Document wrrZmKkDy2d2J0X36G2vmd6bE

HALL0215 1 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT 2 THIRD JUDICIAL CIRCUIT 3 MADISON COUNTY, ILLINOIS 4 5 IN RE: ALL ASBESTOS LITIGATION ) 6 FILED BY THE SIMMONS FIRM, L.L.C. ) 7 Pi ai nti ffs , ) 8 vs. ) No. 99 AS SIM 9 A.P. GREEN REFRACTORIES, et al . , ) 10 Defendants. ) 11 12 The deposition of THOMAS J. hall, 13 called for examination, taken pursuant to the 14 provisions of the Code of Civil Procedure and the 15 Rules of the Supreme Court of the State of 16 Illinois pertaining to the taking of depositions 17 for the purpose of discovery taken before 18 CHRISTINE R. MACINTYRE, CSR No. 84-2776, a Notary 19 Public within and for the County of Cook, State of 20 Illinois, and a Certified Shorthand Reporter of 21 said state, at 920 East Northwest Highway, 22 Palatine, Illinois, on the 15th day of February, 23 A.D. 2002, at 11:20 a.m. 24 ' DUPLICATE FILE COPY d U ftitM , u c _ Page 1 2 HALL0215 1 PRESENT: (via telephonic communications) 2 THE SIMMONS FIRM, L.L.C., 3 (301 Evans Avenue, Suite 300, 4 Post Office Box 559, 5 wood River, Illinois 62095, 6 618-251-2222), by: 7 MR. WILLIAM A. KOHLBURN, 8 appeared on behalf of the plaintiffs. 9 10 PRESENT: 11 FOLEY & LARDNER, 12 (777 East Wisconsin Avenue, Suite 3800, 13 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202-5367, 14 414-297-5536), by: 15 MR. TREVOR 3. WILL, 16 appeared on behalf of union Carbide 17 Corporation and the Deponent; 18 HEYL, ROYSTER, VOELKER & ALLEN, 19 (103 West Vandalia, Suite 100, 20 Post Office Box 467, 21 Edwardsvi11e, Illinois 62025, 22 618-656-4646), by: 23 MR. KENT L. PLOTNER, 24 -and- 1 PRESENT: (Continued) 2 MAYER, BROWN, ROWE & MAW Page 2 3 HALL0215 3 (190 south LaSalle Street, A. Chicago, Illinois 60603-3441, 5 312-782-0600), by: 6 MR. MARK R. TER MOLEN, 7 appeared on behalf of Union Carbide 8 Corporation; 9 HOLLAND & KNIGHT, L.L.P., 10 (55 West Monroe Street, Suite 800, 11 Chicago, Illinois 60603, 12 312-263-3600), by: 13 MR. MICHAEL J. KANUTE, 14 appeared on behalf of International 15 Paper Co., Hammermill Paper Co., and 16 Champion international Co.; 17 BURROUGHS, HEPLER, BROOM, MacDONALD, 18 HEBRANK & TRUE, 19 (103 West Vandalia Street, Suite 300, 20 Edwardsvi11e, Illinois 62025-0510, 21 618-656-0184), by: 22 MR. NOEL L. SMITH, 23 appeared on behalf of Georgia-Pacific 24 Corporation and Marcal Paper Mills; 4 1 PRESENT: (Continued) 2 ROBERTS, PERRYMAN, BOMKAMP & MEIVES, P.C., 3 (One Mercantile Center, Suite 2300, 4 St. Louis, Missouri 63101, Page 3 HALL0215 5 314-421-1850), by: 6 MR. THOMAS 3. KERNELL, 7 appeared on behalf of Boise 8 Cascade Corporation; 9 HOLTKAMP, LIESE, CHILDRESS & SCHULTZ, P.C., 10 (217 North 10th Street, Suite 400, 11 St. Louis, Missouri 63101, 12 314-621-7773), by: 13 MR. A. RANDALL KNOPF, 14 appeared on behalf of Technical 15 Products Company, Inc.; 16 GREEN, SCHAAF & JACOBSON, P.C., 17 (7733 Forsyth Boulevard, Suite 700, 18 St. Louis, Missouri 63105, 19 314-862-6800), by: 20 MR. ALLEN P. PRESS, 21 appeared on behalf of Kimberly-Clark 22 Corporation; 23 24 0 5 PRESENT: (Continued) VEDDER, PRICE, KAUFMAN & KAMMHOLZ, (222 North LaSalle Street, Chicago, Illinois 60601, 312-609-7500), by: MR. JAMES V. GARVEY, Page 4 HALL0215 7 appeared on behalf of Unocal 8 Corporation; 9 SEGAL, McCAMBRIDGE, SINGER & MAHONEY, LTD., 10 (One IBM Plaza, Suite 200, 11 Chicago, Illinois 60611, 12 312-645-7800), by: 13 MS. KAREN RHEINGANS, 14 appeared on behalf of 3M, Albany 15 International, and Weavexx; 16 NELSON, MULLINS, RILEY & SCARBOROUGH, L.L.P., 17 (999 Peachtree Street, N.E., Suite 1400, 18 Atlanta, Georgia 30309, 19 404-817-6164), by: 20 MS. MELINDA L. MOSELEY, 21 appeared on behalf of Georgia-Pacific 22 Corporation; 23 24 1 PRESENT: (Continued) 2 KOHN, SHANDS, ELBERT, 3 GIANOULAKIS & GILJUM, L.L.P., 4 (One Firstar Plaza, Suite 2410, 5 St. Louis, Missouri 63101, 6 314-241-3963), by: 7 MR. JOSEPH F. YECKEL, 8 appeared on behalf of Bowater Page 5 6 HALL0215 9 incorporated and Bowater America, 10 Inc. ; 11 COLLIER, DORSEY & CARTER, 12 (3910 Lindell Street, 13 St. Louis, Missouri 63108, 14 314-533-6888), by: 15 MR. T. C. CARTER, 16 appeared on behalf of Sidener 17 Supply Co.; 18 O'CONNELL & O'SULLIVAN, P.C., 19 (217 North McLean Boulevard, Suite 2C, 20 Elgin, Illinois 60123, 21 847-741-4603), by: 22 MR. SEAN P. FERGUS, 23 appeared on behalf of John Crane Co. 24 and Scapa; c 7 1 PRESENT: (Continued) 2 ARMSTRONG, TEASDALE, SCHLAFLY & DAVIS, 3 (One Metropolitan Square, 4 St. Louis, Missouri 63102-2740, 5 314-621-5070), by: 6 MS. ANITA M. KIDD, 7 appeared on behalf of west Vaco Paper 8 Company and Weyerhaeuser Company. 9 10 Page 6 HALL0215 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 REPORTED BY: CHRISTINE R. MACINTYRE, 18 CSR No. 84-2776. 19 20 21 22 23 24 1 MR. PLOTNER: We'll go on the record. This 2 is Kent Plotner on behalf of union Carbide. This 3 is for the deposition of Thomas Hall that's been 4 noticed up for today's date. The deposition 5 itself has been noticed -- cross-noticed in two 6 different jurisdictions, one being Madison County, 7 "In Re: All Simmons Litigation" there, and the 8 other one is entitled on a notice, "in Re: All 9 Asbestos Litigation Filed by The Simmons Firm" in 10 the State of Missouri. There's no law number. 11 I think it's a defective notice. I 12 would object to this going forward under the Rules Page 7 HALL0215 13 of Civil Procedure for the State of Missouri and 14 that it is a deficient notice and has been 15 recognized by Judge Dierker as being a proper 16 notice in the past -- improper. If I said 17 "proper," sorry. 18 And with that, we will proceed at least 19 for purposes of this deposition under the Rules of 20 Civil Procedure for the State of Illinois, and I 21 guess the witness is ready to be sworn. 22 if anybody else has anything to add - 23 (WHEREUPON, the witness was 24 duly sworn.) 1 THOMAS J. HALL, 2 called as a witness herein, having been first duly 3 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 4 EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. KOHLBURN: 6 Q. Mrr.. Hall, can you hear me okay? 7 A. Yess,, sir. 8 Q. Okaayy. This is Bill Kohl burn, and I 9 represent some 10 litigation 11 Sir, have you ever given a deposition 12 before? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay Page 8 HALL0215 15 A. Once. 16 Q. Once, okay. Let me just ki i of remind 17 you of the ground rules. You need to wait until 18 I'm through asking my questions so that we are not 19 both talking at the same time. You also need to 20 try to give a verbal response as opposed to 21 nodding your head or shaking your head. The court 22 reporter can't take that down, for one thing, and 23 I won't know what you are saying, for another 24 thing, since I'm not sitting there looking at 0 10 1 you. 2 Do you understand all that? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 (WHEREUPON, Mr. T. C. Carter 5 entered the deposition 6 proceedings.) 7 BY MR. KOHLBURN: 8 Q. Okay. The prior deposition that you 9 gave, did it involve asbestos litigation in any 10 way? 11 A. Yes, it did. 12 Q. Okay. Can you recall approximately 13 when you gave that deposition? 14 A. January, I believe '89. 15 Q. Do you know what jurisdiction the cases 16 were in, what state? Page 9 HALL0215 17 A. The deposition was in Minneapolis. I 18 don't know the exact state. 19 Q. Okay. Let's start now and cover your 20 background. Could you please tell me where and 21 when you graduated from high school? 22 A. Kenton, Ohio, 1944. 23 Q. Okay. And what did you do upon your 24 graduation from high school? 11 1 A. I went to Carnegie Tech university. 2 Q. Okay. And did you obtain a degree from 3 Carnegie Tech? 4 A. I had a Bachelor of Science in 5 chemistry. 6 Q. Okay. And what year did you obtain 7 your degree? 8 A. 1949. 9 Q. Okay. And have you ever had any 10 mi 1itary service? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. Could you tell me when that was? 13 A. From - - let's see -- 1945 to 1946 in 14 the Navy, U.S. Navy. 15 Q. Okay. And after obtaining your 16 Bachelor' s Degree in 1949, have you obtained any 17 further degrees? 18 A. Yes. I have my Ph.D. Page 10 HALL0215 19 Q. 20 the way ? Okayy.. And did you get a Master's along 21 A. NO. 22 Q. Okay. 23 di d you get your 24 A. Uni ve 12 1 New York, and I finished work in November of '52, 2 and the degree was actually awarded at 3 commencement in June '53. 4 Q. Okay. During the time between 1949 and 5 1952 when you were working on your Ph.D., were you 6 also employed in any capacity? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Okay. In 1952 when you obtained your 9 Ph.D., what: did you do at that point? 10 A. I went to work for Union carbide. 11 Q. Okay. And at what location did you go 12 to work for union Carbide? 13 A. Mel 1 on Institute in Pittsburgh. 14 Q. Okay. And what was your position at 15 that time? 16 A. I don't: recall the title. I was 17 working in the laboratory there. 18 Q. Okay. Could you give me a brief 19 description of your job duties in the laboratory 20 there? Page 11 HALL0215 21 A. It was a customer technical service 22 laboratory, and we were primarily working and I 23 was working in the testing of solutions, the 24 analysis of solutions for customer use of Union 13 1 Carbide chemical products. 