Document v6QQzBeqYLKgzOZV6NgOo7Ny8

1 1* 1 STATE OP MINNESOTA . '. DISTRICT COURT 2 COUNTY OF DAKOTA FIRST JUDICIAL DISTRICT 3 4 James W. Manisto and Patricia E. Manistc, husband and wife. 5 Plaintiffs, 6 vs. 7 American Erake Block Corporation et al., 8 Defendants, 9 and 10 Armstrong World Industries (Delaware), Inc., 11 Flintkote Company, GAF Corporation 12 Keene Corporation, National Gypsum Company, 13 Owens-Illinois, Inc., Southern Textile Corporation, 14 T&N PLC, Union Carbide Corporation and 15 United States Gypsum Company, FILE: C5-88-1008 IS Defendants and Third-Party Plaintiffs, 17 vs. 18 r | I Conwed Corporation (a Delaware | 19 Corporation), | 20 Third-Party Defendant. 21 22 Deposition of JOHN L. MYERS, taken pursuant to 23 Notice of Taking Deposition, and taken before Kirby A. Kennedy, a Notary Public in and for the County of Hennepin, 24 State of Minnesota, on the 6th day of January 1989, at Suite 1150, 8400 Normandale Lake Boulevard, Minneapolis, 25 Minnesota, commencing at approximately 9:00 o'clock a.m. m A JWf t * IW T f l 5r " W H '! ' "4 KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012847 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MICHAEL S. POLK, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of 3 HERTOGS, FLUEGEL, SIEBEN, POLK, JONES & LaVERDIERE, 999 Westviev Drive, Hastings, Minnesota 55033, appeared for and 4 on behalf of Plaintiff. 5 ROBERT D. BROWNSON, ESQUIRE, and S. CURTIS ROEDER, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm cf STICH, ANGELL, KREIDLER 6 & KUTH, Suite 120, The Crossings, 250 Second Avenue South, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401, appeared for and on behalf of 7 Defendant Conwed Corporation 8 JOHN P. BORGER, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of FAEGRE & BENSON, 2200 Ncrwest Center, 90 South Seventh 9 Street, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402-39001, appeared for and on behalf of Defendants Armstrong World Industries 10 (Delaware), Inc., Flintkote Company, GAF Corporation, Keene Corporation, National Gypsum Company, Owens-Illinois, Inc., 11 Southern Textile Corporation, Turner & Newall PLC, Union Carbide Corporation and United States Gypsum Company. ' 12 SANDRA J. GROVE, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of 13 MILLER & NEARY, Suite 606, Park National Bank Building, 5353 Wayzata Boulevard, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55416, 14 appeared for and on behalf of Defendant A. W. Chesterton Company. 15 JAMES R. GRAY, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of 16 GILMORE, DeLAMBERT, AAFEDT & FORD, 440 Pillsbury Center, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402, appeared for and on behalf of 17 Defendant John Crane - Houdaille, Inc. 18 . ROBERT E. DIEHL, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of MEAGHER, GEER, MARKHAM, ANDERSON, ADAMSON, FLASKAMP & 19 BRENNAN, 4200 Multifoods Tower, 33 $outh South Sixth Street, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402, appeared for and on 20 behalf of Defendant A.H. Bennett Company. 21 JON PARRINGTON, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of PUSTORINO, PEDERSON, TILTON & PARRINGTON, 200 Cornelia 22 Building, 4005 West 65th Street, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55435, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant MacArthur 23 Company. 24 25 aXrt.tvlvS. ;--*f*t*w ;m ' Allft SS5 nv.-.v ?5?* S' vt r t S KIRBY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012848 3 1 DAVID DIERENFIELD, ESQUIRE/ of the Law Firm of 2 CASTOR/ KLUKAS/ SCHERER & LOGREN, 247 Third Avenue South, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55415, appeared for and on behalf of 3 Defendant Anchor Packing Company. _ 4 LISA R. MICALLEF, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm ef GILSDORF and JACOBBERGER, 1150 One Capital Centre Plaza, 5 186 North Wabasha, Saint Paul, Minnesota 55102, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant W. R. Grace & Company. 6 ROBERT F. HEDRICK, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of 7 JOHNSON, KILLEN, THIBODEAU & SEILER, Suite 611, Norwest Center, 230 West Superior Street, Duluth, Minnesota 55802, a appeared for and on behalf of Defendant American Brake Elock Corporation. 9 RICHARD J. LEIGHTON, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm 10 Of HANFT, FRIDE, O'BRIEN, HARRIES, SWBLBAR & BURNS, 1000 First Bank Place, Duluth, Minnesota 55S02, appeared for and 11 on behalf of Defendant Jamar Company. 12 DALE O. THORNSJO, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of CHADWICK, JOHNSON & CONDON, Financial Plaza, 7235 Ohms 13 Lane, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55435, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant Carey-Canada, Inc., The Celotex 14 Corporation. 15 WAY!!E HERGOTT, ESQUIRE, of the Law Firm of MOSS & BARNETT, 1200 PillsbUry Center, Minneapolis, 15 Minnesota 55402, appeared for and on behalf of Defendant Flintkote Company. 17 INDEX: IS Cross-Examination by Mr. Brownson Page 4 Cross-Examination by Mr. Polk Page 95 19 Cross-Examinaton by Mr. Diehl Page 191 Cross-Examination by Ms. Grove Page 191 20 Cross-Examination by Mr. Thornsjo Page 193 Re-Cross Examination by Mr. Brownson Page 194 21 Re-Cross Examination by Mr. Polk Page 200 Direct Examination by Mr. Borger Page 207 22 Myers Deposition Exhibits 1-26 marked Page 4. 23 Myers Deposition Exhibits 17A-17F marked Page 70 Myers Deposition Exhibit 20A marked Page 76 24 Myers Deposition Exhibit 20B marked Page 77 Myers Deposition Exhibit 27 marked Page 160 25 Myers Deposition Exhibit 28 marked Page 167 < SMS is SB* a* <*p i * s3s KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012849 4 --- 1 (At this time MYERS Deposition Exhibits 1 2 through 26 were marked for identification by 3 the Court Reporter.) 4 5 JOHN L. MYERS, 6 the Witness in the above-entitled 7 matter after having been first duly 8 sworn deposes and says as follows: 9 10 11 BY MR. BROWNSON: CROSS-EXAMINATION f 12 Q. Mr. Myers, my name is Bob Brownson. We 13 haven't been introduced, but I represent Conwed Corporation, 14 which is a third-party defendant and also a plaintiff in 15 intervention, if you understand those terms, in a lawsuit 16 by James Manisto against Union Carbide and other defendants. 17 I am here today to ask you some questions 18 primarily concerning the sale of Union Carbide Calidria 19 asbestos to Conwed Corporation and also some ancillary 20 matters to that. Okay? 21 A. All right. 22 Q. You understand you have been sworn and you are 23 under oath# is that right? 24 A Yes. 25 Q. And I assume that you have been told or have . jrinr cv N tfe iU ttil! KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012850 5 1 been at other depositions so that you know what the 2 procedure is here today. We will ask questions and you 3 give answers. If the questions are not understandable/ 4 tell me before you answer so that cur record shows answers 5 in response to questions that you understood. All right? 6 A. Okay. 7 Q. Secondly/ if you don't understand a question 8 or it's not clear in any way/ tell me immediately. Finally, 9 speak up and don't mumble or shake your head because the 10 Court Reporter can't take down those sorts of answers. 11 Okay? 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. Have you ever had your deposition taken before 14 in asbestos-related personal injury litigation? 15 A. Yes, I have. 16 Q. And on how many occasions? 17 A. On five or six occasions. 18 Q. . Before we get into that, let me back up a 19 little bit and very briefly ask you what your current 20 employment is? 21 A. You mean -- 22 Q. Well, are you working? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Who do you work for? 25 A. KCAD, Incorporated. %Sf& k 31 m A i* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (512) 922-1955 UCAREF00012851 o 1 2. Where is KCAC, Incorporated, located? 2 A. In King City, California. 3 Q. And does that have any affiliation to Union 4 Carbide Company? . 5 A. No. 6 Q. Does it have anything to do with the Calidria 7 mine in King City? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What is that? 10 A. We mine, mill and market Calidria asbestos 11 fibres. 12 2. And would that be the same Calidria asbestos 13 mine that Union Carbide operated until June of 1985? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And at that point was it sold to KCAC? Is 16 that how that worked? 17 A. Yes. ' 18 Q. Now, when did you begin with Union Carbide? 19 A. In 1951. . . t . . 20 0. And how old were you at that time? 21 A. Twenty-two. 22 Q. Were you just out of college? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What education did you have before you began 25 with Union Carbide? i ip * * i KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012852 7 1 A. A Bachelor's Degree in Chemical Engineering. 2 0. Where did you obtain that? 3 A. Purdue University. ^ 4 Q. And then your first employment out of Purdue 5 was at Union Carbide? 6 A- Yes. 7 Q. And maybe if I can shorten this up# when did 8 you start -- I don't know what you would call it# I suppose - 9 at Calidria for Union Carbide? 10 A. I started with the asbestos operation in 1966. 11 Q- From '51 to '66# what did you dc# in a nut 12 shell# at Union Carbide? 13 A. I was with the AEC operations of Union Carbide 14 in Oakridge# Tennessee# in Paducah# Kentucky. 15 Q. Is AEC# Atomic Energy Commission? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What was the other one? That one was at 18 .Oakridge. 19 A. Paducah# Kentucky. 20 Q. Did Union Carbide operate atomic energy plants 21 at those two sites? 22 A. They operated plants for the Atomic Energy 23 Commission# yes. 24 ' Q. So these were actually government plants but 25 Union Carbide was operating them under some contract? % e* .. S&T- ATA r xHfe. * * i KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012853 n 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. During that period of time did you have 3 anything to do with Onion Carbide's asbestos operations? 4 A. Nc. 5 Q. How was it that you cane to be transferred to 6 the -- is it the asbestos division? 7 A. We have always just called it the asbestos 8 group. It was not a division. Part of other divisions. 9 Q. How was it chat you came to be transferred to 10 the asbestos group? 11 A. I was given the opportunity to transfer from 12 the operation in Paducah to the asbestos group in Niagara 13 Fallst New York. 14 Q. And that was in '66? 15 A. In 1966/ yes. 16 Q. Let's start in 1966. Coincidently, that's the 17 same time that the sales to Conwed started or at least that 18 we have records. I think it may have been before that but 19 let's take the year 1966. At that time what did the Union 20 Carbide asbestos group consist of? Were there different 21 divisions or different offices? 22 MR. BORGERs Before you get into that/ I 23 will object to the preamble as testimony by Counsel. 24 MR. POLK: I will also object to the 25 form of the question. >>>.>?- HyfA.V.jir i XS& . i?"Sr Karr .X'.T?.' vvtXv VUT.V. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612\ 922-1955 /- UCAREF00012854 9 1 BY MR. BROWNSON: 2 Q. Let me rephrase the question to satisfy these 3 objecting lawyers. In 1966 what did the Union Carbide - - 4 asbestos group consist of? - 5 A. The mining and milling operation in King City# 6 California: a research and development group in Niagara 7 Falls# New York; and the management of the business was in 8 Union Carbide's corporate headquarters in New York City. 9 Q. Now# ether than the Calidria mine at King City# 10 California# did Union Carbide mine any other asbestos at 11 that time? 12 A. Not to my knowledge. 13 Q. Has it since that time? 14 A. Not to my knowledge. 15 Q. When did the Calidria mine start operation as 16 far as you know? 17 A. In 1963. 18 Q. And was that under the ownership of Union 19 Carbide at that time? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What sort of mine is that? Is it a mine shaft 22 or is it an open pit or what does it look like? 23 A. It's an open pit. 24 Q. Now# when you went to Niagara Falls in 1966# 25 whac were your duties? P aw., frg* vmSS:fm S v s m w # m but >s KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012855 10 1 A. I was called a research engineer, and I was 2 responsible for testing the Calidria asbestos in different 3 applications and also in operating a pilot plant for _ 4 production of a treated asbestos product. ',7 V,*. V.. .V.V* 5 Q. And what was this treated asbestos product? 6 A. It was called RG 244. It was developed for 7 use in polyester resins. 3 Q. Was the Niagara Falls facility the place where 9 the different types of Calidria were tested and designed 10 and that sort of thing? 11 A. Designed would be an improper word. It was 12 applications testing. 13 Q. Applications, okay. I know there were many ) 14 different types of Calidria which you designated by the 15 different numbers, RG 244 is an example, over the years. I 16 am just wondering who made these designations and decided \ 17 their applications and that sort of thing? 18 A.....Is there a question there? 19 Q. Yes. -The question is, is that the sort of 20 thing you were working on when you began in '66? Tr 21 A. I was working specifically on the drilling 22 application for Calidria asbestos. It was not called 23 Calidria asbestos, Union Carbide asbestos. 24 Q. At some point did they start calling it 25 Calidria? * 2 KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012856 11 1 A. The trade name is CaHaria, and I am not sure 2 of the date when it was trademarked. 3 Q. How long were you at Niagara Falls? .: 4 A. Until 1967. . .- 5 2* And where did you go in '67? 6 A. To the plant operation in King City. 7 Q. And what was your title at that point? 8 A. Technical superintendent. 9 Q. How long did you remain as technical 10 superintendent?. 11 A. Until 1970. 12 Q. And then what did you become? 13 A. .Then I transferred back to Niagara Falls/ New 14 York# as the marketing manager fcr asbestos products. 15 Q. And how long did you hold that position? 16 A. Until 1981. 17 Q. And then became what? 18 A- Then I was transferred back to King City/ 19 California/ as product and production manager. 20 Q. And did you then hold that job until Union 21 Carbide sold the King City operation in '85? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Now/ in connection with the deposition here 24 today/ did you bring with you any documents? 25 A. NO. 4 Sw:.' &:* . v.v. j Vf> .;;jf -tie . .v.v.v s`1jV43. <s*&*c % VI* 7k % % $ - r $ is KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES *? (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012857 12 1 MR. BORGER: For the record/ Counsel/ I 2 think that what Bruce Jones has indicated to me is that all 3 the documents which this witness would have had in this 4 file have been produced to you in connection with your5 document request previously. 5 MR. BROWNSON: Just so the record is 7 clear# we die have a document production with the 8 deposition notice/ and that material has all been produced. 9 MR. BORGER: Bruce was handling that/ 10 but it's my understanding from what he has told me that 11 everything covered by that document request was previously 12 provided. 13 BY MR. BROWNSON: 14 Q. Now/ let me take you back to ask you about 15 sales of Union Carbide asbestos to the Conwed Corporation/ 16 which at the time those sales began was known as the Wood 17 Conversion Company in Minnesota. First of all/ when did 18 you first know anything about sales of asbestos from Union 19 Carbide to Conwed or Wood Conversion? What was your first 20 involvement with that? 21 A. I don't remember specifically/ but I would 22 imagine that when Z became marketing manager I would have 23 been aware of such sales. 24 Q. And that would have been in 1970? 25 A. Yes. `.hWV . av.v Z-W4f.v. ;W> - &* '-i- * 2* # KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES 4 UCAREF00012858 13 1 Q. Do you have any recollection, as you sit here 2 today# of you doing anything with respect to those sales to 3 Conwed or Wood Conversion Company before you became - 4 marketing manager? - 5 A. No. 6 Q. Kell# in your technical capacity in Niagara 7 Falls and at King City# were you ever asked to or did you 8 ever do any work with respsct to the use of asbestos in 9 paper or wood products? 10 A. Not that I remember, notspecifically. 11 Q. It sounds like youwereworking mere with 12 plastic products# is that right? 13 A. In the initial -- in my little over one year 14 at Niagara Falls# it was the drilling mode application and 15 the development of this new product. 16 Q. Did you ever at any time in your career at 17 Union Carbide do any technical work with respect to the 18 application of asbestos in paper or wood products? 19 A. Not that I recall. 20 Q. Was there anyone at Union Carbide who was in 21 charge of that particular application for asbestos or would 22 have done that work? 23 A. Yes# there were people in the asbestos group 24 who were working on the paper application. I don't 25 remember anything specific about Conwed. % f 45 & KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012859 14 1 2. Would that have been done at Niagara Falls? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Was all the technical researchwork at Niagara' 4 Falls as opposed to California? ,, 5 A. There was none in California. 6 Q. Let's take the years '63 through '74. Would 7 that research and technical work all have been done at 3 Niagara Falls? . 9 A. To the best of ny knowledge. There may have 10 been some at another laboratory in New York/ Sterling 11 Forest# but I was not involved. And I don't remember if 12 that was any products applicatior. or simply work on the 13 asbestos deposit. 14 2. Was there an actual designation within the in.!. ;i:\ 1 .1 v- 1" rin-it y*oup/ f^r w?nt of a better term/ . \ .j. i.p j -opl? who would work on wood products or 17 paper products applications? 13 A. No/ I remember there was just certain people 19 assigned who were expert. . . 20 Q. Do you know who those werr-? 21 A. Gordon Dickson/ Robert (foolery/ Blair Ingalls. 22 Q. Any others you can recall? 23 A. I don't recall any other names offhand. 24 Q. Do you know what Mr. Woolery is doing at the 25 present time? f *i t *K y. ff . i i i KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (6121 922-1955 UCAREF00012860 15 1 A. No, I don't. 2 0. Is he still with Union Carbide as far as you 3 know? 4 A. No, he isn't, as far as I know. 5 Q. What years or what period of timewas he 6 working in the paper products or wood products applications 7 area? 8 A. Well, all I an familiar with would be in 1966. 9 Q. And that's because? 10 A. While I was there he was working there. 11 Q. Is that true with all three of these 12 individuals? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. They were working in that area whenyou were 15 at Niagara Falls in 1966? 16 A. To the best of my recollection they were, yes. 17 Q. Now, following that time, would you in your 18 various capacities either in King City or as marketing 19 manager get information or bulletins or literature or that 20 sort of thing from the technical people in Niagara Falls 21 with respect to paper products or wood products 22 applications? 23 A. Well, I am sure there must have been internal 24 reports in the papers distributed. I don't recall anything 25 specifically. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012861 H K H IIItlM iV 15' 1 Q. Do you knew the authors of any of those other 2 than these three individuals/ anyone else? 3 A. It seems like there was someone else who had:.4 authored a paper with Mr. Woolery/ but I can't recall-- 5 ancther name was Mr. Reichard. As I recall, he was head of 6 tha R&D group. 7 Q. The entire R&D or just for paper products? 8 A. Well/ I think of the asbestos R&D group. 9 Q. How about a Mr. A. W. Naumam? Does that name 10 ring a bell? 11 . A. I remember the name. I don't recall that I 12 ever met him. It was probably prior to '66. 13 . Q. Do you recall him as being at Union Carbide, 14 but other than that you don't know anything about him? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. We have a report from him which I will shew 17 you in a minute, but it shows at some period of time he was 18 at the mining and metals division at Tuxedo, New York? 19 A. When I mentioned Sterling Forest, I am not 20 sure if they were the same, but that would have been a 21 similar location. 22 Q. That's not Niagara Falls though. That's some 23 other place? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now, the so-called asbestos group, was that ft KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 rc UCAREF00012862 m 'M k v n v k i 17 1 all within this mining and metals division or was that 2 among various divisions or how did that work? 3 A. Whan I began in 1956, i believe it was the y4 nuclear division. No, let me see. That's probably .. 5 incorrect. I think the nuclear division -- the mine was in 6 the nuclear division at the early point, perhaps '62. The 7 asbestos research group was in the mining and metals 8 division in Niagara Falls. 9 Q. And was any part of the asbestos group in the 10 chemicals and plastics division? 11 A. Yes, at some point the entire asbestos 12 operation was in the chemicals and plastics division. X am 13 not sure what years. 14 Q. Well, let's start the actual Calidria mine at 15 King City. When that opened in *63, what division was it 15 in, do you know? 17 A. As I said I think it was the nuclear division. 18 Q. And how longwas that? 19 A. X don't know. 20 Q. What was the next division that itwas in? 21 A. The next one that 1 am aware ofwas when I 22 transferred in 1966. It was in the mining and metals 23 division. 24 Q. And did the mine stay in the mining and metals 25 division or did it move into some other division? ifx *'*** ,* 1 KIRBY A. KENNEDY S ASSOCIATES f 6121 922-1955 UCAREF00012863 13' 1 A. No# the entire asbestos operation moved into 2 the chemicals and plastics division. 3 Q. Do you know when that W3S? >' _ 4 A. No# I don't. I would say late '60s#- but I am 5 net sure cf the date. 3 6 . Q. At the time you became sales manager in '70# 7 was it within the chemicals and plastics division? vfcvK*. J&&VT 3 A. No. I believe it was back in the metal3 i . . VV: H 9 division at that point. M - S.4.V. 10 Q. So it had gone from chemicals and plastics 11 back into mining and metals? 12 A. Yes. . 13 Q. Now# what I would like to do next# Mr. ^lyers# 14 is read to you some names of people who at one time worked 15 at Union Carbide and just ask you if you recognize the name# 16 and if you do I will ask you some more questions. Okay? 17 A. Okay. 18 Q* The.first name I have is Leland S. Kendall# do 19 you know Hr. Kendall? 20 A. NO. 21 Q. Have you ever heard cf that name? 22 A. I don't recall that one. 5* 3f- 23 Q. He was in the chemicals and plastics division 24 and he was an account manager. Does that help at all? *) 25 A. No# I don'trecallknowing him. Hr & KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (512) 922-1955 UCAREF00012864 19 1 Q. He also was located in Minneapolis* Minnesota. 2 That doesn't help you? 3 A. No. _ 4 Q. The next name. -- . 5 MR. EORGER: For the record* 1 will 6 object to the testimony by Counsel to the various 7 characterizations you are making unless ycu want to show 8 the witness a particular document. 9 MR. BROWNSON: Maybe I will do that. 10 For the record* these are Union Carbide personnel business 11 cards produced at the deposition of Warren aimer. 12 BY MR. BROWNSON: 13 Q. Maybe it will be easier if I just show you the 14 sheet of business cards which have been marked as Myers 15 Deposition Exhibit 1. Just so you know* Mr. Myers* these 16 are business cards that a gentleman named Warren Palmer who 17 used to work at Conwed kept in his personal file in no 18 particular order or anything else that we are aware of. I 19 would first ask you about Mr. Leland Kendall? . 20 A. What is the specific question? 21 Q. If you just heard the name. If you have heard 22 the name* I will ask you some more questions about t'hem. 23 The second name on there is John C. Manko. Have you ever 24 heard of him? 25 A. I think I remember that name* yes. --* m .'M i*/ i 'W M f KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (6121 S22-1955 UCAREF00012865 20 1 He is listed as a technical representative in 2 the chemicals and plastics division. Do you know what/ if 3 anything/ Mr. Manko had to do with sales of Calidria .' 4 asbestos to Conwed? 5 A. NO/ I don't. If I know/ I don't recall. 6 Q. How about Richard W. Stcbaeus? 7 A. That was Stobaeus. I remerber that name. I 8 have met him/ yes. 9 Q. He is also a technical representative. Do you 10 know what/ if anything/ he had to do with Conwed? 11 A. No# I have no -- I don't know if he had 12 anything to do with Conwed or not. He was a sales 13 representative for the asbestos products/ but I don't know 14 whether he -- I have no knowledge that he called on Conwed. 15 Q. He is listed on his business card as a 16 technical representative. What would a technical 17 representative do? Is that a sales area or kind of a 18 technical support? 19 A. As I recall/ they were salesmen with technical 20 background. 21 Q. Was some particular technical background 22 required to get that position? 23 A. Not that I recall. 24 Q. Do you know if he was working in sales at'the 25 time you became sales manager in 1970? JVM*W ' fvf*i'.Wr - ms KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (312) 922-1955 UCAREF00012866 21 1 A. Mo. He was the -- he was in the -- well, I 2 started to say he was in chemicals and plastics. This does 3 say mining and metals. When I became marketing manager, he4 was net one of our sales people that I recall. 5 Q. The next individual we have got is Mr. Ncrris. 6 Do you know Mr. Norris? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. I believe it's Tom, is that right? 9 A. Yes, I do lenow Tom Norris. 10 Q. Are you aware of the fact that he had anything 11 to do with sales of Calidria asbestos to Conwed Corporation? 12 A. I don't remember specifically; but he was 13 located in Chicago and he was our midwest sales 14 representative. And with Conwed being in the midwest, I 15 can assume -- only assume that he did have Conwed as an 16 account. 17 Q. Was he working for you in 1970 when you became 18 sales manager? 19 A. Well, the date on this card is August of *70. 20 Q. I see that, although I can tell you we are not 21 really sure where those dates came from. 22 A. I do recall that he was transferred from 23 another division into the asbestos marketing group. I 24 cannot say whether it was 1970 or not. '' ' . 25 a. But he was in Chicago, as you recall it? , ' S V.Vi'. Kit* 3P KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (S12) 922-1955 ' UCAREF00012867 22 1 A- Yes. 2 Q. Was he the head cf that sales office there? 3 A. He was the sales office. 4 Q. It was just him? _. 5 A. I guess he worked out of the Union Carbide 6 office and also out of his home. were a very small 7 group. 8 Q. And he would have the midwest territory which 9 would include Cloquet/ Minnesota? 10 A. As I recall/ yes. 11 Q. And did he just sell asbestos or would he be 12 involved w:. th other union Carbide products? 13 A. No/ he was only selling asbestos when he was 14 working for me. 15 Q. The next name I wanted to ask you about is Mr. 16 W. W. McLean? 17 A. I remember the name. 18 Q- I.should tell you that we don't know that all 19 these people had anything to do with asbestos. 20 A. I don't recall that he was involved with 21 asbestos. 22 Q. You have no recollection of that? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Whether it's asbestos or if he had anything to 25 do with calling on Conwed? s jfi s 1 KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012868 23 1 A. No, I don't know. 2 Q. The next name we have got is Clifford Schvahn. 3 Do you remember anything about him? 4 A. I do remember the name, I think, but' I don't 5 know what he sold. 6 I. He is listed as a district sales manager in 7 Chicago. Do you recall if he had anything to do with the 8 sales of asbestos? 9 A. Not that I recall. 10 Q. The next card, of course, is yours. X wanted 11 to ask you about that. Did you ever visit the Conwed plant 12 at Cloquet? 13 . A. I probably did, yes. I don't recall when or 14 on what occasion. 15 Q. Do you have any recollection of that visit as 16 you sit here today? 17 A. No, I don't. 18 Q. .Do you know if it was just one visit or could 19 it have been more than one? 20 A. I don't recall. 21 Q* Do you know if the visit or visits would have 22 been while you were a sales manager after 1970? 23 A. That would have been my only occasion to have 24 visited, would be in that capacity. 25 Q. So would it be safe to say that whenever that w* r: *5 Sr KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012869 24 1 visit occurred, it was after 1970? 2 A. If he did visit it would have been after 1970. 3 Q. Do you have a specific recollection, as you. ~ - 4 sit here, as to whether you actually did visit that plant? 5" A. No, I don't. No, I don't. 5 Q. Did you ever make sales calls in Minnesota, 7 whether to Conwed or anyone else? 8 A. I probably did. I don't recall any specific 9 calls. 10 Q. When you were a sales manager starting in 1970, 11 were you on the road a lot traveling or did you pretty much 12 stay at King City? T.'.VvCv. f&S 13 . A. Well, I was not in King City. I was in 14 Niagara Falls. 15 Q. Okay. \ 16 A. And I can't recall what percent average of 17 time I trave led. 13 Q. We have some duplication here, but we will 19 move down to the name, of J. E. Crowell. Do you remember 20 anything about Mr. Crowell? 21 A. No, I don't remember that name. 22 23 24 -) 25 Q. It just doesn't ring a bell at all? A. No. Q. How about Thomas J. Hall? A. Yes, I remember that name. He was in the New KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES 093-10*55 UCAREF00012870 25 1 York office, and I think he was involved in the very early 2 days of the asbestos business. 3 Q. Was he still around in 1970? 4 A. Not that I recall. At some point I think-he 5 was in England. 6 "3. When he worked with the asbestos group or the 7 asbestos business, do you knew where he was located? ' 8 A. I think always in New Ycrk, to the best of my .. 