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IN THE MATTER OF: Carolyn B. FisherExecutrix of the Estate or Ralph L. FisherDeceased vs. Monsanto Company, a Delaware Corporation Cause No. 93037D Deposition of Robert E. Kelly, M.D. February 22, 1994 Gore & Perry Reporting Company 100 North Broadway, Suite 1175 Saint Louis, Missouri 63102 (314)241-6750 621-4790 (800) 878-6750 sss. WATER PCB-SD0000067847 2 2 WESTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA 3 DANVILLE DIVISION 4 5 CAROLYN B. FISHER, EXECUTRIX 6 OF THE ESTATE OF RALPH L. 7 FISHER, DECEASED, 8 9 Plaintiff, 1 0 -vs - CAUSE NO. 9 3 0 3 7 D 11 1 2 MONSANTO COMPANY, A 1 3 DELAWARE CORPORATION, 14 1 5 Defendant. 16 17 1 8 Deposition of ROBERT E. KELLY, M.D., taken 1 9 on behalf of the Plaintiff, at the offices of 2 0 Husch & Eppenberger, 100 North Broadway, 13th 2 1 Floor, in the City of St. Louis, State of 2 2 Missouri, on the 22nd day of February, 1994, 2 3 before Cynthia R. Rollberg, Shorthand Reporter 2 4 and Notary Public. 25 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067848 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 3 Michael Warshauer 4 Burge & Wettermark 5 Suite 2700 The Grand 6 75 14th Street 7 Atlanta, Georgia 30309 8 9 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 1 0 Gerard H. Davidson, Jr. 1 1 Smith, Helms, Mulliss & Moore, L.L.P. 1 2 Suite 1400 1 3 300 North Greene Street 1 4 P.O. Box 21927 1 5 Greensboro, N.C. 27420 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 5 ALSO PRESENT: J. DONALD COWAN, JR. 3 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067849 1 INDEX 2 PAGE 3 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WARSHAUER. ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 11 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 4 WATER PCB-SD0000067850 18 5 1 WITNESS SIGNATURE PAGE 2 3 COMES NOW THE WITNESS, ROBERT E. KELLY, M.D., 4 and having read the foregoing transcript of the 5 deposition taken on the 22nd day of February, 6 1994, acknowledges by signature hereto that it 7 is a true and accurate transcript of the 8 testimony given on the date hereinabove 9 mentioned. 10 1 1 ROBERT E. KELLY, M.D. 12 1 3 Subscribed and sworn to me before this 1 4 day of __________/ 1 9 9 4, 1 5 My Commission expires: __________________________________________ 16 17 1 8 NOTARY PUBLIC . 1 9 JOSBWS S. NIBLOCK K0TARY PUBLIC STATE OF MISSOURI 2 0 ST. LOUIS COUNTY HY COMMISSION EXP. JAN. 15.1055 21 22 23 24 25 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067851 In Re: Deposition Correction Sheet Upon reading (he deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: fPa"C 9 Line 18 Should read: and I have talked to epidemiologists Reason for assigned change: word should be plural $ /a j 0 C_o Page 43 Line 15 s-o to Should read: somebody's file *" <Hr f^ Reason for assigned change: word should be possessive ff 5- 2 jlwuj. t 3 A-dxMr-0 Page 68 eLyu 4? Line ^ Should read: from Swann Chemical Company ^ % 0^ Reason for assigned change: mispeiiing Ant ? y f fa-1-*W Page 83 Line i Should read: Swann chemical P&'jji' U 'l f-J Reason for assigned change: mispeiiing <r / /w . , Page 83 Line 4 Should read: Swann had Reason for assigned change: mispeiiing . Page 92 Line 22 Should read: dibenzo dioxins Reason for assigned change: mispeiiing Page 93 Line 18 Should read: a Dr* Vos in Reason for assigned change: mispeiiing Page 94 Line 2 Should read: the vos study Reason for assigned change: mispeiiing ... Page 95 Line 19 Should read: down vos went Reason for assigned change: mispeiiing rSH Gore & Perry Reporting Co. Si. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067852 In Re: --.. \ Dcposiiitm Corrcclion Shed Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, [lie deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page 100 Line 22 Should read: a Dr. Von Oettingen Reason for assigned change: miSpelling Page 101 Line l Should read . the Von Oettingen report Reason for assigned change: mispeiiing Page 108 Line 6 Should read: the Von Oettingen study Reason for assigned change: mispeiiing OW 1 U ^ **+<ZA Crv^- . .. Page 115 Line 2 Should read: Like zack and Musch LM'"' Reason for assigned change: mispellings Page 115 Line 23 Should read: Musch study Reason for assigned change: mispellings . i_ Page il8 Line 1 Should read: Dr- Renate Kimbrough Reason for assigned change: mispeiiing Page ns Line 22 Should read: of Treon's work Reason for assigned change: should be possessive Page 118 Line 25 Should read: the Swann episode Reason for assigned change: mispeiiing _ Page 119 Line 2 Should read: the Swann pcbs Reason for assigned change: mispeiiing . \ Gore & Perry Reporting Co. Sr. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067853 In Re: Deposition Correction Sheet Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page 135 Line 1 Should read:the Swann Chemical Company Reason for assigned change: mispelling Page 146 Line 13 Should read: is no sense doing a test Reason for assigned change: mispelling Page 173 Line 12 Should read: naphthalene of various chlorine Reason for assigned change: mispelling Page 176 / 7 g, Line 9 1 Should read: nr. suskina of Kettering ,, J< <JUwM-' of Reason for assigned change: mispelling Page 176 Line 10 Should read: nr. oettei, o-e-t-t-e-l t7t> " / U, " i< Reason for assigned change: mispelling . Page 177 Line 1 Should read: tetrachloro diphenylene oxide Reason for assigned change: incorrect chemical name P2ge 177 Line 2 Should read: tetrachloro dophenylene oxide Reason for assigned change: incorrect chemical name Page 177 Line 21-22 Should read: chlorinated diphenyl oxide Reason for assigned change: make 2 words.. Page 177 Line 22~23 Should read: chlorinated diphenylene oxide Reason for assigned change: incorrect chemical name Gore & Peny Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri , (324) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067854 In Re: Deposition Correction Sheet Upon reading the dcposilion and before subscribing (hereto, (lie deponent indicated the following changes should be made: Page 179 Line 18 Should read: Dr. Steele's and Dr. Marder's Reason for assigned change: mispeiiings Page 179 Line 19 Should read: Dr. Steele's Reason for assigned change: mispeiiing.. Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: ' Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: . ?2ge Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: Page Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: . Psge Line Should read: Reason for assigned change: . Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri , (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067855 5 1 ROBERT E. KELLY, M.D., 2 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to 3 testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 4 but the truth in the cause aforesaid, deposes 5 and says in reply to oral interrogatories 6 propounded as follows: 7 DIRECT EXAMINATION 8 MR. WARSHAUER: This is the 9 deposition of Dr. R.E. Kelly taken pursuant 1 0 to notice and agreement taken for discovery 1 1 and cross examination, taken pursuant to 1 2 federal rules of evidence and federal rules 1 3 of civil procedure. 1 4 (Witness sworn.) 1 5 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Give us your 1 6 name, please, sir. 1 7 MR. DAVIDSON: Excuse me, are there 1 8 any stipulations with regard to objections? 1 9 MR . WARSHAUER : You all can object 2 0 anytime you want to. 2 1 MR. DAVIDSON: Okay. 2 2 MR. WARSHAUER: And I tried to do 2 3 that where we stop the video tape and start 2 4 the tape, it is easier just to do it at a 2 5 time later if we ever wanted to do that. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067856 1 Since my primary purpose is cross examination 2 I'm not that particular what the tape looks 3 like. 4 A: Robert Emmet, E-M-M-E-T, Kelly, 5 K-E-L-L-Y, M.D. 6 Q: Dr. Kelly, at the end of this 7 deposition you will have the right to read 8 and sign it, make any changes, deletions or 9 corrections allowed by law or you may waive 1 0 that right? What is your - 11 A: I do not waive it. . 1 2 Q: Give us your date of birth, please, 1 3 sir. 1 4 A: November the 14th, 1909. 1 5 Q: And would you please share with us 1 6 the benefit of your education? 1 7 A: Yes, I received a bachelors degree 1 8 from St. Louis University in 1930, and M.D. 1 9 degree in 1932. 2 0 Q : Also from St. Louis? 2 1 A : Same institution . 2 2 Q : When you were in medical school did 2 3 you choose a particular course in which t o 2 4 specialize? 2 5 A : No. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067857 7 1 Q : After medical school in your 2 residency or internship programs did you 3 choose a particular course in which to 4 specialize? 5 A: Yes, I was a resident in internal 6 medicine at St. Louis City Hospital. I was 7 there for three years. The first two years 8 were rotating internships, and then the last 9 was a residency in medicine. 1 0 Q: All right. When you were in 1 1 undergraduate school what was your major? 1 2 A: They didn't have them. Oh, 1 3 undergraduate school? 1 4 Q : Yes, sir. 1 5 A: It was premedical. There was no 1 6 particular major at that time. It was a 1 7 premedical course, two years premedical 1 8 course . 1 9 Q : How much chemistry did you take? 2 0 A: Organic, inorganic, I would say two 2 1 semesters of chemistry. 2 2 Q: Now, when you decided to become an 2 3 internal medicine doctor what did you 2 4 understand that that practice would entail? 2 5 A: It would entail the non-surgical Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067858 8 1 treatment of adults, of systemic illnesses 2 similar to diabetes, asthma, pneumonia, the 3 non-surgical treatment of illnesses. 4 Q: And during your rotation through the 5 various specialties did any of those -- did 6 any of that training include toxicology? 7 A : No, sir. 8 Q: Did any of that training include 9 pathology? 1 0 A: Yes. Oh, pathology was included in 1 1 medical school. . 1 2 Q: Did you ever have any other training 1 3 beyond medical school in pathology, formal 1 4 training? 1 5 A: No formal training. There were 1 6 autopsies, obviously, of cases that expired 1 7 on our wards. 1 8 Q: And did you conduct the autopsies? 1 9 A: No, I observed them. 2 0 Q: Did you ever have any continuing 2 1 medical education after your formal training 2 2 as a doctor in the fields of pathology? 2 3 A : No, sir. 2 4 Q: Did you ever have any formal 2 5 continuing education of any sort in the field Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067859 9 1 of toxicology after your medical training? 2 As If by formal you mean one-week 3 courses, two-week courses, longer than that? 4 Q: A one-day seminar? 5 A: Well, I served a number of seminars 6 on toxicology given by various institutions 7 that I attended. 8 Q: And where were these? 9 A: University of Michigan, Harvard 1 0 University, and then others were given just 1 1 in conjunction with meetings of. the 1 2 Industrial Medical Association. 1 3 Q: Did you ever have any training 1 4 either in medical school or after medical 1 5 school in the field of epidemiology? 1 6 As Except do-it-yourself training, I 1 7 read a great deal of epidemiological studies 1 8 and I have talked to epidemiologist, but I 1 9 did not have any formal training. 2 0 Qs Not even one-day seminars? 2 1 As No, sir, not that I can recall. 2 2 Qs With respect to epidemiology what do 2 3 you understand that term to mean? 2 4 As It means the relationship of a 2 5 particular condition and it's incidence, it's Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067860 10 1 occurrence in a group of people related to 2 the incidents in a similar group not exposed 3 to any particular condition, whether that's 4 viral or chemical or bacterial. 5 Q: Thereis a term that I have seen 6 used in various studies abbreviated SMR. 7 - A : Yes. 8 Q: Do you know what that is? 9 A: Yes, that's a standard mortality 1 0 rate, whether it's mortality or morbidity, 1 1 it's used in both times, both areas. 1 2 Q: Do you have an idea in your mind as 1 3 to what number would be necessary for a 1 4 standard mortality or morbidity rate to be a 1 5 significant number? 1 6 A: Yes, I think it certainly should be 1 7 over that it would not occur in ninety-five 1 8 percent by chance, and could not occur by 1 9 ninety-five percent by chance. 2 0 Q: " If we saw an SMR that said two 2 1 hundred what would that mean to me? 2 2 A: It would be two hundred times one is 2 3 usually considered the standard mortality 2 4 rate. And if you had two hundred it would be 2 5 two hundred times that much. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067861 11 1 Q: All right. And if I had two? 2 A: It would be twice as much. 3 Q: And would an SMR of two have some 4 particular -- particular meaning if I was to 5 look at a particular study? 6 A: No, because there are other things 7 to be considered. 8 Q: And what are those? 9 A: Well, I would say that Sir Richard 1 0 Dali who was a premiere epidemiologist and 1 1 professor at Oxford, and he is well known as 1 2 an authority on epidemiology. He states that 1 3 for an epidemiological study to be valid you 1 4 had to have four things. One, it had to be 15 statistically significant. By that I mean if 1 6 you flipped a penny up in the air ten times 1 7 and it came up heads eight times you would 1 8 not say that the odds are eight to two that 1 9 it would turn up heads, but if you had a 2 0 thousand times when you flipped it up it 2 1 would be very close to five hundred times 2 2 heads. So that particular factor would be 2 3 scientifically -- significantly a significant 2 4 number. 2 5 The second condition he said was it Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067862 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 12 1 had to be reproducible. If you had an 2 epidemiological study that showed cancer of 3 the lungs, one study, another one cancer of 4 the testes, another one cancer of the gall 5 bladder, but not reproducible on all the 6 studies, that would give you cause to 7 question the validity of the study. The 8 third one was no confounders. By that means 9 that -- by that I mean if you're studying 1 0 diabetes in an individual group if you don't 1 1 take into account heredity, obesity, some 1 2 other factors you still could question that 1 3 epidemiological study. 1 4 The fourth is this, it could be dose 1 5 related. If you had people working with a 1 6 compound for one year and they had five times 1 7 the condition that people who worked ten 1 8 years would have, five times the number, that 1 9 would not be dose related obviously. 2 0 So those are the four conditions 2 1 that could influence the mortality rate, the 2 2 SMR of a particular epidemiological study. 2 3 Q: You mentioned the second factor? 2 4 A: Beg your pardon? 2 5 Q: The second factor you mentioned was Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067863 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 13 1 reproducibility. And the example you gave 2 was that one study may find lung cancer, 3 another study may find gall bladder, I think 4 was your term, and the third study may find 5 testicle cancer? 6 A : Yes, sir. 7 Q: Is it ever possible to you or would 8 it be something that you could see as 9 possible that a given compound could cause -- 1 0 be multi-factorial in it's carcinogenic 1 1 effect depending on the environment in which 1 2 the particular group lives? 1 3 MR. DAVIDSON: Object to the form of 1 4 the question. 1 5 A: I don't follow that last statement, 1 6 the last phrase of yours. 1 7 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Let me give it to 1 8 you this way. Let's assume that a compound 1 9 showed elevated skin cancers for people who 2 0 live in south Florida, even above their 2 1 neighborhood skin cancers, but people who 2 2 lived in an area where there was high lead 2 3 would show increased lead injuries above the 2 4 neighborhood's lead injuries. Would it be 2 5 possible that a compound could have a Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067864 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 14 1 synergistic effect that would show up in 2 multiple locations? 3 MR. DAVIDSON: Object to the form. 4 A: That would a supposition by 5 appointment, sir, and I don't think I could 6 answer that. 7 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) What is your 8 understanding of the term synergistic effects 9 of - 1 0 A: Synergistic effects in my point of 1 1 view is that two compounds acted together 1 2 have an action greater than the sum of the 1 3 individual actions if there were -- when they 1 4 were acting alone. 1 5 Q: Have you ever done any laboratory 1 6 work yourself on experimental animals? 1 7 A: On what? 1 8 Q: Experimental animals? 1 9 A: Medical school. 2 0 Q: Outside of medical school have you 2 1 ever run a lab to see the toxic effects of 2 2 chemicals on animals? 2 3 A: No, sir, I have not. I have 2 4 supervised labs. 2 5 Q: And where did you supervise those Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067865 15 1 labs? 2 A: Well, I mean I have seen the 3 laboratories, I have had -- I've gone to 4 laboratories where we were going to have 5 toxicological work done. For the first ten 6 years I was with Monsanto we did not have a 7 toxicologist of our own, so I was the one 8 that engaged outside toxicological 9 laboratories and I saw these laboratories. 1 0 Q: When you look to the laboratory what 1 1 kinds of things did you look for? 1 2 A: Well, first you looked at the person 1 3 running it, the types of individuals, what 1 4 their backgrounds were, what their 1 5 reputations were, who their clients were, how 1 6 satisfied the clients were. 1 7 Then you looked at the general 1 8 housekeeping of the laboratories, and then 1 9 you evaluated the man from your -- from what 2 0 you thought his scientific credibility was. 2 1 Q: Speaking of evaluating the man from 2 2 his scientific credibility, do you think that 2 3 is the most important aspect of measuring a 2 4 lab, the credibility and be1ievabi1ity of 2 5 it's scientists? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067866 1 A: Well, that 1 s certainly important. I 2 don't know how to equate that with the 3 facilities of the laboratory, but certainly I 4 would look for the scientific expertise and 5 the credibility of the laboratory director, 6 yes, I would. 7 Q: If a laboratory director was shown 8 to you to be someone you could not believe or 9 did not have scientific integrity would that 1 0 be.-a lab that you would use and depend on? 1 1 A: If it were shown that he was not 1 2 scientifically honest, is that you're saying? 1 3 Q : Yes, sir. 1 4 A : By a credible person? 1 5 Q : Yes, sir. 1 6 A : I f I was sure of the accuracy of the 1 7 statement I would not use them, but I would 1 8 have to be sure of the accuracy of the 1 9 statement. 2 0 Q : Did you have any training outside or 2 1 in medical school in the field of 2 2 occupational medicine? 2 3 A: No, sir. In the 1 9 3 0 ' s there were 2 4 occasional lectures on specific diseases like 2 5 silicosis and asbestosis and anemia from Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067867 __________________________________________________________ ;_______________________________ 17 1 benzene, but individual lectures on those 2 subjects but hot in the general realm of 3 occupational medicine. 4 Q: Did you ever attend any continuing 5 medical education of any sort after your 6 formal medical training in the field of 7 occupational medicine? 8 A: Yes, I've had one or two, several 9 one or two week courses in occupational 1 0 medi c ine . 11 Q: Tell me about those. . 1 2 A: What do you want to know about them? 1 3 Q: What were they about, what 1 4 particular kinds of things did you study? 1 5 A: One, you studied the organization of 1 6 a medical department, you studied the factors 1 7 that could be used in a preventive medical 1 8 program for a medical department. You 1 9 studied -- they did have some, slight, some 2 0 mino r talks in epidemiology, no -- nothing in 2 1 great depth. There was a certain amount of 2 2 toxicology given, the types of toxicology 2 3 testing. And then there was also discussion 2 4 of the various occupational injuries or 2 5 illnesses that were current at that time that Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067868 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 18 1 they knew had an occupational connection. 2 Q: Did any of these courses that you 3 took discuss occupational injury associated 4 with PCB's? 5 A: No, sir, in 1936 PCB's were not a 6 very prominent factor. In fact, I don't know 7 of any courses in occupational medicine -- in 8 the continuing medical education that I've 9 seen devoted to PCB's. 1 0 Q: You mentioned that in 1936, did you 1 1 take any occupational medicine .type courses 1 2 after 1936? 1 3 A: With the exception of those -- well, 1 4 I don't know why I picked the date 1936, I 1 5 graduated in -- I graduated in '36. We - 1 6 some of these one or two week courses that I 1 7 took, one and two week's courses that I took, 1 8 dealt with occupational illnesses, yes. 1 9 Q: Do you remember when and where those 2 0 courseswere? 2 1 A: Well, the one I remember 2 2 particularly was the University of Michigan, 2 3 and that was probably in the late thirties or 2 4 shortly after I went with Monsanto. 2 5 Q: Do you remember any other ones, say, Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067869 1 in the sixties? 2 A: I don't. I'm not certain about it. 3 Q: Did you take any courses in 4 industrial hygiene? 5 A : No, sir. 6 Q: Do you have much knowledge in that 7 field? 8 A: I would consider myself to be 9 knowledgeable in the general field. I had 1 0 four industrial hygienists reporting to me. 1 1 Q: What is your definition . of that 1 2 practice? 1 3 A: An industrial hygienist is an 1 4 individual who monitors the environment of 1 5 the workplace. . 1 6 Q: And do you have skills to monitor 1 7 the environment of a workplace yourself? 1 8 A: No, sir, I do not. 1 9 Q: After you finished your medical 2 0 school did you seek certification by any 2 1 boards or specialties? 2 2 A : Yes, yes. 2 3 Q: And which certifications? 2 4 A: I'm certified in internal medicine, 2 5 I'm certified in preventive medicine under Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 19 WATER PCB-SD0000067870 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 20 1 the sub-specialty of occupational medicine, 2 so I'm certified in two boards. 3 Q: Do you have any training in 4 pulmonology outside of medical school? 5 A: Well, you always have training in 6 your internship and residency, yes. 7 Q: But outside of medical school do you 8 have, and residency, outside of your formal 9 medical education is what I meant. 1 0 A: I probably had a college or 1 1 physician's course in pulmonolo.gy at some 1 2 time. I have a vague recollection of it. 1 3 Q: In the last twenty-five years? 1 4 A: Something like that. Probably 1 5 longer ago than twenty-five years. 1 6 Q: Do you have any training outside of 1 7 medical school in the field of oncology? 1 8 A: No, sir, formal training, no, sir. 1 9 Q: Do you have an understanding of what 2 0 c a us es cancer? 2 1 A: I would get the Nobel Prize if I 2 2 did. 2 3 Q: What is your understanding as to the 2 4 mechanism by which a cancer becomes a health 2 5 problem for a human? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067871 21 1 A : The mechanism that 2 Q: Does it have stages, does one day I 3 have nothing, the next day I have cancer, or 4 is it a process that takes some time? 5 A: Well, it takes some time but there 6 has got to be a beginning. You do have a 7 time when you do not have cancer, and when 8 the cancer starts it presumably starts in a 9 single cell, but by the time -- cancer is not 1 0 a straight line illness. It doesn't go like 1 1 this. It's up and down like this. In other 1 2 words, cancer is not -- it is not a straight 1 3 line disease. You don't get cancer that 1 4 keeps on getting worse. Cancers have various 1 5 rates of progression. Sometimes they 1 6 progress for a while and stay static. 1 7 Sometimes they regress spontaneously, not all 1 8 the way to zero, but they regress somewhat. 