Document vYadvG3Ej47zRoz9K0QO7DGm

1 2 o: 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS BEAUMONT DIVISION **************************** **************************** * CECIL SCOTT, ETAL VS. ** CIVIL ACTION ** NO. B-84-1103-CA MONSANTOCOMPANY * ,* **************************** **************************** VOLUME III VIDEO DEPOSITION OF PAUL G. BENIGNUS 12:48 p.m. to 3:12 p. m. May 28, 1987 Ramada Airport inn St. Louis, Missouri Reported by: Linda C. Baker Texas CSR No. 505/Notary Public Nell McCallum & Associates 2900 Smith, Suite 104 Houston, Texas 77006 (713) 523-3767 Taxable Cost: $ Charged to: DAVID M. LACEY, State Bar No: Attorney for: Plaintiffs ESQ. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024657 2 1 APPEARANCES s 2 For the Plaintiffs; 3 DAVID M. LACEY, ESQ. Gilpin, Pohl & Bennett 4 Allied Bank Tower, 23rd Floor 1300 Post Oak Boulevard 5 Houston, Texas 77056 6 For the Defendant: 7 WALTER J. CRAWFORD, ESQ, 8 and CHERYL D. OLESEN, ESQ. 9 Wells, Peyton, Beard, Greenberg, Hunt & Crawford 10 Petroleum Building Beaumont, Texas 77701 11 12 Videotechnician: 13 James Heironimus Executive Service Groups 14 15 16 17 Video Deposition of PAUL G. BENIGNUS, taken 18 on May 28, 1987, at Ramada Airport Inn, St. Louis, 19 Missouri, between the hours of 12:48 p.m. and 3:12 p. m. , 20 before Linda C. Baker, CSR No. 505 and Notary Public in 21 and for the State of Texas, at the instance of the 22 Plaintiff,.pursuant to Notice and the Federal Rules of 23 Civil Procedure. 24 25 ******** NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024658 1 I&BLB Qg CQMTSHTS 2 3 WITNESS: PAUL G. BENIGNUS - VOLUME III 4 5 APPEARANCES 6 7 PROCEEDINGS 8 EXAMINATION BY: 9 Mr. Lacey 10 WITNESS SIGNATUREPAGE AND JURAT 11 12 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 13 LAWYER'S NOTES 14 15 16 ******* 17 18 19 BENIGNUS EXHIBITS MARKED 20 21 1 - One-page list of prices of Aroclors 22 1016, 1221 and 1242, effective 1/1/71 through 3/1/76, with attached separate 23 sheet noted thereon as Exhibit A 24 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. 3 PAGE 2 4 5 135 136 137 A 100 STLCOPCB4024659 4 1 *** VOLUME III *** 2 3 4 PROCEEDINGS 5 6 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN: Okay. This 7 video deposition is being taken in 8 Cause No. B-84-1103-CA and is filed in the 9 United States District Court for the 10 Eastern District of Texas, Beaumont 11 Division. 12 The style of the case is Cecil Scott 13 versus Monsanto Company. 14 For the record, the video recorder is 15 James Heironimus of the firm Executive 16 Service Groups; and the Certified Court 17 Reporter present today is Linda Baker of 18 the firm Nell McCallum & Associates. 19 We're today to take the oral and 20 video deposition of Paul G. Benignus. 21 We're located at the Ramada Airport Inn in 22 St. Louis, Missouri. 23 Today's date is May 28th, 1987, and 24 the time is approximately 12:48 p.m. It 25 is a continuing deposition. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024660 5 1 At this time will Counsel now please 2 state their appearances for the record. 3 MR. LACEY: David Lacey, representing 4 the plaintiffs. 5 MR. CRAWFORD: Walter Crawford, 6 representing the defendant. 7 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN: And would the 8 court reporter please swear in the 9 witness. 10 11 12 ******* 13 14 15 PAUL G. BBNIGNUS, 16 having been first duly sworn, testified as follows: 17 18 SKAM1HATIQH 19 20 QUESTIONS BY MR. LACEY: 21 Q Mr. Benignus, when we were in my office in 22 Houston, we were taking your deposition. Correct? 23 A Right. 24 Q And we didn't quite get a chance to conclude 25 it. Correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024661 6 1 A Right. 2 Q And we've come back here to complete your 3 deposition. You are the same Mr. Benignus that I was 4 deposing in Houston? 5 A Correct. 6 Q And you understand you are still under oath? 7 A Correct. 8 Q Okay. I thinkat the point that westopped 9 your deposition last time, you were starting to talk 10 about the problem of contamination in dielectric fluids, 11 and I wanted to ask you some further questions about 12 that. 13 If I understood your testimony correctly, it 14 was quite important that dielectric fluids not have very 15 much by way of contaminants in them. Is that correct? 16 A That's correct. 17 Q And the reason for that isthat ifdielectric 18 fluids have contaminants in them, it will have an effect 19 on their electrical properties, which is the point of 20 making them. Correct? 21 A It if it's outside contaminants, yeah, such as 22 moisture. 23 Q Right. 24 Now, with regard to PCB-containing dielectric 25 fluids, of course, there was a problem that existed in NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024662 7 1 the 1960's wi th regard to the quality of the PCB 2 dielectric fluids made by Monsanto. Isn' t that 3 A I never heard of it. 4 Q I see. Let me show you a memorandum dated 5 April 26th, 1967, written by you to Mr. Vince Haupt at 6 Anniston and ask you if you recognize this Document 7 No. 9875-9876 (tendering). 8 Q Yeah, I recognize this without reading it. 9 Q Did you write it? 10 A Sure, I wrote it (tendering). 11 Q One of your concerns here was the problem of 12 being able to control the quality of the PCB products 13 that Monsanto made, and in particular with regard to 14 their ability to meet specifications. Isn't that 15 correct? 16 MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Benignus, be sure 17 you read the document. Take a close look 18 at it, if you would. 19 BY MR. LACEY: 20 Q (Tendering.) 21 A It says, "Overseas Shipments." 22 Q Uh-huh. 23 A Now, I'll answer your questions down the line. 24 But I know what this is about. I wrote it. It 25 has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024663 8 1 product. It has to do -- well, you ask the question. 2 Q Well, let -- let me just see if I can 3 understand -- 4 A I know what you'rereading. That's a -- that's 5 a humorous thing that Iwrote there, and I'm sure you're 6 misled by this. I appreciate this. 7 Q This was a joke? 8 A This is a joke. 9 Q I see. 10 A Now, if you want me to explain it, I will. I 11 know how -- I understand your quandary. 12 Q It's just a joke? 13 A It is a joke. It has -- well, if you wish to 14 question about it. I'll answer anything you want to 15 question. It is not a -- it has nothing to do with the 16 quality of the fluid. 17 Q I see. 18 A It has to do with overseas shipments, and I'm 19 addressing that they should look into the kind of drum 20 we're using. I imagine we get into discussing this 21 somewhere. I didn't read it all. 22 Q (Tendering). Well, let me see if I can 23 understand the background for this document. 24 A Fine. 25 Q Monsanto made PCBs in the United States. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024664 9 1 Correct? 2 A This is correct. 3 Q And within the United States, Monsanto supplied 4 almost all the PCBs that were used in the United States. 5 A This is correct. 6 Q Monsanto also sold part of the PCBs that it 7 made in the United States overseas. Correct? 8 A Correct. 9 Q Within the United States, there was very little 10 competition supplied by foreign manufacturers for -- 11 A This is correct. 12 Q -- the PCB products. Correct? 13 A Correct. 14 Q And the reason for that was that the cost of 15 transportation from a manufacturer overseas into the 16 U. S. made it very difficult for overseas manufacturers 17 to compete with Monsanto on price. Correct? 18 A This is correct, yes. 19 Q Now, Monsanto did try totell its U. S. 20 production in competition with others outside the United 21 States, did it not? 22 A This is correct. 23 Q There were other companies that made PCBs in 24 Japan and in Europe. Correct? 25 A This is correct. NELL NIC CALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024665 10 1 Q Within the United States, because there was 2 virtually no competition for Monsanto, as long as the 3 product met the minimum qualifications it would be an 4 acceptable product to the customer. Correct? 5 A It had to meet the specifications, which were 6 standardized worldwide. 7 Q Now, outside the United States, where you were 8 selling in competition with other companies overseas, a 9 customer might decide between buying a Monsanto PCB 10 product and a non-Monsanto PCB product, depending upon 11 which was the better product. Correct? 12 A That's not correct. They were synonymous. 13 They were the same. 14 Q I see. 15 A And you're getting into a comparisonof the 16 inherent characteristics and quality of the product. 17 And that is not what this address- -- what this is 18 addressed to. 19 Q I see. 20 A It is --you're correct. It doesdeal with 21 shipping product overseas. 22 Now, I'd like to have -- this -- as I told you, 23 this is a -- this doesn't give any of the physical 24 constants or anything else. I know what this is about. 25 I wrote it. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024666 11 1 Q Well, let's see -- 2 A It has to do with the package; the package 3 going overseas. This is the subject matter. 4 Q Well, you -- 5 A Now -- 6 Q -- you talk about in this memo, do you not, 7 that overseas business is hard to get because other 8 people can buy from your competitors easily 9 (indicating)? Is that correct? 10 A Oh, I would certainly agree with that. 11 Q And you say in particular, "It's not like our 12 domestic affairs, where we don't have to meet 13 competitive quality." Correct? 14 A That's what itsays, yes. I told you, in 15 essence, this is a -- ajoke here. 16 Q A joke? 17 A Now, if you want to get into the technology of 18 this, this is something quite -- if you wish to discuss 19 that, okay. 20 Q Well, this memo deals with Aroclor electrical 21 quality -- 22 A Yes, it does. 23 Q -- of overseas shipments, does it not? 24 A Yes, it does. 25 Q And it was talking about a problem that you NELLMCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. . STLCOPCB4024667 12 1 really had back in 1967, wasn't it? 2 A No. I don't call this a problem in quality of 3 the -- of the dielectric fluids, no. 4 Q You said -- 5 A Let's -- let's face it. The quality of our 6 material, the intrinsic quality of our material, is 7 synonymous with the French, the -- that made in Britain, 8 in Germany, and what have you. 9 Q Why don't you just read for me Points 1 through 10 6 into the record, so we'll have them; what you said. 11 A Well, I told you, this is a joke. 12 Q Well, why don't you read them to me. 13 A Well, all right. 14 "We have high electrical specifications on 15 overseas shipments set -- set arbitrarily, but without 16 assurance they could be met." 17 Q Would you read the next point? I just want you 18 to -- 19 A "We have a quality control program, but no 20 control of quality," on the shipments overseas, en 21 route. 22 "We have official electrical test procedures 23 but get all kinds of answers on the same production 24 batch." 25 Q Would you read the other points? There's three NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024668 13 1 more there. 2 A "We know a lot about the idiosyncrasies of the 3 electric characteristics of Aroclor, but we don't know 4 what contaminants in our production and handling 5 environments are the offensive factors." 6 "On occasion we hit the competitive quality 7 specs, but we don't have anything to put our material in 8 capable of holding these values." 9 That is what I'm addressing in this. 10 Q What's the last point? 11 A "We now have considerably more overseas 12 customers than domestic, but it is not easy to brainwash 13 them in Portuguese, Spanish," and so forth, meaning 14 talking to them. 15 Q Now -- 16 A I don't know Portuguese and Spanish. 17 Q Now, let me stop. 18 A All right. 19 Q You say Point No. 5, you were -- you were 20 telling the truth? Those were the true facts? 21 A Absolutely. 22 Q Is Point No. 6 true? 23 A I can't speak Portuguese and Spanish. And to 24 converse overseas with people in a foreign language is 25 difficult; it's cumbersome. NELLMCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024669 14 1 And we're talking about a will-o'-the-wisp 2 here, a -- an -- almost a myth. Specifically, David, 3 we're talking about volume resistivity and power factor. 4 Q Is Point No. 4 in the memo true? 5 A All right. We don't know what contaminants and 6 handling environments are the offensive factors. David, 7 we're talking -- this is what I was looking for. It 8 gives the subject; here it doesn't give the subject 9 (indicating). 10 Q It does up at the top, doesn't it; "Aroclor -- 11 A "Electrical Quality." 12 Q -- Electrical Quality"? 13 A All right. Let's give it a subject. The 14 subject now is going to be the power factor or 15 dissipation factor and the volume resistivity. 16 Now, to begin with, there's no official 17 specification on the power factor, because it is too 18 much a -- almost a myth, these high power factors that 19 we expect the material to have. 20 It's so critical, so sensitive, the very 21 undefinable, minute traces of contaminants, that we 22 can't even manage to have a power-factor specification. 23 David, if we had the product in here and you stuck your 24 finger in it, that would ruin the power factor. 25 Now, here we're talking about shipping NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024670 15 1 overseas. There is -- I wish I had the specification. 2 You will find a volume-resistivity specification. We're 3 talking about a volume resistivity, something on the 4 order of ten to the ninth times power ohm centimeter. 5 Now, that is a tremendous amount of resistivity. 6 Now, what was happening here is that when we -7 Q Now, I don't want to interrupt you, but we're 8 not going to finish today if you don't answer the 9 question and -- 10 A I know you're not, David. Will you accept this 11 as -- 12 MR. CRAWFORD: Well;let -- let 13 him -- let him explain it, at least. 14 MR. LACEY: Well, I would like at 15 least to have an answer to the 16 question as to - 17 MR. CRAWFORD: Well -- 18 MR. LACEY: -- whether these things 19 are true or not. 20 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, this is what 21 he's trying to tell you. 22 A David -- 23 BY MR. LACEY: 24 Q Yeah. 25 A -- this has to do with putting the stuff into a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024671 16 1 drum of extremely highly refined quality, in a -- a 2 what did I use? Will-o'-the-wisp thing? 3 We can't even have a power-factor 4 specification. All right. We've refined this 5 exceptionally high quality, as made. The material must 6 respond to this when the user refines it. That's what 7 is important in his plant. 8 Now, what I encountered here, David, is that I 9 suspected the competitors -- particularly the French, 10 and maybe also the German -- that they're overseas. 11 It's a long way from here to Australia. This speaks 12 about Australia. 13 This isn't the first time this subject came up. 14 I spoke to our people about that in the past. I felt 15 that our package for overseas shipment may -- should 16 have been of possibly a better construction. I felt 17 that our package -- maybe it would be the particular 18 seal used on the bone or the liners; that that may be 19 somewhat of a contaminating influence affecting these 20 very, very touchy, critical electrical properties such 21 as, David, when freshly made and refined. 22 If we had it here and you put your finger -- 23 I'm not comparing your finger to mine -- if I put my 24 finger in it, it would ruin it, and it would affect this 25 reading. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024672 17 1 This is a facetious way of getting attention to 2 our plant people that I'm not being as ornery as a 3 junkyard dog, yet I do understand the situation. I'm 4 asking them, "Wil 1 you look into our drum for these long 5 over- -- this -- -seas shipments?" 6 I don't speak Portuguese and Spanish, as I said 7 here. It's hard for me to explain this to the people, 8 And I'm having di fficulty talking about it right now, 9 David. 10 I'd like to -- I want to answer your questions. 11 It is a facetious way of approaching this subject: 12 "Will you please look into our drum package? I think 13 our drum may not be as good a drum package as the 14 competitor s'." 15 And as the result of it, I must have gotten 16 some feedback from a customer if -- I think it mentions 17 Australia; that the material arrived -- this is going 18 back many years. 19 I know it wasn't power factor. Nobody can 20 handle a power-factor specification. We didn't have 21 any. It's so touchy, so critical. 