Document xjyBBM2OQx3k0ba89o56bw226

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF NEVADA NEVADA POWER COMPANY, Nevada corporation, Plaintiff, a VS . MONSANTO COMPANY, a foreign corporation; GENERAL ELECTRIC COMPANY, a foreign corporation; WESTINGHOUSE ELECTRIC CORPORATION; a foreign corporation; and DOES I XXV, inclusive, Defendants. CV-S-89-555-LDG-LRL READING COPY DEPOSITION OF ROBERT EMMET KELLY, VOLUME I TAKEN ON FEBRUARY 15, 1994 M.D. MARTIN & ASSOCIATES CERTIFIED COURT REPORTERS 2200 MARKET STREET, SUITE 412 GALVESTON/TEXAS 77550 (409) 762-2222 * FAX (409) 762-8040 WATER PCB-SD0000030211 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 INDEX 2 THE WITNESS: ROBERT EMMET KELLY, M.D. VOLUME I EXAMINATION: By Mr. Bauer .................................................................................. PAGE 11 KELLY EXHIBITS: Exhibit No . 1 ............................................................................... "An Acneform Dermatergosis," by Jack W. Jones, M.D., and Herbert S. Alden, M.D. 9 Exhibit No. 2 ............................................................................... Program Symposium on Certain Chlorinated Hydrocarbons, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, Massachusetts, June 30, 1937, and Attached Article from September, 1937, The Journal of Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology, "The Problem of Possible Systemic Effects from Certain Chlorinated Hydrocarbons," Drinker, et al 9 Exhibit No. 3 ............................................................................... Article from The Journal of Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology, February, 1938,"Morphological Changes in the Livers of Rats Resulting from Exposure to Certain Chlorinated Hydrocarbons," Bennett, et a1 9 Exhibit No. 4 ............................................................................... Report to the Monsanto Chemical Company by Cecil K. Drinker, M.D., September 15, 1938 9 Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030212 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 INDEX (Continued) KELLY EXHIBITS: PAGE Exhibit No . 5 ............................................................................... Report to the Monsanto Chemical Company by Cecil K. Drinker, M.D., September 15, 1938 9 Exhibit No . 6 ............................................................................... Article from The Journal of Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology, May, 1939 ,"Further Observations on the Possible Systemic Toxicity of Certain of the Chlorinated Hydrocarbons with Suggestions for Permissible Concentrations in the Air of Workrooms," Cecil K. Drinker 9 Exhibit No . 7 ............................................................................... Article from the Journal of the American Medical Association, April 24, 1954, "Chloracne from an Unusual Exposure to Arochlor," Meigs, et al 9 Exhibit No . 8 ............................................................................... Monsanto Chemical Company Letter Dated April 28, 1954, to Dr. J. Wister Meigs from R. Emmet Kelly, M.D. 9 Exhibit No . 9 ............................................................................... Yale University School of Medicine Letter Dated May 7, 1954, to R. Emmet Kelly, M.D., from J. Wister Meigs, M.D. 9 Exhibit No. 10 ............................................................................ 9 Scientific Associates Certificate of Analysis Dated November 10, 1953, Re: "The Acute Oral Toxicity (LD ) of Aroclor 1254 for Rats," for the Monsanto Chemical Company Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030213 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 INDEX (Continued) KELLY EXHIBITS; PAGE Exhibit No . 11 ........................................................................... Scientific Associates Certificate of Analysis Dated December 11, 1953, Re: "The Acute Oral Toxicity of Aroclor 1242 for Rats," for the Monsanto Chemical Company 9 Exhibit No . 12 ........................................................................... The Kettering Laboratory, University of Cincinnati, Report Dated June 22, 1955, "The Toxicity of the Vapor of Aroclor 1242 and Aroclor 1254," Treon, et al 9 Exhibit No . 13 ........................................................................... The Kettering Laboratory, University of Cincinnati, Report Dated June 28, 1955, "The Toxicity of the Vapor of Aroclor 1242 and Aroclor 1254," Treon, et al 9 Exhibit No. 14 .......................................................................... Article from Industrial Hygiene Quarterly, June, 1956, "The Toxicity of the Vapors of Aroclor 1242 and Aroclor 1254," Treon, et al 9 Exhibit No . 15 ........................................................................... Younger Laboratories Certificate of Analysis Dated March 4, 1963, RE: "Toxicological Investigation of Inerteen PPO," for Monsanto Chemical Company 9 Exhibit No. 16 ........................................................................... Younger Laboratories Certificate of Analysis Dated March 4, 1963, RE: "Toxicological Investigation of Pyranol 1470," for Monsanto Chemical Company 9 Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030214 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 INDEX (Continued) 5 KELLY EXHIBITS: PAGE Exhibit No. 17 ........................................................................... Industrial Bio-Test Laboratories, Inc., Report Dated March 29, 1963, RE: "Subacute Dermal Toxicity of Aroclor 1254," for Monsanto Chemical Company 9 Exhibit No . 18 ........................................................................... Typewritten Note Dated October 11, 1937, from L. A. Watt 9 Exhibit No . 19 ........................................................................... Single Page Entitled "Aroclor 1260" 9 Exhibit No. 20 ........................................................................... Single Page Entitled "Transformer Pyranol* A-13-B 3B (Replaces Pyranol 1467 and Pyranol 1470)" 9 Exhibit No. 21 ........................................................................... Single Page Entitled "Inerteen PPO" 9 Exhibit No . 22 ........................................................................... "The Proper Handling of Aroclors and their Mixtures in the Electrical Industry," Revised January, 1960, Monsanto Chemical Co., P. G. Benignus 9 Exhibit No. 2 3 ........................................................................... Monsanto ASKAREL Inspection and Maintenance Guide 9 Exhibit No . 2 4 ........................................................................... Letter Dated March 8, 1961, to Mr. J. G. Sullivan from R. Emmet Kelly, M.D. 9 Exhibit No . 2 5 ........................................................................... Monsanto Chemical Company Letter Dated July 2 5 , 19 5 6 , to H. W. Speicher from Elmer P. Wheeler 9 Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030215 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 INDEX (Continued) 6 KELLY EXHIBITS: PAGE Exhibit No. 26 ........................................................................... Letter Dated October 23, 1959, to H. Wilbur Speicher from Elmer P. Wheeler 9 Exhibit No. 2 7 ........................................................................... Letter Dated April 26, 1966, to Alvin W. Crow from R. Emmet Kelly 9 Exhibit No. 2 8 ........................................................................... Hygienic Guide Series, Chlorodiphenyls 9 Exhibit No. 29 ............................................................................ Monsanto, "Toxicity and Safe Handling of Askarel," Dated March 4, 1971, from R. Emmet Kelly 9 Exhibit No. 30 ............................................................................ Monsanto Europe S.A. Memorandum Dated February 22, 1967, to Dr. R. Emmet Kelly from D. Wood 9 Exhibit No. 31 ............................................................................ Monsanto Memorandum Dated September 11, 1968, to Dr. W. R. Richard from Elmer P. Wheeler 9 Exhibit No. 3 2 ............................................................................ Letter Dated December 20, 1968, to Dr. Joseph C. Calandra from Elmer P. Wheeler 9 Exhibit No. 3 3 ............................................................................ Letter Dated April 8, 1970, to Herbert Blumenthal, Ph.D., from R. Emmet Kelly, M.D. 9 Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030216 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 INDEX (Continued) 7 KELLY EXHIBITS; PAGE Exhibit No . 34 ........................................................................... Monsanto Report Dated September 4, 1970, "Three-Generation Reproduction Study in Albino Rats With Aroclor 1242, Aroclor 1254, Aroclor 1260; Results of the First Generation," Submitted by R. Emmet Kelly, M.D. 9 Exhibit No. 35 ........................................................................... Industrial Bio-Test Laboratories, Inc., Letter Dated November 12,, 1971, to Elmer P. Wheeler from J. C. Calandra, Submitting Report Entitled, "Two-Year Chronic Oral Toxicity Study with Aroclor 1260 in Albino Rats," IBT No. B7298 9 Exhibit No. 36 ........................................................................... Memorandum Dated October 21, 1968, to W. R. Richard from Elmer P. Wheeler, RE: "Polychlorinated Biphenyls in the Environment" 9 Exhibit No . 37 ........................................................................... Minutes of Meeting of the Corporate Development Committee Dated November 17, 1969, RE: "Report on Polychlorinated Biphenyls" 9 Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030217 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8 APPEARANCES: FOR THE PLAINTIFF: Mr. Michael T. Gallagher Mr. John H. Kim Fisher, Gallagher & Lewis, L.L.P. First Interstate Bank Plaza 1000 Louisiana, 70th Floor Houston, Texas 77002 FOR THE DEFENDANT MONSANTO COMPANY: Mr. Scott R. Bauer Mr. Bruce A. Featherstone Kirkland & Ellis 1999 Broadway Denver, Colorado 80202 FOR THE DEFENDANT GENERAL ELECTRIC COMPANY: Mr. Evan J. Roth Williams & Connolly 7 2 5 Twe1fth Street, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20005 FOR THE DEFENDANT WESTINGHOUSE ELECTRIC CORPORATION: Mr. Arvin Maskin Mr. Konrad L. Cailteaux Weil, Gotshal & Manges 767 Fifth Avenue New York, New York 10153 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Mr. Lou Getz Legal Media Systems, Inc. 550 Westcott, Suite 400 Houston, Texas 77007 ALSO PRESENT: Ms. Lynette Weldon Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030218 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 9 The oral videotaped deposition of ROBERT EMMET KELLY, M.D., was taken on February 15, 1994, beginning at 9:14 a.m., in the offices of Husch & Eppenberger, 100 N. Broadway, Suite 1300, St. Louis, Missouri, before Irma L. Reyes, a Certified Court Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Texas, pursuant to Notice and Agreement, the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, and the following stipulation and waiver of counsel: IT WAS STIPULATED AND/OR AGREED that the deposition is to be signed by the witness before any Notary Public or officer authorized to administer oaths. IT WAS FURTHER STIPULATED AND/OR AGREED that the court reporter could swear the witness with the same force and effect as if she were a Notary Public in and for the State of Missouri. (Instruments were marked Kelly Exhibit Nos. 1 through 37 for identification.) Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030219 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 MR. ROTH: Scott, are we going to do this thing about the objections? MR. BAUER: Sure. Do you want to agree that an objection from one party is good for everybody? MR. KIM: Yeah. MR. BAUER: We're going to stipulate that if one party objects, other parties can rely on that objection. MR. KIM: We'll stipulate to that. MR. BAUER: If one defendant objects -- if one defendant objects, the other defendants can rely on the objections. If plaintiff wants to object, I assume that plaintiff is going to make his objection. MR. GALLAGHER: Yes. MR. BAUER: Right. So that they don't have to both talk, in other words. Or when you're asking questions, all three of us don't have to make the same objections. MR. KIM: That's fine. Agree that a Texas notary and Texas court reporter can swear the witness in? MR. BAUER: Sure. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030220 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Today is the 15th of February, 1994. It's 14 minutes after 9:00 a.m., and we're on the record. ROBERT EMMET KELLY, M.D., was called as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, testified as follows: EXAMINATION BY MR. BAUER: Q. Good morning. A. Good morning. Q. Would you please state your name. A. Robert Emmet Kelly, M.D. Q. Dr. Kelly, as you know, my name is Scott Bauer. I'm with the law firm of Kirkland & Ellis representing Monsanto Company. Do you understand that you're here today to give a deposition in a case entitled Nevada Power Company vs Monsanto, General Electric Company, and Westinqhouse Electric Company? A. Yes, I do. Q. Where do you live? A. 665 South Skinker, S-k-i-n-k-e-r, St. Louis, Missouri 63105. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030221 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. 00 Are you a medical director -- excuse me. you a medical doctor? Yes, I am. And how old are you. Dr. Kelly? Are Do you -- could you describe your health condition, please? Well, I think it's pretty good for 84. I have an irregular heartbeat. I have some hypertension. A few other minor things. Are you currently under the care of a physician? Yes, I am. Has your doctor placed you under any restrictions ? Yes. He said I should not get in any prolonged -- which is a -- stressful situations, prolonged by -- that means four or five hours. Four hours, I believe is what he specified. Has the doctor approved your going forward with testimony subject to those time restrictions? Yes, he has. Have you ever been employed by Monsanto? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030222 13 1 A. Yes, I have. 2 Q. For what period of time? 3 A. I was employedfrom 1938 --January of 1938 4 until November the 30th, 1974, with the 5 exception of 44 months in the Service. And I 6 was -- after 1974 I was engaged as a 7 consultant with -- two days a week with the 8 company. 9 Q. What was the period of time of your -- of 10 your military service? 11 A. Forty -- from 1942 to 1946. 12 Q. Were you ever Monsanto's medical director? 13 A. Yes, I was. 14 Q. For what period of time were you 15 Monsanto's -- 16 A. Well, I was the first one. Was from March or 17 April of 1942 until November the 30th, 1974. 18 Q. When and where did you obtain your college 19 degree? 20 A. I received a Bachelor's Degree in Science 2 1 from St. Louis University in 1930. It was a 22 combined course with the medical degree, and 23 I received the medical degree in 1932. 24 Q. I'm sorry. Did you say where you received 25 your medical degree? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030223 14 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 11 12 A. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 . Q. 21 22 A . 23 24 Q. 25 St. Louis University. The same institution. Dr. Kelly, are you board certified in any areas of medicine? Yes. I'm board certified in internal medicine, recertified in internal medicine, and also board certified in preventative medicine under the specialty of occupational medicine. What were your job responsibilities when you first started working for Monsanto in the mid-1930's. My job responsibilities was plant physician at the Queny, Q-u-e-n-y, plant in St. Louis. That consisted of taking care of the injuries and occupational conditions that might have resulted from the -- their work, as well as carry out a preventative medical program for the employees to detect and prevent any occupational diseases. When did you formally receive the title "medical director"? When I returned from the Service in March or April of 1942 -- '46. Were you carrying out certain responsibilities of the medical director Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030224 15 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. position prior to that time? Well, I was sort of a medical director without portfolio because if any problem came up in any other plants, I was the only doctor around the headquarters building. So they'd say, "Well, we got a doctor over at the Queny plant. Let's ask him. II And during what period of time was that? That was roughly from, oh, the end of '36 until the beginning of the -- my service in '42. Okay. Dr. Kelly, I believe a little while ago you said that you started working in Monsanto in 1938. And now you just said -- Oh . -- that you started -Did I say '38? -- in 1936. ' 36 . Which is it? It's ' 36 . 1936? That's right. Okay. What were your duties as Monsanto's medical director , starting in 1946 ? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030225 16 1 A. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q. 14 15 16 A . 17 18 19 Q 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 25 A Well, I had responsibility to see that there was adequate medical installations in all our plants, laboratories, sales offices, et cetera. I was responsible for development -- developing an industrial hygiene program which monitored the environment of the workplace. I was responsible -- responsible for obtaining the toxicological information on our products, and I was responsible for disseminating that to our customers and to anybody who asked for it . You mentioned in that answer toxicological properties. Would you define the term "toxic" or "toxicity"? "Toxicity" is an inherent quality of a product of a compound to cause injury to people. Or lack of it. And the toxic property of the -- of a chemical would be what? Harmful property. Do you differentiate between the toxicity of a substance and the hazard associated with the substance? Oh, yes. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030226 17 1 Q. And what's the difference? 2 A. Well, no matter how toxic a product is, if 3 you don't get the chance of absorbing it, it 4 isn't going to hurt you. In other words, if 5 something is inside a kettle or inside a 6 pipe, no matter how toxic it is, it isn't -- 7 there's no particular hazard there. 8 Q. Dr. Kelly, you testified a minute ago that 9 one of your responsibilities as medical 10 director was to gather information about 11 toxicological properties. In carrying out 12 that function, did you have a practice of 13 reviewing medical and scientific articles? 14 A. A what? 15 Q. A practice of - 16 A . Oh . 17 Q. -- reading medical and scientific articles. 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. When did you start that? 20 A. I would say as soon as I started with 2 1 Monsanto. 22 Q. So 1936? 23 A. '36 . 24 Q. Okay. And for how long did you have such a 25 practice? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030227 18 1 A. Up till now. 2 Q. Okay. Did it continue throughout the period 3 of time of your employment - 4 A . Oh, yes. 5 Q. -- through 1974? 6 A. Yes. We subscribed to all the journals, 7 which weren't too many in the early days, in 8 the English language that related to 9 toxicity. 10 Q. Was there a library in the medical department 11 at Monsanto that subscribed to those 12 magazines - 13 A. Well, we had -14 Q. -- and periodicals? 15 A. Yes, we did. We had a librarian. And I 16 don't know what -- she was a sort of -- not 17 a -- she was not a degreed librarian, but she 18 was -- functioned as a librarian. And we 19 engaged her probably sometime after I came 20 back from the Service. But up till that 2 1 time, we did not. There weren't too many 22 journals in the 1930's and Forties. 23 Q. Do you recall some of the names of the 24 prominent journals in the early days? 25 A. There were two in the United States. One was Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030228 19 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. American Journal of Toxicology. "Industrial hygiene and toxicology," I believe the term was. The other was a Journal of the Industrial Medical Association. And there was one in the United Kingdom that was published, the American Journal of -- I mean, the new -- the Journal of Industrial Toxico -- of Industrial Hygiene. That was an English journal. There was also Lancet. L-a-n-c-e-t, which was a general medical journal; but it had from time to time information about workers' health in it. Well, over the years, as the numbers of publications that were related to industrial hygiene and occupational medicine expanded, did Monsanto acquire additional subscriptions? Yes, we did. Dr. Kelly, are you aware that the Nevada Power case involves polychlorinated biphenyl? Yes, I am. Do you also recognize the acronym "PCB" as being polychlorinated biphenyl? Yes, I do. Can you tell us what "chlorinated diphenyl" Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030229 20 1 2 A. 3 4 5 6 Q. 7 8 9 10 A. 11 Q. 12 13 14 A. 15 Q. 16 17 A. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 is? Chlorinated diphenyl is the same as chlorinated biphenyl. It just changed the name sometime along about the Fifties from "di" to "bi." Okay. So during this deposition, if I say "chlorinated diphenyl" or "PCB" or "polychlorinated biphenyl," you understand we're talking about the same substance? Yes, I do. Did you review the available literature on the toxicity of PCBs from the 1930's to the 1970 ' s? Yes, I did. In the English language. Did others in the medical department also review some or all of that literature? Yes. You have to remember that the medical department grew. When we started out, there was myself and a secretary. Then I don't - I engaged a part-time professor at Washington University as an associate medical director. It was a Dr. George Saunders who came onboard probably -- oh, I think he was after the - after 1946. We engaged an Elmer Wheeler, who was an industrial hygienist, in 1946 or '47. Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030230 21 1 2 3 4 5 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 10 Q. 11 12 13 14 A . 15 Q. 16 17 A. 18 19 Q. 20 21 22 23 24 25 When we ended up -- when I left the company, we had four industrial hygienists. We engaged a toxicologist sometime in the early Fifties, I believe. When we left, we had four toxicologists. What was the name of the first toxicologist that you retained? William Hunt. Dr. William Hunt. He's a Ph . D . You mentioned an industrial hygienist, a Mr. Elmer Wheeler. Was -- do you know whether he was reading toxicological literature concerning PCBs? Yes, he was. And after he came onboard, what about Dr. Hunt, the toxicologist? Well, yes, he was also. But he was -- PCBs was a small part of his job. I'd like to focus on electrical equipment now for a minute. Dr. Kelly. Were there any reports in the scientific literature from the 1930's until you retired at the end of 1974, reports in the scientific literature of adverse health effects from people exposed to PCBs that was in electrical equipment? