Document wy6XXNE3Oq7vmkjnoEOwwe03

Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF HARRIS COUNTY, TEXAS 11th JUDICIAL DISTRICT ------------------------------------------------ X Robert B. Hille, Executor : and as Representative ofthe : Estate of Mecom McGlothlin, : 1 Plaintiff, : v. Owens-Illinois, Inc., et : al., Defendants. : -------------------------------------------------- X : No.2007-18457 Washington, D.C. Thursday, August 13, 2009 Videotaped telephonic deposition of Judith C. Stadler, Ph.D., a witness herein, called for examination by counsel for Plaintiff in the above-entitled matter, pursuant to notice, the witness being duly sworn by DENNIS A. DINKEL, a Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, taken at the offices of Crowell & Moring, LLP, 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C. at 10:15 a.m., Thursday, August 13, 2009, and the proceedings being taken down by Stenotype by DENNIS A. DINKEL, FAPR, CRR, and transcribed under his direction. Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13 -2009 2 (Pages 2 to 5) 24 1 APPEARANCES: 1 APPEARANCES - continued: 2 3 On behalf of the Plaintiff: 3 On behalf of Cleaver Brooks: 4 CHRISTOPHER L. MADEKSHO, ESQ 4 H. BRANDON DEL CASTILLO, ESQ. 5 The Madeksho Law Firm, PLLC 5 White Shaver 6 8866 Gulf Freeway, No. 440 6 11200 Westheimer, Suite 200 7 Houston, TX 77017 7 Houston, TX 77042 8 713-910-8000 8 713-953-0860 9 10 On behalf of Dupont: 10 On behalf of Trane U.S. Inc. f/k/a American Standar 11 LARRY E. COTTEN, ESQ. 11 Inc.: 12 Cotten Schmidt 12 STEPHEN K. GUIDRY, ESQ. 13 420 Throckmorton Street, Suite 500 13 Germer Gertz, L.L.P. 14 Ft. Worth, TX 76102 14 P.O. Box 4915 15 817-338-4500 15 Beaumont, TX 77704 16 and 16 409-654-6700 17 KAREN A. ROSENTHAL, ESQ. 17 18 Crowell & Moring, LLP 18 On behalf of Foster Wheeler: 19 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. 19 DAVID L. RED, ESQ. 20 Washington, DC 20004 20 Mehaffy Weber, PC 21 202-624-2500 21 2615 Calder, Suite 800 22 22 Beaumont, TX 77702 23 23 409-835-5011 24 24 25 25 35 1 APPEARANCES - continued: 1 APPEARANCES - continued: 3 On behalf of ExxonMobil Oil Corporation, Ametek, a id 3 On behalf of Mine Safety Appliances Company: 4 Riley Stoker Corporation: 4 DIANE HUYNH, ESQ. 5 HILLARY KRAMER, ESQ. 5 Johnson, Spalding, Doyle, West & Trent, L.L.P 6 DeHay & Elliston, L.L.P. 6 919 Milam, Suite 1700 7 3500 Bank of America Plaza 7 Houston, TX 77002 8 901 Main Street 8 713-222-2323 9 Dallas, TX 75202 9 10 214-210-2461 10 On behalf of Triplex: 11 11 BARBARA BARRON, ESQ. 12 On behalf of Ingersoll Rand: 12 Mehaffy Weber 13 MATTHEW E. LIEBNICK, ESQ. 13 2615 Calder Avenue 14 Forman Perry Watkins Krutz & Tardy LLP 14 Beaumont, TX 77702 15 2001 Bryan Street, Suite 1300 15 409-835-5011 16 Dallas, TX 75201 16 17 214-905-2924 17 On behalf of Zurn Industries, Inc.: 18 18 BOBBIE STRATTON, ESQ. 19 On behalf of Crane Co.: 19 Spain Chambers 20 BO KALABUS, ESQ. 20 3900 Two Houston Center 21 K&L Gates 21 909 Fannin Street 22 1717 Main Street 22 Houston, TX 77010 23 Dallas, TX 75201 23 713-650-9700 24 214-939-4968 24 25 25 Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 3 (Pages 6 to 8) 67 1 APPEARANCES - continued: 1 22 3 On behalf of Oakfabco Inc: 4 NICK BALDO, ESQ 3 4 5 Stevens Baldo Freeman & Lighty L.L.P. 5 6 550 Fannin 6 7 Suite 700 7 8 Beaumont, TX 77701 8 9 409-835-5200 10 On behalf of 9 10 11 11 12 GREG DEANS,ESQ. 12 13 Deans & Lyons, LLP 13 14 325 North Saint Paul Street 14 15 Suite 1500Beaumont, TX 77704 15 16 Dallas, TX 75201 16 17 214-965-8500 18 17 18 19 Also Present: 20 Mia Marbury, Videographer 19 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 10 Respiratory Protective Equipment document 134 11 Letter to Dr. D'Alonzo from Dr. Stopps, 136 11-2-64 12 Memorandum to Dr. Zapp from Dr. Stopps, 11-2-64 13 Memorandum to all plant physicians, 11-9-64 14 Summary of meeting, to Dr. Zapp from Dr. Stopps, 10-25-66 137 13! 14t 15 Memo to plant physicians from Dr. D'Alonzo, 14 November 8, 1966 16 Letter from Dr. Stopps to Dr. Harriet Hardy, 144 7-5-67 17 Memo re Dust Control, to field project managers, 4-5-68 145 18 Memo from Pittsburgh Corning Corporation to Mr. Keuper, 1-15-68 150 19 Memo to Jeremiah Lynch, U.S. Public Health Service from Mr. Thatcher, 2-20-68 15 20 Letter to Herb Stockinger from Adrian Linch, 152 4-1-68 21 Letter from Kent Keuper to Adrian Linch, 153 7-11-68 22 Safety Manual For Contractors 23 Safety Handbook For Contractors 156 158 68 1 CONTENTS 2 WITNESS PAGE 1 PROCEEDINGS 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. Her 3 JUDITH C. STADLER, Ph.D. 3 begins tape 1, volume I, in the videotape deposition 4 4 of Dr. Judith Stadler taken in the matter of Robert 5 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF 1C 5 B. Hill, Executor and As Representative of the Estate 6 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DuPONT 125 6 of Mecom McGlothlin versus Owens-Illinois, 7 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR MINE SAFETY 161 7 Incorporated, et al., in the 11th Judicial District 8 APPLIANCES COMPANY 8 Court of Harris County, Texas, cause number 9 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF 167 9 2007-18457. 10 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DuPONT 190 10 Today's date is August 13, 2009. The time 11 11 on the video screen is 10:15 and 34 seconds. This 12 AFTERNOON SESSION 84 12 deposition is being held in the law offices of 13 13 Crowell & Moring at 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, 14 EXHIBITS 14 Northwest, Washington, D.C. 20004. 15 EXHIBIT NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 15 It was noticed by counsel for the 16 1 To: R.D. Nelson from K.N. Yarbrough, 3-17-76 42 16 plaintiffs. 17 2 FYI: Toxic Substances Control Act 44 17 The court reporter today is Dennis Dinkel. 18 3 To John Zapp from Edward Radford, 9-19-55 54 18 The video camera operator is Mia Marbury, both on 19 4 DuPont's Experience in Toxicity Hazard 61 19 behalf of Stratos Legal Services. 20 Control 20 Will the court reporter please swear in 21 5 National Safety News, September 1935 95 21 the witness, after which we can begin? 22 6 Modern Occupational Medicine 107 22 Whereupon, 23 7 Sabine River Works, Technical Department 112 24 Process Laboratory 2 3 JUDITH C. STADLER, Ph.D., 24 was called as a witness by counsel for PLAINTIFF, and 25 9 S2T standard 132 25 having been duly sworn by the Notary Public, was Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 4 (Pages 9 to 12) 9 11 1 examined and testified as follows: 1 deposition notice in front of you? 2 MR. MADEKSHO: Thank you. 2 A. Not in front of me, no. 3 Larry, could we get some agreements on the 3 Q. Okay. Dennis, do you have a copy of the 4 record, first of all? This is to be done pursuant to 4 deposition notice in front of you? 5 the Texas rules? 5 THE REPORTER: I do not. 6 MR. COTTEN: Yes. 6 MR. MADEKSHO: That's fine. You have seei 7 MR. MADEKSHO: I'm sorry. Did I drown 7 the deposition notice, have you not, Dr. Stadler? 8 your answer out? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have. 9 MR. COTTEN: No, that's all right. Yes. 9 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 10 MR. MADEKSHO: And this deposition should 10 Q. It is my understanding -- and please 11 allow for an objection by one defendant that stands 11 correct me if I'm wrong -- that you are here to speak 12 for all defendants. That way the court reporter does 12 on behalf of DuPont as the person most knowledgeable 13 not have to look back -- 13 as to three areas in my deposition notice; does that 14 (Telephonic interruption.) 14 ring a bell? 15 MR. MADEKSHO: What's all that? 15 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 16 MR. COTTEN: Sounds like somebody must 16 THE WITNESS: I don't think I'm the most 17 have put their call on hold and then hung up. 17 knowledgeable, but I am the corporate representative; 18 (Telephonic interruption.) 18 and there are three areas that I have been asked to 19 MR. MADEKSHO: Ma'am, I'm afraid that 19 speak to. 20 we're on a telephonic deposition and somebody must 20 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 21 have dialed that number by mistake. 21 Q. All right. Well, we may need to deal with 22 Can we also agree, secondly, that one 22 that later; but I think as of right now, you're kind 23 objection is good for all defendants so the court 23 of trying to answer what I'm trying to ask. 24 reporter doesn't have to go back and ask who asked 24 You're here to talk about the knowledge of 25 the objection? 25 asbestos-containing products used on DuPont's 10 12 1 MR. COTTEN: That's agreeable to me. 1 premises in question during the relevant time period 2 MR. MADEKSHO: And how long do you all 2 and that was number two, if that refreshes your 3 want to read and sign? Doesn't matter me. 3 recollection? 4 MR. COTTEN: 30 days is fine. 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. MADEKSHO: That's fine. 5 Q. DuPont's knowledge of asbestos hazards 6 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF 6 prior to 1970, that was number 4? 7 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Dr. Stadler? 8 Q. And measures taken by DuPont to make safe 9 A. Yes. 9 their premises in question up to 1970? 10 Q. How do you do this morning? 10 A. That's correct. 11 A. Good morning. 11 Q. Okay. Now we can begin. Ms. Stadler, 12 Q. Well, I want to clarify something before 12 have you given a deposition before? 13 we begin our questioning. You're not the person 13 A. Yes. 14 who's talking specifically about exposure to asbestos 14 Q. On how many occasions? 15 or anything else for that matter at the Texas plants, 15 A. I would say it's been maybe five or six 16 correct? 16 occasions. 17 A. Correct. 17 Q. Okay. What was the subject of those 18 Q. And do we know who that person may be? 18 lawsuits in which you gave deposition testimony? 19 A. I do not. 19 A. There were pesticide cases when I was 20 Q. You do not? Okay. 20 actively working for DuPont. I also was deposed in 21 MR. MADEKSHO: And Larry, I guess you and 21 carpet toxicity cases. 22 I can talk about that off the record. That's fine. 22 Q. Okay. When you say pesticide cases, can 23 MR. COTTEN: Yes. 23 you -- what was -- I mean, what was the -- what was 24 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 24 the matter? Who was suing whom? 25 Q. Ms. Stadler, do you have a copy of the 25 A. DuPont was being sued, but it was Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 6 (Pages 17 to 20) 17 19 1 Q. Okay. And how about we do this then: 1 A. I believe -- I did not personally count 2 I'll just ask you about, you know, what you know an d2 any asbestos samples. I believe that people who did 3 how it relates to this case; and I think that may 3 that type of work were also using a phase contrast 4 work; is that fair? 4 microscope. 5 A. Okay. 5 Q. And what was the power of those phase 6 Q. Or what you've experienced rather and how 6 contrast microscopes? 7 it may relate to -- now, can you please give us the 7 A. I do not have any idea. 8 benefit of your educational background? 8 Q. Okay. Who is the person or people who did 9 A. My educational background, I have a 9 this type of work at DuPont when you got to Haskell 10 bachelor's degree in biology. I have a master's 10 Labs? 11 degree in industrial hygiene from the University of 11 A. I do not know the names of people. I know 12 Pittsburgh, and a Ph.D. in toxicology from the 12 there were people who worked on counting samples. 13 University of Pittsburgh. 13 There was still a very large sample 14 Q. And your background in industrial hygiene 14 counting program at that time. There were industria 15 at the University of Pittsburgh, what did you study 15 hygienists that kind of moved in and out of the 16 in your courses to obtain that master's? 16 laboratories. So I can't really give you specific 17 A. I studied such things as analytical 17 names. I was only aware -- because that was not part 18 methods, sampling methods, various things about 18 of my job or my department, I was only aware that it 19 occupational diseases, courses in doing these things 19 was going on. 20 in the laboratory, calibration of equipment; that 20 Q. Let's kind of back up for a second. 21 kind of thing. 21 I haven't really gotten through your 22 Q. When you say doing these things, what do 22 academic background yet. 23 you mean "doing these things"? 23 What about your studies in toxicology? 24 A. In the laboratory, actually setting up 24 What type of studies or research or whatever did you 25 equipment, doing microscopic examinations, getting 25 have to undertake in order to obtain a Ph.D. in 18 20 1 experience in actually the points around doing 1 toxicology at the University of Pittsburgh? 2 sampling. 2 A. I was focused on respiratory sensitivity. 3 Q. Okay. Sampling of what? 3 I worked with developing models, animal models to 4 A. It could have been chemical sampling, 4 look at chemicals that may cause sensitivity or 5 particulate sampling. We certainly learned how to 5 allergy; and that is my area of research. 6 count asbestos samples as part of the program. 6 Q. What original research did you conduct as 7 Q. All right. And how does one count 7 a researcher looking to obtain a Ph.D.? 8 asbestos samples? 8 A. When I was working on my Ph.D. at the 9 A. You look for an aspect ratio in a fiber of 9 University of Pittsburgh, I developed a model with -- 10 three to one. You count the samples by taking a 10 using guinea pigs to look for delayed 11 small portion of a membrane and embedding it in 11 hypersensitivity; in other words, a reaction that 12 material for a microscope; and these are generally 12 might come on not immediately but 12 hours later. 13 gridded and you count the fibers in a particular 13 Those were generally protein materials; 14 grid; and then you know how big the overall filter is 14 and then we also used models -- specifically the 15 and can determine how many filters are represented on 15 Ph.D. that I was working with when I was a student 16 that filter. 16 had a grant looking at isocyanates; and those were 17 And then you have to take other pieces of 17 the models for trying to develop ways to look at 18 information, like how long the sample was taken, wh at 18 hypersensitivity from chemicals. 19 the flow rate is, that kind of thing to come up with 19 Q. Do you believe that animal studies are 20 an ultimate concentration of the fibers in a sample. 20 helpful in determining the metabolic processes of 21 Q. And what type of microscope did you use? 21 toxicants to which humans are exposed? 22 A. It was a phase contrast microscope at the 22 A. Absolutely. They are very helpful. It 23 time I was doing it at the University. 23 just depends what animal you need to use for what 24 Q. And what type of microscope was used at 24 process you are looking at. 25 DuPont? 25 Q. And did these analyses and animal studies Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 7 (Pages 21 to 24) 21 23 1 continue after you got to DuPont while at DuPont in 1 necessarily did we ever refer to them; but they would 2 1984? 2 have -- maybe, a big long name of what the active 3 A. Yes. DuPont had a laboratory and did 3 ingredient might be. 4 animal studies. 4 Q. Was it a CAS number? Or was it an 5 Q. Okay. Now, did it do -- what types of 5 internal number? 6 animal studies did it do? 6 A. Generally, there was not yet a CAS number 7 A. I can speak to the experience I had 7 assigned, when you're looking at things a company has 8 specifically, when I first went to DuPont, I worked 8 just recently invented. They have not yet applied 9 in their long-term studies. That would be 9 for a CAS number. If there was a CAS number 10 carcinogenicity studies. 10 involved, it might have been a chemical that had been 11 Later, I worked in their inhalation group; 11 around for a while. 12 and we did inhalation studies with various chemicals 12 Q. Anything about asbestos in any of them? 13 to determine if they were toxic to the lungs and to 13 A. No. Because DuPont was not a producer of 14 animals. 14 asbestos. It was not typical for the company to look 15 And those were the major areas that I 15 into products that we bought from someone else. 16 worked in; and eventually then, I managed the general 16 Q. Okay. The active carriers -- the active 17 toxicology group. 17 components of the pesticide would have been solvents 18 Q. And did DuPont do any teratogenic toxicity 18 and not fibers, correct? 19 studies? 19 A. I don't think you would call them 20 A. Yes. That was one of the types of studies 20 solvents. They were much more complex organic type 21 that we did, though I did not personally do those 21 of chemicals. 22 studies. 22 Q. Like what? 23 Q. What about say neural tube defect type 23 A. Well, I've used the -- I can give you 24 studies? 24 something like Benlate, but it had a really long 25 A. We did neurotoxicity studies. I'm not 25 active ingredient name; and I can't remember these 22 24 1 sure that we ever did anything with neural tube 1 long names. We're talking, you know, 30 or 40 2 defects other than if you were to see that kind of 2 letters and beta this and whatever, methyl that. 3 outcome from a teratology study. 3 Q. I'm trying to kind of determine the -- 4 Q. And what types of toxicants were studied 4 the -- just the depth of your expertise. It seems 5 in those respects? 5 like am I correct in saying that you have intimate 6 A. Well, I would say most of the work that 6 knowledge of the types of research that was conducted 7 DuPont did at the laboratory was actually for 7 there at DuPont? 8 pesticides, because the studies were required to 8 A. I have knowledge in general -- the 9 register the pesticides. But then DuPont did other 9 knowledge of what we did at Haskell Laboratory in the 10 studies that were done on their products, 10 toxicology group. 11 specifically that was the charge of the laboratory to 11 Q. Okay. Well, now we can get back to, I 12 ensure that DuPont's products that they sold were 12 guess, talking about your employment for the first 13 safe; and so those were the kind of things we worked 13 time. 14 on. 14 In 1984, when you got to DuPont, what part 15 Q. And you understand that pesticide is a 15 of DuPont did you go to work for? 16 generic product name, correct? 16 A. I went to work at Haskell Laboratories, as 17 A. Pesticides, in general, I mean, DuPont 17 a toxicologist. 18 made quite a few different pesticides. 18 Q. And what was your understanding as to your 19 Q. What was the specific chemical toxicants 19 job duties when you were employed in '84? 20 that were the subject of the study, or the research? 20 A. I started out as a study director, which 21 A. In each case, they were pesticides. 21 is a term used for someone who actually oversees a 22 Pesticides would be an active -- there would be an 22 study; and I was working in the chronic studies 23 active ingredient in the pesticide; and I'm not quite 23 group, which was primarily long-term, what is 24 sure how you want me to answer that. I mean, when w/e 24 required by the government is a two-year rat study or 25 did them, they were coded by certain names, not 25 an 18-month mouse study to determine whether a Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 8 (Pages 25 to 28) 25 27 1 particular chemical will cause cancer. 1 was conducting. Study reports. Once I was writing 2 Q. Okay. And again, animal studies -- okay. 2 study reports, things pertaining to the studies, if 3 Those are -- some of the animal studies we 3 there was literature. 4 were referring to earlier in this deposition, right? 4 I took a lot of my books and information 5 A. That's correct. 5 that I had from when I was in school to the office 6 Q. And how many people were at Haskell Labs 6 with me, where it might be helpful to me. 7 for DuPont in '84 when you got there? 7 Q. Okay. So when you say prior studies, 8 A. Oh, I can't remember exactly. It could be 8 you're talking about the literature already in the 9 somewhere in the neighborhood of 150, 180 people 9 body of published literature? 10 total. 10 A. Well -- 11 Q. What about in 2007 when you left? 11 Q. Or are you talking about internal prior 12 A. Probably closer to 120, 130, something 12 studies? 13 like that. 13 A. There might have been prior studies. 14 Q. When you got to Haskell in 2000 -- strike 14 Let's say I was doing a long-term, two-year study on 15 that. When you got to Haskell in 1984, what did your 15 a particular chemical. I might have had copies of 16 office or work space look like? 16 some of the shorter term studies to help me 17 A. Well, I had an office. We were initially 17 understand the toxicity of the chemical that would 18 located in what we would call the main building. 18 then help set dose levels. So I might have some of 19 They actually opened a chronic studies building. 19 those prior reports for the chemical in my office. 20 Then I had an office there. In that building, we had 20 When I talk about publications, mostly 21 the animal areas isolated. That was to protect the 21 initially when I went there, I just took publications 22 animals from disease so that the studies were 22 with me that I had used as references when I was in 23 conducted under very clean conditions. 23 school. 24 Q. Understood. 24 Q. And those prior studies you're talking 25 When you -- did you have an office or a 25 about as opposed to publications, are they prior 26 28 1 cubicle or what in 1984? 1 DuPont studies? 2 A. I had an office. 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. Okay. And when you walked into your 3 Q. And so how does a researcher such as 4 office, about how big was it? 4 yourself new to DuPont know not to restudy somethin 5 A. Oh, maybe 12 by 12. 5 that's already been studied sufficiently? 6 Q. And what all was in your office in 1984? 6 A. Well, you know that if the company has 7 A. When I first walked in before I brought 7 invented a brand-new chemical, we would have the 8 all of my books and everything, there was a desk -- 8 reports there because the company did the studies 9 Q. Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. 9 right there. 10 A. -- there was a desk. There were file 10 We also had a library and a very large 11 cabinets, and bookshelves. 11 information group who maintained extensive -- I woul 12 Q. Was there a computer in 1984? 12 say shelves or extensive records. We knew what all 13 A. I'm trying to remember if there was 13 the previous studies were that DuPont had done; and 14 actually a computer when I walked in; but we did 14 so you could go to the information group and find out 15 ultimately have computers. 15 what was available; maybe the studies were right 16 Q. And what were in those file cabinets in 16 there on the property in the vault or they may have 17 your office when you got there in '84? 17 been in the hall of records. 18 A. Well, when I first got there, I was 18 Q. Okay. What was the name of the 19 sharing an office with someone who was leaving; s 19 information group? 20 many of his things were there; but when he left, he 20 A. The information section. 21 cleared out everything. 21 Q. And was that a department of DuPont as 22 Q. Okay. Typically, what was in the file 22 well? 23 cabinets of the office of someone such as yourself 23 A. No. I'm referring to the department that 24 conducting research at DuPont in '84? 24 we had right at Haskell Laboratory. 25 A. Well, I would have protocols for studies I 25 Q. That's the information group you're Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 9 (Pages 29 to 32) 29 31 1 talking about? 1 Okay. When was the first year that you 2 A. Yes. 2 recall having a computer in your office at Haskell 3 Q. So Haskell Labs had a division that was an 3 Labs? 4 information section? 4 A. I would say that it was during the first 5 A. That's correct. They had oversight of all 5 year that I started. I just do not remember 6 of DuPont information; and then we had a library of 6 specifically having one the first day I walked in the 7 published documents and books. 7 door. 8 Q. And the library of published documents and 8 Q. Okay. So around 1985 or so? 9 books, what did that comprise? 9 A. That's a good determination. Probably in 10 A. Well, it was a rather large collection of 10 1984 when I started, but later. 11 medical literature, chemical literature, just a 11 Q. And what did you use that computer for? 12 variety of things; and you know, back then, an old 12 A. Primarily it was e-mail and internal 13 card catalog where you could look in the catalog and 13 communications back then. There was not the kind of 14 see what was there. 14 availability to the Internet or anything like that. 15 Much later, of course, that all became 15 Q. Okay. And at what point were you able to 16 computerized. 16 search databases on your computer? 17 Q. When you say that all became computerized, 17 A. I do not remember. I think we could 18 you are talking about nowadays you can do a MedLine 18 search internal -- in some internal information on 19 search, among other searches? 19 the computer initially; but by today's standard, it 20 A. Correct. 20 was a very kind of backward system. 21 Q. And so DuPont had that ability back in 21 Q. Right. And there's no question that the 22 '84? 22 speed and power of databases has developed 23 A. No. I don't recall -- 23 significantly in the last 25 years. 