Document wDO5obJRLYnbDQje3En2LL7wE

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS CERRO COPPER PRODUCTS COMPANY, Plaintiff, vs. MONSANTO COMPANY, Defendants. ) ) ) No. 92-CV-204 WDS ) Honorable William ) Stiehl ) ) VOLUME H Deposition of Paul B. Hodges taken on behalf of the Plaintiff June 1, 1994 D) TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES COURT REPORTERS ff SUITE 920 906 OLIVE STREET ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63101 PHONE: (314) 621-3777 1-800-280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7358 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 1 1 2 3 4 QUESTIONS BY: 5 INDEX OF QUESTIONERS PAGE NO. 6 Mr. Ricci 7 INDEX OF EXHIBITS 5 8 Exhibit 9 14 10 15 11 12 16 13 14 17 15 18 16 17 19 18 20 19 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 25 Description Page Letter from Ms. Sallwasser with Horner & Shifrin 5 12/6/65 letter to J.W. Goldenberg from P. Hodges 5 12/22/70 Water Abatement Program, Village of Sauget, Biodize 5 1/23/69 Memo Re: Arochlor in Plant Effluent 27 3/4/69 Memo Re: Arochlors & Pollution 37 5/12/69 Memo Re: Arochlors Clean-up from Plant Effluents 39 9/5/69 Minutes of Arochlor Ad Hoc Committee 47 9/9/69 Memo Re: Reduce Sewer Losses of Arochlors in Dept. 246, Krummrich Plant 58 10/2/69, Report of Arochlor Ad Hoc Committee 60 10/9/69 Memo Re: Status Report Arochlors Clean-Up of Plant Effluents 64 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007359 Page 2 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ ( 1 Exhibit Description Page 2 24 3 25 4 5. 26 6 12/11/69 Memo Re: Arochlor Wildlife 1/27/70 Memo Re: Pollution Control Monthly Status Report 4/7/70 Memo Re: Status of Arochlor Pollution control April Report - WGK 67 71 74 7 27 8 28 9 10 29 11 12 30 13 31 14 32 15 33 16 17 34 18 35 19 36 20 21 37 22 23 38 24 25 39 11/10/70 October PCB report Manufacturing 81 12/4/70 November PCB report manufacturing 84 1/5/71 Memo Re: Status of Program for Arochlor Pollution Control 85 1/29/71 PCB in Plant Effluent 89 January, 1971 PCB Report 93 6/3/71 Memo: Status PCB Pollution Control Program 97 7/16/71 Status PCB Pollution Control Program 101 September, 1971 PCB Report 104 11/2/71 Memo Re: PCB Pollution control Program 105 12/2/71 Memo Re: Status PCB Pollution Control Program 112 2/4/72 Memo Re: Voluntary Report for the Federal EPA Survey of Industrial Waste Water Discharge 117 4/12/72 Minutes of Meeting from 4/10/72 123 6/20/72 from S. McWilliams - 128 -Copy....of__6/9/72...prpfipntat 1 on______________ TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007360 1 Exhibit 2 40 3 41 4 5 42 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Description 10/2/72 Status - PCB Pollution Control program 9/24/73 Memo Re: PCB levels Background 2/21/74 Memo Re: Proposed Polychlorinated Biphenyl Standard Page 130 132 134 Page 3 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007361 Page 4 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ , 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS 2 3 CERRO COPPER PRODUCTS ) COMPANY, 4 5 vs. Plaintiff, ) ) ) ) ) No. 92-CV-204 WDS 6 ) Honorable William Stiehl MONSANTO COMPANY, ) 7) Defendants. ) 8 9 10 DEPOSITION OF WITNESS, PAUL B. 11 HODGES, produced, sworn and examined on the 1st 12 day of June, 1994, between the hours of eight 13 o'clock in the forenoon and six o'clock in the 14 afternoon of that day, at the offices of COBURN, 15 CROFT, One Mercantile Center, 29th Floor, St. 16 Louis, Missouri 63101, before KELLY L. WILLIS, a 17 Notary Public and Registered Professional Reporter 18 within and for the State of Missouri, in a certain 19 cause now pending in the United States District 20 Court, of the Southern District of Illinois, 21 Eastern Division, wherein CERRO COPPER PRODUCTS 22 COMPANY is Plaintiff and MONSANTO COMPANY, is 23 Defendant. 24 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007362 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 1 2 APPEARANCES 3 For the Plaintiff: 4 LOWENSTEIN, SANDLER, KOHL, FISHER BOYLAN 5 65 Livingston Avenue Roseland, New Jersey 07066-1791 6 by: Mr. Richard Ricci 7 8 For the Defendant: 9 COBURN, CROFT One Mercantile Center 10 29th Floor St. Louis, MO 63101 11 by: Mr. Kenneth Heineman 12 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED, 13 by and between counsel for the Plaintiff and 14 counsel for the Defendant that this deposition may 15 be taken in shorthand by Kelly L. Willis, a notary 16 public and shorthand reporter, and afterwards 17 transcribed into typewriting; and the signature of 18 the witness is expressly reserved. 19 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 20 Exhibit 14, 15, 16-Hodges was marked for 21 identification by the Court Reporter.) 22 23 24 Page 5 ! TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007363 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 6 1 PAUL B. HODGES, 2 of lawful age, produced, sworn and examined on 3 behalf of the Plaintiff, deposes and says: 4 DIRECT-EXAMINATION 5 QUESTIONS BY MR. RICCI: 6 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Good morning, Mr. 7 Hodges, I've just handed you a document that we've 8 marked as Hodges 14 for identification purposes, 9 and this is a document with Bates Number C00030. 10 Have you had a chance to review that document? 11 A. What's that? 12 Q. Have you had a chance to review that 13 document? 14 A. Just now. 15 Q. Have you ever seen that document 16 before? 17 A. I don't remember it. 18 Q. The document references a 19 conversation between yourself, and a Mr. 20 Sallwasser from Horner & Shifrin, is that correct? 21 A. It appears to be. 22 Q. Do you have any recollection of 23 having such a conversation with Mr. Sallwasser in 24 and around November of 1965? 25 A. No. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007364 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 7 1 Q. According to the document that we've 2 marked as Hodges 14, the document states that Paul 3 Hodges of Monsanto has indicated that Monsanto 4 Company is very desirous that the force main 5 discharge into the 36-inch overflow sewer south of 6 the tracks rather than north of the tracks as 7 originally contemplated, do you see that in the 8 letter? 9 A. 10 Q. Yes. Do you have any idea as you sit here 11 today why Monsanto was desirous that the force 12 main discharge south of the railroad tracks 13 instead of north of the railroad tracks? 14 A. No, I don't. 15 Q. Do you have any understanding of 16 what the significance to Monsanto was of where the 17 force main that was discussed in the letter 18 discharged? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you know what force main this 21 letter is referring to? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Do you know if it has anything to do 24 with the interceptor line that was going to be 25 installed to accept Cerro's waste and direct it to TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007365 Page 8 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94_______________________ 1 the Village sewers? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Do you have any recollection 4 whatsoever of the events discussed in this letter? 5 A. No. You might say I may very well 6 have been echoing something we got out of 7 Engineering. 8 Q. I'm sorry. 9 Central Engineering? 10 A. Yes. Engineering would be 11 Q. That would be somebody like Mr. 12 Stutz? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. Or Mr. Kasky? 15 A. Kasky or somebody like that, because 16 I'm completely cold on this. 17 Q. In the last sentence of the second 18 paragraph there's a discussion of designing the 19 system under consideration here to allow overflow 20 into Dead Creek during periods of storm runoff and 21 direct dry weather flow from the pumping station 22 into the 36-inch line without overflowing into 23 Dead Creek, do you see that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Does that ring a bell to you at all TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007366 Page 9 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ , 1 as to what issues are under consideration at all? 2 A. Not at all. 3 Q. Do you have any recollection as to 4 what Monsanto's position was with respect to this 5 system? 6 A. No. 7 Q. In the last paragraph on the first 8 page of Hodges 14 there's a discussion of cleaning 9 the 24-inch sewer north of the railroad tracks in 10 order to keep the hydraulic radiant in the 24-inch 11 line, sewer line below the invert elevation of the 12 46-inch overflow sewer, do you see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you know what the hydraulic 15 radiant is? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What is that? 18 A. Difference in levels. 19 Q. Differences in levels of what? 20 A. Of the flow, the sewer line will be 21 higher at one point then it will be at another and 22 the flow will go to the low end, that's hydraulic 23 radiant and that's measured in levels of liquid. 24 Q. Do you know what's meant by the term 25 invert elevation? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007367 Page 10 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 A. No, I don't recall. 2 Q. Do you have any recollection 3 whatsoever of why you were discussing with Mr. 4 Sallwasser cleaning the 24-inch sewers or 5 adjusting the hydraulic radiants in this 6 particular project? 7 A. No. 8 Q. On the second page of the letter 9 there's a discussion of an observation on November 10 8th, that the hydraulic radiant in the 24-inch 11 sewer was approximately 2 feet above the invert 12 elevation of the 36-inch sewer. Do you see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you know why -- withdraw that. 15 Were you aware of any observations being made of 16 any sewer systems or any sewers on the Monsanto 17 property in November of 1965? 18 A. I don't recall any. 19 Q. And you didn't have any involvement 20 in the measurements that are discussed here. 21 A. Not that I recall. 22 Q. The last sentence of this letter 23 indicates, states that the overflow radiant is 24 very important to Monsanto Company, but must be IK controlled by the hydraulic to provide sumper TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007368 Page 11 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 without overflow during dry weather, do you see 2 that? 3 4 A. Yes. Q. Do you know why the overflow radiant 5 was important to Monsanto Company? 6 A. I don't know, in this particular 7 case. I can speculate that - 8 MR. HEINEMAN: Excuse me, please 9 don't speculate just tell him what you know. 10 THE WITNESS: I just don't know what 11 they're talking about here. 12 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) In the last 13 paragraph of the letter there is an invitation for 14 you to comment on the information contained in the 15 letter, do you see that? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you recall whether you, in fact, 18 did comment on any of the conditions stated in the 19 letter? 20 A. I don't recall. 21 Q. And you're shown as receiving a cc 22 of this letter, is that correct? 23 A. That's right. 24 Q. Do you know if you did, in fact, get -JBL a cc of this letter? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007369 Page 12 _______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. If you could turn over to Hodges 15, 3 have you had a chance to review Hodges 15? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. For the record this is a document 6 with Bates number C00032. 7 identify this document? Mr. Hodges, can you 8 A. It says it's comments on 9 specifications, on specifications for Dead Creek 10 Interceptor. 11 Q. Do you recognize it as you sit here 12 today? \ 13 A. No. 14 Q. Now in 1965 you were still at 15 Krummrich, is that correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. When you were at Krummrich, was it 18 your practice in preparing letters to make a 19 carbon copy of the letter that would not perhaps 20 be on letterhead or to retain a copy of a letter 21 that would not perhaps be on letterhead? 22 A. I don't recall. 23 Q. If you could flip over to the second 24 page right below and to the left of where the >25 signature line is there's a /GS, do you see that? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007370 Page 13 _______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you know who GS might be? 3 A. Might be my secretary. 4 Q. Did you have a secretary with those 5 initials? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Who was that? 8 A. I don't know, I really don't 9 remember the initials. I had several secretaries, 10 those initials don't mean anything to me. I had a 11 lot of secretaries, I didn't have a private one, I 12 used one in the group and they changed frequently. 13 Q. Do you have any recollection of 14 whether you ever had a secretary with the initials 15 GS? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Now on the copy of this letter that 18 we're looking at, it's hard to tell whether 19 there's a signature on this letter or not. Can 20 you identify the signature on this letter? 21 A. No. It doesn't look like there is 22 any, just some marks there. 23 Q. Was it your practice in 1965 when 24 you were doing letters to people outside the 9.5 company to prepare those letters on Monsanto TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7371 Page 14 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94_________:___________________ , 1 letterhead? 2 A. Normally, as far as I recall. 3 Q. Now the letter that we're looking 4 at, Hodges 15 is not on letterhead, do you see 5 that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you have any explanation as to 8 why there may exist a copy of a letter that 9 appears to be prepared by you that is not on 10 Monsanto letterhead? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you recall whether, for instance, 13 at this time period you were using carbon paper to 14 keep file copies of letters? 15 A. I'm sure there were. 16 Q. Do you know if the carbon paper at 17 times did not have the Monsanto letterhead on it? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. As you look at this letter sitting 20 here today, do you have any reason to believe that 21 this is not a letter that you prepared in December 22 of 1965? 23 A. No. 24 Q. There are a number of numbered 25 paragraphs on the first page of Hodges 15, do you TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7372 Page 15 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ , 1 see that? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Let me go back, in the introductory 4 paragraph there's an indication that the 5 Engineering Department has reviewed the drawings 6 and specifications of the sewer and pumping 7 station as prepared by Horner & Shifrin, the 8 design looks good, generally. 9 A. Yes. Do you see that? 10 Q. Do you have any recollection of 11 reviewing the drawings and specifications with 12 respect to the subject matter of this letter? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Do you have any recollection of the 15 Monsanto Engineering Department reviewing those 16 specifications? 17 A. No. 18 Q. The Engineering Department referred 19 to in this letter would be Central Engineering. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. That's the general offices. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you know if Mr. Kasky was still 24 in Central Engineering in 1965? 25 A. I don't remember. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007373 _______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94________________________ 16 1 Q. How about Mr. Stutz? 2 A. I think -- I don't remember, it must 3 have been somewhere around the time that he left. 4 Q. Do you have any recollection of what 5 the Dead Creek Interceptor Sewer is, as referred 6 to in the subject line of this letter? 7 A. I don't recall, no. 8 Q. In the first numbered paragraph of 9 this letter, there is a discussion of concrete and 10 steel bar screen potentially suffering attack if 11 exposed to acidic waste for a considerable period 12 of time, do you see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you know what concrete and steel 15 bar screen you're discussing in this letter? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Do you know if Cerro's discharge to 18 the sewer at this point in time contained acidic 19 waste? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Do you know if Monsanto's discharge 22 to the Village Sewer System during this period of 23 time contained acidic waste? 24 A. Yes. Q. And did it? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7374 Page 17 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 A. Yes, it did. 2 Q. Was one of the sources of acidic 3 waste Department 246 -- one of the sources of 4 acidic waste into the Village, Department 246? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Do you know any other departments 7 that were putting acidic waste into the Village 8 Sewer System in 1965? 9 A. No. Chlorobenzenes, I know most of 10 that was recovered, but there certainly could have 11 been acidic waste from there, probably others, but 12 I can't recall. 13 Q. Benzylchloride? 14 A. Oh yes, Benzylchloride. 15 Q. Are you familiar with the department 16 phosphate esters? 17 A. No. 18 Q. In the second paragraph of this 19 letter you discussed that minimum head loss when 20 wastes are flowing south into Dead Creek is 21 desirable, do you see that? 22 A. 23 Q. 24 refers to? 25 A. Yes. Do know what the term head loss Yes, it's the losses that as the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007375 Page 18 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 liquid passes through pipes or around turns it 2 requires a head to force it through. There's a 3 resistance in pipes and turns, so you need an 4 elevated head to make it go. 5 Q. There's a statement that the chamber 6 as designed will force the water to turn 90 7 degrees to flow out through the bar screens, do 8 you see that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Would that type of turn result in a 11 head loss? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you know why Monsanto was 14 concerned with head loss of waste flowing south 15 into Dead Creek in December of 1965? 16 A. No, not specifically. Obviously it 17 was to reduce any flooding problems. 18 Q. Flooding at Monsanto? 19 A. Yes. But I don't know any specifics 20 on it. 21 Q. Do you recall whether Mr. Goldenberg 22 responded in any way to this letter? 23 A. I don't recall. 24 Q. Do you know if Horner & Shifrin ever 25 responded in any way to this letter? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007376 Page 19 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 A. I don't recall. 2 Q. Mr. Hodges, I would like to go back 3 for a second to a document that we talked about 4 yesterday which is Hodges 123 and these are the 5 June 14th -- I've got it here. These are the June 6 14th, 1965 meeting minutes that you authored. 