Document vyaNB4kMxV1Z1e0R3y09RN0QE
1
1 SUPERIOR COURT OP NEW JERSEY
2 LAW DIVISION: MIDDLESEX COUNTY
3 DOCKET NO. W000026087
4 GEORGE M. BADE, SR., and
5 ROSE BADE, his wife?
6 OSCAR HUBER and PATRICIA HUBER,
7 his wife? ANDREW KREBS and
8 ELIZABETH KREBS, his wife?
DEPOSITION UNDER
9 MAT MATHES and MARY MATHES,
ORAL EXAMINATION
10 his wife? JOSEPH PIETRAS and
OP
11 BLANCHE PIETRAS, his wife?
MATTHEW W, SWETONIC
12 JOSEPH ROLANDS and RUTH ROLANDS,
13 his wife; RONALD S. RESZLER and
14 RORY RESZLER, his wife? WILLIAM T.
15 ROLANDS and MARY ROLANDS, his wife;
16 EDWARD E, TERMYNA, SR,, and
17 FLORENCE TERMYNA, his wife; WARREN J.
18 TUMLER and VERONICA TOMLER, his wife,
19 *
Plaintiffs
20
21 vs
22
23 ARMSTRONG WORLD INDUSTRIES, INC,, formerly
24 known as ARMSTRONG CORK COMPANY, et al..
25 Defendants
Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644
2 1 TRANSCRIPT of the deposition of the witness, 2 called for Oral Examination in the above-captioned 3 matter, said deposition being taken pursuant to 4 Superior Court Rules of Practice and Procedure by and 5 before DIANA L. R. SENATORE, a Notary Public and 6 Certified Shorthand Reporter, at the Offices of HILL 7 and KNOWLTON, INC,, 420 Lexington Avenue, New York, New 3 York, on Tuesday, June 7, 1988, commencing at 9 approximately 10:15 in the forenoon. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 BRODY & GEISER 21 CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS 22 170 Broadway 23 New York, New York 10038 24 (212) 732-0644 25 JOB # 8060710
Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644
1 APPEARANCES:
2 WILENTZ, GOLDMAN & SPITZER, ESQS.
3 136 Church Street
4 New York, New York 10007
5 BY: CHRISTOPHER M. PLACITELLA, ESQ.
6 Attorneys for Plaintiffs
7
8 DAVIS & GILBERT, ESQS.
9 850 Third Avenue
XO New York, New York 10022
11 BY: MARIBEL FIGOEREDO, ESQ.
12 Attorneys for Hill & Knowlton, Inc.
-
13
14 MC CARTER & ENGLISH, ESQS.
15 Four Gateway Center
16 100 Mulberry Street
17 Newark, New Jersey 07102-4096
18 BY: KEVIN J. CONNELL, ESQ.
19 Attorneys for the Wellington Defendants
20
21 GOLDEN, LINTNSR, ROTHSCHILD, SPAGNOLA & DIFAZIO, ESQS.
22 . 1011 Route 22 West, Box 897
23 Somerville, New Jersey 08876
24 BY: E. RICHARD BOYLAN, ESQ.
25 Attorneys for Defendant Eagle Picher
Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644
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1 WATERS, MC PHERSON, MC NEILL & FITZPATRICK, ESQS.
2 400 Plaza Drive
3 Secaucus, New Jersey 07094
4 BY: CALVIN A. LEE, ESQ.
5 Attorneys for Defendant Anchor Packing, Inc.
6
7 BUDD, LARNER, GROSS, PICILLO, ROSENBAUM, GREENBERG &
8 SADE, ESQS.
.
9 150 JFK Parkway
10 Short Hills, New Jersey 07078
11 BY: JOHN J. CATINO, ESQ.
12 Attorneys for Defendant Combustion Engineering, Inc.
13
14
15
15
ALSO
PRESENT:
17
18 NESS, MOTLEY, LOADHOLD, RICHARDSON & POOLE, ESQS.
19 333 Westminser Mall
20 Providence, Rhode Island 02903
21 BY: JOHN J. MC CONNELL, JR., ESQ.
22
23
24
25
Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644
1 INDEX 2 3 WITNESS NAME 4 5 MATTHEW M. SWETONIC 6 7 Direct by Mr. Placitella 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
PAGE NO.
7 t
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1 EXHIBITS
2
3 EXHIBIT NO
DESCRIPTION
PAGE NO.
4
5 P-1
Transcript of a presentation
6 given to the Asbestos Textile
7 Institute on 6/7/73 by M. Swetonic 40
8
9 P-2
Document entitled "What you
10 should know about asbestos and
11 health."
44
12
13 P-3 14
Document entitled "Recommended work practices, fabrication and use
15
of Asbestos Paper Products
44
16
17 P-4
Letter dated June 10, 1987
79
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 MATTHEW M. SWE TONIC,
2 88 Aldridge Road, Chappaqua, New York,
3 10514, called as a witness, having been
4 first duly sworn according to law,
5 testifies as follows:
6 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PLACITELLA:
/
7 Q Good morning Mr. Swetonic, my name is
8 Chris Placitella.
9A
Good morning.
10 Q I'm with the law firm of Wilentz, Goldman
11 & Spitzer, and I represent certain plaintiffs in an
12 asbestos personal injury case, of which Hill and
.
13 Knowlton is not a party.
14 A Oh-huh.
15 Q We are here today for the purpose of
16 taking your deposition to determine what knowledge you
17 have concerning some of the facts and circumstances
18 involved in these cases. Have you ever had your
19 deposition taken before?
20 A No*
21 Q I'm going to ask you some questions which
22 I ask that you answer to the best of your ability. If _
23 for some reason you don't understand a question, please
24 tell me that and I'll attempt to rephrase it. If you
25 answer it I'll assume you understood it. Do you
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understand that?
A Yes.
Q Okay. I also ask that you keep your answers to my questions verbal# as the court reporter
can't take down a nod of the head or a shrug of the
shoulders# okay?
A Pine.
Q If during the course of the deposition
your attorney should object to a question that I ask#
please don't answer it until such time as we have the
opportunity to discuss what we should have learned a
long time ago in law school# probably what we should
not have forgot# and she tells you whether you can
answer the question or not*
A - I understand*
Q Give me the benefit of your education*
A Bachelor's Degree inWriting from the University
of Pittsburgh* Master's Degree in Journalism from
Columbia University*
Q When did you receive the Master's?
A 1965*
Q You currently work for Hill and Knowlton?
is that correct?
A That is correct*
Q Did you hold any job prior to your getting
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1 your Master's Degree?
2A
For about six months I was a reporter for the
3 Easton Express in Easton# Pennsylvania? daily
4 newspaper.
.
5 Q How old are you today?
6 A Today?
7 Q Yes.
8 A Forty-five.
9 Q When you finished your Master's Degree in
10 1965, what was the first job you had after that?
11 A
Johns-Manville Corporation*
12
Q What did you do for them?
*
13 A Initially Xstarted out asan assistant editor
14 on their company magazine*
15 Q How long did you have that job?
16 A
Roughly to 1967, when I then was named editor of
17 that publication.
18 Q What was the name of the publication?
19 A
I knew you were going to ask that* I don't
20 remember.
21 Q And as editor what were your basic
22 responsibilities?
t
23 A
Just basically to put out this magazine, which
24 primarily talked about what employees were doing in the
25 company, occasional features on the, some of the new
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1 products that they were developing, that sort of thing, 2 Q Okay.
3A
For example, their insulations were used in a
4 lot of spacecraft so we would do stories on that
5 practically every month, or however many times a year
6 it came out.
7 Q But you don't remember the magazine name,
8 though?
9A
No, I really don't.
10 Q Did the magazine ever deal with issues 11 such as asbestos and health?
12 A
I'm trying to remember if it did or not? because
13 again as I say, I knew that would be something you
14 would ask* I don't remember, to be totally honest with
15 you.
15 Q How long did you have the job as editor of
17 that magazine?
18 A
For approximately one year, sometime into 1968
19 it changed.
20 Q And what is your next job?
21 A
I was approached by the company because one of
22 the specialties that I had taken at Columbia was
23 science journalism.
24 Q So you stayed editor of the magazine until
25 sometime in 1968?
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1A
Right.
2 Q And then your next job was?
3A
r then approached by the company, as I was
4 saying before, because I had done science, writing as a
5 specialty in the second half of my year at Columbia, to
6 help them with their evolving public relations problems
7 with asbestos and health. And they gave me a title
8 that was something like coordinator of special
9 projects. One of those very fuzzy type names.
10 Q How long did you have that job?
11 A
Until 1972 when Manville moved to Denver and I
12 did not want to leave New York. So I took over a job
13 as the executive secretary of the Asbestos Information
14 Association of North America.
15 Q Let me go back to the public relations job
16 you had with Manville from *68 to '72.
17 A
Uh-huh.
18 Q What specifically was your job function?
19 A
I was -- I reported to two people who were sort
20 of in charge of the total public relations effort on
21 asbestos. A fellow named Bill Raines, another fellow
22 named Jack Solon, who is really the head of advertising,
23 and public relations. Bill Raines being the head of
24 public relations. And I worked basically for those
25 two.
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1 Q What did you do?
2A
Well, for example, I would help write background
3 papers on various types of asbestos-related diseases
4 like asbestos and mesothelioma, asbestos-related
5 disease, and different types of products like asbestos
6 cement or the insulations or that sort of thing.
7 Pretty much a writing assignment. I would also write
8 testimony for executives who were going to testify at
9 say OSHA or EPA hearings, that sort of thing, or at
10 least would do drafts of them in any case.
11 Q Every time you generated a piece of
12 written work, would that be filed somewhere?
.
13 A Yeah, it would havebeen.
14 Q How was that filed?
15 A Well, it was -- it was just in what we would
16 call our old asbestos and health files at
17 Johns-Manville.
18 Q And who was the custodian of those files?
19 A They were just in the department.
20 Q Which department was that?
21 A Public relations.
22 Q So the public relations department was
23 centered in New York City at the time?
24 A That's correct. 25 Q And they had their own files on asbestos
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1 and health?
2A
To the best of my recollection* yeah. I mean* I
3 would have a filing cabinet with the stuff that I was
4 working on but --.
.
5 Q When the transfer was done out to Denver*
6 were those files shipped to Denver as well* to your
7 knowledge?
8A
I would assume they were because they were* you
9 know* we were actively working on the issues. So there
10 would be no reason for them to be tossed away.
11 Q Was the custodian of those records -- who
12 was the person in charge of them?
13 A
Well* Bill Raines did not go out there. He went
14 to -- he went to another company. I would guess Jack
15 Solon.
15 Q Is Jack still with the company?
17 A
No* he's retired.
18 Q Do you know who his successor was?
19 A No* I really don't.
20
.0
Now* in preparing these papers or writings
21 that you spoke about* did you ever to go back and do
22 research on asbestos and health?
23 A Yes.
24 Q In order to --. 25 A Yeah.
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1 Q What kind of research did you do?
2A
Well, we had been collecting, you know, basic
3 stuff out of the, out of the medical literature. 4 Q When you say "we," who are you talking
5 about?
6A
Well, Hill and Knowlton and Johns-Manville.
7 Q So Hill and Knowlton had a relationship
8 with Johns-Manville at that time?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay, go ahead.
11 A
I can recall at one point a meeting at which
12 somebody commented on the fact that we had more than
13 4,000 papers on asbestos and health in the file at that
14 particular point in time.
15 Q Now, when you say at that point I found
16 about 4,000 articles on asbestos and health, at what
17 point in time are we discussing, just so I know, about
18 1968?
19 A Well, It was probably later than that. We're
20 probably talking *71 or something in that ballpark.
21 Q Did Hill and Knowlton maintain their own
22 file on asbestos and health at that time?
23 A 24 25 A
Yes, they did have -- yeah, they did. Q And who was the custodian of that file? Probably a fellow named Carl Thompson.
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1 Q Is Carl still with the company# do you
2 know?
3 A No/ he's retired.
4 Q Now# after Carl left what happened to that
5 file?
6A
No# but it's different than that. What happened
7 was that when Manville moved to Denver all of the Hill
8 and Knowlton files were turned over to the trade
9 association.
10 Q What trade association?
11 A The Asbestos Information Association.
12
Q Okay. And when was that?
*
13 A Late 1971 probably.
14 Q Okay. So Hill and Knowlton didn't retain
15 copies?
16 A Not to the best of myknowledge.
17 Q Now# you said you did some research for
18 Mansville when you took over in this public relations
19 job. Did you ever document the earliest articles that
20 you can recall concerning asbestos and health?
21 A
I'm sorry, I don't quite understand.
22
.Q
Let me rephrase the question. Did you
_
23 breakdown the articles into the various diseases, or 24 did you just lump medical articles together when you
25 were doing --
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1A
No, these were all medical articles we are
2 referring to* Basically they were, they were looked at
3 by a combination of either disease or, you know,
4 product line for example, insulations for example.
5 Q Okay. Did you maintain copies of the
6 papers you wrote for Manville?
7 A I probably -- they were probably at the trade
8 association as well.
9 Q So then you didn't maintain personal
10 copies of the papers, did you?
11 A No.
12 Q Can you recall writing any papers
13 concerning exposure to insulation products and their
14 effect on human health?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did the papers have titles?
17 A
Oh, they probably did. It was something like
18 Asbestos Insulation and Human Health or, you know, some
19 such name.
20 Q Was that paper published at all?
21 A
No. I mean not -- you mean like in a journal or
22 something?
23 Q Right.
24 A
No. No. No. These are not medical papers.
25 These were background papers.
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1 Q Okay.
2A
I'm not a doctor or a scientist.
3 Q Where did you get the information for the
4 paper?
5A
Generally out of this, out of the medical
6 literature as it existed.
7 Q Who supplied the medical literature to
8 you?
9A
The company. And they did searches through the
10 medical literature to get all there was out there.
11 Q Did you consult any physicians in
12 connection with this paper Asbestos Insulation and-
13 Health?
14 A
Basically we would, we would write a paper or I
15 would write a paper. Then the company would, would
16 have it reviewed by their consultants, medical
17 consultants.
18 Q And do you know who that was?
19 A
The primary one in those days was a fellow named
20 Dr. George Wright.
21 Q Did you ever meet Dr. Wright?
22 A . Oh, yes.
23 Q What would his role be in conjunction with
24 these particular papers? What would he do?
25 A
Re was a consultant to Johns-Manville. He was
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1 affiliated with, as I recall, St. Luke's Hospital in, I
2 can't remember where it was. I just remember it was
3 St. Luke's Hospital someplace.
4 Q When you had this job in public relations,
5 did you consult or collaborate with any other asbestos
6 companies?
7A
Not until the trade association was formed.
8 Q And when was that?
9A
In, I think, maybe late 1970.
10 Q Can you recall with respect to the paper
11 on Asbestos Insulation and Health what the earliest
12
articles you were able to find in the medical
.
13 literature were implicating asbestos insulation as a
14 health hazard?
15 A No.
16 q Do you remember from what decade they
17 cane?
18 A
No, not really. I remember better the, you
19 know, when the diseases were found, you know, in the
20 medical literature as opposed to their association with
21 any particular product.
22 Q Okay. Well, can you recall with respect
23 to asbestosis the earliest articles you were able to '
24 find in the medical literature? 25 A My recollection is that they were probably in
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1 the 1930s.
2 Q Do you remember the authors of any of
3 those papers?
4A
No.
.
5 Q Do you remember what the papers said?
6A
Just basically that heavy exposure to asbestos
7 insulations or asbestos could causer you know/
8 asbestosis.
9 Q Okay. Did you have any discussion with
10 any physicians or any other representatives of Manville
11 concerning those findings?
12 MS* FIGtJEREDO: By those findings you'
13 mean?
14 Q The papers dating back to the 1930s on 15 asbestosis.
15 A
I'm not quite sure about what you mean by
17 discussions.
18 Q Well# did you have discuss with Dr*
19 Wright, for instance, about the articles you found 20 dating, concerning asbestosis back in the 1930s?
21 A
Probably no specific discussions.
22 Q Was it part of your job to communicate
23 your findings to someone else within the company?
