Document x5regDk3zG94nNZdz7bGw6KEG

COMMUTES ON LEAD TETRA-ETHYL Board o f Works, S .W .l. Monday, 1 1 th June. 1928. M inutes o f E vidence. taken before THE COMMITTEE APPOINTED BY THE MINISTER OP HEALTH. "To e n q u ir e i n t o th e p o s s i b l e d a n g ers to h e a lt h r e s u ltin g from the u se o f motor s p i r i t co n ta in in g le a d $ t e t r a e th y l or s im ila r le a d -c o n ta in in g compounds and report what p recau tion s, i f any, are d esira b le for the p rotection o f the public or o f in d iv id u a ls in connection w ith . th e u s e o r hMa n d ~lin g o f su ch m otor s p i r i t " . ' P rea en t: - S ir Frederick W illis , K .B .E ., C .B ., ( Chairman ). Dr J . C, B r id g e , F .R .C .S ., S ir George Buchanan, C .S ., M .D., P r o f e s s o r A . C Chapman, P .R .S ., P r o f e s s o r W. E. D ix o n , M .D ., P .R .S ., Dr C. H. L ander, D . S c . , S i r C h a rles JY M a rtin , C.M .G ., D .S C ., P .R .S . ,P .R . C.P Mr D. R P y e, S ir Robert Robertson, S ir W illiam W illcox, E .C .I .E ., C .B ., M .D,, F .R .C .P ., I Mr S P. S . H earder ( S e c r e ta r y ). k o o isic o f r- iP \/ i v-C `V-' ` .. ' . r` t ,TV Monday, l l t h J-une. 1 9 2 8 . M inutes o f E vidence. tajeen before THE COMMITTEE APPOINTED BY THE MINISTER OP HEALTH. m "To e n q u ire i n t o th e p o s s i b l e d a n g ers to h e a lt h r e s u lt in g from th e u se o f , mot or s p i r i t c o n ta in in g le a d t e t r a e t h y l o r s im ila r le a d - c o n t a in in g compounds and po report what precautions, i f any, are d esira b le for the , p rotection o f the public or o f in d iv id u a ls in connection w ith th e use or handling o f such motor s p i r i t ". P resent:- S i r F re d e rick W i l l i s , JC.B.E. > C ,B ., ( Chairman ). Br J , C B r id g e , F .R .C .S * , S ir George Buchanan, C.B*, M,D,, P r o f e s s o r A . C, Chapman, F .R . S . , P r o f e s s o r W, E, D ix o n , M .D ., P , R , S , , . Dr C, H. Lander, D , S c . , ' S ir C harles JV M artin, C.M.G*, D .S e ., F ,R .S, ,F .R .C .P *,, Mr D. R, P y e , - S ir Robert Robertson, S ir William W illcox, K .C .I.E ., C.B., M.D,, F .R .C ,P., Mr S* P, S , H earder ( S e c r e t a r y ). *v (T r a n s c r ip t from th e Shorthand N o te s o f GEORGE MOORE & C o ,, 38, Parliam ent S tr e e t, W estm inster, S .W .l, Tel: V ic to r ia 1875. ) 0018161 1 [ ij i>'i\ src \ '-V'. ' Dr J , ? LEAKE c a l l e d and exam ined CHAIRMAN: B e fo r e you b e g in ( Dr Leake^ I w ould l i k e , on b e h a lf o f th e Committee, to ex p ress our thanks to you and to Surgeon G eneral Cumming o f t h e A m erican Government, f o r your g r e a t k in d n ess i n coming over to t h is cou n try and t e l l i n g us about your American e x p e r ia ic e and what has been done i n th e U n ite d S t a t e s , We a r e v e r y g r e a t l y in d e b te d t o you.for i t , ft I u n d e rsta n d th a t i t was a b ou t 1923 when i t was p roposed f i r s t to use lea d te tr a e th y l in p e tro l fo r the purpose o f g e t t i n g r id o f knock i n th e e n g i n e ? -----The ae-ejaam te a lO ^ , h i s t o r y I am n o t e n t i r e l y f a m i li a r w i t h , b u t i t began to be used a t th a t t in e , I th in k some o f th e work on i t was p u b lish ed in macha&Asal jo u rn a ls p o s s ib ly e a r lie r th an t h a t . So t h a t i n th e t e c h n i c a l f i e l d s d i s c u s s i o n had been going on p o ssib ly p reviou sly to th a t, .- * _ ft A t th e o u t s e t what was th e f e e l i n g i n regard to th e u se o f t h i s m a te r ia l? ,^ --r %herp w ere g r e a t f e a r s on th e p a r t WrKAC KJiA^A o f chem ists and pastho-logiats and th ose engaged in p u b lic h e a lt h a s t o th eA.d a n g e r s from su ch a compound b e in g u se d so f r e e l y i n p e t r o l i a wettgteras ft You f e l t on g e n e r a l grounds th a t th e r e was some j u s t i f i c a tio n fo r th e fea rs people had in regard to th is m aterial? ----- There seemed t o be am ple j u s t i f i c a t i o n , and t h e f a c t th a t lea d i s an accum ulative p oison and th a t t h is substance i t s e l f i s p a rticu la rly poisonous, ft Then I t h in k i n 1924 som eth in g s e r i o u s o c c u r r e d ? -----There was rather a sudden number o f f a t a l p o iso n in g s w hich o f the Committee, to ex p ress our thanks to you and to i&i'j Surgeon G eneral Cumming o f t h e Am erican Goverlament, f o r you r g r e a t k in d n ess i n coming o v er to t h is cou n try and t e l l i n g ua about your Am erican e x p e rien ce and w hat haa been done in th e U n ite d S t a t e s , We a r e v e r y g r e a t l y in d e b te d t o you fo r i t , q, I u n d e rsta n d t h a t i t was a b ou t 1 9 2 ) when i t w as proposed f i r s t to use lea d te tr a e th y l in p etro l fo r the purpose o f g e t t i n g r id o f knock i n th e en g in e? ----- The iasw ifoaiO ^ h is t o r y I am n o t e n t i r e l y f a m i li a r w i t h , b u t i t began to be used a t th a t tim e. I th in k some o f th e work on i t <* was p u b lish e d i n m&^aan&s&l jo u r n a ls p o s s ib ly e a r l i e r th a n t h a t . So t h a t i n th e t e c h n i c a l f i e l d s d i s c u s s i o n had been going on p o ssib ly p reviou sly to th a t. Q, At th e o u t s e t what was the f e e l i n g i n regard to th e u se o f t h i s m a teria l? ,;--r There were g r e a t fe a r s on the part ItrKM VCAx .. o f c h e m ists and pa&heJ.tg-ifcs and t h o s e engaged i n p u b lic 4 h e a lth as to the, dangers from such a compound b ein g u sed so f r e e l y i n p e tr o l i&es@te*es, Q You f e l t on g e n e r a l grounds th a t th e r e was some j u s t i f i c a r - tio n fo r the fea r s people had in regard to th is m aterial? ----- There seemed t o be am ple j u s t i f i c a t i o n , and t h e f a c t th a t lea d i s an accum ulative poison and th a t t h is substance i t s e l f i s p a rticu la rly poisonous, C; Q Then I t h in k i n 1 9 2 4 \so m e th in g s e r i o u s o c c u r r e d ? ----- There, was rath er a sudden number o f f a t a l p o iso n in g s w hich o c c u r r e d i n New J e r s e y , where t e t r a e t h y l le a d was b ein g ' made or h a n d le . d , and ,>t h a t caused a great deal of p u b lic . a l a m u B e fo r e t h a t th e alarm had b een amongst^ t h o s e who k U/~> /'"( \ .-'..t `if- were m or^o^~laas--|iaj:tic.ularly_co nce m ed~in~-B cientiY ic WArk,.. .ch em iatry-an d ^ B o-fO rth ; b u t th e p u b lic w ere alarm ed 001816 3 2 ? Dr Leake . oc'- A and a g r e a t d e a l w as -efoasad i n th e p ap ers i n reg a rd to t h i s subject* j/ q Then1 th in k th e Surgeon G eneral o f th e U n ited S t a t e s P u b lic : H e a lth S e r v ic e c a l l e d a C onference? ----- He d id , on a s e a r ly ; a d ate a s he could^to g e t b efo re him a t th a t Conference ? some o f t he jr s u i t s o f th e work w h ich had been i n s t i t u t e d | 1vt>< U v&>C b y - t e d . i t was i n May 1925, t h a t h e c a ll e d t h a t C on feren ce. ; % q That C onference was a tte n d e d by whom -- I do n o t mean t h e ' names, but the so r t o f in te r e s ts ? -- - In gen eral th ose were i n v i t e d who w ere i n t e r e s t e d a t a l l : p u b lic h e a lt h w o r k e rs, c h e m is ts , t e c h n ic a l men, and th o s e who had ex p ressed p a rticu la r ly to the Surgeon General th eir fea rs in tiiis m atter. % q As the outcome o f th a t Conference, I th in k i t was decided th a t th e Government, wader th e P u b lic H ealth Department in the U n ited S ta te s should ap p oin t a Committee? The , C onference adjourrand a f t e r a good d e a l o f d is c u s s io n , having passed ju s t b efore the adjournment a r e so lu tio n th a t the ' 4, m a tte r be r e f e r r e d to t h e Surgeon G en eral: t h a t a Committee be a p p oin ted by him to r ep o rt to him about th e f i r s t o f the n ext year -- January 1926 -- as to the darters in the p u b lic use o f the product* q I n o tic e th a t th e Committee w ere asked to answer r e a lly much th e same q u e s t io n s a s t h i s Committee h as b een a sk ed to an sw er. I n America th ey w ere asked t o make a statem en t as to the h ealth hazard involved in the r e t a il d istr ib u tio n and general use o f t e t r a e th y l lea d g a so lin e .as an I1 C JH W AAO M U i g O V U u ^ u v , *# A w *.* ^ ^ ,*. * . ,, * . * , ; * H e a lth S e r v ic e c a l l e d a C on feren ce? -- - He d id , on a s e a r ly a date aa he could to g e t b efore him a t th a t Conference some o f .the J e s u i t s o f th e work w hich had been i n s t i t u t e d prur-* u \W .X by--t h oeowdrat e gwct e d . I t was i n May 192% t h a t h e c a l l e d t h a t C on feren ce. '* Cj, That C onference was a tte n d e d by whom -- I do n o t mean t h e . nam es, b u t th e s o r t o f i n t e r e s t s ? ----- In g e n e r a l t h o s e w ere i n v i t e d who w ere i n t e r e s t e d a t a l l : p u b lic h e a lt h w o r k e rs, c h e m is ts , t e c h n ic a l men, and th o s e who had e x p r essed p a rticu la rly to the Surgeon General th eir fea rs in th is - m atter. Q As the outcome o f th a t Conference, I th in k i t was decided th a t th e Government, under th e P u b lic H ealth Department in th e U n ite d S t a t e s sh o u ld a p p o in t a Committee? -- -- The Conference adjourned a f t e r a good deal, o f d is c u ssio n , having ] passed ju s t before the adjournment a r e so lu tio n th a t the m atter be r e fe r r e d to th e Surgeon G eneral: th a t a Committee be app oin ted by him to r ep o rt to him about th e f i r s t o f the next year -- January 1926 -- as to the dangers in the public use o f the product. Q, I n o t i c e t h a t t h e Committee w ere a sk ed t o answ er r e a l l y m'uch th e same q u e s t io n s a s t h i s Committee h as b een a sk ed t oi 4 an sw er. I n Am erica th e y w ere asked t o make a sta tem en t as to the h ealth hazard involved in the r e t a il d istr ib u tio n and gen eral use o f t e t r a e th y l lea d g a so lin e .as an a u to m o b ile f u e l . The Committee was n o t arppyiwrtaod to 'K''SS ' go in t o t h e m anufacture o f t e t r a e il i y l le a d i t s e l f o r th e bleanding o f i t , but m erely to in v e stig a te th e q u estio n . a s to w h eth er t h e r e w a s. any j p u b li c danger. by-thej-tiFgFga*> t a t x a - e t h v l - l e ad. i n jfch ia - m a t e r ia l JLn t h e am ounts^you^^.ioid? ---- I t was a p u b lic h e a l t h q u e s t io n . ? Dr Lea&e, Q, The members o f t i l l s Committee w e r e , I su p p o se , among y o u r m ost em inent s c i e n t i f i c men i n America? ---- They w ere g e n e r a lly regarded as b ein g a s ab le a Committee a s could be app ointed for such a purpose, and i t was composed o f f i r s t Dr C h e sle y , who i s E x e c u tiv e H ea lth O f f ic e r , M innesota S ta te Board o f H ea lth . Those S ta te H ealth O ffic e r s , o f course, were o f f ic ia ls d ir e c tly responsible to the fed era l Government. A ccording to ou r c o n s titu tio n th e fe d e r a l Government has no im m ediate r e s p o n s ib ilit y i n th e se m a tte r s, except th at of ad vice, i t being l e f t to the d iffe r e n t States Then Dr E d s a ll, who was P r o fe s s o r o f C l in ic a l M ed icin e a t the U n iv e r sity o f P en nsylvan ia and Harvard U n iv e r sity , being then Dean o f th e M edical School and S ch ool o f P u b lic H e a lth a t H arvard. He had e x p r e ss e d s e r io u s co n cern about th e m a tte r . Then P r o f e s s o r H o w ell, who h as w t i t t e n a te x t b ooi w hich, I suppose, i s used more than any o th er i n A m erica on p h y s io lo g y . He i s n o t p u r e ly a m e d ic a l man, he i s p r o fe s s o r o f P h y sio lo g y a t th e U n iv e r s ity o f M ichigan, and he was a lso a t Harvard and fo r a lo n g time-.--': was P rofessor o f P h ysiology a t Johns Hopxins M edical School, an d ^ e^ s^ ir^ fea a o j^ jf^ h y sio lo g y ^ t^ h e^ eh o a l^ jjL fL iene-~and^ubl-ic~Heal:th, Johna-Hopxi-ns-Uni-veTaity, andis_now ^4M ^at-=sM few ri. Then P r o f e s s o r Reid. H unt, who was ` form erly P ro fe sso r o f Pharmacology a t th e H ygienic Laborato U nited S ta te s P u b lic H ealth S e r v ic e, and was a t th e tim e th e Committee was ap p oin ted , P r o fe sso r o f Pharmacology a t Harvard U n iv e r s it y M ed ical S c h o o l Then P r o f e s s o r L e a th e r ' P rofessor o f P reventive M edicine, V anderbilt U n iv ersity . He i n a way a ls o r e p r e s e n te d th e S t a t e a u t h o r i t i e s , inasmuch *> 4 KC 0018167 app ointed fo r such a purpose, and i t was composed o f f i r s t Dr C h esley , who i s E x ecu tiv e H ea lth O f f ic e r , M innesota S ta te Board o f H ealth , Those S ta te H ealth O ffic e r s, o f course, were o f f ic ia ls d ir e c tly resp onsib le to the Federal Government, A ccording to our c o n s titu tio n th e F ed eral Government has no im m ediate r e s p o n s ib ilit y i n th e se m a tters, except th at o f ad vice, i t being l e f t to the d iffe r e n t S ta tes Then Dr E d s a ll, who was p r o f e s s o r o f C l in ic a l M ed icin e a t th e U n iv ersity o f P en nsylvan ia and Harvard U n iv e r sity , being then Dean o f th e M edical School and S ch ool o f P u b lic H e a lth a t H arvard, He had e x p r e ss e d s e r io u s co n cern about th e m a tte r . Then P r o f e s s o r H o w ell, who h as w t i t t e n a te x t book w hich, I suppose, i s used more than any o th er i n Am erica on p h y s io lo g y . He i s n o t p u r e ly a m e d ic a l man, he i s p r o fe s s o r o f P h y s io lo g y a t th e U n iv e r s it y o f M ichigan, and he was a lso a t Harvard and fo r a lo n g tim e was P ro fesso r o f P h ysiology a t Johns Hopkins M edical S ch ool, and-ha-is-jej^fsa^ojL.pX Jehyalology~at-the~Schou-l~oJL H ysien e--a n d -^ u b lic --H e a lth , Johns-HopM -ns-U n i v e r s i t y , and" ia ^ io w - a t t - t h a t r a w ^ o i. Then p r o f e s s o r R e i H unt, who was form erly P ro fesso r o f Pharmacology a t th e H ygienic Laborato: U nited S ta te s P u b lic H ealth S erv ice, and was a t th e tim e th e Committee was ap p o in ted , P r o fe sso r o f Pharm acology a t Harvard U n iv e r s it y M edical S c h o o l T Then P r o fe s s o r L eath ers P rofessor o f P reventive M edicine, V anderbilt U n iv ersity , He i n a way a ls o r e p r e s e n te d th e S t a t e a u t h o r i t i e s , inasmuch as he had been E xecutive H ealth O fficer o f th e M ississip p i S ta te Board o f H ealth , Then P r o fe sso r S t i e g l i t z , P ro fe sso r o f C hem istry a t t h e U n iv e r s it y o f C h ica g o , He i s regard ed g e n e r a lly i n th e U nited S ta te s as one o f the most eminent 4 ? Dr Leake o r g a n ic c h e m is tfin th e c o u n tr y . Then Dr W inslow , P r o fe s s o r o f P u b lic H ealth a t the M edical Sch ool, Yale U n iversity* He^asH^een-^ofes^o4^-of^-Tachaol.ogy and he was P resid en t o f the American P u b lic H ealth A s s o c ia tio n a t th a t time* Those were th e Committee. P ro fe sso r H ow ell was chosen a s Chairman* .| Q, That Committee d e c id e d t o make c e r t a i n e x p e r im e n ta l o b se r v a t i o n s th e m se lv e s? ---- They d id . , Q And you w ere p la c e d i n charge o f th e i n v e s t i g a t i o n s ? -- Yee Q You made an in t e r im r e p o r t a t th e end o f t h e y e a r and on Jan u ary 1 9 th fche Committee d r a fte d and s ig n e d t h e i r f i n a l report? -- They did* Q W ill you t e l l u s what th e ir in v e s tig a tio n s covered? ----- The i n v e s t i g a t i o n was u n d ertak en to d is c o v e r w hat h e a lth hazard, i f any, i s involved in the r e t a il d istrib u tio n and u se o f t e t r a e th y l le a d g a s o lin e as an autom obile fu el* I t was g e n e ra lly f e l t th a t the previous in v e stig a tio n s on a n im a ls c o u ld n o t g iv e a s a t i s f a c t o r y and d e f i n i t e a n sw er .; to t h i s q u e s t io n , t h e r e f o r e human s u b j e c t s w ere s t u d ie d twho had been exposed to th e a c tu a l use and in the d is tr ib u tio n o f t h i s product f o r some p e r io d . I may say th a t d u rin g the con tin u ation o f th is in v e stig a tio n the E thyl G asoline C o r p o r a tio n , who c o n t r o l t h e d i s t r i b u t i o n o f th e p r o d u ct, withdrew i t from pu blic s a l , i t was s t i l l , however, in use in an a rea in South W estern O hio, where i t had been f i r s t u se d ; th a t was f o r t u n a t e f o r our s tu d y , b eca u se s u b j e c t s ;t i f | </' i c oxld be ch osen from th a t a rea who had b een exp o sed f o r the lo n g e st tim e p o s s i b l e ,/ and control, groups were ilfcuJP a lso . ; 'h , V .' ' o f the American P u b lic H ealth A s s o c ia tio n a t th at time* Those w ere th e Committee* P r o fe sso r H ow ell was .chosen a s Chairman, ft That Committee d e c id e d t o malee c e r t a i n e x p e r im e n ta l o b ser v a t i o n s th e m se lv e s? ----- They d id . ft And you w ere p la c ed i n charge o f t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n s ? Ys b . Q You made an in t e r im r e p o r t a t th e end o f t h e y e a r and on January 19 th th e Committee d r a fted and sig n ed t h e ir f i n a l report? -- They d id , ft W ill you t e l l u s what t h e i r i n v e s t i g a t i o n s 'covered? ^ ----- The i n v e s t i g a t i o n was u n d ertak en t o d is c o v e r w hat h e a lt h hazard, i f any, i s involved in the r e t a il d istr ib u tio n and u se o f t e t r a e th y l le a d g a s o lin e as an autom obile f u e l. I t was g e n e ra lly f e l t th a t the previous in v e stig a tio n s on anim als could n ot g iv e a s a tis fa c to r y and d e fin ite answer to t h i s q u e s t io n , t h e r e f o r e human s u b j e c t s w ere s t u d ie d who had been exposed to the a c tu a l use and in the d is tr ib u tio n o f t h is product f o r some p e r io d , I may say th a t d u rin g the con tin u ation o f th is in v e stig a tio n the E thyl G asoline C o r p o r a tio n , who c o n t r o l t h e d i s t r i b u t i o n o f th e p r o d u ct, withdrew i t from p u blic s a l . I t was s t i l l , however, in use in an a rea in South W estern Ohio, where i t had been f i r s t u sed ; th at was fo rtu n a te fo r our stu d y , because su b je c ts * c cid be ch osen from th a t a rea who had b een exp osed f o r the lo n g e st tim e possible^ and co n trg ^ g ro u p s were a lso s t u d ie d who had n o t been ex p o sed to th g a s o l i n e . We had S' f i v e gro u p s. The f i r s t group A was a c o n tr o l group, a s . D'! we aew: 36 men who had u s e d c a r s p r o p e lle d try o r d in a r y ; ` g a s o lin e , n ot e t h y l g a s o lin e , and who w ere exp osed to v exhaust fumes to a degree j u s t as g r e a t as the g e n e ra l public, K 0018160 5 Dr Leake The secon d group B . c o n s is t e d o f 77 c a r u s e r s who w ere sim ila r to group A. except th a t th e ir exposure was to e t h y l g a s o l i n e : g r o u p ,0 was a n o th e r c o n t r o l group o f 21 garagew orkers and g a s o l i n e h a n d le r s who w ere exposed to g a s o lin e o th er th a n e t h y l g a s o lin e . Then group D , was a t e s t group on th e o th er hand, com prising 57 garage w orkers an g a so lin e han dlers, sim ila r to group 0, except th at the exp osu re was t o e t h y l g a s o l i n e . We h ad , t h e r e f o r e , two c o n tr o l groups n o t expose^ ,,to e th y l g & slo in e , one r e p r e s e n tin more or l e s s th e g e n e r a l autom ob ile s , and " X' - Jj - AJ j i . s X i ^ one representing g a s0l i n e t expewHssk, A i* c x . A c rs. (V- ^ pAr./.' vj? two t e s t g ro u p s, o^ ^ repiW entiagw tha^ gen hrai^ i^ iroiilh hi'lQ nnft.n im ll^ ^ irib riiT c fn ; \ \ f : CT v i>- %: \ J \ P \ f A m ,-,t . C. x. `^ ex p o sed ^ itt^ eth y lrg a a o l4 n 8 - .u a in g a 3 ta b iiishiQ ent s . We, had i Oyp-.-X- <PSf. %*-> i/,,. \yj-i V> V a f i f t h g ro u p ! th a t c o n s is t e d o f men exposed d e f i n i t e l y to a le a d h azard . That was to determ ine w h eth er ou r m ethods Of en q u iry w ere adequate to show w h eth er le a d p o iso n in g had o c c u r r e d i n e p o p le who w ere s t i l l a b le to go abou t th e ir u su a l employment, ... Gm : What c l a s s o f workts^ w ould th a t l a s group com prise? ... :: ' /-V.^ . - -----They w ere i n sto r a g e f a c t o r ie s ^ a s we c a l l them. 0. S to r a g e w orks? ----- Y es. n o th in g t o do w it h ca rs? ---- no. Q As to you r p la n Of w ork, w hat d id t h a t i n c l u d e ? ----- I may say that the r e su lts are published in the Public H ealth B u lle t in 163, p u b lish ed by the Treasury Department o f the U n ited S t a t e s H e a lth S e r v ic e , to w h ich I am r e f e r r in g now -- p u b lish e d i n June 1 9 2 6 . The, p la n o f work In c lu d e d wwmgra qwnm* -- q *v *r )v -- ^ **--*--.* q *** * --hi garagew ork ers and g a s o l i n e h a n d le r s who w ere exp osed to g a s o lin e o th er th a n e t h y l g a s o lin e . Then group S , was a t e s t group on th e o th er hand, com prising 57 garage w orkers an g a so lin e han dlers, sim ila r to group 0, except th at the exp osu re was t o e t h y l g a s o lin e * We h ad , t h e r e f o r e , two ft c o n tro l groups not exposed,,to e th y l g a s lo in e , one r ep resen t! .(jyiiUt V (A4sr-{^-<'< more or l e s s th e g e n e ra l, au tom ob ile aa^sSys^mew^brisrars, and 1 A t CVC`-0'5 S!' b -1 one representing g a s o l i n e ex$eKK4Ea. ^ C A \\jt vr CU- CxiUrrvx./ ' N wyp two t e s t g r o u p s, osn e-n ep fW en b i* * ^ ^ 0v-f 'JA],: _-1J' -r lT S^O-O--<? j (>./ ^ -C<./ .v* 'Yv-'-A,- 4 . and-'nTfniii||^ r i bg i y fa a n 4 ^ h e -^ * tfe r^ M ^ ^ W E n t^ H S e ly x.- -"4 \U tW - -'* Vrl ^ ->AM-n ^ v* / ?t r r exposed-4n^ethyl^a30iM ne^ueing^ta#4^ish3faen't s . We, had * \ \Vty- >s.(> Y#/ ~( V--,. i'>\0 - *<V'; -<J t/,, a f i f t h groupV th a t c o n s is t e d o f men exp osed d e f i n i t e l y to a le a d hazard. That was to determ ine w h eth er ou r methods o f en q u iry w ere adequate to show w h eth er le a d p o iso n in g had o c c u r r e d in ep o p le who w ere s t i l l a b le to go abou t th e ir u su a l employment, 4 q What c l a s s o f workbvw ould t h a t l a s group com p rise? / -----They w ere i n s to r a g e f a c t o r i e s ^ s we c a l l them. . q S to r a g e w orks? ----- Y es. - q n o th in g to do w it h c a rs? --- No. q As to you r p la n o f w ork, what d id t h a t i n c l u d e ? -----I may say that the r e su lts are published in the Public H ealth ' B u lle tin 163, published by the Treasury Department o f the . y' U n ite d S t a t e s H e a lth S e r v ic e , to which, I am r e f e r r in g now - - p u b lish e d i n June 1 9 2 6 . The, p la n o f work in c lu d e d a c lin ic a l exam ination w ith a c a re fu l h isto r y o f each person -- o f course d irected p a r tic u la r ly towards lea d . 