22 But volume resistivity, yes. So let's say the 23 spec on this was -- the specification was 500 times ten 24 to the ninth ohm centimeter. Maybe they read something 25 like 800 or a thousand times. When you put ten times NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024673 18 1 ten to the ninth, you get an awful lot of zeroes out 2 here. 3 All I'm telling you is this is a facetious, 4 humorous way, without acting like a junkyard dog or 5 raising hell with our plant: "Will you please give 6 some -- or at least look at our package to see if that 7 should be looked into." Yeah. Well, every sentence -- 8 you can tell at that is a -- 9 MR. LACEY: I'm going to - 10 A I'm'ra sorry, but -- 11 MR. LACEY: -- object to the 12 responsiveness of the answer. 13 BY MR. LACEY: 14 Q And I'm going to suggest what I'd like to do 15 iss,, to the eexxtent it's an answer, I'd like to try to 16 ask you soommee specific questions and -- 17 A All right. 18 Q -- and get you to give me the specific answer 19 to that question, so we can try to get this over with. 20 When you said in here, "we have a quality 21 control program, but no control of quality," was that a 22 joke, or is that a real - 23 A That's a -- 24 Q -- statement? 25 A -- joke, yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024674 19 1 Q I see. 2 ' When you said, "We have official electrical 3 A We had a very -- before I go farther, we had a 4 very efficient quality control problem. 5 Q When you said, "We have official electrical 6 test procedures, but get all kinds of answers on the 7 same production batch," was that true or was that a 8 joke? 9 A We had very strict specifications. And on 10 something like a power-factor measurement, it is easy to 11 get different answers; and this is why in this very 12 strict specification, as strict as it is, there is no 13 finite limit on power factor. 14 Q Okay. When you said, "We know a lot about the 15 idiosyncrasies of the electrical characteristics of 16 Aroclor, but we don't know what contaminants in our 17 production and handling environments are the 18 offensive -- are the offensive factors," was that true 19 or a joke? 20 A This is also -- it's both ways. 21 Let me tell you this: I don't know what the 22 salts are in your skin, as different from mine, David. 23 I don't. And we're talking about infinitesimal traces 24 of contaminants. It's -- it's a will-o'-the-wisp 25 subject we're dealing with here. NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024675 20 1 Q When you said, "On occasion we hit the 2 competitive quality specs, but we don't have anything to 3 put our material in capable of holding these values," is 4 that true or a joke? 5 A From the standpoint, if you will -- I was not 6 confident that the drum package -- not the quality of 7 the product; the drum package -- that we were doing 8 ourselves justice, from the standpoint I had reason to 9 believe that the competition may have had -- I wasn't 10 sure -- may have had somewhat of a superior container to 11 put it in that would to a greater degree control, 12 handle, maintain this will-o'-the-wisp electrical 13 characteristic that we're talking about, David. It had 14 nothing to do with the intrinsic character of the 15 product. 16 I appreciate your quandary, and I didn't know 17 it was going to be -- come out this way. 18 Q Well, let me show you another document. It's a 19 research and development report from the Anniston plant 20 dated May 5th, 1967 , by Mr. G. W. Miller, Document-9-83 9 21 through 9874. 22 In that document, Mr. Miller -- in the summary 23 of the document, he's just got a summary of the document 24 right there that's in two paragraphs. Would you read 25 that, please (tendering)? NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024676 21 1 A "Bayer Chloaphen A-50 is quite superior to 2 Anniston and WGK Aroclor 1254 in electrical properties. 3 This material as received exhibited a resistivity of 4 150,000 times ten to the ninth and thermal chemical 5 chloride stability of .27 parts per million. 6 "Japanese Canochlor 300 is also superior to 7 Anniston WGK Aroclor 1242 even though this material had 8 a 9,600 times ten to the ninth resistivity and a .08 9 parts per million thermal" -- or TC. "It is still 10 considerably better than any routine domestic production 11 in Monsanto operations." 12 Q Now -- 13 A This is signed by the -- Miller. 14 Q Who is Mr. Miller? 15 A He's the chief analytical chemist. 16 Q He another joker? 17 A Is he what? 18 Q Is this another big joke about the fact that 19 the Japanese and the German products are better than 20 Monsanto's products? 21 A This is not a joke. But do you understand the 22 difference between 9,600 times ten to the ninth ohm 23 centimeter resistivity versus 150,000 times ten to the 24 ninth ohm centimeter, David? 25 Q My question to you is: Is it true or false NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024677 22 1 that the Japanese and German made PCBs with better 2 electrical properties than Monsanto? 3 MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Lacey, don't 4 scream at the witness. 5 MR. LACEY: I'm not screaming at the 6 witness. 7 BY MR. LACEY: 8 Q Am I, Mr. Benignus? 9 A We're having fun. 10 Q Okay. 11 A To a mini-mini-mini degree, yes, David. He is 12 pointing out, yes -- it has no practical use, 13 significance, I assure you. And if we want to get into 14 the technology of this, I can. 15 Q Okay. Well, let's -- 16 A But he is saying this: He is the chief 17 chemist; and he is saying that he has found, no doubt, 18 by comparative analysis, that here -- it was Germans -- 19 150,000 times ten to the ninth ohm centimeter. This is 20 saying that the German quality is very high. 21 Now, I'll make a comparison that is 22 understandable. Our resistivity of 9,600 times ten to 23 the ninth ohm centimeter, David, that would have to be 24 rated -- and this is sensible; I'm trying to be 25 informative -- I would have to rate that A-plus. Okay. NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024678 23 1 Now, on this scale, Dav id, I'd have to say the 2 German stuff is A-plus, and we'1 1 put another plus on 3 there. When we get out to there , it is not of any great 4 consequence. 5 Q The Japanese -- 6 A But he is serious here. 7 Q Yeah . The Japanese got an A-plus-plus on 8 theirs, too, didn't they? 9 A The Japanese? 10 Q The second paragraph. He talks about Japanese 11 Canochi or is superior. 12 A Oh. All right. I woul d rate that -- well, 13 that wasn't a s high as the Germa n. Let's put that at 14 A-pi us. 15 Q So -- 16 A Now, wait a minute. Before we go on with 17 this our material often has these same values, David, 18 Q Well, let's get -- let's get down to serious 19 business. 20 A This is very high quality for someone shipping 21 it across the seas to us. 22 Q Let's -- 23 A Yes, it is. 24 Q Let's get down to serious business. Mr. Miller 25 was serious in saying that the German PCBs were superior NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024679 24 1 to Monsanto's in electrical properties. Isn't that 2 correct? 3 A In terms of volume resistivity, yes. 4 Q Okay. 5 A That is -- oh, excuse me. 6 Q I -- really, I -- without trying to go into all 7 the technical details, I just want to know whether he is 8 saying that German -- he's serious in saying that the 9 German product was better in its electrical properties 10 than the Monsanto product. 11 A No. This is not correct. 12 Q Not saying that. 13 A He is saying this in terms of ohm centimeters; 14 tnat he finds this tick superiority, let's call it, in 15 terms of ohm centimeters. 16 Now, that does not encompass the electrical 17 quality, overall electrical quality. 18 Q Well, I guess -- 19 A That is merely one feature of it. 20 Q Well -- 21 A He is saying that is very good quality. I 22 agree. 23 Q What is he actually says is, "Bayer Chloaphen 24 A-50 is quite superior to Anniston and WKG Aroclor 1254 25 in electrical properties." Those are exact -- his exact NELLMCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024680 25 1 words, aren't they? 2 A I agree to this. 3 Q It is true -- 4 A He is not an expert in the electrical 5 properties of a capacitor dielectric. 6 Q I see. 7 A Mr. Miller is not. 8 Q I see. He's just an -- a -- a -9 A He's an analytical chemistry -- analytical 10 chemist. He has run a volume resistivity. He finds 11 that the quality of the Japanese and the German is very 12 fine. I agree with that. 13 Q Not just very fine; superior to Monsanto's. 14 A Well, I won't go with that, no. 15 Q Okay. 16 A I will say that it is good quality material. I 17 must also say Monsanto's is good quality. 18 Q Okay. But as between the two, the German and 19 the Japanese were better quality, weren't they? 20 A No, they were not. 21 Q I see. And isn't it a fact -- 22 A They were not. 23 Q Isn't it a fact that it was that difference in 24 quality that prompted the writing of your memo of April 25 26th, 1967, that we've previously looked at. Document NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024681 26 1 9875 and 9876? 2 A All right. Now, we are coming down to this: 3 Here is evidence that the Japanese and the Germans have 4 indeed produced quality similar to ours. They have 5 indeed transported that quality and laid it down in his 6 laboratory at Anniston in a high order of volume 7 resistivity, as he reports there. 8 Now we get down to what I was really driving 9 at, David. Our package -- I am not sure, in terms of 10 this very high volume resistivity -- that's all we're 11 addressing here -- that we were able to put down in 12 Australia this unusually high volume-resistivity 13 reading; not that this has any definite significance or 14 import, as far as using the material is concerned. 15 Q The fact of matter is -- 16 A I want our people to see, with this as an 17 example, can they put it into a drum and ship it to 18 Australia and not lose this very high quality that we 19 made when we put it into the drum, but some unknown 20 infinitesimal ionic contaminate, no doubt, caused our 21 volume-resistivity value to drop; not out of 22 specification, because it's still times ten to the ninth 23 ohm centimeters, which is the important thing. 24 I am addressing our package. I'm using this to 25 get the attention of our people; look at our drum and NELL NIC CALLUNI & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024682 27 1 let's see do we need to do anything to improve it. 2 Q Mr. -- 3 A That is the story. 4 Q Mr. Miller is not talking about packaging; he's 5 just talking about analytical testing of the product. 6 A He's talking about a package that he received 7 and tested it analytically from Germany, and -- and one 8 from Japan. That's what he's -- 9 Q He's -- 10 A He received this. 11 Q -- not testing thepackaging,though. 12 A All right. No. He is testing -- 13 Q He's just testing the product that was in the 14 package. 15 A He is testing the volume resistivity. And I'm 16 impressd with this; not that it has any use, 17 significance, whatsoever. It impresses me with one 18 thing; that the German and the Jap was able to transport 19 over the sea, long trip, put into Miller's hand their 20 product with a very fine volume resistivity reading. 21 Q As a matter of fact, what was really being 22 compared was the quality of the material actually being 23 produced at Anniston by Monsanto before shipment 24 anywhere with the quality material produced by the 25 Japanese and Germans after it had been shipped to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024683 28 1 Anniston, Alabama. Correct? 2 A I'm not sure of this. no. I'm not sure. This 3 may be true. Now, I'm not sure of this; whether thi s 4 was it or not. 5 Q Well, you said -- just so I'm clear, you said 6 that what he did was to get the material that was 7 shipped to Anniston by them and compare it with 8 Anniston's production. Correct? 9 A Yes. I think that's what it -- what it does 10 say. It compares Pyroline and Chloaphen with Anniston, 11 with England, with Krummrich, and with the Japanese. 12 Yes, this is what it does. 13 Q And there's nothing about the shipping of the 14 product that's going to make it any better, is there? 15 A No, there isn't. 16 Q So what we know from that, then, is the 17 product, the electrical properties of the Japanese and 18 the German products as it came out of their plant, was 19 superior to the Monsanto products that Mr. Miller 20 tested. Is that correct? 21 MR. CRAWFORD: In those drums. 22 A No. In those terms that he's talking about -- 23 and I'm sorry, David; I don't think you have an insight 24 into what the significance of this term is -- 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024684 29 1 BY MR. LACEY: 2 Q Well, I'm trying to - 3 A -- and this is unfortunate. 4 Q I'm trying to get an insight into the fact that 5 the Japanese and the German were making a better 6 products, and that's what these documents say. And I'm 7 having a hard time -- 8 A I appreciate -- 9 Q -- with -- 10 A -- why you would have a hard time with this 11 thing, and -- 12 Q I -- 13 A Now, wait a minute; wait a minute. 14 Here -- ours is this (indicating). This is a 15 very high -- this specification is 500. We're way over 16 it. 17 This is over it (indicating). This is way over 18 it (indicating). This is considerably over it 19 (indicating). This is over it (indicating). These are 20 all excellent quality. 21 Now, if we're nitpicking hairs here -- which is 22 a waste of time, but if that's what we're doing -- yes, 23 this is higher than these (indicating). But you 24 don't -- this is at 100 degrees at a -- at a kilocycle. 25 It's ten times to the ninth power, which isn't showing NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024685 30 1 up here. 2 You add these -- ten to the ninth to all of 3 these, and you have very high order. These are all 4 excellent. 5 Q Let me ask a question. You say they're all 6 excellent. Correct? 7 A They're all excellent. Yes, they are. 8 Q And within that degree of excellence, the 9 German product and the Japanese product are somewhat 10 better. Correct? 11 A Within that excellent, on one item, which is 12 this volume resistivity; yes. 13 Q Okay. 14 A That's what the number shows, but it has no 15 significance. 16 Q Okay. Now, in order for those numbers to be 17 excellent, as they are for the Japanese and the Germans, 18 their product has to be excellent, doesn't it. 19 A I certainly say their product is excellent. 20 Q Their product cannot have any substantial 21 degree of contamination in it, can it? 22 A No. Neither does ours. 23 Q And, in fact, in order for them to get these 24 excellent results that are somewhat better than 25 Monsanto's, their product must have slightly less NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024686 31 1 contaminants in it than Monsanto's. 2 MR. CRAWFORD: Well -- 3 BY MR. LACEY: 4 Q Isn't that correct? 5 MR. CRAWFORD: -- let's be sure we - 6 we -- you define "contaminants." 7 THE WITNESS: Right. 8 A What kind of -- what are we talking about by 9 way of contaminants? 10 BY MR. LACEY: 11 Q Well, let me hand you a document, 25363, in 12 which David Wood -- do you know Mr. wood? 13 A Yes. He was at England, yes. 14 Q He writes a letter in October of 1975 to Robert 15 Stenger. Do you know Mr. Stenger with General Electric? 16 A No, I don't. 17 Q I see. 18 A Oh. Sanger is -- wait aminute. 19 Q It -- it's -- 20 A Let me see it. 21 Q Certainly. Take a look at the -- at the 22 document. 23 A Stenger. 24 Q Stenger. I couldn'tpronounce that. 25 A Stenger. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024687 32 1 Q And he lists some specific contaminants that 2 have been measured in Monsanto's dielectric fluids. Do 3 you see those there in that first paragraph? 4 A Yes. 5 Q You want to -- is chloro- -- I'm not sure I can 6 read it from here. 7 A Chloronaphthalenes, chloromethylnaphthalenes, 8 chlorinated methylbiphenyl, chlorinated dibenzofuran, 9 and unidentified, 60 parts per -- yes, these are parts 10 per million. I wasn't around -- this didn't come to me. 11 Q I understand. I just -- you asked me about 12 contaminants. Those chemicals that are listed in -- 13 A Yeah. 14 Q -- Mr. Wood's letter: Those would be 15 contaminants, would they not? 16 A But they have nothing to do at all, David, with 17 what we have been talking up to -- 18 Q Yeah. 19 A Thesehaveno bearing on power factor or volume 20 resistivity. 21 Q My -- 22 A Now you're in a different area. Can we agree 23 on that? 24 Q Let --well, let mejust askmy question. 25 A Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024688 33 1 Q Those chemicals that are listed in Mr. Wood's 2 letter. Document 25363, are contaminants in PCB 3 dielectric fluids, are they not? 4 A No. This talks about impurities in biphenyl. 5 Q That wind up in the PCB dielectric fluid. 6 Correct? 7 A Excuse me. I want to read it. 8 (Reviews document.) 9 It says here, "Identifiable materials present 10 in our biphenyl" -- that's biphenyl in England -- 11 "contributes to the presence in the polychlorinated 12 biphenyl mixture. The material of primary concern to 13 you are the following." 