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030231 22 1 It all depends what you mean by "electrical 2 equipment." If by electrical equipment you 3 mean wire, cable - 4Q I'm focusing on for the moment now -- we'll 5 get to the cable coating items in a minute. 6 I'm talking about in -- electrical fluid in 7 electrical equipment, like transformers and 8 capacitors. 9 A . What was the question again? 10 Q. Sure. From the 1930's to the 1970's, do you 11 recall reading anything in the scientific 12 literature about adverse health effects to 13 people who received exposure to PCBs that was 14 in electrical equipment and transformers or 15 capacitors ? 16 A . No, I do not. 17 Q. Did you read any articles during that period 18 of time in which the authors of those 19 articles asserted that PCBs could not be used 20 safely in electrical equipment? 2 1 A . No, I did not. 22 Q. Did you form an opinion as of the 1930's 23 about whether PCBs could be used safely in 24 electrical equipment? 25 A . Yes . Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030232 23 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. MR. KIM: Object. Improper predicate. Go ahead. Yes, I do. It's the same as I have today, that they could be used safely in electrical equipment such as transformers and capacitors . (By Mr. Bauer) Was it your opinion in the 1930's that certain precautions were prudent with respect to PCBs in electrical equipment? Yes . MR. KIM: Same objection. (By Mr. Bauer) And what was your opinion about precautions? You should avoid absorption through the skin. You avoid that by not having prolonged or repeated skin contact. You will avoid breathing the material at elevated temperatures. At room temperature there is no -- not enough vapor pressure to bother you; but if at elevated temperatures or in confined spaces, it could be harmful. Did you acquire more information about the toxicological properties of PCBs over the years after the 1930's? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030233 24 1 A. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 A. 15 16 Q. 17 18 19 20 2 1 A. 22 23 24 25 Yes. I -- we acquired a great deal of lab -- o f animal work, information from animal work. We acquired a great deal of work from the negative history of all our -- of our workers and those of our customers' workers. THE COURT REPORTER: "And those of our" what? THE WITNESS: Beg pardon? THE COURT REPORTER: "Those of our " ? THE WITNESS: -- customers and people exposed to -- or people who used the electrical equipment. We had a lot of negative inform -- negative clinical information. (By Mr. Bauer) Based upon all the information you had after the 1930's up through 1974, did you ever, as Monsanto's medical director, form the opinion that PCBs were unreasonably dangerous? On the contrary. In the use that they were put to, they were quite safe. I would say that material has -- all industrial chemicals have some toxicity. In fact, not only industrial chemicals, chemicals we come in - Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 . WATER PCB-SD0000030234 25 1 use, whether it's a detergent or condiment. 2 Salt could be dangerous. 3 But I had -- I considered PCBs to 4 be of a mild to moderate toxicity, as far as 5 an industrial chemical was concerned. It 6 wasn't supposed to be taken internally. No 7 industrial chemical is supposed to be taken 8 internally. 9 Q. Did there come a time in the late 1960's or 10 early 1970's where you formed the opinion 11 that precautions other than the workers' 12 safety precautions were prudent with respect 13 to PCB electrical fluids? 14 A. In the which? Which years? 15 Q. The late 1960's to early 1970's. You've 16 talked already about the workers' safety 17 precautions. Were there others that came 18 into play at that time? 19 A. In the late Sixties the environmental aspect 20 of discarding PCBs became quite prominent due 2 1 to some work that originated in Europe and 22 was eventually cooperate -- confirmed in the 23 United States. And it showed that it could 24 be an environmental hazard to avian species, 25 a-v-i-a-n, avian species. Birds, especially Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030235 26 1 predatory birds. 2 Q. And -- 3 A. That it might be. 4 Q. -- what -- what additional precautions did 5 you -- did you have the opinion were prudent 6 after that period of time? Let's say around 7 19 7 0 . 8 A. To disposable -- to dispose of used PCBs and 9 discarded equipment in a safe manner, which 10 that varied with the type of material and the 11 type of equipment, whether it was a landfill, 12 whether it was deep injection or 13 incineration. It could be any one of them. 14 Q. Let's go back to the beginning in the 1930's 15 again and talk a little bit about the 16 toxicological properties of PCBs that you 17 did -- that you did have an understanding and 18 opinion about. 19 You've already testified that there 20 were some precautions that were prudent. Was 2 1 that because, in your opinion, there were 22 certain toxic properties of PCBs? 2 3 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. And would you generally describe what 25 those were and your understanding in the Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030236 27 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Q. 1930's. In the Nineteen -- the early 19 3 0's -- I have to start with 1936 -- '37 probably, when they first came to my attention. I knew that if individuals who were working with PCBs -- well, not -- it turned out it was not PCBs. It was -- it was a polychlorinated diphenyl benzene rather than polychlorinated diphenyl, per se. There was an episode, several episodes, of wire coating where a compound called chlorinated naphthalene, N-a-p-h-t-h-a-1-e-n-e - chlorinated naphthalene was manufactured by the Halowax, H-a-1-o-w-a-x, Corporation. They used to -- used this to impregnate wire coating for insulating properties. In one of their formulations, a 10 percent solution, or 10 percent mixture, of chlorinated diphenyl benzene -- THE COURT REPORTER: What? THE WITNESS: Chlorinated diphenyl benzene, B-e-n-z-e-n-e. -- was used. That was these workers. (By Mr. Bauer) Let me stop you there for a second, Dr. Kelly. Was there a Monsanto Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030237 28 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 7 8 Q. 9 10 A. 11 Q. 12 13 14 A. 15 Q. 16 17 18 A. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 product in any of those mixtures that you were talking about? The chlorinated diphenyl -Yes, uh-huh. -- benzene was a manufactured -- was a Monsanto product. MR. KIM: Objection. (By Mr. Bauer) Okay. Do you recall the number designation for that product? Yes. It was 4465. Okay. And were you saying that 4465 was a mixture of -- of chlorinated diphenyl and chlorinate diphenyl benzene? That's correct. Okay. All right. I'm sorry. And in very general terms, what was the result of information that you received in the,1930's? Oh, it was pretty disastrous in some cases. These individuals absorbed a great deal of the Halowax mixture; and the majority of cases, by far the majority of cases, were Halowax alone without any chlorinated diphenyl benzene in it. And they developed chloracne, which is a situation similar to teenage acne but much more generalized. It's Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030238 29 1 a more serious type. It lasts longer, and 2 it's associated with black pigmentation 3 around the face. And in some cases, after 4 sufficient absorption, chemical hepatitis 5 occurred; and several of the people who were 6 exposed to this over prolonged periods of 7 time died. 8 Q. Was it your opinion in the 1930's that 9 chlorinated diphenyl alone in sufficient dose 10 could cause chloracne? 11 A . Yes . 12 Q. Was it your opinion in the 1930's that 13 chlorinated diphenyl alone in sufficient dose 14 caused liver damage to experimental animals? 15 A . In sufficient dose at elevated temperatures, 16 yes . 17 Q- Was it your opinion, therefore, that it was 18 prudent to limit exposure to humans? 19 A . Yes . 20 Q. 21 I'd like to switch now to -- for a moment to the topic of the responsibility for toxicity 22 and safe handling instructions. 23 During the time that you were 24 medical director of Monsanto, what department 25 had the responsibility for approving toxicity Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030239 30 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 Q 8 9 A. 10 11 12 13 Q. 14 15 16 17 A . 18 Q 19 20 A 21 22 23 24 25 and safe handling instructions that were given to customers? The medical department. Was that practice implemented at your request ? Yes . Why did you request that that practice be implemented? Well, because the medical department knew more about the toxic properties of Monsanto products than anybody -- any other group in the company. Were there a number of different methods by which information about toxicity and safe handling was disseminated to Monsanto's customers ? Oh, yes. Could you generally describe the various means ? Yes. It all depends on the level of worker we were talking with. In other words, you start off with the labels. The label eventually is this thing that goes down to the worker on the factory floor. On that - on the label we would put what was a safe Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030240 31 1 2 3 Q. 4 A. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 handling data -- safe handling procedures to avoid injury. Okay. And - That was universal on our products. Then we had development bulletins. A development bulletin would be, "We've got product 'X.' These are the characteristics of it," the physical characteristics, the suggested uses. They would be sent to any prospective user of a product, even though we were not exactly sure what he wanted it for. There we put more information. We put what toxicological information we had with our own experience with our employees, as far as lack of illness was concerned, and whatever animal toxicity information we possessed. Then there was a marketing bulletin which with a compound was used, was already for the market we had a definite sales target for it. It was going to be used in a particular manner. We expend -- we expanded that information with relation to the proposed use. Then, of course, we had direct Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030241 32 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 communication with doctors, industrial hygienists, customers, purchasing agents who would call the medical department or write and ask for information; and we were -- these were usually technical people or scientific people. And we would expand what information we had in a letter -- in an individual letter to him with regard to his particular question. So the information we sent out really depended on what particular group we were trying to, should I use the word, "educate . " Q. Do you recall whether information about the toxicity and the safe handling of PCBs was disseminated to Monsanto's customers through one or more of those methods? A. Yes. Through all of them. One or more, certainly. Q. What was Monsanto's policy regarding who responded to inquiries from customers about the potential adverse health effects of Monsanto product? A. The medical department. Supposed somebody came into the -- or salesperson from the Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030242 33 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Detroit sales office goes into Ford Motor. He's got Product X. Says it's PCB. And he's saying to the customer, "What about this product? What do we know about it?" He'd say, "Well, I'll have the medical department call you or write you." And then we do that. Of course, this didn't mean that if the man at Ford Motor said, "Has this thing been used safely?" he wouldn't say, "Well, ask the medical department." He'd say, "Yes. I've sold this to General Motors, Chrysler. They've been using it for five years. They've had no problems." But he would not give the definitive toxic -- toxicological information. Q. That came from who? A. That came from us. Q. Okay. And over what period -- A. The medical department. Q. The medical department? A. Right. Q. Over what period of time was that the practice? Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030243 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 34 Well, it was definitely established from the time I was formally the medical director. But prior to that, say from '38 on, when the people of the company knew me better, they would be happy to buck these things down to the medical department. I mean, to the -- to me at the Queny plant, as a sort of in a sense, I was a medical director without a portfolio on that particular aspect of the position. During the -- after 1946, in that time period, when you testified earlier that you were essentially -- you were essentially were the medical department -- with a secretary, I believe you said -- were you personally responding to inquiries from customers? Oh, yes. I had telephone conversations. I had letters. Not too many on PCB, but we made a bunch of products. As the medical department expanded, did others working for you also respond to customer inquiries? Yes. We were -- when we expanded, we were still a pretty small department. We were in a -- and we all saw each other's Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030244 35 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 correspondence. We had lunch every day. We had some formal meetings once a week. We had contact during the day dozens of times. So we all knew what everybody was doing. And if I were out of town or if something had particular industrial hygiene overtones, Elmer Wheeler or one of the other industrial hygienists would do the -- would answer the letter. Sometime they went out over his signature, sometime over mine. And when it went out over my signature that I signed, I certainly reviewed and I saw the correspondence -- I mean, I certainly reviewed it before it went out. And the ones that he signed, I would see the carbons of it; and we were both on the same wavelength as far as dispensing the information was concerned. Q. Were there -- were there times when he prepared initial drafts of letters that you signed? A . Yes. Q. Were there times that he prepared letters and signed them but asked you to review them before they went out? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030245 36 1 A. 2 Q. 3 A. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Q. 12 13 14 A. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Yes. This being Elmer Wheeler? Yes. Well, it was not only Elmer Wheeler. Sometime Jack Garrett. If there was a particular -- this wasn't universal. It didn't happen all the time. It was strictly a question of industrial hygiene material which he knew -- information which he knew more than I did about industrial hygiene, he would answer it himself. We've already talked a little bit about Mr. Wheeler. When do you recall he joined Monsanto as an industrial hygienist? I came back from the Service in '46. He joined, I believe, in '46 or '47. He had been an ihdustrial hygienist at the Army Laboratory of Industrial Hygiene. He had been an industrial hygienist for one of the New England states. I think it was either Vermont or New Hampshire or something like one of those. He was quite experienced in industrial hygiene. In the early Forties there weren't too many industrial hygienists. I guess we probably started the industrial hygiene department when there were Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030246 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 A. 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 11 A. 12 13 14 . 15 16 17 18 19 Q. 20 21 A. 22 Q. 23 24 25 only a half a dozen companies had them. And you also now mentioned a second name Jack Garrett. When did he join Monsanto, approximately? Approximately early Fifties -- around that, I believe -- he joined the medical department. Then he was a research chemist at the Texas City operations. Was Mr. Wheeler involved in the American Industrial Hygiene Association? Yes. He was a member. First I got to say what the American Industrial Hygiene Association was. It's a group of industrial hygienists. Just like the AMA is a group of physicians, it's a group of industrial hygienists. He was engaged in, he had many offices. He ended up being president of it for one particular year. Do you recall approximately when Mr. Wheeler was president of that association? Sixties, I guess. Sometime late Sixties. All right. Was there another organization that medical directors frequently belonged to, of medical directors of different companies ? Martin & Associates (409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030247 38 1 A. There's American Academy of Occupational 2 Medicine. There was a Medical Directors 3 Forum, which was sort of a group of 35 or 40 4 people of medical directors of multi-plant 5 operations. I think those are the only two. 6 Q. Was that a forum for medical directors to 7 share information about issues of common 8 concern? 9 A. Yes. There's also an Industrial Medical 10 Association, which anybody who was interested 11 in industrial medicine can join, and 12 eventually changed its name to the American 13 Occupational Medical Association. But the 14 criteria for joining it was not particularly 15 strict, whereas the criteria for joining the 16 Medical Directors Forum was quite strict, as 17 well as for the American Academy of 18 Occupational Medicine. You had to be a 19 full-time physician in the industry. 20 Q. Was the American Industrial Hygiene 2 1 Association a forum for industrial hygienists 22 to share information about issues? 23 A. Yes . 24 Q. All right. Let's move back now to Monsanto's 25 production and uses of polychlorinated Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030248 39 1 biphenyls and move back to the 1930's again. 2 Do you recall when Monsanto started 3 producing polychlorinated biphenyls known 4 then as chlorinated diphenyl? 5 A. Not exactly. I came, as I said, in March 6 of '36. They were manufacturing it then, and 7 the information I received or that I gathered 8 at that time was that a company called a 9 Swann Chemical Company, S-w-a-n-n, had 10 manufactured chlorinated PCBs starting 11 sometime around the early Thirties, 1931 12 or '32. Monsanto took over Swann in either 13 1936 or 1935, and we continued the 14 manufacture and sale of the product then. 15 Q. Okay. For how long did Monsanto manufacture 16 and sell PCBs? 17 A. Till after I left. I think it was 1977 18 they -- or '76 or '77 they discontinued it. 19 Q. There's some additional terms that we'll be 20 using during the day today that I'd like to 2 1 get out on the table now. 22 What was Monsanto's trade name for 23 the chlorinated biphenyl -- chlorinated 24 diphenyl? 25 A. It was Aroclor, but it -- also, Aroclor was Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030249 40 1 2 3 Q. 4 A. 5 Q. 6 A. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. 16 17 A . 18 Q. 19 20 21 A. 22 23 24 25 used as a trade name for chlorinated diphenyl benzene or chlorinated terphenyl. Okay. And how do you spell Aroclor? A-r-a-c-l-o-r [sic]. Do you know what "Pyranol" is? Yes. I know generally. I don't know all the constituents. Pyranol is a trademark name for a dielectric patented by General Electric. It's their product. And it contains PCBs, and it also contains in some formulations trichlorobenzene. And of course, there's scavengers and some other things that I don't know about that are in there. Do you know what Inerteen is? That's I-n-e-e-r-t -- no. -- e-e-n . I-n-e-r-t-e-e-n -- t-e-e-n. MR. KIM: Spell that again. MR. BAUER: I-n-e-r-t-e-e-n. That's Westinghouse's copyright name for chlorinated diphenyl benzene for a dielectric fluid, which contains -- in some cases contains trichlorobenzene along with the PCBs. Whether they use the term "Inerteen" Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030250 41 1 in capacitor filling, I just don't know. 2 Q. (By Mr. Bauer) Okay. So both Pyranol and 3 Inerteen would contain chlorinated diphenyl, 4 or what we call "PCB" today? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. And some Aroclors were PCB? 7 A. Say that over. 8 Q. Some Aroclors, some substances sold by 9 Monsanto as Aroclor, contained chlorinated 10 diphenyl, or what we call "PCB" today? 11 A. Well, they were, yes. Some of the Aroclors 12 were PCBs, some of them were still called 13 Aroclor but they were chlorinated diphenyl 14 benzene, which is a different property. 15 Q. You -- strike that. 16 Do you know when, approximately, 17 the electrical fluid use of PCBs was 18 developed? 19 A. No, I don't. I know it was developed by GE 20 and it was patented by GE, but I don't know 2 1 when . 22 Q. Was Monsanto making PCBs for use in 23 electrical equipment at the time you started 24 working with the company in the mid to late 25 1930's? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030251 42 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 A. 7 8 9 A. 10 11 12 13 14 Q. 15 16 17 18 A. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Yes , they were. Did you understand at that time that there were benefits to using PCBs in electrical fluid to be used in transformers and capacitors? Oh, yes . MR. KIM: Objection. Improper predicate. Improper foundation. They were relatively nonflammable. The substitute -- the other compound was mineral oil, which burns a little sort of like gasoline. And PCBs did not have that particular product -- property. (By Mr. Bauer) Would you briefly describe, please, other uses of PCBs that developed over the years, other than the electrical fluid that we've been talking about. Yes. There were -- other uses were heat transfer agencies. In other words, if you were heating a particular compound inside your building and you didn't want a heating element in there, you would have the heating element outside the building; and that would -- that heating element would contain PCBs, which at that was called Therminol, Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030252 43 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 T-h-e-r-m-i-n-o-1, in that application so that you'd heat it out here and it would go through the pipes into the particular area that you wanted heated. That was the heat transfer use. There was also a hydraulic use. There it was called Pidraul, P-i-d-r-a-u-1 . In other words, if you're using a die-casting machine or something like that. Now we're getting outside of my field a little bit. MR. KIM: Then I'll object to speculation. THE WITNESS: Beg pardon? I couldn't hear you. MR. KIM: I said I'm going to object to speculation and improper foundation. You can go ahead and answer. It's just something that we've got to do - THE WITNESS: Okay. MR. KIM: -- to protect our record. Doctor. Q. (By Mr. Bauer) Just -- if you can just briefly describe what Pidraul was for. A. Pidraul was used as a hydraulic fluid, just like hydraulic fluids in your brake. I'm not Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030253 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. saying in your automobile. I don't say that Pidraul was used in that, but it was used as a hydraulic fluid to transmit pressure from one area to the other. It's also used as a plasticizer. It's use started expanding. Whenever you wanted a product that was not inflammable and had some characteristics of a plasticizer. Now, you mentioned earlier that Pyranol and Inerteen were General Electric and -- General Electric's and Westinghouse's trade names for electrical fluids? Yes. Did Monsanto make the PCBs that went into General Electric's Pyranol and Westinghouse's Inerteen? Yes. Monsanto was a sole producer of PCBs in the United States, as far as I know. Okay. Do you know who manufactured the other constituents of Pyranol and Inerteen? No, I don't. You mentioned, for example, trichlorobenzene was sometimes in some formulations. Do you know what company manufactured trichloro - No, I do not . Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030254 45 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Okay. Do you know over the years whether Monsanto was doing all of the blending of the various constituents of Pyranol and Inerteen? I do -As opposed to some other company doing blending. I do know they did blending. I'm not sure what years they did it or how much they did it. They did do it. I'd like to move now to questions about the human experience with PCBs. Were there any PCB related health problems in any of Monsanto's PCB workers during all of the years that you worked for Monsanto? No, sir, there were not. To your knowledge, has Monsanto ever had a personal injury or workers' compensation claim filed against it in relation to PCBs by any of its employees? No. And I would have occasion to see all the compensation cases or injury cases that were considered occupational in nature, and I have no recollection of any of them. And you would have seen those up through Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030255 46 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 A. 10 11 12 13 Q. 14 15 16 17 18 A. 19 20 2 1 Q. 22 A. 23 Q. 24 25 December of 1974? That's correct. Did the fact that Monsanto's PCB workers did not report adverse health effects to you play a role in your opinion about the relative toxicity of PCBs? Yes. Why is that? Well, here's an industrial chemical that we've been using for 40 years, manufacturing for 40 years; and we had no trouble with our workers. Dr. Kelly, during the decades of your employment at Monsanto, do you recall how many times you received outside reports of adverse health effects from people exposed to PCBs? Probably less than half a dozen, I think. Want me to list them if I could remember them? We'll try to go through them - Okay. -- generally here in a minute. But let me ask you another question before you do that. Do any of those reports that you Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030256 47 1 2 3 4 5 6 A. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q. 20 21 22 23 24 25 received from 1936 to 1974 from outside of Monsanto, from exposure to PCBs causing adverse health effects, were any of them related to PCBs in transformers or capacitors ? No, sir, they were not. MR. FEATHERSTONE: Scott, can we take a break? MR. BAUER: Let's take a break. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record. It's 57 minutes after 9:00 o'clock. (A recess was taken.) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: It's 13 minutes after 10:00 o'clock. We're back on the record. (By Mr. Bauer) Dr. Kelly, you testified earlier today that you reviewed scientific literature from the 1930's about chlorinated diphenyl, now known as "PCBs." Would you please look at what's been marked Deposition Exhibit 1 and tell us whether that's one of the articles that you read. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030257 48 1 A. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q. 9 A. 10 Q. 11 A. 12 Q. 13 14 15 A. 16 Q. 17 18 19 20 A. 21 22 23 24 25 This is an article by Jones and Alden called, "An Acneform," A-c-n-e-f-o -- pardon me -- f-o-r-m, "Dermatergosis." I'll have to spell it. I can't even pronounce it. D-e-r-m-a-t-e-r--g-o-s-i-s. That's one of them. It was published in -- probably around -- Do you recall - Yes. I recall. -- approximately when it was published? Yes. 1935 or '36. When you say, "This was one of them," did you mean this was one of the articles that you read? Yes. . All right. What does Jones and article - excuse me. Strike that. What is the Jones and Alden article reporting about? It's reporting about an outbreak of chloracne in employees at a plant manufacturing PCB in Anniston, Alabama. The plant was a Swann Chemical Company. It was not -- this was a plant that was taken over by Monsanto sometime after this article was published. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030258 49 1 Q. So the - 2 A. Around that time. 3 Q. So the workers who were involved in the Jones 4 and Alden reports eventually became Monsanto 5 employees ? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Dr. Kelly, do you recall approximately when 8 you first read the Jones and Alden paper? 9 A. Probably late '36. Probably. Or early '37. 10 I'm not sure. 11 Q. Do you recall whether you attended the 12 symposium put on by Dr. Drinker in June of 13 1937? 14 A. '37 ? 15 Q . Yes. 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. And is it your recollection that you read the 18 Jones and Alden article - 19 A. I'd read this before then. That's correct. 20 Q. Before going to the symposium? 2 1 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Do you recall whether -- how long before you 23 went to the symposium you read it? 24 A. No, I don't. 25 Q. All right. Do you recall whether the Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030259 50 1 2 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 A . 12 13 14 Q. 15 A . 16 Q. 17 18 A . 19 20 21 22 23 Q 24 25 chloracne outbreak at the Anniston plant occurred several years before you read the article? Yes, it did. Okay. After you became a doctor for Monsanto, did you go to visit the workers at Monsanto's Anniston plant? Yes, I did. Did you see and speak with any of the specific workers who were in the PCB unit? Yes. I certainly don't remember their names; but I spoke with some of them, yes, and looked at their faces. And approximately when was that? Gosh. '36 or '37. I'm not sure when. Did those workers have chloracne at that time? They did not. They had some residue. They had some small scarring around their face where the pustules had been opened. But there was no active chloracne and no other symptoms. Was there a plant physician at the Anniston plant when you went to visit it in the mid-1930's? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030260 51 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q. 17 18 19 A. 20 Q. 2 1 A. 22 23 24 25 Yes, there was. A Dr. Martin. Did you discuss the workers in the PCB unit with Dr. Martin? Yes, I did. And what was -- what were his conclusions about the health of those workers? Well, he said whatever testing he would do on them -- first of all, they had no clinical symptoms outside of the -- outside of the chloracne. Some of them complained of fatigue, but his clinical examination was negative. And what laboratory work was available to check out liver functions, he did; and he said they were -- turned out to be negative. Now, you testified in Anniston that there was no -- there were no clinical symptoms. What do you mean - With the exception of fatigue. What do you mean by that? Well, "Do you feel sick?" In other words, "Do you have any particular complaints? Do you have any pains? Do you have any nausea? Do you have any headaches? Do you have" - there's a difference between "symptoms" and Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030261 52 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. "signs." "Symptom" is not an objective finding. A "sign" is chloracne. It's a pigmentation or pustules or swelling of the glands in the skin, whereas a "symptom" - as I said, headache, nausea, diarrhea, et cetera. Did you have discussions in the 1930's with Dr. Martin or others about the cause of the chloracne problem that occurred earlier at the Anniston plant? Yes, I did. And what did you learn? Well, I learned that it was the belief that the chloracne episode was caused when Swann Chemical changed their benzene supplier. They ended up with a product that was a different color than their usual one and ended up with some different dielectric constants, properties, and also ended up with giving the people, the workers, chloracne. So they decided to get smart and change back to the original benzene supplier and the color came back to normal and the dielectric Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030262 53 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 . 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. constants came back to normal and they - were no more development of chloracne. So -- Did that change-back in the benzene supply occur before you visited the Anniston plant? Yes, it had. Was that conclusion, that there was a problem with the benzene supply, reported by Drs . Jones and Alden in the -- their article which we've marked as Exhibit 1? Yes, it was. Did Monsanto manufacture PCBs at the Anniston plant from whenever it purchased the plant in '35 or so up through the time you retired? Yes, it did. Was there ever any chloracne problem during that entire period of time? There was none. None with the workers in the PCB unit there? That's correct. All right. And did Monsanto later make PCBs in another plant? Yes. We made one in -- we made some PCBs in our East St. Louis plant, also called the Krummerich, K-r-u-m-m-e-r-i-c-h, plant. We also made it in one of the United Kingdom. I Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030263 54 1 think it was in Wales or someplace in 2 England. 3 Q . Is there -4 MR. KIM: Can I ask him just real 5 quickly? Is the East St. Louis plant, the 6 Krummerich plant, also the Sauget plant? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 MR. KIM: Okay. 9 THE WITNESS: S-a-u-g-e-t. Also 10 called Plant B when I started. 11 12 (Discussion off the record.) 13 14 Q. (By Mr. Bauer) Did you receive any reports 15 of chloracne among the workers that 16 manufactured PCB at the Krummerich plant 17 during the entire time that you were medical 18 director? 19 A . I did not. 20 Q. Separate and apart from the work by 2 1 Drs. Jones and Alden, do you know whether 22 Swann did any other investigation into the 23 source of the chloracne problem? 24 A. Yes. I have seen reports from a Dr. Flinn -25 F-l-i-n-n, I believe -- at Columbia Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030264 55 1 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Q. 15 16 17 18 19 A. 20 21 22 23 24 25 University in New York. I believe they engaged him to do some patch testing. I don't know if he did any animal testing on them, on the particular product. Do you recall what Dr. Flinn's conclusion was ? Yes. He thought there was some impurity in the -- in the product that -- in the PCBs . And he came out with -- he was never definite about it. But I don't think he ever -- he talked about something with a styrene compound. Or I don't know which, but it was -- it certainly wasn't very definite. Do you recall that Doctors -- strike that. Let me back up and ask you: Do you know how Drs. Jones and Alden got involved in the -- in the chloracne issue with respect to Anniston? No, I don't. I have to assume that Dr. Martin sent them to them. These people were dermatologists in Atlanta, I believe. And Anniston is about -- I don't know how far it is from -- I think it was Atlanta. Either Atlanta or Birmingham. I don't know where they were. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030265 56 2 3 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 10 11 12 13 A. 14 Q, 15 16 17 18 19 20 A 21 22 23 24 25 Well, I'm -- I wasn't asking you to assume whether Dr. Martin did it or not. What I was asking you was: Were they -- were they involved clinically in treating the workers who were exposed? Oh, yes. Okay. And -- strike that. Do you recall whether Drs. Jones and Alden reported in the paper that we've marked as Exhibit 1 that an impurity that they thought was chlorinated styrene was the source of the chloracne problem? Yes . Was that your understanding as to the source of the chloracne problem when you were working at Monsanto in the late 1930's, that the earlier problem at the Anniston plant had been the result of chlorinated styrene in the benzene? Well, I wasn't an authority of what the impurity was; and I wasn't sure that everybody was saying Jones and Alden were right on the impurity. I recognized the fact there was an impurity in that particular batches -- those particular batches that were Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030266 1 2 Q. 3 A. 4 5 Q. 6 A. 7 8 9 10 11 12 Q. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A 22 23 24 25 made . And - I don't know what it was, and I don't think anybody else knew what it was in those days. And the problem was resolved how? By changing back to getting something that didn't have that contaminant, whatever it was, in it. Everybody believed it was the benzene, but it was a contaminant of benzene that carried through and was chlorinated along with the benzene. All right. Let's switch now to the Harvard symposium in 1937. You testified a little earlier about wire coating problems and Halowax and chlorinated naphthalene. And you also mentioned a symposium in 1937. Let's first back up and ask you to tell us what your understanding is of what is -- what is Halowax? Halowax is a product -- was. I don't know if it's still around -- of the Halowax Corporation, H-a-1-o-w-a-x, which was a subsidiary of Union Carbon and Carbide. I don't know what they called it, if that was Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 7 62-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030267 58 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. the same name they use today. That was a whole series of compounds that had quite a few uses. The one we're talking about is a -- use of it as an insulating -- insulating agent in cotton or covering of wires. The -You mentioned electrical wires earlier. It was -- it was used how with respect to electrical wires? It impregnated the coating. And I don't know what the coating was. The coating was a fabric. If you're -- you're not young enough to realize it. When you used to have electrical wire and you pulled on it, you'd get some brown stuff on your hands. It wasn't a vinyl or a rubber compound. It was a -- sort of a sticky covering that you got your hands brown. That was chlorinated naphthalene. And -So is this something different than electrical fluids that were used in transformers and capacitors? Oh, yes. Now, you earlier mentioned that one of the constituents of HaIowax was chlorinated naphthalene; is that correct? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030268 59 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. All right. 3 A. That was a major constituent. 4 Q. All right. Is that something different than 5 PCBs ? 6 A. It's chlorinated naphthalene. 100 percent 7 different. It's a different horse entirely. 8 Q. All right. And did Monsanto manufacture 9 chlorinated naphthalene that went into 10 Halowax compounds? 11 A. No, it did not. 12 Q. All right. Now, you also mentioned a 13 constituent of Halowax that was chlorinated 14 diphenyl benzene. Is that something 15 different than what we call PCBs today? 16 A. Yes. It has another benzene ring on it. 17 It's a different compound. 18 Q. All right. Was chlorinated diphenyl benzene 19 part of a Monsanto product that went into 20 some of the Halowax compounds? 2 1 A. Yes, it was. 22 Q. All right. Were some of the Halowax 23 compounds straight chlorinated naphthalene? 24 A . Yes. 25 Q. All right. And do you recall what percentage Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030269 60 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. of a Monsanto product was in any of the Halowax compounds? Yes. The impression I gathered was there was 10 percent in one formulation. They had 90 percent chlorinated naphthalene and 10 percent chlorinated diphenyl benzene, which was a Monsanto product. Now, a mixture of chlorinate diphenyl benzene and PCBs. So it was really 5 percent PCB in the mixture, 5 percent or less than 5 -- somewhat less than 5 percent PCB. Around 6 percent or so of chlorinated diphenyl benzene and 90 percent Halowax Okay. -- in this one formulation. Now, the mixture of chlorinated diphenyl and chlorinated diphenyl benzene, the two Monsanto products, is that what you earlier referred to as "4465"? Yes. I don't know if I talked about that today, but that's what it's -- that was the Monsanto designation for it. All right. Now, you mentioned earlier that there were some people who were exposed to the wire coating product, the Halowax Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030270 61 1 compounds, that suffered health problems. 2 And there were even several deaths? 3 A . That's correct. 4 Q. All right. Now, how were they exposed to the 5 Halowax compounds? 6 A . They were exposed -- well, I don't know. 7 I've never been in a wire coating factory. 8 Q. All right. Was there discussions of that at 9 the symposium? 10 A . Yes. The impression was that it was mostly 11 skin absorption, although I'm not sure 12 whether they talked about the inhalation 13 avenue of exposure. I don't know. 14 But they -- they probably -- the 15 impression I gathered was they had to heat 16 this wire -- heat the stuff what they put on 17 the wire. But these people were grossly 18 contaminated as far as their skin was 19 concerned. 20 Q. 21 And they were grossly contaminated with chlorinated naphthalene, chlorinated diphenyl 22 benzene, and chlorinated diphenyl in the case 2 3 of one of the Halowax products? 24 A . That's correct. 25 Q. All right. And do you recall whether any of Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030271 62 1 the people that suffered serious injuries 2 received those injuries as a result of 3 exposure to the Halowax compound that was 4 just chlorinated naphthalene? 5 A. Yes. Some of the reports I read, some of the 6 deaths were -- I do not recall any of the 7 deaths being associated with the Halowax 8 compound that contained the chlorinated 9 diphenyl benzene. 10 Q. And what about the chlorinated diphenyl? 11 A. Well, no. The only -- no. That's the same 12 thing. I mean, they had the same -- if 13 they -- 14 Q. The mixture product, the 4465 that we talked 15 about ? 16 A. That's what I'm talking about, yes. 17 Q. All right. Who requested that Dr. Drinker 18 start some animal studies with respect to 19 these -- the three compounds that we've 20 talked about? 2 1 A. Somebody at Halowax. 22 Q. Okay. Did -- and they were a Monsanto 23 customer at the time? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. And did they talk to you about that? Martin .& Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030272 1 A. 2 3 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q. 7 A. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. 16 17 18 A . 19 20 Q. 21 22 23 24 A 25 Yes, they talked to me. Not about who to pick or what to do, but how much to get some money to pay for this. Some money to pay for what? The work. And what was your response? Well, "I'll look. I'll check it out." So I talked to the people in charge of the marketing and said, "Do you want to go along with Halowax on this?" And so they did. I don't know what the percentage we paid; or at the present time, I don't know how much it was. Toxicological expenses were much cheaper in those days than they are now. Do you recall whether Halowax Corporation or Monsanto paid for the majority of the expense for the Drinker work? Oh, yes, I think so. They -- but Halowax paid for the majority of the expense. Do you know whether any other company, other than Halowax and Monsanto, contributed to the Drinker -- the funding for the Drinker work? MR. KIM: I'll object - I don't know. MR. KIM: -- to the -- excuse me, Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 ' WATER PCB-SD0000030273 1 Doctor. 2 I'll object to your question. 3 There's a mischaracterization in that I think 4 he only testified that Halowax funded it. I 5 don't believe he indicated Monsanto did. 6 But - - 7 MR. BAUER: Well, I thought he just 8 said that when you turned around. But let's 9 just ask him right now. 10 Q. 11 (By Mr. Bauer) What was your recollection about whether Monsanto contributed to the 12 funding for Dr. Drinker's work? 13 A. We did. I don't know what percentage or I 14 don't know the amount now but I thought it 15 was under 25,000. I don't know. That's the 16 impression I got. 17 Q. And you don't recall the total cost, so you 18 don't recall the percentage? 19 A. I don't know. I don't know. When you talk 20 about the Drinker work, there was some work 2 1 after that first symposium that Monsanto 22 defrayed completely itself. 23 Q. All right. So the shared funding arrangement 24 with Halowax related to work done prior to 25 the symposium? Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 7 62-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030274 65 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. And then Monsanto hired Dr. Drinker on its 3 own after the symposium? 4 A. Yes . 5 Q. All right. 6 A. I don't like the word "hired," but engaged 7 him. 8 Q. Engaged his services? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. All right. And Dr. Drinker was with what 11 organization? 12 A. Harvard University. Whether it was the 13 Harvard School of Public Health -- he was a 14 well-recognized -- there were two Drinker 15 people, Phillip and Cecil; and one of them 16 invented the iron lung, which -- but he was a 17 well-known paramedical. He was a Ph.D. He 18 was not an M.D. 19 Q. Did Dr. Drinker present the summary results 20 of his work at the symposium at Harvard in 2 1 June of 1937? 22 A. Yes. The work that he had done obviously up 23 till then. 24 Q. Right. And were you present for that? 25 A . Yes, I was. Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030275 66 1 Q. Were you present during discussions 2 afterwards among the people that were at the 3 symposium? 4 A. Yes, I was. 5 Q. Do you recall anyone else who was present? 6 A. Well, there were about 40 or 50 people. 7 There was a state office -- health offices 8 from the New England states. There was 9 people from industry. There was Dr. Vosburgh 10 from GE was there. There was Dr. von 11 Oettingen, who was a toxicologist from 12 DuPont. There was quite a collection of 13 authorities of one sort or other there. 14 Q. You mentioned Dr. Vosburgh from General 15 Electric. Did you know Dr. Vosburgh at that 16 time? 17 A. I met him then. I don't believe I knew him 18 before then. 19 Q. All right. What can you tell me about 20 Dr. Vosburgh? 2 1 A. Well, he was in the business before I 22 started. He was -- I don't know when he 23 started with GE, but he was a well-known 24 occupational physician -- 25 Q. Well, what -- Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030276 67 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 A. 13 14 Q. 15 A. 16 17 Q. 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. 