0018171 6 Dr Leake, An e s t im a t io n o f th e red c e l l c o u n t, a c c o u n t fo r stip p le d c e lls and ah exam ination o f a specimen o f the fe c e s fo r lead., in planning th e in v e s tig a tio n we la id sp e c ia l emphasis on th ree methods w hich would p o s s ib ly y ie ld we thought more d e f in it e q u a n tita tiv e r e s u lt s , regarding s lig h t v a r ia tio n s from th e nonaal: a t the same tim e th ey would be fr e e from s u b je c tiv e a- r a&ea^cds -- w hat m ight be c a l l e d th e p e r so n a l equation, ffirst there was the determ ination o f th e amount o f le a d i n th e f e c e s , w hich w ould show le a d exp osu re or le a d a b s o p r tio n . The seco n d was a q u a n t it a t iv e e%$pg2PB>&9n: exam ination o f red blood c e lls for s t ip p lin g , which i n the absence o f o th er causes would in d ic a te le a d a b so rp tio n , waa^ha-egcamlWtdfcon o f th e e x te n so r m u scles o f th e forearm , w h ich w ould be in d ic a t iv e o f lead poisoning, socalled lead n e u r itis , w h ich i s a more o r l e s s o b j e c t iv e symptom o f le a d p o iso n in g ; w^asene&s- i n th e e x te n s o r s An e s t im a t io n o f th e red c e l l c o u n t, a m o u n t fo r stip p le d c e l ls and ah exam ination o f a specimen o f the fe c e s for le a d . In planning th e in v e s tig a tio n we la id s p e c ia l emphasis on th ese methods w hich would p o s s ib ly y ie ld we thought more d e f in it e q u a n tita tiv e r e s u lt s , reg a rd ii^ s lig h t v a r ia tio n s from th e nonaal: a t the same tim e th ey w ould be fr e e from s u b j e c t iv e fteeu^rds -- w hat m igh t be c a l l e d th e p e r s o n a l equation, ffirst there was the determ ination o f th e amount o f le a d i n th e f e c e s , w hich w ould show le a d exp osu re or le a d a b s o p r tio n . The se co n d was a q u a n t i t a t i v e exfRHP*4mi: t{$ e x a m in a tio n o f red b lood c e l l s f o r s t ip p lin g , which in th e absence o f o th er causes would in d ic a te le a d a b so rp tio n . w VX waa-^he^e3caaa#B^ion o f th e e x te n s o r m u scle s o f f. t h e fo rea rm , w h ich w ou ld be i n d i c a t i v e o f lead poisoning, socalled lead n e u r itis , w h ich i s a more o r l e s s o b j e c t iv e symptom o f le a d p o is o n in g ; Wnga&ive&s i n th e e x t e n s o r s o f the w rist* Dr L?aKa 0, I t has bean su g g eeted to us t h a t the iAj Ab u s in g of t h i s e th y l g a s o lin e was so c a r e f u l ly warned by you th a t they e x e rc is e d .much more th a n ordinary c a re ; t h a t is to say th e y were r e a l l y n o t ty p ic a l o f an o rd in a ry garage w orher who not Know an experim ent was "being made, and t h a t th e r e f o r e they d id not expose them selves to the re a l risK which th e average garage worKer would do i f t h i s m a te r ia l were - in c o n s ta n t use everyw here. Did you f in d t h a t th e s e . men were v ary s p e c ia lly c a r e f u l ? ---- That m ight he supposed by an o u ts id e r, hut th e f a c t is th a t th a t is n o t tr u e a t a l l b ecau se in Kxx th e f i r s t p la c e . t h i s was th e d i s t r i c t where th e m a te ria l was f i r s t used, and as is q u ite obvious from the h is to ry of . th e m a te r ia l , i t wag used c a r e le s s ly a t f i r s t , the men taK ing no p re c a u tio n s . They were in th e h ab it of s p illin g i t over them selves, and they placed i t in t h e i r h an d s, and one of the g arag e s was ex.trem ely d i r t y a n d . i l l - v e n t i l a t e d , and th e man tooK v e ry poor care of them selves o r t h e i r c lo th e s , or t h e i r sKin: th e re were no p reca u tio n s taKen, and th a t was q u ite re p re s e n ta tiv e of ac poor sa n ita ry , methods aa you would o r d in a r ily g e t. . y- q You r e a l l y th iric th a t th a t o b je c tio n was in v a lid ? - -- I t is invalid in th is case, q There is another p o in t I want to ash you about. . You examined th e e x c re ta f o r le a d ; d id you do th a t ' . because you considered the le ad in the ex creta afforded:I?y; a r e a l l y s a t i s f a c t o r y index to th e le a d in th e human p e r s o n ? ---- "We .c o u ld not ju d g e i t in an in d iv id u a l, were r e a l l y n o t ty p ic a l o f an o rd in a ry g arage w orker who n o t Know an experim ent was b e in g made, and t h a t th e r e f o r e they d id not expose them selves to the re a l r is k which th e average garage w orker would do i f t h i s m a te r ia l were in c o n s ta n t uea everyw here. Did you f in d t h a t th e s e men were v ery s p e c ia lly c a re fu l? ---- That m ight he supposed by an o u ts id e r, h ut th e f a c t is th a t th a t is not tru e a t a i l because in kxx the f i r s t place th ia was th e d i s t r i c t where th e m a te ria l was f i r s t used, and as is q u ite obvious from the h is to ry of . the m a te ria l, i t was used c a re le s s ly a t f i r s t , th e men talcing no p r e c a u tio n s . They were in th e h ab it of s p illin g i t over them selves, and they placed i t in t h e i r hand.?, and one of th e g arag e s was ex trem ely d i r t y and i l l - v e n t i l a t e d , and th e man took very poor care of them selves or th e ir clo th es, or t h e i r sk in : th e re were no p re c a u tio n s tak en , and th a t was q u ite re p re s e n ta tiv e of as poor s a n ita ry methods aa you would o r d in a r ily g e t. q You r e a l l y th in k tjia t th a t o b je c tio n was in v a lid ? - -- I t is invalid in th is case. Q There is another p o in t I want to ask you about. You examined th e e x c re ta f o r le a d ; d id you do t h a t ' because you considered the le a d in the e x c re ta affo rd ed . a r e a l l y s a t i s f a c t o r y index to th e le a d in th e human ' . p e r s o n ? ---- We .c o u ld not judge i t in an in d iv id u a l, V'NjO'V-O LVv. ` ... as to le a d was s to r e d , by th e le a d in h ie e x c r e t a b u t in a la r g e group who were c o n tin u a lly u n d er th e ex p o su re, which we were in v e s tig a tin g - th e exposure . to th is ath y l g aso lin e - i f they were sto rin g le a d , Dr Leake th a t group a s a whole would show more la ad in t h e i r e x c re ta t__han the c o n tr o ls , who were presum ably n o t sto rin g le ad - a t le a s t, not s to rin g any more than the ordinary people in .uch occupations. 0. I was w o n d e rin g ,if i t were p o s s ib le f o r th e le a d e x c re ta to remain p r e t t y c o n s ta n t w h ils t in some o th e r p a r t s of the body they were g e ttin g a s te a d ily accum ulating amount of l e a d ? ---- That m ight -well be in an in d iv id u a l; . b u t ta k in g a group, 1 th in k we could reaso n presumably ' th a t such storage did not t3ke place except as indicated by the ex creta. a Taking th e whole group of men, you say th a t is a very f a i r measure of leac^if s to re d anyw h e r e ? ---- Yes, a f a i r m easure. Q. Then I b e lie v e you took c a r e f u l p re c a u tio n s to guard a g a in st . in d iv id u a l *b ia s on the part of the exam iners? ---- That was a th in g , as to w hich we p erh ap s endeavoured . more th a n any o th e r to make our work d i f f e r e n t . , The a c tu a l w orkers who d id th e q u a n t i t a t i v e e x a m in a tio n s, whetter on th e s u b je c ts of th e b lo o d o r th e e x c re ta , .. could n o t t e l l , w hether th e y .'were exam ining men who had . been exposed to the e th y l g aso lin e o r w hether they were o men who had n o t b een exposed. Tne c o n tro l groups and the exposed groups were mixed up and r a th e r an e la b o ra te system of numbering specimens was used; so th a t i t could not b e determ ined a t a l l . Y/e f e l t t h a t t h a t W3c n e c e s s a ry in o rd e r to guard a g a in s t s u b je c tiv e e r r o r s , and i t was co -o p erated in by a i l the w orkers. They r e a lis e d the ordinary people in such occupations. q. I was w o n d e rin g ,if i t were p o s s ib le f o r th e le a d e x c re ta to rerr:3ln p r e t t y c o n s ta n t w h ils t in some o th e r p a r t s of the body they were g e ttin g a s te a d ily accum ulating amount of le a d ? ---- That m ight w e ll be in an in d i v i d u a l ; b u t talcing a group, t th in x we could reaso n presum ably ; that- such storage did not taXe place except as in d ic a te d by the e x c re ta. q Taxing th e whole group of men, you say th a t is a very f a i r measure of l e a ^ i f sto re d anywh e r e ? ---- Y es, a f a i r . rnea s u r e . 0. Then I b e lie v e you tooX c a r e f u l p re c a u tio n s to guard a g a in s t in d iv id u a l b ia s on th e p a r t of the exam iners? ---- That was a th in g , as to which we perhaps endeavoured more th a n any o th e r to maXe our worx d i f f e r e n t . . The a c tu a l worXers who d id th e q u a n t i t a t i v e e x a m in a tio n s, . whe&er on th e s u b je c ts o f th e b lo o d o r th e e x c r e ta , could n o t t e l l w hether th ey were exam ining men who had been exposed to the e th y l g aso lin e o r w hether they were . men who had n o t been exposed. The c o n tro l groups and the exposed groups were mixed up and ra th e r an e la b o ra te system of numbering specim ens was u se d ; so t h a t i t could i; not b e determ ined a t a l l . We f e l t th 3 t t h a t was n e c e s s a ry in o rd e r to guard a g a in s t s u b je c tiv e e r r o r s , and i t was . c o -o p e ra te d in by a l l :th e w o rx ere. They r e a l is e d the reason f o r such a b lin d ex am in atio n . I t was n o t th a t we were n o t t r u s t i n g them b u t i t was to ma-Xe th e th in g above reproach. - q This i s q u ite a p a r t from y o u r ev id en ce , b u t I remember :v; ' --a'W': some y e a rs agy6eing on a committee th a t 'was e n q u irin g in to the danger connected with b a c te ria g e ttin g into w ater 9 x3 Dr Leake s u p p lie s , and they se n t a sample of w ater taken q u ite n e a r'a sewage i u t f a l i to an in dependent 'b a c te r io lo g i s t w ith o u t t a i l i n g him where it. came from , and a n o th e r sample which was . very pure w ate r, and he found more c o li in th e v ery pure wate th an he found in th e sewage o u t f a l l w a te r; and he v ery much o b je c te d afterw ard s th a t he was n o t to ld where th o se saiples came from. . 0 What were th e r e s u l t s o f y o u r ex am in atio n s? ---- 3o f a r ae . th e c a re fu l c l i n i c a l exam inations were concerned, th e re was . no le a d p o iso n in g among th e au to m o b ile d r iv e r s u sin'gG e t h y l ,- - ,-b - *./ f\ /** g a s o lin e . The f i f t h group, who were exposed to a d e f i n i t e . l e ad h az ard - a l l of whom were su p p o sed -to "oe e n t i r e l y fre e from symptoms which would heap them from t h e i r work - d id show by o u r t e s t s in some cases d e f i n i t e le a d p o iso n in g . 'h 0. That is th e men working in c o n n e ctio n w ith th e accu m u lato rs? ---- Yes. Our c l i n i c a l m ethods, in o th e r w ords, we found to be c lo se enough to show up in th o se men, a lth o u g h f o r th e purpose of t h e i r employment th ey were normal men. In reg ard to th e le a d ex p o su re, th e le a d was- in d ic a te d in th e f e c e s , and th e le ad a b s o rp tio n was- in d ic a te d by th e s tip p le d c e l l s and th e red c e l l c o u n ts. The g arag e w orkers and g a s o lin e h a n d le r s , t h a t i s our group c & D, showed more le a d th a n .the autom obile d r iv e r s r e p r e s e n tin g th e g e n e r a l p u b lic in Americ In th e case of th e garage w orkers and g a s o lin e h a n d le rs who vn r were exposed to e t h y l g a s o lin e th e r e was a s l i g h t l y g r e a t e r amount of l e ad shown than in. th o s e who were n o t exposed to th e e th y l g a s o lin e ; b u t th e s e s l i g h t in c re a s e s 'were of ah----; e n tire ly d iffe re n t order of magnitude from the comparatively v e ry g r e a t amounts of le a d shown by group E. I may say th a - Ye t v p ure w a te r, and. lie nunc, more c o n in very na.ua th an he found in th e sewage o u t f a l l w a te r; and. he very much ' o b je cte d afterw ard s th a t he was n o t to ld where th o se saiplee/ cane from. q v/hat -were th e r e s u l t s o f y o u r e x a m in a tio n s ? ---- 3o f a r as the c a re fu l c l i n i c a l exam inations were concerned, th e re was .ir. no; >le a d p o isof nhi;-n.gvijja'-mAo, ng th e au to m o b ile d r iv e r s(\u sin g e t h y lt/<:\' g a s o lin e . The f i f t h group, who were exposed to a d e f i n i t e ie ad h a z a rd - a l l of whom were supposeditro be e n t i r e l y f re e from symptoms which would Keep them from t h e i r work - d id . show by our t e s t s in some cases d e f i n i t e le a d p o iso n in g . 'p 0, That ie th e men wording in c o n n e ctio n w ith th e a c cu m u lato rs? ---- Y es. Our c l i n i c a l m eth o d s, in o th e r w ords, we found to be c lo se enough to show up in th o se men, a lth o u g h f o r th e purpose of t h e i r employment th ey were normal men. In reg ard to the le a d ex p osure, the le a d was in d ic a te d in th e f e c e s , : and th e le ad a b s o rp tio n was in d ic a te d by th e s tip p le d c e l l s and th e red c e l l c o u n ts. The g arage w orkers and g a s o lin e h a n d le r? , t h a t is our group c & D, showed more le a d th a n the autom obile d riv e r* re p r e s e n tin g th e g e n e ra l p u b lic in Americ a in th e case of th e garage w orkers and g a s o lin e h a n d le rs who ware exposed to e t h y l g a s o lin e th e r e was a s l i g h t l y g r e a t e r amount of l e ad shown th an in th o s e who viere n o t exposed to the e th y l g a so lin e ; bu t th e se s lig h t in c re ase s were of an e n tire ly d iffe re n t order of magnitude from the comparatively v e ry g r e a t amounts of le a d shown by group E. I may say tha: i t h as been m isu n d ersto o d in Ameriqa somewhat, our f in d in g oi s ti p p lin g and o f le_ ad in th e se men - th a t^ m ic ro s c o p ic a l : ex am in atio n f o r s t i p p l i n g and_ th e ch em ical exam ination f o r lead were r e a lly q u ite We Mrs* t h a t p re v io u s to y , th a t no such exam ination f o r le a d in th e fe c e s o r in o rg an i m a te r ia l - a q u a n t ita tiv e ex am in atio n - have, b een c a r r ie d o Dr Leaice 3o th a t a p o s i t i v e r e s u l t th e re was n o t what would he c a lle d a p o s itiv e r e s u l t in o rd in a ry a n a ly s e s , and in th e e a rs way w ith s ti p p l i n g . We found s ti p p lin g in presum ably norm al persons, whereas o rd in a rily I believe stip p lin g is indicated as som ething to do w ith le a d , and i t was so f e l t by ur t h a t is a d e f in it e le a d exposure - to be of some im port o r d i n a r i l y . But we found some s t i p p l i n g in a l l grou ps ; hs(o. Wo /-.that th e mere, f a c t of th e re b e in g , le ad i n . a l l groups 1-n - t h rvi 'A* k-VjA*"^ "+"0 ?f ' b y j o n d J j i 3 w - - oe t d T O d 3 ? - ^ ^ .. 9, Did you mads any o th e r s t u d i e s ? ---- We a ls o c o lle c te d sam ples of the a i r by the im pinger method, and of the s e ttle d x u i d u st in th e s e g a ra g e s; and we found le a d in g arag es even where no isshm e th y l g a s o lin e was u sed : "which acco rded of co u rse w ith o u r fin d in g in th e in d iv id u a ls who were, wording th e re . Those amounts of le a d were i f an e n tir e ly d if f e r e n t order of magnitude than those found in the a c tu a l p laces where th e re was a d e f i n i t e le a d ex p o su re. Q That is th e accu m u lato r words? ---- Yes. Then we did a n o th e r th in g which p o ssib ly does not give to th e in d iv id u a l reading . th e r e s u lts or h e a rin g .o f them as v iv id an im pression as is . o b tain ed by th e a c tu a l in v e s tig a to r , i t was f e l t th a t it. was v ery p o s s ib ly th a t c a s e s -o f in ju r y could occur in th o se g arag e s where e th y l g a s o lin e was u se d , of p o s s ib ly m inor o r p o s s ib ly more sev ere i n t e n s i t y ; and t h a t th e pe__opie who had ^ s u f f e r e d such s l i g h t or d i s t i n c t in ju r y would of t h e i r own: ;' :accord' get out of those garages and out of th a t employment; in those . p e rso n s, wnsreax1 oxuxm>rixy i oexieve ex-ippxing is m aica^ ea as som ething to do w ith le a d , and i t was so f e l t "by us - t h a t is a d e f i n i t e le a d exposure - to he of some im port o r d in a r ily . But we found some s ti p p lin g in a l l g r o u p s ;,s o . / .that th e mere,. f a c t of th e re "being le a d i n a l l groups rV. .,f \\.A ' lUV'V'-'l i/4 ' ... 1wl A* ^ * . * 0 j s j d Ki'tA r<vvX-TM.{x.----'^ .in i X .O**-*. 0. Bid you mai:e any o th e r s t u d i e s ? ---- We a ls o c o lle c te d sam ples v of the a i r by th e iurpinger m ethod, and of th e s e t t l e d x>x d u st in th e s e g a ra g e s ; and we found le a d in 'g a r a g e s even v/if where no taatee e th y l g aso lin e was used: which accorded of . y co u rse w ith o u r fin d in g in th e in d iv id u a ls who were, working t h e r e . Those. amounts of le a d 'were i f an e n t i r e l y d i f f e r e n t * -;\, order of magnitude than those found In the a c tu a l p la c e s v where th e re was a d e f i n i t e le a d ex p o su re. :m 0, That is th e accu m u lato r w o r k s ? ---- Yes. Then we did a n o th e r th in g which p o ssib ly does not give to the in d iv id u al reading the r e s u lts or h ea rin g of them as v iv id an im pression as ie o btained by the a c tu a l in v e s tig a to r . I t was f e l t th a t i t was v e ry p o s s ib ly t h a t cases of in ju r y co uld o ccur in th o se g arag es where e th y l g a s o lin e was u se d , of p o s s ib ly m inor o r .: p o s s ib ly more sev ere i n t e n s i t y ; and t h a t th e pe__opie who had s u f f e r e d such s l i g h t o r d i s t i n c t in ju r y would o f t h e i r own . accord get out of those garages and out of th a t employment;/ and th a t by exam ining ;<those who.were p r e s e n t in th o se .. garages who had used t ^ L - f e 4 i * a - f or a le n g th of tim e - two y e a rs o r more - we . would be to a c e r t a i n e x te n t exam ining s e le c te d in d iv i d u a ls , th o se who had w ith sto o d th e exp o su re. Q, Q u i t e . ---- So we endeavoured by ev ery means a t o ur command-to., 11 KE" 0018181 Dr Leake seek out any who night have been exposed and s u ffe re d injury and gone to o th er c itie s or sought o th er employment; and we secu red v ery e x c e lle n t c o -o p e ra tio n from th e peo p le from whom we e n q u ire d , '.fe were q u ite a b le to a s s u re them to t h e i r s a t i s f a c t i o n t h a t o u r e n q u iry was q u ite d ie i n te r e s te d , and t h a t t h e i r em ployers would n o t h e a r of what th e y to ld u s . They were very ready to t e l l us of in stan ce? that- they had heard e ith e r in d ire c tly or d ire c tly of the supposed b in ju r y caused "by t h i s m a te r ia l ; and th o se in s ta n c e s were in a l l cases in v e s tig a te d , no m a tte r in what p a rt of the country they were, and in no case whatever was th e re any fo u n d a tio n f o r th e su p p o sitio n th a t t h i s e th y l g a s o lin e wag to "blame. The d e t a i l s of %. some of them a re g iv e n in t h i s r e p o r t. I t was very- co n v in cin g to our m inds, inasmuch as th e men were very frank to t e l l us. of such supposed cases, o, Do you th in k th a t any d e f in it e in ju r y from e th y l . p e t r o l would be l i k e l y to g et re p o rte d to you i f i t 4 o ccu rred , o r would you be l i k e l y to g e t to know of i t ? ---- Muuh more so th a n of o th e r i n j u r i e s o r d is e a s e s , on account of th e g r e a t p u b l i c i t y t h a t was given to th e s u b je c t in th e new spapers and g e n e r a lly , n o tic e s o f co u rse we. p la c e d on a l l . pumps; The g a s o lin e was co lo u red d i f f e r e n t l y ' from o th e r g a s o lin e ; and th e r e was d is c u s s io n . g e n e ra lly about, i t ; and th e H ealth O ffic e rs them selves were on th e lo o k o u t. They had d is c u s s e d th e th in g Dr LeaKe Q perhaps you n ight t e l l us what.were the conclusions of the committee as th e r e s u lt o f th e ir in v e stig a tio n ? ---- I th in * I should read th e n i n t h e i r own w ords. The Committee concluded th a t d riv e rs o f c a rs u sin g eth y l g aso lin e as a fu el and in which th e co n cen tratio n of t e t r a - e t h y l lead was not g r e a te r th a n one p a r t to 13 . hundred p a r ts hy volume o f g a s o lin e showed no d e f i n i t e signs of lead adsorption a fte r exposures approxim ating two y e a r s . ( 2 ) Employees o f g arag e s engaged i n th e handling and re p a irin g o f autom obiles and employees of au to m o b ile s e rv ic e s ta tio n s may shew evidence o f le a d a d s o rp tio n and s to r a g e , as in d ic a te d dy th e le a d c o n te n t of th e fe c e s, and th e appearance of stip p led c e lls in th e d iced . In garages and s ta tio n s in which e h ty l g aso lin e was used th e amount o f ap p aren t ao so p p tio n and ato ra g e was somewhat in c re a se d , out th e e f f e c t was s li g h t in com parison w ith t h a t shown dy w orkers in o th e r in d u s t r ie s w here th e r e ... was a se v ere le a d h az ard . That i s our Group E. ilnd f o r th e p erio d s o f exposures stu d ied was not s u f f ic ie n t to produce d e te c ta b le symptoms o f le a d p o iso n in g . ( 3 ) In th e regions in which ethyl gasoline has been used to th e g r e a t e s t e x te n t a s a m otor f u e l f o r a p erio d o f between two and th r e e y e a rs no d e f i n i t e cases have been d isc o v e re d o f re c o g n iz a b le le a d p o iso n in g o r t<x o th e r d is e a s e r e s u l t i n g from th e use o f e th y l g a so lin e . Then they summarise , th e m a tte r in t h i s se n te n c e , "In viewr o f th e s e c o n c lu sio n s your committee begs to rep o rt th a t in th e ir opinion ___ I xhinx I should read them i n t h e i r own w ords. The Committee concluded th a t d riv e rs o f c a rs u sin g eth y l g aso lin e as a fu el and in which th e co n cen tratio n of ' t e t r a - e t h y l lead was n o t g r e a te r th a n one p a r t to 13 hundred p a r ts by volume o f g a s o lin e showed no d e f i n i t e signs of lead adsorption a fte r exposures approxim ating ^ two y e a rs . (2 ) Employees o f g arag es engaged in th e handling and re p a irin g of autom obiles and employees of au tom obile s e rv ic e s t a tio n s may show evidence o f le a d a b s o rp tio n and s to r a g e , a s in d ic a te d by th e le a d c o n te n t o f th e fece s, and th e appearance o f stip p led c e lls in th e ^ bleed. In garages and s ta tio n s in which eh ty l g asoline was used th e amount c f apparent a b so rp tio n and a to ra g e was somewhat in c re a s e d , b u t th e e f f e c t was s l i g h t in com parison w ith t h a t