14 So he's saying the source of these are 15 impurities in the biphenyl, and they are filtering their 16 way down -- 17 Q into the PCB? 18 A -- into the PCB. This is exactly what he's 19 saying. 20 Q Okay. Now -- so my question to you is: The 21 chemicals that are listed in Mr. Wood's letter of 22 October 30, 1975, Document 25363, are chemicals that are 23 contaminants in PCB dielectric fluids. Correct? 24 A Whatever David Wood is talking about here, 25 whatever the -- that PCB fluid is, it -- this is what he NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024689 34 1 saysr David. 2 Q Those chemicals would be contaminants. 3 Correct? 4 A Well, this is what he is saying. 5 Q Yes. Well, would you agree that all of those 6 chemicals, if they're in a dielectric fluid, they're not 7 desirable chemicals, but, rather, contaminants? 8 A They are extraneous materials, yes. They are 9 not chlorinated biphenyl. 10 Q And you want -- you are trying to produce pure 11 chlorinated biphenyl for electrical purposes? 12 A This is -- now, wait a minute. You're pulling 13 in electrical. The inference -- again, the inference is 14 that they're -- you're inferring that these are 15 electrical contaminants. 16 Q My -- my question to you is: In producing PCB 17 for dielectric purposes, you want to have PCBs with no 18 contaminants in it. Correct? 19 A Yes. But these materials, David, would have no 20 effect on the electrical characteristics of this 21 material. 22 Q Well, let me ask about that, then. If I had 23 chlorinated dibenzofurans -- that's one of the chemicals 24 he lists. Correct? 25 A Yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024690 35 1 Q If I had chlorinated dibenzofurans in my PCB 2 product I was going to use for electrical purposes -- 3 A Yes. 4 Q -- at the rate of1,000 parts per million -- 5 A At a thousand? 6 Q At athousand parts per million. -- would that 7 affect its electrical properties? 8 A I can't answer that. 9 Q I see. 10 A I do not know, David. If I knew, I'd tell you. 11 Q Well, you -- you said that these don't have any 12 effects on electrical properties, and I was just trying 13 to find out if that's what you mean; that they don't 14 have any effect on electrical properties, or you don't 15 know. 16 A Well, let's put it -- I haven't measured it. I 17 wouldn't expect them to. 18 Q Okay. You would not expect -- 19 A I would not expect them to. 20 Q Okay. Fine. 21 A Not on the -- not on what we've been talking 22 about there, the volume resistivity. 23 Q Well, no. I'm -- 24 A I'm sincere -- 25 Q -- sorry. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. . STLCOPCB4024691 36 1 A -- in what I'm -- 2 Q No. 3 A -- telling you, David. 4 Q No. I don't mean -- 5 A I'm not fooling around here. 6 Q I don't mean to limit my question about the 7 effect of chlorinated dibenzofurans on electrical 8 properties of PCBs merely to the resistivity. I'm 9 talking about whether or not they are going to cause the 10 electrical properties of PCB dielectric fluids in any 11 respect not to meet specifications. / 12 A I -- not in these amounts. I would not not 13 expect it. Now, I have not investigated and researched 14 this.. I would not expect it. 15 Q I see. So the fact that PCBs met electrical 16 specifications at Monsanto would give you no assurance 17 about the quantities of these various chemicals that 18 might be contaminating them. Connect? 19 A You can't measure the quantity of these things 20 by running an electrical -- if that's what your 21 question -- 22 Q That is my question. 23 A No. You don't use a power factor or volume 24 resistivity to measure these things you're looking at. 25 Q Okay. Fine. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024692 37 1 A This is what we're driving at? This is -- 2 Q Well, that's my question. 3 A All right. We've answered it. y 4 Q Very good. 5 A You use other means. You use direct, very 6 sophisticated analytical tools -- 7 Q I see. 8 A -- not the powerfactor of resistivity. 9 Q So electrical tests of electrical 10 characteristics of PCBs are not a way to measure what 11 contaminants are there or in what quantities. Correct? 12 MR. CRAWFORD: Well -- 13 A They are, David, as I've been say ing. If we're 14 talking about power factor and we are look ing at the 15 contamination that influences the power fa ctor, we are 16 concerned about traces of ionic impurities , David, as 17 would be in your skin -- 18 BY MR. LACEY: 19 Q Okay. 20 A -- and in your hand and in my skin -- 21 Q Okay. 22 A -- and my hand, or in the environments that we 23 live in. As the prime example would be moisture, H20. 24 Okay? 25 Q Are chlorinated dibenzofurans an ionic pur- -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024693 38 1 impurity? 2 A Not in the terms that I'm thinking of. 3 Q Are chlorinated dibenzodioxins an ionic 4 impurity ? 5 A Not in the terms that water is an ionic 6 impurity, of course not. 7 Q Okay. 8 Now, from reviewing the information in 9 Mr. Miller's evaluation of Monsanto's electrical PCB 10 fluids -- 11 A Yes. 12 Q -- with the Japanese and theGermanproducts -- 13 A Yeah. 14 Q -- are you able to determine whether or not the 15 level of impurities generally in their product is 16 higher, lower, or about the same as Monsanto's? 17 A In terms of whatyou'retalking about here, 18 which you're comparing, which is the resistivity, I'd 19 have to say they're essentially the same. They are all 20 excellent materials, and the degree of contamination 21 from ionic impurities is really neither here nor there. 22 We're talking about infinitesimal, unmeasurable things. 23 Q Let me show you a letter dated February 23rd, 24 1973, written by Mr. Wheeler to a Mr. Wilbur Speitzer, 25 with -- is it Speitzer? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024694 39 1 A Speicher, I think. 2 Q Speicher. with -- with Westinghouse? 3 A Yes. All right. I know that name. 4 Q -- of which you received a blind copy, Document 5 25134 through 25136 (tendering). Did you receive a copy 6 of that letter, as shown on the enclosure or copy page? 7 A Yeah, it had my name on it. I assume I would 8 have received it. 9 (Reviews document.) 10 Q Let me ask you a couple of questions about the 11 letter, if I might. 12 MR. CRAWFORD: Were you finished 13 reading it? 14 THE WITNESS: Well, no. 15 A I -- I don't know that I need to read it all, 16 do I? 17 BY MR. LACEY: 18 Q I don't know that you do. 19 A Well, ask your question. 20 Q Okay. In this letter, Mr. Wheeler says to 21 Mr. Speicher, "It is no" -- I'm looking at the top of 22 Page 2 -- "It is no secret" -- and I'll try to look here 23 you. 24 A Oh. 25 Q "It -- it is no secret that a number of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024695 40 1 individuals within these agencies have proposed a 2 complete ban on the use of PCBs, including the use in 3 transformers and capacitors. Continued use of these 4 applications is currently allowed under restrictions 5 based primarily on action by Monsanto to prove that the 6 current quality PCBs manufactured in the United States 7 could be used with appropriate precautions without 8 serious industrial hazards and with complete protection 9 of the environment." 10 Do you agree with Mr. Wheeler's statement? 11 A No. 12 Q What about that statement do you disagree with? 13 A Well, that -- that puts a great deal on 14 Monsanto; and there's a lot of other things, people, 15 organizations, institutions. Government, and everything 16 else, behind this statement. 17 Q I see. So you think Mr. Wheeler is in error on 18 that point. 19 A I don't say that he is in error. I appreciate 20 what he he's trying to -- what he's trying to say 21 there. 22 I had nothing to do with this, and -- 23 Q Let me direct your attention to the third 24 paragraph on this page, where Mr. Wheeler says, "You are 25 probably aware that the most important data which has NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024696 41 1 led the Government agencies to permit the continued but 2 restricted use of polychlorinated biphenyls or the 3 extensive animal toxicity studies which we have 4 completed in the last two years. These included 5 two-year feeding studies in rats and dogs, a 6 three-generation rat reproduction study, possible 7 effects on poultry relating to egg production, 8 hatchability and egg shell thickness, territology and 9 mutagenic studies. Along with these feeding studies 10 have been tissue residue analysis and a major effort on 11 developing biodegradation data. 12 "As a matter of interest, the cost of these 13 studies to Monsanto has been something more than a half 14 million dollars." 15 Do you agree with that statement? 16 MR. CRAWFORD: Well -- 17 A You're talking about something I don't know 18 about. 19 MR. CRAWFORD: Don't -- well, don't 20 comment about something you don't know 21 anything about. 22 A I can't comment on that. 23 BY MR. LACEY: 24 Q I see. 25 A I really can't, David. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024697 42 1 Q I see. You don't know anything about any 2 studies undertaken by Monsanto to prove that it was safe 3 to use PCBs? 4 MR. CRAWFORD: At that time. 5 A Not -- no. No. 6 BY MR. LACEY: 7 Q Okay. 8 A I was not involved in that. 9 Q I see. And so you don't know whether 10 Mr. Wheeler is truthful in that or not? 11 A I cannot comment, David. 12 Q Okay. 13 A Ask the people in that area. You're asking the 14 wrong person. 15 Q I see. Okay. Well, I'll try to do that, then. 16 In the case of non-PCB dielectric fluids, is 17 contamination also an important matter? 18 A It's -- it depends on what you're talking 19 about. What contamination are you talking about? 20 What -- let's see. Let me hear your question again? 21 You said, "non-PCB"? 22 Q Yes. You -- you've told me that contaminants 23 in PCB -- 24 A Yes. 25 Q -- dielectric fluids can be animportant NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024698 43 1 factor, so much so that if I stick my finger in it -- 2 A Right. I -- I -- 3 Q -- I could adversely affect it. 4 A We got it right, David. Ionic, whether it's 5 your finger or my finger; yes. Moisture -- let's call 6 it H20, which is very conductive -- 7 Q Now -- 8 A -- yes. 9 Q -- is that same type of contamination a problem 10 with mineral oil, for example -- 11 A No -- 12 Q -- as in dielectric - 13 A -- no, David, not to the extent it is with 14 Askarel, because I think we went through the chemistry 15 on our last thing. We discussed among ourselves that 16 PCBs are indeed relatively polar -- I'm talking about 17 polychlorinated biphenyls -- whereas, a mineral oil, 18 David, is not. It's a strain -- a chain of carbon and 19 hydrogen. 20 Q So -- 21 A You're absolutely right. 22 Q So it can be more contaminated and still 23 function effectively? 24 A It can be morecontaminated without adverse 25 effect on the power factor and -- and these things. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024699 44 1 because the PCBs are more influenced by these infinite 2 trace contaminants, by -- we're taking here mineral - 3 this is just an example. 4 Yeah. You're right. The mineral oil, the 5 influence of those contaminants that we're talking about 6 is not nearly as pronounced. This is correct, David. 7 Q We talked about mineral oil being a -- a type 8 of petroleum refined product? Is that - 9 A That's -- 10 Q -- correct? 11 A This is what it is. 12 Q Is there any particular chemical composition 13 that goes along with mineral oil? We talked about 14 the -- the type of chemical structure for PCBs when we 15 started your deposition. Is there a chem- -- another 16 particular type of chemical structure that goes along 17 with mineral oil? 18 A Mineral oil is also a complex thing. You're 19 from the oil country. You know what petroleum oil -- 20 you know more about this than I do. I couldn't draw you 21 the -- the -- the formula. It consists of carbon and 22 hydrogen compounds. They are nonpolar compounds, in 23 simple terms. 24 Q I went to the store to get some mineral oil, 25 and this is what I found (indicating). NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024700 45 1 A I'll take it home with me. 2 Q Is that mineral oil? 3 A I assume it is. 4 Q It says here -- 5 A It's a petroleum product, isn't it? 6 Q It says here on the back -- and I'm going to 7 hand you what's been marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 8 No. 1 -- "Mineral oil and fragrance." Is -- is that - 9 is that what we're talking about, mineral oil? 10 A Well, I think this comes from -- it's 11 petroleum-derived somewhere from some petroleum; 12 probably from Houston, David. 13 Q I -- I don't know where it's -- where it's 14 packaged. 15 A May I have it -- 16 Q No. Actually, I'd prefer -- 17 A -- and take it home? 18 Q -- I'd prefer that we keep it. 19 A All right. So you call this mineral oil. 20 Q I mean, they -- that's whatyou're talking 21 about when you're talking about mineral oil? 22 A Essentially. 23 Q Okay. 24 A But it's a differentfraction, Iassure you. 25 You're not going to be -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024701 46 1 Q Is it thicker? 2 A Yes, it's thicker. 3 Q I see. 4 A I think so. Yeah, it's usually thicker, I 5 think. 6 MR. CRAWFORD: That's not what they 7 use in a transformer, is it? 8 THE WITNESS: No, that's not what's 9 used in a transformer. 10 BY MR. LACEY: 11 Q Could I -- could I add this mineral oil that's 12 in Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 1 to top up a transformer and 13 have it function correctly? 14 A I -- I -- I'm not -- I'm not a mineral oil 15 transformer man -- 16 Q You don't know? 17 A -- David. I don't want to be talking about 18 something I'm not -- 19 Q I see. 20 A -- expert on. 21 Q I see. 22 A You want to make a -- want me to give a rough 23 answer to you? 24 Q Sure, if you can do that. 25 A I don't think it would have anygreat adverse NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024702 47 1 effect on the mineral oil transformer, and I think 2 that's what you're -- 3 Q That's really what I'm trying to find out. 4 A Right. 5 Q And -- and so the -- the fragrances that are 6 added to this mineral oil, this baby oil -- 7 A That's for me. 8 Q -- probably would not adversely affect -- 9 A That -- that's for me. 10 Q No. This is mine. 11 A That's yours? 12 Q Yeah. 13 But you don't anticipate that the -- that the 14 additional chemicals that would be in baby oils, the 15 fragrance in addition to the mineral oil, would 16 adversely affect an electrical mineral oil transformer 17 if I poured this into it? 18 A Not a big mineral oil powertransformer. 19 Let me put it this way: That's not water, is 20 it? 21 Q This -- 22 A That's yours. You know what'sin there. 23 Q Well, I haven't opened this. It's got one of 24 those seals on it (indicating). 25 A Well, I know, but is it water? NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024703 48 1 Q Doesn't say it's -- 2 A It's not water, is it? 3 Q No, it's got mineral oil in it. 4 A It's a hydrocarbon, isn't it? 5 Q That's what it says on it, isn't it? 6 A I didn't read it. 7 Q Well, here. Look on there. 8 A I'll take your -- I'll take your word for it. 9 Q Well, can you read right here (indicating)? It 10 says, "Ingredients." 11 A I'll -- pardon? 12 Q Right in there, it says, "Ingredients: Mineral 13 oil, fragrance" -- 14 A "Mineral oil, fragrance." 15 Q That's it. 16 A It doesn't say it's a hydrocarbon, does it? 17 Q No, it just says "Mineral oil." And I guess 18 that's what I'm trying to figure out. Mineral oil, you 19 say, is a hydrocarbon. 20 A I -- that's what I assume it is, yeah. I would 21 assume so. 22 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, do you know 23 whether that could be used in a 24 transformer or not? 25 THE WITNESS: Well, you wouldn't use NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024704 49 1 it in a transformer. He's not asking this 2 question. 3 A Are you? 4 BY MR. LACEY: 5 Q It would be a little bit expensive to -- to 6 fill up my transformer with -- 7 A With that fragrance. 8 Q Yeah. 9 A Yeah. 10 Q I wouldn't needthat, would I? 11 A You wouldn't need that. 12 Q Okay. All I need is just the regular mineral 13 oil? 14 A That's right. 15 Q Okay. 16 A From Houston. 17 Q Okay. 18 You were responsible for, in a general way, 19 marketing of PCB dielectric fluids for a long period of 20 time, but not actually the salesmen in the field working 21 every day. Correct? 22 A This is correct. I was in that area. 23 Q You were in that area from -- I've forgotten. 24 Was it 1947 or so forward? 25 A No. You're talking about the -- the electrical NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024705 50 1 again, are you? Is this what you're talking -- 2 Q Electrical, yeah. 3 A Yeah. 4 No. It's more definitive to say from-- oh, I 5 guess something like 1952 -- 6 Q Okay. 7 A -- somewhere like that. 8 Q So 1952 through 197- -- 9 A -- -4. 