2 Q. Okay. Did any of your work at the 3 Mellon Institute as you began there involve 4 asbestos or asbestos-containing products? 5 A. No. 6 Q. okay. How long did you work in that 7 position? 8 A. One year. 9 Q. Okay, what was the relationship at 10 that point between union Carbide and the Mellon 11 Institute? 12 A. Union Carbide sponsored several 13 fellowships at Mellon institute which were 14 involved in, basically, customer service. There 15 was some basic research but mostly taking care of 16 customers. They had one from the chemicals area 17 that I was in and one for the bakalite plastics 18 division of union Carbide working on various 19 plastic formulations. 20 Q. Okay, when you were done with your one 21 year at the Mellon Institute, where did you go? 22 A. New York city headquarters of Union Page 12 23 Carbide. 24 Q. HALL0215 Okay. And what was your position at 14 1 that point? 2 A. I believe I was called a technical 3 representative. I am not sure. It was in the 4 fine chemicals division of Union Carbide chemicals 5 and plastics, and it was in the, again, technical 6 service and introduction of new products to the 7 customer. 8 Q. Okay. And could you give me a brief 9 description of your job duties in that position? 10 A. Yes. I was responsible for working up 11 contacts and possible product development work 12 with a number of customers concerning union 13 Carbide's acrolein derivatives product -- program. 14 Q. Okay. And how long did you remain in 15 that position? 16 A. I worked in that job for, let's see, 17 about three to four years. I was then promoted to 18 a product manager, having someone report to me, 19 and that went on for about another year, and then 20 I moved over to the union Carbide nuclear 21 division. 22 Q. In about what year did you move over to 23 the nuclear division? 24 A. Approximately 1958. Page 13 HALL0215 15 1 Q. 1958, okay. And when you moved to the 2 nuclear division -- well, strike that. 3 Prior to the time you moved to the 4 nuclear division, did any of your job duties 5 involve asbestos or products that contained 6 asbestos? 7 A. Not that I am aware of. 8 Q. Okay, when you moved to the nuclear 9 division in 1958, what was your position? 10 A. I was a -- I don't remember the title, 11 but it was technical representative. I was 12 working for a sales manager, Dr. Pufahl, who had 13 moved over to that division somewhat earlier also 14 from the fine chemicals division. 15 Q. And what did your job duties at that 16 time include? 17 A. Technical development, sales, at the 18 very beginning for vanadium and tungsten products 19 and then, later on, moving into the asbestos area. 20 Q. Okay. At approximately what point in 21 time did you move into the asbestos area? 22 A. Probably within the first year after I 23 started with the nuclear division. 24 Q. So about 1959? Page 14 HALL0215 16 1 A. I would guess that's about it, yes. 2 Q. Okay. And when you first went into the 3 asbestos area, what job duties were you 4 performing? 5 A. Again, new product development, trying 6 to find markets for asbestos. 7 Q. Okay. And what sorts of new products 8 were you trying to develop at that time? 9 A. we weren't sure. 10 Q. You weren't sure? 11 A. No. we were looking to find possible 12 applications for the asbestos deposit that had 13 been found in California. 14 Q. Can you recall some of the 15 possibilities that were under consideration at 16 that time? 17 A. Well, one of the logical ones would 18 have been the current -- current at that time 19 application for asbestos of a similar short fiber 20 such as in vinyl or asphalt floor tile. There 21 were a few, I believe, applications in certain 22 kinds of ceiling tile, in the acoustical tile that 23 were used for ceilings, for walls, building tile. 24 There was also the possibility, not too good a Page 15 17 HALL0215 1 one, for use in Transite, which is the asbestos 2 cement mixture used for pipe and various 3 construction things. 4 Q. Okay. How long did you remain in that 5 position? 6 A. what position do you mean? 7 Q. A technical sales representative in the 8 nuclear division dealing with the marketing of 9 asbestos from the mine in California. 10 A. With various job titles, I was in that 11 until 1968, various titles and various locations. 12 Q. Okay. And we'll cover those in detail 13 here in a minute. 14 where did you go in 1968? 15 A. In 1968 I was in Brussels, Belgium. 16 Q. Was that a transfer? were you still 17 working for Union Carbide? 18 A. Oh, yes. 19 Q. 20 1968 -- Okay. And when you went to Brussels in 21 A. No, I did not go -- 22 Q. -- were you no longer involved in the 23 marketing of the Calidria asbestos? 24 A. Let me correct your statement there. I Page 16 18 HALL0215 1 moved to Europe in 1966. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. I was -- all the time from `d9, when I 4 started working in asbestos with the nuclear 5 division, I was concerned with asbestos through my 6 transfer to Europe in 1966. In 1967 I moved from 7 Geneva, Switzerland, to Brussels, still having 8 responsibility for the asbestos in Europe at that 9 time. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. in about1968 the emphasis onasbestos 12 development in Europe was greatly reduced, and I 13 did not have anything much to do in that area, but 14 at the same time I had taken on other 15 responsibilities in the European marketing of 16 various petrochemicals, some of which were 17 produced in the States and some of which were 18 produced at the union Carbide facility in Antwerp, 19 Belgium, and then in 1969 -- I am getting ahead of 20 the story, but I moved from Brussels back to 21 Geneva in a totally different job. 22 Q. And how long did you remain in Geneva? 23 A. You mean totally? 24 Q. Yes, totally. 19 1 A. 2 1980. we moved back to the united States in Page 17 HALL0215 3 Q. okay. And during that time frame, that 4 approximately 1969 to 1980, did you have much to 5 do with the marketing of asbestos? 6 A. I had nothing to do with it. 7 Q. Okay, when you moved back to the 8 states in 1980, what did you do? 9 A. I was working in the management of 10 Union Carbide Europe. 11 Q. Okay. And at that point in time did 12 your job duties include anything to do with the 13 marketing of asbestos? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. Okay. And after you held that 16 position, what did you do? 17 A. In the end of 1985 I retired from Union 18 Carbide. 19 Q. Okay. And you are retired today? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Do you have any kind of contractual or 22 consulting arrangement with union Carbide today? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. Let's go back then, and if I understand 20 1 what you have told me, from about 1959 to 1966, 2 that's the period of time during which you were 3 involved in the marketing of Calidria asbestos in 4 the United States, correct? Page 18 HALL0215 5 A. Yes, with just one addition, it was 6 not called Calidria until after I moved to Europe. 7 Q. Oh, okay. They didn't start calling it 8 that until a little bit later? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. okay. At some point in time did you 11 have any involvement with efforts to market Union 12 Carbide asbestos to companies in the papermaking 13 industry? 14 A. Yes, I was probably the primary one 15 responsible for that, yes. 16 Q. Okay. Could you give me a brief 17 description of how that came about,since you said 18 that you're the one primarily responsible for 19 that? 20 A. When you say "come about," you mean how 21 we developed the plan to do it? 22 Q. Yes. I mean, it sounds like you're 23 telling me that this was your idea. 24 A. No, it was not my idea, but Dr. Pufahl a 21 1 and I were the two people in the sales/marketing 2 group for the nuclear division. Asbestos seemed 3 to be a prime prospect for building new business, 4 we thought that the possibility, based on some of 5 the physical properties of this Coalinga fiber, 6 were useful -- could be useful in the paper Page 19 HALL0215 7 industry, so we decided to try to introduce it 8 and, hopefully, to market and sell some to the 9 paper industry. 10 We started out to develop it -- I guess 11 this is what you want to know -12 Q. Yes. 13 A. --by taking the -- I believe it's the 14 annual review of the U.S. paper industry published 15 by -- I think it's TAPPI, the Technical 16 Association of the Pulp & Paper Industry. Each 17 year they have a guidebook, a register of all the 18 paper and allied to that paper industry factories 19 in the United States. I believe the United States 20 and Canada, actually. 21 We took that book and went through it, 22 picking out some of the major paper companies that 23 produced paper of types we thought or hoped might 24 have some possible interest in union Carbide 22 1 asbestos, we also tried to pick out some that, 2 based on our past history with Union Carbide 3 chemicals division, we would know might have a 4 reasonably open mind for technical developments. 5 We also tried to find paper companies 6 that had some other contacts with other divisions 7 of Union Carbide that we might call upon them to 8 have some introduction of technical people or Page 20 HALL0215 9 purchasing people within those companies to be 10 able to sell -- have a door-opener for getting in 11 and introducing the asbestos. 