Document wD637qnKMvrBVG11jex353gdQ

Superior Court of the State of California For the County of Los Angeles TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE ) COMPANY, ) Plaintiff, ) ) ) vs. ) ) MONSANTO COMPANY and ) DOES 1 through 200, inclusive, ) Defendant ) ) Case No. BC 026959 Volume I June 11, 1992 Deposition of ROBERT ELLIS KELLER, taken on behalf ofPlaintiff. i GORE REPORTING COMPANY Boatmen's Tower, Suite 1175 -100 North Broadway St Louis, Missouri 63102 (314) 241-6750 STLCOPCB4026826 Superior Court of the State of California 2 For the County of Los Angeles 3 4 TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE 5 COMPANY, 6 Plaintiff , 7 8 ) No. BC 026959 9 1 0 MONSANTO COMPANY and 1 1 DOES 1 through 200, 1 2 inclusive, 1 3 Defendants . 14 15 1 6 Volume I 17 18 1 9 Deposition of ROBERT ELLIS KELLER, 2 0 taken on behalf of Plaintiff, at the offices 21 of Bryan, Cave, McPheeters & McRoberts, 500 22 North Broadway in the City of St. Louis , 23 State of Missouri, on the 11th day of June, 2 4 1 9 9 2, before J . Bryan Jordan, certified 2 5 shorthand reporter and notary public . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 STLCOPCB4026827 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 M jj 9I I 10 11 12 13 h 1 4 I; II 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 APPEARANCES: FOR THE PLAINTIFF: James P. Tallon, Esq. Shearman & Sterling 21st Floor 725 SouthFigueroa Street Los Angeles, California 90017 ( 2 1 3) 2 3 9-0 3 0 0 Ms. Christie Patrick Senior Counsel ENRON Interstate Pipeline Company 1400 Smith Street P. 0. Box 1188 Houston, Texas 77251-1188 FOR THE DEFENDANTS: Donald F. Zimmer, Jr., Esq. Bronson, Bronson & McKinnon 505 Montgomery Street San Francisco , California 94111-2514 (415) 986-4200 I GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 3 STLCOPCB4026828 1 INDEX 2 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. TALLON 4 5 EXHIBITS 6 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 7 8 7 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 7 9 8 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 8 0 9 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 8 1 1 0 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 8 2 1 1 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 8 3 1 2 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 8 4 1 3 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 8 5 1 4 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 8 6 1 5 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 8 7 1 6 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 8 8 1 7 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 8 9 1 8 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 9 0 1 9 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 9 1 2 0 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 9 2 2 1 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 9 3 2 2 Plaintiff- s Exhibit 2 9 4 2 3 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 9 5 2 4 Plaintiff- s Exhibit 2 9 6 2 5 Plaintiff ' s Exhibit 2 97 PAGE 5 30 32 48 53 75 84 85 10 8 110 12 8 13 9 14 6 16 7 17 1 17 4 17 6 19 1 19 4 197 209 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 4 STLCOPCB4026829 1 Whereupon. 2 ROBERT ELLIS KELLER, 3 of sound mind, having been first duly sworn 4 to tell the truth, the whole truth, and 5 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid, 6 testified upon his oath as follows, to-wit: 7 EXAMINATION 8 QUESTIONS BY MR. TALLON: 9 Q. Please state your full name for 1 0 the record. 1 1 A. Robert Ellis Keller, K-e-l-l-e-r. 1 2 Q. And please describe your education 1 3 for us. 1 4 A . B . A. degree in chemistry, 1 5 University of Iowa; M.S. degree, chemistry; 1 6 University of Iowa, Ph.D. degree in 1 7 chemistry, University of Iowa. 1 8 Q In what year did you receive your 1 9 Bachelor ' s from the University of Iowa? 20 A. 1947 . 2 1 Q. And in what year did you receive 2 2 your Mas ter's? 2 3 A . '49. 2 4 Q. And in what year was your Ph.D. 2 5 conferred? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 5 ' ` '' ' STLCOPCB4026830 -L A . '51. Q. In what yeardid you begin working 3 for Monsanto Company? 4 A . 1 9 5 3. '52. 5 Q. Did you begin work with the 6 Monsanto Company after finishing your degree, 7 your Ph.D. degree? 8 A. Yes. I had -- between the degree 9 and Monsanto, I had two years with Smith, 1 0 Kline & French Laboratories in Philadelphia. 11 Q. As a research chemist? 1 2 A. Yes, senior research chemist . 1 3 Q. Dr. Keller, you have beendeposed 1 4 before in another case like this? 1 5 A. Yes. 1 6 Q. Was it in one case or in more than 17 one case? 1 8 A . More than one case. 1 9 Q. In about how many cases would you 2 0 say you have given a deposition? 21 A. About two. 2 2 Q. And do you recollect the names of 2 3 either of those two cases? 24 One I do The other, not 2 5 specifically GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026831 1 Q What is the name of the case that 2 you remember? 3 A. Outboard Marine. 4 Q. Did the other case have anything 5 to do with polychlorinated biphenyls? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And can you briefly describe for 8 me the nature of that action? 9 A. Very briefly, as I recollect, 1 0 involved a building in San Francisco that had 11 been contaminated by equipment where Monsanto 1 2 product had been used. I can't tell you much 1 3 more than that. 1 4 MR. ZIMMER: I can help on that 1 5 one. It was the One Market Plaza litigation, 1 6 and his transcript was sealed along with that 17 of all witnesses taken on behalf of other 1 8 parties pursuant to an ADR confidentiality 1 9 agreement . 2 0 MR. TALLON : Are you using the t 2 1 term "ADR" to refer to alternate dispute 2 2 resolution? 2 3 MR. ZIMMER: That's correct. And 2 4 anticipating your next question , that ' s why 2 5 you didn't receive a copy of that particular GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS, MISSOURI 7 STLCOPCB4026832 i 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 j; 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 transcript but I believe you did of the Outboard Marine transcript. MR. TALLON: That's correct. BY MR. TALLON: Q. Just briefly, Dr. Keller, when you referred to the building in San Francisco as having been contaminated, what about it was contaminated? A . I really didn't get involved, That wasn t my role. I can't recall. Q. Do you remember what it was th a t your testimony went to, what subjects you talked about in your deposition? A. Primarily, what Monsanto knew about PCB's and when. Was there a particular Aroclor o r aroclors that you were discussing during the course of your testimony in that matter? A. I don't recall which Aroclor produ c t was involved . I think there was a 1 range of aroclors discussed. Q. Dr. Keller, are you a member of any society for chemists or any professional society? A. The principal one is the American 1 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 8 STLCOPCB4026833 1 Chemical Society. 2 Q. Are you a member ofthatsociety 3 today? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And have youbeen for some time? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q Approximate ly how long? 8 A . Forty-five yea r s . 9 Q . Have you ev e r held any p o s i t i o n s 1 0 as an off icer or direc tor o f that s o c i e t y ? 1 1 A . Chairman of 1 o cal s e c t i o n s 1 2 Q Have you ev e r written f o r 1 3 publicati on by the Arne r i c a n , that i s to say 1 4 in a pub 1 i c a t i o n sponsored by the American 1 5 Chemical Society? 1 6 A . Yes. 1 7 Q On how many occasions? 1 8 A . Twenty , twenty-five. 1 9 Q When you are referring to those 2 0 twenty to twenty-five occasions, are you 2 1 referring to technical papers that have been 2 2 published in a memorandum form or in a 2 3 booklet form by the American Chemical Society 2 4 or something else? 2 5 A. Technical papers published in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 9 STLCOPCB4026834 1 2 .!> 4 5 6 !! !| 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 " ji 1 4 || I! i| 1 5 ji '( 1 6 ij ij 1 7 j| ii 18 19 20 21 22 23 i 24 25 their technical journals. Q. Have any of the papers that you have published in concert with the American Chemical Society addressed in broad terms the subject of PCB's? A . No . Q. Have you ever written a publication in any other forum? A . No . Q When first you began work at Monsanto Company in 1952, were you here i n St. Louis A. Yes,Iwas. Q. And what position did you assume . upon entering employment with Monsanto? A. Senior research chemist in the R & D department of the Organic Chemicals Division of Monsanto. Q. And broadly speaking, could you tell me what responsibilities you had as a senior research chemist when you began work with Monsanto in 1952? A. It was primarily to develop analytical methods which could be used to support development of products and processes GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026835 -I out of the division. 2 Q. For approximately how long did you 3 hold the position as senior research chemist 4 in the Research and Development Department of 5 the Organic Chemicals Division? 6 A. Two years. 7 Q. And then what position did you 8 take on? 9 A. I was promoted to project leader. 1 0 Q. And what did the responsibilities 1 1 of project leader entail for you in 1954? 1 2 A. Expanded responsibilities of the 1 3 senior research chemist function. 1 4 Q. And what expanded responsibilities 1 5 were they? 1 6 A. Broader projects, assignment of 1 7 one or two or more people. 1 8 Q. Assignment of one or two or more 1 9 people meaning that people now reported to 2 0 you for the first time? ,. 2 1 A . Yes, mm-hmm. 2 2 Q Was there one or two, o r more? 2 3 A . One or two . 2 4 Q How long were you in the position 2 5 as project leader? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 11 STLCOPCB4026836 1 A . Two years . 2 Q. Untilapproximately 1956? 3 A. Yes, that would be right, '55 and 4 '56. 5 Q. Andwhatposition did you take on 6 in 1956? 7 A . That was research g r o u p leader 8 Q Was that also in the 0 r g a n i c 9 Chemicals D i v i s ion? 1 0 A. Yes. 1 1 Q. And I was assuming, but simply to 1 2 make clear, was your position as project 1 3 leader also in the Organic Chemicals 1 4 Division? 1 5 A. Yes, mm-hmm. All of these are in 1 6 the Organic Chemicals Division until I tell 1 7 you different, at least. 1 8 Q. Thank you. What were your 1 9 responsibilities as research group leader, 2 0 beginning in 1956? "r 2 1 A. That was concurrent with the 2 2 establishment of a formal analytical group, 2 3 and as part of that, it involved expanded 2 4 analytical projects and support of division 2 5 research; increased personnel assignment. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 STLCOPCB4026837 2 ~i 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 !i 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 How long did you hold that position as research group leader? A . Six years. Q That was until about -- Q 1962? A . '62, m m - h m m , right. Q in 1962? And what position did you take on A. Senior -- or -- senior research group leader. Q. And what responsibilities did you have in that role? A. It was continued to be expanded responsibilities with expanding analytical into what's called spectroscopy. Q . For the record. Doctor, could you please define spectroscopy? A. That's an instrumental technique used for primarily analysis of di f f e r e n t materials for components. Q. Is that different than gas chromatography? A. Yes. Q. Was gas chromatography available as an analytical tool in 1962? I i i GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 STLCOPCB4026838 . Yes. Q . Doctor, if you can, would you 3 please define for me the term chlorinated 4 hydrocarbons ? 5 MR. ZIMMER: As he sits here 6 today, or at any particular point in time? 7 MR. TALLOW: Right now. 8 A. Chlorinated hydrocarbons, to me, 9 is some combination of carbon, chlorine and 1 0 hydrogen . 1 1 BY MR. TALLON: 1 2 Q. To you as a chemist, does the term 1 3 "chlorinated hydrocarbons" include the family 1 4 known as polychlorinated biphenyls? 1 5 A . It can. 1 6 Q . Does it also include compounds 1 7 other than polychlorinated biphenyls? 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q. How long were you in your position 2 0 as senior research group lea d.e r ? 2 1 A . Four years. 2 2 Q Until 1966 or so? 2 3 A . ' 6 , right. 2 4 Q . And what position 25 1966? GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 i STLCOPCB4026839 A . Section manager. 2 Q. Of what section? 3 A. In the first year it started out 4 was physical analytical and instrument 5 development section. 6 Q. And in 1966, what was the business ' 7 of that section? 8 A. To -- this was a continuing 9 support of Organic Division R & D. 1 0 Q. What manner of support? ; I j ! j 1 1 A. Through technology and techniques 1 2 supplied by the groups that I mentioned that 1 3 make up the section, analytical, instrument 1 4 development, spectroscopy. . 15 Q. For example, what did those , 16 sections do to support the Organic Chemicals : 1 7 Division? 1 8 A. All right, the instrument group i ! ! 19 developed primarily process instruments for ; 2 0 monitoring plant processes. The analytical 2 1 group was, as I described earlier, directed 22 toward development of methodology and 2 3 application of same for support of R & D. The 2 4 spectroscopy group, same direction through 2 5 instrument techniques, excluding gas GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 STLCOPCB4026840 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 i, 1 6 li 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 chromatography. Q. Did you exclude gas chromatography from your description of the responsibilities of the instrument group because somebody else was doing it or b.e cause no one else was doing it? A. Well, the instrument group was a group committed to producing an end product, if you will, a piece of hardware, so it, that group could use gas chromatography but the other groups, analytical, for example, would use gas chromatography for analysis of matrices of materials to get data on a batch basis . Q How long did you hold your position as section manager? A . Three years. Q Until 1969 or so? A . '69. And during the course of that, the last two years, the'-*-- i t went from the name I gave you as a section t o "appl i e d sciences s e c t i o n ." The last two years of those three years, I was a section manager. Q. And in 1969, what position did you take on? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 STLCOPCB4026841 i 1 A . Manager of Applied Sciences. 2 Q. How did that differ with what you 1 had done immediately beforehand? 4 A. Part of the same and more. 5 Q. What was the "more"? 6 A. Okay, let me just add to this. At 7 that point in time, this was 1970, the 8 company had restructured and the Organic 9 Chemicals Division, of which up till this 1 0 point I'd been part of, was put together with 1 1 the Inorganic Division of Monsanto and made 1 2 into an operating company unit called 1 3 Monsanto Industrial Chemicals. At that 1 4 point, 1970, then the function of applied 1 5 sciences was created to provide full support 1 6 across its larger function of Monsanto 1 7 Industrial Chemicals. 1 8 To the previous groups that I've 1 9 commented then were added -- well, let me 2 0 preface, there were two functions in the 2 1 inorganic chemicals division: Research and 2 2 instrument group and analytical group. These 2 3 two were joined together, then, as one unit. 2 4 Additionally, we had a computer 2 5 sciences group, applied math, radiochemistry, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026842 full r adiochem istry with an N R C broad 2 1 i c e n s e, so that we had a c o m p 1 ementary suppor ting skills put tog ether as a broad 4 base f rom that point on, and I was in that 5 p o s i t i on for eleven years 6 Q. You were in th e p o s i tio n as 7 Manage r of Applied Scienc e s ? 8 A. Applied Scienc e s for Monsanto 9 I n d u s t rial Chemicals. 1 0 Q . If you started in t h e position of 1 1 Manage r of Applied Scienc e s c i r ca 1979, that 1 2 would bring you to about 1 9 8 0, if you held 1 3 the p o sition for eleven y ears, right? 1 4 MR. ZIMMER: I think it was '69. 1 5 MR. TALLON: ' 6 9? 1 6 A. About '81, I believe. 1 7 BY MR. TALLON: 1 8 Q . '81? 1 9 A. Should be close. 2 0 Q. And did you take op a new position 2 1 in '81? 2 2 A. Well, the next, let's see, three, 2 3 four years, then, through some internal 2 4 structuring of Monsanto, then it became -- 2 5 then I became Manager of Applied Technology GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 STLCOPCB4026843 with the same functions. Primarily, name 2 change, and that was up until late 1985. Q. And in 1985 did you leave, retire 4 from the company? 5 A. I retired and then did consulting 6 work as a private consultant for the next 7 four years. 8 Q. Dr. Keller, in indicating that you 9 did consulting work as a private consultant 1 0 for the next four years, were you indicating 1 1 for Monsanto? 1 2 A . No . 1 3 Q. Did you do any work as a private 1 4 consultant during the four years that you 1 5 have thusfar mentioned for Monsanto? 1 6 A . No . 1 7 Q. That would bring us to about 1989. 1 8 Since then, have you done any consulting work 1 9 forMonsanto? 20 A. No. Since then, I've operated, c ` 2 1 been as an independent contractor on a 2 2 two-year project which I've just come off of 2 3 for the St. Louis Science Center and the 2 4 National Science Foundation. 2 5 Q. And are you currently doing any GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 STLCOPCB4026844 consulting work f o r Monsant o ? 2 A . No . Q Are you -- just t o b e sure I 4 understood your t e s t i m o n y , a r e y ou drawing a 5 distinction betwee n acting a s a n i n d e p e n d e n t 6 contractor and a c onsultant ? 7 A . Well, i t just ha PP e n s that I 8 committed the last two year s t o the St L o u i s 9 Science Center and the N a ti o n a 1 S c i e n c e 1 0 Foundation to t h ei r project t s o I took mys elf 1 1 out as a private c onsultant 1 2 Q And w h e n you say c o m m i t t e d , y o u 1 3 mean that you were during tha t two-yea r t i m e 1 4 period doing work exclusively for the S c i e nee 1 5 Center? 1 6 A . They ha d covered m e , right. 1 7 Mm-hmra. 1 8 Q. Other than as you have described 1 9 since your retirement from Monsanto, have you 2 0 done any work for corapensatiotl for that j. 2 1 c ompany ? 2 2 A . No . 2 3 Q. Doctor, during the course of your 2 4 employment in the various positions that 2 5 you've just identified for us, were you GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI . ..... 2 0 STLCOPCB4026845 *? responsible for developing any new products? 2 A . No . Q. Is it fair to say from your 4 description of your job responsibilities that 5 new product development did not fall within 6 the ambit of your job? 7 A. That's right. 8 Q . Was it any p art o f your job during 9 the per io d from , what d id w e say, 19 5 2 1 0 t h r o u g h 1985 to do test i n g o n new produ c t s 1 1 b e f ore they w e r e r e 1 e a s e d for sale by 1 2 Monsanto to consumers? 1 3 A. I can't recall any. I say that 1 4 because that responsibility fell to our 1 5 production plant facilities. 1 6 Q. And did you have supervision over 1 7 the persons who would do that work at the 1 8 production plant facilities? 1 9 A. I had a coordinated role with the 2 0 plant chief chemists, but I h^d.no 2 1 responsibilities for their operations within 2 2 each plant . 2 3 Q. Dr. Keller, during theperiod that 2 4 you served as Manager of Applied Sciences, 2 5 which I understand was from approximately GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 21 STLCOPCB4026846 1 1969 to a date sometime in 1981, to whom did 2 you report? 3 A . Well, let's see. In 1969, it 4 would b e Oliver DeGarmo, and from 1970 on, 5 Tracy P a trick. 6 Q And what position did your 7 supervis or in 1969 hold? 8 A . Associate Directo r of Research. 9 Q And from 1970 on. what was the 1 0 title o f your supervisor? 1 1 A . Same. 1 2 Q During the period you served as 1 3 Manager of Applied Sciencesfrom 1969 to 1 4 sometime in 1981, did you report to the 1 5 medical director of Monsanto? 1 6 A. I had no reporting relationships 1 7 to him. 1 8 Q. Did the medical director have any 1 9 reporting relationships to you? 20 A . No . ,, 2 1 Q . To use a term that you used a 2 2 moment ago, did you coordinate with the 2 3 medical director? 24 A. Wecoordinated, yes. 2 5 Q . And can you tell me how that GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 22 STLCOPCB4026847 1 coordination worked during the period that 2 you served as Manager of Applied Sciences? 3 A. Primarily, the Medical Department 4 was what we called a client. The R & D 5 groups of research were clients, and our 6 relationship was on a client basis, and with 7 projects that they requested, and if the 8 Medical Department had work of the type we 9 could support and they wanted us to do it, 1 0 they would make a request, usually through 1 1 the R & D group involved with that product. 1 2 Q. Do you ever recollecthaving 1 3 handled any toxico1ogica 1 studies at the 1 4 request of themedical director or his 1 5 department? 1 6 A. Yes. Qualify. 1 7 Q. Okay, what's the qualification? 1 8 A. What do you mean, handle? Could 1 9 we play that question back agaii) , please? 2 0 Q. Yes, of course. Did the medical 2 1 director ever request your group to perform 2 2 any toxicological studies with respect to 2 3 Monsanto products during the period -- well, 2 4 while you were at Monsanto? 2 5 A. The answer to that is no, because GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026848 1 we weren't doing toxicological studies. 2 Q. Were you ever requested to 3 coordinate toxicological studies at the 4 behest of the medical director that were 5 performed by outside consultants? 6 A. Yes, and for analytical support. 7 Q. Are you familiarwith the name Dr. 8 Calandra? 9 A. Yes. 1 0 Q. Did you ever coordinate with Dr. 1 1 Calandra in the toxicological work done by 1 2 his group, or his company, for Monsanto? 1 3 A. Yes. 1 4 Q. Doctor, during the period that 1 5 you've described dating from approximately 1 6 1952 through 1950 -- 1985, did you personally 17 do any work in your department with or with 1 8 respect to a product sold a s Turbinol 15 3? 1 9 A . No . 2 0 Q Did you do any w o r/k in your 2 1 department or do you know o f any work done in 2 2 your department with a product known as MCS 2 3 15 3? 2 4 A . Yes. 2 5 Q. Did you do any work in your GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 24 STLCOPCB4026849 1 department with respect to a product known as 2 OS 8 1? 3 A . Not that I recall. 4 Q. During your -- I'm sorry? 5 A. Can we play back the question on 6 the first two products before the last one 7 you mentioned? 8 Q. The questions that I had asked 9 were, did you -- well, let me just ask 1 0 another question. 1 1 During the period that you were 1 2 employed by Monsanto, did you do any work, or 1 3 did you know of work being done by those you 1 4 supervised with respect to products sold by 1 5 Monsanto under the name of either Turbinol 1 6 153 or MCS 1653? 1 7 A. Those products, no. That answer 1 8 should be no. 1 9 Q. Which, of course, makes me wonder 2 0 why originally you said yes when I asked you 2 1 about MCS 153. 2 2 A. Well, because 153 is in my mind 2 3 today, but back then, I had no involvement. 2 4 Q. You mean 153 is in your mind today 2 5 as a result of your preparation for this GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026850 1 session today? 2 A. Mm-hmm. (Nods head in affirmative 3 manner). 4 Q. During the course of your 5 employment with Monsanto, did you ever have 6 any kind of communication with anyone you 7 believed to be employed by a representing 8 Texas Eastern Transmission Corporation? 9 A . No . 1 0 Q. During the entire course of your 1 1 employment with Monsanto, did you have any 1 2 kind of communication with anyone you 1 3 believed to be representing Transwestern 1 4 Pipeline Company? 1 5 A . No . 1 6 Q. During the course of your 1 7 employment with Monsanto, did you have any 1 8 communication of any kind with any person 1 9 that you believed to be employed by or 2 0 representing NCR, National Cash Register? t 21 A. Not that I recall . 22 Q. Doctor, when you began work with 2 3 Monsanto in 1952, were you aware that 2 4 Monsanto produced products whose constituent 2 5 elements included polychlorinated biphenyls? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026851 -X! A . At some point along t he way, after 2 joining Monsanto, I'm sure I became aware of this, but today, I can't tell you when. 4 Q. Doctor, can you define today your 5 understanding of the term "chlorinated 6 polyphenyls"? 7 A. My understanding is that it's two 8 six-member chlorine rings linked together 9 with varying amounts of chlorine attached to 1 0 one or both rings. 1 1 Q . And is the chlorine ring 1 2 you referred also sometimes kn own a 1 3 benzene ring? 1 4 A . Yes . 15 Q. And does the term "chlorinated ; 1 6 polyphenyls" also describe compounds that 1 7 have more than two benzene rings? 1 8 A. Restate that, please, to me. j I j i j 1 9 Q. Yes.Does the term "chlorinated 2 0 polyphenyls," to you, also include compounds 2 1 that have more than two benzene rings? In 2 2 other words, three or more? 2 3 A. Onlypolychlorinated biphenyls I 2 4 mean that to me. 2 5 Q. Mean what to you? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 27 STLCOPCB4026852 A . That it's two rings. n Q. Okay, so a chlorinated biphenyl has two benzene rings, correct? 