10 Q --------4. 11 A Yeah. 12 Q During that period of time, did Monsanto have 13 any manuals of any sort that it provided to its salesmen 14 so they would know what to do in the field in answering 15 customers' questions? 16 A Well, we looked at those already, David, every 17 one of them. 18 Q Well, we looked at Technical Bulletins, didn't 19 we? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Now, I'm asking about whether they had anything 22 that was like a salesman''s manual. 23 A No. 24 Q Let me show you a document. Document 32424 25 through 32464, entitled "Monsanto Chemical Company NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024706 51 1 Salesmen's Manual, Aroclor" (tendering) Have you seen 2 that document before? 3 A (Reviews document.) 4 Well, this gives information about what the 5 different Aroclors are. That's what this does. 6 I've certainly seen -- I may have written this. 7 Q Well, this -- did you see the date that this 8 was written? It's right there on the front. 9 A 1944. 10 Q Did you write this? 11 A In 1944? 12 MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Lacey, I thought 13 we asked you during Dr. Kelly's deposition 14 whether this was in existence; and you 15 said you didn't know, and you didn't show 16 it. 17 MR. LACEY: I asked him about manuals 18 after he became the Medical Director, and 19 I've not been able to find a single 20 Salesmen's Manual that came into existence 21 after he became Medical Director. 22 MR. CRAWFORD: So this is not what 23 you're talking about. 24 MS. OLESEN: What is the date on 25 that? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024707 52 1 MR. LACEY: I'm trying to find - 2 October the 1st, 1944. 3 I think Dr. Kelly squelched these 4 types of documents and the information 5 contained in them, because they were 6 adverse to the sales -- 7 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, you -- -- 8 MR. LACEY: - - of PCBs. 9 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, you ref used to 10 show that to him. and you had it here all 11 the time when you -- when you were asking 12 him about it. 13 MR. LACEY: He was away at the War 14 during that time. 15 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, you just had it 16 and didn't show it to him. Is that it? 17 MR. LACEY: I sure didn't show it to 18 him. 19 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. 20 MR. LACEY: I sure didn't show it to 21 him. 22 MS. OLESEN Even though we requested 23 you to. 24 MR. LACEY: These documents are all 25 available to Monsanto. They are all in NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024708 53 1 . your hands. I got them from you. 2 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, you said you 3 weren't aware of one. 4 MR. LACEY: I'm not aware of a single 5 one after this one. They disappeared from 6 Monsanto for some reason -- 7 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, you had this 8 one. 9 MR. LACEY: -- Mr. Crawford, and I 10 think we'll let the Jury figure out about 11 why they went away and why this type of 12 information wasn't provided to customers 13 any more after Dr. Kelly became the 14 Medical Director of Monsanto. 15 MR. CRAWFORD: You didn't allow him 16 to look at it when you questioned him 17 about it, did you? 18 MR. LACEY: I sure didn't, because 19 I have some trouble with how truthful 20 Mr. Kelly is. 21 A Are you going to say that about me? 22 BY MR. LACEY: 23 Q NO. 24 A Well, I think you better not. 25 Q Okay. The worst -- the worst problem you and I NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024709 54 1 have got is you're long-winded. 2 A I don't think I'm as long-winded as you are, 3 David. 4 Q Well, oKay. Well, that makes us even. We're 5 both long-winded, then. 6 A We're both long-winded. 7 Q Now, my question to you about this Salesmen's 8 Manual is: Did you write it? 9 A No. And I'm confused with the date of 1944. 10 Q Well, there's no doubt about the fact that this 11 document was written in 1944. .Is there? 12 A Well, that's the date it's got on it. You see 13 it, and I see it. 14 Q I know. So somebody must have sat down and 15 wrote this thing in 1944. Correct? 16 A I have never seen this. 17 Q And you've never seen anything quite like it, 18 have you? 19 A What? 20 Q You've never seen anything quite like it at 21 Monsanto, either, have you? 22 A (Reviews document.) 23 Can I -- can I read this? 24 Q Sure. 25 A I don't want to be here all day. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024710 55 1 Q. Well, I tell you what -- 2 A Can I take it home? 3 Q Well, I tell you what: I bet if you'll ask 4 Mr. Beistline, he can get you a copy of this document 5 in no time at all; or Mr. Crawford can probably ask 6 Mr. Beistline for it. He should have one there in his 7 office. 8 MS. OLESEN: This one? 9 MR. LACEY: Uh-huh. 10 A (Reviews document.) 11 BY MR. LACEY: 12 Q Have you had a chance to generally look over 13 the document? 14 A Yeah. 15 Q Let me ask you to take a look, if you could, at 16 the page that's numbered down at the bottom 32428. 17 A 428? 18 Q Yes, 428. 19 A 428. Uh-huh. 20 Now, what do you want to know? 21 Q Now, that's where this section discussing 22 toxicity of these compounds starts, is it not? 23 A Yeah (reviews document.) 24 Q And it's talking specifically about the 25 toxicity of Aroclors. Correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024711 56 1 A I read it; right. 2 Q In addition to talking about the toxicity of 3 Aroclors, there's also a discussion -- this continues 4 for several pages, doesn't it, the discussion of 5 toxicity ? 6 A Well, I haven't gotten that far. 7 Q Oh, you haven't? 8 A I'm on No. 2. 9 Q Well, there's a lot -- well, there's several - 10 there's several pages of this discussion of toxicity and 11 safe handling, are there not? 12 A Well, I'm -- I'm -- I'm -- 13 Q Feel free to look at it. Take your time. 14 A (Reviews document.) 15 See, this was before my time. 16 Q I understand. You've not seen anything like 17 that for salesmen, have you? 18 A For salesmen? 19 Q Yes, to -- to -- or a manual for salesmen to 20 use in talking to their customers. You've not seen any 21 document like this from Monsanto before, have you? 22 A I haven't seen it, period. 23 Q Yeah; or anything like it? 24 A I don't know what you're talking about, for -- 25 for salesmen or for anybody else. I don't understand. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024712 57 1 I -- I wasn't connected with it. 2 Q Well, I understand. It -- it's very clear this 3 document was a document written for salesmen to use as a 4 reference - 5 A Who's saying this? 6 Q -- in talking to customers, isn't it? 7 A Who said this? 8 Q Well, let's stop and look. What is this? it 9 says right up at the top, doesn't it, "Salesmen's 10 Manual"? 11 A Yeah. 12 Q And it's very clear, if you look on the first 13 page there, in terms of what is provided to -- if you'll 14 let -- Mr. Crawford will let you have that back, right 15 down there after the listing of chemicals, that next 16 paragraph says, "Reference should be made to Technical 17 Bulletin P-115 for tables and graphs of physical 18 properties." 19 Do you remember that P-115? 20 A Yes. 21 Q That's the bulletin we looked at and tried hard 22 to figure out when it was around? 23 A Yeah. All right. 24 Q And we know it was around at least as early as 25 October of 1944 now, don't we? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024713 58 1 A Yes, it was. 2 Q Because it's referred to right here. 3 A Right. 4 Q And he goes on to say, "This -- 5 A Yeah, here it is. 6 Q -- "This manual" -- talking about this 7 Salesmen's Manual -- "contains only that information 8 which is not designed for general public distribution or 9 has been made more recently available than permitted 10 incorporation into the printed bulletin." 11 You see that information? 12 A Well, I read this sentence, yeah. 13 Q It's - 14 A "This manual contains" -- what are they talking 15 about? This or the P-115? 16 Q I think it's -- "this manual" is talking about 17 this one right here, isn't it? 18 A This one right here? 19 Q Yeah. Isn't that what it's talking about? 20 MS. OLESEN: If you're confused and 21 you can't tell him -- 22 A Well, how can this -- look. I -- I am not 23 qualified to discuss this. I'm not familiar with it. 24 BY MR. LACEY: 25 Q That's fine. Okay. Well, that's fine. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024714 59 1 Let me ask you to look at one thing in here. 2 Look at Page -- 3 A Excuse me just a minute. Let me -- 4 Q Well, sure. 5 A (Reviews document.) 6 Yeah. Okay. 7 Q Okay. Now, would you look at Page 32430? 8 A 430. Okay. 9 Q See about the middle of page where it starts a 10 section called "Recommendations for Industrial 11 Practice "? 12 A Right. 13 Q Here it lays out for the salesman in this 14 Salesmen's Manual what would be considered good practice 15 where Aroclors are being handled, doesn't it? 16 A Let me read it. 17 Q Surely. 18 A Where it says, "Unless there is a very good 19 reason for using the hot method"? 20 Q Yeah, and continuing right on all the way over 21 through the middle of the next page. 22 A (Reviewsdocument.) 23 "The cold or solvent method of impregnation 24 with chlorinated naphthalenes" -- well, we -- we didn't 25 make chlorinated naphthalenes. Monsanto didn't have NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024715 60 1 chlorinated naphthalenes. 2 Q That's not -- what's -- 3 A Why is it saying this? 4 Q What are the three words on top of that very - 5 the very top of that page? 6 A Up here (indicating)? 7 Q Yeah. 8 A It says, "Monsanto Chemical Company." 9 Q That's a Monsanto document, isn't it? 10 A Well, I'm telling you Monsanto didn't have 11 chlorinated naphthalenes. 12 Q Well, maybe they did back in 1944. 13 A No, they didn't, David. 14 Q I see. You know that. 15 A I -- I can guarantee it. 16 Q I see. Okay. 17 Well, why don't you go ahead and review that 18 entire section that talks about Recommendations for 19 Industrial Practice? 20 A Who wrote this? 21 Q Well, Mr. Benignus, I'd hoped that you could 22 tell me that. Somebody at Monsanto did, didn't they? 23 A I don't know. 24 (Reviews document.) 25 Yeah, I've read this page. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024716 61 1 Q Go ahead and keep on reading it. It goes on 2 over into the next page, doesn't it? 3 A (Reviews document.) 4 See, here's something that bothers me: "All 5 departments handling chlorinated synthetic waxes." 6 Q Uh-huh. Uh-huh. 7 A Would you -- would you interpret that to be 8 chlorinated naphthalenes? 9 Q Mr. Benignus, what I see in this document is it 10 talks about how to safely handle PCB products. And I 11 see here a listing of things that the salesmen were 12 supposed to recommend to the customers. That's what I 13 see. Isn't that what you see? 14 A Well, why -- no. I do and I don't. 15 Q I see. 16 A Mow, I'm supposed toanswer your questions, 17 and -- and we're getting into a discussion among 18 ourselves here now. 19 Q Well, is there -- let me ask you this: You 20 were -- you were over the sales area and the 21 communication-of-information area for a substantial 22 number of years at Monsanto. 23 A Not atthis period of time. 24 Q No; I understand. But for a substantial number 25 of years, you were over an area where you could supply NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024717 62 1 information to customers about PCBs. 2 A I was associated with this, yeah. 3 Q Yes. Now, here in this Salesmen's Manual that 4 Monsanto put out in 1944, they've got a section on 5 Recommendations for Industrial Practice. Correct? 6 A Yeah. I just read it. 7 Q Yeah. 8 A About in -- in -- talking about each fellow 9 should have two lockers, or something like this. 10 Q Yeah, and -- and let's just go over that. 11 What do they recommend? Two lockers for each 12 worker exposed to chlorinated waxes, one for working and 13 one for street clothes. Correct? 14 A Uh-huh. 15 Q "All work clothes above the underwear should be 16 provided and laundered at least twice a week by the 17 management." Correct? 18 A (Witness nods headup and down.) 19 Q You need to answer outloud. 20 A Yes. Yes, I see it. 21 Q "The workers should change to clean underwear 22 at the end of each shift before getting into street 23 clothes." Correct? 24 A Yes. It's in there. 25 Q "Supervised cleaning: At noon the workers NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024718 63 1 should remove outer cleaning and scrub hands and face 2 under supervision. 3 "At the end of the shift they should be 4 required to take a supervised shower before entering" -- 5 "before changing back into street clothes." Correct? 6 A That's what it says. You're reading it. 7 Q Next number: "Protective skin creams or 8 protective clothing should be provided by the management 9 at the discretion of the foreman, nurse, medical or 10 plant superintendent." Correct? 11 A Well, I read it. I wouldn't -- I wouldn't 12 agree with some of that. 13 Q I see. 14 A I agree that -- 15 Q You don't agree these steps are necessary as 16 precautions? 17 A No, I'm not saying that. 18 Q I see. 19 A I -- I don't like personally the -- the -- 20 using skin cream. 21 Q I see. Okay. But that's not the -- 22 A I -- I'm not trying to be confusing here. 23 Q Yeah. 24 A I read it with you, what it says. 25 Q "All departments handling chlorinated synthetic NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024719 64 1 waxes should be thoroughly cleaned according to a 2 prearranged schedule. This should include the removal 3 of all deposits, wax and carry-off from machines, floors 4 and surrounding objects. Workers doing the cleaning 5 should be provided with protective clothing and supplied 6 air or organic vapor masks where exhaust ventilation is 7 inadequate or impossible." Correct? 8 A That's what it says. 9 Q It goes on to say the the foreman of all 10 departments where this material is handled should be 11 apprised of the toxic nature of the material and 12 instructed in safe-handling procedures. Correct? 13 A That's what it says. 14 Q And it says these foremen should make it their 15 duty to check up on workers in their department and 16 instruct them in safe practice. Is that what it says? 17 A David, yeah, I've read it. I -- I can't change 18 what it -- 19 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, is this for 20 handling waxes, or what? What are -- what 21 are we talking about? 22 MS. OLESEN: You keep mentioning 23 waxes. 24 BY MR. LACEY: 25 Q Well, the document is a Monsanto document. And NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024720 65 1 go back to the front of the document. What does it talk 2 about ? 3 A David, I know -- 4 Q Aroclor, doesn't it? 5 A Yes. I read this. And -- and it does say 6 "Salesmen's Manual." But -- 7 Q And -- 8 A -- this is -- I wasn't there at this time. 9 Now, I read things here, David -- 10 Q I see. 11 A -- that tells me things. 12 Q Well, let's go -- let's just talk about what 13 the book goes through. 14 The first thing we have is general -- 15 A Oh, I'm not arguing one bit in what the book 16 goes through. 17 Q I see. 18 A I read it with you, David. 19 Q Yeah. 20 A I'm not arguing with what you're saying. 21 Q It talksabout --after the introductory first 22 page on description and properties, the next thing that 23 it talks about are the electrical properties of PCB 24 materials, aren't they? If you go to the second page, 25 that's the next -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024721 66 1 A Well -- 2 Q -- big heading, "Electrical Properties." 3 Correct? 4 A Well, here it says, "Electrical Properties," 5 yes. 6 Q And that discussion -- it has a -- a listing of 7 information about electrical properties, a listing of 8 information about solubility? 9 A Oh, yeah. 10 Q Informationabout stability? 11 A I know. I'veread it. I've -- 12 Q Corrosion? 13 A -- seen it, and I'm with you. I've seen all 14 thi s. 15 Q Toxicity? It just -- it has -- it has all 16 sorts of information about Monsanto's PCB products, 17 doesn't it? 18 A Yes, it does. 19 Q And what we've beenlooking atabout how it 20 should be handled is in -- is in the section discussing 21 toxicity, isn't it? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. And that's -- and it goeson to talk 24 about the use of Ac- -- Aroclors in adhesive? That's 25 what comes next after the Toxicity section. Page 32431. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024722 67 1 Correct? 2 A 4- -- 3 Q 431? 4 A 431? Well, I'm sure itis ifyou're saying so. 5 I'm not on that page. 6 Q Why don't you take look at it? 7 A 4- -- no, that's 432. 8 Q After toxicity, it talksaboutapplications of 9 Aroclors, doesn't it? Is that correct? 10 A Application of Aroclors, yes; adhesives. 11 Q It talks about how it can be used in adhesives 12 purposes? 