Document xjxEYnVNaEXYQ68JqynmLzwOb

COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 1 / UNITED STATES DISTRICT EASTERN DISTRICT OF MISSOURI 2 NORTHERN DIVISION 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) 4) PLAINTIFFS, ) 5) VS. ) CAUSE NO: N87-0030C 6) MEXICO FEED AND SEED CO., ET AL, ) 7) DEFENDANTS. ) 8 9 10 DEPOSITION OF JAMES R. SAVAGE TAKEN BY BEVERLEE J. DeSTEIN, ESQ. 11 ON BEHALF OF PLAINTIFFS FEBRUARY 16, 1990 12 13 14 15 16 REPORTED BY JO ANN STURM 17 CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER 18 19 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 20 21 RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO SERVICE 1015 LOCUST STREET - SUITE 911 22 ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63101 (314) 231-2202 23 24 25 RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000060986 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 2 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF MISSOURI 2 NORTHERN DIVISION 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) 4) PLAINTIFF, ) 5) VS. ) CAUSE NO: N87-0030C 6) MEXICO FEED AND SEED CO., ET AL,) 7) DEFENDANT. ) 8 9 10 DEPOSITION OF JAMES R. SAVAGE, produced, sworn and 11 examined on the 16th day of February, A.D., 1990, between 12 the hours of ten fifty o'clock in the forenoon and three 13 o'clock in the afternoon of that day, at the law offices of 14 Husch, Eppenberger, Donohue, Cornfeld & Jenkins, 100 North 15 Broadway, in the City of St. Louis, State of Missouri, 16 before Jo Ann Sturm, Certified Shorthand Reporter, 17 Registered Professional Reporter, and Notary Public within 18 and for the State of Missouri, in a certain cause now 19 pending in the United States District Court, between United 20 States of America, Plaintiff, and Mexico Feed and Seed 21 Company,'et al, Defendants; on behalf of the Plaintiff. 22 23 24 25 RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000060987 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 1 APPEARANCES 2 For the Plaintiff; 3 United States Department of Justice By: Beverlee J. DeStein, Esq. 4 Land and Natural Resources Division Ben Franklin Station 5 P.O. Box 7611 Washington, D.C. 20044 6 For the Defendant Pierce Waste Oil; 7 Brett and Erdel, P.C. By: J. Kevin Hamlett, Esq. 8 103 West Monroe Street Mexico, Missouri 65265 9 For the Defendant Pierce Waste Oil and 10 Jack and Martin Pierce: Hendren &: Andrae 11 By: Hal Gibbs, Esq. P.O. Box 1069 12 Jefferson City, Missouri 65102 13 For Monsanto: Husch, Eppenberger, Donohue, Cornfeld 14 & Jenkins By: Thomas M. Carney, Esq. 15 100 North Broadway St. Louis, Missouri 63101 16 17 Also present: Mr. Eric Nottingham 18 Mr. David A. Ramsey Mr. Gerhaardt Braeckel 19 INDEX 20 Page Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 24 50 21 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 25 50 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 26 50 22 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 27 50 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 28 50 23 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 29 60 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 30 60 24 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 31 64 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 32 68 25 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 33 68 3 RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000060988 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 4 1 Plaintiff' s Exhibit Numbe r 34 Plaintiff' s Exhibit Number 35 2 Plaintiff' s Exhibit Number 36 Plaintiff1 s Exhibit Number 37 3 68 68 68 68 4 5 STIPULATION 6 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between 7 counsel for the parties that this deposition may be taken 8 in shorthand by Jo Ann Sturm, CSR, RPR, and afterwards 9 transcribed into printing and signature by the witness is 10 not waived. 11 JAMES R. SAVAGE 12 of lawful age, being first duly sworn to tell the truth, 13 the whole truth and nothing but the truth, deposes and says 14 in behalf of the Plaintiff, as follows: 15 DIRECT EXAMINATION 16 BY MS. DeSTEIN: 17 Q. Good morning. 18 A. Good morning. 19 Q. Would you state your name and spell your last 20 name for the record, please. 21 , A. James Richard Savage. 22 Q. Spell your last name for the record, please. 23 A. S-A-V-A-G-E. 24 Q. What is your current address? 25 A. 1461 Oak Bluff Lane, Kirkwood, Missouri, 63122. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000060989 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 5 1 Q. And your current employer? 2 A. Monsanto Company. 3 Q. How long have you worked for Monsanto? 4 A. 32 years. 5 Q. Do you have your Social Security number? 6 A. 388-32-0586. 7 Q. Do you understand, Mr. Savage, that you're here 8 today as a result of a notice of deposition that the 9 government has served on Monsanto Corporation? 10 A. I'm generally aware of that. 11 Q. And you understand that your statements today -- 12 that your statements today are your statements but you are 13 also speaking on behalf of Monsanto? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. All right. Let's go now to your education, Mr. 16 Savage. How old are you? 17 A. I'm 55. 18 Q. All right, and did you -- you graduated from high 19 school? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Where? 22 A. Wauwatosa, Wisconsin. 23 Q. What year? 24 A. 1952. 25 Q. And did you go on to college? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000060990 COMPOTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 6 1 A. Yes, University of Wisconsin, BS in chemical 2 engineering 1957. 3 Q. Did you receive any monsores or write any papers? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did you have any other area of expertise besides 6 chemical engineering? 7 A. Not in terms of formal education, no. 8 Q. And after college, what did you do in terms of 9 employment? 10 A. I went to work for Monsanto immediately after 11 that. 12 Q. And did you make a physical moves in terms of 13 your residence? 14 A. Yes, I moved to St. Louis in 1957. 15 Q. Okay, that was right when you graduated? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. And what was your original job with Monsanto? 18 A. I worked as a chemical engineer at the Queeny 19 plant on South Second Street. 20 Q. And how long did you work as a chemical engineer 21 there? 22 A. I was there one year. 23 Q. Was there a particular group that you belonged to 24 at that time? 25 A. It was called a technical service department. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000060991 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 7 1 Q. And who did you report to? 2 A. Jim Knox, K-N-O-X. 3 Q. What did you do in '58? 4 A. I was transferred to the Anniston plant in 5 Alabama. 6 Q. When you were back at Queeny as a -- working with 7 technical services as a chemical engineer, what were your 8 duties? 9 A. Small improvements to the chemical processes that 10 were in operation there at the time. 11 Q. What chemical processes. 12 Q. Well, at that time the Queeny plant made more 13 than 100 products and I was involved in perhaps 4 or 5 of 14 them during the one year period I was there. 15 Q. Did you work with PCB's at that time? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Now, in Anniston, what group did you work for 18 there? 19 A. At first I was in the technical service 20 department. 21 Q. For how long? 22 A. 3 years. 23 Q. And then what did you do? 24 A. After that, I became a production supervisor for 25 2 years. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000060992 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 8 1 Q. And as a production supervisor, what were your 2 duties? 3 A. For the first year at that time I supervised the 4 chlorene plant; in the second year I still had the chlorene 5 plant but I also had the Aroclor department. 6 Q. All right. Who did you work to during those 7 years? 8 A. Carl -- during which time? 9 Q. Let's start with the 3 year period you were still 10 in technical services but in Anniston? 11 A. Jim Larkin, L-A-R-K-I-N. 12 Q. 2 years in Anniston? 13 A. First Carl Edelblut. 14 Q. And then? And then? 15 A. Bob Moody. 16 Q. What did you do then? That would have been 1963 17 when you ended that duty, is that right? 18 A. Well, I finished at that time as a production 19 supervisor. Yes, at that time I was transferred to the 20 Krummich plant which is over in Sauget, Illinois. 21 Q. Is Sauget near here? 22 A. Yes, right across the river, in sight of this 23 building. 24 Q. What was your job at Krummich? 25 A. As a supervising engineer in the technical RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000060993 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 9 1 service department. 2 Q. And who did you -- 3 A. And then later on a group leader. 4 Q. How long were you a supervising engineer? 5 A. I don't remember exactly. About a year, maybe 2. 6 Q. And then how long were you a group leader? 7 A. Well, for the remainder of the time I was at the 8 plant, I left the Krummich plant in '67. 9 Q. Who did you report to when you were supervising 10 engineer? 11 A. Bill Taffee, T-A-F-F-E-E-. 12 Q. And then as a group leader? 13 A. Homer Carder, C-A-R-D-E-R, Bill Wilson. 14 Q. What were your duties as a supervising engineer? 15 A. I had a group of chemical engineers who worked on 16 various processes at the Krummich plant. 17 Q. Could you give us any of those processes having 18 to do with Aroclors or PCB containing material? 19 A. There was an Aroclor department at the Krummich 20 plant and during that time that department was one of a 21 number that I was responsible for from the standpoint of 22 technical work. 23 Q. At that point in time, what would you -- could 24 you characterize for us the type of work that was being 25 done on Aroclors or with Aroclors at Krummich during the RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000060994 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 10 1 period '63 through, say, '64, '65, when you were a 2 supervising engineer? 3 A. I'm a little confused about the time period 4 because during the time I was at Krummich I was both the 5 supervising engineer level and the group leader level and I 6 think it was at the group leader level that I had 7 responsibility for the Aroclor department. So it would 8 have been more like '66. 9 Q. All right, '66, '67, in that period of time? 10 A. Yes, but anyway in answer to your question, the 11 work that was going on in the Aroclor department at that 12 time was relatively minor. It was not one of the bigger 13 departments that our people worked on and the only kinds of 14 projects that I can remember were -- were modest 15 improvements to the handling of -- of packaging and some 16 waste handling. 17 Q. When you say packaging, what -- what do you mean? 18 A. Well, the Aroclor products were shipped out 19 sometimes in drums, usually the largest volumes were 20 shipped out in tank cars and some in tank trucks, but some 21 was handled in drums and packaging supplement filling the 22 drums. 23 Q. When you talked about the waste, what type of 24 stuff were you doing there? 25 A. The only project I can remember to do with RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000060995 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 11 1 handling residue from the distillation step of the process. 2 Q. Where was the distillation done? 3 A. Distillation was just an integral part of the 4 Aroclor process. 5 Q. Was that done at Monsanto? 6 A. Done at the Krummich plant, yes. 7 Q. Was that waste Aroclor? 8 A. No, no, that was the -- the regular production 9 was distilled, that was just a normal part of the 10 production process. 11 Q. What was distilled off, was that water and acid? 12 A. The product was distilled off. What was left 13 behind was a still residue. 14 Q. Was your job to get rid of that still residue? 15 A. The particular project I mentioned was simply to 16 improve the handling of the stilled residue, put it into 17 drums to be taken to landfill. 18 Q. But you didn't do any reprocessing of used 19 Aroclor? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Now, in '67 what did you do? 22 A. '67 I was transferred to the Queeny plant again 23 South Second Street. 24 Q. And what was your job there at that time? 25 A. General superintendent of technical services and RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000060996 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 12 1 laboratory. 2 Q. Would that be what was sometimes referred to as 3 A-lab? 4 A. That laboratory was the analytical laboratory. 5 Q. A -- 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. Who did you report to there? 8 A. Jack Munie, M-U-N-I-E. 9 Q. And how long were you there? 10 A. 3 years. 11 Q. And what were your duties as general 12 superintendent of the technical services in the lab? 13 A. Technical service was a group of 80 to 100 14 engineers, mostly chemical engineers but also mechanical 15 engineers and draftsmen. Again the job of the technical 16 services department was to improve the processes at the 17 plant. Analytical lab did the traditional job of analyzing 18 the products being made and that was also under my 19 supervision. 20 Q. Do you remember who directed the lab? 21 A. Ray Geisman, G-E-I-S-M-A-N. 22 Q. Was Queeny still producing that 100 products 23 approximately of that large a number of 1967, '70? 24 A. I think so, I think so. 25 Q. Were they producing Aroclors? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000060997 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 13 1 A. No. Queeny plant never made Aroclor. Processed 2 some Aroclor, but never made it. 3 Q. Where was Aroclor made? 4 A. Anniston and Krummich. 5 Q. And when you say that -- excuse me, I just want 6 to make a note -- when you say that Queeny got involved in 7 processing PCB's, would you describe for us what Queeny 8 did? 9 A. By processing, I was referring to the blending 10 operation at Queeny. We had an operation called central 11 drumming which incorporated a blending facility which made 12 a number of different products and among those were some 13 that contained Aroclor. 14 Q. What would you start with? 15 A. With Aroclor from either Anniston or Krummich. 16 Q. Did you ever receive Aroclor from Findett 17 Corporation? 18 A. Not that I know of. 19 Q. You don't remember that at all? 20 A. I don't remember during that time receiving any 21 Aroclor from Findett. I -- I should comment that in the 22 responsibility that I had then, I would not have been very 23 closely involved with any work that was going on in the 24 central drumming facility. 1 or 2 of my engineers might 25 have been involved in doing that but I would only know from RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000060998 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 14 1 their reports what they were -- they were doing. I 2 wouldn't have known the details. 3 Q. All right. Now, we're talking about a period 4 1967 through 1970 at this point. 5 A. Right. 6 Q. Okay. We'll come back to that period of time, 7 but let's go on to just get your employment history with 8 the company complete. What did you do then in 1970? 9 A. I was transferred to the general office as a 10 manufacturing manager. 11 Q. When you say general office are you talking about 12 800 North Lindbergh? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. That's also the corporate headquarters, is it 15 not? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Could you give me your title again. 18 A. Manufacturing manager. 19 Q. And how long were you there in that position? 20 A. 5 years. 21 Q. And who did you report to? 22 A. Howard Bergen, B-E-R-G-E-N. 23 Q. Bergen, B-E-R-G-E-N? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. And what were your duties? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000060999 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 15 1 A. I was responsible for organizing the production 2 of the various products of -- of our business group. 3 Q. And then what did you do in 1975? 4 A. In 1975 I -- I went into some -- I was kind of 5 special assignment involved in kind of a study that the 6 company had going on on business practices, it was called 7 the MBR program. 