1 9 Q: If I tell you the term initiation 2 0 with respect to cancer, what does that mean? 2 1 A: To me it means starting of a cancer, 2 2 something starts the cancer. 2 3 Q: And are you aware of any agents or 2 4 events that can serve as initiators of 2 5 cancers in humans? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067872 22 1 A: WWeellll,, II bbeelliieevvee rraaddiiaattiioonn iiss aa - - 2 can start as a -- can be initiation. 3 Q: How about the term promotor, what 4 does that mean with respect to cancer in 5 humans ? 6 A: It means to me that it's a compound 7 or a chemical that enhances the action of a 8 cancer that an individual already has. 9 Q: Well, if you have an initiated 1 0 cancer without promotion does the initiated 1 1 cancer cause any adverse health, effects in 1 2 your opinion? 1 3 A: It all depends how far along it 1 4 grows . 1 5 Q: Are you aware of any chemicals that 1 6 you believe serve as either initiators or 1 7 promoters of cancers in humans? 1 8 A: Yes, asbestos. 1 9 Q: Okay. And is that an initiator or 2 0 promoter or both or something else? 2 1 A: I don't know. 22 Q: Anything other than asbestos? 2 3 A: Yes, betanaphtha 1 amine . 24 Q: And what cancer does that cause? 2 5 A: Bladder. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067873 23 1 And is it an initiator or promoter 2 or both? 3 A: I don't know. 4 Q: Any other chemicals that you are 5 aware of that cause cancer in humans? 6 A: Amino biphenyl. 7 Q: And is that an initiator or 8 promoter? 9 A: I don't know. 1 0 Q: What cancer is it associated with? 1 1 A: Bladder. 1 2 Q: Anything else? . 1 3 A: Chromium, subchromium salts do. 1 4 Q: What cancers? 1 5 A: Nasal cancers, nasal passages. 1 6 Q: Any others? 1 7 A: Yes, there are chemicals in smoke, ' 1 8 in cigarette smoke that cause lung cancer. 1 9 Q: Polycyclate organics, whatever they 2 0 are called? 2 1 MR. DAVIDSON: Object to the form. 2 2 A: I'm not certain if they havedefined 2 3 what the -- 2 4 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) What would you 2 5 call them as a group? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067874 __________________________________________________________________________________________24 1 A: Polyaromatic hydrocarbons. 2 Q: And how about dioxins? 3 A: That is -- 4 MR. DAVIDSON: Object to the form. 5 A: Are we talking about human 6 cancers -- 7 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Human cancers. 8 A: I think dioxin is a compound in 9 whichthere is quite a bit of confusion, not 1 0 confusion, but in the scientific thought in 1 1 my mind is somewhat indefinite as to the 12 action-- there arepeople on both sides of 1 3 the dioxin problem, visa vie, cancer, and I'm 1 4 not in a position to make a judgment on that. 1 5 Q: You're not on either side then? 1 6 A: I'm waiting to see what happens. 1 7 Yes, that's true. 1 8 Q: How about -- 1 9 MR. DAVIDSON: I would remind you 2 0 that Dr. Kelly is not being named as an 2 1 expert witness. He retired in 1974 and it 2 2 has not been, other than his natural 2 3 curiosity, to keep up with this sort of thing 2 4 or what the current thinking with respect to 2 5 cancer causation is on various subjects. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067875 __________________________________________________________________________________________25 1 MR. WARSHAUER: Okay. 2 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) How about the 3 idea of polychlorinated dibenzofurans as 4 being associated with human cancers? 5 A: I don't think that's been proven. 6 Q: Has it been disproven to your 7 knowledge? 8 A: Well, it is pretty hard to disprove 9 a negative. 1 0 Q: Do you have an opinion whether or 1 1 not it could be associated or should be 1 2 associated with cancers in humans, either as 1 3 an initiator or promotor? 1 4 A: I have no opinion. 1 5 Q: Have you had any training in 1 6 studying the effects of toxins on the 1 7 environment ? 1 8 A: Have I had training in studying the 1 9 action of what on the environment? 2 0 Q: Of a toxin on the environment. 2 1 A: No formal training, no, sir. 2 2 Q: Tell me about the training or the 2 3 experience that you have if any that you 2 4 think would allow you to have opinions on the 2 5 effect of toxic chemicals on the environment? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067876 __________________________________________________________________________________________26 1 A: I've read a great deal about the 2 action of various compounds on the 3 environment. I've talked to a number of 4 people who have studied the environment, that 5 studied the action of various chemicals on 6 the environment. 7 Q: When did the action of chemicals on 8 the environment if ever become a concern of 9 yours ? 1 0 MR. DAVIDSON: I'm going to object 1 1 to the form as being -- . 1 2 A: That's awful hard to say. 1 3 MR. DAVIDSON: Dr. Kelly, hang on a 1 4 second, I'm going to object to the form as 1 5 being vague asto exactly what you were 1 6 asking about with reference to a specific 1 7 time period. 1 8 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Okay. Let me ask 1 9 you this. Was there ever aperiod in your 2 0 career that you became concerned about the 2 1 effects of chemicals on the environment? 2 2 A: There came a time in my career that 2 3 I became concerned about the possible effect 2 4 of chemicals on the environment, yes, sir. 2 5 Q: And when was that? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067877 27 1 A: TThhaatt wwaass iinn tthhee llaattee ssiixxttiieess.. 2 Q: And what chemical was that? 3 A: That was polychlorinated 4 dibenzene -- polychlorinated diphenyl - 5 biphenyl. ' 6 Q: Okay. And I have referred to that 7 as P CB 1 s ? 8 A: Beg your pardon? 9 Q: I'm going to refer to that as PCB's, 1 0 is that all right with you? 1 1 A: It's fine with me. . 12 Q: Prior to the late sixties was there 1 3 a reason that you had not been concerned 1 4 about the effects of chemicals on the 1 5 environment ? 1 6 A: Well, I did say that I did have some 1 7 concern about chemicals on the environment. 1 8 There was stories of acid rain,there was 1 9 stories of -- there were other instances of, 2 0 oh, we had smog in St. Louis where we were 2 1 burning soft coal in St. Louis in the 1930's 2 2 or 1 9 2 0 ' s . I certainly had concern when you 2 3 couldn't look out the window at noon and see 2 4 a block away, so I had concern then 2 5 certainly. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067878 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 28 1 Q: Why did it concern you? 2 A: Well, I lived there. I lived in 3 St. Louis. 4 Q: Did you think it was going to be a 5 human health risk or were you concerned 6 because you wanted to see blue sky instead of 7 gray sky? 8 A: I didn't believe you wanted to be 9 breathing smoke all the time. 1 0 Q: Were you aware of any injury that 1 1 that could cause you? . 1 2 A: Well, it was awful hard to evaluate 1 3 whether or not sinus trouble in St. Louis or 1 4 chest problems in St. Louis were not due to 1 5 the smoky environment, but it was my 1 6 impression that it was and I was concerned 1 7 about that. 1 8 Q: Did you ever read a book called 1 9 Silent Spring by a woman named Rachel Carson? 2 0 A: Yes, I did. 2 1 Q: When did you read that? 2 2 A: About two months after it was 2 3 pub 1is he d. 2 4 Q: What year was that; do you recall? 2 5 A: I don't recall. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067879 __________________________________________________________________________________________29 1 Q: Did that effect you in your role as 2 an employee of the Monsanto Company? 3 A: Not as a role, as my role at 4 Monsanto because as I recall she did not 5 mention any Monsanto Chemicals in this 6 particular book. Certainly she did not 7 mention PCB's in it, and I was not enough of 8 an authority to say whether her premises were 9 valid or whether they were biased. I just 1 0 was not in a position to review the accuracy 1 1 ofherbook. . 1 2 Q: Well, did you even think in your 1 3 mind that her thoughts might have some 1 4 relevance to some of the non-biodegradab1e 1 5 chemicals being made by Monsanto? 1 6 A: No, because the thinking at that 1 7 time was that if you had a non - biodegradab 1 e 1 8 compound similar to what we thought PCB's 1 9 were at that particular time, if the material 2 0 were :put -- if it got into a body of water it 2 1 would lie down at the bottom of the water 2 2 like a lump of coal or a piece of gravel and 2 3 it would be non-biodegradab1e , it was not 2 4 soluble in water. It would not harm the 2 5 environment or the people in -- or the Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067880 1 organisms in the environment. Now, that 2 thinking changed in the late sixties or 3 seventies . 4 Q: You mentioned that and I think I'm 5 quoting you, the thinking at that time, and 6 then you described what the thinking was. 7 What time were you talking about when you 8 were thinking that it would float -- that it 9 would go to the bottom of the water? 1 0 A : Up until 1 9 6 7. 1 1 Q : What led you to think that way? 1 2 A : Well, we have a stable compound, we 1 3 have a compound that is not soluble in water, 1 4 and we didn't think that the material would 1 5 be degradable, and if it is not biodegradable 1 6 we didn't think it would be accumulated by 1 7 the marine organisms. 1 8 Q: See, I don't think the Falcons are 1 9 going to win the Super Bowl next year. 2 0 A: I'm sorry, I didn't hear. you. 2 1 Q: I don't think the Falcons are going 2 2 to win the Super Bowl next year, but I have 2 3 some basis for that. What basis did you 2 4 have to believe that just because it sank to 2 5 the bottom or that it would sink to the Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067881 31 1 bottom, did you do experiments, did you do 2 animal studies, what did you do other than 3 just think it? 4 MR. DAVIDSON: Object to the form. 5 A: I didn't say that was the reason. I 6 didn't say that I had reasons why it sank to 7 the bottom. I said when it got into a body 8 of water it was not soluble. It was a -- so 9 it would not be dissolved by the water. It 1 0 would not be picked up by the water, and also 1 1 we knew that chemically it was a very stable 1 2 compound, which was according to the 1 3 information we had at that time, was not 1 4 amenable to degradation by other factors. 1 5 Q: And when you say at that time that's 1 6 up until the sixties when you beganthinking 1 7 that it might have problems? 1 8 A : Yes. 1 9 Q: And that was the late sixties? 2 0 A : Yes, sir. 2 1 Q: Did you do any experiments to check 2 2 this hypotheses at any time since the time 2 3 you began at Monsanto until the time that you 2 4 first realized that the hypotheses may be 2 5 wrong? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067882 32 1 No, sir, we did not. There was no 2 evidence of any injury from PCB to any of the 3 environment at that time. 4 Q: Well, is it Monsanto's practice not 5 to test if it didn't see evidence of 6 problems? 7 A: I don't know if I can speak for 8 Monsanto. The medical department did not run 9 any tests on biodegradation of products 1 0 before 1970, before the late sixties. 1 1 Q: And nor did the medica 1 . department 1 2 run any tests on the effects of 1 3 bioaccumu1 ation of these products before that 1 4 same time period; is that correct? 1 5 MR. DAVIDSON: Object to the form. 1 6 A: Yes, and at that time nobody did. 1 7 The amount of bioaccumu1 ation studies before 1 8 that time was quite meager. It was not 1 9 nearly as popular as it was in the seventies. 2 0 Q: Have you ever been involved in a 2 1 long term, you personally, not that you've 2 2 hired outside people to do outside Monsanto, 2 3 but you yourself, been involved in the long 2 4 term studies of latent diseases, the onset of 2 5 latent diseases? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067883 __________________________________________________________________________________________33 1 A: I don't really understand your 2 question. 3 Q: Okay. That's fair enough. By that 4 Imean, for example, there was a drug called 5 DES which was given to mothers while they 6 were pregnant? 7 A : Yes. 8 Q: There are people who say that their 9 children have higher cancer rates and that's 1 0 one of the latent effects of this disease - 1 1 of this drug. And there are people who have 1 2 followed these children for twenty-five 1 3 years, these are female children, and 1 4 thirty-five years, in fact. Did you ever 1 5 participate in that kind of study which is 1 6 what I meant? 1 7 MR. DAVIDSON: Object to the form. 1 8 A: No, sir, I didn't. 1 9 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Did you ever take 2 0 a Monsanto employee and follow him from the 2 1 day he was hired until the day he died? 2 2 A: We had a medical program that 2 3 followed Monsanto employees. We examined 2 4 them at regular intervals that would -- the 2 5 interval would vary between one and two Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067884 __________________________________________________________________________________________34 1 years. We followed them until the day he 2 retired from the company. We did not follow 3 him until he died, but if he worked there 4 forty years we followed him forty years. So 5 I would say if that is your interpretation of 6 study of a possible latency that's what we 7 did . 8 Q: Do you have any training in the 9 drafting of warnings? 1 0 A: I don't believe there is a formal 1 1 course on drafting of warnings,.but I've 1 2 certainly had a great deal of experience in 1 3 warnings and caution statements on our 1 4 bulletins and on our labels, yes, sir. 1 5 Q: Who taught you how to do that? 1 6 A: I think it was an innate 1 7 intelligence of my own. I knew what the 1 8 chemical was, I knew what the chemical could 1 9 do, and I knew how to avoid the exposures. 2 0 Q: Did you have any training in human 2 1 factors, how people would react to your 2 2 writings, to your warnings and instructions? 2 3 A: No, but if we are speaking of PCB's, 2 4 now, I know how they reacted. If they 2 5 followed the warnings they didn't get the Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067885 1 illness . 35 2 Q: What studies did you take to see 3 whether or not people followed warnings that 4 you wrote on any chemical? 5 A: Well, I would say that over forty 6 years we had very few conditions that 7 occurred in people that followed our 8 warnings. When I say very few it might even 9 be zero. There have been cases where people 1 0 developed real or alleged injuries that they 1 1 would write to me, the doctors,.the 1 2 customers, and I would answer them and find 1 3 in my experience the warnings were certainly 1 4 adequate based on the results. I don't know 1 5 if I've answered your question. I forgot 1 6 what your question was. 1 7 Q: Well, I don't think you did so let 1 8 me rephrase it a little bit. I understand 1 9 that people do advertising for people who run 2 0 Coke'-a-Cola commercials, for example, before 2 1 they put that advertisement on television at 2 2 two hundred thousand dollars a minute or 2 3 whatever it is they pay, they test market it, 2 4 they take groups of people and they see how 2 5 they would react to the advertisements, see Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067886 36 1 whether it's effective or not. Did you ever 2 test market your warnings and instructions? 3 A: No, sir, I did not test market 4 warnings, my warnings and instructions. 5 Q: Did you ever have any training of 6 any kind to tell you what kinds of words 7 would work and be effective in a warning? 8 A: No, sir, but I must have hit on the 9 right ones because we didn't have any 1 0 problems with people not following our 1 1 warnings. . 1 2 Q: Now I understand after you finished 1 3 your formal medical training, you had your 1 4 own practice as an internist for about six 1 5 months? 1 6 A: That is correct. Well, it was 1 7 longer than six months. It was solely a 1 8 practice, and then six months afterwards I 1 9 became associated with Monsanto on a part 2 0 time basis but I continued my private 2 1 practice until I went in the service in '42. 2 2 Q: When you came back from the service 2 3 did you ever treat a human being with the 2 4 purpose of making them well in your role as a 2 5 medical doctor? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067887 __ _______________________________________________________________________________________ 37 1 A: Say that over, did -2 Q: Did you ever treat somebody to make 3 them well, did you ever give people medical 4 services with the goal being to help them get 5 well after you returned from the military? 6 A: Yes, I certainly did. 7 Q: Tell me how you would do that, in 8 what role? Were you still writing 9 prescriptions for people? 1 0 A: Yes, and if they had appendicitis I 1 1 sent them to a surgeon. I diagnosed and sent 1 2 them to a surgeon. 1 3 Q: When did you stop doing that if 1 4 ever? 1 5 A: Well, I'm still a physician. 1 6 I still see people, I still see relatives. I 1 7 still see the occasional friend. I don't 1 8 think I'm withdrawn from the practice of 1 9 medicine . 2 0 Q: Was there a period of time in which 2 1 the practice of medicine became less 2 2 significant than your role as a manager? 2 3 A: I don't think you could divorce them 2 4 because my role as a manager involved -- 2 5 involved thinking of the worker as a patient, Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067888 1 as an individual, and I saw people everyday 2 at the Monsanto dispensaries. I saw people 3 on my wards at City Hospital. Over the years 4 I taught at St. Louis University in The 5 Department of Internal Medicine. I'm an 6 assistant professor there, I'm emeritus now, 7 but I taught there, so I was not a bureaucrat 8 if that's what you're stating. 9 Q : Well, I'm not stating anything, I'm 1 0 just inquiring. 1 1 A: Well, fine, have I answered it? 1 2 Q: Yeah, I think so. When did you stop 1 3 seeing people in your private practice? 1 4 A: When I went in the service. 1 5 Q: And that was 1942? 1 6 A: That'scorrect. , 1 7 Q: And when did you return from the 1 8 service? 1 9 A: March of '46. 2 0 Q : Did you see anyone outside on a 2 1 regular basis, not the isolated case for 2 2 friend or family member, but did you see 2 3 anyone on a regular basis outside the 2 4 Monsanto company family after that? 2 5 A: There were occasional cases referred Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067889 39 1 to me of an occupational nature outside of 2 Monsanto during my years from 1946 to -- '46 3 on -- '44 on, yes, sir. But those were -- 4 then I was associated, after I retired I was 5 associated with the Barnes Hospital Health 6 Care which is associated with Washington 7 University and I diagnosed -- I diagnosed 8 cases that may have an occupational 9 condition. I diagnosed individuals who were 1 0 sent to the clinic to see, they may have said 1 1 this man has a heart condition,.can he do 1 2 this kind of work? I saw these people. I 1 3 was there on the basis of three hour, four 1 4 hour basis three day a week for about eight 1 5 years after 1974. So I saw people there. 1 6 Q: Tell me about the organization of 1 7 the medical department at Monsanto, tell me 1 8 how it evolved over the years, when did it 1 9 first start? 20 ' A: It started with myself and a 2 1 secretary. 2 2 Q: When was that? 2 3 A: This is after I came back from the 2 4 service. 2 5 Q: All right. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St.Louis,Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067890 40 1 A: You don't want before that? 2 Q: There wasn't a medical department 3 before that; was there? 4 A: Well, I was a plant physician at the 5 Queeny plant which was, Q-U-E-E-N-Y, which 6 was in St. Louis, also called Plant A, that 7 the position there was to take care of the 8 occupational conditions and the injuries and 9 to set up a preventive medical service. And 1 0 then after about a year or so after that if a 1 1 problem arose at one of the other plants 1 2 management would look around and say what are 1 3 we doing? And somebody would say, well, we 1 4 have got a doctor over at the Queeny plant, 1 5 let's send him out. So I was sort of, in 1 6 essence, a medical director without 1 7 portfolio. And then when I came back in 1946 1 8 we set a new department, a central medical 1 9 department was started and I was given the 2 0 responsibility for the overseeing and the 2 1 staffing of medical departments in our 2 2 various laboratories and plants. 2 3 We started, as I said, that was back 2 4 in '46, with myself and a secretary. 2 5 Sometime in '47 or '48 we engaged our first Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067891 41 1 industrial hygienist. In the early fifties, 2 what I ended up, when I retired from there we 3 had four industrial hygienists. Around 1950, 4 I think, or early fifties we engaged our 5 first toxicologist. When I retired in '74 we 6 had four toxicologists. We picked up a 7 librarian along the way, and I think that's 8 the way it evolved personnel wise. 9 Q: Where was the office located when 1 0 you left in 1974? 1 1 A: In St. Louis, in St. Louis at the 1 2 headquarters . 1 3 Q: Did it maintain central files on the 1 4 health of all the employees of the Monsanto 1 5 Company? 1 6 A: The central -- no, at the central 1 7 file, no. The individual files were kept at 1 8 the plants. 1 9 Q: Did the medical department 2 0 headquarters here in St. Louis contain all of 2 1 the inquiries that you had gotten on the 2 2 various chemicals produced by Monsanto? 2 3 A: Yes, there was a policy that was 2 4 stated by the management of all inquiries 2 5 concerning possible ill effects or Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067892 1 information or inquiries asking for -- asking 2 for information about the toxicology or the 3 safe handling of our products would be 4 referred to the medical department, and we 5 kept copies of those. I mean, we kept 6 carbons of those letters, they were all 7 answered. I would say if there were 8 telephone conversations, some of them were 9 telephone, I don't know if I dictated the 1 0 file copy at all on telephone answers that I 1 1 gave, but certainly the written ones we kept 1 2 a copy of. 1 3 Q: Did you keep copies of your written 1 4 responses also? 1 5 A: Beg your pardon? 1 6 Q: Did you also keep copies of your 1 7 written responses in addition to the 1 8 inquiries? 1 9 A : Oh, sure , we kept a copy. 2 0 Q : Did you have a name for that file or 2 1 was it for each chemical? 2 2 A: It was for each chemical, and we 2 3 also, we had a plant file and a product file, 2 4 and anyone inquiring about a product file 2 5 went into the individual product file for Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067893 43 1 that company. If it was phthalic anhydride, 2 P-H-T-H-A-L-I-C, A-N-H-Y-D-R- I -D - E , it went 3 into the phthalic anhydride file. 4 Q: And was there a file for the PCB's? 5 A : Yes, sir. 6 Q: And when did that file first open? 7 A: I don't know. 8 Q: Had it been there when you arrived? 9 A: No. I can't -- there was not -- I 1 0 do.n ' t know if there was a file anyplace in 1 1 the company on PCB's. There must have been 1 2 some information because after I was there in 1 3 '36 to '37 I started receiving copies of 1 4 information they included in the file, in 1 5 somebodyfile. 1 6 Q: Why would that have come to your 1 7 attention? 1 8 A: They were glad to buck the job to 1 9 me . 2 0 Q: What was the job? 2 1 A: Well, at that particular time there 2 2 was a question of would we support work at 2 3 Harvard that was sponsored originally by the 2 4 Halowax Corporation on investigations of 2 5 PCB's and chlorinated naphthalene, Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067894 44 1 N-A-P-H-T-H-A-L-E-N-E. 2 Q: We are going to talk about that in a 3 minute, but let me ask you this. When you 4 would make a response to an inquiry about the 5 effects of the chemical were you able to just 6 write that letter straight out or did 7 management want to review it? 8 A: Nobody reviewed it. I wrote it 9 straight out. 1 0 Q: Did you ever discuss your response 1 1 with management before making it on any 1 2 chemical? 