9 knowledge. I don't know whether he was ever in Niagara 10 Falls. After I arrived there, I don't recall that ha was 11 in Niagara Falls. 12 Q. So it's your recollection that as of 1966 he 13 was gone or at least not in Niagara Falls? 14 A. I don't know that he was ever in Niagara Falls. 15 Q. Do you know what his capacity was with the 16 asbestos group? Was it sales? 17 A* No, 1 don't recall. 18 Q. He is listed as assistant sales manager, for 19 whatever that is worth. Does that help you recall at all? 20 A. I don't know what he was assistant sales 21 manager for. You will notice that is in the nuclear 22 division. As I say, that was --* 23 Q. The next name I wanted to ask you about is Mr. 24 Bert Barton. Do you know Mr. Barton? 25 A. I remember the name, yes. * KIRBY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES (P\2\ 922-1955 UCAREF00012871 # 25 1 Q. Do you know what he may have had to do with 2 sales of asbestos for Union Carbide? 3 A. I think he was involved with asbestos sales to 4 the paper industry when we were in the chemicals and 5 plastics division. 6 Q. Where was he located? 7 A. As far as the card says# Chicago. I wouldn't 8 remember other than what the card says. 9 Q. Now# do you think or do you know if you would 10 have been in Chicago at the same time as Mr. Norris? In 11 other words# was that a two-man office or would he have 12 been a successor or predecessor? 13 A. No. Mr. Norris was employed by the asbestos 14 group directly after I became marketing manager in 1970. 15 Mr. Barton would have bean prior to that. 16 Q. But you don't know when? 17 A. No# I don't know the dates. 18 Q. Do you know ifUnion Carbide still has its 19 sales office in Chicago? . 20 A. No# I don't. 21 Q. Now# when you began as marketing manager in 22 1970 for the asbestos group# do you recall how much 23 asbestos Union Carbide was shipping to Conwed on a monthly 24 or annual basis at that time? 25 A. No# I don't. VAW.V Mfi KIRBY A. KENNEDY i ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012872 2 7" 1 Q. Do you recall how Conwed ranked as a customer? 2 In other words# was it a big account or a small account or 3 middle-sized# or how would you describe it at that time? 4 A. 1970? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. I don't recall any specific dates when they 7 were using Calidria asbestos# but I would guess they would 8 be a medium to large user compared to ethers. .. 9 Q. Do you know in 1970 of any users which were m 10 larger than Conwed of Calidria asbestos? 11 A. No# I wouldn't remember without reviewing 12 sales data. 13 Q. Is there any sales data available which would 14 indicate at that date the relative size of these accounts? 15 A. I don't know whether there is anymore or not# 16 any files that would have that. 17 Q. What sorts of files were kept at that time * 18 which would show relative size of the accounts? 19 A. ; We .kept -records of sales to individual 20 customers. * 21 Q, And were those kept at Niagara Falls? 22 A. Yes# in 1970. From 1970. 23 Q. Before 1970# do you know where they kept the 24 sales records? 25 A. Not specifically# but I would assume they . * KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (512) 922-1955 UCAREF00012873 23 1 would have been kept in the New York office. ' 2 Q. When you were moved to Niagara Falls in 1970 3 as sales manager, did the office start there with you, so-- 4 to speak, or move with you? _ 5 A. Kell, I was marketing manager and I set up a 6 marketing office in Niagara Falls to market Calidria 7 asbestos or asbestos. 8 Q. Before that, had the marketing office been at 9 the headquarters office in New York City? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. After you set up the marketing office in 12 Niagara Falls in 1970, did it stay there until 1995? 13 A. No. After I moved in 1981, at seme point 14 between '81 and '85 the office was moved to Pittsburg. 15 Q. Do ycu have any idea when that was? 16 A. That would be '82 or '83, something like that. 17 Q. After 1974, in any event? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Would it be fair to say that from 1970 to '74, 20 the marketing office was in Niagara Falls? Is that right? 21 A. What were the dates? 22 Q. 70 to *74? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And from '63 to '70, would it have been in New 25 York City? 4 vw\\\ sgs few KIRBY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 y UCAREF00012874 29"' 1 A. To the best of my knowledge, sales were 2 handled out of the New York office until 1970. 3 Q. Do you know who your predecessor was as 4 marketing manager for asbestos? , 5 A. Yes, Walter Yeung. 6 Q. Is he still around? 7 A. I think. As far as I knew, he is still alive. 8 I don't know where he is. 9 Q. Is he working or retired, as far as you know? 10 A. I don't know. 11 . Q. Now, at any time right up to the present, have 12 you made a survey or review of the Union Carbide records to 13 determine when the sals3 of Calidria asbestos to Wood 14 Conversion or Conwed started? 15 A. No, I have not. 16 Q. Do you have any knowledge, as you sit here 17 today, as to when those sales started? 18 A. NO. 19 Q. Do you know if anyone has reviewed the Union 20 Carbide records to determine when the sales started? 21 A. No, I don't. Other than Mr. Borger said there 22 had been production of documents including invoices. 23 Q. Did you have anything to do with that? 24 A. No, I did not. 25 Q. Do you have any knowledge, as you sit here * AVAT. fevur KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012875 t c a i B t t r f / f i f a" 30 1 today/ as to the quantity or volume of Calidria asbestos 2 that was sold to Wood Conversion or Conwed? 3 A. No/ I don't. .' - 4 Q. Do you have any knowledge/ as you sit here - 5 today/ as to when those sales ceased? 6 A. NO/ I don't. 7 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to why the sales 8 ceased? 9 A. I think they eliminated asbestos from the 10 ceiling tile application.. 11 Q. When you say "they"/ do you mean Conwed? 12 A. Conwed/ yes. ' 13 Q. Do you know when that occurred? 14 A. No, I don't. 15 Q. Do you know why that occurred? 16 A. No. I assume again it was probably because of 17 either the hssalth question or development of an improved 18 formula or a combination of both. 19 Q. When-you began as marketing manager in 1970 at 20 Niagara Falls/ from that point forward right up through ' 85 21 do you remember any particular individuals at Csnwed who 22 you talked to or met with or dealt with? 23 A. No, I don't. 24 Q. Do you remember a gentleman by the name of Hr. 25 Walsh? KIRBY A. KENNEDY S ASSOCIATES fzi?) o??--1955 UCAREF00012876 31 1 A. For Ccnwed? 2 Q. For Conwed. 3 A. No. 4 0. For the rest of my questions here, let's just 5 talk about Conwed. You are aware that it was formerly 6 Known as the Wood Conversion Company? 7 A. Yes. 8 3. It changed its name in '67. Instead of saying 9 Wood Conversion or Conwed, we will just talk about Conwed. 10 When we do that, you will understand it's all the same 11 company? 12 A. Yes, I understand. M Swv Kr. 13 Q. So to get back to my question, you don't 14 recall Mr. Wal3h? 15 A. No, I don't. 16 Q. How about a man named Loren Palmer? Do you 17 recall him at all? 18 . A. No. 19 Q. How about a man named Joe King? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Fred Bergstrum? 22 A. That name rings a bell, yes. 23 Q. Can you recall what it is that you remember 24 about Mr. Bergstrum? -O 25 A. No. I would be guessing. I think -- if I had k KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (512) <>22-'!55 UCAREF00012877 m m ) ***! 1 co guess# I think he had some connection with the R6D grouD 2 or technical group at Conwed. 3 Q. Do you know if ycu ever met tfr. Eercstrum? ^ 4 A. Probably I have# but I don't recall any 5 ceeting# any specifics. 6 2- Do you know where that meeting or meetings 7 would have taken place? 3 A. I would assume at the Conwed office. 9 Q. Do you have any recollection of anyone from 10 Conwed ever coming to Niagara Falls or King City? . 11 A. I don't remember any such visits# no. 12 Q. Did your asbestos group have any sort of 13 get-togethers or meetings or conferences or seminars or 14 that sort of thing for your customers when you would 15 actually physically have your people meet with them? 16 A. You mean such as call reports or do ycu mean 17 visits? 18 Q. Well -- 19 A. Sales calls you.mean? I hope they were making 20 sales calls. 21 Q. I assume that your people were out making 22 sales calls to customers? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. In addition to that# were there special events 25 so to speak wheru/ for example$ Union Carbide would put on & Aivwfcv. v.v.v* V.WAN KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012878 3 3-- 1 a seminar and that sort of thing where- cucLoin;.-...-j jl'l 2 gather and your people would gather? 3 A. I don't tecall anything like that. - 4 Q. Do you know if individual sales office 5 - managers# like Mr. Norris# would do things like that while 6 you were in charge after 1970? 7 A. Well# he would have a customer seminar? 8 Q. Right. ' 9 A. I don't recall that he did# no. He may have. 10 Q. Would there ever be instances# and I am 11 talking about the time period of roughly 1970 to '74, give 12 or take a few years# but that time period# would there ever 13 be instances where Union Carbide would have technical 14 meetings where your technical people would either hava 15 customers come in or would go out to customers to give 16 technical presentations which were not directly a sales 17 presentation but about technical issues? 18 MR. BORGER: Object to the question to 19 the extent that it calls for going beyond the direct 20 knowledge of the witness. 21 A. Well# to the best of my knowledge# I don't 22 recall any seminar just as I don't recall -- I think this 23 is very similar to the prior question where numbers cf 24 customers were brought in for a general technical 25 presentation. I don't recall that. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (512) 922-1955 UCAREF00012879 *> 1 Q. Were there any instanc?s where particular or 2 individual customers would be given a technical 3 presentation of some sort? ' 4 A. Well, that would be part cf a sales visits, 5 although the customer would obviously be more technically 6 familiar with his application than the salesman would. 7 Q. Did Union Carbide have your asbestos group -- 8 did it have certain technical people who would support the 9 salesman and go with the salesman and be available on-call, 10 that sort of thing? 11 A. Ye3. As I recall in that time period of '70 12 to '74, the marketing group was divided into a technical 13 group and a sales group, and tha people located in Niagara 14 Falls would be more technically-oriented and they would 15 make calls with the salesmen, particular salesmen. 16 Q. Were they assigned a particular territory, the 17 technical people? ' 13 A. I think in that time period it was a split 19 between sales and technical. At some later point we had a 20 geographical separation of all the people that worked for 21 me. 22 Q. Let me see if I can understand this. Let's 23 have all these questions pertaining to '70 to *74 time 24 period. During that time period you had the Chicago office 25 which covered the midwest for sales. Now, would all the 2 KIREY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012880 35 1 sales activity be handled out of that Chicago office? 2 A. Yes# as I recall# although at one point floor 3 tile customers were -- may not have been oart of the 4 midwest salesmen's territory. . 5 0. From '70 to '74 as far as sales personnel, who G would have called on Conwed Corporation? Would those sales 7 people all have been from Chicago, I guess, is what I am S really getting at here? 9 A. Well, to the best that I remember, although 10 when I first was marketing manager we did -- as we 11 established, I was in the mining and metals division, vie 12 did utilize chemicals and plastics sales people on some 13 kind of a reimbursement basi3. But I think that anyone who 14 would have called on Conwed probably would have been in 15 Chicago other than this Lee Kendall, who you said was in 16 Minneapolis. 17 Q. Do you recall anything about an office in 18 Minneapolis? 19 A. NO. 20 Q. And as far as technical people who would have 21 had anything to do with Conwed from '70 to '74, would they 22 have all been from Niagara Falls? 23 A. Yes, to the best of my recollection. 24 Q* And would these be certain technical people 25 who were involved with wood products or paper products? A '-"- X* /. U \ KIRBY A. KENNEDY f. ASSOCIATES ffi12) 922-1955 UCAREF00012881 1 A. Yas. 2 Q. could we deduce from that that it would be one 3 of those people that we talked about earlier# Mr. Woolery;.'4 or a couple of the others# Dickson and Ingalls? 5 A. Yes# and then we also did have people who o developed expertise in air monitoring. 7 Q. Well# I will get to the air monitoring in a 8 little while but as far as -- 9 A. That's a technical subject. 10 Q. Other than air monitoring# do you believe that 11 any technical people who called on Conwed from '70 to '74 12 would have been one of those individuals that we just 13 talked about? 14 A. Yes# to the best of my knowledge. 15 Q. Now# if someone at Conwed during that time 16 period had a technical question about the use cf Calidria 17 asbestos in a Conwed product# were they told that they 18 could call Niagara Falls directly and ask a question or 19 would they go through Hr. Norris or how would they do that? 20 A. I would say yes. They would either go through 21 Mr. Norris or# if they had established a relationship with 22 someone in Niagara Falls# they could have contacted them 23 directly. 24 Q. Do you know if any record of such contacts 25 would be kept? * uWmw #;avk; AV.V.V. X S&JN4.V: k vv ,'Av.vn fH Car n o KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ' O? UCAREF00012882 37 1 A. I am not aware of any such records. 2 Q. Would the technical people in Niagara Falls 3 have a log or a diary or records they would keep of - 4 contacts from customers? 5. - A. Kell, most laboratory people do keep record 6 books, yes. 7 Q. Do you know if those have been preserved? 8 A. No, I don't. 9 Q. Would you be able to hazard a guess on that? 10 MR. BORSER: Don't guess. 11 A. No, I just don't know what happened after I 12 left there. 13 Q. Hava you ever seen such a thing? 14 A. Not that I recall. 15 Q. Did you ever see any of the purchase orders or 16 invoices or other documentation with respect to the sales 17 to Conwed? 18 A. Not that I recall. 19 Q. Those, as far as you know, would all go 20 between Chicago and Cloquet? 21 A. And/or the King City plant. 22 Q. And/or King City? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What I would like to do is show you what's 25 been marked as Exhibit 2, which is three documents. The 4 aViVt* s S'?' f* ;R KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012883 top one is a Wood Conversion Company purchase order, and I'll ask you if you have seen those type of purchase orders or if you are familiar with them? A. I am net familiar with the purchase order, no. 3. Tne second page is what appears to be a shipping bill of lading or shipping invoice from the railroad company. Are you familiar with those sorts of documents? A. Yes, I have seen bills of lading before. Q. And does this appear to be one showing shipment of asbestos from King City to Cloquet? A. Yes. Q. Is that the typical kind of ferm that you have seen before or is that different? A. It's typical. I have seen -- I think the design has changed but that would be a typical form. Q. Look at thethird page.That'sentitled "Shipping Memorandum" on Union Carbide letterhead. Can you tell me what that is? A. No, I don't know what this would be used for. I could guess that it would be used for notifying or to advise plant people of a shipment that's to be loaded. Q. It appears to bejust-some Union Carbide internal shipping document. Does that seem right? A. Yes. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 itfcr UCAREF00012884 39 " 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. It looks like it tells what lot numbers to 3 load. 4 Q. Do you know what specific brands or type,,, I _ 5 won't say model number* but ware they designated by number* 6 the Calidri a asbestos that was shipped to Conwed over the 7 years? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Which types do you recall? 10 A. As far as I remember* they always used what we 11 call the high purity pellets* HPP. That's on this. 12 Q. Exhibit 2* the shipping memorandum* shows a 13 shipment of high purity pellets? 14 A. It shows HPP* asbestos HPP. 15 Q. So when we see the designation HPP* that means 16 high purity pellets? 17 A. Yes* that's on Conwed order also. 18 . Q. What sort of containers were those shipped in? 19 A. In paper bags. 20 Q. How big were the bags? 21 A. Physically or weight cr what? 22 Q. Yes. 23 A. Physically probably a little over one cubic 24 foot in volume and 50 pounds in net weight. 25 Q. When you say a cubic foot in volume* what SS KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012885 40" 1 physical dimensions is that as far as height and width and 2 length? 3 A. Probably 24 inches long and 15 inches wide and 4 four or five inches deep. I am only guessing at that. 5 0. Is it a bag that would stand upright? In 6 other words * was its biggest dimension its height? 7 A. Its height was the tallest dimension, height 8 if it was in that position. If it's laying down, the 9 height would be five inches. 10 Q. Or stacked on a pallet. Let's say you bought 11 a 50 pound bag of dog food for your dog. Is it that 12 general type of bag? 13 A. It would be smaller than that, but that 14 general shape. 15 Q. And were these stitched shut cr stapled shut 16 or how were they closed? 17 A. No, it was kind of a self-sealing. It was 18 called a valve-type bag. There was no stitches or sealing. 19 The valve closed after it was filled. 20 Q. Was it a single wall or double wall paper 21 construction? 22 A. It was multi-wall, I think, up to three plies. 23 Q. Was it this brown kraft type paper? 24 A. Yes, unbleached kraft. 25 Q* Unbleached kraft paper? '* An: r.v.v; *.w. ;aw 25 :.i- Jf fk i KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012886 41 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did it carry certain logos on it or certain 3 colors cr that sort of thing cr was it just a plain brown.^ 4 bag? 5 A. It carried a logo# the name of the product# 6 the manufacturer# and net weight. 7 Q. what color was it? 8 A. I said unbleached kraft. That was wrong. At 9 one time and probably during this time period that you are 10 speaking of# the bag was white. It was bleached kraft. 11 The outer ply was white. 12 Q. What color would the ink and the logo be? 13 A. As I recall# it was blue. Also I think I 14 recall that the paper was -- it is called a beater bag. 15 The bag could be thrown into the mixing system. As long as 16 it was an eweous system so you wouldn't have to open the 17 bag# it would dissolve in the pulp# paper pulp. 18 Q. Do you know when Union Carbide started using 19 this beater bag?. . 20 A. Nc# I don't recall any dates. 21 Q. Do you know if they had always used the beater 22 bag for the high purity pellets beginning back in 1963? 23 A. No# I don't think high purity pellets were 24 made in '63. Again# 1 don't recall because I was not out 25 there or not in the operation. I don't recall when high -wawr *pathmimK KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012887 42.. 1 purity pellets were started, and I don't recall when a 2 beater bag was started. 3 Q. Other than beater bag3, dc you knew what others 4 containers, types of containers, the asbestos was shipped 5 " in from '53 up through '74? 6 A. It was always paper bags, although we did 7 start using plastic bags at some point in the '70*s. I 8 don't recall what year. 9 Q. Were these loaded on pallets? 10 A. The bags were loaded on pallets, yes. ' 11 Q. And then the pallets were loaded in box cars 12 and those were shipped out. Is that the way it worked? 13 A. Normally, yes. It could be into trucks. Put 14 cross-country it was normally railroad box cars. 15 Q. Now, did these bags of Calidria asbestos at 16 any time contain any health warnings or warnings of any 17 type on them about any hazards associated with asbestos? 18 A. Yes, they did. 19 Q. Do you know when that began? 20 A. In 1968 we initiated or a warning was 21 initiated. 22 Q. And did that warning change over the years? 23 A. Yes. In 1972 the wording was changed to 24 conform to standards published by the Occupational Safety 25 Health Administration. aVKr H8f '. *9 *fJL KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012888 43 1 Q. And this was imprinted cn each bag? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. In addition to the warningimprinted cn the 4 bag* were there other written warnings that were sent- to 5 customers in any fashion? 6 A. There was writteninformation sent to 7 customers. I don't know whether you would call it a 3 warning. Customers were supplied with information 9 available at different points in time. 10 Q. Do you know how it was that Union Carbide 11 determined that a warning should be put cn the bags in 1958? 12 A. No* I don't. 13 Q. Do you know why it was determined to put the. 14 warning on in *68? 15 A. No. IS Q. Do you know who wrote the warning? 17 A. No. 18 Q. How about these otherwritten materials you 19 have just mentioned? Do you know when those first began to 20 carry some warning to customers about any health hazards 21 associated with asbestos? 22 A. Z have seen one as early as 1968* I think it 23 was dated. In 1970 we began a fairly general program of 24 mailing out information to customers. 25 Q. And whatform would thatinformation take? .Vwr. 4v& I KIRBY A. KENNEDY L ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012889 1 Would it be like a technical bulletin or periodic magazine 2 or what? 3 A. I don't recall. I think there was a general 4 statement issued by the Union Carbide Medical Department/ 5 and I don't recall what other literature or pieces. I am 6 sure it would mostly be published information/ perhaps 7 magazine articles. 3 Q. And were these materials sent to the regional 9 sales offices? 10 A. Well/ the practice/ again/ I am not sure when 11 it was initiated/ was to send these directly to customers/ 12 thase letters/ although the salesmen would be made aware of 13 the same type of information. 14 Q. And who would send them directly to customers/ 15 the Niagara Falls office? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How were the salesmen made aware of this 18 information? 19 A* By written or during meetings. 20 2. Were they shown the same material that went to 21 the customers or were they given -- 22 A. Yas/ they would have been given the assignment 23 through them. 24 Q. Do you know how it was determined that a 25 particular mailing should go out to a customer on a health KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012890 or safety issue? . A. Well, when I was marketing manager when I started in 1970, we would just -- 1 don't recall anything specific, but I am sure we would check but the other technical people in our group and perhaps the Medical Department and perhaps the Legal Department to determine what would be appropriate to send. Q, Now, was this something that you initiated or would you get, for example, periodic bulletins from the * Medical Department, saying here is a new medical development, tell our customers about it? A. I don't recall that we received anything like that from the Medical Department. I would say that it was initiated within the marketing department and perhaps also by the business management people in New York City or in conjunction with them. Q. Well, let's take a medical issue, for example, concerning some health hazard or perceived health hazard with asbestqs. If the medical department didn't send that to you, how would the marketing people find out about that? A. I didn't say they didn't send it. I said they didn't necessarily send us a letter and say you should send this to customers. I am sure they sent us information and we read our own in various periodicals or whatever might be published. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012891 47 1 Q. Would the Madical Department on their own 2 initiative ever send you bulletins or articles or that sort 3 of thing, or would it be upon inquiry from you? , 4 A. Again, I don't recall, but I am sure, they 5 would have sent it independently, 6 0. And on those occasions when the medical 7 department sent you written material concerning any 8 perceived health hazards with asbestos, who would decide 9 whether that 3hould be sent onto the customers? 10 A. I don't think there was an individual who 11 would decide. It would be myself and people working for me 12 and as I say in conjunction with the Medical Department and 13 probably the legal department and our business management 14 people in New York City. 15 Q. During the time* that you were marketing 16 manager, did you ever send to customers medical information 17 received from the Union Carbide Medical Department about 18 hazards of asbestos? . 19 A. Yes, I am sure we did, yes. 20 Q. Do you recall any specific instances of that? 21 A. As I say, they did prepare some type of 22 summary for the mailings we made on whatever they deemed 23 was the appropriate status of health information at the 24 time. 25 Q. Do you remember if any such summaries were `4. re* -Jtit & KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012892 43 1 mailed to customers before 1974? 2 A. As I said earlier/ we initiated this I know in 3 1970.- 4 Q. Do you know -- ,. 5- A. And it became pretty much an annual mailing. 5 Q. Do you knew if any such medical information 7 was sent to customers before 1970? 8 A. I don't know specifically. Again, as I said . 9 earlier/ I have seen a piece of product literature that had 10 a statement about asbestos and dated 1968, but I don't know 11 whether that had general distribution or not. 12 Q. From the time period 1970 through 1974, did 13 you have any information that Calidria high purity pellets 14 could create any health hazard if handled? 15 A. You mean did we test high Calidria asbestos in 16 animals or something? 17 Q. No. I am asking if you had heard at any time 18 or if anyone had told you that you were aware that there 19 could be some danger in using Calidria pellets? 20 NR. BORGER: As distinct from other 21 asbestos? 22 NR. BROWNSON: Right. 23 BY MR. BROWNSON: 24 . Q. I am just talking about Calidria pellets. 25 A* Calidria pellets are chrysotile asbestos* and r H ftftS lIiljtfia ittV ' .ss iV.V`. m i&rax. p ^**y*. r KIRBY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES rfiim UCAREF00012893 49- 1 the information concerned chrysotile pellets being a health 2 hazard. 3 Q. Do you remember that back in '70 to '74? 4 A. No# 1 don't recall when I became aware of that_ 5 but it should have been during that time period# yes. 6 Q. Was any information given to customers during 7 that time period as to how they should handle Calidria 8 pellets to reduce the health hazard? '' 9 A. Of course being pellets# that's a big factor ' 10 in having less dust generated anyway because it's not loose 11 fibre like the conventional Canadian asbestos or other 12 sourses of asbestos where Calidria is the only source of 13 asbestos in a pellet form. Of course, the key to any 14 avoidance of disease with a dusty material is not to make 15 it airborne. 16 Q. Okay. ` 17 A. So these kind of warnings# if you want to call 18 it that# were given to customers to avoid creating dust# 19 and that is what the -- that's what the label said# the 20 warning label on the bag included those words. 21 Q. Now# are you aware of how the Conwed ceiling 22 tile manufacturing process worked at Cloquet from *70 23 to '74? . 24 . A. I don't know what you mean by how it worked. 25 Q. Well# are you familiar with -- ' S $ ye E KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012894 50- 1 A. I think it was Fourdrinier prcc t-i, ind that's 2 all I know and I can't even pronounce that. 3 Q. Did you know at that ciras if that process 4 would have occasion to grind up the Calidria pellets so as 5- to create dust? A. Vi'ell, in order tc us: the pellets they would 7 have to be ground up. This# as far as I knew/ was done in 8 a wet system/ and there should not be any dust if you are 9 grinding in a wet system. 10 Q. How about when the -- 11 A. Especially if they were using the beater bag 12 properly without opening them/ putting them directly into 13 the system. 14 Q. Were you aware of the fact that the Ccnwed 15 ceiling tile system would send the wet slurry through a 16 dryer/ and it would come out in a dry board form? 17 A. Only that# you know/ when you buy ceiling tile 18 it's dry. So I assume it has been through a drying process. 19 By that time the fibres should be bound up with the binders 20 that are in the formulation. 21 Q. Do you know which binders those were? 22 A. The only thing I remember is starch being 23 bound up. 24 Q. Do you know if dry ceiling tile was cut/ 25 sanded or drilled if it would cause the release of asbestos - v.v.v. It i t m \ xa M & a tw m m ^ KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012895 51" 1 fibres into the air from the Calidria asbestos in the tile 2 board? 3 A. I assume that thsre would be fibres released. 4 It wouldn't have to be Calidria asbestos, it would be any 5 kind of fibres that was in there, cellulosic or whatever 6 kind of fibres they would be using. Whether you can 7 distinguish those from the background levels of fibres in a the air, I don't know. 9 Q. Well, whether you could distinguish them or 10 not you were aware at the time that they would be released 11 if those types of operations were performed on a dry beard? 12 A. I don't recall considering that at that time. 13 Q. At the time Union Carbide began to issue these 14 medical warnings, if I can call them that? 15 A. I don't think I would call them that. 16 Q. What would you call them? 17 A. The status of information on asbestos and 18 health. 