8 Q. MBR? 9 A. Yeah, it was a personnel type function. 10 Q. Could you tell us what that stood for? 11 A. Management by results. 12 Q. Who did you report to at that time? 13 A. Tom Gossage, I think. 14 Q. How long did you remain working on that? 15 A. 2 years. 16 Q. What did you do in '77? 17 A. In '77 probably the end of the year, I - - I went 18 into the licensing function, technology licensing function 19 Q. And what was your title? 20 A. Licensing manager, I think. 21 Q. How long did you do that? 22 A. Well, I'm still in licensing, different titles 23 and so forth. 24 Q. All right, and who do you report to currently? 25 A. I currently report to Bill Williams. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061000 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 16 1 Q. Do you know a Milton Tegethoff? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. When did you meet Mr. Tegethoff? 4 A. I think I first met him while I was in the 5 manufacturing manager job. 6 Q. Where -- where would that have been? Are you 7 talking about when you were in corporate headquarters from 8 '70 to '75? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And what were the circumstances of that meeting? 11 A. Well, I can't -- I can't tell you exactly what 12 meeting it was, but we worked with -- with Mr. Tegethoff 13 and Findett on a number of specific manufacturing jobs 14 during the time I was in the manufacturing manager 15 position. 16 Q. Could you characterize your relationship with 17 Tegethoff at all? I mean, were you -- have you ever 18 socialized with Mr. Tegethoff? 19 A. No. Perhaps business lunch or something like 20 that but I don't know him outside of business. 21 Q. You work fairly closely with him in business? 22 A. At times. He -- he was in the toll manufacturing 23 business and I guess he still is, and sometimes we would 24 need to make some product for which we didn't have the 25 equipment and we would ask him to bid on the project. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061001 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 17 1 Q. Were you ever to get any -- have any 2 understanding for the corporate relationship between 3 Monsanto and Findett? 4 A. No, I was aware that he was doing a number of 5 projects from -- for Monsanto and mine were only some of 6 those. 7 Q. Who introduced you to Mr. Tegethoff, if you 8 recall? 9 A. I don't recall. 10 Q. Do you know if Mr. Tegethoff had any close 11 personal relationships and/or close business relationships 12 with anyone else at Monsanto? 13 MR. CARNEY: Objection to the form of the 14 question. 15 Q. Do you know if he had any close business 16 relationships with anyone at Monsanto? 17 MR. CARNEY: Objection, I don't know what you 18 mean by close, but you can answer. 19 A. He certainly had business relationships with 20 other people at Monsanto. There was somebody in purchasing 21 and I can't remember the name at the present time who was 22 responsible for outside manufacturing. He's now retired or 23 long retired, but whoever that was would have had very 24 regular contact with him. 25 Q. Do you know a Bill Richard? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061002 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 18 1 A. Sure. 2 Q. And Mr. Richard was the head of the research 3 department, is that right? 4 A. Dr. Richard. 5 Q. Right. Was he the head? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And did you ever meet with Dr. Richard and Mr. 8 Tegethoff together if you recall? 9 A. I don't recall, could have. 10 Q. Did you know a Dave or a Des Houseman? 11 A. Des Houseman. 12 Q. Des Hosmer? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. Do you know if there was a relationship between 15 Des Hosmer and Milt Tegethoff? 16 A. No idea. 17 Q. Do you a Jack Malloy? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Where does Mr. Malloy work? 20 A. At the general office. 21 Q. What is his title? 22 A. I'm not sure precisely, but he's something like 23 the director of safety for chemical company. 24 Q. How long have you known him? 25 A. Since 1958. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061003 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 19 1 Q. And that's -- he worked at Monsanto at that time, 2 too, didn't he? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you know what his position was in the fifties, 5 sixties and seventies? 6 A. Well, Jack started at the Anniston plant while I 7 was there as a technical service engineer. He's been a 8 production supervisor and a maintenance supervisor. He was 9 plant manager at Krummich for quite a long time. 10 Q. Do you remember the time frame? 11 A. When he was plant manager at Krummich? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. He just left that job a year or so ago. 14 Q. And when did he start that if you can recall? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Would it have been like 1970? 17 A. Oh, no. No, he was plant manager at most 5 18 years. 19 Q. Did he ever work at Queeny? 20 A. I don't think so. 21 Q. Now, did you know Don Roush? 22 A. I remember the name, I -- I don't know him well 23 enough to say much more than that. 24 Q. Would you know him on the street? 25 A. Probably not. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061004 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 20 1 Q. You don't know then if he's alive or dead today? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Jim Bryant? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Tell me, how do you know Jim Bryant? 6 A. He was at the Anniston plant. 7 Q. And when was the last time you ever saw him? 8 A. Well, he worked at the general office at the time 9 during some of that time in '70 to '75, but I can't -- 10 can't place it accurately. 11 Q. You haven't seen him beyond '75? 12 A. No. 13 Q. You don't know whether he is -- whether he's 14 alive or dead? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Lou Stark? 17 A. Yeah, I know Lou. 18 Q. How long have you known Mr. Stark? 19 A. I probably met him in 1970 when I joined the 20 business group. 21 Q. And have you had dealings with him? 22 A. Not since 1975. 23 Q. C.P. Dunker? 24 A. I don't recognize the name. 25 Q. Are you at all familiar -- I mean, you're RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061005 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 21 1 familiar with A-lab, correct, because A-lab was under your 2 direction and supervision back when you worked at Queeny, 3 correct? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. Period '67 through '70. 6 A. Right. 7 Q. All right. Now, are you familiar with the fire 8 test center or sometimes referred to within the Monsanto 9 linqua franka as the fire shack? 10 A. I know of it. I don't believe I was ever there. 11 Q. Do you know where it's located? 12 A. Someplace in St. Charles County, but I don't know 13 any more than that. 14 Q. Krummich had a laboratory, too, didn't it? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What would the Krummich plant lab do as opposed 17 to what the A-lab did at Queeny? 18 A. Well, in general Krummich plant would do the same 19 thing for the Krummich that the A-lab at Queeny would do 20 for the Queeny lab. 21 Q. Did you ever hear in discussions at any time in 22 your dealings with people at Monsanto or otherwise Findett 23 referred to as Monsanto's Junior Achievement project? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Now, you've testified that you believe you met RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061006 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 22 1 Mr. Tegethoff in the period 1970 through '75? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. Do you -- do you think you did not meet him 4 before then? 5 A. I don't recall having met him before then. 6 Q. Were you aware of what Mr. Tegethoff beyond the 7 toll manufacturing business -- do you know whether or not 8 Findett performed any other function for Monsanto or 9 Monsanto's customers? 10 A. They handled reprocessing of catalyst for the 11 Krummich plant. That had nothing to do with PCB's. They 12 were involved in some kind of reclamation scheme for part 13 of the PCB product line. 14 Q. Would it be fair to say that -- that -- do you 15 remember this, that a Monsanto customer upon buying 16 products, for instance, Therminol and Pydraul, would be 17 with this substance was sold to them that having the 18 material reprocessed at a later time should the material 19 become contaminated, that that was a -- an additional 20 incentive for customers of Monsanto to buy the Monsanto 21 product as opposed to another company's product? 22 A. Well, I remember that there was such a scheme. 23 Exactly how it was portrayed to the customers I wouldn't 24 know, I wasn't involved in marketing. 25 Q. Would you give us your understanding just from RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061007 COMPOTER-AIPEP TRANSCRIPTION 23 1 the engineering technical point of view, your understanding 2 of how that process would work? 3 A. I would be speculating. Contamination could mean 4 alot of different things. 5 Q. I'd like to show you what's been previously 6 marked as Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Number 16 and ask 7 you to take a look at it. It's Mexico document Bate stamp 8 691, 692, 693 and 694. Have you had an opportunity to look 9 at that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Pirecting your attention to Mexico 691, that's 12 the top -- the top page, it says -- it's a note -- it's a 13 piece of note paper on a xerox document it looks like from 14 the desk of J.R. Savage, is that correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Is that J.R. Savage in fact you, sir? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And the handwriting on there while it's a little 19 hard to read on the copy, is it your handwriting? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Up in the upper righthand corner, there's a stamp 22 from the files of the WJK laboratory, please return. Is it 23 fair to say then that -- that this note was copied and then 24 that stamp was made on the copy document? 25 A. Yes, certainly appears that way. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIPEO WATER PCB-SD0000061008 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION2J 1 Q. Was that something that -- that you did or that 2 Monsanto did as a regular routine that you would copy 3 documents like this note that you have? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Can you think of why this one would have been 6 copied and then stamped with this file? 7 A. Well, obviously someone at the Krumm.ich plant 8 laboratory must have copied it. 9 Q. It's got 4870 on it. Did you write that? 10 A. No, that's not my writing. 11 Q. Do you know why that was put on there? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you know what the initials PF or PE are? 14 A. No, I don't know what that means. 15 Q. Do you remember writing this note? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you remember seeing the document that's 18 attached, the 3 page document that's attached? 19 MR. CARNEY; Back at the time. 20 Q. At the time. 21 A. Well, this is almost 20 years ago. I remember 22 the general situation. I suppose that I saw this document, 23 but I don't remember that precisely. 24 Q. All right, but this is a -- this is a 3 page 25 attached document is a memo to you from Mr. Stark entitled RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061009 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 25 1 recovered Aroclor 1242 for Pydraul dated April 8th, 1970, 2 is that correct? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. Going back to the front page now, on the memo I 5 can't read it. Can you read number 1 in your handwriting? 6 A. This copy is not that good. I believe that the 7 end of it probably says WGK so it must have been from the 8 Krummich plant. 9 Q. What about number 2? 10 A. Dick Blowers. 11 Q. He worked at WGK? 12 A. Yes, he was in the lab. 13 Q. Number 3? 14 A. That's me, I guess, I must have asked them to 15 circulate it and then send it back to me. 16 Q. What are the initials you have after your name? 17 A. GO, general office. 18 Q. Can you read that sentence to us. 19 A. If we decide to do the recovery at WGK instead of 20 Findett WGK lab would handle this rather than JFQ. 21 Q. So, in other words, was JFQ, that stands for 22 Queeny, doesn't it? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. That was doing the lab work if the -- if the 25 recovery was done at Findett, correct? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061010 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 26 1 A. That's right. 2 Q. And it -- because if it was going to go to 3 Krummich, Krummich lab would do it? 4 A. That's right. 5 Q. As a person in your position at that time in 6 1970, let me ask you, was this when you were working at 7 Queeny -- this was not when you were general 8 superintendent, technical services, this was when you were 9 the manufacturing manager at -- at headquarters, correct? 10 A. Yes, but just shortly after I made that move. 11 Q. You were making the decision then that -- about 12 which laboratory would -- would be handling this, correct? 13 A. Well, a decision as I recall had to do with where 14 this step would be done and the question of the laboratory 15 that would do the analysis would depend on where the 16 processing was done. 17 Q. All right. Now, looking at the document that Mr. 18 Stark wrote, would the analysis be done prior to the 19 substance being recovered or after the substance was 20 recovered? 21 A. Well, just reading the memo now, Lou was asking 22 that the laboratories, whichever laboratory was involved, 23 would analyze fluid coming back from some customer before 24 it was used in a blend to determine whether it was suitable 25 for use in a blend. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061011 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 27 1 Q. Well, now, the blending would be done here as I 2 understand it, going through it, manufacturing central 3 liquid handling was at Queeny, correct? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. And R. Wagner was at Queeny? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. A-lab was at Queeny? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. Now, where was the electric fluid production 10 group? 11 A. Electrical fluids were produced at either 12 Anniston or Krummich. 13 Q. All right, and manufacturing, was that part of 14 that title -- I'm looking in the first? 15 A. Excuse me, electric fluid product group. 16 Q. And manufacturing? 17 A. Electric fluid product group refers to the 18 marketing people involved in electrical fluids. 19 Q. And electrical fluids? 20 A. PROD in this context refers to the product group 21 not production. *' . 22 Q. Okay. So where would they be? 23 A. At the general office. 24 Q. And manufacturing, is that part of that title or 25 is that a separate? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061012 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 28 1 A. No, that's separate. 2 Q. Where was that? 3 A. Well, manufacturing in this context refers to the 4 people doing the production of the blends so that in this 5 context I think means Queeny. 6 Q. All right, and manufacturing last sentence 7 paragraph, MPG.-CLH. 8 A. I'm sorry. 9 Q. Last sentence, second paragraph there. 10 A. Oh, CLH, yes, that's central liquids handling 11 which I guess was the formal name for which we call central 12 drumming. 13 Q. That was at Queeny? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. In going over this then, a customer would send 16 substance -- contaminated substance to Pindett, correct? 17 MR. CARNEY: Let me object. Are you saying is 18 that what happened? 19 Q. Is that what this memo reflects? 20 MR. CARNEY: I would reflect to -- this may be 21 calling the witness to speculate as to what Mr. Stark had 22 in mind and you just spent yesterday and the morning asking 23 Mr. Stark about this very memo and he told you what he 24 thought so I don't know that it adds to have this witness 25 speculate on what Mr. Stark meant. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061013 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 29 1 MS. DeSTEIN: I believe the memo is addressed to 2 Mr. Savage. Mr. Savage's understanding of the memo is very 3 relevant. 4 THE WITNESS: Well, the difficulty in 5 understanding it is to place things at the proper point in 6 time. That's the hardest thing to remember over such a 7 long period of time is what the sequence of events might 8 have been. At some point we did take back material from 9 primarily electrical customers for use in -- in Pydrauls. 10 The reason for doing that was simply that they would have 11 material which was no longer satisfactory for the extremely 12 difficult electrical specifications but might be perfectly 13 okay for a less demanding application like Pydraul. At 14 some point in time, we did that, but whether we were doing 15 it as early as 1970, I don't know. 16 Q. All right. Tell me how it would be done. 17 A. Well, the -- the shipment back from -- from 18 customers, analyze to determine whether it had been 19 contaminated in some surprising or unusual way, and if not, 20 then use it in Pydraul. That practice only existed for a 21 short period of time because the Aroclors were removed from 22 the Pydraul blends sometime fairly early in this period 23 1970, 1975. 24 Q. All right. Where would the substance actually be 25 shipped from the customer, the tank car or the drums? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061014 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 30 1 A. I'm not sure. 2 Q. Do you recall who would pay for the shipping? 3 A. I have no idea, I wouldn't have been involved in 4 that. 5 Q. At some point, would it have ended up at Queeny, 6 possibly, looking at this? 7 A. Well, if it was accepted for use in a Pydraul 8 blend. 9 Q. It would have ended up at Queeny? 10 A. Assuming it was a Pydraul blend that was made at 11 Queeny, not all of the Pydrauls were made at Queeny, most 12 of them were. 13 Q. If it was made at Queeny it would end up at 14 Queeny to be blended, right? 15 Q. Would the contaminated substance be shipped 16 directly to Queeny? 17 A. I don't know. I don't remember. 18 Q. Does -- does this document indicate that it would 19 be shipped directly to Queeny? 20 A. Well, the only clue is the use of the expression 21 CLH and A-lab at the end of the second paragraph. Those 22 are Queeny plant terms. 23 Q. Right. Well, Findett is thrown in on there on 24 each one of these? 25 A. Right. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061015 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 31 1 Q. 1, 2 and 3, and then if you look at the next 2 page, in the middle of the column -- middle of the page of 3 the writing which would be the third paragraph, it says we 4 will communicate these results and recommendations for 5 fluid disposition to both Findett and Dick Wagner at 6 central liquids handling. I would expect Dick or whoever 7 has responsibility for incoming shipments at Queeny to let 8 Findett know when to ship. So doesn't that indicate that 9 the shipments were going from Findett to Queeny? 10 MR. CARNEY: Let me object. I think you're 11 mischaracterizing the memo. If you're asking him what 12 actually took place, I think this memo is a recommendation 13 of how it should be done by Mr. Stark. I'm not sure that 14 it's spelling out a procedure that's in place. 15 Q. All right. Is that what you understand that the 16 procedure -- the procedure that was being suggested in this 17 memo? 18 A. I can't really remember any actual Findett role 19 in this procedure that you described. 20 Q. Okay. Is that what the memo reflects, though, 21 that is being suggested here? 22 A. Well, there's certainly an implication that the 23 product stops at Findett on the way to Queeny, but for what 24 purpose I don't know and I don't remember ever having been 25 involved in that kind of a question. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061016 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 32 1 Q. What were you being asked to do with this memo? 2 MR. CARNEY: I'm going to object again. I think 3 the document speaks for itself. 4 Q. You can answer the question. 5 A. Well, when Lou says he's trying to get research 6 out of the procedure, he simply means that research should 7 not be part of the routine of an operation that -- that 8 should be able to go on in -- in the rest of the 9 organization. 10 Q. So, in other words, Mr. Stark here is asking to 11 be removed because he worked for research, correct? 12 A. Mr. Stark was in research, still is, yes. 13 Q. He's explaining a procedure that he's 14 recommending to get his unit or his group out of this loop, 15 would that be fair? 16 A. Yes, he wants to become removed from the routine. 17 Q. And you're integral to the routine apparently, is 18 that correct? 19 A. Yes, but newly integral to it. This is a very 20 short time after I joined the group. 21 Q. As a result of this memo, what type of a decision 22 did you make? 23 A. I don't remember. 24 Q. You don't remember whether or not any of this was 25 ever done? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061017 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 33 1 A. No. I can't say with confidence that we ever did 2 any of this. 3 Q. Do you remember whether or not research was 4 removed as per the memo? 5 A. I don't think so. It was a very turbulent time 6 when the whole team was working together on alot of 7 different things having to do with PCB issues. 8 Q. When you say turbulent, why? 9 A. It was just a very, very, very busy time. The 10 issues having to do with PCB were a subject that was in the 11 press and we were trying to find a responsible course of 12 action to deal with the very complicated set of problems. 13 Q. Is this the time -- the point in time in April of 14 1970 that environmental concerns were being voiced and 15 certain government agencies might have been concerned about 16 the disposal control of PCB's? 17 A. Again, to say exactly how we felt in April of 18 1970 is something I can't do, I can't remember that well, 19 but we had a whole series of actions to take out related to 20 the product lines that contained PCB's and Mr. Stark was a 21 -- a very important part of -- of the -- all of those 22 actions that had to do with the hydraulic fluids. 23 Q. When did Monsanto install its incinerator at 24 Krummich? 25 A. I can't say, it was during the time I was RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061018 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 34 1 manufacturing manager but I can't tell you the year. 2 Q. So sometime in the period of '70 to '75? 3 A. Wellf later than 1970 certainly because I 4 participated in -- in getting the appropriation approved. 5 Q. How was Monsanto disposing PCB's prior to that? 6 A. By landfill. 7 Q. I'd like to show you what's been previously 8 marked as Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 25, Mexico 673 9 through 680, and ask you to look at that. I think if we 10 start at 678 we would -- that that's where we should start 11 on this, so let's go ahead and start. This is a memo 12 written by you, correct, Mr. Savage? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. I'm just giving you an opportunity to look at it. 15 You've had an opportunity to review it. 16 A. Right. 17 Q. All right, and it's on Monsanto letterhead dated 18 April 2nd, 1970, to Mr. -- Mr. is it -- 19 A. Bergen. 20 Q. Mr. Bergen in the general office it was your 21 earlier testimony that at this period of time Mr. Bergen 22 was your boss, correct? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. Now, would you tell us in your own terms what 25 this memo's all about. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061019 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 35 1 A. Well, it has to do with -- with dealing with 2 Aroclor return from customers. As I mentioned earlier, my 3 recollection is that this return material generally 4 referred to material coming from the electrical equipment 5 manufacturers who would have contaminated to the point that 6 it was not usable in electrical equipment but had potential 7 for use in some less demanding application. This describes 8 a procedure for dealing with that material which is usable 9 in that way and also about what we might do with material 10 that's not usable. 11 Q. All right. At this time was all of the 12 reprocessing of this material being done at Findett? 13 A. I don't think so from the context of this memo, 14 it doesn't sound like it's yet a fact. 15 Q. All right. 16 A. That's being done at all. 17 Q. Okay. If reprocessing were being done at that 18 time -- if reprocessing were being done at that time, would 19 it have been done at the Krummich plant? 20 A. I don't know, I don't think so. 21 Q. Would it have been done at the Queeny plant? 22 A. No. 23 Q. In fact, in this memo, aren't you considering a 24 point going into the business of doing that rather than 25 sending it to Findett? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061020 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 36 1 A. Yes, I'm proposing that the practice be adopted 2 to the Krummich plant for reprocessing if necessary. 3 Q. To see whether or not you could reclaim at 4 Krummich cheaper than Findett could reclaim, correct? 5 A. There's nothing here that makes me think I was 6 trying to decide the cheapest place to do it. It appears 7 we had a cost estimate from Krummich. 8 Q. Okay, number 4, WFK meaning Krummich will provide 9 by May 1 capital and production costs estimates for 10 reclaiming in department 246 to determine whether some 11 kinds of reclaiming might be done there more cheaply than 12 at Findett. 13 A. Yeah, okay, that does sound like I was making a 14 cost comparison. 15 Q. Now, on page 2, you have on acceptance disposal 16 of drum quantities of Askarel. Does that contain PCB? 17 A. Yes, Askarel was a generic name for PCB's with 18 chlorobenzenes. 19 Q. All right, and what -- what do you mean in the 20 last paragraph of your memo? 21 A. I was raising the question disposal of large 22 quantities of Aroclor and suggesting that we would have to 23 install an incinerator. 24 Q. And, in fact, later on you did install an 25 incinerator, correct? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061021 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 37 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And you believed at that time according to this 3 memo when you wrote the memo that the effect of actually 4 going forward with the plan that you outlined that would 5 establish a policy of willingness to accept responsibility 6 for any Aroclor Monsanto ever made, correct? 7 A. Well, I don't remember the context of what I'm 8 saying here. Reading the sentence, it sounds like a 9 speculation, if we take these actions we will have 10 demonstrated that we're willing to accept any Aroclor we 11 ever made. 12 Q. As a manufacturing manager wasn't one of your 13 duties to look out for the well-being of the company and 14 you're -- you're just pointing out something that you see 15 here, is that correct? 16 A. Yeah, I was pointing out the consequences of the 17 actions that were taken at the time, what I thought would 18 be the consequences. 19 Q. You didn't have a crystal ball at that time, did 20 you? All right. 21 A. Don't have one now. 22 Q. On page 680, summary of Aroclor rework, is that 23 your handwriting at the bottom? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Once again you're dealing here in -- in figures RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061022 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 38 1 and costing, correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Now, going back to the notes that were attached 4 at the beginning and :-- can you make some sense out of 5 this? It appears to be a series of notes from Mr. Bergen 6 and then you have a note and then Mr. Bergen has a note. 7 Can you put them in order for us in terms of time. Let me 8 make a suggestion, if you go to 677? 9 A. That appears to be the first one in the sequence 10 of buck slips. 11 Q. And he's referring right to that paragraph 4 that 12 we spent sometime on where you had made the statement about 13 whether or not Krummich could perform certain recovery 14 cheaper than Findett, correct? 15 A. Yes. Howard's first note to me seems to be 16 asking is Krummich the place where I got that information, 17 and I answered yes. 18 Q. Okay, and the next note which would be 676. 19 A. Yeah, that seems to be a reply to my first reply. 20 Q. All right, and -- and what he's -- what do you 21 think he's asking you for here? 22 A. Well, he's asking 2 questions, he's asking me for 23 a comparison with Findett and then some -- some 24 recommendation on pricing to customers. 25 Q. And then the next note of 675 is yours, is that RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061023 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 39 1 right? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. Now, when was this? What is attached, if you 4 recall? 5 A. No, I can't -- I can 't tell. 6 Q. And then if we look at 673 and 674, what -- 7 what's going on here? 8 A. Well, Howard says okay the CMC has approved our 9 plan. The CMC was a very high level decision making body 10 in the corporation at the time stood for something like 11 corporate management committee. 12 Q. So, in other words, what plan have they approved? 13 A. From the context it sounds like they approved the 14 procedure of taking back material from customers. 15 Q. Do you in fact know that that was ever done the 16 way it's outlined in your memo? 17 A. I can't say for sure. 18 Q. What does B say there, our alternatives, and then 19 paren, Findett, is that are not cheaper? 20 A. Well, it -- if -- that's a subquestion under item 21 2 that we need to be sure our alternatives, paren, Findett, 22 are not cheaper. So, it appears that we rejected a Findett 23 alternative at that point. 24 Q. All right. Up until that point, was any work 25 like this being done? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061024 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 40 1 A. I don't know. 2 (A noon recess was taken.) 3 MS. DeSTEIN: Back from lunch, everyone's 4 present, back from lunch, everybody is present kept Kevin 5 Hamlet and you believe he's gone back to Mexico. 6 Q. (By Ms. DeStein) I'll show you what's been 7 marked as Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 26, Mexico 682, 8 683, 685 -- 684 is on the back, 683. 9 MR. CARNEY: I don't know if that's Mexico or -- 10 MS. DeSTEIN: Mex 684. 11 MR. CARNEY: You've been assuming that's Mexico. 12 I'm thinking it could be Monsanto Exhibit, I don't know. 13 MS. DeSTEIN: We use -- in the justice department 14 we use Mex, I'm just assuming it was -- 15 MR. CARNEY: It may well be I just didn't ask 16 anybody what MEX stands for. 17 THE WITNESS: Didn't we have a copy of this 18 before? 19 MS. DeSTEIN: You're right. I'm sorry, you're 20 absolutely right. This has been underlined. 21 Q. (By Ms. DeStein) Let's keep that on there, 26. 22 It is the same as we had prior as a part of Mexico -- Mex 23 Plaintiff's Deposition 25. There's writing, though, on 24 this -- on this. We've got a telephone number here, looks 25 like -- it says present cost center. Do you know who wrote RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061025 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 41 1 this, and then there is also an additional page here with 2 written notes on page 685. Do you know who wrote that? 3 A. Looks like Art Koenig. 4 Q. Who is Art Koenig? 5 A. Accountant for our business group. 6 Q. Was he the person you were referring to earlier 7 that Milt Tegethoff might have had a close association 8 with? 9 A. Oh, no. 10 Q. Okay. Would it -- do you know what he's doing 11 here? Can you decipher these numbers and notes? 12 A. Oh, Art's just trying to work out the accounting 13 trial to take care of credits, costs and so forth. 14 Q. Okay. Is he trying to figure out here if it 15 would be cheaper for Krummich to do what Findett's 16 currently doing? 17 A. No, he's just trying to make sure that the costs 18 flow in the proper fashion. 