24 A
Well, it's not findings. You know, we had the
25 processes -- basically we had this great body of
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1 medical literature. And it would be to go through that
2 particularly looking for epidemiological studies or
3 studies that were trying to indicate at what level 4 these various diseases, exposure level these diseases
5 were caused. And those were the most important things
6 that we used in the, in trying to prepare these
7 background papers.
v
8 Q This body of literature that you're
9 discussing, was that something that was accumulated
10 over time by Manville and they had it in a file, or did
11 you go out and do a search or someone at your request
12 go out and do a search at that point you wanted to-
13 write the paper?
14 A
I don't know the answer to that, because some of
15 those papers were in place when I got involved in the
16 job. And I don't know, I just don't know the answer to
17 that.
18 Q Did Manville have a medical library at the
19 time?
20 A I don't recall.
21 Q Now, you said that part of your endeavor
22 was to determine exposure levels. What did you mean by _
23 that?
24 A Well -- 25 (Recess.)
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1A
-- determine is not a good word. All we were
2 looking for was what was in the literature with regard
3 to the exposure levels at which asbestos caused disease
4 of various types.
5 Q And what did you find?
6A
Basically the problem with the, at that time is
7 that the dust samples -- again, I'm just referring to
8 the literature -- that the dust samples that had been
9 taken years before that were recorded in the literature
10 were not the same sampling techniques that were being
11 used at that particular point in time* And so it was
12 kind of difficult to arrive at what would be
*
13 considered, you know, a "safe level" of exposure* So
14 of course, there was a lot of research going on trying
15 to correlate, you know* one with the other* And we
16 just tried to help explain that as best we could.
17 Q Did Manville have a position or a belief
18 at that time, to your knowledge, as to what was the
19 safe level of exposure in terms of asbestosis now?
20 A
Asbestosis. I'm sure that they did* I can't
21 say specifically what that might have been for
22 asbestosis.
23 0 Did you ever research the concept of
24 threshold limit value for them?
25 A
Of course, that's what we were, you know,
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1 essentially looking at# is to try and determine what
2 sort of, what would make sense in that regard.
3 Q Did you reach any conclusions or did
4 anyone working with you reach any conclusions
5 concerning the reliability of an established threshold 6 limit value?
7A
In other words, would it work?
3 Q Right.
9A
Yeah, I think they believed that there was a
10 level that could be set by the government that would
11 protect people, if that's what you mean*
12
Q Do you know what that was?
-
13 A
No, they thought, I think, you know, in the low
14 numbers of fiber per cubic centimeter, whether it was
15 going to be -- whether it would be two or four or five
16 or somewhere in that general ballpark*
17 Q Did you also do research and prepare a
18 background paper concerning asbestos and lung cancer?
19 A
I'm sure I did.
20 Q Okay. And who did you consult, or what
21 did you consult in preparing that paper?
22 A . The same processes as the other ones*
23 Q Can you recall the first articles that you 24 were able to -- the earliest articles you were able to 25 find demonstrating an association between asbestos and
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1 lung cancer?
2A
My recollection, probably in the late '40s,
3 something like that.
4 Q Can you recall who the author of those
5 articles were?
,
6A
No, I have the recollection it was a British
7 paper, but I'm not sure.
8 Q Can you recall any particular
9 epidemiological studies that you found which
10 established an association between asbestos and lung
11 cancer?
12 A
Well, that's what I'm referring to,
13 epidemiological studies*
14 Q Okay. Did Manville ever give you any of
15 their own data with respect to their own employees when
16 you were writing up these background papers?
17 A
No.
18 Q So this was basically a search of what was
19 out there at the time?
20 A
Yes, that's correct.
21 Q Did you put your conclusions as to when
22 this first association became known in this background
23 paper?
24 A
Most likely. I mean,that would be the standard
25
way I would write things. So Iwouldassume
I did
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1 that.
2 Q Did anyone/ to your knowledge, come back
3 to you and disagreewith your conclusions?
4A
No.
5 Q Did you submit those papers to Dr. Wright
6 again for review?
7A
Oh, yes.
8 Q And did he disagree with the determination
9 or conclusions that you reached concerning asbestos and
10 lung cancer?
11 A
No, not to the best of my recollection.
12 Q Did you also attempt to determine whether
13 there was a safe level of exposure in terms of
14 contracting lung cancer from asbestos?
15 A
The process of looking at TLV's for asbestos was
16 just applied across the board for all the diseases.
17 Q Did you ever do a background paper
18 concerning exposure to asbestos and mesothelioma?
19 A
Again, I'm -- don't remember precisely doing
20 that, but I assume I did, because we had a great body
21 of those papers, eight or nine of one type or another.
22 So.that would be naturally one to be done.
23 Q Do you recall the earliest articles that
r 24 you found in Manville's files demonstrating an 25 association between asbestos and mesothelioma?
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1A
Yeah, that's definitely in the '50s. An
2 epidemiological study of one type or another.
3 Q Can you recall specifically the name of
4 the paper or the study?
.
5 A No.
6 Q Or the author?
7A
My recollection, it was a paper out of South
8 Africa or Rhodesia, as it was then known, on the
9 asbestos mines and crocidolite mines in South Africa is
10 my recollection.
11 Q Does the name Wagner ring a bell?
12 A Yeah.
*
13 Q Can you recall when you looked at the
14 Wagner paper whether is there was any mention of
15 different exposure levels in that particular paper?
16 A No, I can't remember:
17 Q Did you ever do a paper for Manville
18 concerning the risk of contracting asbestos-related
19 disease from low level exposure and do a medical search
20 in connection with that?
21 A
I don't think as a specific paper not that I --
22 not that I recall.
23 Q Did you ever do that type of research in
24 looking at the medical literature in possession of
25 Johns-Manville?
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1A
Yeah, that was obviously part of, you know, when
2 going through the whole OSHA process to find out, you
3 know, at what levels things are gonna not happen again.
4 Q Can you recall the earliest papers that
5 you found concerning low level exposure to asbestos and
6 asbestos disease*
1A
Well, what -- okay, let me ask you a question*
8 X have to ask you a question; that is, what do you mean
9 by "low level"?
10 Q That's a fair question* Did you ever do
11 any research papers, for instance, bystander exposure,
12 people who actually didn't work with insulation '
13 products but were exposed as bystanders?
14 A
I don't recall their ever having, ever having
15 seen such a paper. The only -- Okay.
16 MS. FIGOEREDO: Don't guess.
17 THE WITNESS: No.
18 Q Did you ever see any papers concerning
19 exposure and risk of disease or disease developing in
20 family members?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Can you recall the earliest paper in that -
23 regard?
24 A Oh, gosh that, that came probably late. That
25 was again, I think, a British paper, too. Woman
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1 author. I met her a couple of times. Probably,
I
2
probably that would have been in the late *50s, early
!
3 '60s I would think would be my best guess. 4 Q That's your best estimate?
ti i
5 A Yeah.
6 Q And do you recall what the substance of
7 that paper was, what it said?
8 A Yeah. Basically she had found cases of
9 mesothelioma in the households of people who had worked
10 in asbestos factories of one type or another, I don't
11 recall what kind, in England somewhere.
12 Q And did you bring these or have discussion
13 about these papers with anybody at Manville?
14 A
Oh, sure. It was a very -- those were very
15 important issues.
16 Q Who did you run those papers by when you
17 found them?
18 A
Well, I mean everybody knew that they existed.
19 I mean/ the doctors at Manville knew the authors of 20 these papers. They spent a lot of time talking with
21 them about them, what the implications were, what kind 22 of levels one might have projected that the people had
23 been exposed to in the households. You know, this 24 thing, none of this happened in isolation. X mean, I
25 spent many a month in Europe talking around with
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1 doctors over there, you know, going over there with the
2 Manville people to get better information on what was
3 going on.
4 Q Which doctors did you go see in Europe?
5A
Good question. I know we went out to a
6 pneumoconiosis research unit, or some such thing in
7 Penarth, Wales. And there was another center for
8 asbestos health studies in Scotland. You know, those
9 sorts of things. And to conferences and that sort of
10 stuff.
11 0 Did you ever meet with a Dr. Nocks?
12 A
Dr. Nocks. The name is familiar.
*
13 Q Company known as Turner 6 Newall?
14 A
Yeah. Yeah, X probably did*
15 Q Did you ever meet with a Sir Richard Doll?
16 A
I don't believe I personally did. I, of course,
17 know who he is.
18 0 After you had read this paper over, did
19 you discuss it with Dr. Wright/ the paper on
20 mesothelioma in the family of asbestos factory workers?
21 A
X wouldn't think we discussed it.
22 Q Did anyone at Manville, to your knowledge, -
23 ever disagree with the conclusions reached in that
24 paper when you brought it to their attention?
25 A
Well, no, no one ever disagreed with it.
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1 Q Can you think of any other papers that you
2 discovered or you discussed with anyone concerning
3 asbestos disease and family members?
4A
That's -- that's the only paper that X can
5 recall, that one particular paper.
6 Q Can you recall ever reading any papers in
7 possession of Manville concerning asbestos disease 8 found in residents around an asbestos factory or mine?
9A
The only one that 1 can recall was there was
10 some higher incidence of mesothelioma in the vicinity
11 of a shipyard in Scotland or some such place. That's
12 the only one I can recall.
*
13 Q Can you recall approximately when that
14 paper was published?
15 A
Well, no. It was probably again in the '60s.
16 Q Can you describe the relationship between
17 Hill and Knowlton and Johns-Hanville when you first
18 went to work for Johns-Manville?
19 A
Hill and Knowlton was not retained by
20 Johns-Hanville when I went to work there. They were
21 retained sometime in 1968 specifically to work with
22 them on the asbestos and health situation. But when
23 precisely they are, I don't know. They were in place
24 when I was offered to change jobs within the company. 25 Q Do you know who the account representative
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1 from Hill and Knowlton was at the time?
2A
Carl Thomson.
3 Q You tell me he's retired, correct?
4 A Yes,
5 Q Did he have any associates that worked
6 with him on that account that still work at Hill and
7 Knowlton?
8 A No.
9 Q Can you recall any of the associates he
10 had with him on that account?
11 A Jim Callaghan. Do wantmore? I'm trying to
12 remember. Fellow named Bill Jenkins. Those are the
13 only two additional I can remember.
14 Q What specifically was Hill and Knowlton
15 retained to assist with by Johns-Manville?
16 A
Well, basically to counselthem on how to
17 discuss the implications of the asbestos and health
18 problem with the public, with their employees, with
19 government, whatever.
20 Q Now, at that time was Hill and Knowlton to
21 your knowledge retained by any other insulation
22 manufacturer or asbestos manufacturer?
_
23 A
Not to the best of my knowledge.
24 Q Are you aware of an agreement between
25 Johns-Manville, Owens-Corning, Pittsburgh Plate Glass
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1 and Certain-Teed in the late 1960s retaining Hill and
2 Knowlton concerning the issues of asbestos and health?
3A
When would this have been?
4 Q '61, '68, '69.
5A
No, I thought it was just Manville.
6 Q Did Hill and Knowlton have its own medical
7 people at the time that assisted Manville?
8 A You mean doctors, professionals.
9 Q Doctors*
10 A No.
11 Q What type of assistance did it give
12 Manville other than writing copy for them and helping
13 them with press releases, that type of thing?
14 A Just, you know, just counsel them on, as 1 said,
15. on public relations aspects of the issue*
16 Q Did Hill and Knowlton give Manville any
17 technical support?
18 A No.
19 Q Did they ever, during the time that you
20 worked there, counsel Manville on how to deal with
21 lawsuits arising out of asbestos?
22 A No.
-
23 Q Can you recall what specifically Hill and
24 Knowlton advised Manville to do with respect to the
25 problem of asbestos and health?
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1A
Well, the basic position was that to solve the
2 problem and to at the same time put it in perspective
3 where it had gotten a little bit out of whack.
4 Q When you say that, what do you mean by
5 that?
6A
That it was the belief of all of us working at
7 ' Manville that asbestos could be used safely and that
8 the exposures could be controlled to an extent where
9 there would not be, you know, additional disease in the
10 future. And so the effort was to, obviously to explain
11 that to whoever needed to understand it.
12 Q When you say could be used safely, what do
13 you mean by that?
14 A
Meaning that you could manufacture asbestos
15 products, you could use asbestos-containing products,
16 you can mine asbestos without endangering the health of
17 the people who were handling that.
18 Q What precautions would have to be taken in
19 the opinion of Manville at the time to accomplish that
20 obj ective?
21 A Well, obviously huge air cleaning equipment in
22 plants and factories and mines, which they already had .
23 in place basically. But to, you know, to make sure
24 that you had state-of-the-art air cleaning equipment in
25 all operations. I can remember basically, you know.
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1 sort of research projects to try and find ways, for
2 example, to open bags of asbestos in a fashion that the 3 dust would not be created. They had these things where 4 yo u * d stick your hands in, almost like in an operating 5 room, and then open the bags that way. And eventually
6 I think they developed mechanical bag openers, and that 7 sort of stuff. A lot of technical type of efforts to 8 do that sort of thing. 9 Q Was it Manville's believe at the time that
10 opening a bag of asbestos would release asbestos
11 containing particles?
12 A
Of course it would. A bag of asbestos, and you
13 open it you get a puff up, you get an exposure. 14 Q Did that include asbestos cement as well?
15 A
I don't recall stuff on asbestos cement, to be
16 honest with you. Because they were really basically
17 involved in the finish asbestos cement products. So I 18 don't think they sold asbestos cement in bags, as I
19 recall. 20 Q Okay.
21 A
So it would not be something that technically
22 they'd pay attention to.
23 Q Were you ever involved in any discussions
24 on labeling of Manville products?
25 A
Not that I recall.
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1 Q Now, when you say that the issue in
2 Manville's mind got out of perspective, I want to
3 explore that. What do you mean by that specifically?
4 A Well, there was perfect --.
-
5 MS. FIGUEREDO: You mean in greater detail
6 than he has already explained to you?
7 MR. PLACITELLA: I haven't heard about
8 perspective. He just told me about ways to make
9 use of the product safe, I believe.
10 A oh-huh.
11 Q And I want to know what you mean when you
12 say it got out of perspective.
`
13 A
I think there was a feeling in the, you know, in
14 the popular press that any exposure to any level of
15 asbestos was automatically going to give people
16 disease. And that simply was not supported by what was
17 in the, in any of the literature, or by any of the
18 research that had been done. So that was part of the
19 reason for, for, you know, doing some of those
20 background papers. It could be used with the press or
21 whatever to explain, yes, it's a problem but it's, it
22 can be, you know, dealt with.
23 Q Okay. At that time were you familiar with
24 Dr. Irving Selikoff?
25 A
Oh, yes.
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1 Q How were you familiar with him?
2A
Dr. Selikoff and the Environmental Sciences
3 Laboratory at Mount Sinai and Johns-Manville entered
4 into a research project sometime in the late '60s to
5 address the issue of the safe handling of asbestos
6 insulation in the field, not in the production of it in
7 a factory, but in the field. 8 Q Why why was that?
9A
Because Or. Selikoff had done a lot of research
10 on insulation workers, really asbestos insulation
11 workers. And they had an exceedingly high incidence of
12 asbestos-related diseases.
13 Q Is that something that was known to
14 Manville at the time?
15 A
Oh, of course.
16 17 A
Q Okay. Go ahead. So the question was how can you develop or
18 change work practices. Can you get portable air hoods
19 to work with what needs to be done to protect these
20 people in the way that they either apply or tear out
21 asbestos insulations.
22 Q Do you know whether John Manville and Hill '
23 and Knowlton ever established any type of public 24 relations campaign to counteract the adverse publicity
25 that Selikoff's studies were generating in the press?
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1A
No, not really. I mean, they were basically
2 working together with the man at that time.
3 Q Were you familiar with an article that
4 appeared in the literature at the time called The Magic
5 Mineral?
6A
I remember the name, but not the article.
7 Q Did you ever have any discussions with
8 Hill and Rnowlton or in Manville itself concerning how
9 best to present the asbestos and health picture to the
10 labor unions?
11 A
No. The only -- my only recollection of labor
12 unions is they were also involved in that project that
13 I had mentioned before with Manville and Mount Sinai
14 and Selikoff. A fellow from there was a member -- the 15 president of the union was a member of the board of 16 this thing, which I can't even recall the name of 17 anymore. 18 Q Let me just move on for a second and I'll 19 come back. You had this particular job until you said 20 about what time?