24 Q. Not MedLine, but the card catalog system? 24 Okay. What's the first year you recall - 25 A. The card catalog system for the library 25 you, right now -- as you sit here -- recall having a 30 32 1 just as you would walk in almost any type of library, 1 2 they had a card catalog system for the library, 2 3 published literature. 3 4 They also had a system for cataloging all 4 5 the DuPont studies, and people who worked in the 5 6 information group could help you research a chemical 6 7 if you wanted. 7 8 Q. And how far back did those DuPont studies 8 9 go? 9 10 A. Well, Haskell Laboratory originated in 10 11 1935; and they started doing studies then; and DuPont 11 12 kept all the studies they did from that time forward. 12 13 Q. Okay. And when Haskell Labs was formed in 13 14 1935, what prior existing library did Haskell Labs 14 15 take up? What did that have in it? 15 16 A. Before 1935, there was no Haskell 16 17 Laboratory, but there was a medical department at 17 18 DuPont. DuPont established a medical department bac 18 19 in 1915; and I don't know that much about what they 19 20 had, but I know there was some sort of medical 20 21 literature, whether any medical doctors that worked 21 22 for DuPont had their own little library in their 22 23 office or there was a bigger library, I do not have 23 24 knowledge of that. 24 25 Q. That's fine. 25 database where you could search articles for the purposes of understanding the prior art and prior studies relevant to your subject of research? A. Let me clarify something here. I don't know exactly when we moved into having things like easy Internet access; but I would say it was in the 1970s, but I think that a researcher at Haskell -- the system was much more work through your librarian or your information assistant and go to them and they had some sort of databases where they could look for things rather than the individual researcher having access to that. Q. Rather than trying to reconstruct evolution, why don't I -- I think I have a better line of questioning. How about when you left in 2007? What was your computer capable of doing in your office? Strike all that. What did your office look like in 2007 when you left? A. Much like it did initially only there was a lot more literature there. There was a lot more in the way of information documents. And I had a modern, up to date computer by which I could then - I could search for things at the laboratory as well as on-line for publications, that kind of thing. Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 10 (Pages 33 to 36) 33 35 1 Q. And when you say search for things at the 1 So you really went back to the originator 2 laboratory on your computer, are you talking about 2 of the product to try to find out what they knew 3 prior internal studies as well as published 3 about it. 4 literature? 4 Q. And if DuPont was the originator of the 5 A. Yes. 5 product, then it would refer to its own studies, 6 Q. Okay. And so when -- strike all that. 6 correct? 7 DuPont's Haskell Lab studied the products 7 A. That's correct. And we would get 8 before -- the products that DuPont made -- strike all 8 inquiries about our studies and provide our studies 9 that. 9 and in many instances publish the work from DuPont 10 Haskell Labs studied the products that it 10 Q. Publish the work at DuPont? Is that what 11 made before it sold them, at Haskell Labs, correct? 11 you said? 12 A. Yes. That was listed as the purpose of 12 A. Yes. In many instances, we did -- 13 the laboratory, to study the materials. And 13 scientists at DuPont wrote publications on the work 14 specifically Haskell Laboratory was charged with 14 we did there for the -- 15 determining the safety of the products they made and 15 Q. It sounds to me like Haskell Labs was the 16 also waste streams. 16 keeper of the keys to the kingdom of knowledge, so to 17 Q. All right. And so if Haskell Labs got 17 speak, as far as hazards were concerned? 18 some kind of complaints under TSCA, for example, ho w 18 A. Well, it was sort of a central place. 19 did Haskell Labs go about addressing that? 19 People in the company, no matter where they were, 20 A. I'm not sure what you mean by complaint 20 would call the information section or the information 21 under TSCA? 21 group at Haskell, and they would be able to find it 22 Q. Right. 22 either in Haskell, in the library, in the company 23 A. If it were a product that we made, we 23 records, or if that was not possible, we had other 24 would certainly look into it. We would look at the 24 libraries that we could access to find the 25 studies that we already had. We might actually do 25 information. 34 36 1 more studies if that were necessary to determine 1 Q. And again, you can go and search in a 2 whether or not, you know, there was an issue with a 2 computer today and have access to studies conducte< 3 product. 3 by DuPont in 1935 and later, correct? 4 Q. And so say somebody had a complaint about 4 A. The people at Haskell can get to the 5 asbestos and they went to -- you know, they went to 5 DuPont studies. They are not necessarily all 6 their foreman, their supervisor, and their supervisor 6 available -- in other words, you can't read the 7 kicked the complaint up to Haskell Labs, what would 7 report of the study; but you can get access to 8 Haskell Labs do? Would it go into a computer and 8 knowing whether the studies were done and what the 9 type in asbestos and here are all the prior art got 9 results were. 10 spit out? Or what exactly happened? 10 Q. And how long does it take to punch the 11 A. I think if it was a product that we 11 name of a toxicant into the computer and get the 12 brought on to site and we were using, and someone who 12 prior art about that? 13 was using it had issues with it -- and I'm talking 13 A. Well, sometimes it depends, but it does 14 generically here -- one of the first things you do is 14 not take long to find a chemical. 15 go back to the producer of that product; and you ask 15 Q. Like less than a minute? Two minutes? 16 the producer nowadays, of course, a producer of any 16 A. Possibly. 17 kind of product has to supply you with the material 17 Q. What is, say, the top five most studied 18 safety data sheet which should include whatever they 18 toxicants at Haskell Labs? 19 know about a product; and you would check that. 19 A. Oh, I can't even answer that. I have no 20 Many times, I called toxicologists at the 20 idea. 21 company, where a product -- who made the product. 21 Q. Would you say that asbestos is one of the 22 They may have additional information. There are many 22 most studied toxicants at Haskell Labs? 23 old studies in -- even in the Haskell records from 23 A. Haskell did not study asbestos per se. It 24 companies who provided us with their own reports for 24 was not a product of DuPont. 25 products that we used. 25 Q. Well, okay. Here's what we'll do. I will Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 11 (Pages 37 to 40) 37 39 1 forward you a list of products by DuPont that were 1 arise in DuPont plants outside the United States. 2 produced to me in your document production, and we 2 Q. How about like Argentina, for example? 3 can just talk about those specific products later on; 3 A. That would certainly be possible if there 4 is that fair? 4 was an issue that they wanted to have addressed. 5 A. I'm not sure -- what kinds of chemicals 5 Q. Right. So if there was a complaint, no 6 are you referring to? 6 matter where it was, even if it was say like 7 Q. Yeah. I just want to kind of move on. 7 Argentina, for example, or France I think you said 8 But all right. 8 earlier, it would conduct the research as if it were 9 So what stands out in your mind as the 9 coming from a U.S. plant? 10 most studied toxicants at Haskell Labs for DuPont? 10 A. Well, it may or may not be conducting 11 A. I think it depends on the timeframe. The 11 research. If there was a complaint or a question and 12 things that were most studied while I was there were 12 it was on a product of DuPont's, then we might go 13 generally the pesticides; however, I would say that 13 back to our own records to determine what kind of 14 many of the older chemicals that DuPont made -- were 14 data we had. 15 certainly if DuPont was producing them, they had a 15 If a plant somewhere else was starting to 16 large database on those things. 16 produce a chemical, we probably, long before you ever 17 DuPont goes way back in terms of its 17 start chemical production on a large scale, would 18 chemicals; so it would have a rather large database 18 have done the toxicology studies on it. 19 on things like -- I mean, I can just start naming 19 Q. Because no matter where -- first, are 20 things like aniline, because they made aniline; maybe 20 there any other labs other than Haskell Labs that 21 cyanide, because they made cyanide. 21 studied the health effects of its products for the 22 Q. How about lanate? Does that ring a bell? 22 DuPont Company? 23 A. Lanate was one of them. 23 A. Not for DuPont. Other companies have had 24 Q. Okay. 24 their own toxicology laboratories, and do the studies 25 A. I wouldn't say that was one of the biggest 25 for their products; and there are many laboratories 38 40 1 things. It might have been in a particular 1 around the world, really, that do toxicology studies 2 timeframe. 2 for other companies and for -- even for 3 Q. What was the active component in lanate? 3 pharmaceutical companies. 4 A. I do not know. 4 Q. Okay. And so before DuPont launches its 5 Q. So have you ever visited any of the 5 plants in Texas or outside of the United States, it 6 plants? 6 studies the chemicals that are used in the 7 A. Any of DuPont's plants? 7 processing? 8 Q. The DuPont plants in Texas? 8 A. If the chemicals are the DuPont products; 9 A. No, I've not been to any in Texas. 9 in other words, if we're going to make chemical X and 10 Q. Okay. Have you visited any DuPont plants 10 someone invents chemical X, and they think it's going 11 anywhere? 11 to be good for something, the laboratory would start 12 A. Yes. 12 to do some studies. 13 Q. Which ones? 13 If the laboratory found that chemical X 14 A. Well, I've been to the Chambers Works 14 was highly toxic and maybe would not be a good fit 15 facility in New Jersey; I've been to the Spruance 15 for what they thought they were going to use it for, 16 plant in Richmond, Virginia; I've been to a plant 16 then it never got any further than a few short 17 site that we purchased in France. I've been to a 17 studies. If -- 18 plant site that we purchased that's down in 18 Q. So - 19 Mississippi. 19 A. -- if the product looked good, we did more 20 Q. Okay. And these plants you're talking 20 studies before they ever would build the plant to 21 about, is it standard DuPont procedure to field 21 make the product. 22 complaints about chemicals from all the plants no 22 Q. And so was the Haskell Labs that had the 23 matter where they are at Haskell Labs? Or just the 23 last say? Or somebody else in DuPont that had the 24 ones inside the United States? 24 last say as to whether something was to hazardous to 25 A. Oh, we also dealt with issues that might 25 be produced or put into operation? Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 12 (Pages 41 to 44' 41 43 1 A. I'm not sure who I would say had the last 1 Q. And is that the policy of DuPont 2 say; but Haskell could be very influential. And I 2 throughout the DuPont Company, no matter where the 3 certainly saw that happen that a chemical got dropped 3 may be? 4 because of the -- what we were seeing in the studies. 4 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 5 Q. Okay. So I'm trying to -- you -- hold on 5 THE WITNESS: I think that it's good 6 a second. 6 advice. It obviously puts a qualifier on there to 7 MR. MADEKSHO: Okay. Actually, Larry? 7 say "where possible." 8 MR. COTTEN: Yes. 8 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 9 MR. MADEKSHO: Hey, listen, I'm not sure 9 Q. Now, Dr. Stadler, I appreciate your 10 how many more questions I have. Do you mind if we 10 attempt to answer my questions; but to be fair to me, 11 take a quick recess, and let me look at my notes and 11 you're DuPont's representative today; you understand 12 see what all I have left? 12 that, correct? 13 MR. COTTEN: Sure. 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. MADEKSHO: Okay. Let's take 10 14 Q. I would like an answer yes or no. 15 minutes, let everybody stretch. 15 Is it DuPont's company-wide policy to use 16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the recor d. 16 alternates to carcinogens, where possible? 17 The time on the video screen is 11:03 and 8 seconds. 17 A. That would be correct. 18 You're clear. 18 Q. And that goes for all DuPont companies, no 19 (Recess.) 19 matter where they are, correct? 20 MR. COTTEN: What we would like is a copy 20 A. There's only one DuPont Company. I think 21 and an E-tran. 21 there are many sites. 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the 22 Q. I'm sorry. All of those -- all of those 23 record. The time on the video screen is 11:25 and 43 23 plants under DuPont, no matter where they may be, 24 seconds. 24 correct? 25 Please continue. 25 A. Yes. 42 44 1 MR. MADEKSHO: Okay. 1 Q. And I would like to now refer to what is 2 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 2 number 5 in the materials that I forwarded to the 3 Q. Dr. Stadler, we're back after a short 3 court reporter. Please let me know when you have 4 break. I would like to draw your attention to number 4 that in front of you. 5 29 in the documents that I have forwarded to the 5 (A document was marked for 6 court reporting service, please. Let me know when 6 identification as 7 you have that in front of you. 7 Exhibit No. 2.) 8 (A document was marked for 8 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 9 identification as 9 Q. Dr. Stadler, do you see in front of you a 10 Exhibit No. 1.) 10 document entitled Toxic Substances Control Act dated 11 MR. MADEKSHO: Doctor, would you pleas 5 11 November 11, 1983. 12 turn to -- I think the pages may be backwards, but 12 A. Yes. 13 would you turn to the page Bates stamped DuPont 13 Q. And it is Bates-stamped DuPont at the 14 0397786. 14 bottom. Is this a DuPont document? 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. I am at that page. 15 A. I don't really know. It does have an 16 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 16 employee relations department, Sabine River Works; s 17 Q. And the first sentence of the second to 17 I would assume that it is a DuPont document, though 18 the last paragraph reads -- correctly -- in addition, 18 DuPont's name does not appear on it. 19 Haskell advises that we should use alternates to 19 Q. Well, it does say DuPont supports the 20 carcinogens, where possible; is that a correct 20 philosophy embodied in this regulation, and the 21 reading? 21 company believes it will provide industry a means of 22 A. That's what it says, yes. 22 identifying previously unknown chemical hazards, doe 23 Q. And this is indeed a statement made by 23 it not? 24 DuPont on DuPont letterhead, correct? 24 A. Where are you reading that? 25 A. That's correct. 25 Q. It's the last sentence in the first Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 13 (Pages 45 to 48' 45 47 1 paragraph. 1 employees were treated differently. 2 A. Okay. 2 Q. Did Haskell Labs field research matters 3 Q. And then it also states on November 21, 3 involving complaints from DuPont's companies all ove 4 1983, DuPont will implement a company-wide system o 4 the world? 5 record and retain allegations that chemical 5 A. Sometimes Haskell dealt with parts of the 6 substances, products, or processes cause significant 6 company in different parts of the world. I would say 7 adverse health or environmental effects; is that 7 that -- certainly at the time I left the company, 8 correct? 8 there were toxicologists in Europe, for instance, 9 A. Yes. 9 that might deal with the information; but generally, 10 Q. And DuPont has produced this to the 10 if someone had a question, it wasn't usually 11 plaintiffs in this case. 11 determined where the question was coming from; 12 Now, is that enough for you to agree with 12 someone just called the laboratory and tried to get 13 me that this is a DuPont document? 13 the information. 14 A. Yes. 14 Q. Thank you. And did Haskell or DuPont have 15 Q. Thank you. I wasn't trying to be trick 15 toxicologists in Latin America as well? 16 you or anything. 16 A. No specific person located in Latin 17 A. No. I was just really looking for DuPont 17 America, no. 18 at the top of the page. 18 Q. Why not? 19 Q. Right. Right. 19 A. In general, it was easier to deal with 20 Now, this document that is sent to the 20 centralizing the toxicology laboratory. Now, there 21 employee relations department by DuPont does indeed 21 were safety people, and there were people perhaps 22 state, does it not, DuPont's program required by new 22 centralized in a particular country where DuPont 23 EPA regulations amounts to a formalization and 23 might have offices who would be the person who woul 24 extension of the company's existing practice of 24 probably contact the laboratory. 25 carefully evaluating any complaints; is that correct? 25 Q. Okay. So when you mean centralizing, you 46 48 1 A. That's correct. 1 mean, listen, it is better -- instead of setting up 2 Q. Now, when it says that TSCA implementation 2 an independent lab over there in Latin America, use 3 program just amounts to a formalization, what do they 3 Haskell, somebody from that place in Latin America 4 mean by that? 4 will contact us, and we'll take care of it? 5 A. That in general DuPont was already doing 5 A. That's right. 6 this, and the TSCA regulation now mandates that they 6 Q. I just don't want it to appear, if it is 7 do this. 7 not true, that DuPont ignores safety concerns in 8 Q. So in other words, any complaint brought 8 other parts of the world simply because they're not 9 to DuPont's attention anywhere in the DuPont Compan y, 9 in America. 10 wherever they may be, was forwarded up to Haskell 10 That's not the case, is it? 11 Labs? 11 A. That is not the case. 12 A. I don't think that Haskell necessarily got 12 Q. Now, did DuPont have the policy before 13 involved in all complaints. 13 TSCA to report complaints involving substantial risk 14 Q. When would Haskell get involved? 14 to health or environment to the EPA? 15 A. If there was a question about a complaint, 15 A. Well, the EPA was never really started 16 for instance, if someone were to say, I think that 16 before 1970. 17 breathing this chemical, the offgasing may be giving 17 Q. Right. So that's about 13 or 14 years 18 me a rash or be causing some other health effect, the 18 we're talking about? 19 person to whom that individual would have complaine 19 A. 13 or 14 years from? 20 might call Haskell to find out whether we had 20 Q. Prior to TSCA? 21 information that would say, yes, that is a symptom 21 A. Yes. 22 that could be associated with that chemical. 22 Q. So did DuPont before -- because TSCA was 23 Q. So did DuPont treat its employees 23 federal law saying, listen, if you have a complaint 24 different in different parts of the world? 24 involving a substantial risk to health or 25 A. I really can't speak to whether or not 25 environment, you've got to look into it and you've Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 14 (Pages 49 to 52) 49 51 1 got to report to the EPA; do you understand that? 1 employees; and I know that by the middle of that 2 A. Yes. 2 century, there was a medical doctor providing health 3 Q. In fact, within 15 working days, you got 3 care to the employees of DuPont; so in the mid-1840s 4 to report it to the EPA, right? 4 1850s. 5 A. That's correct. 5 And then there was a medical department 6 Q. So this formalization of TSCA, did that 6 formally established at DuPont in 1915; and after 7 exist -- did DuPont report substantial risk to health 7 that time, they began to hire occupational health 8 or the environment to the EPA prior to TSCA? 8 physicians for plants that had really large numbers 9 A. Nothing quite like they do now under the 9 of employees. Not every plant site had their own 10 AD notification process, it was not reported to EPA 10 physician; but some of them did. 11 specifically. 11 Q. We're talking about now well over 200 12 Q. Now, at what point did -- first of all, 12 years that DuPont has had doctors on site at their 13 did Haskell Labs have a hand in monitoring safety at 13 plants; correct? 14 the plants? 14 A. Yes. I'm not sure that in the early 1800s 15 A. Not generally. Haskell was much more of a 15 the doctor was right there on site, but was certainly 16 health effects research organization and laboratory. 16 available to the employees. 17 Each plant had their own safety group, 17 Q. Right. We understand each other, Doctor. 18 safety people, who were in charge of issues; and then 18 Now, where do the doctors on site today at 19 we at Haskell sort of were a resource for those 19 these plants around the world come from? How are 20 safety individuals. 20 they selected or chosen? 21 Q. Now, when we talk about monitoring safety 21 A. Well, I think that today there are not 22 at the plant level, would you agree with me that 22 that many that are actually on site. I think that 23 there are certain tasks that can be handled by 23 most of the time, the medical doctors that serve the 24 non-specialists who can be trained; and then there 24 plant sites are in private practice, and they will do 25 are other health monitoring tasks that require a 25 some work with DuPont. 50 52 1 trained specialist such as what would be found at 1 Back years ago, when they had MDs at the 2 Haskell Labs? 2 plant sites, they were primarily occupational health 3 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 3 physicians. In other words, people with special 4 THE WITNESS: I think you might have -- 4 training in occupational diseases. 5 certainly we know there were plants who had 5 Q. And did they receive that training at 6 industrial hygiene people. They were specially 6 Haskell Labs or elsewhere? 7 trained people. 7 A. No. They would have received that 8 There were plants for periods of time in 8 training in medical schools or at other graduate 9 the DuPont history, many of the plants, actually had 9 schools around the country. 10 medical doctors on site. They had -- they did 10 Q. And what is the relationship that these 11 examinations, that kind of thing, right at the plant 11 doctors have with Haskell Labs and DuPont as an 12 site. 12 organization today? 13 In certain instances, there were safety 13 A. As an organization today, there is no 14 people, though the safety people, many of them, wer e 14 direct relationship. There was a time when medical 15 folks who were trained in a career at DuPont on 15 doctors came and served at Haskell Laboratory for a 16 safety matters without a formal education of some 16 period of time and then went back out to plant sites. 17 kind that they brought to DuPont. 17 I know when I first worked at Haskell, we 18 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 18 had probably three or four medical doctors who 19 Q. All right. I think that pretty much -- 19 actually answered the hot lines, talked to people who 20 that's a pretty fair answer. 20 were concerned; and these were primarily people from 21 What about these doctors on site? When 21 the general public who had access to the phone number 22 did DuPont start having doctors on site at their 22 to call if they were worried about a particular 23 plants? 23 product of DuPont's. They could call and get 24 A. Well, I think that even back in 1802, 24 information. 25 E.I. du Pont had his own physician treat the 25 So these medical doctors were working at Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 15 (Pages 53 to 56) 53 55 1 Haskell for some period of time. 1 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 2 Q. Fielding questions from not only the 2 Q. This is indeed a memorandum from Dr. John 3 plants but the public as well, apparently? 3 Zapp to Edward Radford, Junior, dated December 19 4 A. That's right. 4 1955; correct? 5 Q. Wow, pretty cool. 5 A. I think it is the other way around. It 6 Now, at what point did DuPont begin 6 was from Edward Radford to Dr. Zapp. 7 conducting asbestos-related testing, lung testing of 7 Q. Did I get confused? I'm sorry. Thank you 8 its employees? 8 for correcting me, Dr. Stadler. 9 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 9 Now, and this is indeed a DuPont document. 10 THE WITNESS: Well, I think you may be 10 You do not dispute that, correct? 11 talking about the medical kinds of testing; is this 11 A. Well, I know that Dr. Zapp was the 12 what you are referring to? 12 director of Haskell Laboratory. I'm not really sure 13 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 13 who Edward Radford is. 14 Q. Yes, ma'am. 14 Q. Now, this pertains to pulmonary function 15 A. I think that, for one thing, DuPont was 15 testing, correct? 16 conducting annual physicals on all of its employees 16 A. Yes. 17 from, you know, maybe the mid 1920s onward. I'm no t 17 Q. And it's -- to be fair, it states 18 sure the exact date. They had this annual physical; 18 pulmonary function tests for possible in-plant use, 19 and they were doing chest x-rays on people who were 19 correct? 