24 25 -- at that -- Sorry. What was his position with General Electric? Medical director. All right. Do you recall how long he was medical director after 1937? No, I don't. Did anyone at the symposium discuss any experience that any of the General Electric operations had with respect to Halowax compounds ? Yes. I don't know if Vosburgh did it, but I think some of the manufacturing people did. And what do you recall about that? Well, I can recall it if I look at that paper. They said we had problems. All right. Well, you -- we can look at the paper in a minute. But let me just get your general recollection as to whether it was related to a wire coating operation that General Electric had or a transformer and capacitor operation. Oh. It was all wire coating. There was nothing -- no mention of transformers or capacitors at this time. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030277 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 68 After the symposium did you have discussions with Dr. Vosburgh about the experience with the transformer and capacitor workers that were putting PCBs fluids in transformers and capacitors at General Electric? Yes, although I can't recall how specific I was. But I -- at that particular time, there weren't too many people who were -- or too many medical directors who were around to -- there just weren't too many medical directors, period. And there was only this one big meeting where industrial hygienists and occupational physicians went. And I would see Vosburgh there, and I would -- knew him from the Drinker business. And I talked to him. But at that particular time, PCBs were still a popular topic. GE was a big customer of ours, and Vosburgh and I had mutual interests in PCBs. So I would talk and say, "Are you having any problems?" And he'd say, "No." And I don't specifically know whether I said, "Do you have any problems with the capacitor workers," or not. But he would ask me, "How are you Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030278 69 1 getting along? How are your people doing?" 2 I would say, "We haven't seen anything." 3 And that's about the -- when you 4 say "discussion," it wasn't a formal thing. 5 We didn't sit down and say, "Let's talk about 6 PCBs . " But it was brought up in our 7 conversations . 8 Q. All right. Do you recall Dr. Vosburgh ever 9 reporting to you that there were health 10 problems among the transformer and capacitor 11 workers that were putting PCB electrical 12 fluids - 13 A. No. His reports were always negative. He 14 had no reports of any ill effect of 15 transformer workers. In fact, I don't know 16 if they still kept on using Halowax or not or 17 if he had any of his cable workers after 18 that. 19 Q. 20 More broadly, do you recall whether anyone from General Electric's medical department 2 1 ever reported to you health problems from 22 workers that were using PCBs in the 23 manufacture of transformers or capacitors? 24 A. No. But I don't recall talking to anybody 25 outside of Vosburgh. But the answer to your Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030279 70 1 question is "no." 2 Q. Did Mr. Wheeler or Mr. Garrett or anyone else 3 in the Monsanto medical department tell you 4 that they'd been informed by General Electric 5 that General Electric's transformer and 6 capacitor workers were experiencing any 7 health problems from exposure to PCBs? 8 A. No, they did not. 9 Q. Let's go back to the Drinker symposium. Did 10 Dr. Drinker publish an article about his 11 tests in the symposium in a periodical? 12 A. Yes, he did. 13 Q. Would you turn to what's marked as Exhibit 2 14 and tell us -- well, identify Exhibit 2 for 15 us . 16 A. Exhibit 2 is a "Symposium on Certain 17 Chlorinated Hydrocarbons" under the auspices 18 of the Harvard School of Public Health, 19 June 30th, 1937. He lists three papers. 20 Q. All right. Is Exhibit 2 -- well, first of 2 1 all, is Exhibit 2 a document that was the 22 same -- the same paper was summarized or 23 discussed at the symposium? 24 A. Yes, it was. It is. 25 Q. And then it was subsequently published in the Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030280 71 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 A. 6 7 8 Q. 9 10 A . 11 Q. 12 13 A . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Journal of Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology? That's correct. September, 1937. All right. Was that one of the periodicals that you had a subscription of at Monsanto? Yes. It also disbanded. I don't know what happened to it, but it isn't published anymore. But it was one of the ones we had. All right. And did you receive a copy of Exhibit 2 in 1937? Yes, I did. Can you generally describe the types of tests that Dr. Drinker performed? Yes. He did inhalation studies of which he exposed rats to measured amounts of various compounds. He did some -- I think he did some feeding, also; but I'm trying to find that. Yes. He did feeding tests on chlorinated naphthalenes and also on chlorinated diphenyl, which he called "chlorinated diphenyl." So he did a -- he also did a few subcutaneous injections. So he did a pretty thorough series of tests, certainly from 1937. It was pretty good work. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030281 72 1 Q. And he reported that the products that he did 2 these studies on were chlorinated 3 naphthalenes? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And he also reported that he did work on a 6 Monsanto product? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. And what did he report in the 1937 paper the 9 product was? 10 A. He said it was chlorinated diphenyl. 11 Q. All right. Now, turn to what's marked 12 Exhibit 3 and identify that for us, please. 13 A. This is a second of three papers read at the 14 symposium by Dr. Bennett, a pathologist. 15 This -- the title was, "Morphological," 16 M-o-r-p-h-o-l-o-g-i-c-a-1, "Changes in the 17 Livers of Rats Resulting from Exposure to 18 Certain Chlorinated Hydrocarbons." In other 19 words, this is a pathology that he found 20 out - - 2 1 Q. Was -- 22 A. -- after their experiments. 23 Q. Was Exhibit 3 also a paper presented at the 24 1937 symposium? 25 A. Yes, it was. Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030282 73 1 Q. And was it subsequently published in the 2 Journal of Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology 3 in 1938? 4 A. Yes, it was. February, '38. 5 Q. And did you receive and review a copy of this 6 article in 1938? 7 A . Yes, I did. 8 Q. Was the Journal of Industrial Hygiene and 9 Toxicology a widely read journal in the 10 industrial -- strike that -- in the 11 occupational medicine field? 12 A. Yes, I think so. It was the only one that 13 was around, also. 14 Q. Do you recall the conclusion of Dr. Drinker 15 and Dr. Bennett with respect to the relative 16 toxicity of chlorinated naphthalene and what 17 they reported in Exhibit 2 and Exhibit 3 were 18 chlorinated diphenyl? 19 A . Yes . 20 Q What do you recall their conclusion was? 21 A. Well, he found that -- he said that 22 chlorinated diphenyl and chlorinated 23 naphthalene were both quite toxic. And he 24 stated that chlorinated di -- what he called 25 chlorinated diphenyl was as toxic as Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030283 74 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 A . 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q 18 19 20 A 21 22 Q 23 24 25 A chlorinated naphthalene. Would you turn to Page 123 of Exhibit 3 and look at the paragraph labeled "4" on the second column. The last sentence of that paragraph says: "Chlorinated diphenyl appears to be the most injurious compound of all those tested." That's right. That's what he said. Do you recall hearing that at the symposium and reading it in Exhibit 2 and Exhibit 3? I got two questions there. I read -- I recall reading it. I don't know how to characterize chlorinated diphenyl at the - if he used that term as the most injurious compound of the whole batch we tested. I don't know that. You don't recall whether he said that at the symposium, but he did put that in the articles that you read? That's correct. He may have said it at the symposium, but I don't recall it. All right. Now, you've testified a couple of times that it's what he reported, was chlorinated diphenyl? That's correct. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030284 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 75 Did you later come to the conclusion that he had misidentified his -- the substance that he was testing and calling chlorinated diphenyl in these papers? Did I come - Yes . Yes. I had the -- came to the conclusion when I got back to St. Louis at that time, over all this, in fact. So I called up Professor Drinker and said, "Look, we don't have" -- "our chlorinated diphenyl, we don't have the clinical experience that shows that this is as bad as you have painted it to be. Where did you get the chlorinated diphenyl? You said it was a chlorinated diphenyl chlorinated to 65 percent. We don't make a chlorinated diphenyl at 65 percent. We make a 62 and a 68. Where did you get it?" He said, "We got it from Halowax." I said, "Well, I don't know how they came to that conclusion, that this is chlorinated diphenyl, because we don't sell them chlorinated diphenyl. We sell them what we" -- "what is chlorinated diphenyl benzene. Why don't you retest this thing, Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030285 76 1 and I'll send you some material right off our 2 production line as close to a 62 percent 3 chlorination as we've got." 4 So I thought. I'll send him the 5 most highly chlorinated one, which is 1268, 6 because the thinking at that day, those days 7 and even today, was that the more chlorine 8 you get in, the more toxic it is. 9 Q. All right. 10 A. So I sent him 1268. 11 Q. Let me stop you there for a minute. 12 Did Dr. Drinker report to you that 13 the Halowax Company identified the sample 14 that he tested in the 1937 work as 15 chlorinated diphenyl? 16 A. I don't know what you mean by "identified." 17 He -- they called it that. 18 Q. Okay. The Halowax Company was the one that 19 called it chlorinated diphenyl - 20 A. Yes. 2 1 Q. -- when they gave the sample to Dr. Drinker? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. And was this the product that we talked 24 earlier about as being 4465? 25 A. Yes . Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030286 77 1 Q. And what is the "65" in "4465" mean? 2 A. 65 percent chlorination of a whole compound. 3 Q. All right. We've talked before -- you've 4 talked before about 1268 and 1262 and various 5 things like that. Was there a -- was there a 6 naming practice at Monsanto where 7 Aroclor 1254 meant a particular thing? 8 A. Yes. It meant chlorinated biphenyl 9 chlorinated to 54 percent average. 10 Q. Okay. So -- 11 A. In other words, there was some 1248 in there, 12 rtiaybe some 1252 in there. But the average of 13 the diphenyl was chlorinated to 54 percent. 14 Q. So the last two digits of Aroclor 1254 means 15 54 percent chlorine? 16 A. 17 Q. That's correct. What do the -- do the first two digits 18 designate something? 19 A. It was an Aroclor. 20 Q. Did the first two digits mean that it was a 2 1 chlorinated diphenyl? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. What about the -- was there also a 5,000 24 series of Aroclors? 25 A. Yes. I don't know how extensive that was. Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030287 78 1 There was a -- the one I remember was 5460. 2 Q. All right. And Aroclor 5460 was what 3 compound? 4 A . It was a chlorinated diphenyl benzene 5 chlorinated to 60 percent. 6 Q. All right. 7 A . Diphenyl benzene could also be called 8 chlorinate terphenyl, which means there's 9 another phenyl ring in it. 10 Q. All right. Was there a 4,000 series, Aroclor 11 4465? 12 A . I don't know about the series. I know there 13 was one compound called 4465. 14 Q. And was a mixture of what? 15 A . Of chlorinated -- chlorinated diphenyl plus 16 5460, which is chlorinated diphenyl benzene. 17 Q. All right. And what did you do after having 1 8 a conversation with Dr. Drinker about his 19 source of chlorinated diphenyl? Or what he 20 labeled as "chlorinated diphenyl"? 21 A. I said, "I don't know what you tested. I can 22 send you some honest to goodness chlorinated 23 diphenyl, and test that." So - 24 Q. 25 A . And did you do that? So I called Anniston and said, "Send him a Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030288 79 1 2 3 Q. 4 5 A. 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 A . 17 Q. 18 A . 19 Q. 20 A . 21 22 Q. 23 24 25 A . couple of quarts of 1268." So we sent it up -- we sent it up to him. Did you also send Dr. Drinker samples of 5460? Yes, I did. (A recess was taken.) (By Mr. Bauer) With respect to the substance that Dr. Drinker labeled 4465 at the symposium and his first two papers, would the conclusion that he reached about the relative toxicity of that compound at that time, did he ever suggest that it was too dangerous to use an electrical fluid? No, he did not. Did he - In the electrical fluid? Right. He wasn't talking about the fluids. He was talking about wire impregnation. I understand that. The -- I understand that what caused his concern was the wire coating. But he never did, no. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030289 80 1 Q. Did he ever -- did he ever -- did Dr. Drinker 2 ever suggest that what he identified as 3 chlorinated diphenyl was too dangerous to use 4 in PCB electrical fluid? 5 A. No, he did not. 6 Q. All right. Did he suggest it was too 7 dangerous to use for any use? 8 A. For what? 9 Q. Any use. Including the wire coating. 10 A. Oh, you mean in electrical? I mean, if - 11 when you say "any," suggests use on a serial 12 or something like that. But any electrical 13 use . 14 Q. All right. Let me ask more specifically. 15 A. Industrial use. 16 Q. All right. There was in -- there was a prior 17 industrial use of the substances, the various 18 Halowax compounds that had been used in a 19 prior industrial use where people had been 20 exposed to it and suffered serious injuries, 2 1 including some deaths. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did Dr. Drinker suggest this as a result of 24 his tests, that the substances that he 25 tested, including chlorinated naphthalene and Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030290 81 1 what he identified as chlorinated diphenyl, 2 was too dangerous to use in the wire coating 3 use ? 4 A. No, he did not. 5 Q. Did anyone at the Drinker symposium state 6 that the substances chlorinated naphthalene 7 or what was identified as chlorinated 8 diphenyl were too dangerous to use as 9 industrial chemicals? 10 A . No. There were several -- on the contrary, 11 there were several people from the Government 12 that said, "There's no reason why these 13 things can't be handled safely." 14 Q. Did anyone at the Drinker symposium state the 15 opinion that chlorinated naphthalenes or 16 chlorinated diphenyls were too dangerous to 17 use in electrical equipment such as 18 transformers or capacitors? 19 A . No, sir. 20 Q. Do you recall a Dr. Schwartz who was at the 2 1 symposium? 22 A . Yes . 23 Q. Who is he? 24 A . Dr. Schwartz was a dermatologist who worked 25 for the United States Public Health Service Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030291 82 1 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 11 12 A . 13 Q. 14 A . 15 Q. 16 A . 17 18 Q. 19 A . 20 Q. 21 22 23 24 A . 25 for a long, long time. I don't know how long. He was guite a man, fairly well-known for his work with skin -- skin problems in the industry. Would you turn next to what's been marked Exhibit 4 in your binder. Dr. Kelly? Yes . That's a report to Monsanto with a cover sheet that states -- that's dated September 15, 1938, and on the second page says "Report on 4465." Yes, sir. Did you receive a copy of Exhibit 4 in 1938? Yes, I did. Can you tell us what this report is? It's a report of work done by Drinker / sponsored by Monsanto. 4465 are material -- He -- -- which was -- Let me stop you there. He identifies 4465 in this paper as chlorinated diphenyl. Do you recall whether this paper was written before or after your discussions with him? Oh, if he -- if he referred to it as chlorinated diphenyl, it was written before Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030292 83 1 my discussion with him. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. I mean, I don't know when he -- this paper, 4 am I looking at the same one you have? It 5 says June, 1937. I don't know what that 6 means. 7 Q. It says June of 1937 in handwriting on the 8 top of the first page? 9 A. Yes . 10 Q. But it has a typed date of what on the 11 first -- on -- 12 A. Of the report, right. 13 Q. Let's go over that again. 14 The typed date on the first page of 15 the report is what? 16 A. Is September 15th, 1938. 17 Q. All right. And what's the handwritten date 18 on the first page of the text? 19 A. June, 1937. 2 0 Q. And do you recall now whether the substance 2 1 that was talked about at the 1937 symposium 22 was reported by him to be 65 percent 23 chlorine? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. All right. Now, you testified a few minutes Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030293 84 1 2 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 9 10 A. 11 Q. 12 13 14 A. 15 Q. 16 17 18 19 20 21 A. 22 Q. 23 24 25 ago that you submitted two samples to Dr. Drinker after you had the conversation with him of two Aroclors. Would you turn next to what's been marked as Exhibit 5? Yes . That's another document entitled, "Report to the Monsanto Chemical Company," by Cecil K. Drinker, with a date on the first page of September 15, 1938. That's correct. And it has four compounds identified as being tested, on the second page. Did you receive a copy of Exhibit 5 in 1938? Yes, I did. The third -- on the second page of the document, which lists -- it's the table of contents. It lists, Compound No. 3, "Chlorinated diphenyl #1268." Is that the sample of chlorinated diphenyl that you sent to Dr. Drinker? Yes. Does the report marked as Exhibit 5 contain the contents of Dr. Drinker's studies that - for the portion of the work that you testified earlier that Monsanto paid 100 Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030294 85 1 percent of the work of? 2 A . Yes . 3 Q. All right. Is Exhibit 4, the prior exhibit. 4 Exhibit 4, the paper that shows the work that 5 was funded jointly by Halowax and Monsanto? 6 A . Yes . 7 Q. What did Dr. Drinker conclude with respect to 8 Chlorinated Diphenyl No. 1268 in Exhibit 5? 9 A. He concluded that Chlorinated Diphenyl 1268 10 was much less toxic than his report on what 11 he had previously identified as a chlorinated 12 diphenyl. He said he was surprised about the 13 low order of magnitude of toxicity of 1268. 14 Q. 15 Did Dr. Drinker publish a subsequent published article after 1938 when he did the 16 report - 17 A . Yes . 18 Q. 19 A . -- that's marked as Exhibit 5? Yes, he did. 20 Q. And is that what we've marked as Exhibit 6? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. 23 And was that also a paper published in the Journal of Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology? 24 A . Yes, it was. 25 Q. Did Dr. Drinker include in this paper a Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030295 86 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 9 10 A . 11 Q. 12 13 14 15 16 A . 17 Q. 18 A . 19 20 2 1 Q. 22 23 24 25 statement of his earlier misidentification of chlorinated diphenyl? Yes. Where is that? It's on Page 158, the third paragraph. It's the -- is it the paragraph that starts on the bottom of Page 158 -- the bottom of the first column on Page 158 and carries over? Yes . All right. Now, Dr. Kelly, are you testifying that because of Dr. Drinker's misidentification of the compound initially, that chlorinated diphenyl had no toxic properties at all? No, I'm not testifying to that. All right. I'm testifying that it didn't have the toxic properties that he stated it had. But it had some, certainly. And as a result of those toxic properties, was it your opinion in the 1930's, the 1940's, and the 1950's that it was prudent to take steps to limit human exposure to chlorinated diphenyl? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030296 87 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 Q. 10 11 A . 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Q. 19 A . 20 Q. 21 22 A . 23 Q. 24 25 Yes . Did the literature in the 1930's, Forties, and Fifties also demonstrate to you that there was a safe level of exposure to chlorinated diphenyl? What years? Thirties, Forties, and Fifties. Yes . Would you turn next to what's been marked Exhibit 7 and identify that for us? Yes. This is an article by Dr. Meigs, M--e-i-g-s, which appeared in -- someplace. Oh, the Journal of the American Medical Association, April of 1954, entitled, "Chloracne from an Unusual Exposure to Arochlor." He spelled "Aroclor" wrong, but it's -- Did you read Dr. Meigs' article in 1954? Yes, I did. . Did you write a letter to Dr. Meigs after you read Exhibit 7? Yes, I did. Would you turn to Exhibit 8 and tell us whether that's a copy of the letter that you wrote to Dr. Meigs? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030297 88 1 A. Yes, it is. 2 Q. There's no signature on Exhibit 8. Did you 3 have a practice in the 1950's of maintaining 4 file copies of correspondence that were 5 unsigned? 6 A. Yes. I never signed the carbon copy. 7 Q. Okay. Is Exhibit 8 a copy of the letter that 8 you sent to Dr. Meigs in 1954? 9 A. Yes, it is. 10 Q. Now, you state in the first sentence of 11 Exhibit 8: "Your article in the current 12 number of the JAMA is certainly confusing to 13 me . " 14 Why did you tell that to Dr. Meigs? 15 A. Well, the second sentence explains it: "We 16 have had men exposed to concentrations of 17 chlorinated diphenyl four or five times what 18 you have recorded..." We have had them 19 exposed for five to ten years and have no 20 chloracne. Here you've said you've got 2 1 something one fifth this level for a period 22 of definite months, not years, and you get 23 chloracne. How come? I mean, no wonder I'm 24 confused. 25 Q. All right. Now, the article that's been Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030298 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 89 marked Exhibit 7 has a report in it, on the first column on Page 1418, that the state Department of Health had done some air concentration samples several months before the diagnosis of chloracne and there were reports of point one milligram per cubic meter of chlorinated hydrocarbon in the air. Right. Do you recall how that related to what was considered the safe level of exposure at that time? It was one-fifth the level for 1242 and one-tenth the level -- or for 1254 and one-tenth the level for either 42 or 48. I don't know which. I think it was 42. Work sponsored by Monsanto showed that the material could be used at levels of point five milligrams per cubic meter in the atmosphere of workers for an eight-hour day for their working lifetime. And I'm not sure whether the point five was 42 or 40. The point five was 1254. The point - Well, let me stop you there. There was -- from work that Monsanto sponsored in the 1950's, there was a different safe level Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030299 90 1 2 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 8 9 10 11 12 Q. 13 14 15 16 17 18 A. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 established for Aroclor 1254 versus Aroclor 1242? Yes . All right. Was that called a maximum allowable concentration at the time? I presume it was. I don't know whether the -- whether that industrial hygienist changed the phraseology from "maximum allowable concentration" to "threshold limit value." But regardless of the semantics, it was a safe level . You ask in the second paragraph to Dr. Meigs: "Could you tell me which Aroclor was used?" And then you go on in that paragraph to ask about whether certain other substances were used at that plant. Why did you ask Dr. Meigs those questions? Because I was looking for a reason for the chloracne. I could not believe that the chloracne would occur at levels of one tenth of a milligram per cubic meter of air. If the chloracne were due to pentachlorophenol -- pentachlor -- I mean, the chlorinated diphenyl -- biphenyl, it doesn't have an exclusive franchise on Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030300 1 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 Q 9 10 A . 11 12 13 Q. 14 15 16 17 A . 18 19 Q. 20 21 A 22 23 24 25 causing chloracne. There are a number of things that cause chloracne. So I asked him if there was any other thing around that could be doing it. And did Dr. Meigs respond to your letter which we've marked as Exhibit 8? Yes, he did. Would you turn to Exhibit 9 and identify that for us , please. This is a letter from Dr. Meigs dated May 7th, 1954, in which he answered my letter of April the 28th of the same year. Did Dr. Meigs respond to your inquiry about being confused about the report of chloracne at point one milligram per cubic meter of air for the chlorinated hydrocarbon? Yes. He responded by saying he was confused, too . And did he tell you anything about the air concentrations? He said the air concentrations were taken by the state health department quite some time before he wrote his paper and quite some time before the rash -- the chloracne showed up. He also suggested -- he also stated he was Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030301 92 1 2 Q. 3 A. 4 Q. 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. 9 Q. 10 A . 11 Q. 12 13 A . 14 Q. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A. 22 Q. 23 A . 24 25 not suggesting the MAC was set too high. Okay. Now, that's in the last paragraph. Right . It says "M," period, "A," period. "C , " period? Yes . And what -- MAC . And what's that? Maximum allowable concentration. That MAC is an acronym for "maximum allowable concentration"? Right. Uh-huh. Okay. Did Dr. Drinker conduct -- strike that. Still on Dr. Drinker, Dr. Kelly. We're on Dr. Meigs now. Did Dr. Meigs conduct his own samples of the air at the time he was working with the people at this plant in Connecticut who developed chloracne? No, he did not. All right. He also stated in this letter -- I think it was pretty important. He said: "My conclusion is that chlorinated hydrocarbons Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030302 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 93 should be ultimately judged as safe or hazardous in relation to observations of the workers themselves," which is really what I told him. I said, "We've watched our workers, and we don't have any problem." All right. There is a reference to the state health department survey people at the end of the first paragraph. Yes, sir. And there is a reference to -- well, the sentence says: "None of us here (including the State Health Department Survey people) have any good answer to why the air samples were so low." And the next sentence says: "We assume that somehow other conditions may have existed for a few weeks or months prior to the recognition of chloracne," closed quote. Now, when you read that, what was your understanding thereafter about this cause of the chloracne problem in Connecticut? Well, my understanding was that they did not get the chloracne from exposures of one tenth of a milligram of Aroclor -- of chlorinated Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030303 94 1 biphenyl per cubic meter of air. Regardless 2 of anything else, whatever their -- their 3 figures were wrong or the exposure was not -- 4 the figures were not indicative of the 5 exposure that these people had when they got 6 the chloracne. 7 Q. Well, was your concern and confusion after 8 reading the article lessened by receiving the 9 letter from Dr. Meigs? 10 A. Well, no. I was just -- I welcomed him to 11 the club. He was confused, also. 12 Q. Did Dr. Meigs -- was Dr. Meigs able to 13 respond to your inquiry from Exhibit 8 about 14 which Aroclor was used? 15 A. No, he was not. He said it was a combination 16 of high boiling chlorinated hydrocarbons. So 17 it was a little confusing to me. A 18 combination? Does that mean he mixed several 19 together? Did he mix chlorinated diphenyl 20 benzene along with these other things? I 21 don't know. I don't know what they tested, 22 what they had in that -- in that heat 23 transfer medium. 24 Q. Was there another common name within Monsanto 25 for chlorinated diphenyl benzene at this Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030304 95 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 5 A, 6 7 Q. 8 9 A. 10 11 Q. 12 A. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. 21 22 23 24 25 time ? Chlor -- yes. 5460. Well, separate and apart from the trade name, a reference to -- Chlorinated terphenyl. What was the question? Do you recognize the name "chlorinated diphenyl high boiler"? Oh. No. I don't know -- we didn't use that. I don't know what that was. . Okay. I don't know what he -- and I don't know what he was saying as a combination. I thought the heat transfer -- the material we sold for heat transfer -- remember, I get back, this is not electrical. This is heat transfer. I don't think we sold a combination of PCBs for this. We certainly didn't sell a chlorinated diphenyl benzene for it, either. I understand that. That wasn't my question. Dr. Kelly. Was there -- was there -- was there a substance at Monsanto that you sometimes called -- rather than its trade name, you sometimes called it "chlorinated diphenyl Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030305 96 1 high boiler"? 2 A. I don't recall Monsanto using that particular 3 term. 4 Q. All right. . 5 MR. BAUER: Take a short break? 6 MR. KIM: Sure. 7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 8 the record. It's ten minutes after 11:00 9 o'clock. This is the end of Tape No. 1. 10 11 (A recess was taken.) 12 13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: It's 26 minutes 14 after 11:00 o'clock. This is the beginning 15 of Tape No. 2. We're back on the record. 16 Q. (By Mr. Bauer) Dr. Kelly, in your answers 17 about the correspondence that you had with 18 Dr. Meigs, you talked about the maximum 19 allowable concentration for chlorinated 2 0 diphenyl and that his report of chloracne was 2 1 from an exposure that was lower than the 22 maximum allowable concentration. 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Do you recall who set maximum allowable 25 concentrations? Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030306 97 1 A. Yes. It all depends on the year you're 2 talking about. The first group that set the 3 maximum allowable concentrations was the 4 American Conference of Governmental 5 Industrial Hygienists. That was a group of 6 industrial hygienists who worked either for 7 city, county, state, or U.S. Government. It 8 did not include anybody from industry, and it 9 did not include anybody from academia. Then 10 after when OSHA came along, they set the 11 concentrations; but they used -- in the vast 12 majority of cases, the OSHA people used the 13 ACGIH figures. 14 Q. Now, what was -- what was the maximum 15 allowable concentration in terms of -- I 16 mean, what did it mean to have something set 17 at a maximum allowable concentration? 18 A. It meant that you should keep your levels 19 under that, the working levels under that, 20 that they believe that if you stay under that 2 1 maximum allowable concentration, no harm will 22 exist even if you worked there eight hours a 2 3 day for 40 years. 24 Q. And was the initial maximum allowable 25 concentration for chlorinated diphenyl Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030307 98 1 2 A. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 A . 11 Q. 12 13 A . 14 Q. 15 A . 16 Q. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 milligram per cubic meter of air? Yes. It was the one that was -- the official one, Joe Treon, who did the work, he believed that it could be two. But the Government people were -- the Government hygienists were a little more conservative. He said it should be -- they should be one for 1242 and point five for 1254. Was that Dr. Treon at Kettering Laboratory? Yes, it was. And do you -- would you recall whether that was later in 1956? '54, I thought. 1954 is when he did his work? Yes . Was it significant to you that Dr. Meigs stated in his letter to you, which has been marked Exhibit 9, that he's not suggesting that the maximum allowable for concentra -- strike that. Was it significant to you that Dr. Meigs wrote in Exhibit 9 that he was not suggesting that the maximum allowable concentration for Aroclor had been set too high? Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030308 99 1 A. Well, it wasn't too significant. He just 2 made -- just meant -- he was really not an 3 expert in this field. Even though you write 4 a paper doesn't make you an expert. So he 5 was just joining the forces with everybody, 6 all the industrial hygienists who had worked 7 in -- who had supervised the workers in the 8 field. He -- so I was glad that he was 9 agreeing with the rest of the Country. In 10 spite of his paper that said he got chloracne 11 at point one, it seemed to me that he didn't 12 believe it himself. 13 Q. I'd like to turn now to the topic. Dr. Kelly, 14 of toxicological testing sponsored by 15 Monsanto. 16 You've already testified to some 17 extent about Monsanto's role in Dr. Drinker's 18 work, funding in part for Dr. Drinker's 19 work. Did Monsanto continue to sponsor 20 toxicological testing after the 1930's? 2 1 A. Yes. They continued up until the time I 22 retired and are still doing it. 23 Q. With respect to chlorinated diphenyl or what 24 we call today "PCBs," did those tests 25 include -- did the work that Monsanto Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030309 100 1 2 A. 3 Q. 4 A. 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q, 11 12 13 A 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 sponsored include animal studies? Yes . Did Monsanto perform those tests in-house? No. Up till 1974 we did not have a laboratory inside. We made preparations for building a laboratory around the time I was retiring, and I think that came to fulfillment in 1975 or '76. But I don't know if they did any work on PCBs at that time. All right. Do you recall the names of some of the outside laboratories that Monsanto retained over the years? Yes. We -- there were two laboratories in St. Louis, which are relatively small laboratories which we used for acute studies. Acute is roughly one shot of the material. That was the Younger Laboratories, Y-o-u-n-g-e-r, and Scientific Associates, both in St. Louis. We used the Kettering Laboratory at the university of -- K-e-t-t-e-r-i-n-g - Laboratory of the University of Cincinnati for inhalation studies in 1954. We used the Industrial Bio-Test Laboratories of Northbrook, Chicago, for dermal testing and Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030310 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 101 feeding testing, quite an extensive array of tests that started in 1968. In your view, during the decades when you were Monsanto's medical director, was it possible to extrapolate directly from the results of those animal studies to human beings ? No, it was not. But the -- it's the only way you can test it. In this Country you're not supposed to test on people. And so did you rely on the results of animal testing? Notwithstanding what you just said, did you rely on the results of animal testing in part in exercising your judgment as to the relative toxicity of various Monsanto compounds ? Oh, certainly. You have really three points that you make a judgment on. One is the inherent toxicity of the product itself. You get that from animal testing. Two, you make a judgment from the exposure. One sort of exposure, is this going to be an open centrifuges. Is this going to be a plasticizer where it's dropped onto a hot rolling mill. Or three, what -- and most Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030311 102 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. important in my point of view -- from my point of view, what is the clinical record of the workers that have been exposed to this product during its manufacture or use. In fact, that's what Meigs said. He said it should be judged safe or hazardous by relation to observation of the workers themselves . So you got really a three -- a three-legged stool, that you have to make a judgment call using all three of those items. With respect to testing, in an answer a minute ago, you mentioned "acute testing." Would you elaborate on that for us, please, what you mean by "acute testing." Well, it's a testing to show what would happen if you have a one-shot dose of the material, either one or over a short period of time, several days. We would have a package where we dropped the material in the ice to see what happened to the ice. We put it on the skin sometimes for 24, 48 hours, sometime repeatedly over two or three days; but that Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030312 103 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 was a small time frame of testing to see whether it was absorbed through the skin or what it did to the skin. Third, we tried to get a saturated atmosphere of the material to see how rats handled six- or eight-hour exposure, one exposure. Then we fed it to find out what was called first the minimum "lethal dose," later changed it to the Lethal Dose 50, or LD^^, to give a benchmark of the rough toxicity from an acute, which means a short exposure. Q. All right. Now, Lethal Dose 50, or LD5q, what did that mean when a substance was given an LD50? A. It means that you take a batch of rats, usually 20 or 50, and see what dose kills half of them. Q. And was that a commonly accepted -- strike that. Was that a commonly used method of determining a relative toxicity of compounds in the chemical industry in the 1950's? A. Yes. As far as the rats were concerned. Q. Okay. A. I mean, when you use it on a rat, that Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030313 104 1 doesn't mean it would have the same toxicity 2 effect on a dog or a -- but it was a common 3 benchmark to get a relative toxicity index of 4 the product. 5 Q- Did Monsanto conduct studies in the 1950's to 6 get a LD,_g, or Lethal Dose 50, for various 7 PCB products? 8 A. Yes. Not only the Fifties. I think almost 9 up to the time we -- I retired. 10 Q. 11 Would you turn, please, to Exhibit 10, which is dated November 10, 1953. And it's a 12 certificate of analysis from Scientific 13 Associates. Can you identify that for us, 14 please? 15 A . Yes. That's -- "Subject: The Acute Oral 16 Toxicity of Aroclor 1254 for Rats." 17 Q. 18 All right. Is this a report of work sponsored by Monsanto? 19 A . Yes . 20 Q. 21 Who at Monsanto made the decision to request this study? ' 22 A. Ultimately I did. Whether or not -- '53, 23 yes, I did it. 24 Q. 25 Did you receive and review a copy of Exhibit 10 in 1953? Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030314 105 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Were similar LD^g tests performed by 3 Scientific Associates for other Aroclor 4 products ? 5 A. Yes . 6 Q. Is -- well, strike that. 7 Can you identify Exhibit'll, 8 please? 9 A. That's by the same organization on 1242 for 10 rats, dated the same day, I think, 11 December, '53. The same year, at any rate. 12 Yes. The same year. 13 Q. Did the results of the LDr. work in the 50 14 1950's performed by Scientific Associates - 15 of which we've seen two examples now. 16 Exhibit 10 and Exhibit 11. Did the results 17 of those tests change your opinion about the 18 relative toxicity of PCBs? 19 A. No. I always thought the PCBs, as far as an 20 industrial chemical was concerned, was a mild 21 to moderate toxicity. And that certainly 22 falls in that range of four to four point 23 three milliliters per kilogram. 24 Q. And you're now referring to the "Discussion" 25 section of Exhibit 11? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030315 106 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Would you turn next to Exhibit 12, please, 3 and identify that for us? 4 A. Yes. This is a report from the Kettering 5 Laboratory of the University of Cincinnati. 6 The principal author is a Dr. Treon, 7 T-r-e-o-n, on "The Toxicity of the Vapor of 8 Aroclors 1242 and 1254." 9 Q. And what's the date? 10 A. June the 22nd, 1955. 11 Q. And would you tell us what Exhibit 13 is? 12 A. Beg pardon? 13 Q. Exhibit 13. 14 A. That's the toxicity of 1254 by the same 15 author and the same organization. 16 Q. And what's the date of the second report? 17 A. June the 28th, 1955. 18 Q. All right. Now, what company requested that 19 Dr. Treon of Kettering Laboratory undertake 20 tests of the toxicity of the vapor of 2 1 Aroclors 1242 and 1254 in 1950's -- in the 22 1950 ' s? 23 A. Monsanto Company. 24 Q. All right. Who at Monsanto made that 25 request? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030316 107 1 A. 2 Q. 3 A. 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 11 12 13 A. 14 Q. 15 16 17 A. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I did. What was Kettering's reputation at the time? Well, it was top drawer. It was excellent. It was a university. It was -- the head of it was Dr. Keel, who had spent his life investigating the toxicology of lead. And it was an extremely well-recommended organization. All right. What type of tests did Dr. Treon and his co-workers perform in terms of ingestion versus skin contact versus inhalation? Repeated inhalation studies. Why did you ask Dr. Treon to do repeated inhalation studies on twelve -- Aroclor 1242 and Aroclor 1254 in the 1950's? Because these materials were beginning to be used in applications where elevated temperatures were used, such as the hydraulic fluids in the die-cast industry and there would be a possibility of repeated levels - repeated exposures to the material at elevated temperatures. At room temperatures we didn't -- weren't worried at all. You can have a bucketful of Aroclor sitting in this Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030317 108 1 room here with no lid on it, it wouldn't 2 bother anybody. But if you heated it up, 3 you've got enough of it in the air, at some 4 time it would be harmful. We wanted to see 5 what a safe level was. 6 Q. Did you have -- did you understand in the 7 1950's that if Aroclors were heated and 8 openly exposed to the air, one might 9 eventually exceed the maximum allowable 10 concentration? 11 A . Oh, certainly. Q.12 Just to make sure we're clear about what 13 we're talking about, the toxicity of the 14 vapor of Aroclors 1242 and 1254 is what the 15 report is about. Is Aroclor 1242 a 16 chlorinated biphenyl product? 17 A . 18 Q. 19 Yes , it is. And is Aroclor 1254 a chlorinated biphenyl product ? 20 A . Yes, it is. 2 1 Q. And the "42" in the 1242 means what? 22 A. The chlorinated concentration. The biphenyls 23 chlorinated to average concentration of 42 24 percent. Q.25 Okay. Were those two specific Aroclors being Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030318 109 1 used for some of these new uses that you were 2 describing earlier? 3 A. Yes, they were. 4 Q. Do you recall what types of animals Dr. Treon 5 performed his work on? 6 A. He did a sort of a mixed bag of animals. He 7 did rabbits, rats, mice. He did about five 8 cats. He did a cat in there. He did quite a 9 f ew. 10 Q. So there were tests on two PCB products on a 11 number of different species? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. Do you recall the length of time of the study 14 that is set forth in the initial report? 15 A. The initial report, he did two studies. One 16 was with a fairly high concentration for 17 something like -- I'm not sure -- 120 days or 18 something. Maybe less than 120 days. Then 19 he did another series of experiments with a 20 higher -- with a smaller concentration for a 2 1 150 days, which is close to five and a 22 half -- five months. 23 Q. All right. 24 A. That was pretty long for the 1950's. In 25 fact, it's long for any inhalation study even Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030319 110 1 today. 2 Q. Do you recall whether the two reports relate 3 to the two different lengths of times of the 4 studies ? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And the first report was for which, the 7 report that we've marked Exhibit 12, from 8 June 22 of 1955? 9 A. The first one was the lower level -- I mean, 10 the higher levels. 11 Q. For the shorter periods of time? 12 A. Yes. Correct. 13 Q. Were your previous conclusions about the 14 toxicity and safe handling of PCBs changed by 15 the results of the Kettering Laboratory tests 16 that were reported in Exhibit 12 and 17 Exhibit 13? 18 A. No. We had proved two things: One, if you 19 get too much of it, you can get problems. 20 No. 2, which is the more important thing, 2 1 there are safe levels that you don't get any 22 problems with. So they bolstered our 23 clinical thinking along this line. 24 Q. What kind of problems were reported in the 25 animals that the exposure was too high? Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030320 111 1 A. There was some pulmonary irritation; but I 2 think, as I recall, the animals developed 3 some systemic effects on the liver when the 4 level was too high. 5 Q. Was -- the liver being the organ that would 6 be of concern if the exposure to chlorinated 7 diphenyl was too high, was that conclusion by 8 Dr. Treon a surprise to you in the 1950's? 9 A. No. Because getting back to Drinker, he 10 found that the liver was a target organ 11 anyway. 12 Q. After -- well, let me ask you this: Did you 13 receive and review both Exhibit 12 and 14 Exhibit 13? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. After you received and reviewed those two 17 documents, were you of the opinion that 18 chlorinated diphenyl could be used in 19 transformers and capacitors safely so long as 20 certain precautions were taken? 2 1 A. That's correct. 22 Q. And generally what were the precautions that 23 would be required? 24 A. Avoid breathing in elevated temperatures or 25 in confined spaces. Avoid repeated or Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030321 112 1 continuous skin contact. 2 Q. Did Dr. Treon publish the results of his 3 tests in a scientific journal? 4 A. Yes, he did. 5 Q. Is Exhibit 14 a copy of his publication? 6 A. Yes, it is. 7 Q. It's identified as a publication from 1956 in 8 Industrial Hygiene Quarterly. Did Monsanto 9 subscribe to Industrial Hygiene Quarterly in 10 1956? 