Document vBekBeaRXoJo0vNdG4qq0XX1q

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT 1 TWENTIETH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF ILLINOIS ST. CLAIR COUNTY 2 3 FRANCES E. KEMNER, et al., 4 Plaintiffs, 5 6 v. MONSANTO COMPANY, 7 Defendant. 8 ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) CAUSE NO. 80-L-970 9 10 REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS Before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. GOLDENHERSH. 11 12 Testimony of Dr. George Roush 13 July 23, 1985 14 15 16 APPEARANCES! (Afternoon proceedings only) 17 MR. REX CARR, Attorney at Law, and MR. JEROME SEIGFREID, Attorney at Lav, 18 On behalf of the Plaintiffs; 19 MR. KENNETH R. HEINEMAN, Attorney at Law, and MR. JOSEPH NASSIF, Attorney at Lav, 20 On behalf of the Defendant. 21 22 23 PATRICIA A. GANDY, CSR, RPR 24 Official Court Reporter 1 INDEX 2 WITNESSES: 3 DR. GEORGE ROUSH 4 Clarification Examination by Mr. Helneman ......... 8 5 6 7 EXHIBITS: Marked Offered Admitte 8 Defendant'a 915 19 9 Defendant'8 916 21 10 Defendant'a 917 23 11 Defendant*a 918 24 12 Defendant*a 919 25 13 Defendant18 920 28 14 15 16 IN CHAMBERS CONFERENCES HELD ON PAGES 2 AND 79 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 1 BE IT REMEMBERED AND CERTIFIED, that heretofore, on 2 to-wit: July 23, 1985, the matter as hereinbefore set forth 3 came on for hearing before the Honorable Richard P. Goldenherah, 4 Circuit Judge, Twentieth Judicial Circuit, State of Illinois, 5 and the following matter was had of record, to-wit: 6 7 (The following proceedings were held In chambers.) 8 MR. HEINEMAN: Tour Honor, for the record, In light of 9 the Court's ruling this morning and the basis for Mr. Carr's 10 objection, I asked George Roush to call out to Monsanto at the 11 lunch hour to find out whether Indeed this program of putting 12 the two, the data from the two tests together and running It and 13 analysing It had ever been done before he began his testimony 14 on July the 8th. He Informed me that he talked to Bill Gaffey 15 at Monsanto and learned that Indeed It had not been done before. 16 I think he had speculated on the stand that it was possible that 17 It could have been done In connection with the Nltro case. He 18 has learned that It was not done in connection with the Nltro 19 case, that the first time that those two sets of data had been 20 put together In the program was In July after he began to 21 testify 22 THE COURT: When after he began to testify, do you know? 23 Do you have a date, or was It just after he began to testify? 24 MR. HEINEMAN: Well, it would be-- I 'm just trying to 1 think of the date it was raised with him* I don't know, I d o n 't 2 have an answer to that. I can give the Court a pretty good 3 approximation as to when it was done. 4 THE COURT: That's fine. 5 MR. HEIHEMAH: And it would have been within a few days 6 after it was first brought up by Mr. Carr in examining him and 7 combining the two, which I~think occurred around the 8th or 10th 8 of July. 'r ; 9 THE COURT: Okay, all right. T h a t 1s fine. Go ahead, 1 10 just wanted to clarify that point. 11 MR. HEXNEMAN: Based upon that,.the fact that It has not 12 been used before, it couldn't have been, turned over to Mr. Carr* 13 in the prior discovery, because It hadn't been done before, and 14 therefore we would ask that the Court reconsider Its ruling and 15 permit us to go into it, permit-- I would ask the Court to recons 16 Its ruling and permit.us.to question ,D r . ,Roush on this computer \ : '1 V ? \ "* 17 printout that'we .had marked as.an exhibit this morning. 18 THE COURT: Mr.. Carr,.what Is your position? 19 MR. CARR: ^ Two things.7 First of' all, the statement that 20 Roush has given us now that the talked to somebody at the plant 21 is not probative and it is not something this Court can consider 22 as to whether or not this document did or did not exist. That 23 person who made that statement Is not here and is not subject 24 to cross examination and It Is not even the person that Dr. Rous i ' r. 1 saidrthis .morning was the one that did It . Be said this-morning ,2'/} Strauss wag the one that, did it, and, he talked; to somebody by th " >1 ' / 1 r * ' * ' r ,r 3 , name of Gaffey .they are not even the .same -individuals And further, 'even I f .they- could have some -way. laid ;a predicate that 5 It was created,at the time that we brought this matter to them, 6 . we should-have been furnished a copy of it' when It, was created -7 ' prior to vtheir bringing-lit Into Court, and the person that created 'the'document isi not here. , Dr..vRoush did not create the 9 document-. .Be, had to go to Gaffey to find out. uhen tt wae created. 10 He did' t , and he ..testified, yesterday that Gaffey created it . 11/ I've checked the values, ,n. th Gaffey;exhibit,that counsel 2 offered .yesterday. Roush swore under oath< that Gaffey did it, ,4 ' 1 J* , '^ " '- , ' ( - ^` f 1 "- r J* ' - ', , ^ - `I - , _ . +* ' * 13 and'th values on.that'handwritten paper that 1 got yesterday is 14 exactly the sane/s the value' on this computer study that Straus 15 v created,',so the 'person. that^made ;the;-computer study IS' the 1perso '' -- ;'* 'i-..,- 1,~i { *** ,>''< Y`' i/ ;', ' f' . ' '' .- ' i w 7;, % fl f^" L 6V that needs- to ^b* here ;t d 'lay :>theiifiindation for that. / V' " .^ r ' V ** . .4 ' >. 17 * 18 ' 19 ^ , I have a lot of; questiOns/to ask as to ..what' they put 1 I^ I rl I k - '` '-i* - ' 4 A- ** i JI' r 'r d1 ^ F 1 L. , ' A 'fi ^ ^ y !r i, r -^ \ * J * -J ,1 ,' j * ^j * ^ ^ t" '&.VtHat'-c0apu,tver^ what they a d d e d V w h a t they' `deleted'^ before- any, \ `c r ,. -V.- - . such- documentcould *corne 1into, evidence;' ' This person did not... ., J a *`J :A. V , -V, , . , ' J - 20 ,,' 21 produce It, '.he`.did . " J L > ' -, , 1 J, '` V i r1 k i -< > that somebody else not create.I t , he pushed - . r , - ' ,.,r - " '. r , . .* * r -' . " * * -A * 1 * ^ t put ,ln the computer* , > r a'button ,`^ for somethi|ng n' ; ' 22 - THE COURT:, Any short reply? ;. ' . 'v 23 '1 MR. HE INEMAN: 1: T e s , '.sir' T h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g l have la, ; 24' that indeed-the data which Mr. Carr agrees ls.the^.same data that PENG AD CO.! DAYONNEl N.J. 07002 FORM 'll" 24B 1 he has was Input-- 2 ME. CARR: Stop a moment. I agree that the two document 3 that you were referring to was data that 1 was given, period. 4 What was put In that computer study, I have absolutely no 5 knowledge of, the list of 122 people that were In the accident, 6 you gave that to me, I have that, I have the other document 7 that you gave me. 8 THE COURT: Well, go ahead. 9 MR. HEINEMAN: The other data that I would have gone on 10 to demonstrate that you also had was the data In support of the 11 Zack/Gaffey study which was also put in. In other words, as I 12 understand It-- 13 THE COURT: I understand what you are saying. I am 14 assuming for the sake of this argument that that is so. Tou may 15 continue with your argument. 16 MR. HEINEMAN: That data Is In It. The program which Is 17 a publicly available program as I understand it, this Marsh and 18 this Monson thing are publicly available, was used by Marcy 19 Strauss and Bill Gaffey to run this combined analysis of the raw 20 data for the first time on the occasion that I estimated for 21 you before, sometime probably around the 9th or 10th of July. 22 When we asked Dr. Roush to testify about It yesterday morning, 23 all he had with him was the note, the report that Bill Gaffey 24 had prepared from that first run. When that was objected to and 1 sustained by the Court we then had G e o r g e g o out and run It 2 himself so he could come in with his .own report with his own 3 computer run to determine what the computer said those two stud! 4 should look like if they were indeed combined, taking into accou 5 the adjustment for age and date of death as he testified to on 6 Monday. And that is what he did yesterday afternoon, that's the 7 document that he brought to Court this morning. 8 THE COURT: Teah, X understand the difference between th 9 two documents. 10 MR. HEIHEMAH: All right, I wasn't sure that-- 11 THE COURT: Yesterday it was run ,by Gaffey and today it 12 was run by Roush? 13 MR. HEINEMAM: Right. ' , : -` i ,v - \'V . -- fF . -, ' *; 14 THE COURT;: After appropriate booting up to get the prog 15 and then printing it out., 16 `^ \ l' * M R , HEINEMAN: How, our p o s i t i o n `is that we would want 17 the Court to, well, aaVX. said.before, to change its ruling, to ' .v . rV - ; ' \ ^ 18 permit.Dr. Roush to testify about what that document shows on 19 the grounds that it isn't something that we've kept from Mr. 20 Carr, because it wasn't created until just a few days ago. 21 THE COURT: Okay. My ruling stays the same. X think 22 on-both of the points that you raised, Mr. Carr, my ruling was 23 correct and also I would note that calling up a program and 24 getting a printed out result is a lot different than actually 1 putting the program In, programming in the data, determining th 2 way In which the data Is going to be handled in, the computer an 3 programming -a format, for an outcome, choosing the parameters of 4 the use of the data and the criteria* All of-those re a lot 5 different than calling up an already completed program and 6 printing out your own response on that, so there Is a qualitatl 7 difference between the two, I think, on both points that you 8 raised by argument was' correct. We have all our', jurors here* 9 MR. CARR: You meant to say ruling, X believe. 10 THE COURT: No, the argument you made, and I think it 11 supports the ruling that I madev* If; you wish to do any offer 12 ' V/ , 1 1 *, of proof, we will do it ufter Court .since we.have all our juror 13 here, we will go back into Court .at,this time. ' . . / : _ ' -s '' ' 14 MR*. HEINEHAN:. Now, can I ask this of the Court? On 15 an offer of proof,- will, you ,permit,--testimony from the witness, ; ' *- *' *< ''3 i 16 or will you Insist upon it to be done by me In chambers? 17 THE COURT: I would insist that it be done by you In 18 chambers. 19 MR* HEINEMAN: You will not permit me to have the wltnec 20 testify as to what h e 1would have testified to? 21 THE COURT: Do you have, any objection to that? 22 MR. CARR: I don't care. They can make their offer of 23, proof.any way they want* ' .1. _ -i , 24 THE COURT: Without objection, then, you can have it by I testimony if you wish. That testimony will'be subject .to cross 2 examination you realize that? 3 MR. HEINEMAN: Ota hmm. 4 TEE COURT: Okay fine. You can do it however you wish. 5 6 7 (The following proceedings were held in . J *L L open Court.); __ ' / : . V '! ' I' ' CLARIFICATION EXAMINATION 8 : ^ BY- MR. ,HEINEMAN' 9 Q Dr. Roush do you still have before you the J. Linn 10 * 'J i 3 * f1 ^ document that we were looking at before the luncheon break? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q .And what is that exhibit number sir? 13 A 1494. 14 Q I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. IS A 1494. 16 Q Now, sir, that document reflects, does it not, the 17 scope of the work that was going to be performed pursuant to 18 the document, does it not ? 19 A - Y o b , sir. 20 Q I'm referring specifically, I believe, to the third page 21 of it. I'm sorry, the second, well, it is the third page of 22 the exhibit, it's Page 2 on the top. 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q Now, before lunch you were talking about the fact that 1V % . , "" y '` ^ l" -- 1 . J, ,, * one of the things they were going to do would bo to take\off the insulation is/that right?, r 1' ' * A. - Yea*'., sir,' * . V \ ' . ^ "* ,1 ^ . 5, 6 7 -j ' Q . ^As a^matter of factf>in addition to that they wore to" 'j\J ; ' \" ` ^ 1- * ' 'k*' 'T' ,,1j;'*i . .` r */ , >, ~ . , .y ,- f ' ' j ,, actually, dismantle' and In. a, sense dismember the ^equipment itself were they not? ; J / >. , ^ v ' -i " %':r' /A Yes, .sir. /- ' / ' y.-.'. ^ ^ _V , Q ..As s m atter of fact, .the page that ! have reference tp talks about cutting it tp stee1 milI specificatlon9,/rendering:/ \ 10. 11 i | .12 1^ \ 14 15 16 ' 17 ' 18 19 It; nontisable damaging *It, beyond repair /correct?.' ,A Yes,- /sir, - / ^ _VJ;' ",;t'i - , ;vi*'' . ` V' /< 1 ' */ ' - V* V ' `; `' 1. V ; : V .'/> '. ' k ; Q .Where it-'would be ^transported-to Luria Brothers and - '-r# *1 ^ >;X' v-v\ /. ;? i5 . -`"i./' .: / * Company of Granite^ City b'. be^melied..,down,-'is that right sir? -U.i.i ... -L A ; Yes, sir^ ' - . , ' -T.. L ,s -ii, /. 'T-k '-fl ''1 : - *- l ` '-'t ;*, :r--'rr K j-rA * L ' 'v- '' 1 t .k r ' Q . Now* you. mentioned^before lunch/sir, that shy dlozlns ^ ' ' * / \J * ^ vf # r m* % i' ^ A i- ;' j- . - ' ^ ' ` ' X. r+ ' 1 J1 -V' j * " !. that were In e'slstence in the .still pot would be .more concentraited ' ,f did' you not,- sir? A'J .V A 1V ' '*r S - ' . w *V: ^ A ; Ye s ( ;'8ir.' " V " ' * * .^ ` k .^" `^ 7 . .Q -.And how was It that the. stlll:pot was emptied, at the , 20 plant? . /... " ' ;* - V x Y ` - ' ./>' ' , - 21 A . Weli',v since .this, i s .a place .for collecting the residues* .22 <jj[ ' 23 from time to time-after a^ number of productions of ;the chlorophchols k\ t f` i r *. ' ' I''.'- C^ it would be ,a "gradually accumulation of residues, and' it .would 24* have to be -taken out so* they-had to have- someLway that they BAYONNE; .N .J. 07002 J 10 A i had a valve that they took off and .took, it Is sosto container -2.; " .3 :for, disposal. , - .- \ L, 1. * . . - ' - '' ' ., - ( Q . So they would, take it from the-still pot to s valve to - 4 a residue tank? ; ' *_ -- 1^ ' *" -T A * ji Yea. " ^ r. ( , ^ *" > * . ' * . * '* , r' " ' ' /` 6 ' Q, Now 'because of ,t h e 'pture of *the dioxins in the still ' ''' 7'. vpot vetBUfl^ttie nature of 'the dioxins .that might be fond in the ; /*V, ' * 7- ^ . - . ' r . ` -. ( '8." product,Itslf, would there'.need to be a. difference in the -& V 9 10' L .j l - 12 13 14 warnings 'giye n .between disassembling the still pot on th one t^ ^ 1* ^ - 1 ~~ s i "t* ' hand-and dealing with the product itself?- - ^ ^ \ r* -v r r * r. ^- - 1r t , *1 1 [j ,^ * f t .J " * ^ V ^i -r r -h J i,:j* \- t t * , -i, -'" A' ! .Wh",en'.r jw\e haf-d *a .s-jpV-ill,l-f; oft->th,e .pvr;odu,,cv-t Itsel-f-. we -w.ould use 1 V\-' ' '<-.*"KU 5'vv,: *" 1 \ - - ' \ , I { ' * I , ,,' ' *> ' 4* .* !* 1 1 -, '' ' r r* \ ' : * , the same kind^ of prbtectiVe gear to protct the men as we are ' P1 ^ . L" V 1 ' V j - '* FjW '_ H- - recommending,here for the...cleanup of the still bottoms^ so we Y y, V'x-'1 ,;r / w r'" . - use protctionV-vbutC the protection -was primarily because of the 15 fact/that these ^things ^ar^e terribly irritating and can produce _ \ " l- :- .v X' ' i i' U 'v ;S % ' ; '** , ;, ^ 16` raction in the,' w o r k e r T h e y can produce overe:skin: lesions \ 17- and burns and blisters, so that's the;reason we had to make sure BAYONNE, N,J, 18'. that t h e y rwere not, bei n g Yexposed to.this material. So we had 19' been doing-this for ,years and,every cleanup was,, treated just 20 21- ` . 22- 23 24 ^exactly as-by the. procedure, outlined here. '-But there is,- the L " ;/ 'r ``v-v. ,L 1 ^ 'f': , y . ,r. V 1 added problem here that there-are residues in the residue tank -V*f -a rL ;J ; v ;^ and the concentration of dioxin ,would''be. higher there and so. j 1r ! - l * iv 1 -v there is n additional warning about*th presence of dioxin. .Q Sir, I'd -like to hand you next -Plaintiff's/Exhlblt 1436. 1 You recall discussing that article with Mr* Carr, do you, sir? 2 A Yes, sir, - 3 Q This Is the portion of a, well, it's Chapter 19 of a 4 book, apparently, is it not? 5 A Yea, sir. ,,, 6 Q And this is the one by Arnold Schecter and a hoot f 7, other authors relating to the Blnghampton fire episode, is that 8 right? ./ 9 A Yes, sir, ' ,, 10. Q Now, aa X recall, sir, if I can direct your attention I 't , .i ;, LV ^ ;'C 11 J I J f ; 1 ''J " to Page 249, do you haye: t h a t s i r ? t; . S 4* 4 r ,r 12 . Yes, sir, r ' ,jr; 13 Q . There ia a statement in ,there .relating to the amount of 14 contaminanto found In the soot, d o y o u s e e that, sir? -; j " V *j- i ` 15 A ' Yea,' 16 Q Would you read that first sentence of that second.full 17 paragraph that talks about those contamination levels? 18 A "The Blnghampton soot y a s Initially found to have 19 100,000,000 parts per billion of FCBs as Aroclor 1254, 50,000 20 ppb of biphenylenes, 20,000 ppb of polychlorinated dibensofurano 21 FCDF, and 10,000 ppb of polychlorinated dibensb-para-dioxins, 22 PCDD." ( 23 Q All right, sir. Now,, is there any place In this docuraen 24 that you recall in which the polychlorinated dlbensodloxlns foun 1 at 10,000 parts per billion were identified as 2,3,7,8 TCDD? 2 A 1 think there was. 3 Q ^ In this document*.sir? 4 A Yes. Mo, It was the.furans, I think, that were 2,3,7*3. 