12 Q. Okay. Were there any kinds of studies IB or reports that you relied upon in making the 14 decision to try to market the asbestos to the 15 paper companies? 16 A. No. It was pretty much of a new 17 development to have -- to consider asbestos in the 18 paper industry. Some of the applications we were 19 talking about were ones that we knew expensive 20 chemicals were being used and there was a 21 possibility that in some of these applications our 22 asbestos would be an economical choice to replace 23 those expensive products. 24 Q. And so if I understand your testimony 23 1 correctly, this decision was primarily based just 2 on knowledge of the physical properties of the 3 Coalinga asbestos and knowledge of the physical 4 properties of certain materials used in 5 papermaking? 6 A. To some degree, yes. 7 Q. Okay. What I want to do now is I want 8 to go through a list here that I have got of some 9 paper companies and ask you a few questions with 10 regard to each one about contacts with them and Page 21 HALL0215 what you might know. This will get a little bit repetitive, so make sure you let me finish my 13 question so we have got a clean record on this. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. The first one is Boise Cascade. Did 16 you have any personal direct contact with Boise 17 Cascade? 18 A. what location? 19 Q. Any location. 20 MR. WILL: Excuse me, Bill, Trevor will, 21 lust to clarify the question, are you asking for 22 him personally now, or when you say "you," are you 23 talking about Union Carbide in general? 24 MR. KOHLBURN: I mean him personally right o 24 1 now. 2 MR. WILL: Okay. 3 BY THE WITNESS: 4 A. If I don't know what specific plant you 5 are talking about, I don't know. I would guess 6 that - 7 MR. WILL: Don't guess. 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. That's true. 9 BY MR. KOHLBURN: 10 Q. well, I don't want you to guess, but do 11 you have a general recollection of - 12 A. NO. Page 22 HALL0215 13 Q. -- who you had some contact with - 14 A. I do not have a recollection of many of 15 the plants I called on. As I said, we went 16 through the industry, and we probably picked out 17 100, 200 different mills that were possible 18 candidates to be interested. I called on a lot of 19 them, but to specify Boise cascade or many of the 20 others, I cannot do that. 21 Q. Okay. Well, we'll see if we can 22 refresh your memory here with this, and one thing 23 I want to make clear to you, too, is that when I 24 say, "Did you have any personal contact," I am not 25 1 limiting that to actually visiting a plant. I 2 would include talking on the telephone with an 3 employee or representative of Boise cascade. I 4 mean "contact" in a broad sense like that. 5 As you sit here today, can you recall 6 any agent or employee of Boise Cascade with whom 7 you might have spoken or met? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Okay. The two locations that I show 10 based upon records produced by union carbide to 11 which asbestos may have been delivered to Boise 12 Cascade are Oregon and Minnesota. Does that help 13 to refresh your memory at all as to any contact 14 you may have personally had with Boise Cascade? Page 23 HALL0215 15 A. Not specifically, no. 16 Q. Okay. Can you recall any particular 17 product that may have been manufactured, sold, or 18 distributed by Boise Cascade that may have 19 incorporated asbestos as the material ingredient? 20 A. I am not aware of any product they had 21 that incorporated asbestos. 22 Q. Okay. And I would also include any 23 mill trials or trial runs. Are you aware of any 24 mill trials or trial runs conducted by Boise 26 cascade - A. NO. Q. -- that might have involved asbestos as a material ingredient? A. No, I do not recall anything there. Q. Okay. The next one is a company called Bowaters, and the locations that I show -- and I only have states -- are South Carolina and Tennessee. Do you recall having any personal contact with Bowater? A. I called on Bowater once down in South Carolina, but details, who I talked to or even the subject, I do not recall. Q. Okay. Do you know if there was any sort of mill trial or trial conducted in conjunction with your visit? Page 24 HALL0215 17 A. No, sir. 18 Q. Okay. No, there wasn't one, or no, you 19 don't remember? 20 A. No, I don't recall. 21 Q. Okay. Do you recall any product that 22 was made, sold, or distributed by Bowaters that 23 might have contained asbestos as a material 24 ingredient? 27 1 A. No, I do not. 2 Q. Okay. The next company I have got here 3 is Prairie State Paper, and I believe they were 4 located in Joliet, Illinois. Do you recall any 5 personal contact with Prairie State Paper? 6 A. I don't remember ever hearing the 7 name. 8 Q. Okay. Then I guess you probablydon't 9 have any idea whether that company still exists or 10 has been purchased by another company? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. Okay. Would you have any knowledge or 13 information as to any product that Prairie State 14 Paper may have made that could have contained 15 asbestos? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. Okay. The next company I have got here 18 is Kimberly-Clark, and I show a number of Page 25 HALL0215 19 locations for them in terms of possible deliveries 20 of asbestos. That would be Michigan, California, 21 Massachusetts, Ohio, Alabama, and Wisconsin. Can 22 you recall any personal contact with 23 Kimberly-Clark or with any agent or employee of 24 Kimberly-Clark? 1 A. I recall calling on Kimberly-Clark in 2 Wisconsin and, I believe, in California. I do not 3 recall any of the people or what we talked about 4 specifically. 5 Q. okay. And can you recall what types of 6 products were being made at the locations at which 7 you called? 8 MR. PRESS: Let me just object to the extent 9 it calls for speculation, Bill. 10 Mr. Hall, you can answer. 11 MR. WILL: You can answer the question. 12 BY THE WITNESS: 13 A. No, except I know that in those 14 locations they made a variety of papers, paper 15 products. 16 BY MR. KOHLBURN: 17 Q. Okay. And do you have any knowledge or 18 information as to any product that may have been 19 made by Kimberly-Clark that might have contained 20 asbestos as the material ingredient? Page 26 A. NO. HALL0215 Q. Okay. Do you recall any personal contact with St. Regis Paper? A. Yes, I called on St. Regis Paper, their 0 29 1 laboratory in -- I think it's Nanuet, New York, on 2 the west coast -- west side of the Hudson above 3 New York City. I believe I called on one or two 4 of their plants. 5 Q. Okay. I show possible asbestos 6 deliveries from Union Carbide to St. Regis in 7 Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, the State of Washington, 8 Minnesota, and Ohio. Does that help to refresh 9 your recollection as to plants you may have called 10 on? 11 A. No, no more than I told you first, the 12 1aboratory, and I think they had a plant someplace 13 around the New York city -- upstate New York 14 area. I called there, I'in sure, and I know 15 several times I called at the laboratory over i n 16 Nanuet. 17 Q. Okay. Can you recall anybody from the 18 1aboratory at Minuet that you may know? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q- Okay. And can you recall what the 21 topics of discussion were when you called on the 22 lab at Minuet? Page 27 HALL0215 A. Nanuet. Q. Nanuet, I'm sorry. 0 30 1 A. The possible use of asbestos in paper 2 products. 3 Q. Okay. Can you recall the types of 4 paper products that were discussed at that point 5 in terms of possibly using asbestos as an additive 6 ingredient? 7 A. Not specifically, no. 8 Q. when you say "specifically," can you 9 recall the general type, even if you can't recall 10 a very specific type? 11 A. The two major product lines that I am 12 aware of that St. Regis had were container board 13 and various kinds of fine paper. I'm certain that 14 both those areas were discussed in a general way. 15 Q. Do you have any knowledge or 16 information as to any product that may have been 17 made, sold, or distributed by St. Regis that might 18 have included asbestos as a material ingredient? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. Okay. And I just want to clarify for 21 you here so that you understand what I am asking. 22 when I ask you about types of product, even if you 23 can't remember the very narrow type, if you 24 remember a broad range, like bond paper as opposed Page 28 HALL0215 D 31 1 to corrugated cardboard, I'd like you to go ahead 2 and tell me whatever it is you can remember, even 3 if it's not real narrow. 4 Did you ever have any contact with a 5 company that I believe is located exclusively in 6 the State of Washington called Longview Fibre? 7 A. Yes, I have had contact with them. 8 Q. Can you recall the names of anyone at 9 Longview Fibre? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Okay. Do you know in general what 12 types of products Longview Fibre made? 13 A. I believe they made wall board and 14 various fiberboard products. 15 Q. Okay. To your knowledge did they make 16 any paper product? 