11 A. Yes, it did. 12 Q. Was Industrial Hygiene Quarterly a widely 13 read periodical in the occupational medicine 14 and industrial hygiene field? 15 A. I don't know how many occupational physicians 16 read it, but certainly every industrial 17 hygienist in the United States read it. And 18 anybody who had an industrial hygiene group, 19 if a physician was their supervisor, he read 20 it, also. 21 Q. Did you read Exhibit 14 in the 1950's? 22 A . Did I read it? 23 Q. Yes . 24 A. Yes. As soon as it came out. 25 Q. Were the conclusions in the published article Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030322 113 1 2 3 4 5 A. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. 16 17 18 19 A. 20 21 22 23 24 25 by Dr. Treon the same as the conclusions from his -- from the fuller reports we've marked as Exhibit 12 and Exhibit 13 that you've already described? To the best of my recollection, yes. Yes. In fact. I'll read his conclusions. "Prolonged intermittent exposure of animals to vapors of Aroclor 1242 1.0 to 8.6 micrograms per liter" -- that's parts per million -- "demonstrated no injury. Prolonged exposure to comparable concentrations of 1254 resulted in reversible degenerative changes of certain viscera." That's the liver. Did Dr. Treon suggest that the prior maximum allowable concentration for Aroclor 1242 set by the American Counsel of Governmental Hygienist -- Hygienists could be made higher? There wasn't any prior -- until this work, there was no prior maximum allowable concentration -- or TLV, whichever they used -- because they didn't have any information on prolonged vapor inhalation. So he sent all his work, his reports in to the American Government Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030323 114 1 Industrial Hygienists; and he said, "I think 2 we can use one point zero for 1254 and two 3 point zero for 1244." They looked it all 4 over and said, "Well, we're going to be a 5 little more conservative than you. We're 6 going to use" -- "cut these levels in half." 7 And which is sort of par for a regulatory 8 body. 9 Q. All right. Who -- 10 A. Even though they were not regulatory. They 11 didn't have the force of law, but it was - 12 in essence, it did. 13 Q. 14 Who was it that concluded that they were going to set the maximum allowable 15 concentration at one half the level suggested 16 by Dr. Treon? 17 A. The American Government Industrial 18 Hygienists. And that eventually was picked 19 up by OSHA, but OSHA didn't commit until 20 considerably after that. 21 THE WITNESS: You know "OSHA" is 22 all caps? 23 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes. Yes. 24 Q. (By Mr. Bauer) Would you identify Exhibit 15 25 for us, please, Dr. Kelly? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030324 115 1 A. Yes. This is a acute study, "Toxicological 2 Investigation of Inerteen PPO," by Younger 3 Laboratories, March the 4th, 1963. 4 Q. And who requested that Younger Laboratories 5 do this toxicological investigation? 6 A. Either myself -- the medical department. I 7 don't know if it was I or if I was the one or 8 Wheeler was. 9 Q. Was it the medical department - 10 A. It was the medical department -- 11 Q. -- of Monsanto Company? 12 A. -- the medical department at Monsanto, 13 right. 14 Q. And would you identify Exhibit 16, please? 15 A. 16 is the same type of work, done by the same 16 laboratory, with the same date, on Pyranol 17 1470 . 18 Q. The experimental procedures identified in 19 Exhibit 15 and Exhibit 16 are "Oral LD5q,, and 20 "Skin Absorption MLD," "Skin Irritation," 2 1 "Eye Irritation," and "Vapor Inhalation"? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Were those all acute toxicity tests? 24 A. Yes, they all were. That was in that package 25 that I referred to earlier. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030325 116 1 Q. 2 3 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 10 11 12 A. 13 Q. 14 15 A. 16 Q. 17 A. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 All right. Did the -- strike that. At this time in March of 1963, was Younger Laboratories also doing similar acute toxicity studies on other PCB products than the ones we've identified here? Yes. Did the results of those acute toxicity tests in the 1960's done by Younger Laboratories change your earlier conclusion about the ability to use PCBs safely in electrical fluid? Well, it reinforced my thinking. Would you turn next to what is marked Exhibit 17, please? Yes. Would you identify that? This is a report to the Monsanto Chemical Company entitled, "Subacute Dermal Toxicity of Aroclor 1254," by the Industrial Bio-Test Laboratories in Northbrook, Chicago. I must make a statement here that they call "subacute." I don't know how you could have anything shorter than short time, which is what "acute" is. So the term they finally got around to using was subchronic. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030326 117 1 Q. 2 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 9 10 A . 11 Q. 12 13 A . 14 Q. 15 16 A . 17 Q. 18 A . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 All right. At some date after this paper was written, it was common in industry to refer to this length of time period as a subchronic study? Yes . All right. Who -- well, strike that. Let me ask this first. Well, did Monsanto Chemical Company sponsor these studies? Yes, they did. It did. Did the medical department request that Industrial Bio-Test do these tests? Yes, it did. Who selected Industrial Bio-Test as the outside contractor? I did . Why did you select Industrial Bio-Test? Well, we had used them before. Almost from their inception, we were one of their earliest clients. We knew they were held in quite high regard. The Army used them. The FDA used it. The large chemical companies, even those that had their own toxicological laboratories like Dow and DuPont, used it. So it was recognized as the premier Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030327 118 1 commercial toxicological laboratory in the 2 United States. 3 Q. Did you receive and review Exhibit 17 in 4 1963? 5 A. Yes, I did. 6 Q. Did Monsanto perform other subacute dermal 7 toxicity testings on other Aroclor 8 products -- strike that. 9 Did Industrial Bio-Test do similar 10 work on other Aroclor products at the time? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. This one is Aroclor 1254. 13 A. In 1963?. 14 Q. (Nods head.) 15 A. I don't know if they did right at that time; 16 but subsequent to it, I think around that 17 time, they did it. But I don't recall. 18 Q. All right. Did the results of the studies 19 done by Industrial Bio-Test in the early 20 1960's on the toxicity of Aroclor products 2 1 alter your opinion about the ability to use 22 PCBs safely in transformers and capacitors? 23 A. No, it did not. I still believed they are 24 saf e . 25 Q. Was there any information in any of the Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030328 119 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. reports that we've reviewed here today or in any of the other reports that you received at the same time on other PCB products that made you question in any way whether chlorinated diphenyl could be used safely if the precautions you've talked about earlier were used? No. And I think that was backed up by the fact that 40 years that we were making the material, we didn't have any -- we had very minor episodes of acute exposure from nonindus -- nonelectrical uses. But surprisingly few, judging by the tonnage that we manufactured. Now, let's turn to the topic of toxicity and safe handling information distributed to customers. All right? , All right. Would you identify Exhibit 18 for us, please? Yes . Could you identify it for us, please? It's a memorandum of L. A. Watt, W-a-t-t, to somebody. I don't know to whom because there's no -- it doesn't show who it went to. Dated October the 11th, 1937, in which Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030329 120 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q. 10 11 A. 12 Q. 13 14 15 A. 16 Q. 17 18 19 20 21 22 A , 23 24 25 he talks about what the experimental work in animals showed and what can happen if we - if you got too much of it on your skin. And also, the statement of -- that adequate ventilation should be taken care of -- should take care of any problems. And he mentioned that he and I discussed this, and we agreed that this is the way we ought to write it up. Is the language in Exhibit 18 language that you approved in 1937? Yes . In terms of information to customers about toxicity and safe handling of chlorinated diphenyl? Yes . To put this in perspective in time a little bit, is this the time period when you were - you didn't have the title of medical director but -- did not have the title of medical director but were performing some of those functions ? I think so. Probably it was the beginning of it. Around '37 and '38 I was really more involved in it; but '37, I was just getting started in it. At least they knew I was Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030330 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 1 there, and they came in to see me. Watt was in what would be called the technical services department of the organic division, or what division manufactured Aroclors at that time. You described earlier that there were different kinds of ways to disseminate information to customers, to get out information about the toxic properties of a Monsanto product to customers; and you talked about labels and bulletins and direct contact. Did you, as medical director of Monsanto, have a philosophy about what type of information would go on the labels as opposed to the other types of methods? Yes . What was that? Well, remember first of all, on the label you are generally targeting the information to a group who are not scientific in training or wage roll employees who are not supposed to be chemists or scientists. And you put on information that you want them to read, and you put on information that will protect them. And my philosophy was, and always has Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030331 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 122 been, that if you can get the material in a crisp, succinct form -- s-u-c-c-i-n - MR. FEATHERSTONE: -- c-t. -- c-t -- that - (By Mr. Bauer) She'll get the words down. Dr. Kelly. You don't have to try to spell too many of them. Well, I couldn't even pronounce that for a while. That if you've got adequate information, the less you put on, the better. Nobody is going to read a label that stretches around the entire circumference of a 55-gallon drum. But if you put on there, "Don't get it on your skin in repeated doses or in large amounts. Don't breathe it in elevated temperatures. Don't breathe it in confined spaces," you've got information there that would protect the worker. And anybody who sees the label and reads it, he'll remember that. Do you recall anything about the role of a committee formed by the surgeon general in the 1930's concerning the specific language put on warning labels for chlorinated Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030332 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 3 naphthalene and chlorinated diphenyl? I don't know too much about it. I don't recall too much. I was not on that committee. We had a labeling expert in St. Louis. I mean a labeling director, who directed himself, I think. I don't know how large a group he had. First it was a Robert Mentier, then it was a Robert Sido, S-i-d-o. And the surgeon general had for some time this committee that would approve warning or cautionary material, safe handling data on various compounds, including chlorinated biphenyls. And they had approved the type of warning that we had on there. ' Later that group was suspended; and the duties were taken over by a committee of the Manufacturing Chemists Association, LAPI, L-A-P-I, Label and Protective Information, I guess, Committee. I wasn't on that one, either; but the director was -- of the labeling department was on that. The director of Monsanto's labeling department? Of Monsanto's labeling department. All right. Would you turn next to what's Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030333 124 1 been marked as Exhibit 19? 2 A. Oh, I got to get a new book. 3 Q. Fair enough. 4 A. Yes. I'm all set. 5 Q. Can you identify that for us, please? 6 A. Yes. It's a label for Aroclor 1260 by the 7 Monsanto Company. 8 Q. Can you tell us the, approximately, time 9 frame when this type of label with that kind 10 of information on it was used by Monsanto? 11 A. I can't tell the earliest time. I've seen 12 these labels on drums, but I think it was 13 . sometime -- gosh, the Forties or Fifties. I 14 don't know how -- the earliest date, I just 15 can't tell you that. 16 Q. All right. Now, the language of this label, 17 "Caution: Avoid prolonged and repeated 18 contact with skin. Avoid prolonged breathing 19 of vapor and dust," was that language that 20 you approved for this label? 21 A. Yes. I wrote it. 22 Q. The next exhibit is marked Exhibit 20, and 23 it's a different label for Transformer 24 Pyrano1. 25 A. Yes. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030334 125 Can -- and this has some additional 2 statements in terms of precautionary 3 information. Can you tell us approximately 4 when that was added? 5A 6 I think this was added sometime in the Fifties, I believe, to the best of my 7 recollection. 8 Q. The two statements about if skin contact 9 occurs ? 10 A . It's removed by washing. "If clothing 11 becomes soaked, launder before wearing 12 again." I think we put that on then. 13 Q. 14 A . In the 1950's? I think so. 15 Q. All right. Whenever the exact date is, was 16 that also language that you approved - 17 A . Yes . 18 Q. -- to be added to the label? 19 A. Yes. I wrote it. 20 Q. Would you turn next to Exhibit 21 and 2 1 identify that for us, please. 22 A . That's the same type of label that Monsanto 23 put on Inerteen PPO, which was made for 24 General Electric -- or Westinghouse. It was 2 5 a trademark compound of Western Electric - Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030335 126 1 2 Q. 3 A. 4 5 Q. 6 7 8 A. 9 10 Q. 11 12 13 14 A. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Westinghouse Electric. All right. Now - It also had -- it also has an environmental statement on this. All right. Can you give us the approximate date that that environmental warning label language was added? '69, '70, something around that. Probably '70. All right. Was there someone in addition to yourself who was involved in the evaluation of the appropriate precautionary language with respect to the environmental label? Yes. William Papageorge, who was appointed as the environmental point man, I guess -- I don't know the exact term -- for environmental products of the organic division. I don't know the -- whether that was called Monsanto Chemical Company at that time, a subsidiary of Monsanto Company, I don't know. Or a division of Monsanto Company. But anyway, he was the guy. Papageorge was also involved. All the medical department, especially Wheeler, had a Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030336 127 1 lot of input in it. And I knew this was 2 going on the label, and I approved it from 3 the medical department view. 4 Q. So the - 5 A. The medical department point of view. 6 Q. The addition of the environmental warning 7 label, was that a - 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. 10 -- was that -- deciding that language, was that a joint responsibility? 11 A. I guess it was. 12 Q. Now, let's back up to Exhibit 20. That's a 13 label that deals specifically with 14 Transformer Pyranol. At the time that that 15 particular warning language was being used, 16 which you've identified as approximately 17 sometime in the 1950's, was the same language 18 also used on Inerteen? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, Pyranol was the product that was blended 2 1 for whom? 22 A. General Electric. 23 Q. All right. And did it contain PCBs? 24 A. Yes . 25 Q. And Inerteen was manufactured for whom? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030337 128 1 A. Westinghouse Electric. 2 Q. And did it contain PCBs? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. All right. Was the same warning language 5 used during this period of time also on drums 6 of Aroclor? 7 A. Was the same what? 8 Q. This precautionary language here -- 9 A. Oh, yes. The precautionary language was. 10 Q. All right. And that was -- Aroclor was whose 11 trade name for PCBs products? 12 A. Monsanto. 13 Q. All right. 14 MR. FEATHERSTONE: Scott, why don't 15 you take a break here for a second. 16 MR. BAUER: All right. 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off 18 the record at six minutes after 12:00 19 o'clock. 20 2 1 (A recess was taken.) 22 23 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: It's eight 24 minutes after 12:00 o'clock. We're back on 25 the record. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030338 12 9 (By Mr. Bauer) Dr. Kelly, did you, as 2 Monsanto's medical director, also approve 3 precautionary language that was put into 4 product bulletins? 5 A. Yes . Q.6 Would you identify Exhibit 22, please. 7 A. It's a bulletin of the Monsanto Chemical 8 Company entitled, "The Proper Handling of 9 Aroclors and Their Mixtures in the Electrical 10 Industry." Q.11 Chapter 9 -- excuse me. Chapter 12, which is 12 on Pages 98 to 100, is entitled, "Dermatology 13 and Toxicology." Did the medical department 14 approve the language of that particular 15 chapter of this bulletin? 16 A . Up to what page? 17 Q. 98 . 18 A . Yes, we approved it. Q-19 Who was responsible -- this -- the document 20 that you call -- you say was entitled, 2 1 "Proper Handling of Aroclors and Their 22 Mixtures in the Electrical Industry," has the 23 name P. G. Benignus on it. 24 A . That's right. Q.25 Who is that? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030339 130 1 A. He is a retired Monsanto employee who was 2 involved in the electrical use of PCBs for a 3 number of years until his retirement. I 4 think he started in that field in the Forties 5 or Fifties. I don't know what he was -- he 6 retired after I did. 7 Q. You're saying he's retired now? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. All right. 10 A. Retired after I did. 11 Q. And was he involved in marketing of PCB 12 products ? 13 A. I guess it was marketing, whether it was 14 development and marketing or marketing 15 alone. I think it was both, though. 16 Q. Which department -- well, strike that. 17 Let me ask this: Was the medical 18 department or Mr. Benignus' department 19 actually responsible for sending this out to 20 people, the document that we've marked 2 1 Exhibit 22? 22 A. Well, certainly the medical department was 23 not . 24 Q. Okay. Would you turn next to what's been 25 marked Exhibit 23? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030340 13 1 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Can you identify that for us, please? 3 A. This is a Monsanto bulletin in which -- the 4 inspection and maintenance guide of Monsanto, 5 askarel, a-s-k-a-r-e-1. 6 Q. And here's yet another name - 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. -- that we haven't used today? 9 A. 10 11 12 That's a generic name for a relatively noninflammable compound dielectric for electrical use in capacitors and trans formers. 13 Q. Okay. Was askarel a generic name that 14 sometimes people used for fluids that 15 contained PCBs? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. There is a discussion of handling directions 18 on the bottom of Page 4 and the top of 19 Page 5. Would you review that language, 20 please? 2 1 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did the medical department approve that 23 language for this bulletin? 24 A. Yes, we did. 25 Q. Was this also a bulletin that was Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030341 132 1 disseminated by some department of Monsanto, 2 sent out to customers or whoever by some 3 department other than the medical department? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. Is this -- you talked earlier about 6 development bulletins and product bulletins. 7 Where does this bulletin fall in in that -- 8 those descriptions? 9 A. 10 11 12 Well, this -- this even later, it says development is trying to offer it for sale to people. The sales bulletin is just what the name implies, where we're trying to get the 13 people to use it. And this after they use 14 it, we tell them how to use it as far as the 15 maintenance of the -- of the apparatus is 16 concerned. 17 Q. All right. 18 A. Where it talks about leaks and cleanup spills 19 and stuff like that. 20 Q. All right. 2 1 A. That is what happens down the road when 22 you're using the product. 23 Q. All right. Now, you testified earlier that 24 the medical department also was involved in 25 direct communications with customers about Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030342 133 1 Monsanto products. Was that true of PCBs? 2 A. Yes. Now, remember, when you say "direct 3 communi" -- if they called us or wrote us. I 4 didn't write out de novo to a customer. They 5 had to write in or call in. Anyplace in the 6 company, if they asked about safety or safe 7 handling information or toxicity, that phone 8 call or letter was referred to the central 9 medical department. It was answered by 10 somebody in the medical department. 11 Q. Were you one of the people that answered some 12 of those inquiries? 13 A . Oh, yes. For a long time I was the only one; 14 but then after we got a couple more doctors 15 and industrial hygienists, they did some of 16 the answering. 17 Q. Did -- do you recall whether some of the 18 correspondence that you personally were 19 involved in dealt with chlorinated diphenyl 20 or PCBs? 21 A. Yes . 22 Q. 23 Would you turn to Exhibit 24, please, and identify that for us? 24 A . Yes. This is a letter from me -- from me 25 to -- signed by me to J. C. Sullivan of the Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030343 134 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 10 11 A . 12 Q. 13 14 15 A . 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q 23 24 25 Linck, L-i-n-c-k, Company, March the 8th, 1961. But it seems it's an answer to an inquiry or a request from one of our salespeople, Howard Bergen, who received a request for oral toxicity information on Aroclor products. All right. Is this exhibit. Exhibit 24, the file copy of a letter that you, in fact, signed and sent out on or about March 8th of 196 1? Yes, it is . Is this letter a typical example of a response that you would write to an inquiry about chlorinated diphenyl specifically? Yes. I answered his question. I mean, he asked just for the oral toxicity of it; and I gave him the oral toxicity and told him how to avoid exposure to the product. If somebody had asked specifically about, "How should I use this?" it might have been a different type of letter. All right. Is there anything in this letter. Exhibit 24, that you sent to Mr. Sullivan of the Linck Company that you somehow or for some reason would not want to share with Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030344 135 1 other Monsanto customers? 2 A . No . 