Document v6mzM7jNYVgjRvV0qDGLbZXb8

file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3851 1 CASE NUMBER: BC 367800 2 CASE NAME: WILLIAM MOLINA AND ANGELINA MOLINA 3 VS. 4 SHELL OIL COMPANY, ET AL. 5 LOS ANGELES, CA MONDAY, OCTOBER 27, 2008 6 DEPT. NO. 323-CCW HON. CAROLYN B. KUHL, JUDGE 7 REPORTER: VIRGINIA R. ISHIDA, CSR 3784 8 TIME: 9:04 A.M. 9 APPEARANCES: (AS NOTED ON TITLE PAGE.) 10 11 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE 12 HAD IN OPEN COURT OUT OF THE 13 PRESENCE OF THE JURORS:) 14 15 THE COURT: GOOD MORNING. COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. JURORS 16 AND ALTERNATES ARE NOT. 17 YOU HAVE A QUESTION? 18 MR. RIFF: I HAVE LODGED WITH THE COURT A PROPOSED file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (1 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 COLLECTION OF POWER POINT SLIDES AS EXHIBIT 132, AND 20 APPARENTLY WE NEED TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THAT. 21 THE COURT: SURE. 22 MR. WAGNON: I HAVE AN OBJECTION TO THESE. AND IT'S 23 ACTUALLY EASIER TO SAY WHICH PAGES I DO NOT HAVE AN OBJECTION 24 TO. 25 I DO NOT HAVE AN OBJECTION TO PAGE 1 AND PAGE 2, 26 AND THERE'S ANOTHER ONE BURIED DEEP WITHIN THAT ALSO HAS A 27 DIAGRAM. IT IS THE PAGE LABELED "STRUCTURE OF THE LYMPH 28 NODE." file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (2 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3852 1 ALL THE REST ARE LENGTHY COMPILATIONS OF TEXTUAL 2 INFORMATION. AND ESSENTIALLY WHAT MR. RIFF IS TRYING TO DO IS 3 SCRIPT UP HIS EXPERT'S TESTIMONY AND PUT A SUBSTANTIAL PORTION 4 OF IT UP IN FRONT OF THE JURY IN A WRITTEN FORM RATHER THAN 5 JUST RELYING UPON THE WITNESS' TESTIMONY FROM THE STAND. I 6 THINK THAT'S IMPROPER. 7 IT'S OBVIOUSLY DONE TO TRY AND REINFORCE THE KEY 8 STATEMENTS THAT THE WITNESS MAKES BY PUTTING THEM UP SO THAT 9 THE JURY SEES THEM IN A MORE DURABLE MANNER THAN HEARING THEM 10 MADE BY THE WITNESS. IT MAY BE COMMENDABLE, PERHAPS, AS A 11 MATTER OF TRIAL TACTICS, BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S CORRECT WITHIN 12 THE LAW OF EVIDENCE IN TERMS OF HOW WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE 13 PRESENTING WITNESSES AND THEIR TESTIMONY. 14 THIS IS FAR DIFFERENT THAN JUST WRITING DOWN A 15 FEW WORDS ON A PAD OF PAPER, WHICH I DO NOT TAKE ISSUE WITH. 16 BECAUSE OF THE EXTENSIVE NATURE OF WHAT'S IN THIS, HE'S 17 ESSENTIALLY INVITING THE JURORS TO COPY ALL OF THIS DOWN 18 DIRECTLY INTO THEIR NOTES. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (3 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 I THINK THAT'S AN IMPROPER WAY. IT'S HIGHLY 20 PREJUDICIAL. I OBJECT TO IT UNDER 352. 21 THE COURT: HOW WERE YOU GOING TO USE THIS? 22 MR. RIFF: FIRST OF ALL, IT WOULD NOT BE OFFERED AS 23 A -- IN THE SENSE THAT IT WOULD GO INTO EVIDENCE AND GO TO THE 24 JURY. THIS WAS GOING TO BE USED AS A -- TO FACILITATE THE 25 WITNESS' TESTIMONY AND OPINIONS. 26 I DON'T KNOW HOW TO SAY IT BETTER THAN THAT. 27 THE COURT: WELL, OKAY. YOU CAN'T PUT IT UP AHEAD OF 28 TIME AND WALK HIM THROUGH IT. THAT'S PLAIN. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (4 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3853 1 LET'S LOOK AT PAGE 3. 2 YOU CAN'T PROMPT THE WITNESS BY GIVING HIM THIS 3 NICE LITTLE OUTLINE OF WHAT HE'S SUPPOSED TO SAY. 4 MR. RIFF: I UNDERSTAND THAT. 5 THE COURT: THAT'S WHY I ASKED YOU, HOW ARE YOU GOING 6 TO USE IT? 7 MR. RIFF: AND I CAN LAY A FOUNDATION, FOR EXAMPLE, FOR 8 NUMBER 3: HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF SIR BRADFORD HILL, AND HAVE 9 YOU USED HIS METHOD AND WHAT IS IT? WE HEARD A LITTLE BIT 10 ABOUT THAT AND WHAT ARE THE VARIOUS CRITERIA. DO YOU HAVE A 11 SLIDE THAT WOULD HELP REMIND US WHAT THAT IS? AND THEN I 12 WOULD SHOW 3. 13 I DON'T THINK IT'S VERY DIFFERENT FROM, FRANKLY, 14 WHAT WE SAW FROM DR. WEISENBURGER. I THINK HE HAS THE SAME 15 SLIDE, IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN. 16 MR. WAGNON: IT WASN'T A SLIDE. I WROTE DOWN THE 17 ONE-WORD NAMES OF EACH OF THE ELEMENTS, WHICH IS DIFFERENT, 18 DIFFERENT THAN WRITING IT ALL UP IN GREAT DETAIL LIKE THIS AS file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (5 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 HE'S DONE. 20 MR. RIFF: BY THE WAY, I'M NOT GOING TO INVITE THE 21 JURY -22 I'M CERTAINLY NOT INVITING THE JURY TO WRITE 23 DOWN EVERYTHING IN THIS POWER POINT. 24 THE COURT: WELL, THEY MAY OR MAY NOT. 25 MR. RIFF: CORRECT. 26 THE COURT: LET'S TAKE THESE ONE AT A TIME. 27 1 AND 2 I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH. 28 3, HE HAS TO TESTIFY FIRST, AND THEN IF YOU WANT file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (6 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3854 1 TO PUT IT UP AS A SUMMARY, AS THOUGH YOU WERE WRITING IT OUT, 2 THAT'S ALL RIGHT WITH ME. BUT IT HAS TO SUMMARIZE WHAT HE'S 3 ALREADY SAID. 4 MR. RIFF: UNDERSTOOD. 5 THE COURT: WHAT'S PAGE 4? 6 MR. RIFF: PAGE 4 IS -7 PAGE 4 AND PAGE 5 GO TOGETHER. THEY ARE 8 ILLUSTRATIVE OF THE POINT THAT THE RESULTS IN THE PLIOFILM 9 COHORT FOR BENZENE VARIED BETWEEN A.M.L. AND N.H.L. THOSE GO 10 TO THE SO-CALLED "GIST" OF THE ARTICLE. 11 AND, YOUR HONOR, THIS MORNING I ACTUALLY WAS 12 REVIEWING OUR TRANSCRIPT IN THIS CASE, AND THE COURT MAY 13 REMEMBER THAT I RAISED AS A GROUND RULE QUESTION ON OCTOBER 14 2ND JUST WHAT A WITNESS CAN DO ON DIRECT WITH RESPECT TO THIS 15 KIND OF THING. AND, IN FACT, USED THE EXAMPLE OF AN 16 EPIDEMIOLOGIST AND WE TALKED ABOUT IT. 17 I THINK WE HAD AGREEMENT THAT THE EXPERT COULD 18 STATE THE KEY DATA POINTS IN THE, QUOTE, "GIST," END QUOTE, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (7 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 BUT NOT OTHERWISE REPUBLISH A BUNCH OF HEARSAY FROM THE STUDY. 20 SO THAT'S WHAT TABLES 3 AND 4 TEND TO DO. 21 I'M HAPPY TO SHOW YOU THAT DISCUSSION WE HAD ON 22 THAT DAY. 23 THE COURT: ON THESE TWO, MR. WAGNON, WHAT IS YOUR 24 PROBLEM? THAT AGAIN IT'S JUST SORT OF PUTTING TOO MUCH IN -25 WELL, IS IT HEARSAY OR IS IT THAT IT'S AN UNFAIR 26 PRESENTATION METHODOLOGY? 27 MR. WAGNON: THE LATTER. 28 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (8 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3855 1 WHAT I'M GOING TO DO WITH THESE IS I'M GOING TO 2 TAKE THEM AS THEY COME. I WANT THIS WITNESS TO TESTIFY. I 3 WANT TO HEAR HIS TESTIMONY. AND THEN BASED ON THAT TESTIMONY, 4 YOU CAN TELL ME WHAT PAGE YOU WANT TO DISPLAY FOR THE JURY AS 5 A SUBSTITUTE FOR WRITING IT DOWN, AND I'LL TAKE THEM ONE AT A 6 TIME. 7 MR. RIFF: THAT'S FINE. I'M HAPPY TO PROCEED THAT WAY. 8 THE COURT: I KNOW YOU'D RATHER HAVE IT ALL OUT -9 MR. WAGNON: I WOULD. 10 THE COURT: -- BUT I DO THINK SOME OF IT IS OKAY. BUT 11 I'M NOT GOING TO ALLOW IT TO BE USED AS A PROMPT FOR THE 12 WITNESS. 13 MR. RIFF: THANK YOU. 14 WITH THAT, WE'RE READY. 15 MR. WAGNON: AND WE'RE READY. 16 MR. RIFF: WE HAVE LODGED A PROPOSED VERDICT FORM FOR 17 YOU TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE WHILE THIS IS HAPPENING, IF YOU 18 WISH. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (9 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. 20 21 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS 22 WERE HAD IN OPEN COURT IN THE 23 PRESENCE OF THE JURORS:) 24 25 THE COURT: ALL JURORS AND ALTERNATES ARE PRESENT. 26 GOOD MORNING. GLAD TO SEE YOU ALL. HOPE YOU ALL HAD A GOOD 27 WEEKEND. 28 COUNSEL ARE ALSO PRESENT. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (10 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3856 1 I BELIEVE DEFENSE HAS A WITNESS THIS MORNING? 2 MR. RIFF: YES, YOUR HONOR. WE CALL AS OUR LAST 3 WITNESS, JOHN WHYSNER. 4 5 JOHN WHYSNER, 6 CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE DEFENSE, WAS SWORN BY THE CLERK AND 7 TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: 8 THE CLERK: WILL YOU PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME AND SPELL 9 IT FOR THE RECORD. 10 THE WITNESS: JOHN WHYSNER; J-O-H-N, W-H-Y-S-N-E-R. 11 12 DIRECT EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. RIFF: 14 Q WHAT IS THE NATURE OF YOUR PROFESSION? 15 A I'M A PHYSICIAN, A SCIENTIST AND I'M A 16 TOXICOLOGIST. 17 Q ARE YOU A LICENSED PHYSICIAN? 18 A YES. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (11 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 Q WHERE ARE YOU LICENSED TO PRACTICE MEDICINE? 20 A IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, WASHINGTON, D.C. 21 Q DO YOU RESIDE IN THAT AREA? 22 A NO. I RESIDE IN NEW YORK IN A TOWN CALLED 23 "SLEEPY HOLLOW." 24 Q YOU SAY YOU'RE A PHYSICIAN. DID YOU SAY YOU ARE 25 A SCIENTIST? 26 A YES. 27 Q WHAT KIND OF SCIENTIST ARE YOU, SIR? 28 A WELL, I'M -- file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (12 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3857 1 I DID RESEARCH IN TOXICOLOGY. THAT WAS MY 2 PRIMARY. ALTHOUGH, I'VE ALSO DONE CLINICAL TRIALS IN TERMS OF 3 DEVELOPING A COUPLE OF NEW PHARMACEUTICALS, AND I'VE DONE 4 OTHER KINDS OF RESEARCH. I'VE DONE STEROID HORMONE RESEARCH. 