5 . Q Now* If I could direct your attention to Page 251, sir. 6 Hr. Carr was asking you about this page, and the prior page 7 relating to three patients* A, B,.and C* correct?' 8 A Yes/* sir. ;* 9 Q These were popple upon whom liver biopsies had been 10 done? j ' '. r. .'V [;. ^ r* ' t; I I J - *` 1 ` i.-' . *`L 11 - 'V?* r fy 11 A Yes* sir. 12 Q And these were people who, as to whom In this report 13 there Is no mention.of finding chloracne* correct? 1 : >* ^/ *J ; ' ^ '* "i FV r ' * , r `ir r *: ; 14 A Yes* sir. 15 Q And the discussion\bptween you and Mr. Carr as I recall 16 had to do with whether or not it was necessary to find chloracne 17 before there could be other conditions that would appear. 18 A Yes, sir. r. 19 Q Do you recall that* sir? Now* what are the Isomers of* 20 dioxin that produce chloracne? 21 A The 2*3*7,8, the tetrachlorodibonsodioxln. I don't know 22 whether the other Isomers have been shown to.produce chloracne 23 or not. I don't think.they have. 24 Q You mean the other tptra isomers? 13 S * + ' " *" ,* j , - U < .* **1^. ^ ,4< * 1* 1 ^ i* h ly "J; A .. Right / the other tetr.as The hexachlorodibonsodioxinsi \ 2 y some of theta^will produce chloracne* rand7 the Jheptasjprobably;-: 3; do, but to a.tauch lesser extenta and the oct as do, n o t . - / 'X , - ry .<$ CSo' which*--dopentachlorodibensodioxinc produce chloracne '5 ' .a I don't know; ' v . . r^ - _t Vs I t b > 6' 7r;, ; Q\,, A 11 .righ t * but y our-tet ra*.certanly 2,3,7,8 doea?' 1 ' T" y ` iT r . "" r V, r., , rJ, , , rJ I . - A Y e s * '.sir \ >/ r ` ^ -'/ '> r , r 8/ > 9:\ r V *r Q You know that hasg ,does,,?. ^,7/ y y / 7 ", yy/ .77 '7 /' ` J-` - , /; If Uy / * \ / i t'f' -;/VY V N ^ f i y " ' ' V y--7' -y f; :-A_ SofflsB'| p ^ l t h e r a . U ^ p . 3/-.^; ' , ; - /vr ' ^lOf i 'r';f Right.,/,It is, tha.hexas.that are found i n !pentachlorov \ ` r ''tr * v-i ,'A tfy- -..,,I.v*// ' s ` v`. -, - .;/ 7 ' '- *-. '' . : : : 1.1 phenol? / )Lr ( i V i r'' , ` A> t '* v /' ^ ** .`ll* ' rt , ' 13 1 14, 15 >'Right-. '; -. *tfi s; /;; " -' 1 ->,"<v * t- n-`-- \Ji <<- ' *;-',;i'-y*,'?i-ri---*j-jviii'-,v-i./yi?-ifv ,,*;^y i,-.-v/1,-?y-;s..v^ - . ; ^' ,--- v> : y;r QJ, .To what, extent do the heptao produce chloracne? , .y, / ^* r- ^ ij `T* VJ"" \*jk.- ^ ^J 'V 4 ^ JJ-> ''m ^ t 1 -T \ ; r4- i ' ' ' * 1 ' *v r %t- ,A ' 1 think they do,ybut,to a much ^lesser extent.. It takes ' -;:/ 'V* \ 'y,`- `'^.7 ` ` * *W i ' * - r.. ' / -: g good, sited dose in .order',tp produce .chloracne in the heptas. 16 y Q^ - 17 f , `-A- And the octaa do not? - '/":7 `'"v- - -V-" `V .y '''; ' 1y " k ,J'; Right. v>": rM' -- " f ^ y'-;r, -.l.-: *;/,/ _ ^ L;V `?,y '>- r`j 7 18 , 19 -,/11 Q J ;If you ;look an Pag 251, air , you see that :there were "7 - , -rm ^: - */ t s* * % ^^ fat biopsies; done ` ; y ; r^'* ' - 'r `` ' " S - !T - " 7 .r - . 1 I- ^ J -"r ,, ' *V* h ' V* ^ r } \ fc * ' - ,t onyeach- of :these_patlentsV do y o u n o t ? y ; 'v* y ( y . ^ ;/' ' ,v ;:y .. 'y v ^i '> 20 . A Y i * sir. " 1 'i;' " 21 r'V,.. Q y There was a fat biopsy done on Pattent A in vhich they . 22 : found heptachlorinated dibenzodioxins at 130;parts' per trillion 23 ' yand oc ta at 300 part arper /tr 1111 o n , correct, sir?, / ? \:7. 24 '`A, -'Yes* sir.'.; ; ,7' : r 7-7 - J-. '-'1 ,JV/v. y ,,' 7^'/.:' 7 . ^jryr ' 'L_' y.\F': ' y \7'y'7^ V ,,' ,r "Vr `FORM IL 24 8 vy 14 .i , Q T he r e was no t e t r a - f ound? ' 2r . A N o ' ' . ; ' . * \' ;* -3 Q Nov , .w o u ld 130 p a r t a k e r t r i l l i o n o f' h e p ta and a n y l e v e l 4" o f o c t a . ,c a u s e c h io r a c n e , sir? ^ . J . . ' 5 A " I c a n 't r e la t e t h is to. w hether they' get c h lo ra c n e , because 6 ; t h i s . i s a s fo u n d i n , f a t , and X c a n ' t r e l a t e ' i t b a c k t o , we w ould -- >-; ,8- -V, '9 10 ii, 12 h ave to lo o k vat t h e i r e xp o su re le v e ls r a t h e r th a n how much was \ '' V y i i n t h e f a t ; i - ; J' P \ tr! V ) if '/ " ->. , ,,* l . ; 1 U i P 'u (l y ' i ~ y ."/ Q - A l l r i g h t , Th e e x p o s u r e l e v e l s do n o t c a t e g o r iz e ';V/ r / '. d ib e n s o d io x in s b y / :'i a o s ie r,;\ d o f t h e y ( s i r ? " "Iv' th e.r A V' r q No; v B ir* , L ^` , . . ` 'v i-'i y '`y r- - \ i / / ; i So t h a t ; a l l i t ''s a y iv :i ? : 13 maybe I've,overlooked it, all,.I can-see is that.the- dioxins are ' 14 ' *J 4 15. k S. ' 16 identified as-polychlorinated? t A (Yes,--sir'.. '* -r fr- ^ Q (Which .could be any-number over one/ Correct? .1 . 'V ;A Yes/ sir. ' i r ^ .-*" - > 18 ' ^ Q So there Isn,' t anything to tell you ^whether -or not they 9 J L V 20 ' 21 were .exposed .'to'.'nny tetrae ,, is- there, air? '' . ; A 1 No, sir. 1 , m ,H S n ' " * ' L * F ` , * >t , h . v-./ * , L `' >r,, <. r *1 `` ^r, T t , ,' JQ ;Now,"there was another article that Mr;'Carr referred 22 . to, 1 think it'a 1 4 3 7 . L e t me hand you what'a been m a r k e d 1 23 ' Plaintiff 's Exhibit 1437 and ,ask you to look, at the first page '1 -24 of it there, sir* Do -you see that? . , ' '5 , , ' *J \ ` -9 " . -' r, Do.you remember; discussing t^ "j , " r, . ; 'T r> r -. ^ jr FORM IL 24 5 1 .this -article with Mr Carr? 2 A I remember the article, but I don't remember discussing 3 it. J . 4 Q All right It was in this article, X believe that he 5 p o l n t e d o u t a statement that 2,3,7,8 TCDD was found'in the soot 6 at 28 parts per million r i';i' r 7 A Yes, .sir'-,. V v \r * ! l * * ; r ! t Jf '- f ,m , 1 8 Q Do you recall that, sir? And there Is a reference' to ' ' '. ` \. ' ;v i \ .* .' 9 Smith, et nl.p io there, not, sir? . - . 10 A Yes; sir. 11 . . i y.', ' 'i. Q Ok a y , dated 1982?, J 12 A rYes,.air. L 13 Q Now, sir, if indeed eomeone had been exposed to soot 14' containing 2.8 parts per million of 2,3,7,8 TCDD, based upon 15 the other information we have been looking at, would It be 16 possible that that dose could be Insufficient to cause chloraene 17 A Y e s ,,si r 18 Q In any event, those dioxins which were found in their 1? fat were heptas and octas, correct? 20 A I'm not sure it was In each one of them. 21 Q ' Nell, let. me direct your attention again to Page 251, si 22 of Exhibit 1436 23' A Right. 24 Q And you will see for .Patient A at the top of the page, 16 ; ,lt saya the levais that I Just read to you earlier?, 1 ** ? 1 `. 1 2y Right .:', ` r '-3;' Q . For Patient B at the .end of the. second paragraph, it 4 ss,; nXhl0 patient's fat biopsy revealed 1500 parts per trilllo 5r 6^ 7, 8 .9 10 heptachlorinated dibenzofurans and 1406/perte par,trillion ,' 1 -` ` . * r * * *. 'i w T- I* '/'V j \ r , _^ .l . jP ^r ", * ^ J -' -, i ' ; >'/ 'j octachlorinatedfdibensodioxins, ^correct? L `' , -, ** ' r M iy ' y ^ lf 'y V* ' , A. - Yes, B it. I 1, J' * X f . ' v --J L . rf" f\ < g. _ . i V J i,i` l -t " , 'A .i J ' t i d , Q . So he didn't'get/anyyhepttidioxins " -v : ** * i " j _ je * V- L v '" - * h, ' "' -r A F " > S` ' 1* were found in his fat? . '` ' L* " I' ' -, . at all, , r ' -F ' '. at > L -f ,J -r , -, . J , least none \ -- ' ' \ ; <}:ii`-f7 Tc'*.it H / \ i -v, -.t v'( -- i! vn t* .- - .J' v ' -j. -* n '= A ,Any, what? " .; k ' / " ,- 11 Q, Any hOptadioxino.. i , ;\ J v- 12 i ;j- 'A .No `' - , r ,f y ' , y * J l y' * ./ ' ' , ' y t ' -`'v . ; . - - 13 ,.Q` None were found in tils fat? 14, A , Ttiat;*s right.' v - `v^ 15 Q ; The"only clioxln,found In his fat is not a chloracnogen? 16; \ -;A Ttiat 'o right. f,; /*. r - ' :'/ 'v-'' n ' 17 J Q W o u l d not cause chiotacne? ' C 1 ;.` f ' ' 18 ' 'A ' That's right. , * / ** ^ : 'V 1 19; Q In ttie^ f irst; can.'fi fat, there-were some heptachlorinated 20^ dioKine; found, and .maybe heptaa cause chloracne? r 21 . , A / T e a . l ; ./ \ ** 1; y \ 22 Q r'In the'third,man's'fat, which 1 found at ;the bottom 23 " Z >- - - , i .. ' . " ' - ! ^ :^ . of-the page, again there were heptadioxinefoundand octadloxlnt i. *r . - 1 1 " ., \ >. " ' . i r * ' ,f -1 ^ *s ,, . * 24 -found in his tfat, correct.?- ' `, 1 y BArONNEt N.J.'07001 1 A Right. 2 Q No ttras or pentes or hexes? 3 Right. 4 Q In the fat? So the octa would not cause chiotacne, voul S it, sir? ' ' 1, r ^' 6 A No. ` r' \ li ` ` 7 Q And th hepta might,^but you don't know what level he 8' was actually exposed to, do you, sir? 9 A No, sirV ' ;`/ 10 Q Now, based upon the Information that you have both in 11 Exhibit 1436 and 1437, la ,lt reasonable based upon that informt 12 that none of these three people had chloracne? 13 A Yes, and not due to Lioxln. 14 Q What do you mean by "not due to dioxin", sir? 15 A We do have PCBs t h a t a r e known to be chloracnogenlc, 16 at least whether that does It by Itself or whether It Is the 17 dibenzofurans that were here at higher concentrations and we 18 do n 't know the isomers of these either, except we do have that 19 one definition that they did.find 2,3,7,8 dlben2 o-- tetrachloro- 20 dlbenzofuran, which could well be chloracnogenlc. 21 Q They found a 2,3,7,8 ,furan? 22 A Right. -* 23 Q Not a dioxin? 24 A Right. . , ` ' % %" .4- ; A b^ 13 1 `2 *-r ' i 3 : '* Q A ll rig h t, s ir . te n p e rc e n t, w a sn 't, it ? .*' - , - A r Y e s , s i r * ^ How, t h e - P C S 'e x p o s u re - le v e l, v a s : i t ^ ' -\ S ' J L" '*l \ L ; 1,* r ' " i ` 4 . Q Ten m illio n * p a rts ip e r/ b tllio h ? ;/ / ' $ -_l } : ;:/*>. f i ' } i V*. ' J1 ' t , ' ``5 -i A R i g h t ; ? _ F\ . 6' . _Q,; D o /y o u : know;, . - s l r y w h e t tie r; o r n o t K `r ~ , - ` ' ^ ' ' IV V J/ 1\ i 1 ' ^ ( 'r't l `. 'V* . . ; f-; * ?->>\ * *" } T ? ' 7. t h e sy m p to m s t h a t w e r e r e v e a l e d b y t h e s e _-L- PCBs can ' ca u se -any o f ' p e o p le ? , ' \ ' - : . ,> 8_/ ; \ " - : k Th ese a re /G U c h ^ h lg h .c b n c Q n tra tlo n so f P C B s, i t ' s hard 9' f o r me t o *. / sa y w h at'w o u ld happen at su ch , levels^ such as th is , \. 1\0K\ with th e :1 J, 1 i 1 fu ran s 1' k Ji,, as h ig h / a s 1th e y ^vF^ p' _ * w ere, ' *i 1- . 4 ^ 1^ . / : - v .11 ' 'V- :.7 >Q-V . The ; fu ra n s w ere ;a t . t p ercen t^ i s th a t r ig h t ? . ' ' 'J. i L ,,k .i--.r..v '. ," .; j - - *' . ..'.. J'. >. '. ' . . V ,> -' . . 12 > '/ r*S./ A R i g h t -r , ^ ^ v.-/'. : -V 13 y y T h e d i p h e n y l e n e s w e r e 1a t SO v p o r t s per^ t a i i l i o n ? . ' or J' - ; 14 \ A Y e s , * .j /" *,fVl) ' !?'; y / Q . <*- !. r*-yiF So w ith th e s e enorm ous c o n c e n t r a t io n s t h e r e , ,,_~l , - *aUoi `*? .k i- 16 ' to > say w hat co u ld eau se w liatV - i s t h a t , r i g h t ? * Jr / / / I t ' s hard ; ,l] NoorO*. _# * * 17.- <rA': T h a t ' s r i g h t * . r / S l. . - ] ' z uzzoV 5oo,1/ t f -a ut - . 18 ' V . Q ; S i r , o n e o f t h e . t h i n g s , t h a t H r * C a r r d i s c u s s e d w i t h y o u ' - L- ,,- ' Vi1* ^ ^ , pp 1 F 19 - w a s w h e t h e r o r / n o t D r . S u s k l n d ' s r e p o r t t o y o u o n t h e K r u n t n r i c h 1 20 * 21 V stu d y e u b m itte d in Sep teinher o f 1980 van a f i n a l r e p o r t , , [ '' , ^ . 1 ' b,^ jv f. ^t t. ,i. i ** j \'r J * 1i4, 'i t " -. ; A ' Y e s , s i r _v . . - ' v ' '' * ; "/ ` *` 22 ' ,, Q . Do y o u - r e c a l l - t h a t , $ i r ? / / J j" ' J^ 23 A .Y e s, s i r . ; ' ' 24 ,,4 ^ J \ ' ' $ And y o u r t e s t im o n y a t t h a t tim e ,- s i r , w a s.w h a t? y / ' 'V -y y J i , " * " ^ UH ^.r 'J 1 tL , . . * ~* - , j. ' r. T h a t J ' 19 it was a final report? A No, slr9 it was a preliminary report until In June or July, whatever the time was, when he asked for payment and he . 'v said consider it ;S. final- report. ;/ Q All right. (Defendant Vs Exhibit 915`wao marked for identificatlpn.) Q Let me hand you, ;alr, .what's ^ e e n marked as Defendant's Exhibit 915 and ask you t o .examine that and identify it for me, please A' Yes, sir* l Q Can you identify it for me, please? A This is a contract written by Monsanto to the executive director of the Medical Center Fund of Cincinnati related to the clinical study to.be conducted by Dr. Suokind.at our Krummrlch plant. Q And it's dated October 15, 1979, Is it not, sir? A Yes, sir. . Q And it's been signed .by Monsanto Company, and who signed it on behalf of Monsanto?1 A ' I signed it. Q And. it's signed by Dr.. Cagnettl, the executive director of the Medical Center Fund of Cincinnati? A Yes, sir. ' ,, _ '- Q And it's alao signed ,,by Dr. Raymond R. Susklnd, is that U 20 .correct?- v '`,' 1^ r1 .y '. p. J * k ''"`V , ; * , ^ ' ,, " `V '^ , 1v- A 2 ., . *, ,, Q '3 YesV si*. ,, / / *- V . ^ " - , '"-M - \ \ ; * ." * ,i * _ v_ . < . ; j, 1, ri 1 - . y -y , - '^:'r , . .. - ` The dIrector .of tha Dapartment of ,Environmental Health? '4 5r ` .. / -5Tes . sir.-, V - ^ V `'J %" 'V:*' - r . ( <,s. - - ,,i t J 4'hJ J ,r T- 1 ' *" ; * -^ ,1 /; ,1. ' L ' i ,, ' _* , J ^ -P r T ` ,Q ' ,` J i ^ V ^ . r 1 ; / j - *>. * -* ,, j - ' ,- And ,if I -can direct your; attention,1 sir ,, to the paragraph numbered 2 n. the; fi r s t p a g e ? . ;" c-r-' 6 *J j. ; a * ; * * ' r * *1 , f/ ,1 J ^1 f - 1* f 4 - b-J- * * 1* V J t . i h \ 2 i t 1 * / '*' r - * *, '\ 7 /'/ /:1 Tes, sir. -, ^ t'v_. . j- * t fi m " 1 a 1, 1 ` 1J ' . " 4 ^ r* ' > 8- Q .Would you read/to the,* jury1that'sentence In th contract ' 9 : .that starts,,"It la agreed--"? . , . '.` ' 'y -- 1 ,y ' - `,, ' 1 .i .v, - ; A v. "Itj Is/agreed that .the final ten percent f^ this .fee ' 10 - amount.shall be. paid. to. the>Pund only; after Monsanto, receives, 12 1 th final report of the -study." ` > ^ fc '^ v -f rf >O *- h *' 1 /* * ^ 1* - , '_ F ^ t1 ^ .. : r , h; - Jr iL- ' - -* / V:- ' / / " g<^ V 13.*% ; y Q ' All right, sir. And ,what w a s 'the' amount that- was - , -. 14, supposed' to h e 'the contract^-amount? - ^ A The total amount ls listed as, $40,454, so that the final -f - 1.6v -payment would be $4,000, but I t h l n k there is a place in here./ some place,about additional; expenses that could lnflate that. - 17", 18 - ' Q pkayV Immediately'aitar the, sentence you just .read, . 19 / "there Is ,another aentance about that, I s n 't there/:sir? Would -, ,21 you read'that?- . - "j " L _1 " - 1 _ v 1 '" # r r -$ * 1 mm M f . -/ *j < d `y *: _ , , -1 1 ^ 1 i 1 * > 4 ,r * * A "Upon recelpt of ;said report, Monsanto will also pay '1-22," , -the Fund for reasonable expensed-connected with the. principle ' 23.- investlgatorVs performance.'.under .this Agreement, actually, incurred ;'\ : " ''V Jv ' - 7 ''- V `^ .1 24 by the Fund'above the estimated budget amount f o r c h e expense, PENGftD CO, 21 LI 2- upon submission by the principle investigator and approval by '>' f i'f : ' ; ' - , #" 'Y U-- . ' -- A H ' Monsanto of hny-' itemisedt account of. expanses for which payment pM 3 "A /. Is sought" \Y. ^ Y -YY *. - ' -4 ,- it,, .? 1- . (Defendant's "Exhibit .916 Was marked for . 5' - 6 -, .* .',iJde1n't; i,;f'ica,t1>io'm.!nv.'vl)v..v,'1'.*;*`**;'v"-1".;`S.v,1.!rf- ' ' \",' ' ' Q\ Let me hand you next,, sir, what's-been marked Defendant1 -.1 Exhibit 916.i - Do- you o e c t h a t / e i r ? r rS - ' rJ ` __ " ^. '*YY Y .. , \' Y *" A Yes,//sir. ' 8-.. . - v Y ', -: Y - 9S '*Q .Would you identify t^at for me, please? ;rl - ^ Y 10. ; : A 'This is an invoice from the Kettering Laboratory buaines n --^; o1fYf--i-ce a^t 1thJ ei pUni^versity ;oyL,rf't /Cincin%nati'in-Cincinnatti, O h i o , Y ^ H, " . ' r -J p `' 1 < * ' k rT". Y _ ** Y .t , *" N,V *a , r *' 1 -r j + +* * u- and it's an. invoice to ,M o n s a n t o a t t e n t i o n George Roush. 13 > : Q . And it's dated -what date, sir? ,. 14 - A May 30,. 1984. ";V" ; ' * .. */ 'rY * p. ' Y * Y ,Y 15 '' t' '-16 ? z- Q I'm sorry?' V v- , .. ,YY' A. May 30, ,1985, il'mosorty. ; Q May 30, 1985? ' ` `Y ^ , J Y* Y , Y, ' Y /Y \ -/ is . 19 20 t -2i i, Y ' Y --Yes,,/sir; ,> ' `Y Y Y > -,r' T-- 'J ' Y - Y' ' ^1 Q . Now, that Is the date hpon which y o u c o m m e n c e d ** ` ^ , - - 1. " a r -V ' ** . # ,-r ' . ^. ' test imony i n t h is -cas e f;-isn 't it, a1r?J p\ A -^ " - -. " - v\ ; ' A -,Yes,: .sir, r:; :l' j , * . r - -V .-> --`j. - " %'.i; j;-\-Y " * r your r - ' *, ' - , 22`Y '^ Q 23 -r much? N o w , t h e d o c u m e n t , t h & amount of-the invoice, is how ^\ j' j* '" ; ' Y \ Y f. * ', / ' - - r . J . *- r ./.> > Y" Y r ' -- 24 . . a -- $8,60?; : Y j Y * 7 Y Y ^ \j BAYO N N E; N.J, 1 Q The description says what? 2 A It's for completion of Dr. Suaklnd's Krummrlch study. 3! Q And there la a handwritten note on there, is there not, 4 sir? -' " 5 Yes. 6 Q Do you recognize the handwriting? 