Document w5V6xXz9YnwO0OBm2xx05xLD

IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF KING STEVEN D. McABOY, for himself and as Personal Representative of the Estate of JEAN McABOY, a single person, ) ) ) ) Plaintiff ) vs. ) ) IMO INDUSTRIES, INC., individually) and as successor-in-interest to ) and f/k/a DELAVAL TURBINE, INC., IMO DELAVAL INC., and WARREN PUMPS, a Delaware corporation, ) ) ) et al., ) No. 05-2-18854-5 SEA Defendants. DEPOSITION OF ROSS ARTHUR HACKEL, taken pursuant to Notice, before Dan Robbins, Certified Shorthand Reporter-Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, on Friday, August 12, 2005, at the ACBA Greensburg office, 129 North Pennsylvania Avenue, Greensburg, Pennsylvania 15601, commencing at 11:15 a.m. ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 On behalf of the Plaintiff: 3 Schroeter, Goldmark & Bender William Rutzick, Esquire (via telephone) 4 500 Central Building 810 Third Avenue 5 Seattle, Washington 98104 6 On behalf of Defendant Elliott Company: 7 Forsberg Umlauf, P.S. Carl E. Forsberg, Esquire 8 Melissa K. Habeck, Esquire 900 Fourth Avenue, Suite 1700 9 Seattle, Washington 98164 10 On behalf of Defendants General Electric Company and Viacom, Inc.: 11 Williams, Kastner & Gibbs, PLLC 12 Jeffrey M. Odom, Esquire (via telephone) 601 Union Street, Suite 4100 13 14 On behalf of Defendant Goulds Pumps, Inc.: 15 Soha & Lang, P.S. Misty Edmundson, Esquire (via telephone) 16 701 Fifth Avenue, Suite 2400 Seattle, Washington 98104 17 On behalf of Defendant Ingersoll-Rand Company: 18 Corr Cronin Michelson Baumgardner & Preece, LLP Nancy T. Le, Esquire (via telephone) 1001 Fourth Avenue, Suite 3900 Seattle, Washington 98154 Also Present: 22 George Gojkovich, Paralegal, Elliott Company 23 24 25 ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd 1 INDEX 2 WITNESS: 3 ROSS ARTHUR HACKEL 4 Examination by Mr. Rutzick 5 6 EXHIBITS: 7 Deposition Exhibit No. 1 8 Deposition Exhibit No. 2 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 Page 3 PAGE: 4 PAGE: 7 55 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd 1 were submitted relative to the motions. Page 5 2 Q. Could you be a little more specific on the last 3 category ? 4 A. I can't really. I don't remember exactly how 5 they were titled. 6 Q. Do you have any of those papers with you today? 7 A. No, I don't. The only paper I have with me 8 today is my declaration. 9 Q. Okay. When did you read the various documents 10 you told me about? 11 A. In the last two days. 12 Q. Are you being paid for your time, sir? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. How much and by whom? 15 A. I am being paid by Elliott, who may be paid by 16 some insurance companies. 17 Q. And how much are you being paid? 18 A. For this moment right at this time, $250 an 19 hour. 20 Q. Is that going to change in the very near 21 future? 22 A. No. Basically, I have two rates: $120 an hour 23 for research and $250 an hour for trial work. 24 Q. And what was the rate for reading those various 25 documents? ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 7 1 MR. RUTZICK: Let's go off the record a minute. 2 (A discussion was held off the record.) 3 (Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was marked 4 for identification.) 5 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: Mr. Hackel, could you 6 please -7 MR. FORSBERG: Do we have copies for us in that 8 packet? 9 MR. RUTZICK: No. Of his declaration, the one 10 that he said he had? 11 MR. FORSBERG: Well, he has a copy of it . I am 12 just wondering if there is any for counsel in there. 13 MR. RUTZICK: No. I just made the one as to 14 the declaration. At least I believe that was the case. 15 I kind of assumed you had copies of those. 16 MR. FORSBERG: Do you have copies of the other 17 ones that are in the packet? 18 MR. RUTZICK: No. 19 MR. FORSBERG: Okay. Well, if we don't have 20 them -- I have the declaration. But if we don't have 21 the other ones, I will just ask to stop at some point 22 and get copies of the other ones. 23 MR. RUTZICK: Of course. There is only one 24 other one. We will deal with it as we go. 25 MR. FORSBERG: Okay. ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 9 1 Q. Okay. It's dated what day? July 14 maybe? 2 A. That's the date at the top of it. 3 Q. If you look at Page 5 -4 A. The 14th is the date that I signed it. 5 Q. Right. So assuming that you signed it the 6 14 th, when did this process begin, if you know? And by 7 "this process," I mean the process which led to this 8 being written and signed. 9 A. I probably seen this a week before that, the 10 draft of it. 11 Q. Okay. I am going to go through this in some 12 detail I guess starting where I start. Is there an 13 Exhibit B to yours, to Exhibit 1? 14 A. Yes, there is. 15 Q. Did you provide that to the attorneys, or did 16 they provide it to you, or was it some variant I haven't 17 thought of? 18 A. I personally did not give it to them. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. Let me put it that way. 21 Q. You did give it to them? 22 A. I did not give it to them. 23 Q. Do you know where it came from? 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. Where did it come from? ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd 1 MR. RUTZICK: Yes. Page 11 2 MR. FORSBERG: What's the relevance of any of 3 this to what you are doing? Where he sits? 4 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: Go ahead, sir. 5 MR. FORSBERG: I am going to object to all of 6 this. He works in the law department at Elliott. 7 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: Well, is that right, sir? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Where did he tell you he found it? 10 A. He showed me. 11 Q. Where did he find it? 12 A. In the Elliott documents. I am not sure 13 exactly what drawer or where he looked to find them, but 14 he found them. 15 Q. Is Attachment A -- I'm sorry. Exhibit B, is 16 that a complete document? 17 A. It looks complete to me. 18 Q. When is the first time you saw Exhibit B? 19 A. I don't really know. It was probably some time 20 ago. 21 Q. Can you put a decade or a year on it? 22 A. Last year. 23 Q. Can you remember the circumstances in which you 24 saw it last year? 25 A. Not really. ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 13 1 Q. You indicated you saw it in some Elliott files. 2 Do you know how long it had been in the Elliott files? 3 A. Probably in that time frame. 4 Q. That is to say about a year? 5 A. Year to two years, yes. 6 Q. All right. Are you able to tell me with any 7 more specificity than you already have who sent you -8 by "you ," I mean Elliott -- either Exhibit B or Exhibit 9 C? 10 MR. FORSBERG: Asked and answered. Go ahead. 11 THE WITNESS: I believe it came from a 12 plaintiff's attorney originally, and we may have had it 13 at that point in time. But one of the documents I 14 looked at yesterday had a plaintiff's attorney's name on 15 it. 16 Q. 17 A. BY MR. RUTZICK: Which document was that? Both of the B and C. 18 Q. Okay. And which plaintiff's attorney was it? 19 A. Barry Bobbitt. 20 Q. Could you spell that person's last name, 21 please? 22 A. B-o-b-b-i-t-t, if you don't make me say that 23 that's absolutely right. 