Document vV9vd1Rpr3Oqa1O40Bzy3x9LE

Boar a o f works, a . w . i . 19 2 8 . N0TE3 Of EVIDENCE f.~ Salt an b s fo r a THE COMMITTEE APPOINTED BY THE MIITI3T2 R CP HEALTH "To en q u ir e in t o t h e p o s s ib le clangers t o h e a lt h r e s u lt in g from t h e u se o f m otor s p i r i t co n t a in in g le a d t e t r a - e t h y l or s im ila r le a d - co n t a in in g compounds, and t o r ep o r t mat p r e ca u t io n s, i f an y, a r e d e s ir a b le fo r t h e p r otection o f the p u b lic or of in d ivid u a ls in con n ection tv with t h e u se and h a n d lin g o f su ch m otor s p i r i t . " P resen t:- 3i r Predartele W illis , K.B .E ., C.B. (Ch a irman) Dr J . C. Br id ge , p .R .c .3. ~ P r o fe s s o r A* C* Chapman, y . R . 3 . P r o fe s s o r w. E* Dixon , MJ iu, F.R*3. Major w. H* Calwey* O .B.E ., M .C., 1UB. $ Dr c. H. La n d er , D. 3c . S ir Ch a r les J * M a r tin , C.M.G., D .s c ., P . R . s . , fi.R .C.p Mr D. R. Pye Sir Robert Robertson S ir w illia m WillCOX, K .C .I .E ., C .B .,M .D ., F .R .C.P . Mr s ; P* 3. H oar d er, ( s e c r e t a r y ) .... 2 ^ ( T r a n s cr ip t from th e Sh orth an d n o t es o f GEORGE MOORE & Co*, 5 8 , Parliam en t s t r e e t , Westm in ster, 3 .W ,l. > * Teleph on e:- Victo r ia 8 75. ) K 0018258 1 Dr ll. COPIAH'S c a lle d and exam in ed . . * *" e v ,L I,S.ki Pi CHAIRKAM: You a r e an H.D. o f London, I u n d e r s t a n d ? ---- Yes.-' `is 0 You have s t u d ie d m ed icin e and t h e d e t a ils o f m ed icin e? -- C You have done a good d e a l o f r e s e a r ch w o r k ? ---- Ye s . . 0, You h ave p u b lish ed a work in th e J ou r n a l o f To xico lo vgy, ^ '2& and you h ave been a s s o cia t e d w it h S i r Rich ar d Graham, a fe llo w o f The Royal s o c ie t y , on t h is same s u b j e c t ? ---- tfot^ e x a c t ly t h e same s u b je ct b u t on t o x in s . 0 we a r e ve r y much o b lige d t o you fo r fu r n is h in g t h is Memorandum you have sen t in t o u s: <w s h a ll keep i t oh ou r r e co r d s , arid we p r op ose t o p u t some q u e s t io n s t o you `-`v s a r is in g ou t o f you r work, m th e m ain, o f cou r se, what A we want t o know from you la p r e c is e ly what exp er im en ts you y o u r s e lf have made, you r o b s e r va t io n s and what r e s u lt s / you h ave o b t a in e d , nd what d e d u ct io n s , i f a n y, you have drawn from t h e exp er im en t s. , X n o t ic e , fo r in s t a n ce , t h a t you p a id a v i s i t t o th e Un ited 3t a t e e in th e summer o f 1927, < v '# and you took th e op p or t u n it y of co n s u lt in g va r io u s p eop le In Am erica in r ega r d t'p t h e u se o f e t h yl p e t r o l. You th en - - = -:' - - - .................: ' ^ :T V ' . ' . r e fe r u s to t h e r e p o r t o f The Bureau or Mines in r ega r d t o - t h e exp er im en ts wh ich th ey n ave ca r r ie d o u t , and you r efer 'u tf^ j t o va r io u s Am erican r e p o r t s . On t h 3 t i may soy t h a t t h e ' Committee h ave b een fu r n is h e d with p r a c t i c a lly a l l t h e s e fc r e p o r t s t h a t you have m en tion ed; s t i l l , we a r e much o b lige d *v t o you f o r g iv in g ua th e r e fe r e n ce s . X ga t h e r t h a t you '. v do n ot in you r p a p er r e fe r t o tn o Su r geo n -Gen er a l's r e p o r t . 1. were you aware o f t h a t r e p o r t ? -- Oh y e s . u iiAiHMAN: You a r e an K.D. o f London, X u n d e r s t a n d ? ---- y e s , , Q You have st u d ie d m ed icin e and t h e d e t a ils o f m ed icin e? --. Y$itf .** * q You h ave done a good d e a l o f r e s e a r ch work? ---- Y e e . . *OP Q, You h ave p u b lish ed a work In *th e J ou r n a l o f To xico lo gy, and you have been a s s o cia t e d with S ir Rich ar d Graham, ;'f* .i5i ' a fa llo w o f The Royal s o c ie t y , on t h is same s u b j e c t ? H ot ' ----------------------------------- "---ft e x a c t ly th e same s u b je ct b u t on t o x in s , q Ye a r e ve r y much o b lige d t o you fo r fu r n is h in g t h is Memorand urn you h ave sen t in t o u s: wo s h a ll keep i t oh ou r r e co r d s , and we p rop ose t o p u t some q u e s t io n s t o you a r is in g ou t o f you r work. In th e m ain , of cou r se, what we want t o know from you is p r e c is e ly what exp er im en ts you y o u r s e lf h ave made, you r o b s e r va t io n s and what r e s u l t s ^ you have o b t a in e d , and what d e d u ct io n s, i f an y, you have drawn from t h e exp er im en t s. X n o t ic e , fo r in s t a n ce , t h a t you . . p a id a v i s i t t o th e United, s t a t e s in th e summer o f 1927, and you took th e op p or t u n it y of co n s u lt in g va r io u s p eop le in Am erica in r ega r d t o th e u se o f e t h yl p e t r o l. You then r e fe r u s to th e r e p o r t o f The Bureau o f Mines in r ega r d t o t h e exp er im en ts wh ich th ey have ca r r ie d o u t , and y ou r$ t&r u s - > t o va r io u s Am erican r e p o r t s . On t h 3 t I may sa y t h a t t h e ' Committee h ave been fu r n is h e d with p r a c t ic a lly a l l t h e s e ^ r e p o r t s t h a t you have m en tion ed; s t i l l , we a r e much o b lige d X t o you fo r g ivin g ua th e r e fe r e n ce s . I ga t h e r t h a t you . do n ot in you r p ap ef. r e fe r t o th o Su r geo n -Gen er a l's r e p o r t . ... Were you aware o f t h a t r e p o r t ? -- Oh y e s . Q. p or in s t a n ce , X n o t ice t h a t p r o fe s s o r E d e a ll o f H arvard sign ed a p r elim in a r y r ep or t with a Hr Dr in ker , and th ey give r a th er a d iffe r e n t view as to th e dan ger of eth yl p e t r o l from t h a t wh ich Was su b seq u en t ly a r r ive d a t by 'S'* th e Government com m ittee in Am er ica; and p r o fe s s o r E d s a ll ' ; '..V. ....' $ o f H arvard was a memberfof t h i s Committee su b seq u en t ly; ` ui- u-. ^,,ans I <10 n ot know wh eth er you a r e aware o f t h a t ? - This r e p o r t was p u b lish e d in 19 2 5. >' /v* 1A-T-f q Tea . -- I r a t h e r t h in k t h a t t h e 3u r geon -Qen er a l*s r e p o r t " #fA saw t h e li g h t o f day somewhere abou t J an u ary 1926* - q Th at i s r ig h t } and t h e work was don e, t t h in k , between - -- May 1925 and t h e end o f 19 2 5. The w r it t e n r e p o r t was p u b lish ed in 1926. -- I t h in k th e Su r geon -d en er al in h is r e p o r t asked f o r an a p p r o p r ia t io n from Con gr ess /- s . in or d er t o ca r r y on exp erim en ts. Q That i s q u it e t r u e ; h u t t h e y d id is s u e a r e p o r t in 19 2 6 . I n o tice t h a t you r e fe r t o ce r t a in d iscr ep a n cies between - K*S t h e f u l l r e p o r t o f The Bureau o f H in es wh ich was p u b lis h e d in 19 2 7 and th e d r a ft p r e lim in a r y r e p o r t wh ich t h e y made in 19214.? -- Tea . q The f u l l r e p o r t in 1927 o f cou r se em braces a g r e a t d e a l Ax -t V j- more th a n what had been done in 19 24-? --- A good d eal o f t h a t work r e fe r s t o m a t t er s o u t s id e o u r scop e here, _^ q You a r e q u it e r ig h t * v Th is Com m ittee i s con cer n ed * .K t o en q. u i'r e in t o t h e q u e st io n o f wh eth er t h e r e i s- an. y` ',v; d an ger from t h e u se o f com m ercial e t h yl p e t r o l. 1 n o t ice t h a t you r e fe r t o t h e p o s s ib le dan ger in t r a f f i c b lo ck s o f en la r ge number o f ca r s u sin g e t h yl * ' J . '- - p e t r o lf --- Yes* . .. q Have you y o u r s e lf made an y exp er im en ts t o a s c e r t a in A$ t h e s e f a c t s t ~ I have t a ken them from P r o fe s s o r liendersorf s work in Hew York? b u t 1 t h in k I was q u o t in g from th e r e p o r t s , q Th at i s what 1 ga t h e r e d . You y o u r s e lf n ave n ot done an y exp er im en ts o f t h a t kin d ? ~ -- Ho. -V t a w t h e li g h t o f hay somewhere abou t J an u ary 1926, 0, Th at la r ig h t } and t h f work was don a, I t h in k , between 7:*--7 Hay 1925 and t h a and o f 19 2$ . Tha w r it t e n r e p o r t wae p u b lish ed in 19 2 6 . - -- I t h in k t h e Su r geon -Oen er al In h is r ep o r t asked f o r an a p p r o p r ia t io n from con gr ess in or d er t o ca r r y on exp erim en t*, q t h a t i s q u it e t r u e ; b u t t h e y d id is s u e a r e p o r t in 19 2 6 . I n o tice th a t you re fe r to ce rta in d is cre pan cie s between the f u l l repo rt o f The Bureau o f Hines which was pu blis h e d in 19 2 7 and th e d r a ft p r e lim in a r y r e p o r t wh ich t h e y made.! in 1924? -- y e s . ' '1 Q m e f u l l r e p o r t in 1927 o f cou r se em braces a g r e a t d e a l more t h a n what had been done in 1 9 2 4 7 ---- A good d ea l o f t h a t work r e fe r s t o m a t t er s o u t s id e o u r scop e here. ,' q You a r e q u it e r ig h t . Th is com m ittee i s con cern ed ' t o en q u i'r e in t o t h e 7q u e st io n o f wh eth.er t h e r e i s a n y d an ger from t h e u se o f com m ercial e t h yl p e t r o l. I n o t ice t h a t you r e fe r t o t h e p o s s ib le d an ger in t r a f f i c b lo ck s o f -a la r g e number o f ca r s u s in g e t h y l p e t r o l? --- .Tes, _ ' ' . , - 1 T: 'A q Have you y o u r s e lf made an y exp er im en t s t o a s c e r t a in t h e se f a c t s ? ---- X iiave t a ken them from p r o fe s s o r ,-y . ,- , Henderson s-work in Hew York; but X th in k I was quo tin g from th e r ep o r t s q That i s what Z gath e re d, you yo u r s e lf nave no t done any vRT mm To :Ml .he".> y#l| experiments o f th at kind? Ho< Ur o o plan s q Yen a le e r e fe r t o t h e p o s s io ie p o llu t io n o f w e lls and wa ter s u p p li e s ? ----Yes* q Fat you h ave made no exam in ation o f wa ter s u p p lie s and w ells in order to see whether th ey are p ollu ted ? -- The exp er im en ts were con du cted in su ch a way t h a t one t would n e ce s s a r ily in fe r t h a t i t was p o s s ib le t o p o llu t e 'J these p laces, : 0 I suppose you would a gr e e g e n e r a lly w it h t h is ; we a l l Know t h e dan ger o f lead p o iso n in g, and t h a t a c e r t a in amount o f lead i s n ecessa r y t o p rod u ce lea d p o iso n in g. But i f you h ave an in fin it e s im a l amount o f lea d in a r iv e r , t h a t i s n ot d an ger ou s. I f you h ave a la r ge amount o f lead in a r iv e r , o f cou r se i t would be d an ger ou s. I t i s a q u e s t io n o f amount? -- And t im e , s i r , q And tim e? -- And o f'c o u r s e t h e amount in vo lve s t h e q u e s t io n off sex and a ge , q Ye s . What exp er im en ts have you y o u r s e lf d on e, F ir s t o f a l l I th in K you h ave had an exam in ation mad o f t h e lea d co n t e n t s in t h e e xcr e t a o f c e r t a in men who had worKed i n aga r a ge^ ? , ' There wer e two men who were Kept under in d ep en d en t m ed ica l o b s e r va t io n by t h e ir own d o ct o r s and a ls o by a s p e c ia lis t ' ? r e p r e s e n t in g a London t e a ch in g h o s p it a l, where t h e y a r e exp ected t o do t h a t worK, w it h t h e r e s u lt s t h a t I have s t a t e d . Th ere were o n ly two m ech an ics employed a t t h is p la c e ., o t h er w ise more men would have been exam in ed, bu t i t was n ot p o s s ib le t o examine more th an two men. I t was n ece ss a r y t o litV** q But you h ave made no exam in ation o f wa ter s u p p lie s and w ells in order to see whether th ey are p ollu ted ? -- The exp er im en ts were con du cted in su ch a way t h a t one - would n e ce s s a r ily in fe r t h a t i t was p o ssib le t o p o llu t e th ese p laces. ,,, Q X suppose you would a gr e e g e n e r a lly w it h t h is ; we a l l Know c? t h e dan ger o f lea d p o iso n in g, and t h a t a c e r t a in amount o f ^ lea d i s n ece ssa r y t o p rod u ce lea d p o iso n in g. But i f you h a ve ; an in fin it e s im a l amount o f lead in a r iv e r , t h a t i s n ot d an ger ou s. I f you h ave a la r g e amount o f lea d in a r i v e r , 1 "K - "'V' - o f cou r se i t would he d an ger ou s. I t i s a q u e s t io n o f amount? ----And t im e , s i r . 0, And tim e? -- And o f cou r se t h e amount in vo lve s t h e q u e s t io n o sex and a ge, -'i Q, Yes. What exp er im en ts h ive you y o u r s e lf don e. F ir s t o f a l l j ' -S I th in K you h ave had an exam in ation made o f. t h e lea d co n t e n t s | in t h e e xcr e t a o f c e r t a in men who had worxed i n aga r a ge> ? / -- There wer e two men who wer e Kept under in d ep en d en t m ed ica l o b s e r va t io n by t h e ir own d o ct o r s and a ls o by a s p e c ia lis t r e p r e s e n t in g a London t e a ch in g h o s p it a l, where t h e y a r e exp ected t o do t h a t worK, w it h t h e r e s u lt s t h a t I have s t a t e d . There were o n ly two" m ech an ics employed a t t h i s p la c e d o t h e r w is e more men would h ave been exam in ed, b u t i t was n ot.. ! p o s s ib le t o examine more th a n two men, i t was n e ce ss a r y t o o b t a in t h e ir con sen t, and t h e r e was a s p e c ia l cir cu m s t a n ce , '. * ----V t h a t t h i s .t h in g had s t a r t e d by b ein g asKed t o g ive an ' . . . & : . <*" ' ", ' op in ion about one c a r ,! i began by h avin g t h e en gin es t e s t e d . I t h en a d vise d t h a t t h e s e men sh ou ld be m e d ica lly taKen ca r e , ': . , \ *0 ' o f, and a fo r t n ig h t o r t h r e e weeKS ela p sed b e fo r e t h e con sen t ,, was ob t a in ed and t h e men exam in ed, ; Dr ooplans Q you d id n oot examine t h e s e men b e fo r e you r exp er im en t st a r t e d * ---- Ko; t h ey were n ot examined a t a i l a s fa r a s I Know* 0. You do n et Know wh eth er i f you had examined them a month b efo r e t h is worK s t a r t e d you would h ave found t h e same amount o f lead ? ---- I t is q u it e p o ssib le* v q Youdo n ot Know*?-----i do n ot Know a t a l l . But I u n d er stan d ; t h a t i t i s p o s s ib le t h a t t h e s e men do h an d le lea d o c c a s io n a lly But t h e y do n ot h an d le i t in t h is form ; th ey h a n d le i t in t h e , o r d in a r y form -- t h a t may be in m ass, o And you o n ly examined t h e bowel con t en t o f on e o f t h e s e men? ---- A ll t h e s e men were examined b e fo r e I exam ined them, q But you d id n ot ge t a p r op er p er son t o examine t h e bowel con t en t o f men worKin g in ga r a ges who were n ot s u ffe r in g from t e t r a - e t h y l, fo r com parison ? - -- Ho, I d id n o t . Aft e r a l l t h is i s a very sm all fa c t , 0. I am n ot sa yin g wh eth er you sh ou ld o r sh ou ld n ot h ave done so? In t h i s co n n ect io n i t was n ot don e, q Then you m ice a ge n e r a l st a t em en t ; sp e ct r o s co p ic exa m in a tion - w it h photograph! r ecor d was employed on ever y o cca s io n fo r th e purpose o f d e t ect io n o f th e presen ce o f lead , i s th at a q u a n tita tive t e s t ? -- with in aertain lim its i t is ; both q u a n t it a t ive and q u a lit a t iv e . q You do nQt.ke<g4&f e n t ir e ly on t h e s p e ct r o s co p ic exam in ation ? -- I d id n ot "exam ine a t a l l , I sim p ly examined t h e r e p o r t s o f t h e d o ct o r s who examined them . , Q Did t h o se p eop le who d id examine them depend e n t ir e ly on s p e ct r o s co p ic exam in ation ? ---- I am n ot p rep ar ed t o sa y, Q you do n ot Know wh eth er t h e y go t t h e leaf! ou t and weigh ed i t ? q you do n et enow n eth er i f you had examined them a month 'i '-fiiik' b e fo r e t h i s worK s t a r t e d you would h ave found t h e same amount o f le a d ? ---- I t i s q u it e p o s s ib le , - q you do n ot xncjw< ?--- I do n ot Know a t a l l . But I u n d erstan d t h a t i t i s p o s s ib le t h a t t h e s e men do h an d le lea d o cca s io n a lly But t h e y do n ot h an d le i t in t h is form ; t h ey h a n d le i t in t h e " o r d in a r y form -- t h a t may be in m ass, q And you o n ly examined t h e bowel co n t en t o f on e o f t h e s e men? ---- A ll t h e s e men were examined b e fo r e I exam ined them, q But you d id n ot g e t a p r op er p er son t o examine t h e bowel con t en t o f men wor xin g in ga r a ges who were n ot s u ffe r in g from t e t r a - e t h y l, fo r com parison ? - -- Ho, I d id n o t . Aft e r a l l t h is is a very em ail fa c t , ' ' y';,: q I am n ot s a yin g wh eth er yc>u sh ou ld o r sh ould n ot h ave done so? In t h i s con n ect ion i t was n ot d on e, ; q Then you naKe a ge n er a l st a t em en t ; "s p e ct r o s co p ic exam in ation w it h p h otogr ap h ! r ecor d was employed on ever y o cca s io n for th e purpose o f d etection o f th e presence o f lea d ", is th a t a q u a n t it a t ive t e s t ? -- Within s e r t a in lim it s i t is both q u a n t it a t ive and q u a lit a t iv e , dtJiaMoC . q You do n o tA.b a e i^ e n t ir e ly on t h e s p e ct r o s co p ic exam in ation ? -- I d id n o t 'exa m in e'a t a l l , i sim p ly examined t h e r e p o r t s o f t h e d o ct o r s who examined them, .. ., . Q Did t h o se p eop le who d id examine them depend e n t ir e ly on s p e ct r o s co p ic exam in ation ? ---- i am n ot p rep ar ed t o sa y. . .... r q You do n ot Know wh eth er t h e y go t t h e lea d ou t and weigh ed it ? .\ ---- I do n ot Know, I Should th in K n o t , b ecau se su ch a p o in t was made t h a t t h e r e was such a m in u te q u a n t it y. Q There wer e some o t h e r p eop le who made t h e s e t e s t s and you tK" -S u t i l i s e d t h e r e s u lt s , fo r what t h e y wer e worth ? ---- yes, kv: q Then a n ot h er exp er im en t you made was t o examine some p ie ce s c f Hr o o p la n s 4 t h e o v e r a lls o f t h e s e s e n t -- Ye s , . ?rfe Q Did you fo r com p arative pu rposes examine p ie ce s o f t h e o v e r a lls o f o t h e r sen wor kin g in o t h e r g a r a g e s ? ---- Ho, Q so t h e r e a ga in you yo u r s e lf have n ot got t h e b a s is o f com parison ? -- These fa c t s sim p ly Con firm t h e p r esen ce o f lead , q Q u it e . Then you make t h e statem en t t h a t t h e lau n d r y t o wh ich garm en ts so st a in e d a r e s e n t sh ould o r d in a r ily toe n o t ifie d o f t h e r is k s o f h a n d lin g su ch m a t e r ia l, more p a r t ic u la r ly toy la u n d r e s s e s . Thy do you say t h a t ? > fey . ---- I t h in k t h a t la u n d r esses h an d lin g garm ents o f workers in lead sh ou ld be n o t ifie d o f i t toy r ea son o f t h e p a r t ic u la r s u s c e p t ib ilit y o f women -- h a n d lin g le a d , 0 Do you happen t o knew wh eth er la u n d r ie s a r e n o t ifie d when t h e o v e r a lls o f lea d wor ker s a r e sen t t o t h e m ? ---- i/ io n ot know, tout I know t h a t in t h e n or t h o f England when t h ey o b t a in garm en ts frojrn t h e lead worker s th e p eop le a r e warned t h a t t h e y come from le a d w o r k e r s, V- Q What s o r t o f lea d wor ker s? - -- They may oe w h it e l e a d -- o r d in a r y le a d . There a r e q u it e a number o f in s t a n c e s , That kin d o r su ie a p p lie s to a l l la u n d r ies b ein g n o t ifie d . Q DO you s e r io u s ly su ggest t h a t t h e s e p a r t ic u la r o v e r a lls t h a t ' we a r e con cern ed w it h a r e so la d en w it h lea d t h a t i t i s dangerous t o send them t o th e lau n d ry? -- I do, Q You s e r io u s ly make t h a t s t a t e m e n t ? ---- I t h in k s o . P eop le. ;.,,. '- , ,- . *'i h a b it u a lly h a n d lin g a garm ent li k e t h a t I t h in k ou gh t t o be ;- wa r n ed . o v e r a lls o f o ilie r men warKin g in o t h e r g a r a g e s ? ---- h o , q so t h e r e a ga in you yo u r s e lf have n ot got t h e b a s is o f v . - * .-'v com parison ? -- These fa c t s sim p ly Con firm t h e p r esen ce o f lead , v q Q u it e , Then you make t h e sta tem en t t h a t t h e la u n d r y t o ; wh ich garm en ts so st a in ed a r e sen t should o r d in a r ily be n o t ifie d o f t h e r is x s o f h a n d lin g su ch m a t e r ia l, more p a r t ic u la r ly by la u n d r e s s e s , Thy do you say t h a t ? --- I t h in x t h a t la u n d r esses h an d lin g garm ents o f workers in lead should be n o t ifie d o f i t by reason o f th e p a r t icu la r s u s c e p t ib ilit y o f women -- h a n d lin g le a d , Q Do you happen t o Kne whether la u n d r ie s a r e n o t ifie d when t h e o v e r a lls o f lea d wor xer s a r e sen t t o them? ---- # lo n ot Know, out l Know t h a t in t h e n or t h o f sn glan d when t h ey ob tain garm ents fr o ja th e lead worxers th e p eop le ar e warned t h a t t h e y come from lea d w o r xe r s, Q Th at sc-rt o f lea d w o rvx e r s ? ---- They may oe w h it e lea d -- cr d in arsr le a d . There a r e q u it e a number o f in s t a n ce s . That Kind o f s u ie a p p lie s t o a l l la u n d r ie s b ein g n o t ifie d , Q DO you s e r io u s ly su ggest t h a t t h e s e p a r t ic u la r o v e r a lls t h a t '*X` we a r e con cern ed w it h `a r e so la d en w it h lea d t h a t i t i s dangerous t o send them ;to th e lau n d ry? -- I do. Q You s e r io u s ly maxe t h a t st a t em en t ? ---- I t h in x s o , p eop le ' h a b it u a lly h an dlin g a.garm ent lix e th a t I th in x ought t o be warned, - v Q Then you made an exp er im en t abou t t h e e va p o r a t io n o f lea d w it h a view t o s e e in g wh eth er any o f i t was absorbed ? ---- Hot so much t h a t a s t o s e e in g t h e p o s s i b ilit y o f rem ovin g i t , , q You put a c e r t a in amount o f e t h yl p e t r o l on t h e sxm ? .VN on my own s xin , and I t r ie d t o rub i t o f f w it h a lin e, swab soaxed in Kerosen e, -p?sr V 5, - r' H Vy\ V` [\ Dr co plan e , ,;VV '- `-S-. / - ` M-Ml>-:*,-.'. Then you est im a t ed t h e amount o f lea d in t i ll s lin e n swabt - ---- Ye s . Q. m en by c a lc u la t io n you show t h a t whan was n ot removed by t h eI lin e n s * swab was ab sor bed by t h e sKin ? -- Ho, A ll I say i s Vi* *- t n a t i t was n ot rem oved. * {\ Q You say t h e sKln o f t h e arm had absor bed .5 4 m illigr a m s ? m ---- The sKin had absorbed i t . q You do n ot say i t was m er ely n et removed but you sa y t h e sKin had absor bed i t . That i s on page 2 . You do n ot say i#t was -V# aosoroed bu t t h a t i t was n ot r em oved ?---- Ye s . , q Are you a cq u a in t ed w it h t h is exp er im en t t h a t was ca r r ie d ou t t Lr Ke h o e ? ---- The o n ly experim en ts t h a t X Know o f a r e t h e s e V exp er im en ts qu oted in t h e gr een booK -- i f I may c a l l i t t h e gr een booK. I t i s con firm ed by t h e fa c t s in r ega r d t o t h e gu in ea p igs - - i t i s on page aeo. There i s a t a b le . Are you a cq u a in t ed w it h an exp er im en t toy Dr I(Ji* 1 Ke Kept a monxey fo r t h r e e ye a r s and on t h e sKin o f t h e ^ ocaZtcT^ p et r o l monKey 720 xa& o f lead / was p la ced d u r in g t h e t h r e e ye a r s . 'V Two cu oio ce n t im e t r e s o f e t h yl p e t r o l -- a ft e r t h a t t h i s A p a r t ic u la r ncnKey was K ille d and o n ly a t r a c e o f lea d was found in t h e m on Key-- no more t h a n was foun d in a co n t r o l th)} anlrna:!? -- Th at may b e so , . I t may be t h a t t h e monKey : ' ' . in - ` \ d id n ot . a b sor b it * on t h e o t h e r hand,/ a ver y la r g e number o f exp er im en ts in wh ich t h e m a t e r ia l was on ly absor bed ay t h e SKin it # a s found in t h e fo e t u s r eco ver ed from t h e a n im a l. That was con firm ed by F lin n . He p a in t ed t h e sKin o f some go a t s , 'and n ot on ly was t h e m a t e r ia l absoroed but t h e Q Then uy caLcu ia t lo n you show t h a t wnat was n ot removed oy t h e lin e n s * swab was ab sor bed by t h e sk in ? -- Ko. AU I aay thvfc i t was n o t rem oved. Q You say t h e s k in o f t h e aria had ab sor b ed ,6 4 m illigr a m s ? v'rfSQ'* ---- The sk in had absorbed i t . if Q You do n ot say i t was m erely n ot removed but you sa y t h e s k in :'| ;$ had absor bed i t . That i s on page a . You do n ot say i t was . qf si aosorbed bu t t h a t i t was n ot r em o ved ?---- Ye s , , q, Are you a cq u a in t ed w it h t h is exp er im en t t h a t was ca r r ie d ou t by. Dr Ke h o e ? ---- The o n ly experim en ts t h a t I know o f a r e t h e s e exp er im en ts qu oted in t h e gr een book -- i f I may c a l l i t t h e ^ . ''.V'* V- gr een book. I t i s con firm ed by t h e fa c t s in r ega r d t o t h e t gu in ea p igs -- i t i s on page seo. There i s a t a b le . 0 Ar e you a cq u a in t ed w it h an exp er im en t by Dr iCeJtae* Ke kep t a monkey fo r t h r e e ye a r s and on t h e s k in o f t h e cvfajfaifdMr** p etr ol. monkey 720^ s o r iead/ was p la ced d u r in g t h e t h r e e ye a r s . Two cu b ic ce n t im e t r e s o f e t h yl p e t r o l -- a ft e r t h a t t h is p a r t ic u la r monkey was k i lle d and o n ly a t r a ce o f lea d was found in t h e monkey -- no more t h a n was found in a co n t r o l a n im a l? -- That may be s c . I t may be t h a t t h e monkey d id n o t .a b s o r b i t . On t h e o t h e r hand a ver y la r ge number o f ' 4. .. ' -, , ' ' ' exp er im en ts in wh ich t h e m a t e r ia l was on ly absorbed by t h e kin it w a s found in t h foet u s" r e co ve r e d from t h e a n im a l. That was con firm ed by P lin n , He p a in t ed t h e s k in o f some .q'^ fipoats, .'.and ' n o i' cih iy.was, t h e .m a t e r ia l absorbed bu t t h e p r egn an t an lr aai a b o r t ed and t h e lea d was foyn d in t h e fo e t u s sv -sf^ji showing t h a t i t can be absorbed by t h e s k in . KB 0018270 -v * v * * S r Co plana q, m r egar d t o t h e aomswhat a la r m in g a t a t ement t h a t t h e wa ter su p p lies o f Groat B r it a in m ight be endangered i f t h is m a t e r ia l wer e a llo w e d . Have you made an y c a lc u la t io n a s *' to th e amount t h a t would be n e ce s s a r y to m ice t h a t p o ssib le ? ---- I do n ot uee th e .remarXa t o wh ich you r e fe r . -" $ "The d a n ger o f p o llu t io n o f un dergroun d w a t e r su p p lied r<^ aa m igh t a r is e when o i l from th e en gin e aump o f a c a r in which e t h yl p etxu l haa been used aa motor fu e l ia poured on t h e groun d in p r oxim it y to a sh a llo w w e l l 8? ---- Ye a , Vj There ia a la o a a p e c ific atatem en t in r ega r d to undergroun d w a ter su p p liea p a r t ic u la r ly sh a llow w e lls , where th er e may be cir cu m st a n ces where t h e r e would be d an ger , q, Then you g ive u s a copy o f a l e t t e r from S r ? lin n wh ich reach ed you in March o f t h ia ye a r , abou t le a d p oison in g in g e n e r a l, but n ot ab ou t e t h y l p e t r o l? ---- That ia showing th e e ffe c t o f a ve^ y sm all doaa. Q I t h in x you d id a c e r t a in amount o f wo me fo r t h e S a i l y M a il? ---- Ye a . ,, ... , :5# i8 q, A a e r ie s o f a r t i c le s was p u b lish ed in t h e S a i l y M a il on you r . . " ' ,r c>.` - ' ' worx? **-- That i a a o.,4 That was on m a t e r ia l fu r n is h e d by th e; Research Asooela tion o f B r it is h Motor M an u factu r er s, and . a s s is t e d by th e Committee on S c i e n t i fi c and in d u s t r ia l -'^0 Research. . ''' Q So you co n s id e r a a a s c i e n t i f i c man t h a t th e amount o f woric t h a t you y o u r s e lf have done on t h ia s u b je ct ju s t i fi e d th e somewhat a la r m is t a r t i c l e s t h a t you h ave p u b lis h e d ? ---- I t h ii I s a y in t h ia r e p o r t t h a t wh a tever I foun d waa e x a c t ly wh at was foun d in Am er ica. There i s no d iffe r e n c e in t h e fin d in g s t o t h e amount t h a t would be n e ce s s a r y t o mao:a t h a t p o ssib le? - -- I do n ot sea th e rem arks to which you r e fe r . '' $ "The d an ger o f p o llu t io n o f un dergroun d w a t e r su p p lied a s m igh t a r ia s when o i l from tile en gin e aump o f a o a r in - wh ich e t h yl p etxu l has been used as motor fu e l i s poured i.- on t h e groun d in p r oxim it y to a sh a llo w w e ll"? ---- Ye s . There i s a la o a a p a c ific sta tem en t in r ega r d to u n d er gr ou n d ! w a ter su p p lie s p a r t ic u la r ly sh a llow w a lls , where t h er e may : be cir cu m st a n ces where t h e r e would be dan ger* ^ q Then you g iv e u s a copy o f a l e t t e r from Dr yiin n wh ich *:<i r each ed you in March o f t h ia ye a r , a b ou t le a d p oison in g in } &- g e n e r a l, but n ot a b ou t e t h y l p e t r o l ? ---- That i s showin g . th e e ffe c t o f a ver y sm all doaa. q I t h in x you d id a c e r t a in amount o f worx f o r t h e D a ily Mail?! ---- Ye s . V- q A s e r ie s o f a r t ic le s was p u blish ed in t h e D a ily M a il on you r worK? -- - That i s u o. That was on m a t e r ia l fu r n is h e d by t h e H Research Asso cia t io n o f B r it is h Motor M an u factu r er s, and a s s is t e d by t h e Committee on S c i e n t i fi c and I n d u s t r ia l R esea r ch . - q Do you co n s id e r a s a s c i e n t i f i c man t h a t th e amount o f woric t h a t you y o u r s e lf have d on e.on t h ia s u b je c t j u s t i fi e d th e ' somewhat a la m i a t a r t i c l e s t h a t you heare p u b lish ed ? ---- I t h l I s a y in t h is r e p o r t t h a t wh a tever z foun d was e x a c t ly wh at was foun d in Am er ica. There i s no d iffe r e n c e in t h e fin d in g s from what h ave been a lr e a d y foun d in t h e Un ited S t a t e s .in I h ave a s s o cia t e d m ys e lf w it h a v e r y la r g e member o f p eop le in Am er ica who co n s id e r t h a t t h e u n ive r s a l u se th e u n lim it.e d u se- o....f - e. t h y l .p e t r o l c a r r ie s w it h it f a number o f ., ; d a n ger s. q That d oes n ot q u it e an swer my q u e s t io n , wh ich was wh eth er you Dr Copian e co n s id e r t h a t th e amount o f worx t h a t you have done and 'r* '. ' :Vv.-U-- t h e r e s u lt s t h a t you o b t a in ed y o u r s e lf j u s t i f y th e somewhat'^ a la r m is t a r t i c l e s . You y o u r s e lf h ave dene v e r y l i t t l e ? W ell, I s a y t h a t what I h ave done# a s fa r a s I h ave gon e; i s e x a ct ly in accor d w ith th e r e s u lt s t h a t have been 'J produced by t h e Am erican a: a s a p p ea r s in t h is gr e en boo x . ^ Gran ting th a t what th ey say ia t r u e . "'S Q You a gr ee t h a t t h e s e a r t i c l e s em ph asise wh at a v e r y s e r io u s J | t h in g le a d p oison in g i s , and r a t h e r by im p lic a t io n su gge s t M`fv* t h a t i f the use o f e t h yl p e t r o l were allowed in t h is coun try. t h o s e bad r e s u lt s would f o l l o w ? ---- - I th izn c 2 h ave 3a id J 1 * v. i f a la r g e number o f ca r s u se i t . 2 mean i t i s a lm ost t h e '-* ' 'i.t d ir e c t cau se o f a la r g e number o f ca r s U3in g t h is m a t e r ia l. i A few ca r s o f co u r se would amount to n ot h in g a t a l l . i f a la r ge number o f ca r s were p laced in a p a r t ic u la r sp ot th e d an ger would be in cr e a se d . 