1' A Yes, sir. It's signed by Dr. Sprmul, who Is the doctor 8 who has responsibility for the Krummrlch plant and what he says .9 "Final report has been received. Okay to pay." 10 Q All right. Now, would you tell us, sir,' how it came abo 11 that this report, well, fir^st of/all, was there any report 12 received by you from Dr. Suskind relating to the Krummrlch 13, after the one dated,September 28, 1980? 14 A No, sir. < ' *' ` 1 '" r h v {1, ' IS Q Would you describe for us what occurred in the meeting, 16 what were the circumstances under which it was decided that thin 17 should now become the final report? 18' A I had a phone call from Dr. Suskind; 19 Q , All right, sir. 20 A And they were looking for us to pay the Fund the $3,607 21 Dr. Suskind wanted to get this budget item, and what he owed to 22 the University of Cincinnati off of his debit as far as Ketteri 23 Laboratory is concerned, and he was asking for this payment so 24 that he could take care of that obligation.  i r, . Q Arid; sir, did he give you a reason why he wanted to-do ,' ':.2 ^*/that?. ' ' \ , / / / ' ;,. ,'V\ * -'f//" t '/ . -/ "* 3,. A He is retiring ,and;he is tha bead; of the. laboratory. 4 ^ttia Kettering Laboratory,- and his replacement is, taking, has '5 taken over,1 he is. taking over as^head today or this, week or 6 ' last ,week, it ic that close- in timing, when his replacement is : 7 taking over.as head of the Department. ' ,/ 8' (Defendant 'a Exhibit; 9 1 7 was m a r k e d Kfor -I'"' ^ . . . (/ jr' r * "y r 1 >- *>* - .9 : ' C Identification.) , - '7 v^c , 1' 4 10 ; . Q -V ''4 . li - .Exhibit ' - ,.v-- ",v v,,-1-> i*^ ,,^ ;i - T-^_,, r :fj , _>.*. \ * '? Sir; lot, . *-4-.^%1 \> m.;e,j."-rhei(Lnl-Vd*.Si!V-yoU'u.lt >n\,o vJ.wjr'h'*a trb,,1e.f ib*1e,-e,rn "ma'r,ked--:ao -,* ( *4. Defendant 917. Can you'identify that for me, please?-. , ,* ??, , 13 A . Y e s , sir . ,,;:This\ la^the, cover io-^a memo from! Robert - J' -:`W ^ ^ , --r-.kJs " ; ` , ' o- - , r;r. k ^ ` ' * . : v - - Murphy, who le superinderident,of health and safety at the, *V . W" ( i^ ' \ A` J ; 1 ,p, '* r1 r ;1 j 'r14i,-t/ Krumarich plant who is writing this memo to the Union Committee, ; is : CB -_Q What's the date of the memo, sir? '16.'.' '.A And i t 's datod Juna lA, 1985, and the letter to the *r * J* , j^ -h "i* w` ^ ^ L ' "\r ** ' -- r -17 Union reads, as. follows', "Attached .is1.a. preliminary draf t report. BAYONNE iK .J, 18 . from Dr._ Raymond R. Suskind .entitled 'A Study of- the Health ^ 'j - ,19 Workers Involved in the.Production of.Pontachlorophcnol and . , 'r -' r- - t *j '. - . `Lj ir > . j" . . ' ' -. ' 20 Other Chlbririated P h e n o l s . ' T h e report' is dated September 29, 21 - vl980. .Dr. Suskind- is now cclling this preliminary; report his . 22 ' final report and.It has b e e n 1accepted for payment as .such by 23 ' -Moosanto's DMEH." :: ' - 2 4 " ; _ Q DMEH ;being? - - v -k ' - ^^ -t- -- m< '***^ * ,/^1r,l 'rr ^d'-- J- fj- , ,, ' 24 ' A' Department of the Medicine and"Environmental H e a l t h / , 2* ' Q W o u l d y o u look at the second page, of {that exhibit sir? , '3 ' * A ^.Yesi' Q.ir., V'* ,;,V . V' .'- 4 r Q '"What, is that/document? r ' 5 .. A This, is a letter from Dr, Suskind t o vme on University ' ^ ,6 - of. Cincinnati Medical Center stationery from the /institute of 7 - 9; * , " 'y'r ..10 11 "Environmental Health da te'd^.Sapt a m b e r ,30, 1980 1 / 'V k Ji 1- <~ ^ * ' ' - k' - \ y , 1 _ "< r cj Q Copy to Dr. Papageorge,-Bill Papageorge? _- 1 - 11 , 1' -- ^ ' - n. r\ t- *1'"' ' j1- -f I'V' 'J-' Y J, -.A Yes Jsir . ---Het.i'eiresponsible /for environmental,matter* or , sf.` ' .- * s";* V,/ /- . .. . - >} ,t: i.-1 ' -*' >'* \ .> ' ,h iv ' ; ; >* - " .v - the. environmental chemicals, business f o r 'Monsanto ir Q Would you/read/\the, first:-/sentence in thev letter' pleae 12 % 13 .air? -A -,"'*. ; '" *^ "f" I *'J Jf\ *1hr:I fc1I ''The; enclos ed\ isVa preliminary report- of our findings' *14^ * 4 *F ' : * **'' ,, L ,* 1 > 11 * t , *4 from the clinical survey.of workers at the W;C. Krummrich plant ; 15 16 17/ in- Sagt, '{Illinois." .. . r> : ' Q. So in the letter to^ou/datd September 30 1980 transmitting.^ report September 29 1980 Dr. Suokind referred ",' 18, . to this as^a, preliminary report? -, J' ' i9 <' 20' A , .Yes-,- sir. . v* , ` ,- 1 - 1 '( >. - ^ ' , - - , - ' .. ` " L'. ' " : - 'J ' - . . ^ \ ' " . '' a ' /(Defendant1e:Exhibit 918 was mirked for 1 21 , " 22- . identification^) , * - F 'P , _* ,F ' 1 *I `k ' J' / ^ '. - tf Q Let me hand y o u ( sir , what *0 been' marked ao Defendant1s .23; Exhibit 918 and ask youFto examine that and Identify it for me, 24, .please..'- ' / 'V LZ .' -J PNGAD_;CO',, BAONNE, ,N.J. 0700 FORM IL *.B 1 A Yas, sir. 2 Q What is that, sir? 3 A This is a le t t e r ro me signed.by Dr. Raymond Susklnd a m 4 it la also on University of Cincinnati stationery from the 5 Institute of the Environmental Health, Kettering laboratory in 6 Cincinnati dated July 10, 1980. 7 Q And would you read the first sentence of ehat letter, 8 please? ; ]' , , t V ;- '' 9 A "In connection with your inquiry late last week, letter;; 10 *,f*T , , ^i have been aGut to /personal physicians for 85 persons who were 11 examined by us at Sauget, Illinois.11 12 *r ; , i \ , -i Q So Dr. Susklnd Informed you on,July the 10th9 1980 13 that he had sent the letters? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q That you referred to In your discussions with Hr. Carr? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 (Defendant's Exhibit 919 was marked for 18 identification.) 19 Q Sir, let me hand you next what,'s been marked as Defendau 20 Exhibit Ho* 919 and ask you to examine that and identify it for 21 m e , please. 22 A This consists of. two documents. The first is a memo 23 dated December 2nd, a Monsanto memo dated December 2, 1982 from 24 Harry Keating, responsible for environmental safety at all the 26 . y y industrial chemicals.plnte and he_ is writing to H.W. Curtis 2, : I do n 1t ;lcnow who Hr* Curta la, 3 ; Q , All- right. .. And attached to that memo as the third page 4 . of the exhibit i e w h a t , sir? 5~ A' It Is An involcn from, the Kettering Laboratory at the 6 University of Cincinnati.asking for a check to be.made payable 7 8 V -, 10 ` 'll > . to ;the *' Q Mdical CsntsrFund/ofCincinneti; . '. .. '.:V>'*.*, t!ljJ ssi .4 _v - . , < ' ye' E , L ' *ii f., i ^ ^ ' : i}- \ " . V 1 .rt i - 'j1 And w h et is - 't h e Lamount o f th a t c h e c k ? h1' - 4 ( 'r~- **; J. '- " A v `: q ''T h e u n p a id I n v o i c e , i s -,l i s t e d a e ^ - - :'--; ; ^r 'r\ / t *r : \ ii;-! ; --i r ` ' J-- r jh :;- I s - p3 ' y.^y V , i . , t ; In v o ic e yes I u sed th e wrong te rm . . 'Vr ' l. - ?. :A- Invoice !t-ioj unpaid' amopnt paflt iJue ,.$8,607. 12 ' 13 Q A n d t h e d a t e o f the Invoice Is what sir? '. < ' j xt * ^f 4 l' A March 25, 1982.' ; ' :. - ^. 4 Q And would.'you read, the memo y which is. the first page 15 16 1 f the exhibit, sir? ,V -- , r*j* ~[ i J ` ` , / Iv ' V ` ` ' i .- ,,, 1 * *k . - - < ' ^ , " 1 A s ' - ' ^ n ** l r -\ M * TI ` *r ,- * 1 ' A \ "'This is Harry Keating, the environmental ;man^responaibl|a 4 . J' . ^ ^ f -L 17 for Industrial ehemicalc writing to Curti, saying.; nDr. Gcffey 18 ^ J f. 19 20 - bias been holding .this invoice pending receipt bf:'the final repoilf , -r , -1 " i - , j. > -j. h j*L .; ^ , j _t 1 ^ * 1,'_ * ' >J " . i ' k - h" ^ ' yl. -i-V % 1 l. r_ of the W.G.E. itudy froai Dr . Suskind. Tho earlier 'invoices were # r ti " * r4 - i* ' ,, - -r i1- 11 1 1 sent to Paul Helsler for payment. We are not recommending that 21 the plant make. thlsrfInal payment until a final report io received .22, by DMEH. However.,* w i t h ,the year end approaching, you may want ** T i r t-^ ^ ^ m^ I '23 'i to attabllah an accrual account for the balance to avoid, having, 24 a charge in 1983"a a n e w MIC expense." ' /, i.,/;"' /,*\v v ^ 'JV' - .'-v r . ' ' ' ", s -' r ' ` J- '' 1 Q So as of December of 1982 you were not paying this invo: 2 because you didn't- have a final report? 3 A Yes, sir. . 4 Q And is this sum the same as the final amount which you 5 finally paid, sir? 6 1 7 A Yes , sir 1 . i* , : \ _ j j' i .* , / AL . r 1 Q $8,607K? K ' * * ' ' V"' 1 *. ' 8 MR. HEINEMAN: Ybur Honor, I'dlikc to point out to the r \ /* ' 1 \ ^ ^ , /, i> *, 9 Court and to the jury, if* L'may that when Mr. Carr was questlonli 10 Dr. Roush, he did, not have these documents, they had not yet :- i - \ *i - , , 1 . 11 been found br produced.to him so that he didn't know the exists 12 of these documents, nor their content when he was questioning 13 Dr. Roush on this subject., 14 THE COURT:1 So noted.on the record. Thank you. Now, 15 which particular ones are you covering by that? 16 MR. HEINE MAN-: The ones I'm referring to are--which did 17 it start1with? 18 MR. CARR: 916, counsel. 19 MR, HEINEMAN: 916, 917, 918, and 919. 915, I'm sorry, 20 it starts with 915; 21 MR..CARR: 915 you had previously supplied, you had not 22 given me these other documents. 23 MR. HEINEMAN: I'm sorry, 915 you previously had. 24 THE COURT: 16, 17, 18, and 19, right? Is that correct 1 MR. CARR: That's correct, your Honor, 2 THE COURT: Thank you. 3 BY HR. HEINEMAN: 4 Q No.wP sir, in your discussions with Mr* Carr, his 5 questioning of you relating to the question of what the workers 6 at the Krummrich plant-ware told about whether or not there was 1 ,* m , \ * r 7 any dioxins in the chlorophenols, do you remember that, air? 8 A - Yea, sir*: _ ''* :" " \; " 9 (Defendant's Exhibit -920 ,was marked -i r j " J . , ; * ; > 10 for identification.) 11 Q I fm handing you now sir, what's been marked as Defends 12 Exhibit Ho* 920* Can you Identify.that for me, please, sir? 13 A Yes* This Is an industrial hygiene manual dated 14 December, 1979 for the chlorophenols Department 237, and it was 15 prepared by the, I'm not sure what Phil Kirk is, but Paul 16 Easterday was industrial hygienist for the plant, at that time* 17 Q Well, the jury has met Phil Kirk on a couple of prior : 18 occasions, but the other gentleman, Paul Easterday? 19 A He is an industrial hygienist. 20 Q An industrial hygienist at the.plant? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q And this is for the chlorophenols Department 237? 23 A Yea, sir. 24 Q Dated December, 1979? ] - A Yes, sir. 2 A ' Was the penta department pentachlorophenol department 3 open at this time sir?, 4 A Yes sir. 5 Q In December'of.-l'979Y . ^, 6 A Yes, sir. i v ,I 7 MR. CARR: \ No;, /Doctor,.it wa^ closed in '78. 8 9 yes 10 Q All right. The panta^department was closed in *78? 11 A Absolutely,, yes* 12 Q Now, if you look a t .th second page of the exhibit-- 13 A They're not numbered. Are you talking about the table 14 of contents? 1 15 Q No, qlr, the second page of the exhibit is this page he? 16 sir, with Phil Kirk's name and the date? 17 A Yes, right. * ... 18 Q All right. Tfould you read that first sentence, just ki 19 read the whole, it is a short paragraph, would you read the 2 whole paragraph? 21 A' Yes. Again it states, t h i e i i t h e chlorophenol 22 department Industrial'hygiene manual and it reads, "This manual 23 will serve as an introduction to the chlorophenols department, \ 24 Industrial hygiene program for the operator training. It will 1 cover some of the engineering controls designed into the production facility give you .information about the nature of 2 3 the chemicalhs? u>s\e"d.in'tt-ie .depa-rtment and describe some of the )i 4 work practice.that will be,used in the department *" i /Iv * * i 9 i 1 ** 5 Q All right, sir..' Now I'd like to direct your attention 6 to the page that boars, the number., .roman numeral ,11-3, which 7 is the 6th page as I count them, of the exhibit. Do you see that sir? 8 A Two what? Two dash what? 9 10 Q Roman numeral 11-3 11 A Yes. 12 Q Now, would you read that short section there? It is 13 entitled Health Hazards-Specific, correct? 14 A 'Y e , ai r . 15 Q Would you read that to us, please? 16 A Hazards for phenol chlorine and the specific chlorophem 17 are described in appendix E. Chlorophenols may contain a minute 18 quantity of impurities known as chlorinated dlbensodloxlns or di 19 special mention is made, of these substances .as there has been, 20 much concern by environmentalists and government officials over 21 their potential health .hazards. To date very little is known 22 concerning the potential toxicity of dioxins, although it s 23 known that exposure to dioxins may result in a skin condition' 24 called chloracne. Some reversible liver effects have also been Ci ' f t -J fc 31 1 reported ri,.Xiu8y all oportore aro urged to follow good. industr Lai 2 ^ hygiene practices as outlined in this`manual. Attached also 3 ar the.,results' of the 'Nitro plant mortality study related to * "** " H , " 'r K `4f- dioxins." Then it glyes references. J '. -- i * ^ ; v'i V 1 't 1" fi " . \ -1' '' .' ^ v ' y? / v *.i -j V ; 'j -S 5- 'Q ,How lithe next,document, `the next page- or three pages > ' ` L< ' i < '1 - *. w ''"'1, * ' r " 6 are an'envlronmental bulletin relating to' the Nitro plant';. 7; ,, -1 f- . fh %r . ; j/ ' . J. >, H. i v . ' ^ Lr f . . , -- ,: mortality study, correct,air? / r.. r f . .jv L . 1 .J ^s. . . 1 ' - i f ' 1' 1 -k . ; - ? 8-'. A Yes,- sir. ` v' ?- io ; A; Yes,., sir. "^ - '' \r, ` -i, ' * -' i i ' >12*` . 13 * . Q, .And^that's relating ;to what study/ air?^ ` - * 'r " j- r * _ i\v , r.p ' . , ^ rV v *^ ' ' . ' i i _1 f * * 1* - > " '' - ^ i-1 . ^ ^ ^ . -4 * ,, ' "r - - ^\ A; This was the Zaek/Suskind'study, the study of * 7, rn f i. - j,* .' r\ /j - *' ' *_ ^. ^ ' the ,f -r J St , chlorophanoi,TCP-exposure, group and ,the accident developed , 14;; chloracne. . . - .r, __ `r'\\ - , 15 . Q . Nov;'if'you look at the third page of. that., environments L 16 bulletin, there are threef s h o r t .paragraphs there, `are there notff \ \ 1 . A V Yea>' sir. - 4 . ' . 18 1 ' Q Would you read those, to the jury, please? J ' 'r \ , ' \ , " ',;r- '- . .v . i* ' , 19 A "This study will become a part of. a larger, analysis of ' 20'. < 21 not only mortality data,^but also of health infprmatiozi gathered ! '. ' ' J1 ^ n ` tb ^ ** ` T * ' - ;r "' .- t 1 ' last June in examination of .over 400 present and :former Nitro 22,' plant1-employees" by Dr.! Suakind and hl's medical team: from' the" . ,'23 . '\ , 24 'University of Cincinnatl lnstituto ;of Environmental Health. tj s v > < * C' *. " -1 > ; J ' * F- / I "r. - _ "* ` ` Included in that study are :,both workers .exposed. In the .1949/ J j ^ ' - -, '; , . \ . *-... t -: . / ' ^ ; ; _ ; j , y r - _ ; j > . _* r /. k; 1 -' < 1- ' . y FCNGAD CO.. BAYONNE: N.J. 07001. FORM IL 24 B /. ;V?-' V -f1" * _" _ _j I rv ^ Kv ;y..'-* i i P - ` ;)j: i- . **.**._ , k .'"*l?5 ^r:.i > 1 r, v^ -r l---` .* 32 ,,1 - - , . ' f *.* v I*, j, -r , . , ' . ~y * ;: * v ;',v -.L* .. . ' . f v , r . i ! " i t : , \ *' r '" ` i * ;f accident and-those not xpoaad at that time but vho work in - `2 the 24,5rT operation between 1948 u h c n t h unit started up and 3 ' 1969" when Monsanto ceased production, of tthe .product A, control 4 ' ' group of; employees who; worked la other areas of the plant during 5 ' that time- frane ia also., being studled/for comparative purposes -6 - This extensive1 medical^Investigation Is being directed by 'r , , 7 Dr;. Suskind. His findings .are `expected to^ be-published later 8 this year or .early 'next"; year . 11 . -, ; *9. * ' Q All right. ;Now -the-, first paragriph that you read >* 10 - relates to It; says "This study will become part of a larger 11 analysis of not only mortality data but also of "health information,M 12 j-v is the first, part of that'relating to -the Zack/Gaffey study?. 13 - A.. The flrat part I think this doesn't refer to the 1 ^ ** ' r * * " * * -*tT ( ,1 ' \ i r 14. Zack/Gaffey at all. This refers only to the.fact<that in addition 15 to t h e Z a c k / Suakind study,,they were going to have-these 400 * 16 .people;:examlned by Dr.'Suskind . .t ' 1 * ' - ' ,y ' 1 -r _y \ J - " j' ' i; ` r- 17 - ' Q . Now ;iet -ffie direct; yqur attention to a .page which Is 18 ! marked Page rl3 In. the upperv.rlght~hand'corner ; >;- 19 - .'A Yes, sir. ;'" v~;.J..' . . r., -V' . L .r/ 20 ' ' 21 V. . 22 - Q. . Db}you see It.'s entitlad Appendix"A? . - ` . ^ * ** ' * , Yes^'^tri'' _ .: ' ."v _:\`i ." , / 1' J- :r " ',: . - w4 . ` *_ `' ^ ^ v^. ' Q Chlorophenols g p il 1 pr ocg dur e, co rrect? v c, / ' r' . > ^/ . 23 '.'A,- Yes,"air;- - 24 ' Q It. aays,' dope I f .np t ft"slr,. as `soon tas a. spill is detected B A Y O N N E, N .J . 0 7 0 0 1 ' FO RM I t 1 * 8 J . - *' ` '. 'i "' ~ ~ 1(A-^i1." -'.}*-''n/Vi:`>i!A'^~J. 'i*i{ r1'I;-* V' ... . ^ i;:~\ . i i , ', ^I 1'i.* . 'r. / /.> 1' . 7 ' L i- rv '='*i - -uK' ,, t *. * -* v. `- .* . 1 \ . 1, - they should/notify., the department personnel, -should notify : supervision,>:and. obtain face shield, respirator, and rubber ' ,r '/ - gloves from:control room or.safety station, correct? 