Document v6KYqoxzr2oRZORveRxjq41G8

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS BEAUMONT DIVISION CECIL SCOTT, ET AL VS. MONSANTO COMPANY * * * CIVIL ACTION * NO. B-84-1103-CA * * * VOLUME I VIDEO DEPOSITION OF ELMER P WHEELER 9:37 a.m. to 4:45 p.m. May 7 , 1987 Holiday Inn - Camden Lugoff, South Carolina 1 Reported by: Linda C. Baker Texas CSR No. 505/Notary Public Nell McCallum & Associates 2900 Smith, Suite 104 Houston, Texas 77006 (713) 523-3767 Taxable Cost: $ Charged to: DAVID M. LACEY, State Bar No: Attorney for: Plaintiffs ESQ. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024358 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 For the Plaintiffs: 3 DAVID M. LACEY, ESQ. 4 Gilpin, Pohl & Bennett 1300 Post Oak Boulevard 5 Allied Bank Tower, 23rd Floor Houston, Texas 77056 6 7 For the Defendant: 8 JONATHAN B. SHOEBOTHAM, ESQ. Woodard, Hall & Primm 9 4700 Texas Commerce Tower Houston, Texas 77002 10 11 Videotechnician: 12 James Heironimus Executive Service Groups 13 14 ******** 15 16 Deposition of ELMER P. WHEELER, taken on 17 May 7, 1987, at Holiday Inn - Camden, Lugoff, 18 South Carolina, between the hours of 9:37 a.in. 19 and 4:45 p.m., before Linda C. Baker, CSR No. 505 20 and Notary Public in and for the State of Texas, 21 at the instance of the Plaintiffs, pursuant to 22 Notice and the Federal Rules of Civil procedure. 23 24 ******** 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024359 1 TABLE-QF CQHTBHTS 2 WITNESS: ELMER P. WHEELER - VOLUME I 3 4 5 APPEARANCES 6 PROCEEDINGS 7 8 EXAMINATION BY: Mr. Lacey 9 10 AFTERNOON SESSION -- CONTINUED EXAMINATION BY: 11 Mr. Lacey 12 WITNESS SIGNATURE PAGE AND JURAT 13 14 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 15 LAWYER'S NOTES 16 17 18 19 20 ******* 21 22 23 24 25 3 EAGS 2 4 5 104 200 201 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024360 4 1 *** VOLUME I *** 2 May 7, 19S7 3 4 5 PROCEEDINGS G 7 THE VIDEOTECHNICIANs Okay. This 8 video deposition is being taken in Cause 9 No. B-84-1103-CA and is filed in tne 10 United States District Court for the 11 Eastern Division of Texas, Beaumont 12 Division. The style of the case is Cecil 13 Scott, et al versus Monsanto Company. 14 For identification purposes, tne 15 videotechnician is James Heironimus of tne 15 firm Executive Service Groups. The 17 Certified Court Reporter present today 18 is Linda Baker of the firm Nell McCallum & 19 Associates. 20 The date today is May 7th, 1987. The 21 time is approximately 9;37 a.m. 22 We are here today to take the oral 23 and video deposition of tne witness, 24 ilr. Elmer P. Wheeler. 25 At this time, will Counsel please NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024361 5 1 state their appearances for the record. 2 MR. LACEY: David Lacey, for the 3 plaintiffs. 4 MR. SH0E30THAM: Jon Shoebothaia, 5 representing Monsanto Company. 5 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN: Would the court 7 reporter please swear in the witness. 8 9 * ***** * 10 11 ELM5S.Pt HHfiELE.S/ 12 having been first duly sworn, testified as follows: 13 14 EXAMINATION 15 16 QUESTIONS BY MR. LACEY: 17 Q Will you state your full name for tne record, 18 please? 19 A My name is Elmer P. Wheeler. 20 Q Where do you live, Mr. wheeler? 21 A I live at 110 Cool Springs Drive, Camden, South 22 Carolina. 23 Q We're here today at a spot very close to your 24 home, then. Is tnat correct? 25 A Yes, sir; about seven miles. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024362 6 1 Q Okay. Have you been deposed before? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q Okay. You are familiar, then, with the process 4 of taking a deposition. 5 A Through oneexperience, sir. 6 Q Okay. If at any point you feel like you need 7 to stop and take a break, just let us know, and we'll do 8 that. Okay? 9 A Thank you. 10 Q Can you tell me about your employment history? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 I graduated from college in 1936 with a degree 13 in chemistry in the College of Technology at the 14 University of New Hampsnire. 15 That fall I was nired by the City of Concord, 16 New Hampshire, Healtn Department as a sanitarian. The 17 principal job was to ensure the hygienic conditions in 18 food-handling establishments, meaning restaurants, 19 milK-pasteurization plants, working with the public on 20 complaints of nuisances. 21 In the fall of 1937, the doctor who had been 22 the Health Officer for the City had become head of the 23 State Department of Health. And he arranged for me to 24 taice courses in -- originally, in biology and Public 25 Health at the Massachusetts Institute of Tecnnology. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024363 7 1 I was tnere until January or 1937 -- although 2 the intention was that I be there for the full year -- 3 working toward a degree, which in the case of MIT was 4 called a Certificate, rather than a Master's Degree; a 5 Certificate in Puolic Health. 6 I was called back in -- at the end of the first 7 terra to work for the State Health Department in the 8 initiation and establishment of an industrial hygiene 9 program for the state. 10 From then until the beginning of the school 11 year in September of '38, I visited -- I don't recall 12 the number -- perhaps 200 industrial plants in the 13 state, with two other part-time employees and with the 14 head of the unit. 15 We covered every employer -- every -- every 16 employer's establishment in the state that employed over 17 five people. This was ray indoctrination into the 13 industrial world. 19 New Hampshire had a wide variety of types of 20 industry, I think, representing almost every type, other 21 than skilled production, refining, ana pharmaceutical 22 industry. The biggest industries were manufacture of 23 shoes, woolen and cotton mills, the mining of granite -- 24 we were the Granite State -- many woodworking 25 establishments, furniture-making, et cetera. IMELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024364 8 1 At the end of the summer, when we had completed 2 this survey, which covered, I think, 93,000 employees, I 3 went back to school at MIT. But by tnat time my 4 interests nad turned more to the specialty of industrial 5 hygiene, rather than the field of Public Health. 6 The courses that I took at MIT were essentially 7 wnat might be considered premed courses that included 8 biology, physiology, communicable diseases, sanitary 9 engineering, statistics, public health administration; 10 whereas, the industrial hygiene courses were offered by 11 the Harvard School of Public Health. So I spent that 12 year taking courses at both institutions. 13 With tne switch in emphasis from general public 14 health to industrial hygiene, I ended up without the 15 opportunity to do a thesis at either school that would 16 have led to a graduate degree. 17 I returned to New Hampshire at the end of that 18 school year, which would be June of 1938. 19 In 1940 the -- during the period from then 20 until I was called to active duty on April 17th, I 21 believe, 1941, I carried out detailed industrial hygiene 22 surveys of many of the plants in the state where such 23 work had been indicated by the previous walk-through 24 studies. This included foundries, the quarrying -- 25 granite quarries, shoe manufacturing, paper NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024365 9 1 manufacturing. 2 Perhaps I didn't mention earlier that 3 Monsanto -- that -- that New Hampshire had a number of 4 large paper-production plants. 5 In 1941, in April, I went on active duty with 6 an anti-aircraft unit, because I'd -- to help put rae 7 through college, I'd taken ROTC. And I went on duty as 8 a First Lieutenant with an outfit that eventually went 9 overseas and was in the African Theatre from Casablanca, 10 crossing all of the nortnern area of tnat part of 11 Africa, ending up in Tunisia; and then going to Sicily, 12 in October of '43 to Italy, to Anzio; and the unit 13 returned home from Anzio April of '44, 14 The need for officers in anti-aircraft, perhaps 15 somewhat surprising, was not as great as it had been; 16 because even that early, the Luftwaffe was somewhat 17 on --on its decline. 18 There was a demand for industrial hygienists to 19 serve in a laboratory under the direction of the Surgeon 20 General of the Ariuy. And I was transferred from 21 anti- -- from coast artillery anti-aircraft to the 22 Sanitary Corps and assigned to the Army Industrial 23 Hygiene Laboratory -- excuse me -- wnich was based at 24 the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health at 25 Baltimore. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024366 10 1 We were quartered there until, I believe, just 2 after V-J Day, when the laboratory was moved to an 3 installation that was witnin the Chemical Corps of the 4 Army near Aberdeen, Maryland. 5 I had decided and nad indicated that I thought 6 that that type of service, which provided industrial 7 hygiene services for Array-owned, Army-operated 6 installations -- and there's a distinction nere; 9 because, of course, during the War there were many, many 10 contract companies making tanks and ammunition, what 11 have you, within the Ordnance Department of the Army, 12 and they had their own industrial hygiene unit. So we 13 were concerned with tne Army-owned, Army-operated 14 installations, which I think at that time nad perhaps as 15 many as a million and a half civilian employees. 16 I had thought from experience with one Naval 17 installation when X was working with the State Health 18 Department -- I had experienced some difficulty in 19 trying to provide a service for tnat installation -- 20 that the military should continue with a cadre, at 21 least, of people in peacetime in the event of any 22 further mobilization of -- of people. And I decided to 23 stay with the lab, with the laboratory as a civilian 24 employee. 25 And I did so until July of 1947, when I left NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024367 11 1 the Array laboratory and joined Monsanto as an industrial 2 hygienist. 3 And I was with Monsanto for 29 years, retiring 4 at age 60, 11 years ago. 5 Q Well, that -- what year was that that you 6 actually retired? That would have been 1976? 7 A Yes, sir; June 30th, I believe. 8 Q You retired prior to I guess what I'm thinking 9 of as the normal retirement age at 65? 10 A Yes, sir. We had retirement programs where 11 people could retire after -- I guess in my case tne 12 provision was with 25 years' service, and being over age 13 55 -- without a too-signixicant loss of pension. 14 Q So you cnose to take an early retirement from 15 Monsanto. 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q What job did you take when you joined Monsanto 13 in 1947? 19 A I joined Dr. Kelly, who was the Medical 20 Director for the company, as tne first industrial 21 hygienist the company employed. 22 Q Where was that employment located? 23 A At the company's headquarters in St. Louis. 24 Q When you were serving as a civilian employee in 25 the Army afcer World War II up to '47, where were you NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024368 12 1 stationed? 2 A Excuse me. At -- at the time I oecame a 3 civilian employee, we were not at Johns Hopkins. We had 4 moved to -- I'm ashamed I can't remember the -- the name 5 of the installation, but it was a chemical -- Army 6 Chemical Corps operation with an adjacent ordnance 7 installation called Aberdeen not far away, but -- S Q What's - 9 A --it was on theoutskirts of Baltimore. 10 Q Okay. In the Baltimorearea? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Now, if I understand what you've told me 13 correctly, you -- your Bachelor's Degree was a straight 14 chemistry- -- 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q -- type degree? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q And then -- 19 A But in the College of Engineering, not in Arts. 20 Q And then you nave done work at both HIT and at 21 Harvard in areas that have - scientific relevance, but 22 neitner one of those led to an actual certificate or a 23 degree. 24 A Tnat's right, sir. I was sweating out air 25 raids, if you will, in -- in Algiers when I received NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024369 13 1 correspondence that if I didn't finish a -- a thesis in 2 the next three months, I was losing my opportunity to 3 get a graduate degree. 4 Q Had you completed all of the course work by 5 1938 to -- that was required for a graduate degree? 6 A 1 think so, sir. 7 Q Okay. And did you ever start any work on a 8 thesis -- 9 A No, sir. 10 Q Okay. That -- that would have led to a degree 11 in -- a Master's Degree in Public Health? 12 A I'm not certain now, sir. I think, as I 13 indicated, MIT issued wnat they -- somewhat the 14 equivalent of a Master's Degree, but what they called a 15 Certificate in Public Health; whereas. Harvard granted a 16 Master's Degree, a Master of Science Degree. And I'm 17 not sure, frankly, wnich university would have given me 18 tne degree. 19 Q I see. 20 A I would have hoped it would have been Harvard; 21 because by that time my empnasis was on industrial 22 hygiene, and that was their forte. 23 Q What generally does an industrial hygienist do? 24 A An industrial hygienist is concerned witn the 25 work environment as it relates to many factors tnat NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024370 14 1 could have an effect on health. 2 This includes working with chemicals. It 3 includes the harmful effects of excessive noise, the 4 effects of excessive radiation, poor lighting. 5 And these various aspects have led to 6 specialties within the field of industrial hygiene as 7 subareas of specialties, if you will. 8 The control -- the engineering control of 9 exposures is -- requires expertise that an analytical 10 chemist might not have to analyze samples tnat the field 11 industrial hygienist would take. By the same token, the 12 analytical chemist would not necessarily be prepared to 13 design an industrial exhaust ventilation system. The 14 chemist nor the engineer would not be an expert in the 15 field of toxicology. 16 The general practitioner, if you will, in tne 17 industrial hygiene field or, as our Certification Board 13 designates it, the comprehensive practice of industrial 19 hygiene, has some background and knowledge in all of 20 these areas, out not -- may not necessarily be an expert 21 in any one of the component aspects of the practice. 22 Q Is the field of industrial hygiene basically 23 concerned with trying to protect the health and safety 24 of the worker in the work environment? 25 A I should have answered your question with a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024371 15 1 definition of "industrial hygiene." And I don't know 2 that I recall the exact definition any more, but it 3 is -- it has been defined as the art and science of 4 protecting workers, and, more recently, the total 5 environment, and promoting the health of people. 