24 Q. I wouldn't think of it. 25 I take it that the one you saw yesterday was a ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 14 1 different version of this one because this one 2 doesn't - - by "this one," I mean Attachments B and C -3 don't appear to have anybody's name on them? 4 A. Oh, yeah. That's the way they came, and they 5 just had a cover letter over them. 6 Q. I see. 7 A. There may have been some other documents in 8 there, too. I don't remember. But I know that these 9 two were in that packet. 10 Q. Okay. Exhibit C has a date in the upper right 11 on the first page of December 1951. Do you see that? 12 A. Yes, I do. 13 Q. Do you know whether this specification was ever 14 changed? 15 A. From 1951? 16 Q. Yes, sir. 17 A. It probably was. I don't know that for a fact. 18 Q. Okay. Have you ever seen any changes in the 19 specification? 20 A. Not that I can recall. 21 Q. Do you know what preceded this December 1951 22 iteration of Exhibit C? 23 A. No, I don't really. 24 Q. Do you know how long it was in effect? 25 A. No, I don't really. ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd 1 Q. Have you ever looked? 2 A. No. Page 15 3 Q. How do you know that is actually a Bureau of 4 Navy document? 5 A. It says "Department of Navy, Bureau of Ships" 6 on top of it. 7 Q. Okay. Is Exhibit C a complete document? 8 A. It looks complete to me. 9 Q. What's Exhibit D to your declaration? 10 A. That's an internal Elliott document that was 11 engineering instructions that the engineering department 12 used to build deaerating feed tanks. 13 Q. When is the first time you saw Exhibit D? 14 A. I am going to say sometime in the last -- I 15 don't really remember, but it probably was two years, 16 maybe three years. I don't know. Something like that. 17 Some time ago. 18 Q. Ago? 19 A. Some time ago. 20 Q. Within the past five years? 21 A. Yes. Within the past five years I think is a 22 good answer. 23 Q. Okay. Who gave it to you? 24 A. Nobody. 25 Q. How did you locate it? ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd 1 A. I looked in Elliott's files. Page 16 2 Q. Where did you look? 3 A. Elliott has a bunch of microfilm, and I found 4 the microfilm sheet for E Record 108139. And it was 5 microfilm, and I looked at the microfilm, and this is 6 one of the pages in that microfilm list. 7 Q. Did you choose to put Exhibit D in your 8 declaration, or is it somebody else? 9 A. I think somebody else. 10 Q. Do you know who that was? 11 A. No, I don't. 12 Q. Do you know how they came across Exhibit D? 13 Did you tell them about it? 14 A. Yeah. We were aware of it, and I was aware of 15 it. And , you know, it's one of the materials that I 16 provided or at least gave to my paralegal, who 17 transmitted it to them. 18 I used my term "paralegal." Is that a problem 19 for you? He helps me immensely. 20 Q. It's not a problem for me at all. 21 Does he help other people besides yourself, or 22 does he work mostly for you? 23 A. No. He works for the Elliott attorneys. 24 Q. How much in the past year, for example, sir, do 25 you work full-time or part-time or what? ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 17 1 A. I am retired, and I am trying to work 2 part-time. 3 Q. Let me rephrase my question. In the past year, 4 can you estimate how much time you spent working at 5 Elliott? 6 A. Working for Elliott, approximately 50 percent 7 of the time. 8 Q. So when you say you are retired, what does that 9 mean? 10 A. Well, I guess when people retire, they change 11 their status, and that's what I did. I no longer get a 12 regular paycheck, nor do I have to show up at eight 13 o'clock or seven o'clock in the morning every day. 14 Q. Okay. So by half time, I take it you mean you 15 work on average about 20 hours a week? 16 A. I would like it to be a little bit less than 17 that, but I guess if you averaged it out and said 50 18 percent of the time, that's 20 hours a week. 19 Q. And how much of that time are you paid 120 an 20 hour, and how much are you paid 250 an hour? 21 A. 22 120. 23 Q. In the last year, most of it has been at the What kind of work do you do in the past year 24 for Elliott? 25 A. Most of it has been asbestos litigation. ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 18 1 Q. Can you be a little more specific? 2 A. In what sense? I am not sure what you are 3 after. 4 Q. Okay. Do you write documents? Do you research 5 documents? Do you talk to people? 6 A. All of the above. 7 Q. What kind of documents do you write? 8 MR. FORSBERG: I am going to object to that to 9 the extent they are prepared in the course of 10 litigation. 11 MR. RUTZICK: Okay. Are you instructing him 12 not to answer or just objecting? 13 MR. FORSBERG: I am objecting on the grounds of 14 privilege, telling him not to answer that if it's got to 15 do with litigation. 16 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: Okay. I guess it's your turn, 17 sir. 18 A. It's all got to do with litigation, so I guess 19 I really can't talk about that. 20 Q. Okay. Do you talk with other people at Elliott 21 other than attorneys? 22 MR. FORSBERG: Again I am going to object to 23 the extent that that is -- those conversations are 24 requested by the attorneys. 25 MR. RUTZICK: And are you instructing him not ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd 1 to answer? Page 19 2 MR. FORSBERG: Yes, to the extent that they are 3 requested by the attorneys, yes. 4 If you are able to answer outside of that, go 5 ahead. 6 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I talk to people at Elliott 7 about baseball games and the weather and things like 8 that in addition to what Carl is talking about. 9 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: And all of the talking to 10 people relating to your work has to dowith what 11 attorneys ask you to do? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you have a title? 14 A. I am a rotating equipment consultant. 15 Q. Okay. Looking at Exhibit D, can you tell me 16 what you understand that to be? 17 A. It's an engineering instruction, as I 18 mentioned, that the engineering department wrote to give 19 the shop information on building a number of deaerators. 20 I am not sure I can add all those numbers up, but there 21 is quite a few of them there. I guess there is over 100 22 units involved there. 23 Q. Maybe about 138? 24 A. It could be. I don't think it's quite that 25 big. But you could be right, yeah. Sixteen times eight ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 20 1 plus ten. 2 Q. Also I was aided when it said at the top 3 138 -4 A. Oh, there you go. Okay. That sounds good. 5 Q. What are the deaerating tanks? 6 A. Just what the term says. I mean, I don't know 7 what else to tell you. 8 Q. Okay. What do deaerating feed tanks do? 9 A. Their purpose is to take the air out of a 10 condensate in a boiler system, not completely, but most 11 of it. And it also provides heat for the condensate 12 before it goes back to the boiler. 13 Q. Are they part of the propulsion system on a 14 ship? 15 A. I don't know where you draw the line. But if 16 you say the boiler is part of the propulsion system, 17 then the deaerating heater would also be part of the 18 propulsion system. 19 Q. Were these 138 deaerating feed tanks built for 20 a particular shipbuilding company? 21 A. I don't think so. 22 Q. Down at the bottom where it says "Customer" -23 do you see that? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. It says, "Federal Shipbuilding & Dry Dock ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd 1 Company." Page 21 2 A. Right. 