19 Q. At the time Union Carbide began to issue the 20 status of information on health warnings? 21 A. Again, I wouldn't use the word warnings. 22 Q. Pronouncements? 23 A. Advisories, communications. 24 Q. At the time these things were issued, was 25 there any program in place to review the customers' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES fSI?} 922-1955 UCAREF00012896 y tm > ' < 52 - 1 operations as to see how the asbestos was being used? 2 A. I don't recall that there was any review other 3 than/ as I say, during the air monitoring would be a time 4 whan we were in a customer's plant and see his operation. 5 It was not generally a practice for marketing people to see 6 the plant operations. Usually sales calls would be made in 7 offices. 8 Q. Did anyone from the medical department or 9 anyone else at Union Carbide ever tell you that you should 10 review the customers' manufacturing process to see if dust 11 was being released? 12 A. Did they ever tellus to do that? 13 Q. Right. 14 A. Not that I recall. As I say, most customers 15 we had were -- knew more about the process and asbestos 16 than we did. In most cases our asbestos was replacing 17 somebody else's asbestos. 13 Q. Do you know what knowledge Conwed had 19 concerning asbestos at the time they purchased Union 20 Carbide asbestos? ' 21 A. I am afraid not, no. 22 Q. Were you aware that Conwed did not mine 23 asbestos? 24 A. No/ 1 would not have known that. 25 Q. In determining which warnings to give to 't fen KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012897 53" 1 customers about health issues* would that depend on what 2 type of customer it was? In other words* did you consider 3 some customers to be more knowledgeable or sophisticated 4 than others? ,, 5 A. I w'culd say when we were introducing, for 6 example* this treated product, the RG 244, we would 7 probably make sure that they were aware that breathing 8 asbestos fibres could cause health problems. 9 Q. And you don't - 10 A. But I don't think -- among our major customers 11 w didn't say they should know more* and we didn't tell 12 them anything. The information was issued in a general 13 fashion. 14 Q. So everybody got the sameinformation? 15 A. To the best of my knowledge* yes. 16 Q. Do you recall ever hearing of a disease called 17 mesothelioma while you worked for Union Carbide? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you recall when you first heard that term 20 used? 21 A. No* I don't. 22 Q. Do you recall ever getting any information 23 that chrysotile asbestos could cause mesothelioma? 24 A. No* most of the information was the other way 25 around* that mesothelioma was not thought to be caused by W* teasir*.Tiv.'.vv i $8 KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012898 5'4" 1 chrysotile. 2 Q. Do you recall ever getting any information 3 that it was caused by chrysotile? 4 A. I don't think I have ever seen anything, any 5 kind of a report attempting to prove that mesothelioma was 6 caused by chrysotile, if that's the question you are asking. 7 Q. Yes, it is. Did you ever see any written 8 materials or reports or literature or articles saying that 9 mesothelioma was not caused by chrysotile? 10 A. Again, 1 don't think you get any black and 11 white reports on this kind of a medical or technical 12 situation. Most of tha reports say, you know, based on the 13 epidemiological or animal studies mesothelioma seems to be 14 caused by amphibola variety of asbestos, net chrysotile. 15 Q. And did you ever see any such reports or did 15 people just tell you that? 17 A. I have seen reports, yes. 18 Q. Here those kept somewhere at Union Carbide? 19 A. I don't think there was any formal filing of 20 Q. Would the medical department from time to time 21 send you medical literature to that effect? 22 A. 1 don't recall anything specifically from them, 23 but I assume that they would send things like that. 24 Q. Do you know who at the medical department was 25 sending you this information? v.v.w. W.V.V.* 3S it & v-V KIRBY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012899 55 1 A. Some of it may have come through the 2 industrial hygiene department. Mr. McDaniel and others 3 would; have come, I can't remember the medical director, inr.^- 4 that time period. Carl Dernehl is the name I remember, 5 Carl Dernehl. - 6 Q. I'a3 there a specific medical director just for 7 the asbestos group or was this a ccmpanv-wide? 8 A. It was a company-wide corporate medical . 9 directory. The asbestos business again was very small. We 10 had 50 or 60 employees at the most. 11 Q. What was the name of the medical director? Do 12 you remember? ' 13 . A. Carl Dernehl. 14 Q. He was located where? 15 A. In New York City. * 16 Q. Do you know if he is still with the company? 17 A. I don't think he is. 18 Q. Do you know if he is still alive? ' 19 A. No, I don't. 20 Q. Do you know an individual by the name of John 21 Welsh who was a medical director? 22 A. I remember that name, yes. 23 Q. Do you remember him as being the medical 24 director? 25 A. Is that J. J. Welsh? uuv. 41 9 * KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012900 5n 1 Q. I just have it as John Welsh/ medical director 2 from *63 to *78. . 3 A. That sounds correct/ yes. 4 Q. Do you know if he ever sent you any of this 5 information that we have just been talking about? 6 A. I assume he did/ but I can't remember anything 7 specifically. 8 Q. Do you know if he is still with the company? 9 A. No* I don't. 10 Q. Do you know anything about him? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you ever-recall* while you were marketing 13 manager* receiving medical literature or being tcld or 14 receiving any information that studies of chrysotile miners 15 in Canada showed that they were getting mesothelioma? 15 A. No. 17 Q. How about asbestos factory workers in Canada 13 using chrysotile and contracting mesothelioma? Did you 19 ever hear that? 20 A. Well* I may have heard it. I don't remember 21 anything specifically. Again* you are saying mesothelioma* 22 you are not saying chrysotile was the cause necessarily. 23 Q. Let me rephrase the question. Did you ever 24 receive any information while you were marketing manager 25 that workers using chrysotile asbestos in asbestos textile KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES 9? qoo_io**; ' UCAREF00012901 5T~- 1 plants were contracting mesothelioma? 2 A. I don't know whether it was in that time 3 period# but I have seen information on textile workers# yesr,_ 4 MR. BORGER: The record should, reflect _ 5 that Counsel appears to be reading from a document# and# 6 Mr. Brownson# if ycu have a document which you contend 7 would or should have come to fir. Myers' attention# out of 3 courtesy# you ought to show the witness what you are ,, 9 reading from. 10 MR. BROWNSON: I don't contend that this 11 document should have come to his attention. It's a 12 bibliography of certain medical articl33 which has been 13 marked as Exhibit 6# and I will show it to Mr. Myers. 14 BY MR. BROWNSON: 15 Q. Mr. Myers# why don't you review the 16 bibliography# which is a two-page bibliography# and tell us 17 if you recognize any of the articles on there?' 18 MR. BORGER: Counsel# would you indicate 19 the source of the bibliography? 20 MR. BROWNSON: Pages 142 and 143 of a 21 book entitled "Dusts and Disease"# which is a symposium 22 entitled "Proceedings of the Conference on Occupational 23 Exposures to Fibrous and Particulate Dust and Their 24 Extension into the Environment#" published in 1979 by the 25 Society for Occupational and Environmental Health# U.S. v & ,^ KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES lei?) U CAR EF00012902 5 2'~ 1 Department of Labor. 2 MR. BORGER: You are not contending that 3 any part of that book came out of Union Carbide's file? 4 MR. DROUNSON: Nc. . 5 A. Now/ what was the question? . 6 3. My question is/ do you recognize any of the 7 articles listed.in that bibliography? 3 A. I am sure that I have seen some of them/ yes. 9 Q. Can you tell us which of them that you have 10 seen? 11 A. Not for sure. I remember Dr. Hammond and Dr. 12 Selikoff's relation of cigarette smoking to risk of disease. 13 Q. Do you remember anything of Dr. Hammond and 14 Dr. Selikoff talking about asbestcs exposure and risk of 15 disease? 15 A. If I didn't say it/ that's the one I was 17 talking about/ relation of cigarette smoking to risk of 18 asbestos associated disease/ insulation. 19 Q. Do you remember ever seeing any other articles 20 listed on that bibliography? 21 A. As 1 say/ I am sure I have seen these/ but I 22 don't recall any of the others specifically. Here is one 23 by Dr. McDonald/ "The Health of Chrysotile Asbestos to Mine 24 and Mill Workers of Quebec". 25 Q. Do you remember actually reading that article? rf. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012903 59-- 1 A. I think that I read it. I mean, I have read 2 some similarly titled. Maybe it wasn't that specific one. 3 Q. Do you knew if any information from that 4 article was incorporated into the mailings that you sent to 5 Union Carbide customers? 6 A. No, I can't recall. As I said earlier, I 7 don't recall what information we did send to customers. 8 Q. I would next like to show you what's been 9 marked as Exhibit 7 and ask you if you have ever seen that 10 document? 11 A. Yes, I have. 12 3. And just for the record, it's entitled what? 13 A. "Asbestos as a Health Hazard in the United 14 Kingdom", by I. C. Sayers. 15 Q. Do you remember when you first saw that 16 document? 17 A. I think it was just a short while ago at an 18 asbestos trial. I can't remember -- I think it was in 19 Arkansas when I first became aware of it. It was since 20 1985. 21 Q. So youdon'trecall seeing that from 1970 to 22 1974? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Or before that time? 25 A. NO. av.vv * AM KIREY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012904 sc 1 Q. Do you know if any of the information 2 contained in that article was incorporated into the 3 mailings that Union Carbide sent to customers after 1970?,-: 4 A. I doubt if it was* I have never seen it 5 before. 6 Q* The next thing I want to shew you, it's been 7 marked as Deposition Exhibit 8/ you will be happy to see 8 that this is something authored by you? 9 A* I don't know whether it would make me happy or 10 not. 11 Q. First of all, do you recognize that? 12 A. Yes, I do. 13 Q. And just for the record, what is the title of 14 that publication? 15 A. "Chrysotile Asbestos in Plastics". 16 Q. And were you the author of that? 17 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you remember why that was authored? 19 A. Probably as a sales -- piece of sales 20 literature. 21 Q. And what's the date of it? 22 A. December 1973, and that was presented in May 23 of '74. 24 Q. Do you know if any of the information 25 contained in that publication was disseminated to customers? W : Os kr id s$ KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES f 612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012905 51 1 A. Yes# all of this was. This is what it was 2 prepared for. 3 Q. Do you know if any of it was disseminated to - 4 customers before December of 1973? 5 A. No# 1 don't. 6 Q. In other words# I guess what I am wondering, 7 is this a compilation of previous material that you put 8 together or is this some new material that was put together 9 in *73 and then sent cut? 10 A. Well# there wasn't any new material I don't 11 think. It was just a compilation of existing information 12 on the use of our asbestos products in plastics. As I say# 13 it was prepared for customers so it would have bean mailed 14 to them. 15 Q. I guess my question wasn't clear. I am 16 wondering if any of this information could have been mailed 17 to customers in different mailings before that time? 18 A. Yes# it could. 19 . Q. Do you know.if this was mailed to Conwed 20 Corporation? . 21 A. This particular -- 22 Q. Yes# Exhibit 8? 23 A. No# I don't. 24 Q. Now# they were -- 25 A. I doubt if it would be because they weren't in }?}y /.Vi*. T/>." ` f.W vxv.t * * ' nVu: WAV AW. Brranws iwT!ti^ KIRBY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES fS12} ?22-1955 UCAREF00012906 52" 1 plastics. 2 Q. That's what I was about to ask. They were a 3 wood products company. Do you know if there would be any. 4 occasion that you or Mr. Morris or anyone else at Union 5 Carbide would send this to Ccnwed? Can you think of a 5 reason why that might have been done? 7 A. Yes# because it is a -- it would be a little 8 self-serving# but I think it's a good summary of what . 9 asbestos is# how chrysotile is different and how Calidria 10 is different# and then a summary of the health situation 11 and OSHA standards and Environmental Protection Agency 12 standards. So it doesn't just address plastics in a large } 13 part. A large part of it is directed to general use. 14 Q. The next thing I want to show you is Exhibit 9. 15 A. Is all of this part of the same? 16 Q. I thought it was, but it may not be. That's 17 the way we got it. 18 A. I don't know when I was -- this is not part of 19 my paper. .. 20 Q. You are right# this is not. Let me do this. 21 Let me ask you to look at Exhibit 8 and ask you -- 22 MR. BROWNSON: Off the record. 23 (At this time a discussion was held off 24 the record.) 25 MR. BROWNSON: Back on the record. KIRBY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES f 612 ) 922-19*55 W UCAREF00012907 63 1 BY MR. BROWNSON: 2 Q. I have taken some off of there and ask you if 3 what remains is your complete article or if there is some; 4 that's missing. I see it nds with "Conclusion" and then 5 there is some attachments or appendices? 6 A. The attachments are the tables that are 7 referenced in the body of the report. 8 2. Dees it look like we have the whole body of 9 the report? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And do we have all the tables on there? I 12 think we got through Table 4. Do you know if there are any 13 other ones that are missing? 14 A. 1 don't see a reference to Table 4, but it -- 15 Q. DoesTable 4appear tobe part cf the articla? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Are there any tables after 4 that we are 18 missing there that you can tell? 19 A. No# Z think dust control is the last subject# 20 and the last table is on dust results. To the best of my 21 knowledge that's the complete report. 22 Q. I nextwant to show youExhibit 9 and ask you 23 if you have seen that publication before? 24 MR. HERGOTT: Would you identify it for 25 us? KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ' UCAREF00012908 3-1 v i& w t i m 1 MR. BROWNSON: I am going to ask him to 2 do that* 3 A. Yes# I have seen this before. 4 0. For the record/ what is the title of it? _ 5 n* "Properties of Asbestos Suitable for Use in 6 Callulosic Paper." 7 0. Do you know who the author of that was? 8 A. A. W. Naumann. 9 Q. Is that a Union Carbide publication? 10 A. I don't know whether it's published by Union 11 Carbide/ but he was an employee of Union Carbide according 12 to the title paga. 13 Q. Do you know when that particular thing was 14 published? 15 A. No/ it's not dated unless I would look through 16 each page. 17 Q* I can tell you it's not dated. I am just 18 wondering if you know. 19 A. I know this was prior to 1970. I would guess 20 in the mid-* 60s. 21 Q. Do you know if that was disseminated to 22 customers by Union Carbide? 23 A. Yes# it was. 24 Q. And do you know if it was disseminated to 25 Conwed? t, KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012909 65 1 A. No, I wouldn't have any -- 2 Q. Do you know if there was any subsequent 3 addition or revision or update of that particular article _ 4 which was prepared? 5 A. Net tc my knowledge. Again, I think this was. 6 as I state d earlier, the work in the paper industry was -- 7 I was not directly involved, and most of it was done prior 8 to when I joined the asbestos group. 9 Q. And was Mr. Naumann a guy at Niagara Falls? 10 A. I don't believe he was ever there. According 11 tc this* this work was done in Tuxedo which we discussed 12 earlier* 13 Q. The next one I want to show you is Exhibit 10, 14 and I will ask you if you have ever seen this one before? 15 A. Yes, I have. 16 Q* And for the record, can you tell us what the 17 name of that is? 18 A. "Effects of Cnrysctile Asbestos Additions to 19 Cellulosic Paper." 20 Q. And the author is who? 21 A. Robert G. Woolery. 22 Q. Do you know if that was something which was 23 disseminated to customers? 24 A. Yes, this would have been used for the paper 25 customers. ^. - i-'-SSSr. . " .WAS* ^m .W&. .4, W KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012910 56' 1 Q. Do you know if that would have included Conwed? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. Do you know whether that wa3 disseminated to 4 customers? 5- A. No. It would be the same time frame as 6 Exhibit 9. 7 Q. And that's mia-'SOs? . 8 A. Yes* early to mid-*60s. 9 Q. What if a customer* for example* in 1970 10 requested* and this is a hypothetical question* but what if 11 a customer requested some information from you about the 12 use of your chrysotile asbestos in paper. Would you have a 13 stock of the se things on hand and you would send them one? 14 A. I don't think we would have anything -- you 15 mean today? 16 Q. No* let's say in 1970. 17 A. Yes* I am sure they would have been sent and 18 used in 1970 19 a. Exhibit 11* let me ask you if you have seen 20 that one? 21 A. No* I don't remember that. 22 Q. Is that something which would have been issued 23 from Niagara Falls? Can you tell? 24 A. I can't tell from this* no. 25 a. Does this appear to be in the form of a VWtf 1&&X * y.r. u; fei-r 7m zswr et. S= rt SL KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES /^l?\ coO-iemR UCAREF00012911 67- 1 typical Union Carbide asbestos group information bulletin? 2 A. Well/ as I said# I have never seen it before/ 3 which surprises me. 1 don't remember ever seeing it. 4 Q. Well/ I have got three more exhibits/ which I 5 will just show you now. They are Exhibits 12/ 13 and 14. 6 All three of those and all four/ if you include 11/ have 7 this same format where it says at the top/ "Asbestos 8 Information Bulletin"/ and then over on the side it's got 9 this little logo which appears to be a jumble of asbestos 10 fibres. 11 MR. BORGER: I will object to the 12 characterization by Counsel. 13 BY MR. BROWNSON: 14 Q. I ant wondering if that is a form that you have 15 seen of bulletins/ just that heading and the form? 16 A. NO/ I don't recall any that looked like that. 17 If seems like the ones that I am familiar with would have 18 been -- would have had Calidria in them. 19 Q. Why don't you look at all four of them. Take 20 as much time as you need. What I am going to ask you, can 21 you tell by looking at them when they would have been 22 issued? Why don't you just go through them and see if you 23 can tell that. 24 A. I can't tell you anything different than I 25 already did. I am sure they would have been issued/ I . unu* 3 Sr 5* * if t. J. i KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES 922-1955 UCAREF00012912 6S 1 think* prior to '66 and probably *63, '64* '65. 2 Q. And is the reason you think they were issued 3 prior to *66 because that's when ycu began in Niagara Falls4 and you haven't seen anything like that? 5 A. Yeah* that's the reason I am saying that* 5 although perhaps I would not have seen them even though I 7 started there in '55, but I don't recall a format like that SB a or the particular articles. M 9 Q. Can you tell from the format if those are m 10 releases to customers or if those are internal Union >225 11 Carbide releases for use within the company? 12 . MR. BORGER: I think from the witness's 13 prior testimony he has indicated what he would say in 14 response to that question it would have to be speculation* 15 and I would ask the witness not to speculate. 16 BY MR. BR0WNS0N: \ 17 Q. Don't speculate* but I want to ask you if you 18 can tell if those were something which would go to 19 customers or if those were-for internal Union Carbide use? 20 . A. They would be for customers. 21 Q. The next Exhibit I have got is 15* and I will 2* 22 ask you if you have seen that document before. It's 23 obviously a photocopy. It may have been some different 24 color. I don't know. 25 A. I don't recall seeing this bulletin before. I KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012913 69-- 1 oon't believe the last sheet is -- I don't know whether the 2 last sheet is part of it or not because it uses the trade 3 name Calidria, and the cover sheet does net use that name.. 4 Q. The last sheet i3 entitled "Material Safety 5 Data"# is that right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. But that is a Union Carbide material safety 8 data sheet. Am I right on that? S A. Yes. 10 Q. And you believe that that may not have been a 11 part of the publication# but at least it is a Union Carbide 12 document# is that right? 13 A. Yes. My reason for saying that is because the 14 trade name Calidria is used on the material safety data 15 sheet and net on the cover cf the document unless it's 16 hidden by the photocopy process# and I don't recall seeing 17 this before. 13 Q. Do you know if that is something which would 19 be sent to customers? 20 A. Yes# it's in the form that would be sent to 21 customers. 22 Q. Is that the kind of material that Mr. Norris 23 would have in his regional office in Chicago or would a 24 customer have to go to Niagara Falls or would that come 25 from Niagara Falls? r.f.i* ev.?. & r & KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012914 70- 1 A. Mr. Norris was there in 1970, which didn't 2 establish for sure. This would be in the salesmen's office 3 as well as Niagara Falls. 4 0. Sc Mr. Norris would have access to this type 5 of material is what I am asking? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. The next exhibit is Number 15/ and I will ask 8 you if you have seen that one before. 9 MR. DIEHL: 3cb/ is 15 an asbestos 10 bulletin too? 11 MR. BROWNSON: Yes. 12 A. I don't recall seeing this, the first two 13 sheets. The material safety data sheet is dated September 14 I, 1972/ and I have saen that before. 15 Q. So you don't recall seair.g the first two? 16 A. I don't think these go together. No/ I don't 17 recall seeing the first two. 18 (At this time MYERS Deposition Exhibits 17a 19 through 17F were marked for identification by 20 the Court Reporter.) 21 BY MR. BROWNSON: 22 Q. Let me show you 17A and ask you if you have 23 seen that before? 24 A. I don't recall it. 25 Q. Does that appear to be another Union Carbide A\v\y *T *3 aii * i KIRBY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012915 7 1 asbestos products information bulletin? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. As best as you can tell from looking at it* 4 it's in that pre-'66 format? ,, 5 A. Kell* I think I modified that a little bit# 6 but I am not exactly sure because maybe I didn't see 7 everything in '55 but I certainly don't recall this -- it 8 would be pre-1970 because I was in King City until -- for 3 part of that time. : Kiv 10 Q. Let ms shew you Exhibit 17b. Have you ever 11 seen that before? 12 A. Not that I recall. ) 13 14 Q. Can you tell from looking at that what it is? A. It looks like it's anotherUnionCarbide 15 asbestos products information bulletin which would be sent IS to customers or potential customers* and I think the fact 17 that it is Union Carbide* has it3 New York City address* 18 and it references technical service from Tuxedo* New Ycrk* 19 that it was definitely prior to *66 and prior to the 20 asbestos group setting up in Niagara Falls. 21 Q. Now* these last few exhibits we have seen and 22 the next ones we are going to look at talk about the use of 23 asbestos in the paper industry. Do you recognize that the 24 Conwed ceiling tile plant is a similar industry to the 25 paper industry? KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES f fit 2 1 022-1955 UCAREF00012916 7 2" 1 A. Only the fact that* as I say, I know it wa3 2 done on a Fourdrinier process* and I know that applies to 3 the paper industry and to tha ceiling tile rr.anufacturer and; 4 one other. Asbestos cement production uses that process. . 5 But that's abcut all I know about it. 6 Q. So it wouldn't be surprising then or 7 unexpected that these exhibits that we have just looked at 3 would be technical bulletins or information bulletins which 9 would also apply to the Conwed ceiling tile process as 10 opposed to just making paper? 11 A. Well* they seam to be written for the paper 12 industry. 13 MR. BORGER: Are you talking about 14 exhibits that the witness has not yet even seen* Mr. 15 Brcwnson? 16 MR. EROWNSON: I will withdraw the 17 question. 18 BY MR. BROWNSON: 19 Q. I will show you 17c and ask you if you have 20 seen that one? 21 A. No* I don't recall any in this format. 22 Q. I will show you Exhibits 17D and 17E and ask 23 you if you have seen those? 24 A. No. Aren't these similar to the ones I have 25 already looked at? v.*Mv. m6fe ij&mn & KIR3Y A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012917 73 ' 1 Q. Right. 2 A. Did you want to have IS stapled to 17? 3 . Q. The same question would apply to those that 1:1. 4 asked you about earlier. As to 17D, E and F, they appear 5 to be publications sent tc customers? 5 A. Yes# ana we have already gone through these. 7 Q. Well , not C, D and C. We have been through 3 ehe other ones. 9 A. Is that any different, 14 and 17E. 10 Q. I don't know if they are different or not. 11 A. Nc, I don't recall seeing them. 12 Q. Let me show you Exhibit 18 and ask you ifyou 13 know what that is? 14 A. Nc, I don't. Well, I can read it, if that's 15 what you -- if that's the question. 16 Q. I don't need you tc read it. I am just asking 17 you if you recognize or have seen that before. 18 A. No. 19 Q. Can you tell megenerally whatit is? In 20 other words, is it a technical bulletin from Union Carbide 21 or do you have any idea what it is? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Can you tell from looking at it if it talks 24 about Calidria asbestos or any application of Calidria 25 asbestos? . Wk ::;rt &w R? S & KIRBY A. KENNEDY A ASSOCIATES 077-1955 UCAREF00012918 7 *r ' 1 A. Ona line says, "Reduction of Solid Losses 2 Using High Purity Asbestos." it doesn't identify the 3 source of asbestos. ... 4 0. So you can't tell by looking at it if it's 5 first a Union Carbide Calidria asbestos? 6 A. Wc# I can't. 7 Q. Let me show you Exhibit 19 and ask you if you 8 have seen that? 9 A. No# I haven't. 10 Q. Again# can you tell by looking at it if it 11 refers to the use or application of Union Carbide Calidria 12 asbestos? 13 A. Again# the only reference I see is high purity 14 asbestos. I identify it with Union Carbide. 15 Q. Let me now show you Exhibit 17F and ask you if 16 you have ever seen that before? 17 A. No# I don't recall seeing it before. 18 Q. Look on the last page there. You will see 19 it's signed by Thomas Hall. Is that the same Thomas Hall 20 we mentioned earlier when I showed you that list of 21 business cards? 22 A. I assume that it is. 23 Q. And I have forgotten# did you know Mr. Hall or 24 know anything about him? 25 A. I don't know that I have met him. I think I 4. 1jyXiCUtt M f t W M i't iM H - ' f t KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES fei2> 922-1955 UCAREF00012919 75- 1 have talked to him. When I said earlier I thought he had 2 been in the London office -- 3 C. Does this -- . 4 A. -- also in the New York office. 5 0. Does this document in any event appear to be 6 on Union Carbide letterhead? 7 A. Yes, it does. 8 Q. It appears to be a letter from Mr. Hall at 9 Union Carbide to Nr. Walsh dated .March 26, 1955? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And the next thing I want to show you is 12 Exhibit 20 and ask you if you recognize that? 13 A. Yes, I have seen this before. 14 Q. What is that? 15 A. It's an article out of the October 1971 issue 16 of "Asbestos". 17 Q. Is that something that was sent by Union 18 Carbide to customers? 19 A. Well, this is an excerpt from the magazine. I 20 don't know how many customers were sent the magazine, but I 21 am sure that most customers would have been sent a copy of 22 the magazine or a reprint of the article. 23 Q. Now, with my copy of that I had stapled to it 24 this, which is actually two articles. Does that seem to be 25 the article to which Exhibit 20 or articles to which Ifor i %s KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (312) 922-1955 UCAREF00012920 75 1 Exhibit 20 refers? 2 A. NO. 3 Q. Is that something different? 4 A. Yes. - i.Ym 5 (At this time MYERS Deposition Exhibit 6 20A was marked for identification by the 7 Court Reporter.) 8 BY MR. BROWNSON: 9 Q. Let's take a look at what's been marked as 10 Exhibit 20A / and I will ask you if you recognize that? 11 A. Ye3/ I have seen this or something similar# 12 maybe not thi3 particular issue. :5sic *r, 13 Q. Actually if I look at it carefully it seems to 14 be two diff erent articles/ but it's by the same -- 15 MR. BORGER: You should split these 16 apart/ Bob. 17 A. It's two different booklets published by the -55 18 AINA. 19 Q. Let's start with 20A/ published by the 20 Asbestos Information Institute# is that correct? 21 A. No# the Asbestos Information Association of 22 North America. 23 Q. Was Union Carbide a member of that? 24 A. Yes. 1 25 Q. Do you know if that particular article# 20A# *6 4 fi KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES 15' (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012921 77 ' 1 was sent, to Union Carbide customers? 2 A. I think I could say yes. This would have been 3 the type of thing sent to customers in cur annual mail list. 4 Q. Do you know if it was sent to Conwed? 5 A. I can't swear to that. 6 Q. Do you know if that particular publication* 7 20A* deals with the protection of workers or healoh hazards 8 to workers in a manufacturing plant? 9 A. The title of it is "Protecting the Asbestos 10 Worker*. 11 Q. Do you know if that refers to end-users cf 12 asbestos products or people in manufacturing plants? . 