Document v6RRgYLB9w013nN6mGbObD8yR

1 2 STATE OF MINNESOTA 3 DISTRICT COURT COUNTY OF CARLTON SIXTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT 4 7 PERSONAL INJURY/CAREY 5 6 Arthur A. Frehse, 7 and Helen J. Frehse, husband and wife, . 8 Plaintiffs, 9 vs. 10 Anchor Packing Company, 11 et al., 12 Defendants. 13 14 15 VOLUME I 16 17 18 . Deposition of CARL U. DERNEKL, M.D., taken 19 pursuant to Notice of Taking Deposition, and taken before 20 Kirby A. Kennedy, a Notary Public in and for the County cf 21 Hennepin, State of Minnesota, on the 10th day of March 22 1939, at the Holiday Inn, University Plaza i Trade Center, 23 333 Sherman Parkway, Springfield, Missouri, commencing at 24 approximately. 9:15 o'clock a.m. 25 KIR3Y A. KENNEDY f. ASSOCIATED ('612) 922-1955 4. 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MICHAEL S. POLK, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of 3 HERTOGS, FLUEGEL, SIEBEN, POLK, JONES & LaVERDIERE, 999 ____ Westview Drive, Hastings, Minnesota 55033, appeared for and 4 on behalf of Plaintiff. u 5 ' ROBERT D. BROWNSON, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of STICH, ANGELL, KREIDLER & MUTH, Suite 120, The Crossings, 6 250 Second Avenue South, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant Conwed Corporation. 7 BRUCE JONES, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of 8 FAEGRE & BENSON, 2200 Norwest Center, 90 South Seventh Street, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402-39001, appeared for 9 and on behalf of Defendants Armstrong World Industries (Delaware), Inc., GAF Corporation, Keene Corporation, 10 National Gypsum Company, Owens-Corning Fiberglas Corporation, Owens-Illinois, Inc., Turner & Newall PLC, 11 Union Carbide Corporation and United States Gypsum Company. 12 WILLIAM D. HARVARD, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm .. Of BLASINGAME, BURCH, GARRARD & BRYANT, PC, 440 College 13 Avenue North, P.O. Sox 832, Athens, Georgia 30bui, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant Union Carbide Corporacion 14 and members of CCR. 15 ANTHONY J. LAURA, ESQUIRE, of che .Law Firm of KELLEY, DR YE & WARREN, 175 Soutr. Street, Morristown, New 16 Jersey 07960, appeared for ana on oehalf of Defendant Union Carbide Corporation. 17 18 . JOSEPH GOLDBERG, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of MILLER & WEARY, Suite 606, Park National Bank Building, 19 5353 Wayzata Boulevard, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55416, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant A. w. Chesterton 20 Company. 21 ROBERT E. DIEHL, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of MEAGHER, GEER, MARKHAM, ANDERSON, ADAMSON, FLASKAMP 5. 22 BRENNAN, 4200 Multifoods Tower, 33 South South Sixtn Street, Minneapolis, Minnesota .55402, appeared for and on 23 benalf of Defendant A.H. Bennett Company. 24 25 KIRBY A. KENNEDY &' ASSOC IAI EG ( 6 i 2 ) 922-1y 5 1 GARY E. 3ISH0P, ESQUIRE, of the'Law Firm of MANN, WALTER, BURKART, WEATHERS & WALTER, 300 John Q. 2 Hammons Parkway, Suite 600, Springfield, Missouri 65806, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant W. R. Grace & 3 Company. 4 INDEX: 5 Cross-Examination by Mr. Brownson 6 Cross-Examination by Mr.Polk Page 5 Page 116 7 Recross-Examination by Mr. Brownson Page 161 8 Cross-Examination by Mr. Goldberg Page 164 9 10 Dernehl Deposition Exhibits 1 through 44 marxed Page 4 11 Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 45 marked Page 55 12 Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 46 marked Page 147 13 14 15 10 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KIRBY A. KENNEDY &' ASSOCIATES .(612) .922-1955 :i 1 (At this time DERNEHL Deposition Exhibits 2 1 through 44 were marked for identification by 3 the Court Reporter.) ____ 4 . ' '' . ii 5~ " MR. JONES: Dr. Dernehl has informed us t> that he is a diabetic and for that reason is occasionally 7 subject to hypoglycemia. He has also asked us to watch him 3 carefully because he has difficulty because of lack of S concentration. He will take the measures that he can to 10 correct*'it. It's also important for that reason that we ii break for lunch right at 11:35 or noon. 12 MR. BROWNSON: Why den *L you make sur. i 3 chat we nave a wac.cn aerv. 14 13 know. 16 . 17 accommodate. MR. JONES: I just wanted to Jet you . 1IU. BRO'.MSOM: \lc will do anything to . ** lb (At this time o discussion was held oEf iy the record.) 20 2x CARL U. DERIJEUL, M.D., 22 the Witness in the above-entitled 23 matter after having been first duly , 24 sworij deposes and says as follows: 23 .* ! AIRLY a,- KENWiDY U a ilSOdiA dll - ~ ' (312) 022-1055 *- ^ y < * Mi r 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION 2 J BY MR. BROWNSON: ,, 4 Q. Dr. Dernehl, my name is Bob Brownson. I 5 introduced myself to you earlier. I represent a company 6 called Conwed Corporation/ which is a Defendant in a 7 lawsuit up in Minnesota brought by a James Manisto against many Defendants. Do you understand generally that we arc here on that case? Have you been informed of that fact? 10 A. I have been inform2d that there j.s .. inwsuit 11 which involves Union Carbide and that's about it. 12 Q. We are hare today to ask you some gumticns 13 concerning Union Carbine mutters ..mi L an going to start 14 out tiis questioning aiu others, n sum, .-/ill ; Lsa 15 question you. Before we start 1 would like to tell you ;> 10 coupi s or tilings The thrst is t f my qu .se ions r o not 17 clear to you or anyone's questions are not clear to you or La you don'tunderstand them, would you please tail us that 10 before you answer the question? P 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And that way vie will have a record which 22 reflects questions that you understood. Okay? *> A. Right. , 24 Q. And, Secondly, pleasespeck up audibly and 25 don't shake your head' or- shrug your holders or say huh-uh iv b P.BY A. Iht . v -A.*C i A i. ht* ' \Gi2) 322-1055 1 or those sorts of things because Kirby will have difficulty 2 with that. J A. I understand. 4 Q. And, finally, don't speak while I am speaking 5 and I will try not to speak while you are because he can't 6 take down two people at once. Is that agreeable? 7 A. Right. a Q. Dr.. Dernehl, have you ever had your deposition 9 taken before? iO A. Yes. il Q. lias it ever been taken in anyprcce^dlrgs 12 regarding an asbestos-related case? i3 A. 1 was called to give a deposition in an 14 asbestos-related case but the deposition was discontinued, x5 xt was a problem between tins attorneys. .. lb Q. Did you actually give any testimony on th 17 record or didn't it gee that far-3 la A. it never got that far. ' 19 Q. The depositions that you have given, generally i 20 in what context were those, what type of case7 2l A. Usually involving chemicals. ` 22 Q. Were those injury typo cases involving 23 chemicals or patent cases or what? ; 24 A. Injury type. 25 Q* Have you over cast ifled in court in an injurv -- KX i;aY A. Kb,s! i:4DDY U ASdOCi AT2: j ~ " (a^ i:) 932- l )55 7 1 case where you have actually gone with Counsel to the 2 courthouse and testified? 3 A. Yes. . 4 Q. Do you recall where that was? 5 'A. Well, there was some involving Workmans* 6 Compensation cases that were down in Galveston County in 7 Texas. I testified in Georgia, North Carolina, New York, 8 Tennessee, maybe some others. Those are ell can recall 9 right now. 1C Q. In any of those cases in which you have 11 testified, did they involve asbestos in any way7 12 A. They did not. U Q. Have you ever given testimony before Congress i-* ox any regulatory agency7 15 A. As I recall I testified before a Senate 10 nearing on the 0311A law during the days when it .was being 17 formulated. ' id 0. Was this the OSilA lav/ with respect tc asbestos 19 in the work place or something else? i 20 A. 14o, this was thebasic OSIIA lav/. 21 Q. Did that testimonyhave anything to. do with 22 asbestos or asbestos standards? 23 A. No, it did not. ( 24 U. Have ycu ever given any testimony r.o, ~.nd this 25 would be testimony under oath, in any forum regarding .UktfY A. KENNEDY /> A-Jf>OC r ATiSd ~' ' ' (612) 922-1955 8: 1 asbestos for OSliA standards which regulate -sbostos that 2 you can think of? 3 A. lio, I have not . 4 Q. Are you the author of any publications^ 5 ` A. Regarding anything? 6 Q. Well, I will start with that and I think we 7 will narrow it down pretty quick depending on what you say. a A. Yes. Q. About howmany publications have youauthored7 10 I don't need an exact number but give me aballpark figure. ii A. ,'en. .2 Q. bid any of those publioutione have anything to i 3 tio with asbestos? I '* A. They aid not. 15 w. iinver you contributed to any textbooks or 1 o publiv.at.ons or t-xus of any type which cVoa Lt with asbestos 17 even if you weren't the primary author7 ' 1J A. I hvive not. L'J Q. Have you peer reviewed any texts or articles i 20 or published material dealing with asbestos7 21 A. have net. ' 22 Q. Dr. Dornehl, how old are you at the ,nr -sent 23 time? 2l A. olv enty-f ive.. 23 Q. Are you currently employed ' t AlKb'/ A. kbWLlDDY o:b;oC;.\T:;n 1012) `j22-ll3Jj 7 1 i\. i'lo. ' 2 Q. Would you than beretired? 3 A. I an retired. .4 Q. Are you living here in Springfield? 5 A. Yes, I am. 6 Q. What was the last occupation you retired from' 7 A. I was the associate corporate medical director a of Union Carbide Corporation. y Q. When was the date of your retirement7 10 A.' It would be August, : guess, probublv the li 1979. 12 Q. And v/hera wj.e you located at the* fL-n..- oc your 13 retirement, where were you officing'* i** A. 2/'-' Idir; ,v .nuu, Jew York. 15 _>. Is that the iocaticn of tne main Union Carbide 16 meaic..^. upurtnent in tne Uni :*<} 3t<> t us, orpor-''*- ui-'dioal 17 department? A. was at that time. 19 Q. Has- that changed since that time7 i 20 A. Yes, if has. 21 Q. 'When did you begin with Union Carbide" - 22 A. \prii l, 1347. 23 Q. Let me just back up before that .i little 'bit 24 ana sk you wiiuL your formal education was before fa; t time7 25 A. I was in high schooL in i city called . dlKiiY A.- KJidUHUY t A? ioCl-V^C ' 16.!. i) 322-1355 " Wauwatosu, Vfisconsin, which is a suburb of Milwaukee. I entered the University of Wisconsin where I received a BA degree and then an M.D. degree. 4 t'* 5 b 7 Q. When did you receive youruM.D. 7 A. 1*38. Q. And that was from Wisconsin7 A. That was from Wisconsin. 6 Q. At Madison? y A. At Madison. 10 What was your BA in, what field7 11 A. 12 of Arts. Nothing specific, just g-*ner .1 arts, Bach a lor 1 y. .h.it tinj ring or fur~hrr .ducal:ion did you 14 obtain upon yetting your ii.d.5 - 1 J> v. 1 line a oa--y:: r rcta t >.ug internship at tho 10 tieuicai college of .Virginia in Richmond, Virginia, and then i7 i sceycu on for the first yo-.r of a medic 1 residency ,13 ' ia internal Medical Residency at the Medical College of ls> Virginia. 1 wa-s senoduieu to take the last two years of a 20 residency tnare but due to problems with the alunni, the 21 decision was made to drop a number of non-MCV graduates 22 from the residency program and so we had to look elsewhere. 2 J 1 then went to the medical branch of the University of, 24 Texas at Galveston, Texas, where 1 took two years in a 20 cri.t residency program, . which was . confl *y rat ion of- aIRiJY A. AdhhiiDY u -A.iSOCl.VriSd (l: 2) *>22-103\. l( 1 preventative and internal medicines. 2 Q. Sounds like the alumni at the Medical Colleen 3 of Virginia didn't like non--Virginia Medic* a L Col loge 4 graduates in the residency, is that it? ____ 5 'A. .Well,- their problem was that all but one of b their residents were from outside schools and the alumni 7 felt that some of these residency positions should bo a reserved for MCV graduates. At that time residencies were 9 hard to gee, and when we were told that we were going to be 10 dropped it was really only by sheer luck that I got this i 4. place down ac the University of Texas. Ai^ of the- rest of 12 them ware fiileu up years in advance. X J. following th.it residency in t'-.-xas die' you have j.4 any further education, formal education-? ij A. Aft...' finished the : -sidency, I was offer -*<1 lo a position on tne teaching faculty and i. stayed on in the 1/ Department of l-'cv..nf ivt Medicine t inching Occupational 1 -> Medicine from id42 to 1047. I'J Q. and did you then join Union 0.. rbido? ' 20 A. Joined Union Carbide in 1947. The University 21 request-,..! permission to keep no on -as an advising Lecturer, 22 whicn was granted by Carbiaa. [n the couple of years later, 23 Btiyior iledical college in Houston requested my s'ervicr-p Ss 24 a faculty member and I was given a position as Clinical 2 3 Assistant Professor of Occupational. Medicine, (n-.lustri l KIRBY A. K&tfhEDY AJOOCLAT \n\ ) J 1 Medicine at chat time 2 Q. Would you describe for us your positions m 3 the medical department at Union Carbide through the years, 4 can you take us through that chronology-3 ^ 5 A.' I started in 1947 as the medical director of 6 the Texas City plant, which was a large chemical plant. I 7 worked there until 1955 when I was transferred to New York d -<s assistant medical director of Union Carbide Corporation 9 with responsibility for the chemicals plants. In 1963 I 10 was given -unc title of director of toxicology for the 11 corporation. In 1965 I was given the title of associate1 Xt A` /* corporate iaedicai uireetor with responsibility for 1 toxicology and assorted general trouble shooting operations 14 4. Weis also at that U ima toid char 1 was to r-'present flic i 5 corporation in medical affairs in various specialty iu organisations like tna Manufacturing Chemists Ansc.i -tion. 17 Society of the Plastics Industry, Compressed Gas o Association. Those I think war; th; major jobs that I have L9 done. 20 <j. Then from '65 through '75 you wore associate 21 corporate neaicul director, do I have that right-3 - 22 A. *j5 uircugh '7i. 2 J Q. `79' ; 24 A. slight.. t 2 j U. And you wvi e; stat i oned during those y rr? : t KTitUY A. i\:2NNKUY S ASISOCIA'iMJ . Co..2) y.u-19Vi 12 1 Jew York City at the corporate offices on Park Avenue0 2 A. Right. 3 Q. During your years, at Union Carbide up through 4 1979, did you ever attend any conferences or symposia or 5 proceedings which had anything to do with asbestos0 6 A. 1 did. 7 Q. What and where were those0 a A. I really can't remember. 9 Q. Can you remember any of thin? 10 A. I can't give you any dates, but I know that i il attended some mat were conuuc -_u by Dr. G'*iikof f nl \t 12 least one that was conducted by the, I guess, 'lew York 1 J State incustr i-.l iiygieiio Depai: sent. 14 O. And do you recall whien conferances you ' 15 attended wniaii w-.r.- conductou by Dr. dnliKoff? 1 5 i\. Jo, 1 really don't. 1 / Q. Do you recall where those conferences were ib nolu? 1 9 A. in Hew York, as 1 recall. i* 20 Q. Utre they at Mount :>inai Hospital7 2l A. One of them was. 22 Q. here those conferences at which you attendee 23 by Dr. Jaiikoff confer one us jondueced by thi >ieu York t 24 Academy of dci.wnceu? 23 A . i ly - lor.'t r * menbe i kill:ji A. KbHDDDY & AS.JOOIA`l*:,b ' (.> IV.) 9 2 2-19 To *ns Si h -7: ** *i?v *. .v (!K >S 1 Q. Do you recall the topics unci at discussion at 2 those conferences with Dr. Selikoff? A. My recollection would bo they were the general^ 4 types of hazards associated with asbestos and some research reports on some of Selikoff's work. - 6 Q. Do you remember any of the other speakers at those conferences other than Dr. Selikoff himself3 a A. No, not really. 9 Q. Do you know if either of the Dr. McDonalds 10 were involved. Dr. A. V. or a Corbit McDonald? How about 1 x Dr. Wagner from South Africa, do you know if he had any 12 involvement? A. I don't believe x ev.: r hoard him. 14 Q. How about a doctor named Arthur Rohl, do you x a know xf iic was involved? % 16 A. L aon't remember. . x ; Q. ;iow about c doctor named Longer-3 lb A. i don't remember. is U. When did you first hear of the work of Dr. 20 Selikoff, do you recall that? A. Yes, it was during the testimony befor: the 22 Senate committee when OSHA was being formed. Dr. Selikoff 2 J testified immediately or a short cl me before I did m:l ho t 24 used the asbestos -- the observations he hod made in asbestos work irs as th. pressing point for sn OSHA ; -w. KUtiiY A.. RSUSl`t)V iiA-i) j.i:i i. :`t.> i Q. Do you remember when that 2 A. The best I could remember itwould have to b< 3 in the lute '60s or early '70s. __ 4 Q. Do you recall where this Senate hearing took 3 place? b A. Washington, D.C.. 7 Q. Was it some particular committee or S subcommittee of the Senate, do you recall'5 9 A. I don't recall that. I know it was in one of 10 the hearting rooms in the Senate office bu i. iJmg. 11 U. Do you remember any of the Senators who werv 12 present? j. _ A. i -in sorry, [ 'Jo:t' . Tr.only on-** thi.t rings 14 any kind oi a cell, -nd i don't remember his name, vnci hr 15 rfjs from 'i ~w J-. rs-.-y nd he v-/.:s on.- of trie Democrats -.nd one io of the pressing members of the issue. 17 Q. Whn die you first: become ? rr-'o 1 in niy way ' Id with tne asbestos group, if i can use that term, at Union 19 Carbide? i 20 A. 1 would have to say in certainly the '00s. 21 U. And do you recall what that involvement was 22 whet you diu at that time'-1 2 J A. At that time there was some conf irences with t 24 the corporate naditcii. director end the asbestos product Lori ^5 people at which ue discussed their plans fo7.' the production ~ A.kdY A. 'AlM-iVOY \ :v. oigi ' (5x2; 922-1355 " " 10 1 of asbestos. 2 U Mow, when you say asbestos production people. 3 are these the people at King- City, California, is that what 4 we are speaking about here? r 5 ' h. At that time they were the people in the Mew 6 York offices who were working on the concept of going into 7 the mining of asbestos at King City. u Q. So if we could put this in context, it sounds y like the King City deposit, the Coalingu deposit, had been lu discovered and now there was some discussions -:;s to going ii into production, is that about the time frame we are in'* x 2 A. That1s ;bout it, 13 Q. More there any written reports or documents 1-4 produced is a r*. suit oi taos*.* discussions -' 15 A. i. r-aiiy Jon' c. know. 'j. >;ho v/-:r Che v.afc-:tos production peopl e, if t 17 can use that term, who were involved in the* iiscussions? ' 1 L. -v. 1 : iVi.- no recoil tot ion. A 9 ii. Do you recall why the medical director and $ 20 yours rtf were in vox d in the discussions'' 21 /i. Because that was standard procedure-within l.h * I corporation, th^t wac-n we were about to embark upon . :v.*w 2 J manufacturing activity early in tha planning stages the 24 corporate madicaj department was brought into th. pirtur.-. . vi. `who was the. corporate medical director at tho- TTTJiTY ai I\777e7TTT7 < -.J; >C . .'V \iL'2) ')22-.lJV> n C $ , .1 ' ' U 1 time who was involved in the discussions? 2 A. Dr. Thomas Nale. 3 Q. is Dr. Nale still around7 4 A. He is dead. * __ 5 " Q. Other than yourself and Dr. Male, do you o recall any other people from the medical department 7 involved in those discussions? A. At that time I think there was just the two of 9 us. Lxcuse mu. There was one other who was involved at 10 that ti-me and that was our chief industrial hygienist, Paul 11 ;-IcDuniei. . 12 Q. is fir. il_J.miel s.ili around7 xj A. I really don't /.now. 14 Q. Do you know .1 ue i s Uilv.;'- 15 ix. il_* ,^s two years ago. 'whether ha .still is, . 1 u don't . i / 0* I tuze it. from your -.nsw'.-r th..t Tv;- is ho Id longer v/orking a: Union Carbide7 ` id A. No, ho retired a number of years ago. 20 Q. Do you know where he was as of a couple of 21 years ago7 22 A. I ttiink no was at Rochester, U.;/ York. 23 0. Let mo go back tothe year 1955 when you nov^d <-o t'l.-.w York City ro the ` medic a i department t Union Carbide. At chat pcint in unu I.want to ask you about the nodical ~ kjlkay ' KijU..1 i.-:L'Y v '>c [ [x> L 2) 022-19 55 ~ ~' IS 1 department, how it was set up. 1 tike it that the main 2 office of the medical department for Union Carbide 3 Corporation was in New York City at the Park Avenue address, 4 is that right? , ,t 5 A. We weren't in Park Avenue at that time. The 6 medical department was situated at 300 Madison Avenue. 7 Q. Did the medical department have its own 8 facility or was that in the corporate offices of Union 9 Carbide? 10 A. Well, tiiey had two medical departments in Mew li York; they had a rather large personnel medical department, which also was responsible for supervision of overseas 13 operations, and then the department they called the X 'x industrial iiituitinv ana toxicology da pat tmenc, which wa 3 13 comprised of two people. Dr. Wale and myself, .?ncl wer J. u at 200 Macison. . i7 'u. V.:herv v/as th f personnel medical department" ' id A. It was at, what was the address, let's see, i - j.? was on 42nd Street. Kignr around the corner on 42nd Street. 20 Q. Now, the personnel medical department, whet 21 generally dia they ao or what was their function at that 22 time? 23 A. Proviuoci medical service for people' .:lwit' 24 worked in the building, did j^re-employment examinations. t > And won ui tiiey, for oxampic, h v? anything :.n i<IU3Y A.. KhUMODY >\ -Ai> JOCl.Yi'IJS i ;.'i : 2 , } ?. 2 i ' ` 'j >. . V 11 1 ao with medical problems in the Union Carbide plant around 2 the country? 3 A. Wo. .. 4 Q. Was that under the auspices of you and Dr. 5 Hale? ' 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Mow, the personnel medical department, you say, Li also was in charge of overseas work. What was that? y A. Well, they did all the medical work for 10 individuals who were being sent overseas for either work X x positions or on trips and they r.*c< iv -.a . j.ot of the 12 questions that came up is a result of overseas operations i. J v/nero as they .. v_- ivee earn <: h / : . r . on.-K.y: I y o d on to 14 Dr. Mai* ana myself for answers. i3 *2 a . : r : % you nypoch tit exampv I,.-i 1 s 16 say a Union dor bile division m Brighton in .1353 some i / question c uuc up about cc-uda.cion m : factory, for x o example. Are you telling us that that question may hnv* 1 J cevn tonvi.yvu to the personnel a.iacul department who would l 20 then refer it to you and Dr. Male? A. IV...t sort of an operation, y.-s. . ' 22 d Dot 2 o A. Excuse w_-, let me tlsc- comment on :h.* fact t 24 tint wichout any specific directive in that direction in 2 3 t'ia subs --quoi r.w /jars o:.i on, I would say A.i. , A. KBtlMEDY a vSBOC i A \yi-.2; .) r> 3 ^b 1 overseas operations bsyati to respond directly to Dr. Male 2 and myself without going through the employee medical 3 services. . 4 Q. Well, would it be fair toisay that ultimately 5 such questions from overseas department about toxicology or 6 hygiene would end up in the department of you and Dr. Male? 7 A. Absolutely. a Q. And would that also be true about such 9 questions in this country, if the question came from a 10 Union Carbide facility hare about hygiene or toxicology, 11 that wouiu be referred to you or Dr. Male-3 i2 4*1 . / S . AR. JOJZSi what : ime period ..re you 14 teiKiny about? la 16 leae. . i 3;<0'.;e.>O.i: 1 was still talking '.bout 1 i tiY .hi. DUOWd JOii: J. W--<s -h<_c true dwn up through 1965, th-<t a .me ID general set up .from *55 to '65? 20 A. From '55 to '63 I ,/ouid s;*..y practically all of 2l the overseas operations problems came to Male and myself, 22 a.nd all of tne U.o. plant, opu'uuions cane io Ma!.nd 23 myself. / 2i U. .low, wnen you were promoted to director of 20 toxicology in 1963, was this still within the industr.ia . ; t `l. a!*,.v Itjij'C .< \aM ./C ii` "!' > v 6 L 2 ; )22-- L95e qj_ 1 medicine and toxicology branch of the nodical d'pc rtiuont ? 2 A. It was within the same framework with the j exception that soinewnere in there, and I really don't know____ 4 when or where, the toxicology was dropped from the department and it mainly became the industrial medical 6 department. 7 Q. But did that department still deal witn a hygiene and toxicology questions? 9 A. Right. 1U 0*. Throughout your tenure at the Kew York office 11 from 1965 to 1979, were you always involved with that particular isp.ct of the medical cop .rcra-n? ' . 1j A. Yes. Q. TL . toxtco..s>gy .. sp .e t ' . 1 j A. Yvs. i yj Ana 1 it that civ* n .raj h ong d Cron; time 17 to time but he subject matter remained the same? la t il 01 L wC L 19 >.' Other than Dr. tlaie and yourself, who else was i 20 involved in that department while you were there through 2x 79? .' j > A. L.:t's see. Dr. Kenneth Lane, who was . ti assistant medical director; Dr. Brian Bnlnntyne; a larg/ staff of industrial hygienists, Paul McDaniel b:inq one, i ?.J L-.o LuFn.nce. 1 can't remember the* other two. Thor.'* ar 7w Ac! 1KDY * ( C> 1 li > 922-1 k-J * ul . * .