3 Q. Who are they? 4 A. They were a shipbuilder at that time in 1943. 5 Q. Okay. And were these all for them? 6 A. I don't think all of them went to them. I 7 think they were the lead yard. 8 Q. How do you know that? 9 A. I think I've seen some paperwork to indicate 10 that they all didn't end up at Federal Shipbuilding & 11 Dry Dock Company. 12 Q. Do you recall from that paperwork where they 13 did end up? 14 A. I probably can research and tell you where they 15 ended up, yes. 16 Q. As you sit here today, can you tell me? 17 A. No, I can't. 18 Q. Do you know over what period of time these 138 19 deaerating feed tanks were built? 20 A. I think over a couple-year period of time. I 21 think if you look at Exhibit F, it gives you an 22 indication of the shipping time frame. 23 Q. Looking at Exhibit F, do you infer from that 24 that they were built in 1943 and 1944? 25 A. I would say that that's when they were built, ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd 1 yes. 2 Q. Okay. Page 22 3 A. They may not have been shipped exactly on those 4 dates. I think that was the tentative date for shipment 5 of those units. And whether they got 20 units shipped 6 on May of 1944, I'm not sure that all 20 units went out 7 that month. 8 Q. Were there any other documents that you 9 remember seeing that talk about either purchases of sale 10 or sales other deaerating feed tanks to or on behalf of 11 the U.S. Navy? 12 A. Yes, I have some other documents. 13 Q. What do they say? 14 A. The same thing as whatyou see in these 15 documents. 16 Q. Are they the same 138 tanks, or are they 17 additional ones? 18 A. They are additional tanks, different sizes and 19 stuff like that. 20 Q. When did you find thosedocuments? 21 A. Well, I don't -- I don't really know. Knowing 22 that Elliott has built deaerating feed tanks for a long, 23 long time -- and I am not sure what you are referring to 24 when you said when did you find those documents. I 25 don't have documents on every single piece of equipment ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 23 1 we have built. But, you know, I have serial numbers, 2 and I know pretty much what has been built. 3 Q. Can you tell me pretty much what's been built? 4 A. A lot of deaerating feed tanks. A lot of other 5 equipment, too. I think we would be here for a long 6 time, and I can't remember everything we have built. 7 Q. Okay. Well, let's focus on deaerating feed 8 tanks. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. Can you tell me approximately how many Elliott 11 built? 12 A. For whom? The Navy? 13 Q. Let's start with the Navy. 14 A. You tell me not to guess, but I am going to 15 give you a number probably in the order of 500. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. I am not sure that's the right number, but 18 that's a guess on my part. 19 Q. That's based on your having looked at a number 20 of documents? 21 A. Right. But I didn't sit there and count them. 22 I don't remember the exact number. 23 Q. Over what period of time did those documents 24 cover? 25 A. Essentially the war years, from 1940 to 1946. ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 24 1 Q. Do you know if Elliott built any deaerating 2 tanks for the Navy after 1946? 3 A. I believe they have built a couple but not 4 many. 5 Q. Did Elliott build any deaerating tanks for 6 other customers besides the Navy? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Who did they build deaerating tanks for? 9 A. They built deaerating tanks for a lot of 10 people . 11 Q. Okay. Were these marine tanks or for other 12 purposes? 13 A. Both. 14 Q. Focusing on marine tanks, can you give me the 15 names of any of the customers for deaerating tanks? 16 A. Probably -- the only other big one that I 17 recall is the Maritime Commission. 18 Q. Was that in the same 1940 time period? 19 A. Yes, it was. 20 Q. Do you know what those ships were used for? 21 A. Cargo ships and others. I am not sure I know 22 all the categories off the top of my head. 23 Q. Did you find those documents -- strike that. 24 Your knowledge that you just are talking about, 25 that's based on documents that you have seen? ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 25 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Was it based on anything else? 3 A. I am not sure what you mean by "anything else." 4 Q. Well, it could be you saw them. It could be 5 you talked to other people, those kind of things. 6 A. I have talked to other people. Also, I worked 7 for Elliott for 40 years, so I know that they built some 8 of this equipment. 9 Q. Okay. And you started working at Elliott in 10 1960? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Were they building deaerating tanks in 1960? 13 A. They were going -- they were phasing it out at 14 that point. 15 Q. To whom did they sell deaerating tanks in the 16 1950's? 17 A. Primarily commercial land-base. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. Probably mostly utilities. 20 Q. Did they sell any marine ones in the 1950's? 21 A. A few. 22 Q. Who did they sell them to? 23 A. I don't remember. 24 Q. If you wanted to find that out, how would you 25 go about doing it? ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 26 1 A. I would sit down and go through the list 2 manually that has all the serial numbers for those 3 machines. 4 Q. Is that on microfilm or something else? 5 A. It's a manual -- it's hard copy. It's not 6 totally conclusive because it only gives names and 7 serial numbers and shop order numbers and E record 8 numbers and capacity, and that's all I have to start out 9 with. 10 Q. And are you able, do you believe, to infer 11 whether it's marine or not by the customer? 12 A. Also the information that's presented there, 13 yes. 14 Q. What other information would guide you in that 15 regard? 16 A. There is a piece of information that says that 17 it's a spray unit and the customer's name. That 18 combination tells me whether it's marine or not. 19 Q. Did your work for Elliott ever involve 20 deaerating units? 21 A. I am not quite sure how to answer that. 22 Occasionally I got questions relative to it. But in 23 later years, we only supplied some replacement parts for 24 the things and occasionally had to investigate what was 25 required. But that was the extent of it. ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 27 1 Q. What is Exhibit E to your declaration? 2 A. E is a memo from in this particular case the 3 drafting room to the purchasing department to buy a 4 bunch of reflex gage glass gaskets for a Navy order. 5 Q. And was Elliott purchasing it from Jerguson 6 Gage & Valve Company? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. What are reflex gage glass gaskets of 9 compressed asbestos sheets? 10 A. Little, tiny gaskets that go on gage glasses. 11 I don 't know how to describe it for you. They are not 12 very big. 13 Q. Okay. Did you find this, or did somebody else 14 find this document? 15 A. No. This was in that same file with the other 16 stuff . 17 Q. And -18 A. That's wrong. It was in another file. It was 19 in another E record that I found. 20 Q. And I am going to apologize in advance, but 21 what' s an E record? 22 A. Back before the mid-fifties, Elliott kept track 23 of orders with E records, and that stuff was microfilmed 24 and not complete, but there is a lot of it available. 25 Q. And what does the "E" in E record stand for? ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd 1 A. 2 Q. 3 what? Beyond me. Page 28 Okay. Are they in books or in microfilm or 4 A. Microfilm. Microfilm. 5 Q. Did you go through all the microfilm records? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did anybody? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did you go through some of the microfilm 10 records? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What were you looking for? 13 A. Well, when I had an E number or something like 14 that, I would go through the microfilm to see if that E 15 record existed. And in the case of the previous record, 16 Exhibit D , when I looked -- somewhere it turned up that 17 E Record 108139 was of interest to me because it covered 18 deaerator orders for the Navy. And when I went to that 19 E record, I found some microfilm. And you see one of 20 the pages of that microfilm. That was actually a 21 reproduction of a microfilm page. 22 Q. And did you do this as part of your work for 23 the legal department or some other purpose? 24 A. No. As part of the work for the legal 25 department. ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 29 1 Q. And about when was that? I may have asked. 2 And if so, I apologize. 3 A. I don't really remember when I found this, but 4 it was several years ago. 5 Q. Now, in your declaration you talk about Navy 6 specification. Is that true? 7 A. That's true. 8 Q. Can you give me the names or numbers of the 9 specifications? 10 A. The ones that are attached? 11 Q. Well, all right. Let's start with that. Which 12 of these documents do you view as Navy specification? 13 A. These are purchase documents. They are part of 14 the specifications for a purchase of Navy equipment. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. Equipment for the Navy. 17 Q. Can you identify which exhibits you are talking 18 about? 19 A. Both of them. Depends -- the Navy has a whole 20 raft of -- when you deal with the Navy for an order, you 21 get a whole raft of documents that are general, and then 22 they go to milispecs and the whole bit, design data, and 23 that all comes from the Navy. 24 Q. All right. 25 A. A Navy order generally, the pile of paper is -- ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 30 1 I don' t know -- two- or three-foot thick. 2 Q. Are all those specifications somewhere in the 3 Elliott records? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Where are they? 6 A. I have no idea. A lot of them disappear or get 7 superseded. And, you know, the ones that were available 8 in the forties are long gone for the most part. 9 Q. How do you know they were there? 10 A. Because they are referred to in the documents. 11 If you look at Exhibit D, on Exhibit D you can see that 12 there is a reference to, in that first paragraph, it 13 says, "General specifications for machinery, Subsection 14 S1 -2 and S1-4." That's Navy information. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. I am sure that it existed in 1942 or -3 when 17 they were working on this stuff, maybe even a little bit 18 before that. I don't know. 19 Q. Do you know what it said? 20 A. No, I don't know exactly what it said. 21 Q. And I take it you have never seen it? 22 A. Not that I know of, no. 23 Q. Let's just take that, since we are talking 24 about it. Have you seen any subsequent iterations of 25 those subsections? ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd 1 A. Not that I recall. Page 31 2 Q. In the 40 years you worked for Elliott, did you 3 ever see them? 4 A. It's possible. 5 Q. As you sit here today, can you think of any? 6 A. I have seen a lot of specifications, and I 7 wouldn't hazard to guess on the date and the particular 8 one that I seen. I wouldn't even -- my memory is not 9 that good. 10 Q. Have you ever heard the term "performance 11 specification"? 12 A. Vaguely, yeah. 13 Q. Do you know what that term means? 14 A. Yeah, I have got an idea what it means. 15 Q. What do you understand it to mean? 16 A. It means that the Navy gave us a set of specs 17 to do a certain job and the performance would be listed, 18 and that 's what they expected the machine or the vessel 19 to do. 20 Q. And would you contrast performance 21 specifications with some other kinds of specifications? 22 A. Yeah. The stuff that is in Exhibit B is more 23 general. 24 Q. Okay. I am turning to Exhibit B. When you say 25 it's more general, what do you mean? ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 32 1 A. Well, it lists everything that you need to deal 2 with the Navy. Or not everything, but at least sort of 3 what I would consider the foundation for dealing with 4 the Navy. And it doesn't make any difference if you 5 were building a ship or building a deaerator heater. 6 This material applied. So it would be sort of the 7 foundation, and then you would have to work up to the 8 various pieces that go in the house, if you may. 9 Q. This one is dated July 1, 1954. Is that 10 correct? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. By that time, am I rightthat Elliott was not 13 making deaerators for the Navy? 14 A. I think that they may have made one in 1954, 15 but, yes, essentially we were not making deaerators for 16 the Navy. 17 Q. And - 18 A. Or Elliott was not makingdeaerators for the 19 Navy. 20 Q. Are you able to tell me in whatway the July 21 1954 version differed from the onebefore that? 22 A. No, I can't. 23 Q. Do you know for a fact there was one before 24 that? 25 A. No, I don't. ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd 1 Q. 2 they? Page 33 Now, deaerators contained asbestos, didn't 3 A. They had some asbestos packing, yes. 4 Q. What was the purpose of the asbestos packing? 5 A. To prevent leakage of water or steam. 6 Q. Are you aware of the specification that 7 required that the packing be asbestos? 8 A. I can't point you to a specification, no. 9 Q. Did deaerators have any other asbestos in them 10 besides packing and gaskets? 11 A. Not that I am aware of. 12 Q. To Elliott's knowledge, did deaerators ever 13 have asbestos insulation outside of them? 14 MR. FORSBERG: Object to the form. Foundation. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't know what they put on the 16 outside. If you read the spec here, on Spec C -17 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: Bear with me, sir, and I will 18 turn to it. You are talking about Exhibit C? 19 A. Right. Page 2, down towards the bottom, about 20 the fifth box up from the bottom, it says Steam, 100 to 21 300 degrees. And it says for machinery, you use spec -22 milispec F-15091. And if you look up at the top of the 23 page, it says that that spec is for felt, insulating, 24 asbestos. 25 Q. Okay. ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 34 1 A. So if you were dealing with the Navy, you 2 supplied, you know, the insulation for a deaerator, I 3 guess that's what you would use. 4 Q. Okay. This is in December of '51. Is that 5 right? 6 A. That's what it says, yes. 7 Q. What would you use before December of '51? 8 A. I am not positive right now for the Navy. 9 Q. Did the deaerators get hot? 10 A. They normally operated at a temperature of 200 11 to 250 degrees. 12 Q. So you would get burned if you touched one when 13 it was in operation? 14 A. Probably. 15 Q. Was Elliott or do you know whether Elliott was 16 pretty sure that something that got over 200 degrees 17 would probably be insulated? 