5 Q DR. WHYSNER, WHAT IS TOXICOLOGY? 6 A TOXICOLOGY IS THE STUDY OF WHAT KINDS OF HEALTH 7 EFFECTS, CHEMICALS OR OTHER AGENTS, CAN HAVE ON EITHER HUMANS, 8 OR WE ALSO USE EXPERIMENTAL ANIMALS AND ALSO CERTAIN TEST TUBE 9 SYSTEMS. 10 Q NOW, IN THE COURSE OF YOUR TESTIMONY TODAY, 11 THERE ARE SOME TOPICS I WANT TO DISCUSS WITH YOU, AND AMONG 12 THEM ARE THESE: 13 I WANT TO DISCUSS WHAT THE WORLD PEER-REVIEWED 14 EPIDEMIOLOGICAL LITERATURE TELLS US ABOUT WHETHER BENZENE ON 15 THE ONE HAND AND WHETHER, QUOTE, "SOLVENTS" ON THE OTHER HAND, 16 ARE CAPABLE OF CAUSING NON-HODGKIN'S LYMPHOMA IN HUMANS. 17 DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE TOPIC? 18 A YES. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (13 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 Q AND IS THAT A TOPIC THAT I'VE ASKED TO YOU 20 CONSIDER IN THIS CASE? 21 A YES. 22 Q WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT YOUR TRAINING AND 23 EXPERIENCE IN A FEW MOMENTS, BUT JUST TO GET STARTED, IS THAT 24 A TOPIC ON WHICH YOU BELIEVE YOU HAVE TRAINING AND EXPERTISE? 25 A YES. 26 Q THEN I'M GOING TO WANT TO TALK WITH YOU ABOUT 27 THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE DISEASE NON-HODGKIN'S LYMPHOMA ON 28 THE ONE HAND, AND A.M.L., ACUTE MYELOGENOUS LEUKEMIA, ON THE file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (14 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3858 1 OTHER HAND WITH RESPECT TO THE TOXICOLOGY OF BENZENE. 2 DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I JUST SAID? 3 A YES. 4 Q IS THAT SOMETHING YOU BELIEVE YOUR TRAINING, 5 YOUR EDUCATION AND YOUR EXPERIENCE MAKES YOU AN EXPERT IN? 6 A YES. 7 Q AND THEN EVENTUALLY YOU AND I ARE GOING TO TALK 8 ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT, IN YOUR OPINION, TO A REASONABLE DEGREE 9 OF MEDICAL AND SCIENTIFIC PROBABILITY, WHETHER MR. MOLINA'S 10 EXPOSURE TO THE REFINED PETROLEUM HYDROCARBONS AT FIRESTONE 11 WAS A CAUSE IN ANY WAY OF HIS NON-HODGKIN'S LYMPHOMA. 12 DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I JUST SAID? 13 A YES. 14 Q AND IS IT YOUR VIEW THAT ON ACCOUNT OF YOUR 15 TRAINING, YOUR EXPERIENCE AND YOUR EDUCATION YOU ARE AN EXPERT 16 ON THAT POINT? 17 A YES. 18 Q SO I WANT TO SPEND A FEW MINUTES WITH YOU, MAYBE file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (15 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 MORE THAN JUST A FEW, EXPLORING WHAT YOU HAVE DONE IN YOUR 20 LIFE PROFESSIONALLY SO THIS JURY HAS A BASIS TO EVALUATE YOUR 21 OPINIONS. 22 SOUND OKAY WITH YOU? 23 A YES. 24 Q LET'S START AT THE BEGINNING. 25 WHERE DID YOU GROW UP? 26 A I GREW UP MOSTLY IN LOS ANGELES. 27 Q WHERE DID YOU GO TO HIGH SCHOOL? 28 A L.A. HIGH. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (16 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3859 1 Q WHERE DID YOU GO TO COLLEGE? 2 A I WENT TO JOHNS HOPKINS, BUT I RETURNED EVERY 3 SUMMER AND I DID RESEARCH AT USC MEDICAL SCHOOL DURING THE 4 SUMMERS, AND THEN I WENT TO MEDICAL SCHOOL AT USC. 5 Q DID YOU OBTAIN AN UNDERGRADUATE DEGREE FROM 6 JOHNS HOPKINS? 7 A NO. I WAS ADMITTED TO MEDICAL SCHOOL WITHOUT A 8 BACHELOR'S DEGREE. 9 Q SO YOU WENT TO MEDICAL SCHOOL AT USC. 10 WHAT YEARS ARE WE TALKING ABOUT? 11 A 1964 TO 1970. 12 Q DID THAT PROGRAM -- '64 TO '70, THAT'S SIX 13 YEARS? 14 A CORRECT. 15 Q YOU WERE ON THE SIX-YEAR PLAN? 16 A YES. 17 Q CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY? 18 A AFTER I WAS ADMITTED TO MEDICAL SCHOOL, I file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (17 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 APPLIED FOR A GRANT FOR AN M.D./PH.D PROGRAM, AND SO I SPENT 20 THE SIX YEARS GETTING MY M.D. AND MY PH.D. 21 Q AND IN WHAT DID YOU GET YOUR PH.D? 22 A MY PH.D WAS IN BIOCHEMISTRY. 23 Q IN A SENTENCE OR TWO CAN YOU TELL US WHAT 24 BIOCHEMISTRY IS, PLEASE. 25 A BIOCHEMISTRY IS STUDYING THE UNDERLYING 26 MOLECULAR THINGS THAT HAPPEN OR MECHANISMS. IN THIS CASE I 27 WAS LOOKING AT STEROID HORMONE PRODUCTION BY THE ADRENAL 28 GLAND. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (18 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3860 1 Q SO 1970 ROLLS AROUND AND YOU HAVE AN MD DEGREE 2 AND A PH.D. FROM USC, TRUE? 3 A THAT'S RIGHT. 4 Q WHAT HAPPENED NEXT WITH RESPECT TO YOUR CAREER? 5 A I WAS A -- DID A FIRST YEAR OF PEDIATRIC 6 RESIDENCY AT BRONX MUNICIPAL HOSPITAL. JACOBY HOSPITAL IT'S 7 ALSO KNOWN AS. 8 Q OBVIOUSLY IN NEW YORK? 9 A YES, IN THE BRONX. 10 Q AND THEN WHAT? 11 A THEN I WAS -- I WENT INTO THE U.S. PUBLIC HEALTH 12 SERVICE, AND I WAS AT THE NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH, THE 13 PART THAT'S CALLED THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF CHILD HEALTH AND 14 HUMAN DEVELOPMENT. 15 Q TELL US WHAT THE PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE IS. 16 A THE PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE IS ONE OF THE 17 OLDEST -- IT'S ACTUALLY A MILITARY BRANCH, AND IT WAS -- HAS 18 BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR STUDYING DISEASE IN THE POPULATION AND file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (19 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 PROVIDING PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICES IN THE POPULATION. THE 20 SURGEON GENERAL IS THE HEAD OF THE PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE. 21 Q SO YOU WENT INTO THE PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE WHICH 22 WAS A FORM OF MILITARY SERVICE? 23 A YES. 24 AND WHILE YOU WERE THERE -- I'M NOT CLEAR ON 25 THIS -- DID YOU THEN GO TO THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF HEALTH? 26 A NO. IT'S PART OF THE -27 THE U.S. PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE ACTUALLY STAFFS A 28 LARGE PORTION OF THE N.I.H. -- CENTER FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (20 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3861 1 OTHER -- IT ALSO PROVIDES OTHER SERVICES. 2 Q NOT TO PUT TOO FINE A POINT ON IT, I JUST WANT 3 TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THESE ORGANIZATIONS ARE. 4 WHEN YOU LEFT PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE, WHAT IS OR 5 ARE THE NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH OR SOMETIMES CALLED 6 N.I.H? 7 A THE NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH ARE PART OF 8 THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES. SO THERE ARE 9 NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF MENTAL HEALTH. THERE IS NATIONAL 10 INSTITUTE OF CHILD HEALTH AND HUMAN DEVELOPMENT, NATIONAL 11 CANCER INSTITUTE. 12 AND I WAS AT THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF CHILD 13 HEALTH AND HUMAN DEVELOPMENT, BUT I WAS ACTUALLY DOING CANCER 14 RESEARCH. WE WERE WORKING ON A FORM OF CHILDHOOD BRAIN CANCER 15 CALLED "NEUROBLASTOMA." 16 Q I THINK WHAT YOU'RE TELLING US IS THAT -- WELL, 17 ENOUGH OF THAT. 18 HOW LONG WERE YOU AT THE N.I.H. DOING CANCER file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (21 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 RESEARCH ON CHILDHOOD BRAIN CANCER? 20 A A LITTLE BIT LESS THAN TWO YEARS. 21 Q THEN WHAT HAPPENED? 22 A WELL, I WAS PUT ON A DETAIL TO THE EXECUTIVE 23 OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT. AT THAT TIME -24 Q THE PRESIDENT OF WHAT? 25 A THE UNITED STATES. 26 Q PLEASE GO AHEAD. 27 A AT THAT TIME THERE WAS SOMETHING CALLED A 28 "SPECIAL ACTION OFFICE FOR DRUG ABUSE PREVENTION" THAT HAD file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (22 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3862 1 BEEN SET UP. ITS PURPOSE WAS -2 IT WAS SET UP IN 1970. AND ITS PURPOSE WAS TO 3 TRY TO COORDINATE EFFORTS MOSTLY TO TREAT HEROIN ADDICTION 4 PROBLEMS. THERE WAS AN EPIDEMIC AT THAT TIME. AND SO WE HAD 5 PEOPLE IN THAT OFFICE FROM -- WHO HAD BEEN BROUGHT IN FROM THE 6 NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH, FROM THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT, 7 FROM THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, FROM VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION TO 8 TRY TO COORDINATE EFFORTS. 9 AND THE PRIMARY THRUST, ALTHOUGH THERE WAS SOME 10 LAW ENFORCEMENT ACTIVITIES, WAS TO INCREASE TREATMENT OPTIONS 11 FOR PEOPLE WHO HAD HEROIN ADDITION. I WAS INVOLVED IN THE 12 PART OF THAT THAT WAS RUNNING STUDIES TO DEVELOP -- TRY TO 13 DEVELOP NEW PHARMACEUTICAL TREATMENTS FOR HEROIN ADDITION. 14 Q WHICH PRESIDENT -15 WHO WAS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WHEN 16 YOU WERE ASSIGNED TO THE EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT? 17 A NIXON. 