Document wr88OvqYVzvp0z2DZmNjGoX0J

tri-city COURT REPORTERS INC. I d l':i 1 E Ut' M 1 Cl I It IAN ) IN THE ClkCULT COURT FOR THE COUNTY OF HURON :i 4 ) 5 ROGER A. HALEY and VALERIE J. HALEY, ) Husband and Wife; and DONALD L. ) HALEY and FLORENCE S. HALEY, Husband ) and Wife, 7 8 9 -vs- Plaintiffs, .` ) ) ) ) ) ) ) 10 MICHIGAN SILO COMPANY, a Michigan ) ) 11 Corporation; C & B SILO COMPANY, a ) Michigan Corporation; MONSANTO ) 12 COMPANY, a Corporation; and CONCRETE ) SILO COMPANY, INCORPORATED, a ) i:i Corporation, Jointly and Severally, ) )- 14 Defendants. ) ) 15 No. 77 002593 NP VOLUME XXXIII 16 17 Excerpt of the proceedings had and testimony 18 taken in the above-entitled matter on Tuesday, May 22, 1984, 19 at 9:00 o'clock A.M., at the Huron County Courthouse, Bad Axe, 20 Michigan, before the Honorable M. Richard Kneblock. 21 22 29 24 25 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48700 (SI 71 893-4321 ! >_6 atare *r SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (SI7) 792-4/12 H A G ft WATER PCB-SD0000037520 TRl COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 A11 r 11.1 l-.ALC E:> 2 MC GRAW & BORCHARD, BY: PATRICK MC GRAW, Esq., 3 and 4 JAMES N. WOODWORTH, Esq 5 and 6 CUB ITT, CUB ITT & TROWI1ILL, 7 BY: II. DALE CUB ITT, Esq., 8 Appearing on behalf of Plaintiffs 9 CHAKLOS, JUNGERHELD & DELLA SAMTINA, BY: WILLIAM E. JUNGERHELD, Esq., 10 and II ROBERT A. HAHN, Esq., 13 and 13 DAVID F. MOORE, Esq., 14 Appearing on behalf of Defendant 15 Monsanto. 16 DAVIDSON, BREEN & DOUD, BY: JOHN DAVIDSON, Esq., 17 Appearing on bchalfc of Defendant 18 C & B Silo. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 300 PHOENIX. BLDG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4U70E lb I 7> a*J-4J21 hJjb STATE ST SAUINAW. MICHIGAN 48bOJ ili I 7) 7\J 47 ! 2 , ,54 87 I ! i i I I WATER PCB-SD0000037521 T|M_ . r COURT REPORTERS INC ] i:;r;rx I WITNESS: ;) PAPAGEORGE, William B. 4 Cross-Examination, Continuing by Mr. Woodworth 5 Redirect Examination by Mr. Jungerheld Page 5489 Page 5665 6 7 8 -9 10 11 12 i:i 14 -0O0- 15 (Whereupon at 9 :05 o'clock A.M., on Tuesday, 16 May 22, 1984, the Hearing was reconvened as 17 fo1 lows:) 18 THE COURT: Good morning members of the Jury 19 THE JURY: Good morning. 20 THE COURT: Mr. Woodworth? 21 MR. WOODWORTH: Thank you. Your Honor. '2 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE, 2:1 21 a witness herein, produced by and on behalf of the 25 Defendants, having been previously duly sworn, testified 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 lb I 71 693-4321 52..0 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 15 17)792-47 12 . 548 8 _ WATER PCB-SD0000037522 I fur t uc r on iii.s ^.ith as fallows: 1 m . VY COUHi REPORTERS INC > CROSS-EXAMINATION, Continuing DY MR. WOODWORTH: 4 g, Mr. Papageorye, when we left off yesterday we were dis 5 cussing this Aroclor plasticizer bulletin in coniunction li with the hygienic guide series on chlorodiphenyls. I'd t like to leave that for a moment and go to something else 8 and then we'lL return to this. 9 A All right. 10 & i'm goiny to show you what's been marked as Plaintiff's II Proposed Exhibit No. 328, that was marked about a month 12 ago, and ask you to read that to yourself. i;i And can you identify that, Mr. Papageorge? u A This is a letter from a Mr. Jenkins of the Ohio Department 15 of Agriculture, addressed to a Dr. Tucker of Monsanto lti Company. IT gi And did you receive a copy of that letter? 18 A Yes, I did. 19 yi And besides your name being refer Led to at the bottom of 20 this letter, as having teceived a copy, it is also referred 21 to within the body of this letter, is it not? 22 A That is collect. 2:1 MR. WOODWORTH: Your Honor, I'd move for 24 admission of P 1 a i lit i f f ' s 328, please 25 THE COURT: Objection, Mr. Jungerheld? 300 PHOENIX. Bl.OG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 i5 I 7) 893-4321 b246 blATt ST SAGlNAW. MICHIGAN 48603 ib l /) 792 47 I 2 11 agt. . 54 89 -- WATER PCB-SD0000037523 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC ~~ _ ................................... ; i I HU. uiiHHLUHLt.D: iuuf honor, it. appa rent 1 v >1 would bo hearsay us tu this witness. It is from a :i Jonkina to Tucker. 4 Also, the iuat couple of paragraphs I would auggeat 5 to tho Court are argumentative in tone and probative of 6 no isauoa in the caae. And tho objections would bo on thoae grounda. t 8 MR. DAVIDSON: Objection, Your Honor. 9 THE COURT: I'll allow ita admission over 1U objections. It goes to notice. 11 (Jt Mr. Papageorgo, would you please read this letter to the 12 Jury? 11) A The heading is: 14 "Ohio Department of Agriculture, Foods, Dairies and 15 Drugs, Ohio Departments Building, Columbus, Ohio, 18 43218. February 2nd, 1972, Dr. E.S. Tucker, Monsanto 17 Company, 1700 South Second Street, St. Louis Missouri 18 63177. 19 Dear Dr. Tucker: In October of 1971 I was appointed 20 as Chief of the Division of the Foods, Dairies and 21 Drug Division, Department of Agriculture, State of i 22 Ohio. I am a replacement for Dr. David A. Hill who 211 is no longer with this department. 24 I am writing to you in regards to the PCB problem 25 which we have encountered in tile silos in the State of 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 ISI 71 893-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS 171 792-47 1 2 PAGE _5A9.I1 WATER PCB-SD0000037524 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS INC. "oliiu, ana i i. p. 'S:i ib Le, w^uld L i ka tu obtain from vuii | 1 > or Mr. Papag._wrge the following information: ;i 1. In what way can the silos be treated which have 4 boon coated with the Aroclor 1254 base product 5 so that they can be recoated and used for 6 storage of silage? 2. Are ttiere any types of silos that can be used t rt to recoat the silos which could prevent PCB 9 from migrating through said coating? 10 3. If there is no way to recoat, seal, or otherwise 11 treat the contaminated silos, what is your 14 suggestion of how this problem should be l:i handled? 14 Fur two years now the PCB problem has been with us and no answers have been forthcoming from anyone 1.7 lfi in regards to how, when, or where the silos can be 17 used. Irt Inasmuch as Monsanto has been implicated in the 19 problem, 1 feel it is a responsibility of the Monsanto 40 Company to advise us as a regulatory agency of the 41 steps that should be taken so that the food supply of the consumers of the State of Ohio is protected from 4M further chemical residue contamination. Any help 44 you can give me in regards to this matter will be 4ft greatly appreciated. 300 phoenix, bldg. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (517) U93 4321 sc-is siAit sr SAGINAW MICHIGAN Jd603 (5 1 7) 72 47 1 2 i-agc 5 4 9 1 WATER PCB-SD0000037525 TRl CITY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 " Very 11 u i y youis, uliiu Ucpai Liucnt of Agriculture, Rowland E. Jenkins, Chief of Division." :i (i And the notation down in the lower left corner that we 4 referred to, Mr. Rapageurge, shows a copy going to you? 5 A. That's right. 6 yi And a copy to Jacob F. Hess, Jr.? 7 A. That is correct. 8 Q. And that's the attorney of Canton, Ohio, that's been 9 referred to? 10 A That is correct. 11 Qi That has represented Monsanto in the State of Ohio? 12 A Yes. i:i Qi Thank you, Mr. Rapagoorge. _ u Mr. Papageorge, this letter to me seems to create the 15 impression, contrary to your testimony yesterday, that 16 on February 2nd, 1972, the State of Ohio is still saying 17 or asking Monsanto, give us some help, what can you do 18 for us, and it seems to create the impression with mo that 19 none had been given to the State of Ohio or to Dr. Hill's 20 Division. 21 Is that correct? 22 MR. JUNGERHELD: Excuse me. is Cwunsel 20 asking if his understanding is correct? 24 THE COURT: Technically it's ubjectiunable. 25 Whether or not -- 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 71 693-4321 5226 SI ATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1^1 Si tuJ J7 1 r MAGE . WATER PCB-SD0000037526 TRIi.iT Y COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 f-i nouuWoK'i'll: I will rephrase the question, ) Your lienor. n THE COURT: Go ahead. 4 MR. WOODWORTH: That covers a lot of terri 5 tory, I realize that. 6 Q. It appears to nie as of February 2nd, 1972, from this 7 letter, Mr. Jenkins, the Chief of the Divisionof the 8 Foods, Dairies and Drugs for the Ohio Department of 9 Agriculture, is still looking to Monsanto for some 10 assistance, is that correct? 11 A Yes. 12 U And it seems to me that Mr. Jenkins says that in over the i:i period of two years with the PCB problem in Ohio, that H they are seeking assistance from Monsanto to protect the 15 people of Ohio and the State of Ohio from further chemical 16 residue contamination. 17 Is that a fair interpretation? 18 A Well, that is your interpretation. I have a different 19 one. 20 (Jl Nevertheless, may we assume that when you testified yester 21 day of this information and assistance that you shared 22 with the State of Ohio and their Department of Agriculture, 21! at least insofar as it seems Mr. Jenkins is concerned, it 24 wasn't successful? 25 A Mr. Jenkins was a newly appointed member of the Department 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (SI 7) 893 4321 S336 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 40603 (S I 7) 792*47 1 2 PAGE- WATER PCB-SD0000037527 _______ VNi C.TY COURT REPORTERS INC I ill UC Lub<- 1 L O I 1 G.W i ii'J .aii cit-CtluIl ill tliiA S La te >g 11 Ohio . > The man arrived totally unprepared for the job. He did i 3 not know what had transpired and he wrote this letter 4 indicating his understanding of the situation at that 5 moment,. which was not totally correct. 6 After conversations with Mr. Jenkins, through Mr. 7 Hess and Dr. Tucker and myself, we, I believe, at least I 8 was left the understanding that Mr. Jenkins had a clearer 9 understanding of what had transpired and what information 10 had been relayed to his predecessor, 11 gi I see. Thank you, Mr. Papageorge. 12 Let's refer back, if we will, to the hygienic guide 13 scries, and this wo went through in some detail. 14 And that just to restate that for the purpose of 15 today, this, hygienic guide series on chlorodiphenyls was 16 appended to the service manual. 17 Is that the proper termini.-, gy for it? 18 A. You mean the service manual terminology? 19 Qi Yes. 20 A That's the standard a^nuLuctui niy proci_Jmo for the manu 21 facture of chlorodiphenyls. 22 0. Now, when we left yesterday, we had discussed a Monsanto 23 bulletin and I believe we had concluded that. And it was 24 based off of the references on the Last page of that, Mr. 25 Papageorge. 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (517) 893-4321 5.06 51 A rt ST SAC, IN AW MICHIGAN 48603 ISI7) `>*2 4712 MAGE __ 5 4 9 4 WATER PCB-SD0000037528 TRl CITY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 Loo Is. at LI.*.. 1 s t. p -j al t iio h V g l i i L C S c I' i o; S . I1 HI 2 sorry, the first and last page. 3 Now, that was one of the references, was it not, the 4 reference for the authority for writing the article? 5 A. Yes. (i Qi Now, the second reference is to what? 7 A. it's Reference No. 2, is the American Conference of 8 Governmental Industrial Hygienists Threshold Limit Values 9 for 1964, AMA, arc environ health, 9545, parenthesis, 1U 1964, close parenthesis. 11 yt And the standards set forth within the threshold limit 12 values, 1964, is the amount basically of permissible 13 inhalation in the work pLace, is that correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Qi When we talk about threshold limit values, TLV - 16 A Yes, sir. i: Qi -- and the third reference within this, within this 18 hygienic guide series, is to Dr. Treon and others article 19 regarding toxicity of vapors of Aioclcr 1242 and Aroclor 20 1254, is that correct? 21 A That is correct. 22 yi And that was published in what year? 23 A The year shown here is 1956. 24 y. Are you familiar with that publication? 25 A I don't remember it. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 IS I 71 89J.4321 bCJo aUle ST SAGINAW MICHIGAN 48603 lb I /I .'83 4712 _____ 5 4 9 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037529 1 HI CITY COURT REPORTERS _ . .iPiC 1 ft Duiiny the cuui m. thui you weic taking euro o environ > mental uiaLtcra icyaidiny PCB1 a, do you know whether or | I! not you had occasion to review this particular article? 4 A I don't recall that particular article, no. 5 Qi Do you know who Dr. Troon is? (5 A. No, I don't. 7 gi No. 4, the reference is to whom? 8 A. Dr. Elkins. 9 ft And that's to a publication by him in Chemistry of Industrial 10 Toxicology? 11 A Yes. 12 ft And that was published when? i:i A 1959. - 14 ft And are you familiar with that book? 15 A Yes. . 16 ft And that discusses chlorinated biphenyls within the book, 17 does it not? 18 A Within the book, yes. 19 ft And does it not contain within that book a reference as 20 to industrial toxicology relating to chlorinated biphenyls? 21 A That's whut the whole book is about, not only for biphenyls 22 but many chemicals. 20 ft And did he discuss liver damage resulting to exposure of 24 choloiinated biphenyls within that textbook? 25 A I don't remember that specific. I'd huvo to look it up 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B708 (5 I 71 893-432 1 5.U6 STATE ST SAGINA'.V. MICHIGAN 48603 IS l7W`j3 47 1.2 I'AOE 540 6_____ WATER PCB-SD0000037530 _____________________ 1 HI 'Y COURT REPORTERS INC. I again. Thu next reference is to -- is No. 5 and that is a reference to Dr. Drinker and others. And what is the caption of that or the title of that article? The problem of possible systemic effects from certain chlorinated hydrocarbons. 8 ft And that was published when? 9 A. 1937. 10 ft Were you present when I'asked Dr. Kelly about Dr. Drinker 11 and his publications? 12 A. No. i;t ft Are you familiar with this particular article? 14 A. No. . is ft it does refer to chlorinated hydrocarbons in the title, in does it not? 17 A. Yes, it does. 18 ft And is polychlorinated biphenyl, PCB, a chlorinated 19 hydrocarbon? 20 A. Yes. 21 ft And the next article that they're using for authority, 22 No. 6. 211 A. Yes. 24 ft And that is again by Dr. Drinker only this is by Dr. 2i) Drinker alone. And what is the title of that article? 300 HHOENIX. BLOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4*706 IS I 7) SJ215 STA I fe 5T SAGINAW MICHIGAN 48603 15 t ?> 747 I 2 ^age _.49-7 WATER PCB-SD0000037531 TRi ! Y COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________INC. 1 A. Further obsci'Vutiuiis en the possrule systemic toxicity > of certain of the chlorinated hydrocarbons. 3 Q. And what was the year of the publication for that article? 4 A. 1939. 5 U And are.you familiar with that article? 6 A No. 7 Q. And the next reference is to what? 8 A It's to a personal communication from Monsanto Company, 9 Mr. Elmer Wheeler. 10 & And I believe you testified yesterday he was an employee of 11 Monsanto within the Medical Department? 12 A Yes. 13 Qt And the last reference is to whom or what? 14 A The authors are Greenburg, Mayers and Smith. The title 15 is The Systemic Effects Resulting From Exposure To Certain 16 Chlorinated Hydrocarbons, dated 1939. 17 ft and are you familiar with that article? 18 A No. 19 ft Have you ever had occasion to review any of these 20 articles? 21 A Yes, some of them. 22 ft This hygienic guide series is dated what year? 23 A I believe it's -- it's 1965. 24 ft And it appears to me that the hygienic guide series people, 25 in writing this industrial standard, used authorities and 300 PHOENIX. BLOC. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 467015 IS I 71 693 4321 SlJI) SIMt SI SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4So03 i5 I ;i 792-47 12 mce _jLA2a. WATER PCB-SD0000037532 TRl COURT REPORTERS INC 1 citutiv.ua and Loai_oL'cli and p u L1 ii.'Jt iuiia tiuin the 1930 's ) and fioin the 195U's, didn't they? :i A It appears so, yes. 4 Q. In scientific research, don't you think it's sometimes 5 important to go back into scientific literature and as li certain what it provides or says as to effects of certain 7 chemicals? 8 A. Yes, sometimes. 9 Q. And in this particular case we have a lot of references 10 within this hygienic guide series to inhalation or skin 11 contact of these particular chemicals. 12 A. That is correct. lit 0. And in the article it says, as to inqestion, it isn't 14 a problem in the work place. 15 Is that correct? 16 A That's what it says, yes. 17 U. Now, from that plasticizer guide, that exhibit that was 18 marked yesterday and we referred to, Plaintiff's Exhibit 19 No. 52, we have references within that of recommendations 20 by Monsanto of use of Aroclor 1254 and a plasticizer. 21 Is that correct? 22 A As a plasticizer, yes. 23 & 24 25 A And it is recommended as a concrete plasticizer of coating or sealant in a certain sense? Yes JOU PHOENIX. bLDc BAY CITY MICHIGAN 40706 ilit /l H9J 4J2I bjjo sure sr SAi'ilNAiV. MICHIGAN 46603 IS I 7) '*<.* 47 I J WATER PCB-SD0000037533 ________________________________________ TRl-t_lTY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 y. Now, when Aiocim 1254 is mixed wicn otner resins or ) compounds to be used in a sealer or plasticizer, whan i I 3 it's properly formulated, it is not expected to break 4 down, is it? > A That is correct. 6 y. Now, wo'vc had testimony from Dr. Willett in this case j 7 .that in fact the Cumur coating inside silos did in fact 8 either flake off the walls or the Aroclor 1254 leeched 9 from the coating into the silage. 10 Are you familiar with that testimony? LI A Yes. 1 heard it. 12 y. So in that case the coating was not effective. Would that 13 be a fair statement? .. 14 A In which case? 15 y. In the case of the silos where it either flaked off the H> walls or, in particular, where it leeched into the silage, 17 it was not an effective coating, is that correct? 18 A That is correct. 19 yt And when we encounter that situation with animals eating 20 the silage fruii t.he silos, and particularly cows, and these 21 cows giving milk, and the cows being butchered, and the oeople eating their meet, what we are having, is it fair 23 to say, Aroclei 1254, among other chemicals, going into 24 the human food chain? 25 Is that coriect? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 ISI7I 893 4321 5336 STATE ST SAbiNAVV. MICHIGAN 43603 (5 I 7) 792-47 1 2 MAi.l- 550fl WATER PCB-SD0000037534 1 A. Yes. ri v.j ty COURT REPORTERS INC i 2 Ui When we encountered that aituation, thoie ia no literature 3 immediately available as to ingestion, aa to poasible 4 health effects of ingestion of PCB's, is that correct? 5 A. Well, that is not correct. 6 ()i Okay. We do have literature from the 1930's, from the 7 1940's, from the 1950'a regarding Aroclor 1254 and 8 toxicity effects of Aroclor 1254, don't we? 9 A Yes. 10 Qi And a lot of thesa articles from the 1930's, from the 11 1940's, and the 1950's, show that typical target organ 12 of Aroclor 1254 is in fact liver, is that correct? 13 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your -Honor, for the record, 14 I'm going to object to this because the literature from 15 the '30's and '40's and '50's all deals with industrial 16 exposures, all deals with that type of a situation. 17 We're talking different routes of exposure by inhalation 18 and dermal contact. We're talking about much greater 19 quantities of exposure. We're not talking about any kind 20 of a situation that resembles the minuscule quantities, 21 the parts per million quantities that we're talkino about 22 in the case tiiat is before this Court. 23 THE COURT: L'll allow it. Can you answer the 24 question? 25 tii The documentation, before Mr. Jungerheld made his o b j ect i otji, 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY Cl rv. MICHIGAN 4B70B IS I ;> HBJ 4 J21 SUb SUTE Sr SAGINAW MICHIGAN 4B60J 15 1 .'I 792 47U magi- 5 501___ WATER PCB-SD0000037535 tk, _ ,: r COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 the gUeS l i eiU WaS LilO U.7C UiilcU t a L i eii and the Scientific 2 experiments from tlie 1930's from Dr. Drinker, from Dr. 3 Greenburg, from Dr. Swartz, from Dr. Elkins, the 1930's, 4 '40's and *50's, those showed that the target organs for 5 PCB was the liver, is that correct? 6 A. It depended on dose level. At high doses, yes. 7 Ql Just as Mr. Jungerheld got up and gave his objection, 8 is that correct? 9 MR. JUNGERHELD: Oh, now. Your Honor, just 10 a moment. Now I'm going to object to the editorializing 11 and these comments. Now, I've put up with for three 12 months. 13 THE COURT: Okay. I will sustain the objec 14 tion. 1 think we got an answer. Go ahead. 15 There is also a lot of references or numerous references Id throughout this literature in the '30's, '40's and '50's 17 and into the '6Q's about chloracne resulting from contact 18 with PCB's, is that correct? . 19 A. Again, at high doses. 111) ^ So when it is ascertained that a human being is, in fact, 21 ingesting this material, would that cause Monsanto or 22 cause you, as an official with Monsanto, any concern 23 knowing this Literature from the *30's, '40's and '50's, 24 that it causes these probLems? 25 A. it would cause concern if that knowledge was coupled with 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 IS I 7) 893-432 I S22o STATE ST SAC.INAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I 71 782-47 I 2 PAGE 55-Q2- WATER PCB-SD0000037536 TRl CITY COURT REPORTERS INC ail aWal t-llcbii i-L high dosugt-S iu the Lcud i ngus Led by the 1 ) person. ;i & So when you found out that people were eating milk -- 4 or eating meat and drinking milk from contaminated silos, 5 immediate response is unless it's a high dose, let's for (i get about it, or let's not be concerned? 7 A. That is not quite the way it happens, Mr. Woodworth. 8 Responsible medical people are consulted and in their 9 opinion -- considered opinion, not just o:ff the top of 10 the head, there was no evidence, no reason to have deep 11 concern for what was going on. This does not mean that 12 we stop thinking about it and pursuing it. KS ft While we're on the topic, Mr. Papageorge, what I'd like 14 to do is go through some of this history of Monsanto in 15 manufacturing of PCB's from the earlier years. 10 Can you tell the Jury, as being a former, I guess, 17 what was it, plant manager of the Anniston, Alabama 18 plant? A That is correct. 19 20 ft When that plant was acquired by Monsanto? 21 A As best 1 recall, about 1934. 22 ft And prior to Monsanto's acquisition of that Anniston, 20 Alabama, pLant, did Swan Chomical make PCB's there? 24 A That is correct. 25 ft And what year did they start making th<_m there, to your JOO PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 46706 15171693 4.121 biJS sUTb ST SAGINAW MICHIGAN 4860.3 .5 I 71 7.. ; 47 12 YAGE------ 5 5 Qd WATER PCB-SD0000037537 I understanding? ) A. 1929. TRl CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. i 3 ft Are you familiar with the document or the study done by 4 Drs. Jack Jones and Herbert Alden that was published in 5 1936 regarding PC13 exposure in the Anniston, Alabama, 8 plant up to 1935? i A. I'm not familiar with that article, no. 8 ft Are you familiar whether or not there were any complaints 9 of chloracne, or anything within that plant prior to 10 Monsanto's acquisition? II A. 1 was aware of an incident that occurred prior to Monsanto s 12 acquisition. And this is why we included precautions in 13 our safety instructions. 14 What incident are you aware of? 15 MR. JUNGERIIELD: Wait a minute. Your Honor. 18 It would seem to me that it would be hearsay as to this 17 witness. As I understand him, he indicated that this 18 was before Monsanto even took over the plant. L don't 19 know how in the world he'd know about it other 20 than by hearsay. 21 THE COURT: It goes to his knowledge. I'll 22 allow it. 23 y. What incidents are we referring to? 24 A 1 don't recall any specitic incidents otli^r than there 28 was apparently an exposure, at very high leveLs, and the 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48700 (5171893-4321 STATE ST SAC.INAW MICHIGAN 48003 15 17)792-4712 PACE 5 S fi 4__ WATER PCB-SD0000037538 TRi .. :r COURT REPORTERS _______________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 employees ~~ o l the un^luyn.s eXhib i tod chiuraene > akin conditions and following that, better housekeeping 3 and safety precautions were instituted to prevent the 4 reoccurrence. 5 ft Are you familiar with the product Halowax? 6 A. I have heard of Halowax. 7 ft Do you know what it is or was? 8 A. Yes. 9 ft And what was it? 10 A Halowax is -- my understanding is a tradename for 11 chlorinated parafins. 12 ft And were they used in conjunction with the Aroclors during IK the 1940's? _ 14 A In some applications they were, yes. 15 ft And were there problems resulting in the combination of IB these products or with workers from one or the other or 17 the combination of the two? 18 A I'm aware of articles reporting some problems associated 19 with a coating ut electrical wiring. 20 ft Would one of those articles been by Von t.oidel, Hal la 21 and Denton, reported in 1943 in Rubber Age? 22 A 1 just don't remember the names. 23 ft The problems that were associated with the contact, with 24 that combination of the Aioclois and Halowax, wore they 25 -- did they show chioracne? 300 PHOENIX. BLDG 8AY Cl TY. MICHIGAN 48706 (S I 7) 893-4J2 1 5J->o STATE ST SAGINAW MICHIGAN 46603 tb 1 7) 742 i7 l 2 lUfiK 5 5 0 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037539 TKi c i ry COURT . REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________INC. A. Chluracne, yes. 1 ! t And did they allow degeneration in the process of the 3 liver? 4 A. I don't remember that. 5 Qi Were you aware of any industrial exposure to Aroclor 1254 6 either alone or in combination with other products wherein 7 a death resulted? 8 A. No. 9 yi Did you have an opportunity to review the testimony of 10 Mr. Zimmerman -- Dr. Zimmerman? 11 A. I saw his summary, yes. 12 And was there any reference within that particular summary 13 as to his testimony and the history of PCB's in the in 14 dustry? 15 A. I'm not sure if it was his summary or someone else's, but lfi I recall reading it recently. 17 yi Do vou -- perhaps I'm mistaken and perhaps it was Dr. 18 Hansen, I'm not quite sure at this point, but do you 19 recollect or did you see within the summuries of testimony 20 a reference to ar industrial death or deaths relating to 21 contact or exposure to PCB's either alone ur in combination 22 witli another product? 23 A I think 1 read that recently, but 1 don't recall, the 24 specifics or whose testimony it was. 25 Were you aware of that prior to your reading it? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4S706 IS I 7) 693-432 1 I 126 S TATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 171792 47 12 Y4GE____ 55.Q6__ WATER PCB-SD0000037540 A. No . COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________ INC yi Would another wne of those articles referring to the combination of Halowax and PCB1s have boon by Dr. Mil Lor in the Public Health reports in the 1940's? A. I don't know Dr. Miller. Ul Are you familiar with the publication of Drs. Flynn and Jarvic in 1936 at the proceedings of the Society of Experimental Bio Logy regarding PCB's? A. No, I'm not. Qi Are you familiar with Dr. Swartz's publiation in 1936 in the American Journal of Public Health? A. No. y, How about Dr. Swartz in Barlow's publication, in 1942, in the United States Public Health reports? A. No. Q. How about Dr. Swartz again in 194 3 , Journal of American Medical Association? A. No. . ^ How about Drs. Niggs, Albom and Cardon in L954 in the Journal of American Medical Association? A. No. gi Mr. Papagoorge, ate you cognizant of Lite Walsh-Healy Act of 1952? A. Yes. y. And what was that ? 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 15 I 71 893-4321 S I A 1 E ST SAGINAW MICHIGAN 48603 lilll J'.'I2 hagE ^ 'jUJ. WATER PCB-SD0000037541  ________________________________________ THi v. IT Y COURT REPORTERS ___________________ INC 1 A. 'l'hut was u Le>.n i .1 i s t .i Lillu dvjs i gnjd to ^rot^ct. ) the worker in the work place and the precursor of the 3 current 0S1IA. 4 Qi One of t.he provisions within that 1952 Vialsh-Healy Act 5 was a limitation as to threshold limit value inhalation 6 of PCB's in the work place, wasn't it? i A Yes, sir. 8 y So in 1952 at least the federal government is concerned 9 about the amount of PCB's which may be inhaled in the 10 work place? 11 A That is right. 12 y And I would assume Monsanto is likewise concerned? 13 A The government got the numbers from Monsanto. 14 y And I would assume that those numbers were obeyed and 15 followed at the Monsanto plants? 16 A Yes, they were. IT y Was that threshold limit value lowered in 1957 by the 18 American Conference of Industi ial Hygiene? 19 A Yes. 20 y And what was it lowered to? 21 A I think -- let me think of it. I think it was one milli 22 gram per cubic meter for 1252 and halt a milligram per 23 cubic meter for Aioclor 1254. 24 y So that would be, as tar as Arocior 1254 is concerned, 25 would you understand it to be a lowering by 50 percent of 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70B IS I 7) 893-4331 S226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 151 7) 792 47 I 2 PAGE 5 5 0 8 WATER PCB-SD0000037542 TRi cur COURT REPORTERS iNC I the till, Id iiiuit value? 2 A. Yes. 3 (1 Over a period of five years we have 50 percent reduction 4 in the threshold limit value in the work place of inhala 5 tions of PCB's of 1254? 6 A. That is what happened, yes. 7 Ql Mr. Papageorgo, to your knowledge were there amendments 8 to the Federal Food and Drug Act in 1958 regarding the 9 presence of chemicals in foods? 10 A. I'm not that intimately familiar with the revisions in the 11 Food and Drug Act. 1 just don't know. 13 y. Mr. Papageorgo, when you assumed your position at 13 Monsanto in January 1st, 1970, you- came into position at 14 Monsanto as environmental officer, manager, in a time, 15 may we take- it, where there were high environmental Hi concerns? 17 Is that true? 18 A. Depends on wnieh sector of society you are thinking of. 19 yt How about the public? 30 A. There were elenu-nts Li. t i .. public that were concerned, 31 yes. v> yi How about congress? j 33 A. Congress was hi'Coming more concerned, yes. 34 Ui Do you know when this increased concern began? Can yen 35 hallmark it? 300 PHObNIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4d706 (5 I tt9J 4J2 t bJdb tsIATfc ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4dt>03 ihl'i .'\)2 47 1 2 _S5QU____ WATER PCB-SD0000037543 tki >., ry COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 A 1 have a [Jcisiii.a v..pinion that it was probably started I j 2 with a publication of a book by -- I think it's Rachel :i Carlson, Silent Spring, and seemed to reach its emotional 4 peak with Earth Day in 1970 or thereabouts. 5 ft Rachel Carlson's book, Silent Spring, was published in 6 1962. Would that be fair to say or, to your knowledge, is 7 that a fair approximation? 8 A. Sometime in the '60's. 9 ft And that dealt primarily with pesticides, organophosphut es, 10 organo -- chlorinated hydrocarbon pesticides, but primarily 11 DDT, did it not? 12 A That is correct. ia ft And we have already established that at that time poly 14 chlorinated biphenyl, PCB's, the Aroclors, and Aroclor 15 1254, was in fact recommended by Monsanto as an insecti 10 cide extender by that bulletin. 17 A The bulletin referred to a possible use. The government, 18 through the Department of Agriculture, the Federal Depart 19 ment, is the agency that recommended this application. 20 ft And if someone picked up that bulletin that you have be 21 fore you. Exhibit 52, I think, back at the time that it 22 was published and was looking through that and if they 22 were in the insecticide manufacturing business, they 24 would note there that one particular paragraph, they could 25 use 1254 in their insecticide preparations as an extender, 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 7) 893*4321 b22ti STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48604 IS 17) 792-47 12 RAGti ____ 5.51 Q_ WATER PCB-SD0000037544 TRl-v.; ! v COURT REPORTERS INC 1 WOUl dll ' t tl i ^ y > A. Well, you used the woidii "they could". They can't use it n until they submit their formulation to the agency and at 4 that time the Department of Agriculture for the approval. 5 y And if that formulation contained Aroclor 1254 , and if 6 that were the primary ingredient, or assuming all other 7 ingredients were upprovuluble, they wouldn't have any prob 8 lem with Aroclor 1254 because at that particular time, 9 say, 1962, Aroclor 1254 was in fact approved by the USDA 10 as a pesticide or insecticide extender, wasn't it? 11 A. That is my understanding, yes. 12 y In 1962 Monsanto had some laboratory tests conducted by i:t an outside lab, the Younger Lab, right? 14 A. Yes, sir. lf> y And those Younger Lab studies included what would be 10 called an oral LD-50 test? 17 A Yes. 18 y And there's been testimony by Dr. Kelly and others regard 19 ing what LD-50 tests ace. 20 Did those tests show, upon autopsy of the animals, 21 gastric problems or gastric necrosis upset, poor pulmonary 22 hypolioemia, and Liver disculoration? * 2.1 A I don't know those detaiLs, no. J | 24 y Let's take 19b2 as a jump-off point as to this Rachel 25 Carlson book ol RadioL Carlson's book at that particular 300 PHOLNIX. BLOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870S lb!7l 803 4321 rCJb SIAIt ST SAGINAW MICHIGAN 46603 (5 I 71 7oJ-47 I 2 HAGS_____ 5-5-LL- WATER PCB-SD0000037545 THl city COURT REPORTERS __________________ ________________________ _________________________________________ _________________________________ INC I t illie when it w^s published. ) After that wore there other events daring the ' 60's 3 which caused an increasingly consciousness, so to say? 4 A I don't recall any specific events but there was an 5 evolving and growing sensitivity to environmental issues. ti Qi Are you aware of the publication by McLaughlin, Murliuc, 7 Barrett and Michler and Fitzhuqh, from 1953 as to PCB's a effects upon eggs? 9 A L haven't heard of that article, no. 10 gi Also in the early 1960's congress passed the Clean Air Act, 11 1963. 