-U #: A { ( ;a 1 cue ones that 1 Knew best. There w-ara about four or five 2 others. An epidemiologist by the name of Susan Austin. J There was another M.D., Let's see, who was -- his name __ 4 escapes xae but he is now medical director of Cyanamid. ' 5 think that's about it. Wait a minute, I have to add on? 6 more, there was a change in corporate medical directors in 7 thurs, Dr. John Welsh was the corporate medical director 3 from 1963 to 1979 when I left. 3 Q. 1 think you answered this before but just so I 10 am clear on this point, from 1955 to 1979 were questions of i.: industrial hygiene and toxicology in Union Carbide facilities both in this country and overseas within Lh i. j jurisdiction c tis inc.uatrx*ii n.dicin: and toxicology 14 group? i j i. f . S , -ii .`V v.'Ji-. io j. Anu have you now given us the names of all the pv.opic> you can a.cili wio were- within Cv': group for these ' years, anyone else in that group that you can think of from *55 lo '79V . A. I reaiiy can't remember. Q. how, other than at the main medical office in i.h_-w York City, w ire there industrial hygiene type people, wnether they are medical doctors or not, at other Uniorn Jarbide i.otuL ions ' A Yes. TTddY {61.2} 932-1955 m mu i .::::: m m m w A3 1 Q. Generally how was that si-t up, can you tel1. U3 2 A. Generally it was set up on the basis of plant size and'management opinion,, let's put it that way, because we had -- in the chemicals operations where we had large clients, lots of people, lots of hazards, we had full time 6 medical services, one or two plant physicians, and 7 industrial hygienists, and nurses. And other operations G where we had just as many employees but the hazards were 9 different, they were lower, we would have part-time 10 positions in the community. So every plant we had had some 11 contact with physician who acted us the medic-* 1 director 12 for that particular unit. Q. how about King Git/, 0 liiforr.i.., no you know what medical personnel you had there through the yours? i j a. They had . outside consulting physician who lb examined their people, read their X-rays, handled my minor 1 / injuries they had and so forth. ' ia U. Do you know who that physician wjsv i'j A. i don't recall his nemo, 1 20 d. Was he at King City? 2^ A. 1 am not sure, it was either King City-Or 22 honueroy. I believe he was at King City. 2 > 0. iijve you ever been to King City" t 24 A. Twice. ' 0. Wh.:n was ' that, do you know7 Klitli* A.. KdhWKD* t ASSOCIATE* vCV. 2.* T22-L.':>'> jt i A . Once i believe in the middle ` GGo, ,-uunndd once I 2 think in the early `70s would be my best recollection. j Q. Do you recall the reason for either of those 4 visits? 5 A. Just routine. i 6 Q. And by routine, what do you mean, would you 7 visit all Union Carbide facilities on some rotating basis'5 6 A. When it was convenient to do so, yes. 'J Q. Do you recall when you wane to King City on 10 either of. chose visits what you did there? il A. I mot with the physician and reviewed a bunch 12 of X-rays with nim. I went down to the oLnnt and made a 4. aaarit cour. Ana . w.n.. out .o Uv nine sit a and observed 14 some or the mining operations and i had an iniustrial 1 i hygienist w: rh m. . fallowing ; iv coupletion of our survey 1 o we net with the management and gave them our opinions of i. x J vl. Do /cu recal l what your opinions warn of the iy status on either occasion? i 2U A. One thing chat was of concern to us was the 21 ore pile, whicn was being allowed to dry our and becoming 22 rether dusty :.nd we wore concerned about that s : dust 23 hazard. Anu wc were a bit concerned about certain t 2-i til.- lsitwnunc.i activities whici*. were allowing son*- of th.? 2b ventilation equipment to/deteriorate a little bit more than x:x-y a. v ,c.djc..vit; (612) y22-L03b 1 we would iikt to see, so there ware som leaks in 2 ventilation equipment. That's my recollection of our two 3 main concerns. . 4 Q. Did you recognize at the timp of the- first 5 visit chat asbestos dust could be in any way hazardous to 6 human health? 7 A. Yes, we knew that. b Q. is that one of the things you were looking fo; 9 on the visit? 10 A.' Yes. 11 Q. Wes h-.ro any .- .cognition at i.Iv.- L v.r. of th. 12 first visit that asbestos dust in some form and some dosa c oud cause cancer? i. -t A. Jv>: \j r _ .ono.rr:.d vi th the Jis 15 asbestosis, i >J At the i. ir...-. of th-.- first . isiv in -..he 17 mid-rybOs had you heard of the disease mesothelioma'* 1 3 \. . really can't recall just exactly wvn ' di: 19 first hear of that disease. 1 2 J Q. bo you :now when King City began, th? King 21 City facility, began taking chest X-rays from employees0 2 c A. As far -s _ know day one. 22 Q. Was that at your directive'' t A. That was at `-.hit time the directive ot Dr. l.'e.le who is the corporate, medical director. ; :<bY A.. KhdM-JDY & .w;:;oc l,\ ?'> ( 612'; 92 2-1 95 5 Ale a>. Q. What was the policy for chest X-r.nys of 2 employees at King City, was it an X-ray or some other - 3 A. 4 Q. 5 City? fly recollection is it was annual. This was done by this outside doctor at King i 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Ware those annual chest X-rays of employees 8 then kept on file somewhere? y A. As far as 1 know, the doctor kept them. 10 Q. Did Union Carbide keep them anywhere? i * n. WO. 12 Q. At any 2 im-c up through. L07U, o: v j n r i 13 that time, if you are aware of it, do you know if any i.4 .pidemtOiOgicai stony -.-s h..en of iiipley-' es .t civ i 3 King City facility? .Cv 17 0. Do you Know if there has been my screening ot - a n.vu of .'.-rays other tnan on a cast--by-cus. basis for i o* those employees? 20 A. Thor*.: Was a time, i don't remember exactly 21 when it was, bur. we did have a large number of X-rays >; 4 *m reviewed oy .. specialist in reading X-rays for dust 2 j exposure to make sure that the local people were not 24 nu.ssang -..nything. . ' f 23 <j- Do you Know when this was? 7777T7I KCCtdiwY u , ..>.`wC ;..\T '1 l G12 ) `322-10 33 1 I 3liy can't roca 11. 2 Q. Do you know where thi3 reading took place7 j A. I don't remember that either. 4 Q. Do you remember who the expert was7 5 A. I don't remember that either. b Q. Do you recall if he was a so-called 13 reader ' 7 A. 1 believe that's why he was selected. 8 o. Do you know if he was a radiologist7 } A. 1 believe ho was a radiologist. 10 vN Do you know whore the records or reports or findings of this screening would b>. ioc.it.al7 12 A. No, 1 do not. la U. Do you know i Z r.y written report or rin-lims i4 was ever prepared from that screening? X 1> . -.n't roc ill. 16 D. Do you.know at whose instance the screening 1 7 Was done or wnose request the screening was 'lone7 lb A. i tiiink it was done at the request of. ij personnel in the medical department, that is the Union i 2U Carbiuc medical department. j t U. bo the Union Carbide medical department at q.-.w 22 York? /.j A. Yes. 24 2. iipw, ocher than -- t i e A. m widenttlly, i ws not i.nvos vyi; in '.hat phis* ul Li BY A. KIJNUEDY t, ASoOC I tVl 3`> ' i v e 2 ( 02 2- .1 j ~>. 0 1 of things. I saw it from the side but at that time Dr. 2 Lane was doing most of the coverage of the King City j operations. 4 Q. So this X-ray reading or screening or whatever 5 you want to call it would have been done at the direction 0 of Dr. Lane? 7 A. Probably at Dr. Lana's request. 3 Q. Do you know if Dr. Lane actually went out to 9 King City to set tilings up or -- 10 A. I don't remember that. j.L Q. Is Dr. Laii- still <-,.1 ivo"5 12 A. Yes. J. Ji U. Is it :ia or she'3 14 A. tit; j. O 0. Is h.s s i . 1 d*1. Union Carorste^ . io A. '*o, he is retired. i / y. Do you Know where he is located? ib A liartiosvi iie, wkiahoma. 1U o. Do. you knew why this X-ray study of King City I 20 employees was done? 2 L A. ^ chink it was Jon i gust io give us a c';e 1 i ng 22 of confidence in the face that we had not observed any p_ocic.-i.is in the prop!' ami w. just v/untssd to make sure that 24 we weren't being suckered into a state of complacency. r :> y. W-s j.c ucii. -. 1) -C t u i:- the Union Curb id n dic\_ rvihlii 7T. Ki'Li'HJ tli ^ U A. j..'OC I f.'i' l el.: ) ' 2 J -- L 1 "j :: j" Vi c ::::::::::::::::::: :::::: :::::: l as department at that time recognised that exposure to 2 asbestos dust in some dose could cause disease? MR. JONES: Object to the form of the _ 4 question as argumentative. You can go ahead and answer. 5 Doctor! 6 A. We knew chat before they ever started mining 7 asbestos. 3 Q. Was there a recognition at the time this X-ray 9 study was done that exposure to asbestos could cause cancer, 10 a recognition at Union Carbide's medical department, that 11 asbestos exposure could cause cancer'-* 12 A. At the t ime that that review v;as cone, we know 13 of oclikoff's studies with regard to cancer and ..sbestos. l** w. w-is -h.r..- recognition .c th.- Union C >.rbad ? medical department at tne time that X-r:y study wms lone i. u tUa W ..sb .-JCOS OJl .1. C.iu:.- 13030 t.hv 11 Omu V 17 A. Ye s ' 13 d* W.s t.net recognition gained from Ur. 19 Jeiikoffs work-or from some other source"* I lio A. 1 would s..y diet Ur. doiikof's work v/as the 21 moving force behind the knowledge that there was an') $ issoci.tion b_-tween asuiscos exposure ane cancer. 23 e Ana by cancer would you include aiosothc Lioma7 t 24 2 V k. 3 2 0 C. iicv, t.'K? overs "ijii division ; ul Union *' irbui , ! ' it i n.-'.Y A. KENNEDY k `AJSOC.IATE J ' 222-1 Jb\i ~ y% v-i .... ( J sM 1 did they have their own medical departments or would all 2 hygiene -- stop there. Did the overseas divisions of Union J Carbide have their own medical department? __ 4 A. Yes, they did. ( ' Q. Would questions of toxicology and hygiene at overseas facilities be handled by those medical departments or would they all come to New York? U A. This would be handled by those medical 9 departments with the New York operation being the source of 10 expert knowledge if they needed it. 11 U. Did the MiogAxA. Pfltils research facility of 12 Union Carbide have its own medic il personnel at any time 1 . while you were with eh s romp in'/? i4 A. >ve tin ,tu7v a full time medical director at ij ch- dfeetro ft&fLoAtuC'giCai &roup in tsli fl^cuTflo^a-Lls m 5 955. lo It goes back earlier than that. 1 guess tne medical 1. / dir ector piobably was hired about the s aac tin*.- I was in * 47 1^ and he stayed on at Niagara Fails Falls until mayoe 1900. 19 Q. Diu he have anything to do with the asbestos I 20 group at Union Carbide? 4> X- A. Not chat I recall. . ' 22 Q. Was there anyone at the Union Carbide medical .2 department in N-..w York City ./ho had responsibility >jt c:n/ 24 time or another for asbestos related matters or for the 2-j Union Carbide asbestos group? 5.. Kiii Ai Kk7iTT7rih? ~ .dO*2 ; A i K i ' '{dl'2> 922-19:35 3! 1 A. In the medical department? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. It would be Dr. Lane. 4 Q. Do you recall what period op years Dr. Lane 5 dealt with chat topic? 6 A. Wot specifically. I would say probably from 7 the late -- probably the last ten years that 1 was there, iS about '66 to *79. 9 Q. Did the Union Carbide medical department in iO New York 'City have a medical libraryV ii A. toothing more chan the books -hat out selves 12 kept in our home. Q. Did it subscribe to .:ny m-dioal joiun. Is or. 14 periodicals * 15 a. Y.s. v,'. Do you .r nco 11 wnieh me fiscal journals cr 17 periodicals? 13 A. British Medical Journal was one. Journal of 19 Occupational liealtn, American Hygiene Medical Journal was another, Archives of industrial Health was another. hr had 21 a complete set of the Journal of industrial Hygiene.and > > Toxicology. Wait a minute now. 1 will have to qualify an 23 answer 1 :jvo you earlier when you asked me did we have a t ribrary. I h..d forgotten the feet, yt s, w. '.'id have- a 25 library. That's where we kept.all of these journals md v t^ . i\ ' Ul>Y *\ . -*.:* xO . t\ x *> (blA) 922-i955 - 1 collection of approximately 250 to 300 books. 2 Q. Did the Union Carbide medical department 3 subscribe to the publication-Nature? 4 A. I don't believe so. i 5 Q. how about. Lancetto? 6 A. Lancette, yes. 7 0. How about the New England Journal of Medicine-5 Si A. That was a personal subscription. 9 Q. To who, you? 10 A. Well, I carried it mvse.Lf for v number of J:C .*i years. i2 Q. How about Cancer5 u A. wo. 14 <J. How -.boar ch Archives of Environment:; 1 Health? 13 A. Yes. iu o- I.; ::nt sera thing niff : rent ta;n the Archives i7 of industrial Health? Are chose two different publications - 13 because you -arliec :\-.id to.ld us that you subscribed to t'n s 10 Archives of industrial Health? i ru A. I guess 1 probably meant the one that you 21 mentioned. .' 22 p. Th-s Archives of Environmental Health' 2_* A. The Archives of Environmental Health. 2 1 Ci. There also is a Journal of Archives of r5 Industrial Health. 711; ay .xUucJKDY * ''.yji AYE..; Itil2) 322-1935 ___ 33 1 A. Ass a mat tor of fact, 1 believe we had both of them because the Archives of Industrial Health, as I recall, was ^continuation of the Journal of Industrial Hygiene and 4 Toxicology. , D Q. How about the publication .entitled Chest"7 G A. No. 7 Q. How about the Canadian Medical Association a Journal? A. No. 10 Q.' The Britisn Journal Cancer? * 0 11 A. L X. iW% * The publication entitled American ilvi w of. 13 Re s p x r a co ry Disease? 14 A. No. ID Q . The publication _ nti w Led hivironu.mt.xl io Research? a 7 i^t t't o lb ;.i Mow .-.bout: the Annals of the New York Aendany 19 of jcijnccs ? _ > 2u A. 1 think we had some of chose but not ill of 21 thou. v > u bo you know if you had nhi.: issues dealing wi 23 any of Dr. jolixoff's studies7 24 J\. x.- taink w _> did. t ( j. What was the purpose for maintaining this A ._ hl.ll H*7 i f.i :>Jti '..I. a ^bl 2 ) 922-.L hi I ') i | I ( k ay* i I :: X r V: l :7s I ./ 3 1 medical library and subscribing to these medical journals 2 at the medical department of Union Carbide? 3 MR. JONES: Object on the grounds of __ 4 foundation. Go ahead and answer. it 5 'A. Reference work. 6 Q. And were these used by yourself and the other 7 medical personnel at the medical department? 3 A. These and other sources, yes. $> Q. Wh-t were the othersources? V/ere there other 10 medical.-libraries that your department used? 11 A. Yes. 12 0. V/nat were thosev A. Uxw Yc^ k \c..'tueay of Medicine Library. I gu.-ss 14 that would be che primary ether source for medical i a X* C Z XCflV- O o 1 'o J. bid ena Union Carbide m.dioni !ep.'-.rtnenf, 17 curing the years you were chore from '55 to ' 7S), do its own'' xo Lescarcn into eltuer industrial hygiene or toxicological ly issues? . 20 A. Yes, wo hue our own laboratory at MolIon 21 institute in Pittsburgh. 2. ^ Q. Now, before I get to t.hxt, other than at thw 2d Mellon Institute in Pittsburgh, was there research 2-4 cotiuuci.-d within the medical depjrfin :nc of Union Onrbi !.: during tno years you were there? IVJ I (612/ y22-j.dr/3 ;3T 1 A. Yes, on occasion wo participated in research 2 done at some other locations. 3 Q. Were any of those locations in this country"5 4 A. Yes. , 5 Q. Do you recall what they were"5 6 A. One was the CUT, Chemical Institute of 7 Industrial Toxicology at Chapel Hill -- at Research 6 Triangle, Research Triangle in North Carolina. There was 9 some work cone at some of the private consulting toxicoJcgy 10 laboratories in Illinois and I don't remember whore the il others were. 12 <2. Now, was this research at these plucks research actually done by Union Carbide medical p rsonne' 14 or was this research commissioned by an: on Carbxd.-. .aid do?-., 15 by these outside sources5 LU .a. Commissioner by Union C irbido .nd ion ? by i u - 17 outside people. ' l J. Now, did Union Carbide p.rsonnei ac their own 10 research? 1 - 2u A. At the Mellon Institute. 21 0. And which Union Carbide personnel did research 22 at the riel ion Institute in Pittsburgh"5 2 J A. Thera was a staff of about 35 people who / worked at tne chemical hygit.no fellowship ;-t the del Ion . e-> institute m Pittsburgn. At that time it was hooded by Dr. ra ulnaY A.. KENNEDY a A3\iU0I A 7.C.4 ' (old) S(fi 1 H. F. Smith, Junior. Second in command was Dr. C. P. A*. 2 Carpenter, and an inhalation specialist Urboano Pozzani, and statistician, Caroil Weil... I don't remember the other names. Qh During what years did Union Carbide conduct research at the Mellon Institute? A. From about 1938 through the present. Wait a a minute, I shouldn't say through the present any more 9 because 1 guess just about the time I left they severed 10 their relationship with Mellon and they maintained a 11 laboratory <j.s their own corporate toxicology laboratory. 12 Q. And is that corporate toxicology laboratory 1- still in existence? ` l-i A. 'i'o the best of ay know!edge, yes. 15 Q. Where is that? J. o A. i am not sure whether it's either bush ;?un 17 outside of Pittsburgit or up in Weschestor County, hew. York 1 j ..t -- r h..-ve forgotten the name of the place now. 19 Q. Was medical research commissioned byUnion ' 2u C-rbide au ny facilities overseas, during the years you 21 worked at Union Carbide? . 2 A. 1 tiiink, 1 am not certain about this, but I 2J believe that they had one study conducted by a Uritish t 2 l research .laboratory but I uo not r'member the name of the 25 laboratory. * \i ;' '' i \ *\i:',! i e Li I> f h h. 1 A ,'i (C.i2 ) 922- L Jr. i - -r-j tvs* m. 1 y. tfe will maybe talk about that '' little later. 2 Let me back up to another topic. Let me ask you a little J bit about the Mellon Institute because I don't know much 4 about it. Is this part of Carnegie Mellon University or is 5 this another institution? 6 A. Mellon institute was an organization founded 7 by the Mellon interests as a independent research center a run by the Mellon Institute in supporting a number of 9 different fellowships. Various corporations would contract, iu with the* Mellon institute for a fellowship; for example. 11 Union Carbide had a chemical fellowship there whore a lot i. A of the basic research in chemical processes vws baing (ton.-, 15 and this was prior to the formation of tne chemical hygien L * fellowship. Anu wii n *n Union Ccrbiti;. a:c.ib_d they 15 nad to icurn more ..bout era toxicology of thoir .products, j. :> Liiv_y estaoi i.Jher. .vnac tnay cal Led too. chemi cal hy.ji me 17 fellowsnip. And since they already had had chemical JLv> fciiowslups at Mellon, they established this chemical 19 hygiene fellowship at Mellon. i 2J Q. And whtic y..urs did Union Carbide have the 21 chemical hygiene fellowship at Mellon Institute?. 22 A. As long ;s Mellon Institute existed. \rvd 23 sometime, l would guess sometime in the '60s, the Mellon 2* *naticute was >:-.kcu over by -- w -it, let m > out it this way, 25 that the Mellon interests wo to- taken over by Carnegie h. kCY A.. dduMmuY u 5 a' >C L (oil) 922-19'i--  --mV *-* 3? 1 University and it that time was formed the Carnegie Mellon 2 University. 3 U. Okay. __ 4 A. The Institute people and activities then fell 5 under the umbrella of Carnegie Mellon University. And they stayed there up until the late '70s or very early '30s when Carbide decided, because of administrative problems with the University, to witnuruw their fellowship and establish 9 their own laboratories. lu Q. Now, the Union Carbide chemical hygiene 11 fellowship, 'was that a fellowship that -was always 'filled by 12 Union Carbide's personnel or would cduc b; ot>'>n to oth `n;5 ij a. All the people that worked there were -- this A-i KuS a peouiiui. situation. in.y wire pais by th>* Mellon 16 institute or Carnegie Mellon university, but they had ,iia la -he Ufj.i.d mu benefits or -Carbide employees so that wo 1 / always consiuered them as Carbide employees. AO C. Ana aid Carbide provide the fellowship funds 19 that were paid put through the University7 2u A. Thut *o cor rent. 21 d. 3o the actual reimbursements for th-se peopl 22 Came Lhiougn Carbide or directly through the University"* 2J A. correct. t 2-* w Anu uuiiiKj the y.:.ui*s that th =? industrial 2`i hygiene fellowship was in existence it the Mellon Institut \ I _*ibH. v Ka' I h hi..' I d - .iV'O I. a ' <. ia!2) D22-id6e 1 v/cis there always one fellow or were there sometimes nobody 2 or sometimes more than one or how did that work? S A. Well, I guess there were always a lot of 4 fellows. Henry Smith was the administrative fellow, and C 5 P. Carpenter was the assistant administrative follow, and 6 the others I guess would just be classified as fellows. 7 Q. Now, C. P. Carpenter, is that Charles ?. 8 Carpenter? y A. Right. 10 Q.* How about Edwin R. Xinkea-J, was h? a fellow-3 11 A. Kinkead came along later. I don't know wha r. 12 his status 10 Q. Do you know if he ever hold tha Union Cart*do 14 industrial hygiene fellowship at any time? ij A. don't know * C he v/.ij jv.-r c: asn ?u ;s 1G fellow there or not.. :ie may nave been. I don't rocnil. 1 / Q. was he kmu of - lower orb j Lon rostarchor' 18 A. He was not one of the top guys, 10 g. I assume chut the follows had staffs of i 20 technicians or researchers or whatever who worked for them 2l A. Yes. 22 g. So i.varyone who worked -there would nor. 20 necessarily be a fellow, is that correct'3 2-i a t hat * '3 cor r act t 25 g. Do you remember, in any event, that Sdv/urc ALh.iV \. KKtilihDY (ale) D22 NS'iO'J I .Yl't'f. 3j 1 Kinkead worked for some of the fellows at the Onion Carbide 2 industrial hygiene fellowship? 3 A. I don't know what Kinkead did. 4 Q. How about Urboano Pozzani,twas he a Union 5 Carbide industrial hygiene fellow? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Iiow about Charles C. Huun, do you recall him? 8 A. Yes, Haun was one of the later guys that came 9 in in the middle '60s probably. 10 iiow about John M. King"* il A. Also. 12 U. He was also under that fellowship'* 13 A. lie way in the fellowship, yes. 14 <2. iiow, 1 iu going to g. u into * his a little 15 later but I wanted to ask you now, in one of the reports ru issued oy .iw lloii institute it has v fc cached a mnilina 17 list and wo are going to look at this a little later,' bur 10 what .1 w-..nt *a ,,o ask you is it talks about vh-at seems to be 19 i different medical department and it says Number 4, Dr. C. 2d uccn.:tn. i.s your department called department 4* 21 A. Ho, it was on the fourth floor of the building. 22 Q. Actually I think in this particular cast- it 2 3 may mean that you got four copies'* A. TA'-t's also possible. 25 'J Lot me give, you some other names. There is an a .. ;<3Y A. idaa-iliC'f ' vo12) 922-1955 -'.V.id 1 I E. Hull. 1 uon11 know if is he a doctor. 2 A. He is. S Q. Was he in your department? 4 A. No, he was the medical director of the plant, 5 m South diarieston for a number of years and then in the 6 last five, six, eight years he was listed as the medical 7 director of the chemicals division. a Q. Where would he belocated'-* 9 A. South Charleston. 10 Q. Did they have their own medical department at li South Charleston? 12 A. Yes, they did. I j. Q. That' s 57est 7j.r j udc* 14 A. Yes. 1 _> ib ;or - > Is viu.-r _ . union Carbide pivinr. uh-.-.ra of soma 17 A. \ very largo plant in South Charleston. IB Q. Does that have a name? 19 A. South Charleston plant. i 20 Q. riow about Dr. R. E. Joyner-* 2 L A. Dr. Joyne-r took my place at. Texas City-when I 22 went to New York. ^ - U. During tue rSGOs was h>; located in Texas City, 24 do you know? . 2u A. Part oi the- tine. lie loft sour.-time in the 'AOs* V I i\ 13 A. XlilcILDY k VYiSCCLATES V 3 L 2 ; 922- m .: s :::::::: iiiiiiii m:;!!!!!! ::::::: if r ::: :::::::::::::: :::::::: 1 ::::::: mn m m:::::i:l: mu ".V.V.V V 1 ana became medical director for Snell Oil. 2 Q. How about Dr. R. J. Saxton? A. He was the medical director of the chemicals ^ plant at Institute, West Virginia. t ' Q. That's the name 1 was thinking of. How about Dr. F. E. Medford? 7 A. Medford. ii d. He may not be a doctor, F. 5. Medford0 9 A* I think he is. Ho was after my time, \ 1U believe. 11 Q. Do you Know -where he was located0 12 Wo. i- > is no witnm Union Cur'oic. * so-n.-whei.'o.0 14 a. 1 uni noc :iur. x J w* Uo you ,;now on.-re cut cesearea and, divelonment 15 elopertment library was Locacea? 1 / A. South Charleston, West Virginia. io Q, tiow about N. H. Kctch-im? - 19 /v. He was the chemical division chief industrial i 20 hygienist, i lie. was 'where. South Charleston? ' 22 Ac South Charleston. iiK. JOHES: Would this be a good time to take u brief break? MR. HROihJSUb': i think it woul.l. K1R.'3Y A. iCEU'MHDY & iSSCCIAVHri \ :,12 ) 95-) ... ( O- L 1 2 J 4 5 6 7 3 y 10 ^i i.2 lo 14 id 1G i7 id iy I 20 21 22 23 24 (At this time a brief recess was "taken. ) BY MR. BROWWSON: U* You mentioned earlier. Dr. Dernehl, that the chest X-rays of workers at King City were done at day one, do you mean day one of production at King City? A. At the time they were hired. Q. Does that go back to the time that King City started production? A. That would be about the time that the first people were hired. Q. 