4 A. Mm-hmm. (Nods head in affirmative 5 g I, 7 manner). Q. And the term "chlorinated polyphenyls", does that mean to you that 8 9 i! H ii 1 0 lii' 1 1 I; there are -- that that term describes only compounds with two benzene rings or can it include compounds with more than two benzene rings? 1 2 A. As I recall, it could be more. 1 3 Q. So is it fair to say that the term 1 4 "chlorinated polyphenyls" can encompass 1 5 chlorinated biphenyls but may alsoencompass 16 lI)i 17 other substances? A. That would be my interpretation. 1 8 Q, Doctor, are youfamiliar with the 1 9 term "chick edema factor"? 2 0 A. Yes . * 2 1 Q. And what does that term mean to 2 2 you? 2 3 A. It's skin rash or irritation 2 4 caused by product. 25 J (Discussion off the record GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 28 STLCOPCB4026853 and short break. ) 2 BY MR . TALLON: 3 Q. Okay, Doctor , just to jump back 4 for a moment, to whom did you report in 1966 5 ' 6 7 and '68, bef ore becom ing Manager o f 6 Applied Sciences? You were then the section 7 manager, as I recall. 8 A . Oliver DeGarmo. 9 Q . Is Mr. DeGarmo still employed by 1 0 Monsanto today? 1 1 A . No . 1 2 Q Is he retired? 1 3 A . Retired . 1 4 Q Do you know where he's living? 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 g Where? 17 A . Kirkwood, Missouri. 1 8 Q Doctor, do you recollect during 1 9 your tenure any work being done with Aroclor 2 0 1242 with chick edema factor tests? 2 1 A. Not that I recall. 2 2 Q. Do you recall ever having reported 2 3 to you that Proctor & Gamble was doing chick 2 4 edema factor tests with Aroclor 1242? 2 5 A . No . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026854 Q. Did you know a Kenneth H. Maddy 2 during the course of your employment by 3 Monsanto? 4 A . No . 5 MR. TALLON: Let me show you a 6 d o c u m e n t that we'll ask the court reporter to 7 mark a s the next exhibit in order . 8 (Plaintiff's Deposition 9 Exhibit 278 marked for 1 0 identification.) 1 1 BY MR. TALLON: 1 2 Q. Take a moment and review that. 1 3 (Witness peruses said 1 4 document . ) 1 5 BY MR. TALLON: ' 1 6 Q. Doctor, my question for you is, 1 7 having reviewed the exhibit before you, do 1 8 you have any enhanced recollection about work 1 9 being done by Proctor & Gamble with respect 2 0 to Aroclor 1242 and chick edema factor? 2 1 A . No . 2 2 Q. Does reviewing that letter or that 2 3 exhibit supply you with any enhanced 2 4 recollection about the identity of Kenneth 2 5 H. Maddy ? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026855 A . i just don't recall where he was 2 at that point. I don't recall 3 Q You don't -- 4 A . I don't recall him. 5 Q There's a typed not ation at the 6 bottom o f the page. It says, "9/19/61 , 7 talked w ith Maddy, and he is s ure it won't 8 bother u s. REK." 9 Do you know whether you are 1 0 responsible for the typed notation that 1 1 appears at the bottom of that exhibit which 1 2 precedes the initials "REK"? 1 3 A. I don't recall this notation. 1 4 Q. Do you have any present 1 5 recollection of having discussed with Elmer 16 Wheeler Aroclor 1242 and chick edema factor , 1 7 tests? - 1 8 A. I have no recollection of that. 19 Q. And you are -- you^know who Mr. ; 2 0 Wheeler is and what his position was in 1961? ; 21 A. Yes. 2 2 Q. All right, thank you. 2 3 MR. TALLON: Let's mark as the 2 4 next exhibit a four-page document bearing 2 5 production numbers TRAN 085902, 085919, t i j j GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026856 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 i 1 9 I: 20 21 22 23 I iil 24 25 and 085930. (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 279 marked for identification. ) BY MR. TALLON: Q. Would you take a moment and review that exhibit, please, Dr. Keller? (Witness peruses said document . ) MR. ZIMMER: All right. BY MR. TALLON: Q. Doctor, do these appear to be to you organizational charts for the Monsanto Industrial Chemicals company technology planning and evaluation for various dates in the Seventies starting with June 1st, 1972? A. Yes. Q. If you would focus for a moment, please, on the organizational first chart of those four f __ 1 dated June 1, pages, the 1972, I see over in the left-hand side of the page that there is a box titled "Manager, Applied Sciences," and than box is the name "R. E. Keller." That refers to you; correct? A. Correct. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026857 Q. Underneath the box with your name 2 in it, there are two other boxes. One 3 labeled "Group Leaders" and one labeled 4 "Senior Research Specialist." You see those? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did the employees whose names 7 appear on those boxes report to you as of the 8 date of this organizational chart? 9 A . Yes . 1 0 Q. Did this organizational chart 1 1 describe the organization of your group at 1 2 any time before June 1, 1972? 1 3 A. Essentially the same. You say 1 4 before '72. Can you clarify that for me. 1 5 Q. Yes, in particular, you had told 1 6 me that you became the Manager of Applied 17 Sciences in 1969 and served in that position I 1 8 through approximately 1981. 1 9 A. I believe I said that in '69, I 2 0 was a section manager. It w a ^ still a 2 1 section. In 1970, when the company 2 2 reorganized, it became Applied Sciences as a 2 3 unit, and then I became a Manager of Applied 2 4 Sciences. 2 5 Q. So Manager of Applied Sciences GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 33 STLCOPCB4026858 really started in '70? 2 A. Mm-hmm . (Nods head in affi r m a t i v e 3 m a n n e r) . 4 Q And until '69, you were a s e c t i o n 5 m a n a g er ? 6 A . Right. 7 Q Okay. Is the -- well, let me put 8 it to you this way. Did the employees whose 9 names w e r e listed in the box as group leaders 1 0 r e p o r t to you at any p o i n t before 1972 ? 1 1 A . Yes. 1 2 0 . Did Mr. D i e t r i ch report to you 1 3 b e f o r e '72? 1 4 A . Yes. 1 5 Q How much b e f o r e ? 1 6 A . Approximately eight or nine years. 17 Q . What was his job? 1 8 A . He was a research, senior r e s e a r c h 1 9 chemi s t , entry level , a s a spectroscop i s t . 2 0 Q. Did he have employees reporting to 2 1 him at any time during the period he reported 2 2 to you? 2 3 A. Yes, as shown by this diagram. He 2 4 was a group leader. 2 5 Q. He was a group leader who reported GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 34 STLCOPCB4026859 o him based on your reading of this diagram? 2 A . In 1972? 3 C Mm - hmm . 4 A . Jim M i e u r e , Bernie Katlafs ky . A s 5 I best r e c a 1 1 , K i n a s t . Beyond that, I ' d have 6 t o go to other charts. I'm not sure. 7 Q Have you ever seen other 8 organizational charts for the group in which 9 you worked which were more expansive in the 1 0 sense that they included names of more 1 1 people? 1 2 A. I have seen them, but not since 1 3 leaving Monsanto. 1 4 Q. In 1972, was Mr. Dietrich asenior 1 5 research chemist, spectroscopist? 1 6 A. No, he was a group leader in '12. 1 7 Q. And what group did he lead? 1 8 A. The spectroscopy group. 1 9 Q. What was Mr. Emery's position in 2 0 '72? ^. 2 1 A. Group leader of the Physical 2 2 Chemistry Group. 2 3 Q. And he had employees reporting to 2 4 him? 2 5 A. Yes. GORE REPORTING' COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 35 STLCOPCB4026860 Q. What was Mr. Fowler's position in 2 '72? 3 A. Group leader responsible for 4 process instrument development. 5 Q. And Mr. Tucker? What was his 6 position in '72? 7 A. He was group leader responsible 8 for the Analytical Chemistry Group. 9 Q. Did he also have employees 1 0 reporting to him? 1 1 A. Yes,mm-hmm. 1 2 Q. There is another box just 1 3 underneath the box identifying the group 1 4 leaders who we've just reviewed, Senior 1 5 Research Specialist. Do you see that? . 1 6 A . Yes . : 1 7 Q And what is thenameofthe 1 8 gentleman that appears in that box? ! 1 9 A . Jack H i n c h e n , H - i - n - c - h - e - n . 2 0 Q Did he r e p o r t toy ou , , or to one of 2 1 the group leaders? 22 A . He r to me. 2 3 Q And what was his job in 1972? 24 A. Applied math and statistics. i I 2 5 Q. I see from 1 ooking at the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS , MISSOURI 36 STLCOPCB4026861 organizational chart dated June I, 1572, that n 0. DeGarno -- DeGarmo was the Manager of Process Technology. Was that a group 4 different than the group for which Mr. Fowler 5 was responsible? 6 A . Yes. 7 Q. And how did they differ? 8 A. DeGarmo's area was responsible for 9 developing new processes, whereas Fowler's 1 0 group was responsible for developing 1 1 instruments needed for those processes. 1 2 Q. I also see from looking at the 1 3 chart dated June 1st, 1972, that a 1 4 J. S. Metcalf was the Manager ofQuality and 1 5 Environmental Control. Do you see that? 1 6 A . Yes ) 1 7 Q Way up on the top to the right. 18 A. Mm - h m m . (Nods head in affirmative 1 9 manner). 2 0 Q Did you know what ^r.- Metcalf's 2 1 job was? That i s to say, what his job 2 2 responsibilities were in June of 1972? 2 3 A. Vaguely. 2 4 Q. Vaguely, what were they? 2 5 A. To review products and work with GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 37 STLCOPCB4026862 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 li 1 0 uii:i 11 12 13 14 L 1 5 I, 1 6 j| 1 7 j; 1 8 i' 19 ; 2 0 |!l 21 i 22 23 24 25 the business group's research on coordinating whatever would be needed for quality and environmental concerns. Q. Could you just flip for a moment, Doctor, to the next page? It's the chart dated October 1, 1975. The organization just under your name appears to have been modified slightly in that Mr. Fowler is now in his own box. You see that? A . Yes Q And what does that signify to you? A . Mr . Fowler was having phys i c a 1 problems, and it is my best recollect ion at this point, there was an effort to share some of the burdens of that group. Q. And how did that result in his being in a separate unit within your department if indeed that is what this signifies? A. As opposed to group leaders? Simply a different title, so it was a different box. 0 It i s also depicted on the chart dated October 1 , 19 7 5 , that Mr. Metcalf, by October 1, 1975, has the title "Manager o f GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI O STLCOPCB4026863 1 P r o d u c t Acceptabi 1 i t y . " Do you see that? 2 It's on the , the r i g h t - h and side of the page. 3 A . Yes. 4 Q Do you have a n -- 5 A . May I qualify this? 6 Q Yes, s u r e . 7 A . Former c o m m e n t on your question 8 about -- 9 Q Fowler ? 1 0 A . Fowler . And I was - - I jumped 1 1 ahead because I w as look i ng in my own mind, 1 2 Dr. Fowl e r passed away. and I'm not sure just 1 3 when at this poin t , but that's part of the 1 4 picture , and the basis f or my c o mm e n t . 1 5 Q R e f e r r i n g b a c k for a second to the 1 6 October 1 , 1 9 7 5, o r g a n i z a t i o n a 1 chart, Mr. 1 7 Metcalf , o n this chart, has the title 1 8 "Manager, Product Acceptability." Do you see 1 9 that? 2 0 A. M m - h m m . (Nods headf'in affirmative 2 1 manner). 2 2 Q. Was that a new position as of 2 3 October 1 97 5, so far a s you know? 2 4 A . S o far as I know. 2 5 Q Do you know what his GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 7Q STLCOPCB4026864 1 2 3 4 5; 6 11 |_ 7i !' 8 Iij' ij 9 |ijl 1 0 jj j; 1 1 jj ]' 12 ! 13 ; i' 1 4 !I': 11 1 5 j; i! 16 j j 17 j 18 19 ; 20 21 22 23 24 25 responsibilities were in that position? A. The only comment I can make on that is, as I knew it, it was the same as, responsibi1ity-wise, essentially, as he had before. Q. Do you have any understanding as to why the title was changed? A. I think the company at this point was concerned about doing everything possible to address products and make sure they were acceptable, and it was a way of formalizing in that direction. Q. The name change was? Is that what you mean?A. Mm-hmm. ' (Nods head in affirmative manner) Yes. Q. Doctor, are you familiar with the name Gunnar Widmark? A. Yes . Q. And will you identify Mr. Widmark for the record? A. He was Professor of Analytical Chemistry at the Analytical Chemistry Institute, University of Stockholm, Sweden. Q. And under what circumstances did ; : i t j ' j GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026865 i you first hear of Mr. Widmark's name or 2 Professor Widmark's name? 3 A. It was a publication by Widmark 4 and Jensen in the "New Scientist," December 5 of 1966. 6 Q. And that publication related to 7 work done by Professors Widmark and Jensen 8 with respect to polychlorinated biphenyls? 9 A. Yes . 1 0 Q. How did that publication come to 1 1 your attention, as best you recall today? 1 2 A. Through our European Monsanto 1 3 offices, London, and to our Medical 1 4 Department and product business group. 1 5 Q. Inwhatfashiondidthe ; 16 publication become known to you through the , 1 7 European Monsanto offices in London? i 1 8 A. Well, as I best recollect, there 1 9 was a memo or memos to Medical Department ; 2 0 personnel regarding this publication. 2 1 Q. And how did that come to your 2 2 attention that there were memos to the 23 Medical Department personnel? 2 4 A. The Medical Department, and I 2 5 don't remember which one, and the business GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI . 41 STLCOPCB4026866 1 group responsible for PCB-type products, PCB 2 at that time, brought it to my attention, and 3 I don't recall how that was done now; don't 4 know. 5 0 . When you s t a t e in your answer that 6 you don ' t recall how it was done, d o you mean 7 that t o i n d i c a t e that you don't r e c all 8 whether i t was a memo , o r a letter, or a 9 telephone call? 1 0 A . Correct. I don't recall what the 1 1 mechanism was. 1 2 Q. Do you recall whom it was that 1 3 communicated the information to you that the 1 4 study by Widmark and Jensen had been 1 5 published? 1 6 A. No,I don't. 1 7 Q. Do youremember anything about the 1 8 content of the communication that came to 1 9 you, notwithstanding that you don't recall 2 0 exactly what form the communication took? 21 A. Idon't remember thecontent. 2 2 Q. Do you recall whether or not you 2 3 had any reaction to the information that such 2 4 a study had been published by Widmark and 2 5 Jensen? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 42 STLCOPCB4026867 . found that the article that 2 we're talking about in "New Scientist" was 3 interesting, somewhat surprising. 4 Q. Do you remember, by the way, 5 Doctor, getting an actual copy of the article 6 as published? 7 A . I have in mind a copy of it from 8 someone, but I can't add anymore than that 9 it. 1 0 Q. Do you recollection being asked to 1 1 do anything or to take any action in 1 2 connection with the news being disseminated 1 3 that the work by Widmark and Jensen had been 1 4 published? 1 5 A. Well, the action that we took was 1 6 in concert with the Medical Department in the 1 7 business group to do everything possible to 1 8 get as much information as we could on what 1 9 this story really was and what it was all 2 0 about. ,. 2 1 Q. Just to be clear, were you asked 2 2 to do something in that respect? 2 3 A. I don't recall if I was asked IiI 2 4 personally. I was involved. Whether someone 2 5 specifically asked me, I don't recall. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 43 STLCOPCB4026868 Q Do you have any u n d e r s tanding as 2 to why such responsibi 1 i ty would fall to you 3 as o p p o sed to someone else within the 4 Monsanto organization who was a chemist or a 5 Manager of Applied Sciences? 6 MR. ZIMMER: You mean other than 7 what he's indicated already about working in 8 concert with the business group and the 9 Medical Department? 1 0 MR. TALLON: Right. 1 1 A. My responsibility simply covered 1 2 any analytical aspects of this interest, and 1 3 none of the other concerns, toxicology, et 1 4 cetera. 1 5 BY MR. TALLON: 1 6 0 . The polychlorina ted biphenyl 1 7 products were products manu factured by the I 1 8 group to which your group w as attached; 1 9 correct? 2 0 A. What do you mean , attached? 21 Q. I mean, you were the Manager of 2 2 A p p1ied Sciences in a group that manuf ac tured 2 3 polychlorinated biphenyl-ba sed products. 2 4 A . No . t( 2 5 Q. Okay, then what was the connection GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026869 1 of your group with the products that included 2 polychlorinated biphenyls? 3 A. That group was one of a number of 4 functioning R & D groups by product area 5 within the Research and Development 6 Department, and our group was a part of a -- 7 of technology, planning and evaluation, 8 another group along in a stable of business 9 R Sc D groups, and these were clients back to 1 0 us. 1 1 Q. Right. I guess, just to be clear, 1 2 to your knowledge, when the Gunnar Widmark 1 3 and Soren Jensen work was first published, 1 4 were polychlorinated biphenyl based products 1 5 being produced by Monsanto Industrial i 1 6 Chemicals Company? . 1 7 A . Yes . ! 1 8 Q. And the technology administration 19 and Applied Sciences Group was a unit within : f 2 0 Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company? 21 A. Correct. 2 2 Q . And the R & D departments were 2 3 clients of your group, those were also within 2 4 Monsanto Industrial Chemicals Company? i 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 45 STLCOPCB4026870 1 Q. Are you familiar with the name 2 D. Wood ? 3 A. My only recollection is, he was 4 one of the people involved with some 5 correspondence regarding Widmark and Jensen's 6 work. 7 Q Was he, at the time of the 8 publicat ion of the Jensen and Widmark work, 9 based in London? 1 0 A . Yes. 1 1 Q Do you know if Mr . Wood is still 1 2 living? 1 3 A. I do not know. 1 4 Q. Where was he when you last knew of 1 5 his whereabouts? 1 6 A. Twenty-five years ago; Idon't 1 7 know. 1 8 Q. You have no information as to his 19 whereabouts more recently than twenty-five 1 2 0 yearsago? j 21 A . No . I i 2 2 Q. Doctor, one of the things you said , 2 3 to me a few moments ago is that you found the ; 2 4 article by Jensen and Widmark interesting and | I 2 5 somewhat surprising. What was it that you GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI , j i STLCOPCB4026871 1 found interesting, as best you recall today? 2 A. Interesting from the technology 3 standpoint of the techniques used to find the 4 polychlorinated biphenyl products. 5 Q. Do you remember what it was about 6 the techniques used to find the 7 polychlorinated biphenyl products that struck 8 you as being interesting from a technological 9 standpoint? 1 0 A. It was the use of a gas 1 1 chromatrograph with a mass spectrometer as an 1 2 instrument system. 1 3 Q. Did you, at the time of the 1 4 publication, form any opinion as to whether 1 5 or not the results of the work done by 1 6 Widmark and Jensen were technologically 1 7 valid? 1 8 A. We had no reason to doubt what 1 9 they reported. 2 0 Q. Did you -- did there ever come a 2 1 time when you concluded personally that the 2 2 results of the work were valid? 2 3 A. Yes, later. 2 4 Q. Approximately how much later? 2 5 A. Within a year. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI f 47 STLCOPCB4026872 1 2 3 4 5: |! i1 6 7 8: Ii 9i 10 i i 11 i 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q - Doctor, I'd like to show you a document which we'll mark as the next exhibit in order. It's a one-page letter dated December 29, 1966, and it bears production number TRAN 055797. (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 280 marked for identification.) BY MR. TALLON: Q. Would you take a moment and review that, please? And by a moment, I mean a s much time as you want. (Witness peruses said document . ) A. All right. BY MR. TALLON: Q. Doctor, do you recollect ever having seen the document which is before you, beforetoday? A. I can't recall whe/i I see this. This was 19 -- December of 1966. Q. There's a -- although this particular exhibit suffers from having been photocopied a number of times, there's a notation at the top, in between those two GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 48 j i j i j i j ^ ( j j f I j STLCOPCB4026873 1 black circles, that loo k s like it s ays "Bob 2 Keller." Does look i n g a t that r e f r e s h your 1 w recollection in any- way a s t o w h e t h e r you've 4 seen this before? 5 A. It looks 1 i k e someone penciled my 6 name on it. I don' t re call if it got to me. 7 I simply don't reca 11 s e e i n g it. 8 Q. Did you know a Mr. Ford, employed 9 byMonsanto in Dece m b e r 1 9 6 6 ? 1 0 A . By name only . I, to my knowledge, 1 1 I have never met hi m . 1 2 Q. And what was his position with 1 3 Monsanto in 1966, a s be st you know? 1 4 A. I can't tell you that. I don't 1 5 know. 1 6 Q. You indicated a moment ago that 1 7 you'd never met him. Did you ever have any 1 8 telephone communication with Mr. Ford or any 1 9 kind of correspondence with him on the 2 0 subject of the Widmark and J e^n sen work? 2 1 A. Not that I recall. 2 2 Q. One of the other things you said 2 3 to me just a moment ago. Dr. Keller, was that 2 4 inaddition to finding the Widmark and Jensen 2 5 work interesting, you found it somewhat GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 49 STLCOPCB4026874 1 2 3 4 5 ji 6 !l 7 8 I! 9! 10 1 1 |i1ii 1 2 ;; 13 i' iI:; 1 4 j! ii 1 5 |( !1 6 17 18 i 19 ; 20 21 22 23 24 25 surprising. Can yo u tell me, please, wnat it was that you found somewhat surprising? A . Well, I guess the surprising part would be that there appeared to be, apparently, polychl orinated b i pheny1-type materials found in aquatic systems. To our knowledge at that t ime, that had never been reported before. Q . Wasther e anything else that you found surprising wi th respect to the -- your initial exposure to the Widmark and Jensen work? A. That's primarily it, to my best . recollection. . Q. Have you ever met Gunnar Widmark? Yes A' Q And Soren Jensen? A . No . the q Did purpos e of you take a trip to Europe o meeting Mr. Widmark? for A . Yes G And when did that occur? A . The spring of 1969. 0 Jus t to touch back for a moment, one of the things that you mentioned a moment ti GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026875 2 3 4 5 6 7 I 8 i 9 10 11 I 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ago is that following the announcement of publication of the Widmark andJensen work, you and others took action to get everything -- to do everything possible to get information? What personally did you do, or request others to do, on your behalf in order to get information? A. We felt that if this problem was real, we needed to learn as much information as possible as soon as possible. We immediately decided to put ourselves in a position where we would produce our own results in terms of environmental findings and get equipped with proper resources, equipment, personnel, facilities, where we could do work reported by Widmark and Jensen, and as part of that, we -- the key, as mentioned already, was a gas chromatography mass spectrometer equipment, and the equipment they had was put out by an instrument company in Sweden, presumably with the purpose of selling instruments, and they used it. With our departure, immediately, after reading this from Widm ark-Jensen, was to acquire this equipment but none was GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 51 STLCOPCB4026876 1 available in this country. Was not a shelf 2 item, it was a very expensive, even at 3 dollars in those days, so we ordered 4 equipment, the mass spectrometer from a 5 German firm, and this is in 1967, early, and 6 proceeded to get the other equipment, 7 appropriate gas chromatograph, decided that 8 we needed the proper personnel to try to use 9 this equipment, and acquired Scott Tucker as 1 0 a professional to work on this, this area. 1 1 And these were actions taken in the immediate 1 2 analytical area. 1 3 Q . And in the immediate analytica 1 4 area , do you mean to say or have you just 1 5 said that the things you'1 v e just describe 1 6 are the things that fell within your 17 responsibility? 1 8 A. They fell within my 1 9 responsibility . 2 0 Q. When was Scott Tucker hired? 2 1 A. 1 9 67 . i Ii 2 2 Q. Can you be any more precise than 2 3 that? 2 4 A. No, I can't. I don't have that. 2 5 Q. Let me show you, Doctor, a GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 52 STLCOPCB4026877 1 doc ument that bears production numb e r s -- 2 act u a 1 1 y , two series of production number s , 3 but I'll u s e the one clo ser to the b o t t o m o f 4 the page. S CM 037311 thr ough 314, a n d aft e r 5 the report e r marks it, I 'll ask you i f y o u 6 can i d e n t i f y it for me. 7 ( P 1 a i n t i ff's Deposi t i o n 8 Exhibit 281 marked f o r 9 identifi cation. ) 1 0 (Witness peruses sa id 1 1 document . ) 1 2 BY MR. TALLON : 1 3 Q Have you seen the exhibi t b e f o r e 1 4 you before today? 1 5 MR. ZIMMER: He means other than 1 6 if it was shown to you by counsel. 1 7 A . Yes. 1 8 BY MR. TALLON: 1 9 Q Did you prepare it? 2 0 A . Yes . f< 2 1 Q . Are those -- well. is that your 2 2 signature which appears at the foot of the 2 3 lastpage? 2 4 A. It looks like it. 2 5 Q. And it appears to be dated GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 53 STLCOPCB4026878 1 3-10-69 . Is that right? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q. Is that on or near the date when 4 you prepared this exhibit? 5 A. To my best recollection, mm-hmm. 6 Q. Is there any other handwriting on 7 thisdocument which is yours? 8 MR. TALLON: And I'll note for the 9 record that the only other place there 1 0 appears to be handwriting is at the top of 1 1 Page 4, the top of Page 2 and the top of Page 12 1 . 1 3 A. I assume those are my penciled 1 4 corrections, but I can't say for sure. 1 5 BY MR. TALLON: 1 6 Q. What about in the upper right-hand 1 7 corner of Page 1? Do you see that notation? 