7 A. Uh-huh. 8 Q. Turn if you could to page two of the 9 document, and just review for a second the 10 numbered paragraph down at the bottom. 11 A. I see it. 12 Q. There's a reference in there to 13 Sauget's dump, do you see that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you know what Sauget's dump is? 16 A. One operated by the Mayor of 17 Monsanto Village, and it was used by the 18 industries and maybe other people, too. 19 Q. Do you know where it was located? 20 A. I don't recall. It was some place 21 in the Village. 22 Q. Do you recall if it was near Dead 23 Creek? 24 A. I don't recall. 25 Q. Did Monsanto use Sauget's dump? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7377 Page 20 _______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________ s_________ 1 A. I assume that we did, but I don't 2 recall. 3 Q. Do you know if there was more than 4 one dump operated by Mr. Sauget in the Village? 5 A. I don't remember that, there could 6 very well have been. 7 Q. Do you know why Sauget's dump might 8 be relevant to a discussion of Dead Creek? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Mr. Hodges, let me show you a 11 document that's been marked as Hodges 16, for 12 identification purposes. This is a document that 13 was produced to us by the Village of Sauget, we've 14 given it Bates Number VS0541 and ask you to take a 15 look at that. 16 A. How much am I supposed to look at? 17 Q. I'll ask you a few questions and 18 then we can decide. Have you ever seen this 19 report before? 20 A. Not that I remember. 21 Q. Do you know who is Monsanto Biodize 22 Systems, Inc? 23 A. Monsanto set up a waste treatment 24 division called by Biodize. 25 Q. What was their business? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007378 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 21 1 A. 2 companies. 3 Q. 4 as well? 5 A. Designing waste treatment for Did they do work for municipalities, I think so, yes. 6 Q. Were you aware that Monsanto Biodize 7 did any work for the Village of Sauget? 8 A. I don't recall it. 9 Q. In December of 1970, did you have 10 any responsibilities with respect to the Village 11 of Sauget Sewer System? 12 A. Not specific. 13 Q. You were at the general offices in 14 1970, is that correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You were, I take it, no longer the 17 liaison between the Krummrich facility and the 18 Village? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Do you recall having anyinvolvement 21 in the water pollution abatement program that's 22 the subject of this report? 23 A. Not in detail. 24 Q. Do you recall anyinvolvement at 25 all? Would you have to look at the report more TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7379 Page 22 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 closely to answer the question? 2 A. The specific thing, I remember 3 nothing about it, this is flow measurements and I 4 didn't have anything to do with it. 5 Q. Are you familiar with a company by 6 the name of Monsanto Envirochem Systems, Inc.? 7 A. Well, I'm sorry I thought that was 8 Biodize. I may be mistaken about it, but I 9 thought that Biodize was our environmental outfit 10 or maybe they changed the name, I don't know. 11 Q. Does the name Monsanto Envirochem 12 ring a bell with you? 13 A. About the same as Biodize, as I 14 recall, it must have been the same outfit. Okay. 15 I think I can clarify that. Biodize was some 16 system that we bought from, that the Envirochem 17 outfit bought from some outfit. My recollection 18 of it is, is that it was a black box deal which we 19 very quickly eliminated. It was an unfortunate 20 purchase by Monsanto. We thought we were getting 21 something good and we got nothing. 22 Q. So Envirochem was a company formed 23 by Monsanto? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. They acquired Biodize and changed TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007380 Ps.^6 2 3 ________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 the name to Monsanto Biodize. 2 A. Yes. It was not one of our better 3 ventures. 4 Q. Mr. Hodges in 1969 you were working 5 at the general offices, is that correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. And if you could refresh my $ recollection as to what your title was. 9 A. It was manager of Environmental 10 Products. 11 Q. I believe you testified yesterday 12 that in your role as Manager - 13 A. I'm sorry, for the Organic Division, 14 put it that way. 15 Q. Were there other divisions that also 16 had managers of environmental protection? 17 A. Yes, or something similar. Maybe it 18 had a different title. 19 Q. Yesterday you testified that in your 20 role as Manager of Environmental Protection you 21 had some involvement in the PCB reduction plan. 22 A. That's right. 23 Q. That was implemented at the 24 Krummrich facility, is that correct? 25 A. Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007381 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94________________________ 24 1 Q. Can you tell me why that program 2 began? 3 4 5 A. The history of it? Q. Yes. A. Okay. Out in California some 6 researcher found that bird eggs were soft, these 7 were wild birds of some sort, and he apparently 8 traced the problem down to PCBs that the birds 9 were getting from fish that they ate. To the best 10 of my knowledge, that's the first inkling that we 11 had that there was a problem. 12 Q. Do you know how that research came 13 to the attention of anyone at Monsanto? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Do you know - 16 A. That probably came through our 17 medical department. 18 Q. Do you know how it first came to 19 your attention? 20 A. I was told about it. 21 Q. What was the company's reaction to 22 that information? 23 A. At that time? 24 Q. Right. ,25 A. We didn't believe it. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007382 P3.^6 2 5 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 Q. Did you take any steps in response 2 to this report? 3 A. Oh yes, they did. 4 Q. What steps were taken, just in 5 general terms? 6 A. Well, a little later this committee 7 was formed to deal with the problem as we saw it 8 developing. The first thing was to review the 9 analytical techniques because at that particular 10 time, ability to measure down in parts per billion 11 was still pretty fuzzy, and I think that we 12 probably got in and checked out the analytical 13 techniques that they used, and that took some 14 period of time. 15 Q. Were you involved in those efforts? 16 A. No, not specifically. 17 Q. Were you kept apprised of progress 18 that was being made in that regard? 19 A. In general, yes. 20 Q. What other steps did the company 21 take in response to this report? 22 A. Well, we, of course, we tried to 23 immediately -- well first of all, I think we 24 decided along, someplace along the line that it 25 was factual, then we sought to reduce any losses TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7383 Page 26 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 of PCBs to the environment, and to study the 2 affect of PCBs on the environment. Our previous 3 feeling was that PCBs were entirely inert. 4 Q. Why was that? 5 A. The nature of the PCBs, they are 6 inert. 7 Q. What do you mean by inert? 8 A. They don't degrade out in the 9 atmosphere, in general, this was why they were 10 good for their uses. They were very stable. 11 Q. Were you aware that a program was 12 implemented at the Krummrich facility for the 13 reduction of PCBs into the atmosphere? i 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did you have any role or 16 responsibility in that program? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What was it in general terms? 19 A. I ordered it with our other PCB 20 producing facilities. 21 Q. Once you gave the order? 22 A. Maybe I should say I requested it. 23 Q. Once you made the request, did you 24 have any continuing involvement in the program? 25 A. Yes, I received progress reports. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007384 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 27 1 Q. Any hands-on involvement? 2 A. What? 3 Q. Hands-on involvement. Did you 4 review the progress reports and react to them? 5 A. I don't recall. I assume that I 6 did. 7 Q. Did you have to get approval from 8 any of your superiors before you ordered or 9 requested this PCB reduction program? 10 A. This was in line with the group that 11 was set up to handle the problem, and it included 12 my superiors and other people through the 13 organization. 14 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 15 Exhibit 17 was marked for identification by the 16 Court Reporter.) 17 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 18 show you a document that has been marked as Hodges 19 17 for identification purposes and ask you to take 20 a look at it. 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. This is a document with Bates Number 23 CER 010901. Have you ever seen this document 24 before, Mr. Hodges? 25 A. Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7385 Page 28 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 Q. Is that your signature on the second 2 page of this document? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Is this a document that you reviewed 5 in preparation for your deposition here today? 6 A. I don't think so. It's a document 7 that I was involved in in another action that came 8 up. Frankly, I had completely forgotten this 9 whole mess, it was a loser for Monsanto and that 10 wasn't one of the things that I recall from my 11 working career but yes, I have seen that before. 12 Q. I take it your recollection has been 13 somewhat refreshed in this regard. 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. In the first paragraph of this 16 memorandum that we've marked as Hodges 17 you 17 indicate that "we should begin to protect 18 ourselves", do you see that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you know what you meant by that 21 protecting ourselves? 22 A. The problem had arisen and it looked 23 like it might have severe conseguences for 24 Monsanto and we needed to take what actions we ,25 could to handle it. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007386 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 29 1 Q. What kind of consequences were you 2 concerned about? 3 A. Shut down of PCBs, bad publicity. 4 Q. Were PCBs a profitable product for 5 Monsanto? 6 A. I have no details on it, but I'm 7 sure that it was. 8 Q. You indicate that since the problem 9 is not yet defined, you're recommending only 10 action preparatory only to actual clean up, do you 11 see that? 12 A. That's right. Well any kind of 13 clean-up arrangements, you get the facts first so 14 you can define the problem. 15 Q. And so, at this stage you were still 16 trying to define the problem. 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. In defining the problem, are you 19 referring to the problem created by PCBs in the 20 environment or the problem of Monsanto getting bad 21 publicity? 22 A. Neither one. It's the problem of 23 how much PCBs are there. 24 Q. How much PCBs are where? 25 A. From the effluent from the plant. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007387 Page 30 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 Q. When you say define the problem, 2 you're talking about the extent to which the 3 company is discharging PCBs? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you have any information on that 6 issue prior to this time? 7 A. No. I don't believe so. I don't 8 recall, but I don't think so. 9 Q. Do you know if any information had 10 been developed in that regard, for instance in 11 performing material balances? 12 A. I don't recall. 13 Q. PCBs were a valuable product to 14 Monsanto, weren't they? 15 A. Yeah, I think so. 16 Q. As part of maintaining an efficient 17 production operation, was it Monsanto's practice 18 to evaluate whether it was losing any of its 19 product to the atmosphere? 20 A. If we thought there was a problem. 21 Q. Do you know if any -- do you know if 22 any such evaluation was ever made with respect to 23 PCBs? 24 A. To the atmosphere? 25 Q. Right. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7388 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 31 1 A. No. 2 Q. During the time that you were 3 involved in production in Department 246, were you 4 ever involved in any material balance analyses of 5 production in that Department? 6 A. Well we calculated yields on raw 7 materials monthly, and it was part of my job to 8 see that those yields were up to standard or 9 better. 10 Q. Do you know what standard 11 performance was measured by? 12 A. What we should get from a given 13 amount of raw material. 14 Q. Did you view, was it your standard 15 that you should get a hundred percent yield from 16 the raw materials or did you allow some, for some 17 loss to the environment? 18 A. All of those processes, none of them 19 had 100 percent yields for the various reasons. 20 Q. Do you know how the yield figures or 21 the target yield figures were developed? 22 A. Probably by research initially and 23 then experience over a period of time. 24 Q. Do you know what the yield targets 25 were for Department 246? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007389 Page 32 _______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 A. I don't recall. 2 Q. Do you recall if Department 246 was 3 meeting it's yield targets during the time that 4 you were involved in production? 5 A. I don't recall that either. I 6 probably did or I would have been sharply brought 7 up on it. $ Q. But you don't recall being sharply 9 brought up on it. 10 A. No, no. 11 Q. Do you know if in developing yield 12 or yield targets there was some allowance made for 13 discharges to the atmosphere or discharges to the 14 sewer? 15 A. I don't think it was calculated in 16 that way, it was calculated in what our experience 17 was in what we got out of the raw materials that 18 we used. 19 Q. So if production historically 20 involved loss of some product to the sewers those 21 losses would, in effect, be incorporated into the 22 calculation of the yields? 23 A. Yes, that's correct. 24 Q. Now yesterday, when we were talking 25 about the Phenol Reduction Program, you used the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007390 Page 33 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 phrase tightening up, which was just stopping 2 leaks, making sure your pump packings were in good 3 condition, things like that, is that correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. At this point, though, you did not 6 even recommend tightening up in the PCB operation, 7 is that correct? 8 A. I did not recommend it, the two 9 operations were greatly different in that respect. 10 Q. How so? 11 A. If we had a pump pipe leaking in the 12 Arochlor Department it was promptly taken care of, 13 they were not so careful in the Phenol Department 14 where they had hundreds of pumps. 15 Q. They had more pumps in the Phenol 16 Department than they did in Arochlor. 17 A. Oh certainly, it was much more 18 complicated and much bigger. 19 Q. In the second paragraph under number 20 1 on the first page of Hodges 17 there's a 21 discussion of dropping spent Arochlor from P2S5 22 heat exchanger at W.G. Krummrich, do you see that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Do you recall what that reference is 25 to? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7391 Page 34 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ , 1 A. No. 2 Q. Do you know what P2S5 is? 3 A. It's a sulfite of some kind, I don't 4 remember what it was. 5 Q. Sulfurous pesticide? 6 A. I believe so. 7 Q. Do you recall that was a product 8 being moved at Krummrich? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you recall there being a practice 11 in that Department to drop spent Arochlors from a 12 heat exchanger into the sewers? 13 A. I don't recall it. It's spelled out 14 here, but I do not recall it. 15 Q. Could you identify the location of 16 the P2S5 Department on any of the maps that I've 17 shown you during the course of this deposition? 18 A. Certainly not from memory. 19 Q. You don't recall the department 20 number? 21 A. No. 22 Q. So you don't have any recollection 23 at all of the sewering of spent Arochlors from the 24 P2S5 heat exchanger? A. Huh-uh. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007392 Page 35 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 Q. Now I note that this memo is 2 directed to Mr. Buckley at Krummrich, do you see 3 that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Do you think he would be a good 6 person to talk to about spent off Arochlors for 7 the P2S5 heat exchangers. 8 A. If you wish, he's probably as 9 knowledgeable as anyone, he was essentially taking 10 over much of my duties. I guess Mike Pierle was 11 probably gone at that time, but I'm not sure. 12 Q. In paragraph number 2, you talk 13 about collecting samples and data points and then 14 say this information will help permit us to move 15 rapidly in case a crisis develops. Do you see 16 that? 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. What kind of crises were you 19 anticipating in this memorandum? 20 A. There was a real crack down on PCBs, 21 suddenly. 22 Q. Government crack down? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. On the second page of this memo in 25 paragraph number 3, there is a further discussion TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7393 Page 36 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 of sewering spent Arochlor from P2S5, do you see 2 that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And then you talk about from 5 'standpoints of possible sewer pluggage plus gummy 6 hard-to-handle solids collected at the waste 7 treatment plant, present practice is poor." Do 8 you know whether the sewering of spent Arochlors 9 in fact could contribute to sewer pluggage? 10 A. I don't recall. I made the 11 statement here, and I assume that it did at that 12 t ime. 13 Q. Do you know what the consistencies 14 of a spent heat exchanger, spent PCB heat exchange 15 fluid would be? 16 A. It would be, tend to be gummy. 17 Q. Thick? 18 A. Depending on what it was, I mean, 19 the Arochlors varied in their thickness all the 20 way from solid material to guite viscous 21 materials. 22 Q. Do you know where the heat exchanged 23 fluids fell on that continuum? 24 A. Perhaps. No, probably in the metal. Q. Did spent heat exchange fluids have TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7394 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 37 1 different consistencies than new heat exchange 2 fluids? 