13 . A. Well* if you want me to read the opening 14 sentence* it says* "The asbestos industry has invested 15 millions cf cellars in equipment and rechnigues to prevent 16 the inhalation of asbestos dust by workers involved in the 17 mining and milling of asbestos and in the manufacture cf 18 asbestos-containing products." 19 Q. So based on that* does that appear to be an 20 article which would be sent out by Union Carbide to 21 customers who used your asbestos in their manufacturing 22 processes? 23 A. 1 think I said that earlier* yes. 24 (At this time MYERS Deposition Exhibit 25 20B was marked for identification by the V*v 3? KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES f612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012922 / _ 1 Court Reporter.) 2 BY MR. BROWNSON: 3 Q. Let's look at 20b and I will ask you if you 4 recognize t hat? 5- A. Yes, I have seen this cr again something 6 similar. 7 Q. Again, that's a publication of the Asbestos 3 Information Association? 9 A* Yes. 10 Q. That's the same group as 20A? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you know if that was something which Union 13 Carbide mailed to its customers? Ms vveevS Sas 14 A. Yas. 15 Q. Now, let ms switch to a different topic, and 16 that's the topic of air testing. It's my understanding at 17 some point in the early 1970s Union Carbide asbestos group 18 started a program where you would conduct tests at your 19 facilities? 20 A. Air monitoring, in 1971. 21 Q. You began the actual monitoring in 1971? 22 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 23 Q. Whose idea was that? 24 A. Well, it was probably done again in =0 25 association with my group, my people. Again I don't XIRBY A. KENNEDY 6 ASSOCIATES rci3^ Q22-1955 UCAREF00012923 73T 1 remember whether the Union Carbide industrial hygiene group, 2 I am sure they were involved with our decision, and again 3 the medical and legal and business departments in corporate 4 headquarters would have been involved in making the 5 decision :o go ahead with that program. . 6 Q. How long did this decision making process take 7 in deciding to implement this air monitoring program? 8 A. You mean in days or months or years? - 9 2. Well, yes. 10 A. I don't recall. Ycu mean from when the idea 11 was presented until we took our first sample? 12 2. Right. 13 A. No, I don't recall. 14 2. why was this program started? 15 A. We felt like it would be a valuable tool to 16 provide our customers with as to whether or not they were 17 creating a dust inhalation problem for their employees. 18 Q. Was there a recognition at that time in 1971 19 within Union Carbide that use of the Calidria asbestos 20 could create a dust hazard sufficient to harm health? 21 A* I don't know whether you would call it a 22 recognition. Again, Calidria asbestos is chrysotile 23 asbestos, and I think it's an accepted fact that long-term 24 excessive inhalation of chrysotile asbestos can cause lung 25 problems. rsn*. ivaiR O t C I M H < * * * * >-i > V & f KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012924 80 1 2. Is that the reason that the air testing 2 program was developed? 3 A. No, it was developed, as I say, as a tool for4 the customer whether or not he had excessive airborne 5 ievfcls of asbestos fibrss. 6 Q. And to knc ; whether his srrployjes vers subject 7 to any health hazard as a result of that? 3 A. Subject to inhaling asbestos fibres, it may be 9 a health hazard in some employees. 10 Q. If there is no health hazard, why would you 11 care if they inhaled the fibres or not? 12 A. I said there may be a health hazard. 13 Q. So really the ultimate point behind it was to 14 let customers know if any of their employees had rhe risk 15 of a health hazard from inhaling dust? 16 A. No, I don't think you can say by looking at 17 the dust counts whether or not an employee is at a health 13 risk. Our purpose in conducting the air monitoring was to 19 provide the customer with the information to enable him to 20 correct a condition that might be causing excessive 21 airborne concentrations of asbestos fibres. You can have 22 concentrations and nobody breathing it. So you don't 23 really associate it with the worker. You try to get the 24 environment and the conditions down to what then was an 25 acceptable level. if sac* 22 ,vc KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012925 91- 1 Q. And the reason you wanted it at an acceptable 2 level was so that the worker wouldn't contract an asbestos 3 related disease. Would that be correct? 4 A. That would be, yes. 5 2- Who did this air monitoring? In other words, 5 was there a special air monitoring team that would go 7 around or did each regional cffico have one or how did that 8 work? 9 A. The 3ir monitoring was conducted all out of 10 Niagara Falls by a single person. And then I think we had 11 two or three doing it, those who had been trained in a 12 NIOSH training session for collecting and analyzing air 13 sampJL e s. 14 Q. Do you know who those people were? 15 A. The first one I think that we used was Blair 16 Ingalls and other people through the years, Glen Spencer, 17 Ed Kleber, Fred Smith. Those were people that, as I say, IS r.ad been trained to count the fibres. In some cases we -- 19 the salesmen were trained in collecting the samples# but 20 not in analyzing the samples. In most cases, one or more 21 of these people would be sent to a customer location with 22 the salesman. 23 3. Were these done at all customer locations? 24 A. It was offered to all customers,. I am not 25 sure that all of them accepted our offer. .** m& KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012926 9 2-' I Q. Was it required of customers if they purchased 2 your Calidria asbestos that they have this air monitoring 3 done? 4 A. It was not required. S- - Q. Are you aware of the air monitoring which was 6 cone at the ConweJ plant in Cloquet? 7 A. No, I am not. 3 Q. I want to show you Exhibit 21, which is a 9 report dated August 28, 1972, entitled "Airborne Dust 10 Counts for Conwed Corporation, Cloquet, Minnesota", by the 11 Union Carbide mining and metals division, and ask you first 12 of all have you have seen that document before? 13 A. All I can say is I am sure that I have seen it 14 as I have seen most of these because they would have 15 usually gone -- I would have seen them before the report 16 was sent to the customer. But this specific on* I can't 17 swear that I have seen it. 18 Q. Why would you review it before you would send 19 it to the customer? ....... . 20 A. To see what the fibre counts were. 21 Q. And what would you look for in reviewing the 22 fibre counts? 23 A. I would look for the numerical values. 24 Q. Has there a certain threshold limit value or 25 threshold that you had in mind that you would look for? * v/.'Jfft i'.ltS'.*. ir.r.tr V.'.V.W v/.v.v r.vi*. .^js; a* 7 ./ & i s KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES f612} 922-'95* UCAREF00012927 83-- 1 A. No# this was not a -- o weren't a regulatory 2 group or anything, I think that accepted levels at that 3 time by the ACG industrial hygienist v-re about five fibres 4 per CC. 5 Q. Now W2 are talking about August 23 of 1972? 6 A. Okay, That would be OSHA standard then. 7 v. Right. Do you knew what the acceptable OSHA 3 level was at that time? 9 A. I think that was five when it was first 10 published# and then changed to two in 1976. So obviously 11 if we saw anything as high as five# vs would make sure that 12 the customer recognized that. 13 Q. How about if you saw anything as high as two? 14 . A. I don't know. I don't remember whether we had 15 any criteria. 16 Q. And -- 17 A. This was sent to the customer so he could make 18 his own evaluation. 19 Q. Was any information given to the customer as 20 to what the threshold limit values were that you were 21 looking at and that they ought to look at? 22 A. Well# we gave all of our customers copies of 23 the OSHA standards; but# of course# again someone as large 24 as Conwed# a major user# would have these things on his own 25 without us providing ~ we would have provided the OSHA ;:;v. *.vfv & v Si b m & KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012928 ?4 1 standards in our annual mailings. 2 Q. What would Conwed have? 3 A. OSHA standards. 4 Q. How do you know that? 5 A. I don't know that. . --- .- - 6 <2. Let's look at Exhibit 21. First of all , does 7 that appsa r to be the report of the air monitoring cone at 8 Conwed on August 28? 9 A. Yes, it does. 10 Q. And that's -- I see, is it Mr. Kleber? 11 A. Kleber. 12 Q. Is that Ed? 13 A. Ed, yes. 14 Q. Ed Kleber, he was involved, t'as he the person 15 that you mentioned earlier that was trained to count fibres? 16 A* Yes. 17 Q. I see we have Mr. Kleber and Mr. Norris on 18 this particular report. Can you tell from that or do you 19 know which of those people actually did the testing? 20 A. I would say Mr. Kleber. You can't tell from 21 that but Mr. Kleber would nave done the testing, would have 22 collected the samples. 23 Q. Where were the samples analyzed? 24 A. In Niagara Falls. 25 Q. Do you know what apparatus was used to analyze * KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012929 <*y$V9 VNL  1 the samples? 2 A. I can read this to you if you would like. 3 It's in the report, " Apparatus, Procedure". 4 Q. Excuse me. 5 A. The report has a section on apparatus and 6 procedure, if you would like for me tc read that. 7 Q. What I am wondering is are you familiar with 8 the analysis technique used there? 9 A. I ara not an expert, no. 10 Q. Who was the person at Niagara Falls in *72 who 11 would have actually analyzed it? 12 A. I would assume cr I think that Mr. Kleber 13 would have counted the fibres ir. the supervision cf Mr. 14 Ingalls. 15 Q. Do you know what the capacity of the 16 particular instrumentation that Union Carbide had at that 17 time in Niagara Falls was? 18 A. I don't understand the question. 19 Q. Do you know how small a fibre the apparatus 20 that Union Carbide had at that time could detect, or to put 21 it another way, what was its limit of magnification? 22 A* Well, it was a 400 power microscope. 23 Q. Was that a polarized light microscope, do you 24 know? 25 A. Yi.s. Well, it was trace contrast illumination. KIRBY A. KENNEDY 6 ASSOCIATES fGI?) UCAREF00012930 R M S iM W r*' 1 1 I don't know whether that'-- hh~ same as polsriz-td light or 2 not. 3 Q. It was 400 power? . 4 A. Yes. If you want to knew about the apparatus, 5 as I cay we can read this. 6 Q. I am wondering if you have any further 7 information other chan what's contained there? B A. Me personally? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. No. 11 Q. Do you know if Ccr.wed had any electron 'mi fwii* W& r.wv.; Ip il 12 microscopes at that time? . 13 A. No, I don't. 14 Q. Dc you know if they subsequently acquired any? 15 A. No, I don't. 16 Q. Do you know if they subsequently used any to 17 analyze these air monitoring samples from customers? 18 A. . . ..Conwed? . . 19 Q. I meant Union Carbide. 20 A. Give me the question again. .. ''Si .4S6k 21 Q. Do you know if Union Carbide at any time used 22 any electron microsopes to analyze air monitoring samples 23 from customers? k tv 24 A. I don't think prior to say 1980 or something J 25 like that. There may have been some work with electron m KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES f 6121 922-1955 *` UCAREF00012931 3~r* 1 microscopes. 2 Q. The beginning of 1930? 3 A. I don't know the date# but there wouldn't have 4 been anything pricr to that. . 5 Q. Do you know why they went to the electron 6 microscope in 1930 or thereabouts? 7 A. Who? 8 Q. Union Carbide? ' 9 A. I didn't know they did. 10 Q. I thought you mentioned they may have started 11 using electron microscopes in 1980. 12 . A. They may have started/ but net for this type 13 of air monitoring. 14 0. As far as you know/ ohey n:vc: used electron 15 microscopes to analyze these air samples/ is that right? IS A. Not with the customers. There are no 17 . standards. This is the OSHA required procedure. IS Q. Let's look at the third page here/ and over on 19 the right-hand side we have three columns of figures. Can 20 you tell us what each of the three columns is? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Let's start with the first one. 23 A. The first one says asbestos fibre count fibres 24 per milliliter greater than five microns. The second one 25 is the total fibre count on fibres per milliliter greater .W > 5 KIRDY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES (612> 922-1955 UCAREF00012932 WMJSI V es-- 1 than five microns. The last column says total dust 2 millions of particles per cubic foot. 3 3. Do you know why it was that the fiva micron 4 size was used at that time? 5 A. That's the OSHA standard. 6 Q. Did you have any information in 1972 that 7 fibres of a size smaller than five microns cculc be * 8 hazardous to health? 9 A. In what time period? 10 Q. 1972. . 11 A. No. 12 Q. Have you at any time acquired that information? 13 A. And what was the question? 14 Q. That fibres shorter than five microns can be 15 hazardous to health? 16 A. No# it's really just the opposite. Most of 17 the recent studies show that short fibre chrysotile 18 asbestos# this is basically less than five or ten microns# 19 is probably innocuous. 20 Q. Do you know -- 21 A. I did not have that knowledge at thi3 time. 22 Q. Now# do you know how the differentiation was 23 made in this analysis of the Conwed air monitoring samples 24 between total fibres and asbestos fibres? 25 .A. That is the experience of the person looking m 1 f* c KIRBY A. KENNEDY 5 ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012933 5 9- 1 through the microscope to distinguish between asbestos 2 fibres and cellulose or other. 3 Q. Dc you know if that was don particularly or.-4 were there sustaining techniques used? 5 A. It would say in here if we had used the 6 sustaining technique. I don't believe it says that. This 7 just says the judgement of the operator. 8 Q. Is there any differentiation made among 9 asbestos fibres as to the type of asbestos fibre? 10 A. In this? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. No. 13 . Q. Sc when it says asbestos fibres/ would that 14 include total asbestos fibres whether it's chrysotile or 15 anything else/ or were they just looking for chrysotile 15 fibres? 17 A. This says that the asbestos fibrecounts is 18 any material having a ratio of three or greater/ which in 19 the judgement of the operator could possibly be asbestos. 20 It doesn't distinguish between anthophyls and chrysotile. 21 Q. Do you know what it was that the operator used 22 to differentiate between asbestos and non-asbestos? Was it 23 simply the aspect ratio? 24 A. No* his judgement# experience. 25 Q. Would that include such things asshape of .T.-3T.Y "ft 'V a KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (512) 922-1955 U CARE F00012934 90 1 fibre? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. So, in other words, it would be something more 4 than simply a mathematical calculation of the aspect ratio 5 of the fibre? 6 A. Yes. 7 2. The next exhibit I have got is 22, which are 3 some handwritten notes which appear to be related to 21. 9 Can you toll us what that is? IP ' A. We had a practice of -- I assume that's what 11 this is for. This is a memo from Ed Kreber to Paul 12 McDaniel who was the industrial hygienist in the 13 corporation. We had a practice of having Mr. McDaniel 14 analyze a certain portion of our samples as kind of a 15 quality control check. This looks like a cover letter 16 transmitting those samples. .17 Q. Who is Mr. McDaniel? 18 . A. He is the corporate industrial hygienist. 19 Q. He is at Niagara Falls? 20 A. New York. 21 Q. Would he review these results before they 22 would be sent out to customers? 23 A. No, 1 don't think so, not necessarily. 24 Q. He was just involved with the actual work? 25 A. No, he was the corporate industrial hygienist. Jhlfl'i *. % KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012935 91 1 2. I guess I am wondering why would he be 2 involved with this? 3 A. Can you read my answer back or do I give it 4 again? 5 UR. EORGSR: I believe he did answer 6 that question. It was a quality control check. 7 BY MR. BROWNSON: 8 Q. Was it a check of the Union Carbide sampling 9 and testing procedures or a check of the Conwed 10 manufacturing procedure? 11 A. It had nothing to do with Conwed. It was a 12 check of the samples that were collected. 13 . Q . The next exhibit I am going to show you# I am 14 going to skip ahead to 25 and show you this exhibit and ask 15 you if you knew what that is? 16 A. Well# first of all# it's a letter from Mr. 17 Kreber to Ed McGillivray of Conwed Corporation, and it's 18 appened to the letter -- is manufacturers -- wait a minute. 19 What's appenaedended to it doesn't match the letter. He 20 says he is appending literature on air monitoring equipment 21 and Conwed has considered setting up its own test 22 monitoring operations. 23 Q. Attached to that is a whole bunch of 24 handwritten notes? 25 A. What the enclosure looks like is the .`SUMr. os.v*r w* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (512) 922-1955 UCAREF00012936 1 handwritten notes taken at the time of the dust sampling 2 and the raw data. That's the word I was trying to think of 3 It looks like the raw data. So I would say this doesn't go 4 with that letter. 5 Q. Eut the attachments to the letter appear to be 6 the raw data for the air monitoring at Conwed? 7 A. Yes, conducted on August 9 and 10. 8 Q. As far as that air monitoring goes, you 9 mentioned, as you saw in Exhibit 21, you used two units of 10 measurement. One is fibres per cubic foot and the other is 11 fibres per milliliter. Is that right? 12 . A. Yes. 13 2. And are those units cf measurement done over 14 any particular period of time? In other words -- 15 A. Hell, do you mean are the samples collected 16 over a period of time? 17 Q. Let me ask you this. Are you familiar with 18 the term called an eight hour time weighted average? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you know if those are eight hour time 21 weighted averages? 22 A. Again, I can read you the times for each 23 sample. The first one is 7.7 minutes and the two 24 environmental samples were collected for 114 minutes, those 25 would only be two hours. What was done, at least in the ' * .> m t. ; { MU; HflUNk f f f U S M 1**"' * :'V KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ... UCAREF00012937 93 1 early days of our sampling program/ was to collect 2 environmental samples and then use those results along with 3 the personal samples to develop what would be an eight hour 4 time weighted average. 5 Q. And what I am wondering are the final figures 6 which come out in the last three columns of the report/ 7 have those been converted to eight hour time weighted 8 average? 9 A. NO. 10 Q. Look at Exhibit 26, which is the letter with 11 all those attachments. Do those calculations convert the 12 raw data into an eight hour time weighted average? 13 A. I don't knew whether there are any 14 calculations in here. Oh, do they convert it tc sight hour 15 time weighted averages? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. No. 16 Q. Are you aware of any figures anywhere that 19 convert the air monitoring done at Conwed into an eight 20 hour time weighted average? 21 A. Not inthisreport. 22 Q. Do you know of any anywhere else? 23 A. I haven't seen any of. the other reports. If 24 we did any other air monitoring for them, I don't know. 25 ,Q. You are not aware of any personally? A'ALUU iTr.vvx.vE. ^..79 EH m vwjrr. Hi* s 9 l KIRBY A. KENNEDY S ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012938 94- 1 A. NO. 2 Q. Let me show you 23. Have ycu ever seen that 3 before? 4 A. I don't know whether I have seen this specific . 5 letter# but I am well aware that, we did this# yes. 5 Q. When you say well aware you did tr.is# doing 7 what? 3 A. It's a letter to Conwed Corporation from Mr. 9 Kleber requesting permission to use the air monitoring data 10 without identifying the source of the data. 11 Q. And do you know if it was subsequently used in 12 some fashion by Union Carbide? 13 A. No# I don't. 14 Q. Do you know if there was aver any publication 15 put out disseminating it which incorporated the Conwed data? 16 A. No# I don't know if there were any 17 specifically incorporating the Conwed data. 18 Q. Do you know if Conwed ever agreed to do that? 19 A. No# I don't. 20 Q. The reason I ask that is at the bottom you are 21 asking for their agreement. Is that right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Well# Exhibit 24# Z believe# is the samething 24 which appears to have a Conwed agreement on it. Would that 25 be your analysis of it? /; KIREY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012939 95 1 A. That locks lika it, yes. That's a signed or a 2 copy of the signed letter agreeing to let us use the data. 3 Q. It's got a received stamp on the top so it - . 4 looks like it was received back at Union Carbide? 5 A. Yes, September 25, 1972. utint 6 Q. Exhibit 25 is a cover letter which, I think, 7 went with the report. Why don't you look at it and tell me. 8 A. Yes, this is a cover letter. 9 Q. The report being Exhibit 21? 10 A. Cover letter from Mr. Kleber to Mr. Crewson of \\y.v.; XLv?ir i&w 'Wt m 11 Conwea, September 1, 1972, which would have had as an .St 12 enclosure Exhibit 21. 13 Q. Do you know if Conwcd was ever told by anyone 14 at Union Carbide that exposure to Calidria chrysotile could 15 cause mesothelioma? 16 A. No, I don't. 17 MR. BROWNSON: That's all the questions & **- 18 I have got. Thanks. 19 (At this time a brief recess was taken.) 20 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. POLK: 24 Q. Mr. Myers, first of all, you mentioned earlier, 25 I think, an Arkansas case that you testified in. When was KIRBY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012940 i 1 that trial? 2 A. I don't recall the date. 3 Q. What year was it in? 4 A. I don't recall the year. - 5 Q. Was it in the '30s? 6 A* Ye3, '30s. 7 Q. And what did the case involve generally? 8 A. It was a worker who had contracted -- it was 9 an asbestos related lawsuit. Could I ask who you represent? 10 Q. I represent the Plaintiff# sir. My name is 11 Michael Polk . You also indicated other testimony. Did you 12 give any testimony in the '70s in an asbestos personal 13 injury related case or death case? 14 A. By testimony, do you mean a deposition as well 15 as a trial? 16 Q. That's correct. 17 A. No, I think my first deposition was in 18 the '80s* 19 Q. So as far as you can recollect, all of your 20 testimony in any asbestos related litigation was post 1980? 21 A. To the best of my recollection, yes. 22 Q. What other venues have you given testimony in 23 by way of deposition or trial? 24 A. What do you mean by venues? 25 Q- What other states? TSfc fju XW. 3 < is H. & ft. t>:- )fc *j - e & B KIREY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (6121 922-1955 UCAREF00012941 97- 1 A. States: South Carolina# Trxas, Arkansas# 2 Oregon. I can't recall any others. 3 Q. Did all of those cases involve alleged - 4 injuries or death as a result of alleged exposure tc . 5 Calidria asbastos? 6 MR. SORGEP.: In addition to other 7 asbestos exposures? 8 EY MR. POLK: As far as Union Carbide. 9 A. They were all Union Carbide -- Union Carbide 10 was a plaintiff -- the defendant in all of those. 11 Q. Did Union Carbide ever mins# produce or sell 12 any asbestos, that is raw asbestos, other than the Calidria 13 asbestos? ' 14 A. Not to my knowledge. 15 Q. As far as the states that you have mentioned# 16 how many of those were in a trial setting as opposed to a 17 deposition? 18 A. There has been two trials. 19 Q. The Arkansas and -- 20 A. In Oregon# although I was not called as a 21 witness. I was just there at the trial. 22 Q. To your knowledge# was a transcript of your 23 trial testimony from Arkansas made? 24 A. I have no knowledge of that. 25 _Q. You don't have a copy of your own trial -vt s t. 94 Cm % KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (&T?\ UCAREF00012942 9-r t-u m m 1 testimony from that case? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Do you have copies in your possession, not _ 4 here today but at home or at your work, of the deposition 5 testimony that you have given? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did you review that testimony before coming 8 here for your deposition today? . 9 A. No. Well, I did not review it recently for 10 this deposition, no. 11 Q. Are you being compensated for your time here 12 today? 13 ) 14 A. No. Q. Are your expenses being covered by someone 15 other than yourself? 16 A. I hope so. 17 Q. And I presume that that would be Union Carbide 18 covering your expenses. What is your understanding? 19 A. It's my understanding that they would be the 20 ultimately responsible for the expenses. 21 Q. And you are appearing here voluntarily at the 22 request of the lawyers for Union Carbide? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And does KACA -- 25 A. KCACe * KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012943 /m m : 99" 1 2. I am sorry. DO<is that corporation -- 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. -- have any business relationship with Union-c 4 Carbide or any subsidiary of Union Carbide presently? . 5 A. No business relationship, Wall, the 6 relationship is that in the sales agreement, KCAC agreed to 7 allow ma a certain number of hours per year to devote to 8 Union Carbide litigation. 9 Q. Who were the officers of KCAC when it 10 purchased the Calidria operation? 11 A. I am the president cf the corporation, vice 12 presidents are Carter Thatcher and Frank Brown, and the 13 secretary is Ingrea Xronenberg. ) 14 Q. Were any of the three people who are officers, 15 other than yourself or who were officers other than 16 yourself, were they affiliated with Union Carbide? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Explain to me just in a very general way how 19 that transaction occurred. 20 A. Union Carbide expressed an interest in 21 divesting its asbestos and other mining operations, and a 22 group of private investors expressed interest in acquiring 23 the Calidria asbestos business from Union Carbide, and a 24 sales agreement was reached. 25 Q. Were you one of those private investors? KIRBY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 f UCAREF00012944 100- 1 A. No. 2 Q. Were you hired to run that operation by the 3 private investors who were purchasing the operation? 4 A. I was retained. All employees were retained. 5 Q. And how many employees are presently working 6 for KCAC/ Inc. ? 7 A. Forty-two. 8 Q. And since the transaction took place/ has the 9 mine in King City remained fully operational? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And explain for me generally what customers 12 exist for the Calidria asbestos being mined? 13 . A. Over 90 percent of our production is sold 14 outside of the United States. 15 Q. What geographical areas are we talking about? 16 A. Outside of the United States? 17 Q. That's correct. 18 A. Japan# Taiwan# Korea# several countries in 19 South America and Europe. 20 Q. Since the transaction took place# I believe 21 that occurred in -- is it 1987? 22 A. The transfer was effective July 1st of 1985. 23 Q. Since July of 1985# has KCAC sold any Calidria 24 asbestos in the U.K.? 25 A. Yes. T T * * i&l- 4. KIPBY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012945 io-i 1 Q. And has the purchaser of that bean Union 2 Carbide or a subsidiary -- a U.K. subsidiary of Union 3 Carbide? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Has KCAC/ Inc. ever sole', since July of- 1935, 6 Calidria asbestos tc Union Carbide? 7 A. Not to my knowledge. 8 Q. Is there a general use, as far as you know, 9 where Calidria asbestos is put since July of 1985 for your 10 customers in Japan and elsewhere? 11 MR. EORGER: For the record, Nike, I am 12 going to object to this line of questioning as being 13 irrelevant in terms of current operations, and I would ask 14 that you wrap it up. I am not going to close it down, but 15 I co think in light of the time constraints, go cn to some 16 other things. 17 THE WITNESS: Ycu are not directing me 18 not to answer? 19 HR. BORGER: No. 20 A. The major application for the largest quantity 21 of our fibre is into Japan for asbestos cement products and 22 for a resin grade product, polyester and sealants. 23 Q. Tell me about the asbestos cement. What is 24 that used for ultimately? 25 A. The products are used for building. It's a 1 KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (312) 922-1955 <3 UCAREF00012946 1-T2 1 construction -- 2 Q. For use on pipes? 3 A. No# no# building products or do you mean 4 asbestos cement? 5 Q. Yes. A. No. It's called extruded :she secs cement 7 products# and they are used for constructing buildings# 8 inner and outer walls# floors# steps. 9 Q. One more question. If you know# what is the 10 purpose of the Calidria asbestos being incorporated into 11 that product? 12 A. It's not just Calidria. There are other 13 sourses of asbestos used in the same products from Canada, 14 Russia and South Africa. 15 Q. That may very well be true. What I am 16 wondering about# can you tall me if the producers of chose 17 asbestos cement products incorporate or use Calidria? 18 A. That's why I was trying to answer it. They 19 don't just necessarily use Calidria# they use any fibre to 20 get a flexible strength in the product. 21 Q. So according to your understanding the 22 Calidria asbestos that you sell to these customers is used 23 in their product basically for purposes of strength? 24 A. Strength and ease of production. They use our 25 pellets largely because of the reduced dust in the pellets. * .v. V 'm KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012947 103 1 2. What is the reason, if you knew, th3t Union 2 Carbide wished to divest itself of its asbestos operation? 3 MR. BORGER: Only if you know from your_ 4 personal knowledge. 5 A. The mining and metals product line did not fit 6 with a corporate philosophy of products that they wanted to 7 be involved with and they divested themselves of the 8 asbestos as well as other minerals, vanadium, tungsten, et 9 cetera. 10 Q. Did the Calidria mine exist before.1953? 11 A. The deposit or the mine? 12 Q. The mine itself. I presume the deposit was 13 there before '63. Was there a mine there? 