13 Are you familiar with that? 13 A Yes. __ 14 Q. And what, just capsulized, did that act provide, to your 15 awareness? ,, l(> A It provided or enabled the federal government to establish 17 regulations regarding the emissions of pollutants into 18 the air, into the atmosphere. 19 Ql And I didn't mean to cut you off -- 30 A That's it. 21 Ql And in 1965 the federal government also passed the 22 Motor Vehicle Air Pollution Control Act, didn't they? 23 Are you aware of that? 24 A It's about that period. i don't remember the date. 25 (j. And that dealt with auto emissions? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4S706 (317) 893-4321 S226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 ISI71792 4712 PAGE 5 51? WATER PCB-SD0000037546 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS __________________________________________ _______________________________ _____________ ____________________________INC. 1 y And are port uL auto unisbioiib, hydrocarbons? A Yes. 3 y Also passed in 1965, by the federal government, was a 4 Water Pollution Control Act in 1965. 5 Are you aware of that? 6 A I'm aware of that, yes. * i Q. Now, during the trial, Mr. Papageorge, we've had a lot 8 of testimony as to Dr. Jensen of Sweden, whom 1 understand 9 you met his associate. 10 A Yes. 11 y And his article in 1966, in New Scientist, regarding the 12 widespread environmental contamination of PCB's? 13 Are you familiar with that article from the New 14 Scientist? In A Yes. - IH y Did you ascertain that Dr. Jensen had started his testing IT and investigation some years before the actual publication 18 in 1966 of the statement of environmental presence of 19 PCBs ? 20 A Yes. 21 y And what year, to your knowledge, did he begin his test ing]? 22 A That 1 don't know. 23 y Also in 1966, the same year of Dr. Jensen's article, the 24 congress passed the Clean Water Restoration Act. 25 Are you aware of that act? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (517)893-4321 52.26 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15171/9.2 4712 PACE 5 513 WATER PCB-SD0000037547 TRl CITY COURT REPORTERS ___________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________ INC 1 A. Yea , a. i l . 2 yi And what, basically, did that do? ;t A. That enabled the federal agencies to have the authority 4 to promulgate regulations and rules regarding -- that had 5 actions' that had an effect on the quality of water. <> Qi And in 1967 Congress passed the Air Quality Act of 1967. 7 Are you aware of that? 8 A. Yes. 9 & 1968 Dr. Risebrough published his findings as to the 10 PCB's being found in the what, seals and pelicans off the 11 shore of California? 12 A. That is correct. 111 And you subsequently met with Dr. Risebrough? 14 A. Yes. 15 (1 And what year did you meet with him? 16 A. 1970. 17 ft In 1968 the same year that Dr. Risebrough published his 18 findings as to the presence of PCB's in seals and pelicans, 19 Yusho occurred, is that correct, tu your understanding? 20 A. That is my understanding. 21 gi And for a number of years after, Yusho was published as 22 being solely a PCB incident, was it not? 28 A. That is what the reports indicated, yes. 24 Ql Now, did you subsequently develop an understanding that 25 there was more than PCB involved in the Yushoincident? 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4H706 1517) S93 432I STAIE ST SAGINAW MICHIGAN 4B603 IS I 71 ?'J. -17 I i PAGE 5514 WATER PCB-SD0000037548 1 A. Yob, 1 did, del 1 11 i L<_ Ly . THI-Ci : Y COURT REPORTERS INC. ft And what olbo wj.s there? ;) A. There was anotlier chemical that was a polychlorinated 4 dibenzofuran. 5 ft And did I -- 6 A. That's it. i ft You said on direct testimony that it took -- I'm not sure 8 if Iunderstand this properly, Mr. Papageorye, that this 9 took oxyqen duriny the manufacture of PCB in order to make 10 those PCDF's? 11 A. Yes. 12 ft And if you use oxygen duriny the manufacture and -- of the i:i process, it would explode? 14 A. Well, oxygen occurs in different forms. Oxygen is an 15 ingredient, say, in air. With benzine at the right 16 temperatures, would make a -- create an explosive mixture. 17 Oxygen as present in another form, another chemical, would 18 not be the same. 19 ft Are PCDF's, according to your scientific knowledge and JO understanding, actually a by-productof the manufacture 21 of PCB's? >1 A. Yes, they are inadvertently produced in the process under 211 the right set of conditions. 24 ft And to your understanding, during the 1970's when you 25 were looking into methods of disposal of PCB's 300 phoenix, slog. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B706 IS I 7) 893-432 I siatl sr SAGINAW MICHIGAN 4d603 l!i I 71 792 47 I J kitit _H51 [3_____ WATER PCB-SD0000037549 _____________________________________ TRI-CJTY COURT REPORTERS ______ ____________________________________________ ;nc 1 in thu euviruiiuciiL, did you understand that also Aroelors > or PCB's can luvo, while they're sitting, that PCDF's 3 can occur through some chemical changes of PCB's? 4 A Furans are not found that easily. 5 Cl Not that easily. But -- not just by sitting there, but 6 is a chemical process that can occur with PCB's wherein 7 PCDF's may occut, is that correct? 8 A. At high temperatures in the presence of oxygen, yes. 9 Cl And in 1969, NEPA, is that what it's called, NEPA or NEPA? 10 A. NEPA is all right. 11 Q, NEPA was passed. And that was a rather landmark legis 12 lation, wouldn't that be fair to say? in A. Yes. ,, 14 Ql And NEPA provided for the Natural Environmental Protection 15 Act, and progeny, that would be the Environmental Protec 16 tion Agency itself? 17 A That is correct. 18 Cl And in 1969 another piece of important legislation ia was passed and 1 think you'd be familiar with it, the 20 Occupatoinal Safety and Health Act? 21 A That is correct. '22 U And that dealt with what? 2:j A Safety in the work place. 24 ti Would that be an extension of the Walsh -Healy Act and a 25 number of other work place acts that had been passed in 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4U70S IS t 7) 893*432 I 5-.J6 SI ATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4Ub03 1517)792 4712 PAGE _5-S1.6_____ WATER PCB-SD0000037550 ! 1 cjrlict yi.oi s? TKl . T Y COURT REPORTERS INC. 2 A. Yes, it replaced oil of those previous acts. i ;i Qt Now, these pieces of legislation, the National Environ 4 mental Protection Act and the OSHA legislation, had been 5 in works in Congress for a few years prior to their 6 passage. 7 Would that be true? 8 A That's correct. 9 H And while they're in the works, and while they're being 10 debated and formulated, different people will make 11 recommendations as to the contents of that legislation? 12 A Yes. i;i y And did Monsanto make recommendations as to the contents 14 of the EPA or NliPA ]egislation? 15 A I don't know. 1 was not involved personally. 16 y Did Monsanto make recommendations as to the contents of 17 the OSUA legislution? 18 A I don't know. 19 y Then we come to January 1, 1970, when you assume your 20 position as the environmental control manager of Monsanto. 21 22 A 23 y. 24 25 Is that the proper term? Yes, that's close. You testified in your deposition, Mr. Papageorge, that Monsanto has a full-time lobbyist in Washington, D.C., is that correct? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 15 171 893-4JS I 5226 STAVE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 13 I 7) 7-j2 47 I 2 PAUL ___55 LZ__ WATER PCB-SD0000037551 TRl-v. :TY' COURT REPORTERS INC 1 A. i e s > Ci And how long has Monsanto had a full-time lobbyist? 3 A. I don't know the exact date, but it's certainly prior to 4 the 1960's when L became aware. 5 Qt What is the purpose or function of that lobbyist? 6 A. He is to be, in essence, the eyes and ears of Monsanto 7 in the nation's capital to keep informed of developing 8 legislation, to inform the managers of Monsanto of what 9 might be in Congress and be considered in Congress and 10 how it might impact the company; and where he can, to try 11 to provide information that might help influence the type 12 of legislation that is finally passed. 13 Qi And, Mr. Papageorge, when there is legislation that 14 is pending that may have an adverse effect upon Monsanto, 15 you might call upon your lobbyist, as other organizations 16 do call upon their lobbyists, to discuss alternatives 17 or possible other legislation or modification of the 18 legislation, is that correct? 19 A. That is correct. 20 I), Do you know whether that occurred in the instance of the 21 National Environmental Protection Act? >> A. No, I do not. 23 Ci Do you know whether that occurred insofar as OSHA? 24 A. 1 do not. 25 Ci Mr. Papageorge, I'm going to show you Plaintiff's Proposed 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 71 883-4321 52J6 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I ?l 792 47 I 2 PAUL _ 5 51-8------- WATER PCB-SD0000037552 TRi si, :y COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 Lxh iLi L No. 4b , wnich w.js iUui'Nvjci seine time ago, una ask. 2 you it you cun identity that. 3 A. This is a copy of a Monsanto bulletin on Aroclors. 4 Q. Okay. 5 MR. WOODWORTH: Your Honor, I'd move for this 6 bulletin's admission, please. ' 7 THE COURT: Let's take a 10 minute recess. 8 (Whereupon a recess was taken.) 9 THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Woodworth. 10 11 gi MR. WOODWORTH: Thank you, Your Honor, (By Mr. Woodworth, continuing:) Mr. Papageorge, is this 12 bulletin used for the same purpose as the other bulletin i;i that was previously introduced, generally speaking? l-t A. Generally speaking, this preceded the previous copy we 15 saw. 16 Q. Can you tell us whatdate this bulletin is? 17 THE COURT: You offering that? 18 MR. WOODWORTH: I thought I did. Yes, I did, 19 in fact. 20 THE COURT: Any objection to the bulletin? 21 This is Exhibit 48, is it? 22 MR. JUNGERHELD: 48, I think. Your Honor, to 23 shorten things up, 48, 87, 88, 156 and 86 have all been 24 shown to us and they're all copies of documents which we 25 have provided to Counsel some time ago. And so T don't joo phoenix, slog. 9AY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 15 17)893-4321 s.es sTArt sr SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)793 4712 5S1 9 WATER PCB-SD0000037553 ______________________________________________ TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS _________ ___________ ______________ have objuetiuns lu jii\ ui tiiosc exhibits. 1 MR. DAVIDSON: Nor I. 2 3 THE COURT: Are you offering all of those? 4 MR. WOODWORTH: Yes. 5 TIIE COURT: What are the numbers again; 4 8 6 and what are the others? MR. JUNGERI1ELD: 87, 88 , 156, and 86. 7 THE COURT: Is that correct, Mr. Woodworth? 8 MR. WOODWORTH: That is correct. Your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Very well. If there is no objec 10 tion to Plaintiff's 48, 87, 88, 86, and 156 are admitted 11 without objection. 12 13 Go ahead. MR. WOODWORTH: For the record -- well. I'll 14 15 go ahead with it. Ql Can you tell us an approximate date of this document? 18 17 A. 1949. 18 fr Okay. And how can you tell that, Mr. Papugeorge, just out of curiosity? 19 A. On the last page are the initials of the author and the 20 4-49, that is April, '49, and 71 is the catalog number 21 for this particular document. 22 Ij. Mr. Papugeorge, I'd like to direct your attention within 23 that document, the first page entitled "Forward." And 24 the first paragraph, dues it not state that. -- and I'm 25 300 PHOENIX. BLOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (5 171893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15171792 4712 PAuE ______5 5 2 0 WATER PCB-SD0000037554 fh, , . 1 Y COURT RbPORTERS . INC. : ....... I 1 paruphr da ing, without reading the entire paragraph, that. Arociors have won a prominent place for applications 3 such as -- and going down to the bottom of the paragraph, 4 sealing compunds, adhesives, protective coatings, including 5 plastics, pigments, lacquers, paints, varnishes? 6 A Yes, it says that. *t* ft And the Page 15, please, Mr. Papugeorgo. And on Pacie 8 15 is entitled "Applications." 9 A 1 see that, yes. 10 CJl And the first application referred to is adhesives. 11 A That is correct. 12 ft And the end of that paragraph, the end of one sentence, and 13 the next one refers to that, this is recommended as addi 14 tives in protective coatings to improve adhesion. 15 Does that mean that it can be mixed in coatings and 16 it would hulpthe coating stick to a wall or stick to the 17 floor or ceiling or wherever it's supposed to adhere to? 18 A 1 don't see that statement, but that's the way r would 19 interpret that phrase. 20 ft And the last sentence of that first paragraph under 21 adhesives states that this quality of the Aroclors is 22 related to their plasticizing action on the plastics 23 materials commonly used in adhesives and coatings. 24 A Would you show me that? I'm having a difficult time 25 finding that. 300 PHOENIX. BLDG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4U706 lb I 7) dJ-4J2l 5326 STATI: ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 7*2 47 12 _____5 5 21 WATER PCB-SD0000037555 ______________________________________________ TRI C: r Y COURT REPORTERS INC 1 y Suio. 'Hi i s is whore 1 ra'ui rod to in on udJiiivu. 2 Protective coating to improve adhesion. And then this :i sentence here: The quality of Aroclors is related. 4 A It says that, yes. 5 Qi Thank you, Mr. Papageorge. 6 I'd like to direct your attention to Plaintiff's 7 Exhibit No. 156 and ask you to identify that, please? 8 That's the one right there on top. 9 A This is a copy of a Monsanto technical bulletin on 10 the subject of Aroclors. 11 y . And is this for Aroclors in relation to resins and plasti 12 cizers for chlorinated rubber? K! A Yes. 14 y And we touched about mixtures of Aroclors and chlorinated 15 rubber yesterday. IK A We did, yes. 17 y And was one of the purposes of this bulletin to promote 18 the use of Aroclors in combination with chlorinated rubberh? i 19 A Yes. 20 y And one of the chlorinated rubbers or the chlorinated 21 rubber referred to within this bulletin is Parlon, isn't 22 it? 22 A 1 haven't found it yet. 24 y Page 4. 25 A 1 see it, yes. 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4S70S 19 I 7) 893*432 1 S24o STATE ST . SAGINAW. MICHIGAN -48603 ISI7I 792 4712 PAut ___5 5 2 2 WATER PCB-SD0000037556 rsi v.., -r COURT REPORTERS INC 1 y And Pa i Lon id i i.>-ji cJ l uiit in tlic Cuiiiar formula, I 2 take it. We established that yesterday? 3 A. Yes. 4 y The Cumar formula that is before you here? 5 A. Yes. That's an ingredient only in what I have seen in 6 writing. I do not know -- no analysis lias ever been made 7 of Cumar to establish the presence of Parlon. 8 Q. Dr. Willett that testified in this case, he's done work 9 with Cumar, hasn't he? 10 A. I understand he has, yes. 11 y And did he publish an article regarding the composition of 12 Cumar and what was in it? 13 A Yes, he did. 14 y And would you consider his publication accurate? 15 A I do not know the source of his information on the 16 formulation for Cumar, so I can't judge it. 17 y You can't -- 18 A I can't judge its validity or whether Parlon is in truth 19 in the coatings that we're talking about. 21) y One of the publications where Mr. Willett stated -- or 21 Dr. Willett stated that Parlon was an ingredient of Cumar 22 was, in fact, the article co-authored by Jacob Hess, the 23 attorney that had worked for Monsanto, is that correct? 24 A That is my recolLection, yes. 25 y Now, if 1 could direct your attention to Pace 6. At the 300 PHOENIX, a LOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 40706 1517)093-4321 S2JO STATE ST SAGINAW MICHIGAN 40603 15 I 71 792 47 1 2 PAGE _5 S2-J- WATER PCB-SD0000037557 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC .| .| 1 top ui the page is reference to solvent compatibility. j > And I take it tu what solvent compatibility moans is j 3 a combination of the Aroclor and the Parlon. There are 4 certain solvents which are compatible with that to be 5 mixed in, is that correct? 6 A That is what it implies, yes. 7 ft And within this chart is, in fact, a reference to 8 SolvessolOO, is that correct?The right-hand column? j 9 A 1 see it, yes. 10 ft And within that formula in front of you, for Cumar, 11 SolvessolOO is an ingredient, isn't it? 12 A Yes. 13 ft And Pace 8 of this bulletin, Mr. Papageorge. 14 A I found it. 15 ft And there are two formulations or applications recommended, 16 suggestions, so to say, for uses of combinations of 17 Aroclors and Parlon. 18 The top one would be for paint formulations for 19 alkaline surfaces, is that correct? 20 A That is what: says. 21 yi And within that paint formulation for alkaline surfaces, '22 included within the proposed or suggested ingredients, are 23 Parlon, correct? 24 A Yes. 25 ft Aroclor 1254? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 43706 (317) 393-4J21 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 43603 l5 I 7) 7y2 47 I 2 PAGE ____ 5.524 WATER PCB-SD0000037558 y COURT REPORTERS INC 1 A. Yea. o y Aroclor 5460? 3 A. For one of three f ormulations. 4 Ql And for Xylene? 5 A For two of the threeformulations. 6 y And the table below that, Mr. Papageorge, there is a 7 reference to formulations for chemical resistant paints. 8 A I see that, yes. 9 Q. And suggested ingredients within formulations for 10 chemical resistant paints we have Parlon again? 11 A Yes. 12 y Aroclor 1254? 13 A For four of the five suggestions.' 14 y Aroclor 5460? 15 A For one of-the five. 16 y The one of the five is interior use acids and alkalis, 17 is that correct? 18 A Yes. 19 y And the interior usu acids and alkalis recommend Parlon 20 or suggests Parlon? 21 A Yes. 22 y Aroclor 5460? 23 A Yes. 24 y Aroclor 1254? 25 A Yes. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (5 I 71 893-4321 S>2J6 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 l5 l 71 792 471 2 5525 WATER PCB-SD0000037559 1 ft Xylene V 2 A Yes. THi w.Tv COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________ INC. 3 ft And all those ingredients are, in fact, Cumar, aren't 4 they? 5 A They are reflected in this formula that is typed on this 6 page, yes. 7 gt And the only other ingredient, the only other ingredient 8 on this table which is not in the particular Cumar formu 9 lation, is iron oxide, is that correct? 10 A The only other ingredient in the suggested formulation is 11 -- yes, it is iron oxide. But there are ingredients on 12 the Cumar formulation that don't show up on the bulletin 13 page, either. 14 ft Such as China clay, is that correct? 15 A China clay. 18 ft China clay is a filler, isn't it? 17 A I don't know. I don't know why. 18 MR. JUNGERIIELD: He was cut off. 19 MR. WOODWORTH: I'd just asked the answer be 20 stricken as non-responsive, anyway. 21 THE COL'PT: All right. 22 A There is Thinner 470, laradene No. 2 flaxe, R16A Neville. 23 These ingredients are not in the Monsanto bulletin. 24 ft Thinner 470 is a solvent? 25 A 1 assume tiiat. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4S708 IS I 7) d93*432 I 5236 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (SI7) 792 4713 page 5526 WATER PCB-SD0000037560 TRi-,.i ry COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 ft And another .ingi^diont, solvent, is Solvesso 100 and the ) Xylol? a A That is correct. -t ft And those materials basically, how should I put it, 5 evaporate or disappear after its appliation upon a wall 6 or a floor or a ceiling? 7 A. This is dependent on the other ingredients present. 8 Q. I have one other thing regarding this exhibit. Mr. 9 Papageorge I'd like to direct your attention to Page 3 10 of this exhibit and that shows in a simplistic manner 11 on how Aroclors are made, doesn't it? 12 A. It shows in a very simple form how Aroclors were made. ia ft And it shows here that it was -- f-irst of all you start u with benzine? 15 A Yes. 16 ft And it's bubbled through molten lead, is that right? 17 A That was up until the 1950's. 18 ft Okay. 1 just, to make sure, then, from your testimony on 19 direct examination, it was not always in the method that 20 you particularly testified to, as to the methodology of 21 making PCB's, is that correct? 22 A. The methodology L described was the modern method, not the 2-.! molten lead method. 21 ft Lead is, in Cect , a toxic substance unto itseLE, is it 25 not ? 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (517) 693-4321 b_ J6 STATE ST SAGINAW MICHIGAN 48603 ISI7) 793 4712 5527 WATER PCB-SD0000037561 TRl CITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________INC. 1 A. If vapors jiu Lr <_atiled, if material is ingested at the 2 right levels, an effect will be noted, yes. 3 if Next, Mr. Papagoorge, within that stack before you, if 4 you'd pick up Exhibit 86. 5 A. I have it. 6 & And would you identify this, please? I? A. It's a copy of another Monsanto technical bulletin 8 entitled "Aroclor compounds in formulating high styrene 9 copolymer surface coatings." 10 Ql And if you'd look at the introduction page, please, Mr. 11 Papageorge. 13 A I have it. 13 Q. And the first pacugraph, sir, tho'second sentence. 14 A 1 see it. 15 Ui Does it not recommend a formulation of Aroclor with 16 Pliolite for finishes, including exterior finishes, for 17 poured concrete, for concrete blocks and cinder blocks? 18 A Yes, for exterior finishes for all the whole list. 19 MR. JUNGERUELD: Your Honor, just for clari 30 fication purposes, I think it should be -- the Jury should 31 be informed that this one is dated November 1st, 1953, 33 and the prior one was May of 1957. L don't think either 33 of that was brought out. 34 THE COURT: Well, now, this one, 86, this is 35 300 PHOENtX. BLOG 0AY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (517) 893-432 f ilATE aT SAt.lNAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 1 /> 792 4712 haGH _____5.5.2S -- WATER PCB-SD0000037562 TRI C i TY COURT REPORTERS INC. i 1 MR. WoODWuRTtl: 86, I'm on 54. I'm sorry. 2 THE COURT: Which exhibit you talking about 3 right now? 4 MR. WOODWORTH: 86. 5 THE COURT: That is dated -- 6 MR. I1AIIN: November, '53. 7 Q. What is the date of this, Mr. Papageorge? 8 THE COURT: That is not what this list says. 9 What do you have there? 10 MR. WOODWORTH: Your Honor, because these 11 were marked twice, there are two sets. 12 THE COURT: All right. We'll take his date. 13 A. This bulletin replaced a bullet in .dated November, '53. 14 So it's sometime after 1953. lft Ul December, 1957? 18 A. There it is. On the title page is December, 1957. 17 MR. JUNGERHELD: How about the prior one? 18 THE COURT: All right. Well, why don't you 19 cover that during cross-examination. 20 MR. JUNGERHELD: All right. Your Honor. 21 And the Exhibit number, just for the record, Mr. Papageorge, 22 is No. 86? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Now, going back to the introduction page, Mr. Papageorge, 2ft the last phrase within that first paragraph provides that 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 15171893-4321 5228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 ISI 71 792 4712 pagE_5-52.9___ WATER PCB-SD0000037563 TRI CifY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 these coatings .and points and plasticizers, tliu resins ) with Aroclor plasticizers, are relatively easy to formu 3 late, is that correct? 4 A. Well, it refers to a specific kind of resin, Mr. Woodworth. 5 It refers to styrene copolymers. Very specific resin. 6 ft Thank you. Mr. Papageorge, I'd like to next direct your I attention to Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 88 and ask you to a identify that along with the date if you're able to. 9 A. This is a copy of a Monsanto technical bulletin entitled 10 "Plasticizers in Synthetic Resin Adhesives." n I cannot find any reference relating to its date of 12 publication. 13 Ui Can you give us an approximation by the cover or the type 14 of printing or the address within it? 15 A. 1 can't get any closer than the '50's, '60's. 16 ^ Mr. Papageorge, would you please look at Page 2? 17 A. i have it. 18 ft The lust sentence. 19 A. The part sentence on the page. The heart sentence? 20 Ql The one before the last sentence, does not that say: 21 Lack of toxicity is especially important now in food 22 applications because of the 1558 amendment to the federal 23 Pure Food and Drug and Cosmetic Act. Monsanto plasti 24 cizers impart excellent grease resistance and heat 25 scalability to the adhesive. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CirY MICHIGAN 48708 IS 171 893-4321 5228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5171 792 47 t 2 f'AUt: _5SJU_____ WATER PCB-SD0000037564 ________________ INC * 1 Is that collect? TKi . TY COURT REPORTERS i j 2 A Yes. 3 Q. Apparently in 1958 there was some concern on the part of 4 Monsanto as to the toxicity effects and whether or not 5 a particular formulation or coating might be toxic in 6 contact with foods, is that correct? 7 A. We've always had that concern. 8 y. And what did you do? What did Monsanto do in 1958 as a 9 result of this amendment to- the FDA Act? 10 A Well, it's obvious from that statement that they tried II to share that pot with the readers of this bulletin. That 12 has nothing to do with getting an end use of our materials 13 approved by the FDA. That is the second step, another 14 step. 13 gt Now, if you look at Page 23. And on Page 23 there's a 16 paragraph entitled "Toxicological Characteristics," isn't 17 there? 18 A Yes. 19 Qk And that states that the 1958 amendment to the Pure Food, 20 Drug and CosmeLic Act has caused some uncertainty about 21 the kind of materials that can be used in adhesives. The . `22 Food and Drug Administration lias ruled that it will approve; 23 any material that does not migrate from the adhesive into 24 the food. 25 Migration is determined by the use of a suitable dye. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1517)893-4321 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 17)792-47 12 HAijt _____55.J.1__ WATER PCB-SD0000037565 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 Monsanto offurs six plasticizers that are approved by the 2 FDA as being non-toxic. These products are Santiciser 3 141, Santiciser B16, Santiciser E15, Diethyl Phthalate. 4 You are yoing to have to help me with these. What are the 5 last three? 6 A Dioctyl Phthalate and Diisooctyl Phthlate. 7 And the last sentence is: Use of these materials as a 8 plasticizer in synthetic adhesive should greatly aid 9 acceptance of the adhesive. 10 Is that correct? 11 A That is correct. 12 ft And there is no place within here that Aroclor 1254 is, 13 in fact, approved by the Food and Drug Administration as 14 being non-toxic? 15 A That is correct. That claim has never been made, 16 ft Would you please look at Page 27. 17 A I have it. ' 18 Ui Okay. And at the bott m of the page there is the fourth 19 chemical frt'u me bottom is a chemical referred to as 20 Couniarin Monsanto, C-o-u-m-a-r-i-n. 21 A Coumarin, yes. 22 Ql Now, that sounds an awful lot Like Cumur. 23 Can you tell us what this Coumarin Monsanto is? 24 A There's no relationship. Coumarin is a food flavoring 25 and it also acts as an odor-masking agent. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (317)893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 171792-47 12 h AGe 5 5 4 ? WATER PCB-SD0000037566 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________ INC. 1 y Whuio docs the wofd Cumar or Coumarin oxnic fren? 2 A. 1 don't know. Coumarin Monsanto is related to vanillin. 3 Vanilla flavor, they're related. 4 y Next, Mr. Papageorge, I'd like to direct your attention to 5 Plaintiff's Exhibit 87 and ask you to identify that? 6 A. This is a copy of a Monsanto technical bulletin entitled 7 "Aroclors, Resins and Plasticizers for Chlorinated Rubber.' 8 y And can you tell us the date of this bulletin? 9 A The only reference to a date I see on this document is a 10 date that appears to have been stamped on, not printed on 11 the document, April 1, 1971. 12 y And do you know whose date stamp that is? 13 A I do not know. 14 y Would you look at Page 4, please? 15 A 1 have it. 16 y One of the -- it states: Aroclors, resins and plastici IT zers for chlorinated rubber. Again, one of tiie chlorinated 18 rubbers would be Parlon, is that correct? 19 A That is a tradename for one of thmn, yes. 20 y And the first sentence appearing before that: Some im 21 portant applications for protective and decorative 22 chlorinated rubber base coatings, plasticizer with Aroclor 23 compounds. Then that is a number of uses. 24 And the one first on the bottom of that paragraph is 25 food processing building, is that correct? 300 PHOENIX, a LOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70B 19171393-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48B03 15 17)792-47 12 VAGfc 55 3 3 WATER PCB-SD0000037567 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________INC. 1 A. That's right. 2 gi So wo have from tiio prior building that there is some 3 concern at Monsanto about toxicity in relation to the 4 Food and Drug Act in 19 -- or subsequent to 1958, is that 5 correct? 6 A. That is correct. 7 yi And that Monsanto has approved certain plasticizers for 8 use in relationship to foods? 9 A Yes. 10 Qi And Aroclors are not one of them? 11 A That is correct. 12 Q. And here we have this next bulletin, whatever date it is, 13 regarding Aroclor and recommending its usage together 14 with chlorinated rubber in food processing buildings? 15 A That is not an inconsistency. 16 Ql And would it be fair to assume that if you have a food 17 processing building, it is perhaps possible that food is 18 going to come into contact with the building? 19 A I don't know that. It certainly shouldn't be on the 20 walls, the floors, and the ceiling and the structural 21 steel. That is a poorly run plant if it does. 22 y. Mr. Willett said a couple times that an ounce of preven 23 tion is worth a pound of cure. 24 Would you agree with that? 25 A That is a good simplistic statement, yes. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 171 893-4321 8226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I 71 792-47 1 2 PAGE 5 5 3 4 WATER PCB-SD0000037568 tri-city COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 y if you look at the next page, Pago 5, whore the introduc 2 tion appears. 3 A. Page 5, I have it. 4 y And would you road the last paragraph of the introduction, 5 please? 6 A. "The formulations suggested in this bulletin are com 7 mon in commercial practices. They are given as start 8 ing points or guides for development of new forumla- 9 tions that capitalize on the outstanding qualities of 10 the compounds." 11 y And what compounds are those, the chlorinated rubbers and 12 Aroclors, or just the Aroolors? Perhaps I should give you 13 a minute to read the introduction. I'm sorry. 14 A Yes, I'm trying to. The introduction refers to not only 15 Monsanto's Aroclors, but it also includes chlorinated 16 rubber, a reference to it. So I don't know that the 17 summary statement applies to either or both. 18 Qi Certainly it would apply at least to Aroclors? 19 A Yes, I would believe that. 20 y And Page 6, please? 21 A All right. 22 y And it states a paragraph which is Monsuntos statement as 23 to properties of rubber. 24 Do you see that paragraph at the bottom? 25 A Properties of -- 1 don't see it. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4S706 IS I 7) 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 171792-47 12 PAGE 5 5 3 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037569 _____________________________________________________________ ---- - 1 ft Pago 6. TRl CiTY COURT REPORTERS INC _ 2 A. It starts with the word "properties"? | I 3 ft No. I'm sorry. It's a a caption right there. 4 A. Oh. 5 ft Would you just read that first sentence which is a para 6 graph unto itself, please? 7 A. "Chlorinated rubber based coatings are used extensively for resistance to corrosion, moisture, fungus, molds 9 and other destructive agents." 10 ft So it's being represented that chlorinated rubber and 11 Aroclor would be resistant to those types of things: 12 corrosion, moisture, fungus and mold? 13 A. Well, the statement doesn't say Aroclors, it -- just 14 chlorinated rubber based coatings, 15 fit And Page 9r please, as to solvents compatibility, Table 3 16 at the bottom. 17 A 1 see it. 18 Ql And this Table 3 is what? What is it entitled? 19 A It's entitled "Suggested Solvents for Compositions with 20 Aroclor and Parlon." 21 ft And looking through this table, Mr. Papageorgo, we see in '22 the right-hand column about halfway down, SolvcssolOO. 23 A Yes. 24 ft Which appears in the formulation for Cumar before you? 25 A Yes. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 (3171 893-4321 5228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 13 I 7) 792-47 1 2 PAGE 5 5 3 fi WATER PCB-SD0000037570 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.______________________ 1 ft And Xylene? 2 A. Yes. 3 ft Mr. Papageorge, lastly, within this bulletin I'd ask you 4 to turn to Page 15. 5 A. I have it. 6 ft And there is a reference paragraph entitled "Mastics." 7 A. I see it, yes. 8 ft And the second sentence in that states: Mastics modified 9 with Aroclor compounds can effectively seal cracks in 10 concrete, smooth rough concrete surfaces for subsequent 11 glossy coatings and give excellent corrosion resistance 12 under severe conditions and retard fire. 13 Is that correct? - 14 A That is what it says. 15 ft Mr. Papageorge, I'm going to show you Plaintiff's Exhibit 16 No. 44 and ask you if you can identify that. 17 A This appears to be a copy of the bulletin of the Barrett 18 Company on the subject Cumar. 19 ft Have you seen this before? 