'When was that, Jo you remember, that production started? A. r don't . _meiriL'-:r . Q. Do you recall it 'ceing around IDG 3' A. 'in.- best . '..on id say : t would, probably be sometime in the early * 30s. 0. Wow, was there a policy cjuoirj Union Carbide plants elsewhere, other than King City, whorefor Union Carbide facilities that employees have annual chest X-rays? a. fes. U. rtlure el3e? M. All of thorn. - d. When uxd that policy begin''* A. I-would say probably in the early '4Cs. C. Do you knew - if Union Carbide .it any l i mo K1UUY A. KttJMLUY a adSbd CaTt'.d ' ^ o L 2 j 2 2 -- 10 S 5 X instituted a policy wherein it would advise its customers 2 of asbestos that their workers ought to have annual chest 3 X-rays? 4 5 back? ' MR. JOUES: Could you read the question . 6 (At this time the requested portion of the 7 transcript was read aloud by the Court 6 Reporter.) 9 MR. JOREo: Thank you. ID A. x don't recall that Carbide over advised any il of their customers on the specific steps that should be i. 2. fol lowa cl in protecting, their people against, tie' hazards cf 13 a materiai is the best day way i can express it, which in i 4 effect; says that ay die not taxi -- i -ie not tec-:t 11 that- \t i 13 told people specifically tnat choir people should have ,t L v) chest. X-ry .tc regular xnt. rv.ils, :xchough it is entirely X 7 possible chat customers may have been tole. this by sales ' X <> and marketing people wxi.ii ./horn they uoait, that is far as 19 the medical department is concerned we did not issue any i 20 directives to customers thru they should have an annual 2X X-ray on tneir people. .' re Q. Dxu die medical department issue any 2. directives to sales end marketing people that customers 4#*'f siiouxu ij: udv isob ; bout annuel chest X-rays for their25 workers? XTiTTT? ixITTHTETTY \ . JOCIA f c - > ' (U12J 922-1951 <&T 1 A. Not that I know of. 2 Q* Now, are you familiar with the OSHA standard concerning asbestos in the work place which took effect in ,xi -T^ 1972? . jr- u A. I am hardly familiar with it. I think I read v 6 through it once back when it first came out. 7 Q. I am not asking you at this point if you know 8 what it says, I am just asking you if you know that OSHA in y 1972 issued it's standard for asbestos in the work place'5 10 A. I know the issue, but I don't Know the date. 11 Q. Do you know if the Union Carbide medical 12 department ever issued any material for customers telling 13 -uscorners that ch..ir work', rs s iouid *ak- any kind of !* precautions against asbestos nust before the OSHA standard i 3 came out? i 0 Curbiu.. issued cert.i in niter i a Is tn:t wore 17 ..variable- to customers that would involve precautions' thar iJ should be tuson with regard to their-employees but I do not 19 recall what specific wording or specific precautions were p 20 involved in chose documents. 21 j. Do you know if any of these documents dealt sp_ ci L i Ceil ly with the topic of asbestos dust7 A. 1 thin* there were documents of that natu/re. 2-, J. Now, 1 am talking about uha time period before 23 the .UJIIA standards came an. lie' know there were after, the \J \. ;\ibiddUY \ i Vt'L'i ' v i> 12 ) 922--195 5 % r y i'i1.!< 1 OSiiA standard. 2 MR. JONES: I will object on the basis he 3 said he didn't know when the OSHA standard came in. Can ___ 4 you give him a date? u 5 THE WITNESS: He did, '72. 6 BY MR. BROWNSON: 7 Q. Just so my question is clear, let me start 8 over. Confining ourselves to the time period before th? 9 asbestos OSHA standard came out. 10 A. All right. Xi j. Do you know if in that time p~ .'rioi! Onion i 12 Carbide issued any literature or notice to customers as to .. ij how co protect their employees from .sbostos dust7 14 A. I would have to say fiat they did not issue, J.O to the busc of ry know' euga, information on now. the lb employees ware to ioo protected out I -in r .a son ably sur .: 17 that thc-y would fi-avc- issued information on what the ' id employee shoulu be protected against. How the employsv 19 provided ,-hat protection was up to the employer, not Union 20 Carbide. Q* Do you know what form these directives or S3 chase notices took? 23 A. My best, rocol iecti on would be they 'would ;bo in 24 product bulletins and notorial safety data sheets, .if thor t was on.: on asbestos ut th.it time, md in toxicology studies. ~ ,\i ijY A Kdi.-INhDi d \.i0Ci 1L'jCi ~~ ' ~ ^ ~~ ' ,412} v>22-..1 :>aa ' 7 1 2 a 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 !2 xo x4 13 1O 17 18 19 i* 20 * . 22 21 24 2J Q. I am going to show you what has been mark-a is Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 9, it's a document that's entitled "Union Carbide Material Safety Data Sheet". Is that tne type of sheet you just referred to? ' A. Q. That's the type of a sheet I am referring to. Okay. A. 3ut it's incomplete. Q. Because there is only one page there' A. That's right. - W. Let me show you what's been marked is Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 10 and ask you if this is a complete copy of that document? iia. GoLi)3RG: Just for . n> record, 3on, what is the title? HIS : "3 .if inti Cnrysotilo Asbestos, Product Specifications, Desor.i pt ions. Uses." A. What is the date on this' Q. There is a September *72 data up on the too. A. 1 have not seen this material safety data sheet. It was not made in my department. U. WolL, the questions 1 am asking right how. Dr. Dorneni, are not about the contents of this particular material safety anta sheet, I am just asking if this is the form or the type of material safety dace sheet that you referred to earlier? ' X . i<3Y A. K.XUNEDY. h U JCi, ' ( G13 ) 922-19J-J F] 1 JL This is a version or revision of "the material 2 safety data sheet that we used for other products. 3 Q. Do you know when the first naterial safety 4 data sheets were issued with respect to,i the Calidria 5 asbestos by Union Carbide? 6 A. No, I don't remember when. 7 Q. Did the medical department have anything to do 8 with providing the information on the material safety data 9 sheets which dealt with Calridia asbestos? 10 A*. if the material safety data sheet was prepared li in our medical department then we had an input into it. As i2 I indicated, I have not seen this particular material X J safety data sheet before. it was issued, ipparent.Jly, by 14 the asbestos people or the mining and metals people because -5 it came ouc i futile. And I aon't recall ever lb having seen it before. 17 Q. And you ..tie referring now to Dernehl exhibit Id lu, for tne record? 1J as, sir. 20 ,/ Now, you mentioned earlier that customers wera 21 not told what steps to take to protect their workers from asbestos dust but they were toil what the workers should >.? Z J protected from, is that a fair statement? X a. > Tivt t' s cor r ac t. 2i s.i And icok at.-the particular material safety* V i\i. XFiY ... ka il.jbby 'v - ijutyCl:u > V ul 2 ) J22-l9?h i*i'- * 1 data sheet we have here, which is Exhibit 10. There is a 2 heading down near the bottom which reads, "Effects of over 3 exposure," and it says, "Prolonged over exposure may result 4 in lung damage." 5 A. Right. 6 Q. Is that such a reference5 7 HR. JONES: Can you clarify the question? d BY HR. BR0WNS0N: 9 U. Well, is that, what you just spoke about where 10 Union Carbide said what they should be protected against7 xl A. That is part of it, but the cth .r part of it 12 is up there under "Permissible Exposure to Airborne i-> Concentrations". i`i *4 and tnac sets fortn `n._ o-hiA standard 15 requirement. is that xb A. I'll- it * :j i. 17 Q. in this ; Id A. /'_S, bed' 19 da, such and such, SO 20 w How, the 21 which is Exhibit 10, was issued after the OSHA standard for 22 esbestos dUSC.7 25 A. Right. / 0. ..ii-u i ,v.a wondering, before the is HA standard 25 for . asbestos, do you know what - the Union Carbide mater ini A. beiaiCWY . i .i .`i'-'C 1 < VV Eli (p!2i `.;22-195:i So 1 safety data sheet said about asbestos? 2 A. First of all, I don't recall whether there was one prior to this date and I would not recall what it said 4 without seeing the document. u 5 ' Q. Now, we had earlier been talking about what a** 6 notices Union Carbide gave to their customers about 7 protection of customer's workers from dust. Other than the a notices, which are headed material safety data, such as we y see m Exhibit 10, were there other types or forms of 10 notices-that were issued by Union Carbide to customers? n A. Product bulletins would be one. This is a -- 12 this is one type of a product bulletin. There were 13 probably others that were r.uc one that 'would nave nude 14 reference to the aatarus of the proauet end precautions i-> that shouia cc trek- a in Handling. .nether one, ot course', lb is the laoei types .which is put on the precincts which also 17 give pi cautions and warnings. lb d. i am going to show you now what has been iy i.;arkau us Darnehi Deposition Exhibit 15 and ask is you if 20 this is a Union Carbide information bulletin of the type 21 that you just mentioned? 22 A. This is one such bulletin, yes. 2 J Q. And :ny question is, look at the first p-vge of a a that exhibit, it's got this heading at the ton that cays, l..s tos Product Information 2ui 1st in. " . '.\iKiii A. KhMhElJ'i .'< v.i JOCI ATih ' vu:2; '22-.i )->l> SI 1 A. Yes 2 Q. Is that the type of heading that these product 3 information bulletins would carry, the ones that you have 4 mentioned? ( 5 A. Some of them, yes. 6 Q. Have you ever seen that particular heading */* before? 3 A. I really don't recall. 9 Q. On the right corner of theheading there is 10 some Kind of a logo that appears to be a jumble offibers. il Do you Know what that is, what that portrays? 12 MR. JONES: Object to the 1j characterization by Counsel but go ahead and answer. 14 BY MR. BROWH3GN: ili Q. Do you knov/ what the iogo up on the upper lb righc-hand corner of the exhibit portrays? 17 A. I -m sure I con't know. All I can think of is' lb it probably refers to asbestos fibers. 19 0. Do those look co you like a magnified picture i 20 of asbestos fibers? 21 MR. JONES: Objection. . '' 22 A. I am sure i don't know. 2 J 0. Have you over observed Calridia asbestos under 24 the microscope? 2j . A. Yes. I looked it soni of the samples ~ ,;ihaY A. KENNEDY & -AoSOCIATE . 7 dj 12) 9 2 2 -- i 'J 'j h . collected by our industrial hygienists. They did not look like that. d. ifhut did they look like, the ones that you saw' A. Weil, first of all, they were very short fibers, not long drawn out fibers, but they were very 3hort fibers. They weren't single strands but they tended to be sort of -- how could I best describe it? You could see that they seemed to be made up of bundles of very small fibers of unequal length, that's the best way I can describe it. U. Are you familiar with cne different types of asbestos fibers? A. Mot rouiiy. L know that ehrysotile generally is considered to be the long fiber asbestos. y.The long or the short0 *\ ijOIlj w. Long. Okay. a. it is the type of asbestos commonly usei in weaving the ropes and tne rant and such because of its long fiber characteristics. Q. fibers? Are you familiar with the term anphiboie A. 1 know it's a type of asbestos, but other than / that i know no more about it. Q. Are you familiar with the* term serpentine '" ihar A. KLhJuDi A, Aa jnCla'i't" ~~ 1 fibers? 2 A. Serpentine, to the best of my knowledge, is 3 simply a mineral classification. Beyond that I don't know 4 anything about it. .t 5 i}. The logo on Exhibit 15 in the upper right-hand 6 corner, what type of asbestos fibers does that look like to 7 you, based on your own knowledge? a MR. JONES: Object to the form of the 9 question. Lack of foundation. He has already stated he 10 doesn't know what those are. JL A. MR. POLK: I want the record to reflect 12 that the witness was about to answer the question. x J MR. UROW'KSOU: He also stated he didn't 14 think ' that 'was Calridia fiber. I am - ..skinu him wi;ai he x5 thinks it is. lb I would say it would be i long fiber 17 chrysctlie. lb /j. But not Calridia? 19 A. No. way. i 2 J Q. Do you know if Union Carbide mined any 21 chrysotilc other than that out of the Calridia deposit at 22 King City at any tine7 23 A. Not tnat I know of. 2`* Do you know if Union Carbide: sold any fiber 25 other tiion chat , tnc Calridia fiber from King City? KiRUY A. KENNEDY .'i . ViRQClATLN ' (ill2 j 922-L935 Vr~L- ( ..A 1 I have no idea 2 Q. I guess what I an wondering is do you know why 3 i.he logo on the product information bulletin, such as 4 Exhibit 15, would show a long chrysotilp fiber that wasn't 5 Calidria that Union Carbide didn't mine or sell such fiber? 6 MR. JONES: Object to the form of the 7 question, lacking foundation. 8 A. I would have no way of knowing why the art 9 department of Carbide did what they did. 10 Q. Are you familiar with the term blue asbestos'3 ii Have you ever heard that used? 12 A. Yes. As 1 recall, that referred to asbestos io that they mined n South Africa, croc idol ice*. 14 w. I Jon'c know. I am asking you. 13 a. i think. il .-m r.ct sure. 10 a. Okay. . 17 a. but 1 beiiave it refers to the asbestos mined lo in South Africa. 19 Q. To.the best of your knowledge that is i 20 croeidolite fiber7 2r A. To my recollection. 22 Q. Have you ever heard of a brand of asbestos known as Johns-.ktnvillo Ultrabestos blue asbestos'3 t 24 A. i.'nave hoard of Johns-Hanvi 1 i, beyond that 2.A> nothing. .. ;---------------------- NiliUY A.. 'Rti.WWCOY u rSodClAt-dS (\* 12) 922-L95j ---------------------- i Q. Do you know if Johns-Manville mined nay 2 asbestos from the Coalinga deposit around King City' 3 A. I believe they had a mine maybe 30 miles east 4 of King City. Unless X am wrong, I thinlj it was at a town 5 called Coalinga. 6 0. Do you know what type of asbestos 7 Johns-i-lanville mined at that facility? o A. 1 have no idea. 9 Q. Are you aware of Union Carbide ever iO commissioning any research or studies into the toxicity or li toxicology of the Coalinga or Calridiu fiber' 12 A. Yes, we did some worx on it. 13 d. And do you recall some -work ever being done by !* a Dr. Arthur Danger, who was nffiliateu with Mount .Sinai o. 13 hospital, as far as analysing that fiber' 1 a. i I'tr.c. ilecsii u ring ci b;ll. 17 (At this time DERUEHL Deposition Exhibit lo 45 was marked for identification by the 19 Court Reporter.) SO DY I1R. DROWNSClSi: 21 Q. 1 am going show show you a document 'which the 22 reporter nas marked as Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 45 and ' i just ask, if you take .i moment, you don't have to read the / 24 whole tning but just look it over. e5 MR. JQdES: For the record, I would KIRBY A.. KENNEDY & A.J.JdCI ATE.N i6i2) 922-1033 1 object to the exhibit on the grounds that it contains 2 highlighting by Counsel. i MR. BROWNSOU: You are right, it does 4 contain highlighting. (At this time a brief recess was taken.) BY MR. BROWNSON: Q. Doctor, let's go back on the record here. I have shown you what has been marked as Dernehl Exhibit 45 and you have now had a cnunce to review that briefly, is 10 that rignt? 11 A. Right. 12 C. Do you recognize any or Lho -mtiiovs of that 1J particular article? i -* ;v. 1401 X uO*l u 15 Q. Longer, Wolff, Rohl andaeiikofc--' i sJ i. a o 11 ioff. 17 U. Vhat' s tno sane Dr. Jeiikoff you we r s speaking 16 of before? I'J a. fh.it' s right. , 20 b. Do you recognise the publication? 'Phis wns JL puoiisned m the Journal of Toxicology and Environmental 22 health. tnat jouririx? x _> MR. LAURA: Arc you asking if ha recall: l-ill. LROdibj'Od: Just tin: journ-.J , r.igh'-.. TTTkIJY "\T Ivi'jfJNEDY v 'i.i'JiiC IA'l'EJ ' >0-L2; r.'.2~ljrSj 1 A. No. My recollection is that this is a journal 2 that Selikoff and some of his people started and I don't -3 think we ever subscribed to that. 4 0. Do you know if you have ev,er seen the journal' 5 A. I don't think so. 6 Q. Now, in this particular article, which was 7 published in 1978, there is some -- b MR. JONES: For the record, why don't 9 you read the name of the article? 10 ' MR. BROWNSOH: The name of the article 11 is, "Variation of Properties of Chrysot i 1;; asbestos 12 jubjeeteu to Milling." i J BY MR. BROVINSON: C 14 0. And in this particul -ti .rtiolo there is a 1 j study being done of Union -Jarbide: Cnlridis AG 144 fiber, 1 6 biu you ovi-j ;iiu- lOjercnce in nor..'? 17 A. 1 3aw that. lb U* That's ut Page 1 1975. First of nil, do you iy know what Calridia RG 144 fiber is? 20 A. 1 do not. 21 'J It's described in the article as chrysotiie. 22 Does that seem right to you? 2 i A. If they describe it as chrysotile, 1 assume it's chrysotilj. Z J J. :iuv,: you r:Vt_-r hence of this p:.rt iculnr study Klltb? KENNEDY Sc AndOCIATEd to 12) 122-1955 which is described in this article, Exhibit 45? A. do, I have not. Q. Do you know who-commissioned that study7 A. I have no idea. i Q. And do you know if Union Carbide ever commissioned studies similar to that where Calidria asbestos fiber was analyzed for its toxicity7 MR. JONES: You said commissioned7 MR. BROWNSON: Yes. A*. Was analyzed for its toxicity, yes, we did some work ut Mellon. U. other chan studies at Mellon, do you know of any otner studies that Union Carbide commissioned on that topic7 ,v dot that I recall. C Are you aware of any other studies that anyor has aoruj, whether they were commissioned by Union Carbide or not, on the toxicity of the Calridio fiber? A. Culridia fiber, no. 0. Now, you mentioned the Mellon study and I wan to show you next a document that's been narked as Dcrnohl Deposition Exhibit 7 and it's entitled "Mellon Institute, bpcciai Report, The Fibrogonlc Potential of Asbestos / Products via I.nuraporitohaal Injection in Guinea Pigs, '.Vic j:iJ Rabbits, " .aid ask you to look at that one. ""KTTTrr? TT hu.-kJ el> r I !\\ i EOC1ATE 1.012) )'>.?.- b),;>rJ 1 Dr. Dernuhi, I v/ould like to ask you some 2 questions about this particular document, which is i Deposition Exhibit 7. If you look at the cover page, first_ 4 of all, this appears to be a report by ithe Mellon Institute, 5 xs that right? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Is this the report that you just referred to 3 about the study about the toxicity of the Calridin asbestos7 9 A. Yes. iU Cs*. And what is the date of it? 11 A. 1965. x2 Q. And this was study done by Mv1Ion Institute ir personnel who were Union Carbide employees, is tn~.c right-' .c** /i xigut. id b. An- it indicates on we b-ek -hat you rac . ived io it appears like four copies of this. If you go to the very 1 / last page it snows Uie distribution list. ' 13 a. Uh-huh. 19 Q. Would you agree with me that based upon what 20 it says there tuat you, in fact, received four copies of 2j. this report? 22 A. Yes. 2 0. Do you know of any other studios donv V.y the 24 iiaiion institute done on tlio toxicity of. Culiuria asbestos 2 j ocher than the one you .ir-e looking at, Deposition Exhibit 77 .IIXDY .V.. KENNEDY L -ADUOCJ .Yi'E'J i A.. That, I believe, is the only one I can recall. 2 Q. Do you remember why that study was done? 3 A. Yes. 4 0. And why was that? 5 ' A. The current knowledge in the middle and early 6 '60s when this was done held that the fibers that were 7 active in causing asbestosis were the long fibers and that 8 was the reason why the air sampling standard ?t that time 3 limited the counting to fibers of ten microns or longer 10 because it was felt that these were the fibers that were of ii significance and that you had to be protected against. 12 Sometime about this time there developed information that 13 there was a form of silicosis, vniclt is a disease not 14 widely different from asbestosis, that chore was t form of. i 3 silicosis 'Viucii was rapidly rata i and was produced by ultra 16 fine particles of uiiic... II was first observed in the i.7 mining process somewhere in the United States where, for 1 o reasons unknown, a group of miners started working in an 19 area of nigh purity quartz and they developed a very 2d rapidly progressiva and very rapidly fatal silicosis, which el was something totally unknown before. 22 Shortly after that in Germany there wen some 2 j work cone with a ultra fine silica o* owcl :r, I believe itf 24 'ad -- went by tilt name of uegusa silica, which was a m:r o eo line silica powder and wnieni oioiucee. the seme sort o.C .1 A. KJJUN'SuY A ASSo-JIATGI { a 1. 2 ) 2 2 - !. V j 3 X response in the workers exposed to it as was seen in this 2 group of workers in this country who developed a rapidly 3 progressive and fatal silicosis. Since this involved a 4 scaling down of particle size, we were ,concerned then 8 whether or not the short fiber Calridia asbestos might have 6 a similar reaction in people as did the micro fine silica; 7 in other words, were we going to be faced with a rapidly 8 progressive and possibly rapidly fatal form of asbestosis 9 m people who were overexposed to this very short fiber and 10 very firre fiber type of asbestos that we were getting at li Coalinga. 12 Q. OKay. X k. Which is the rr.-ason way wo asked for these 14 studies and co try to compare the action of these fibers in 1 j animals -s compared to a 3tanclt cd long Cib ,;r or . r_asonably lu long fiber dohns-!ianvxile product. iV u. ao woulu it be fair to say that as a result of 18 your knowledge of hazards with silica you became concerned 19 at some point ip the mid-'60s that the Calridiu asbestos 20 could have similar effects in humans? 21 A. Could be rapidly? 22 O'. Yes. 2 J <\. Rapidly progressiveund rapidlyfatal, yes, wo 24 were concerned.-with that possibility. 23 U. As a result.-of that,you commissioned this MR BY A.. KKWMdDY U AJ.bVCJ Ai'iiS (<>!.2) 92 2-1`>5 3 3 r w 1 study by the Mellon Institute? 2 A. That's correct. J MR. JOivfESi- The study reflected in 4 Exhibit 7. UY MR. BROWNSON: U. Wa3 your concern only for the workers at the 7 King City facility? li A. The concern would be to anybody that was 9 exposed to the material, the workers at the King City 10 facility certainly but anybody else who handled the 11 material likewise. *. 2 Q. Would that include workers at c*uecomet plants who are handling tne material'* A. G-ruumJy. i. D t;. \r - you f iQuiar with a gentleman by the no mo 1 o "of Robert J. Wooiecyv 17 A. Rooert G. -/ool-ory? id 0. W-o-o-l-c-r-y. id A. Mo, I am afraid not. Mot at this stage. i* 20 0. He at one time was a group leader of product 2 L development and technical services at the mining and" metalc 22 division of Union Carbide in Tuxedo, il'iw York. 2~ A. .i may have head contact with him, but that / f was 24 so long ago tn.at 1 wouldn't remember it. 2a v. I -wont co show you what has been mark )*! as KJReY A. KEriNEbY h A ' (yd. 2) J22 -1 'Jlk f A I' EM  *>* -m zZZ r*.r.v 1 Uernahi Deposition Exhibit 1 and ask you this question only, 2 is this <i publication put out by the Union Carbide > Corporation? 4 MR. HARVARD: What was the exhibit 5 number? u MR. 3ROWNSON: Exhibit 1. 7 MR. JONES: For the record, the document 8 is entitled, "The Effects of Chrysotile Asbestos Additions 9 to Celiulosic Paper" by Robert G. Woolery. 10 .A. Well, this was a paper apparently prepared by 11 Robert G. Woolery, but what happened to the document I an 12 sure i don't know. . 1J 14 15 Know. MR. GOLDBERG: Wh.t is the dice on that" THE 'WITNESS: There is no date that I this point in Lima it h.*u not been accepted for lo publxcatioa. This .is apparently a copy that ne kept of 17 something he did submit tor publication which may or may '' Id nor have been puoiishod. i0 dY MR. BROWNSON-: 20 J. You have no idea if this was sent to customers, 21 however? A. If it was published, interested customers might be provided with a reprint of the paper. , j. Well -- 25 A. I don't know that thet happened. I am sicre'.y iUALY A. KENNEDY L -YsdnOU.L \"'EG laid) ..*22- i "55 1 talking of a possibility. 2 Q. In this case, this particular report did reach 3 Conwed Corporation, v/ho was a customer of Union Carbide. 4 Does that indicate to you whether it wo^ published or not' 5' MR. JONBS: I will object to that. 6 A. It suggests that it was published. Carbide 7 itself might have prepared a number of those documents for 8 submission to customers, I don't know about that. 9 Q. Now, was there any policy at Union Carbide in 10 che 1960.3 that technical reports concerning asbestos which 11 were sent to customers be reviewed by the medical 12 u-.-par taunt? X S A. Not all of them. 14 0. So wouid it be possible for someone suen -as 1 5 Mr. ><oolcry to issue a technical report suen as .exhibit 1 lo and ic not be reviewed by the raeuical Jepartrnent7 r 7 mil. JOiiSJz 1 am going to object to the lo chcracterisucion of the exhibit is .v technical report. Go 19 attend unu answer. i 20 A. If the publication made any reference to 21 naalth problems associated with the product then it-would V h.ave been reviewed by somebody in the medical department, 2^i if it was just a technical report we would not review i,t. t 4 Cl. was there evtr a policy instituted ic Union Carbide taut reports to customers about the use of asbestos !. i koY A.. a'..i,11 dba ' \ A *0>J / Ai'B:> v 612 ) V22-L'?