21 A The end of 1971.
22
Q
Prior -- let's discuss the AIA of North
"
23 America.
J 24 A Okay. 25 Q When was that established?
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1A
I believe in late 1970.
.
2 Q And was that patterned after any other
3 organization, to your knowledge?
4A
Yes, an Asbestos Information Association type of
5 a group in England.
6 Q Do you know whether Hill and Knowlton had
1 advised the AIA in England prior to that time?
8 A Yes, they had.
9 Q Do you recall in the 1970s what companies
10 founded the AIA of North America?
11 A
I could name a couple* It's in some of the
12 material X passed on for the deposition before*
13 Certain-Teed, of course Manville, Raybestos-Manhattan,
14 National Gypsum* It seems to me there were seven or
15 eight* GAF, that's all I can remember of the initial.
16 Q Was Owens-Corning a member?
17 A I don't believe so*
18 Q What about Baldwin, Ehret, Hill, do you
19 recall that, or Keene Company?
20 A No*
21 Q Celotex or Philip Carey?
22 A Philip Carey Ithink may have come in in the
23 second group much later* They expanded it from the
24 original seven or eight up until about 22 or 23. And I
25 can't, again, I also can't remember too many of them.
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1 you know*
2 Q When it was established in 1970, did you
3 have any role within the organization?
4A
Yeah, I -- Manville basically for the first year
5 provided, for all intents and purposes, the staff to
6 this group. And from the public relations standpoint
7 that was myself and this fellow Bill Raines.
8 Q Did you have a title?
9A
I don't believe so. At least not initially X
10 don't recall that I did, in any case.
11 Q What was the purpose of the AIA of North
12 America.
'
13 A
Well, it was essentially to get the entire
14 industry into the effort that Manville had basically
15 been carrying on its own, which was to basically
16 address the health issues from an informational
17 standpoint with regard to asbestos and its various
18 health problems. They had technical committees, for
19 example, to put together, you know, safe use, safe
20 practice books on various types of asbestos useage, you
21 know, that sort of thing.
22 Q Okay. You started officially full-time
23 with the AIA when?
24 A
Beginning in 1972.
25 Q What was your position?
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1 A Executive secretary.
2 Q What were your job responsibilities there?
3A
Basically it was really a continuation of my
4 Manville job, just with a different title.
5 Q And were there any other officers within
6 the organization at that time?
7A
No, I was -- myself and a secretary were the
8 sole paid employees.
9 Q what were your job responsibilities, the
10 same as you had with Manville? 11 A Same really as we had with Manville.
12 Q Only at that point in time you were doing 13 it on behalf of not just Manville but other member
14 companies?
15' A
Other member companies, that's correct.
16 Q Did you ever, in that capacity, go around
17 to any trade organisations to give speeches or anything
18 like that?
19 A
Not really. Basically the asbestos people, to
20 my recollection, didn't have too many trade
21 associations. And this one, as I said, was dedicated
22 pretty much to the asbestos and health issue. And they `
23 had most of the major companies involved in it. So --.
24 MS. FIGUEREDO: Excuse me.
25 (Witness and Counsel confer).
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1 Q Do you recall ever giving a presentation 2 to The Asbestos TextileInstitute? 3 A No. 4 Q Do you recall speaking before them on June 5 7, 1973?
6 A I really don't.
7 Q Okay.
8 MR. PLACITELLA: Can I have this marked as 9 P-1? 10 (The above-mentioned document is marked as 11 P-1 for Identification.)
12 Q I am going to show you what's been marked
13 P-1 for Identification, which I represent to you is a
14 transcript of a presentation that you gave on 6/7/73 to
15 The Asbestos Textile Institute according to one of the 16 asbestos companies that was present at that.
17 MS. FIGUEREDO: That is an imperuim
18 (phonetic) document?
19 MR. PLACITELLA: What?
20 MS. FIGUEREDO: I'm asking you is his name
21 in the document?
22 MR. PLACITELLA: Yes, right on top.
23 Q I ask you to review at least the first 24 couple pages of that and see if that helps refresh your
25 memory.
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1 A Sure.
2 (Witness reviews).
3 A Yeah, it's possible. 4 MS. FIGUEREDO: Are you going to ask him 5 specific questions on this document? 6 Q Yes, I am. 7 MS. FIGUEREDO: I would like him to read 8 the whole thing.
9 MR. PLACITELLA: We will go through it.
10 Q Does that help refresh your memory?
11 A Yeah. I don't recall the occasion.
12 Q Do you recall at one time speaking before 13 The Asbestos Textile Institute?
14 A I do not.
15 Q Does .this refresh your memory as to
16 whether you had ever given presentations to asbestos 17 industry trade organizations?
18 A
If that is an accurate document, then I
19 obviously did to that group. But I, the fact of the 20 matter is, I don't even remember giving that. 21 MS. FIGUEREDO: His question is, does it
22 refresh your recollection? If it doesn't, you 23 can say no. 24 A No, it does not. 25 Q Will you tell me if this statement in this
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1 document is true to the best of your knowledge? It
2 says, "in our original concept the Association would
3 limit its activities to providing accurate, unbiased
4 information on asbestos and health to the press, to the
5 public and to interested politicians and other
6 government officials."
7A
Yes, that's true.
8 Q That's true. You recall making such a
9 statement?
10 A No.
11 MS. FIGOEREDO: Do you have another
12 copy of that he can look at at the same time
13 you're reading things from it?
14 MR. PLACITEIiLA: I am sorry, I don't.
15 0 Wa^ the following statement true at the
16 time; "It must be remembered that at this particular
17 time the enormous problems that would later develop
18 with regard to OSHA and other federal regulatory
19 agencies were as yet on the distant horizon and
20 basically unrecognized by the industry"?
21 A Yes, that's true.
22 Q Okay.
23 MS. FIGOEREDO: Can I interrupt? If
24 you're going to ask a lot of things like, can we
25 make a copy of the document so he can have it in
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1 front of him to look at in conjunction --.
2 MR. PLACITELLA: Sure,
3 MS. FIGUEREDO: Is there a machine?
4
THE WITNESS: Sure.
-
5 Q Can you recall making the following --. 6 MS. FIGUEREDO: I asked if we can have a 7 copy.
8 MR. PLACITELLA: Fine. As soon as I am
9 done you can have a copy.
10 MS. FIGUEREDO: I want him to have a
11 copy in front of him. I don't think it's
12
) 13
14
that unfair to ask for him to have a copy of a document if you are going to be reading statements from it.
15 MR. PLACITELLA: As soon as I finish this
16 paragraph you can make a copy.
17 Q Do you recall making the following
18 statement: "Fortunately and properly the Association
19 has had the wisdom to alter its original limited
20 concept of its proper functions# and now endeavors to 21 assume whatever activities and responsibilities it 22 deems necessary to protect the interests of the
23 asbestos manufacturing industry in the United States
24 vis-a-vis asbestos and health"?
25 A
I don't remember making that statement. But --.
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1 Q Do you dispute that it was made by you?
2A
I just don't recall.
3 Q What I'd like to have you do right now is
4 to read it. We will take two minutes out and you can
5 read this statement and see if it refreshes your memory
6 and see whether it refreshes your recollection.
7 MS. FIGUEREDO: Are you going to be
8 reading him other direct passages?
9 MR. PLACITELLA: I will let him read that.
10 Do you want to make a copy?
11 MS. FIGOEREDO: Yes.
12 (Recess.)
13 MR. PLACITELLA: X can go on while we are
14 waiting for copies.
15 Can we mark these?
16 (Documents are marked as
17 P-2 and P-3 for Identification.)
18 Q In 1973 was there anyone authorized to
19 speak on behalf of the AIA of North America other than
20 yourself?
21 A Oh, sure, the president.
22 Q Who was that?
23 A 1973, probably John Marsh.
24 Q Now, yorrae ;that around 1970 when the
25 organization was established both you and Mr. Raines
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1 were the only executives or principals within the
2 organization? is that correct?
3A
No, no. X said that we were on the staff.
4 Q Oh, okay. Did you have other staff within
5 the organization at that time?
6 A Yes, from the member companies.
7 Q Okay. Can you recall who else was on the
8 staff in 1970?
9A
I can only remember one man, and that was a
10 fellow named Ed Fenner from Johns-Manville who was in
11 charge of environmental affairs.
12 Q Did it have a president at that time?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Who was that?
15 A I can't remember.
16 Q At some point in time you recall John
17 Marsh taking over --
18 A Yes.
19 Q -- as president?
20 A Yes.
21 Q When was that?
22 A Probably in late *72.
23 Q All right. Was he with an asbestos
24 company?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q Which company?
2 A Raybestos-Manhattan.
3 Q Do you recall how long John Marsh was
4 president?
5 A No.
6 Q How long did you remain executive
7 secretary?
8 A I left in August of '73.
9 Q And where did you go after that?
10 A To Hill and Knowlton.
11 Q I am going to ask you to look at P-2 and
12 P--3f and ask if you have ever seen these before# or
13 copies of them?
14 (Witness reviews).
15 A
I've seen that one.
16 MS. FIGUEREOO: He is referring to P-2.
17 MR. PLACITELLA: Correct.
18 A
No9 I've never seen this one.
19 Q Can you tell me what P-2 is?
20 A
I had nothing to do withthe preparation of
21 this. I'd be assuming what its purpose was# because I
22 don't know. I've just seen copies of it.
23 Q Where did you see copies of it.
24 A
Probably Bob Marinas sent me a copy when it was
25 put together.
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1 Q Who is Bob Marinas?
2A
He succeeded me as running the trade association
3 when X left in *73.
4 Q How long did he keep that job?
5 A I don't know. I know he's gone.
6 Q To your knowledge, was that booklet P-2
7 put together after you left?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Now, your attorney has asked me to make
10 you a copy of P-1 so we can go through it together.
11 And in June of 1973* who else was authorized to speak
12 on behalf of the Asbestos Information Association of
13 North America to industry trade organizations other
14 than yourself?
15 A Well, the presidentobviously. And, of course,
16 the people who would be in charge of the environmental
17 sections of it.
18 Q And who was the one who had the
19 responsibility of making presentations to various
20 industry organizations?
21 A No one.
22 Q Can we turnto page 3?
23 I'd like to refer you to the first full
24 paragraph.
25 A Uh-huh.
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1 Q On page 3 the sentence says? "First, there
2 is no doubt that the inhalation of substantial amounts
3 of asbestos being lead to increased rates of various
4 types of lung disease, including two forms of cancer. 5 These are facts which cannot be denied, even if they do
6 not apply in all circumstances and under all
7 conditions." Is that a statement that you believe was
8 true in 1973?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Do you believe that the members of the
11 organization ascribed to that statement?
12 A Yes.
'
13 Q All right. I(d like to read you the next
14 sentence: "The medical literature is full of solid 15 evidence linking asbestos to disease. In my office I
16 have on file more than 2,000 medical papers dealing 17 with the health risk of asbestos, and hundreds more are
18 published every year." At that time in 1973 did you
19 have at least 2,000 papers in your office --
20 A Sure.
21 Q --on asbestos disease?
22 A Probably was more.
23 Q Can you recall ever making that statement?
24 A Yes. I mean --
25 Q Okay. Let me just go on to the next
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1 sentence: "Secondly, the spreading of alarm over the
2 health risks of asbestos has as its prime spokesman one
3 of the most talented medical publicists of the age. Dr.
4 Irving Selikoff of New York City Mount Sinai Hospital."
5 Did you believe that at the time?
6A
Uh-huh.
1 Q Do you recall stating that?
8A 9
I don't recall stating it. Q I ask you to turn to page four.
10 The first full paragraph says: "While Dr. Selikoff has,
11 in his zeal, unquestionably painted a far darker
12 pictures than the facts warrant, we should always '
13 remember in his defense that the insulation workers he
14 has been studying for far more than a decade were and
15 still are dying from asbestos-related disease at an
16 appalling rate." Do you believe that statement to be
17 true in 1973?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Did the members of the organization in
20 1973, to your knowledge, ascribe to that statement as
21 well?
22 A I would think so.
23 MS. FIGUEREDO: One second.
24 (Witness and Counsel confer).
25 Q I'd ask you to look at page 7.
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1 The first full paragraph says: "In those years
2 industry efforts to combat the spate of negative press
3 articles on asbestos were carried on primarily by the
4 Johns-Manville Corporation/ which set up a task force
5 of specialists in various fields to do what it could to
6 portray the problem in its proper perspective. Were
7 you part of that task force.
8A
Basically I was -- not really. I didn't go to
9 those task force meetings.
10 Q Who went to those task force meetings?
11 A
People much higher up the ladder in the company
12 than myself.
'
u A_
13 Q All right. Do you know the names of any
14 of them?
15 A
Well/ Jack Solon would have been/ the president
16 of Manville.
17 Q Who was that?
18 A
Clint Burnett was his name. Dr. Wright was part
19 of that task force. People representing the
20 environmental control side of the company. I can't
21 remember specifically who. That's about -- I mean/
22 there were many more/ but I can't remember.
23 Q Okay. And the next sentence says; "While
j 24 some minor successes were achieved/ it was found that 25 no one could acting independently could adequately or
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1 effectively represent an entire industry in dealing
2 with the press and with government officials." Do you
3 believe that to be true at the time?
4A
Yes.
5 Q X read this paragraph to you before, and
6 I'd like to give you the opportunity to address it. 7 The second paragraph on Page 8. it says:
8 "Fortunately, and properly the Association has had the 9 wisdom to alter its original limited concept of its
10 proper functions, and now endeavors to assume whatever
u activities and responsibilities it deems necessary to
12 protect the interests of the asbestos manufacturing
13 industry in the United States vis-a-vis asbestos and
14 health." Did you believe that to be true at the time?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And was that the position of the various 17 members of the Asbestos Information Association at the
18 time?
19 A
I would have to assume so.
20 Q The next page discusses the nine fields
21 of endeavor for the Asbestos Information Association.
22 And it lists medical affairs, legal affairs, government '
23 affairs, environmental control, publicity and public
24 relations, customer relations, employee relations and
25 inter-industry relations. Was that true at the time?
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1 A I assume it was*
2 Q To the best of your recollection?
3A 4
Yes, best of my recollection. Q Am I correct that part of the function of
5 the Asbestos Information Association was to send
6 medical people around the World to attend various
1 medical seminars and meetings?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And what was the purpose of sending those
10 people there?
11 A Well, two purposes. One, obviously, to gain the
12 most up-to-date information on what research was being
13 done on asbestos and health. And secondly, in some
14 cases people in the industry were actually doing
15 research of their own of various types, and they would
16 go and present their information.
17 Q Do you recall attending a meeting in 1972
18 in Dyon, France sponsored by the World Health
19 Organization along with John Marsh?
20 A Yes.
21 Q I'd ask you to look at page 10 and read
22 the first three paragraphs where it starts "To take our -
23 activities."
24 A Uh-huh. Yes.
25 Q Mow, I ask you to look at the third full
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1 paragraph where'it says "Both John Marsh the president
2 of the AIA and I attended the conference on behalf of
3 the Association." Is the "I" referring to you* Matthew
4 Swetonic?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Are you aware of a study sponsored by the
7 Asbestos Information Association conducted at the
8 Somerset Hospital in New Jersey?
-
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. What is your knowledge of that
IX study and the AIA's role in that study?
12
A
A doctor out there believed that he had
*
13 developed some sort of a treatment for mesothelioma
14 using electricity or some such thing* and so he had
15 come to the Association looking for money to try the
16 treatment* continue the treatment. That's my
17 recollection of it.
18 Q Do you recall the Association retaining
19 the services of Clifford Scheckler?
20 A
I don't recall it on a pay basis.
21 Q I'll ask you to look at page 13* the last
22 paragraph. It says: "In the customer relations area -
23 the total effect of negative press publicity and
24 government relations on industry customers is still
25 today rather poorly defined. Some members of the
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1 Association have reported serious problems in this
2 area, while others have experienced few or no
3 difficulties thus far." Can you recall what problems 4 you were referring to?
5A
i believe to the point that people, customers
6 didn't want products of any type with asbestos in it,
7 no matter, you know, what.
3 Q Can you recall the Asbestos Information
9 Association preparing slide presentations concerning
10 the facts about asbestos and health?
11 A Gee, not really.
12
Q I ask you to look at page 18.
