Document wDDJ38vmKK9bZKbnV5mGv6VL3

Vo cc i 1 S7 i Bauer. 2 Q . Do you kno w any m e m b e r s of the 3 President's Science Advisory Committee? 4 A. I'm not sure that I do or not or if t h e s e are 5 the people here, I don't know them. 5 Q. No, t h e s e are net the m e m b e r s of the 7 P r e s i d e n t ' s S c i e n c e A d v i s o r y C o m m i t t e e . Do you k n o w 3 John Buckley? 9 A . No , I do no t . 10 Q. Do you k n o w J a m e s W a t s o n ? 11 A. No, I d o n ' t k n o w him. 12. Q . Di d y o u - - 13 MR. Y A N N A C O N E : S t a n does. 14 Q . A r e you f a m i l i a r w i t h the L i m i t e d War 15 P anel of the P r e s i d e n t ' s S c i e n c e A d v i s o r y C o m m i t t e e ? 15 A. Yes, I wa s f a m i l i a r with that, yes. 17 Q. Did you ever p a r t i c i p a t e , in any way in 13 any a c t i v i t i e s r e l a t e d to that? 19 A. N o , I d i d n ' t . 20 Q. Do you k n o w if Dr. M c N a m a r a m a d e 21 p r e s e n t a t i o n s to a L i m i t e d War P a n e l ? 22 A . I d o n ' t knew. 23 Q. May I ask you to e x a m i n e the d o c u m e n t 24 turning, past the f i rst p a ges until you r e ach a 25 h a n d w r i t t e n p o r t i o n b e g i n n i n g w i t h , I w i s h to Voce i 168 1 discuss. 2. MR. PARR: Can we go off the r e c o r d a 3 minute? 4 (Discussion off the record.) 5 BY MR. PIERCE: S Q. Do you r e c o g n i z e the h a n d w r i t i n g t h e r e ? 7 A. Yes, I d o . 8 Q. And w h o s e h a n d w r i t i n g is t h a t ? 9 A . Dr. McNamara's. 10 Q. Now, on that first page is a s t a t e m e n t , . 11 it's the second sentence. I have d i f f i c u l t y m a k in g 12 out the first w o rd, but then it says " s p e c i a l 13 i n t e r e s t is in the b utyl e s t e r s of 2 , 4 - D and 2 , 4 , 5 - T . 14 And w h y w o u l d that be? 15 MR. Y A N N A C O N E : You h a v e n ' t e s t a b l i s h e d 15 the w i t n e s s k n o w s . 17 MR. P I E R C E : If he d o e s n ' t know, h e ' l l 18 say so . 19 A. I t h i n k h e ' s r e a l l y -- I t h ink h e ' s a l l u d i n g 20 b a c k to his f i rst s e n t e n c e . 21 Q . Which is? 22 A. W h i c h is, "I w i s h to d i s c u s s i n f o r m a t i o n 23 c o n c e r n i n g the p o s s i b l e h a z a r d s of p h e n o x y a c e t a t e s 24 to man and his d o m e s t i c . . . and his d o m e s t i c a n i m a l s . " 25 Q. Do you h a v e any idea as to why the s t a t e m e n t w aga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters Wills 90 1 you saw that study? 2 A. Last n i ght. 3 Q. W e r e you a w a r e , in 19 -- any t i m e in the 4 late '60s that the National Cancer Institute was 5 having such a study performed? 6 MR. TAYLOR: O b j e c t i o n to form. 7 A. No, I d o n ' t t h i n k so. 3 Q. D o c t o r , ha v e you ever h e a r d or read a b o u t 9 any incidents concerning chloracne connected with 10 the m a n u f a c t u r e of tr i c h l o r o p h e n o l or 2 , 4 , 5 - T ? 11 MR. T A Y L O R : I'm sorry. W o u l d you read 12 that b a c k ? 13 A . No . 14 'MR. T A Y L O R : I 'm sorry. 15 (The r e c o r d is read ba c k as r e q u e s t e d . ) 16 Q. Did you a n s w e r no, d o c t o r ? 17 ( D i s c u s s i o n off the record.) 18 Q. I'll ask a g a i n the q u e s t i o n , d o c t o r , have 19 you ever h e a r d or read a b o u t any i n c i d e n t s 20 concerning chloracne connected with the man uf a c tu r e 21 of t r i c h 1 o r o p h e n o 1 or 2 , 4 , 5 - T ? 22 MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to form. 23 A . Yes . 