*:> i be reviewed by the medical clopar twent? ' 2 A. Not that X know of. 3 Q. das there ever,a policy at Union Carbide that 4 reports to customers about the asbestos contained 5 statements about health? i> MR. LAURA: Rephrase that. 7 BY ilR. 3R0WN30N: 6 Q. Was there ever a policy at Union Carbide 9 Corporation that reports sent to customers by Union Carbide lu must contain a statement about the health effects of li asbestos? X 2! A. Thera was no such policy, no. 13 w X ain yoin-j to show you wha t has e ven marked as 14 exhibit 2 -.he ask you i r Lais is a report issued or 15 document issued oy Union Carbiue? io .iR. JoliLJ; i`or the record, the document 17 is ericit^ea "Properties of Asbestos Suitable for Use' in 1 X o Ceiiuiosic Paper" by A. d. ikauitaan. 19 A. It says chat it was issued by Union Carbide, 1 20 so a presume it was. i don't know Neumann and I have not 21 seen tne documcnc. ' 22 Q. Do you know if this document was reviewed by 22 the Union Carbide medical department before it was issued'* id A. i ruv-_* no idea. do 2. Tne next tiling I want to show you is ~ is; idiY A. KBUhddY i . a 'i C> 1 ? ) 922-1237 iat;:s i document marked as Dernehl Deposition Exhibit Number 4, and 2 ask that you first look at that. 3 MR. JONES-: For the record, as has been _ 4 noted before in other depositions, I v/ill object to the 5 annotations on the coj>y. 6 MR. BROWNSON: That document was 7 produced to us with those annotations. a (At this time a discussion was held off 9 r.he record.) 10 BY MR. BROWNSON: 11 Q. Doctor, is this a copy of a document entitled 12 "Asbestos Toxicology Report" and it has your name at the end of it? 14 A. Right. id j. It also has the name of Dr. X. 3. Umo? 10 A. Right. i 7 W In chat the same Dr. Lane we were taikirig 16 about before? 13 A Yes. i 20 0. Wore you the author of this'3 21 A. I probably wrote part of it and Lane probably 22 wrote part of it too. 23 Q. Do you remember writing it? , 24 A. I-doubt it. 2j Do you recall writing any toxicology reports iUrs* A. .KbVTITSJUY' 4 adJODlAJ':;:! ' (Li 2) D22-1.V35 " <1 about asbestos? ' 2 A. Do I specifically recall? The answer is no. 3 Did I write them? 1 am sure I did. V 4 Q. You don't deny, for example, that you wrote 5 this particular one. Exhibit 4? V 6 A. No, I don't deny that I had a hand in writing 7 that. 6 Q. You don't know whose writing these handwritten y notes are, do you, on Exhibit 4? 10 HR. BROWNSON: Are those yours-* 11 MR. POLK: It might be. 12 THE WITNESS: Not mine. 13 MR. BR0WU30N: Is tnat yours? j.** .-!rv . POLK: Ye 3 13 BROWNSON: Now .-/o know './hose 17 BY AR. BfU/.-MSON: lb Q. We nave been told in prior depositions by 1*> Union Carbide employees that this particular Asbestos 2U Toxicology Report was updated from time to time. Do you 21 remember doing that? ` 22 A. Jpecificuiiy, no. C. Does that sound like it's something that could t w i nave occurred'^. 23 <1. i'haL's a logical procedure. r AIR2Y A, KENNEDY U -AidOCIATEi: " ' jo:?.) D22-i'i33 ' i Q Do you know wliers we would find today copies 2 of the different versions of this asbestos toxicology j report if it was updated? 4 A. I have no idea. S ' Q. While you were at Union Carbide it the medical G department until *79 where would you file these asbestos 7 toxicology reports? b A. They would be filed in our toxicology files under asbestos. iG Q. Did you nave a particular drawer or file 11 marked asbestos? 12 A. Wo hid folders marked asbestos. jk. j U What sorts of mater Lais wou iu you keep in r 4 those folders? i G A. AnyLhmg tii_u came to our mind about asbestos, 16 chat came to our hand about asbestos, correspondence, 1 7 toxicology studies, anything wo picked up in che literature id tnac was of interest if we felt we wanted to keep there. i'j ti. Did you maintain tint file o/er che years? ' 20 A. Yes. > 4# ^ Q. i/cuid you ever tnrow things out of it^ ' 22 a. I doubt it. 2 J Q. Do you know if it's still inn jretained today? 24 A. I have no idea. z j d. Jo you know, who woU 11 hav. custody or control UL.ldY a. AbbUli'dY d n::kr;d [\Ykk ' ' in.i.lj j 2 2- I .) `i 5 rpe + 's~Z '~r c :::::: Mf 1? '////: of such files today? 2 A. To the best of my knowledge, when I left New 3 York all of those files were put in a box and they 'were _ 4 shipped somewhere, down to West Virginia, I believe. What 5 they did, whether they kept all of that stuff in West o Virginia or simply kept the chemicals part, I don't know. 7 Q. Now, in the second paragraph of Exhibit 4, the a Asbestos Toxicology Report, there is a statement, "It is 9 believed by most authorities that those cases -- " and they 10 ire talking about, cases of cancers, " -- hjvs boon 11 associated with exposure significantly exceeding th- i 2 threshoid limit value." Do you see chat particular 1-. sentence? 14 A. Yes. id 4 bo you know who the authoriti os arc civic vto lb referred to there as "most author i t i vs" '> 17 A. i think that is t statement that is Lifted ia from tne general literature .^nd raaLly does not mention any x9 specific names... 20 Q. Well, let me back up a little bit. Do you 21 know when tins Asbestos Toxicology Report was published, 22 Exhibit 4? A. I do not. L am surprised that it does uoji 2`J have a date on.it. ordinarily we dated those things. 4 U. i am going to snow you a document '.narked ' ivliidy a.. KENNEDY K AhSOdiv v~ " iul2) D22-iDe!> 1 Dernehi Deposition ijxnibit 32, which is a memorandum of 2 January 12, 1965, which refers to the report and ask you if 3 that gives you a point of reference to data the report? .. 4 MR. LAURA: I object to that 5 characterization as it refers to that report. It refers to 6 a report. l MR. POLK: Off the the record. 3 (At this time a discussion was held off y the record.) 10 BY MR. BROWN0ON: ( Q. Doctor, do you believe that this memorandum, i winch you arc looking at which is Exhibit 32, does tbit > heap you data the Asbestos Toxicology Report that v/o hive 1-* just oeen referring to? */ A. I would suggest that wo probably prepared it j-o iu 1964. 17 Q. Mow, with that knowledge, lot's go back to chi id Asbestos Toxicology Report, does that help you determine 13 who those authorities ire that said that cases of cancer i 20 have been associated -with exposure significantly exceeding 21 the threshold limit value? .. ' 22 A. Jot really. 2 J Q. But is it your testimony that that statement 24 is based upon a review of the mod.ic.il Literature at too 2 1 C i l it, ? . * I .A a.i x A. a ! I'.1 u I',l/Y 0 . I'.1'..' ,i /{i wS {uu) 4.22-1933 1 That's right 2 Q. Gan you give us any specific articles or 3 references or texts? 4 A. Wot any more. n 5 Q. Wow, on the third paragraph of the Asbestos -ii o Toxicology Report you are talking about waste control 7 asbestos dust exposure. Do you see that? 8 A. Yes. Q. And one of the thingsthat you talk about is 10 "wet processes where possible". What Jo you mean by that"* 11 A. 'Well, if you handle the asbestos in a water 12 slurry or with the fibers thoroughly ./-'teed with water, 1 J there is no dust and there is tio r-loanable -way that you i* 14 can expect the fiber to enter the body. 1 Li W and would you consid-e: -a paper making 1 o operation to be a wet system? 17 n. Yes. lb Q. But wouiuyou agree with me that in i paper ly making operation or a wot system there is some process at 20 the bcijining where the fiber has to be dumped into the wet 21 system where it would release dust? > < :*iR. J0WC5: I you know. 23 -V. Yes we know that to be true. Arid 1 know, the. t .4 Jurbida tried to handle.- --- to reduce the amount of Justing 25 that occ u c c e-d a t such a time by pelJ -iiizing the product .to .\iii3Y A.. Ai'. (012 tl) i >< A-- * >.iOe i i \ i. ..j. > 2.1 - L 0 5 :> 1 that it wasn't just loose fibers in a bag, which is the way 2 it was originally sold. But the product was palletised so J when you duiaped you had much less dust md your local 4 exhaust ventilation at the point of dumping more readily 5 picked up and carried away the dust. 6 Q. Would you agree, however, that even the i palletized asbestos did create some dust as it was being a dumped into the wet process in a paper making operation? A. I think very probably it did, yes. 10 si* 'Would you also agree that even the pelletized 11 asbestos would create dust during delivery and unloading if 12 bags were broken or that sort of thing? ci 14 A. Certainly. j. Wou-rd you -.iso aiir.'j that in a paper making 15 operation where you h.ivo a wet system, after that uroduc- comes out j'i tnu dryer -nc; is new La pooor board form i 7 tr.ot you would get dust as it's cut and drilled and ground ' i.O nit! those sort of things7 IV* . elR. JCdjuS: I will object on the basis l 2u of foundation. A. hot to my knowledgewhatsoever, 22 w. have you -ever observed a paper making operation using the Calridia asbestos? 24 A. Mo, l have not. , Do you know, of unv Union Carnide customer a who ~ M2UX' a . ' ntkJDKDY 't. AdoOCI AVD.i ~ (wi.2; D2 2-1. ei'j I had such operations? ' 2 A. I know that Calridia asbestos was sold to 3 certain customers for that purpose but I do not know who 4 the customers were. a 5 Q. Have you ever heard of the Conwed Corporation? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Never visited their plant at Cloquet, 8 Minnesota? 9 A. No. 10 <*>. And I take it then you weren't aware that it ii was a manufacturer of ceiling tire? xz A. No. 13 Q. Among other things' 14 rt. do. 13 w. .ouid you agree with m* that .o of the date 10 the Asbestos Toxicology Report was written, why don't you 17 look at it ay-a in, the recommendations that you made to id control uust were to use a closed flow system, a wot r9 process, ideyu.xte ventilation and pelletizing of the 20 asbestos? I am getting that ail out of Paragraph 3 there. xx Mil. JONES: Look at it again. 22 A. "Closed flow systems, wot processes wer 2 _ possible, and adequate exhaust ventilation where openirigs 24 m tho system arc- necessary." X .IR. LA-URA: Let the record reflect tint* 1 I i rUJY .a. RNNUliDY a AJiiOC L :V.'LJ 1 i; y22-.LO-^ i the Doctor was reading from his report. 2 A. Than we also recommend the use of respirators. J Q. fr/here do you see that on there? 4 A. It says, "Where satisfactory containment to 5 stay within the threshold limit value is impractical or 6 impossible, efficient and reliable respirators are 7 available for the protection of employees." 8 Q. Now, would you agree with me, however, that 9 the recommendations made by you in the Asbestos Toxicology 10 Report are. Number 1, a closed flow system? i 1 HR. JONES: I tra going to obj ct to tno 12 form of the question first in the sense that ae did not ij draft it by himseii. .Seconu, that wn.au r'cnenda t ions the 14 document makes are in Lne document itself. Yon can go x 5 .head and answer. XU A. well, 1 .agree to what is in this paragraph. 17 0. Paragraph J of the toxicology report' x o A. Certaxnly. I think chat covers the thing vary 19 practically and it is state of the art protection of that > 20 day and time. 21 Q. One of the citings listed in Paragraph > is the 22 statement, "in paper manufacturing, it would be desirable 2o to know the dust concentrations where the ..sbastos is , t 24 uumpeu from bays into the pulp slurry." Do yon see that' z. j A Yes. \ K `a T7T7 i (pi. 2/ J 2 2-!/)b'j Vhf * ~< \..s 1 2. Why would that bo desirable to' know7 2 A. because that's the place where a person might ' be exposed where the product is removed from its protective 4 bag covering as used in shipping and itjigets exposed to the 5 outside air and allows the escape of fibers to the outside b air. 1 Q. Would that be true with the pelletized 3 asbestos as well as the open fiber? 9 A. We are talking about pelletized fiber here. 10 O; And it also goes on to say, "Ccncentrations 11 snouxd also be determined where dusting occurs in finishing .* 12 produces." Do you see that? 13 A. I see that. 14 Q. 1 take it from that statement '.hit it was 15 recognized that once che pi oduct comes out of the wet lb system and as in the finishing stage, you can net Just 17 there, is that right? Is chat wh-.it wo are talking about l<i there? 19 A. That is what the statement implies, and I 20 assume at the time we wrote this we were told that this 21 would occur. ' 22 d. Jew, do you know if any tests were ion: by 23 Union Carbide to determine what the dust concentrations, t were at cue point that pellets wore dumped from bags into thu pulp slurry? 7 I'.iiuiv n.. hh/gj.iuV a associate; ` ' (hi?) 022-1950 i A. Union Carbide did not do that kind" of testing. 2 That would be the responsibility of the user. j Q. Did Union Carbide ever tell customers or users 4 that they should do that testing? , 5 A. Did it right here. 6 Q. You are saying thatParagraph 3 of the 7 asbestos toxicology report tells customers to do that? 3 A. That's right. 9 Q. Did Union Carbide ever do any testing to 10 determine what concentrations of dust were in finishing 11 products in the paper industry? 12 A. That was the responsibilityof the customer. iJ Union Carbide did not do costing in the customer's plant. L4 Q. Well, if the eviaenco in this case shows that. Id Union Carbide uni no testing at the Conwod plant, would 16 that surprise you? . 17 A. If they dia, I aidn't know about it and I io would be surprised if they did. 19 - iiR. JOWES s Your questions were talking i 20 about at the finished product end? 2* MR. 3RGWWS0N: My last question 'was 22 anywnere in tne plant. I just said "at the plant. / ^ * MR. JOillES: I just want to make sure tint * A "i the Doctor understood that. Aj . A. Well, it was our policy not i.o do testing at r^ !" ~ i a.'.i'i TT, i\UDiJi-bV idi.'ioCi.W:vj lgj.2) h22-iV.'j'j ~~ "" ' 1 cnu customer's plant. That was the responsibility of the 2 customer. If a Carbide person came in and did sampling in a the Conwed plant I would be very much surprised. 4 Q. Would you be surprised toihear that sampling b was done by Union Carbide at the point where the bags were o dumped into the pulp slurry? / A. i would be surprised to find out that Union b Carbide people did that, yes. y Q. Would you also be surprised to find cut that 10 sampling and tasting were done by Union Carbide at the 11 point where tne products wore being finished? 12 A. Yes, L would be surprised to 'near that. j. j Q. wow, look at C*...ge 2 of tne Asbestos Toxicology 1* Report. it vuso .ys that, "?r j-oraployment and r>cr iodic i. J physical examination of workers are desirable.". Do you see lb th..c? 17 a. Yes. 1 ii w Ana then it goes on to say, "These should l') include chesc X-rays." Do you know why this particular I 20 statement was made in che Asbestos Toxicology Ho port9 '.'/hat 21 was the purpose of putting it in there? .' A. Well, it's known chat breathing excessive 23 quantities of asbestos will produce changes within the,lung sa -hat show up o.n X-ray. 2 3 ... was it also, known 'by you or l iu Union Carbide ' ' XlilUi A. XX.'JijUU'/ ^ AJ.'JOC.M.WUS '' ' v 0-J 2) y22-li35 ~ ~ medical department at the time this Asbestos Toxicology Report was written that mesothelioma could be caused by exposure to asbestos? , A. I cun not sure it was known at the time that this was in here, altnough in the earlier paragraph up here they talked about increase in the incidents of cancerous tumors, especially of the lung. G. Would you agree with me that mesothelioma is a cancerous tumor of the lining of the lung' A. Thu-c's right, I would agree with that. Q. Let's move on to another exhibit. MR. GOLDBERG: Before you do that, you migtic Wunt eo review the tim.*. HR. BRGWHSON: It's five to 12:00. OR. JGMG3; Why don't we break now for ^3 minutes for lunch. \Ac this tine a lunch recess '.'as taken.) BY MR. BROWOSGN: G. Dr- Dernahl, the next thing I './ant to show you is what's been marked as Dernohl Exhibit 5, and Dernehi L'xhioit 3 is a report by Doctor I. C. Sayers in England and with Union Carbide U.X. Limited. I wilL show it to you. wiii ask you, first of all, have you ever seen that report before I hvc shown it to you right now? A. I x daily' do- not remember Lae ; ?po::t. x do hi Kdi TTI fO.iliw'dDY u '.\0d0i. A l'ko ' (old) 322-1 Jl>[> --' .'3r c ii :::::::: :::::: 1 rewviiube-r the request for analytical assistance from Union 2 Carbide. 3 Q. Nov/ -- 4 A. It's probable that I did ,3ce the report since 5 I recollect that part about the analytical assistance. 0 Q. What request for analytical assistance are you 7 speaking of? 3 A. Let's see if I can find it back here in the y text. This would be on Page 15. iu Q That's Paragraph 5.0 entitled "Kcquast for il Analytical Assistance." a. leS . ii ii. ./nut uJ you remember .iboul th it .request? i* a. Wall, my recollection is that they wanted i i Cc.rbi.do to use some analysis to d .'lp iu quant l L at i vely 16 uuiine the parameters eo be used in -- par.uact ers of th : i 7 fibers that were co be used in testing. ifl .nd >viio is tru-they that was making that ry request., was tuac Dr. Timbrcll? 1 20 a. 1 thin* it was probably -- 2 L Or L)r. Jayers? ' 22 A. i thin* it was probably a request of tJICC. ' 2.i tnink that they wanted help in defining this batter. ,Now, 24 without z-eauing this line-by-line 1 couldn't toll you 25 specifically ;/:tioh individual requested it. . A. KtdiviJiJY a h hr)C). AT:j> ` "( o L'2 > `122-1 755  *U.'sI f. 0r 1 or. Who is UiCC? 2 A. That was the organization that was being set 3 up to determine the characteristics of the fibers that werG_ 4 to be used in a series of tests to determine the effects of 5 asbestos in animals, animal experimentation. 6 Q. Who was setting up this UICC, I guess, is what 7 I am wondering? A. The international organization. 9 0. Was Union Carbide involved with it7 10 A. I chink it was a European organization. Union i l Carbide would have been involved only through the British 12 organization. . U Wt.s the Britis.u organization Union Carbide, U. 14 K. Li la iced? 13 A. Probably, yes. io 2. i!io.t ii.auie is on the first page of the Layers1 i 7 report and, r guess, mat's why I asked the question. You lt> woulun't disagree? id rV Ho-. 20 Q * Do you know Dr. I. C. Layers? 21 A. I don't know him, no. . )) Q. riav > you ever heard of him? A. I don't knew him. I haven't heard of him,, otue^ than what r wouia haves gotten from this report. 25 3. You told ustoday that reports about . ~ ' InTuEY KZ i\i.h 11bY a id.ajci,vf f't> ' {212) 922-1ndd ~ .'iuui ~'rr -3e 'M s' industrial hygiene or toxicology froni Union Carbide 2 overseas subsidiaries would be routed to your department7 3 A. yes. 4 Q. Would that be true with this report as well, 5 exhibit -- 6 Mil. HARVARD: Is this Exhibit 77 A. Exhibit 5. Q. I cake that back. Exhibit 5. 9 A. 1 think, as a matter of fact, we just would 10 have been sort or on the fringes of this. This would bn a 11 request to go to the management people, since it involved 12 commitment of laboratory facilities, people aid the i3 finances that were involved end medical weal a not h ' la involved in that part ct it. Q. i3uc it, nevertheless, <:ont iins numerous toxicology mid industrial nygiene conclusions from England, 17 ami I am assuming chat? lo A. It's possible. 19 Q. As. ouch it would have come to your attention7 2u ;1R. JOliES: Let me object to the 21 testimony of Counsel characterizing the document. Co ahead 22 and answer it. Doctor. 2J A. i nave stated that the only thing that I ,, 14 rsuember about.- this document was a request for -- was - the 13 oniy thing that makes iae; think 1 saw this doeuwont is. I dlKLSY A. KLUdEDY u -.v!-3DC L Vi'l'vi ' l Ci l >) a 2 2 - i.3 3 1 remember the request for support of the analytical studios. 2 Q. Well, would you agree -- 3 A. The rest of the document I do not remember 4 seeing. , 5 Q. Would you agree with me that this document 6 discusses toxicology issues concerning Onion Carbide 7 asbestos at the British subsidiary? o A. without reading the whole document I couldn't agree to that, no. 10 w. Well, let's look at Page 4, Paragraph i.O, the 11 introduction reads, "Union Carbide U.U. Limited has been x 2 promoting the* sale of Coaiinga asbestos for just over two c 1J years. During this tiwe, the public has baoorae increasingly aware of the eonsi-verable nealth risks la associated with the use of this muterin 1. do f ir, over 20 X'J potent rax cus tamers. huve raised the .issue mci have 17 requested an assurance that Carbine's material will not be Xb a source of ilunyai to tnoir employees." Low, -would you 10 agree that those statements raise industrial hygiene and 1 20 toxicology issues about the use of Union Carbide asbestos 21 in England? 22 ;1R. JJL2S: Object again to the form of the question. The foundation is not sot. Unless you rjive mm a cn*nea to read the*' entire document h ; can't . tiswer tno question. . *\J. hhi . iji ' V 20/ *\...:h 2~Y"::h 1 <> L 2 ) d22-I 0::>-3 1 i'IR. 3ROWNSON: I am asking the question 2 based upon the statements I just read. 3 MR. JONES: Based upon two isolated 4 statements from the document? n MR. 3R0WNS0N: Yes. 6 HR. JONES: Same objection. 7 A. Well, apparently this first paragraph " .iv -t 8 indicates that customers in England raised some questions y about the hazards of asbestos and it further follows in the 10 next paragraph to say that some of these concerns were ii answered by materials sent from the New York office ind die 12 Asbestos Toxicology Report, which you showed mo ear Her, ij and that chase reports had gone part way m nil_viiting i4 some of the concerns chat existed. A3 Q '.veil, based upon the three paragraphs ;-nti11 ed x o "Introduction" mat. we nave just looked at on Pice 4 of 24 17 of this report, wouldn't you agree with mo that this i.8 discusses industrial hygiene and toxicology issues'' iy :iR. JONES: Again, same objection, 20 dharacterization oil the document which tha witness did not write, the document speaks for itself. 22 A. Jell, as 1 stated before, on the basis -- r can only say that on the basis of these initial paragraphs 24 it is suggested mat the'subsequent contents of Lais 23 document woula nave something to Sciy about the; hazards KIRBY A- RENWoNY U -AdbOOi aTRo Ui2, V22-LP33 1 associated with the use of asbestos 2 Q. And is that not the type of information which would come to you in the medical department? ___ A. I have already indicated that the only thing that 1 remember about this document is ----- at this time the only thing I remember is the request for support for the 7 analytical studies. I do not recall the rest of the report. a Q. Maybe my question isn't clear. I am not 9 asking you if you remember this particular document, I am 10 asking you isn't this document of the type that would come 11 to your attention bee..use it contains toxicology and 12 industrial heaich issues? 1J \. it would cone to my attention. 14 U* Low, do you know what they r referring to in 1 'j the thiiu paragraph in tn_- nit reduction ./i: arc they say, io "C-r bi-ae' s replies have been b;iseci upon two communications 1 7 j-t by dew York office on larch 22nd 1960, and October 7th, id A 900"? l`J A. i have no idea what they said. 20 w;. Do you have any rocoJ Lection of being informed t 4. * of tne won of hewhousa and Thompson at the London hospital 22 that's talked about in Paragraph 2? 2 j A. Mo, * do not. ,, c'. Do you -ever remember hearing about problems h ai> c.ock workers it: London handling Union Ccrbi l - asbestos. dlkbY A. khwliblJY A. AuaO'JiATIki ' ; :> l 2 ) j 2 A - ] J Li 5 7 X refusing to unload it frora ships? 2 A. I remember hearing about that, yes. 3 Q. Do you know who you heard that frora? 4 A. I heard that by word of mqyth in the course of 5 just general discussions. b Q. And do you know what steps Union Carbide took, 7 if any, to alleviate the fears of those dock workers' `6 A. No, I do not. 9 Q. Will you look on Page 5 of the report? 10 Paragraph 2.2 is entitled "Paper," and I would ask you to ll look at tnat paragraph. !A / A. Yne first parage ap.i' iJ j. .veil, the whole section about the -- Paragraph 14 2.2 urvuL ptpu. . 15 wA. JONEd; dob, to .ivoiu interrupting 10 you later on, would.you accept a continuing objection to 1 7 subsequent diseussions of various paragraphs isolated from a id trio report without giving him an opportunity to read the 19 wnole report? . 20 -ill. BROWN3Oh: Well, I don't like that 21 objection because I am going to have him read each section 22 tnat i ask nira about. 2 J MR. POLK: Counsel, you ,ir i representing 24 by that objection or t he request for a continuing objection 2 u U ti u c c i i i3 witness i i . * 3 not reviewed this report before his \1 dliY A, KilUVlSL/Y .'ASdOCi YVdO \ 612 ) S2 2 -1V 5 u . Cj 1 deposition today, is that correct? 