*
13 It says, the first paragraph: "I personally believe
14 that the employee relations aspect of the asbestos
15 health problem is one that has been sorely neglected by
16 most companies within the industry." Did you believe
17 that at the time?
18 A I assume.
19 Q It says: "I feel that this could develop
20 into a major problem area in the near future, and that 21 steps should be taken now to deal with it. We know
22 that Dr. Selikoff and various organized labor groups
23 are planning a full-scale campaign to bring their
24 interpretation of the asbestos health problem to the
25 attention of asbestos industry employees throughout the
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1 Nation." How did you find that out, do you remember? 2 A No. 3 Q The next sentence says: "If the industry 4 permits this interpretation to be disseminated 5 unchallenged* the consequences could be grave indeed." 6 Could you explain that to me what you meant by that? 7 MS. FIGUEREDO: If you recall now what you 8 meant by that. 9 A No , I really can't.
10 Q You don't remember what you mean by that?
11 A
No* I really don't* to be honest with you.
12 Q I ask you to look at page 23. The first
13 full paragraph talks about the public relations
14 campaign concerning asbestos and health. See that? 15 A Dh-huh. 15 Q Okay. The second full paragraph contains
17 the following statement: "In any case, we also from
18 time to time put out press releases on various subjects
19 relating to asbestos-health. A few weeks ago we issued
20 a release on the report of the advisory committee on
21 asbestos cancers of the World Health Organization. In
22 brief, the report concluded that the general public is -
23 not in danger from asbestos in the environment." Do 24 you recall that? 25 A No, I do not.
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1 Q Did you in 1973 have a file, about a half
2 dozen files in your possession concerning important
3 medical papers and photographs illustrating the 4 benefits of asbestos?
5A
Yes, of course.
6 Q And when you left Hill and Knowlton -- I 7 mean the AIA, do you believe those files were left with 8 the AIA?
9A
All the files that I had went down to the
10 Washington office of the AIA.
11 Q Okay. And do you know who was in
12 possession of those files?
'
13 A
Bob Marinas. He would have been the fellow who
14 replaced me.
15 Q Do you know today who is in charge of
16 keeping such files?
17 A
The head of the -- I would assume the head of
18 the AIA.
19 Q What is his name?
20 A Pigg, P-i-g-g, is his last name. I can't
21 remember his first name.
22 Q Did you deal with him on behalf of Hill
23 and Knowlton ever?
24 A No.
25 Q Do you still deal with the Asbestos
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1 Information Association? 2 A No. 3 Q When is the last time --. 4 MS. FIGUEREDO: Wait, I'm sorry. 5 (Witness and Counsel confer). 6 Q When is the last time that Hill and 7 Knowlton dealt with the Asbestos Information 8 Association, to your knowledge?
9 A Late -- probably late *74.
10 Q Okay. I'd like you to look at the bottom 11 of page 25. It says: "And now having heard the bad
12 side of the public relations problem/ it's time for the 13 good news. And the good news is, despite all the
14 negative articles on asbestos-health that have appeared 15 in the press over the past half-dozen years, very few 16 people have been paying attention." Can you recall 17 making that statement? 18 A NO.
19 Q Did you believe that statement to be true
20 in 1973?
21 A
I think I'd have to read further to find out in
22 what context it was said. 23 Q Please do so. And let me just --. 24 A Now I understand what it's in context. 25 Q Did you recall in February of 1973 the
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1 Association undertaking an interview --
2 A Yes.
3 Q -- survey of the American public to
4 determine its attitude toward asbestos# its awareness 5 of the health issue?
6 A Yes.
7 0 And that survey was conducted by who?
8 A Opinion Research Corporation# as it states.
9 Q And did Hill and Knowlton have anything to
10 do with that survey?
11 A Mo.
12 Q What was the results of that survey? '
13 MS. FIGUEREDO: Are you asking him of his
14 independent recollection# or what's --
15 Q Right# what you member.
16 MS. FIGUEREDO: Do you recall anything?
17 A No# not specifics.
18 Q Tell me what the results of the survey
19 were from looking at this document*
20 MS. FIGtJEREDO: You can say what it
21 states.
22 A Well it says# "comment from summary." Since I
23 don't have the summary I can't comment from it. So I
24 don't# there's no way I possibly could.
25 Q Okay. Does the text surrounding the first
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1 paragraph on 26 give any meaning to that paragraph to
2 you, that very few people have been paying attention?
3A
X think the context is, yes, the context is that
4 basically the vast majority of people according to this
5 survey were neither aware of nor particularly concerned
6 about asbestos health in their personal lives.
7 Q Did that survey also include industrial 8 workers?
9A
I have no recollection.
10 Q Okay. Can you recall if that survey was
11 done at the request of the Asbestos Information
12 Association?
*
13 A Yes.
14 Q All right. And it was the position of the 15, members of the Asbestos Information Association at that 16 time that very few people were still aware of the
17 asbestos problem; is that correct? 18 A No* I would assume, tomy recollection# the 19 reason the survey was conducted is because the industry
20 thought everybody was aware of it.
21 Q And the conclusion was what?
22 A Thatvery few people were aware.
23 0 Thank you. That was the good news# right?
24 A That's right.
25 Q Did you believe at the time that
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Dr. Selikoff and his supporters dramatized and
exaggerated the seriousness of the asbestos health
problem?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever communicate that to
i
Dr. Selikoff?
A Not me personally.
Q Did anybody at the Asbestos Information
Association ever communicate that to Dr. Selikoff?
A Idon't know.
Q Did the AsbestosInformation Association
or any entity on its behalf or its members ever do
anything to try to counteract the positions taken by
Dr. Selikoff in terms of dramatizing and exaggerating
the seriousness of the problem?
A Only to the point of trying to state what the
facts were as they were known to the industry at the
time.
Q Which was that?
A Basically that --.
MS. FIGUEREDOj You want him to summarize
all the facts that they were aware of?
;
MR. PLACITELLA: I want to know what his
basic understanding was. I'm not asking to cite
me chapter and verse. I want to know what his
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1 basic understanding was.
2A
Basically the statement/ things that I've said
3 before/ and that is in essence that asbestos products 4 company basically be used safely if the appropriate
5 controls were# you know/ were done.
6 Q Let me ask you before you go on. Did 7 Dr. Selikoff take a position contrary to that/ that if
8 you use the proper safety precautions the products
9 could be used safely?
10 A
Basically that was the# that was the purpose of
11 the whole program that Manville and Dr. Selikoff
12 undertook to find ways to do that specifically for the
13 insulation workers.
14 Q What I'm trying to understand is why --
15' A
What's --.
16 Q -- the Asbestos Information Association
17 believed that Dr. Selikoff was exaggerating the
18 seriousness of the problem?
19 A
Because Dr. Selikoff took the single example
20 from a health standpoint of the workers in the
21 insulation trades/ which was an extremely dusty trade#
22 and tried to apply those numbers to everybody who
23 worked with asbestos worldwide. And there was plenty
24 of epidemiological data that said that just wasn't the
25 truth# that's not the facts# people who work in other
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1 ways with asbestos where they're not exposed to huge
2 amounts of asbestos dust the way the insulation trade
3 were will not develop diseases at this sort of levels
4 that Selikoff had in his study.
5 Q Well, did you have a conclusion at the
6 time that they would develop diseases at lower levels?
7A
In some areas yes, and in some areas no.
8 Q What do you mean by that?
9A
In other words, if you looked at the textile
10 mills, for example, they had problems not as serious as
11 Selikoff's, but problems particularly with asbestosis.
12 If you looked at asbestos cement pipe, before they got
13 the crocidolite out you had some mesothelioma problems
14 there. Most other asbestos cement situations there
15 didn't seem to be any problems at all. The mining
16 situation, for whatever reason, did not seem to be bad
17 except in South Africa. So it was a mixed bag of
18 things.
19 Q Well, how long was it known that high
20 levels of fibers were generated by asbestos insulation
21 workers?
22 A
1 don't know. 1 can't say.
23 Q Okay. You did believe prior to 1973,
24 however, did you not, that individuals who were family
25 members were at risk of developing asbestos disease?
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1 MS. FIGUEREDO: Family members of whom?
2 Q Asbestos insulation workers, okay, factory
3 workers.
4A
Only from the, from a study in England.
5 Q And did you ever see anything that refuted
6 that study?
7A
I don't believe so.
8 Q So was it that Dr. Selikoff was doing
9 specifically in terms of what trade or exposed
10 population that you say over dramatized or exaggerated
11 the asbestos health problem, that's what I'm trying to
12 determine?
*
13 A
Well, let me see, to try and put this into
14 perspective. I can't remember how many people he had
15 in that insulation workers study. But he would apply
16 the percentages of deaths from asbestos to asbestosis,
17 lung cancer, mesothelioma. As I said before, to
18 everybody who worked in the asbestos industry, whether
19 they had exposure to any significant quantities of
20 asbestos at all, and despite the fact that there were
21 lots of epidemiological studies around that said that
22 basically those numbers do not apply to this, to the
23 people who work in this industry taken as a whole.
24 Q Okay. That's what I'm trying to
25 understand.
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1A
Yes.
2 Q You said that there was demonstration that
3 people who worked with asbestos cement pipe could get
4 sick, correct?
5A
Dating back before controls were put into place.
6 Q All right. And when was that, '40s?
7 A Yeah, probably.
8 Q '50s?
9 A I don't know, before my time.
10 Q You say that there was evidence that
11 people who worked in the asbestos textile factories
12 could get sick, correct?
`'
13 A Yes, many studies.
14 Q All right. There was evidence that people
15 who worked in the asbestos insulation industry could
16 get sick, correct?
17 A Not in the manufacturing side.
18 Q That I don't understand. What do you
19 mean?
20 A
In other words, the people -- X mean, to the
21 best of my recollection, I don't think that there were
22 any studies that indicated the people who made the pipe'
23 insulation had a problem. It was only the people who
24 installed it and ripped it out that had the problem.
25 But I may be wrong. But that's my recollection.
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1 Q Is that because there were adequate
2 controls put into the various factories --
3 A Right.
4 Q -- where the products were made?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q Okay. All right. What other populations
7 other than the factory workers who made the products
8 did you think that Dr. Selikoff was exaggerating his
9 findings concerning a specific population? that's what
10 I'm trying to understand?
11 MS. FIGUEREDO: I think you are
12 misconstruing what he said. Before he said he
13 was applying the rate for insulation workers to
14 everyone else. You want him to name everyone
15. that's not an insulatin worker? 16 Q Are there any other trades that were
17 exposed that you think the numbers were unfairly
18 applied to?
19 A
The insulation workers from the outside. In
20 other words, people outside of the industry, the
21 insulation workers were the only ones to my
22 recollection that had any real serious problems.
23 Q Okay. During the time that you were with
24 the AIA of North America, did you ever participate in
25 any lobbying activities specifically with respect to
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1 the passing of OSHA standards?
2A
X testified at the OSHA hearing on asbestos and
3 discussions with their technical people during the
4 course of it with regard to certain aspects of the
5 proposed standard*
6 Q You testified on behalf of who?
7 A Asbestos Information Association*
8 Q And its members?
9 A Yes.
10 Q What was the substance of your testimony?
11 A
Basically that the industry felt that the
12 standard should be set for -- they didn't basically
13 object to the proposed standard/ which I believe was
14 two fibers per cubic centimeter. But they needed a
15 couple of years to come into compliance. They said/
16 can we do five or two years and then go down to the
17 two. And there weref you know# nix and things in the
18 workplace section/ a compliance section that they
19 wanted to change. X don't remember what they were
20 anymore.
21 Q Did the industry take/ or the AIA take a
22 position with respect to labeling of asbestos products? -
23 A
X don't remember. I don't.
24 Q Did you ever do any lobbying activities in
25 front of NIOSH?
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1 A No, I don't believe so.
2 Q How about the EPA?
3A
Again, when the EPA was going through the
4 process of their standard, there was testimony given by
5 the Asbestos Association and by a lot of member 6 companies as well, for that matter.
7 Q And what was the substance of the 8 testimony before the EPA by the Asbestos Information 9 Association?
10 A I really don't recall.
11 Q Did you personally testify?
12 A No.
'
13 Q Do you know who did testify?
14 A
I believe a man named Prank Zimmerman.
15 Q Where- is he, from National Gypsum?
16 A
National Gypsum.
17 0 Do you remember what his testimony was
18 about?
19 A
Well, he was an environmental engineer, so the
20 substance of his testimony, as I recall it, was to --
21 again they had proposed, as I recall, proposed a
22 standard and, you know, to certain little modifications
23 about what is practical and what was not practical, as 24 I recall. 25 Q Can you tell me what the structure of the
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1 AIA was in terms of when you first went there in the
2 early 1970s? Did they have various technical
3 committees, how it was broken down?
4A
Do you want it right at the beginning 1970 or --
5 Q Right.
6A
-- or beginning 1971?
7 It primarily really didn't change. It was --
8 there would be a president and a vice-president, and
9 then they would have primarily committees to deal with
10 the environmental control part. That was the important
11 part to them at that time.
12 Q What do you mean by that? '
13 A
To develop this sort of thing. This was --
14 Q You're referring to P-3?
15 A Yeah, referring to P-3. I know they put out a
16 whole bunch of these things? and that was an endless
17 process that Cliff Scheckler was involved in, that you
18 mentioned him before.
19 Q Did they have a special committee on
20 asbestos and health where the views member doctors met
21 to discuss the issues?
22 A I don't recall.
23 Q Did they have --.
24 A I don't really recall.
25 Q Were there official meetings that took
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1 place on a somewhat regular businesses at the AIA?
2A
Oh/ yes.
3 Q How often did those meetings take place?
4 A I have no recollection.
5 Q where would they take place?
6A
They would normally take place in the/ when I
7 was there/ in the offices in New York.
8 Q And were minutes kept of those meetings?
9 A They had legal counsel.
10 Q Who was that?
11 A Fellow named Bradley Walls.
12 Q Do you know whether actual minutes were 13 kept? 14 A I really don't recall.
15' Q Do you know whether any written summary of
16 the meetings were ever put together and sent to the
17 various members?
18 A
I really do not recall.
19 0 Were notes taken at the meeting?
20 A
I would assume so. I mean, I would take notes
21 at the meeting.
22 Q To your knowledge# has the Asbestos
23 Information Association ever had a policy of destroying
24 its old files concerning asbestos and health?
25 A
I have no knowledge of that. Not in my time.
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1 Q Do you want to take a break?
2 A Yeah, sure.
3 (Recess.)
4 Q You told me around 1973 you left the AIA,
5 correct?
6 A That's right. 7 Q And you went to Hill and Knowlton?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q What was your job in 1973 at Hill and
10 Knowlton?
11 A
I was an account executive in Hill and Knowlton.
12 Q And what were your jobs as account *
13 executive?
14 A To assist clients who hadproblems with health,
15. health related issues.
16 Q And can you remember any of the clients
17 that you had at that time?
18 A Just the AsbestosInformation Association.
19 Q Can you remember specifically the member 20 companies that you dealt with?
21
A
Well, of course, Manville and
Raybestos,
22 national Gypsum. Those were the ones we were closest
23 with.
24 Q What specifically did you do when you took
25 on this job at Hill and Knowlton?
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1A
My job basically was to serve in a transitional
2 stage while this person who replaced me was learning
3 the issues about asbestos.
4 Q And who was that again? -
5 A Bob Marinas.
6 Q And did you have a title when you -- you
7 were account executive?
8 A Yes.
9 Q How long did you have that title?
10 A For about, about ayear.
11 Q Until sometime in 1974?
12 A Yes.
13 Q What was the next job you had?
14 A Well the title-- I was made a vice-president in
15 1974 sometime.
16 Q And what were your duties as
17 vice-president?
18 A It's -- it was just areward.
19 Q You had the same clients?
20 A Same clients.
21 Q Did you have any clients outside of the
22 asbestos industry?
23 A Yes. *'
24 Q Who was that?
25 A Society of the Plastics Industry,
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1
Q And how long did you have the job as
j
2 vice-president?
|
3A
Until 1980.
|
4 Q And then what job did you have?
5A
I was named a senior vice-president in 1980.
6 Q Did your job responsibilities change?
7A
At approximately that same time I was -- no, it
8 was earlier than that -- I was named deputy director of
9 the division that I currently run.