3 A. I don't know, I doubt it. 4 Q. Do you know what happens to a heat 5 exchanged fluid to make it spent? 6 A. No. 7 Q. There were heat exchange fluids used $ in the Department 246, weren't there? 9 A. I'm trying to recall and I'm not 10 sure that there were. 11 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 12 Exhibit 18 was marked for identification by the 13 Court Reporter.) 14 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 15 show you a document that's been marked as 16 Plaintiff's Exhibit 18 for identification 17 purposes, this is a document with Bates Number CER 18 011109. Can you review first the distribution 19 list for this memo? 20 A. Well, which part, all of it? 21 Q. I'm referring now to the people? 22 A. It's mostly internal to the 23 Krummrich plant. 24 Q. That was really my question. 25 A. Mostly. I'll check Molloy, well I TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007395 Page 38 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 don't know where he was. And I don't think Jerry 2 Bratsch was, he may have been Plant Manager or 3 head of maintenance, I don't remember which. But 4 any way, it's essentially an internal document. 5 I'm the only one in the general offices that got 6 it. 7 Q. Everybody else on this memo is at 8 Krummrich, but yourself? 9 A. As far as I can see. 10 Q. There is a proposal in the middle of 11 the first page of this document with respect to 12 sampling sewers and outfalls and upstream and 13 downstream river waters and sludge from the river 14 and treatment plant, do you see that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you have any involvement in the 17 development of these sampling locations? 18 A. No, not specifically. Just 19 compliance with my request for them to get the 20 facts. 21 Q. So you basically told them to get 22 the facts and left to them what they had to do to 23 comply with that? 24 A. Oh, yes. 25 Q. Do you know if you had any contacts TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7396 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 39 1 with Mr. Buckley to assist him in determining 2 where he should be sampling? 3 A. I don't recall. There may very well 4 have been some telephone conversations, but I 5 don't remember. 6 Q. Paragraph two talks about 7 discontinuing sewering spent Arochlors within the 8 plant, do you see that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. That appears to be a reference to, 11 for instance, the sewering of the heat exchanged 12 fluids from P2S5. Do you know whether there were 13 other departments at Krummrich that sewer spent 14 Arochlors? 15 A. I don't recall. 16 Q. Paragraph three appears to be some 17 of the tightening up kind of activities that we 18 discussed with respect to the Phenol reduction 19 program, is that a fair statement? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did you approve those tightening up 22 activities at this time? 23 A. I don't recall. I assume that I 24 did. 25 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7397 Page 40 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 Exhibit 19 was marked for identification by the 2 Court Reporter.) 3 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 4 show you a document that's been marked as Hodges 5 19, has Bates number CER 011119, and ask you to 6 take a look at that. I won't be asking you any 7 questions about Anniston, by the way. 8 A. Yes, I've looked at it. 9 Q. Is that your signature on the last 10 page of the document? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you know who ACD is? 13 A. No, apparently it is my secretary. 14 Q. On the first page of the document 15 you talk about not undertaking any expensive 16 projects until you know what levels of PCBs exist 17 in the receiving waters, do you see that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What did you consider the receiving 20 waters for the Krummrich facility to be? 21 A. Sewers, I suppose the outfalls of 22 the river. 23 Q. Did you ever consider Dead Creek as 24 a potential receiving water of PCBs from the 25 Krummrich facility? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007398 ___________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94________________________ 41 1 A. Not to my knowledge. 2 Q. Do you know why that was? 3 A. No, I don't really. I didn't think 4 it was very likely that the PCBs would move into 5 Dead Creek, that was an overflow thing, the PCBs 6 were heavier, it would tend to stay in the bottom 7 of the sewers. 8 Q. In the second paragraph on the first 9 page there's a reference to Dr. Tucker. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Who was that? 12 A. He was a research man in our 13 Research Department. 14 Q. General Offices? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you know what his involvement in 17 this endeavor was? 18 A. As spelled out he was called into 19 develop these techniques for measurement. 20 Q. There's a reference to manpower and 21 equipment priority problems, do you see that? 22 A. 23 Q. 24 are about? Yes. Do you know what those references A. No. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7399 Page 42 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 Q. Do you know how, or who was 2 responsible for prioritizing allocation of 3 manpower and equipment to PCB reduction or PCB 4 investigation? 5 A. I don't know, it wouldn't have been 6 anybody, specifically. 7 joint effort. I think it may have been a 8 Q. Joint effort involving whom? 9 A. Of the laboratory people in the 10 plant, and the environmental people, and perhaps 11 even the business group. 12 Q. How high up the chain of command 13 would one have to go to resolve these kinds of 14 priority problems? 15 A. I don't recall. 16 Q. On the second page under paragraph 17 A-1, just take a look at that for a second. There 18 is a discussion of recent improvements in the 19 chlorinator off-gas cooling plus Brink mist 20 eliminators. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you know how recently those 23 improvements had been installed? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Do you have any recollection at all? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007400 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 43 1 Was it five years? Was it twenty years? 2 A. No, it wasn't twenty years because 3 the Brink mist eliminators hadn't been around that 4 long. 5 Q. Do you know how long they had been 6 around? 7 A. No, but it certainly wasn't 20 8 years. 9 Q. Do you recall if, when you were 10 involved with production in Department 246 there 11 were Brink mist eliminators in that Department? 12 A. I don't remember. 13 Q. Do you know whether the off-gas from 14 Department 246 chlorinators was cooled during the 15 time that you were involved in production in 16 Department 246? 17 A. I don't remember that, no. 18 Q. Do you recall any devices that were 19 in place during the time that you were involved in 20 production in Department 246 that was designed to 21 remove organics from the HCl off-gas? 22 A. I don't recall. 23 Q. There's a statement in this memo 24 that, as a result of these recent improvements, 25 there's no longer any free Arochlor in the HCl TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007401 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 44 1 off-gas which comes out in catch pots? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you know what the catch pots are? 4 A. I don't remember, but I assume they 5 were in the off-gas line there, and probably a 6 place for material to drop out. 7 Q. Did you learn that the devices 8 discussed in this paragraph did not, in fact, 9 totally eliminate the Arochlors that were coming 10 off the chlorinator and the off-gas? 11 A. I don't recall, but it very 12 pointedly says that the catch pots never require 13 draining. 14 Q. What does that mean to you? 15 A. That means that the Brink mist 16 eliminators caught all the free material going in 17 the off-gas. They were, the Brink mist 18 eliminators were very efficient in that respect. 19 Q. I'm eliminating what's referred to 20 here as the free Arochlor, does that eliminate the 21 potential for any Arochlor being in the off-gas? 22 A. I don't know. It certainly, if 23 there's any dissolved in the off-gas, which I 24 question there would be, vapor pressure Arochlors 25 is very low, and it should not -- there shouldn't TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007402 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 45 1 be any significant amount in the off-gas. 2 Q. Do you recall having any problems 3 with Arochlors getting into the sewers through the 4 off-gas subsequent to the date of this memo which 5 is May 12, 1969? 6 A. No. 7 Q. You don't recall having any 8 problems? 9 A. No, I was not personally involved in 10 it. 11 Q. In your oversight of the PCB 12 reduction program, was there ever identified to 13 you PCBs getting into the sewers through the off 14 gas subsequent to the date of this memo? 15 A. I don't recall. 16 Q. You state that there is no longer 17 any free Arochlor in the HC1 off-gas which comes 18 out in the catch pots, and then you say, at one 19 time this was considerable, and you underline 20 considerable. Do you know how considerable the 21 free Arochlor in the HC1 off-gas was prior to the 22 time these improvements were made? 23 A. No, I don't. 24 Q. Do you have any recollection of the 25 extent to which free Arochlors were discharged to TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007403 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 46 1 the sewers with the off-gas during the time you 2 were involved in production in Department 246? 3 A. I don't recall anything. 4 Q. Do you know why you underlined the 5 word considerable in this memo? 6 A. At that time I must have had some 7 knowledge that it was, I had been Department 8 Supervisor. 9 Q. The second paragraph opens with the 10 sentence, the only sewered source of loss of 11 significance is from leaks, spills, pump packing 12 glands, et cetera. Did you ever learn that that 13 was not in fact the case and that there were other 14 sources of significant PCB losses to the sewers? 15 A. Now we're talking about from the 16 Arochlors Production Department. 17 Q. Right. 18 A. I don't recall any such thing. I 19 might add it would have been very low amounts. We 20 had no techniques for measuring it at that time. 21 Q. How sensitive were the analytical 22 procedures at this time? 23 A. I don't recall, but throughout the 24 chemical industry we were really tightening down 25 on those analytical procedures with the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007404 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94________________________ 4? 1 development of new equipment and so forth. We 2 went from being proud to measure parts per 3 million, to doing parts per billion, and that was 4 just part of the overall progress in the chemical 5 industry. 6 Q. And that process was evolving at 7 this time, in 1969? 8 A. Yes. It may still be evolving. 9 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 10 Exhibit 20-Hodges was marked for identification by 11 the Court Reporter.) 12 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges let me 13 show you a document that's been marked Plaintiff's 14 Exhibit 20, this is a document with Bates Number 15 CER 011292, and I would ask that you take a look 16 at it. Mr. Hodges, what was the Arochlor Ad Hoc 17 Committee? 18 A. A group, sort of informally set up 19 to handle the developing problem of PCBs. 20 Q. Were you a member of that committee? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Were the other individuals listed on 23 Hodges 20 members of that committee? 24 A. As I remember. 25 Q. Can you just go down the list and TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007405 Page 48 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94_________________________ 1 identify those individuals for me? 2 A. Farrar was in the Research 3 Organization. 4 Q. When you say in the Research 5 Organization? 6 A. Yeah, of Monsanto. 7 Q. Organics Division? 8 A. No, I don't think we broke research 9 down by division. We may have, I don't think so. 10 I think he was just in the Research Department of 11 Monsanto. 12 Q. What was his first name? 13 A. What was the question? 14 Q. What was his first name? 15 A. I don't recall. 16 Q. Okay. The next one is yourself. 17 A. Yes. Next was Ed John and he had to 18 do with Public Relations. 19 Q. Was he also in the General Offices? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. Next is? 22 A. And then Bill Richard. I think -- I 23 don't know, but I think he was research. 24 Q. How about - 25 A. Elmer Wheeler was in our medical TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007406 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94________________________ ** 1 department. 2 Q. Was he a doctor? 3 A. I don't think so. 4 Q. Okay. Do you know if any of those 5 individuals are still with the company? 6 A. I don't know. Farrar and Wheeler 7 were somewhere around my age or older, so I'm sure 8 they're gone, I don't know about Ed John and Bill 9 Richard. 10 Q. I believe that earlier in the 11 deposition I had asked you about what approval, if 12 any, you needed to get in order or request a PCB 13 reduction program. Do you remember that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And I believe in answering that 16 question you referred to a committee that was 17 formed, is that a fair statement? 18 A. I think so. I may have moved it. 19 I'm sure I moved ahead of the formation of this 20 committee. 21 Q. Let me - 22 A. Probably had one of my bosses okay 23 on it. 24 Q. None of these individuals on this ir committee were your boss, is that right? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007407 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 50 1 A. Right. 2 Q. Your boss was Mr. Hosmer. 3 A. That's right. 4 Q. Do you know if you had to get Mr. 5 Hosmer's approval to implement the PCB Reduction 6 Program? 7 A. I probably told him about it. 8 Q. For information or for approval? 9 A. Well, give him a chance to 10 disapprove. 11 Q. Do you know whether -- what was Mr. 12 Hosmer's title again, at this time? 13 A. I'm not certain. I think he was 14 technical production -- let's see, technical 15 Production Manager of the Organic Division. Now I 16 may be incorrect on that. 17 Q. Do you know who he reported to? 18 A. I don't remember who it was 19 specifically at that time, but he reported to, it 20 was production, I guess Production Manager of the 21 Organic Division, that was the title, and that 22 could have been Fred Holzapfel, and it could have 23 been Bob Zonden, those are the ones that I 24 remember. Q. Do you know if any approvals were TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007408 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 51 1 required above Mr. Hosmer in order to implement 2 the PCB Reduction Program? 3 A. Well, on the individual projects 4 that came through, there was an orderly system for 5 approval. If the amount was large, I think it 6 went to somebody in the business group. 7 Q. Were you in the business group? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Was Mr. Hosmer in the business 10 group? 11 A. No. 12 Q. What was the business group? 13 A. These were people working with 14 specific chemical like Phenol, there was some 15 group that had Phenols as their responsibility, 16 another business group that dealt with PCBs, 17 people that were involved in sales and 18 administration, generally. 19 Q. They were the ones that had to 20 approve capital expenditures. 21 A. Of any consequence. 22 Q. 23 was for? 24 A. 25 Q. Do you know what the upset figure No. Capital expenditures going through TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007409 Page 52 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ i 1 the business group? 2 A No, no. 3 Q. Did the plant level people have 4 authority for any capital expenditures at any 5 level? 6 A. Small, I'm sure. 7 Q. But you can't - 8 A. But I don't know thefigure. 9 Q. You can't define what small is or in 10 any way refine? 11 A. No, I don't remember. 12 Q. Do you know how high up in the chain 13 of command was made aware of this potential 14 problem with PCBs in the environment? 15 A. I don't recall, but I assume it got 16 to the top level management in Monsanto. 17 Q. Referring back to Hodges 20, there 18 are first listed some objectives of the committee. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you see that? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. The first objective is to permit the 23 continued sales and profit of Arochlors and 24 Terphenyls? A. Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007410 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 53 1 Q. What are Terphenyls? 2 A. I don't recall. I think it's 3 perhaps a mixture of Arochlors and something else, 4 but I don't remember. 5 Q. The next objective is to permit the 6 continued development of uses and sales, is that 7 correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. Can I understand from that, that at 10 this point in time Monsanto is still interested in 11 expanding its PCB business? 12 A. Apparently, I mean that's what it 13 says . 14 Q. Is that consistent with your 15 recollection of Monsanto's attitude at the time? 16 A. I think that's probably correct. 17 You understand we had not defined the problem at 18 that time. 19 Q. Was one of the objectives of this 20 committee to define the problem? 21 A. Oh, I'm sure it was a more specific 22 objective, but these overall objectives were it, 23 and defining a problem fitted in there. 24 Q. One of the objectives was to protect 25 the image of the Organic Division and of the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7411 Page 54 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ , X corporation? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. What steps were taken to further 4 that objective? 5 A. Well, over all, overall program was 6 designed to do that, find out what the facts were 7 and what we could do, and how much of a problem it 8 really was. We were -- did not appreciate having 9 Monsanto painted as environmentally irresponsible, 10 and we were not. 11 Q. In the background discussion of the 12 problem under paragraph one you state that 13 Arochlor 1242 has not yet been incriminated. Do 14 you know what you mean by that? 15 A. Apparently it has not been found in 16 any of these studies that were being done. 17 Q. The bird egg studies and things like 18 that? 19 A. I'm assuming that, yes. 20 Q. And then you list some possible 21 reasons why that is and one of the reasons is the 22 nature of the uses of 1242. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What were you referring to there? 