20 working with hazardous chemicals; so it was not tied 20 A. That's correct. 21 to asbestos in any way. 21 Q. And will you be so kind, Doctor, as to 22 But DuPont was providing this annual 22 turn to page 3 of this document, the last paragraph, 23 physical for its employees and also the annual chest 23 starting, briefly summarizing? 24 x-ray. 24 Let me know when you're there. 25 Q. In the 1920s? 25 A. Yes, I'm there. 54 56 1 A. I'm not sure the exact starting date, but 1 Q. It does correctly read, briefly 2 it went back to somewhere around that time when they 2 summarizing, the tests are of two main types. Those 3 started the annual physical. 3 requiring a minimal amount of training for the 4 As I said, they started the medical 4 supervisor and those carried out by trained Haskell 5 department at DuPont in 1915; and I'm not sure when 5 personnel? 6 they formalized the annual physical, but I know it 6 A. Yes. 7 was sometime in that early timeframe, because DuPon 7 Q. Later on, it states, but it should be 8 was handling some very toxic chemicals; and they 8 emphasized that those tests are much more sensitive 9 wanted to follow the health of the workers way back 9 and can be interpreted more directly in terms of lung 10 then. 10 changes. 11 MR. MADEKSHO: Dennis, could we please p ut 11 Did I correctly read that? 12 number 12 in the view of the witness? 12 A. That's correct. 13 (A document was marked for 13 Q. Now, to be fair, Dr. Stadler, this may be 14 identification as 14 the first time you've seen this document, correct? 15 Exhibit No. 3.) 15 A. Yes. This is not familiar to me. I may 16 MR. COTTEN: What I was going to say, 16 have seen it, but certainly not recently. 17 Chris, is I haven't seen the documents you are 17 Q. This -- is this new information to you 18 presenting to the witness. So if you don't mind, I 18 that the Haskell personnel were actually involved in 19 would like to take just a moment before she sees the 19 the more sensitive testing of in-plant employees, or 20 document to familiarize myself with them? 20 these trained Haskell personnel, if not directly at 21 MR. MADEKSHO: Larry, I don't mind that at 21 Haskell Labs? 22 all. 22 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 23 MR. COTTEN: Thank you. 23 THE WITNESS: I'm not really sure at this 24 THE WITNESS: Okay. I have the document 24 point that they were in any way testing the general 25 in front of me. 25 population of DuPont employees. I think they were Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 16 (Pages 57 to 60) 57 59 1 really working on trying to determine whether or not 1 to find out from various experts what might be good 2 this pulmonary function test would be something you 2 equipment to use for that purpose. 3 could use on employees. 3 Q. So in 1965, it began looking at equipment 4 I'm somewhat familiar with kind of the old 4 that could be used at their plants in Texas, for 5 pulmonary function testing systems; and they were 5 example? 6 very cumbersome and very difficult to make availabl 6 A. At their plants anywhere that could become 7 at any place other than, say, a research laboratory. 7 part of the normal yearly medical exam, that's 8 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 8 correct. 9 Q. And I appreciate that response, Doctor. 9 Q. Anywhere in the world, in fact? 10 Perhaps it was a poorly phrased question; 10 A. I would imagine anywhere in the world, 11 but it was more to the effect of, is it new 11 because I know that they gave physicals to their 12 information that Haskell Labs is involved in the more 12 employees all around the world. 13 sensitive aspects of its in-plant employees medical 13 Q. And the physicals given to their 14 monitoring? 14 employees, what role did Haskell play in those 15 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 15 physicals? 16 THE WITNESS: I think Haskell would have 16 A. Haskell did not play a role other than the 17 been in the position of giving advice to the plants 17 people who worked at Haskell had physicals also; but 18 as to what might be good kind of testing to use. 18 that was much more of a medical department -- it fell 19 I know certainly they hired Dr. Stopps, 19 under their control. 20 who was a physiologist and who was an expert in tha t 20 MR. COTTEN: Chris? 21 area later. I'm not sure when he started working 21 MR. MADEKSHO: Yes. 22 there. But he was working there in the mid-'60s. 22 MR. COTTEN: We're needing to change the 23 And this memo is 1955. And I'm not sure I know who 23 tape. 24 Mr. Radford is. 24 MR. MADEKSHO: Sure, Larry. How long d 25 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 25 need? Five minutes? 58 60 1 Q. As far as that position of counseling and 1 MR. COTTEN: 3 minutes. 2 advising, is that for DuPont plants wherever they may 2 MR. MADEKSHO: Got it. I'm here. 3 be? 3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Here marks the end o 4 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 4 videotape number 1, taken in the deposition of 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. In other words, if 5 Dr. Judith Stadler. Going off the record. The time 6 someone had a question about a methodology that they 6 on the video screen is 11:54 and 9 seconds. 7 might use in a medical testing like a pulmonary 7 You're clear. 8 function apparatus, they might call Haskell and say, 8 (Recess.) 9 would you test this out and see whether you think 9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Here begins videotap 10 it's useful and helpful; or you know, does it really 10 number 2, taken in the deposition of Dr. Judith 11 do what the manufacturers tells you that it is doing 11 Stadler. Going back on the record. The time on the 12 and that kind of thing. 12 video screen is 11:57 and 4 seconds. 13 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 13 Please continue. 14 Q. Now, when did pulmonary function testing 14 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 15 of DuPont's employees become mandatory in the Texas 15 Q. Dr. Stadler? 16 plant, if ever? 16 A. Yes. 17 A. I do not know when it became mandatory in 17 Q. Do you recall my last question or should 18 any of the plants. I do -- I am aware that even in 18 we have the court reporter read the question and 19 1965, they were still trying to find a piece of 19 answer back? 20 equipment or apparatus that would be something they 20 A. I would appreciate having it read back. 21 could use on site that they could find ways to 21 Thank you. 22 calibrate, and then they could be -- pulmonary 22 THE REPORTER: "Question: And the 23 function equipment could be used at individual plant 23 physicals given to their employees, what role did 24 sites. 24 Haskell play in those physicals?" 25 I know even in 1965, Dr. Stopps was trying 25 BY MR. MADEKSHO: Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 17 (Pages 61 to 64) 61 63 1 Q. Dr. Stadler, continuing from your 1 A. Well, it wasn't just pursuant to 2 response, is it true that Haskell Labs did not impart 2 complaints. It was products prior to marketing and, 3 their medical knowledge of potential causes of 3 if for some reason, there was some other product out 4 diseases and health effects that may arise under the 4 there that people at Haskell found might be important 5 physicals to those doctors who would be conducting 5 for testing, but typically it would still have been 6 the physicals on employees potentially exposed to 6 either a DuPont product or a waste stream product, 7 hazardous chemicals? 7 because those were the two things that Haskell was 8 MR. COTTEN: Object to form. 8 charged with doing, was ensuring the safety of 9 THE WITNESS: I think I followed that. 9 products DuPont made and the waste stream products. 10 Certainly the individuals at Haskell who 10 Q. I apologize. I may be a little slow. I'm 11 may have had special knowledge of disease could be 11 not sure I understood that. 12 consulted by the medical doctors if they had 12 A. Well, when you say, in response to a 13 knowledge that would help. 13 complaint, Haskell didn't just take up studying 14 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 14 materials that someone may have had a complaint 15 Q. And that goes for them -- the medical 15 about. The first order for Haskell would have been 16 doctors wherever they may be in the world? 16 if there was a complaint about a product that arose, 17 A. That's right. 17 and it was not a DuPont product, then they would have 18 Q. Dennis, would you please be so kind as to 18 consulted with the company that made the product. 19 mark as next in order plaintiffs number 24. Dr. 19 If there was a complaint that came from a 20 Stadler, let me know when you have that in front of 20 DuPont product -- for instance, as I said, the 21 you. 21 medical doctors fielded the hot line, let's say 22 (A document was marked for 22 someone came in and said, I'm having this reaction, 23 identification as 23 I'm using this product, if it was a kind of testing 24 Exhibit No. 4.) 24 that perhaps had not been done on the product that 25 THE WITNESS: I have the document now. 25 might better clarify if that product could cause that 62 64 1 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 1 particular problem, then Haskell could have made the 2 Q. Doctor, this first page pertains to 2 determination to initiate testing on that DuPont 3 DuPont's experience in toxicity hazard control 3 product and the kind of testing that someone might be 4 especially at Haskell Labs, correct? 4 concerned about. 5 A. Yes. That's what it says. 5 Q. You mean on that non-DuPont product? 6 Q. Would you please turn to the second page 6 A. No. No. I'm talking about -- let's say 7 of this exhibit, also marked as 17 up at the top? 7 someone called the hot line. Said I'm getting a rash 8 The first sentence of the second paragraph 8 and I'm using product Z. And it was a DuPont 9 reads, in some cases, Haskell findings can keep a 9 product. Then Haskell may have initiated testing on 10 product from being marketed by DuPont; is that a 10 DuPont's product Z because someone had called and 11 correct reading? 11 complained. 12 A. That's correct. 12 Or -- and in certain instances, it might 13 Q. Is that, in fact, true, that Haskell Labs 13 have been workers actually getting splashed with a 14 can tell DuPont, hey, listen this product is going to 14 chemical that caused a rash, for instance; or you 15 hurt people, don't sell it? 15 know, that kind of thing and maybe investigating that 16 A. Yes. And as I think I said before, I saw 16 from complaints, particularly at the plant site. 17 that happen. 17 Those kinds of things could occur. If it 18 Q. Doctor, I don't mean to dispute your prior 18 was not a DuPont product, then Haskell would have 19 testimony. Please don't take it as an imprecation 19 been the tester of last resort. 20 that I am. I just don't have it in front of me. I 20 In other words, there may have been some 21 want it to be clear. 21 things Haskell might have done like calling the 22 Now, Haskell -- you already stated that it 22 company, trying to find out from the producer whether 23 performed studies on chemicals either pursuant to 23 there were problems with the product, and had they 24 some complaints prior to marketing, but can it also 24 ever tested it; and that was also why we had the 25 do so on its own initiative? 25 library because you could go out and find if there Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 18 (Pages 65 to 68' 65 67 1 was published literature about something. 1 individuals and, you know, ultimately, first of all, 2 Q. All right. So there are instances in 2 try to find a supplier of the kind of product that 3 which DuPont may test a non-DuPont product, correct ? 3 they're looking for who does have the toxicology 4 A. There are a few instances. Usually, 4 information. 5 however, it might have been if it happened, it was 5 At least in my experience when I worked 6 done in conjunction with the producer of a product. 6 there, that's what would happen. If a company had no 7 We certainly did that in certain cases 7 information, we tried to encourage the people using 8 where we had the facilities or the capability to test 8 products to do business with companies who did have 9 something and the producer didn't; and then maybe we 9 information. 10 worked with that producer. They maybe paid for the 10 Q. And -- 11 testing but had it done at Haskell, something like 11 A. And tried -- the other thing is we tried 12 that. 12 to push them even from a toxicology standpoint as 13 Q. Was there -- I think that you've answered 13 to -- to try to encourage the company that was 14 my question, Doctor. Let me just clarify. 14 supplying something to us that had no information, we 15 Was there ever an instance in which upon 15 tried to encourage them to get that information. 16 receiving a complaint or knowledge of some sort of 16 Q. DuPont has been a member of the Industrial 17 potentially toxic product used by DuPont's employees 17 Hygiene Foundation since approximately 1936, correc 18 or somebody of the public who contacted via the hot 18 A. I'm not sure. I think it was around that 19 line, was there ever an instance in which DuPont 19 timeframe, yes. 20 contacted a manufacturer, the manufacturer was unabl 20 Q. And pursuant to that membership, and 21 to give information as to the hazards, had no history 21 also -- strike that. 22 of testing, and there was no history of testing in 22 When -- how long has DuPont been 23 the public literature in which DuPont did absolutely 23 participating or providing input to the American 24 nothing after that, just let the product continue 24 Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists? 25 being used at the work site without any further 25 A. Well, I think that's -- I would say 66 68 1 inquiries? 1 probably mid-1940s. Because DuPont had its own 2 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 2 toxicology laboratories, back when the ACGIH -- if I 3 THE WITNESS: I'm not really sure whether 3 can use the acronym or the initials -- when they 4 there was any instance specifically like that. 4 started setting threshold limit values for chemicals, 5 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 5 DuPont and other chemical company laboratories 6 Q. But that would certainly not be common? 6 provided them with data upon which they -- that they 7 A. Well, I think that for Haskell to take up 7 could use for setting up these threshold limit 8 testing of another company's product, they would not 8 values. 9 have done it without the knowledge of that other 9 So that goes back at least to the 1940s; 10 company. That other company would have probably 10 and, of course, Haskell Laboratory had data back to 11 agreed to the testing and participated in development 11 the mid-1980s. 12 of protocols and that kind of thing. 12 Q. So is that information available to 13 If the other company refused to have any 13 DuPont; DuPont made available in turn to ACGIH an 14 part in any kind of testing, I think that would have 14 IHF? 15 presented some problems for Haskell to go forward 15 A. They made it available when requested, 16 with testing someone else's product without their 16 yes. 17 permission. 17 Q. And were DuPont's exposure level limits -- 18 Q. And so if DuPont is made aware that its 18 I will use that term because I don't know if DuPont 19 workers are suffering injury from a chemical product 19 has any term different from PEL or TLV; you certain 20 and the chemical product manufacturer refuses to giv e 20 know what those mean, correct? 21 DuPont knowledge and refuses to test, what does 21 A. Yes, I know what they mean. 22 DuPont do? 22 Q. Were DuPont's exposure levels internally 23 A. I think the most likely thing that DuPont 23 ever different from the ACGIH or IHF proposed limit 24 did was stop buying that product from someone and/or 24 on exposure to certain chemicals, or fibers? 25 try to determine whether there was exposure of the 25 A. There were some. Initially when ACGIH Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 19 (Pages 69 to 72) 69 71 1 began to set up the threshold limit values, DuPont 1 business of making asbestos; and even though they 2 basically accepted all of their limit values. 2 knew, our people, certainly scientists within the 3 Quite a few years later, I would say in 3 company had heard of things like asbestosis, it had 4 the early '70s, DuPont had an internal committee that 4 always been associated with dusty trades, the 5 did essentially the same kind of thing, I think 5 asbestos industry, people who were asbestos miners o 6 because DuPont had a lot of chemicals that ACGIH 6 millers or asbestos textile workers. 7 never dealt with; and they wanted to set their own 7 All of the research about asbestosis and 8 levels; and in some instances, DuPont actually set 8 diseases related to it, all was coming out of the 9 internally levels that were lower than TLVs. 9 asbestos industry. 10 Q. For what substances or toxicants did it 10 So people knew about this, but it was 11 have internally lower levels than the ACGIH levels? 11 certainly not until 1964 when Dr. Stopps attended a 12 A. I can't really remember at this point in 12 meeting given by Dr. Selikoff in New York, and 13 time. 13 Dr. Selikoff had done some work on insulators and 14 Q. Fine, Doctor. 14 found that these insulators had asbestos-related 15 A. I know that -- well, for instance, I think 15 diseases. And at that point, Dr. Stopps came back 16 because we're talking about asbestos, DuPont set some 16 and reported on his trip and the research that was 17 internal limits lower than the TLVs in the 1960s, as 17 presented at that conference, and DuPont began to 18 it began to get information about asbestos. 18 look at the potential for people within their own 19 It was not satisfied with the five million 19 plants having been exposed to asbestos, because 20 particles per cubic foot level and set its own level 20 certainly it was used to insulate pipes and furnaces 21 within the construction division at a lower level. 21 and things like that within the chemical plants. 22 That's just one example because there were others, 22 Q. When you say the asbestos industry, what 23 and I just can't list them. 23 do you mean by that? 24 Q. And how did DuPont monitor to assure 24 A. Well, I think in general, the diseases of 25 compliance with those internal or external exposure 25 asbestos were associated with the asbestos industry: 70 72 1 levels? 1 The people that mined asbestos in the very dusty 2 A. Initially some of the monitoring was not 2 mines, that kind of situation, the people who milled 3 done by the company. Monitoring and industrial 3 it or ground it up; and then the people who used this 4 hygiene practices kind of developed over time. Some 4 raw asbestos to make it into products like insulation 5 of the first monitoring was actually done by the 5 or other types of products that contained the 6 governmental industrial hygienists as ACGIH would 6 asbestos. 7 tend to tell you that that was an organization of 7 So that was considered the place where 8 people who were really government people; and it 8 people were likely to have any -- enough high 9 wasn't until probably -- oh, I would say the 1960s 9 exposures to actually have gotten disease from 10 that industry began to have it own industrial 10 asbestos. 11 hygienists and began to try to develop means of 11 Q. Okay. So am I correct that you considered 12 monitoring. 12 the asbestos -- strike that. 13 So a lot of the monitoring that was done 13 Am I correct that DuPont considers a 14 were people coming in from government and doing some 14 member of the asbestos industry to be either a miner 15 of this monitoring. 15 of asbestos or a product manufacturer? 16 And then I think the companies began to 16 A. Or someone actually in the business of 17 say maybe we could get some of these people and hire 17 mining asbestos from the ground. 18 them ourselves. 18 Q. All right. And people who use asbestos 19 Q. And again, you just stated that DuPont 19 everywhere in their plants and refineries, they are 20 began to get information about asbestos hazards in 20 not members of the asbestos industry? 21 the 1960s? 21 A. They were not considered, in general, 22 A. That was really when DuPont became most 22 members of the asbestos industry. That's correct. 23 aware that there could be some health-related issues 23 And I think one of the reasons for that in 24 from asbestos within their own plants because DuPont 24 the overall was all the research that was being done 25 was a chemical industry; they were not in the 25 on textile -- asbestos textile mills, on the miners Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 20 (Pages 73 to 76) 73 75 1 and the millers. This is where you were seeing the 1 THE WITNESS: I would not say there's no 2 results that there was some kind of asbestos disease. 2 safe level of exposure. Certainly, even OSHA has 3 People who -- in fact, one of the biggest 3 come out with a level of exposure of -- today it 4 studies that was done on people who were insulators 4 stands at .1 milligrams per cubic centimeter. 5 was a study by Drinker in 1945 where they looked at 5 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 6 people in the Navy who were -- who were working on 6 Q. Are you aware, Doctor, that that is not a 7 ships; and they found that out of over a thousand 7 level of exposure that is safe, that people will 8 workers who were insulators there, that only three 8 still die if they're exposed at that level? 9 had evidence of asbestosis. 9 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 10 And so at that point, even though there 10 THE WITNESS: I think you could probably 11 were papers being written about asbestos textile 11 be exposed at even much higher levels and not die, 12 workers, the evidence seemed to be that people who 12 except everyone dies eventually. 13 were doing other jobs like insulating were not at 13 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 14 risk for any kind of disease. 14 Q. Everyone dies eventually, Doctor? 15 MR. MADEKSHO: Objection to the 15 A. I'm trying to say that I think that the 16 non-responsive portion. 16 level of disease from asbestos, they have shown is in 17 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 17 most instances highly dependent on the duration of 18 Q. Now, you know what a "chem-crew air suit" 18 exposure, the level of exposure; and when they set up 19 is? 19 something like a permissible exposure level, they're 20 A. No. 20 talking about something that they believe will be 21 Q. Well -- 21 protective of everyone if exposed eight hours a day 22 A. Just from the description, I have an idea 22 every day during their working life. 23 what that might mean. 23 Q. Have you been involved in any lobbying 24 Q. Are you familiar with the suits that are 24 concerning exposure limits in chemicals to the 25 air-fed and completely dependent upon oxygen supplied 25 federal government? 74 76 1 through the air in the tubes that seal off a person 1 A. No. 2 from any contact with outside air? 2 Q. Are you aware that exposure levels exist 3 A. Yes. 3 not to protect people from disease and death, but as 4 Q. And what is your name for that apparatus? 4 a balance between the existence of an economy 5 A. I would just call it some kind of 5 dependent upon those chemicals and the few human 6 self-contained breathing apparatus, and then the sui 6 beings who will die as a result of exposure at those 7 itself would be somewhat different. 7 levels? 8 Q. And how long has DuPont used this suit? 8 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 9 A. I really don't have any idea. 9 THE WITNESS: I'm not exactly sure what 10 Q. You are obviously aware of its existence? 10 the question is here. I believe that levels that are 11 A. Pardon? 11 set up are considered to be protective of health. I 12 Q. You are obviously aware of its existence? 12 would say that I certainly know that many have tried 13 A. Yes. 13 to keep levels from going so low that they cannot 14 Q. And given your knowledge, what is the 14 meet them or they find it difficult to do that. 15 earliest instance of its use according to you? 15 But I think that levels ultimately are set 16 A. I have no idea. 16 based on the health effects information. 17 Q. Okay. This would certainly be helpful in 17 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 18 preventing any exposure to asbestos, correct? 18 Q. And what is your opinion, given your 19 A. I think that is the kind of thing that is 19 knowledge of what you just told me, that is a level 20 now required for people who remove asbestos from 20 that will prevent mesothelioma? 21 buildings and that kind of thing. So certainly it is 21 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 22 very protective. 22 THE WITNESS: I really do not know. As 23 Q. It is required because we know there is no 23 far as I can tell from the literature, the level that 24 safe level of exposure, correct? 