19 Q. With the process as described in the memo? 20 MR. CARNEY: I'll object that this calls for this 21 witness to speculate about what somebody else was doing. 22 Q. If you can tell from the notes. 23 A. Well, if it really is Art Koenig's handwriting 24 and I believe it is, he has underlined the sentence that 25 says what he's supposed to do so I presume that this RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061026 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 42 1 represents him doing that. 2 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'd like to show you what's 3 been previously marked as Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 15 4 and ask you to take a look at this. 5 A. That's kind of hard to read. 6 Q. Can you make it out? 7 A. Yes, I think so. 8 Q. All right. This is a letter dated August 7th 9 with the title Findett-scrap disposal from -- is it D.A. 10 Olson? 11 A. Yeah, that's Don Olson who is the director of -- 12 of sales at the time of marketing. 13 Q. And he's writing to you, is that correct? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. Do you remember this letter? 16 A. No. I certainly don't remember the memo. 17 Q. It is addressed to you? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. Seeing it, does it -- does it reflect your 20 recollection as to what was going on at the period of time 21 of August 7, 1970, with respect to the contents of the 22 letter? 23 A. No. It sounds plausible but it doesn't bring 24 back anything in particular. 25 Q. Okay. It states in here that -- it says RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061027 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 43 1 yesterday we met with Bill Corlew -- 2 A. Corlew. 3 Q. Corlew and others from Krummich to evolve proper 4 policies and procedures on Aroclor return for reclamation 5 and for incineration. Krummich installed its incinerator 6 by this time? 7 A. I don't think so, but from the contents of the 8 memo it's clear by then we had decided to put one in. 9 Q. It says one area left unresolved relates to 10 Findett, in their work for us generates considerable scrap 11 100 drums so far which needs to be burned. On this 12 material, we should take back the scrap at no cost to 13 Findett. You were involved with policy in terms of what 14 would be charged to Findett or in determines of 15 incineration or possible disposal? 16 A. Well, my responsibility was to get the 17 incinerator installed and also to control the costs 18 involved in that and from that standpoint I had recommended 19 a pricing policy for what we should charge people for 20 incineration. This memo -- I don't think this memo 21 mentions the figure, actually it turned out that the 22 incineration costs about 3 times the amount. 23 Q. Well, it doesn't mention a figure here, but it 24 does mention that -- it says however Findett also does 25 reclamation for other customers and I assume scrap will be RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061028 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 44 1 generated here also in these cases or in those cases 2 Findett should pay the same costs as other customers, 3 freight plus 3 cents per pound. 4 A. Oh, okay, right. 5 Q. So there is a cost figure in there. 6 A. Right, right. 7 Q. At 3 cents and you're saying it ended up to be 9 8 cents? 9 A. 9 or 10, yeah. 10 Q. But you would charge customers 9 cents then a 11 pound or at least a figure? 12 A. I -- yeah, I don't remember. The idea was to 13 recover costs and costs turned out to be a lot higher than 14 we thought it to be. 15 Q. If you had sold PCB containing material or 16 Aroclor 1242 to -- let's say a bakery and you were taking 17 it back for incineration would it cost that customer a -- 18 would you charge them a fee to incinerate it at Krummich? 19 A. What I remember is that we did charge them a fee, 20 not -- I was not involved in any of the billing or 21 anything. So I -- I can't say from personal experience 22 what we charged them or how we handled that. 23 Q. But you were involved in the decision-making 24 process of the costing of these thing? 25 A. Oh, yeah, yeah. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061029 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 45 1 Q. So you would know whether or not you were going 2 to be charging a fee to a customer? 3 A. Well, I can remember what I recommended but what 4 we really did, I don't know for sure. 5 Q. You never followed up on that? 6 A. No, that would be somebody else's responsibility, 7 that would be somebody in marketing, somebody in 8 accounting. 9 Q. Does Monsanto kind of run like the post office, 10 like they have the in book and the out book and never the 11 twain shall meet? 12 MR. CARNEY: I object to the form of the 13 question. 14 A. Oh, no. 15 MS. DeSTEIN: I'll withdraw it. 16 Q. In the fourth paragraph he says we left it that 17 the policy would remain for Monsanto to take back all 18 material at no charge with us paying freight until you had 19 time to discuss with Findett and work out an arrangement 20 which allows them to pay for that portion which they 21 generate independently and then you said after this has 22 been -- this person, Don Olson, says after this has been 23 completed, Krummich should be notified of the revised 24 procedure. Did you in fact talk to Findett? 25 A. I don't remember. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061030 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 46 1 Q. Do you remember that Monsanto accepted scrap from 2 Findett and didn't pay anything -- that Findett didn't pay 3 anything for it like other customers? 4 A. Well, the point being made in the memo is that -- 5 is that some of that material is really ours and that we 6 would take back obviously without charging. 7 Q. In fact the memo indicates you took it all back 8 at that point until you, Mr. Savage, had an opportunity to 9 find out what shouldn't -- what Findett should pay for it, 10 correct? 11 A. I don't -- 12 MR. CARNEY: Let me object to the question. I 13 don't know what you mean by took it all back. Are you 14 talking about what's mentioned in here? I don't know what 15 it means. 16 Q. It says here we left it, that's -- that the 17 policy would remain for Monsanto to take back all material 18 at no charge. Now, this is directed at Mr. Savage and the 19 policy right now, he's very concerned about costs and how 20 much things are going to cost, that's his decision we've 21 seen in the other documents. So I believe it's germane to 22 know that the policy now is to take back all scrap, is that 23 right? 24 MR. CARNEY: Same objection. 25 Q. At no charge to Findett, is that what was going RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061031 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 47 1 on then? 2 A. I really don't know any more about this subject 3 than what I have just read in this memo. I don't remember 4 it. 5 Q. And you don't remember whether or not you talked 6 to Findett and found out if they had any other customers as 7 this directs you to do? 8 A. I don't remember. 9 Q. But it's clear that at this point Monsanto's 10 taking it all back -- 11 MR. CARNEY: I'm going to object. 12 Q. -- for free? 13 MR. CARNEY: I'm going to object to that. I 14 think the document speaks for itself and you're asking this 15 witness to speculate about what somebody else meant back in 16 August of 1970 and he's already indicated he doesn't 17 remember anything more than the words that are on that 18 paper. 19 Q. This was a hot topic, wasn't it, Mr. Savage, at 20 this time? You testified to that already that in April in 21 '70 it was turbulent was your word? 22 MR. CARNEY: Objection as to the form. Contains 23 undefined terms as vague. 24 Q. Was it turbulent -- did you use that term before? 25 A. Yes. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061032 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 48 1 MR. CARNEY: I don't know what it -- what is it? 2 MS. DeSTEIN: What is it? 3 MR. CARNEY: Uh-huh. 4 MS. DeSTEIN: It is all of the information 5 surrounding PCB's and PCB disposal. 6 Q. (By Ms. DeStein) It was turbulent? 7 A. Sure, there was alot going on. This was one of 8 many things we were doing in parallel. 9 Q. All right, and you don't remember ever finding 10 out that the Findett was shipping to Monsanto under this 11 policy of not having to pay anything, was shipping other 12 people's scrap, did you? 13 A. I don't remember. 14 Q. You never sued Findett or were involved in a 15 lawsuit against Findett for Findett trying to slip one over 16 on you? 17 A. I was never involved in anything like that. 18 Q. In fact, you, personally, never found out that 19 Findett was doing anything improper when it came to 20 Findett's relationship with Monsanto, correct? 21 MR. CARNEY: Object to that. I don't know what 22 you mean by improper. The question is vague and ambiguous, 23 until you define terms. 24 Q. Did you ever find out that Monsanto was shipping 25 material to Monsanto for disposal at Krummich that it RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061033 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 49 1 should not have shipped to Monsanto or that it should have 2 paid for? 3 MR. CARNEY: I'll object to that question. It's 4 unintelligible. 5 MS. DeSTEIN: I don't believe so. Read it back. 6 MR. CARNEY: You may have misstated but as posed, 7 I don't understand it. 8 MS. DeSTEIN: Read it back. 9 (The reporter read the requested 10 material.) 11 Q. (By Ms. DeStein) That Pindett was shipping 12 material to Monsanto incorrectly? 13 MR. CARNEY: I'm going to object to that because 14 the question contains undefined terms, I don't know what 15 you mean by incorrectly. 16 Q. That they were shipping material to Monsanto -- 17 that Findett was shipping material to Monsanto that did not 18 in fact belong to Monsanto? 19 A. I don't -- I don't know. We were receiving 20 material from many, many places and the accounting for who 21 shipped it and whether they owed us money are not -- was -- 22 was not part of my responsibility. 23 Q. How many places did you receive material from 24 that you incinerated for free? 25 A. For free? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061034 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 50 1 Q. For free. 2 A. None that I know of. 3 Q. Other than Findett? 4 A. I don't know that. 5 Q. Is that -- but the letter reflects the policy at 6 least at this time? 7 A. The letter reflects such a policy, that's right. 8 (Plaintiff's Exhibits 24 through 28 were 9 marked for identification.) 10 Q. All right. I'd like to show you what's been 11 previously marked as Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit Number 12 24. That's Mex 071 through 075. I'd also like to 13 introduce into evidence Plaintiff's Exhibit 28 which will 14 be Mex 444 and if you'll look at Mex 073, I think you'll 15 see that Mex 444 is a legible copy of that. 16 A. Yeah, appears to be the same. 17 Q. Can you tell us what's going on here with this? 18 Let's start with 074, that's a letter to Mr. Tegethoff 19 dated November 25th, 1970, from Don Roush, is that correct? 20 A. Right. 21 Q. And you've been blindly copied on this along with 22 a Mr. Corlew, correct? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. Among others? 25 A. Now I remember who Don Roush is, he was a guy in RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061035 _________________________ COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION ______________51 1 marketing. 2 Q. Okay. I believe you did know that he worked 3 there but you aren't -- 4 A. Yeah, yeah. 5 Q. Okay. This letter it would appear that -- that a 6 certain amount of fluid was going to go from Findett to 7 Krummich, is that right? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. And down at the bottom of the page, it says the 10 normal charge for fluid disposal will not apply to this 11 quantity of used Therminol from blank, correct? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. And he also -- the last sentence reveals that I 14 know you'll be pleased to gain use of your storage tank 15 after 2 years. 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Was that something that -- that to your knowledge 18 that Findett did was store material for Monsanto or 19 Monsanto's customers? 20 A. This refers to used Therminol FR-1 which was the 21 name given to Aroclor 1242 when it was used for heat 22 transfer. So it was coming back from customers as used 23 FR-1. I suppose it was a candidate for reclaiming, but I'm 24 just inferring it that from the letter. 25 Q. There's a separate note here to the blind RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061036 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 52 1 copiers, copiees, whatever, of which you were one. There's 2 nothing in here that's directly directed specifically to 3 you. It would seem that Don Roush is directing something 4 specifically to Bill Corlew or to Ron Kuster. Why would 5 you have been copied on this? 6 MR. CARNEY; I'm going to object to that. That 7 would ask this witness to speculate what was inside the 8 mind of the writer of the letter. 9 Q. What did you do as a result of receiving this 10 letter? 11 A. I have no idea. 12 Q. Okay. I realize that it's speculation but can 13 you tell us because of where you were in the chain of 14 command why you would have received this? 15 A. Well, Bill Corlew was the manufacturing 16 superintendent. He had kind of a dotted line 17 responsibility to me. 18 Q. When you say dotted line, in other words, he 19 answered to you in some respect? 20 A. Right. 21 Q. So he's being asked here to analyze the fluid to 22 see if it was recoverable, correct? 23 k A. No, Ron Kuster was being asked to analyze it, he 24 was the laboratory supervisor. 25 Q. What's Bill Corlew going to do, he's going to -- RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061037 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 53 1 A. Well, Roush is asking Corlew to use Kuster's 2 results to make some kind of a decision about what to do 3 with the fluid. 4 Q. And apparently it would seem that Roush and 5 Corlew had spoken on the phone the day prior to the writing 6 of this letter, that's what it says down here in the last 7 sentence of the bcc. It says if recoverable please arrange 8 tank trailer pick-up per our conversation of 11-24-70. 9 A. Oh, okay, okay. 10 Q. Okay? 11 A. Well, I can read it. 12 Q. Yeah, all right. Now, on the day before Bill 13 Corlew apparently made a -- some notes on a Monsanto 14 rapid-gram. What were rapid-grams used for at Monsanto? 15 A. Oh, just a little note pad. 16 Q. So, he's writing here to a -- an R. McCutchan and 17 J. Littich, R. Kuster and D. Mayer/Trittler. Who are those 18 people? 19 A. McCutchan worked for Corlew and ran the Aroclor 20 department. Littich -- John Littich was a plant 21 accountant, Ron Kuster was the lab supervisor, Don Mayer 22 worked in traffic shipping at Krummich plant and I think 23 Trittler worked for them. 24 Q. Okay. Now, he says, you know, this -- this -- he 25 refers to Don Roush saying that Don Roush says that Findett RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061038 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 54 1 has 4-4 drums plus 3,400 bulk gallons used FR-1. The stuff 2 ain't too good. Acidity .6, iron 25 parts per million, and 3 then high boiler with a 15 percent after it. 4 A. Well, that ain't too good, all right. 5 Q. How -- how -- now, Ron Kuster was the lab person, 6 right? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. Ron Kuster hadn't gotten ahold of this stuff, had 9 he? In other words, where did -- where did these figures 10 come from, if you know, or if you could speculate about 11 where it could have come from because apparently the drums 12 haven't been sent yet? 13 A. Well, perhaps not, a sample could have come, I 14 don't know. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. It's possible that Findett might have done an 17 analysis but I don't think they ever had much of a 18 laboratory. 19 Q. What does the term drum-off mean? 20 A. It means to take bulk material and put it in 21 drums. , 22 Q. Okay. Now, going to pages 71 and 72 the title of 23 each of these documents is Monsanto laboratory analysis 24 report, company, confidential, and if we go to 72 first, I 25 don't know, can you read the date there? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061039 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 55 1 A. It appears to be in November of 1970, perhaps the 2 25th. 3 Q. That's the way I read it as well. All right. If 4 we -- if we take it that -- now, where were these analysis 5 reports done? 6 A. This is a -- I think this is a Krumraich ticket. 7 Q. Is there any particular way you know that? 8 A. D.A. 11 dot 11 looks like a Krummich department 9 number. 10 Q. Can you tell from this, I understand that it's 11 not that clear but the -- the 11-25-70 date is the sampling 12 date, is that right? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. Can you tell from here, and I realize it's not a 15 very clear copy, can you tell who did the sampling or would 16 that be on there? 17 A. Well, you can only deduce -- normally -- normally 18 these tickets are used for internal plant samples but can 19 also be used for material coming from outside. Under tank 20 number, it says FSC, I guess that could stand for Findett 21 Service Company. 22 Q. So Findett would have done this? 23 A. That sounds logical. 24 Q. Would Monsanto have provided Findett with these 25 forms so that Findett would just fill them out? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061040 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 56 1 A. Oh, I don't think so. 2 Q. Okay. So who would have actually done the 3 sampling? 4 A. I don11 know who would have taken the sample. 5 Q. It would have been a Monsanto employee? 6 A. Not necessarily. If the sample came from 7 Findett, perhaps Findett took the sample. 8 Q. Okay. But a Monsanto employee filled this out? 9 A. Ordinarily, the ticket like this would be filled 10 out by the analyst who actually did the work and that would 11 be at the Krummich plant. 12 Q. What is that the -- can you tell us what the 13 results here were? 14 A. Most of it's not really legible. The one thing 15 is clear, 2 things, lower boiler is .66 percent, that 16 implies contamination with moisture or something, something 17 -- something with a lower boiling point than Aroclor. It 18 says peak on low side of B something, that's a little more 19 hard to say, but peak probably means almost certainly -- 20 means that they ran a -- a test on an analytical instrument 21 called a, chromatograph and the peak means that the peak is 22 drawn on the chart by that instrument. So a peak on the 23 low side would be a way of describing the low boilers. 24 Q. Okay. What -- in layman's terms, terms that a 25 Bachelor of Arts person could understand, would that mean RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061041 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 57 1 that it is -- it's certainly not pure Aroclor? 2 A. It's not new product by any means. 3 Q. It's used? 4 A. It's used and it has something in it that would 5 not be present in new product. 6 Q. Would that be true if the product had been 7 reclaimed? 8 A. No, if it had been successfully reclaimed, that 9 would no longer be there. 10 Q. Okay. Now, on the ticket 071, that's an 11 identical form, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. But there's different information on it? 14 A. It's easier to read, too. 15 Q. Yes. The sampling date was December 15th of '70, 16 and the material is Therminol FR-1 and then it says 17 reclaimed, correct? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. And a report of this is goihg to Kuster and one 20 to Roth? 21 A. Yeah, I don't know who Roth was. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. Kuster was the lab supervisor at that section. 24 Q. That's at Krummich? 25 A. Right. ................................................................................................................................................. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061042 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 58 1 Q. Can you again possibly make out what the results 2 are here? 3 A. Well, I can read alot of it, but it doesn't mean 4 too much to me. 5 Q. But we still have the low boilers, right, the 6 peak on the low side of -- 7 A. Yeah, now I can read peak on low side of 8 biphenyl. Ordinarily biphenyl would be the lowest peak on 9 the -- on the chromatogram of material like that. 10 Q. In other words, a chromatogram is drawn with 11 peaks and like say Aroclor 1242 where the peaks are pretty 12 high at the beginning and then they kind of -- they kind of 13 go -- are shorter. 14 A. Well, Aroclor is a very complex material with all 15 kinds of things in it, different homologs of chlorinated 16 biphenyl, but when they say a peak on the low side of 17 biphenyl that means something that is considerably lighter, 18 probably a smaller molecule than any of the ordinarily 19 appearing materials. So it still says it's got something 20 in it that is different than new product. 21 Q. I'11 show you what's been marked as Plaintiff's 22 Deposition Exhibit 27, please, it's Mex 313 and 314. Okay. 23 You've had a chance to look at that. This is -- is a 24 Monsanto memo from John Littich and B.W. Corlew dated 25 September 10th, 1970, to Mr. Olson? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061043 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 59 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. That's Mr. Don Olson the man we've been 3 discussing? 4 A. Yeah, I think so. 5 Q. On other documents. Okay. You are one of the 5 6 people carboned on this, correct? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. And it's -- so that -- apparently Aroclor is 9 being returned to Krummich for incineration, is that right? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. So had the incinerator been installed at this 12 point? 13 A. I don't think so. 14 Q. But it was just coming in to be later 15 incinerated? 16 A. Right, we had agreed to take material from 17 customers and there was alot of stuff stockpiled before the 18 incinerator was ready to run. 19 Q. Okay. Now, it says here in a paren, we are aware 20 that Findett is not to be billed, is that right? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. Then if we look at the attachment -- now, let me 23 just explain, Mr. Savage, that our agreement with Monsanto, 24 our being the United States Government under this 25 designation, our agreement with Monsanto at this time we RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061044 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 60 1 are willing -- we are willing to have Monsanto black-out 2 the name of its customers other than Findett so that's why 3 you see some blackout on these pages. I imagine Mr. Carney 4 has explained that to you, but there are 2 entries here for 5 Findett, waste fluids from GE and Westinghouse and Aroclor 6 waste from GE and Westinghouse and we have a considerable 7 amount of -- the weight is in pounds, correct? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. Okay. So we have over 50,000 pounds? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. Of Aroclor, right? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. Now, when it says from GE and Westinghouse, it's 14 coming from Findett, right? 15 A. Well, Findett is listed in the customer column, 16 GE and Westinghouse are just noted parenthetically. It 17 sounds like it originally came from there. 18 Q. GE and Westinghouse, then Findett and then to 19 Krummich? 20 A. Right. 21 Q. I'd like to show you what's been marked as 22 Government Exhibit 29, it's Mex 473, 474, 475, 476 and 477. 23 (Plaintiff's Exhibit Numbers 29 and 30 24 were marked for identification.) 25 Q. Have you had a chance to look at that? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061045 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 61 1 A. Right. 2 Q. The note -- this is first of all a -- a memo, is 3 it not true, Monsanto letterhead from G.E. Gibson, general 4 office, and general offices January 20th, 1971, the subject 5 is marketing services procedure number 303, reference 6 incineration or reclamation of Aroclors, lead -- it's to 7 lead correspondence, sales service supervisors. You are 8 not listed on here in the typed portion, are you? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. But the body says attached is a procedure 11 covering the practice recently established to the return of 12 PCB Aroclors, signed George Gibson, and there is 13 handwriting on here which has your name. 14 A. Right. 15 Q. Do you though who wrote this? 16 A. Well, looking at the carbonees up in the upper 17 right, Bill Corlew's name appears to have been highlighted 18 so I guess it came from him. 19 Q. Okay, and -- and you were working in the general 20 offices at this time, right? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. Okay. Were you -- oh, yeah, '71, excuse me. 23 All right. Now, in going through the 24 incineration or reclamation of Aroclors did you have 25 anything to do with this document or its development? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061046 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 62 1 A. I don't think, I don't remember. 2 Q. All right. Let me ask you this. Was Monsanto 3 watching the cost on this incineration pretty carefully? 4 A. Well, it was -- yeah, that was part of my 5 responsibility. 6 Q. Okay. So, in other words, this 3 cents per 7 pound, that was something you watched with pretty great 8 care? 9 A. 3 cents was my original estimate of what the cost 10 was going to be. 11 Q. Is this 3 cents reflected in this document your 3 12 cents? 13 A. It's all of our 3 cents I suppose. It originated 14 from my cost estimate, I think. 15 Q. Okay. Now I'd like to show you Plaintiff's 16 Exhibit 30 and that's Mex 549, 550, 551, 552 and 553, and 17 if -- if you will, but for some handwritten notes, I 18 believe it's identical to the document that you have. 19 A. Appears to be. 20 Q. That's 29. Okay. Up at the top, righthand 21 corner, it says Charm, C-H-A-R-M, or Charm, for your files, 22 do you know who C. Harm or Charm, who this person is? 23 A. No, I don't. 24 Q. If we go into the document on page 550, IB, we 25 see handwritten notes here changing the 3 cents to 5 cents RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061047 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 63 1 per pound plus 8 dollars each and then I don't know what 2 that says, handling charge? 3 A. Each drum, PR. 4 Q. Is that your handwriting? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you know whose handwriting that is? 7 A. No, I don't recognize it. 8 Q. All right. If we go to page 2, Bl. 9 A. Same change has been made, look like. 10 Q. Do you know -- also, if we go to page 3, they've 11 changed the address, not that that's important, I guess. 12 Do you know why they would have changed from 246 to 831? 13 A. 831 would be a service department whereas 246 is 14 a production department. So that suggests that the 15 department number had by then -- had been assigned to the 16 incinerator itself. 17 Q. I see. Was the incinerator in place at this 18 point? 19 A. Well, there's no indication of when this marking 20 was made on the -- on the earlier version of procedure 303. 21 So I don't think there's any -- anything here that tells 22 you when those changes are made. 23 Q. Right. Was it -- was the -- was the incinerator 24 in place as of January 13th, 1971? 25 A. I can't tell you. That's about when it started RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061048 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 64 1 up, but -- but I don't know. Clearly by then we were 2 looking at 5 cents a pound instead of 3 cents a pound which 3 suggested for some reason we knew by then it was going to 4 cost more than 3 cents a pound but I'm not sure that that 5 means that it was started up by then. 6 Q. You make a good point. I mean, this was written 7 apparently in January of '71 but we don't know when the 8 cent changes -- 9 A. Right. 10 Q. -- were made? It could have been made at a later 11 time? 12 A. I'm sure it was made later than the original 13 issue, but whether it was one day or one year, I have no 14 idea. 15 (Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 31 was 16 marked for identification.) 17 Q. I'll show you what I'm in the process of marking 18 as Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 31, take a look at it. 19 It's Mex 009. 20 A. Right. 21 Q. This is a letter on Findett Service Company's 22 letterhead from Mr. Milt Tegethoff to you dated April 7th, 23 1971, correct? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. Would you tell us, Mr. Savage, what is -- what RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061049 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 65 1 Mr. Tegethoff is -- what is he doing at this point? 2 MR. CARNEY: I'm going to object to -- to the 3 question because it calls for this witness to speculate as 4 to what Mr. Tegethoff was doing. You can answer, if you 5 can. 6 A. He's making a proposal to me for some special 7 kind of manufacturing run. 8 Q. Okay. Now, he has -- you have -- according to 9 this letter apparently had discussions about this, correct? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. And do you remember discussing these types of 12 situations with Mr. Tegethoff during this period of time? 13 A. The date doesn't mean anything in particular to 14 me, but -- but Findett made special manufacturing runs of 15 various kinds of products for us from time to time and this 16 is a promo as for one of those things. Most such things 17 had nothing to do with Aroclor. 18 Q. Okay. Here he says that we're continuing to 19 collect as per your discussions to collect and to quote 20 drain off, unquote, all of the 4-4 crystals from our MCS 21 236 drums. 22 A. Yeah, I can't say with any certainty what MCS 236 23 was. MCS was a code designation for a series of 24 experimental materials and those numbers go up 2,000. 25 Q. 4-4 crystals are PCB's, correct? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061050 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 66 1 A. There was -- there was a version of PCB where 4-4 2 prime chlorodiphenyl that was a -- that was an intermediate 3 for some kind of product we made. 4 MR. CARNEY: I think just for the record Mr. 5 Stark knows what MCS 256 is -- 6 MS. DeSTEIN: 236, and he also knew what 4-4 7 crystals, I just want to know what Mr. Savage knows. 8 Q. (By Ms. DeStein) He didn't discuss this with Mr. 9 Stark. Let me ask you, what is a drain off procedure? 10 A. Well, he speaks here of crude crystals and what 11 he's describing is a -- a process for recovering a crystal 12 and material from some kind of solution, it's simply a 13 separating or purifying technique obviously from the 14 context. The product still is a crude product. It's been 15 recovered from a larger amount of material from some other 16 material. 17 Q. Wouldthe remaining material have PCB's in it? 18 A. Well, if I knew for sure what MCS 236 is, I might 19 be able to answer that. I don't remember what 236 was. 20 Q. If I were to tell you that Mr. Stark said yes, 21 they were were PCB containing items. Would the remainder 22 after the drain off would that -- in than scenario, if that 23 were in fact the case, would it have PCB's in it? 24 A. That's reasonable. 25 Q. In -- in the second paragraph he discusses the RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061051 COMPOTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 67 1 pound -- I mean the cost of the crude crystals and he says 2 it's 75 cents per pound. 3 A. Right. 4 Q. And he says we assume that we are to continue 5 collecting all available crystals. Now, would you then -- 6 I don't understand what he's saying here. Are you going to 7 pay him 75 cents per pound of crystal recovered? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay, and he would have a thousand pounds of this 10 stuff according to paragraph 3? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And then he -- he also offers, I guess, to purify 13 the isomer for an additional 3 dollars per pound of 14 product, is that -- 15 A. Right. 