2 do n ot t h in * 2 cou ld h ave sa id i t more em p h a tica lly. / - Do you th in ic i t was r ig h t t o is s u e t h o s e a r t i c l e s a ft e r t h e Government had d ecid ed t o s e t up a Com m ittee t o en q u ir e wh eth er t h e u se o f t h is m a t e r ia l was d an gerous o r n ot? . -- -- A..to t h a t 2 w o u ld iliice to e xp la in : on J an u ar y 16t h c I was u n d er ta xin g w it h th e D a ily M a il to a c t in a s s o cia t io n w it h the Research As s o cia t io n in a c e r t a in number o f m attertr^ and to provide a w r it t e n op in ion on th e m a t e r ia ls co lle ct e d by them. That was in J a n u a r y, lo n g b e fo r e an y q u e st io n came up o r a n yth in g a t a l l was proposed by th e Governm en t.' As a m a t t e r o f fa c t a t t h a t , tim e t h e Government wer e opposed, . . ..I u n d er s tan d , t o a n y Government e n q u ir y. w - ;. _ . . . . . ,,!*, . - j^ / 6 ' i*i ,y? -* * . . . . .. . / ---- W e ll, I s a y t h a t what I have d o n e , a s f a r a s I h ave gone)! ia e xa ct ly in acoord w ith the r e s u lt s t h a t have been v produced by t h e Am erican s: a s a p p ea r s in t h is gr e en booic* . -'M Gran ting th a t what th ey say ia t r u e . -Si 'vSS Q You a gr ee t h a t t h e s e a r t i c l e s em ph asise what a v e r y s e r io u s * < ; th in g lead poison in g ia , and r a th er by im p lica tio n su ggest r> '1 t h a t i f th e use o f e t h yl p e t r o l were allowed in t h is cou n try'll th ose bad r e s u lt s would follow? -- * I t h in * I have said i f a la r g e number o f ca r s u se i t . Z mean i t i s alm ost t h e d ir e c t cause o f a la r g e number o f oa r s u s in g t h is m a ter ial*^ / A few ca r e o f co u r se would amount to n ot h in g a t a l l . i f a la r ge number o f ca r s were p la ced in a p a r t ic u la r sp ot t h e d an ger would be in cr ea sed ; i t more e m p h a t ica lly. I do no t t h in * I cou ld h ave sa id V '\ j q Bo you t h in * i t was r ig h t t o is s u e t h o se a r t i c l e s a ft e r t h e ^ Government had d ecid ed t o s e t up a Com mittee t o en q u ir e wh eth er t h e u se o f t h i1s . m a t e r ia l was d an ger ou s o r n ot? r . ---- As to t h a t I would l i x e to e xp la in : on J a n u a r y 16th I was u n d er t a xin g w it h t h e D a ily M a il to a c t in a s s o c ia t io n w it h t h e Resear ch As-eocia tion in a c e r t a in number o f m atter bys, and to provide a w r it t e n op in ion on th e m a t er ia ls co lle ct e d by them. Shat was in J an u ar y, lon g b efor e an y q u est ion came up o r a n yth in g a t a l l was proposed by t h e Governm en t. - ; As a m a t t er o f fa c t a t ^ t h a t tim e t h e Government wer e opposed, '' , .' '; -t. .v ,.*<v ; , / - . . . /,: '' I u n d er st a n d , t o an y Government en qu iry ' ' . ' - ./- W. ' ' v - J >$88 q Oh, I do n ot d ou bt that' At an y r a t e you sa y t h a t when yo u r -V. >i' \ ' co n t r a ct w it h t h e D a ily K a il was made th er e was no d e cis io n to have an en q u ir y? - -- That i s so . q And b efo r e those a r t i c le s woe is s u e d i t had been d ecid e^ to h ave an en q u ir y? -- - At t h e tim e t h e Goverm um t d ecid ed to^ hiave 'a. KK 0018274 9 .. Dr Ooplana, an e n q u iiy t h e worx was p r a c t ic a lly a l l done anil i t was beyond my power, I was u n d er a le g a l o b lig a t io n t o hand th e m aterial over to th e D a ily M all, Q You wer e n o t r e s p o n s ib le fo r t h e p u b lis h in g o f t h e a r t ic le s ? . Not th e s lig h t e s t . q I do n ot m ow%hat i n t e r e s t th e D a ily M a il h as in i t , bu t : i f t h e y were r e a lly a n xio u s t o g e t q u it e to t h e bottom o f fib t h i s in a s c i e n t i f i c way on e would h ave th ou gh t t h a t some 4% o f t h i s Am erican woric -- th e Government r e p o r t , fo r in sta n ce'&! wh ich was in r a t h e r an o p p o sit e d ir e c t io n to you r a r t ic le s ^ ; ! w.ou ld have been m en tion e d by them . But t h a t ia n ot m en ti.o.n e'dAs a t a l l , i a i t ? ---- Oh, t h e Am erican Government R ep or t . X do ~ n ot q u it e a cce p t t h a t , The Am erican Rep or t ap p eared in 1926 and a a xed fo r an a p p r o p r ia t io n from Con gr ess t o co n t in u e t h e worh. . Q But a f t e r a ve r y exh a u st ive in v e s t ig a t io n th e Government Com mittee d id s a y t h a t t h e y wer e u n ab le t o fin d a n y d e fin it e ca s e s o f le a d p oison in g i n wh ich t h e y found t h e fu<iaJ- had . been u sed fo r from two t o t h r e e ye a r s , and a cco r d in g ly in t h e view o f t h a t Government Com mittee in Araerioa t h e r e was no good ground fo r p r o h ib it in g th e u se o f e t h y l r e s id u e a s a m otor fu e l. That was n ot s t a t e d i n th e D a ily M a il a r t i c l e s . X mean our B r i t i s h p u b lic would feerhapa h ave been more co m fo r t a b le i f t h ey had been t o ld t h a t ? ---- I t h in K t h a t Report i s more r ece n t. X th in x th e r e s u lt o f what was d on e was p u b lish ed in t h e M ed ica l O ffic e r , As a m a t t er o f 4 fa c t X p u blish ed th e whole o f t h a t a r t ic le in the Medical V O ffic e r . X w i l l g iv e t h e Committee t h s d a t e s when I a c t u a lly \ r publish ed in th e Medioal J ou rn als b e the D a ily M ail ->cSb V-'.'.Vi Q You w e re n e t r e s p o n s ib le f o r th e p u b lis h in g o f th e a r t i c l e ? ----Not th e a lig h t e s t . Q, i do n ot icnow%hat in t e r e s t the D a ily K a il h as in i t , but ,'fj i f th ey were r e a lly an xiou s to ge t q u ite to th e bottom o f !|g t h is in a s c i e n t i f i c way one would h ave t h ou gh t t h a t some | | o f t h is Am erican wor* -- th e Government r e p o r t , fo r in st a n ca f! wh ich was in r a t h e r an o p p o s it e d ir e c t io n to yo u r a r t i c l e s , 'VI wou ld have been m en tion ed by them . But t h a t ia n ot mentioned a t a l l , ia i t ? ---- Oh, t h e Am erican Government R ep or t , I do,i| M S.S5 n ot q u it e a cce p t t h a t . The Am erican Rep or t ap p ear ed in 192# i and a sxed fo r an a p p r o p r ia t io n from Con gr ess t o co n t in u e t h ^ ' . . `rJiS i* worjc, .. . .. v'/ft -h Q But a f t e r a ve r y exh a u st ive in v e s t ig a t io n t h e Government Committee d id sa y t h a t t h e y wer e u rn 'ole to fin d an y d e fin it e ca s e s o f le a d p oison in g in wh ich t h e y found t h e fu eH h a d , . been u sed fo r from two t o t h r e e ye a r s , and a cco r d in g ly in t h e view o f t h a t Government Coim aittee in Am erica t h e r e was no good ground fo r p r o h ib it in g th e u se o f e t h yl r es id u e ae a m otor fu e l. That was n ot s t a t e d in th e D a ily M a il a r t i c le s , I mean our B r it is h p u b lic would p er h ap s have been more co m fo r t a b le i f th ey had been t o ld t h a t ? ---- I thinJC t h a t Report ie more r e ce n t , x t h in * th e r e s u lt o f what waa.v'a don e was p u b lish ed in t h e M ed ica l O ffic e r , As a m a t t er o f fa c t I p u blish ed th e whole o f t h a t a r t ic le in th e Medical O ffic e r . X w i l l giveJ fch e Committee th e d a t e s when I a ct u a lly- publish ed in th e Medical J ou rn als before the D a ily M ail approached me, and X w i l l give you a lo n g ver b a t im r ep o r t o f t h e Sugeon G e n e r a l's r e p o r t , w it h a ge n e r a l r e s e r va t io n in which he s t a t e d t h a t th e evid en ce was su ch t h a t t h e r e was a c e r t a in d an ger in ga r a ge s and t h a t i t was n e ce s s a r y to con tin ue the in ve st iga t io n . HE 0018g 76 10 2>r Cop lan s. q Of cou r se t h e r e I s dan ger In ga r a ge s from carbon monoxide? -- That i s one d an ger ; b u t t h a t may h e t a ken away b y or d in ary means h u t th e danger with le a d rem ain s. The Su r geon -Gen er al d id n ot d ecid e t h e m a tt e r t h e r e and th en : he asked to he allowed to con tin u e th e r esea r ch , - . and t h e u n it ed S t a t e s Government h ave n ot give n him t h e 4?ri ' ,rS*!vN a p p r o p r ia t io n t h a t was asked fo r . q But t h e r e i s a ce r t a in amount o f work t h a t i s b e in g don e? bsjfc - -- Tee. 5 ' 0 I t i s a q u e st io n o f what va lu e ie t o he a t t a ch e d t o i t ? -- Qu ite so; h u t you r open in g remark was t h a t I d id n ot p u b lish th e Surgeon -Gen eral's r ep o r t . I sa y t h a t I d id p u b lish i t in the ir eaicai J ou rn al.. q I o n ly sa y t h a t in The D a ily M a il a r t i c l e s , wh ich r ea ch a ver y la r ge p u b lic, you d id n ot r e fe r t o th e in ve s t ig a t io n s t h a t had been made b y t h e Am erican Govern m en t. -- i f i had done s o , i t would h ave been t h e same t h in g a s had a lr e a d y been done b efo r e: in regard t o th e n e ce s s it y r o r fu r t h e r observation . r-v q q u it e . Ar e you a cq u a in t ed w it h t h is r e p o r t wh ich came ou t on la r c h 30 th 1928? t h is r e p o r t o f Am erican Governm ent? -- Mo, I h ave n ot seen t h a t . I had p r e t t y w e ll com p leted my r ep o r t b e fo r e t h a t r e p o r t was p u b lis h e d , q I was on ly go in g t o draw yo u r a t t e n t io n t o t h e fa c t t h a t t h e y had made e la b o r a t e exam in ation o f th e atm osphere in ver y many crowded p la ce s - in p r e t t y crowded Am erican c i t i e s . ^ The im p or tan t t h in g I want t o em p h asise i s t h i s : t h a t you d id n ot do work so a s t o co n t r o l you r r e s u lt s , t h a t i s t o sa y, W*Hk44*dJT f WV4I Wilt? WlWl XVttU Xi1 # The 3u r geon -0 e n e r a l d id n ot d e cid e t h e m a t t e r t h e r e and * then : he ashed to he allowed to con tin u e th e r esea r ch , \ -r. S and t h e Un ited S t a t e s Government h ave not give n him t h e a p p r o p r ia t io n t h a t was ash ed f o r . r.yIS iSgl Q Bu t t h e r e I s a c e r t a in amount o f worh t h a t I s b e in g done? 11 - -- Ye s . sil fit I t i s a q u e s t io n o f what va lu e i s t o h e a t t a ch e d t o i t ? -- Qu ite s o j h u t you r open in g remark was t h a t i d id n ot 1 p u b lish th e 3u r geon -oen er ai*s r e p o r t . I sa y t h a t I d id p u blish I t in the ir ed ical J ou rn al. Q I o n ly sa y t h a t in The 23a i l y K a il a r t i c l e s , wh ich r ea ch a ver y la r ge p u b lic, you d id n ot r e fe r to th e in ve s t iga t io n s -Yjf 1 m t h a t had been made b y t h e Am erican Go ver n m en t .---- i f i had done s o , i t would h a v e : been t h e same t h in g a s had a lr e a d y been done b e fo r e : in regard t o th e n e ce s s it y fo r r u r t h e r observation . Q Q u it e . Are you a cq u a in t ed w it h t h is r e p o r t wh ich came ou t on March 30 th 1923: t h is r e p o r t o f t h e Am erican Government? -- h o , I have n ot seen t h a t . 1 had p r e t t y w e ll com pleted my r ep or t b e fo r e t h a t r e p o r t was p u b lish ed * 0 I was on ly go in g t o draw yo u r a t t e n t io n t o t h e fa c t t h a t t h e y had made e la b o r a t e exam in ation o f th e atm osphere in ve r y many crowded p la ce s - in p r e t t y crowded Am erican c i t i e s . The im p or tan t t h in g t wan t t o em ph asise i s t h is : t h a t you d id n ot do work so a s t o co n t r o l you r r e s u lt s , t h a t i s t o s a y ,^ you exam in ed t h e se two m ech an ics who wer e wor kin g in a ga r a ge where e t h y l- g a s o lin e was b e in g u sed , and you d id n ot exam ine ', oorreqam din g men in ga r a ge s where e t h y l- p e t r o l was n ot b ein g:' used? so t h a t you had no b a s is o f com parison between t h o s e .jjfe ^ two cla s s e s ? - -- That i s p e r fe c t ly co r r e ct ; on th e o t h e r hand, t h is was a p r iva t e a f f a i r and un dertaken b y a n ewspaper. 11..f t X2 Dr oopiftR The amount o f money t h a t h as been sp en t on t h is I s p er h ap s n ot on e-th ou san d th o f what h as been sp en t b y t h e in t e r e s t e d ': p a r t ie s In Am er ica, and i t i s n ot p o s s ib le f o r an in d ivid u a l li k e m ys e lf, r e c e iv in g money wh ich i s n ot enough t o pay f o r .'v,v t h e i n i t i a l ch a r gee o f a la b o r a t o r y# X am bound t o sa y th a t ;^ because you a r e askin g fo r an im p ossible th in g* , * q I am n ot a s k in g you t o do a n yt h in g! X o n ly want t o see what;' you d id d o. I am n ot in an y sen se s a yin g what you ou gh t to,'"? 3 h ave don a. -- Th is i s t h e s o r t o f work t h a t x su gges t ou gh t t o be ca r r ie d ou t b y t h e Com m ittee. - q you t h in k you gave th e D a ily Mail ve r y good va lu e f o r t h e / | | money t h e y p a id you ? --- I t h in k X can c e r t a in ly s a y t h a t . \ 3i r CHAHLS3 m a r t i n ; Dr Coplane I do n ot wish t o in t r u d e upon ^ you r p r iva t e m a t t e r s , b u t d id you go t o th e Un ited 3 t a t e s )?$ 'a: on p u rpose t o s t u d f t h is h a za r d o f e t h y l- p e t r o l? .-- No. . # q That was p u r e ly in c id e n t a l? -- Th at was p u r e ly in c id e n t a l; s I was t h e r e on c e r t a in m a t t e r s in co n n ect io n w it h m ys e lf, and r t h is m a t t e r was ve r y much In t h e a i r a t t h e t im e, q That i s what X th ou gh t,; would you tu r n t o yo u r in t r o d u ct io n on p age 1 ? There i s a sen t en ce t h e r e t o b e g in w it h wh ich I am q u it e in ca p a b le o f com prehen din g, a s t o why you wr ote i t . you s a y; *lh e op p or tu n itywa s a ffo r d e d me o f a p p r e cia t in g some o f t h e m ain fa c t o r s which h ave o b fu s ca t e d t h e is s u e t o whether th e s a le o r u se o f lead ed p e t r o l should be p er m it t e d a s a m otor fu el.** co u ld you t e l l t h e Com m ittee ; why you vr o t t h a t san tan c# ? Toe, s i r * In Hew YorK City ** where th e s a le i s n ot p er m itted , th e evid en ce i s t h a t t h er e 'were v e r y few p eop le who had le a d in t h e ir system s in a n on oa l -vj p a r t ie s in Am er ica, an d i t i s n ot p o s s ib le f o r an in d ivid u a l li k e m ys e lf, r e c e iv in g money wh ich i s n ot enough t o pay f o r "** i t h e i n i t i a l ch a r ges o f a la b o r a t o r y* I am hound t o sa y t h a t heoause you a r e askin g fo r an im p ossible th in g. iVA' ^ ' C-*$SL| q I am n ot a sk in g you t o do a n yt h in g; I o n ly want t o see what m you d id do* X am n ot in any sen se s a yin g what you ough t t o 'i-Hi:i have don e. --- Th is i s th e s o r t o f work t h a t I su ggest ough t t o he ca r r ie d ou t h y t h e Com m ittee. 'r>it- q You t h in k you gave The D a ily M ail ve r y good va lu e f o r t h e ai money t h e y p a id you ? I t h in k X can c e r t a in ly sa y t h a t * S ii * `Je f S ir CHARLES MARTI? Dr Cop ia n e, I do n o t wish t o in t r u d e upon ,\K% yo u r p r i v a t e m a t t e r s , h u t d id you go t o t h e Un it'ed 3t a t e s on pu rpose t o st u d y t h is h a za r d o f e t h y l- p e t r o l? -- Ho. >> '\l/1vrSt; -'VjWSH 0, That was p u r e ly in c id e n t a l? -- Th at was p u r e ly in c id e n t a l; ! ,| I was t h e r e on c e r t a in m a t t er s in con n ect ion wit h m ys e lf, a n d 1;,*, t h is m a t t e r was ve r y much in t h e a i r a t t h e t im e. : Q That i s what x th ou gh t, would you t u r n t o yo u r in t r o d u ct io n on page 1 ? There 1 a ;s e n t e n ce t h e r e t o b e gin w it h wh ich I am q u it e in ca p a b le o f com prehen din g, a s t o why you wrote i t . You sa yi The o p p o r t u n it y was a ffo r d e d me o f a p p r e cia t in g some o f t h e m ain fa c t o r s which h ave o b fu sca t e d t h e is s u e a s / to whether the s a le o r use o f lead ed p e t r o l should be ,, p er m it t ed as a m otor fu e l. Could you t e l l t h e com m ittee wisr.you wr ote t h a t sen ten ce? -- - Ye s , s i r . In Hew Yor k C it y , where th e s a le i s n ot p er m itted , th e evid en ce i s t h a t t h e r e . were ye r y few p eop le who had le a d in t h e ir system s in a norm al^ way.": j i t h as been s a id t h a t o u t s id e Hew York a ve r y la r g e - number o f p eop le h ave le a d in t h e ir system s; and t h a t was t h e J p o in t , a s t o how many p eo p le n or m a lly h ave le a d in t h e ir Ai * s ys t e m s *;Xn Hew Yor k i t was s a id t h a t n ot more t h a n t h r e e as to . ' or fo u r per c*1* ***<* i t , whereaq^people re pre s e n tin g those v; who ca r r y on work o u t e i^ jretf Yo r k , i t was s a id t h a t in 13 Dr Copian e c e r t a in ca ses 100 p e r cen t o f t h e p eo p le n ave i t m t h e ir syterns. Of co u r s e , w it h a backgroun d lik e t h a t , i t I s - Im p ossib le t o sa y wh eth er t h e w h o les a le d is t r ib u t io n o f ** p e t r o l h as b r ou gh t on t h is u n iv e r s a l d is t r ib u t io n or le a d or not* q You t h in k t h a t ob fu sca t ed t h e I s s u e a s t o wh eth er le a d e d p *r o l sh ou ld b e p er m it t ed a s a m otor fu e l? - That was t h k poin t* > q You t h in k you cou ld n ot d ecid e t h e q u e st io n th en a t a l l in t h ose cir cu m st a n ces, o r o n ly in r ega r d t o Hew Yor k? - Mg -- The Hew York p eop le sa y t h a t o n ly 3 p e r ce n t o f t h e ^ p eo p le h ave le a d in t h e ir syst em s; and t h e Hew York p eop le s a y: You h ave le a d o u t s id e Hew Yor k b eca u se you a r e u s in g If lead ed p e t r o l*. J q ' yo. u. m ean t o s a y t h a t you co u ld n ot d ecid e t h is p o in t a s t o ,\i|U wh eth er le a d e d p e t r o l was a p u b lic d a n ger o r n ot u n le s s yo u | | d id itv.-.in Hew Yor k? -- - I t h in k s o . ' ,^ q lh a t i s r ea lly you r op in ion ? >-- i t h in k s o , ye s * */ # '! CHAXHliAHj it igh t we a sk you wh eth er ca r s go in g in t o Hew York - h a ve go t t o.em p t y o u t ? ---- I t h in k i t h as been ve r y f u l l y s t a t e d by Mr Yr a n cla P owell in The Times o f Ap r il l l t h : A g r e a t p o in t was made o f t h e f a c t t h a t t h e Hear Yor k ' > `m u n icip a l a u t h o r it ie s do n ot t u r n ou t t h e p e t r o l con in g do noi from t h e ca r s lg o t o g in t o Hew Yo r k . I do n ot know why t n e y^ ' t u r n ou t t h e p e t r o l; i t i s n o t h in g t o do wit h me. q Ho, nos; 2 am p n ly a sk in g you wh eth er i t i s t h e fa o t t h a t , KV t h e y do n o t t u r n ou t t h e p e t r o l fr om th e ca r s ? ---- n o , t h e y O' , r. , ^ 0;o n o t .. i h a v e u n d e r lin e d h e r e t h e p a ssa ge f rem t h e l e t t e r \ Im possible t o say whether th e wh olesale d is t r ib u t io n of \' r& p e t r o l h as brou gh t on t h is u n ive r s a l d is t r ib u t io n o f le a d or not* q You t h in h t h a t o b fu sca t ed th e is s u e a s t o wh eth er le a d e d p &r ol sh ou ld b e p er m it t ed a s a m otor fu e l? That was t h e : poin t* q You t h in * you cou ld n ot d ecid e t h e q u e st io n th en a t a l l in t h ose cir cu m stan ces o r o n ly in r ega r d t o Hew YorK? /* -- The Hew York p eop le sa y t h a t o n ly 5 p e r ce n t o f t h e 5 ^ p eop le h ave le a d in t h e ir syst em s; and t h e Hew Yor k p eo p le >mJ rlS sa y: "You h ave le a d o u t s id e Hew YorK b eca u se you a r e u s in g leaded p e t r o l*. q You mean t o s a y t h a t you co u ld n o t d ecid e t ills p o in t a s t o wh eth er lea d ed p e t r o l was a p u b lic d an ger o r n o t u n le s s you d id i t in new Yor k? I thin h so. ' q That i s r eally you r op in ion ? -- I t h in h so y e s . CHAIUMAH: Might we a sh you wh eth er oa r s go in g in t o Hew YorK have got t o empty ou t? ---- I th in h i t h as been ve r y f u l l y s t a t e d by Mr F r a n cis P owell in The Times o f A p r il l l t h : A g r e a t p o in t was made o f t h e f a c t t h a t t h e Hew YorK m u n icipal a u t h o r it ie s do n ot tu r n ou t th e p e t r o l con in g do not from t h e ca r e go in g in t o Hew Yor K. I do n ot Know why t h e y ^ ., t u r n ou t th e p a t r o l; i t i s n o t h in g t o do w it h me. q h o n o: I am o n ly a sh in g you wh eth er i t i s t h e fa c t t h a t t h ey do n ot tu r n ou t t h e p e t r o l from th e ca r s? - -- Ho, t h e y do n o t . I h ave u n d e r lin e d h e r e t h e p a ssa ge from t h e l e t t e r * in The Tim es: *ln t h e C it y o f New YorK i t s s a le i s fo r b id d e n , bu t n ot it s u se, and thousands o f care u sin g I t d a ily pass th r ou gh t h e H olland t u n n el t o and from J er se y C it y with ou t co n d it io n s o r h in d r a n ce. The r ea son fo r t h e Hew YorK c i t y p r o h ib it io n i s n ot w a n foun ded and w i ll u n d ou bted ly b e fir copians rem oved.* t h a t I s t h e op in io n o f Mr F r a n cis P o w e ll, ch ain aan o f The An glo-Am erican o i l Company. I r e s p e c t fu lly su gges t t h a t I f Mr F r a n cis P owell r ea d s t h e r e p o r t o f Dr yiyn n o f The Colum bia U n ive r s it y, he w i l l s e e t h a t he has ca r r ied out ce r t a in experim en ts in regard to e t h y l p e t r o l* and i t w i l l t>e an an swer t o h is q u e s t io n . 3i r 0HARL23 MARTIN: You a r e e vid e n t ly o f t h e <vni*inv th e d isch a r ge in t o th e atm osphere o f exha ca r s u sin g e t h yl p e t r o l may be a s e r io u s crowded a r e a s , That i s a t t h e bottom o f page 9 o f yo u r i memorandum. Th at is yo u r v i e w ? ---- I thin ic so . '* Q, Th at i s wh at you s a y; t h a t i s you r b e l i e f , i s n ot i t ? ---- That i s so . T * Su p posin g we were t o t a k a f o r i l lu s t r a t i o n a b lo ck in P ic c a d illy , and su p p osin g I had t o rem ain t h e r e amongst th e oars fo r an hour and they were a ll u sin g e th yl p e t r o l, do you thinic t h a t I sh ould run a se r io u s r is k o f b ein g p oison ed w it h le a d ? ~ Do you sa y in one h our? Tee, in one hour* -- I should say ce r t a in ly n o t . I sh ou ld , - n ot put i t a s one h ou r , b u t 1 thinic i f you r d u ty kep t you t h e r e , on p o in t d u t y, we w i l l s a y, i t wou ld b e a d iffe r e n t m a t t e r . P i c c a d i lly , o f co u r s e , i s g e t t in g ve r y wide now - you m igh t ch oose a narrow s t r e e t . You h ave chosen one o f . -6 the wid est s t r e e t s in Great Br ita in . I ju s t ch ose P i c c a d illy b eca u se 1 en cou n ter more bion ics in P ic c a d illy th a n a n yw h e r e .---- I t h in k you a ls o get b locks in ver y sm all narrow s t r e e t s ou tsid e P ico a d illy. M B 0018283 S r Go plan a. q But do you t h in x t h a t I f I were t h e r e fo r an hour I sh ould be in an y dan ger o f g e t t in g lea d p o is o n in g ? ---- I t h in * th e wh ole r is x i s an in d u s t r ia l r is k * I t h in * i t means b ein g a lon g tim e un der exp osu r e, and i t i s p a r t ic u la r ly in t e n s ifie d in t h e ca se o f women and youn g ch ild r e n , 1 do riot t h in x you r i l l u s t r a t i o n h e lp s you v e r y much. q Th at i s r a t h e r a n a s t y t h in g t o s a y ? ---- W e ll, I sh ou ld n o t describe i t as a good i l lu s t r a t i o n or it a t a l l . You asxed ms t o t a xe yo u r ca s e , d id n ot you? , q Ye s. 2)o you th in X th en t h a t i t i s a p u b lic d an ger to t h e p o lio e fo r c e . Ho body e ls e rem ain s fo r an h ou r in a b lo cx where t h e r e a r e t h ese ca r s con t in u ou sly, a lth ou gh Of cou rse t h e p olicem en do t h a t ? -- W e ll, I do n ot Xnow. There s a y be people s e llin g t ilin gs. There m ight be p eop le rem aining ab ou t fo r c e r t a in r ea so n s. But ta xa t h e ca se o f sh dps c lo s e by: in a n arrow s t r e e t where t h e r e a r e b lo cxs : l o t s o f * ' ' ......... . 1 sh op xeep er a a r e t h e r e , and p eop le on t h e pavement -- an ybody, Why ju s t one p er son ? 2 suppose a p olicem an in p a r t icu la r . , ; on p oin t d u ty would g e t a c e r t a in amount o f i t . W q You th in X t h e y would n ot s u ffe r , f i r s t o f a l l , from carbon m onoxide p oison in g? ^ 2 t h in x t h e a ct u a l d is ch a r ge o f ga s and t h s d istu r b a n ce o f th e a ir would be s u ffic ie n t . < The iiAndency .r i o f e t h y l- p r t r o l i s t o s e t t le taore: ? ^ - - j .j th an t h e carbon monoxide and i t rem ain s n e a r e r t h e grou n d . ') q But as you Xeep a c e r t a in d ia t a n o e from t h e groun d would ,z2 -Ki n ot you be more l i x e l y t o g e t away frota i t ? ---- 2 sa y in . t h e ca se o f sm a ll p eop le who a r e n e a r e r t h e groun d you would g e t more o f i t , and t h e y are th e p a r t ic u la r people Ion s tim e un der exposu re, and I t i s p a r t ic u la r ly in t e n s ifie d in t h e ca se o f rumen and youn g ch ild r e n , I do h o t t h in s you r i l l u s t r a t i o n h e lp s you v e r y much, . Q That i s r a t h e r a n a s t y t h in g t o s a y ? ---- Well* I sh ou ld n o t d e s cr ib e i t a s a good i l lu s t r a t i o n o f i t ,;j a t a l l . You asked m t o t a k e yo u r ca s e , d id n ot you? q Ye s, Do you t h in k th en t h a t i t i s a p u b lic d an ger to t h e ' p o lice fo r c e , Nobody e ls e rem ain s fo r an h ou r in a b lo ck w'here t h e; r e a r' e t h e s e....c.a r s co n t in u o u' s ly, a,lt h o u gh _Of cou r s. ,e/-'B':: t h e polioem en do t h a t ? ---- W e ll, I do n ot know. Th ere may v be people s e llin g t h in gs . There m ight be p eop le rem aining \ abou t fo r c e r t a in r ea so n s. But ta ke t h e ca se o f shdps c lo s e by: in a n arrow s t r e e t where t h e r e a r e b lo ck s ; l o t s o f sh op keep er s a r e t h e r e , and p eop le on t h e pavement -- an ybody. Why ju s t one p er son ? I suppose a p olicem an in p a r t icu la r on p oin t d u ty would g e t a c e r t a in amount o f i t , q You t h in k t h e y would n ot s u ffe r , f i r s t o f a l l , from car bon monoxide p oison in g? ---- X t h in k t h e a ct u a l d is ch a r ge o f the ga s and t h s d istu r b a n ce o f th e a ir would be s u ffic ie n t . The ten d en cy o f e jb h yl- p r t r o l i s t o s e t t le m or e. than t h e carbon m onoxide and i t rem ain s n ea r e r th e gr ou n d , q But as you keep a c e r t a in d is t a n ce from t h e groun d would ' n ot you be more l i k e l y t o g e t away from i t ? --- X sa y in t h e ca se o f sm a ll p eop le who a r e n e a r e r t h e ground you would g e t more o f i t , and t h ey ar e th e p a r t ic u la r people I r e fe r t o . As a m a t t er o f fa c t you w i l l jflwt g e t t h e le a d a t the breath in g le v e l, q And so you w i l l in t h e ca se o f the car b on m onoxide? ---- The car bon monoxide w i l l be d is t u r b e d by th e o r d in a r y p assage , o f th e ca r . Might X su ggest t h a t in o rder to o b t a in a p e r fe c t ly s c ie n t ific fou r -sq u a r e answer, th e o n ly way to do id. Dr Co plan a t h is is by beatin g i t on a va r y la r ge aaale; carried out q u it e a p a r t from p r iva t e p eop le -- by a Committee o i' t h is s o r t whose p r ovin ce i t i s , to s t a r t w it h . You a r e aaicing ras to s e t t le q u e s t io n s wn ich can o n ly be s e t t le d in t h a t way. il Then you r o p in ion comes down to a mere g u e s s ? ----I do n o t t h in s so; 'out i f you '.-mat abou t t h e r e la t io n s h ip between th e r is e and f a l l o f lea d ana caroon m onoxide, i f you want a s c i e n t i f i c an swer you must be p r ep ar ed to go t o th e e xt e n t o f g e t t in g a s c i e n t i f i c an swer . I f you aax me aa an o r d in a r y p er son 3ff s^r Yea , le a d i s a h ea vy s t u ff; i t ten d s to d escen d , wh er eas car bon monoxide ga s ten d s to r i s e . Q, You h ave a b s o lu t e ly n ot th e h a z ie s t Id ea how much le a d t h e r e would be in su ch cir cu m s t a n ce s ? ---- We now how much carbon m onoxide t h e r e v/ ould be, from ? ro f aas o rHenderaon1 wont. 0, I am p e r fe c t ly fa m ilia r w it h P r o fe s s o r ;Henderson's worx? Th er efor e we m igh t su r m ise t h e amount o f lea d t h a t i s in cir cu la tion . q su p p osin g I came to th e co n clu s io n t h a t i f I b r ea th ed fo r an hour -- give n yo u r maximum le a d ou tp u t o f 90 m illigr a m s p er cu b ic m e t r e ----- - ? ---- That i s a li g h t p r o p o r t io n . Q, veil, c a l l i t 100 m illigr a m s , Taxe t h e maximum p o s s ib le . Of c o u rs e I w o u ld n o t be b r e a t h i n g pure e x h a u s t g a s . Sup po sin g wa d ilu te d i t in 1 0 0 ; you w ould agre e th a t th a t i s a v e r y sm a ll d ilu t io n in th e a i r ; 1 in 10 0 ? ----in ordex to b r in g ou r figu r e s down to th e Am erican fig u r e s I f ca lc u la t e d 1 in p#OQO. aur VjWua<* p c o vAn o e a s Ay* t o a w r s w x s a , zo u a r e e a s in g me t o s e t t l e q u e st io n s wh ich can o n ly be s e t t le d in th a t" way. Then yo u r o p in io n comes down t o a mere g u e s s ? ---- I do n ot t h in s so: but i f you a s s me, what abou t t h e r e la t io n s h ip %',2K between th e r is e and f a l l o f lea d and carbon m onoxide, i f m you want a s c i e n t i f i c an swer you must be p r ep ar ed t o go t o t h e e xt e n t o f g e t t in g a s c i e n t i f i c a n swer . I f you asS me a s an o r d in a r y p er son ST a^r Ye s , le a d i a a h ea vy s t u ff: i t ' ten d s t o d escen d , wh ereas oarbon monoxide ga s ten d s t o r i s e , ' : -A . ; q You h ave a b s o lu t e ly n ot t h e h a z ie s t id e a how mush le a d ''w t h e r e would be in su ch cir cu m st a n ces? - tre Snow how 1 much carbon monoxide t h e r e would b e, from pro fa sso'r Henderson* wo r s , Q I am p e r fe c t ly fa m ilia r w it h P r o fe s s o r JHendereon' wo r s? * Th er efo r e we m igh t su r m ise t h e amount o f lea d t h a t i s in cir cu la tion , q Supposin g I came to th e co n clu s io n t h a t i f I b r eath ed fo r an h ou r -- give n yo u r maximum le a d ou tp u t o f 90 m illigr a m s p er cu b ic m etre *-- -- ---- That i a a li g h t p r o p o r t io n , Q, W e ll, c a l l i t 10 0 in illigr a m a , Tase t h e maximum p o s s ib le , o f cou rse I would n ot be b r ea t h in g pure exh au st ga s . Su p p osin g we d ilu t e d i t in 10 0 ; you would a gr e e t h a t t h a t " i s a v e r y sm a ll d ilu t io n i a th e a ir : 1 in 100 ? ---- In or d er t o b r in g o u r fig u r e s down t o t h e Am erican fig u r e s I ca lcu la t e d 1 in 5,000* Q I am a a Sin g you some q u e s t io n s and I sh ou ld be v e r y gla d i f you would t r y and fo llo w , I have give n 100 m illigr a m s o f le a d per cu b ic m etre aa a maximum: th en X g iv e 6 p er oen t o f carbon m onoxide --* wh ich i s a ve r y m oderate e s t im a t e t h a t would g iv e ua 60 m etr es o f car b on m onoxide, \7e must Dr Co p la n a . assume t h a t you h ave d ilu t e d i t -- i t does n ot v e r y much | m a tter , but you adm it t h a t d ilu t io n by 100 i s a ve r y d ilu ted exh au st ga s , That h a s n ever been found in a ga r a ge? ! ---- you r p a r t s in 1 0 , 000, :- q I t i s go in g to be a good d e a l more th an fo u r p a r t 3 in 1 0 , 000: i t i s go in g t o be 6 p a r t s i n 1 0 ,0 0 0 -- ,6 p er cen t ? ---- Ye s , q I f l b reath e t h a t fo r an h ou r, i f i t has 100 m illigr a m s o f le a d , I would baeath e h a lf a m illigr a m o f le a d , bu t I should b r ea th e 300 o c. o f 0 . 0 , You w i l l adm it t h a t a s s u b s t a n t ia l] c o r r e c t ? ---- Ye s , I w i l l a cce p t t h a t , jfha.% i s 300 c c . o f q ------------------------------- :----- ----- ----------- / i C.O, would h ave s a t u r a t e d my blood and I would h ave t o be t a xa ia w a y in an a m b u la n ce ?