17 A. I don't recal1. 18 Q. Okay. Can you recall the general 19 substance of meetings or discussions between 20 yourself and Longview Fibre? 21 A. The same area of discussions as with 22 all the other paper companies, use of asbestos as 23 a retention aid. 24 Q. And do you have any knowledge or Page 29 HALL0215 32 1 information as to any product made, sold, or 2 distributed by Longview Fibre that may have 3 contained asbestos as a component ingredient? 4 A. I don't know of any of those, no. 5 Q. Okay. Did you ever have any contact 6 with Georgia-Pacific? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. Can you recall any particular 9 locations that were involved? 10 A. NO . 11 Q. Okay. Is there anyone who was an agent 12 or employee of Georgia-Pacific whose name you can 13 recall today? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. Okay. Can you recall the general topic 16 of discussions involving yourself and 17 Georgia- Pacific? 18 A. Nothing more than the general area of 19 asbestos used as a retention aid. 20 Q. Okay. Can you recall the types of 21 products that were being discussed? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Okay. Do you have any knowledge or 24 information as to any product that was made, sold, n " 33 Page 30 HALL0215 1 or distributed by Georgia-r'cific that might have 2 contained asbestos as a material ingredient? 3 A. NO. 4 Q. Okay. Did you ever have any contact 5 with International Paper? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Okay. Can you recall any particular 8 location involved? 9 A. I believe I called once at one of their 10 mills in upstate New York, like Fort Ticonderoga 11 or something like that. 12 Q. Okay. And can you recall the names of 13 anyone from International Paper? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. okay. Can you recall the general topic 16 of discussion between yourself and International 17 Paper? 18 A. No, the same as all, just a general 19 introduction for the properties -- beneficial 20 properties of asbestos. 21 Q. Okay. Do you recallany particular 22 type of product in a specific or a general sense 23 that was under discussion between yourself and 24 International Paper? 1 A. Not specifically, no. Page 31 34 HALL0215 2 Q. Okay. Do you have any knowledge or 3 information as to any product that may have been 4 made, sold, or distributed by International Paper 5 that might have contained asbestos as a material 6 ingredient? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Okay. Did you ever have any contact 9 with Weyerhaeuser? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. And can you recall the names of 12 anybody from Weyerhaeuser? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Okay. Can you recall any particular 15 location involved in your dealings with 16 Weyerhaeuser? 17 A. I called on various of their operations 18 in Oregon and Washington. 19 Q. Okay. Do youknow what types of 20 products were manufactured at the locations at 21 which you called? 22 A. I believe they did avariety of things, 23 bond paper, writing paper, probably newsprint, and 24 box board, container board. 35 1 Q. Okay. And other than -- I assume, that 2 you were there -- well, I won't assume anything. 3 Were you there to introduce asbestos to Page 32 HALL0215 4 them as a possible ingredient in papermaking? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. Other than that general topic, 7 can you recall anything more specific about your 8 discussions with Weyerhaeuser? 9 A. NO. 10 Q. Okay. Do you have any knowledge or 11 information as to any product made by Weyerhaeuser 12 or sold or distributed by Weyerhaeuser that might 13 have contained asbestos as a component ingredient? 14 A. NO. 15 Q. Okay. Did you ever have any dealings 16 with Simpson Lee Paper? 17 A. I believe I had, yes. 18 Q. Okay. Can you recall the names of any 19 employee or agent of Simpson Lee Paper? 20 A. NO. 21 Q. Okay. Do you have any knowledge or 22 information as to any product made, sold, or 23 distributed by Simpson Lee that may have contained 24 asbestos? 36 1 A. NO. 2 Q. Okay. Did you everhave anydealings 3 with Hammermill Paper? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. Can you recallthe names of Page 33 HALL0215 6 anyone from Hammermill Paper? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Can you recall any particular locations 9 involved in your dealings with Hammermill Paper? 10 A. I believe I called once in the Erie, 11 Pennsylvania, area, and I believe they had a 12 subsidiary someplace in western Massachusetts that IB I called on. 14 Q. can you recall the name of that 15 subsidiary in western Massachusetts? 16 A. NO. 17 Q. Okay. Does the name Strathmore sound 18 fami1iar? 19 A. Yes, that does sound like a familiar 20 name. I'm not sure that I connect that with 21 International -- yeah -- or with Hammermill, but 22 the name is familiar. If they were a subsidiary, 2B that could have well been who I called on. 24 Q. It's hard for me to remember who all 37 1 these things are, but I thought I'd ask if that 2 name was familiar to you. 3 What else -- do you recall anything 4 else about Strathmore? 5 A. I believe it was a fine paper 6 manufacturer, and that would have been a logical 7 one for us to call on. Page 34 HALL0215 8 Q. Can you recall the names of anyone from 9 Strathmore? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Okay, what about a company called 12 Manning? 13 A. In the paper industry? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. would you spell that? 16 Q. M-a-n-n-i-n-g. 17 A. No. I've heard the name, but I don't 18 recall it connected with the paper industry. 19 Q- Okay. And can you recall the names of 20 anyone from that company? 21 A. No, sir. 22 Q. Okay. Do you have any knowledge or 23 understanding as to any type of product made, 24 sold, or distributed by Hammermill that may have 38 1 contained asbestos as a component ingredient? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Okay. Did you ever have any dealings 4 with Scott Paper? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. Can you recall the names of any 7 employee or agent of Scott Paper? 8 A. Well, one of the employees of Union 9 Carbide came from Scott, Gene Cunningham. Page 35 HALL0215 10 Q- Okay. Did you work with 11 Mr. Cunningham? 12 A. Basically, he worked for me. 13 Q. Oh, he worked for you. Can you recall 14 when he came from Scott Paper to Union Carbide? 15 A. Early '60s, I believe. 16 Q. Okay. And do you know if 17 Mr. Cunningham is still living today? 18 A. No, sir. No, I do not recall. I don't 19 know 20 Q. You don't know, okay. 21 A. I have never had any contact with any 22 of those since I moved to Europe. 23 Q. Okay. So if I were to ask you for the 24 1 ast location of Mr. Cunningham that you know of, 39 that would be a location as of the mid to late 1960s? A. That's right. Q. Okay, what were Mr. Cunningham's duties when he worked for you? A. He was in the tech service, advising on possible applications of asbestos in the paper industry. Q. Okay. A. He came to us looking for a job. Q. Okay. Other than Mr. Cunningham, can Page 36 HALL0215 12 you recall the name of anyone who was an agent or 13 employee of Scott Paper? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. okay. And do you have any knowledge or 16 information as to any product that was made, sold, 17 or distributed by Scott Paper that might have 18 contained asbestos as a material ingredient? 19 A. NO. 20 Q. Did you ever have any contact with Fort 21 Howard Paper? 22 A. I don't specificallyremember. 23 Q. okay. Do you have any knowledge or 24 information as to any product made by Fort Howard 40 Paper that might have contained asbestos as a material ingredient? A. NO. Q. Did you ever have any contact with lames River? A. I don't think so. Q. Okay. Did you ever have any dealings with the Brown Company? A. For paper, no. Q. Okay. Did you have dealings with something called the Brown Company for something other than paper? A. I don't believe so, no. Page 37 HALL0215 14 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with that name 15 at all? Your voice - 16 A. No, I am not familiar. That's why I 17 was trying to recall any connection with paper, 18 and I do not recall any. 19 Q. I just wanted to make sure. It sounded 20 like you were a little bit hesitant, like you 21 might recall the name from somewhere. 22 A. I was checking the hard drive. 23 Q. Oh, okay, I got you. okay. Did you 24 ever have any contact with west Virginia Pulp & 41 1 Paper or West Vaco? 2 A. I believe I might have had one or two 3 phone calls, and that's all. 4 Q. okay. Can you recall the name of any 5 agent or employee of west Virginia Pulp & Paper or 6 west vaco? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. Okay. Do you have any knowledge or 9 information as to any product made, sold, or 10 distributed by West Virginia Pulp & Paper or West 11 vaco that might have contained asbestos as a 12 material ingredient? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Okay. Let's see. Sir, do you have any 15 knowledge or information as to whether or not Page 38 HALL0215 16 asbestos was ever used as a component in facial 17 tissues? 