shown by w orkers in o th e r i n d u s t r i e s w here th e r e vfas a se v ere le a d h a z a rd " . That i s our G-roup E. "And f o r 4 th e periods o f exposures studied was not s u ffic ie n t to produce d e te c ta b le symptoms c f le a d p o iso n in g , ( 3 ) In th e regions in which eth y l gaso lin e has been used to th e - g r e a te s t e x te n t as a motor f u e l f o r a p erio d o f between two and th r e e y e a rs no d e f i n i t e cases have been d isc o v e re d c f recognizable lead poisoning or tx other disease re su ltin g from th e use o f e th y l g aso lin e . Then they summarise f th e m a tte r in t h i s sen ten ce. "In view o f th e s e so acid's Ions your committee begs to rep o rt th a t in th e ir opinion th e r e a r e a t p re s e n t no good grounds f o r p r o h ib itin g th e use of eth y l gasoline of the com position sp ecified as a motor fu e l, provided th a t i t s d is trib u tio n and use are c o n tr o lle d by p ro p er r e g u la tio n s " , and so on . Then th e y 13 n r LeaKe sa y : "In c o n c lu sio n we beg to say t h a t we a r e co nscious o f th e f a c t t h a t th e co n c lu sio n s to w hica we have coiae i n t h i s re p o rt, although based upon most c a re fu l and co n scie n tio i in v e stig a tio n s, are subject to th e c ritic ism th a t they have been d eriv ed from th e study o f a r e la tiv e ly sm all number ^ o f in d iv id u a ls who w ere exposed to th e e f f e c t s o f e th y l g a s o lin e f o r a p e rio d o f tim e co m p arativ e ly b r i e f when we ^ consider the p o s s ib ilitie s in connection w ith lead poisoning. A mere ex ten siv e study was not p o ssib le on account of th e ; lim ited tim e. I t remains p o ssib le th a t, i f th e use of leaded g a s o lin e s becomes w id esp read , c o n d itio n s may a r i s e very ; d if f e r e n t from th o se s tu d ie d by us w hich would re n d e r i t s u se more o f a hazard th a n 'would ap p ear to be th e case from t h i s in v e s tig a tio n . Longer e x p e rie n c e may show t h a t even s lig h t sto rag e o f lead as was o b serv ed .in th ese stu d ie s may le a d e v e n tu a lly - in s u s c e p tib le in d iv id u a ls to recognisable lead poisoning or to chronic degenerative ; d iseases o f a le s s obvious ch aracter , Q May one i n t e r p r e t t h a t i n t h i s way: t h a t your Committee consider th a t as th e re su lt of th e ir in v estig atio n .: th e r e was no evidence a t a l l to show t h a t t h e r e was ' danger to h ealth ? -- - That is -tru e . ' v Q But a s s c i e n t i f i c men th e y s a id : "e should l i k e th e s e observations to be continued for fu rth e r years"? ---- p r e c i s e l y . - ,: $ That is: what i t came t o ? -----Yes, q .,8o f a r as your o b se rv a tio n s w ent, th ey d id not in d ic a te t h i s re p o rt although based upon most c a re fu l and conscientious in v e stig a tio n s, are subject to the criticism th a t they have oeen d eriv ed from th e study o f a r e la tiv e ly sm all number o f in d iv id u a ls who were exposed to th e e f f e c t s o f e th y l g a s o lin e f o r a p e rio d o f tim e co m p arativ ely b r i e f when we consider the p o s s ib ilitie s in connection w ith lead poisoning. b A more ex ten siv e study was not p o s s ib le on account o f th e lim ited tim e. I t remains p o ssib le th a t, i f th e use of leaded g a s o lin e s becomes w id esp read , c o n d itio n s may a r i s e very d if f e r e n t from th o se stu d ie d by us which would ren d er i t s use more of a hazard th an would appear to be th e case from t h i s in v e s tig a tio n . Longer e x p e rie n c e may show t h a t even s lig h t sto rag e o f lead as was observed in th e se stu d ie s may le a d e v e n tu a lly in s u s c e p tib le in d iv id u a ls to recognisable lead poisoning or to chronic degenerative d iseases o f a le s s obvious character*', Q 'lay .one i n t e r p r e t t h a t i n t h i s way; t h a t your Committee consider th a t as the re su lt of th e ir in v estig atio n th e r e was no evidence a t a l l tc show t h a t th e r e was danger tc health? --- That is tru e . Q But as s c i e n t i f i c men th e y s a id : "e should liK e th e s e observations to be consinued fo r fu rth e r years? ---- p r e c i s e ly . That i s what i t came to ? ----- Yes, .; 0, so f a r as your o b s e rv a tio n s w ent, th e y did not in d ic a te danger a t a l l ? ---- None w h atev er. 0, I thinK f u r th e r s tu d ie s have been c a r r ie d o u t? ---- G-roups o f exposed p erso n s a t th e same and s im ila r p la c e s have been stu d ie d w ith c o n tr o ls by O ffic er ~ " " ie a lth S erv ice and ch em ists from th e U n iv e rsity Uilc in s ta n c e o f th e 14 L3 . ^f industry concerned. ^ U :L..A b K : ? ? ^ " C. f.'-./'/T- /"'\.~C) !- A : L \ \'.- < ^ ''V q, I thinK we nave been to ld t h a t you w ere In to u c h with, th o se f u r t h e r s tu d ie s t h a t have been m a d e ? ---- ; Yes. I saw t h e i r g e n e ra l p la n . I w atched some o f th e exam inations Ca ^ a (U-j- i `- t h a t were b ein g made, and- I locked o v er ,,and e d ite d cnassEawPSel th e re p o rt oefore i t was made. Q, i s i t your d e f i n i t e o p in io n t h a t th e s e f u r th e r ex am in atio n s have been r e l i a b l e ? ---- I t is .A A A ft Q I thinx I am r i g h t i n . saying th a t at least s e v e ra l men whose e x c r e ta has been examined now f o r / f o u r y e a rs show l i t t l e o r no more lead in th e excreta today than they did four y ears ago, a lth o u g h th e y have been exposed to th e same r i s t t , i f th e r e i s a ris K , r ig h t th ro u g h ? ---- Yes. i That is generally th e r e s u lt o f th o se fu rth e r stu d ies? ---- That i s g e n e ra lly th e r e s u l t ; i t shows no d if f e r e n c e from th e r e s u l t s t h a t we p u b lish e d i n t h i s B u l le t in . Q no they su p p o rt, as f a r as they go, th e evidence which th e Government Oomiaittee g o t t o g e t h e r ? ---- They do. Q So t h a t so f a r th e r e i s n o th in g to in d ic a te t h a t i f you 4 ca rry on t h i s worh f o r 20 y e a rs you w ill g et a g re a te r amount o f le a d i n th e e x c re ta ? ---- There i s n o th in g w h a te v e r. Q N othing to show t h a t ? ----- No. Q For fo u r y e a rs you d id n o t g e t any more i n ? -----Tha*c i s rig h t. . ' ^ Q Was th e r e any o th e r p a r t i c u l a r in d ep en d en t in v e s t i g a t i o n o f / ('V*? ' \vto ' p o s s ib le harm ful e f f e c t s from e th y l g a s o lin e made by th e - U nited s t a t e s p u b lic H e a lth s e rv ic e ? ---- By means o f ' p r iv a te en q u iry and by th e u se o f th e p re s s C lip p in g Bureau th o se f u r th e r s tu d ie s t n a t nave oeeu m a u e t---- I saw t h e i r g e n e ra l p la n , I- w atched some o f th e exam inations Cv-A-A t h a t were bein g made, and I locked over .and e d ite d qaasSEWMBly th e re p o rt oefore i t was made. q is i t your d e fin ite opinion th a t th ese fu rth e r examinations have been r e l i a b l e ? ---- I t is./v -'v ^ 0 ^ a *. ^ : q i thinX I am r i g h t i n say in g t h a t s e v e ra l men whose e x c r e ta ' . at least has been examined now for^/four y e a rs show l i t t l e o r no more ~ lead in th e excreta today than they did four y ears ago, a lth o u g h th e y have been exposed to th e same r i s x , i f th e r e i s a ris K , r ig h t th ro u g h ? ---- Yes. q That is generally th e r e s u lt o f those fu rth e r stu d ies? ---- That i s g e n e ra lly th e r e s u l t ; i t shews no d if f e r e n c e from th e r e s u l t s t h a t we p u b lish ed in t h i s B u l le t in , q Do th ey s u p p o rt, as f a r as th ey go, th e evidence w hich th e Government Committee got t o g e t h e r ? ---- They do. q sc t h a t so f a r th e r e i s n o th in g to in d ic a te t h a t i f you 4 c a rry on t h i s worx f o r 20 y e a rs you w i l l g e t a g r e a te r amount o f lead i n th e e x c r e t a ? ---- There i s n o th in g 'w hatever. q N othing to shew th a t ? ----- No. q For fo u r y e a rs you d id n o t g e t any more in ? ----- That i s rig h t. m- q Was th e r e any o th e r p a r t i c u l a r in dependent in v e s tig a tio n o f p o s s ib le h arm ful e f f e c t s from e th y l g a s o lin e made by th e U nited s t a t e s p u b lic H e a lth s e rv ic e ? ---- By means o f p r iv a te en q u iry and by th e u se o f th e P re ss C lip p in g Bureau we t r i e d to a s c e r t a i n w hether anyone had h ea rd o f any in ju r y from th e u se o f t h i s su b sta n c e , and we found no c a se . We-also asKed th e s ta te H ealth O fficers to a s c e rta in i f any had o c c u rre d -- 30 f a r a s th e y could -- and we have g o t 'i th e r e p l i e s to th e surgeon G en eral, who was h e re th e o th e r L4 Dr Leake day, t h a t up "to t h a t tim e tn.ey had found none, 0 Your r e s u l t s have been e n t ir e ly n e g a tiv e so f a r ? ---- E n tir e ly n e g a tiv e , ' q Do you th in k i f th e r e had been i l l e f f e c t s the:/ m ight h av e . been e a s ily overlooked o r rem ained u n re p o rte d ? ---- That i s th e case w ith any d ise ase m co n dition; out as I mentioned b efo re, th is has oeen th e suoject of p a rtic u la r public , a g i t a t i o n and concern on th e p a r t o f th e H e a lth a u t h o r i t i e s , -, and i t has oeen in th e M edical jo u rn a ls a3 w e ll; so I b e lie v e i t would be much l e s s l i k e l y to be overlooked th a n in th e ` case of other in ju rie s, v 3, Then I b e lie v e you su g g ested c e r t a i n r e g u la tio n s I n th e " U nited s t a t e s ? ---- In conform ity Te i t h th e su g g e stio n and o f th e Committee re g u la tio n s were drawn up and th ey were p rin te d i n t h i s same B u lle tin , T h ere were fo u r s e ts o f r e g u la tio n s ; f i r s t fo r th e manufacture of te tra -e th y l lead and the b le n d in g o f th e e th y l lead to make e th y l f l u i d , secondly , f o r m ixing th e e th y l f l u i d w ith th e g a s o lin e to make e th y l g a so lin e ; th ird ly fo r th e d is trib u tio n of et^yJl g aso lin e, and fo u rth ly for the autom obile garages, re p a ir shops, serv ice s ta tio n s and f i l l i n g s ta tio n s . Q, I f th o s e r e g u la tio n s t h a t you su g g e sted w ere a b s o lu te ly ' c a r e f u lly observed everyw here, would you have a more c a re fu l s ta te o f th in g s th an you had when you were making your . y}\ e x p e r im e n ts ? ---- oh v ery much more. [ V'i'n q N otw ithstanding th a t fa c t you fe e l i t d esirab le to ' su g g e st th e s e r e g u la tio n s ? ---- Yes. I t was obvious th a t . th e f i r s t p a rt of th se re g u la tio n s, or something analogous. * KE o o ir d i Uu l' t'COUi.U>J u-xvw ---- E n tir e ly n e g a tiv e , ' q Do you th in k i f th e r e Had been i l l e f f e c t s th e y m ight H ave; - been e a s ily overlooked o r rem ained u n re p o rte d ? ---- That i s th e case with, any d ise a se co n d itio n ; but as I mentioned b e f o r e ,th is Has been th e su b je c t o f p a r tic u la r p u b lic , a g ita tio n and concern on th e p a rt of th e H ealth a u th o ritie s , and i t has been in th e M edical jo u rn a ls as w e ll; so I b e lie v e i t would be much l e s s l i k e l y to be overlooked th a n in th e case o f o th er in ju r ie s . ' . q Then I b e lie v e you suggested c e r ta in re g u la tio n s i n th e . U nited s t a t e s ? ---- In conform ity 'tf ith th e su g g e stio n and o f th e Committee re g u la tio n s were drawn up and they were p rin te d i n t h i s same B u lle tin , T h ere were fo u r s e ts o f r e g u la tio n s : f i r s t fo r th e manufacture of te tra -e th y l lead and the b le n d in g o f th e e th y l lead to make e th y l f l u i d , secondly f o r m ixing th e e th y l f l u i d w ith th e g a s o lin e to make e th y l gasoline; th ird ly for the d istrib u tio n of ethyl gasoline, and fo urthly for the autom obile garages, re p air shops, serv ice s ta tio n s and f illi n g s ta tio n s . q I f those reg u la tio n s th a t you suggested were ab so lu tely c a r e f u lly observed everyw here, would you have a more c a r e f u l s ta te o f th in g s th an you had when you were making your ex p erim en ts? ---- oh v ery much more. q .N otw ithstanding th a t fa c t you fe e l i t d esirab le to su g g e st th e s e r e g u la tio n s ? ---- Y es, i t was obvious t h a t . . th e f i r s t p a rt of th ese re g u la tio n s, or something analogous to them, w ere needed on account o f th e d eath s t h a t had occurred in connection w ith the pure substance, ; q That was th e m anufacture? ---- Y es. . q But I am th in k in g o f th e g arag es w here th e y u se camm t h i s Dr Leatte com mercial m ix tu re? ---- As a m a tte r o f f a c t th e surgeon G eneral, a p a rt from th e Committee, would not countenance th e use of th is m a te ria l i f i t s sa fe ty simply depended on th e c a rry in g o u t by so many in d iv id u a ls o f such r e g u la tio n s i n d e t a i l a s a r e s e t down h e re f o r au to m o b ile g a ra g e s, re p a ir shops, serv ice s ta tio n s and f illi n g s ta tio n s . Of co u rse th e s e r e g u la tio n s a re proposed r e g u la tio n s : i t i s not w ith in th e a u th o rity o f th e P ederal Government o f th e U nited s t a t e s to matte such r e g u la tio n s f o r in d iv id u al in d u strie s, but they are proposed fo r adoption by th e v a rio u s s t a t e s , so f a r I ttnow only one s t a t e has adopted them; and a s f a r as I ttnow i t was o n ly th e f i r s t th re e s e ts o f re g u la tio n s th a t i have just enumerated However Swr^ihe C orporation which i s engaged in th e d is tr ib u tio n of th is product, agreed w ith th e surgeon General th a t they would be c a r r ie d o u t, and as f a r a3 I ttnow th e y have been e n tire ly . Those f i r s t th re e s e ts o f re g u la tio n s , on th e , m an u factu re, m ixing and d i s t r i b u t i o n . - ~ As f a r a s th e l a s t f - s e t i s soncerned p a r tic u la r ly th a t i s aimed -- as i th in tt you may see -- towards'""what was b ro u g h t o u t a s e v id e n t from our in v e s tig a tio n of lead g aso lin e -- .thatmis:: . . . - th a t the g reat danger in autom obile garages is caroon monoxide, and i t was done not w ith th e view th a t th a t r e g u la tio n s would n e c e s s a r ily be ad o p ted . Tfe r e a l i s e ^ t h a t no.machinery ex isted fo r th e ir a c tiv e enforcem ent, but as a wannihg and as a c r ite r io n fo r th e carry in g out of proper precautions in garages* th e use o f t h i s m a te ria l i f i t s sa fe ty 3imply depended on file c a rry in g o u t by so many in d iv id u a ls o f such, r e g u la tio n s i n d e t a i l as a r e s e t down h e re f o r au to m o b ile g a ra g e s, re p a ir shops, serv ice s ta tio n s and f i l l i n g s ta tio n s . Of c o u rse th e s e r e g u la tio n s a re proposed r e g u la tio n s : i t i s not w ith in th e a u th o rity o f th e F ed eral Government o f th e U nited s t a t e s to mcKe such r e g u la tio n s f o r in d iv id u al in d u strie s, hut they are proposed fo r adoption by th e v a rio u s s t a t e s , so f a r I Know only one s t a t e has adopted them; and a s f a r a s I Know i t was o n ly th e f i r s t th re e se ts of reg u la tio n s th a t I have ust enumerated. However fsMi^the C o rp o ratio n w hich i s e n g a g ed . : in th e d i s t r i b u t i o n o f -cnis p ro d u ct, agreed w ith th e surgeon General th a t they would be c a r r ie d o u t, and as f a r a s I Know th e y have been e n t i r e l y , 'Those f i r s t th r e e s e ts o f r e g u la tio n s , on th e m an u factu re, m ixing and d i s t r i b u t i o n , - - As f a r a s th e l a s t se t is soncerned p a r tic u la r ly th a t i s aimed -- as I thinK you may see -- tow ards what was b ro u g h t out a s e v id e n t from our in v e s tig a tio n of lead g aso lin e -- .th a t-is-: . . . th a t th e g re a t dange-r in autom obile garages i s caroon monoxide, and i t was done not w ith th e view th a t th a s r e g u la tio n s would n e c e s s a r ily be ad o p ted . We r e a iis e c lth a t ' no.machinery ex isted fo r th e ir a c tiv e enforcem ent, but as a wanning and as a c r ite r io n fo r th e carry in g out of proper precautions in garaged* Q Should I be rig h t in saying th a t you thinK th o se p recau tio n s ought to be observed in garages, whether they are using ethyl g aso lin e or whether they are using ordinary p etro l? ---- That i s e x a c tly so . These w ere f o r a l l g arag e s w hether they were using eth y l g aso lin e or ordinary g aso lin e, , 0wUQ 17 ?1 Dr Leake q i n o th e r words you c o n s id e r no g r e a t e r p r e c a u tio n s a r e necessary i f they are using e th y l gasolin e than w ith ordinary p etrol? Hot n ecessa ry ,* but a d v isa b le* So fa r as we have d eterm in ed we rhave n o t found any in j u r y from th e u s e o f t h i s , b u t we do d e p r e c a te any more l e a d i n t h e human economy th an i s n e c e s s a r y . I: q q u i t e . A n yth in g you can do to l e s s e n i t you w ould l i k e to ; | do? So much th e b e t t e r : b u t we have n o t found t h a t i t is necessary, i q The Surgeon G en er a l' s a t t i t u d e I u n d e r sto o d was t h i s : t h a t i i f th e p u b lic s a f e t y co u ld o n ly be se c u r e d by th e s t r i c t observance o f th ese reg u la tio n s in the garages, than the m a t e r ia l ough t n o t to be u s e d ? ----- Then th e m a t e r ia l ough t i not to be u sed . q Because you r e a lis e th at you cannot secure clo se observance o f regu lation s such as those, in every garage? -- - P r e c ise ly , q I t w ould be j u s t th e same i n t h i s c o u n tr y , o f c o u r s e . Does i t seem l i k e l y th a t le s s obvious forms o f p oison in g than w ere found by th e Surgeon G eneral' s Committee had occurred? 4 ---- I t would seem l ik e l y th at i t th ere were l e s s obvious form s o f p o iso n in g i n any c o n sib er a b le number th e more ' 0C ' ,r obvious forms w ou ld /also in a few , inasmuch as the exposure - and th e s u s c e p t i b i l i t y o f d i f f e r e n t in d iv id u a ls v a ry so g r e a t ly , and inasmuch a s we have had no in s ta n c e s o f th e obvious, and ty p ic a l forms o f p o iso n in g , th a t I can d isc o v e r , we have no reason to suppose th a t the l e s s obviou s forms Wi o f poisoning are going on. r q q u it e . Have you g o t an yth in g to sa y a s to th e p o s s ib le o r d in a r y p e tr o l? -- Hot n e c essa ry ,* but a d v is a b le . So f a r as we have determ ined w efhave n o t found any in ju r y from th e u se o f t h i s , but we do d e p reca te any more le a d i n th e ' human economy th an i s n e c e s s a r y . q, Q u ite . A n yth in g you can do to l e s s e n i t you w ould l i i e to d o ? -----So much th e b e t t e r : b u t we h ave n o t found t h a t i t is necessary. Q The Surgeon G en er a l' s a t t i t u d e I u n d e r sto o d was t h i s : th a t i f th e p u b lic s a f e t y could o n ly be secu red by th e s t r i c t ; observance o f th ese regu lation s in the garages, than the ) m a t e r ia l ough t n o t t o be u sed ? --~ Then th e m a t e r ia l o u g h t -l not to be u sed . Q Because you r e a lis e th at you cannot secure clo se observarce o f r e g u la t io n s su ch a s t h o s e , i n e v er y garage? ----- P r e c i s e l y . Q I t w ould be j u s t th e same i n t h i s c o u n tr y , o f c o u r se . Does i t seem l i v e l y th a t le s s obviou s forms o f p oison in g than were found by th e Surgeon G eneral' s Committee had occurred? ----- I t w ould seem l i i e l y th a t Iff t h e r e w ere l e s s o b v io u s form s o f p o iso n in g i n any c o n sib e r a b le number th e more OCCU~ obvious forms wouldj.also in a few , inasmuch as th e exposure * and th e s u s c e p t i b i l i t y o f d i f f e r e n t in d iv id u a ls v a ry so g r e a t ly , and inasmuch a s we have had no in s ta n c e s o f th e obvious and ty p ic a l forms o f p oiso n in g , th a t I can d isc o v e r , we have no reason to suppose th a t the l e s s obvious forms o f poisoning are going on. Q Q u ite, Have you g o t an yth in g to sa y a s to th e p o s s ib le poisoning by te tr a eth y l lead in g a so lin e being loohad upon a s a d i f f e r e n t t h in g from le a d p o i s o n i n g ? -----P r o f e s s o r D ixon would probably be b e tte r q u a lifie d to s p e a i o f th a t th a n m y s e lf . The c a s e s o f a c u te t e t r a e t h y l le a d p o is o n in g ./ from th e pure su b sta n c e have n o t been e s s e n t i a l l y d i f f e r e n t Br Leaice. from th e c a s e s o f le a d en cep h a lo p a th y t h a t we do en c o u n te r: r e s tle s s n e s s , lo s s o f s le e p , low er blood p ressu re, d eliriu m , dreams, a l l occurred. I t i s p o ssib le o f course that such a t h in g may be -- and t h e r e a r e o t h e r form s o f p ouiso n in g ,, n o f c o u r s e . We have on r e c o r d , f o r exam ple# ir o n e w eoate poisoning. But i t i s p ossib le th at any m etal fix ed in th e c e n t r a l nervous sy stem may g iv e r i s e to s im ila r symptoms. We h ave no ground s f o r b e l i e v i n g t h a t t h e r e i s a slo w chronic form ofera fcral le a d poison in g a s d is t in c t from ordinary lead p oison in g. I t i s the accum ulated a c tio n o f lea d that we are a fra id o f in t h is w hole m atter: th a t i s the only thing -- fear for the general public. . q Bo you c o n sid e r th e r e i s a g r e a t danger to th e g e n e r a l p u b lic -- you do n o t I su p p ose -- from th e u s e o f t h i s m a t e r i a l ? ----- We do n o t -- a b s o l u t e l y . q The d a ru g er t o th e g a ra g e w ork ers who a r e ex p o sed to t h i s * '. m a t e r ia l i s much g r e a t e r and i f th e y do n o t s u f f e r you w ould argu e --------? ---- That th e p u b lic i s e n t i r e l y s a f e . , , q Have you a n y th in g to sa y a s to w h eth er r e s t r i c t i v e a c t i o n 1:1 should be continued or n o t, in regard to the d istr ib u tio n ; o f t h i s m a te r ia l? ---- We have foun d no ground s f o r condemna t i o n . We a r e t o l d th a t th e r e i s the. econom ic v a lu e i n th e i s : W*- t-'-O o\> u s e o f th e p r o d u c t. We do hope th a t, o t h e r means may be v found fo r reducing th e xno citing q u a lit ie s o f g a s o lin e oth er than by the u se o f le a d . There are othqr su b sta n ces, ~\ v h J d . , ) such a s fo r exam ple, ir o n carboalwue and benzine. -- we do not f e e l t h a t th e y a r e any s a f e r , a t anv r a t e . We inow th e a c t i o n o f i r o n c a r b o njSabAte'e on whit;e b lo o d c o r p u s c le s , v~u-, w j>- j. v J.O y u o B iu iB ox c o u r s e im a c s u c A a th in g may be -- and th e r e a r e o th e r form s o f p o iso n in g ., n > (3$yvV&A'~'C4X- o f c o u r s e . We have o n r e c o r d , f o r exam ple^ i r o n oafrma t e poisoning. But i t i s p ossib le th at any m etal fix ed in th e c e n t r a l nervous sy stem may g iv e r i s e to s im ila r symptoms, We h ave no grounds f o r b e l i e v i n g t h a t t h e r e i s a slo w c h r o n ic form o f era fcral le a d p o is o n in g a s d i s t i n c t from ordinary lead p oison in g. Zt i s the accum ulated a c tio n o f lea d th at we are a fra id o f in t h is whole m atter: th a t i s the on ly th in g -- fea r fo r the gen eral public* . Q, Bo you c o n s id e r th e r e i s a g r e a t danger to th e g e n e r a l p u b lic -- you do n o t I su p p ose -- from th e u s e o f t h i s m a te r ia l? -- We do n o t "-- a b s o l u t e l y , <5, Ihe d a iu g e r t o th e g a ra g e w ork ers who a r e ex p o sed to t h i s m a t e r ia l i s much g r e a t e r and i f th e y do n o t s u f f e r you w ould a r g u e ---------? ---- That th e p u b lic i s e n t i r e l y s a f e , q, Have you a n y th in g to sa y a s to w h eth er r e s t r i c t i v e a c t i o n . should be continued o r n o t, in regard to the d is tr ib u tio n o f t h i s m a te r ia l? - -- We have found no ground s f o r condemna t i o n . We a r e t o l d th a t th e r e i s t h a econom ic v a lu e i n the W* Q-u: t' -O s-'-v o\ u s e o f th e p r o d u c ts We do hope th a t, o t h e r means may be "7> * found f o r red u c in g th e iicnocitin g q u a l i t i e s o f g a s o l i n e o th er than by the u se o f le a d . There a re o th er su b sta n ces. Hi su ch a s f o r exam p le, i r o n carbona& e and benz$$xfk -- we do n o t f e e l t h a t th e y a re any s a f e r , &% any r a t e . We itnow ~ V Vvi th e a c t i o n o f ir o n carb on**<1eno.n w h it e b lo o d c o r p u s c le s , but we have n ot in v e stig a te d that m a teria l which i s w id e ly uadd i n th e U n ite d S t a t e s f o r t h i s same purpose,* but we &o '" * not see th at there i s any reason a t a l l for prohibition: sa le ,^ a n d c e r t a in ly no more reason than when these'; r e su lts were published in 1926. 