---- q u it e so . You would n ot st a ] th ere th at tim e, * q Ho, but I must s t a y t h e r e fo r a n h ou r to g e t t h e h a lf m illigr a m o f lea d ? -- q u it e 30* q But would h a lf a m illigr a m o f le a d m a t t er to me? ----Hot the sligh test, q Would 300 oc o f 0 . 0 ,? ---- Th at would p oison you . q Then may I n o t su gge s t t h a t you h ave somewhat exa gger a t ed - - p o ssib lyw ith the^ beat in ten tion s o f p rotectin g the p u blic h ea lth th e danger t h a t o f n e ce ss it y a r is e s in oon fin ed a r e a s , X s a y exa gger a t ed , t h a t i s a l l ? ---- W ell, how f a r i s i t j u s t i f i a b l e t o e xa gge r a t e a r ia x t o p u b lic h ealth ? q I Bum am a s k in g you q u e s t io n s ? ---- That i s t h e Whole p r a o t ii o f p u b lic h e a lt h ^ t o e xa gger a t e t h e r is k : t o sa y *Do n ot do t h in gs becau se o f t h e r i s e 1. ---- you r p a r t s in 10 ,0 0 0 , - ^' ***'* <051r :5| Q I t i s go in g to be a good d e a l more th an fo u r p a r t s in j ' -.-7* 10 ,0 0 0 : i t i s go in..g t o ,be 6 p a r t s i n 10 ,0 0 0 -- .6 p er cen t?-45 ---- Ye s . * I f I b r e a t h e t h a t fo r a n h ou r , i f i t h as 100 m illigr a m s o f f rf le a d , would b r ea t h e h a l f a m illigr a m o f le a d , b u t I should b r ea th e 300 o c. o f 0 *0 , You w i l l ad ia it t h a t a s s u b s t a n t ia l] co r r e ct ? -- Ye s , I w i l l a cce p t t h a t * jf a &t i s 300 c c . o f <1 .0 ,0 , would h ave s a t u r a t e d my blood an d 1 would h ave t o be t sueanaway in an am bulance? - Q u it e so . You would n ot a t a j th ere th a t tim e, - 'V' , 4i <4 Ho, but I must s t a y t h e r e fo r a n h ou r t o g e t t h e h a lf m illigr a m o f lea d ? - --- Q u it e s o . But would h a lf a m illigr a m o f le a d m a t t er t o me? -- Hot the sligh test, q Would 300 oc o f C . O , ? ---- That would p oison you . Q Then may I n o t su ggest t h a t you h ave somewhat exa gger a t ed -- p ossib ly with the best in ten tion s o f p rotectin g th e p u blic h ea lth -- th e danger t h a t o f n e ce s s it y a r is e s in co n fin ed a r e a s , Jr s a y e xa gge r a t e d , t h a t i s a l l ? ---- W e ll, how f a r i s i t j u s t i f i a b l e t o e xa gge r a t e a r ia ic t o p u b lic h ealth ? . vi?.. / . ' " ' ' ' Q I asm am a sicin g you q u e s t io n s ? -- That i s t h e wh ole p r a o t ic o f p u b lic h e a lt h ;t o e xa gge r a t e t h e r ia ic: t o s a y *Do n ot do th in gs because o f th e r ia x ", Q Then I may taice i t t h a t you adm it t h a t you h ave e xa gger a t ed th e riaic? -- t o t a lly deny t h a t , a i r . I may h ave ' o ve r -e s t im a t e d t h e r e s u lt o f wh at i s commonly u sed , bu t a t th e same t im e i t i s j u s t i fi a b l e t o o ve r - e s t im a t e r ia h s and exaggerate: th at i s p a rt o f the p r a ct ice o f p u b lic h e a lt h now a l l o ve r t h e w o r ld . We do n ot t e l l p eop le t h e Dr Coplan a d an ger in s c i e n t i fi c ter ras: we s a y "Do n o t do t h is , o r i t w i l l p u n ish you fo r * d oin g i t * . With r ega r d t o t h e 6 p a r t s in 10,000 do you mind sp ea kin g o f 4 p a r t s in lOfflOQ, a m th en r e co n s id e r in g yo u r fig u r e in th e l i g h t o f 4 p a r t s in 10 ,0 0 0 , b ecau se t o ray mind you h ave cr e a t e d a not ; h yp o t h et ica l ca se, and I am/ prepared to answer a h yp oth etioa; case. q W ill you t&fce 4 p a r t s in 10 ,0 0 0 o f ca r bon m on oxide. That would be on t h e li m it o f car b on m on oxid e?----- X am n ot a t s a l l s u r e , a i r . You w i l l h ave a w it n e s s fo llo w in g who ` w i l l be prepared to apeax to you w ith a u t h o r it y on th e an alyses o f gases in garages, I understand th a t 4 parts in 10 ,0 0 0 i s n ot a t a l l u n u su a l in a ga r a ge , do not q adm it t h a t ? --- Then would you mind, in p la ce o f t h e h a lf m illigram , reducin g i t to fo u r -sixt h s: two-th ird s o f a h a lf, th a t i s a th ir d o f a m illigram ? s'" '' . q Y e s ? ---- So in p la ce o f yo u r h a l f m illigr a m you adm it t h a t th ere is a t h ir d o f a m illigram o f lead ? q fo u ld a t h ir d o f a m illigr a m h u r t y o u ? ---- Ho, n ot a t a l l ; ; but t h a t i s n ot th e p oin t: lea d i s a cum ulative p oison , and the con stan t breath in g in a f a t h ir d o f a m illigram ; per hour i s un doubtedly, in the lig h t o f in d u s t r ia l experienc a ve r y wrong t h in g to p erm it, q Supposing you were to t a xe th e con clu sion s o f Dr L e g g e -- an exp er t on lea d p oison in g, you w i l l adm it ? -- i a sx t h a t a l l t h ese t h in gs sh ould be in t e r p r e t e d in th e lig h t o f h ie ,- .' experien ce, -' plumbism q Very w e ll. 1 t h in x he s a id t h a t th e lim it fo r a m in er , fo r / 6 p ar t t u 10 ,0 0 0 , do you mind sp ea xin g ox p a r es in 10^ 000, and th en r e co n s id e r in g yo u r fig u r e in th e l i g h t o f 4 p a r t s in 10 ,0 0 0 , b ecau se t o my mind you h ave o r ea t ed a not h yp o th etica l ca se, and I am/ prepared to answer a h yp o th etica l case* q -W ill you t a xe 4 p a r t s in 10 ,0 0 0 o f ca r b on m on oxide. Sh at : would be on t h e li m it o f ca r b on monoxide? I am n ot a t a l l s u r e , a i r . You w i l l have a w it n e s s fo llo w in g who ' w i l l be prepared to speax to you w ith a u t h o r it y on th e - an alyses o f gases in garages. X understand th a t 4 p arts ' in 10 ,0 0 0 i s n ot a t a l l u n u su a l in a ga r a ge .' .-.li 1 do not 3 V- Q 1 a d m it t h a t ? ----- Then would you mind, in p la ce o f t h e i h a lf m illigram , reducin g i t to fo u r -sixt h s: two-th ir d s o f a h a lf, th a t i s a th ir d o f a m illigram ? q Yes? -- So in p la ce o f yo u r h a lf m illigr a m you ad m it t h a t th ere is a t h ir d o f a m illigram o f lead ? q ^ ou ld a t h ir d o f a m illigr a m h u r t y o u ? ---- Ho, n ot a t a l l ; but t h a t i s n ot th e p oin t: lea d is a cum ulative poison , and th e con stan t breath in g in a f a t h ir d o f a m illigram par hour i s un doubtedly, in th e lig h t o f in d u s t r ia l exp erien c a ve r y wrong t h in g to p erm it. $ Su p p osin g you wer e t o t a xe t h e co n clu s io n s o f Dr legge -- .. an exp er t on le a d p oison in g,' you w i l l adm it ? -- x a sx t h a t ' a l l t h ese t h in gs sh ould be in t e r p r e t e d in th e li g h t o f h i e . e xp e r ie n ce , ..... : ............. ......... ' plumb ism q Ver y w e ll, x t h in x he s a id t h a t th e lim it fo r a m in er, fo r / in t h e li g h t o f le a d t e s t a , was two m illigr a m s fo r e ig h t h ou r s a day? -- X th ou gh t h e s a id 10 h ou r s a d a y; s t i l l , i t dues n ot m a t t e r , A t o t a l o f two m illigr a m s a d ay, q Yes,* One t h ir d o f a m illigr a m wou ld l a s t me s i x h ou r s, , Th is t a xe s me t h r e e h ou r a t o g e t a m illigr a m , i s i t r ea son a b le t o suppose t h a t anybody i s goin g t o st o p in a t r a ffi c b lock fo r s ix hour very day o f t h e ir l i f e . # -- X do n o t know* you were t a lk in g aftout a ga r a ge* ' q h o , I was t a lk in g abou t a t r a f f i c b lock* r h ave n o t s a id . * a n yt h in g abou t ga r a ge s . -- x th ou gh t you were t a lk in g abou t th e v e n t ila t io n o f a ga r a ge. I s a id t h a t an exp er t would r '. . ' ~y\;. t e l l you what t h e a i r wag in a ga r a ge : fo u r p a r t in t e n thousand. " . ' ;.:y - fff| 0, But I wae r e fe r r in g t o a remark o f you r s on page 10 o f :- you r memorandum, and I asked you wh eth er you d id n o t t h in k you had exa gger a t ed i t ? -- May I be a llo w ed t o lo o k ? ,, c h a ir m a n : *Xn t r a f f i c b lo c k s , w it h t h e r a cin g o f en gin es t h a t occu rs im m ediately fo llo w in g a p er iod o f id lin g and st o r a ge o f lea d in th e exh a u st system - so. r e s u lt in g in den se dlscharg< o f r ic h ly lea d ed exh au st ~ th e co n d it io n s o f atm osphere may w e ll become h ig h ly d an gerous m t h e im m ediate n eigh bou rh ood where t h e s e t t li n g h eavy le a d d u st w ill go on a ccu m u la t in g. That i s on p age 10 . -- - 1 s e e , -------------------- ------------------~~~ The r eason t h a t t a k e s p la ce i s t h is : fo llo w in g t h e id lin g o f , , ' ;,v'v ' - . yy.-.v . an en gin e yihu su d d en ly g e t a r a cin g and g e t a d is ch a r ge o f ; r lch ly lead ed exh au st., '' : 3 i r CHARLES MARTINI They would n o t be r a cin g a l l t h e t im e ; . most o f th e tim e th ey would b e id lin g in th e b lo c k ? -- . T e s f b u t you have t h a t r ep ea ted . X im agined t h a t t h a t b lo ck i s t a k in g p la ce f o r f i v e m in u tes} in fa c t i t i s go in g on a l l day lo n g, and ever y fiv e m in utes you a r e goin g t o have a r is k o f a number o f en gin es wit h a d isch a r ge o f clou d s r ic h ly .. la d en w it h le a d ; t h a t is th e co n d it io n t h a t I h ave in my mind $ Tou h ave e xp la in ed t o t h e Chairman t h a t you wer e n ot a b le q Ho, I was t a l k i e a b r a m e b a u * -*- ,,"_..' an ytn in g about ga r a ges. -- I th ou gh t you ora t a lk in g about th a v e n t ila t io n o f a ga r a ge . I s a id t h a t an e xp e r t would t e l l you what t h e a i r was in a ga r a ge; fo u r p a r t e in t e n thousand. 0 But I wae r e fe r r in g t o a remark o f you r a on page 10 o f you r memorandum, and I asked you wh eth er you d id n o t t h in k i you had exa gger a t ed i t ? ---- May X he a llo w ed t o lo o k ? CHAIRMAN: *ln t r a f f i c b lo c k s , w it h t h e r a cin g o f en gin es t h a t occu rs im m ediately fo llo w in g a p er iod o f id lin g and sto r a ge o f le a d In th e exh a u st system * so. r e s u lt in g in dense d isch a r ge o f r ic h ly lead ed exh au st - th e co n d it io n s o f atm osphere may \A m. w e ll become h ig h ly dan gerou s in t h e im m ediate n eigh bourh ood i'.M.s where t h e s e t t li n g h eavy le a d d u st w i ll go on a ccu m u la tin g. That i s on page 10 . ---- .I s e e . ----------- ------------------------------ ^ m e reason th a t takes p lace is t h is : followin g the id lin g o f an en gin e you sudden ly ge t a r a cin g and ge t a d isch a r ge o f ; r ich ly lead ed exh au st. 4. 3 i r CHARLE3 MARTINI They would n o t be r a cin g a l l t h e tim e; most o f t h e tim e t h e y would bo id lin g in t h e b l o c k ? ---- ye s * b u t you have t h a t r ep ea t ed . I im agined t h a t t h a t b lo ck 10 t a k in g p la ce fo r f i v e m in u t es; in fa c t i t i s go in g on a l l day lo n g , and ever y fiv e m in utes you a r e go in g t o have a r is k Of a number o f en gin es w it h a d isch a r ge o f clou d s r ic h ly la d en w it h le a d ;, t h a t i s th e co n d it io n t h a t I h ave in my mind. $ you h ave e xp la in ed t o t h e Chairman t h a t you wer e n ot a b le ' . ''.other t o exam in ^ m eoh an ios who had been en gaged wit h o a r s t h a t used e t h yl p e t r o l - in you r exp erim en ts; and a ls o t h a t you had n oth ad a.n op p or tu n ity, o r i t d id n ot occu r t o you , t o ; -V,-. ;v-`> > &? examine t h e ir e xcr e t a befor eh an d ? -- I had n ot t h e o p p o ^ n i % Anyhow, I V was n o t don e? --- 1 had n ot t h e o p p o r t u n it y. ;?- 19 :v^ xa. q Ai a e le n t in o man do you f e e l j u s t i fi e d In d r awin g an y >i -AS con clu sion wh atever from th e fa c t t h a t one o f t h ose m ech an ics I had got a t r a ce o f lea d in h ie Secas a t th e end o f t h a t tim e? ! -- I t h in k i t j u s t i fi e d h avIn g su ch a man u n d er o b s e r va t io n . ~ q I ashed you wheth er you con sid er ed i t j u s t ifia b le t o draw Vk' an y co n clu s io n s . ~ How sh ou ld one draw a co n clu s io n from onl ca s e , o r two ca s e s ? fir CHAIRMAN: Tou r an swer i s Ho? -- That i s s o . ' -$* 3 ir CHARLES MARTIN: Do you t h in k i t would be absu rd t o draw an y * con clu sion s? -- I th in k an. Q On th e o t h e r h an d , I ga t h er ed t h a t you a t t a ch e d co n s id e r a b le 1 im portan ce t o t h a t , from some a cco u n t s o f you r s t h a t I saw in The D a ily M a il. Was I m ist a k en , an a you do n ot a t t a c h an y Im portan ce t o t h a t ? ---- I a t t a ch no undue im p ortan ce t o i t . ' I say I con sid er i t ju s t ifie d . q I mean, t a lk in g t o t h is Co m m it t ee?---- Ho, I ara n ot t a lk in g t o a Com m ittee, I am t a lk in g t o a p u b lic m eetin g* CHAIRMAN. You a r e t a lk in g t o a Co m m it t e e .---- ye a , b u t t h is i s . j p u b lic e vid e n ce , t h e r e fo r e I ami n o t e n t it le d t o sa y mat h appen ed , m a t X s a id was t h a t i t i s as w e ll t h a t t h e se men sh ou ld be kep t un der m ed ica l o b se r va t io n : I say t h a t was ju stifia b le , there is a r isk . 5 CHAIRMAN; l e t u s g e t i t q u it e c le a r . Alth ou gh t h e p u b lic i s h er e w a r e e xp e ct in g you t o an swer t o th a b e s t o f you r a b i l i t y . ---- Te s, I hope iwaKu Bat what I mean i s t h is ; t h is exa m in a tion rifi i s r a t h e r h in gin g roun d t h e f a c t t h a t i r eported t h in gs in The D a ily M a ll. As a m a t t er o f fa c t I p r e fe r t o be examined on t h is memorandum wh ich X h ave su b m itted t o t h e com m ittee. .naa go* a t r a ce or xeaa m n is a t t h e end o f t h a t tim e? .v, Y/?als -- I t h in k I t j u s t i f i e d h a vin g su ch a man u n d er o b se r va t io n *y| | q I asked you wh eth er you co n sid er ed i t j u s t i fi a b l e t o draw .?8 an y co n clu sio n . -- - Ho sh ou ld one draw a co n clu s io n from one| | ca s e , o r two ca se ? ` "1 CHAIRMAN: You r an swer 1 No? -- Th at i s so . fj 3 i r CHARLE3 MARTIN: so you t h in k i t would be absu rd t o draw an y Y. c o n c lu s io n s ? ---- I t h in k s o . | Q On th e o t h e r h an d , X ga t h er ed t h a t you a t t a ch e d co n s id e r a b le Y-jif im p ortan ce t o t h a t from some accou n t o f yo u r s t h a t I saw i n ''M m e D a ily M a il. Was I m ist a k en , an a you do n ot a t t a c h an y im portance t o t h a t ? I a t t a ch no undue im portance t o it * ..3 3 I ay I con sid er i t ju s t ifie d * , . -v " f ,i Q I mean, t a lk in g t o t h is Com m ittee? -- No, I am n ot t a lk in g t o . a Com m ittee, I am t a lk in g t o a p u b lic m eetin g* Y; CHAIRMAN: You a r e t a lk in g t o a Co m m it t e e .---- Ye s , b u t t h is 1 p u b lic e vid e n ce , t h e r e fo r e I am n o t e n t it le d t o sa y what h ap pen ed . What I s a id was t h a t i t i s a s w e ll t h a t t h e s e men sh ou ld be kep t un der m ed ica l o b ser va t io n : I say t h a t was ju s t ifia b le . There i s a r is k . CHAIRMAN: Le t u s g e t i t q u it e c le a r . Alth ou gh t h e p u b lic i s h e r e, we a r e e xp e ct in g you t o an swer t o th^ b e s t o f yo u r a b i l i t y , ^ ---- Ye s , X hope Imam* Bat what I mean i s t h i s : t h i s exa m in a tion i s r a t h e r h in gin g round th e fa c t t h a t I reported t h in gs in The D a ily M a il * As a m a t t er o f fa c t I p r e fe r t o b e examined on t h is memorandum which X h ave su b m itted t o t h e Com m ittee. Y S ir CHARLES MARTIN: I q u it e a gr ee w it h you ,P'-Th at i s why I m en tion ed th e memorandum.---- I t h in k when I communicated t h is memorandum I s a id t h a t I sh ou ld l i k e t o be cr oss-exa m in ed o r t o an swer q u e s t io n s on t h e memorandum, n ot on what appeared do in The D a ily M a il, a lt h o u gh t h e D a lly M a ll a r t ic le e / n o t in an y x3. sn ape o r form va r y from t h i s memorandum. q As t o t h e exp er im en ts t h a t you d id y o u r s e lf - p u t t in g 5 oo, was I t , o f e t h yl p a t r o l on yo u r arm - what p a r t ic u la r method d id you u se fo r e st im a t in g le a d u n der t h ose : ^^ cir cu m sta n ces? --- I have t a b le d a l i s t o f methods u sed . > i q But i h ave n ot seen them . -- '' Aft e r a l l , I am asked t o p r e s e a t . _ sI 26 co p ie s o f t h e s e , and I t i s a t my own exp en se; f i v e o r six* cop ies are q u ite s u fficie n t . j q Bid y ou u se t h e sp e ct r o sco p e method? --- No, t h is i s a d ir eVc t. .;>Y determ in ation . * q you a r e r e s p o n s ib le fo r t h a t ? -- ye s , x am r e s p o n s ib le , . fo r th at. - q You h ave s a id how you d id i t ? -- Ye s. $ That we s h a ll s e e . >2 cou ld n ot make ou t from you r an swers t o r th e 'Chairman wh eth er you were aware o f th e En q u ir y in t o t h e p o s s ib le h azard o f t h is m a t e r ia l t h a t was u n d ertaken b y th e Un ited S t a t e s P u b lic H ealth s e r v ic e between Tune 19 2 5 and J an u ar y 19 2 6 . Th is i s i t ? ( I n d ic a t in g p u b lic a t io n ) . v, you know t h is ? -- In t h a t p a r t ic u la r form I do n ot know i t . 1 know t h e p u b lica t io n o f t h e Rep or t o f Mesfem iifsa E n gin eer in g and t o t h a t I r e fe r in th e a r t ic le s t h a t 1 have a lr ea d y p u b lish e d in The M ed ica l O ffic e r and The B r it is h Med ical . . J o u r n a l. I was aware o f t h a t , b u t t h e d a t e you r e fe r t o , J une 1925 t o J an u ar y 1926 i s n ot m a ccor d w it h t h e p e r io d Si t h a t x know: t h e p e r io d o f in v e s t ig a t io n t h a t 1 know i s fr om 'M . May down t o s ix o r seven months fa llo w in g . '. Q There was o n ly on e En q u ir y by th e Un ited s t a t e s p u b lic H ea lth S e r vice , and t h e y made, t h e i r r e p o r t in J an u ar y 19 2 6 . method d id you u se fo r e st im a t in g le a d u n der th ose cir cu m st a n ces? -- I have t a b le d a n e t o f method used q But I h ave n ot seen t h e m .---- A ft e r a l l , X am asked t o p r esen t 26 co p ie s o f t h e s e , and i t i s a t my own exp en se: f i v e o r s ix ! cop ies are q u ite s u fficie n t . f - - ;.ci l q Did you u se t h e sp e ct r o sco p e method? -- No, t h is i s a d ir e c t f d eterm in ation . i q you a r e r e s p o n s ib le fo r t h a t ? -- y e s , I am r e s p o n s ib le | fo r th at. 5 q You h ave s a id how you d id i t ? -- y e s . y 1| q Th at we s h a ll see* y l cou ld n o t make ou t from you r an swer s t o 1 ^ th e Chairman wh eth er you were aware o ft h e E n q u ir y in t o t h e - p o s s ib le h azard o f t h is m a t e r ia l t h a t was u n dertaken b y th e United s t a t e s P u b lic H ealth Se r vice between June 19 2 5 and ; J an u ar y 19 2 6 . Th is i s i t ? ( in d ic a t in g p u b lic a t io n ) . You know t h is ? -- In t h a t p a r t ic u la r form I do no% know i t . (J ,. I know t h e p u b lica t io n o f t h e Rep or t o f *E6ehmtiF5El E n gin eer in g and t o t h a t X r e fe r in th e a r t ic le s t h a t I have a lr ea d y p u b lis h e d in The M ed ioai O ffic e r and The B r it is h Med ical J o u r n a l. I was aware o f t h a t , b u t t h e d a t e you r e fe r t o , J une 19 2 5 t o J an u ary 1926 i s n ot in a ccor d w it h t h e p e r io d t h a t x know; t h e p e r io d o f in v e s t ig a t io n t h a t I know i s fr o a : May down t o s i x o r seven m onths fa llo w in g . q ih e r e was o n ly on e En q u ir y by t h e Un ited s t a t e s p u b lic H ea lt h S e r v ic e , and t h e y wade, t h e i r r e p o r t in J an u ar y 19 2 6 . -- That h as s p e c ific r e fe r e n ce t o th e le a d in ga r a ge w o r k e r s ,' X take Its eth yl-p etr ol u sers. q You h ave n o t seen I t ? ---- I t may be r e fe r r in g t o t h e same t h in * b ecau se we a r e t o ld t h a t t h e r e a r e o t h e r r e p o r t s . _ Here i s an a lle g e d Government r e p o r t , ( in d ic a t in g gr een b o o k). Th at was p u b lis h e d in 1927 Th en h er e i s a n ot h er r e p o r t . q, But s u r e ly i t i s s u ffic ie n t t o id e n t ify i t b y t h e Un ited , , S t a t e s P u b lic H ea lt h s e r v ic e . The o t h e r Booh you r e fe r t o i s The Bu reau o f M in e s .---- 'That i s th e Su r ge o n -G en e r a l's r e p o r t t h a t I Know. q You were aware o f t h is p u b lic a t io n ? ---- I a a aware o f it # May I lo o k a t i t ? q C e r t a in ly. (Handing b o o k ) . ---- I h ave n o t seen i t in t h i s co ve r ; I h ave seen i t r e p o r t e d in The J o u r n a l o f ch em ica l 1 In dustry. ^ q Th is was r e fe r r e d t o in t h e P r oceed in gs o f The Am erican M ed ica l As s o cia t io n on more th an one o cca s io n , and was u n d er t a ken a t p u b lic r e q u e s t . ---- I have n ot seen t h is f u l l r ep or t) I h ave seen a copy o f i t s fin d in g s p u b lis h e d in The J o u r n a l o f Chem ical I n d u st r y, and with ge n er a l r e s e r va t io n s , b u t I have n ot seen t h i s , ( in d ic a t in g ) . q As i t i s t h e m ost a u t h o r it a t iv e a ccou n t b y e n t ir e ly unbiasse< p e o p le , and an a ccou n t o f work dons by some o f t h e m ost V ^ capable s c ie n t ific p eop le in the se r vice o f th e United Sta tes Governm en t, i t i s u n fo r t u n a t e t h a t you d id n o t r ead t h e wh ole r e p o r t b e fo r e e xp r e s s in g y o u r s e lf on t h e h a za r d s o f e t h y l p e t r o l a m t m i ; do n ot you t h in k s o ? ---- I do n ot t h in k s o , s: Q You do n ot t h in k i t m a t t e r s ? -- I do n o t t h in k i t m a t t e r s ..^ , co n sid e r a b ly. What I sa id was t h a t th e r e s u lt s foun d h er e were e x a c t ly t h e same a s t h e American, and sh ou ld b e in t e r p r e t * y ea in th e lig h t o f our p e cu lia r ly En glish exp erien ce o f In d u str ia l lea d s. I s p e c ific a lly say in t h is rep ort th a t ^ t h er e is no d iffe r e n ce between th e fin d in gs I have ob ta in ed and t h o se t h a t h ave been o b t a in e d in Am er ica. Th ere JLj. no q You were aware or t u t s p u b lica t io n ? -- X a a aware o f I t * May I lo o n a t i t ? : q C e r t a in ly . {Handing b o o k ). -- I Pave n ot seen i t in t h ia f f l co ve r ; I h ave seen i t r e p o r t e d in The J o u r n a l or Ch em ical 'i In du stry. V-vS q Th is was r e fe r r e d t o in t h e Proceedin gs! o r The Am erican ;! M ed ica l As s o cia t io n on more th an one o cca s io n , and was u n d er -; ta ken a t p u b lic r e q u e s t . -- I have n ot seen t h is f u l l r ep or t* I h ave seen a copy o f i t s fin d in g s p u b lis h e d in The jo u r n a l 1 o f Ch em ical In d u st r y, and with gen er a l r e s e r va t io n s , b u t } I have n ot seen t h i s , ( in d ic a t in g ) . - q a s i t is th e most a u t h o r it a t ive account by e n t ir e ly un biasse: p e o p le , and an a ccou n t o f work done by some o f t h e m ost capable s c ie n t ific p eop le in th e se r vice o f th e u n ited 3 ta tes Governm ent, i t i s u n fo r t u n a t e t h a t you d id n ot r ead t h e Whole r ep o r t b efo r e e xp r e ssin g yo u r s e lf on th e h a zar d s o f e t h y l V p e t r o l a o n t m l; do n o t you t h in k s o ? ---- I do n ot t h in k s o , e: q You do n ot t h in k i t m a t t e r s ? -- I do n ot t h in k i t m a t t e r s co n s id e r a b ly. V h a t jt s a id was t h a t t h e r e s u lt s fou n d h er e were e x a c t ly t h e same a s t h e American, and sh ou ld b e in t e r p r e t ed in th e lig h t o f ou r p e cu lia r ly E n glish exp erien ce o f - in d u st r ia l lea d s. I s p e c ific a lly sa y in t h is rep ort th a t t h er e is no d iffe r e n ce between th e fin d in gs I have ob tain ed , and t h o se t h a t h ave been o b t a in ed in Am er ica. Th ere i s no d iffe r e n c e , I want t o em ph asise t h a t ; b u t I do t h in k t h e r e i s 4 a d iffe r e n ce in ou r in d u s t r ia l con d ition s: in th e clrcum stan oi o f ou r h ou sin g and p o p u la t io n and ou r r oa d s: we h ave no Lin co ln Highway h e r e . .y,vyvx:r.* f l : !*' `4 \~ \ ft- V i /?-, 4/ V Dv Cop lan a, q How lon g h ave t h ey be on u s in g e t h y l p e t r o l In Am er ica, do you now? - -- I t h in * Dr 3 d ga r i s h er e and w i l l p r ob a b ly t e l l you b e t t e r th an 1 ca n . . q Do you now? ---- x things s in ce 1925* Of cou r se i t h as been h eld up pending th e in v e s t ig a t io n , q I t was h eld up wh ich t h is in ve s t ig a t io n ( r e fe r r in g t o booK) was go in g on? ---- Ye s; and 1 t h in * a s f a r a s New Yora i s ^ concerned i t is n ot sold a t a l l . q S t i l l t h e r e h as been t h r ee ye a r s co n t in u a l u a o ? ---- i t : depen ds on t h e co n d it io n s . I f you a a me how many fir m s ^ have been u s in g t h is co n t in u o u s ly from t h e b egin n in g t h e ! an swer would be foun d in som eth in g Dr Kehoe sen t me. That ;.i i s , t h a t you o n ly fin d one la r g e in d u s t r ia l o r ga n is a t io n a c t u a lly in Dayton wh ich i s u sin g i t con tin u ou sly, q ib r liv e yea r s? --- There has bean an in t e m is s io n o f a y e a r . stive y s a r s , from 1925 to 1928 b a r r in g in t e r m is s io n s . , q I t h as b een u sed on an enormous a o a le h as n o t i t ? -- - Accord in t o t h e l e t t e r I have g o t from Dr Kehoe he can o n ly s t a t e one in d u s t r ia l o r ga n isa t io n t h a t has used i t fo r fiv e year ly o r r a t h e r d u r in g a p er iod o f fi v e ye a r s when i t was perm itt* ' .`' to.' bem used,- r-'-yy-yyy ' ::>^k CHAIRMAN! I t h in x t h a t p a r t ic u la r fir m in Dayton Tt o o ` t o , . - . u s in g i t d u r in g t h e p er iod when moat p eop le had give n i t upl - -- That I do n ot now, / q That i s a q u e s t io n fo r t h e Com m it t ee?---- I do n o t now a t i Sir'OHAR&SS MARTIN: But do you t h in * t h e r e a r e 10 0 o r 1,0 0 0 o 10 0 ,0 0 0 ga r a ge em ployees who a r e co n s t a n t ly exposed to t h e r ia o f e t h yl p e t r o l in Am er ica n o w ? ---- Yea, I suppose would be so . q Do you Know? -- i th in K s in a e 1923. Of cou r se i t has been h eld up pending th e in v e s t ig a t io n , q i t was h eld u p wh ich t h ia in v e s t ig a t io n ( r e fe r r in g t o booK) was goin g on? Ye s ; and I t h in * a s f a r a e New YorK la concerned i t is n ot sold a t a l l , q S t i l l t h er e has been th r ee yea r s co n t in u a l use? - -- I t ' depen ds on t h e co n d it io n s . I f you aaK me how many f i r a s have been u s in g t h is co n t in u o u s ly from t h e b egin n in g t h e an swer would be foun d in som eth in g Dr Kehoe s e n t me, That > i s , th a t you o n ly fin d one la r g e in d u s t r ia l o r ga n is a t io n a o t u a lly in Dayton wh ich i s u sin g i t co n t in u o u sly, q Vo r fiv e ye a r s ? --- Th ere h as been an in t e r m is s io n o f a y e a r , l i v e je a r a , from 19 2 3 to 1928 b a r r in g in t e r m is s io n s , q I t h as b een u sed on an enormous s c a le h as n o t i t ? -- - Accord* in to t h e l e t t e r I have g o t from Dr Kehoe he can o n ly s t a t e one in d u s t r ia l o r ga n isa t io n t h a t has u s e d 'it fo r fiv e ye a r s * o r r a t h e r d u r in g a p er iod o f fi v e ye a r s when i t waa p e r a it t e i to be used, CHAIRMAN: I t h in K t h a t p a r t ic u la r fir m in DaytorwtooK to u s in g i t d u r in g t h e p er iod when moat p eop le had give n i t up? ---- That I do n ot Know, q That i s a q u e s t io n fo r t h e ..Com m ittee?---- I do n ot Know a t S ir CHAR&IS3 MARTIN: But do you t h in K t h e r e a r e 100 o r 1,0 0 0 o r 10 0 ,0 0 0 ga r a ge em ployees who a r e co n s t a n t ly exposed t o t h e r ia K o f e t h y l p e t r o l in Am erica now? -- - Yea, I suppose th a t would be so , ^ q On a v e r y la r g e s ca le ? ---- Ye s . On th e o t h e r hand 1 Know o f ga r a ges where t h e y w i ll n ot have i t , . q Do yo u Know o f a n y s in g le s u b s t a n t i a t e d ca se o f le a d p o iso n ! .in Am er ica, a p a r t -from th e p er son s employed in t h e m ixin gsizi and m an u factu r e o f t e t r a - e t h y l le a d i t s e l f ? ---- Have you seen t h i s p u b lica t io n ? (r e d u cin g 'ye llo w boo* >. ;. Q So I have n ot? Th ia was p u b lish ed on March 20 th t h ia ye a r . Th is i s p u b lish ed by t h e Am erican Labour O ffice * Dr BRIDGE; That i a a p u b lica t io n by A lic e H a m ilt o n ?---- Yea , I have marked t h ia p aragrap h in r ed ( in d ic a t in g ) . CHAIRMAS: Does t h a t an swer S i r Ch a r les M a r t in ' s q u est ion ? S i r CHAnil'SS MARTIH: I asiced , d id you now o f a n y su b s t a n t ia t e d ca se o f le a d p oison in g in Am erica? ->**- May I r e fe r t o t&e evid e n ce t h a t J ifaave fu r n is h e d . I may be a llowed t o do t h a t CHAIRMAN: P le a s e do n o t t a lx l i x e t h a t ? ---- ' fe ll, you would nt a llo w me to looX a t my booxs ju s t now, q Becau se you would n o t an swer t h e q u e s t io n ? ---- I want to r e fe r t o a paper now. S i r CHARLES MARTI Hz You h ave put t h is in a s t h e b ea t you can d in an swer t o my q u e s t io n : th e p a ssa ge you h ave u n d e r lin e d in red? ---- That i s one p a r t , q Th is ia th e p a ssa ge from A lic e H am ilton ' s p u b lica t io n ? --~ Ye s , Th a t . pa^ er h a s been 6u l y exam ined and p assed by a Com m ittee. had a n o t h er paper an a b s t r a c t from t h e Am e ric a n -Med1c a l As s o c ia t io n , p u b lish ed in Feb r u ar y o f l a s t > ye a r , in whiah th ey cit e d th e circum stan ces th a t the Standat O il Company had a gr eed to pay o u t o f court* a s damages l a s t ye a r (Pebr u axy 1927 ) 3 5 0 0 G0 d o lla r s dam ages, fo r p eop le who had been in ju r e d in con n ect ion w it h e t h yl ga s -- a s - t h e e xp r e s s io n i s : e t h y l g a s . I do n o t now wh at t h e y mean by i t , bu t I u n d er stood when I was in Am erica l a s t ye a r t h a t ga s o le n e -- ga s -- i s em ployed c o llo q u ia lly t o d ea or ib e what we c a l l p e t r o l in t h is oou n tr y -- s p i r i t . ' q Ar e you q u ot in g som ethin g?, -- I am q u o t in g th e Am erican M ed ical As s o cia t io n p u blish ed in th e Tim es, . - * ' ` '; I \ -1 ; . x -: 1 . v . 1 . > '' . I have jaarjsod t h i s p ar agr ap h in r ed ( in d ic a t in g ) , CHAIRMAH: Does t h a t an swer S i r Ch a r les M a r t in 's q u est ion ? S i r CHARLSS MARTIH: I aajced, d id you now o f an y s u b s t a n t ia t e d ca se o f le a d p oison in g in Am erica? -- - May I r e fe r t o t lie evid en ce t h a t J -Jiave fu r n is h e d , X may be a llowed to do t h a t CHAIRMAN: P le a s e do n o t t a l * l i * e t h a t ? ---- W e ll, you would no ' , a llo w me to lo o * a t my boons ju s t now, y Q Becau se you would n o t an swer t h e q u e st io n ? -- - I want to - r e fe r t o a paper now, ^ S i r CHAP.ISS MARTIHJ You h ave put t h is in a s t h e b e s t you can d in an swer t o my q u e s t io n : t h e p assage you h ave u n d e r lin e d ; in r e d ? ----- That i s on e p a r t . - Q Th is i s th e p assage from A lic e Ha-nil t o n 'a p u b lica t io n ? ^ - -- Ye s , That paper h a s been d u ly examined and passed by a Com mittee, I had a n ot h er p ap er , an a b s t r a c t from t h e " American M ed ica l As s o c ia t io n , p u b lish ed in Febr u ar y o f l a s t ye a r , in which th ey cit e d th e circum stan ces th a t the Stan dar O il Company had a gr eed to p a y ou t o f co u r t a s damages l a s t ye a r (Feb r u a r y 19 2 7 ) 5 5 0 ,0 0 0 d o lla r s dam ages, fo r p eop le who had been in ju r e d in con n ect ion w it h e t h yl ga s -- a s th e e xp r e s s io n i s : e t h y l g a s , I do n o t now wh at t h e y mean by i t , but I u n d er stood when I was in Am er ica l a s t ye a r t h a t ga s o le n e --* ga s -- i s em ployed c o llo q u ia lly t o d e s cr ib e what we c a l l p e t r o l in t h is co u n t r y -- s p i r i t , ,: Q . Ar e you q u o t in g som eth in g? - -- I am q u o t in g th e Am er ican -- ; M ed ical As s o cia t io n pu blish ed in th e Tim es, Q l a t h a t an e d it o r ia l? i t i s a sm all item o f news: 5500G0 d o lla r s wer e p aid a s damages o u t o f Co u r t , I had th e paper t h is m orning in ray han d. Hot o n ly t h a t bu t t h er e a r e o t h e r oa ses s e t t le d o u t o f Co u r t , in wh ich t h e r e w e r e '5a/ : m illio n d o lla r s damages claim ed -- s u it s wh ich have been settled out o f Oourt. 