 23 A. It may have been a letter that he was sending 69 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 someone that that was his recommendation. 2 Well, it was the recommendation, but he may 3 not have been the man with the authority -- A C\ T) n tIo-I-- . rk-Lyi-LL.. 5 A. --to make the decision. 6 Q. Do you remember who it was that wrote the 7 document that you're remembering? 8 A. Jim Savage. 9 Q. Do you remember when that was? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Was that while Jim Savage was still in 12 Anniston? 13 A. St. Louis. 14 Q. After he moved to St. Louis? 15 A. But he was over aroclor, I believe. 16 Q. But you would have seen the document in 17 Anniston? 18 A. Not necessarily. ADAD21-007699 HARTOLDMON0036167 19 Q. Did. you go to St. Louis soms? 20 A. No. I don't remember just where I saw that. 21 Q. Well, I mean, wouldn't it have had to be in 22 Anniston if you -- where else could you have 23 seen it? 70 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 A. Well, it may not have been a regular 2 document. It would have probably been a 3 write-up. 4 Q. What do you mean by - 5 A. Well, a document that went to everybody or -6 Q. You're saying it may not have been an 7 official - 8 A. Yeah, capacity. 9 Q. Okay. It may have been just his rough draft 10 or something? 11 A. Well, they indicated to me that we were 12 losing. 13 Q. Were you and Mr. Savage friends? 14 A. Well, probably one time. He was my boss. 15 Q. But, I mean, the impression I get is that he 16 may hsve shsired something with you thst he 17 said look, this is what I'm going to be 18 sending out, and I wanted you to know about 19 it. 20 A. Well, let's drop that part. You're getting 21 too far out. 22 Q. Well - 23 A. I know what you're doing, and I know what - 71 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 I can't say it's a document, and I can't say ADAD21-007700 HARTOLDMON0036168 2 it's facts really. 3 I'm just stating why -- how I come 4 up with the idea that some of the stuff going 5 to Krumrich that we wasn't going to be able 6 to maintain at Anniston. 7 Q. Well, here's -- all I'm trying to do -- I'm 8 not -- this isn't a trick or anything. All 9 I'm trying to do is I'm trying to - 10 A. -- find the document that states -11 Q. I'm trying to see if there is a document that 12 talks -- that goes through this analysis that 13 talks about: Should we keep it in Anniston? 14 Should we move it to Krumrich? Why should we 15 keep it in Anniston? Why should we move it 16 to Krumrich? 17 The impression I get is that you 18 saw something like that, but you don't 19 remember specifically what it was. 20 A. Well, we put in some equipment to upgrade the 21 resistivity. That's probably where that came 22 in. ^ -J tilCl C dll O -L Uli 111 72 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 1969. I know that. 2 A. That went to the tank farm and the solid 3 aroclor. 4 Q. You're not talking about that. You're 5 talking about something else? 6 A. Yeah. This was something that you filtered 7 your aroclor through, and the resistivity is 8 resistance of electric current is my 9 understanding. 10 And that's what they put that 11 through these columns. And that may have ADAD21 -007701 HARTOLDMON0036169 12 been where that came in. I just don't really 13 remember. 14 But they put that in, and we 15 filtered aroclor through there, and it came 16 out purer than it was before. 17 0. Was that a test process that y'all did in 18 Anniston? 19 A. It was started out as a test, and then we 20 started doing it. 21 Q. So what you're thinking is -- the best 22 recollection you have is that there was a 23 question about whether to increase that 73 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 ability, using that equipment, and Mr. Savage 2 was - 3 A. Well, probably more so upgrade their's up 4 there. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. That's all that was for. It didn't increase 7 your production any whatsoever. It just may 8 have increased your cost a little bit because 9 ^;mi tat^ c rrr^-inrr f- "h mi i rrln mr\-ro orminmont10 Q. And increased the quality? 11 A. It increased the quality tremendous as far as 12 electrical companies were concerned. 13 But that was right on the tail end 14 of the liquid aroclor. 15 Q. I think I asked you this, but I can't 16 remember. Is Mr. Savage still alive? 17 A. I'm sure he is. He's not as old as I am. 18 Q. You think you'd have heard if he'd have 19 passed on? 20 A. No, probably wouldn't have. ADAD21-007702 HARTOLDMON0036170 21 Q. Last you knew of him, he was in the St. Louis 22 area? 23 A. He was in the general office. 74 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 Q. If you wanted to get hold of him, can you 2 think of anything you would do? 3 A. Unless you could get corporate headquarters 4 to find him, I don't -- he's been gone a good 5 many years. 6 Well, he went to work '61 or prior 7 to that, but he became my boss in '61. And 8 then he left the Anniston plant probably in 9 '63, probably '63. Somewhere in that time 10 span. May have been '64. 