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q. Is that your handwriting? 2 0 A. Well, I can't say for sure on 2 1 that. 2 2 Q . Do you know if that says "take"? 2 3 MR. ZIMMER: If it's not his 2 4 handwriting, he would be speculating. 2 5 A. I don't know what that means. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 54 STLCOPCB4026879 1 BY MR. AL LON: 2 Q Do you know if you took a copy o f this e x h i bit with you to Europe when you made 4 your trip i n 1 9 6 9 ? 5 A . I have no recollection of that 6 Q Were you asked to prepare this 7 exhibit? 8 A. That I don't recall, but I'll tell 9 you why I prepared it, if I haven't already : 1 0 answered the question. 1 1 1 Q . Well, I wasabout to say, for what 1 2 reason or reasons did you prepare it? 13 A. It was primarily to have in mind I 14 better the picture from Jensen's first work ! 15 to our departure time on our first trip to ! 1 6 Europe. It was no more than that. 1 7 Q. And just to be clear, Dr. Keller, j 18 what picture was it that you wanted to have : 1 9 in mind? i ' 2 0 A. To have the benefit of, as I 2 1 already commented, we decided we needed to 2 2 get all information possible about this 2 3 situation, and the way to do that was to put 2 4 it together and document it accurately and 2 5 precisely, and this was a proper time to do GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 55 '' '. STLCOPCB4026880 1t . 2 Q And it was the proper time for 3 what reason or reasons? 4 A. Because Monsanto felt that they 5 needed to resolve this problem, and if we 6 were going to do that and if we were going to 7 commit considerable resources, we needed to 8 have the benefit of all the information that 9 anyone else had that would be available to 10 us . 1 1 Q. And, you know, I apologize, I'm 1 2 not completely sure that you answered the 1 3 question a moment ago. 1 4 Did someone ask you to do this or 1 5 did you create this exhibit of your own 1 6 volition? 17 A . I -- I don't recall if I was asked 1 8 to do this. I did it, it could have been 1 9 that I did it of my own but I don't remember. 2 0 Q. To your knowledgeor rather to 21 your recollection, did you furnish copies of 2 2 this exhibit to anyone else? 2 3 A. I did not furnish copies to anyone 2 4 else that I recall. 2 5 Q. Are you able to discern, Dr. GORE REPORTING' COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 56 STLCOPCB4026881 1 Keller, from a review of this exhibit, when 2 the equipment that you'd mentioned earlier in 3 your testimony today was ordered for 4 purchase? 5 A. I don't recall when a purchase 6 order went in. I do know that there had to 7 be at least a six-month delay on equipment 8 from Germany, upon receipt of order, and my 9 best recollection is that we had the 1 0 equipment, the mass spectrometer from Germany 1 1 and the appropriate gas chromatograph, and 1 2 what it took to put those together, set up 1 3 and somewhat in operation by the end of '67, 1 4 so that's the best time frame I can provide. 1 5 Q. You had mentioned that the 1 6 equipment was very expensive, even in 1967 1 7 dollars . 1 8 A. Mm-h mm. 1 9 Q. Approximately how much money were 2 0 you thinking of when you gave^ that answer? 2 1 MR. ZIMMER: For all of the 2 2 equipment combined? 2 3 MR. TALLON: Well, we were going 2 4 to discuss the, the particulars of it, but 2 5 I'm wondering if the doctor had a particular GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 57 STLCOPCB4026882 1 overall figure in mind when he gave his 2 answer . 3 A. Well, the gas chromatograph and 4 the mass spectrometer and a year later, we 5 added a computer system, which it really took 6 to make it work, we had at least a quarter of 7 a million dollars in it. 8 BY MR. TALLON: 9 Q. To the best of your ability to 1 0 say, what percentage of that $250,000 or so 1 1 was represented by the purchase of the gas 1 2 chromatograph and the mass spectrometer? 1 3 A. Well, the computer, the gas 1 4 chromatograph, and the mass spectrometer 1 5 would account for that 250 thousand. 1 6 Q. Right, and now I'm wondering if 1 7 you have any ability to say what percentage 18 of the 250 thousand wererepresented by the 1 9 gas chromatograph and the mass spectrometer. 20 A. Okay. The mass s p^e cprometer was 2 1 around a hundred thousand. The computer was 2 2 around a hundred thousand, and the gas 2 3 chromatograph and periphery equipment, which 2 4 I'm not going to tryand describe, made up 2 5 the fifty thousand. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 58 STLCOPCB4026883 Q. In order for -- were those 2 expenditures authorized by you? 3 A . They were put through as a capital 4 addition request by me and approved in normal 5 changes , capital approval channels. M y 6 signature was on it, but it wasn't a final 7 approval signature. 8 Q. When you say your signature was on 9 it, are you referring to a form for 1 0 authorizations for expenditure? 1 1 A. Capital request form. 1 2 Q. Capital request? Doctor, do you 1 3 have any ability to say how long after 1 4 learning of the Soren -- the Jensen and 1 5 Widm a r k work,. you s ubmitted your cap 1 6 request form for t h e purchase of the 1 7 equipment to which you have referred 1 8 A. I can't recall anymore than I 1 9 explained on the time frame of how long it 2 0 took to get the equipment, ancf when it was L i 2 1 first physically put to set up. 2 2 Q. And I believe you've testified I 2 3 that it was set up by the end of 1967? 2 4 A. That's my best recollection. 2 5 Q. Therefore, the capital request ! Ii GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI ... 59 STLCOPCB4026884 1 must have been put in in time for it to be 2 operational by that time period; correct? 3 MR. ZIMMER: It's argumentative, 4 calls for speculation. He's indicated he 5 doesn't know when it was made. 6 You can answer if you know any 7 more about than when it was ordered. That's 8 what he's after. 9 MR. TALLON: I don't think it's 1 0 mysterious. I'm just trying to establish 1 1 that in order for it to be working by the end 1 2 of 1967 it must have been ordered in time for 1 3 it to be there and working by then 1 4 A . I c a n ' t give you a time when 1 5 was ordered. I don ' t know a t this point 1 6 BY MR. TALLON: 1 7 Q. Do you believe it was in '67? 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 Q . Did you have any discussions with 2 0 other employee s of Monsanto about whether or f^ ` 2 1 not to purchas e the equipment? 2 2 A . I c annot give you exact names of 2 3 people, but it was our practice when we made 2 4 expenditures o f that size, we talked, both i 2 5 a t Monsanto and externally, as GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 60 . STLCOPCB4026885 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8: t. 9 j; ii 10 h i11i 1 1 i: 12 1 3 ii i; 14 | 15 j ] 16 j 17 18 ii 1 9 I; f; 20 21 22 23 24 25 much as possible to make the right decision on what equipment to get, so with that in mind, the answer is yes. Q. I take it from your answer that you don't remember individuals to whom you spoke? Is that right? A . No. Q. Do you remember at any point being requested to justify the expenditure? . A. That would have been m the capital appropriation write-up. Q. Do you have any recollection of what justification you furnished for the expenditure of $250,000 in 1967 dollars? A. It was to acquire this instrument and system for support of company product development, as well as environmental problems and concerns. Q. Environmental problems and concerns resulting from the Widmark and Jensen work? A. That could be a part of it. Q . Was there any -- well, was the Widmark and Jensen work a trigger for acquisition of this equipment or were there GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 61 STLCOPCB4026886 1 2 3 4 5, 6: 7' 8 t; 9 ij |i 1 0 j: 1 1 :i ij 12 13 1 4 ji 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 other reasons why it was deemed that in 1967, it w a s appropriate to acquire the equipment? A. It was -- it certainly helped. Q. What other factors went into the d e c i s ion to acquire the equipment, other than t h e h elp provided by the Widmark and Jensen p u b 1 i cation? A. Well, structurally, we were g e 11 i ng set up t o provide more support across t h e R & D effort , and it was a part of that, but a large part of it, certain 1y, came from our e nvironmental concerns, including PCB's. Q. Before the publication of the Widma rk and Jensen work, had you requested or discussed with anyone the ac q u i sition of a gas chroma tograph and mass s pec trometer supported by a computer syst e m ? A . That was prior to Q Prior to the publ i c a t i o n . 1966 publication? Q . Yes. A. I don't recall on that. Q. Doctor, do you have any f i recollection of the limits of your authorization for capital requests in 1966 or ! i I GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 62 STLCOPCB4026887 X :9o / r 2 A . I don ' t r e c all , but it wou 1 d have 3 been nominal a few t h o u s and dollars, i n that 4 range. 5 Q. Is it fair to say that the amounts 6 involved here mandated the approval of 7 personnel and higher in the organization than 8 you? 9 A. Correct. 1 0 Q. Do you know to whom your capital 1 1 request form was sent for approval? 1 2 A. That would have been through 1 3 the -- my best recollection, that would have 1 4 been to the managing director level or 1 5 general manager level and I don't remember 1 6 which one was in place at that time. but i t 1 7 would have been at a very high level. 1 8 0 When you say you don 't remember 1 9 which was in place at that time , you don'' t -- 2 0 are you meaning to say that you> don' t know 2 1 whether the use managering director or 2 2 general manager was in use? 2 3 A. Correct. I just don't remember. 2 4 Q. Notwithstanding the title in use 2 5 at that time, do you remember the person who GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 63 STLCOPCB4026888 1 J. had the responsibility or ability to approve o a capital request of the amount that you've 3 referred to? 4 A . I can't recall that. I just 5 can't. 6 Q. Now that we've talked about the 7 subject for a few more moments, do you have 8 any greater recollection of having discus s e d 9 the proposal to purchase the equipment wi t h 1 0 anyone else working for Monsanto at the t i m e ? 1 1 A . I don't recall at this point 1 2 anyone else. 1 3 Q. Does it refresh your recollection 1 4 if I ask whether you discussed purchase of 1 5 the equipment with Elmer Wheeler? . 1 6 A. I don't recall that. 17 Q. Does it refresh your recollection : 1 8 if I ask you whether you discussed purchase 1 9 of the equipment with Emmett Kelly? 2 0 A. I don't recall that. f` ; ;I * i 21 Q. Does it refresh your recollection j l 22 if I ask you whether you had any discussions | I tI 23 about thepurchase ofthe equipment with Mr. j 2 4 Emery? iii 25 A. No. No, no recollection there. ! GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 64 STLCOPCB4026889 Q . Doctor, what did you do with the 2 equipment once you got it? 3 A. We went forward full-bore to get 4 it set up and operational. This was a 5 challenge, in that we acquired a German 6 instrument, mass spectrometer, and a separate 7 gas chromatograph, which had tobe wedded 8 together through an interface or separator 9 device because of pressure differences, 1 0 extreme pressure differences between the gas 1 1 chromatograph and the mass spectrometer, plus 1 2 the need to eliminate much of the gas 1 3 throughput from the gas chromatograph that 1 4 would interfere with the mass spectrometer, 1 5 so the mass spectrometer was installed with, 1 6 I believe, a German serviceman, and the 1 7 system, as I best recall, was in the 1 8 laboratory facility and turned on, and 1 9 operational from that standpoint, not from 2 0 the standpoint of having met h,o dology samples 2 1 coming in, being ready to run them, so forth, 2 2 late 1967; and Scott Tucker was, at this 2 3 point, starting to get quite involved with 2 4 all that. 2 5 Q. Okay, and I gather from your GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 65 STLCOPCB4026890 1 2 3 4 5. 6! i I 7 8 .9 I 10 | 11 j 12 13 : 14 | 15 | 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 testimony that at a point i n time, the g a chromatograph was able to b e interconnect with the mass spectrometer? A. Yes, it did become operational and to the point that we could proceed, then, with full effort on developing methods as they were best needed, priority-wise, to obtain proper samples for analyses. Concurrent with this it was necessary for the mass spectroscopist not only to learn how to use this system but to interpret results out of it, which was extremely complicated. Also concurrent with going into '68 was trying to tie to this a computer system, which really was the key to making the whole thing work. To this point , there was no such system a v a ilable in the United S t a tes. The first one that I recall in the Uni ted States was from Burke & Elmer , and again as I best recall, it wojald have been about the time we were starting up our system. Q. Burke & Elmer manufactured the computer? A. The mass spectrometer gas GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 66 STLCOPCB4026891 1 chromatograph part of it. not the compute 2 part. 3 Q. Just to be clear, Burke & Elmer 4 manufactured equipment that you purchased or 5 you were aware that Burke & Elmer 6 manufactured other equipment? 7 A. No, they manufactured this system 8 that we're talking about, the GC, the mass, 9 for application to PCB-type analyses. It was 1 0 the first U.S. company that would, was 1 1 providing a system that could be bought, 1 2 brought into your facility and used for that 1 3 purpose. 1 4 Q. Did you acquire a Burke & Elmer 1 5 unit? 1 6 ' A. No. 17 Q. Do you know approximately when : 1 8 Burke & Elmer began sale of such units? 1 9 A. Well, this would be, I would say 2 0 my best recollection is late ,3 68, perhaps. ! 2 1 Q. Doctor, was there any discussion 2 2 that you remember having had about the 2 3 relationship of PCB's as found in the Jensen 2 4 and Widmark work to DDT? 2 5 A. Yes. There was a discussion, yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 67 STLCOPCB4026892 * Q And what is your understanding, if 2 you have one, about the relationship of DDT 3 to PCB's in the Jensen and Widmark work? 4 A. You are talking pesticides, that 5 type of materials? 6 Q . Yes, I am. 7 A. Well, Widmark, as I recall, was 8 involved in looking at pesticides by 9 chromatography, and being -- and was aware of 1 0 not being able to explain everything they saw 1 1 by that technique, and out of the application 1 2 of their system, GC/mass, they were able to 1 3 come up with what was reported then, so this 1 4 was, this was discussed on a limited basis. 1 5 That's about all I recall. 1 6 Q. Just to understand your answer 17 further, is it your understanding that : 1 8 Widmark and Jensen were looking for 1 9 pesticides and also found PCB's? 20 A. That's my understanding. That's ; " j- 2 1 the way I remember it. 2 2 Q. Do you recall having any reaction 2 3 to the apparent pairing of DDT's and PCB's 2 4 reported in the Widmark and Jensen work? : 25 A. Can you elaborate on apparent i GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 68 STLCOPCB4026893 1 pairing? 2 Q. Well, I'm just trying -- I don't 3 want to tell you what was in the study. I'm 4 attempting to work with your recollection, 5 and I understood your answer of a moment ago 6 to say that Widmark was looking for 7 pesticides and found PCB's; correct? 8 MR. ZIMMER: In addition to 9 pesticides? 10 MR. TALLON: Yes. 1 1 A. I recommended, as opposed to 12 Widmarkbeing out there suddenly searching 13 for PCB's. For some reason, he was involved 1 4 with, as I recall, with pesticides, and they 1 5 had this problem of not being able to explain 1 6 miscellaneous peaks popping up on them, so 1 7 they applied the equipment we talked about. 1 8 BY MR. TALLON: 1 9 Q. Yes, and is it your understanding 2 0 that the peaks are identified^through 2 1 analysis as being evidence of PCB's? 22 MR. ZIMMER: Which peaks ? 2 3 MR. TALLON: The peaks that Dr. 2 4 Keller just referred to. 2 5 MR. ZIMMER: The ones that were GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 69 STLCOPCB4026894 not identified as pesticides? 2 MR . TALLON: Right 3 A . I f you are asking did Widmark 4 identify PCB's in the p r e s e n c e of 5 pesticides -- 6 BY MR. TALLON: 7 Q . Yes. 8 A. My answer is yes. 9 Q. That was my question, yes. 1 0 Was there a discussion that you 1 1 recall among Monsanto personnel about the 1 2 explanation, if there was one, for finding 1 3 PCB's in the presence of pesticides as 1 4 reported by Widmark and Jensen? ! 15 A. There was no clear explanation of ; 16 source of the PCB's being found. There was I ! 1 7 concern on the part of Widmark on the j 1 8 specific chlorinated levels of PCB's found. 1 9 Widmark did comment that possibly the PCB's 2 0 were coming from tainted shi p-s or something 2 1 from the ^arbors. 2 2 Q. Do you recall any concern being 2 3 expressed by anyone at Monsanto with whom you t 2 4 spoke or communicated about the fact that i I i 25 PCB's were found together or in the presence ! GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 70 STLCOPCB4026895 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 I 1 5 it1,11 i 16 jj ii 17 j; 18 19 i hI ! i 20 21 22 23 24 25 of p e s t i c i d e s ? A . By Widmark? Q Yes A . Now , can we play that question back? You can play it back. MR . ZIMMER: Just have it read back. MR . TALLON: Yes, let's do that THE COURT REPORTER: "Q. Do you recall any concern being expressed by anyone at Monsanto with whom you spoke or communicated about the fact that PCB's were found together or in the presence of pesticides?" A . Yes, the re was cons iderable concern at Monsanto about the finding of PCB's , 1 e s s concern about the pesticide but great cone ern about the PCB's. BY MR. TALLON: Q. And as best you ca/i recollect today, can you describe the b a sis for such i concern or concerns? MR. ZIMMER: Call s for speculation i as to the basis of that for s u c h concern on anyone 's behalf but his own. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 71 STLCOPCB4026896 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ! 9j 10 11 12 13 14 | 15 j 16 j 17 i i 18 19 ! 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. TALLON: Q. As expressed to you. A. Well, the basis of concern is that Monsanto was always concerned if they had a product that was getting into the environment or released, which for some reason, others would show could be a problem, o r M o n s a n t o would show could be a problem, and t h i s was product that Monsanto had had for many years and had no problems with it, had done everything that was diligent to assure proper opera tions at that point in time, and they w a n t e d to get this thing resolved. BY MR . TALLON: Q. Was there any concern expressed to i--i <1) you at the time ated to the specific c h a r a c teristics O f PCB's, such as their virtual indestructibility? A. Well, of course, that's a characteristic of the product^ > 0 . Right. A. One of the reasons for its use, that it's a rather stable-type material. Q. Understood. Were there any concerns among those expressed to you in the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 72 STLCOPCB4026897 tu 3 4 5 6 7 ii 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 time period that we are discussing that related to that particular characteristic of the product? MR . ZIMMER: Its stability? MR. TALLON: That's the one that he just in entioned. MR. ZIMMER: I want to make sure we're not referring back to virtual indestructibility, which I think assumes facts not in evidence, but as long as it's ! stability, that's fine. A. You say concern, I havenothing I can recollect here that would focus on this. BY MR. TALLON: Q. Doctor, before you took a trip to ( | Europe, are you aware of whether or not other representatives of Monsanto visited with ! I i Widmark or with Jensen to discuss the results : of their published works? A. I'm not aware of a, Monsanto visit. I I! Widmark did visit Monsanto. Q. After the publication of his work? A. Yes, after. It's possible our European offices, someone could have visited there and I just simply don't remember that GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 73 STLCOPCB4026898 2 3 4` 5 , 6! f 7 i 8i 9 j! 10 i 1 1 ;i 12 13 | i 14 t i 1i 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 if that happened . Q D o you remember if Elme r Wheeler e v e r t r a v e 1 e d to Europe fo r the pu r p o s e of m e e t i n g with W idmark or Je n s e n ? A . Not to my knowl edge p r i or to our t r ip in 1 9 6 9. Q D o you recollec t w h e the r Dr. R i chard travel ed to Europe for the purpose of m e e t i n g either Widmark or R i c h a rd before your t r ip in 1 9 6 9 ? A . No . MR . ZIMMER: Do you m e a n Widmark or Jensen? Q What did I say? MR . ZIMMER: Ri chard MR. TALLON: That's what I meant. BY MR. TALLON: Q. Who accompanied you on the trip in 1969? A. Mr. Wheeler, of th^ Medical Department, myself, and on several parts of the trip, Mr. Hardy out of the Monsanto London office, and a visit to Widmark, Bill Richard, manager of the Product Group, I believe, was on that leg of the trip. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST.LOUIS, MISSOURI 74 STLCOPCB4026899 1 Q. Did Mr. Papageorge attend any 2 portion of that trip? 3 A. No, not that I recall. 4 Q. Doctor, do you recollect ever 5 having had any discussions with Emmett Kelly 6 with respect to contacting the Swedish 7 researchers following the publication of 8 their work? 9 A. That was Swedish -- . 1 0 Q. Widmark and Jensen. 1 1 A. I don't recall, specifically, any 1 2 discussion with Dr. Kelly. 1 3 Q. Just to be clear, does your answer 1 4 that you don't remember specifically suggest 1 5 that you have a general recollection? 1 6 A. I don't recall anything. 17 MR. TALLON: Let me show you a 1 8 document that bears production numbers BIR 1 9 007699. 2 0 I'll ask the reporter to mark that | 21 as the next one in order. It also has 2 2 another notation on it, but we won't read 2 3 that one into the record. 2 4 (Plaintiff's Deposition ! 2 5 Exhibit 282 marked for GOREREPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 75 STLCOPCB4026900 1 identification.) 2 (Witness peruses said 3 document.) 4 BY MR. TALLON: 5 Q. Doctor, for the record, that 6 appears to be a memorandum from Dr . Kelly to 7 Mr. Wilde dated February 21 , 1967, which 8 appears to have been copied to you . Do you 9 recollect having seen that memorandum before 1 0 today? 1 1 A. I don't recall this memorandum. 1 2 Q. Does reading the paragraph 1 3 numbered 3 refresh your recollection in any 1 4 respect as to whether you communicated with 1 5 Dr. Kelly on the subject of contact with the 1 6 Swedish people or with Jensen and Widmark? 1 7 A. I don't recall any discussion of 1 8 that type. 1 9 Q. Did there come a time, Doctor, 2 0 when the equipment that you h^a d . purchased , 2 1 the mass spectrometer and the gas 2 2 chromatograph and the computer, were ! i j 2 3 sufficiently integrated and running that they j 2 4 wereusedtoperformtests"? ; 25 A. Do you want to play that question ; ( GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI . . 76 STLCOPCB4026901 back? 2 THE COURT REPORTER: 3 "Q. Did there come a time, 4 Doctor, when the equipment that you had 5 purchased, the mass spectrometer and the gas 6 chromatograph and the computer, were 7 sufficiently integrated and running that they 8 were usedto perform tests? 9 A . Yes. 1 0 BY MR. TALLON: 1 1 Q. And approximately when, to the 1 2 best of your recollection, did that time 1 3 arrive? 1 4 A. Throughout 1968. 1 5 Q. Can you describe for me in general 1 6 terms what tests were conducted using the new 17 equipment, as those tests related to PCB's? 1 8 A . They were -- -- the test w a s used to 19 to 1 o 0 at a variety o f material s e lected by 2 0 the business unit in conjunction w i t h the 2 1 M e d i cal Department, and ranged from certain 2 2 environmental materials, which I have no 2 3 recollection what they were at this time, all 2 4 the way to support of toxicity studies out of 2 5 the Medical Department or through the Medical GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 77 STLCOPCB4026902 Department, involving tissue analyses, so 2 forth . 3 Also included would be certain 4 environmental types of materials, perhaps 5 water samples from streams, lakes, so forth. 6 Q. To the best of your knowledge, 7 were written records prepared of the results 8 of the tests performing or used -- performed 9 with the use of that new equipment? . 1 0 A. Yes. 1 1 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, 1 2 did you see such written reports? 1 3 A. Partofthem. 1 4 Q. What part did you see? 1 5 A. Part that would be formalized as a 1 6 report out of Applied Sciences, part of a 17 group report with my name on it as a copyee. : 1 8 I would not see the standard group reports 1 9 going back to the clients on certain parts of 2 0 theproject. ( ; 2 1 Q. As I am unfamiliar with these 2 2 reports, Doctor, could you explain to me what 2 3 information would be included in the section 24 of the reports that you believe you did not j / 2 5 see? ; GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 78 STLCOPCB4026903 1 A . It wwaass ssttaannddaarrdd pprraaccttiiccee ooff the 2 Analytical Group and the other groups, too, 3 to receive client work projects on a standard 4 form: What the material was, a reason for 5 the request, what the problem was, what 6 information was needed, and the result then 7 would be put on the back of this same copy, 8 with appropriate copies made, and retained, 9 and sent back to the client. These, in turn, 1 0 could become a basis for more formal 1 1 reporting later, and I did not see those 1 2 group reports going out, because it was such 1 3 that the group leader could handle, he or she 1 4 was respons i b 1 e for t h e professional work 1 5 being done. and back t o the client. 