2 r Copiarla Q Was t h is fo r a ccid e n t s t h a t h ave happened in t h e m an u factu r e' ---- I o n ly qu oted them in con n ection w it h e t h yl g a s . I th ou gh t a t f i r s t t h a t they must he r e fe r r in g to th ose , o ld Byferatfa Ac t s But a p p a r e n t ly i t was n o t so: th e word ga s was s p e c i fi c a l l y u sed : o t h e r w is e I would n ot have ta h en n o t ice o f i t , becauee i t would p rob ably be a m an u factu rin g d isa ster. ; S ir SHAHIDS / ARTIii; Bu t you are h er e to g ive u s a l l t h e in fo r m a t io n you c a n ? ---- Ye s . PROF. DIXQH: I r ea d t h a t a ls o , and I t h in n t h a t th ose damages wer e pa.id fo r a o cid e n t s in t h e m an u factu r e o f t h e e t h y l p e t r o l ? ---- I t was n ot t h e m an ufacture o f p e t r o l. PROF. DIXOH: Of le a d e t h y l. CHAIRiaAif; Th at i s t h e e s s e n t i a l d i f f e r e n c e . . TK3 WlIMSSSi May I r ea d t h e paper now. i t is t h e J o u r n a l o f t h e Am erican M ed ica l As s o cia t io n , Sa t u r d a y, F eb r u a r y 2 5 th 19 2 7 : "M ed ica l Hews: Hew J e r s e y: T e t r a - e t h yl ga s : ,, 550 ,0 0 0 d o lla r s dam ages. The Stan d ard 0 41 Company o f H ew^ J e r s e y a gr eed on J an u ar y 2 5 t h t o award u t o f Cou rt damages to t h e amount o f 550 ,0 0 0 d o lla r s to s ix v ic t im s o f poisonin g from t e t r a - e t h y l ga s who had br ou gh t s u it s fo r dam ages- , e t "an d th ere are eaid to be oth er s u it s " ( e t c, read in g fu r t h t o th e w o r d s) '.a ^.;? n e a r ly , one m illio n d o lla r s . The Grand J u r y in v e s t ig a t io n d id n ot fin d ground fo r cr im in a l p r o s ecu t io n '1. That i s th e document I was t r y in g tA fin d . S i r CHARLES MARTIif: Do n ot you t h in * t h a t t h a t r e fe r s to m a n u fa ct u r e ? ---- And may I qu ote wh at a p p ea r s h er e in t h e oth er J ou r n al, and I th in * i t i s r a th er im portan t (r e fe r r in r\ ~>i , o ld By^ wa^ a Ac t s Bu t a p p a r e n t ly i t was n o t so: th e word ga s was s p e c i fi c a l l y u sed : o t h e r w is e I would n ot have ta h en n o t ice o f i t , becau se i t would p r ob ably be a m an ufacturin g d isaster. S ir CHARLES ARTHi; 3 u t you are h er e to g ive ua a l l th e in fo r m a t io n you c a n ? ---- Ye s , FRO?. DIXOH; 1 r ea d t h a t a ls o , and I t h in h t h a t th ose damages were pi id fo r a o cid e n t s in th e m an ufacture o f t h e e t h y l ' p e t r o l? ----I t was n ot t h e m an ufacture o f p e t r o l. BROS'. Dixon ; Of le a d e t h y l. CHAIRHAH: That; i s th e e s s e n t ia l d iffe r e n c e . S3 THE WITHESS: May I r ea d t h e paper now. I t i s t h e J o u r n a l o f ' t h e Am erican M ed ica l As s o cia t io n , Sa t u r d a y, F eb r u a r y 2 5 t h 6 19 2 7 : "M ed ica l Hews: yew J e r s e y: X e t r a - e t h yl ga s : 550 ,0 0 0 d o lla r s dam ages. The Stan d ard 0 41 Company o f Hew J e r s e y a gr eed on J an u ar y 2 5 t h t o award ^ u t o f Cou rt damages to t h e amount o f 3 50 ,0 0 0 d o lla r s t o s ix v ic t im s o f p oison in g from t e t r a - e t h y l ga s who had brou gh t s u it s fo r dam ages- , etc "an d th er e ar e said to be oth er s u it s " ( e t c, read in g furth c to the words) -^ n ear ly,on e m illio n d o lla r s . The Grand J u r y in v e s t ig a t io n d id n ot fin d ground fo r cr im in a l p r o s e cu t io n ". That i s t h e :document I was t r y in g tA fin d / ' S i r CHARLES MARTIM: Do n ot you t h in * t h a t t h a t r e fe r s to ^ ' m a n u fa ct u r e ? ---- And may I qu ote wh at a p p ea r s h er e in t h e ; . oth er J ou r n a l, and I thirnc i t i s r a th er im p ortan t (r efer r in g t o ye llo w docum en t) .^ " CliAIPliAH: Befor e we le a ve t h a t , a s fa r a s I can .see i t was l due to th e le a d e t h yl i t s e l f ? ---- i t sa ys "ga s ", o t h er w ise I would n o t h ave taicen an y n otioo o f i t : I would n ot have brought i t here. Dr* Ooplana S ir OHAHL3S MARXI Hi 3 u t i t sp eaks ab ou t >0 o t h e r =aas and r e fe r s t o a R e fin e r y in Uew J e r s e y ? ---- Yea . q Bein g a t t h e r e fin e r y i t cruet be t h e m an u factu r e o f t e t r a e t h yl? -- I am n o t a t a l l su r e t h a t I ou gh t t o say wh ere t h ia oth er a ct io n occu rred , out th ey are r e fe r r in g to several th in gs, and th ey s p e c ific a lly say t h a t th ere a r e s u it s lod ge fo r damages owing to t e t r a d -e t h yl g a s , f q Bu t you do n o t now wh eth er t h a t means t e t r a - e t h y l p e t r o l? '? -- Whether t h a t occu r r ed in the e t h y lia in g I do n ot Know, q Xhe Committee can a s c e r t a in t h a t ? -- But I would liK e t o r ead t h is , i f you do n o t m ind. - q Please do so? --- *fit i s im p o ssib le t o sa y ju s t how many ca s e s o f a cu t e p oison in g occu r r ed between t h e Autumn o f - 1925 and t h e e a r ly Sp r in g o f 19 2 ?, becau se a good d e a l o f s e cr e cy was m a in t a in ed . The c a s e s , in clu d in g t h e m ild on es, a r e supposed to have r each ed over lo o *. .. ' m .. q Again I asK, i s t h e r e an y evid en ce t h a t t h o se a r o se - owin g t o t e t r a - e t h y l p e t r o l? ---- X do n o t Know, q X r a t h e r t h in K t h a t i t r e fe r s t o t h e m an u factu r e? ---- At ' an y r a t e t h e o n ly p oin t o f t h a t is th e s e cr e cy, q You do n o t Know wh at i t r e fe r s t o ? ---- X can n ot do more t ia n qu ote t h is , bu t I was st r u cx p e r so n a lly by th e fa o t i t h a t s e cr e cy was m a in ta in ed : and t h a t comes from t h e p eop le who a r e in v e s t ig a t in g i t on t h e s p o t . Dr 3RIDGJS: Xt wae a b ou t 19 2 5 when th e a o e id e n t occu r r ed ? -- There were a number o f a ccid e n t s . q That was when t h e y wer e g iv in g up t h e m an u factu r e? -- _ I t h ou gh t t h e t h in g was in common u se in 19 2 3 , i f t h e e t h yl? --~ I am n o t a t a l l s u r e t h a t I ou gh t t o sa y wh ere th is other a ction occurred, out th ey are r efer r in g to several t h in gs, and th ey s p e c ific a lly say t h a t th ere a r e s u it s lodged fo r damages owing t o t e t r a - e t h y l g a s , q But you do n o t now wh eth er t h a t means t e t r a - e t h y l p e t r o l? ---- Whether t h a t occu r r ed in the e t h y lis in g X do n ot now, q The Committee can a s c e r t a in t h a t ? - But x would li e t o r ead t h is , i f you do n o t raind. q jfle a s e do so? --~ "fit i s im p ossib le t o sa y ju s t how many ca s e s o f a cu te p oison in g occu r r ed between t h e Autumn o f , 3$ f >' * 1923 and t h e e a r ly Sp r in g o f 1923* becau se a good d e a l o f V s e cr e o y was m a in t a in ed . The ca s e s , in clu d in g t h e m iild on es, a r e supposed t o have r each ed over 10 0 ", q Again I a s *, i s t h e r e an y evid en ce t h a t t h o se a r o se owin g t o t o t r a - e t h y l p e t r o l? --- I do n ot now, q I r a t h e r th in K t h a t i t r e fe r s t o t h e m an u factu r e? ---- At . JI. an y r a t e t h e o n ly p o in t o f t h a t la t h e s e cr e cy, q You do n o t now wh at i t r e fe r s t o ? ---- 2 can n ot do wore th an qu ote t h is , bu t I was s t r u c t p e r s o n a lly by t h e fa c t t h a t s e cr e cy was m a in ta in ed ; and t h a t comes from t h e p eop le who a r e in v e s t ig a t in g i t on t h e s p o t . Dr 33HIDGJ5; I t was a b ou t 192 3 when th e a ccid e n t 0 0 cu r red? * There ware a number o f a ccid e n t s , q That was when t h e y war e g iv in g up t h e m an u factu r e? ---- X t h ou gh t t h e t h in g'w a s in coifimon u se in 19 23, I f t h e m a t e r ia l was i n common u se in 19 2 3 * t h en th e a o o id en t a h ave occu r r ed s in ce t h e m a t e r ia l h as come in bo common u se -- two ye a r s a ft e r w a r d s . SIR CHARL32S MARTIN; Thac^ you , I h ave no more q u e st io n s to as 5J6 X li 2>r copian Mr PtBi I sh ou ld l i k e t o r e fe r t o yo u r exp er im en ts on cr an k o a t s o i l b eca u se I t h in k th ey a r e o f some co n s id e r a b le I n t e r e s t * On page 7 o f yo u r in t r o d u ct io n you sa y t h i s : *ln exam in in g t h e u sed cran k ca se o i l and slu d ge t a ken from t h e en gin e sump o f a ca r , and a ls o the chain and sp rocket washings o f a m otor '. b icycle u sin g e t h yl petrQ& as m otor fu e l, I determ ined th e . p resen ce o f v o la t i le le a d , a s in deed m ight be exp ected . - Then on p age 10 o f yo u r t h ir d memorandum in t h e t a b le . . /. r e fe r r in g t o cr an k ca s e o i l , t h e r e 1 a s e c t io n which r e fe r s t o t h e Rep ort o il Mechan ics A* & B. Th ere i s s t a b l e wh ich g iv the t o t a l lead p resen t in the crank case o il and lead v o la t ile Th at is e st im a t ed a s le a d t e t r a - e t h y l. The t o t a l le a d p r e se n t i s *07 p e r ce n t , and th e v o l a t i l e lea d i s .0 78 * X t h in k i f I t can be proved t h a t t h er e i s le a d p r e se n t as le a d t e t r a - e t h y l In the crank case o il in in cr ea sin g co n cen t r a t io n , t h a t i s a ve r y im p or tan t p o in t ; b u t I sh ou ld l i k e t o know wh eth er you a r e q u it e ce r t a in t h a t th e le a d which you foun d and wh ich you s t a t e was v o l a t i l e le a d i s in th e form o f le a d t e t r a - e t h y l*^ - - -- I see the p oin t, sir * n r s t of a ll, it is vo la tile * you w i l l see from th e addenda I pu t in a s t o th e methods em ployed ;. q I h ave n o t seen t h a t ; b u t p er h ap s you can t e l l u s how t h a t ' le a d was m easured? -- Would-you ca r e t o see t h is ? 0, But cou ld you t e l l u s s h o r t ly how t h e leal p r e se n t was m easured and how you id e n t ify i t as b e in g p r e s e n t in t h e v o l a t i le fo m ? --- You w i l l s e e i f you r e f e r t o i t . u sed o ils -- ; q Cou ld you n ot ju s t t e l l u s s h o r t ly? I u n d er stan d you d id K4'*.**v . ------------------------- -------------------------- <t - -- - -- .7 . * . W4M I u sed cran k ca se o i l and slu d ge t a ken from t h e en gin e sump o f a 1 '. r v w . ca r , and a ls o the chain and sp rocket washings o f a motor V F b icycle u sin g e t h yl p e t r e l as motor fu e l, I determ ined t h e . > - * ' yM p r esen ce o f v o l a t i l e le a d , a s in d eed m igh t h e exp ect ed ** >, * *;: 4. & . :- t h en on page 10 o f yo u r t h ir d memorandum in t h e t a b le 3 7 %*! / "7 . 'V r e fe r r in g t o cran k ca s e o i l , t h e r e i# a s e ct io n which r e fe r s ' ;. t o t h e a e p o r t o il Mechan ics A. & B. Th ere i. s t a b l e wh ich g ive s the t o t a l lead presen t in the crank case o i l and lead vo la tile *^ - -'>M Th at is e st im a t ed a s le a d t e t r a - e t h y l. The t o t a l le a d p r e s e n t i s *0 7 p e r ce n t , and th e v o l a t i l e lo a d i s *07 I t h in k I f l i p 7 can he proved t h a t t h er e i s le a d p r e s e n t a s le a d t e t r a - e t h y l 7; in th e cran k ca se o i l in in cr e a s in g co n ce n t r a t io n , t h a t i s a *'7 ve r y im p or tan t p o in t ; h u t 1 sh ou ld l i k e t o know wh eth er you * a r e q u it e ce r t a in t h a t th e le a d wh ich you foun d and Which you ", s t a t e was v o l a t i l e le a d is in th e form o f le a d t e t r a - e t h y l. -- I see the p oin t, sir * yir s t of a ll, it is vo la tile * ri--' . you w i l l see from th e addenda I p u t in a s t o t h e methods - em ployed. q I have n ot seen t h a t ? h u t p er h ap s you cash t e l l u s how t h a t le a d was m easured If *-- Would you ca r e t o see t h is ? q But cou ld you t e l l u s s h o r t ly now t h e lend p r e se n t was -7 m easured and how you id e n t ify i t a s "being p r e s e n t in t h e : v o l a t i l e fo n a ? ---- you w i ll se e i f you r e fe r t o i t . used OilS---- -- --' -.f ' , ' . ' V'/ C:: q cou ld you n ot ju s t t e l l u s s h o r t ly? 1 u n derstan d you d id ;i t h is experim en t yo u r s e lf and took a sam ple o f cran k case o i l . , and a n a lysed i t and determ in ed t h e am ou n ts. -- The tem p er atu r e o f v o l a t i l i s a t i o n was 2 *0 t o 230 ( je n t ig r a d a i. I would r a t h e r you read t h i s . -- " AT^lfA, Dr co pian t r ->1 (f $ I sh ould li x e th e com m ittee t o un derstan d n ot t h is le a d p e t r o l t a t est im a t ed ? -- I t was eBtim abed in t h is way: t h e t o t a l lead estim ated and the estim ation of n o n -vo la t ile lead , Qt q u it e s o . -- And t h e method dr d iffe r e n c e - t h e r e s u lt s a r e d iffe r e n t, i f the n on -vola tile lea d is le s s , the d iffer en ce i s th e v o l a t i le p o r t io n . At t o wh eth er i t i s le a d e t h y l o r seme d e r iv a t iv e o f le a d t e t r a - e t h yit * t h a t i s t o Bay le a d t r i - e t h y l and ca r b o n a t e, o r som eth in g; I do n ot know. Mr CHAPMAN: Do you mean v o l a t i l e a t 2 2 0 tem p er a tu r e? -- - At t h a ` tem perature, yes: a t the temperature of 220 to 230 utsaw I t ' was v o l a t i l e in th e m a t e r ia l we were u s in g. There was n ot . s u ffic ie n t t o d eter m in e wh eth er i t was le a d t e t r a - e t h y l o r P e tr a . lead ./ trfc-eth yl, because in oth er experim ents th e lea d p e t r o l is n ot so v o la t i le , or does not v o la t i lis e so r a p id ly, Mr FIB: You a r e q u it e ce r t a in t h a t t h e le a d p r e s e n t was in t h e form o f le a d e t h y l? '---- Ye s ; i t i s v o l a t i l e le a d a t t h a t tem perature. . Q Did you t e s t an y sam ples o f u sed crank, ca s e o i l wh ich had b een taKen from an en gin e which had n ot b een u sin g e t h y l p e t r o l - by way o f co n t r o l? -*-- Ho. 0, You d id n ot taXe an y co n t r o l? -- No. q Would you a gr e e t h a t i t i s ilX e ly ,o r p o s s ib le , l e t u s s a y, S t h a t a l l u sed cranX ca se o i l would co n t a in t r a c e s o f lea d ? -- I should th in K so . . q You a gr ee t h a t t h a t i s s o ? ---- Ye s . F or in s t a n ce , th e Xerosene o ils th a t a r e used con ta in ea t r a ce s o f lea d -- ord in ary Xerosene o i l . i:%^ So t h a t ; t h e e ff e c t o f in cr e a s in g t h e ,d ajiger th r ou gh t h e u se c t o t a l le ad s s tlm ate d and the e s tim atio n or n o n -vo la tile load* ' ' S.--' .-V " V q quit s o . --- And th e method Of: l f f i r o n i e - the re s u lts are d iffe r e n t , i f the n on -vola tile lea d is le a s , the d iffer en ce ,' A is* is the vo la tile some d e r iv a t iv e p ortion , a s t o whether i t is lead e th yl o f le a d tetr a~ eth yi*> t h a t i s t o sa y le a d or. 'a . .~&-vS*Ss` t r i - e t h y l and ca r b o n a t e, o r som eth in g; I do n ot Know, i i-Vj t * : Mr CHAPMAN; d o you mean v o l a t i l e a t 220 tem p er a t u r e? -- - At t h a i| t em p er a t u r e, y e s : a t th e tem p er atu r e o f 220 t o 2 30 u s a w i t tjt was v o l a t i l e in th e m a t e r ia l we were u sin g. There was n ot r,1 s u ffi c i e n t t o d eter m in e wh eth er i t was le a d t e t r a - e t h y l o r - v| f te tra /. .. . - -im lea d .tr fc-eth yl, becau se in oth er experim ents th e lea d p e t r o l^ is n ot so v o la t i le , or does not v o la t i lis e so r a p id ly, - '3 .. Mr PYB; You a r e q u it e ce r t a in t h a t t h e le a d p r e s e n t was in t h e form o f le a d e t h yl? ---- Ye s ; i t i s v o l a t i l e le a d a t t h a t M tem perature* . q Did you t e s t an y sa r n ie s o f used cran k ca se o i l which had b een ta ken from an en gin e which had n ot been u sin g e t h yl p e t r o l - by way o f co n t r o l? '-- h o, q You d id n o t t a k e an y co n t r o l? -- Ho. q Would yo u a gr e e t h a t i t i s l i k e l y , or p o s s ib le , l e t ue s a y, ' . . . 4 ' . _. t h a t a l l usd cr an k ca se o i l would co n t a in t r a c e s o f lea d ? --- I should th in k so , . q You a gr ee t h a t t h a t i s so ? -- Yes* ? o r in s t a n ce , t h e ker o sen e o i l s t h a t a r e u sed co n t a in ssa t r a c e s o f le a d -- ord in ary kerosen e o il .If q 30 t h a t t h e e ff e c t o f in cr e a s in g t h e d an ger th r ou gh t h e u se 0 ; e t h yl p e t r o l does r a t h e r depend on b ein g q u it e ce r t a in t h a t th e lea d which you fin d as p r esen t in th e used cran k ca se o i l was p r e se n t in a form wh ich cou ld be a b sor b ed th r ou gh t h e ; sk in ? -- 1 do n o t t h in k s o , i f you sa y: Am 1 s u r e t h a t i t was ,t.etn a, t r i - e t h y l and n ot t h e o t h e r , I would n ot sa y t h a t , WS v s. \ y 'V'* 29 Dr co p ia n e VV ?=;*"^2 ''S^Tr :`M b eca u se X P ar e n o r ig h t t o -assume t h a t i t chan ge t o lead^ tlfl tetr a -eth yl. - q Have you e ve r t r ie d t h e e ff e c t o f t h e d ecom p osition o f lea d ? -- Ve s . X have had a P o t t le con ta in in g about 10 c c . o f le a d p e t r o l, and ab ou t g p e r ce n t becom es JAtJsj ", r ' vJI| t r i - e t h y l ca r b o n a t e, when exp osed t o t h e a ir * l There a r e a co n sid e r a b le number o f exp er im en ts t h a t I h ave n ot r ecor d ed in t h e memorandum su b m itted - q u it e a la r g e number; p a r t ic u la r ly on fo o d ; b u t X d id n ot t h in i: i t was r ig h t t o p u b lis h t h e s e * in regard t o t h e p a r t ic u la r experim en t you have ju s t ash ed me a b o u t , t h e r e i s one h e r e . The m a t e r ia l was p ut in an open gla s s b o t t le and th e r esid u e amounted t o about e igh t p er cen t o f a wh ite powder. I Im agine t h a t t h a t i s a m a t e r ia l which i s t r i- e t h y l ca r b on a te, and o b vio u s ly i t was n ot v o l a t i l e , b eca u se i f i t had been v o l a t i l e , i t would n ot h ave been t h e r e * Then x have a sam ple wh ich X have had fo r th r ee ye a r s in a cor xed ' I bottle*;V-Wh at i s l e f t b eh in d i s a ye llo w is h w h it e powd er, TOy ' e a s i l y i f you give i t tim e, and you ge t l e f t beh in d a wh ite powder wh ich , a cco r d in g t o worh t h a t was don in I g yd , is ju s t as dangerous as lea d t e t r a - e t h y l. q The p o in t x wan t t o b r in g ou t i s t h i s : t h a t you d id n ot : ' , '' a c t u a lly i s o la t e from th e cr an k ca ge o i l th e le a d in ":fe th e form o f le a d t e t r a - e t h y l? -- Ho. . . Q Nor a s le a d t r i - e t h y l ? - -- No -- b y t h e method o f d iffe r e n c e s ; PRd^ g330R,l)rX(a: ,l^ d id o ^ t Ve u ja w e e t - :t h ^ t * ^ * ^ '- *- **^ * -***  *ekj-a- Wiyx q Have you e ve r t r ie d t h e e ff e c t o f t h e d ecom p osition o f le a d ? -- Ye e . I Have h ad a P o t t le co n t a in in g abou t 10 c c . o f le a d p e t r o l, and ab ou t g p e r ce n t becom es t r l - e t h y l ca r b o n a t e, when exp osed t o t h e a i r . i fh er e a r e a con sid er a b le number o f exp erim en ts t h a t X h ave n ot r ecor d ed in t h e memorandum su b m itted - q u it e a la r ge number; p a r t ic u la r ly on food ; b u t X d id n ot t h in k i t was r ig h t t o p u b lis h t h e s e . In regard t o th e p a r t ic u la r experim en t you have ju s t ash ed me a b o u t , t h e r e i s one h e r e . The m a t e r ia l was put in an open gla s s b o t t le and th e r esid u e amounted t o about e igh t p er cen t of a w h it e powder, x Im agine j t h a t t h a t i s a m a t e r ia l which i s t r l- e t h y l ca r b on a te, and o b vio u s ly i t was n ot v o l a t i l e , b eca u se i f i t had been v o l a t i l e , i t would n ot h ave been t h e r e . Then X h ave a sam ple which I have had fo r th r ee ye a r s in a cor ked f- b o t t l e . What i s l e f t b eh in d i s a ye llo w is h wh it e powder, showing t h a t led d t e t r a - e t h y l can g e t away q u it e e a a ily i f you give i t tim e, and you g e t l e f t b eh in d a wh ite '' ** . ' . powder wh ich , a cco r d in g t o work t h a t was don e in 1S76 , is ju s t as dangerous as lea d t e t r a - e t h y l. q th e p oin t x want t o b r in g out is t h is : t h a t you d id n ot a c t u a lly is o la t e from t h e cr an k ca s e o i l th e le a d in t h e form o f le a d t e t r a - e t h y l? -- - Ho* . q Nor as le a d t r i- e t h y l? Ho -- by t h e method o f d i f f e r e n c e s ^ PROVES30H DIXON: l9Bou do n ot s u gge s t t h a t t h e s e two m ech an ics whom you exam in ed showed an y s ig n s o f le a d p o iso n in g? -- Hot t h e lig h t e s t . q A ll th ese fin d in gs were r e a lly on ly p h ysio lo gica l? ^ -- i t was m er ely a r eco r d o f a m ed ica l exa m in a t ion , nothing* m or e, 29 Dr Coplans ' -J q d o you know t h e amount o f le a d t h a t a d o ct o r m ight p r a s c r ib e t ---- W e ll, i h ave been p u zzle d f o r some months to fin d ou t. q What i s t h e o f f i c i a l a m o u n t ?---- I h ave h ea r d t h a t in d ys e n t e r y t h ey would g ive 100 m illigr a m s so many tim es a day* I t a in *, a cco r d in g t o t h e gr een b ook, 800 m illigr a m can h e given e ig h t tim es a day and n o t h in g h appen s; h u t i f you d is t r ib u t e t h a t o ver th r ee o r fo u r m onths, ; two o r t h r e e tim es a d a y, you would no lo n g e r h ave a ^ p a tien t. 0 You t h in k i t I s a q u e st io n o f a b so r p t io n ? -- i t t e a . qu estion o f slown ess. 0, i f you took a q u ie t t e s t , you m igh t n ot g e t much a b s o r p t io n ? ---- q u it e* q Would you a gr e e t h a t t h e r e i s give n in t h e B r it is h Pharm acopeia a s a d ose o f lead a ce t a t e about 3 0 c m illigr a m s ? -- w e ll, s i r , you know. , q Som ething o f t h a t k in d I s give n . -- You w i l l a gr ee t h a t ; ; ' I t is im p ossible to sa y what i s a dose in th ese oa ses. . q I su ggested th e B r lt ls h rIharm acopela becau se th ey g e n e r a lly g iv e th e minimum d o s e ,s o t o sp ea k , which can n ot ,; under any con d ition s produce e v il e ffe c t s . -- w e n , th e t o x ic o lo g is t s say I t is alm ost im p ossible to say what th e ; Js^ lim it I s a t wh ich le a d can b e give n in a s in g le d ose. Is not that so? S ir wic WILLCOX; That i s q u it e r ig h t * PB0PS330R DUOS: There a r e o t h e r so u r ces o f le a d r p o is o n in g to fin d ou t. 0 What i s t h e o f f i c i a l amount? -- ~ I h ave h ea r d t h a t In d ysen t er y t h ey would g iv e 100 m illigr a m s so many tim e -.i i i a d a y. I t h in k , a cco r d in g t o t h e gr een b o o k, 300 m illigr a m i can he given e igh t tim e a day and n ot h in g h appen s; . JL h u t i f you d is t r ib u t e t h a t o ve r t h r ee o r fo u r months, two o r t h r e e tim es a d a y, you would no lo n g e r h ave a p atien t* \ Q Tou t h in k i t i s a q u est ion o f a b so r p t io n ? - -- i t i s a ^ qu estion o f slown ess. / h- $ I f you took a q u ick t e s t , you m igh t n o t g e t much absorption ? -- * q u ite. 4 $ would you a gr ee t h a t t h er e i s give n In th e B r it is h i Pharm acopeia a s a d ose o f lead a ce t a t e about 30 c m illigr a m s ? ---- w e n , s i r , you know* $ Som ething o f t h a t kin d i s give n . -- you w i l l a gr ee t h a t i t is im p ossible to say what i s a does in th ese ca se s. ; a X su ggested th e B r it is h Pharm acopeia b ecau se th ey g e n e r a lly g iv e th e minimum d o s e ,s o t o sp ea k, which can n ot under ary con d ition s produce e v il e ffe c t s . -- w e n , th e t o x ic o lo g is t s say i t is alm ost im p ossible t o say what th e ; lim it i s a t wh ich le a d can b e g ive n in a s in g le d o se. . > Is not that so? S ir wii w i i l o o x ; Th at i s ^ u i t e r ig h t * 4 PR0P3330H blXOB* Th ere a r e o t h e r so u r ces o f le a d r p o is o n in g 4 b esid es eth yl l e a d ? O h yes* ft i s yo u r p o in t r a t h e r * i f I can g e t i t - t h a t i t i s t h e accu m u lated e ff e c t o f p o iso n in g from a l l so u r ce s wh ich i s d etr im en ta l? -- That i s so . 30 f V v ~j \ ..t -- ,'.v , Dr copian q Su p posin g t h a t p a in t va r a made w it h z in c , an a t h ey u sed o n ly alum- and so on , go t h a t a l l t h e se le a d h a za r d s were d im in ish ed down t o t h e e t h y l p e t r o l th en t h e d a n ger o f u sin g e t h yl p e t r o l must h e com p letely n e g lig ib le ? ---- X would n ot adm it t h a t - n ot q u it e liKe t h a t , q That i s m ost e xt r a o r d in a r y. What I s t h e p r in c ip a l , -ZiZ'M-t ' 'I d iffer en ce between carbon ic oxide p oison in g and lea d i-y p o iso n in g? --- I u n d er stan d th e n a em a t o io gie t s sa y t h i s ~~~~M 0". x did ' not mean t h e symptoms; b u t * su p p osin g you are p oison ed_;). i$s$ with one o r o t h e r , what ie th e p r in cip a l d iffe r e n ce ? ; ---- Carbon iacn oxlde p o iso n in g i s a cu t e , and le a d p o is o n ln g i s a slow in s id io u s t h in g and m igh t come on f i v e ye a r s la t e r * Q q u it e . - -- They a r e n ot of th e same o r d e r *o r th ou gh t even , q Do you t h in h i f you tooh a m illigr a m o f le a d e ver y day you m igh t g e t p oison ed in f i v e y e a r s , a cco r d in g t o someone who is quoted as an a u th o r it y? On e m illig r a ^ a d a y is ce r t a in t o , produce p oison in g in a month, n ot m fiv e yea r s? - ^ A n y a s ', b u t i t i s m erely on som ebod y.else o a u t h o r it y. -- 1 q u ite agree* q you h a ve made n o exp er im en t s on t h a t ? --- Hone a t a l l * I a sh t h a t th e experim en ts sh ou ld be talien on in d u s t r ia l Kn owledge. - q m e Am erican r e p o r t o f J a n u a r y 1926 sa ys t h a t t h e d r ive r s o f ca r s u s in g e t h yl p e t r o l showed no s ig n s o f p o is o n in g - none o f them showed a r y s ign s o f p oison in g; a f t e r two y e a r s . , 'Z-i`'- ---- x sh o u ld th in K t h e d r iv e r o f a ca r i s t h e le a s t l i x e l y t o be in ju red * q>= q u it e s o ; le ce e p t t h a t , x have t h r e e p o in t s x wan t t o p u t v-- Wit ICQ d im in ish ed down t o t h e e t h yl p e t r o l, th en t h e d a n ger o f u s in g e t h yl p e t r o l hist h e com p letely n e g lig ib le ? 1 would n ot ad m it t h a t - n ot q u it e li&e t h a t * q That i s m ost e xt r a o r d in a r y* What i s t h e p r in c ip a l ,: d iffe r e n c e between ca r b o n ic o xid e p o is o n in g and le a d . `J i , 1 -V ."f p o iso n in g? ---- I u n d er stan d t h e h a e m a t o io gie t s sa y t h i s -- -- q I d id n ot mean t h e symptoms: b u t su p p osin g you are p oison ed "I with one o r o t h e r , what i s th e p r in cip a l d iffe r e n ce ? v ; ---- Carbon in oioxlde p o iso n in g i s a c u t e , and le a d p o is o n in g i s a slow in s id io u s t h in g and m igh t come on f i v e ye a r s la t e r ` ;; ' ` q q u it e . -- They a r e n ot o f th e same o r d er , o r th ou gh t even* q Do you thirds: i f you tooK a m illigr a m o f le a d e ver y day you v ' 'V m igh t g e t p oison ed in f i v e ye a r , a cco r d in g t o someone who la quoted as an a u t h o r it y? / O n e m illig r a ^ a d a y i s ce r t a in t o vi p rod u ce p o iso n in g In a m on th, n ot in fiv e yea n s? --/ Ah yasV % ~-------- -------- --------- --------------------------------------------b u t i t . I s m erely on somebody e ls e * a u t h o r it y* -Hf: : X -- X q u ite agree* ' q You h ave made no exp er im en ts on t h a t ? ---- Hone a t a l l * X as3c t h a t t h e exp er im en ts sh ou ld be tafeen on I n d u s t r ia l Kn owledge. ** .. q The Am erican r e p o r t of J a n u a r y 1926 s a ys t h a t t h e d r iv e r s o f o a r s u s in g e t h yl p t r e a showed no s ig n s o f p o is o n in g - none o f them showed an y s i&is o f p o is o n in g a f t e r two y e a r s . I sh ou ld thinK th e d r iv e r of a ca r i s th e le a s t life e ly t o be in ju red * . . , q q u it e s o j Xomeept t h a t * X h ave t h r e e p o in t s X wan t t o p u t t o yo u , and t h e secon d p o in t i s t h is : The em p loyees in ga r a ge s h a n d lin g an d r e p a ir in g a u tom ob iles may show evid en ce of lea d ed a b sor p tion in th e s t o o ls . That you ; would agr ee to? Yes* Dr co plans q The men from yo u r ga r a ge showed i t ? -- Ye s . q But d id I t n ot o ccu r alm ost e q u a lly In a l l ga r a ge s , wh eth er t h e y u sed e t h y l o r n o t , where t h e same co n d it io n s o b t a in ed ? ---- bo n ot t h e y sa y: in s lig h t e r amounts? q Ye s , t h e y do; b u t t h e a n a lys e s show a n e g lig ib le d iffe r e n c e in t h e ca se o f e t h y l. -- They show s lig h t ly more in th e case o f e t h yl ga r a ge s, q Then t h e t h ir d p o in t i s t h is : in th e r e gio n s in wh ich t h e e t h y l p e t r o l was u sed t o a g r e a t e xt e n t as m otor fu e l, fo r between two and th r ee years^ ,th ere has n ever been a ease o f recogn ised lea d poison in g? -- Of cou r se t h er e i s a r e s e r va t io n t h e r e : th ey m ight r efu se to r ecogn ise i t . q Ye s , b u t a cce p t in g t h a t t h ose p eo p le a r e r ea son a b ly h o n e s t ? ---- V e il, s i r , X do n ot mow.