20 A No. 21 ft This was provided to us at one point in time in answers 22 to interrogatories as to a certain question. There has 23 been some answers, Mr. Papageorge, statements as to 24 Cumar being used within a formulation or as a formulation 25 before you. And also there's been some interrogatory 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870B 13171 893-4321 S226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I 71 792-47 1 2 PAGE _____5 5 3 7__ WATER PCB-SD0000037571 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS __________________________ ___________ __________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 answers that Cumai was a product unto itself. Would you 2 agree with that? 3 A. That is my understanding. 4 ft In fact, some interrogatories, and I'm not sure which 5 ones, though, Mr. Papageorge, were in fact answered by you 6 A. Yes. 7 ft In this case? 8 A. Yes. 9 MR. WOODWORTH: Your Honor, I'd move for 10 admission of Plaintiff's Exhibit 44, Proposed Exhibit. 11 MR. JUNGERHELD: Well, Your Honor, even though 12 they produced this for the attorneys, it is dealing with 13 the Cumar resin that is made bv the Barrett Division of 14 the Allied Chemical & Die Corporation. I would say that 15 it is hearsay as to this witness. 16 MR. WOODWORTH: If I might ask a couple 17 questions. 18 ft Mr. Papageorge, within the industry, within the chemical 19 industry, once they produce these bulletins, do other 20 manufacturers receive those or do they acquire them so 21 they can have information about Monsanto's products? 22 A. Yes, they have access to those bulletins. 23 ft And apparently in this case Monsanto obtained access to 24 Barrett Chemical's bulletin on Cumar. 25 Would you agree that is true? 30C PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4S70S IS 171 893-4321 3220 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1317)792-4712 PAGE ^ 38 WATER PCB-SD0000037572 ________________________________________________________ ________________________________ THl I_l r Y COURT REPORTERS INC 1 A. They iuu.it tiuVe. ) g. And fur whatever reason, it could be for learning what 3 type of information Barrett processed as their coatings 4 or what they're testing, their coatings for or for whatever 5 uses, but it would be used within Monsanto's business, 6 wouldn't it? 7 A. Yes. 8 MR. WOODWORTH: I'd ask that it be admitted 9 as a business record exception, Your Honor. 10 MR. JUNGERIIELD: Well, Your Honor, this 11 doesn't appear to be a record made by Monsanto and kept 12 in the normal course of Monsanto's business. This does not 13 seem to come within the ambit of business records exclu 14 sions . IS The formula for Cumar refers to Neville Cumar and 16 this talks about the Barrett Company and the Allied 17 Company. 18 So again it would appear to be hearsay as to this i 19 witness. 20 MR. WOODWORTH: Your Honor, substantial 21 reference within the answers to interrogatories, which 22 I will be getting to, over the course of years in this 23 case as to our request to Defendants about Cumar and repeated 24 answers Cumar is this and Cumar is that. And I think ' 25 it's relevant in that sense and I only have one question 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B706 15171 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW MICHIGAN 48603 15 171792-47 12 PAGE 5 5 39_______ WATER PCB-SD0000037573 tri-city COURT REPORTERS INC 1 of Lilli, busic_iiiy. 2 THE COURT: Are you offering that exhibit as 3 substantive evidence for the truth of everything contained 4 in that? 5 . MR. WOODWORTH: No, I am not. I have it for 6 one purpose, as to information -- one provision within 7 that which would be knowledgeable within the chemical 8 community. 9 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, it would appear 10 to be offered for the truth of the matter asserted and 11 we're not in a position to know whether what Barrett or 12 Allied says in this thing about their resin called Cumar 13 is correct or not. We don't know anything about their -- 14 they have asked us in interrogatories did we know about 15 a product called Cumar. Well, sure we do. Allied Chemical 16 Company or Barrett made a resin that they call Cumar. 17 But we can't vouch for whether or not what they say about 18 their product is correct. 19 So it is not -- again it remains hearsay as to this 20 witness. I don't know what Mr. Woodworth wants to ask 21 this witness about Barrett's product, but certainly it's 22 hearsay as to Mr. Papageorge. 23 MR. WOODWORTH: Basically I don't want to ask 24 him anything abou their product. The exhibit is for one 25 purpose, what type of knowledge is possessed by the 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (S 1 71 893-432 1 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 17)792-1712 PAGt---- 55 4 0-- WATER PCB-SD0000037574 TRi-orv COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 Barrett or AlLiud Chcmi cal which they1 re publishing in > whatever year that bulletin is. 3 THE COURT: You are offering that to prove 4 the truth of what Barrett Chemical knew or what knowledge 5 is available to them? 6 MR. WOODWORTH: No. 7 THE COURT: And once again that is depriving 8 the Defendant of cross-examination of the witness who 9 prepared that document or the company that apparently pro 10 duced it. 11 MR. WOODWORTH: I'm not putting it in for that 13 purpose. I'm putting it in for the purpose of what -- 13 exemplary of what type of information was available in the 14 chemical community. 15 Mr. Papageorge stated that these bulletins are -- that 16 this was within Monsanto's possession. 17 If 1 might ask further questions. 18 THE COURT: Did he testify to that? But just 19 for example, he may have a library Lull of books on other 20 subjects and just because they're in his library doesn't 21 mean you can take one of those books out and bring it hero 22 and put it in evidence and this is the truth. it doesn't 23 -- he doesn't necessarily vouch for everything in his 24 possession. 25 MR. WOODWORTH: That is the problem, Your 300 PHOSNIX, SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 46706 15171 863-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 I 71 792-47 I 2 PAGE _____ 5 5 4 ] WATER PCB-SD0000037575 TRi v.,: v COURT REPORTERS ______________________________________________ INC 1 honor. i duii'L nioon to pul it in lor thuL purpu.se. It's _> a very lengthy bulletin. What it is, it's a bulletin 3 regarding Cumar and they make certain statements within 4 there, okay? It doesn't matter whether or not the state 5 ment is- true. It's the very fact that they make the 6 statement and which comes into the knowledge of the 7 chemical community at that particular time, whether or 8 not it's true. 9 MR. JUNGERUELO: Well, Your Honor, he is 10 obviously trying to assert that whatever Barrett says 11 about the resin called Cumar is true, the resin called 12 Cumar by Barrett -- 13 THE COURT: Excuse me. I don't believe that 14 is what he is saying. He is saying that he wants to 15 introduce portions of what that bulletin says, whether or 16 not it's true, to show that that was knowledge in the 17 community at the time that it was published. 18 MR. JUNGERHELD: What is the relevance of 19 Cumar ~ of this resin called Cumar made by Barrett or 20 Allied Chemical Company to this case? The formula, they 21 have introduced, refers to a resin called Cumar made by 22 -- or it says Neville, which apparently is another ill chemical company. I think somebody said that. I think 24 Mr. Papegeorgc said that. Made by another chemical 25 company. 300 PHOENIX. BLDG SAV CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 IS 171 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517)792-4712 PAGE 5 rl 4 > WATER PCB-SD0000037576 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC I Tile Cui.iur toe1 le talking ubouL hole 1 si d silo coating J invented back in 1941 by the Concrete Silo Company. 3 THE COURT: I know all that. 4 MR. JUNGERHELD: It is not a resin by Cumar 5 or a resin by Barrett and this says effective October 6 1st, 1950. It doesn't appear to be -- there doesn't 7 appear to be any relevance whatsoever. 8 TIIE COURT: What is the relevance? 9 MR. WOODWORTH: The relevance is extremely 10 important to this case. And if the only objection is to 11 relevance, 1 would ask that 1 be Dormitted to ask the 12 question because if the objection is to relevance I can 13 show the relevance and I don't think with this Jury having 14 been here for substantial amount of time, they're going 15 to be easily -- they can easily be instructed if it's 16 irrelevant, to disregard it. 17 THE COURT: I'll allow it. Go ahead. 18 MR. WOODWORTH: Thunk you. 19 MR. DAVIDSON: I'd place my objection on the 20 record, also, as it applies to my client. I believe ho 21 is saying what's known in the chemical community, not 22 to silo people. 23 MR. WOODWORTH: I would also contend that 24 it's applicable to C i B Silo. 25 THE COURT: I'll allow it over objection. 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (5 171893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 171792-47 12 Pllit . WATER PCB-SD0000037577 Tfil C.i TY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 What is the numoci on taut? >> MR. WOODWORTH: 44 3 Q. I'm going to mark this page here for you, Mr. Papageorge, 4 because it is a lengthy bulletin and the pages are not 5 numbered. 6 Near the back of this bulletin, within this Exhibit 7 44, would you please read that paragraph, including its 8 caption. 9 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, if the request 10 is going to be to read aloud, I'd ask that the Jury be 11 instructed that this is not for the truth of the matter 13 asserted by Barrett or Allied or whoever, about this resin 13 called Cumar. - 14 MR. WOODWORTH: I would agree with that 15 THE COURT: There is a stipulation of the 16 parties, members of the Jury. You understand that. Go 17 ahead. 18 0- If you'd read that, please, Mr. Papageorge. 19 A. The caption reads: 20 '''Cumar', resin and chlorinated bodies. Useful blends 21 of Cumar resin with chlorinated organic compounds have 22 been made." 23 Q. Okay. Excuse me for one moment. Polychlorinated 24 biphenyl is one of those chlorinated organic compounds, is 25 it not? JOO PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (31 /I 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW MICHIGAN 48603 IS l n 7*8* 47 12 page 5 54 4 WATER PCB-SD0000037578 TRi :v COURT REPORTERS INC 1 A Yos. I y Okay. Fine. if you'd continue, then. 3 MR. JUNGERHELD: I'm sorry. We can't find 4 that in here. 5 : THE COURT: See if you can help him. How 6 many pages back? How many pages is it back, Mr. 7 Papageorge? 8 A. It's hard to tell. 9 THE COURT: About 10 pages from the back. 10 A At least. 11 THE COURT: Fifteen. Do you have the heading? 12 A Cumar resin and chlorinated bodies. 13 THE COURT: It would be over on the right14 hand margin, right-hand paragraph or column, about halfway 15 down. 16 A It's after Page 45 on the right-hand corner, 17 y Now, if you'd continue reading, if you'd start over, 18 Mr. Papageorge. 19 A "Useful blends of Cumar resin with chlorinated 20 organic compounds have been made. The Cumar resin 21 functions as a resinous extender and in some cases as 22 a binder and film-forming agent. The chlorinated 23 bodies improve the fire retarding dualities of the 24 compound. Users shouLd ompLoy appropriate precau 25 tions to avoid toxicity characteristics of chlorinated 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (5171893-4321 52^6 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 17)792-47 12 PAGE_____ SS45-- WATER PCB-SD0000037579 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 pi uUUC t S > yt Thank you. What is the date of this? I believe Counsel 3 stated that it was 1950 or something. If vou'd look at 4 the next sheet I think there is some assistance there. 5 A. There is a statement that says: Effective October 1, 6 1950. 7 Q, Mr. Papageorge -- 8 A. Now, 1 should uualifv that. That effective date is typed 9 on a price list, so that would tell me that the prices on 10 this page become effective October 1, 1950. 11 I see no connection between that and the bulletin, 12 althouqh on the bulletin I see some references to copy 13 rights. Copyrights 1938, 1948. Those are the only dates 14 that I can see. In Qi So that bulletin, being circulated within the scientific l(> community or the industrial community or the chemical 17 18 ' community, does in fact -- does warn people about using resins in contact with or combination with organic 19 chlorinates, to watch for toxicity, does it not? 20 A. That supports our statement in our bulletins. 21 y. Mr. Papageorge, you are familiar with the Wall Street 22 Journal, aren't you? 23 A. Yes, i am. 24 Q. I would imagine that you have read it on occasion? 25 A. I do. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG 8AY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (SI 7) 893-4321 5^J6 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 *5171 792*4712 pai;p 5546 WATER PCB-SD0000037580 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 yi And fur business leports would you consider it fairly 2 reliable? 3 A. Fairly so, ves. 4 Ql I'm going to ask you to read to yourself in the second 5 column here, riuht here, beginning just that sentence. 6 A. I have read it. 7 y. Okay. 8 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, if this witness 9 is goincj to be asked questions from this, I wonder if we 10 might be allowed to see it. 11 MR. WOODWORTH: Well, I hadn't intended upon 12 introducing it. Your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Well, let,,him have a right to l-i see it if you're going to ask the questions. is yi Does that not state -- m MR. JUNGERHELD: Please, Your Honor, may we 17 read it? 18 THE COURT: Let him have a chance to road 19 it. 20 MR. WOODWORTH: t can indicate to them the 21 sentence I had -- 22 THE COURT: Go ahead, show them. 23 MR. WOODWORTH: Right here. 24 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, L would object 25 to that. This is simply a newspaper article produce d by 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (5171893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW MICHIGAN 48603 (517) 792 4712 PAGE _____5 517 WATER PCB-SD0000037581 _____________________________________________________ TRI-I.ITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 some follow named Panonbaum which would bo clearly hearsay 2 as to this witness. We have absolutely no opportunity to 3 cross-examine Mr. Panenbaum about wherever he may have 4 gotten the information that he purports to set forth in 5 this article. 6 MR. WOODWORTH: I have just two questions 7 regarding it, not the entire article, just one sentence 8 out of the article and it isn't for the truth of the 9 matter assserted, it's his opinion in regards to a response 10 to this I'm concerned with. 11 MR. JUNGERHELD: Well, we've gone through a 12 whole series of picking and choosing out of a lot of publi* 13 cations here, and it presents a different situation as 14 to scientific publications or Monsanto's bulletins or 15 something like this, but this is a newspaper article 16 written by a newspaper and I think that is outside the 17 ambit of the documents we've been talking about here as 18 to hearsay. 19 THE COURT: Show me the sentence you're 20 talking about here. 21 MR. JUNGERHELD: It's a two-page article, 22 too, apparently. 23 THE COURT: 1 guess l don't understand why 24 you have to use this, Mr. Woodworth. Can't you just 25 ask him that question? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 46706 1317)393-4321 52.26 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 (6 17)792-47 12 F-AGt 5 5 4 8 WATER PCB-SD0000037582 TRINITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________INC i 1 MR. UoGDWUR'i'IJ: i would liKo to ask him in 2 context to this particular article, Your Honor. 3 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, the question, by 4 the way. has already been asked and answered of Mr. 5 Papageorge yesterday. 6 MR. WOODWORTH: And that is why I'd like to 7 ask him in context regarding that article. And I have 8 numerous others, too, if I might lay a foundation for 9 these then, first. i 10 THE COURT: Go ahead. Lay a foundation. 11 Ql Mr. Papageorge, do you consider the New York Times a 13 reliable publication? 13 A Generally so, yes. 14 ft Do you consider the publication of the Food and Drug 15 Administration, their magazine entitled Consumer, do you 16 consider that reliable and reputable? 17 A Generally so. 18 ft And do you consider -- I think we already asked about 19 Science magazine -- I'm sorry, not Science, Chemical and 30 Engineering News. You in fact receive this publication, 31 don't you? 33 A Yes, L do. 33 ft And Monsanto advertises in this nublioetion or has in 31 the past? 35 A Yes. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1517)893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 17)792-47 12 PAGE S 5 4 <1______ WATER PCB-SD0000037583 ______________________________________________________________________________________ INC. TRI C . T Y COURT REPORTERS 1 ft And Monsanto, 1 bei ievo tbo company itself, subscribes > to Chemical and Engineering News? 3 A Yes. 4 ft And we even had some reference to, I think, at one time, 5 Environmental Health Perspectives. 6 Did you testify to that on direct examination? 7 A I don't recall but I'm aware of the publication. 8 ft Something published after the conference at Quail Roost? 9 A Yes, that was the first volume, first issue of that -journal. 10 ft Would you consider the materials contained within that 11 Journal published by the -- who is this by. Department of 13 Health, Education and Welfare, would you consider it 13 renutable? 14 A Yes. They aren't without their flaws, however. 15 ft Now, without asking you any further questions, I'm going 16 to ask you also to read just a sentence out of each one 17 of these, okay? 18 THE COURT: To himself? 19 MR. WOODWORTH: Yes. I will ask one more 20 question. 21 ft Are you familiar with the Department of Health, Education and Welfare statement of policies regarding polychlorinated 23 24 A 25 ft biphenyls in freshwater fish? I believe i recall that, yes. Now, the first one 1 asked you is in regard to the Wall 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAT CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 71 693-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5171792 4712 PAGE ______S5.SA- WATER PCB-SD0000037584 TNi C,TY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________ _____________________ _______________________________________________ I Street Journal. 2 Do you remember that one? 3 A. Yes. 4 Ql The second one was the New York Times. I'm going to 5 direct.your attention to one sentence here. This one. 6 MR. WOODWORTH: I'll show this to Counsel. 7 Qt And then the next one from the FDA Consumer, just ask you 8 to read -- and this is a rather long sentence, but where 9 I just marked it with a red dot. 10 A You just want the one sentence? 11 Ql Yes, just read it to yourself. I'll show this to Counsel 12 in a minute while you are looking -- out of Chemical 13 Engineering News, this part, that one paragraph. And 14 within tiie Environmental Health Perspectives the article 15 by Nisbet, and I have that marked with the yellow tab, 16 if you'd read that, the second sentence. 17 Have you had an oportunity to read that? 18 A Yes. . 19 Ul And lastly, Mr. hapageoryc, this particular time, the 20 HEW policy statement on PCB's in fish. That sentence 21 there. 22 Mr. Papugeorye, all those sentences or the sentence 23 out of ouch one of those particular articles all had one 24 prevailing theme, did they not? 25 A Yes. 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (517) 693-4321 54J6 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5171 792-4712 5551 WATER PCB-SD0000037585 tri-city COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 y. Okay. i asked you yesterday whether or not Monsanto was 2 the sole manufacture of PCB's in the United States. 3 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, that question 4 was indeed asked and answered yesterday by this witness. 5 And we *-- apparently he wants to go into these publications; 6 from various newspapers with this witness on that point 7 regarding something he has already asked and answered. 8 Now, these publications remain hearsay as to this 9 witness. They're newspaper-type articles, general press10 type articles, and as I look through the hearsay questions. 11 I see no exception that applies to newspaper articles. 12 This question can be and was asked. 13 THE COURT: I'll let you finish in just a 14 second. We want to take a short recess, anyway. IS So, members of the Jury, if you'd retire to the Jury 16 Room I'll clear this matter up and take a 10 minute 17 recess. Then we'll return. 18 (Whereupon a legal argument was held out of 19 tile presence of the Jury.) 20 (Whereupon a recess was taken.) 21 THE COURT: Be seated please. 22 Go ahead. 23 MR. WOODWORTH: Thank you. Your Honor. 24 (ji (By Mr. Woodwurth, continuing:) Mr. Papucjeorge, when 25 you took this office within Monsanto in 1970, we covered 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48704 (3171 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (51 7) 792-4712 mage___5.55.2 WATER PCB-SD0000037586 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 sonic legislation that led up to 1970. There was addi 2 tional legislation that passed in 1970, was there not, 3 regarding environmental concerns? 4 A (No response.) 5 Qt One being, for example, FIFRA, which we already testified 6 to. Federal Insecticide, Fungicide Act? 7 A. I thought it was '69, but I could be wrong. 8 Q. Okay. Also the Clean Air Act of 1970, another in a series 9 10 A. 11 gi 12 t of Clean Air Acts passed? Yes. And the EPA having been created by the NEPA Act of '69. The EPA came into existence in 1970? 13 A. That is correct. 14 0. And also there was a group formulated or brought into 15 existence entitled the Council on Environmental Quality? 16 A Yes. 17 Q, Are you familiar with that group? 18 A lam. 19 Qi And what was that group? What was its purpose? 20 A It is, as best 1 understand, a part of the executive 21 office of the White House and it is the udvisary group to 22 the president and iiis staff on environmental matters. 23 y, The first occurrence, or the first action under your 24 stewardship, so to say, within Monsanto in February 19, 25 1970, a letter was sent out, is that fair to say? 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 46706 15171693-4321 5326 SI ATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 40603 15 171792-47 12 PAUfc 55 5 3 WATER PCB-SD0000037587 1 A. 2 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. That was the cituL document that left Monsanto after I was assigned the job. 3 ft 4 Apparently I pulled the wrong one. I pulled out the one marked February 27 but there was one before that wasn't 5 6 A. there? Distributors? I'd have to see it to refresh my memory. 7 ft S I have it right here. 410A and U, dated February 19, 1970, sent to dis 9 tributors, and that was just to distributors, correct? 10 A. 11 ft 12 13 Yes. This reads like a letter that 1 read yesterday. Okay. And since it says distributors on it would that be onle current distributors? There that were distributing Monsanto's product in 1970, or perhaps tailing over from 196S 7 14 A. Yes. 15 ft 16 I'd next like: to direct your attention, Mr. Papageorge, 1 to this bulletin. Defendant's Exhibit No. 31, which you 17 testified to yesterday, and this is dated March of 1970, 18 correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Qt Okay. That bulletinwas the product of a number of 21 people or departments within Monsanto, wasn't it? 22 A. Yes. 23 Ui For example, of people from the plasticizers group. In 24 fact that's primarily their bulletin? 25 A. Yes. Their principalcontributors, yes. 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (317)893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792-47 12 PAGE 5 5 5 4 WATER PCB-SD0000037588 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 ft At that time; who was the head uf the plasticizers group? 2 Plasticizers sales group? 3 A. Sales group? 4 ft Sales group. Yes. . 5 A. Walter Schalk. 6 ft Who is Cummings Payton? 7 A. Cummings Payton reported into the organization headed by 3 Mr. Schalk. 9 ft Was he under Mr. Schalk then? 10 A. Yes. And he was assigned the marketing of plasticizers. 11 ft And also contributing to that bulletin was a Research 12 Department, Legal Department, Medical Department, correct? i:l A. Yes. 14 ft And you yourself -- you reviewed that publication? 15 A. Yes. lfi ft And that last paragraph on the last content page of the 17 bulletin states that it's -- to paraphrase it, Mr. 18 Papageorge, basically it's to be avoided as a waterproof 19 ing agent in silos? 20 A. Yes. It's paraphrased, but it's in essence correct. 21 ft Mr. Papageorge, I'm going to direct your attention, now, 22 to Plaintiff's Exhibit 179A. You have seen this 23 before lately? 24 A. Yes. 25 ft And when was it -- do you want to take a moment to 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (SI 7) 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517) 792 4712 pace WATER PCB-SD0000037589 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________________ _________________ __________________________________________________INC. 1 f ami Liar ize yuuiiiclt with it it you haven't road it? 2 A I remember the contents. 3 y Okay. Now, you received this memorandum from Dr. Kelly 4 on or about March 30th? 5 A. Yes. 6 y Of 1970? 7 A. Yes. 8 y And does not Dr. Kelly express to you the fact that 9 Aroclor, or PCB's in the form -- in the specific form of 10 Aroclor 1254, were found in at least three herds in Ohio? 11 A Dr. Kelly was relaying to me what Dr. Hill had reported 12 to him, yes. 13 y Okay. 1 understand that. And this is -- what I'm asking, 14 Mr. Papageorge, is what's being relayed to you. 15 A Yes. 16 y Now, it says three herds. Can you tell us who those are? 17 A 1 would only be speculating on two of those herds because 18 at that time I was not aware of any herds by dairy name, 19 y You subsequently became aware of, you said, at least two 20 names? 21 A Yes. 22 y And what names are those? 23 A The Humphreys and Schwarzwalder farms. 24 y Did you ever ascertain or become aware of the third name? 25 A I did not. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 171 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 15 171792-4712 PUCiE 5556 WATER PCB-SD0000037590 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ___________________________________ ___________________________INC I ft Within that fii.sl paragraph, Mr. Pupageurye, Dr. Kelly 2 states that the -- quoting, he says -- he says, "He has 3 traces of contamination back to three silos. Traces back 4 to three different silos." That would be referring to 3 Aroclor 1254 in the milk, is that right? 6 A. 1 would assume so, yes. 7 ft Do you have any problems with the word contamination? Is 8 that clear to you what that is referring to? 9 A. Knowing Dr. Kelly and understanding from previous en 10 counters with the gentleman I understood what he was 11 telling me that the presence of PCB's in milk. 12 ft Okay. When he says in fact that word "contamination" he's 13 talking about PCB's, or the Aroclor in the milk? 14 A In the milk, yes. 15 ft What impression -- you talked quite a bit on testifying 16 yesterday on direct examination of impressions that you 17 developed over the course of your -- what impressions 18 did you develop as a result of reading the first sentence 19 of this, that there were PCB's being found in -- the first 20 and second sentence, PCB's identified or particularly 21 Aroclor 1254 being found in samples of milk in three Ohio 22 dairy herds? . 23 A The impression I had that this warranted further study. 24 ft Okay. The very end .of that paragraph, Mr. Papageorge, 25 says the words that some of the milk had to be destroyed. 300 PHOENIX. SLOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 171 693-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS 17) 792-47 t 2 PAGE 5557 WATER PCB-SD0000037591 TRI City COURT REPORTERS INC 1 Would that loud you -- or did that lcavu you with the 2 impression that as a result of a milk being destroyed that 3 perhaps these three herds, or these farmers owning the 4 three herds would have suffered some type of economic 5 loss? 6 A. Certainly. 7 ft Going to the next paragraph, Mr. Papageorge, it states 8 that after -- in the second line, it states that the silos, 9 using a formulation that contained 1254. Did you take 10 that to mean Aroclor 1254? 11 A. I'm trying to find the -- okay. I see it. 12 Yes. That's what it meant to me. 13 ft Okay. And going further down in that paragraph, Mr. 14 Papageorge, at the present they will have to destroy about 15 150 tons of silage which is valued at about $30 per ton. 16 Do you see that part? 17 A I see it, yes. 18 ft Does that not leave you with the impression that again 19 these farmers are suffering some type of economic loss as 20 a result of having to destroy silage? 21 A Yes. 22 ft And that a hundred and fifty times thirty would be at 23 least $4500 economic loss, if this silage was destroyed? 24 A Yes. 25 ft And then after that it says there may be as many as 50 300 PHOENIX. BLOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 (3171893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 171792-47 12 PAGE _______ 55J18. WATER PCB-SD0000037592 1 other diLos involved in Ohio? 2 A- That's what -- TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 3 Qi Did you attempt to locate those silos? 4 A. Through Dr. Hill, yes. 5 Q. Did you. yourself attempt to locate those silos? 6 A. Well, there was no other way but to go to the person who 7 stated there are 50 silos. 8 Q. Okay. And the person who informed you was Dr. Kelly and 9 he's saying Dr. Hill informed him, correct? 10 A. But I was aware of all of this before Dr. Kelly's memoran 11 dum arrived at my desk. 12 If you will remember 1 talked to Dr. Hill first. This 13 is a repeat in terms of my knowledge of information. 14 Ql Dr. Kelly expresses in the last sentence of that second 15 paragraph that they, referring to, 1 assume, Dr. Hill and 16 the Department of Agriculture, are also looking into the 17 fat contamination in the cows themselves. 18 Did that give you any type of concern, or did -- what 19 type of impression did that leave you with? Fat contamina 20 tion? 21 A. I was aware that the PCB's do accumulate in fat. This 22 seemed like a vuiy iogical place to look Cur more informa 23 tion. 24 <j. When were you aware of the fact that PCB's accumulate in 25 the fat? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 <517) 893*4321 52J6 STATE ST SAtilNAvV. MICHIGAN 48603 15 1-7) 792*47 12 5559 WATER PCB-SD0000037593 TRl CITY COURT REPORTERS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I-N--C-.-------------------1 A. Oh, within the -- just before this. Thu first throe months 2 of 1970. 3 & And when it says fat contamination, you had no problem 4 understanding what was meant? I would assume -- were you 5 left with the impression that it was PCB's they were 6 talking about? 7 A. Yes. 8 ft Or Aroclor 1254? A. Well, in this case PCB's. But any other material they 9 10 might find when they analyze the fat. 11 ft Okay. And then Dr. Kelly says all in all this could be 12 quite a serious problem having legal and publicity over 13 tones . Did you agree with that? 14 15 A. I didn't have enough information to personally arrive at 16 those conclusions. 17 ft And then the next paragraph, the second sentence says, 18 "When are we going to tell our customers not to use any 19 Aroclor in any paint formulation that contains food, feed, 20 or water for animals or humans." Correct? 21 A. That is right. 22 ft Monsanto never went b.u-k and told it's direct sales 23 customers about this did they? These letters that went 24 out did not go to these direct sales customers? I believe 25 you testified yesterday? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1917)993-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 171792-4712 PAGE 5560 WATER PCB-SD0000037594 TRl .;iTY COURT REPORTERS INC. L L On that list that is -- you are coircct. 2 Q. Nor did Monsanto go oat axid toll silo owners about this? 8 A. No. That would not bo normal. 4 Q. Nor did Monsanto run any advertisements within any trade 5 journals and dairy journals? 6 A. That would be abnormal also. 7 Qt Nor did Monsanto run any advertisements or notices with 8 any farming journals? 9 A. No. 10 ft And this was in consideration of the fact that you were 11 aware at that particular time that there were at least 12 two dairy herds and their owners faced economic losses as 10 a result of this stuff being in their milk or silos, 14 correct? 15 A. As a result of one individual deciding to embargo the 16 milk supply, an action that was unique in this country 17 and remains so to this day. No other milk has ever been 18 embargoed because of PCB's in this country. 19 (Jl Nevertheless, Mr. Papageorge, these people did, and you 20 were aware at that particular time there were -- people 21 were going to suffer economic damage, ur at least three 22 people had, or at least three groups of people? 28 A. I was aware their milk was embargoed, yes, and T could 24 speculate they were suffering some economic harm, yes. 25 Q. Speculate they were suffering from ocnomie loss from the 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 1817)893-4321 5 28 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I 71 792-47 I 2 PAGE 55 fij____ WATER PCB-SD0000037595 TRI CiTY COURT REPORTERS INC. I milk being destroyed, or having to destroy the silage at 2 that point? 3 A. The silage had not been destroyed yet. 4 ft Did it occur to you, or were you left an impression that 5 these people who owned the 50 other silos might sustain 6 the same type of economic damage? 7 A. Only if their iniLk analyzed at a level that Dr. Hill would 8 consider inappropriate and it was up to Dr. Hill to take- 9 whatever action he thought appropriate at the time. I _ 10 could not know and would not know what he would do in the 11 future. 12 ft Mr. Papageorge, I'm going to show you what's been admitted 13 as Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 180B and identified as a 14 memorandum from Dr. Tucker to yourself dated April 16, 15 1970. 