18 A. I have no knowledge of anybody ever 19 using it in facial tissue. 20 Q. okay. Do you have any knowledge or 21 information as to anyone running tests on the 22 application of asbestos as a component of facial 23 tissue? 24 A. Yes, I'm sure there were some tests 42 1 run. 2 Q. okay. As you sit here today, can you 3 recall any companies outside of union Carbide 4 involved in that type of a test? 5 A. Well, what do you mean by Union 6 Carbide? They had no facilities for testing on 7 tissue paper. 8 Q. well, no. I mean, if you were involved 9 in it -- I would imagine that Union Carbide was 10 involved in some fashion or another. I'm looking 11 for companies other than Union Carbide that may 12 have run such tests or been involved in running 13 such tests. 14 MR. WILL: Are you asking whether he knows of 15 any company that, for example, ran a mill trial? 16 MR. KOHLBURN: Yes. 17 BY THE WITNESS: Page 39 HALL0215 18 A. I am not aware of any company that 19 tried mill trial. I do think that several 20 companies ran small laboratory. If they had a 21 small pilot plant, they may well have run small 22 trials in that just to see what would happen in 23 tissue. 24 BY MR. KOHLBURN: 0 43 Q. Okay. And do you have any knowledge or information as to which companies may have conducted tests of that nature? A. No, sir. Q. okay. Your job duties in the marketing of asbestos to the paper industry, did that primarily consist of, for want of a better description, making initial contact? A. That was one of them, yes. Q. Okay. Did you have any type of responsibilities for following up and servicing established accounts? A. what do you mean by -- you mean people that were buying paper -- buying asbestos? Q. People who were buying asbestos for use in papermaking. A. Unfortunately, there weren't very many, if any, of those, but if we had had them, I would have been one of the -- either one of -- the Page 40 HALL0215 person or having one of my sales rep technical representatives calling on them, yes. Q. Okay. How many technical representatives did you have working with or for you? D 44 A. Well, that would - MR. WILL: Excuse me. Are we in the period up to '66 now when he's in the U.S.? MR. KOHLBURN: I am talking -- we are still between 1959 and 1966. MR. will: okay. BY THE WITNESS: A. we started out with one or two, and by the time I went to Europe, there were four regional technical representatives reporting to me. BY MR. KOHLBURN: Q. Okay. And at the time you left, if there were four regional technical representatives, does that mean that you had divided the country into four regions for purposes of area covered by your technical representatives? A. Yes, for ease of travel. Q. Okay. And could you tell me what each of those four regions encompassed? A. well, in a very general way, we had Page 41 HALL0215 22 someone in the northeast; we had someone in the 23 south; we had someone in the Midwest, and we had 24 someone on the west Coast. 45 1 Q. Okay. And at the time that you left, 2 who was the technical representative who was 3 servicing the northeast? 4 A. Tom van Fleet. 5 Q. Okay. And do you know whether Mr. van 6 Fleet is alive today? 7 A. I haven't the foggiest idea. 8 Q. Okay. And that means you probably 9 wouldn't know where he is located then? 10 A. That's right. That opens a lot of 11 doors. 12 Q. Okay, who was the technical 13 representative servicing the south as of 1966? 14 A. Richard Miller. 15 Q. Okay. And do you know whether 16 Mr. Richard Miller is still alive today? 17 A. No, sir, I do not. 18 Q. Okay, when is the last time you saw 19 Mr. Miller? 20 A . Before I moved to Europe. 21 Q. Okay. And who was servicing the 22 Midwest ias of 1966? 23 A. Dick stobaus. Page 42 HALL0215 24 Q. Okay. Could you go ahead and spell 1 that, please? 2 A. S-t-o-b-a-u-s. 3 Q. Okay. And do you know if Mr. stobaus 4 is alive today? 5 A. no, I do not. 6 Q. And when is the last time you saw him? 7 A. Before we went to Europe. 8 Q. And who was servicing the west Coast as 9 of 1966? 10 A. Ted Dougherty. 11 Q. Could you spell that one, too? 12 A. D-o-u-g-h-e-r-t-y, I think. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. And I don't know where he is. 15 Q- okay, other than the four men that 16 were filling these positions as of the time you 17 left in 1966, were there other people in technical 18 representative positions prior to 1966? 19 A. Yes. There was a Mike Brannen, who in 20 the earlier '60s was covering the Midwest for a 21 while. 22 Q. Okay. Can you recall any others? 23 A. NO . 24 Q. Did you ever work directly with Blair Page 43 HALL0215 47 1 Ingalls? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Could you just describe for me, in the 4 company structure, the type of way -- where you 5 and Mr. Ingalls fit with each other? Did he 6 work - 7 A. Mr. Ingalls worked at the laboratory in 8 Sterling Forest as one of the -- I don't know his 9 title -- as one of the technical support for the 10 sales/marketing activity for the asbestos. 11 Q. Okay. So during the time that you were 12 there, did he have any sort of sales 13 responsibilities? 14 A. No, only supporting sales. 15 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned, I guess, 16 that by the time you left in 1966, there were not 17 a whole lot of paper companies that were actual 18 asbestos customers, is that correct? 19 A. I don't recall that there were any that 20 were specific commercial customers. 21 Q. Okay. When you qualify that with 22 "commercial," were they customers of another 23 type? 24 A. no. They would have beencustomers who Page 44 HALL0215 48 1 might have bought a test quantity to make a pilot 2 run or maybe even a very limited mill scale run. 3 Q. Okay, can you recall any of the 4 companies that may have bought those kinds of 5 quantities to make a mill run or a trial run? 6 A. The only one I recall by the time I 7 left was what we call Wood Conversion, which was 8 not truly paper. I don't recall other paper 9 companies. I believe we did have a few that 10 were -- had maybe a few tons, but to make trial - 11 I don't remember which companies they were. 12 Q. What kind of a trial did Wood 13 Conversion run? 14 A. They ran some on their ceiling tile. 15 They ran tests. They found the product very 16 useful, and they bought commercial quantities. 17 Q. Okay. To your knowledge did Wood 18 Conversion make any paper type of products? 19 A. I don't believe that was their 20 business, no. 21 (WHEREUPON, Mr. Sean Fergus 22 left the deposition proceedings.) 23 BY MR. KOHLBURN: 24 Q. Okay. During the course of your work Page 45 49 HALL0215 1 between 1959 and 1966, were you ever informed or 2 given any kind of notification, correspondence 3 that there were potential health hazards 4 associated with asbestos? 5 A. Going into the varied product 6 development of asbestos, we were well aware that 7 there was a potential problem in the asbestos 8 industry with a malady called asbestosis. 9 Q. Okay. And when you say going into the 10 marketing of asbestos, does that mean in 1959? 11 A. sure, we knew that asbestosis was an 12 industrial illness, whatever you want to call it, 13 that was known. People had cases of asbestosis. 14 It was recognized in the press. 15 (whereupon, Mr. Sean Fergus 16 entered the deposition 17 proceedings.) 18 BY MR. KOHLBURN: 19 Q. Okay. And when you say "we," who does 20 that encompass? 21 A. We in union Carbide. 22 Q. And is this - 23 A. The people concerned with asbestos. 24 Other people might have had some knowledge, but I 1 couldn't speak for that. Page 46 50 HALL0215 2 Q. Okay. Can you recall the approximate 3 time and manner in which you first heard that 4 there were possible health i.azards associated wi th 5 exposure to asbestos? 6 A. Long before I started with union 7 Carbide. 8 Q. Okay. So this would be college years? 9 A. Sure. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. People in the scientific industry knew 12 that -- in science people knew that asbestos, just 13 like silicon, could be a potential cause for 1 ung 14 i njuri es, lung illnesses. 15 Q. Okay. Now, you mention that you were 16 aware of asbestosis even prior to your employment 17 with Union Carbide. Is there a point in time in 18 which you received any sort of notice or 19 information that there might be an association 20 between asbestos and cancer of the lung? 21 A. Received from whom? 22 Q. From anyone. 23 A. No, I can't pin that down to any 24 specific person or time. 1 Q. Okay. Even if you can't pin it down to 2 a particular source, can you pin it down to a 3 general time frame? Page 47 HALL0215 4 A. Are you talking cancer of the lungs 5 vis-a-vis asbestosis or as a result of 6 asbestosis? 7 Q. Cancer resulting from exposure to 8 asbestos. 9 A. No, I think probably first time I heard 10 about it was sometime in -- that there was a 11 further product possibility was in the middle 12 '60s. 13 Q. Okay. Is this some -- strike that, 14 is that information that would have 15 come to you during the course of your employment 16 or as a consequence of outside reading or 17 research? 18 A. I would guess primarily would have come 19 from some of the outside reports from Dr. 20 Selikoff's conference in New York City in the 21 middle '60s. 22 Q. Okay. Did you attend that conference, 23 by any chance? 