11 He had to leave in '63 because Jack 12 Malloy became supervisor of chlorine in '63. 13 Q. Did you ever hear anything about a lawsuit by 14 Bass, B-a-s-s against Monsanto in the late 15 1C -L ' 60s? 7V . TTV-1 -> -I- T.T-> /-I A -I- -l-^O vyucil. wao j. l. pci L-cu-ii-Liiy ; 17 Q. Pollution of Choccolocco Creek, I guess. 18 MR. KELLY: Object to the form. 19 THE WITNESS: No, I don't recall 20 that name. 21 Q. (By Mr. Wright) Let me ask it more generally 22 then. Do you remember hearing about -- from 23 Monsanto people there at work -- about any 75 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 lawsuit against Monsanto for pollution of 2 creeks downstream of the Anniston plant? 3 MR. KELLY: Object to the form. No 4 foundation. ADAD21-007703 HARTOLDMON0036171 5 THE WITNESS: I don't know if there 6 was a lawsuit. There was a complaint, but I 7 don't know where it ever -- best of my 8 knowledge where it was a -- 9 Q. (By Mr. Wright) Where the did complaint come 10 up to the best of your recollection? 11 A. I don't remember that year. 12 Q. In relation to the shutdown of the plant, how 13 close in time was it? 14 MR. KELLY: Are you referring to 15 the shutdown of aroclor? 16 MR. WRIGHT: Yes, that's what I 17 mean, shutdown of aroclor. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 19 Q. (By Mr. Wright) What did you hear about that 20 complaint? 21 A. Some of them complained of fish killed, I 22 think, which wouldn't have been aroclor. 2 3 Q. 'Who complained? 76 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 A. State or some individuals. I don't know who. 2 Q. How did you he sir s. botit it? 3 A. Probably was in the paper. 4 Q. Have you ever had your blood tested for PCBs? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did you have an office in the aroclor plant? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And that was where you were located 9 primarily? 10 A. Yes. They had one down in the department and 11 then moved across the road and built six 12 offices. That's when they did the expanding 13 down there. ADAD21-007704 HARTOLDMON0036172 14 They moved the office section out 15 and put equipment there and built the office 16 across the street. 17 0. What changes do you remember being made to 18 try to minimize the amount of PCBs getting 19 into -- or getting off of the plant property? 20 A. Well, they put -- stressed cleanup more and 21 then this sump and different pumps. 22 We started upgrading the pumps, 23 trying to get pumps with mechanical seals in 77 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 them that didn't leak, which was a lot harder 2 to get a mechanical pump to pump aroclor than 3 any other liquid because once it got cold, it 4 solidified, where you had to have heat on 5 that pump. 6 They were upgrading the pumps, 7 experimenting with different pumps to see how 8 well they handled it. But they were changing O ^11 vMimv^n _2 CL -L -L LilC JJUUL|JO 'U U l_ . 10 Q. By the time the plant shut down, had all of 11 the pumps been changed out? 12 A. I don't remember whether they had or not. 13 Q. Had more than half of them been changed out? 14 A. Yes, I would say more than half. 15 Q. But you can't get any closer than that? 16 A. I wouldn't try to because somebody may come 17 along and tell you different. 18 Q. I'm just - - 19 A. I know. 20 Q. -- looking for your best recollection. 21 A. That's been thirty years almost. 22 Q. Somebody else may have a different 23 recollection, but your recollection's your ADAD21-007705 HARTOLDMON0036173 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 78 1 recollection. You're entitled to it. 2 A. And it's done got old. Old people don't 3 remember. 4 Q. You remember pretty good. 5 A. I ain't got old yet. 6 Q. Do you remember air sampling for -- to 7 determine the amount of aroclor in the air? 8 A. I'm not sure. If it was air sampling going 9 on, that mostly came through the lab, and 10 what they did most of the time didn't bother 11 me too much until they got me in hot water. 12 Q. Okay. So you don't specifically remember air 13 sampling? 14 A. No. 15 Q. For aroclors, I mean. 16 A. I don't think so. But they were doing all 17 kind of things to curtail the -- any loss of 18 aroclor pollutants. 19 Q. I need to object nonresponsive, but let me 20 ask you aside from the things you mentioned, 21 can you think of any othsir things? 22 You mentioned phasing out the old 23 pumps; you mentioned the sump we talked 79 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 about, and you mentioned stressing cleanup. 2 Can you think of anything else that was done 3 to try to minimize PCB losses? 4 A. Not right now. That was a constant push, 5 housekeeping, cleanup. 6 Q. When you had responsibilities regarding the ADAD21-007706 HARTOLDMON0036174 7 landfill, did -- was there just one -- was 8 there one hole at the beginning, is the 9 easiest way to ask it, I guess? 10 A. No, there was several places. You had Niran 11 you put in, and you had aroclor, and then 12 other waste. 