13 A Yes. 14 Q How it can be used in electrical purposes as 15 dielectrics? Do you see that? 16 A Yeah. Here -- yeah. 17 Q It discusses Aroclors used as saturants? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Discusses different flameproofers and emulsion 20 formulas? Going over to Page 436, 32436, it talks about 21 emulsion formula, flameproofers? Correct? 22 A Right. 23 Q This -- this has a -- this has just a complete 24 discussion. 25 If you go on over to Page 32442 -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024723 68 1 A 42? Okay. 2 Q -- it talks about use as a heat transfer 3 medium? Correct? 4 A Let me look at this. 5 Q Surely. 6 A (Reviews document.) 7 Its use at Anniston. 8 Q As a heat transfer medium. Correct? 9 A Yeah. 10 Q It talks about its use as a hydraulic fluid? 11 Correct? 12 A Wait a minute. I'm not that far. I finds this 13 interesting. 14 (Reviews document.) 15 Q Does it talk about its use as a hydraulic 16 fluid? 17 A Yeah. 18 Q It talks about its use on the next page in - 19 in enamels and lacquers? 20 A Wait a minute. Yeah. 21 Q You get over to Page32450. It talks about 22 some specific specifications for certain Army products? 23 Correct? 24 A (Reviews document.) 25 Yeah. See, this '44would have been during the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024724 69 1 War 2 Q Right. Right. 3 A Yeah. 4 Q And you get over to Page 32454. It talks about 5 its use in lubricants? 6 A (Reviews document.) 7 Uh-huh. 8 Q Get over to Page 32456. It talks about its use 9 in plas tics? 10 A (Reviews document.) 11 Q Correct? 12 A Yes. Yes. 13 Q Get over to 32459. It talks about its use in 14 rubber ? 15 A (Reviews document.) 16 Q Correct? 17 A All of these are correct. 18 Q Yeah. I mean, it -- this -- 19 A I can't say it's not correct. We're reading 20 them. 21 Q This -- this Salesmen's Manual covers just 22 about everything you can ever think of about PCBs, 23 doesn't it? 24 A I think the title of that thing is a bit out of 25 gear NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024725 70 1 Q I see. 2 A- -- Salesmen's Manual. 3 Q I see. Well, it's just -- 4 A This tells -- 5 Q -- a good reference book. 6 A It -- it is. This -- this tells me some things 7 that I can put into order here going through -- I've 8 never seen this. 9 Q Yeah. But it -- it's -- 10 A It's not a book for the salesman. 11 Q It's not for the salesman? 12 A It says that, but -- 13 Q Somebody made a mistake? 14 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, don't speculate. 15 If you know -- 16 A Yeah. I don't want to -- I -- I didn't prepare 17 this. This is the first time I've seen it, David. 18 BY MR. LACEY: 19 Q Fine. Well, we know it -- 20 A I can see this. This is a very good, 21 comprehensive treatise of -- of the subject matter, as 22 you -- this is what you are saying. 23 Q And that -- yeah, that really is my question. 24 This is a very good,.comprehensive treatise on the 25 subject matter of PCBs, isn't it? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024726 71 1 A Yes. 2 Q The treatment here is considerably more 3 thorough than the treatment you find in those 4 application bulletins like P-115, isn't it? 5 A In -- in -- in many respects, it is, yes. 6 Q Including the respects about toxicity and safe 7 handling. Isn't that true? 8 A On that also, yes. 9 Q And you don't ever recall, from the time that 10 you were involved with sales matters on PCBs, seeing a 11 document like this that Monsanto put out any time after 12 1944, do you? 13 A I never saw this. 14 Is there a Coke around, or something to drink? 15 Q We can arrange for that. 16 MR. CRAWFORD: Do you want to take a 17 short break? 18 MR. LACEY: Yeah, we'll take a -- 19 THE WITNESS: Did I interrupt the -- 20 MR. LACEY: We'll take a real short 21 break, yeah. 22 23 (Recess) 24 25 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN: Okay. We've NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024727 72 1 been off the record for a short break. 2 We're now back on the record. The time is 3 2:05 p.m. 4 BY MR. LACEY: 5 Q Mr. Benignus, was the program for getting 6 information to customers on PCB products such that you 7 would anticipate that the salesmen who actually worked 8 in the field would get into every customer's hands the 9 documents that would give them information on what PCBs 10 were and how to handle them safely? 11 A Well, I can't say into every customer's hands, 12 no. 13 Q Well, would you expect that by 1972 people who 14 were managing the Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology 15 Departments for major companies would know what Aroclors 16 or PCBs were? 17 A By 1972? 18 Q Certainly. 19 A Oh, I'd have to say yes. The sales- -- would 20 the salesmen know? 21 Q No. I mean, would customers, people who were 22 in industrial hygiene and toxicology for customers of 23 Monsanto, know what Aroclors and PCBs were? 24 A Is your question, would people in industrial 25 hygiene at Monsanto? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024728 73 1 Q No. 2 A No? Would people in industrial hygiene and 3 toxicology at Monsanto's PCB customers -- 4 A Oh; oh. 5 Q -- know? 6 A I would think -- in 1972, I would think they -- 7 they would tend to -- in industrial hygiene, definitely. 8 I would have to say I would think that they would by 9 then -- 10 Q And -- 11 A -- because you're -- yeah. 12 Q The source of the -- one source of the 13 information they should have available to them would be 14 the Technical Bulletins that Monsanto put out. Correct? 15 A You're talking about 1972? 16 Q In 1972. 17 A Yes, plus a lot of other information by 1972; 18 yes. You're talking about industrial hygiene people? 19 Q Yes. 20 A Oh, of course. Yes. 21 Q And if they didn't have the information in 22 their hands by 1972 to know that Aroclors contained 23 PCB s, somehow something had gone wrong with the system 24 of ge tting the information out. Wouldn't you agree? 25 A I don't know how to answ er that question. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024729 74 1 Q Well -- 2 A Specifically, what -- what -- 3 Q Well, let me be very specific. 4 It was the job of Monsanto salesmen to get to 5 customers the Technical Bulletins about Monsanto's 6 Aroclor products, was it not? 7 A That was -- yes, that was part of their 8 function. 9 Q And, certainly, those were supposed to be -- 10 A But wait a minute. They also -- this 11 literature was available through the mails and so forth. 12 Q Okay. So it could get there on a mailing list, 13 as well as -- 14 A Yes. 15 Q -- directly by salesmen? 16 A Yes. It could -- sure. 17 Q And in either event, the literature, if it got 18 there, should be such that a person who got it would be 19 able to figure out that the word "Aroclor" means PCB, 20 shouldn't he? 21 A By 1972, yes. 22 Q Okay. 23 A This was a new-coined word, "PCB," and that was 24 in vogue because of the environmental thing. People 25 didn't call it "Aroclor"; they called it "PCB." NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024730 75 1 I believe that's your question, really, isn't 2 it? 3 Q Well,no. I -- my question is -- 4 A No? 5 Q -- whether from Monsanto's literature one 6 should be able to ascertain that Aroclor was the name 7 for polychlorinated biphenyl, or PCB. 8 A Well, I'm sure the literature no doubt did say 9 that Aroclor is polychlorinated biphenyl. 10 Q Okay. 11 A But I don't know that the word "PCB" was in -- 12 in vogue. That -- that's -- was something that was 13 coined. 14 Q Let me show you a -- an exhibit, a three-page 15 exhibit that was marked as Deposition Exhibit No. 6 in 16 Mr. Papageorge's deposition. I want to direct your 17 attention to the third page of that, which was marked as 18 Exhibit 6-A in his deposition, which is a letter dated 19 February 2nd, 1972, from a Mr. R. T. Richards. 20 A Yeah. 21 Q The man- -- do you know Mr. Richards? 22 A Dr.Richards. Isn't that Dr. Richards in 23 Research? 24 Q No. This is -- 25 A Oh. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024731 76 1 Q No. This is a different Mr. Richards -- 2 A Oh. I don't know him. 3 Q -- R. T. Richards,the Manager of Industrial 4 Hygiene and Toxicology for Texaco -- 5 A Oh, yeah. 6 Q -- to Mr. Papageorge. 7 A Okay. 8 Q And in this letter he indicates that they're 9 looking into -- Texaco is looking into their practice 10 with regard to chemicals they buy and whether they may 11 contain polychlorinated biphenyls. And he says in 12 parentheses there "(PCB)," so that he knew that 13 polychlorinated biphenyls were PCBs. 14 A Yes. Whoever wrote this would. 15 Q And that's Mr. Richards. 16 A Yes. 17 Q Now -- 18 A In 1972, I would think he might have known 19 that; yes. 20 Q Now, look at this last sentence in this 21 paragraph. 22 A This one (indicating)? 23 Q Yes. 24 A All right. "Texaco has used Monsanto for some 25 time, and your confirmation that no PCBs are present in NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024732 77 1 this series is specifically requested." 2 Q That doesn't make much sense, does it? 3 A No. The man Richards doesn't understand it, 4 does he? 5 Q No. He did not realize when he wrote that 6 letter in 1972 that Aroclors contained PCBs. 7 A Well -- 8 MR. CRAWFORD: Now, don't speculate 9 about something that you don't know 10 anything about. 11 BY MR. LACEY: 12 Q Well, it's obvious, isn't it, from the letter? 13 A It's obvious. 14 Q Okay. 15 A There's no speculation. David, this -- at that 16 point in time, "PCB," as you know, was a newly-coined 17 word. 18 Q I see. 19 A Well -- 20 Q He should certainly haveknown that Aroclors 21 contained polychlorinated byphenyls, shouldn't he? 22 That's not -- 23 A Depending on what he did. Maybe he was the 24 accountant or something. I don't know, David. 25 Q Why don't you look over -- right over there NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024733 78 1 it's got his title up there. What's it say? 2 A "Public Relations and Personnel, Health 3 Division." I would have to -- 4 Q Well, what's his specific title? Manager -- 5 A Dr. Richard, Manager, Industrial Hygiene and 6 Toxicity. 7 MR. CRAWFORD: Don't speculate about 8 something somebody else -- 9 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't think 10 that's speculation. 11 BY MR. LACEY: 12 Q It's not speculation, is it? It doesn't 13 require -- 14 A I'm reading what his title is. 15 Q Yeah. Somewhere, somehow, Monsanto's system to 16 get information out to its customers about Aroclors 17 bro ke down, didn't it? 18 MR. CRAWFORD: I would object to that 19 question. 20 A No, I wouldn't say that. No, no, David. No, 21 no, I -- I can't accept that. 22 BY MR. LACEY: 23 Q All right. 24 A I -- I'll turn that one around; and I mean it, 25 David. Monsanto did all they could to disseminate NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024734 79 1 information, believe me. 2 Q So it's all just Texaco's fault or 3 Mr. Richards' fault he doesn't know Aroclors are -- are 4 PCBs? 5 A My God, yes, David. You better believe it. 6 Q Okay. No possibility -- no possibility it 7 could be a Monsanto mistake; it must be a Texaco 8 mistake? 9 A No. I'm saying that if I were the industrial 10 hygiene man at Texaco or anywhere else at this point in 11 time in 1972, I should know this much; and you would say 12 you should know this much. 13 Q You would know -14 A This is -- 15 Q You would know -- 16 A -- 1972. 17 Q You would know that Aroclor was PCB in 1972? 18 A I would. I did. 19 Q Okay. And -- and Mr. -- and Mr. Richards 20 should have, too. 21 A He did. It says he did. 22 Q I know. But you're saying he should have 23 known? 24 A I would think so. 25 Q Okay. And you don't think the reason he didn't NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024735 80 1 know could possibly be that Monsanto failed to get the 2 appropriate information to him? 3 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, don't speculate. 4 Just -5 A No, I'm not going to pursue this and -- and -- 6 and -- 7 BY MR. LACEY: 8 Q I see. 9 A -- comment on this. The literature was full 10 of -- of PCB stuff. We're talking about 1972, David. 11 Q I see. I see. 12 Mr. Benignus, we talked in your deposition 13 earlier about plants that you visited, did we not? 14 A Yeah. 15 Q And what did youtell me aboutvisiting the 16 Westinghouse capacitor plant in Bloomington, Indiana? 17 A I told you I was at that plant when it was 18 newly built. I knew Ralph Marberry, who had designed 19 it; that he had put in a new design, a manifold 20 impregnation versus a batch impregnation that they had 21 used prior. 22 And he invited me to -- it -- it wasn't a 23 formal invitation. It was when I would be in the area, 24 to drop by and see him. He was a friend. I knew Ralph 25 quite well. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024736 81 1 So I was there, and it wasn't running; but he 2 had built this thing as a manifold-impregnation thing, 3 yeah. 4 Q You told me you had never seen the plant in 5 operation. Correct? 6 A I have never seen that plant in operation. 7 This is correct. 8 Q Now, you learned after the plant went into 9 operation, did you not, that they were handling PCBs in 10 a sloppy fashion, didn't you? 11 A That plant went into operation -- I'm -- Im 12 trying to think when that was. But that was many, many 13 years later. 14 Q What was? 15 A That you're -- that -- that I knew -- I heard 16 what you're talking about, about this sloppy thing. 17 This sloppy thing was at -- well, when was it? I would 18 agree with it or -- yes, I -- 19 MR. CRAWFORD: Show him the document. 20 BY MR. LACEY: 21 Q Let me show you -- let me show you a memo you 22 wrote -- 23 A Yeah, that's -- 24 Q -- September 21st, 1967 -- 25 A All right. Yougot it. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024737 82 1 MR. CRAWFORD: Look --look at the 2 document. 3 A Agreed. 4 BY MR. LACEY: 5 Q -- Document No. 25281. 6 A I wrote it. Of course, Iwrote it. 7 Q Is that a memo you wrote? 8 A Yeah, so we're on the date that I'm looking 9 for, 1967. I had run into this -- 10 Q Yeah. Let -- 11 A -- in a salesman's report. 12 Q Okay. Let me just stop and ask you 13 questions -- 14 A Okay. 15 Q -- so we'll get some clearquestions and 16 answer s. 17 How did you learn that Westinghouse was not 18 handling PCBs properly? 19 A I learned that by reading a salesman's report. 20 The salesman had called there, and he had spoken to a 21 man at Westinghouse who told him this. 22 Q Now -- 23 A And I saw itin thatsales report. 24 Q Whose --whose report was that? 25 A I think it was Randy Graham. It may have been NELL MC LALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024738 83 1 Jim Bryant. 2 Q Was that a written report that you received? 3 A Oh, yes. Yes. So I'm passing along this 4 information. 5 Q Now, in response to the fact that they were not 6 handling the product well, what did you do? 7 A I passed this down to Anniston. And this is in 8 connection, I would say, with arranging a visit for 9 Westinghouse. The fac- -- purpose of the Westinghouse 10 visit is to discuss our fac- -- with our factory people 11 the measures for handling 1242 to avoid problems with 12 dermatitis and toxic -- that's purpose of it. 13 Q Were you present at that meeting -- 14 A No, I -- 15 Q -- that took place? 16 A -- was not. I was not. 17 Q Now, you in your memo suggested that some other 18 topics could also be covered at the same time, didn't 19 you? 20 A I don't know. I could have. 21 Q Well, take a look and see if you didn't suggest 22 that. 23 A Well, what are -- where are you -- 24 Q Well -- 25 A Just to make it a fast -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024739 84 1 Q -- you say, "In addition to the above, this 2 would be a good time for Jim Bryant to tell Westinghouse 3 about certain aspects of" -- 4 A Oh, yes. Yes. Sure. 5 Q You thought you would get some additional good 6 out of that meeting besides just talking about safe 7 handling. Correct? 8 A Not we; that day might. 9 Q I see. 10 A I don't know if you want to explore this or 11 not. I -- I can tell you what it is. 12 Q Well, now -- 13 A Yes. It was suggested that they be shown the 14 process that Bryant had recently developed for refining 15 PCB, which was a column versus a batch type. 16 Q In fact, that process that you'd developed for 17 improving electrical product was developed in 1967, was 18 it not? 19 A I would say at that -- about that point in 20 time, yes. 21 Q That was about the same time of the memo that 22 you wrote about the problems (tendering) with how the 23 qualities of Monsanto's PCBs stacked up against the 24 foreign competition, wasn't it? 25 A Well, it's purely incidental and happenstance. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024740 85 1 Yes, the dates are the same, but -2 Q And it's about -- 3 A There is no -- there is no formal relationship 4 between the two. 5 Q It's the same -- it's about the same time 6 Mr. Miller wrote his report about the superior 7 properties ot the German and Japanese PCB, isn't it? 8 A Yes, it is. Yeah. 9 Q In tact, didn't Monsanto undertake, after they 10 found out their PCBs weren't as good as the Japanese and 11 the German, to improve their process to get a 12 better-quality product? 13 MR. CRAWFORD: I object to the form 14 of the question. 15 A I -- 16 MR. CRAWFORD: You used the word 17 "good." 18 A I object to the question, but -- 19 BY MR. LACEY: 20 Q Can youanswer the question? 21 A Pardon? What is it? 22 Q Isn't it true that after Monsanto discovered 23 the Japanese and the German were putting out a 24 better-quality PCB product, that Monsanto undertook to 25 introduce extra distillation capability to try to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024741 86 1 improve the quality of its PCBs? 2 MR. CRAWFORD: Or res- -- res- -- 3 resist ivity? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, resistivity. 5 A This is not the reason that they developed this 6 column, David. It is not the reason. 7 It is -- at this point in time, you must -- 8 they're all dated. I agree to that. Of course, I do. 9 But this is not the reason Bryant set out, 10 specifically because there was any concern about the 11 quality of -- of our material. His column was a more 12 convenient and, he thought, a more efficient way of 13 handling this in batch filtering. 14 BY MR. LACEY: 15 Q Doesn't your memo say, "In addition to the 16 above, this would also be a good time for Jim Bryant to 17 tell Westinghouse of our experiences with upgrading 18 Aroclor 1242 through the use of Porocel. The efforts we 19 are making to arrive at higher electrical properties 20 should be related to Westinghouse so they will 21 understand the efforts we are making to provide 22 Westinghouse with the best possible quality"? Isn't 23 that what you said? 24 A Yes, this -- this is what I said, David. 25 Q And isn't it true that what Monsanto was doing NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024742 87 1 was trying to improve the quality of their product? 2 A We were always trying, David, to have the very 3 best quality. Now, I don't want this thing to go on 4 with any misconception. Our quality was very good. i 5 agree, David, we were always trying to improve this 6 quality. 7 Q Did you provide anybody in Monsanto's Medical 8 Department with the information about the bad handling 9 practices at Westinghouse? 10 A No. These are not medical people on here. 11 Q To your knowledge, did you ever tell anybody in 12 the Medical Department -- either Dr. Kelly, Mr. wheeler, 13 Mr. Garrett, or anyone else -- about the types of 14 problems you knew existed at Westinghouse? 15 A Well, specifically, I do not recall; neither 16 was I the Product Manager. I was trying to arrange a 17 visit with Westinghouse. I was not in the Sales 18 Department organization. I was accommodating the 19 marketing salespeople with arranging to have the 20 customer come to Anniston. That was my role -- 21 Q I see. 22 A -- in this. 23 Q And you don't know how -- 24 A But I didn't -- I -- obviously, that didn't go 25 up to the Medical Department. NELL MC C. .LLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024743 88 1 Q And you don't know how much time or effort was 2 devoted by the people at Anniston to telling 3 Westinghouse they needed to do better,.do you? 4 A No. I was not there. 5 Q You had no idea whether they provided them with 6 any information above and beyond what was in the 7 Technical Bulletins do you? 8 A I wasn't there, David. I don't know. 9 Q The types of problems that you knew existed at 10 Westinghouse in 1967 included allowing PCB dielectric 11 materials to spill and soak into workmen's shoes and 12 clothing,.without them changing the shoes and clothing. 13 Isn't that correct? 14 A That's what it says, yes. 15 Q That type of practice is bad practice, isn't 16 it? 17 A I -- to me, it sure is. 18 Q That's the type of thing that -- 19 A And that needs to be looked at, and this is 20 what I was helping put under way -- 21 Q I see. 22 A -- by arranging the meeting. 23 Q I see. Do you know if the problem was solved? 24 A If it hasn't, it sure should have been. 25 Q Did you ever check up on it to see if it got NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024744 89 1 fixed? 2 A I wasn't calling on Westinghouse. I think this 3 should be addressed to the marketing -- the product 4 group. 5 Q You just left it for somebody else to take care 6 of? 7 A This is addressed -- this is addressed to the 8 plant and the market people. 9 Q You -- you didn't ever see fit to follow up on 10 it? 11 A I never called McClain and said, "Well, now, 12 what did you do, or what came" -- I assume it was 13 corrected. 14 Q But you never checked -- 15 A That was the -- 16 Q -- to find out? 17 A -- purpose of the whole thing, wasn't it? 18 Q You never checked to find out? 19 A That wasn't my business, David. 20 Q You didn't even check to find out if the 21 meeting took place, did you? 22 A Do what? 23 Q You didn't even check tofind out if -- 24 A I may have been out of thecountry by the time 25 the meeting took place. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024745 90 1 Q I see. 2 You were involved, were you not , in Monsanto's 3 policy to defend Aroclor? 4 A What? 5 Q You were involved, were you not , in Monsanto's 6 eff orts and policies to defend Aroclor, were you not? 7 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, show him the 8 document. 9 A I don't understand. I -- 10 BY MR. LACEY: 11 Q Let me show you a document dated December 9th, 12 1968, written by Dr. Richard to Ralph Munch, you and 13 Mr. Bryant, Mr. Heber, Mr. Sullivan, Mr. Thompson, 14 Mr. Wiest; Document 39204-205 (tendering). 15 You received that document, did you not? 16 A Yes. I was on the list here. 17 Q And that document dealt with an effort by 18 Monsanto to defend Aroclor and try to keep it in use, 19 did it not? 20 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, let him read the 21 document. 22 A (Reviews document.) 23 Well, this is by Bill Richard, the Director 24 of - of Research, outlining a program. 25 NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024746 91 1 BY MR. LACEY: 2 Q What was your role in the program to defend 3 Aroclor ? 4 A I was on the sideline, David. 5 Q You didn't have anything really to do with it? 6 A I was not in line with any of this, no. 7 Q And did your efforts with the National 8 Electrical Manufacturers Association and the ANSI 9 group -- was that part of the program to defend Aroclor? 10 MR. CRAWFORD: I'm going to object to 11 the form of the question. You're assuming 12 there is such a program. He didn't know 13 anything about it. 14 BY MR. LACEY: 15 Q Now, we talked -- 16 MR. CRAWFORD: He didn't know about 17 it. 18 BY MR. LACEY: 19 Q We talked in your earlier deposition about your 20 service as chairman of the National -- 21 A No. You've got it wrong. 22 Q -- Manufacturers -- 23 A I was -- I was chairman of the Steering 24 Committee. 25 Q That's right. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024747 92 1 A I helped lay the egg, and I had nothing to do 2 with the workings of it. 3 Q You understand perfectly well -- 4 A Oh, I think you understand; all right? I was 5 chairman of the Steering Committee that helped put this 6 thing together. Just like at Anniston there; I helped 7 put the meeting together. But I was not active at 8 Anniston. I was not the active one. I did help 9 organize the thing, David -- 10 Q Right. 11 A -- yes. 12 Q And my question to you, and so we satisfy 13 Mr. Crawford's failure to recollect what you testified 14 to, you were -- 15 MR. CRAWFORD: Object to that. 16 MR. LACEY: Well, it's true, Walter. 17 He testified to all that stuff in his 18 deposition. We're doing the continuation. 19 And my question to him is whether or 20 not his service with the National 21 Electrical Manufacturers Association group 22 and with the ANSI group was part of the 23 program to defend Aroclors. 24 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, you haven't 25 established with him -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024748 93 1 MR. LACEY: Well - 2 MR. CRAWFORD: -- that he knows 3 anything about the program to defend 4 Aroclors, whatever that is. He was on 5 ANSI. 6 MR. LACEY: I'm trying to find out 7 if -- if his service was -- 8 A Well, I was not active on this. 9 BY MR. LACEY: 10 Q I see. You didn't have anything to do with -- 11 A We've already discussed I was sort of as a 12 satellite -- 13 Q I see. 14 A -- satellite out here. I was aware of this, 15 yes; but I was not actively engaged. 16 1968. If you asked me where I was, it could be 17 some foreign land. 18 Q I see. 19 A But the -- the copy did come to mydesk. 20 Q But -- 21 A I didn't formulate the program. I did not do 22 any active work on the program. 23 Q Well, let me show you here a document dated 24 September 9th, 1969, Document 30840 through 30487 (sic), 25 also written by Mr. Richard to Mr. Wheeler, with copies NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024749 94 1 to various people. And I want to direct your attention 2 in particular to the fifth page of this document, 30844, 3 and to the sixth page of the document, 30845, where it 4 lists certain portions of the plan to defend Aroclors 5 and gives the name of the people responsible for it out 6 at the side (tendering). Do you see that? 7 A Yeah. 8 Q Your name shows up out there -- 9 A Yeah. 10 Q -- as responsible for the actions. 11 A My name and Bryant. Bryant was in my area. He 12 was associated with me. 13 This is 1969. I may have been in Australia, 14 for all I know. But it came to Benignus/Bryant. Now, 15 what is it that -- oh, capacitor fluids. 16 Q And if you go to the next page -- 17 A Yes, this would have been Benignus/Bryant, 18 addressed really to Bryant. 19 Q 1 see. 20 A I mean, David, at this time we were talking 21 about that thing in Australia. What date was -- 22 Q Australia was 1967. 23 A '67. Well, this is what? 24 Q '69. 25 A '69. Well, I was active overseas. I'm merely NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024750 95 1 pointing that out. 2 Q Yeah. 3 A I may or may not have been there. 4 But on capacitors, it would have come to 5 this -- to the attention -- it wouldn't have come to 6 Kountz and Hodges, not the capacitors. 7 Q No. And you go to the next page. It talks 8 about transformers, and again -- 9 A Yeah. I would say -- 10 Q -- you and Mr. Bryant were responsible -- 11 A Yes. 12 Q -- for that, were you not? 13 A Yes. It could have left my name out, but -- 14 all right. I understand. It's Benignus/Bryant. We 15 were associated. 16 Q You all had a role to play in this program to 17 defend Aroclors, didn't you? 18 A Well, we were named here, yes, under this 19 section. I don't know what it says we were supposed to 20 do. 21 Q Well, it's listed right -- Dr. Richard -- 22 A Well, I -- 23 Q -- had this all lied out -- laid out -- 24 A He did, yes. 25 Q And he had the -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024751 96 1 A I didn't help him lay it out. 2 Q He just made the -- 3 A Oh. 4 Q We're both talking at the same time, and that's 5 a no-no. 6 A All right. 7 Q Dr. Richard had this all laid out withwho was 8 supposed to do what, and made specific assignments of 9 each job, didn't he? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And -- 12 A That's what it is. 13 Q And you were on the list of people who were 14 asigned jobs to do? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. 17 A Okay. 18 Yeah. 19 Q Let me -- that's really all the questions I've 20 got. You don't recall the details of your involvement 21 in this program, though? 22 A No. 23 Q I see. 24 A In fact, I was really not actively involved, 25 no. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024752 97 1 Q Let me show you a document that was marked as 2 Deposition Exhibit No. 10 in the deposition of 3 Mr. Papageorge (tendering) , and I want to direct your 4 attention specifically to the second and third pages of 5 that document and ask if those are the types of price 6 lists that Monsanto had for its various products. 7 MR. CRAWFORD: You better look at all 8 of it. 9 THE WITNESS: 1970 . 10 MR. CRAWFORD: The first page, too. 11 THE WITNESS: Huh? 12 MR. CRAWFORD: Go on and look at the 13 whole thing, just so you can get oriented 14 here (indicating). 15 THE WITNESS: Aroclor plasticizers. 16 MR. CRAWFORD: You may not know it 17 I don't know if you know anything about 18 that. 19 A That's not in my area, David. 20 BY MR. LACEY: 21 Q Well, my question has to do with whether the 22 price -- price list attached is the type of price list 23 that Monsanto used to put out on its various products. 24 A Well, up to the fourth decimal place? 25 Q They had price lists like that, didn't they, at NELL MC Cr-vLLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024753 98 1 Monsanto? 2 A I've never seen this before. 3 Q I see. You've never seen that type of price 4 list? 5 A No, I wasn't in this area. 6 Q No, I'm not talking about that particular price 7 list. That one actually came out of the plasticizer 8 area -- 9 A Yeah. 10 Q -- didn't it? 11 A Yeah. 12 Q And I'm asking whether they had price lists 13 like that, Monsanto did, for its various products, 14 including the PCB products that were used as dielectric 15 fluids. 16 A Oh, of course they hadprice lists. 17 Q Okay. 18 A Not -- not like this. 19 Q Well, what were the price lists like that were 20 used in the dielectric area? 21 A The salesmen had a -- what they called a price 22 book. 23 Q I see. 24 A It was alooseleaf thing about that like 25 (indicating) . NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024754 99 1 Q Did it have printed sheets in it like that that 2 gave the -- 3 A No, it wasn't in this form. 4 Q I see. 5 A And -- these operations are out to the fourth 6 decimal place. 7 Q Very accurate, aren't they? 8 A My gracious. Mils. 9 MR. CRAWFORD; Okay. 10 A Tenths of a mil. I -- I don't know. I -- I -- 11 I just don't know. "Price and shipping information." I 12 don't know that this is the kind of thing that -- 13 "Aroclor, a new" -- "Dear Customer." 14 Boy, they sure gave themselves out to the -- 15 MR. CRAWFORD; Well, don't -- 16 A See, these things were very -- I don't know. I 17 wasn't in the area. 18 BY MR. LACEY; 19 Q I see. 20 A I can read it. 21 MR. LACEY; Would you mark this as 22 the next exhibit, or I guess the first 23 exhibit. I'm not sure what exhibit number 24 it is. I don't remember if we marked 25 anything in the earlier part of the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024755 100 1 deposition or not. 2 3 (Deposition Exhibit Benignus 1 marked 4 for identification, and discussion off the 5 recor d) 6 7 BY MR. LACEYs 8 Q Mr. Benignus, let me show you what's been 9 marked as Deposition Exhibit Benignus 1, and it's dated 10 today as the continuation date (tendering). 11 A Uh-huh. 12 Q That's aprice list for electrically-applied 13 PCB products, is it not? 14 A Yes. Yes, it is. 15 Q It shows the prices that the various products 16 were sold at, when they started being sold, and when 17 they were discontinued in the 1970's, does it not? 18 A Well, it starts '71. 19 Q I'm sorry; '71. 20 A And it runs down to '76. Yes, it has that 21 numbers on there. 22 Q Is that price list accurate with regard to when 23 Aroclor 1016 started into commercial sale; that it 24 wasn't on commercial sale on January 1, 1971? 25 A Well, that's what it says, and I think that was NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024756 101 1 right. I think we more or less hit that number in there 2 earlier. 3 Q All right. I just -- well, I just -- we didn't 4 have this document to look at, and I just -- 5 A No, we didn't. 6 Q -- wanted to make sure. 7 A But it says, "Not marketed on January." it 8 wasn't marketed then. April, it had a price. 9 Q Okay. 10 A I -- yes. 11 Q Now, that price list, if you can look at it 12 there -- 13 A Yeah. 14 Q -- shows that Aroclor 1016 came on the market 15 by April 1st, 1972. 16 A Right. 17 Q Right? 18 A Right. 19 Q It also shows that Aroclor 1242 -- 20 A Was discontinued. 21 Q -- was discontinued. And that, of course, was 22 the -- you didn't sell Aroclor 1242 after you started 23 selling 1016. Is that -- 24 A I would say so. And this brings to mind, I 25 think in our previous -- you were asking the same NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024757 102 1 question, and I think you got me a little bit confused. 2 Q I see. 3 A The 1016 came on the mar ket. We 4 discontinued -- you worded your q uestion in a way 5 that -- that sort of got me to gi ve you an answer that 6 wasn't exactly right. I think I told you that -- 7 MR. CRAWFORD: He's good at that. 8 THE WITNESS : It was what? 9 MR. LACEY: Yo u know, I just asked 10 him, Walter. 