2 MR. JONES: I didn't make any J representation like that. 4 MR. POLK: Well, in ray opinion the 5 objection is not well taken if it's established through 6 this witness's testimony that he has reviewed the report 7 before his deposition today. MR. HARVARD: The witness stated on the 9 record that he would not be in a position to answer what 10 the report says or doesn't say unless na had an opportunity 11 to go through the whole thing a moment ago, -'.nd i think 12 that's foundation for tne objection. That's the extent to j. o which 1 be 1 love t n-_- objection is offered. 14 .iR. BiiOwlISON: '..a have now reached the 13 point wiiare chree wirier ant Union Carbide lawyer <s have made 10 objections ut t.w deposition. i don't mean to cut you guys xV off, but wny uon't one of you make the objectionv 1 ii HR. JONES: Your concern is noted. 19 MR. BROtfUSON: I con'c care if you i' 20 consult or whatever, but we will be here all cay if 2 L everyone is tnmking of objections. . 22 MR. LAURA: Off the record for a second. 2 J iAc this tine a discussion was held off f9 24 tne record.; 2j ii'i ilk. rihOWJSOii; . * " ~ 1.1 Kd i J\. ivlJltNiE.W <7 ..! IOC.. i t ' U-1.2) d22-1 .)liw ~" 1 U. Have you over read this report before now9 2 A. I may "have read the report when it first carat* 3 in my hands, assuming it did. I assume it did. 4 Q. Did you read it in preparation for your 5 deposition today? . :1, 6 A. No. 7 Q. Have you now had a chance to look at Section 8 2.2 entitled "Paper"? A. Yes. 10 riR. JONES; Do you have a response to iny 11 request for a continuing objection? 12 HR. BKOwSSON: Oo ahead, that ' s fine. I ia don't think it's a good objection. X+ Ail. JONES: I cii.ln't expect you to. xl> BY OR. 3I<OWNoON! io 0* xOuLa you .agree with me in Sec Lion 2.2 of the 17 Sayers report Jr. Sayers is ^ascribing concerns raised by IS paper rauKers in England to the use of Union Carbide i y asbestos in cnedr plant? 2U A. Well, in part it's true. It not totally true. 21 2.2.j, for example, will tell. The Tullis people indicate 22 chat their failure to use the material was not so much the 23 dust proposition as it was the fact that there was , t Z i inueterminnnt experimental work I gather on their product. 23 <3* Would you u.greo though that at South-ills, tha mil A.. KENNEDY U -'ASSOC I AT (012) 022-i .'35 i Charles Turner Mill, ana the- 'i'ullis Paper Mill seems to be 2 expressing to Dr. Sayers about the use of Union Carbide J asbestos in their paper mills? _ 4 A. They raise questions about it, yes. 5 Q. Do you know if Union Carbide took any specific 6 steps to answer these questions raised by the paper makers 7 in England? U A. I have no idea. 9 Q. Do you know if Union Carbide ever advised its 10 customers in the United States in the p.aper industry about il tnose conversation from England? 12 A. 1 have no idea. 13 vi. buy don't you go to Page b of the Om/ers 14 report.? Paragraph 3.j is entitled "Licere turo Surveys," ili anti it aciis, "Thise utj made from time to time on the 10 subject of toxicology, r.na a number o mere important 17 u^cicies have been collected." Do you see that reference' l J /*. Uh-huh. 19 Q. Do you xnow who is making the literature i' 20 surveys that they talk about there? 2 .. a. I do not know. 22 Q. Would you agree with me as a general 2a proposition that in trying to Ja-ter.nino the toxicology, of 24 asbestos it would be a good idea to survey the madion! 20 iJ.toi.itur.. on that topic? . '' " j'.. iiY Tii UE'.ifiilbY ' \ul2) D22-lvSL> i. tvTES ~~ i A. i think that we did survey the literature in 2 terms of keeping abreast of the material which came into 3 our hands. We did not specifically initiate a broad survey 4 of all the literature in the world. Vie did try to keep 5 abreast of the literature that came out in the United 6 States on this product. 7 Q. Are you aware of literature which came out in 3 the United States in the 1960s concerning studios done r*t 2 the South African asbestos mines with respect to disease' 10 A. We saw some literature which came out of South ii Africa. x2 Q. Now, 1 am not speaking about Literature id published in South Africa, j. am speaking about literntur 14 published in America concerning the disease m the South 13 African asbestos? iu A. * would s.y chat the only thing tna.t wo saw in 17 that regard were some references tnat were published in la Seiikoff's papers. 19 U. My- next question then, Dr. Dernehl, is did you 20 also see some of the literature published outside of this 21 country about studies of disease rwaong South African 22 asbestos nine workers? 2 a A. We did see an occasional report which ca'wo to 24 our attention., ' 23 U. Did you see.- studies about disease associated . Wilier A. KCdlJdDY .v -.iJdUC (612; e'2 2-1956 1 with Canadian cnrysotilo mine workers? 2 A. Yes, that we did. 3 Q. Do you know if-those were the studies of Dr. 4 J. C. McDonald, the other Dr. McDonald? 5 ' A. I believe they were. 6 U. I will next ask you to go to Paragraph 4.4.2 7 on Page 11 which is entitled "Cause of Disease." In the a quote in that paragraph they refer to cases -- 9 MR. JONES: have you had a chance to 10 read the whole section? 11 THE WITNESS: I have read through the 12 quota. l -I BY MR. BROWN SOU: i-t j. ilia/ referring to cases in Canada, six in 15 number from 1952 to 1954. My question is, are those the L VJ cvises that wo just nunt it-nod that you saw coning out of the J.7 chrysocir-u miners? id A. Tny wore part of them, 19 w. McDonald articles? i 20 A. There ware others besidesmesothelioma. 21 W. Rignt. But does this reference, which-'you 22 naVw just read, the quote appear co talk about some of the 2j oases cited by Dr. McDonald among the Canadian chrysofcjLie 2-1 tuners? . 2 J A. Parc of the casts, yes. ; uindY <V. "AuNnEDY V \C.S. : % v-'.\------------------------ -- {b 12) T2 2-195*5 1 Q. On Pag* lib of the Sayers report,"at Paragraph 2 7.1.1 -- 3 A. All right. 4 Q. They quote from your toxicology report, and b this is a quote we discussed earlier, "In paper o manufacturing, it would be desirable to know the dust 7 concentrations where the asbestos is dumped from bags into t> the pulp slurry." Do you see that quote? , 9 A. Yes. 10 0. Do you know why ic w.s considered desirable to 11 have that information? 12 A. Weil, because if the lust concentrations wore ** v high it would be highLy hazardous areas. If the dust 14 concentrations were lew it would be an area of less concern. la W. then goes on to state chat, "Dr. Taylor X O berieves uidt chore, is core dust produced in opening a 17 paper or plastic bag of asbestos than chore is with a ' lvl conventional hessian sack." Do you see that reference^ 19 A. Yes. 4- \J MU. JOSES: Would you like him to read the whole section then he can talk about it all at cnce7 .1R. UROWNSO'M: Do. 2J MR. JGMZS: Okay. t 24 AY MR. 3 ROWheON1; ' 2a 0. iiave you ov.er heard of such a thing, that ' hi id.VI aTJmITeOY :< v\dSOd: \ I* ^ -- ` W`2) 9 22-!.->rj'i ' ' ^4 1 there is more dust produced in opening a paper sack? 2 A. No, I have not. 3 Q. Is that the first time you have ever heard ___ 4 that statement made? 5 ' A. Well, if I read this report i assume I saw 6 this statement before. I also notice the following 7 statement that, "No satisfactory answer was forthcoming." 3 This was his opinion. 9 Q. They then go on to say two paragraphs later, 10 "It is* recommended that a dust count be made in a region of 11 a freshly opened bag of pelletized and open produces." Do 12 you know if that was ever done? 13 A. I have no way of knowing. 14 Q. Do you know if your medical department ever 15 did such a stucy? 16 A. To tne cest of ir.y knowledge we aid nc-t.. 17 Q. Do you know a Dr. Hilton Lewinsohn? IB a. Lewinsohn, he is the guy with Carbide now? 19 Q. Well, he is, right. 20 A. I have met him once, I think, up in New York. 21 Q. Do you remember when you met nim? . ` 22 A. About 1935. 23 Q. Do you know, was he at Union Cardiac at ,that 24 time? . ' 25 A. I believe he was* yes. KliisY A. KENNEDY ' ASSOCIATES ' .( o 12 ) 922 - i. 5 3 1 Q. Do you know where Dr. Lewinsohn was employed 2 in September of 1975? 3 A. No, I didn't know that. 4 Q. Do you know where he worked before he came to 5 Union Carbide? 6 A. No. He came to Carbide after I left, if he is 7 there now. 8 Q. Do you know where he worked at the time you 9 met him in 1985? Was he at Carbide at that point? 10 A. I can't be certain. I would say he worked at 11 South Charleston. 12 Q. Have you ever heard a reference tc Di. 13 Lewinsohn and his TBA Associates, do you know *nyt that 14 would mean? 15 A. TBA Associates? . 16 MR. JCNhS: R as in boy? 17 MR. BROWNSOH: Yes. 18 A. No. 19 Q. You don't know what that refers to? 20 A. No, I have no idea what that refers to. 21 Q. Do you remember some industrial hygiene 22 studies that were conducted at the Charleston, West 23 Virginia, plant in a couple buildings called buildings 51L 24 and 512 back in 1962 and '63? 25 A. 511 and 512, that would be up in tne research . * .. " K1R3Y A. KENNEDY S. ASSOCIATES '' (-612) 922-lb55 : rvraii' 'v^i -t; - unUunlli; ::::::::::: 1 area,, I_ t_h__i_n__*. Ho, I can't recall what you are talking about. Q. Well, these were particular studies that were, 4 done about dust caused by workers sawing insulation block, 5 I think with a band saw. Counsel. MR. JONES: Object to the testimony by BY MR. BROWNSON: 9 w* Does that help refresh your recollection at 10 all? 11 A. Buildings 5ii or 512 or plant 311 and 5.12? 12 y. It's called plant 511 and 512. 13 a. Okay. '/as, cauc was done at the plant Jovci 14 to dotormini the quantities of oust that ware developed in 15 sawing insulation that was applied to pipes. lo y. Ana do.you remember that particular work that 17 was done i:t connection with that? 13 A. I ]ust know it was dona. 13 Q. Do-you know why it was dona? 20 A. Because we wanted to know how much dust was 2 i produced by the process. 22 t>. Do you know if there had been complaints from 23 workers m those plants about the dust? t, 24 A* I.-don't think there would be any complaints by 25 che workers. I think this was a concern of supervisors in V 612) 322-135a j 1 the industrial nygieno department about the potential 2 hazardous nature of the work. 3 Q. I am going to show you what has been marked as 4 Dernehl Exhibit 24 which is a memo of July 20, 1962. 5 MR. HARVARD: What's the number on that? 6 MR. BR0WN30N: Exhibit 24. 7 BY MR. BR0WNS0N: a Q. The question I am going to ask you is is that 9 a memorandum concerning this study on sawing insulation in 10 Charleston, .Vest Virginia? 11 ilR. POLK: I will object to the form of 12 the question,. The document speaks for itself. . 13 ri Your question was. 14 w. Is that a memorandum concerning the oust, what 15 we have just bean calking about, from sawing insulation at 1 o Charleston, west Virginia'-* 17 A At the Institute plant7 ` 10 . 3* That's the Institute plant7 19 A. Yes. 20 0. How, on that memo on Exhibit 24, it indicates 21 that a copy was sent co you. Do you see that on. the top7 22 xA Yes. 23 Q* J)o you remember receiving it? ,, - 24 A. Bur-:;. 25 Q. The next one L want to show you is Exhibit 2'6 -- ~ ~ .viklii A. KKilNEDY" &" AaJOCi Aid:.; " ' ~ (.612; 922-10 55 1 well, we will go with Exhibit 25, and I will ask you if you 2 have ever seen that before? J. MR. HARVARD: While he is looking at it_ 4 could you stcite for the record what the document is so we 5 cun make our notes now? 6 MR. BROWNSON: That's a memo of December 7 3, 1962 from the medical department at Plant 512 at 6 institute. West Virginia. 9 BY MR. BROWNSOM: 10 Q. Can you tell us what that is, what the 11 document is? 12 A. well, it's a document prepared by the J.-J industrial hygienist at the Institute plant concerning dust problems with thu sawing of .o looks of asbestos-containing 15 insulation ami Johns-Manvii 1 .*' s complaints thic the results r o or our oosorvarious aid not coincide witn observations that 17 tnty nad muuo at their manufacturing plant in ilanvillo, dev/' xd Jersey. He requested that the supervisor of the insulation 19 department and .the industrial hygienist visit the Manvillo i 2u plant to see if we could determine why there was a 2i discrepancy in tne results. . 22 Q. Let me show you what has been narked Exhibit 2 J 26, and ask you if you can tell us what tout is'-' Thetis a nemo or December 4, 1902. 2u A. Hell, in essence this is a letter from the " ' ' RxiiJY ' (5121 `22-1955 ---------~-------------- --- i Medical Director, Dr. Sexton, to his supervisor. Jinx 2 Giambruno, to not send Mr. Peele to Johns-Manvilie to 3 supervise or to study the Johns-Manville report, but that, 4 we were to continue to do a sampling in our plant as the 5 situation indicated. 6 Q. And that shows that a copy was sent to you as 7 well, correct? is A. That's right, information copy. 9 Q. I assume you would have read it when you got 10 it? 11 A. Probably. 12 'J. Exhibit 27, would you tell os wnat that is'* 13 w 2b, please? MR. HARVARDs Could Z see Exhibit bumbo*r 1 i> at. 3ROlvi;SOil; December 4. 10 MR. JONES: For the record, Exhibit 27 jl7 13 .i letter from Sexton to Giambruno dated 23 October 1963. ia ii. Well, in essence this says that he is LJ submitting -- that Dr. Sexton is submitting a report from i JO Mr. Pcale which indicates that two types of 21 usLescoc-containing insulation blocks cannot be processed : 22 with reasonable dust concentrations that one other type cm 2 J w. And is that also by Sexton? ,, 24 A. it's by Dr. Sexton. 23 0. Dr. Sexton of Union Carbide? i\ i k A V A. KiitiMEDV ASSOC LATE.., (0X2) 922-lyjj -'-ST r?r: 1 A. Right. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. The medicaldirector of theInstitute plant. 4 Q. I am now going to show you what hasbeen 5 marked as Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 33 and ask you if you 6 can tell us what that is? 7 MR. JONES: For the record, this is n 8 letter dated June 7, 1967, to Dr. Hall from Dr. Dernehl. 9 Beyond that I would object to the form of the question. 10 The document speaks for itself as to what it is. 11 BY MR. BROWWSON* 12 G. iiave you now had a chance to r . id j t ij 1 did read it. i4 U. Did you review tms document before your jl!> deposition today? X o A. vihich. document? j.7 G. The one you are looking -\t ther lo A. This one? 19 Q. Yes. i 20 A. Yes, I did sac this. 21 U. When did you review it, do you know? ' 22 A. Last night. 2a G. Nov/, is that a lot-er from you of June 7, ,1957, 24 to Dt . Torn daii? . A. Yus, it is..- K.idi* A. Kh'wdduY -V-idUCl.'.Tt:; ' (G922-L)j5 Q. And it indicates in the very first line that you have reviewed Dr. Sayers' report? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Entitled, The "asbestos as a Health Hazard in 5 the U.K."? u A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. Based on that, would you now agree that you a did in fact review the sales reports? 9 A. I indicated before I probably reviewed the iO report, but I don't remember it. ii Q. dow that you sea this latter would you eyre* 12 with me that you did review it? XI J A. 1 uid r eview it. I still don* t remember it. 14 Q. How, in the a -cond paragraph on Paga 1 in 13 jbouc the middle you say. "We therefore i:i ide some lb preliminary studies in which the material. -./3 .injected into 1 / the belly cavity of guinea pigs, rats and rabbits." Are 13 you referring tnere to the Mellon Institute study that we i9 jusc spoKe about <\ little wnile ago? I 20 A. That's correct. ^ i 0. Going then to Page 2, to the second.paragraph, 22 and tile copy is not real good but you speak in that 23 paragraph about tialfway through about the threshold 1.1,51 it 24 value. Do you see that? 2s A. ies. A L lhiY A. KChHEDY i* ;>'.30CiA'tV,:; ' (bi2> 922-1953 7^52 ::::::::::::;: %:::i:W:: ::::::: .WWW :M:::::: :::::: ::::::::::::::: : ui 1 Q. And you stats, "It is probable that the five 2 million particles per cubic foot will not be acceptable for a the prevention of mesothelioma." __ 4 A. Yes. i 5 ` Q. That indicates, I take it, by at least June 7, 6 1967 some research was being done by Union Carbide with 7 respect to mesothelioma? 6 A. Wo. 9 Q. It does not indicate that? 10 A. It does not indicate that at all. This is my lx personal opinion being expressed. 12 Q. Well, it does indicate that as of that date 1J you were aware of the uisease* mesothelioma? 14 .Li. Correct. x5 12 And it also indicates that you questioned as 16 of June 7, lye/, wnttner the then threshold limit value was 17 sufficient to prevent mesothelioma? '' 18 A. I was concerned that it might not be. 19 Q. In face, you were concerned that even one 1 20 million particles per cubic foot might not be enough, is 21 that right? . .' 22 A. That's a possibility. 2 J Q. And that was one-fifth of the threshold 'l/i^mit 24 value in effect that date? A. That's correct. .\x lit'.'/ .\. w/.'li-lUbY ';>SOCi ATih (612 ) 9 2 2 -X'jj r> 1 Q How, do you know it this concern about the 2 threshold limit value not preventing mesothelioma was ever 3 communicated to Union Carbide customers? ._ 4 A. I do not believe that it was communicated' to 5 customers because it had no basis in fact, it was simply a 6 personal opinion at the time. 7 Q. 3ut it was your -- 8 A. It was my concern that this would not be 9 acceptable. lu d. And at that point in time you were -- I had 11 better get the title again, associate meuical director 12 in '61? 13 a. in **4/, y as, i .i.is associate ntedicai director. 14 w. Ona of tne other Union Carbide employees whose x 5 deposition was ^aker. in tms case, dert Barton, described id you as the Union Carbiua toxicological guru. "you Id you 1 / agree with that assessment? J.8 A. I don't know what guru moans, but I was the 19 expert in toxicology. 20 0. `Would it be fair to say that in the Union 21 Carbide company you were tne expert or authority, in- the 22 field of toxicology? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Ana would it be fair to say that your opinions 25 on that subject would carry a good deal of weight: within Aj AiiV A. iS.i.liJbbY l- ''vdSOCi.Vi'Td (v 1:' ) 922- L >'3 5 1 the company? 2 MR. JOiJES: I will object to the form of 3 the question as to asking him to speculate about people's 4 state of mind. Go ahead and answer, ift you can. 5 A. Let's say that I liked to think that my 6 opinions would carry considerable weight. 7 Q. I will show you what has been marked as 6 Dernehl Exhibit 34 and ask you first, is that another y document that you reviewed before the deposition here today? iO A. Go, 1 did not review this. ii Q. Okay. 12 This is one we looked it before. ij I am not sure if we iiu or not, but you might 14 have looked at it over iur.cn. l5 A. The isbistos Toxicology Report, i-O vl 1 ai asking now .bout the letter. 17 A. The letter? lo U. To Frank Dexter. iy . tlR. JOMES: For the record, this is a i 20 latter dated June 15, 1067, to Frank dexter from T. J. Hall 21 with a two page asbestos toxicology report attached to it. 22 A. I don't remember this letter, but I do 23 remember that problems arose with the badly damaged 24 shipments of bags of asbestos ana the refusal of the dock 25 workers to unload those badly damaged shipments. 61 ii T l\Rt i LI ii OY ~i duC I ATa (612) 022-1055 1 Q. And were these badly damaged shipments, the 2 ones over in England? .J A. in England. 4 Q. And these were the dock workers who wouldn't 5 unload' them from ships? 6 A. That's right. 7 Q. And that was because the bags were broken and b they were very dusty? 9 A. Yes. iO (2. Do you remember if that was open fiber or n pallets? i 2 A 1 have no idea. 1 XJ G. Do you remember what type of bags those wara9 x4 Am 1 h-avo no idea. 15 Jo you knew if they vnu a paper begs'-1 1 o 1 have, no idea. l7 The first paragraph of the letter says that id Dr. Dernehl nas followed this area very closely, the area 19 of possible toxicity and carcinogenic properties of 20 asbestos, ivould you a agree with that as of June 13, 19679 21 A. i would say that we had followed it closely, I 22 .-m not sure that I would say very closely. 2 j> 0. And, again, following it closely includes, 2 4 reviewing n-auicul literature on that topic9 25 A. As it came to hand, very closely. It might . 'AlKhY A. AEdbEDY a Vi.-iOCIAThti ' (.oU) 922-1955 ' I have involved going out and searching for 'stuff rather than 2 just keeping abreast of the stuff that was coning to hand. J Q. Can you identify for us what Exhibit 34 isp _ 4 ' MR. JONES: It's already been identified 5 for the record. 6 7 the record MR. 3ROWNSON: I didn't think it was for e> BY MR. BEOWNSGN: 9 Q. Tell us who the author is and wnat the date 10 was. . Li MR. Jul.'ES: That's been clone, 12 iv. This was ipparently written by T. J. 'In 11. j. J Q. Do you Know i'. J. Mali to be Or. Thomas Unll ? A. i'nat wuuiu be my understanding. id C Jk^y. io < And appiii -.-ti'cly it was written to a Me. Frank 17 uexter, who i no not know. 1 o c. Earlier 1 had showed you Exhibit 32, which is i9 a neiQoranduin of January 12, 1965. I will ask you now, does i 20 that exhibit indicate that a copy was sent to .you-5 21 MR. POLK: Did you say January or' July''' 22 MR. BR0WHS01J: January. 2 J A. Yes, 1 saw the Memorandum. , t 24 0. Th.it* s a! 1 1 have ori that. The next exhibit I 2 ti wont to show you is Dernahl Deposition Exhibit 35, and i AliY isl.li.1 doY 5 '.53be>.ATas (512) 922-1955 1 will ask you first, is chat something you reviewed before 2 the deposition today? 3 A. Wo. . 4 Q. Would you look at it now then? 5" MR. JOiJES: For the record, this is a 6 letter dated August 1, 1967, to Frank Dexter, from Thomas 7 Hall. 8 BY MR. BROWN SON: 9 Q. Have you had a chance to review it? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Can you identify for us what that is? 12 MR. JONES: I will object to chat, th i W document speaks for itself. 14 BY MR. BROWUSON: i!> 0. Docs cast document .indicate chat a copy was .16 sent to you? 17 A. . Yes, it does. 18 0. 19 you? i 20 A. And would you agree thatu copy was sent to . Yes, it was. 21 0. The next document I want to show you is 22 Deposition Exhibit 56 and X will first ask you if you 2a reviewed that before your deposition7 2 4 A. No, X did not. , t 25 U. I wiii then.-ask you to take i look at it. ' Ih.heY A.. K2.ti.iKDY i> AhaOCiA'VhJ ' (6.12 j 922-195 5 ~ . ,5 -jL~ri'i " ::: r !' 1 That's a letter of November 30, 1967, to Frank Dexter from 2 Thomas Hall in Brussels. 3 MR. POLK:- Wall, I think, for the record,-- 4 it ought to reflect that there is a second page attached to 5 that exhibit that is not typewritten but in some 6 handwritten form. 7 BY MR. BROWN3ON: b Q. Do you recognize the signature at the bottom 9 of the first page where it says Thomas, the signature of 10 Dr. Thomas Hall? 11 A. It says Thomas Hall below it, so I assume it's 12 iOul Hall. . i .< Q. There is some handwriting on uae Lett rr.argin 14 of that page. Can you toil whose h mewriling that is ? r5 . ^iO, 1 * . 16 i.'. Can you tali us ./'nose initials those are at i / tno bottom of it? ' lb a. 1 have no idea. x J \1. Paragraph 2 of tnis letter there is a sentence, i 20 "Perhaps it would be better to nave- this sort of 2r publication", and they are talking about the Sayers' report, 22 "-- first approved by Carl Dernehl before we finally iigree. " *> j Do you see that? 24 :\. Yes, buc this docs not refer to tiia Say?rs' 25 report really. -' . :\a. . ;L>7 \T KiCni dOf 4 ' vc.,;4Vj f .V; ~ " ' ` (C12J 522-133:; m '~iZ_;;r- -ww- 1 U. Do you know ~> A. It says, "in this report lan passes on a request for permission to publish our data." This is th-* analytical data that should be developed at Niagara Falls, "I woula like your comments on this." u Q. Well, it says that "Ian", and 1 assume that's 7 Ian Sayers, "Passes on the request for permission to d publish our data." Do you know what data that refers to? y A. The data that would be -- wait a minute here 10 now. Belgium to Dexter, Union Carbide. ho, I don't knew u what that data refers to but this must have to do v.'ith son 12 asbestos data developed by Union Carbide Belgium. 1 e Q. well, attached to it is handwritten notes of 14 Dr. Sayers, is tnat right'-* 15 A. Weil, 1 don't know who wrote tno handwritten i o note. . 0. The ratter says ic's Dr. Bayers handwritten notes, is tnat right? . MR. JONES: It speaks for itself. Mil. HARVARD: Are you taking if that's whet the letter says, Bob? .- MR. 3R0WNS0W: Yes. MR. JONES: I don't see it. Can you point out where cn tuo letter? MR. BP.OWNSON: First paragraph eight in* V :kby REUHKDY N ASBOCI AIM V a x JL) 522-1 V j !> 1 the middle 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. Does that indicate -- ._ 4 A. "I am enclosing a copy ofi his handwritten 5 report for your information." All right. So Sayers says, 6 "Chrysotiie fibers, being curved, are less likely to go 7 deep into lungs. Injected chrysotiie does cause cancer in 3 rats, so the fact chat in practice it is less responsible 9 for tumor production is probably due to a greater iO elimination rate as well as it's geome," whatever the hell 11 he means by geoaie. 