24 they have set now should be protective. I think that 25 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 25 in toxicology, we always talk about what they call Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 21 (Pages 77 to 80) 77 79 1 the one-hit model that you can never say that someone 1 jobs? 2 exposed to almost anything that's a carcinogen maybe 2 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 3 one time at some level might not develop cancer. 3 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of the 4 It is one of those things that you just 4 specifics of that. I think there probably are a few 5 perhaps cannot definitively say never. 5 instances in which this material is deemed to be the 6 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 6 only way and the only product that can be used for 7 Q. And what literature do you depend on when 7 certain things, but I do not know enough specifics. 8 you say that the literature supports the current EPA 8 I have been told, for instance, certain 9 PEL that will -- strike that. What literature do you 9 high-temperature gaskets cannot be made of other 10 refer to when you say that the current level set by 10 materials; things like that. 11 the EPA and OSHA are permissible exposure levels o f 11 But beyond that, I am not knowledgeable 12 asbestos will prevent disease in humans? 12 about the specifics of products that would be 13 A. I think the basic philosophy here is we're 13 considered something that you could not find a 14 setting -- of these organizations is that they are 14 substitute. 15 setting levels that will be protective. 15 MR. MADEKSHO: Objection to the 16 Q. Well -- 16 non-responsive portion. 17 A. And there's a lot of literature -- excuse 17 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 18 me -- but I think that each of these levels, OSHA 18 Q. Dr. Stadler, would it surprise you to know 19 documentation, whatever organization is putting out a 19 that in the last few go rounds with the asbestos 20 level has to support it with literature surveys; and 20 industry in the U.S., they no longer assert the 21 they always publish these surveys. 21 defense that it's safe at certain levels when they 22 They publish documents that review the 22 lobby the U.S. government? 23 appropriate studies that they used in setting levels; 23 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 24 and they try to use as much information as they have. 24 THE WITNESS: No. I'm not aware of that. 25 They may have things like, in this industry, we have 25 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 78 80 1 used this, at this, and there's been enough sampling 1 Q. Would it surprise you and change your 2 data, and no one has gotten sick in 25 years of use. 2 opinion that you have given in your testimony that 3 That kind of thing, where they have 3 you've given here today? 4 information on what people have been exposed to and 4 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 5 other places where maybe people have gotten sick and 5 THE WITNESS: No. It wouldn't change wha 6 they know what kinds of levels they were exposed to; 6 I said. 7 so all of these things are done based on extensive 7 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 8 literature surveys and knowledge. They're not just 8 Q. Even if the asbestos industry -- as you 9 pulled out of the air. 9 call them -- no longer believes that there is a safe 10 MR. MADEKSHO: Objection. Non-responsiv 3. 10 level below which mesothelioma -- the disease in 11 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 11 question in this case -- will not occur, that would 12 Q. Dr. Stadler, are you aware that many, many 12 not change your opinion as DuPont's spokesperson? 13 countries, in fact, the majority of countries with 13 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 14 whom we have trade treaties have completely banned 14 THE WITNESS: I think what I was referring 15 asbestos from being used or imported, are you not? 15 to is that there are levels set out there by the 16 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 16 government, and the government used data to set thos 17 THE WITNESS: I am aware that there are 17 levels, that they believe are the best levels to be 18 many places that have banned the use of asbestos, 18 set. 19 yes. 20 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 19 I also know that one of the best ways to 20 keep people from being exposed to it at all is to 21 Q. And are you also aware that the only 21 stop using it. 22 reason it's not banned in the U.S. is because time 22 And in many instances, it's easier to find 23 after time when we try to ban it, industry comes to 23 substitutes and not use it than it is to control 24 the U.S. government, pays lobbyists to say to the 24 something to levels like .1 milligram per cubic 25 American people, oh, we need it in order to keep 25 meter. Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 22 (Pages 81 to 84) 81 83 1 MR. MADEKSHO: Objection to the 1 MR. MADEKSHO: Okay. All right. Thank 2 non-responsive portion. Okay. 2 you. 3 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 3 MR. COTTEN: Thank you. 4 Q. Are you aware that DuPont has been a 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the recor< 5 member of the National Safety Council since at least 5 The time on the video screen is 12:32 and 36 seconds 6 1934? 6 (Whereupon, at 12:31 p.m., the deposition 7 A. I'm aware that DuPont is a member. I do 7 in the above-entitled matter was recessed, to 8 not know the date they first became a member. 8 reconvene at 1:30 p.m., this same day.) 9 Q. You have no documents or any reason to 9 10 dispute the documents that do indicate that DuPont 10 11 has been a member of the National Safety Council 11 12 since 1934? 12 13 A. I have no reason to dispute that. 13 14 Q. And you are aware that the asbestos 14 15 industry is tied into the members of the National 15 16 Safety Council, the Industrial Hygiene Foundation, 16 17 and the ACGIH that we've been talking about here th is 17 18 morning, correct? 18 19 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 19 20 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what you mean 20 21 by "tied in to." I think that probably there were 21 22 industrial hygienists that would have worked for som e 22 23 of the companies in the asbestos industry; some of 23 24 those companies may have been part of that safety 24 25 council. I do not know. 25 82 84 1 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 Q. And those are the same companies who have 2 (1:38 p.m.) 3 time and again opposed the ban of asbestos in the 3 Whereupon, 4 United States, in the United States governmental 4 JUDITH C. STADLER, Ph.D., 5 lobbying efforts against the American people? 5 the witness testifying at the time of recess, having 6 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 6 been previously duly sworn, was further examined an 7 THE WITNESS: Was that a question? 7 testified further as follows: 8 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 8 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL 9 Q. Yes, ma'am. Are you aware? 9 FOR PLAINTIFF (RESUMED) 10 A. I do not know. 10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the 11 Q. You don't know? Okay. If you don't know, 11 record. The time on the video screen is 13:39 and 15 12 you don't know. That's fine. 12 seconds. Please continue. 13 MR. MADEKSHO: Larry, do you mind if we 13 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 14 take a quick break? I'd like to sneak off to the 14 Q. Dr. Stadler? 15 men's room. 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. COTTEN: It would be fine to take a 16 Q. We're back from a short break, I hope you 17 break. 17 enjoyed your lunch. 18 MR. MADEKSHO: By the way, you all are at 18 A. I certainly did. 19 12:30 over there? 19 Q. Thank you. Now, who was it who advised -- 20 MR. COTTEN: Yes, we are. 20 who advised the DuPont plant people at DuPont of 21 MR. MADEKSHO: Let's do this. Let's take 21 preventative measures designed to protect workers 22 a quick lunch break and come back in -- I don't 22 from asbestos exposure? 23 know -- 45 to an hour? 23 A. That would most likely be engineering or 24 MR. COTTEN: That would be fine. 45 24 industrial hygiene personnel. 25 minutes. 25 Q. Okay. And obviously you're -- we are not Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 23 (Pages 85 to 88' 85 87 1 getting into an argument about who is most 1 at plant sites. 2 knowledgeable, because I believe -- and I don't want 2 Q. And is this like the case of what we were 3 to get into that side issue. I need to know an 3 talking about earlier, how there'd be folks who wouk 4 answer. And so if you are DuPont's representative 4 forward information and interact and work with the 5 today, if that is what you understand, then that is 5 central location of the department that was in 6 what it is; do you understand my statement? 6 Wilmington; is that correct? 7 A. I think so. 7 A. That's correct. A lot of times, the 8 Q. Okay. So could you please restate those 8 engineers, in particular centrally located engineers, 9 two entities within DuPont responsible for forwarding 9 would have been associated with construction of larg 10 dust preventive measures designed to protect workers 10 plants and drawing up plans, all those kinds of 11 from asbestos exposures? 11 things. 12 A. I believe that engineering, because they 12 You have much more in the way of sort of 13 would have the information on engineering controls, 13 maintenance engineers at the plants, dealing with 14 and industrial hygienists who may have information on 14 day-to-day operations. 15 other ways to control exposure. 15 Q. All right. So then it was either an 16 Q. Okay. And did engineering -- first of 16 engineer at the plant where asbestos is present 17 all -- strike that. 17 working with the engineering department centralized 18 Who is engineering? Is there an 18 in Wilmington, or Wilmington themselves being 19 engineering department within DuPont? Or is that a 19 involved; is that fair to say? 20 subset of Haskell Labs? Or could you please explain 20 A. Yes. 21 that? 21 Q. Okay. I think I understand. And these go 22 A. DuPont does have an engineering 22 for -- strike that. 23 department. At one time, it was very, very large. 23 This goes for all of DuPont's plants, 24 It was part of the construction division within 24 wherever they may be in the world, right? 25 DuPont. And they do have a whole department of 25 A. As far as I know, yes. 86 88 1 engineers who deal with engineering -- new facilities 1 Q. Now, what about this industrial hygiene 2 and building processes and plants. 2 department? Where is that located? 3 Q. All right. This engineering department, 3 A. There were people who were professionally 4 did it forward asbestos hazard knowledge to only some 4 trained industrial hygienists located on plant 5 plants where asbestos was used? Or all plants where 5 sites -- at least when I started with DuPont in the 6 asbestos was used? 6 1980s. I think back in the 1960s and when DuPont 7 A. I'm not sure what you mean by that. I 7 really became aware of the potential hazard from 8 would say that engineering worked with all of the 8 asbestos, I only know of one industrial hygienist 9 plants, and the plants and the engineering department 9 that was actually working for DuPont at that time. 10 together would have determined whether they were 10 It was a man by the name of Adrian Linch; 11 trying -- if part of the issue of what they were 11 but industrial hygiene kind of grew over time, and 12 trying to engineer into the plant was protection from 12 more and more plant sites had industrial hygienists 13 certain toxicants, asbestos being one. 13 located there. Just the overall profession of 14 Q. I'm sorry. I did not mean to cut you off, 14 industrial hygiene was very limited; and then it 15 Doctor. I thought you finished your answer. Do you 15 grew. 16 want to go ahead and finish? 16 Q. And is it centrally located also in 17 A. Asbestos being one of many, because the 17 Wilmington? 18 overall engineering of a plant had to do with many 18 A. Well, there is an aspect, I think, of the 19 things. 19 medical group that has some industrial hygienists 20 Q. Where is this engineering department 20 employed centrally. When I first started at Haskell, 21 located, physically? 21 the industrial hygiene, kind of the corporate entity 22 A. The engineering department per se is 22 of industrial hygiene, was at Haskell and they 23 centrally located at -- in Wilmington. However, 23 brought industrial hygienists in, they got some 24 members of the engineering department might have been 24 training there around DuPont-specific issues, and 25 located at each plant site. And there were engineers 25 then they went out to plant sites and worked at plant Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 24 (Pages 89 to 92) 89 91 1 sites. 1 A. At this point in time, I really can't say 2 Q. And I appreciate that very full response. 2 for sure. I just remember having conversations with 3 I don't want to get confused or confuse you either. 3 people who said they were at such and such a plant in 4 So if you don't mind, we'll just take this one at a 4 Europe, I can remember. But I can't really list 5 time. 5 other places. 6 So talking about just the IH department, 6 Q. That's fine. Then I won't go any further 7 outside of its contact at Haskell, first, I'm trying 7 with that. Suffice to say, though, that Haskell was 8 to figure out if it's the same as the engineering? 8 still for all locations in question the place where 9 Does that work the same way, like there's a central 9 the industrial hygienists either originated or later 10 location and they work with the IH folks at the 10 on the department consulted with the -- strike all 11 plants, or it is more of the central without the 11 that. 12 folks at the plants? Or how does that work? 12 Is it safe to say, though, that the 13 A. I'm sorry if I confused you, but I think 13 industrial hygienists originated out of Haskell, like 14 it's changed so much over time that it was different 14 when you got there, or they communicated with Haskel 15 when I retired from when I first started, and 15 as it became more of a separate entity later on? 16 different back in the 1960s. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Right. Because of the growth of the 17 Q. Okay. For all locations, right? 18 company? 18 A. That's correct. And after a while, it 19 A. That's correct. And the growth of 19 became located within the medical department and was 20 industrial hygiene as an actual job description. 20 removed from Haskell. 21 Q. Okay. I understand. And so what was it 21 Q. Okay. You anticipated my question. 22 like then in 1984 when you joined Haskell Labs -- 22 What -- how did it -- strike that. 23 strike that. Strike that question. 23 How did the industrial hygiene department 24 You know where I'm going, but I can ask it 24 look and operate in 2007 when you left? 25 a better way, Doctor, so as not to confuse you. 25 A. It was part of the -- it was kind of a 90 92 1 When you got to Haskell Labs in 1984, can 1 division called occupational health within the 2 you please describe the industrial hygiene centrally 2 medical division; and there were industrial 3 and/or as local representatives? 3 hygienists part of that. 4 A. Yes. The industrial hygiene department, 4 Q. And where was that located? 5 central location, was at Haskell. We actually had an 5 A. In downtown Wilmington. 6 industrial hygiene group there; and then there were 6 Q. Downtown Wilmington? And how did they 7 industrial hygienists at many of the various plant 7 communicate with the various plants all over the 8 sites. 8 world? 9 Q. Okay. 9 A. They communicated, I guess, by e-mail and 10 A. If the plant site was large, they were 10 by telephone, and certainly I knew of one individual 11 likely to have one or more industrial hygienists. If 11 who was a friend of mine who traveled perhaps three 12 it was a small plant, then they usually called 12 out of four weeks each month to various locations 13 Haskell and asked for the services of an industrial 13 around the world. 14 hygienist; and that's how Haskell got involved. 14 Q. Okay. And so it continued -- strike that. 15 In other words, they were sort of the 15 So the IH department continued its 16 group of hygienists that dealt with a lot of 16 advisory role as to the different DuPont plants all 17 different plants around the country that were perhap 17 over the world? 18 not big enough to really have someone full time. 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. What about the plants outside the country? 19 Q. Now, when the IH department kind of split 20 A. I'm not really aware of whether they had 20 off from Haskell, what was the continuing 21 industrial hygienists on site in plants in other 21 relationship with Haskell? 22 places. I do know that some of our industrial 22 A. Well, there was still interaction with 23 hygienists in Haskell did travel to plants outside 23 Haskell relative to knowledge about health effects 24 the country. 24 and that kind of thing. 25 Q. Like which countries? 25 Q. Okay. Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 25 (Pages 93 to 96) 93 95 1 A. It was not any kind of formal 1 Q. But you're familiar then obviously with 2 relationship, but rather Haskell being a source of 2 Merriweather Price. I don't need to talk to you 3 information for them. 3 about that? 4 Q. Kind of like a chain of command, like if 4 A. Correct. 5 the folks in the field have a question, they ask 5 Q. You are familiar with the Queen's 6 engineering or IH; and if IH needed to consult just 6 Inspectorate of Factories and Textile Mills? 7 like their folks in the field did, they would come to 7 A. In Great Britain? 8 you all? 8 Q. Yes, ma'am. 9 A. Yes. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. I think I understand. I think it's 10 Q. Is that fair to say? 11 actually pretty clear now. I appreciate that. 11 A. Yes. 12 Now, I would like to go over the 12 Q. Okay. All right. And you're familiar 13 historical knowledge of DuPont relating to asbestos 13 with the articles of and relating to industrial dust 14 hazards. You understand what I mean by that, 14 hazards in the National Safety Council's transactions 15 Dr. Stadler? 15 for the 1930s? 16 A. I have a general idea, yes. 16 A. I'm not familiar with that one. 17 Q. All right. So basically, my questions are 17 Q. You're not? Okay. Well, then, I guess 18 going to be about, you know, how far back did DuPonIt 18 those are something that we can talk about. 19 know asbestos is harmful, et cetera. 19 MR. MADEKSHO: Dennis, would you please 20 You understand? 20 for me publish to the witness my number 21. 21 A. Okay. 21 (A document was marked for 22 Q. And you know, before I begin that line of 22 identification as 23 questioning, though, what is your understanding as to 23 Exhibit No. 5.) 24 when DuPont was first made aware that asbestos dust 24 MR. MADEKSHO: Larry, did you want to take 25 was harmful to workers exposed to it, regardless of 25 a look at that first? 94 96 1 whether they were actual members of what DuPont 1 MR. COTTEN: Yeah. I'm going to look at 2 believes is the asbestos industry or otherwise? 2 it. I just wanted to mention to you that the 3 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 3 witness's last name is Stadler. 4 THE WITNESS: It's very difficult for me 4 MR. MADEKSHO: Oh, my gosh, Doctor, I 5 to pinpoint a time. I think that it's very important 5 apologize. I've been mispronouncing your name almos 6 to say that certainly many individuals within the 6 the entire deposition. I apologize. 7 scientific community at Haskell who had been traine d7 THE WITNESS: That's all right. 8 in either medical schools or graduate schools knew 8 MR. MADEKSHO: You wouldn't imagine how 9 about health hazards of asbestos and knew that there 9 many folks mispronounce my name. 10 were studies in the literature about this. 10 Do you want to give my last name a shot, 11 Some of the literature probably going back 11 Dr. Stadler? 12 to the 1930s, or even prior to that. 12 (Laughter.) 13 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 13 THE WITNESS: No. I think I'll pass. 14 Q. All right. Okay. Then it's fair to say 14 MR. MADEKSHO: Right. 15 that the time period would be approximately the 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. I have the document. 16 1930s? 16 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 17 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 17 Q. Okay. Larry has had a chance to look at 18 THE WITNESS: I would say that probably 18 that? 19 the first really good study that came out looking at 19 MR. COTTEN: Yes. 20 textile -- asbestos textile workers was in 1930. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 Before that, there were spotty reports in 21 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 22 the literature, that kind of thing. 22 Q. Obviously, you know, what I'm going to be 23 Then after that, there were studies here 23 referring to is DuPont's membership, the executive 24 and there, some better than others. 24 committee of the National Safety Council, right? 25 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 25 A. Okay. Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 26 (Pages 97 to 100) 97 99 1 Q. You see that on the first chapter pages, 1 of vacuums and wet-down procedures as a means of 2 down the right-hand side, Harold Miner, 2 protecting workers in its plants from asbestos 3 E.I. du Pont de Nemours under executive committee? 3 exposures all over the world. 4 A. I see executive committee. It is very 4 Do you know when they started using those 5 wavy. I'm trying to see. 5 methods? 6 Q. Third to the last -- 6 A. I do not know the specifics in time of 7 A. I see it. I see it. Yes. 7 when they would have used those kinds of methods for 8 Q. Do you know who Mr. Harold Miner was? 8 asbestos. I know they were using a lot of procedures 9 A. No. I have no idea. 9 to control for dust in general in DuPont's plants all 10 Q. Okay. And to be fair, where have you 10 over the world for a long, long time. Wet-down 11 acquired your information -- which is admittedly very 11 methods were very common to control dust. 12 vast -- about DuPont's knowledge of asbestos hazards ? 12 DuPont's dust control programs went way, 13 Where have you acquired that information? 13 way back into the early days of DuPont. 14 A. I've acquired the information from a lot 14 Q. Such as what year are we talking? What 15 of selected documents that came from DuPont. I've 15 decade? 16 concentrated in the area of the -- between 1965 and 16 A. Well, during the 1800s, DuPont started out 17 '70 as requested in the -- I think for today, for 17 as a maker of black powder, which was explosive. 18 this deposition. And I looked at these documents 18 Q. I'm aware of that. Sure. 19 that DuPont has on record related to asbestos and 19 A. And very fine dust particles in the air 20 asbestos issues. 20 could be very, very hazardous and cause explosions; 21 Q. All right. And did you look yourself or 21 and so for the company, it did not take them very 22 did somebody look for you? 22 long to realize they were going to have to put 23 A. Oh, I reviewed documents myself. I was 23 procedures in place to make sure there was not a lot 24 presented with some. And then the documents were 24 of dust in the atmosphere when making such things as 25 pretty much opened up to me, and I could have access 25 dynamite or black powder. 98 100 1 to others or request others as I went through 1 And controlling dust was one of the 2 documents. 2 biggest safety things they did early on to prevent 3 Q. Where is this place at which the documents 3 explosions. 4 were made available? 4 And then as time went on, the whole 5 A. The documents are housed in downtown 5 concept of controlling dust in the atmosphere 6 Wilmington. Some were brought to me or sent to me. 6 continued for DuPont, even when they kind of made th 7 And I'm not sure where they were housed; but they 7 switch from explosives into chemicals, because 8 were copied and sent. 8 chemicals could not only become contaminated with 9 Q. And those documents that are housed in 9 dust and you didn't want that in any of your chemical 10 downtown Wilmington, are they in a library somewhere 10 processes, but you also, I mean, knew that breathing 11 or is there a computer terminal? 11 the dust could be hazardous. 12 A. I'm sure there's some storage place. When 12 So DuPont was very big on dust control; 13 I was presented with the opportunity to go through 13 and if I -- I can't give you a specific date, but I 14 documents, they were put into a conference room of 14 can say that it definitely went back to the years of 15 boxes and I went through them. 15 the explosives business. 16 Q. Okay. And this document is, however, new 16 Q. So I'll object to the non-responsive 17 to you today? 17 portion. 18 A. Yes. It's not one that I have reviewed. 18 I think at the end, there was an attempt 19 Q. All right. Well, I'll tell you, Doctor, 19 to answer. 20 that it's not inconsistent with your testimony that, 20 How about if I ask it this way: When did 21 you know, you knew of -- or that DuPont knew of the 21 DuPont start using dust preventative measures, like 22 hazards in the '30s. Okay. That's not the purposes 22 wetting down processes and using vacuums to protect 23 of me presenting this document. 