10 Q Which is what?
11
A
It's titledtoday. ScientificTechnical
and
12 Environmental Affairs.
13 Q That's the job you have now?
14 A That's correct.
15. Q What does that division do?
16 A
It counselsclients involved in healthrelated
17 issues.
18 Q Does that include also members of the
19 asbestos industry, or former members?
20 A Not today.
21 Q When is the last time that Hill and
22 KnOwlton counseled a member of the asbestos industry? -
23 A
I can't speak for Hill and Knowlton. I can only
24 speak for my division.
25 Q What about your division?
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1A
I don't know what other companies do. In about
2 five or six years ago I would guess.
3 Q And why was it, did that relationship
4 cease at that time?
5A
No, this was -- this was just a project that
6 somebody wanted our advice on something.
7 Q What project was that?
8A
It was CJ.S. Gypsum. And they asked whether it
9 would be possible to put together a background paper on
10 the use of asbestos in schools.
11 G And what happened with respect to that?
12 A
Their lawyers decided that that would probably
13 not be a wise thing to do, so the project was never
14 completed.
15 Q Why not?
16 A
I don*t know.
17 Q When you say background paper, what do- you
18 mean by that?
19 A
Similar to the papers, types of papers Z
20 described before.
21 Q The history of, knowledge of diseases,
22 that type of thing?
23 A
In this particular case to assess whether there
24 was any real significant risk to children from asbestos
25 in schools.
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1 Q And that particular project was abandoned?
2 A That's correct.
3 4A
Q And you said that was around when? It1s got to be five or six years ago.
5 Q On the advice of (JSG's lawyers? 6 A As I understand it.
7 Q Did you actually have discussions with any 8 of their attorneys?
9 A NO.
10 Q The division that you man# do you have
11 doctors and technical people working in that division
12 with you?
'
13 A No.
14 Q How is that structured, thatdivision?
15 A
I am the director of the division. There is a
16 deputy director and then eight other professional
17 staff, meaning and secretaries.
18 Q That's what I am -- what do they do?
19 A
As I said before, theycounsel clients who have,
20 you know, issues that involve environment, product
21 safety and health, FDA related matters.
22
Q Do they actually do research for the
-
23 clients like opinion surveys, medical research? That's
24 what I'm trying to understand.
25 A
No, we wouldn't do medical research. We're a
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1 public relations firm.
2 Q Would you do research of medical articles?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Do you know whether Hill and Knowlton has
5 ever represented the Asbestosis Research Council?
6 A I don't know.
7 Q Do you know whether they've ever /
8 represented or had an association with Turner & Newall?
9 A I don't know*
.
10 Q What about a member of the tobacco
11 industry?
12 A Yes.
'
13 Q What is the association between Hill and
14 Knowlton and the tobacco industry?
15 A
We have clients who are in the tobacco industry.
16 Q Does your division have anything to do
17 with the tobacco industry?
18 A Yes.
19 Q In what sense?
20 A It's proprietary. I really can't discuss it.
21 Q When you say "proprietary#" what do you
22 mean by that?
23 MS. FXGUEREDO: The agency has certain
24 agreements with certain clients that aren't
25 public knowledge that Hill and Knowlton is doing
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1 work for them is confidential and they can't
2 disclose that information. There are signed
3 agreements to that effect,
4 Q Do you know if Hill and Knowlton has ever
5 been associated with or represented Owens-Corning 6 Fiberglas?
7A
I -- I don't know. I never have been involved
8 with Owens-Corning. 9 Q Never in terms of
10 A
On behalf of Hill and Knowlton*
11
Q Any involvement withrespect
to
12 Owens-Corning Fiberglas and the hazards of fiberglass?
13 A
Not to the best of my knowledge.
14 Q What about Pittsburgh Plate Glass/ has
15. Hill and Knowlton ever represented them or been
16 associated with them?
17 A Yes.
18 Q What about the Safe Buildings Alliance/
19 have you ever heard of them?
20 A No.
21 Q What about the AsbestosTextile Institute?
22 A Not to the best* of my knowledge.
23 Q United States Rubber?
24 A I don't know of it.
25 Q Any other members of the asbestos industry
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1 that you know of that Hill and Knowlton had associated
2 with or represented in the past?
3A
The only one that comes to mind is# is now
4 Raymark Corporation or formerly Raybestos-Manhattan.
5 Q Do you know anything about Hill and
6 Knowlton1s association with the Asbestos Information
1 Association in Great Britain?
8A
No, I know it no longer exists, I mean the
9 relationship. But I -- I don't know whether it didn't
10 or anything*
11 Q Does Hill and Knowlton still represent
12 Johns-Manville?
*
13 A I believe so*
14 Q Do you have anything to do with that
15 account?
.
16 A No.
17 Q Does Hill and Knowlton still represent
18 Pittsburgh Plate Glass?
19 A I believe so*
20 Q Do you have anything to do with that
21 account?
22 A I have in the past had something to do with
23 them, but not in recent years.
24 Q Have you ever represented Pittsburgh Plate
25 Glass on the subject of asbestos and health?
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1 A No.
2 Q Does your particular division maintain
3 files on asbestos and health?
4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. And who is the custodian of those
6 files? 7 A I suppose I am. 8 Q Did you have a personalfile onthat?
i
! I
<
9 A No. What wehave is just alotof, you know,
10 books, published articles on asbestos and health of one
11 type or another.
.
12
Q Do you have a file concerning
*
13 correspondence or memoranda concerning your
14 representation of present or former members of the
15 asbestos industry?
16 A Not anymore.
17 Q What happened to that file?
18 A
In the normal course of destroying files they
19 were put in a transcript file when we no longer had
20 worked for the Association, and they've long since been
21 destroyed.
22
Q
Have you ever -- when I said you I mean
-
23 Hill and Knowlton -- give any advice to any member of
24 the asbestos industry on the placement of warnings on
25 asbestos products?
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1A
Not me personally. And I don't, I can't answer
2 for anybody else.
3 Q Have you ever prepared press releases on
4 behalf of any member of the asbestos industry or 5 organization, to your knowledge?
6A
I would assume that when we were working for the
1 Asbestos Information Association in '73 and '74 that we
8 did that, but I have no recollection of what they might 9 have been about.
10 Q Do you know a Don Ferguson?
11 A
No.
12 Q What about Holly Spence?
13 A
No.
14 15' A
Q Do you know Hr. Moster, M-o-s-t-e-r? No.
16 Q How about Tabolt, T-a-b-o-l-t?
17 A
No.
18 Q Burke, B-u-r-k-e?
19 A
No.
20 Q Okay. What about a Me. Smedley?
21 A
Smedley? I believe he's in our Chicagooffice.
22 .
HR. PLACITELLA: Can we have this marked
23 P-4?
24 (The above-mentioned document is marked as
25 P-4 for Identification.)
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1 Q Looking at a document which I'll show you
2 which is marked P-4 dated June 10, 1987, which has been
3 produced to me by Hill and Knowlton in response to my
4 subpoena the last time we were here, do you recall
5 discussing in Chicago the formation of a science
6 advisory board concerning the health aspects of
1 fiberglass?
8A
Vaguely. I don't remember the nature of the
9 discussion, to be honest with you.
10 Q Are you familiar with the medical studies
11 done by Dr. Enterline?
12 A
Just from what I've read in the newspapers.-
13 Q What have you read?
14 A
I don't recall anymore. Fiberglass is not a
15 field that I know very much about.
16 Q Okay. I'm going read to you a paragraph
17 from this document. Just tell me if this is true or
18 not. It says: "We have discussed the formation of a
19 science advisory board in Chicago as well as with Hat 18
20 Swetonic of Hill and Knowlton/New York City, who is
21 well aware of Dr. Enterline and his research, the
22 creation of science advisory boards, and is completely .
23 familiar with the asbestos as well as fiberglass
24 issues." Is that a true statement?
25 A
Asbestos, yes. Fiberglass, no. And as I said,
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1 my only information on Phil's study is what I've read
2 in the Times and other places. Wall Street Journal,
3 whatever.
4 Q Have you ever met Dr. Enterline?
5A
Yes.
6 Q In what context?
7A
He was doing research for, I can't remember who
8 probably Manville on asbestos in terms of the, the
9 maintenance people in asbestos factories who seem to
10 have a higher rate of disease than normal workers. He
11 did some work on that for, I believe for
12 Johns-Manville.
*
13 Q Did you ever discuss with him his studies
14 concerning the health aspects of fiberglass?
15 A No.
16 Q Are you familiar with an organization
17 known as TIMA?
18 A Yes.
19 Q What is your familiarity with TIMA?
20 A Johns-Manville had been a member of it when I
21 was at the company. And I just -- and X knew the
22 executive director. In fact, he lived in my hometown
23 where I live now.
24 Q Who is that?
25 A Jack Barnhardt. Its the same organization I'm
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1 thinking of.
2 Q Can you recall expressing "that a panel
3 separate from TIMA would lend more credibility than an 4 industry group trying to repudiate Enterline's findings
5 or offer commentary on any future research findings"?
6A
I don't recall making a statement like that.
7 Q Let me read this paragraph to you and see
8 if this refreshes your memory.
9 A This is something I wrote?
10 Q This is a memo that Hill and Knowlton gave
11 me --
12 A I see.
13 Q -- from the Hill and Knowlton files.
14 MS. FXGUEREDO: Can we make a copy of
15. this, too? .
16 MR. PLACITELLAj I mean, you gave me the
17 original.
18 MS. FIGOEREDO: I realize that, but we
19 don't have it in front of me.
20 MR. PLACITELLA: Well, sure, make a copy.
21 I'll ask a couple questions in the
22 meantime.
23 0 Have you ever heard of a man named Jerry
24 Blizin?
25 A
Jerry Blizin.
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1 Q Who is he?
2 A Yes,
3 Q Who is he?
4A
He was a Hill and Knowlton employee in your
5 Washington office.
6 Q And what was his job?
7 A He was a senior vice-president down there. 8 Q Did he have anything to do with the
9 asbestos and/or fiberglass industry, to your knowledge?
10 A
He, he worked on an asbestos account down there
11 a couple years ago I know.
12 Q Do you know what account that was? '
13 A
It was, I believe, a Canadian asbestos coalition
14 of some type
15 Q What about Gary Nash, do you know who he
16 is? 17 A I don't believe so.
18 Q The same doesn't sound familiar to you?
19 A Gary Nash?
20 Q Right.
21 A No.
22 Q I am going to ask you to look at the
23 second full paragraph. It says: "Swetonic worked for
24 fifteen years in this area and knows the players in the
25 asbestos battle as well as the fiberglass issue.
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1 Swetonic said, and we agree, that a panel separate from
2 TIMA would lend more credibility than an industry group \
3 trying to repudiate Enterline's findings or offer
4 commentary on any future research finding's." Do you 5 recall that?
6A
This is not an accurate reflection of anything
7 that I might have said.
8 Q Well, what did you say?
9A
To my recollection, you know, in and this does
10 refresh it somewhat, that -- in the first place, I
11 never told her that I was an expert on fiberglass.
12 Q Who?
'
13 A This person Holly Spence. X assume she works in
14 our Chicago office, is all 1 can gather from this. And
15 as X recall, the discussion that what, what X had
16 suggested to her is that they get some outside experts,
17 medical doctors and that sort of thing, to form an
18 advisory panel to, to whoever, X guess to TIMA, yeah,
19 to advise them on how to, how to react to these things.
20 But never, I would not have said "repudiate Enterline's
21 findings" or anything like that. She's putting words
22 in ray mouth that I don't recall ever saying.
23 Q That's Holly Spence's characterization?
24 A
That's correct.
25 Q Did you discuss the role and mission of
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1 that particular advisory board with her?
2A 3
I don't recall. I don't recall. Q Do you recall saying to her that the
4 "mission statements would include a concern for general 5 health and safety and stress the group's interest in
6 maintaining a totally independent body for review of
7 all research methodology"?
8A
Probably some of these are my ideas, but I
9 cannot remember which ones, to be totally honest with
10 you.
11 Q Do you know a Dr. Anderson?
12 A Where Dr. Anderson? Oh, I see. No, I have no
13 idea who he is.
14 Q Do you know if Dr. Anderson is currently
15 the medical director for Johns-Manville Corporation?
ie A I don'tknow.
17 Q You ever hear of a Dr. Dobban of
18 Owens-Corning Fiberglas?
19 A No.
20 Q Do you know of any videotape made by Drs.
21 Dobban, Anderson, and Hill and Knowlton to express the
22 fiberglass industry's views on the health aspects of
23 fiberglass? 24 A No. 25 Q Who at Hill and Knowlton would have that
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1 kind of knowledge?
2A
I don* t know.
3 Q Who is in charge today, to your knowledge,
4 of Certain-Teed, Johns-Manville, and Owens-Coming
5 fiberglass in terms of the fiberglass industry at Hill
6 and Knowlton?
7 A I just -- I don't know.
8 Q Who would know that?
9A
I believe -- like I said, Manville is the only
10 one X know we work for. And X think Bob Stone, who
11 you've already deposed, works for them.
12 Q You ever hear of a woman Dottle Wackerman?
13 A No.
14 Q Well, your division handles issues of and
15 advises on health to various industry members, correct?
16 A That is correct.
17 Q What other division of Hill and Knowlton
18 is involved in that?
19 A Well, you have to understand that each office
20 will, to a large extent, attempt to do it's own
21 consulting in this area if they can get away with it.
22 Meaning that it's good for their, for their bottom line .
23 for their division. So Chicago will do some of it,
24 Washington will do some of it. We just have no
25 knowledge of it up here in New York.
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1 Q You have a counterpart to your department
2 in Chicago and Washington?
3A
Not a counterpart. But just people who will
4 call us in when they're faced with these sorts of
5 issues.
6 Q Are you aware as to whether the Chicago
7 office is an advisor to TIMA?
8A
I have no knowledge of that*
9 MS. FIGOEREDO: What does TIMA stand for?
10 THE WITNESS: Thermal Manufacturers
IX Insulation Association*
12 Q Am I correct that you have no knowledge
13 concerning Hill and Knowlton*s representation of the
14 fiberglass, anyone in the fiberglass industry?
15 A
That's correct.
16 Q Are you aware of any presentations made by
17 members of the fiberglass industry in conjunction with
18 Hill and Knowlton comparing the hazard of asbestos to
19 fiberglass?
20 A No*
21 Q Is it the practice of Hill and Knowlton
22 to,; when dealing with a subject for presentation to the -
23 public, to make videotapes practicing the presentation
24 on behalf of the speaker?
25 A That would be -- not necessarily standard, but
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1 it would be frequently done.
2 Q Do you know whether that was ever done by
3 any member of the asbestos industry with the
4 assistance of Hill and Knowlton? 5 A Not to my knowledge.
.
6 Q Well, you know that Hill and Knowlton has
7
done that with respect to Johns-Kanville and it's
'
8 approach to the bankruptcy, correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q You've seen those videotapes?
11 A
I've not seen the videotapes.
12 Q You know that that was videotaped? *
13 A
I knew that was going on, yes.
14 Q And that you i*. fact had knowledge of
15 Johns-Kanville formulating a public relations campaign
16 for employees and the public in terms of bankruptcy and
17 the issues related thereto; is that correct?
18 A
i was not involved in it.
19 Q Who was involved in it?
20 A Basically it was our Chicago office.
21 Q So does your Chicago office also represent
22 Johns-Manville and do work independent of the New York _
23 office?
24 A To the best of my knowledge.
25 Q What is the division of labor or
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1 responsibility in terms of the representation of
2 Manville between the New York and Chicago office?
3A
r don't really know. Bob Stone who handles
4 Manville used to be in our Chicago office-. So that's
5 basically where it started.
6 Q Do you know who is in charge of the
7 Manville account out of the Chicago office now?
8A
No, X do not.
9 Q Do you recall ever having spoken to a
10 Holly Spence?
11 A
Yeahr having seen this now I do.
12 Q Who is she?
*
13 A
She must work in our Chicago officer is all I
14 can say.
IS Q When did you speak to her?
IS A
Well, just on the basis of this, it would appear
17 to be June of last year#
18 MS. FIGtJEREDO: Do you have any 19 independent recollection other than from this
20 document?
21 THE WITNESS: No* not really. I mean,
22 just very vague.
23 Q Did you ever suggest that research
24 concerning the health aspects of fiberglass have been
25 conducted through the cancer research institute?