19 Dr Leake. Would you go as f a r a s to s a y t h e r e i s l e s s r e a so n , by r e a so n o f th e fu r t h e r o b s e r v a t io n s t h a t have b een made? ----- Y es, X th in k t h a t w ould 1a s a f e : th a t th e f u r t h e r o b s e r v a t io n s have confirm ed u s and th e r e fo r e made th e p o s s i b i l i t y o f - danger l e s s l i k e l y . The com parison m igh t p o s s i b l y be made w ith su c h a t h in g a s w h ite b read . Some o f u s m igh t p r e fe r .i ; w h ole w heat bread f o r v a r io u s r e a s o n s , bu t th a t would n o t "; lea d us to decree th at w h ite bread should be barred from th e m ark et. The com parison i s n o t e n t i r e l y a p t . Would you say i t was t h e g e n e r a l o p in io n among e n g in e e r s in America -- perhaps i t i s n o t a f a i r q u estio n to ask ' and you can d e c lin e to answer i t -- but i s i t th e g e n e ra l / o p in io n among e n g in e e r s , a3 f a r a s you can a s c e r t a i n , th at t h i s m a teria l i s o f con sid erab le v a lu e to mix w ith p e tr o l fo r th e purpose o f preventing knock and im proving th e e f f i c i e n c y o f e n g i n e s ? -----When t h i s r e p o r t was g iv en by th e Committee ( t h is i s sim ply h e a r sa y ) th e P re sid e n t o f the S o c iety o f in g in e e r s rose in the m eeting and sa id ; th a t was the.m ost'im p ortan t d e c isio n th at could p o ssib ly be made fo r a u to m o b ile d e s ig n . You mean by th a t th a t in h is o p in io n i t was o f v e r y r e a l v a l u e ? ----- I t w as v e r y v a lu a b le and v e r y im portant. 3 I suppose i f in America you had been s a t is f ie d th a t i t was o f no r e a l v a lu e would you have sa id : "In uyt view o f t h e ^ e s ir a b ilit y o f having fu e l lik e th is i t had b e t t e r n o t be u s e d * ? ----- We w ould have no garound f o r d o in g t h a t even -- on th e b a s i s o f I th in k th a t would sa fe : th a t the fu r th e r o b serv a tio n s have confirm ed u s and t h e r e f o r e made th e p o s s i b i l i i y o f danger l e s s l i k e l y . The com parison m igh t p o s s i b l y be made w ith su ch a t h i n g a s w h ite b read . Some o f u s m igh t p r e fe r w hole wheat bread fo r v a r io u s r e a so n s, but th a t would n o t lea d us to decree that w h ite bread should be barred from th e m arket. The comparison, i s n ot e n t i r e l y a p t. Q, Would you sa y i t was t h e g e n e r a l o p in io n among e n g in e e r s in America -- perhaps i t i s n o t a f a i r q u e stio n to ask and you can d e c lin e to answer i t -- but i s i t th e g en era l o p in io n among e n g in e e r s , a s f a r a s you can a s c e r t a i n , th at t h is m a teria l i s o f con sid erab le v a lu e to mix w ith p e tr o l for th e purpose o f preventing knock and im proving th e e f f i c i e n c y o f e n g i n e s ? -----When t h i s r e p o r t was g iv e n by th e Committee ( t h is i s sim ply h e a r sa y ) th e P r e sid e n t o f th e S o c ie ty o f E ngineers rose in the m eeting and sa id th a t was th e m ost im portant d e c isio n th at could p o ssib ly be made fo r a u to m o b ile d e s ig n . Q Tou mean by th a t th a t in h is o p in io n i t was o f v e r y r e a l value? -- I t was v e r y v a lu a b le and v ery im portant. q, I su p p ose i f i n A m erica y o u had b een s a t i s f i e d t h a t i t was o f no r e a l v a lu e would you have s a id : "In view of th e ^ d e sir a b ility o f having fu e l lik e th is i t had b e t t e r n o t be u s e d "? ----- We w ould have *^ no ground fo r doin g th a t even -- on th e b a s is o f our in v e stig a tio n . 20 Dp LeaKe SIR GEORGE BUOHMAiT: I thinK you have answered alm o st a l l th e q u estio n s th a t I wanted to p u t. Ju st to have i t c le a rly on cur no te: what ex actly i s your p o sitio n in th e United S ta te s H e a lth S e r v i c e ? ---- I ara a surgeon and a re g u la r commissioned O fficer o f th e u n ited s ta te s P u b lic H ealth serv ice, and I have been en tru sted w ith th is in v e stig a tio n . Q You a r e a w h o le-tim e s a la r ie d o f f i c e r o f th e U nited s t a t e s H e a lth s e r v i c e ? ---- E n tir e l y . That i s my c a r e e r . q, You do n o t ta x e p r iv a te w o rK ?---- Ho. Q Or g e t rem u n eratio n a p a r t from your s a la r y ? ---- None w h atev er. q So f a r a s th e r e i s any q u e s tio n o f n a tu r a l b ia s in an en q u iry o f t h i s Kind^our b ia s would be th e b ia s o f a S e rv ic e th a t stood to be shot a t i f i t fa ile d to d etect any danger? ---- y e s . I may s a y ,, th a t th e f i r s t tim e t h a t t h i s m a te r ia l , came b e fo re me i t was brought by a man in th e s e r v ic e who afterw ards rendered very considerable aid in th e in v estig a tio n ; and he f e l t th a t th e re was a r e a l danger in th e m a tter. I m yself f e l t a t f i r s t th a t th e re might be a very considerable danger in the substance, ' vi, q The w hole enq u iry o r ig in a te d , a s i u n d e rsta n d i t , i n 1 reference to a possible danger to th e citizen s of the U nited s t a t e s . There was no q u e s tio n t i l l much l a t e r o f any extension of th e tra d e to o th er p a rts o f the world? ---- o. I t was w holly i n th e U nited s t a t e s . q You were lo o k in g a f t e r y o u r own c i t i z e n s ? ---- That was th e whole th in g . . q u estio n s th a t I wanted to p u t. Ju st to have i t c le a rly on our note: what exactly i s your p o sitio n in the united S ta te s H e a lth s e rv ic e ? ---- I am a surgeon and a re g u la r Commissioned O ffic er o f th e U nited s ta te s P u b lic H ealth Service, and I have been en tru sted w ith th is in v e stig a tio n . Q You a r e a w hole-tim e s a la r ie d o f f i c e r o f th e U nited s t a t e s H e a lth s e r v i c e ? ---- E n tir e l y . That i s my c a r e e r . Q, You do n o t ta x e p r iv a te w o rX ?---- Ho. Q. or g e t rem u n eratio n a p a r t from your s a la r y ? . ---- None w h ate v er. i q So f a r a s th e r e i s any Q u estio n o f n a tu r a l b ia s in an en q u iry , o f t h i s Xind^oar b ia s would be th e b ia s o f a S erv ice th a t stood to be shot a t i f i t fa ile d to d etect any danger? ---- Yes, I may say t n a t th e f i r s t tim e t h a t t h i s m a te r ia l came b e fo re me i t was brought by a man in th e s e r v ic e who afterw ards rendered very ccnsideraole aid in the in v e stig a tio i and he f e l t th a t th e re was a re a l danger in th e m atter. I m yself f e l t a t f i r s t th a t th e re might be a very considerabli danger in the substance. Q The whole enq u iry o r ig in a te d , a s I u n d e rsta n d i t , in reference to a possible danger to the citizen s of the U nited s t a t e s . There was no q u e s tio n t i l l much l a t e r o f ' ' * any extension o f th e tra d e to o th er p a rts o f th e world? ---- No, I t was w holly i n th e U nited s t a t e s , Q. You w ere lo o x in g a f t e r yo u r own c i t i z e n s ? ---- That was th e whole th in g , ' Q On t h i s p o in t -about th e p o s s i b i l i t y o f th e r e b eing some U nsuspected form o f chronic poisoning a ttr ib u ta b le to th e e th y l g a s o lin e , having unusual symptoms -- nervous symptoms, th a t have not been associated perhaps w ith lead poisoning a t a l l : t h a t, of course, has been suggested to u s, and 0018201 / L2 Dr LeaKe. th e r e a r e one o r two a n a lo g ie s -- as you Know q u ite w e ll -- . in oth er h is to rie s o f poisoning, where something has occurred and where th e th in g h as been going on f o r some tim e and th e a c tu a l o rig in has not been suspected, I thinK you to ld u s t h a t i f t h a t was o c c u rrin g now you thinfc you would . probably get i t drought to n o tic e , p a rtly in view o f th e pu'olicity th e th in g has a tta in e d , and p a rtly because you have o rd ered th e H e a lth O ffic e rs o f th e s t a t e s to looK a f t e r any Kind o f q u e s tio n o f th a t Kind; but would th a t r e a l l y g et you very f a r ? supposing t h a t some nervous a f f e c t i o n , e e n w il or otherw ise, had been occu rrin g , which had not been a sso c ia te d w ith le ad , but was r e a lly due to eth y l g a s o lin e ; how do you thinK i t would be bro u g h t to n o tic e . Do you thinK you would g et th e c a se s r& ported i n th e v o rd in a ry m ed ical p ap e rs in th e f i r s t in s ta n c e ? ---- They would come to th e a t t e n t i o n o f p h y s ic ia n s in th e f i r s t in s ta n c e , and such cases would appear in m edical p apers, or very possibly be brought d ire c tly to th e a tte n tio n of ' H e a lth O ffic e rs i n one way o r th e o th e r , by th e p h y s ic ia n s 4 - o r by. in d iv id u a ls , Hot in f r e q u e n tly in d iv id u a ls r e p o r t cases to the H ealth O fficers, Q Should a n y th in g o f t h a t s o r t a p p e a r, would i t come to you i n W ashington, Would you be alm o st c e r t a i n to Know o f i t __ any suggestion o f any unusual illn e s s th a t might be a t t r i b u t a b l e to le a d ? ---- Yes; th e whole m achinery would p o in t r i g h t up th e r e , so t h a t any s t a t e H e a lth o f f i c e r o r any m edical o f f ic e r as a m atter o f ro u tin e would send ^ ^ t.,to ^ u s . 1& wi lu r ouiue 'oiiae ana th e a c tu a l o rig in has not been suspected. I thinK you to ld u s t h a t i f t h a t was o c c u rrin g now you th in k you would probably get i t brought to n o tic e , p a rtly in view o f th e p u b lic ity th e th in g has a tta in e d , and p a rtly because you have o rd ered th e H e a lth ffic e rs o f th e S ta te s to looK a f t e r any Kind o f q u e s tio n o f th a t Kind; but would t h a t r e a l ly g et you very f a r ? Supposing t h a t some nervous a f f e c t i o n , r w I or otherw ise, had been occu rrin g , which had not been asso ciated w ith lead , but was re a lly due to eth y l g a s o lin e ; hew do you thinK i t would be b ro u g h t to n o tic e . Bo you thinK you would g et th e c a se s re p o rte d i n th e t? o rd in a ry m ed ical p ap e rs in th e f i r s t in s ta n c e ? ---- They would come to th e a t t e n t i o n o f p h y s ic ia n s i n th e f i r s t in sta n c e , and such cases would appear in m edical papers, or very possibly be brought directL y to th e a tte n tio n of H e a lth O ffic e rs i n one way o r th e o th e r , by th e p h y s ic ia n s 4 o r by in d iv id u a ls . Not in f r e q u e n tly in d iv id u a ls r e p o r t cases to the H ealth O fficers, Q Should an y th in g o f t h a t s o r t a p p e a r, would i t come to you in "Washington. Would you be alm o st c e r t a in to Know o f i t -- any suggestion of any unusual illn e s s th a t might be / ; a t t r i b u t a b l e to le a d ? ---- Yes; th e whole m achinery would p o in t r ig h t up th e r e ,, so th a t * any s ta te H e a lth O ffic er o r any M edical o f f ic e r as a m atter o f ro u tin e would send i t to u s. q Would you s t i l l re g a rd i t as p a r t o f th e b u s in e s s o f th e s e r v ic e to maKe e n q u irie s o f any in d iv id u a l c a se s th ro u g h yo u r own o f f i c e r s ? ---- Yes. . .--.g q Supposing l a te r on any evidence occurred which did give r is e to a b e lie f contrary to what you have a t present on th e 0018203 Dr Bea^e evidence b efore you, th a t a danger was a r is in g from t h i s s u 'd s ta n c e , could we i n England he q u ite s a fe i n assuming th a t o f f ic ia l pu d l i c i t y , through any enquiry in to t h a t m a tte r, would he given? ---- I am su re i t would. For example taKe your own p u b lic H e a lth B u l le t in , w hich g e n e ra lly c o n ta in s th e acco u n t o f any new e n q u ir ie s in to d is e a s e c o n d itio n s , done by your s e r v ic e : m ight we assume we would a t once f in d th e r e s u l t o f any en q u iry th e r e ; or aaxa some o th e r means by w hich we a r e h a b i tu a l ly inform ed o f th e Kind o f d is e a s e and i t s p re v e n tio n ? ---- I am su re you would r e ly n o t only on t h a t , but p ro b ab ly i t would be prom pter than th a t, through the M inistry of H ealth. There was a q u e stio n th e Chairman was asKing you about th e o r i g i n a l c r i t i c i s m o f th e ex p erim en ts th a t w ere made between th e garage worxers and th e c o n tro ls ; i t was said t h a t th e r e w ere two o b je c tio n s : one was t h a t th e c o n tr o ls at were not perhaps p a rtic u la rly healthy people, and the o th e r was th a t th e garage worKers had been taKen from very e x c e lle n t sources. I understood th a t your answer was t h a t th e r e i s f u r th e r ev id en ce i n th e same d i r e c t i o n by what has happened s in c e . Have n o t you had a fte rw a rd s a much more e x te n s iv e s e r i e s o f experim ents i n w hich th e c o n tro ls were, fo r in stan ce , m edical students and people o f t h a t s o r t -- in good c o n d itio n ? ---- There have been. Those were th e e n q u irie s c a rrie d o u t by th e perso n n el at o f th e u n i v e r s i t y C in c in n a ti';. The o b je c tio n , I thinK , t h a t was made i n th e f i r s t p la c e was made to some worK th a t was done previous* to t h i s , more o r le s s along th e -same l i n e s w here .th e c o n tro ls , wer e' "not >qui t ' * ~. * . - . O- - * w 4v u a i i * y in to t h a t m a tte r, would be g i v e n ? ---- I am su re i t w ould. q Por example ta x e your own p u b lic H e a lth B u lle tin , w hich g e n e ra lly c o n ta in s th e acco u n t o f any new e n q u irie s in to d is e a s e c o n d itio n s , done by yotir s e r v ic e : m ight we assume we would a t once f in d th e r e s u l t o f any en q u iry th e r e ; o r a a sa some o th e r means by w hich we a r e h a b itu a lly inform ed vk o f th e 'Kin d o f d i s e a s e a n d i t s p r e v e n t i o n ? ---- I am s u r e you would r e ly n o t only on t h a t , b u t p ro b ab ly i t would be prom pter than th a t, through the M inistry of H ealth. Q There was a q u e s tio n th e Chairman Was asK ing you about th e o r ig in a l c r i t i c i s m o f th e experim ents t h a t w ere made between th e garage worxers and th e c o n tro ls ; i t was said t h a t th e r e w ere two o b je c tio n s : one was t h a t th e c o n tr o ls were not perhaps p a rtic u la rly healthy people, and the o th e r was th a t th e garage warXers had been tax en from very excellent sources, I understood th a t your answer Ar ' was t h a t th e r e i s f u r th e r evidence i n th e same d i r e c t i o n by what has happened s in c e . Have n o t you had a fte rw a rd s a much more e x te n s iv e s e r i e s o f experim ents i n w hich th e co n tro ls were, fo r in sta n c e , m edical students and people o f t h a t s o r t -- in good c o n d itio n ? ---- There have been. Those were th e e n q u irie s c a rr ie d o u t by th e p erso n n el at o f th e U n iv e r s it^ C in c in n a tio . The o b je c tio n , I th in x , - t h a t was made in th e f i r s t p la c e was made to some worx th a t was done previous* to t h i s , more or le s s 'a lo n g th e same l i n e s , where th e c o n tro ls w ere n o t q u ite com parable; * and wfce we f e l t t h a t th e o b je c tio n was p o s s ib ly w e ll ta x e n . Q But you a r e s a t i s f i e d now? ---- Yes, a b s o lu te ly . CHAIRMAN: Your own c o n tr o ls w ere from g arag es and th e y were men o f a s im ila r p o s itio n i n l i f e ? ---- They w ere; and th e K f 0018205 Dr LeaKe g arag es w ere a t l e a s t as good, i n facT, th e y w ere b e tte r than th e best garages where the ethyl gasoline was used. SIR GEORGE BUCHANAN: Have you any o p in io n as to th e d e s i r a b i l i t y o r n e c e s s ity o f t h i s Kind o f experim ental wcrK b ein g co n tin u ed lo n g e r? ---- j u s t alo n g th e same l i n e t h a t you have b e fo re you: th a t is four se ts of comparisons: the use of eth y l gasoline in th e United s ta te s tas spread very w idely. I do n o t b e lie v e i t w i l l be p o s s ib le i n th e f u tu r e to taKe c le a r cut c o n tro l groups and t e s t groups, on account o f th e wide d iffu s io n of th e p ro d u ct: I mean t h a t th e r e i s no garage o r no group o f garage worKers fo r th e fu tu re in any con sid erab le number -- as perhaps you n o tic ed in th e l a s t re p o rt. througha The numbers o f th o s e who have co n tin u ed w ith o u tth e su bstancey* th e four o r fiv e y ears a re dw indling, on account of th e n a tu ra l lab o u r tu rn o v e r, I do not thinK i t w ill be p o ssib le to get groups which w ill be comparable and which w ill be purely co n tro l groups, anil . a t e s t as regards th e exposure to eth y l g aso lin e. I thinK th a t answers your qu estio n . Q You mean th e experim ents w i l l n o t co n tin u e b ecause the conditions w ill not continue? ---- Not e x a c tly alo n g th e s e l i n e s . . CHAIRMAN: You mean you cannot g e t g arag e s in th e b e t t e r whan tiie b e s t garages where th e e th y l g a so lin e was used. SIR GEORGE BUCHANAN: Have you any o p in io n as to th e d e s ir a b ili ty o r n e c e s s ity o f t h i s Kind o f experim ental worK b ein g co n tin u ed lo n g e r? ---- j u s t alo n g th e same li n e t h a t you have b e fo re you: > th a t is four se ts of comparisons: the use of eth y l " gasoline in th e United s ta te s ta s spread very w idely. I do n o t b e lie v e i t w i l l be p o s s ib le i n th e f u tu r e to taKe c le a r cut c o n tro l groups and t e s t groups, on . account of th e wide d iffu s io n o f th e product: \ I mean thaw th e r e i s no g arag e o r no group o f garage worxers fo r th e fu tu re in any considerable number -- as perhaps you n o tic e d i n whe l a s t rep o rt:. throughout The numbers o f th o se who have co n tin u ed w ith o u t'th e su b sta n c e ^ th e four or fiv e y ea rs a re dw indling, on account of th e n a tu r a l la b o u r tu r n o v e r . I do n o t thinK i t w ill be p o ssib le to get groups which w ill be comparable and which w ill be purely co n tro l groups, amt a te s t as regards the exposure to ethyl g aso lin e. I thinK th a t answers your q u estio n . Q You mean th e experim ents w i n n o t co n tin u e b ecau se the conditions w ill not continue? ,,r; b : ---- Not e x a c tly alo n g th e s e l i n e s . . CHAIRMAN:' You mean you cannot g e t g arag e s in th e fu tu re where they are not using echyl gasoline? ---- Where we cannot be su re o f i t . Q. You could go on o b se rv in g th e men where they a re using the ethyl gasoline? , V ---- Q u ite . h e 0018207 24 L5 nr LeaXe SIR &EOR&E BUCHANAN: I n re g a rd to th e r e g u la tio n s f o r th e d is trib u tio n of ethyl gasoline, I have here the re g u la tio n s'th a t are suggested: th a t the co n tain ers sold to th e general p u b lic should he la b e lle d , th a t i t should be used fo r motor fu e l only and not fo r cleaning or any o th er purpose. Have any cases been brought to your n o tic e th a t people have used t h i s fo r cleaning and o th e r purposes? - -. ---- They in d eed have. One o f th e p r o fe s s o r s i n Dr H o w ell's sc h o o l, and a c o lle a g u e o f mine, found th a t h is servant had used i t fo r cLeaning th e flG or, and splashed i t over everything, h is hands and everything e ls e . Q. Obviously i t would be very d e s ir a b le to p re v e n t th a t u se . lh a t I was in te re s te d in was w hether you had come a c ro s s in s ta n c e s o f i t being 4 a c c id e n ta lly o r c a r e le s s ly used i n t h a t way and y e t no p a r t i c u l a r harm had been done? ---- That i s t r u e . 3 Or any harm? v ,) ! X': \ ---- We have found no harm. In th o s e in v e s tig a tio n s . in th e garages i t was splashed round on hands and fa c e s r a th e r in d is c r im in a te l y .. The dye o f co u rse te n d s to Keep i t from b ein g used q u i t e a s much ^ as other gasoline. ui i \ **1U' Xb V^ / XVW- U J U* ^ W* X* * J . < A * dU.