12 Q. X think it moans geometry but it's out oft. 13 A. That couiu be. 14 id. J.jifSS: .iii it you neve just `.tone is 15 fuaCi the section ujivlwr l it on '* i o . 7Hd 'dlTiJEbS: Yes. 17 A. in otner words, he says that because the Id fibers are curved they are less apt to penetrate deep into 19 tno luag anu, therefore, less apt to cause disease? in the i 20 rung even though Lnose curved fibers, when th?y are 21 injected into the animal, will produce cancers. . ' 22 Q. Did you, at that time in 1967, agree with 23 those statements or conclusions by Dr. -layers7 , 24 A. I- would agree with them now, so I iraaqinc 1 25 did. at that tiia.e. - AT" Ko.ihdDV t-T-^TcITi7? ZTT ' (fl 12 } )22-l)55 c -fjO-J 1 Q. 'Would you also agree that around this same 2 time you were also concerned that in fact the Culridia a asbestos, because it was so fine, had a greater propensity __ 4 to get into the small airways of the lungs than other 5 asbestos fibers? to MR, JONES: Do you understand the 7 question? rf A. 1 don't like the word propensity. Q. Well, how about ability? 10 A'. iiow about possibility? 11 Q. Let mo rephrase the question and you can 12 answer it. Will you agree that you wore concerned at 1. J around this time, I\)o7, that the Duiridia asbestos fibers had a greater possibility oi getting into the small airways 15 of the lungs than other asbestos because they were so short, io so fine? . 17 ifas, i would agree with that. lb Q. in fact, that was the reason that you hud th i 19 toxicology report done by the Mellon Institute in IDGG? 1 20 A. That 'was a part of the reason. 2 L j. hoi/, again, do you recall approving any 22 publication by Dr. Ian Sayers or approving any reports o' ' . Dr. Sayers for publication around 1967' ,* 2*4 A. 1.do not recall any such approval. 0. how, you told us earlier that you did receive KIND* A.- KEt-JL\'El> A NSnOCxaVEJ vCi!2; 922-L'.: 35 1 a copy of his 1967 report. Do you know if that report wets 2 published? 3 A. I have no idea. . 4 Q. Do you know if you approved(that report for 5 publication? - 6 A. I have no idea. 7 Q. Do you know if you would have had to have 3 approved that report for publication? Let me rephrase that 9 vJus your approval required before that report could be 10 published? 11 A. I would say that I wouiu be asked for in 12 opinion as to whether it. should be published, but this iJ opinion was not binbinu uwon win Liier or not it was or v/ns 14 not published. 15 0. do ..cuiu /out role then be as core of a 10 reviewer as opposeu to the final authority as to whether 1 7 it's pubiisned or not' . id a. I think that is a fair way to put it. 19 i Ci. 1 an going to show you `./hat has been narked as 20 Dernehl Deposition Exhibit 3d and ask you, first of all, 21 uia you review that before your deposition? . 22 k. do. ' 2 %> Can you review it and tell us if you know what 24 it is? iik. JObEo: For the record, this is a hi.'.di A. UdhCiibY a .. v`b:h>C l Y"! c -- - -~7rr^;-: :rri ( :::::::: 11 :::::::: g:::m::::;: 'in::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::: W::::l::: iiii; 1 aocument dated April 28, 1967, to D. C. VJiilard from Bert 2 Murray. 3 A. This is a report from Bert Murray, who was an___ 4 industrial hygienist for the South Charleston plant on b studies which were made on employees while they were b installing Kaylo insulation and a recommendation that 7 studies be continued to get more meaningful data. a Q. Do you remember being involved in any way in 9 tnat particular project? iu A. No, I do not. ii Q. On the last sentence of the latter it says, "It 12 would be helpful to schedule --" i am sorry, it talks about . X. J being kept informed of jobs pertaining to cutting, x4 installing ana removing Kaylo in order to be helpful to j. j schedule the .ir sampling cork. does that indicate to you xo that .ixr sampling work was being done at the South x? Ciiarieston plant in MW? ' lb MR. J0MC3: Object to tn2 forn of the iy quescion. Dr. Dernonl has already said that he wasn't 20 involved in cne project. Go ahead and answer, if you can. 21 A. Wall, uy answer would be that studies of this 2 2 type were going on in the three major chemicals pLnnts, ^j Ciiarieston, Institute and ?e:<a3 City and that information - 24 of this type was sent up to my office for information only. C. Mew, were air sampling studies being done back ~" \iRi3Y A. KiiMNKDY x VdaOCl/vTaG (612) 422-19^ ~ ~ X in 1967 at Charleston, Institute and Texas City? 2 A. Charleston, Institute, for sure. Texas City, j I think, cane later. 4 Q. Were they being done at Charleston and 5 Institute in 1967 to see if workers ware being exposed to 6 excessive amounts of asbestos? 7 A. That's correct. 6 Q. And these are Union Carbide employees' y A. Those are Union Carbide employees. 10 Would it be fair to say that by 1967 the Union li Carbide medical department had a concern about it's 12 employees being subjected to excessive amounts of asbestos ii on che 30b? 14 A. Union Carbide had ttuc concern long before Id 1967. lo 0. bo you xnow when it first had that concern' 17 A. The first time we starred using asbestos. id L' Would that be as far back as whin you began in iy 1947? i 2d A. Yes, lh<-iL would be true because when I v/as at 21 tile plant level wo were concerned about the insulators 22 removing insulation and applying insulation and th<* v/ay 2 J cney were doing it and trying to see to it that they ug 2 > uppropi i.ice rgspiiatory-protection while they wore doing 25 the work i\l UdY .1. KkiiMUOY 4 '.b.-oClA i'CU ' (612) 922-i 9 5"> % *** VS! ?Vis?.* ;;:;:;:;:; :::::::::::::::: 1 A. I may have heard it, but I don't recall it. 2 HR. JONES: Vie have been going about an 3 hour and a half, let's take a short break here. 4 (At this time a brief recess was taken.) 5 BY MR. BROWN SON: 6 Q. Doctor, before we took our break we were 7 talking about the International Congress on Occupational Health meeting at Brighton, England in 1975. 9 A. Yes. Was that the International something or. 10 Permanent Commission on Occupational Health? 11 Q. I don't know. But what I wanted to show you 12 was an exhibit marked 39 and ask you to take a look at that .. and see if that helps you at all m r `ceiling anything about that? 15 ?;I<. JOf.'E.'J: Por tne record, tins is n lb memorandum uatcd :3epc_;aoer 29, 1975, from l!. 9. Rhodes to 17 A. u. Byrne, Junior, among others. lb (Ac this time the requested portion of the 19 transcript was read aloud by the Court 20 Reporter.) 21 A. Not really. I seem to recall that there was a 22 meeting of the Permanent Commission and International association on Occupational Health, which was held in ,, 24 ihUjiicon, England, probably at about that time. 1 was .;5 member of ch.it, but i did not go to England. ; lcikly'at; aeknedy *. Y.jJoe'ixm ~ ' i`2 2-i:J5Z i Q And that's because chat insulation contained 2 asbestos? 3 A. That's correct.- 4 Q. One of the things Union Carbide was doing from 5 1047 was taking air sampling and air tests'3 6 A. They were not taking air samples in those 7 early dates. That came later. a Q. Do you know when that began? a A. About the time when we got industrial 10 hygienists in the plant, which would be in the early 'GOs. Xi Q. Do you know when you began to take annual 12 chest X-rays from your workers in the plant? i- A. We started that when we -- about 104.1 ,-r Couth i4 Charleston, and we started iL in 1047 in Texas City, '47 at i 5 institute, and at ail cue other plants it was initiated i C> when the plants started, came about. 17 2. Did you attend the 10th Annual Congress on Id occupational health at Brighton, England in 1075? IV A. do, I did not. t* 20 Q. Do you know if anyonefrom your medical 21 uepartment did? - ' 22 A. iio, nobody did. 2 , '2. Do you know H. 3. Rhodes'3 24 A. ilo, I do not. 2 3 U U'jvor heard.-that name? Audi* A. KISJNC0* '< TiaO'J LATEX ' (gl2; 022-IV 55 >3 * tW -sS*.?, :::: =/ '////// a ::::::::::::::::::: a Wlh W :::::::::::: mu i i:::::,:::::: 1 m, :::: m 1 Q. Do you remember a conclusion coining out of 2 that meeting that the standard of two fibers per CC may be J even too high to prevent mesothelioma*9 4 A. I do not remember that, no. it ' Q. Have you ever heard that said' 6 A. X don't recall whether I ever heard it said ot V not. a Q. Do you know, have you ever heard of a Dr. 9 DLeve Holmes? 10 A. do. 11 Q. Do you know who he is5 12 do. id D* aow, earlier 1 naa asked you some questions 14 about if Jr*ion Carbide aid air testing in customer plants. ib A. /eS. 1 o 0. Do you r.now after the 03HA standard went into 1 7 effect in 1972 if Union Carbide offered that service to its lo cast oilers? 19 a. we uid not. 20 Okay. 21 A. To tnc best of mv knowledge. .' 22 y. Do you know who John L. dyers is-5 tie was t'vs 23 marketing manager for the Calridia asbestos division 'n one 24 time. . 2 b A. * met alylrs a fow - times, yes. i\i LILii A. ACw.-.dDY u A930CiA ` (!_>.! 2 ) 72 i Q. Would you be surprised if in 1074' Mr. Myars 2 was celling customers that he would be happy to take hand J or analyze air samples from their plant for asbestos dust? ^ 4 A. That was Mr. Myers' problem and not mine. It 5 v/as not the type of thing that Union Carbide as such was 6 doing. We did not want to intrude on customer's operations. 7 Q. Do you know if in the 1970s such air sampling 3 was being done by Union Carbide as a marketing tool to 9 alleviate the fears of customers about asbestos dust? 10 A>. Mot that I know of. il MR. BROWNSON: 1 guess that's all the 12 questions 1 have right now. I will 1st Mr. PoLk ask somt. i3 MR. FOLK: The record seculb reflect 14 it's five minutes to i:C0. 15 1o l7 BY chi. POLK: J-VJi-S - D`XA.11 WAT I >U Xu j. Dr. Dernehi, I am going to ask you some i9 questions and they are going to be fairly direct and 2 J uopefuliy you will be able to respond in a fairly succinct 21 way so we can get buck to Minnesota today. I don't want to iz waive .ay right to continue this deposition in th? event, 23 however, i ain'noc able to finis;;. t 2. *T First of oil, i want to tell you ny nano 25 is .lichuei Pun;. 1 represent the Plaintiffs in this oas i. TvTITiY A.. rv^.IddD'Y d TouOWiAThh (o!2) 922-L9!5 c .Tv-.' -ve 1 decondly, I want to establish your agreement with me that 2 you will do your best to respond as succinctly as possible 3 to the questions that I ask you. Will you agree to do thatj^ 4 A. I will try. 5 Q. If there is anything that 1 ask you that you 6 don't understand, please let me know/ and I will be happy to 7 clarify the question. First of all, would you agree with a this general proposition that Union Carbide, as a corporate 9 entity, as far as you know was well aware of hazards 10 associated with asbestos at the time that you arrived in 11 1947? 12 UR. JOUEd: object to the legal 13 characterization "corporate knowledge, " but go ahead :m.i 14 ..nswet. i3 Vh .-re p-.-opie in the corporate .medical lo department that were aware of health hazards from asbestos. i 7 2. xt you know, would you agree with this, that 10 the knowledge possessed by the Union Carbide medical 19 uepartment, as of 1947, went back into trie 1930s7 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Ana 'would you agree that the basis for-'the 22 knowledge that was witnin Union Carbide's possession as of *41< 1947 was based at least in part on review of medical, 2*4 literature? . 21> Yes. i Kih A. KdlsV.'UDY to VJOOCIATCS in: 2) 022~195a u. And would you also agrse that Union Carbide in its medical department as of 1947, had the capability of 3 doing in-depth literature searches? . 4 A. I don't think so. We didm't have time. 5 ' U. Would you agree that at some time subsequent 6 to 1947 Union Carbide had the ability and the resources to 7 do in-depth medical searches, that is medical literature 3 searches? 9 A. Union Carbide used their rielIon fellowship to 10 carry out some in-depth researches on certain products il rather than having this done by the medical department 12 itself. * > XU 3 bet me rephrase it then. Did Union Carbide 14 have the ability -aid resources to draw on outside ib organisations to conuuct m-ueptn xtclital i.i ter a', urn lb seiu'cnei at some time subsequent to 1947 ? 1 7 A. Yes. 10 3. Die Union Carbide's medical department r.c any 19 time nave access to computerized medical literature 20 sear chcs? 21 A. Through Mellon Institute, yes. 22 Q. Now, at v/hut point, in your opinion, 23 subsequent to 1947, did Union Carbide have the ability,and 24 resources to conduct in-depth medical lit-enture .`marches ^ 2 u A. 1 would say.-in the late ' SCs tn.l early '60s A *, Kjj in'i*Jlj l U v\e3 Od.VVJid v ul2) 922 193 3 !5!*SS; C 1 when the rielion Institute staff was expanded to the point 2 that they could put some people on this sort of search. 3 Q. This is almost the same kind of question tha.t_ 4 I asked you earlier but it's a little bit different. Did 3 the knowledge that Union Carbide's medical department had D with reference to asbestos hazards, was that knowledge in 7 1947 solely based on the literature? d A. In 1947, yes. 9 Q. Ana when, in your opinion, was the first time 10 that Union Carbide's medical department had knowledge of 11 asbestos hazards that was not based solely on medical i2 literature? X J A. i can't answer that question because it's x4 impossible to eliminate too -.aouic<i literature source fro'i I 5 other sources of information. Id U ^ *n -i y i / A. Tney are intertwined. id b* 1 understand what you ure saying. Lot ns ask 13 you this. when was the first time, in your opinion, that i 20 the Union Caroide Medical department had information that 2 i they gathered or nad gathered at their direction.concerning 22 tiie hazards of asbestos that were not contained within 2 - medical literature? 2* A. I .would say at the time that we> did the animal 25 studies at Mellon Institute. A. Kf.NMCOY U AhS-AO i A I'M . l a.12) u. In 1966? A. Whatever year it was. Q. Would you agree with this, that Union Carbide gained some knowledge in the early 19fc0s, specifically 1961 and 1962, by virtue of their own in-plant experience in West Virginia? A. What we gained at that time was information on the dust concentrations that were present during certain manufacturing operations and maintenance operations in the plant. Q. Wow, let me ask you this, I have information that indicates that you attended an 1HP meeting in 1955. .. First, of a Li, uiu you regularly attend I HP meetings7 a. of them. x wouldn't say roguliriy. I -ittended a number w. ..ouid .you agree tnat Union Carbide was a founding member of 1HF? '' A. I would. IdF? Q. And were you ever on the board of directors of A. I don't tnink so. 0. Were you everan officer of IMF7 A. a o. , Ana liiF was an organization that was begun when? Tim/ Ki::wiJ>ri5;r7, - a.UOOl VL'UU t 6 12) 9 22-195 5 X1 A. 1 really don't remeaber 2 Q. What does IHF stand for? 3 A. Industrial Hygiene Foundation. . 4 . Q- And did you start attending meetings in the 5 1940s,' chat is after 1947? 'o A. I really don't recall, but I doubt that I did. 7 Q. And why is it that you doubt that? 6 A Because as a plant medical director we didn't 9 do much traveling. 10 Q. When specifically in 1955 were you transferred 11 to Wew York from the Texas City plant? 13 a. officially July 1. 1 went then to iJew York iu lor about a week and then a spent a month in Pittsburgh t *T going through the records of dr. A.G. 'mmer, who -was the 13 neaicui director of the chemicals ooerntions prior to the JL O rime taut i took over m 1955. 17 si. Would it make sense to you chut you would have* i. o attendee the liiF 20th Annual Meeting held in Moventer of 11 1955 in Pittsburgh? j* 30 A. I really can't say, but 1 might have. 21 Q. 'Veil, I think the gist of my question is bused a on the position that you held us of Hovember of 1955, would 2a it make sense to you that you would have or may hive f, 2-4 attended? 2u A. l mignt have attended, yes. A. K.h-,riEDY 1 .V.ifiOd l vh.i.2; 923-1953 1 Q. 1 assume that you don't have a specific 2 recollection one way or another? i A. That is correct. ___ 4 , Q. I know this goes back a ways, but did you ever 5 have any discussions with the president of Johns-Manville b Corporation at any time during your career with Union 7 Carbide? d A. Wot to the best of my knowledge. I don't even 9 know who the president of Johns-Manville was or is. 10 Q. You don't recognize the name then A. :i. 11 Fischer at all? 12 A. Wo way. id w-. And wnen you came on board in 1947, it's my 14 understanding that you personally knew chat asbestos conic I 5 cause asbestosis? . lo a. That's correct. i. 7 j. And you gained that knowledge from what, your ' 1 o medical education? 19 a. That's correct. i 20 Q. At the University ofWisconsin'* 21 A. That's correct. ' z2 Q. And you understood whoa you came on board with Union Carbide in 1947 that asbestosis could be fatal?,, 24 A. Thuc's cor roct. i 25 Q. And you also knew that in 1947 asbestos was a . * * iv.ii.ld7 A. KCMiJCuY 5* AiiiJ'JCl.vT k> ' i. G i 2 ) J 2 2~ i ':)5 '-> ..OiS -V. --rlr*. c ::::::: Mi: ::: :::: :::::::::::: m::::n:: Uli :::::: progressive disease, is that true? 2 A. Asbestosis was a progressive disease, that's 3 correct. 4 Q. And you also, I assume, had knowledge in 1947 5 that asbestosis was in part related to the dosage that one o inhaled or ingested? 7 A. That one inhaled, not ingested. It has d nothing to do with swallowing. Q. I guess in terms of asbestosis you are 10 absolutely correct, I stand corrected. wow, did you gain li any knowledge whatsoever, be it by feet or theory, that 12 asbestos had a propensity to set up a react ion that could 4. 3 load to cancer? 14 A. i'niy came to ny attention in tne early '60s 15 and prior to that 1 r.nci no knowledge of this. . i a 0. Jo it's your testimony today that at no tine 17 prior to tne early *o0s did you even have a hint that IB asbestos could cause cancer? iy A. That's correct. 20 Q. Do you know a Dr. llcnsnaw, CorwinHonnhuw? 21 A. I know the name. I don't recallthat I have 22 ever met the man. 2., Q. Do you have any recollection of any i..>:tfc-ooks that you have seen written by Dr. Corwin Honshow? 25 A. 1 havo not seen any. kiiW7 a:' iCKilDJOrT^TTJOClATrF ' (a!2) }22-1\J'3j Q You took two years of trial residency in Preventive Medicine and Internal Medicine, is that right? A. That's correct.- ___ Q. Were you ever board certified in any specialty'5 ' A. I am board certified in the specialty of Occupational Medicine. Q. Whan did you become first board certified"5 A. In 1955. c>. To your knowledge is there any board certification or was there ever any board certification for Preventive Medicine? A. 'res, the subspociaity of Occupational Medicine . is -- the certification in occupation.;! medicine is t subspceiulcy unuer tno hoard or Preventive Medicine. w. ueuieina? oli.ii; is your definition of prevent a t i vo A. preventive .wiium is that science of ' iuedicine which is devoted to the prevention c illness and disease in auuau beings. J. And if a person is board certified in 1955 in Occupational Medicine, chat I assume would include the specialty of Preventive Medicine, is that true? A That was a pare of it, yer. - did you over study, in connection with your Medical training, industrial hygiene? :\ l i-.oY 7\~` FuTiirnTETT J1.;v Id J ' 2) ir:>-iv>`>-:  .rx "T-" .- *i->r;. .,'-*. ,-.***v;.*t v-v {{ :::::: * yaw :::::: Hi;:; W 1 Hill: :::::: * ::::: A. No, I did not. " 2 Q. Was there a board certification for the specialty of toxicology in 1955? A. There was not. t U. And since that time, to your knowledge, is there such a board certification? 7 A. I am not sura. 1 think there nay be. a 0. vfhen you came on board with Union Carbide in 9 1947, did Union Carbide have an industrial hygiene 1U department? 11 A. In '47' 1 s Q. In 1947. X J A. -io, tnay die not. 14 j. And subsequent thereto tney uid establish such 15 a department, siun't they? lu A. Yc, they did. 1/ C './hen did Union Carbide first establish it's io industrially hygiene department? 19 A. Well, if one man is considered a department I i xU wouia say about 1953. 21 nru.i tne one jnun you are speaking of,, that 22 wouldn't davo been dr. locale, would it? A. Mo, that was Mr. Paul McDaniel. , t 24 0. hov/, since 195 J, taking it up to 1979 v/'.ion you i stir ad from liraO'i Carbide, would you agree tun t Uv* X1U.JY USi'UKUY ii AcCOClAT-.C'- ' 10 12; 922- 195.> m- l H v.v.v.v. :::::::: V.v.v.v. i 7//0 ::::::: .vV.v.v 1 industrial hygiene department grew by leaps and bounds? MR. JONSS: I will object to the form of che question. _ 4 MR. POLK: He understnds the question. 5 He is thinking about it. b A. The corporate industrial hygiene department 7 grew from one man to about six men and, in addition to that, b we had an industrial hygienist and in some instances two 9 industrial hygienists at three plant locations. 10 >Q. Now, would you agree that between 1950 and 11 1959 or *79 that the industrial hygiene department worker! 12 in tandum with the medical department of Union Carbide7 1J A. 1 would say yes. i 4 d. r:i your opinion, as an assoui.i l -: medical cxii'wccor at Union wroide, die there exist- incqnt rovert ibi-- evidence as of dune 19o7 that asbestos could cause 17 mesothelioma? ' ' X cl A. Clarify a word for me. bid you say a 9 incontrovertible? 1 20 0. Incontrovertibie or, if you prefer, 21 uncontrovertible, if there- is such a word. .- 22 2 J controvert. MR. GOLDBERG: Evidence that you can't 24 A. I. would not consider in 1967 that it was meontrovor tibie. in 196 7 there v/as a growing arotabiii tv t.iRhr a. KP.runv:it: '(Oi'2) 922-1955 that there was a relationship between asbestos unci 2 mesothelioma, but there was evidence coming up at intervals 3 which suggested that this might not be the case. 4 Q. As you sit here today, do you believe that it 5 is incontrovertible that asbestos can cause mesothelioma7 A. i think -- / MR. J0WE3* Any kind of asbestos? 8 MR. POLK: That's what the question was. J Counsel. 1 j A. I think that mesothelioma -- I mean that 11 asbestos can cause mesothelioma. 12 Q. nhd that that proposition, in your opinion us t 1J you sit here today, is ineontrover table? A. L think that is true jf some cases. riot all 15 1mcl o 9 Cl 1 *. ! v c* ai o ^ a C C* O *>L- O C o i o a. ' s. not the question enough. The question 17 is is it, m year opinion as you sit hero today, i :.i incontrovertible that ...sbestos con cause mesothelioma? 19 a. Yes. 1 Uti Q. iiow, tali me the period oi time or the date or 21 tr.e y-uar, us best as you can between 1967 and today's dates 22 .dun you formulated in your own mind that it was iucontrovaj. tibia that asbestos cun cause ncsothe 1. Loan'- , r -4 a. I would say`in the early '70s. 2 5 u. how, follow -that up with ..10, if you will, an.) Klil'JY 1.. Ki.YlwEDY : ` (41.;) ' 5 ' ? - L' * 5 j . 1i />. i tell me what the basis is that you rely upon or relied upon 2 then to come to that conclusion? 3 A. The epidemiological studies which were done pn_ 4 various work groups which -- reliable epidemiological 5 studies on various work groups which demonstrated a 6 statistical association between asbestos exposure and 7 mesothelioma. d Q. And in your opinion was there an absence of 9 statistical data connecting asbestos to mesothelioma prior 10 to that'time? ii A. There was an absence of valid epidemiological 12 studies. The great majority of studies which had been done i.; at that time had some serious flaws which raised some 14 question as to the validity of the conclusions tnat were id reached. . iu Tell me specifically what you ,ro rc hying upon 17 or wnat you relied upon in coming to that the conclusion U that those studies were invalid? 19 i. One of them was that they fuiJed to take into 20 iccount the question of smoking. 21 Q. What 1 cm asking you is to identify.the 22 studies chut you reviewed that led you to the conclusion? 2 J A. 1 really can't recall what tlui specific , 2-i stuuies were that led to those conclusions. 2l> o* t'uir enough* Am I to take it, however, .from ' (a L2 ) v22- L bv V- .r 'J~ . ::::::: :::::::::::::: mu ::::::: iiiiiii: ::::::: uuuu :::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::: iiiiiii ::::::: 1-S-* 1 your testimony today that you in fact personally reviewed 2 certain studies regarding the connection between asbestos 3 and mesothelioma prior to 1967"* 4 A. I don't believe that any of those types of 5 studies really existed prior to 1967. Prior to 1967 we 6 were in a position where people were counting cases of 7 mesothelioma and looking at exposure to asbestos and making a an association which might or night not have been valid. y Q. Did you at that time consider those cases to 10 be solely case studios as opposed to the epidemiological X A studies that you -- 12 A. I believe, y*..s, that they were case typs 13 studies. A 4 Q. You caugnc Occupational Medicine for live 15 years, correct? . id a.:ii, acre than that. I continued Leaching A 7 Occupational Medicine until the day I retired. V.nien I left the- University 1 was given a visiting lectureship at the 10 University ana tnen iiuylor .