16 Have you seen that lately? 17 A. Yes, I have. 18 ft And when was the last time you looked it over? 19 A. A couple of weeks ago. 20 ft Now, this is shortly after, or 16 days after you received 21 the memorandum from Dr. Kelly, is that correct? p>*"> A That is correct. 23 ft Would you please read the -- I'll just ask you questions. 24 I believe it's been read to the Jury already, Mr. 25 Papageorge. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70S 15171 993-4321 5229 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15171 792-4712 PAGE 5 5 6 2 WATER PCB-SD0000037596 7RI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 Lii the bocon J pu t i a ph of this dues it nut state that, 2 "Unaltered Aruclur 1254 was found in the silo scrapings." 3 Is that correct? 4 A. It does say that. 5 & Okay. And Aroclor 1254 is Monsanto's product? 6 A Yes. 7 fit And Dr. Tucker is who? Or I'm sorry, E.S. Tucker is who? 8 A E.S. Tucker is the analytical chemist at that time who 9 was responsible for PCB analysis. 10 ft Okay. And you testified yesterday in direct examination 11 that over sometime in the early '70's Monsanto worked 12 on methodology or identification of PCB's, is that correct? 13 A That's correct. 14 ft And was Dr. Tucker the man in charge of that? 15 A Yes. 16 ft Okay. So when he's reporting here he's finding unaltered i 17 1254 in the silo scrapings and where the raw milk extrac 18 tion contains an estimated PCB level of .6 to .7 parts 19 per million, now, the isomer distribution of polychlori 20 nated biphenyls, that's referring to the different types 21 of isomers contained within the PCB itself? 22 A That is right. That is right. 23 ft Within the raw milk extract it was altered with respect to 24 the Aroclor 1254 standard, is that correct? 25 A. Yes. That's analytical chemistry talk. What he is 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN AB706 (517)893-4321 S226 STATE ST SAGINAW MICHIGAN 413603 (517)792 4712 ^AGfc ------ 55-62---- WATER PCB-SD0000037597 TRl CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. _______ 1 saying that in looking at his scruples the material 2 found in the silo scrapings had a pattern identical to 3 a standard of Aroclor 1254. 4 ft It seems to me, Mr. Papagoorge, that Dr. Tucker is saying 5 unaltered Aroclor 1254 was found in the silo scrapings. 6 Not anything like it but in fact unaltered Aroclor 1254. 7 A. Well, you don't understand industrial analytical chemists' 8 jargon. He was communicating clearly to anyone who 9 understands this business that it matched his pattern of 10 his standard. It's an unaltered material he was observing. n Q. And where does it say that it matches the pattern? 12 A It's understood if you know anything about gas liquid 13 chromatography, that's the way it's reoorted. 14 ft And what he says in the fourth paragraph -- what does 15 qualitatively correct mean? Down here. There's no doubt 16 that the ODA results are qualitatively correct. 17 A That means that the peaks and valleys of the chart 18 produced durinq the analysis matched the peaks and valleys 19 of the standard PCB material used. 20 ft Doesn't it in fact mean from the language of that letter 21 that the material was in fact qualified and identified as 22 Aroclor 1254? 23 A No, it doesn't. 24 ft Okay. You're saying that Mr. Tucker -- or Dr. Tucker means 25 that it's something like Aroclor 1254? Is that correct? 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 71 393-4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I 7) 792-47 I 2 5 5PAGE------- 64-- WATER PCB-SD0000037598 1 A. Qualitatively, yes. TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 2 yi Okay. Dr. Tucker goes on to say that interestingly, 3 this is probably the first clear-cut chance we have had 4 to observe which PCB homologes are most resistant to 5 metabolism, et cetera, in mammal, is that correct? 6 A. That is correct. 7 Q, And he in fact did label the peaks in the Aroclor 1254 8 electronic capture chromatogram according to the hcraologues 9 they represent, is that correct? 10 A He is referring to an attachment to this letter. 11 Q. Okay. And in what he's labeled the peaks and valleys 12 of Aroclor 1254, he's not saying like Aroclor 1254. He's 13 saying Aroclor 1254. 14 A That is his standard. That is his standard he's using 15 to measure the unknown against. 16 Q. Let's look at this last paragraph, Mr. Papageorge. 17 There's another interesting sidelight is that we have 18 observed strikingly similar isomer alterations in the 19 electron capture chromatograms of an extract of human fat 20 biopsy fat sample supplied to us by the WARF Institute. 21 Who's fat was this and what was this fat for? 22 A I don't remember. 23 U. That would seem to indicate that hr. Tucker had knowledge 24 of the presence of similar isomers to these presences in 25 human fat, is that correct? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (5171893-4321 5-236 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 ,r>l 71 7<J3 4712 PAGE 5 5 6 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037599 1 A. That is true. TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. ( 2 y. And also similar extraction in raw milk samples supplied 3 by the Maryland Co-op Milk Producers? 4 A. Yes. 5 Ql And both of these organizations had suspicion of PCB 6 contamination. Unfortunately they couldn't get the result:; 7 because the limited amount of the sample? The low levels? 8 A. That is right. Could not be confirmed. 9 ft So there were even suspicions in Maryland about PCB's 10 in humans, would that be fair to assume, from this letter? II A Well, it's my understanding this is related to the spray 12 ing for weed control and cattle grazing in the area. 13 ft That PCB's were being used as an extender in herbicides then? 14 A No. Just along with used oils of all kinds to blend the 15 pesticide into and spray. 16 ft What impression did you develop about the presence of 17 PCB's in human fat in April of 1970? Did that cause you 18 any concern? 19 A No. You can't make an impression on only one sample with 20 one unconfirmed analysis. 21 ft In May of 1970 Monsanto sent out another letter, didn't 22 they, you testified to yesterday? 23 A I think I recall one, ves. 24 ft This is an example of one that went to Mr. Giloth at 25 Central Solvents in Chicago? 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 19171893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5171792-4712 PAGE 5 ^ WATER PCB-SD0000037600 TRI-CiTY COURT REPORTERS INC I You stole within hie Second page, top paragraph, } after the comments, "And being a concerned and responsible 3 member of the world community." 4 Do you think a responsible and concerned member of 5 the world community would investigate the presence of 6 PCB's in humans in April of 1970? 7 A There was no reason in that point in time -- there was 8 no reason at that point in time to make any broad ; 9 assumptions regarding the presence of an industrial chemi 10 cal in the human body. There's just not enough informal ; 11 tion. 12 ft Mr. Papageorge, I asked you a question yesterday why you 13 just didn't stop the sales of this stuff. You said that 14 wouldn't be fair to your customers. Is that correct? 15 A That's one factor to consider, yes. 16 ft Yet you were aware that the stuff was getting into the 17 environment in a fairly substantial manner? Was getting 18 into cows, silage, milk, and one verified instance in a I 19 human being, and yut you felt it would not be fair to 20 your customers to discontinue -- immediately discontinue 21 the sales of this material, is that correct? 22 A That is not correct. You made some broad assumptions, 23 sir. There was only one unconfirmed human fat analysis. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A More were planned to be done if we could get the samples. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1517) 893*432) 5236 STATE ST. SAGINAW MICHIGAN 48603 (517) 792 4712 PAGE ____ 5567 - WATER PCB-SD0000037601 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 You said that was why -- you implied it was widespread in 2 cattle, cows and dairies. At that point in time there 3 was only two dairies, one state, and it seemed a very 4 special kind of situation. 5 ft Let's go back to Dr. Kelly's letter. Doctor. 6 MR. JUNGERHELD: Excuse me, Your Honor. I'm 7 not certain the witness was done with his answer. 8 THE COURT: Are you finished? 9 A. I have forgotten what was going to say now. 10 ft Dr. Kelly's letter states that there is three silos in 11 this situation, maybe another 50, is that correct? 12 A. That's what the letter says, yes, sir. 13 ft And it says these PCB's are getting into the milk, right? 14 In these three instances? 15 A. Yes. He's reporting what Dr. Hill told him. Yes. 16 0 It says they're also investigating this material getting 17 into the fat of the animals? 18 A. Yes. 19 ft Now, with your knowledge that this material was fat 20 soluble, did you understand that if a human being would 21 drink the milk of some of those contaminated cows, or eat >> the meat of some of those contaminated cows that they 23 might be receiving some of that PCB themselves? 24 A. Might, yes. This is why further study was called for and 25 this is what was done. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 7) 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15)7)792-4712 PACE S_____ WATER PCB-SD0000037602 TRI-ClTY COURT REPORTERS _______ ___________________________ INC. 1 ft And in fact, this t'jiticuiar letter back in Match of 2 1970, besides those three instances, you were also made 3 aware of another 50 silos with another 50 potential 4 incidents, is that correct? Potential? 5 A. That's right. That's whv we continued the dialogue with 6 Dr. Hill. 7 Q, And that's why you continued to sell this until August 8 30th letting customers know you're going to be pulling it 9 off the market, is that right? To be fair to your 10 customers? 11 A The implication is we sold it to the silo coating maker. 12 That is not -- 13 ft No, I'm not saying that. I'm sayina you're selling it 14 open-end. Selling it in open-ended uses. Open uses. Is 15 that correct? 16 A Those are the uses that were perceived to be the type that 17 would cause, or could cause environmental problems. Not 18 human health problems. 19 ft Okay. 20 A There is a difference in the amount of material involved. 21 ft Mr. Papageorge, how much did it cost Monsanto to make 22 a Dound of PCB? 23 A I don't recall. 24 ft Okay. Did you recall at tone time, for example, in 25 the Bethlehem Mink case in your deposition? 300 PHOENIX. SLOG SAV CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 71 S93-4321 5026 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I 71 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5569 WATER PCB-SD0000037603 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS 1 A. I used to know these numbers. 2 y. In the latter -- or through the '60's and into 1970 how 3 much did Monsanto sell, or what was the average price per 4 pound of PCB? 5 A. Oh, I would be guessing now. 6 y Could you give us a percentage differential between the 7 cost of production and the sale price? 8 A. No, I can't. 9 y Would you think your testimony in the Bethlehem Mink 10 case and your deposition in 1972 would have been 11 accurate? 12 A. It was a best guess in terms of my recall at that time. i:i y If we might come back to that in a bit, Mr. Papageorge? 14 I don't have that before me immediately. 15 When you found out about the silo contamination in 16 Ohio didn't you go to Cummings Payton and try to find 17 out what sales had been made to silo companies? 18 A. Yes. 19 y And when did you do that? 20 A The same day. Right alter l finished my conversation 21 with Dr. Hill on the first call. 22 & Okay. So you got contact from Dr. Hill and you thought 23 you better check on silo companies, correct? 24 A Correct. 25 y Okay. And what did Mr. Payton tell you? What was the 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (517)393-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4S603 (5171792-4712 PAGE 5570 WATER PCB-SD0000037604 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS __________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 result of yi>ur ooiituot ui your invest loution to find out 2 the sales to silo companies? 3 A. There were no silo companies listed on the documents 4 available to Dr. Payton in the discharge of his daily 5 duties. He then offered to search further and report back 6 to me if he found any indication that we did sell to silo 7 companies. 8 Several days later he came back and he said he has 9 not been able to locate any customer with the name "silo" 10 in it. 11 ft Mr. Papageorge, I'm going to show you what's been admitted 12 as Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 154 representing to be a sales 13 summary of -- sales of Aroclor 1254 -- yes. 14 A. I don't know. 15 ft Sales summary search of all non-electrical customers of 16 Aroclor 1254, is that correct? 17 A. That's what it says. 18 ft Now, going back to the front page of this, it states that 19 this summary is not complete for the years of 1950's and 20 early 1960's, correct? 21 A. Yes. ft Okay. And that there were more customers than shown in 23 those years but there's no surviving information that 24 would enable Monsanto to list the others? 25 A That is correct. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48700 19171893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (917)792 47 12 'AGE 5 571 WATER PCB-SD0000037605 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS - -- ' -____________________________________________________ __________________ _______________ __________________ _______________________ INC.__________ 1 Q. Okay. And that the note on this is that it'a subject to j 2 a confidentiality order, is that correct? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. Mr. Papageorge, that sales summary was produced in Court 5 Dursuant to a court order that was obtained from His Honor 6 to produce the sales summary. That was produced in 1982. 7 Now, as a result of that production of that sales summary, 8 together with other information that we acquired from 9 answers to interrogatories, we were able to compile this ~ 10 chart in 1982 of sales to silo companies. However, you're 11 saying that in 1970 you were unable to ascertain within 12 Monsanto 12 years earlier than we obtained this information 13 of any sales to silo companies, is that correct? 14 A. That is correct. IS y Have you seen this chart before, Mr. Papageroge? Before 16 yesterday, I mean? 17 A. No. 18 y We did establish that -- I think we did, perhaps I should 19 ask you. 20 After 1965 there may have been additional sales to 21 silo companies, however, if there were they were through 4a distributors? 23 A. That is my understanding, yes. 24 y Do you in fact know as a result of your review of this 25 case, the materials supplied in this case, or your own 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1917)893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4B603 tS I 7) 792-47 1 2 PAGE 5 5 7 2 WATER PCB-SD0000037606 rn. v.iry COURT REPORTERS _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 personal investigation whether or not there were sales j after 1965 by distributors to silo companies? 3 A. No, I do not. 4 Q. Have you reviewed the pleadings in this case? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Have you reviewed interrogatories and answers to interruga-- 7 tories? 8 A. Some of them. 9 Ql Mr. Jungerheld showed you and had you read some of these 10 letters, Mr. Papageorge. Here's another one. That was 11 sent out by Monsanto in September 30, 1971. 12 Within those letters on up to the -- through all of 12 them that you read with Mr. Jungerheld, Mr. Papageorge, 14 they say that there is presence in the environment, 15 basically? I'm paraphrasing. Is that correct? Of 16 Aroclors in the environment? 17 A. That is right. 18 (Ji There may be some problems? j 19 A. That is correct. 20 y, Doesn't say what problems might be, is that correct? 21 A. That is correct. They were unknown. 22 y. Doesn't say anything about keeping them away except for 23 the -- well, it doesn't say anvthing about keeping -- 24 or not feeding them, or not allowing animals to eat them, 25 or humans to eat them, is that correct? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY, MICHIGAN 48706 (5171 893*4321 S226 STATE ST SAGINAW MICHIGAN 48603 1517) 792-4712 f-'AGE 5 S 7 \ WATER PCB-SD0000037607 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _______ __________________ ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.________ I A. That depends on what point in time we're talking about. 2 Through 1970, as I recall,in 1970 we did send out letters to 3 individuals referring to presence in their food, animal 4 feed and the like. 5 ft Those letters did not go to the silo companies, did they? 6 Those that are listed on that list? 7 A. 1 can't answer that. The distributor was to send them 8 on. 9 ft You knew there were sales to silo companies in earlier 10 years though, did you not? 11 A. Which years? 12 ft You know Rogers Malone? 13 A. 1 know the man, yes. 14 ft He testified that he made direct sales to silo companies 15 in Indiana, at least one silo company in Indiana, from 16 the '50's for a period of years -- 17 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, I'm going to 18 object to the characterizution of the testimony of Rogers 19 Malone. Rogers Malone testified he was a customer re 20 presented -- lie did not make sales, rather he checked 21 with these people to see that they were happy with the 22 service that they were receiving. Mr. Malone did not 23 testify to making sales to silo companies. 24 THE COURT: I believe that's correct. 25 MR. WOODWORTH: r'll rephrase the question, 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1517) 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. "AGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517) 792-47 12 PACE 5574 WATER PCB-SD0000037608 1 Your Honor. TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC 2 Q. Did you chock with employees of Monsanto as to whether 3 or not they had ever serviced silo companies as to custo 4 mers? 5 A. That was my conversation with Dr. Payton. 6 & And did you -- I believe some of your employees said i during their depositions that there were bulletin boards 8 available within Monsanto. Were there ever any bulletins 9 put'up as to any customer service representatives about 10 sales to silo companies asking them to come forth -- 11 A, Bulletin board notices aren't used for such notices. 12 Q, How about employees' newsletters? 13 A. There are some. 14 Ql And was there anything ever run within the employees' 15 newsletters/ '70, '71, asking any employees if they had 16 any sales or contacts or services to any silo companies? 17 A. No. That's not customary. it.'s never been done. 18 THE COURT: In light of the hour, Mr. . 19 Woodworth, we'll break for lunch. 20 Members ot the Jury we'll look you at 1:15. Until 21 then we stand recessed. 22 (Whereupon a recess was taken until 1:15 23 o'clock P.M., Tuesday, May 22, 1984.) 24 25 -oOo- 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B706 15171893-4321 S226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15171792-4712 HAUE 5 5 7 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037609 ____________________________________ INC. TRI-CJTY COURT REPORTERS 1 (Whereupon at 1:30 o'clock P.M., Tuesday, 2 May 22, 1984, the Hearing was continued as 3 follows:) ' 4 THE COURT: Be seated please. 3 Mr. Woodworth? 6 MR. WOODWORTH: Thank you, Your Honor. 7 U (By Mr. Woodworth, continuing:) Mr. Papageorge, were you 8 familiar with or acquainted with any PCB or incident 9 alleged to be apparently caused or contributed by the 10 presence of PCB's in the midwest in Kansas, or Nebraska, 11 as a result of it coming in contact with beef cattle? 12 A. I vaguely recall some incident that occurred in that 13 general area, yes. _ 14 y, In Kansas, would it have been? IS A. I don't recall the specific state, no. 16 Ql Did you have cause to investigate that matter, or did you 17 form any impressions from that particular episode? 18 A. If I'm thinking of the right situation that was an example 19 of another accident. A one time situation. 20 y, Okay. 21 A. I personally did not get involved in the handling of that. 22 The government agencies did. And that's really all I 23 recall of the matter. 24 Ql Did you come by this information in the course of your 25 position with Monsanto? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 171 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I 71 792-47 1 2 PAGE 5 5 7 C WATER PCB-SD0000037610 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _______________________________________________________________________________ ____________________________ INC. 1 A Yes. 2 Ql And wlv^t information did you obtain other than the 3 fact it being an accidental exposure? 4 A That's all I reallyremember. 5 Ql Do you recall anything as to any health effects on 6 animals? 7 A No. 8 Q. Mr. Papageorgo, did you have anything to do -- or do 9 you recall any information as to a -- let me rephrase it 10 another way. 11 Did Monsanto ever maintain a plant or facility in 12 Florida? 13 A Yes. ~ 14 Qi And where was that? 15 A Pensacola, Florida. 16 y. And did any health -- any type of animal health problems 17 result at or near or about that factory relating to 18 PCB's? 19 A I'm not aware of any animal problem. 20 Qi Well, if I -- I don't know because of my definition - 21 my nomenclature 1 put fish also into that category? 22 A There was an incident that occurred, yes, and some of 23 the *- as 1 remember shrimp were alleged to have been 24 affected by the presence of PCB's, yes. 25 Q.______And what type of effect was there upon the shimp?__________ 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B706 (3171 893 4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (SI7I 792-4712 PAUL S 'S 7 7___ WATER PCB-SD0000037611 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.____________________ 1 A There was no dot^ctable otfect on the shrimp in the > estuary in Pensacola but the qovernment research labora 3 tory in conducting tests later determined that young 4 shrimp were sensitive to the presence of PCB's. 5 Qi In fact this government survey that you're referring to 6 did determine that not only were the shrimp sensitive to a/* PCB but that it was pretty toxic? It was fatal to a 8 number of them? A high percentage? 9A Depending on the age of the shrimp, yes. What they 10 call juvenile shrimp were -- it killed them at some 11 low level which I have forgotten. 12 iji And was this 1254 that was involved? 13 A No. ^ 14 Q. 15 At the plant were this incident occurred, how did this exposure, the accidental -- or this exposure occur? 16 From heat transformers? 17 A No. This was a leak from an air compressor which used 18 as a lubricant fluid, a mixture which contained one of 19 Monsanto's Aroclors. 20 Q And do you know what Aroclor that was? >1 A *>1--> As best I remember it was either Aroclor 1242, or Aroclor 1248. 23 Q. Was there, to your knowledae, any sampling in -- or let 24 me go back. - 25 What year did that occur? 300 PHoeNix. a log BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48704 (SI 7) 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517) 792-4712 PAGE . 5578 WATER PCB-SD0000037612 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS __________________________________________________ '_____________________ INC.___________________ 1 a. l y fa 9. > Ui Okay. Was this particular event discussed at the -- 3 you testified that you had participated, correct me if 4 I'm wrong, I thought you had testified you participated 5 in a interagency and HEW interagency meeting on poly 6 chlorinated biphenyls. Did you? 7 A. At whattime? 8 Ql 1971? 9 A Yes. The North Carolina meeting, I think you're refer 10 ring to. Or are you talking about the interagency 11 task force group in Washington? 12 u I'm just trying to find that. 13 August 5th, 1971. If that's of any assistance. 14 Assuming that's it, Mr. Papageorgu, discussed at that 15 interagency task force, or the one you attended, would 16 be the effects of PCB's among other things? 17 A Yes. 18 ft Effects upon- theenvironment? Effects upon animal 19 life? And including within that birds and fish, true? 20 A True. When we knew of these things, yes. 21 Ql Okay. And effects, or any knowledge, or information 22 that was possessed as to human effects, is that correct? 23 A That is correct. 24 Q, Now, there was knowledge at Monsanto going back prior to 25 1970, the fact of an Aroclor leaking into -- what is the 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY, MICHIGAN 48706 (3171893-4321 5226 STATE ST - \GINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15171792 4712 PAGE --------- 5579 WATER PCB-SD0000037613 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS __________________________________________________________________________ 1 name' of the bay or araa there? 2 A. Escambia Bay. 3 y. And in fact having toxic effects with shrimp? 4 A. No. That's not correct. 5 Q. Okay. . 6 A. All we had at that time was a presence of PCB' s in the 7 sediment in the Escambia Bay. These were cleaned up and 8 the bay was restored. 9 Q. What were the levels of the presence in the sediment? 10 A I don't remember them. 11 Q. Was there a report that was compiled as a result of the 12 interagency task force meeting? 13 A There was a report of a PCB interagency task force, yes. 14 Q. Are you familiar with Thomas Duke of the EPA office who 15 used to be with the EPA office in research and monitor- i 16 17 A 18 ing? Well, he is currently with the EPA. When I first met him he was with the Department of Commerce laboratory 19 just off Pensacola, Florida. 20 & And Gulf Press? 21 A Gulf Press Laboratory, yes. 22 Ut And did he conduct an experiment or any research regard 23 ing Arcolors in shrimp? 24 A He directed the study in his laboratory. He was the 25 laboratory director. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 1317)893-4321 S226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 IS I 7) 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5 5 8(3 WATER PCB-SD0000037614 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ______________________________________________________________ 1 y, 2 And can you ti_i L us just summarily what the results of that research was? 3 A. It's the summary that I previously mentioned. That was 4 determined that at low levels -- I just don't remember 5 the number, in parts per billion level in water, juvenile 6 shrimp just hatched are destroyed. They just cannot 7 tolerate it. 8 Ql Did the interagency task force also discuss the presence 9 of PCB's in animal feeds? 10 A. Yes, thev did. 11 Q. And what -- and we have already discussed Holly Farms 12 and some other incidents, but were there any other in 13 cidents besides those that we haven't covered already? 14 A. 1 don't think we have left any out. They referred to 15 all the poultry feed. Discussed the silo situation 16 reported at the time. These are all in that report. 17 Summarized quite well. 18 Qi The silo situation was discussed? You're stating that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Qi When was this conference?Was this what we're referring 21 to as the Quail Roost conference? 22 A. No. This was a different group. However, individuals 23 involved attended both sessions. 24 Qt I see. When we refer to these task force meetings, 25 these -- I don't know what else to call them, you talked 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 46706 (517)893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 ISI7) 792-4712 PAGE 5 5 Q j___ WATER PCB-SD0000037615 THIRTY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________INC.____________________ 1 about ouo that u-couLed in 1975 in Chicago that you 2 attended -- ' 3 A. Yes. 4 ft -- what would you call that? A symposium? A seminar? 5 A. That was a PCB symposium sponsored by the USEPA. 6 ft Okay. And those were attended by a number of people, 7 weren't they? 8 A. Yes. 9 ft And you would havebeen one among many inattendance . 10 A. That's right. 11 ft Mr. Papageorge, if 1 may, when we leftoff we were 12 talking, I think, about letters in 1970 and we had 13 already gone over Dr. Tucker's memorandum. I'd like 14 to gp ahead, now, and go to this particular point in time 15 when I was talking to, November of 1970. 16 In November of 1970 you paid a visit to two farms 17 in Ohio? 18 A. Thatis correct. 19 ft What was the purpose of the trip? 20 A. My intent and hope was that I would get an opportunity 21 to talk to the two farmers and become more knowledgeable 22 regarding ilos, silage, cattle, silo coatings and the 23 fact that their milk was found to contain PCB's and I 24 was quite inteiested in just becoming more familiar with 25 this new situation. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 (5171893-4321 5228 STATE ST. SAGINAW MICHIGAN 48603 (5(7)792 47 12 PAGE 5 5 8 2 WATER PCB-SD0000037616 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS - " INC. | 1 y. Okay. And yi>u wi.nL U, Lii_- ijcl.v/aizwaidufa and Humphrey s ? 2 A. That is correct. I 3 Q. And you went a day apart? You went to one place on one 4 day and one on the other day? 5 A That is correct. 6 Q. And both of these places, theSchwarzwalders and 7 Humphreys, aren't too far from Massillon, Ohio, are they? 8 A That is correct. 9 Q. You said in yourdeposition you flew intoCleveland and 10 then drove down to this area? 11 A All right. That's as close as my memory -- it's either 12 Cleveland or Akron. One of those two cities. 13 Q. And do you recall the Schwarzwalders being located, 14 their farm, about, I don't know, 20, 25 miles southeast 15 of Massillon? In that general area? Southwest. I'm 16 sorry. 17 A I'd have to look at a map. I don't recall the relative 18 locations of the fauns to Massillon. 19 Qi And the Humphreys being about 30 miles east, due east 20 of Massillon? 21 A Could be. I don't remember. 22 & Didyou have to drive through Massillon to get to the 23 Humphreys, or get to the Schwarzwalders? That's right 24 on the interstate, isn't it? 25 A I'm trying to recall. I think what I did, I went into 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B706 15171893-4321 SJJo STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4S603 IS I 71 792-47 1 2 haGE 5 5 3 1___ WATER PCB-SD0000037617 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________ ____________________________________________ __________________________________ INC 1 Columbus, Ohio uud visited with Dr. Hill and then wont 2 to the one farm one day, back through Columbus, and 3 the next farm the next day. I believe that was the 4 pattern. 5 ft 6 You never stopped at Massillon while you were there to see Mr. Egan? 7 A. No. 8 ft Mr. Papageorge, already introduced into evidence have 9 been your memorandum of your visits to the Schwarzwulder 10 farm. I think they're Exhibits No. 153B and E, and I'd 11 like to go over those with you. 12 Since you visited the Schwarzwalder farm first, do 13 you recognize this and have you had an opportunity to 14 review it prior to today? 15 A. Yes. - 16 ft You visited, then, on November 17, 1970 the Schwarzwalder 17 farm and they had registered -- they had a dairy farm and 18 registered Holstein cattle? 19 A. That is correct. 20 ft The first paragraph you make reference to the fact that 21 -- this is where you made reference in direct testimony 22 to the fact it is confidential and you said why you put 23 confidential on there? 24 A. Yes. 25 ft The first paragraph, there was an extension in 1967. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 411700 <9171 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517) 792-4712 WATER PCB-SD0000037618 TRINITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.__________________ 1 . lie didn't km w tlm oLd silo coating bat the interior 2 surfaces appear to be bare. 3 The second paragraph, Mr. Papageorge, you said there 4 that the Cumar coating -- I would assume you were aware 5 at the time of Cumar by name, is that correct? 6 A. That's correct. 7 ft -- was applied to the block surfaces by Michigan Silo 8 Company? 9 A. Correct. -- 10 ft You were aware of Michigan Silo Company put it on? 11 A. That is right. 12 Q, And then you go into as to the preparation of the 13 surface. 14 And then paragraph three is to the filling of the 15 silo. 16 Paragraph four, what the material was that was put in 17 the silo. 18 Paragraph five mentions that the silo is an open 19 type, which is filled from the top. Docs that mean it 20 doesn't have a roof on it? 21 A That is correct. 22 ft And there's a rotating conveyor and you go into the 23 method of the silage removal. Also, how it rides the 24 sidewall, semi-pneumatic tires, gear box, and how they 25 change the oil in that. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG BAT CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 15171693-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 IS I 71 792-47 I 2 PACieJ15_B5_____ WATER PCB-SD0000037619 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. I in paragraph six, Mr. Papuguuryu, we yet into the 2 fact of the materials that were on the farm. Mr. 3 Schwarzwalder informed you that he believed that the 4 coating was probably intact for at least the first year 5 in service. 6 A. That's what he told me. 7 ft 8 And he was informed in the spring of 1969 that DDT was barely detectable in quantities found in his milk. 9 Since the quantities were small and because he doubted 10 strongly that DDT was present, no action was taken. 11 Shortly after this incident the cattle were put on 12 pasture and the presence of DDT was not detected. 13 Did you ascertain how much or _what part of the year 14 he pastured his cattle? 15 A. He said the summer months. 