18 MR. FORSBERG: Object to the form. Foundation. 19 THE WITNESS: It's probable that it was 20 insulated, yes. But I am not sure it had to be asbestos 21 because the temperature was not that high. 22 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: What would be the kinds of 23 other insulation? 24 A. Fiberglass, Rockwell. 25 Q. What were the deaerators that you saw that were ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 35 1 land-based insulated with, if anything? 2 A. None of them were, to my knowledge, ever 3 shipped with insulation. Whatever the customer put on 4 was what he deemed necessary. 5 Q. Did Elliott ever go out and look at any of its 6 deaerators in operation? 7 A. I am sure they did. 8 Q. Why would they do that? 9 A. For a number of reasons. One would be to talk 10 to customers and to see the insulation. Number two is 11 if they had some need or some question about how it was 12 operating or if they wanted the unit tested. There is a 13 number of reasons why Elliott might go out and look at a 14 unit. 15 Q. Did you yourself ever look at a deaerator in 16 operation? 17 A. No, I didn't. 18 Q. Why not? Was it not yourjob? 19 A. I didn't because I never -- it just never, you 20 know, was necessary for me to do it. It wasn't -- I had 21 other things to do. 22 Q. Did your work ever put you aboard a Navy ship? 23 A. No, it didn't. 24 Q. Did your work put you aboard any ship of any 25 sort? ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 36 1 A. No, it didn't. 2 Q. Were there Elliott employees whose work did put 3 them aboard ship? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What division or what unit would they have 6 worked at? 7 A. Some of them worked for me, and some of them 8 worked for the engineering department. 9 Q. Okay. The ones who worked for you, what did 10 they do? 11 A. They were service engineers. 12 Q. And I can probably guess somewhat from the 13 name, but can you expand on what a service engineer did? 14 A. Well, a service engineer would very often go on 15 the trial runs if it was a requirement. Or if the 16 customer had some question about the thing, they would 17 go out and assist the customer in looking at the unit or 18 talking about the unit or whatever the question was. 19 Q. And would trial runs include -- well, strike 20 that. 21 When you were working there, you all didn't do 22 marine work. Is that correct? 23 A. Pardon? Would you repeat that. 24 Q. When you were there from '60 on, did Elliott do 25 marine work? ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 37 1 MR. FORSBERG: Object to the form. 2 I'm sorry. I am not objecting to the last one. 3 Sorry. You rephrased it. 4 THE WITNESS: I am not sure what you mean, 5 yeah, about marine work. Yes, we did service, you know, 6 our equipment. 7 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: Okay. That included going 8 aboard ship? 9 A. Yeah, when it was necessary to, yes. 10 Q. What would be an example of when it would be 11 necessary? 12 A. When there was a question about the operation 13 of a machine or we had to do an overhaul of a machine or 14 something like that. 15 Q. So when would Elliott do overhauls on marine 16 equipment? 17 A. Well, we would assist the yard in doing it. 18 Very often the yard would hire a service engineer to 19 assist them in, you know, taking the clearances and 20 looking at the machine for what condition it was in, 21 assessing the condition of the unit. 22 Q. So the period after 1960, from time to time did 23 people work with you and go to Navy shipyards? 24 A. Well, keep in mind that you are saying 1960 and 25 beyond. I was not in the service group in 1960 in that ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 38 1 particular area. I was more in the applications side. 2 Q. Okay. When did you get into the service area? 3 A. In the mid -- '70, 1972, really. 4 Q. How about in the 1972 period, did people under 5 your supervision go to Navy shipyards? 6 A. Yes, they did. 7 Q. Would they go -- are you familiar with a 8 shipyard named Puget Sound Naval Shipyard? 9 A. I am aware of it. I am not aware if we ever 10 sent anybody there or not. 11 Q. Which shipyards are you aware that you sent 12 people to? 13 A. Really, the ones I probably recall are the ones 14 around New York Harbor and like -- I got tongue-tied - 15 Brooklyn Navy Shipyard and maybe Long Beach. That's the 16 two I can think of where we probably serviced the 17 equipment. I am not sure I know all of the places that 18 we went. 19 Q. And so that I am clear, the Long Beach one is 20 the one in California? 21 A. Yes, it is. 22 Q. Did Elliott supply asbestos insulation in 23 connection with any of the machinery it made and sold? 24 MR. FORSBERG: Object to the form. 25 THE WITNESS: I am trying to understand. Are ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 39 1 we now talking about Navy stuff, or what are we talking 2 about? Everything? 3 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: Anything, yeah. 4 A. On occasion they did supply some machinery with 5 asbestos insulation, yes. 6 Q. What occasions were those? 7 A. When the customer required it. 8 Q. And how would you know if a customer required 9 it? 10 A. It would be part of the purchase order. 11 Q. Do you have any understanding as to why some 12 customers would require it? 13 MR. FORSBERG: Object to the form. Foundation. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know. It was probably 15 the material to use in the fifties and sixties and 16 before that, perhaps. 17 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: How would Elliott go about 18 supplying insulation on its machinery? 19 A. Now you are talking about the big picture with 20 everything, all kinds of insulation? We didn't always 21 use asbestos insulation. Don't get me wrong. 22 Q. Okay. Let me do it this way. When did Elliott 23 use asbestos insulation? 24 MR. FORSBERG: Asked and answered. 25 THE WITNESS: Primarily on high-temperature ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd 1 service. Page 40 2 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: And how do you define high- 3 temperature service? 4 A. Probably above 750 degrees. 5 Q. What machinery made by Elliott involved high- 6 temperature service? 7 A. Steam turbines. 8 Q. Say it again, please. 9 A. Steam turbines. 10 Q. In general, to whom did Elliott supply steam 11 turbines? 12 MR. FORSBERG: Object to the form. 13 THE WITNESS: Utilities, refineries, chemical 14 plants, steel mills. I don't know. Probably a few 15 more. 16 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: For those steam turbines, 17 would they typically also supply asbestos insulation? 18 MR. FORSBERG: Asked and answered. 19 THE WITNESS: Not really. It depends on the 20 job. 21 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: Would you give me some 22 examples of jobs where it would occur. 23 A. I told you. High temperature. 24 Q. I have already been there. All right. Let me 25 try this again. On the high-temperature jobs, would ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 41 1 Elliott always supply the asbestos insulation or 2 sometimes? 3 MR. FORSBERG: Asked and answered. He told you 4 when it was requested on the purchase orders. 5 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: Go ahead, sir. 6 A. Sometimes. 