25 What was the nature of the uses of 1242 that TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7412 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 55 1 minimized the environmental contamination? 2 A. I don't remember. 3 Q. Under paragraph B you state, it may 4 degrade biologically, do you see that? 5 A. Yes, we didn't know at that time. 6 Q. Why did you suspect that it might 7 degrade biologically? 8 A. Because it was lower chlorinated. 9 Q. The lower the chlorination the more 10 likely it would biodegrade. 11 A. That's reasonable. 12 Q. Do you know what it would biodegrade 13 into? 14 A. Nothing much, probably break down 15 into little salt, and some, perhaps, C02, and H20. 16 Q. Would it biodegrade from a higher 17 Arochlor into a lower Arochlor? 18 A. I don't know, I doubt it. 19 Q. The third possible reason for 1242 20 not yet being incriminated is that it could be 21 destroyed by oxygenation depending on the 22 analytical technique, what do you mean by that? 23 A. I don't remember the specifics of 24 it, but apparently there must have been some high 25 temperature handling in the analytical technique TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7413 Page 56 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 or oxidation by something. And 1242 logically can 2 be more easily destroyed by oxidation than the 3 higher Arochlors. 4 Q. On the second page under paragraph 6 5 there's a discussion of the Escambia River 6 problem, and some samples that had been taken from 7 river water and mud. 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. Where is the Escambia River? 10 A. Down off of Pensacola, as I recall. 11 Q. Can I understand from this memo that 12 laboratory techniques had been developed by this = 13 time to identify PCBs in environmental medium to 14 the parts per billion level? 15 A. I don't know. We didn't have it at 16 Monsanto and there were maybe independent 17 researchers out there that had a method or thought 18 they had a method. 19 Q. Do you know who was doing this 20 sampling? 21 A. No. 22 Q. At the Escambia River? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you take any steps to avail yourselves of the sampling technique that had been TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7414 Page 57 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 employed in this particular sampling? 2 A. I don't recall, this would have been 3 up to the Research Department in developing this 4 method. 5 Q. Was there anybody in this ad hoc 6 committee who was responsible for interfacing with 7 the Research Department on sampling techniques? 8 A. They are Bill Richard or Farrar. I 9 don't recall which. 10 Q. On page three of the memo, the third 11 paragraph, there is a discussion of air pollution 12 reduction. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You did not believe PCB air 15 pollution was a significant problem at this point 16 in time. 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Did you ever discover that losses of 19 PCBs to the air did, in fact, occur? 20 A. I don't recall. I can assume that 21 we did check for it later. 22 Q. Do you recall whether any steps were 23 ever taken at Krummrich to reduce air discharges 24 of PCBs? ?.* A. I don't recall. It shouldn't have TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7415 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 58 1 been very much because the vapor pressure was very 2 low. 3 Q. Under paragraph under number 8 the 4 second paragraph, there's a statement that the 5 rate of natural biodegradation of PCBs is very 6 low, and underlined, and very low is underlined, 7 do you see that? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Was that a fact that had been 10 confirmed by Monsanto as of September of 1969? 11 A. I don't recall, or whether we just 12 assumed it, I don't know. We entered, from other 13 correspondence I've seen, we entered into a lot of 14 degradation studies, and what the status was at 15 that time, I don't recall. 16 Q. Do you recall what the results of 17 these biodegradation studies were? 18 A. Not really. 19 Q. Do you know if they confirmed the 20 biodegradation of PCBs was very low? 21 A. I don't recall, but I think they 22 did. 23 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 24 Exhibit 21 was marked for identification by the 7* Court Reporter.) TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7416 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 1 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 2 show you Hodges 21 for identification, this is a 3 document with CER 010897, and I would ask you to 4 take a look at that. I don't have a lot of 5 questions on this document, so maybe I can just 6 ask you some questions and if you need to refer to 7 it to give me the answers you can. This was a 8 document that you apparently are copied on, is 9 that correct? 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. Who is Mr. Bigge? 12 MR. HEINEMAN: We covered that i 13 yesterday. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 15 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Did he recall 16 yesterday? 17 MR. HEINEMAN: No. 18 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) How about Mr. 19 McCutchan? 20 A. I don't recall that name either. 21 Q. There are some recommendations for 22 changes to be made in the Arochlor department in 23 this memo, and my question to you is whether you 24 had any involvement in the development of these recommendations? Page 59 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7417 Page 60 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94____________________________ 1 A. No, not specifically. 2 Q. This was just another example of 3 your giving a general order and these are the 4 plant people following through on it? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. On the second page under the 7 signature line, it identifies Barton L. Bigge, 8 Mechanical Design Group, does that refresh your 9 recollection at all as to Mr. Bigge? 10 A. I don't know him. 11 Q. What was the Mechanical Design 12 Group? 13 A. I'm not sure, there were some 14 changes made in the overall setup in the way of 15 doing business over at the Krummrich Plant, and I 16 don't recall who this was, whether it was in the 17 Technical Services or in the Mechanical 18 Department, I don't know. 19 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 20 Exhibit 22 was marked for identification by the 21 Court Reporter.) 22 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 23 show you a document, Bates Number CER 011305, 24 Plaintiff's Exhibit 22, and ask you to take a look 25 at it. Do you recognize this document? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7418 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 61 1 A. Only from having seen it a year ago. 2 Q. This was used in the deposition that 3 you gave a year ago? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Who was Mr. Bergen? 6 A. I believe he was head of the 7 business group that included PCBs. 8 Q. How about Mr. Springate? 9 A. In there some place. 10 Q. Also in the business group? 11 A. I think, yes. 12 Q. Do you have any recollection that 13 these are the individuals to whom the ad hoc 14 committee would be reporting? 15 A. Well it's logical, I have no 16 recollection of it. 17 Q. If you flip over to the second page 18 there is some handwriting at the top of the page, 19 is that your handwriting? 20 A. Not that I know of. 21 Q. It doesn't look like it to you. 22 MR. HEINEMAN: 23 are on the same page. I'm not sure you two 24 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I'm on the 25 second page. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7419 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94________________________ 62 1 MR. HEINEMAN: Here. 2 THE WITNESS: No, that's not mine, 3 it doesn't look like my writing. 4 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) And the handwriting 5 on the next page is also not your handwriting? 6 A. It doesn't appear to be. 7 Q. Do you know whose handwriting it is? 8 A. No. 9 Q. On the -- on page three of the 10 document under the heading recommendations, it 11 looks like this document is being edited by 12 somebody, is that a fair statement? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. Do you know who was doing the 15 editing here? 16 A. No, I don't even know who wrote it. 17 Q. Under the paragraph that was 18 originally numbered four and then is handwritten 19 number two, do you see that paragraph? 20 A. Yes. Yes, I see it. 21 Q. It was originally reduce losses of 22 Arochlors in liquid wastes from Monsanto plants to 23 absolute minimum and then absolute is struck, and 24 then originally it had goal zero to ten parts per 25 billion, and it's been inserted for 1254 and 1260, TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007420 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 63 1 the goal is zero, zero to less than 5 parts per 2 billion, do you see that? 3 A. Yes, I see, uh-huh. 4 Q. Do you know why these -- let me go 5 back. Do you have any recollection of the 6 committee's recommendations with respect to the 7 issues discussed in the paragraph that I just 8 quoted to you? 9 10 two? A. Are you referring to this number 11 12 4 Q. Right, number two, previously number 13 A. No, I don't know why the changes are 14 there. 15 Q. Do you know what the committee 16 ultimately recommended in this regard? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Under paragraph 6, there's a 19 reference to analyzing selected appropriate 20 samples from environment of Anniston and WGK 21 plants, do you see that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did the environment of the WGK 24 plant, which I assume is the Krummrich plant, 25 include any samples from Dead Creek? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7421 Page 64 -_____________ PAUL B. HODGES, 6/1/-M__________________________ ^ 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. On page 11 of the memo there's a 3 discussion of budgetary considerations. Was it 4 the committee's view that expenditures on PCB 5 discharge reduction were justified in order to 6 protect the business? 7 A. That's what it says, yes. 8 Q. Do you have any recollection of that 9 being the committee's view? 10 A. Not specifically. 11 Q. Generally? 12 A. It's reasonable. 13 Q. Do you recall any other 14 justifications for expenditures on PCB reduction? 15 A. No. 16 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 17 Exhibit 23 was marked for identification by the 18 Court Reporter.) 19 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Let me show you a 20 document marked as Hodges 23 for identification. 21 This is a document with Bates number CER 015685. 22 Is that your signature on the last page of the 23 document? 24 A. Yes, it appears to be. Q. This is a memo from you to a Mr. W. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7422 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 65 1 A. Kuhn, K-U-H-N? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Who is Mr. Kuhn? 4 A. I don't recall what his position 5 was, whether he was Superintendent of a group that 6 included Arochlors at the plant or whether he was 7 out of the General Office yet, I don't know. 8 Q. Do you recall that at various times 9 Mr. Kuhn worked at Krummrich and in the general 10 offices ? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you recall what his position was 13 at Krummrich? 14 A. Not specifically. I think he came 15 up from probably being the Supervisor and was made 16 a Superintendent. He was never Plant Manager or 17 anything like that. 18 Q. From Krummrich he moved into General 19 Offices ? 20 A. I assume. 21 Q. Do you know or -- 22 A. No, I don't know, but I knew he was 23 in General Offices, he may have gone some place 24 else in the mean while. Q. Can you tell by this memo whether TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7423 Page 66 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 he's in the General Offices or at Krummrich? 2 A. No, wait I'm rather guessing that he 3 was still in the plant. 4 Q. There is -- after his name in the 5 top line of the memo, there is a number 4 in 6 parentheses. 7 A. Yes. $ Q. Do you see that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you know what that refers to? 11 A. I can assume that he got four copies 12 of this. On relooking at this, I could probably 13 assume that he was out at the General Offices. 14 Q. Why is that? 15 A. Well it wouldn't make much sense for 16 me to be writing somebody in the plant, the 17 Superintendent of the plant, it would be up to the 18 plant people to write their Superintendent. So I 19 don't know. 20 Q. On the second page of the document, 21 the first full paragraph, there's a discussion of 22 air sampling. Do you know whether an air sampling 23 program was ever developed? 24 A. I don't recall. 25 Q. Under the heading waste reduction, TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7424 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 67 1 there's a discussion of the proposal to install 2 sumps to eliminate sewering of undissolved 3 Arochlors. 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. Do you know whether those sumps were 6 ever installed? 7 A. No, I don't. 8 Q. How would sumps eliminate the 9 discharge or the sewering of undissolved 10 Arochlors? 11 A. They would trap any free Arochlors 12 by settling to the bottom of the sumps. 13 Q. Is it fair to state that by, that 14 Monsanto's consideration of installing these sumps 15 at this point suggests that undissolved Arochlors 16 were being discharged to the sewer at this time? 17 A. I think that's a fair statement, 18 otherwise we wouldn't be doing it. 19 Q. Do you know the extent to which 20 undissolved Arochlors were being discharged to the 21 sewers ? 22 A. No. 23 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 24 Exhibit 24 was marked for identification by the 25 Court Reporter.) TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7425 Page 68 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 2 show you a document that's been marked as Hodges 3 24, and ask you to take a look at it. This is a 4 document with Bates Number CER 010879. Who is Mr. 5 Tucker? 6 A. Research chemist. 7 Q. At Krummrich? 8 9 2nd. A. No. At -- it shows him at South 10 Q. What's that? 11 A. Well that was the Old Queeny plant. 12 Q. In St. Louis? 13 A. Yes, I think these people were later 14 moved out to the general offices. 15 Q. This is to Mr. Pierle, who was at 16 Krummrich, correct? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. And you were copied on this memo. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. As well as the other members of the 21 ad hoc committee. 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. There's a discussion of some 24 sediment sampling that was undertaken with respect to the Mississippi River sediments, is that TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7426 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94______________________ 69 1 correct? 2 A. That's what it says, yes. 3 Q. He says in two cases significant 4 amounts of the heavier materials were present with 5 respect to the Arochlor 1242 content. Do you know 6 what that means? 7 A. No. Apparently there was more of 8 the higher Arochlors than there was 1242, that's 9 what it says. 10 Q. Now if you look at the sample 11 results that are listed in this memo under the 12 amount found column, it says reported as Arochlor 13 1242, do you see that? 14 A. Yes. I don't know what that means. 15 Q. My question was whether, in light of 16 the statement from above, regarding the heavier 17 Arochlors, whether the sample results listed under 18 that column that I just quoted to you are, in 19 fact, understating the total PCB content in the 20 samples ? 21 A. I don't know how they converted it 22 to 1242. 23 Q. Did you have any reaction to these 24 sampling results when they were presented to you? A. I don't recall. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7427 Page 70 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 Q. Do you recall whether -- do you 2 recall whether you viewed sediment samples showing 3 PCB contents in the parts per million range as 4 being serious? 5 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. Do you know where these sampling 7 locations were? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Do you know what the Monsanto 10 document is? 11 A. Vaguely, I mean it was out on the 12 river. I don't recall where. 13 Q. Do you know where it was in relation 14 to the, for instance, the Village of Sauget Sewage 15 Treatment Plant? 16 A. No, I do not. 17 Q. The Krummrich facility did abut the 18 river, didn't it? 19 A. I don't remember. I don't think 20 that it did, but I'm not certain. 21 Q. Was any consideration given to 22 possible remedial measures that could be taken 23 with respect to the PCB contaminated sediments 24 identified in this memo? -7C A. Not that I recall. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7428 Page 71 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 2 Exhibit 25 was marked for identification by the 3 Court Reporter.) 4 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 5 show you a document that's been marked as Hodges 6 25, this is a document with Bates Number CER 7 013374. This is a memo from yourself to Mr. 8 Hosmer, and I would like to direct your attention 9 to the first paragraph. In the first paragraph 10 you talk about Phenol losses dropping from 1,431 11 pounds a day to dropping to 1622 pounds a day, do 12 you see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. I believe yesterday, when we were 15 talking yesterday about the Phenol reduction 16 program you indicated that the goal was 1,000 17 pounds a day. 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. Did you ever reach that goal? 20 A. I thought we did, but I don't 21 recall. I thought we got there, approximately. I 22 don't know why it was that high during that period 23 because I think these appear to been abnormally 24 high, as I recall. 25 Q. Uh-huh. You say in this memo, Phenol TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7429 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 72 1 in well water still high at 700 pounds a day. Did 2 you view that as a possible contributing factor to 3 the losses that you were seeing in the sewers? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did the Krummrich facility use well 6 water? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you know how extensively? How 9 extensively you used well water? 10 A. A lot of it for our cooling. 11 Q. Was the well water ever tested for 12 PCBs ? 13 A. Not to my knowledge. 14 Q. As part of the PCB reduction 15 program, did you ever do any evaluation of whether 16 well water was perhaps contributing to the PCBs 17 that were being released to the sewers? 