1 6 Q Were the r e s u Its of the tests 1 7 being conducted with the new equipment 1 8 reported to you orally a t any point? 1 9 A . That was a standard practice 2 0 continuously. 2 1 Q. Was it fair to say, therefore, 2 2 that you were being kept abreast of the 2 3 results of the testing going on using the new 2 4 equipment? 2 5 A. Yes, to varying degrees, depending GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 79 STLCOPCB4026904 1 cn which part cf it was being worked on, and 2 so forth. It varied greatly. 3 Q . Was Mr. Tucker the gentleman 4 responsible for conducting the tests? 5 A . Yes. 6 Q. Did he have anyone working for 7 him? 8 A. Yes, he did. 9 Q. Can you identify those gentlemen, 1 0 or gen11emen/1 adies? 1 1 A. There was a William Mees, M-e-e-s, 1 2 a Chester Brackbill, and without an 1 3 organization chart, I can't help you. 1 4 Q. Is Mr. Tucker still working for 1 5 Monsanto today -- 1 6 A . No . 1 7 Q. -- as far as you know? 1 8 A . No . 1 9 Q. Is he retired? 20 A. No. He left Monsanto. ; * 21 Q. And do you know where he is today? ! | 22 A. I understand he's in North |< 2 3 Carolina, but I don't know exactly where. I 2 4 Q. North Carolina? ; 25 A. Mm-hmm. (Nods head in affirmative : GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 80 STLCOPCB4026905 anne 2 MR. ZIMMER: I believe his 3 deposit ion is scheduled for later this month. 4 BY MR . TALLON : 5 Q . Mr. Mees, do you know where he is 6 today? 7 A He i s r e t i r e d . 8 Q Do you know where he is today? 9 A H e ' s i n the St. Louis area. 1 0 That's all I can say. 1 1 Q . And do you know where Mr. 1 2 Brackbi 11 is today? 1 3 A . He is retired and in the St. Louis 1 4 area. 1 5 Q . Were you ever asked to draw any 1 6 overall conclusions from the results of 1 7 individual tests being conducted by Mr. ; 1 8 Tucker and his group? 1 9 A. I can't recall any specific situation where that happened^ > 20 : ! 2 1 Q. Were there different aroclors used 2 2 or searched for in Mr. Tucker's tests, so far 2 3 as you know? 2 4 A. Yes. 2 5 Q. Do you know what aroclors were GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 81 STLCOPCB4026906 X used or searched fcr in Mr. Tucker's tests in 2 1968? 3 A . It would have involved the 1200 4 series . 5 Q. Would that have included, to the 6 best of your knowledge, Aroclor 1242? 7 A . Yes. 8 Q. And Doctor, to be sure that we're 9 using the same terms with the same meanings, 1 0 could you define what you mean when you refer 1 1 to Aroclor 1242? 1 2 A. It's -- it denotes two phenyl 1 3 rings, the 12, and 42 percent chlorine on the 1 4 rings. 1 5 Q. 42 percent in absolute terms or on 1 6 average? 17 MR. ZIMMER: What do you mean by 1 8 absolute terms, Counsel? 1 9 BY MR TALLOK: 2 0 Q. I mean, is it 42 percent period or 2 1 is it 42 percent on average by weight? 2 2 A. You'll have to ask the Business 23 Group on that. I'm not sure. 2 4 BY MR TALLON: iI 2 5 Q. Okay. Do you know whether Aroclor GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 82 STLCOPCB4026907 1 1242 contains any more highly- chlorinated 2 aroclors, or only aroclors i n 42 percent 3 weight? 4 A. Well, Aroclor 1242 is composed 5 primarily of four chlorine-type isomers and 6 lower, and not the higher-ch1orinated 7 isomers. 8 Q. Are there any more highly 9 chlorinated isomers in the Aroclor 1242, to 1 0 your knowledge? 1 1 A. To my knowledge, Aroclor 1242 is 1 2 essentially free of that, of higher 1 3 chlorinated species, 5 and 6 chlorinated 1 4 species. 1 5 Q. Just to be sure, did you say 1 6 essentially free of or free of? 1 7 A . I ' m not aware o f 5 and 6 in 1 8 Aroclor 1242. 1 9 Q Do ctor, did you ever do any work 2 0 while you wer e employed by M op. santo to try to 2 1 refine detect ion methods for the presence of 2 2 PCB ' s ? 2 3 A. Can you expand a little bit on 2 4 detection methods? I'm not trying to be 2 5 evasive, but -- GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 83 STLCOPCB4026908 Q . Well, let me back up, perhaps, for 2 a more vocal question. Let's say by 1966, 3 how would you look for -- what methods would 4 you use to determine the presence of PCB's in 5 a given substance? 6 A . We would have -- I can't recall 7 that we did that, ever, to specifically 8 identify PCB's as such. We had techniques, 9 gas chromatography, and with known systems. 1 0 w h e r e if you have a product and you know 1 1 e x a c t1y what'' s in that product, you can then 1 2 use gas chromatography to advantage and b e 1 3 safe. Once it gets in the environment, then 1 4 that's a different story, so we had that 1 5 capability of gas chromatography and that 1 6 would have been the technique of choice. 17 MR. TALLON: Let me show you a 1 8 document that we'll mark as the next exhibit 1 9 in order, and it's a one-page memorandum 2 0 dated February 15th, 1968, bearing production 2 1 number TRAN 008410, and we'll ask the court 2 2 reporter to mark that. 2 3 (Plaintiff's Deposition 2 4 Exhibit 283 marked for 2 5 identification. ) GOREREPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 84 STLCOPCB4026909 X (Witness peruses said 2 document , ) 3 BY MR. TALLON: 4 Q. Doctor, do you recollect ever 5 having seen that memorandum before today? 6 A . I don't recall th i s 7 Q Do you recall eve r h a ving been 8 asked by a M r . Donald E. R o u s c h whether 9 contamination of cooking oil s w i th Aroclor 1 0 1242 could b e detected at t h e 1 e v e1 of a 1 1 hundred parts per million ? 1 2 A . I don't recall t h a t 0 13 MR . TALLON: L e t m e s how you 1 4 another document which is a one-page memo 15 dated March 26, 1968, and bearing production i 16 number TRAN 057807, and I'll ask the court ; I 1 7 reporter to mark that. ! j 18 (Plaintiff's Deposition ; 19 Exhibit 284 marked for ; 2 0 identificati op. . ) 2 1 BY MR. TALLON: 2 2 Q. Take a moment and review that, 2 3 please . 2 4 (Witness peruses said 2 5 document. ) GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 85 STLCOPCB4026910 1 EY MR. TALLON: 2 Q. Doctor, does reading that 3 memorandum dated March 26, 1968, refresh your 4 recollection in any respect about any work 5 that y ou or your group did with respe c t t o 6 detect ion of PCB'' s in c o o k i ng oil? 7 A . D o e s n '1 t help a b i t ,, but I don ' t 8 recall . 9 MR. ZIMMER: Can we go off the 1 0 record for a second? 1 1 MR. TALLON: Yeah. 1 2 (Discussion off the record.) 1 3 MR. ZIMMER: Back on. 1 4 BY MR. TALLON: 1 5 Q. Doctor, when did -- when was the 1 6 first time that it was suggested to you that 17 you should travel to Europe with the other 1 8 gentlemen whose names you mentioned in 1 9 1969 -- to travel in 1969? 2 0 A. Well, my best recollection would \ i 21 be it would be late 1968 or very early 1969. i 2 2 Q. And to the best of your 2 3 recollection, from what source did you learn 24 I 25 that such a trip could take place? A. Through the Medical Department and GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 86 STLCOPCB4026911 1 the Business Group, Functional Fluids . 2 Q. Do you recall that particular 3 person or persons communicating with you 4 about the possibility of such a trip? 5 A . Yes. 6 Q . Who ? 7 A. Elmer Wheeler. 8 Q. And do you recollect Mr. Wheeler 9 communicating with you orally, or in writing, j 10 or both? ; 11 A. Certainly, orally. I don't recall , 1 2 anything in writing. 1 3 Q. Do you recollect anyone other than 14 Mr. Wheeler having communicated with you in ; ! 15 late '68 or early '69 about the possibility | 1 6 ofsuchatrip? 17 A . Yes . 1 8 Q. Who? i | | iI | 19 A. Thatwould have been Dr. Richard. j 2 0 Q. Do you recollect anyone other than 2 1 Mr. Richard having communicated with you 2 2 about such a trip in the time period to which 2 3 you have referred? 2 4 A . No . 2 5 Q. And what, if any,communications GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 87 STLCOPCB4026912 1 dc you recollect today having received from 2 Dr. Richard on the subject of the trip in 3 late '68 or early '69? 4 A. The message from Mr. Wheeler and 5 Mr. Richard was that it seemed appropriate to 6 obtain information firsthand from Widmark. 7 Also, it was at that point my input that it 8 would help also for us to do this to compare 9 our progress on methodology with Widmark and 1 0 their operations on a one-to-one basis. 1 1 Q. Is it your recollection that Dr. 1 2 R i c hard and Mr . W h e eler cont acted you ' 1 3 tog ether i n o r d e r t o discuss this t rip? 1 4 A . I don ' t remember that. 1 5 Q D o y o u r ecollect s p e c i f i c 1 6 s t a t e m e n t s m a d e t o you about the t r ip in late 1 7 ' 6 8 or ear iy ' 6 9 by Dr. Rich a r d , a s o p p o s e d 1 8 t o Mr. W h e e 1 e r ? 1 9 A . I h a v e n o recolle c t i o n o f that r 2 0 either. ,^ 2 1 Q. Do you recollect specific t 2 2 statements made to you by Mr. Wheeler on the 2 3 subject of the trip in either late '68 or 2 4 early '69? 2 5 A . No . i GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 88 STLCOPCB4026913 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 II i 20 21 22 23 l 24 25 Q You said that your input was that would be helpful to compare methodology, e-to- face? A . Correct . Q And in what respect did you believe then that such a face-to-face meeting to compare methodology would be helpful? A. Because it was at the stage where we were just becoming reasonably competent on applying the techniques, the method, development of skills and instrumentation techniques, and we felt that Widmark and Jensen could contribute significantly and, perhaps, move us along even faster in our efforts t o g e t on top of this, and this was consistent w i th Widmark, also. He was a very willing -- h e had worked through communiques with, as i n d i cated earli e r , with our European offices , and he was very willing to do this with us . /,, Q. Had you communicated in any fashion with Widmark before actually making the trip? A. I did not. Q . Who did? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 89 STLCOPCB4026914 1 A . Elmer Wheeler. 2 Q. Do you know what subject or 3 subjects Mr. Wheeler and Widmark discussed? 4 A. My best recollection is it was a 5 broad-brush approach of the PCB situation for 6 discussion. 7 Q. Can you be any more specific than 8 that? 9 A. Well, it would be directed toward 1 0 their findings of PCB's, their techniques and 1 1 methodology and equipment, and future plans. 1 2 Q. Do you have a recollection of ever 1 3 having discussed with Mr. Wheeler the 1 4 communications he had with Widmark- with 1 5 respect to future plans? 1 6 A . I don' t recall that. 1 7 Q Do you recall ever ever hearing 1 8 Mr . Wheeler or from any other source 1 9 more about the content of Mr. Wheeler's 2 0 communications with either Jensen or Widmark 2 1 than that which you have just told me? 2 2 A . No. 2 3 Q. Did you ever see any memoranda in 2 4 which Mr. Wheeler reported on his 2 5 communications with Widmark and/or Jensen? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 90 STLCOPCB4026915 1 A . I have no recollection of any. 2 Q. In planning for the trip that took 3 place in 1969, was there any discussion with 4 respect to the subject of why the trip had 5 not taken place earlier than 1969? 6 A. I don't recall any such 7 discussion. My -- what I think I recall is 8 that we had our hands full trying to get 9 ourselves up to full speed with equipment and 1 0 resources of all kinds, undergoing 1 1 organizational changes superimposed on top of 1 2 that, and we were looking for an appropriate 1 3 time to do i t . 1 4 Q For an appropriate time to do it? 1 5 A . An appropriate time to make the 1 6 visit , and it's my best recoil e c t i o n i t was a 17 general consensus that it was better for us, ^ , 18 we would get, make more progress going over . 1 9 there with some experience behind us and ; 20 talking than to go over cold > 2 1 Q . Was it ever your desire to involve 2 2 Jensen and Widmark in the process of setting 2 3 up your new equipment? 2 4 A . No . i 2 5 Q. Was it ever suggested or GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 91 STLCOPCB4026916 1 recoin rr. ended to you by Mr. Tucker or anyone 2 else that Widmark or Jensen could be of 3 assistance in setting up the new equipment? 4 A . Not t h a t I recall . 5 Q - Was i t eve r suggested to you or 6 recommended t o you by Mr. Tucker or anyone 7 else that Widmark or Jensen might be helpful 8 in the initial use of the equipment that had 9 been purchased in '67? 1 0 A. Not that I recall. 1 1 Q. In 1968, to the best of your 1 2 recollection, did you have any communications 1 3 with representatives of Industrial Bio-Test 1 4 for the purpose of having them run tests with 1 5 respect to PCB's? 1 6 A . Yes. 1 7 0 . And -- 1 8 A. With the qualification, you said 1 9 19 6 8 , and I ' m not cl e a r in my mind w h a t year, 2 0 but there was discus s i on in t p. at g e n e r a 1 2 1 peri o d . 1 1 ! i1 22 Q The g e n e r a 1 period would be what l i 2 3 period. Dr. Keller? 2 4 A. Well, the late Sixties is the best 2 5 I could do on that one. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 92 STLCOPCB4026917 Q All right and who was the person 2 or who were the persons with whom you 3 communicated at Industrial Bio-Test? 4 A. You mean on a one-to-one direct, 5 or through communications with two groups 6 meeting or whatever? 7 Q . Well , why don't you tell 8 whether you had any one-to-one dire 9 communications with representatives 10 Industrial Bio-Test. Did you? 11 A. I don't recall any. My answer is 1 2 no, and I don't recall any. 1 3 Q D o you re collect having been a 1 4 participant i n group c o m m u n i cations such as a 1 5 meeting? 1 6 A. Ye s . , 17 Q. And whom do you recall being the ; 18 participants in those group communications? : 19 A. Participants were Dr. Calandra, , 2 0 and Dr. Fancher, and I can't come up with any : -V ' i. 2 1 other names. 2 2 Q. Are Drs. Calandra and Fancher 2 3 representatives of Industrial Bio-Test? 2 4 A. Yes. 25 Q. And whom do you recall were the ! GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 93 STLCOPCB4026918 participants in such communications from 2 Monsanto's perspective? 3 A . That would be Dr. Kelly, Mr. 4 Wheeler, Dr. Richard. 5 Q. And yourself? 6 A. And myself. Those are the 7 principals I remember. 8 Q. Are you suggesting by your answer 9 that there were others or may have been , 1 0 others involved? 1 1 A. I can't recall any others. ; 1 2 Q. Are you referring to meetings in 1 3 the past -- in the few answers that you have 1 4 given, with respect to the communications you 1 5 participated in with Industrial Bio-Test? 1 6 A. That I participated in? : 1 7 Q. Yes. ; 18 A. Correct. Also, I should add to 19 the previous question and answer, of course, 2 0 Scott Tucker would be involv e,d in those j 2 1 discussions . 2 2 Q. Your answers respecting your 2 3 communications with Industrial Bio-Test, were ! 2 4 they to meetings? Is that correct? 2 5 A. Correct. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST . LOUIS, MISSOURI 94 STLCOPCB4026919 1 Are you referring to one meeting 2 or more than one meeting? 3 A. I can't focus on one meeting for 4 you. I just don't remember. 5 Q. And in general, can you describe 6 what you understood the purpose of those 7 meetings to have been? 8 A. These were project p1 anning-type 9 meetings for toxicity testing, for work to be 1 0 carried out by Industrial Bio-Test, and for 1 1 monitoring, as needed, appropriate materials 1 2 from the testing, analytical monitoring by 1 3 our Analytical Group, Applied Sciences. 1 4 Q. Do you have any recollection as 1 5 you sit here today of what projects 1 6 Industrial Bio-Test was asked to take on for 1 7 Monsanto? 1 8 A. No, I can't play back those 1 9 toxicity test programs for you. 2 0 Q Without regard -- { . 2 1 A . I know they went from 90-day tests 2 2 to long- term tests. 2 3 Q Without regard to the specific 2 4 kinds o f tests involved, are you able to 2 5 state i n general the kind of work that was GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS , MISSOURI 95 STLCOPCB4026920 being requested of Industrial Bio-Test? 2 A. My only comment on that, based on 3 what I can recall is, that it was for them to 4 use their standard toxicity testing to look 5 at materials of concern to us, products of 6 concern, and related materials. 7 Beyond that, this was the 8 bailiwick of the Medical Department. 9 Q. And what was your understanding of 1 0 the reason for your involvement in these 1 1 communications, given that the essential 1 2 project was the bailiwick of the Medical 1 3 Department? 1 4 A. It was necessary to be sure that 1 5 the amount of components being tested added 1 6 to whatever exposure method they used, . 1 7 whether it was feeding, air, exposure, ; 1 8 whatever, would be at the appropriate level 1 9 that the analytical techniques could be used, 20 method-wise, and that sacrificed animals and j 2 1 tissues would be appropriately handled with 2 2 the appropriate methodology, so we had to be 2 3 assured we had the right methods in place 2 4 before they took off with the study. 2 5 Usually, we had no problem with that GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 96 i STLCOPCB4026921 coordination. 2 Q Did there come a time when you 3 have a problem with that? 4 A . Not that I remember. 5 MR . TALLON : All right, we can 6 certainly take our luncheon break. 7 (Luncheon recess from 12:30 8 to 1:15.) 9 BY MR. TALLON: 1 0 Q. Dr. Keller, I just have a couple 1 1 of points I wanted to touch back on before we ; 12 continued. In our discussion earlier today 1 3 when you were referring to some of the work 1 4 that you did, you referred to work of your 1 5 department for clients? ; 16 A. Mm-hmm. (Nods head in affirmative j i 17 manner) . i 18 Q. Are you using the term "clients" ; 1 9 to describe other business units within 2 0 Mons an to , or outs ide cus tome r.-s of Monsanto ! 21 products, or both? 2 2 A. Inside Monsanto only. We had no 2 3 outside clients. 24 Q . In other words, your group didn't ! I 2 5 do work for customers of Mons anto ? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 97 STLCOPCB4026922 1_ A. Our group did work for Monsanto 2 groups' customers but not outside Mons a n t o . 3 Does that answer your question? 4 Q. I think s o . My understandi ng - - 5 well,. I don't know ; w e don't want my 6 understanding. Is i t correct that the work 7 your group did was for other business units 8 in Monsanto? 9 A. Yes. 1 0 Q. And you did no work for 1 1 third-party customers who were purchasers of 1 2 product from Monsanto, such as General 1 3 Electric? 1 4 A. My answer is yes, with this 1 5 qualification: We might do work, as all 1 6 companies do, for a customer which would come 1 7 back through our, our other groups, sales or 1 8 whatever, as an accommodation. That's 1 9 standard business practice, but we didn't do 2 0 it for hire or anything like j: h a t . 2 1 Q. And could you describe just 2 2 briefly what kind of work you recollect 2 3 having done for customers as an 2 4 accommodation? 2 5 A. I can't recall any because that GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 98 STLCOPCB4026923 1 was so seldom. 2 Q Earlier, we had been discussing 3 mass spectrometer, gas chromatographer 4 no, not gas chromatographer , gas 5 chromatograph and the computer system. Is 6 there a name that you used to describe that 7 unit or those three integrated units? 8 A. Well, unfortunely, no. Probably 9 the best thing is just GC/mass system. 1 0 Q. Is that term, GC/mass system, a 1 1 term that was used at the time to talk about 1 2 these three interrelated units? 1 3 A . Yes. 1 4 Q. And if I use that, you'll 1 5 understand that I mean to refer to the 1 6 computer, the spectrometer, and the gas 1 7 chromatograph? 1 8 A. Yes, especially if we don't want -- 1 9 if we know what time frame we're talking 2 0 about. /. 2 1 Q. Afterthe installation of the 2 2 GC/mass system in 1968, was the system used 2 3 for testing for materials other than PCB's? 2 4 A . Yes. 2 5 Q. Whatother materials? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 99 STLCOPCB4026924 1 A . I can't give a listing of exact 2 types of materials, but it would hav e been 3 products of interest to the Organic Chemicals 4 Division. 5 Q. In 1968, if you are able to say, 6 what percentage of the tests run on the 7 GC/mass system were PCB-related tests? 8 A. My best estimate is 50 percent. 9 Q . And to recap on something you said 1 0 earlier, was it a reason f or purchas i n g the 1 1 GC/mass system to attempt to duplica t e the 1 2 results evidenced by the W idmark and Jensen 1 3 study? 1 4 A . Not to duplicat e , but to establish 1 5 in our own house, with our own skills, our 1 6 own -- get our own data and information so we 1 7 could be absolutely sure of the results. 1 8 Q. Producing your own results as a 1 9 consequence of that study was a reason for 2 0 purchasing the GC/mass system? 21 A. That, andapplying it to other 2 2 problems that we presumed we might have to 2 3 become involved with. 2 4 Q. What other problemswere you 2 5 presuming you might have to become involved GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 0 STLCOPCB4026925 1 with? 2 A. Toxicity studies and analyses 3 .related to that, for example. 4 Q. And is the "that" used in your 5 sentence, answer just now, PCB's? 6 ;; A. (Nods head in affirmative manner). 7: Q. You need to answer orally. 8 A . Yes. 9 j| i1 1 0 |! 11 i; i: Ml 12 : Q. In preparation for your trip to Europe, did you personally intend to discuss with Widmark and Jensen any of the test results that had emanated from your use of 1 3 " the G C / mass syst e m ? 1 4 !' jj 1 5 j; A . W e d i dn't go with the concept of showing results necessarily. It was to be 16 r i: the other direct ion that they were going t o 1 7 ij tell us and show us about their, what t h ey 1 8 had done and the ir skills , so it w a s n ' t 1 9 really a part of our miss ion for them to d r a 2 0 ! judgments or pro vide inputs oaj in -house 2 1 findings. 2 2 Q . Never t h e 1 e s s , did you go prepared I 2 3 | to discuss parti cular findings or particular | 2 4 !'i ii 25 problems with them? A. Not that I recall. ! GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 1 STLCOPCB4026926 1 Q. On the European trip where you met 2 with Drs. or Professors Widmark and Jensen, 3 did you meet with others, as well? 4 A . Yes. 5 Q . Was the visit with Widmark and 6 Jensen one leg of a multi-leg trip, if you 7 will? 8 A . Yes. 9 . Q. At the time of the publication of 1 0 the Widmark and Jensen work, were there any 1 1 other published studies of which you had 1 2 knowledge relating to PCB's being found in 1 3 the environment? 1 4 A. You said published studies? 1 5 0 . Yes. 1 6 A. None that I was aware of. 17 Q. Were there any other studies, 1 8 published or not, of which you were aware, in 1 9 existence at or about the time of the 2 0 publication of the Jensen-Widmark work? 2 1 A . No . 2 2 Q. Was there any in-house analyses by 2 3 Monsanto personnel in 1966 or earlier which 2 4 related to the presence of PCB's in the 2 5 environment? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 2 STLCOPCB4026927 Not to r, y knowledge. 2 Q. Were there other, any other -- did 3 you have any basis for having concern about 4 the presence of PCB's in the environment in 5 1966 other than the Jensen and Widmark study? 6 A . No . 7 Q. I asked you a moment ago if the 8 European trip involved visits to others than 9 Jensen and Widmark, and you indicated that it 1 0 did. 1 1 As best as you can recall, what 1 2 was the overall objective, if any, to be 1 3 accomplished by the European trip that we 1 4 have been discussing in 1969? 1 5 A. It was an information-gathering to 1 6 determine what we could about whatwas known 1 7 on the part of others working in some way 1 8 with this problem. 1 9 Q. Who selected the entities or 2 0 persons who would be visited by you in your 2 1 group in order to get information? 2 2 A . The M e d i c a 1 Department. 2 3 Q Who within the Medical Department 2 4 had that responsibili ty, if it's one person, 2 5 or whom were they? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 3 STLCOPCB4026928 A . Elmer Wheeler. 2 Q. In preparation for that trip, did 3 you suggest to Mr. Wheeler the names of any 4 entities or individuals who should be on the 5 itinerary? 6 A. Well, the obvious one was Widmark 7 and Jensen -- 8 MR. ZIMMER: His question was, did 9 you suggest any names to Mr. Wheeler. 1 0 A . And m y answer is yes, Widmark and 1 1 Jensen . 12 MR . ZIMMER: I just w anted to m a k 1 3 sure that was one you suggested, not that 1 4 they were just a n obvious -- 1 5 BY MR. TALLON: 1 6 Q Any others that you r e c a 1 1 today? 1 7 A . Not that I recall. 1 8 Q. I believe you testified earlier. 1 9 Dr. Keller, that Professor Widmark had 2 0 visited Monsanto; is that co r, r ect? 2 1 A. Correct. 2 2 Q. Do you know when Professor 2 3 Widmark's visit to Monsanto took place? 2 4 A. My best recollection is that would 2 5 have been very early '69, and I don't recall GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 4 STLCOPCB4026929 1 beyond that, I guess. 2 Q. Was that Professor Widmark's first 3 in-person visit to Monsanto, so far as you 4 know? 5 MR . ZIMMER: Calls for 6 speculation. 7 A. It's the only one I'm aware of at 8 this point in time. 9 BY MR. TALLON: 1 0 Q. Just for the sake of clarity, is 1 1 that the only trip by Professor Widmark to 1 2 Monsanto for all eternity, for all time? 1 3 A. Yes. 1 4 Q. And during that visit, did you 1 5 meet with Professor Widmark? 