24 A. No, sir. No, sir. 52 1 Q. Okay. Did you ever attend any sort of 2 industrial hygiene or health-related conference 3 where asbestos was one of the topics? 4 A. There was a conference in Oxford, 5 England, in 1967 set up by some of the British Page 48 HALL.0215 6 experts in asbestos to start some studies and to 7 report on some preliminary studies, I believe. 8 Q. And you attended that conference? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. Did your job duties ever involve 11 conducting dust counts or industrial hygiene 12 surveys? 13 A. Me personally? 14 Q. We'll start with that, you personally. 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did your job duties ever involve 17 overseeing people who were conducting dust counts 18 or industrial hygiene surveys? ' 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. Okay. During the course of your 21 employment with Union Carbide in the United 22 States, did you ever receive the results of dust 23 counts or industrial hygiene surveys in the 24 regular course of business? 1 A. I received reports of various health 2 studies, but I do not recall that there were 3 specific ones on asbestos that I received 4 personally. I heard secondhand, perhaps, but not 5 received directly, no. 6 Q. Okay. During the course of your duties 7 with Union Carbide when you were contacting Page 49 HAIL0215 8 various companies concerning the marketing of 9 asbestos, did you have discussions that you can 10 recall with any of those customers or potential 11 customers concerning the possible health hazards 12 of asbestos? 13 A. in general, asbestosis was always a 14 subject that, when you brought up the word 15 "asbestos," people said, "what about asbestosis," 16 and in that context, there were discussions. 17 Q. okay. Can you recall any particular 18 companies or individuals with whom you had those 19 types of discussions? 20 A. Not specifically, no. 21 Q. okay, other than questions being 22 raised about asbestosis, can you recall the 23 substance, either generally or specifically, of 24 any of those conversations? 1 A. The discussions of the asbestos in 2 relation to asbestosis were a general discussion, 3 and I don't recall; we possibly could have brought 4 it up ourselves because we felt we had a much 5 safer product to handle and for a customer to look 6 at and hopefully to use because it was a much 7 cleaner fiber, it was a -- very uniform. It was 8 in a pellet form, which was much easier and a much 9 less dust providing, provoking product for anybody Page 50 HALL0215 using asbestos. The status of asbestos in general, status of asbestosis was really a basis 12 of good housekeeping, just as any other industry 13 using foreign materials, fibrous materials. 14 Q. Okay, was it the policy and practice 15 of Union Carbide at that time to provide 16 information to customers or potential customers 17 concerning those housekeeping recommendations? 18 A. No. I don't think we felt it was our 19 position to go in and tell them how to run their 20 plant. We made the point that in any kind of 21 industry, a dust -- overly dusty atmosphere was 22 not good. 23 Q. Okay. And again, can you recall any 24 particular instance in which you were involved in 0 55 1 which you conveyed or passed along any particular 2 information to a particular customer? 3 A. Not in a specific, no. 4 Q. Okay. Other than the kind of 5 established parameters of your work here in this 6 area -- and we're still talking about the united 7 States, 1959 to 1966 -- other than paper 8 companies, were there other industries that you 9 personally dealt with in terms of marketing 10 asbestos? 11 A. Yes. Page 51 HALL0215 12 Q. Okay. Can you just tell me what those 13 industries were? 14 A. vinyl or floor tile, the phenolic 15 resin, not -- I forget -- asphalt, that's it, 16 resin floor tile which was replaced in most cases 17 by vinyl asbestos, we called on and talked to 18 people in the asbestos cement, the Transite type 19 of product. We talked to people in the ceiling 20 tile and the wall tile, we talked to people in 21 the joint cement which is used in installing 22 fiberboard walls, the walls where you put up a 23 plasterboard wall and use the joint cement. Those 24 were the major industries. 56 1 Q. Okay. Were you in any way focused or 2 specializing in the area of product sales to paper 3 companies, or were you literally dealing with any 4 kind of industry that pertained to asbestos? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. The latter? 7 A. Yes, the latter. 8 Q. Okay. Were there people within the 9 Union Carbide organization who had, as the focus 10 of their job duties, the marketing of asbestos to 11 companies in the papermaking industry? 12 A. Not any specific people. The people we 13 had as salespeople, technical representatives, Page 52 HALL0215 14 were trying to sell asbestos in any of the 15 applications where it might be useful. 16 Q. Okay. Were there particular people in 17 a support capacity who dealt primarily with paper 18 making and asbestos as opposed to other possible 19 application? 20 A. I believe Blair Ingalls and Gene 21 Cunningham over at the tech service laboratory 22 were mostly in paper because that was more their 23 background. 24 Q. Okay. If you were to name the -- well, 57 1 strike that. 2 would you please tell me the names of 3 the people from union carbide who, as far as you 4 know, would be the most knowledgeable concerning 5 paper products that may have contained asbestos as 6 a component ingredient? 7 A. You mean products containing Union 8 Carbide asbestos, or do you mean -9 Q. We'll start with that. 10 A. The names I mentioned to you probably 11 from a -- that point of view, the Blair Ingalls, 12 the Gene Cunningham, me. 13 Q. Okay. Is there anyone else other than 14 the three of you that comes to mind as someone who 15 might have some specific knowledge as to the Page 53 HALL0215 16 particular products that different companies might 17 have made that could have incorporated Union 18 Carbide asbestos as a material ingredient? 19 A. Those salespeople that I mentioned to 20 you earlier, possibly they may have at one time or 21 another or if one of their customers in their area 22 were using it. I don't believe any of them were 23 using it, but it's possible they might have known. 24 Q. Okay. 58 1 A. And it might have happened after I went 2 to Europe. 3 Q. Yes. The sales representatives, these 4 regional sales representatives, they weren't just 5 focused on the paper industry, were they? 6 A. No. 7 Q. They were like you; they were selling 8 or marketing - 9 A. Their prime purpose was to sell 10 asbestos, and .since we thought maybe the paper 11 industry would be the biggest market, they 12 probably spent more time on that, but they were 13 not totally paper people. 14 Q. okay. You asked me before to kind of 15 clarify a question about people knowing about 16 using asbestos in papermaking. You asked me if I 17 meant Union Carbide asbestos. Do you know of Page 54 HALL0215 18 anyone who has knowledge or information concerning 19 the use of asbestos other than Union Carbide 20 asbestos in the papermakir^ industry? 21 A. specifically people, no. 22 Q. Okay. Do you have any knowledge or 23 information concerning the use of asbestos other 24 than asbestos from Union Carbide in the paper- 59 making industry? A. NO. Q. Okay. At the time you were involved in this area, did Union Carbide have any competitors in selling asbestos to the papermaking industry? A. We occasionally heard that Johns Mansville was coming in and talking to people because they had another area in the same California deposit. We always felt that was 10 primarily for them to try to obtain commercial 11 information about what we were doing. 12 Q. Okay. When you say that the fiber that 13 was mined in California by union Carbide was 14 cleaner, could you explain to me what you mean by 15 that? 16 A. it started out as an ore that had a lot 17 less extraneous material than the typical asbestos 18 deposit in other parts of the world. It also was 19 cleaned up, purified, and got rid of some of the Page 55 HALL0215 extra material because of the wet process used in King City. Q. Okay. And you mentioned that it was sold in pellet form, was all of the asbestos that Union Carbide mined and sold pelletized? 60 1 A. No. 2 Q. Okay. Were there different grades or 3 types of asbestos that was sold by Union Carbide? 4 A. The basic fiber from the Coalinga 5 deposit was very uniform and very much of a 6 similar fiber size. There were various 7 formulations, I believe, to try to meet specific 8 end use requirements. I think they would, 9 perhaps, have put in certain additives, I believe, 10 if a customer wanted it. I think there was one 11 case where they put titanium dioxide as an 12 additive just to make it more useful for some 13 specific customer use. 14 There were other grades that they tried 15 to talk about and tried to introduce and promote 16 for other industries, like the floor tile, for 17 instance. 18 Q. You mentioned that they put some 19 titanium dioxide in to satisfy a customer's use. 20 Can you recall what customer that was? 21 A. no, I do not. Page 56 HALL0215 22 Q. Can you recall what type of product was 23 involved? 