18 Q WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (23 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 A WELL, AFTER DOING THAT FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS, I 20 LEFT THE GOVERNMENT AND I DID CONTRACT WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT 21 IN TWO PRIMARY AREAS. ONE WAS THE LEAD-BASED PAINT POISONING 22 PREVENTION PROGRAMS, AND THEN THE OTHER WAS AFTER I HAD WAITED 23 MY YEAR THAT -- THAT I HAD TO IN ORDER TO FULFILL THE LEGAL 24 REQUIREMENT OF BEING OUTSIDE THE GOVERNMENT, I THEN STARTED 25 ALSO WORKING ON THE CLINICAL TRIALS OF SOME OF THOSE SAME 26 PHARMACEUTICALS THAT WE WERE DEVELOPING WHILE I WAS PART OF 27 THE GOVERNMENT. 28 Q WERE YOU AFFILIATED WITH AN ORGANIZATION AT THAT file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (24 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3863 1 POINT? 2 A I WAS FUNDED BY THE CENTER FOR DISEASE CONTROL. 3 I WAS FUNDED BY THE NATIONAL BUREAU OF STANDARDS. I WAS 4 FUNDED BY THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE ON DRUG ABUSE FOR THE 5 DEVELOPMENT OF THE TREATMENTS FOR HEROIN ADDICTION, AND THE 6 DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING URBAN DEVELOPMENT -- THE LEAD-BASED 7 PAINT AREAS. AND THAT WAS ALSO WITH THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE 8 CONTROL. 9 Q SO WHAT YEARS ARE WE TALKING ABOUT NOW? 10 A WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE RANGE FROM '74 TO '82 11 ABOUT. 12 Q WHAT HAPPENED IN 1982? 13 A IN 1982, ACTUALLY, I WAS DOING CONSULTING WORK. 14 I HAD MY OWN COMPANY, AND I DISCOVERED THAT I REALLY DIDN'T 15 LIKE RUNNING A COMPANY. I HAD A NUMBER OF EMPLOYEES. I 16 ENJOYED DOING THE WORK. SO I CLOSED THE COMPANY. WE HAD 17 FINISHED WHAT WE WERE DOING, AND I DECIDED TO WORK IN THE 18 ENVIRONMENTAL OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AREA. AND I WENT TO WORK file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (25 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 FOR A COMPANY CALLED "WASHINGTON OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH 20 ASSOCIATES." 21 Q WHAT KIND OF WORK WERE YOU DOING THERE? 22 A THE WASHINGTON OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH WAS PRIMARILY 23 INVOLVED IN DOING VARIOUS KINDS OF MEDICAL SURVEILLANCE 24 PROGRAMS, BUT I WAS PARTICULARLY WORKING IN THE AREA CALLED 25 "RISK ASSESSMENT." WE WERE LOOKING AT ENVIRONMENTAL AND 26 OCCUPATIONAL EXPOSURES AND DEVELOPING, FOR EXAMPLE, CLEAN-UP 27 STANDARDS FOR PCB'S AT PUBLIC UTILITIES, AND ACTUALLY DID SOME 28 WORK FOR LOS ANGELES DEPARTMENT OF WATER AND POWER. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (26 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3864 1 THERE WAS A STANDARD THAT WAS DEVELOPED WHERE 2 M.S.D.S.'S WERE REQUIRED TO BE IN THE WORKPLACE, AND WE WERE 3 HIRED BY DEPARTMENT OF WATER AND POWER TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR 4 NOT THEIR EXISTING M.S.D.S.'S WERE PROPER, AND WHETHER OR NOT 5 THEY NEEDED TO BE IMPROVED IN ORDER TO INFORM THEIR WORKERS. 6 Q WHAT IS OCCUPATIONAL MEDICINE -- WITHDRAWN. 7 IS THERE A BRANCH OF THE PRACTICE OF MEDICINE 8 CALLED "OCCUPATIONAL MEDICINE"? 9 A YES. 10 Q WHAT IS THAT? 11 A OCCUPATIONAL MEDICINE IS TRYING TO -- BASICALLY 12 TRYING TO PROTECT WORKERS IN THE WORKPLACE AND EVALUATING 13 WHETHER OR NOT THEY HAVE RECEIVED ANY OCCUPATIONAL DISEASES OR 14 EVEN INJURIES SO THEY'RE A VERY WIDE RANGE. 15 MY ROLE IN THIS IS IN THE AREA OF TOXICOLOGY TO 16 SEE WHETHER OR NOT CHEMICAL EXPOSURES OR OTHER AGENTS HAVE 17 HARMED WORKERS. 18 Q YOU TOLD US THAT WHILE AT WASHINGTON file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (27 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 OCCUPATIONAL, BACK IN THOSE DAYS, YOU WERE DOING WORK ON THE 20 CHEMICAL CALLED "PCB'S"? 21 A POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS. THAT WAS THE FIRST 22 ONE I STARTED WORKING ON. ALSO OTHER CHEMICALS: DIOXINS AND 23 FURANS. BUT POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS WERE USED EXTENSIVELY 24 IN LARGE TRANSFORMERS FOR -- BECAUSE THEY WERE FIRE RESISTANT. 25 A LOT OF FIRE CODES REQUIRED THEM TO BE USED. AND ALSO IN 26 ELECTRIFIED RAIL CARS. ON THE EAST COAST WE ESPECIALLY HAVE A 27 LOT OF TRAINS THAT ARE RUN BY ELECTRICITY RATHER THAN BY 28 DIESEL POWER. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (28 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3865 1 Q SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE WERE YOU INVOLVED IN 2 DEVELOPING BAD-TASTING PAINT? 3 A RIGHT. 4 Q WHAT'S THAT ABOUT? 5 A THAT WAS AN IDEA OF ACTUALLY A PAINT 6 MANUFACTURER IN NEW YORK THAT IF YOU COULD COAT LEAD-BASED 7 PAINT WITH A BAD-TASTING SUBSTANCE, ONE WOULD BE ABLE TO 8 PREVENT CHILDREN FROM EATING THE PAINT. 9 WE ACTUALLY DID SOME -10 I DEVELOPED SOME ANIMAL TOXICITY TESTING 11 PROGRAM, AND WE ACTUALLY DEVELOPED A TESTING PROTOCOL FOR 12 SOMEBODY WHO DID RESEARCH AT COLUMBIA ON KIDS WHO WERE 13 ACTUALLY -- SEE WHETHER OR NOT THE MOUTHING OF OBJECTS THAT 14 WERE COATED WITH THIS PAINT WOULD MAKE THEM REJECT IT. NOT 15 THE PAINT. THEY WERE USING OBJECTS: BALLS AND THINGS THAT 16 KIDS MIGHT PUT IN THEIR MOUTH. 17 Q NOW, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT SOMEBODY. WHO IS 18 ERNST, E-R-N-S-T, WINDER, W-I-N-D-E-R? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (29 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 A HE WAS THE PRESIDENT OF AN ORGANIZATION CALLED 20 "THE AMERICAN HEALTH FOUNDATION," WHICH IS A NON-PROFIT 21 RESEARCH INSTITUTE THAT I JOINED IN 1989. 22 Q WHAT WAS ERNST WINDER'S SCIENTIFIC CLAIM TO 23 FAME, AS IT WERE? 24 A HE WAS THE FIRST PERSON OF THE UNITED STATES 25 THAT DID THE CONVINCING EPIDEMIOLOGY STUDY THAT SHOWED THAT 26 CIGARETTES CAUSED LUNG CANCER. THAT WAS DONE IN 1950. 27 IN ENGLAND, THE SAME YEAR, SIR RICHARD -- OR 28 RICHARD DOLE AT THAT TIME -- PUBLISHED A PAPER IN ENGLAND file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (30 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3866 1 WHICH DID THE SAME THING. SO THE TWO PAPERS TOGETHER REALLY, 2 AT LEAST FROM THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY STANDPOINT, BEGAN 3 ESTABLISHING THE FACT THAT LUNG CANCER WAS CAUSED FROM 4 CIGARETTE SMOKING. 5 Q SO DID ERNST WINDER FORM SOMETHING CALLED "THE 6 AMERICAN HEALTH FOUNDATION"? 7 A YES. 8 Q YOU WENT TO WORK FOR IT? 9 A YES. 10 Q AND WHEN YOU WORKED THERE, APPROXIMATELY HOW 11 MANY FOLKS WORKED THERE? 12 A THERE WERE ABOUT 200, 250. 13 Q WHAT WAS YOUR JOB TITLE THERE? 14 A I BECAME DIRECTOR OF THE DIVISION OF PATHOLOGY 15 AND TOXICOLOGY. AND I HAD A DEPARTMENT, BASICALLY ONE OF THE 16 DIVISIONS OF THE FOUNDATION. 17 Q WHAT WAS THE MISSION OF AMERICAN HEALTH 18 FOUNDATION WHEN YOU WERE THERE? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (31 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 A PRIMARILY CANCER PREVENTION RESEARCH. WE 20 CONTINUE TO DO A LOT OF RESEARCH ON CIGARETTES AND HOW 21 CIGARETTES CAUSE LUNG CANCER. BELIEVE IT OR NOT, WE STILL 22 DON'T REALLY KNOW. THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT CHEMICALS THAT 23 PROBABLY COME INTO PLAY IN CIGARETTE SMOKE THAT CAUSES LUNG 24 CANCER. BUT THAT WAS ONE OF THE ISSUES. 25 THERE WAS RESEARCH THAT WAS DONE ON FAT IN THE 26 DIET AND BREAST CANCER. THERE WAS RESEARCH ON FIBER AND COLON 27 CANCER. THERE WERE CERTAIN CHEMO PREVENTATIVE AGENTS THAT 28 WERE BEING TESTED LIKE SELENIUM COMPOUNDS AND OTHER THINGS. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (32 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3867 1 MY DIVISION WAS PRIMARILY INVOLVED WITH LOOKING 2 AT CHEMICAL EXPOSURES, AND WE WERE DOING MOSTLY LABORATORY 3 WORK ON THOSE. WE ALSO HAD -4 THE AMERICAN HEALTH FOUNDATION ALSO HAD AN 5 EPIDEMIOLOGY DIVISION. ERNST WINDER WAS AN EPIDEMIOLOGIST. I 6 WAS NOT IN THAT DIVISION, BUT I WORKED CLOSELY WITH THE 7 EPIDEMIOLOGISTS ALSO. 8 Q WHERE DID THE FUNDING COME FROM FOR THE WORK YOU 9 ALL WERE DOING AT THE AMERICAN HEALTH FOUNDATION? 10 A ABOUT 80 PERCENT OF THE FUNDING CAME FROM THE 11 NATIONAL CANCER INSTITUTE AND THE OTHER FROM THE AMERICAN 12 CANCER SOCIETY AND THEN FROM PRIVATE COMPANIES. 13 Q NOW, JUST AS A BASIC TOXICOLOGY CONCEPT, DO 14 TOXICOLOGISTS LOOK AT WHAT IS SOMETIMES CALLED AN "ANIMAL 15 MODEL"? 16 A YES. 17 Q WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO A TOXICOLOGIST, AN ANIMAL 18 MODEL? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (33 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 A WELL, IT MEANS THAT HOPEFULLY YOU CAN LEARN 20 SOMETHING ABOUT HUMAN DISEASE BY STUDYING THE ANIMAL MODEL FOR 21 THAT DISEASE. 22 IN THE CASE OF TOXICOLOGY, IT'S WHETHER OR NOT 23 WE CAN -24 WE TRY TO DO STUDIES ON EXPERIMENTAL ANIMALS, 25 BECAUSE WE CAN'T REALLY DO STUDIES ON HUMANS. YOU CAN LOOK AT 26 WHAT HAPPENED TO PEOPLE AFTER THEY HAVE EXPOSURES, BUT 27 EXPERIMENTALLY YOU REALLY HAVE TO USE ANIMALS. 28 OF COURSE, UNLESS YOU ARE WORKING ON DEVELOPING file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (34 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3868 1 A NEW PHARMACEUTICAL, BECAUSE THEN YOU ULTIMATELY HAVE TO TEST 2 IT OUT IN HUMANS TO SEE IF IT WORKS AND IF IT'S TOXIC TO HUMAN 3 ULTIMATELY. BUT FROM A TOXICOLOGIST'S STANDPOINT WE DO THE 4 EXPERIMENTAL WORK IN ANIMALS. 