6 Q I guess what my question is directed to, for 7 example, is whether an industrial hygienist is primarily 8 concerned with protecting -- and let's just take an 9 industrial hygienist who works for Company X -- his 10 primary obligation is to see that the workers at that 11 company have a safe place to work and protect their 12 health, as opposed to, for example, being primarily 13 responsible for protecting the health of people who may 14 buy the products of Company X. 15 A I believe the -- a -- an industrial hygienist 16 working for a company does nave some responsibility to 17 see that the company's products are not only 18 manufactured safely, but are transported and used 19 saf ely. 20 And I'd like to make a distinction. You've 21 mentioned the word "safe,"and perhaps the definition of 22 "industrial hygiene" doesn't necessarily point this out; 23 but the industrial hygienist* is concerned with the 24 environment, which on the surface may appear to be 25 harmless. And the working conditions are something that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024372 16 1 prevail 40 hours a week -- eight hours a day, 40 hours a 2 week. 3 Safety engineering, on the other hand, is 4 concerned with preventing an accident. Most accidents 5 are preventable. They're more concerned with the 6 mechanical environment of the worker. They're 7 snort-time, acute instances. 8 So there is tnat distinction between a safe 9 environment and a healthful environment, for purposes of 10 the definition. 11 Q Let me see if I understand what you're saying. 12 First, as you see the -- the job of industrial 13 hygienist, it's not just for the workers of the company 14 ne's working for, but also for people who may use the 15 products of the company. Correct? 16 A By my definition, yes, sir. 17 Q Okay. And then if we look at the particular 18 hazards that may exist in the workplace, the proolem of 19 an improperly stowed piece of equipment that could fall 20 on somebody's head, wnile that wouldn't be outside the 21 role of industrial hygienist, would be primarily 22 something the safety engineer would look at; whereas, 23 the problem of the cumulative effect of daily exposure 24 to something like noise or chemicals or poor lighting 25 that might acculumate over time would be more the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024373 17 1 province of the industrial hygienist. Correct? 2 A I believe that's correct, but I may mis- -- 3 may -- may have misunderstood whether you said the 4 falling of a heavy object would or would not be within 5 the province of an industrial hygienist. 6 Q Well, as I understand it, it would be within 7 it; but it would be more something that a safety 8 engineer would look at than an industrial hygienist. 9 A Definitely. 10 Q Okay. And maybe if we -- if we separated those 11 two things out -- you used the word "acute." The safety 12 engineer's more concerned about the acute sort of 13 instantaneous-type problems; whereas, the industrial 14 hygienist is more concerned about the long-term 15 chronic-type problems. 16 A That's right. 17 Q Okay. 18 Is there a board or a group or association of 19 people who practice industrial hygiene? 20 A There is the American Industrial Hygiene 21 Association, which I joined in 1943. I was on tne Board 22 of Directors for eight years. I was president in 1958 23 to '59. 24 There's a second group entitled the American 25 Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists, whose NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024374 18 1 membership or the membership of which is limited to 2 Government employees and those in universities and 3 research institutes. I -- I can't say that 4 industrial -- industry-employed peoples are barred, Dut 5 I don't know of any that are members. I think their 6 charter probably specifies that it's an independent 7 group. 8 The two work very, very closely together. Tney 3 are -- most of tne ACGIH members are also AIHA members. 10 The AIHA membership when I was president was 11 probably 1300 to 1500 people. Today it's nearer 8,000. 12 The two organizations sponsor an annual meeting 13 attended by not only people in the United States, but 14 from abroad. 15 The American Industrial Hygiene Association now 16 nas, I think, 50 local section groups, including several 17 in Canada, Great Britain, Italy, and I believe Spain and 18 France, Japan. 19 In addition to the AIHA, I belong to the Air 20 Pollution Control Association and was first 21 vice-president of that group at one time. 22 I'm a member of tne -- or an emeritus memoer of 23 the American Chemical Society. 24 I was a Fellow of the American Association for 25 the Advancement of Science. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024375 19 1 I've been a memoer of the American Public 2 Health Association, the Research Society of America, the 3 British Occupational Hygiene Society. 4 I served on an advisory committee of the , 5 Environmental Protection Administration for four years, 6 and for a similar period I was on an industrial liaison 7 panel for tne Food Protection Committee of the National 8 Academy of Sciences. 9 Q Wood protection? 10 A Food. 11 Q Food protection. I'msorry. 12 Going back to the American Industrial Hygiene 13 Association, that's one of these two general bodies for 14 industrial hygienists? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q And the only one for whicn you would have been 17 qualified for membership, because you weren't at a 18 Government institution or whatever. Correct? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q What criteria exists for becoming a member of 21 tne American Industrial Hygiene Association? 22 A A -- one of the requirements was three years of 23 practice in the field -- I believe it was three years -- 24 plus academic -- anappropriate academic background. 25 Q Were any tests required? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024376 20 1 A For membership? 2 Q Uh-hun. 3 A No, sir. 4 There is the American Board or Industrial 5 Hygiene, which certifies members in the comprehensive 6 practice of industrial hygiene as well as its several 7 subdivisions, including air pollution, toxicology, 8 analytical chemistry, et cetera. 9 And I am certified oy that Board, but I was 10 grandfathered in when the Board was established by the 11 American Academy of Industrial Hygiene. Subsequent to 12 that, the new -- the new people that have been certified 13 have had to take examinations. 14 Q And when you say you were "grandfatnered in," 15 you mean you didn't have to take that examination? 16 A That's right, sir. 17 Q What -- what's the relationship between the 18 practice of industrial hygiene and occupational 19 medicine? I've heard those terms sometimes used 20 together or generally associated. How do those things 21 relate to eacn other? 22 A Occupational medicine, of course, requires a -- 23 a medical degree to practice occupational medicine. 24 The term also is sometimes used as 25 "occupational hygiene," which would include the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024377 -e occupations. Industrial Hygiene Asl The -- on the otiier hand, t, hygienists, being nonphysicians, are i meaoership in tne Occupational Medical Q Are people wno practice occupat. concerned about the same things that indue hygienists are concerned about? in other w two disciplines working toward the same goal protecting workmen in the workplace? ^ I I would say the objective in Doth the protection and promotion of the health of wor ^ lot ---- the big difference in the occuoa health field is that there are many physicians wno & part-time and who are responsible for the care and health of Department store clerks and insurance company employeesi nonmanufacturing types of employment* On the otner hand, those who are employed with manufacturing companies are not only aware of but consider tne industrial hygienist their right hand; because in tneir case, they again are noc familiar with the engineering tecnniques of devising control equipment, although they can well recognize a need for it, nor are they prepared to do analytical chemistry. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024379 23 1 in tnat field? 2 A Yes, sir. Tne head of their program was a 3 world-renowned lady. Dr. Anna Baetjer, who was the Dean 4 or the Director of the school. 5 May I have a drink of coffee? 6 Q Certainly. You can feel free to -- to go ahead 7 and drink coffee wnile we're doing this, if you want. 8 Tnis is informal; and any tirae you want to stop, take a 9 oreak, do anything, you tell us, and -- we're at your 10 pieasure. 11 A Thank you, sir. 12 Q What program was this lady the head of? What 13 was her name? 14 A Dr. Anna -- middle initial B, I believe -- tne 15 last name was Baetjer, B-a-e-t-j-e-r. 16 Q And she headed up what sort of program there 17 at -- 18 A She headed up tne -- I tnink tne wnole -- I 19 tnink tne exact name was the School of Hygiene and 20 Public Health. 21 Q Okay. And you said she was world-renowned for 22 her work? 23 A I beg your pardon? 24 Q She was, you eay, world-renowned for her work? 25 A Yes, sir. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024380 24 1 Sne was also an advisor to the Army Industrial 2 Hygiene Lab. In fact, our laboratories were across from 3 her office. 4 Q Is tnat located at -- on the main campus there 5 of the Johns Hopkins? 6 A No, sir. Tnis was 615 South Wolfe Street, 7 across the street from the Johns Hopkins Hospital. 6 Q I see. A little bit north of downtown 9 Baltimore there? 10 A I would say west, sir. 11 Q West? Okay. 12 Now, let me try to understand what the 13 situation was there at Monsanto when you came on hoard. 14 You mentioned that there was a Medical Department -- is 15 that correct? -- when you arrived at Monsanto in 1947? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q And what groups were in existence in the 18 Medical Department, or what specialties were already 19 represented there? 20 A Dr. Kelly became Medical Director for the 21 company, I believe, soon after he got out of the 22 service, which may have been *45 or *46. 23 When I joined him, tne department had in 24 addition two part-time physicians, a medical technician, 25 and a secretary. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024381 25 1 Q These part-time physicians: Did they have any 2 particular specialties or roles in the department? 3 A Tne -- their chief function was to -- in the -- 4 in the case of one gentleman, to perform pre-employment 5 and periodic physical -- physical examination of the 6 people in the main office facility. 7 Q When you say "the main office,* are you talking 8 about the people like the -- the executives at the 9 company, or -- or you mean people -- 10 A Ho, sir. I'm differentiating from the 11 manufacturing plant, which was next door. 12 Q And they -- he did or did not work in the 13 manufacturing plant? Wnen you said "main office," does 14 tnat mean the manufacturing plant? 15 A No, sir. 16 Q Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. So one person worked 17 in the nonmanufacturing -- worked with the 18 nonmanufacturing employees in tne main office? 19 A Performing pre-employment, periodic physical 20 examinations -- 21 Q All right. 22 A -- and nandling paper cuts onthe part of 23 secretaries, perhaps, and this -- 24 Q Heavy-duty duty? 25 A The second gentleman Dr.Kelly, I think, NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024382 26 1 designated as Assistant Director was a Professor at 2 Washington University Medical School in St. Louis. And 3 his function was pretty much the same, except he was an 4 older man than the younger one that I've mentioned and 5 was teaching preventive medicine at Washington 6 University Medical School. 7 And as a matter of fact, for one or two years, 8 I guess, I lectured to his juniors in medical school on 9 the importance and the -- the -- the fundamentals of the 10 practice of industrial hygiene. 11 Q Do you recall the name of this individual who 12 performed the medical exams for the -- 13 A I -- 14 Q -- the office people? 15 A I remember both their names, sir. The senior 16 man was Dr. George Saunders. 17 Q And this was the one who did the examinations? 18 A He was -- he also did examinations, but he had 19 a -- a broader background in tne field of preventive 20 medicine. He did not have his own practice of medicine. 21 He left Monsanto and became the Medical Director for 22 MoDil Chemical -- Mooil Oil Company. 23 The other fellow, who was younger, was Dr. Ray 24 Mezera, who's deceased. Well, I -- I'm sure 25 Dr. Saunders must be deceased, too, at this point. But NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024383 27 1 Dr. Mezera suffered a stroke -- oh, I would say soraetiiae 2 in the early '70's, before I retired. But he -- he 3 still worked part-time for Monsanto, although his chief 4 activity was running his own practice of internal 5 medicine. 6 Q It was Dr. Saunders who was tne assistant -- or 7 the Professor at the Washington University and also the 8 Assistant Director? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q Okay. And heeventually went on to Mobil Oil? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Now, werethere anypeople in theMedical 13 Department who actually performed examinations for -- 14 for people who worked in the manufacturing facilities? 15 A No, sir, althougn tne group did include the 16 Research -- Organic Division Research people, which may 17 have numbered 100 people or so. 18 Q You're talking about the group that Dr. Mezera 19 looked after? 20 A Yes, sir. The plant next door had its own 21 physician, sir. 22 Q And was he a part of the Corporate Medical 23 Department or not? 24 A No, sir. He was an employee of the plant. 25 Q Okay. And was that true for each of the plants NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024384 28 1 that Monsanto -- 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q -- nad? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q What duties did Dr. Saunders basically carry 5 out at the time you arrived at tne Monsanto Medical 7 Department? 8 A Again, he was primarily concerned with the 9 periodic -- excuse me -- periodic physical examinations 10 of employees. I believe it was the more senior 11 employers (sic) . I -- I believe he was with us one 12 morning a week and one afternoon a week, something of 13 that sort; whereas, I believe Dr. Mezera was there every 14 for enoon. 15 Q Did -- were tnere a lot of -- other tnan 16 routine physical exams, were there a lot of accidents or 17 things like tnat that needed treatment? 18 A No, sir. 19 Q Okay. 20 A I don't recall a single accident that caused 21 any lost time. I -- I was not trying to be jocular, 22 particularly, when you mentioned the paper cuts, because 23 those are not infrequent. 24 Q And they hurt. 25 A I've had a few myself. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024385 29 1 Q I have, too. Painful. 2 Dr. Kelly was, then, the only person who was 3 working full-time with a medical background or even a -- 4 a particular academic training background when you 5 arrived at the Medical Department? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q And you became the second full-time trained 8 person in the department? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q Prior to your arrival, I -- I take it that 11 the -- to the extent that the obligations or the 12 functions of an industrial hygienist or somebody 13 involved in occupational medicine was carried out, that 14 fell on Dr. Kelly's shoulders? 15 A Yes, in tiiat he routinely visited tne Monsanto 16 plants and supervised the -- or reviewed tne activities 17 of the local plant physicians, wno, again, for tne 18 saialler plants, which were the largest number that we 19 had, were part-time physicians; and with management, of 20 course, of tne plant, as well as the safety engineers at 21 tne plant, 22 Q How many plants did Monsanto have at that time? 23 A I believe about 20. 24 Q Were they all located in the United States? 25 A No, sir -- no, sir. I'm sure that at that time NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024386 30 1 we had one plant in North Wales through a wholly-owned 2 subsidiary in Great Britain. And I believe there were 3 two in Australia. There were two, I believe, in Canada 4 that were Monsanto Canada, which I do not think was 5 wholly owned by Monsanto at that time. 6 Q Monsanto nad an interest in it, but not 100 7 percent ownership? 8 A I believe that's right, sir. 9 Q The Medical Department was stationed in 10 St. Louis, Missouri? 11 A The Corporate Medical Department; yes, sir. 12 Q Which is where you and Dr. Kelly were? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q And did the CorporateMedical Department nave 15 responsibility for ail tne Monsanto facilities 16 worldwide? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q So -- well, let me ask itthis ways Were -- 19 were the other -- not just the Medical Department, out 20 was -- was the group of people there in St. Louis 21 generally, the other departments, also responsible 22 ultimately for what was happening around the world? I 23 mean, was that the world headquarters of Monsanto, I 24 guess is the way I'd put it. 25 A I can't answer that, sir. I don't know how NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024387 31 1 much autonomy units otner tnan the Medical Department 2 may have Deen given. 3 Q So all you can be sure of, as far as the 4 Corporate Medical Department went, you were the world 5 headquarters? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q Was the president of the company located there 8 in St. Louis? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q So most -- were most of the chief officers of 11 Monsanto there in St. Louis working with you all? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q Did your -- the extent of your supervision or 14 responsibility for Monsanto facilities include going 15 overseas from time to time to see other facilities 16 overseas? 17 A I believe Dr. -- excuse me; I believe 18 Dr. Kelly's first trip to the plants in Great Britain IS was in -- I think in 1954. 20 Our part-time Medical Director for Monsanto in 21 Great Britain visited us in St. Louis in '55. 22 And in 1956 I went to Europe for the first 23 time. 24 Q How many times did you travel overseas for 25 Monsanto while you were with the Medical Department? NELL MC CALLUM 8t ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024388 32 1 A As I just indicated, the first trip was in 2 1955. Tne next trip was in 1969; again in 1970; and 3 pernaps tnree or four more trips, with the last one, I 4 think, in December of 1975, six montns before I retired. 5 Q When you arrived at the Medical Department, did 6 you and Dr. Kelly make a division of the overall 7 responsibilities that tne Medical Department would have 8 between the two of you? 9 A No, sir. 10 Q Well, how -- what -- after you arrived at 11 Monsanto and got your feet on the ground, what job 12 responsibilities fell to you? 13 A My principal job was to visit all of the 14 Monsanto locations at intervals; review the operations, 15 in terms of looking for exposures that were 16 satisfactorily controlled or which needed furtner 17 control; making recoromendations for any improvements 18 that I felt were necessary. 19 I might add that Dr. Kelly also visited every 20 plant, I think, at least once a year to review tne 21 medical records of our employees and to review with the 22 physicians and, again, witn safety engineers and witn 23 plant management any circumstances that might need nis 24 attention. 25 Q How frequently were you in Monsanto facilities? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024389 33 1 A How frequently was I in Monsanto facilities? 2 Q Yes. I'm talking about plants now. 3 A Yes. I understand. I -- I don't have the oest 4 of hearing. 5 Q I'll try to speak up. 6 A Again# I was pretty much scheduled to visit all 7 the plants at least once a year, and tne larger plants 8 at least twice a year, and at any other time that they 9 asked for my services or it appeared that a visit would 10 be profitable. 11 Q Would you make surprise visits to see what was 12 really going on, or did they always know you were coming 13 and have a chance to kind of get things in order in case 14 that seemed appropriate? 15 A I never arrived at a plant unannounced. I also 16 have -- tnere's no question in ay mind that the plants 17 took special measures to prepare them -- to prepare 18 the -- excuse me; to prepare the plant for my visit. 19 Q Sure. I mean, that's just like cleaning the 20 house when you've got company coming. 21 A I don't tnink they did that for my -- for me, 22 si r. 23 Q They didn't? 24 A No, sir. 25 Q Okay. Well, what sort of special precautions NELL MC CALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024390 34 1 did they take, or what did they do to prepare for your 2 visits? 3 A Well, tney probably made hotel reservations; 4 arranged to have me picked up -- 5 Q Uh-hun. 6 A -- arranged that the safety engineer, the 7 physician, the manufacturing superintendents would be 8 availaole to go tnroug'n the plant with me. 9 They might entertain me the first night, if it 10 was a -- more than a one-nignt visit. I was probably 11 alone the second, third, and fourth nights. I spent 12 many, many nights having dinner alone in hotels and 13 motels in 29 years. 14 Q Not a very pleasant experience. 15 A Certainly not at the end. I -- I used to 16 enjoy -- if I was in New York for a committee meeting, I 17 used to enjoy walking the city, and the same in 18 Washington. But I think that became imposs- -- 19 impossible sometime in tne '60*s. 20 Q Your -- you expectation was when you went to a 21 Monsanto plant, even thougn they knew you were coming, 22 tnat -- that they didn't take any effort -- didn't make 23 any effort at all to -- to get tnings in order; you 24 anticipated that it was business as usual. 25 A I don't know quite how you phrased the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024391 35 1 question. 2 Q Well, let me see if I can -- I can try to -- 3 A I think I told you, sir, that I feel sure that 4 tnere were never any special housecleaning efforts -- 5 Q Okay. 6 A -- precautions taken Decause I was coining to 7 visit tne plant. 8 Q Okay. How much advance notice would people 9 have of your visits? 10 A Normally, from one to maybe three weeks. 11 Q Certainly, from your standpoint as an 12 industrial hygienist, it would not be desirable to have 13 special precautions taken in preparation for your visit, 14 Decause you would want to see the tilings tne way they 15 really were. Correct? 16 A Not only that, I think the plant management 17 wanted me to see the things tne way they were. 18 Q Okay. Now, when you went to individual plants, 19 would you look at each department or each manufacturing 20 operation within that plant? 21 A Normally, yes, sir. 22 Q So if a plant made, say, a half a dozen 23 chemicals, you would look at each of the half a dozen 24 chemical operations individually? 25 A Yes, sir. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024392 36 1 Q Was it your custom to prepare reports of what 2 you found? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q And would those reports describe the 5 precautions tnat were being taken in each of those 6 areas? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q Descrioe any problems that you saw as potential 9 problems? 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q Recommend a way to correct those problems? 12 A If there were proolems, I would recommend 13 corrections; yes, sir. 14 Q Did you ever find situations where you thought 15 too many precautions were taken and recommend doing away 16 wizh some precautions? 17 A No, sir, 18 Q Typically, fromthe industrial hygienist's 19 point of view, it's betterto be overly safe than 20 underly safe. Correct? 21 A I think it's -- from an industrial hygienist's 22 standpoint, one wants to certainly control exposures to 23 tne degree necessary -- to the degree necessary to 24 prevent ill effects. 25 At the same time, I don't think it's the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024393 37 1 responsibility of the industrial hygienist to suggest 2 that -- a plant doing something more than was necessary 3 to provide adequate protection. 4 If I may digress just a moment -- 5 Q Surely. Feel free to digress. 6 A I recall being on an annual inspection trip. 7 The company nad a program of annual housekeeping 8 inspection of all the plants by people in the 9 middle-management group, perhaps. 10 I remember -- remember being in one plant where 11 we took off our shoes when we walked into the power 12 plant, because the operator was so proud of the ~ his 13 housekeeping that he didn't want us to mar the paint on 14 the floor. Now, I think it would oe the last thing in 15 the world that any reasonable person would suggest that 16 maybe this wasn't necessary, even though I'm sure it 17 wasn't. 18 Q Okay. 19 A But he was a worker who was proud of his 20 workplace and took special care to keep it as clean as a 21 food-handling establishment. 22 Q Okay. And you didn't reprimand the worker for 23 that type of care? 24 A Not for that. 25 Q The sort of safety maxims that I think of are NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024394 38 1 tnings like, you know, "An ounce of prevention is worth 2 a pound of cure," and, "Better safe than sorry." Are 3 those tne sorts of things that industrial hygienists 4 think about? That if there's a question about whether 5 to exercise a safety precaution or not, you exercise it? 6 A I think that's only reasonable; yes, sir. 7 Q Now, you've mentioned these -- the 8 housekeeping. You described this fellow who kept his 9 floor so clean that he really didn't want your shoes to 10 scuff it up. 11 When you talk about housekeeping in the 12 chemical Dusiness, you are talking about keeping things 13 in place and keeping them clean, and keeping spills off 14 the floors, and things 14-ke that. Is that correct? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q And -- and those sorts ofprecautions and that 17 type of thing, housekeeping, is something you would 18 expect from every -- maybe not to the degree you 19 described from this one fellow, but something you would 20 expect in every plant that you went to. Correct? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q And while it may bemore of a safetyengineer's 23 job than an industrial hygienist's job, you don't want 24 liquid spilled on the floor that you can come by and 25 slip in and fall down on; you don't want parts tnat are NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024395 39 1 covered with liquid so they're slippery, and those sorts 2 of things. Is that a fair statement, even from an 3 industrial hygienist's standpoint? 4 A I would think so; yes, sir. 5 Q And so housekeeping was important for 6 everybody. Is that correct? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q And that, I suppose, may mean from time to time 9 polishing the floor, but not -- that's not the sort of 10 housekeeping you're normally talking about when you talk 11 about housekeeping in a chemical plant, is it? 12 A No, sir. - 13 Q You're talking about keepingthings picked up 14 and put away and in place. 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q In the various plants that youvisitea, were 17 there different precautions taken in different areas of 18 the plants in some cases, depending on what they 19 produced; wnat chemicals they made? 20 A I'm sure there were, as long as the results 21 were effective in preventing illness or injury. 22 Q Well, it was -- if I understand what you're 23 saying, whatever precautions were necessary in any 24 particular area of the plant to prevent illness or 25 injury is wnat you would want as an industrial NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024396 40 1 hygienist. Correct? 2 A I don't understand that. 3 Q You would want to make sure tnat every worker 4 in any particular plant working with any particular 5 chemical has whatever precautions are necessary to 6 prevent illness or injury. 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q And I guess my question is: Depending on the 9 chemicals that they worked with, would those precautions 10 differ from one plant to another or even within a plant, 11 one section of a plant to another, depending on tne 12 chemicals they were working with? 13 A I believe they could differ; yes, sir. 14 Q And you certainly were not in the business 15 of -- of recommending the same level of precautions for 16 every worker in every plant, regardless of what they 17 worked on, were you? 18 A Was I responsible? 19 Q Well, did you do that? 20 A My purpose was to ensure to the best -- nest of 21 my -- my ability that the work practices were sucn as to 22 avoid problems with health. 23 Q Let -- let me see if I can -- X can ask the 24 question in a way that'll make clear wnat I'm asking 25 you. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024397 41 1 Let me just assume that there's a particular 2 plant that makes a particular chemical where it's 3 appropriate for that process that the workmen have 4 special protective clothing, and that's what you as the 5 industrial hygienist tnink is -- is appropriate for that 6 worker working with those chemicals. And then there's 7 another section of the plant where you as the industrial 3 hygienist don't tnink that a worker working with these 9 other chemicals needs special protective clothes. 10 Do you follow what I'm saying there? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q You wouldn't automatically recommend that every 13 worker have special protective clothing just because 14 some workers need it, would you? 15 A Tnat's rignt, sir. 16 Q And you would look at each particular worker 17 and what chemicals he was producing to determine what 18 was needed in that area. Correct? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q Okay. 21 Were there certain areas of plants that were 22 identified as toxic areas, where people were working 23 with dangerous cnemicals? 24 A Excuse me. Yes, sir. 25 Q Was that something that every department in NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024398 42 1 every plant was identified as a toxic area, or just sorae X departments in certain plants? 3 A My recollection is that tne use of the word 4 "toxic" varied from plant to plant and did not 5 necessarily reflect the general industrial usage of the 6 word "toxic," and the plant mignt designate a department 7 toxic which I would not designate as being toxic. 