-ledical College in Houston asked 20 tie to teach occupational Medicine for th *:n until 1955. 21 When 1 transferred to Mew York, 1 was given the title or 22 clinical assistant professor of Occupational. Mee t cine by 23 new York University. I taught there several t ines a from i. 95 5 until ;:iy retirement until 1379. A J j. Do you have anyone in mind tunc you consider . f ~ m.m\' a. ivdiiNMuY c. .'.fitci v;';:'.; ' ' (0L2) 522-1535 " -f. / r jii-. 1a. t** m i-s:. 1. to be the, quote unquote, "Father of Occupational hedicine"? A. I guess you would have to go back to that venerable character known as- Urbano Pozzani. _____ 4 Q. And did you rely on any particular 5 occupational medicine text in your academic endeavors when 6 you were teaching? 7 A. There was one, I can't remember his name, but b it was -- I can't really remember the name of the text. 9 0. You did in fact, however, utilize a textbook 10 for the teaching of occupational medicine, is that right7 11 A. There was such a text, yes, or:d we used it. 12 hut as much us anything else we researched the literature . i J ..aid useu information from the literature. 1 4 U. You have used the word nazard on several i_> occasions when you have been testifying hero. Can you 1 b define Lha word hazard as you have used it? 17 A. hazard would be the probability of i material 13 causing harm under given conditions of exposure. x 9 Q. Lee me be a little bit more specific now than i 20 I was earlier. Is this u true statement, that in 1947 whor 21 you c^iue on board at Union Carbide you understood ' 22 chiysociie asbestos fiber could cause -asbestosis, is th::4: true? fnai correct. And have you personally participated or \Xi.iV .a. i\.-ai-h.tr . .'..hkOCI A ill.1) ' vul/J 422-1. Tib. Srj-r : 'If' '-.lv - 'f i::::::m:::::::::::::::::::: 1// im m urn m:::::: ::::::::::::: ;;;;;; ';?/// mm :W::::::::::i 1 directed co bo done, participated in or directed to be 'lone, 2 any studies of any nature whatsoever for the purpose of determining the toxicity of chrysotile asbestos fiber when____ compared to other types? A. I have not participated in any studies which compared the types of chrysotile toxicity to the toxicity of other asbestos fibers. 0. Can you tell me up to 1979 when you retired whether you have any information at all that would indicate 10 that Union Carbide ever uid a study or commissioned a study 11 for detorraining the toxicity of chrysotile asbestos fiber 12 as compared tc another type of fiber? U A. dot that I know of. x-i Q. And, furthermore, can you tell me, up to 1979 i5 when you retired, whether or not Union Carbide .ever did any L O kind of studies whatsoever concerning the carcinogenicity 17 of Chrysotile asbestos? id A. dot that I Know of. 19 Q. Did you have any involvement with Union 20 Carbide as a consulting physician after 1979? 21 I huu a contract with Union Carbide from 1979 22 to i9d2, at which time the contract lapsed and anything I 23 have uone since then has been as an individual contractor. ; 2<i w*. xlavo you served Union Carbide as 2b inuopoiiutfit contractor since 19U2? AiiClY A. AfbNCDY a \S:i9(.;l.\T ' (M2) 922-Lvjj 1 A Yes. 2 Q. And 1 don't want to be repetitious, but have J you ever served for Union Carbide as an independent ___ 4 contractor since 1982 with reference to anything having 5 anything to do with asbestos? 6 A. Only the one case that I indicated early on in 7 which I was asked to make a deposition and for various o reasons it fell through. 9 U. how, were you aware of any Worker's lu Compensation claims being asserted by workers of Union li Carbide for asbestos related diseases of any kind prior to 12 1970? .. 1J uo. I am not. 14 iiow about a f t o r ly/0 ' 15 1 be 11 eve tiier e w 2 r e a couple of c.isos of 1G aneced asbestos is .t Institute in Charleston from the 17 period i97u until the time 1 retired. Just how many there ' la were i don't recall. 19 C* Dq-you profess any expertise in the area of 20 air sampling? 2i t\ . Uo. 0. Do you understand the concept of time weighted 2 J average? 2 4 A. 1 . Lnink so. ' 2 4 >_! Do you understand the concept of total. ' m<Tr? KWiLDY h -Y,:>oCi ll'be ' (o.l2? 422-1955 " 1 concentration in terms of dust studies? 2 A. Well, I don't really know what you mean by 3 total concentration. . 4: Q. How about just the word concentration? 5 A. Do I understand the meaning of the term 6 concentration? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. As the associate medical director did you have 10 any interfacing, if you will, with any other manufacturers 11 of asbestos or asbestos-containing products? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you nave any relationship with Dr. 14 Lewinsohn at Raybestos Mannattan at any time? 15 A. No. 16, C. Dio you share correspondence wicn other 17 asbestos manufacturers? lo A. No. 19 Q. Do you know whatBakelite is? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did you everparticipate in any kina of 22 studies concerning Bakelite? 2 3 MR. JONES: Object on the grounds pf 24 relevancy. 23 HR. POLK: Do you want me to shew you KIRBY A. KENNEDY o' ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 /} -4#. che sales records indicating Bakelite sales to Conwod? You iiave them. There are ail kinds of sales of Bakelite to Ccnwed. HR. JONES: Do you have them? HR. POLK: I don't know if I have them with me. I will, be happy to share it with you when I get back. I will warrant that to you on the record, that Bakelite was sold to Conwed. HR. LAURA: When9 iu HR. POLK: Between 1904 and 11 A. Repeat your question. 12 O. Sure. Did you purtieipu t* at all in my x 3 studies concerning Bakeiit!-? a 4 i. an .il.juioj, ii-j 13 0- Do you understand Bakelite is used for' A O a m:ow sakeiite is a phenol formaidohyw ,, rcsi) 17 it's used in .aording various types of things like light A 3 fixtures ana pan lids, 1 mean ;> tn dandles, and things of 19 that type, 23 And would you agree that Bakolif j contains 21 asbestos? 22 -`V. Noc to the best of my knowledge. 23 J. Do it would be your opinion, as you sit V*r- 2 a today, that as far is you know Bakelite never contained 25 asbestos? At.di A. KOhJEOv fviJ.2) . ) - I *> -- r- A. it would be my opinion chat the ph'anol 2 formaldehyde resin which composed Bakelite did not contain 3 asbestos. It would be possible that there might be some 4 varieties of asbestos that -- I mean comp varieties of 5 Bakelite that had asbestos added to them. I don't know 6 about that. I don't know all of the product breakdowns of 7 Bakelite. a Q. 1 will read you an answer to Union Carbide's y interrogatories. It says, "Bakelite was a compounded lu mixture of phenolic resin, tetramine, lubricant and fillers, -i. X one of which was chrysotile asbestos." 2 MR. JOUES: Identify thn exhibit. 1 N-> A. That might be one particular oroduct of th ; Xt -}. Bakelite. ?or example, ./ cold j..-knl i to under something i ii like BKS 400. i'nis might have been 3KU 7a0. 1. dell, was Bakelite marketed icy Union Onrbic 17 in granular farm? .* ife s xy MR. JULIES: Can you identify the -- i 20 MU. POLK: Wo. You have tnom. I don't 21 think 1 urn obligated to identity the sources. 22 MR. LAURA: Sure you arc*. If you or- reading from u document at a deposition you nave to let ms 24 know -what it is. HR. POLK: I i/nsn't rending from n . ` K-il-.B/ A.. KENWLD7 A d.-Jc/OCIr t't.LS ` (f* 12 ) '.*22-1 1`3' K'.J'-' Vtt*-. c document. MR. LAURA: I said if you are reading from a document we are entitled to know. 4 MR. JOiSfES: I will move to strike the 5 last exchange on the basis of what he was reading was not. 6 identified. 7 BY MR. POLK: a 0. Then, I will go through it without reading 9 from the document. Doctor, was 3akolite marketed in IU granular form? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Doctor, was there a single purpose for the 13 drafting of the Asbestos Toxicology Report5 14 .a. ,1 single purpose? 13 >*. Yes. That would be a yes or a no answer, T 16 think. . 17 A. Yes. 1 <J J And what was Lhsinyui.tr purpose for the li> Asbestos toxicology Report? 20 A. A request on the part of the marketin'/ people 21 for suen a statement. 22 <2. -\nu arc you able to tell us tea w of XJ involvement that you hud w i th the drafting of tin-; \sbo*sv.o*> c -i Toxicology Report in comparison to Dr. Lena ? a j A. i em't remember the dot iils of something iik> a i Kii'i v K!..!< a ill 1 1 a > Jc' i A C -J _i 6 i. 2 ) )22-l )33 that Q. now, to the best of your recollection was the disease of mesothelioma ever included in any asbestos _ toxicology report which came from you or your department? ' A. I really couldn't answer that. I have no -- I don't have the document to look at, the host of documents, to see whether we ever used the term mesothelioma or not. i am afraid I can't answer your question. Q. Were asbestos toxicology reports reviewed on any time interval basis; in other words, were they reviewed annually or more often than that for any purpose"5 A. Are you talking about Union CJirbido cox ioology reports? Q. That1s coriret. A. I don't be 1 i eve that they were on any regular review basis. . Q. Would you agree chat is of 1067 you were knowledgeable that there -was not a particular safe dosi of asbestos tor the development of mesothelLone7 A. ho, I don't know that today. Q. il.iybe 1 should rephrase that. Did you' have knowledge m iOoV that the development of rvcsothal iona from exposure to asbestos coulu occur with less dosage than, t!an r needed to produce asbest os is? A. ao, 1 did not know -_nat. kids* i . A di J!'id Li Y &. sdabd 1 .Vl'd:; ,-j i. 2 ; >52-ihe> f "V. C ::::: ::::: l 1 Q. Did you have any knowledge or idea of that-5 2 A. 1 had an opinion that that might be the case. 3 Q. And where did that opinion that you formulated 4 in 1967 come from? h 5 A. That's hard to say. I would say that it was 6 just a judgmental decision on my part at that time. 7 Q. Well, would you agree with me that an opinion 3 of that nature formulated at that time would have needed 9 some basis? 10 A*. Not necessarily. 11 Q. Did that just pop into your mind th. n'- 12 A. it's one of these things that when you pull 13 off sometning like this why you concerned about a 1 > disease like nesotnoliana and it appears to you that a 15 Level of five partieios pt r cubic font nignt not bo low L -3 inough to protect ..y< Lnst . serious disease like 17 uesotbe l ioma. i ii '2. .end, as 1 understand it, you found Mr. .Sayers' 19 1967 report to .be reasonably accurate, is that correct? I iU will show you the document if you would like, but I will 21 warrant to you that that's what your letter to Dr. Mull 5uy31 .v. Yes, j l or.u. mb er the letter. 23 >\L 1 righ t. ' 3 :V. Yes, i would say that's probabJ y fru lUn.J'f A.. hdhdsdV V..'.aTJekTjTii'ii: '>12) 922-`. 953 c3 I 1 Q. And without looking at Mr. Sayers' report, as 2 you sit hers today, do you have a recollection as to 3 whether Mr. Sayers' report addressed the disease of 4 mesothelioma? . 5 A. My recollection is that it did. 6 Q. And do you recollect, as you sit hero today 7 without reviewing your letter of June of 1967, whether or a not that letter -- I take it it's the letter, let me mak^ 9 sure, whether that draws upon Mr. Sayers' report, that is 10 the contents of the report? 11 MR. JOMKSs i wiil object. if vou would 12 like to look at tnc- letter .again -- A. i nave looked at so aery documents I at* not 14 sure winc you ..re talking about. Lj 2. .Veil, i -u.i : ;!> tag specifically .bout, cue L O letter th it you .'rote to Or. .la 11 which L think you saw i / I--fore your deposition here today, it's your June 'G7 ia letter to ur. ."iuli.? 1R JOiiiii Dcmat 1 Rxh ibi t 3 J . do iiY MR POLh; 21 Q. Your Counsel has given you a copy of. the 22 letter, nus no not'-' 2./ A. You. 24 C. iiow, ;ny question to you is this, as you are 25 sitting there in your chair right now rev lowing tit - letter ' ' id. Per A. doMMKDY :< /vt-COCi A it'3 ' ^ o. L 2 ) ') 2 2 ~ 1 j h 1 do you have any recollection of drawing upon Mr. Sayers' 2 report in drafting the concents of Exhibit 33? A. Sot really. 4 Q. And setting aside the letter for a moment, do 5 you have any recollection of drafting any documents of any b kind. Doctor, wherein you relied upon the contents of Mr. 7 Sayers' report? b So, I do not recall such a document. y Q. Did you have any input -- I think you talked 10 eariier-'in your testimony about some kind of warning that 11 was put on to the containers of asbestos, do you recall 12 that? C 14 A. Right. 0. w'hut kinu of involvement did you have in that id issue? Lb o. All of. cue pcoducts thet Union Carbide' sold 17 had soma sort of a runic on it. Union Carbide had 'what jm O 'tny called a label comriittoe, it v;.;s a part of the i9 chemicals anu plastics livision but it acted as a Label 20 committee for Lite whole corporation. The label committee 21 was comprises of tne medical department. Jaw department, 22 transportation, marketing anu tire and safety protection 2 J and chemical reactivity groups and wnen somebody had a, product unat they wantea'to market they submitted s request ter a label to the label.-commi t tee. 7 hl.UiY a., uhUilbuY a oJbC.l'M'KS ' (mi2) 7 22-L9-.il " Q. Did the medical department have any involvement with the label committee? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Did you personally? 5 A. Yes. Q. V/ere you a member of the label committee? A. Yes. Q. Viere you a member of the label committee 9 between 1968 and 1979? 10 A. 1 was a member of the label committee from 11 1955 until 1973 when I withdrew from that activity. i2 'J. Did the label committeekeepmi nucos' . res. Q. vhi;5 chore t secretary to that oomwict'v.'? i 3 A. Yes. X. U 0. who was the secretary of the Labeling 17 community between 1965 and about 1 it'}5^ i a A. I don't Know about as eariy as '65. I know at i9 '/5 a gentlemen by the name of Jim Cha. tsworth was the i' 2U secretary. 21 Q. what position or .mat department would 'he have 22 come from? 2J A. Ua was in, I amnot sure,shipping, I1 r. 1 :\k, 24 in outil iestoi;. 2 j f. When was tine first timethat label inn of >x 1 i\ . i\d.lW ai i...''vC 1. \u." J9: -* :;a *- V.i.^": ::::::::::::::::::::: iUirJ 1:::: ::::::: li 7//A :::::: m :w::::::::::::::: ::::: ///// asbestos products was discussed in tho labsling conaittoe? 2 A. I have no recollection. Q. Violl, was it ever discussed? A. Yes. u ' Q. And did you wake recommendations from a medical toxicology standpoint concerning the labeling of the asbestos? d A. Yes. 9 Q. And were those recommendations geared towards 10 cne wording of the label? II A. I.J3 . x2 w Ana -.liu you actually, on your own behalf or lJ yourself, diait the language? A. 1 probably drafted tiie language and submitted lb it to the lub-i '.rooitii t tea us whole for discuss i on. iu how, w.is tne draft of; tr.~ Label for the 17 asbestos thut you did, whenever taut was done-, was that id uucpt'.ai by the committee? iy A. Oh, gee, it might have been adopted with some 2u manor revisions. I really can't answer that. *) ^i Li. bid you at any time or anyone from your 22 department at any time make a suggestion to the labeling 2 j v.oKUiiittao that notification of potenti al c sneers , iriciuued on a ' I A. a c was discussed* A. AAJdiiOY a ( > i ?. ) ')'Z2 - JOCr.A"dd Q And ic was ultimately rejected, s that right? A. i don't recall the exact wording which was ultimately used. Q. Well, Doctor, I am just asking you if the use of the word cancer was rejected by the committee, that's all. A. Yes, but I think that they selected some alternative language and I was trying to remember what it was. Q. Whenever the labeling committee met and whenever these discussions were going on, and I understand that you can't recall the time, can you tell sna this, w-r.' discussions concerning the labeling of asbestos produced by Union Carbide, were those discussions ongoing over che years? . A. They were from the standpoint that there wore alterations in the product over the years which resulted in' the neeu tor a now label. Q. And what alterations wore made to the product that required that? A. Well, for one thing, they prepared a so-called coated product, whicn ended up on the basis of nil acceptable knowledge at that day and time .is having no(, enicinogcrue huxurd and it was a product which, for oxatple, `./as exempt under the OSiiA regulations. i'.o that required s A-KUf A.. dhihNdOY u i change in labeling. 2 Q. Would you agree with me on this, that you knew J in 1347 that asbestos could cause serious bodily harm? 4 A. I knew that asbestos, when inhaled in 5 excessive quantities, could produce the disease asbestosis. b Q. In 1947 when you held that opinion, what was 7 your definition of excessive quantities7 3 A. Anything in excess of ton part icL-as per cubic 9 foot greater than ten microns in length. 1U Q. And, Doctor, .a fir :s the Union Carbide 11 asbestos is concerned, can you tell me how nany pur c i -?s 12 per cubic foot one needs to be ucl* to sac it7 13 /. i am not sure 1 can do tnnt. L 4 j. Di-; /os over learn, wn i ie you -./err- f *> 1 j associate medical ui roc cor, tnut there needed to be r. i o certain number of Coalings or C.j.rilia fibers in . cubic 1/ toot of before it was visible? 1J A. i'het w-.is outside of my ires of knowl'-cigo or 13 competence to judge. 2u Would you have Dean interest -*d in knowing 21 information ftom the Union Carbide industrial hygiene.: ^ V -.apartment that unless there ware more than ten particles 23 pet cubic foot you couldn't even sea the stuff7 ,, 2 4 . Mil. J0UE5: Object LO the quest ion as 23 cailing lor speculation. (o-i7; odv-ivaf X \u MR. POLK: I ur.i asking if he would have been interested in knowing that information when he was the associate medical director. __ A. Wot particularly. We hadiindustrial hygienists that worried about that particular aspect. So you wouldn't have necessarily been interested in knowing that even in your capacity as being on tne labeling committee? A. That's right. MR. JOWES: i will object to the question as argumentative. Go oend. BY MR. POLK: W. .a your opinion, as a meir.nei: of the labeling committee for several y-.ii.rs, do you personally feci that it uoes v.ny jooa to -.\xi n user of Union Carbide asbestos liber to not hr .`..tne list that they can't S'-e7 ilR. J0LJE3: object to that on the basis ' it calls for speculation. It's beyond the witness's stated expertise. Go. ..xhead and answer in you can. Also, r>s to the form of the question as to the words whither it does any good being vague and ambiguous. Go ahead 3>nd answer. A. fes, because you can't see a gas but you vurn people about ora*thing gas. Go it's the s me sort of,** warning. . ' vi. ana to your - knowledge was the word cancer ever. . rvli\li.y A. KEiJN Kill l<` >iGaOJ i. ' di.c) ') 22-ldi.a 1 used by Union Carbide in connection with its asbestos 2 products labeling? A. The labeling I don't recall. _ 4 Q. What is the average length of a Calidrin 5 asbestos fiber? 6 A. Average length is somewhere under five microns, 7 as I recall. Q. And you certainly are familiar with the 9 standards that have been used by industrial hygienists for 10 a long time as far as che counting of asbestos fibers I 11 assume, is that true? A. 1 aiu turiliiar tti.it ti..;y count them. I don't U know exactly now they uo 11. '"it's t eeir business. '2* 'i.- you -vor ecu .n ./:c .sion to so ..my 15 counting uneor a microscope of .u f i i ter con l-. i.ning asbestos i o 1iber? 1 / bo, i nave not. ;o w. bo you know wnat the aspect ratio is for a 19 par Licuiur fiber to be counted as an asbestos fiber" eO A. I don't know what you are talking .bout. 2 i. W. L am going co show you what I hava marked as 22 Plaintiff's Cxnioit 3324. I will represent to you it's th2.' September i , 1972 material aatn safety sheet which you,saw 24 a a 1 tv C , . i i icl i .Lliink you indicated th.-.c it was incomplete s 5 oecause it uidn'L nave .mother -page connected to if. I K. a 1 kei'ib iiDY U . a. c'1-.: i. v s>a 2 > 922-1.9 55 Wr m M s 3if *. c :.:::::::::::. ::.-:::::::: 1 don't think there was any follow up on that. 'Would you 2 Lake a look at what 1 have here and tell me if the second J page that is now connected to the first page makes that 4 document complete? u 5 A. That now makes the document complete. 6 Q. And, again, I don't want to be repetitious, 7 but as 1 recall your testimony, while you had involvement a with the labeling committee, you didn't have any involvement in the drafting of material safety data sheets7 xo A. No, that's not true. I did not have any 11 particular input into drafting tnis material safety data 12 sneet. la U. dan you answer th is, wi th the .crument you i4 have' got in your hand, true baptembor l, iy/2 shear, vou tc 1J there have been ..nybociy in the medical da par triVint net lb would have hue input other then yours*? If V 17 if tnerc ms medical input in it, it cane id ljl Luild' id Q. When aid Dr. bane, by the way. leave 'Jnion aO Carbide? 21 A. dee, am not sure. 1 would say probably ' .'52. 22 Mil. JONE.U: bo you min.; if we cnat' rift. POLK: do ahead, sure. w . t 24 (Ac tnis time DRRNLTU, Deposition Exhibit 40 was marked for identification ov the N.iftJY A. Kbi'hibDY A Y.iiJ-aC . .Vi' . j v 0 t 2 / 42/.--A. fib < * -- '<- * : * r. I-'- win:::::::::::::: ::::::: /:/::/::/::/::/::/::: : 1 1 Court Reporter.) 2 MR. JOWES: Dr. Dernehl, what has now J been marked as Dernehl Exhibit 46, that's the material 4 safety data sheet that you were just talking about' 5" THE WITNESS: Yes. b MR. JONES: Thank you. / BY MR. POLK: b Q. 'Would you agree with this, that as or I960 9 Union Carbide had experts within it's employ to test ID ambient air levels for asbestos? xi MR. JONES: Ob^cut to the form of tlv. 12 question. Test, you mean cho capability of tasting' X S BY MR. POLK: 0. bo you not v.nJorst..nd that question' 15 A. Yes, we li-.id experts who ween caoubL .* of making L VJ determinations of ... lr nono-nnerutions. 1V J. iinu would you also agree that .is of i960 Union j. '.j C-iibiut: had the equipment with in it's possess ion to test 19 ambient air levels for asbestos? A. At soma locations. J. And would you also agree that as of ).900 Union X Z Carbide nd within it's employ experts who could -valueto z j tne* testing for purposes of determining those ic.veis' _ i " Yi. 1> 25 raid in your opinion would Union Carbide '.s T~TE5Y \ j *. e j i i.J j * D i a \. <..1 55 l 'if- > v;. 1 .1; 9 2 2-1956 1 expertise in the testing of ambient air levels and the 2 counting of asbestos fibers, would that expertise have J gotten better or worse between 1960 and 1972? 4 MR. JONES: Object pn lack of foundation. You can answer, if you can. BY MR. POLK: 7 Q- In your opinion? a A. Jo. It would have improved because, for one o thing, the technology of sampling and of identification had lo improved. Q. And in your opinion, if you have one, is there l2 any expertise required for tne counting of asbestos fibers in the ambient air? c 14 A. Y : a. i j 0 . can you c:a t eyor l to f. he j agree of expertise Ivi teat in your opiuiou is necessary for thet to be done? 4. 7 A. o % a uj ' t do that. 13 *-- And are you familiar with any kind of training 12 program offeree.by Union Carbide concerning the testing of 20 ambient uir ievois for asbestos that were offered to any personnel within the employ of Union Carbide it any time-3 A. I really have no reliable knowledge in Lhtc degree on that question. , 2 4 w. /pu wet apparently shown some docunants last rnqnt when you met with your attorneys from Union Carbide,* l .'.l-ldl' A., i'l lwi'.Ji' -V "\JSCCI Y,A.a l a L 2 / v22-J 2 3`; *1 M r.wiv n:::n: r m m m mih ; ; ;:::::::::::: f m::::i::: ;::;::;::;::;::;: :::::::::: 1 is that riynt? 2 A. Right. J Q. Are you represented here today? 4 A. Am 1 represented here today? 5 ' Q. Yes, by an attorney. 6 A. Two of them. 7 Q. Maybe even three of them? a A. Maybe even three. I forgot about him. 9 Q. Did you retain these attorneys last night7 10 A. tJo. 11 Q. Otner than the document, which I believe 12 consists of the letter that you wrote to Dr. Mali in X 2 '67 -- 14 A. Yes. 15 - want to know each and every document that 16 you reviovveu xust night with your attorneys. i 7 A. i'hu t is the only document we looked o t. ' 15 i>. when you left Union Carbide in 191'), lid you X J take any documents with you7 I 20 A. I aid not. a to And who took your position, if anyone, in 22 i j 19 ? A. I eon'c think anybody took my position. , t Q. And I want to confirm with you that I have ~o correct u.