24 A. Well, it was for a product - a paper 61 1 product that had titanium dioxide to start with, 2 which normally would be something where brightness 3 and opacity were important, and that would be the 4 bond paper, the writing paper, something like 5 that, printing paper, not newsprint but high-grade 6 magazine printing stock things. 7 MR. kohlburn: okay. That's all I have. 8 THE WITNESS: That's good. 9 MR. PLOTNER: Any other questions? 10 MR. WILL: Can we take about three minutes, 11 and then I'm going to have a couple questions for 12 Dr. Hall . 13 MR. KNOPF: And I have got a couple 14 questions. 15 MR. WILL: Oh, you have got a couple 16 questions? 17 We are going to take about a three18 minute break to stretch here. 19 (whereupon, a recess was had.) 20 MR. KOHLBURN: There's one or two of my 21 preliminary things that I forgot. Can I do those 22 real quick? 23 BY MR. KOHLBURN: Page 57 HALL0215 24 Q. I guess it's Dr. Hall, not Mr. Hall, 62 1 since you have a Ph.D. 2 Could you please give me your date of 3 birth and your current age, please? 4 A. I was born 17 January, '27. I was 75 5 last month. 6 Q. Okay. And could you give me your 7 current address, please? 8 A. 1246 West Illinois Avenue, Palatine, 9 Illinois, 60067. 10 Q. Okay. And when we sent out the notice 11 of deposition here, we also included a request for 12 documents, and I clarified that with the local 13 counsel for Union Carbide that what we were asking 14 for was anything that you had retained personally 15 that would relate to the asbestos that was mined 16 and sold by Union Carbide or the companies we 17 talked about today. 18 Did you have any documents or paperwork 19 of that nature? 20 A. The only thing I have is a copy of the 21 deposition I made up in Minneapolis in '89. 22 MR. KOHLBURN: okay. And Kent, I don't think 23 I have got that, if at some point you can just 24 try to get a copy of that to me, I'd appreciate Page 58 HALL0215 63 1 it. 2 MR. PLOTNER: I think it's been identified 3 before as one that you've been given in our 4 disclosure, but - 5 MR. kohlburn: we may have a copy. I'll 6 check. 7 There is no other documents he had? 8 MR. WILL: He didn't take anything with him, 9 if that's what you mean. 10 MR. KOHLBURN: okay. That's all I have got 11 then. 12 EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. KNOPF: 14 Q. Dr. Hall, my name is Randy Knopf, and I 15 represent a company called Technical Products 16 Company, Incorporated, out of St. Louis, and I 17 just have about four questions for you. 18 Have you ever heard of Technical 19 Products Company, incorporated? 20 A. No. 21 Q. All right. Did you ever distribute or 22 market or sell asbestos products to any companies 23 in St. Louis, as far as you can recall? 24 A. NO. Page 59 HALL0215 64 1 Q. Okay, when you talk about ceiling tile 2 and building tile, can you just expand on what you 3 were talking about a little bit, what it is you 4 did with the asbestos? 5 A. Ceiling tile like this ceiling up here, 6 wallboard that they put up the four-by-eight 7 sheets on the side where you have plasterboard 8 wal1s. Q. And do you remember any company names 10 that you dealt with with the ceiling tile? 11 A. Armstrong Corp., they make it. I don't 12 think that I recall they ever tried to use it, but 13 they do make it. we talked to them primarily 14 about vinyl1 asbestos floor tile. 15 Q. And where is Armstrong Corp. based out 16 of, as far as you can recall? 17 A. Last I knew their headquarters are i n 18 Lancaster, Pennsylvania. I don't think they - - I 19 think it's a different name now, but I am not 20 sure. 21 Q- Okay. Thank you. And do you -22 A. The other company was wood Conversion. 23 Q. Okay. I know you talked about them 24 A. Yes. Page 60 65 HALL0215 1 Q. Do you have any idea who might be a St. 2 Louis distributor of union carbide asbestos 3 products? 4 A. I am not aware that they ever had any 5 distributors. 6 MR. KNOPF: Thank you, sir. I have no 7 further questions. 8 MR. will: Anybody else? 9 EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. WILL: 11 Q. Dr. Hall, I have just a couple of 12 questions for you. 13 You were asked about whether there were 14 various grades or formulations of the asbestos 15 fiber sold by union Carbide. Do you recall that 16 line of questioning? 17 A. Yes, yes. 18 Q. And where did all of the asbestos come 19 from in those various grades? 20 A. All the asbestos in any of these grades 21 came from the mine in Coalinga, California. 22 Q. Was that, to your knowledge, the only 23 mine Union Carbide had for its asbestos? 24 A. As far as I know, that's the only place 66 1 they ever got any asbestos, yes. 2 Q. So that regardless of the grade or the Page 61 HALL0215 3 additive, the asbestos fiber came from the same 4 pi ace? 5 A. Yes, yes. 6 Q. You were asked just asecond ago a 7 question about ceiling tiles, and you said, "Like 8 we have here." By that were you referring to the 9 ceiling tiles in the conference room? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And that's a 1 aid-in acoustical ceiling 12 ti 1 e? 13 A. It's acoustical ceiling, and I believe 14 the primary content is wood fiber with certain 15 additives to make them white, to cover up the 16 wood, and, when they get a leak, to soak up the 17 water. 18 Q. And just' so I am clear, with respect to 19 Armstrong Corp., you said, to your knowledge, you 20 did not sell any fiber for Armstrong ceiling tile? 21 A. I am not aware that they even looked at 22 it for that. He only asked me who was -- who 23 manufactured it of people we talked to. 24 Q. okay, you mentioned several times that 67 1 in terms of marketing asbestos to the paper 2 industry, you were marketing it as a retention 3 aid, is that right? 4 A. Yes, yes. Page 62 HALL0215 5 Q. And are there particular types of paper 6 that would benefit from this retention aid? 7 A. Yes. The primary retention property 8 that we were looking for was for the retention of 9 various fillers, clays, silicates, titanium 10 dioxide, calcium carbonate, the various fillers 11 and opacifying or whitening agents. 12 They, also, sometimes in paper were 13 using various organic compounds that might be used 14 for -- to give them certain softness and certain 15 properties in the piece of paper, and it was found 16 the asbestos was a good means of retaining - 17 keeping a lot of that from going through the 18 screen when they were drying and having to be 19 recirculated or being lost totally. 20 The other possibility was the small 21 fibers that would also be lost, and there were 22 occasional opportunities that that would help - 23 the asbestos would help retain those, too. 24 Q. And what types of papers would be using 68 1 the clays or the fillers or the opacifying agents? 2 A. Papers for printing or various 3 decorative papers, ones where they wanted to have 4 it, writing papers, bond papers; they sometimes 5 would use titanium dioxide. 6 Q. was facial tissue or toilet tissue or Page 63 HALL0215 7 paper towels a primary marketing emphasis of Union 8 Carbide for its asbestos? 9 A. At the beginning we thought it might 10 be, and as it turned out, the paper industry was 11 basically not interested in using it for that 12 because of a -- the possibility that the asbestos 13 fiber might show up as lumps or something in the 14 paper. It was too fine; not fine "good" but too 15 fine "thin," transparent. 16 Q. Okay. You mentioned Gene Cunningham as 17 somebody who worked in the Union Carbide 18 laboratory, is that correct? ' 19 A. He was one of the technical 20 assistants. He worked in the laboratory in 21 Sterling Forest, and he was providing paper mill 22 experience and technical help to the salesmen. 23 Q. Okay. And you mentioned he had come 24 from Scott Paper? 69 1 A. He came from Scott Paper. Probably he 2 was one of the reasons that there was not much 3 emphasis put on using the asbestos in tissue and 4 towel -- fine paper, toilet tissue and Kleenex 5 type of thing because he was very sure that we 6 were wasting our time trying to sell to that 7 industry because it just didn't fit into it. 8 Q. Okay. You were asked some questions Page 64 HALL0215 9 about what you may have told to customers about 10 asbestos and potential health hazards, and I don't 11 want to get into the specifics of that. I just 12 want to ask you, in general, what was your 13 impression of union Carbide's corporate philosophy 14 in terms of what information they shared with the 15 customers regarding potential health hazards. 16 MR. KOHLBURN: I am going to object to form 17 on that. I think it calls for speculation. 18 MR. WILL: well, I'm asking him for his view 19 as somebody who was with the company during that 20 time, what he understood the company's philosophy 21 or practice to be. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay? 23 BY MR. WILL: 24 Q. Let me rephrase the question so it's 1 clear, what I am asking you, Doctor, is: During 2 the time that you were with the company, to your 3 understanding what was Union Carbide's philosophy 4 and instructions to its marketing people about 5 sharing information with customers regarding 6 potential health hazards of asbestos? 