11 A He only asks them, but. boy, you can confuse. 12 Let me say this, David: This is correct 13 (indicating). 14 BY MR. LACEY: 15 Q Okay. This document -- 16 A This was that 1242 was discontinued. 17 Q Okay. 18 A I think I told you -- you said if somebody 19 insisted and wanted 1242, would we supply 12- -- and 20 I -- I may have said "yes," David. 21 Q And is the answer now that you would not have? 22 A That's right. 23 Q I see. 24 A Let us correct it. We would not want to have a 25 lame, limp product that we had to have separate storage NELL MC C..LLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024758 103 1 and separate this -- it -- it's uneconomical. 2 Q So -- 3 A Yes, let's go over this. 4 Q Okay.So when you switched over from 1242 to 5 6- -- 1016, either people made the switch or they did 6 without. Correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Okay. Now -- 9 MR. CRAWFORD: Before we leave this, 10 are you sure that that's the correct date 11 on the 1016? I mean -- 12 A Well, that -- this is what it says. You know. 13 I didn't formulate this. 14 15 (At this point in the deposition, 16 Mr. Jones and Mr. Garrett entered the 17 deposition room and there was a 18 discussion off the record, following which 19 discussion Ms. Olesen, Mr. Jones and 20 Mr. Garrett left the deposition room) 21 22 BY MR. LACEY: 23 Q Now, this -- 24 MR. CRAWFORD: This isn't a Monsanto 25 document, is it? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024759 104 1 MR. LACEY: Well, actually, I think 2 it is a Monsanto document; not one 3 supplied to me, however. 4 BY MR. LACEY: 5 Q Now, this shows that there were different 6 prices, depending on whether people bought it by -- 7 A Right. Sure. 8 Q T -- what is T/ -- 9 A Tank car. 10 Q T/C. And what it is T/T? 11 A Tank truck. 12 Q Okay. So if people bought it by a tank car or 13 a tank -- 14 A Bulk. 15 Q -- truck -- 16 A Bulk. 17 Q Bulk. -- they got a lower price than if they 18 bought it in smaller quantities? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And so this chart shows, then,depending on how 21 much you bought -- 22 A Yes. 23 Q -- you paid less, thelarger you bought? 24 A You paid more -- yeah, the less amount you 25 bought; yeah. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024760 105 1 Q And that was typical. If you bought -- bought 2 a real small container, you paid the highest price; if 3 you bought it in a tank car, you paid the lowest price? 4 A Correct. 5 Q And it was sold in -- it looks like tank cars 6 or tank trucks. 7 A Yes. 8 Q What is T/L drums? 9 A Truckload drums. 10 Q Okay. So if you bought a -- if you bought a 11 whole truck full of drums, you got that price? 12 A No. LTL is what? Less truckload. 13 Q Less than a truckload of drums? 14 A Yeah. Right. And then this is -- 15 Q Five gallons -- 16 A -- five gallons. 17 Q -- is a pail? 18 A Yeah. 19 Q So the way I could get PCB, I could get it in a 20 five-gallon pail. Correct? 21 A Every one of them. 22 Q And I could get it in a drum. And a drum what; 23 was a 55-gallon drum? 24 A Yes. It was a 55-gallon drum. 25 Q And if I bought one of them, I paid one price; NELL NIC CAILUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024761 106 1 but if I bought a truckload of them, I paid a lower 2 price. Correct? 3 A Uh-huh. 4 Q And then if I bought it in a tanker truck, just 5 the whole truck full -- 6 A Right. 7 Q -- or a railroad car, the whole car full, I got 8 a lower price? 9 A Yes. Right. 10 Q Now, this chart also shows that the price went 11 up through the years. is -- is that -- 12 A Yeah. 13 Q -- the way things happened? 14 A And the business went to hell. 15 Q Okay. What do you mean by that? 16 A Huh? We -- yo u're talking about 197- -- what 17 it? -1? 18 Q '71. 19 A At this point. haven't -- hasn't this been 20 discussed? 21 Monsanto had been out of the nonelectrical -- 22 they lost all of that, and they were spending a lot of 23 money with the environmental situation, and it wasn't 24 the same business. 25 Q And was the first -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024762 107 1 A And their costs went way up. 2 Q Was -- was the price going up in part to cover 3 the environmental problems and the like? 4 A They had -- somewhere we -- we read in 5 something I just looked at that the costs of the 6 business went skyrocketing. It had been a very 7 hardnosed economic thing through the years, very 8 orderly; and all of a sudden, the bottom fell out. And 9 this accounts for this -- this level of fluctuation. 10 Q And is that why the price increased, as shown 11 on Benignus Exhibit No. 1; because the -- the business 12 went badly? 13 A Very, very much so; yes. Now, I wasn't running 14 out the economics and so on and so forth. I know the 15 business. We lost over half of the business. And that 16 makes a big economic difference. 17 Q Do you -- 18 A There was no longer the business I was 19 accustomed to, David. 20 Q You didn't have anything to do with setting the 21 prices? 22 A Not at this time. 23 Q Did people just provide you with a price sheet 24 like this and say, "These are the prices"? 25 A Yeah, but I wasn't really in -- in the NELL NIC CAELUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024763 108 1 marketing -- I wasn't in the sales end of it, really. 2 But that's what it would have been, that "These are the 3 prices." And I had nothing to do with it at this time. 4 Q Okay. 5 A I did through the years when GE set the prices. 6 Q GE used to set the prices? 7 A You better believe it. 8 Q Okay. 9 Let me show you a document, 35420 through 10 35488, that comes out of the Development Department and 11 is titled "Liquid Dielectrics and Aroclor, a Market 12 Survey," by John S. Harris in August of 1956 13 (tendering). Do you know Mr. Harris? 14 A Yeah, I knew Mr. Harris. 15 Q Did he work with -- 16 A No. He worked with me years before this. 17 Q Was he familiarwith the PCB dielectric market? 18 A In a general way, he would have been familiar; 19 yes. 20 Q Did you see -- 21 A He wasn't active in this; but in a general way, 22 yes. 23 Q Did you see that report back when Mr. Harris 24 wrote it in 1956? 25 A I think I probably saw it. I don't know if - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024764 109 1 yeah, it came to me. 2 Q Did you contribute to it? 3 A I may h ave furnished him with some background 4 things. I don't remember. Ac- -- I did not work 5 actively on this . He did this independent of me. 6 But tha t doesn't mean I didn't contribute 7 somethin g. I wo uld have probably contributed this 8 (indicating) to help him out, this -- this composition 9 and things like that. I don't mean to say I didn't 10 contribute anyth ing, but he did this quite much on his 11 own. 12 Q Okay. 13 Let me show you another document. 14 Well, before I go away from that, is there any 15 reason that you would think that that isn't an accurate 16 document setting forth the situation in the market? 17 A I have no reason -- I haven't read it. I -- I ia just don't know. But I -- I know Harris. I know what 19 he was -- he was making a survey. And, offhand, he's a 20 good man. 21 Q You read it back at the time you got it, didn't 22 you? 23 A I think I would have read it. 24 Q Do you recall any problems with it that you saw 25 at that time? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024765 110 1 A None that I took active -- 2 Q Let me show you another document, and -- 3 A But I don't know what's in there, if there's 4 any -- 5 Q And we don't really have time to sit and read 6 all the pages of it right now, do we? 7 A No, we've done enough. 8 Q Let me show you another document titled "Review 9 of Transformer Askarel," dated July 1962, Document 42271 10 through 42272. And that doesn't have an author on that 11 document (tendering). Did you write that document? 12 The reason I -- 13 A 1962. 14 Q The reason I asked if you wrote it, it kind of 15 reads like your -- your writing style. 16 A Like I would say things, huh? 17 Q That's what it seems like to me. 18 A Yeah, I see -- okay, David. 19 Q Did you write it? 20 A I would think so. 21 Q Looks like your writing style to you, too. 22 doesn1t it? 23 A Yeah. 24 Q Okay. Is that document accurate, setting forth 25 the way things were back in 1962 and the history leading NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024766 111 1 up to then? 2 A (Reviews document.) 3 There are things in here that I'm pointing out 4 that would be in the vein or flavor, yes. 5 Q Okay. 6 Let me show you another document entitled 7 "Aroclor/Santotherm Sales Report in 1968," Document 8 29119 through 29122, and ask if in particular the 9 information in here regarding dielectric applications 10 would have come from you (tendering). 11 A Aroclor/Santotherm. 12 (Reviews document.) 13 Gosh, it's in Japanese, isn't it? Is that what 14 you're referring to? 15 Q No. I'm just wondering if the information in 16 there would have -- 17 A From me specifically? 18 Q Yes. -- come from you. 19 A No, it wouldn't have come from me 20 specifically -- 21 Q Okay. 22 A -- on this, no. 23 Q All right. 24 Let me show you another document written 25 November 6th, 1969, regarding "New Dielectric Fluids" NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024767 112 1 from Dr. Munch to Dr. Richard, with a copy to you 2 (tendering). Did you did you receive a copy of that 3 document? 4 A I'm on the list, so it would have come to me 5 through the mail. 6 Q Let me show you another document, also from 7 Dr. Munch to Dr. Richard, dated December 5th, 1969, 8 regarding "Future Posture-Dielectrics," with a copy 9 shown to you (tendering). Did you receive a copy of 10 that document? 11 A Yeah, it says I did. They copied me in on 12 everything. 13 Q You were still involved in that period of time 14 in the dielectric business, were you not? 15 A This is '69? Yes. 16 Q Yes. 17 A Yeah. 18 Q Let me show you another document dated February 19 2nd, 1970, called "The Transformer Askarel Fluid 20 Market," written by Donald R. Pogue, Document 27924 21 through 28017 (tendering). Did you see that document? 22 A I heardof this. 23 Q Who was Mr. Pogue? 24 A He was a man in -- what in the world was he? 25 What's the date on this thing? '70. He was -- I'm NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024768 113 1 trying to do my best here. 2 I know -- I know Don Pogue. He was in a group 3 around there, and he did a survey or -- or did something 4 here, and put this together. 5 Q Mr. Pogue was a Monsanto employee? 6 A Yes, he was. 7 Q Did you assist him with information for his 8 study or work? 9 A I don't think I did. No, I don't think so. 10 I -- 11 Q Did you see Mr. Pogue's work at about the time 12 he published it? 13 A Well, I got a copy, I would think, didn't I? 14 Yeah; a copy after -- after he put it together. I 15 didn't see it while it was being put together. 16 Q Didyou findanything in there that you 17 disagreed with when you saw it? 18 A I -- I ~ 19 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, continue to read 20 it. 21 A Well, I can't -- 22 BY MR. LACEY: 23 Q We don't have time for you to read a hundred 24 pages. 25 A No. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024769 114 1 Q I'm trying to find out if there were things in 2 there when you got the document you thought Mr. Pogue 3 was just wrong about. 4 A I-- 5 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, that's not 6 specific. Objection. 7 A I had no control over Mr. Pogue, David. 8 BY MR. LACEY: 9 Q Well, I understand that. What I'm trying to 10 find out is: You -- 11 A There was -- there was no concerted action I 12 took one way or another. I wasn't asked to. This was 13 done completely independent of me, and -- 14 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, you just can't 15 recall at this point, can you, the details 16 of -- 17 THE WITNESS: NO, I couldn't 18 possibly. 19 BY MR. LACEY: 20 Q Well, let me ask you -- 21 A I didn't run up and down, you know, yelling 22 about anything or complimenting -- I was neutral on 23 this. It wasn't my -- my -- I didn't ask for this. 24 Q Well, were you concerned with whether or not it 25 was factually accurate or not? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024770 115 1 A I had no say-so over Mr. Pogue. 2 Q No, I understand. But you got a copy of the 3 document. 4 A Yes, I did. It says so. 5 Q It went to some pretty importantpeople there 6 in Monsanto, including Mr. Bergen, didn't it? 7 A Yeah. 8 Q Now, had you read the document and found it had 9 substantial inaccuracies in it, it would have been your 10 job to report that to your superiors, wouldn't it 11 (tendering)? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And that would have been Mr. Olsen and 14 Mr. Bergen, wouldn't it? 15 A Munch, Richard; Davis would be -- Davis was on 16 this. There were people here more accurately concerned 17 than myself about about inaccuracies, I would say, if 18 there were. I -- I don't know. I -- I don't know what 19 we're driving at, David. I did not take direct action 20 that I remember (tendering). 21 Q On Page 27934, Mr. Pogue says, "Our most 22 significant problem is the utilities' reluctance to 23 expose personnel and customers to Askarel fumes and 24 irritation. This has resulted from several widely 25 publicized explosions and from frequent bothersome NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024771 116 1 transformer leaks." 2 And do you agree with what Mr. Pogue had to say 3 there? 4 A There were not frequent exposures. 5 Q Okay. 6 A If you will look at the Edison Electric 7 Institute, their report on the incident of primary 8 failure, which is an expression of explosion, it is 9 very, very low. It's the order of a few hundredths of a 10 percent in an operating year. 11 So I'd say he's wrong about that part of it. 12 Now, there can be other things, David. 13 Q I see. 14 MR. LACEY: Why don't we change the 15 tape. 16 17 (Recess) 18 19 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN: We've been off 20 the record for a moment to change the 21 tape. We're now back on the record. The 22 time is 2:52 p.m. 23 BY MR. LACEY: 24 Q Mr. Pogue indicates at Page 27935, "We must 25 address ourselves to frequent utility technical service NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024772 117 1 visits to neutralize emotions on Askarel's toxicity and 2 handling." 3 Do you agree that that was a necessary program 4 of Monsanto? 5 A It had not been. This is his point of view. 6 Q Did you agree with it? 7 A I would -- I -- I don't disagree with this. 8 What's the date on his thing? 9 Q February 1970. 10 A 1970? 11 Q 1970. 12 A Well, I don't disagree with that. I did that 13 myself, David. 14 MR. CRAWFORD: What was the question, 15 now? 16 MR. LACEY: Whether he agrees with 17 that approach of going out and meeting 18 with these utility people. 19 BY MR. LACEY: 20 Q Do you agree? 21 A David, I did that. 22 Q On Page -- 23 A So I agree with it. 24 Now, I didn't write this. I didn't tell Pogue 25 to write that, but -- NELL MC CA' LUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024773 118 1 Q I understand. 2 A -- I did that kind of work. 3 Q I understand. 4 A I called on a lot of utilities. 5 Q He goes on -- 6 A He's agreeing with what I did. 7 Q I see. 8 He goes on to say on Page 27939, "Only through 9 increased personal contact with utilities and industry 10 can we expect to improve our market position and 11 maximize Monsanto's new opportunities." 12 Do you agree with that? 13 A I won't disagree with it, no. 14 Q Okay. 15 MR. CRAWFORD: This is 1970? 16 MR. LACEY: This is 1970. 17 A Yeah. I was -- I was no longer active, but -- 18 BY MR. LACEY: 19 Q He -- he goes on -- 20 A He arrives at what I was doing. 21 Q He -- he goes on to say, "To produce results 22 and improved image and to gain in-depth market 23 understanding, personal contact annually with a 24 estimated 50 to 100 large firms in our diverse 25 industrial market and to about 25 larger investor-owned NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024774 119 1 utilities is required." 2 A Oh, that's remarkable. 3 Q You agree with that? 4 A Yes. I was trying to do this, David. 5 Q Okay. So he recommends exactly what you were 6 doing? 7 A Yes, he sure does. 8 Q All right. 9 A I called on a lot of utilities, I called on a 10 lot of industrial places, and I was very active in that 11 at one period of time. 12 Q I see. 13 MR. CRAWFORD: That was back in the 14 '60's. Is that correct? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. I was active in 16 this in the '60's. Maybe he heard about 17 it, and that's why he's writing this. 18 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, don't speculate 19 about something that -- 20 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I -- I'm sorry. 