13 Q. Do you remember that as of '72? 14 A. Yes. They had different places you dumped 15 different material. If my men dumped them in 16 the wrong area - 17 Q. You heard about it? 18 A. -- I heard about it. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. It didn't take long. 21 Q. Now, were you still dumping any aroclor as of 22 ' 72? 23 A. I'm sure there was dumping up there. I 80 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 didn't go to shipping until after '72, which O aiuuiui nau oiubcu uuwii. 3 Q. Right. I guess what I'm asking - 4 A. But I didn't have the transportation part of 5 it until I moved to shipping. 6 Q. Right. That's what I'm asking is after you 7 moved over there - 8 A. No, we got -- if we hauled any, I don't 9 recall it, but we still had some solids in 10 the plant that we moved out. 11 I went over there, I think, in May, 12 and we had to have it all out by the 30th of 13 June. So production and cleanup when I went 14 to aroclor was completed. 15 I think it liked just a little, and 16 when they moved me out to shipping, I was ADAD21 -007707 HARTOLDMON0036175 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 82 doing- clssinup. And so thsy moved another foreman in to finish that up and moved me on to shipping. Q. When did they tear the aroclor plant down? A. I don't recall. Didn't tear it all down at one time, I don't think. Q. Was that --or was that placed in the 81 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS landfill? A. No, I think that was hauled to a mill, best of my knowledge. It was not put in our landfill. Q. Was none of it put in your landfill, none of the old aroclor plant? A. After we closed it down, I don't think so, not to my knowledge. Q. I didn't think they started hauling to a mill until the '80s. Do you think it sat around there for ten years? A. Well, I don't know. The old building there was a good long while. Now, whether it wes gutted, I don,t remember. The material that was gutted out after they closed it down may have gone to the landfill. I do not know. But I think the steel structure, best of my knowledge, it went to a landfill out of the plant. Now, where it went to a mill or to another one, that, I couldn't say. Q. Okay. So what you're saying, the interior stuff and the equipment may have gone to the FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS ADAD21-007708 HARTOLDMON0036176 1 Monsanto landfill? 2 A. May have and may not have. 3 Q. But your best recollection is the actual 4 steel building structure itself went to a 5 mill? 6 A. Yeah, it did not go to the landfill up there. 7 Q. Okay. Were y'all involved with hauling any 8 of the waste from the tear down of the 9 building? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you hear about the -- when they bought 12 all the hogs in that area down there next to 13 the plant? 14 A. I heard they bought some. 15 Q. Do you remember who you heard that from? 16 A. No. 17 Q. What did you hear about it? 18 A. That they just bought some hogs. That's all 19 I know. I thought they was going to give us 20 a barbecue. O "I _L / uu ncai QJJUUL 4J_- 1-1 1V1\ ^U1-1 Vli\y"'T liic ucau nuy 22 on the landfill? 23 A. No. I don't know of finding a dead hog on a 83 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 landfill. 2 Q. Okay. What were you told about why they were 3 buying all those hogs? 4 A. They were just checking them, I think 5 somebody said. I don't know. 6 Q. Checking them for PCBs? 7 A. Seeing if there was any got out there. I'm 8 not sure. ADAD21-007709 HARTOLDMON0036177 9 Q. Who was it that told you about it, or did I 10 ask you that already? 11 A. You already asked me that. I don't know. 12 Q. Okay. Did you ever go out in that 13 neighborhood over there and talk to the 14 people that lived over there? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. Do you know of anybody that did? 17 A. No. 18 Q. I've got some other areas I'd like to talk to 19 you about. I'm kind of hesitant to start a 20 new area with you having to leave. We - 21 MR. WRIGHT: Well, let's go off the 22 record for a second. 23 (Discussion off the record.) 84 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 (Deposition concluded at 10:57 a.m.) 2 FURTHER THE DEPONENT SAITH NOT. 3 4 5 g 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 ADAD21 -007710 HARTOLDMON0036178 18 19 20 21 22 85 FOSHEE & TURNER COURT REPORTERS 1 CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF ALABAMA ) 4 CALHOUN COUNTY ) 5 6 I HEREBY CERTIFY that the above and 7 foregoing transcript was taken down by me in 8 stenotype, and the questions and answers thereto 9 were transcribed by means of computer-aided 10 transcription, and that the foregoing represents 11 a true and correct transcript of the testimony 12 given by said witness. 1O -L 14 of counsel, nor of any relation to the parties to 15 the action, nor am I anywise interested in the 16 result of said cause. 17 18 19 20 21 TAMMY R. JENNINGS GREGORY Notary Public, State of Alabama 22 MY COMMISSION EXPIRES: 9-12-2001 23 ADAD21-007711 HARTOLDMON0036179