8 The question of toxic, sir, is, as I'm sure you 3 must know, is a -- is a relative degree. And for 10 whatever reason, either because of inexperience with the 11 normal parameters of calling material "toxic," one plant 12 or one department would be designated as having toxic 13 materials or being a toxic department and another not. 14 Q Were you ever involved in identifying any 15 departments as toxic? 16 A I can't recall oeing involved in tne 17 designation of a department as being toxic. 18 Q Did you see any benefit to having a department IS designated as toxic? 20 A I was concerned with operations, particularly 21 wnere the operation was new to a plant, where tne hazard 22 was such that the operation for that particular chemical 23 that was being manufactured -- I don't know that I would 24 say it should be designated as a toxic department, 25 because of the differentiation or the definition of tne NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024399 43 1 word "toxic"; but the use of the raw material in the 2 product itself was such that it required extreme caution 3 in handling the materials. 4 Q Was it your view that by designating a 5 department as toxic, that communicated to the workmen 6 that that was a department where you really needed to be 7 careful with what you were working witn? 8 A I believe so; yes, sir. 9 Q And if it involved a chemical that that was 10 something workmen did need to be careful witn, then that 11 was a beneficial development? 12 A Not necessarily, sir. I think there's a danger 13 of overuse of, say, the word "toxic" and -- and to use 14 your definition of it, toxic department or nontoxic 15 department. And the danger is that if the department 16 that really doesn't deserve that categorization makes it 17 difficult to ensure that in the department that should 18 have that designation follow the proper precautions, 19 particularly if the history is tnat there haven't been 20 any toxicity effects manifested. 21 Q Well, what I hear you saying is you don't want 22 to overuse the term. 23 A That's right, sir. 24 Q But properly used, it can be beneficial in 25 conveying to workmen the need to exercise special NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024400 44 1 precautions. 2 A Yes, sir. 3 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: David, why don't we 4 give Mr. Wheeler a break at some point in 5 here? 6 MR. LACEY: Yeah. Let me -- I've 7 just got a couple more questions, and 8 we'll try to do just that. 9 BY MR. LACEY: , 10 Q "Toxic" is a word that -- that we see used in 11 the context of people who deal with occupational 12 medicine and industrial hygiene and the like. What are 13 some synonyms or laymen's words for the word "toxic"? 14 A Rather than synonyms, I -- I'm -- 15 Q Or other words. 16 A -- I'd rather -- I'd rather describe a little 17 bit the procedures tnat we in industry use to -- to 18 define "toxic" or -- yeah, "toxic." Let's stick witn 19 tnat word. 20 Q Well, let me -- let me ask you: What I'm 21 interested in doing is finding out, if you can tell me, 22 what are other words that are used in the same sense 23 "toxic" is used. I'll be happy to get you to define 24 that -- your definition of that for me later, but I'm 25 trying to find out what, if you know, are otner words NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024401 45 1 that are used as synonyms for "toxic." 2 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Hr. Wheelerr I 3 think you started to answer that question. 4 Feel free to -- 5 MR. LACEY: -- go on ahead and answer 6 it however you feel it was appropriate. 7 HR. LACEY: No, I'm going to object 8 to any answer that says, "I'm not going to 9 tell you what the synonyms are. I'm going 10 to define it for you instead." 11 I didn't ask for a definition. The 12 answer would be nonresponsive. 13 A I -- I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be 14 nonresponsive. I guess a general word, sir, would be 15 "harmf ul." 16 BY MR. LACEY: 17 Q Okay. 18 MR. LACEY: Why don't we just take a 19 oreak right there. 20 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN: Okay. We're 21 off the record. 22 23 (Recess) 24 25 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN: Okay. We've NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024402 46 1 been off the record for a short break. 2 We're now back on the record. The time is 3 11:10 a.m. 4 BY MR. LACEY: 5 Q Before our break, you indicated that a common 6 term that we might use for "toxic'' would be "harmful" as 7 a word that we would understand, ordinary people? 8 Correct? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q Okay. You indicated that you have some 11 definitions or -- or information you would supply in 12 terms of understanding "toxic." Can you tell me what 13 your standards or definitions would be for "toxic"? 14 A I rememDer some of the numbers, sir. I don't 13 know that I remember all of them. 16 But there was a requirement by one of the 17 Government agencies -- and I'm not sure whether it 18 originated with the Bureau of Explosives or what 19 Government agency -- but they established numbers to 20 interpret data from acute animal toxicity studies as to 21 the degree of potential human hazard. 22 For example, if a compound killed 50 percent of 23 a dozen rats at a given number, the material had to oe 24 classified as a poison. And the label requirement then 25 was tne inclusion a skull and crossbones. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024403 47 1 Similarly, if tne lethal dose when the sample 2 was applied to the skin of shaved rabbits and held in 3 intimate contact with the skin by a rubber sleeve or a 4 rubber dam, I believe it was called -- I think the 5 number there was that if, because of absorption through 6 the skin, the lethal dose was less than 200 milligrams 7 per kilogram -- I -- I have to say I'm not positive 8 that that's the number, but that's my recollection -- 9 regardless of oral toxicity, the material had to be 10 called "poison" and bear the skull and crossbones. 11 Three other studies, two of them using rabbits, 12 was to drop the undiluted material in the eyes of 13 rabbits and see tne degree of irritation and/or loss of 14 sight if that -- if the material was that corrosive. 15 And a -- another test with rabbits was to try to get a 16 numerical number as to the degree of primary irritation. 17 And then for liquids or gases, rats were 18 exposed to a saturated vapor in a suitable chamber to 19 see if they survived a saturated atmosphere of the 20 material. 21 And there were -- there was nomenclature 22 related to these numbers or to tnese data that were 23 obtained in those acute studies. 24 I've mentioned the word "poison." There was 25 another classification. I'm sorry, sir; I don't NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024404 48 1 remember the ranges, but materials would be classified 2 as moderately toxic, slightly toxic -- I don't recall 3 that tne word "innocuous" was used for those that failed 4 to kill any animals at a tremendous dosage, but I -- 5 I -- I -- I recall there was a poison classif- -- 6 classification, a moderately toxic classification, a 7 slightly toxic classification. 8 And these were -- these studies then led to -- 9 they were -- well, they obviously were adopted for legal 10 reasons. 11 But, in addition, the Manufacturing Chemists 12 Association, which is now the Chemical Manufacturers 13 Association -- used to be MCA; now it's CMA -- 14 Q Same people? 15 A Same people. I think it has maybe 180 memoers 16 from the chemical manufacturing industry. 17 Q These are companies that manufacture chemicals? 18 A Yes. I don't know tnat there was any exclusion 19 that said "manufacturers," out the name was 20 Manufacturers." Pnarmaceutical people have their 21 association. 22 But the MCA established a Labeling Committee. 23 I don't know on what date, but I certainly was aware of 24 their existence and their manual in the early 50's. And 25 the MCA group, I think, extended some of the tnoughts NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024405 45 1 about appropriate labeling, using most importantly the 2 results of the data that I just mentioned for 3 classification and -- and warning label wording. 4 Q Let me try to understand some of the things 5 you've said. 6 You mentioned a couple of times, as you were 7 describing this determination of toxicity, the word 8 "acute." What do you mean when you talk about "acute"? 9 A An acute -- excuse me -- an acute study is a 10 one-term -- a one-time application or exposure of the 11 animals to a particular material, as compared to chronic 12 studies, which can extend to any -- anywhere from a 13 90-day feeding study to a two-year feeding study and 14 which would be included in chronic. I think the 90-day 15 studies were called subacute studies. 16 Q These labeling terminologies that you 17 describe -- so much per so many milligrams, or whatever 18 per kilogram, et cetera -- those were all based on acute 19 studies. Correct? 20 A When we referred to acute toxicity data, yes, 21 sir. 22 Q Okay. And -- and the -- the various things 23 that you nave j ust told me about, the classifications. 24 were cased on acute da ta. Correct? 25 A Yes, sir. The -- our -- our definition of a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024406 50 1 toxic material would be related to those data; 2 whereas -- people not necessarily familiar witn trying 3 to make a differentiation as to degrees of toxicity 4 would call something "toxic"; whereas, by any definition 5 that we were familiar with, it would not be classified 6 as toxic. 7 Q And what I'm getting at is that the Chemical 8 Manufacturers Association definition of "toxic" was 9 based on acute data, not on chronic data. Correct? 10 A No, sir. If -- 11 Q How is that incorrect? 12 -A It's correct in that if there were only acute 13 data available, and which was the norm for snipping and 14 handling, and where other type of exposure would not be 15 expected, then the data would apply. 16 Q Acute data would apply? 17 A The acute data would apply. If there were -- 18 if -- in all cases, obviously, if there were human 19 experience reported that would indicate that the acute 20 data sriould be expanded in animals to find a better 21 correlation between the effect on animals and -- and 22 translation to humans, then that would -- would take 23 precedence. 24 Q Let me try to understand how this works. Let's 25 say you have a cnemical that, using an acute standard, NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024407 51 1 would be considered nontoxic, single application, no 2 observed effect; but that in a chronic study or in a 3 chronic application may cause significant effects. 4 How did the Cheiaical Manufacturers Association 5 grade the toxicity of that cheiaical? Was it graded in 6 accordance with the acute studies? Was it graded in 7 accordance witn the chronic studies? And if so, what 8 criteria were used to try to determine the toxicity 9 rating for a chronic proolem? 10 A The chronic effect was more important than the 11 acute data. At tne same time, it was not the practice 12 to label the material, other than -- in terms of a 13 definition, other than what the acute data indicated, 14 with tne additional warning or -- or cautionary 15 statement that prolonged and repeated exposure should be 16 avoided. 17 Q But in terms of identifying the toxicity of the 18 material, saying, "This is highly toxic" or "moderately 19 toxic" or "slightly toxic" or "innocuous," the Chemical 20 Manufacturers Association would look to tne acute data? 21 A For labeling purposes, yes, sir. 22 Q Okay. 23 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Plus, I believe -- 24 A Plus, as I gust indicated, the -- the warning 25 that there were other considerations that were important NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024408 52 1 and the proper precautions should be taken. 2 BY MR. LACEY: 3 Q Well, I'm not trying to find out about the 4 warnings at tnis point. We'll talk about warnings 5 later. But I'm just talking about whether you would 6 call the cnemical toxic, moderately toxic, slightly 7 toxic, or innocuous. That definition, that word you 8 would select, would be based on acute data. 9 MR. SH0E30THAH: Mr. Wheeler also 10 told you about the input of human 11 experience into that process, as well. 12 BY MR. LACEY: 13 Q I just want to make sure I'm clear, though, 14 that the actual selection of the level of toxicity would 15 be based on acute data; how many milligrams or whatever 16 it is per kilogram of animal weight results in killing 17 the animals, or whatever you're looking for in the 18 animals. Is that correct? 19 A It's correct, but with the -- with the addition 20 of the fact tnat this was acute data and applied to an 21 acute exposure. 22 Q And that's true for the toxicity ratings tnat 23 we find in this Chemical Manufacturers Association 24 rating of chemicals. Correct? 25 A To my knowledge, that was the case for labeling NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024409 53 1 purposes. 2 Q Okay. Now, did the Chemical Manufacturers 3 Association actually come up with proposed language for 4 different types of labels for different types of 5 materials? 6 A They had examples for many common basic 7 chemicals, yes. 8 Q And did they have recommended types of warnings 9 for chemicals in a particular acute-toxicity 10 classification? 11 A I believe so; yes, sir. 12 Q Are you aware of any groups that ever voiced 13 any objection to the appropriateness of the Cneraical 14 Manufacturers Association laoeling? 15 A Mo, sir. 16 Q You're not aware of any group that ever 17 indicated any dissatisfaction with those labeling IS criteria? 19 A I don't recall any, sir. 20 Q - Okay. Was that something that would have been 21 significant to you in your job at Monsanto; that you 22 would have been looking for people who were critical of 23 that type of labeling? 24 MR. SHOEBOTHAti: Well, which people, 25 and for wnat reason? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024410 54 1 MR. LACEYi Anybody who ODjected to 2 the labeling proposed by the Chemical 3 Manufacturers Association. 4 BY MR. LACEY: 5 Q In other words, was it important to you -- and 6 I don't know whether it was or wasn't -- but was it 7 important to you, in terms of your job responsibilities 8 at Monsanto, to keep up with any criticisms of the 9 Chemical Manufacturing Association's labeling proposals? 10 A I feel quite sure that our labeling group would 11 have called it to my attention, had there been any. 12 Q Okay. And would that have been of interest to 13 you, though, in your particular job, or would it just 14 have been passing information, of no importance to you? 15 A It would have been of interest to me. 16 Q Okay. 17 Now, there certainly are chemicals that nave 13 very little acute effect but that can have significant 19 chronic effects, are there not? 20 A Was your question, if there are very few? 21 Q No. There are chemicals which can have very 22 few, if any, acute effects, but can -- which can have 23 very significant chronic effects. 