7 A. The general philosophy was to be open 8 with the customers, to tell them everything that 9 we knew to be reliable information, we did not 10 feel there was any great reason to speculate on Page 65 HALL0215 11 individual reports, which were sometimes 12 self-serving, and we did not in any way try to 13 play down the possibility that asbestosis was 14 always a possibility and the.-- our, Carbide, and 15 other health professionals consistently said that 16 if you lived and your plant operation was within 17 the accepted and required threshold limit values 18 for fibers, you were not taking a chance, the 19 people using it. it came down to a question, we 20 strongly encouraged each one of the potential 21 testers or users to use good housekeeping. 22 Q. And did you believe that the pelletized 23 product could help people stay within the 24 regulatory limits? 71 1 A. We very much believed it, and customers 2 who were proposing to use it confirmed that. 3 Q. Final topic, Doctor, you several times 4 here have been asked about details and said that 5 you have no present memory. Before the deposition 6 today, did you have an opportunity to go through 7 all of union Carbide's document collection and 8 look for materials that might have been generated 9 by you or with your name on them? 10 A. i had no access to any of those files, 11 if they exist. 12 Q. And if you had an opportunity to review Page 66 HALL0215 13 documents that you may have generated or may have 14 been sent to you, might that refresh your memory 15 on some of the things you have been asked about 16 today -17 A. Oh, of course. 18 Q. -- enable you to pinpoint times or 19 identify people? 20 A. Times and people, locations. 21 Q. And even events maybe? 22 A. Yes, yes. 23 MR. WILL: Okay. Thank you. That's all I 24 have. 1 MR. kohlburn: I have got a couple questions 2 on redirect here. 3 FURTHER EXAMINATION 4 BY MR. KOHLBURN: 5 Q. Sir, when you said that the coalinga 6 mine was the only place that you know of from 7 which Union Carbide got asbestos, do you mean that 8 that's the only place you know of where they mined 9 asbestos? 10 A. As far as I know, that was the only 11 asbestos deposit union Carbide Corporation ever 12 operated. 13 Q. I just want to clarify that you were 14 talking about mining. You are not trying to make Page 67 HALL0215 15 any representations as to purchases of asbestos by 16 Union Carbide or anything of that nature? 17 A. No, sir. No, sir. Only the project 18 that we are talking about here, the Coalinga 19 asbestos usage. 20 Q. Okay, with regard to tissues and 21 towels, are you aware of statements made by Union 22 Carbide in its advertising materials indicating 23 that certain mills were using union Carbide 24 asbestos in their tissue and towel products? 73 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. okay. Do you know the names of any 3 individual or individuals who were responsible for 4 the content of Union Carbide's advertising to the 5 paper industry with regard to asbestos? 6 MR. will: Again, you are talking about this 7 1959 to '66 time frame? 8 MR. kohlburn: Well, I mean, if he knows of a 9 name from outside that time frame --we'll limit 10 it to the American market. 11 MR. WILL: Okay. 12 BY THE WITNESS: 13 A. no, I don't think I know of anybody 14 that is responsible. I mean, publications like 15 that, of,course, went through a normal corporate 16 public relations where they published technical Page 68 HALL0215 17 bulletins. Who might have put those together and 18 who might have alluded to a -- anything more than 19 a mill trial, I have no idea. 20 BY MR. KOHLBURN: 21 Q. Could you tell me which departments 22 within Union Carbide would have had responsibility 23 for the content of advertising in journals and 24 magazines circulated with the paper industry? 74 1 A. Well, the people who would instigate 2 such a thing would be somebody in the business 3 area of the asbestos project. 4 Q. okay. Now, was that part of your 5 department or outside of your department? 6 A. When I was doing it, it would have been 7 something that I would have been responsible for, 8 yes. 9 Q. okay, with regard to the health 10 hazards of asbestos, I think you indicated that 11 you would pass along information from reliable 12 sources to the customers, is that correct? 13 A. well, from reliable sources and then 14 put together in a proper toxicological format and 15 using the right words. Those words would be 16 chosen by the toxicology department of the -- of 17 Union Carbide Corporation. I didn't write those 18 things myself. They would -- because they have a Page 69 HALL0215 19 lore and a way of writing those things, just as 20 every other profession, even lawyers, to say 21 things in a certain way, and that was how it was 22 put out, and we made those papers -- had them put 23 together by the toxicological department, and they 24 were then offered to the customers. 75 1 Q. okay. And did you limit yourself in 2 providing information on health hazards to 3 materials that were produced by Union carbide and 4 provided to you by Union Carbide for that purpose? 5 A. The carbide products were certainly 6 considered, and in cases where it was appropriate, 7 if there was any comparison to be drawn, they were 8 noted, the comparison and good or bad. we did not 9 in any way try to edit what we were putting out to 10 make it look better. Carbide had -- we think had 11 a reputation of trying to be honest with people 12 and to try to give them the information. At the 13 same time we were not trying to rumor-monger on 14 things that were data not yet really proven. 15 Q. I want to make sure you understand my 16 question. I am talking about you personally. 17 Were you limited to conveying information that was 18 authorized or approved or provided by Union 19 Carbide as opposed to being free to mention what 20 you may have learned on your own somewhere? Page 70 HALL0215 A. We were very definitely free to talk on as to what we learned. Q. And if you learned something from a reliable source, you would convey that Q 76 1 information, is that correct? 2 A. I would relay it with the -- my proper 3 understanding of how reliable it really was. 4 Q. Did you regard Dr. selikoff as a 5 reliable source or an unreliable source? 6 A. Do I have to answer that? I think he 7 was very much of a self-serving man. 8 Q. So it would not have been your practice 9 then to convey information obtained from reading 10 materials from Dr. Selikoff to your customers? 11 A. information that came out of his 12 conference in '67 or whenever -- no -- '64 was 13 certainly publicized widely, and it was discussed, 14 and in the carbide toxicological reports, that 15 information was taken into account. 16 MR. KOHLBURN: Okay. Thank you. That's all 17 I've got. 18 MR. will: I think we are done. Okay. 19 Thanks, Bill. 20 MR. kohlburn: Thanks a lot. Thanks for 21 indulging my need to do this by phone. 22 MR. WILL: we are going to reserve Page 71 23 signature. 24 HALL0215 FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NOT. 77 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT 2 THIRD JUDICIAL CIRCUIT 3 MADISON COUNTY, ILLINOIS 4 5 IN RE: ALL ASBESTOS LITIGATION ) 6 FILED BY THE SIMMONS FIRM, L.L.C. ) 7 Piaintiffs, ) 8 vs. ) NO. 99 AS SIM 9 A.P. GREEN REFRACTORIES, et al., ) 10 Defendants. ) 11 12 I certify that I have read the 13 transcript of my deposition, consisting of Pages 1 14 to 76, inclusive, and I do again subscribe and 15 make oath that the same is a true, correct and 16 complete transcript of my deposition so given, and 17 includes changes, if any, so made by me. 18 19 20 THOMAS 3. HALL 21 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO 22 before me this day 23 of , A.D. 20 24 Notary Public Page 72 HALL.0215 0 78 1 STATE OF ILLINOIS ) 2 ) SS: 3 COUNTY OF C 0 O K ) 4 5 I, CHRISTINE R. MACINTYRE, a Notary 6 Public within and for the County of Cook, State of 7 Illinois, and a Certified Shorthand Reporter of 8 said state, do hereby certify: 9 That previous to the commencement of 10 the examination of the witness, the witness was 11 duly sworn to testify the whole truth concerning 12 the matters herein; 13 That the foregoing deposition 14 transcript was reported stenographically by me, 15 was thereafter reduced to typewriting under my 16 personal direction and constitutes a true record 17 of the testimony given and the proceedings had; 18 That the said deposition was taken 19 before me at the time and place specified; 20 That i am not a relative or employee or 21 attorney or counsel, nor a relative or employee of 22 such attorney or counsel for any of the parties 23 hereto, nor interested directly or indirectly in 24 the outcome of this action. Page 73 HALL0215 C " 79 1 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I do hereunto set 2 my hand and affix my seal of office this day 3 of , 2002. 4 5 6 7 Notary Public, cook County, Illinois. 8 My commission expires 6/13/03. 9 10 11 C.S.R. Certificate No. 84-2776. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 0 80 Page 74 HALL0215 INDEX WITNESS THOMAS D. HALL By Mr. Kohl burn By Mr. Knopf By Mr. will . EXAMINATION 9, 72 63 65 NUMBER EXHIBITS MARKED FOR ID NO EXHIBITS MARKED. 18' 19 20 21 22 23 24 Page 75