*4 4f >MI u, * U th e d is trib u tio n o f eth y l g aso lin e, I nave here the re g u la tio n s'th a t are suggested: th a t the containers sold to th e general pu b lic should be la b e lle d , th a t i t should be used fo r motor fu e l only and not fo r cleaning or any o th er purpose. Have any cases been brought to your n o tic e th a t people have used th is fo r cleaning and o th er purposes? - - - -- They in d eed have. One o f th e p ro fe s s o r s i n Dr Howells sc h o o l, and a c o lle a g u e o f mine, found th a t h is servant had used i t fo r cleaning th e flo o r, and splashed i t ever everything, h is hands and everything e lse . Q. Obviously i t would be very d e s ir a b le to p re v e n t th a t u se . Tnat I was in te re s te d in was w hether you had come a c ro s s in s ta n c e s o f i t being a c c id e n ta lly o r c a r e le s s ly used i n t h a t way and y e t no p a r t i c u l a r harm had been done? ---- That i s t r u e . Q, Or any harm? ---- We have found no harm. In th o s e in v e s tig a tio n s in th e garages i t was splashed round on hands and fa c e s r a th e r i n d i s c r i m i n a t e l y .. The dye o f c o u rse te n d s to Keep i t from b ein g used q u i t e a s much an other gasoline. Q That is th e in te n tio n ? . ---- Yes. K * 0018209 25 Dr BRIDGE: in reg ard to th e se r e g u la tio n s in th e g a ra g e s , am I q u ite c l e a r t h a t th ev were d i r e c t l y m ain ly to th e general health hazards. '. I mentioned carbon N monoxide in answer to S ir F red erick W illis : you w ill see - t h a t th e re is a n o th e r f a c t t h a t was n o t a p p a re n t to me a t t f i r s t : , danger from g a s o lin e i t s e l f . We had n o t a few :;| in s ta n c e s o f p eo p le b e in g f a t a l l y overcome by th e fumes o f ::1 g aso lin e, used p o ssib ly in a confined space; and in the | Southern S tates p e tro l is used a p a rt from eth y l g aso lin e . in c e rta in p a rts of the southern S tates tem peratures are a l i t t l e h ig h e r th a n th ey a re h e r e . Our g a s o lin e is sh ip p ed . in larg e tank c a rs; and I w ill give you an illu s tr a tio n of what happens w ith th e se casu als - tramps I th in k you would c a l l them h e re . Supposing a sudden shower comes a lo n g , th e only th in g th e s e men can g et in to is one of th e s e empty tan k c a r s , which th**e y do; and as th ey ' cone to th e f i l l i n g platform , not in freq u en tly dead tramps are found in these : c a r s , who have been overcome. Of co u rse th e c a rs a re empty.,; but they a re lin e d w ith m oist p e tr o l, and the fumes have overcome them. q Does t h a t g iv e r is e . to .y o u r su g g e stio n f o r th e v e n t i l a t i o n of th e g arag e , in a d d itio n to th e C . O . ? ---- Hes; b u t th e C.O. was th e im p o rta n t th in g . , . q Have you any view as to th e p o s s i b i l i t y of le a d p o iso n in g from th e scrap in g s from the engine? That has been th o u g h t o f . Of course a g r e a t many t h e o r e t i c a l id e a s could pe held about the rate of evaporation and the dust ; in v a r io u s ways, from th e en g in e e x h a u st. We thou ght g e n e ra l h e a l tin h azard ed -- 'Yes. I m entioned carbon monoxide in answer to S ir 'F red e rick W illis : you w ill see th a t th e re is a n o th e r f a c t t h a t was n o t a p p a re n t to me a t f i r s t : , danger from g a s o lin e -i t s e l f . We had n o t a few in stan ces of people being f a t a l l y overcome by the fumes of g aso lin e, used p o ssib ly in a confined space; and in the . Southern S tates p e tro l is used a p a rt from eth y l g a so lin e . ~ m c e rta in p a rts of the southern S tates tem peratures are a l i t t l e higher than they are h ere, our gasoline is shipped in larg e tank c a rs; and I w ill give you an illu s tr a tio n of what happens w ith th ese casu als - tramps I th in k you would c a l l them h e re . Supposing a sudden shower comes a lo n g , th e only th in g th e s e men can g e t in to is one of th e s e empty tank c a r s , which th e y do; and as they come to th e f i l l i n g platform , not in freq u en tly dead tramps are found in these c a r s , who have been overcome. Of co u rse th e c a rs a re empty, but they a re lin e d w ith m oist p e t r o l, and th e fumes have overcome them. 0, Does t h a t give r i s e to -y o u r s u g g e stio n f o r th e v e n t i l a t i o n of th e g a ra g e ,, in a d d itio n to th e C.O'. ? ---- Hes; b u t th e + .. - C.O. was th e im p o rta n t th in g . . . Q. Have you any view as to th e p o s s i b i l i t y of le a d p o is o n in g ..... frata th e sc ra p in g s from th e e n g i n e ? ---- That hag been . th o u g h t o f . Of course a g r e a t many t h e o r e t i c a l id e a s could be held about the rate of evaporation and the duet in v a rio u s ways, from th e en g in e e x h a u st. We th o u g h t . th a t th e p r a c t i c a l sid e of i t was the im portant s id e : "' how m uch t h e s e g a r a g e w o r k e r s 3n d r e p a i r sh p p m en ,< . a c tu a l ly did g e t . ' We co n sid ered not only th e s c ra p in g s .>. from th e cy lin d er heads and th e engine c y lin d e rs - the e x h a u sts and th e m u ffle rs , as we c a l l them: s ile n c e r s 26 r. I x2 Dr Leahe I thinK you c a l l them; h u t we th o u g h t th a t a i l th e se m a tte rs would he covered hy ey-ch: an in v e s tig a tio n as t h i s . J u s t which is- th e most im p o rta n t, we do n o t Know. Dr 381Das: ThanK you. S ir WILLIAM WILLCOX: Dr.LeaKe, you approached t i l e ; in v e s tig a tio n from th e p o in t of view of m e d ic a l men?---- Yes. q And you were Keenly on th e loohout f o r any symptoms of i l l n e s s from le a d t e t r 3 e t h y l ? ---- Yes. 0. You ag ree t h a t le a d t e t r a e th y l a c ts t h e r a p e u t i c a l l y in a di f f er ent manner from in o rg an ic le ad and th a t i t tends to cause insom nia, n au sea, low h io o d p re s s u re and go on. ---- Which a re not. commonly found in o rd in a ry le a d p o is o n in g . q Yes. ---- I do n o t thinK we can s t a t e , how ever, th a t t h a t ie d i f f e r e n t from sev ere a c u te le a d en cep h alo p ath y such as we g e t in o lr country, a t any ra te not in fre q u en tly in our le ad ex p o su re, h u t o*f co u rse v ery much 'le s s f r e q u e n tly than th e o rd in ary foims of lead poisoning. 0, The p o in t I w ish to maKe i s t h a t le a d t e t r a e th y l produces symptoms d if f e r e n t from ch ro n ic le a d p o i s o n i n g ? ---- Acute poisoning from lead te tr a eth y l c e rta in ly does. q Y es. . And th e m ild ca ses ,,o f th e a c u te t e t r a e th y l : p o iso n in g d is p la y symptoms which a re v ery d i f f e r e n t from th o se of o rd in a ry le a d p o iso n in g ? ---- Y es. Q, tak e i t t h a t you agree w ith th e se symptoms g iv e n hy Dr Kehoe. ( in d ic a tin g green volum e). ---- Yes: he has g o t much more experience th an I have. q They co rresp o n d w ith what you have m entioned? ---- Yes. q There is very l i t t l e evidence re a lly as to what are the j u s t which is th e most im p o rta n t, we ho n o t hnovj. Dr BRIDGE: Thanh you. ' 3 i r WILLIAM w il l COX: Dr Lea h e, you approached t h i s . in v e s tig a tio n from th e p o in t of view of m e d ica l men?---- Y es. 0, And you were Keenly on th e lo o h o u t f o r any symptoms of ill n e s s from le a d te tr a eth y l? - -- Yep. 0. You ag ree t h a t le a d t e t r a e th y l a c ts t h e r a p e u t i c a l l y in a d iffe re n t manner from inorganic lead 3nd th a t i t tends to cause insom nia, n ausea, low "blood p re s s u re and so on. ---- Which a re n o t commonly found in o rd in a ry le a d p o is o n in g . q Yes. ---- I do n o t th in h we can s t a t e , how ever, t h a t t h a t i s d i f f e r e n t from se v ere acu te le a d encep h alo p ath y such as we g e t in our count nr, a t any ra te not in freq u en tly in our le a d ex p o su re, h u t of course v ery much l e s s f r e q u e n tly , than th e o rd in ary forms of lead poisoning. q The p o in t I w ish to mahe i s t h a t le a d t e t r a e th y l produces symptoms d if f e r e n t from ch ro n ic le a d p o iso n in g ? ---- Acute v poisoning from ie3d te tr a eth y l c e rta in ly does. Q, Yes . Ana th e m ild cases o f th e acu te t e t r a e th y l poisoning display'sym ptom s which are very d iffe re n t from th o se of o rd in a ry le a d p o iso n in g ? ---- Y es. q. i tah e i t t h a t you agree w ith th e se symptoms g iv e n "by Dr Kehoe. ( in d ic a tin g green volum e). ---- Yes: he has g o t much more ex p erien ce th an I have. q They co rresp o n d w ith what you have m entioned? ---- Yes. q There is very l i t t l e evidence re a lly as to what are the symptoms caused "by v e ry m inute amounts of le a d t e t r a e t h y l , the cases "being d escrib ed e i t h e r as acu te cases or su b -acu te c a se s? ---- Y es. q judging from i t s ac tio n in th e acute ca ses, i t would appearr t h a t i t would p ro b a b ly a c t more s p e c i f i c a l l y on th e c e n tra l 0018213 27 x3. Dr Leake nervous system th a n in o rg a n ic le a d ? ---- That i s so . I take i t th a t dangers from lead te tr a e th y l, as such, would he p a r t l y from sk in a b s o r p t i o n ? ---- Y es. 0, And p a r t l y from th e sw allow ing of th e v ap o u r and in th e in h a la tio n o f i t ? ---- We f e e l t h a t in h a la tio n and sk in a b s o rp tio n a re th e im p o rtan t th in g s , v-- * - - * -f- Did you conduct any ex p erim en ts to show w h eth er an im als . exposed to th e vapour of e th y l p a tro l were a ffe c te d in any way 39 re g a rd s t h e i r nervous system , o r l i v e r , k id n e y s, .. h e a rt and so on? ---- I have done no anim al ex p erim en ts whatever l-Jfc-v-c Q There a re awawASe-r r e c o r d e d . ---- I cannot s t a t e t h i s on my own close o b se rv a tio n , b u t th e re are a few in sta n c e s showing th a t th e se men who have m ild f e r n s of p o iso n in g te n d to g a in w eight a f te r they recover from exposure. That is ra th e r a p e c u lia r * instance. Q, That sometimes o ccu rs in a lc o h o lic c a s e s . You have made no d e ta ile d o b se rv a tio n 's of th e u r in e o r th e f e c e s ? ---- llene w h atev er. The re a s o n th e u rin e was n o t examined was because i t was b eliev ed th a t the e x c re tio n of le ad through the kidneys was somewhat more uniform th a n when v ia th e bo w els, th e l i v e r and go f o r t h : th a t any g r e a t d if f e r e n c e s in any two groups as. re g a rd s le a d exposure would be shown more c l e a r l y by , %:; differences in the f e ta l lead than by difference? in the ' u r in a r y le a d ; and b ein g p re s s e d f o r tim e, we would r a th e r r-\\ e x a in e a la r g e number o f men th a n examine h a l f th e number in both the u rin e and the fe c e s. Q You ag ree t h a t th e le a d which is e x c re te d in th e u r in e must . . come from le a d which has been absorbed in to th e system? iiruuxu oe p a rtx y rroni bjc u i a d s o r p t i o n ? ---- Y es. 0, And p a r t l y from the sw allow ing of th e v ap o u r ana in th e in h a la tio n o f i t ? ---- We f e e l t h a t in h a la tio n and sKin a b s o rp tio n a re th e im p o rtan t th i n g s . I*- (jU-A 10 o . .o-X^ 0. Did you conduct any ex p erim en ts to show w h eth er an im als exposed to th e vapour of e th y l p a tr o l were a ffe c te d in ar.y ^ way as re g a rd s t h e i r nervous system , o r l i v e r , K idneys, ~ h e a rt 3nd so o n ? ---- I have done no anim al ex p erim en ts w hatever. 1 Jr\ -X- 0 There are r e c o r d e d . ---- I cannot s t a t e t h i s on my own , c lo se o b s e rv a tio n , b u t th e re a re a ffew in s ta n c e s showing t h a t th e se men who have m ild form s of p o iso n in g te n d to g a in w eight f a f te r they recover from exposure. That is ra th e r a p e c u lia r ; instance. 0, That sometimes o ccu rs in a lc o h o lic c a s e s . You have made no d e ta ile d o b se rv a tio n ? of th e u r in e o r th e fe c e s? ----- hone w h atev er. The reaso n th e u r in e was n o t examined was because i t wag b e lie v e d t h a t th e e x c re tio n of le a d th ro u gh th e Kidneys was somewhat more uniform th a n when v ia th e bo w els, th e l i v e r and go f o r t h : th a t any g r e a t d if f e r e n c e s in any two groups as reg ard s le a d exposure would be shown more c l e a r l y by s* differences in the f e ta l lead than by difference? in the u r in a r y le a d ; and b ein g p re se e d f o r tim e , we would r a th e r ex a ln e a la r g e number of men th a n examine h a l f th e number, in V;- ' both the u rin e and the fece s. Qy You ag ree t h a t th e le a d w hich is e x c re te d in th e u r in e m ust come from le a d which hag been absorbed in to th e system ? , ---- Y es. in th a t r e s p e c t u rin a ry le a d i s more s i g n i f i c a n t . q, And you would ag ree th a t i f in o rg a n ic le a d i s ta k en th ro u g h th e mouth -- fo r in s ta n c e , sugar of lead - th e re is a very sm all p ro p o rtio n of i t a b s o r b e d ? ---- Y es. fn- Q. T h erefo re i f you f in d le a d in th e f e c e s , you a re .measuring 0018215 28 xiu Dr Leaice V /; \ O O lg o (a) th e le a d which is e x c re te d , and (b ) the le a d which may have been p r e s e n t in th e u rin e h u t which has not. been a b s o r b e d ? ---- A il you can say ab o u t th e le a d in the f e c e s i s , th a t th ere has been exposure, not n ecessarily lead absorption 9, I q u ite a g re e .' These ex p erim en ts are e x t r a o r d i n a r i l y*" i - -o>/ d i f f i c u l t , are not they, f o r determ ining th e se m inute amounts^ of le a d a b s o rp tio n ? R e a lly to have an e f f e c t iv e ' c o n tr o l , i; d one ought to a n a ly se th e fo o d to see i f th e r e i s any le a d in th e food ta k e n ; you ought to do th a t? ---- Yes. -V, q l have been looking a t the d e ta ils in your rep o rt: take group D. That ig one o f th e groups- exposed to e th y l p e t r o l : th a t does give h ig h er fig u re s fo r the lead in the fece s than th e o th e r g r o u p s ? ---- Y es.' q There was d e f i n i t e p o s itiv e evidence th e re ? ---- Yes. q But th e re was r e a l ly l i t t l e o r no d if fe re n c e betw een Groups A & B, and groups B & C ? ---- There was betw een groups A & 3. q iTot v e ry much betqfgfctt A & B, was t h e r e ? . W e l l -------- ;d* q Group D. i s th e one t h a t shows a d ecided d if f e r e n c e : ; a decided increase of lead ; th a t is by the f e t a l .. d e t e r m in a t io n s ? ------1 th in k t h a t would be a 'm a tte r of i n t e r p r e t a t i o n . I t would seem t h a t c. had more th a n A & B, ' - and D. had a l i t t l e more th an C. q That was th e p o in t r e a lly ? ---- Yes. q Group D. i s th e o n ly one t h a t shows a d e f i n i t e in c re a s e . above A, B & C-? D. d id show an in c re a s e o v er A, B & C. On m ight' c o n sid er th a t c. showed an in c re a se over A & B. in t.nv, *o ivrr *~roi-n'.'*. . d .-^ j aii eay ac o u t z&e le a d in the fe c e s Is., t h a t th e r e has "been ex p o su re, n o t n e c e s s a r ily lead. ab so rp tio n - 0, I q u ite a g re e . These ex p erim en ts are e x t r a o r d in a r i ly ... d i f f i c u l t , a re n o t th e y , f o r d eterm in in g th e s e m inute am ounts'5 of le a d ab so rp tio n ? R eally to have an e f f e c tiv e c o n tro l , ' -id one ought to a n a ly se th e fo o d to see i f th e r e i s any le a d In 'd th e food taicenj you ought to do t h a t ? ---- Yes. : q 1 have been looking a t the d e ta ils in your rep o rt: tahe -' group D. That i s one o f th e group? exposed to e th y l p e t r o l : d d t h a t does give h ig h e r f ig u r e s f o r th e le a d i n th e f e c e s th a"n- . 'd>i th e o th e r g r o u p s ? ---- Y e s .' '-:1| q TOiere was d e f i n i t e p o s itiv e evidence t h e r e ? ---- Yes. ' f i q But th e re was r e a l l y l i t t l e o r no d if fe re n c e betw een d . d Groups A & B, and groups B & C ? ---- There was betw een 3 groups A & 3. '' q liot v ery much b e t^ g tn A & B, was t h e r e ? . ---- W e l l --------- d q Group D. i s th e one t h a t shows a d ecided d if f e r e n c e : ` / a decided increase of lead ; th a t is by the f e ta l d e t e r m in a t io n s ? ---- I thinX t h a t would be a m a tte r of i n t e r p r e t a t i o n . I t would seem t h a t C. had more th a n A & B, and D. had a l i t t l e more th a n C. q That was th e p o in t r e a l l y ? ---- Y es. : ......d q Group D. i s - t h e o n ly one t h a t sho?7g a d e f i n i t e in c re a s e above A, B & C - ? ---- D. d id show an in c re a s e o v er A, B & C. One - m ight-.'.consider t h a t C. showed an in c re a s e o v er ----- - V* A & 3. . 'dd:`# q Yes. The f ig u r e s in ta b le 39 show t h a t 56 pet cen t in Group D. had p e rc e n ta g e s of le a d o f .10 1 and .3* 13 oent had amounts v ary in g between .3 and 1 : 2 p e r cent between 2 & 3 ; ; th e re is a d ec id ed d i f f e r e n c e ? ---- Yes. You n o tic e tn o se curves on page llty? H 0018217 -i... 29 -, -. ; . .. m  c5 Dr Le ake q y s ? > I Aid n o tic e them. You agree t h a t when you Have any to x ic su b stan ce a c tin g in any sm all am ounts, i t m ight he ;; ' ra th e r d i f f i c u l t to d isc o v e r any i l l e f f e c ts caused by th e m ? ---- q u ite so . 0 ?or example i t happened in tnif. country in the cage of the P eer p o iso n in g epidem ic: i t was some tim e b e fo re i t was 7 d isc o v e re d th a t a r s e n ic was the c a u se;an d in th e cape of th e where K aero p lan e works r e ,. / t e t ra c h io r-e th a n e was u se d , i t was some "7' tim e b e fo re i t was found t h a t t h i s in c re a s e d i l l n e s s amongst V th e a e ro p la n e w orkers was due to th e t e t r a c h io r-e th a n e ? ----- Yei 0. T herefore you thought i t d e s ir a b le t h a t o b s e rv a tio n s sh o u ld s t i l l c o n t i n u e ? ---- Yes. 0, 30 t h a t any h i t h e r t o u n reco g n ised group o f symptom? which m ight te due to te tr a , e th y l le a d in e th y l p e t r o l m ight be b ro u g h t to y o u r n o t i c e ? ---- Q u ite . We s t i l l th in k , S ir W ililarji, t n a t , w hatever d if fe re n c e th e re m ight be ton i t s a c tio n from o rd in a ry le a d , the le a d would,, be an index o f a n y th in g th a t we could f in d Q Q uite. In th ie problem one is d ealin g w ith two problems r e a l l y : one, th e le a d t e t r a e t h y l , i t s to x ic e f f e c t s ; and ' V::svi : th e o th e r , th e In o rg a n ic compound? of le a d produced by 7 com bustion? -- Yes. . kv q The l a t t e r one is f a m il ia r w ith ae re g a rd s i t s to x ic e f f e c t s ? '' ---- Yea. . ` q But th e form er one i s somewhat r a th e r in th e dark ab o u t?-- Yes \ 1 q You w ill agree th a t sometimes w ith t_ h e se to x ic pub s ta r ces X-)'!\i i f is th e unexpected th a t happens? ---- q u i t e . r y q For example, la d ie ? used t e t r a c h lo rid e earbon (> ) f o r shampooing t h e i r h a i r , and i t was n o t u n t i l one t r a g i c o ccu rren ce t h a t the danger was r e a l i s e d ? ---- That i s so, tnsr:i? ---- Q uite so . Q For example i t Happened in th is country in the cage of the P eer p o iso n in g epidem ic: i t was some tim e "before i t was d isco v ered th a t a rs e n ic was the cau se;an d in th e case of th e where aero p lan e worker?'-,^ /te tra ch i o r -e thane- ra e u sed , i t was some tim e b e fo re i t was found th a t t h i s in c re a s e d i l l n e s s amongst ' } th e ae ro p la n e w orkers was due to th e t e t r a o h lo r-e th a n e ? ---- Ye o. T h erefo re you th o u g h t i t d e s ir a b le t h a t o b s e rv a tio n s sh o u ld s t i l l c o n tin u e ? ---- Y es. . q 3o t h a t any h i t h e r t o u n reco g n ised group o f symptoms 'w hich m igh ib due to t e t r a e th y l le a d in eth y l p e tr o l m ight be brought to ? y o u r n o tic e ? ---- Q u ite . We s t i l l th in k , S ir W illiam , t h a t , w hatever d if fe re n c e th e re m ight be ton i t s a c tio n from o rd in a ry le a d , the le a d 'would be an index o f a n y th in g th a t we could fin e Q Q u ite . In t h i s problem one i? d e a lin g w ith two problem s re a lly : one, the lead te tr a e th y l, it? to x ic e ffe c ts ; and the o th e r , th e in o rg a n ic compound? of le a d produced by c o m b u stio n ? ---- Yes. Q, The l a t t e r one is f a m il ia r w ith as re g a rd s i t s to x ic e f f e c t s ? ---- Yes. 40 ' Q, But th e form er one i s somewhat r a th e r in th e dark ab o u t?---- Yes q You v ;ill agree th a t sometimes w ith t_ n e se to x ic su b sta n c e s i t is th e unexpected th a t happens? ---- q u ite . Q, For exam ple, la d ie s used t e t r a c h lo rid e earbon ( J f o r shampooing t h e i r h a i r , and i t was n o t u n t i l one t r a g i c o ccu rren ce t h a t the danger was r e a l i s e d ? ---- That i s so . * Q, ` I suppose t h k t . t h e e th y l g a e o iin e used in America i s coloured? --- Yes: i t is coloured red . " q 30 t h a t p eo p le w i l l n o t be l i k e l y to use i t f o r c le a n in g , c lo th in g or clean in g a r t i c l e s which might be s ta in e d by i t ? 