18 A. Not to my knowledge. 19 Q. Do you know why that was not 20 considered? 21 A. No, I don't really know why we 22 didn't check it. We checked, I can say we checked 23 the Phenol in the well water because of an old, 24 old installation. I think even before Monsanto 25 owned the plant there had been a Phenol Department TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007430 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 73 1 there, and well water from that area had Phenols 2 in it. This is, you know 1910, 1920. 3 Q. How do you know that? 4 A. History, I mean I was the one that 5 found the, in my work there, I found the phenols 6 in the well water. In looking back, I discovered 7 that that was the site of a old, old plant. 8 Q. To some extent, the PCB reduction 9 program was modeled after the Phenol reduction 10 program, is that a fair statement? 11 A. I would say so, yes. 12 Q. But there was never any evaluation 13 of the well water as a possible source of PCB loss 14 in the sewer system. 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Did you ever recommend that that 17 evaluation take place? 18 A. No. There was, you might say a 19 retrospect, there was no reason to particularly, 20 it might have been done, but PCBs would not leech 21 out like phenols. 22 Q. Why is that? 23 A. Solubility is entirely different. 24 Phenol is much more soluable, PCBs are essentially 25 insoluble. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7431 Page 74 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 Q. You didn't look at it that ground 2 water contamination could be contributing to the 3 PCB losses in the sewer? 4 A. In hindsight, that's right, but I 5 don't remember. 6 Q. So what you're saying, as you sit 7 here today, it's probably not likely that you 8 don't think it's likely that PCBs -- let me finish 9 and then you can answer. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. As you sit here today, you don't 12 think it's likely that PCB contaminated ground 13 water was contributing to losses to the sewer, but 14 you don't know whether you considered it back 15 then? 16 A. That's a fair statement. 17 Q. But in any event, you don't believe 18 that you recommended ground water sampling as a 19 part of the PCB reduction program. 20 A. There's no evidence of it that I've 21 seen. 22 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 23 Exhibit 26 was marked for identification by the 24 Court Reporter.) .25 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7432 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94______________________ 75 1 show you a document that's been marked as Hodges 2 26 and ask you to take a look at it. This is a 3 document with Bates Number CER 01209 -- I'm sorry, 4 yes, 909. 5 MR. HEINEMAN: Come again? 6 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) CER, 012909. 7 MR. HEINEMAN: Thank you. 8 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) This is a memo from 9 Mr. McCutchan to a Mr. Papageorge 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You appear to have been copied on 12 this document, is that correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Who is Mr. Papageorge? 15 A. He was in one of the business 16 departments, and my recollection is that he was 17 placed in charge overall of the PCB problems. 18 This was later in the ad hoc committee, somewhat. 19 Q. Do you know, this document is dated 20 April 7th, 1970, correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you know whether the ad hoc 23 committee was still meeting at that point in time? 24 A. I don't remember. Q. Do you know whether there was a time TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007433 Page 76 _______________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 when Mr. Papageorge was given responsibilities for 2 PCBs when the ad hoc committee was still meeting 3 and considering those issues, as well? 4 A. I don't remember whether it was at 5 the same time or later or whether he succeeded the 6 ad hoc committee, I don't know. 7 Q. Was Mr. Papageorge at this time 8 attached to the Organic Division of the company? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you know who it was that gave him 11 responsibilities for PCBs? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Was it Mr. Hosmer? 14 A. No, it would have been higher up 15 than that. 16 Q. Higher up than Mr. Hosmer? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Was Mr. Papageorge originally in the 19 Organics Division? When I say originally, I mean 20 prior. 21 A. He had been in it. 22 Q. Do you know if he had any background 23 or experience with respect to PCBs? 24 A. Not specific. He had been Plant 25 Manager, I believe of the Queeny Plant, and maybe TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7434 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 77 1 even of the Anniston Plant. I don't recall. But 2 he had had a number of management positions. 3 Q. Do you know if he is still with the 4 company? 5 A. I have no idea, I doubt it. That's 6 a long time ago. 7 Q. There's a discussion in this memo of 8 samples being taken at the water line of the 9 Mississippi River. Do you see that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Can you tell whether those are 12 sediment samples or water samples? 13 14 line? A. I don't know what he means by water 15 Q. And you don't know whether, what 16 media is being sampled here or what medium is 17 being sampled? 18 A. It may have been just samples taken 19 off of the top of the river, I don't know. 20 Q. There's a handwritten notation at 21 the top of this memo, wild life. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Is that your handwriting? 24 A. No. Q. Was Mr. Papageorge given a title TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007435 Page 78 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 when he was assigned responsibility for PCBs? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. Do you recall how long he was -- he 4 held that position? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you recall if he held any, do you 7 recall him holding any position other than having 8 responsibility for PCBs at this time? 9 A. I believe not. 10 Q. This was his full-time job? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you recall whether he moved onto 13 other positions subsequent to having this PCB 14 role ? 15 A. I don't recall. 16 Q. Did you interact with Mr. Papageorge 17 on any kind of a regular basis while he was 18 responsible for PCBs? 19 A. I'm sure I did. I don't know if it 20 was a regular basis. Like a weekly or monthly 21 meeting, I doubt it, but I'm certain I reacted 22 with him. 23 Q. Did your role with respect to PCB 24 reduction change when Mr. Papageorge came on the 25 scene? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007436 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 79 1 A. I don't recall. 2 Q. There's a discussion at the bottom 3 of page one of this memo of known losses to the 4 sewer in March, and references to Department 243 5 and Department 251. Do you know what those 6 departments are? 7 A. 243 was, I think a Little 8 Phosphorus, what we called the Little Phosphorus 9 area, and frankly, I don't remember why we would 10 have had Arochlor losses there. I don't remember 11 using Arochlor there. We may have. Department 12 251, I don't remember what that was. 13 Q. On the second page of this memo 14 there is a discussion, or there's a list of 15 current work numbers 1 through 5. 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. Did you have any involvement in any 18 of these projects? 19 A. Not specific. 20 Q. Generally, did you have any 21 involvement? 22 A. Well, it would have been very 23 general. I mean I was kept informed. That was 24 about it, and had I been dissatisfied with the 25 progress I would have done something. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7437 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 80 1 Q. Do you recall ever having to take 2 any actions with respect to any of these projects 3 because you were dissatisfied with what was being 4 done? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you remember having to take any 7 action with respect to any aspects of the PCB 8 reduction program because you were dissatisfied 9 with what was being done? 10 A. No. 11 Q. I'm sorry. My question could have 12 been clearer, is your answer no, you don't 13 remember or no, you never took any action? 14 A. No, I don't remember taking any 15 action. My general recollection is that I thought 16 the actions of the plant were very good. 17 Q. Do you recall the plant developing a 18 daily discharge goal of 10 parts per billion? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Or two point three pounds a day 21 discharge goal? 22 A. Not from memory. 23 Q. Do you know Mr. Engman? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Who was he? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007438 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94_________________ Page 81 1 A. Chemist. 2 Q. Was he at Krummrich? 3 A. Yes. He may have moved his general 4 offices later, I don't know. 5 Q. During this? 6 A. I think he was at Krummrich. 7 think he was in the laboratory. And I 8 Q. Do you recall his role, if any, in 9 the PCB reduction program? 10 A. No. 11 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 12 Exhibit 27 was marked for identification by the 13 Court Reporter.) 14 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 15 hand you a document that's been marked as Hodges 16 27. This is a document with Bates number CER 17 012879 and I'll ask you to take a look at that. 18 Mr. Hodges, who was Mr. Savage? 19 A. He was in the Business Group. 20 Q. PCB? 21 A. I don't know his title. 22 Q. PCB Business Group? 23 A. Perhaps others, as well. 24 Q. Was he above or below Mr. Bergen? 25 A. He reported to Harold Bergen who was TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7439 Page 82 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 head of that business group. 2 Q. What other products were in that 3 business group besides PCBs? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. Do you know what Mr. Savage's role 6 was in the PCB Reduction Program? 7 A. No, I don't know, specifically. He 8 was in the business group and he was apparently 9 reporting to Bill Papageorge on what they had 10 done. 11 Q. Why was Mr. Savage reporting to Mr. 12 Papageorge on what was being done? 13! A. Well part of the progress made by 14 the department of the plant. 15 Q. The plant reported back to the 16 business group? 17 A. Yes. Well, in a manner yes, of 18 course. 19 Q. You're copied on this memo, is that 20 correct? 21 A. Appears to be, yes. Q. On the first page of the memo with respect to the Anniston Plant, there is a statement that their Arochlor losses averaged three pounds a day. Do you see that? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007440 Page 83 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 A. I see it. 2 Q. And that there were four high daily 3 values that account for 1.8 pounds a day. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. If you flip over to the discussion 6 of Krummrich on the next page, there is a 7 statement that the Krummrich plant losses were 8 equivalent to 86 pounds a day. Do you see that? 9 A. That's from the treatment plant, 10 that isn't necessarily the Krummrich plant. 11 Q. Okay. That's losses to the 12 treatment plant? 13 A. That's right. : 14 Q. Losses from the treatment plant to 15 the river? 16 A. That's right. 17 Q. Do you know whether during this time 18 period Anniston was experiencing lower PCB losses 19 than Krummrich? 20 A. I don't recall. Reading from this, 21 apparently there were, but I don't know. 22 Q. Why was that? 23 A. Perhaps different circumstances. 24 Q. Do you know? A. I don't know the circumstances. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7441 Page 84 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 2 Exhibit 28 was marked for identification by the 3 Court Reporter.) 4 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 5 show you Hodges 28, which is a document with Bates 6 Number CER 012916. Under paragraph A on the first 7 page there's a discussion of losses, Arochlor 8 losses from the Arochlor Department and losses 9 from the Sauget Village Treatment Plant. Do you 10 see that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. There is a rather significant 13 difference between the losses from the department 14 and the losses from the treatment plant, is that a 15 fair statement? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you know why there was such a 18 discrepancy at this point between the losses from 19 the Arochlor Department and the losses from the 20 treatment plant? 21 A. I don't know why, but it's pretty 22 obvious that there were other contributors. 23 Q. In fact, paragraph C under the 24 Krummrich Plant discusses sampling from other industrial plants to determine whether they're TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7442 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94_________________ Page 85 1 contributing to the losses of the treatment plant? 2 A. 3 Q. 4 undertaken? 5 A. That's what it says. Do you recall that effort being No. 6 Q. Do you recall whether you were ever 7 advised of the results of any of those efforts? 8 A. I don't recall. I may have been 9 sent some reports, but I don't remember. 10 Q. Let's see if we can find one and see 11 if that refreshes your recollection. 12 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 13 Exhibit 29 was marked for identification by the 14 Court Reporter.) 15 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 16 show you Hodges 29 which is a document with Bates 17 number CER 011220. This is a memo from Mr. Engman 18 to Mr. Savage, and if you look on the second page 19 you'll see that Mr. Engman is identified as being 20 attached to the Technical Services Department. 21 Does that refresh your recollection at all about 22 what Mr. Engman's role was in the PCB reduction 23 program? 24 A. Slightly, apparently he transferred from the laboratory into tech services. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7443 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 86 1 Q. Tech services was the department 2 that you worked in when you were the stream 3 pollution engineer, is that right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. That was also the department that 6 Mr. Pierle was in. 7 A. That's right. 8 Q. 9 reduction. At the time he was involved in PCB 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Mr. Buckley was also in that 12 department when he was involved in PCB reduction. 13 A. Now, in 1971 I see Paul Heisler on : 14 the distribution. He may have picked up the 15 environmental work. 16 Q. From -- 17 A. As part of the safety work. 18 Q. Picked it up from Mr. Pierle? 19 A. Or Larry Buckley. 20 Q. Although Mr. Buckley is on the 21 distribution list. 22 A. Heisler, as I recall was a 23 Superintendent, and I think, perhaps the 24 environmental work was transferred to his 25 department. He had safety, fire, and TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7444 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 87 1 environmental. 2 Q. 3 A. 4 the group. 5 Q. How about Mr. Foresman? He was one of the fellows working in Mr. Hodges, does Hodges 29 refresh 6 your recollection at all as to PCB samples taken 7 with respect to other contributors to the Village 8 sewer system? 9 A. I don't recall it. 10 Q. Do you see the sampling results that 11 are set forth under paragraph I-C? 12 A. Yes . 13 Q. : 14 results ? You don't recall reviewing those 15 A. No, I don't recall it. 16 Q. There is a reference to a sample 17 being taken from Cerro Copper & Brass, do you see 18 that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you know where that sample was 21 taken? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Do you know who would be a good 24 person to ask where that sample was taken? 25 A. Engman if he is still around. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7445 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 88 1 Q. Do you know if Mr. Engman was 2 actually doing the sampling or whether somebody 3 else was doing it? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. There's an indication that a sample 6 was taken from Dead Creek, do you see that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you know where that sample was 9 taken? 10 A. No 11 Q. Do you know why they were sampling 12 from Dead Creek? 13 A. No. . 14 Q. There's a statement that the only 15 significant quantity is the PCBs from the Village 16 Sewer. Do you see that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And then Mr. Engman goes on to 19 attribute that to, as a probable source, Arochlor 20 trailer washes at Rogers Terminal. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you know what Rogers Terminal 23 was? 24 A. I don't really recall. Frankly, I 25 don't know where it was. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7446 Page 89 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 Q. Do you know what it was? 2 A. I think it was a trucking company, I 3 believe. But I don't remember. 4 Q. Did Rogers do trucking for Monsanto? 5 A. I don't remember. 6 Q. How would Rogers come to have 7 Arochlors in his trailers? 8 A. 9 Arochlors. I can only guess that they hauled 10 Q. When you were involved in PCB 11 production, did you have any dealings with Rogers? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you have any dealings with any 14 trucking companies? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Who was responsible for dealing with 17 trucking companies? Was that out of a different 18 department than production? 19 A. Oh I'm sure, yes. 20 Q. Do you know if Arochlors were ever 21 hauled by truck? 22 A. I don't recall. Apparently they 23 must have been, judging from this. 24 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 30 was marked for identification by the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7447 Page 90 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94_________________ ________ 1 Court Reporter.) 2 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 3 show you Hodges-30, which is a document with Bates 4 Number CER 011664. This is a memo from Mr. 5 Papageorge to Mr. Savage and you appear to be 6 copied on this memo, is that correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. Can you just review the second 9 paragraph of this memo? There's a discussion of 10 high levels of PCBs being trapped in the soil and 11 sewer systems, do you see that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you know what the basis was for 14 Mr. Papageorge's conclusion that there were high 15 levels of PCBs trapped in the soil and the sewers? 