1 3 A: I might have said what is Baker 1 4 Chemical Company doing with this particular 1 5 product, but I didn't say this is what I'm 1 6 going to tell Baker Chemical about the 1 7 toxicology or the safe handling data on this 1 8 product. That was my responsibility and I 1 9 did it myself without anybody editing it. 2 0 Q: Did yousolely decide how much 2 1 information to give the inquirer? 2 2 A: Well, it was easy, I gave them 2 3 everything we had. 2 4 Q: You mentioned to me that Monsanto 2 5 did not have a laboratory for it's own animal Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067895 45 1 studies. When did it acquire such a lab? 2 A: We started discussions about it in 3 1973 and it came to fulfillment in '75 or 4 after I left, I left in '75 or '76. 5 Q: Why wasn't there a lab at Monsanto 6 before that day? 7 A: We didn't have a flow, enough of a 8 flow of products to justify in my mind the 9 staffing of a laboratory. We had -- we were 1 0 getting very adequate service from places we 1 1 were sending the material to. If we had an 1 2 inhalation study to be done we -- there were 1 3 specialists in that. We sent some of that to 1 4 Saranec Laboratory in New York, 1 5 S-A-R-A-N-E-C, Laboratory in New York. We 1 6 sent work on inhalation to the University of 1 7 Cincinnati Kettering, K-E-T-T-E-R-I-N-G, 1 8 Laboratory, and if we had long term studies 1 9 or other studies -- we didn't have the wide 2 0 variety of specialists that you need. You 2 1 need biochemists, you need pathologists, you 2 2 need a great number of people of varying 2 3 specialties that we didn't think that it was 2 4 justified of getting. We were getting the 2 5 data that we needed and the reports were Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067896 _________________________________________________________________________________________ 46 1 accepted by every government authority we 2 sent them to, Department of Agriculture, Food 3 and Drug Administration. They were quite 4 happy with our arrangement. 5 Q: Then why is it that you felt it 6 necessary to change that arrangement in 1974 7 if you had been happy with it before then? 8 A: Well, I believe the volume of 9 toxicological work increased exponentially. 1 0 We were more in the agricultural business 1 1 where it was necessary to do more analysis 1 2 on -- toxicological analysis on herbicides. 1 3 And toxicologist, toxicological 1 4 investigations were just demanded by more 1 5 government agencies. 1 6 Q: Had they not been demanded would 1 7 Monsanto have been interested in doing them? 1 8 MR. DAVIDSON: I will object, that's 1 9 pure speculation. 2 0 A: Certainly because we did an all 2 1 awful lot of work that was not demanded 2 2 before. There was a demand by the government 2 3 agencies. We were not forced into building a 2 4 laboratory because of the government. 2 5 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Who were the Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067897 1 toxicologists that were at Monsanto there at 2 the end? 3 A : At the end? 4 Q : At the end of your career at 5 Mons anto ? 6 A: Dr. Levinsksas, George Levinsksas, 7 L-E-V-I-N-S-K-S-A-S, I think, Levinsksas, Dr. 8 Fred Johannesen, J-O-H-A-N-N-E-S-E-N, Dr. 9 Paul Wright, W-R-I-G-H-T. There was somebody 1 0 else's name I don't remember. 1 1 Q: Were these competent toxicologists 1 2 in your opinion? 1 3 A: Yes, sir, they were all Ph.D.'s. 1 4 Dr. Levinsksas was a toxicologist for 1 5 American Cyanamid when we recruited him, 1 6 American Cyanamid, C - Y-A-N-A-M-I-D . Dr. Fred 1 7 Johannesen was a Ph.D. and was a recent 1 8 graduate. There were no really toxicological 1 9 majors in universities until I guess around 2 0 sixties- or seventies. Most of the people 2 1 were either pharmacologists or physiologists 2 2 gravitated to the toxicology. Dr. Hunt came 2 3 from Johnson and Johnson Pharmaceutical 2 4 House . 2 5 Q: Dr. Hunt? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067898 __________________________________________________________________________________________48 1 A: William, he's dead, he was our first 2 toxicologist. 3 Q: You mentioned that there were no 4 majors. Who would you consider to be a 5 toxicologist now that is someone that is a 6 major or whose work you respect? 7 MR. DAVIDSON: Object to the form. 8 Are you asking him for the names of someone? 9 MR. WARSHAUER : Yeah. 10 ' A: When I said majors I meant a major 1 1 field of study. I didn't mean a prominent 1 2 toxicologist . 1 3 Q: Are there any prominent 1 4 toxicologists to your knowledge that you 1 5 particularly respect? 1 6 A: Well, I think George Levinsksas is, 1 7 he's retired from Monsanto, and I think Fred 1 8 Johannesen is a prominent toxicologist, but 1 9 it all depends what you mean by prominent. 2 0 If you mean by prominent somebody who writes 2 1 a great deal, then I believe you have to go 2 2 to the academicians of the government people 2 3 who seem to have time to do this writing. 2 4 Most industrial scientists, unless they are 2 5 in pure research, don't really do a great Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067899 49 1 deal of literature writing. 2 Q: Among the academicians is there 3 anyone whose name in particular stands out to 4 you? 5 A: No, I haven't been picking 6 toxicologists for quite some time. 7 Q: I understand you were a member of 8 various associations, the Manufacturers 9 Chemical Association, National Agricultural 1 0 Chemical Association as medical advisors on 1 1 those? . 1 2 A: As what? 1 3 Q: In your field as a medical doctor in 1 4 those organizations? 1 5 A : Yes. 1 6 Q: Did you ever discuss PCB's with 1 7 them? 1 8 A: I don't believe in a formal way. We 1 9 certainly -- they may have asked me questions 2 0 about it. These are medical advisory 2 1 committees that you were talking about? 2 2 Q : Yes, sir. 2 3 A: Certainly the N-A-A-C-P, that's the 2 4 National Agricultural Chemical Manufacturers 2 5 Association, the topic did not come up. It Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067900 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 50 1 may have in the Manufacture Chemist's 2 Association but I don't have any recollection 3 of any discussion about it. 4 Q: And did you participate in the 5 Poison Control Center out of Washington? 6 A: I was a consultant. I didn't do 7 much participation. They would send me a 8 bundle of cards and ask me to review what 9 they were advising people to do in a case of 1 0 poisoning. This was not a very extensive 1 1 deal, it was a pro bono deal. And -- 1 2 Q: Did you ever get any cards that were 1 3 related to poisoning from PCB's? 1 4 A: Did I ever get any cards from a 1 5 relationship -- 1 6 Q: You said they sent you cards? 1 7 A: Yes. No, I never did. 1 8 Q: Okay. Well, speaking of PCB 1 9 poisoning, if I was -- somehow had a child 2 0 who drank PCB's by accident, clearly, what 2 1 would be the appropriate reaction? 2 2 A: What would be the appropriate what? 2 3 Q : Reaction for someone who is trying 2 4 to help that person, do you induce vomiting, 2 5 do you feed them salt? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067901 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 51 1 A: Induce vomiting, yes, induce 2 vomiting and watch for possible liver 3 effects. Give high carbohydrate diet. There 4 have been no -- PCB's obviously is an 5 industrial chemical and is not intended to be 6 taken internally. It is not a household 7 compound, so this question never came up. I 8 have never received any letter. It would be 9 a telephone call obviously. I have never 1 0 received to the best of my knowledge a 1 1 recollection of anybody saying I drank, my 1 2 child drank an ounce of PCB's or a teaspoon 1 3 of PCB's. It has a relatively mild to 1 4 moderate oral, LD50, around three point one, 1 5 something like that, grams per kilogram of 1 6 weight. So it is not in the ballpark with 1 7 parathion, P-A-R-A-T-H-I-O-N, or sodium 1 8 cyanide . 1 9 Q: It is not acutely toxic in small 2 0 doses; is that correct? 2 1 A: In small doses, no, but it is - 2 2 it's an industrial chemical that is mild to 2 3 moderate acute oral toxicity. 2 4 Q: Now, have you ever written any 2 5 materials for general publication in any Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067902 52 1 scientific journals or anywhere else 2 concerning the health effects of PCB's? 3 A: No, sir, I have not. 4 Q: How about concerning the health 5 effects of any chemicals? 6 A: I was an author on -- one of the 7 authors on scientific articles on bladder 8 cancers occurring after occupational exposure 9 to para-amino biphenyl P-A-R-A, A-M-I-N-O, 1 0 B-I-P-H-E-N-Y-L. 1 1 Q: And that was one of the carcinogens 1 2 that we mentioned earlier this morning? 1 3 A : Yes. 1 4 Q: During your years at Monsanto did 1 5 any of the people who worked there in your 1 6 medical department publish anything for 1 7 publication in the scientific or general 1 8 press concerning the health effects of PCB's? 1 9 A: Are you talking about safety data 2 0 sheets or bulletins, or are you talking about 2 1 scientific articles? 2 2 Q: I'm talking about things that would 2 3 be distributed beyond the users, things that 2 4 would be in the general industrial medicine, 2 5 for example. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067903 53 1 A : I don't recall. 2 Q: When you came to Monsanto what year 3 was that? 4 A: '36. 5 Q: How big was it then, how many 6 employees, do you recall? 7 A: We had seven or eight plants, and 8 about seventy million dollars in sales, and I 9 guess they might have had less than ten 1 0 thousand employees. 1 1 Q: And when you left in 1974 had it 1 2 grown considerably? 1 3 A: They had fifty-five plants in the 1 4 United States and in Europe. They had sales 1 5 of three billion, and they had about -- well, 1 6 I think I said how many plants and how many 1 7 employees. 1 8 Q: How many employees, you did not say? 1 9 A: I thought there were about fifty 2 0 t h o us and. ' 2 1 Q : When you first got there how many 2 2 well, what was Monsanto then? 2 3 A : What was it? 2 4 Q : Yeah 2 5 A : It was a chemical manufacturing Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067904 __________________________________________________________________________________________54 1 organization. 2 Q: How many chemicalsdid it make? 3 A: I don't remember. Twenty, 4 twenty-five, thirty, I don't know. 5 Q: And by the time you left do you know 6 how many chemicals it made? 7 A: I certainly don't, but they were 8 making plastics, they were making fibers, 9 they made nylon, they made acrylan, they made 1 0 agricultural chemicals, herbicides, 1 1 insecticides when I left, and they made a 1 2 pretty full range of organic chemicals, but I 1 3 don't know how many, a couple hundred. And 1 4 their catalog, I don't recall seeingtheir 1 5 catalog for a long time. 1 6 Q: You told me that or I understand 1 7 that one of the things you did was write the 1 8 warnings for PCB's; is that correct? 1 9 A : Yes, sir. 2 0 Q: Did you write thewarnings for any 2 1 other chemicals during your years at 2 2 Monsanto? 2 3 A: Anything that had to do with safe 2 4 handling of a chemical apart from fire and 2 5 explosion I wrote. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067905 _________________________________________________ .________________________________________ 55 1 Q: How many chemicals do you think that 2 you wrote the instructions or warnings for 3 with respect to human safety? 4 A: Gosh, I don't remember. 5 Q: More than a hundred? 6 A: I would be guessing. I just don't 7 know. 8 Q: If I was to look at, say, 1960, 9 would there have been any other chemicals 1 0 that you were providing warnings for the 1 1 words of which were essentially identical to 1 2 the warnings that you provided with PCB's? 1 3 A: At one particular time the 1 4 government or some states asked for a 1 5 particular type of warning on chlorinated 1 6 hydrocarbons, and that may very well be that 1 7 there was some information somewhat similar 1 8 to information on PCB's on other1 chlorinated 1 9 hydrocarbons, but I don't -- I can't tell you 2 0 any particular chemical at this -- this time. 2 1 Q: Earlier I asked you whether you ever 2 2 did, ever followed Monsanto workers all the 2 3 way to the grave so to speak, and you told me 2 4 that you followed them until their 2 5 retirement. Was there a reason you never Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067906 __________________________________________________________________________________________56 1 checked to see whether there was any kind of 2 pattern in your employees to see if they were 3 dying from the same causes? 4 A: Well, I thought if they hadn't died 5 after thirty or forty years after that that 6 was a pretty long latency period, and I 7 didn't believe that if we didn't have any 8 occupational illnesses at that time we were 9 not going to have any in the future. 1 0 We did have a cancer index that we 1 1 followed people who were insured by Monsanto 1 2 and the insurance was -- at first it was 1 3 partially paid by the employee, then it was a 1 4 hundred percent paid by Monsanto. So 1 5 everybody was -- when it was partially paid 1 6 we had about a ninety-five percent 1 7 enrollment, but then when it was paid by 1 8 Monsanto everybody was enrolled. We did keep 1 9 a record of all retirees as well as workers 2 0 who had an insurance claim for a malignancy. 2 1 That was not an epidemiological study, it was 2 2 an index that we looked to see if there were 2 3 clusters of illnesses at any particular 2 4 plant . 2 5 Q: And what did you call that? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067907 57 1 A : A cancer index. 2 Q: Where was it maintained? 3 A: It was maintained in my office in 4 St. Louis. 5 Q: And did you ever find that there 6 were clusters of any sort? 7 A: I did not. 8 Q: Did you ever compare the cancers 9 that were being experienced to those cancers 1 0 that were being experienced outside the 1 1 Monsanto family of workers, that is to the 1 2 general public? 1 3 A : Did I? 1 4 Q : Yes, sir. 1 5 A: Well, I -- we obviously had a lot of 1 6 cancers of the lungs. After all, thirty -- a 1 1 third of the people in the United States are 1 8 going to die of cancer if they live long 1 9 enough, and of those cancers in men who are 2 0 the predominant sex of Monsanto employees and 2 1 were smokers, an awful lot of them had 2 2 cancers of the lung. I mean, I don't know 2 3 what the percentage in the United States of 2 4 cancers of the lung are in the ordinary run 2 5 of the mill working class male, but looking Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067908 __________________________________________________________________________________________58 1 over the cancer index every quarter I did not 2 see what appeared to be to be a predominance 3 in any particular one cancer, and I compared 4 that in that sense to what I knew was 5 happening in the world at large. 6 Q: But you did no formal 7 epidemiological study; is that correct? 8 A: I did not, no, sir. 9 Q: And the only way to find the answer 1 0 to that question would have been to do an 1 1 appropriate and formal epidemiological study? 1 2 MR. DAVIDSON: Object to the form. 1 3 A: A formal one would certainly be more 1 4 accurate, yes, sir. 1 5 Q: What would you think was the single 1 6 most toxic chemical Monsanto manufactured 1 7 during your tenure there? 1 8 A; Parathion. 1 9 Q: And did you write the warnings on 2 0 parathion? 2 1 A : Yes. 2 2 Q: And what if you recall did that 2 3 warning say? 2 4 A: I don't recall, but we knew there 2 5 was an antidote for Parathion, antipede, and Gore & Perry Reporting Co, St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067909 59 1 we put that on that. I don't think we were 2 concerned about the vapor inhalation, we were 3 concerned about the mist that a person might 4 be exposed to. Parathion, remember now we 5 are talking about a condition that you could 6 get ill very rapidly and conceivably could 7 die within one or two days. We did not have 8 any -- I'm not sure if we had have any deaths 9 in our customers or not. There was one that 1 0 people took our Parathion and mixed it with 1 1 something for tobacco, tobacco use, and 1 2 merchandised this in glass bottles, and there 1 3 were fatalities of that case, but that was 1 4 the only case that I ever recall, but 1 5 Parathion was the most toxic compound we had. 1 6 Q: Did you use the word death as a 1 7 potential risk in your warning? 1 8 A: I can't answer that, I don't know. 1 9 Q: In all the warnings that you ever 2 0 wrote for Monsanto, did death or any synonym 2 1 of death, was that ever used? 2 2 A: No, sir, because we knew that if the 2 3 people followed the instructions and warnings 2 4 we gave them they wouldn't get sick, much 2 5 less die. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067910 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 60 1 Q: Do you believe it was Monsanto's 2 duty or job to be knowledgeable about the 3 toxic effects of it's chemicals that it 4 produced? 5 A: Yes, sir, it was. 6 Q: Do you have an idea in your mind as 7 to who should be more knowledgeable, Monsanto 8 when they made a chemical, or the customer to 9 whom they sold it? 1 0 MR. DAVIDSON: Object. 1 1 A: Well, you've got two factors here. 1 2 One is the inherent toxicity of the product. 13 That is Monsanto's responsibility. The other 1 4 is the exposure to the product, that is the 15 customer's responsibility. He knows how he's 1 6 going to use it. We don't know how he's 1 7 going to use it. So we give them warnings 1 8 that no matter how he uses it if he follows 1 9 these warnings he will be safe. 2 0 Q Did you believe that it was 2 1 Monsanto's role to give information about the 2 2 toxic effects of it's chemicals which was 2 3 both bad for the company or not, that 2 4 reflected badly on the product, that it is 2 5 very toxic, as well as information that Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067911 1 didn't reflect quite as badly on the product 2 that isnot quite as toxic, for example? 3 MR. DAVIDSON: Object to the form. 4 A: I really don't know what you're 5 saying . 6 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Okay. That's 7 fine. If Monsanto had information that a 8 given product was exceedingly dangerous to 9 humans, at what point did you believe that 1 0 Monsanto should tell their customers, if 1 1 ever, about that danger? . 1 2 MR. DAVIDSON: Object to the form. 1 3 A: As soon as we found out. Whenever 1 4 we knew it, if we knew that a compound was 1 5 going to be dangerous to a customer we told 1 6 the customer. 1 7 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) How long did you 1 8 wait, how sure did you have to be before you 1 9 told the customer that this has a potentially 2 0 toxic effect? 2 1 A : Well, I don't think I can answer 22 that. I think it varied by whether we just 2 3 had a hunch or whether we had -- whether it 2 4 1 o o k e d like it might be, but we certainly 2 5 always erred on the side of saying if you Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067912 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 62 have this type of exposure you may have problems. Q: Did you ever keep information about the toxic effects of your products secret from your customers? A: No, sir, I do not recall any instance where that happened. Q: Did you ever in your opinion fail to disclose to your customers that because of toxic effects the product should not be used in certain fashions? . A: Well, in other words, if we were basing an industrial chemical, did we ever tell a person don't use this as a food, is that what you're saying? Q: That would be one example. A: Well, I never said that because we sell it as industrial chemical. We don't expect a person to put it on pancakes. Q: Well, let's take your next example. Did there ever come -- let's take your example and take it a step further. Did there ever come a time that you can recall in which Monsanto was aware that a chemical was being used in a fashion that it came in Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067913 __________________________________________________________________________________________63 1 contact with food, but did not tell all of 2 it's customers that that was a bad idea? 3 MR. DAVIDSON: Object to the form. 4 A: I don't recall any instances like 5 that. 6 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Was Monsanto's 7 interest in making profits from the sale of 8 it's chemicals considered by you in any 9 fashion in the information that you 1 0 disseminated with the chemicals? 1 1 A: No, sir, when I -- if we. are talking 1 2 now about the toxicity of a product or the 1 3 warnings or the cautions or the use of the 1 4 product, the profit was not at all important, 15 it was not a factor. I was never told by 1 6 anybody in management that that should 1 7 influence my decision. 1 8 Q: When you drafted material safety 1 9 data sheets, were they ever reviewed by 2 0 management before they went out with the 2 1 product? 2 2 MR. DAVIDSON: Well, I object, I'm 2 3 not sure he has testified he ever drafted a 2 4 material safety data sheet. 2 5 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Did you ever Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067914 __________________________________________________________________________________________64 1 draft any portion of a material safety data 2 sheet? 3 A : Yes. 4 Q: And am I correct in understanding 5 that the portion that you would draft would 6 relate to warnings and instructions for safe 7 use for humans? 8 A: With the exception of fire and 9 explosion. 1 0 Q: All right. With respect to the 1 1 portion of these material safety data sheets 1 2 that you had responsibility for was your 1 3 writing or wording ever edited or reviewed by 1 4 management? 1 5 A: Well, I can't say that they may not 1 6 have seen it, but I can say that at no time 1 7 was the factual material changed by 18 management. What went on there was what I - 1 9 the information, conceivably, there could be 2 0 some change in semantics or something that we 2 1 might have had to change phrases to get it on 2 2 the label, but the information put on was not 2 3 subject to review by management from the 2 4 standpoint of changing the actual thrust of 2 5 the warning. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067915 __________________________________________________________________________________________65 1 MR. DAVIDSON: We have been going 2 about an hour and twenty minutes. 3 (Recess) 4 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Before we took a 5 break you had used the word semantics to 6 describe some of the changes that management 7 may have made in your warnings or 8 instructions, that they may have changed 9 words. Do you think that the choice of words 1 0 is important in the effectiveness of a 1 1 warning? . 1 2 A: I don't know, I mean I think you can 13 be positive in several different ways. So I 1 4 don't -- I think that there are ways to 1 5 express your meaning in several different 16 ways. So in that sense the choice is not so 1 7 overwhelming or so important, but there - 1 8 all I have to say is you've got to be sure 1 9 your words get your thinking across. 2 0 Q: . With respect to warnings which do 2 1 you think would give the reader the idea that 2 2 something was the most dangerous, and I will 2 3 give you three words, hazard, warning, or 2 4 danger or caution, I will give you four 2 5 words. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067916 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 66 MR. DAVIDSON: Object to the form. A: What I would think? Q : Yes, sir. A: I think it depends on the different product that you're talkingabout. I think that -- I don't know how a worker would react unless I knew how he was going to be exposed to the product, whether or not he would react differently to warning or danger or caution. If it were a product that -- if he were handling dynamite and he hadn't, handled it before I think danger would be a better word. But in industrial chemicals where the hazard -- where the exposure could be -- vary a great deal I don't think I could make a distinction at this time about that. Q: Did you make a distinction when you were writing the warnings that accompanied Monsanto's products? A: What I wrote on there, on Monsanto's labels and bulletins, I put down what I thought was adequate and complete enough to keep the man from having any problem, any harm to himself or to his people who were working around there. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067917 __________________________________________________________________________________________67 1 Q: To your knowledge has Monsanto ever 2 refused to market a chemical that it could 3 otherwise sell at a profit because that 4 chemical was too toxic for humans? 5 A : Yes, sir. 6 Q : What chemicals? 7 A : We had a deicer that was supposed to 8 be used on airplanes. I don't recall the 9 chemical, but it did have some embryological 1 0 problems in females, in animals in the female 1 1 sex, and I said we don't use it.. There may 1 2 have been others -- there may have been 1 3 others but I just don't recall them now. 1 4 Q : When was this deicer chemical 1 5 thought about ? 1 6 A : Well, I have been gone for eighteen 1 7 years so it was about ten years before that, 1 8 so it was twenty-eight years ago. 1 9 Q: Had it been marketed and then 2 0 withdrawn, o.r was it just considered? 2 1 A : Just considered. 2 2 Q : And how was it that it came to your 2 3 attention that it would have, I guess 2 4 enic effects, is that the word? 25 A: Yes, that's correct. It came Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067918 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 68 1 because we had a system which we called our 2 201 procedure in which if a compound were 3 going to be marketed it was sent to the 4 medical department along with it's proposed 5 use and with the chemical and physical 6 characteristics of the material. Then we 7 looked it over from that standpoint of 8 marketing, and either approved it for that 9 particular use, or disapproved it. So I 1 0 believe it came that way. . 1 1 Q: Was PCB ever subjected to that kind 1 2 of review before Monsanto began marketing it 1 3 to your knowledge? 1 4 A: No, to my knowledge, no, because 1 5 when Monsanto started marketing it they took 16 over the product before I came there. They 1 7 also took it over from Swon Chemical Company 1 8 which they acquired from the manufacturer for 1 9 about five - - several years before Monsanto 20 started manufacturing it. So the answer is, 2 1 no . 2 2 Q: Did you ever have any books or 2 3 guides or manuals which assisted you in 2 4 choosing the words that you wanted, that you 2 5 chose to use in your warnings and Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067919 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 69 1 instructions that you wrote? 2 A: I don't know of any books. At some 3 time there were committees of the 4 Manufacturing Chemist's Association, and also 5 there was one committee of the government 6 that may have put out booklets or memorandas 7 that came across my desk, but outside of 8 those I don't recall anything. 9 Q: And did you maintain those booklets 1 0 and memoranda in your library or files there 1 1 in the medical department? . 1 2 A: I don't know whether I did or not. 1 3 They were not very prominent to me as far as 1 4 making my caution statements and putting 1 5 my -- putting the information that I thought 16 was needed on the label. I looked them over 1 7 and that was about it. 1 8 Q: Why weren't they prominent to you? 1 9 A: Beg your pardon? 2 0 Q: You said they were not very 2 1 prominent to me. Why is that? 2 2 A: Well, I don't think they offered 2 3 anything or provided any knowledge than what 2 4 I already possessed. 2 5 Q: What was your practice with respect Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067920 70 1 to advising your customers of possible health 2 risks versus known health risks? 3 A: Well, I didn't give them any advice 4 about non-health risks. I don't'know what 5 you mean by that. 6 Q: Possible versus known, I don't know 7 that you heard me correctly. 8 A: Possible versus what? 9 Q: For example, did you tell people 1 0 that our ABC chemical is thought to possibly 1 1 cause birth defects, or did you,wait until 1 2 that was known before you would tell them? 1 3 A: No, I don't believe we -- if we were 1 4 convinced in our own mind that there was even 1 5 a reasonable possibility of a compound having 1 6 any particular type of effect we would have 17 told the customer. If it were just somebody 1 8 said -- this one individual might say one 1 9 case report may say this may have happened 2 0 when someone was exposed to your compound ten 2 1 years ago, we would not tell a customer that 2 2 because from my -- in my thinking I do not 2 3 believe that was a realistic statement that 2 4 themanmade. 2 5 Q: Did it matter to you the severity of Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067921 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 71 what happened when you made the decision whether or not to communicate this isolated event ? MR. DAVIDSON: Object, vague and unclear. A: Well, first of all that never did occur. But if this man said I took a teaspoon full, my son took a teaspoon full of your medicine and dropped over dead, that would certainly have interested me and that would have been a concern and I.would have run the happening down, and if it looked at all like there was some truth in the statement, in the allegation, I would certainly have investigated, and if it turned out to be true we would have told the customer that. Q: When you put out a warning concerning your chemicals, a warning that you wrote on behalf of Monsanto, did you intend for your -- for the customers of Monsanto to rely on that warning? A : Yes, sir. Q: In your years at Monsanto did you ever take any steps to determine the Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067922 72 1 sophistication or level of knowledge of 2 customers about particular products? 3 A: Did I ever -- repeat the sentence, 4 please. 5 Q: Did you ever take any steps to 6 determine the sophistication or level of 7 knowledge about a particular Monsanto product 8 held by the customer? 9 A : Yes. 1 0 Q % And how did you do that? 1 1 A: I talked to the medical.directors, I 1 2 talked to the medical director of GE, I 1 3 talked to the medical director of 1 4 Westinghouse, about their knowledge about our 1 5 products and I found out that they knew as 1 6 much as I did. 1 7 Q: Did you ever take any steps to 1 8 insure that the warnings and instructions 1 9 that you put with a product were actually 2 0 being followed in the field? 2 1 MR. DAVIDSON: Are you referring to 2 2 him, personally? 2 3 Q: The medical department. 2 4 A: No, sir, we told the customer 2 5 everything we knew about the product. We put Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067923 73 1 the safe handling data on the label. If 2 the -- if we also recognized in some 3 instances that these were very sophisticated 4 companies with medical departments with 5 industrial hygienist departments, and we knew 6 from contact with those individuals that they 7 were as good as we were in the medical field. 8 There were some cases with insecticides where 9 the person was sort of a mom and pop 1 0 operation and was using a -- using our 1 1 parathion and we did check on them, yes, sir. 1 2 Q: How did you do that? 1 3 A: We had our industrial hygienist go 1 4 out to their plant. 1 5 Q: Did you ever find that a customer 1 6 was so careless in the use of your product 1 7 that you just decided not to sell it to them 1 8 anymore? 1 9 A : Did I? 2 0 Q: Did Monsanto to your knowledge? 2 1 A: I don't know anything about 2 2 Monsanto, but the medical department would 2 3 have never made that decision. 2 4 Q: Did the medical department ever 2 5 recommend that the chemical not be sold to a Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067924 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 74 1 customer because this customer was misusing 2 it in a fashion that would be dangerous to 3 humans ? 4 A: We never did because I never found 5 that out. 6 Q: Is a warning which only communicates 7 half of a danger a warning which can be 8 misleading and dangerous? 9 MR. DAVIDSON: Object to the form. 1 0 A: I don't know what you mean by half 1 1 thedanger. . 1 2 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Well, if a 1 3 chemical had effects which ranged from 1 4 irritation to cancer and the warning said 1 5 something to the effect, warning, this 1 6 chemical is an irritant, would that warning 1 7 be one that's adequate? 18 MR. DAVIDSON: Object to the form of 19 the question. It's hypothetical and calls 20 for speculation. It is not related to the 2 1 facts of this case. 2 2 A :You are only putting in one of the 23 statements. Suppose they said this is an 2 4 irritant, do not get on your hands, avoid 25 continuous or repeated skin contact. If your Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067925 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 75 1 clothed are soaked with it get it off, that 2 would be -- protect the fella against 3 irritation, it would protect against cancer, 4 protect against anything. 5 Q: But do you feel like a warning that 6 merely mentioned the irritating properties of 7 the chemical would actually get the point 8 across even though it instructed not to 9 inhale, ingest or absorb the chemical, if 1 0 indeed the danger was much worse than 1 1 irritation? . 1 2 MR. DAVIDSON: Same objection. 1 3 A: Well, you're giving a scenario that 1 4 isn't realistic from my point of view. An 1 5 irritation can occur against -- from one 1 6 application, from one unwise skin contact 17 with a material. If a compound can cause a 1 8 cancer to the skin, it causes cancer 1 9 someplace else after an absorption, that has 2 0 to be a repeated process that I do not 2 1 believe needs to be put on the label. 2 2 Q : Why ? 2 3 A: Because there is only so much you 2 4 can put on the label. There is -- what you 2 5 have to put on a label is how to prevent Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067926 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 2.3 24 25 76 anything from happening, and it's not important from my point of view to tell them what is liable to happen. Q: Now, what I want to make sure I understand, sir, is your belief and your practice in the area of warnings. Is it your belief that a warning that instructs someone, that first cautions them about irritation and then instructs them not to ingest, absorb or inhale the product, would be as effective as a warning that advised about both irritation and a life threatening disease such as cancer, and also instructed them to avoid absorption, inhalation or ingestion of a product ? MR. DAVIDSON: Object to the form of the question as being compound, confusing, irrelevant, not related to the facts of this case and purely speculative. A: I lost my concentration. Would you repeat that? Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Sure. Do you believe that a warning that says something to this effect, this product is a skin irritant, avoid prolonged skin contact, inhalation, and Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067927 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 .1 6 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 __________________________________________________________________________________________77 ingestion, would be as effective as a warning that said this product is a skin irritant and causes cancer, avoid prolonged skin contact, inhalation or ingestion. MR. DAVIDSON: Same objection. A: We are talking about a product that causes cancer in humans? Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Yes. A: Well, I think it depends on the product. The EPA and inthe State of California has put on bags of sand this compound can cause cancer, and I don't believe that that warning is at all effective. If somebody is buying a sack full of sand from the Monterrey peninsula to put in his child's sand box I don't believe they pay any attention to it. So in that particular instance a warning is not particularly effective. I t hin k it depends on the product, it depends on the exposure that the person conceivably could have, and it depends on whether the facts are correct. Q: I want to make sure I understand your response. Do you have an opinion as to Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067928 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 78 which of those two warnings, examples that I gave you, would be the most effective in protecting a man from cancer? MR. DAVIDSON: Objection. A: Well, I have to clarify my statement because in the first place I would have to know, does this material even cause cancer in somebody? Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Well, assume it does from my example. A: Well suppose we do not manufacture saccharine any more. Saccharine if given five percent of the diet causes cancer in rats. If you put down on that warning may cause cancer, should you put down may, that is a half truth by itself, because you would have to say may cause cancer when given in five percent of the diet to rats. So I don't know how effective that particular type of warning is. I don't think I can make a generalized answer to your question. Q: In your role as a person writing warnings for Monsanto did you make the judgment call as to whether to include the more serious consequences along with the less Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067929 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 79 serious consequences, or did you include it all and then let the ultimate user make the decision on how' to interpret your warning? A: I made a decision that if -- that my warnings were completely -- were complete enough to save the worker, to avoid any ill effect on the worker, and I didn't have to put on there this may cause liver trouble if you disregard these instructions. Q: With respect to PCB's then you made a conscious decision not to include liver problems as one of the elements of your warnings? A: On the label. In the bulletins we put out we did say, give all these possibilities of what happened in animals and what happened in acute episodes of breathing the material from leaks at elevated temperatures . Q: When did you start putting that out in the bulletins? A: When it was used -- when we started using it for heat transfer agencies, heat transfer systems, and when we used it for hydraulic fluids, but we always had on our Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067930 80 1 bulletins do not inhale a material above 2 the -- once there was an MAC or TLV 3 established we put down what was the TLV or 4 what was the MAC. 5 Q: When is it, do you recall what year 6 it was that you began putting this more 7 specific information about the dangers of the 8 PCB products in heat transfer mediums and 9 hydraulic fluids? 1 0 A: The possible dangers? 1 1 Q: The specific possible dangers, you 1 2 mentioned the liver problems and the findings 1 3 in animals? 1 4 A: Some time in the fifties. 1 5 Q: Let's talk about PCB's in 16 particular. I know we have talked about them 1 7 off and on, but let's focus on that for a 1 8 little while. Am I correct in understanding 1 9 that Monsanto was the only United States 2 0 manufacturer of that product? 2 1 A: Only which? 2 2 Q: United Stated manufacturer? 2 3 A: To the best of my knowledge that is 2 4 true. I'm not certain, but that's my 2 5 impression that they were. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067931 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 82 have a chlorinated dibenzofuran, let's just call them furans for simplicity. Q: Okay. Do you know who developed polychlorinated biphenyls, PCB's, in the United States? A: No, I do not. Well, I know General Electric has a patent on it so they must have developed it. Q: Did Monsanto make it under license for GE -- under license under GE's patent? A: They made it according to their specifications, they must have done it -- we didn't infringe on their patent, but I don't know the legal ramifications of how Monsanto made it, but I know that some cases we said produced for General Electric and some cases we didn't. Q: Okay. In some cases youproduced for other people like Westinghouse? A: Yes, true. Q: But the PCB was still GE's patented chemical; is that correct? A: That's correct. Q: Do you have any understanding as to how when Monsanto began the manufacturing of Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067932 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2\ 25 83 this stuff in the place of the Swon Chemical Company how it began to market PCB's? A: I guess they took the customers that Swon had, but I don't know. I'm not in the marketing department. I don't know. Q: Well, did anybody ever consult the medical department about potential uses for PCB's to broaden the sales base? MR. DAVIDSON: At any time? Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) In the forties. A: I don't recall whether they did or not. Q: In the fifties? A: Anytime, I don'trecall whether they talked to us. I can't answer that. They may have and they may have not, I don't know. Q: Well, can you tell me some of the products that you understand the PCB's were used in when you first came with Monsanto? A: Yes, they were used as dielectrics. Q: Anything else? A: That was the only one that I recall. They were using it when I first came with Monsanto. Q: And did they developadditional Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067933 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 84 1 products as time went by? 2 A: Yes, they did. 3 Q: Tell me about some of those 4 products. 5 A: Well, they used PCB's as a heat 6 transfer agent. They used it in hydraulic 7 fluid. They used it as a plasticizer. They 8 used it in carbonless carbon paper. 9 Q: Before they used PCB's in these 1 0 applications which came into being after you 1 1 got there, and as I understand it everything 1 2 but dielectric fluid would have been an 1 3 application after you got there? 1 4 A: Everything except thedielectrics, 1 5 yes. 1 6 Q: Correct? 1 7 A : Yes. 1 8 Q: Did they consult the medical 1 9 department about whether there would be human 2 0 health concerns? 2 1 A : Ye s . 2 2 Q: Tell me about that. 2 3 A: Well, hydraulic fluids, they knew 2 4 that there was liable to be some exposure at 2 5 elevated temperatures, and we didn't have Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067934 1 information on long term testing of the 2 material at elevated temperatures. So we ran 3 tests on two of the PCB's for five months at 4 elevated temperatures that simulated using in 5 die cast operations to find a safe level. 6 Q: Did it turn out that that level was 7 safe? 8 A: Yes, it was accepted by the U.S. 9 Government . 10 Q: I didn't ask that. The government 1 1 thinks lots of things are safe are unsafe. 1 2 A: Beg you pardon, I don't hear. 1 3 Q: I didn't ask about that. Did it 1 4 turn out, regardless of the government's 1 5 thoughts did it turn out to be safe? 1 6 A : Yes. 1 7 MR. DAVIDSON: As to what? 1 8 MR. WARSHAUER: As to the level we 1 9 were talking about. 2 0 MR. DAVIDSON: As to what? 2 1 A : Yes. 22 MR. WARSHAUER The exposure to 2 3 hydraulic fluids. 2 4 A : Yes. 2 5 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Have you ever Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067935 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 __________________________________________________________________ '_______________________ 86 heard of something called montar? A: I vaguely remember it and I have no recollection of what it went into or what it was. Q: Somebody told me that it was what was left at the bottom of the cauldron when they made PCB's. MR. DAVIDSON: Object. A: I can't answer that yes or no. Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Do you have any idea of how that product was marketed? A: No, sir, I do not know at this time. Q: Do you have any idea of the health effects of that product on humans? A: If it was marketed we had acute oral LD50 on the material. We did that on all our products that we marketed, but I don't know anything more about it than that. I recall no inquiries from customers and I recall no literature stating toxicity yes or no on the product . Q: With respect to dielectric fluids am I correct that those were called askerals? A: Yes, that's a generic name for a relatively non-flammable dielectric. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067936 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 87 1 Q: All right. With respect to the 2 askerals that contained PCB's could you tell 3 me some of the brand names that -- under 4 which they were marketed? 5 A: Yes. GE's brand name was Pyranol, 6 Westinghouse's was Inerteen. I didn't know 7 any other brand. I-N-E-R-T-E-E-N. We are 8 talking about the U.S.? 9 Q: Yes, sir. Using either Inerteen or 1 0 Pyranol as an example can you tell me what 1 1 the constituent parts of a typical dielectric 1 2 fluid to be used in a transformer were? 1 3 A: Well, I would have to be pretty 14 general in my statement. I'm not a 1 5 manufacturing individual but the product, 1 6 some were complete askeral with a scavenger 17 to pick up chlorine. Some were complete 1 8 Aroclors, I say some, some, some dielectrics 19 were. Some were PCB's with varying 20 percentage of trich1orobenzene . It all 2 1 depends, we manufactured the material for GE 2 2 and Westinghouse's specifications. 2 3 Q: With respect to the chlorinated 2 4 benzene constituent of askerals did you ever 2 5 do any studies to determine the toxicity of Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067937 88 1 that chemical? 2 A: No, sir, there was a great deal of 3 that material in the literature. 4 Q: And were you satisfied that that was 5 sufficient in the - 6 A: Beg your pardon? 7 Q: Were you satisfied that that 8 information was adequate and accurate? 9 A : Yes, sir. 1 0 Q: Did you ever do a study of the 1 1 health effect of the chlorinated benzenes 1 2 with the PCB, thetwo chemicalstogether? 1 3 A : Yes, sir. 1 4 Q: And when did you do that? 1 5 A: I don't know if it was in the 1 6 sixties or not, I'm not sure, but we did our 1 7 package of acute toxicity testing on the two 1 8 materials . 1 9 Q: And did you do that for Westinghouse 20 or GE ? ' . 2 1 A: No, we did it for ourself. 2 2 Q: Did you provide the information to 2 3 Westinghouse or GE? 2 4 A: I don't know'if we did or not. 2 5 Q: Are you familiar with any of the Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067938 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 89 breakdown chemicals of the chlorinated benzenes that would be in askerals? A: Breakdown from what? Q: When it breaks down when it degrades, when it is subjected to heat or fire, or any of those of concern to me from a toxic point of view? A : From - - Q: Chlorinated benzenes. A: From chlorinated benzenes? Well, one of the compounds from -- at.a particular temperature range can be dioxin from chlorinated benzenes, not from PCB's. Q: And did you consider dioxins a toxic chemical? A: Yes, certainly. Q: When did you first recognize dioxins as a toxic chemical? A: The fifties. Q: And why did that come to your attention? A: Because dioxin had occurred in the manufacture of herbicides. Q : Where? A: In Germany and the United states. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067939 90 1 Q: Okay. Did this occur in the 2 manufacture of herbicides by Monsanto? 3 A: Among other people. There were 4 several companies that manufactured the 5 herbicides that had a starting point of a 6 material that could cause -- that could 7 contain dioxin. 8 Q: Where was the facility that Monsanto 9 had experienced these contaminants? 1 0 A: Nitro, West Virginia. 1 1 Q: Had there been any human health 1 2 effects associated with them? 1 3 A : Yes. . 1 4 Q: Were those serious? 1 5 A: There were two typesof exposure. 16 One, we had anuncontrolled reaction in a 1.7 trich1oropheny1 processor in which there was 1 8 an explosion and it formed a condition, a 1 9 product, the residue was a gunk that we could 2.0 not analyze, it was charred material, so we 2 1 did not, but we developed pretty serious 2 2 chloracne from that, and there were also some 23 systemic effects. In our regular run of the 2 4 mill, a run of the mill production we did 2 5 have chloracne, but no systemic effects. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067940 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. DAVIDSON: I would like to note an objection for the record to the last question as to being irrelevant. A: Yes, I should say there were no PCB's at Nitro. Q: What is the systemic effect? A: What were they? Q : Yes. A: Peripheral neuritis, N-E-U-R-I-T-I-S, peripheral neuritis, pains in the -- along the course of some of the nerves of the body, of the extremities. Q: What was the chemical that was used as the scavenger? A: I don't know. It was used in a small percentage and I don't know whether we put it in or whether Westinghouse or GE put it in. Q: Do you know anything about it's toxicity? A: Except that when it had the finished product we tested the whole product so we knew the toxicity of the complete product. Q: Do you know anything about it's qualities as a latent toxin, that is that it 91 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067941 _________________________________________________________________________________ .________ 92 1 would take a long time for it to be a danger 2 to someone, for it to be realized as a 3 danger? 4 MR. DAVIDSON: Object, he said he 5 doesn't even know what it is.How can he 6 possibly know anything about it? 7 MR. WARSHAUER: That's what amazes 8 me, too. 9 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Do you know 1 0 anything about the latent effects of the 1 1 scavenger chemicals? . 12 A: No, sir, not at this time. I may 1 3 have known it twenty years ago but I don't 1 4 knowitnow. 1 5 (Recess) 1 6 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Before we took 17 the break we were talkingabout PCB's. 1 8 A : Yes , s ir . . 1 9 Q: And we had talked a little bit about 2 0 chlorinated benzenes and what happens when 2 1 they breakdown sometimes into polychlorinated 2 2 dibenzene dioxins? 2 3 A : Yes, sir. 2 4 Q: And we talked about your knowledge 2 5 of the scavenger chemical. Now let's talk Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067942 93 1 about the PCB's themselves. 2 A : Yes, sir. 3 Q: Are you familiar with any chemicals 4 which they form, we talked about furans 5 earlier. Okay. So let's focus on the 6 furans. What role does a furan play in 7 Aroclor? 8 A: In what capacity? 9 Q: Does it serve anyuseful function? 10 A : No, sir. 11 Q: Does it belong there? . 1 2 A: It's a contaminant that's not 1 3 manufactured on purpose. 1 4 Q: Can it be eliminated? 1 5 A: I don't know. 1 6 Q: When did you first become aware that 1 7 furans could contaminate PCB's? 1 8 A: When? In 1 9 7 0 when a Dr. Voss in 1 9 Sweden tested Monsanto PCB's and French PCB's 2 0 and either German or Italian PCB's and 2 1 according to his analytical methods he found 2 2 levels of PCB's, I don't recall the amount 2 3 but it was parts per million in French and in 2 4 European PCB's, two European PCB's, but he 2 5 did not find it in the Monsanto PCB's Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067943 __________________________________________________________________________________________94 1 according to his report. 2 Q: And was the Voss study your first 3 knowledge that PCB's could be contaminated by 4 furans ? 5 A: I think so. I'm not completely 6 certain, but that's the first published 7 material I saw. I do not know whether I had 8 some knowledge before then but I doubt if I 9 did, but I don't recall. 1 0 Q: Had you had any knowledge before 1 1 then would you have thought it reasonable to 1 2 share that knowledge with your customers? 1 3 A: Well, I don't believe it was 1 4 reasonable, it would be reasonable, because 1 5 we had tested the toxicology of the product 1 6 itself and the product, if it did contain 1 7 furans which we did not know about we still 1 8 had tested what if any the furans in their 19 parts per million added to the PCB's. If 2 0 you're testing soup you get the whole 21 toxicity of value, of the soup itself. If 2 2 you've got a few extra carrots in there and 2 3 you're -- they don't add anything particular 2 4 to the amount of the toxicity from the soup 2 5 you test, we tested the material. If it had Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067944 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 95 f urans in there we had tested the PCB's with furans. We didn't know until -- in fact, when I left Monsanto I had seen no reports that we had found PCB's, I mean furans in our PCB ' s . Q: By 1974 you were still of the belief that there were no furans in Monsanto PCB's? A: I wasn't of the belief there weren't any. I was of the belief we didn't find them. Q: Were you of the belief they were there? . A: There might have been, yes. Q: In 1 9 7 0 did you think they were there? A: Well, I don't know. It all depends what you mean by -- maybe it was part per trillion or something. I don't know how far down Voss went, but he didn't find any so I believed him. I didn't think he was wrong on us and right on the other two, but conceivably they might have been but I have no idea whether they were, as I said, parts per billion or trillion at that time. Q: Did you have -- when did you first Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067945 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 96 1 have an understanding of how furans could - 2 be created from PCB's? 3 A: I guess sometime in the seventies. 4 Q: And what was your understanding of 5 the process by which furans would be created 6 from PCB's? 7 A: That if they were subjected to heat, 8 if PCB's were subjected to heat at a certain 9 temperature, I'm not sure about that 1 0 temperature, I don't know whether there was 1 1 six hundred degrees centigrade or Fahrenheit, 1 2 there was a window between six and eight 1 3 hundred degrees that they could be formed, 1 4 don't hold me to those two figures, but then 1 5 after eight hundred degrees they were 1 6 destroyed, that's the understanding I had, 1 7 still have. 1 8 Q: In your role as a person involved in 1 9 providing warnings to the customers of 2 0 Mons-a n t o did you ever give them any specific 2 1 knowledge of the -- or information of the 2 2 existence of furans in the PCB's being sold 2 3 by Monsanto? 2 4 A: I'm sure I answered questions about 2 5 that and gave them information about it in Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067946 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 97 the letters that I sent people, yes. Q: Did you tell them about the toxicity of furans? A: I don't recall what I told them. Q: What is your understanding as you sit here today about the relative toxicity of furans versus PCB's? A: I think they are much more toxic. Q: On a scale of a hundred with one hundred being the most toxic substance that you can possibly think of and one being the safest substance that you can possibly think of where would a furan go on that scale if you can use that scale? MR. DAVIDSON: Object to the form. A: I couldn't hear it, what? MR. DAVIDSON: I just objected to the form. A: Gosh, I don't know. I know they are more toxic. They are considerably more toxic than PCB's. How they are in relationship to other compounds, there are all sorts of toxicity, you get hydrogen cyanide. Is that going to be a hundred? That will kill you. They use that in the death chamber. They Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067947 98 1 don't use furans, obviously, so it is 2 somewhat less toxic. It is less toxic than 3 hydrocyanide and it's more toxic than an 4 awful lot of industrial chemicals. 5 Q: When you were at Monsanto who were 6 the biggest customers of the Aroclor 7 dielectric fluids? 8 A: I don't know. I would imagine GE 9 but I'm not certain, I don't know. 1 0 Q: Would Westinghouse be in the group 1 1 of the largest customers? . 1 2 A: Yes, I thought you said the largest. 1 3 Q: The biggest, meaning plural. 1 4 A: Well, I think Westinghouse and GE 1 5 were, yes, were the largest customers. 1 6 Q: Can you think of any other customers 1 7 that were large purchasers of Aroclor 1 8 dielectric fluids? 1 9 A : I don't know.I mean, there were 2 0 other- transformer manufacturers, there was 2 1 Allis Chalmers, there was Packard, there was 2 2 Maloney Electric, but I don't know what their 2 3 relationship was as far as their total usage 2 4 of PCB was concerned. 2 5 Q : What was your understanding of what Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067948 1 Westinghouse knew about PCB's? 2 A: My understanding was that they knew 3 as much if not more about the toxicity and 4 safe handling procedures to be used with 5 P CB 1 s . 6 Q: And how did you arrive at that 7 understanding? 8 A: Well, one, from talking to their 9 medical director who was T. Lyle Hazlett, 10 H-A-Z-L-E-T - T . I met him quite frequently at 1 1 industrial medical meetings, and then we had 1 2 correspondence with their industrial hygiene 13 department. I knew they had very high grade 14 industrial hygienists. They were thought 1 5 of -- one of them was president of the 1 6 American Industrial Hygiene Association. And 1 7 my impression was that they were a top drawer 1 8 medical organization and a top drawer 1 9 industrial hygienist department. 2 0 Q : Did you ever visit their medical 2 1 department ? 2 2 A : No , sir , not that I can recall. 2 3 Q : Did you ever visit their industrial 2 4 hygiene department? 2 5 A: No, sir, I did not. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067949 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 0 Q: Did youever visit any laboratories that they may have had? A: I don't think I -- I don't believe so. I don't think I did. Q: Did you ever - - did you review any literature that they, may have been putting out concerning PCB's? A: After my retirement from Monsanto I saw -- Q: During the period of time when you worked there. A: No, sir, I did not. Q: Okay. After you worked there? A : Yes, I did . Q: What did you see? A: I've seen safe handling data and I've seen safety data sheets from Westinghouse Electric. I've seen toxicological, a toxicological report that I was told came from their files. Q: What toxicological report was that? A: I found out a Dr. Vono11ingen ' s , V-O-N-O-T-T-I-N-G-E-N, report. Q: Did you know at any time while you were working at Monsanto that Westinghouse Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067950 10 1 1 had the Vonottingen report in it's files? 2 A : No , sir, I did not. 3 Q s And do you know when Westinghouse 4 first got that report? 5 A : No , sir, I do not. 6 Q : Did you ever visit a W e s t i n g h o u s e 7 f a c i 1 i t y , a manufacturing f a c i 1 i t y that used 8 dielectric fluids? 9 A : No , sir, I did not. 1 0 Q s What knowledge did you have -- let 1 1 me go back, you mentioned that you had seen 1 2 the safe handling sheets, material safety1 3 data sheets? 1 4 A : Yes, sir. 1 5 Q: And you had seen them only after 1 6 you've left Monsanto; is that correct? 1 7 A : Yes, sir. 1 8 Q: Did you find the warnings and 1 9 instructions within those sheets to be 2 0 adequate? 2 1 A : Yes, sir. 2 2 Q: Is that the same warning that 2 3 Monsanto would have issued had it issued - 2 4 been responsible for issuing Westinghouse's 2 5 warnings for it? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067951 10 2 1 A: You mean -- let's repeat that, are 2 you asking me -- 3 Q: I want to repeat it. Would you have 4 been satisfied to use that same warning 5 language and those same handling instructions 6 for Monsanto's products, PCB products? 7 A: When, what point in time, any time? 8 Q : 1 9 7 2. 9 A: Well, I never really looked at it 1 0 from that point of view, but I would say that 1 1 it appeared to me to be quite adequate, and 1 2 without me knowing what was Monsanto supposed 1 3 to do with their -- I lost the gist of your 1 4 question. 1 5 Q: Well, I was just wondering if - 1 6 A: If I were writing it for 1 7 Westinghouse or for Monsanto or what? 18 Q: That's a better question. If you 1 9 were writing the ones for Westinghouse would 2 0 you have changed anything they were putting 2 1 out in the warnings you saw? 2 2 A: I would have to know more about 23 their exposure. I said I have never been in 24 their plants. I never saw how they used the 2 5 product so I can't comment on their safe or Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067952 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 3 their warning, safe handling data. Toxicity, as I said repeatedly, has two phases. One, the inherent toxicity of the product, and the other, the exposure or the potential exposure. Q: Did they leave anything out with respect to risks? A: This -- what is this? Q: Did they fail to warn of any particular risk that you think they should have warned of? . A: Gosh, I can't comment. I don't know. I don't recall until I scrutinize it that thoroughly. Q: But it is without question true that at no point in time while you were at Monsanto did you review their warnings? A: That is correct. Q: What did Dr. Hazlett tell you about t h eir knowledge of PCB's at Westinghouse? A: Well, I can't quote his exact words but in our conversations he gave me the impression that he knew whatever was in the published literature, he knew there wasn't much in the published literature. He knew Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067953 10 4 1 about the action of PCB's both on animals and 2 the lack of it on his workers. I would say 3 are you having any trouble with PCB's and he 4 would say no, I remember that. 5 Q: Did you talk about liver problems 6 with Dr. Hazlett? 7 A: No, but if I said you don't have any 8 trouble and he didn't have any trouble, I 9 didn't say did you have liver trouble, did 1 0 you have diabetes, did you have -- but he 1 1 gave me the impression he was not having any 1 2 problems with his workers who were exposed to 1 3 PCB . 1 4 Q: Did you ever ask to see his worker's 1 5 health records? 1 6 A: No, sir, I did not. It would be 17 like asking him to see your income tax. No, 18 it wasn't my business. If he tells me he's 1 9 not having any trouble do I want to impeach 2 0 -him by asking him for his records? Certainly 2 1 I didn ' t . 2 2 Q: Wouldn't that be a valuable source 2 3 of information to Monsanto as to the true 2 4 health effects' of it's products? 25 A: I thought I had the true effects. I Gore & Perry Reporting Co. Si. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067954 10 5 1 was talking to a man who was very well 2 respected in industrial medicine who had the 3 reputation of being honest and capable. 4 Q: Did you ever discuss lungcancer 5 with Dr. Hazlett? 6 A : No, sir. 7 Q: With respect to PCB's? 8 A : No, sir. 9 Q: Did you ever discuss furans with 1 0 Dr. Hazlett? 1 1 A: Well, I do not know when Dr. Hazlett 1 2 died, but furans were not recognized as a 1 3 radiant or contaminant of PCB's in the days 1 4 when I talked with him which was ir the 1 5 thirties and forties. 1 6 Q: After the thirties and forties did 1 7 you discuss PCB's and their effects on humans 1 8 with anyone at Westinghouse other than 1 9 Dr. Hazlett? 2 0 A: Did I myself? No, people in the 2 1 medical department did, but not I. 2 2 Q: And what do you understand these 2 3 people in the medical department discovered 2 4 when they talked to people at Westinghouse? 2 5 A: What did they what? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067955 10 6 1 Q: What did they discover when they 2 talked to people at Westinghouse? 3 A; Well, that was not the purpose of 4 their correspondence. They were answering 5 questions that were raised by the industrial 6 hygienist at Westinghouse. We had sent them 7 information on Treon's work. We had sent 8 them information on material put out by the 9 America Industrial Hygiene Association, and 1 0 Mr. Wheeler had quite a lot of correspondence 1 1 with a Mr. Spiker of Westinghouse. 1 2 Q: Well, if Westinghouseknew so much 1 3 about PCB's why would they have asked you for 1 4 answers? 1 5 A : I don't know. 1 6 Q: Did you ever discuss with them the 1 7 potential for dioxins in chlorobenzenes, 1 8 chlorinated benzenes? 1 9 A: No, sir, Ididnot. 2 0 Q: Why not? 2 1 A: Well, the situation never came up. 22 Q: Forgive me if I already asked this, 2 3 why didn't you discuss the furans with him? 2 4 A: At what -- what would be the point 2 5 of the discussion? I said before that the Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067956 10 7 1 amount of furans that were present in 2 Monsanto PCB did not contribute materially to 3 the overall toxicity of our PCB's. 4 Q: Does the level of furans increase as 5 the PCB's are aged? 6 A: To the best of my knowledge, no, but 7 you will have to ask somebody more 8 knowledgeable than I, but as I recall we used 9 some -- we tested some used transformer PCB 1 0 and did not find that aging issue meant -- 1 1 turned it, increased the percentage of 12 furans. This occurred after I left because 1 3 we didn't find any, we were unable to find it 1 4 in our own material before I left, or at any 1 5 rate I didn't know about it. 1 6 Q: What kind of analytical tools did 1 7 you have to use to find these chemicals? 1 8 A: You mean I or Monsanto? 1 9 Q: Monsanto. 2 0 A: Well, they were what they thought 2 1 was a state of the art, but when they went 2 2 over to Sweden they found out that Woodmark 2 3 and Jensen were using gas chromatography with 2 4 electron capture. I don't know what they 2 5 were, but they didn't have the sophisticated Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067957 10 8 1 tools that Jensen and Woodmark had, so they 2 ordered them, but you don't go to Radio Shack 3 and order these things off the counter so it 4 took quite a little while to get the 5 apparatus that they could use. 6 Q: You mentioned the Vonettingen study. 7 What are your thoughts about that? 8 A: I thought it was a pretty well 9 carried out series of experiments for 1936, I 10 believe. I don't know the date of it but I 11 thought it was in the thirties that his 1 2 report was dated. 1 3 Q: Well, did you think it was 1 4 elaborately carried out? 1 5 A: It was what? 1 6 Q: Was it elaboratelycarried out, 1 7 carefully carried out? 1 8 A: Yes, it seemed to be. Yes, he did 1 9 inhalation, he did feeding, he checked the 2 0 ingredients in Inerteen. 2 1 Q: When did Dr. Hazlett die do you 2 2 think? 2 3 A: I don't know. 24 Q: Can you give me a decade? Well, 2 5 when was the last time you communicated with Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067958 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 9 him in his role at Westinghouse? , A: I can't be certain about that but I would know it was in the late forties, and after I came back from the service and I was full fledged medical record, but I don't know when the last time I saw him was and I don't know when he died. Q: Did you have any kind of personal contact with anybody else at Westinghouse after Dr. Hazlett left? A: There was a fella, I think by the name of Clark, but I don't recall too much about him, that was, and I'm not exactly sure if that's the right person or I had thought he was. I knew he was in Pittsburgh and I thought he was at Westinghouse, but I'm not certain of it. Q: Did you ever have any meetings with Westinghouse people in the medical department, or any of your people on your behalf had meetings with Westinghouse to discuss PCB's in particular? A: I think people in the medical department had meetings with some Westinghouse people right about thetime I Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067959 110 1 retired. I was not present at those meetings 2 but that would be in '75, 1 7 4 - 1 7 5 they were 3 industrial hygiene people that met with some 4 other either manufacturing people or 5 industrial hygiene people. 6 Q: When you first started with Monsanto 7 in a full-time capacity after you returned 8 from the war at that time could you tell me 9 what you believed to be the human health risk 1 0 associated with PCB's? 1 1 A: Yes, I believe there was no human 1 2 risk associated with the use of PCB if you 1 3 avoided repeated or prolonged skin contact 1 4 and if you did not breath the material at 1 5 elevated temperatures or in confined spaces, 1 6 I believe that if you had a bucket of PCB's 1 7 sitting on the floor here you could breath it 1 8 all day because the vapor pressure was such 1 9 that you wouldn't get exposed to it a 2 0 significant amount. 2 1 Q: Why was elevated temperature an 2 2 essential element? 2 3 A: Because you have to heat a compound 24 to increase it's vapor pressure. If it's a 2 5 liquid and you don't get any fumes from it, Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067960 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 11 1 1 you aren't breathing it if you aren't getting 2 any vapors, if you elevated the temperature 3 you do. It is as simple as that. 4 Q: Well, take this glass of water, for 5 example, it's at room temperature? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: If I came back in two weeks it would 8 be empty. Where would it go if it was not 9 elevated beyond it's vapor pressure? 1 0 A: First of all, I don't know if you 1 1 came back in two weeks it would.be empty. 1 2 I'm not sure that's true. 1 3 Q: Well, do you think - 1 4 A: It's got a very low vapor pressure. 1 5 Water has a -- if you boil it obviously you 1 6 get steam, but I don't know, if you leave a 1 7 glass of water here in a room, I've never 1 8 checked it, I saw no reason to check it. 1 9 Q: Well, things dry out in rooms 2 0 without getting to be - 2 1 A: Wellsooner or later they dry out, 2 2 but let's be specific. You said if you left 2 3 this glass of water here at room temperature, 2 4 you came back in two weeks it would be empty. 2 5 I'm not sure that's correct. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067961 112 1 Q: All right. Would you agree that 2 some portion of it would be gone? 3 A: Some portion, yes, would be gone. 4 Q: If this glass was full of PCB's 5 instead of water and I came back in two weeks 6 would some portion of that also be gone? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And where would it go? 9 A: Into the air. 10 Q: Okay. Would it be safe for me to 1 1 breaththat? . 12 A: Would it be safe? 1 3 Q : Yes. 1 4 A: Certainly. 1 5 Q: And how is it that you arrive at 1 6 that conclusion? 1 7 A: Because I arrived at it two ways. 1 8 We had people breathing the material at room 1 9 temperature during work, and they did not get 2 0 any illness. We had laboratory tests where 2 1 we ran acute studies that we tried to get a 2 2 saturated atmosphere with PCB's. And they 2 3 were at room temperature and there was no ill 2 4 effects. We had long term testing of five 2 5 months on PCB's at elevated temperatures Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067962 113 1 where we found that asafe limit for PCB 2 Aroclor number 1242, was one million grams 3 per cubic meter, and for 1254 was five 4 milligrams per cubic meter,.5 million 5 milligrams per cubic, meter. That's how I 6 arrived at that time. 7 Q = Well, sir, if people were beginning 8 to show ill effects now and they were 9 beginning to have higher incidence of cancer 1 0 now what would that say to you about the 1 1 levels that you thought were safe then? 12 MR. DAVIDSON: Object, vague and 1 3 unclear. 1 4 A: First of all, I'm not sure that's 15 occurring. You are giving me a statement 1 6 without any facts to show -- 1 7 Q : I said if, I didn't ask you to 18 agree . Only, that if, in fact, people were 1 9 getting cancers now at higher rates and that 2 0 these people were exposed to PCB's at the 2 1 levels that you suggested were safe, what 2 2 does that say to you about your safe levels 2 3 then? 2 4 A : That is a pretty awkward question 2 5 you are giving. As I understand it you're Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067963 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 114 saying if people -- if people were -- I'm supposed to assume that if people were getting cancers at higher rates, higher rates versus they weren't getting any cancers at all under the safe limit, under the maximum allowable concentration, if they were getting cancers later on what would that say about the safe limit? Q : Yes, sir. A: Well, if they weren't getting any cancers at the safe limit the safe limit was still safe. Q: How fast -- how long did you study people at the safe limit to see whether or not they would get a cancer? A: Twenty years. Q: And is this the studyyou told me about earlier that you reviewed your insurance records? A: Yes, well, yes, that'scorrect. Q: Was there any otherstudy? A : B y m e, no. Q: By anyone? A: Beg your pardon? Q: By anyone. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067964 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 11 5 A: Well, epidemiologicalstudies, yes. Q: Like Zach and Mush? A : Yes. Q: And they found increased levels of lung cancer? A: No, they didn't. That is a misstatement. You did not finish the statement. They showed an increase in lung cancer in relationship to the incidence of cancer in the United States in males as a whole. When they took St. Clair County where our plant was located where the majority of the workers lived there was no increase in lung cancer. Q: Can you eliminate the possibility that your plant contributed to the lung cancer rates for everybody in St. Charles County? A: Again, I said you cannot prove a negative, but certainly in St. Charles County there were an enormous amount of environmental factors that contributed, and also the Munch study was not correlated with smoking, and as I mentioned the first thing this morning, if you have a confounding Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067965 116 1 factor like smoking and you do not take that 2 into account any statement you make about the 3 importance of the incidence of malignancy, of 4 lung cancer, is certainly flawed. 5 Q: Is smoking a confounder or a 6 synergistic effect in your opinion? 7 A: You've got two different things. 8 It's confounding as far as the 9 epidemiological problem is concerned. We are 1 0 not talking about synergism, and as far as 1 1 epidemiology is concerned whether or not 1 2 smoking has some synergism on lung cancer I 1 3 don't know. 1 4 Q: Do you think that the exposure to 1 5 PCB's increase a smoker's likelihood of lung 1 6 cancer, or do you have an opinion? 1 7 A: I do not believe so, no. 18 Q: Okay. And how do you arrive at 1 9 that? 2 0 A: Well, you have certain clinical 2 1 impressions that you gather over a lifetime 2 2 of being with individuals who are exposed to 2 3 PCB who smoked or didn't smoke. 2 4 Q: Now, I started this series of 2 5 questions by asking you, what were Monsanto's Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067966 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 117 or your knowledge of PCB's dangerous to humans when you returned from the war. You told me there wouldn't be any if they followed your instructions. A: I don't hear you. Q: I asked you -- A: I heard the first part. Ididn't hear the last part. Q: I think we talked in the last few minutes, that it was your opinion there . wouldn't be any risk if they avoided prolonged skin exposure and inhalation at elevated temperatures and didn't eat the stuff? A : Yes. Q: Assuming that they were somehow overexposed because they didn't heed or understand or follow your instructions, did you understand there to be any disease p r o c esses in the decade after you returned from the war associated with PCB's? A: There were no reports of any illnesses in workers in the decade following my return from the war. In fact, a very prominent epidemiologist and government Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067967 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 118 researcher, Dr. Renata Kimbrell, stated as late as 1987 that with the exception of chloracne there were no reasonable reports of any illness in workers from PCB's. Q: Well, do you think -- I didn't ask you about reports, I asked you what disease processes could be associated with overexposure. Is chloracne one of those processes? A: Yes, or exposure, yes, sir. Q: Are there any others? . A: Yes, you get liver trouble. Q: Okay. Any others? MR. DAVIDSON: Are you still talking about the decade after he returned from the war? MR. WARSHAUER: Yes. A: I'm not even sure about the liver trouble if we are talking about the decades from '46 to '56? Q: (ByMr. Warshauer) Yes, sir. A: Certainly in the time of Treon work we found -- we were convinced that the target organ was the liver. Also, at the time of the Swon episode which was not -- was found Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067968 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 119 to be not due to PCB, but to a contaminant of the Swon PCB1s, there was some liver trouble to the best of my knowledge. Q: What was that contaminant? A: They didn't ever find it out. Q: . Could it have been furans? A: It could have been a lot of things, but they didn't find it out. Q: Any other things that you were aware of in that decade following your return from the war? . A: Any other things? Q: You've mentioned chloracne and livers and you're not sure about the liver. Was there anything else? A: No, sir, I'm not -- I don't know of any. Q: Okay. Let's take the next decade which I believe would be '56 to ' 6 6 , 1956 to 1966, did any other disease processes come to your attention that could be associated with the overexposure to PCB's during that decade? A : No, sir. Q: And how about the last decade you were with Monsanto, '66 to 1976, in fact, Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067969 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 0 that goes a little beyond your formal relationship with Monsanto, but I think I'm correct in saying that you did some continuing consulting work in that last year or so? A: Yes, the last year, 1975, none of that was associated with PCB's. That was all plant problems at two of our plants, at Nitro and Pensacola. Q: Well, at any rate, in that last eight or nine year period did any other disease processes come to your attention that might be associated with PCB's? A: There were none that I thought were significantly associated with PCB's, no, disease processes, yes, sir. Obviously there were allegations by various writers that might have stated somewhat differently, but I did not agree and I believe that the majority of scientific belief was on my side on that. Q: And what were these writers saying? A: Which writers now? Q: The ones who pointed out some additional things that you didn't agree with? A: There were occasional case reports, Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067970 12 1 1 that's what I meant. 2 Q: What kinds of cases were being 3 reported? 4 A: Whenever the man had an idea of 5 trying to make an association between 6 employee's work history and whatever illness 7 he had fallen err to. There were cases of 8 brain cancer, an occasional case of that. 9 Q: Back before you left Monsanto people 1 0 had told you about brain cancers? 1 1 A: No, I forgot that you had that 1 2 qualification in. 1 3 Q : Yes. 1 4 A: No, sir, then the answer is I don't 1 5 recall any case reports. 1 6 Q: You've talked about some of the 1 7 people who were doing research for Monsanto. 1 8 You have talked briefly about the Drinker 1 9 research that Halowax Corporation was 2 0 involved in? 2 1 A : Yes, sir. 2 2 Q: Did Monsanto participate in that? 2 3 A: Yes, they did. 2 4 Q: Where did you have to go to get 2 5 authority to spend the money on that project? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067971 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 2 A: I don't know to whom I reported at that time. I probably talked to the head of the division that made the Aroclors to get the money. Q: Okay. Now were you satisfied with the initial report? A: No, I was not. Q: And what did you do about it? A: I -- this additional report stated by Dr. Drinker that an Aroclor or chlorinated biphenyl chlorinated to sixty-five percent was quite toxic. I was disturbed because first of all we did not manufacture a PCB that was chlorinated to sixty-five percent. The closest was 1262 which went to sixty-two percent, and the other to 1268, which was chlorinated to sixty-eight percent. Q: What was - A: I haven't finished. Q: Go ahead, please? A: So I wrote, I called Dr. Drinker and said what goes on, where did you get a PCB chlorinated to sixty-five percent and he said I got it from Halowax. Well, I said we didn't sell them a compound chlorinated to Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067972 12 3 1 sixty-five percent. Let me send you some 2 production material of the closest one we 3 have to it, that's 1268. So we ran that and 4 found the results were completely different 5 by a factor of twenty, a twentieth as toxic 6 as the material, as the report he hadgiven 1 on the compound that he said was chlorinated 8 diphenyl. It turned out that the material 9 was chlorinated diphenyl benzene, and this 1 0 Dr. Drinker, if you have his 1939 report, 1 1 which I'm sure you have, he stated that he 1 2 was in error in his '37 report. 1 3 Q: If I was to have purchased Aroclor 1 4 1262 from Monsanto in 1937, what range of 1 5 chlorination would that include? How 1 6 accurate and exact would that be? 1 7 A: Well, there were isomers in there, 1 8 there were compounds in there that had 1 9 chlorination of varying degrees, and it may 2 0 have had some fifty-four, they may have had 2 1 some sixty-eight, but the average was 2 2 chlorinated to sixty-two percent of the whole 2 3 final product. 2 4 Q: On any given batch of Aroclor 1262 2 5 did you have knowledge of whether or not it Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067973 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 __________________________________________________________________________________________ 12 4 would have been reprocessed if it had come out at sixty-one percent or sixty-three percent? A: I don't know anything about that. Q: Do you know whether there was an acceptable range set by the manufacturing people at Monsanto? A: Well, there was specifications and I'm sure that they adhered to the specifications, but I don't know what those specifications were either from a dielectric standpoint, from a physical properties statement, or a chemical property. Q: You know Mr. Papageorge; don't you? A : Yes, Ido. Q: And he ran, actually managed two of the plants at which PCB was manufactured; is that correct? A: I knew he managed one of them, I don't know if he did two, but I know he did Anniston. Q: And that was the largest facility where Monsanto made PCB's? A: Yes, it was, yes, it was. Q: If he told me about a range of Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067974 12 5 1 PCB's, a range of ch1orinazation as being 2 acceptable would I be reasonable in trusting 3 his thoughts on that? 4 A : Yes. 5 Q: Okay. Would he know more than you 6 on that issue? 7 A: Much more. 8 Q: On the PCB's that you sent to 9 Drinker for his second study do you know 1 0 anything about the process by which that 1 1 batch was made? . 12 A: It was production line process. It 1 3 was -- instead of putting the material into a 1 4 fifty-five gallon drum and shipping it out 1 5 they put some of it into a couple of quart 1 6 bottles and sent it to me and I sent it to 17 Drinker. It was not a laboratory compound. 1 8 It was a production run compound. 1 9 Q: If Monsanto didn't make a sixty-five 2 0 percent chlorinated biphenyl product then 2 1 what is it that Drinker tested the first 2 2 time? 2 3 A: He tested -- he must have tested 2 4 4465, which is a chlorinated diphenyl benzene 2 5 which is an entirely different compound than Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067975 12 6 1 chlorinated diphenyl, and that one is 2 chlorinated to sixty-five percent. 3 Q: Do you know if Halowax had that 4 chemical? 5 A: No, but if they tested, if Drinker 6 was correct in his statement saying that he 7 tested one at sixty-five percent, that's the 8 one he had because that's the only one 9 Monsanto made. 1 0 Q: You told me that Monsanto used the 1 1 Kettering Laboratories? 1 2 A: That's correct. 1 3 Q: And did Monsanto pay for those 1 4 testing also? 1 5 A: Did they what? 1 6 Q: Did Monsanto also pay for that 1 7 testing? 1 8 A : Kettering? 1 9 Q s Yes. 2 0 A : Yes, certainly. 2 1 Q : And Cyanimide? 2 2 A : Cyanamide ? 2 3 Q : No, Saranec, Saranec, can't read my 2 4 writing here, Monsanto paid for that testing 2 5 also? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067976 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 7 A: Yes. Q: They used a company called Scientific Associates at one time? A : Yes. Q: And they paid for that testing also? A : Yes. Q: Who would negotiate and supervise the agreements with these outside testers? A: Well,I don't think there was any negotiation. We would say we want -- if we are talking about Scientific Associates or the Younger Laboratories which was the two laboratories in St. Louis that we ran acute testing on we said we want this package. We want the compound tested for skin absorption, skin irritation, oral LD50, inhalation at saturated atmospheres, as saturated as you can get at ambient temperatures, and do it. Q: Who picked the animals? A: Usual testing on animals is rats for everything except the skin absorption, and that's usually rabbits because you cannot get as much stuff on a rat's skin. Q: Do you think that animal studies have relevance to human beings? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067977 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A : They have some relevance, yes. 12 8 Q : And what can they help us understand about human beings? A: Well, they can't help us understand about human beings because human beings are a little different species than a rat or a rabbit, but they can tell you what the - presumably the target organ in the animal is and you might accept that as very probably that will be the target animal -- target organism in a human, but again toxicity is determined not only by the inherent toxicity as found out by animals, that's all you can test them on, but it is also, there is a certain clinical observation that you have of workers from the time of the pilot plant, from the research bench to the pilot plant through your manufacturing operation, that gives you a lot of human observation, of human information on the toxicity of the product. Q: Did you ever visit the facilities at Industrial Biotest? A : Often. Q: Why did you visit there often? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067978 12 9 1 A: Because we were running an awful lot 2 of compounds for quite a number of years. 3 Q: What did you think of their 4 facility? 5 A: I thought they were top drawer. 6 Q: What do you think of the integrity 7 of the laboratory as you sit here today? 8 A: All the time up to 1974 when I 9 stopped having anything to do with them I 1 0 thought their integrity was excellent. 1 1 Q: Did they ever change the wording of 1 2 their reports at your direction? 1 3 A: At my direction, no, but at one time 1 4 they changed a report not in the -- they 15 never changed the facts of the report. They 1 6 changed one where we are looking for a 1 7 malignancy for cancers they didn't find any, 1 8 so they had a report that said slightly 1 9 tumorigenic. And George Lavinsksas talked to 2 0 them and said in one of your previous reports 21 you've said no carcinomas were found. Did 2 2 you find any in this? And they said, no, and 2 3 he said well, why don't you say that? That's 2 4 the only thing that I know about 'ever 2 5 changing any wording in any of their reports. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067979 13 0 1 Q: Why did you care? 2 A: I didn't see it in the first place. 3 Why did I say it, why did he say it? 4 Q: Why would Monsanto care? 5 A: Well, if you're looking for a 6 compound to see whether it's carcinogenic or 7 not and you don't find any cancers why don't 8 you say that in the report? 9 Q: And have you read the background 1 0 data of the IBT testing on -- for Monsanto? 1 1 A : Yes, yes . 1 2 Q: And you're convinced that none of 1 3 that indicated either cancer or precancerous 1 4 tumors growth? 1 5 A: Now, wait just a minute, it depends 1 6 on what you mean by precancerous. As far as 1 7 the liver is concerned, what these people 1 8 found was not in their opinion or in mine, 19 precancerous. By precancerous -- well, 2 0 you've got to tell me what you mean by 2 1 precancerous, but the usual definition of 2 2 precancerous is something that's going to 2 3 turn into a cancer. 2 4 Q: And your review of those IBT test 2 5 results satisfied you that there were no Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067980 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 1 precancerous findings? A: That is correct. Q: And I'm not limiting that to the liver, I'm limiting that to any organ on any of the animals sacrificed? A : Yes, sir. Q: Did Monsanto do any toxicological work of it's own before 1973? A: What do you mean of it's own? Q: In-house. A: No, sir. They didn't do it in '73 or '74 either. Q: You mentioned that you had -- in some of the pamphlets or materials that the company PCB's and hydraulics and heat transfer fluids mentioned the possibility of liver disease; is that correct? A: To the best of my recollection, yes. Q: Was the possibility of liver disease ever mentioned in any of your written materials for dielectric fluids? A: It may have. I don't -- I haven't gone over that for quite sometime but it may have, I just do not know the answer to that. Q: Well, do you know whether or not it Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067981 __________________________________________________________________________________________13 2 1 would have been a good idea to put it in 2 there? I mean, what are your thoughts, 3 should you have, shouldn't you have? 4 MR. DAVIDSON: Object to the form, 5 speculation . 6 A: Well, it depends on who your 7 audience is. If you were talking to 8 scientists I think that it is agreeable to 9 put it in. If you are talking of putting it 1 0 on a label or to see it on the factory floor 1 1 by an individual who is not of scientific 1 2 bent I see no reason for putting it in. 1 3 Q: But isn't that the man whomight 1 4 actually get the cancer, isn't he the one who 1 5 would be most interested in having the 1 6 information? 1 7 A: First of all, he isn't going to get 18 the cancer from PCB. Is that another 1 9 supposition or is that part of the -- 2 0 Q: Well, I was choosing that. I didn't 2 1 mean cancer, we were talking about liver 22 injury. Isn't the person on the floor the 2 3 person who might get the liver injury? 2 4 A : Yes. 2 5 Q: Wouldn't you expect him to be the Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067982 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 3 one most interested in the information? A: Well, I think he would be most interested in how to avoid any problems, and our labels that were on there that he saw would have -- if he followed those would avoid any problems, health problems. Q: Did Monsanto ever test it's employee's livers, those employees involved in the manufacturer of PCB's? A : Yes. Q: And when was that done?. A: We did some in the thirties, but the -- late thirties, but the liver function studies at that time were two types, one involved two and sometimes three venesections, V-E-N-E-S-E-C-T-I-O-N-S, venesections, and the other were tests that were not too -- they are all out of date. They don't use it any more. Following OSHA we did do some testing, but I think that was in the latter years of the manufacture we did more extensive testing. Q: So the testing that you - did in the thirties was before you even got to Monsanto; is that correct? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067983 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 4 A: Well, thirties go up to -- through 1 9 3 9. Q: Did you do any tests after you got there? A: Yes, this was in the thirties. Q: And do you recall the results of the test done once OSHA came into being? A: No, because -- no, I don't, and I'm not sure that those occurred while I was still medical director. Q: Have you ever become aware of chloracne cases associated with PCB exposure? A: Have I what? Q: Have you ever been aware of chloracne cases associated with PCB exposure? MR. DAVIDSON: In any place or in Monsanto workers? Q: In any place. A: I'm sorry, the end of your sentence you sloughed off and I didn't hear. Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) I'msorry. Have you ever been aware of PCB exposure causing chloracne anywhere at any plant at any time? A: Of Monsanto's, any plant, any place? Q : Yes, sir. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067984 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A: At the Swon Chemical Company there 13 5 was an epidemic of chloracne at one period of time before Monsanto acquired Swon Chemical Company. Q: Have you ever been aware of chloracne being associated with exposure to polychlorinated dibenzofurans at any time, at ** any place? A: You're not including plants, any p1ace ? Q: Any place and plants. . A: The Yusho episode in Japan was found out by their scientists that furans present in the Japanese PCB, which was manufactured by a different process than Monsanto's PCB and contained different contaminants, both at the time of manufacture and in subsequent use of the product, did cause chloracne. Q: Did Monsanto ever have any kinds of outbreaks of chloracne it associated with exposure to furans to your knowledge? A: No, sir, because in the first place we were not able to find furans during my stay at Monsanto. We did not have any outbreak of chloracne due to any of our PCB Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067985 13 6 1 operations. We had chloracne from 2 pentach1oropheno1, we had chloracne from a 3 herbicide, but not from PCB. 4 Q s You mentioned to me what you 5 c o n s i d e r to be safe levels of PCB's at one 6 m i 1 1 i g r am per liter? 7 A : For 1242, yes,, sir. ' 8 Q : Are you aware of any safe levels for 9 furans? 1 0 A : No , sir, I am not. 1 1 Q : I s there a level of furans to which 1 2 you would rather not be exposed? 1 3 A: It wouldn't bother me if I was 1 4 exposed to seventeen parts per million or 1 5 five parts per million, that wouldn't bother 1 6 me . 1 7 Q: How about dioxins? 1 8 A: Five parts per million I wouldn't be 1 9 bothered about it. 2 0 Q: Do you know whether or not furans 2 1 and dioxins effect living organisms in a 2 2 similar fashion? 2 3 MR. DAVIDSON: Object, speculation 2 4 and vague. 2 5 A: Well, I don't know. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067986 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 7 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) You were talking about the -- or we have talked briefly about the testing that Monsanto had done on it's PCB's. Would it be fair to say that the primary focus of most of these tests was short term acute problems? A: No, sir, it would not be fair to say it . Q: Which of these tests were -- that you were involved in in your years at Monsanto, formally conducted tests or studies, followed workers for long term latent injury? A: Wait, you're changing the ground rules. I thought we were talking about toxicological testing. Are we or are we not? Q: Okay. Let's talk about toxicological testing. Which of the toxicological testing did you do that looked for long term injury? A: The inhalation studies at Kettering Laboratory which lasted for five months were considered at that time to be long term testing. Q: Do you consider them at this time to Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067987 13 8 1 be long term testing? 2 A: For inhalation, yes, I don't recall 3 seeing any inhalation studies longer than 4 five months even at this time. The testing 5 at Industrial Biotest was lifetime studies in 6 the rat, a two-year testing in dogs, plus 7 chickens. 8 Q: When did you first begin to think of 9 PCB's in relation to bioaccumu1 ation? 1 0 A: 1969, around that, '68, '69. 1 1 Q: We talked earlier this morning about 1 2 non-biodegradabi1ity of PCB's? 1 3 A : Yes, sir. 1 4 Q: When you were aware of the 1 5 non-biodegradabi 1 i ty of the PCB's did you at 1 6 that time think about PCB's moving up the 1 7 food chain in a bioaccumu1 ative fashion? 