23 from asbestos dust? 24 I do, however, want to visit with you 24 A. I do not know specifically. I know they 25 about when DuPont started actually employing the use 25 were definitely doing it in the 1960s. And I know Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 27 (Pages 101 to 104) 101 103 1 that I have looked at safety manuals going way back 1 things they found very quickly was the impinger 2 like to 1956. They were using dust control measures 2 method for counting total dust wasn't telling them 3 back then. I think that it's important to note that 3 very much about the actual presence of asbestos; and 4 they were trying to keep down dust long before 4 during the late '60s, DuPont started to work with 5 asbestos became an issue for them. 5 Jeremiah Lynch from the Health Service who had 6 Q. In order to protect from the harm, you 6 published articles about sampling for asbestos; and 7 have to know the harm; DuPont is aware of that; 7 they began to adopt methods that I think they were 8 correct? 8 using in Europe and that Jeremiah Lynch had published 9 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 9 articles and said this is the best sampling method to 10 THE WITNESS: I think you can indirectly 10 use. 11 be preventing harm by controlling for a lot of other 11 It was sort of brand-new, but it was a new 12 reasons and accomplishing that, yes. 12 filter cassette methodology where you could do 13 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 13 personal sampling of individuals. 14 Q. I don't dispute that, Doctor. 14 So it was in -- oh, maybe about 1967, '68, 15 I am simply stating something that has 15 DuPont started using this method to determine whether 16 been -- that is kind of a staple of IH, which 16 there was asbestos in the breathing zone of workers 17 basically, you know, in what art you exercise your 17 at their plant sites. 18 craft, you have to know what the harm is before you 18 And they started out with insulators and 19 can be fully preventative of harms resulting from the 19 pipe cutters to determine whether or not they had 20 craft. 20 exposure. 21 Are you aware of that principle? 21 And they did a side-by-side, let's compare 22 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 22 the old method with a new method; and actually were 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. And I think what I'm 23 kind of ahead of the curve even before the TLV 24 trying to get at is the measures were for dust in 24 committee adopted this new method. 25 general; and, in fact, asbestos levels that were set 25 MR. MADEKSHO: I object to the 102 104 1 for many years, the safe levels of exposure, were 1 non-responsive portion. 2 really under the more general dusts in general; so 2 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 3 you would have been controlling for dust which 3 Q. And this document that I have in front of 4 would -- one aspect of that dust would have been 4 you, I would like for you to turn, please, to page -- 5 asbestos, even though you weren't specifically 5 what is in the upper left-hand corner as page 48 6 targeting asbestos and not some other dust. 6 under the section, equipment for dust count? 7 You were trying to control all dust. 7 A. Okay. 8 MR. MADEKSHO: Object as non-responsive . 8 Q. And now, the first sentence under 9 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 9 equipment for dust counts reads, does it not, our 10 Q. When did DuPont start employing dust 10 problem now is to suppress the dust to a safe limit? 11 counters, asbestos dust counters in their plants 11 A. That's correct. 12 around the world? 12 Q. Then the very last two sentences of the 13 A. I'm not sure what kind of dust counters 13 paragraph reads, thus, Conometers -- and I don't know 14 you mean. Are you talking about sampling 14 even know if I'm pronouncing that right, probably 15 specifically for asbestos fibers? 15 not -- thus Conometers is a satisfactory instrument 16 Q. Yes, ma'am. 16 in the hands of the man who's had some training. The 17 A. Okay. I think that was really in the late 17 instrument imported is rather difficult to obtain and 18 '60s after they became aware that workers who were 18 not too expensive, under $200, I believe. 19 insulators, as reported in Dr. Seilikoff's meeting, 19 Is that an accurate reading? 20 were actually getting asbestos-associated diseases. 20 A. Yes. 21 And so DuPont started looking into trying to sample 21 Q. Now I would like to turn to page 50 of the 22 within their own plants to determine whether they ha d 22 same document, please, Dr. Stadler. 23 airborne asbestos exposures within their plants. 23 And the last two sentences of the first 24 And DuPont started with the methods that 24 paragraph at the top, correctly read -- do they 25 were kind of used at the time; and this is one of the 25 not -- this can be gotten rid of by a thoroughly Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 28 (Pages 105 to 108) 105 107 1 practical means such as vacuum cleaning or blowing 1 A. Yes. 2 down with a jet of wet air or stream. Respirators 2 Q. And it also states in the 1960 article 3 are satisfactory for the protection of the men doing 3 that, to paraphrase, cancer is -- strike that. 4 the cleaning. 4 You also are aware that the article 5 A. Okay. 5 states -- to paraphrase -- basically, the causal 6 Q. Is that a correct reading? 6 relationship between cancer and asbestos has been 7 A. Yes. 7 accepted by most authorities? 8 Q. And DuPont, again, was an executive member8 A. Yes. 9 of the committee that put out this document in 9 Q. And are you also aware of the -- what I'll 10 1934-1935, correct? 10 call low dose section of the article, where he states 11 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 11 a single month of exposure to asbestos dust is what's 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 sufficient to result in fatal asbestosis? 13 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 13 A. I'm not sure I know where that exists in 14 Q. We've already talked about Merriweather 14 the article. 15 Price. 15 Q. Here's what we'll do. Dennis, would you 16 Actually, I think we talked about most of 16 please get my number 13, and place it in front of 17 this stuff. Let me just ask a quick question: 17 Dr. Stadler, open to page 470. 18 DuPont did not dispute at this time, in the 18 (A document was marked for 19 mid-1930s, it was aware that asbestos caused severe 19 identification as 20 diseases? 20 Exhibit No. 6.) 21 A. No. It doesn't dispute the knowledge that 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. I have that page. 22 diseases were occurring in the asbestos industry. 22 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 23 Q. Okay. 23 Q. First, this is indeed Dr. Schepers' 24 A. Particularly in the asbestos textile 24 chapter in the 1960 book Modern Occupational 25 workers because they're the ones that were studied by 25 Medicine, correct? 106 108 1 Merriweather and Price. 1 A. Yes. It is the chapter called 2 Q. Well, that's -- I think we've saved a lot 2 Occupational Chest Diseases. 3 of time. 3 Q. And I would like to refer you to the 4 Do you know who Garrett Schepers is? 4 second paragraph on page 470, the third sentence, 5 A. Yes. 5 that properly reads, does it not, thus in one 6 Q. Who was Dr. Schepers? 6 verified case, a single month of exposure to asbestos 7 A. Dr. Schepers was a pathologist who worked 7 dust in a textile plant in one country was followed 8 at Haskell Laboratory. 8 30 years later in another country by fulminating 9 Q. When did he work at Haskell Laboratory? 9 fatal asbestosis; is that correct? 10 A. I'm not really sure. I know he was there 10 A. That's the sentence, yes. 11 in the '60s, but I'm not sure the total length of 11 Q. On that same page, there is a reference to 12 time he was employed at Haskell. 12 tremolite talc, causing asbestos-related diseases, 13 Q. Are you familiar with Dr. Schepers' 13 correct? 14 article in the Modern Occupational Medicine book 14 A. I'm sorry. I don't see that. There's 15 published in 1960? 15 another section on talcosis in that section. 16 A. Yes, I am. 16 Q. Yes, Doctor. For time's sake, I'll read 17 Q. Throughout the 1950s? 17 the second sentence into the record and you tell me 18 A. Yes, I am. 18 if I misread. 19 Q. The first edition was actually 1954. Are 19 Talcosis. The second sentence. The first 20 you aware of that? 20 is caused by tremolite talc and the disease is 21 A. No. I did not know that. 21 essentially asbestosis with the same range of severe 22 Q. Well -- 22 lesions found after chrysotile, amosite, or 23 A. I'm familiar with the 1960 edition. 23 crocidolite exposures? 24 Q. Okay. And you are aware that mesotheliom 24 A. That's correct. 25 is referenced in Dr. Schepers' 1960 article, correct? 25 Q. The talc bodies similar to asbestos bodies Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 29 (Pages 109 to 112) 109 111 1 also occur; is that a correct read? 1 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 2 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Well, here's where I'm going, Doctor: As 3 Q. Further, on page 443, if you want to turn 3 you're aware, Mr. McGlothlin worked at the DuPont 4 to that page -- 4 facility between '65 and '70 for some period, 5 A. Did you say 443? 5 correct? 6 Q. That's what it should be. Or am I -- am I 6 A. That's my understanding, yes. 7 not remembering correctly? I may not be rememberin g7 Q. And is it DuPont's position that the 8 correctly, Doctor. It's been a while since I 8 talc -- the tremolite talc-containing product did not 9 reviewed this document myself. 9 contribute to his mesothelioma? 10 In any event -- I'm sorry, it is 465, 10 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 11 Doctor. 11 THE WITNESS: I do not know. I have no 12 A. 465? 12 idea. 13 Q. Yes. 13 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 14 A. The one that has the slide of asbestos; is 14 Q. Is DuPont contending that its talc 15 that -- 15 products on Mr. McGlothlin's DuPont work site were 16 Q. Yes, Doctor. 16 not asbestos? 17 A. Okay. 17 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 18 Q. On page 465, there's indeed a slide of a 18 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I understand 19 pathological asbestosis, correct? 19 that question. I am not aware specifically of 20 A. That's correct. 20 tremolite talc products at DuPont. I am not aware of 21 Q. And under that asbestosis slide is listed 21 whether or not Mr. McGlothlin was specifically 22 talcosis, correct? 22 exposed to tremolite talc. I don't have that 23 A. Correct. 23 knowledge. 24 Q. Did you respond, Doctor? 24 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 25 A. Yes, I did. That's correct. 25 Q. Why don't we do this. Dennis, would you 110 112 1 Q. Sorry. And DuPont does not dispute that 1 please place in front of the witness my document that 2 tremolite talc causes asbestos-related diseases, does 2 I forwarded to you at the outset of the deposition 3 it? 3 that is not included in the numbers? 4 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 4 A. I have a copy of that. 5 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure that it's the 5 Q. You do? Okay. 6 talc or there may be asbestos contained within the 6 A. Excuse me. Are we finished with this 7 talc; so I can't confirm specifically that statement. 7 other one? Can I move it out? 8 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 8 Q. Yes, Doctor. 9 Q. Do you have any basis for disagreeing with 9 MR. COTTEN: We have two minutes remainin 10 Dr. Garrett Schepers' article in 1960 that does state 10 on the tape. 11 that? 11 MR. MADEKSHO: Why don't we switch them 12 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 12 out. And Larry, if you want to take a look at this 13 THE WITNESS: I have no problem with him 13 document while we switch out, go ahead. 14 indicating that talcosis is similar to asbestosis. 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Here marks the end o 15 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 15 video number 2, taken in the deposition of Dr. Judith 16 Q. Or that tremolite talc is actually 16 Stadler. Going off the record. The time on the 17 asbestos? 17 video screen is 14:21 and 15 seconds. 18 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 18 (Recess.) 19 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure that he says 19 (A document was marked for 20 that. I know he's talking about the lesions looking 20 identification as 21 just like asbestosis; and I honestly can't tell you 21 Exhibit No. 7.) 22 whether there's asbestos within the talc. I know the 22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Here begins videotap 23 talc comes from the ground and there could be 23 number 3, taken in the deposition of Dr. Judith 24 asbestos in it, or is the talc itself causing the 24 Stadler. Going back on the record. The time on the 25 same kind of disease process. 25 video screen is 14:24 and 15 seconds. Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 30 (Pages 113 to 116) 113 115 1 Please continue. 1 necessarily correct to say that. It looks like a 2 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 2 list with trade names, a very far-reaching list. I 3 Q. Dr. Stadler? 3 can't imagine that it would have been everything - 4 A. Yes. 4 or all of these things would have been present at 5 Q. Do you see the document in front of you 5 DuPont; but it certainly is a very all-inclusive list 6 entitled Sabine River Works, Technical Department 6 of various products that contain asbestos. 7 Process Laboratory? 7 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 8 A. Yes. 8 Q. Thank you, Doctor. We'll just go ahead 9 Q. And it is the position of DuPont that it 9 and move forward. And I object to the non-responsive 10 ceased installing new asbestos products on its 10 portion. 11 Sabine, and actually all its Texas plants in 11 Let's talk about the list. Now indeed on 12 approximately 1972, 1973? 12 this list are certain paint products, correct? 13 A. Yes. 13 I'll name them out to you to make it 14 Q. Therefore, the asbestos products, at least 14 quick: On page 5, we have K-361, likely the other 15 as DuPont alleges, any asbestos products present on 15 two, but I'm not -- I cannot -- well, all the K 16 those work sites in Texas were either installed prior 16 products, K-92, K-326, K-361, and K-682. 17 to 1972, 1973, or DuPont was not aware they had 17 A. Okay. 18 asbestos; is that safe to say? 18 Q. And then again on page 6, we have OEM 19 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 19 aluminum roof coating and on page 7 -- actually, skip 20 THE WITNESS: I know I would say that 20 page 7. 21 DuPont expected that there would be asbestos there 21 And then on page 9, we have 165-100 DuPont 22 from previous applications, yes. 22 CK coating, white based. 23 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 23 And those are all paints that are stated 24 Q. And indeed, this is a list of different 24 by DuPont to have asbestos in them, correct? 25 asbestos-containing products on one such DuPont 25 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 114 116 1 facility here in Texas, correct? 1 THE WITNESS: Well, they're on this list 2 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 2 as containing some part asbestos. 3 THE WITNESS: I see nothing -- this -- the 3 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 4 memo itself seems to be from Sabine River. I'm not 4 Q. And if you go to the first page, it also 5 sure that this list of trade names with carcinogenic 5 lists Asbestine as having asbestos, right? 6 hazards, the hazard being asbestos, I'm not sure what 6 A. Yes. 7 the source of that is. It appears to be something 7 Q. Sensibly it would follow from the trade 8 maybe copied from elsewhere. 8 name? 9 It looks like a very generic list, not 9 A. That one is easy to tell, yes. 10 necessarily a list of things that are -- or were at a 10 Q. Now, these products have asbestos in them 11 particular plant site. 11 and they are paints; that is what this DuPont 12 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 12 indicates, correct? 13 Q. Well, I mean, to be fair, it was produced 13 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 14 to me by DuPont, so... 14 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I see anything 15 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Objection to this 15 about paint. 16 document. 16 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 17 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 17 Q. Well, I'll refer you to -- I'll refer you 18 Q. So given that it is Sabine River Works 18 to the product manufacturer of the K products; that 19 Technical Department Process Laboratories, I mean, I 19 is 0197510. Correct? 20 think it was produced to me because it was relevant 20 Is that correct, Doctor? 21 in this case, and it mentions Sabine employees, don't 21 A. Yes. I see the product manufacturer. 22 you think it's fair to say that this is actually 22 Okay. 23 asbestos products at the Sabine plant? 23 Q. Okay. And that's for all the K products, 24 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 24 correct? 25 THE WITNESS: I don't think it's 25 A. Yes. Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 31 (Pages 117 to 120) 117 119 1 Q. And then on page 6, the OEM aluminum roo f 1 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of DuPont 2 coating, the product manufacturer is 0447624; is that 2 manufacturing paint with asbestos. 3 not correct? 3 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 4 A. It's taking me a while to get there. I'm 4 Q. Are you aware of DuPont manufacturing 5 sorry. 5 paint with talc in it. 6 Q. That's fine, Doctor. 6 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 7 A. Okay. 7 THE WITNESS: I do not know about any 8 Q. And that -- if you go through the pages, 8 paint with talc in it. 9 to page 15, that takes us to Electric Paint and 9 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 10 Varnish Company, right? 10 Q. If we wanted to find out about that, we 11 A. I'm sorry. What page are you on now? Did 11 could go to Haskell Labs and type that in, right? In 12 you say 16? 12 that little computer? 13 Q. 15. Excuse me. 15? 13 A. I do not know whether they would have all 14 A. 15. Are we looking at the 0197510? 14 the components of a paint product in them. 15 Q. Doctor, that would be on page 13. That's 15 Q. Well, I thought that we established 16 Kalman Paint and Chemical Company? 16 earlier that anything that had a potentially 17 A. Okay. That's the K products, correct? 17 hazardous component was studied before it was sold? 18 Q. Right. After Kalman. That's how they 18 A. A paint per se may have been studied. The 19 named their paint products? 19 details of what all the components are in a paint may 20 A. Okay. 20 not be available, maybe just the paint itself would 21 Q. Another is Electric Paint and Varnish, 21 have been provided to the laboratory as this is paint 22 that right there is the one that's on page 15. 22 X, Y, Z, and the laboratory may have studied paint X, 23 A. Okay. 23 Y, Z without knowing all of the individual components 24 Q. Is that correct? 24 of that paint. 25 A. Electric Paint and Varnish Company. 25 Q. So the answer is yes, Haskell Labs may 118 120 1 Q. Right. 1 have studied the paints? 2 A. Okay. 2 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 3 Q. And then on page 9, that 165-100 product, 3 THE WITNESS: Haskell Laboratory would 4 that's -- that product manufacturer number connects 4 have studied paints that DuPont made. I'm not aware 5 it to Standard Paint and Varnish on page 16; correct? 5 of any with asbestos. 6 A. Yes. I'm beginning to follow this key 6 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 7 now. I understand. 7 Q. Well, it would have to because even if -- 8 Q. If I did not make that connection clear 8 even if DuPont did not admit there was asbestos in 9 earlier, I apologize. That's my fault. 9 their paints, it would certainly have to admit that 10 But these are paint products, right? 10 there are solvents in their paint, correct? 11 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 11 A. There are certainly solvents in paints. 12 THE WITNESS: They're made by paint 12 Q. And those solvents can have an aromatic 13 companies. I have no idea what the product is 13 component or constituent, correct? Indeed do? 14 specifically. I would only make an assumption there 14 A. That's correct. 15 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 15 Q. And, therefore, in order to market and 16 Q. Well, that's fine. We can do that or not. 16 sell the paints, first it would have to study at 17 But it can be verified, you know, through independent 17 least those portions of its paints and that is done 18 research on the Internet. I would like to, however, 18 at Haskell Labs, correct? 19 continue on and not get mired down. 19 A. If a solvent is used to produce a paint 20 DuPont is aware that there are certain 20 and DuPont buys a solvent to put in its paint, DuPont 21 paints that have asbestos in them, correct? 21 would not necessarily do toxicology testing on that 22 A. I suppose they are. 22 solvent; they would expect the supplier to provide 23 Q. In fact, DuPont manufactures certain 23 that piece of information. 24 paints with asbestos in them, correct? 24 But DuPont may do testing on the paint as 25 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 25 a final product and do that work, so that, for Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 32 (Pages 121 to 124) 121 123 1 instance, many times we did inhalation testing on 1 The people at Haskell did not -- you know, 2 paints, but did not necessarily test each component 2 they're -- there are many things that DuPont makes 3 of the paint. The issue was, does this mixture of 3 And if it's mixtures of components, what the actual 4 components cause toxicity. The issue was not, are 4 proprietary mix is for that particular thing you're 5 there individual things in this material that could 5 testing, Haskell may not have been aware of 6 cause toxicity; and in many instances, you can have 6 everything in any one product. 7 lots of components that are not toxic by themselves 7 Haskell was aware of this is the product. 8 but could be by mixing them all together. So it was 8 Would you test it for us? 9 the product that was tested. 9 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 10 Q. Well, Doctor, that last part -- I'll 10 Q. Right. 11 object to the non-responsive portion. That last part 11 A. Okay? You understand where I'm coming 12 I'll agree with. I'm aware there are non-toxic and 12 from? 13 toxic constituents that are combined together to make 13 Q. Actually, Doctor, I don't think that we 14 a finished product. 14 disagree at all. 15 That we agree on, correct? 15 A. Okay. 16 A. Yes. 16 Q. I think we understand each other. 17 Q. And, however, DuPont must test the product 17 A. Just trying to clarify. 18 as it would be sold to consumers, either industrial 18 Q. I appreciate your candor. 19 or non-industrial consumers before it is sold to 19 Again, in order to find out specifically 20 determine whether it is safe, correct? 20 about products such as those on the lists, I'm going 21 A. That is the policy, yes. 21 to need to talk to some other individual, Doctor? 22 Q. All right. And so why would that be 22 A. In terms of -- 23 different if it were not solvents, but asbestos or 23 Q. In terms of Mr. McGlothlin. 24 talc, which are known to cause human disease? 24 A. I don't think that I can speak to the idea 25 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 25 of whether he was exposed to any of the things on 122 124 1 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure that it is 1 this list. I'm not sure what his exposures might 2 different; but what you're asking me was whether or 2 have been. 3 not we tested paints made by DuPont with those 3 Q. Right. In fact, those areas on my depo 4 materials in them. I'm saying I do not know if 4 notice are not areas for which you've been produced, 5 DuPont made any paints with those materials in them. 5 correct? 6 I'm not aware of it. 6 A. Correct. 7 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 7 MR. MADEKSHO: I think, Larry, I'm pretty 8 Q. Doctor, that's fair. I don't think that 8 good. I mean -- one thing, Doctor, before I tie it 9 we disagree. Okay? 9 up. 10 A. Okay. I'm just trying to clarify. 10 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 11 Q. If you don't know, you don't know. And 11 Q. Have you done any IH testing on the 12 that's fine. I'm just trying to establish the 12 release of asbestos fibers from any products? 13 testing methods. Do you understand? 13 MR. COTTEN: Are you talking about her 14 A. Uh-huh. 14 individually? 15 Q. Okay. I think we understand each other 15 MR. MADEKSHO: Yes. 16 and we don't necessarily disagree then. 16 THE WITNESS: No, I have not. 17 So but in order to do what I'm proposing 17 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 18 to do, that is find out, you know, if there's testing 18 Q. Okay. I didn't think so looking at your 19 and what the testing says, for that we go to Haskell 19 CV. In fact, I've had to use your CV kind of as a 20 Labs and type it in, type it in the computer? 