24 A I'm trying to think of examples, sir. 25 One that comes to mind is mercury. Mercury NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024411 55 1 is -- is very toxic. I don't -- I'm not sure if it's 2 classified as a poison, but it is toxic from the 3 standpoint of inhalation. I don't know that it is from 4 skin absorption. 5 On the other hand, if you break a thermometer 6 in your mouth and swallow that mercury, it's going to go 7 through your system pretty much unchanged. 8 Q So we have there an example of a chemical that 9 the acute effects are not nearly as significant as the 10 long-term chronic effects. Correct? 11 A 1 think the acute effect from ingestion of the 12 mercury is insignificant. 13 Q Uh-nun. Okay. Arid, certainly, mercury is not 14 the only chemical for which that's true, is it? 15 A No, sir. Perhaps you've seen in the paper 16 recently some references to selenium. Selenium occurs 17 naturally in the environment and is essential to proper 18 nutrition; and yet selenium, I -- I would think, would 19 be classified as quite toxic. I don't know if I would 20 use tne word "highly toxic," but it is certainly not an 21 innocuous chemical. 22 Q In a chronic long-term use? 23 A That's right, sir; at levels that the body -- 24 that the body cannot digest or metuoolize and eliminate. 25 Q Tne -- we could probably create a ratner ___________________________________________________________________________________i NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024412 56 1 lengthy list of chemicals like that and substances like 2 that if we sat down to -- to go through it, couldn't we; 3 that is, tnat have rather limited acute effects, but 4 significant: chronic effects? 5 A I believe 11 years ago I could probably tnink 6 of a number of examples. 7 Q Okay. 6 A Today I can't. 9 Q That's fine, and I just wanted to establish 10 that -- that point with you. 11 Now, you also mentioned, as you discussed this 12 business of -- of looking at chemicals, different types 13 of studies. You can study the -- what Happens -- wnat 14 the toxicity is if you eat it? Correct? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q You can study what the toxicity is if it gets 17 on your skin and stays there? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q You can study what the toxicity is if it's in 20 the air you're breathing? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q Are there other routes of exposure thatare 23 significant besides ingestion, innalation, and skin 24 contact? 25 A Other than eye irritation, I can't think of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024413 57 1 any. 2 Q That's a form of skin contact, though, I guess. 3 A Well, it might be considered that. To me, it 4 would not be. 5 Q Okay. So that's a fourth area would be eye -- 6 A Yes -- 7 Q -- whether it gets in your eyes? 8 A Yes, I -- because I think some of tne deadly 9 nerve gases were -- a drop in the eye could perhaps be 10 fatal. 11 Q Now, from the industrial hygienist's 12 standpoint, in looking at exposure and looking at the 13 toxicity of a chemical, one would be concerned about any 14 of those routes of exposure if tney could cause problem. 15 Correct? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q And some chemicals may cause relatively little 18 problem tnrough one route of exposure, but more tnrougn 19 another. Is tnat correct? Or is it generally if a 20 chemical is a problem tnrough one route of exposure, 21 it's a problem each of tne routes of exposure? 22 A I believe it depends on the chemical. Analine, 23 for example, is seriously toxic if it's absorbed through 24 the skin. I tnink the hazard from innalation is -- may 25 be a magnitude of no difference in terms of hazard. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024414 58 1 Q And in each situation the real question is now 2 much of the chemical actually gets into the body through 3 tnat route of exposure, isn't it? 4 A Through some route of exposure; yes, sir. 5 Q My point is: For example, if you ingest it, 6 the real question is not your ingestion, but how wucn of 7 it -- and I don't know if "digested" is the right word, 8 but how much of it gets from going through your 9 digestive tract actually into your body. Correct? 10 A I believe the body burden can differ as to the 11 metabolic pathway, for want of another word; what 12 happens to it in the system. It may differ where the 13 material gets into the bloodstream through the lungs or 14 from the digestive tract or through the -- the skin. 15 Q The skin. But wnen we analyze what the 16 chemical does to the body, if it has a systemic effect, 17 the question of what nappens on a particular route of 18 exposure or what the danger of that route of exposure is 19 really determined by now effective is that route of 20 exposure in getting the chemical into tne oody. 21 Correct? 22 Do you understand what I'm asking? 23 A No, sir, not completely. 24 Q Okay. Let me try to make it clear. 25 Let me -- let me try to see if I can set up a IMELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024415 59 1 hypothetical, and -- and I don't know if this applies to 2 any particular chemical, hut let's say that if you've 3 got -- I'm not sure I can set tne right criteria. 4 If a chemical is of significance from a health 5 standpoint, if you have 500 parts per billion in the 6 blood, let's say, the question that may be very 7 important from the industrial hygienist's standpoint 6 about now much you worry about ingestion versus now much 9 you worry about inhalation versus how much you worry 10 about skin absorption is: How much contact with the 11 skin will produce 500 parts per billion in the blood, 12 how much in the air will result in getting 500 parts per 13 billion in the blood, or now much can you eat to get 500 14 parts per billion in the blood. 15 Do you follow what I'm saying now? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q And the point is: If we're looking at systemic 18 effects of a chemical, one of the things that's 19 important is how mucn of that cnemical gets into the 20 body system, like tne blood, througn either eating it or 21 having it on the skin or breathing it in,the air. 22 Correct? 23 A I'm not sure about that, sir. I -- I mentioned 24 the analine as an example; and I'm not enough of a 25 toxicologist to say, as a general proposition, that tne NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024416 60 1 amount in the blood is a -- a good example of wnat 2 you're -- what you're asking me. 3 Q I'm not trying to establish the amount of any 4 particular chemical in the blood. What I'm trying to 5 understand is tnat you may get more into your body 6 through one route of exposure than the other. 7 For example, in the analine case, it's more 8 easily absorbed through the skin by direct skin contact, 9 as I understand it, than it is absorbed by the lungs 10 because it's in the air. 11 A I believe that's correct. 12 Q Okay. That's what I'm trying to establish. In 13 different chemicals, one or another of those routes of 14 exposure -- eating it, breathing it, skin contact -- may 15 result in a higher concentration of the chemical in tne 16 body, and therefore more potential for harm. Correct? 17 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Well, Mr. Wheeler 18 has just told you he can't answer the part 19 about more potential for harm, if -- if 20 that's included within your question. 21 He's told you tnat he's not enough of a 22 toxicologist to address that portion of 23 the question. 24 BY MR. LACEY: 25 Q Well, if -- can you answer the question? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024417 61 1 A I can't answer it. I -- 2 Q Okay. That's fine. Who at Monsanto -- it 3 seems to me that's a key question to an industrial 4 hygienist who needs to be concerned about how much may 5 be ingested versus how much may be breathed versus now 6 much may come into contact with the skin. Who at 7 Monsanto was responsible for those sorts of functions 8 and making those sorts of decisions? 9 A Dr. Kelly. 10 Q I see. Anybody else? 11 A No, sir. 12 Q Now, did you have data on the toxicology of all 13 the chemicals that were produced by Monsanto, giving the 14 relative toxicology for each route of exposure: How 15 much of a problem it is by skin, how much of a problem 16 it is by ingestion, how much of a problem it is by 17 inhalation? 18 A On all Monsanto products? 19 Q Uh-huh. . 20 A I don't believe so. 21 Q Well, how, when you went into a department to 22 analyze the problems that might occur to workers then, 23 could you analyze what safety precautions were neeaed 24 for each of those routes of exposure for the chemical in 25 that department? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024418 62 1 A The chemical -- the human experience of 2 manufacturing the material and handling the raw 3 materials, which in any case would take precedence over 4 the animal data. 5 Q Okay. So, in part, if you hadn't -- if you 6 weren't having a proolem with it, you would assume tnat 7 there wouldn't be any problems in the future. Correct? 8 A We assumed that getting the toxicity data would 9 not be necessary to continue safe handling -- 10 Q Now, what -- 11 A -- in manufacture. 12 Q What if you had a cnemical that didn't have a 13 very significant acute toxic problem, but had a 14 significant chronic proolem? Then that analysis of 15 just -- of saying, "'Well, nobody's having a problem, so 16 there must not be any," could be an improper analysis, 17 couldn't it? 18 A No, sir. 19 Q It wouldn't be? 20 A No, sir; because in all of our planes, we nad 21 medical supervision, including periodic physical 22 examinations, that would have disclosed if there were a 23 cnronic effect that wasn't readily recognized. 24 Q Well, if the chronic effect took ten years to 25 show up, was somebody monitoring tne workers who had NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024419 63 1 been there for ten years in that same section of the 2 plant and had ten years of exposure, to be aole to 3 determine what the problem was? 4 A To my knowledge, no specific group was singled 5 out, but were included in tne physical examinations tnat 6 were done on ail the employees. 7 Q There's a specific discipline that deals with S looking at tne human exposure experience and any 9 problems that arise from it, is there not? 10 A I beg your pardon? 11 Q There's a specific discipline that deals with 12 looking at exposure of human populations to chemicals 13 and determining what the consequences of that are. 14 Isn't that correct? 15 A If you are referring to epidemiological 16 studies, yes. 17 Q Okay. Tnat -- well, that -- that's the 18 discipline that deals with that science, is it not? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q Was Monsanto conducting any epidemiological 21 studies of its workers when you arrived in 1947? 22 A No, sir. 23 Q Did Monsanto conduct anyepidemiological 24 studies of its workers at any time while you were 25 employed by Monsanto? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024420 64 1 A I don't recall tnat we did, for the reason that 2 an epidemiological study, to be statistically 3 significant, has to nave a larger number of people 4 exposed than we would have had in our instances. 5 Q Did you have an epidemiologist even on the 6 staff in the Medical Department? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q So when you talk about people monitoring the 9 health of Monsanto employees over-time to look for 10 chronic effects, you weren't monitoring it in accordance 11 with the discipline of epidemiology, nor did you have 12 anybody who was an epidemiologist doing that for you. 13 Correct? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q Okay. You were relying on just these plant 16 doctors to report something to you if they saw anything. 17 Correct ? 18 A As a result of specific visits to them and 19 asking those -- asking specific questions, yes, sir, on 20 the part of either Dr. Kelly or when I went to plants, I 21 usually met with the physician; and this would be kind 22 of an interim visit, if you will. 23 Q And if you don't know what you're looking for, 24 it may be hard to see the link between the exposure and 25 any problem. Correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024421 65 1 A I believe our physical examinations were 2 complete enough to indicate if tnere were any 3 abnormal -- abnormalities or organ damage, any kind of 4 effect -- 5 Q -Well -- 6 A if that were -- if that were occurring. 7 Q lio. I`m sorry. That wasn't my question. 8 I said; The problem is, it's often difficult, without 9 looking at it in great detail, to observe the 10 relationship between any health problem and a particular 11 chemical exposure. 12 HR. SH0E30THAM: I'm going to ooject 13 to the question to the extent it assumes 14 that these tnings weren't looked at in 15 great detail. 16 Hr. Wheeler's told you that the plant 17 doctors examined these people and that he 18 feels the physical diagnoses were -- were 19 adequate, and I'm not sure what you mean 20 Dy that. 21 MR. LACEY: Well, let me -- let me 22 try to go at it a different way. 23 BY MR. LACEY: 24 Q If a plant doctor observed in ais pnysical 25 examinations that three people at the plant this year NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024422 66 1 had a particular specific health problem, it would take 2 a significant amount of careful study of what those 3 people had been doing, how those health problems might 4 be related to the population generally, and similar 5 matters that epidemiologists look at, in order to 6 determine whether any health problems mignt be related 7 to a particular chemical they nad been exposed to. 8 Isn't that correct? 9 A I think that's a hypothetical question, sir, 10 because I don't recall of any instance where such an 11 event occurred. 12 Q I understand. Ily real question is: That's not 13 something that the ordinary physician would necessarily 14 be experienced enough oy training -- I mean formal 15 training -- or by his own clinical experience to pick up 16 and observe. Isn't that correct? 17 A I don't think I agree with that, sir. 18 Q Okay. So, in your opinion, tnere was really no 19 need for any epidemiologist at Monsanto toreview things 20 like that. Correct? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q And there was no need for any epidemiological 23 studies. Correct? 24 A That's right, sir. 25 Q You had sufficient information, based on plant NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024423 67 1 doctor examinations of your workmen, to rule out any 2 possibility of cnronic effects from the chemicals that 3 Monsanto people work with. Correct? 4 A I feel that there were no uncovered effects 5 that -- that occurred. 6 Q And there was no need for epidemiologists to 7 search for any more. Correct? 8 A I think, sir -- I -- I'm not an 9 epidemiologist -- 10 Q I understand. 11 A -- but it is my understanding that an 12 epidemiological study, to be statistically significant, 13 involves large numbers of people wno are being 14 investigated, as well as a -- an equally large, if not 15 larger, number of people not possibly exposed. 