16 A. I don't know where he got that 17 information. 18 Q. Did you disagree with that 19 conclusion by Mr. Papageorge? 20 A. Now or then or what? 21 Q. Well we'll start with then. 22 A. No, I question -- I don't recall, 23 but I don't suppose that I did. 24 Q. What about now? 25 A. I would question about the PCBs TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7448 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 91 1 trapped in the soil and if there is some in the 2 sewer system, I wouldn't question that. 3 Q. How would PCBs trapped in the sewers 4 be a source of continuing losses? 5 A. Gradually get flushed out. 6 Q. How would that occur? 7 A. Just flow, high flows over periods 8 of time. 9 Q. There's a statement that clean up of 10 these sources could be economically impractical. 11 A. That's what it says, yes. 12 Q. Do you understand that to mean that 13 it was too expensive? 14 A. That's what it says. 15 Q. If PCBs are insoluble in water how 16 would they be washed out of the sewers if they 17 were trapped in the sewers? 18 A. Just by the flows catching them up. 19 Q. Physically? 20 A. There might be, everything is very 21 slightly soluble, everything is, but they're 22 comparatively insoluble, but just the mechanical 23 action of flushing would tend to bring them out. 24 Q. In the course of that flushing would the PCBs become mixed in with the water? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7449 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 92 1 A. Yes . 2 Q. The degree of the mixing would 3 depend on the degree of the agitation within the 4 pipe. 5 A. That's a fair statement, or in the 6 manholes. 7 Q. Or in the manholes? 8 A. Yes, I find it a little hard to 9 believe that there was much in the way of pipes, 10 in the pipes, because I think the flows were a 11 little high but the manholes could have been more 12 than something else. 13 Q. Probably more in the manholes than 14 something else? 15 A. I would believe. 16 Q. Is it fair to say that if heavy 17 flows were going in the manholes, the PCBs might 18 become agitated in the manholes? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. They might not necessarily stay at 21 the bottom of the manhole. 22 A. Not necessarily. This is something 23 that might take place over a long period of time. Q. Could it also take place, for instance during a heavy storm event? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7450 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 93 1 A. That would assist in it. 2 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 3 Exhibit 31 was marked for identification by the 4 Court Reporter.) 5 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Do you know whether 6 Monsanto ever tested sediment from manholes at the 7 Krummrich plant? 8 A. Don't know. 9 Q. Let me show you a document that's 10 been marked as Hodges 31. It's Bates number CER 11 012876. You were copied on this document, is that 12 correct ? 13 A. Yes. ! 14 Q. If you could flip over to page three 15 of the document, there's a discussion of cost 16 estimates for a project to clean the sewers, and 17 it's broken down into cleaning the sewers from the 18 chlorine department to the plant fence and 19 cleaning from the fence to the treatment plant. 20 Do you see that? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Can you identify those areas for me 23 on any of the maps that we've looked at 24 A. Probably could. I don't know. We ,25 haven't looked at any from the fence to the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7451 Page 94 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 treatment plant. I haven't seen any. 2 Q. Let me show you the document, the 3 map that we marked as Hodges 1, which is the 1964 4 map, and I guess my initial question to you is, do 5 you know what Mr. Savage is referring to when he 6 talks about the plant fence? 7 A. I'll see if I can find - 8 MR. HEINEMAN: Wait a minute, 9 there's a question pending, Mr. Hodges. 10 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) The question pending 11 is do you know what Mr. Savage is referring to 12 when he refers to the plant fence? 13 A. Yes, it's pretty obvious. 14 Q. Okay. Why don't you take a look at 15 the map and try to identify the sewer cleaning 16 that he's referring to? 17 A. As I recall 232 is the Chlorine 18 Department. Now where their effluent goes, I'm 19 not real sure, but apparently, I mean this isn't 20 very clear where their effluent goes, but the only 21 line that I see is this, although there surely 22 must be others. I don't know, this map isn't very 23 clear in this respect. 24 Q. Do you know, can you point out for 25 me where the plant fence is that you think he is TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7452 Page 95 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________ ________ , 1 referring to? 2 A. I'm sure he is talking about -- well 3 it isn't on this map, it's along route three. 4 Q. So it's west of the end of this map? 5 A. That's right. 6 Q. Can you take a stab at it on the map 7 that we've marked as Hodges 4? 8 A. Let's see where we are. Here's 9 Route 3, these are building numbers and not plant 10 numbers. But -11 Q. If you look on the '64 map, I 12 believe there is a building number for the 13 department that you identified as being - 14 A. Is that C-A? 15 Q. Chlorine you said was 232. 16 A. I think so. 17 Q. CE on the 1964 map, and CE appears 18 to be right here. 19 A. CE. Yeah. I'm puzzled, I don't 20 know how this went, whether it went this way or 21 whether it went that way, I don't know. 22 Q. Okay. Where is the plant fence? 23 A, I'm sure what he was talking about 24 is at Route 3. Q. So it's your understanding then that TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007453 Page 96 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 he is talking about a cost estimate for cleaning 2 the sewers from the Chlorine Department to the 3 plant fence, however, that sewer ran, and I 4 understand that you can't tell from this map, is 5 that correct? 6 A. Yeah. It talks about the sewer, and 7 I don't know if he meant the 24, or the 36 or both 8 of them? I have no idea. 9 Q. Is it your understanding. Well let 10 me ask you this, do you know why he had identified 11 the Chlorine Department? 12 A. I'm puzzled by that, I don't know. 13 Q. The northern terminal of where the 14 cleaning was being considered? 15 A. I don't know why. I mean I'm 16 puzzled by it. 17 Q. Did the flows from the Chlorine 18 Department at some point join up with the flows 19 from Department 246 in the sewers? 20 A. I don't know. It could have. Not 21 necessarily. I mean, I don't know. 22 Q. On Exhibit 31, page 3, second 23 paragraph, there is a statement by Mr. Savage that 24 both main plant sewers appear contaminated with 25 PCBs and then (30W and 24W). Do you see that? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7454 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 97 1 A. Yes. 2 3 to? 4 Q. Do you know what 30W and 24W refer A. Two main sewers that were running 5 along the south side of our plant. Although it 6 seems to be called 36 in someplaces, so I don't 7 know. 8 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 9 Exhibit 32 was marked for identification by the 10 Court Reporter.) 11 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 12 show you Exhibit Hodges-32, Bates Number CER 13 011206, and ask you to take a look at it. Mr. 14 Hodges, who is Mr. Stewart? 15 A. Ed Stewart, and I don't know what he 16 was doing at that time. Ed was a chemical 17 engineer, and I don't know whether he was working 18 at the Krummrich plant, whether he had been 19 temporarily in the Environmental Group, I don't 20 know. 21 Q. The signature page on the second 22 page of this memo suggests that he was with the 23 Technical Services Department. 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. Do you recall him having any TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007455 Page 98 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 involvement in the PCB reduction program? 2 A. I frankly don't recall, but it's 3 here. I mean. I see it. 4 Q. Did you have any input as to who at 5 Krummrich would be involved in the PCB reduction 6 program? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Who made those discussions? 9 A. Krummrich Plant, probably, I think 10 it was Heisler or Jerry Bratsch by that time, but 11 I'm not sure. 12 Q. What was Mr. Bratsch's position? 13 A. He was Plant Manager. 14 Q. Under paragraph 1-A of Hodges 31, 15 there is a discussion of a 500 gallon loss to the 16 sewer. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Do you have any recollection of that 19 incident? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Under paragraph B there's a 22 discussion of total plant losses, do you see that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did you have a chance to read that 25 paragraph? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007456 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 99 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. There's a statement that the slug 3 flow loss from the Arochlor Department did not 4 appear of the same magnitude at the plant exit 5 sewer stream. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you know what Mr. Stewart means 8 by slug flow loss? 9 A. He's referring to this 500 gallon 10 loss, which happened essentially all at once or 11 over a very short period of time. 12 Q. So he is saying that that 500 gallon 13 loss did not reach the plant exit points all at 14 the same time? 15 A. They didn't measure it there. They 16 didn't -- they didn't detect that much at that 17 point. 18 Q. Do you know where the plant exit 19 losses were being measured at this point in time? 20 A. I'm not certain, but I assume it's 21 at the west fence of manholes. 22 Q. Are there any possible reasons why 23 the slug flow was not detected at the plant exit? 24 A. It could have been trapped in the -Iff manholes. I don't know, but to me that is a very TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7457 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 100 1 logical explanation. 2 Q. That it would sink out in manholes? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you recall whether the 5 discrepancy between the losses that were being 6 measured from the Arochlor Department and the 7 losses that were coming from the Waste Treatment 8 Plant was ever resolved or explained? 9 A. No, I don't know. From some of the 10 things I've seen, the trucking company contributed 11 significant amounts, but beyond that I don't know. 12 Frankly, I was a little surprised at 13 that statement. 14 Q. Which statement? 15 A. Samples from other Sauget Village 16 industries reveal insignificant amounts of 17 Arochlors. 18 Q. Why were you surprised by that? 19 A. I think I've seen references to 20 considerable amounts from the trucking company. 21 Q. The reference to the trucking 22 company is related to truck washing though, is 23 that correct? 24 A. Yes, washing of trucks, and that 25 sort of thing. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007458 Page 101 _______________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 Q. Is it fair to say that that would 2 occur probably on a more sporadic basis than, for 3 instance, losses from a 24-hour a day production? 4 MR. HEINEMAN: Let me object to the 5 form of the question as calling for speculation on 6 the part of the witness. 7 question, if you know. You can answer the 8 9 don't know. THE WITNESS: Fair statement that I 10 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 11 Exhibit 33 was marked for identification by the 12 Court Reporter.) 13 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 14 show you Hodges 33 and ask you to take a look at 15 it. This is a memo from Mr. Savage to Mr. 16 Papageorge, and you're copied on that memo, is 17 that correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Date of the memo is July 16, 1971. 20 Under paragraph 1(B) there's a discussion of the 21 total plant losses. Did you have a chance to look 22 at this? 23 A. I see it. 24 Q. He states that "the plant exit 25 losses as measured from the 24- and 36-inch plant TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7459 Page 102 ____________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 sewers continue a downward trend. June average 16 2 pounds a day. However, treatment plant influent 3 figures are about 5 times greater. We are trying 4 to resolve this discrepancy." 5 Now we had just talked a little bit 6 about that same discrepancy or the discrepancy 7 between the company's losses and what was entering 8 into the Village Treatment Plant, and we had 9 talked about the fact that an earlier memo had 10 identified the trucking company, Rogers, as a 11 possible source. Do you recall that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And just to refresh your 14 recollection, the memo that identified Rogers as a 15 possible source of additional losses to the sewer 16 is dated January 5, 1971, do you see that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now in July of 1971, Mr. Savage is 19 stating that he is still trying to resolve the 20 discrepancy between the low level of Monsanto's 21 losses and the high level coming into the sewage 22 treatment plant, is that correct? 23 A. That's what it says, uh-huh. 24 Q. Is it fair to say that Rogers was 25 not then the sole source of this discrepancy, at TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007460 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 103 1 least as of July 16, 1971? 2 MR. HEINEMAN: Object to the form of 3 the question as calling for speculation on the 4 part of the witness. 5 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) If you can answer 6 without speculating. 7 A. I have no idea on that. 8 Q. Is it fair to say that as of July 9 16, 1971, the discrepancy between what Monsanto 10 was losing and what was being identified as going 11 into the Village Treatment Plant was not resolved? 12 A. That's what it says. 13 Q. Do you know if Rogers was still 14 contributing PCBs to the sewer system in July of 15 1971? 16 A. I have no knowledge of that. 17 Q. Do you know if Monsanto implemented 18 a program to wash its own trucks as opposed to 19 letting Rogers wash -- let me withdraw that. Do 20 you know whether Monsanto implemented a program to 21 its self- washed trucks that transported its 22 Arochlors as opposed to letting Rogers wash them? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. You have no recollection of that? 25 A. No. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7461 Page 104 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 2 Exhibit 34 was marked for identification by the 3 Court Reporter.) 4 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 5 show you a document that's been marked as Hodges 6 34 for identification. This is a document with 7 Bates number CER 015616, and I would ask you to 8 take a look at that. Mr. Hodges, this is a memo 9 from Mr. Savage to Mr. Papageorge dated October 8, 10 1971? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you are copied on this memo. 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. Do you understand from this memo as 15 of October 8, 1971 the discrepancy between 16 Monsanto's losses and the amount of PCBs entering 17 the treatment plant had still not been resolved? 18 A. That's what it says, uh-huh. 19 Q. Under paragraph 1-B there's a 20 statement "grab samples and additional sampling 21 with a different type pump would indicate that 22 measured losses at the plant exit 24-inch and 23 36-inch sewers are in error, this discrepancy must 24 be resolved." Do you see that? 'yc A. Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7462 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 105 1 Q. Do you know what that reference is 2 to, or do you know what that is about? 3 A. No. I don't know, specifically, and 4 I don't know what the different type pumps were. 5 But -- I don't know. I just don't know. 6 Q. Do you recall there being - 7 A. For example, it might have been 8 taken off the bottom of the manhole. 9 know. I don't 10 Q. Do you know that an issue arose as 11 to what the proper sampling method was for 12 sampling the effluent in the sewers for PCBs? 13 A. I don't know that there was any 14 discussion of it. The sampling is difficult, 15 adequate sampling. 16 Q. Why is that? 17 A. Problems in mixing in the sewer, I 18 might explain that, as I recall the sampling 19 there, you put a line down in the manhole and let 20 it trail downstream from the manhole to get 21 maximum mixing before you pull the sample back up, 22 and then you pull the sample back up. Well that's 23 the best we knew how and was probably as good as 24 any sampling system in the world, but it isn't 7A perfect. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007463 Page 106 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 Q. Were you involved in coming up with 2 the sampling protocol? 3 A. Protocol? What do you mean by that? 4 Q. The method of taking the sample, you 5 know, in this case? 6 A. I developed the early samplers, and 7 I don't know whether they were still being used at 8 that time. I think they probably were but maybe 9 they're talking about a different type sampler. 10 Q. The sampling method that you just 11 described, does that involve using any kind of a 12 pump? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Where does the pump come into play? 15 A. It pulls the material, pumps it back 16 up from a tube into a pump and discharges it into 17 your receiver. 18 Q. So you're not just sticking the 19 receiver down in the hole, sticking a jar down 20 there. 21 A. That's what a grab sample would be. 22 Q. Do you recall that in the course of 23 the PCB Reduction Program they changed the kind of 24 samplers that was used to take the samples in the sewer? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7464 Page 107 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 A. I don't recall. I see what it says 2 here, but I don't recall that. 3 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 4 Exhibit 35 was marked for identification by the 5 Court Reporter.) 6 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 7 show you Hodges 35 and ask you to take a look at 8 it, this is document Bates Number CER 014288. I 9 think my questions relate pretty much exclusively 10 to the first page, so let me just ask you, first 11 of all, this is a memo from Mr. Stewart to Mr. 12 Savage dated November 2, 1971, and you are copied 13 on this memo, correct? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Now under paragraph 1 (a) there's a 16 discussion of a discovery that the underground 17 sewer system and sewer boxes in the area are 18 leaking very badly, do you see that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Mr. Stewart goes on to say that 21 cross flow from the sewer system and underground 22 water is possible. This may contribute to erratic 23 results when trying to find source of PCB into the 24 sewer system. What's the reference to sewer 25 boxes? What's a sewer box? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007465 Page 108 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 A. Those are the manholes. 2 Q. Manhole? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do know who it was that discovered 5 that the sewer and sewer boxes were leaking badly? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. How would cross flows between the 8 sewer system and the ground water contribute to 9 erratic results in trying to find the source of 10 PCBs into the sewers? 11 A. If we were having flows in and out 12 of the sewer boxes from ground water, that would 13 throw off, to some extent, the validity of your 14 results. 15 Q. How so? 16 A. What's that? 17 Q. How so? 18 A. If the flow was, for example, if 19 ground water was running into the sewer and we 20 were assuming that the flow was entirely out of 21 the department, then the loss would be higher than 22 the results we came up with. Conversely, if flows 23 were running out of the sewer system into the 24 ground water, it would be lower, is that clear? 25 Q. Let me ask you if you follow-up TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007466 Page 109 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ , 1 question? 2 A. Putting it another way you need 3 accurate flow data, you take your sample, get the 4 concentration, you multiply that by the flow. If 5 your flow data is incorrect, as perhaps shown here 6 why your results are somewhat incorrect, not a 7 great deal, but some. 8 Q. So if ground water is flowing into 9 the manhole, than your results are going to be 10 understated? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Because - 13 A. Unless ground water -- i 14 Q. The concentration is actually 15 higher, the concentration from the Department is 16 higher than the concentration in the manhole? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. And that assumes that the ground 19 water is less contaminated than the water coming 20 out of production? 21 A. That's right. 22 Q. Now if the water is flowing out of 23 the manhole, how is that going to impact the 24 sampling results? 25 A. The flow will be, let's see. I have TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7467 Page 110 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 to think about that. It will be less flow, 2 actually, and it will again, let's see. It will 3 -- you'll overstate the amount of PCBs. If you're 4 taking a certain concentration times a flow, and 5 that flow is less, why you're going to come up 6 with a higher analytical result than it actually 7 is . 8 Q. Well I understand when the flow is 9 coming into the manhole, again, assuming that the 10 ground water is less contaminated than the process 11 water, than in effect you got pollution in the 12 manhole, it's lowering your concentration. 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. When you're computing the output, 15 you just take the concentration times the flow, so 16 if the concentration is artificially diluted, than 17 the total output is going to be reduced. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. The measured total output. 20 A. Yes, because it will have shown 21 lower concentrations. 22 Q. Now when you've got flow going out 23 of the manhole, the water that's flowing out of 24 the manhole is not affecting the concentrations in 25 the manhole, is it? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7468 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 111 1 A. That's right. 2 Q. 3 still wrong. 4 A. 5 yes. So that perhaps your flow data are The flow data may be understated, 6 Q. But in that case the pound output of 7 PCBs is still going to be understated, isn't it? 8 Because you're going to be taking the same 9 concentration times a lower flow. 10 A. I would say that's correct, yes. 11 Q. When this discovery was made of the 12 leakage in the underground sewer system, did the 13 issue ever come up that you should determine what 14 the condition of the ground water was with respect 15 to PCB contamination? 16 A. Not that I recall. 17 Q. As you sit here today, albeit with 18 20/20 hindsight, would it have been a good idea to 19 determine what the condition of the ground water 20 was in that area in order to come up with an 21 accurate measure of PCB losses in the Department? 22 A. If there was a well or some place to 23 do it, I don't think it would have been justified 24 to dig a well to do that. 25 Q. Why is that? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7469 Page 112 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 A. I think the likelihood is very, very 2 low. 3 Q. That ground water as contributing to 4 the contamination? 5 A. Because of the high insolubility of 6 Arochlors. 7 Q. I guess that would lead as well to 8 the conclusion that the water, any ground water 9 that was seeping into the manholes was probably in 10 fact diluting the concentrations as opposed to 11 adding to the concentrations. 12 A. Could be, yes. 13 Q. That would be the likely consequence 14 of the statement that you just made regarding the 15 solubility of PCBs? 16 A. Yes, I think that's right. 17 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 18 Exhibit 36 was marked for identification by the 19 Court Reporter.) 20 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 21 show you Hodges 36, which is a document with Bates 22 Number CER 014291 this is a memo from Mr. Stewart 23 to Mr. Savage dated December 2, 1971. 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. Mr. Hodges, in the first paragraph TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007470 Page 113 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 there's a discussion of emergence of Arochlor 1221 2 as a sewer contaminant, do you see that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you know why that was deemed to 5 be a significant development? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Was Arochlor 1221 a product of 8 Monsanto in 1971? 9 A. Not that I recall, it could have 10 been, but I don't recall. 11 Q. Do you recall it ever being a 12 product? 13 A. No, I don't know what this 1109 is 14 either, for that matter. 15 Q. You don't know why Mr. Stewart felt 16 the discovery of Arochlor 1221 was significant. 17 A. Well, it was showing up, and they 18 didn't know, apparently. 19 MR. HEINEMAN: I'm going to have to 20 object, do you know, he asked you do you know - 21 THE WITNESS: No. 22 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Okay. 23 A. Okay, sorry. 24 Q. On the next page of the memo, there is a discussion under paragraph 1 (B) in the last TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7471 Page 114 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 sentence of a known cross flow between the main 2 sewer. What is that cross flow? 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. Do you know what the term cross flow 5 refers to? 6 A. Yes, it's between different sewers. 7 Q. But you don't know about this 8 particular cross flow. 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you know if this is a cross flow 11 between the 24-inch and the 30-inch sewers? 12 A. I don't know. It would be fair to 13 assume that. 14 Q. Mr. Hodges, let me direct your 15 attention back to Exhibit 35 for a second and 16 specifically paragraph B at the bottom. There's a 17 reference in there to an isokinetic sampler. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. My question is simply do you know 20 what an isokinetic sampler is? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What is that? 23 A. One that takes the samples in 24 proportion to the flow. 25 Q. What does that mean? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7472 Page 115 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 A. For example, if the flow, normally 2 the samplers that I developed and we used took 3 flows at a certain rate and we had to assume there 4 was an average flow during that period. Well, the 5 standpoint of reality is flows will vary, and that 6 was pretty good, but I mean that way was pretty 7 good, but it wasn't perfect, it was the best we 8 had at that time, and isokinetics increases the 9 rate of sampling, increases it proportionately. 10 Q. They're both continuous? 11 A. And also the, it also means that the 12 sample was taken directly from the pointing into 13 the waste stream. ; I'm sorry. I think I was 14 incorrect on that first. The isokinetic means 15 that the sample is taken directly from the waste 16 stream, at the same rate that the stream is 17 flowing, that's a little hard to explain. The 18 sampler that I developed I think I explained that 19 we let the tube trail downstream. 20 Q. Right. 21 A. So it would not do as good a job as 22 we would like to have on solids. If the stream 23 were going faster than we were pulling the waste 24 into the sampler, we would tend to be a little low 25 on solids. That's the best technique we had in TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7473 Page 116 _______________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 those times. The isokinetic and I don't know how 2 they did it, but isokinetic would mean that they 3 were taking the sample inlet at the same velocity 4 as the stream was flowing. 5 Q. So that the isokinetic sampler could 6 adjust the rate at which it was taking water in? 7 A. I'm not sure about that, or whether 8 it was just how they, how that sample entered the 9 system. For example, if you took the sample tube 10 and pointed it into the, into the stream, I think, 11 let's see, you would tend to be pulling it, I 12 think you would tend to be pulling in more solids 13 than was really represented. 14 By the same token, if you pointed it 15 downstream, the heavier solids were tending to go 16 by it rather than come back into it, it would tend 17 to be low, so isokinetic sampling tended to get 18 around it. Now I don't know how they did it. 19 My first statement was in error, I 20 was referring, I was thinking more in terms of 21 proportional to flow samplers. 22 Q. 23 sampler? 24 A. 25 Q. And that's yet another kind of That's right. Is it fair to say that the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7474 Page 117 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 isokinetic sampler was more accurate in terms of 2 solids, at least in terms of the sampler that you 3 developed? 4 A. It should be. 5 Q. More accurate, it would pull a more 6 representative sample of what was flowing through? 7 A. It should, depending on how it was 8 set in there. One problem in connection with 9 isokinetics is you probably have to have it right 10 at the manhole, okay. How good is the mixing 11 error? We do the best we can on the sampling. 12 Q. You solve some problems and it 13 creates new ones? 14 A. That's right. It isn't perfect. 15 MR. RICCI: This is probably a good 16 time to break for lunch. 17 (WHEREIN, a lunch recess was taken.) 18 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 19 Exhibit 37 was marked for identification by the 20 Court Reporter.) 21 MR. RICCI: Let me go back on the 22 record while Mr. Hodges is looking at the 23 document. 24 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, you've 25 been handed a document that's been marked as TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7475 Page 118 ________________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94________ _____________ 1 Hodges 37 for identification, it's a document with 2 Bates' Number CER 09817. This is a memo from 3 Chester Moore to a number of people including 4 yourself dated February 4, 1972, is that correct? 5 A. That's right. 6 Q. Who is Chester Moore? 7 A. I think he was in our Technical 8 Services Department. I don't remember his 9 connection with the pollution control effort. 10 Q. He was technical services, 11 Krummrich? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Are you familiar with the report 14 submitted to EPA that's an attachment to this 15 document? 16 A. No, I don't recall it at all. 17 Q. Do you know if you had any 18 involvement in preparation of this document? 19 A. I don't believe so. 20 Q. It appears from this memo that you 21 were provided with three copies of the document? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Would the review and evaluation of 24 this document have been part of your responsibilities in the position that you held in TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7476 Page 119 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 February of 1972? 2 A. Not specifically. 3 Q. Why were you provided a copy, 4 actually three copies? 5 MR. HEINEMAN: If you know. I 6 object to that as calling for spectaculation 7 unless you know. Do you have any idea why you got 8 a copy of it? 9 THE WITNESS: Because I had general 10 responsibilities toward pollution control 11 authorities, and that sort of thing. 12 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, flip 13 over, if you could, to the document with Bates 14 Number Page CER 098179. 15 A. How far along is that? 16 Q. Oh about that far, the page is 167 I 17 want you to go to 179. 18 A. Where are these numbers that you're 19 referring to? 20 Q. These little ones right here and 21 they're in different pages. 22 A. What was the number? 23 Q. Let me look at the front page of 24 yours for a second? Can I take a look at this? 'ic (WHEREIN, a brief discussion was TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7477 Page 120 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 held off the record.) 2 MR. RICCI: Back on the record. I 3 believe I may have misstated the Bates' number of 4 Hodges 37. It is, in fact, CER 082375, and it is 5 a multipage document with the last page as Bates 6 Number CER 082487. 7 MR. HEINEMAN: 487? 8 MR. RICCI: 407. 9 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 10 direct your attention to the page of this document 11 with Bates number CER 082387. This appears to be 12 a chart with some values for various constituents 13 of discharge from the Krummrich facility. Is that 14 a fair statement? 15 A. That's what it appears to be. 16 Q. Now up in the top there's a 17 discharge serial number box that's filled in 001. 18 Do you know what that discharge serial number 19 refers to? 20 A. No. 21 Q. If you go down the chart there's a 22 line for lead total, and the indication from this 23 chart is that the maximum concentration on lead is 24 4,700 and the maximum pounds per day per process 25 unit is 220. Do you see that? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7478 Page 121 ______________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 A. I see it. 2 Q. Were you aware prior to looking at 3 this document of any lead constituent in 4 Monsanto's discharge to the sewers? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you have any information as to 7 what the source of the lead indicated on this 8 document might be? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Did you ever do any investigation or 11 evaluation of lead constituents in Monsanto's 12 discharge from the Krummrich facility? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Do you know if lead or any compounds 15 containing lead were used in any of Monsantos 16 processes at Krummrich? 17 A. I can't think of any, I doubt it 18 very much. 19 Q. Why is that? 20 A. I'm just not aware of any. 21 Q. If you could flip over five pages 22 from where you are right now. 23 MR. HEINEMAN: Can I see this just a 24 moment, please? 25 THE WITNESS: Is it 91? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7479 Page 122 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 MR. HEINEMAN: It's up more. 2 THE WITNESS: 92? 3 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) There you go. 4 5 lead. A. I'm trying to recall where we used 6 Q. It doesn't ring a bell for you? 7 A. Huh-uh. 8 Q. On the page that we've just flipped 9 over to which is 082392, at the bottom there is a 10 box to describe waste abatement practices, do you 11 see that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And there is an entry, all waste : 14 streams discharge to the Sauget Village Waste 15 Treatment Plant for further treatment, do you see 16 that? Did you see that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now this document is dated, it was 19 provided to you on February 4, 1972. Do you know 20 what kind of treatment the Sauget Village waste treatment plant was engaging in at or around February of 1972? A. I'm not certain. We had the primary treatment at Sauget Village. My memory is that we went onto an East St. Louis plant, but I'm fuzzy TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007480 Page 123 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ , 1 on that. 2 Q. On the date or the fact of that? 3 A. When we did it, and I vaguely 4 remember that the results from that plant weren't 5 very good because it wasn't well run. That's my 6 memory of it. 7 Q. Mr. Hodges, were you familiar with 8 an individual by the name of R.M. Blowers? 9 A. Who is that? Dick Blowers, he was 10 at the plant, I think he was in the laboratory. 11 Q. Do you know if he had any 12 involvement in the PCB Reduction Program? 13 A. I don't recall. 14 Q. Do you recall a meeting with the EPA 15 in Washington, in April of 1972 regarding PCBs? 16 A. I don't recall it. 17 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 18 Exhibit 38 was marked for identification by the 19 Court Reporter.) 20 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges. Let me 21 show you a document that's been marked as Hodges 22 38, this document has Bates number CER 013072. 23 Mr. Hodges, this document appears to 24 be minutes of a meeting that occurred in April of 25 1972 that you attended, this document is a number TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7481 Page 124 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 of attendees at this meeting, who is F. J. 2 Holzapfel? 3 A. At that time he was the Director of 4 Manufacturing for the Organic Division, as I 5 recall. 6 Q. Who was the next above Mr. Holzapfel 1 in the management chain? 8 A. Head of the Organic Division, and 9 I'm trying to remember his name, I don't know who 10 that was. 11 Q. Does he have a title or was he a 12 corporate V.P.? 13 A. He was probably a Vice-President, 14 but I don't remember who it was at that time. 15 Q. And who was Mr. Carder at this time? 16 A. He was in the business group. 17 Q. Which business group? 18 A. I don't know. Savage and Carder 19 with both in the business groups and I assume they 20 were different business groups. 