18 A: Just about the same time. I'm not 1 9 sure of the timeframe, but it was six months 2 0 either way, six months following it, because 2 1 the first studies on PCB were 22 inter-environraent. Subsequent to that, I 2 3 don't know the timeframe, it was found to be 2 4 present in avian species, A-V-I-A-N, avian 25 species. Then later than that it was found, Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067988 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 9 I think in the late sixties or '68, it was found to be present, the possibility of it being present in the food chain became evident. Q: Let's go back and look at the forties, okay, in the nineteen forties and fifties is it true that Monsanto was aware at that time that PCB's were n o n - biodegradab1e? A: That was their impression, yes. Q: What was your thought at that time about the accumulation of PCB's. in a bioaccumulative fashion, knowing that they didn't degrade, did you have any idea or put any thought into the idea that they may move up the food chain and accumulate? A: No, sir, I did not because when I considered them to be a stable compound it was not effected by soluability or other factors . Q: Does an animal, fish, shrimp, human, bird, need a high concentration of PCB in their blood or adipose tissue in order to have -- to be suffering from adverse consequences from exposures to PCB's? MR. DAVIDSON: Object. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067989 __________________________________________________________________________________________14 0 1 A: Do they have- to have a high 2 concentration of PCB's in their blood and or 3 their fat tissue to suffer consequences of 4 illness of the disease; is that your 5 question? 6 Q: Yes, sir, yes, sir. 7 A: I don't know if I could answer that. 8 I do know that there are people that have had 9 high concentrations in their blood and in 1 0 their fat who haven't suffered from any overt 1 1 clinical disease, but I do not know if the 1 2 reverse -- I'm not sure about the reverse. 13 Certainly it's some time. I do not know what 1 4 the timeframe of the elevated blood and fat 1 5 levels would be in relationship to the 1 6 illness . 17 Q: Okay. Do you have an understanding 1 8 of how PCB's are metabolized or excreted from 1 9 humans once they are in our system? 2 0 A: There are hydroxylated and then 21 excreted. I don't-- presumably excreted in 2 2 the urine, presumably excreted in the stool, 2 3 but I don't know any more than that. 2 4 Q: Do you have an idea of the timeframe 2 5 it takes? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067990 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 1 A : No, sir, I don1' t . Q s Do you have an idea of the normal well, I guess there is no normal. Do you have an idea of background levels of PCB that might exist in the human beings in this room? A : Yes, sir. Q: And what is your understanding? A: The background could be two to eight parts per billion in the blood and two to five parts, two to ten parts in the fat, per million in the fat. . Q: Does that PCB belong there or does it serve any good purpose for humans to have it? A: No , sir, it d o e s n ' t . I don ' t know whether i t serves a good purpose or not. Q : Do you know if it serves a bad purpo s e ? MR. DAVIDSON: Object. A: I don't know if it serves any bad purpose because almost everybody has some PCB's in their blood or fat. Q: And if it served a bad purpose then everyone would be injured equally? A: I didn't hear the last - Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067991 14 2 1 Q: If, in fact, it was a poison to 2 people at these background levels it would be 3 very difficult to tell because we wouldn't 4 have anybody to compare ourselves to; would 5 we? 6 MR. DAVIDSON: Object. 7 A: Well, you look at the person and 8 examine -- sorry. 9 MR. DAVIDSON: I just object on the 1 0 basis of being vague and unclear. 1 1 A: There have been studies.of people 1 2 with background levels of PCB and they 1 3 haven't found any illness to compare them 1 4 with. Does this man have any illness, is 1 5 this woman sick with anything? Does she have 1 6 any symptoms, any problems? 1 7 Q: Can you rule out the possibility 1 8 that the general increase of cancer seen in 1 9 United States could be associated with 2 0 background levels of PCB's among other 2 1 chemicals? 2 2 MR. DAVIDSON: I object, that's 2 3 ridiculous and vague. 2 4 A: I didn't rule out - 25 MR. WARSHAUER: I'm going to object Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067992 14 3 1 to the objection. It is not ridiculous. It 2 might be vague. There are plenty of 3 scientists that believe that's true. 4 A: I don't hear this side play. I 5 can't hear it. Am I suppose to hear it? 6 MR. DAVIDSON: Just as well. 7 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Just as well. 8 Can you eliminate the possibility that the 9 background levels of PCB's have effected the 1 0 overall cancer rate in the United States? 1 1 MR. DAVIDSON: Object. . 1 2 A: No, but I also can't eliminate the 1 3 fact that maybe it's acid rain, maybe it's 14 eating too much carbohydrates. There is an 1 5 awful lot of possibilities. Maybe it is a 16 general stress problem in the economy. I 17 don't eliminate any of those things. You 1 8 cannot prove a negative. 1 9 Q: Do you have an idea of what PCB does 2 0 to the soles of men's work boots who might 2 1 walk in it? 2 2 A: It all depends on what the makeup of 23 the sole is. If it's rubber it may 24 disintegrate the rubber. If it's a 2 5 artificial rubber it may do nothing to the Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067993 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 soles. If it's leather I think -- I don't know what the action on leather is. It probably may disintegrate the leather, I'm not sure. Q: Have you ever heard of PCB's being considered as an estrogen imitator or a hormone mimicer? A: No, sir, I have not. Q: When was the last time that you read an article or scientific study on PCB's? A: Any kind of a scientific study, I mean epidemiological study, a toxicological study? Q : Yes, sir. A: Last week. Q: And what was that dated? A: Beg your pardon? Q: And what was the date of that study? A: .Well, oh, the date of the study, probably the eighties. Q: Did you read that last week just for fun or1for what reason? A: No, not for fun. In preparation for a deposition of a different suit, lawsuit. Q: Did you ever have an opinion as to 14 4 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067994 14 5 1 PCB's being related -- overexposure to PCB's 2 being related to peripheral neuropathy? 3 A : PCB's by themselves? 4 Q : Yes, sir, 5 A : No, sir, I believe that some 6 contaminants in PCB's may have been claimed 7 to be present in -- to be a causative factor 8 in neuropathies. 9 Q: Okay. Would one of those 1 0 contaminants be furans? 1 1 A: Beg your pardon? . 1 2 Q: Would one of those contaminants be 1 3 furans? 1 4 A : Yes, sir. 1 5 Q: Do you believe that a worker who 1 6 might have read one of the warnings that you 1 7 wrote about PCB's would have been reasonable 1 8 in relying on it for his own safety? 1 9 A: Yes, he was safe. 2 0 Q: Do you know if PCB's effect brain 2 1 cells? 2 2 A: No, sir, I do not. 2*3 Q: In thirty-seven years or 2 4 thirty-eight years or so that you were with 2 5 Monsanto did medical technology change? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067995 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 __________________________________________________________________________________________14 6 A: Certainly. Q: And did the ease at which liver testing and liver function testing could be done, did that change over time? A : Yes. Q: And until OSHA required it did you ever think about doing it because it had gotten easier? A: No, that would not be the reason for doing a test because it's easy to do it. You do the test if you see any indication. If you see a person who is healthy, who has no symptoms there is no since doing a test on them . Q: Am I correct in understanding that from the time you first arrived at Monsanto until at least 1970 the warnings and instructions relating to the toxicology of PCB dielectrics, did not change? A: To the best of my knowledge the warnings.-- you said until 1970? Q : Yes, sir. A: I do not know when we put the environmental sticker on and when we changed the environmental label. Environmental Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067996 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 __________________________________________________________________________________________14 7 label, that was right around 1970, but I don't know if it was late in '70 or in '71. Q: Other than the addition of an environmental label and cautions about spilling and concerns about certain animal life, wild animal life, was there any change about the human risk associated with PCB's during that period? A: No, sir, no, sir, there was not. Q: What does serious internal reactions mean to you ? . A: What was a serious internal reaction to what? I didn't hear it. Q: I don't know. I read that somewhere and I was curious what it means. What is a serious internal reaction? A: Are you talking about in the body or the MR . DAVIDSON: I will object. A : I n. a political sense? Q : I n the body, human body. A: I don't know . I don't believe I used that term. Q: Did you ever see that term used as a warning relating to PCB's? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067997 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 8 A: I don't recall if I ever did. Q: Okay. If you saw -- what would you think about such a warning, that one should be cautious to avoid prolonged skin contact, inhalation at elevated temperatures, and ingestion in order to avoid serious internal reactions? What would that say to you? MR. DAVIDSON: Object to the speculative nature of the question. A: Well, that says you might have a serious problem if you did any of those things .' Q: What is a serious problem to you as the medical director of Monsanto, what would that mean, is that vomiting? A: Again, I don't use that term and I don't know what else was surrounding this term, serious internal problem. I do not put -- I cannot put myself in the mind frame of somebody, mind set of somebody who is using that. I don't know what he was thinking of. If he was writing it for me I would think this is -- could be serious. Q: And what does serious mean to you, is that serious -- Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067998 14 9 1 A: Not trivial. 2 Q: Okay. Well, to some people severe 3 diarrhea would not be trivial. To other 4 people the definition of not trivial may be 5 much more severe. What is trivial"1 6 MR. DAVIDSON: I object, calls for 7 pure speculation without any relation to any 8 facts - - 9 A: I would be happy to look it up in 1 0 the dictionary so that we both know what we 1 1 are talking about, but I don't know what 1 2 you -- if you want me to say what trivial 1 3 means - - 1 4 Q : To you. 1 5 A : To me? 1 6 Q : Yes, sir. 1 7 A: Not of great consequence. 18 Q: In relation tointernal reactions 1 9 what would a trivial internal reaction be? 20 A: Something that made you belch. 2 1 Q: Okay. And in relation to internal 2 2 reactions could you name what you would 2 3 consider a serious internalreaction? 2 4 A: Yes, I think if you had something 2 5 and you started with a diarrhea that would be Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000067999 15 0 1 serious. If you got sick to your stomach 2 that would be serious. 3 (Recess) 4 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) During the period 5 of timewhen you were at Monsanto did you 6 think there was anyone else who had more 7 information about the toxicological effects 8 of PCB's than did Monsanto in the world? 9 A: I do not know what the Japanese had 1 0 as far as their information was concerned 1 1 after the sixties after their problem with 1 2 Yusho. I do not know what the Europeans did, 1 3 but I think certainly as far as the U.S. is 1 4 concerned we knew as much as anybody, more 1 5 than anybody. 1 6 Q: When these Swedish researchers at 1 7 the end of the sixties were discovering PCB's 1 8 sort of throughout the environment, even in 1 9 one of their children's hair, I believe I 2 0 read, did it concern Monsanto that PCB's were 2 1 showing up in humans who had never had an 2 2 industrial exposure to PCB's? 2 3 A: Yes, we were certainly interested in 2 4 it. Remember that we wanted to know whether 2 5 this was a European problem. We didn't know Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068000 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 1 whether these people were exposed to any of the outflows from some of the European plants. We were a pretty small factor in the European PCB market, but it was certainly of interest to us and some concern, yes, sir. Q: When did you -- did you ever decide to tell your customers that PCB's were showing up in human beings? A: Oh, I'm sure we did, but I don't know, when. I mean, I just don't know, but it certainly was in the newspapers., that's where I think I first heard about it, maybe. In humans I don't know when I first heard about it and I don't know what we may have told the customers. Q: Now, as the person responsible for the medical department at Monsanto can you tell me what kinds of safety procedures Monsanto workers followed in the plants where PCB's were made? A : Yes. MR. DAVIDSON: Object to the relevance . A: Beg your pardon? Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Go ahead. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068001 15 2 1 MR. DAVIDSON: Go ahead. 2 A: Well, they didn't get it on them. 3 If they got on it on them they used -- they 4 had gloves and they used -- I think we 5 furnished boots, some type of boot. We had 6 a -- if there was spills, there are bound to 7 be spills around pumps, there are bound to be 8 spills in filling areas, we wiped up the 9 spills and discarded the rags in a closed 1 0 container. We had -- we had at the filling 1 1 of the fifty-five gallon drums,, we had that 1 2 in an area that was ventilated. 1 3 Q: Did you provide them with changes of 1 4 clothing? 1 5 A: At some plants, in one of the plants 1 6 we did, but that was not just the PCB 1 7 workers. By union agreement at our plant in 1 8 Sauget, S-A-U-G-E-T, also called our 1 9 Krummerich, K-R-U-M-M-E-R- I-C-H, Plant, by 2 0 union negotiations people all through the 21 plant were given a change of clothes. There 22 was no exception. There was just not PCB's. 2 3 In Anniston we did not do that. 2 4 Q: Did you encourage people to take 2 5 showers at the end of the shift who were Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068002 15 3 1 working on PCB's? 2 A: I don't know if we encouraged them 3 universally or not. I do not know what the 4 manufacturing practice was. 5 Q: Would that have been a good practice 6 from a safety point of view for workers who 7 were exposed to PCB's? 8 A: It all depends. If they had gotten 9 material on their clothes, yes, not just a 1 0 drop, you know. I don't know what I could 1 1 say, considerable, if they got their 1 2 coveralls soaked with the stuff certainly we 1 3 would change it right then. 1 4 Q: How about respirators, were any of 1 5 the PCB workers provided with respirators? 16 A: They were available. I don't know 1 7 when they were used or when they were 1 8 abandoned. Whenever I was, and I was in 1 9 Anniston probably twenty times, I don't 2 0 recall seeing respirators for the people, on 2 1 the people, and I don't recall seeing areas 2 2 where respirators were needed. 2 3 Q: A minute ago you mentioned that 2 4 there were bound to be spills in pump areas. 2 5 Do you think that in industrial use of PCB's Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068003 15 4 1 it is virtually unavoidable to have some 2 spills and some vapors in the air? 3 A: Well, you've got two questions. 4 Q: Well, start it with spills. 5 A: Spills can occur in any chemical 6 operation. I don't say they occur everyday, 7 but they do occur. As far as material 8 volatilizing at room temperature, the 9 temperature that the PCB's were used, I don't 1 0 believe there was any vapor problem. 1 1 Q: - But some spills were virtually 1 2 unavoidable in normal industrial application? 1 3 A: Well, some are, yes, some are 1 4 unavoidable . 15 MR. DAVIDSON: I would like to note 1 6 an objection on the record as being 1 7 speculative. 18 MR. WARSHAUER: Excuse me? 19 MR. DAVIDSON: I would like to note 2 0 an objection for the record as calling for 2 1 speculation. 2 2 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Can you think of 2 3 any chemicals of which you are aware, 2 4 chemicals or processes of which you were 2 5 aware before you left Monsanto that could Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068004 15 5 1 have term latent effect, in other words you 2 get exposed numerous small occasions, no one 3 exposure being particularly dangerous, but 4 the combined effect may have a detrimental 5 effect on a human down the road? 6 A: Well, we had a -- we were 7 manufacturing plutonium for the AEC they were 8 exposed to radioactivity, and the thinking 9 was that that may have a latent effect. I 1 0 didn't see any, but there was some thinking 1 1 that chemical -- oh, certainly that our 1 2 bladder, our amino biphenyl had a latency 1 3 period. 1 4 Q: When did you first become aware of 1 5 the latency period associated with those 1 6 kinds of either, exposure to plutonium or 1 7 exposure to the bladder carcinogen? 1 8 A: I think he told us when we started 1 9 making it. 2 0 Q: When was that? 2 1 A: Forties, I believe, sometime in the 22 late forties. We started before I came back 2 3 to the service. We were making it when I 2 4 came back. 2 5 Q: Did you see Monsanto as having any Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068005 15 6 1 role in warning it's customer's workers? 2 A: We had a role in explaining to our 3 customers what we knew about the toxicity of 4 Monsanto's products. We had a role in 5 explaining to our customers how to prevent 6 ill effects in their workers. 7 Q: Did you believe that -- oh, go 8 ahead. 9 MR. DAVIDSON: I don't think he's 1 0 finished. 11 A: I haven't finished. . 1 2 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Please do. 1 3 A: We believed then that it was the 1 4 responsibility of the customer to warn his 1 5 customers because we didn't know in what 1 6 manner this material was going to be used and 1 7 what exposure would be contemplated. 1 8 Q: Am I fair if I summarize what you 1 9 said by saying that you believed your duty 2 0 ended with delivery to your customer along 2 1 with the warnings that you did provide? 2 2 A: Well, it didn't end because whenever 2 3 any of the customers would write Monsanto we 2 4 certainly gave them information. 2 5 Q: So in addition to continuing to Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068006 15 7 1 answer questions if I add that part of it, 2 the duty ended with the delivery of the 3 product and the warnings and the answering 4 any questions? 5 A: To our customer's customers, that's 6 correct . 7 Q: Do you have any idea how many 8 people, how many entities to which Monsanto 9 directly delivered PCB dielectric fluid? 1 0 A: No, sir, I do not. 1 1 Q : Could you describe for me what you 1 2 would consider to be unsafe conditions for 1 3 PCB exposure? 14 MR. DAVIDSON: I object as vague and 1 5 calling for speculation. 1 6 A: Well, yes, if the person were to 1 7 swallow it that would be unsafe. If you had 1 8 an operation that you were sucking the stuff 1 9 up through a tube like you siphon gasoline 20 that would be unsafe if you swallowed it. If 2 1 you used it in elevated temperatures for long 2 2 periods of time over the MAC that could be 23 considered unsafe. If you allowed it to 2 4 remain on the skin repeatedly or for a long 2 5 purpose, for a long time, that would be Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068007 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 8 unsafe . Q: Define long time with respect to skin contact. A: Well, I think it is a judgment call on everybody's different points of view. I would say I would just have to speculate on my definition of what long time is, a matter of hours rather than minutes. Q: When you included the term avoid prolonged skin contact or essentially identical warnings in the words, that you wrote, what did you intend the reader of that warning to understand the term prolonged to mean? A: I intended them -- I intended the reader to look at that warning and say in his own mind prolonged means if I get something on me, a considerable amount, I ought to rinse, to get rid of it, I ought to wash it off. I intended them not to consider I'll wait until the end of the day or I will wait until I have lunch before I wash this off. Q: Are you familiar with the Environmental Protection Agency's regulations concerning the handling of transformers that Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068008 15 9 1 have more than fifty parts per million of 2 PCB's in them? 3 A: Not in detail no, sir, that occurred 4 after I left and I don't believe I've read 5 them. I may have read them but I certainly,, 6 don't remember it. 7 Q: Assume that the Environmental 8 Protection Agency requires that transformers 9 with more than fifty parts per million be 1 0 handled basically to avoid all human contact 11 with the dielectric fluids. Do, you think 1 2 that that's just overblown or is that a 1 3 reasonable level of protection or do you have 1 4 an opinion? 1 5 A: I think it's over conservative. 1 6 Q: At what level, if PCB's were in 1 7 mineral oil at what level do you think there 1 8 would be a concern about human health? 19 MR. DAVIDSON: I object and it is - 2 0 I object as irrelevant and calling for 2 1 speculation, not related to the facts of this 2 2 case. 2 3 A: Now, would you repeat your question? 2 4 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Yes, if there was 2 5 mineral oil that was a dielectric fluid and Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 0 it had some level of PCB's in it, at what level in parts per million of PCB's in that mineral oil do you believe people should start handling it with particular care? MR. DAVIDSON: I object again, including the same objection, plus unclear and vague. A: Finished? MR. DAVIDSON: (Nods head) Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Do you understand thequestion? . A: Well, I'm trying to understand the question. We told the people how to handle our PCB's. If the person were using mineral oil with one percent, five percent PCB in it and he handled it the way we tell him to handle PCB's, he would be perfectly safe. He would not need a moon suit to wear. Q: Let me show you a document that we have marked -- I'm showing you an excerpt of a document we have marked as Exhibit Number 2. It is just two pages. Do you recognize what these pages have been copied from? A: No, I do not know where they are copied from. This seems like a pretty old Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068010 16 1 1 document. 2 Q: Okay. Could you read for me the 3 title of it? 4 A: The Aroclors Physical Properties Of 5 Suggested Applications. Application date, a 6 bulletin and so and so, fashioned by the 7 Monsanto Chemical Company. 8 Q: On the second page of that first 9 exhibit there is a section called toxicity? 10 . A: Yes. 1 1 Q: Did you write that or participate in 1 2 the creation of that? 1 3 A: If this label or this bulletin 14 occurred after 1946 I definitely did. If it 1 5 occurred after 1 9 3 7 I very probably had some 1 6 input in it. But I can't tell you because 1 7 they call it Monsanto Chemical Company and it 1 8 was changed to Monsanto Company some time 19 around the forties or fifties. I don't know 2 0 when it was -- when it was written. 2 1 Q: Okay. Well, if you would read that 2 2 toxicity section to yourself? 2 3 A: Yes, sir, I read it. 2 4 Q: Is that adequate information in your 2 5 opinion? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068011 16 2 1 A: I think it's adequate enough as far 2 as the toxicology is concerned. It states 3 that draft ventilation and control of vapors 4 involved in elevated temperatures should be 5 provided and skin protection should be 6 avoided. 