5 Q HAVE YOU, AS PART OF YOUR LIFE'S WORK TO DATE, 6 CONSIDERED THE QUESTION WHETHER THINGS THAT CAUSE CANCER IN 7 ANIMALS NECESSARILY AND INEVITABLY CAUSE CANCER IN HUMANS? 8 IS THAT SOMETHING YOU'VE CONSIDERED? 9 A THAT WAS ACTUALLY THE PRIMARY FOCUS OF MY 10 RESEARCH WHEN I WAS AT THE AMERICAN HEALTH FOUNDATION. 11 WE DO HAVE MODELS WHERE WE TEST CHEMICALS FOR 12 CARCINOGENICITY IN EXPERIMENTAL ANIMALS. WE NOW KNOW THAT IN 13 MANY OF THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES, THOSE CHEMICALS WOULDN'T CAUSE 14 THAT PARTICULAR KIND OF CANCER. MAYBE IT WOULDN'T EVEN CAUSE 15 CANCER AT ALL IN HUMANS. 16 SO WE HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT CERTAIN AREAS WHERE 17 THAT IS THE CASE AND ALSO AREAS WHERE THEIR ANIMAL MODEL SEEMS 18 TO MIMIC WHAT HAPPENS IN HUMANS. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (35 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 Q WITHOUT SPENDING TOO MUCH TIME ON THIS, WHY IS 20 IT THAT SOME CHEMICALS CAN CAUSE A CANCER IN A PARTICULAR 21 ANIMAL BUT NOT IN HUMANS? 22 A IT HAS TO DO, AGAIN, WITH THE BIOCHEMISTRY AND 23 PHYSIOLOGICAL DIFFERENCES AND ULTIMATELY THE GENETIC 24 DIFFERENCES BETWEEN ANIMALS AND HUMANS. 25 WE OBVIOUSLY HAVE -26 VISUALLY WE DON'T LOOK LIKE EXPERIMENTAL 27 ANIMALS. SO THAT'S A REFLECTION OF THE FACT THAT THEY'RE 28 GENETICALLY DIFFERENT FROM US. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (36 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3869 1 BUT JUST THE FACT THAT THEY LOOK DIFFERENT FROM 2 US IS ALSO REFLECTED IN TERMS OF THE WAY THEIR BODIES 3 METABOLIZE THE CHEMICALS OR REACT TO CHEMICALS IN COMPARISON 4 TO THE WAY THAT OURS DO. 5 Q I KNOW WE CAN'T DO EVERYTHING FIRST. I'M 6 GETTING AHEAD OF MYSELF. YOU HAVE JUST USED A WORD THAT WE'RE 7 GOING TO TALK ABOUT AFTER A WHILE AND THAT IS "METABOLIZE." 8 WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO A TOXICOLOGIST IF A HUMAN 9 OR AN ANIMAL METABOLIZES A CHEMICAL? 10 A IT MEANS IT CHANGES IT. THE BODY -- ENZYMES IN 11 THE BODY CHANGE THE CHEMICAL. THAT CAN BE FOR MANY REASONS. 12 FOR EXAMPLE, IF WE TAKE IN GLUCOSE, SUGAR, WE 13 METABOLIZE IT IN ORDER FOR OUR BODIES TO PRODUCE ENERGY. 14 IF WE TAKE IN A CHEMICAL, THE BODY CAN OFTEN 15 CHANGE IT SO IT'S EASIER FOR THE BODY TO EXCRETE IT, USUALLY 16 MAKE IT MORE WATER SOLUBLE, ATTACH OTHER CHEMICALS TO IT THAT 17 MAKES IT MORE WATER SOLUBLE AND EASIER TO EXCRETE IN THE 18 URINE. SO THOSE ARE A COUPLE OF EXAMPLES. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (37 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 Q WELL, LET ME GO TO ANOTHER EXAMPLE. 20 YOU ARE FAMILIAR, ARE YOU NOT, WITH A CHEMICAL 21 SUBSTANCE BENZENE C6-H6? 22 A YES. 23 Q ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE MANNER IN WHICH 24 BENZENE IS METABOLIZED IN THE HUMAN BODY? 25 A YES. 26 Q IN A SENTENCE OR TWO OR THREE, TELL THE JURY 27 ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS TO BENZENE WHEN IT GETS IN THE HUMAN BODY 28 RELATIVE TO THIS CONCEPT OF METABOLISM. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (38 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3870 1 A RIGHT. ONE OF THE -- THIS IS SORT OF -2 THE METABOLISM OF SOME CHEMICALS CAN BE KIND OF 3 A MIXED BLESSING TO THE BODY BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND IT HELPS 4 THE BODY EXCRETE THE CHEMICALS, BUT THE CHEMICAL REACTIONS IN 5 ORDER TO GET TO THAT POINT CAN OFTEN MAKE THEM MORE TOXIC. 6 IT'S CALLED "BIOACTIVATION." 7 IN THE CASE OF BENZENE, BENZENE ITSELF DOES NOT 8 APPEAR TO CAUSE ITS TOXIC PROPERTIES OR ITS ABILITY TO PRODUCE 9 LEUKEMIA, BUT IT'S THE METABOLITES OF BENZENE THAT DO THAT 10 THIS, THAT PRODUCE ACUTE MYELOGENOUS LEUKEMIA. AND IT'S A 11 VERY COMPLEX METABOLISM, AND IT'S NOT COMPLETELY UNDERSTOOD 12 EXACTLY HOW EACH OF THOSE METABOLITES THEN GO TO PRODUCING 13 BENZENE. THERE HAVE BEEN -14 THERE'S A COUPLE OF REASONABLE HYPOTHESES ABOUT 15 THE WAY THIS HAPPENS, BUT THIS IS AN AREA UNDER ACTIVE STUDY. 16 Q WE'RE GOING TO GET BACK TO WHO IS JOHN WHYSNER 17 IN A MINUTE, BUT I WANT TO GO BACK TO THE CONCEPT OF THE 18 DIFFERENCE IN ANIMALS AND HUMANS AS THEY -- WITH RESPECT TO file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (39 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 HOW A CERTAIN CHEMICAL OR MIXTURE OF CHEMICALS AFFECT ANIMALS 20 OR HUMANS. I WANT TO PICK A SUBSTANCE THAT WE ALL KNOW A 21 LITTLE SOMETHING ABOUT -- GASOLINE. 22 YOU KNOW ABOUT GASOLINE, I TAKE IT? 23 A YES. 24 Q AND DO YOU KNOW THAT GASOLINE, BOTH HISTORICALLY 25 AND PRESENTLY, CONTAINS BENZENE IN SOME AMOUNT? 26 A YES. 27 Q WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT? 28 A WELL, IT CONTAINS -- file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (40 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3871 1 GASOLINE CONTAINS SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 1 TO 3 2 PERCENT OF BENZENE. SOMETIMES AS HIGH AS 5, BUT I WOULD SAY 3 THAT THE SORT OF USUAL RANGE OF BENZENE CONTENT IS 1 TO 3 4 PERCENT IN GASOLINE. 5 Q AND IS GASOLINE -6 COULD GASOLINE BE DESCRIBED AS A HYDROCARBON 7 MIXTURE? 8 A YES. 9 Q HAVE YOU EDUCATED YOURSELF OVER THE YEARS AND 10 BECOME KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT THE EXTENT TO WHICH GASOLINE EITHER 11 IS OR IS NOT AN ANIMAL CARCINOGEN ON THE ONE HAND AND A HUMAN 12 CARCINOGEN ON THE OTHER HAND? 13 DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT? 14 A YES. 15 Q I THINK WE'RE ALL ON THE SAME PAGE HERE, BUT 16 TELL US WHAT YOU THINK THE WORD "CARCINOGEN" MEANS. 17 A WELL, CARCINOGEN IMPLIES THAT IT CAUSES CANCER, 18 AND THAT CAN EITHER BE IN EXPERIMENTAL ANIMALS OR IN HUMANS. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (41 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 SO THERE ARE ANIMAL CARCINOGENS AND THERE ARE KNOWN HUMAN 20 CARCINOGENS. 21 Q NOW, IN YOUR OPINION, TO A REASONABLE DEGREE OF 22 MEDICAL AND SCIENTIFIC PROBABILITY, HAS GASOLINE, THE MIXTURE, 23 BEEN SHOWN TO BE AN ANIMAL CARCINOGEN? 24 MR. WAGNON: OBJECTION; RELEVANCE. 25 THE COURT: OVERRULED. 26 YOU MAY RESPOND. 27 THE WITNESS: IT IS BELIEVED TO BE AN ANIMAL CARCINOGEN 28 IN THAT IT CAUSES -- HAS BEEN FOUND TO CAUSE LIVER TUMORS IN file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (42 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3872 1 MICE. BUT IT ALSO CAUSES KIDNEY TUMORS IN RATS, BUT THOSE ARE 2 NOT CONSIDERED TO BE RELEVANT TO ITS -- TO HUMAN 3 CARCINOGENICITY. 4 BY MR. RIFF: 5 Q DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION, TO A REASONABLE DEGREE 6 OF MEDICAL AND SCIENTIFIC PROBABILITY, WHETHER GASOLINE 7 CONTAINING 1 TO 3 PERCENT BENZENE IS OR IS NOT A HUMAN 8 CARCINOGEN? 9 A IT HAS NOT BEEN FOUND TO BE A HUMAN CARCINOGEN. 10 Q WELL, HOW IS IT THAT THIS STUFF CAN CAUSE KIDNEY 11 CANCER IN RODENTS, YET NOT BE A HUMAN CARCINOGEN? 12 DO YOU HAVE A TOXICOLOGICAL EXPLANATION FOR HOW 13 THAT'S THE CASE? 14 A YES. ACTUALLY, IN THE CASE OF GASOLINE, ONE OF 15 THE CHEMICALS THAT HAS BEEN BEST STUDIED IS A CHEMICAL CALLED 16 "LIMONENE," WHICH IS THE NATURAL OIL FROM CITRUS FRUIT SKINS. 17 THAT ALSO CAUSES THESE KIDNEY TUMORS IN MALE RATS. 18 WHAT HAPPENS IS BOTH LIMONENE, GASOLINE AND file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (43 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 THERE ARE A NUMBER OF OTHER COMPOUNDS, BIND TO A PROTEIN THAT 20 IS PRODUCED BY THE LIVER, EXTRUDED IN THE KIDNEY OF THE MALE 21 RAT. THIS PROTEIN IS PRODUCED IN VERY LARGE QUANTITIES BY THE 22 MALE RAT. IT'S THOUGHT ACTUALLY TO BE BINDING TO SOME KIND OF 23 SEX ATTRACTANT THAT IS EXCRETED IN THE URINE OF THE MALE RAT, 24 AND IT PRODUCES LARGE QUANTITIES OF THIS PROTEIN. THE 25 GASOLINE OR LIMONENE WILL BIND TO THIS PROTEIN AND CAUSE 26 TOXICITY IN THE KIDNEY, PREVENT IT FROM BEING EXCRETED 27 PROPERLY AND EVENTUALLY CAUSE TUMORS IN THE RAT KIDNEY. 28 NOW, HUMANS DON'T HAVE THIS PROTEIN. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (44 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3873 1 Q WHAT IS THE NAME OF THAT PROTEIN? 2 A IT'S CALLED "ALPHA 2-U GLOBULIN." 3 Q ALPHA 2-U GLOBULIN. MALE RATS HAVE THIS 4 PROTEIN? 5 A YES. 6 Q DO HUMAN BEINGS HAVE THIS PROTEIN? 7 A NO. 8 Q FEMALE RATS HAVE THIS PROTEIN? 9 A NO. 10 Q FEMALE RATS GET CANCER FROM GASOLINE IN THE 11 KIDNEY? 12 A NO. 13 Q DO MICE OF EITHER SPECIES GET KIDNEY CANCER? 14 A NO. ACTUALLY THEY HAVE A VERY SIMILAR PROTEIN 15 CALLED "MOUSE URINARY PROTEIN" OR M.U.P., BUT YET THEY DON'T 16 GET KIDNEY CANCER BECAUSE THE GASOLINE OR LIMONENE WON'T BIND 17 TO M.U.P. SO THEY DON'T GET THE TOXICITY. SO THIS IS A -18 WELL -- file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (45 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 Q NOW, TOXICOLOGISTS LIKE YOU ARE LOOKING AT 20 THINGS -- LOOKING AT THE MECHANISMS BY WHICH CANCER IS CAUSED 21 BY SPECIFIC AGENTS; IS THAT TRUE? 22 A YES. 23 Q AND IS THIS AN EXAMPLE OF THE IDENTIFICATION OF 24 A PARTICULAR CANCER-CAUSING MECHANISM THAT EXISTS IN ANIMALS, 25 SPECIFICALLY MALE RATS, BUT NOT IN HUMANS? 