20 guide, so that we can understand each other about 21 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 21 talking about these other things. But it was 22 THE WITNESS: That's right. But you would 22 helpful. And I think those are all the questions 23 probably putting in, you know, whatever the name of 23 that I have today, Larry. 24 the paint is. You would not put in components in the 24 MR. COTTEN: All right. Does anyone else 25 paint. Does that make sense? 25 on the phone have any questions? Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 33 (Pages 125 to 128) 125 127 1 (No response.) 1 A. It did over a period of time, yes. There 2 MR. COTTEN: Not hearing anyone, we have a 2 was a tremendous interest in chemistry; and 3 few questions ourselves; and so let's take just a 3 eventually, the company worked its way into 4 short break so I can get organized for that; is that 4 chemicals. It developed through its own research new 5 all right? 5 chemicals, and it bought a lot of chemical companies, 6 MR. MADEKSHO: Absolutely. 6 particularly in the early 1900s. 7 MR. COTTEN: Okay. 7 Q. Is the DuPont Company still in the 8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record 8 chemical business? 9 The time on the video screen is 14:40 and 53 seconds. 9 A. Yes, it is. 10 (Recess.) 10 Q. Has it branched out into other forms of 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the 11 business? 12 record. The time on the video screen is 14:52 and 11 12 A. It's getting into the biotechnology fields 13 seconds. 13 very extensively. 14 Please continue. 14 Q. Could you list for the judge and jury some 15 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DuPON r 15 of the different products that DuPont invented during 16 BY MR. COTTEN: 16 the course of its existence? 17 Q. Dr. Stadler, this is Larry Cotten. I 17 A. Well, I think some things that the 18 wanted to visit with you about several different 18 consumer would probably be most familiar with, of 19 areas having to do with DuPont and then with respect 19 course, is something like Nylon. DuPont is famous 20 to the DuPont's response to hazard information 20 for Nylon. They've also invented things like Tyvek 21 concerning uses of asbestos on its premises. 21 and Kevlar, other fibers in use; but I would say that 22 Are you prepared to go forward? 22 DuPont is primarily a company that produces things 23 A. Yes. 23 that you're not necessarily familiar with, trademark 24 Q. When did DuPont as a company first come 24 names. It makes them for other companies to make 25 into existence? 25 their products. 126 128 1 A. In 1802. 1 Q. I would like to visit with you concerning 2 Q. And what was the nature of the company at 2 DuPont's approach to safety. Do you know when DuPon 3 that time? 3 began to formulate its approach to safety? 4 A. The company started manufacturing black 4 A. I think from the very, very start, DuPont 5 powder, an explosive. It was used primarily 5 began to realize that the products that it was 6 initially for military applications; and the company 6 making, explosives, could have disastrous effects if 7 expanded into other explosives. 7 not handled appropriately; and, in fact, there were 8 They were used, like dynamiting operations 8 accidents right there on the site where they were 9 for building the railroad, that kind of thing. 9 making the explosives. 10 Q. Right. And when it was manufacturing 10 So DuPont decided early on that they 11 black powder, who was among its customers? 11 needed to put in some very stringent safety rules, so 12 MR. MADEKSHO: Larry, may I impose upon 12 that people would not get hurt and that deaths would 13 the witness to please speak up a little more? I'm 13 not occur due to unsafe work practices. 14 having a very difficult time hearing. 14 Q. In the cross-examination by Mr. Madeksho, 15 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 15 he visited with you some about DuPont's medical and 16 MR. MADEKSHO: That's okay. You're a very 16 safety departments. When did DuPont first set up an 17 soft-spoken lady. That's fine. 17 occupational health program? 18 BY MR. COTTEN: 18 A. Well, DuPont had an occupational health 19 Q. When it manufactured this black powder, 19 program relative to providing medical care for its 20 originally, when the company came into existence, do 20 own people in the 1800s. It actually set up a formal 21 you know who a primary customer of the company wa ;? 21 medical department in 1915; and then later, it set 22 A. The United States government. 22 up -- around 1926, I think it was -- a fire and 23 Q. Following its manufacture of black powder 23 safety division which was specifically charged with 24 and dynamite, did the nature of the company's 24 trying to prevent fire and set up good safety 25 business change? 25 practices at various plant sites. Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 34 (Pages 129 to 132) 129 131 1 Q. You also visited with Mr. Madeksho a good 1 the floor, et cetera. So they have policies for 2 bit about the Haskell Laboratories. 2 cleaning at the end of the day. 3 What is Haskell Labs? 3 Safety inspections have been conducted on 4 A. Haskell Laboratory has changed a little 4 a periodic basis, and housekeeping, including the 5 over time, but it is primarily what we call a 5 presence of dust, has been one of those things that 6 toxicology laboratory. It had the name toxicology 6 they have used in their safety inspections. 7 and industrial medicine for quite some time. 7 They've also -- as time goes on -- have 8 It's adapted to environmental sciences 8 become much more aware of the use of engineering 9 more lately, so it includes toxicology and 9 controls using hooded areas; in other words, where 10 environmental sciences. 10 the air is blown over a process and sucked out of the 11 But it is primarily a research laboratory 11 room or out of the building to prevent any kind of 12 used to ensure the safety of DuPont's products and 12 dust collection in a dust -- let's say a saw or some 13 its wastes. 13 kind of dust-generating piece of equipment. 14 Q. Was there a particular set of 14 They've used that. And then they, very 15 circumstances that led to the origin of Haskell Labs? 15 early on, had respiratory protection procedures for 16 A. Yes. Actually, Haskell Laboratories 16 dusty workplaces; and so they used those. They used 17 started in 1935. What happened was that they began 17 vacuums for pulling up dust and anything that they 18 to notice bladder tumors in their workers; and the 18 could find as a means of keeping down dust exposures 19 Haskell Laboratory, one of their initial charges, was 19 Q. Are you familiar with point of origin dust 20 to try to determine just what chemical exposure might 20 vacuums? 21 be causing these bladder tumors; and they eventually 21 A. Yes. That was really pretty much a vacuum 22 narrowed it down to naphthylamine which was being 22 kind of hood thing which would go over, say, a saw 23 used in the analine dyes. 23 where they were creating the dust and it would get 24 There were also other worker health issues 24 sucked away right away. 25 that Haskell addressed there in the 1930s; and they 25 Q. I think you made mention also of the 1964 130 132 1 published papers and made people aware of the 1 conference in New York that's become known general ly 2 toxicity of these chemicals and the kinds of effects 2 as the Selikoff conference? 3 that could be expected. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. All right. Thank you. 4 Q. Did DuPont have any of these measures with 5 You also addressed in Mr. Madeksho's 5 respect to dust control prior to the Selikoff 6 cross-examination of you, some aspects of the DuPont 6 conference? 7 dust policy. I think you told us about the origins 7 A. Oh, yes. These measures, they'd been 8 of that policy. 8 using in their dust control program for quite a while 9 What was the purpose of having a dust 9 prior to that time. 10 policy in the early days for the company? 10 Q. What sorts of dust would DuPont's policy 11 A. Well, initially, it was for health 11 cover with respect to avoidance? 12 purposes. They did not want people breathing the 12 A. I think that it would cover any kind of 13 dust. But it was also very much a safety purpose in 13 dust; anything -- in construction, for instance, 14 terms of the potential for explosion. If there's 14 whether they were talking about wood dust, where 15 very, very fine dusts of these explosives, it could 15 they -- you know, where they're talking about metal 16 ignite very quickly. 16 shavings, any kind of dust that would be created, 17 Q. Are you aware of the different methods 17 depending upon the process; and that would, of 18 that DuPont has used over time to control dust? 18 course, have included the asbestos. 19 A. Yes. I'm aware of at least some of them. 19 Q. I'd like you to refer to what's been 20 Q. Would you illustrate those for the jury, 20 marked as Exhibit 9 to your deposition; and please, 21 please? 21 if you would, identify for the record what that 22 A. Well, they've definitely used -- we talked 22 document is? 23 before about wet-down procedures. DuPont has 23 (A document was marked for 24 required a cleanup after a day's work to make sure 24 identification as 25 there was not dust sitting on any of the equipment or 25 Exhibit No. 9.) Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 35 (Pages 133 to 136' 133 135 1 THE WITNESS: This was referred to as the 1 Do you recall that? 2 S2T standard. This particular document you are 2 A. Yes. 3 showing me is -- was issued in May 1963, or it was 3 Q. Is that type of respirator among the 4 revised; but it sets out the levels that -- of 4 different respirators listed on page -- I think it is 5 exposure that would be acceptable, and it is called 5 page 113, beginning on page 113 of Exhibit 10? 6 maximum acceptable concentrations of air 6 A. Yes, it is. It is under the atmosphere 7 contaminants. 7 supplying respirators. 8 BY MR. COTTEN: 8 Q. Now, this standard was issued in January 9 Q. Go ahead. 9 of 1964 according to the document. 10 A. It was essentially DuPont accepting the 10 Do you know if DuPont employed these type 11 TLVs and then publishing them and sending them out 11 of respiratory protection equipment prior to the 12 throughout the company to let people know what the 12 issuance of the standard? 13 levels permissible were for all kinds of chemicals. 13 A. I do not know specifically what they -- 14 Q. What was the source of the values and the 14 what they were doing. My understanding is they did 15 substances that became a part of S2T? 15 have respiratory protective equipment available. I 16 A. Well, these were generally substances used 16 don't know if they had this large a scope of 17 in the chemical industry throughout the company -- 17 respirator or what type they may have had before tha 18 the country, and it was not necessarily 18 time. 19 DuPont-specific; but the values were from ACGIH and 19 Q. Is asbestos dust a particulate type of 20 these were typically called their max and later 20 contaminant? 21 called their TLVs. 21 A. Yes. It is a fiber, but a fiber is 22 Q. Is S2T an engineering standard at DuPont? 22 considered one type of particulate. 23 A. Yes. It was the engineering department 23 Q. If you would, please turn to Exhibit 24 that put out this, and the engineering department had 24 No. 11. Do you find that? 25 a lot of standards, this being one of them. 25 A. Yes. 134 136 1 Q. If you would turn to Exhibit 10, please? 1 (A document was marked for 2 A. Uh-huh. 2 identification as 3 Q. And would you describe for the jury what 3 Exhibit No. 11.) 4 this document consists of? 4 BY MR. COTTEN: 5 (A document was marked for 5 Q. What is Exhibit 11? 6 identification as 6 A. This is a letter to Dr. D'Alonzo who was 7 Exhibit No. 10.) 7 actually head of the medical department, and it was a 8 THE WITNESS: This document is called the 8 letter from Dr. Stopps who was a physiologist at 9 Respiratory Protective Equipment document. It is 9 Haskell Laboratory. 10 also put out by the safety and engineering group. It 10 Q. What is the date of the letter? 11 is called S2H. All the S2H standards had to do with 11 A. November 2, 1964. 12 equipment; and in this particular case, it was 12 Q. And are you familiar with this letter? 13 respiratory protective equipment. 13 A. Yes. It's the cover letter that he used 14 This one was issued in January 1964. It 14 to include his trip report from his attendance at the 15 is an example of the kind of thing that went out 15 Selikoff conference in New York. 16 throughout the company to talk about the acceptable 16 Q. Would you, for the record, read the first 17 things about respiratory protection; and it talks 17 two sentences of the second paragraph, please? 18 about the different kinds of respiratory protection 18 A. "This meeting underlined the fact that 19 that are available, you know, what they're like, what 19 diseases due to asbestos are no longer chiefly found 20 kind of filters they might have in them, et cetera. 20 in workers in asbestos mines and textile mills where 21 BY MR. COTTEN: 21 the risks have been recognized and guarded against. 22 Q. Earlier in the deposition, you were asked 22 The risks now are among the secondary users, such a 23 about the type of respiratory protection that 23 the manufacturers and installers of insulation, but 24 included fresh air respiratory protection provided 24 the risks are highest where the environmental 25 through a hose. 25 conditions are most difficult to control." Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 36 (Pages 137 to 140) 137 139 1 Q. Now, if you would turn, please, to Exhibit 1 Exhibit No. 13.) 2 12 and describe that to the jury, please. 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 (A document was marked for 3 BY MR. COTTEN: 4 identification as 4 Q. What do you recognize that as being? 5 Exhibit No. 12.) 5 A. This would be the memo that went out to 6 THE WITNESS: Exhibit 12 is a memorandum 6 all plant physicians from Dr. D'Alonzo. 7 to Dr. Zapp, the director of Haskell Laboratory from 7 Q. And what's the date of that? 8 Dr. Stopps. It is specifically his report -- his 8 A. November 9, 1964. 9 trip report of the conference that was held in New 9 Q. If you compare that to the date of the 10 York that is typically called the Selikoff 10 trip report, what does that indicate to you? 11 conference. 11 A. That indicates that he sent this letter 12 BY MR. COTTEN: 12 out within a week from November 2nd to the 9th. 13 Q. And who was this trip report addressed to? 13 Q. And who was it addressed to? 14 A. The report was directly addressed to 14 A. All plant physicians. 15 Dr. Zapp, the director of Haskell Laboratory. 15 Q. Did DuPont conduct medical examinations of 16 Q. And who was it copied to? 16 its employees at the plant level? 17 A. And then he put a cover letter on this 17 A. Yes. It did. 18 trip report, and that was the previous document that 18 Q. And how often? 19 went to Dr. D'Alonzo who was the medical director of 19 A. It was in -- it was at that time in a 20 the company. 20 cycle of once a year examinations. 21 Q. Do you know what was done with the trip 21 Q. And did that include chest examinations? 22 report following it being disseminated to Dr. Zapp, 22 A. Yes, it did. It included chest x-rays. 23 Dr. D'Alonzo, and J.W. Clayton, Junior? 23 Q. If you would please turn to Exhibit 14? 24 A. Dr. D'Alonzo, within about a month, 24 Do you recognize Exhibit 14? 25 probably less, of having received it sent it out to 25 A. Yes. 138 140 1 all of the medical departments throughout the company 1 (A document was marked for 2 at various plant sites. And he asked that people 2 identification as 3 read this report, take a look at it; and they agreed 3 Exhibit No. 14.) 4 that one of the foremost things they needed to do was 4 BY MR. COTTEN: 5 determine -- certainly we knew that DuPont had 5 Q. Would you tell the jury what this 6 asbestos insulation on many of its processes. And 6 memorandum is, please? 7 the question really became who or what workers may be 7 A. This is a summary of a meeting that was 8 exposed to asbestos, and do we have any groups of 8 held -- was actually held at Haskell Laboratory; and 9 workers who -- exposed to asbestos seem to be 9 it was a meeting on the use of asbestos within the 10 suffering from some sort of asbestos-related disease. 10 DuPont Company. This was a follow-up certainly to 11 So he was almost immediately trying to do 11 the survey that was put out, and it was a meeting 12 a survey of the company. It being a big company, 12 that the people listed here that were present were 13 people working in Wilmington not being aware of 13 medical people, Haskell Laboratory people, and they 14 exactly where these exposures might occur, the first 14 were talking about the asbestos problem, and also ho w 15 thing was to try to find out the extent of exposure 15 they might begin to get a handle on potential 16 through the company. 16 exposures and what they needed to do. 17 Q. From your knowledge of the company's 17 Q. Let's talk a little bit about some of the 18 medical program, who would be the persons most likely 18 specifics in Exhibit 14. 19 to be in a position to observe a health effect from a 19 You recognize any of the names of the 20 DuPont employee during this time? 20 persons shown to be present at that meeting? 21 A. It would be probably, in this case, the 21 A. Well, the medical director, Dr. D'Alonzo, 22 medical personnel at the plant sites. 22 his assistant, Dr. Zahn, the director of the Haskell 23 Q. If you would, take a look at Exhibit 13? 23 Laboratory, Dr. Zapp, and his assistant director, 24 (A document was marked for 24 Dr. Clayton. 25 identification as 25 The medical doctor at Chambers Works, Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 37 (Pages 141 to 144) 141 143 1 which was a large chemical plant of the DuPont 1 Q. I'd like for you now to turn to Exhibit 2 Company. Adrian Linch, who was an industrial 2 15, please. 3 hygienist was there. Sid Pell, a biostatistician in 3 (A document was marked for 4 the medical division was there. Dr. Stopps was 4 identification as 5 there. Dr. Reinhardt, another MD, a physiologist at 5 Exhibit No. 15.) 6 Haskell Laboratory. And the representative from the 6 BY MR. COTTEN: 7 engineering department, Mr. Zane. 7 Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 15? 8 Q. Now, with respect to page 2 of Exhibit 14, 8 A. Yes. That's another memo to the plant 9 would you indicate what this document shows was the 9 physicians from Dr. D'Alonzo. 10 objective of the -- or objectives of the study? 10 Q. What's the date of that memo? 11 A. The objective of the study they were going 11 A. November 8, 1966. 12 to do was to assess the risks to the health of 12 Q. Can you tell the jury from your 13 employees from asbestos within the company, and 13 familiarity with the document what it addresses? 14 examine the handling procedures for asbestos from an 14 A. Let me see. 15 industrial hygiene viewpoint and prescribe safer 15 It addresses really the asbestos issues, 16 procedures. 16 defining what employees may be at risk. Asking if 17 Q. And does the document indicate how they 17 they are in any way spraying insulating materials. 18 were going to go about doing that? 18 It talks about pulmonary function testing. It 19 A. Yes. They were -- they had what they 19 includes some articles on asbestos. 20 called a plan of attack. And it defines what they 20 Q. Was this document a request by 21 were going to do about the exposure parameters, 21 Dr. D'Alonzo for information concerning specifics 22 define dust levels, determine what materials contain 22 surrounding asbestos at the different plants? 23 asbestos, define what operations might be going on 23 A. Yes. He very specifically asked for them 24 where exposure could occur. 24 to reply on four questions, how many full-time 25 I say that with respect to the idea that 25 insulators do you have; how many part-time people do 142 144 1 it's not just -- does this material contain asbestos, 1 you have; list the prevalent types of insulating 2 but the health risk here is whether or not it's 2 material; and are they doing any spraying of 3 becoming airborne; so some operations would be 3 insulation. 4 perhaps more likely to cause airborne exposure. 4 And then more specifically, give the 5 Then they wanted to define the adequate 5 number of each the following diseases and talks 6 respiratory protective procedures, and also then 6 about, you know, how many people have had asbestosis, 7 consider looking and finding substitutes for the 7 mesothelioma, carcinoma, among the insulators; and 8 asbestos that was present. 8 then list any preventive measures or safety equipment 9 Q. Do you know if indeed these measures were 9 required in your location. 10 taken? 10 Q. If you would turn to Exhibit 16, and 11 A. Yes, they were. This was quite a bit, but 11 please advise what Exhibit 16 is? 12 each one these was pursued in different ways. 12 (A document was marked for 13 Q. On page 3, there is a heading entitled 13 identification as 14 implementation. 14 Exhibit No. 16.) 15 I'd like to ask you if you see persons 15 THE WITNESS: This is a letter from 16 there that you recognize their names that were 16 Dr. Stopps to Dr. Harriet Hardy, who was assistant 17 suggested as being part of the working party? 17 director of occupational medical services at MIT in 18 A. Yes. The names, most of them are familiar 18 Massachusetts. 19 to me. Dr. Stopps and Mr. Pell; and the engineering 19 BY MR. COTTEN: 20 department, I think one of the individuals listed 20 Q. Who directed the letter to her? 21 here, Mr. Keuper, certainly became very prominent 21 A. It was from Dr. Stopps and he said he had 22 within the construction division, became -- was 22 a conversation with Dr. Dixon from England. And he 23 director of safety and took a very prominent role in 23 is wanting to know about the potential that there are 24 looking at the asbestos issues. And then the 24 real differences between the different types of 25 industrial hygienist, Mr. Linch. 25 asbestos. And he is wondering about how this applies Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 38 (Pages 145 to 148' 145 147 1 to the tumor types and other diseases associated witl 1 Q. What is this document that was formulated 2 asbestos. 2 by Mr. Keuper and distributed to all these persons? 3 Q. Was there a particular emphasis upon any 3 A. The title on it is dust control; and it is 4 particular type of asbestos-related disease? 4 about controlling dust within the construction 5 A. It is specifically asking about tumors of 5 division, which is where most, of course, the 6 the lung, tumorigenicity; so it is talking about lung 6 construction and use of asbestos occurred. It has 7 cancer. 7 sort of several phases to it. 8 Q. Do you see at about midway in the 8 One being air monitoring, and it talks 9 document, the word "mesotheliomata"? 9 about the fact that the company has set a threshold 10 A. Yes. And he's asking about the different 10 limit value of .5 million particles per cubic feet of 11 types in terms of their ability to cause 11 air which is lower than the TLV. 12 mesothelioma. 12 Personnel monitoring was to be conducted 13 Q. The next document that we've asked the 13 in the insulation shops, and training site safety 14 court reporter to mark is Exhibit No. 17. 14 personnel to be responsible for this. 15 (A document was marked for 15 The people were to solicit people to be 16 identification as 16 monitored. It talks about what kind of equipment 17 Exhibit No. 17.) 17 should be used and how that equipment -- those 18 BY MR. COTTEN: 18 samples should be handled and what to do with them. 19 Q. What is Exhibit 17, please? 19 It also had a section on atmospheric dust 20 A. This is a memo about dust control. It 20 control and it laid out a lot of parameters for 21 went out to project managers and that -- it came from 21 controlling dust in the workplace. This included the 22 the engineering department at DuPont; and it was 22 fact that no one was to be purchasing crocidolite, 23 written by Mr. Keuper, the division safety 23 which was at that time primarily a primary asbestos 24 superintendent. 24 type that was thought to cause mesothelioma from th 25 Q. And what was the date of the memo? 25 literature; so they determined that they would not 146 148 1 A. April 5, 1968. 1 purchase it. 2 Q. And do you know who the field project 2 They eliminated the pressure spray 3 managers were? 3 application of materials containing asbestos. 4 A. These were your safety supervisors at all 4 They isolated power tool equipment and 5 these various plants, and it was quite a list here. 5 those operations when fabricating asbestos. 6 Q. Does it include from your reading any of 6 They needed to have the power equipment 7 the Texas facilities? 7 have exhaust ventilation. 8 A. Yes, it does. It includes Beaumont, and 8 They had to have a shop cleanliness 9 it includes Sabine River. 9 program and had to have a controlled materials 10 Q. Do you see where it shows Houston and 10 handling program to make sure that there was no dus 11 Victoria, as well? 11 eliminated; for instance, when you would open a bag 12 A. Yes. 12 of asbestos materials, they were to maintain 13 Q. Up in the CC section, what other persons 13 procedures that would not allow the material to 14 within the company in addition to field project 14 become airborne. 