16 ft Did you assume that when the cattle were being pastured 17 they were not eating out of the silo? 18 A. I assumed that, yes. 19 ft 20 21 Going to Page 2 of this exhibit, and then you continue on the same paragraph, number six, Mr. Papageorge, and say, "The silage which was later found to be contaminated M 22 -- that would be contaminated pursuant to Mr. Kelly's 23 letter? The usage of that word contaminated? 24 A. Yes. 25 ft -- "was stored in the silo in October, 1969. DDT was 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 18171893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 171792-47 12 PAGE 55 86 WATER PCB-SD0000037620 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC 1 detected in nud-l'ebr Uwii y, 1970. This ' DD'i" was finally 2 identified as PCB and the source was traced to the silage 3 by mid-March. At this time the cattle were quickly 4 converted to purchased hay." 5 Paragraph number seven you said, "The PCB content of 6 the milk was determined at .3, .4 ppm. One cow produced 7 milk as high as 1.4 ppm." 8 A. 9 Ql That's what i was told. Did you receive any records or any material from the 10 Ohio Department of Agriculture? 11 A He did not show me any of that. 12 Ql He said during the period January, February, March, which 13 Mr. Schwarzwalder refers to as the high PCB period, he 14 claims he lost 20 newborn calves two to three days old 15 valued at.$100 each. He also claims that he had 16 unusually high incidence of false pregnancies. 17 Didn't that give you some concern, Mr. Papageorge, 18 about some animal health effects at that particular 19 time? 20 A It was a thought that I had to take into consideration, 21 22 Q. yes. And in fact in this particular case I'm sure your review 23 of this case there's likewise been claims by Roger 24 Haley for loss of newborn calves, is that correct? 25 A That's my understanding. 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B706 (3171893-432! 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I 71 792 47 12 oa-.e 55 87_________ ~ WATER PCB-SD0000037621 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS INC ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------j 1 ft And there was in Mr. Schwarzwaldur's references, or 2 statements to you that he claimed that he has some 3 incidence of false pregnancies? 4 A. Correct. That's what he informed me. 5 ft And does that lead you to believe that Mr. Schwarzwalder 6 was experiencing some economic loss for the death of 7 those newborn calves valued at a hundred dollars each? 8 A. That's a natural conclusion, yes. 9 ft " And if his cattle don't properly breed he's going to lost; 10 the value of the young stock? 11 A. That's an appropriate conclusion, yes. 12 ft Mr. Papageorge, you go on to state in paragraph number 13 nine that since March, the cows are producing normally. 14 The milk is acceptable but I could not find out the 15 current PGB content. 16 Correct? 17 A. That is right. 18 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, I believe 19 Counsel misread that. He read it that -- of course, 20 the record would only reflect what Counsel has said, 21 not what is on the exhibit. rt says the cows are re 22 producing . 23 THE COURT: Pardon me? 24 MR. JUNGERHELD: I think he said the cows are 25 producing normally and the word on the exhibit is 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48700 IS 17) 893-4321 52.26 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 17) 792-47 I 2 PAGE ___ 5 5 8 8 WATER PCB-SD0000037622 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS _______________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________ INC. I reproduciny normally. 2 THE COURT: The correction is noted. 3 MR. WOODWORTH: Fine. 4 ft Paragraph ten, Mr. Papageorge, says that the operation 5 appears to be back to normal with all silage fed to the 6 herd stored in a new silo. 7 To your understanding did Mr. Schwarzwalder have to 8 build a new silo to put silage into? 9 A. He had a new silo on his farm when I visited, yes. 10 a Do you know whether he had to build that as a silo re 11 12 A. placement for the other one? No, I do not know why he built it. 13 ft Do you know how long his milk was embargoed? For what 14 period of time? 15 A. I used to know. Several months, but I don't know how 16 many. 17 ft Okay. Four months sound accurate? Do you dispute 18 that? 19 A. I was going to say three or four months. 20 ft We go on in that paragraph ten to say that Mr. 21 Schwarzwalder claims his herd's reputation has suffered. 22 He has registered Holstein, you said, in the first 23 paragraph, is that correct? 24 A. That is correct. 25 ft He gave us an example of his recent experience at a 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 40700 (SI7I 093-4321 5220 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 40603 15171792 4712 PAGE S 5 ft Q__ WATER PCB-SD0000037623 . TRI-ClTY COURT REPORTERS ___________ __________________________________________________________________________________________________________INC 1 registered Cat tlu aucliun. Ho was able to soli a first > generation cow for $1200 and a second generation cow for 3 $1400 but could only get $500 for a heifer representing 4 the third generation. 5 6 7 8 A. 9 10 Ql 11 A. 12 ft 13 And did you understand that to be as a result of the contamination on his farm that his herd suffered? Damage to reputation? I understood Mr. Schwarzwalder attributed to the con tamination. Did you dispute that? I have no basis for accepting or disputing. You have no basis to understand whatsoever why he would get $500 for a third exoneration cow as opposed to 14 1200 and 1400 for -- 15 MR. JUNGERHELD: Just a minute. Your Honor. 16 I'm going to have to object. I think perhaps -- this, 17 of course, is all hearsay as to this witness. Perhaps 18 the Jury should be reminded this is not for the truth 19 of the matter asserted but goes to Mr. Papageorge's 20' background and impressions. 21 THE COURT: Is this an objection, Mr. 22 Jungerheld? 23 MR. JUNGERHELD: Yes, it is. 24 THE COURT: Why don't you state the objec 25 tion? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (SI71 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (SI7I 792-4712 PAGE 5 5 9 fi WATER PCB-SD0000037624 TRl-ClTY COURT REPORTERS _________________________________________________________ 1 HR. JliNGLUilEI.D: lie is asking this witness 2 now to speculate as to these numbers here for the costs 3 of these animals, as I understand it, and I don't think 4 this witness has any foundation to do that. \ 5 THE COURT: Well, he can answer the question 6 if he does or he doesn't. I think he answered the ques 7 tion he does not so go ahead. 8& Paragraph eleven said that you inspected the old silo. 9 That's the one that we're referring to with the PCB in 10 it? 11 A. That's the one that I was told had the PCB in it. 12 a That the coating on the top unused 10 feet was intact. 13 The remaining surface had very little evidence of any 14 remaining coating. 15 What color -- how could you characterize what that 16 coating looked like at the top 10 feet? 17 A. It was the color of the brown wall behind us. 18 fli And you took some samples, many sized samples of the sur 19 face and a piece of the concrete framing, one of the 20 side openings were taken for analysis. 21 Did you take that? 22 A. Yes. 23 <J. What did you put the samples into? 24 A. I* had with me laboratory sample bottles. 25 y. So when you went to the farm you went with the intention 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70B 1517)093-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 40603 (5 17)792-47 12 PAGE 55Q 1 WATER PCB-SD0000037625 1 2 A. 3 Ql 4 5 A. 6 Qi 7 A. 8 Qi 9 10 11 12 A 13 Qi 14 15 1(1 A 17 Qi 18 A 19 20 Qi 21 22 23 A 24 Q. 25 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. of taking samples, is that correct? I hoped to have an opportunity to take samples, yes. You don't typically travel with sample bottles with you? No, I don't. You didn't come up here with sample bottles? Not this time. And you go on to state that you also took samples -- this is within paragraph twelve, of the old silane near the wall and at the center were taken for analysis, correct? That is correct. And then you asked in paragraph thirteen for samples of current milk production several times. How long were you there? Four to six hours. A goodpart of the day. And how many times did theymilk while you were there? I was never taken near the milking operation. I just didn't sec any. Okay. That they simply told you, or you understood from Mr. Schwarzwalder each time you were told the truck had just emptied the system and none was available? That's what 1 was told. Then you went on, Mr. Papageorge, within paragraph fourteen and you state you took another sample from the 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 13171893-4321 5326 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 17)792-47 12 PAuE ___ ____________ WATER PCB-SD0000037626 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 silage from u iiuw silo and why did you take one from the 2 new silo? 3 A. Well, I wanted to make certain that I had something 4 that I could compare between new and old and to make 5 certain that the PCB's weren't found throughout his 6 operation. 7 Q, You took it from the conveyor located at the bottom of 8 the silo, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Qt You didn't climb upon that new silo and go up on the 11 top and take any out, or go into one of the silo doors? 12 A. This was one of those new blue silos. It didn't seem 13 like there was a good way to get into it. 14 Qi Probably glass lined and sealed then? 15 A. Yes. 16 Qt Paragraph fifteen you state that you attempted to dis 17 cuss withMr. Schwarzwalder possible ways in which he 18 felt he and others like him could be helped, is that 19 right? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Ql Mr. Schwarzwalder expressed to you he had suffered 22 economic damages, is that right? 23 A. Well, he didn't use those words. He implied about his 24 loss of animals and -- 25 fit Did he express to you the best way to help him would be 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1917)693-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 17)792-47 12 PAGE S S <4 1 WATER PCB-SD0000037627 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________ .__________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1. to pay him Lor his losses? 2 A. That never came up. 3 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, may we approach 4 the bench for just a moment? 5 (Whereupon a discussion was held at the 6 Judge's bench.) 7 THE COURT: Members of the Jury, retire to 8 the Jury Room. 9 (Whereupon legal argument ensued out of the 10 presence of the Jury.) 11 (Whereupon the Jury was returned to the 12 Courtroom.) 13 THE COURT: Be seated please. 14 Go ahead. 13 MR. WOODWORTH: Thank you, Your Honor, 16 ft 17 Mr. Papageorge, still referring to the Schwarzwalder matter, do you know what was done with his silage? 18 A. No, 1 don't. 19 ft The next day you visited the Humphrey farm, correct? 20 A. That is correct. 21 ft You told us a little bit about that on your direct 22 examination, and you also wrote a memorandum as a result 23 of that visit? 24 A. That is correct. 25 ft Mr. Papageorge, directing your attention to this one 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY* CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 13171893-4321 F226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 171792-47 12 PAGE 5 5 9 4 WATER PCB-SD0000037628 tri city COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 that is dated November 20, but in the introduction you 2 state that your visit was 18th, correct? 3 A. That is correct. 4 ft The day after theSchwarzwalder visit? 5 Paragraph one refers to the fact that there was PCB 6 content, and I would assume that it was in the milk, is 7 that right? 8 A. That is correct. 9 ft And we refer to levels there, and there's a herd involved 10 that the -- at the Humphrey's, of about 60 that are pro 11 ducing milk free of PCB, is that correct? 12 I'm sorry. I misread that. 13 There are PCB levels have been reported from .26 14 parts per million to over one part per million from 15 that day to the present. Twentv-ono cows of a herd of 18 about 60 are producing milk free of PCB; however, 16 of 17 these have never been fed silage. 18 That's what it says? 19 A. Yes. 20 ft So there's 39 then that were producing milk with PCB 21 in it of the producing herd, is that correct? 22 A. That's right. 23 ft The next paragraph, basically the lust sentence, states. 24 "Silacje has not been fed to the herd since March, 1970"? 25 A. That's right. 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48700 IS I 7) 893-4321 S-'26 STATE ST SAGINAW MICHIGAN 48603 IS 17) 792 47 I 2 MAi.b _55 9 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037629 1 Ql 2 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _______________________________________________________________________________ And it says in paragraph three that after testing the water, hay and forage from pastures in which the cattle 3 graze, the source of PCB was isolated to the silage from 4 two concrete block silos which were coated about three 5 years-- it says age., I would imagine it means ago, 8 with Michigan Silos "Cumar" coating. 7 A. That's what it savs. 8 Ql Why would you put the word Cumar in quotation marks? 9 A. That represents a quote from someone else using that 10 expression, which didn't fit with my understanding, 11 my knowledge, of the trademark Cumar. 12 Ql So when vou used Cumar within quotation marks you're 13 not talking about the Barrett or Allied Chemical Cumar 14 tradename, is that fair to say? 15 A. Well, in this case, no. 16 Qi Talking about the formulation we have been talking about 17 in this trial, or something represented to be a formula 18 tion something like that? 19 A. In that formulation, yes. 20 Ql Then you also referred to how the coutinq was applied? 21 A. Yes. 22 Ql There was nospecial curing, and the silos weren't filled 23 until after about six weeks? 24 A. Correct. 25 Qi Now, paragraph four, Mr.Pupageorge, states thatboth 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 (917)893-4321 5236 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 17)792-47)2 PAGE ____5.59 6___ WATER PCB-SD0000037630 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 silos arc -- the silos are both of open top construc `> tion, and that would be they don't have roofs on 3 them? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Ql There's no -- one is covered with a rain shield. There's 6 no mechanical devices in the silos. And then you go on 7 to discuss the methodology of unloading and the type of 8 silage that were in the silos? 9 A Correct. 10 Qi Incidentally, would you go back to the beginning of this? 11 This is copied to J. Mason. Who is J. Mason? 12 A Mr. Mason was the assistant general manager under whom 13 the plasti -- I'm sorry, the PCB^ the Aroclor business 14 reported. IS Qi And Mr. Bergen, or Bergen -- 16 A Mr. Bergen was the director of the business group which 17 sold Aroclors. 18 Qi And R.E. Kellv would be Dr. Kelly who's testified? 19 A That's correct. 20 Qi And E. Wheeler would be Elmer Wheeler who we've referred 21 to as being in the Medical Department? 22 A That is correct. 23 Qi And P. Park would be -- 24 A Environmental counsel. Attorney. 25 Q. Attorney? Okay. 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 46706 15171893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 (517)792 4712 PAGE 5 5 9 7 WATER PCB-SD0000037631 ___ __________________ _INC TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS 1 Goiny un Lo the second page of this memorandum, Mr. 2 Papageorge, you state in paragraph five apparently there 3 were no unusual reproduction problems? 4 A. That's correct. 5 ft 6 A. Is that significant to you for you to point that out? Yes. They differed from my understanding of the pre 7 vious day's visit. 8 ft Okay. And was it your understanding that PCB's could in 9 10 A. fact cause reproduction problems? I -- at that point in time I did not know enough to make 11 a judgment. 12 ft Nevertheless you considered it significant enough that 13 there were no PCB problems or reproduction problems to 14 point that out in its own separate paragraph within your 15 memorandum? 16 A. Because it differed from the Schwarzwalder information. 17 ft And the Humphreys -- how much of the year did they 18 pasture their cattle? Do you know? 19 A 20 ft 21 A T)>* ft I do not know. Did you discuss that withthem? I don't remember discussing that, no. And apparently in paragraph six you refer to the 23 Humphreys beiny very bitter about their losses, loss of 24 income in fact? 25 A Yes. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1517)693-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW MICHIGAN 46603 (517)792-4712 PAGE 5 59 8 WATER PCB-SD0000037632 . 1y 2 : A. 4y 5 6 7 A. 8 Q, 9 10 11 12 1.1 A. 14 y 15 16 17 18 A. 19 y 20 21 A. 22 y 23 24 25 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. And so you wore made aware in this particular instance i that there was economic damage to the Humphreys? That is right. And the rest of the paragraph refers to Dr. Hill and Mr. Smuck, and generally complications that they had and problems with the state, is that correct? That's correct. And in paragraph seven, the end of the first paragraph it was indicated by the Humphreys and Mr. Smuck that they wouldn't use an old silo regardless of the treatment it might be given. And do you know why they stated that? The first sentence of oaragraph seven? No, I don't. Paragraph eight you asked here to take some samples to help study the total problem and they offered to provide you samples only if you shared the analytical results with them? That is correct. And you already had taken samples from the Schwarzwaidcr farm the previous day, is that correct? That's riqht. And you go on to say here that this posed a question we had not resolved for other similar requests. Now, who are you referring to? We had not resolved 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 17) 893-4321 S226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I 7) 792 47 I 2 page __5-S99____ WATER PCB-SD0000037633 1 A. 2 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _________________________________________________________________ I'm r o m r r i ng to the people at the top of the first page of the memorandum. 3 Cl Okay. But under the circumstances you decided to share 4 the data with them, is that right? 5 A. That is correct. 6 Cl Mr. Papageorge, isn't it correct that you never did share 7 the data with them? 8 A. That's not true. 9 Q. You're saying you did send thedata to them? The test 10 results? 11 A. Let me think. 12 Well, I thought we did but could well be that we 13 didn't. It's fuzzy at the moment. 14 fit And the Humphreys inparagraph tenare installing a 15 new glass-coated A.O. Smith Silo which will be placed 16 in service within a week? 17 A That is correct. 18 Qt And may we understand that, or did you understand that 19 to be a replacement silo for one of those contaminated 20 silos? 21 A Yes. 22 Ci Do you have any idea of the cost ofthat particular 23 silo? 24 A No, I didn't. 25 Ci Mr. Papageorge, with the samples fromthe SchwarzwaIdor 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 40706 19171893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15171792-4712 PAGE ____5 fi 0 0 WATER PCB-SD0000037634 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 2 A. farm what did you do with those? I uave them to Dr. Tucker in our analytical laboratory. 3 Qi And did ho test them? 4 A Yes. 5 Ql And did you supply Mr. Schwarzwalder with the results 6 of the tests? 7 A I don't think so. 8 Qi And with the Humphreys' samples, what did you do with 9 those? 10 A They were sent to Dr. Tucker's laboratory. 11 Qi And to the best of your recollection, Mr. Papageorge, 12 did you in fact share the results of those tests with 13 the Humphreys? . 14 A As 1 said earlier I'm at the moment confused. I thought 15 I shared it with them but it could well be that I didn't. 16 Qi Do you possess as of this time those test results? 17 A Personally, no. 18 Qi Does Monsanto? 19 A I do not know. 20 Qi What types of claims did Humphreys make as a result of 21 the PCB's being in their silos? 22 1 would assume loss of income for loss of produc 23 tion of milk? 24 A 1 was never informed of that. The claims. 25 Qi You were the environmental manager for Monsanto? 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 7) 893-432 I S11J6 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I 71 792 47 I 2 HAUL 5 6 01___ WATER PCB-SD0000037635 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 A. That is correct. o U. Are you informed whether or not they did in fact make 3 claims for their losses? 4 A. I was aware they had made claims but I was never informed, 5 of the details. The particulars. 6 Q. That was not of your concern? 7 A. That is correct. 3 Q. Okay. Who's concern within Monsanto would that have 9 been? 10 A. It's a legal matter. 11 Ql So you were not concerned whether or not the Humphreys 12 or the Schwarzwalders made claim for any health effects? 13 Any animal -- 14 A. That's a different question, sir. 15 Q. That's what I'm addressing. I'm talking, when I say lti claims, the whole area. 17 A. I'm not aware of any claims made by the Humphreys re 18 garding animal or human health effects. 19 Ul And the Schwarzwalders? 20 A. Schwarzwalders, I'm only aware of what Mr. Schwarzwalder 21 told me, and I reflected that in the memorandum we 22 showed previously. `23 fit To your knowledge did these families consume their own 24 products off tlie farms? Meat and milk? 25 A. I don't think wo got into that discussion at all. I 300 PHOENIX. BLDG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 7) 893-432 1 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (3 17) 792-47 I 2 PGc 56Q2 __ WATER PCB-SD0000037636 . ___________ _____INC. 1. don't remember that. TRl CITY COURT REPORTERS 2 C. At that particular time when you were visiting these 3 farms were you under the impression that if people were 4 consuming those goods they would in fact be consuming 5 PCB's ? 6 A. Well, that's the straightforward conclusion, yes. If 7 they are, they are. 8 ft Did you say anything to those people, the Humphreys, or 9 the Schwarzwalders, that in fact if they were going to 10 be consuming their meat, or any dairy products, they 11 would be consuming the PCB's that were in them? 12 A. No, I didn't say that. 13 ft Did you ever monitor either one of those families or 14 those farms for any subsequent economic problems, or 15 health problems, either human or animal? 16 A. No. 17 ft Mr. Papageorge, can you tell me who a person is by the 18 name of J.R. Orteose? 19 A. Yes, I can. 20 ft And who is he? 21 A. He is an attorney that at one time was employed by Monsanto Company. 23 ft And did you ever work with him? 24 A. Yes. 25 ft And on what types of cases? Or what types -- not. 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 40700 (017) 093-4321 5230 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 40003 15171792-47 12 I'AGE ____*5 fi 0 3___ WATER PCB-SD0000037637 TRICITY COURT __________________ ___________________ __________________________________________________________________________ REPORTERS INC. 1 necessarily cases. What matters did. you work with him 2 on? 3 A. Litigation matters. 4 Q. Okay. Did any of thoseconcern PCB's? 5 A. Some.of them, yes. 6 Ql Did you ever see answers tointerrogatories that he fiiec 7 in this particular case? 8 A. It's been some time ago but as I remember I -- I have 9 seen some answers. But I don't claim to -- I don't 10 know if I saw them -- all answers. 11 Qi 12 The file would reflect, Mr. Papageorge, that in fact he answered on his signature and upon his oath on 13 September 19, 1979 plaintiff's interrogatories which 14 I find in this matter on October 5th, 1978 . 15 To your knowledge -- to the best of your knowledge 16 Mr. Orteese was authorized to in fact sign those inter 17 rogatories? 18 A. Yes. 19 Qt 20 And when he signed those interrogatories to the best of your knowledge was he answering as a representative of 21 Monsanto? 22 A. Yes. 23 Qt Mr. Papageorge, I'll just read it to you. 24 Question No. 52 -- 25 MR. JUNGERHELD: Just a moment. Your Honor. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70B (3171 803*4321 226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792-47)2 PAGE 56Q4 WATER PCB-SD0000037638 _______ __ INC. TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS 1 Now, I'm going to object to this procedure. I would 2 assume what Counsel is attempting to do, without knowing 3 absolutely, of course, but I assume what he's going to 4 attempt to do is attempt to impeach Mr. Qrteese through 5 Mr. Papageorge. 6 THE COURT: Here, let's wait until he does 7 that, then you can object. I don't think that's been 8 done yet. 9 10 Ql 11 12 So go ahead. Mr. Papageorge, if you would lift that page there and look at Question No. 53. Down at the bottom of the next pace. 13 Mr. Papageorge, if you will look along with me, this 14 questions states, "State whether your company received 15 subsequent to 1965 any complaints, correspondence, or 16 other communication concerning the application for use 17 of Aroclor 1254 and/or Cumar, and whether any injuries 18 or illnesses occurred therefrom." 19 20 A. 21 Qi 22 Correct? That's what it reads. Okay. And if you will turn the page, Mr. Papageorge, and look at the answer and just read it to yourself 23 first. 24 Would you consider that answer accurate? 25 MR. JUNGERHELD: Well, 1 would still object tc 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (3171 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 1317) 792-47 12 PAGE ____ 5 Q5_ WATER PCB-SD0000037639 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 the procedure. Your Honor. Whether or not it is accurate 2 would be something that I would think would be addressed 3 to Mr. Orteese. Again, it would be an effort, I suppose, 4 to impeach Mr. Orteese through Mr. Papageorge which I 5 don't think is proper procedure. 6 THE COURT: Well, these are answers that were 7 given according to his testimony by Mr. Orteese on be 8 half of the Defendant Monsanto. So that was Monsanto. 9 That was Monsanto speaking. He's attempting to impeach 10 Monsanto by asking this witness, who is a representative 11 by his testimony in this trial of Monsanto, so I'll 12 allow it. 13 Ql And is that answer accurate in your opinion? 14 A. To the best of my knowledge it is accurate. 15 Q, Okay. And we have four claims you mentioned with an 16 answer to the No. 53, is that correct? 17 A. That's what 1 read here, yes. 18 ft Okay. And in fact there were more than four claims 19 filed subsequent to 1965 for injuries weren't there? 20 MR. JUNGERHELD: I'm sorry. Are we talking 21 about 55 or 53? 22 MR. WOODWORTH: Did I say '55? I meant '6 5 23 THE COURT: '65 24 MR. JUNGERHELD: '65? All right 25 THE COURT: What does the question say? 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (517) 093-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517) 792-4712 page _ 5 6 Q 6 WATER PCB-SD0000037640 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 Mk. WOODWORTH: The question number is 53. 2 THE COURT: What is the question again? The 3 interrogatory? 4 MR. WOODWORTH: The question is state whether 5 your company received, subsequent to 1965, any complaints, 6 correspondence, or other communication concerning the 7 application or use of Aroclor 1254 and/or Cumar and 8 whether any injuries or illnesses occurred therefrom. 9 THE COURT: After 1965? 10 MR. WOODWORTH: Yes. 11 THE COURT: To the date of the interrogator iesi p 12 MR. WOODWORTH: Yes. 13 A I'm not aware of any personal injury or illnesses that 14 could be added to the list in this interrogatory response. 15 y Mr. Papageorge, that's rather interesting. Because the 16 answer says personal injury, but the question doesn't 17 say a single thing about personal injury, does it? 18 A Well, sir, when you use the word injuries and illnesses 19 I don't associate that with test animals, birds. It's 20 an automatic thought in my mind that it deals with 21 human beings. 22 Ql Mr. Papageorge, I'm going to show you Black's Law 23 Dictionary, the revised 4th edition, published by 24 , West Company, Page. 924, definition of the word "injury". 25 Would you read the first sentence to yourself please? 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (317) 893-4321 5226 STATfc ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (3 17)792-47 12 PAGE 5-60-2-- WATER PCB-SD0000037641 tri-city court REPORTERS _________________________________________________INC. 1 iViK. DAVIDSON: Your Honor, ace wo expecting 2 him to answer on legal materials? This is a legal 3 dictionary. I don't know if there's a proper foundation 4 that he knows the legal description of what terms or 5 claims is. I don't think a proper foundation has 6 been supplied. 7 MR. WOODWORTH: He already knows what Mr. 8 Orteese said in the interrogatories. I'm asking this as 9 to- what the word injury entails. 10 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, he is not giving 11 a dictionary -- or a definition out of Black's Law 12 Dictionary. I don't know that he knew any definition 13 out of Black's Law Dictionary, or is dispositive of 14 the issue. The interrogatory doesn't say as defined in 15 Black's Law Dictionary it asks about injuries, or ill 16 nesses. He can answer to what he understood that 17 means. I object to this kind of procedure. I think 18 we are wandering once again far afield. 19 THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection. Ho 20 hasn't been qualified as an expert in the field of legal 21 terminology, or law for that matter. Perhaps the law 22 dictionary is not relevant to that inquiry. So I'll 23 sustain the objection. 24 Q. When you look at this question when it says injury or 25 illness, Mr. Papageorge, then you interpret the word 300 PHOENIX. BU3G. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (317)893-4321 S226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 17)792-4712 PAGE 5608 WATER PCB-SD0000037642 tri-city COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC______________ 1 2 A. injury just to moan to a human being, is that correct? That is correct. 3 ft And that would exclude any type of injury to animals? 4 A. That is correct. 5 ft And any type of injury to property? 6 A That is correct. 7 ft And any type of injury to reputation? 8 A Right. 9 ft Okay. 10 A I just don't think that way with that word. 11 ft Apparently Mr. orteese didn't think that way either, 12 would you agree? 13 A I can't speak for Mr.Orteese. 14 ft Mr. Papageorge, subsequently there was, on January 11, lf> 1983, we submitted to you a notice to produce documents, 16 and this is my copy of it, but I'll just ask you to 17 look at Paragraph 5, would you please, in that notice? 18 A I have read it. 19 ft And I'm going to show you your answer to it. If you'll 20 read your answer to Paragraph 5 please. 21 A I have read it. 22 ft And now. I'll direct your attention, Mr. Papageorge, to 23 the attachment you referred to within your answer to 24 No. 5. It's longer paper. You'll have to go back this 25 way. A page before that. 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870B (5 171 893-4321 5226 STATE ST AGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS 171 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5609___ WATER PCB-SD0000037643 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 Now, if yuu will glance over to those names? 2 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, we haven't yet 3 been able to locate these documents. There have been, 4 of course, a large number of interrogatories and answers 5 to them. I wonder if we might be permitted to see that 6 before the witness testified any further about it? 7 THE COURT: Why don't you let him see it? 8 MR. WOODWORTH: Questions, answers, or both? 9 MR. JUNGERHELD: Both. We don't have either 10 of them. 11 THE COURT: Both. 12 MR. WOODWORTH: Did you already look at it? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 THE COURT: No. 5. 15 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, for the record 16 it's my recollection that the responses here were pre 17 pared during the course of Mr. Papageorge's deposition in 18 my office. This particular copy is not signed and I do 19 not recall if he signed a copy or not. So I'm not cer 20 tain what the procedure here is. But if there's a 21 signed copy I suppose we should procedure on that one. 22 THE COURT: Ask him if that's his answer. If 23 ho savs it is not we'll have to find out if it is or 24 not. 25 Q. Are these your answers to those questions? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS t 71 893-4321 S228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I 7) 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5610 WATER PCB-SD0000037644 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. I TUU COuRT: la 5 specifically. 2 gi in 5. The answer there and the attachment. :i A. Well, the answers were drafted by Counsel for my review. 4 I recall looking it over and taking their advice and 1 5 assumed that that was an accurate list. I don't have 6 all the information at my disposal to be able to provide 7 the answers personally. 8 gi May we consider that about the rest of your answers and 9 'all the answers supplied in this case? They may not 10 be complete because there's no information at your 11 12 A. fingertips? That is not a good assumption, no. K1 Q. All right. Now, which one should we consider otherwise, 14 Mr. Papageorge, in those answers? All of them, or No. 5?j 15 A 1 haven't had a chance to look at the other answers. If 16 you wish I can. 17 Q. And also the other interrogatory answers you supplied, 18 Mr. Papageorge, if they are not complete. 19 A I'm not saying they are not complete. And you're 20 assuming they aren't complete. 21 Qt Yes, I am. 22 A Well, what was your question? 