7 Q. Would Elliott ever encourage people to ask them 8 to provide insulation, or was it something they didn't 9 want or something else entirely? 10 MR. FORSBERG: Object to the form. Foundation. 11 Compound. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't -- I don't think that 13 Elliott ever went out and solicited the business on the 14 basis of trying to get the insulation. They wanted to 15 get the turbine ordered. They didn't want to get the 16 insulation ordered. 17 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: Did they have arrangements 18 with any insulation manufacturer to provide that 19 insulation? 20 A. Johns Manville when it was asbestos. 21 Q. When did that arrangement begin, if you know? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. When is the earliest you know it existed? 24 A. 1940's. 25 Q. And how do you knowthat? ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 42 1 A. Because I've seen requisitions to Johns 2 Manville or for Johns Manville, requisitions from the 3 engineering department to the purchasing department to 4 purchase Johns Manville insulation. 5 Q. Do you know what type of Johns Manville 6 insulation was being purchased? 7 A. Yes. It was primarily block, Super X block 8 insulation. 9 Q. Do you know what the heat levels appropriate 10 for Super X insulation were? 11 A. I don't recall off the top of my head, no. 12 Q. Where would the - 13 MR. FORSBERG: Bill, we are getting pretty far 14 afield right now from the purpose of this deposition. 15 If you are going to take this guy on a fact witness 16 deposition for going -- or for working at the site, 17 that's one thing. But my understanding is you are 18 taking his deposition now as it pertains to the 19 jurisdictional matter in this case. If you want to note 20 him up for something else, you can go ahead and do that. 21 Otherwise, what I will do if you keep going along this 22 line is he won't be available again for deposition, if 23 you want to take this broad of a deposition. 24 MR. RUTZICK: Let me think about that. 25 Q. Let me ask you this, sir. ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 43 1 A. Go ahead. 2 Q. Did Elliott ever provide asbestos-containing 3 insulation for application to equipment aboard -4 installed aboard any marine vessel? 5 A. I don't believe so. 6 Q. Did you ever talk to anybody on that subject 7 who worked at Elliott during the 1940's? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Who did you talk to? 10 A. Several engineers. 11 Q. Would you give me their names, please. 12 A. I can't remember all of them. The subject, you 13 know -- the one that I can think of is Frank Morrison. 14 Q. And how does Mr. Morrison spell his last name? 15 A. 16 Q. And when did you talk to him about the subject? 17 A. Probably sometime in the last 15 years, several 18 times perhaps. 19 Q. What brought that subject to mind? 20 A. He was my deaerator heater expert. 21 Q. Was this in connection with litigation or 22 something else? 23 A. In connection with litigation. 24 Q. So has the deaerator -- have you been involved 25 in deaerator litigation for the past 15 years? S i 0 i i i H1 Cfl l 0 i 3 ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd 1 A. Probably. Page 44 2 Q. And when did Mr. Morrison start working at 3 Elliott? 4 A. I really don't know the answer to that. A long 5 time ago. 6 Q. Well, a long time might be different to 7 different people. Could you put a decade on it? 8 A. I am guessing -- 9 MR. FORSBERG: Asked and answered, then, with 10 he didn't know. 11 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: Go ahead, sir. 12 A. I think it's probably the early forties. 13 Q. And did he work on deaerators in the 1940's ? 14 A. Yes, he did. 15 Q. What did he tell you? 16 A. He told me that we didn't supply insulation 17 with deaerators. 18 Q. Was there any other Elliott equipment used for 19 marine purposes? 20 A. General or Navy? 21 Q. General. 22 A. General, I think that there are some other 23 equipment that was served for the marine service. I 24 think that maybe some condensers, perhaps some 25 strainers , perhaps some -- built a few pumps, but I am ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 45 1 not sure if any of those were ever built for marine 2 service. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. We are talking a long time ago. We are talking 5 all stuff that Elliott hasn't built for 40 years. 6 Q. Okay. 7 MR. FORSBERG: Bill, we have been going for 8 about an hour. If you find a spot in here to break - 9 also, how long do you think you will be going? 10 MR. RUTZICK: I would anticipate maybe another 11 half hour. And this would be as good a time for a break 12 as any. 13 MR. FORSBERG: All right, Bill. Thanks. 14 The only reason I ask about the timing, I 15 didn't want to cut it short, but out here it is around 16 lunchtime. And if it was going to be a lot longer, I 17 would say we take a break. But, otherwise, we will try 18 to finish up, then. 19 MR. RUTZICK: A half hour is a guess both ways. 20 MR. FORSBERG: I understand. 21 MR. RUTZICK: But it's, I guess, an educated 22 guess. 23 MR. FORSBERG: We appreciate that. 24 (Recess taken from 12:14 p.m. to 12:23 p.m.) 25 MR. RUTZICK: Why don't we go back on the ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 46 1 record. 2 Q. Sir, could you turn to Paragraph 7 of your 3 declaration. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. The first paragraph ofthat says, "At no time 6 has Elliott ever manufactured asbestos-containing 7 insulation or asbestos-containing components for its 8 equipment." Do you see that? 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 Q. Is it true thatElliott hadsold asbestos11 containing insulation and asbestos-containing components 12 for its equipment? 13 MR. FORSBERG: Object to the form. 14 THE WITNESS: I am not sure I understand the 15 term "sold." You are referring to sold as part of a 16 package? Like -17 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: Well, it would be transferring 18 ownership in return for money. 19 A. Okay. But if it was part of a unit that you 20 built, then it would be -- the answer is yes, we got 21 paid for a steam turbine that had insulation on it. 22 Q. And when wouldn't it have been true? 23 A. I would say that it wouldn't be true if you 24 sold insulation as just an insulation package. 25 Q. You mean without any equipment? ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 47 1 A. Without any equipment. 2 Q. And am I right that Elliott has sold asbestos3 containing components for its equipment? 4 MR. FORSBERG: Object to the form. 5 THE WITNESS: And I would say the components 6 occasionally were sold as parts -- as a separate item, 7 yes. 8 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: And what were some of the 9 machineries in which asbestos-containing components were 10 sold? 11 A. Steam turbines. 12 Q. Anything else? 13 A. Perhaps some of the otherequipment, yes. 14 Q. How about the deaerators? 15 A. Yes, they would also -- that would fall in that 16 category, yes. 17 Q. Now, let me draw your attention to Paragraph 8 18 in your declaration. Could you read it to yourself, 19 please. Tell me when you have had a chance to read it. 20 A. Okay. I've read it. 21 Q. Can you identify the specification by number or 22 title that you are referring to in Paragraph 8? 