14 A. No. 15 3. When was the deposit itself, if you know, 16 discovered? 17 A. As far as I know, 1959. 18 Q. And who made that discovery? 19 A. A geologist named Bright. 20 Q. Who was in the employ of Union Carbide? 21 A. To the best of my knowledge, ye3. 22 Q. Give my a real quick lesson on how that works. 23 How did that come about? 1 am not at all familiar with 24 that? 25 A. How he found the deposit? tvm%# M waiv in.'.yr wHv? ' iSs KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (512) 922-1955 UCAREF00012948 104- 1 Q. Yes* 2 A. What we have used in our literature is that he 3 was searching for nickle cr any other metals in which Union 4 Carbide m* y be interest id and found this mountain of' 5 something that he didn't know what it was and it was 6 subsequent ly identified as short fibcj chrysctil*: asbestos. 7 Q. And was this on land that was owned at the S time by Union Carbide# if you know? 9 A. No. > . 10 Q. So he found the deposit and Union Carbide 11 later purchased -- 12 A. Purchased some of it but not where the mine is# 13 that's BLM land. It staked a claim and then you maintain 14 that claim as long as you spend a certain amount of money 15 every year for costs. 16 Q. Is this mine located near King City? 17 A. It's about 60 road miles from King City. 18 C. I presume King city has been around prior to 19 19597 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you live in King City? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. How big a town is it? 24 A. About 7#000. - 25 Q. Did you ever see the reports going back into * IV jjjajis ** KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612' ?22-1955 UCAREF00012949 105 1 the '59 time frame when you went to King City to run the 2 operation there? 3 A. I am not familiar with u.ny reports from 59.:. ^ 4 Q. What I am wondering about is how you gained 5 your knowl edge as to the historical background to the if w m 6 discovery, et cetera. 7 A. From mineralogical and geological reports that 8 ware subsequently issued by Union Carbide geologists and 9 minerologists. 10 Q. Which were maintained at the King City 11 facility? -12 A. No, I think they were written and maintained 13 by people from Niagara Falls or Tuxedo or those other labs. .) 14 I am sure there were copies at King City. 15 Q. Now, is there an office or an office building 16 of some kind at the mins site? 17 A. No. 18 0. Where did you operate out of when you were 19 there? 20 A. At the mill. 21 Q. And what is the locality of the mill vis-a-vis 22 the mine? 23 A. It's about 60 miles away. 24 Q. So the mill is in King City? 25 A. Near King City. Five miles south of King City. ft . KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (6121 922-1955 UCAREF00012950 10T 1 Q. And hew was the ore that was mired transported 2 to the mill? 3 A. It was and is transported in bottom dump 4 trailers# trailer trucks. 5 2. Is the- ore being mined new a greater amount or 6 a lesser amount than what was mir.ad in the '60s and '70s? 7 A. Obviously you don't develop a business over 8 night so the -- it's less than when the business was 9 transferred to KCAC and it's lesser than some of the peak 10 periods in the '70s. 11 Q. Kcw many bottom dump vehicles would you have 12 running when you were at your maximum mine operation? 13 .A. We don't have any/ it's all subcontracted. 14 Q. How much ore/ if you knew/ would be, in any 15 time period you would like to civa us/ when it was running 16 as it's maximum/ how much ore would be mined in a given 17 month or year? 13 A. Mining was and is done on a campaign basis. 19 We mine enough about every three years to last the 20 subsequent tnree years. Probably in the neighborhood of a 21 half a million tons. 22 Q. What is the purity of the ore coming out of 23 the mine? 24 A. The ore contains over 90 percent chrysotile 25 asbestos. Our recovery is about 60 percent. . - a#: 'm jfcifc- *5 $ * & KIRBY A. KENNEDY S ASSOCIATES f 612 ) 922-1955 UCAREF00012951 107 1 Q. Now# are you aware that in the milling 2 operation respirators were provided to all milling 3 employees as of 1963? 4 A. It's my understanding thatrespirators have 5 been available since 1953. 6 Q. Can you tell rra# and I know I used the word 7 respirators in the question# can you fell me what you mean 8 by the usa of the word respirators in ycur answer? 9 A. It's been various types over the years and I 10 am not familiar with what was used in the early years# but 11 basically in the last -- since 1966 or '67 it's been either 12 a quarter cr a half face respirator# not air supplied, it 13 simply filters out the air that is breathed. 14 Q. Is this a paper mask? 15 A. No. 16 2. Is it a mask with somecanister cr acanister 17 on it? 18 A. That's one of the types that's been used. 19 Q. Have you ever used one at that facility or 20 have your employees at the milling facility ever used the 21 Dust Foe mask? 22 A. I remember that name. Dust Foe# I think# is 23 the name of a manufacturer. It seems like we did use Dust 24 Foe masks that had a filter on them# a Dust Foe made out of 25 plastic which conformed to the face and air was breathed u S' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES S' ffi-m UCAREF00012952 10S 1 2 3 4 5~ 6 7 3 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 through a filter. Q. What does drilling mud application mean? A. Asbestos has been used as a viscosifier in drilling mud used for drilling wells, it creates a viscosity. - C. Explain for m-? what your job was as technical superintendent. A. Responsible for quality control and the initial production of the new product/ the chemically modified product RG 244. Q. Is ir correct then that while you were serving as the technical superintendent your involvement in the asbestos group did not gc outside the RG 244? A. When I was technical superintendent/ I was responsible for quality control and for initial production of the RG 244. Q. Did your duties then in the quality control area go outside the RG 244 area? A. Yes. Q. What ocher asbestos-containing or, excuse tne, what other asbestos designations# if you will# were being worked upon at the time that you were serving as the technical superintendent? ' A. I don't know what you mean by worked upon# do you mean produced. rrsay KIREY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012953 i.79 1 Q. Produced, whatever was happening in your ) 2 department, whatever term you want to use? 3 A. The mill was producing standard grade. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. High purity. Super standard grade, a product 6 called T 135 and resin grade products. 7 Q. ` Hava you ever heard cf a designation known as 8 CTS-100, does that mean anything to you? 9 A. No. 10 Q. How about CMS-100? war 11 A. No. 12 Q. Just rur. through these standard graces, et 13 cetera, for me if you will and tell me what the difference 14 is. I think I have got the resin grads down, I understand 15 that. What is standard grade versus super standard grade? 16 A. Our process contains different kinds of 17 equipment to produce a different purity cf asbestos fibres. 18 Standard grade is the lowest quality fibre that we produced, 19 only sees certain parts of the manufacturing equipment. 20 Super standard grade is one additional grinding, wet se 5 m v 21 grinding step. High purity is the highest purity product 22 from the regular stir cut and it sees more grinding and 23 hydrocloning. 24 Q. And that is to further purify the ore so as to ) 25 remove other materials within the ore other than the 4 m .m; 3 KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012954 110 1 asbestos? < 2 A. It's primarily to remove other impurities and 3 also to what we call liberate the fibres from fibre bundles. 4 Q. And the T-135? 5 A. That's a high purity asbestos that is mixed 6 TI02. 7 * TI02 meaning what? 8 A. Titanium dioxide. . 9 Q. The application for T-135 is what? . 10 A. In the paper industry. 11 Q. The application for the high purity pellets 12 was what? 13 A. The paper industry and acoustical ceiling. 14 Q. Was the high purity process developed 15 specifically for the ceiling tile industry? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Was that a factor in the development of that? 18 A. Not to my knowledge. 19 Q. Did Union Carbide build the mill? 20 A. They had it built. 21 Q. Had it built? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. How many processes separate processes, did 24 the ore go through to yield the high purity product? 25 A. It's all one continuous process. * ujfiu; 'AyyXy- WM JKJVSVK * 5wK*ix* GH s&vr.-.v.v mvff St :.j ` KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (312) 922-1955 UCAREF00012955 Ill 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. Of seven or eight different types of equipment. 3 Q. And was high purity Calidria asbestos sold in'4 fibre form? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And was it also sold in pallet form? ' 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. When was the first time that high purity VIX3. 9 Calidria asbestos was sold in pellet form? 10 A. The highpuriry? , .VZJT M: 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. It would have been the first time it was 13 produced# but I don't knowwhat year that it is. 14 0. You don't know when Union Carbide began to 15 pelletize the high purity product then? 16 A. It was always pelletized from the start. All 17 the products from the regular plant are pelletized. If 18 ground up fibre material is required by a customer/ the ' 19 pellets are ground up. 20 Q. I see. What was the reason for pelletizing 21 the product as of 1963? 22 - A. To provide a product that was more amenable to _* iLS * 23 drying. The milling process is wet/ it's a slurry process/ 24 and the pellets or the product slurry has to be dewatered 25 and dried and the pellets are much more amenable to drying KIP.EY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (512) 922-1955 UCAREF00012956 112 1 than slabs of filter cake. 2 Q. To your knowledge cid the end product and its 3 capability of producing dust/ when I say end product I mean4 the pellets/ and the pellets capability of producing dust 5 versus the capability of fibre producing dust/ did that 6 have any bearing on the idea of producing pellets? 7 A. Not to my knowledge. 8 Q. Did you gain that understanding asthat being 9 a beneficial or a perceived benefit of pelletizing 10 somewhere later on? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And when would you have firstgained that 3.3 knowledge? 14 A. Well/ I don't know. We have established ! was 15 not involved at all until '66 in -- another reason for 16 having pellets was tho ease of bulk handling or handling a 17 product on conveyors and in air pneumatic systems. 18 Q. Do you think that you were aware in 1966 that 19 the pelletizing process was perceived by Union Carbide to 20 be a less dust producing end product than raw fibre? 21 A. I don't think I was because that wasn't in my 22 charter of what I was doing. 23 Q. How about when you became the marketing 24 manager in 1970/ would you have been aware of that at that 25 time? r.'.'.iv. - fear- isriiaf wv.r. m 4% A a* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES f612 1 922-1955 UCAREF00012957 113 > 1 A. Yes# I would think so. 2 0. In fact# correct me if I am wrong# but isn't 3 it true that the pelletizing process was used by the ,, 4 marketing people as a sales tool? 5" A. I think -- :.w.v Wmi\rv# 6 Q. Specifically with reference to dust producing 7 capabilities? `*? 8 A. Yes# there is no question that we have 9 pulicized the fact that we have asbestos fibre in the 4-i& - r.nr 10 pellet form. ;v.u* , 1WivW..TvT*l 11 Q. And to your knowledge was that a sales tool 12 prior to you becoming marketing manager? 13 :: a. - I don't know. 14 Q. You don't know that? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Okay. . .;* t ( 17 Q. Who was your predecessor as marketing manager? * </ 18 A. Walter Young. 19 Q. Bow about before him? 20 A. I think Norman Satter. 21 Q. Did I understand your testimony to say that 22 Sterling Forest is the same as Tuxedo# New York? 23 A. I don't really know.- I know there is two . 24 separate names but I think they are the same general 25 geographical location. KIRBY A. KENNEDY L ASSOCIATES V.. f612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012958 114' 1 3. Do you know what Sterling Forest means/ is it 2 the name of a town or a lab or what? 3 A. No# I don't. Vv.v'-.V 4 Q. Have you ever been there? , _ AVUMT. 5 A. No. 6 c. Have you been to Tuxedo? 7 A. NO. * //Hr; 'tf - 5?f.'v a Q. Was the alleys division part of the metals * V: cf|| 9 division of Union Carbide in December of 1957? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to the quantity 12 of Calidria asbestos sold between '63 and '56? 13 . A. Well* I have knowledge but I don't know how 14 much. I ocn *t know how many tons. 15 Q. Would you agree with me that sales of Calidria 15 asbestos to the Conwad Corporation, if you know, began in 17 1964? 18 A. No, I don't know. 19 Q. Do you.have any way.of leading us to the 20 correct source to find out if in fact that is true? 21 A. I think documents have been produced of m 22 invoices and I don't -- 23 3. The documents that have been produced by Union 24 Carbide with reference to that question begin in 1970 and I 25 believe admittedly they are not complete documents. I am tf KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 * UCAREF00012959 * 115 1 wondering if you have any suggestions for us as to where we 2 could, go to determine when sales began to Conwed? 3 A. I guess through Counsel, my Counsel, you can., 4 direct that question to him or me, but the invoice files 5 should be complete. 6 Q. Going all the way back to th*. inception of the 7 operation? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Where would those records be? 10 A. Union Carbide supposedly has copies of all 11 invoices and the originals are in King City. 12 Q. Going back to 1963? 13 A. Supposed to be, yes. 14 Q. When you say King City, are you talking about 15 the mill? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And you have an office in the mill I assume? 18 A. Yes. . 19 Q. Where physically are the documents within the 20 mill? 21 A. They are in a filing cabinet. 22 Q. And where is or where are the filing cabinet 23 or cabinets? 24 A. They are in the mill office or the business 25 office, I guess you would call it, of the mill. *KvS.Sf . r.v.r. IS KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UGAREF00012960 116 1 Q. Have you in the past bean requested by Unicn 2 Carbide to review those documents for any purpose? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Were you asked in thiscase, theJanes Manisto 5 case, to review your sales documents concerning sales made 6 to Ccnvea? 7 A. No. am ,c - v;::.? S Q. However, you are able tctestifytoday, based -V * yffsr.'. 9 on personal knowledge, that all sales invoices to Conwed, 10 as per your usual business practice, would be located in 11 that filing cabinet going all the way back to '63 or 12 whenever sales started? .V.-.VA* 13 . MR. BORGER: I think that's a 14 mischaracterizaticn of his testimony. Counsel. What he 15 said was if they exist they would be there. I don't think 16 he has represented it is his own personal knowledge that in 17 fact invoices going back to 1963 are there. 18 BY MR. POLK: 19 Q. Well, then 1 misunderstood your testimony, sir. 20 A. We have retained invoices in our files from 21 1963 through the present time. I don't know specifically 22 which ones are in there, but theoretically they should all 23 be there but that's 25 years and you can imagine what can 24 happen. V-) 25 Q. And that was the general business practice of KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012961 117 1 the Calidria operation? 2 A. To retain invoices? 3 Q. Yes. \ 94 --I 4 A. Yes. . 5 Q. And you personally have never discarded or 6 destroyed any of those documents? 7 A. No, I have not. 8 Q. And, to your knowledge, there is no one else mjj.v.i 9 chat has come into the business premises of the Calidria . 10 operation, now KCAC, and removed any documents? 11 A. They were removed for copying. . 12 Q. Who did that? 13 A. I say they were removed. I don't think they 14 were removed from the premises. They were removed from the 15 files. The invoices, I think we copied those for a 16 representative of Gebson, Dunn and Krutcher. 17 Q. Union Carbide's lawyers in Connecticut? 18 A. No, in Los Angeles. At least that's where I 19 had contact with them. . 20 Q. When was that done? 21 A. I don't recall. 4k 22 Q. Did that process involve the copying of all 23 invoices that you had in your possession? 24 A. To the best of my knowledge. I wasn't 25 specifically doing the copying but the intent was to copy * f* 2 KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (512) 922-1955 UCAREF00012962 113 1 each invoice 2 Q. When was that done? . 3 A. I haven't remembered since you asked me that'-'4 cwc minutes ago/ I don't know. 5 Q. Well# was it done before or after the 6 transaction took place where the private investors 7 purchased the company? 3 A. I think it would be after# probably afts r 1935. ' ' * -- # ' VWRT. 9 Q. After 1985# is that what you said? 10 A. Probably after July of 1985. 11 Q. And you can't narrow that down as being in '35 12 or '38? 13 * ft No. It wasn't '38. 14 Q. Do you have a written contract between 15 yourself and Union Carbide concerning your role in any IS asbestos related litigation? 17 A. NO. I 18 Q. Are you compensated by Union Carbide on an 19 annual or other basis for your participation in the 20 litigation? 21 A. No. You mean me personally? 22 Q* You personally. 23 A. No. 24 Q. Is KCAC reimbursed or paid by Union Carbide 25 for the time that you take away from the business in KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (312) 922-1955 UCAREF00012963 119 1 participating in asbestos litigation? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What arrangement is that? 4 A. What do you mean, what arrangement? 5 Q. Is it a set sum or is it based on your time or 3 how does that work? 7 A. Yes/ it's based on time. 3 Q. And when the transaction took place in July 9 of '85# was there an agreement between Union Carbide and 10 KCAC to indemnify KCAC for any asbestos claims asserted 11 against that corporation? 12 A. Well, KCAC purchased the assets of the 13 Calidria asbestos business and none of the liabilities. 14 2. I think that answers my question but maybe not. 15 Was there any indemnification? If you were to assume that 16 KCAC were to be sued for an asbestos related disease r.ow is 17 there any obligation on Union Carbide's part to defend 13 and/or indemnify? 19 MR. BORGER: I think you are calling for 20 a legal conclusion from this witness/ Counsel/ which is 21 beyond the realm of his expertise. 22 BY MR. POLK: 23 Q. If you know. 24 A. I couldn't answer that question specifically/ 25 no. tv.vr m : bw i KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES 922-1955 UCAREF00012964 120 1 Q. How about if I rephrased it? 2 A. I could try. 3 Q. Why don't you tell me what your understanding 4 is as to whatever the extent of your knowledge is on that 5 subject matter? 6 MR. SORGER: Just a minute. Let me talk 7 to you outside. 8 (At this time a discussion was held off 9 the record.) 10 MR. BORGER: The witness has answered to 11 the best of his ability and I instruct him not to answer. 12 BY MR. POLK: 13 ` Q. The file retention policy at the Calidria 14 facility* was there any particular policy in affect at any 15 time between *63 and the present time? 16 A. You are speaking specifically of King City? 17 Q. Yes* King City. 18 A. And with what documents? 19 Q. Okay. That's a fair question. Let me ask you 20 this* what was the reason for retaining all invoices? ' 21 A. I don't know. As far as I know there was no 22 reason* it was just something the plant has done from the 23 begining. 24 Q. And was that also done with respect to other 25 types of documents? 1 will give you an example* 4 Cva .' aV:Sir VR1TO KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012965 > 121 1 communications from Niagara Falls. 2 A. As far as I know there is no policy of 3 retention. 4 0. What wa3 the practice? 5 A. Communications? - 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. I would say most of them are retained. 8 Q. And most of them existed at King City? 9 A. Well, the ones that were there still exist. 10 We haven't destroyed any. 11 2. Were any other documents copied apparently 12 sometime between '85 and '88 by the law firm in Los Angeles 13 other than invoices? j 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Tell me what documents were copied at that 16 time. 17 A. I can't tell you what. A paralegal went 13 through every file drawer and set aside for copying 19 whatever he thought was appropriate. 20 Q* You wouldn't happen to remember that 21 paralegal's name, would you? 22 A. Morgan Tookey. 23 Q. And you understood that person to be from, is 24 it the Gebson firm in Los Angeles? 25 A. Yes. v.y.. flyr? "vRV >.*S? r.iTr SrS & KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (G12) 922-1955 UCAREF00012966 122 1 2. Can you categorize the typ^s of documents 2 other than the invoices that may have been copied or pulled 3 for copying? 4 A. No, I have never really reviewed his file^or 5 his list, whatever. I really couldn't categorize them, no. 6 Q. Did you receive a list from him or someone 7 else indicating what documents were being earmarked for 3 copying? 9 A. Now I have a list of which file drawers he 10 copied from. I am pretty sure I don't have a list of the 11 documents that were copied. 12 Q. This list that you just spoke of that you do 13 have, is that a list that was generated by ycurself? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Who generatedthat list? 16 A. Hr. Tcckey. 17 Q. And let me just ask you, would it have 18 included correspondence? 19 A. It could have included whatever he thought was 20 appropriate. 21 Q. I understand. But you are familiar with your 22 file cabinets, I assume? 23 A. Not necessarilybecause there have been a 24 succession of plant managers there who have established 25 files and each one established a new set of files. feg# V-SSm m njr.ujpi m m um m w iw * raw KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012967 123 1 Q. .Cut you are familiar, I assume, with the files 2 at least since you came back on the scene at King City in 3 1931? 4 A. 1931, yes. 5 Q. Is that a fair statement? 5 A. Somewhat, yes. 7 Q. I understand you can't tell us exactly what 8 was in them but, fcr example, is there anything in your 9 files that deals with medical issues vis-a-vis asbestos? 10 A. I am sure there must be something in there 11 dealing with medical issues. 12 Q. Are you familiar >-:nough with your files to 13 tell us, is it a medical file labeled as such or how is th> 14 medical information -- 15 A. I don't recall that I have a file called 16 medical. 17 Q. Can you tell us this, the invoices that you 18 talked about earlier, how were they filed, by year, by 19 customer, how? 20 A. No, they are by customer. 21 Q. So there is some file or files at King City 22 that would show all invoices that King City has in one 23 place for Conwed Corporation or Wood Conversion? 24 A. It should, yes. 25 Q. Would that file also contain non-invoice Min* 3TMV. iSfffe m \ & hi & & KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012968 I.. 4 1 documents relating to that customer? 2 A. No. 3 Q. We knew that there were certain correspondence4 going between King City and Conwed. Where would those,5 - - type-s of documents have been kept? 6 A. Thay would have been kept in Niagara Falls and 7 if they were still -- and then those types of documents 8 would have been transferred to Pittsburg with the sales or 9 marketing management. 10 Q. So those kind of documents/ correspondence/ 11 that kind of thing/ would not be at King City or a copy of 12 them would not be at King City? 13 A. Not necessarily. 14 Q. Did you have anything to do with/ net 15 physically but procedurally/ have anything to do with the 16 transferring of the group to Pittsburg in '25? 17 A. NO/ other than being opposed to it. 18 Q, Was that done about contemporaneously with the 19 transaction? 20 A. No. You mean the sale? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. NO/ it was done prior to that. 23 Q. Has there been any ongoing function being done 24 at Pittsburg with reference to asbestos since the records 25 were transferred there? * feVf.vF- KIRBY A. KENNEDY L ASSOCIATES TV (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012969 B M it;*msa-^mim?wmw 1?5 1 A. I am net sure what ycu moan. 2 Q. Well 1 think you said that theasbestos grouo 3 was transferred. '.i 4 A. Marketing group. 5 Q. Marketing part cfthe asbestos croup was 6 transferred to Pittsburg in '85? 'I ? 7 A. No, no. It was somswhera after *81, probably '82 8 or *83. .rwt* 9 Q. Since '35 ha3 there been a function for the 10 marketing group for asbestos? -m 11 A. In other words, after KCAC? 12 Q. Correct. 13 A. No. 14 0. Is there a groupthat is functioning presently 15 in Pittsburg that used to function as the asbestos 16 marketing group? 17 A. No. Maybe- a secretary or something like that, 18 but there is no former asbestos people still in Pittsburg. 19 Q. How big a group went to Pittsburg? 20 A. Two people, I think, it was. 21 0. Tell me why they were transferred to Pittsburg? 22 A. That was the mainoffice of the metals 23 division, sales organization, and they wanted to integrate 24 the asbestos sales people with the metals division sales 25 people. i KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES . UCAREF00012970 1 2. Do you know whether they presently possess 2 asbestos marketing documents that we have just baen talking 3 about? 4 A. No# I don't. - 5 3. The two people that you mentioned that went 6 there that were in the asbestos marketing area# do they 7 still work for Union Carbide? 8 A. No. 9 ' Q. Who were they? 10 A. Gordon Dickson and Ed Kleber. 11 Q. Once the asbestos operation was sold, were 12 they releas ed from Union Carbide# if'you know? 13 A. Mr. Dickson passed away. Mr. Kleber 14 transferred to another company. 15 Q. Do you know where Mr. Kleber is presently? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Where i3 he? 18 A. He is in San Francisco. 19 Q. And what company is he with? 20 A. He is with Kanell Brothers Company# Limited. 21 a. VJhat is that? 22 A. It'8 a trading company. 23 Q. Trading in? 24 A. Lots of things. The company represents our 25 asbestos in foreign markets. urn mWAV KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012971 127 1 Q. So you have a business association with Mr. 2 Kleber presently? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Do you have a business association with Kanell 5 Brothers? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Tell me what background Mr. Kleber had at the 8 time that he did the 1972 air testing at Conwed? 9 A. I am not sure what year he transferred into 10 the asbest os group working for me as a customer service11 type perse n in the marketing group and through Mr. Ingalls# 12 who is a chemical engineer. He was the cne who set up the 13 air monito ring laboratory. 14 Q. Who did, Mr. Ingalls? 15 A. Mr. Ingalls. Mr. Klebar worked for him and 16 went to a NIOSH school. 17 3. V7here? 18 A. I am not sure where, probably Cincinnati. 19 Q. Why do you say that? 20 A. That's the headquarters or used tc be. 21 Q. You know for a fact though he went to the 22 school? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Other than that, what was. his background? He 25 was a marketing man# wasn't he? it- va g st 'm > $ 5*-' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012972 7L - .o 1 A. No, he was customer service, and then he went 2 into 3ales after the air monitoring. 3 Q. As far as you know, he didn't have any 4 background in the industrial hygiene field, did he? 5 A. No. 6 Q. The same with Mr. Norris, he didn't have any 7 background in industrial hygiene, did he? 8 A. NO. 9 Q. And Mr. Ingalls, are you familiar with his 10 background? ' 11 A. Nothing other than he was a chemical engineer. 12 Q. Just as yourself? 13 A. Yes. 14 g. Are you familiar with Dr. Dernehl's "Asbestos 15 Toxicology Report"? That's the title of the publication. 16 A. I have seen it, yes. 17 Q. And when did you first see that document? 18 A. I don't recall. 19 Q. Tell me, sir, I think you said that you first 20 saw I. C. Sayers publication, the 1967 publication, fairly 21 recently? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And that was during this trial? 24 A. As I remember, it was brought up during this 25 trial. ft AVIW m -.-.WY.' ||| : f| <?: KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012973 i 29' 4 1 Q. In Arkansas? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q Was that perhaps broughtup during 4 cross-examination of somebody from Union Carbide? 5 A. Of me? - 5 Q. Of you. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Were you askno to read the report? 9 A. I was asked if I had seen it before. 10 Q. And you indicated that you had not? v.vi - flSr 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And did you have a chance to r^ad that report 13 either at the time you were testifying or at least some ) 14 time closely connected thereto? 15 A. No. 16 Q. So have you ever read th~ report? 17 A. I think I have read it subsequent to the trial. 19 Q. Subsequent tothe trial were you provided a 19 copy of that report by someone? 20 A. Yes, I must havebeen. 21 Q. Who provided you a copy of it? * 22 A. I am not sure whether it was -- probably my 23 Counsel who obtained it from the Plaintiff's Counsel. 24 Q. Who was that at that time? 25 A. I don't remember. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012974 130 1 Q. Do you know this/ was it local -'.rkansas 2 defense Counsel or was it soma national type Counsel for 3 Union-Carbide? 4 A. It was local Counsel. _' - 5 0. Do you have any -- 6 A. Wait a minute. I don't recall. There may 7 have been a Union Carbide lawyer there. 8 Q. Did you ask them for an explanation as to why 9 you weren't provided a copy of that report? 