0018^ ---- Well., we hope n o t. 30 x6 Dr Leake \ V oA q The d^e would e f f e c t u a l l y p r o h ib it i t from b ein g used to any e x te n t? ---- To any g r e a t e x te n t. 0, P robably th e la d y who used, i t f o r c le a n in g f lo o r ? got in to s e rio u s tr o u b le f o r s ta in in g th e f lo o r s ? ---- Ho doubt. S i r Wia w il l COX: Thank you. 3 i r ROBERT ROBERT3OH: There i s one p o in t or, the p roposed : reg u la tio n s fo r motor garages th a t you suggested: th is d eals w ith v e n tila tio n and general cleanliness., except one phrase where i t say s: "and n o t f o r clean in g and o th e r p u rp o ses* . . I suppose you f e l t t h a t a lth o u g h th e r e was no d e f i n i t e evidence a g a in s t i t , i t would be a d v isa b le to ta k e c e rta in p r e c a u t i o n s ? ---- Y es. --:------------------ - -- -- ------- --------- ------ . : J u s t as was done in reg ard to the r e g u la tio n s which j u s t . p recede i t , to which- S ir fl'eorge Buchanan c a lle d a t t e n t i o n . Q, Yes. But my o nly o th e r p o in t i s t h i s : I do n o t know w hether you have a lre a d y answered i t in what you have to ld u s , when ` you were saying you were out fo r the broad e ffe c ts and n o t fo r p a rtic u la r experim ents. nat I want to ask about Is as to vrtiether any undecompoeea lead te tr a e th y l is found in th e ex h au st o r is found in th e crank case o i l of an engine. ... . t h a t i s b ein g d ism an tled ? ---- i do not know of any such experim ents. ; wA ' -(* Dr BRIDGE: I s pure le a d t e t r a e th y l allow ed to be so ld f r e e l y / in A m e ric a ? ---- Ho, i t i s n o t: i t i s n o t sold f r e e ly b u t th e re \ is. no d e f in ite le g a l p ro h ib itio n on th a t m a tte r. q You have no l i s t of poiso n s in America li k e we have in England where you have to sig n a book when you p u rch ase them? - -- That would be la r g e ly su b je c t to th e d if f e r e n t Q. P ro danj.y ni;a xacy u . u n u;~wu xi< j . r exea.sii.at, u u 'jla - gox m v ) s e rio u s tr o u b le f o r s ta in in g tire f l o o r s ? ---- No doubt. S i r Wm w il l COX: Thank you. - 3 i r ROBERT R0BERT30N: There i s on? p o in t on the proposed reg u latio n s fo r motor garages th a t you suggested: th is deals w ith v e n tila tio n and general c le a n lin e ss, except one phrase . ; where i t says: "and n o t f o r clean in g and o th e r p u rp o ses". ' I suppose you f e l t t h a t a lth o u g h th e re was no d e f i n i t e evidence a g a in st i t , i t would be ad v isab le to ta le c e rta in p r e c a u tio n s ? '---- Y es. --:------------------------------- -------------- --- -- . y J u s t as was done in reg ard to th e r e g u la tio n s which j u s t v! ^ . precede i t , to which S ir S'eorge Buchanan c a lle d a t t e n t i o n . \ Q, Yee. But my o n ly o th e r p o in t i s t h i s : I do n o t know w hether . vou have a lre a d y answered i t in what you have to ld u s , when you were saying you were out fo r the broad e ffe c ts and n o t f o r p a r t i c u l a r e x p e rim e n ts. Wna t I w ant to ask about i s as to w hether any undeco&poeed lead te tra . e th y l is found in the exhaust o r is found in the crank case o il of an engine t h a t i s b e in g d ism an tled ? ---- I do not know of any such experim ents. . Dr BRIDGE: I s pure le a d t e t r a e th y l allow ed to be s o ld f r e e l y In America? ---- No, i t i s n o t: i t is n o t sold f r e e ly b u t th e re is. no d e f in ite le g a l p r o h ib itio n on th a t m a tte r. *i'-""-v tOi " 0, You have no l i s t o f poiso n s in America l i k e we have in England where you have to sig n a book when you p u rch ase ' . th e m ? ---- That would be la r g e ly s u b je c t to th e d i f f e r e n t S ta te s, except the ^ l ^ ) Q which i s a F e d e ra l Ac q. Would le a d t e t r a e th y l be in i t ? ------No, t h a t is n o t in i t . There, a re numerous o th e r p o iso n s made a t chem ical p la c e s which are p r a c tic a lly dangerous. Dr BRIDGE: Thank you. Dr Leahe PROFESSOR DIXON: I suppose tlie only tr o u b le ab o u t le a d ie t h a t - it igt c u m u la tiv e ? ---- That i s what we have been afr& itl o f . Q, I f i t were n o t cu m u lativ e, th e re would he no d i f f i c u l t y of - any h i n d ? ---- That i s so . o, Could vou j u s t t e l l us what you mean by c u m u la tiv e ? ---- -Thai : -i? in s te a d of an e f f e c t a p p e arin g soon a f t e r th e in g e s tio n o r ay yy'l a b s o rp tio n of the p o iso n , th e e f f e c t i s , as one may sa y , -d ` s u b - c li n ic a l: i t is n o t a p p a re n t P u t ip produced a f t e r long y; ex p o su re, o r p ro lo n g ed 4b&ajaa4&4*ri o n ly ; and we th in h , In :y '' regard to- le a d p a r tic u la r ly , of co u rse, th a t i t is a c tu a lly accum ulating in the body. r q Would t h i s be a good d e f i n i t i o n : A cu m u lativ e p o iso n is one . in whicp the rate of absorption is .g re a te r than the ---- 1 th in h so: p ro v id ed th e e f f e c t were due to the presen ce of th e poison in th e organism and notyto sim ply ..the: - mode of e n try , or the s p e c ific a c tio n . I t might t h e o r e t i c a l l y be s tb r e d in such a way as to be f r e e from any chance of g iv in g harm th e r e a f te r , even i f i t were a la rg e amount. q In regard to th ese garage w orkers, in your answers today you have to ld us th a t the le a d in the fece s is only an index . . r e a l l y to th e f a c t th a t the man i e talcing l e a d ? ---- Thqt I s all 0. Where does he g et h ie le a d f r o m ? ---- The g arag e w orker? " q Y e s . ---- ws should l i k e to icnow. We have h in te d a t v a r io u s th in g s : w hether i t i s th e le a d p a in t on the c a rs oi? th e le a d from the ty r e s . .q Does n o t th e d u et of th e g arage c o n ta in l e a d ? ---- The d u et of the garage contains considerable lead. ft,-Would n o t th a t be easy to in d ic a te ? .Oh,yea:.- b u t I cannot: v, n i were n o t cum uxative, th e re would os no d i f f i c u l t y of any K in d ? ---- That i s so . . ;jy o. Could vou j u s t t e l l u? what you mean, by " c u m u la tiv e ? ---- That; in stead of an e ffe c t appearing soon a f te r th e in g e stio n or a b s o rp tio n of the p o iso n , th e e f f e c t i s , as one may sa y , "I - S' s u b -c lin ic a l: i t is not apparepj; but ip produced a f te r long t | ex p o su re, o r pro lo n g ed ofetfuaM4*<yn o n ly ; and we th in k , in y regard to lead p a rtic u la rly , of course, th a t if is a c tu ally y accum ulating in the body. y''h 0 Would t h i s be a good d e f i n i t i o n : A cum u lativ e p o iso n i s one y | v. . y'| in whic the r a t e ` of absorption i s .g reater than the ---- I th in k so: p ro v id ed th e e f f e c t were due to -o i the p rese n ce of th e p o iso n in th e organ.!am and n o ^to sim ply oi ..the: 'm ode of e n try , or the s p e c ific a c tio n , i t might y t h e o r e t i c a l l y be s to re d in such a way as to be f r e e from any (' chance of g iv in g harm th e r e a f te r , even i f i t were a la rg e 1 amount. 0. In reg ard to th e s e garage w o rk e rs, in y o u r answ ers today you have to ld us th a t the le ad in the feces Is only an index r e a l l y to th e f a c t t h a t th e man i s ta k in g l e a d ? ---- Thqt i s a n m- a '.%iere does he g e t h is le a d f r o m ? ---- The g arag e w orker? Q, Y e s . ----- V/Q should l i k e to know. We have h in te d a t v a r io u s , ;- th in g s : w hether i t i s th e le a d p a i n t on th e c a rs ofc th e le a d from the t y r e s . '. .0, Does n o t th e d u st of th e g arage c o n ta in l e a d ? ---- The d u et of the .garage contains considerable le ad . y :>* Q. Would n o t t h a t be easy to i n d i c a t e ? ---- Oh y e s ; b u t i cannot d ecid e as to where th a t d u st earns i r o n . Q. I se e . Supposing i t was. a d u sty garage and tn e man. was ab so rb in g th e le a d , how would he absorb i t ? ---- ?/e th in k th e im portant th in g to lead is in h alatio n . Q, J u s t what do you mean by Hin h a la t io n " ? ---- As to i t s f u r t h e r r Dr-LeaKe x8 / V ds .V q. Do you mean th ro u g h th e lu rg s ? ---- Whether i t is tr,rough th e upper r e s p ir a t o r y tracic o r th e lu n g e I am n o t p re p a re d to say; Put th a t i t gate in a c tu sllv through the a ir. o. But th e re have been sane experim ent? w ith dusts and le a d d u st . d oth in America and Germany, and they show t h a t i f you in h a le d u e t, 72 p er cent goes th ro u g h th e a lim e n ta ry c a n a l ? ---- Yes.j . " - q And o n ly 12 p e - r -cent through th e l u n g e ? ---- i t m ight he th a t, you would have a t le a s t th ree ro u te s: the alim en tary can al,, : the lunge and the upper re sp ira to ry tra d e . q supposing you g e t p eo p le Wno s u f f e r from c h ro n ic le a d '"*fi /! po iso n in g and th a t th e source of le a d hag Peer. stopped :, d com pletely, and then you examine th ese p eo p le' s fece s and d urine a fo rtn ig h t a fte r - a fte r a il lead ingestion has stopped - do you Know what th e p ro p o rtio n of le a d in th e . . fe c e s and u r in e would P e ? ---- I should thinK i t would va ry g re a tly in d if f e r e n t in d iv id u a ls , 'with, t h e i r h a P its and d iet., and so f o rth ; Put le a d would continue to Pe e x c re te d . d; q Yes; Put in what amounts - Py th e two w a y s ? ---- Presum ably more Py the Kidneys than Py th e Poweis, ' q. W ell, th e y a re s a id to Pe more o r l e s s e q u a l, you Know; .d. ' I th o u g h t p erh ap s t h a t was a reaso n why you ad o p t th e f e c a l method^ Pecause th e u r in e s to p s e x tru d in g a l to g e t h e r p e r io d ic a ll y , and th e n goes- on. I t is i r r e g u l a r , or is s a id to P e ? ---- Yes. ^ q I d id n o t Know w hether you had done experim ents showing th a t f a c t ? ---- I have n o t. d Q. But you agree w ith u s , do n o t you, t h a t f e c a l le a d i s n o t any c rite rio rM Y e a liy o f an y th in g ex cep t t h a t th e man i s  p, But th e re have been gone experim ent? w ith du&ts and le a d duet both in America and Germany, and they show th a t' i f you in h a l d u e t, ?2 p er cen t goeg th ro u g h th e a lim e n ta ry c a n a l? ---- Yes 0, And only 12 pe r cent through th e l u n g e ? ---- I t m ight be th a you would have a t le a s t th ree ro u te ? : the alim en tary canal,;, the lungs and th e upper re sp ira to ry tra d e , p supposing you g e t p e o p le tic s u f f e r from c h ro n ic le a d poisoning and th a t the source of lead has been stopped com pletely, and then you examine th ese people>g fe c e s and urine a fo rtn ig h t a fte r - a fte r a il lead ingestion has stopped - do you Know what th e p ro p o rtio n of le a d in th e - fe c e s and u r in e would b e ? ---- I sh o u ld t h i r d i t would vary g reatly in d iffe re n t in d iv id u als, with th e ir h ab its and d ie t and so f o r th ; but le a d would continue to be e x c re te d . p Yes; b u t in what amounts - by th e two 'w a y s ? ---- Presum ably more by the kidneys than by th e bow els, p W eil, they a re sa id to be more o r le s s e q u a l, you know; I th o u g h t p erh ap s t h a t was a. reaso n why you adopt th e f e c a l method because the u rin e sto p s ex tru d in g a lto g e th e r p e r io d ic a lly , and th en goes- on. I t is i r r e g u l a r , or i? ' s a id to b e ? ---- Yes. p 1 d id n o t know w hether you had done ex p erim en ts showing th a t f a c t ? ---- I have n o t . " p But you agree w ith u s , do not you, th a t f e c a l lead i s n o t r any c r i t e r i o A i r e a l i y o f a n y th in g ex cep t th a t th e man i s . ta k in g le a d through th e mouth? ---- That is a l l . Q, Have you any id e a , supposing you a d m in iste re d to a mar., sa y , a t h i r d o f a gram of le a d a c e ta te , how much of t h a t le a d , would be a b s o r b e d ? ---- BO, I have n o t. p I t would be a v ery sm all amount? __ Vo c 'g .. 33 HE 001822,5 34 Dr Leaxe /i l V /1 q This ac ts on the c e n tra l nervous system. ' X fe e l sure th a t I agree w ith everything you said --th a t in acu te lead poisoning from th e a c e ta te you g et a stim u lan t a c tio n on th e c e n tra l nervous system e n tire ly d iffe re n t from anything th a t i s Known w ith in o rg a n ic l e a d ? ---- Yes, ,, q. Do you remember th o s e c a se s o f th e fo u r men which were re p o rte d i n th e Jo u rn a l o f________________ ? -- Yes. Q The fo u r men who d ied from a c u te e th y l t e t r a le a d poisoning? -- Yes. a Two o f them d ie d quicK ly ana two a f t e r a month, o r som ething liK e t h a t ? ---- Yes. a The two who d ied quicK ly had v o l a t i l e l a i d in th e b r a in , and th e two who d ie d l a t e r had none. That i s your view a s to th a t? I thinX t h i s b e a rs on th e s u b je c t that* I am asKing a b o u t , ---- I presume th a t the v o la tile lead - presum ably-lead te tr a eth y l, in case th a t was th e poison- does n o t stay in th e system and does not s ta y in th e b r a in b u t i s changed ------- Q I s o x id is e d ? ---- Yes. Q Then you g e t o rd in a ry le a d ? ---- Then you g e t o rd in a ry le a d . Q Do you thinX i t l i x e l y , i f you d id absorb; le a d t e t r a e th y l in th e minute q u a n titie s which a re th e only q u a n titie s we can ab so rb in . p r a c t ic e - a c c id e n ta lly - t h a t th e su b sta n c e would rem ain u n o x id ise d ? ---- I t c e r ta in ly does not seem so. You can n o t d e te c t i t in th e body a f t e r i t h a s been --th a t in acu te lead poisoning from th e a c e ta te you g et a stim u lan t a c tio n on th e c e n tra l nervous system e n tire ly d iffe re n t from anything that; is Known w ith in o rg a n ic l e a d ? ---- Yes, 0. no you remember tho se ca ses o f th e fo u r men which were re p o rte d i n th e Jo u rn a l o f________________ ? -- Yes, Q The fo u r men who d ie d from a c u te e th y l t e t r a le a d poisoning? -- Yes, Q Two o f them d ie d qu icK ly and two a f t e r a month, o r som ething liK e t h a t ? ---- Yes. q The two who d ie d quicK ly had v o l a t i l e le a d i n th e 'a b r a in , and th e two who d ied l a t e r had none, What i s your view a s to th a t ? I thinK t h i s b e a rs on th e s u b je c t t h a t I am asKing a b o u t , ---- I presume th a t th e v o la tile lead - presumably lead t e t r a e th y l, in case th a t was th e poison- does n o t stay in th e system and does not s ta y in th e b r a in b u t i s changed ------- Q I s o x id is e d ? ---- Yes, Q Then you g e t o rd in a ry le a d ? ---- Then you g e t o rd in a ry le a d , q Do you. thinK i t liK e ly , i f you d id absorbs le a d t e t r a e th y l in th e minute q u a n titie s which a re th e only q u a n titie s . : we can ab so rb i n . p r a c t i c e - a c c id e n ta lly - t h a t th e su b stan ce would rem ain u n o x id ise d ? ---- I t c e r t a in ly ; do63 n o t seem so . . Q You can n o t d e te c t i t in th e body a f t e r i t h aa been ab so rb ed , i n th o se c ir c u m s ta n c e s ? ---- Ho, you ca n n o t, q s ir W illiam W illccx suggested to you th a t chronic lead te tr a ethyl poisoning - very small q u a n titie s ;5 absorbed over a prolonged period - might a f f e c t th e 34 C2 27 V . - r . Dr Leaxe c e n tr a l nervous system in some c u rio u s and u n u su al way, and tie gave o th e r exam ples. Do not you th in x yau have had enough tim e now in th e United SBates to have exploited any such p o s s ib le a c c id e n ts ? ---- One would say p o ssibly not beyond reasonable doubt; but beyond much d o u b t. The p o s itio n in re g a rd to n h is i s somewhat d if f e r e n t from th a t in reg ard to a e ro p la n e dope and some such th in g s as t h a t : th e whole p o p u latio n is p re tty w ell warned, as fa r as th e H ealth O fficers are concerned, to looX o u t f o r anything* and v a rio u s unusual th in g s a re shown sometimes, Q I t has been su g**g e's>ted to us t h a t .America i s perhaps not in such an advantageous p o sitio n as th e U nited Kingdom f o r in v e s tig a tin g th e s e ca ses o f lead poisoning, which occur haphazardly. ---- I t 'i s tr u e t h a t in reg ard to i n d u s t r i a l c o n tro l and in d u s tr ia l m edicine such c o n tro l i s not as centred o r as uniform o r as thorough throughout th e country in th e United S tates as i n th e U nited Kingdom, b u t a s re g a rd s o th e r c a se s o f i l l n e s s w hich may come on^and be unusual, I believe th a t the difference is n o t very rnarKed and m ight be one way as w e ll as the other. c e n tr a l nervous system" in some c u rio u s and u n u su a l way, and he gave o th e r exam ples. Do not you thinK yau have had enough tim e now in th e United SBates to have exploited any such p o s s ib le a c c id e n ts ? -- One would say p ossibly not beyond reasonable doubt; but beyond much d o u b t. The p o s itio n i n re g a rd to t h i s i s somewhat d if f e r e n t from th a t in re g a rd to a e ro p la n e dope and some such th in g s as t h a t ; th e whole p o p ulation is p re tty w e ll warned, as fa r as the H ealth O fficers are ^ concerned, to looK out f o r an y th in g ; and v ario u s unusual th in g s a re shown sometimes, Q i t "has been su g g ested to us t h a t .America i s perhaps non in such an advantageous p o s itio n as th e U nited Kingdom f o r in v e s tig a tin g th e s e ca ses of lead poisoning, which occur haphazardly, ---- I t 'i s tr u e t h a t in re g a rd to i n d u s t r i a l c o n tro l and in d u s tr ia l m edicine such c o n tro l i s not as centred o r as uniform o r as thorough throughout th e country in th e United s ta te s as i n th e U nited Kingdom, b u t as re g a rd s o th e r c a se s o f i l l n e s s w hich may come on; and be ' unusual, I believe th a t the d ifferen ce is n o t very marked and m ight be one way as w e ll as the other. K5 - 0018229 35 Dr Leake, Mr P IS: Dr L eake, i t has been s a id t h a t th e s p e c i f i c e f f e c t o f te tr a e th y l lead on the cen tra l nervous system i s a th in g t h a t w ould n o t. show up a t a l l i n experim en ts on anim als, Although you y o u r se lf have not done any experim ents on a n im a ls, would you say th a t tia t i s so: th a t the experim ents on anim als th at have been done are q u it e v a l u e l e s s -- hears been and a lw a y s w ould be q u it e v a l u e l e s s a s i n d ic a t in g any p o s s i b l e e f f e c t on t h e human c e n t r a l n erv o u s s y s t e m ? ----- I do n o t t h in k th e y can be c o n sid e r e d a s q u it e v a l u e l e s s , bu t what we w ould be a f r a id o f and what would be th e h a r d e st to d e te c t would be th e su b je c tiv e symptoms, which we could n ot g e t , o f co u rse, in a n im a ls , And n a t u r a lly th e symptoms m ig h t be d i f f e r e n t in one sp e c ie s from th ose o f anotherj but th e anim al experim ents would c e r ta in ly g iv e a v e r y good id e^ b f what would be ex p ected in th e human, - Q Even symptoms o f a 'n e r v o u s type? Even symptoms o f a nervous type. Dr LAUDER: I have no q u e s t io n s , than k you . S ir CHARLES MARTIN": Dr L eake, you t o ld th e Chairman th a t your S ervice has been unable to discover in sta n ces o f ' lea d p oison in g from th e u se o f tretra p e tr o l con tain in g one part in 1300 o f lead te tr a eth y lj but i t has been su g g ested to t h i s Committee by an oth er w itn e s s th a t c a se s have r e a lly occurred and th a t they have been hushed up \ aP ) and compensated by presumably im portant in t e r e s t s concerned Do you th in k t h a t t h a t h a s been the ca se? ---- That co u ld h ard ly be th e case w ith th e so r t o f in ju r ie s fo r w hich we are lo o k in g : th a t i s in th e g en e ra l p u b lic . They m ight th in g th a t would n o t show up a t a l l i n experim en ts on anim als. Although you y o u r se lf have not done any experim ents on a n im a ls, would you say th a t tia t i s so; th a t th e experim ents on anim als th at have been done are q u ite v a lu e le s s -- have been and alw ays would be q u ite v a l u e l e s s a s i n d ic a t in g any p o s s i b l e e f f e c t on t h e human ^ c e n t r a l n erv o u s system ? -- I do n o t t h i n * th e y can be c o n sid e r e d a s q u it e v a l u e l e s s , bu t what we w ould be a f r a i d o f and what would be th e h a r d e st to d e te c t would be th e su b je c tiv e symptoms, which we could n o t g e t , o f co u rse, in a n im a ls , And n a t u r a l l y th e symptoms m igh t be d i f f e r e n t V in one sp e c ie s from th ose o f another; but th e anim al exp erim en ts would c e r t a i n l y g iv e a v e r y good t& eajof what would be ex p ected in th e human. Q Sven symptoms o f a n ervou s type? - Sven symptoms o f a nervous type* Dr LAUDER: I have no q u e s t io n s , thanX y o u . .1 . S ir CHARLES MARTIH; Dr LeaXe, you t o l d th e Chairman th a t y o u r ServtiLce h a s been u n ab le to d is c o v e r in s t a n c e s o f lead p oison in g from th e use o f iactra p e tr o l con tain in g m' one part in 1300 o f lead te tr a eth y l; but i t has been su g g ested to t h i s Committee by an oth er w itn e s s th a t c a se s have r e a lly occurred and th a t they have been hushed up and compensated by presumably im portant in t e r e s t s concerned. Do y o u th in X t h a t t h a t h a s been the case? ---- That co u ld h ard ly be th e case w ith th e so r t o f in ju r ie s fo r w hich we are looX in g: th a t i s in th e g e n e r a l p u b lic . They m ight :i c o n c e iv a b ly o c c u r i n an i n d i v i d u a l p la n t w here th e p rod u ct was b e in g made* K W 0018231 36 Dr leak s. Q, No, n o , I mean i n th e g a r a g es? ----- I n th e g a r a g e s i n g e n e r a l you mean? . Q Y e s ? -----Those p e o p le a r e n o t s u b j e c t to such c o n t r o l by th e in te r e s ts w h o s e product i s a t stak e, so th at i t cauld be hushed u p . The u s e i s q u it e g e n e r a l i n th e U n ite d S t a t e s and th ere are a l l s o r ts o f garages and p riv a te car d r iv er s as w e l l who a r e u s in g i t . I t i s in c o n c e iv a b le , i f a c o n sid e r a b le number were occurring^ th a t th a t would accou n t fo r our not h earin g o f them, Q I s in d u s tr ia l le a d p oison in g compensat&ble by law in th e U n ite d S t a t e s ? ----- I n t h e I n d u s t r i a l S t a t e s , Q I mean as man w ork in g i n an a ccu m u la to r f a c t o r y f o r in sta n ce g e ts lea d poisoning? -- In the S ta te s which have su ch a la w . Of c o u r s e , our S t a t e s v a r y : some S t a t e s have no compensation law , Q Supposing in such a 'S ta te a garage worker su ffe r e d from in c ip ie n t le a d poison in g from the use o f e th y l p e tr o l, w ould he have a c a s e a g a in s t h i s e m p lo y e r s ? -----I t m ig h t - >' be so in te r p r e te d by th e C ourts, I th in k th a t i s so , Q I have one other q u estion to ask you: that i s that considering the to x ic character o f lead te tr a eth y l, w ith which you were fa m ilia r when you sta r ted your ' in v e s tig a tio n s , ifere you not su rp rised to fin d that you could g e t no ev id en ce to c o n v ic t i t when u sed as e t h v l p e t r o l ? -----Y es, SIR CHARLES MARTINI Thank y o u . CHAIRMAN: Thank y o u v e r y much, Dr L eake. q Yea? - -- Those p e o p le a r e n o t s u b j e c t to such c o n t r o l by th e in terests-; whose product I s a t sta k e, so th at i t cauld be hushed up. The u s e i s q u it e g e n e r a l i n th e U n ite d S t a t e s and th ere are a l l so r ts o f garages and p riv a te car d riv ers as w e l l who a r e u s in g i t . I t i s in c o n c e iv a b le , i f a c o n s id e r a b l number were o c c u r r in g }th a t th a t would accou n t fo r our not h earin g o f them, q I s in d u s tr ia l lea d p oison in g com pensatable by law in th e U n ite d S t a t e s ? ----- I n th e I n d u s t r i a l S t a t e s , q I mean as man w ork in g i n an a ccu m u la to r f a c t o r y f o r in stan ce g e ts lead poisoning? -- In the S ta te s which have su ch a la w . Of c o u r s e , our S t a t e s v a r y ; some S t a t e s hare no compensation law , q Supposing in such a S ta te a garage worker su ffe r e d from i n c i p i e n t le a d p o is o n in g from -fete u se o f e t h y l p e t r o l , w ould he have a c a s e a g a in s t h i s e m p lo y e r s ? -----i t m ig h t be so in te r p r e te d by th e C ourts, I th in k th a t i s so . t> q I have one other q u estion to ask you; th at i s th at considering the to x ic character o f lead te tr a eth y l, w ith which you were fa m ilia r when you. sta r te d your +* i n v e s t i g a t i o n s , ygere you n o t s u r p r is e d to f in d th a t you cou ld g e t no e v id en ce to c o n v ic t i t when u sed as e t h y l p e t r o l ? ----- Y es. SIR CHARLES MARTIN; Thank y o u , CHAIRMAN; Thank y o u v e r y much, Dr L eake. . ( The f i t n e s s w ithd rew ). h>e 0 0 1 8 2 3 3 37 Dr GRAHAM EDGAR r e c a ll e d CHAIRMAH: Dr E dgar, we have ask ed you t o come t h i s m orning because th e r e a re one or two q u e s tio n s a r is in g out o f some f u r t h e r e v id e n c e t h a t we have had b e a r in g on t h e e v id e n c e w hich you gave us.' Some o f u s th o u g h t th a t we m ight put a very few q u estio n s to you in regard to th e se p o in ts, i l r s t o f a l l , i t was objected before us th a t th e re was something s