23 A. Not off the top of my head, no. 24 Q. Have you ever seen them? 25 A. I've seen documents, yes. It has to do with ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 48 1 the manuals, yes. 2 Q. All right. Is a manual a specification? 3 A. It could be. 4 Q. Okay. Could you explain to me when a manual 5 could be a specification and, conversely, when it isn't 6 a specification? 7 A. I am not sure I could define that real good in 8 words. 9 Q. Can you take a crack? 10 A. Informational manuals, I think of Exhibit B as 11 being an informational -- part of an informational 12 manual. And the part that Elliott was responsible for 13 delivering with its equipment is what would come about 14 as a result of what was stated in that general 15 specification. 16 Q. Okay. Well, can you point me to what you are 17 referring to in Exhibit B? 18 A. I don't really see it in there at the moment, 19 no, in this particular spec, no. 20 Q. What specs - 21 A. I know that there were specs that required 22 Elliott to provide manuals with their equipment. 23 Q. All right. When did you last see those specs? 24 A. I think that I may have seen some of those in 25 the last few days. ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 49 1 Q. Are you able to give me a hint as to how I 2 could find them? 3 A. I assume they are on the Internet. 4 Q. I think there are a lot of things on the 5 Internet. Can you be a little more specific? 6 A. No, I can't. 7 Q. Are you serious? 8 A. I am very serious, because I am not that good 9 at finding things on the Internet myself. 10 Q. But you found something. Was it just by luck 11 that you found it, or did somebody - 12 A. No, I did not see it on the Internet. I seen 13 it in the Elliott collection of stuff. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. But I don't know how to tell you. I don't know 16 what the number is off the top of my head. 17 Q. Describe what you saw as best you can. 18 A. Elliott -- what I am saying is that there is a 19 milispec that tells Elliott or others, not only Elliott, 20 but anybody, how to put together a manual for a piece of 21 equipment. It would tell you the paragraphs or chapters 22 that are required and how to write the thing and the 23 level that you are supposed to write the thing for and 24 all that sort of stuff. 25 Q. And your testimony is you have seen it in the ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 50 1 past two days? 2 A. I have seen some, yeah. And I have seen them 3 long before that, too. 4 Q. When were they dated? 5 A. I don't remember the dates on them. 6 Q. What period of time did they cover? 7 A. Well, I think that the time period that I am 8 most familiar with was probably the seventies and 9 eighties . But what the date was on the document, I am 10 not sure . 11 Q. All right. Were there any in the forties that 12 you saw? 13 A. Not that I recall, no. 14 Q. Were there any in the fifties that you saw ? 15 A. Not that I recall. 16 Q. Could you look at Paragraph 6 of your 17 declaration. 18 A. Which paragraph? 19 Q. Paragraph 6. 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. Tell me when you have had a chance to read it. 22 A. Okay. I read it. 23 Q. If I were to ask you how you know in 1947 that 24 all equipment constructed and delivered to the U.S. Navy 25 for installation aboard a ship was inspected by U.S . ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 51 1 Navy personnel, what would your knowledge of that be? 2 A. The specifications I have seen in the documents 3 you see, like the engineering instructions that are part 4 of Exhibit D, indicate that this material had to be 5 inspected by the Navy. 6 Q. And, again, here, it will just make it easier 7 for me. I have got Exhibit D here. 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. Can you point me to where we are talking about? 10 A. Okay. I don't see it. I gave you the wrong 11 document. You really need to go back to Document F. 12 Q. F? 13 A. Yeah. In the bottom of Document F, it says 14 "Navy inspection." 15 Q. Bear with me a moment, sir. 16 A. It's down towards the bottom of the page. 17 Q. I apologize, sir. I am not seeing it yet. Can 18 you kind of guide me? 19 A. There is a big blank section in Exhibit F, and 20 then there is, at the bottom of that blank section, sort 21 of it says, tests, inspections, and reports, Navy 22 inspection. 23 Q. Ah. Okay. I see that. Now, this is -- is 24 that telling you the inspection took place? 25 A. No, it doesn't tell me the inspection took ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd 1 place. But it tells me it will take place. Page 52 2 Q. Okay. And here I am just trying to work this 3 out. What if they are real busy? Do you think is it 4 possible they won't inspect it? Are you sure they will? 5 MR. FORSBERG: Object to the form. 6 THE WITNESS: I am sure they will. 7 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: That's based on these two 8 words on this Exhibit F? 9 A. Well, and my experience with the Navy. 10 Q. All right. Your experience with the Navy I 11 consent did not include the 1940's. Is that true? 12 A. That is true. I was not there in 1940. 13 Q. Right. When did your experience with the Navy 14 begin? 15 A. My experience with the Navy began really in the 16 sevent ies. 17 Q. Have you ever heard of something called Mill 18 Standard 129? 19 A. Yes, I have. 20 Q. What is that? 21 A. That's a packaging standard. That was also one 22 of the things I looked at yesterday. 23 Q. And you looked at, you told me, some portions 24 of Mr. Martin's deposition. 25 A. Yeah, that's correct. ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 53 1 Q. Were those portions that were attached to the 2 Lehman deposition? 3 A. I believe that's correct. 4 Q. About six or seven pages? 5 A. Yes, that's a good number. 6 Q. And what did Mr. Martin say on the subject of 7 Mill Standard 129? 8 A. He said there was a lot of give and take on the 9 things but it was sort of their guideline. 10 Q. And do you remember him being asked if Mill 11 Standard 129 would prevent somebody from putting 12 wordings on the packaging of material? 13 A. Something to that nature, yes. 14 Q. Do you remember him saying that he didn't think 15 it would prohibit it? 16 A. He may have said that, yes. 17 Q. Do you disagree with that, or do you agree with 18 that, or you just don't know? 19 A. I don't remember exactly his words. 20 Q. Okay. Why were you reading it? 21 A. Because I was asked to. 22 Q. Okay. I guess that's a safe answer. 23 What did you glean from that? 24 A. Not much. 25 Q. Do you agree, sir, that manufacturers of ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 54 1 asbestos -containing products put warnings concerning 2 asbestos on their products that were sent to the Navy 3 without asking the Navy's permission? 4 MR. FORSBERG: Wait one second. Could you read 5 the question back? I'm sorry. 6 (Record read.) 7 MR. FORSBERG: Object to the form. Foundation. 8 Go ahead . 9 THE WITNESS: I am not aware of that. 10 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: Okay. Do you remember reading 11 Mr. Lehman's deposition? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you remember that subject coming up? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. So were you aware of it yesterday when 16 you read it? 17 MR. FORSBERG: Object to the form. 18 THE WITNESS: I mean, was I aware of what? 19 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: Okay. You remember in the 20 Lehman deposition there was some testimony about 21 manufacturers of asbestos-containing products being able 22 to put warnings on their products and send them to the 23 Navy? 24 A. 25 Q. Yes, I remember some conversation on that, yes. Okay. And do you remember that Admiral Lehman ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 55 1 agreed that that's the way it was? 2 MR. FORSBERG: Object to the form. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't think he agreed that they 4 could put something on and get it on a ship, no, 5 regarding asbestos. 6 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: All right. Let me do it this 7 way. 8 Let's go off the record a moment. 9 (A discussion was held off the record.) 10 (Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit No. 2 was marked 11 for identification.) 12 MR. FORSBERG: I will just say for the record 13 it's kind of hard to read this document. He may be able 14 to get through it. The copy we have isn't the best one. 15 And when I give it to the witness, you want me 16 to have him read the whole thing or just read Pages 32 17 through 35? 18 MR. RUTZICK: Why don't you give it to him, and 19 I will kind of try to direct him. 20 MR. FORSBERG: Okay. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. I have the document. 22 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: Sir, what I would like you to 23 do -- and, actually, one of the worst parts concerning 24 the legibility are the numbers at the bottom. 25 MR. FORSBERG: That's right. The pages you ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd 1 mean? Page 56 2 MR. RUTZICK: Yeah. 3 MR. FORSBERG: Yeah, I agree with that. 4 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: Ifyou wouldturn to what is, 5 in fact, 32 but the 3 is kind of pushed. Itmight look 6 like a 22. But if you would turn to 32, and we will 7 kind of orient ourselves that we have the same document. 8 A. Okay. I think I am at 32. 9 Q. All right. And up at the top, it will say, "In 10 some human beings, I believe I do." 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. Here is what I would like you to do. I would 13 like you to read from the question about two-thirds of 14 the way down which starts, "In all of these documents." 15 Do you see that? 16 A. Yes, I do. 17 Q. And I would like you to read from that to the 18 end of that page and then through the end of Page 33. 19 And I would also like you to read the top of page 35 20 simply for purposes of understanding what the words on 21 the caution label were. 22 So could you do that for me, please. And tell 23 me, after you have read it, tell me if you are able to 24 make it out, first, I guess, and then we will go 25 further. ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 57 1 A. Okay. 2 Okay. I think I have read it, and I think I 3 have pretty well deciphered the words. 4 Q. All right. Do you remember Admiral Lehman 5 being asked about these same sections? 6 A. Yes, vaguely, yes. 7 Q. Now, had you ever heard of a company called 8 Eagle- Picher? 9 A. I may have. It's not a familiar name, no. 10 Q. Do you see where the gentleman who testified, 11 whose name is at the beginning, is Bockstahler -- it's 12 on the first page. 13 A. Oh, okay. 14 Q. Do you see where he testified at trial that it 15 wasn't necessary for Eagle-Picher to get Navy approval 16 before putting the warning on those asbestos products? 17 MR. FORSBERG: Object to the form. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. I guess that's what this 19 document says, yeah. 20 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: Do you have any reason to 21 disagree with that? 22 MR. FORSBERG: Object to the form. Foundation. 23 THE WITNESS: I don't know what the point is. 24 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: Do you have any reason to 25 disagree , whether or not you understand the point? ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 58 1 MR. FORSBERG: Object to the form. Foundation. 2 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: Do you have any facts that 3 lead you to think that Mr. Bockstahler is not telling 4 the truth? 5 A. No, I don't. 6 MR. FORSBERG: Same objections. 7 Q. BY MR. RUTZICK: You may have answered, and it 8 was swallowed up. Could you answer it again. 9 A. I am not aware of what -- I can see what he is 10 testifying to. I have no idea of whether he's telling 11 the truth or not. 12 Q. Okay. Do you have any facts that lead you to 13 believe that he's not telling the truth? 14 MR. FORSBERG: Asked and answered. 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 MR. RUTZICK: Bear with me just a moment, 17 please. 18 I don't have any other questions, sir. Thank 19 you for your time. Other people may. 20 MS. HABECK: Anyone on the phone have 21 questions? Codefendants? 22 MR. FORSBERG: Are the codefendants still on 23 the line? 24 MR. ODOM: This is Jeff Odom of Williams, 25 Kastner & Gibbs. I have no questions. ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd 1 MS. HABECK: Nancy? Page 59 2 MS. LE: This is Nancy Le. I don't have any 3 questions, either. 4 MS. HABECK: Anyone else? 5 MS. EDUMNDSON : This is Ms. Edmundson. I don't 6 have any questions. 7 MR. FORSBERG: All right. Thank you, guys. 8 Thanks, Bill, if that' s it. 9 MR. RUTZICK: That's it. I take it you don't 10 have any? 11 MR. FORSBERG: No. 12 MS. HABECK: Thank you. 13 MR. RUTZICK: Before we hang up, sir, do you 14 want to read this? 15 THE WITNESS: I was going to say that. Read 16 and sign, yes, please. 17 MR. RUTZICK: Okay. Again, sir, you can send 18 me a bill either directly or through the lawyers for 19 your time. 20 MR. FORSBERG: Thanks very much, Bill. 21 (Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m., the deposition was 22 concluded, and signature was not waived.) 23 24 25 ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd Page 60 1 CERT I F I CATE 2 COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA ) ) SS.: 3 COUNTY OF ALLEGHENY ) 4 I, Dan Robbins, a Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, do hereby certify that the 5 witness, ROSS ARTHUR HACKEL, was by me first duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 6 the truth; that the foregoing deposition was taken at the time and place stated herein; and that the said 7 deposition was recorded stenographically by me and then reduced to typewriting by me and constitutes a true 8 record of the testimony given by said witness, all to the best of my skill and ability. 9 I further certify that the inspection, reading, and 10 signing of said deposition were not waived by counsel for the respective parties and by the witness and if 11 after 30 days the transcript has not been signed by said witness, that the witness received notification and has 12 failed to respond, the deposition may then be used as though signed. 13 I further certify that I am not a relative or 14 employee of either counsel and that I am in no way interested, directly or indirectly, in this action. 15 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and 16 affixed my seal of office at Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on this 25th day of August, 2005. 17 18 19 DAN ROBBINS, Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania 20 21 22 23 24 25 ACBA SERVICES, INC. (412) 261-5588 69753a03-e9af-43e7-8b79-981f9e5cb8cd