- The r ea son I sa y t h a t i s t h is : I u n d er stan d from Dr Thomas O live r - who i s a ls o r ea so n a b ly h on est - t h a t t h e o n ly way o f fin d in g out t h a t people a r e b ein g poison ed by lea d is in r ega r d t o th e women: t h e r e i s an u n u su a l number , o f ca s e s o f m is ca r r ia ge -* o f a b s o lu t e a b o r t io n : a lt h o u gh none o f th e men showed i t , Dr O live r p o in t e d ou t t h a t i t was t h e women who gave t h e f i r s t s ig n , n ot th e men; and t h a t ig what - with d e fe r e n ce - we ough t t o b e a r in m in d, i t i s n ot a qu estion of h on esty. Dr Ooplana. q> Yo u h o v e n o t a n y f a c t a t h a t y o u c a n g i v e u a a b o u t t h i s a b o r t i o n , h a v e y o u ? <-- * Ap a r t fro m O l i v e r 1a p u b l i s h e d w o rics ? $ Bu t you a re s p e ak in g o f e th y l p e tro l? -- - Ye a , There i a Dr ? l i m who c a r r ie d o u t th e w oric. Q But did Dr Flin a use e th y l p e tro l? Ye a , Q, Or l e a d e t h y l -- i n t h o s e e x p e r i m e n t s t o w h ic h y o u a r e r e fe r r i n g ? -- Ks d i d a num be r: n o t -o n ly w i t h le a d e t h y l | ' c o n c e n t r a t e d 9, b u t a l s o w i t h a th o u s a n d t o o n e m i x t u r e , Vi I th in h he to o x r e a lly 1300 to one -- some u s e bo th: but we w i l l aay i t w as 1 ,0 0 0 t o o n e , g a v e i t s p e c i f i c woric ;? t o d o , and h i s w o rx b e a rs o n t h i s 1 ,0 0 0 to one m i x t u r e , o f w h ich he g iv e s d e t a i l s . These are th e q u e s tio n s th a t he i s a s h e d , and h a show s th e r e t h a t i n re ga rd to a n im a ls o n w h ich th e 1 ,0 0 0 t o o ne m ix tu re w as a p p lie d t o th e s icin a o f a n im a ls , pre gnant go a ts and o th e r s , th e an im als abo rte d and l e a d w as fo u n d i n t h e b o d i e s o f th e f o e t u s e s . He d e f i n i t e l y says 0 0 , ' CHAXBHAH: Th e s e a r e u i&n e x p e r im e n t s ? ---- Ye a ; t h e s ic in a n d i n h a l i n g . He d o e s t h e e x p e r i m e n t s i n d e p e n d e n t l y . Th a t i e | | a p ie c e o f woric c a r r ie d o u t t h a t i s e n t i t l e d t o ju s t a s muoh cre d e n ce a s th e o t h e r , CHAIRMAN; O f c o u r s e t h a t r e p o r t o f D r ? l i n n i s b e fo r e u a , PB0 S? DIXOH: I h a v e a n o t h e r q u e s t i o n t o a s x ? *-- ' Th e re w as a ^ q u e s t i o n t h a t y o u as ice d b e fo r e t h a t ,X d i d n o t g i v e s u f f i c l e ' answer to . CHAIRMAN: I t w as t h i s q u e s t i o n : t h a t a l t h o u g h t h o s e men had be e n fo r two o r th re e y e a r s i n th e n e igh b o u rh o o d o f m o to rs U3 in g t h i s m a te r ia l th e y had d is co v e re d no o a s e s o f damage? r ^ . ---- And my a n s w e r w a s . i n r e g a r d t o a n i m a l s : t h a t t h e r e w a s Dr ?lin n who o a rrle d o u t th e woric. q, Bu t d i d D r P l i n n u s e fc t h y l p e t r o l ? ----- Ye n , ' q Or le a d e t h y l -- l a th o s e e x p e rim e n ts to w hich yo u a re Vviv-y > r e fe r r i n g ? -- - He d i d a n um be r: n o t o n l y w i t h l e a d e t h y l co n ce n trate d , but also w ith a thousand to one m ixtu re , I t h in s he to o * r e a lly 1300 to one -- some u s e b o th : but ' we w i l l aay i t w as 1 ,0 0 0 t o o n e . g a v e i t s p e c i f i c w o r* '' t o d o , and h i s w o rx b e a rs o n t h i s 1 ,0 0 0 to one m ix t u r e , o f w h ich he g iv e s d e t a i l s , These are th e q u e s tio a s th a t he i s aoice d, and he shows th e re th a t in re gard to a n im a ls o n ,, " w h ich th e 1 ,0 0 0 t o o ne m ix tu r e w as a p p l i e d t o th e s k i n s o f an im als , pregnant go ats and o th e rs , th e an im als abo rte d and l e a d w as fo u n d i n t h e b o d i e s o f th e f o e t u s e s . He d e f i n i t e l y says so . CHAIRMAN: Th e s e a r e s x l n e x p e r im e n t s ? ---- Ye s ; t h e s k i n a n d i n h a l i n g . He d o e s t h e e x p e r im e n t s i n d e p e n d e n t l y . Th a t i s a p ie ce o f w ork ca rrie d o u t th a t ia e n t it le d to ju s t a s much cre d e n ce a s th e o t h e r . CRAIRMA lil O f c o u r s e t h a t r e p o r t o f D r ? l i n n i o b e fo r e u s , PROP? DIXON: I h a v e -a n o t h e r q u e s t i o n t o a s x ? ----- : Th e re w a s a q u e s t i o n t h a t y o u a s k e d b e fo r e t h a t X d i d n o t g i v e s u f f i c t e 1 answer t o . , ._ ^ . ,> -i 0 HAIRMA Sf: I t w as t h i s q u e s t i o n : t h a t a l t h o u g h t h o s e men had b e e n f o r two o r t h r e e y e a r a i n t h e n e ig h b o u r h o o d o f m o to r s u s in g t h i s m a te r ia l th e y had d is co v e re d no c a s e s o f damage? And my a n s w e r w as i n r e g a r d t o a n i m a l s : t h a t t h e r e w a s | ! e x p e rim e n ta l e v id e n ce t h a t "i t w as d a n ge ro u s i n a s h o r t tim e There was a ls o a th ir d p o in t th a t you co u ld n o t t e l l i n . two y e a r s , . PROP. DIXON; Th a t w as n o t q u i t e my q u e s t i o n , P e o p le w ho U8 e t h y l , p e t r o l do n o t w qsh in i t . Those g o a t s th a t are r e fe r ?2: * u* ?i \4 Dr Co p la n s . to wore w ashed i n th e e th y l p e tr o l? - - - W e ll, I un d e rs tan d t h a t I t w as a p p l i e d to a p a r t o f t h e i r a jc i n , Yo u w i l l h a v e an o p p o r t u n it y o f g e t t i n g i t i n v e r y g r e a t d e t a i l fro m o t h e r w itn e sse s. , % Then a s to y o u r e xp e rim e n ts o n y o u r own a n in : you have s a i d t h a t yo u c o u ld n o t g e t t h e le a d aw ay fro m y o u r a in a g a i n by w ashing i t w ith ke ro se ne ? That i s s o . qi Do y o u t h in ic t h a t t h a t w as b e c a u s e t h e l e a d w as a b s o r b e d unde '& th e s u r fa c e . I mean s u p p o s in g y o u had s cra p e d th e a &in a '\4 l i t t l e : rubbed i t hard w i t h a hard bru s h . D id yo u t r y t h a t ? ` ----- I t r i e d i t w i t h e r o s a n s . '! CHAXRKAS: Ju s t w it h a l i n e n ra g? ---- Ju s t a l i n e n ra g -- w i l l : rubbed w it h cero 3 e na; and t h a t was s im p ly i n co n fo rm ity : w ith what th e y d id . They used so ap as w e ll. PROF. DXXOH: Su p p o s in g y o u u s e d a s o l u t i o n o f l e a d a c e t a t e and p u t t h a t o n t h e a x l n : we -Know p e r f e c t l y w e l l t h a t l e a d a c e t a t e i s n o t abs o rbe d i n th e a icin . That i s an e s t a b lis h e d f a c t ? ----- X t h i n * t h a t i s s o . ;/ $ I f you were to put le a d a c e ta te on the eh in in s o lu tio n and le a v e i t th e re a m in ute , w ould you be a b le to g e t i t o f f b y w as h in g? - -- 1 do n o t n o w , q, n o , y o u w o u ld n o t ? x do n o t n o w . \ q, Yo u g e t some s o r t o f co m po und: some fo rm o f l e a d a c e t a t e : do n o t yo u th in ic s o m e thin g o f t h e Kind may happe n w ith th e l e a d ? ----- The q u e s t i o n w as p u t t o me by t h e Ch a irm a n and X s a id th e n w hat I n e w ; t h a t t h e m a t e r i a l w as f i x e d o n th e BKin: but th e e vid e n ce th a t i t go e s in to th e body i s ; :y overw helm ing. q, Oh y e s : y o u n e e d n o t h a v e s a i d t h a t . I am d e a l i n g w i t h t h i s e x p e r i m e n t ?'----- And is n *> t w itnesses. q The n a s t o y o u r e x p e r im e n t s o n y o u r ow n a n i n : yo u hay s a le t h a t yo u c o u ld n o t. g o t th e le a d aw ay fro m y o u r In a g a i n by w a s h in g i t w i t h a r o s e n e ? ----- Th a t l a s o * q Do y o u t h i n * t h a t t h a t w as b e c a u s e th l e a d w a s a b s o r b e d ur th e s u r fa c e , I mean s u p p o s in g yo u had craped th e in a l i t t l e : rubbed I t hard w ith a hard brush* Did you t r y th at ----- I t r i e d i t w i t h ic e r o a a n s . OHAXRfiAtf: Ju s t w i t h a l i n e n r a g ? - -- Ju s t a l i n e n r a g -- w i l l rubbed w it h Ke ro s e n e : and t h a t was aim p ly i n co n fo nailer w ith, w hat th e y d id * The y u s e d so ap a s w e l l . PROF. DXIOH: Su p p o s i n g y o u u s e d a s o l u t i o n o f l e a d a c e t a t e an p u t t h a t o n t h e ax In : we enow p e r f e c t l y w e l l t h a t l e a d a c e t a t e i a n o t a b s o r b e d i n t h e Kin . That i s in e s t a b l i s h s i fa ct? - -- 1 th in * that ia s o , q I f you were to put le a d a c e ta te on the in in s o lu tio n and le a v e i t th e re a m in ute , w ould you oe a b le to g a t i t o f f b y w a s h i n g ? ----- X do n o t n o w , q Ho , y o u w o u ld n o t? X do n o t now q Yo u g e t soma s o r t - o f co m po und: some fo rm o f l e a d a c e t a t e : do n o t yo u th in ic s o m e th in g o f t h e Kin d may h ap p e n w i t h t h e l e a d ? ----- The q u e s t i o n w as p u t t o raa b y t h e Ch a irm a n and ' I s a id th e n w hat I icnew; t h a t t h e m a t e r i a l w as fi x e d o n th e s xin : but the e vide nce th at i t goes in to th e body i s " o v e r w h e lm in g .... q Oh y e s : y o u n e e d n o t h a v e s a i d t h a t . I am d e a l i n g w i t h t h i s p a r t i c u l a r e x p e r i m e n t ?----- And I s a y t h a t Ke ro s e n e i a n o t e ffic ie n t fo r the purpose, q Yo u draw t h e c o n c l u s i o n t h e r e fo r e t h a t t h e l e a d a c e t a t e i s a b s o r b e d ? -***- Ho t fro m t h a t e x p e r i m e n t . 00183J ... 34 Dr Oo p la n s . S i r R0 3 3 RX R0 3 3 RTSQS: On t h e p u r e l y c h e m i c a l a i d e I w o u ld 1 1 * t o a ajf yome q u a a t io n a .St o fa r r in g to page w he re y o u fi n d o n e p a r t o f 1 0 ,0 0 0 o f l e a d p r e s e n t . Do y o u Know t h e p ro a e a# by w h i d i t h i s w a a c l o n e ? ----- Ho , X do n o t , q Yo u do n o t Know t h e d e t a i l s o f t h a t ? - -- Ho . . . V,;. ; q The n o n th e n e x t page do y o u Know how t h e OV0 0 5 m i l l i g r a m # w ay fo u n d ? ~ By a m e tho d o f h e a t i n g r e fe r r e d - t o i n t h e ' -y4 s| addendum, 2 2 0 - 2> 0 d e gre e s , if- q So i t w o u ld be a b o ve b o i l i n g p o i n t ? ----- Ye a , . ,.y.| q Is 0 0 5 m illigra m s c o r r e c t, o r i s i t , 0 0 > grama? ---- i t y i t .0 0 3 m illigraxau, q Then X want to a a * some q u e s tio n # b e a rin g o n t h i s m e thod v4 i o f d e te rm in in g th e amount o f le a d by a method o f d i ffe r e n c e , 1 I t i s page 10 , I th in * you said th a t you passed the 0 . 0 , 2 , ' t h r o u g h t h e o i l ? ----- i( ay I go b a c * a g a i n , q You. s ay y o u p a s s e d t h e 0 .O .2 , th r o u g h t h e s o l u t i o n ? -- - YitU a i r a cro s s th e 's u r fa c e b u b b lin g , q B u b b lin g th r o u g h th e m a t e r i a l a t 2 2 0 d e g r e e s . Would i t n o t - h a ve b e e n a much more p o te n t-ra o t'io d i f yo u had co n d e n s e d ^ fro m t h e 0 . 0 . 2 , a n y lo a d w h ic h w as p r e s e n t :, i n s t e a d o f m e r e l y t a Ki n g t h a t m e tho d o f d i f f e r e n c e ? ----- O f c o u r s e t h e r e i s + a l i m i t t o t h e am o un t o f w o r* I am e x p e c t e d t o d o , ,,r :^ q Oh , y e a . X w as r e fe r r i n g to t h e co ge ncy o f th e e x p e r im e n ta l m e th o d . Yo u c o u l d n o t i n t e r i c r a t t h i s d i f f e r e n c e s o r o ll as i f you had absorbed the 0 . 0 . 2 , or w hatever i t w as, in c y U \o "U some e x h a u s t , a n d d e te r m in e d t h e l e a d i n t h a t , One c o u l d -y.d r a in th e p o ta s h fr e e fro m le a d , th e n d e te rm in e th e amount o f le a d fro m th e p o ta s h . I t w ould be q u ite a s e a s y a s , .d oin g th e le a d i n th e r e s i d u a l o i l , , and: v e r y .much more t y w h ich t h i s w a s d o n e ? ----- Ho , I do not: - 0 Yo n do n o t n o w t h e d e t a i l # o f t h a t ? ----- Ho . - q The n o n ti w n e x t page do y o u n o w how t h e o'. 0 0 5 m i l l i g r a m s w ay f o u n d ? ----- By a m e tho d o f h e a t i n g r e fe r r e d t o i n t h e \ addendum. 220 - 3 0 d e gre e s . r\r q So i t w o u ld "be a b o v e t o i l i n g p o i n t ? ----- Ye a . \ <aVtfi q I s .0 0 5 m i l l i g r a m s c o r r e c t , o r i s i t .0 0 5 g r a m s ? ----- I t is .0 0 5 m illigram s, _ q Then I want to a a * some o u e s t io n s t e a r i n g on t h i s m e thod ~ o f d e te rm in in g th e amount o f le a d by a method o f d iffe r e n t 3 "'j I t i s page 1 0 . I th in h you said th a t you passed the 0 .0 .2 . \ t h r o u g h t h e o i l ? ----- lay I go b&cx a g a i n , ' 'Yv'S q You say you pa eyed t h e 0 ,0 ,2 . t h r o u gh t h e s o lu t io n ? ---- 2 h a t With a i r a cr o s s t h e s u r fa ce -- b u b b lin g. q Bu b b lin g t h r o u gh sh e m a t e r ia l a t 220 d e g r e e s . Would i t n o t h a ve b e e n a much more p o t e n t m ethod i f yo u had co n d e n s e d fr om t h e 0 ,0 .2 , a n y lo a d w h ich was p r e s e n t , in s t e a d o f m e r e ly t a k i n g t h a t m e tho d o f d i f f e r e n c e ? ----- O f c o u r s e t h e r e i s a li m i t to th e amount o f worx I an e xp e cte d to d o , q Oh , y e a . I w as r e fe r r i n g to t h e co ge n cy o f th e e x p e r im e n t a l, m e th o d . Yo u c o u l d n o t i n t e r p r e t t h i s d i f f e r e n t s ao w e l l as i f you had absorbed the 0 .0 .2 ., or w hatever i t w aa, in - - * some e x h a u s t , a n d d e te r m in e d t h e l e a d i n f r u i t . One c o u l d d r a in th e po tash, fr e e fro m le a d , then, d e te rm in e th e amount o f le a d fro m th e p o ta s h ; I t w ould be q u it a s e a s y a s d o in g th e le a d i n th e r e s i d u a l o i l , and v e r y much more p o t e n t , b e c a u s e t h e n y o u w o u ld n o w t h a t th e l e a d had b e e n a c tu a lly e v a p o r a t e d -- i f i t was v o l a t i l e le a d . At le a s t you w ould nave o b t a in e d p r o o f t h a t th e le a d was v o l a t i l e . CO ` 24 >5 ..' ,. ;*.-V',i: ?4 i. Dr Co p lan a. He ra th e m e tho d o f d i f f e r e n c e s e e m s to be n o t v e r y c o g e n t - >.;i and c e r t a i n ly n o t d ia g n o u tic o f th e s u b s ta n ce th a t you ; Tfe r3 a f t e r ? - -- I t&Ke i t t h a t i t i a v o l a t i l e . As s u m in g i t is s o , the re io one part th a t v o la t ilis e s , I gran t you th a t assum ing you had th e tim e and o p p o rtu n ity you co uld do a l o t / lore, $ ft t t y p o i n t i a t h a t i t w o u ld n o t h a v e te uto n a n y m o re t i m e , />\ Anyho w y o u a g r e e t h a t t h i s i s n o t v e r y c o g e n t t o p ro v e t h a t i t w as le a d t e t r a - e t h y l th -fc came o f f ? -- - I s h o u ld . n o t l i K e to s a y , I do n o t n o w , fh a t i a a o m p a rin g two % m eth ods. ft Oil page 5 o f y o u r own e x p e r i m e n t y o u g i v e t h i s t a b l e o f e v a p o r a t i o n , Whax w as t h e a c t u a l s p i r i t t h a t y o u u s e d , What w as i t s b o i l i n g p o i n t --- t h e same b o i l i n g p o i n t ? Waa i t h i g / v ^ ----- Ye a . Ve r y h i g h , file same b o i l i n g p o i n t i a c o m p a r a t iv e ly hig)^>v. T h is e x p e rim e n t a t 60 d e g re e s Fa h r e n h e it t h e r e i s p r a c t i c a l l y t h e same a s 9 ? d e g r e e s - Fa h r e n h e i t , t h e 3ame r e s u l t :, b u t i t t a x e s a v e r y l o n g tira e iy? The n e v a p o r a t i o n t a r e s H O .d a y s , ft I d a r e s a y , b u t I w a n te d t o Know w hat p e t r o l y o u u s e d . Do y o u Know i t s f i n a l b o i l i n g p o i n t ? ----- x s h o u ld h a v e t o ' re fe r fo r th a t. . ft Was i t t h e o r d i n a r y p e t r o l t h a t i a u s e d i n En g la n d ? ~ -- jru a t the o rd in ary p e tr o l. K o .l. ft Are t h e m e th o d s o f d s t o r m i n a t i o n o f t h e l e a d t h a t y o u u s e d in yo ur own la b o ra to ry when you were e xp e rim e n tin g o n yo ur f arm ^d e e o ribe d i n t h i s do cum e nt? - -- Ye a ; th e y a re de scribe d in ve ry gre at d e ta il. "** **?/?'*v `\ a- " : . .T, a a * ; , - ---- a na*. ti cu as i c a v u i a c n o . A3ainning i t i a 3 0 , t lio re i a o n e p a r t t h a t v o l a t i l i s e s . I g r a n t yo u th a t assum ing you had th e t i d e and o p p o rtu n ity you co uld %i- do a l o t m o rs . >-j" P. My 'jo i n t i s t h a t i t v/ ould n o t h a v e t a x e n a n y m o re tim e * r.\~ An yh ow yo u a g r e e t i n t t h i s i s n o t v e r y c o g e n t t o p r o v e t h a t i t w as le a d t e t r a -e t .h y l t h a t came o i l ? -- - I s h o u ld n o t l i x -e to a a y . I do n o t xn o w , Th at i s c o m p a r in g <two % m stnods. Cl On page ) o f y o u r own e x p e r i m e n t y o u g i v e t h i s t a b l e o f e v a p o r a t i o n . 'Sh a t w as t h e a c t u a l s p i r i t t h a t y o u u s e d , V What w as i t s b o i l i n g p o i n t --- t h e same b o i l i n g p o i n t ? Was i t h is k ^ * ---- Yo a . Ve ry h i g h . h e sane b o i l i n g p o in t i s co m parative ly h ig lu s This experim ent a t 60 de gre e s Ja h r e n h o i t t h e r e i a p r a c t i c a l l y t h e same a s 97 d e g r e e s - - - y a h r e n h &it, th e same r e s u lt ;: but i t t a x e s a v e r y lo n g t im e , Then e v a p o r a t i o n t a x e s : 1 0 . d a y s . h Q I d a r e s a y , b u t I w an te d t o itnow w hat p e t r o l yo u u s e d , Do y o u x n o v i t s f i n a l b o i l i n g p o i n t ? ----- I s h o u ld h a v e to > re fe r fo r th a t. ., 0' . q Was i t t h e o r d i n a r y p e t r o l t h a t i s u s e d i n E n g l a n d ? ----- Ju s t - the o rdin ary p e tro l, ii o .l. . q Are th e m e thods o f d e te r m in a tio n 0 1 th e le a d th a t yo u u s e d * i n y o u r own l a b o r a t o r y . When y o u w a re e x p e r i m e n t i n g o n y o u r arm^d e s c r i b e d i n t h i s d o c u m e n t ?----- Ye a;; t h e y a r e de scribe d in ve ry gre a t d e ta il. OKAIPMAif: Yo u h a v e d o n e a g o o d d e a l o f e x p e r i m e n t i n g ? ----- Y e s ; and i t w as a v e r y d i f f i c u l t t h i n g t o d o . I t w as a l l vo lun tary w or. H e 0 0 1 8 3 ?,6 5* Dr Oo pIan s . Mr o h a r u k : W it h r e g a r d t o t h e a x i n e x p e r im e n t o n y o u r s e l f , o f ? co u rs e th e method ado pte d w as a l i t t l e ro u gh , and h a y in g re gard t o t h a t yo u w ould n o t a t t a c h v e ry much im p o rtan ce w o uld y o u t o t h e p r e c i s e fi g u r e fo r a d s o rp tio n '- t h a t yo u g o t ? ----- I am g i v i n g tw o p l a c e s o f d e c i m a l s , a s a ro u g h ca lcu la tio n . Q I w ill put i t in an o the r w ay, d o you th in * th a t experim ent than ' r e a lly gave you mere/ a s o r t o f h o lie c/ fcive s tate m e n t ^ t h a t t h e r e w o u ld be a b s o r p t i o n ? ----- I w o u ld n o t l i K e t o s a y - abso rptio n : I say the re is fix a tio n . ^' q we w i l l s a y f i x a t i o n i f y o u l i x e ? ----- Mig h t I s a y a l s o t h a t 1 th e le ad t e t r a -e t h y l i s n o t removed? q w o u ld y o u ;ain d l o o k i n g a t p a ge 3 o f y o u r own e x p e r i m e n t s . The y a r e e x p e r im e n ts d e a l i n g w i t h w a t e r ? ----- Ye s . q I f I un d e rs tan d this^ c o r r e c t ly , yo u had 16 c u b ic ce n tim e tre s o f e th y l p e tr o l and an amount o f w ate r w hich must have been . sm all in regard to th e dim ensions o f the tu b e . It i s on page ^ 3 ? *-- e x p e r im e n t ( a ) , q Ye s , What I am s a y in g i s t h i s : t h a t yo u e m ploye d a p p a r e n tly in th e e xpe rim e nt 15 o ublo ce n tim e tre s o f e th y l p e tr o l? -- 'Ye s ,' ' . q And I s a y t h e am o unt o f w a t e r m us t h a v e be e n s m a l l b e c a u s e t h a t i s l i m i t e d by t h e d i m e n s io n s o f t h e t u b e ? ----- Ye s . q. n y h c w , y o u c o l l e c t e d 3 3 c u b i c c e n t i m e t r e s c f w a t e r ? -- Ye s , Q That i s t o s a y t w i c e a s much w a te r a s y o u to o x o f e t h y l ; p e t r o l ? ----- Ye s , . Q Then h a vin g done t h a t you s t i l l foun d on ly 0 .7 o f a p a r t re ga rd t o t h a t y o u w o uld n o t a t t a c h v e ry much Im p o rta n ce * would you to th e p re c is e fig u r e fo r abs o rp tio n ? th a t yo u g o t ? ----- I am g i v i n g tw o p l a c e s o f d e c i m a l s , a s a ro u g h ca lcu latio n , 0. I w i n p u t i t i n a n o t h e r w a y . Do y o u t h i n K t h a t e x p e rim e n t than ' r e a lly gave you mere/ a s o r t o f c o l l e c t i v e state m e n t t h a t t h e r e w o u ld be a b s o r p t i o n ? ----- I w o u ld n o t l i K e t o s a y abso rptio n : Z say there is fix a tio n , - Q e w i l l s a y f i x a t i o n i f y o u U K e ? ----- Mig h t I s a y a l s o t h a t . th e le ad t e t r a -e t h y l i s n o t removed? *-- Q w ould yo u mind lo o k in g a t page 3 o f yo u r own e xp e rim e n ts . The y a r e e x p e r im e n ts d e a l i n g w i t h w a t e r ? ----- Y e s . ; 0. I f I u n d e r s t a n d t h i s c o r r e c t l y , y o u had 15 c u b i c c e n t i m e t r e s o f e th y l p e tr o l and an amount o f w ate r w hich must have be e n sm all in regard to th e dim ensions o f the tu b e . I t i s on page ; 3 ? -- experim ent ( a ) , v Q Ye s , What I am s a y i n g i s t h i s : t h a t y o u e m plo ye d a p p a r e n t ly : i n th e e xp e rim e n t 15 c u b ic c e n tim e tre s o f e t h y l p e t r o l? -- Ye s , q And I s a y t h e am o unt jo f w a t e r m us t h a v e b e e n s m a l l b e c a u s e t h a t i s l i m i t e d by t h e d i m e n s io n s o f t h e t u b e ? ----- Ye s . q Anyho w , y o u c o l l e c t e d 3 3 c u b i c c e n t i m e t r e s o f w a t e r ? ----- Y e s ,? Q That i s t o s a y t w i c e a s much w a te r a s y o u to o K o f e t h y l p e t r o l ? -- Ye s . . . , A... . Q Then h a v in g clone t h a t y o u s t i l l fo un d o n ly 0 .7 o f a p a rt p e r m i l l i o n o f l e a d i n t h a t w a t e r ? ----- Th a t i s s o . : q 0 .7 o f a p a rt p e r m i lli o n i s n o t r e a l l y o f th e same o rd e r - n o t enorm ously in e xce s s o f th e amount w hich i s som etim es re garde d, X w i l l not say as p e rm is s ib le , be cause I do no t th in K a n y th in g i s re garde d as p e r m is s ib le , b u t a s h a v in g no s e rio u s s ig n ific a n c e in p o tab le w a te r? -- W e n , I should o o i s a a a ^ . . .. \ fl,' !4' ^ Wf su gge st th a t th e lim it i s one hundredth o f a gra in to th e g a llo n -- o* 14 " -r-' . Q Ye s , b u t t j i i s i s o *7m I t i s n o t o f t h e same o r d e r ? . ----- Yo u i l l s e e a n e x p e r im e n t l a t e r o n . I a s coining to i t i n a moment? - - - That was th e i n i t i a l e xperim e nt. Q That i s to say under favo u ra b le circu m s tan ce s you o nly g e t 0 .'? o r a p a r t p e r m i l l i o n , w h ic h i s a f t e r a l l a v e ry s m a ll am o u n t? ----- I t i s o n t h e t h r e s h o l d o f d a n g e r . Q. Ye s , o n t h e t h r e s h o l d i f y o u l i K e , b u t i t i s o n l y a t r a c e ? ----- I t i s s u f f i c i e n t i n p c t a u i e w a t e r t o c a u s e t r o u b l e . Q I am n e t s a y i n g t h a t i t i s n o t -- I am n o t a n a u t h o r i t y o n t h a t -- I am o n ly a s Ki n g w h e th e r i t i s m o re t h a n <v t r a c e ? ' ----- I th in fc t h e q u e s t i o n w as w h e th e r i t w as o n t h e t h r e s h o l d o f danger. Q Ve w i l l assum e i t i s 'q u i t e o n th e t h r e s h o ld , i f y o u l i K e , In y o u r n e x t e x p e rim e n t y o u load t h e same s o r t o f c o n d i t i o n s . The e x p e r im e n t w as made i n 15 c u b i c c e n t i m e t r e s o f e t h y l - and ICO c u b i c c e n t i m e t r e s o f w a t e r ? ----- y e s , Q The re yo u g o t 0 ,6 o f a p a rt pe r m i l l i o n ? -- y e s , 3 Am I r i g h t l y u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h e s e e x p e r im e n ts a s s h o w in g th a t yo u do no t even unde r circu m s ta n ce s o f th a t s o r t , w here th e co n d itio n s - a re a s I have d e s crib e d them -- e xtre m e ly fa v o u r a b le to t h e t a x i n g up o f le a d -- g e t t ^ s enormous q u a n t i t i e s ? ----- Bu t I s a y t h e y w o u ld b e q u i t e s u f f i c i e n t . , Q X am n o t s a y i n g t h a t t h e y w o u ld n o t be s u f f i c i e n t : I am d e a l i n g w i t h a b s o l u t e q u a n t i t i e s . Yo u do n o t g e t e no rm o us T.. ^ a v a n t i t i e ? , -- But you do n o t r e q u ^ e ^ . a o r ffiua q u a n t i t i e s , Q Ye s , o ut t _h i s i s 0 ,7 . I t i s n o t o f th e same o rd e r? ----- Yo n m i l s e e a n e x p e rim e n t l a t e r o n , Q I a n co m in g t o I t i n a m o m e n t ?----- Th a t w as t h e i n i t i a l e xperim e nt. Q That i s to say under fa v o u ra b le circu m s ta n ce s you o n ly ftI- ' :v g e t 0 ,7 o r a part; pe r m i l l i o n , w h ich i s a ft e r a l l a ve ry ^ . y 't s m a ll a m o u n t ?----- I t i s o n t h e t h r e s h o l d o f c la n g e r . Ye s , on th e th re s h o ld i f yo u l i K e , h u t i t i s o n ly a t r a c e ? ----- I t i s s u f f i c i e n t i n p c t a b l e w a t e r t o c a u s e t r o u b l e , . Q I am n o t s a y i n g t h a t i t i s n o t -- I am n o t a n a u t h o r i t y / ;* 'd ; o n t h a t -- I am o n l y a s h i n g w h e th e r i t i s m o re t h a n %t r a c e ? ' h -- I t h i n x t h e q u e s t i o n w as w h e th e r i t w as o n t h e t h r e s h o l d ..-v o f danger, Q V7e w i l l as s u m e i t i s q u i t e o n t h e t h r e s h o l d , i f y o u l i K e , . In yo ur n e xt e xpe rim e nt yo u had th e same s o rt o f c o n d it io n s . ; The e x p e r im e n t w as made i n 15 c u b i c c e n t i m e t r e s o f e t h y l -; and lo o c u b ic ce n tim e tre s o f w a te r? -- ~ Ye s , ' Q Th e re y o u g o t 0 ,6 o f a p a r t p e r m i l l i o n ? ----- Ye s , Q, .m I r i g h t l y u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h e s e e x p e r im e n ts a s s h o w in g th a t you do not even under circu m stan ce s' o f th a t s o r t , w here th e c o n d itio n s a re a s I have d e s crib e d them -- e xtre m e ly - fa v o u r a b l e t o t h e t a x i n g. u p o...f l e a d --- s e t t l e e no rm o us . , ,..->.? q u a n t i t i e s ? ----- - Bu t I s a y t h e y w o u ld be q u i t e s u f f i c i e n t . Q I am n o t s a y i n g t h a t t h e y w o uld n o t be s u f f i c i e n t : I am d e a l i n g w i t h a b s o l u t e q u a n t i t i e s . Yo u do n o t g e t e no rm o us L. q u a n t i t i e s ? ----- But Siou do n o t r e q u i r e e no rm o us q u a n t i t i e s , CJ I Know y o u d o n o t r e q u i r e a n y ; b u t e v e n whe n y o u h a v e r. co n d itio n s w hich are ve ry favo u rab le to th e s o lu tio n o f . le ad , you do not ge t gre at q u a n titie s ? -- I tn in x th e re i s a n o t h e r In t e r p r e t a t i o n fo r w h at y o u care s a y i n g -- w h ic h I w i l l come t o p r e s e n t ly . KE 0018330 38 \L3 21* op Lan , A,' , , \ *\ U. ri * Juf Q Yes, i t you U Xe. Then you filt e r - t h r ou gh sa n d . sand d oes n ot taKe much o u t . I t would n ot be so liK e ly t o = a b s t r a c t from t h e liq u id a s a gr e a t many o t h e r s t h a t were m en tion ed . I f you f i x a s o lu t io n th r ou gh sand you would n o t >1^ e xp e ct much o f t h e ab sor bed su b st a n ce t o be taKen o u t ? ` I am a fr a id I do n ot q u it e o How you r notlwre. Q I have no m otive a t a l l , excep t t o a r r iv e a s fa r a s I can a t an u n d er sta n d in g o f t h e s e exp er im en t s, lih a t I am s a yin g is.. t h is : is i t not a fa ct th a t th e con d ition s th er efor e are not fa vo u r a b le t o t h e rem oval o f lead by a n yth in g th rou gh which you f i l t e r , in oth er words you have got sand in i t ; would you exp ect sand t o remove much lea d ? -- I do n ot exp e ct sand t o remove le a d a t a l l , Q Ver y w e ll: t h a t i s an an swer t o my q u e s t io n . H avin g r ega r d t o t h e ver y sm a ll amount o f lead wh ich you get u n der fa vo u r a b le cir cu m s t a n ce s, when you were t r y in g t o see what i t w i l l t a x e . ' o u t , do you r e a lly th in K t h a t t h e r e i s s e r io u s dan ger o f con tam in ation o f la r ge water su p p lies by such q u a n t it ie s o f lead a s would perhaps be s ca t t e r e d on th e ea r t h and be washed th r ou gh s t r a t a , on sand and o t h er t h i n g s ? ---- i th in K in , con n ection w ith w e lls and p ools o f sh allow su r fa ce water t h e r e would be, becau se you m ight e a s ily ge t a can o f p e t r o l wh ich was in th e n eighbourhood o f t h e se p la ce s , Q You m ight o f cou r se ge t a c a n - fu ll o f s h e e p - d ip ? ---- Yes, but n ot very o ft e n . There a r e n ot a m illio n people u sin g sh eep -d ip in England, but t h e r e a r e a m illio n p eop le u sin g does n ot t a xe su ch out* i t would n ot be so li x e ly t o a b s t r a c t from t h e liq u id a s a gr e a t many o t h e r s t h a t wer e ` '(| m en tion ed* I f you f i x a s o lu t io n th r ou gh sand you would n ot "j exp ect much o f t h e ad sor b ed su b st a n ce t o be t a xe n o u t ? '. ' ' , * ----I am a fr a id I do n ot q u i t e fo l lo w you r m ot ive, '1 \ , Q I have no m otive * t a i l , excep t t o a r r iv e a s fa r a s I can ' *) a t an u n d er sta n d in g o f t h e s e exp er im en ts* What I am s a yin g 1b t h is : is i t not a fa ct th at th e con d ition s th er efor e are not fa vo u r a b le t o t h e rem oval o f lead by a n yth in g th rou gh which you f i l t e r . In o t h.e r words you h ave got sand in ' it ; ' . : i`l would you e xye ct sand t o remove much l e a d ? ---- I do n ot r f e xp e ct sand t o remove lea d a t a l l , \ Q Very w e ll: t h a t i s an an swer t o my q u e s t io n . H avin g r ega r d t o t h e ver y sm a ll amount o f lead wh ich you ge t un der fa vo u r a b le cir cu m s t a n ce s, when you were t r y in g t o see what i t w i l l ta Ke . o u t , do you r e a lly t h in x t h a t t h e r e i s s e r io u s d an ger o f con tam in ation o f la r ge water su p p lies by such Q u a n tities o f lead a s would perh aps be s ca t t e r e d on t h e e a r t h and be washed th rou gh s t r a t a , on sand and o t h er t h in gs ? ---- I t h in x in con n ection w ith wells^ an d p ools o f sh allow s u r fa ce water t h e r e would be, oeoause you m ight e a s ily ge t a can o f p e t r o l wh ich was in th e neighbourhood o f t h e se p la ce s , Q You m ight o f cou r se g e t a c a n - fu ll o f sh eep -d ip ? ---- Yes, but not very o ft e n . There ar e n ot a m illio n people u sin g sh eep -d ip in England, but t h e r e a r e a rail lio n p eop le u sin g m otorcars, . -- Q But on e i s an a ccid e n t u st as'm u ch a s t h e o t h e r , i f t h e w e n was a very sh a llow one and t h e ea r th -wa s ver y porous round i t , s u r e ly a l l Kin ds o f d i r t would f i l t e r in t h e w e n , and th e p resen ce o f i t t h e r e in r e la t io n to th e oth er t h in g ' would be .n e g lig ib le ? --- I t h in x t h e r e is s u ffic ie n t t h e r e top oUlu te a sh allow su r fa ce w e ll. That i s th e an swer, DP co p ia n e . 0, Very w e ll. In an swer t o t h e Chairman and in an swer t o s i r Ch a r les M a r tin , I th tn K yon sa id t h a t yon d id n ot Know wh eth er " t h e r e would h e any co n ce n t r a t io n o f t h e e t h yl p e t r o l a s compare w it h car bon m on oxide, I mean in t h e ca se o f t h e m a t e r ia l - ,,>f coming from an exh a u st in c e r t a in m ach in es. You do n ot Kn o w 'll from you r e xp er ien ce wh eth er t h e r e would he an y ten d en cy fo r th e lead comm unleating with t h e a i r -- n ot t h e d u st -- ;*$ * a s compared w it h t h e car bon m onoxide, a t a give n moment, I nave no evid e n ce, h u t rny im p r ession i s t h a t i t would he t h e o t h e r way about* \ :Oti 0 Assuming t h a t t h e r e was no such co n ce n t r a t io n o f lea d and . : t h e amount o f carh on m onoxide p r esen t was p r ed om in a t t p g., ; Do you th ln K t h e r e i s would be any reaBon fo r p r o h ib it in g t h e u se o f e t h yl p e t r o l? ---- That t h e amount o f carbon monoxide was wh at? - < Q, That t h e amount o f car bon monoxide p r esen t i s su ch t h a t i t s i s p oison ou s p r o p e r t ie s must p red om in ate over t h e amount o f t h e ./i ^ lea d -- in o t h e r words t h a t you would he poisoned by car h on monoxide lon g b e fo r e you would be b y t h e lea d e t h y l, a ga in assum in g t h a t t h a t can be shown t o be t h e ca s e , do you th in K . t h e r e would toe an y r ea son fo r p r o h ib it in g t h e s a le o f t h e ^ e t h yl p e t r o l? ---- I can n ot see any r e la t io n between t h e two problem s* Q w e n , th er e i s an in tixaaie r e la t io n i s not t h e r e , supposing ; t h e lea d and t h e car bon monoxide were, presen t..to the exhaust?