in is t e r in what you have done in th e U nited S ta tes in c a llin g th is m aterial te tr a eth yl lead instead o f le a d t e t r a e t h y l , I do n o t now w h eth er th e r e i s a n y th in i i n t h a t ? -----As a m a tte r o f f a c t , I do nou now th e o f f i c i a l nom enclature o f the American Chemical S o c ie ty , but lo o in g up th e r e fe r e n c e s in the lit e r a t u r e , I think: th a t in n in e-ten th s o f the tech n ica l journals te tr a eth y l lead is used rath er than lea d t e t r a e th y l. As a m atter o f f a c t i t i s customary in th U nited S ta te s to refer to th e organic compounds more fr e q u e n tly by p u ttin g th e m etal la s t; OJ_Xx/VvW. v*\ fo r in s ta n c e , th ey c a ll i t d i- e t h y l chibarid ra th er than c i a ^ e d i - e t h y l and from ay own e x p e r ie n c e in th e m a tter Xnhanre a lw a y s nown i t a s t e t r a e t h y l l e a d , b u t I can h a r d ly conceive o f there being anything p a r tic u la r ly s in is te r in - c a llin g i t tetra eth yl lead , q, You d id n o t change i t round i n o rd er t o o b scu re th e f a c t th a t you w ere u s in g any p a r t i c u la r m a t e r i a l ? ----- I cannot s e e t h a t a t a l l . I t seem s to me t h a t le a d t e t r a e t h y l i s th e same a s t e t r a e t h y l le a d , Q Then i t i s s a id t h a t th e name e t h y l d o e s n o t c o n ta in th e _ word le a d a t a l l ? ----- The term e th y l.,---, we pronounce i t because th e r e a re one or two q u e stio n s a s is in g out o f some f u r t h e r e v id e n c e t h a t we have had b e a r in g on t h e e v id e n c e y w hich you g a v e us.' Some o f u s th o u g h t th a t we m ight put a very few q u estio n s to you in regard to th e se p o in ts, i l r s t o f a l l , i t was ob jected before us th a t th e r e was something s in is t e r in what you have done in th e U nited S ta tes in c a llin g th is m aterial te tr a eth y l lead instead o f le a d t e t r a e t h y l , I do n o t Know w h eth er t h e r e i s a n y th in i n t h a t ? ----- As a m a tte r o f f a c t , I do n o know th e o f f i c i a l nom enclature o f th e American Chemical S o c ie ty , but lo o k in g up the referen ces in the lite r a tu r e , I th in k th at in n in e-ten th s o f the tech n ica l journals te tr a eth y l lead is used rath er than lea d t e t r a e th y l. As a m atter o f f a c t i t i s customary in th e U nited S ta te s to r efer to th e organic compounds more f r e q u e n t ly by p u t t in g t h e o.4?ga*S?c m e ta l l a s t : f o r i n s t a n c e , th e y c a l l i t d i - e t h y l ch3a*sei& r a th e r th a n ci^bfeEide d i - e t h y l : and from my own e x p e r ie n c e in th e m a tter I:^have alw ays known i t a s t e t r a e th y l le a d , but I can h a r d ly conceive o f there being anything p a r tic u la r ly s in is t e r in c a llin g i t te tr a e th y l lead., ' Q You d id n o t change i t round i n o rd er t o o b scu re th e f a c t , th a t you w ere u s in g an y p a r t ic u la r m a t e r i a l ? -----I can n ot : -,j s e e t h a t a t a l l . I t seem s to me t h a t le a d t e t r a e t h y l i s th e same a s t e t r a e t h y l le a d , ; Q Then i t i s s a id t h a t th e name e t h y l d o es n o t c o n ta in th e word le a d a t a l l ? ------ ' The term e t h y l -- we pronounce i t ^ e th e l -- was adopted as a r e g iste r e d trad e m ari fo r the brand o f a n ti-k n o c k compound u sed by th e G a so lin e C o rp o ra tio n As a m a tter o f f a c t i n m ost c a s e s , I b e lie v e , th e r e i s no n e c e s s a r y r e l a t i o n a t a l l b etw een th e c h e m is tr y o f th e 'v"-` ' compound and t h e *jaame.'; o f th e m a t e r ia l u sed f o r tr a d e ' ?4. \ ,U\ v ,J. \ Dr Edgar, p u r p o se s. You s e e t h a t c o n t in u a lly ; t h a t v a r io u s names axe ad op ted i n th e s a l e o f m a t e r i a ls , and I do n o t th in k th e r e i s any p a r tic u la r reason why we should even put th e e th y l i n , I was n o t a member o f th e C o r p o r a tio n a t the tim e th e wording was adop ted , but I im agine th a t someone s e le c te d i t as being perhaps th e most euphonious word o f the th ree: t e t r a e th y l le a d . C e r ta in ly th e re has been no attem p t to conceal th e fa ct tha$ eth y l g a so lin e contains te tr a e th y l le a d , both in th e ad vertisem en t and in th e d e s c r ip tiv e c ir c u la r s which the C orporation have g iv en v e ry wide c i r c u l a t i o n JC f u l l ^ p ^ eu aation h as b e e n g iv e n o f th e fu e l and o f t e t r a e th y l, T h erefo re X cannot see any s ig n ific a n c e in the u se o f the word e th y l, q Then th e re i s q u ite a sm a ll th in g , I th in k you f e e l i t i s t h e most u s u a l way t o r e f e r to th e compound as so many p a r t s by' volum e r a th e r th a n by w e i g h t ? ----- As a m a tte r o f f a c t i n th e e a r l y 'days e t h y l f l u i d was added to p e t r o l i n a sm all d ev ice long sin ce abandoned, ch a c e r ta in volume was measured ou t fo r every given volume o f g a s o lin e , and c o n s e q u e n tly th e norm al w ay o f r e f e r r in g t o i t w a sr $E3Sf on a volum e b a s i s . The volum e b a s i s i s more commonly employed^than the w eigh t b a s is . In th e case o f benzole you speak o f 20 per cent benzole or 40 per cent b en zo le. That i s alw ays pen cen t by volume and n o t by w eig h t, i t would n o t be th e same p ercen ta g e by w e ig h t. There i s an oth er le g itim a te reason why volume sh ould alw ays be em ployed i n t h i s p a r t ic u la r c a s e . We sa y t h a t we u s e a maximum o f one p a r t i n 1300 by v o lu m e. That i s a th in g y o u can g e t e x a c tly * You ineasxire ^a. c e r t a i n volum e o f e t h y l n t a,ay par-oxcuxar r e a so n way we axiouxu even pu t xne etin y i i n . I was n o t a member o f th e C o rp o r a tio n a t the tim e th e wording was adop ted , but I im agine th a t someone s e le c t e d i t as being perhaps th e most euphonious word o f the th ree: t e t r a e th y l le a d . C e r ta in ly th e re has been no attem pt to conceal th e fa c t tha$ e th y l g a so lin e contains te tr a e th y l f lea d , both in th e ad vertisem en t and in th e d e sc r ip tiv e c ir c u la r s which the C orporation have g iv en v e ry w ide CU c ir c u la t io n ^ JC f u l l ^cpi^anation h as b e e n g iv e n o f th e fu e l and o f t e t r a e th y l. T h erefo re I cannot see any A sig n ifica n ce in the u se o f the w r d ethyl* Q, Then th e r e i s q u it e a s m a ll t h i n g . I t h in k you f e e l i t r i s t h e most u s u a l way t o r e f e r to th e compound as so many p a r ts by- volum e r a th e r than by w eigh t? - -- As a m a tter o f f a c t in the e a r ly days e th y l flu id was added to p e tr o l in a sm all d ev ice lon g sin ce abandoned, inwhich a c e r ta in volume was measured out fo r every given volume o f g a s o lin e , ti and c o n s e q u e n tly th e norm al w ay o f r e f e r r in g to i t w a s/'e3s&y on a volum e b a s i s . The volum e b a s i s i s more commonly employed^than the w eigh t b a s is . In th e case o f benzole you speak o f 20 p er-cen t benzole or 40 per cent benzole* That i s alw ays per cen t by volume and n o t by w eig h t. I t would n o t be t h e same p e r c e n ta g e by w e ig h t . There i s an oth er le g it im a t e reason why volum e should alw ays be em ployed i n t h i s p a r t ic u la r c a s e . We sa y t h a t we u s e a maximum o f on e p a r t i n 1300 by volu m e. That i s a th in g you can g e t e x a c t ly * You m easure a c e r t a in volum e o f e t h y l flu id .a n d a c e r t a in volume o f p e tro l* I f you d id i t by w eigh t th a t would vary in _av .oh, and i t would need a separate determ in a tio n jy~ Hi th e --f l u .ld .a nd--a - se parate d e te r m in a tio n - o $ t t e . Psettro ll* So I th in k th e r e i s e v e r y rea so n fo r r e fe r r in g to i t by volum e. ?, , . . . . . . . . . .. '. ^ .... .. .. Dr Edgar. Q, You u se tiie words "toy v o lu m e " ? ----- Q u ite , We have a lw a y s spoken o f i t a s by ivolum e. : q Some o b j e c t io n was ta k e n b e fo r e u s to th e method t h a t w a s ad op ted f o r o b t a in in g th e c o n t r o ls in some o f your e x p e r i m en ts. You c o l l e c t e d a l p t o f p eo p le a t random through. an employment agency? ----- I n th e e a r l i e s t o f th e fo u r ; in v e s tig a tio n s which were ca rried out, in t h is n a tte r , namely th e one th at was ca rried out by Dr Kehoe, m yself and o th ers -- the one ju st preceding the in v e stig a tio n o f the Surgeon ' G e n e r a li Committee -- th a t method o f s e le c t io n o f c o n tr o ls was wa sta r te d , and i t was a p e r fe c tly v a lid c r itic is m th ere th a t th e c o n tr o ls were not s t r i c t l y comparable w ith th e o th e r s. It must be remembered , however, that a t th a t tim e th e B th y l G a so lin e C orporation had no co n v en ien t way o f g e t t i n g c o n t r o ls e x a c t l y c o rr esp o n d in g to th e men i n ' q u e s t io n . You ca n n o t go to a man who i s empjUoyed lay a r i v a l brand o f g a s o lin e and sa y : "We w is h 20 o f yo u r ~ * employees to be put a t our d isp o sa l for in v e s tig a tio n ", . and we had no means o f g e t t in g t h e p a r t ic u la r men for th a t p u rp o se. T h e r e fo r e , we a d op ted what we th o u g h t \ was a f a i r l y reason ab le wav: we s e le c t e d them a t random ; from employment exch an ges, and laid them f i v e d o lla r s f o r \ ' th e p r iv ile g e o f exam ining them and exam ining t h e ir u rin e* So I do n o t th in k th a t th a t p a r tic u la r method o f s e le c tio n has any bearing on the p a rticu la r nature o f th e g ro u p . The im p ortan t c o n c lu s io n was t h a t none o f t h e ?i men w ere s u f f e r in g from le a d p o is o n in g , y e t p r a c t i c a l l y a l l th e e x c r e ta showed sm all q u a n titie s o f le a d ,, in Q, Seme o b j e c t io n was taicen b e fo r e u s t o th e method t h a t w as adopted fo r o b ta in in g th e c o n tr o ls in some o f your e x ^ e r i- m en ts. You c o l l e c t e d a l p t o f p eo p le a t random th ro u g h ; an employment agency? ----- I n th e e a r l i e s t o f th e fo u r in v e s tig a tio n s which were c a rried out, in t h i s m a tter, namely th e one th a t was ca rried out by Dr Kehoe, m y self and o th ers -- the one ju st preceding the in v e stig a tio n o f th e Surgeon V G eneral*s Committee -- th a t method o f s e le c t io n o f c o n tr o ls was t o ms s t a r t e d , and i t was a p e r f e c t l y v a l i d c r i t i c i s m th ere th a t th e c o n tr o ls were not s t r i c t l y comparable w ith th e others* It must be remembered , how ever, th at a t th a t tim e th e B th y l G a so lin e C orp oration had no co n v en ien t way o f ^ g e t t i n g c o n t r o ls e x a c t l y c o r r e sp o n d in g to th e men i n q u e s t io n . You can n ot go to a man who i s em ployed by a r i v a l brand o f g a s o l i n e and say: "We w is h 20 o f you r t employees to be put a t our d isp o sa l for in v e s tig a tio n ", and we had no means o f s g e t t i n g t h e p a r t ic u la r men fo r 4 t h a t p u rp ose. T h e r e fo r e , we ad o p ted what we th o u g h t was a f a i r l y reason ab le wav: we s e le c t e d them a t random . from employment exch anges, and laid them f i v e d o lla r s f o r th e p r iv ile g e o f exam ining them and exam ining t h e ir u r in e . So I dfco n o t th in i: th a t th a t p a r t ic u la r method o f s e le c tio n has any bearing on the p a rticu la r nature o f th e g ro u p . The im p ortan t c o n c lu s io n was t h a t none o f th e men w ere s u f f e r in g from le a d p o is o n in g , y e t p r a c t i c a l l y . . . . . . .".v a l l th e e x c r e ta showed sm all q u a n titie s o f le a d ,, i n both groupd. q, I thinjc y o u r a th e r w an ted to sa y som eth in g t o u s ab ou t what has been termed th e s p e c ific e ff e c t o f te tr a e th y l le a d o n t h e c e n t r a l n er v o u s s y s t e m ? ----- Y e s. That Hqa K* 0018239 40 r .H i 1r 1 Dr Sdgar. been m en tio n ed . As I s a id b e f o r e , X am n o t a p h y s i o l o g i s t and I have g rea t h e sita n c y in ex p ressin g an o p in io n in the presence o f s k ille d p h y s io lo g is ts ; but i t does seem to me t h a t w e a r e assum ing a s p e c i f i c e f f e c t o f t e t r a e th y l le a d , taXen in very sm all q u a n titie s , w hidi i s to sa y th e l e a s t , im p ro b a b le. And e v e n i n t h e c a s e o f a c u te p o iso n in g th e r e was some doubt a s to w hether th e r e was a tru e s p e c if ic e f f e c t o f t e t r a e th y l le a d . But assume t h a t th e r e i s a d i f f e r e n c e i n th e c a se o f a c u te .-- poisoning, I thinX i t i s rather u n liX ely th at th e sp e c ific e f f e c t should p e r sist in the v e r y m inute doses th at one could con ceivab ly g e t o f e th y l p e tr o l. C erta in ly one*s exp erien ce in oth er products would n ot bear th a t o u t, i n such a case a s prusdic a c id and c a r b o lic a c id -- w hich I thinX would be sa id to. have s p e c if ic e f f e c t i n la r g e c o n c e n tr a tio n s, but when taXen in m inute doses they are o x id ise d or oth erw ise tr e a te d , w ith ou t producing s p e c if ic e f f e c t s . Tetra e th y l lea d i s ,v e r y r e a d ily o x id is a b le su b sta n ce, and i t would be my own f e e l i n g t h a t th e .;p r o b a b ilit y i s t h a t taX en i n m in u te q u a n titie s th e body would convert i t in to . in o rg a n ic le a d compounds, so th a t you w ould n ot g e t a s p e c i f i c e f f e c t . So a lth o u g h i t i s n o t ca p a b le o f p roof, perhaps, I th in k th e assum ption th a t th ere are s p e c if ic e f f e c t s from m inute q u a n titie s o f t e t r a e th y l lea d i 3 more im probable than o th e r w ise . CU4 V p a.lJ.A U X i X i the presence o f s k ille d p h y s io lo g is ts ; but i t does seem to me t h a t w e a r e assum ing a s p e c i f i c e f f e c t o f t e t r a e th y l le a d , taken i n v e r y sm a ll q u a n t it ie s , which i s to . sa y th e le a s t s im probable* And e v e n i n t h e c a s e o f a c u te p o iso n in g th e r e was some doubt a s to w hether th e r e was a tru e s p e c ific e ff e c t o f te tr a e th y l lead* But-assume A t h a t th e r e i s a d i f f e r e n c e i n th e c a se o f a c u te ,-- poisoning, I think i t i s rather u n lik e ly that th e sp e c ific e f f e c t should p e r sist in th e v e r y m inute doses th at one could con ceivab ly g e t o f e th y l p etrol* C erta in ly one*s exp erien ce i n oth er products would n ot bear th a t is o u t . I n su ch a c a se a s p r u sd ic a c id and c a r b o lic a c id -- w hich I th in k would be sa id to have s p e c if ic e f f e c t in la r g e c o n c en tr a tio n s, but when taken in minute doses they are o x id ise d or oth erw ise tr e a te d , w ith ou t producing s p e c if ic e f f e c t s . Tetra e th y l lead a 'T is ^ v e r y r e a d il y o x id is a b le s u b s ta n c e , and i t w ould be my own f e e l i n g t h a t th e p r o b a b ilit y i s t h a t ta k en i n m inute q u a n titie s th e body would convert i t in to in o rg a n ic le a d compounds, so th at you w ould n o t g e t a s p e c i f i c e f f e c t * So a lth o u g h i t i s n o t c a p a b le o f proof, perhaps, I th in k th e assum ption th a t th ere are s p e c if ic e f f e c t s from m inute q u a n titie s o f t e t r a e th y l - . - ..-r7 le a d i s more im probable than o th erw ise. ' KE 0018241 , 41 Dr Edgar q One o f th e w itn e s s e s s a id t h a t t h i s Committee could n o t answer th e q u estio n s they have been asKed under tw enty y ears and p o s s ib ly not t h e n . ---- W ell, p r e d ic tio n s a s to what may happen in te n , tw enty o r f i f t y y e a rs a r e very easy to maKe and v ery d i f f i c u l t to prove o r d is p ro v e , p a r t i c u l a r l y w ith Nt J th e m a te ria l in q u e stio n . Obviously i t is im possible to , answer as to what w ill happen in a g re a t number o f y e a rs . . The same argum ents m ight be used f o r alm ost a n y th in g . . TaKe b e n z o l: we Know t h a t b en zo l i s p o iso n o u s; many p e o p le *. die from i t ,, and chronic poisoning has been produced, I t might e a s ily be argued th a t th e use of benzol in p e tro l v i n a c e r t a in g iv e n tim e would r e s u l t in u n iv e r s a l p o iso n in g . :. I do n o t thinK t h a t h as been th e c a se . I t seems to me t h a t . th e s u g g e s tio n t h a t t h i s , t h a t o r th e o th e r may happen i n any number o f y e a rs , u n le s s i t i s bacKed up by more d e f i n i t e evidence iman I have m yself heard, i s c-f l i t t l e v alu e: 40 o f co u rse i t i s easy to maKe. . ' Q Do you. thinK t h a t th e fo u r o r f iv e y e a r s 1 i n v e s t i g a t i o n t h a t h as taKen p la c e g iv e s no in d ic a tio n f o r th in k in g t h a t an y th in g s e rio u s i s going to happen i n f i f t e e n o r tw enty :;/ y e a r s ? -- - From what l i t t l e I Know of th e s u b je c t myself,- I c e r ta in ly f e e l t h a t i f th e r e i s no p ro g re ssiv e change i n % fiv e years, th e chances o f anything m easurable developing in te n o r f i f t e e n , o r any number' o f y e a rs , w i l l be . excessively sm all. Q I t is a matter, o f argument, > ' ' o f course. You have heard p erh ap s th e q u e s tio n s we p u t to Dr LeaKe t h i s morning a s to w hether th e s e g arag e worKers who have been s e le c te d f o r ; happen in t e n , tw enty o r f i f t y y e a rs a r e very easy to maKe and very d if f ic u lt to prove o r d isp ro v e, p a rtic u la rly w ith ' th e m a te ria l in q u e stio n . Obviously i t is ixapossihle to *" answer as to what w ill happen in a g re a t number o f y e a rs . ; The same argum ents m ight be used f o r alm ost a n y th in g . * TaKe b e n z o l: we Know t h a t b en zo l i s p o iso n o u s: many p e o p le / ' V die from i t , and chronic poisoning has been produced, .. . ; I t might e a s ily be argued th a t th e use of benzol in p e tro l - in a c e r t a in g iv e n tim e would r e s u l t in u n iv e r s a l p o iso n in g . ; I do n o t thinK t h a t has been th e ca3 e. I t seems to me t h a t f th e s u g g e s tio n t h a t t h i s , t h a t o r th e o th e r may happen i n ". any number o f y e a rs , u n le s s i t i s backed up by more d e f i n i t e evidence than I have m yself heard, is o f l i t t l e value: . ': o f co u rse i t i s easy to maKe. .... V-. Q Do you th in 's t h a t th e fo u r o r f iv e y e a r s 1 i n v e s t i g a t i o n t h a t has taK en p la c e g iv e s no i n d ic a t io n f o r th in k in g t h a t anything serio u s is going to happen in f ifte e n o r twenty ' y e a r s ? ---- From what l i t t l e I Know a ' th e s u b je c t lays e l f , I c e r ta in ly f e e l t h a t i f th e r e i s no p ro g re ssiv e change in . f iv e y e a rs , th e chancres o f an y th in g m easurable developing in te n o r f i f t e e n , o r any number o f y e a rs, w i l l be . excessively sm all. ' '. . '' V q I t i s a m atter, o f argum ent, o f c o u rse . You have h eard _ p erh ap s th e q u e s tio n s we p u t to Dr LeaKe t h i s morning a s to ' w hether th e s e g arag e worKers who have been s e le c te d f o r experim ents have been s p e c ia lly warned so th a t th e experim ent , was in v a lid . Do you ag ree w ith Dr LeaKe t h a t th e s e in g iu , ;r w ere n o t s p e c ia lly c a r e f u l ? ---- Dr LeaKe has very much more e x p e rie n c e th a n I have, b u t I ;-aan speaK o f th e f i r s t - ,..... i n v e s tig a tio n t h a t was c a r r ie d o u t by Dr Kehoe and m y self: k e 001S243 42 Er Edgar c e r t a i n l y th e r e was no evidence in t h a t o f any p a r t i c u l a r c a re on th e p a r t o f any o f th e men. The p e t r o l was s p i l t o v er th e hands and over th e body, ana no p re c a u tio n s of a ry $ in d w e r e ta x e n : i n f a c t among th e s e worXers who worxed a t th e very s t a r t i t was very d i f f i c u l t to get them to ta x e any p re c a u tio n s because th e y had been w orxing a t i t f o r two y ears and they had not e lt any i l l e f f e c ts , and they sim ply would n o t b e lie v e you w&en you t o l d them th e y ought to be careful. Q One very im p o rtan t th in g I thinX i s : To what e x te n t t h i s finding o f lead in the excreta is a f a ir index o f whether th e re has been damage to th e person or n o t. Ehve you th o ught about t h a t q u e s tio n o r n o t ? ---- I have th o u g h t a g r e a t d e a l. I t i s a problem p ro b ab ly in c a p a b le o f a b s o lu te p ro o f. The argument i s f r e q u e n tly made t h a t a man has been s to r in g up very la rg e q u a n t itie s o f lead in th e body and n o t e x c re tin g i t You could! h a rd ly prove th a t- d i r e c t l y w ith o u t H illin g th e in d iv id u als and analysing th e ir bodies fo r lead . Q You could h a rd ly do t h a t i n t h i s c o u n try ; I do n o t Know w hat you could do i n America? -- so i t i s im p o ssib le t o g e t d ir e c t proof of th a t Kind,', but I thinX th a t an in te r p r e ta tio n o f th e d a ta - as" f a r as th ey go - w ould in d ic a te t h a t th e e x c re tio n o f lead i s a f a i r m easure, in any s t a t i s t i c a l g ro u p in g , o f th e s to r a g e o f le a d . You can g e t a t i t in two w ays: you -n g e t a t i t in an u n s a tis f a c to r y way by anim al ' \; ex p erim en tatio n : anim als have been K ille d and a n a ly se s made,, and th e re is c e rta in ly a rough c o rre la tio n between the excret o f lead and th e s to r a g e . You can g et i t by ex am ination o f o v e r ~CillG U.c4UU.o e m u v if v w iiiu -- e - * - ---- --- any T findw ere ta x e n : i n f a c t among th e s e w o rk ers who worked a t th e very s t a r t i t was very d i f f i c u l t to get them to ta x e any p re c a u tio n s decause th e y had te e n worising a t i t f o r two y ears and ttiey had not f f l t any i l l e f f e c ts , and they sim ply i would n o t "believe you you t o l d them they ought to be ;; ! careful. Q One very im p o rtan t th in g I thinK i s : To what e x te n t t h i s finding o f lead in the excreta is a f a ir index o f whether th e r e h as been damage to th e p erso n o r n o t. Hive you th o u g h t vj about th a t question or not? -- I have thought a g reat d e a l. % I t i s a problem p ro b ab ly in c a p a b le o f a b s o lu te p ro o f. The 1 argument i s f r e q u e n tly made t h a t a man has been s to r in g up very la rg e q u a n t itie s o f lead in th e body and n o t e x c re tin g i t . You ooulcd h a rd ly prove th a t- d i r e c t l y w ith o u t W illin g th e in d iv id u a ls and analysing th e ir bodies fo r le a d . Q You