1 6 A . I met with Professor Widmark 1 7 briefly, and I'm not sure if it was that 1 8 visit or another visit, if he made another 19 visit. I just don't know. 2 0 Q. Do you recollect anything about 21 your brief with Professor Widmark on his 2 2 early 1969 visit to Monsanto? 2 3 A. It simply involved a ten- or 2 4 fifteen-minute quick discussion about PCB 2 5 methodology, and exchanges we best had time GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 5 STLCOPCB4026930 1 for; an extremely brief meeting. 2 Q Did you meet with Professor 3 Hiamark in your office? 4 A . Yes. 5 Q Were others present on that 6 occasion? 7 A . Not that I r e c a 1 1 . 8 Q Did you i n t r oduce Professor 9 Widmark to anyone a t t h e time that he visited 1 0 with you? 1 1 A . Not that I r e c a 11 . 1 2 Q Did you show Professor Widmar k the 1 3 GC/mass sys tern on that occasion? 1 4 A . I t ' s my r e c o llection he did g e t a 1 5 walk-by of what we had, but that's -- I' m 1 6 unclear in m y mind just what that involv e d - 17 Q Do you have an understanding a s t o 1 8 the length o f time Prof essor Widmark spent a t 1 9 Monsanto during his trip to St. Louis in 2 0 early '69? o` 21 A. No . I'll -- my mind would I 2 2 indicate several days, but I'm not sure o f 23 that. I don't know. 2 4 Q Do you have any knowledge or 2 5 information as to the identities of any other GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI I 10 6 STLCOPCB4026931 1 person or persons with whom he met during his 2 visit? 3 A . Well, he -- persons, I cannot. 4 It's in my mind that he met with the Medical 5 Department personnel, and plant, 6 ana 1ytica 1-type personnel at the plant, and 7 that's all, and I can't tell you who would be 8 involved. 9 Q . By "plant," what do you mean to 1 0 refer to? 1 1 A. Well, as I think I remember 1 2 something about that part of it, it would be 1 3 the Queeny Plant in St. Louis. 1 4 Q. Do you have any present' 1 5 understanding as to why he visited that 1 6 particular plant? 17 A. I don't recall anything on that. 1 8 I was not involved in that part of it. 1 9 Q Do you have any knowledge as 2 0 whether h e met with Mr . Wh e ele r ? 21 A No . A s I say, he met with th 2 2 Medical Department, but I cannot -- I'll 2 3 simply add,r my best recoil ection is that 2 4 Wheeler brought Ed by. 2 5 Q. To your office? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 7 STLCOPCB4026932 X1 A. To m y office. Beyond that, I just 2 can't recall. 3 Q. Do you recollect having heard any 4 reports from others of their meetings with 5 Professor Widmark? 6 A . No . 7 Q. Do you have any understanding as 8 to whether Monsanto covered the expenses of 9 Professor Widmark's travel to St. Louis? 1 0 A. I have no idea on that. 1 1 Q. Do you have any recollection of 1 2 whether there was a particular agenda for 1 3 discussions with Professor Widmark other than 1 4 as you have already testified? 1 5 A . No . 1 6 Q. Do you recollect whether there was 17 any plan to discuss data concerning PCB's in ! 1 8 tissues with Professor Widmark? 1 9 A . No . 20 MR. TALLON: Let m^ showyoua i 2 1 one-page document which appears to be a 2 2 letter dated April 7, 1969, bearing 2 3 production number TRAN 059255. j 24 (Plaintiff's Deposition | 25 Exhibit 285 marked for il i GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i 10 8 STLCOPCB4026933 1 2 3 4 5 6: 7. i. 8: 9 ji I* 1 0 j: 1 1 j: 12 : 13 j; 1 4 !' I; 15 |! h 1 6 |{ !t i' 17 j! i| 1 8 !i 19 ( 20 21 22 23 i 24 25 identification. ) BY MR. TALLON: Q. My sole question for you, here. Dr. Keller, is whether a review of that exhibit enhances your recollection in any respect as to the subject or subjects you intended to discuss with Professor Widmark on your 1969 visit. (Witness peruses said document.) MR. ZIMMER: We're now talking about Dr. Keller's visit to Europe, rather than Dr. Widmark's visit to Monsanto? MR. TALLON: MR. ZIMMER: That's right. Okay. The only reason I bring that up is that your prior questions about whether there was any schedule relating to Dr. Widmark ' s visit to discuss animal tissues, and the like, were related to Dr. Widmark's visi^ and not Dr. Keller's visit. MR. TALLON: I intended that last question to refer to Dr. Keller's visit. MR. ZIMMER: Okay. Just so we have the right transition. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 10 9 STLCOPCB4026934 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 | i 11 n 12 : I 1 3 i' ii 1 4 !| 1 5 ! I; ! 1 6 jj Ii 1 7 j; 18 ; 19 20 ! i 21 22 2 3 !! 24 25 (Witness peruses said document . ) BY MR. TALLON: Q. And the question was whether reviewing that exhibit enhanced your recollection in any respect as to the subjects discussed with Dr. Widmark on your visit to Europe. A . No . MR. TALLON: Let me have the court reporter mark as the next exhibit a one-page memorandum to which is attached an itinerary, bearing production numbers TRAN 0 5 8 7 6 9, indicates a letter, and 746 through 7 4 8, indicates the itinerary. __ (Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 286 marked for identification.) (Witness peruses said document.) ,, BY MR. TALLON: Q. Did you get a chance to look at those, Dr. Keller? Now? Yes. Did you? [ I i I GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 110 STLCOPCB4026935 A. M m - h m ir, . (Nods head in affirmative 2 manner) . 3 Q. Okay. Had you seen the memorandum 4 from Elmer Wheeler in 1969? Do you recollect 5 having seen it? 6 A. No, I have no recollection of 7 that. 8 Q. What about the itinerary which I 9 have also furnished to you? 1 0 A. I don't recall that. 1 1 Q. Does the -- I understand this is 1 2 somewhat difficult, due to the passage of 1 3 time, but does the itinerary seem to 1 4 represent to you an accurate depiction of the 1 5 trip that you have been r e f e r r i n g t o a s the 1 6 19 6 9 v i s i t to E u r o p e ? 1 7 A . I n the m a i n . 1 8 Q I s it th e c a s e , Dr . Kell er , that 1 9 the only Monsanto r e p r e sen t a t i v e s who went 2 0 the trip that y o u ' v e be e n refefr,, rin` g t o were 2 1 you and Mr. Wheeler , o r w a s there a larger 2 2 group, as best you recall today? 2 3 MR. ZIMMER: Mischaracterizes his 2 4 testimony. ! 2 5 MR. TALLON: I'm not GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 111 STLCOPCB4026936 1 c h a racterizing, I ' m ask in g him a q u e s t i c n . 2 MR . ZIMMER: He's a 1 ready to 1 d 3 you , though, wh o went. and it w a s n ' t j u st he 4 and Mr. Wheeler 5 MR . TALLON: I under stand t h a t . 6 THE WITNESS : May he repeat the 7 que s tion? 8 MR . TALLON : I'll as k a n o t h e r 9 q u e stion, just so we're clear. 1 0 BY MR . TALLON : 1 1 0 . The memorand u m which is part o f 1 2 t h i s exhibit st a t e s t h a t , "Perh a p s you have 1 3 h e a rd that Bob Keller f r o m 0 r g a n i c R e s e arch 1 4 and I plan to v i s i t a n umber of people, " and 1 5 for the sake of clarity of the record, I was 1 6 wondering wheth e r that indicate d to you that 1 7 the persons mak in g this p a r t i c u 1 a r trip t o 1 8 you were only Elmer Wheeler and yourself or 1 9 whether it was also the other persons whose 20 names you had mentioned earli'er' in testimony ' 2 1 today . 2 2 MR. ZIMMER: Are you asking him to 2 3 interpret the memo, or just to tell you who i 2 4 actually went on the visit? That's what's i 2 5 unclear by the question. ! GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 112 STLCOPCB4026937 1 MR. TALLON : I'm just asking for 2 his recollection who was on the visit. 3 MR. ZIMMER: Okay. 4 A . Well , I think I t e s tified ear 1 i e r 5 as to who went on differen t 1 e g s of the trip, 6 to my b e s t r e c o llection, a n d I guess tha t 7 would not chang e . I can r e p e a t that, if that 8 will help 9 Q No , I remember the names that you 10 gave me. I'm j ust wonderi n g i f you are able 1 1 today to break down who wa s on what leg o f 1 2 the trip. b ased on your la st r e s p o n s e . 1 3 A . Well, would you 1 i k e for m e t o 1 4 repeat as I recall who was o n what leg of the 1 5 trip? 1 6 Q Yes. 1 7 A . Through this? i j | 1 8 Q That would be v e r y h e 1 p f u 1 . 1 9 A . Looking at the A r o c lor i n t h e 2 0 environment attachment t o this memo , t h e . 2 1 scheduled Monday, April 28, trip to Holden 2 2 was with -- by -- correction -- Keller and 2 3 Hardy out of the London office. 2 4 The Tuesday, April 29 visit to 2 5 Shell was by Wheeler and Keller. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 113 STLCOPCB4026938 X The Wednesday, April 30 2 Walker-Sentry Company, I have no recollection 3 of that, and I'm not sure that visit was even 4 made by anyone. 5 The Wednesday afternoon or 6 Thursday morning visit with Holmes and Tatton 7 was made by Wheeler and Keller. The 8 Wednesday afternoon visit with Sir, with Sir 9 Frederick Warner, I don't recall that 10 meeting . I'm not sure it was held. 1 1 Friday meeting with Dave Wood and 1 2 John Haggert, I do not recall. 1 3 The Monday meeting with Widmark 1 4 and Jensen was made with Widmark but not 1 5 Jensen by Wheeler and Keller. And the 1 6 meeting with Holmstedt, my best recollection, 1 7 that was Wheeler and Keller; as was Friday, 1 8 May 9, Professor Van Genderen, and the last 1 9 meeting, May 12, with Leverkusen, to my 2 0 knowledge, was not made. rr ' 2 1 Now, I should make one addition to 2 2 this. To the meeting with Widmark and 2 3 Jensen, Dr. Richard was along on that one, 2 4 and it's my best recollection that Hardy, out 2 5 of the London office, was also present at the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 114 STLCOPCB4026939 1 Shell Research meeting, and I believe that's 2 all. 3 Q. Dr. Keller, do you have a 4 recollection of being told by any person at 5 Monsanto in the late Sixties that theOrganic 6 Division had considerable research effort 7 underway to develop data to protectthe sales 8 and uses of Monsanto PCB's? 9 A. I have no recollection of that. 1 0 Q. Do you have a recollection of ever 1 1 having heard from Elmer Wheeler that 1 2 beginning in the mid summer of 1968, a 1 3 considerable research effort had been 1 4 underway in the Organic Division and in 1 5 consulting laboratories to develop data to 1 6 protect the sales and uses of Monsanto PCB's? 1 7 A . No ,. I don't recall that. 1 8 Q I f you look for a moment at 1 9 Exhibit 286, at the first sentence of the 2 0 third paragraph in the memor arn dum, it states, ! 2 1 "Beginning in mid summer of last year, a 2 2 considerable research effort has been 2 3 underway in the Organic Division and in 2 4 consulting laboratories to develop data to 2 5 protect the sales and uses of our PCB's." Do GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 115 STLCOPCB4026940 vou see that? 2 A . Yes. 3 Q. Does reviewing that passage in 4 this memorandum or any portion of this 5 memorandum enhance your recollection in any 6! fashion as to whether the Organic Division 7 had undertaken a considerable research effort 8 h to develop data to protect the sales and uses ii 9 !! il of Monsanto PCB's? 1 0 !l MR. ZIMMER: Lacks foundation, ; ' 1 1 i!\ 12 ; assumes facts not in evidence. If it changes your recollection, ' 1 3 h you can tell him. |i ! 1 4 j! MR. TALLON: I'm asking him if it ' 1 5 j! enhances his recollection in any respect. 1 6 ;j MR. ZIMMER: You read him the same < 1 7 ii rp 18 question twice and he told you it didn't, so -- does it enhance yourrecollection? 19 i( 20 21 THE WITNES S : BY MR. TALLON: No . _ ` Q. What was the goal of the work that . ; I 22 i 2 3 jj you were doing to gather data in 1967 and '68, as you best understood it? i 24 j ! A. To provide ascomplete apicture ! j i 2 5 as possible on the presence, fate, J | GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI .. . 116 STLCOPCB4026941 1 composition of PCB and PCB-type products in 2 the environment. 3 Q And what d o you r efer to when you 4 say that one o f the go a 1 s o r part of the goal 5 was to g a t h e r data o n the f a t e of PCB 6 products? 7 A . Yes, the fate. 8 Q Fate 9 A . Yes. 1 0 Q What do you mean by the u s e of the 1 1 fate " in that sentence? 1 2 A . This would relate to the stability 1 3 of PCB-type products in the environment, 1 4 under environmental conditions. 1 5 Q. Did you have any - understanding at 1 6 the time of the use to which the information 1 7 that you were to gather would be put? 1 8 A . No . 1 9 Q. Did you have an understanding then f^ ` 2 0 as to whether the data and information you 2 1 were gathering would be used for any business 2 2 purpose as it related to PCB products? 23 MR. ZIMMER: Calls for 2 4 speculation. 25 THE WITNESS: Can we play that GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026942 back? THE COURT REPORTER: 3 "Q. Did you have an understanding 4 then as to whether the data and information 5 youwere gathering would be used for any 6 business purpose as it related to PCB 7 products? 8 A. Well, the broad answer to that is 9 yes, because what we werein business for was 1 0 to develop data for support of products and 1 1 processes, of commercial products and 1 2 processes . 1 3 BY MR. TALLON: 1 4 Q. Did you have an understanding then 1 5 as to whether the information and data you 1 6 were developing would play any role in a 1 7 business decision with respect to the 1 8 continued sales of PCB's? 19 MR . ZIMMER: Same objection. I 'm 2 0 sorry, you can answer. 2 1 A . The answer is no. 2 2 BY MR. TALLON: 2 3 Q. What was your understanding -- 24 A. Let me just add a comment, here. ' 2 5 Just to reemphasize, our role as a support, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026943 service function to the business units, in 2 many times we would not be involved, J certainly, in decision making of what they 4 were doing. That was their decision. We 5 would get problems in, and in that context, 6 we, many times, really didn't know what they 7 were going to do with the information that we 8 were generating. It might be, could be 9 considerably letter. That's the reason I 1 0 have to answer -- 1 1 Q . Did y o u have any u n d e r standing at 1 2 all of the use t o which the d a t a and 1 3 information yo u r group d e v e 1 o p e d was 1 4 eventually put i n c o n n e c t i o n w i t h the 1 5 continued sale o f PCB pr o d u c t s ? 1 6 A . At th at point in t i m e , n o . 1 7 Q . Did y o u later a c q u i r e a n i 1 1 8 understanding o f the use to w h i c h the data 19 and informatio n you d e v e loped w a s put or had ' 2 0 been put? f^ i ! 2 1 A . Mu c h later . 2 2 Q. How much later? 2 3 A. Early Seventies. 2 4 Q. And in the early Seventies, what 2 5 did you learn about the use to which the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 11G STLCOPCB4026944 information you had developed had been put? 2 A . Well, I think it was used to make 3 certain business decisions and what to do 4 about manufacture of products, continuing 5 manufacture, labeling. 6 Q. What certain business decisions do 7 you have in mind when you give that answer, 8 Dr. Keller? 9 MR. ZIMMER: The question lacks 1 0 foundation, calls for speculation. 1 1 You can respond if you know. 1 2 A . I can't give you a d e f inite answer 1 3 on that . 1 4 BY MR. TALLON: ! 15 MR. TALLON: Can you read that 16 immediately prioranswer back, please? I > 17 just want to be sure I didn't mishear it. i 1 8 THECOURTREPORTER: : 19 "A. Well, I think it was used to ; . f^ ` ; 20 make certain business decisions and what to j- 2 1 do about manufacture of products, continuing 2 2 manufacture, labeling." 2 3 BY MR. TALLON: 24 Q. Do you have any understanding as j j 25 to how information or data you developed was | GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ion STLCOPCB4026945 1 X used in making business decisions with 2 respect to labeling? 3 A. That was just notmy bailiwick, my 4 responsibility, and I had nothing to do with 5 that. I have no recollection of them. 6 BY MR. TALLON: 7 Q. I appreciate that, although it 8 renders your answer somewhat inexplicable. 9 Do you believe that there is a linkage 1 0 between the information and data you 1 1 developed and labeling decisions that were 1 2 made by Monsanto? 1 3 A . Now? 1 4 Q . Yeah. 15 A. Well,I guess Iwould say I 1 6 believe there is, yes. 1 7 Q. And what linkage is that, Dr. 1 8 Keller? 19 MR. ZIMMER: Calls for f^ ` 2 0 speculation,again. ' , 2 1 A. Well, the linkage would be that 2 2 information regarding PCB's was needed by 2 3 business units to make the right business 2 4 decisions. 2 5 BY MR. TALLON: I ! f i GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026946 1 Q. I don't doubt that, Dr. Keller, 2 but I am trying to specifically focus on a 3 comment that you made that you thought that 4 the information and data you developed had an 5 impact on business decisions that went to 6 labeling, among other things, and in order to 7 give that answer, you must have had something 8 in mind. 9 MR. ZIMMER: He said he believed 1 0 that that occurred. 1 1 MR. TALLON: Shall we read the 1 2 answer back again? 1 3 MR. ZIMMER: Why don't we. 1 4 THE COURT REPORTER: 15 "A.Well, I thihk it was used to 1 6 make certain business decisions and what to 1 7 do about manufacture of products, continuing 1 8 manufacture, labeling." 1 9 BY MR. TALLON: 20 o. What is th e basis for your i i 2 1 thinking that the inf ormation and data you I 2 2 developed was used in connection with any 2 3 business decisions having to do with 2 4 labeling? i | j 25 A. I have no direct basis except to j GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI STLCOPCB4026947 know that the business unit would have used 2 that information to make the right decisions. j Q. To make -- excuse me -- what? 4 A. To make the right decisions. 5 Q. Are you thinking of any particular 6 decisions or any particular labeling? - 7 A . No . 8 Q. And when you answered that you 9 thought that the information and data you ' 1 0 developed was implicated in business : 1 1 decisions having to do with continuing j 1 2 manufacture, what was the basis of your 1 3 thought? 14 MR. ZIMMER: Once again, calls for j 15 speculation, lacks foundation, as has this i 1 6 whole line o questioning. | i 17 MR. TALLON: Counsel, if we want ! l i 18 to read the answer back again, I will,but I : 1 9 would appreciate your stop doing that, 20 because it suggests that you 'are coaching the , 2 1 witness to render it to speculation when he 2 2 testified that he thought there was a 2 3 relationship, and I'm entitled to probe that, i .I 2 4 asyouknow. j 25 MR. ZIMMER: Fine, and I'm not GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 123 STLCOPCB4026948 -1 JL coaching the witness, nor do rri y objections 2 which I'm entitled to make suggest that, so I "< would appreciate it if you could keep your 4 comments about my style of defending a 5 deposition to yourself. 6 MR. TALLON: Let's read the 7 answer . 8 MR. ZIMMER: An answer - 9 MR. TALLON: I'm sorry, I thought 1 0 you were finished. 1 1 MR. ZIMMER: An answer that says, 1 2 "I think that another department was doing 1 3 something or other" is, on its face, 14 speculative. That should be obvious. This 1 5 whole line is just, it's useless, because you 1 6 can ask the people involved what they did 17 with the information that Dr. Keller's 1 8 department generated. 1 9 MR. TALLON: Well, today, we have 20 Dr. Keller, and we're exploring his knowledge ' i 2 1 and recollection. 22 MR. ZIMMER: Okay, why don't you j 2 3 ask him another question. l 1 2 4 BY MR. TALLON: I ; t 25 Q. Do you have the question in mind, j j GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI j STLCOPCB4026949 1 or would it be helpful to hear i t again? 2 A. I'll make comment r e 1 a t i v e 3 the statement. 4 Q . Okay. 5 A. I made a poor choice of examples 6 in my answer. It was an example, and not a 7 fact. I had no involvement, to my knowledge, 8 with labeling, and I really don't know how 9 our results were used by any of the other 1 0 groups within Monsanto, and that was a poor 1 1 choice of examples. Now, if you think I'm, 1 2 I've got some information back here about, 13 hey, I know all about labeling, I don't. It 14 wasn't my area. I can't draw on anything 1 5 that would say, "Well, the Medical Department 1 6 took this information in from Keller, uh-huh, 1 7 now we got to do something relative to 18 labeling." I have absolutely no information 19 on that. I don't recall. 20 Q. -- excuse me. I dd dii't realize 2 1 you weren't finished. 2 2 When you testified that you 2 3 thought that some of the information and data 2 4 you used or developed was used in business 2 5 decisions relating to the continuing GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 5 STLCOPCB4026950 manufacture of the product, to what were you 2 referring? " 3 MR. ZIMMER: Same objections. 4 A. I was referring to the fact that 5 we support a commercial operation and we 6 aren't there just running instruments every 7 day, turning information that is of no value 8 The business units need this information to 9 make proper judgments. On that basis, I'm 1 0 reasonably confident in my own mind that PCB 11 information was so used. You asked me what 12 was it. I can't tell you. I don't know. 1 3 BY MR. TALLON: 1 4 Q. Do you know whether, in 1967, 1 5 there was a goal to attempt to continue the 1 6 sales of PCB products? 1 7 MR. ZIMMER: Lacks foundation. 1 8 A. I'm not aware of it. 1 9 BY MR. TALLON: 2 0 Q. Do you know whether there came a 2 1 time when it was determined that PCB-based 2 2 products would be discontinued for sale by 2 3 Monsanto? 2 4 A. I'm aware that there was 2 5 consideration of that. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI 12 6 | STLCOPCB4026951 Q . And you are aware that there car, e 2 a time when Monsanto did discontinue the sale 3 of PCB-based products, correct? 4 A. Yes, I am. 5 Q . Okay, and do you know at any time 6 before that decision was made whether there 7 was an effort to continue the sales and uses 8 of PCB ' s? 9 A. Not to my best recollection. 1 0 Q. Did you play any role in providing 1 1 information, so far as you know, that went 1 2 into the decision to discontinue the sale and 1 3 use of PCB-based products? 1 4 A. I -- I just can't recall that. i 5 Q. The itinerary which is attached as 1 6 part o f t h e e x h i b i t b e f ore you , Dr . Keller, I 1 7 b e 1 i e v e t h a t o n e of the t h i n g s that you 1 8 t e s t i f i e d t o w a s that y o u and Mr . H a r d y 1 9 visited with Mr. Holden? Is that correct? t 20 A. Right, mm-hmm. -d ` 2 1 Q . Was that visit in Scotland? 2 2 A . Yes. 2 3 Q. Did you, during the course of that 2 4 visit, exchange any documents in the terms of 2 5 Mr. Holden giving you any documents and you GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 127 STLCOPCB4026952 1 giving him any documents? 2 A. Not that I recall, except what 3 might have been penciled as a note or 4 something. 5 Q Did you, by the way. Dr. Keller, 6 take notes during the course of your trip? 7 A . Yes. 8 MR. TALLON: Let me show you a 9 document which we'll mark as the next exhibit 1 0 in order, a multipage document which begins 1 1 on Page TRAN 007217 and goes all the way 1 2 through TRAN 007290 and is titled "notes, 1 3 European trip, Aroclor." And we'll take a 1 4 moment to look at that and see if you can 1 5 identify it for us. . 16 (Plaintiff's Deposition , 17 Exhibit 287 marked for i 1 8 identification.) 1 9 (Witness peruses said 20 document.) v` ; 2 1 MR. ZIMMER: Did we get the TRAN 2 2 numbers thisencompasses? j 2 3 MR.TALLON: Mm-hmm. 2 4 MR. ZIMMER: Thank you. 2 5 BYMR. TALLON: GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | i i ! | j i i ! 12 8 STLCOPCB4026953 1 Q Those are not your notes, are 2 they? 3 A . I t looks like i t could be my 4 writing as o f that point i n time. The last 5 page is a little disconcerting. 6 Q. You are referring to the reference 7 on Page 7290 that says "R. Keller called"? 8 A . Yeah. : 9 Q. Are you able to discern by review 10 of these notes whether or not they are yours? 1 1 1 A. Yeah, it's my best opinion they 1 2 are mine. I have some, some of the writing 1 3 doesn't look like it's quite mine, but the 14 reason I qualify this, I believe it is mine | 1 5 in that, after looking at this a little . 1 6 closer, the front end of this does not relate ; 17 to the trip or the itinerary made on PCB's. ! i f 1 8 It relates to visits to plant laboratories, 1 9 plant facilities at Ruabon and Newport, so ' 2 0 this is in -- this is something 'totally 2 1 unrelated to what we're talking about over 2 2 here. 2 3 At the point where it starts on 2 4 7233, that, that does relate, and I believe 2 5 from that point on. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 12 9 STLCOPCB4026954 X1 Q. Do you recollect meetings which 2 correspond with the first pages of the notes 3 7218 through 7232? 4 A . What I can't construct, I can't in 5 m y mind recall, that I mad e the trip ahead - 6 w e 11, let's see. This was 4/24 . Was there 7 a n 8 over here? Okay, i t does p r e c e d e April 8 28. The part that I can't recall, if these 9 are my notes, then it means that I apparently 1 0 went over earlier and visited these other 1 1 site s on the front end of this, prior t o 1 2 pick i n g up with this agenda over here o n the 1 3 a r o c 1 o r s i n the environment with Wheel e r and 1 4 Rich a r d , s o that 's my best assessment o f what 1 5 this i s , what it represents. 1 6 Q Do you remember anything in 1 7 part i c u 1 a r about your discussions with M r 1 8 Holden, based on your review of these notes 1 9 or based o n your recollection, unaided by 2 0 reviewofthenotes? -y ' ; 2 1 A. Well, Holden was at the Department | I 2 2 of Agriculture, fisheries at Pitlochry, and 2 3 the visit there was primarily to review his 2 4 work on PCB's in aquatic species, where his 2 5 work was mostly with gas chromatography . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 0 STLCOPCB4026955 X That was done, and as I recall, he was guided 2 in large part by Widmark and his earlier 3 work, and felt by reviewing back -- I'm 4 talking about Holden now -- reviewing back 5 earlier chromatograms from wildlife species 6 of a few years earlier, then he decided that 7 the interferences he had been seeing and 8 couldn't explain could be PCB-type materials 9 as found by Holden and Jensen. That's the 1 0 nub of what I remember about what was said, 1 1 here. ; 1 2 Q. Do you recall, Dr. Keller, any 1 3 discussion with Mr. Holden as to whether DDT 1 4 degradation accounted forthe presence of - 1 5 PCB's when they, PCB's were found in the ; 1 6 presence of DDT? . 17 A. That was DDT degradation? i 1 8 Q. Yes. 1 9 A. Well, if it was discussed, I don't 2 0 remember it. v` j 2 1 Q. Perhaps you could look at Page 2 2 7233 and see if anything on that page 2 3 refreshes your recollection in thatrespect. I i 2 4 A. That's of my penciled notes, here? 2 5 Q. Yes, of the note, the notebook. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 1 STLCOPCB4026956 A . 72 -2 Q 3 3. 3 A. -- 33. All right, your question 4 again? 5 Q. Does review of that page refresh 6 your recollection in any respect as to 7 whether DDT degradation was a subject of 8 discussion among you, Mr. Hardy, and Mr. 9 Holden? 1 0 A. Only to the extent that sentence 1 1 addresses it. "Evidence for DDT degradation 1 2 does not explain all chlorinated 1 3 by-products," and at this point in time 25 1 4 years later, I cannot add to it. 1 5 Q. Are you able today, Dr. Keller, to 1 6 recollect any aspect of the discussion with 1 7 Drs. Robinson -- or. Dr. Robinson and Mr. 1 8 Richardson of Shell Research, Ltd., on 1 9 Tuesday, April 29th, 1969? 2 0 A. This was addressed toward work 2 1 they had been doing with pesticides, 2 2 Richardson and Shell, and the fact that they 2 3 had also found interferences in their 2 4 chromatograms, looking at pesticides, and 2 5 deciding that maybe they could now better GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 2 STLCOPCB4026957 1 explain those interferences based on W id it, ark 2 and Jensen's work. That was primarily what 3 was reviewed with them. 4 Q. Do you recall, either in 5 discussions with Mr. Holden or Dr. Robinson 6 and Mr. Richardson, whether particular 7 aroclors were discussed? 8 A . Well, my best recollection is 9 there was some discussion of why were higher 1 0 chlorinated biphenyl species found as 1 1 residues in aquatic species, fish, birds, and 1 2 asking the question what could be the source 1 3 of these, and relative back to Aroclor-type 1 4 products, not necessarily Aroclor but more 1 5 likely European PCB products in that area, so 1 6 that was in a discussion but I can't play 1 7 back anything beyond that except what I find 1 8 in my notes here which I can't even recall at 1 9 this point. 2 0 Q. Do you recall identifying with any 2 1 of the gentlemen with whom you met on your 2 2 European trip, possible sources for the 2 3 presence of PCB's in the environment? 2 4 A. Again, do I recall? 2 5 Q Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 3 STLCOPCB4026958 X A. Could you play that back again? Q . Oh, yes. Sorry. Do you recall, 3 in any of your discussions with the gentlemen 4 you visited with in Europe, discussions -- 5 A. Gentlemen being -- 6 Q. All the gentlemen whose names are 7 listed on the itinerary, yes. Do you recall 8 discussing with any of those gentlemen 9 possible sources for the presence of PCB's in 1 0 the environment? 1 1 A. Yes. 1 2 Q. What do you recall? 1 3 A. One I believe I've mentioned 1 4 already was with Widmark, where he was 1 5 suggesting maybe it could come, PCB-type 1 6 materials could come from paint on ships, 1 7 again addressing why were the residues being 1 8 found in wildlife species, aquatic wildlife 1 9 species. That's the only thing that comes 2 0 back to me immediately as to soilrce . 2 1 Questions were being asked by everybody but 2 2 nobody had a good explanation. 2 3 Q. Do you have any recollection, Dr. 2 4 Keller, of having discussed with any of the 2 5 gentlemen you met, whether the presence of GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 4 STLCOPCB4026959 1 PCB's in the environment was explainable by 2 the use of PCB-based lubricants in any of the 3 jurisdictions or locales you visited? 4 A. I have no recollection of that. 5 Q. Would you -- I've lost my page 6 now -- flip to Pages 7239 and 7240? And at 7 the bottom of 7239 and the top of 7240, tell 8 me if any portion of your review of those 9 pages r e f r eshes your r e c o llection as to 1 0 whether or not there was any discussion that 1 1 you recall with respect to PCB-based : 1 2 lubricants? 1 3 A. I can't add anything beyond what 1 4 appears on these two pages. I'm trying to 1 5 determine in my own mind who was being talked 16 with on my part at the time these notes were j I 17 taken, and I'm not sure, certain about that. i 18 There's a reference to the -- this journal. i 1 9 MR. ZIMMER: Well, let's wait till i 20 he asks you a question. He's^not asking you _ 2 1 to interpret the note right now. He's 2 2 entitled to do that if he wants, but he's 2 3 asking if what you read at the bottom of one 2 4 page, top of the next refreshes your 2 5 recollection. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 5 STLCOPCB4026960 X A . The answer is no. BY MR. TALLON: 3 Q. Is there a notation or reference 4 within a reasonable number of pages from 7239 5 or 7240 which indicates to you the discussion 6 to which these notesrelated? 7 MR. ZIMMER: I'll have to object. 8 That calls for speculation because he's 9 already said he doesn't remember the 1 0 discussions . 1 1 (Witness peruses document.) 1 2 A . No . No . 1 3 BY MR. TALLON: 1 4 Q Would you turn, please. Dr 1 5 Keller, to page TRAN 007272 ? 1 6 A . 0072 -- 1 7 Q 7 2? 18 1 9 Q Does a n y t h i ng on that page. Dr. 2 0 Keller, refresh your r ecollec%ion as to 2 1 discussions that you h ad during your visit to j 22 Europe as those discus sions related to the : | 2 3 source of PCB's found in the environment? i 2 4 A . No . 2 5 Q Doctor, do youhaveany i i ; GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 36 STLCOPCB4026961 1X understanding as to the reason or purpose for 2 which you believe you may have recorded these 3 notes? 4 A. Primarily to come back with the 5 best recording of our findings that we can 6 have. 7 Q. Did you take them while you were 8 in Europe? . 9 A. Take them? 10 Q. Did you jot down these notes while 1 1 you were actually, physically in Europe? 1 2 A . Yes . 13 Q. Doctor, do you recollect the 1 4 length of the period during which you met 1 5 with Professor Widmark while onyour 1969 1 6 journey to Europe? , 1 7 A . 0ne day . i 1 8 Q. And do you know if others on 1 9 behalf of Monsanto met with Professor Widmark 2 0 on that occasion for more that One day? 2 1 A. Not to my knowledge. : (r 2 2 Q. And to the best of your 23 recollection, what was discussed between you j | 24 and Dr. Widmark or Professor Widmark on that ; ii 2 5 occasion? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 7 STLCOPCB4026962 1 A . t involved review of his GC/mass 2 equipment, skills, and just what he might 3 have, plans for the future, if anything, plus 4 anything he could tell us about PCB findings 5 beyond what he had published. 6 Q. Did he tell you anything about PCB 7 findings beyond what he had published? 8 A. There was a playback, essentially, 9 of what he had published. 1 0 Q. Did Professor Widmark give you any 1 1 indication of what he intended to do in 1 2 future with respect to similar work or 1 3 similarsubjects? 14 A. .That was up in the air, we found , 1 5 out, because Dr. Jensen we did not meet with 16 out of town, and I think they were trying to |I| 1 7 decide how they were going to continue on ; 1 8 their programs. 1 9 Q. Did Professor Widmark give you 2 0 information on that occasion tvh at you did \ 2 1 find helpful for running your own GC/mass i ! 2 2 system? 2 3 A. We, we felt that was a very 2 4 helpful visit with Professor Widmark and he 2 5 provided insight as to methodology which we GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 8 STLCOPCB4026963 brought back. don't recall at this point 2 whether these were anything in writing, 3 orally, or what could be gleaned out of 4 notes, but he was helpful. There was no 5 question about that. 6 Q. Do you recollect any particular 7 information furnished to you by Professor 8 Widmark which you found helpful? 9 A. Now, what was the first part of 1 0 that, again, please? 11 Q. Yes. Do you recall any particular 1 2 information -- 1 3 A. Particular information. The -- I 14 can't give you detail on this, but it would , 1 5 relate to how to extract, separate, extract, 1 6 concentrate PCB-type material s_ from tissue of ; i 1 7 wildlife. : 1 8 Q. Anything else? 1 9 A . No . 20 Q. When you returned,'. Dr. Keller, did ; 2 1 you make any written reports covering the 2 2 subjects of your trip to Europe? 23 A. Yes, but I can't recall it. I j I fl 24 don't know if it was a -- it was something | 2 5 reduced to writing. Whether it was a J GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 13 9 STLCOPCB4026964 1 distribution, I just don't know at this 2 point . 3 MR. TALLON: Let me show you. Dr. 4 Keller, a multipage document which bears 5 production numbers TRAN 022096 through TRAN 6 022106. 7 (Plaintiff ' s Deposition 8 Exhibit 288 marked for 9 identification.) 1 0 BY MR. TALLON: 1 1 Q. Would you take a moment to review ; 1 2 Exhibit Number 288? 1 3 (Witness peruses said 1 4 document . ) 15 MR. ZIMMER: You want him to read . 1 6 the whole thing, or just skim it? 17 MR. TALLON: I want him to review ' 1 8 it. If you feel more comfortable reading the 1 9 entire document, please do so. I intend to I 2 0 ask you whether you can identify the document !_ 2 1 for the record. 22 (Witness peruses said j I i 2 3 document.) j 24 A . Yes . 1 ! 2 5 BY MR. TALLON: GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 0 STLCOPCB4026965 I 5 Can you d e n t i f y the documen t ? 2 A . Yes 3 Q - Pie a s e , d o s o . 4 A . It* s a doc ument I generated, 5 Q . And w h a t i s reflected in that 6 document, Dr. Kell e r ? What is reflected in 7 the document? 8 A . Wh a t is r e fleeted is information 9 obtained and e x c h a n g e d through our visits ou t 1 0 of the Europea n t r i p . 1 1 Q . Do you r e c ollect having dictated 1 2 the notes appe a r i n g i n this exhibit, Dr. 1 3 Keller? 1 4 A. I haven't read this document word 1 5 for word at this point, but with that 1 6 qualification, I would say yes, this is what 1 7 I dictated. 1 8 Q. And do you recollect the reason 1 9 for which you sought to record the 2 0 information appearing in the document? 2 1 A. So I'd have the best information 2 2 available that we obtained; as complete a 2 3 record as possible. 2 4 Q. Do you recollect approximately 2 5 when you dictated the material appearing in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 1 STLCOPCB4026966 X this ex h i b i t ? 2 A . Well, the document i s date d 3 6-12-69 . I have no other -- I can't r e c all 4 that. That could be the date, it c o u 1 d b e 5 d i f f e r e n t , and t h at's all I can add. 6 Q . Do you recollect eve r h a v i ng used 7 the inf ormation r eflected in th is e x h ibit to 8 create any other document or do c u m e n t s ? 9 A . No . 1 0 Q . Do you have any reco 1 1 e c t i o n o f 1 1 having asked Prof essor Widmark for hi s 1 2 r e c o m m e ndation of what he would do if h e were 1 3 a m a n u f acturer of PCB's? 1 4 MR. ZIMMER: What^we would d o 1 5 about w hat? 1 6 MR . TALLON : What he would d o i f 1 7 he were -- okay, -- 1 8 BY MR . TALLON: 1 9 Q . Do you have any reco 1 1 e c t i o n o f 2 0 asking Professor Widmark whatthfi would do if 2 1 he were in a manufacturer's position 2 2 involving PCB's? 2 3 A. I guess there would be no basis 2 4 for my asking that question. 2 5 Q. Does looking at Page TRAN 022105 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 2 STLCOPCB4026967 a. refresh your recollection in any respect as 2 to whether or not you asked that question of 3 Professo r Widmark? I t '1 s page 10. I f you 4 look a t the numbers a t the top of the page 5 here,, i t 'll be page 1 0 , 6 A. All right, I don't recall that. 7 It reads, "When asked what he would do." 8 There were several there. I don't know who 9 asked this. 1 0 Q Do you remember the question being 1 1 asked o f Professor Widmark, notwithstanding 1 2 the s o u r c e of the question? 1 3 A . At this point in time I do not 1 4 remember. 1 5 Q Do you have a r e collection of 1 6 Professor Widmark having s a id at any point 17 during your meeting with h i m that he would 1 8 restrict P CB ' s to closed sy stems? 1 9 A . Yes, I remember his answers to 2 0 this. That part I remember his 'answers. 21 Q By " that part," are you 2 2 A . I ' m talking about item 1, 2 and 3 23 . Q And can you tell me what you 2 4 recollect about Professor Widmark's comments 2 5 in that re g a r d ? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 3 STLCOPCB4026968 1 A . Joining he said anything I 2 can't recollect anything beyond what's, 3 what's down here, one, two, three. 4 Q . In other words, you don't 5 recollect today whether he elaborated on any 6 of the points made? 7 A. Not to my knowledge. 8 Q. Do you recollect that following 9 the meeting with Professor Widmark, you 1 0 discussed with any other employee or 1 1 representative of Monsanto whether PCB's 1 2 should be restricted to closed systems? 1 3 THE WITNESS: Can you read that 1 4 back ? 1 5 THE COURT REPORTER: 16 "Q. Doyou recollect that ; 1 7 following the meeting with Professor Widmark, 1 8 you discussed with any other employee or 1 9 representative of Monsanto whether PCB's 2 0 should be restricted to closed, systems?" 21 A. No, I did not, to my best 2 2 recollection. 2 3 BY MR. TALLON: 2 4 Q. Are you familiar with the term j I I i : 2 5 "closed system"? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS,MISSOURI j I i j 14 4 STLCOPCB4026969 A . I guess I'll say yes, but I guess 2 I'm not very knowledgeable. 3 Q . Well, I don't want to use a term 4 that you don't understand so I will ask you 5 what you mean when you use the term "closed 6 system. " 7 A. Well, I presume it means it's a 8 system where a substance, environmentally 9 speaking, would not escape into the 1 0 environment. 1 1 0 Did you ever do any work desi g n e d 1 2 to determin e whether systems were open 1 3 systems ver sus closed systems? 1 4 A . No, not that I could recall. 1 5 Q Do you recall ever being pres e n t 1 6 d u r i n g a d i scussion where restricting th e use 17 o f PCB's t o closed systems was a subject o f 1 8 the discuss ion? 1 9 A . No . I 2 0 Q Do you recollect e %et having been 2 1 part of a d iscussion where a subject of the 2 2 discussion was the desire to find a 2 3 substitute for PCB's? 2 4 A . I can'trecollect any such 2 5 discussion. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 5 STLCOPCB4026970 1 -i, G - Did D r . R icha r d e v e r c o m m e n t to 2 you that he t h ought that M o n s a n t o s h o u 1 d 3 d i s continue s a 1 e s o f PCB ' s ? 4 A . I h a v e n o r e c o 11 e c t i o n o f that, 5 hmm-mm . 6 Q. Do you recollect ever having 7 attended a meeting where Dr. Richard 8 discussed the advisability of continuing to 9 sell PCB's? 1 0 A . No . 1 1 Q Do you recall ever h a v i n g heard 1 2 from any source that Dr. Richard had stated 1 3 that Monsanto should withdraw from the sale 1 4 of PCB ' s ? 1 5 A . No. 1 6 MR . ZIMMER: When you use PCB's 1 7 here. Counsel, you mean all PCB's? 1 8 MR . TALLON: Right . 1 9 BY MR . TALLON: 2 0 Q . Let me show you n o*w ,`Dr. Keller 2 1 document bearing production numbers TRAN j I 22 005818 through 5827, and I'm going to -- the ! ii 2 3 question I will be asking you, at least j 2 4 initially, is whether you've ever seen the : 2 5 document before, so please undertake such j GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 6 j l STLCOPCB4026971 X review as would be necessary to enable you to 2 answer that question. 3 (Plaintiff's Deposition 4 Exhibit 289 marked for 5 identification.) 6 (Witness peruses said 7 document . ) 8 BY MR. TALLON: 9 Q. Can you identify the exhibit. Dr. 1 0 Keller? 1 1 A . I don' t recall se ein g it. 1 2 Q Would it, thereto re, follow that 1 3 you don't recall whether you participated in 1 4 d r a f t i n g any portion of this document? 1 5 (Witness peruses said 1 6 document.) 17 A. I had no involvement with the 1 8 drafting of this document. 1 9 Q. Dr. Keller, do you have any 2 0 recollection as to whether or/.not the work of 2 1 Jensen and Widmark related in part to bird 2 2 feathers, presence of PCB's in bird feathers? 2 3 A. Bird feathers; no. 2 4 g. Do you have any recollection 2 5 whether Jensen and Widmark found PCB's in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 7 STLCOPCB4026972 1 museum specimens of seabirds? 2 A . I don't recall. I have no 3 recollec tion of that. 4 Q Would you just take a moment and 5 look at Page 2 of the exhibit before you, 6 289? It 's the page numbered - 2-. That page 7 that you have before you now. In the 8 second-t o-last paragraph appearing on that 9 page, t h e document states, "Examination of 1 0 feathers from museum specimens of seabirds 1 1 suggeste d that contamination commenced in 1 2 1944." Do you see that? 1 3 A . Yes. 1 4 Q Does review of that sentence 1 5 refresh your recollection in any fashion as 1 6 to your knowledge of whether or not Jensen I 1 7 and Widm ark's study concerned examinati on of 1 8 museum s pecimens of seabirds? 1 9 A . I cannot recall any comment being 2 0 made in my presence of that t y.p e . 2 1 0 - Okay. 22 MR. TALLON: Okay, why don't we ! 2 3 take a two-minute break. i i 2 4 (Recess) i ! 2 5 BY MR. TALLON: ! GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 8 STLCOPCB4026973 Keller other than the meeting 2 with Professor Widmarkthat you described in 3 your testimony of a few moments ago, did you 4 ever meet with Professor Widmark again? 5 A . Yes. 6 Q. Did you meet with him again on one 7 occasion or more than one occasion? 8 A. I only recall one, one occasion. 9 Q. And when did that take place? 1 0 A . That would have been in 1970, when 1 1 we made a return trip to Europe. 12 MR. ZIMMER: I'm sorry to 1 3 interrupt but are we i ncluding the visit that 1 4 Professor Widmark made to Monsanto? I j u s t 1 5 didn't know whether that was prefaced in your 1 6 question or not. , 1 7 BY MR. TALLON: ; 1 8 Q. Other than the meeting that you 1 9 described with Dr. Widmark or Professor f 20 Widmark in your office and t h/f meeting that j 2 1 you described with him in Europe, do you [ 2 2 recollect having had any other meeting? 2 3 A. One more; the 1970 follow-up, 2 4 Europeantrip. i ! 2 5 Q. To your knowledge, did other GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 14 9 STLCOPCB4026974 representatives of Monsanto and by 2 "other," I mean other than yourself -- meet 3 with Professor Widma r k on any other occasion 4 than the three that you have now identified 5 for u s ? 6 A . Not to my knowledge. 7 Q , When you met with Professo 8 Widmark in 1970 , w h e t h e r you accompan 9 anyone else working for Monsanto or 1 0 representing Monsanto? 1 1 A . Yes. 1 2 Q. By whom? 1 3 A. Elmer Wheeler. 1 4 Q. Was anyone else representing 1 5 Monsanto or present at the meeting to which 1 6 you have referred? 1 7 A . Bill Papageorge was on that t r i p . 1 8 I can ' t recall whether h e visited with, a Iso 1 9 with u s , with Widmark, o r not. I'' m not c 1 e a r 2 0 on that point. I just don't Recall that. ` 2 1 Q. Was the 1970 trip to Europe for 2 2 the purpose of holding a J numb e r of meetings ! 23 of which the meeting with Professor Widmark I 2 4 was one? ! 2 5 A. Correct. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 0 STLCOPCB4026975 1 Q. In addition to Mr. Wheeler and Mr. 2 Papageorge, were other representatives of 3 Monsanto present at any of the meetings, 4 other meetings which took place during that 5 trip? 6 A. Not that I recall. 7 Q. Do you recall the month or months 8 in which the 1970 trip to Europe took place? 9 A. To my best recollection, it was 1 0 May. 1 1 Q. When for the first time do you 1 2 recollect being informed that or asked to go 1 3 on a trip to Europe for the purpose of 1 4 meeting with Professor Widmark or others? 1 5 A. For the second trip? 1 6 Q. For the second time. 17 A. I have no recollection of when ; 1 8 thatevolved. 1 9 Q. Do you have a present 20 understanding as to the reas orp why you went 1 2 1 onthattrip? 2 2 A . Yes . | | j 23 Q. What is that understanding? ! 2 4 A. To provide knowledge and expertise 2 5 relative to ana 1ytica 1-type problems, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1 51 STLCOPCB4026976 1 questions, concerns. 2 Q. Were the analytical problems, 3 questions and concerns which you were 4 available to resolve, problems, questions and 5 concerns in relationship to PCB's? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Were you invited to attend or 8 directed to attend? 9 MR. ZIMMER: Or none of the above? 10 A. I would say I'll answer it this ; 1 1 way: It evolved, in my mind, the same way : 1 2 the first one did, through the Medical 1 3 Department and the Business Group, by their 1 4 taking lead role on deciding this should be 1 5 done. 1 6 Q. Was it fair to say, then, that you 17 were informed that your presence was desired? 1 8 A. A fair statement. : 1 9 Q. And with whom in the Medical 2 0 Department did you communicate about the 2 1 trip? | | 2 2 A. Elmer Wheeler. 2 3 Q. Anyoneelse? ! I 2 4 A. Dr. Kelly . I 2 5 Q. Anyone else? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 2 STLCOPCB4026977 xi A . Not that I recall. 2 Q. And with whom representing the 3 Business Group did you communicate about the 4 trip before you actually made it? 5 A. Dr. Richard. That's all. 6 Q. Did you communicate about the trip 7 before actually making it with Mr. 8 Papageorge? 9 A. Not that I can recall. 1 0 Q. Do know what Mr. Papageorge's 1 1 title was at the time that he made the trip 1 2 with you, or made legs of the trip with you? 1 3 A. My best recollection is that he 1 4 would have been, in 1970, he would have been 1 5 the product acceptability manager. 1 6 Q. Do you know if Mr. Papageorge at 1 7 that time had any particular responsibility 1 8 related to PCB ' s ? 1 9 A. Yes. 2 0 Q. Do you know that h^ did have such 2 1 responsibility? 2 2 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. And what is your understanding of 2 4 the responsibility that he had? 2 5 A. To work closely with the Business GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 153 STLCOPCB4026978 1 Group , Research and Development Department 2 Medical Department, with outside interested 3 parties on assuring the the qual i t y , the 4 acceptability of products. 5 BY MR. TALLON: 6 Q. What was your understanding. Dr. 7 Keller, the purpose for the 1970 trip to 8 Europe, or purposes, if there was more than 9 one? 1 0 A. Well, the purpose or purposes was 1 1 to develop a current, clear picture of what 1 2 had been further developed and accomplished 1 3 in Europe on PCB -- on the PCB question. It 1 4 was to be directed toward analytical, with 1 5 some emphasis with trying to discuss and work 1 6 with if that was, would be appropriate, other . 1 7 manufacturers of PCB-type products. : 1 8 Q. When you used the term to gain a 1 9 current clear picture of what had been 2 0 further developed, had something been further ; 21 developed in Europe withrelationship to 2 2 PCB 1 s? 2 3 A. Nothing that we had in mind ` ! j i 1 2 4 specifically. It was just to see what : 2 5 further information was available. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS,MISSOURI 15 4 : tI i | i I | STLCOPCB4026979 1 Q. Was there a particular catalyst or 2 a series of catalysts, as you recall it, for 3 taking this trip? 4 A . To justify it, you mean? 5 Q . Right. 6 A. No, there was nothing -- the 7 catalyst was the Medical Department. 8 Q. In what respect. Dr. Keller? 9 A. Well, they were taking, certainly, 1 0 a lead role and wanting to get to the 1 1 forefront on what is this situation with 1 2 PCB's in the environment, and it comes back 1 3 again, as I've stated, to Mr. Wheeler. 1 4 Q. Was there any new1y-pub1ished 1 5 information or series of new publications, 1 6 which factored into the decision to take this 1 7 trip, so far as you know? 1 8 A. Not that I recall in this point in 1 9 time. I don't remember when publications 20 suddenly started to come.I .-can't refer you 2 1 back to anything specific. I don't remember 2 2 anything . 2 3 Q. Was there any building concern or 2 4 sense of urgency which contributed to the 2 5 decision to take this trip, so far as you GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MIS SOURI 15 5 STLCOPCB4026980 know i 2 A . No. 3 Q. Were you ever a participant in 4 discussing the plans for the trip before it 5 actually took place? 6 A. On this trip, I had little input 7 on where the trip would go. They knew our 8 interests would be Widmark, other stops were 9 primarily out of Papageorge, Wheeler, 1 0 possibly the R & D Business Group. 1 1 Q. Do you recollect the approximate 1 2 length of time that you were in Europe on 1 3 this 1970 trip? 1 4 A. Onbusiness. 1 5 Q. Okay, on business. 1 6 A. My best recollection is 1 7 approximately ten days, two weeks. 1 8 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Wheeler, 1 9 Mr. Papageorge or others made stops during 2 0 the trip where you did not ac c^o mpany them? 2 1 A. No. I don't recall any. 2 2 Q. Do you recollect the approximate 2 3 length of your 1970 visit with Professor 2 4 Widmark? 2 5 A. Approximately one day. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 6 STLCOPCB4026981 -! J. Q . And was anyone ether than n Professor Widmark present not representing --ii Monsanto? 4 A . No . 5 Q For exampl , Jensen? 6 A . He was not there . 7 Q Have you e er met Jensen? 8 n . Never met e n s e n . 9 Q And I may ave cut off your last 1 0 answer . Was Professo Widmark accompanied by 1 1 anyone? 12 A . No . 1 3 Q To the best of your rec ollection. 1 4 where did that meeting take place? 1 5 A . In Professor Widmark's office and 1 6 laboratories . 1 7 Q And to the best you recall today, 1 8 what was discussed during the course of that 1 9 meeting? 2 0 A . The PCB situation ,a g a i n was 2 1 addressed . There was less to come to us from I i 2 2 Widmark regarding techniques, equipment, j I 23 methods, and actually, Widmark had reached j 2 4 the point where he apparently was dropping 2 5 his involvement with PCB work and heading GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 157 STLCOPCB4026982 1X into other things. 2 Q. Was there anything that you had 3 hoped to accomplish in the course of that 4 meeting with Professor Widmark? 5 A. Nothing except to have the benefit 6 of what he knew, what he could help us, no 7 other objective that I recall. 8 Q Do you r e c o 1 1 e c t today that he 9 p r o v i d e d you with any information which at 1 0 the t i m e he found u s e f ul ? 1 1 A . No , Id o n ' t 1 2 Q Do you r e c o 1 1 e c t having shared any 1 3 information with Professor Widmark about 1 4 studies or analyses that had been completed 1 5 by Monsanto by that time? 1 6 A. I can't remember if there was any 17 exchange of results we might have had on PCB : 1 8 findings with him or not. When we found that 1 9 he was at the point where he really wasn't 20 that actively involved with it,, it changed a ' 2 1 picture a little bit. So I just don't recall | 2 2 anything. i 2 3 Q. Had you been aware that change of j 24 direction on Professor Widmark's part before j I 2 5 you arrived in stock home? ; | GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI | 15 8 STLCOPCB4026983 1 N o I was not was not aware 2 0f it . . 3 Q. Do you mean to suggest by your 4 answer that Mr. Wheeler was? 5 A . Pardon? 6 Q. Do you mean to suggest by that 7 answer that Mr. Wheeler was or that someone 8 else was? 9 A. No. To my knowledge, no one was 1 0 aware of this. 1 1 Q. Do you know who arranged for the 1 2 meeting with Professor Widmark in May of 13 1970? 1 4 A. That would have been Mr. Wheeler. 1 5 Q. Was there any discussion at the 1 6 meeting with Professor Widmark whether or not 1 7 Monsanto would continue to sell PCB-based 1 8 products? 1 9 A. Well, I -- that may have been 2 0 discussed but I can't recall 41 f o r you and 2 1 someone like Bill Papageorge would have to 2 2 answer that because that's out of my 2 3 responsibility. 2 4 Q. Do you recollect anything else 2 5 about the meeting with Professor Widmark GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 15 9 STLCOPCB4026984 -T other than what you' v e jus t to Id me 7 2 A . No . 3 Q Did you t a k e no t e s of t h e meeting? 4 A . I'm sure I did, but I c a n ' t 5 picture what they we r e . 6 Q Did you a t t e n d o t h e r m e e tings 7 while on that 1970 t rip to E u r ope? 8 A . Yes, t h e r e were s e v e r a 1 other 9 stops. 1 0 Q And which stops d o you r emember 1 1 today? 1 2 A . Well, the re w e r e v i sits to a 1 3 Beyer, manufacturer of P C B - t y p e pro ducts, for 1 4 one -- 1 5 Q You are r e f e r r i n g t o Bey e r the 1 6 company , B-e-y-e-r? 1 7 A . Mm-hmm , r i g h t . 1 8 Q Any other visit s that you recall 1 9 today? 2 0 A . Prodelec, France. '- ` : 21 Those are the main ones that come j 2 2 immediatelytomind. ! i 23 Q. Tell me if you would. Dr. Keller, ; 2 4 what you recollect with respect to the 2 5 meeting with Beyer or about Beyer. :jII GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ; 16 0 STLCOPCB4026985 -X1 A B U Y - e r , BAY- er . My best 2 recollection is they're a very capable 3 technical company, well equipped in their 4 analytical and support-type services, without 5 any great effort going on the P C B problem, 6 compared to what w e were doing at Monsanto 7 They didn't seem t o be as generally 8 interested or, perhaps, concerned as we 9 thought we were and wanted to be. I would 1 0 estimate they were perhaps maybe a year 1 1 behind us in skill to be able to do some of 1 2 the things that we were doing . That i s just 1 3 m y overall impression . That ' s about all I 1 4 cameawaywith. 1 5 Q. Did Mr. Wheeler and Mr. Papageorge 1 6 also attend a meeting with Beyer? ; 17 A . Yes . i I 1 8 Q. Where did that take place, the 1 9 meeting? 20 A. It took place at tfteir office and ; I 21 plant location outside of Frankfurt, Germany. | I j 2 2 Q. From Monsanto's point of view, or 2 3 rather, excuse me, do you have an 2 4 understanding of what the purpose of that i 2 5 meeting was, from Monsanto's point of view? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI . 161 STLCOPCB4026986 1 A . It was pa r t o f the same pict u r e , 2 to find out everythi ng w e could about w hat 3 others who were invo 1 v e d with this type 4 product were doing, and try to get all the 5 informa tion we could W e were willing t o 6 provide them with in for m a tion, too. 7 Q . Did you? 8 A . So it was n ' t s trictly, we we r e n ' t 9 going a s a one-way s t r e e t , but that was the 1 0 mission . 1 1 Q. Did representatives of Beyer 1 2 furnish any information to you or Mr. 1 3 Papageorge or Mr. Wheeler which you recollect 1 4 today? 1 5 A. Very little. I felt we came away 1 6 with not too much. 17 Q. Do you recollect whether any of 1 8 the representatives of Beyer discussed with 1 9 you or the other two representatives of 2 0 Monsanto whether they had fo u'n d ` lower 2 1 chlorinated biphenyls present in the 2 2 environment? 2 3 A. I have no recollection of that. 2 4 Q. Do you have any recollection if, 2 5 in your 1970 meeting with Professor Widmark, GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 162 STLCOPCB4026987 1 he discussed with you the presence of lower 2 chlorinated biphenyls in the environment? 3 MR. ZIMMER: Assumes facts not in 4 evidence. 5 A. You are talking about during the 6 visit on the 1970 trip, here? 7 BY MR. TALLON: 8 Q . Right. 9 A. No, I don't remember that. : 1 0 Q. Do you remember providing 1 1 information to representatives of Beyer? 1 2 A. Yes, and in general, what type of 1 3 information do you recollect having furnished 1 4 to them? 1 5 A. Well, information, certainly, 1 6 about skills, information that wouldn't be ; 1 7 proprietary that we felt we could exchange or ! ( 1 8 provide, so in this area of skills, and I'm 1 9 talking analytical skills, that type of : 2 0 information, we gave them a fairly clear ! i 2 1 picture of how we were progressing and what 2 2 we were attempting to do. Now, I should 2 3 preface this, and I can't expand any further 2 4 than that, because it's that fuzzy in my 2 5 mind. At some point, I think there was a GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 3 STLCOPCB4026988 little bit of a splitting off between j 2 Papageorge, Wheeler and myself, based on what each of us could best cover with them. 4 Papageorge maybe like processing, Wheeler 5 like maybe the toxicology-medical, so it 6 wasn't always -- and I can't reconstruct 7 it, -- all three of us sitting in on every 8 discussion at the same time. Mostly, but not 9 always. 1 0 Q. Do you recollect anything, Dr. 1 1 Keller, about the meeting with 1 2 representatives of Prodelec? 1 3 A. Yes. 1 4 Q. And what is it that you recall? 1 5 A. Well, they were even further 1 6 behind, in my opinion and, I believe, our 1 7 opinion as a group -- on the trip on concerns 1 8 and actions directed toward the PCB 1 9 situation. They had not done anything that I 2 0 can recall. at least. at thisopbint in time, 2 1 directed toward methodology which would put 2 2 them in a position to determine PCB's. That 2 3 was not a very fruitful visit, in the main. 2 4 It did -- we did come back with the idea that 2 5 Monsanto was doing a lot more than most of GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 4 STLCOPCB4026989 -1 _L the other manufacturers of the product. 2 Q. A lot more in terms of what? 3 A. Of exploring and trying to get 4 information and getin a position to get more 5 information about PCB materials in the 6 environment and knowledge in general. 7 Q. Did you believe, then, that 8 Monsanto was doing a lot more than the 9 representatives of the companies with whom 1 0 you had met, in terms of anything other than 1 1 getting the kind of information you just 1 2 described? 1 3 MR. ZIMMER: Could we have that 1 4 read back? 1 5 THE COURT REPORTER: 1 6 "Q. Did you believe, then, that 1 7 Monsanto was doing a lot more than the 1 8 representatives of the companies wi t h whom 1 9 you had met. i n terms of anything o ther than 2 0 getting the kind of informat i^o n. you just I 2 1 described? " 2 2 A . No. 2 3 BY MR. TALLON: 24 Q. Dr. Keller, are you familiar with ! 2 5 a Dr. Risebrough of the University of GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 5 STLCOPCB4026990 1 California? Coi A . Yes. 3 Q. And can you state the basis for 4 that familiarity? 5 A. Dr. Risebrough, at this period of 6 time that we're talking about, was active on 7 looking at certain aquatic species on the 8 West Coast for PCB-type materials, as well as 9 pesticides. He carried out enough work that 1 0 he was interested in publishing this, and 1 1 it's my best recollection there was some 1 2 contact made with Monsanto on his part 1 3 regarding this publication, potential 1 4 publication, I guess, on the PCB materials 1 5 that he was working with. 1 6 Q. And how, personally, did you 1 7 become familiar with Mr. Risebrough or his 1 8 work? 1 9 A. Very remote, except I had a 2 0 one-time contact with Dr. Ri s-'e brough and that 2 1 was when Elmer Wheeler and myself went out 2 2 and visited him at hislocation for purpose 2 3 of a general discussion of PCB findings on 24 his part. And I'm not clear in my own mind 2 5 when his publication, when that part of it in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 6 STLCOPCB4026991 1 this time frame occurred. 2 MR. TALLON: Let me show you a 3 document, Dr. Keller, which we'll mark as the 4 next exhibit in order. It's a one-page 5 document titled "Public Relations Department" 6 and bearing production number TRAN 058656. 7 (Plaintiff's Deposition 8 Exhibit 290 marked for 9 identification. ) 1 0 BY MR. TALLON: 1 1 Q. Take a moment, please, and review 1 2 that. 1 3 (Witness peruses said 1 4 document.) 1 5 BY MR. TALLON: 1 6 Q Doctor, does a review of that 1 7 exhibit refresh your re collection in any 1 8 respect as to the timing of any publication 1 9 of any work by Dr. Risebrough? 2 0 A. Well, it says here/, it appeared in . 1 2 1 "Nature," a UK publication, but I don't think j 2 2 this says when, does it? 2 3 MR. ZIMMER: No, and he's not i j i j 24 asking you to read the document, he's asking j 25 if it refreshes your recollection as to when j GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 167 STLCOPCB4026992 X it appeared. 2 A . No, it does not. 3 BY MR . TALLON : 4 Q. Doctor, while you have that 5 document before you, do you recollect ever 6 having -- not ever, but having given the 7 public relations department of Monsanto 8 information to be used in a proposed press 9 response relating to PCB's or PCB testing? . 1 0 A . Not that I recall. 1 1 Q . Do you know whether gas . 1 2 chromatography alone will give a valid 1 3 identification for the presence of PCB's? 1 4 A . Yes , I know that. 1 5 Q And what's the answer? 1 6 A . I t w i 11 n o t . 17 Q Doe s gas chromatography together , 1 8 with the use o f a mass spectrometer, give a 1 9 positive i d e n t ification? 2 0 A . Yes ' w 2 1 Q - I t does? iII 2 2 A . I t does. | , II 2 3 Q Do you have an understanding as to ' 24 the degree of reliability of identification : i 2 5 when a gas chromatography -- when gas , GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 8 STLCOPCB4026993 chromatography is used alone? 2 MR. ZIMMER: Objection; vague. 3 A. Degree of reliability for -- 4 BY MR. TALLON: 5 Q Identificat ion o f PCB ' s . 6 A . Not reliabl e . 7 Q At all? 8 A . At all. 9 Q Other than the t r i pyou mentioned 1 0 that you took to Calif o r n i a t o meet with Dr. 1 1 Risebrough , do you rec o 1 1 e c t having had any 1 2 other communication wi t h hi m by phone or 1 3 otherwise? 1 4 A. I never had any direct 1 5 communication with him aside that one visit 1 6 that I mentioned that I can recall. 17 Q. And do you recall the reason or 1 8 reasons why it was determined by you or 1 9 others that you should take a trip to 1 2 0 California to meet with Dr. Risfibrough? 2 1 A . That was -- yes. I 2 2 Q What d o you recall? 2 3 A . That was set up primarily by Elmer 2 4 Wheeler, Medical Department. 2 5 Q. And do you have an understanding GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 16 9 STLCOPCB4026994 1 2 3 4 5 6 ij ii;; 7' 8 i1 i1 !j 9 |; 1 0 |: 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of the reason or reasons why it was determined that a trip to California to meet with Dr. Risebrough was appropriate at that time? A. I can't answer as to why the timing. I don't know. Q. Can you answer as to the reasons why the trip was taken? HR. ZIMMER: speculation. Calls for A . No . BY MR. TALLON: Q . You have no reason why the trip was MR . ZIMMER: A . You are a s ki Mr. Wheeler arr a n g e d f o not sure in my own mind if I answered. BY MR. TALLON: Q. I certainly don't want you to guess, but I was questioning whether, apart from a guess, you had any understanding as to the reason why the trip was taken. MR. ZIMMER: Asked and answered. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST . LOUIS , MIS SOURI 17 0 STLCOPCB4026995 A . Any und e r sta n d i n g , i though t I had 2 some understand i n g w hy the trip was be i n g 3 taken. Whether i t w a s the real reason , I 4 don't know. 5 Q . Well , c o u 1 d you r e 1 a t e , pie a s e , 6 the understandi n g t h a t you had? 7 A . I t w a s t o , a gain , g u ess w h a t 8 information exi s t e d s t r a i g h t f r o m the party 9 that produced i t ; i n t h is case. P C B re s i d u e s 1 0 findings, direc tly f r o m Dr . R i s e b r o u g h 1 1 Q . Did D r . R i s e b r o u g h f u r n i s h you 1 2 with any inform a t i o n d u ring the course o f 1 3 your visit with him? 1 4 A. He reviewed findings ofPCB and 1 5 aquatic species that he had worked with, and 1 6 I don't recall what those findings were at 1 7 this point in time. 1 8 MR. TALLON: Let me show you a 1 9 document, Dr. Keller, that we'll ask the 2 0 court reporter to mark as t h e G n d x t exhibit in 2 1 order. It's a two-page document bearing 2 2 production numbers TRAN 007918 and 7919. 2 3 (Plaintiff's Deposition 2 4 Exhibit 291 marked for 2 5 identification.) GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 1 STLCOPCB4026996 1 .'Witness peruses said 2 document . ) 3 BY MR. TALLON: 4 Q. Have you reviewed this, Dr. 5 Keller? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q . Does review of that exhibit 8 refresh your recollection in any respect as 9 to the nature of Dr. Risebrough's findings? 1 0 A . No . 1 1 Q. Can you identify that document for 1 2 the record? 1 3 A . It has my name on it. I don't 1 4 remember generating it. 1 5 Q Did you know an M. Stanley working 1 6 for M o n s anto in February 1969? 1 7 A . My best recollection would be that 1 8 would be Dr. Richard's secretary, Stanley. 1 9 Q Do you recollect whether your trip 2 0 to Calif ornia to meet with Dr? Itisebrough 2 1 predated or postdated your 1970 trip to 2 2 Europe? 2 3 A . Well, I believe it predated. ii i 2 4 Q And do you know whether your trip 2 5 to Calif ornia to meet with Dr. Risebrough GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ; , 17 2 STLCOPCB4026997 -A place i n February 19 6 2 A . No . Q D o you have any 4 having dictated your thoughts to an 5 M. Stanley following your visit with Dr. 6 Risebrough? 7 A . No . 8 Q. Did you or rather do you recollect 9 having furnished Dr. Risebrough any 1 0 information at the meeting that you do 1 1 recollect in California? 1 2 A . No . 1 3 Q. Do you recollect following the 1 4 meeting with Dr. Risebrough whether you had 1 5 reached any conclusions about the validity of 1 6 his work? 1 7 A. No, I don't recall that. 1 8 Q. Do you recollect. Dr. Keller, ever 1 9 having reviewed any papers prepared by Dr. 2 0 Risebrough in draft form? - 2 1 A. I have no recollection of that. 2 2 Q. Do you remember being a 2 3 participant. Dr. Keller, in any discussions 2 4 at Monsanto with respect to the conclusions 2 5 reached by Dr. Risebrough in his work? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 3 STLCOPCB4026998 1 A . No. 2 Q. Do you recollect having received 3 any documentation circulated within Monsanto 4 which commented on Dr. Risebrough's work? 5 A . No . 6 MR. TALLON: Let me show you a 7 document that, among other n umbers, has the 8 producti o n numbers T 091772 through 774, and 9 ask you t o take a moment and review that. 1 0 (Plaintiff's D e p o s i t i o n 1 1 Exhibit 292 marked for 1 2 identificati on.) 1 3 (Witness per uses s a i d 1 4 document.) 1 5 BY MR. TALLON: 1 6 Q Have you reviewed that. Dr . 1 7 Keller? 1 8 A . Yes. 1 9 0 Do you recollect having received 2 0 thatmemorandum? ^ 2 1 A. I just don't recall receiving ; i i 22 this. 2 3 Q. Does reviewing this memorandum j I ' 2 4 refresh your recollection as to whether or 2 5 not you were ever a participant in any ; i I i GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI ; 17 4 STLCOPCB4026999 1 discussions within Monsanto about the 2 conclusions of Dr. Risebrough's work? 3 A . No. 4 Q. Do you recollect ever having been 5 a participant in any discussions of -- at 6 Monsanto with respect to the possible effects 7 of Dr. Risebrough's work on the sale of PCB 8 about products? 9 A . No . 1 0 Q. Do you recollect ever having been 1 1 a participant in discussions at Monsanto with 1 2 respect to the possible effects of the work 1 3 of Widmark and Jensen on the sale of PCB 1 4 products? 1 5 A . No . 1 6 Q Doctor a re you familiar with the 1 7 the Yusho inci dent? 1 8 A . Can you spell that? 1 9 Q Y-u-s-h- o . 2 0 A . No . 2 1 Q . Are you, or do you recollect ever 2 2 learning whether PCB-based oils were believed 2 3 to have contaminated cooking oil in Japan? 2 4 A. Yes, that, I do recall. 2 5 Q. And what do you recollect in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 5 STLCOPCB4027000 cor. necti on with the p o s s i b 1 e con t a m i nation 2 which I just re f e r r e d 7 3 MR . ZIMMER : You said P C B -based 4 oils? 5 MR . TALLON . Yes. 6 A . All I r e c a 1 1 i s , t h e r e w a s an 7 incident , there , i n v o 1 V i n g c o o k i n g o i 1 , I 8 believe it was --Id o n ' t k n o w w hat it was, 9 the type of oil , and -- I g u ess rice , and I 1 0 guess a c o n t a m i nation P r o b 1 e m w h ere quite a 1 1 number o f p e o p 1 e were a f f e c t e d , but beyond 1 2 that, I can't - - I n e v e r got i n v o 1 v e d with 1 3 that. I don't even, a t this p o i n t , have no 1 4 idea of what w a s i n v o 1 V e d . 1 5 BY MR. TALLON: 1 6 0 Let me show a doc u m e n t be a r i n g 1 7 production numbers TRAN058726 and 727 and 1 8 ask if you can identify it. 1 9 (Plaintiff's Deposition 2 0 Exhibit 293 m'a rked for 2 1 identification.) 2 2 A. Canlidentifyit? 2 3 BY MR. TALLON: j ! ! 2 4 Q. Yes. i 2 5 A . No . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 6 STLCOPCB4027001 1 Q D o you recogniz the handwriting? 2 A . I t i s n 't mine. 3 Q I t i s not yours 4 A . I t i s not mine. 5 Q D o you recogniz e whose it is? 6 A . No ,. I don't. 7 Q Do you know, Dr . Keller , whether 8 P C B - based product invo 1v e d in the cooking 9 oil incident that you do r e c a 11 w a s 1 0 Therminol? 1 1 A . I don't recall it. 1 2 MR. ZIMMER: I'll object 1 3 belatedly, that it assumes facts not in 1 4 evidence . 1 5 BY MR. TALLON: 1 6 Q. I take it from your answer. Dr. 1 7 Keller, that you don't recollect ever having 1 8 personally been involved in any investigation 1 9 of the cooking oil incident that we've 2 0 referredto? - 2 1 A . I have no recollecti on of that. 2 2 0 Doctor, do you know wh e t h e r it' I 2 3 o state that each Aroclor c o n s i s t e d t1 2 4 a mixture of biphenyls? i 2 5 THE WITNESS: May I have the GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 7 STLCOPCB4027002 1 question come back to me again? 2 THE COURT REPORTER: 3 " Q - Doctor, do you know w h e t h e r 4 it's fair to s tate that each Aroclor 5 consisted of a mixture o f biphenyls?" 6 MR . ZIMMER: You mean Aroc lor in a 7 particular s e r ies, or any Aroclor at all? 8 MR . TALLON: Right, any. 9 THE WITNESS: And you mean , I 1 0 think, in your statement , chlorinated 1 1 biphenyls . 1 2 MR . TALLON: Right, I do. 13 THE WITNESS: Please read back in 1 4 the -- 1 5 THE COURT REPORTER: 16 "Q. Doctor, do you know whether : 1 7 it's fair to state that each Aroclor ! 1 8 consisted of a mixture of biphenyls?" 1 9 A. I think that's a fair statement; 2 0 chlorinated biphenyls. ` t 2 1 BY MR. TALLON: i 22 Q. Now let me be sure I understood j i 2 3 your answer. Is it fair to say that each ! ' 24 Aroclorconsisted ofa mixture of different j ; 2 5 chlorinatedbiphenyls? j GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 8 STLCOPCB4027003 1 A . Yes. 2 Q. Is it correct to say that Araclor 3 was a trade name used by Monsanto? 4 A . Yes. 5 Q. Doctor, do you recollect ever 6 learning whether testswere conducted for the 7 presence of Aroclor 1242 in the environment? 8 MR. ZIMMER: By whom? 9 MR. TALLON: By any Monsanto 1 0 personnel . 1 1 A . I think that was done by Monsanto 1 2 personnel at some point in time, perhaps 1 3 around plant sites or such, but I can't give 1 4 you a recoil e c t i o n of anymore than that. 1 5 BY MR . TALLON : 1 6 Q I s i t your present belief that 1 7 Aroclor 12 4 2 does persist in the environment? 1 8 A. Present belief? 1 9 Q. Right now, today. 2 0 A. I don't think it does. 2 1 Q. Do you think that the more highly 2 2 chlorinated components of Aroclor 1242 2 3 persist in the environment? 2 4 MR. ZIMMER: Wait. What are the 2 5 more highly chlorinated components of Aroclor GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 17 9 STLCOPCB4027004 1 1242, Counsel? 2 BY MR . TALLON : 3 Q. Can you answer thequestion? 4 MR. ZIMMER: No, he's not going to 5 answer it until we get that straightened out. 6 MR. TALLON: Reread the question. 7 THE COURT REPORTER: 8 "Q. Do you think that the more 9 highly chlorinated components of Aroclor 1242 1 0 persist in the environment?" 11 MR. ZIMMER; The question assumes 1 2 facts not in evidence, lacks foundation, 1 3 because we haven't talked about that at all, 1 4 so I'm asking you to define what you mean by 1 5 the more highly chlorinated components of 1 6 Aroclor 1242. 1 7 BY MR. TALLON: 1 8 Q. Can you answer the question. Dr. 1 9 Keller? 2 0 MR. ZIMMER: He's not going to do 2 1 that until you do. 2 2 MR. TALLON: I just want to be 2 3 clear for the record th at you are ins 2 4 him not to answer. Is that what you are 2 5 doing, Mr. Zimmer? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 0 STLCOPCB4027005 J. MR. ZIMMER: That's what I'm 2 doing, until you adequately lay the 3 foundation through his testimony for it. 4 MR. TALLON: We'll go back through 5 it. 6 BY MR. TALLON: 7 Q. Is it your testimony. Dr. Keller, 8 that each Aroclor consists of differently 9 chlorinated biphenyls? 1 0 A. Please read that back. 1 1 THE COURT REPORTER: 1 2 "Q. Is it your testimony, Dr. 1 3 Keller, that each Aroclor consists of 1 4 differently chlorinated biphenyls?" 1 5 A . Yes. 1 6 BY MR. TALLON: 1 7 Q. And are some of the biphenyls 1 8 found in, for example, Aroclor 1242 more 1 9 highly chlorinated than others? 2 0 A . Yes. ` 21 Q. And is it your understanding that 2 2 the more highly chlorinated components of 2 3 Aroclor 1242 persist in the environment? 2 4 A. If Aroclor 1242 contains five and 2 5 six and higher chlorinated biphenyls, yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 1 STLCOPCB4027006 -1 Q. Let me show you a document, Dr. 2 Keller. Do you lack understanding as to 3 whether Aroclor 1242 contains more highly 4 chlorinated biphenyls or do you not 5 recollect? 6 A. Well, I really don't -- I guess I 7 don't follow your question, "lack the 8 understanding of." Can you expand on that? 9 Q. Do you know? 1 0 MR . TALLON: Hang on for a second 1 1 (Discus s i o n off the re cord. ) 1 2 MR . TALLON: Excuse u s . 1 3 (Recess ) 1 4 THE WITNESS: May I comment out o 1 5 the last discussion on -- 1 6 BY MR. TALLON: 17 Q Yes, sure. 1 8 A . -- and, perhaps, clarify? 1 9 Q Yes, please. 2 0 A . This is out of me,'.not out of my 2 1 couns e1 , now. ! 2 2 MR. ZIMMER: Do you want to wait 2 3 and let him ask you a question? Or do you 2 4 feel a need to explain your answer. 25 THE WITNESS: Well, I'd like to t GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS , MIS SOURI j 18 2 STLCOPCB4027007 1 explain the a n s w e r, because I think we 1 r e 2 getting into some semantics and things where 3 we're e ach saying something a little 4 d i f f e r e nt and not quite -- 5 BY MR . TALLON: 6 Q. That needs to be avoided, so if 7 you can help, 8 A. All right, we're talking about 9 Aroclor 1242 and you are talking about 1 0 chlorinated biphenyl isomers at different 1 1 levels in that product. 1 2 Q . Mm- hmm . 1 3 A. And the earlier query that you 1 4 made of me on this this morning, I believe. 