21 BY HR. LACEY: 22 Q Mr. Pogue indicates at Page 27959 that the 23 market share -- and he's talking about transformer uses 24 for Askarel transformers -- he says that "our market 25 share of 20 percent does not appear stable." NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024775 120 1 He goes on to say, "Contacts with utilities 2 indicate that during recent years because of larger 3 multi-story buildings, inside basement network vaults 4 and upper floor networks are becoming increasingly 5 popular. Unfortunately, dry types or upper floor 6 service are preferred (weight and Askarel's installation 7 cost), and often oil is used inside because utilities 8 feel Askarel must be vaulted anyway (fear of explosion 9 and fumes)." 10 Do you agree with those concerns he had about 11 Monsanto's market for PCB transformers? 12 A In a way, I agree. But there's more to it, 13 this story, than that. 14 If one wishes to handle this subject, you must 15 also concede that a dry-type transformer will blow and 16 create a lot of fumes and problems. 17 I don't disagree with what he says. What he 18 says is not a complete assessment -- 19 Q I see. 20 A -- is what I'm saying, David. 21 Q He goes on with regard to talking about the 22 attitude on Page 27965 and says, "Askarel's image with 23 the utilities contacted in this study was entirely 24 unsatisfactory. Many have reluctantly used and lived 25 with Askarel fluid for years because they have had NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024776 121 1 little choice when safety from fires is required." 2 Do you agree with that? 3 MR. CRAWFORD: This is in 1970, now. 4 A This -- I was not active any more at this time. 5 He is pointing out a very fundamental concept of the 6 Askarel transformer, its fire-resistance. I have to 7 agree with that. That's the reason for its being. 8 BY MR. LACEY: 9 Q Do you agree that Askarel's image with 10 utilities is entirely unsatisfactory and that they have 11 only reluctantly lived with Askarel transformers? 12 MR. CRAWFORD: In 1970. 13 A I didn't call on them in 1970. I called on 14 many utilities earlier. 15 It was a judgment by the head engineer at the 16 utility. He either favored Askarel and was almost 100 17 percent Askarel, or he went the other way and went dry 18 type. It was a judgment matter by the individual. 19 Now, if he called on only people who favored 20 Askarel, he'd get one point of view. If he called on 21 people who didn't, he'd have another. Now, I don't know 22 who he called on, David. 23 BY MR. LACEY: 24 Q Some utilities did everything in their power to 25 avoid using PCBs transformers, didn't they? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024777 122 1 A And some did everything in their power to use 2 it. 3 Q Can you answer the question I've asked? 4 A I'm sorry. 5 Q Some utilities did everything in their power to 6 avoid using PCB transformers, didn't they? 7 A I don't know. Let me put it this way: Some 8 utilities did not use, did not have Askarel 9 transformers. It was their flavor and judgment to use 10 dry type. I'm talking about utility networks. 11 Now, in some other areas, it was absolutely the 12 opposite. 13 You didn't have a mixture, is what I found. 14 Either you were on one side, or you were on the other 15 side, David. 16 Q He goes on to say on Page 27966, "Askarel's 17 basic problem is one of toxicity and handling. Workers 18 do not like the fluid because it irritates the skin, and 19 residual Aroclor 1260 is sticky and difficult to remove 20 from spills, leaks and inside arc to transformers. 21 "This situation is felt in the marketplace. 22 Consolidated Edison, who controls about 45 percent of 23 the entire network transformer market, has chosen to 24 absolutely minir- -- minimize Askarel in either: 25 1. Networks outside or inside buildings; 2. Substation NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024778 123 1 unit for generating plants, due to a record of several 2 lawsuits from explosions in Askarel units. In one case 3 two people -'died in the HC1 fumes, and in the other case 4 two -- in the other two cases, fumes caused adverse 5 feedback from the building occupants. 6 "United Electric and Virginia Electric and 7 Power Company began phasing Askarel out of their network 8 systems following similar conditions of fumes resulting 9 from an explosion that created adverse publicity." 10 Do you agree with those statements? 11 A Those things must have happened. 12 MR. CRAWFORD: Do you know anything 13 about that? 14 THE WITNESS: No, I never read this 15 until now. 16 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, don't agree with 17 it unless you know about it. 18 BY MR. LACEY: 19 Q Do you have any reason to believe the situation 20 that Mr. Pogue is reporting to Monsanto in this Monsanto 21 document is not true? 22 A I do not, no. 23 Q There's no reason for him not to be truthful 24 about it, is there? 25 A That's right. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024779 124 1 MR. CRAWFORD: But you don't know the 2 facts? 3 THE WITNESS: I don't know the facts. 4 I called in these areas ten years before. 5 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. 6 A Now, he's mentioning Virginia Electric and 7 Power. They were very heavy on Askarel transformers. 8 Now, he goes ten years later and probably meets 9 different people. 10 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, don't testify 11 to something -- about something you don't 12 know anything about. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm not testifying 14 on -- on this. I've answered Mr. Lacey's 15 question. 16 BY MR. LACEY: 17 q The -- if, in fact, Virginia Power was very 18 high on Askarel transformers in the 1960's, apparently, 19 if Mr. Pogue is not being untruthful, they strongly 20 changed their position after they had some problems with 21 them. Isn't that correct? 22 MR. CRAWFORD: Object to the form. 23 Do you know? Tell him what you know. 24 If you know anything about it, tell him. 25 If you don't - NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024780 125 1 THE WITNESS: All I know is what 2 David, Mr. Lacey, is -- is reading. 3 A And I -- I have to say Pogue was an honest man, 4 which is what you said. 5 BY MR. LACEY: 6 Q Okay. You don't have any question about his 7 honesty, do you? 8 A No. 9 Q Or hiscompetence to do a studylike that -- 10 A No. 11 Q -- and --and put together on accurate report? 12 A No. He's doing hisbest. 13 Q Okay. 14 MR. CRAWFORD: But you personally 15 don't know anything about the facts? 16 THE WITNESS: I wasn't there when -- 17 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. 18 THE WITNESS: -- whenever he's 19 talking about. 20 BY MR. LACEY: 21 Q Now, you spenta lot of time outof the United 22 States -- 23 A Yes, I did. 24 Q -- after sometime in the '60's or early '70's. 25 Correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024781 126 1 A Well, why are you smiling? 2 Q Well, I'm just -- 3 A Yes, you're right; a great deal of time. 4 Q I smile -- I don't know; I guess I need to stop 5 smiling. 6 A No. 7 Q People seem to be concerned when I smile. 8 A No. You can smile. 9 Q Okay. 10 In that connection, did you ever get toJapan? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Did -- now, over there in Japan, Monsanto had a 13 joint venture with Mitsubishi to produce PCBs, did they 14 not ? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Did you learn about the Japanese problems with 17 PCBs -- and I'm talking particularly now about the Yusho 18 incident -- when you went to Japan? 19 A No. I was before that. 20 Q I see. Did you keep up with the situation in 21 Japan after that occurred as a part of your world 22 interest? 23 A No, I did not. 24 Q I see. You don't know anything, then, about 25 when Japan decided to ban the use of PCBs? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024782 127 1 A Yes, I do. 2 Q Okay. Well, I'm sorry. I -- that -- that's 3 what I was leading to. Well, when -- when did the 4 Japanese decide to ban the use of PCBs? 5 A Let me think a bit. 6 I think -- and this is by memory -- I think it 7 would probably have been sometime in 1968. It's in that 8 period, as best I can remember. 9 Q Okay. And they stopped at that point using 10 PCBs for any application -- 11 A Yes. 12 Q -- did they not? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Did they have any substantial problems with 15 their electric system that you recall? 16 MR. CRAWFORD: If you know. 17 A None that I know of. 18 BY MR. LACEY: 19 Q Okay. 20 A NO. 21 May I make a comment on the last thing, David? 22 Q Well, what would you like to comment on? 23 A I would like to tell you something you probably 24 don't know. 25 Their electric system was much different than NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024783 128 1 ours. At this point of time, David, the Japanese were 2 just coming around to sort of adopting our way of using 3 capacitors is what I'm driving at. They had an ^ 4 altogether different arrangement. The systems weren't 5 similar in terms of what we're talking about. 6 Q I see. 7 I don't think, when I took your deposition 8 previously, I had time to ask you about the occasions 9 when you had been deposed before. How many times have 10 you been deposed before? 11 A I know of one. 12 Q What was that? 13 A That was over the telephone. 14 Q Was it a deposition where you were sworn in and 15 all that sort of thing? 16 A Over the telephone. 17 Q Were you sworn in? 18 A I'm not being facetious. 19 Q You were -- were you -- 20 A Do you believe me, David? 21 Q I believe you. I believe you. 22 A Well, you'd better. I was sworn in over the 23 telephone. There was a snowstorm. 24 May I laugh? 25 Q What -- what did that have to do with? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024784 129 1 A Because we couldn't get together here in a 2 room. 3 Q Right. 4 A And they wanted to proceed, and the snow was so 5 thick we couldn't get together, and I sat on the 6 phone -- 7 Q Okay. 8 A -- and talked to them, David. 9 Q Okay. What -- what did that involve, that 10 deposition? 11 A That involved a case in Texas; in Greenville, 12 Texas. 13 Q Greenville? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Did it involve PCBs? 16 A Yes. 17 Q What -- what happened in that case; what the 18 facts were? Do you know? 19 A It was a transformer maker. 20 Q They made them inGreenville, Texas? 21 A Yes, they did. 22 Q And -- and were they suing somebody, or were 23 they being sued by somebody, or -- 24 A They were being sued. Well, now, wait a 25 minute. I don't know if they were being sued. The EPA NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024785 130 1 was after them. 2 Q I see. They had some pollution problems? 3 A Yes, they had pollution problems. This is it. 4 Q And you testified in that regard? 5 A This is right. 6 Q Is that the only case you ever recall giving a 7 deposition in before? 8 A No. There's a second one. Now -- this was -- 9 was Jacksonville, Florida. 10 Q The second one? 11 A Yes. In fact, that was the first one. it 12 doesn't matter. They were close together. 13 Q Right. What was the Jacksonville, Florida -- 14 A The Jacksonville, Florida, was a situation 15 where there was a high-rise office building, relatively 16 new. And they were fitted with Askarel transformers. 17 And a consultant came by, and -- this was, now, 18 after 1978, the environmental situation -- and the 19 consultant said, "Those are Askarel transformers. Take 20 them out." 21 They did this. They did not have to do this, 22 but they did it. So they incurred considerable expense 23 doing it, and they wanted their money back. It was an 24 unfortunate decision they made at that point in time. 25 The transformers had caused no trouble. They were NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024786 131 1 running perfectly, nicely, normally. And they made this 2 change-out and caused themselves a lot of expense, and 3 they wanted their money back. 4 Q And who were they -- who were they suing? 5 Monsanto or -- 6 A No. They were suing General Electric Company. 7 Q And -- and you were testifying on behalf of 8 General Electric -- 9 A Yes, really; yes. 10 Q -- that it wasn't necessary to do that, to 11 change them out? 12 A Well, I know they didn't have to do that. This 13 is correct. 14 15 (At this point in the deposition, a 16 hotel employee interrupted the deposition 17 to give a message slip to Mr. Lacey, and 18 then left the deposition room) 19 20 BY MR. LACEY: 21 Q Are those the only two times that you have 22 testified? 23 A That's the only two times. 24 Q You've never testified at trial? 25 A No. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024787 132 1 Q This event where the transformers were changed 2 out in Jacksonville: Was that after 1970? 3 MR. CRAWFORD: '78, he -- 4 A Oh, yes. Yes. 5 MR. CRAWFORD: '78, he said. 6 BY MR. LACEY: 7 Q It was 1978? 8 A I believe so. 9 Q I'm sorry. I thought you said it was around 10 1970. I wasn't sure. 11 A Oh, I said it was after the 1970 environmental 12 thing got going. 13 Q Yes. And I was trying to find out the year. 14 MR. CRAWFORD: '78. 15 BY MR. LACEY: 16 Q You think it was '78? 17 A I don't know. I guess something like -- I 18 really don't know. I -- if I knew, I'd tell you, David. 19 Q Okay. You just know it was sometime after 20 1970? 21 A Oh, yes; after the environmental thing. 22 Q Okay. Do you know whether or not the 23 consultant who suggested the transformers be changed out 24 was concerned about these explosions with Askarel 25 transformers? NELL MC CA' LUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024788 133 1 A He was not, to my knowledge. No, sir. 2 Q What was the basis for his -- 3 A The environmental. 4 Q I see. And you don't believe that the problems 5 with the explosions of Askarel transformers contributed 6 to that recommendation at all? 7 A To my understanding, not at all. 8 Q Okay. 9 A The transformers gave perfectly good service. 10 Q Well, I guess that wasn't really my question. 11 The question was whether or not he -- you knew whether 12 he had heard about these explosions -- 13 A No. 14 Q -- that Mr. Pogue mentioned? 15 A No, David, he had not. 16 Q I see. 17 A I'm quite sure of this. It was an 18 environmental thing that caused this premature phase-out 19 or move-out. 20 Q Okay. 21 MR. LACEY: I will pass the witness 22 at this point. 23 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. Well, we'll 24 reserve our questions. 25 Thank you. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024789 134 1 (Discussion off the record) 2 3 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN: This concludes 4 the deposition of Mr. Benignus. The time 5 is 3:12 p.m. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ******* 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024790 135 1 THE STATE OF ............... * 2* 3 COUNTY OF - - ................- - * 4 5 I, PAUL G. BENIGNUS, hereby certify that I 6 have read the foregoing transcript of ray testimony given 7 in the foregoing numbered and styled case, and that same 8 is true and correct to the best of my knowledge and 9 belief. 10 I further certify that any and all 11 corrections have been made on a separate page and 12 attached hereto. 13 SIGNED on this theday of, 14 19 87. 15 16 PAUL G. BENIGNUS 17 18 SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED BEFORE ME on this 19 the.......... dav of -............. ...................., 1987. 20 21 22 Notary Public 23 24 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. STLCOPCB4024791 136 1 THE STATE OF TEXAS * 2 COUNTY OF HARRIS * 3 4 I, LINDA C. BAKER, a Certified Shorthand 5 Reporter, hereby certify that the foregoing testimony 6 was given before me after the Witness had been first 7 duly sworn. 8 I further certify that I prepar ed this 9 transcript and that the foregoing 135 pages constitute a 10 complete and correct copy of the transcript of the 11 proceedings, and that the original is being given to the 12 attorney taking same, to be filed by him if necessary, 13 I further certify that I am nei ther attorney 14 for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to 15 the lawsuit in which this deposition was ta ken; further, 16 I am neither related to nor employed by any attorney of 17 record in this cause, nor do I have a finan cial interest 18 in the matter. 19 GIVEN UNDER MY HAND AND SEAL OF OFFICE in 20 Houston, Texas, on this the day of June, 1987. 21 22 23 Certification Number Date of Expiration: December 31, 1988 24 Address: 2900 Smith Street, Suite 104 Houston, Texas 77006 25 Phone: 713/523-3767 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. STLCOPCB4024792 1 2 Page Line 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LAWYER'S NOTES NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. 137 STLCOPCB4024793