26 A YES. 27 Q NOW, LET ME ASK YOU THIS: 28 IF YOU PUMP GAS IN THIS STATE, YOU SEE A SIGN ON file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (46 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3874 1 THE SIDE OF THE PUMP THAT SAYS WORDS LIKE "VAPORS OF THIS 2 PRODUCT HAVE BEEN SHOWN TO CAUSE CANCER IN LABORATORY 3 ANIMALS." 4 IS THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE? 5 A YES. I WOULD PRESUME SO. 6 Q BUT GASOLINE IS NOT A HUMAN CARCINOGEN, IN YOUR 7 OPINION, TO A REASONABLE DEGREE OF MEDICAL PROBABILITY? 8 A CORRECT. 9 Q AND HAVE YOU TESTED -- IF THAT'S THE RIGHT WORD 10 -- HAVE YOU COMPARED YOUR OPINION ON THAT POINT THAT GASOLINE 11 WITH 1 TO 3 PERCENT BENZENE IS NOT A HUMAN CARCINOGEN -- HAVE 12 YOU COMPARED THAT WITH ASSESSMENTS BY AGENCIES, SUCH AS THE 13 INTERNATIONAL AGENCY FOR RESEARCH ON CANCER, AND THE 14 A.T.S.D.R., AGENCY FOR TOXIC SUBSTANCE AND DISEASE REGISTRY, 15 THE E.P.A., AND THE NATIONAL TOXICOLOGY PROGRAM AND THOSE 16 KINDS OF INSTITUTIONS? 17 MR. WAGNON: OBJECTION; RELEVANCE; COMPOUND; OVERLY 18 BROAD. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (47 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 THE COURT: OVERRULED. 20 YOU MAY RESPOND. 21 THE WITNESS: YES, I HAVE. 22 BY MR. RIFF: 23 Q AND TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, HAVE ANY OF THOSE 24 AGENCIES CONCLUDED THAT GASOLINE WITH 1 TO 3 PERCENT BENZENE 25 IS A HUMAN CARCINOGEN? 26 A NO. 27 Q SO LET'S GO BACK TO YOUR CAREER. 28 I THINK WE PICKED UP -- file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (48 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3875 1 IT'S 1989. YOU AND DR. WINDER ARE WORKING 2 TOGETHER AT THE AMERICAN HEALTH FOUNDATION. 3 HOW LONG DID YOU CONTINUE TO WORK THERE? 4 A I WORKED THERE UNTIL YEAR 2002. 5 Q WHILE YOU WERE THERE, DID YOU DO CONSULTING WORK 6 FOR, SAY, THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY? 7 A YES. 8 Q IN A COUPLE OF SENTENCES TELL US ABOUT THAT, 9 PLEASE. 10 A WELL, THE CONSULTING WORK I DID FOR THE E.P.A., 11 AGAIN, WAS HELPING THEM TO DESIGN BIOASSAYS FOR A UNIQUE 12 CHEMICAL THAT WAS FOUND AT A PLACE IN NEW JERSEY. 13 Q PLEASE STOP. I WANT YOU TO PULL THE MICROPHONE 14 A LITTLE CLOSER TO YOURSELF. 15 AND NOW TELL THE JURY WHAT A BIOASSAY IS. 16 A THE BIOASSAY IS THE WAY IN WHICH ONE DETERMINES 17 WHETHER OR NOT A CHEMICAL IS AN ANIMAL CARCINOGEN AND THERE'S 18 A DEFINED PROTOCOL. IN FACT, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF STEPS. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (49 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 YOU DO SHORTER-TERM STUDIES, AND THEN YOU DO A LONG-TERM STUDY 20 THAT IS FOR THE LIFETIME OF THE ANIMAL, AND YOU GIVE THEM HIGH 21 ENOUGH DOSES SO THAT IT CAUSES SOME TOXIC EFFECTS, BUT NOT SO 22 HIGH SO THAT ANIMALS DON'T SURVIVE FOR THEIR LIFETIME. AND 23 THEN YOU SEE WHETHER OR NOT THE CHEMICAL WILL CAUSE TUMORS IN 24 THE ANIMAL. 25 Q WHAT KIND OF WORK WERE YOU DOING FOR THE E.P.A., 26 PLEASE? 27 A THIS WAS A SITUATION THAT WAS A CANCER CLUSTER 28 IN A PART OF NEW JERSEY, CHILDHOOD CANCERS. THERE WERE file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (50 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3876 1 INCREASED LEUKEMIAS AND BRAIN TUMORS IN THIS COMMUNITY. AND 2 THEY ACTUALLY DID FIND CHEMICALS IN THE GROUND WATER AND 3 DRINKING WATER AND THEY WANTED TO TEST THEM. 4 WE ALREADY KNEW SOMETHING ABOUT SOME OF THEM, 5 BUT THERE WAS ONE UNIQUE COMPOUND THAT WAS FOUND IN THIS 6 SITUATION THAT HAD NEVER BEEN TESTED BEFORE. SO I WAS ASKED 7 TO PARTICIPATE IN HELPING TO DESIGN THE ANIMAL TESTING 8 STUDIES. 9 Q WHILE YOU WERE AT THE AMERICAN HEALTH FOUNDATION 10 DURING THOSE YEARS, DID YOU DO SOME WORK WITH THE AGENCY FOR 11 TOXIC SUBSTANCES ABUSE REGISTRY, THE A.T.S.D.R? 12 A YES. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT -13 I'M ALSO IN AN ORGANIZATION CALLED "THE AMERICAN 14 COLLEGE OF OCCUPATIONAL ENVIRONMENTAL MEDICINE," WHICH IS OUR 15 MAIN POSITION. WE'RE AN ORGANIZATION IN OCCUPATIONAL 16 ENVIRONMENTAL MEDICINE. AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE 17 A.T.S.D.R. DOES WITH THAT ORGANIZATION IS TO PROVIDE 18 CONTINUING EDUCATION FOR DOCTORS RELATED TO TOXIC CHEMICALS. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (51 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 AND SO I WAS ASKED TO PARTICIPATE IN DEVELOPING 20 SOME OF THE TEACHING TOOLS FOR THAT PROGRAM. 21 Q IN A COUPLE OF SENTENCES, TELL US ABOUT ANY WORK 22 YOU DID FOR THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL IN THOSE DAYS 23 WHILE IT WAS THE AMERICAN HEALTH FOUNDATION? 24 A WELL, ACTUALLY, THE CENTER FOR DISEASE CONTROL 25 HAD TO DO WITH THE LEAD-BASED PAINT. WORK THAT I HAD BEEN 26 DOING IN THE 70'S. 27 Q WHAT ABOUT THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF 28 TRANSPORTATION? WERE YOU DOING WORK FOR IT WHILE YOU WERE AT file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (52 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3877 1 THE AMERICAN HEALTH FOUNDATION? 2 A WELL, ACTUALLY THAT WAS WORK -3 I WAS ALSO CO-EMPLOYED BY WASHINGTON 4 OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH ASSOCIATES, TO A CERTAIN DEGREE, DURING 5 THAT PERIOD OF TIME. THE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION MAIN 6 OFFICE BUILDING HAD A SITUATION WHERE THE EMPLOYEES WERE 7 HAVING RESPIRATORY PROBLEMS. THERE WERE ABOUT 5,000 PEOPLE IN 8 THIS HEADQUARTERS BUILDING. AND THE QUESTION WAS WHETHER OR 9 NOT THERE WAS SOMETHING IN THE ENVIRONMENT IN THE BUILDING 10 THAT WAS CAUSING THEIR ILLNESS. 11 AND WE WENT IN AND EXAMINED -12 WE TALKED TO THE PEOPLE. WE ACTUALLY DIDN'T 13 PERFORM PHYSICAL EXAMINATIONS ON PEOPLE. WE TALKED TO THEM 14 ABOUT THEIR PROBLEMS AND ORDERED CERTAIN INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE 15 TESTING. 16 AND WE FOUND SOME THINGS IN THE AIR AND ALSO 17 SOME MOLD, WHAT ARE CALLED "TOXIGENIC FUNGI" IN THE BUILDING. 18 ONE OF THE MOST FAMOUS OF THOSE IS CALLED "STACHYBOTRYS," file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (53 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 WHICH IS BLACK MOLD THAT CAUSES TOXIC EFFECTS ON THE LUNG. 20 MR. RIFF: YOUR HONOR, MAY WE MARK FOR IDENTIFICATION 21 AS EXHIBIT 131 THE CURRICULUM VITAE DAY OF JOHN WHYSNER? 22 THE COURT: YES, 131 MAY BE MARKED. 23 (MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 24 EXHIBIT 131, CURRICULUM VITAE OF 25 JOHN WHYSNER.) 26 BY MR. RIFF: 27 Q DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF 131 IN FRONT OF YOU? 28 A YES. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (54 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3878 1 Q THAT'S YOUR C.V? 2 A YES. 3 MR. RIFF: MAY I OFFER 131? 4 MR. WAGNON: NO OBJECTION. 5 THE COURT: 131 IS RECEIVED. 6 (RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE 7 EXHIBIT 131.) 8 BY MR. RIFF: 9 Q WELL, HAVE YOU DONE ANY ORIGINAL RESEARCH 10 PUBLISHED IN THE WORLD PEER-REVIEWED PROFESSIONAL SCIENTIFIC 11 LITERATURE IN THE SUBJECT OR ON THE SUBJECT OF BENZENE? 12 A YES. 13 Q TELL THE JURY ABOUT THAT, PLEASE. 14 A ONE OF THE QUESTIONS IS HOW DOES BENZENE CAUSE 15 ACUTE MYELOGENOUS LEUKEMIA. AND WE WERE ASKED BY THE AMERICAN 16 PETROLEUM INSTITUTE TO LOOK AT THIS PROBLEM TO FIND OUT IF 17 THE -18 THERE HAVE BEEN 1400 GENOTOXICITY TESTS -- file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (55 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 Q WHAT ARE GENOTOXICITY TESTS? 20 A GENOTOXICITY TESTS ARE TESTS THAT ARE DONE IN 21 VARIOUS KINDS OF SYSTEMS TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT MUTATIONS 22 ARE PRODUCED BY A CHEMICAL, WHETHER OR NOT CERTAIN OTHER KINDS 23 OF CHROMOSOMAL ABERRATIONS OR ABNORMALITIES ARE PRODUCED BY 24 CHEMICALS. AND WE WERE ASKED BY THEM TO TAKE A LOOK AT ALL OF 25 THESE 1400 GENOTOXICITY TESTS TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT THEY 26 POINTED TOWARD ANY PARTICULAR TYPE OF MECHANISM BY WHICH 27 BENZENE COULD PRODUCE ACUTE MYELOGENOUS LEUKEMIA. 28 Q KIND OF LIKE THIS ALPHA 2-U GLOBIN, THE file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (56 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3879 1 MECHANISM CAUSING KIDNEY CANCER IN MALE RATS? 2 A CORRECT. 3 Q SO WHAT WAS THE BOTTOM LINE ON THAT WORK? 4 A THE BOTTOM LINE ON THAT WORK WAS THAT WE FOUND 5 THAT THE MOST PROBABLE MECHANISM -6 BENZENE IS NOT A MUTAGEN, OR ITS METABOLITES 7 DON'T ACTUALLY CAUSE SPECIFIC MUTATIONS IN CHROMOSOMES, BUT 8 THEY DO CAUSE CHROMOSOMAL BREAKS, AND WHERE CHROMOSOMES 9 CHANGED PARTNERS BETWEEN EACH OTHER, CALLED "TRANSLOCATIONS." 