1 5 was are there higher chlorinated biphenyls in 1 6 A r o c lor 1242, and w e were talking a very 1 7 n a r r ow time frame a t that point, i f you 1 8 r e c a 11, that was ''67- '68 and I believe my 1 9 answer back to you was no. I think that was 2 0 the answer, but I'm not sure, and if I 2 1 answered no -- and I think that's the way I 2 2 answered -- I was answering in the context 2 3 that at that point in time, that was, that 2 4 was the right answer. We weren't aware of 25 it . GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 3 STLCOPCB4027008 d rV\ I see. 2 A . Now, as time went o n , however , and 3 w e g o t this methodology we'r e t alking abou +- 4 and w e moved into more s o p h i s t i cated studi e s 5 for a product, this wo u 1 d be 1 i k e early 6 S e v e n ties, then we cou Id r e a 11 y take apart 7 the i s o m e r , the mix of A r o c 1 o r 1242, then you 8 c o u Id show that there would b e a trace amo u n t 9 o f h i gher chlorinated, say f i v e and six 1 0 chi o r i n a t e d impurities or w h ate ver you wan t 11 t o c a 11 it, in 1242. So if you say, well, i s 1 2 A r o c 1 or 1242 -- I forg e t how y o u put it -- 1 3 s t a bl e in the environm e n t or i n the 1 4 e n v i r o n m e n t , would you find i t in the 1 5 e n v i r o n m e n t , you would -- t h e m ain princip a 1 1 6 par t of Aroclor 1242 y o u would not likely 1 7 find it, because it's quite biodegradable. 1 8 If there's a trace amount of impurity, you 1 9 perhaps would, could find some. 20 Now, the problem i's ,`with that ^ 2 1 trace amount of five and six chlorinated j 2 2 biphenyls, finding it in the environment | j2 3 doesn't mean it came from Aroclor 1242 or any ! 24 other product. You can't be sure which of j 2 5 this 1200 series it might have come from. i j GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 4 STLCOPCB4027009 1 The only way you could know that is to know 2 that the full blend of isomers were still 3 intact in whatever you are looking at. Now, 4 I don't know if I've confused or -- 5 Q. No, I don't think so. 6 Is it possible, using the GC/mass 7 system, to test a sample and determine which 8 Aroclor is present in that sample, if any one 9 is? 1 0 MR. ZIMMER: What sort of sample? 1 1 MR. TALLON: I just want to use 1 2 the word "sample," because -- 1 3 A. You mean like a river sample out 1 4 here? 1 5 BY MR. TALLON 1 6 Q. Sure, river mud. 1 7 A. Or water, whatever. 1 8 Q . Certainly. 1 9 A. I think you are hung up now -- 2 0 excuse me, I'm not trying to ledture you; we 21 are hung up. You referred "Is it 2 2 possible" -- could we play back your 2 3 question, if you will, please? 2 4 THE COURT REPORTER: 2 5 "Is it possible, using the GC/mass GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 5 STLCOPCB4027010 1 system , to test a sample and determine which 2 Aroclor is present in that sample, if any one 3 is?" 4 A. It's possible to determine which 5 Aroclor if there has been no degradation of 6 all the components of that product, because 7 you would get a typical envelope relative to 8 the mixture that's in there. If it's 9 decomposed out in the environment, some, no 1 0 longer have a characteristic envelope because 1 1 some of the products have disappeared here. 1 2 Now, it might have been shifted over to look 1 3 like a higher chlorinated species, of Aroclor 1 4 product. I'm just trying to point' out the 1 5 complexity of this that you can't go by what 1 6 the residue is unless there's been no 1 7 degradation of the full mix of ingredients, 1 8 and say that was the product involved. 1 9 BY MR. TALLON: 2 0 Q. If the components 'h a e not 2 1 degraded, would a test such as the one you 2 2 just described yield an identifiable 2 3 signature -- 2 4 A . Yes. 2 5 Q. -- of a particular Aroclor? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 6 STLCOPCB4027011 Xi A . Yes. Most cases it would, yes. 2 Q. If some but not all of the 3 components have degraded, is it possible to 4 determine with a reasonable degree of 5 scientific certainty what Aroclor is being 6 depicted by the test results? 7 A. It could be possible if you 8 absolutely knew the degradation conditions so 9 that you knew that you had the product held 1 0 at a certain temperature, whatever, and you 1 1 had, you had studied this and had a profile 1 2 what happens t o that as a ty P i cal pro file 1 3 compare the next one to. But if you don't 1 4 know what conditions there are, whereby 1 5 degradation might speed up one time, go down 1 6 another, chemical around that would change 1 7 it, then you couldn't be sure. 1 8 Q. Are there factors other than 1 9 temperature which have an influence on 2 0 degradation? ^' 2 1 A . Well, I ' m not a good one to answer 2 2 that to you , b e c a u s e I -- temperature would 2 3 be a factor if t h e r e were bacteria. 2 4 microorganisms, of course, that could be a 2 5 factor, perhaps light, ultraviolet light, and GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 7 STLCOPCB4027012 1 all cornbin a tions of all these. That's why it 2 could vary quite a bit. 5 C Is time a factor? 4 A . Time is a factor. 5 Q Are you familiar with the term 6 dichlorobiphenyl? 7 A . Well, I know the term but I'm not 8 really fami liar -- 9 Q What about trich1orobipheny1? 10 A. Mm-hmm . (Nods head in affirmative 1 1 manner) . 1 2 Q Are you familiar with that term? 1 3 A . Yes. Yes. 1 4 Q. What about tetrach1orobipheny1? 1 5 A . Yes . 1 6 Q. And pentach1orobipheny1? ; 17 A . Y e s . j l 1 8 Q. As a chemist, what is the 1 9 significance -- or, not the significance, but ' 20 what is the distinction to you among the six ' ' ` i j. 2 1 phenyls I have just identified, or excuse me, 2 2 the four phenyls I have just identified? 2 3 A. As a chemist, one, it means the l i 24 higher chlorinated species are going to be ; i 25 more,probably more insoluble, like inwater. : GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 8 STLCOPCB4027013 1 As you go up in chlorination level. 2 Q. Does -- is pentachlorobiphenyl 3 more highly chlorinated than 4 dichlorobiphenyl? 5 A . More chlorinated than -- 6 Q Di . 7 A . Oh, yes. Penta would be five. 8 Q And di would be two. 9 A . Right . 1 0 Q And trich1orobipheny1? 1 1 A . Three . 1 2 0 . Tetra would be four. 1 3 A . Right . 1 4 Q And so forth. 1 5 A . Mm-hmm . 1 6 Q Are there any higher than eight? 1 7 A . No. Well -- 1 8 Q That would be hexachlorobiphenyl; 1 9 correct? 2 0 A . Could be ten, theoretically. 2 1 Q Now, to your knowledge, did 2 2 Aroclor 1242 include components of 2 3 pentachlorobiphenyl? 2 4 A. Today's knowledge, or back in the 2 5 period we're talking about? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 18 9 STLCOPCB4027014 1 Q. Does it make a difference to you 2 when? 3 A . Yes, it does. 4 Q. Are you aware, today, whether 5 Aroclor 1242 includes pentachlorobipheny1? 6 A. I am aware of when I was last 7 involved with this work, which started to 8 phase out in the early Seventies, that there 9 was a trace amount of p e n t a in 1242. 1 0 Q. And when for the first t i m 1 1 you b e come aware that there was a t r a 1 2 amount of pentach1orobipheny1 present in the 1 3 composition of Aroclor 1242? 1 4 A. When, did you say? 1 5 Q . Yes, when? 16 A. This would be earlySeventies. I 1 7 can't do better than that. 1 8 Q. Is -- when you used the term 1 9 "trace amount," to what do you -- what 2 0 quantity do you intend to refer? 2 1 A. A few percent. Could be maybe as 2 2 high as a few percent. 2 3 Q. Are you using the term "a few" to 2 4 mean two or three? 2 5 A. Two or three. GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 0 STLCOPCB4027015 Q . Do you know whether Aroclor 1242 2 is five to ten pentach1orobipheny1? 3 A. Well, that sounds higher than I 4 think I remember it, but I guess it's 5 possible. I don't -- I really can't recall 6 that information. 7 Q . Well, let me show you a document; 8 actually, this appears to be two copies of 9 the same document, bearing production number 1 0 TRAN 044212, dated -- which appears to be a 1 1 memorandum from Cumming Paton to W. R. 1 2 Richard dated September 27th, 1971. 1 3 MR. TALLON : And for the record. 1 4 I'll note that in the upper right-hand 1 5 corner, there's a notation appearing to read, 1 6 "cc: R. Keller, Scott Tucker." 17 A. It's penciled in; a handwritten 1 8 notation. 1 9 MR. TALLON: Dr. Keller, the court 2 0 reporter correctly notes that^we should mark 2 1 this exhibit. 2 2 (Plaintiff's Deposition 2 3 Exhibit 294 marked for 2 4 identification.) 2 5 BY MR. TALLON: GOREREPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS,MISSOURI 19 1 STLCOPCB4027016 Q. Now that the court reporter has 2 marked it, please take a moment and review 3 that. 4 We'll note for the record,. Dr . 5 Keller , that you have before you a one-page 6 document , TRAN 044212 which has been marked 7 as Exhibit 294, and I'll ask you whether you 8 recollect having seen that before. 9 (Witness peruses said 1 0 document.) 1 1 1 A. I have not seen this, to my 1 2 recollection. 1 3 Q . Does review of that document 1 4 refresh your recollection in any respect as 15 to the constituent chlorinated biphenyls of . 1 6 Aroclor 1242? , 17 A. Yes, I think this bears on the ; 1 8 point I was making earlier. : 1 9 Q. Is it correct to say, Dr. Keller, 2 0 that Aroclor 1242 has be tweeny five and ten j 2 1 percent -- is between five and ten percent 2 2 composed of pentach1orobipheny1? 2 3 A. I presume that's the intent of j 24 this memo, but that's a presumption because j i 2 5 beyond that, I can't -- I don't know. | GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 2 STLCOPCB4027017 1 MR. ZIMMER: He's not asking you 2 to presume the intent of the memo, he's 3 asking you whether that refreshes your 4 recollection . 5 BY MR. TALLON: 6 Q. Do you know whether or not Aroclor 7 1242 contains between five to ten percent 8 pentachlorobiphenyl? 9 A. I don't know; personally. 1 0 Q. If you were able to look within 1 1 the records of Monsanto, where would you look 1 2 to determine the precise constituents, 1 3 constituency of Aroclor 1242? 1 4 A . Where would I look? 1 5 Q Yes. Is there a manual that you 1 6 would look at or testing results? 1 7 A . Today , or anytime? 1 8 Q Well, if -- at the time that you 1 9 were worki n g . 2 0 A . I wouldn't know wh^ere to g o . 2 1 Q . You wouldn't know where to go 2 2 today? 2 3 A . No . 2 4 Q But if you were still working at 2 5 Monsanto in the mid Seventies, where would GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 3 STLCOPCB4027018 you have gone to look for such information? 2 A. I would, I would think the 3 Business Group would be a repository of that 4 kind of information. Responsible for the 5 product because after all, it is composition 6 of the product. 7 Q . Let me -- do you recollect, Dr. 8 Keller,whether at any time in the late 9 1960's, Scott Tucker determined that Aroclor 1 0 1242 had been found in tests of sediment or 1 1 water? 1 2 A. I don't recall that. 1 3 Q. Let me show you, then, a document 14 that we'll mark as the next exhibit in order 1 5 It's a one-page document bearing production 1 6 number TRAN 009858, and after it's marked, 1 7 I'd ask you to just take a moment and review 18 it . 1 9 (Plaintiff's Deposition 2 0 Exhibit 295 m^a r k e d for 2 1 identification.) 2 2 BY MR. TALLON: 2 3 Q. Doctor, do you have any 2 4 recollection of having received this 2 5 memorandum or a copy of this memorandum in GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 4 STLCOPCB4027019 1 1969? 2 A . No. 3 Q . Do you recollect whether Mr. 4 Tucker performed any tests on sediment and 5 water from Snow Creek and ascertained the 6 presence of Aroclor 1242, whether or not 7 you've seen this memo before? 8 MR. ZIMMER: Calls for 9 speculation. 10 A . I know he w a s doing w o this 1 1 type at that time,, but t h a t ' s all 1 2 BY MR. TALLON: 1 3 Q. Does Monsanto have a plant at a 1 4 location known as Snow Creek? 1 5 A. I don't know what Snow Creek is. 1 6 Q Okay , that answer s that. 1 7 D o c t or, we need t o refer b a c k for 1 8 jus t a moment t o an exhibit t h at we 1 o o k e d at 1 9 a 1 i 111 e e a r 1 i e r , and specif i c ally, I r e f e r 2 0 you now to Exhi bit 291 t^ 2 1 Understanding that you do not 2 2 recollect this particular document, I simply 2 3 want to ascertain whether you have any 2 4 understanding of the phrase in that memo that 2 5 states, "Work in our labs shows at least 13 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 5 STLCOPCB4027020 1 c o ir. p o n ents in Aroclcr 1242. 2 MR. ZIMMER: Calls for 3 speculation. 4 THE WITNESS: May I have the 5 question back, please, sir? 6 THE COURT REPORTER: 7 "Understanding that you do not 8 recollect this particular document, I simply 9 want to ascertain whether you have any 1 0 understanding of the phrase in that memo that 1 1 states, 'Work in our labs shows at least 13 1 2 components in Aroclor 1242.'" 1 3 A. Some understanding. 1 4 BY MR. TALLON: 1 5 G What is your understanding 1 6 A . It says that chromatogram obtained 1 7 by Monsanto differs from that one, or those 1 8 obtained by Risebrough. 1 9 Q Are you aware of any work done by 20 your labs or to put it another way, Monsanto 21 labs, determining that there were at least 13 I 2 2 components of Aroclor 1242? 2 3 A. No. i j I 1 24 MR. TALLON: Let me show you a I 25 multipage exhibit, Doctor, which begins with t! I I GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 196 STLCOPCB4027021 * he production number TRAN 005799 and 2 proceeds through production number TRAN 3 007563. 4 (Plaintiff's Deposition 5 Exhibit 296 marked for 6 identification. ) 7 (Witness peruses said 8 document . ) 9 BY MR. TALLON: 1 0 Q Did you review that? 1 1 A . Yes. 1 2 Q Can you identify the document 1 3 beginning with the first page, TRAN 005799 ? 1 4 A . This pag e (Indicating)? 1 5 0 Yes. 1 6 A . Yes. 1 7 Q And t h e r efore, please identify it. ' 1 8 A . This i s a plan document out of the ' 1 9 Analytica 1 Chemistry Group of Applied 2 0 Sciences for support of toxicity testing, 2 1 primarily 2 2 0 Did you play any role in the 2 3 preparati on of the first page, numbered 5799? 2 4 A . I ' m hesitating because I'm not 2 5 certain. If Sc o 11 Tucker was a group leader GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI j 197 STLCOPCB4027022 1 on that d a t e in ' 69 -- and that's s one where 2 in that pe r i o d -- he would have t a k e n the 3 lead in pr e p a r i n g this. If he w a s not , I 4 could have taken the lead. But i t was 5 between t h e two o f us. 6 Q By "th at date in 1 9 6 9, M you are 7 referring to J a n u ary 14th, 1 9 6 9, t h e d ate 8 which appe a r s in the upper right- h a n d corner? 9 A . Yes. 1 0 Q Do you have a present 1 1 understanding as to the purpose for which 1 2 this chart was prepared? 1 3 A. It was to assure us that we had 1 4 r e s o u r c e s adequate to take care of what was 1 5 being gene rated in coming back out o f 1 6 toxicity studies. 17 Q. And what exactly does the chart 1 8 show? 1 9 A. Well, it shows when materials are 2 0 going to be available for analyses. That's 2 1 my best recollection and interpretation of 2 2 this. 2 3 Q. For example, does the chart 2 4 indicate that Aroclor loaded chicken 2 5 materials would be available in the end o f GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 8 STLCOPCB4027023 1 March 1 9 6 9 ? 2 A . That's my best recollection. 3 Q. Did you have responsibility for 4 overseeing the project or projects depicted 5 on the first page of this exhibit? 6 A. Scott Tucker would have had that. 7 Q. And did he report to you in that 8 connection? 9 A. Yes. 1 0 Q. Do you have a present 1 1 understanding of the -- whether there was a 1 2 request to your group which initiated the 1 3 project or projects depicted on this chart? 1 4 A . Yes. 1 5 Q. Was there a request? 1 6 A. To my best recollection, yes. 1 7 o. What was the request? 1 8 A . From the Medical Department to 1 9 provide support for their toxicity studies 2 0 Q. And in general te rHi s`, Dr. Keller, ! 1 2 1 what support to the Medical Department is j 2 2 depicted on this chart? i I 2 3 A. It shows that the Analytical Group 2 4 will provide analyses needed for the 2 5 materials shown, as schedules. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 19 9 STLCOPCB4027024 Q . Just by way of example, then, does 2 the notation "Aroclor loaded chicken" mean 3 that yourgroup was doing tests on loaded 4 chickens? 5 MR. ZIMMER: What's a loaded 6 chicken, Counsel? 7 MR. TALLON: I wish I could say. 8 A. I don't recall now. I really 9 can't recall well enough to help interpret 1 0 that. 1 1 BY MR. TALLON: 1 2 Q. And does that mean you are not 1 3 sure of the meaning of "loaded chicken"? 1 4 A. Correct. 1 5 Q. Does looking at the following 1 6 pages, thetyped pages, assist you in any way 1 7 in interpreting the information on the first 1 8 page of the exhibit? 1 9 A. Well, it simply points out, it's a 2 0 work plan showing resources, 'manpower, target 2 1 dates, job, and some indication of why it has 2 2 to be done. 2 3 MR. ZIMMER: Try and answer his 2 4 question, though, which is, does reading the 25 typewritten pages assistyou in interpreting GORE REPORTING COMPANY ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 200 STLCOPCB4027025 the first page which you've indicated you 2 could not do? 3 A . No. 4 BY MR. TALLON: 5 Q. Do you recall,Dr. Keller, whether 6 in 1969 it was one of the projects undertaken 7 by your group to develop a technique for 8 ident i fication and measurement of combustion 9 products, simulating the burning of NCR 1 0 paper? : 1 1 A. Yes. 1 2 Q. And do you recall whethersuch a 1 3 technique was developed? 1 4 A . Yes . ; 1 5 Q. Was one? ; 1 6 A. It's my best recollection one was j 17 developed,yes. j 18 Q. And whattechnique was that? ; 1 9 A. I can't give you details. It was i 20 a burning combustion technique of laboratory j 2 1 scale with collection of combustion products ! 2 2 andsubsequent analyses. 23 Q. Was part of thetesting to burn 2 4 NCR carbonless carbon paper? j 2 5 A. It's my recollection that was a GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 201 STLCOPCB4027026 strong justification for doing it, yes. 2 Q. Were youable to determine or to 3 ascertain whether incineration was a source 4 of environmental contamination in 5 relationship to the studies you've just 6 described or the technique you've just 7 described? 8 THE WITNESS: Please read that 9 back. . 1 0 THE COURT REPORTER: 1 1 "Q. Were you able to determine or 1 2 to ascertain whether incineration was a 1 3 source of environmental contamination in 1 4 relationship to thestudies you've just 1 5 described or the technique you've just 1 6 described?" ! 1 7 A. It's my best recollection that the 1 8 results of those laboratory studies indicated 1 9 incineration could be a problem under certain 2 0 conditions. j 2 1 Q. By "could be a problem," do you 2 2 mean was a source or potential source of lI i 1 2 3 environmental contamination? I 2 4 A . Yes . j 25 Q. And under what circumstances was I l GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI i ** . . 202 STLCOPCB4027027 that a concern? 2 A. Under certain conditions of incineration or burning. I can't give you 4 anymore than that. I don't know. 5 Q. Do you recollect whether the 6 conditions that caused the concern were 7 uncontrolled i nc i neration? 8 A. No, I don't recall that. 9 Q. Do you recall whether the 1 0 conditions that caused the concern were 1 1 uncontrolled disposal of the residue of the 1 2 incineration? 1 3 A. No. I don't recall that. 1 4 Q. Doctor, do you have knowledge as 1 5 to who drafted the typewritten pages which 1 6 constitute the plans annexed to the chart 1 7 that forms part of Exhibit 296? 1 8 A. These plans? 1 9 Q. Yes. 2 0 A. Well, as I comment,ed earlier , it 2 1 was a joint effort between Scott Tucker and 2 2 myself, and I don't know who took the lead in 2 3 that. I just don't remember. 2 4 Q. Were these plans typed up as part 2 5 of the regularbusiness of yourdepartment? GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 203 STLCOPCB4027028 J. MR. ZIMMER: Calls for 2 speculation. 3 A. The regular business of our 4 department would be handled on a variety of 5 plans of this type, so it's consistent with 6 our standard operating procedure, but it may 7 not be the exact format used on all projects. 8 BY MR. TALLON: 9 Q. Is it fair to say, then, that it , 1 0 was part of the regular business of your 1 1 department to commit plans with respect to 1 2 any projects to paper? 1 3 A. Yes; large projects. 14 Q. And were the projects depicted in ` 1 5 these plans which you have before you 1 6 considered by you to be large products -- 17 projects? 1 8 A . Ye s . ; ! ' j 19 Q. Doctor, if you would look at Page , 20 TRAN 005800, it's the firstp<sge immediately I i 2 1 following the handwritten chart. There's a 2 2 ranking of priority 1 through 4 on that page ii 2 3 and then continuing on the next page. Do you j 24 have anyrecollection of, to the reason why ! j 2 5 the information listed after item 1 has GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 204 STLCOPCB4027029 1 greater priori ty than the information listed 2 after i tern 3 ? 0 r let me strike that. 3 Let m e ask you another question. 4 Was the project , or job identified following 5 item 1 , of a g r eater priority than that 6 foil owing item 3, or any subsequent item? 7 MR. ZIMMER: Lacks foundation, 8 calls for speculation. 9 MR. ZIMMER: And remember, he's 1 0 not asking you to interpret the document, 1 1 he's asking if you recall that. 1 2 A. No, I don't recall that. 1 3 BY MR. TALLON: 1 4 Q. Just checking for a moment, item 1 5 4, the product -- products, actually - 1 6 identified there are Aroclor 1242, 1254 and 1 7 1260. Doyouseethat? 1 8 A. Yes . 19 Q. And it states that a job or 2 0 project was to develop sensitive ( p p b ) G C / EC, j 2 1 GC/microcou1ometer and GC/mass methods for 2 2 Aroclor products in environmental manifests: 2 3 One, water; two, soil; three, wildlife? Do 2 4 you see that? 2 5 A . Yes. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 205 STLCOPCB4027030 1 Q. Do you recollect thatsuch a 2 project was undertaken? 3 . A. No . 4 Q. Do you know what a microcoulometer 5 is? 6 A. It's a detectorused with gas 7 chromatography to measure components being 8 separated. I'm not familiar with the 9 technical explanation of it. 1 0 Q. I'm sorry, you are not familiar 1 1 with what? 1 2 A. I'm not familiar with the 1 3 technical explanation of it. 1 4 Q. Oh. Do you recall whether it was 1 5 the justification for any job or project 1 6 ongoing in your group in 1969 to determine 1 7 the environmental contamination to protect a 1 8 product position with the customer? 1 9 A . No . 2 0 Q. Referring specifically to the 2 1 justification found under Item 4 on that same 2 2 page, do you have any information who the 2 3 author of the words appearing there is? 2 4 A . No . 2 5 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Tucker had GOREREPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 206 STLCOPCB4027031 1 anyone working for him whose job it was at that time to prepare plans such as the one 3 we're looking at here? 4 A . No . 5 Q. Do you know whether that was part 6 of Mr. Tucker's job? 7 A. To prepare plans? 8 Q. Yes, such as this. 9 A. Yes. It could have been. 10 Q. Was it someone's job other than ; 1 1 Mr.Tucker? 1 2 A . No . 13 Q. Did there come a time, Dr. Keller, t 14 when, in the course of your work at Monsanto, ; 15 you were asked to do testing with respect to : 1 6 substitute products for aroclors? 17 A . Yes . 1 8 Q. And approximately when do you j j j [I : 19 recall being asked to do such work for the . 2 0 first time? ^ I j 2 1 A. Well, bestrecollection, it would 2 2 late '69 or 1970. 2 3 Q. And what is it that you recall 2 4 that you were requested or asked to do? 2 5 A. To monitor work directed toward GORE REPORTING C'-OMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 1rt . 1 ...j' 2 07 STLCOPCB4027032 1 was ever proposed to take the place of other 2 aroclors in reformulated products? 3 A . No. 4 Q. Do you have any present 5 recollection of having discussed with Mr. 6 Tucker replacement formulations for Pydraul 7 AC or Pydraul 625? 8 A . No . 9 Q . Do you have any present 1 0 recollection of Mr. Tucker having recommended 1 1 to you against using Aroclor 1242 in 1 2 replacement formulations? 1 3 A . No . 1 4 MR. TALLON: L e t me show you a 1 5 document,, Doctor, which w e 'll ask t h e court 1 6 reporter to mark as the n e xt exhibit in order 17 and it bearsproduction numbers TRAN 022055 | 1 8 and 56. 19 (Plaintiff's Deposition ( 20 Exhibit 297 m^a rljed for j 2 1 identification.) 2 2 (Witness peruses said 2 3 document.) 2 4 BY MR. TALLON: ( iI ! 2 5 Q. Doctor, does reviewing any portion GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 209 STLCOPCB4027033 A of that exhibit, including page 2, refresh 2 your recollection in any way as to 3 communications between you and Mr. Tucker, 4 about the use of Aroclor 1242 in replacement 5 formulations? 6 A . No . 7 Q. Doctor, do you know the meaning of 8 the term "refractory" as it relates to 9 biodegradabi1ity or the rate of 1 0 biodegradation? 1 1 A. I think I do. 1 2 Q. Would you tell me what your 1 3 definition of that term is? 1 4 A. It means it's hard to biodegrade. 1 5 Q. Okay, do you know if that term was 1 6 ever in use at Monsanto in the early 1 7 Seventies? Th at is to say, "refra c t o r y . " 1 8 MR . ZIMMER: By anyone? 1 9 BY MR. TALLON: 2 0 Q Did you ever use i,t ? , 2 1 A . Not to my re collection. I 2 2 can't -- I can never re call using i t . 2 3 MR . TALLON: Okay. We can break 2 4 here. 2 5 MR . ZIMMER: Okay. GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 2 10 I STLCOPCB4027034 X1 (Whereupon, at 4:55 p . ir. . , the 2 deposition was recessed.) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GORE REPORTING COMPANY - ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 211 STLCOPCB4027035