-- Yes. q Assuming t h e carbon xaonoxide was t h e r e in an amount wh ich i f . , i t were lea Kin g, and was concentrr^ ^ <^ ea).tl p oison p eop le in ,- Q Very w e ll. In an swer t o t h e Chairman and in an swer t o s i r 7 <t V Ch a r le s M a r tin , I th in K yon sa id t h a t you d id n ot Knew w h e t h e r ^ ij \v t h e r e would h e any co n ce n t r a t io n o f t h e e t h yl p e t r o l a s coiapar - w it h caru on monoxide* I mean in t h e ca se o f t h e m a t e r ia l ,,v coming from an exh a u st in c e r t a in m ach in es. You do n ot Know from you r exp e r ie n ce wh eth er t h e r e would be an y ten d en cy fo r th e lead com m unicating with t h e a i r -- n ot t h e d u st -- : a s coiapared w it h t h e ca r t o n m onoxide, a t a give n moment, I have no e vid e n ce, b u t my im p r ession i s t h a t i t would be 4 t h e o t h e r way a b ou t , ' 't 0 Assuming t h a t t h e r e was no su ch co n ce n t r a t io n o f lea d and t h e amount o f car bon m onoxide p r esen t was p r ed om in a t in g,, Do you th in K t h e r e i s would be an y r ea son fo r p r o h ib it in g t h e u se o f e t h yl p e t r o l? ---- That t h e amount o f car bon m onoxide was wh at? 0, That t h e amount o f car bon monoxide p r esen t i s su ch t h a t it s x a poison ou s p r o p e r t ie s must predom in ate over t h e amount o f t h e lea d -- in o t h e r words t h a t you would be poisoned by car bon monoxide lon g b e fo r e you would be b y t h e lea d e t h y l, a ga in assum in g t h a t t h a t can be shown t o be t h e ca s e , do you t h in K. t h e r e would be any r ea son fo r p r o h ib it in g t h e s a le o f t h e ' e t h yl p e t r o l? -- I can n ot se e any r e la t io n between t h e two ; v problem s, Q W ill, t h e r e i s an in tim a te r e la t io n i s n ot t h e r e . Supposing t h e lea d and t h e car bon monoxide were p r esen t.to the exhaust?-- Ye s . Q; Assuming t h e car bon m onoxide was t h e r e in an amount wh ich i f i t wer e le a Kin g, and was concen^ w^ i?i{<iMcitt.lct p oison p eop le in a sh o r t tim e? ---- Yes. of the lead Q I f t h e r e were no co n ce n t r a t io n / would you co n sid e r t h e lea d problem was s e r io u s a t a i l , or s u ffic ie n t t o .-ju stify any p r o h ib it io n su ch a s we a r e new d e a lin g w i t h ? ---- I can n ot see .any con n ect ion . is . Dr Ooplans, ,9 to " q i r e i l, su p p osin g you h ave a give n volume o f ca r b on monoxide v and a give n volume o f le a d , and suppose t h e car bon monoxide ten d s t o d isa p p ea r : in t h a t ca se th efewou ld be a dan ger a ft e r .. a c e r t a in t im e . But su p p osin g t h e r e i s no a ccu m u la tion lea d and t h e carbon monoxide a ls o t en d s t o d is a p p e a r , and : 9|l 'V** i t s poison ous p r o p e r t ie s be d im in ish ed , th en I a sx you do you # t h ln x t h e r e would be a ju s t i fi c a t i o n fo r t h e p r o h ib it io n .M o f th e lead e t h y l ? ---- I t h in x you a r e p u t t in g t h e q u est io n t o me in t h i s way: i f t h e r e a r e two in ju r ie s go in g on a t on e f tim e and one is a fa t a l in ju r y and th e oth er i s on ly a s lig h t - in ju r y, would you p r o h ib it t h e s lig h t in ju r y? q Yes, i f you liKe t o put i t t h a t w a y ? ---- I sa y on e i s a very s lig h t tilin g and th e oth er is exceed in gly fa t a l, I do not see t h a t one has any r e la t io n to th o th er , q ve ry w e ll, I tax your answer? ---- Carbon monoxide i s so out o f t h e way, . ?-*, CHAIRMAN: You r e a lly mean t h a t t h e o t h e r i s n e g lig ib le ? ---- In t h e cir cu m st a n ces o f t h e car bon monoxlde#I would n ot co n sid er lea d a t a l l in t h e p r esen ce o f car bon m onoxide, ' q That i s my q u e s t io n ? --~ There i s su ch an e xt r a o r d in a r y d iffe r e n ce between th e two. i t is obviou s, c h a i r m a n : That i s e x a c t ly my q u e s t io n . I am gla d t o Know t h a t i t is obvious, s i r fiLU AifW LM CK: I th in x,D r Coplans, th a t you have spent a good de al o f your p ro fe s s io n al l i f e in pu blic h e alth worK? . -- Yes, .. and a give n volume o f le a d , and su ppose t h e car bon m onoxide ten d s t o d isa p p ea r : in t h a t ease th efewcu ld be a dan ger a ft e r a c e r t a in t im e . But su p p osin g t h e r e i s no a ccu m u la tion o f lea d and t h e carbon monoxide a ls o t en d s t o d is a p p e a r , and i t s p oison ou s p r o p e r t ie s be d im in ish ed , th en I a s* you do you t h in * t h e r e would be a ju s t ifica t io n fo r t h e p r o h ib it io n ' o f t h e lead e t h yl? ---- I t h in x you a r e p u t t in g t h e q u e s t io n t o me in t h i s way: i f t h e r e .are two in ju r ie s go in g on a t on e ... tim e and one i s a f a t a l in ju r y and t h e o t h e r i s o n ly a s li g h t in ju r y, would you p r o h ib it t h e s lig h t in ju r y? Q Ye s, i f you li k e t o put i t t h a t w a y ? ---- I sa y on e i s a very s lig h t th in j: and th e oth er is exceed in gly fa t a l, I do not see t h a t one has any r e la t io n to th e o t h e r , 0 Very w e ll, I t a xe yo u r an swer ? ---- car b on m on oxide i s so ou t o f t h e way, CHAIRMAN: You r e a lly mean t h a t t h e o t h e r i s n e g lig ib le ? ---- In t h e cir cu m sta n ces o f t h e car b on m on oxid e,I would n ot con sid er lea d a t a i l in th e p r esen ce o f carbon m onoxide, 0, That i s my q u e s t io n ? ---- Th ere i s su ch an e xt r a o r d in a r y d iffe r e n ce between th e two. i t is obviou s, ciUlRiiAN: That i s e x a c t ly my q u e s t io n , I am gla d t o Know t h a t i t is obvious. vv SiK "WILLIAM-HILLOCK: I t h in x,D r co p la n s , t h a t you h ave sp en t a good d e a l o f you r p r o fe s s io n a l l i f e in p u b lic h e a lt h worK? " ---- Ye s , ....... ' ' . Q I ga t h e r t h a t from you r numerous d e gr e e s ? -- I h ave n ot go t numerous d egr ees, 0, You a r e a n M.D, ? ----Ye s. a I t h in x you a r e ver y in t e r e s t e d in s a n it a r y w o r K? ---- I was . a d vis o r in s a n it a r y worK t o t h e s xp e d it io n a r y F o r ce . I was a d vis in g t h e s a n it a t io n o f t h e secon d Army, ..41 .,/ . , i> i- : . , >: ' ' - , Dr Goplans, Q And you r worx was r e co gn is e d by t h e h on ou rs t h a t h ave been co n fer r ed upon you* You, I ga t h e r , h ave r a t h e r ap proach ed t h e s u b je ct from t h e p u b lic h e a lt h a s p e c t ? ---- e n t ir e ly , Q -is a s a n i t a r i a n ? ---- Q u it e s o , q And a s su ch you t a x e extr em e ca r e -- m e t icu lo u s ca r e in p r o t e ct in g t h e p u b lic h e a lt h ? ---- As i s cu stom a r y, q In regard to th e t o x ic a ct io n o f lea d , th e poison ous e ffe c t depen ds upon how much i s ad sor b ed in t o t h e system ? -- Ye s, I agree. Q And t h e r e fo r e a s r ega r d s t h e in o r ga n ic a s a l t s o f le a d , fo r in sta n ce sugar o f lea d , or lead a ce t a t e , you a gr ee w ith me t h a t t h e r e have oeen ca s e s where an oun ce h as been ta xen and d eath has n ot occu r r ed ? -- That i s so , Q Because t h e p oison has n ot been ab sor b ed ? - -- That i s t r u e* o. You m en tion ed in n you r p ap er p r o fe s s o r Bia ir -Be ii @ wor x, in t h e u se o f lea d in ch e m is t r y^ ---- Yes. Q S h a ll l q u ote what i s t h e d ose o f le a d , or do you r e c o lle c t it ? -- i t is rath er h igh . Q You w i l l a gr e e i f I put i t ? ---- I w i l l a cce p t wh at you s a y. Q in t h e c o llo i d a l lea d ------- >That I s n ot t h i a Kind o f lea d at a ll, Q No. I mean t h e c o llo i d a l lea d wh ich i s g ivinen cKasn caerh a lf p er cen t s o lu t io n ? - -- Ye s . ' Q, And an a ve r a ge d ose i s 10 c c . Th at would be 6 0 m illigr a m s ? -- I t has unexpected fa t a l r e s u lt s a t tim es? Yog Q J pCl a gr e e t h a t in t h e t r ea t m en t o f ca n cer 60 m illigr a m s o f lead i s g i v e n ? ---- Of c o llo id a l Lead? t h e s u b je ct from t h e p u b lic h e a lt h a s p e ct ? -- E n t ir e ly* Q As a s a n i t a r i a n ? ---- Q u it e s o . Q And a s su ch you tax extr em e ca r e -- m et icu lo u s ca r e in p r o t e ct in g t h e p u b lic h e a lt h ? ---- As i s cu stom a r y, Q In regard t o th e t o x ic a ct io n o f .lead,, th e poison ous e ffe c t 1 depen ds upon how much i s aosorbeci in t o t h e s y s t e m ? Ye s , I agree, Q And t h e r e fo r e a s r ega r d s t h e in o r g a n ic * s a l t s o f le a d , fo r in sta n ce sugar o f lea d , or lead a ce t a te , you agree w ith me t h a t t h e r e have oeen ca s e s where an oun ce h as been taKen and d ea t h has n ot o ccu r r ed ? ----That i s so , q Because t h e p oison has n ot been ab sor bed ? - -- That i s t r u e , q You m en tion ed in n you r p ap er p r o fe s s o r B l a i r - B e i l ' s worK, in t h e u se o f lea d in ch em istr y? -- Yes* Q Sh a ll i q u ote what i s t h e dose o f le a d , or do you r e c o lle c t i t ? ---- i t i s r a t h e r h igh , q You w i l l a gr e e i f I put i t ? ---- I w i l l a cce p t wh at you s a y, q In t h e c o l lo i d a l l e a d ------- That i s n ot t h in 'Kind o f lea d at a ll, in cancer q Ho, I mean t h e c o llo id a l lea d wh ich i s give n / J s a h all* p er ce n t s o lu t io n ? ---- Ye s , q And an a ve r a ge d ose i s 10 co ,,, That would be 5 0 m illigr a m s?.*^ ---- I t h a s u n exp ected f a t a l r e s u lt s a t t im es? - ... > .* q a gr ee t h a t in th e treatm en t o f can cer 50 m illigr a m s o f lea d i s give n ? ---- Of c o llo i d a l le a d ? q Yes; and som etim es a s you s a y, w it h t o x ic r e s u lt s ? -- Ye s , q would you r ega r d lead a s a cu m u la t ive p oison ? ---- prom o n e 's in d u st r ia l experien ce i t is so, i t is a se lf-e vid e n t p rop osition , q Do you co n s id e r i t ha i s one o f t h e b e s t exam ples we Know o f? Q L8 . Hr c o p la n s . -- As a slow cu m u la tive p oison ? q ye s, A lead worxer fo r In sta n ce has lead stored in h is system , and th en becomes e n t ir e ly fr e e from e xce ss o f le a d : how lo n g would i t be b e fo r e t h e lea d would be elim in a t ed ---- You m igh t sa y i t m igh t b e ye a r s a ft e r * I t m igh t go on fo r ye a r s * Q And i t was t h a t a s p e ct o f le a d wh ich in flu e n ce d you in yo u r d worx? -- Qu ite, d q With r egard t o carbon m onoxide, su pp osin g a p er son ab sor b s > car bon m on oxide from exh a u st ga s e s in a ga r a ge : a s you Know t h e car b on monoxide com bin es w it h t h e human b lood *-- now lo n g / ; would i t be b efo r e t h a t carbon monoxide were e lim in a t e d , su p p osin g t h e p erson wen t ou t in t o t h e open a ir ? ---- a q u e s t io i o f m inutes or h ou r s. Q S e ve r a l h o u r s, I mean e lim in a t e d from t h e b lood ? ---- Anyhow 1 mean Qu icKly -- a q u e s t io n o f d a ys a s compared w it h y e a r s , Q A q u e s t io n o f a cou p le o f d a ys, two or t h r e e d a y s ? ---- Ye s , we w ill say th a t. "> . '" Q "When t h e p e t r o l e t h y l s p i r i t i s u sed a c e r t a in amount o f .sr in o r g a n ic lea d i s p rod u ced ? -- Ye s , q Could you t e l l me wh at t h e compound o f lea d would be in :- the dust? -- 60 p er cen t I should t h in x would be brom ide, Q The p o in t I wan t i s t h i s : i s t h a t compound o f le a d s o lu b le or in solu b le in water? sr ' -- solu b le. Q I t a k e i t t h a t you would r ega r d t h a t compound o f lea d a s q Yea, A lead wor xer fo r in s t a n ce lia s lea d i s t o r e d I n ills system , and t h en becom es e n t ir e ly fr e e from e xce s s o f ' `y'M le a d : how lo n g would I t be b e fo r e t h e lea d would be e lim in a t e d ' ---- You m igh t sa y i t m igh t be ye a r s a f t e r , i t m igh t go on fo r ; | years, V Q And i t was t h a t a s p e ct o f lea d wh ich in flu e n ce d you in yo u r worx? -- Qu ite. q With r egar d t o carbon m onoxide, supposing: a p er son a b sor b s ' car b on m onoxide from exh a u st ga s e s in a ga r a ge : a s you Know t h e car bon monoxide com bin es w it h t h e human b lood y--How lo n g -> would i t be b efo r e t h a t carbon monoxide were e lim in a t e d , su pp osin g t h e person went ou t in t o t h e open a ir ? -- a Q u e st io n ! o f m inutes or h ou r s, ' Q S e ve r a l h o u r s. I mean e lim in a t e d from t h e b lood ? -- Anyhow I mean Qu icKly -- a q u e s t io n o f d a ys a s compared w it h y e a r s . Q, A q u e s t io n o f a cou p le o f d a ys, two or t h r e e d a y s ? ---- Ye s, we w ill say th a t, Q hen t h e p e t r o l e t h yl s p i r i t i s u sed a c e r t a in amount o f in o r ga n ic lea d i s p rod u ced ? -- Ye s , q co u ld you t e l l me what t h e compound o f lea d would be in ; the dust? -- - SO p er ce n t I sh ou ld t h ln h would be br om id e, r\ , ; q The p o in t i wan t i s t h i s : i s t h a t compound o f le a d s o lu b le or in solu b le in water? ..,,-- s o lu b le ,.............. . . q I ta Ke i t t h a t you wou ld r ega r d t h a t compound o f lea d a s - b ein g produced by t h e u se o f lead ie t r a - e t h y l -- you would r egard i t a s one o f t h e c h ie f r is k s o f th e con t a m in a t ion o f w a t er s u p p ly ? ---- Un d ou bted ly, One o f th e ch ie f r is x s o f ordin ary d u st, not o f water, "-'fcA^ q l was d e a lin g w it h w a t e r s u p p lie s ? JTjtO, , Dr Cop la n s, ----Ah, I do n ot Know, 0, The p o in t was t h i s : i f you h ave lea d brom ide d u st on o t h e r o a d ;,. I do n ot see much d an ger in t h a t . I d id not son sld er th at p rop osition a t a l l . t k 0 You m en tion ed t h e p o llu t io n o f sh a llo w w e lls ? - - - - X was t h in k in g o f t h e p o llu t io n o f sh a llo w w e n s from p e t r o l d i r e c t , and from o i l b ein g poured down. You do n ot r e q u ir e an y s p e c ia l exp er im en t a l worK t o prove t h a t lead bromide can be a sou r ce o f wa ter con t a m in a t io n , b ecau se i t i s Known t h a t lea d i s s o lu b le in w a t e r , but what we do n ot Know i s what lead petroK w i ll do provided i t i s allowed ^ .. t o d r y in t h e s o i l . Th at was t h e o b je c t o f t h o s e exp er im en t s, I th in K i t i s proved beyond a i l 11' doubt t h a t even in t h r e e fe e t o f sand i t i s n ot Q The p o in t was t h i s : i f you h ave lea d brom ide d u s t on t h e r o a d ?T. I do n ot se e much d an ger in t h a t . I d id not son sld er th a t p rop osition a t a ll . i f-v Q You m en tion ed t h e p o llu t io n o f sh a llow w e lls ? ----X was t h in k in g o f t h e p o llu t io n o f sh allow w e lls from p e t r o l d i r e c t , and from, o i l b ein g poured down. You do n o t r e q u ir e an y s p e c ia l exp er im en t a l worK r t o prove t h a t lead brom ide can be a sou r ce o f wa ter con t a m in a t io n , b ecau se i t i s Known t h a t lea d i s s o lu b le in w a t e r , but wh at we do n ot Know i s what lead p e t r o l w i ll do provided i t i s allowed . t o d ry in t h e s o i l . Th at was t h e o b je c t o f t h o s e exp er im en t s. I th in ic i t i s proved beyond a l l doubt t h a t even in t h r e e fe e t o f sand i t i s n ot removed o r d e s t r o ye d . K* 0018342 43a XI Dr Co pian e w. Q I was r a t h e r su r p r is e d t h a t you d id n ot b r in g ou t th e p o in t o f th e lo a d brom ide d is s o lvin g in water and b ein g con veyed by th e underground water ch a n n els, and p o llu t in g sh allow - w e l l s . ---- yrora an exp er im en ts 1 p o in t o f view I do n ot th in K X oan e s t a b lis h a n yth in g o t h e r than what you can 1 im agin e fo r yo u r s e lve s -Kn owin g t h a t sd brom ide i s f a i r l y fr e e ly solu b le in water* - Q x>o you t h in k t h a t i s a p o s s ib le cau se o f p o llu t io n ? , ---- I sh ou ld t h in k so . X have n ever con sid er ed i t a t a ll* I am t h in k in g more o f a ccid e n t -or n d e sign in p o llu t in g the w ell, a In you r experim en ts with sand you u sed , I t h in k , o i l co n t a in in g le a d e t h y l ? ---- Ye s . Hot h in g h a s been u sed in t h e exp er im en ts e xce p t m a t e r ia l wh ich was s u p p lie d t o me by The Resea r ch As s o cia t io n . Q, Lead e t h yl i s e a s i l y s o l u b l e ? ---- Ye s . 0, Th er efo r e do you n ot . t h in k' t h a t i t would s t ic k t o t h e o i l r a t h e r t h a n go elsew h er e? -- The r e s u lt p r o ves t h a t i t go es in t o t h e w a t e r . I im agin e what happen s i s some ch er cieo- ,, p h ys ic a l ch an ge in which you g e t a t h in film o f o i l on t h e su rface* q some go es in t o t h e w a t e r ? ---- 3 oma goes I n t o th e w a t e r ; ; experim en ts prove t h a t i t is so. Q, As 2Sr Chapman p o in t e d o u t , n o t a l l o f i t ? -- i f i t went up t o 15 C0 c e . , i t would t a k e a lo n g t im e. Q You d id n o t g e t a l l o f i t ? ---- X d id n ot in t en d t o . 0V I s u gge s t t h a t one e xp la n a t io n would be t h a t a l o t o f t h e lea d e t h yl would rem ain in th e o i l which ad h er es t o th e ^s u r fa ce . o f t h e s a n d ? ---- And t h a t th e brom ide m igh t h ave ' ' n c i i o . ---- xperimsn'ss i p o in t or view I do n ot t h in k X oan e s t a b lis h a n yth in g o t h e r th an what you can im agine fo r yo u r s e lve s -kn owin g t h a t uad brom ide i s f a i r l y fr e e ly solu b le in water. q Do you t h in k t h a t i s a p o s s ib le ca u se o f p o llu t io n ? X --- X sh o u ld t h in k s o . x h ave n ever co n sid er e d i t a t a l l * I am t h in k in g more o f a ccid e n t ^or1- d e sign in p o llu t in g the w ell. q In you r experim en ts with sand you u sed , I t h in k , o i l co n t a in in g le a d e t h yl? -- Te a . Hot h in g h a s been u sed in ^ t h e exp er im en ts e xce p t m a t e r ia l wh ich was s u p p lie d t o me . ^ by m e Research Associa tion . $ le a d e t h yl i s e a s i l y s o l u b l e ? ---- Ye s . q Th er efor e do you n ot t h in k t h a t i t would s t ic k to th e o i l r a t h e r t h a n go e lsew h er e? -- The r e s u lt p r o ves t h a t i t goes in t o t h e w a t e r . I im agine what happens i s san e chem iao- p h ys ic a l chan ge in which you g e t a t h in film o f o i l on th e jt ' su rfa ce. q 3ome go es in t o th e w a t e r ? ---- some goes in t o th e w a t e r ; experim en ts prove t h a t i t is so, m ft As lir Chapman p o in t ed o u t , n o t a l l o f i t ? -- i f i t went up t o 1$C0 e ft ., i t would t a k e a. lo n g t im e, *. q You d id n o t g e t a l l o f i t ? ~ I d id n o t in t e n d t o . q 1 su gge s t t h a t one e xp la n a t io n would be t h a t a lo t o f t h e le a d e t h yl would rem ain in th e o i l which a d h er es t o t h e s u r fa ce o f t h e san d? --- And t h a t th e brom id e m igh t h ave : gone in ? q Y e s . ---- I q u it e a gr e e . S ir ROBERT ROBERTSOBS Do you mean brom id e? S ir VILLI AM WILLCOX: I was t a lk in g o f t h e o i l . ---- But t h e o i l i s t h e o i l t a ken from t h e en gin e sump. KE 0Q1S344 ^ n; X2 252* coplan' ' q , And d oss t n s o i l combine w it h le a d b r om id e?----- I co u ld n ot say* I th ir K I hays given you th e e xa ct a n a lys is th er e* Mr PYS: On page 5 o f yo u r exp er im en ts you r?ay t h e le a d - compounds a r e s o lu b le in w a t e r ca lcu la t e d , a s le a d 0 *0$7 p er | cen t b y weigh t* -- - I am sim p ly con cer n ed w it h t h e Ladd , s o lu b le in water * wa Know t o a m a t h em a t ica l n ic e t y whan \`y ca s e s o f le a d p o is o n in g 'o ccu r , and t h e i^ r ce n t a ga i s 0*35 \- l m illigr a m p e r ga llo n t o 0*5 y>; 31r S5b wiLLCOXr would yo u , a s a p u b lic o f f i c i a l , r ega r d t u e p r esen ce o f 2 a 4 in d e t e ct a b le q u a n t it ie s in w a t e r a s y d an ger ou s? -- I sh ou ld t h in * I t was my d u ty t o fin d ou t . why i t was t h e r e . Q Would you r ega r d i t on u n d e s ir a b le ? ---- I sh ou ld wan t t o Know why i t was t h e r e . 3. Would you r ega r d i t a s d an ger ou s to. t h e p u b lic h e a lt h ? - -- Ko, -' . * ' i t depends on t h e q u a n t it y a ga in :X do n ot liK a i t t h e r e and X sh ou ld t r y t o Keep i t down. ' q X s a id , i f you foun d i t in d e t e ct a b le q u a n t it ie s ? -- - W e il, i f one fou n d i t in d e t e ct a b le q u a n t it ie s , one ou gh t t o looK round t o fin d .-pu V . q What li m it would you p er m it in w a t e r ? --- I c e r t a in ly sh ou ld \ n ot H Ke t o p er m it a s much a s a t h ir d o f a m illigr a m * q X th in K you d id q u ote some fi g u r e s . -- one h u n d red th o f a g r a l in a g a llo n : t h a t i s abou t h a lf a m illigram *. q Would you r ega r d t h a t a s n e g l i g i b l e ? ---- le e : T s a y you ar< on th e th r esh old o f danger th en . q you Know t h a t Lon don , Birmingham an d o t h e r b i g c i t i e s do n ot Mr PTE: On p age 5 o f yo u r xperiRen ts you gay t h e le a d ;^ compounds a r e s o lu b le in rater c a lc u la t e ft a s la aft 0 *0 9 7 p e r ; 1 cen t b y w e igh t . -- - I am sim p ly con cer n ed w it h t h e la ftd s o lu b le in water * We know t o a m a t h em a t ica l n ic e t y when ; I e a se s o f le a d p o is o n in g 'o ccu r , anft t h e p e r ce n t a ge I s 0 *3 $ \ m illigram s p er gallon to 0 . 5 . S i r m m i CO Xr w ould y o u , as a p u b lic o f f i c i a l , re gard th e i' p r e s e n c e o f i s a ft i n d e t e c t a b l e q u a n t i t i e s i n `w a t e r a s d an ger ou s? -- I sh ou ld t h in k i t was my d u ty t o fin d ou t why i t was t h e r e * : :yffjMM ft Would you regard, i t os u n d e s ir a b le ? ---- t should wan t t o Know why i t was t h e r e * ft Would you r ega r d i t a s d an ger ou s t o t h e p u b lic h e a lt h ? - -- Ho, i t depends on t n e q u a n t it y a ga in ; 2 do n ot l i k e i t t h e r e and I sh o u ld t r y t o keep i t down* ft X s a id , I f you fou n d I t in d e t e c t a b le q u a n t i t i e s ? ---- W e il, i f one foun d i t in d e t e ct a b le q u a n t it ie s , one ought t o lo o k round t o fin d ou t vn y i t was th er e* , ft What lim it would you p er m it in w a t e r ? --- I c e r t a in ly sh ou ld n ot lik e to perri.it as .such a s a t h ir d o f a m illigr a m , ft I t h in k you d id <5 10 1# some fig u r e s . -- One h u n d red th or a g r a in in a ga llo n ; th a t is about h a lf a m illigram * ft Would you r ega r d t h a t a s n e g l i g i b l e ? ---- Ye s : X s a y you a r e on th e th r esh old o f danger then* ft You know t h a t Lon don, Birmingham an d o t h e r b i g c i t i e s do n ot d e r iv e t h e i r w a t er s u p p lie s from sh a llo w w e l l s ? ---- quit so* ? ft You r a t h e r had in mind cou n tr y d i s t r i c t s where t h e w a t e r i s Ur ive d frem 7/ a lle r when you wer e t a lk in g ab ou t t h e d an ger o f con t a m in a t ion ? ---- Ye s . I was t h in k in g o f my own e xp e r ie n ce in th e Army; we had a v e r y la r g e number o f sh a llo w w e lls , and we had t o sh u t them up b eca u se o f t h e con tam in ation * .. x3 W Dr Coplana 0, where was t h a t ? ---- Th at a s w it h th e 3eeond Army, we pad a gr e a t many lo r r ie s drawing up n ea r w e lls o r water s u p p lie s , and d ep ositin g s p ir it . 0, wou ld you r ega r d t h e p r esen ce o f le a d in f i s h a s o f ..t Im p ortan ce from t h e p o in t o f view o f r i v e r s ? ---- P is h in g 'v r iv e r s ? n o, I do n ot; i do not ca r e a rap abou t fis h , ;f and I do n ot th in k th a t ie of the s lig h t e s t im portance; . b iit when a wh ole fs e s ily h ag t o d r in k w a t e r from one sp ot and t h e r e ie no o t h er so u r ce, I do n o t t h in k t h e se p eop le , should be poison ed by a p assin g ca r or a p assin g lo r r y. Q You a r e aware t h a t t h e London w a t e r su p p ly comes from t h e Thames w a t e r , o r a c e r t a in p r o p o r t io n o f i t ? ---- Th is i s n ot a problem o f r iv e r p o llu t io n . $ X was r e fe r r in g t o t h e con t a m in a t ion o f r iv e r w a t er by le a d . -- I am n ot p r ep a r ed t o d is cu s s t h a t a t a ll * a In you r experien ce of th e evaporation o f the e th yl p e t r o l, you foun d a co n ce n t r a t io n o f over fo u r t e e n tim es? Ye s *' Q Did you do any sh in experim en ts with th ose d iffe r e n t ; s t r e n g t h s ? ---- Ye s , I h ave done a l o t . Q Have you shown t h a t t h e r e i s more le a d e t h y l ab sor bed with. fo u r t e e n tim es t h e con cen t r a t i o n ? ---- Ho. P ir s t o f a l l , i t is d i f f i c u l t t o fin d vo lu n t e e r s . I do n ot care to ash a man t o do som eth in g t h a t i am n ot p r ep a r ed to do m ys e lf. I t is ve r y d i ffi c u lt to ge t o i l a t a l l ------- = q I was n ot c r i t i c i s i n g , I o n ly wan ted t o know; You d id t h e exp er im en t on y o u r s e lf w it h t h e e t h y l p e t r o l ? ---- Ye s . Q Did you "have yo u r u r in e t e s t e d ? ----n o: I d id n o t t h in k v.^ ^ t ^ .r e .; was an y p o in t in t h a t , b eca u se.we know wh at happen s Q, would you r ega r d t h e p r esen ce o f le a d in f i s h a s o f v ; ,. im p or tan ce from t h e p o in t o f vies? o f r i v e r s ? ---- E ie h in g ; r ive r s ? n o, I do n ot; x do not ca r e a rap abou t fis h , . and I do n ot th in k t h a t le o f-t h e s lig h t e s t im portan ce; h u t when a wh ole fa m ily h a s t o d r in k w a t e r from one sp o t g^ | and th er e is no oth er source* I do n ot t h in k th ese p eop le sh ou ld h e p oison ed h y a p a s s in g c a r o r a p a s s in g lo r r y* i-,- You a r e awara t h a t t h e London w a t e r su p p ly comes from t h e ;-;u Thames w a t e r , o r a c e r t a in p r o p o r t io n o f i t ? ---- Th is i s n ot a problem o f r iv e r p o llu t io n . ' v?..* q I was r e fe r r in g t o t h e con ta m in a tion o f r iv e r w a t e r hy l e a d . ---- I am n ot p r ep ar ed t o d is cu s s t iia t a t a ll* Ct In yo u r e xp e r ie n ce o f t h e e va p o r a t io n o f t h e e t h yl p e t r o l, . you foun d a co n ce n t r a t io n o f o ver fo u r t e e n t im es? -- Ye s .' q Did you do any s k in exp er im en ts with t h ose d iffe r e n t s t r e n gt h s ? ---- Ye s , I h ave done a l o t . $ Have you shown t h a t t h e r e i s more le a d e t h y l ab sor bed w it h fo u r t e e n tim es t h e c o n c e n t r a t io n ? ---- h o. F ir s t o f a l l , i t is d i ffi c u lt t o fin d vo lu n t e e r s . I do n ot care to a sk a man t o do som eth in g t h a t X am n ot p r ep a r ed , to do m ys e lf. . I t is ve r y d iffic u lt to ge t o i l a t a l l ------- Q I was n ot o & it ic ls in g , I o n ly wan ted t o know; yo u d id t h e exp er im en t on y o u r s e lf w it h t h e e t h y l p e t r o l? ---- Ye s . q Did you h ave yo u r u r in e T t s s t ed ? -- No: I d id n o t t h in k t h e r e was a r y p o in t in t h a t , b eca u se we know what happen s in r ega r d t o a n im a ls. The whole q u e s t io n was: Would Ker osen e remove i t from t h e sk in ? 0, ", ou r a t h e r ga t h e r e d from t h e amount p u t on and t h e amount brough t o ff t h a t th e d iffe r e n ce w o u ld ------- -.v ---- would rem ain on me. - '-l- K E 001a m s 1*6 Dr Copiane q I am n ot c r i t i c i s i n g , b u t d o n ot you t h in * i t would taw f a i r l y in t e r e s t in g i f you could e s t im a t e t h e le a d in t h e u r in e , ? ;J and p o s s ib ly in th ejpteoes as w e ll, and th en you cou ld g e t d e fin it e p roof n ot on ly t h a t i t had been adsorbed in to the skin hut : '' - b- had been absorbed in t o t h e body? -- w e ll, i s i t ju s t i fi a b le % t o do t h a t on o n e s e lf, knowin g t h e r e is overwhelm ing p r o o f - t h a t i t does occu r in an im alsf '1 $ q, But you d id t h e exp er im en t on y o u r s e lf? -- Ye s, on t h e skin * - $ 1. ' q It would not. h a ve done you any great ham if you had had th ' -. ^ > a n a lys t s made? -- - I do n ot know o f an y Am erican a who h ave d on af i t , and I do n ot see why I sh ou ld do it * q I do n ot su ggest t h a t you sh ou ld ; h u t i f you had had th e a n a ly s is o f t h e e xcr e t a made, was what I was a sk in g* . -- I o n ly wanted t o d eter m in e one p o in t , wh ich was wh eth er i t was removed by kerosen e* q As you know, t h e t o t r a - e t h y l i s a r a p id ly s o lu b le s u b s t a n ce , and I t ie a d m itted t h a t i t i s ab sor b ed v e r y r a p id ly when a p p lie d to the skin ? -- t *9 f very r a p id ly. -- q You h ave no e vid e n ce t h a t t h e e t h y l p e t r o l i s a b sor b ed In a , v e r y r a p id d egr ee? -- Br y i i n n 'h a s done some work on t h e q u e s t io n in exp er im en te w it h a dead m on key, and he h a s come t o th e con clu sio n t h a t th e le a d e t i y l h as e xa ct ly th e same : a ct io n : th e r e i s no d iffe r e n ce * q Bu t y o u agr t h a t t h e W ad In thyX p e t r o l I s a b sor b ed a t a v e r y , ve r y g r e a*t,ly l*ea,s,,sa vrzax e<, t h in le a d t e t r a **e t n yl? ---- Ye a , wit h t h e a d d it io n o f t h e p e t r o l, i t r en d er s t h e / ] a b so r p t io n more d i f f i c u l t . I t h in k when i t i s a p p lie d t o c| ' ' , ' th e su rface o f th e skin , i t d r ie s ve r y r a p id ly, and in th e ,, > - -------- o * UCT* X/{* it e p roof n ot on ly t h a t I t had been absorbed in to the skin hut' had been ab sor b ed in t o t h e body? -- w e ll, i t i t j u s t i f i a b l e -- 3 ^ t o do t h a t on o n e s e ir , knowin g t h e r e is overwhelm ing p r oof t h a t i t does occu r in an im als? *|j But you d id t h e exp er im en t on y o u r s e lf? -- Ye, on t h e s k i n . , ' - | I t would n ot h a r e done you an y gr e a t harm i f you had had t h e ^ a n a lys t a made? -> i do n ot know o f an y Am erican s who h ave don ' i t , and I do n ot see why I sh ou ld do i t , ;!. I do n ot su ggest t h a t you sh ou ld ; h u t i f you had hadt h e . a n a ly s is o f t h e e xcr e t a made, was what I wasa s k in g , ^ -- I o n ly wanted t o d eter m in e on e p o in t , wh ich was wh eth er i t was removed by kerosen e* i -~ As you know, th e t o t r a --e t h yl i s a r a p id ly s o lu b le s u b s t a n ce , ;i and i t i s a d m itted t h a t i t i s ab sor b ed v e r y r a p id ly when a p p lie d t o th e s k in ? ---- Ye s , ve r y r a p id ly . You h ave no e vid e n ce t h a t th e e t h y l p e t r o l i s ab sor bed in a ve r y r a p id d egr ee? -- Dr P lin n *h a s done some work on t h e q u e s t io n in exp er im en ts w it h a dead m onkey, and he h as coma t o th e con clu sio n t h a t th e le a d e t h yl h as e x a ct ly th e same a o tio n : th er e i s no d iffe r e n ce . But you agree t h a t th e le a d in e t h yl p e t r o l i s absorbed a t a v ary , vary g r e a t ly le s e r a te tttan leafl t s t r a - e t n y if -- -- Ye s , w it h t h e a d d it io n o f t h e p e t r o l, i t r en d er s t h e a b s o r p t io n more d i f f i c u l t , t t h in k when i t i s a p p lie d t o t h e s u r fa ce o f t h e s k i n , ' i t d r ie s v e r y r a p id ly , and in t h e , ~v a ct io n o f dryin g I th in k th er e is con cen tration ; th94^ e-4re-sKraeentrati<, BHI2XJE: Bo you sa y t h a t k er o sen e w o n n ot remove t h e e t h y l p e t r o l from the s k in ? Can you su ggest a n yt h in g t h a t would do . . it ? Is i t th e fa u lt o f the kerosen e, in oth er words? I t i s r a t h e r an im p or tan t p o in t . -- Ye s . i fin d t h a t t h e >f7 C/-.