10 MR. BORGER: I will object to that as 11 calling for attorney-client communications and instruct him 12 not to answer. 13 MR. POLK: I just asked him if he asked. 14 I didn't ask him what was said. 15 16 Michael. MR. BORGER: Communications gc both ways# 17 BY MR. POLK: 18 Q. Did you read the report closely enough that 19 you are familiar with it? 20 A. Close enough to now? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. No. 23 Q. So you can't tell me the general gist of that 24 report as you sit here today? 25 A. No. * ffesr r.m* KV^|C \ KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES -V (512) 922-1955 UGAREF00012975 131 1 Q. Do you have know this# did the I. C. Sayers 2 report issued in 1967 deal with the issue of health and 3 asbestos? 4 A. Ysst and I think we reviewed a copy earlier. 5 Yes# I think it was about asbestos and health. 6 Q. So ycu know that much? VSVV 7 A. In the U.K.# I remember the title. 8 Q. Can you tell rr.s this# where was Mr. Hall in 9 1957? ' 10 A. I don't know. VH . jar. 'v m 11 Q. You indicated earlier that you thought he was 12 in England at least at some time? 13 A. And I may have been confusing him with Mr. 14 Sayers. I am not sure whether Mr. Hall was in England or 15 net. 16 Q. Well# can you tell me who was Dr. Sayers? Who 17 was he employed by at the time the report was written? 18 A. If you have it there, I would like to look and 19 see 20 MR. POLK: I am handing to the witness 21 Myers Deposition Exhibit 7. 22 A. At the top it says "Union Carbide U.K. Limited#" 23 and at the bottom it says "Alloys Division# Special 24 Products Department." 25 Q. Sow# you were working for the alloys division# KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-'955 UCAREF00012976 132 1 a parL of the metals division, ir. December cf 1957, were 2 you not? 3 A. Not that I knew cf. I ensv:rec earlier that;.! 4 didn't knew where the alleys division was. It appears to - 5 me that the alleys division is part cf Union Carbide U.K. 6 Limited. 7 C. I will try to find it in here, but that's what 8 an affidavit that you signed said, and I will try to pull i* WS: . .E 9 it out and show it to you out of this tress. 'A'AW 10 A. It said that I worked for alloys division? 11 Q. Yes. At least I think it did. I coulc be 12 wrong. 13 A. I don't recall ever getting a check from the 14 alloys division. 15 Q. Let me ask you this. Are you familiar with 16 the term alloys division? 17 A. Not as part of the Union Carbide Corporation, 18 no, I am not. I St 19 . Q. .Is the Union Carbide's U.K. Limited part of 20 the Union Carbide's Corporation? if 21 A. Well, by being a part I supposa you-mean a 22 subsidiary and whatever, and I don't really know for a fact, 23 no. ' 24 Q. Tell me, explain to me, what is the or what 25 was the metals division of Union Carbide as of December of i KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES f fil2) 922-1955 8P UCAREF00012977 133 1 1967? 2 A. I think at that time it was called the mining 3 and metals division ~ 4 2. Yes, - 5 A -- and hac operations# coal and gas and 6 uranium# vanadium# tungsten# and I think '67 sometime is 7 when the businass went back to the chemicals and plastics 8 division. ' 9 Q. In '67 you said? 10 A, Well# I was asked that earlier# and I am not 11 sure of the date. 12 Q. What was the reason for that# if you know? 13 A. As I recall it was because the product 14 applications fit more into the chemicals and plastics 15 division than they did into the metals division# especially 16 from a marketing standpoint. 17 Q. So the alloys division# at least in your mind# 18 doesn't -- what is an alloy? 19 A, Is that the question?20 Q. Yes. What is an alloy? 21 A. An alloy is a mixture of two or more things. 22 Q. It doesn't make sense to you that the alloys 23 division was a part of the metals and mining division? 24 A. It doesn't make sense. 25 Q. Why did Dr. Dernehl issue you his asbestos 4 t&v. 3SB a0** 5* 5. & KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012978 114 1 toxicology report? 2 A. I don't know. You would have to ask him/ I 3 think. 4 Q. Well/ was it issued/ as far as you know/ for 5 purposes of marketing? 6 n I don't know. 7 Q. VJas it used for purposes of marketing Calidria 8 asbestos? 9 km It wasn't used for purposes of marketing/ it 10 was used to send to customers as Union Carbide's feeling 11 about asbest cs and health. 12 Q. And what was the time frame of that report 13 about? 14 A. As I recall it was about 1957 cr 1963. 15 Q. Are you familiar as to the communications that 16 went between Union Carbide U.K. Limited and Union Carbide 17 in New York? 18 A. No. 19 Q. You don't have any knowledge about that? 20 A. No. 21 Q. What is the percentage by volume of asbestos 22 in high purity pellets? 23 A. I never have heard it or thought of it in that 24 manner. I don't know. 25 Q. How about the percentage * by weight' of asbestos.'s -' # KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) -'22-1955 UCAREF00012979 w w w m a m m '- 135 1 in high purity pellets? ' 2 A. Probably 99 percent/ 98 percent to 99 rercent. 3 Q. Did you maintain any kind of literature -: 4 library at the King City facility at any tine that you are 5 aware of? When I say literature library# I am talking S about health literature. 7 A. That I -- 3 Q. Or anyone at King City. 9 MR. BORGER: Are you talking about a 10 library as such as opposed to isolated articles? 11 MR. POLK: Isolated articles. 12 A. I keep things stacked on the shelf in relation 13 to asbestos and health. 14 Q. Were you aware at any time between 1951 and 15 1963 that asbestos was harmful or could be harmful? 16 A. Not that I recall. 17 Q. Did you ever gain anyknowledge of any kind 13 from any source while you were working in the atomic field 19 that asbestos was harmful or could be harmful? 20 A. Not that I know of# no. 21 Q. Did you have any knowledge when working in the 22 atomic field that asbestos was used in atomic plants or 23 nuclear plants? 24 A. NO. 25 Q. When was the first time thatyou personally mvf; KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012980 135 1 oecame aware that asbestos was potentially hazardous? 2 A. I don't recall specifically# just knowledge 3 gained over time. 4 Q. When would have been the first time generally 5 that you would have understood that? 6 A. Probably the late '60s. 7 Q. And what would have come to your attention at 3 that time to bring that to your attention? 9 A. I.can't recall anything specifically. 10 . Q. When did you first go to Xing City? 11 . 12 A. 1967# the first visit. 2. No# the first time that you wont to work there. 13 . A- 1957. 14 Q. Month? 15 A. Summer. 16 Q. Summer cf '67? 17 A. Yes. IS Q. If you would like to review Exhibit 7 again# 19 please feel free to do that but I am going to ask you some 20 questions# and my first question is when you want to work W.AV. 'll: * S -am f 21 at King City in the summer of '67# would you have wanted to 22 receive a copy of what is Exhibit 7 when it was issued in ,. 23 December? 24 A. I don't really understand your question. O 25 Would I. want to receive a copy? XIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012981 137 1 Q. Would you have appreciated receiving a copy of 2 Exhibit 7 when you were there? 3 MR. BORGER: Just a minute/ Counsel. T'- 4 would like to have an opportunity to have the witness.- 5 review the exhibit. 6 MR. POLK: Sure. 7 A. No/ I don't think it would have mattered 8 whether I had a copy. I don't think it would have been any 9 value to me. 10 Q. So it would have been no value to you as the 11 manager of the King City facility to know in December of '67 12 that asbestos causes mesothelioma? 13 MR. BORGER: That's not the question you 14 asked before/ Counsel. 15 BY MR. POLK: - 16 Q. Let's turn to the document itself then/ and I 17 will ask you specific questions. On page -- 18 A. First of all/ I wasn't the plant manager 19 in *67. 20 Q. What was your position again? 21 A. Technical superintendent. 22 Q. Technical superintendent. Okay. So as 23 technical superintendent/ looking at Page 11 of the report/ 24 in your estimation it would not have been significant for 25 you to know that mesothelioma is the most disturbing of the WAV. m * :.t5 m o n iu t - r " KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES r12) 922-1955 UCAREF00012982 133 1 three diseases attributable to asbestos? I am reading from 2 Section 4.4.1. 3 A. I don't think it would have been any value in--1 4 my job or my life. 5 3. And would it have been any value te you in 6 December of 1957, this report generally, in bringing to you 7 or to your attenticr. the fact that there was potential for 3 asbestos to cause disease? 9 A. I don't think it would have -- it may have 10 been of interest. I don't think it would have changed 11 anything I was doing. 12 Q. And your job as technical superintendent at 13 King City was specifically to do what? 14 A. Wall, we have been through that. 15 Q. I know. 15 A. I was responsible for quality control and for 17 the production of the new product. 13 Q. Excuse me forinterrupting, whowas 19 responsible for in-plant worker safety or mill worker 20 safety? .. 21 A. At that time? 22 Q. Yes. . *. V 23 A. I think it was Bob Croncide who had safety and 24 health responsibility. ' 25 ,Q. Turning to Page 15 of thereport, Exhibit 7, l-.-.v: iTTAJV Jvorr ftvWT V. * I'. ' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012983 129 1 as the person in charge for quality control, would it have 2 been important or significant for ycu to know that Dr. 3 Sayers wrote in December cf 1957 that, you can go along 4 with me here at 6.1.1, "It therefore seems that on the 5 basis of present evidence we are not entitled under any 6 circumstances to state that our material is not a health 7 hazard. What is more, if it is believed that a potential 8 customer would use our material, quota, 'dangerously', 9 close quote, and that he is unaware of the toxicity 10 question, then it must surely be our duty to caution him 11 and point out means whereby he can hold the asbestos air 12 float concentration to a minimum." Would that have been of 13 significance to you in December of 1967? 14 A. I don't see in what context it would be 15 significant to me. 15 Q. Was it of significance to you in 1967? 17 A. Not that X recall. 13 Q. Was the size of the fibre significant to you 19 in *67? 20 A. Not that I recall. 21 Q. Well, you tell me what was significant to you 22 in '67 in your job as the technical superintendent, I mean, 23 what was important to you? 24 A. I imagine of prime importance was making sure 25 that the products we made met our quality control - Kvr W il * fw u v tf M * ;*at* t * . i r - KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ffi'm UCAREF00012984 140 1 specifications, that our production was adequate to meat 2 our sales, that this new operation was getting off the 3 ground. 4 Q. So your main purpose was making sure that, the 5 end product that you folks produced met the standards and 6 specificaricns sat down by Unicr. Carbide? 7 A. As responsible for quality control, yes. 3 Q. And the characteristics of the product itself, 9 was that of significance to you? 10 A. Not that I remember anything specific of 11 asbestos. I know that respirators, as I say, were made 12 available and required in certain areas. I assume I knew 13 this too, that any foreign material that is inhaled is r.ct 14 good for the body, whether it be silica or asbestos. 15 Q. Would fibre aerodynamics have been significant 16 to you in December of '67? 17 A. It would have been out of my league. 18 Q. Well, would this have been significant to you 19 in '67, December, Page 18, "One of the obvious differences 20 between chrysotile from the Coalinga deposit and that from 21 other sources is its inherently small fibre dimensions. 22 This, together with the unique wet refining method employed, 23 has meant that there is a great abundance of very small 24 liosrated fibres available for inhalation into the lung." 25 Was that of any significance to you or would it have been \i\V~ *4 v KIR3Y A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 s'x-r UCAREF00012985 141 1 for you to know that in December of '67? 2 A. I think I already answered that earlier when 3 you asked me about fibre. Me, it wouldn't hava been ,- 4 significant. . 5 Q. Was the method in which ycu pcoduced the 6 product, i.e. the wet refining method, was that significant 7 co you as the technical superintendent? 8 A. Only as it relates to quality control. 9 Q. Does quality control or cid quality control in 10 1967 include the packaging of the product? 11 A. I was not responsible for packaging, r.o. That 12 would have been manufacturing. 13 ' Q. I understand that you may not have been 14 responsible. I am just asking you if that was part of the 15 quality control. 16 A. No, net that I recall. 17 Q. So, as I understand it, in *67 when you were 18 serving as the technical superintendent, once the pellet 19 wa3 produced your job was done? 20 A. Well, if we had 1,000 people out there and 15 21 different departments, yes, I could say that. We were all 22 part of one small group producing fibres, and I don't think 23 my job was done until we sold all we could. 24 Q. I guess that's my point. As the quality 25 control man, weren't you interested in the quality of the e:\ KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012986 142 1 product after it was delivered to the customer? 2 A. There wasn't any change. Asbestos is 3 relatively inert. ... - 4 Q. Wouldn't you have been interested in the. 5 quality of the product when it was delivered to the 3 customer? 7 A. It should be the same as when it left cur 3 plant. 9 Q. 'When you say "it"# you mean what? 10 A. Asbestos pellets. 11 Q. Asbestos pellets. And the condition of the 12 asbestos pellets# would you have been interested in that as 13 far as the condition of the pellet when it arrived at the 14 customer's premises? 15 A. I wouldn't go out and examine- a pellet to make 16 sure it arrived at the customer's plant. 17 Q. Were you participating at all in determining 18 the methods of how the material was going to be shipped? 19 A. No# I don't recall. The method of shipment 20 had been the same. I didn't make any changes in the method 21 of shipment. 22 Q. Nor did you make any changes in the '67 time 23 frame for the method of bagging# is that right? 24 A. Did I? 25 Q. Yes. I *e,' > V>6-. i KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES {6121 927-1755 f- UCAREF00012987 1 A. No. 2 Q. Do you dispute Pago IS whore Dr. Sayers 3 indicates toward the bottom of the page that, "The author 4 r.as hir.self witnessed a dust cloud in the vicinity of bags 5 of both pelletized and open materials when making up 5 customer sample bags after dark. k large number of 7 suspended particles were visible in a torch beam." 8 HR. 30RGER: Are ycu asking him to say 9 what Mr. Sayers witnessed? 10 MR. POLK: That's not a very good 11 question. 12 A. No, it wasn't. 13 . Q. Let me ask you this. Did pelletized asbestos, 14 after it was bagged and you assumed that the bag was later 15 opened, did it produce dust? 16 A. It depends on how it was handled. 17 Q. Did you ever have an opportunity to see how 18 your asbestos pellets and the bags that they were in after 19 they were delivered to a particular customer? 20 A. I am sure I must have because I was present 21 during some of the air monitoring when bags were dumped in. 22 Q. In fact, in 1972 when the air monitoring was 23 being done, the bags were being ripped open, weren't they? 24 A. I wasn't there. I have no idea. 25 Q. You don't recollect what the report says? trn tjm -m m m U M M - KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012988 14 1 A. NO. 2 Q. May we rely on that report# the 1972 report? 3 A. For what? . 4 Q. May we rely on the accuracy of the report as 5 tc where th= monitoring was being dene and what was being 6 Sons? 7 A. You would have tc ask Mr. Kleber. 8 Q. Did you rely on it? 9 A. I relied on Mr. Kleber# yes. 10 Q. So you relied upon it when you reviewed it 11 before send! ng it to the customer# true? 12 A. What do you mean by relied on? Whether he was 13 selling ths truth? 14 Q. You relisd upon the accuracy of his report# 15 didn't you? 15 A. No# I don't think that. I didn't co back and 17 check his calculations or anything like that. 13 Q. But you reviewed his reports before they were 19 sent to the customer# right? 20 A. In most cases# yes. 21 Q. And you reviewed that for a purpose# I assume? 22 A. As I said before, the main purpose was to see 23 what the dust counts were. I wasn't reviewing it to say* 24 well# if it' s over X point Y# we are not going to send it 25 or I guess I reviewed it from an editorial standpoint. mv y.'.y {.V.v# sse tjtv. Rirmr wn' ) . KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012989 145 1 Q. Did you ever editorialize any of the reports? 2 A. What doyou mean? 3 Q. Did you ever change them cr suggest a change?.:, 4 A. You mean like in spelling or grammar probably 5 would be all. 5 Q. Content? 7 A. No/ not that I recall. 8 Q. Well/ I think you earlier testified if you saw 9 a reading that was in your opinion out of line# I think you 10 said over five/ that would cause you to take some action. 11 Is that right? 12 A. No. I said that I would probably review them/ 13 and the allowable -- net the allowable but the suggested 14 level by a IK at that time as I remember was five -- at the 15 time of the Conwed it was five fibres per CC by OSHA. That 16 was the OSHA standard. Fortunately I never saw anything 17 over five. We still would have sent the report to the 13 customer except we would have noted in the cover letter 19 that here is a high reading; you should do something in 20 this area. 21 Q. Was the -- 22 A. If I saw five/ I wouldn't change it tc a three. 23 Q. I am certainly not suggesting that. 24 A. Maybe I am not understanding the line of 25 questions. *v*.v. '.TK V; A & KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012990 1 Q. I am just asking you, when you reviewed it, if 2 you relied upon the report that you were reviewing as being 3 accurate? - 4 A. I relied on Mr. Kleber as I would anyone else. - 5 Q. As being accurate, and you also at the same 6 time whan the reports were sent to the companies would 7 expect that the recipient of the report, your customer, 8 would also rely on that report? 9 MR. BORGER: The question is ambiguous, 10 Mr. Polk, in the sense of reliance. I think you are using 11 it -- 12 A. Plus I don't know hew the- customer would react. 13 You would have to ask Ccnwed. 14 2. Well, all I want to know is when the report 15 was sent to the customer, in your mind was the customer 16 entitled to rely upon the accuracy cf ths report? 17 MR. BORGER: In what particulars, Mr. 18 Polk? We got into this debate when you started in asking 19 about how the bags were opened during the air monitoring 20 test and the description supposedly in the report that the 21 bags were ripped open. Now, if you are asking whether the 22 customer was entitled to rely on that description of . 23 opening the bags that they got from a Union Carbide 24 representative, clearly that is something different than - 25 relying upon whatever the results of the air monitoring \ ;> >.vXv S5Sr t-ifc KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 ?T- UCAREF00012991 147 1 tests may have been. The customer is the one that's going 2 to be familiar with the manner in which bags were oDened or 3 net in the course of operations. If you suggest that they:.4 rely on the report by Union Carbide for the description of 5 the operating process I think distorts any meaning of 6 reliance that you may be trying to get from this witness. 7 If that's what you are getting at, I think that's unfair 8 for the witness. 9 "R. EROWNSON: I realize you are .' 10 instructing your witness# John# but I have to object to . .vxsr 11 that last statement as testimony by Counsel as totally 12 improper# and we will note an objection accordingly. 13 BY MR* POLK: 14 Q. Let me try to bring it tc a head hers. Let's 15 take Deposition Exhibit 21# which is the airborne dust 16 count for the Ccnwed Corporation sent by Kleber and Norris 17 to Conwed. Right? 18 .A. . That was the report of their visit# yes. 19 Q- .. And .in the report they have 1 believe what is 20 a sample number in the left-hand margin# right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And then they have a description column# and 23 in the description column if it*s an air sample they tell 24 you where the air sample is being taken from# true? 25 A. True. VHU KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012992 1-. 3 1 Q. Now# all I am asking is can Conwed/ vht-n they 2 receive this report# are they entitled to rely upon the 3 accuracy of she description? 4 A. Well# there was a Conwed employee there at the - 5 time. I am sure if he disagreed with something he would 6 have told him. They can rely on it as prepared to the best 7 of Mr. Kleber's ability. 8 Q. Fine. And then as far as the asbestos fibre 9 count in a report such as Exhibit 21 was in your mind 10 Conwed entitled to rely upon the accuracy of the counting .. SiHawg 11 procedures utilized by Kleber and whoever else helped him? 12 A. Relied on him for what purooss? 13 - Q. The accuracy of the numbers. 14 A. For what purpose# for the lawsuit or violation 15 Of OSHA. 16 Q. No# for the purpose of determining what the 17 values themselves were. 18 A. The values were determined by the procedure 19 established in here to the best of our ability. 20 Q. Fine# that's all I need to knew. We have got 21 that. Are you familiar with the Mellon Institute report of 22 July 8# 1966? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. When -- 1 25 .A. Wait a minute. Could I see a copy# please? ' * s KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES f612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012993 149 1 That may be something else. I don't know of the date. 2 Q. Let me keep going. I am trying my hardest 3 here to go fast. Are you familiar with the Mellon 4 Institute report of 1971? ' -- 5 A. Well* again/ are you talking about a report -- 6 a Union Carbide asbestos report? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you are familiar with the results of those 10 studies? 11 A. Wall/ I couldn't tell ycu what they wcra 12 without referring to the report. 13 . Q. Were you provided withthe Mellon Institute 14 report from 1971 when you were in marketing? 15 A. I have received it. I am not sure when it was. 16 Q. When that was received by the marketing 17 department/ was there anything that was done by the 18 marketing department insofar as sales are concerned in 19 dealing with that report? 20 HR. BORGER: Objection/ the question 21 assumes facts not in evidence. 22 A. The sales people were made aware of the report 23 ana were -- well/ I would say the main value of that report 24 was that we could not say our asbestos was any different 25 than anybody else's/ and the sales people would have been * 2* .JC. i KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012994 150 1 instructed to that end. 2 Q. And you were aware, were you net, in 1971 that 3 asbestos caused asbestosis? 4 A. As I said earlier, I learned over a period of ~ if 4V* 5 time. 5 Q. Specifically -- 7 A. Yes, I should have known by *71. 8 0. And that asbestos can cause lung cancer? 9 A. I can't answer specifically for that. 10 Q. And that asbestos can cause mesothelioma? 11 A. I don't know when I learned that. Again, it 12 was.over this time period. \ ' W*. A*.V. \V.V 13 Q. Do you have any knowledge at all about Dr. 14 Selikoff? Have you ever heard that name? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Are ycu aware at all of a conference that was 17 held in New York City in 1964? 18 A. Not that I recall, no. 19 Q. Do you recall getting any kind of reports from 20 anybody at Union Carbide concerning that? 21 A. No, I don't recall. 22 Q. Is Dr. Dernehl still alive? 23 A. I don't know. 24 ) 25 Q. Do you know what the IHF is? A. Industrial Health Foundation. 4 $ KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00012995 151 1 Q. And Union Carbide was a member cf that, true? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. You don't know? 4 A. No. 5 0. You don't know that they were a founding 6 member of that organization? 7 A. I think I have seen that in an interrogatory 8 response, yes; but I don't know that of my own personal 9 knowledge. 10 Q. And are you aware that Dr. Dernehl attended 11 the 1959 IHF conference in Pittsburg? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Khat I am wondering about and the only reason 14 I am asking is, it's already been cone by way of answer to 15 interrogatory that you have signed, what I would like to 16 know -- you signed them. What I am want to know is who 17 gave you that information, if you know? 18 A. I.would assume.Counsel developed them. 19 Q. . Have you ever seen the minutes from the IHF 20 Pittsburg 1959 conference? . 21 A. No, not to myknowledge. 22 Q. So you don't have any idea of your own 23 personal knowledge as to what subject matters were 24 discussed at that conference? 25 A. NO. r.vr. P f'K.. ttiu:;. r-sssS v.vr.i 223 5-: KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (fi-m 922-1955 UCAREF00012996 152 1 Q. Have you ever met Dr. Dernehl? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q- And did you have acquaintanceships with him, 4 not acquaintanceships, did you have contact with him in 5 1967? 3 A. Not that I recall. That's a long time age. I 7 don't remember. 8 Q. I knew it's a long time ago. When do you 9 think you first came in contact with Dr. Dernehl? 10 A. I don't remember. 11 Q. Whan you went to King City in the summer 12 of '37, had you read the the asbestos toxicology report VttV & 13 that' he issued in 1966? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Now, let's talk quickly about warnings. Did I 16 understand you to say that effective in '63, bags of 17 Calidria asbestos contained a warning? r'* 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Were there any exceptions to that rule? 20 A. Yes, as I recall. 21 Q. Tell me about these. 22 A. I can't remember what years but there was one 23 company in Chicago who was exporting asbestos and -- 24 Q. To the U.K.? 25 A. No, and they requested that we net put the 1 mf KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012997 153 1 warning on the bags. In fact* they didn't want any 2 identification on the bags as the supplier or producer. 3 Q. Who produced the bags that the Calidria 4 asbestos was shipped in? 5 A. Several different companies* bag companies. 6 Do you want names? Is that what you are asking? 7 Q. Yes. These are the paper bags now that we are 8 talking about. Did they change from year to year? 9 A. Usually it was changed on low bid. 10 Q. How often would it be put out for bid? 11 A. Whenever we needed bags. *v>-r IP r.v.rir TOW W 12 Q. What kind of frequency would that be* more 13 than annually? 14 A. Of ordering bags? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. Yes* and I don't recall any manufacturers from .'WO-VI 17 this time frame. 18 Q. Would the bags be plain? Would they be 19 manufactured without printing on them? 20 A. We had a few that way* yes. mi 21 Q. After '68# would they be printed with whatever 22 information generally showed up cn the bag? 23 A. In '63* they would have been printed. We just 24 maintained a supply of plain bags. 25 ,Q. For certain customers like Chicago? s KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES f 612 ) 922-1955 UCAREF00012998 154 1 A. For the one customer who was exporting. 2 Q. And was that the only customer? 3 A. That's all that I can recall. , 4 Q. And you recall that from your what* one year 5 in 1967 being there? I am wondering how you know that's 6 the case from '63 onwards when you weren't there? 7 A. I don't know when the plain bags were shipped, 8 which I told you. That was probably -- that was I think 9 when I was in marketing. 10 Q. You went into marketing in 1970, right? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. Can you tell me what printing was on the bags 13 befo.re 1970? 14 A. The wording? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. Exactly, no, Ican't. 17 Q. Well, can you tell me, not the exact wording, 18 can you tell me what was printed on the bags? 19 A. In 1970, did you say? 20 Q. At any time before 1970, can you tell me that 21 or is that outside your own information? 22 A. Wo. It would have been the ~ it would have 23 said Union Carbide and probably King City. Maybe in the 24 early days they used the Mew York address, and the product 25 name was printed on some bags and the net weight. w tSsar 1 ATA\ v Ss? & KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00012999 155 1 Q. And anything alse? 2 A. The name of the bag manufacturer and the year 3 was on the back/ and starting in '63 the warning label. . 4 Q. Khan in '68 do you think? 5 A. I don't recall. 6 0. Were you at King City in '58? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Kare you there in *69? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And than you went back to Niagara Falls 11 in '70/ right? 12 A. Right. 13 . 3. Now/ how do you know what was printed cn the 14 back/ for example in '70 and '71? 15 A. Well/ I suppose by seeing pictures of them or 16 looking at the actual bag. ' 17 Q. Do you have anyhistoricaldocuments that have 18 pictures/ by the way/ of the bags? 19 . A. . Nothing that I can pinpoint. There may be 20 pictures floating around somewhere that show pictures of 21 bags. 22 Q. Were thereanyother customers other than the 23 Chicago group that you talked about earlier that didn't 24 want any warning on their bags? 25 A. Not that I recall. They didn't want it on - if w* m KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES f S12) 922-1955 UCAREF00013000 155 1 bags that they were exporting to, I think it was, Holland. 2 Q. Do you know if any bags were shipped to Conwed 3 that had warnings on them? 4 A. I don't know from personal knowledge. - - 5 w <*"V How would we go about determining that or do 6 you have any suggestions in that regard? 