16 And I don't think in any of our cases a true 17 and -- a true -- an epidemiological study in that -- in 18 the typical sense would have been helpful. 19 Q Okay. Did you ever recommend to anybody in tne 20 Medical Department in your employment at Monsanto cne 21 hiring of an epidemiologist -- 22 A No, sir. 23 Q -- or the retention of an outside 24 epidemiologist to consult with Monsanto on a part-time 25 oasis? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024424 68 1 A It's only my recollection that at about the 2 time toward the end of my career with Monsanto, there 3 were discussions about eraploying outside epidemiologists 4 to investigate certain plants and I believe to examine 5 tnat particular operation that might employ only 20 6 people; but to compare the health records of the total 7 population of the plant over a number of years, and to 8 compare with a suitable number of controls. 9 Q Do you recall what plants those were? 10 A My recollection is that the Anniston -- 11 Anniston; I'm sorry -- the Nitro, West Virginia, was one 12 that was under consideration. 13 Q Do you recall any other plants? 14 A No, sir. 15 Q Do you recall what chemicals were involved tnat 16 gave rise to the selection of a particular plant? 17 A It did not concern polychlorinated biphenyls. 18 Q Do you recall what chemical it was that gave 19 rise to the concern? 20 A I believe it may have been related to the 21 2,4,5-T and dioxin material that had been manufactured 22 at that plant -- not the dioxin manufactured there, but 23 the 2,4,5-T that was manufactured there. 24 Q Let me go back to the Medical Department for a 25 moment. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024425 69 1 You come on board in 1947 as the second 2 full-time professional; and your primary function 3 involves industrial hygiene and, in particular, review 4 of Monsanto plants on a regular basis. 5 What other professionals joined the Medical 6 Department? 7 A Mr. Jack Garrett joined me in, I believe, 1951; 8 maybe '40- -- 1952. 9 Q And what was Mr. Garrett's job? 10 A By the early 50's, the question of control of 11 air and water pollution had become of interest; and we 12 were given some responsibility for including in our 13 industrial hygiene visits to the plants a review of 14 their potential problems with air and water pollution. 15 And Jack's -- Garrett -- Jack Garrett's job, in 16 addition to helping me witn the industrial nygiene 17 program, was to work more -- work specifically witn the 18 plants on water pollution; whereas, I pretty much 19 handled the air pollution part of the responsibility. 20 And, as a matter of fact, I think it was 1951 I 21 was assigned to the Manufacturing Chemists Association 22 Air Quality Committee and was on that committee for 25 23 years. 24 I was on the Water Committee for just a few 25 months until Jack joined U3, ana -- and he represented ___________________________________________________________________________________ NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024426 70 1 Monsanto on that committee. 2 Q When you say you were "assigned," who assigned 3 you? 4 A I -- I believe it was the Vice-President for 5 Manufacturing that we reported to at that time. 6 Q Okay. So somebody at Monsanto assigned you to 7 the task of being on the Chemical Manufacturers 8 Association Committee on Air. 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q And did that person also assign Mr. Garrett to 11 be on the Committee on Water? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q That was a part of your job duties for 14 Monsanto ? 15 A Yes, sir. 15 Q And you were compensated for it in the ordinary 17 course of your business? 18 A It was just part of my job, sir, at my regular 19 compensation. 20 Q All right. 21 Now, was Mr. Garrett also an industrial 22 hygienist? 23 A He became one, sir. He was not -- he was a -- 24 he had, I believe, a Master's Degree in Chemistry from 25 the University of Kentucky or Tennessee. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024427 71 1 Q Did he become an industrial hygienist by 2 on-the--job training? 3 A Yes, sir; after being employed in the Research 4 Department at our Texas City plant and getting very 5 deeply involved in what was going to be required to 6 handle aqueous waste from some new operations that were 7 going --- that were being constructed at that point. 8 Jack, I think, is brilliant. He nas a 9 photographic memory. He became certified in industrial 10 hygiene by taking the exams and scoring well. He was 11 well-respected. 12 Q Do you know where Mr. Garrett is now? 13 A He's in St. Louis. I believe he retired two 14 years ago. 15 Q As far as you know, he's still alive and well? 16 A The last I heard, yes, sir. 17 Q How do you spell Mr. Garrett's name? 18 A G-a-double-r-e-double-t. 19 Q And it's Jack? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q J. Garrett? Do you know what his middle 22 initial was, perchance? 23 A I wane to say "T," but I'm not positive. 24 I don't know why you're smiling. 25 Q Well, I'm smiling at Mr. ShoeDotham, because NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024428 72 1 I've tried to find Mr. Garrett before; and apparently I 2 didn't spell his name correctly, and he seemed to be 3 unknown. 4 MR. LACEY* And I renew my request to 5 see if we can't locate Mr. Garrett witn 6 this correct spelling -- hopefully 7 correct -- first name and middle initial. 8 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: I'd be pleased to 9 see what I can do for you in that regard. 10 MR. LACEY: Especially a fellow with 11 a pnotographic memory. I think that's 12 always nelpful. 13 BY MR. LACEY: 14 Q Mow, did you continue to go visit Monsanto 15 facilities after Mr. Garrett came on board? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q Did you continue to visit Monsanto facilities 13 up until your retirement as part of your role as an 19 industrial hygienist? 20 A On a mucn limited schedule after we added other 21 industrial hygienists, as my involvement in otner 22 activities of the department developed. 23 Q Well, let's go on with departmental growth. 24 We -- we have first, on a full-time professional basis. 25 Dr. Kelly. Then you come on board in 1947. Mr. Garrett NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024429 73 1 arrives in the very early 50*s. 2 WIio is the next professional employee wno joins 3 the Medical Department -- 4 A I believe -- 5 Q -- on a full-time basis? 6 A I believe Dr. William Hunt, who was a 7 toxicologist. a Q Do you recall approximately when he joined the 9 department? 10 A I believe it was 1960 or 1961. 11 Q So throughout the '50's we have a maximum of 12 tnree people who are professional employees full-time in 13 the Medical Department. Correct? 14 A Yes, sir. I -- I can't recall when Dr. Kelly 15 hired an Assistant Medical Director. 16 Q Who was the first Assistant Medical Director? 17 A Dr. William -- William; oh, my. Morris; 18 Dr. Morris -- Morrie Johnson, who had been our full-time 19 plant physician at Pensacola and then had moved to 20 Research Triangle Park in North Carolina as Medical 21 Director for the Chemstrand Corporation, which was 22 50 percent owned by Monsanto and 50 percent by American 23 Viscose and was in the business of making nylon and 24 acrylic fibers, and who had established their major 25 research facilities in North Carolina. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024430 74 1 Q Did Dr. Johnson have a specialty that he 2 pursued as the Assistant Medical Director? And I mean 3 by that like toxicology, or in occupational medicine, or 4 anything of that sort. 5 A At some point in his career, ne'd been 6 particularly interested in respiratory physiology; but 7 his service with us was as assistant to Dr. Kelly in the 8 whole general field of industrial health or occupational 9 health. 10 Q Did he have a fair amount of administrative 11 duties? 12 A In Dr. Kellycs absence, yes, sir. 13 Q And in Dr. Kelly's presence, what sort of 14 things did he handle? 15 A Again, I think he shared with Dr. Kelly some of 15 the correspondence. 17 He also shared physical examinations and -- for 18 pre-employments, periodic physicals, which Dr. Kelly 19 did, incidentally, through most of his history with 20 Monsanto; because Dr. Kelly loved the practice of 21 medicine and was an expert. 22 And -- the -- the question of the -- doing the 23 physical examinations, again, for the older employees, 24 where the exams were a little more complete, were 25 handled by Dr. Kelly and Dr, Johnson; whereas. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024431 75 1 Dr. Mezera, the one -- the gentleman who joined us in 2 '47/ did the morning exams, principally. o Q All right. So Dr. Kelly and Dr. Jonnson would 4 oe giving examinations to people there at the 5 headquarters building on through the '60's and *70's or 6 whatever? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q Who else joined the department after Dr. Hunt? 9 A I don't remember the time schedule, but I 10 believe the next person was another industrial 11 hygienist. If you'll give me a moment. I'll try to 12 think of his name. 13 Oh. Kyle Bohl, who was working on his Doctor 14 of Science Degree at Kettering Laboratories in 15 Cincinnati, and finally got his degree. 16 Q Okay. Kyle Bohl. Who -- who came next, as 17 best you can recall the sequence? 18 A Another industrial hygienist. It's horrible to 19 have old-timers' disease and not remember things. 20 Bruce Ely. 21 Q When did Mr. Bohl and Mr. Ely come? Were they 22 in the 1960's? 23 A I believe so. 24 Q And who -- wno comes along next? 25 A Dr. George Levinskas, a toxicologist. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024432 76 1 Q 'When does Dr. Levinskas come on, approximately? 2 Was he in the 1970's, or -- 3 A No. I -- I would -- I would say the late 4 *60's. And I'm trying to recall whether -- I can't 5 recall whether he came before -- before Bill Hunt died 6 of a heart attack on the way to the airport. I think 7 George was with us while Bill Hunt was still alive, but 8 I can't be sure of that. 9 Q But, in any event, there wasn't a great deal of 10 overlap between Dr. Hunt and Dr. Levinskas in the 11 toxicology area? 12 A Overlap, no, sir. 13 Q Okay. Who came next, as best you can recall. 14 in this professional group in the Medical Department? 15 A I believe it was Paul Wright, another 16 toxicologist. 17 Q Okay. And aoout when did he come? Early 13 70's. late '60's? 19 A I believe early '70's. 20 Q Okay. Who came next? 21 A Another industrial hygienist, and I'm -- I'm 22 sorry ? I don't know his name. 23 Q Who came next after that? And when we get up 24 to the point where you don't know, that's fine. You can 25 just tell me that they're after you left, if we're NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024433 77 1 getting close to that point. 2 A Well, I recall now that there was a third 3 toxicologist hired, Fred Johannsen. And I'm not sure 4 that he didn't join us before the fourth industrial 5 hygienist. 6 Q Okay. So the order of the fourth hygienist and 7 the third toxicologist is not sure. 8 Well, let's stop right here so the tape can be 9 changed, and tnen we'll get through the rest of these 10 people in the department. 11 A All right, sir. 12 13 (Recess) 14 15 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAii: Okay. We've 16 been off the record to make a tape change. 17 We're back on the record now. The time is 18 12: Oo p.iu. 19 BY MR. LACEY: 20 Q Before we changed tne tape, we were mentioning 21 Mr. Fred Johannsen, who was another toxicologist; and he 22 may have come immediately preceding the industrial 23 hygienist whose name you cannot remember. 24 Who would be next in the development of the 25 professional staff of the Medical Department? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024434 78 1 A I think there was another industrial hygienist 2 hired before I retired. 3 Also, by that time there were -- there was 4 another full-time -- at least another -- at least one 5 otner full-time physician. 6 Q Who was that? 7 A I believe it was Ernest Tillman, I think his 8 name was. , 9 Q Did your retirement precede or succeed tnat of 10 Dr. Kelly? 11 A Dr. Kelly retired, I believe, the 1st of 12 December, 1974, at age 65. And I retired in June 30th, 13 1976, at age 60. 14 Q Who replaced Dr. Kelly at the Medical 15 Department? 16 A Dr. George Roush. 17 Q And did ne come in some period of time before 18 Dr. Kelly's retirement, or did he just come in right at 19 tne time of tne retirement to replace him? 20 A I believe he was there for two years before 21 Dr. Kelly's retirement. 22 Q And did he have atitle or aposition? 23 A His -- nis title wasAssistant Director of tne 24 Department. 25 Q Did he have -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024435 79 1 A Oh, excuse me. I'm sorry. It may have been 2 Assistant Medical Director. I -- I -- I make that point 3 because at one point in time I had the title of 4 Assistant Director of the Department; but, obviously, I 5 couldn't become a Director. So it was Assistant 6 Director of the Department, not Assistant Medical 7 Director. 8 Q I see. 9 A And the physicians that were there would have 10 the Assistant Medical Director designation. 11 Q Did Dr. Roush -- is it Roush? Is the -- how do 12 you pronounce it? 13 A Roush. I thinx it's R-o-u-s-h. 14 Q Okay. Did Dr. Roush have any particular 15 specialty that he practiced in? 16 A Dr. Roush nad been at -- I believe at the 17 Kettering Laboratories, and worked on tetraetnyl lead 13 problems for the Ethyl Corporation; and then moved to, I 19 think, Baton Rouge full-time with Ethyl Corporation. 20 I believe ne also was doing some teaching maybe 21 at Baylor at the tirae he joined Monsanto. 22 Q At Baylor? You're talking about the Baylor 23 Medical School? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q In Houston? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024436 80 1 A Yes, sir. And his specialty, if anything, I 2 would say, was toxicology. 3 Q Okay. Does that, as best you can recall, get 4 us through the development of the professional staff at 5 the Medical Department up until the time you left in o 1976? 7 A Yes, sir. 3 Q Let me go oack and just get a little background 9 information on these people who joined the department. 10 You've told me about yourself. 11 What about Jack Garrett? Had he had any 12 previous medical service experience, or just the 13 scientific experience before he joined the Medical 14 Department? 15 A No medical experience. 16 Q No medical-department-type experience or 17 anything? 18 A No, sir. 19 Q And had nis laboratory experience been with 20 Monsanto before ne came to the Medical Department? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q Okay. So his -- basically, his employment 23 history was a lifelong Monsanto employee. 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q What about Dr. Hunt? What experience had he NELL MC CALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024437 81 1 Had before joining the Monsanto Medical Department? 