24 Q. W h e n did you f i rst read or hear a b o u t 25 s u c h i n c i d e n t s ? * i s". i * i ^ ! n 11! Int .A . J Wills 91 1 A. Well, t r i c h l o r o p h e n o l w o u l d go b a c k p r o b a b l y to" ; 2 the early fifties. 3 Q. W h a t do you r e c a l l r e a d i n g a b o u t or 4 h e a r i n g a b o u t in the e a r l y f i f t i e s c o n c e r n i n g 5 c h l o r a c n e in the m a n u f a c t u r e of t r i c h l o r o p h e n o l ? 6 MR. TAYLOR: O b j e c t i o n to form. I think 7 that a s s u m e s -- 8 MR. M A R I A N I : Just o b j e c t as to form, 9 please. 10 MR. T A Y L O R : I t h ink you m i g h t w a n t me to 11 s t a t e my full o b j e c t i o n so that you can r e a r r a n g e 12 your qu e s t io n . 13 MR. M A R I A N I : I 'll r e p h r a s e the q u e s t i o n , 14 in any even t . 15 Q. W h a t w e r e the c i r c u m s t a n c e s , d o c t o r , 16 s u r r o u n d i n g your h e a r i n g or r e a d i n g a b o u t that 17 i n c i d e n t in the e a r l y f i f t i e s ? 18 MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to form. The 19 r e a s o n I 'm o b j e c t i n g is I t hink it's u n c l e a r w h e t h e r 20 he's s a y i n g he h e a r d a b o u t c h l o r a c n e and TCP or 21 2 , 4 , 5 - T in the e a r l y f i f t i e s or w h e t h e r as his \ 22 t e s t i m o n y states, he heard TCP goes back to 1950. 23 MR. M A R I A N I : I d o n ' t t hink -- that m i g h t 24 be u n c l e a r in your m i n d but I d o n ' t think it's 25 u n c l e a r in a n y b o d y e l s e ' s m i n d . i / i n r l pr>SnAlli r a r tifia H ch rvriK n n H rar^ A rfare Wills 92 1 MR. COHEN: I think you should not 2 c l u t t e r the r e c o r d w i t h c o m m e n t s . S i m p l y o b j e c t to 3 form in a c c o r d a n c e w i t h the S p e c i a l M a s t e r ' s 4 d i r e c t i o n s . I, for one, w o u l d a p p r e c i a t e that. 5 MR. T A Y L O R : I tend to a g r e e w i t h you. 6 Si n c e I do it i n f r e q u e n t l y , I only do it this time 7 in the h o p e s that we w o u l d get this issue c l a r i f i e d . 8 A. Well, there w e r e s i m p l y r e p o r t s that c h l o r a c n e 9 o c c u r r e d in the workers-. 10 Q. Did you read t h e s e r e p o r t s in the e a r l y 11 f i f t i e s ? 12 A. I t h i n k I saw some in the e a r l y f i f t i e s . 13 Q. Do you k n o w w h e t h e r t r i c h l o r o p h e n o l is an 14 i n t e r m e d i a t e in the p r o d u c t i o n of 2 , 4 , 5 - T ? 15 MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n 'to form. 16 A . Y e s . 17 Q. Did y ou k n o w t h a t in the 1 9 5 0 s ? 18 MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to form. 19 A. No, I d o n ' t t h ink I did. 20 Q. W h e n did you first know that 21 t r i c h l o r o p h e n o l is an i n t e r m e d i a t e in the p r o d u c t i o n 22 of 2,4,5-T? 23 A. P r o b a b l y -- I c a n ' t be c e r t a i n , but it seems to 24 me that that was -- that the p r o d u c t i o n of 2 , 4 , 5 - T 25 was c o n s i d e r e d in this m e e t i n g that we talked about u/i-tnn n n rt sn in elli certified shorthand reporters ' W iW illllss * * 93 1 earlier, '63 meeti n g . 2 Q . At Edg e wood . 3 A. U m - h u m . 4 q . is it your t e s t i m o n y that that is when 5 you learned that t r i c h l o r o p h e n o l .was an i n t e r m e d ia t e 6 to 2 , 4 , 5 - T ? 7 MR. T A Y L O R ; O b j e c t i o n to form. 8 A. I t h i n k t h a t ' s w h e n I l e a r n e d it. I'm not 9 c e r t a i n of it. 10 MR. T A Y L O R : M o v e to s t r i k e the 11 spec u 1 a t io n . 