7 A. No, other than the fact that we have testified 8 before that i*e started labeling in 1968, but I don't have a 9 bag -- we do have copies -- no, I guess there is no way of 10 knowing whether that bag was shipped in '63 or '69 unless 11 Conwed would remember. 12 Q. But you do have a copy of a bag that has a 13 warning on it apparently? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Where is that? 16 A. I think it was in the documents. It's a Xerox 17 copy. 18 . Q- Was that produced in relation to some other 19 litigation? 20 A. Maybe it was. 21 Q. Some other case, I mean? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What case was that produced in? 24 A. I think every case. 25 .Q. Did you produce -- what is it, a photograph of - w. H i *s.- v % KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES fS12l 922-1955 UCAREF00013001 157- 1 a bag? 2 A. It's a Xerox of a bag. 3 Q. And your recollection is that that includes 4 the warning? 5 A. I think that's all it induced is just a Xerox 4 .HTvXf X\vK\ VMjAn .y.WiV vivii* 5 of the warning. 7 Q. No, I ax talking about a bag. T know what you 3 are talking about. I am talking about a photocopy of a bag 9 or a picture of a bag. 10 A. I think we have produced that in the past, yes. jassS . VviflfcV il Up "v.viv. 11 Q. I want to make sure we are clear. You say you 12 have given us the wording cf the warning? 13 A. I don't know whether we have given it to you. 14 Q. But I want to know if you have seen or 15 produced a copy, either a photograph or a copy of a 16 photograph of a bag that contained the warning language on 17 it? 18 A. Yes, I think we have in the past. 19 Q. That's fine. It's my understanding that 25 20 percent of the Calidria sales were not made directly by 21 Union Carbide but rather by distributors of Calidria 22 asbestos. Is that accurate? 23 A. I have no idea. 24 Q. Rather than wasting a lot of time trying to 25 round it up, it's part of an answer to interrogatory again KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00013002 155 1 that you signed, and 1 am just wondering where the source 2 of that information comes from, if you know? 3 A. Sales records, I would assume. 4 Q. Were there distributors of Calidria asbestos? 5 A. Yes. 6 2. Werethere anymidwestdistributors of 7 Calidria asbestos? 3 A. Yes. , 9 Q. Who? 10 A. I can't recall. Let me see. There was one 11 located in Chicago and, I think, with an office in 12 Cleveland. Technical Products was one name. Technical 13 Petroleum, I think, was the name used in Chicago. Kallus /. 14 Corporation in Detroit. I can't recall others in the 15 midwest. 16 Q. Are you familiar with a report of Mr. P. R. 17 Cheston dated February 16, 1967? IS A. Not that I know of. 19 Q. Are youfamiliar withMr. W. C.Thurber? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What was his position withUnion Carbide? 22 A. At what time? 23 3. On, let's take 1974,November 11, specifically, 24 of 1974. Well, would you agree that he was the product 25 manager for asbestos at that time? yKv'v 8 KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00013003 159 1 A. I don't know whether he was at that time. He 2 was ray boss. 3 Q. As of November 11 of 1974, you were the 4 marketing manager, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. He was the product manager and, therefore, was 7 your boss? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. Are you familiar with a November 11, 1974, 10 letter that he sent to John Marsh of the Asbestos 11 Information Association? 12 A. Not withoutlooking at it. Idon't know . 13 whether I have seen that before or not. 14 Q. Well, do you haveany recollection of 15 participating in the drafting of that latter? 16 A. No, I don't. 17 MR. THORNSJO: Would you mark that as an 18 exhibit, please? 19 MR. POLK: I sure will. 20 A. I don't recall whether I participated in it or 21 not. 22 Q. Do you have any recollection as to whether Mr. 23 Norris or anyone else that had any interaction with the 24 Conwed Corporation had any input into that letter? 25 A. No, I don't know. *v. .iv.vr Civ/.\v f.viv' vCv7*r. tvv... H KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES e,r (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00013004 150 1 (At this time MYERS Deposition Exhibit 2 27 was marked for identification by the 3 Court Reporter.) ,,\. 4 BY MR. POLK: 5 Q. Prior to this particular case that we are here 6 on today# did you ever come to any personal knowledge that 7 Conwad expressed a concern about the continued use of 8 Calidria asbestos? 9 A. No. 10 Q. In the early to mid-'70s? 11 A. No# I don't remember anything. 12 Q. You were marketing manager up to what year? 13 A. 1981. 14 Q. So you are unaware of any concern expressed to 15 Union Carbide that they were going to cease the purchasing 16 of Calidria asbestos in about 1974? 17 A. Why don't you restate that. 18 Q. All right. Did you become aware at any time 19 in 1974 that Conwed was expressing concern to Union Carbide 20 about continued use of Calidria asbestos? 21 A. Z don't know what year# but I am aware that 22 they stopped using Calidria asbestos. 23 Q. Are you aware that that occurred in May of 24 1974? 25 A. No# I am not aware of a year. m S.V.V. m m im w I ititrJ N rH u w tt f KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (512) 922-1955 UCAREF00013005 131 1 Q. The reason you are not aware of it is because 2 you can't precisely recollect it after this many years? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Were ycu informed of the concerns being 5 expressed by Conwed in 1974? 6 A. I don't recall anything. 7 Q. Well, would you have axpected to have been put 8 on notice through some source of Conwed's concerns? 9 A. I would expect that I would have been aware of 10 it, yes. 11 Q. You wore the head man of marketing asbestos. 12 true? 13 A. I was marketing manager. 14 Q. From a marketing standpoint, you were the head 15 man? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And Hr. Norris worked for you, did he not? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And Nr. Norris communicated with you, did he 20 not? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And he communicated with you on i regular . 23 basis, true? 24 A. I assume so, yes. 25 _Q. And you traveled to Chicago and met with him KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ' a* <522-1955 .T UCAREF00013006 152 , v 1 on a fairly regular basis* dicin'i you? 2 A I don'-. j\r.-,w v 1. /';i< ,>ii iy '`gul-ir* one?1 = 3 year or twice a year. ,, 4 Q I am talking at least once a year* is that ~ 5 fair? 6 A. I would assurs so* yes. 7 Q. And you would agree* would you net* that -- I S think you categorized Ccnwed as being a medium to large .m 9 user? . MR 10 A. As I recall. ' j. 11 Q. Wasn't it the largest purchaser in the country 12 of Calidria asbestos from Union Carbide betwean 1968 and 13 1974? 14 A. I don't recall. 15 Q. Was it one of the largest purchasers? 16 A. I can't tell you anything differently than 17 what I told the prior Counsel. As I recall* they would be 18 medium to large. 1 don't have any sales data with me to . 19 give you a more accurate answer.................. - f 20 Q. You have the sales data at your office in King 21 City to make that determination if it was the largest 22 purchaser of Calidria asbestos between 1968 and 1974? 23 A. I` don't know. ' 24 Q. Did you have any meetings at any time with Hr. 25 Norris to address specifically the concerns that had been * KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (6121 922-1955 UCAREF00013007 :r v n riR K m H W frW 153 1 communicated to Union Carbide by Ccnwed in 1974? )2 A. I don't recall. 3 Q. Do you recall this/ cid you ever ao to Chicago ww.v 4 to meet with Mr. Norris .to address Conwec's concerns? 5 A. I don't remember anything specific. 6 Q. Do you ever remember going to Cloquet/ and I 7 knew Mr. Erownsen asked/ but co you remember going to a Cloquet in 1974 to address these concerns? 9 A. No/ I don't remember going there. jv.r.v ... 10 Q. Do you ever remember contacting your technical 11 department fer assistance ir. attempting to change the 12 position of Conwed? 13 A. No. 14 Q. If a large/ medium to largf purchaser of 15 Calidria asbestos in 1974 told your salesperson that they 16 were no longer going to buy the product and that the 17 salesperson informed you/ his boss/ of that fact/ what 13 would have been your practice at that time to respond to if & 19 that kind of event? 20 A. Zf the company had made the decision there 21 wouldn't have been any response. 22 Q. Would it have been your standard operating 23 practice to attempt to change the mind of the purchaser? tAn. 24 A. Well/ we may meet with them to see count data. ) 25 We nay try to find out what alternate product they were B KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00013008 154 1 going to use and sea if they had a good safety record on it. 2 But a large company that is buying thi3 much asbestos/ 3 there, it would be very little we could do tc change 4 somebody's mind that had the background and the knowledge 5 of their product/ like Ccnved. 6 MR. BROWNSON: Well, I am going to 7 cbjeca to that as to lacking foundation. 8 BY MR. POLK: 9 Q. Would you have done any entertaining of any of 10 the decision making people at a customer from falling into . 11 that category, do you think? 12 A. Entertain them to try to get them to change 13 theix mind? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. I don't think so. 16 Q. Would Mr. Norris have perhaps done something 17 like that? 13 A. He may have, but I don't see how entertaining 19 someone would change their mind on using asbestos. We may 20 have taken them out to dinner. I don't know. 21 Q. Bo you know that one way or another? 22 A. No, I don't. 23 Q. Did he submit expense records to you? 24 A. No, that would have gone to his -- it would 25 have gone to his direct boss. V.Y.V HttV 3vf irj ft i KIRBY A. KENNEDY S ASSOCIATES (612) 922-195? UCAREF00013009 1G5 1 Q. In 1974? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And who was that? :,, 4 A. That would either ba Rcbart Byrne cr Harry 5 Rhodes. o 4 Was there a certain level cf authority as far 7 as expenditures are concerned that Mr. Norris would have 8 had at tha t time frame? 9 A. I don't think there was any policy on the 10 amount of money anybody could spend. If they were over a 11 certain amount, it seems to me it took a different approval 12 of the expense report. 13 a. Dy whom? 14 . A. By tha next person in authority. I guess at 15 another level. You would have to go higher to the next 16 level. 17 a. Did you have any knowledge at any time 13 concerning the Reserve Mining trial that was held in Duluth, 19 Minnesota? That's referenced in this Exhibit 27. 20 A. I have heard of the Reserve Mining situation, 21 yes. 22 Q. Has Union Carbide involved in that case? 23 A. Not to my knowledge. 24 Q. When would you have heard about that? Would 25 it have been before the date that appears on Exhibit 27 . m* rar.r rXtifc *3*.V.'.VA* N Si *- KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00013010 155 1 perhaps? 2 A. I don't know when it took place. I probably 3 would have known about it from the newspapers immediately." 4 Q. And you knew that trial involved asbestos' like 5 material or learned that from -- 6 A. Involved what? 7 Q. Involved asbestos like material? 8 A. I suppose I would have known that, yes. 9 Q. And just tell me hew or where Byrne and Rhodes 10 fall into place here in the continuum of things? 11 A. They were on equal levels underneath me, 12 assistant marketing managers. 13 . Q. And they jointly had authority overMr. Norris? 14 ` A. No. The reason I saidit would be. one cr the 15 other is that the marketing department was at one time 16 divided into sales and technical, and than at a later time 17 it was changed to geographical, and each person had 3ales 13 and technical. 19 Q. You are familiar with the memorandum that H. 20 B. Rhodes wrote to you and others dated September 29, 1975, 21 regarding his visit to the 18th Annual Congress on 22 Occupational Health in Brighton, England in September of 23 1975, true? 24 A. I don't know whether I am or not. 25 Q. You don't have a recollection cf getting a MXw VvfV2fr KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00013011 167 1 memorandum from Mr. Rhodes in that regard? 2 A. No# I don't. 3 (At this time MYERS Deposition Exhibit :' 4 28 was marked for identification by the 5 Court Reporter.) 6 BY MR. POLK: 7 Q. Mr. Myers# cid ycu have an opportunity during 8 the break to review what has now been marked as Deposition . 9 Exhibit 28? 10 A. Yes# I did. I didn't read it word for word# 11 but I did review it. 12 Q. First of all# do you have an independent 13 recollection of receiving a ccpy of that document back in 14 1975 when it was written by Mr. Rhodes? 15 A. I don't remember receiving it. 16 MR. BORGER: Fcr tha record, I would 17 object to this exhibit on the grounds that the copy 13 produced by Mr. Polk contains markings which are made by 19 Mr. Polk. 20 MR. POLK: Well# I will take the slips 21 off. There are also highlighted paragraphs that were not 22 part of the original document. That's what I am going to 23 ask the witness about# John. ' 24 BY MR. POLK: 25 Q. First of all# I understand you don't have an tuaur V23 KIRBY A. KENNEDY S ASSOCIATES UCAREF00013012 153 1 independent recollection of it. Would you agrae on the 2 face of it you were a recipient of the document? 3 A. Yes. 4 0. There are indeed seme markings, carticularly a 5 ~ horizontal short marking that's opposite J. L. Myers. Do 6 you see that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you have any knowledge who made that 9 marking or why that marking happens to be there? 10 A. No, I don't. 11 Q. How about the markings that are opposite 12 numbers one end two at the bottom of the page? Do you have 13 any knowledge as to who made those markings? 14 A. No, I don't. 15 Q. Do you have any reason to dispute the 15 authenticity of the document based on its appearance? 17 A. You mean as to whether Dr. Rhodes actually put 16 this together and signed it? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. No, I wouldn't have any question about that. 21 Qm Is there anything unusual about the document 22 that strikes you as having an affect in any way on its 23 authenticity? 24 A. No, 1 am not sure I understand the question, 25 but I told you I thought it was authentic. 4 Lr.Ti- KIRBY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00013013 19 1 Q. Back in 1975 it would have bean standard 2 business practice in your position to have been the 3 recipient of a document such as Exhibit 23? 4 A. It's a trip report/ yes. 5 2. l.'hat is the background or what was the 6 background of H. B. Rhodes? You called him doctor. - 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Was he a medical doctor? 9 A. No/ Ph.D. in chemical engineering. 10 Q. And is that the same Rhodes that was above Mr. 11 Norris in the marketing scheme? 12 A. If he was at same time/ yes/ that's the same 13 Rhodes. 14 Q. Same one? 15 A. Same one that was in the marketing group/ r.ot 16 necessarily above Mr. Norris because I told you I didn't 17 know what time frame Mr. Norris was there. 13 Q. This Dr. Rhodes/ did he become part of your 19 marketing team when the technical side of the marketing 20 team was combined with the sales part of the marketing team? 21 A. He was part of the marketing group from the 22 beginning. - 23 Q. Notwithstanding his expertise/ apparently/ as 24 a doctor in chemistry .or chemical engineering? 25 A. I don't know what that has to do with -- mm c F u lfil KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES fir. (512) 922-1955 UCAREF00013014 170 1 2. Probably nothing. He just sounds like he is 2 more of a technical man than a salesman is all I am saying. 3 Nowt at the end of that report there is some reference to 4 some abstracts. I don't know if you recall that or not. 5 If you don't/ just take a look at the document. 6 A. There is a sentence that says "If anyone 7 would like to look at the abstracts/' please let ms know." 8 Q. What do the abstracts refer to? 9 A. I am assuming it refers to all the papers to 10 which he has made reference and abstracts of the papers. 11 2. And did you ever request a copy of the 12 abstracts that he is referring to in that memo? 13 A. I don't recall. 14 Q. If he did have a general business practice/ 15 that would have been at that time with reference to that 16 type of issue? 17 A. It would have depended on the contents cf the 18 papers that were presented whether or not I wanted to read 19 more than what he had written. 20 Q. In the context of the memorandum that he had 21 submitted to you in 1975/ would you have requested copies 22 of those abstracts? 23 A. I may have requested some of them/ abstracts 24 of some of them. 25 Q. If you would have done that in 1975/ where 4 vsRr. sr\ & c< *:*r x KIREY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 222-1955 UCAREF00013015 Wfaw-n " m - 171 1 would those abstracts have been put for yourself personally? 2 A. if they had been retained/ I would assume that 3 they would be in some file in Niagara Falls. j.'_ 4 0. What file would that have been? 5 A. I don't knew whether it would be in my 5 personal file or in a general file cn asbestos and health 7 related documents. 8 3. The latter being a personal file that you 5i 9 maintained between *70 and *81? 10 A. You mean a personal file cn asbestos and 11 health? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. I can't remember if there was any. Again/ I a 14 think we went through this. I don't remember a file ' wnmv.uv r*t* 15 specifically for that. 16 Q. I think wTe went through that in the King City 17 locale. But as far as the Niagara Falls locale/ do you 18 have a recollection one way or another whether or not you m ss? 19 maintained a file on health related asbestos issues? 20 A. I think that I did/ yes. 21 Q. As far as you know/ has that file been 22 preserved? 23 A. I don't know. 24 ' Q. Your personal file that doesn't relate to 3 25 asbestos related issues/ has that been preserved/ if you KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00013016 1TZ 1 know? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. You do know that you don't have it? - 4 A. When I say personal fils, I don't mean the -- 5 I meant that I kept it in my office primarily rather than 5 being in son a other place and whether these files were 7 transferred over to the next subsequent marksting manager. 8 most of them were. 9 2. Who was that? 10 A. Mr. Byrne. 11 2. And who was the last marketing manager in the 12 asbestos area? 13 A. Mr. Dickson. 14 2. And Mr. Byrne, is he alive? 15 A. To the best of my knowledge. 16 Q. Do you know where he is? 17 A. Somewhere in Michigan, I think. As I said in 18 the last deposition* I think it's Paw Paw, Michigan. 19 Q. Do you know what he does up there? 20 A. He is retired. 21 Q. Would you expect that the files that we have 22 just been talking about would now be located in Pittsburg? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Why is that? 25 A. Maybe I should say I have no idea what's been A\ M". M fwT* .i. * k J3fc- r P i ! KIRBY A. KENNEDY S ASSOCIATES (6121 =>22-1955 UCAREF00013017 173 1 done with the files there. 2 Q. Now, I want to make sure that I understand 3 Exhibit 28 correctly. I think it's on the lest page. 4 the gist of Dr. Rhodes' conclusion that the problems of 5 asbsstos causing mesothelioma are going to get worse before 6 they get batter? " 7 A. I think rather than ms stating that, it would 8 be better if I read hi3 conclusion. 9 0. Sure. 10 A. "In summary, I got theoverall impression that 11 there is a great deal of concern that the mesothelioma and 12 even the asbestos picture will get worse before it gets 13 better." 14 Q. Thank you. Now, personally as the marketing 15 manager, did you take any action of any kind in response to 16 the concern being addressed or the concern being 17 communicated by Dr. Rhodes in that memo? 18 A. What kind c acticn? 19 Q. Was there any follow-up tothat concern? In 20 other words, did you in the marketing department perhaps 21 meet to discuss this ongoing problem? 22 A. Not necessarily. It was not a problem for us 23 necessarily. 24 Q. That answers my question. The perception that 25 the marketing department had at that time was that Calidria xzj.. I & 4* S KIREY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00013018 174 1 was not capable of causing mesothelioma? 2 A. I don't think it would be stated that 3 emphatically; but I think bas^d cn the mecical scientific- 4 literature# it was the general feeling that chrysotile did 5 not cause mesothelioma. 6 Q. And you were aware of that in 1975? 7 A. I would think that I would have been by then, 8 yes. It would have been our general feeling. 9 Q. And you were aware of that in 1975 because you 10 had gotten information from your technical department and 11 your medical department# true? 12 A. Not necessarily those sources. They would be 13 from published information# whatever the sourc'?. I didn't 14 have someone independently evaluate it. Any feeling like 15 that was based on published literature, not published by 16 Union Carbide or the technical department. It was based on 17 published literature. 18 Q. . You came to that understanding or conclusion 19 or feeling# if you will# in 1975 based on published 20 literature. Anything else? . 21 A. If I came to that in '75# yes. I am not sure 22 of the timing of that. It's been reinforced through the 23 years but I don't know when it first started. 24 Q. Well# then I have to backtrack# Mr. Myers. I 25 am sorry# but I understood you to say that in 1975 it was "if 3?& * la KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00013019 175 1 the marketing department's feeling that Calidria was not 2 capable of causing mesothelioma. Am I overstating ycur 3 testimony? ; 4 A. I think you asked me if we did anything 5 further or had any further meetings about this concern over 6 mesothelioma, and I said that I ccn't think we did anything 7 particularly because we didn't seam to involve short fibre 3 chrysotile asbestos. I don't think we had a concrete 9 opinion at that time. 10 Q. Kaybe you didn't have a concrete opinion but 11 that was your impression at that time and your impression, 12 however strong or weak it may have been, was based on 13 published literature? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And the published literature, was that read 16 personally by yourself to come to that conclusion or was it 17 a conclusion that you came to by being provided with the 18 information through some other department in Union Carbide? 19 A. Maybe you should restate the cuestion. 20 Q. Sure. Did you come to that impression or that 21 conclusion in this time frame based upon your own reading 22 of the published literature that you relied upon? 23 A. Yes, I would say generally that would be true. 24 Q. And did you or someone under your direction go 25 out into wherever you went to gather up that public & KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES fS12) 922-1955 UCAREF00013020 175 1 literature to lead you to the impression thct you had at 2 that time? . 3 A. I don't remember going out anywhere to gather' 4 it up. Whatever comes across a person's desk as far as 5 journals or copies cf articles out of journals. 6 Q. Exactly. The journals that addressed this 7 issue that led to that impression/ were they subscribed to 8 by the marketing department? 9 A. No/ I don't think we subscribed to any. 10 Q. Did they come to Union Carbide through a 11 department of Union Carbide? 12 A. Not that I recall. 13 1 . Q. Kow did the articles themselves get to your 14 desk? 15 A. Being routed by someone or being read in the 16 library. 17 Q. It was routed to you through the medical 18 department on some occasions maybe? 19 A. Possibly/ yes. 20 Q. Industrial hygiene department? 21 A. Possibly. 22 Q. Marketing department? 23 A. That's what I was. 24 Q. People under you/ though? 25 A* I suppose. * KW.Y /\ s Vv <r v t * Vi * i KIRBY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES (5121 922-1955 UCAREF00013021 17 7 1 Q. Routing things tc you? 2 A. I suppose. 3 0. Any other sources that would have been a 4 provider t o you of these kind of articles that you relied 5 on? o A. Probably the Asbestos Association. 7 Q. Okay. w.'vvt** S A. I can't recall every source of every article. 9 Q. And you are unabla, I am sure* to' tell us as 10 you sit here today specifically what articles you relied . - spgl 11 upon in forming that impression? 12 A. You mean like a bibliography? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A Yes, you are correct. I cannot. 15 Q. Was there ever a bibliography drafted by 16 anyone at Union Carbide that supported the impression that 17 chrysotile asbestos fibre did not cause mesothelioma? 13 A. Not that I am aware of. 19 Q. Did you read the Mellon Institute reports of 20 1966 and 1971 as standing for the proposition that 21 chrysotile asbestos fibre did not cause mesothelioma? 22 A. To the bast of my recollection, those reports 23 did not address mesothelioma. - S'* 24 Q. What did they address? * A 25 A. They addressed a study on animals that showed *r mt- KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00013022 173 1 Union Carbide asbestos caused essentially the same 2 reactions in animals as other chrysotile fibres. 3 Q. Including asbestosis? 4 A. I don't remember how the wording was; but as I <; md say, I don't think they mentioned mesothelioma. 6 Q. Do you have any information at all or did you 7 ever have any information at all that Calidria asbestos did 8 not cause asbestosis or was not capable of causing 9 asbestosis? 10 A. Did I have any at that time? 11 Q. At any time. 12 A. Yest I think I said earlier that the recent 13 literature tends to indicate that short fibre chrysotile is 14 innocuous. 15 Q. You did and I apologize. TJhat is the source 16 of that? I assume because it's recent you may remember it. 17 A. I can't give you chapter and verse. There is 18 one paper by Dr. Vu of the Environmental Protection Agency; 19 Dr. Muhle of Germany. I can't remember any other 20 specifically. 21 Q. Is that a conclusion in your mind of Dr. Vu 22 and Dr. Muhle, that short fibre is innocuous? 23 A. Dr. Muhle essentially said that short fibre 24 chrysotile was innocuous. Dr. Vu doesn't say it that 25 specifically. She says that it's far less hazardous than KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (512) 922-1955 UCAREF00013023 170 1 longer fibres. 2 Q. Who financed Dr. Muhle's study? 3 A. I have no idea. 4 *w> * You don't know that whether -- 5 A. All I say was the record a year or so after it 5 was publis hec. 7 Q. In what text? 8 A. It was a British journal of medicine or 9 something like that. 10 Q. Now/ I just have a couple other questions here 11 with refer ence to warning. Did you have any input into the 12 wording cf the warning? ' 13 . A. No. 14 Q. Who determined what warning words would be 15 used? 16 A. From '6S to '72? ' 17 Q. Let's take that/ sure. 18 A. That I don't know. 19 Q. Where was the warning printed on the package 20 itself? 21 A. As I recall/ it's on the face right under the 22 name of the product and before the name of the manufacturer. 23 C. The name of the manufacturer being who? 24 A. Union Carbide. 25 Q. So would it have been in the middle of the bag? / r.'Vvv Titvft $1\MV, KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES < -t 12 ^ 929-1QCS UCAREF00013024 W N W H 'm e W t * '*> *f : l i f l M M t f 130 1 A. Lower middle. 2 Q. And that was, I think you said, in blue ink on 3 white paper for a time? , 4 A. On the high purity pellets that would be true, - 5 yes, as I recall. 6 Q. And was the warning tha same for all fibre or 7 pellet types? 3 A. For all Calidria products the warning was the 9 same. 10 Q. And that warning said, "Warning, breathing 11 dust may be harmful. Do not breathe dust.r Would you 12 agree with that? 13 . A. Well, I would agree that that sounds ccirr.-:'; 14 as worded in the interrogatory. 15 2. In the interrogatory answer? 16 A. Interrogatory answer. 17 Q. And that was the wording of the warning that 18 allegedly anyway was placed on the bags in 1968, correct? 19 A. Yes. , 20 Q. And what month does that process start in? 21 A. Again, I am not sure which was *68 and which 22 was '72 because there are two warnings here. I assume or 23 maybe I shouldn't assume that. There is one listed first, 24 which probably was 1958, and 1 answered before I don't know 25 which month* r ass. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00013025 y m w mi 1 3. Can you tell by looking at th? warning which 2 warning came before the other one? 3 A. No, I can't. ' .. 4 Q. You C3r.' t? .- 5 A. No. I said presuming that they arc- listed in 6 that crder. 7 3. As a former technical superintendent, are you 8 able to make an educated guess as to which warning perhaps 9 came first and then which warning was in response to the 10 OSHA requirements? 11 A. I prafer not to make any kind of a guess, 12 educated or uneducated. 13 3. How about just based on your experience as the 14 marketing manager? I mean, you were a marketing manager in 15 1970. Do y cu know which warning was being used at that 16 time? 17 A. No, I would not swaar to which one was used 18 when. 19 Q. And you don't know who came up with the 20 warning language? 21 A. No, I don't. Not for the first one. 22 Q. How about as to the second one? 23 A. The second one -- the other warning starting 24 in *72 was the warning prescribed by OSHA. 25 .3. Prescribed by OSHA, prescribed directly to W. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00013026 192 1 Union Carbide? 2 A. In the asbestos standard published by OSHA in 3 1972. -- 4 Q. how, did you knew that breathing dust may-be 5 harmful in 1958? 6 I can't recall, =3 I acid ycu. It probably 7 was in the late '60s when I learned that. 3 0. I am just using the wording cf the warning. 9 Did you know that breathing dust may be harmful? 10 A. And I said, I learned that probably in the 11 late '60s. 12 . 2. So before the late '60s, didn't ycu know that 13 breathing dust may be harmful? 14 A. Any kind of dust? 15 Q. I don't know. I am just reading the warning. 16 I am asking you? 17 A. I don't know. I don't recall something that 18 specific. 