7 Q: Let me show you this next one which 8 is also an excerpt of a document that 9 Monsanto provided to us. I have marked this 1 0 one as Number 2 and could you read the title 1 1 ofthisone? . 1 2 A: Physical Properties of the Aroclors. 13 Q: Okay. Do you recognize that title 1 4 page? 1 5 A: Yes, this again is a quite old 1 6 document . 17 Q: Okay. On the second of those two 1 8 pages there is also a title called Toxicity, 1 9 and if you would review that for me? 2 0 A: Yes, sir, I've read it. 2 1 Q: And does that warning appear to be 2 2 adequate to you, or that information about 2 3 toxicity appear to be adequate? 2 4 A: Well, I think it states that 2 5 prolonged exposure of vapors at high Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068012 16 3 1 temperatures or by repeated oral ingestion 2 will lead to systemic toxic effects. That's 3 adequate and that's correct. Repeated bodily 4 contact with the liquid Aroclors may lead to 5 an acneform skin eruption. At that time and 6 even subsequently people believed that an 7 acneform skin eruption, if you didn't get 8 that you would not get the anti-systemic 9 effects. So that's pretty adequate. 1 0 Suitable draft ventilation and control of 1 1 vapors at elevated temperatures., as well as 1 2 protection by suitable garments from 1 3 extensive bodily contact with liquid Aroclors 1 4 should prevent any untoward effects, I think 1 5 that's adequate. 1 6 Q : Okay. 1 7 MR. DAVIDSON: Just to clarify the 1 8 record, you were reading at that time from 1 9 what Mr. Warshauer has marked as Exhibit 2; 2 0 is that correct? 2 1 A : Yes. 22 23 2 .' MR. WARSHAUER: Page two of Exhibit 24 MR. DAVIDSON: Page two of Exhibit 2 5 2, and earlier he was reading -- you read Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068013 16 4 1 from page two of Exhibit 1. 2 A : Right. 3 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) I show you what 4 we have marked as Number 3. In fact, let me 5 show you Number 4 first so we can get this in 6 some sort of what I understand to be 7 sequential order. 8 MR. DAVIDSON: And do you want him 9 to look at 4 first? 1 0 Q: Yes, let me take a look at 4 first, 1 1 please,, sir. Were you looking at 4 for me? 1 2 A: 4 first before 3? 1 3 Q: Before 3. With respect to Exhibit 1 4 Number 4 have you ever seen that document 1 5 before or what it purports to be? 1 6 A: Yes, yes, I have. 1 7 Q: Did you prepare or participate in 1 8 the preparation of any of the information on 1 9 that document concerning warnings and 2 0 toxicity? 2 1 A : Yes. 2 2 Q: And what is thatdocument? 2 3 A: It's a safety data sheet, material 2 4 safety data sheet either required or asked 2 5 for by the U.S. Department of Labor. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068014 16 5 1 Q: All right. Do you think the 2 information provided on that sheet with 3 respect to the toxicity of the Aroclor 4 product, PCB product, is adequate? 5 A: Well, we should have put on -- it 6 says, I don't know,limit, threshold limit 7 value, we didn't say none available. That 8 must have been an oversight because by the 9 time these safety data sheets came out we 1 0 knew what the maximum allowable concentration 1 1 was, but other than that, yes, I think it was 1 2 adequate. Avoid skin and eye contact, avoid 1 3 inhalation of vapors, yes, sir. 1 4 Q: Take a look at Number 3 now. What 1 5 date was Number 4, do you have an idea? Did 1 6 you participate in preparing that before you 1 7 left Monsanto? 1 8 A : Yes, sir. 1 9 Q : Okay. 20 A: Yes, I'veread it. 2 1 Q: And do you know when that was 2 2 prepared? 2 3 A: I think it must have been after I 2 4 had gone because I don't know when the TASCA 2 5 regulations came out. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068015 16 6 1 Q: Did you have any participation in 2 preparing it? 3 A: I don't recall this. 4 Q: Okay. Do you think the information 5 that it reflects with respect to toxicity and 6 handling procedures for PCB are adequate? 7 MR. DAVIDSON: Object. 8 A: Yes, sir, I can't read some of it. 9 I can't read the caution label. I can't read 1 0 that, but certainly it appears adequate to 1 1 me. 12 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Okay. Let me 1 3 show you what we've -- what I've marked as 1 4 Exhibit Number 5, and I've put a couple 1 5 little pieces of sticker there to cover some 1 6 numbers that I use internally that aren't 1 7 relevant here, but the big sticker has the 5 1 8 on it. 1 9 Can you take a moment to look at 2 0 that and tell me what you - 2 1 A: Yes, I remember this quite well. 2 2 Q: Okay. And what is that? 2 3 A: That's a memorandum from me to 2 4 Dr. Barrett at our London office. 2 5 Q: When is it dated? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068016 ____________ '_____________________________________________________________________________ 16 7 1 A: 1955, September the 20th. 2 Q: And the bottom paragraph of the 3 first page, you seem to be concerned about 4 what juries would think. Why is it in 1955 5 you had a concern about juries and liver 6 injury from your PCB chemicals? 7 A: Well, the liver injury -- you've got 8 two questions in there. Let's take liver 9 injury first. We knew that material in 1 0 elevated temperatures or in confined spaces 1 1 over enough period of time could cause liver 1 2 injury. We also knew that -- I also believed 1 3 that if we had such a situation and we were 1 4 talking about MAC'S, the jury would not pay a 1 5 great deal of attention to it because in the 1 6 first place in England I didn't know how they 17 were going to use it. For all I knew they 1 8 might have been using it as a household 1 9 product where there would be no possibility 2 0 of an MAC being proven. And that was my 21 impression. Maybe I was wrong and the 2 2 impression is that I don't have the 2 3 experience with jurors that lawyers do, but 2 4 that's the impression that I had at that 2 5 time. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068017 16 8 1 Q: Well, was it your role as the person 2 in the medical department to be concerned 3 about legal liability? 4 A : No, sir, it was not. 5 Q : Then why would you have written it? 6 A : Why? I don't know what I was 7 thinking in 1955. 8 Q : I show you what we have marked as 9 Number 6. Have you ever seen that? 10 A: Yes, I've seen it. I don't know 11 when I saw it. I don't know whe.n I first saw 12 it. This was a rough draft dated 11/10/59 if 1 3 that is -- 1 4 Q : Is it '69 or '59? 1 5 A: Oh, '69, sorry, '69. 1 6 Q: And did you ever see the final of 1 7 that? 1 8 A: I don't know if I did or not. 1 9 Q: Were you involved or consulted at 2 0 all in the preparation of a PCB abatement 2 1 plan or PCB handling plan? 2 2 A: Well, Wheeler was and Wheeler and I 2 3 discussed it, so indirectly I was consulted. 2 4 Q: Who were the people involved in 2 5 preparing that to your recollection? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068018 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 9 A: Let's see what page that's on. Q: I think I can find it for you. A: Can you find it? Q: Would it be an ad hoc committee consisting of Mr.'s Farrar, Hodges, John, Richard and Wheeler if you look right there? A: Farrar, F-A-R-R-A-R, is a research chemist. Paul Hodges was in the manufacturing department, I don't know who John was, whether he was in public relations and I just don't know. Richard.was in the research department and Wheeler was in the medical department. Q: On November the 10th of 1969 was Monsanto already aware of the Yusho incident? A : Yes, sir Q: And was it aware of the Yucheng incident? A: No, that occurred in the seventies. Q: It says here on the fourth page of this internal memo number three, man, and I'm quoting, there is no harmful effect known to man or other mammals after forty years of production. Investigations are under way by various sources. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068019 17 0 1 Do you know why these gentleman 2 would have written that after Yusho and with 3 the knowledge that chloracne was a harmful 4 effect, that liver disease was a harmful 5 effect? 6 A: They said in production, didn't they 7 say that? 8 Q: No, they said after forty years of 9 production. 1 0 A: Yes, but the way I read this 1 1 after -- well, maybe that's why.it was a 12 rough draft. They may have -- I cannot - 1 3 this was after Yusho and I had thought they 1 4 were referring to production, but I don't 1 5 know why they bring the term mammals in there 1 6 because we didn't have any of those in the 17 production department outside of man. I 1 8 don't know why it said there and I don't know 1 9 if it would be -- 2 0 Q: Was that Monsanto's official company 2 1 position that it was not harmful to man? 2 2 A:, No, it wasn't our official position. 2 3 Q: In 1969 what was the official public 2 4 position? 2 5 A: That if you got a sufficient amount Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068020 17 1 1 by inhalation, if you got a sufficient amount 2 by skin absorption, you could get systemic 3 illness as well as chloracne. Also, if you 4 treated the material in such a way that - 5 oh, at that time we didn't know what the 6 cause of Yusho was in '69, but we knew that 7 the Japanese PCB would, ingested, cause quite 8 a bit of trouble in about a thousand people. 9 That was Monsanto's official position. You 1 0 are taking a rough draft so I don't -- I 1 1 don't know what the final draft.was if any. 1 2 Q: Had all your customers been advised 1 3 of PCB related toxicity by the date of this 1 4 memo, November of 1969? 1 5 A : I don't know. Well, it says on page 1 6 five, I'm quoting, all customers using the 1 7 products have not been officially notified 1 8 about known effects, nor our labels carry 1 9 this information. 2 0 Q : Was that a true statement? 21 A: I don't know if it was or not. I 2 2 mean, remember the labels -- he's talking 23 about known effects. In other words, our 2 4 labels do not say could cause chloracne if 2 5 you get too much on you over a prolonged Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068021 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 2 period of time. Our labels did not say you were liable to get liver problems if you are exposed to vapors at elevated temperatures, it didn't say that. Q: Did it - MR.. DAVIDSON: Are you finished? A: Yes, and I'm also saying here you're taking a draft statement which was supposed to be an internal document, and I don't know what the -- this is the first draft. I would like to see the finished product of the draft of the memorandum. I don't recall seeing one, but -- Q: Did any of the gentleman who worked on -- whose names appear ashaving worked on the ad hoc committee that wrote that draft ever discuss with you in 1969 or at any time after November of 1969 the possibility of changing the warnings and the labels to be more specific? A: Remember, you have two things. The labels and the warnings, we did not discuss changing the labels. We may have discussed changing the information in our bulletins to include more information. I don't know if we Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068022 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 3 did or not. Not more information, but different types of information. Q: Do you remember attending some sort of meeting in Massachusetts along with Dr. Drinker and others maybe in 1936 or 7? A : Ye s , I do . Q: And at that time did they discuss an association between chloracne and PCB's? A: They discussed primarily the association between the use of Halowax compounds, which were primarily chlorinated napthalamine of various chlorine concentrations. In one of the Halowax compounds, a ten percent solution, a ten percent amount of chlorinated diphenyl benzene was used. This was mistakenly referred to as chlorinated diphenyls and that's what they discussed. Q: Let me show you what I've marked as Plaintiff's Number 9. It has another sticker on it so that we won't get confused about stickering down the road. And have you ever seen that? A: Yes, I have. Q: Okay. What is it? Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068023 17 4 1 A: This is part of the minutes of the 2 meeting of the corporate development 3 committee at Monsanto. 4 Q: How did it first come to your 5 attention? 6 A: I was sent a copy of it. 7 Q: Contemporaneously in 1969? 8 A: That's correct. 9 Q: Let me ask you that same question 1 0 about Number 6, this draft of the pollution 1 1 abatement plan? . 1 2 A: I don't know whether I ever saw 1 3 that. 1 4 Q: You don't know if you saw that while 1 5 you were at Westinghouse? 1 6 A : I was never a t Westingh o u s e . 1 7 Q : At Monsanto 7 1 8 A : No , I don't r e call i f I ever saw it 19 then or not. I don ' t know i f I did. 2 0 Q: Looking back at the one in your hand 2 1 which I believe is Number 9, it talks there 2 2 on the third page about changing the 23 packaging of the Aroclors. Did they ever 2 4 discuss that with you? 2 5 A: Wait until I see what it says. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068024 __________________________________________________________________________________________17 5 1 Packaging? No, I believe that was -- no, 2 they did not discuss new packaging systems 3 for Aroclors with me. That was a 4 manufacturer decision. I would have nothing 5 to do with that. 6 Q: Well, with respect to packaging for 7 Aroclors if there was going to be a warning 8 or a label would that have involved you? 9 A: It certainly would have. 1 0 Q: And do you recall anybody coming to 1 1 you in 1969 or even in 1970 and.asking you 1 2 about that? 1 3 A: I don't remember. 1 4 MR. DAVIDSON: You're referring to 1 5 about the packaging? 1 6 MR. WARSHAUER: About to the extent 1 7 that he would be involved in the packaging 1 8 with the warnings and the labels. 1 9 A: Well, I was involved in all warning 2 0 labels no matter what type of package it went 21 on. That was company policy. 22 MR. DAVIDSON: I think he has 2 3 already testified about labeling changes that 2 4 occurred in 1970. 2 5 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) I've handed you a Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068025 17 6 1 document Number 10. I had a poor photocopy 2 and it has been retyped so that it is a 3 little more legible. 4 A : Yes, sir. 5 Q: Do you recognize that memorandum? 6 A: Yes, this is a memorandum from 7 Albert Wheeler discussing what occurred in a 8 meeting at the Kettering Institute between 9 Dr. Suskin of Kettering, K - E - T-T-E-R-I-N-G, 1 0 Laboratory, Dr. Obttel, 0-B-T-T-E-L, from 1 1 BASF, all caps, and Mr. Weger, W-E-G-E-R, who 1 2 is I think in the safety department of 1 3 Monsanto . 1 4 Q: And what chemicals were they talking 1 5 about ? 1 6 A: Trich1orophenate , trich1oropheny1 . 1 7 Q: Is that a PCB? 1 8 A: No, sir, it is not. 1 9 Q: Were they talking about 2 0 dibenzofurans? 2 1 A : Well - - 22 MR. DAVIDSON: I will object to the 2 3 relevance of Exhibit Number 10 and the line 2 4 of questioning arising out of it. 2 5 A: They mentioned the toxicity of Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068026 17 7 1 tetrachlorodiphenyloxide. 2 Q: What is tetrachlorodiphenyloxide? 3 A: That I believe is another name for 4 chlorinated dibenzofurans . 5 Q: And do you know why it is that the 6 name has changed, is it just an acronystic 7 name? 8 A: I don't know. 9 Q: One of the pages there there is 10 actually an illustration. I guess in the 1 1 second part of that, I will number that 1 2 second group, we're going to number that 1 3 little second page that's presently in your 1 4 hand as number eleven, I thought they were 15 stapled together. From on the second page of 1 6 Number 11 there is actually a illustration of 1 7 a molecule. 1 8 A : Yes, sir. 1 9 Q: What does that molecule appear to be 2 0 to you? 2 1 A: That is a -- he calls it chlorinated 22 dipheny1oxide . It's chlorinated 23 dipheny1oxide . This is chlorinated 2 4 dibenzofuran. 2 5 Q: Two benzene rings with an extra Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068027 17 8 1 oxygen? 2 A: That's correct. 3 Q: If we took away the oxygen - 4 A: Beg your pardon? 5 Q: If we took the oxygen out of that 6 particular molecule, one of the oxygens, 7 would it then look a lot like a 8 polychlorinated biphenyl? 9 MR. DAVIDSON: Object, it is vague 1 0 and unclear. 1 1 A: If there were no oxygen.in there? 1 2 Q: (By Mr. Warshauer) Yes, sir. 1 3 A : Yes. 1 4 Q: Because it would be two benzene 1 5 rings? 1 6 A : Right. 1 7 Q: And that's what PCB ' s are? 1 8 A: Chlorinated benzene rings, right. 1 9 Q: Is Mr. Wheeler still alive?. 2 0 A: No, he died about three years ago. 2 1 I would like to amplify that last 22 s t atement of mine . When you said if you take 2 3 a n oxygen out you1 v e got chlorinated 2 4 di phenyl, well it 's an entirely different 25 produc t . I mean, taking oxygen out isn't Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068028 17 9 1 just a simple little matter. It changes the 2 whole structure of the compound. It changes 3 it's physical toxicological characteristics. 4 Q: What did you do to prepare for 5 today? 6 A: What did I do to what? 7 Q: To prepare for today. 8 A: I looked at some of the exhibits. 9 Q: What kind of exhibits? 1 0 A: I think they were plaintiff's 1 1 exhibits. . 1 2 Q: All right. Did you look at 1 3 depositions? 1 4 A: Beg yourpardon? 1 5 Q: Did you read any depositions? 1 6 A : Yes. 1 7 Q : Whose? 1 8 A: I read Dr. Steel's and Dr. Marker's. 1 9 Q: What do you think of Dr. Steel's 2 0 opinions about the correlation between PCB's 2 1 and brain cancer? 2 2 A: I don't agree with them. 2 3 Q: Why not? 2 4 A: Because I think he's wrong. 2 5 Q: Do you have any basis for that other Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068029 18 0 1 than your years of experience first hand as a 2 clinician? 3 A: Well, I would have to go over his 4 deposition page by page to -- which I will be 5 happy to do sometime, and explain why I 6 believe differently than he. 7 Q: Do you still own shares of Monsanto? 8 A : Yes, Ido. 9 Q: And how many shares do you own? 1 0 A: Less than a thousand. 1 1 Q: And are you still getting a pension 1 2 from Monsanto? 1 3 A : Yes, lam. 1 4 Q: Is that around thirty-five thousand 1 5 a year or so? 1 6 A: Probably a little less, thirty-two, 1 7 thirty-three I thought, I'm not sure. 1 8 Q: Are you being paid by Monsanto to 1 9 appear here today as a consultant? 2 0 A: Beg you pardon? 2 1 Q: Are you being paid by Monsanto today 2 2 for your time? 23 A: No, I have been paid for 24 preparation. I don't exactly know what kind 2 5 of a witness I am here. Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068030 __________________________________________________________________________________________18 1 1 Q : Okay. 2 A: I received no subpoena so I don't 3 know what -- but I'm being paid for whatever 4 preparation I'm doing. 5 Q: And how much did you charge for 6 that? 7 A: Two hundred dollars an hour. 8 Q: Have you ever testified in any 9 deposition in which you've opined that PCB's 1 0 caused or contributed to the cause, to the 1 1 problem about which the person who claims 1 2 they were injured is complaining? 1 3 A: You're talking about depositions or 1 4 trials or both? 1 5 Q: Both. 1 6 A: Either one. And you're talking 1 7 about PCB's alone? 1 8 Q : Yes. 1 9 A: No, I have not. 2 0 Q: PCB's along with dibenzofurans? 2 1 A: Whatever the contaminant I have not. 2 2 Q: PCB's along with chlorbenzenes, 2 3 chlorinated benzenes? 2 4 A: I have not. 2 5 Q: Have you ever testified that Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068031 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 18 2 Monsanto's products, chemical of any kind contributed to the personal injury of any human? A: Yes, I have. Q: And what chemicals? A: 245T at our Nitro plant. Q: And that's dioxins? A: Beg your pardon? Q: 245T is a dioxin? MR. DAVIDSON: Object. A: It was never proven but.I testified that the workers exposed to 245T, we did not know that there was dioxin in it at the time, developed chloracne. I also testified that they developed systemic illnesses. Q: That's it. MR. DAVIDSON: On the record. We originally had indicated to Mr. Warshauer that Dr. Kelly would be available today and tomorrow, and that we are here and available and Dr. Kelly still is available for him to complete any questions that he might have. And I am assuming by the statement you made on the record a minute ago that you have concluded your discovery examination at least Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068032 18 3 1 for the Fisher case? 2 MR. WARSHAUER: I've done four hours 3 worth for today and that concluded my 4 discovery examination for the Fisher case. 5 MR. DAVIDSON: Okay. That's fine. 6 MR. WARSHAUER: I understood I had 7 four hours and I took four hours and 8 thirty-seven seconds. 9 MR. DAVIDSON: But you also had four 1 0 more hours tomorrow if you elected to take 1 1 those. . 12 MR. WARSHAUER: Could have taken 13 four and four and four and four. My 1 4 understanding was I could only take him four 1 5 hours at a clip and I'm finished now. 16 MR. DAVIDSON: I understand your - 1 7 you have completed your examination on this 1 8 discovery? 1 9 MR. WARSHAUER: Based on what I know 20 right now. That doesn't mean that two weeks 2 1 from now or six weeks from now I may come up 2 2 with something that's absolutely unknown to 2 3 me and I may want to ask about it, but I can 2 4 represent that, yeah, I've asked all the 2 5 questions I want to ask through February the Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068033 18 4 1 22nd based on my knowledge from February the 2 2 2nd. 3 MR. DAVIDSON: I understand and you 4 understand that we were and are here and 5 available to go tomorrow if you elected to do 6 that but you concluded the deposition. 7 MR. WARSHAUER: I asked all I know 8 through February the 22nd. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068034 18 6 1 STATE OF MISSOURI ) 2 ) SS . 3 CITY OF ST. LOUIS ) 4 5 I, CYNTHIA R. ROLLBERG, a Notary 6 Public in and for the State of Missouri, duly 7 commissioned, qualified and authorized to 8 administer oaths and to certify to depositions, 9 do hereby certify that pursuant to notice 1 0 in'the civil cause now pending and undetermined 1 1 In the United States District Co.urt, Western 1 2 District of Virginia, Danville Division, 1 3 to be used in the trial of said cause in said 1 4 court, I was attended at the offices of Husch 1 5 Sc Eppenberger, 100 North Broadway, 13th Floor, 1 6 in the City of St. Louis, State of Missouri, 1 7 by the aforesaid witness; and by the aforesaid 1 8 attorneys; on the 22nd day of February, 1994. 1 9 The said witness, being of sound mind 2 0 and being by me first carefully examined and 2 1 duly cautioned and sworn to testify the truth, 2 2 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in 2 3 the cause aforesaid, thereupon testified as is 2 4 shown in the foregoing transcript, said 2 5 testimony being by me reported in shorthand and Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314) 241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068035 18 7 1 caused to be transcribed into typewriting, and 2 that the foregoing pages correctly set forth 3 the testimony of the aforementioned witness, 4 together with the questions propounded by 5 counsel and remarks and objections of counsel 6 thereto, and is in all respects a full, true, 7 correct and complete transcript of the 8 questions propounded to and the answers given 9 by said witness; that signature of the deponent 1 0 was not waived by agreement of counsel. 1 1 I further certify that I .am not of 1 2 counsel of attorney for either of the parties 1 3 to said suit, not related to nor interested in 1 4 any of the parties or their attorneys. 1 5 Witness my hand and notarial seal at 1 6 St. Louis, Missouri, this__________________day of 1 7 ____________________________ , 1994. 1 8 My Commissipm expires.September 13, 1997. LA /` V - ! 1 9 ---------1..___Q.________________________-- --rrrr: 2 0 Notary public in and for the 2 1 State of Missouri 22 23 24 25 Gore & Perry Reporting Co. St. Louis, Missouri (314)241-6750 621-4790 WATER PCB-SD0000068036