10 AND WE THOUGHT THAT THE MOST LIKELY MECHANISM, 11 GIVEN THE PATTERN OF GENOTOXICITY TESTS, WAS SOMETHING CALLED 12 INHIBITION OF AN ENZYME CALLED TOPOISOMERASE II. 13 Q PLEASE STOP. 14 IS THERE A NICKNAME THAT YOU TOXICOLOGISTS HAVE 15 FOR TOPOISOMERASE II? 16 A TOPO II. 17 Q NOW, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS WITH YOU BECAUSE 18 YOU HAVE NOW TOUCHED ON THE SUBJECT OF A MECHANISM BY WHICH file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (57 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 BENZENE CAUSES ACUTE MYELOGENOUS LEUKEMIA IN HUMANS, TRUE? 20 A YES. 21 Q ONE OF THE ISSUES IN THIS CASE FOR THIS JURY IS 22 WHETHER BENZENE CAUSES NON-HODGKIN'S LYMPHOMA IN HUMANS. AND 23 MAYBE I'LL JUST ASK YOU THE QUESTION RIGHT HERE AND NOW. 24 DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION, TO A REASONABLE DEGREE 25 OF MEDICAL AND SCIENTIFIC PROBABILITY, WHETHER BENZENE IN ANY 26 DOSE, FOR ANY DURATION OF EXPOSURE CAUSES NON-HODGKIN'S 27 LYMPHOMA IN HUMANS? 28 A YES, I DO. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (58 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3880 1 Q WHAT'S YOUR OPINION? 2 A MY OPINION IS THAT IT HAS NOT BEEN SHOWN TO 3 CAUSE NON-HODGKIN'S LYMPHOMA. 4 Q IS THE TOPO II MECHANISM THAT APPLIES TO BENZENE 5 AND A.M.L. IS THAT MECHANISM IN PLAY WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT 6 BENZENE AND NON-HODGKIN'S LYMPHOMA IN HUMANS IN YOUR OPINION 7 TO A REASONABLE DEGREE OF SCIENTIFIC PROBABILITY? 8 A NO. 9 Q SO YOU WERE TELLING ME ABOUT THE BOTTOM LINE ON 10 YOUR 1400 GENOTOX TESTS FOR BENZENE, AND I THINK WHAT YOU TOLD 11 US IS YOU HAD -- THE EVIDENCE WAS POINTING A TOPOISOMERASE II 12 INHIBITION MECHANISM BY WHICH BENZENE CAUSES A.M.L. IN HUMANS. 13 IS THAT WHERE WE WERE? 14 A YES. 15 Q IS THERE ANYTHING MORE TO BE SAID ABOUT THAT 16 WORK IN TERMS OF YOUR BOTTOM LINE? 17 A WELL, IT'S A MECHANISM BY WHICH CERTAIN SPECIFIC 18 KIND OF CHROMOSOMAL CHANGES ARE MADE. IN OTHER WORDS, THESE file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (59 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 TYPES OF TRANSLOCATIONS. IT WOULDN'T CAUSE ALL KINDS OF 20 TRANSLOCATIONS. CERTAIN SPECIFIC ONES. SO I THINK THE 21 CONCEPT HERE IS THAT THE KIND OF TRANSLOCATIONS CAUSE 22 JUXTAPOSITIONS OF CERTAIN GENES THAT THEN CAN LEAD TO ACUTE 23 MYELOGENOUS LEUKEMIA. 24 TOPOISOMERASE II -- CAN I EXPLAIN FOR A MINUTE 25 JUST WHAT IT IS? 26 Q HOLD ON. LET ME THINK WHETHER WE SHOULD DO THAT 27 NOW. 28 (PAUSE.) file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (60 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3881 1 Q I'D LIKE TO NOT DO THAT NOW. WE'RE GOING TO 2 COME BLACK TO THAT, THOUGH. 3 DID YOUR WORK IN THIS REGARD RESULT IN A 4 PUBLICATION ABOUT YOUR 1400 GENOTOX STUDIES? 5 A ACTUALLY TWO PUBLICATIONS. ONE WAS A 6 PRELIMINARY PUBLICATION. THE OTHER ONE WAS MUTATION RESEARCH 7 IN 2004. 8 Q AND THAT'S IN EXHIBIT 131 IN EVIDENCE, AND 9 THAT'S "WHYSNER GENOTOXICITY OF BENZENE AND ITS METABOLITES, 10 MUTATION RESEARCH," 2004? 11 A YES. 12 Q PAGES 3 -- PAGES 5, 6, 7, 8 AND 9 OF EXHIBIT 131 13 CONTAIN ALL OF YOUR PUBLICATIONS? 14 A YES. 15 Q ROUGHLY HOW MANY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT? 16 A I HAVEN'T COUNTED THEM, ACTUALLY, BUT 50, 60, 17 MAYBE. 18 Q SINCE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT YOUR WORK IN THIS CASE file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (61 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 INVOLVING CARCINOGENS, I'LL JUST ASK YOU: HAVE YOU PUBLISHED 20 SOMETHING CALLED "THE IDENTIFICATION AND CLASSIFICATION OF 21 CARCINOGENS" IN A COLLECTION OR BOOK CALLED "CARCINOGENS IN 22 THE WORKPLACE"? 23 A YES. 24 Q TELL US ABOUT THAT IN A WORD OR TWO, PLEASE. 25 A WELL, THAT PUBLICATION HAS COME OUT OF -26 I'VE ALSO DONE SOME CONSULTING WITH THE 27 INTERNATIONAL AGENCY FOR RESEARCH ON CANCER. SO I'VE BEEN 28 INVOLVED IN CLASSIFYING CARCINOGENS FOR THAT AGENCY IN THESE file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (62 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3882 1 WORKING GROUPS. AND THAT PUBLICATION WAS AN EXPLANATION OF 2 HOW THE CLASSIFICATION SYSTEMS WORK ACROSS FROM I.A.R.C. TO 3 E.P.A., TO N.T.P. THEY'RE VARIOUS ORGANIZATIONS THAT CLASSIFY 4 CARCINOGENS. AND ALSO SOME OF THE ISSUES LIKE THESE MECHANISM 5 ISSUES THAT COME INTO PLAY IN TERMS OF TRYING TO CLASSIFY 6 CARCINOGENS AND WHETHER SOMETHING IS A HUMAN CARCINOGEN OR IS 7 NOT A HUMAN CARCINOGEN. 8 Q I WANT TO TALK ABOUT I.A.R.C. IN A FEW MINUTES, 9 BUT LET ME ASK YOU THIS: IF YOU IN YOUR FORMAL LETTERHEAD, I 10 GUESS IT WOULD SAY "JOHN WHYSNER, M.D., PH.D. AND D.A.B.T? 11 A YES. 12 Q WHAT IS D.A.B.T., PLEASE? 13 A IT'S CALLED "DIPLOMAT AMERICAN BOARD OF 14 TOXICOLOGY." THAT IS MY BOARD CERTIFICATION. 15 Q SO WITHIN THIS WORLD OF TOXICOLOGY, THERE IS A 16 BOARD CERTIFICATION THAT SOME PEOPLE ACHIEVE? 17 A YES. 18 Q IS BEING A DIPLOMAT OF THE AMERICAN BOARD OF file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (63 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 TOXICOLOGY, IS THERE A HIGHER DISTINCTION IN TOXICOLOGY THAT 20 YOU'RE AWARE OF THAN BEING A D.A.B.T? 21 A WELL, IN TERMS OF AT LEAST A -22 I'LL TELL YOU ONE THING: THERE'S NO HARDER TEST 23 TO TAKE THAN FOR THE D.A.B.T. BUT, I MEAN, I GUESS SOME 24 AWARDS WOULD BE HIGHER, BUT THIS IS THE STANDARD ONE THAT 25 PEOPLE HAVE TO ACHIEVE IN ORDER TO PRACTICE TOXICOLOGY, AND, 26 FOR EXAMPLE, BE A HEAD OF A DEPARTMENT IN A PHARMACEUTICAL 27 COMPANY OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. 28 Q NOW, THERE ARE MORE THINGS WE COULD TALK ABOUT file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (64 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3883 1 IN YOUR BACKGROUND, AND I THINK I WILL JUST DO SO IN A RAPID 2 FIRE WAY. 3 YOU HAVE WITHIN YOUR WORLD OF MEDICINE AND 4 TOXICOLOGY STUDIED THE SUBSTANCE ACRYLONITRILE, 5 A-C-R-Y-L-O-N-I-T-R-I-L-E, WITH RESPECT TO BRAIN CANCER? 6 A YES. 7 Q HAVE YOU STUDIED THE FOOD ADDITIVE BUTYLATED 8 HYDROXYANISOLE WITH RESPECT TO ITS TOXICOLOGY? 9 A YES. 10 Q HAVE YOU STUDIED THE PHARMACEUTICAL DRUG 11 PHENOBARBITAL WITH RESPECT TO ITS ABILITY OR NON-ABILITY TO 12 CAUSE CANCER IN HUMANS? 13 A YES. 14 Q PHENOBARBITAL IS A DRUG SOMETIMES GIVEN TO FOLKS 15 WITH EPILEPSY? 16 A THAT'S CORRECT. 17 Q YOU'VE STUDIED PESTICIDES, SUCH AS CHLORDANE 18 WITH RESPECT TO ITS CAPACITY OR TO OTHERWISE TO CAUSE CANCER file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (65 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 IN HUMANS? 20 A YES. 21 Q DO YOU TEACH IN THE AREA OF TOXICOLOGY? 22 A YES, I DO. 23 Q WHERE DO YOU TEACH? 24 A I TEACH AT COLUMBIA AT THE SCHOOL OF PUBLIC 25 HEALTH, WHICH IS CO-LOCATED WITH THE MEDICAL SCHOOL. 26 Q THIS IS COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY IN NEW YORK CITY? 27 A YES. 28 Q WHAT DO YOU TEACH THERE? file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (66 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3884 1 A I TEACH A COURSE CALLED "FUNDAMENTALS OF 2 TOXICOLOGY" AND IT'S TO GRADUATE STUDENTS IN OUR COURSE. MOST 3 OF THE PEOPLE ARE GETTING THEIR MASTER'S IN PUBLIC HEALTH, BUT 4 WE HAVE ALSO PH.D. STUDENTS IN PUBLIC HEALTH. 5 Q HAVE YOU TAUGHT IN THE PAST IN A PLACE CALLED 6 THE "NEW YORK MEDICAL COLLEGE"? 7 A YES. 8 Q IS THAT A BIG OR A SMALL SCHOOL? 9 A IT'S ACTUALLY A PRETTY BIG SCHOOL. IT WAS 10 CO-LOCATED ON THE SAME CAMPUS WITH THE AMERICAN HEALTH 11 FOUNDATION, ALTHOUGH WE WERE INDEPENDENT FROM EACH OTHER. 12 Q WHAT DID YOU TEACH THERE? 13 A I WAS INVOLVED IN TEACHING RISK ASSESSMENT. 14 Q HAVE YOU TAUGHT AT YALE? 15 A YES. 16 Q WHAT HAVE YOU TAUGHT AT YALE? 17 A AGAIN, I PARTICIPATED IN THEIR TOXICOLOGY 18 PROGRAM. I GAVE THE LECTURE ON CARCINOGENISIS. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (67 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 Q IN ABOUT A MINUTE OR FIVE, WE ARE GOING TO GET 20 INTO THE GUTS OF YOUR OPINIONS HERE, BUT I JUST WANT TO MAKE 21 SURE THAT WE TALK ABOUT THIS THING YOU TOLD US ABOUT -22 INTERNATIONAL AGENCY FOR RESEARCH ON CANCER. SOMETIMES CALLED 23 I.A.R.C? 24 A YES. 25 Q DOES I.A.R.C. PUBLISH SOMETHING CALLED 26 "MONOGRAPHS"? 27 A YES. 28 Q TELL THE JURY WHAT THOSE ARE. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (68 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3885 1 A WHAT I.A.R.C. DOES IS ON A REGULAR BASIS, THREE 2 TIMES A YEAR, MAYBE EVEN FOUR TIMES A YEAR, THEY WILL BRING A 3 GROUP OF SCIENTISTS TOGETHER FROM DIFFERENT COUNTRIES WHO ARE 4 EXPERTS IN A PARTICULAR FIELD TO MAKE A DECISION ABOUT GROUPS 5 OF CHEMICALS AND WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE ANIMAL CARCINOGENS OR 6 HUMAN CARCINOGENS. 7 THE ONES THAT I WOULD PARTICIPATE IN WERE 8 PARTICULARLY INVOLVED IN THE ISSUE OF CANCER MECHANISM FOR 9 CERTAIN CHEMICALS. 10 Q DOES I.A.R.C. PUBLISH A SERIES OF MONOGRAPHS IN 11 A DISTINCTIVE ORANGE -- WITH A DISTINCTIVE ORANGE COVER? 