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1A
I don't recall making such a recommendation,
2 Q Can you recall any instances in the past
3 where Hill and Knowlton advised any member of the 20
4 insulation industry to set up research foundations or
5 medical research to help assist it on the asbestos and
6 health issues
7A
Only the, only going back to the establishment
8 of that joint program with Selikoff back in the late
9 '60s.
10 Q Other than that, you can't think of any?
11 A
No, X cannot think of any*
12
Q
In your capacity at the Asbestos
'
13 Information Association, had you ever discussed the
14 hazards of asbestos specifically with any industry 15 member representatives other than Johns-Manville? 16 MS* FIGUEREDO: Can you repeat the
17 question?
18 (Read back*)
19 A Well, that was the purpose of the trade
v 20
association* So, sure, with all the other member
21 companies when they would come to meetings or whatever* 22 Q I'm reading from P-2, the statement that
23 says; "Most finished asbestos-containing products when 24 correctly used will not produce dust levels high enough 25 to be a hazard to workers*" Do you know what is meant
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1 by the term "correctly used"?
2A
No. As I said, I had nothing to do with
3 preparing that document.
4 Q Can you tell me what publications your
5 division reviews on a regular basis on behalf of its
clients to determine whether there were any articles
7 concerning health hazards in industry in general?
8A
Our division, as opposed to Hill and Knowlton
9 research which would, you know, look at newspapers and
10 regular magazines, we have subscriptions to about 120
11 or 130 separate medical publications of one type or
12 another.
*
13 Q And do you have a list of that?
14 A No# I mean --.
15 Q You don't maintain a list of that?
16 A No, I really don't.
17 0 During the time that Hill and Knowlton
18 represented Johns-Manville and the AXA Association of
19 North America, can you tell me what industry
20 publications and medical journals that Hill and
21 Knowlton reviewed on a regular basis for its clients?
22 A
No, not really. It's, you know, the standard
23 New England Journal of Medicine* Journal of American
24 Cancer Society, you know, the usual stuff.
25 Q Am I correct that there is a staff at Hill
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1 and Knowlton that actually, that's part of their job
2 responsibilities?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q Where does that staff work out of?
5 A Out of my division.
6 Q And who heads that staff?
7 A Marie Overfors.
8 Q How long has she had that job?
9A
Just a year.
10 Q Prior to that was there some staff still
11 in place to do that job?
12 A
Just normally one person.
*
13 Q Do you know if an article, for instance,
14 was found on asbestos and health, what would you do
15 with that article in terms of your clients?
16 A Well, right now basically nothing because we
17 don't have any clients in the asbestos area.
18 Q But at the time that Hill and Knowlton
19 represented the asbestos industry in terms of
20 Johns-Manville and the AIA.
21 A
That function, that research function didn't
22 exist in this division at that time*
23 Q Did it exist somewhere else within Hill
24 and Knowlton?
25 A I don't really recall.
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1 Q Did there come a time when Hill and
2 Knowlton stopped representing Johns-Manville?
3A
To the best of my knowledge they represent them
4 today.
.
5 Q When is the last time that you know Hill
6 and Knowlton represented Johns-Manville concerning the
7 issues of asbestos and health?
8A
I have no knowledge of anything that we have
9 done for Manville, personal knowledge*
10 Q When is the last time that Hill and
11 Knowlton represented the Asbestos Information
12 Association?
'
13 A
I believe the end of 1974. Somewhere in that
14 ballpark*
15 Q What why was that relationship terminated?
16 A
As I said before, we were retained, specifically
17 me, to bring Bob Marinas who replaced me up to speed*
18 When they felt that that had been accomplished, then we
19 were let go.
20 Q What did you do to bring Bob Marinas up to
21 speed?
22 A
He just, you know, he had to learn all about
23 asbestos and health* He knew nothing about it, nothing
24 about any of the issues* And that was just a process
25 that went on for a period of time.
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1 Q Who was the individual or individuals who
2 taught him about that issue?
3A
Well, taught is probably too strong a word. But
4 basically me and the other people in the industry. 5 Q Such as?
6A
Well, it would be the people from the member
7 companies.
8 Q Any particular doctors instruct him or
9 give him advice, to your knowledge?
10 A 11
I can11 recall. Q Did the Asbestos Information Association
12 at the time Hill and Knowlton represented them have
13 medical advisors?
.
14 A
Did the Association have medical advisors?
1-5 Q Right.
16 A
I believe only through the member companies.
17 Q Well# that's what I'm trying to
18 understand. Did the member companies each have a
19 medical director or a medical person on a board or
20 something at it AIA?
21 A
Not all of the companies had medical directors
22 or. outside consultants that worked with them. Those#
23 some of them did and they would# there was a committee
24 as I recall of those doctors. 25 Q And would they reviewany publications or
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1 presentations made by the AIA on behalf of the industry
2 members?
3A
Yes, I believe they would, as I recall.
4 Q Can you tell me specifically which doctors
5 you can recall dealing with from those companies?
6A
I believe George Wright. I believe around that
7 time Manville had retained Dr. Paul Kotin as well.
8 There was a doctor from Raybestos, but X cannot
9 remember his name, I believe. And those are the only
10 ones that frankly come to mind.
11 Q Did any member of the insurance industry
12 ever have any relationship with Hill and Knowlton -in
13 terms of the issues of asbestos and health?
14 A
Not to my knowledge.
15 Q Now, was there a policy within the
16 Asbestos Information Association that nothing could be
17 released unless it was approved by the member
18 companies, and that no statement should be made without
19 the approval of the member companies?
20 A
Well, there was -- there was an approval
21 process. I cannot specifically say what it was. I
22 know that not everybody had to approve a statement that
23 needed to be made in a short period of time. But X
24 don't remember what the approval process was.
25 Q But generally there was approval on behalf
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1 of the industry members --
2 A Yes.
3 Q -- of anything that was published or
4 presented?
5 A That1s correct.
6 Q So, for instance, were you made a
7 presentation to Congress, the substance of that
8 presentation would have to be approved by the member
9 companies or members of it?
10 A That's correct, although I've never made a
11 presentation to Congress or any Congressional
12 committee.
13 Q For instance, when you testified before
14 OSHA --
15 A Yes.
16 Q -- was the substance of your testimony
17 first reviewed by the member companies?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Before any of these pamphlets are sent out
20 are they all approved by the member companies?
21 A If the pamphlets wereproduced when I was there,
22 yes. What happens today, I have no idea.
23 Q Am I correct that you as you sit here
24 today you don't have a recollection of a specific
25 approval procedure?
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1 A I have no idea.
2 Q Do you know whether Hill and Knowlton 3 every gave advice to Manville or any member of the AIA 4 on product packaging?
5A
Product packaging? Not to the best of my
6 recollection.
7 Q Do you know whether Hill and Knowlton ever 8 prepared any press releases or publications in response 9 to the passing of OSHA regulations on behalf of its 10 clients? 11 A With regard to asbestos?
12 13 A
Q Right. I don't think Hill and Knowlton did.
'
14 Q Do you know whether the AIA ever prepared 15 presentations or publications in response to the 16 passing of OSHA regulations on behalf of its member
17 companies?
18 A
It is my recollection that when I was at the AIA
19 that I prepared a press release when the OSHA standards
20 were issued in June of 1973, I believe. June of *73? 21 *72, sorry. 22 Q What was the substance of the press
23 release ?
24 A Just simply, I believe, that the, as I recalled
25 it was very short, that the industry found the OSHA
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1 standard to be acceptable# and that we believe that
2 they would be protective of workers in the asbestos
3 industry. Something to that effect# very simple.
4 Q Did you ever prepare# that is Hill and
5 Knowlton# help prepare any statements or press releases
6 in response to any court case involving asbestos in the
7 industry?
8A
Not to the best of my knowledge.
9 Q How about the Asbestos Information
10 Association?
11 A Not that I have been involved with# no.
12 MR. PLACXTELIiA: I don't think I have much
13 more. Why don't we take a couple minutes and
14 I'll look at everything rather than do lunch.
15 (Recess.)
16 Q I only have a couple more questions.
17 A Sure.
18 0 In your capacity with the AIA or with Hill
19 and Knowlton# have you ever dealt with a Dr. Hilton
20 Lewinsohn?
21 A I know him.
22 Q How do you know him?
23 A
He was originally -- when I first met him he was
24 working for one of the British asbestos companies. I
25 can't remember which one. And then he came to the
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1 States and had a job with Raybestos. That's how I know
2 him.
3 Q Car. you recall the last time you had any
4 contact with him?
5A
Oh, gosh, probably fifteen years ago would be my
6 best guess.
7 Q Was the company that Lewinsohn worked for
8 in Great Britain and a member of the Great Britain AIA?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Is that the context in which you met him?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What is the relationship between the AIA
13 and Great Britain and in the United States --
14 A No formal relationship.
15' Q -- at the time?
16 A
I'm talking fifteen, sixteen years ago.
17 Q Right.
18 A There was no formal relationship. We did not
19 have joint meetings or anything. But when their people
20 were in the States that he would meet with our people
21 on various aspects of environmental control or
22 whatever
23 Q You would exchangeinformation?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Now, did the AIA in Great Britain have any
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1 medical advisors to your knowledge?
2A
Yes, they did. Whether they were member company
3 people or outside consultants, I'm not totally sure.
4 Lewinsohn, for example, he was a doctor. My impression
5 was he worked for the company. He might have been an
6 outside consultant.
7 Q Do you know when the AIA of Great Britain
8 was established?
9A
Prior to the one in the United States is about
10 the best I can tell you.
11 Q Is my understanding correct that Hill and
12
Knowlton at no time employed medical advisors
*
13 concerning the issue of asbestos and health?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q They simply took advantage of whatever
16 their clients' medical people --. 17 A That's correct.
18 Q And lastly, is my understanding correct 19 that the AIA of North America still exists today, to 20 your knowledge?
21 A Yes, because we get their newsletters.
22 Q How often do you get their newsletter?
23 A
I really don't know. I don't know what the
24 frequency of that is. 25 Q Do you know where the AIA is located?
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1A
Near Washington somewhere.
2 Q What is contained in the newsletter?
3A
As I recall, and I, you know, don't go through
4 the thing very frequently just simply because we don't
5 have any clients, reports on new health studies new
6 regulations, you know, that sort of stuff.
7 Q I don't think I have any other questions
8 at this time. I don't know. Thank you very much.
9 MR. CATINO: I have no questions.
10 MR. CONNELL: I have no questions.
11 MR. LEE: No questions.
12
MR. BOYLAN: No questions.
*
13 EXAMINATION BY MR. PLACITELLA:
14 Q Have you ever had any dealings with Dr.
15 Ray Murphy?
16 A No.
17 Q How about Margaret Becklake?
18 A I'm familiar withthe name.
19 Q How about Hans Weil?
20 A Yes.
21 Q What is your connection with Dr. Hans
22 Weil, or how did you know him?
23 A He was, when I knew him he was a professor of
24 epidemiology or some such thing at University of Tulane
25 Medical School. And yeah, okay. I have to change
Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644
SWETONIC-Direct
103
1 something I said before. I believe that the AIA did
2 hire him as a consultant on the EPA because I believe
3 he testified on our behalf at an EPA hearing. I
4 believe.
-
5 Q Did he advise the AIA on issues of
6 asbestos and health from time to time?
7 A Yes. Yeah, he did.
8 Q How was he compensated?
9 A I really don't recall.
10 Q Do you know if he was paid by the hour or
11 per project?
12 A I really don't remember.
'
13 Q Have you ever heard of a Dr. Roger
14 Mitchell?
IS A
No.
16 Q How about Stuart Brooks?
17 A
No.
18 Q Ed Gaensler?
19 A
The name is familiar, but I don't havea
20 context.
21 Q How about Mark Urtell?
22 A
No, I am not familiar with the name.
23 Q This struck roe, I wanted to ask you this
24 question before. Why is it that you have nothing to do
25 with Johns-Manville anymore if you knew them so
Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644
SWETONIC-Direct
104
1 intimately and worked there?
2A
Well, two things. Our Chicago office wanted the
3 business, because as you know Manville is in Denver.
4 And so they, for their own basic financial benefit as 5 an office, they kept me out of it.
6 And the second part is, is that they as I
7 understand it, we were primarily hired to deal with
8 their financial situation, which I know nothing, you
9 know, that's not part of my best -- I don't know
10 anything about that sort of stuff. So that's really
11 the answer.
12 Q When you first went to work at the AIA and
13 after leaving Manville --
14 A Yes.
15 Q -- who was paying you? 16 A The AIA.
17 Q How was the AIA financed?
18 A By the contributions of membercompanies.
19 Q Was it an annual contribution? How does
20 it work?
21 A
I don't really recall the law firm that handled
22 how the billings were done.
23 Q What law firms?
24 A This one, this fellowbefore, that I mentioned 25 before. I don't remember the name of the firm.
Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644
SWETONIC-Direct
105
1 Q Now, you said in your professional
2 capacity you've had no contact with the AIA since 1974;
3 is that correct?
4A
That's correct. We have not done any work for
5 them since then.
6 Q Have you had any personal contact with the
7 AIA?
8A
Yes, I made a speech to them about five years or
9 six years ago, for which we were not compensated.
10 Q Concerning what?
11 A
Advising them that basically they ought to do
12
more public relations, trying to get business.
-
13 Q A business promotion?
14 A That's right, exactly.
15 Q Anything else other than that?
16 A NO.
17 MR. PLACITELLAs Okay, thank you very
18 much. I don't have any other questions.
19 (Adjourned 1:01 p.m.)
20
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23
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Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644
106
1 CERTIFICATE
2 I, DIANA L. R. SENATORE, Notary Public and
3 Certified Shorthand Reporter, do hereby certify that
4 prior to the commencement of the examination
5 MATTHEW M. SWETONIC
6 was duly sworn by me to testify the truth, the whole
7 truth and nothing but the truth.
8 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that the foregoing is
9 a true and accurate transcript of the testimony as
10 taken stenographicallv by and before me at the time,
11
place and on the date hereinbefore set forth. 12
I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither a 13
relative of nor employee nor attorney nor counsel for 14
any of the parties to this action and that I am neither 15'
a relative nor employee of such attorney or counsel, 16
and that I am not financially interested in the action. 17
________ 18 DIANA L. R. SENATORE, CSR
XI01397 19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Brody & Geiser (201) 738-8555 or (212) 732-0644
2 /- 00Q L12
/?/ 73
//ZZZSTCZ (SL> ZlAST/ rwr
Z aci sura that "any ci you have ao/'.ed yourselves, AS Z have ashed syseif, why has the asbestos industry seer.ir.cl; teen singled out as the pn.ta target for so ?any easuits by government, labor, the press, certain segments cf the medical profession, and by various environmental and consumer activist groups?
Why us? Can asbestos really he ail that had? \rt ,
she products wo produce truly going to kill millions of American as sees experts have predicted? Ci* is there some sort of .tefsri conspiracy afoot to destroy the iiceoocs industry?
The answer to the cuoction of "Why us- is Oath complex and simple. Cample* because it ;s a comb metier. of three interrelated Out separate factors, distal* because ouch of nne factors is, when csnsidirai by itself, rune ooviruo.
The three factors ere (lj aeJs-vuuns rous disease, (2) a spokismar. arose to champion the need -or dii.vitoi control.
3
and (3) a cornucopia f "*w govorr.-c.-.t agencies ve-a sec u? *.: control things thd; cause disease. tec us lock at each of these facts?* in turn.
first, there is no doubt that the inhalation of substantial amounts of asbestos con lead to increased rates c. various types of lung disease, including two forts of cancer. ~>ese are facts which cannct be denied, even if they do not apply in all circumstances and under all conditions# The medical literature is full cf solid evidence linking asbestos to disease. In my office, : have cn file mere t.tan 2,C3C medical papers dealing witn tne health risks cf asbestos an hundreds more are published ever/ year.
Secondly, the spreading of alarm ever the heal tit risk of asbestos has as its prime spokesman one of the most talented medical publicists of the age ---- 3r. Irving J. Selikcff if Sew Vor.Vs Xot:nt Sinai Hospital, Sot only ic Or. Selikoff
i*.
s
capable of arousing the ire and r.crai indignation of she nos conservative reporter or politician with his graphic dascnp: and predictions of the ravages of asbestos, but he has also surrounded hirself with a group of similar!'/ talented public! conscious associates who have carried the Mount Sinai nessage to the far corners of the naoion.