4; , r k : ' Yes,., sir. 1 ,, tii- " ^ . .v ' : .5 " Q .And there is a -note'at the "bottom of the page, is - 6 / there not;,;@ir?' / -, L^ 1 ; ?/ - y / .. A , Yes^ sir. ^ '5 -..,/ t , ^ 'r . . .l-S' . 8 <} Would you read that note? * ^ 1. r `i L J ^r ' ( J\ ' ',' ^ ^ ' r* ,:> .L ' 9 A. - "At all times,' when forking with spilled ^material; the. io. department/of personnel will wear -full protective equipment # i i ;" l rubber boots ,rubb er . gloved, r face- sh te Idr, re sp ira to r ; and rain1 i< 12 Guit. as heeded. *' ~ -' L'>^' . / 13 Q Sir' when Mr* Carr .was examining you,- do I hot correctly 14 -.recall that, you gave'him your^ impression that people at the plac 1r*5 ,r^ knew about tihfe .presence''of',dioxins In jchlorophenolo? , ,/>. . 16 f'v- `fA+ :'',Y1e-a,.'i,' srir. \^ '^ '>^ y m* v ^^- r^'-.;'i-v ^ J - *- J L * s'h r \ \ ' Jty Fw \ , 17. Q :And" this .document does indeed^ state that,, does it not? 18 t . MR. CARR: Your. Honor, 'I ,,object to the leading form of-, , 19 . thequestion. . V* 20 . ", . THE COURTS Objection sustained;' WouldVybu./please 21 ` -rephrase it? ,, ^ .% ' -,* J , ' ' f r. 1 ' -^ * . _ 22 ' Q And sir, on Page 11-3 that we .referred to, is. there ^ 1 23"' -mention-- . -V; ---v . *- 24 ' ^ k] That-'s ^roman .numeral II-3? - - i r V/- ' P. ^ '' ' ' , ? ^ L - . ' ( *Jh f 'L r ' - -- '; 'l ' .. "V f'-A /s r .` ;`1 ,v-- ,.-' , - 7/ tA* r ^- UV'>H'J,-, *v'AX; .,7 11 -*>:,^?? ;- Q .Roman numer a1 J>II- 3; A Yes j..sir, . .: 7 .a ; ' / '> ` \ .</ ` *% '.3 ' 4 sc 1y* VL v.Q Chlorinateddibenzodioxin? "A:. 7/,, -^ > A \,'%z . . 77 A ;7AA 7/7 'A : :`a Yes sit.. V :7. - .L' '** x <>/- 1./, ` ^* *v , j- .i , ,, -j ** r Jn + ,_ r -, 1* ' ,' t V ' r > ' r i r Q And ia there not also. mention-- 7 :`v j *c ^ 6 [ .- ^ .MR.' ;CARR: Loading;form of the'question,'^our -Honor'; rA . j; .*/' * - , 'l A - '~ J: -7-7" ' '7 7V` ; . - .. ` .. " *' '-'7 'V v THE COURT: Objection sustained* r ; ,: , .. . 7'7; Q Is there any mention there, air.,. of concern by environ- v men ta1 ista, an d\g overnmant/ off ici aIs oyer.t h e i r p bt en tia I heat th ' * r a *- ` 'L .t - * i,'y * i ? "j , ^ .V k^ ' * pi 1 iq''; hasard? '*' " 7-, r& . ' j; ,, \ * ,j.-; r ;r,.. x V ^ 'y- ir " 7.' /-.A7 -Yea ,sir . 7 7 77 ^ -7 ` '' , ' :v/ '' /,.'7`' ' 12; - . '* "" ' ` , , ,, - X. * ' 1' J ' - .-V . 7 ' i * 7 Q ' . Now.7;'a1 r t ifI can direct1 ypur ,a1 1 ention in; thev aame '-r n'N? ('''.'i r 7 ;^ r" / -- 7* .- - . / 77 :`7` exhibit, Defendant's Exhibit"920, to w h a t l s the 12th page in' 13 x-;. 14 7 tho exhibit.'-it is entitled. Medical Suryeilance, do .you .seerthat is:--' 'sir?. ; h, ;.f, ' i . '1V *-* ^ / , 16: ,, , L' A, Not; rpman numbr'alr-'/,, ''A ' _.V '. . ..7 -ri^ , - _. , - y j `u 7- 17 kQ ; . It doesn't have"a dumber, on rit/I,-fffi sorry; or I would , r ^ ' .Jr k /'V; ;/'>>.-7 - ' -r '7 7 7 */ ^ f*r is: /give it t o 'ybu,,` I think -it-- ia the 12th page of ;the Exhibit and 19 i it ie entitiedr'Hedical. Surveilance./ 7' . r. .! r 7 ;' 2 p : : 1r-,:C -,;AYes;" sir/ ,' 77 _ 7 1 .7 - ' .. y ` 7. 7 ' " ;t\l, L . v - V, 21, r ^ Q - Does this set'out the well is .there a medical ' ' v/' 7 ;/ 1 22 surv aiiance under tak e n J.of l'the chlor oph eno 1s!Dep aftmen t 237, 23 or was there in December'/of ^7 1979? 24! A . They had the'general medical survellance procedure 'that " .. --7 1 .f? iS" ; > ,-7' ;/ A v 7; 7 V / /-'> - . . . * -' t i* . I ^ 7 / 7 . i.. 7.. 1 ." '7/ 7 -7:7* '!77V-7i 1* y ` '7r7 ; ' ri iv . . 7 1/7t - - 7 <y.`.7 '' r ' 7 ^ '* .j - . i* ' <i-v r y;-,J ]\v:-ri, V ' * * - fl ^v 35 1, va, use.in all of our plants which;Includes .a-madlcal, his tory ' ,2 physlcla examination blood count and with all of, the vhat It - 3 , means by blood,count aa. well as a serum bilirubin In addltlot / 4 1 these p e o p l e d ! get audiometrie and pulmonary function testing, and\in addition to that, every six months'the:workers who are r'Y ; 6. 7` assigned/to/the chlorophenols have an examination by the doctor. *j *1 * 1 , ` f o r 1the presence of ehloracne. \ .. !> r, ; . J''V Q - Now sir is ;this something that1 was In existence at the r9 10 . time that the pntachlorophenol department was In operation? -* t '\ . - . '-,.j ' . A Yes; sir*-/. .- ; ' / / - -, ' ^ ' \ ir * r * ,1 Q The emi-annual chlor,acne exaalnatlon wao bcgun in. the ' J V. ' ' . -_ ' ' ' ''-L pentachlorophenol department Is that right? , 3 - A? Yes* sir.. J '* / .\ ; ` ' ' 14 Q, At the time .that the/pentachlorophenol department closed .15 did people, from that department transfer to t h & chlorophenols . JL.' 16 department?- "'v _ / 1t r'. / y 17 . -A V l fm surei sme of .them'did. ' .,-`Y , .>: c ' '' ''r` j'-. *> S Y Vt ` '/'/ ',,` Y * ':V j- 18 Q - And has that r did that survellance that was begun, 19 years ago. ln\Department 236 did that .survellance continue until 20 of it has continued, does It continue today? 2I\ / 'A W e l l / w h e n we stopped the .production of chlorophenols, -.22:, the routine .check of everyone who worked In that plant would- , 23 drop out bu'tr those who had chloracno at that time would'be -V+ '', r - .J: '-.*!* 4`--^ '* i-V---.f r- ri '--V f\ J - ', 24 \followed untiiv;they"-thought that .they/didn't need .more medical' , .. i :;v v v ^ ( v J ..... ,/ < v -./ ' " ,' J.; :% ''iCn ;V ?/, / ;i?' - ''- 1 ( *t 1 ^ L W ^ 1 If ` A i- J . *1 I 1 . _L . , ^I^ ^ i r k-i - , ,, 1 pj f ; ** * . 1 ' ^ - - J A j FO RM ,IL Z4 B B A Y O N N E. N .J . 0 7 0 0 1 36 1. care,. - ' r "/ ; 1^ * * V. , * Ji 1 i r* ^F Y *- r - Q , So that as ofvthe time when,the chlorophenol production was discontinued, the pursuit of new cases' was discontinued, 4- ; is' that, right? ' , L Vi .; `v ^ -5 ; 6'7,' - A , That*Upright. ,1 :7'- ' \ --7^ * JA 17' Q . But you continued- to jeare for those who h a i had chioracn ` - ,'V `-** ' -*' i ; 'i- `'V in-the past? . , , '* '1 V ' / \ < V -` s_ v '8,/ A ` -Yes '`air-. ` '< `7'L v- **r 'v j /*' 9 . ' Q . And .you told us, I think there was a d o c t o r h e r e i n - ; 10 Belleville to whom you sent' some ;o, those people?^_ . 5 -v vii A; - ` ^ - ;/' y ii : Q -A, dermatologist? .rt \ ^ 13 ' *_J^ 14. ,, A, Y e s y sir. _ .. *:.;THE COURT: Before,ypfu get into this next document, *./ 15 is this a good point for a short break? / ` ^ 16^ f MR, HEINEMAN: Oh, sure, ,,Judge; it will be fine.'. * v . ,, '`, : ' .J ,-r '' ' 'j *' ' ... / "; 17 ' . THE COURT: 1 Ladies atid gentlemen, we;will take a'short '18 recess at this" time.- The admonishments that i have, given, you J 19. ' earlier will apply.during this break J ,: 1^ ^ F " L . *- J recess, p> , ; ,.v20 -^ 1 " ` , N F 7 ' ' ' - J I-- - > 1 also. T h e C o u r t ^k h, 1 , * '" i ** ^ .- Is in k J* 21 i . (At this time; Cqurt/was ,i n `recess / .'22, BY MR, HE INEMAH: k. J; / *. J *; V; '' 23. Q .Dr . Roush, the' nestl item ^I 'd like to talk to you ' j V' . y'-- \ S'; *- ir{% -;* ^ ? * t t ^ y v , * h- , ^ ^ i P --v , * y - ?* ( 24 ' la the Suskind/Hertsberg morbidity study. Now, Mr,. Carr i ' .':?*-, f1*- J'. %\.^ , * \ -, '1 - *; 41 ifr^ ' v - -r: '* ; . - - 11 i^ xty h-A >* 1*h v ,< * yy . ' ` ;;; ' .' FORM I L r U S BAYO N N E. N .J .. 07001 ,'1` ' `i ' 'f/ ... Ji.* ;Vi/ f - 1 H' 37, . 'r . 1 r,. J j ,J* - i*J * T^ _' 1" I. y.m%~ ' J ^ *-r'* * O'--" - '' 1 " through a;-number of items-, with you' in connection with thatV 2_' .study did he not air?, \ 3 v- A .Yea sir. - ' *, ' ' - 4- Q \ One of the thingsJhe .'.gave you was Plaintiff's Exhibit 5 ,.146f8? - All >.-ri-gxht.'1 sir, ,,1 hand you whtatJ,,'s baen \aar'ke.d Plaintiff-'-e e ,, ' 6 " `Group' Exhibit 1468, sir* is that tha body of Interviews^and -`7 physical.exam results and lab resuits' that'M r Carr gave you in ". 8 `* connection1with the Suskind\morbidity .study? - ' V `. A- Yes. siri - * r: / / `; ' `T' -* 10 r:i .Q And in addition to. that, sir, he gave you Plaintiff 's " J.lr Exhibit 1470;,, as I recall, which waa a list of- I.DV numbers? ' ^, ` % '*f . 4 - i' ' ' ,, ,12 ; "A _ Yes'sir, ?v /*'' *' , * V ; ' ' 13: Q . NaiaeB and IvD. numbers.' Let me h a n d 'you V air, what's be en ' 14 . /marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 1470, and that was a list of names IS social security numbers,.' and. new- 1 .1). numbers', correct? , v 16' A ..Yes,, sir. ., - ;r " -... . . ,17 . Q- So that you could ,identify the documents' in ,-1478 by , . B A V O N N E , N*J .18' ' name, "correct,? .i 1 19 y A Yes,-sir. - *,, " \ ''?*/ . 20 -*.- Q 'Because each of those documents In 1468 contains a littl e *. *. -V j'; kI v-nj. C ih..V ,l.\y ' *-* -- k ; ` -' 21 > number in the; ;upper? right-hand c o r n e r . d o e s it not? '^ ''22. -23 A rRight,aright. >L . / r, l '* ,.-ii .* i. t -; J>f-t*',r >'' f*;V -. . ' j *r'-."v i. ' i , Q And that cor res pond a .Co th e new I .D . n u m b e r o n r470, . t ...- -24'';': correct, 'sir?J/'-. . i .. - i i n ; ;^ v.v* .*!y iVr.-V [' r v; * \ r --'r Jt -, . ,1 ''" /' 1 A Yes, sir, . 2 Q He also showed'you Plaintiff*$ Exhibit 1471A Let me 3 hand you 1471A, sir. He showed that document to you did he 4 not? L 5 A Yes, sir. ,, v 6 Q And he showed you 1471, which is an enlargement of ^k * -, - i 7 1471A, Is it not, sir? 8 A Yes, sir* 9 Q And 1471 shows,Table',1 from the Suskind/Hertzberg' 10 report? 11 A Yes, sir. 4' r ' 12 Q Now, air, the Suskind/Hertzberg report is Plaintiff's 13. Exhibit 1467. Plaintiff's Exhibit 1467, can you identify that 14 as the Suskind/Hertzberg report, sir? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q And i t 's published in the Journal of the American 17 Medical Association? 18 A Yes, air. 1v ' 19 Q In 1984? .\ 20 A Yes, sir. \ ' : V-l t,v* { / . , *' " , ,1 " * i ' 'pt1 r * f ' - *f * ^ \v ` 21 Q Right about the same'.time that the Moses study was i 22 published, shortly thereafter, is that; right? ' ',L ' c( ' }> 23 A Yes, sir. - .r . f ", ^ 1, 24 Q He also showed;you,, as I recall, Plaintiff's Exhibit 147 1 which is a computer printout, is that ,right, sir? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 q Now, we've seen the industrial hygiene manual of 4 December, '79, which we Just looked at, didn't we, sir? 5 A Yes, sir. r ,, 6 Q And there was a memorandum Included in there, an. 7 environmental bulletin dated October of 1979, correct, sir? 8 A Yes, sir.. ? Q And that October of L79 environmental bulletin said 10 that there had been a, well, let me make sure so I don't state 11 it incorrectly, it says that there was a larger analysis of heal s 12 information gathered last. June in examinations of over 400 13 present and former Nltro plant employees by Dr. Susklnd, correct 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q So that as of June, 1979, that study was already under 16 way, that being the Susklnd/Hertzberg morbidity study? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q Now, what is a morbidity study, sir? 19 A A morbidity study Is an epidemiologic study, and what 20 you are looking at' is you look at either all health effects 21 or only specific health effects. If we are talking about a man - 4F^ 1 *- 22 working with carbon tetrachloride,'quite often, though, it woulc 23 be reported In the morbidity study if they had a hundred people 24 exposed to carbon tetrachloride, how many of them had liver 40 1; effects as defined:by'silver function .teat protocol* Each'one' v2-^ 3 of the /morbidity studies can be defined ;for. >a variety of 1 ,,1 ry ,1 " \ t[ " m* ' ' ^t purposes and this.1one was whether there could be anything " 4; found as a r e a u l t of looking at.this population that'would show 5 .6 ; abnormalities, that would be. different than was found In the . rC ' ,* j - [ Vn" ' 1 control by a variety.of tests Including history,\physlcal 7- ' laboratory tests, nerve conduction tests ^ | > * V / ",Q T h a t ,sort of thing/ /Now, sir, the mortality study 9. obviously studies death'.Morbidity study studies, the. condition 10 of health - L- '1, .; y rii /A Vf The state of health* ^ \ i2 : Q * The state of 'health*/ All right/ ,How,'how did .the1 .13. -morbidity-' study come about? ~ , 14;, '. ` A '. Dr*., Suskind/'when-he .had been to this. Severo meeting, / , 157 had told the"people who were assembled to.help'the Sevbso .- 16 people in either their study o f <their;people;aa well -ns the 'i7;: advising the' people who had, been involved in the Seveso' incident 18 and he. cerne back/aaylng'Jthet ibiir population, those. . 1 2 2 exposed ' r / L 'r - 7' \ -f : \ 'ii,v 1^4" v V i\ ' -, -- , -. 19 - In that acute episod, v7ould be th best opportunity available ' 20 * 2i / \J/t . '/ ' r ' '*' - as a >result .of'^theVSeveso review whether there was an effect. r ... 7' ,/* , , .f ;- : ,, s , ,* i A f .rl. . 1 f .- i .1 - * - / -r. Y-'i . ' '^ ' . 1' - - ' on'mortality from an exposure to dioxin He also said that * -, - \ " 1-' ,/< r/ '`'-fv5; .('7 r- -r"K' fi Wu 'rJ ' `221 : since he had. examined /ths^workera back.inr'4 9 ^through :about" * ' . * . . .^ . .'r J 23;' .1955, the same episode, following..the. people who had been involve 24. In the episode/and had :chlo'racn, he followed-them;long enough --> >tJ - , > ', '-I , .. f-, ` * ~PENGAD C O .. B A Y O N N E. ' N .J . ' 0 7 0 0 1 41 to sa* most 6 f thiadvrse effects, wont away, and h It saying 1 now after thirty years ,vdo *they still have some of the things 2; 3/ "4 : that h s'aw when he. exa*mrined them, or do they-a have something "Vf J - * , ', . * - v, ,' * \ else that'a .come on,since-then related to their exposure to dlo ::ln back in' that 1949 episode' 5;, ; ,' Q Now, there were-Included in this morbidity.study then 6 the-.pople^tn' th f49-incident^ who/had'choracne'who were still 7 *' `-,87; * j<J ?' 10 alive? A J - 1* -' ' 7r Q ' /.\ . V ,r r" L - "'. ; .Yea. J /-r ... ' ' L r' r": . ; *. 7v;/ i- , f r - ' * * ^^ - * -f ^ t .i ' /' . ^ - 't , * i All right p- 1*** ' ;3 / " w_ ' J - Ji And'Who would agr to participate? ^ `t l; 12 ; / -, Akr/Yes' . ' ' r. ' / //' : * -_,,/* - Now, 'there werealao/included other people? ' \^ 7 -, ,,L , * i ."'A- Yes. f'` ; ''7v' ^ r - 7 ' ` 13 * \ ' */ v Q` All, right, / Now, ,how ,,did that,-.come, about?.. 14 ,A- Well7r he was particularly Interested in seeing those 15/ he^ had seen before, but In^addltion to-that ,r he wanted to find 16 ' ' but of-those/who had-been ^working during the entire'period lnn . 17,- '* j l * - - J-l,\ ' - " .r ' i > a *H'*i-1 5*(> ,^! A ' 'J;i , ( ,< * r ur ^.I'i" 'f\*v^ \^/;i"//^ " '' 1< f(tt rr which the TCF,had been produced,' si well a* the .2,4,5-T had beer .18 i r produced'at 'Niiro^and/whether; there/ could' be any; abnormalities 19 i c . . - . byhistory, 4 ^ ' / ?' ; 0 . ' -/ : ' " V * ' ' ' i V i . J examination, physical findings, or laboratory flndln gs -2 0 - 21 '* which would In,,d1iiv-cate .an adverse;-, effect/ ;.'/ I.*-v from that long term ; 22' exposure. ./ ;t 7 '' .! , ' ' " / L1 .23 Q .All/right. ..Now, what did .Monsanto do. in 'order to^provid 4i 1*`- . ' M-I k " ` j-l' r`/' ` ' *- . 24 - him the Information that ,he needed for the/ study? rj-fI BAYONNE. N.J. 07001 rORM IL 14 B 1 A They already had Identified the group that had been 2 involved in that episode, those 1 2 2 , end had of course taken out 3 those who had died, ao they did have a population of those who 4 were still living that take the study. In addition to that, the 5 went back through their work records and identified all those 6 who had been exposed to TCP or had been working with 2,4,5-T. 7 Q In the production process? 8 A In the production process 9 Q Okay. And they came^up with how many people, sir? 10 A The total number examined was 436. 11 Q How, what, was done with respect to Inviting people? 12 I mean, there was a larger group than that, was there not? 13 A Yea, there was. , 14 Q O k a y h o w was that first group determined? How were 15 the outer perimeters of this study determined? 16 A They .wanted to take everyone , who had had exposure 17 to dioxin, not only those who were working at the plant, but as 18 well those whO 'had retired or those1 who had terminated*. 19 Q How, we have already gone over the fact that you didn't 20 have any records, w o r k r e c o r d s p r i o r t o 1955. 21 A Right. 22 Q So there was no way of finding out where people worked 23 before' 1955 from work records? 24 A That's right 43 j; - .-I. Q '' All right / So how did you'go about identifying this : 2 V larger group of people?./ : \ r .3... r < > `4 ^ A /.They, did it ;b y Jword pf- mouth -just asking and finding out who i n a d d i t l o n had been.workingsIn that area 'by discussion ` S-. with personnal and trying >.,to pick up the hamee ., ' / .'6; ' ,, .,Q " All right. So there ,waf. an. ultimate group' to.'Which . '7 `or to whom Invitations were extended? J *'-* ?'