16 Q. Okay. This 2 stage extraction process could be 17 carried out in toluene? 18 A. Tolune, chlorobenzene or chlorethane. 19 Q. Would there be a by-product from that? 20 A. Sure, it's a purification process. 21 Q. There would be a by-product and in all 22 probability that would contain PCB's as well, is that 23 correct? 24 A. That's reasonable. 25 Q. Do you remember -- who is Dr. Q. E. Thompson? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061052 __________________________ COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION_____________ 68 1 A. Quinton Thompson a Monsanto, a very good 2 scientist. 3 Q. Is he still with Monsanto? 4 A. I'm not sure. He's older than I am and I'm very 5 old. I'm not sure. 6 MR. CARNEY: I heard the name mentioned but I 7 can't recall whether he's still with Monsanto or retired. 8 Q. So Dr. Thompson's been with Monsanto from -- do 9 you know, did he continue his service from at least this 10 date to whenever, up close to the present? 11 A. I would think so. 12 (Plaintiff's Exhibit Numbers 32-37 were 13 marked for identification.) 14 Q. I'd like to show you what's been marked as 15 Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 32 and ask you to take a 16 look at that, please. All right. This is a letter from 17 Glen F. Taylor to Milton Tegethoff dated June 1, 1971. 18 Would you tell us -- Glen Taylor I take is an employee of 19 Monsanto or was at this time? 20 A. Right. 21 Q. Can you tell us about his position and where he 22 worked? 23 A. Glen is -- is or was at least involved in 24 shipping traffic type activities, probably reported to 25 early Potter at that time, although I'm not sure, who would RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061053 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 69 1 instead have been at the Queeny plant at that time. I'm 2 not sure about that. But at any rate, he was a guy 3 involved in shipping. 4 Q. Okay. We look at the content of the letter, 5 that's primarily what's -- he's worried about labels and 6 billings and that kind of thing? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. He's talking about the shipment of these 4 by 4 9 dichlorobiphenyl approximately 500 pounds and it's going to 10 the Queeny plant. What would you be doing with it at 11 Queeny? 12 A. 4-4 prime dichlorobiphenyl was an unusual use of 13 chlorinated biphenyl, never was sold that I know of as an 14 Aroclor but rather was used as a chemical intermediate for 15 very small volume special product that was made at the 16 Queeny plant. Queeny plant had an interim production 17 facility that was used for mid-scale experimental materials 18 and that's where this would be going. 19 Q. Well, what was the original stuff if you'll 20 pardon that inaccurate expression and noting Mr. Carney's 21 objection that I know he will be making, he doesn't need 22 to, I understand it's not scientific. What was the 23 original stuff that Mr. Tegethoff would have had that he 24 could draw crystals out of it? 25 A. We called it Aroclor 1232 for convenience. It RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061054 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 70 1 was biphenyl that had been chlorinated to an average 2 chlorine content of 32 percent. 3 Q. Would that again -- to use the accurate 4 scientific term, would that have been stuff that would have 5 gone to a Monsanto customer and been contaminated? 6 A. No. 7 Q. This was stuff Monsanto shipped to Findett, 8 correct, to do this particular work? 9 A. Right. 10 (A recess was taken.) 11 Q. (By Ms. DeStein) Mr. Savage, I'd like to show 12 you what I've marked as Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 33 13 'd ask you to take a look at it. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. This is a memo from you to Art Koenig, correct? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Dated April 27, 1971, 4 by 4 dichlorobiphenyl? 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. You've carboned in Joe Rositz, is it? 20 A. Rositz. 21 Q. D. R. Hogan, Dr. Thompson. Now, you had stated 22 earlier in -- just a few minutes ago when you were 23 explaining 4 by 4 crystals that generally or that you 24 didn't sell it to customers? 25 A. Right, it was my recollection but obviously from RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061055 ___________________________COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION___________________ 71 1 this memo it appears that we did sell a little bit of it. 2 Q. Okay. Now, down here in the third paragraph the 3 -- the opening sentence here: While the revenue from the 4 customer order will not quite cover the cost of making the 5 batch, I told Milt to go ahead. You know, now, your 6 reasoning is are these different things, 1 through 5, no 7 working capital is tied up in inventory, customer 8 development program will be supported, avoids research 9 people tied up on repetitive work, we have no assurance of 10 any further requirement, finally Therminol 77 schedules 11 won't give us another opportunity this year if further need 12 develops. Does that tickle your recollection about what 13 this may be about? 14 A. I don't remember this having an order for -- for 15 4-4 prime dichlorobiphenyl. Art Koenig was the business 16 group accountant. I was making a point with him about how 17 I handled the costs rather than any particular policy 18 point. 19 Q. Bottom line here, you were -- you were approving 20 a loss, weren't you, for these reasons that you set forth? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. A short fall, not a loss, a short fall, on this 23 particular -- all right. 24 Let me show you what's been marked as Plaintiff's 25 Deposition Exhibit 34, Mex 695. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061056 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 72 1 A. Okay. 2 Q. Now, this is the same date, Mr. Savage, April 3 27th, 1971, is the previous exhibit, it's a memo from you 4 to J.L. Corder at the Anniston plant, that's Anniston, 5 Alabama, correct? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. It's carboned to Lou Stark, Mr. Potter and Mr. 8 Bradford. Does this -- this -- does this or does it not 9 have anything to do with the 4 by 4 crystal memos and 10 letters? 11 A. As far as I can tell it's a completely different 12 subject, the date is a coincidence. 13 Q. Okay, and here you're discussing making a blend, 14 is it Aroclor 5460? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. What is Aroclor 5460? 17 A. Aroclor 5460 was terphenyl chlorinated to 60 18 percent chlorene and then distilled. 19 Q. Does it have any relation to 1260? 20 A. 1260 is biphenyl chlorinated to 60 percent. So 21 5460 is the terphenyl equivalent of 1260 but made from 22 terphenyl instead of biphenyl. 23 Q. Is it as thick as 1260? 24 A. More so 5460 was a solid shipped in bags, flaked. 25 Q. What would you do with that then, Mr. Savage? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061057 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 73 1 A. Just -- you mean -- normal use of it. 2 Q. How would a customer use that? 3 A. It was used for things like waterproofing canvas, 4 as I recall. I think it may have been used as a 5 plasticizer. 6 Q. Then you have these different things but -- what 7 was Findett's function with this particular project? 8 A. Well, again, I've got to read it into the memo, I 9 don't remember exactly what was going on at the time, but 10 reclaimed Pydraul may not pass fire test. Some of the 11 Pydrauls were blends of Aroclors with things like mineral 12 oil and after -- after use, particularly if the product was 13 contaminated with more mineral oil, the reclaimed product 14 might not pass the factory neutral fire test and in order 15 to bring up the fire resistance, chlorinated material could 16 be added to it. 17 Q. Now, would -- would Findett be the party here who 18 would actually at the 5460? 19 A. Again, I'm just reading it into the memo, it 20 appears so. 21 Q. So Anniston was the manufacturer of the 5460, 22 correct? 23 A. That's the only place we made it. 24 Q. I'd like to show you Plaintiff's Deposition 25 Exhibit 35. That's Mexico 656 through 672. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061058 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 74 1 A. Okay. 2 Q. This is a Monsanto document from W.R. Richard, 3 Dr. Richard, dated November 17, 1971, subject, project 4 analysis, FLU-013 revised. Pydraul formulations and there 5 is a series of people listed here and you are one of them 6 who received this, is that correct? 7 A. Right, right. 8 Q. All right, and Dr. Richard states attached is 9 specialty products research project analysis of FLU-013 10 revised, quote, Pydraul formulations, unquote. What was 11 this document? 12 A. I think this was a document for management review 13 of the -- of the overall program in Pydrauls. 14 Q. Okay. Let's go right to 63, 663, fluid 15 reclamation. At this point in time I'd like to ask you if 16 the general atmosphere at Monsanto, was it less turbulent 17 at this point by November of '71? 18 MR. CARNEY: Objection to the form. 19 Q. You can answer the question if you understand. 20 A. Surely alot of things had fallen into place. 21 This is dated late 1971, and I must say that I -- I'm not 22 too clear at this point about where we stood in the Pydraul 23 program at that time. I'm sure you heard from Stark we 24 reformulated the Pydraul program twice and the first 25 reformulation took out the PCB's and I should think that by RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061059 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 75 1 November of 1971 the decision had surely been made to take 2 PCB's out of Pydrauls but whether it had actually been 3 accomplished at that time, I don't know. 4 Q. Let me ask you, did you ever take like whole 5 Pydraul, what was the pure form, correct, and then it would 6 become contaminated and then reprocessed into Pydraul, 7 could that be done? Do I have that correct? 8 A. Well, it's a little bit different flavor than -- 9 than the ordinary procedure. When we made Aroclor 1242, 10 the normal procedure was that it was all made to the same 11 standard of purity, typically kept in the same storage 12 tanks, and it could be sold -- sold either at Therminol 13 FR-1 or Pydraul pasture grade or used in Pydraul. The 14 point I made earlier about purity was that if something was 15 slightly off the electrical specifications meaning a very 16 minor amount of contamination those were very severe 17 specifications, that probably did not render it unsuitable 18 for use in other applications but Aroclor 1242 within the 19 manufacturing plant was all one product. 20 Q. Does Monsanto still make Aroclor 1242? 21 A. Oh, no. 22 Q. You haven't made that in years, have you? 23 A. We haven't made any Aroclor in years. Despite 24 what it says in the papers, we stopped 2 years before it 25 was banned. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061060 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 76 1 Q. You still have Aroclor 1242 I believe just for 2 scientific purposes? Like storage, you don't make it 3 but -- 4 A. Gosh, I don't know. There might be some sample 5 bottles around. Surely no significant quantity. 6 Q. It's a label. Plaintiff's Exhibit 21 that we 7 showed to Mr. Stark, but I will tell you this, that we had 8 that copy made off of a bottle of Aroclor 1242 that is at 9 the NEIC laboratory in Denver and I saw the bottle and pick 10 it up and was able to look at it and -- 11 A. Sounds like something has something. 12 Q. Okay, but the level of purity that you were 13 discussing with the standards being as strict as they were, 14 that's what would be in the -- in a bottle labeled like 15 that coming directly from the plant, correct? 16 A. Well, it says dielectric fluid on the label so 17 that implies it's made to the high specification. 18 Q. I will say that the environmental protection 19 agency uses this substance as a standard against -- in 20 their gas chromatograph so that they can see what they've 21 got. 22 So as -- as in 1971 when you knew that -- that 23 PCB's were going to present a problem and Monsanto, I'm 24 sure, was trying to figure out what to do, was one of the 25 answers to this ever proposed that you would reclaim a RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061061 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 77 1 substance and then try to bring the level of PCB's in it 2 down each time it was reclaimed or bring it down through 3 reprocessing? 4 A. I would think so. I -- I don't know of any way 5 to do that other than perhaps by dilution. 6 Q. Now, it states in here on page 664, when I say in 7 here I'm referring back to Government's Exhibit 35, I 8 believe. On page 664 it says usually the customer doesn't 9 want to invest in recycled fluids. It says it's being done 10 by a few of our major customers but evidently this practice 11 is expected to increase. Did it in fact increase? 12 A. I guess I don't know. At the time that I left 13 the business group in 1975, the only Pydrauls we were 14 selling were all phosphate ester and whether reclamation 15 had really increased at that time or later, I don't know. 16 We subsequently went out of the Pydraul business. 17 Q. The phosphate esters don't have PCB, correct? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. It says here, in some cases reconstitution of the 20 fluid with base stock components and additives is 21 desirable, we have done this on a limited informal basis 22 with Findett. Could you describe what an informal basis 23 would be? 24 A. I really don't know what he's talking about. 25 Q. Okay. That's fine. When in the next paragraph RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061062 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 78 1 it says that -- that a plan and agreement is being prepared 2 that would involve the customer, the reclaimer and 3 Monsanto, and then Monsanto would have primary 4 responsibility for reclaimed fluid quality, if Findett's 5 the reclaimer, then -- Monsanto then would take 6 responsibility for this stuff after it came out of there? 7 A. That's what he's describing in this paragraph. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. The plan that he's talking about there I believe 10 was prepared by Don Pogue and was not accepted by 11 management. 12 Q. Okay. If we go to 670, it says 7, fluid 13 reclamation, and then it says -- it's got these dates on 14 the -- on the far righthand column. The document that 15 we're looking at is dated November 11, 1971, the most 16 recent date says third and fourth quarter, '71, then fourth 17 quarter '71 through '72, and fourth quarter '71 through 18 '72. So you're saying that here he's projecting -- 19 actually this was from Bill Richard? 20 A. Bill Richard is the author of the document it 21 appears. 22 Q. Right, and so these are projections, is that 23 right, what Monsanto would do and what Findett would do? 24 A. Well, Bill is proposing a program and a 25 timetable. It appears that Findett is involved in this, RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061063 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 79 1 but that's the proposal. 2 Q. Okay. When it says LRS PFH, is that Lou Stark? 3 A. It's Lou Stark. I don't know who PFH is. 4 Q. Do you know who PDF is? 5 A. No, it doesn't ring a bell. 6 Q. Okay, and the LRS group? 7 A. I should think that's Stark's group. 8 Q. Did you ever consider a proposal to buy Findett? 9 A. No. 10 Q. I'd like to show you what's been marked as 11 Government's Exhibit 36, this is Mex 393 to 409. All 12 right. Turning to Exhibit 36, this is a memo it would 13 appear from C.L. Bradford, J.H. Davidson from the general 14 office dated December 8th, 1971, industrial hydraulic 15 fluids transition plan to T.L. Gossage, is that correct? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. And also there are other people that are on this, 18 you being one of them, correct? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. And on my copy a Mr. Bergen and a Dr. W.R. 21 Richard are also written in? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. What does it mean, industrial hydraulic fluids 24 transition plan? What transition plan? 25 A. Well, I -- I think this refers to the program RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061064 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 80 1 that I call reformulation, earlier. The original versions 2 of Pydraul were blends, were Aroclor, and at some point we 3 decided to reformulate, produce a new line of products that 4 didn't contain Aroclor. It's a little bit hard again for 5 me to place this in time, but I should think that by the 6 time this was written in December of '71 the decision had 7 already been taken to reformulate. So the plan must have 8 to do with that. 9 Q. Okay. It says reclamation, we should move now to 10 work with Findett Service Company, I'm reading from 395, on 11 the reclamation of the Pydraul fluids. This means quoting 12 in conjunction with Findett for reclamation business 13 wherever we can be competitive. If it turns out that due 14 to geography we cannot be competitive in conjunction with 15 Findett in all locations, we will establish relationships 16 with other reclaimers in those locales. Do you know if in 17 fact you did that? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Whether or not Monsanto did that? 20 A. (Shakes head.) 21 Q. You knew before that a proposal had been 22 rejected. Do you know whether or not this proposal was 23 accepted or rejected by management? 24 A. I don't think we did, but I can't say with 25 certainty. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061065 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 81 1 Q. Would it be fair to extrapolate from that that 2 Monsanto was just using Findett up until that point because 3 it says if we can't be competitive in conjunction with 4 Findett in all locations, we'll establish relationships 5 with other reclaimers in far, distant locales. 6 A. I think the competitive issue here would be one 7 of freight. 8 Q. I know that that would be the issue, what I'm 9 saying is it reveals that there are no other relationships 10 at least at this point, correct? 11 MR. CARNEY: Objection, I think it would call for 12 speculation. 13 Q. If you know. 14 A. I don't know that we ever talked to anybody else. 15 Q. Other than Findett? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. I'll show you what's been marked as Government's 18 Exhibit 37, Mex 367 through 381. 19 MR. CARNEY: For the record, part of these -- 20 part of this document was drafted by Mr. Stark. 21 MS. DeSTEIN: Thank you for telling me. 22 MR. CARNEY: The graph, 370. 23 MS. DeSTEIN: He drew the graph. 24 MR. CARNEY: Yes. , 25 MS. DeSTEIN: I'm glad we have that on the record RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061066 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 82 1 in case we need him for trial. 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 Q. (By Ms. DeStein) Okay. This is a document dated 4 March 10th, 1972, entitled Pydraul reclamation. It was a 5 written by a G.G. Kosup to Mr. Bergen, correct? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. And you are carboned on this. 8 A. Right. 9 Q. And this is about -- the document presents 10 different alternatives for Pydraul reclamation, correct? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. And it involves discussion of Findett, correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Who is Corey? 15 A. That's W.R. Corey, known as Wink, he was a -- I 16 think our general manager, Bergen's boss, anyway. 17 Q. General manager of all of Monsanto? 18 A. He was the general manager, I think it was the 19 division at the time. Cunningham was his boss. That was 20 Press Cunningham who was the managing director, whatever we 21 called our business group at the time. 22 Q. Are either of those gentlemen still with the 23 company? 24 A. No, both retired. 25 Q. It says also attached is a discussion of the RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061067 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 83 1 treatment of Findett's Pydraul losses. You will see that 2 some steps are necessary to create a clean system at 3 Findett, an annual burning cost of around 5,000 dollars 4 will also be incurred. We should assume Monsanto will 5 likely bear this cost in one form or another since Findett 6 operating on its own would probably see little need to go 7 through all of these procedures. What are they talking 8 about there, do you know? 9 MR. CARNEY: I object to the form of the 10 question. I think -- 11 Q. Do you know what is being discussed there, Mr. 12 Savage? 13 A. Not from that paragraph. 14 Q. Do you know from later paragraphs in the 15 document? 16 A. Someplace they talk filtering through antipogus 17 clay. I presume he's talking about Aroclor. That would be 18 on that clay after the filtration. 19 Q. And there's concern about that clay then? 20 A. Yeah, where it goes. I don't know where it went 21 but that seems to be what we're concerned about. 22 Q. At this point in time Monsanto is aware that 23 certain legislative action maybe taken with regard to 24 PCB's, is that correct? 25 A. Certainly. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061068 __________________________ COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION___________________ 84 1 Q. If you'd check on page 369 the document is 2 entitled fluid inventory, usage, and PCB/PCT content. Can 3 you tell us what this chart represents? 4 A. Referring to the graph? 5 Q. No, I'm referring to the -- to the table, excuse 6 me. 7 A. It refers to somebody's hydraulic system, it must 8 be the customer, I wouldn't know which one. 9 Q. The customer's name would be the blacked out 10 thing on the top righthand corner? 11 A. I believe so. 12 Q. Was Findett facility the only facility being used 13 at that point in time to reclaim Pydraul? 14 A. I think some of the customers were doing it 15 themself. 16 Q. In terms of Monsanto, Findett was it at this 17 point in time? 18 A. I think Findett was working for some of the 19 customers. Whether they were doing it on our account, I'm 20 not sure. 21 Q. The graph on 370, what -- apparently Mr. Stark 22 drew, what does it indicate? 23 A. Well, clearly this chart was drawn after the 24 decision was taken to eliminate -- to make the second 25 reformulation. PCB we talked about. PCT referred to RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061069 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 85 1 polychlorinated terphenyl, 5,400 kinds of products we 2 talked about earlier, and talks about the content of the 3 fluid after change to phosphate ester which was the final 4 reformulation. This would simply describe the behavior of 5 a customer system as the PCB and PCT's were diluted by the 6 addition of new product that didn't contain any. 7 Q. So, in other words, you could take a PCB product 8 and dilute it to the point there were no more PCB's in it? 9 A. That's impossible. There's always a few 10 molecules lefts. 11 Q. So there would still be a few molecules left? 12 A. This is a log chart, it never goes to zero. 13 Q. So there would still be some in there but -- 14 A. If -- if you simply continued to top up a system 15 with non-PCB's fluid, obviously the concentration of PCB 16 will go down over time. 17 Q. What would you do with the old PCB's? 18 A. Well, this is describing a customer's system. So 19 somehow the PCB is leaving its system through leakage, 20 drain off or whatever reason. 21 Q. The next page, 371, treatment of Findett's 22 Pydraul reclaim process loss. Do you know who wrote this? 23 A. No. 24 Q. All right. This is part of this document, is 25 that correct? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061070 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 86 1 A. I can't even tell. 2 Q. All right. 3 A. I suppose so. 4 Q. It discusses Findett's yield loss and it says 5 it's expected to change from 8 to 3 percent. Why would 6 that be? 7 A. Well, again, I can only deduce from reading what 8 it says. Changing to a cost at wash system, presumably 9 that's a way of getting -- getting out whatever impurities 10 are undesirable. That does not involve losses in the same 11 way as the use of filtration. 12 Q. Okay. At this point in time, though, this page 13 indicates where it has A and B, Pydraul and water and then 14 a slurry fed into our incinerator at the Krummich plant 15 and, B, by the very nature of the title of this, process 16 loss and then these different things that you have listed 17 here, indicates that Monsanto is taking an interest in what 18 happens with Findett's loss, isn't it? 19 MR. CARNEY: I'm going to object to the question. 20 I think it calls for this witness to speculate inside the 21 mind of an unknown author and question has undefined terms, 22 what you mean by Monsanto taking an interest. 23 Q. You can answer the question, if you understand 24 it. 25 A. Well, this appears to be part of a strategy on RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061071 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION87 1 reclamation. I would presume that a strategy on 2 reclamation at this point in our history when we become 3 very sensitive to PCB's getting into the environment, 4 whether it was Findett, a customer, or anywhere else we 5 would be concerned about the consequences of our strategy. 6 Q. Do you know whether or not Monsanto bought 7 Findett a Gifford-Wood homogenizer mixer? 8 A. I have no idea. 9 Q. Do you know if Monsanto bought anything for 10 Findett in terms of environmental equipment or things that 11 would lower the loss into the environment of PCB's? 12 A. I don't think so. 13 Q. Who is CED? 14 A. Corporate engineering department. 15 Q. Moving along to reclamation stragegy -- 16 MR. CARNEY: What page are you on? 17 MS. DeSTEIN: 375, title is reclamation stragegy. 18 Q. Here it states in the opening paragraph that 19 Monsanto has for many years been the primary supplier of 20 fire resistant fluids to the aluminum and steel making 21 industries. These were based on polychlorinated biphenyls, 22 PCB, and polychlorinated terphenyls, PCT, compounds which 23 provided excellent fire resistance and hydraulic 24 performance at a reasonable price. By nature of most 25 die-casting and foundry operations, large quantities of RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061072 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 88 1 hydraulic fluid has gone directly into the plant effluent 2 through system leakage, thereby causing both an economic 3 loss and an environmental problem. Because of recent 4 environmental pressures on PCB/PCT compounds in water, 5 users must now stop using these fluids, You, of course, 6 knew this at Monsanto at that point, correct? 7 A. This is right. 8 Q. More in background, all right. Now in the third 9 paragraph it states there are presently 4.5M with a line 10 over it. Does that M with a line over it denote million? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. If the M didn't have the line over it, would it 13 be thousand? 14 A. Yeah, that was our nomenclature at the time. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. Before we got metricated. 17 Q. So let's -- is that how many gallons were 18 outstanding that -- that Monsanto had sold to customers at 19 that point and that was your estimate of -- 20 A. That seems to be an estimate of the inventory 21 inside customer's systems. 22 Q. It would seem to me that Monsanto, this is not 23 referring to this document, this is just general policy 24 question for the company. It seems that in reviewing all 25 of the 700 documents that were produced here, that Monsanto RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061073 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 89 1 kept pretty good touch, the salesmen kept in pretty close 2 touch with the customer. In other words, if I were to buy 3 Monsanto product my Therminol or Pydraul, a Monsanto 4 salesman would be in touch with me again. We have call 5 reports, we have -- 6 A. That's what good salesmen do. 7 Q. Right. In other words, was -- was this -- and 8 you say you sold this stuff by the tank car and by drums, 9 generally? 10 A. Right. 11 MR. CARNEY; Stuff again. 12 MS. DeSTEIN; Stuff again. I'm being very 13 scientific, Mr. Carney. 14 MR. CARNEY: You're talking about Pydraul. 15 MS. DeSTEIN: And Therminol, right, the FR 16 series. 17 Q. (By Ms. DeStein) When -- when -- so you did keep 18 pretty good -- pretty good tabs on your inventory out at 19 your customers? 20 MR. CARNEY: I'm going to object to the question, 21 I think it's vague and ambiguous. 22 Q. The salesmen knew what the different losses were 23 and then they would bring -- they would bring this stuff 24 again as we've defined it -- they would talk with the 25 customer and work with the customer on it, is that correct? RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061074 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 90 1 MR. CARNEY; Objection. Same objection. 2 MS. DeSTEIN: Well, if he knows. 3 Q. (By Ms. DeStein) If you can answer my question. 4 MR. CARNEY: I think you're talking about -- 5 you're generalizing and I don't know that this witness is 6 involved in marketing, so it might call for him to 7 speculate. If you want a speculation as own personal 8 speculation, 1111 allow it, but not as a spokesman for 9 Monsanto. 10 MS. DeSTEIN; I don't think we need speculation 11 here, if he knows. He was involved in product -- 12 MR. CARNEY: To be clear about it, I never went 13 on a customer call to a Pydraul account. So I -- you can 14 make a general statement that good salesmen are in contact 15 with customers and they're concerned about when they're 16 going to get another order. 17 Q. And they -- they -- it was a salesman that was 18 the contact, though, between -- between the -- your 19 corporation -- between Monsanto and the customer, it was 20 the salesman that was -- 21 A. Normally, sure. 22 Q. It says here most of the existing fluids will 23 have leaked into the environment within 2 years. Is that 24 the existing fluids, the 4.5 million? 25 MR. CARNEY; I'm going to object again, calling RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061075 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 91 1 for some witness to speculate about what this author was 2 intending. The document can speak for itself. 3 A. The only thing you can test is by reading the 4 paragraph. I don't know anything else about it. 5 Q. On page 376, there's a paragraph that states that 6 most reclaimed companies typically are small and poorly 7 managed places that started by reclaiming dry cleaning 8 fluids. 9 MR. CARNEY: 376. 10 Q. Paragraph 3. It says there they're sources of 11 pollution because of tendency to sewer most reclaiming 12 process losses. Was that your experience? 13 A. I have no idea. I don't know who wrote this. I 14 never worked with any small reclaiming companies, I don't 15 know. 16 Q. You never worked with Findett? 17 A. I worked with Findett. 18 Q. Were they not a small reclaiming company? 19 A. Well, yeah, maybe so. I didn't work with them on 20 reclaiming in general. 21 Q. Now, in paragraph C, it says there's a -- there's 22 a customer that's been blocked out, is probably the biggest 23 user that is reclaiming. And if you go along it says 60 24 percent is reclaimed fluid and then down in the last 25 paragraph -- sentence of that paragraph says Findett RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061076 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 92 1 Service Company of St. Charles, Missouri, has been their 2 reclaimer. Now, Findett -- that is a customer then of 3 Monsanto, correct? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. In this, a long range objective, one of the 6 objectives would be for Monsanto to go into the reclamation 7 business, correct? 8 A. That was the purpose of this plan, right. 9 Q. Now, under general strategy under reclaimer, it 10 has Findett Service Company, and then it has a number of 11 things listed that shows that why -- well, they're very 12 positive about Findett, aren't they? 13 MR. CARNEY: Objection to the form of the 14 question. 15 Q. Are they positive about Findett, Mr. Savage? 