-idars tanuiny of your prior testimony, cor root : alKUf a., klkihhiji a :V../-oC.,.,vTuT (old) J 1`2-i DU'* if I aiu wrony, tnat in the 1940s you recognized a concern A in the asbestos area relating to insulators using asbestos, 3 is that true? 4 A. That's correct. i b Q. And the reason that you recognized that at 6 that time was because insulators in the field wera >ST 7 manipulating, sawing, and doing other things in the field 6 with asbestos containing pipe insulation, block insulation and that sort of thing, is that right? 10 A. That's correct. 11 0. And, Doctor, do you understand or h^ve >ny 12 knowledge concerning wnether or not asbestos is an ingredient in gasket type products? 14 A. My knowledge is that it is in icm.:- is!-:ots, i. _> yes. io i>. .eo you n.^ve any knowledge from any source 17 whatsoever tnat would indicate to you v.-heth-?r or not th I 6 asbestos within gasket type products is a pot-anti a l hazard? 19 A. It is a hazard in certain types of gaskets. i 20 Q. has union Carbide, to your knowledge, ever a 21 producer of any asbestos-containing gaskets or packing 2 Z material? 2s A. hot that i know of. ,, 24 'j. Do you nave an opinion as to whether or net in-place asbestos-containing insulation products such, as iij t; Ji A. AlliUijUi * ' (Aik) -lib i "* .. '' 1 pipe covering and asbestos block possess n. hazard? li*0i-T..t 1u. 2 would be a yes or a no answer. J A. You want to know if I have an opinion? Yes, I 4 have an opinion. , b ' Q. All right. What is your opinion? 6 A. My opinion is that as long as the / asbestos-containing material is not disturbed it is not 3 hazard. i> Q. Do you have an opinion as to whether or not 10 in-placa asbestos-containing insulation products pose a LI hazard if they arc disturbed-5 12 H. < Yes. l J U< dn.t is your on.nior.? 14 A i tuey lease asbestos into ir they are i b a hctzaru. lg u. .*..eu do. you nave iny opinions, bosjci on any 17 source trom i guess anyv/iiore, is to wh.it ti;o airborne x ti ciui accer i at its are of asbestos fibers? 1 moun to use a 19 differanc word as opposed to airborne. I MR. DROWN SON: Aerodynamic? ; i 21 MR. LOliK. 4. t. Do you know anything about the aerodynamics of 23 asbestos fiber? i n . 0012 0 Wti.it SObVor. t* J 1/ 0. .'aid you hon' t have any recollect ion of seeina TTinuV A.. hi.jiibDV ..jC.: vita iol Ci 92 2-10 1'. 1 c' .t: %. --r*. % * ---r7'~b.j . . ' #. -V-.*/rVA* ' 2 3 4 3 o i b .y 10 ii 'C 12 1 iH 13 -L 0 Ml m m wm. 777/7 Ml iiiiiii: ":7:::7::7:: m 7/77 wm 77/7/ ////;//: H:::i:m::: 7::7:7:7:7:7:; .. 17 i3 iy l U 2J. 22 2j wt 2:> ny reports, while you were the associate medical director, concerning the aerodynamics of asbestos fiber? A. Mot that I ccin recall. Q. And do you have an opinion, as you sit here today,' that leads you to a definite conclusion that ehrysotile asbestos cannot cause mesothelioma"7 MR. J0ME3: I will object to the form of the question as compound. Answer it if you can. A. Do I have an opinion that ehrysotile asbestos cannot cause mesotheliomci? Q. Yes. A. Mo. Q. !.o wuat7 A. Mo, i con' t nave an opinion r. nu t it 'inner. :j. Do you h.ivi an opinion, with i-o-isonnblo iaed ical certainty, .that ehrysotile- asbestos in lct can cause lucsothe Lioma? A. Providing that -cna exposure of an individual is sufficient lo bring about such a condition, yes. 0. Let me just buck up for a minute anil get the basis tor your Last opinion that ehrysotile cm cause i:ii-soth;iio!Uu. k.nat's the basis for your opinion? A. 'inut it can cause9 1 Ife s. " A. '.-.'. .LI, there, is sufficient v-iiio iUi'hx' a. rhidMAbn; -bhAx:;. Wh . iui >) s r-# / 7T-t; : ~y :' /- k :m:}::::::::::::::::}:: ::::::: mill n:::m:::: M::::u::: :;:;:;:;:;:;:; Tit: j ::::::::::::::: 1 epidemiological studies today to indicate that chrysotile 2 asbestos can cause mesothelioma, lung cancers. i\nd there a is even more conclusive evidence available that the . 4 probability of this occurring is enhanced ten times or nor 5 if an individual smokes. 6 Q. Are you of the opinion that there is any 7 synergistic effect between cigarette smoke and asbestos as U relates to the disease of mesothelioma"* 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And what's that opinion based on"* 11 A. That opinion is based on the fact that thcr 12 is evidence that the asbestos fiber picks up the 1J carcinogenic materials from cigmecte snoc-, hinds it an L4 carries it with it wherever it ao_s. 1 j * 'i-'li ;iv, in your opinion, is mosotfuvt ioma : i a iung cancer* l i v. -iOt. as such. In's a cmc:r of connective io tissue chat lines the rung cavity and it Linos the 1 0 intestinal cavity. d Q. -veil, doctor, .ire you able to cite for r:e- any 21 medical literature from an epidemiological standpoint, 4> O fitst of .ill, that lias lead you Lo believe that cigarettes 2 J can contribute to the development of a mesothelioma? ,, Mt '* A. 1. can't cite lor you the literature right now 25 hue the statistic ii data.-which has been developed to this hhi a.' MhdbtiA t (vl.: *> _ v .) it point indicates that the incidence of mesothelioma is a heck of a lot higher in those who smoke than it is in those who do not. Q. Is the same true for the development of lung cancer? 03*2 A. Absolutely. Q. And I assume that you would also agree that a Chrysotile asbestos is certainly capable of causing a y peritoneal mesothelioma, is that fair? 10 A. If it can cause it m the lunq, it can caus-> ii it in the peritoneum. i/. Q. Doctor, are you aware of any studies that war? i j done in the Cloquet, Minnesota, area concerning v. io r4 deposits of clnysotiie asbestos in tno river chut a joined 13 the Connect or Cloquet oLant^ 1 u i co noc know anything ..bout your studies in 17 the river at this point. id d. .and so you were never informed by Union iy Carbide, at least as far as you can recall, about Union Jd. Carbide going co the Conwed plant and testing for 21 chrysotile asbestos in the river, is that right? A. not chut i know ..bout, 2 J Q. h'ow, did you know back in 1967 that cigarette _ r su:oku unci ..sbestosis hid a synergistic effect with 2^ re L-ji'cncu to the haveJ opment of lung cancer'* I'.iadi A.. iNa/'.'L'JdwY . ' da )L. \ I*, l r ) -JS'/.- i ) > .> in 1967? 2 6'. That's correct. J A. NO/ we did not know that at that tine. _ 4 Q. And did your knowledge concerning the 5 synergistic effect between cigarette smoke and lung cancer 0 arise in the early '70s? 7 MR. BROWMSOH: You had better rephrase b that. Hike. You mean cigarette smoking and asbestos? 9 BY MR. POLK: 1U Q. I am sorry, cigarette smoking and asbestos, il did that knowledge come to you in the early '7Cs7 12 A. 1 would say yes. 1 j 0. finally, with reference to the labeling J.4 committee, can you tela me what criteria /as used by the 15 committee in dealing wheru asbestos Labeling7 . lO A. at the time that cnc first -sbestos rabies 17 were applied to Lne bags. ie 0. May I interrupt you there? Vhion was that? iy You don't remember? 20 A. I ar.i sure i don't know. It would probably be 21 in the eariy 'uOs when we first started shipping asbestos. 22 U* `./hy do you say it would probably be in the J* early '60s wnen you first started shipping7 , 2-, A. Because that's when 1 tnink they probably 2 star tji.1 suipoiriu. TTaTiT 77* K Kil 7i.71 - Y 7 7 ^. j ' 7'1 i a 717. i (hi 2} )22-L;15 Q. Does that necessarily mean then in the early '60s when you started shipping you had the knowledge to put the warning on the bag? . A. We put a warning on the b^g. - > Q. When you started shipping from the King City plant in the early '60s? A. To the best of my knowledge that bag would have had some sort of a warning. Now, I must admit there d is a possibility -- there is a possibility that the early 10 shipments for the first year or so may have been made i J. without u rubai but it was not done without, the .Label 12 committee's knowledge or approval. i 3 tj. They kind of snuck them out' 14 iliv. JOJ131 Ob} -Ot to the form of th ? id question, io by :'1R. POLK. ii. /~t 0. C c.n just kidding. You think it was about a * ib year or so after that taut you believed co the best of you: 10 recollection that t warning label was put or: the asbestos I 20 bags? 21 A. To the bast of my recollection and my ' 22 expectation that would have been the case it that tine ./ tool; into consideration what was known about asbestos,t' what was Known about do<linga asbestos .is compared to the 'ong L J fiber asbestos tiu.t was .marketed bv Johns-. In nvi 1 lo end by t\i RliY '1. .O'OsWi'.'O i h A' >'-n)C I. ATM, ' ;dl'2) V22-I 'JD3  X the Canadian operations and the belief on the part of many 2 people that only long fiber asbestos caused asbestosis, and because ofchat the label ontheinitial Coalingashipments 4 was probably a mild label. i 5 Q. Saying something like what; don'tbreathe it? 6 A. Avoid breathing dust, a simple sort of a thing. 7 Q. Okay. a A. Subsequently, as we learned more about it, I 9 am sure the language became or should have become and 10 probably did become more stringent and we now warned that 11 breathing dust may cause prolonged serious illness and then 12 the statement, "Do not breathe dust." -lo longer "avoid", 1 U but "do not". r 4 Q. And based on the knowledge that you had at the 15 various times in tuo 'GOs and '70s, at whoc point do you i'i bexiove that Uno more serious warning should have been put L7 on tne oag? la A. I would s.y in the late 'GOs and **.trly '70s, 19 by which time it was pretty wall established that there was 10 an association between exposure to asbestos and 21 mesothelioma and lung cancer. 22 >} And you have kind of -answered my question. 22 Were there any other criteria, other than what you huv;: 2 o-er.tioneu, mat wan. used' by the labeling comm ttec ? 25 A. Wei a the Kind of hacutge the t was produced was* ..ulitf AT"AVdMdUY Wi:'.K!i-v'l'!l \ ! 2 ) 9 2?-I'.'hi '>;v**^=C* 'c m:::n:::a:: 11 :::::::: m:::::::::::::: will .:::: 1 always taken into consideration. 2 U. You mean the kind of damage that the produce 3 itself could produce was always taken into consideration? __ 4 A. night. t( 5 ' Q. Did 1 ask you if you ever recommended that the fc> word "cancer" be put on the label? 7 A. You asked me and 1 told you that we did not J ever recommend it, that I can recall. S> Q. Is there any particular reason that in spite 10 of your.* knowledge concerning that issue that such 11 recommendation wasn't made? 12 HU. J0N12J: Object to the question as 13 argumentative. do ahead and answer. 14 A. :iy best recollection at the tine is chat, 15 Humber a, at that point ia time everyboav was still iO concerned about the. icing fiber chr/sctij o type of asbestos 17 ^nd we were talking about the snort fiber, short small la fibur dortlinga type asbestos. And it was our belief at 10 that time, and actually to some degree it is still my 20 belief, that they are not the same breed of cat, they dcr.'t- 21 act exactly the same and they don't necessarily produce the 22 same disease or the sumo types of disease .-nd that with 2.. that uncertainty in there there was also a question of,, 24 whether wo should go so far as to say causes cancer. '.> s that 'inter ta inty -vcr resolved UY a. Kdi.ii.ibDY u A fiOCi A:' l O ; 022-1'.': i definitively in your own wind before 1979? 2 A. I don't believe it has been assigned or 2 tesigned totally at this point in time. 1 4 Q. Do you have any idea what Canadian Grade 7 5 fiber is? o A. Ho, I don't. 7 <J. Do you understand that the Calidria or 8 Coulinga fiber was likened from day one to Canadian Grade 7 9 iiber ? 10 A*. No. 11 MR. JOWES: Object to Lb.> form of the 12 question. i J A. Don *t know anything about that. 14 C. And did you ever do any kind of work tc 15 determine the carcinogenicity of Cadnadian Grade 7? lu A. ho. . 17 Q. do you wouldn't knew, as you sit here today, 18 one way or another as to whether or not Canadian Grades 7 19 chrysociie causes mesothelioma, is that right? 2J A. That's correct. 2 L '* * Have you ever been a diagnostic medical doctor0 22 A. I wouldn't say so, no. 2 c have you aver treated a patient? 24 Liz. 2 3 Do you know-how ntesotholioua works Ln the body; ul a!Vi' \. ACUHCDl ... ' ini 2) 922-1 J ) I in otiler words, once you have a tumor do you 'know what that 2 tumor does to cause death generally? 3 A. V/eil to the best of my recollection, __ 4 mesothelioma -- n 5 'Q. Doctor, I am just asking you if you know. I o don't need an explanation. 7 A. 1 really haven't studied it to the point where d I could tell you how mesothelioma causes death. 9 Q. Do you have an opinion, and you may not, 10 whether"or not mesothelioma or death by mesothelioma is 11 more painful or less painful than death by asbestosis? 12 A. I have no way of knowing that. 13 OR. POLK; That's all I have for now. 14 but again I 'want to retain my right to continue the id deposition. 1 am ending my questions now because it's 4:.>0 10 ana we nave to gat .back co iiiv.veseha . i/ iJ RECROSd-SXAMINATION 19 iiY HR. DROtfUSCti: 20 0. Let me ask you a question. Doctor. iJaybe dike 21 asked it, but I don't think so. Are you -aware that some 22 individuals are more susceptible to mesothelioma than 23 others? Jt f ,f :iR. JOMZ5: Object to the question as repetitive. Go ahead. i.ikdi K. Ll JLDl *. Jo' jC.C AT .1 > (oi ; )2.1- 1 Da . --A m -Tc X '. ***.; c ::::::: A. II ddoonn't't kknnoowrf hhooww yyoouu ddeeteterrmmininee tthhaatt. Q. Are you aware that in practice that has turned out to be the case? ___ 4 A. I don't know how anybody could prove that D there is greater susceptibility to mesothelioma. 6 Q. Are you aware that cases of mesothelioma have 7 been diagnosed upon extremely low exposure histories to asbestos? A. I am aware of the fact thcit there are cases of 10 mesothelioma which are not related to asbestos, so it is 11 entirely possible that you could have somebody with a very 12 low exposure to asbestos who aa a mesothelioma. la Q. Are you also aw-..re cnal peep l .> have oven i4 diagnosed of having *.esotneiromn chat had ' . ry /** exposure i _> to asbestos? i 6 A. 17 J. 1 Thanks. i suppose th.it * s possible. HR. mOl-iV.SOki: That's all I have. 1 v MR. GOLDBIJRG: I have r question. i 20 1R. i-lAAVARD: Can we take a break right 21 now just co give the Doctor a break? ' 22 MR. GOLDBERG: I just, have one question 2 j though. Can 1 just as* one question? 24 . Mil. POLK: I want to be clear hero on ti.e raeoru that we are going to have direct exam in .cion now. xaTV i. KTM.Jian v '. ..ba V. T, ' tv,,U) '.i22-L ):>:> 1 MR. JONES: Unless you want to say the 2 deposition can't be used at trial. j MR. POLK: I didn't end tny questions for 4 rhe purpose of missing my airplane. I inm not done o cross-examining the gentleman. 6 MR. JONES: You made that clear on the 7 record. 3 MR. POLK: Are you not planning on 9 bringing this witness to tho trial, is that the idea, 10 because have no notice that you intended on taking his 11 testimonial deposition. This was noticed for discovery 12 purposes. . id MR. JONES: I think there ere some* x-'l i.nings in discovery tlu.it need to be clarified based on son' x 5 of the testimony that's been given today. it> MR. POLK: 'Then 1 think you ought to 17 note the gentleman's testimonial deposition. You 13 discovered niy client, for six hours before 1 took any direct 19 and I wane to have the same opportunity. 20 MR. LAURA: In every donor,i t ion , 21 discovery or otherwise, you have the right to direct 22 examination, so I don't enink that's a problem. I moan, iF 2 J you have a problem -with that, tell me what it is but I , 24 ion' t think that should not have tiro right to do that. 2 _> MR. I'JLK: I don't know who t the int ent j'M.iijy A.. tVEMNEDi .-`idw'JC. I ATE-.. ('<,>L2j 922-1 9!7:> 1 hero is. i/hut's your intent? Are you intending on 2 offering the deposition at trial? If that's what your 5 intent is, yes, I nave a whole lot of problems with that __ 4 and that's not in accordance with the Minnesota Rules. 5" HR. JONES: The Minnesota Rules don't 6 make any distinction between depositions for discovery 7 purposes and testimonial purposes. a MR. POLK: Sure it does. D MR. HARVARD: Why don't v/a get your one 10 question? c ' / 12 C &0S3- EXAM1 itVT TON 1 e BY HR. GOLDBERG: 14 q. One quest ton. in two p-.rts. Doctor, uy nano is 15 Joe Goldberg. With regard to your opinion that. chrysoti.Us 1 & asbestos can cause .mesothelioma, have you had an 17 opportunity to review any literature or hear any teatir.ony ' 4.0 to the contrary from any .'Xpert7 10 A. 1 .can only recall seeing, and I can't cell you A* J where I did read it, evidence to the affect that the 21 incidence of mesothelioma among a group where it 'yeas 22 expected to bo high, was found to be very low. it a J suggested chat tncre may or may not be relationship , between t.nryjo.tiie asbestos and mesothelioma. 2o Q* and now the. second part of my quest ion. .,'ouId i.i Rii i a n\i>: h. i:> b \ { '> L 2 ) .4 2 .< ~ - * 4 4 \ i ao _ 1 it bs; fair to 3ay then that it's not that you liave 2 considered and rejected evidence to the contrary but rather 3 that you have just not been exposed to it. i-J*' 4 MR. 3R0WNS0N: I am .going to object to 5 that in light of his last answer. o MR. POLK: I will join in that. 7 liY MR. GOLDBERG: 3 Q. Do you understand the question. Doctor7 Let y me rephrase the question. Vlas it that you rejected the 10 voracity*of the one item you were talking about or simply 11 that it was not a substantial enough body of evidence to 12 cause you to reconsider your opinion; in other words, die 13 you thin* it was wrong or not enough? 1 '-t A. To reconsider what opinions? 15 y. That chrysotilo can cause mesothelioma. lo A. I think that the pr eponderance of evi U r. : ,-t 17 the present time suggestions that under certain 1 5 circumstances enrysotiie asbestos can cause me so the lion.:, ly and the circumstances generally arc those of rather large 20 exposure, massive exposure. 21 Q. I understand you have testified to that. 22 A. dow, 1 think it is also entirely possible that 2a tne relationship be tv; yen exposure to chrysokile nsbestps :::V:::7: ifid mesomelia,aa is and lias been .exaggerated. w. Doctor, r.iy question to you isn't quite on .-.hat i. . ~ uLkpy a... me;luEi)* v'ox- t '..'22- l'l a5 T c - -'patH - 'c 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 o y 10 ii 12 i3 t 'rt 13 L/ io iJ .< 20 22 22 24 2a point. My question is evidence to the contrary, evidence tnat asbestos doesn't cause mesothelioma has been described to you. My question was did you think that evidence was___ wrong or untruthful or simply inadequate in its scope to change your opinion? A. It was inadequate in its scope. MR. GOLDBERG: I have no other questions. MR. HARVARD: Can we take & break right now for about five minutes and let us talk. (At this time a brief recess was tak.jn. ) MR. POLK: Doctor, we were just outside tailing and your lawyers would like to cake so;n ? testimony from you. i am sure you _iru- tirju inti v:ould lit ,- to eo aojtie ici we would like to go horn?. Do you have any problem, if the weather was somewhat decent up in Minnes.otn, of appearing in Minnesota at some suture dar.e for the furposi's of completing this testimony" Do you have any vroblem with that ? THE WITNESS: Well, the main problem is I don't like to travel any nor?. For one thine, this business of hypoglycemia; the other is I ua getting' cataracts and you noticed I had a little bit of tronb.1 frying to see when 1 was reading. And if I do travel ;nv Wife has to go. v/ifn re to keep an eye on me. MR. POLK: slow would you feel .bout it i\ I Rii Y m K :JM a ii `.j V a ' '.it- L .Y.' ' i ' ' .Li 2) *322- 1 h'jb ' . - m r 1 if we brought or someone brought you and ydur "wife up to 2 i-iinnosota at sons future date for the purpose of completing your testimony and put you up in a nice hotel in 4 Minneapolis? u 5 MR. HARVARD: At their expense. b THE WITNESS: It would have to be after i the 1st of May because we are having a meeting of the Sons 3 of the American Revolution down here the last of April and 9 I am the general chairman of the whole damn meeting. It's 10 a state 'meeting. I am going to be wrapped up in that from 11 here on out until tnat is over. 12 MR. POLK: The lawyers for Union Carbide lb would like to take some testimony from you. The case that 14 we are here on or one of the oasis that wo are here for is 1 j the ilanisco case wnj.cn is schedulec. Ici t rial March 20 J. b coming right up. a..oar ti.niy don't /ant to do anything re i / prejudice Union Carbide to take your testimony, bur. on the 11_> otner hand we would like to close iL up and that's why wv 1J are asking you about your avtiilubility and willingness to 20 come up. 1 thiriK you have answered the question. ^ i THE WITNESS: My problem is the responsibilities 1 am going to have in tnis area up u.nti1 the end of April because from here on in it really gets, auart end in,ve to work like mad to get everything set up. .1 e MR. POLK: 1,'ouid r nos<; resoons ibi Lit.Les 1 i<i>Y \.- KENNEDY '.el i) '/> rv'G -rV'Si .-.--a i -----1. mam ::::::: :::::::: .:.:.:.:.v.v miiih ::::::: if ::::::: ::::::::::::::: ::::::: a ::::::: !!!!;;! am i also entail the time period up to March 20, the next week 2 or so? 3 THE WITNESS: Right up until the 29th of 4 April. 5 6 tomorrow or -- HR. JONES: That starts immediately 7 THE WITNESS: It started a few weeks ago 8 and actually just this day loss is sort of a problem to me y so, I mean, that's -- 10 nil. JONES: As I see it we have three 11 alternatives, one we can stay anu continue it tomorrow; two, 12 we can come back; or, three, we can stipulate that it won't la be used until it's completed. You have indicated chat you Li are not willing to uo the third, if I understand you 15 correctly. io nR. POLK: That's correct. 17 MR. GQLD3ERG: Isn't there some late it] plane out of here so you cun switch airlines and got to 19 Minneapolis at midnight or something? You nerd another 2J nour ana a half. You need to be walking out of 'Vsere at 21 7:UU ox. 7:jU. 2 2 MR. POLK: Why don1 c ./:* reschedule 23 sometime prior to trial and come back? 4 ti mi. -JOKES: As opposed to staying 25 ovex/iichu. hoctar, what's your -- " -- imi\:i c A iI7T7TT7ZD7 ii idC i A ' but 2) 922-:. ! o  \<r # ""''VT Jw.7_ ^: = .: ^7 , .. 1 THE WITNESS: Wall, it would be better 2 for me if we did that. If I have to go up there I have to J take a day to go up there, and a day being in session, and 4 a day to get buck. That's three days out of my area of responsibility. Down here, if you only have half a day 6 left on me, why it's a half a day loss. If you have a / whole day, it's a whole day loss. 3 MR. POLK: I have a suggestion. The new J rules of Minnesota Civil Procedure cj.11 for a telephonic 10 deposition, which we did just very recently. Do you haw i 1 any problem with that? 1 will stipulate co the taking of 12 the Doctor's telephonic deposition it a time mutually . is convenient for all parties. 14 MR. j'vJdHSO:J: So will * . 3i. 'Ail. POLK: Commencing with /cur direct it examination and reserving any right to fur c.er 'rose. How 17 is that? '' 13 IS. L.vURA: Sound's good to me. ii> .. MR. POLK: Doctor, would that b- 20 satisfvictory with you? It's a matter of just talking into 2 i the telephone. ^2 MR. HARVARD: One of us could be 'mere to 2 J show aim those documents and you ail can just take L'r e ris.r * T over Lite phone.mat we arc living up to our obligation 2d i eg _.r ciruj the practice of. Law that v/e have shown him th .xuijj.' . Kt pjDbi v (:>L i) '> > c ~f 1 2 i 5 6 7 d y j.0 II XX Xo i4 lb Xo 17 XO iy > 20 21 2j S'i e .> viocanient ana not handed him a script to read the next answer. MR. POLK:- That's fine by me. ... MR. HARVARD: I am just kidding about that, Mike. We will have somebody here to meet with the Doctor and be present with him if the telephone deposition occurs, and I assume that's not a problem for anybody (At this time a discussion was held off the record.) MR. POLK: It is then agreed on behalf of the Plaintiff, that procedure. MR. J.UJES: Finn on ben-.if of Union Carbide. Mu. dARVh ltd: a u s t sc t. h ? c co rd ia clear, J. v vi li L tO Ki*x K c* ._i LI -L -- - iiec Union 'M ret d- is taking gusi L.on r itu t tlUiJ----.7 o r. o any .ttempt to this deposition in any Court for ,.ny puroose oi lowed' 'by I aw until ouch time os cue deposition has been complete anil the examination winch wo intend to conduct in Lite deposition has in fact been accomplished because at this point the deposition is incomplete. ;.'e believe there are mat tors which can inappropriately int-rpreted and we want `ha opportunity to conduct our examination prior to this ,, a epos i 11 on lacing concluded. MU. irOLU: You are not ashing for .my . a.* a /\ l\i..i a nih i `.a A i'., .* ' i,i2) .to i agree meliC Oil Chut. 2 MR. HARVARD: ^c, I am putting my seacement on the record. 4 MR. POLK: The Plaintiff's position is 5 whether it's usable or not in Minnesota- is determined by G the Minnesota Rules of Civil Procedure. 7 d (At this time the deposition recessed.) 9 IQ LI 12 Xt i*; lj lo i/ iij 2J /. ** >\ w 't 2j RhY A. lU-'.iuhDY v.JS- .'Mi 'il > (012) 1 A