23 Ql Looking at No. 5, that is what you're saying, the informaj 24 tion you gave at that time, and you believed it to be 25 accurate at the time you gave it? 300 PHOENIX. SIOG. SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 40706 (5171 693-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 171 792-47 12 PAGE .5611. WATER PCB-SD0000037645 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 A To the best uL my knowledge that is accurate, yes. 2 ft If you will look at No. 5, Mr. Papageorge, the attach 3 ment? 4 A. All right. 5 ft And if you look through there do you see any claim writtt^ 6 written down there on behalf of Steven and Mary Skolush? 7 S-k-o-l-o-s-h. 8 A. I see no such name. 9 ft 10 A. Are you aware of Mr. and Mrs. Skolosh? No. 11 ft Did you ever answer in a deposition, more precisely 12 13 A 14 ft 15 the Bethlehem Mink case? I just do not remember that name_ at all. Okay. You were given interrogatories in the Bethlehem Mink case.and answered some to the best of your re 16 17 A 18 ft 19 20 21 A >o collection? To the best of my recollection, yes, sir. Looking over that list today, that was dated, I assume, January, 1983, your answers there, are there other claims that you can think of now that aren't in that list? I do not know your definition of claims. It may well be different than mine. 23 ft 24 25 Let's say if someone gets ahold of Monsanto and says I have had to pour out milk because of my contaminated silo, I consider that a claim. Did you hear anything like 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (5171 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517)792-4712 PAGE 5 fi 1 7 WATER PCB-SD0000037646 _____________________________________________ _____________________________________ 1 that? TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 2 A. Well, wo had a reference here to the Humphreys' farm, 3 y But Humphreys are referred to within that aren't they? 4 A. Yes, they are. 5y Would you look that over, Mr. Papageorge, and tell me if 6 you see any claim on behalf of Kenneth Baldwin listed 7 on that list? 8 A. I do not see the name Kenneth Baldwin. 9y Please look at the rest and see if you have a claim on 10 behalf of Loren and/or William Dillman? D-i-l-l-m-a-n. 11 A. I do not see the name -- last name Dillman. 12 y. Would vou look the list over and see if you see a claim 13 by the name of Dean Speicer? S-.p-e-i-c-e-r. 14 A. I do not see the name Speicer. 15 y Do you see a name therein Jones? 16 A. No. 17 y Do you see a name in there Barnes? 18 A. No. 19 Qi Mr. Egan testified as to claims made by Speicer and Jones. 20 Did you review the summary of his testimony wherein 21 those claims wore referred to? 22 A. 1 saw those names in the summaries. 23 y 24 25 There was also -- I think you made reference to either Dillman, or Baldwin. He had Humphrey, Baldwin, Speicer, Schwarzwaldor and Jones. 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 (SI7) 892-4321 3228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48802 1517)792-471 2 PAGE 5613_____ WATER PCB-SD0000037647 thi-city COURT REPORTERS ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 A. I recall seeing those names in the summary. 2 Q. Are you aware that those people did in fact make claims 3 against Monsanto for losses that they incurred as a re 4 sult of having PCB silos? 5A No, I'm not. 6 MR. JUNGERI1ELD: Your Honor, I'm going to 7 object to the form of that question. That's Counsel 8 testifying. That is assuming that which I don't think 9 there's testimony to support. 10 MR. WOODWORTH: I think there is testimony. 11 There's testimony of Mr. Egan that claims were made and 12 Monsanto -- apart -- there is testimony from Dr. 13 Willett's deposition as to some of these claims. There's 14 testimony primarily from Mr. Egan as to these people, anc 15 in these answers in his notes. 16 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, Mr. Egan testi 17 fied he worked for the Michigan Silo Company in 18 Massillon, Ohio, not for Monsanto. Dr. Willett's deposi 19 tion was not introduced as far as I know nor was he ask 20 ed about anything like this. Mr. Egan did not testify 21 about claims against Monsanto. Maybe he did about 22 claims against Michigan Silo. But that's a different 23 question that was asked of this witness, and a different 24 question asked of'these documents here. 25 THE COURT: Do you have a response to the 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 ISI7I 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 1517) 792-4712 PAGE 5 ]4 WATER PCB-SD0000037648 1 objection? TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. ') MR. WOODWORTH: Yes, Your Honor. 3 What I can do is -- 4 ft (By Mr. Woodworth, continuing:) if claims are made 5 against Monsanto, Mr. Papageorge, who receives them? 6 A. Would you define claims again? 7 Qi I'll define claims as saying people who may have had 8 economic or animal losses, or milk losses, or silage 9 losses, or silo losses during the earlier 1970's on 10 their farms as a result of having PCB's in their silos. 11 Now, these people would have had losses and if they 12 contacted Monsanto with a claim, one man or another, 13 to whose attention would that be directed? 14 A. It could go either to an attorney, or it could come to 15 my office, or it could go to Dr. Kelly's office, or it 16 could even go to the Marketing Department's offices. 17 ft No one place for sure, is that correct? 18 A. That is correct. 19 ft But may we assume that it would also end up atone 20 place if there was in fact a claim for money? That 21 people wanted some money would it end up in the Legal 22 Department? 23 A. If it went that far, yes, certainly. 24 ft Okay. And if it in fact turned into litigation it would 25 end up in the Legal Department, wouldn't it? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48700 (3171 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5171 792*4712 WATER PCB-SD0000037649 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 A. Obviously, yes. 2 Qi Okay. Now, if it was in fact someone had made a claim 3 in that sense against Monsanto asking for money for 4 losses would legal necessarily inform you of it, or would 5 they take care of it themselves? 6 A. They may, or they may not inform me. And it would vary 7 from case to case. 8 Ql So you, as environmentalcontrol officer of Monsanto, 9 would not necessarily be made aware of all those claims 10 that are coming in, is that correct? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Qi Okay. So when you sithere andtestify, Mr. Papageorge, 13 about the lack of effects and the lack of claims and the 14 lack of problems out of Ohio, you don't really know 15 because you do not -- you are not cognizant about the 16 claims that were made, is that correct? 17 A I only know what I can see, hoar, feel, touch and the 18 like. 19 Qi 20 Okay. Now, if we wanted to know about all the claims that were made what would we have to do? Contact someone 21 22 23 24 25 A from legal and put them on the witness stand, or what? Is there some one person at Monsanto we could go to and say tell us about every single claim that was made in the early 1970's regarding PCB silos? I don't know that there's any one person. I suspect 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 487061917)893-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792-4712 PAGE 5616______ WATER PCB-SD0000037650 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 you may have to talk Lo several. 1 would start with 2 legal. If that's a good starting point. 3 (Jl I'm going to show you Plaintiff's Proposed Exhibit No. 4 425 and ask you if you have ever seen that before? 5 A. I don't recall this at all. 6 ft Can you identify it for the record, please? 7 MR. JUNGERHELD: Wait a minute. He does not 8 recall that. This can't be admitted, then, into evidence, 9 through this witness at least, and I would object to 10 that procedure. 11 MR. WOODWORTH: I think it's very relevant, 12 Your Honor. In fact it is a certified document and 13 it's relevant insofar as what this witness doesn't 14 know. 15 MR. JUNGERHELD: Well, I'm going to object 16 to the procedure into the statements of Counsel, Your 17 Honor. I think this witness can testify as to what he 18 knows. Ho either recognizes the name, or he does not 19 recognize the name. I object to this exhibit as being 20 irrelvant to any issues in this lawsuit and if Counsel 21 intends to pursue the matter then I would suggest that 22 we take up this issue with the Court. 23 MR. WOODWORTH: By way of response. Your 24 Honor, Mr. Pupageorge testified yesterday that everything 25 was well in hand in Ohio. 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 19171893-4321 52J6 STATE ST SAGINAW MICHIGAN 48603 (5171792-4712 PAGE 5 6 1 7______ WATER PCB-SD0000037651 tri-city COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________ INC.____________________ 1 THE COURT: Well, 1 think you have 2 adeuately covered that area and as correctly stated his 3 testimony was that he hasn't seen that document before. 4 He was totally unaware of it. So I'll sustain the ob 5 jection to its admission. 6 Qi (By Mr. Woodworth, continuing:) I may have said this, 7 but may we, just to clarify it, Mr. Papageorge, may we 8 understand, then, there could have been a number of addi 9 tional claims filed against Monsanto for a number of 10 types of losses that you may not be aware of? 11 MR. JUNGERHELD: Objection again. Asked and 12 answered. And certainly irrelevant as to a number of 13 types of losses. Of what, somebody slips on the -- 14 THE COURT: Why don't you be more precise 15 as to specifically what? As a result of what? And I 16 will allow you to ask the question. 17 MR. WOODWORTH: I'll clarify the question, 18 Your Honor. 19 Q. Talking about losses, Mr. Papageorge -- 20 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, I'm going -- 21 just a minute. I'm going to object to this procedure. 22 Now Counsel just took in an effort to prejudice the Jury, 23 he just took an exhibit, the admission of which -- 24 THE COURT: Put that away, Mr. Woodworth. 25 We're not not going to allow that to come in. 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1317)893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 17)792-4712 PAGE 5 618 WATER PCB-SD0000037652 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC 1' CiO ahead 2 MR. WOODWORTH: Okay. 3 Q. Mr. Papageorge, I'm talking about claims made by 4 farmers, first of all. Those are the class of people 5 we are talking about. Claims made as a result of having 6 PCB's within their silos. That's the route of the claim. 7 So we have the farmers as claimants, the route of the 8 claims being PCB in their silos, and the types of claims 9 being made are for economic losses as a result of those 10 PCB's being in their silos. Economic meaning loss of 11 income, loss of profit, loss of reputation, incurred 12 expenses as having to build substitute facilities. 13 Now, may we understand it, Mr- Papageorge, that you 14 in your position at Monsanto would not necessarily be 15 cognizant,of all claims made for those purposes in the 16 early 1970's? 17 A. That is correct. 18 Qi Now, may I expand it. The same group of people, the 19 same route of the problem, PCB silos, and let's take it 20 into animal health effects. Not necessarily economic, 21 but although the damages may have -- or the claims may 2*2 have been for money. The route of the claim being health 23 effects of animals as a result of PCB silos. May we 24 understand it that you would not necessarily be cognizant* 25 of all claims made against Monsanto from the 1970's for 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAT CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 13171893-4321 5. 26 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1317)792 4712 PAGE S6 1-9 .. WATER PCB-SD0000037653 TRI-C1TY COURT REPORTERS _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________INC________ 1 PCB silos? 2 A. If I understand your question correctly, and I'll try to 3 4 5 6 Ql 7 A. 8 9 10 11 12 Qi 13 14 15 16 17 A. 18 Qi 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 respond, if the claims were translated into monetary numbers, dollars of value, the chances are that I would not be informed, necessarily. Okay. If the claims were an attempt to share with me some new information and the discussion centered around the observed effects on some animal, the chances are fairly good that I would eventually hear about it. Perhaps after our Medical Department heard about it. Let's take the first of the two, Mr. Papageorge. When someone filed a claim and said they wanted some money for the loss in relation to animals, you're saying you might not necessarily hear of that claim, is that correct? That is correct. Okay. And if someone filed a claim, Mr. Papageorge, in the first two categories we already mentioned, strictly economic, and if they appended to that a claim for money for animal injury, and if they appended to that additional the third factor of any human injury, or ill health, or health effects, may we understand it that you might not necessarily hear of that if the persor was requesting money for those health effects? 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (317)893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (3171792-4712 Par.c 5 ft 2 fl WATER PCB-SD0000037654 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 A. That is cut'root. j Qi I'm going to direct your attention back to those requests 3 to produce documentation, and this is your response to 4 Item No. 5 and the attachment to the response. Correct? 5 A. 6 7 8 Ql 9 10 It appears to be a copy of something that was put together. I see no signature. No evidence that it was the final draft. Okay. There appears a place, although we don't have it on there, on Page 4 there's a place for you to sign, and in fact a notary clause? 11 A. Yes. 12 Qi In fact it has the name of the notary down there but it 13 isn't signed. An Ann Gorman of Saginaw? 14 A Yes. 15 Q. Do you know who Ann Gorman is? 16 A Yes. I think I met the lady, yes. 17 Ql Where? 18 A In Mr. Jungerheld's office. 19 Qi Okay. And in answer to Question No. 5 you refer us to 20 an attachment. I don't know if those specific words -- 21 yes. A list is attached. 22 A Yes, it says so. 23 Qi 24 Now, going to that list there are a number of claims listed, correct? 25 A There are names and address listed. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870B (3171693-4321 33^6 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792 4712 PAGE 56 21 WATER PCB-SD0000037655 1 Q2 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. Okay. Now, what there is, there is two -- I'd like to direct your attention to this one, Bloomfield Silo, 3 on December 1970. Can you tell us of what that claim 4 amounted to? 5 A. 6 Q. 7 I know nothing about it. Okay. And where does it have an address of Bloomfield Silo? 8 A. It has Bloomfield, Indiana, zip code, 47424. 9& Mr. Papagcorgo, would you agree there was a certain risk 10 involved in 1970 with having -- one having their silo 11 coated with Cumar containing Aroclor 1254? 12 A. I don't know what you mean by certain risk? 13 14 A. 15 Okay. Any type of risk? There seemed to be evidence that in some isolated cases problems could occur, yes. 16 & 17 18 And didn't some of these claims that were coming in in dicate to you that there might be a risk of these people having Cumar painted silos with Aroclor 1254 in the Cumar ? 19 A. 20 You must remember, Mr. Woodworth, I was only aware of two farms in Ohio and some reference to many more silos 21 are out there that could or could not contain the coating 22 called Cumar. So the information i had did not give 23 me any feeling or any understanding that this was a 24 widespread problem of great concern. 25 This claim made by Bloomfield Silo Company in December 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1317) 693-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 IS 171 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5 62.2 WATER PCB-SD0000037656 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 of 1970, when ywu bay you're only aware of two farms with) 2 3 A. 4 ft silos, that's excluding Bloomfield Silo Company? That is correct. Could you tell us how many claims or how many farms or 5 how many silos the Legal Department was aware of in 6 1970? 7 A. Oh, I don11 know. 8 Qi ' In 1971 can you tell us how many additional besides those) 9 ones you stated within the motion to produce? Above and 10 beyond that that the Legal Department was aware of? 11 A. I don't know what the Legal Department was aware of in 12 '71. I had mentioned earlier our discussions with the 13 president of Monteagle Silo Company and his activities 14 15 16 17 Q, 18 19 A. 20 Cl 21 22 A. 23 24 Cl 25 in cleaning up silos that his company had erected, con structed, coated. That's the new piece of silo informa tion I had. And let's go back to the -- did you have any piece of silo information from Bloomfield Silo Company? 1 never heard of Bloomfield Silo Company until recently. Are you aware ol the position of the State of Michigan insofar as PCB silos are concerned? 1 believe I have an understanding of some recent activi tiles in the State of Michigan, yes. Would you consider a silo in which PCB is painted, con taminated in any amount, regardless of what amount is in 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 017) 893*4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (317) 792-4712 PAGE 5 6 2.1 WATER PCB-SD0000037657 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ _________ INC.____________________ 1 the silo? o A. If by contaminated you mean PCB1 s are present on the 3 silo wall? 4 y. Inside. 5 A. Yes. J'd have to agree by definition it would be con 6 taminated. I don't know if that's the meaning you had 7 intended. 8& I'm going to show you what's been marked as Defendant's 9 Exhibit 426, and asking not too much the first page, but 10 this particular page, have you seen this before? Or 11 are you aware of this? 12 A. I was aware of some of the information that I have read 13 and read in this document, but I have not seen this par 14 ticular document. 15 y. You're aware of some of the information within it? 16 A. 17 Qi Yes. And what does that -- and what is that to you? 18 MR. OUNGERHELD: Might we read it first, 19 Your Honor. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 Why don't we take a 10 minute recess. We'll reconvene 22 at five after three. 23 (Whereupon at 2:55 o'clock P.M., a recess 24 was taken.) 25 thereupon legal argument ensued out ef the 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 40706 1917) 893-4321 : ?26 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517) 792-4712 page 5624___ WATER PCB-SD0000037658 1 1 3 4 5t 6 7 8 9 10 A. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 A. 21 22 23 24 25 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. presence of the Jury.) MR. WOODWORTH: May I ask the witness of what matters within this document he is aware of? THE COURT: Go ahead (By Mr. Woodworth, continuing:) Mr. Papageorge, showing you this, you said before the break that you were aware of a number -- or something along those lines, things within that document. Can you tell us which ones? I'll try to recall. My information came from trade literature, newsletters, and the like, and then because of the nature of my source, it was rather sketchy, but I was aware of -- MR. JUNGERHELD: A further objection would be that then as to this witness he is being asked to give hearsay information that came to him from apparently some newspapers or magazines or something like that. THE COURT: I'll allow it. Ho said he is aware of it. I'll allow it. I was aware of paragraph one, paragraph two, paragraph three, paragraph five, and the final notes designated here as rule one and rule two. MR. WOODWORTH: Your Honor, I would again move for .its admission. I would think that is sufficient basis for this witness to testify from. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48700 (917) 893*4321 5220 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48003 (517) 792 4712 WATER PCB-SD0000037659 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC 1 MR. JUXGEiU-ELD: We would at ill object. 2 It's got nothing to do with any issues in this lawsuit 3 as to what occurred sometime in 1983. 4 THE COURT: I still don't think it's admis 5 sible because if it's to impeach him, it might be, but 6 it's not. Just because he is aware of something, it 7 doesn't make it admissible. 8 So I will sustain the objection. 9Q 10 Mr. Papageorge, at one point in time during your examination did you state, and I'm not sure if I got it 11 right, that you were not aware or Monsanto was not aware 12 of any PCB's coming out of silo coatings. 13 Did I have that right or is that completely mixed up? 14 A. Well, I'd have to know at what point in time. 15 Q, I think it was, Mr. Papageorge, in response to Mr. 16 Jungerheld's last question to you on direct. 17 A. Could you refresh my memory, please? 18 ft Well, that is what I'm trying to do. I think there was 19 20 21 22 A. a question along the line of was Monsanto ever aware of any PCB's coming out of silos, I think, I'm not sure. Do you recollect testimony along that line? Not that way, 1 don't, no. 23 Q Mr. Papageorge, you are aware that in 1973 there were 24 some federal rules and regulations enacted to the pre 25 sence of PCB's in food? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 17) 893-4321 5228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS 1 7) 792-4712 PAGE 5626 WATER PCB-SD0000037660 1 A. 2 Q. tri ,: / COURT REPORTERS INC. And can you just briefly capsulate or summarize what 3 4A those rules and regulations were? These were rules promulgated by the Food and Drug Admini^ 5 tration and designated the tolerance levels for PCB's 6 in a list of food and animal feed items. I don't believe 7 I remember all of them, but I remember milk on a fat 8 basis was 2.5 parts per million; animal feed, .2 parts 9 per million; baby food, .2 parts per million. 10 11 12 13 14 15 y. 16 17 18 A There was reference to packaging materials. I have forgotten the level permitted. Fish, if my memory serves me right, 5 parts per million. I can't recall any others, but it seems to me I've missed a couple yet. In 1976 the Toxic Substance Control Act was passed. I think we've established that throughout your testimony. Are you familiar with this? Yes, I am 19 Qi 20 21 22 And I think I even already asked you. I'm jumping ahead a little bit, made for the phase-out of certain toxic substances or the control of certain toxic substances in our society and environment, is that correct? 23 A That is correct. 24 yi And was PCB referred to within that act? 25 A Yes. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 171 893-4321 5228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517) 792-4712 WATER PCB-SD0000037661 1 QL o A. tri-city COURT REPORTERS INC. And it vas rutairad to by name, po lychlor inut.od biphony .1 s|? Yes. 3 Ql And subsequent to the passage of the 1976 Toxic Substance 4 Control Act, were there additional federal legislation 5 or federal rules or regulations enacting additional or 6 further tolerance levels of the presence of PCB's in 7 foods? 8A Since I haven't been involved intimately with PCB's here 9 recently, I really don't recall if there is any changes 10 in those foods levels. 11 Ql How about right now? Are you aware of any changes, for 12 example, in fish, that might have even occurred recently? 13 A No. 14 Ql There was testimony, I believe, by one or more, perhaps, 15 of the Defendant's witnesses, that the level in fish 16 was 5 parts per million, correct? 17 A That has been that level all along, yes. 18. Qi Are you aware of whether there was any application for 19 a reduction in that level? 20 A I don't know your use of the word "application." There 21 have been discussions addressed to the possible lowering 22 of that kvcl back in prior to 197b. 23 Ql Did you read a summary of testimony of Dr. Harbison who 24 testified fox Monsanto? 25 A Yes, I did. 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70S 1317)893-4321 52.J6 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 17)792-47 12 ^>AG6 5 6 28_____ WATER PCB-SD0000037662 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. I Qi And did you i eud a summary c f the testimony of Dr. 2 Zimmerman who testified for Plaintiffs? 3 A. Yes. 4 Qi And do you recall that both of them addressed the -- 5 at one time in their past, they had both addressed the 6 matter of the levels of PCB's within Great Lakes fish? 7 A. Yes. 8 Qt And are you aware of their respective positions as to 9 the levels? 10 A. Not specifically, no. In terms of numbers, no. 11 & Would it be fair to say in general terms that Dr. 12 Harbison supported the 5 parts per million and Dr. 13 Zimmerman supported the lower? 14 A. 15 I don't remember the exact numbers but that's a proper way to put it, yes. 16 Qi Mr. Papageorge, in your direct examination in answer to 17 Mr. Jungerhcld, and I might have been confused about your 18 answer, I had understood a question and answer being 19 along the lines of up to 1975 wore there any federal 20 21 22 A. rules or regulations regarding PCB's. Was there a question of that nature? I don't recall that question. 23 Then let me ask you, and I already -- I believe I just 24 did. There were rules and regulations regarding PCB's 25 prior to 1975, weren't there? 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. bay city. Michigan 487oe (517)093 4321 5226 STATE ST saginaw Michigan A8603 (SI7) 792 4712 PAGE 56 2 9 WATER PCB-SD0000037663 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 A. Yes, that is the one wo just discussed. 2 ft Would it be fair to say, Mr. Papageorge, that the 3 tolerance levels, the limitations enacted by the federal 4 government over the years from 1973 to present, have con 5 sistently gone down? 6 A. I think most of the regulations in '73 are still in 1 place. 8 ft Has milk gone down from 2.5 to 1.5? 9 A. There was some talk about lowering it to 1.5. I don't 10 n ft know if that's ever been promulgated. Are you aware or have you ever had any contact or 12 communication with a Dr. Simon that was involved with 13 National Cash Register in the late 1960's. Dr. Sheldon 14 Simon. 15 A. I don't remember thename. Idid talk to NCRpeople. 16 ft Did NCR purchase fromMonsantocarbonless carbon paper? 17 A. No. 18 ft Did Monsanto make carbonless carbonpaper? 19 A. 20 ft No. Did Monsanto make or sell Aroclors as an ingredient to be 21 22 A. used in carbonless carbon paper? That is correct. 23 ft And did NCR, were they one of the companies that pur 24 chased this material? 25 A Yes. 300 PHOENIX. ELOG. SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1317)893-4321 S226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 17)792-47 12 PAGE 56 3 0 WATER PCB-SD0000037664 Trinity COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 Q. And they used Aruclors in the manufacture of carbonless 2 carbon paper? 3 A. Yes. 4 Qi And did they ever have any problems with it or any 5 research or information that they conveyed to Monsanto 6 in the late 1960's? 7 A. I'm not aware of any problems in that application. I'm 8 aware that they had a patent calling for the use of PCB's 9 in the manufacture of the coating, that is applied to 10 carbonless copy paper, and they approached Monsanto II as a supplier of that PCB ingredient. 12 Was there ever a tolerance level for PCB's in carbonless 13 carbon paper enacted, to your knowledge? 14 A No. 15 Qi Not one within the EPA regulations? As waste paper? 16 A EPA, no. 17 Q. Are you aware that the EPA has a classification for 18 PCB's as to possible health effects? 19 A I'm not aware of it appearing on any list as a classifi 20 cation, no. 21 Q Are you aware of the carcinogenic assessment group of 22 the EPA? 23 A Yes. 24 yi And what istheir position on PCB's? 25 A If I remembercorrectly, it's a suspect animal 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 46706 1317)893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I 71 792-47 1 2 PAGE 5 6 3 1 WATER PCB-SD0000037665 TRIClTY COURT REPORTERS INC. I cjrci nogen. 9 ft Did you review Dr. Hartung's testimony? 3 A. I saw his summary of it. 4 ft And within that he referred to certain water quality 5 data or information that he had in writing. 6 A. Yes. 7 ft And do you recall my examination of himsaying that there 8 was statements within there that the carcinogenic 9 assessment group of the EPA considered PCB's as a likely 10 human carcinogen? 11 A I think I recall those words, yes. 12 Would you consider that an accurate representation? 13 A Representation of what?,, 14 Qi That the carcinogenic assessment groupof the EPA con 15 siders PCB's a likely human carcinogen? Hi A I'm not aware that they have officially gone on record 17 with that assessment. 18 ft Did you participate in the NIOSH, what we would call 19 20 A 21 22 symposium, meeting, in 1976, '77? Oh, that was a review panel to critique a document that NIOSH was preparing on PCB's, referred to as the PCB criteria document. 23 ft And there was a fair amount of input into that document, 24 wasn't there? 25 A By whom? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B706 (317)893-4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (3171792 4712 PAGE ___ 5 6 3 2 WATER PCB-SD0000037666 Thi r ry COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 ft By scientists and by industry and by the government? 2 A. Oh, yes. 3 ft That is what I meant when I said a fairamount. 4 Was there other people? 5 A. I think you've covered all the categories. 6 Q. And was there a publication resulting from that? 7 A. Eventually the document was published. 8 ft Was that a N10SU criteria for recommended standard for 9 occupational exposure to polychlorinated biphenyls? 10 A That sounds right, yes. 11 ft Now, there's been some testimony throughout this case, 12 in the direct case, as to NIOSH's statements regarding 13 PCB's. - 14 Did you read summaries or testimony regarding that? 15 A I believe,I recall some reference, yes. 16 ft And there are references in the NIOSK background to 17 their standard of the possibilities of carcinogenicity 18 attributable to PCB, is that correct? 19 A Yes. 20 ft And mutagenicity? 21 A I don't recall mutagenicity, ft Teratogenicity? 23 A I don't recall that, either, 24 ft Effect upon liver enzymes? 25 A Yes. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 71 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS 171 792-47 12 PACE . WATER PCB-SD0000037667 _________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 gi And effect u[joh repiuduction? u) A. Yes, of some species. TRi-ClTY COURT REPORTERS 3 Q. Of some species. 4 Was there any reference to silos within the NIOSH 5 criteria or the NIOSH background information setting 6 forth the standards? . 7A I don't recall any reference to silos, no. 8 Q, This was more oriented toward the work place, was it 9 not? 10 A That is correct. II Q. But carcinogenicity, mutagenicity, andteratogenicity, 12 reproduction problems, those were all to be considered 13 when considering the worker in the work place and ex U posure to PCB's? 15 A Yes, as they always are for their criteria documents. 16 Q Mr. Papageorge, have you seen the Defendant, Monsanto's 17 answers to our Plaintiff's request for admissions and 18 interrogatories ? 19 A I have seen some documents. I don't know that I've seen 20 them all. 21 Ut Dated June 24th, 1982. 22 A I don't remember that specifically. 23 Q. There were contained within this document -- in fact, 24 I might even have the document itself. 25 This is the document I'm referring to, on the 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 7) 893-433 1 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 1517)792-4712 PAGE ,_5.fl3.4_____ WATER PCB-SD0000037668 TRI C!TY COURT REPORTERS _____________________ .__________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 right-hand side. 2 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, I'm sorry, could 3 we have again what that is? 4 MR. WOODWORTH: It's entitled Defendant 5 Monsanto's answers to Plaintiff's requests for admission 6 and interrogatories. The document itself is dated June 7 8 A. 9 ft 24, 1982. Was there a question, Mr. Woodworth? I just wanted you to look at it, first of all, and 10 familiarize yourself. 11 12 A. 13 14 ft 15 Who responded to that request for admissions? There is a space here for Mr. Jungerheld's signature, although the document is not signed. If the original of that document were, in fact, signed as the spaces are set forth to be signed, would you IB presume then that it was Mr. Jungcrheld who, in fact, 17 answered the requests? 18 A. Yes. 19 ft And at that particular time was he, in fact, acting as 20 attorney on behalf of Monsanto? 21 A. in 1982, yes. 22 ft 23 24 25 And if we can look at this, first of all, on the lefthand side, the requests themselves. That's the requests that we set forth, Mr. Papageorge. And it's directed to the three Defendants in this 300 PHOENIX. BLOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 46706 13171893-4321 3236 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4d603 15171792-4712 PAGE 56 3 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037669 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 action, and it's directed to Monsanto Cumoany, is it 2 not? 3 A. Yes. 4 ft And since it's directed to Monsanto Company and not 5 Mr. Jungerheld, may we suppose that Mr. Jungerheld 6 answered these as a representative for Monsanto Company 7 then? 8 A. Yes, you can suppose that. 9 Ql Mr. Papageorge, would you road just the introductory par4 10 graph as to what these documents are. 11 A. Which -- 12 ft This one here. 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, I fail to see 15 the relevancy of this introductory paragraph or anything 16 else. If he has a question about them, ask the question. 17 THE COURT: Do you have a question? 