3 Q. You tell Mr. Sullivan that the maximum 4 allowable concentration set by the American 5 Counsel of Governmental Industrial Hygienists 6 was 1 milligram per cubic meter for 7 Aroclor 1242 and point five milligrams per 8 cubic meter for Aroclor 1254. 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. Is that your recollection of the differences 11 in what was the recommended safe level for 12 those two products at the time? 13 A. Yes. That was what the Government Industrial 14 Hygiene Conference set. They said according 15 to them, they think Aroclor 1254 is more 16 toxic than Aroclor 1242. So they picked 17 point five and wanted one or the other. 18 That's not really a very high concentration 19 if you look over the list of things that they 20 have and that they set for various industrial 2 1 products. 22 Q. All right. 23 A. It falls into a mild to moderate industrial 24 toxic product. 25 Q. Was there a specific maximum allowable Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030345 136 1 concentration for Aroclor 1260? 2 A . No . 3 Q. Do you recall what you told people about 4 exposure to inhalation vapors from that 5 Aroclor product? 6 A. I would say I would -- I probably told them 7 that -- in fact, I know I told them, "We 8 haven't run it on 1260; but if you run it on 9 1250, use the same level as 1254, you'll be 10 home free. You won't get any problem. It 11 will be harder to get point five milligrams 12 of 1260 because of the vapor pressure is a 13 lot less. You've got to heat it up a lot 14 higher." 15 Q. What does it mean, that "the vapor pressure 16 is a lot less"? 17 A. If the vapor pressure is a lot less, you 18 don't get anything in the air. It takes a 19 larger amount of heat to disperse the vapors 20 from the liquid material. 2 1 Q. Was Aroclor 1260 also a chlorinated diphenyl 22 product that was used in transformer fluids 23 and capacitor fluids? 24 A. I don't know about capacitors, but they -- it 25 was used in transformers. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030346 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 137 You state in this letter, as of March 8 of 1969: "I do not have chronic oral toxicity information on these products." Why was it that you didn't have chronic oral toxicity on those products at that time? Because the material was not supposed to be a additive -- food additive or either an actual or inadvertent food additive. We didn't know that it was eventually going to get into the food of the United States at that -- in 1961. So there was -- in an industrial chemical you really do not run chronic oral toxicity because you don't expect somebody to be taking a couple teaspoonsful of this every day . What was the practice in the chemical industry in the United States about getting oral chronic toxicity information on industrial chemicals that were not intended for being used in food residues, becoming a food residue because it was used in food crops or the like? Well, the current thinking was, you do enough to find out the acute hazard if a man spills Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030347 138 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. it on himself or inhales too much of it. You try to get some idea of the target organ. Of course, we had that from the Drinker work. We had -- he did chronic work back in 1938, which is still valid in 1961. But as far as running long-term testing, nobody did it. Industrial chemicals were not expected to be used in food for chronic testing -- for chronic oral testing. Chronic and -- chronic testing of ingestion or - - Yes. -- or eating it? That's right. All right. Would you turn next, please, to Exhibit No. 25 and identify that for us. That's a letter to a Mr. Speicher of industrial hygiene of the Westinghouse Electric Corporation by Mr. Wheeler, who was the assistant director of the medical department at that time. Do you recognize Mr. Wheeler's signature, "Elmer" - Yes . -- on the second page? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030348 139 1 A. Yes . 2 Q. What was the practice in the medical 3 department in 1956 about distribution of 4 correspondence such as Exhibit 25? 5 A. We had a practice; and we put a stamp on it, 6 on the carbon, and then on the file copy. 7 And the person who wrote the letter would 8 check off whether the toxicologist would get 9 it, whether I would get it, whether the 10 assistant medical director would get it. 11 So we were pretty cognizant of what 12 was going on in other people's 13 correspondence. And if they sent out 14 material on safe handling, concerning safe 15 handling data or toxicological effects, I 16 would always see that. 17 Q. All right. And did you and Mr. Wheeler have 18 conversations over the years about the type 19 of information that should go into 20 correspondence that he wrote to customers? 21 A. Oh, yes. We got on the same wavelength after 22 not too long a period. 23 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Speicher at Westinghouse 24 was someone that you knew from the industrial 25 hygiene department there? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030349 140 1 A. I didn't know him. Wheeler knew him. 2 Q. All right. And what did - 3 A. I knew where he was. I mean, I knew of him. 4 I knew he had been in some state place, I 5 thought, some state organization. But he was 6 a friend of Wheeler's, and Wheeler saw him at 7 all their meetings. 8 Q. All right. Did Mr. Wheeler talk with you 9 about anyone else in the Westinghouse 10 industrial hygiene department with whom he 11 dealt? 12 A. There's a man -- I get a little confused on 13 the name. I thought it was Brandt, 14 B-r-a-n-d-t, or Barnes or something like 15 that. That was -- he was a Ph.D., and I 16 believe he may have been -- I don't know what 17 his type relationship was as far as Speicher 18 was concerned. But I think he was the head 19 of the organization, of the industrial 20 hygiene group. They had a fair size group at 2 1 Westinghouse. 22 Q. All right. While we're on the topic of 2 3 Westinghouse's organization, did Westinghouse 24 also have a medical department? 25 A. Yes, they had one. I was never at Pittsburg, Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030350 14 1 1 but I knew their medical director. He was a 2 pioneer in industrial medicine. His name was 3 T. Lyle, L-y-l-e, Hazlett, H-a-z-1-e-t-t. 4 When I came into the industrial -- in the 5 occupational medical field, he was already in 6 there. He had been in there for quite some 7 time, and he was a well-known fellow. 8 Q. All right. Was it a common practice of 9 medical departments at companies such as 10 General Electric and Westinghouse in the 11 Thirties, Forties, and Fifties to keep 12 current with the scientific literature about 13 substances that they used? 14 A. I can't talk about GE or Westinghouse. It 15 certainly was me. And certainly from -- by 16 talking with Hazlett and Vosburgh and other 17 people of the other companies, they knew it. 18 I think it was common practice, yes; but I 19 can't be sure. 20 Q. All right. Did you have an understanding 2 1 from talking to Dr. Vosburgh of GE and 22 Dr. Hazlett of Westinghouse about whether 23 they were reading the literature about PCBs? 24 A. They knew probably more about it than I did. 25 Q. Let's go back, then, to Exhibit 25, the Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030351 142 1 letter in 1956 from Mr. Wheeler to 2 Mr. Speicher. It says that he include - 3 he's enclosing -- I'm sorry. That's not what 4 he says. 5 He says he's sending under separate 6 cover two detailed reports published by 7 personnel at the Kettering Laboratories 8 entitled, "The Toxicity of the Vapors of 9 Aroclors 1242 and 1254." Are those the two 10 exhibits that we looked at earlier today - 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- and marked? 13 A. Treon's work. Yes. 14 Q. Exhibits 12 and Exhibit 13? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Would you turn next to what's been marked as 17 Exhibit 26? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Can you identify that for us, please? 20 A. That's another letter to Dr. Speicher by - 21 Mr. Speicher by Wheeler. He wanted more 22 information. So he gave him a three-page 23 letter this time. And it was a little more 24 exhaustive. I don't know why -- why 25 Mr. Speicher was asking him again. Maybe he Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030352 143 1 2 3 Q. 4 5 6 A. 7 Q. 8 9 A. 10 Q. 11 12 13 14 15 16 A . 17 Q . 18 A . 19 Q. 20 21 22 23 A 24 25 lost the first letter or something. I don't know. But anyway - Is Exhibit 26 the unsigned file copy of a letter that was sent out to Mr. Speicher in 1959? Yes. Exhibit 26, yes. Yes. The top of Page 2, Mr. Wheeler states -- Yes . -- "...sufficient exposure, whether by inhalation of vapors or skin contact, can result in chloracne which I think we must assume could be an indication of more serious systemic injury if the exposure was allowed to continued." That's correct. Was that your view in 1959, as well? Yes . Was that information that -- was that information that was shared only with Westinghouse? I mean, was there any reason why Mr. Wheeler was - No. I think that was the general impression of everybody in the field. They thought that chloracne was the sort of hallmark of Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030353 144 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 excessive PCB -- chlorinated PCB exposure. And they thought that this was a systemic reaction on the skin rather than a local reaction, as a sunburn or an irritation from paint remover. So that we thought if you got the systemic reaction on the fat cells of the skin, you could very well get problems elsewhere in the body. And that's why we were concerned if chloracne occurred. Q. And was that information that Monsanto shared with any health professional that asked questions about the toxic properties of chlorinated diphenyl? A. Oh, yes. That was -- other people who were working in the same field had written about itortalkedaboutit. Q. All right. Now, Exhibit 25, which we talked about just a minute ago, is a letter that's about Aroclors? A. Right. Q. Again, is that Monsanto's trade name for chlorinated diphenyl or PCB products? A. Yes, it is . Q. Now, Exhibit 26 is a reference to Aroclor 1242 and a combination known as Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030354 145 1 Inerteen PPO. 2 A. Yes . 3 Q. Is this letter also about PCB products? 4 A. Yes, it is. Mixed with trichlorobenzene. 5 Q. Right. Would you identify Exhibit 27, 6 please? 7 A. Yes. This is a letter signed by me to a 8 Mr. Crow, someplace in Alaska, the U.S. Naval 9 Station in Kodiak, Alaska, who must have 10 written a letter to Monsanto and eventually 11 got to the medical department to ask for 12 information concerning fire resistant 13 transformer fluids which of the generic name 14 askarel. 15 Q. All right. Now, this letter is about 16 askarel. 17 A. Right. 18 Q. Is that -- is that also a name for fluids 19 that contain PCBs? 20 A. Yes. But all askarels are not PCB 2 1 containers. 22 Q. All right. In the terms of ones that the -- 23 the askarels that Monsanto manufactured -- 24 A. -- were all PCBs. 25 Q. All right. Is Exhibit 27 the file copy of a Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030355 146 1 letter that you, in fact, signed and sent out 2 to Mr. Crow responding to his inquiries about 3 the toxic properties and safe handling of 4 askarel? 5 A. Yes, it is. 6 Q. Did you tell Mr. Crow anything in this letter 7 that you were hiding from other companies 8 that were using PCB electrical equipment? 9 A. No. Of course not. 10 Q. Is this, again, a letter that was typical of 11 the letters that you wrote to people who 12 asked you questions about the toxic 13 properties of chlorinated diphenyl, also 14 known as PCBs? 15 A. Yes. Correct. 16 Q. There are two enclosures to Exhibit 27. The 17 first is entitled -- the bottom of the second 18 page says, "Enclosure: Ask" -- "Enclosure: 19 Askarel booklet." Is that the booklet that 20 we talked about earlier that's marked 2 1 Exhibit 23? 22 A. I think so. I'm not sure, but I don't know 23 if there's another askarel bulletin. But to 24 the best of my recollection, that's the one 25 we would have sent because that's the only Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030356 147 1 one I remember Monsanto had with the term 2 "askarel" on it. 3 Q. The other enclosure is entitled, "Hygienic 4 Guide 'Chlorodiphenyls.'" 5 A. Uh-huh. 6 Q. Can you tell us what that is? 7 A. This is a -- it was a series of guides put 8 out by the Industrial Hygiene Association. 9 At that particular time they were sort of 10 associated with the Industrial Medical 11 Association, and it was put out. But mainly 12 it was put out by the industrial hygiene 13 group. It discusses the standards, the toxic 14 properties, the industrial hygiene practices, 15 and the medical information as far as 16 treatment is concerned. 17 Q. You're looking now at Exhibit 28; is that 18 correct? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. All right. Is that the hygienic series guide 2 1 from 1965 entitled, "Chlorodiphenyls"? 22 A. "Chlorodiphenyls," right. 23 Q. Well, is that the enclosure that you 24 referenced in Exhibit 27? 25 A. Yes. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030357 148 1 Q. The last page of Exhibit 28 identifies the 2 hygienic guides committee of the American 3 Industrial Hygiene Association. Is that the 4 committee that you were talking about in your 5 answer a minute ago? 6 A. Yes. But -- and I see in here they're mostly 7 industrial hygienists. The ones I 8 recommend -- I mean, the ones I remember -- 9 Sutton was a physician. He was with Eastman 10 Kodak. But Elkins was an industrial 11 hygienist for Massachusetts, I believe, or 12 Connecticut. Halley, H-a -- Halley was -- 13 H-a-l-l-e-y, was the industrial hygienist for 14 the State of West Virginia. I don't know the 15 other people. 16 Q. All right. The footnote on the first page of 17 Exhibit 28 states: "The Committee wishes to 18 acknowledge the preparation of the medical 19 information section of this Guide by the 20 Industrial Hygiene and Clinical Toxicology 2 1 Committee of I.M.A., and to acknowledge also 22 the assistance of Elmer P. Wheeler and Jack 23 T. Garrett in the writing of this guide." 24 First, what was the "IMA"? 25 A. Industrial Medical Association. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030358 14 9 1 Q. And Mr. Wheeler is the same Mr. Wheeler that 2 you earlier identified as being an industrial 3 hygienist who worked for you? 4 A. Right. Correct. 5 Q. And who is Mr. Garrett? 6 A. He was also an industrial hygienist, a second 7 industrial hygienist. And he reported to 8 Mr. Wheeler. Mr. Wheeler had more 9 functions. He was administrator in charge of 10 our toxicological section and our industrial 11 hygiene section, although he was an 12 industrial hygienist by training. 13 Q. Did the medical department of Monsanto have a 14 set of reprints of this hygienic series - 15 hygienic guide series on chlorodiphenyls -- 16 A. Oh, yeah. 17 Q. -- which has been marked as Exhibit 28, that 18 were available to distribution and response 19 to inquiries from customers? 20 A. We had it not only on chlorodiphenyls, but on 2 1 every product we made that they had a 22 hygienic guide series on. We sent it out to 23 anybody who asked for it. 24 Q. Were -- 25 A. And some that didn't ask. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030359 150 1 Q. Did the medical department also keep a set of 2 reprints of Dr. Treon's 1956 article on 3 Aroclor 1242 and Aroclor 1254 that were 4 disseminated to people who made an inquiry? 5 A. Yes. We didn't send that out as much as we 6 did this one . 7 Q. All right. To whom did you send out the 8 hygienic guide series? 9 A. To whom? 10 Q. Yes . 11 A. Anybody that would write in inquiring about 12 the safe handling of the material or the 13 toxicity information or any medical problems 14 that might be associated with excessive or 15 undue exposure. 16 Q. And to whom would you send a reprint of the 17 Treon articles? 18 A. Anybody who was interested in the same thing 19 but it was a physician or a toxicologist or 20 an industrial hygienist. 2 1 Q. Would you identify Exhibit 29, please? 22 A. Yes. This is a memorandum of mine on the 23 toxicity and safe handling of askarel, dated 24 March the 4th, 1971. 25 Q. Is that your signature on Exhibit 29? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030360 15 1 1 A. Yes, it is . 2 Q. And what was the purpose of this page? 3 A. I think this was probably written to be a 4 suitable packet of information that people 5 would write about, asking the problems that 6 maybe occurred in accidental ingestion or a 7 skin absorption -- acute skin absorption, 8 like a spill on it, as well as safe handling 9 data. It sort of was a -- just a handy guide 10 for anybody who was on the work floor that - 11 or in charge of the use of askarel. 12 Q. The date of this document is March 4 of 13 1971. Was the focus of this exhibit. 14 Exhibit 29, worker safety concerns; or was it 15 also intended to cover environmental 16 precautions ? .17 A. No. It was just safety concerns. This 18 was - - 19 Q. For workers? 20 A. For workers. This was written because we had 2 1 talked -- we had bulletins talking about 22 Aroclors all the time but people might -- I 2 3 don't know how they got -- I do not know how 24 customers of Monsanto knew that Monsanto was 25 using the generic term of "askarel." I don't Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030361 152 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 10 A . 11 12 Q- 13 14 15 A . 16 Q. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 know that. I don't remember that. But that -- obviously they would be -- write and must have written in enough times saying. "We're using askarel produced by Monsanto What do you know about it? What can you tell us about it?" And you prepared this sheet so you could use it as a common response to many such inquiries ? That's correct. I don't know how many -- I don't know how much we used i t. All right. But in response to inquiries specifically about askarel. this sheet was available to send out? That's correct. All right. MR. BAUER: Let's take another short break. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record. It's 38 minutes after 12:00 o'clock. (A recess was taken.) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: It's 51 minutes Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030362 153 1 2 3 Q. 4 5 6 7 8 9 A. 10 Q. 11 12 A . 13 Q. 14 A . 15 16 Q. 17 18 19 A , 20 21 Q 22 23 A 24 25 after 12:00 o'clock. We're back on the record. (By Mr. Bauer) Dr. Kelly, I'd like to turn now to the topic of PCBs in the environment. Did there come a time when Monsanto heard reports that PCBs were being found in wildlife samples from different parts of the environment? Yes . When did Monsanto first learn of such reports ? It was either in late '66 or '67. Where did the first reports come from? From Sweden. In Europe. I think it was Sweden. Do you recall the name or -- the name or names of any of the researchers who were involved in that first work? Dr. Widmark, W-i-d-m-a-r-k, and Jensen, J-e-n-s-e-n. Did you personally hear about those reports sometime at the end of 1966 or early in 1967? Well, yes. I heard about it from people - it was third-hand. They had read it, and people in our European office heard about Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030363 154 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. it. We don't subscribe to the Swedish newspapers in the United States. So we had an office in Brussels and an office in London; and they also manufactured PCB, along with several other European manufacturers. We were relatively small amount of -- small percentage of the total tonnage over there. So, yes, we heard about it; and I heard about it from them. What did you do after first hearing these reports about Dr. Jensen and Dr. Widmark's work? Said, "We ought to find out more about this." Sent it to our analytical people, to our management people, to our merchandising people. All right. Would you look at Exhibit 30, please, and tell me what that is. Yes. This is a letter from Dr. Wood, who is a research man in our Brussels office. He's English. And he enclosed a copy of Soren Jensen's paper. And I must have written to him on the 10th of February of that year, asking -- or a telephone conversation the day before he dictated this letter, saying, "What Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030364 155 1 2 3 4 5 Q. 6 7 A. 8 Q. 9 10 A . 11 Q. 12 13 A . 14 Q. 15 16 17 A . 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. 24 25 do you know about" -- I must have said, "What do you know about it? Send me anything you know so I can get the information out to people here . " Is this a letter written by David Wood to you ? Yes . And did you receive a copy of this in early 1967? Yes . Is Dr. Jensen's typed manuscript paper attached? Yes , it is. What did you do with Exhibit 30, with Dr. Jensen's paper in Exhibit 30, when you received it in early 1967? Well, I photostated it and sent it to the people in our management group in -- who were the product managers for PCB. I sent it to our analytical people. And I guess those are the ones I sent it to. I said, "What are we going to do about this?" Who do you -- well, strike that. Do you recall the names of some of the analytical people who were involved in Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030365 156 1 Monsanto's research department at that time? 2 A. Dr. Robert Keller, K-e-l-l-e-r, and a Scott 3 Tucker, a Dr. Scott Tucker. 4 Q. Was it clear at the outset that the Swedish 5 scientist -- the Swedish scientists' 6 identification of these substances as PCBs 7 was correct? 8 A. No, it was not. I'm not an analytical 9 chemist; but the analytical chemists that I 10 talked to and the research people, both in 11 the United States and England, said, "We're 12 not sure this is" -- that this is the right 13 designation for this peak in their 14 chromatograph. 15 Q. Were you told that by any of the analytical 16 people at Monsanto? 17 A. Yes . 18 Q. Did Monsanto confirm at some point in time 19 that these substances that were being found 20 in the environment, the peaks on the 2 1 chromatograms that you talked about, that 22 they were PCBs? 23 A. Yes. There was a gradual awareness that they 24 were -- they really were PCBs. But still 25 there was still some scepticism among some of Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030366 157 1 the people at Monsanto as late as 1970 that 2 we're really talking about PCBs because 3 Jensen first was looking for DDT. And 4 according to my information, DDT and PCBs are 5 pretty close on a gas chromatography or -- 6 Q. All right. You mentioned gas chromatogram 7 now and gas chromatography. And knowing that 8 you're not an analytical chemist, would you 9 generally describe what your understanding is 10 of what's involved there? 11 A. Yes. It's a pretty involved apparatus that 12 is supposed to pick up small amounts, parts 13 per million, of substances and a bunch of 14 interfering -- a bunch of other material. 