.J : 18; ,V 9' i *` A"' ; ,Yea .L'!j'} '; ^ ^ `" \ V " ^ L. \ , 'L 'Q And. this was to be a-..voluntary' program? ' \ `,L ' ', ' ,10 A Yea, -sir . / . ^ ' / .V \ - 11 '* - 12 : jQ And thia wafl to takft .place in and around^ June ;of 1979? \A- Yes,.sir. ` '\v y"' ^: ' ' ' 13, 14 , Q ^ And who sent out the.invi tat ions ? :;J , . A ;//Dr, >Sueklnd sent out,,Invitations.but they were--also , .. 15 r 16 // .AT ' r 18 had . a letter ^sentr.out -.from:,the ;plaht\, 'J? -- . ' r . . , << -* t J- , v; y >ii f ' V - V rif' .- . < -I -!& '*" a ' " " *. *!i <(' i .t . i 'i vf i , 1, fl,i 'y - i ? /, AQ , .AiJ l1l1;'#r. i4g." lhat . .'v'MNaomi w`Jt /.I, tAv,e1, l1l\-rtmMke- Wh1aos*w . ..1t'hAa^`.tf got .K`started? In a j, , ^ y t. *i * - T, other words how .did ther riames .get/together? They /.put together - ko 'l:;V ;7-... // ' /; v .jj;j . ^ '-,,t.*/ " /* %*"'V - i r' ^ a list--of names? Who put togethar the'list?- . .' ' . 19 ' . A Moneantj^/did J i,j 4 K Q u > l ^./; . "- ^ :-20 ci 21 ' 22,, Q ; And who at Monsanto ,do you recall? ' ' , ii, fr'r * . ^ i -^ >' 'j , . t . ' -,, "t * A ; Judy Zaek and Jan Yoitng both -worke/d' on it jand I :canrt-` ,P t'' . , \"r , 1 think they both worked on .it.in putting together :.the list.* .; / P A ' - 24, Q All. right./; And they tput together at list that vae. based. -- ' - ^i r V * t ^ V r Lj Pi - on work records? - .r r ", t B A Y O N N E / N.J. 07002 44 ]. ] 'A Yes,\ sirV- .\ .:j " . 2 ! Q And what other types .of records, do you know? '3 r / A The .chloracne records. '- / '4/' , Q, The "chloracne records? Anything else? -^ r ., r' '^1 v ' ' v- A, I dpa-t think ao .7 / 5- 7 .' - .. .,, . ' / '**'> . - ` `- 1 ' , - ' \r .- ..V-r s'' , '/ ' ' , - -7 , < 6 . ^ :p At least none that you can recall .^righti st" the moment? 7 That's right. 'V t,..'7 - " -7 '8- ,Q And they gatheredrthis group and they -sent `that, list of 9 ,, io ; names to Dr^, Susklnd? ^ ; 1 i- - ... '' > , _ T * " %i V, v; ` " .V .A1. Yes, sir. "V , _/' 1 v . , . ,r ' . . 'f ^ _ t" ^ ` j J *1 \ - ** i ^ \ l ' f> r " ' S Q ,"All 'right./ .What.did.he.do with it? 1 ,j . 11 12 A ,jHe sent out'lettore to all of Jrt h i B . , g r o u p : . 7/ Q All right. And. that ;lncluded<a letter from the plant?' ' \y 4 4 ' , ;A - 'Yes* ' - .> 7 '*. `7-- 15 > 7 ,. ' 16 ' % 1c,7 's 'Q ' .And -it ^was ^uat/tlieplant inviting them to participate? -w 7 ' . ____ * * . i r - t - ''-is x . f ' " J- - r. . . , A Notifying them that they were going to do. this study. 1. 7'v "j!t '.M ,,7 , tQ S o there wag. a 'letter 'froiB the^plant notifying the ' J8 ` /present and former .employees that they, were going to do the V. .. i?{ i / T M . U 7 *H i 7 > " /; : ' .. ,19 study' 7 Who actually extended the invitation? -Was it Dr. Susklr 20 : or'was it the'plant? i- 7 --2 1 /, 22- * A I, think Dr. Suskind d,ld. * * *. j p ^ . V *. -, 4n . j 1 J -* ..Q ^ And they-got responses? L% . *j a ,T ^ . . T a >t - w J* .1 r- k 1 , r * , . . ". * i` , 23 `-'-A " YaSv;J. 1 ..V--,;1/ ' v ''-.y7 ,/-`. ' " "/ .24 .V Q J All right. .Now," at that point, what, participation did P C S G A D CO 45 1 Monsanto have? a '*'/ " 1 x. -^ , - 2' , >/ 'A A I think; it was the order of about, of those who vara 3 / ;called and written t o / t h e r e w e r e >something in the order of 60 4 * percent participation- p A j <-A i A. -r. . j . .1 j , . -" ,,v < J , 'L j ' -. ^ - 1A " ' 5- Q Well, Z guess my question wasn't very clear Let me try -6 . again. I'm talking aboutAyour department at Mohs'anto, Judy . ' *7. -Zack, Jan Young, what were they doing,'if. anything;,in connectic 8. .with this study after they sent Dr. Suoklnd the lists.? AJ ; `9 V A They did nothing;uhlqsa. he might have;called-them and :, r ` " ' 1 10 asked some questions about, their information that they had sent 11 him. ^ 12 All right.' Was 'there Information at Nitro'whiOh was A_ 13 available to him? ' : r 1 r; A'/"- a f : /, a ; jJH` J / / '!>-?'' f, r ,,, t 'M A ' .The personnelAwera-there to. help. them In understanding . ;15-' :j'ob assignments, what; it meant by a man wiho was, a:maintenance 16 op'er_a,tr_o_r_`- or Aw'-hat''`ei'''iv<!-'e-irL'/,A''>aAh--A.d, -;ijAf',' heAr',waVts >' an', o_Jrperator, whet that 17 - \ 18 . meant* ' So each^ one Of>the. job. assignments required s o m e .definition, /* 'j i ?, * 1 1 , *' ' * 1- / . ' V l T i, -V } K `` **' ,A W i : V> a ; i* , so they ^worked wi t h 'D r Suekind in understanding the different 19 work record 'designations of jobs* A* w .20 Q ^ Wow., was. this, done-before anybody-had any :ldea what, the ` '2\? 22.'. 23 ' 24 health conditionwas of Vhese people? ,/ * ' * ` A ' V ' '-;W A` ' ' . ; *-'V A . Y e s / s i r . -v-'* / -^ . J .. . .a A . Q So there was discussion by Dr. Suskind with somebody from the p l a n t ,about-what jpb assignments;jneaht?/?} P E N GAD C O ,, B A Y O N N E, N .J . 0 7 0 0 2 . FO RM )L 2 4 B \ r -`1 r^ ` I *J s' r r* p^ . ' 1 ' 1 7r " "H fc ' -r > %rn 1 -r '\ ' \ t * . r, ; f , ,. ` , , * * . *" ' * , 1 46 (, C F V,' ; -J - - J `7 *l , ,.a >` , ." L * `* S' \ , * ;' " n J ^ _ .4 7 V-' /a, -' :7 7 " A'-' Y e s / s i r . 7 --- 7 a " ' , . ,7 7; 7r* ; A . k 1 '7 ' 1" t * h . L4^' " ' 2' JV * Q Now, who was t h i s p e r s o n ? v, 7 . r/ . . , ' r . 3 /. A I k n o w ' t h a t M a r ( a l l Q v a y w a s i n v o l v e d i n I t Who e l s e '4 h e lp e d him w o u ld b e -- t h e r e w e re a l o t o f .q u e s t i o n s ' a s k e d s h o u t ' 5 .7 t h e : e a r i y 7 o p e r a t i o n t h a t . M a r G a l l o w a y w o u l d n ' t b e a b l e t o ^ 6 7 answer^ w it h o u t - k e l p y so- h e w o u ld c a l t / o n v a r io u s ,\ p e b p le p r o d u c t i o n p e o p le 'w h o w e re i n v o l v e d b a c k i n . h e l p i n g 1them d e s c r i b e 7 :7 . 7 ' ' ,, . 8 7, what a J o b w a s a t t h a t r t i m e * : j,, - J 9/ - 7 % ' rQ . W hat' w a s t h e r e a s o n f o r w a n t i n g t o f i n d o u t v h a t a J o b , - , i o 7 - ' w a s ? ' 7 ;. ^ . ~i _r 7 . 7 '* - ` J J ' .7 * 1 1 .. Y Somehow a d e c i s i o n ^had to b e 'made who w a s .e x p o s e d to th e 12 - 13 TCDD p o t e n t i a l l y i n t h e TCP o p e r a t io n o r i n th e 2 , 4 S5 -T o p e r a t io n - -'i U "fr-''-;';i '1. i \ ^{ . : ..-r' "v**> ',-rV.">.`.'viT-`>v> o"r -in. . 4m. a i''n t e' n* ja n+*c e4n* 7f"i'. ,*6 *i L^*i*'''*'* *^ :1 ^ V A `-<. V 4'm K' " f r \ 1 r. _ ^*.c 'V v- - r *! V ' , r.. k ?^ j * - /" 7'1 . - 7' . ' 14" 'A ['v -7 - r. = , q ,`a S o s o m e o n e h a d t o d e q l ' d e . -f * , .r.-. . .1f'> r' J'; `( ,t h a t r had to come-down '' -i^V , fc%V'" . *,L1' ' ~ w ith a FO RM IL 24 B . 7 ** - 11^5l ' ;Fd, e c i-s i o n ,.a s .J t o * w h-o<V\ wa s ' -j*e xii.-p-o s e d ^a~n d. vr w h d.7jw- a en f t ? ` r l -. . kr0O!" ' : 1 6 - Jx- * ! "-'L` - A- . ' Y e s - ' .s i r/ r ' - .' r rh s- `J- s\ i i,/ 5 >. -i,ii' / r `v;'-iA. t.ikf 1' y iA" ii: .* ' r:. - B d Y O N N E l N .J . 0 7 0 0 2 3O7- r. >-17 '= ".r-.'Q l -And who w a s i t ' t h a t m ade t h a t - d e c i s i o n ? ; ; 0- t - -' , ` ' J , ' A 1 . / v 1 "zbZJ. p IS. r 1 * :* A 'Vt l - F" i n1r, ai*&al l *fyh(. i t :. j w` a s . r;D /' r , . *' . ' S u sk in d * r ` ^ 1 > J 5m 4. 191., Q D i d M o n s a n t o haVe^^ a n y p a r t i c i p a t i o n i n t h a t `, ' : "^ >v ` 11 K -* ' p d ecisio n ^ - d O2U<f*-.** i - - ,..201r*, ^ w i t h Dr.r- S u s k i n d ? \ , - ' 2 1 J A O nly In vh a t t,, - , ' V - .- >`_ f ^- ^( . ; 7. 7:*.v '' ' '' we t o l d .him t h e if,i ^ `v ' 7 ,- - * ,, ` - ,, \ job assignm ents, were *^ _ h . >1 , , and , `22. o u r d e s c r i p t i o n ^ w h a t ';'.t h o s e : J o b , a s s i g n m e n t s m e a n t ;! - ` i" * -j 2 i .. Q A iid t h a t ca m e .fro m s o m e b o d y a t t h e p l a n t ? 7 ^ " 24 - A ' 'Y.es.i , , " J _J" ^' -J *7 V'- ^ -r ; ' j : ' 1 a L r J7 1^ -* ,, ->yT, ds **r 7-<11 * \ , J* 1 ,1 ( "1" 1 y % 7 J .''77, -77'V-; ,1 ' ' , ' - 1 1' " ; v 1* 2 ^ i` " -Jr 4 *r '-7 ;7' * " 4- 1 Q Max Galloway and perhaps others? 2 A Right, __ 3 Q How, what was Max Galloway's title? 4 A Personnel at one time, and environment* It's hard to 5 say when that changed, 6 Q So at one time he was Involved In personnel? 7 A And then he became environmental* 8 Q And then he was involved in the environmental aspects 9 of the plant? And he was there to tell Dr. Suskind what a 10 utility operator did? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Or wh a t ;a maintenance man did?; . fc;, ; ' 1 '; . * ,' , 13 A Yes, sir/ 14 Q And where,,,they would ,,be. In the plant? 15 A Yes, sir* < *'i 1 v.* : 16 Q Correct? .'All right* And Dr* Suskind had access to 17 reeords? 18 A Yes* 19 Q What records did he fjave access to?. \ * 20 M R . C A R R : Counsel la slipping back Into the habit of 21 testifying for the witness. 22 THE COURT! Could you, rephrase your question so they 23 aren1t leading? 24 Q Did he have any access to records? ;V - \ . -' . Li: y ^ l; ' p: t V- " V-' * 48 . r >** " iF ' H" . " * _.1 1. \2 ; Y e s , He. h a d t h e , w o r k r e c o r d s - a n d I n a d d i t i o n t o t h a t - he had a c c e s s to t h e m e d ic a l re c o rd s o f .th e se people \ r t 't ,J , " r ' y V; " \ 1 ' .. V - - 1r' 3: `' Q A t t h e p l a n t ? - " r; v ; ; `- T., KmM 4 ' A' y Yes.i ; / ' l' ' V " ; <' . / . i5 ' : q . O kay. So th en what was .th e n e x t s te p ,, s i r ? 6 1 A '" The n e x t t h in g .w d s V t o I s s u e t h e l e t t e r s "and to s e e w h at :7. p e r c e n t a g e o f p e o p le who w e re I n v i t e d w o uld c o a e , ' : . ` ' - y. * r* `l ' - - - / : J '* - ' ,8 -: , -, i ' ? /- Q Um hmriw j ` / . ' \ ;- v` ; a 'v- And t h a t w a s done/, / " : ^^ ' , r / " - V t r" ` 10 ; 11 v \ / y ; : Q 'y A l l r i g h t , L A n d `w e r e ,, t h e r e p e o p l e t h a t 'V r "a J * T. 1. t s%J-A**i-. i 1 'J.T Hi jV ^ Y a s . i a i r . . / ' t . ; f o V: " f . i \ . V J ' - U `; i ' . v - ' *> V- \* - t \ v v ' / ' d id 1 , ' 1i * - r* j' - L' i n o t c o n e ? ;. ' . . ^ L V - . 12 , \Q 3 / , ,/A ;V 1141 ; Jy.- q And d id anybody f in d ^ o u t w hy? ^J-- . p. -i - fiA`^`Ji * ^Jr %- t/ V* 'j ; N o , s i r . ^ ; / \ V^/t '-<V>` >/ \i ^ - J. ; v ' .// / ' y v : '...v U ' i t ; -. So t h e r e w as no i n q u i r y .as to w h y 'p e o p le d id Ll,.,k *'>c * ; fi n o t come?- 15 ,, j a N o , a i r i ; / * *- ' "lxT; . Q What'>Dr'-* S u s k l n d d i d , w a s t h e n , , w h e n t h e y g o t t h e ^ .17 , answ ers , ' ir from the p e o p le,th at w an ted to do . l t , . w h at d id he,,do? 18 V ' ' MR;' rCARRt 1O b j e c t i o n , , y o u r H o n o r * ' j P E N G A D C O .* B A Y O N N E , H ,J , 19 20/ 21. 'J ^ THE iCOURTs ` O b j e c t i d h s u s t a i n e d . *<1 , ' * t- % Q - . What d id .he do a t, t h a t p o in t , ' s i r ? ( r ' /- " . - *' t /'J : J i*> . A -V A fte r g ettin g , the responses back? :w V* j ` ' j /. ''// ; - ' , ,*r .. ; y ' " ' V 22 - ' ; Q- '-Yes'/ s i r , ` , ; r ; - : ' / ; ^. ' .//'*-. ' - : j:"' . k 23 4* ./ 'V A ' He s e t up t h e e x a m l n e t i p n p r o c e d u r e 'and h a d ' a. t a s k g r o u p -1` '* 24 o f p h y s i c i a n s , g e n e r a l 'p h y s i c i a n s , n e u r o l o g i s t s , n e r v e ^c o n d u c i l o * 1 # ' / / / ; - V I * ' k, * L' v ; ' / A ' . / ,,,v.'V " 'r j y : , 1 -J : - : * ' J - .` . * - J ^ * 'f r -V , V t mif-- - i Jrt -' _i ?y~ . : y r* ^ r* / yf 49 I'. pulmonary physioiogisty as well ae nurses who were to do the 2 / ' questioning' as putting together..theJmadical history, and they ' ` ' . _' - 'ri . , f, ^ KJ'^'\ \ ' . ,V , V>V>; ` ` 'r' , L- . 3 were all ready to do theexamination with that work force. \ f f , /'' f;/v 4: Q Now, ;Lthe"ir at- o n e I w a s h 1 1 , sure nwhether>the,first \>r o <w .\ --v it t- . ^ jv i~> * 5* i f T^ - j* t-v ^ v ir > v;^ H . -5. doctor you, named.was a neurologist or a urologist. , ^^ 1 r j -r *L rIJ V 4 V * ' , "*(" *\ ' * y * i- - 6 A: 'The first roney^ there-is *a; general internist Lwtho did the L . /v.r .;J r.`V-. '/V ---V'" - 7 -- - - i j.7 . 1 general medical examination, hut there was a neurologist- who ,dl 8 specific examinations, - ,, `9 ; - Q . Neurological.exams? , ^ *' . v L 1io; V ; " r. A' Yes. : . . V r. *; . `' .. v*. ' 'V" y*' v'' ^r. . . r" . V '' J* ' . '> .r'. .- 11: Q And there was some' sort .of physiologist,'.did I understand 12 v 7 you 'to Bay? ' . . _ / 7 . f- 13 '*/<?. A y *'There was a .pulmonary physiologist v r_y - 14'1'. 15 r**^ 16 ,Q Pulmonary physiologist? ', v 1- 1' ' 1" 1 ^1 A " -And ,there was a. iierv.fi conduction'. ^ .1,J- .-r 1 J' 'r 1,i-' * -^ " J ** '*', f-', .. r *Q=' All, right. Now,'when did; the, were there; interviews 17'. \ that ^occurred? .7 ; - ;. li ^ A - Every man who participated in";this, examination had 'an Ji *T ^ c ' s ^ ^J j .^ 19 interview by a nurse who was trained in the handling of this 20. ' `L7r :."questionnaire^ j'7 ., 7 jj _* . '' 4 ^ ` ;-r ^_ ^ 21 \ Q `-'Now, when did ;the interview occur as.opposed to the 22"n phys ica 1 examina tion 7' How did that com e .about ? ^ y7 ,,23 A ;They 'started the histories and"the physical examination 24 about the same>time,, so there was some overlap with;the history ; b a y o n n e . N .J ., -" /* 1 ` ' ',,ir > /** rp 50 1 being taken .out of -relationship 'to -the 'physical examination, / 2 but overall/It was :trying to keep down the time that the men ;JV ,"* ^\/\' '? ;v i*r`i- 3 were Involved -In .thls.^tudy because "there was complaint by the v - - -' ; t ./ ??:, ;s?v 4, people who ,had:been Involved In the .Selikoff study, Moses study 5 about the length ofr Vo time:.'they /[- 1'iIL f;\' were iS * nvo' \ lved in the examination. ' /, ' ? >-v. r-?i ^ / : :6 so the attempt was made to`streamline it oo.that they didn't '`* ^ i J,J , ''V*L.J'''(. :.1*>->i '* -j '/,,J,I1't,?j,iV"^*-Sl -A5'" Vv' * ^ f r 'V .J I f - r '^* 7 have to sit around a/great deal of-'-time. So there was. an 8' overlap in. how they, they mixed'them?up In o r d e r .to keep the 9: time d o w n <and the big holdup they had was.doing; nerve conductio 10. that took i n . 4 long time, and so they h a d ,to work around that 11 In; keeping .that schedule .going/,. .\ , ^ , 7 / V ,. '' 12 Q' ~A11 right, So-that^there were interviews and physical ' 13 exams going on simultaneously, but obviously n o t Jon the same 14 people? . / ,, \* ' 1 .* \ -'>*!_ ^` r ' `T / * k *\ * ` "* 15 ' A; '-Yes,, sir, > ' -- -.L -- /' / 1 ?* 16 Q .So the person that kid the interview w o u l d n o t do the * *,, , r rb ' - '- 4* J ' 1 '* _* 17 -physical? ' , - . J`"'' ,.r . v ' '18 ~\ 'A That1 s .right. ; ' ' ` '' \ ` J9 Q Now, if you would look at one of,these lab-results here 20 sir, or 'reports.' There is, a? portion of .it which. relates to t 21 'finding by the physician? ^ ?2 * .1 i` . . 23 L;; A.. ;Yes,-sir . V / S' H* * V r Q Is there, not? lJ- S,rt ;> ` ,- 7 H J1 L >/rV L t\ ^J"' 'r - * J * -- 24 : '- r A, , Yes,- sir . J * J " "'t *' BAYONNE N.j' 1 Q Now, did the physicians take any history, too? 2 '' / ' ''*, .,*! A Y e a , sir ;, i* \ 3 Q Did that accompany the physical examination? 4 A Yes, sir. We- called it review of systems, and any 5. examination you go in and eay, "I've got a cold," the doctor r, 1 j > ' p 't ij. ' 6 will check for the cold. 'J But he may check some other organ, 7 systems that may be related to that. In other words, if he had 8 a cold in, the chest, he may look to see whether you've got any 9 problem with your urine or he may look to see whether you have JO a neurologic deficit with it, or he could look to see if you hat 11 .any sign of generalised infection. So the review of systems is 12 not looking at a present illness but looking at a general ravies 13 of effects related to all of the organ systems of the body. 14 Q Go through item by item? 15 A Item by item. 16 Q And insofar as the cancer history is concerned, sir, wh: 17 Inquired about that? 18 A The nurse questionnaire asked the question, and it's 19 stated her finding, and It is specifically listed on Page 13. 20 Q All right. Was there anybody else that would inquire-- 21 MR. CARR: Your Honor, I would object unless counsel 22 establishes that this witness was there and knew who inquired 23 and under ,what circumstances. 24 MR. HEINEMAN: Well,. I think it is apparent from the 52 ^ record, yo u r H o n o ry it was^jinfo'rmationjiin the physician's notes t -r~ 1 . - ; ii , ,* ,j ' , f. " " * } J. 1 j J, t 1 ,, - j .v./' v - ' ; . n: > . ' ; v . *. - -about- cancerv r Kr'- - ' ^ . s v ,, , r.- - ^ `*'V 'K 1 > v -." * ` '\.y . ' - -' * ` ; , r-MR CARR::f~That.' av 8 ure , ;bu t *you |re no<t asking about, whajt ' -' - ' ' :5' ; (/oV> 11'-' *J?V'' ` *-i-w-i --*1 rtf Vhleb 'tntoA tt'cA sD 'sasa<lyf, crt oA ut mnsO Ae'l1 y*oAlul'Ire- aaost kp ^itnl gA ^tVh4iOs wiV t - tness who got that " J - ^ ;V V i!