19 Q. And it says also in that warning, "Do not 20 breathe dust." Can you explain to me how someone is 21 supposed to fellow that warning if they arc working with 1 22 the Calidria product? 23 A. By avoiding any creation of dust, wetting the 24 product as it comes out of the bag or just being very 25 careful to have adequate ventilation or wear a respirator. yw.* : m .iCur*. m % KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES i?\ c22-1955 UCAREF00013027 13? 1 I mean# there are several different ways to limit the 2 amount of dust generated. 3 Q. And your own employees in your own King City^.'- 4 plant had been using respirators for at least five years 5 prior to this warning coming cut? 6 A. They would use them in specific areas. 7 Q. Are you familiar with any correspondence going a to the Asbestos International Association? By the way# do 9 you know where that association was lccatsc? 10 A. It is located inLondon. 11 Q. Are you aware of getting copies cf any 12 correspondence to that association? 13 . A. What time frame? 14 Q. 1975 to 1930. 15 A. No# I don't recall ar.v. 16 Q. Do you know Jchn Marsh? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You have met him? 19 A* Yes. 20 2. Have you ever gone to Asbestos International 21 Association meetings? 22 A. Have I? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. Yes. 25 ,Q. How many do you think you have attended in the MRU? ilair $ & KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00013028 13^ 1 past when you were working for Union Carbide? 2 A. You mean meetings per se? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. Once* I think. 5 2. Where was John Marsh located between '75 and 6 73 or *79? 7 A. I guess he was in Connecticut. ' 3 Q. Who was he employed by? 9 A. Raymark or Raybestos Manhattan. 10 Q. Raybestos Manhattan at the time. I think they 11 had changed their name to Raymark at the tire. 12 MR. THORNSJO: Objact as a 13 mischaracterization. 14 BY MR. POLK: 15 Q. Did you have any correspondence with Mr. Marsh 16 directly relating to the labeling cf the Calidria asbestos? 17 A. Not that I recall. 18 Q. Did you participate in any communications with 19 Mr. Marsh relating to the labeling of asbestos being sent 20 to Europe* specifically Germany? 21 A. You have been talking about labeling. I 22 assumed you were talking about domestic labeling. 23 Q. I didn't limit the question to domestic 24 labeling. I am talking about labeling in Europe. 25 A. Okay. I don't know whether I communicated & tm *v.r sjss KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (6121 922--1955 UCAREF00013029 V* r*M >% * " * ' r n 195 1 with Marsh unless it would have been with him as the 2 representative through AIA in the labeling discussions I 3 remember was whether or not to use a lower case a tc th - " 4 bags cf fibres. 5 2. Well# do you have any recollection of any 5 discussions that came up? This would have been in the 7 iate '70s to give you a time frame, about a skull and cross 8 bones being put on your bag? 9 A. There were records# as I recall# in Europe, 10 what kind of a symbol to use for asbestos. 11 Q. And that symbol was a skull and cross bones, 12 was it not? 13 A. That's one of the categories cf dangarous 14 substances. There are several different catagoriss. 15 Q. And didn't Union Carbide work with .Tohn Marsh 18 and others of the Asbestos International Association in the 17 late '70s to get around that problem of putting a skull and 18 cross bones on Union Carbide's bags of Calidria? 19 A. I wouldn't word it that way# no. 20 Q. Row would you word it? 21 A. The industry# and I don't know whether Union 22 Carbide was directly involved# but the industry was trying 23 tc -- got the acceptance of utilizing the lower case a to 24 identify asbestos rather than the skull and cross bones. 25 The skull and cross bones wculd have been# I would say# an y.v.*x* i W W t l - M B # '* - ' S' ? KIRBY A. KENNEDY S ASSOCIATES / sn UCAREF00013030 1T 1 improper type of symbol for asbestos not being an =acut5 2 toxic material. It would detract from other materials 3 wnich ware acutely toxic. 4 Q. So in the late 1970s it was Union Carbide's 5 position that the Calidria asbestos was not an acutely 6 toxic material/ is that a fair statanent? 7 A. I don't knew whether it was Union Carbide's 8 position. I think it's a universal position. 9 Q. Well/ universal as far as the Asbestos 10 International Association was concerned? 11 - A. I don't think there is anyone that says that 12 asbestos is acutely toxic. 13 Q. Are you familiar with Sir Neville Stack? 14 -' A.' . Yes. 15 Q. Who is he? 15 A. I am not sure what the title is exactly/ but 17 he is the executive director -- managing director of the 18 AIA. 19 Q. Did you correspond with him at any time? 20 A. I have/ yes. 21 Q. What would havebeen thecontext of your 22 correspondence with him? 23 A. I don't recall anything in the years which you 24 have been discussing. 25 ,Q. What years would you have beencorresponding m * & .-v % 5* KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00013031 1 37 1 with him? 2 A. Last year. You know, in the last two or three 3 years it's been more. 4 0. Is KCAC a member of the Asbestos International 5 Association 7 6 A. No. 7 Q. You would have been corresponding with him in 8 the last year or so for what purpose? 9 A. Well, I attendee a meeting over there and I 10 think he sent back or they sent me minutes of the meeting. 11 things like that. 12 Q. In what capacity did you attend the meeting? 13 A. Representing the Asbestos Information 14 Association of North America. 15 Q. And that is an association funded directly by 16 Union Carbide, true? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you know that one way or another? 19 A. You mean is it funded by Union Carbide? 20 Q. Yes, or in part funded by Union Carbide. 21 A. You mean today? 22 Q. Yes. 23 A. No. 24 Q. Who funds that organization? 25 A- It's members. * is- V fr .c 1 2 KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES I ?A q;s UCAREF00013032 1S3 1 2. Is Union Carbide a member? 2 A. No. 3 0. What was the purpose of the meeting in 4 Brighton? - , - 5 A. It Was a regular quarterly meeting I think. I 6 think they have their meetings quarterly. 7 Q. Do you have some representative capacity for B the Asbestos Information Association? 9 A. You mean at that meeting? 10 Q. Yes. I mean, are you ,an officer of the 11 Asbestos Information Association? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What office do you hold? 14 A. . Chairman. 15 Q. How long have you been in that position? 16 A. , I think since *32. 17 3. How long has that group been around/ that 18 organization? 19 A. I think it was founded in 1970 or 1971. 20 Q. What was the purpose of the organization? 21 A. I wasn't involved with its founding. 22 Q. Are you familiar in your capacity now with 23 that organization as to do you know the purpose for the 24 formation of the organization? 25 A. The prime purpose of the organization for the W 9S K 'A<v w- vr KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612} 922-1955 UCAREF00013033 1 QQ 1 years that I have been involved with it is to disseminate 2 information on the use of asbestos, the health aspects. 3 That's abou t it. '- , 4 Q. Then did you become a member? 5 A. Individuals don't become members. 5 Q. `.'.'as Union Carbidi ever a member? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Were they a member in 1970? , 9 A. No, I don't think so. 10 - Q. A3 far as you know did Union Carbide 11 participate in any way in the establishment of that 12 organization? 13 A. I don-'t know, but I don't think so. 14 Q. When did they -- 15 A. f'iaybe I should just say I don't knovr whether 16 they were. Maybe you can tell me why you don't think so 17 because I think they joined later. 18 Q. When? 19 A. I think in 1972. 20 Q. And were you the person from Union Carbide as 21 of *72 that was the contact person between Union Carbide 22 and the Asbestos Information Association? 23 A. Nc. 24 a. When did you play that role, if at all, when 25 you were employed by Union Carbide? - T ' . fi. ~ y:' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (512) 922-19**5 UCAREF00013034 1 r> n 1 A. I don't recall. It was the late '70s. 2 Q. Was there correspondence that went between the 3 Asbestos Information Association ~nd the Asbestos ' 4 International Association? . 5 A. I assume so> yts. 6 Q. And where was tha Asbestos Information 7 Association located? 8 A. What time? What year? 9 Q. 1970. 10 A. I think it started in New York. . ffis 11 Q. And did the location of its office change at 12 any time after that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Tc where? 15 A. To Washington, D.C.. 16 . Q. Okay. 17 A. And then tc Arlington, Virginia. 18 Q. Is that where it's presently located? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Who from Union Carbide was the person who had 21 the contact with the Asbestos Information Association from '72 22 until you took over in the late '70s? 23 A. If Union Carbide became a member in '72 Mr. 24 Thurber, as far as I remember, was the first representative 25 and Dr. Rhodes suceeded him. * KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ( ol ? 1 QOO-IO'iS UCAREF00013035 'P 'V flW v Y 'M ' ' |M W ' W 1 o' 1 MR. POLK; That's all . have. Thank you. 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION .. 4 SY MR. DIEHL: 5 Q. hr. Myers, ray name is Robert Diehl. I have a 6 couple cf questions. Are you aware of any sales of 7 asbestos-containing products to Conwed at any tire by Union 8 Carbide other than the high purity pellets? 9 A. I ora not aware cf anything specifically, no. 10 . Q. Do you know who Union Carbide's primary 11 competitors were for the sale of asbestos fibre to Conwed 12 Corporation? 13 . A. No, I don't. Generally I would say it would 14 be Canadian asbestos, but I don't know which. 15 . Q. Rave you ever heard cf a company that used to 16 sell asbestos in large burlap bags mined in South Africa? 17 A. I have read about those things, yes. 18 . Q. Do you have any knowledge of South African 19 asbestos being used at Conwed? 20 A. NO. 21 MR. DIEHL: That's all I have. Thanks. 22 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION 24 BY MS. GROVE: 25 Q. I have a couple of questions. I am Sandy S KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES ff12) 922-1955 UCAREF00013036 \ m m ' * # * 1 oCCVCJ I representatives A. w. Chesterton Company Has 2 Union Carbide ever mined asbestos other than Chrysotile? 3 A. Not tc ry knowledge. 4 Q. Has Union Carbide over sold asbestos other 5 than Cr.ry3ctile? 6 A. Not to my knowledge. 7 Q. Has Union Carbide ever mace any studies on 8 premises other than its own? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. When did you firso conduct these tests? 11 A. At the milling and mining operations. Thoy 12 bsgan in 1953 or 1964. 13 . Q. Where were they conducted? 14 . A. At the. mining and milling operation near King 15 City# California/ that was -- 16 Q. In 1953. That was before you were working for 17 Union Carbide/ is that right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Have you seen records of the results of those 20 tests? 21 A. I have seen some, yes. 22 Q. Do you have any records or does Union Carbide 23 have any reports of the result's of those tests that exist 24 now? 25 A. 1 would think they cc have, when they copied - "V i r. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00013037 1 the files I think they copied thess kind of things. 2 Q. Do you know who was responsible for 3 instituting those tests? 4 A. I would say that it was ths Union Carbide- 5 medical department. 6 MS. GROVE 7 questions. 8 don't I'.av-: anv cth^r 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. THORNSJO: 11 C. Mr. Myers, I have just a couple cf questions. 12 You had stated that the percentage of chrysotile in the or: 13 that was mined at the Xing City mine war about 90 percent? 14 A. Over 90 percent. 15 Q. Can you tll us what the rsmainirc roughly 10 16 percent consisted of? . 17 A. iMainly serpentine rock that has not changed to 18 Chrysotile asbestos* 19 MR. BORGER: For the record, Counsel, I 20 think his testimony was 98 to 99 percent. 21 MR. THORNSJO: I think that's the 22 pellets. 23 MR. BORGER: Okay. 24 EY MR. THORNSJO: 25 Q. VJhat else other than serpentine type rock? fm i 7W KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (512) 922-1955 UCAREF00013038 1 1 A. I can't; think cf the nan-s. I will say that 2 there was a total absence of tremolits, if that is what the 3 question was. - 4 Q. -ire there any other types cf asbectes 5 amphibole fibres? 6 A. Tne reason I ar saying that is we have just 7 been through this ana there is actually no evidence of any 3 amphibole evidence cf fibre. 9 Q. So as a practical matter it is pure serpentine? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What is the contaminants in the final pellet 12 * product/ you said 99 percent pure? 13 A. Magnetite/ which is iron cxide. Moiscure is 14 retained maybe one percent/ and that's about it/ very pure 15 product. 15 MR. THORN3JO: Thank you. 17 18 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. BROWNSON: 20 Q. I have just a few more questions for you if I 21 could. Do you know what Amosite ajsbestos is? 22 A. No. .' 23 Q. Never heard of that designation? ` 24 A. No. 25 Q. Getting back to the air monitor tests at KIRPY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES fM?! '527-1955 UCAREF00013039 135 1 Conwed don* by Mr. Klnber, a:s you aware if in August cf 2 1972 the OSHA standard of five fibres per CC was an eight 3 hour time weighted average? 4 A. Yas, it was. 5 Q. Is there anything in the report which Union 6 Carbide s-nt to Conwed which indicated that in fact the 7 standard was an eight hour time weighted average? 3 A. I would have to look at the report again. 9 Q. Exhibit 21. 10 A. It says, "Enclosed for reference is a copy of 11 the OSHA standard." So they would have to look at the 12 standard to see what -- I rrean, there it would say that it 13 was an eight hour time weighted average. 14 2. Is there anything other than the standard 15 which would tell Conwed that the five fibres per CC was ai 16 eight hour time weighted average in the report submitted by 17 Union Carbide? 18 A. This isn't an eight hour time weighted average, 19 1 don't believe. You would have to ask Mr. Kleber. 20 Q. Is there anything that would tell that the 21 standard is an eight hour time weighted standard rather 22 than them reading the actual OSHA standard themselves? In 23 other words, did Union Carbide ever tell them that? 24 A. I am sure they did, but it's not written on 25 j this report. KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES Q27-1955 UCAREF00013040 196 1 Q. When you say you are sure th^y did, hew are 2 you sure of that? 3 A. That would just be c. matter we would discuss- ' 4 with customers or anybody for whom we were doing the report. 5 Q. With whom would you discuss that, do you know? 6 . A. The salesman, probably, or Nr. Kleber could 7 nave talked about it. 8 *. The salesman in this case being Tom Norris? 9 A. He was there in *72, yes. 10 Q. Is there anytning in the Union Carbide report 11 or anywhere else in any of the reports that Union Carbide 12 sent to Conwed which would tell Conwed how to convert Union 13 Carbide's numbers into an eight hour time weighted average? 14 A. No, I don't think we would recommend doing 15 that on this limited amount of data. 16 Q. Why wouldn't you? 17 A. I think in subsequent years perhaps or tests 18 we determined that it was best to run at least a four hour 19 sample to convert it to an eight hour time weighted average. 20 Q. Would you agree with me then that the data 21 that Union Carbide provided to Conwed about the air 22 monitoring at the Cloquet plant was insufficient for Conwed 23 to determine if it was in compliance with the OSHA standard? 24 A. No, I think it was well sufficient because the 25 allowable one time exposure or ceiling level* I think at -i rXiCC g & 5? MV v as KIRBi A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES tZl?) 9??-lc*55 UCAREF00013041 1 that time, was 10 fibres and that's what in most cases 2 these would be representative of comparing it to a 10 fibre 3 limit. 4 Q. But were you aware tnat the workers in the 5 plant would be there more than just walking through; in 6 ether words, they wart there eight hours a day, right, you 7 were aware of that? 3 A. No, I am not aware of that. 9 Q. Well, would that be safe to assume? 10 A. No. There is a lot of cases where they would 11 use asbestos and go over and do something else, not be 12 adding asbestos. That's the.reason for collecting 13 environmental samples. 14 0. Let me ask you tnis. r. as it your 15 understanding that the only way a person could be exposed 15 to asbestos in the common plant "was by throwing these 17 beater bags into the hopper? 18 A. No. I don't know what >lse was in the Conwed 19 plant. I have no idea where else they might have been 20 exposed. . 21 Q. I guess I am wondering how you can say that 22 they were only exposed for a few minutes? 23 A. Well, I am going by the times here. 24 Q. Would you agree with me that for a worker who 25 did spend eight hours a day working with Union Carbide 3& tr m m KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES UCAREF00013042 19 1 Calidcia asbestos in the Conwod plant at clooust that for 2 that worker the appropriate standard in 1972 to determine 3 if he was at risk would be the OSHA ^ight hour time 4 weighted standard? A. Yes. They were ooth applicable# the ceiling <5 level and the eight hour time weighted average and you 7 could calculate somewhat of a time weighted average from 8 this# I think. In other words, I think this would be a 9 maximum level of exposure. If you converted this to eight 10 hour time weighted average it would probably be much lower. 11 It would certainly net be any higher than any of these 12 numbers. 13 Q. How do you knew that? 14 A. By knowing something about the method of 15 calculations. 15 Q. How do you know that the moment for the brief 17 period of time that those tests were taken that there was 13 not peak exposure in progress? 19 Am Well, that ia why I said it would become more 20 routine to collect at least a four hour sample. These were 21 on two hours. 22 Q. That's why you want a longer sample so you can 23 see if there are peaks and valleys in the exposure? 24 A. So you can see what the actual exposure is. 25 Q. And that's why OSHA requires a time weighted X & k KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 922-1955 UCAREF00013043 1?? 1 average? 2 A. But the sample is not collected for eiaht 3 hcurs. 4 '2. I understand that. 5 A. A two hour sample/ I wculd say in tt.is case, was adequate because of tnc- io.. level cf fibres. 7 Q. 3ut was it a;l nu:.tfc tc calculate an eight hour 3 rime weighted average? 9 A. I would rather you ask Mr. Klaber cr someone 10 more expert in air monitoring. 11 Q. Did you over ask him that w.V-n you reviewed 12 the report before issuing it to Ccnwed? 13 A. Not that I recall. 14 Q. Were you aware at the time you reviewed the 15 report before issuing it tc Cor.wad that the eight hour time 16 weighted average was required by CSHA? 17 A. Was I aware that there was an OSHA standard 18 and what it was? 19 Q. Right. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did you say earlier that Union Carbide had 22 nothing to do with helping or assisting Conwed in 23 determining if the Calidria was appropriate for its product 24 formula? 25 A. I don't remember you asking that. * &U -s.n % KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (S12) 922-19^5 UCARE F00013044 210 1 Q. Well# let me ask you now. rid Union Carbide 2 hava anything to do with helping or assisting Conwed in 3 determining if Calicria asbestos was appropriate* for its 4 formula? 5 A. I don't know. 6 3. Was that dons as a service to customers? 7 r. If it was request'd, yes. 8 Q. . Do you know if it was requested in this 9 instance? 10 . A. No, I don't. 11 MR. BRONNSON: I guess that's all I have 12 got. 13 14 r.ECROSS-EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. POLK: 16 Q. Do you know what a developmental agreement was 17 in 1965? 18 A. Do I know? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. No. to* * is* - 21 3. That's Exhibit 17. To summarize, it's a 22 letter from Tom Hall, who was then the sales manager of the 23 asbestos group, to Mr. William Walsh cf the Wood Conversion 24 Company and he talks in terms of the developmental *>r .) 25 agreement. Dc you have any knowledge where we might obtain il KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (612) 522-l?c UCAREF00013045 201 1 a copy of the developmental agreement that's refarre-d to 2 there? 3 4. KOm . 4 Q. It decs t ? 1 k about a contract- tbcucY 5 concerning purchase of Calidria asbestos# true? o A. I don't know. 7 Q. Do you want to take a look at it? 3 A. What was the question? 9 Q. It was a contract for the sale andpurchase of 10 Calidria asbestos# isn't that true? 11 A. Wall# Union Carbide asbestos. Thera is no 12 mention of Calidria. 13 Q. Calidria, the trade name, didn't coma until 14 whan# '66? 15 A. I answered oefere I don't renerber. 16 3. I am sorry. But in any event# Union Carbide 17 asbestos# it's a contract for the sals and purchase of a 18 certain amount of that in a given period of time# true? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And that document or that letterseems to 21 confirm an agreement that Ccnwed will purchase a certain 22 number of tons of Union Carbide asbestos over a certain 23 period cf time# is that true? 24 A. That's what you just said and I answered that 25 it did but it looks like it's 1#000 tons to be shipped in V' KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (12) 922-1955 UCAREF00013046 2C2 1 car lead lo ts according to a schedule which "cod Conversion 2 shall establish and I don't see any time frame. 3 0. Ycu don't :s: any tiros frame but the ' 4 comnencemen t of the shipments is to begin when, according 5 to that document? G. A. April 1, 1955. V-\ And as far as you knew have you reviewed any 8 sales docurn ants in connection with Cor.wed in preparation 9 for your dc position hen? 10 A. No. 11 r* * Can you tell us the average amount cf tons of 12 asbestos that was sold by Union Carbide tc Cor.wed? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Qkay . 15' A. Both of ua maybe didn't read this clrarly. It 16 says under an initial 12 months program commencing April 1 17 they will a eliver 1,000 tons. csap 18 . 19 Q* So that would be 1,000 tons in 12 months? A. If they ordered that much. saz 20 Q. Okay. Now, can ycu tell me, is Tom Kail the 21 person that wrote that letter in 1955 the same as Dr. T. J. 22 Hall?' -Vtr Jsf- 23 A. Yes. ` 24 ) 25 Q. So is he a doctor of, do you know what? A. NO. PSS XIRBY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES (512) 922-1955 UCAREF00013047 2?3 1 Q. Do you know him? 2 A. As I said earlier, I think I have met him. I 3 am not sure. He was before my time in the business. 4 Q. Do you know how long he was the sales manager 5 for the asbe stos group? 6 A. No, I con':. 7 3. Do you knew this, when you went out to Xing 8 City in '67 was he the sales manager? 9 A. No, I don't think so. I think that was Mr. 10 Satter. 11 0. Dc you know vher*' Hr. Hall or what position 12 Hr. Hall took with Union Carbide after h: was no longer thr 13 sales manage r? 14 A. No. 15 C. Dc you know a Hr. Humptcn? 16 A. Yas, Dr. Mumpton. 17 Q. Was he in Brighton? 18 A. No. I mean, he may have visited there. 19 Q. He wasn't stationed there? 20 A. No, he was located in Niagara Falls. 21 Q. Niagara Falls in the asbestos group? 22 A. He did work with asbestos. I am not sure 23 whether there was a group at that time but he was either a 24 minerologist or geologist. 25 3. And at the time of Dr. I. C. Sayers report, 4 *5? % s KIRBY A. KENNEDY S ASSOCIATES (512) 922-1955 UCAREF00013048 2D* 1 December 5/ 1967/ you would have been in '<ins City es the 2 technical superintendent/ we talked about that? 3 A. In December of '57, yes. 4 Q. But in December you would have been the 5 technical superintendent and you would have ohvsically been 6 in King City at the mill? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And cld you knew at any tine that Dr. T. J. 9 Hall and Dr. Mumpton were in Brightonparticipating with 10 Dr. Sayers in the study that's Deposition Exhibit 7, did 11 you ever know that? 12 A. No/ not until right now. 13 MR. BORGER: If in fact that's the case. 14 BY MR. POLK: 15 Q. Can you answer this/ I know you don't knew 16 what Dr. Hall's position was as of December of '67/ but do 17 you know where he was based? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that he was 20 not in the sales area for asbestos as of December of 1967? 21 A. Yes/ because I think Norm Satter was marketing 22 manager. Dr. Hall may have been in the New York office in 23 export sales perhaps or international sales/ but I think he 24 was in that position at some time. I don't know the dates. 25 Q. Are you aware that those sales concerned the : 4* > \ **fr44H KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES <6121 922-1955 UCAREF00013049 ?05 1 U.K., specifically# and Germany? 2 A. No# I said I didn't know for sure that that's 3 what he was doing. . 4 Q. New, do you know a Dr. R. R. Sayers, have you - 5 ever heard that name? 6 .%v* V#V- 7 >ki * So you don't hove, based or. your history with 8 Union Carbide/ you don't have any knowledge cr hearsay or 9 otherwise that Dr. I. C. Sayers is the son of Dr. R. R. 10 Sayers? 11 A. No, I don't know that. 12 Q. And you remember the interrogatory I showed 13 you with the two warnings? 14 A. Yes. 15 3. Did thes^ warnings over chang: 3t any time to 16 up to this time? 17 A. No. t'Jell, y3, OSHA has changed their wording 18 as of 1986. 19 Q. Do you put a warning on the bags of Calidria 20 that you send over to Japan? 21 A. In Japanese, yes, and English. 22 Q. What does it say? 23 A. I don't remember. In Japanese you mean? Do 24 you want a translation of the Japanese. 25 Q. Are they two different things? The IvjKv & KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (512) 922-1955 UCAREFOO013050 20* 1 translation from Japanese says something dif .it than 2 what the warning in English says? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. V.'hy don't ycu give ira what the Japanese 5 translation is? 6 A. I don't knew that. 7 Q. You don't? 8 A. t;et offhand. 9 Q. How about the English warning now'/ what does 10 it say? 11 A. I would have to get an OSHA standard, I don't 12 know. 13 Q. Let me ask you this. Does it say that 14 asbestos can cause cancer? 15 A. I am not sure if the werd cancer is mentioned 16 in the current -- 17 Q. For Calidria asbestos when was the first time 18 that Union Carbide or anyone else selling Calidria put the 19 word cancer on a bag? 20 A. The wording was never put on a Union Carbide 21 bag that mentioned cancer. 22 Q. That mentioned cancer? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. It was put onsubsequent then to July of '85? 25 A. Yes. tv:-:* /t.vT*.'A*-r* K n s iu u t'& m KIRBY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES (512) 922-1955 UCAREF00013051 2C7 1 MR POLK: That's all I havs. Thank you. 2 MR. BORGER: Anyone else? 3 (At thi.3 time a brief recess was taken.) 4 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. BORGER: 7 *. Mr. Myers, referring you to Exhibit 17F, which 8 is that March 26, 1965, letter from Mr. Hall, I call your 9 attention to Page 2. By that exhibit do you see any 10 indication that Wood Conversion or Conwed accepted the 11 agreement and the timetable as outlined ir. the March 26 12 letter? 13 A. No, there is no signature. 14 Q. Do you know of your own personal knowledge 15 whether shipments began on April 1, 1955? 16 A. No, I don't. 17 Q. Is it possible that shipments from Union 18 Carbide to the Wood Conversion plant in Cloquet actually 19 commenced sometime significantly after April 1, 1955? 20 A. Yes, I have no idea when they did begin. 21 Q. The other area I wanted to get into with you, 22 Mr. Myers, is the term acutely toxic which Mr. Polk was 23 asking you about. Would you tell us what you mean by the 24 term acutely toxic? 25 A. Well, what I was saying was that asbestos is KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES (6121 922-1955 UCAREF00013052 1 not considered an acutely toxic material. An acutely toxic 2 material would be something such as cyanide or something 3 that, causes an immediate health affect or death. It's ^ 4 generally agreed that asbestos disease occurs 20 to 30,,to 5 40 years after exposure and therefor? it would not be 6 considered an acute toxic material. 7 MR. EOR3CR: Thank you. I have no 3 further questions. We will exercise the right to read and 9 sign. 10 MR. EF.0WN30N: Just for the record, I am 11 going to take my exhibits and return them to the Reporter 12 prior to the diposioion on Tuesday. 13 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ' Hr" v. m r KIRBY A. KENNEDY ASSOCIATES (512) 922-1955 sff UCAREF00013053 v* i; 21 n 1 2 3 STATE OF MINNESOTA ) 4 ) SS. COUNTY OF HENNEPIN ) 5 6 Ev. it known that I tcck the deposition cf 70 HN L. MYERS/ on the 6th day of January 1989/ at Minneapolis/ 7 Minnesota; 8 That I was then and there a Notary Public in and for 9 the County of Hennepin/ State of Minnesota/ and that by virtue thereof/ I was duly authorized to administer an 10 oath; 11 That the witness before testifying vas by ns first 12 duly sworn to testify the whole truth and nothing but the truth relative to said caus:; 13 14 That the testimony cf said witness was recorded in Stenotype by myself and transcribed into typewriting under 15 my direction/ and that the deposition is a true record of the testimony givan by the witness to the best cf my 16 ability; 17 That I am not related to any of the Dirties hereto 18 nor interested in the outcome of the action; 19 That the reading and signing of the deposition by the witness was executed as evidenced by the preceding 20 page; 21 That Notice of Filing was waived. 22 WITNESS MY HAND AND SEAL this 10th day of January 1989. 23 24 Kirby A. Kennedy 25 Court Reporter KIRBY A. KENNEDY & ASSOCIATES /em aw---! a*,*. U CAR EF00013054