could h a rd ly do t h a t i n t h i s c o u n try ; I do n o t Know what $ you could do i n America? -- so i t i s im p o ssib le to g e t d ir e c t proof of th a t Kind, but I thinK th a t an in te r p r e ta tio n o f th e d a ta - a s f a r as th ey go - w ould in d ic a te t h a t th e ' ' e x c re tio n o f le a d i s a f a i r m easure, i n any s t a t i s t i c a l ; . g ro u p in g , o f th e s to r a g e o f le a d . You ca n g e t a t i t in two w ays: you n g e t a t i t in an u n s a its f a c to r y way by anim al ex p erim en tatio n : anim als have been K ille d and an a ly se s made, and th e re i s c e rta in ly a rough c o rre la tio n between th e ex creta o f le a d and th e s to r a g e . You can g et i t by ex am inatio n o f .... groups o f men who a re supposed to be s p e c i f i c a l l y s to r in g le a d : men who a r e worKing in le a d p la n ts , and o th e r men, who a r e exposed to s u f f i c i e n t le a d to 3 to re i t . i f you .... compare th e ir exposure w ith thei*r e x c re ta , presumably ; K 0018245 B* Edgar -t t h e i r e x c re ta i s Aa rough m easure o f t h e i r s to ra g e . So I th in k a re a s o n a b le i n t e r p r e t a t i o n o f t h a t would 'oe t'n a t th e e x c re ta i s t r u l y a m easure o f th e s to r a g e o f le a d , and th e f a c t t h a t th e s e men a r e n o t e x c re tin g more le a d now th a n th e y w ere two y e a rs ago - as i s a p p a re n tly th e case - shows th a t they are th erefo re not sto rin g lead. That is merely a q u estio n of in te rp re ta tio n , but I th in k i t a, is reasonable in te rp re ta tio n . k CHlElAi: P ro fe s s o r Dixon, i s th e r e an y th in g f u r t h e r you would lik e to ask? PROFESSOR DIXON: I w ould l i k e to m ention one th in g , Dr Edgar: th a t i s th a t your analogy suggesting th a t te tr a ethyl lead is oxidised is o f course co rrect, but the ' comment t h a t th e r e f o r e you cannot produce any e f f e c t on th e cen tral nervous system w ith sm all doses i s not analogous to o*oher th i n g s , Take h ydroxide o f e th y l and compare i t w ith lead e th y l: you would not say th a t one . - g l a s s of whisky \ had had no effect ' because it w ill n o t make a man drunk q u i c k l y ? ---- Not a t a n , Q That is p ra c tic a lly what you say about lead te tr a e th y l, i s not i t ? -- No.. I would li k e to go back to my own knowi^cr&e and ta k e th e case o f p r u s s ic a c id . q But t h a t i s n o t o x id is e d . I am ta k in g a n o th e r, w hich i s much c lo s e r a l l i e d . -- I s not p r u s s ic a c id oxidised in sm all doses to cyanic acid? In sm all doses is it--not oxidised to cyanic acid and excreted? I have ; read th a t somewhere, '' would be -chat th e e x c r e ta i s t r u ly a measure o f th e s t o r a g e o f le a d , and th e f a c t chat t d e s e men a r e n o t e x c r e t in g more le a d now th a n th e y w ere two y e a r s ago - as i s a p p a re n tly th e c a se - shows th a t they are th erefo re not sto r in g lead . That i s merely a q u estio n o f in te r p r e ta tio n , but I thinX i t CL is reasonable in terp reta tio n . CHAIRMAN: .P r o f e s s o r D ixon , i s t h e r e a n y th in g f u r t h e r you would lix e to asx? PROFESSOR DIXON: I w o u ld l i x e to m en tion one t h in g , Dr Edgar: th a t i s th a t your analogy su ggestin g th a t te tr a eth yl lead i s oxid ised i s o f course correct, but the comment t h a t t h e r e f o r e you cannot produce any e f f e c t on th e central nervous system w ith sm all doses i s not a n a lo g o u s to o th e r th in g s * TaXe h y d ro x id e o f e t h y l and compare i t w ith lead e th y l: you would not say th a t one g la s s o f whisXy had had no e f f e c t b eca u se i t w i l l n ot maxe a man drunx q u i c x i y ? -----Not a t a l l . Q That i s p r a c tic a lly what you say about lea d t e t r a eth yl, i s -+ ? -- No., I w ould l i x e t o go bacx t o my own * and ta x e th e case o f p r u s s ic a c id . q But t h a t i s n o t o x i d i s e d . I am ta x in g a n o th e r , w h ich i s much c l o s e r a l l i e d . ----- I s n ot p r u s s ic a c id oxid ised in sm all doses to cyanic acid? In sm all hoses i s i t n o t o x id ise d to .c y a n ic a cid and excreted? I have read th a t somewhere. ' Q I do not thinX th e r e i s any a n alogy th e r e . -- i t i s Q u ite p o s s ib ly . I have alread y a p o lo g ised fo r any opinions I have given on ph ysiology, because I only g e t th e se th in g s from reading D r E dgar. S i r WILLIAM WILLCOX: Dr Edgar, you s a id you did n o t th in k lea d .tetra e th y l in sm all q u a n titie s would have a n y ^ a c tio n because i t i s o x i d i s e d ? -----X th in k i t probable, A . . Q You a r e n o t a t o x i c o l o g i s t n o r a p h y s io lo g is t ? ----- I am n o t: I am m e r e ly r e a so n in g from g e n e r a l a n a lo g y v ia chem istry, being a chem ist, . $ I t i s m erely t h e o r e t i c a l ? ----- Q u ite, ft L et me g iv e you a n o th er exam ple: a r s e n iu r e t e d hydrogi t h a t i s p o iso n o u s i n v e r y s m a ll q u a n t i t i e s ? -----Y e s. Q That i s even more r e a d ily o x id is a b le than le a d t e t r a e th y l? q And th a a m inute q u a n t i t i e s ? -----Yes. Q The w h o le q u e s t io n i s w h eth er th e drug i s a p o is o n a s s u c h ? -----P erhaps I may have been m isu n d e r sto o d , . My sta te m e n t was n ot th a t t h e r e was no s p e c i f i c e f f e c t , b ecau se I do n o t know w h eth er t h e r e t h e r e i s a s p e c i f i c e ff e c t , but I sa id th at the assum ption th at there i s One i s perhaps u n n e c e ss a r y . You want exp erim en t . rather than assum ption. Q But you w ill agree that there are such in stan ces ! known o f t h in g s w hich i n v e r y d i l u t e q u a n t it y have a poisonous a c tio n : fo r example; a r sen iu r ete d hydrogen? ---- Q u ite . - Q In more d ilu t e p ro p o rtio n s than t e t r a e th y l le a d ? ----- Yes ; and many o t h e r s b e s id e s a r s e n iu r e t e d hydrogen,' q You d id m en tio n i n you r p r e v io u s e v id e n c e , t h a t le a d '. __________ ,, ___ ___ 4 . U M U C U . X i j W o i i U l W i C a vVu u j l U ha . vw*-ex a n yA\ a c t i o n because it ia o x i d i s e d ? -----I th in k it^ p r o b a b le , Q You a r e n o t a t o x i c o l o g i s t n o r a p h y s io lo g is t ? ----- I am n o t: I am m er ely r e a so n in g from g e n e r a l a n a lo g y , % - - -I if v ia chem istry, being a chemist* / 4 I t i s m erely t h e o r e t i c a l ? ----- Q u ite. ` Q L et me g iv e you a n o th er exam ple: a r s e n iu r e t e d hydrogen* 4 t h a t i s p o iso n o u s in v e r y s m a ll q u a n t i t i e s ? -----Y e s. I Q That i s even more r e a d ily o x id is a b le than le a d t e t r a e th y l? - -- Yes* i _ I Q And th a t cuJLlew s i n m inute q u a n t i t i e s ? -----Yes, Q The w h o le q u e s t io n i s w h eth er th e drug i s a p o is o n a s s u c h ? ----- P erhaps I may have been m isu n d e r sto o d , . My sta te m e n t was n o t th a t t h e r e was no s p e c i f i c e f f e c t , b ecau se I do n o t know w h eth er t h e r e t h e r e i s a s p e c i f i c e ff e c t , but I sa id th at the assum ption th at th ere i s f one i s perhaps u n n e c e s s a r y . You want exp erim en t rath er than assum ption. Q But you w ill agree that there are such in stan ces . known o f t h in g s w hich i n v e r y d i l u t e q u a n t it y have a poisonous a c tio n : for example, a r sen iu r ete d hydrogen? -- Q uite, Q In more d ilu t e p ro p o rtio n s than t e t r a e th y l lea d ? -- Yes ; and many o t h e r s b e s id e s a r s e n iu r e t e d hydrogen.' Q You d id m en tion in your p r e v io u s e v id e n c e , t h a t le a d te tr a eth y l has a d e fin ite sp e c ific a ctio n on the . - ' ' V`-Ar* nervous system , rath er more so than organ ic lea d ? A, KE* 0018249 45 ti- Dr Edgar ---- I thinK t h a t i s a m a tte r t h a t h as been . re fe rre d to t h i s morning. There seems to he some evidence to t h a t e f f e c t , h u t w hether t h a t i s so ormnot I do n o t Know, we c e r t a in ly do get c e r t a i n o f th e a c u te neryous symptoms o rd in a ry compounds of le a d : le ad l-eare, fo r example. You g et p r a c t i c a l l y a l l th e symptoms w hich a r e u go^vemlhg a c u te t e t r a ethyl, lead poisoning occurring from tim e to tim e w ith ordinary lead . So I thinK i t i s a t l e a s t a m a tte r o f d e h a te ; as to whether th ere iis sp e c ific a c tio n o r no t. Q I t is not a m atter of dehate as to what th e se i poor people died from in th e worKs? -- C ertain ly not, Q They d ie d from symptoms q f h r a in in flam m ation? --- Yes. so a c c o rd in g to L-^AL ~ tip -- 4 3 p e r ce n t o f jtfrg c a s e s d id : a t l e a s t th e y d id not a l l d ie o f Ji t h u t th e y a l l showed th e symptoms. In one o f th e l a t e r c h a p te rs o f h i s hooK he speaKs o f deliriu m and th e liK e: h a llu c in a tio n s o f , i p e r s e c u tio n and so on: th e y w ere a l l 'ex ce e d- hy vAorganic le a d p o iso n in g . , ., Q That was e sp e c ia lly so-w ith d ia c ly io * t ? 'k ---- A p p aren tly not* ac co rd in g to my re a d in g o f it* f. Q But we had a ckse in reg ard to ca rb o n a te o f le a d w hich was m istax e n f o r e n c e p h a liti s . I f le a d t e t r a e th y l ** V* \ * MJ 4UV * * 4. 1. 4 me ; o us * t* * some ev id en ce to t h a t e f f e c t , out w hether t h a t i s so ormnot X do n o t Know, we c e r t a in ly do get c e r t a i n o f th e a c u te neryous symptoms <& o rd in a ry compounds o f le a d : le a d olreartre, f o r example. You g et p r a c t i c a l l y a l l th e symptoms w hich a r e 11 u go^enolGg a c u te t e t r a ethyl, lead poisoning (? occurring from tim e to tim e w ith ordinary lead . So I thinK i t i s a t l e a s t a m a tte r o f d e b a te ; as to whether th e re fis sp e cific a c tio n o r not. . ;:7* Q I t is not a m atter o f debate as to what th e se i poor p eo p le died from i n th e worKs? ---- C e rta in ly not. Q They d ie d from symptoms o f b r a in inflam m atio n ? ---- Yes. Bo a c*c o rd.i *n g to t ?/ s ir --------------- d ------- 43 p e r ce n t o f tfeg c a s e s d id : a t l e a s t th e y d id not a l l d ie o f i t but they a l l showed th e symptoms. In one o f th e l a t e r c h a p te rs o f h i s booK he speaKs o f d eliriu m and th e liK e: h a llu c in a tio n s o f p e r s e c u tio n and so on: th e y w ere a l l W'oxoo-iHrKteSdld- by % 1- 4 : A/Aorganic le a d p o iso n in g . , ' Q That was e s p e c ia lly so w ith diaclylofa- ? . . v- i .-- A p p aren tly n o t, ac co rd in g to my re a d in g o f i t , TiJ Q But f e had a ck.se i n reg ard to c a rb o n a te o f le a d w hich was m istaKen f o r e n c e p h a litis . I f lead t e t r a e th y l ; a c ts on th e v en tral ..nervous system i t would produce . ce,l l s , damage to th e n e rv e ^ a i4 s ? ---- Yes, q u ite p o s s ib ly . m I could n o t very w e ll d e s c r ib e th e mechanism by ' ' >" ' which i t produces i t s e ffe c t. ' K f 0018251 46 .-<Si r 71Dr Edgar. Q A n e r v e c e l l when damaged, r e c o v e r s v e r y s l o w l y , i f ever? ----- I t i s a m a tter o f which, you know much more th a n I , S ir WILLIAM WILLCOXi Thank y o u . Dr BRIDGE: Has your e x p e r ie n c e i n A m erica o f th e u s e o f rubber g lo v e s a s a p r o t e c t io n been s a t i s f a c t o r y ? -----Por concentrated handling o / e th y l flu id and pure te tr a e th y l le a d rubber i s n o t pr^toradg-y s a tis fa c to r y as a p r o te c tio n a g a in st pure e th y l flu id or pure t e t r a e th y l le a d , because * ; 1 rubbersw ells in th ese m a te r ia ls, but i t a ffo rd s temporary p r o t e c t io n . The le a d w i l l n o t go r a p id ly th rou gh rubber .. but i s ab sorb ed by t h e rubber; so th a t rubber g lo v e s ^were % used co n tin u a lly w ith concentrated m a teria l, but i t is ' n ecessary to change th e gloves' rather freq u en tly . Q, I n o th e r w ords th e y l a s t f o r a tim e? -- - Oh y e s . W ith a rubber g lo v e you can d ip your hand in ^^^ff-ethyl flu id and ta k e), ouit y o u r hand and you do n o t fin d any f l u i d p a ss through , but i f you its e a g lo v e from day to day i t w ould n o t be much good . je Q What about e t h y l p e t r o l; w ould you fin d a g lo v e s a t i s f a c t o r y t .. , CX" i n th a t case? ------1 h a r d ly th in k A VA As a m a tte r o f f a c t ,' I do not b e l i e v e i n u s in g a n y th in g bjtt my hand i n e t h y l p e t r o l, but I im agine th a t a rubber g lo v e w ould be much more e f f e c t i v e in e th y l p e t r o l than i t would be in t e t r a . eth y l lea d , because the eth y l p etro l does not have quite \ fii) a\; i ^ * th e same s w e llin g e f f e c t th a t th e t e t r a e th y l le a d and e th y l bromide would have, Q, In o th e r words t h e g lo v e s l a s t l o n g e r ? . . S i r WILLIAM WILLCOX: Thank y o u . ; Dr BRIDGE: Has your e x p e r ie n c e i n A m erica o f th e u s e o f rubber g lo v e s a s a p r o t e c t io n been s a t i s f a c t o r y ? ----- Dor - """ 11" ........ . concentrated handling o f f t h y l flu id and pure te tr a e th y l , le a d rubber i s n o t pg-efe r a b S-y s a t i s f a c t o r y a s a p r o t e c t io n --* a g a in st pure e th y l flu id or pure t e t r a e th y l le a d , because rubber sw ells in th e se m a te r ia ls, but i t a ffo r d s temporary p r o t e c t io n . The le a d w i l l n o t go r a p id ly th rou gh rubber but i s absorbed by th e rubber; so th a t rubber g lo v e s -were used con tin u ally w ith concentrated m a teria l, but i t is 1 n ecessary to change th e gloves', rath er fre q u en tly . Q I n o th e r w ords th e v l a s t f o r a tim e? ---- Oh y e s* W ith a rubber glo v e you can d ip your hand in ^y^T-ethyl flu id and take*, ou you r hand and you do n ot fin d any f lu id p ass th rou gh , but i f you u se a g lo v e from day to day i t w ould n o t be much good . Q What about e t h y l p e t r o l : w ould you f in d a g lo v e s a t i s f a c t o r y in that case? -- I hardly thin k As a m a tte r o f f a c t , I do not b e l ie v e in u s in g a n y th in g bjtt my hand i n e t h y l p e t r o l, but I im agin e t h a t a rubber g lo v e w ould be much more e f f e c t i v e in e th y l p e tr o l than i t would be in t e t r a e t h y l le a d , b eca u se th e e t h y l p e t r o l d oes n o t have q u it e *,; th e same s w e llin g e f f e c t th a t th e t e t r a e th y l le a d and ; e th y l bromide w ould'have. , Q, In o th e r words th e g lo v e s l a s t lo n g e r ? ----- Yes SIA ASOACrS AUCrLIAAH: Viixd reg ard to td e com parison meat pro f esse v Dixon da 3 given you, you adm itted in answering dim e d a t xo g iv e a man a g la s s , o f wnisKy mig a t dave an e f f e c t . I f td e Q uestion was w netder a g la s s o f w ater fix'd 10 d rey s o f wdisKy would dave any e f f e c t , would you td in x xdat td e two were n e c e s s a r ily c o m p a ra b le ? ---- Hy guess would oe t d a t ode g la s s o f wdisKy would as dave a c o n s id e ra b le e f f e c t and xde g la ss o f ta x e r w itd 10 drops o f waisKy would dave none td a t could oe measured, 'r OHAPMui: some people dave t o l a u s t d a t td e y a re a b le to t e n oy xde sm ell o f xde exdaust g ases w hether o rd in a ry p e t r o l o r exdyl p e tr o l i s being u se d , Gould you t e l l in sued a c a s e ? ---- I xdind i f a man says de can sm ell a th in g i t i s very d i f f i c u l t xo d isp ro v e i t . f a t e your,ow n c a s e ? ---- C e rta in ly IL dave never sm elt xde V-Ujuv*r*f V'"*'-"-.' . vA NV-rV\ .d iffe re n c e Anr g a so lin e s in xde ex d au st gas. and xiae. tencjeiaa^i-a r" ''\ ' :Iv '*./* " -! r; ' ? . fc ri> S . t o ' o e ; p r e s e n t . because t e t r a - e x d y l lead i s muca more A /- read ily o x id isao ie than td e p e tro l, and xdat i t edould p e r s is t tarcugd td e combustion of xde engine is q u ite inconceivable. A q u e stio n was asxed t d i s morning about td e o ccu rren ce o f oxX te x r a - e td y l lead in td e crand c a se . A q u e s tio n was asxed me when I was dere u e fo re and I' sa id I dad no ev id ence on td a t p o in t, I dave a l i t t l e b it .of evidence which could n o t be c a lle d c o n c lu s iv e , 'tie dad an engine vraied ran 150 y.j,-y i dours on exdyl p e t r o l , and which c o n ta in e d in many cases l i c o n s id e ra b ly more lead td a n i s used com m ercially, vie d ra in e d td e cran 'ii ca se o i l , examined i t f o r lead oy an& yses, td e n ^su'D^ected i t to steam d i s t i l l a t i o n fo r an dour and a d a if , m m pa a t wo a a g t a s - s . &t vaxtoi'sy ;a e :;i t n a y * an. e f f e c t. I f th e q u e stio n v a s .w hether a g la ss of w ater w ith 10 arcp o o f whisxy would Have any e f f e c t , would you th in x t h a t th e two e re n e c e s s a r ily c o m p a ra b le ? ---- Hy guess would oe t h a t th e g la s s o f whisxy would as 'nave a c o n s id e ra b le e f f e c t and th e g la s s o f w ater w ith 10 drops o f whisXy would 1 nave none th a t could oe m easured. OHAp: Some people nave d o I d us t h a t th ey a re a o le to t e l l oy th e sm ell o f th e exhaust g ases w hether o rd in a ry p e tro l o r ethyL p e tr e l i s being u sed . Could you t e l l in such, a c a s e ? ---- I th in x i f a man says he can sm ell a th in g V i t is yery d if f ic u lt to disprove i t , 0 Taxe yo u r c*n c a s e ? ---- C e rta in ly II have never sm elt th e u ' Nv-n-'\ ^ d iffe re n c e mr g a so lin e s i n th e exh au st gas, and tja te n is n avng ' V-1' /.-t.y f; - *"i` ' , f o r n ^ t;co oe p r e s e n t, oecause t e tn a - e th y l lead i s much more A , A- ' read ily oxiainaoie than th e p e tro l, and th a t i t should p e r s is t through th e combustion c f th e engine is q u ite inconceivable. A q u e s tio n was ashed t h i s morning aoout th e o ccu rren ce o f trui t e t r a - e t h y l Lead in th e cranx c a s e , A q u e s tio n was asxed me 4 when I was here b efo re and I sa id I haa no ev id en ce on th a t p o in t, I have a l i t t l e b it of evidence whicn could n o t be c a lle d c o n c lu siv e . Tie had an engine w hich ra n is o hours on e th y l p e t r o l, and which co n tain e d in many cases c o n s id e ra b ly more lead th a n i s used com m ercially, we d ra in e d th e cranx case o i l , examined i t f o r lead by analyses, th e n su b jected i t to steam d i s t i l l a t i o n fo r an hour and a "naif and co n cen trated th e d i s t i l l a t e and examined i t fo r le a p . We found .4 7 <per ce n t o f t o t a l lead in th e o i l , put no Lead in th e steam d i s t i l l a t e , waio'n c e r t a in ly 'would in d ic a te th a t the te tra -e ta y l lead uoes not occur in the cranx case o i l . That is only an is o la te d case anu i iv e i t fo r 1- L3: Br Edgar 'iifi'ii i*o i c w o rth . There a re many c i t i e s in trie U niit--edr s ta te d v e e r e a very la rg e numuers ci' c a rs a re u sin g mt n i s lIco--aarlfTl: naa ve you haa any com plaints a t a r y tim e in reg ard to th e s u e 1 1 ? ---- I nave seen to ld t h a t r.-J y f.> j f Tr-iV ^T- can sme l L cn e t a y l p e tre ' . from when th e y a r e nor-, l e made experim ents on th is lin e . e nave run a car on pure te r r a - e th y l lead . That i s te tr a - m aterial auaed detec t a smell of di -e t hyline th ey dc from t jl XZv A. that taa t is t and n.0X to th e HaiKLIAii: But w hether you can sm ell th e t e t r a - e t h y i or net ,1 s i t more o f f e n s i v e ? ---- p e rs o n a lly i could n e t t e l l th e d if f e r e n c e , But th a t i s a m a tte r'o f o p in io n . . I have a g a in and a g a in come a c ro s s p eo p le wnc say ; "Oh, t h a t car in fro n t is uurning eth y l p e tre l: want a b eastly stinK "? ---- I was inform ed by a viftj23ln only th e o th e r day t h a t he had oeen u sin g e to y l f o r some tim e^and he was d r iv in g seme f r ie n d s o u t in a salo o n c a r , and th e man in th e oaett s e a t began to comment on th e f a c t t h a t th e fumes o f e th y l tAi, s'-vf.-".A' p e tr e l were in ju r in g him. This^&ewaa* s a id : tOh, i t i s net (H f b u rn in g e th y l p e t r o l 1' -- he had not oeen a b le to g e t a r y e th y l p e tro l on that, day and he was uurning something e ls e . So you see you cannot alw ays t e l l oy a c a su a l o p in io n . PROFESSOR. EIXQi'i: ucmLdthe bromide cau se t h a t s m e l l ? ---- The bromide compounds a re in very m inute q u a n t itie s . But m inute tr a c e s c f oromide compounds a r e r a th e r d e te c ta o ie oy sm e ll. a t any pime in regard to -ode s m e ll ? ---- I aave oeen -g o id th a t . .. . ' r&ej?.. can sm ell a d iffe r e n c e in ta e exhaust vaen tney are runran on e tn y l p e t r o l from when th e y a re n o t. l e made experim ents on t h i s l i n e , vie dave ru n a c a r on pure t e t r a - e t h y l le a d . Triai: i s t e t r a - e t o y l lead in per.ro! T ilth no bromide o r o rd e r m aterial aaaed. In sued cases .they dave never been able to d e te c t a sm e ll. On th e o ta e r dand i f we xaxe a sm all amount c f u i- e td y l in e oromide th e same people g e t th e same sraell a s j CXj U'A.. th ey do from t a e w a tc aistiay ! p e t r e l : co n seq u en tly I expect t d a t t d a t i s to be a t t r i b u t a b l e to tr a c e s o f bromide compound ana nor. to ta e p rese n ce c f le a d . H d lK.d b i: But wh e t h e r yo u ca n s m e ll t h e t e t r a - e t d y l or n o r , , is i t more o f f e n s i v e ? ---- p e rs o n a lly i could n e t t e l l th e d if f e r e n c e . But t d a t i s a m a t t e r o f o p i n io n , > I a a ve a ga in - a n d a g a i n come a c r o s s p e o p le wnc s a y; Oh, t h a t car in fr o n t is ourning et h yl p e t r o l: baat a oeastLy stin K ? ^,w i;'vfermed b y a - b^rmSn on l y t h e o t n e r u a y t n a t h e US j. n g e od y l i c r som e t ,i n e f a n d tie w.a s u r i v i n g som e u t in a sa lo on c a r , and t h e man in t a e oacx s e a t COI:m e n t o n ij a e f a c t t n a t t h e fu m e s o f e t a y l p e tr o l s e r e i n ju r in g dim, Tdis^&eiH&an s a id : OOd^ir, i s not burning e th y l p e tro l" -- he dad not been a b le to g et any e th y l p e tr o l on that, day and he was ourning som ething e l s e . . go you see you cannot alw ays t e l l by a c a su a l o p in io n . PE0PES30R BIXOP: M auidtde bromide cau se t d a t sm ell? ---- The bromide compounds a re in very m inute q u a n t i t i e s . But m inute tr a c e s c f bromide compounds a re r a ttie r d e te c ta b le by sm e ll. SIR wiLLIisM "vTILLOOX: As re g a rd s th e im m ediate e f f e c t s , i td in x everyone das agreed th a t th e danger from carbon monoxide i s im m easuraoly g r e a te r th a n l e a d ? ---- i scould c e r t a i n l y tdinK sc , ' ' GHfJHXihJ: Tdanx you. ( The 'T itn e ss x itn d rew ) ( The Gommittee ndriourned )