12 A YES. 13 Q IS THAT WHAT I'M SHOWING YOU FROM ACROSS THE 14 ROOM? 15 A YES. 16 Q I.A.R.C. IS PART OF THE WORLD HEALTH 17 ORGANIZATION, YES? 18 A YES. AND THE MONOGRAPH IS -- file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (69 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 BASICALLY WHAT YOU DO AT THESE MEETINGS, YOU 20 ACTUALLY WRITE THE BOOK. YOU BRING DRAFTS. YOU PUT TOGETHER 21 THE DRAFTS. EVERYBODY CRITIQUES THE DRAFTS AND PUT THE BOOKS 22 TOGETHER. AND THEN PEOPLE VOTE ON WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS 23 SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE FOR A CHEMICAL TO BE FOUND TO BE AN ANIMAL 24 OR HUMAN CARCINOGEN. 25 Q DR. WHYSNER, HOW DID YOUR WORK AT I.A.R.C. 26 ASSIST YOU IN YOUR DEALING WITH AT LEAST ONE OF THE QUESTIONS 27 WE'VE ASKED YOU TO CONSIDER, WHICH IS WHETHER REFINED 28 HYDROCARBON SOLVENTS CONTAINING BENZENE ARE OR ARE NOT CAPABLE file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (70 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3886 1 OF CAUSING NON-HODGKIN'S LYMPHOMA IN HUMANS? 2 A WELL, AS PART OF THE WORKING GROUP, EVERYBODY 3 HAS TO VOTE ON EVERYTHING. SO I HAD TO WORK CLOSELY WITH THE 4 EPIDEMIOLOGISTS THERE. AND SO IN TERMS OF -- PARTICULARLY IN 5 THIS CASE -- ANALYZING THE EPIDEMIOLOGY LITERATURE, IT WAS 6 IMPORTANT FOR ME, ALONG WITH OF COURSE THE WORK I DID AT THE 7 AMERICAN HEALTH FOUNDATION WITH ERNST WINDER -- TO UNDERSTAND 8 -- AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT TOXICOLOGISTS HAVE TO DO -- IS 9 UNDERSTAND EPIDEMIOLOGY STUDIES IN ORDER TO DETERMINE WHETHER 10 OR NOT A CHEMICAL HAS BEEN SHOWN TO BE A HUMAN CARCINOGEN. 11 Q IS EPIDEMIOLOGY WITHIN THE SCIENCE OF 12 TOXICOLOGY? 13 A WELL, IT IS AND IT ISN'T. TOXICOLOGISTS HAVE 14 TO USE -- THERE ARE -15 SOME TOXICOLOGISTS ARE PURELY EXPERIMENTAL 16 TOXICOLOGISTS. BUT TOXICOLOGISTS LIKE MYSELF HAVE TO BE ABLE 17 TO USE ALL KINDS OF TESTS, INCLUDING INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE, 18 EPIDEMIOLOGY, ANIMAL TOXICITY TESTS, IN VITRO TESTS -- IN file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (71 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 ORDER TO DO OUR WORK. 20 Q DO YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF A PRACTICING 21 EPIDEMIOLOGIST? 22 A NO. 23 Q DO YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF KNOWLEDGEABLE AND 24 QUALIFIED -- WITHDRAWN. 25 DO YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT THE 26 SCIENCE OF EPIDEMIOLOGY? 27 A KNOWLEDGEABLE, YES, IN TERMS OF BEING ABLE TO 28 INTERPRET STUDIES. I WOULD NOT, AS AN EPIDEMIOLOGIST WOULD, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (72 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3887 1 DESIGN AND PERFORM AN EPIDEMIOLOGICAL STUDY, BUT IN TERMS OF 2 BEING ABLE TO ANALYZE THE RESULTS OF IT, YES, I DO CONSIDER 3 MYSELF TO BE CAPABLE. 4 Q TO CAST YOUR VOTE IN LEON, FRANCE AT AN I.A.R.C. 5 MEETING AS TO WHETHER OR NOT SOME SUBSTANCE IS OR IS NOT A 6 HUMAN CARCINOGEN, IS IT NECESSARY FOR YOU TO MASTER THE 7 EPIDEMIOLOGY THAT'S AVAILABLE ON THE TOPIC? 8 A YES. 9 Q AND YOU'VE DONE THAT? 10 A YES. 11 Q NOW, DO YOU THINK THAT THERE IS ANYTHING ABOUT 12 YOUR BACKGROUND, TRAINING OR EXPERIENCE THAT WE HAVE NOT 13 TALKED ABOUT THAT YOU THINK WE SHOULD SPEND A MINUTE ON WITH 14 THE JURY WHICH WILL HELP THE JURY EVALUATE YOUR OPINIONS, OR 15 HAVE WE PRETTY MUCH COVERED IT IN YOUR VIEW? 16 A I THINK WE'VE PRETTY MUCH COVERED IT, YES. 17 Q WELL, THEN LET'S TURN TO SOME VERY BASIC 18 CONCEPTS OF TOXICOLOGY AND GO FROM THERE. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (73 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE WORD "DOSE"? 20 A YES. 21 Q WHAT'S THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE WORD DOSE -22 WITHDRAWN. 23 HOW DOES THE CONCEPT OF DOSE PLAY OR AFFECT THE 24 SCIENCE OF TOXICOLOGY? 25 A ONE ALWAYS HAS TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE DOSE 26 WHEN ONE IS LOOKING AT WHETHER OR NOT A CHEMICAL IS GOING TO 27 BE TOXIC UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES. 28 ALL CHEMICALS CAN ACTUALLY BE TOXIC IF YOU PUSH file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (74 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3888 1 UP THE DOSE HIGH ENOUGH. AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHEN YOU DO AN 2 EXPERIMENTAL STUDY, THE PURPOSE OF THE STUDY IS TO SHOW TOXIC 3 EFFECTS. SO YOU PUSH UP THE DOSE HIGH ENOUGH TO SHOW A TOXIC 4 EFFECT. 5 FOR SOME CHEMICALS YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO VERY FAR 6 IN TERMS OF MILLIGRAMS OR KILOGRAMS. FOR OTHER CHEMICALS, YOU 7 HAVE TO GO PRETTY FAR TO DO SO. 8 Q WHAT DOES THE WORD "TOXIC" MEAN TO A 9 TOXICOLOGIST? 10 WHEN YOU SAY ALL SUBSTANCES OR MANY SUBSTANCES 11 ARE TOXIC, WHAT ARE YOU TELLING US? 12 A WE'RE REALLY JUST SAYING THAT ANYTHING CAN BE 13 TOXIC DEPENDING UPON THE DOSE. 14 Q WHAT DOES "TOXIC" MEAN? 15 A FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU HAD A PHARMACEUTICAL AND YOU 16 WERE TAKING IT TO TREAT A CONDITION THAT YOU HAVE, IF YOU TOOK 17 THE AMOUNT THAT WAS RECOMMENDED, IT WOULD BE BENEFICIAL. IF 18 YOU TOOK TOO MUCH, IT WOULD CAUSE HEALTH EFFECTS, WRONG HEALTH file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (75 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 EFFECTS TO YOU. SO THAT WOULD BE A TOXIC EFFECT. 20 Q AT MY REQUEST DID YOU PREPARE A SLIDE OR TWO TO 21 HELP ILLUSTRATE THIS CONCEPT? 22 A YES. 23 MR. RIFF: YOUR HONOR, WE HAVE MARKED A COLLECTION OF 24 SLIDES AS EXHIBIT 132 AND I PROPOSE TO SHOW SLIDE 1. 25 THE COURT: I THINK AS WE GO ALONG WE SHOULD MARK EACH 26 OF THESE WITH A DASH. THIS WILL BE THE FIRST PAGE YOU ARE 27 DISPLAYING? 28 MR. RIFF: -1. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (76 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3889 1 THE COURT: WHY DON'T WE DO -1, GIVEN THE NUMBER. SO 2 THIS IS 132-1. 3 (MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION 4 EXHIBIT 132-1, SLIDE 1.) 5 BY MR. RIFF: 6 Q IN THIS SLIDE, WHAT ARE YOU SHOWING US? 7 A WELL, WHAT I'M TRYING TO ILLUSTRATE HERE IS THAT 8 TAKING A CHEMICAL THAT EVERYBODY KNOWS ABOUT, ASPIRIN, AND TO 9 SHOW THAT AT LOW DOSES ONE TABLET PER DAY OR EVEN LESS THAN 10 ONE TABLET PER DAY, IT'S RECOMMENDED FOR PREVENTION OF HEART 11 ATTACKS. AND AT A HIGHER DOSE, IT'S USED TO TREAT HEADACHES 12 AND ARTHRITIS. 13 NOW, WHEN WE GET INTO THE HIGHER DOSES, FOR 14 EXAMPLE, TO TREAT ARTHRITIS, IN OTHER WORDS, EIGHT TABLETS A 15 DAY, WE CAN ALSO BEGIN TO SEE ONE OF ITS TOXIC EFFECTS AND 16 THAT'S TINNITUS, WHICH MEANS RINGING IN THE EAR. SO YOU CAN 17 -18 SOMETIMES PEOPLE WHO ARE TAKING LARGE DOSES OF file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (77 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 ASPIRIN, ALTHOUGH MOST PEOPLE TAKE IBUPROFEN THESE DAYS OR 20 TYLENOL, BUT WHEN PEOPLE TOOK IT -- HAD TO TAKE ASPIRIN FOR 21 ARTHRITIS, THEY WOULD HAVE TINNITUS. 22 THE MAXIMUM DAILY DOES RECOMMENDED IS 12 ASPIRIN 23 TABLETS A DAY. IF YOU GET INTO OVER TWICE THAT AMOUNT, SAY, 24 30 ASPIRIN TABLETS A DAY, LARGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WILL -25 SOME PEOPLE ARE VERY SENSITIVE. THEY WILL BEGIN 26 TO GET STOMACH UPSET FROM ASPIRIN, BUT MOST PEOPLE WILL BEGIN 27 TO FIND GASTROINTESTINAL BLEEDING AND ULCERS. 28 90 TABLETS -- AND PEOPLE HAVE TRIED TO COMMIT file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (78 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3890 1 SUICIDE TAKING ASPIRIN. 90 TABLETS CAUSES METABOLIC ACIDOSIS 2 THAT LEADS TO DEATH SO IT CAN BE LETHAL AS WELL. 3 Q SO ANOTHER WITNESS IN THIS CASE, I THINK, HAS 4 USED THE EXPRESSION THAT "DOSE MAKES THE POISON." 5 HAVE YOU EVER HEARD THAT BEFORE? 6 A YES. 7 Q HOW DOES THAT APPLY TO THIS CONCEPT, WHAT YOU'RE 8 SHOWING HERE WITH ASPIRIN? 9 A IT APPLIES. "THE DOSE MAKES THE POISON" WAS 10 STATED BY A PERSON WHO WAS SORT OF CONSIDERED TO BE THE 11 ORIGINAL TOXICOLOGIST, PARACELSUS, IN THE 1500'S. 12 Q LET ME SHOW YOU OR ASK US TO MOVE TO 132-2, 13 WHICH IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE USING ANOTHER SUBSTANCE ALCOHOL. 14 NOW, ON THIS SLIDE YOU HAVE -15 WELL, WHY DON'T YOU TELL US WHAT YOU'RE SHOWING 16 US ON THIS SLIDE, PLEASE. 17 A DOWN HERE ARE THE BLOOD ETHANOL LEVELS. THIS IS 18 THE RESPONSE. AND SO AT THIS -- IN THIS RANGE UP TO .08, file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (79 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 WHICH IS CONSIDERED TO BE SORT OF THE MINIMAL LEGAL LIMIT FOR 20 SOBRIETY, ALCOHOL IS CONSIDERED TO NOT HAVE EFFECTS ON 21 SOBRIETY -- NOT HAVE ADVERSE EFFECTS ON SOBRIETY. SO THIS IS 22 CONSIDERED TO BE THE SOBER RANGE OF -23 THIS IS TAKING ONE OR TWO GLASSES OF WINE WITH 24 DINNER. 25 Q THEN WHAT? 26 A AT HIGHER DOSES YOU HAVE SOMETHING CALLED 27 "EUPHORIA," WHICH IS THE GOOD FEELING THAT PEOPLE GET FROM 28 ALCOHOL AND WHICH IS SOMETIMES THE DESIRED EFFECT. AT HIGHER file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (80 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3891 1 DOSES WE HAVE EXCITEMENT, WHICH IS BEGINNING TO BE SIGNS OF 2 TOXICITY. THIS IS OVER EUPHORIA. THIS IS EXCITEMENT. THIS 3 IS IN SOME CASES PEOPLE NOT BEING ENTIRELY RATIONAL WITH THEIR 4 EUPHORIA. 