18 MR. WOODWORTH: The introductory paragraph 19 states what in fact they are. 20 MR. JUNGERHELD: He just told the Jury what 21 they are. 22 MR. WOODWORTH: Well, is the Jury familiar 23 with what requests are to admit and what the nomenclature 24 is? 25 THE COURT: Well, 1 think this could be 300 PHOENIX. BLOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 1517) 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 151 7) 792-4712 WATER PCB-SD0000037670 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 speeded up a little bit, perhaps. Why don't you yet 2 to the question that you have in mind. 3 MR. WOODWORTH: If I may lead the witness, 4 then, as to what the introductory paragraph is. 5 Q. 6 7 8 9 Mr. Papageorgo, this introductory paragraph and these requests to admit, would in fact state these are -- we set forth a statement and we ask that it be -- to be admitted or denied. And in the event it's denied, to deny it or answer the questions in relation to it. 10 11 A. 12 Is that what you understand from this? Since I haven't read the document, I have no way I can respond to your question. 13 Ql 14 Let's look at Question No. 1. Question No. 1 is asking for the admission that-- and it simply says, does it not, 15 and what we set forth is: Polychlorinated biphenyls 16 are a contaminant. 17 Correct? 18 A. That is what it says, yes. 19 gi And would you toad the answer, please? 20 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, I'm going to 21 object to the entire procedure. This witness did not 22 sign these. He is not familiar with these, he just 23 said he never saw these. He was asked on direct -- or 24 not on direct, but he was asked a little bit ago about 25 whether or not PCB's would be a contaminant in a silo 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (51 7) 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15171782 4712 PAGE ____ 56 3 7 WATER PCB-SD0000037671 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 y, 15 16 17 18 19 A. 20 21 22 23 24 25 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. if it was on the walla. Ho answered that specific ques tion. The question to him here or put here is polychlori nated biphenyls are a contaminant, period, without any further elaboration whatsoever. And that is, in the first place, an improper question. It doesn't take into account in the electrical industry, for example, or in certain other applications, it does not -- it is not a contaminant. Apparently it's an attempt to impeach this witness with these documents that are not his and he is not familiar with. THE COURT: I'll allow it. The question, again, or the admission being asked, Mr. Papageorge -- THE COURT: That is all right. There is already a question. The question was the answer. Read the answer. ' The answer typed on this page goes as follows: "Response. Denied as stated. This request for admission is also objected to in that it is vague be cause of the lack of definition of the essential term containment (sic). Plaintiffs are reminded that several witnesses whose depositions had been taken, also were unable to agree with that statement. 300 phoenix, slog. SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (5171 893-4321 S226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1317) 792*471 2 PAGE . WATER PCB-SD0000037672 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.__________ 1. "Without definition of the term and moro precision 2 regarding levels and substances, Monsanto must deny 3 the allegation." 4 Q. Okay. Look at Page 2, please. No. 3, the admission 5 6 7 8 A. 9 Qi 10 A. 11 12 Qi asked for is: Polychlorinated biphenyls as a contami nant have no use in foods, milk, or humans. Correct? That is what it says. Would you read the response, please? "The response. Denied. See answer to Admission No. 1 which we incorporate herein by reference." If you will move ahead, Mr. Papageorge, to Admission 13 No. 11. _ 14 A I have it. 15 And the admission requested is that two Michigan silos ltt existed on the premises of the Plaintiff and that the 17 silos were sold and solcy constructed by the Michigan 18 Silo Company and/or C & B Silo Company, and that such 19 silos contained Aroclor 1254 and manufactured by Monsanto 20 Company. 21 Correct? 22 A it says Monsanto Chemical Company. 23 Q. I'm sorry, Monsanto Chemical Company. 24 Would you read the response, please? 25 A "Denied as stated. The records produced at the Roy 300 PHOENIX, BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70B (5 I 7) 893-432 I 5226 dlATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 I 7) 792 47 I 2 PAGE 5 6 39 WATER PCB-SD0000037673 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1. "Colo deposition and Plaintiffs' June 27, 1977, 2 answer to Michigan Silo' s summary judgment motion, 3 and Plaintiffs' deposition at Pages 28 through 33, 4 inclusive, appear to indicate that one silo was built 5 and one was rebuilt on the Haley farm which con 6 tained several other silos as well. Monsanto further 7 denies manufacturing the silo." 8 Ql Would you then go to No. 13. The admission asked for is 9 that the two Michigan silos on the premises of the 10 Plaintiffs were rendered unusable because they were coat 11 ed with a material containing Aroclor 1254 as manu 12 factured by Monsanto Chemical Company. 13 Correct? 14 A. That is the wording, yes. 15 Qi And what is the response? 16 A Denied. 17 Ql Okay. And if -- we'll go then because there is just 18 the. denied, to the next -- to No. 14, the interrogatory. 19 The first, it asks for: State in detail the facts which 20 you base your denial and the reasons for such denial. 21 22 A And would you state the response to that? "The silos on the Haley farm have been used from the 23 time of construction. Plaintiff continued to use the 24 silos even without recoating which was another 25 alternative available to Plaintiff." 300 PHOENIX. BLOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48700 (517)893-4321 S2J6 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15171792-4712 PAGE 5 fi 4 0 WATER PCB-SD0000037674 TRI CiTY COURT REPORTERS ___________________________________________________ INC. 1y No. 31, Mr. Papageorgo. The admission asked for is 2 that Cumar contains as one of its ingredients Aroclor 3 1254. And the response? 4 A. Denied. 5y And it goes on to ask in Interrogatory No. 32, Sub-A, 6 state in denial facts upon which you base the denial and 7 the reasons for such denial. And would you state the 8 response, please? 9 A The response is: 10 "Cumar is a registered tradename of either the Neville 11 Chemical Company or the Barrett Division of the 12 Allied Chemical Company and it does not contain 13 Aroclor 1254." 14 y Going to No. 41,please? ~ 15 A I have it. 16 Ql The admission asked for is that said Cumar containing 17 Aroclor 1254 was in the Michigan Silos built on Clayton 18 Gemmell's farm. And the response is? 19 A Denied. 20 y No. 45, please, that the admission asked for is that 21 the Aroclor 1254 discovered in the blood serums and 22 fat tissues in the cattle on the Haley farm came from 23 the Cumar sealant used on the silos sold by Michigan 24 Silo and C & B Silo Company. 25 The respnse? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 15171893-4321 5236 STATE ST SAGINAW MICHIGAN 48603 1517)792-4712 PAGt ___[1641____ WATER PCB-SD0000037675 TRl-ClTY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. 1 A. Denied. : 2 ft No. 49, please? 3 A. I have it. 4 ft The admission requested is that the silos sold to Haleys 5 from the Gemmells contained Cumar sealant which con 6 tained Monsanto's Aroclor 1254. 7 Response? 8 A. Denied. 9 ft And again No. 57, the admission, I take it, might even 10 be a repetitive one, is that Cumar contained polychlori 11 nated biphenyls, otherwise known as Aroclor 1254. 12 And the response? 13 A Denied. 14 ft Thank you. Mr. Papageorge, are you aware of the IARC 15 monographs? First of all, maybe I should say, are you 16 aware of IARC? 17 A Yes, 1 am. 18 ft And what is IARC? 19 A I believe I have the right laboratory, I believe it's 20 a research laboratory that does animal toxicity work. 21 ft Would it be, IARC, the International Agency for Research 22 on Cancer? 23 A No, that is a different group. That is an international 24 group that considers the health effects of chemicals. 25 ft And do you know what iARC's position is insofar as PCB's 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 IS I 7) 893-4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS 1 7) 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5 4 ? WATER PCB-SD0000037676 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.____________________ 1 and their toxicity is concerned, toxicity to animals 2 and humans? 3A I believe they take the position that it is a likely 4 carcinogen. 5 Q. And do you know what position they take as to its effect 6 upon the immune-suppression system or immunology? 7 A. I haven't studied that part of their reports, so I'm 8 not knowledgeable of their position. 9& Are you knowledgeable of their position insofar as 10 endocrine effects are concerned? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Reproductive? 13 A. No. - 14 Qi Metabolism effects of PCB's? 15 A No. 16 fli Mr. Papageorge, are you aware of the National -- or the 17 United States Department of Commerce, National Technical 18 Information Service report on carcinogens in December of 19 20 A 1981 ? I have had occasional opportunity to be aware of it, 21 yes. 22 Qt And have you encountered it or become partially aware of 23 it in your pursuance of their duties for Monsanto? 24 A Yes. 25 Q. And do you know what their position is as to the toxicity 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70B 0171893-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 OI7I792-47I2 PAGE ___ 5 6 4 3 WATER PCB-SD0000037677 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 of PCB's in relation to animals? 2 MR. HAHN: I think I'm going to object. I 3 think this calls for hearsay. It calls for this witness 4 to bear a fact what some other organization may have 5 said and it's clearly hearsay. 6 THE COURT: Isn't it already in or is it -- 7 MR. WOODV-JORTH: I think it is in on direct. 8 THE COURT: So I'll allow it. 9 ft Do you recall the question, sir? 10 A. Yes, I do. I believe the proper expression is suspect It animal carcinogens. 12 And what is the purpose of this group, to your knowledge? 13 A. Which group, sir? 14 ft The National Technical Information Service and their 15 National Toxicology Program. Is it to ascertain toxi 16 cological effects of chemicals on humans? 17 A. It's two-fold. One is to gather all available informa 18 tion regarding carcinogenic effects on humans. The other 19 is to conduct any necessary studies to obtain further 20 information. 21 ft Do they deal only with carcinogenicity? 22 A. At the moment, yes; currently. 23 ft Mr. Papageorge, during the pendency of this action, do 24 you recall getting some requests for production of 25 documents directed to Monsanto's Market Services 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48700 (317)893-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1317)792-47 12 PAGE _____ 5 ft 4 4 WATER PCB-SD0000037678 I 2 A. Department? I don't recall it as such. TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 3 tit 4 I'll show you this, in my file here. That is what I am talking about. 5 6 A. Is that your signature or did somebody siqn it for youj? That is my signature. 7 Qt 8 A. What are the initials next to it? They look like J.G.N. as best I can tell. 9 Qt 10 Do you know what that is? MR. HAHN: Could we have the date of that 11 document? 12 tit Yes. What is the date there, Mr. Papageorge, of your 13 signature? .. 14 A. There is no date to my signature. There is a date under IS the notary public's signature. 16 tit I think that is when it expires. 17 A. Oh, I'm sorry. 18 ti. April 4 -- 19 A. April 4, 1983. 20 tit Mr. Papageorge, what was your connection to the Market 21 Services Department at that particular time in 1983? 22 A. There is no direct connection. It's just that that 23 department provides a service to Monsanto and its 24 customers and also internally to anyone who requests 25 information. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (317)893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW MICHIGAN 48603 15171792-4712 PAGE 564 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037679 ________________________________________________________________________________________ TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 Q, Is that a separate department within Monsanto? 2 A Yes. j I 3 Q. And do you work in that department? 4 A No. 5 Qi Why would you bo answering requests to admit directed 6 to that department? 7A Because attorneys advised that I would be the appropriate 8 one to direct the prepartion of this document and get 9 the necessary information put together -- 10 Qi Does that -- i'm sorry. 11 A -- for a proper response. 12 Qi Mr. Papageorgo, may I take it that each department within 13 Monsanto does, in fact, have a director, a manager, a 14 chief, a head person, within each department? 15 A Yes, they do. 16 Q. And who would have been the head of that particular 17 department in 1983? 18 A I really don't know. 19 Qi It was not you? 20 A That is correct. 21 Qi And in April of 198 3 who was the director of Monsanto's 22 Medical Department? Dr. Roush? 23 A Dr. George Roush. 24 Qi And is Mr. Guffey -- or Dr. Guffey the director of that 25 department? What does he have to do with it? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (3171693-4321 5'26 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (S 1 7) 792-47 1 2 PAGE 56d WATER PCB-SD0000037680 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 A. Dr. Guffey is a munbur of that department and reports to _> -- and works for Dr. Roush. 3 Qi I'm going to ask you, there is in here a request as to 4 No. 8, correct? 5 MR. JUNGER11ELD: Which of these are we talking 6 about now? 7 MR. WOODWORTH: I'm sorry. To the Medical 8 Department. Response -- this is the response of Monsanto 9 Medical Department to motion to produce documents. 10 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, I'll object to 11 this. This witness is not a member of the Medical De 12 partment. And I don't know what this whole procedure 13 is, to read all these pleadings one after another, but 14 I'm going to object if it's an attempt to impeach this 15 witness because it was signed by Dr. Gaffey, who is a 16 member of the Medical Department, not by Mr. Papageorge 17 who is not. 18 MR. WOODWORTH: Your Honor, what we have is 19 a corporation. And when we send out a document, it seems 20 that we have different signatures appearing on documents, 21 and I think when Mr. Papageorge is sitting in this t>ea> trial testifying on behalf of Monsanto as to PCB's and 23 its effects, and that is specifically what this litigation 24 is about, I may ask him about documents that other people 25 have signed for on behalf of Monsanto. 300 PHOENIX, BLOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (917)893-4321 S226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792-4712 PACil. _$642-- WATER PCB-SD0000037681 TRl CITY COURT REPORTERS __________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC__________________________ 1 THE COURT: i'll allow it.. He's indicated 2 that he's answered for other departments in other cases, 3 so I'll allow it. 4 ft 5 No. 8 states a request for any analytical research done by the Monsanto Medical Laboratory Department during 6 the use of Aroclor 1254. 7 Correct? 8 A. That is what it states. 9 ft 10 And what is the response? MR. JUNGERHELD: You said during the use of 11 it. I think it's "regarding". 12 MR. WOODWORTH: Regarding, I apologize. I 13 picked "during" from someplace. 14 ft 15 To restate it, make sure we have it correct for the record. No. 8 , any analytical research done by the 16 Monsanto Medical Laboratory Department regarding the 17 use of Aroclor 1254. 18 And the response? 19 A. None. 20 ft 21 Would that be because ycu only had your research, the medical research done by outside laboratories or that 22 the Medical Department never conducted any or hired any 23 outside research? 24 A. Well, I suspect that this expression "analytical research" 25 and Monsanto Medical Laboratory resulted in the 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870B IS 171 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5 171 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5 6 4 8 WATER PCB-SD0000037682 1. 2 3 y. 4 5 A. 6 7 8 Q, 9 10 11 A 12 13 14 y. 15 16 17 18 A 19 20 21 '22 23 24 25 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________ non-roripon.su bucau.su there is no Monsanto Analytical Medical Laboratory. So rather than saying that, you just said "none" is that right, or Mr. Gaffey -- Dr. Gaffey said none? Well, I don't know what went on in Mr. Gaffey's thinking, but that is what the thought -- felt was the appropriate response. Mr. Papageorge, I'm going to show you Plaintiff's Proposed Exhibit No. 424A and ask you if you can identify that, please. This is a letter from Dr. Lynn Willett addressed to me in which he is describing the status of his study program, and it's dated December 27, 1972. We've had testimony both from Dr. Willett and yourself as to contacts back in 1972. Is this an example or a representation of the con tacts, this letter? This is a representation, yes. MR. WOODWORTH: I'd move for the admission, Your Honor. i MR. JUNGERIIELD: Your Honor, it would appear to be hearsay. I think properly this would have been, if there is some relevance to it, this would have been brought up with Dr. Willett here. I think it's hearsay as to this witness. 300 PHOENIX, BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70B 1317)893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW MICHIGAN 48603 (5 17)792-47 12 PAGE 5 ft 4 ( WATER PCB-SD0000037683 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 Mil. DAVIDSON: Same objection. Your Honor. 2 MR. WOODWORTH: Your Honor, it clearly isn't 3 hearsay. It's a letter to Mr. Papageorge resulting as 4 a result of their telephone conversations and it starts 5 off saying that it's in response to their telephone 6 conversation. 7 THE COURT: Let me see the letter. 8 MR. WOODWORTH: Certainly. 9 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, in the interest 10 of order, I might mention that there are a series of 11 these 424A through H, and we would have the same objec 12 tion to all of them. They are letters from and to 13 Dr. Willett, by, in some cases, I believe, Mr. Papageorge. 14 But in most cases other parties and in some cases they 15 are a letter by other parties to apparently the OARDC. 16 I think this should have been properly brought up 17 when Dr. Willett was here, but it wasn't, and con 18 sequently it is hearsay as to this witness, a statement 19 allegedly made by Dr. Willett, certainly under 20 circumstances that would render it hearsay. 21 THE COURT: Well, I think at Least this one, 22 I can't rule on the other exhibits, but this one con 23 tains -- it refers to a telephone conversation and I 24 think it does suggest not just a statement of Dr. 25 Willett, but statements that were made to him by Mr. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (3171893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792-4712 Pa^c5650_____ . WATER PCB-SD0000037684 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 Papayeoryc. 2 They're paraphrased by Dr. Willett but they are from 3 Mr. Papageorge, some of them are, so I will allow 424 4 over the objections. 5 MR. WOODWORTH: 424A. 6 THE COURT: A. 7 y. Mr. Papageorge, directing your attention to this, and 8 I'm not going to ask you to read it at this particular 9 time, but generally what is the gist of this letter? 10 Can you tell us that or would you prefer reading it? 11 A Whatever you wish. I can try to paraphrase. 12 Qi If you would, please. 13 A He informed me by this letter --. 14 THE COURT: You might give the date there. . 15 A The letter is dated December 27th, 1972. And he con 16 firmed a telephone conversation he had had with mo the 17 previous week telling me that his project has progressed 18 well; however, adequate progress was no longer possible 19 because of a shortage of funds and he needed the funds fo|r 20 supplies and labor. 21 It went on to say that it is costing him about a 22 thousand dollars each month to conduct this research 23 program and ho was accumulating many samples until he 24 could get some money to pay for the analyses. And he 25 went on to suggest that with the coming year and Monsanto 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (317)893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517)792-4712 PAGE ___ 5..5_L_ WATER PCB-SD0000037685 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 doing it's planning, that we might wish to consider 2 funding his research program, 3 ft The research program into decontaminating silos, is 4 that correct? 5A That was part of the proposal. 6 ft Thank you. I'm going to show you Proposed Exhibit No. 7 424B and ask you to identify that, please. 8 THE COURT: Are there several more of these, 9 Mr. Woodworth ? 10 MR. WOODWORTH: Yes. Shall 1 just give them 11 to him? 12 THE COURT: Yes. We'll take a short recess. 13 You can take a look at them. Wee'll recess until ten 14 after four. 15 (Whereupon a recess was taken.) 16 ft (By Mr. Woodworth,continuing:) Mr. Papageorge, before 17 the break I asked if you could identify 424B. 18 Now, are you able to? 19 A 20 ft 21 A 22 Yes. And what is that? it's a letter addressed by me to Dr. Willett,dated March 2, 1973. 23 MR. WOODWORTH: And I'd move for the admission 24 Your Honor. 25 ___________________________THE COURT: Mr. Juncerheld?______________________________ 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY, MICHIGAN 4870B IS I 7) 883-4321 3226 ST ATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517)792-4712 PAGE 56 5 2 WATER PCB-SD0000037686 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ______________________________________________________________________________________INC__________________ 1 MR. JUNGERIIELD: No objection to that one, 2 Your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Mr. Davidson? 4 MR. DAVIDSON: No objection, Your Honor. 5 THE COURT: It is admitted, 424B, without 6 objection. 7 Q. This is where you forward the sum of -- you forward a 8 check dated February 14th, 1973, payable to Ohio 9 Agricultural Research and Development Center in the 10 sum of $5,000 but you sent it to Dr. Willett, correct? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Ql And the funds are offered to help him continue his 13 PCB studies? _ 14 A That is correct. 15 Q. And the last paragraph, Mr. Papageorge, would you read 16 that, please? 17 A "We continue to be very interested in studies related 18 to PCB's and hope that you can share with us the re 19 20 ti 21 22 A 23 24 Q. 25 sults of your studies as they develop.'" Thank you. I'll direct you to Proposed Exhibit 424D and ask you to identify that, please. This is a letter sinned or addressed by Dr. Willett, addressed to mu, dated March 13, 1973. And what was this in reuard to? How did this come into -- is this in response to the donation or the funding? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 IS 17) 893-4321 5228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 (517)792-4712 PAGE 5 6 51 WATER PCB-SD0000037687 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 A. Yea. Dx . Willett ib thinking mo for the $5,000 for 2 his studies. 3 MR. WOODWORTH: I'd move for its admission, 4 Your Honor. 5 . MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, the same objec 6 tion as before. Your Honor. This is hearsay as to this 7 witness. It could have been presented to Dr. Willett 8 when he was here on the stand. Now he's gone and it's 9 hearsay as to this witness. 10 MR. DAVIDSON: I don't have any objection. 11 Your Honor, except that it's been testified to before 12 that he got the gift, so I think we're just going over 13 extraneous material now. - 14 - THE COURT: I'll allow it. I don't think 15 it's hearsay. 16 Q. This letter, dated March 13, 1973, thanksyou for Monsanto 17 Industrial Chemical Company's direct gift of $5,000 18 for studies to eliminate PCB's in silos, correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Ql And he is sayingthisassistance wiLl play a major role 21 in the research program and he further thanks you for 22 the funds? 23 A. Yes. 24 Qi And you apparently, in regard to thesecondparagraph, 25 provided some information to him on the PCB problem on 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48700 IS 17) 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 (5 I 7) 792-47 I 2 PAGE 56 54 WATER PCB-SD0000037688 TRI-ClTY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 March 6th and 7th, is that correct? 2 A. That is correct. 3 & And that you met with Mr. -- Dr. Willett and his wife 4 at the Wooster Inn, is that correct? 5 A That is correct. 6 Ql Now, I next direct your attention to 424E and ask you if 7 you can identify that. 8A This is a copy of a letter by Dr. Willett that's 9 addressed to Mr. John Craddock of Monsanto. 10 Qi And is this another continuation of the contact with 11 Dr. Willett at OSU? 12 A This appears to be a continuation of that. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q. 25 MR. WOODWORTH: 1 move for its admission, Your Honor, please. MR. DAVIDSON: I have no objection. MR. JUNGERHELD: I do. Same objection. Your Honor. This is hearsay as to this witness. It isn't even written to him. THE COURT: Did you have any knowledge of this before today? MR. WOODWORTH: Pardon? THE COURT: Would you ask the witness if he had any knowledge of this letter. Do you have any knowledge of this prior to today and the work that Dr. Willett was doing that is referred to 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B706 1317)893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1317)792-47 12 PAGE 5 5 5 WATER PCB-SD0000037689 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC_____________ 1 within the letter? 2 A. This is the first time I seen this letter. 3 q, But the information that he's referring to within the 4 letter, the research that Dr. Willett's conducting, 5 6 A. 7 8 9 10 11 12 did you have knowledge of that? I have knowledge in recent years. THE COURT: Let me see the letter. Do you have a response to the hearsay objection, Mr. Woodworth? MR. WOODWORTHi As to this particular witness, Your Honor? THE COURT: As to this exhibit. You are offering 424E. Mr. Jungerheld is objecting that it's 13 hearsay. 14 MR. WOODWORTH: Well, I think this witness -- 15 Qi Do you have personal knowledge of the experiment that 16 Dr. Willett was conducting, the tests and research that 17 he was conducting? 18 A. At what point in time, sir? 19 Qi Prior to 1982? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And at one point in time Dr. Craddock took over your 22 position or was your position divided into two parts 23 and Dr. Craddock moved into one of them? 24 A. I don't recall the exact sequence, but there was a time 25 period between my involvement directly with PCB's and 300 PHOENIX. BLOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B70B 1317)893-4321 5226 STATE ST. S GINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (317)792 4712 pAGe R S ft WATER PCB-SD0000037690 ____________________________________ TRICITY COURT REPORTERS _________________________ INC.__________ 1 Dr. Craddock's involvement. 2 Q. And Dr. Craddock ca;uo after you, involved in the PCB's? 3 A Correct. 4 Ut And was or is the director of Products and Environmental 5 Safety for Monsanto? 6 A. Yes. I 7 y And he was in 1982? 8 A That is correct. 9 Q. And is now? 10 A. That is correct. 11 y And this is Dr. Craddock sitting in the Courtroom? 12 A Yes. 13 Qt Now, Mr. Papageorge, when Dr. Craddock took over that 14 position, what area did you go into? I'm not quite clear 15 on that myself. 16 A 17 18 At the time Dr. Craddock was given his current assignment, I was Director, Environmental Operations, for an operating unit within Monsanto that had no relationship 19 20 y 21 22 whatever with PCB's. Did you continue on with your contact in that area and Dr. Craddock refer to you or have some communication with you as to carrying over of prior matters? 23 A Not at that time, no. 24 y 25 You said that you aid have knowledge of certain materials within this letter at one time or in earlier years? 300 PHOENIX, blog. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (5 171 893-4321 S226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5171 792-4712 WATER PCB-SD0000037691 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.________________ 1 A. In recent years. 2 y In recent years. Okay. 3 What type of knowledge have you possessed? 4 A. As of January, 1983, Dr. Craddock reported to me, so I 5 again became involved with PCB's in an indirect manner. 6 And Dr. Craddock would keep me informed of developments 7 8y in his area of responsibility. And was that not a social-type thing, that was more a 9 professional relationship within the company? 10 A Yes. 11 y And as a result of that did you have occasion to review 12 Dr. Willett's research or ongoing research? 13 A I don't know that I'd use the word "review" because that 14 implies an in-depth study. I was given a status report 15 and I relied on Dr. Craddock to manage that matter. 16 y And, in fact, this letter preceded the time when Dr. 17 Craddock would have given you the status report, is that 18 correct? 19 A That is correct. 20 THE COURT: All right. I'll allow this letter 21 as part of the communications which evolved in the series 22 of communications between Dr. Willett and the Defendant. 23 24 y I'll allow it. 424E. This report, in -- I guess it would be judgmental as to 25 what detail, but. this does in fact report Dr. Willett's 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 71 693-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 46603 IS 171 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5 fi 5 8______ WATER PCB-SD0000037692 1 2 3 4 5 ft 6 A. 7 8 9 ft 10 11 12 13 A. 14 ft 15 16 A. 17 18 19 ft 20 21 A. 22 23 24 25 research on silos, does it not? TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. MR. JUNGERHELD: Excuse me. I didn't mark down a date for this. Your Honor. Could we have the witness tell us v/hat date it is? What is the date, please? The letter is dated November 29, 1982, addressed to Dr. -- to Mr. Craddock, and it does relate the status of studies that are ongoing in Dr. Willett's laboratory. The seond page of that, please, Mr. Papageorge. The first sentence states: I have determined that the cost of these experiments will be approximately $6,000. Correct? Yes, that's correct. And, Mr. Papageorge, I refer vou to -- then to Plaintiff ' s Proposed Exhibit 424F and ask if you can identify that. This is a letter dated December 13, 1982, signed by Dr. Craddock, addressed to Dr. John Hibbs, who is with the Ohio Agricultural Research and Development Center. And was that anything to do with the exhibit we just admitted, the prior exhibit? This appears to be a response to Dr. Willett's request for funding of $6,000 to continue his studies. MR. WOODWORTH: Your Honor, I'd move for admission of that exhibit. THE COURT': Mr. Davidson? 300 PHOENIX. BLDG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 15 171893-4321 5228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (5171792-47 12 PAGE 5 6 5 9 WATER PCB-SD0000037693 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Ql 8 910 11 12 A. 13 Ci 14 15 16 A. 17 Ql 18 A. 19 Cl 20 A. 21 22 gi 23 A. 24 25 Cl MR. DAVIDSON: TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _______________________________________________ INC.____________________ No objection. THE COURT: Mr. Jungerheld? * MR. JUNGERHELD: Same as before. Your Honor, these are all hearsay as to this witness. THE COURT: I'll allow it, 424F. I'll allow it over objection. Just to capsulate that, Mr. Papageorgc, may we assume that in response to the prior letter Monsanto did in fact convey to OARDC for Dr. Willett's research, the $6,000? Is that correct? That is correct. Now, Mr. Papageorge, in 1983 are you aware whether or not Monsanto created or funded or granted any money to OARDC for any additional studies? Yes. For Dr. Willett? Yes. And what was that and when was it? I don't recall the specific month, but, as I recall, it was the latter halt of 1983. And how much money was it? I don't remember the exact amount; over a thousand dollars. Dr. Willett testified, 1 believe, the amount lie received 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 IS I 71 893-4321 3228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15171 792 47 12 PAGE----- 5 6 6 0---- WATER PCB-SD0000037694 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC. I a grant or a gilt or a funding, I'm not sure of the 2 proper terminology, in the amount of one hundred eleven 3 eight hundred eighty-eight thousand dollars. 4 Does that sound familiar? 5A That is close from what I recall, yes. 6 THE COURT: Do you want to repeat that 7 number? 8 MR. WOODWORTH: One hundred eleven eight 9 hundred eighty-eight thousand. 111,888. 10 THE COURT: I think you had a thousand in 11 the wrong place. 12 MR. WOODWORTH: I'm sorry. 13 THE COURT: Say it again. 14 MR. WOODWORTH: A hundred eleven thousand 15 eight hundred eighty-eight dollars. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 MR. WOODWORTH: Getting ahead of myself. 18 It's been a long day. 19 Did Dr. Willett have to submit to Monsanto a grant 20 proposal. 21 A Yes. 22 (Ji And when was that submitted? 23 A Early summer of 1983. 24 0. Do you know the amount of time between the grant pro 25 posal was submitted to Monsanto and the time that he 300 PHOENIX. BLOG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4870S IS I 71 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48003 1517)792-4712 PAGE S ft ft \ WATER PCB-SD0000037695 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________ __________ __ ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC._______________ 1 2 actually received the money, the funding, or OARDC received the funding? l 3 A. it was several months. Almost six months. 4 Qi So we took Dr. Willett's deposition and there was some 5 testimony about that. Were you here for all of his 6 testimony? 