15 There were also some additions to it. Some 16 people used electron capture in it. Some 17 people used a mass spectroscope in addition 18 to this gas chromatograph. It was a pretty 19 involved, sophisticated analytical tool. 20 Q. Okay. And -- 2 1 A. I can't know any more about it than that. 22 Q. Sure. Well, you mentioned peaks, similarity 23 between peaks of DDT and PCB, in one of your 24 answers. What did you mean by "peaks"? 25 A. Well, a peak in a chromatograph is almost the Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030367 158 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. same as the balance analytical scale. You run this thing through this -- you run the sample through this apparatus, and you get readings of -- the needle jumps up and down . in some different places. And you got a peak here and a certain wavelength, and you know that's DDT. You got another peak here, you don't know what that is. And sometimes they're so close that it's awful hard to identify individual compounds. So is the chromat -- the peaks in the chromatogram that you were talking about actually a drawing of - Well, peaks -- -- peaks and valleys - Yes. -- in a chart? Yes. I apologize for my lack of knowledge about analytical chemistry. There's no need for you to apologize. Dr. Ke1ly. Would you generally describe -- you mentioned after you got Dr. Jensen's paper that one of the things you did personally was give it to the analytical people. Would you Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030368 159 1 2 3 4 A. 5 6 7 Q. 8 9 A. 10 Q. 11 A. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Q. 19 20 A. 21 22 23 24 25 generally describe the response within Monsanto to the detection of PCBs in the environment in the late 1960's? Well, we don't know if it's there or not because there were spots. Let's be sure this man knows what he's talking about. So what did that mean the initial response was ? What did the what? What was the initial response, then? It was sort of, "Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't true." But there was a very healthy amount of scepticism -- among not only Monsanto people, but an awful lot of other people outside of Monsanto -- that what Jensen and Widmark were identifying was really honest to goodness PCBs. Did Monsanto undertake any analytical work to try to verify whether he was correct or not? Well, we did by the means we had at our disposal; but we did not have the sophisticated instruments we had -- he had. So we ordered some. But this you don't go down to Radio Shack and order one of these things off the shelf, you know. So it took Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030369 16 0 1 quite some time before we got one. 2 Q. Do you recall -- was that a GCMS? Is that 3 what they called that? 4 A. I think so. 5 Q. Do you recall how soon after -- how soon 6 after 1967 Monsanto ordered a GCMS? 7 A. No, I don't. 8 Q. Okay. Was that - 9 A. Pretty short time. 10 Q. Was that the research department that did 11 that? 12 A. Yes. It wasn't the medical department. 13 Q. So that would have been Dr. Keller and - 14 A. Keller. 15 Q. -- and Scott Tucker? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. All right. And do you know the approximate 18 date when Monsanto actually received a GCMS? 19 A. No, I do not. . 20 Q. All right. At some point in time, did 2 1 Monsanto also initiate degradation studies? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. What's a "degradation study"? 24 A. A "degradation study" is a -- consists of a 25 series of experiments to see whether a Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER_PCB-SD0000030370 16 1 1 compound can be broken down by bacterial 2 action, sunlight, other chemicals that the 3 compound you're concerned about is in close 4 proximity to. 5 Q. Do you recall where and within what 6 department of Monsanto that work was being 7 done? 8 A. It was done in the research department. I 9 don't know whether it was central research or 10 the research department or agricultural 11 chemicals division or the organic division, 12 the one that made PCBs. I don't know to this 13 day. 14 Q. All right. Do you know approximately when 15 Monsanto started degradation studies on PCB 16 products ? 17 A. I think sometime in '68, I believe. 18 Q. Did Monsanto consider doing additional 19 toxicological studies in the end of the 20 1960's as a result of the information learned 2 1 about PCBs being in the environment? 22 A. Yes, it did. 23 Q. Do you recall when that started, the 24 discussions about additional toxicological 25 testing? Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 7 62-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030371 162 1 A. Well, it's -- I would say that started as 2 soon as -- whenever they found out that the 3 material was ending up in birds and in fish. 4 And we thought we better find out. Somebody 5 may be eating the fish and eating the birds. 6 So we started that, I guess -- we certainly 7 started discussing it in 1977 or so. 8 Q. I'm sorry. Did you - 9 A. '66, '67. Sixty -- yeah. '67. 10 Q. All right. Would you turn to Exhibit 31, 11 please. And Exhibit 31 is a September 11, 12 1968, memo from Elmer Wheeler to Dr. W. R. 13 Richard with several carbon copies. And 14 attached to that is a letter dated 15 September 9, 1968, to Mr. Wheeler from 16 Industrial Bio-Test. And that attachment has 17 its own attachments. 18 First of all, were you one of the 19 people that received a carbon copy of 20 Mr. Wheeler's September 11 memorandum? 2 1 A. Yes. 22 Q. The attachments to Mr. Wheeler's letter 23 include documents entitled, "Proposed 24 Protocols for Aroclor Toxicity Studies"; is 25 that correct? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030372 163 1 A. 2 Q. 3 4 A. 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 A. 10 11 12 Q. 13 14 A. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Right. Did you receive and review those proposed protocols in the fall of 1968? Yes, I did. Was Industrial Bio-Test eventually selected to do additional toxicological testing on a long-term chronic feeding basis with respect to PCBs ? Yes. It was not only at that, there was quite an array of testing they carried out. Yes, they were. What do you recall about the scope of the testing program that was actually undertaken? It was pretty extensive, in fact. We went down with Dr. Joe Calandra, who was the head of Bio-Test, to the food and drug department. At that time, obviously, they were interested, too, because they seemed to have evidence that the material may be getting into the food chain and they didn't know anything about the toxicity -- the chronic toxicity of it. And I said, "Well, here's what we're going to do. We're all set to go. This is what we're going to do. What do you ' . Martin & Associates (409)762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030373 164 1 think of it?" 2 And whether they have anything 3 addition -- additional to add, I don't know. 4 But they certainly approved the final 5 protocol. They didn't have to; but I mean, 6 they -- they said, "This is" -- "yeah, this 7 is it." 8 Q. Okay. Was this in 1968 that you had these 9 discussions with the FDA? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And with whom at the FDA did you have such 12 discussions? 13 A. Fitsu, Arnold Leiman, Herb Blumenthal. These 14 are all Ph.D.s. Leiman was head of the 15 toxicological section of the -- of the FDA. 16 Blumenthal was head of the biochemistry 17 section, and Fitsu was the associate director 18 of the toxicological program. 19 Q. Were you personally involved in face-to-face 20 meetings with those officials about the scope 2 1 of the toxicological program that Monsanto 22 was proposing? 23 A. Yes. I was there, just like here. 24 Q. Okay. And -- 25 A. They were at the table, I was at the table. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030374 165 1 Q. 2 3 A. 4 5 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 Q. 10 A . 11 Q. 12 13 14 15 16 17 A . 18 19 Q. 20 21 22 23 24 25 A All right. And do you recall whether anyone from Industrial Bio-Test was there? Calandra was there. I don't know if anyone else -- I don't recall anyone else there; but I remember Joe was, Joe Calandra. Did you provide the protocols to the FDA for their review? Yes . Did you invite their comments? Yes . Did the FDA, anyone from the FDA - Mr. Leiman or Fitsu or Blumenthal - criticize the selection of Industrial Bio-Test as the outside contract lab retained to do this -- the work that was being discussed? Not then or not at any other time that I knew of . Did anyone from the FDA suggest an alternative to Industrial Bio-Test -- suggest an alternative to Industrial Bio-Test as the outside contract lab to perform the toxicological testing being discussed with the FDA? No, sir, they did not. No one did. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030375 166 1 Q. How many different PCB products were tested 2 by Industrial Bio-Test? 3 A. Three. 4 Q. All right. And the first attachment to 5 Exhibit 31, the letter from Dr. Calandra, 6 talks about a number of different types of 7 tests to be performed. It's the September 9 8 letter. 9 A. It wasn't from Calandra. It was from 10 Dr. Fancher. 11 Q. I'm sorry. Dr. Fancher? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. He worked for Joe Calandra? 14 A. Yes. He was No. 2 or 3 person. 15 Q. All right. 16 A. Yes. He said we got three different Aroclors 17 plus a control plus two levels. We were 18 going to do chicken toxicity, reproduction, 19 and meat and egg residue study, mallard 20 ducks, three-generation reproduction study in 2 1 rats, two-year chronic toxicity testing in 22 rats and dogs, fish studies. 23 Q. Do you recall whether Monsanto, in fact, 24 initiated through Industrial Bio-Test in the 25 late 1960's two-year oral chronic testing of Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030376 167 1 PCBs in rats? 2 A. Yes, they did. 3 Q . Also in dogs? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What about a three-generation reproduction 6 study in rats? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What about a mutagenicity study in rats? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And were there also chicken toxicity and 11 reproduction studies? 12 A. Yes. The only one I'm a little confused 13 about is the mallard ducks. We were -- we 14 had been working with the fish and wildlife 15 people, but wild ducks -- and I guess a 16 mallard is a wild duck -- have a peculiar 17 habit -- not peculiar, but a habit of laying 18 eggs only twice a year. So if you miss one 19 chance of the eggs, you can't do anything. 20 So that sort of fell through. The wild ones 21 fell through. I don't know if he did the 22 domestic mallards or not. I don't know. 23 Q. Okay. So although there's a proposed 24 protocol in here for duck studies, your 25 recollection, for the reason you stated, the Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030377 168 1 2 A. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Q. 11 12 13 A. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 duck study was never initiated? I'm not sure. I know the wild one was given up. That was the one we were -- it was - the fish and wildlife people were supposed to trap wild mallards and test them. But that didn't work out. Whether Joe did mallards or not, I don't know. I know he did the chickens, but I'm not -- I don't recall having seen the mallard duck study. All right. Do you recall an effort to do range finding before the long-term, two-year study started? Oh, sure. That's the usual situation. If you start a two-year study, before you start it, there's about a -- six months that you have to -- first you got to get the animals. You got to put them in a quarantine. When we started, we told Joe -- I told Joe, "Start getting these animals. This is going to go through. We're going to okay it. Start getting the rats and dogs and quarantine them and be sure that they aren't going to break down with worms or white diarrhea or God knows what laboratory animals get." Then you run a range finding test Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030378 16 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 because you want to find out that you aren't -- if you're going to run this for two years, you don't want to kill the animals by giving them too much so they die in 6 months, 12 months. You've got to try to analyze under a 30-day -- a 90-day test what level the animal can take. In a two-year testing, you want a level that won't harm them. You want to get a safe level. You want to get a level that you know they can live for two years and will harm them, and then you want to see what pathology will occur and what the target organ is. Then you want to get a level in between so that you get a safe level. You know you got a safe level. You hope this middle one will be safe, too; but you don't want to give them a middle level that's going to kill all the animals and screw up the results. Q. All right. So were each of the -- the three Aroclors that you talked about before, the three PCB products, were they each given these various tests at three dose levels? A. Yes . Q. All right. Do you recall when the range Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030379 17 0 1 finding studies that you described earlier 2 commenced ? 3 A. As soon as we approved the protocol. They 4 got the dogs -- they got the dogs, and they 5 wanted to hurry it up. I mean, they wanted 6 to get started. So they got the rats and 7 dogs and isolated them earlier. But I 8 don't -- I'll have to find out when they 9 actually started it. 10 Q. Well, why don't you identify Exhibit 32 for 11 us . 12 A. We authorized it in '68, and I think they 13 started it almost immediately afterwards. 14 Q. What is Exhibit -- Exhibit 32? 15 A. Exhibit 32 is an authorization for two of the 16 Aroclor studies. He had two batches of 17 Aroclor studies. He had four of them there 18 at first. The fourth -- the fourth was -- 19 Q. The first being? 20 A. The first one was of fowl, the gross 21 toxicity. And then the other one was a rat 22 tissue study. And when he started the 23 two-year feeding -- 24 Q. Well, let's back up to Exhibit 32. 25 A. Yeah. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030380 17 1 1 Q. 2 3 4 A. 5 Q6 7 8 9 A. 10 Q. 11 A . 12 Q. 13 14 A . 15 Q. 16 17 18 A . 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Is that a letter that Mr. Wheeler sent to Dr. Calandra in 1968 authorizing the initiation of some of these studies? That's correct. All right. Now, you said there was -- there was a fourth there, fourth Aroclor. There's -- the first three Aroclors referenced are Aroclor 1242, 1254, and 1260. Right. Were all three of those PCB products? Yes . And the fourth one you mentioned is Aroclor 5460? That's chlorinated diphenyl benzene. All right. After the tests were initiated, did you continue to have contacts with the FDA? Oh, yes. We had written contacts, and we kept in touch personally. I sent them - every time I got a quarterly report, I sent it up to Leiman. And I would see Leiman at least -- or Fitsu -- once a year, maybe once every eight months, every time I was in Washington. I saw them at least between once a year and twice a year in those years of '69 Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030381 172 1 2 Q. 3 4 5 A. 6 Q. 7 8 A. 9 10 11 12 13 Q. 14 A. 15 16 17 18 19 20 2 1 Q. 22 23 24 25 and '70. How often did you get summary reports on the various studies being conducted by Industrial Bio-Test that you sent out to the FDA? We got a bundle. Would you look at Exhibit 33, please, and identify that for us. Yes. This is a letter from me to Blumenthal. And I told him what we were doing, and I sent him copies of the status report for the chronic testing at Industrial Bio-Test. And what's the date of Exhibit 33? April 8th, 1970. And that was the end of six months' administration under rats. So that meant we really -- six months -- we started -- must have started about nine months before April the 8th, 1970, because as I said, it takes that long to get the thing rolling. When you sent status report -- well, strike that. Let me back up. Is Exhibit 33 the file copy of a letter that you sent to Mr. Blumenthal, or Dr. Blumenthal, in April of 1970? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030382 173 1 A. Right. Yes. 2 Q. And when you sent it to Dr. Blumenthal, there 3 were -- were there a series of status reports 4 attached ? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Were there status reports attached with this 7 letter and other similar letters with respect 8 to each of the studies and each of the 9 species ? 10 A. Yes. We sent them everything we got from 11 Bio-Test. We sent food and drug everything 12 we got. 13 Q. Would you turn next to Exhibit 34, please, 14 which is a document entitled, 15 "Three-Generation Reproduction Study in 16 Albino Rats with Aroclor 1242, Aroclor 1254, 17 Aroclor 1260, Results of the First 18 Generation," September 4, 1970, submitted by 19 R. Emmet Kelly, M.D. And that's on Monsanto 20 letterhead. Attached is a document bearing 2 1 the same title, dated September 4, 1970, with 22 the Industrial Bio-Test letterhead. 23 A. Right. 24 Q. Is this one of the summary reports that you 25 submitted to the FDA? Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030383 174 1 A. Yes, it is. 2 Q. This is a summary report specifically with 3 one study, the three-generation reproduction 4 study, for all three Aroclors? 5 A. Well, it's 1242, 1254, and 1260. Yes, all 6 three. 7 Q. The fourth page of Exhibit 34 has an outline 8 of the study which includes the starting 9 date. Do you see that there? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And what does it say the starting date was 12 for the three-generation? 13 A. May the 8th, 1969. 14 Q. All right. Does that comport with your 15 recollection as to when these long-term 16 feeding studies were actually on feeding, if 17 you will? 18 A. Well, these aren't the long-term. This is 19 three-generation rats. That's a different 20 experiment. 2 1 Q. Different than the two-year - 22 A. Yes. The two-year -- , 23 Q. -- lifetime studies? 24 A. -- you take a batch of animals; and once you 25 get a dose that you're sure that the rats Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 7 62-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030384 175 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 could take over a period of two years, you start them on it. A three -- and you keep it going for two years. This, you get the -- reproduction study, you get male and female rats. You feed them, mate them, then check the pups, mate and feed those and mate them. That's the first generation. Go to the second generation, you get another series of pups. Then you go on and check the -- feed the third generation. So it's a different story. It takes pretty long. I don't know what the gestation period of rats are. It's not too -- it doesn't take long. But by the time you get all this business taken care of, it takes quite a while because -- Q. So is what you're saying that May of 1969 was the starting date for the three-generation reproduction study? A. That's correct. Q. And do you recall approximately when the other two -- the two-year feeding studies ' were in relation to that? A. I think they were started before that. I'm sure they were. Q. Do you know -- well, strike that. Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030385 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 6 Compare the scope of this toxicological program with the kinds of toxicologic work that Monsanto was doing in the late 1960's with pesticides that would leave residues on food. This was certainly as involved, as extensive as anything used either on a direct food additive or an inadvertent food additive. It was probably more so because I don't think they were having three-generation studies in those days on food additives. So this was as wide a test as the Government could figure out and as well as our toxicological consultant could figure out. They're in essence given a blank check, and they run everything. MR. BAUER: This is a convenient breaking time if we can pick up with the rest of it tomorrow. MR. KIM: Certainly. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off the record. It's 19 minutes after 1:00 o'clock. This is the end of Tape No. 2. Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030386 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 7 (Whereupon the deposition of Robert Emmet Kelly, M.D., was recessed at 1:19 p.m. and is to be continued 9:00 a.m. on February 16 , 1994 . ) (f THE STATE OF /ft t 5 S o U /&. C COUNTY OF ST. (--OQ/: : I, ROBERT EMMET KELLY, M.D., hereby certify that I have read the foregoing transcript of my testimony given in the foregoing numbered and styled case and that same is true and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. I further certify that any and all corrections have been made on a separate page and initialed by me. This the -3o '"TV! CLT C ________________, 1994. day of ROBERT EMMET KELLY, M . / . this the SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO BEFORE ME, day of _JSXL^jULL/ 1994. Notary Public in and for the State of Jr) / 'ssou /U My Commission Expires Job No. 94-511 ------------------ fWARy PUBLfC STATE OF MISSOURI ST. LGUI3 COUNTY MY COMMISSION EXP. JAN. )S.t93 Martin & Associates (409) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030387 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 178 THE STATE OF TEXAS : I, Irma L. Reyes, Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Texas, hereby certify that this deposition transcript is a true record of the testimony given by the witness named herein, after said witness was duly sworn or affirmed by me. I further certify that I am neither attorney nor counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this testimony was taken. Further, I am not a relative or employee of any attorney of record in this cause, nor do I have a financial interest in the action. Further certification requirements, if any, pursuant to the Rules will be certified to in the Supplemental Certificate after they have occurred. the -- a Subscribed and sworn to on this, day of March, 19 9 4. Irma L. Reyes, CSR Certificate No. 4071 Expires December 31, 1994 My Notary Commission expires September 21, 1996 Martin & Associates ( 409 ) 762-2222 WATER PCB-SD0000030388 LIST OF CHANGES OR CORRECTIONS To the Deposition of If there are any .changes or corrections, please list them below giving the page number, line number, and reason for the change. The reasons for making changes are: (1) (2) (3) To To To clarify conform correct the record: to the facts: transcription errors: UPage No.___ Changed ___ 7/ Page No.___ Changed ___ Page No.___ j-- If Line No. 4^ // Line No. H Line No. Reason for Change ----------- TO / 0 V/y Reason for Change fl >_ 4To V'C'i __ Reason for Change k-i &->*- Changed ___ Page No._ ^ Changed __ Page No.__ ?r Changed _ Page No._ / DO_ Line No. C3> __ Reason for Change <,, To C^ <*^4^pju.sU'~s J Line No. Lf O Line No. _ Reason for Change 2- 3 To ________________________________ '/tUo ___ Reason for Change Changed _ Page No.-J /d Line No. Changed _ Page No._ i o 1 Line No. Changed _ (( <lc-L c Yo Reason for Change sy'I'LL J.L-Li'-' Vv'Yi\ To Reason for Change To Page No. Line No. Reason for Change WATER_PCB-SD0000030389