- ''"i `information, from particularypeople, and this witness I submit has testified earlier that he wasn't. there. c\ ' ,THEi COURT.:, rObjection sustained.., - Q Doctor what if'anything is. demonstrated by the records that you have before you in Plaintiff's Exhibit 1468 as to .whether or not the physicians' obtained any information about '.cancer history?. .; V ;/ A The record is made up of at least two physicians on eac)i one of these records. The dermatologists did the examination of th e ;sklnTand the general internist-did. the rest, of the ... r i- r- - J,L i i . . p\ 1 j 1 ^ - 1 , . \ -J * L- , .4 - *' _> examination., So. in .this record by the physician-he would, look at each one of these organ systems' not only did he look at the ,1 organ? system but ^he-also asked-- . j; ' ^ y - t> MR. CARR: 'Object to that unless the witness was there - He can sfate what' the record shows he can't statewhat took place unless.he was t h e r e .. .. .L- . THE COURT: `Objection .sustained.. 1 ***/ ' i ''V ! ` ; J MR.:^^-.CARR: ->If he^was there i^sute don't mind but I 'd like to make it clear that he i s t e e t i f y i n g t o what he. dedupes U ` k- /- i , v V ^ ^ 1 p- . . * w ^ ^t `from. the .record .and not' from, having been there. ' n. 1 THE COURT: ' Could you rephrase your questions according 2 Objection sustained. 3 Q Doctor, you were not there at the time? 4 A No, sir; - . ^ V 5 Q - And never did maintain that you were there? 6 A No, .sir. 7 Q Hhat you are describing io-- is what you are describing 8 now what you are deriving from the records that you have looked ^r 9 at? 10 A Y e s , si r . 11 Q Okay.. Now, what do the records demonstrate about what 12 these physicians did? 13 A This record X have before me, I just look at the one 14 on the top, and under skin it lists that the doctor looked at 15 this man and said he was of Irish and Dutch ancestry, retired 16 since 1967, living in Florida, recently had ten skin lesions 17 burned off. Prior to this denies any skin disorder. No job 18 related complaints and no acne. That's history related to the 19 akin, and this was written by the dermatologist. 20 MR. CARR: I object to that unless he knows it was 21 written by the dermatologist. 22 THE -COURT: Objection is sustained. Could you go into 23 that, If you would? 24 Q You're reading from what appears on the record, correct L 'i 1 sir? r. `* \ rj 2 ; A Yes, sir. This was written by a physician, this section 3 Q And how do you know that, sir? 4 A Because the physical findings are listed and the physics 5 findings would be done by a physician* Now. the skin findings 6 are written by different handwriting than the rest of the 7 examination* Not only that, but in the summary, if there was 8 significant abnormalities on history or in physical findings, 9 the dermatologist would-list that as well* 10 Q All right. So you can tell by looking at the record 11- that a dermatologist did one portion and the Internist did 12 another? 13 A Y e s , si r . 14 Q And In the skin portion of this first record that you 15 are looking at, there Is a notation that the man is of what? 16 A Of Irish and Dutch ancestry* 17 Q So that's certainly not something he'd find by looking 18 at his skin, is it,.sir? 0 19 A No, sir. 20 Q So can you assume that he took some sort of history at 21 .the time that he did that skin examination? 22 A Y e s , si r 23 Q Now, why would ho be Interested in the man's ancestry ir 24 looking at hlo skin? . " VL , '- -i5 i, : . '-`i` f li - v f V\r <>-:'- .i :. f :` \ v ..'< / / - ' ' ; >' ' l- -- ' . 1 > w* 1 .v .- . .v * 1 -;J.-tJ. f'1 v; ; J`. *. A ; ]Becauae^in,'tiiiB case, 'the m a n of Irish: and'Dutch ' >. 2V .ad c eatry-, he then':dee'cr^ib'es,him' a* having fair akin and blue , 3 eyes,'and that's what he le relating those' to. . . 4,J Q . And ;does he describe him/as having .been, in Florida? V 5 * A v Yes , air. / t v' ' ' / 6/. Living ln^ Florida? ' . / 7`. A - Yes,.sir. . .* 8' ' 1 9 And ;having had how many skin lesions : ( *. j/* Q t * .. '? i1v' 1 1`: 'A / rTe'n sk-in -lesi1ons X^-burned'.off'."-;' - removed? -, j 1 Jr*\ id . ' -Q "... Ten?. * . il >V"'\a 1,, - fy **1*. ;`*R'if*-ghrt1. .,,-/ - - . p1 1 '.,-/ -;u - ` - '- : * r '* . ' , J i * '>L ir 4 ^ - r ' /^V,P'- j x ^^ 12 .q 'All/right : Now,/ do you know, ai r ,/whether:'haying..skin ^ j. 13 . lesions and living In Florida Is related In any way? 44 ; A The Implication; of the dermatologist 1b that'.he was IS concerned about this man. being exposed, to the .sun In the south \ where the sun certainly vis a great, deal more -prevalent In'days, .17/" a well as Intensity aa here In S t . L o u i s or'In Nitro, West '/ , *J j \ , .-V.1 '' .< . 1 18. ~ 'Virginia. .rA v ^V- v . Lr ,-</' .1. ' v 1> '' '- . '\ r Sl r. _ i - 1 J. ,, 1 -t* - * ' L*l ^ 19 - . Q ; Do .you know whether fhe.re-- Is* there any relationship ... 20 - between ,skin lesions and stin exposure?, /"- /, ' ' ' +i j *r l 't ^ ' - t ;n ^r 'j j' ./ J 21 v ll ^. y * - r.i ' 1 `L ` tt A.' This is one of the best described 'environmental effects 22 ^ --IS the -effect of-the sunlight -on*;the .skin.' 1r " ^ - V V. ; * :y - A S k /* J- /:r;/ > ; ' ,\\- 23 f -'Q- As a matter ot tatti-^ sir, Is there a .word' called .24 actinic in'.the-medical dictionary? ` f >'P: '.f . K?-i;,j ^ ` r X " `'- .I* ' J V y . V iy C1 ' - J - - 1 * m ''j*' j, c ti-^ ' i' ' j '-'J !; --- ' v- . ; . 56 1 `'Y1V"* .3 A Yes.-sir'.,./?'xf:. ,\ ' ,J `V/ .. l.r -V ' , vrJ , V'v; ` ' '' Q Khat does actlnicVmean? . -v^ v . ' ,, - -v ' ' ' '] - ..j f' A I'm* not aura,'but I think It mesne. It. Is related' to 4 ' ultraviolet damage L ,J. 5\ ' Q Related to ultraviolet damage as far as,you know? Nov, 6 : air,, at,the time that the physical exam was taken, and obviously ' 7 * from the records some history-was 1 ' m i 1' JK L + ** " t , i 8 A Yes, they were. taken " by the :physlcln? j' , i" " ^ ^ 9 . ; " Q Nhat occurred after. that, or simultaneously? 10 ` A By whom,'by th ^dermatologist? The dermatologist did 11. an. examination .on this man; and ;he stated that In addition tor i ' _V 'i"i .; ' 7,, j 'r'-, ' i * r " '4'- '%,'* ' i / ; 12 ; having'fair skin a n d b l u e eyes; he had extensive actinic damage 'v 13 :on.hie forehead, face, neck, and arms'. There was a five millimeter ' r f t -> , * r ^ j jr .14 . ^dome-shaped lesion with central crater on.the right-side of his 15 nose, two small open comedones were seen on the right cheek. ' H 1* H :L 7* k '*L -*1 .J^ Jr 11 ` L' *.-- 4 V'J * - *rL-*1 - . 16:v Q Now, at-or about the time of the.dermatologist exam,,, 17 another physician performed.additional physical examination?: 'S A V O N N E . N .J 18 ; f \ A -'Yes',;sir. .,, *V - - j * ^ M i* j -4,l ^^ t !v, ( v 4r ^ i `* r .-- '11 -^ C ^ .* M -- ; "V " _, -j ~ " *,, " V ' 1 Jn. 19: '-Q - Now, at the'time pY aftr:the time ^of the physical, 20' <; 21 . ; - examinations, * 't"A >J. -r r people? . then r* ' * ' what , n- ^ % happened? k I ' 1 J ' What ' ^ '''J else ir \ was .done, with thes r, * - tIV r_ , " ' ^ " * * - *; ' ' K -i. 22; . After the physical examlnatlp.n? . K 23 n ^ ^ 9 ;" /YesV[:sifv`" '- f ` ?j *' ' ' -' .'- * r, > - * '* j` ' -- , 24 ^ A Either before -or after., he had- the laboratory tests1 run L1 1- ', ' r . ' L' ' ' . ', `i ' . ' J.* ,-v, r-' ' ' r'/' J.' ' ' - 1 '- : r `rJ r. -- J- - . r -u% , .. v" v J 1 that aeons blood was drawn, a urinalysis was obtained, pulmonar 2 function testing was done, chest x-ray was done, electrocardio 3 gram was done, and nerve conduction was done, at least that. 4 Q And so the results of all that Information would be 5 gathered and then what was done with all of that? 6 A It waa assembled and the decision was then as to how * 7 to relate all of these examination in some form* But in 8 addition to that, a letter was written to each one of the 9 employees who was examined if he wanted a report of his examine^ 10 Q Asking if he wanted one? 11. A . Yes, sir. He had to sign, a release In order for 12 Dr. Susklnd to send a report to his family doctor. 13 Q All right. And we've seen the letter a few moments ago 14 to you from Dr. Susklnd about writing those letters to the 15 physicians, la that right? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q And in order to do that, he had to have a release from 18 the individual person? 19 A Yes. 20 Q How, In the examination of you by Mr. Carr, there vae 21 some discussion, as I recall, about what Dr. Susklnd wanted In 2 2 - terms of his relationship with those people, vis a vis, Monsanto 23 relationship with the people, do you remember that? 24 A Yes, sir. - - hL' 1< . , t .i u i [:U ;a t :. ; - c -l* 58 r Q What was' it that Dr..Suskind wanted in connection with i- ; the relationship to those .people? 3 . ; - A Dr, Suskind wanted these people tO;:knov that his - 4 examination that.was' being done was independent of Monsanto and J* J 5- he had no relationship to;'us on what he d id1 and nhe therefore 6 ,Was going to. write ,his own letters to' those involved and he, ; 7vv ` wanted, to' know/the workers could 'talk ,to him; independently; of/ ''8 _; X^' 9, 10 - what Monsanto would know because these"records would not be . made available to. us. v f.-`' "* 1 .v ^ 1 v-ri; _ " , - ;\ Q ' N o w , t h e fact 'of'course is -Doctor that h e v a s paid/for 11 J-these" studies? , . n. - Y-- ^' .k%_n `r ' F ~ 1 '' 12- / '-.A, Yes*' sir.' ' j t\ . ' ' ^ -r . J 13 . -r-T .14 q : ,Now,; how, indeed,' did that payment' occur? 'Was he paid ,, r* L ' Lr - t J, . h\ ^ directly by Monsanto Comapny? 'X l; j- ' " t 15. ; A I' d o n 't recall rthe organisation, but 'this one was' " . *'' '/ v<V- ' -V V ' *;-J./ 1 16- funded, a figure' was made-;ah to estimates, as to how much was going "17 ' to cost and ,it was so much-money we had.: to give1 him immediately 18,: when he w e n t t h Q r e b e c a u s c h e had to pay for both-the transportation 19 from Cincinnati t o .Charleston by airplane ,for^ each one of those v20 - /involved. '.He had to' pay for "their hoiel rooms or motel rooms -/ r 21 and for their meals while, they were there, plus any lother -2 2 ' ; 23' ' expenses that.might .be .accrued. So he had'-to. have some money * L - . /_ t;r -*'/ !/*'/ '* ' '- -t--,, *v ;, , - ' ; .. /-; right away;.": And then the subsequent payment was related to ,:.i ^ - '-v y- . 24 *' how\ much we s-ar.ii-d;; w; at -V. stii/.l;!l.-o*we;d'-and^howLvh were/going,, to k1eep.. . " ' - >Tft V , - :v. -r W r , - /- * v,,'" * :S , 'V ' '. '. ` ; . -' 1 : i: t . ! ' tf. , rEFVGAD CO., BAYONNE. N.J ,,out ten percent again for final payment. 1 Q Was there a ten percent clause in that relationship? 2 A , Yes, sir. 3 _ Q Now, do you know as you sit here now whether or not 4 the payment by Monsanto went directly to him or whether it went 5 to the University of Cincinnati wh then paid his expenses? .Do 6 you know how that works? 7 ,^ A It went to the University of Cincinnati. 8 Q Went ,to the, University* of Cincinnati", and they would 9 pay the expenses.? - * 10 ?" .. ! , A Yes * .. * ; : 11 J ; / ' '^ >v -,` ;''' ; i L * ht Q How, other than his' expenses, 'sir, in connection with 12 \this study, was he paid anything by Monsanto Company, any fee 13 for services or anything like that? 14 - A No, I can't give, you the details; but by and large a ,, 15 university would do a study like that, there would be direct 16 expenses plus there would be an overhead charge for whatever the 17 university--every .study done by. ajuniversity has an overhead . 18 charge which pays for other things that the university does, 19 20 and so this would Include an overhead charge, 21 Q Now, what would1 tjiat ,,overhead charge cover, sir? 22 A It would be unrelated to what the Kettering Laboratory 23 `was doing,' but that overhead.charge would go to the university. 24 Q Now, `yp,u said* every university, now, when.you were at tb . ` ` 'r - -'A V : ' : * ,n r y * ' -L f* * i~"* * 1> ^ ,. T- # *' * _" J +1 (J L - - V* ^` J- ` - "'i ** v> *- 1 U n i v e r s i t y ' - o f - P i t t s b u r g , : i s ;, t h a t th e . w ay t h a t u n i v e r s i t y d i d I t ? '2;. v . X Yee", s i r . *> ` u -v ' , *'_/ 3 : Q Wheii y o u w e r e . a t - t h e ^ U n i v e r s i t y o f C i n c i n n a t i , i s t h a t . - . . / 4,-'' t h e w a y t h a t h e d i d i t ? ^. \ -5 ./A Y es, .s ir. '6 ;' 1 . 8r - .9 , , J " r -Q.'v ^_ ir" ' is. that V. ' \ ( When yo u y e r e a t t h e way., t h e y d id Tulane U n iv e r s ity it ? . " '/ . . in th e.m ed ica l school _ '-a ; . A \ Y e s . , ' s i r it v.'' . ^ . a (T-1"' n y v >; ^ "i / ' 'v - i '''/ 1 ' - - : ` l ,l : , , /' ,, r-'. V ' . " Q ' So t h e r e . i s ; a n ^ o v e r h e a d 'c h a r g e ? - * .1: , 1 ", : >' ' J` . ,J lb '. ' ;-/! ; a- n' ; .q , Y e s , 1 s i r . ; . ' < . - r - - `l.. '* ' L. -.''r ^"Vi J;. >1 \ ,j-f .'" `1 fj?'o,..^ a-I/,' ` , `-VN,, . `. \ ' .'"i" Now,, d o es ; S u s k in d ; g e t - p a id ;o r 'does he j u s t ' get< h i s ' ' t 1-'> 12 ' s a l a r y ? 13 / ; a -;r i Ai r : - r V -V ' -:y -k ' He* g e t s h i s s a l a r y w h e t h e r h e d o e s . t h i s , study \ or not. , 1 14 v ' ; H' " V * m*. 15 - i . - ozak.t i 16- 1i , `< A l l , r i g h t . He g e ts , a s a l a r y ,,fro m t h e u n i v e r s i t y ? p a ThatJ's rig h t'. v ? -f V -. . ' ^Q j ' And ijt h e n h e g e t s ,, '" * . `' exp en B esreiin b u rsed / V.v . ^ r . -v in ^connect ion 1 poO> . -'17 \, th is; study? 1 , . w, ;; `, w ith ; z zzO/Wi *-<ffl 1- Ou 'f*KVQ* , - ' j Q. 18 , * 19t '' 20 , 21 ' V :1'A ;v.Q Yes,;., s i r . ' ; ;And i s ' t h e r e fin a n cia l, .^ t h a, t * A*;/. ' V Not f o r is ? t- . J; him , J-r . _ - "4 anything e ls e th a t her p e rs o n a lly g ets,-1. ^ ,? V *r -. he'do ean*t . , . , ' ;'v ` ,jy , " '- , -r ' ' 1- get any m o re ^ sa la ry h is ; -V -P . - -s a la r y . .. ,22 i s f i x e d a n d -'th is fund i s u sed ,to" pay f o r th e o u t - o f - p o c k e t , t. _ I% t, ' .- ' 11 t .i . F '* 1 V 23 *J ' 24 . expenses, < - ' . a l l 1t h o s e < ' p ': W hether i t ' s f o r th e p e o p le who w ent down to C h a r le s t o H l- - ^ i -r `( ", ^ ^ .^ J '* 4 * who,^ w e n t ' down t h e r e , t h e i r - e x p e n s e s ,, a s w e l l a s p a y in g *y r' L* \ JJ _* 1 ." "4 '1 ' r r ri * *1 ,' ' / - / l `` * ~ ` -***,# ~\ ,y ** k 1 rf ,* " - y -r - r- j ** ^ '1 . t. v 61 1 . to the university for-., their^time in', doing that examination, all \-2 l th'e laboratory people that went down there, th e fpulmonary ; '3';: physiologist's, and the nerve conduction, their expenses had to - if \4 . ,be paid1ae well as paying the university for their time. Then" . y' "^ Ky ' ' t ` *' ,^, ' L 1* F1`J r S ' " , the computer-time had to be paid for,; as well'as the technician' 6 " who operated, the computer . 1 1 y l- ; j Q Now, {that's" university computer,?/ . r- v- ` ' ^ * i 4 J1 A .rj ^\ i,'M h ^ '8 . " " ` A - \l - Yes .r- 'J' 5 T -i * T ; '*'' -i -1 ' V ^ a t 2 ^> '<- -C. V " '" --. \'I\. y r IT ' t v ,* '* * ' h r' y ' ` '*w ' (^ -V >9 . `,J Q1' , That .ish Vt-Monsanto f computer?" _ -C 1 *' ,, - 1 \ . " : \y 10 v t^-v- A No, sir. ; '-V V - " . ' ,J l ' . ' ; -\ v '< r:,/ ; y* , : \ `, * '' 11 ^ A-, , Q - That *a `e cpmputar at 1thelUniversity 6 f .Cincinnati7 r 12 - A' . That-*is right. " 13'. f4 v . ,Q: How, sir, .if all be,gets is his salary and expensed, /, 4 ' r, v j-. Li * j' r*^ v J j % * y r - ,, W* P *. ~ J i why in ;the eWorld did.it make any difference to.'hlm to get this : ,15 . final $8600 bill paid before he retired? ^ .* 16 ;f ' . .. *- . r *- t . V A . There is a ledger with his name bn it-and in there it 17 states, that there is outstanding $8600. that is due the universlt J8 .and it io listed on .hia name and-he wanted to .clear up t h o s e r ' *j ^ ' 'r / I 19 booksjbefore .he. retired saying the money was, if he could get 20, it; he wanted to have' that ae clean ae he, icould.get it. 21 Q Mow, w a s .there a ledger, like that maintained.when you 22 y 'V- ' s " 1 '? j -; i*^', j 1 r ,'* : ... were at the University^ of Cincinnati? ; .v \ ",f-r .\ ^ ., 23 * A . Yea,' . s i r , : ^ t `` ' 24- ,j . y , . *- - .' *-* Q So t ha t * s t h a r e ason h e want ed t h e $ iB6 00 bill cleared up B A Y O N N E. N .J . 0 7 0 0 2 1 A Yea, sir. 2 Q I mean, was that money going to come to him? 3 A No, sir. 4 Q Now, once they got all of the data that the lab reports, 5 correct? You will have to answer out loud. 6 A Y e s , sir. * '\ '\ 7 . Q The iab/reports,' they ?ve got the results of interviews, 8 correct? . " 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q They've. got the, results: of'.physical exams and histories 11 from the physicians? \2 A Yes, sir. 13 Q They've got nerve conduction tests and various other 14 tests other than just blood and urine? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q That have been done,.pulmonary function, I think you 17 said? Now, that data all goes back to Cincinnati, any of that 18 come to St. Louis? 19 'A No, sir. 20 Q Any of it come to Monsanto? 21 A No, sir. 22 Q Did you have anybody,look at any of that data at any 23 time prior to the time when Mr. Carr showed you this Group 24, Exhibit 1468? I A No, sir. 2 Q -Now, why did Susklnd,, I think you mentioned that he want 3 it that way? 4 A ' Yes, sir. 5 Q He wanted it that way? U '1 `4 * Jt 6 A Y e s , ^sir. . '* ., . - ; ) 7 Q Why did he want t.t that way.? 8 A Because he .hoped ^that if there' was something that the 9 workers would tell him-that they hadn^t told us, that he would 10 be able to get it. In other words, there would be a freer 11 communication between that man and his private doctor than there i- ' 12 would between that man and Monsanto In terms of his health, 13 Q Mow, some of these fellows did, well, did any of them 14 have the Nltro plant physicians as their personal physician? 15 Are you aware of any of them that did? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q All right. Now, what, would happen with that information 18 A The information would go to him. 19 Q To the plant physician? 20 A If the letter was written in agreement with the man, the 21 letter would be written from Susklnd to Dr. Wallace. 22 Q All right. So If the man said that Dr. Wallace was his 23 personal physician because he didn't have another physician? 24 A Yes, sir Q. And If he signed ,& release form? 1 A Yes . ' r Q Then Susklnd would send that information to him? 3 A Y e s / sir. 4 ' , 4 " ' * L p P t 11 + . / Q All right- Did,you get any of-that information? 5 L'r ` , , * ,fc >- A No, sir. 6 . 7 Q Why not? b , r. i 'w 8 A Because it was between Dr. Suskind and that man. ` ;J r f : * *V * -$ . JlV ~* ` 9 Q But the plant physician got a copy of some of those? 10 A Only when he was a personal physician* 11 Q And so are you telling me, sir, that when Dr. Wallace' 12 at the Nitro plant had a copy of John Jones' lab results and 13 physical exam results, that he didn't give that to. you? 14 A I do n 't know whether .ha put it into the medical report 15 or hot. He may have. 16 Q Well, did he give it .-to you? ` , 17 A No, sir. ^ , 18 Q Did he send it'to St., Louis? 19 A N o , sir. ,, 20 Q He may have put.it.in a medical file at the plant? 21 A That./s right. j 22 Q And you do n 't know that one way or the other? 23 A N o , sir.' 24 Q Was there any effort by your department,to find out what 1 those letters from Suskind to Wallace had to say? 2 A No, sir . , 3 Q Why not? ' _. 4 A It was on intrusion into the privacy that he had eatabli 1^ i ' 1 j L,f k 5 with the man, i `. f , `L. i* , ,i J ./ r^ %r\j ,1 6 Q Now, once-thls.OdatV was assembled in Cincinnati, what 7 did they do with it? , ... . (, n' - ' r > Vy ii` 8 A He had to put--organlze the data in some form so that he 9 could put together similar Items rather than going through that 10 record, he could have just taken the records and started a 11 tabulation by history, by physical examination, by laboratory 12 on each man and kept a list of them just by sheer writing out 13 the data. That would have been so laborious, that would have 14 taken longer than the five years that It took him. So Instead 15 of that, he computerized, this data base and apparently he start 16 up and became frustrated, and then started up again in 1982 or 17 1983 when he got a new person in the computer that enabled him - 18 to get the report out. 19 Q You say there was a gap from *79 until *82 or '82? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q Now, was Monsanto raising a n y .cane about this? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q Who was doing it? 24 A Mr. Throdahl, my boss. 1 Q All right. 1 gather that sort of thing.flows downhill* r did any of that come down on you? J 1v ** A *\ , **i 3 A Yes,;,sir.' ,r-** .*_ '' i : '1 '*^r 1* *^'(' ^ '1 4 Q Did you, make your feelings known to Dr. Suskind? t , *( -.' '' ' ' A. r 5 A Yes; air.^` ^ *.. 6 Q And what did y o u flet/him know? 7 .A Well, Dr. Suskind already knew about it. Mr. Throdahl 8 had taken me .and Dr. Suskind to HEW to tell them that we had 9 some knowledge about dioxin and he had promised the HEW man* 10 I.don't know who it was now, that within a year or two yaarB 11 we would, have the report to him. So along about 1982, 12 Mr. Throdahl was beginning to be concerned about he wasn't 13 keeping his promise. 14 Q Now,, let me understand this. In 1980--whan was the trip 15 to HEW? 16 A 1 don't remember.- I think it was 1982, but I could be 4t 17, wrong by a year. % i 18 Q It could be .'81? 19 ^ A Sure. , 1- 20 Q Did you have any of these results by then?' ,21 A No, sir,. . `. 22 Q Did you have any knowledge of what the*, outcome of that 23 study was at that time? , ... 24 A No, sir. I Q And at that time Monty Throdahl, senior vice president ^ , '* * > ", , t( 2 of M o n s a n t o ._ ; 't;; 1 \ ',r -yj ,, 'V. '<1 ' 3 A Yea, sir* 4 Q --went to the Health,. Education and Welfare Department 5 in Washington? 6 A Yes. \i' ; 7' Q And told them what, sir? 8 A That ve had a report .that we're going to be getting out 9 on the health experience of our Charleston, West Virginia plant. 10 Q But he didn't have the report? 11 A No. - 12 Q So he got exercised? . 13 A Yes. 14 Q And that got you exercised? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q And you started talking to Suskind about it? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Had you had any parlor conversations with Suskind about 19 getting that report out? 20 A When they would send,. I've forgotten, there were several 21 Invoices from the first one until the final ten percent, and 22 when he would ask for more money, we would say where is our 23 report. 24 Q So you were.having that problem with the Nitro report 1 as well as with* therKrummrieh, 'report? 2 A Yea, sir* 7i , '^ , *: 3 rQ \ Now, what did; he do froin 79 t'o 181? You said something * i 4 about him being frustrated? 5 A He had difficulty, he didn't tell us all that, but we 6 did talk to him and he was having difficulty getting the data 1 computerized or getting Into a data, base where he could handle 8 it. ' 9 Q All right. And who was it that came on the scene that 10 permitted him to get that done? 11 A * Vicky Hertzberg. 1 ,, 12 Q Who was a computer specialist? 13 A Yes *. 14 Q And so he could get it on the computer beginning sometic 15 in *82? 16 A Or *83, sometime 182-83 , in that time frame. 17 Q ' Now, the first time that you saw a draft was when, sir? 18 A I've forgotten the. date, 1 don't remember; 19 Q Now,, this was' a draft of the report, right? 20 A Yeo, yes, I don't remember what that date was. 21 Q Okay, .let me show you what's been marked as Plaintiff?s 22 Exhibit No, 1479. 23 A Yes'. , 24 Q You remember going oyer that with Mr.. Carr? t' - '\ A Yes, sir. 1 Q That's/dated February, 22, 1982? 2 'i l *. A Right. 3 /_ Q Letter Vo -Suskind! from whom? ' ' 4 A From me. 5 ,, Q From you? Enclosing ..your, a copy. of. the draft that had 6 been sent to you and your notes on it? 7 A . Yes, sir , 8 Q And that's the one where you.'talked about,' you mention 9 porphyrins, but there is nothing in the-- 10 A Right, right. H - Q -report about porphyrins, and there were a number of l? other things you pointed out, correct? So" February of '82 you 13 wrote back about the first draft so you obviously got it 14 sometime before then? 15 A Yes, sir, shortly before that. 16 Q All right* Now, had TVicky Hertzberg done all of the 17 computerising by the time that that draft was sent to you? 18 1? A I can't answer that, .but my impression is that It Is 20 not, because this is a very small report, and. that's part of 21 the problem that Suskind. had was trying to put together all the 22 data, so the report after this was a large volume as compared 23 to this preliminary draft. 24 Q , So later on there was a thick one? k ' : \ l 3' ] A R i g h t ... *< 2 Q That you got? And that's exhibit-- 3 MR. CARRi' Counsel,` is he saying.that this is the report! 4 MR. .HEINEMAN: I'm sqrry? 5 MR. CARR: Is he saying 1479 ie the7report that he 6 received? 7 THE WITNESS! Yea, air, 8 MR. HE INEMAN r 1 A draft. 9 MR. CARR: `1 just wanted to make that clear. 10 THE WITNESS! A draft, yes. 11 Q Now, and my question,, sir, was with respect to the 12 computer work that Vicky Hertzberg came on board to do, whether 13 you know that that was done before you received that draft? 14 A I don't know, I think not, though. 15 Q_ All right. At the time that you got that draft, that's 16 reflected in 1479-- 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q -- had you seen, well, I guess you couldn't have seen any 19 of the back-up data because you never saw it? 20 A No, sir. 21 Q Had anyone in your department received.any of that data 22 to your knowledge? ' 23 A No, sir. ^ 24 Q So your remarks on that draft went back to Dr. Suskind? a '*\ t`l *j H 1 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q Is that* right?- And then there was a subsequent draft? 3 A Yes. . 4 Q And that is, or was t;hat, let me ask you, Plaintiff 's 5 Exhibit 1483 to the best of your recollection? 6 - A ,That's the next one .not dated. 7 Q. It doesn't have a date on it?. 8 A Y e s , <sir.. - . . . 9 Q How, as I recalls when'Mr. Carr-was questioning you you 10 said something about remembering that It came in some sort of 11 binder, some sort of folder or something, do you'remember that? 12 A Yes, it had a brown qr a tan-- a gray color, a paper 13 color, so It was bound. It had a black binding over the top of 14 it, but that's all. It w a s semi-looking like it was a final 15 report. , < 16 Q All right. Did you make any comments to Dr. Suskind 17 after .receipt of Plaintiff's Exhibit 1483? 18 A We went to Cincinnati to discuss the report, but I don't 19 recall writing to him about this o n e / 20. Q All right. You,don't recall any letter? 21 A No. 22 Q You do recall going to Cincinnati and talking to him 23 about it? 24 A Yes, sir. ` r, fr t * 1 Q You didn't see^any 'back-up data at that time? 2' A No, sir. 3 Q And do you recall what you told him? 4 A We were satisfied with what he had put together. 5 Q Well, what about the ,,Table 35, air, with respect to 6 the porphyrins, isn't that in there? - ' 7 A Yes, sir. r 8 Q Do you recall making .any complaint to him about that? 9 A No, because of the asterisk at the bottom saying these 10 were done from single void samples. 11 Q So you d o n 't recall complaining to him about that draft? 12 A No, sir. 13 Q What did you discuss with him in Cincinnati? 14 A We went through the entire document and made some 15 suggestions, but they were minor suggestions. 16 Q Do you recall now as you sit here what those suggestions 17 were? 18 A No. 19 Q Were they largely cosmetic or were they meant or offered 20 to change substantive things in the report? 21 A No, they were not substantial. 22 Q What about, well, was there anything in there that you 23 thought should not be in there? Did you ask him to take anythin 24 out? 1 A I don't recall, 2 Q You don't recall asking him to take anything out? 3 A No, 4 Q Do you recall asking .him to put anything in? 5 "A No, if I went through, I might be able to think of 6 something, but it was nothing that we talked about that was 7 substantial in nature, as I recall. 8 Q As you sit there right now, you don't remember anything? 9 A Yes.' 10 Q Now, once you went and talked to him about Exhibit 1483, 11 , did you talk to him about ;the substance of the report again? 12 A We were trying to get him to tell us whether there was 13 .a final report, and he said it was the final report, 14 Q He said that was the final report? 15' A Yes, yes. " . f 16 Q When did he tell you,that, sir? 1.7 A. I don't remember. 18 Q Do you have any idea^vhen this visit was?; 19 A No, I'm not even sur when ,we received this. 20 Q Now, eventually there was a. publication, was there not, 21 in the American Medical Association Journal? - J ' * * 1" , 22 A ,, Y e s , si r . 23 Q And that's obviously ,,1483, it is not what was published 24 is it? u  if A No, sir. r I ,Q All rights Did you have any input into any change from 2 1483 to what was published? 3 A No, sir, and we were,supposed to have a chance to look 4 at ir. 5' Q All right. So, the fact is you did not'-get a copy of 6 the draft that was published? 7 A No, sir. - 8. Q Prior to its publication? 9 A That's right. 10 Q You did learn that it; was going to he published? 11 A-, Yes, sir. He told us, that it was. 12 Q That it had been accepted? 13 A He told us that he had to make some revisions in the 14 first draft that was submitted to him. It was not accepted 15 without some corrections, whether cosmetic or substantial, I 16 don't know. ^ 17 Q Those are the peer review corrections-- 18 A Yes. 19 Q . -- you talked about the other day? 20 A Yes.' 21 Q So he said there were changes he.had to make? 22' A Yes, sir. ' 23 Q But he didn't send you either what had been submitted 24 V 1 previously to the change or subsequent to the change? 2 A No, sir. 3 Q And then you saw, t h e J I n a l report that was published 4 after it was published? 5 A Yes, sir. - 6 Q Did, he ever tell you ,,why he changed from 1483 to what 7r was published?, 8 A No sir. ` 9 1 Q Other than that there were peer review changes that T 171 " 10 were ordered, but he didn't tell you what they were? ' 11 A No, sir. ', f 12 Q All right, sir.Nov,, in the course of th interview 13 with these men In Charleston, West Virginia or Nitro,' I guess, 14 was that the plant where it was done? 15 A There is another suburb, it w A s n ' t i n Nitro, but it w a s j 16 adjacent town. ' 17 Q All right. They took work histories, did, they not? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q From the individuals?, 20 A Yes, sir. , 21 Q And do .you knowv air,, whether based upon the report 22 that you are looking at, that you looked at, is there any 23 conflict between the work histories on the one hand in some 24 ' 4'l * , f /-* t. circumstances I;and what .the''physicians ,learned on the other hand? 1 A In the records I review, that I reviewed, I don't think there were. 2 3 Q The records make it clear that the physicians did inquir about that, do, they not? 4 A Yes. 5 . 6 Q And as I sit here now, do you recall any that were in conflict, by conflict I'm talking about what the man told the 7 8 physician when the physician talked to him and what the man 9 told the Interviewet when the interviewer talked to him? 10 A No, sir. 11 Q All right, that's wit^h respect to work history? 12 A Yes. 13 Q What about with respect to history of .illnesses such as 14 cancer? 15 A Yea, sir, there were differences. 16 Q There were differences? 17 A Yes, _ ' - 18 Q Now, In what respect ^were there differences? 19 A Sometimes a man would say that he had had a cancer, a 20 skin cancer particularly, and the dermatologist would make no 21 mention of it in his history or in his examination. There are 22 reports of the men having had an operation and he had an 23 operation for cancer and the .worker himself would say no, he ' -S . j 24 didn't have cancer. There are other-- well, let me see* anything i 1 else-- there were men who1said they had cancer and the examining 2 doctor would say he had a benign tumor. 3 Q Kow, one of the things that they ware looking for in 4 this study was skin cancer, wasn't it, that's specifically set 5 out as a separate criteria or item on Table 1, Isn't it? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q Now, does the records, this Exhibit 1468, do those 8 records indicate that there was a history taken by the dermatolc|i 9 for skin cancer? Do any of those people report to the dermatolo|| 10 that they did -have skin cancer? 11 A Yes. 12 Q So obviously the .dermatologist, he did ask him-- 13 MU. CARR: I'll object, counsel, I'm trying to make an 14 objection and you are going ahead with your leading question 15 anyway, and you know that's the objection I'm making. 16 THE COURT: Objection is sustained. Please rephrase 17 the question. 18 Q Do the records indicate, sir, that that was something 19 that was asked by the dermatologist? 20 A - Sometimes. 21 Q So .sometimes there is a statement, what do you mean 22 sometimes ? J 1 '`*.w '.V l r, ' t, *]\\ < ' ' ]a.J- 23 MR. CARR: Objection, your Honor. 