7 A. I don't know if I was here for all of it, no. Parts 8 of it. 9 Qi If ho would have submitted this proposal six months prior 10 to him receiving that money, it would have, according 11 to my calculations, roughly been prior -- he would have 12 submitted that proposal to Monsanto prior to the time 13 of his deposition. 14 Are you aware of whether or not that is true or 15 not? 16 A. I don't recall the date of his deposition. And the 17 proposal was followed by a presentation on his part to 18 a group of Monsanto experts who critiqued his study 19 and made comments and he had to modify it and at that 20 time we still hadn't made the decision whether we were 21 interested. 22 yi Was that study done in anticipation of this particular 23 litigation? 24 A. I'm in no position to know that. 25 <j. Has that study been published? 300 PHOENIX. BLDG BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (S171 893-4321 5236 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15171792-4712 PAGE 566?_____ WATER PCB-SD0000037696 TFH-i_ITY COURT REPORTERS ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.______________ 1 A. It isn't completed yet. 2 Q. Has Monsanto received any final report on that study? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Going back to those attachments to that one set of 5 motion to produce as to the names of the claims that 6 were filed, do you recall that? 7 A. I believe I recall that. 8 y. Question No. 5. When you answered that or prior to your 9 answering that motion, did you go about Monsanto and 10 inquire of other people as to the claims or did you just 11 answer that on your own without checking? 12 A. No, I had other people working on it, gathering the 13 data for me, putting it together for my review. 14 (i And since those, do you know how that came to your 15 attention? Did it come through your attorneys -- or 16 Monsanto's attorneys? 17 A. What is that , the -- 18 Ql The request to produce those documents? 19 A. Since it was addressed to me, with my name on it, it 20 came to my desk first, and I went seeking legal counsel 21 on how to best respond. 22 Q. So you went to your LegalDepartment? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q . Prior to answering that, is that correct? 25 A. That is coitect. 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 71 893-4321 5236 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS 1 71 792-47 1 2 PAGE 3_____ WATER PCB-SD0000037697 tri-city COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 And so then when we talk about claims and -- did they 2 assist you in compiling the list of claims? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And we still have some claims, I believe, as a result 5 of other testimony, that weren't listed, and this is 6 in spite of the Legal Department assisting you in 7 compiling that list, is that correct? 8 MR. JUNGERHELD: I'll object. Your Honor. 9 That is Counsel testifying. I don't -- there's been 10 testimony by Mr. Egan about claims against Michigan Silo and 11 I object to the characterization of the testimony. 12 MR. WOODWORTH: I think the question is 13 proper. Your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Go ahead. I'll allow the answer. 15 fr In spite of your contacting legal -- or do you recall 16 the question, rather than me rephrasing it? 17 A. 1 think I recall it. Your question, if I can try to 18 paraphrase it, was in spite of going to Legal Department, 19 they didn't include all the claims. I'm in no position 20 to respond to that since I don't know what all the claims 21 22 gi would have been. Without going into the contents of this proposed 23 exhibit, Mr. Papayeorge, would you concede that if, in 24 fact, that is true, that is actual, would that be a 25 claim that was not mentioned within that particular 300 PHOeNtX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (3 17) 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4S603 <5 l 7) 792-47 12 PAGE _S_4__ WATER PCB-SD0000037698 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.__________________ 1 attachment? 2 MR. JUNGERHELD: Well, Your Honor, I'm going 3 to object. I can't see it from here, but I think this 4 was a document that we've gone over now twice, that has 5 been offered and rejected, and I'm going to continue 6 to object to that. 7 MR. WOODWORTH: I'm not offering it. Your 8 Honor, I'm asking to use that to refresh his recollection 9 or to use it to assist him to answer it. 10 THE COURT: He's already looked at it 11 before and he's never seen it. He's not familiar with 12 it. So I will sustain the objection. He doesn't know 13 anything about it. . 14 Ui Now, I mentioned other names, Mr. Papageorge. Would your 15 answer, if 1 showed you -- or if I were able to show you 16 similar documents in relation to other names, would 17 your answer be the same? 18 A. That is correct. 19 MR. WOODWORTH: That is all I have. Your 20 Honor. / 21 Your Honor, 1 would again move for its admission, 22 although, it's 425. 23 THE COURT: I think I've already ruled on it. 24 RED ELECT EXAMINATION 25 BY MR. JUNGERHELD: 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (9171893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792-4712 PAGE _____ WATER PCB-SD0000037699 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _________________ _____________ ___________________________________________________________________ _____________________________ INC.__________________ 1 Qi Mr. Papugourge, do you happen to recall how long your 2 deposition took that was taken at my office in Saginaw 3 by the attorney for the Plaintiff? 4 A. At least three full days and maybe a part of the fourth 5 day. 6 Qi Did you, Mr. Papageorge, ever tell Dr. Willett or this 7 Mr. Hess down in Ohio that they could not publish 8 anything about PCB? 9A No, that's never been done. 10 Qi And you testified, I guess it's yesterday now, about 11 chlorine, some precautions that were taken in the 12 production process as it related to chlorine. 13 And let me ask you, sir, does PCB have any free 14 chlorine in it? 15 A Well, the chlorine in PCB's is not free. It's not 16 freer than the chlorine in table salt. It's a different 17 material. 18 gi What is free chlorine? 19 A I don't know how to describe it. It's a pungent gas 20 that is used to -- I think many of us have heard of 21 chlorine used to treat drinking water to kill the 22 bacteria that might be in it, the harmful bacteria. 23 It's used in industry for many chemical reactions, 24 of course. It's also used as a bleaching agent to 25 whiten clothing. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (5 17) 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS 171 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5666 WATER PCB-SD0000037700 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 ft 2 3 4 5 A. 6 7 8 ft 9 10 11 12 A. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 ft 22 All right, sir. When we are talking about chlorine, and you made mention of this a minute ago, I'm not quite certain, is that the kind of thing that is put into swimming pools and drinking water and that sort of thing^ Yes, it is used quite extensively to reduce harmful bacteria in drinking water, swimming pool water and the like. You were asked questions about the word "confidential" appearing on the Monsanto operating instructions. And why would the word "confidential" appear on Monsanto's operating instructions? Well, we have, in every case that I'm aware of in Monsanto's chemical business, processes that are develope d by Monsanto, therefore they have techniques and methods that are ;-- we'd like to keep secret from the competi tion . So when these methods are described in a document, we like to avoid having that information being used by the competition mid therefore we mark the entire docu ment confidential or words to that effect, And was the plasticizer industry, for instance, a competitive business? 23 A. Oh, very competitive, yes. 24 ft 25 You were also asked some questions about what is known or what v/as referred to, I guess, as the hygienic guide 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 71 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (S 17) 792-47 1 2 PAGE___ 5 6 62____ WATER PCB-SD0000037701 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ______________________________________________________________ _____________ ___________________________________________________ INC____________________ 1 series. 2 Do you remember those questions? 3 A. I believe 1 do, ves. 4 Q. And the hygienic guide series is -- I think you indicated 5 was attached to the Monsanto operating instructions, if 6 you will, is that correct? 7A 8 ft 9A 10 ft 11 A 12 ft 13 14 15 16 A 17 18 19 20 21 22 ft 23 That is correct. Is the hygienic guide series a published document? Yes, it's a published publicly available document. And was that document confidential? No. There were comments therein about --? and you were asked about those by Mr. Woodworth concerning liver consequences, systemic effects, I think. What was that based on? That's based on the animal studies deliberately designed so that the animal is given high levels to deliberately get some effect so that the researchers can determine what effect would be expected at high levels of exposure. And this is what was reported in that guide regarding the PCB's. And in that guide, in the operating instructions, what is the anticipated exposure? 24 A Anticipated exposure in operations? 25 ft Yes. In other words, is it -- well, what would be - 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B706 IS 17) 893-4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (3 17) 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5 6 fl WATER PCB-SD0000037702 TRI CITY COURT REPORTERS ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.__________________ I would it bo industrial or would it bo in the home or what 2 are you talking about? 3 A. These hygienic guides are designed for the industrial 4 situation, not the pharmaceutical or home consumer situa 5 tion. 6 ft Mr. Papageorge, in addition to being asked yesterday 7 about chlorine, you were also asked about biphenyls. 8 Is biphenyls a substance that is comonly used in 9 some chlorine applications? 10 A. Well, it's commonly used, yes. 11 ft Can you give us an example of a commonly used application 12 of biphenyl? 13 A. Yes, 1 can, and one that is rather unique. Biphenyl 14 is used to coat the boxes and the tissue paper used to 15 wrap citrus fruits, grapefruit, oranges, and the like 16 to prevent a mold from starting and spoiling the fruit. 17 So it'a approved by the Food and Drug Administration 18 for that close contact with fruit. 19 ft You were also asked about HCl. What is HCl? 20 A. HCl is the chemical shorthand to describe the gas that 21 is used when mixed with water to make muriatic acid. 22 ft And can you give us some uses of muriatic acid or a 23 24 A. use that -- Oh -- 25 MR. WOODWORTH: Object to the relevance of 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 15171893-4321 5236 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792-47 12 f'AGE __ 56-6-9-- WATER PCB-SD0000037703 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 this. It's redirect and i don't -- muriatic acid 2 didn't even come up in the hygienic guide. There was 3 a reference to IICl. And I think it's irrelevant and to 4 how many different cheTiicals or how many other different 5 compounds in chemistry can HCl make. 6 MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, Counsel in a 7 series of questions attempted to infer a lot of serious, 8 dangerous things in the manufacture of polychlorinated , 9 biphenyls and one of them that he specifically raised 10 and dwelled upon was HCl. U THE COURT: I'll allow it. 12 MR. JUNGERHELD: Thank you. Your Honor. 13 Qt All right. _ 14 A. Shall I respond? 15 ^ Yes, would you please finish your answer. 16 A. Muriatic acid is commonly used among bricklayers, for 17 example, to wash the surface of the finished brick 18 work to remove the excess mortar and to clean that sur 19 face. It's just one example of many. 20 (j. In your production processes, Mr. Papugewrge, did you 21 do anything or add anything to ncurtralize HCl? 22 A. Yes. When the Aroclors were produced in the reactor, 23 just before they are distilled to refine them to make the 24 finished product, we at Monsanto added lime to neutralize: 25 the HCl pn^sent, to diminish the evolution of any of the 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (5 I 7) 893*4321 5228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792-4712 RAGE ^ n WATER PCB-SD0000037704 1 2 3 4 y, 5 6 7 8 9 A. 10 ft 11 12 13 14 A 15 16 17 18 y 19 20 21 A 22 y 23 24 25 A TRICITY COURT REPORTERS INC. HCl fumes, unci then that neutralized crude Aroclor was sent to a refining unit where it was distilled and the saleable product was made. Mr. Papageorge, you were asked some questions about why you happened to be selected for the post you assumed in 1970 and I forget just what the title of that job was. But can you remind us of what the title was, January 1st, '70, 1 think it was? It was manager. Environmental Control. And can you tell us if you had had any experience v/ith PCB previous to being selected for that job that may have assisted you in being considered and hired for that job? Well, the fact that I managed the plant at which one of the two units that produced the PCB's was a factor. r was very familiar with the product, its uses, the process, characteristics, so on. In connection with your trip to Europe, that you told us about, in, 1 believe it was, '70, I'm not quite certain. That is correct. All right. In '70. And in connection with the presenta tions to various groups that you have talked about, were others from Monsanto present along with you? Oh, invariably I'd' have an individual representing a 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (3171893-4321 S226 STATE ST. S..3INAW. MICHIGAN 48603 15 17)792-47 12 PAGE S ft 7 T, WATER PCB-SD0000037705 1 specific expert iso. TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. ! 2 MR. WOODWORTH: Objection, this has been askec 3 and answered. It was on direct and I don't recall going 4 into this on cross. 5 MR. JUNGERHELD: He certainly did, Your Honor. 6 He attempted to convey the impression that Mr. " 7 Papageorge was a pretty face selected by Monsanto to 8 deal with the situation and I think I'm entitled to show 9 that, indeed, he was -- he and others made presentations, 10 it was not him alone. 11 MR. WOODWORTH: That was not the intent. 12 If Counsel wants to infer that, he is free to infer 13 whatever he desires. However, Your Honor, he already 14 testified on direct that he went with others over to 15 Sweden. I thixik he visited the Netherlands. I think 16 on direct he took along an analyst and someone else. 17 Someone else went to the meeting in Oregon. This has 18 been all done on direct. 19 MR. JUNGERHELD: He raised this, Your Honor. 20 THE COURT: I'll allow it. Go ahead. 21 & In getting back to the point here, Mr. Papageorge, 22 continue on. Did you take others with you on these 23 occasions? 24 A. 1 took others on many occasions, depending on the 25 subject to be discussed and the audience that was being 300 PHOENIX, BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 1317)893-4321 3228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 IS I 71 792-47 I 2 PAGE 5 6 7 2____ WATER PCB-SD0000037706 _______________________________________________________________________________________________ TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 addressed and this included analytical chemists, it 2 included medical doctors, it included, as I mentioned 3 the other day, the personnel from the animal testing 4 laboratory. Those are examples of the types of expertise 5 that I would ask to help me. 6 Ql Mr. Papageorge, to your knowledge are mink different 7 than cows? 8 A. To my knowledge they are definitely different, yes. 9 Qt Do they have different reproductive systems? 10 A. Yes. 11 Ql Do they have a different digestive system? 12 A. Yes. 13 MR. WOODWORTH: Objection, foundation, Your 14 Honor. 15 MR. JUNGERIIELD: Your Honor, he raised this 16 with Mr. Papageorge. He asked him all kinds of questions 17 about -- 18 THE COURT: I'll allow it. 19 Qi Can you tell us if mink are sensitive animals? 20 A. It's my understanding that mink are extremely sensitive 21 animals. 22 Qi Mr. Papageorge, you were asked a whole series of ques 23 tions about several hearings or trials or depositions 24 in which you have given testimony. 25 Did any of these hearings or trials or depositions 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. SAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4S70S (31 71 893-4321 3228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (317) 792-47 I 2 \ PAGE 5 6 7 1 WATER PCB-SD0000037707 TRt-CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.__________________ 1 involve Aroelor 1254 which we're talking about in this 2 lawsuit? 3 A. You may recall the situation that happened in Tennessee 4 involving a transformer which was leaking while in 5 transit from the factory where it was manufactured to 6 the customers. That fluid in that transformer contained 7 Aroelor 1254 and another -- two other chemicals: 8 tetrachlorobenzine and trichlorobenzine. 9 So that's the only case or situation I rememeber where 10 Aroelor 1254 was involved. 11 fli Whose truck or who did the spilling in that case, if 12 you know? 13 A This was either G.E. personnel or a contract hauler 14 hired by the General Electric Company. 15 Ql You were asked some questions about what was referred to 16 as a case by Howell and Parsons. 17 What is your understanding of the exposure in that 18 case? 19 A That was an inhalation problem, a fume emission problem. 20 Fumes originating in a bath of molten Aroelor 4465 that 21 was used in the laboratory that was making dentifrice, 22 dental prosthetics, I think they're called. 23 g. Do you know what the size of the room was that Howell 24 and Parsons were in? 25 A It was not a large room. Ten by fifteen or -- a rather 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 71 893-4321 3228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 1517) 792-47 I 2 PAGE ^JLZ5. _____ WATER PCB-SD0000037708 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTE RS ________________________________________________________________ INC.____________________ 1 small laboratory size ruum. 2 ft Did this involve elevated temperatures? 3 A. Where, in the room? 4 ft To which this 4465 was subjected to. 5 A. Yes, 4465, as best I recall, melts at about -- and that 6 may not be accurate, 400 degrees centigrade, which would 7 make it close to 700 degrees Fahrenheit. So the tempera 8 tures are quite high and you do get fumes from those 9 conditions. 10 ft While I think of it Mr. Papageorge, how long has 11 Monsanto had information on the labels indicating avoid 12 ing exposure to fumes of 1254? 13 A. Since the '30's. ' 14 ft Sir, with reference to the Tennessee case, the Hudson 15 River case, and the Pierce Packing case, that were 16 mentioned to you, did any of those involve any claims 17 of human health or animal health? 18 A. No. In fact, yesterday I think I made a mistake when I 19 confused the Pierce Packing case with animal health 20 effects. All three of those are presence of PCB*s in 21 22 ft the environment or in other materials. Mr. Papageorge I'm going to hand you what's been marked 23 as Defendant's Proposed Exhibit 427. I'll ask you if 24 you can identify that for us, please, sir. 25 A.______This is a copy of a news release prepared by Monsanto, 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4B706 IS 171 893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4SB03 1517)792-4712 PAGE 5 6 7 ^ WATER PCB-SD0000037709 1 2 ft 3 dated January 26, 1976. TRi CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. And were you still in charge of the PCB1 a operations at that time? 4 A. Yes. 5 ft 6 A. Does this deal with PCB and the electrical industry? Yes, it does. 7 MR. WOODWORTH: I believe it's already in 8 evidence. It's been marked and admitted as Plaintiff's 9 Exhibit No. 110, Your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Do you have any objections to 11 the admission of this one? 12 MR. WOODWORTH: No. 13 THE COURT: Mr. Davidson? 14 MR. WOODWORTH: I have an obiection since 15 it's a duplicate. 16 THE COURT: We've been doing that all along, 17 so we'll -- Mr. Davidson? 18 MR. DAVIDSON: No objection. 19 THE COURT: I'll allow 427, is it? 20 MR. JUNGERHELD: Yes, it is, 427. 21 ft 22 23 24 25 And this has not been presented to the Jury or read to th e Jury yet, Mr. Papageorge. Let me ask you, sir, you were asked some questions yesterday by Mr. Woodworth about the TSCA legislation, is that correct? 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 IS 17) 893-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN dS603 1517)792-4712 PAGE 5 6 76 WATER PCB-SD0000037710 TRl-ClTY COURT REPORTERS _____________________ ________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.__________ 1 A. Yus. 2 Qi And does this news release that you have before you, as 3 Exhibit 427, does that predate the enactment of the 4 TSCA legislation? 5 MR. WOODWORTH: Objection to the leading 6 question. I think he can ask what the date is and what 7 TSCA legislation was without suggesting -- 8 THE COURT: Can you ask him that? 9 MR. JUNGERHELD: I'm not suggesting the 10 answer to him, I'ra asking if it predates the TSCA legis 11 lation. I don't think that is leading. 12 THE COURT: All right. Why don't you ask 13 him the dates, if he knows the date of that legislation, 14 or have you asked him that? 15 MR. JUNGERHELD: I haven't, but he did testify 16 to that yesterday. 17 & But tell us, Mr. Papageorgc -- 18 A. As best I recall, the TSCA legislation was passed ip. 19 the third quarter of 1976. 20 ft And the TSCA legislation dealt with what, for just a 21 brief summary of what you testified to yesterday under 22 Mr. Woodworth's exam. 23 A. It enabled the EPA to take certain steps as appropriate 24 to control the sale, distribution, presence of toxic substances. 25 y. What is the TSCA deadline by which all of this had to 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (SI 71 893-4321 3226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517)792-47 12 PAGE 6 6 7 7 WATER PCB-SD0000037711 ___________________ ___________________ _________________________________________________ tri-city COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 be accomplished? 2 A Well, there were several deadlines. The one of interest 3 here is the one referring to PCB's. And yesterday I 4 was in error when I mentioned that the act called for 5 termination in 1978. I nissed it by one year. The act 6 called for termination of sale of PCB's by 1979. 7 Ql Now, Mr. Papayeorge, you -- well, let me ask you that. 8 What is the date then on this news release? 9 A This is dated January 26, 1976. j 10 Qi And in this news release you are announcing what, sir? 11 A It's actually a vice president of Monsanto, Mr. 12 Fitzgerald. 13 Ql But did you have any involvement-with this? 14 A Yes, 1 did. 15 Qi And were you still in charge of the PCB operations at 16 this time in January of 1976? 17 A Yes, 1 did. j 18 Qi 19 And would you then indicate to the Jury, read to the Jury ! what docs this news release, say, January 27, I think 20 you said, 1976, regarding what Monsanto was going to do 21 with its remaining PCB business? 22 A I think I can answer that by reading perhaps the last 23 two paragraphs, 24 d All right. 25 A "Mr. Fitzgerald added, 'That while the PCB issue 300 PHOENIX. SLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (5 171 893-4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (317) 792-47 1 2 PAGE 5 ft 7 B WATER PCB-SD0000037712 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS ___________________________________________________________________INC.____________________ 1 "is a dil ticult one to handle, the difficulty does 2 not now nor will it in the future stem from any 3 lack of effort or cooperation on the part of Monsanto , 4 The problems that we face collectively are rooted in the 5 unique fire resistant and dielectric characteristics 6 of PCB's, and the irreplaceable role they have played 7 in electrical and industrial applications for the 8 past 45 years,1 he said. 9 'The challenges to replace them in an orderly 10 manner without creating another hazard of ec.ual or 11 potentially greater consequences, while at the same time 12 avoiding serious power and transportation disruptions. 13 This is our goal .. 14 In the interim we will continue to work with 15 industry and government to ensure that the restric 16 17 18 ft 19 20 tive measures and controls we implemented in the early 1970's remain in force and are diligently pursued.'" With this news release -- and, by the way, what is done or what was done with the news release back in January of 1976? 21 A. I'm sorry, I missed that. 22 023 What was done with the news release back in January of 1976? 24 A. This particular news release was issued to the repre 25 sentatives of the press. And it's the first paragraph 300 PHOeNIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 (317)893-4321 5228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 (517)792-47 12 PAGE----- 5679__ WATER PCB-SD0000037713 TRICITY COURT REPORTERS INC 1 that really uusor ibeti the latent of tile whole document, 2 ft Would you road that first paragraph to us? A. All right. 4 "The Monsanto Company today announced that it had 5 informed its U.S. capacitor and transformer industry 6 customers and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency 7 that it intends to eventually phase out the production 8 of polychlorinated biphenyl, PCB, dielectric in 9 sulating fluids." 10 ft Now, as of this date did Monsanto have any remaining 11 PCB business other than the electrical business? 12 A That was it. Nothing other than the electrical business, i:i ft Did this document then announce the end of the sole 14 remaining Monsanto PCB business? 15 A Yes. 16 MR. WOODWORTH: Objection, leading and 17 suggestive. 18 THE COURT: I'll allow the answer to stand, 19 ft Now, Mr. Papageorge, could you then have continued to 20 produced PCB after that time, after January of 1976, 21 until the TSCA date became effective in 1979? 22 A Yes. 23 ft Why didn't you doso? Why didyou ceaseproduction then 24 a couple years early? 25 A Well, theelectrical industrywas totally dependent for 300 PHOENIX. BLOC. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (3171693-4321 5226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517)792-4712 PAGE 5 6 R 0 WATER PCB-SD0000037714 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 their fire resistant electrical equipment on PCD's. 2 They had not found a suitable replacement. Their 3 equipment was not designed to accept alternates that 4 were not fire resistant. They required time in their 5 research laboratory to come up with new equipment, new 6 fluids, or a combination of both. 7 They pleaded with us to continue to supply them with 8 this fluid until they could find a suitable replacement 9 and in a very smooth transition phase-out and phase 10 into the alternatives. 11 As a result of that, we continued to supply until 12 they informed us that they were ready for the change. 13 When they did that, and fortuitously it was earlier than 14 the governmental date, so once the industry had made the 15 change, Monsanto was ready to stop production of sales. 16 Q. 17 A. When was that? 1977. 18 Qi Is PCB today still in usein the electrical field? 19 A Yes. In fact, theregulations explicitly point to the 20 permitted continued use in the electrical equipment 21 that is already in place. And they are closed systems, 22 properly maintained, and this accounts for almost half 23 of the PCB's ever produced. So the PCB's are still in 24 use today. 25 Would that included in such items as the lights in this 300 PHOENIX. BLOC. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 4S70B IS 171 893-4321 S226 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 4S603 (5171792-4712 PAGE___ 5681___ WATER PCB-SD0000037715 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 courtroom? 2 A That is right. 3 Q, Is the language or the cautions, I should say, that 4 were -- that you testified to yesterday from the 5 hygienic guide -- let's go back to that for a moment. 6 Liver effects, systemic effects, dermatitis, are 7 these peculiar to PCB? 8 A. No, they're fairly common to many industrial chemicals 9 that are mishandled, misused. 10 ft Are there typical chlorinated hydrocarbon products that 11 would be in use that you might be familiar with? 12 A I believe most of us know about the dry cleaning fluids 13 that are used in dry cleaning establishments. There 14 are several of the chlorinated hydrocarbons used as 15 paint thinners, solvents. There is some that are even 16 used for paint removal, varnish removal purposes. 17 I think occasionally you may find here and there spot 18 remover applications that are available. 19 ft Mr. Papageorgo, regarding your testimony of the use 20 of PCB as a pesticide extender, who developed that use? 21 A That use was developed by the U.S. Department of 22 Agriculture's research laboratories in Bethesda, 23 Maryland. 24 ft And you testified yesterday that the USOA at some point 25 then disapproved of that use. 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS 171 893-4321 3226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48803 IS 17) 792-47 1 2 PAGE 56 8 2 WATER PCB-SD0000037716 _____________________________________________________________________________________ TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 1 Did Monsanto have anything to do with that activity, 2 that disapproval? 3 A. Monsanto, through its medical director, Dr. Kelly, in 4 two methods. One by telephone, where Dr. Kelly called 5 an individual -- 6 MR. WOODWORTH: I'll object to this, what Dr. 7 Kelly called and did, unless we have further foundation ; 8 as to his participation in the phone call. 9 THE COURT: It does sound like hearsay, Mr. 10 Jungerheld. 11 MR. JUNGERHELD: Yes, the question was assumed. 12 Q. Anyway, do you know -- did you have any participation in 13 whatever steps were taken that involved Monsanto with 14 the USDA in stopping that use? 15 A Yes, I was involved in discussions on what action we 16 could take and agreed with Dr. Kelly that we inform 17 the U.S. Department of Agriculture that this was not a 18 suitable use for PCB's and the further permitting of 19 that use not be acceptable to the Department of 20 Agriculture. 21 y, And was that communicated then to the United States 22 Department of Agriculture? 23 A It was. 24 Qi Mr. Papagcorgo, if the silo coating called Cumar, not 25 the Allied or Neville, but the silo coating Cumar, if 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 IS I 7) 893-4321 5228 STATE ST SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (517) 792-47 I 2 page 56 8 3 WATER PCB-SD0000037717 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ INC.____________ 1 that coating had boon properly designed and manu 2 3 A. 4 5 Q, 6 7 8 A. 9 ft 10 factured would the PCB's have come out of it? Not it it's properly designed, properly applied, no. Do you know anything, by the way, about the quality control practices of the Concrete Silo Company or the Michigan Silo Company? No, I don't. Do you know if, in fact, the Concrete Silo Company or the Michigan Silo Company in fact followed this 11 12 A. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 recipe that we talked about for this silo coating? There is no information regarding whether the recipe was in fact the one used or whether it was followed consistently. I have no way of knowing. THE COURT: Mr. Jungerheld, in light of the hour, do you have a substantial amount more of re direct? MR. JUNGERHELD: Well, let's see here. Your Honor. May I consult my cohorts just a minute? THE COURT: Go ahead. MR. JUNGERHELD: Your Honor, I would take probably anywhere from between 30 and 60 minutes. THE COURT: We'll just have to reconvene tomorrow morning. Vie'll recess for the day, members of the Jury. We'll look for you when we reconvene 300 PHOENIX. BLOG. BAV CITY. MICHIGAN 48706 (3171893-4321 5226 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 1517)792-4712 PAGE 5 6^4 WATER PCB-SD0000037718 TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS _________________________________________________________ ____________ _____________ INC._________ 1 promptly at 9 : 00 o'dock tomorrow morning. 2 (Whereupon at 5;00 o'clock P.M., on 3 Tuesday, May 22, 1984, Court was adjourned 4 until 9:00 o'clock A.M., on Wednesday, 5 May 23, 1984.) 6 7 -oOo- 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 oo 23 24 25 300 PHOENIX. BLDG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 40708 IS 17) 893-4321 3228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (317) 792-4712 PAGE 5685 WATER PCB-SD0000037719 1 STATE OF MICHIGAN) 2 COUNTY OF HURON ) SS TRI-CITY COURT REPORTERS INC. 3 4 We, James R. Fritzler, a Notary Public and 5 Court Reporter in and for Saginaw County, State of Michigan, 6 and Donald E. Pearson, a Notary Public and Court Reporter 7 in and for Midland County, State of Michigan, acting in and 8 for Huron County, State of Michigan, do hereby certify that 9 we stenographically recorded the proceedings had and testimony 10 taken in the above-entitled matter, on Tuesday, May 22, 1984, 11 before the Honorable M. Richard Knoblock. 12 We further certfy that the foregoing and 13 attached 199 typewritten pages, or parts of pages, constitute 14 a full, true and accurate record of our stenographic 15 notes then and there taken. 16 17 tX> Jambs k. Fritzler, (g:!PR, CSR-2067 18 Notary Public, Saginaw County 19 My commission expires: 8-30-87 20 21 22 Donara fe^rson, iu-k, lsk-u<: f9 23 Notary Public, Midland County 24 My commission expires: 11-18-87 25 .bmg:____5-22r-84 300 PHOeNIX. BLOG. BAY CITY. MICHIGAN 48708 (8171 893-4321 5228 STATE ST. SAGINAW. MICHIGAN 48603 (317) 792-4712 PAGE 5686 WATER PCB-SD0000037720