- , x 5 hr Coplans . ci 41 . ,,0 yc {. Am erican s t r i e d ker osen e and soa p . I d id n o t do t h a t 'Si;,:.-.' fcesausa t h e y p r oved th em selves t h a t i t eras u s e le s s t o t r y 'i an yth in g else* q you t h in k t h e r e I s n ot h in g e ls e t h a t r ill do i t ? -- i t may y he t h a t o liv e o i l w i ll do I t * >; ?,'-is q in yo u r in t r o d u ct io n you s t a t e t h i s , in s p e a k in g o f ga r a ge ,v# '' work: "With r ega r d t o t h e s o li d d e p o s it s t h e r e i s no doubt ; t h a t by reason o f i t s p h ys ica l ch a r a ct er s and ohem loal V co m p o sit io n , t h e s e su b st a n ces wou ld , i f p r e s e n t in p a in t , ' ; come w it h in t h e p r o vis io n s o f The le a d P a in t R e gu la t io n s 19 2 7, and t h a t wor ker s who h an d le t h e s e su b st a n ce s r e q u ir e s im ila r l e g i s l a t i v e p r o t e c t io n .* What i s t h a t view b ased on? ---- I t Is b a sed on t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e is more t h a n f i v e par ce n t o f s o lid boc<L in t h e d e p o s it s . Q Then i t d ep en d s on t h e q u a n t it y o f d e p o s it a s t o wh eth er t h e co n t a ct i s s u f f i c i e n t ? ---- q u it e go. q we h ave no d e fi n i t e evid en ce o f t h e amount o f d e p o s it p r e s e n t . ---- I t h in k I h a ve 'g ive n some t h e r e , and i t lg give n b y The Resea r ch As s o cia t io n , q But i t would n ot amount t o a n yt h in g very- g r e a t ? -- 1 s a y t h a t th e q u estion o f one ca r does n ot m a tter a t a ll} b u t i f you a*e go in g t o h ave p eo p le h a n d lin g i t a l l dqy lo n g , i t i s another m atter. d But n obody in a ga r a ge would h a n d le i t a l l d ay lo n g? ---- I am not a t a ll sure. Q I t h in k t h e y ar e en gaged on o t h e r t h i n g s . ---- I t h in k t h e y. . are engaged in con n ection w ith th ose d ep o sit s a t a l l tim es* ,' .. . ; q. You t h in k t h e r e 1 n o t h in g e ls e t h a t r ill do i t ? ---- i t may be t h a t o liv a o i l w i ll do i t * q In you r in t r o d u ct io n you s t a t e t h is , in sp eakin g o f ga r a ge. work: With r ega r d t o t h e s o lid d e p o s it s t h e r e i s no doubt ' . 4 th a t by reason o f it s p h ysica l ch a r a cter s and chem ical com p osition , t h ese su bstan ces would, i f p r esen t in p a in t , V come w it h in th e p r o vis io n s o f The Lead p a in t R e gu la t io n s 1927, and t h a t wor ker s who h an d le t h e s e su b st a n ce s r e q u ir e s im ila r I l e g i s l a t i v e p r o t e c t io n .* What i s t h a t view b ased on ? J, ---- I t is b a sed on t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e i s more t h a n f i v e f 4 p e r ce n t o f s o lid (ia<L in t h e d e p o s it s . ; q Then i t depen ds on t h e q u a n t it y o f d e p o s it a s t o wh eth er t h e .<: co n t a ct i s s u f f i c i e n t ? ---- q u it e s o . q we n ave no d e fi n i t e e vid e n ce o f t h e amount o f d e p o s it p r e s e n t . ---- I t h in k I have g ive n some t h e r e , and i t ig ^ given b y The Resea r ch As s o cia t io n * q But i t would n ot amount t o a n yt h in g ve r y g r e a t ? ---- x s a y th a t the qu estion of one ca r does n ot m a tter a t a ll ; b u t i f you are go in g t o h ave p eo p le h a n d lin g i f a l l dqy lo n g , i t i s another m atter. q But n obody in a ga r a ge would h a n d le i t a l l d a y lo n g ? ---- I a s i not at a ll sure, ; q i t h in l; t h e y ar e en gaged on o t h e r t h in g s . -- I t h in k t h e y, a r e engaged In con n ection w ith th ose d e p o sit s a t a l l tim es. q But i t is b ased on t h e assum ption t h a t t h e r e i s goin g t o be V a con sid erab ly qu an tity o f i t in th e garage? - -- This I s 3,5 Pr cent, . q Then i t depends on t h e q u a n t it y o f d u st you r in d In t h e ga r a ge , i do n ot t h in k you q u it e a gr e e w it h Dr Kehoe a s t o - t h e amount o f le a d he fin d s in t h e d e p o s it s ? -- I a cce p t h is statem ent, ?1 3Dr co p la n s . Q. You qu ota from Dr Ca r l Vogel o f St Lu ke's H osp it a l Hew Yor k, wh o says?: on ly 3 . per ce n t o f a l l p a t ie n t s a d m it t ed had , s ig n ific a n t amounts o f le a d in s t o o l * What do you mean by " s i g n ific a n t am oun ts"7 ---- I was on ly q u o t in g t h e r e * t h e r e liad been a n e s t in g o f t h e in d u s t r ia l H ygien e As s o cia t io n o f th e United s t a t e s b efor e I go t t h er e in which th ey d iscu ssed th is. Q In New York i t was H. p e r c e n t ? ---- Yesp and o u t s id e i t \ went t o a s f a r a s iQC p e r c e n t . G Bo you t h in k t h a t i s p o s s ib le ? ---- I f one fin d s i t t h e r e , one a cce p t s i t . G I;,am in t e r e s t e d in th ose exp er im en t s on t h e ga r a ge wor ker s* /. One o f t h e men was n ot so exported t o th e le a d p e t r o l, and y e t t h ey foun d more le a d on h is o v e r a ll th a n t h e y did on th e m ech an ic who was exp osed t o i t , y o u would e xp e ct i t t o be t h e o t h e r way roun d?---- I do n o t know. O I t lo o k s r a t h e r a s though i t was a norm al co n d it io n , th e amount o f le a d t h a t was fou n d in t h e fo a ce s * I f you had exam in ed 1CD ga r a ge w o r k e r s, you m igh t h ave foun d f i f t y o f them w it h t h a t amount? ---- q u it e s o . a \ Q. Whether t h e y h ad u sed le a d p e t r o l o r n o t ? ---- Ye s . fh a t was b r ou gh t ou t a t t h e Essex Con gr ess: t h a t t h e r e was an enormous d is t r ib u t io n o f le a d on t h e wo r k er s, t o see what t h e r is k s o f exposure were. . q At t h e bottom o f yo u r f i r s t p age o f exp er im en t s I t h in k t h e r e i s a m ista ke* You sa y: "Lin en swab p lu s 2 c c . ker o sen e p lu s t h e r ea gn t e u sed fo r t h e e s t im a t io n o f t h e le a d . 0 .0 1 mgn: o f le a d t e t r a - e t h v l fou n d . (2 ) Lin en swab p lu s 2 c c . ker o sen e ' ' mt' ' " . .. - . . '  s i g n i f i c a n t , a i a o u n t s ?----- i fas 'i n l y q u o t i n g t h e r e . Th e re had been a m e e ting o f th e in d u s tr ia l Hygie ne As s o cia tio n o f * t h e U n i t e d s t a t e s b e fo r e I g o t t h e r e i n w h ic h t h e y d i s c u s s e d "f: th is . 0, In New Yo rk i t w as U> p e r c e n t ? Ye s * an d o u ts id e i t . aai .,-r-v 7 tre nt t o a s f a r a s ICC p e r c e n t . .f c. Bo y o u t h i n k t h a t i s p o s s i b l e ? i f one fin d s i t th e re , ' one a cce p ts i t . . 'i q 1: am i n t e r e s t e d i n t h o s e e x p e r im e n ts o n t h e g a r a g e w o r k e r s . i One o f t h e men w as n o t s o e x p o s e d t o th e l e a d p e t r o l , a n d y e t th e y fo u n d more le a d on h i s o v e r a l l th a n th e y ' d id on th e ^ m e c h a n ic who w as e x p o s e d t o i t * Yo u w o u ld e x p e c t i t t o b e p t h e o t h e r way r o u n d ?;----- I do n o t k n o w . ; 0 It lo o k s ra th e r as tho ugh i t was a normal c o n d itio n , th e amount o f le a d t h a t was fo u n d in th e fo a c e s . I f yo u had p e xa m in e d ICC g a r a g e w o r k e r s , y o u m ig h t h a v e fo u n d f i f t y o f 7 them w ith t h a t am ount? -- - q u ite s o . 0. w h e th e r t h e y h a d u s e d l e a d p e t r o l o r n o t ? ----- Y e s . f h a t w as b r o u g h t o u t a t t h e Es s e x Co n g r e s s : t h a t t n e r e w as an e n o rm o u s d i s t r i b u t i o n o f le a d .o n th e w o rk e rs , to s e e w hat th e r is k s o f e xposure w ere. - .| q At the bottom o f yo u r f i r s t page o f e xpe rim e nts I th in k th e re i s a m i s t a k e . Yo u s a y ; "Li n e n sw ab p l u s 2 c c . k e r o s e n e p l u s t h e r e a g e n t s u s e d f o r t h e e s t i m a t i o n o f t h e l e a d . 0 .0 1 mgm Of;. le a d t e t r a - e t n y l fo u n d . ( 2 ) Lin e n swab p lu s 2 c c . k e ro s e n e p l u s 1 c c , o f e t h y l p e t r o l . Co r r e c t e d f o r t h e b l a n k , 1 . 1 'mg le a d t e t r a -e t h y l fo u n d ." I th in k th a t m ust be a m is ta k e . ----- Oh n o , t h a t i s a l l r _i g h t . B r B l i l B JE: I t s e e m s a c u r i o u s t h i n g t o f i n d t h o s e w o r d s . S i r Wit. WILLCOX: I d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d i t , ----- Th e re i s a c e r t a i n " amount o f le a d . . -.1 m co plan ': Q Ye s : I can unde rstand i t b e in g le a d *, Ye a , I Sim u la n a ve s a i d *le a d *. i t Sim u la b e l e a d * , n o t *k e r o s e n e *. Dr BHI ICE: As t o t h is que s t i on o f le a d a s com pared w it h a c i d s : t h e y d o n o t c o n t a i n o n l y l e a d p e t r o l a d d ? ----- q u i t e - s o * 1110 l e a d i s more a c t i v e o n t h e s k i n . < q Yo u s u g g e s t t h a t i t s h o u ld h e s c h e d u l e d a s a p o i s o n ? --~ Ye ; Q, Yo u w o u ld s c h e d u l e w h it e l e a d a s w a l l ? - -- >io . I f f i t i s . - . .r-.r^a know n t h a t i t p r o d u c e s a b o r t i o n , a n d i t i s k n o w n --------- q Cf c o u r s e i t i s v e r y i m p o r t a n t ? ---- Y e s ;: i f i t i s know n th a t i t w ill produce a b o rtio n . ; q The n y o u t h i n k i t s h o u ld b e s c h e d u le d ? ---- Ye s , b e c a u s e o f th at, Q bo you t h in k women. n ib i t in t o t h e i r kin in o r d e r tto p rod u ce a b o r t io n ? ---- I do n ot know what t h e y w i ll do* 31r ite w i l l COX: They sch ed u le d iacu lu m ? -r-- Yes; and women ta k e diaculum . ' Mr BRIB3 E: I t i s n o t t h e q u e s t i o n o f s c h e d u l i n g e t h y l p e t r o l , b u t t h e e t h yl I t s e l f ? ---- Oh n o: t h e le a d e t h yl i t s e l f . There is le a d e t h yl b ein g sold by th e B.D.K. in th e la s t thre e ye ars a an o rdinary a r t i c l e . S i r wm Wi l l c o x : Le a d e t j h y l ? ----- Le a d e t h y l . Th e re I t i s : they s e ll i t co nce ntrate d as le ad e th y l. CHAIRMAN: Thank y o u . 0018355 (The w itn e ss w ithdre w ). nr is u n yis : a s w u s q u e s t i o n o r i e a a st? co m p are d w i t h a c i d s : t h e y do n o t c o n t a i n o n l y l e a d p a t r o l a c i d ? ----- Q u i t e ' s o . The l e a d i s w o re a c t i v e o n t h e s k i n q Yo u s u g g e s t t h a t i t s h o u ld he s c h e d u le d a s a p o i s o n ? ---- Tee. q Yo u w o u ld s c h e d u l e w h i t s l e a d a s w a l l ? ----- $ o * X f ^ i t i s S known t h a t i t p r o d u c e s a b o r t i o n a n d i t i s know n ~ ------- T- q Of c o u r s e i t i s v e r y im p o r t a n t? - -- Ye ;?;: i f i t i s known th a t i t w ill produce a b o rtio n . q The n y o u t h i n k i t s h o u ld b e s c h e d u l e d ? ----- Ye s b e c a u s e o f - ' th at, q d o y o u t h i n k women rub i t i n t o t h e i r s k i n i n o r d e r tfco , p ro d u ce a b o r tio n ? - -- I d o n o t know w hat t h e y w i l l d o , ; S i r Wt v i LLCOX: The y s o h a d u i a d i a c u lu m ? -- Ye s j an d women r| take diaculum * } % S r BRID3 K: I t i s n o t t h e q u e s t i o n o f s c h e d u l i n g e t h y l p e t r o l * ; b u t t h e e t h y l i t s e l f ? ----- On n o : t h e l e a d e t h y l i t s e l f * There i s le a d e th y l b e in g s o ld by th e B .P .K . in th e la s t thre e ye ars as an ordinary a r t i c l e . S i r Tfw w i l l c o x : l e a d e t j h y l ? -- l e a d e t h y l . Th e re i t i s : they s e ll i t conce ntrate d as le ad e th yl* , CHAIRMAN: Thank y o u * ( The . W i t n e s s w i t h d r e w ) . (The co m iaitte e a d jo u rn e d f o r l u n c h ) . -.l' r'i'v. 0018356 i>o Mr H. S* HOWELL c a l l e d and e xam ine d. CHAIRMAN: I t h in h yo u a r e t h e D ir e c t o r o f t h e Re s e a r ch 1 A s s o c ia t io n o f t h e A l l i e d Mo t o r M a n u fa c t u r e r s ? -----Yes*' : Q You a r e t h e s e n io r a s s o c ia t e o f t h e Sc h o o l o f M in e s , a Ba ch e lo r o f Scie n ce and have va r io u s o t h e r d is t in c t io n s , ? You h a ve been co n ce r n e d w it h t h o s e e xp e r im e n t s t h a t Dr ` f f , -;iT* Co p la n s h a s been t e l l i n g u s a b o u t t h i s m o r n in g ? -----Ye s , . Q Many o f them w e r e d on e a t y o u r Re s a s e ch la b o r a t o r y , I t h in h ? -----The e n g in e t e s t s w er e d on e t h e r e , ' >1 (j, Would yo u t e l l t h e Com m it t e e b r i e f l y w h at yo u ca n t e l l them in regard to th e h e a lth dangers o f t h is e t h y l ga so le n e , E ir s t o f a l l , in r egar d to th ose two m ech an ics, were they you r ' w o r it m e n ?-----Ye s , / Is Q Did yo u n o t ic e a t a l l t h a t t h e y w e r e i l l ? -----No , 3 i r , t h e y ' were n ot i l l ; and th ey were r e p e a te d ly-q u e stio n e d d u r in g th e t e s t s a s to w hether th e y f e l t an y i l l e ffe c t s , Without e xce p tio n th ey answered n o. Q You a r e fa m i l i a r w it h t h e fi n d i n g o f le a d i n t h e e x c r e t a A o f on e o f t h e w o r k m e n ?-----Ye s , Q Do yo u a t t a c h a n y co n s e q u e n ce t o t h a t a t a l l ? -----No . i n fa c t d u r in g t h e p r o gr e s s o f t h e e xa m in a t io n I wa3 in fo r m e d t h a t le a d had been fou n d a n d *t h e r e fo r e ash e d t h e m ech an ic to en q u ir e o f th e s p e c ia lis t a t th e co lle g e a s to w hether th e le a d had a n y in flu e n c e , so t h a t he co u ld t a h e him o f f h i s w or h ; b u t he w as in fo r m e d t h a t t h e t r a c e o f le a d was i . * so m in u te and m igh t e a s ily be cau sed b y s o ld e r in g -- o f w h ich he d id a good d e a l -- so t h a t t h e r e was no d an ger -a p p a r e n t fr om t h a t . A s s o c i a t i o n o f t h e A l l i e d Mo t o r M a n u f a c t u r e r s ? ----- Ye s * 9 Yo u a r e t h e s e n i o r a s s o c i a t e o f t h e Sc h o o l o f M i n e s , a } ?$ Ba ch e lo r o f Scie n ce and have v a rio u s o th e r d i s t in c t io n s . Yo u h a v e be e n c o n c e r n e d w i t h t h o s e e x p e r i m e n t s t h a t D r \ V& Co p la n s h a s be e n t e l l i n g u s a b o u t t h i s m o r n i n g ?----- Ye a * ^ ; * Man y o f th e m w e re d o n e a t y o u r Ke s e ao s ch l a b o r a t o r y , I th in 2 c ?| ----- The e n g i n e t e s t s w e re d o n e t h e r e . q Wo uld y o u t e l l t h e Co m m itte e b r i e f l y w h a t y o u c a n t e l l the m i n re gard to th e h e a lt h d an ge rs o f t h i s e t h y l g a s o le n e , S'ir s t ' /. :v?, o f a l l , i n r e g a r d t o t h o s e tw o m e c h a n i c s , w e re t h e y y o u r '* r % . - :r-.iV:.5*3j w o r k m e n ?----- Y e s , - & q D i d y o u n o t i c e a t a l l t h a t th e y w e r e i l l ? :----- i i o , s i r , t h e y w ere n o t i l l ; and th e y were re p e a te d ly q u e s tio n e d d u rin g th e t e s t s a s to w he the r th e y f e l t any i l l e ffe c t s . Witho ut e xce p tio n th e y answ ered n o . ! q Yo u a r e f a m i l i a r w i t h t h e f i n d i n g o f l e a d i n t h e e x c r e t a o f o n e o f t h e w o r k m e n ?----- Ye s . '* q Do y o u a t t a c h a n y c o n s e q u e n c e t o t h a t a t a l l ? ----- Mo . I n f a c t d u rin g th e p ro gre s s o f th e e xa m in a tio n I was in fo rm e d th at le ad had been / ound a n d *th e re fo re ashe d the meohanio to e nquire o f th e s p e c ia lis t a t th e co lle g e a s to w hether the le ad had any in flu e n c e , so th a t he co u ld taica him o ff. : ' h ie w o rh; but he w as in fo rm e d th a t th e tr a c e o f le a d was s o m in u te an d m ig h t e a s i l y be c a u s e d b y s o l d e r i n g --- o f w h ich he d id a good d e a l -- so th a t th e re was no dange r a p p a re n t fro m t h a t , - q So y o u d i d n o t y o u r s e l f t h i n x t h a t til a l e a d t h a t w as fo u n d i n t h e e x c r e t a h ad n e c e s s a r i l y come fro m t h e e t h y l p e t r o l ? ----- W e l l , I d i d n o t p e r s o n a l l y . At l e a s t f o r some t i m e I d id n o t b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s no l e a d fo u n d i n t h e s e c o n d m an . On g o in g i n t o t h a t t o t r y and fi n d t h e e x p la n a t i o n o f i t I fo und Mr H o w e ll th a t m e ch an ic A. had be e n w o ricin g a t t h e e n g in e , w h e re as -'/ h ' V* m e ch an ic B . hah n o t and m e ch an ic A. w as more e xp o s e d to th e a c tio n o f e th y l p e tr o l -- i f i t has an a c tio n -- th an any o r d i n a r y man i n a g a r a g e o r i n a m o t o r i s t s d e p o t c o u ld * p o s s i b l y be * He w as c o n s t a n t l y a d ju s t i n g t h e c a r b u r e t t o r , ;V v e r y o f t e n h o l d i n g h i a h an d o v e r t h e i n l e t : h i s arm s w e re ``111 `11 fre q u e n tly e xpose d, and in f i l l i n g the ove rhead tanh / || o c c a s i o n a l l y t h e e t h y l p e t r o l w o u ld t r i c k l e d o w n .M s arm s an, d` y-,3 in s p ite o f w arnings he d id no t ta x e any p re cau tio n s to wash i t o ff; so I was no t s u rp ris e d to fin d le a d s to ra g e : no r 'll was 2 d o u b t fu l t h a t i t w as fro m th e e t h y l p e t r o l* />! q, Yo u t h i n x some o f i t d i d come fro m t h a t ? ----- Y e s , I t h i n X s o . , q, Th e s e w orxm e n w e re e n g a g e d X g a t h e r i n s c r a p i n g t h e s e e n g i n e s ? ----- Ye s . That w as a f t e r th e c a r s had do n e t h e i r m i le a g e * . ' The y w e re b ro u gh t th e re and o pe ne d o u t an d v a r i o u s d e p o s i t s w ere removed, , Q, Th o s e tw o m e c h a n ic s w e re g n g a g e d o n t h a t w o r x ? ----- Th e y w e re bo th e ngage d e q u a lly on th e s c r a p in g : I d id some m y s e lf: in ' fa c t I too& p art i n re m o vin g-e ve ry d e p o s it in o rde r to g e t an ide a o f the te xtu re and hardness o f i t . ;/ Dr LAiXDJR: Th e re a r e o n e o r tw o v e r y m in o r p o i n t s I s h o u ld l i l c e t o a s x y o u a b o u t . Co u ld y o u d e s c r i b e ju s t a l i t t l e m o re a t le n g th the n atu re o f the te x tu re and hardn e s s o f th e d e p o s its yo u have jU3 t r e fe r r e d t o . That i s to s a y , to w hat - e x t e n t i s i t c o n c e i v a b l e t h a t t h o s e d e p o s i t s m ig h t mah,e d u s t ? ----- Ce r t a i n l y . The n a t u r e o f t h e d e p o s i t s v a r i e s v e r y 'w i d e l y : in de e d a cco rd in g to th e co n d itio n s in w h ich the e n gin e h a s be e n r u n n i n g . 5*or i n s t a n c e , o n a s m a l l e n g i n e , r u n n i n g t h e t h i n g c o l d and w i t h p l e n t y o f o i l y o u ge .b a l e a d m as s o n t h e o r d i n a r y man i n a g a r a g e o r i n a mo t o r i a t a d e p o t c o u l d p o s s i b l y b e . He wa3 c o n s t a n t l y a d ju s t i n g t h e c a r b u r e t t o r , v e ry o ft e n h o ld in g h i s hand o ve r th e i n l e t : h is arms w e re fre q u e n tly e xpose d, and in f i l l i n g the o ve rhe ad tanh o c c a s i o n a l l y th e e t h y l p e t r o l v/ ould t r i c k l e d o w n ,h ia arras and| i n s p i t e o f w a rn in g s h e d i d n o t t a i l s a n y p r e c a u t i o n s to w a s h '1 i t o ff; so I was no t s u rp ris e d to fin d le a d s to ra g e : nor w as X d o u b t fu l t h a t i t w as fro m th e e t h y l p e t r o l . :1 q, Yo u t n i n x some o f i t d i d come fro m t h a t ? ----- Y e s , I th in JC s o .M | The se workmen w e re e n gage d I g a th e r i n s c r a p in g th e s e e n gin e ?! ----- Ye s . Th at w as a f t e r th e c a r s h a d d o n e t h e i r m i l e a g e , .. /i- Th e y w e re b r o u g h t t h e r e a n d o p e n e d o u t a n d v a r i o u s d e p o s i t s w ere removed, Q, Th o s e tw o m e c h a n ic s w e re gjngage d o n t h a t w o rx ? - -- Th e y w e re bo th engaged e q u a lly on th e s c ra p in g : I d id some m y s e lf: in f a c t I to o Jc p a r t i n re m o v in g e v e r y d e p o s i t i n o r d e r to g e t an ide a o f the te xtu re and hardness o f i t . Dr LAiSDJSR: The re a r e o n e o r tw o v e r y m in o r p o i n t s I s h o u ld l i Jc e t o a a x y o u a b o u t . Co u ld y o u d e s c r i b e ju s t a l i t t l e more a t le n g th the n atu re o f the te x tu re and h ard n e s s o f th e d e p o s its yo u have jU3 t re fe rr e d t o . That i s to s a y , to w hat . e x t e n t i s i t c o n c e i v a b l e t h a t t h o s e d e p o s i t s m ig h t maj^e d u s t ?. ----- Ce r t a i n l y , The n a t u r e o f t h e d e p o s i t s v a r i e s v e r y - w i d e l y in d e e d a cco rd in g to th e c o n d itio n s in w h ich the e n gin e h a s been run ning. So r in a ta n ce , on a sm all e n gin e , running th e t i l i n g c o l d and w i t h p l e n t y o f o i l y o u g e t a l e a d me^as o a t h e s u rfa ce , in th e s ile n c e r , e s p e c ia lly i f i t is d e fic ie n t i n V o i l , y o u c e r t a i n l y g e t m o s t l y c a r b o n . Yo u g e t a l o o Be c a r .b o h A x\ w ith a gre y is h tin ge in the le ad m ixtu re . But the de posits^ v a r y n o t o n l y i n h a r d n e s s , b u t s o m e tim e s yo u ; g e t i t a s t h oi'\uVf--Ofleh, f - fo r > ' .. ; v t h e e n g i n e h ad b e e n ru n n in g / s o m e m i l e s f o r i n s t a n c e , with a- v-, K 0018360 A K 0018361 n / I r3 /' U.T HoW e ll, r ich m ixtu r e and p le n t y o f o i l , you g e t a caXs o f car bon ; and th en you can su rm ise a ft e r t h a t t h a t th-s en gin e was , 3-3 run h o t , and w it h t h e le a n e r m ixtu r e you g e t some o f t h e o ld , ca r b o n b u r n t o f f and a d r vt e r ca r b on d e p o a it . Then you g e t 3 a fr e s h la y e r . Then som etim es in t h e exh a u st p ip e s and v '' . . .. e xh a u st v a lv e s you g e t a v e r y h ar d r a d is h d e p o s it . I t i a , '.f|j h a r d ly a s c a le , i n f a c t i t i a h a r d ly a d e p o a it , i t i s more `r&t - l i x e some a l l o y on some ir o n . The v a r i e t y o f t h e d e p o a it '3 was so g r e a t t h a t no a ttem p t was mads to a n a ly s e , byond 3 one o r two o u t s t a n d in g fe a t u r e s , i n g e n e r a l I t h in x i t was :3 foun d t h a t t h e exh a u st w a t e r co n t a in e d more c h lo r id e and t h e ca r b o n d e p o s it s mor;e brom id e, b u t I sh o u ld n o t liX e . -/r t o raaxe them t oo d e fi n i t e . q, -youId. i t be f a i r t o sum m arise i t by any in s t h a t th e powdery m a t e r ia l was more l i x e l y t o come from t h e e xh a u st p ip e ; and t h e d u st wiii eh h a s come o f f d u r in g d e - c a r b on is in g , o r som eth in g liX e t h a t , i s on th e a ver a ge, g e n e r a lly spa a xin g, a s o ft e r - m a t e r ia l -- I am t h in x in g more o f t h e d u s t in t h e ga r a ge ' r a t h e r t h a n t h e d u s t in t h e ^ s t r e e t ? ---- I fin d i t v e r y `* d iffic u lt to an swer, because on th e exh au st va lve s a s a r u le you g e t a d r y t h in la ye r o f d u s t , bu t u n d ern eath you g e t a h ard pinX s c a l e ' t h a t ' f l i e s u p , and t h a t i s d i f f i c u l t t o a n a ly s e . Then in some o f t h e v a lv e s wh er e one c y lin d e r ia o ve r - o ile d , fo r in s t a n ce s , you ge t th e o i l h old in g th e carbon and th e d u st in a a o ft la ye r . I th in x th e gr ea t d u st d a n ger , i f t h e r e i a on eu l i e s in t h e s ile n c e r , But , . moat s ile n c e r s a r e seldom clean ed o u t , u n le s s t h er e i s b a c x - fir in g in th e s t r e e t , th en you may g e t a clou d o f ^ ai-uva v x tuia a arjt&r c a r oon d e p o s it , liia n y ou g e t , a fr e s h la y e r , 2 hen som etim es in th e exh a u st p ip es and exh au st va lve s you g e t a ve r y hard r e d is h d e p o s it . I t ia h a r d ly a s c a le , i n fa c t i t i a h a r d ly a d e p o s it , i t i s m o r e' }^i l i x e some a l l o y on some ir o n . The v a r i e t y o f t h e d e p o s it ;4 was so g r e a t t h a t no a t t em p t was made to a n a ly s e , byon d si one o r two o u t s t a n d in g fe a t u r e s , i n g e n e r a l I t h in s i t w a s `- i foun d t h a t t h e exh a u st w a t e r co n t a in e d more ch lo r id e and th e car bon d e p o sit s more brom ide, but I sh ou ld n ot Ilice ^ t o m axs them t o o d e fi n i t e , . A'/.'U' - q Would i t be f a i r t o sum m arise i t b y s a yin g t h a t th e powdery m a t e r ia l was more l i v e l y t o come from t h e e xh a u st p ip e ; and ; t h e d u et w h ich h a s come o f f d u r in g d e - c a r bon i s in g , o r som eth in g Ilice th a t, la on th e a ve r a ge,ge n e r a lly sp eakin g, a s o ft e r m a t e r ia l - --l ara t h in icin g more o f t h e d u s t i n t h e ga r a ge - rath er than the du st in the s tr e e t? -- - I fin d i t ver y `h ;.i' ` d iffic u lt to an swer, because on th e exh au st va lve3 a s a r u le you g e t a d r y t h in la ye r o f d u s t , but u n d ern eath you g e t a h ard pinK s c a le t h a t f l i e s u p , and t h a t i s d i f f i c u l t t o a n a ly s e . Then in some o f t h e v a lv e s wh er e one c y lin d e r ia o v e r - o ile d , fo r in s t a n ce s , you g e t th e o i l h o ld in g th e carbon and th e d u st ia a s o ft la y e r , I th in x th e gr e a t d u s t d a n ge r , i f t h e r e i s one** l i e s i n t h e s ile n c e r * But m ost s ile n c e r s a r e seldom clea n ed o u t , u n le s s t h e r e i s bacie-fir in g in th e s t r e e t , th en you may g e t a clou d o f b la cic d u s t blown o u t th r ou gh f i r i n g t h e s i le n c e r . - q That i s p er h ap s l i v e l y t o o ccu r a t long' in t e r v a ls w it h a ca r , but i t i s a fa ir ly d e fin it e th in g to happen, is not i t . You m igh t g e t s t o r a g e i n t h e e xh a u st p ip e . Cou ld n o t you s a y t h a t w it h p r a c t i o a lly e v e r y ca r , p er h a p s on ce a weeK, ' you m ight; c le a r q u it e a .-lo t o f s t u ff out o f i t s s ile n c e r ? - By b a c x - fir i n g , ye s you w o u ld . , Hr RoweiJ., q So h er d i t i s a co n d it io n l i x e t h a t ? ---- Ye a . Q I am n o t q u it e a u r a wh eth er t h i s i a a s i l l y q u e s t io n . I t o ccu r r e d t o me i n co n n e ct io n w it h wh ere you a a y i t i s seld om th at a m otorist needs to a d ju st h is ca r b u r e tto r , I was wondering wheth er t h e r e was any ten d en cy w ith th e u se o f jv e t h y l p e t r o l fo r t h e ca r b u r e t t o r to need a d ju s t in g more -<. 4*$* f r e q u e n t ly : wh ere t h e p e t r o l had been s t a n d in g , wh er e aome'.-f &< d ecom p osition had taKen p la c e , and where t h e r e was a t en d en cy fo r t h e j e t s t o g e t stop p ed u p m o r e ? ---- Su p p osin g v|^ m a e a r i s s t a n d in g fo r a lo n g t im e , in w h ich ca s e t h e word -M ' in "seld om '* a p p lie s --- in r ega r d t o st o p p in g t h e j e t s we h ave n ot foun d t h a t e xce p t wh er e t h e a c e t yle n e lam p s a r e u s e d . Bu t ' v' ; in regard to t h e ca r b u r e t t o r , u n less the en gin e was run nin g ve r y b ad ly i t ia ve r y u n liX e ly t h a t je t s g e t blocked, J q in the la s t paragraph, r e fe r r in g to you r le t t e r in Mature -- wh id a n l h ave n o t b e fo r e me a t t h e moment -- you a a y th e maximum p o s s ib le in c r e a s e o f en er gy o b t a in e d fr om e t h y l p e t r o l -- th a t I suppose ia w ith the presen t con cen tration ? ---- Th a t i s s o . Dr fcAHDER: Than* you . ; : MAJOR GALW3Y: Were t h eb e .'m echan ics who wer e t e s t e d yo u r own m eoh an ics? ----- Ye s , ,, q Were t h e y vo lu n t e e r s o r wer e t h e y ju s t d e t a ile d t o t h e worX? -- They were d e t a ile d . I t was p a r t o f t h e ir wor x, Q They d id n ot seem t o mind u s in g t h i s s t u f f a t a l l ? - -- Ho, q Had t h e y a n y a p p r e h e n s io n ? ---- Ho: e xce p t -feha* a s r e ga r d s , a n y s p e c ia l t e a t s t ) ia t I had o cca s io n to fo r b id , b eca u se i tt , wae n ot p a r t o f t h e ir wor x, but th e t e s t in g o f en gin es and th a t a m otor ist n eeds to a d ju st h i a ca r b u r e tto r , I was wondaring wh eth er t h e r e was any ten d en cy w ith th e u se o f - e t h y l p e t r o l fo r t h e c a r b u r e t t o r t o need a d ju s t in g more f r e q u e n t ly : wh ere t h e p e t r o l had b een s t a n d in g, wh er e some ' d ecom p osition had taicen p la c e , and wh ere t h e r e was a J if ten d en cy fo r th e je t s to ge t stopped up more? - Supposin g a c a r i s s t a n d in g fo r a lo n g t im e , in w h ich ca s e t h e word -Y>J `seldom * a p p lie s in r ega r d t o s t o p p in g t h e j e t s we h ave not; foun d t h a t excep t wh ere t h e a ce t yle n e lam ps a r e u se d . But ' in regard to t h e ca r b u r e t t o r , u n less the en gin e was running | ve r y b ad ly i t i s v e r y u n liX e ly t h a t je t s g e t blocked, \'H II ?