12 MR. COHEN: To the c o n t r a r y , it's the 13 w i t n e s s ' b e s t r e c o 1 1 e c t i o n . 14 Q. D o c t o r , w h a t was the s u b s t a n c e of t h ose -- 15 was it m o r e t h a n one a r t i c l e that you read 16 c o n c e r n i n g c h l o r a c n e in the p r o d u c t i o n of 17 t r i c h i o r o p h e n o l , if you r e c a l l ? 18 A. Yes, I t h i n k t h ere w e r e two or three, at least. 19 Q. Do you r e c a l l the n a m e s of any of those 20 a r t i c l e s ? 21 A. Not s p e c i f i c a l l y , no. 22 Q. But you do r e c a l l that it was in the 23 e a r l y 1950s, is that c o r r e c t ? 24 MR. T A Y L O R : O b j e c t i o n to form, a s k e d and 25 a n s w e r e d . * w aga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters ------------- . ---------------------------- ; p : Wills' 97 1 significant fact? 2 MR. TAYLOR: O b j e c t i o n to form. Y o u ' r e 3 asking this w i t n e s s to act as an expert when he's i4 not b e e n q u a l i f i e d . 5 MR. MAR IAN I : That's not true, I'm asking 6 him for his o p i n i o n as D i r e c t o r - 7 MR. TAYLOR: F ur th erm or e you're asking 8 h i m to s p e c u l a t e . 9 MR. M A R I A N I : -- of P h y s i o l o g y . 10 Q. You can a n s w e r the q u e s t i o n , d o c t o r , if 11 you, can u n d e r s t a n d it. Can you read the1 q u e s t i o n " 12 b a ck, p l e a s e ? 13 A. Yes, I t h i n k I u n d e r s t a n d it. 14 MS. R O B E R T S : Do you w a n t to he a r the 15 q u e s t i o n b a c k ? 16 THE W I T N E S S : No, I k n o w w h a t the 17 q u e s t i o n was. 18 MS. R O B E R T S : O k a y . . 19 MR. T A Y L O R : I'd like to h a v e that 20 q u e s t i o n read b a c k b e f o r e you a n s w e r it. 21 (The r e c o r d is read b a c k as r e q u e s t e d . ) 22 Q. For the p u r p o s e s of that m e e t i n g . . 23 A. For the p u r p o s e s of the m e e t i n g , it was not a^ 24 s i g n i f i c a n t fact. I t 's a s i g n i f i c a n t fact for the 25 m a n u f a c t u r e r , but not for the Army. w a a a a n d SDinelli certified shorthand reoorters ! II (.J ' Wills O 98 1 Q. Why do you a n s w e r t h a t way, d o c t o r ? 2 A. W e ll, the A r m y ' s p u r p o s e is to p r o t e c t its own 3 p e r s o n n e l who w o u l d not be i n v o l v e d in the* 4 ' manufacture. 5 MS. TUOHY: Could you read the doctor's 6 answer back, again? 7 (The r e c o r d is read b a c k as r e q u e s t e d . ) 8 MR. MARIANI: Doctor, thank you. At this 9 point, I don't think I have any more questions. I 10 a p p r e c i a t e your time, today. 11 MS. R O B E R T S : Y o u ' r e not d o n e yet. 12 MR. M A R I A N I : M a y b e we c o u l d take a -- 13 l e t ' s take a o n e - m i n u t e b r e a k , okay, and then some 14 of the o t h e r a t t o r n e y s m a y h a v e some q u e s t i o n s for 15 you. 16 (Short recess.) 17 E X A M I N A T I O N 18 BY MR. M A R O T H Y : 19 Q. Dr. W i l l s , my n a m e is C h r i s t o p h e r M a r o t h y , 20 I r e p r e s e n t one of the D e f e n d a n t s in this a c t i o n . I 21 b e l i e v e you p r e v i o u s l y t e s t i f i e d that in 1967, you 22 l e a r n e d a b o u t d i o x i n and c h a r a c t e r i z e d it as a hot 23 t o p i c . W o u l d you p l e a s e e x p a n d on w h a t you m e a n by 24 hot t o p i c ? * 25 A. W ell, w h a t I m e a n is that the q u e s t i o n of w aga and spinelli certified shorthand reporters