While Sr. Selikoff has, in his teal, unquestioned! painted a far darker picture than the facts warrant, vt should always re.ne.nOer an his defense that the insulation workers he has been studying for r.ore t.han a decade were and still are dying fron ashastos related disease a: an appalling rata. This wculi he enough to cloud any nan's thinking.
finally, in the past decade there has been a tranand growth in public and govarnnensai interest in envircnnantal, and occupational health .natters. This interest has been translated into a series of far-reaching laws affecting indust
in a aanr.es hitherto unknown an this or ar.y other country. I believe is is accurate to say chat these r.ev laws, susr. a*, the Occupational Safety and Health Act* the Clean Air Acs, she Cor.sur.er Protection Act, and others* have forever altered the concept o; sne free enterprise syste.n as it was known in this country for a hundred and fifty years.
thus* in corbinaticn, these three factors created *
a situation in which a cadre of freshly created federal ager.ci. with strong statutory authority, were prodded into assi?nin? priority status so asbestos by ;r. Selikcff and has followers* who used and in sene cases r.isused the $raas wealth of .negative asbestos-health data contained in the radical literature to achieve these ends.
In short* the asbestos industry was singled out because it was vulnerable to attack* because there was sosecne willing* alr-ost an:uouu, to laad that *stuck, and because Congress had graciously provided the vohidan for such or. as3au
Hcw suc." cd what -r. 3 o 1 a o: d says uncus astisc; true, and the r-inner in vr.icn ha has abused tr.e available data in order so ilew up an essentially occupational probl into a national calamity are assies which we shall examine hit I*tar.
The iucfcsround cd industry eddorss to deal with ti asbestos-health problem as a national issue sees bach near!) a decade, to Zz. SeiiJcdd*`.s now .famous 1364 seminar on ashes disease at the New YOrfc Academy of Sciences. While this sem. did mush to prich the induotrv* s conscience shout asbestos a. veaish, the problem still remained one of Halted public and press interest until around 1357, vnen the madia ba*an beat! the asdics! bushes searching dor stones that weuld $raphioa portray American industry's supposed complete disregard dor the environment and dor the health and sadoty od its workmen and the Am* ns an public. The actecscc-health problem was do-
\ *
7
zo he tailcr-nada 5c r such scenes and Cr. Saline!: was r.zz veSita.tt in catering to one sensationalist whins or the press X4 4 result/ starting with ?aul 3rcdaur's infamous Hsu I'orxar article of March 1363/ ashescos has since grown into an item of rajc: cress interest.
In those years, industry efforts to ccnhat the spat* of negative press articles on asbestos were carried oa primar: hy the Johr.s-Har.viila Corporation/ which sat up a tasX force of specialists in various fields to do what it could to portra she prod lea in its proper perspective, While sera manor successes were achieved, it was found that no one company acti indaper.deatly could adequately or effacsivaly represent an er.t Industry in dealing with the press and wish government cfficii
As a result/ in late 1370/ eight companies gathered : New VorX City to launch the Asbestos Information Association of North America, wnich was frankly patterned after the 5rstis
Asbestos Indcrmation Commactee, which ;*ii teen established seme tt.se ''ears earlier.
Zr. our original concept, the Association would lint activities to providing accurate, unbiased ir.dsrmaticn or. asbestos and health to tr.e cress, to eta public and to interest politicians and otter government ofliicais. It must be rasemse. that at this particular time, the enormous problems that would later develop with regard to OSKA and other federal regulatory agencies were as yet on the distant horiaon and basically
fortunately --- and properly -- the Association has had the wisdom to alter its original limited concept oi its
reper unctions, and r.ow endeavors to assume whatever activiti and responsibilities it deems necessary to protect the interests 6i the asbestos manufacturing industry m the United ssates
3
from cur rathe
v
* r-- -
A
s cc
eh a Association has g
in eha last tvo years into an
organisation with tri
es in eight .ta;or fields a; er.dsavo
These are:
Medical Affairs
Legal Affairs
Government Affairs
Environmental Control
'
Publicity and Public Relation*
Customer Relations
Employee Relations, and
Inter-industry Relations
'
,, .`
In briefly discussing ALA activities in each of thas
fields, 1 will leave government affairs for last, noe decease
it has a low priority within the Association --- in fact it is
currently the nest Important -- hut because it is the most
complicated and requires the rcast discussion.
r_i
- ;o -
To take our activities one at a tins char. medical affairs.
Zt is an chvious fart that if an organisation is t
speak authoritatively on a medical matter, it must not only 1
seeped in on* literature of chat particuiar radical subject, Our in ruse also keep itself cor.Aoar.oi-/ inferred of new disco and deveicprer.es. This we have accomplished in a number of v ros example, by sending representatives to important medical meetings, such as the 1972 international conference on the biological effects cf asbestos held at lycn in Trance, which sponsored by world Health Crganitataon.
,Soth John :ursh, the President of the AZA, and 2 attended that conference or. behalf of the Association.
We also meet on an irregular Oasis with various red experts In the field, doth from the United States and abroad, to review and discuss recent daveiccr.ar.es and cisccverias.
.1
-u-
Our literature research is eased zcr.siiarzz'.y py receiving the monthly medical paper distributicn 0: the Inscacute of Occupational and Snvironmenrai Health i- Montreal, which is funded by the Quebec Asbestos Minin? Association.
This year, far the first cine, the AIA has elected :: sponsor medical research of its own. Currently underway is a
* . completely AIA/MA funded study of chest sounds, which is being conducted by Sr. Raymond Murphy of the Harvard School of Public Health. The purpose of the study i3 to find a haw method of determining an individual's potential susceptibility to asbastc disease.
The Association has also recently decided to contnbu to soae very exciting research into a possible cure for Bosotholiofih through electromotive treatment. This study is being conducted at Somerset Hospital in Mew Jersey.
In the legal affairs area, the Association particapat an ar. amicub ourai capacity in the law suit brought by the
u
Industrial Union Department of the Ari/CIC against the Occupational Safety end Health Administration on the asbestos standards. In cur irsof, which was considered hy the Justice Department to he the test one filed, the Association supported OSKA against the IVI, somewhat of a unique position for an ' industry to find itself in vis-a-vis a. governmental regulatory- agency. Oral argument on the case vas held April 4 in Washington. While a decision has yet to he handed down by the Court of-Appeals, we are confident that the case will he decided in our favor.
Che Association has retained the services of C. 1. Sheckier, with whom many cf you are familiar, as our special consultant cr. environmental control affairs. At the present time. Cliff is working with the ACA/^A Environmental Control Suh-Cceaitteo on the development of a senes of five Association compliance manuals on the OSKA standards. We expect to have these manuals available within a short cenod of time.
\
12
iass year, because of the veil established u.nreliaov*.;. of the se.-ihr.uie filter method as a monitoring tool is she asbest industry, the AIA undertook she sponsorship of a study at a research laboratory is California to determine the efface of certain variables cr. the overall accuracy of the method. ?he results of the stuoy shoved as errer factor of plus or sinus 50 per cent under oho nose favorable of measuring conditions# these results were sent to doth CSKA end to the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health. A number of the recommendations contained in the study for improving the accuracy of the sethed have seen incorporated into a scca-tade-released revised KIOSK operations manual on fiber counting.
In the customer relations area, the total effect of negeeive press publicity and government regulations on industry customers is stall today rather poorly defined. So;r.e menders of the Assccaation have reported serious prcalema in this area, while others have experienced fee nr no difficulties thus-, far.
i
L(l
- :j -
Vhere sustcner procie.r.s bo *xast, they -crraily fai.
ir.so one cf five categories
rirst, the cuscc.ner has thcrcugniy investigated his
situation and has found chat ha can no longer afford to css
using asbestos cr asbestos-containing products, either because
the cost of ccncrol is too high or because he would have ts
,'
_
p
raise the price of his product to a level that*would make is
nc.fcc.T.ceticive with non-asbestos containing substitutes.
Second, the customer has not thoroughly investigated
his situation and only thinks that he can no longer afford to
continue using asbestos.
~wird, the customer has read cna or r-ora negative
articles on asbestos in the public press end has .node the snap
decision that "we ought to gee that dangerous stuff out of cur
plant." 0fen, decisions of this nature are forced on to?
cur.agc.cent by ill-inforsed .tedioai advisors or safety and .
health directors.
four/ '"s customer has neither i control problem nor is h particularly afraid cf using asbestos in his own plant* However, he is fearful tnat chose of his ccmpecioiors whose finished products do not contain asbestos will stress the adverse health effects of asbestos an crying to take business away fre.t him. Customer fears cf this nature are essentially `gut" reactions and hense extremely difficult to deal with. And .
rive, the customer has nene of these problems or-fears but he has been advised by a government official or inspector that he would be better off if he quit using asbestos or asbestos* containing products in has plant. While this problem does not appear to be widespread, we have learned ef a number of situations where it has occurred. Actions of this nature by government officials are totally uncalled for and should bo dealt with promptly and decisively. The best solution is to cbtaan complete details on the incident and then to register a formal complaint
la -
with the offending official'* immediate superior cr with the
government agency involved. The Association's first reaction ts the overall
customer relations problem was to approve funds for a series
of four regional seminars at which industry customers would
be given a number of basic presentations on the various aspects
* * ' .
of ths asbestos-health problem. The seminars were tentatively
scheduled for the Sprang of this year.
However* the experiences of a number of cur member
companies showed that general catchall type seminars of the
type originally contemplated would not be effective in dealing
with the majority of customer relations problems, In order to do the job properly* it was found that customs r presentations
have to be tailored to the needs and problems of the individual
customer.
17
As a res..?, the Associate.-. cancelled its scheduled series of ser.1r.4rs and instead elected to develop
a number of packaged slide presentations or. suer. topics as "The Facts About Asbestos and Health,* and *'Jnders tar.dir.? tr.e C HA neguiacicr.s," which could be used by member companies as part of a tailored presentation to individual customers. These slide presentations Are still in the works, | but should be available shortly.
As with customs? relations, the Association feels that employee relations is a prosier? best handled by the individual member companies. Thus far, the AI.Vs sole contri bution in this area of industry concern has been to prepare the draft of aa employee Safety and Health Guide cn AsbestosHealth* The draft was made available to the member companies for their own use and at least one, Sayhescos-Manhattan, has produced it in booklet form for distribution to all its employe'
I personally believe that the employee relations aspect c: che asbestos-health problem is cne that has beer, sorely neglected by most companies within the industry. : feel tha ehis could develop into a aa;or problem area in the near fur and that steps should to taken now to deal with it. We know that Sr. Seiikcif and various organised labor groups are planning a full scale campaign to bring their interpretation
*e of the asbestos-health problem to the attention of asbestos industry employees throughout the nation. If the industry permits this interpretation to be disseminated unchallenged. the consequences could be grave indeed.
13
I.tter-if.dustry relations ^re best defined as keeping
thft industry interred about important new developments cn the
governmental, medical and cress relations fronts that affect
ij5es:3J. This is accomplished wit.Mr. the AIA by periodic
distributions c: documents and information to the aerie?
.
companies end to others cn cur mailing list.
.
The value of this activity car. be gagued by that our overall mailing list increased from approxima taly a dotea mms in 1371 to acre then ad a year later, tfhi le we have hod to trim tna list somewhat this year for iagis
- 20
reasons, ve assume from the freguer.t rocuasto w 5sol 1 recei so be pis,ssd on the list that the material ws send out is be; read and is of considerable value to those receiving it.
Next to government affairs, our public relations an publicity aotitities constitute the single largest consumer of time, effort and money within the Association. Those of yc who are f miliar with the treatment that asbestos has been * receiving in the public press ovor the years can readily
undersea?..i why this activity ranks so high on our priority lis
What you may net understand are the reasons why cur extensive efforts in dealing with the nation's press have been so unsuccessful to date in producing the theoretic balanced* or * pc s i ti v e" story or. asbestos and health.
- 21 -
?>.e simple fact is chat frcn the standpoint oi tcdey's your.? activist rapcrcar, industry is the bad guy# and ^.. caching ve do, say or achieve ext aver change this impression. I * ve spend S1C0 million dollars on environmental control# the press aisSsf says w ought to have done it tan years ago or that we should have spent 2QQ Bullion. Id we sponsor medical research# they say we are trying to buy favorable 'results. Id we are opposed to ridiculously stringent standards# they say v are in favor of letting our employees die.
A television executive in Minneapolis described this new breed of reporter as being "so intent on demolishing the establishment that they would blindly destroy the credibility of the media in the bargain," Another tv executive# this else in Chicago# stated "they wane to make moral and political and social judgments on their assignments and then take sides. Sever mind getting the facts straight.
22
Aa a result of this * industry' is a .rr.rr.znr* pdiicsc
asbestcs'vill regain a hot news item J.7 en 2nc o_s tie news
is Sad. The "seed* that asbestos does in pozcActc.rg lives an
property is of no concern to the press.. InteviM!* tzdzstry
efforts to protect workmen and the getesrai cwit">2i.c dma aabest
exposure will always be given sinissi danrosses*,. * sssd
indorsation is directly contrary to ti* jsrsiuir an? an
Irresponsible industry producing a
Las- ycntnxt: tint, is
the sole element of news worthiness ir. tea: aacessrsa rtozy.
The press relations battle vo.11 ti.3stdir.-3 ha ven,
not when the media- starts to print post-
articles ab out escescos, but when tne c;rans oe?Sji to print anything about asbestos at ell. As lco-r &s .tsgrrz.'.Te news on
aaboscshea.ith continues to ie genertzaid, tie .Tuadda will
continue to eat it up. The media wall rzly cease to carry
.such stories when the generation of nt-gciziu*# news caatea
22
It 1* 43 siaole 4S that, Positive or UUr.cei s:c:us *rs a chimera, since they ire, by definition, not newsworthy.
let as ?ive you 4 vary specific example of this Ias
principle la action. As most oi you already knew, the
Association is currently er.?iod la an extensive campaign to interest the trade press la articles on the benefits of asb as and cn industry accomplishments ia the environmental control area The trade eras*., unlike the national or public media, is much acre receptive to articles of tnas nature and vq expec to ba seeihp 4 .number of positive stories la the trade tress la the next few tontbs. Ia any case* wo else from tire to tamo put out press releases on various subjects relating to asbestos-health. a few weeks *$0/ ws issiCred a release on the report of ana advisory corset on asbestos cancers of the World Health Crpanibasion. in brief, tbs resort concluded that aba general public is not ia d&ftca? frou asbestos ia tbc environment, thus far, wa have
- 24 -
received nearly two dozen press clippings iron trade puhlioati that carried tho story. To the best of cur knowledge, not 4 newspaper, news ragasins, radio cr TV station, or any other segment of tbs public .tedia ran the story, with the single exception of a rrenc.n language paper in Toronto* As 2 said before, if the r.ews is good, the press ain't interested.
Nonetheless, the Association has no intention of abandoning our efforts vis-a-vis the national' ced-ia. We will continue to issue appropriate press releases, cooperate with feature writers coon? stories on asrestos., write scathihg letters to tbs editor vben those stones appear, and in short, do all ve can eo present tha press with a balanced view of ' the asbestos-health situation.
Our nast recent effort in this regard has been the preparation and printing of an Asbestos and Health Infcmatlcn Pile, which wc have sailed to scr.a 3,CC3 newspapers, nagarir.es
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in Chicago as well as with Matt Swetonic of Hill and Knowlton/NYC who is well aware of Dr. Enterline and his research, the creation of science advisory boards, and is completely familiar with the asbestos as well as fiberglass issues.
Swetonic worked for 15 years in this area and knows the players in the asbestos battle as well as the fiberglass issue. Swetonic said, and we agree, that a panel separate from TIMA would lend more credibility than an industry group trying to repudiate Enterline's findings or offer commentary on any future research findings.
Prior to the formation of the board, its role and mission or objective would be determined. Its mission statement would include a concern for general health and safety and stress the group's interest in maintaining a totally independent body for review of all research methodology.
We suggest a board of perhaps five'members from a variety of specialties. A three-year contract: would help to ensure the independence of the group. The advisory board budget could be created to allow for the hiring of additional experts if needed. A TIMA representative such as Dr. Anderson could serve in a non-voting, advisory capacity.