5 THEN AT EVEN HIGHER LEVELS WE GET CONFUSION -6 THE COURT: CAN I JUST STOP RIGHT HERE FOR JUST A 7 MINUTE? 8 I'M JUST CONCERNED ABOUT THE LASER POINTER AT 9 THE EYES OF THE COURT REPORTER. IF YOU'RE GOING TO USE IT, 10 COULD YOU JUST STAND UP AND THEN YOUR LINE OF USING IT WILL BE 11 SAFE. 12 MR. RIFF: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. 13 THE WITNESS: I PROBABLY DON'T NEED TO USE IT. 14 THE COURT: DON'T BE DETERRED FROM USING IT. JUST 15 STAND UP, AND I THINK THE LINE TO THE SCREEN WILL BE BETTER. 16 BY MR. RIFF: 17 Q LET ME JUST GO ALL THE WAY HERE. 18 BY THE WAY, ALCOHOL, THE STUFF IN BEER AND WINE file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (81 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 AND VODKA, IS THAT A HUMAN CARCINOGEN? 20 A YES. IT CAUSES LIVER CANCER. 21 Q AND I GATHER WHAT YOU'RE SHOWING US IN THIS 22 TABLE IS THAT WITH INCREASING DOSE THERE IS INCREASING EFFECT? 23 A WELL, INCREASING EFFECT BUT ULTIMATELY 24 INCREASING TOXIC EFFECTS. 25 Q NOW, I'M MOVING ON TO THE NEXT TOPIC. 26 WE'RE GOING TO COME BACK TO THIS DOSE CONCEPT A 27 LITTLE LATER THIS MORNING OR EARLY THIS AFTERNOON. 28 I WANT TO TALK TO YOU AT THAT TIME ABOUT WHAT IS file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (82 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3892 1 THE DOSE OF BENZENE THAT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED, THE MINIMUM 2 DOSE, NECESSARY TO CAUSE A.M.L. IN HUMANS? 3 WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THAT THIS AFTERNOON OR 4 LATER ON THIS MORNING. 5 RIGHT NOW I WANT TO MOVE ON TO A DIFFERENT 6 TOPIC. 7 HERE'S THE QUESTION: IN ORDER TO EVALUATE THE 8 QUESTION, WHETHER BENZENE ON THE ONE HAND OR SOLVENTS ON THE 9 OTHER HAND ARE CAPABLE AT ANY DOSE FOR ANY DURATION OF 10 EXPOSURE, ARE CAPABLE OF CAUSING NON-HODGKIN'S LYMPHOMA IN 11 HUMANS -- WHAT DID YOU DO TO TRY TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION IN 12 THIS CASE? 13 A WELL, I LOOKED AT ALL THE LITERATURE I COULD 14 FIND THAT BORE ON THIS QUESTION, WHERE IT WAS EITHER -15 THERE WERE STUDIES OF NON-HODGKIN'S LYMPHOMA, 16 VARIOUS TYPES OF EPIDEMIOLOGY STUDIES OF NON-HODGKIN'S 17 LYMPHOMA AND BENZENE EXPOSURE AND ALSO EXPOSURES TO 18 PETROLEUM-BASED SOLVENTS. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (83 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 Q WHEN YOU SAY YOU LOOKED AT ALL THE LITERATURE 20 YOU COULD FIND, WHAT KIND OF LITERATURE DID YOU LOOK AT? 21 A PRIMARILY I LOOKED AT THE EPIDEMIOLOGY 22 LITERATURE. 23 Q WHY? 24 A BECAUSE THE EPIDEMIOLOGY LITERATURE IS THE ONE 25 THAT REALLY TELLS US WHETHER OR NOT A CHEMICAL CAN CAUSE 26 CANCER IN HUMANS. 27 Q WE'RE GOING TO SEE IN A FEW MINUTES COLLECTIONS 28 OF EPI-STUDIES THAT YOU ORGANIZED FOR US. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (84 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3893 1 I WANT YOU TO EXPLAIN TO US, ONCE YOU HAVE A 2 COLLECTION OF THESE EPIDEMIOLOGY STUDIES AND YOU'VE GOT A PILE 3 THAT LOOKS LIKE THIS THAT SAYS, YES. YOU HAVE ANOTHER PILE 4 THAT MAY BE BIGGER OR SMALLER THAT SAYS, NO. AND ANOTHER PILE 5 IN THE MIDDLE. 6 IS THERE A METHOD THAT SCIENTISTS LIKE YOU USE 7 TO TRY TO MAKE SENSE OF AND EVALUATE THAT COLLECTION OF 8 INFORMATION? 9 A YES. 10 Q WHAT IS THAT METHOD AND WHAT IS IT CALLED? 11 A I THINK THE GENERALLY-ACCEPTED METHOD IS 12 REFERRED TO AS THE BRADFORD-HILL METHODOLOGY. 13 Q WHO IS OR WAS BRADFORD-HILL? 14 A WELL, AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, THE STUDIES DONE BY 15 ERNST WINDER ON CIGARETTE SMOKING AND SIR RICHARD DOLE, WELL, 16 THERE WERE MOSTLY POSITIVE STUDIES BUT ALSO SOME NEGATIVE 17 STUDIES ON THIS PARTICULAR TOPIC. SO IN ORDER TO EVALUATE 18 THOSE, A METHODOLOGY HAD TO BE DEVELOPED. AND RICHARD DOLE file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (85 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 WAS ONE OF THE -- NOT RICHARD DOLE -- BRADFORD-HILL WAS ONE OF 20 THE PEOPLE WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR DOING THIS EVALUATION WORK. 21 AND SO HE IN THE PROCESS OF DOING THAT PUT 22 TOGETHER HIS METHODOLOGY. AND THAT METHODOLOGY INVOLVED 23 SEVERAL ELEMENTS THAT I THINK ARE NOW CONSIDERED TO BE 24 GENERALLY ACCEPTED IN THE MEDICAL AND SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY FOR 25 LOOKING AT THIS. 26 AND THAT METHODOLOGY HAS BEEN USED BY THE E.P.A. 27 AND THE SURGEON GENERAL'S WORK IN LOOKING AT CIGARETTE SMOKING 28 AND LUNG CANCER AS WELL. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (86 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3894 1 Q SO BRADFORD-HILL -- ACTUALLY, IT'S SIR AUSTIN 2 BRADFORD-HILL IN ENGLISH, EPIDEMIOLOGIST? 3 A YES. 4 Q BRADFORD-HILL IS HIS TWO-PART LAST NAME? 5 A I BELIEVE SO. 6 Q DID YOU UTILIZE THE BRADFORD-HILL METHODOLOGY, 7 HIS CRITERIA, IN EVALUATING FOR THIS JURY THIS MASS OF 8 INFORMATION ABOUT BENZENE AND SOLVENTS AND NON-HODGKIN'S 9 LYMPHOMA IN HUMANS? 10 A YES. 11 Q DO YOU HAVE A SLIDE THAT BRIEFLY DISCUSSES WHAT 12 THOSE VARIOUS BRADFORD-HILL CRITERIA ARE -- BRADFORD-HILL 13 ELEMENTS ARE? 14 A YES. 15 MR. RIFF: YOUR HONOR, I PROPOSE TO THEN DISPLAY AS 16 132-3, THAT SLIDE. 17 MR. WAGNON: OBJECTION; HEARSAY. 18 THE COURT: I THINK THE WITNESS HAS TO TESTIFY TO HIS file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (87 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 OPINION FIRST, TO HIS ANALYSIS FIRST. 20 MR. RIFF: OKAY. 21 Q WELL, WHAT ARE THE ELEMENTS? 22 A WELL, THE -23 THE MAJOR ELEMENTS INVOLVED IN ACTUALLY LOOKING 24 AT THE EPIDEMIOLOGY, ONE, IS STRENGTH OF ASSOCIATION. AND 25 THIS MEANS THAT YOU LOOK TO SEE HOW MUCH CANCER IS INCREASED 26 AMONG THE POPULATION THAT YOU'RE STUDYING. 27 FOR EXAMPLE, IN COHORT STUDIES, WHAT YOU DO IS 28 YOU COMPARE A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN EXPOSED TO A file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (88 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3895 1 PARTICULAR CHEMICAL AND EITHER COMPARE THEM TO ANOTHER GROUP 2 THAT HAS NOT BEEN EXPOSED OR YOU COMPARE THEM TO SOME 3 STATISTICS THAT YOU HAVE ABOUT THE RATE OF THAT DISEASE IN THE 4 GENERAL POPULATION. 5 Q WAIT A SECOND, PLEASE. 6 BEFORE WE -7 IS IT USEFUL TO TAKE A MINUTE TO TALK ABOUT THE 8 DIFFERENCE BETWEEN COHORT STUDIES AND CASE CONTROLLED STUDIES 9 BEFORE GETTING INTO THE BRADFORD-HILL SPECIFICS OR NOT? 10 A NO. I CAN DISCUSS STRENGTH OF ASSOCIATION JUST 11 WITH THE ILLUSTRATION OF THE COHORT STUDY. 12 Q STRENGTH OF ASSOCIATION. GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF 13 WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. 14 A SO CIGARETTE SMOKING CAUSES ABOUT A 10 TO 15 20-FOLD INCREASE IN THE RATE OF LUNG CANCER. 16 Q OVER WHAT? AS COMPARED TO WHAT? 17 A AS COMPARED TO THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T SMOKE. 18 SO THAT WOULD BE WHAT WE CALLED A "STANDARDIZED file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (89 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 MORTALITY RATE" OF 10 TO 20. 20 Q IS THAT THE STRENGTH OF ASSOCIATION? 21 A THAT'S CORRECT. 22 Q NOW, IN AN EPIDEMIOLOGICAL STUDY, IF THE EXPOSED 23 POPULATION HAS THE SAME INCIDENCE OF DISEASE AS THE UNEXPOSED 24 POPULATION, WHAT IS THE -- WHAT NUMBER, IN TERMS OF 25 ASSOCIATION, THAT IS ATTACHED TO THAT SITUATION, WHERE THE 26 UNEXPOSED AND THE EXPOSED PEOPLE HAVE THE EXACT SAME OUTCOME? 27 A ONE. 28 Q AND SOMETIMES IS THAT REFERRED TO AS A RELATIVE file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (90 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 3896 1 RISK? 2 A NOW YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A DIFFERENT KIND OF 3 STUDY. 4 Q IS THAT SOMETIMES CALLED AN "S.M.R"? 5 A YES. 6 Q S.M.R. EQUALS ONE. 7 IF IN SOME CIGARETTE STUDY, IF THE S.M.R., 8 STANDARD MORTALITY RATIO, WAS 10, WOULD THAT BE CONSIDERED A 9 STRONGER ASSOCIATION? 10 A YES. 11 Q AND IS THAT WHAT BRADFORD-HILL IS TALKING ABOUT 12 WHEN TALKING ABOUT STRENGTH OF ASSOCIATION? 13 A YES. 14 Q AND WHEN YOU WENT THROUGH THIS MASS OF STUDIES 15 REGARDING NON-HODGKIN'S LYMPHOMA AND BENZENE IN SOLVENTS, IS 16 ONE OF THE THINGS YOU WERE LOOKING FOR THE STRENGTH OF 17 ASSOCIATION? 18 A YES. file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (91 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM] file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt 19 Q PART OF YOUR METHOD; IS THAT TRUE? 20 A YES. 21 MR. RIFF: YOUR HONOR, WHENEVER IS CONVENIENT FOR THE 22 COURT, I CAN KEEP GOING OR STOP, WHATEVER YOU WISH. 23 THE COURT: IF THIS IS A GOOD POINT, WE CAN BREAK. 24 WHY DON'T WE COME BACK, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, AT 25 10 MINUTES UNTIL 11:00, SO THAT WILL GIVE US ABOUT 15 MINUTES. 26 THANK YOU. 27 28 (RECESS.) file:///C|/Users/MadeK42/Desktop/whysner-upload/10-27-08%20AM.txt (92 of 92) [10/18/2010 2:17:07 PM]