24 A Some pKy3iclan's, would list -that they had asked about skij tr i ij 1 cancer and others would, whether they asked the question or 2 not, you can't tell, but all you get Is the notation of what he 3 thought from his Interview was pertinent and should be listed 4 on the examination form. 5 Q All right* So in some of these-- - 6 MR. CARR: Objection ,to the leading form of the question 7 your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Objection sustained. 9 Q Sir, there isn't any ,,queotion, is there, in your mind-- 10 MRt CARR: Thaf's leading also, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Objection lo sustained* It is leading* 12 Q Was skin cancer one of the things they were looking for? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q Do any of those records demonstrate that skin cancer was 15 Inquired about? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q Is there any reason in reviewing those records to bellev 18 that In a particular case a physician didn't ask? 19 A No, sir. 20 Q Are there instances in those records where there is nou 21 report one w a y ror the other whether there was skin cancer7 * / t ' * 22 A Yes. \ / / . 23 Q And in the record of ],the physician, of the dermatologist 24 exam-- " : :i - :i 1 MR# CARR : Ob jaction, leading form of the question, 2 your Honor# 3 THE COURT: Can you rephrase It? 4 _Q I'd like to direct your attention, sir, to that portion 5 of these records that the dermatologist filled out. Would there 6 be occasions when it would be reported there and not in the 7 history that was taken in the interview? 8 A I don't recall# 9 MR# HEIHEMAN: Your Honor, I don't want to encroach on. 10 the Jury's time# I see it's after four o'clock#. 11 TH COURT: It is# Okay,, ladies and gentlemen, we will ^i "- 12 recess for the day, we will start again tomorrow morning at 13 nine o'clock* I would remind you as I do on any of these 14 overnight breaks that you are not to read, listen to, or watch 15 anything about this c a s e i n p a r t i c u l a r o r subject*matter in c 16 general in any of the media# Thank you for your attention and 41 v. * 17 cooperation# Court Is adjourned# Gentlemen, could I see you 18 in chambers, please? 19 (At this time Court adjourned for the day, and 20 ' the, ^following proceedings, were held in chambers.) 21 TH COURT: Before'tie start on^ this offer of proof, 22 I would like t know when you found,those documents 916 through^ *- - 4 '),/ , j,>#` xm ^r v- . rr v -19, and when they were produced. MR. MASSIF:f We; found them, and I should say I got them 1 from my legal assistant the night before we produced them to 2 Rex, end I don't remember, was It last Friday I produced them 3 to you? I told you about them Thursday, and we gave them to 4 you that day, the day I told you about thorn, you got them, and 5 X can't remember, but It was before the break, Judge, Friday, . 6 Saturday, and Sunday break, we were off Friday, It was before 7 the break, 8 MR, CARR: For this past weekend, 9 MR. MASSIF: And X told Rex when I got them, X told him 10 what I had found, that ha would get them that day, and I told 11 him the substance of what It was and that we might use them late; 12 the following week. 13 MR, CARR: I might break,.In there, It was my understand!) 14 that X was going to have the opportunity to use them first befori 15 you used them* 16 MR, MASSIF: X asked him to tell me on Monday If he was 17 planning to use them. 18 MR. CARR: And you went ahead and used them, 19 MR, MASSIF: I didn't hear anything from him and I guess 20 X should have asked again, but I didn't hear anything from Rex 21 about wanting to usc. them. *, ' r i. ` *> > -^ ^ ' 22 MR. CARR: I Wanted to use them, there was no point In 23 me objecting to It, I didn't want to make It seem as If there 24 was something I wanted to keep out of the evidence. 81 sf.' 1 - THE^COURT: `'Since they obviously have-some, relationship 2 ' to \the questions at handy why weren't /they produced before? 3 ; MR* MASSIF:, judge they,were in a financial person's-- 4 '' ,,Keating's and" another financial parson's file and some of them 5 - :were- there 'because they pertained to payments to Sueklnd which 6 1 h a d n o t been retained i n . t h e tmedical department's files, they w^re 7 ` not In.Roush's o r .DMH's/files, so they .were^not, uncovered" in ., % flcarch of lifce toxicity filca or thlngs having to do with. dloxlx| 9 io,,; because they were kept I n <a financial file h e v i n g t o d o with. i r' .> -' '' 'r ,t ^ , " ' '' " 1, ' -' *r , R* A. - `F * . ,, * billings/with the correspondence somaVof the correspondence, i U ` and that,was why t h e y w e r e n ' t kicked out. Another.one, some' of 12 , them were-earlier drafts or other drafts of things, we had produced, 13 -to M r . C a r r , but they had modifications on them. ,, tr 1 "T /t ~ T> MR, C A R R : ^ N o t h e documentg were financial :documents./ 14 * "V . , ' -i . ^ '' .; 15 - MR* NASSIF: ' Thavones that you-are talking abo_ut there, '16 primarily those statements, Judge, were found in a financial 17 person-s ;file, -they ver n o t ,,found in; Dr. Roush's'or. anybody 18 in DHEB'.s' files. Those documents that you were, referring to thejre. 19 One exception was that a union-committee memo which was-not 20 21 122 23 generated until June the, 14th 185 which .was during the hiatus, / r& 'i\ ',w, i. ' V"i oh discovery, and. quite/frankly I d i d , not see it.until after - y - ' + V .-' v e a t a r t a d back up. T h e t h i n g that that do cument had attached _;+V* ^ '? _Z :L ' rto it that I h a d .never,'; flQen'-b;efore; and::we had.never found before 1 24' V, was the Dr, Roush memo from Suskind, .and I don't know why. that . - - --t- t ,'r ' " ; : v.> t _ -- -. - . , , J " ' .. , .* . . jv FO RM IL ,2 4 B B A YO N N E, N .j. 0700 2 1 didn't com up In our search of the plant files, but it was not 2 In DMEH'a files, but v did not have It prior o obtaining the 3 union committee materials, which wa went back and checked after 4 Hr. Carr Identified that he had sent the materials.to the union v 5 and 1 Inquired at that pointy did we send the union anything, ant 6 that document came up as a part of that inquiry, and 1 received 7 it from the same person who delivered the other documents to 8 me and produced it th day that 1 got it, or the.next day if 9 got It that night, I can't recall. 10 THE. COURT; So basically, when was that? These were 11 basically produced around July 18th? 12 .HR. CARRi July 18th ,,la when they were produced. 13 MR. MASSIF: Judge, that would have been a Thursday. 14 MR. CARR: Last Friday, 15 ' MR. MASSIF: Friday morning. .t_ i 16 ' THE COURT: They were produced the 18th or the 19th? 17 MR. CARR: I*m sorry,, we were off on the 19th. 18 MR. MASSIF: So they were produced on Thursday. 19 ' 20 MR. CARR: 1 don't know, you delivered them to the offie *1 ' .*' j * ' "I A .t . Jf ! ' MR. MASSIF: Yeah* 21 . MR. CARR: So they were on the 19th. 22 j '' ' " ir ' ; -1 ' Y\ ,r (^S' *, * ^ * ,, ' THE COURT: So %re you telling`"me that the finance L `23 department or financial officers, or however you have It organis 24 have not been part of-prior notice to search for documents? 1 MR. MASSIF: That was the financial guy at the plant, 2 that Is where we had a situation where that had not been search 3 The' financial structure out at the general offices had been 4 Inquired of.but that was a man at the plant who had retained 5 those because the plant was the one responsible for making the 6 payments, and so w e -- "it was tracked that way when we inquired 7 of the general offices, they said that the plant was the one 8 that was making the billing arrangements, and that's where It 9 .was picked'up. 4 '^ 10 THE COURT: Have you^checked, other records Of the plant 11 to make, like with prior requests? 12 MR. MASSIF: Yeo> sir, we sent a group of people, the 13 prior request, the prior submissions followed sending down to 14 the plant a number of people from Coburn, Croft,Jand Putsell'sj IS law firm to go through files and interview.people for where 16 their files would be. T h & t h a o been done and that submission 17 has previously been made to Mr. Carr. 18 THE COURT: Okay. t . v`V' ` 19 MR. CARR: j Judge,' for the Plaintiff's comment, I feel 20 that the failure to produce these before was a good faith 21 failure and 1 1can-unders tand^ the deficiency, the deficit at 22 this time. I would have objected to it if I thought that It ''1 ^c `} 3" ..+ 23 s `T ' ,,v * 1* was laying back on it, and Z have no reason to doubt what 24 Mr. Nasslf says is correct. 84 . S l, 1 THE .COURTr / Fine/; VYouJwanted to make an offer of proof 2-r; I.believe?1 ' 3 / MR, HEXNEMAK Yes, sir,.- ':- 4 ,v; ' ^ THE COURT: H o v d o yu wish to' make it? - 5'- / j MR, HEINEMANr, I'll make .it on the record1-myself * 6J 7 1' ^, ;-^ " THE COURT: J , ji" .r` ' r ^ t " ''- - f I Fine-, _ ' . C` V * .- r ^ ^ 'F , F 1 -l ' ' .t l J ' * <*r .%' * " * . ^ t * -* , / 'C ,! ' 1 . J " i- r MRl'/HBINEMAN:.' Judge, we .believe the evidence would be 8 r that if Doctor-- flrct of all, if the Cofurt were, to admit .9 Plaintiff *s y o r , excuae.taa, Defendant'a.Exhib it 913, which is' .10 the portion of the computer record, computer print-out which.we .11 , ;had.marked end which the Court excluded, It would, demonstrate 12 and as would .any testimony by Dr, Roush about Defendant's Exhibit 13. , 913, w h i c h :la necessarily barred by.virtue of the fact that it' %i'l\ r- .; v " ' ''' ' r'.;" 'r * . ' ,, ' 14 la.not in evidence, it would establish that If one does' combine 15/ the two cohorts in the -Zack/Suskind and Zaek/Gaffey studies , 16 r that the expected numbers or rates1of ..the causes of death and 17 18 V 19 /the total-.cancers and the .specific types /of cancers enumerated ", .' .~'r\- ir ..ij y^n r .;y---.1 - '/ 4 .-ir . , T. ... by M r Carr 'In,hia' exhibits would behigher-, than Mr Carr r .. ' J J v.i V.lv* calculated them to be because of the fact that .th computer A. -' . t'r' !</. K ;?,-\ ,;v. -- 20 , .program evldencedVb^. Def endant'8-Exhibit 913. includes v.arlatlone 21 for age and date of dsath and for a larger number of 'people/to 22 . lf.(rr,/- `J- J;} .$>H\v .V'.i:-fi'v f v1; v. . . . * . - n; . be included In th study! One muet' therefore recalculate the / 23 expected number,of cancers based upon the total.of .the t w o _ 24' cohorts combined ' `r - k ./ ; BAYONNE N.J. 'r"''/''h 85 % i In addition, t h l / Z a e k / S u s k i d t u d y 9 bated upon a ' 2 standard mortality ratio; and the; Zak/Gaffe Study is based v- ^ 3 upon; a proportional mortality ratio, and that factor,Is also 4 reflected.and Included-into Defendant's E x h i b i t -913;which is : 5. another factor that isrnot included-- 6 . MR. CAKRr Your Honor, 1 thought,counsel was making an . -, ' - 4J " r ' * -' ' t r ' S\ t 4 ,, 'r nt ^ t *' i - - 4 ' C* K * ~ f" . * \ J` * T hr J 7 offer of proof . " Now, I don't'hear this as an offar/of proof, -8 I know he cannot "testify to that, and an offer of.proof has -9 got to be that some w i t n e s s , t h a t this witness he hac here, - '^_ I ' ,, t m ,` 4 L t' ' 1 L 1' % " , -r 10 Dr* Roush, can testify, to these facts,v and this.Doctor has 11 .already said that he can* ty rthat a l l 1he did was push, a button * 12 X don't k n o w why we're .taking this tim, unless Heineman la .k 13 the witness*. 1 " - r. ,r '-r 14 . MR. HEINEMAN: W e l l , > l r , I'm suggesting that that Is 15 whet Dr. Roush would' testify ,-to,'and that is what is demonstrate ^ ,: \ - . ,L 1 .. *v-.- v , f s ., L './/'' /\ -16 by. Defendant's Exhibit 913' that is being omitted from evidence.. ' 17 18 19 r 20 21 '22 .2 3 24 And it is further demonstrated by'Dfendantfs Exhibit 913 and , , * -T. , :`.r` A,V* % ; \, 1. ' ' . ,' V ' 'i ^ - ,, \ f`, ; 1 -. . .? r- - f l '-j - - -, -- - - :. would be further demonstrated by the testimony' of Dr. .Roush, / '_ ^ Vi i, " .. ` // - .that when thse yariouofactora that I have just*described are , - .' - .. t * 1 . i , - v - . r : f ` / tr4 ->y,~ . .. : - i- v.' ' \ :- .. taken Into consideration.`and the total number of th e ,two groups r ~r' ". ' * >, ' <.:?. -,>*'.,r' ' . \ " f,/J J UJ `> . *' ` is/ combined, the ^expected, number'of- deaths is raised end the age,and d a t e o f death are taken into consideration, then there is no statistical signif icance, to any. Increased.^ number of cancer reported in tho combined tudie, except, for the bladder cancer FO R M . IL 24 B B A Y O N N E, N .J . ' 0 7 0 0 2 0 "i . ,, K. > - / L ,, ` S' 86 1 and lung cancers Those are the only.two as to which there 2 would be statistically,significant numbers of cancers reported ', r '` i H I- .- " * , t' The genito-urinary cancers would not be,, significant except to ,4 the extent, that ,it reflects the bladder cancer The lymph 5 cancers.would not ,be significant statistically. T h e other .. 6 : ,T cancers would not be significant statistically and the total V "` \ : 'r .-4' t `. *. ' V ; k' !> * : ,'r' ^ ' ;i'` 'v `` i . A'- cancers would not be significant statistically/ , j 8 V - , j.In. addition to 'thrat,-'trt h e h e a r t*d i_'s o r d,e r s /%would n.ot be,, . ;;9 algnifleant statistically, nd, that is what Is expressly set out on /Defendant's Exhibit 913^ and would, be testified .to by 10 ' 11 D?; Roush. - , . f`; * . ;1/ ^ s* ' 12 V' /THE COURT: ^ Mr ' Carr? ^ -:/' i , ^ / y . '.''J 1 y ' : 1. ; 'V ,kJ / 13 HR. CARR? Your Honor, he hasn't laid any. foundation for FO R M - IL 12 4 B 14 the exhibit ' He has said bow this, witness would interpret this \k _ .. P J ", F i *F JS exhibit/ He hasn't laid a foundation lor the a d m i s e i o n o f this '. J ^J / , r'-.^ ' u' .' *< ^ \ `' :i6 exhibit into evidenceVthere is nothing that's: stated as to show '- r ' i^~r ~~\j (r '/ rfta c ' ' f i,> r 1 , ;/ 7 that 'this witness /knows irWat was fed into the computer 9 what B A Y O N N E. ;J . 0 7 0 0 2 18 information was 'put in s/nothing to show that this witness knows V\ // . . s~> ir' " - r / - . . . y - . 19 .which was adjusted for age and^which.wsn/t adjusted for age and 20 how.that was taken i n t o a e c o u n t . w h o a c p r o g r a m it was; who desig aed ; li the program. Mr. Helheman has aald nothing further at this ' 22 : .23 < i- 24 point h y way of offer of proof, than what he said at the time the Court ruled on It, and my. objection Is,exactly the same, inadequate foundation /laid ;or the;' admission of this exhibit' 1i1 87 'along with the fact, that the/witness that he proposes to 'I'.- testify/to it has already admitted that his knowledge Is second' 3 'hand and not, first-hand. L . ' 4.', 5. : MR. \HEt NEMAN:' Y o u r H o n o r , I don't recall, were the i /'V / v :K^ ; . V " statements that I made when I requested this meeting*with respe 11, i_ 6 to what Dr. -Roush found out on the record or not? ' . - 'THE COURT J Yesi they were; '' T- 8, MR. HEINEMAN: Okay* ,all.right, 1 would like to include i >; 9 .that; in my offer,,of proof -as well. ,r \ */j /' r .10 J THE COURT: I 1!!,.include .the, argument *that both of\you 11\ .made .earlier. this afternoon.' .. -; /-/ ' 12 MR. HEINEMAN: As well as the'testimony elicited from ^ .j 13 . Dr. Roush in Court about-1- . 14 : .THE COURT: Oh, bf course, both direct and cross 1 > FORM I L , ! < B , 15 / i6" examination''., f? ]' f- /- .y . -/ *-^*l : y *; i * * 1 , a '.i^ - ft .' .- 'K >. . . . >, `MR.' HEINEMAN: --about this document, Defendant's Exhlbl 17 ' - 18' 913. ,v K'"1' 5; . ja a - i -, - , '* ... - 1'. <itr V--* .... . , *K A' - THE .COURT: - That's why I .had It' done, ^l - - . . sure. Okay, I B A Y O N N E. N .J . 0 7 0 0 1 . 1? . .'.20 .think my;,ruling; was correct;on -a/,number of grounds. I would r* ,7 j* ^ * j l . - j - r* 1 ' kt J * - ' -' k` reaffirm my/, ruling after.;, the offer of proof. . 21 '. ." (At this time,-.the proceedings held in' 22' 1 23 ' ' ^'/chambers was a d j o u r n e d . ) i ' F>i 24* I STATE OF ILLINOIS ) ) SS. 2 COUNTY OF ST. CLAIR ) 3 4 5 6 7 I, Patricia A. Gandy, CSR, R P R , Official Court Reporter S in and for the Twentieth Judicial Circuit, and the Official' 9 Court Reporter who transcribed the above-styled cause had on 10 July 23, 1985, do hereby.certify that the foregoing transcript 11 of proceedings is a true, correct and complete transcript of 12 the proceedings had on said date. 13 DATED -this 28th day qf July, 19 85. 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 1 STATE OF ILLINOIS ) ) SS. 2 COUNTY OF ST. CLAIR ) 3 4 5 6 7 Iv RICHARD P. GOLDENHERSH, Circuit Judge in and for 8 the Twentieth Judicial Circuit, hereby certify that the above ie 9 a true and correct transcript of the proceedings had in the 10 case captionedt FRANCES E. KEMNER, et al*, v. MONSANTO COMPANYf 11 Cause No* 80-L-970, heard ot_Iuly 23, 1985. 12 DATED this J j / < .day of July, 1985. 13 14 IS 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24