2 A He had been a toxicologist with some 3 pharmaceutical company, I believe, in Hew Jersey; and I 4 don't recall the name of it. 5 Q That's all you know about that? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q 'What age roan was Dr. Hunt at his untimely 8 death? 9 A I would think in his early '60's, perhaps. 10 Q Okay. , 11 A He was a Ph.D. in some of -- one of tne 12 biological sciences. I don't know if it was 13 biochemistry or what it was. 14 Q What had Dr. Morris Johnson done before he 15 became Assistant Medical Director? 16 A I believe I indicated he'd been our full-time 17 physician at the Pensacola plant. And I don't recall 18 what he did before then, but ne did indicate that he'd 19 had a special interest in respiratory physiology. 20 Q Was he a man of such an age that he had had 21 some other practice before he'd been the plant physician 22 for Monsanto at Pensacola, or -- 23 A I -- I didn't understand that question. 24 Q Well, I'm trying to find out if he started his 25 medical practice as the plant physician at Pensacola or NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024438 82 1 whether you know. 2 A I don't know whether he'd had a medical 3 practice before that or not, 4 Q Okay. What about Kyle Bohl, the industrial 5 hygienist? What was his prior experience before joining 6 Monsanto? 7 A I don't think Kyle had had any industrial 8 experience. He'd been working on his Doctorate Degree 9 at Kettering Laboratories. 10 Q Okay. So he was a -- his first regular 11 employment, then, was Monsanto? 12 A Yes, except that he was not as young as one 13 might be with just graduated from college, and then 14 proceeded to get a graduate doctorate, althougn there 15 may have been a period of employment that I don't 16 recall. 17 Q At least as a professional in the field of 18 industrial hygiene, his first employment was with 19 Monsanto? 20 A I believe so. 21 Q What about Bruce -- about Bruce Ely? 22 A Bruce Ely had worked in our Central Research 23 Department there in St, Louis, and I've forgotten what 24 biological area he'd gotten into -- into that indicated 25 he might well be trained and developed into an NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024439 83 1 industrial hygienist. 2 I should have said, sir, earlier, in Jack 3 Garrett's case in particular, we were insured by Liberty 4 Mutual Insurance Company for workmen's comp, product 5 liability, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. They had 6 one of the best industrial hygiene units in the country 7 with a staff of -- I don't know -- 12 or 15, 20, to 8 provide industrial hygiene services for the people they 9 insured; and they were Monsanto's insurer at that time. 10 So Jack was trained initially -- "trained," in 11 quotes, if you will (indicating) -- at the Liberty 12 Mutual Laboratories for a period of -- I don't know ~ 13 maybe six weeks, tc at least get his feet wet in -- in 14 industrial hygiene. 15 Q So the -- the actual initial on-the-job, so to 16 speak, or preparation for on-tne-job training for 17 Mr. Garrett came by going to the insurance company 18 and -- and having some instruction. Correct? 19 A I can't recall any otner that had any 20 f orraali ty. 21 Q That was it? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q Okay. 24 Back to Mr. Ely: He was a -- a Monsanto 25 employee in other fields before he came to the Medical NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024440 64 1 Department? 2 A He was in our Central Research Department; yes, 3 sir. 4 Q Okay. What about Dr. Levinskas? 5 A Dr. Levinskas had -- was eitner tne Chief 6 Toxicologist or Assistant Chief Toxicologist for 7 American Cyanaraid Company. His responsibility, I 8 believe, was directing a toxicology laboratory, rather 9 than perhaps being designated as the Corporate Chief 10 Toxicologist. 11 And since American Cyanamid naa acquired 12 Lederle, which had its own animal-toxicity facilities 13 for development of drugs, the industrial toxicology -- 14 toxicology researcu effort was cut way back, and we were 15 able to persuade George Levinskas that he might have a 16 better future with us. 17 Q He is still with Monsanto? 18 A To my knowledge, yes, sir. 19 Q What about Paul Wright? What was nis 20 background? 21 A Paul Wright was, again, in our Central Research 22 Group at Monsanto there in St. Louis. I don't think I 23 recognized that he had biological science expertise 24 until he went with Industrial Bio-Test. And I've 25 forgotten the number of years he was tnere, but we NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024441 85 1 induced him to return to Monsanto to work with 2 Levinskas. 3 Q By the time Mr. Wright came -- is it -- is it 4 Dr. Wright? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q By the time Dr. Wright came to Monsanto, I 7 guess Dr. Hunt had already died? 3 A Yes, sir. 9 Q Who was -- who reported to whom among the 10 toxicologists? Was Wright over Levinskas, or Levinskas 11 over Wright? 12 A Levinskas was over Wright. 13 Q Okay. Did Dr. Levinskas hold any particular 14 title witnin the Medical Department? 15 A I think ne had -- I -- I've forgotten what his 16 title was, but we had begun a program of more complete 17 scrutiny of new Monsanto production facilities in terras 18 of preventing -- or ensuring that the occupational 19 health or industrial hygiene problems had been 20 considered in the construction of the plant, plus the 21 potential for air or water pollution had been very, very 22 carefully examined and proper controls were incorporated 23 into the design. 24 And his title was -- gave some indication that 25 he was responsible for those aspects of ~ of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024442 86 1 developments, not only for new installations, but major 2 expansion of existing operations. 3 Q What -- what does a toxicologist do, as -- as 4 you understand it from your experience with these 5 toxicologists in the Monsanto Medical Department? 6 A Well, at that time -- which has changed since I 7 left the company -- we had no toxicologists who were 8 actually conducting or supervising, within our own 9 facilities, the actual experiments. 10 Monsanto relied until 1978 on using university 11 and independent consultants to do anything more than the 12 acute toxicity screening studies. 13 But the practice then of the toxicologists 14 within the company was to follow the -- the development 15 of data generated in studies, periodic visits to the 16 laboratories doing the work, analyzing the data when 17 it -- when projects were finished, and interpret tnat 18 data. 19 Q Did Dr. Wright have any title within tne 20 department ? 21 A X don't know what it was; probably 22 Toxicologist. 23 Q Okay. Is Dr. Wright still with Monsanto, to 24 your knowledge? 25 A I understand he's not. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024443 87 1 Q How old a man is he? Is he retired? 2 A I would judge Paul to be maybe in his raid-50*s. 3 Q Do you know where he is now; what company he's 4 with? 5 A No, sir. 6 Q Okay. Do you know why he did not stay with 7 Monsanto until reaching retirement age? 8 A Unfortunately, he was drawn into the 9 investigations of the experimental work done at I3T 10 while he was there. 11 Q Well, what investigations are you talking 12 about? 13 A At some point in the -- well, I guess it must 14 have been the late '70's, because I think it was after I 15 had retired -- Industrial Bio-Test Laboratory was 15 alleged to nave produced or mismanaged data that they 17 had supplied their clients for presentation to perhaps 18 tne FDA or some other Federal agencies. 19 Q And that somenow involved Dr. Wright? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q Okay. And that is the reason he then left 22 Monsanto, as you understand it? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q Okay. Do you know what the outcome of that 25 investigation was? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024444 83 1 A My only knowledge is tnat -- that ne and -- and 2 Dr. Keplinger were found guilty of misrepresenting data 3 or mishandling data, scientific data. 4 Q To some -- 5 A I don't know the -- I don't know particulars of 6 the case, sir, but -- 7 Q Okay. But there was some sort of -- of lawsuit 8 about all that? - 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q Okay. 11 The industrial hygienist whose name you can't 12 remember -- we're not sure if it's before or after Fred 13 Johannsen -- do you know what that industrial 14 hygienist's background was, whether he had -- he or she 15 had had previous experience? 16 A Yes, sir. I ---I wish I could recall his name, 17 but he was -- he had his Master's Degree from either the 18 University of Michigan or Wayne State. I think it was 19 the University of Micnigan, because the -- one of the 20 most qualified teachers as -- as one of my peers had 21 been at Wayne, but I think ne'd moved over to University 22 of Michigan; and I think tnat this chap was one of his 23 students, graduates. 24 Q Did he have any employment experience before 25 coming to Monsanto? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024445 89 1 A I don't know. 2 Q Do you recall what age fellow he was when he 3 joined Monsanto? 4 A Maybe late 20' s, raid-20 *s, something of that 5 sort. He was a young man. 6 Q Okay. Wnat about Fred Johannsen? Do you know 7 what his employment experience was before joining 8 Monsanto? 9 A I think he joined Monsanto fresh out of the 10 University of Missouri. 11 Q And was he a Ph.D. -- 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q -- from Missouri? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q Okay. And we've got another industrial 16 hygienist in there, possibly, who may have come before 17 you left. Do you recall anything about that person, or 10 is that just -- you're not sure about that? 19 A I'm not sure about that. 20 Q Okay. 21 A I know the company hired quite a number of 22 industrial hygienists after I retired, and I believe 23 the -- the next one may have been another gentleman from 24 the University of Michigan. 25 Q Okay. Tnen we have Dr. Tillman. Do you know NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024446 90 1 what his experience was? 2 A Dr. Kilbourn? 3 Q Dr, Tillman, I thought I -- 4 A Oh, Dr. Tillman. I'm sorry. Ernie had been a 5 plant physician, I guess, for Olin -- 6 Q Olin? 7 A -- up at Alton, Illinois. And he came with us, 8 stayed for a week, and went back to Olin; and then 9 returned to us, and was there when I left. 10 I've heard since that -- that he's now gone 11 back to Olin, so I don't understand the consequences or 12 circumstances here. 13 But nis joo as long as I was with Monsanco was 14 doing physical examinations and treatment for -- of 15 minor injuries. 16 Q I guess one consequence would be the movers 17 would be busy. 18 I think we've, as best I can tell, covered tne 19 people that you can recall that were on the staff of tne 20 Medical Department during tne time you were tnere ana 21 what their backgrounds were. 22 And am I correct in understanding that as these 23 younger industrial hygienists came on, that is when you 24 oegan to reduce the number of plant visits you were 25 personally making yourself? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024447 91 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q Did you have the responsibility for supervising 3 the work or these younger industrial hygienists? 4 A Indirectly, through Jack Garrett. 5 Q Sow, did Jack report to you? 6 A Yes, sir. - 7 Q And then they reported to Jack? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q But as long as you were at Monsanto, you were 10 the -- the top industrial hygienist? 11 A Yes, sir, although I was given the title of 12 Director of Environmental Health Services, because 13 Dr. Levinskas also reported to me and because of the -- 14 the department's involvement in air and water pollution 15 control. 16 Q Okay. And let me -- 17 A Dr. Levinskas -- my responsibilities for his 18 activities were almost completely administrative, 19 because I'm not a toxicologist and I was in no position 20 to -- 21 Q Grade his paper? 22 A -- interpret his interpretation. 23 Q Yeah. You -- let me see if I can understand 24 this. You had -- as the Director of Environmental 25 Health Services, you had basically two functions that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024448 92 1 reported to you* One was the industrial hygiene, and 2 the other was the toxicology. 3 A That's right, sir. 4 Q And in the industrial hygienechain, you had 5 Jack Garrett, wno had direct supervisory responsibility 6 over these younger industrial hygienists that were out 7 in the field on a regular basis. 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q And then on the otner side you had 10 Dr. Levinskas reporting to you, and he was an M.D. 11 toxicologist -- 12 A No. I beg your pardon. He was a Ph.D. 13 Q Ph.D. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry; a Ph.D. 14 toxicologist. And your supervision there was more of 15 tne things that involved salary administration and 16 budget and that type of thing, rather than supervising 17 the correctness of his work. 18 A Exactly. 19 Q On the industrial hygieneside, where Jack 20 Garrett was and the people there, you could supervise 21 the correctness of tneir work because of your knowledge 22 in tne area? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q Now, Dr. Levinskas hadreporting to him 25 Dr. Wright. Was he a Pa.D. or M.D.? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024449 93 1 A Ph.D. 2 Q Ph.D. And so indirectly, just as you 3 indirectly supervised these younger toxicologists, you 4 also indirectly supervised Dr. Wright? 5 A And Dr. Johannsen. 6 Q And Dr. Johannsen. Was Dr. Johannsen an M.D., 7 Pn.D.? 8 A Ph.D. 9 Q Ph.D. Okay. 10 A At no time did I ever supervise doctors, 11 M. D.' s. 12 Q M.D. doctors; okay. 13 A This is beside the point, but crazy Johnny 14 Carson last night was talking about -- you might take 15 this off camera. 16 Q Oh, that's okay. It's easier to leave it on 17 than take it off. 18 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Why don't -- why 19 don't we get to it during the next break? 20 THE WITNESS: Well, don't you want 21 to -- 22 MR. LACEY: Yeah. Let's hear what 23 he's -- 24 THE WITNESS: He was talking about 25 soaiebody who was a Pn.D., and he said, NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024450 94 1 "What does Ph.D. stand for?" 2 And Fred de Cordova, or whoever his 3 producer is, was trying to tell him tnat, 4 "Well, it's Doctor of Philosophy." 5 He says, "Doctor of Philosophy?" 6 I'm sorry. Camera. 7 MR. LACEY: That's okay. It does -- 8 THE WITNESS; And he gets what; $4 9 million a year? 10 MR. LACEY; Whatever; I don't know. 11 That's -- I guess to -- to complete 12 that little story, theoretically, I guess, 13 we have two Doctors here. But it won't 14 get you very far with J.D.'s, either, will 15 it? 16 THE WITNESS: No, I -- I agree that 17 it's more than an honorary situation in 18 the case of your professions. 