*< q I n th e la s t p aragrap h , r e fe r r in g t o you r l e t t e r in Ifature - - 1 w h id in l h ave n o t b e fo r e me a t t h e moment -- you s a y th e : maximum p o s s ib le in c r e a s e o f en er gy o o t a in e d fr om e t h y l p e t r o l -- th a t I suppose is w ith the presen t con cen tration ? I hat is so. : Dr LAKDSR: Thame yo u . MAJCP. GALWSY: Were t h e s e m ech an ics who w er e t e s t e d yo u r own ,v m ech an ics? --->Ye a , yy; q Were t h e y v o lu n t e e r s o r wer e t h e y ju s t d e t a ile d t o t h e worK? ~-- They were d e t a ile d . I t was p a r t o f t h e i r wor , q They d id n ot seem t o mind u s in g t h i s s t u f f a t a l l ? ---- H o ,;# ^ q Had t h e y an y a p p r eh en sion ? - -- 2To: e xce p t fchat a s r e ga r d s an y s p e cia l t e a t s t h a t 2 had occa sion to fo r b id , because i t wa s n o t p a r t o f t h e ir worjs:, b u t t h e t e s t in g o f e n gin e s and exp er im en t in g w it h a n y s o r t o f fu e l i s p a r t o f t h e i r woric 'T^ and th ey a r e exp ected to do i t , q They d id n o t seem t o mind u s in g t h i s s t u f f ? ---- i f t h e y had th ey would have had to go , q And t h e y s t i l l em ploy on t h is t h e same two m e n ? ---- Te a , CJ 64 54 Hr Row an, q Have you n o t ic e d an y d e t r im e n t to t h e i r h e a lt h a t a l l ? ----- Ho, q Aa r e g a r d s D r Co p l a n s f i n d i n g a b o u t t h e o v e r a l l s , h a v e y o u a s a m a tte r o f f a o t tafcen a n y s t e p s a a re g a rd s la u n d r ie s s i n c e t h a t ti m e ? - --- H o , n o r m a l l y I i n s i s t t h a t t h e y a h a l l have cle an o v e r a lls o n ce a w ae x, but fo r th e s p e c ia l . purpose o f th is experim en t th e o v e r a lls w ere used co n tln u o u alj '- from th e b e gin n in g to th e e n d, and th e y w e re c e r t a i n l y v e r y f | . :# lli d irty, . q So th a t th o s e o v e r a lls w o u ld b e a b n o r m a l l y d i r t y ? - -- Oh , V- v e r y much s o , p e rh ap s I m igh t e x p la in th e pre po n de ran ce hi o f th e m a te ria l on th e o v e r a ll o f m echanic 3 , by sayin g th a t he has a v e r y bad h a b it o f w ip in g h is hands on h i a ' o ve ra lls , - Mr PYS : Th e re i s a f i g u r e w h i c h X t h i n x y o u a r e r e s p o n s i b l e fo r , w hich was quoted th is m orning, n am ely, 94 m illigram s o f l e a d p e r c u b i c m e tr e o f e x h a u s t g a s ? ----- Y e s , q That seems t o me r a t h e r an im p or t a n t f i g u r e , b ecau se c e r ta in c a lc u la tio n s w ere based upon i t , because th e amount o f l e a d p e r c u b i c m e tr e o f e x h a u s t g a s w o u ld d e p e n d u p o n ' ; th e m ix tu re / s tre n g th ? Ye a, < q I th o u gh t i t m igh t be u s e fu l i f yo u w ould t e l l u s th e b a s is o f th a t c a lc u la tio n , I s th a t 94 m illigra m s on th e assum ption . th a t Ju s t enough a i r was ta x e n in to bum a l l th e p e tro l e t h y l ? ----- Ho* ` Th a t l a w o rXe d o u t o n a ,0 8 4 m i x tu r e , a s 12 to 1; bu t i f yo u t a x e 16 to 1 th e n yo u g e t a g r e a t e r vo lum e o f e xh au s t g a s , and th e r e fo r e a lo w e r le a d co n te n t , p e r c u b i c m e t r e . The n a g a i n 8 0 m i l l i g r a m s p e r c u b i c m e tr e ; th a t i s 16 to 1, sin ce t h a t tim e? He, n or m a lly I i n s i s t t h a t t h e y s h a ll liare olean ove r a lla on ce & weex, but fo r th e a p e o ia l ./ 'rji* purpoae o f t h is experim en t th e o v e r a lls were used con tin u ou sly from t h e b egin n in g t o t h e en d , and t h e y wer e c e r t a i n ly v e r y m d ir ty, Q So t h a t t h o s e o v e r a lls wou ld b e a enana a l l y d ir t y ? -- - Oh, v a r y muoh s o . p er h a p s I m igh t e x p la in t h e p r ep on d er an ce o f th a m a t e r ia l on th e o v e r a ll o f m echan ic B, by sayin g th a t he has a ve r y bad h a b it o f wip in g h ie hands on h is r< o ve r a lls, Mr pYB: Th ere i s a fig u r e w h ich I t h in x you a r e r e s p o n s ib le fo r , wh ich was qu oted t h ia m orn in g, n am ely, 94 m illigr a m s o f le a d par cu b ic m etr e o f e xh a u st ga s ? - -- Ye a , 4 %A Q That aeema t o me r a t h e r an im p or t a n t f i g u r e , b ecau se ce r t a in c a lc u la t io n s were baaed upon i t , because th e amount o f le a d p er cu b ic m etr e o f e xh a u st ga s wou ld depen d upon ;';| i t h e m ixt u r e^ s t r e n g t h ? ---- Ye a , r-: ^ \ q, I t h o u gh t i t m igh t be u s e fu l i f you wou ld t e l l u s t h e b a s ia o f th a t ca lc u la t io n . I s t h a t 94 m illigr a m s on th e assum ption t h a t j u s t en ou gh a ir ,w a s t a xo n in t o b u m a l l t h e `p e t r o l \ e t h y l ? ---- Ho, Th a t i s w o rXe d o u t o n a *0 8 4 m i x t u r e , a s 12 t o 1; bu t i f you t a x e 16 t o 1 t h en you g e t a g r e a t e r *~ volum e o f exh au st ga s , and t h e r e fo r e a low er le a d con ten t p er o u b ic m et r e. Then a g a in 80 m illig r a m s p er cu b ic m etr e: t h a t i s 16 t o 1, Q, in f a c t you wer e a llo w in g in t h e 94 m illig r a m s fo r a cer t a in ' r ich n e s s o f m ixtu r e which would be n o r m a lly e x is t in g in a m otor ca r en gin e ? -- I t i s a good a ve r a ge fi g u r e . You cou ld go t o a 10 t o 1 m ixt u r e , i n wh ich ca s e you would h a ve to ta Xe 10 m illig r a m s p er cu b ic m e&re; so I t h in X 94 i s a v e r y good* a ver a ge fo r running co n d it io n s, KIT 0018366 55 ?6 Mr Sow 11, V Q- 5 L' q X wanted to be q u ite c le a r th a t you were n o t ta x in g a le a n m ixture than? - - - go , l&ere l a a p o in t th a t X o ught to mantle X thinic: th a t i a th at 94 la calcu late d out on the assumption o f H grams o f m e ta lli c stead pe r g a llo n o f p e tr o l, The le a d co n te n t i n th e le a d p e tr o l v a r i e s somewhat from perhaps 5 , 1 to 3 , 6 ; so th a t by assuming 3 , 3 we have n o t been w e igh tin g ' 4 the evidence in favour o f one s id e . " | iJ , - . ;' q on page 3 o f yo ur memorandum i n the f i r s t paragraph yo u s a y: j; Moreover le a d t e t r a - e t h y l a p p ea r s t o decom pose v e r y r a p id ly; in th e open and th e t o t a l q u a n tit ie s s p lit a r e p rop ortion ately - ",5 small** Have you don e a n y exp er im en t s on t h a t da co m p o sit io n o f t a t r o - e t h y l le a d ? - --- Te a ; we h a ve don e q u it s a number o f | exp er im en t s fch w it h p u re t e t r a - e t h y l i n p e t r o l, in v a r io u s * p r op or tion s, but th e moat s t r id in g experim en t -- wh ich X ca r r ied out p er son a lly - - was in con n ection w ith cor r osion , X was in t e r e s t e d t o jcaow w h et h er en gin e c y lin d e r s o r p e t r o l tan Xs a r e n o t cor r od ed w it h t h is new fuel* and I p u t va r io u s sam ples o f m eta ls in b o t t le s w it h va r io u s fu e ls and foun d , : , no co r r o s io n , X foun d th e e t h y l p e t r o l decom posed v e r y ^ ^ r a p id ly, fr eq u en tly under the a ctio n o f very moderate h ea t,; ' What t h e d eco m p o sit io n was X do n o t Know, b u t t h e r e .w e r e - v <; d e ^ s i t a on t h e Wialls o f th e b o t t le -- g r e y d e p o s it s arid th e.;; ;V-V ...'. ' ' ,v : / yrSS fu e l i t s e l f appeared to lo s e a l i t t l e o f i t s co lo u r , X cou ld / n ot say ve r y d e fin it e ly on t h a t , q Did you t e s t t h e e ffe c t o f t h e tem p eratu re on th e decom posi t io n a t a l l ? -- Uo, sh o u ld n o t c a l l i t a t e s t , Xt was mor< o b s e r v a t io n . An y co ld s u r fa c e in th e e n gin e a p p ea r s t o r e t a in more o f t h e ch a r a ct e r o f th e o r ig in a l fu e l, n a t u r a lly , than a h ot d u ffa oe. K S 0018367 * / g ** uw v * ky wiiau yo-T ti exjuM^ifu v<t y t}'u'UX% ''lie ..C;::'r:.' .. . .. co n t en t i n t h e le a d p e t r o l v a r ie s somewhat from p er h ap s 3 . 1 ^ ; i'ti t o 3 .6 ; so t h a t b y assum in g 3 , 5 we h a ve n o t been w e ig h t in g th e evid en ce in favou r o f one aide* ! q on page 3 o f yo u r memorandum in t h e f i r s t p a r a gr a p h you aay?| Moreover le a d t e t r a - e t h y l a p p ea r s t o decom pose v e r y r a p id ly! in t h e op en a n i t h e t o t a l q u a n t it ie s s p l i t uro pro p o r t ionat: sm a ll . Have yo u don e a n y exp er im en t s on t h a t d e co m p o s it io n ! o f t e t r o - e t h y l le a d ? -- .To : we h ave done q u it e a number o f exp er im en t s fcfc w it h p u re t e t r a - e t h y l i n p e t z o l, in v a r io u s p rop ortion s, but th e moat s t r id in g experim en t -- wh ich I ca r r ie d out p er son a lly -- was in con n ection w ith corrosion * X was in t e r e s t e d t o xn owwh eth er en gin e c ylin d e r s o r p e t r o l tanXs a r e n o t cor r od ed w it h t h is new fu e^ and X p u t va r iou sr f^ sam ples o f m e t a ls i n b o t t le s w it h v a r io u s fu e ls and fou n d no c o r r o s io n . X fou n d t h e e t h y l p e t r o l decom posed v e r y r a p id ly, freq u en tly under the a ctio n o f very moderate h eat* What t h e d e co m p o sit io n was X do n o t Xnow, b u t t h e r e wer e d ep osits on the w a lls o f the b o t t le -- gr ey d ep osits and th e fu s l i t s e l f appeared to lo s e a l i t t l e o f i t s co lo u r . I cou ld n ot say ve r y d e fin it e ly on th a t . q Lid you t e s t t h e e ffe s t o f t h e tem p eratu re on th e decom posi-, t io n a t a l l ? ~ - So X a h ou ld n o t c a l l i t a t e s t . J t was m ors o b s e r va t io n * An y 0 o ld s u r fa c e i n th e e n gin e a p p ea r s t o r e t a in more o f t h e ch a r a ct e r o f th e o r ig in a l fu e l, n a t u r a lly, t h a n a h o t Au ffa oe* `iK;' J, - q Would you s a y t h a t d ecom p osit io n i s l i X e l y to be in o xid a t io n ? : -- I d o n o t Know, x h a ve r ea d M e llo r on Lea d in co n n e ct io n w it h t h i s wor x, an d foun d t h a t th e co n d it io n s l i v e l y to occu r both in th e en gin es and th e p ip es a r e so com p licated t h a t i t i s ve r y d i f f i c u l t t o r ea ch a n yth in g more th an v e iy g e n e r a l c o n c lu s io n s . Xn th e en gin e c y lin d e r , fo r in s t a n c e ,\ you have an atm osphere r ic h in 0 .0 *, wh ere you g e t le a d , * oxide b et reduced, and ve r y o fte n tteatm osph ere i s I flu c t u a t in g a good d e a l a l s o , X sh o u ld h a ve t h o u gh t t h a t w ,*' *. t h e d e co m p o sit io n o f t h e t e t r a - e t h y l toad -- x am s p e a xin g \ n o t a s a ch em ist b u t from g e n e r a l o b s e r va t io n -- l a \ r a t h e r a b r e a k in g down o f t h e compound. ^ 368 / K /' V ." . - L\ . * " , U ', , -a s -r " v.'.` 7 . ' 7y' ' - \ :?,; v . r. \V y v . f . `V f l' Mr R o well q The p o in t I va r e a l l y w in g t owa r d s was t h is ? wh eth e?| .' ""i* ir th er e is. any dxxgxx t e t r a - e t h yl le a d , t h a t sh ould ge t ' in t o t h e cr a n k ca s e in t o t h e o i l , i t 1 l i v e l y t o r e a ia | lead t e t r a -e t h yl seein g th a t the o il ie ce r ta in to he fa iiSjj - ".; . ' . 'Jr0, ,\. w e ll a e r a t e d , and t h a t i t i s a t a t em p e r a t u r e o f 50 d e g r e e s ! o r so - whether th a t lea d t e t r a -e t h yl is n ot ver y liJ ceiy t f l "become decom posed o r o x id is e d in t o some n o n v o la t i le / fo r m -- Th at i s my im p r e s s io n , in f a c t , a p a r t fr om t h e s t a r t !* 1 co n d itio n s - sta r tlin g in co ld weath er where you m ight g e t li q u id p e t r o l ccm in g down t h e c y lin d e r w a lls in t o t h e c r a n j . ca se - 1 fin d i t ve r y d i f f i c u lt t o im agin e t h e . t e t r a -e t h ylfft g le a d e v e r r e a ch e s t h e cr an k ease}, an d we fou n d j u s t r e c e n t l y ! o n ly one exam ple o f obviou s t o t r a - e t h y l le a d on t h e | c ylin d e r h ea d , and t h a t was due t o th e en gin e hawin g stopped ju s t a ft e r an In d u ction str o ke, so th a t th e liq u id p e t r o l had "been drawn in on t o t h e s u r fa c e "before t h e n e xt fir in g str oke be^ m There is t h a t p o s s ib ilit y o f tetr ar-eth yig le a d in t h e form o f a p e t r o l b e in g e it h e r in t h e cr a n k c a s e o i o r in t h e c ylin d e r h ead? .b u t t h e amount i s e xt r e m e ly s m a ll* ^ ; ph o j *. DIXOK: in vie w o f wh at yo u s a y , would yo u t h in k t h e r e ; , > would b e any more^ danger; in cle a n in g o u t t h e cylin d e r h ead s MS' 0018369 th an In cle a n in g th e o i l tan kT ~-- I ehould n ot li k e t o eay^ S t h a t . The r i s k d ep en d s s o much on t h e ca r e o f t h e man, an d wh eth er h e h a s s m a ll c u t s on h i s h a n d s; b u t I sh ou ld ay t h a t in cle a n in g e n gin e s o u t , e i t h e r in t h e c y lin d e r head o r tine cran k ca se s, th er e is extrem ely l i t t l e need fo r co n ta ct w it iy th e skin * ; /{//i f 'Jrxrfy A . Bht even i f t h e r e wer e co n t a ct w it h t h e s k in , i t i n o t . l e a d t s t r a - e i h y l s e e i n g t h a t t h e o i l i s c e r t a i n t o b f a i r l y a e r a te d , and th a t u -x p a t a te m p e ratu re o f 50 degree o r so - w hether th a t le ad te tr a -e th y l i s no t ve ry li v e ly to become de co m p o s e d. o r o x i d i s e d i n t o 3 0 me n o n - v o l a t i l e fo r m ? ---- Thar, i s -my im p r e ss io n . In f a c t , a p a r t from t h e s t a r t i n g c o n d itio n s - s t a r t i n g in c o ld h e a th e r w here yo u m igh t g e t th e l i q u i d p e t r o l co m in g down t h e c y l i n d e r *ai3fc*i i n t o t h e c r a n k case - 1 fin d i t ve ry d i ff i c u l t to ixsagine the te tr a -e tn y l l e a d e v e r r e a d i e s t h e c r a n k c a s e }, and. u fo u n d j u s t r e c e n t l y o n ly one exam ple o f o bvio us t e t r a -e t h y i le a d on. th e c y l i n d e r he ad. an a t h a t was? due t o t h e e n g i n e h a v i n g stoppe d ju s t a ft e r an in d u ctio n s tro k e , so th a t th e liq u id p e t r o l had 'be e n dra*,m i n o n t o t h e s u r f a c e b e fo r e t h e n e xt f i r i n g s tr o k e be ^an Ih e rs i s t e a t po se id U i t y o f t e t r a - e t h y l le a d in t h e fo rm o f a p e t r o l b e i n g e i t h e r i n t h e c r a n k c a s e oi o r in th e c v iin d e r h e a d ; b u t th e amount i s e x tre m e ly s m a ll. ?H0 y. B UCK: In r is r o f v;hat y o u g a y , w ou ld y o u t h in k t h e r e w ou ld b e an y more d a n ge r in c le a n in g o u t t h e c y lin d e r h e a d s th a n in c le a n in g th e o i l ta n k ? - -- I sh ou ld n o t lik e to say t h a t . The r i a l d e p e n d s s o much on t h e c a r e o f t h e m an , a n d v/ n eth er h e h a s s m a ll c u t s or, n i s h a n d s ; b u t 2 s h o u ld s a y t h a t in cle a n in g e n gin e s o u t , e it h e r in th e cy lin d e r heads o r th e cr an k c a s e s , t h e r e is e xtr e m e ly l i t t l e need fo r co n t a ct with the sk in . 0, Bu t e ve n i f t h e r e w er e c o n t a c t w it h t h e s k i n , i t i s n o t a b s o r b e d in t o t h e s ys t e m o r d i n a r i l y ? ----- I s u p p o s e n o t ; b u t th a t is not ay p r o vin ce . ' Q, I m e a n , c o n t a c t w it h t h e s k in w ou ld n o t m a t t e r u n le s s t h e r e i s le a d e t h y l ? -----Sve n t h e n ;ve do n o t m in d ; we u s e cotton w o< or m utton c lo t h , to w ipe ou t t h e fi n a l t r a c e s . 57 Hr Rowell & i/ P. <zn q I t Is q u ite an easy m atter to olean out th ese d ep osits? -- on ye s * ' : q And t n e d a n ger I s s a id t o b e du e t o t h e d u s t t h a t I s cau sed ? -- - Yes* _ q Take tn e ca s e o f d r y p a in t o ld p a in t , such 4 s la u sed in t h e s e d a ys , you u se a w ip e r t o wip e I t down? -- Yes* q s u r e ly t h a t cou ld h e done In t h e same way in t n e s y lin d e r head? -- Tee, 1 should t h in k s o . I f I t was d u st y, t h e r e i s no more d iffi c u lt y in d u st in g I t than In d u st in g th e flo o r * q q u it e . You co u ld n ot g ive an y fig u r e s a s t o t h e amount o f le a d in t h is d e p o s it in com parison w it h th e amount o f le a d In o ld s c r a p e d - o ff p a in t ? --- I sh o u ld h a ve s a id l e s s ; h u t tnn. X can n ot remember wnat t h e ^ p o sit io n o f p a in t is , X sh ou ld say i t i s g e n e r a lly l e s s on a ccou n t , o f t h e ca r h on . The ca r b on form s a ve r y la r g e b u lk ; h u t i t i s le e s in th e d e p o s it , q le s s in the cylin d er ? - -- A ll through, q What becom es o f t h e o ld p a in t t h a t i s scr a p e d o f f ou r h o u se s? -- - X d o n ot know} in f a c t x h a ve o n ly seen them scr a p ed o ff by b u r n in g a blow lam p, q That i s ou t o f d a t e ; b u t what becom es o f th e o ld p a in t ? . -- - X co u ld n o t sa y* . q Does i t con t a m in a t e t h e workman? I t m igh t I f i t i s d is ca r d e d and i s n ot c a r e fu lly c o lle c t e d ? -- I do n o t know w h e t h e r i t I s b u r n t o r how i t I s d on e. 3 i r ROBERT ROBERTSON: fo llo w in g up an a n swer t h a t you ga ve t o k1** Hr Pye t h a t you d id n o t s e e why t h e r e sh o u ld b e an y undeoomposed le a d t e t r a - e t h y l In th e cran k case o i l , we h a ve h ad some e vid e n ce p u t b e fo r e u s fr om wh ich I t i s q And th e aanger i s ea Id to toe due to th e du s t th a t i s caused? ---* Tee* q Take th e cas e o f dry p a lh t, o ld pain t such 4 s Is used in th e s e d ays , you use a w ipe r to wipe i t down? -- Te s . q Su re ly th a t co uld toe done in th e same way in th e e ylin d e r head? ---- Te e, I should th in k s o . I f i t was d u s ty, th e re i s no more d i f f i c u l t y in d u s tin g i t than in d u s tin g th e f l o o r , q q u ite . You co uld n o t g ive any fi g u r e s as to th e amount o f le a d in t h i s d e p o s it in comparison w ith th e amount o f le a d 5 in o ld s c r a p e d -o ff p a in t? --- x s ho uld have s a id -l e t s tout^.4^: : . to rn . : I cannot remember what th e ^ p o s itio n o f p a in t i s * I s ho uld say; i t i s g e n e r a lly l e s s on a cco u n t.o f th e cartoon. The cartoon : forms a v e r y la rg e b u lk; tout i t i s l e s s in th e d e p o s it, q Le s s in the c ylin d e r? --- A l l thro ugh, q What becomes o f the o ld p a in t th a t i s scrape d o f f our ho us e s ? -- I dp no t know; in f a c t I h3V o n ly seen them scraped o f f toy bu rn in g a blow lamp. Q That i s o u t o f d a te ; tout what becomes o f th e o ld p a in t? ---- I co uld n o t s a y. q Does i t contam inate th e workman? I t m ight i f i t i s d is card e d and i s n o t c a r e fu l ly c o lle c te d ? -- I do n o t know whether i t i s burn t o r how i t i s done. S i r ROBERT R0BBRT30JT: fo llo w in g up an answer th a t you gave . to. ; h r fy e th a t you did n o t se e why th e re s ho uld toe any , undeoomposed le a d t e t r a -e t h y l in th e crank case o i l , we have had some e vide n ce put b e fo re us from which i t i s ; deduced th a t th e re i s in th e crank case o i l a c e r ta in amount o f le a d t e t r a -e t n y l ; would you toe s u rp ris e d to h e ar th a t? .-- > I was* : ... q Tou do n o t know toy any chance th e che m ical p ro ce s s th a t was 0018372 ` 58 sir Rowell u sed "by t h e i n s t i t u t i o n h lch exam in ed t h a t lea d T ~ X un derstan d i t was th e fix e d a n a lysis# q was n ot t h a t u sed sim p ly f o r an a ffir m a t iv e t e s t ? ---- h o , I t h in k n ot* I can n ot sa y trcm p er son a l Kn owledge, Out I u n d e r st a n d t h a t t h e m ethod t h a t I s now u se d i n t h e s e exam in ation s i s t o in s e r t a m in ute fr a c t io n o f le a d and - ta ke a photograph* d p u t i t t h r ou gh t h e s p e ct r o s co p e ? *--- fe e s w t e s t e d i t through photographs* q you t h in k t h a t was n o t u sed a ffir m a t iv e ly ? -- As f a r a s - Z Know* 1 Mr OHAPMAiJ: Th er e i s a st a t em en t h e r e - I t h in K i t i s q u ot ed fr om some Am erican p u b lic a t io n - t h a t && t h e p ea k h ou r s o f . t r a f f i c a con tam in ation o f O.g p a r t s o f carbon m onoxide - * /i p e r 1C,CCC p a r t # o f a i r e x i s t s * . -- t h a t on p age 2? q I b e g yo u r p ar d on : i t i s pn p age ij. o f yo u r p r o o f, t h e f i r s t p a r a gr a p h . - -- Th at i s t a k e n fresa an a u t om ob ile jo u r n a l, and x u n d er sta n d i t h a s b een b a sed on a r e p o r t t o wh ich t h e Chairm an r e fe r r e d t h i s m orn in g* ^ q X fo llo w * Then in t h e n e xt . en ten oe you sa y: u sin g t h i s peals: va lu e a s a m easu r e o f d l l u t ion it -a ka r a ca n b e shown t h a t th e le a d r i s k is n e g lig ib le 0. That o f cou r se i s m erely deduoticm and i s b a s e d , X su p p ose, on th e assu m p tion t h a t le a d would r i s e o r f a l l p ari P a ssu w it h t h e ca r b on m on oxid e. Have you any view s on t h e m a t t e r wh eth er t h e r e would b e any p o s s i b i li t y o f th e le a d in cr e a s in g w h ile t h e carbon m onoxide d im in ish ed , or do you t h in k t h e y would ten d to r i s e and f a l l t o g e t h e r } o r do you t h in k t h e r e would be a t an y moment a I think, n o t. X cannot m y frets personal knowledge, hut X un de rs tan d th a t th e method th a t l a now us e d In th e s e *j ^ exam ination Is to in s e rt a minute fr a c tio n o f le a d and take a photograph. 'J t Put i t through th e spectroscope? Te e ; we te s te d i t , through photograph. ;f q You th in k th a t was not used a ffi r m a t i v e ly ? -- As f a r a s 1 X know. " Mr OHAPMAHs T her e i s a s tate m e n t here - X th in k i t i s quo te d : .. '' . fr o a some American p u b lic a tio n - th a t e t th e peak hours o f . j - t r a f f i c a co n tam in atio n o f O.S p a rts o f o&rbon monoxide - .. ' . .'y ;'i p e r 10 ,0 0 0 p art# o f a i r e x i s t s . -- x t h a t on page a? q X Pe g ^/our pardon: i t i s pn page ip o f yo u r p ro o f, th e f i r s t paragraph . - -- That i s take n frcm an auto m o bile jo u rn a l* and x understand i t ha# h e m bas e d on a re po rt to which th e Chatm an re fe rre d t h i s m orning. ;I ' q x fo li o . . Then in th e n e xt enterics yo u ay: us in g t h i s peak va lu e as & measure o f dH u t ion ,& can be shown t h a t th e le a d r i s k i s n e g l i g i b l e 8. That o f co urs e 1 m erely . de ductio n and i s basdd, I suppose, on th e assum ption th a t le ad would r i s e o r f a l l u r l Passu w ith th e carbon monoxide. Kaye you any view on the m atter whether the re would be any J ; y p o s s i b i l i t y o f the le a d in cre as in g w h ile th e carbon monoxide dim in ish ed, or do you th in k th e y would tend to r i s e and f a l l to g e th e r i o r do yo u th in k th e re would be a t any moment a - preponderance o f th e carbon monoxide owing to i t s g re a te r p r e c i p i ta ti o n and tn e g re a te r tendency o f th e le a d to remain? Ye e t X formed th e vie w th a t the le a d wae so fi n e l y d ivid e d , i t be in g produced in gre a t d ilu tio n , and the amount dilu te d;A; in an eno. rmous q u a n tity o f a i r ; and i t would b 0 0 18 3 74 m K 0018375 // / - (6 Mr Ro w e ll Un ch ar ged , and a v e r y la r g e amount would be a b sor b ed p er h ap s in carbon p a r t ic le s a fter w a r d s, ca r r ie d by water vapour, and I sh ou ld sa y t h a t th e le a d d u st, a s m e t a llic d u st, I s p rob ab ly a ver y sm all p rop or tion . Migh t n o t gome o f i t h e d is ch a r ge d a s le a d p rom id e o r ch lo r id e? -- Tee, x suppose so* q X was won d er in g wh eth er t h e bxcL p a r i P a s s u would go down w it h t h e carbon m onoxide o r wh eth er t h e r e would he a ten d en cy fo r one t o I n cr e a s e w h ile t h e o t h e r was d im in is h in g ? ---- I may g iv e a n i l l u s t r a t i o n ! We h a ve had an en gin e r u n n in g now s in ce J an u ary, and X have looked ve r y c a r e fu lly fo r any sign s o f le a d and fin d n o t r a ce o f le a d o r o f a n yth in g which would su ggest an yth in g a p art fron th e or d in ary. 0 Of cou r se in fa c t what happen s a s t o th e old p a in t i s , I su pp ose, t h a t t h e r e must he a good deal o f le a d d u st ab ou t; and co n sid er a b le q u a n t it ie s o f le a d , X ta ke i t , have a t tim es, o r o ver lon g p er io d s,'b een added to th e a g r icu lt u r a l lan d with th e su p sr-p iiosp h ate manures and t h in gs o f t h a t s o r t ; so t h a t t h e s o i l m ust co n t a in some le a d ; so t h a t i f t h e co n s t a n t e ffe c t o f th e e t h yl p e t r o l were n ot t o In cr ea se m a t e r ia lly t h e amount o f le a d - which m igh t co n c e iva b ly come n o n n a lly in t h e d u st - th en X suppose you would f e e l t h a t t h e r is k ^ would b e a n e g li g i b le on e? --~ X h a ve r ea ch ed t h i s co n clu s io n m o stly on th e e xa m in a t io n ,h a t ch in g t h e two m ech an ics, and t h e d iffe r e n c e between t h e two fin d in g s , a s w e ll a s on gen eral- r ead in g*. ' . Mr CHAPMAM* Thank yo u . S ir WXX.LIAM w iiic o X i I f a c a r ie r u n n in g in a g a r a g e , do you see VMMMU w u q i c r a u u u i 9 U | c t e l u u v t i x i . A C CLU.&t $ A S p r ob a b ly a ver y em ail p r op or tion . %< M igh t n o t s<*ae o f i t h e d is ch a r ge d a s le a d p r om id e o r ch lor id e? -- Tec, Z suppose so . - - -{/AA'Vli x| p q X was won der t a g wh eth er t h e te<L p a r i ,pae.g.U would go down ' ;. r-z-X.7*Xd-' w it h t h e carbon nonox id s o r wh eth er t h e r e would he a ten d en cy fo r one t o in cr e a s e w h ile t h e o t h e r was d it a in is h in g ? ---- I may ~ g iv e a n i l lu s t r a t i o n * We h a ve had an e n gin e r u n n in g now s in ce J an u ary, and X have looked ve r y c a r e fu lly fo r any sign s o f le a d *' and fin d n o t r a ce o f le a d o r o f a n yth in g which would su ggest a n yt h in g a p a r t rrcm t h e o r d in a r y, i'. q Of cou rse in fa c t what happen s a s t o t h e old p a in t i s , I su ppose, t h a t t h e r e must he a good deal o f le a d d u st ab ou t; and co n sid er a b le q u a n t it ie s o f le a d , X ta k e i t , h ave a t tim es or o ver lon g p er io d s, been added to th e a g r icu lt u r a l lan d with th e super-ph osph ate manures and t h in gs o f t h a t s o r t ; so t h a t t h e s o i l m u st c o n t a in some le a d ; so t h a t i f t h e co n s t a n t e ffe c t o f th e e t h yl p e t r o l were n ot t o in cr e a se m a t e r ia lly th e amount o f le a d - which m igh t co n c e iva b ly come n o m a lly in t h e ":vd. u st - t h en I suMp p ose. yo u would f e e l t h a t t h e r i s k. . .i . would b e a n e g li g i b le on e? ---- X h a ve r ea ch ed t i l l s co n clu s io n m o stly on th e exam in ation , watch in g th e two m ech an ics, and th e d iffe r e n ce between th e two fin d in g s , a s w e ll a s on i gen eral read in g. * Mr c h a &s a Mj Thanh yo u . ' S i r WILLIAM wiLLCOX; i f a c a r i s r u n n in g in a g a r a g e , do you se e a n y o f t h e fum es from t h e le a d ; can you t e l l , i f a c a r were run n in g in a ga r a ge, whether e t h yl s p ir it i s b ein g used o r o r d in a r y p e t r o l? ---- I do n o t th in k: s o . q m e fum es a r e n ot v i s i b l e ? -- - x do n ot t h in k s o . Q The f i n e l y d ivid e d le a d i s n ot v i s i b l e ? ---- Oh n o . we h a ve 61 m i Hr Ro well no sign s o f lea d ; th at is q u ite cle a r . Q Witn r egard t o le a d in ve g e t a t io n , is i t th e fa c t t h a t le a d stop s th e growth o f p la n t s and flo w er s? -- I have n ever heard of th at. Ur BRIDGE: You h ave s a id t h a t t h e w a t e r was quit c le a r ? ---- Ye s . ' as ' q Did i t rem ain v e r y lo n g ? ---- Te s: i t r em ain ed / a m in ute qu an tity of lea d ch lorid e. / q Rot much ^ c h lo r id e *-- Oh, a f a i r am ount. m i, 'i q in an e n gin e r u n n in g s lo w ly t h e r e i s g e n e r a lly a t r i p ? -- -Yes,"I4f '1%: ^1 i f it was co ld . / q Th at would co n t a in m ost o f t h e 3%d p e t r o l o r le a d ? Brom ide? As f a r a s a y e xp e r ie n ce go es it - w o u ld co n t a in * , le a d Brom ide. ' q A good d e a l ? ---- T e s . An ot h er d i f f i c u l t y a r i s e s in t h i s way; t h a t you h ave go t t h i s aqu eou s vap ou r com in g down t h e e xh a u st p ip e, p a ssin g through the system , w h ich .is slowly charged w it h t h e le a d , and i t i s a ccu m u la t in g. You ca n n ot mahe d e fin it e statem en ts as to what m ight happen . .. , H r naWXLLBOX: When yo u sa y le a d c h lo r id e , you mean le a d sche elite -- HO, we f frond ve r y li t t le . c o m i n g o fii. . Dr BRIDGE; In t h e e n gin e a s w e ll a s t h e e xh a u st p ip e i t s e l f ? , -- Tes. " -r 'r &r q Th ere wer e la r g e a ccu m u la t io n s t h e r e ? -- Yes? Bu t t h a t i s n ot % o r d in a r ily rem oved; in t h e o r d in a r y way you do n o t t a k e i t ; - away; so t h a t a l l t h a t r e a l ly wou ld happen in an o r d in a r y J P` q M ga r a ge wou ld Be t h e s cr a p in g s o f t h e c y lin d e r h ead arL t h e ^ orank ca se o i l; excep t t h a t th e in sid e of th e s ile n c e r may , Become c o a t e d . . KB 0 0 1 8 3 7 7 ' .- ' .:' V' 0 lU)J0 w iiti ^ v n *i +r.' j p*wmA<w#' 7*w.a - * A i.W H O l P i A i ^ a v o UOV o a Heard of th at* Br BRIDGE: Yo u h a ve s a id t h a t t h e w a t e r was q u it e c le a r ? ---- Ye s . .- as ft Bid i t rem ain v e r y lo n g ? ---- Ye s : i t r em ain ed / a m in u te q u an tity of lea d ch lorid e* -**v * A 4i Not much ' A d h l d r f d e O h , a f a i r am ount. f 9 In an en gin e run nin g slo w ly t h e r e is g e n e r a lly a t r ip ? -- Ye s , i f it was co ld . ft Th at would co n t a in m ost o f t h e N&d p e t r o l o r le a d Brom ide? a s fa r as w exp erien ce goes it*wou ld con ta in le a d Brom ide. *<*'* a a good d e a l ? ---- Ye s . An ot h er d i f f i c u l t y a r i s e s in t h i s way: lh '.IV t h a t you h a r e go t t h i s aqu eou s vap ou r com in g down t h e e xh a u st >: p ip e , p a ssin g th rough th e system , which is slo w ly ch arged . / | with th e lea d , and i t is accu m u latin g. You ca n n ot mahe t\ v46rg 1 d e fin it e statem en ts as to.w h a t m ight happen , f i r WnmWILLBOX: When yo u s a y le a d c h lo r id e , you mean le a d sch eelite f -- No, we ftom d v e iy li t t le . c o m i n g ofi*. r^ Dr BRIDGE: In t h e e n gin e a s w e ll a s t h e e xh a u st p ip e i t s e l f ? , . . ---- Ye s . . ft Th er e wer e la r g e a ccu m u la t io n s t h e r e ? -- Yes} Bu t t h a t i s n ot Via'';-,*/':'' . ' ' . ; r.^rV'-. . ' o r d in a r ily rem oved; in t h e o r d in a r y way you do n o t t a k e i t `^ away; s o t h a t a l l t h a t r e a l l y wou ld happen in a n o r d in a r y .va''if ga r a ge wou ld Be t h e s cr a p in g s o f t h e c y lin d e r h ead and t h e oranfc ca s e o i l ; e xce p t t h a t t h e in s id e o f t h e s i le n c e r may : Become c o a t e d . ^ fM ft Bu t t h a t wou ld Be t h e main so u r ce in t h i s ca s e : c le a n in g out* t h e e xh a u st p ip e ? -- - I do n o t sa y t h a t wou ld Be t h e m ain so u r ce o f r is E : 1 t h in K t h e v e n t i l a t i o n would Be t h e m ain U ' ' . _. . . . ; '' .p oin t 4 r; 61 Kr 0018378 4* Mr Ro w a n fit I m e a n , fr om t i w p o in t o f vie w o f le a d . ----- The c le a n in g ? q Ye s . ----- Then t h e cr a n k ca s e o i l o r t h e d e p o s it s on th e ou tsid e o f th e cr an k c a s e , i f th er e was a le a k in g j o i n t a n d i f t h e n an w e r e c a r e le s s o r h a h a cut- h a n d - I t h in k t h a t r sm ain s. q W h y ?----- Th a t i s m o re o r l e a s a d m i t t e d . q Th e b u s t , y o u n a a n ? ----- h o , i am s p e a k i n g o f t h e a c t u a l e th y l p e tr o l: a s to tne o iie n co r bust and so o n , I ho n o t th in k th e r e w ould ho a r is k at. a i l . o Th a t i s f i n e d u e t ? ----- `f a s , h u t i t i s i n f l a k e s . The re w o uld n o t ho v e r y much l u s t , 4 i am t h i n k i n g o f p i s K w he re t h e r e w o u ld h e d u s t p u r e l y . I .am l e a v i n g o u t t h e q u e s t i o n o f l e a d - p u r e l y d u s t . ----- v.rs l l , a s f a r a s my memory s e r v e s m e , in t a k i n g down o ne s i l e n c e r w h ich had 2 19 grams d e p o s it, th a t was ra th e r d u s tv in p a r t s , h u t th e h u lk o f I t was he avy fl a k e s , he avy o i l . I t w as n o t n e a r t o y o u ? ----- IP ', h u t t h e r e 'would. t o j u s t s l i g h t r i s k when y o u to o k tip t h i n g dow n; t h a t m ig h t a r is e ov the attem pt to g e t the s iis n c *r open. Th a t i s a n u n u s u a l t h i n g ? ----- Ye s * CHAIRMAN: Thank you . (The w it n e ss with d r ew). 0018379