15 managers was this memorandum directed to? 15 Q. And in that last section, what does it 16 A. It was directed to people in employee 16 address? 17 relations and also Dr. Stopps, Haskell; it was 17 A. The last section then is that ultimately, 18 directed to people in the engineering and 18 if it is dusty, things are -- there are work 19 construction division at Louviers, which was the mai n 19 processes that people are to wear respiratory 20 site for the engineering department. 20 protection, and that outlines what kind of respirator 21 Q. And what's the last -- on the CC, what's 21 was acceptable to use. 22 the last indicated type of person to receive this 22 Q. Go back on page 2 to under air monitoring, 23 document? 23 where the threshold limit value was set at 500,000 24 A. Any of the site safety supervisors in the 24 particles per cubic foot of air. 25 construction division. 25 Do you see that? Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 39 (Pages 149 to 152) 149 151 1 A. Yes. 1 and how safe their products really were. 2 Q. What was the standard TLV as published by 2 Q. What do you recall Mr. Keuper's response 3 the ACGIH at that time? 3 to those advances to be? 4 A. At that time, it was still the 5 million 4 A. It was not very positive. 5 particles. 5 Q. The next document is marked as Exhibit 19. 6 Q. So by this document, it indicates that 6 What is Exhibit 19? 7 DuPont was reducing its own limit from 5 million down7 (A document was marked for 8 to 500,000? 8 identification as 9 A. That's correct. At least within the 9 Exhibit No. 19.) 10 construction division. 10 THE WITNESS: This is a memo to Jeremiah 11 Q. Now, does the document indicate when this 11 Lynch, who was at the U.S. Public Health Service and 12 program was to be effected? 12 it came from a Mr. Thatcher, safety engineer at 13 A. It says June 1st. And this was issued 13 DuPont. 14 April 5. So almost immediately thereafter. 14 BY MR. COTTEN: 15 Q. Do you know from the work that you've done 15 Q. And do you know who Jeremiah Lynch was? 16 in preparing yourself to serve in the capacity as a 16 A. He was an industrial hygienist who worked 17 corporate representative for DuPont whether this 17 at the Public Health Service, and he had published 18 program actually was implemented? 18 some papers on sampling and really advocated the use 19 A. It was implemented. And if I can add that 19 of the filter cassette type of sampling, and 20 it was a very effective program. Dr. Selikoff even 20 indicated that it would be best to replace the 21 heard about it and invited Mr. Keuper to come and 21 impingers by that type of sampling device. And 22 talk at the next conference that they had. He 22 DuPont was actually contacting him a number of time 23 invited Mr. Keuper to come and talk about DuPont's 23 to work out their dust counting and air sampling 24 program. 24 methodology during this period of time. 25 Q. If you would turn to the next exhibit, 25 Q. If you would now turn to Exhibit 20, 150 152 1 Exhibit 18, and could you tell the jury what Exhibit 1 please, and would you describe for the jury what 2 18 is? 2 Exhibit 20 is? 3 (A document was marked for 3 (A document was marked for 4 identification as 4 identification as 5 Exhibit No. 18.) 5 Exhibit No. 20.) 6 THE WITNESS: This is a memo from 6 THE WITNESS: This is a letter to Herb 7 Pittsburgh Corning Corporation to Mr. Keuper; and 7 Stockinger, who was chairman of the TLV committee a 8 they're talking about Unibestos, the insulation 8 the American Conference of Governmental and 9 material that was manufactured by Pittsburgh Corning;. 9 Industrial Hygienists, and it was from Adrian Linch 10 They're telling him that there is no chrysotile or 10 of the DuPont Company. 11 crocidolite fibers in the Unibestos and they're 11 BY MR. COTTEN: 12 giving him a run down on the components within the 12 Q. What was the date of the letter? 13 Unibestos. 13 A. April 1, 168. 14 Then they also included a report from the 14 Q. And what -- from your reading of the 15 Industrial Hygiene Foundation on asbestos. 15 document can you tell what Adrian Linch was seeking? 16 Q. Were you familiar with testimony 16 A. He was actually requesting that the TLV 17 previously given by Mr. Keuper? 17 committee change their methodology in terms of 18 A. Yes. 18 setting a TLV based on the new cassette sampling type 19 Q. And as part of that familiarity, are you 19 of methodology instead of the older impinger sampling 20 familiar with a circumstance where manufacturers of 20 method. He says that we're convinced that the filter 21 asbestos-containing materials were attempting to get 21 membrane is a much better way to go, and we would 22 DuPont to continue to buy them? 22 really like to see you change the TLV to comply with 23 A. Yes. He says that he was pretty much 23 the newer methodology. 24 bombarded by manufacturers of asbestos products at 24 Q. If you would look at Exhibit 21, please? 25 that time. They were telling him about the safety 25 (A document was marked for Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 40 (Pages 153 to 156) 153 155 1 identification as 1 asbestos fibers. 2 Exhibit No. 21.) 2 If they were less than five microns, 3 BY MR. COTTEN: 3 between five and 10 microns or greater than 10 4 Q. Tell us what the date of Exhibit 21 is? 4 microns. 5 A. I'm sorry. Looks like a 3, but I think it 5 Q. What do these sampling results indicate 6 is an 8. July 11, 1968. 6 with respect -- these specific samples taken on June 7 Q. And who was it authored by? 7 7, 1968 in Beaumont in comparison with the 5 millioi 8 A. It was authored by Kent Keuper. 8 particles per cubic foot threshold limit value as 9 Q. Who is it directed to? 9 published by the ACGIH? 10 A. To Adrian Linch. 10 A. They were definitely well below the 5 11 Q. And what did this memo to Adrian Linch 11 million particles per cubic foot for the total number 12 together with its enclosures have to do with? 12 of particles, and certainly way below, if you were to 13 A. This had to do with the dust control 13 convert them to the newer numbers that were put into 14 program, and they were actually sending him result > 14 place, they were way below levels for asbestos fibers 15 from the dust sample at the construction division 15 per se. 16 site locations that they had taken during the month 16 Q. If you would go back to Exhibit 17, just 17 of June. 17 for one moment? And that's the dust control program 18 Q. And if you will turn to what appear to be 18 for Mr. Keuper? 19 the enclosures, what is the first enclosure with 19 A. Okay. 20 Exhibit 21? 20 Q. Turn to the second page down to number 4. 21 A. Looks like a summary of particle and fiber 21 Would you read that and then indicate to 22 counts for June 1968. 22 the jury how asbestos dust creating operations would 23 Q. And can you tell how many different 23 be selected for air monitoring? 24 locations were sampled? 24 A. What it says is when soliciting 25 A. I'd say about 15 or -- there were several 25 participation in the air monitoring program, craft 154 156 1 samples taken. 1 supervision and safety engineers should be anticipate 2 Q. Were any samples taken from any of the 2 who will be involved in work which will produce the 3 Texas plants? 3 greatest dust exposure for what day of that month; 4 A. Here's one from Houston. Victoria, 4 and that -- 5 Beaumont. 5 Q. What does that mean to you? 6 Q. Can you look at the values from the 6 A. That means to me that they were following 7 sampling that were taken in June of 1968 and can yo 1 7 what is typical industrial hygiene practice. You 8 interpret what those particle counts indicate. 8 take your first samples at the places where you 9 Let's go for Beaumont. 9 believe the exposure is going to be greatest; and if 10 A. Okay. Beaumont particle count, total 10 you are not over limits at that particular site, you 11 particles under the old style of reporting in million 11 can assume that those further away or not handling 12 particles per cubic foot, the particle count was .63. 12 asbestos would not be exposed to levels above TLV. 13 Q. And -- 13 It's taking the worst first is kind of the 14 A. Plus or minus zero -- 14 phrase that's been coined; and you do that first to 15 Q. .63 of what? 15 determine what the situation might be. 16 A. That would be million particles per cubic 16 Q. If you would, now, turn to Exhibit 22. 17 foot. 17 (A document was marked for 18 Q. So that would be less than one particle 18 identification as 19 per 5 million particles per cubic foot? 19 Exhibit No. 22.) 20 A. No. That would be less than -- it would 20 BY MR. COTTEN: 21 be .6 million particles per cubic foot. 21 Q. Could you indicate for the jury what 22 Q. And is it compared with using the newer 22 Exhibit 22 is? 23 sampling technology? 23 A. This is a safety -- a copy of a safety 24 A. Yes, it also includes asbestos fibers; and 24 manual for contractors. And it's specific for those 25 it gives various counts for different sizes of 25 entering into any contracts with DuPont. Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 41 (Pages 157 to 160) 157 159 1 Q. Now, would you turn to page -- one moment 1 A. I would say it may have been the other way 2 Let me find it. 2 around. 3 18 in that manual, please? 3 Q. The construction division is within the 4 A. Okay. 4 engineering department? 5 Q. What is this -- beginning on page 18, what 5 A. Yes. 6 does this section address itself to? 6 Q. Had that backwards. 7 A. This is a section on safety standards. 7 Do you see on page 2 of that manual, it is 8 Q. And what does that include? 8 marked as page 2, a section there on respiratory? 9 A. It includes -- first of all, talks about 9 A. Yes. 10 the tool box meetings. It talks about assignment, 10 Q. Would you read that for the jury, please? 11 safety task assignments; it talks about a proctor 11 A. It says, "Ventilators, fans, air movers, 12 system. 12 dust masks, or a combination of these should be used 13 It talks about various pieces of equipment 13 in dusty atmospheres. Respirators must be worn 14 such as goggles, safety shoes, and has a whole 14 around hazardous or toxic fumes. Air-supply masks 15 section on scaffolding and the use of scaffolding, 15 are required when working in a hazardous fume 16 excavations, ladders, all sorts of pieces of 16 atmosphere." 17 equipment, safety. 17 Q. I want to ask you one more question, and 18 Q. What was the purpose of the tool box 18 that is, we see in what appear to be good results in 19 meetings? 19 1968 when DuPont monitored some of its plant sites 20 A. The tool box meetings were very 20 for asbestos exposure, correct? 21 specific -- my understanding is they generally 21 A. That's correct. 22 occurred every Monday morning at the beginning of a 22 Q. And those results were well within the 23 work shift, about a 15-minute meeting to talk about 23 present day -- at that time -- TLVs, correct? 24 any safety issues that might have come up during the 24 A. That's correct. 25 past week; what people might expect; what hazards 25 Q. Did the DuPont Company determine at that 158 160 1 they might be working with; just a general 1 point in time that it didn't have a problem and stop 2 communication on safety meeting. 2 its response to the information that it had about 3 Q. If you would turn back under Exhibit 22 to 3 asbestos hazards? 4 what's indicated as the page 7 of the manual itself? 4 A. No. It continued. It continued to work 5 A. Page 7? Okay. 5 on trying to reduce dusts, trying to control hazards, 6 Q. And under the first paragraph of 6 making sure that they had the right respirators, that 7 Respiratory, Nose and Lungs, where it says required ,7 was one thing that became very clear in changing 8 would you please read that sentence? 8 science. It became clear that perhaps the 9 A. "Required: Dust mask, respirator when in 9 respirators that they had previously been using were 10 extremely dusty atmosphere, sweeping, breaking 10 not as protective as the newer ones being developed, 11 concrete, and all prolonged or continuous exposures 11 so they kept up their respiratory protection program 12 to any dusts." 12 and continued to change to the latest and best model 13 Q. Is the word "any" italicized? 13 that they could find for people to use. 14 A. Yes, it is. 14 They ultimately developed many more things 15 Q. If you would then turn to Exhibit 23? 15 around their medical surveillance program and 16 (A document was marked for 16 continued to work on other items like labeling what 17 identification as 17 places might contain asbestos so workers knew that if 18 Exhibit No. 23.) 18 they were to go into a particular area, maybe cut 19 BY MR. COTTEN: 19 into pines, that asbestos might be there. 20 Q. Would you tell the jury what this is? 20 Just a lot of things that they did to make 21 A. This is a Safety Handbook For Contractors 21 the program even better. 22 put out by the construction division. 22 Q. During this time period that this activity 23 Q. And is the -- as we discussed before, the 23 directed toward evaluating and controlling asbestos 24 engineering department within the construction 24 hazards on its sites, including the period of 1965 25 division? 25 through 1970, do you know if any time during that Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 42 (Pages 161 to 164) 161 163 1 timeframe or before that timeframe, whether even one 1 what he did. 2 person had made a claim that they had developed an 2 Q. Okay. 3 asbestos-related disease from working at a DuPont 3 A. He was a carpenter is all I really know. 4 facility? 4 Q. So what were you told was his employment? 5 A. I am not aware of any during that period 5 A. I was told that he was a carpenter. 6 of time. 6 Q. Do you know what he did when he worked at 7 MR. COTTEN: Thank you very much, Doctor. 7 the DuPont plant in Texas? 8 I'll pass the witness. 8 A. No. 9 MR. MADEKSHO: Do any of the other 9 Q. Do you know -- and you did say just now 10 defendants have any questions? 10 that you don't know exactly what he did in his 11 MS. HUYNH: I have a few. 11 employment, right? 12 MR. MADEKSHO: Oh, you do? Okay, well, go 12 A. Correct. Because carpenter is so very 13 ahead. 13 general, it's hard to say. 14 MS. KRAMER: Were you planning to ask some 14 Q. So you don't know what he did? 15 more after that? I just wanted to ask Chris if he 15 A. No. 16 was planning to ask after that. 16 Q. Do you know exactly which area at DuPont 17 MR. MADEKSHO: I am. 17 he would have worked at? 18 MS. HUYNH: My name is Diane Huynh. I 18 A. I do not know. 19 only have a few quick questions for Dr. Stadler. 19 Q. Don't know exactly who he was working with 20 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR 20 or around at DuPont? 21 MINE SAFETY APPLIANCES COMPANY 21 A. I am not aware of who or what he was doing 22 BY MS. HUYNH: 22 as a DuPont employee, the specific jobs he conducted 23 Q. Dr. Stadler, can you hear me? 23 Q. And you don't know exactly who he was 24 A. Yes, I can. 24 working with or around; is that right? 25 Q. Okay. If you can't, make sure you let me 25 A. That's correct. 162 164 1 know so I can speak up, okay? 1 Q. You don't know exactly what he was exposed 2 A. Okay. 2 to, if anything? 3 Q. Now, based on your earlier testimony, you 3 A. I have no knowledge of any exposures he 4 indicated that you didn't start working for DuPont at 4 may have had. 5 Haskell Labs until 1984; is that correct? 5 Q. Fine. And you know -- you know exactly 6 A. That's correct. 6 what equipment he would have used to perform his job 7 Q. And this is about 14 years after Decedent 7 duties? 8 McGlothlin last worked at DuPont? 8 A. I can only assume normal carpenter type 9 A. Yes. 9 tools. 10 Q. And you testified earlier -- you never 10 Q. All right. But you don't know exactly 11 visited any of the DuPont plants in Texas? 11 what type of equipment he would have used to perform 12 A. That's correct. 12 his duties, right? 13 Q. All right. So you never visited the plant 13 A. No, I don't. 14 where Decedent McGlothlin worked; is that correct? 14 Q. Do you know exactly what equipment was 15 A. That's correct. 15 used by other workers working around him at DuPont? 16 Q. And you never personally met him; is that 16 A. I don't know specifics. I certainly know 17 right? 17 that carpenters would have been doing sawing, 18 A. That's correct. 18 hammering, any of those kinds of things. 19 Q. So you don't know him personally? 19 Q. But you're assuming. You don't know that 20 A. I do not know him and did not know him 20 personally because you never was there witnessing 21 personally. 21 what he did; is that right? 22 Q. Do you know what he did throughout his 22 A. Not witnessing specifically this 23 employment career? 23 individual. 24 A. I have seen and been told about his 24 Q. Okay. But you wouldn't know who worked 25 employment, but I do not know the specifics around 25 around him and exactly what equipment they would hav Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 43 (Pages 165 to 168) 165 167 1 used when they were working around him; is that 1 Stadler. Going back on the record. The time on the 2 correct? 2 video screen is 15:57 and 43 seconds. 3 A. That's correct. 3 Please continue. 4 Q. And do you know if any of his job duties 4 MR. COTTEN: Chris, are you there? 5 at DuPont required him to wear any form of 5 MR. MADEKSHO: I'm here. Is the witness 6 respiratory protective equipment? 6 back? 7 A. I do not know. 7 MR. COTTEN: The witness is back. We are 8 Q. Do you know if he was provided with any 8 back on the record. 9 respiratory protective equipment while performing his 9 MR. MADEKSHO: Okay. Very good. 10 job duties at the DuPont plant where he worked? 10 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIF 11 A. I can only speak to what the general 11 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 12 requirements were. 12 Q. Dr. Stadler? 13 Q. I understand that. But I'm asking 13 A. Yes. 14 something very specific, Dr. Stadler. 14 Q. Okay. This may sound a little silly, but 15 And that is if you have any personal 15 I kind of have to ask for some technical reasons. 16 knowledge if he has provided with any respiratory 16 You obviously came to work at Haskell and DuPont for 17 equipment while performing his job duties at the 17 the first in '84, right? 18 DuPont plant where he worked? 18 A. That's correct. 19 A. No. I have no specifics on this 19 Q. Therefore, you were not present at or 20 individual. 20 around the time that these documents that you and 21 Q. Thank you. Do you know if he actually 21 Mr. Cotten, DuPont's lawyer, were talking about over 22 ever wore any type of respiratory protective 22 the past several minutes, correct? 23 equipment while performing any job duties at the 23 A. That's correct. 24 DuPont plant where he worked in Texas? 24 Q. And your only familiarity with these 25 A. I do not know specifically. I can only 25 documents is the ability to read these documents as 166 168 1 say that if it was a requirement of his job, he would 1 would any other person? 2 not have been employed at DuPont very long if he 2 A. That's correct. 3 wasn't wearing appropriate equipment. 3 Q. And is your ability to rely on these 4 Q. I understand that. But my question is 4 documents the result of any conversations you might 5 very specific and -- 5 have had with anybody else? 6 A. I understand that. And I do not know this 6 A. I can only comment on that fact that I 7 individual and would not have ever observed him not 7 have also read some depositions of people who worked 8 wearing respiratory protection. 8 at the plant sites; and so I have some familiarity 9 Q. Fine. You don't know if he ever wore any 9 with how they went about doing some of these 10 type of respiratory protective equipment while 10 procedures. 11 performing any job duties at the DuPont plant in 11 Q. But none of those testimonies relates to 12 Texas; is that right? 12 the specific production of these documents which were 13 A. That's correct. 13 addressed in your direct testimony with Mr. Cotten, 14 MS. HUYNH: That's all I have. Thank you 14 correct? 15 very much. 15 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 16 MR. MADEKSHO: Anybody else? 16 THE WITNESS: Correct. 17 MR. COTTEN: Chris, we have two minutes on 17 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 18 the tape. 18 Q. Therefore, your understanding of them is 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Here marks the end of 19 reading them, like anybody else would able to do, 20 videotape number 3, taken in the deposition of 20 right? 21 Dr. Judith Stadler. Going off the record. The time 21 A. Reading them and having worked at DuPont 22 on the video screen is 15:52 and 55 seconds. 22 and knowing some of the things that were procedures, 23 (Recess.) 23 being familiar with them, even when I began to work 24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Here begins videotape 24 there. Some of these things had not changed. 25 number 4, taken in the deposition of Dr. Judith 25 Q. Okay. Now I'm not sure what exhibit it Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 44 (Pages 169 to 172) 169 171 1 is, but there is a -- there is a July 11, 1963 letter 1 became the first to step to the plate, do the 2 that was referenced in your direct testimony, 2 sampling, and try out these methods of comparing the 3 relating to exposure levels at DuPont, correct? 3 old impinger sampling to the newer cassette filter 4 Do we know what exhibit that is? 4 sampling and try to determine whether or not there 5 MR. COTTEN: I think you're referring to 5 were levels that were above TLVs in those sites. 6 S2T? 6 And those sites were at a range of 7 MR. MADEKSHO: What exhibit is it? 7 different plant sites across the country. 8 MR. COTTEN: It is going to be Exhibit 9, 8 So that's why you see various plant sites 9 I believe. 9 listed here, because the construction division had 10 MR. MADEKSHO: The July 11 -- from Adriai1 10 major projects going on at those places. 11 Linch, medical section, Chambers Works. 11 Q. So was it mandatory or was it not 12 MR. COTTEN: That's different. 12 mandatory? 13 MR. MADEKSHO: All right. It is from 13 A. Mandatory in what way? 14 Keuper to them, actually. July 11, 1963 or '68. I'm 14 Q. Well, was -- did DuPont require air 15 not really sure. 15 monitoring concerning asbestos in 1968? 16 THE WITNESS: That's the one on the dust 16 A. I think that the construction division 17 control program that was being outlined by Mr. Keupe r 17 said -- and Mr. Keuper said -- we will do this. 18 from the construction division. 18 Q. So no, it was not required, it was just, 19 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 19 we'll do it if we want? 20 Q. Yes. What exhibit is that? 20 A. No. I think Mr. Keuper said we as a 21 A. 21. 21 construction division are going to do this. Step up. 22 Q. Okay. Your reference to Exhibit 21 during 22 And this is the way we're going to go about doing it. 23 Mr. Cotten's examination, that related to certain 23 I don't think it was, you have the choice if you're 24 numbers on the second page that looks like it says 24 in the construction division to opt in or out. 25 June 1968 samples? 25 Q. Okay. 170 172 1 A. Yes. 1 A. It was -- he was telling people, you're 2 Q. Are there other samples for this -- for 2 going to participate in this dust control program. 3 these premises that you know about? 3 One aspect of it being sampling. 4 A. I'm sure there are. Somewhere I have seen 4 Q. All right. And so from '68 on, it was 5 other samples that were taken that would be more 5 mandatory that in the construction division, DuPont 6 specific. This appears to be some of the earliest 6 monitor asbestos exposure for employees, correct? 7 sampling that was done, and I think I have seen mor 7 A. The dust control program as outlined in 8 detailed sampling that would have come. 8 this thing by Mr. Keuper was mandatory for the 9 Q. Was this a mandatory program that DuPont 9 construction division. And I would add that some of 10 had, or do you know? 10 the other divisions of DuPont were starting to do 11 A. The initial program by the construction 11 some sampling, but I think they were all waiting to 12 division was sort of their first round of sampling, 12 see how the sampling process worked, does it seem 13 let's give this a try. And they were actually making 13 like a good way to go about doing things. And 14 this sort of the first round of sampling; and then 14 everybody was looking then to adopt -- the whole 15 they went from construction division to a much wider 15 concept being who has the best method, and what 16 group of plants; and other divisions within DuPont 16 procedure are we going to adopt company-wide and 17 for their sampling program. 17 that's why they started out with one group of sites 18 Q. Okay. So is that like a yes, a no, or -- 18 to try. 19 A. Well, the construction division had 19 Q. So where are the air monitoring data from 20 construction going on; and it was kind of determined 20 '68 to '70? Where are those documents? 21 that in places where construction was going on, and 21 A. I don't know if some of them were included 22 insulation was being installed, those kind of places 22 in what you received or not. 23 would have been some of the worst case scenarios 23 This, I think, is much more a summary 24 under an industrial hygiene survey. 