21 Q. Were they relatively the same level? 22 A. I would say so, I think. 23 Q. There was yourself and then your 24 boss, Mr. Hosmer? 25 A. That's right. Hosmer reported to TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7482 Page 125 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94________________________ 1 Hoizapfel. 2 Q. In paragraph one of this document 3 there's a discussion of "large quantities of 4 presently wasted HC1 are being drowned to the 5 sewer from several operations The HCl is mostly 6 from chlorination of organics." 7 Do you know first of all, does this 8 document refer to the Krummrich plant? 9 A. I'm sure it does. Yes, it's in the 10 title. 11 Q. Do you know which departments were 12 being addressed in paragraph one of this document? 13 A. There were a number of them, and I 14 don't recall all of them. PCB is one, 15 Benzylchloride was one, chlorobenzenes was 16 another, and there were probably others. 17 Q. Chlorophenol? 18 A. Yeah, chlorophenol. 19 Q. He states the HCl is mostly from 20 chlorination of organics and is saturated (at 21 least) with the organics. 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. Do you know what he means when he says saturated at least with the organics? A. What he meant there was that, okay, TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007483 Paqe 126 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 there is some dissolved in just sort of part of 2 the HCl, and the at least refers to any that went 3 along just by way of entrainment. 4 Q. So that would have been more or less 5 droplets of organics? 6 A. Mist, perhaps, or something. 7 Q. And then he states the organics go 8 to the river, is that by way of the sewers? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Flip over to the next page. In 11 paragraph 5, there is a recommended course of 12 action with respect to collecting and selling all 13 of the muriatic acid which I assume is another 14 name for HCl, possibly, and to sewer only 15 thoroughly cleaned-up HCl. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you know if any steps were taken 18 to further that goal or that recommendation? 19 A. I don't remember. 20 Q. Do you recall if any kind of central 21 absorption facility was ever installed at the 22 Krummrich facility? 23 A. Central what? 24 Q. Absorption? 7A A. Not that I know of. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7484 Page 127 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 Q. At the bottom of page two in 2 paragraph three there's a reference to a process 3 called adiabatic absorption, or an adiabatic 4 absorber system. 5 A. I see it. 6 Q. Do you know what that is? 7 A. I don't know what it means. 8 Q. Do you know if any such system was 9 ever put in place at Krummrich? 10 A. No, I don't know. 11 Q. On page three under the heading 12 actions planned, there is a statement that 13 Arochlor production will be tied to CS, and I 14 believe CS stands for chlorosulfonic acid usage, 15 so that no HC1 will be sewered in the Arochlor 16 area. Do you know if that action was ever 17 implemented? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. Under paragraph two there are some 20 actions that Homer Carter will undertake with 21 respect to HCl collection and clean up, do you 22 know if any of those actions were ever actually 23 undertaken? 24 A. That, I don't know. 25 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO . HARTOLDMON0007485 Page 128 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 Exhibit 39 was marked for identification by the 2 Court Reporter.) 3 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, I'm 4 handing you a document which has been marked as 5 Hodges 39, the document has Bates Number CER 6 099648, and I would ask you to take a look at 7 that. 8 A. Do I need to look at the whole 9 thing? 10 Q. No, let me key on what we're looking 11 for here. First of all, this is a document dated 12 June 20, 1972, from a Mr. S. McWilliams. Do you 13. know who Mr. McWilliams is? 14 A. I didn't know him. He's apparently 15 Tech Services Department. 16 Q. At Krummrich? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Is that your handwriting at the top 19 of this document, the first page? 20 A. No. 21 Q. The document enclosed is a copy of a 22 presentation given on June 9, 1972 concerning 23 Krummrich HC1 recovery plans. Did you attend that 24 meeting, do you know? 25 A. I don't remember. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007486 Page 129 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 Q. You were copied on this memo, is 2 that correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. If you flip over to page two of the 5 memo, I'm sorry, page two Bates Number 099650. 6 There is a list under the heading Results to Date. 7 Do you know if each of the departments included in 8 that list were departments which had a potential 9 to discharge HC1 and Organics to the sewer? 10 A. I recognize some of these. 11 Q. Okay. 233 is what? 12 A. That was chlorobenzenes. 13 Q. I believe you testified earlier that 14 chlorobenzenes did present the potential to 15 discharge HC1 with organics to the sewers? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And 246 we've talked about, and I 18 believe you testified previously that you're not 19 familiar with 248. 20 A. That's right. 21 Q. What about 236/7? 22 A. That was the Chlorophenol 23 Department, as I recall. 24 Q. They would also have a potential to 25 discharge HC1 to the sewers? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7487 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 130 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What about 239? 3 A. I don't remember what that was. 4 Q. 217? 5 A. That was the Chlorosulfonic Acid 6 Department. 7 Q. And then there is another reference 8 to Adiabatic Absorber, that doesn't refresh your 9 recollection as to what that was? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Or as to whether it was ever 12 installed? 13 A. No. 14 Q. What about Department 218? 15 A. I don't know what that was. Except 16 it says this food grade muriatic acid. I don't 17 know, well, I don't know what that is. 18 Q. Do you have any recollection of any 19 of the issues discussed in this memo in terms of 20 HC1, reduction of HC1 discharges through the 21 sewers? A. I don't think so. I just don't remember this plan at all. (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 40 was marked for identification by the TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007488 Page 131 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 Court Reporter.) 2 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Let me show you a 3 document that's marked as Hodges 40 for 4 identification, this is a document with Bates 5 Number CER 014340 and ask that you take a look at 6 it. My question specifically will refer to just 7 the first page of the document. 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. Mr. Hodges in paragraph 1 (C) on the 10 first -- let me go back for a second, this is a 11 memo from Mr. Stewart to Mr. Savage dated October 12 2, 1972, and you're copied on this document, is 13 that correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. On the first page, paragraph 1 (C) 16 there's a statement, "September rains were above 17 normal and probably was a factor in PCB flow to 18 Waste Treatment Plant as PCBs from ground are 19 leached with rain water", do you see that. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you agree with the statement that 22 PCBs from the ground are leached with rain water? 23 A. As I read it, I doubt if there was 24 any factual basis for it. Q. Why is that? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7489 Page 132 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 A. Because PCBs are insoluble, or to 2 say the least, I think the amounts would be very, r 3 very small. 4 Q. Would the statement be more accurate 5 if instead of using the word leached it used the 6 word washed or picked up into the sewers from the 7 rain water? Do you understand what I'm asking 8 you? 9 A. That might be a better statement. 10 Again, I don't think there were any facts on it. 11 Q. Do you have any idea as to what 12 affect, if any, rains would have on the flow of 13 PCBs in the sewer system? 14 A. Only in that they might tend to 15 flush out a little more of the PCBs which might be 16 lying in manholes. 17 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 18 Exhibit 41 was marked for identification by the 19 Court Reporter.) 20 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 21 show you a document that's been marked as Hodges 22 41 and ask you to take a look at it. This is a 23 document with Bates Number CER 015077 24 A. All right. 25 Q. Mr. Hodges, this is a document dated TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMON0007490 Page 133 _________PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 September 24, 1983 from yourself to Mr. Heisler 2 and Mr. Hippe. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Is that your signature on the second 5 page of the document? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What position did Mr. Hippe hold in 8 September of 1973? 9 A. I think he was the head of the Tech 10 Services Department or at least a group of the 11 Tech Services Department. 12 Q. At Krummrich? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. In the last paragraph on the first 15 page you state near elimination of the background 16 loss will be very difficult, technically, and may 17 be very expensive to accomplish once we know where 18 it originates and what to do about it. Do you see 19 that? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What are you referring to when you 22 say background loss? 23 A. Wherever these PCBs were coming from 24 that we didn't know the source, it was obviously 25 not our processes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7491 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 134 1 Q. Background references, back to the 2 discrepancy of what you were showing coining off on 3 your production and what was going into the 4 Village Treatment Plant? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. Do you know what steps, if any, were 7 taken at the plant level as a result of this memo? 8 A. I don't remember. 9 Q. Do you know whether Monsanto was 10 ever able to identify the source of the 11 discrepancy? 12 A. I don't know. I don't remember. 13 (WHEREIN, Plaintiff's Deposition 14 Exhibit 42 was marked for identification by the 15 Court Reporter.) 16 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, let me 17 show you a document that's been marked as Hodges 18 42. This a document with Bates Number CER 014618? 19 A. What did you want me to look at? 20 Q. Just the first four pages. Actually 21 I can ask you a couple questions and shortcut it. 22 This is a document dated February 21, 1974 from 23 Mr. Stewart to Mr. Heisler, and you're copied on 24 this document, is that correct? 25 A. Yes. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7492 _________ Page 135 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 _________________________ 1 Q. If you look at the bottom of the 2 second page of the document, there is a table 1, 3 which identified monitoring locations and 4 discharge levels. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. I believe that's discharge levels of 7 Arochlors at the various locations. 8 A. 9 that it is. It doesn't say, but I would assume 10 Q. Well, the heading of that page of 11 the document is PCB Loss Control Data. 12 A. That's reasonable to assume. 13 Q. The table contains across the top 14 various years starting with 1969 and then each 15 line references a different sampling location. In 16 the first column for 1969 under the line for the 17 Sauget Waste Treatment Plant influent there is an 18 indication of between 1100 and 600 pounds per day. 19 Do you see that? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Now there's no data on this chart 22 for years prior to 1969, is there? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Is it fair to say that prior to 1969 25 the amount of PCBs going to the Sauget Waste TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7493 Page 136 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 Treatment Plant would be at or around the levels 2 indicated in 1969? 3 A. I don't know, it's a reasonable 4 assumption, but I don't know. 5 Q. As far as you know, Monsanto had 6 taken no steps to reduce the amount of Arochlors 7 going into the sewers prior to 1969, had they? 8 A. I don't know. I'm sure we were 9 interested in maximum yields, to say the least, 10 and there may have been steps to improve those 11 yields, but I don't know. 12 Q. You're not aware of any such steps? 13 A. No. 14 Q. On page three of this document under 15 paragraph 2(B) there's a reference to Department 16 236 off-gas, do you know what Department 236 is? 17 A. I believe that's the Chlorophenols. 18 Q. Okay. I asked you that, I 19 apologize. On the next page there's a map, it's 20 referred to or described on page 3 in the first 21 paragraph, and then the map itself is on the next 22 page. Are you able to interpret this map? 23 A. To some degree, I'm not sure what 24 the significance of this all is. It looks like a 25 very abbreviated sewer map. TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7494 Page 137 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94________ :__________________ 1 Q. Can you identify on this map the 24- 2 and the 30-inch sewer line? 3 A. I don't recall, I think the -- no, I 4 can't really, it could be either one of those two 5 lines. 6 MR. RICCI: If we can take a short 7 break, I'm pretty close to being done. 8 (WHEREIN, a short recess was taken.) 9 MR. RICCI: I have a couple 10 follow-up questions. 11 Q. (By Mr. Ricci) Mr. Hodges, are you 12 aware of a decision by Monsanto sometime in the 13 1970s to discontinue production of PCBs for 14 certain applications? 15 A. I'm aware that we stopped production 16 of it. I don't know the details. I'm guessing I 17 was in Belgium at the time. 18 Q. You're aware that you stopped 19 production totally. 20 A. As far as I know. 21 Q. I'm trying to go back in time. Are 22 you aware of a point, prior to the time that all 23 PCB production was terminated, to a decision by 24 Monsanto to stop producing PCBs other than for 25 transformer and capacitor uses? TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7495 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94 Page 138 1 A. I don't recall. 2 Q. When were you in Belgium? 3 A. I went there in 1975. 4 Q. And how long were you over there? 5 A. Three and a half years. 6 Q. Do you recall when in 1975? 7 A. It was fairly late. I think it was 8 October. 9 Q. So you were, you had no involvement 10 in PCB reduction or PCB controls or in fact, 11 anything PCB during the time that you were in 12 Belgium? 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. When you came back from Belgium, 15 what position did you take? 16 A. A very fine position. I was 17 retired. 18 MR. RICCI: I have no further 19 questions. 20 21 MR. HEINEMAN: We'll read. 22 23 24 25 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7496 Page 139 ______________ PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ 1 STATE OF MISSOURI 2 COUNTY OF ST. LOUIS ) ) ) 3 I, PAUL B. HODGES, do hereby certify: 4 That I have read the foregoing deposition; 5 That I have made such changes in form and/or 6 substance to the within deposition as might be 7 necessary to render the same true and correct; 8 That having made such changes thereon, I 9 hereby subscribe my name to the deposition. 10 I declare under penalty of perjury that the 11 foregoing is true and correct. 12 13 Executed this { } day of { }, 14 1994, at { }, Missouri. 15 16 17 PAUL B. HODGES 18 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto 19 set my hand and seal this { } day of { >, 1994 . 20 My commission expires: 21 22 23 (Notary Public) 24 25 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7497 Page 140 PAUL B. HODGES. 6/1/94__________________________ , 1 NOTARIAL CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF MISSOURI 3 COUNTY OF JEFFERSON ) ) ) 4 I, KELLY L. WILLIS, a shorthand reporter and a duly commissioned Notary Public 5 within and for the State of Missouri, do hereby certify that there came before me at the offices 6 of COBURN, CROFT, One Mercantile Center, Suite 2900, St. Louis, MO 63101, 7 PAUL B. HODGES 8 who was by me first duly sworn to testify to the 9 truth and nothing but the truth of all knowledge touching and concerning the matters in controversy 10 in this cause; that the witness was thereupon carefully examined under oath and said examination 11 was reduced to writing by me; and that this deposition is a true and correct record of the 12 testimony given by the witness. 13 I further certify that I am neither attorney nor counsel for nor related nor employed 14 by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition is taken; further that I am not a 15 relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto or financially 16 interested in this action. 17 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and seal this 26th day of July, 1994. 18 19 1998 . My commission expires January 2nd, 20 21 (Notary Public) 22 23 24 25 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7498 (' Page 139 PAUL u. HODGES. 6/1/94_______________________ L_, 1 STATE OF MISSOURI 2 COUNTY OF ST. LOUIS ) ) ) 3 I, PAUL B. HODGES 4 That I have read the foregoing deposition; 5 That I have made such changes in form and/or 6 substance to the within deposition as might be 7 necessary to render the same true and correct; 8 That having made such changes thereon, I 9 hereby subscribe my name to the deposition. 10 I declare under penalty of perjury that the 11 foregoing is true and correct. 12 13 Executed this {.^NP } day of 14 1994, at {Colli/VSttlI/& }r ssnnr 1 JTHi/JoiS, 15 16 17 tPvA7vtUtLt B. uHnOnDpGoEcS 18 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto 19 set my hand and seal this > day of t 1994 . 20 21 /< ******<M/y'r.c*jr.omm> ; -, ission expires: /h1 ' A* Vtfd// o(b) | "OFFICIAL SBA-L" :f 22 | csoRc:r:!\;^ ci i ; 53TASV fuilUi--i \ %MY COMMISSION EXPIRES MAR 26,1837 23 24 ORIGINAL 25 TAYLOR & ASSOCIATES (314) 621-3777 * TOLL FREE (800) 280-DEPO HARTOLDMONOOQ7499 DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET NAME OF sj o i. 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Page Si to Line f <3 Should read Reason assigned for change : ^ Page Line ^ Should read cj Reason assigned for change: C/su^/e wjoy3 srnaJiUi ^ Page Line Should read Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read Reason assigned for change: SIGNATURE OF DEPONENT: HARTOLDMON0007500