We suggest that TIMA might consider establishing a special grant to fund this panel and its work with the administration of the program being handled through a respected third-party/independent agency (such as the Cancer Research Institute).
This group could review, on a regular' basis or sporadically, any significant research dealing with the issue of mademade thermal fibers or related issues. This independent team could have a great deal of credibility by virtue of its third party administration.
The agenda for this advisory board could establish a 30-day
period in which TIMA could react to and express concerns to
the board on its review of each project. After that 30-day
period, the advisory board would pe free to release its
results.
*
Hill and Knowlton can call upon its research capabilities to reveal many well-known and highly respected individuals in the scientific community who would be potential board candidates. This list would draw upon those with
specialities in safety and health, environment, occupational disease, cancer, toxicology, medical, epidemiology, etc.
It is estimated that putting together a ;.carefully selected group could take a month or two. Not only would this involve preparing the list of potential candidates and
making contact but there also would be the preparation and distribution of background material.
An alternative approach to the advisory board could be a
larger board of specialist/consultants with expertise in a
variety of specialties who could be called upon for specific
tasks, such as reading specific pieces of research and
offering commentary. Individual honoraria would be involved
for each task.
.
trade pubii cations, radio end TV stations, scisr.c* writers etc.
across the United States. I have trought a haid-doren files
along with "a that yen can taXe a loch at adter the seeding.
Basically/ the file contains copies cd the dive industry
position papers which were distributed earlier, as well as a
number oi important medical papers and a pair od photographs
illustrating the henedits or asbestos and industry efforts at
environmental control. You say be interested to know that
the itaa chosen to illustrate the benefits of asbestos is a
fire-orcof asbestos suit.
while we don't expect our indomution file to change the whole attitude of the press toward asbestos, we are hoping that the
media will sake usa of it to. accurately resort the industry's
position when doing stories on the subject.
And now, having heard the bad side of the public
relations problem, it's tine for the good news.
u
Knd the good news is .... despite ail the nsgativ
a-ticias on asoestos-health that have appeared in the press
ova? the past haii-dose.n years, vary Jew people have been
ir.g attention. let me explain.
In February, the Association undartcok a personal
interview research survey d the American public to determine
u
its attitude toward asbestos and its awareness d the healt
issue, the survey was conducted by the Opinion Research
Corporation during Marsh and April, More than 2,CCC
derograghioally selected Americans were interviewed. 1 have
here with se sufficient copies
all od you od a sumary
od the results.
( CCJCifN? FROM 5 CMMARy }
8dore going on to describe cur activities in the
government relations area, X think it night Oe interesting
at this point to take a very dried look at the manner in
27
which Or. SeliXoif end his suotcrters have used his researcr.
results *3
and exaggerate she seriousness of she
asbestos-healsh problea. 2 have tv slides which point sms
out richer conclusively.
si::s :-------asssAacn data
Vhe firs: slide shews she actual results of Or. Selif>
four scrtality studies of asbestos workers. The nurhers ih *
parer.thesis beside she figures f:r total aurjser of workers
indicate those who have so far died iron all causes, the
percentage figures alongside she total number of deaths frea
asbestos!*, lung cancer and mesothelioma are based on the
total number of deaths from all causes, not on the number of
^ workers in the study.
The sost important study of the lot is cho second
from tho top/ showing the deaths froa asbestos-related diseasa
area? all members of the insulation workers union. regardless
23
of length of exposure. You will-oora ar.at 1* t*r zzzz <3;
hose workers who have di-id thus Jar ha*?e ia frrta r.a of
the three eshestss-relsted disease*.
These, then, are the fact* sr.
-words frcr..
This is what he knows frca his own is.**%sssg*tiisa-s,. scv let
us take 4 look at what he has done vats bmb iSsjoscaa as
order to draratire the problem.
-
.
5II22 2 ---- agp^r^?^
*'
This slide shows Or. SaiidsJE.''.s srasitrTioss tocta
asbestos-related deaths ih the c.\tis! asstrs. ^...hasut ^o-.r.g
into details. Or. Selikoif has arriv'asJ at hia toro-erta.or.s by
* the sir.pla procedure ci mulbiplyir.9 tr-e ^errarra^e of deaths
from asbestos-related disease among1 has insfciwtaim, workers by the total number of employees ih rha -eroira irsusary.
3
You will also .".ct e chat ha has raised his projected
death estimate so enorrtous heights over the past year by
simply increasing the base figure of employees exposed, while
s:;U retaihi.tg the prece.n tag nulsipiiar of 14 per cans being
experienced by the insuiat.ion workers.
night psi**- cut that this tactic, however improper
and deceptive, has been an enormous success since each '
raising of the estimate has earned Or. Selifcoff -correspondingly
grater coverage by the nedia. Ho finer example exists of the
total gullibility of the press chan the rar.ner m which
Sr. Seiikcff nanipulated and played on their prejudices to
gain publicity* I can readily envision the lot of then up
.
there at >:ounc Sinai laughing cheraseives silly over the ease
with which they baiaboocled the press with these trunped<-up
predictions.
'
33
Please don't $et me wrong, 9er.ti4r.en, 2 have little doubt. that the insulation workers are in fact dying as rapidly as Dr.. Seiikoff says they are. The problem is he has trar.aiat. their mortality experience to the rest of the entire industry, which is absolutely ridiculous.
i?r
In the first place, the estimated r.umber of employees in the industry is too high --- five tires coo high to be precise. Sven more important, according to an analysis by the Association of more than a cosen mortality studies, including these of Dr. SoliJcoff, cur prediction is that approximately
f 25,000 past and present employees in the asbestos industry
have died or will eventually die of asbestos-related disease.
a
This is less than one-thirteenth of Dr. Selikeff's mosc recent estimate. In addition, our figures show that 20 cf the 25,000 deaths -- or 80 per cent -- will occur among those in the insulation trades.
1.
-*
While these estimates should be reassuring to chcse
r.of us in che mining ar.d manufacturing areas of the industry,
ter.1 ' " ............. -- we should no: forget chac S,000 of our workmen are still going
" to die of asbestos-related disease and chat, ail things
tv
.L considered, there is absolutely nothing that we can do to '"5 *, _ *
prevent it. The only thing we can do is to clean up our
plants to assure that those entering the industry in the
future will r.ot have the'same experience. ' SZ.Z22 3 - - - -- - govt anMr:;? Acs:;crss
.
Within the past year and a half, the rain thrust of
Association effort has shifted to the government affairs front.
The principal agencies in Washington with which vo have been
dealing are, of course, the Occupational Safety and Health
Administration; the Environmental Protection Agency; the rood
and Orug Administration; the 3ureau of Mines; and, to a lesser
degree, the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health
and the .V4ti.or.-xl Institutes or Health, boon c: which Are
mainly involved in research efforts.
In addition,-a row weeks ago we were contacted by
the federal Trade Commission, which had received a petition
from the Center for Science in the Public Interest requesting
an investigation of consumer usee of asbestos for the purpose
of determining whether certain products ought to be labeled *m
as hazardous and whether warnings should be required on all '
advertisements for those products. On the basis of my meeting
with an investigator from the i'TC I would say that we have
little to worry about in this particular area.
sues -4 ---- csha
*
The Occupational Safety and Health Administration
has been of enormous concern to the industry over the past
18 months. As most of you already know, the Association
expended tremendous efforts during the six month period
- 33 -
leading to tha promulgation of last June's C3HA scar.carcs on asbestos. Z thir.lt it is a gauge of the effectiveness of the total industry involvement in this most crucial setter that of eleven mein requirements in the standards, the industry position was accepted totally by CSHA on nine of the eleven, cbouc fifty percent on a tenth, and totally rejected on only one,
Nov, of course, GSKA is planning to redo the standard
* .
package and ve are working closely with them on this project. The first step will be the formation of a IS men advisory committee eo review the current standards and any additional date and information that has bean developed in the year since the standards were promulgated. -
Working in cooperation with nina other trade associations, including your own, ve have selected four individuals as industry wide recosnendations to OSKA for the four so-called employer
\
34
spec* Oft Che advisory committee. The four poetic .selected
were Cuy CaOrieison, President cf N'icolet; Ike Weaver of
RaybescQs-Marsha.otift; Or. Fred ?undsack, Vioa President for
Research and Ceveiopment cf Tchns-Manvilia; and Cliff Sheckier
In discussing the formation of the advisory committee
with John O'Neiil of che OS HA Standards Development Section,
we were asked to add a couple of names to the list so that
CSKA would have at least the seaOlan.ee of a selection. This
we have agreed to do.
'
The committee will he given up to nine months to
complete ti* deliberations and prepare for CSKA a revised
standard package. This wall he followed Oy public hearings, .
approximately a year from now. We do noe expect to see a
new standard promulgated before the Fall of 1374.
25
It is of course impossibla to determine 4; this tire
whoo the raw standards will look like, however, I would ver.cur
co say chat they will certainly not be less strict chan one
ones we have coday, although they will probably be less
c0r.iusir.-5 and leave less roc fa; employer interpretation.
Something will unquestionably be done to iaprove the current
difficulties with the monitoring req' uirements. SLITS 5 ------ HICSH
.
These slides, by the way, are merely simplified
organisation marts of the various agencies with which we deal
in Washington.
?ho main function of the national Institute for
Occupational Safety and Health is to conduct research and to
prepare so-called Criteria Packages, which are essentially
reccsmandacicns to CSKA for standards on various materials
and chemicals. Such a package on asbestos was prepared
26
ty NICSH AC the tire of the OSHA proceedings List year. ><T 13 3:-i will *ac be preparing 4 new or revised criteria package for the upccring review of the asbestos standards.
; do not relieve it would be unfair to say that of all the agendas in Washington dealing with asbestos/ Cr. SeliXoff has had his greatest influence on the young Idealistic scientists and doctors at NICSH. Consequently/ ,, industry influence is weakest in this agency. It was MI053, after all* that made the original reccrtcendacicn for a two fibar standard in the asbestos industry.
SL1ZZ 6 ---- Z?A Mext to CSHA, the Snvirensental Protection Agency ha the greatest potential of any federal agency for adversely affecting the future of the asbestos industry in this country. Xot only is the IPA. responsible for developing and enforcing air and water pollution standards, but the Toxic Substances
37
Control. Act, r.cw pending in Congress, will rise become an s?.\
function after passage.
Tor ;?.ia reason, I an pleased to be able to say that
the asbestos industry has an excellent relationship with the
Z?k. so finer proof of this exists than the fact that there
was not a single na;cr industry recommendation or suggestion
aade to the SPA at the public hearings on the proposed asbestos
emission regulations that was not accepted either in toto or
`
in principle in the final standards, which were published in
early April of this year.
`
We are presently working with the SPA on the development
of waste water effluent standards for asbestos manufacturing
plants.
fully expect that these standards will turn out
to be as reasonable as the air pollution regulations. The
proposed effluent standards are sehadulcd to be published in
the Federal Register in early -uiy, This will be followed tv `
33
public hearings, probably in late July cr August, wit.", the final standards being promulgated in the fall# perhaps as early as October
We are also planning, in the near future, to meet in Washington with representatives from the standards development and er.fr rearer, t hrinches of the 5?A eo discuss with there questions of interpretation and compliance policy with regard to the r.ew air pollution.regulations.
w< have already resolved cna interpretation question that is of special interest to the assesses textile incustry. Approximately two weeks ago 1 was asked by a member company of the Association to find out whether the SPA was planning to require the manufacturers of asbestos safety clothing to register as potential emission sources under the lav.
t
--
In discussing she situation over she phene with Z?\ ccrr.piianca ciii.ci.ili, Z argued chat she producers of asiesecs safety clothing were not manufacturers as defined in the regulations but were instead only fabrication of an asbestos product, and as such, should not have.to register as potential emission sources.
After our phone conversation ended, a brief meeting ' *
was held among the ?A compliance people. X was then called hacit and inferred that they agreed with sa that the safety clothing producers should not be required to register.
Vfhll* this rather minor problem took approximately an hour and a half and two or tnrae phone calls to resolve,
it is ixidicacive of the type of day-to-day services that the Association provides for its member companies.
40
SHIS 7------ FOA Over the ?.isc year cha Feed and 2 rug Adflihiscracicn
has shown an increasing interest in as&estos as 4 possible hazardous contaminant in various foods, beverages and drugs. Lacs in 1972 eh4/ sac up an asbestos cask fores co review the sicuacion and co propose regulations and guidelines where, appropriate.
Thus far they hava concentrated chair ffores in. two araas --- on cha use of asbesccs-ccncaminacsd talc in food packaging and in ocs.-eac.ies, and seeer.il/, on tha uaa of asbestos caluiasa filcar pads in the beverage and drug industries.
In our first meeting with eha FTA cask forca lasc :Jovarr on cha filcar problem, chay demonstrated an appalling ignoranca shout cha health hazards of asbestos. Since then, thay hava gotten ona hack of & lot smarter, due ac lease in part so she tremendous amount of daea and information which
41
the Association has been supplying so them. As 4 c:r,sc
the 5*3* is today less panicky about asbestos ana thereto
less likely to propose foolish, unsupportabie regulation;
Spokesmen from the fSA have, in fact, defended the filter
against environmentalist attacks in the press and elsevhe.
recent months* 'This is, quite obviously, a healthy sign.
suss s ---- iNtrass? croups
Since our contacts with the National Institutes o.
Health have been quite minimal, and since the health and
safety section of the 3ureau of Mines is presently bean?
reorganised, we can now proceed to take a brief look at the *_
various interest groups that have been in the forefront of
the assault on asbestos. - These are the groups and crqanira;
that constitute *che other side.*
As you can see, there are a lot of them, and between
thca they can exert powerful pressure- on legislators and
administrators at all levels of government.
.
s
42
Since time is not available to discuss each of their
Activities and philosophies in detail, I would like to say
eMt we keep a close waecn on all of them and are always
-
prepared to take whatever action is appropriate when they
step out of lino.
' 51131 paaircTOR err------ ugh? oh
Our activities in the area ' of Congressional relations have been quite minimal to date, although we are preparing for
the upcoming struggle in Congress over workmen's compensation
- reform legislation, at which time asbestos is unquestionably
going to be racked over the coals by 9r. Selikoff and his
compatriots in organized labor.
Unfortunately, the Association has neither the manpower
nor the time to embark on a full-scale legislative information
program* We have met on occasion with the legislative and
legal assistants to various senators who have attacked asbestos.
m
I
however much more needs to be done in this are* end I e.T. efra id individual member companies ere going to have to be the prim* ball carriers end not the Association.
for essentially the sane reason# our government 'activities at the state and local level have declined to essentially zero over the past year and a half. This has not been too serious a deficiency as most of the authority of
** the cities and states in asbestos control has been usurped ' by the various Federal regulatory agencies. Nonetheless# more individual company activity is required at these levels of. government.
Zn conclusion# Z think we can all be justifiably
pleased with what we have been able to accomplish in the past fav years in resolving the cornucopia of interrelated problems that constitute the asbestes-health situation.
44
Cur plants are cleaner and our vcr:*;nen basssr protected. The general public has been shown to be in r.o danger frea asbestos* if it ever was. While we have been regulated extensively* for the .tost part oho standards that have been
\ developed have net been as bad as we feared they night be* and in sene oases they turned out far better than we ever dared hope. In addition, while we are still taking our luaps in the public press* the net effect of ell this adverse . publicity has been shewn to be surprisingly snail.
We have sweated a lot and we have groaned e lot* but we are still standing and we are still viable. I sense today within the industry a greater feeling ef confidence in the
e
future than at any tine in the past few veers. 3ut we must not rest contented
# '.
45
We cuso rsaa-ter that Sr. $cli:-:off has to data Seen
far 1*4* successful than our industry ha* an influencin? the
decision* of the various sovernaental reouietory agencies.
, Thi* will ask* hia try harder. Just last week X saw 4 speech
\
* of his in which h purpesely Rasineerpreted son* data by a
distinguish** tritash scientist in ordar to prove that *v*c
two fibers is not a sufficiently safe lava! for occupational
* ' * .
axposura to asbestos* . *
.
The stru??!* is far frea over. We oust not only
continue but indeed expand our activities in the various
areas of eonearn if we ere to assuro the future weli-bei&q
of the asbestos industry in the Unitd States*
Thanh you very ouch*