24 document. Certainly DuPont has this data. I've seen 25 So the construction division kind of 25 it. I can't tell you, well, it is in a certain memo Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 45 (Pages 173 to 176) 173 175 1 or certain location of what has been provided to you .1 Q. You don't -- that answer doesn't relate to 2 Q. I'll represent to you that I've gone 2 this situation where we don't know where this 3 through the documents and the only air monitoring 3 exposure data was taken, correct? 4 data I have are for the '80s. And so I would make a 4 A. Correct. I told you that this is an 5 formal request at this time for all that data from 5 average. So I would have to assume this is not just 6 1968 up through 1970 at this time. 6 one sample, but probably several samples that would 7 Now, this reference to Beaumont on page 2 7 have been taken. And these are representative of 8 of the June 1968 sample, do you have that in front o f8 what was being taken at the time; and without the 9 you? 10 A. Yes. 9 individual data, I can't tell you how many samples 10 were taken or where. 11 Q. Okay. Would it be important to know that 11 Q. Or how long, over what time, weighted 12 perhaps this air monitoring was going on inside the 12 average? 13 office and not -- not where workers worked? 13 A. Correct. 14 A. No. I think that because of the 14 Q. And so we don't know if this is over 30 15 description of where they were to do this monitoring , 15 minutes or if it is over 10 hours? 16 that it would not have been office samples. It would 16 A. I think most -- the indications in 17 have been as outlined in the documents, the dust 17 guidelines were these people were wearing these while 18 control program document that said, you take these 18 they were doing this job or if they worked at this 19 samples in the places where the greatest and most 19 particular job all day long. 20 likely exposure would be. And that would not be th 5 20 I saw indications, you know, that they 21 office. 21 worked for a period of time in the morning; and then 22 Q. Well, where would this be? 22 it was stopped; and they took a lunch break and then 23 A. Well, I think -- 23 it was started again, that kind of thing. 24 Q. At Beaumont? 24 MR. MADEKSHO: Objection. Non-responsive 25 A. At Beaumont? I do not know where they 25 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 174 176 1 took the samples. Many instances they were taking 1 Q. To answer my question, we don't know who 2 them in a place set aside for cutting up insulation, 2 was wearing anything if it was even somebody wearing 3 things like that. They would have been taking them 3 something, where they worked, what time, what else 4 in the dustiest conditions; but I cannot specifically 4 was going on around them, or what the time weighted 5 speak to that site location around Beaumont as to 5 average was, correct? 6 where they were taking samples without a document 6 A. Well, this is the time weighted average. 7 that might have outlined it. 7 What you see here is -- 8 And I will say I have seen many documents, 8 Q. For how many hours? 9 usually what you get is a piece of paper that the 9 A. -- particle count per cubic foot or fiber 10 industrial hygienist maybe identified who the person 10 count. That is what is reported here. You don't 11 was, who was wearing the sampler, how long they had 11 know whether the sample -- 12 it on, what kind of job they were doing; that kind of 12 Q. What period of time? Time weighted 13 thing. 13 average over what? 14 And then generally, you will see a piece 14 (Discussion off the record.) 15 of paper that indicates how many particles were on 15 MR. MADEKSHO: Dennis, I certainly do 16 the filter that that person was wearing, and then the 16 apologize. It is not my intention to interrupt 17 calculations for how much that is per milliliter or 17 anybody. If I speak, it is because I don't hear 18 cubic centimeter of air, that kind of thing. 18 anybody else speaking. Does that help you? 19 So generally, the data from the industrial 19 THE REPORTER: That would help a lot. 20 hygienist, whoever put the pump on the individual 20 THE WITNESS: Time weighted average is 21 indicated what that person was doing; and then you 21 just that. It is an average over time. 22 would get that from whoever did the particle counting 22 No, we do not have the total duration of 23 the information or data from the sampling. 23 sampling. 24 MR. MADEKSHO: Objection. Non-responsive. 24 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 25 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 25 Q. But we don't know over what period of time Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 46 (Pages 177 to 180) 177 179 1 it was, correct? 1 THE WITNESS: From what is on this piece 2 A. We do not know the duration the sample was 2 of paper, we cannot tell. I can only tell you I have 3 taken. Was it taken for 15 minutes, or eight hours, 3 seen data that exists on individual samples taken 4 or whatever. 4 that gives you a lot more information. 5 But it is an average over the period of 5 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 6 time of the sampling period; in other words, if I 6 Q. And that data has not been produced to us 7 could tell you a little bit more, time weighted 7 and is not here at this deposition, correct? 8 average, if a person wears a sampler for eight hours, 8 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 9 and you collect fibers or dust particles over that 9 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware that that data 10 eight hours, that says the average number of fibers 10 is in this collection or isn't in this collection. 11 during that period of time to which a person was 11 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 12 exposed was X; but that could have meant that that 12 Q. And earlier, do you recall being asked a 13 was the number for every hour of exposure or it could 13 question by DuPont's lawyer about other 14 mean the person was exposed to lots of particles the 14 asbestos-related diseases coming out of workers who 15 first hour and nothing for the other seven hours. 15 worked at these DuPont facilities during that time 16 But you have no way of knowing that if you 16 period. 17 have one filter collected over eight hours. What you 17 Do you recall that question? 18 get is a time weighted average. 18 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 19 MR. MADEKSHO: Objection. Non-responsiv e. 19 THE WITNESS: I think it was that there 20 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 20 were no complaints of asbestos-related diseases filed 21 Q. With all due respect, Dr. Stadler, I 21 during that period of time. 22 understand what a time weighted average is. And I 22 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 23 would appreciate an answer to the question rather 23 Q. And why is that important? 24 than an explanation of something else. 24 A. I think that at that particular point in 25 MR. COTTEN: Objection to the side-bar. 25 time, no one filed a complaint saying I have 178 180 1 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 1 asbestosis, and it came from my exposure at DuPont. 2 Q. I think it could make it much easier and 2 Q. But that's important because if there 3 much quicker if we were to do that. 3 aren't any complaints filed, then there probably 4 MR. COTTEN: Objection to the side-bar. 4 wasn't a problem, right? 5 MR. MADEKSHO: Do you understand? 5 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 6 THE WITNESS: I think I answered duratior 6 THE WITNESS: I'm not really sure. I 7 as being the appropriate term for what you were 7 can't really say. 8 asking. 8 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 9 MR. MADEKSHO: All right. 9 Q. Well, I mean, if there are no 10 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 10 asbestos-related illnesses filed at these premises 11 Q. And you don't know where this sample was 11 during this time period, isn't that what that that 12 taken in the Beaumont facility. We've established 12 question was meant to aver, that there's not an 13 that, right? 13 asbestos problem if there are no people getting sick? 14 A. Correct. 14 A. I would say that the issue is really that 15 Q. And you don't know over what period of 15 it's not like DuPont had this massive influx of 16 time this sample was taken, correct? 16 people with asbestosis when they began to look to see 17 A. Correct. 17 if they had an issue around asbestos, when they 18 Q. And you don't know who conducted the 18 became aware that insulation workers that were 19 sampling, correct? 19 studied by Dr. Selikoff were reporting diseases, one 20 A. Correct. 20 of the initial questions was, do we have on record 21 Q. And, in fact, we don't really even know 21 people who have gotten asbestosis or diseases related 22 that there was any other ventilation in addition -- 22 to asbestos within the DuPont Company. 23 we don't know what the circumstances were during 23 And I think -- I mean, there was really no 24 which this sampling was taken, correct? 24 problem initially asking that question because you 25 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 25 might, if you asked that question and you had a Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 47 (Pages 181 to 184) 181 183 1 problem, you might have a cluster of people at plant 1 trying to do at that time to figure out if there was 2 X, Y, Z who have all filed complaints, and that would 2 an issue. 3 tell you right away, yes, there is an issue at this 3 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 4 particular plant. 4 Q. In fact, we've already established that 5 But that did not occur during that 5 DuPont could have implemented dust control methods i 6 timeframe when they were trying to determine whethe 6 the 1930s, but it did not do that, correct? 7 there were issues for the company. 7 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 8 Q. And likewise, the clustering of people 8 THE WITNESS: I think DuPont had quite a 9 getting sick, would it be important to you to know 9 few dust control measures in place even longer ago 10 that there has been to date at least five other 10 than 1930. 11 DuPont workers or people at these DuPont plants 11 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 12 during this five-year time period who have died of 12 Q. We'll let the record speak for itself. 13 mesothelioma? 13 Would you agree -- 14 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 14 MR. COTTEN: Objection to the side-bar. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't think that anybody 15 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 16 is saying that no one was exposed to levels of 16 Q. Would you agree that it is a rule that the 17 asbestos that could not have made them sick. We kno V 17 employer warn employees working at their premises of 18 that mesothelioma is -- has got a pretty long latency 18 the hazards of their work? 19 period; and it's one of those things that when people 19 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 20 work with the material, it may be 20 to 40 years 20 THE WITNESS: I think that -- 21 later that they actually have disease. 21 MR. COTTEN: Excuse me. Objection, calls 22 So in a sense, it is not surprising. 22 for a legal conclusion, too. 23 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 23 THE WITNESS: Certainly in this day and 24 Q. So DuPont does not deny that exposure 24 age, with OSHA, there is a right to know law that 25 necessary to cause mesothelioma during this time 25 says people need to know what they're working with. 182 184 1 period occurred? 1 I think when you go back earlier than 2 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 2 that, certainly the concepts way back when really 3 THE WITNESS: I don't really know anything 3 were the company will protect people and will take 4 about exposures and when exposures would have 4 care and make sure that they are safe. 5 occurred that would have resulted in mesothelioma or 5 How much they told them about details is 6 any other disease within the DuPont Company. 6 really quite a bit different than the way we look at 7 All I can say is during this period of 7 things today. 8 time, between 1965 and '70, DuPont had no evidence 8 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 9 that people were getting sick from the handling of 9 Q. So back before OSHA, it is not necessary 10 asbestos on its plant sites. 10 to warn workers of the dangers of their work? 11 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 11 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 12 Q. And it's not important that there are at 12 THE WITNESS: I think that the company 13 least five other men who worked at DuPont, at DuPont 13 certainly tried to protect workers and indicate to 14 Sabine River who are dead of mesothelioma that worke:d 14 people, look, if you breathe dust it can be hazardous 15 there between '65 and '70? 15 to your health, that kind of thing. And they 16 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 16 certainly did everything they could to try to keep 17 THE WITNESS: I don't think I said that's 17 down dust levels within the company. I think that 18 not important. I think the issue right now is what 18 getting into details about, well, this particular 19 they were trying to do to determine whether or not 19 metal or this particular fume or these things could 20 people were being exposed to unsafe levels during 20 be hazardous, these are the details around them, were 21 that period of time right after they learned about 21 not part of the way to handle things. 22 these insulation workers in New York. 22 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 23 It really has nothing to do with the 23 Q. And that statement is based on something 24 overall of what we know today about asbestos 24 other than personal knowledge, correct? 25 illnesses; but it has to do with what they were 25 A. Personal knowledge around what they were Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 48 (Pages 185 to 188) 185 187 1 doing back in 1930, I have no idea. All I can do is 1 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 2 read the documents that are available. 2 Q. Do you believe it would be reckless if 3 Q. Such as what we have done today, correct? 3 DuPont chose to ignore this rule? 4 A. That's right. 4 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 5 Q. How long has it been a rule that employers 5 THE WITNESS: Well, I just can't concede 6 must warn employees of the hazards of its work? 6 because DuPont long before rules were in place was 7 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 7 doing its best to protect its workers. And I think 8 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure how long the 8 they realized back when some of the black powder 9 right to know laws have been in effect. 9 mills had explosions that they needed to do 10 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 10 everything possible to protect our people. 11 Q. How long -- 11 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 12 A. Certainly OSHA had a lot to do with that 12 Q. So the answer to that question is yes, it 13 kind of warnings to people. 13 would be reckless if a company chose to ignore this 14 Q. So before OSHA, really no rule? 14 rule? 15 A. There may have been individual state 15 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 16 rules, that kind of thing; and I'm not that familiar 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 with the various regulations to know. 17 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 18 Q. But would you agree this is an important 18 Q. And it would be unreasonable for DuPont to 19 rule? 19 not warn of the hazards of the products at its 20 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 20 workplace; correct? 21 THE WITNESS: I think it is very important 21 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. Over -- 22 that workers know about the potential hazards in the 22 THE WITNESS: I think. 23 workplace. We've certainly developed many method s, 23 MR. COTTEN: Excuse me. I think that's an 24 material safety data sheets, all that kind of thing 24 unfair question, it is so broad. I'm going to 25 that makes it easier for people to know and 25 instruct the witness not to answer that question 186 188 1 understand hazards that are associated with what the y1 unless you can narrow it and be more specific. 2 work with. 2 MR. MADEKSHO: Really? 3 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 3 MR. COTTEN: Yes. 4 Q. And would you agree that this rule applies 4 MR. MADEKSHO: Are we going to get Judg 5 to your company? 5 Davidson on the phone? 6 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 6 MR. COTTEN: I don't know. 7 THE WITNESS: Well, the right to know laws7 MR. MADEKSHO: I'm entitled to an answer 8 apply everywhere within the United States. 8 to that question. 9 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 9 MR. COTTEN: Restate the question. 10 Q. I'm actually not talking about law. I'm 10 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 11 talking about an obligation of DuPont to protect its 11 Q. Do you agree it would be unreasonable for 12 workers. 12 DuPont not to warn its workers of the hazards of its 13 Do you agree that that's very important? 13 workplace? 14 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 14 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 15 THE WITNESS: I think DuPont felt an 15 THE WITNESS: I think that it would be 16 obligation to protect its workers, yes. 16 unreasonable not to warn people that there are 17 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 17 dangers and give them advice on how to protect 18 Q. Do you believe it would be dangerous if a 18 themselves. 19 company chose to ignore this rule? 19 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 20 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 20 Q. Would you agree that if DuPont chose not 21 THE WITNESS: I think it would be 21 to warn workers of the hazards of its workplace, 22 unethical for a company to not want to protect its 22 DuPont should be responsible for the harm that it 23 workers. I think the way they handled that in terms 23 caused a worker? 24 of protection may have varied from one company to 24 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 25 another. 25 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what you mean Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 49 (Pages 189 to 192) 189 191 1 by that. 1 used as exhibits to this deposition, correct? 2 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. That if DuPont killed Mr. McGlothlin or 3 Q. You recall him testifying about the 4 contributed to his dying of mesothelioma, that it 4 circumstances surrounding the actions and activities 5 should be responsible for that? 5 as indicated in the documents? 6 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 6 A. Yes. 7 THE WITNESS: I think if it is shown that 7 Q. Have you also read the testimony of others 8 somehow DuPont did something to harm Mr. McGlothlin, 8 including Ron Wetzig concerning implementing the 9 then there are ways to deal with that. 9 program as indicated in the -- the dust control 10 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 10 program as indicated in the documents? 11 Q. By exposing him to asbestos? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 12 MR. COTTEN: Chris, there's one thing that 13 THE WITNESS: Exposure would have to be 13 I need to do to clarify the record; and with your 14 proved to be in some way harmful to him to be a risk 14 permission, I'd ask that the witness leave the room 15 and the kind of exposure would have to be shown to 15 so that I can do it without in any way prejudicing 16 have caused his disease. 16 any further testimony that she might have as a result 17 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 17 of my comments. 18 Q. You agree that the risk of severe injury 18 Is that all right with you? 19 or death is always unreasonable or unacceptable if it 19 MR. MADEKSHO: Sure. 20 can be prevented? 20 MR. COTTEN: If you would, please? Take 21 MR. COTTEN: Objection. Form. 21 the microphone off? 22 THE WITNESS: If that is truly an exposure 22 (The witness left the room.) 23 to something that causes a health problem, that is 23 MR. COTTEN: Let the record reflect the 24 not acceptable. 24 witness has left the room. Chris, I don't know why 25 BY MR. MADEKSHO: 25 we have a little bit of disconnect about what 190 192 1 Q. If a manufacturer knew that there is no 1 materials have been provided to you. 2 safe level of exposure to a toxicant, is that 2 You made a request -- a formal request on 3 important to tell a user? 3 the record for the production of air monitoring data 4 A. I think that from my position, it is 4 from Beaumont and Sabine, and made a representation 5 possible to protect anyone from exposure. And saying 5 on the record you have not been supplied that data. 6 there is no safe level of exposure is not something 6 MR. MADEKSHO: All right. I mean, I 7 that I would agree with. There are levels that can 7 haven't seen it. I mean, if you all can point me to 8 be deemed safe and there are levels that can be 8 the Bates numbers, perhaps I'm wrong. But believe 9 deemed harmful. 9 me, I spent many, many hours. Many hours poring over 10 MR. MADEKSHO: I have no further 10 all these documents that I got. And I have not seen 11 questions. 11 those. 12 I'll pass the witness and reserve the 12 MR. COTTEN: Let me bring your attention 13 remainder of the questions that I have for the time 13 to several different items. 14 of trial and after the production of the documents 14 First of all, you were provided with 15 that I have requested at this deposition today. 15 materials that had been reviewed by Dr. Stadler 16 MR. COTTEN: Just a couple of redirect 16 specifically for this deposition. Among those 17 questions. 17 documents prefix DUP 0387677-7678, and 0387692-7692. 18 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DuPONT 18 That includes Sabine River Works air 19 BY MR. COTTEN: 19 monitoring data. 20 Q. Dr. Stadler, I think you indicated that 20 MR. MADEKSHO: Okay. Thanks. That's for 21 you had read Ken Keuper's testimony previously, 21 '68 to '70? 22 correct? 22 MR. COTTEN: I think it includes at least 23 A. Yes. 23 1970. 24 Q. And he was an author of several of the 24 And then if you would - 25 documents that have come into -- have been marked and 25 MR. MADEKSHO: If you all sent it to me, Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127 Judith A. Stadler, Ph.D. 8-13-2009 50 (Pages 193 to 195) 193 1 you sent it to me. 1 (Whereupon, at 4:34 p.m., the taking of 2 MR. COTTEN: Yes, sir, I just want to make 2 the instant deposition ceased.) 3 it clear for the record since you made a formal 3 4 request for it. I want to be clear. 4 5 MR. MADEKSHO: I appreciate that. Larry, 5 6 listen, if I have it, I have it. If I just happened 6 Signature of the Witness 7 to miss it, I don't remember it, then shame on me. 7 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN to before me this 8 MR. COTTEN: I'm not trying to shame you. 8 , 20 . 9 I'm just trying to point out specifically where it 9 10 is. You asked for the DUP numbers. 10 11 You were also provided with DUP number 11 Notary Public 12 0503545 through 3576 which are Beaumont Works a r 12 My Commission Expires: 13 monitoring data. 13 14 In addition to that, a document that you 14 15 introduced into the record starting with DUP 042849! 15 16 and thereafter, which is the April 12, 1978 document 16 17 concerning asbestos that included a list of different 17 18 asbestos-containing materials by trade name, the last 18 19 two pages of that exhibit of yours includes Sabine 19 20 River Works asbestos sampling data, although -- 20 21 MR. MADEKSHO: There's -- I've seen some 21 22 of that. But I'm talking about what we got here at 22 23 the deposition, what we've -- what was put in front 23 24 of Dr. Stadler during her direct. 24 25 MR. COTTEN: Okay. I just wanted to be 25 194 1 sure that -2 MR. MADEKSHO: No. I've seen some of 3 that. But I have not seen such as what was subject 4 to direct examination today. 5 MR. COTTEN: Actually, it was part of the 6 documents that were sent to you. I'm sorry that you 7 missed them. 8 And with that, I'll pass the witness; and 9 if anybody else has any more questions, I'll ask her 10 to come back in the room. 11 MR. MADEKSHO: Anybody? 12 I mean, I'm good. 13 MR. COTTEN: Okay. 14 MR. MADEKSHO: All right. Well, tell the 15 Doctor to have a safe trip home. Larry, you have a 16 safe trip home. Anyone else who is not attending 17 telephonically like me, you all have a safe trip 18 home. 19 MR. COTTEN: Thank you very much. 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Here marks the end of 21 videotape number 4, also marks the end of today's 22 proceeding in the deposition of Dr. Judith Stadler. 23 Going off the record. 24 The time on the video screen is 16:34 and 25 53 seconds. 195 day Stratos Legal Services, LP 1-800-971-1127