16 A. Those are positive comments, yes. 17 Q. What does it mean that Findett and Monsanto are 18 in agreement on program and processing costs? 19 MR. CARNEY: Objection. Again, calls for 20 speculation inside the mind of the author. 21 Q. If you know about this. 22 A. I really don't. Whoever worked this plan out 23 with Findett did not involve me in the -- in working it 24 out. 25 Q. Okay. On page 6 of it which is page 380, pricing RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061077 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 93 1 strategy, it indicates that Findett and Monsanto would work 2 out price, an average cost to Monsanto based upon a cost 3 volume relationship agreed upon. You were very involved in 4 pricing. So you were carboned in on this. 5 A. What's the question? 6 Q. What is the cost volume relationship that had 7 been agreed to by Monsanto and Monsanto -- Monsanto and 8 Findett? 9 MR. CARNEY: Let me object. I -- well, I'm not 10 sure if this is clear that we're talking about something 11 that's a -- a strategy for the future or something that's 12 already happened. You can answer, if you can. 13 A. Well, I really can't. It appears from the 14 paragraph that somebody had worked out a structure for the 15 price that depended on the volume, but I don't recall 16 having had any involvement in it. 17 Q. It says in the next paragraph that since Monsanto 18 is offering a high quality, certified, reclaimed fluid, at 19 a price that is reasonable, this price would be for tank 20 truck quantities with processing requirements similar to 21 those of blank. Was that being done at Findett, correct? 22 The reclaimed fluid? 23 A. That seems to be the proposal. 24 Q. And the strategy alternatives described in number 25 8, number 1 is to buy Findett and be 100 percent in the RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061078 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 94 1 reclaim business. This route would require a capital 2 investment by Monsanto. This may be desirable after the 3 program has been established. 4 A. That's the first I heard of such a proposal. 5 Q. Well, you were -- you were carboned in on this 6 but are you saying you didn't -- 7 A. No. I get alot of mail. I can't imagine that we 8 would have seriously considered that. 9 Q. It says under page 7, number 7, that's Mex 381, 10 under action plans, responsibility, business group director 11 and Findett formally sign proposed contract with reclaimer, 12 target or review date was March 21st, 1972. That would 13 have been 11 days from when this was sent out. Do you know 14 if that ever happened? 15 A. Well, you may know better than I do. I don't 16 remember that it ever happened. 17 Q. Now, you've testified that you worked at the 18 Queeny plant from 1967 through 1970, correct? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. And your duties there, I believe you described as 21 general superintendent, is that right, and technical -- 22 A. Technical services and laboratory. 23 Q. Okay. Now, you may or may not know about this. 24 I want to ask you if you'll take a look at Plaintiff's 25 Exhibit 18. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061079 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 95 1 A. I don't recognize it. 2 Q. Okay. This -- for purposes of the record is a -- 3 an internal Monsanto memo, is it not, dated July 15, 1968, 4 subject arrangement 171C, CF 434, customer/Findett 5 reclaiming scrap Aroclors, that's to file. Now, you were 6 not working for Mr. Bergen at that time, were you? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. All right. You were answering to Mr. Moody? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. But in the first paragraph of this under the 11 general when it says JFQ, they're referring to Queeny, 12 correct? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. And later on down in 5 lines up from the bottom 15 of that page, it says J.F. Queeny freight, referring to 16 freight? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. And then on the following page, the last sentence 19 in paragraph 3, again refers to the Queeny plant. 20 A. Right. 21 Q. This is freight from Findett to Queeny for 22 reprocessed stuff. Do you know anything about this? 23 A. I don't know anything about the transaction. 24 Q. Were you ever aware of stuff or substances coming 25 in from Findett to Queeny when you worked there from '67 to RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061080 __________________________ COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION___________________ yb 1 '70? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Never? 4 A. No. Pydraul 312 was made at the Queeny plant, I 5 was certainly aware of that, but an unusual freight routing 6 or raw material would not be something that I would have 7 known anything about my responsibilities at that time. 8 Q. Would you call material that had been reprocessed 9 raw material? 10 A. Well, it would be raw material for the Queeny 11 plant if it was going to be used there. 12 Q. I'd like you to look at Plaintiff's Exhibit 23. 13 This is a memo from W.R. Richard to a W.A. Kuhn, November 14 11, 1968, with a -- 15 A. Bill Kuhn was my predecessor. 16 Q. He was in GO? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. Again, it refers in the first paragraph to the 19 Queeny plant, correct? 20 A. Right. 21 Q. In the second paragraph it refers to material 22 being delivered from Findett to Queeny, correct? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. All right. When you worked at Queeny, you were 25 there during this period of time, November 11, here's RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061081 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 97 1 another instance of the same -- I mean of material coming 2 in from Findett. A tank car of it. Were you aware of 3 that? 4 A. No. 5 Q. I'd like to show you what's been marked as 6 Plaintiff's Exhibit 13. In the interest of time, if I 7 could, maybe just -- if you'd like to read the whole 8 document, you're more than willing to, I'm only going to 9 ask you about 2 sections of document. So if I could direct 10 your attention to that. If you need more time to read 11 around it, if you'd like, that's fine. This is dated July 12 24th, on Monsanto memo paper from J.G. Bryant to a series 13 of people including Mr. Bergen, someone whose name has come 14 up. He was not your boss at that time, though, correct? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. Okay. Directing your attention, right, to page 17 415, to the paragraph at the top of the page labeled 18 reclamation agreement. If you'd read that paragraph. This 19 is a reclamation agreement that alot of -- the material 20 would go from Findett to Queeny, correct? 21 A. Yeah, and the next paragraph they talk about 22 896,000 pounds a year. 23 Q. Right. Almost 900,000 pounds a year, scrap, 24 electrical Aroclor. What is your definition in your mind 25 when you read the term as it's used in here in quotation RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061082 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 98 1 marks, junk? What is junk as you're reading that? I can 2 point a place out. 3 A. Just up at the top of the same page. 4 Q. Right. 5 A. I suspect that junk simply means material that's 6 not good enough to reclaim. 7 Q. Thank you. On page 416, if you'd look at the top 8 of the page, basic agreement under that, Monsanto is 9 creating its own raw material code for the Aroclor 10 reclaimed at Findett, correct? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. And that's the material that you described 13 earlier as raw material and it's described here as raw 14 material that would go back to Queeny? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. Okay. Down in the -- toward the bottom of the 17 page, the paragraph beginning notification of Aroclor? 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. Okay. Will be furnished by Findett and matched 20 with Queeny plant receiving report. So, in other words, 21 when material was received at Queeny, a report was 22 generated, is that right? 23 MR. CARNEY: I'm going to object, you're asking 24 this witness to speculate about what's in a document. 25 MS. DeSTEIN: I'm not asking about what's RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061083 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 99 1 happening here, I'm asking as a general rule. I don't care 2 if it came from Findett or mars. 3 Q. (By Ms. DeStein) Was a receiving report 4 generated when something was received be it raw material or 5 whatever into the Queeny plant? 6 A. Yes, at any plant. That's a function of 7 shipping, to generate a piece of paper called a receiving 8 report. 9 Q. When it says Findett will give notification of 10 Aroclors to be scrapped, do you have any knowledge of that, 11 what that would mean? 12 MR. CARNEY: Again, I'm going to object. The 13 document speaks for itself and this witness I don't think 14 ever saw this document before. 15 MS. DeSTEIN: I'm just asking if he knows what it 16 means. 17 THE WITNESS: I know what scrap means, something 18 not useful and has to be got rid of. 19 Q. (By Ms. DeStein) If you know, how would Aroclors 20 be scrapped at Queeny in 1969? 21 A. Taken to a landfill, I would think. 22 Q. If you'd take a look at Plaintiff's Deposition 23 Exhibit 5. Have you had enough time to -- 24 A. I've gone through it. It's not clear to me what 25 the connection is between all of these papers because some RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061084 i vZ'U.'l 1 of them seem to be of a different subject. 2 MR. CARNEY: I can't vouch that these papers 3 belong altogether. All I can say is that that's how we 4 found the documents stapled together and they could have 5 been misstapled together but when we found documents 6 stapled together, we kept them stapled together, is the 7 only thing I can say. 8 MS. DeSTEIN: Right, I understand. The documents 9 they didn't seem to make alot of sense to us, either, the 10 way they were stapled together, but some of them I'd like 11 to ask you about specifically. I think we're doing this 12 backwards, but let's start at the beginning. 13 Q. (By Ms. DeStein) Do you recognize this form? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Is this a -- if you don't recognize it, then you 16 don't know whether it's a Monsanto form or some other 17 company's form, is that right? 18 A. Oh, it seems to be a Monsanto form, but COP at 19 the top, we've got a group thing called customer order 20 processing and I suppose that's where it came from. 21 Q. I see it says Sauget, Illinois, on there. Would 22 that be Krummich? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. It's got Findett Service Company at the top? 25 A. Right. RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061085 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 101 1 Q. And then it says that J. Littich -- office 2 records only, J. Littich, G. Fague. 3 A. Yeah, John Littich was the accountant over at the 4 Krummich plant, George Fague was in the product group. 5 Q. It indicates credit to cancel debit with a 6 number, 3-27-73, issued in error. Can you -- do you 7 know -- 8 A. Well, somebody screwed up and then they 9 straightened it out. I can't tell you what it's about. 10 Q. Is it fair because it says down here under -- 11 under the line 658 down here, is it fair to say that it was 12 a screw up -- on the same line -- same document. 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. That it was for incineration, the underlying -- 15 it says 3 cents per pound? 16 A. Well, it fits with one other document that's 17 further along the line in here. 92, yeah, taking the 2 18 together, it appears that's what it's about. 19 Q. You permitted payment on this? 20 A. Yeah, my signature's on here. 21 Q. Evidently, correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. -- 22 Monsanto sent Tegethoff a bill, he sent it to you, you saw 23 what he had written and then you approved it for payment? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. Mr. Tegethoff had written that disposal of above RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061086 X'KAL'M^CKii'l 1UJN 1 UX 1 material was to be at Monsanto's expense, this is part of 2 the close out on Therminol 77 production, FRT to be at 3 Monsanto's expense, and then it says contact Jim Savage at 4 Monsanto if further information is required. So, you were 5 Mr. Tegethoff's contact at this point, is that or -- 6 A. On this particular issue, this -- this has 7 nothing to do with Pydraul. Therminol 77 was the product 8 that was made -- that was made from 4-4 prime 9 dichlorobiphenyl. 10 Q. Are those those crystals we've been talking 11 about? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. Oh, okay. So that's the material that's been 14 disposed of here? 15 A. What's being disposed of is what was left after 16 the crystals had been isolated, I presume. 17 Q. And so you approved it for payment. Why did you 18 do that? 19 A. Well, I guess I concluded we owed him the money. 20 The note here refers to the close out of Therminol 77. 21 Therminol 77 was a high temperature transfer fluid which 22 was not in itself a PCB but because it was made from 23 chlorinated biphenyl was under some cloud and we elected to 24 just stop making it. 25 Q. So this is that batch of material you and I RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061087 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 103 1 discussed earlier where you stated that this wasn't old or 2 contaminated -- 3 A. No, this was a product made on purpose for this 4 use. 5 Q. So those were -- those were PCB's that Monsanto 6 owned, shipped to Findett for processing? 7 A. Yes, a toll manufacturing agreement with Findett. 8 MR. CARNEY; T-O-L-L. 9 Q. If we go to page 2, this is another Monsanto 10 document. Are you familiar with the form -- 11 A. Generally, I don't know whether this particular 12 version, but in general. 13 Q. Findett's on here again and the form under 14 explanation, it says being returned for disposal per terms 15 of letter from P. Gann. Free return and incineration 16 extended to September 1, 1972. This is FR fluid from our 17 file test lab. Are you familiar with that? 18 A. Right. I'm -- I know what the fire test lab was 19 all about. 20 Q. That's the fire test lab that was near Findett, 21 right? 22 A. Yeah, why Findett would have had fluid from our 23 fire test lab, I have no idea. 24 Q. Let me put forth a hypothesis to you, that they 25 had the fluid because it was drained out of the heat RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061088 CUM^UTtiK-AiUbJJ TKAAI5 L.K1 KI1 -i- U N J_ U 1 transfer fluid system at the -- at the -- owned by 2 Monsanto, in other words, the system that -- the fluid that 3 was literally in the Monsanto system at the heat test lab 4 at the fire shack was drained at this period of time and 5 for some reason went to Findett to be shipped. Can you -- 6 you don't have any explanation for that? 7 A. No. Maybe it was more convenient for Findett to 8 ship it, but I really don't know. 9 MS. DeSTEIN: I think we1 re all done. Thank you 10 very much. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061089 COMPUTER-AIDED TRANSCRIPTION 105 1 2 COUNTY OF ST. LOUIS ) 3 ) SS. STATE OF MISSOURI ) 4 5 6 I, J. R. SAVAGE, do hereby state that the 7 foregoing statements are true and correct to the best of my 8 knowledge and belief. 9 10 11 12 13 Subscribed and sworn to before me this ____ day of 14 _________ , A.D., 1990. 15 16 NOTARY PUBLIC 17 My Commission Expires: 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061090 COMPUTER-AIDED transcription 106 1 2 COUNTY OF ST. LOUIS 3 ) SS STATE OF MISSOURI 4 5 6 CERTIFICATE 7 8 I, Jo Ann Sturm, a Certified Shorthand Reporter, 9 Registered Professional Reporter and a Notary Public within 10 and for the State of Missouri, do hereby certify that I 11 reported in shorthand the foregoing? that I thereafter 12 caused the same to be transcribed into typewriting, which I 13 hereby certify to be a true and accurate transcription as 14 aforesaid. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 My Commission Expires: 23 June 24, 1993 RANKIN REPORTING & LEGAL VIDEO WATER PCB-SD0000061091