19 MR. LACEY: But everybody gets to be 20 a Doctor these days. 21 BY MR. LACEY: 22 Q Well, in any event, your -- your supervision 23 there in tne toxicology area was an administrative 24 supervision over these Ph.D. toxicologists? 25 A Yes, sir. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024451 95 1 Q In terms of hiring responsibility, did you make 2 the hiring decisions on the people that you supervised? 3 A I participated in the interviews of those 4 people, yes -- 5 Q Okay. 6 A -- and -- and made recommendations; yes, sir. 7 Q Did tnat include both on the toxicology side as 8 well as the industrial hygiene side? 9 A Yes, sir, with the recommendation subject, of 10 course, to Dr. Kelly's approval. 11 Q So ultimately you would go anead and even 12 review with Dr. Kelly, as the Director of the entire 13 Department, recommendations that you were making about 14 hiring individual professionals in the department. 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q Okay. And this title of Director of 17 Environmental Health Services was there so that it would 18 encompass the fact tnat you had toxicologists reporting 19 to you for administrative purposes? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q But now going back to the question that got us 22 off on this line, you were the top industrial hygienist 23 at Monsanto during the -- the time of your employment 24 there? 25 A Yes, sir. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024452 96 1 Q Okay* 2 Now, with regard to plant visits, we -- we 3 mentioned earlier that you were, when you started out at 4 lease, making plant visits to each plant at least once a 5 year and reviewing the departments in the plants. 6 Mr. Garrett joined in 1951 or *52, and I guess 7 he also did plant visits. Correct? 8 A We shared the -- the experience; yes, sir. 9 Q Was that a -- was that a pleasant experience or 10 an unpleasant experience? The way you said that, I 11 wasn't sure how to take it. 12 A I -- I should have used another word. I'm 13 sorry I am not more articulate. It was never 14 unpleasant. 15 Q Okay. You both took part inthat duty? 16 A In that program. 17 Q Exactly. And inaddition to that, you branched 18 out into the difference between your working on air 19 proDlems in particular, and his working on water 20 problems, as pollution went? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q And did you continue to maxe regular plant 23 visits, at least until the point that another industrial 24 hygienist joinea Monsanto sometime in the decade of the 25 ' 6 0 ' s ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024453 97 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q Now, how did you and -- and Mr. Garrett divide 3 up the plants? Did you have a group of plants that were 4 your plants, and he had a group of plants that were his 5 plants, or what -- how was the division made? 6 A There was -- I don't remember if there was any 7 official designation tnat Plant A would be Mr. Garrett's 8 responsibility and Plant B would be mine. I think we 9 probably rotated. If he went one time, the next time 10 there was a visit scheduled to the plant I went. 11 Q Okay. So that way, the plants got the benefit 12 of both of you seeing them from time to time. 13 A Yes, sir. 14 ... Q Now, when other industrial hygienists joined 15 Monsanto in the *60's, did you still continue to make 16 plant visits, or at that point did that duty become one 17 tnat was not a significant part of your work? 18 A I made fewer visits, but I'm sure I made some. 19 Q Okay. 20 A In the meantime. Jack Garrett had a -- had gone 21 the route of assigning plants to the newer people. 22 Q Now, you mentioned that you made reports of 23 your plant visits. Did Mr. Garrett do likewise? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q And were those reports done in such a fashion NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024454 93 1 that tnere were separate sections on each department 2 within the plant you visited? 3 A Normally, yes, sir. 4 Q And did those reports describe, and in -- for a 5 particular department of the plant, now the operations 6 were being -- being carried on, and what potential 7 hazards were there, and what might need to be done in 8 order to protect against the hazards? 9 A Well, we had established -- I think I ' 10 personally, before Jack joined me, had -- had made a 11 survey, a very detailed walk-through industrial hygiene 12 survey of every plant, where we listed all the raw 13 materials, the products that were made, whether 14 protective clothing was used, whether proper ventilation 15 was used, wnether the men were provided with 16 respirators; the -- the normal control measures for 17 industrial exposures. 18 We repeated those at intervals. I don't recall 19 that I did again in such a complete review, because Jack 20 pretty much took over that area. 21 On the other hand, certainly, if there was a 22 new operation that we didn't have basic information on, 23 then either he or I, depending who was there, would add 24 that to the list. 25 Q Did you or Mr. Garrett see to it that your NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024455 99 1 younger industrial hygienists who made plant visits 2 continued to make reports on those visits? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q And reporting department by department on what 5 tney found and what recommendations might be made? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q And did thatpractice continue until you left 8 Monsanto? 9 A To my knowledge, yes, sir. 10 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Have we got a place 11 for a lunch break in here? 12 MR. LACEY: Yean. I'll get to a 13 point we can do that pretty quickly here. 14 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Okay. 15 MR. LACEY: You're not getting 16 hungry, are you? If you'd had the buffet, 17 you wouldn't be hungry yet. 18 A You -- you have mentioned, sir, several times, 19 until tne time I retired. I think it's pertinent to 20 point out tnat in February of '75 I -- I was given an 21 assignment to work with -- well, initially, five other 22 people -- peers, if you will, of chemical companies, who 23 were -- who had been designated by 11 vice-presidents of 24 11 companies to investigate tne establishment of a -- an 25 industry-supported toxicology research institute. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024456 100 1 And I served as a member of the work group, as 2 it was called, whicn was charged with putting together a 3 report that the high-level people that we were dealing 4 with, and yet not absolute top management, could take to 5 their Boards of Directors and recommend the funding by 6 these original 11 companies of establishing the 7 institute. 8 In June of `75 the Chairman of the Board of the 9 institute, which had been agreed to be established in 10 August of *74 -- I'm getting my years mixed up here. 11 HR. SH0E30THAM; You -- you said -- 12 A I retired in *76, and from '75 to *76 -- no, 13 that's right. It was -- 14 MR. SH0330THAM: You -- you told 15 ... us -- 16 A -- February of '75. 17 MR. SH0E3QTHAM; -- February of *75. 18 A In April of *75 this group of 11 19 vice-presidents agreed to go to their managements. I 20 guess by that time they had an agreement of their 21 managements to fund this multi-raillion-dollar 22 laboratory. 23 And in June of '75 the Chairman of the Board of 24 Directors of this new institute asked if I could be 25 assigned full-time as his -- his administrative NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024457 101 1 assistant to work toward the establishment of that 2 laboratory. So from then until I retired, I was 3 essentially full-time on that activity, although 4 Dr. Roush wanted me around 10 percent of the time. 5 3Y MR. LACEY: 6 Q So, basically, from February 1975 on, you were 7 sort of out of the Medical Department circles at 6 Monsanto generally? 9 A Yes, sir, although -- 10 Q Okay. 11 A -- I was there for most of the weekly staff 12 meetings that Dr. Roush scneduled. 13 Q What was the name of this new lab that was 14 established? 15 A Chemical Industry Institute of Toxicology. 16 Q And where was it located? 17 A Well, I was Chairman of the Site Selection 18 Committee that recommended the Research Triangle Park in 19 North Carolina, and that's where it is. It was 20 dedicated in -- 21 Q And -- 22 A -- I think in 1978, perhaps. 23 Q -- who -- who all supports this thing? 24 A Well, the original 11 included Monsanto, Dow, 25 Union Carbide, Shell Chemical, Exxon Chemical, Diamond NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024458 102 1 Shamrock/ Eastman Kodak, Celanese; and I -- I don't 2 think I've gotten to 11, but those are representative. 3 By the time I retired, the membership had grown 4 to, I think, 18 or 21. And I expect today it's over 30, 5 but I don't know. 6 Q And what was the purpose of this venture? 7 A The purpose of this lab was to -- excuse me. I 8 had to burp. 9 The purpose was to fund a research organization 10 tnat would direct its efforts to developing toxicity 11 data on high-volume chemicals that were of common 12 interest to the whole industry. 13 The idea had been proposed as early as 1955, 14 I guess, but there were -- they never could settle the 15 question as to whose products would be worked on, how 16 they would assess the supporting funds, whether it was 17 going to be based on sales volume, or what have you. 18 And this was one of the jobs that we as a work 19 committee had to -- had to settle and work out for the 20 acceptance of the proposition: A laboratory that would 21 beyond -- that would be beyond question in the 22 objectivity of the data, the information would be 23 published, made widely available to everybody, to work 24 as closely as possible with any Government or other 25 university agencies, and become what had occurred in NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024459 103 1 Great Britain as one of the top research facilities in 2 tne -- in the world, actually, as an independent 3 laboratory that did A-l 1 work and was above reproach. 4 Q So when I asked you about your looking over 5 these industrial hygienists, the really stopping date 6 and being able to say that they still made written 7 reports of their plant visits would be February 1975? 8 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: With regard to his 9 supervision? 10 MR. LACEY: Yean. I mean, that's -- 11 that's how we got off on this little 12 digression. 13 A I'm sorry. I believe that's correct. I don't 14 recall if that one day a week that I was in St. Louis, I 15 was reviewing that kind of -- those kind of studies. 16 BY MR. LACEY: 17 Q Okay. But those type of studies did exist at 18 least up until February of 1975? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 MR. LACEY: Why don't we just break 21 right there. 22 23 (Luncheon recess) 24 25 ******* NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024460 104 1 AETBBHQQfl SSSglQS 2 3 4 THE VIDSOTECHNICIAN: Okay. We've 5 been off the record for a luncn break. 6 We're back on the record now. The time is 7 1:59 p.m. 8 9 ******* 10 11 CONTINUED.EXAMINATION 12 13 QUESTIONS BY MR. LACEY: 14 Q You mentioned rignt before we took our luncn 15 break that this group of chemical companies created a 16 toxicological study institute in the Research Triangle 17 Park area of North Carolina. 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q And I -- if I understand correctly, tnis was 20 designed to deal with high-volume chemicals that would 21 be ones that were produced in large quantity by several 22 companies. Is that correct? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q That type of institute would not have dealt 25 with a chemical like PCBs, would it? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024461 105 1 A No, sir. ' 2 Q And the reason it wouldn't is Decause tne sole 3 manufacturer of PCBs was Monsanto. Correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 Q And as a result, a single chemical produced by 6 one company would still be the responsibility of that 7 company for its own study? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q When we talk about PCBs, you understand that 10 tne lawsuit that -- that's brought us here today is one 11 that involves PCBs, do you not? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q And -- and you understand when we talk about 14 PCBs, we're talking about something that's known as 15 polychlorinated biphenyls and sometimes polychlorinated 16 diphenyls? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q Those two names, polychlorinated biphenyl and 19 polychlorinated diphenyl, are the same thing? 20 A Are poly- -- arepolychlorinated -- I beg your 21 pardon? Which -- what did you say again? 22 Q Polychlorinatedbiphenyl andpolychlorinated 23 diphenyl -- 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q -- are the same thing. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024462 105 1 A Not phenol. Phenyl. 2 Q Phenyl. 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q Okay. I'll get my pronunciations correct. 5 A Well, the -- the ending is n-y-1 instead of 6 o-l -- 7 Q -o-l. 8 A --which are different compounds. 9 Q Right. And either -- either polychlorinated 10 bipnenyl or diphenyl would both be PCBs? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Generally, those products were known at 13 Monsanto by tne name Aroclor, were they not? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q That was the -- is that -- would that be a 10' trade name that you'd -- wnat would you call that name, 17 Aroclor ? 18 A I believe bulletins for the material had the 19 MR," indicating it was a trade name. 20 Q Okay. But it -- that's what it was known as by 21 Monsanto, anyway? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q Also, if I understandcorrectly, Monsanto sold 24 PCBs for different applications under other names like 25 Askarel? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024463 107 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q That was a PCB used for electrical 3 applications ? 4 A To my knowledge, yes, sir. 5 Q There were also PCBs sold under the name 6 Py ranol? Are you familiar with that? 7 A Yes, sir, I'm -- I don't recall what it 8 ref erred to. 9 Q And sold under the name Inerteen? 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q And that was another PCB product? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q Sold under the name Pydraul? Do you recall 14 that? 15 A Yes, sir, but in conjunction with otner 16 compounds in the -- in the formulation, I believej not 17 PCBs only. 18 Q All right. Pydraul -- 19 A I could be wrong, but -- 20 Q You don't recall Pydrauls being pure PCBs? 21 A No, sir. 22 Q Okay. Also, PCB products were sold under the 23 names Tnerraanol? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 U So there were a variety of different names that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024464 10 8 1 were used for different products that were sold by 2 Monsanto containing PCBs? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q But all of those products were products that to 5 the extent they had PCBs in them, had PCBs that were 6 manufactured by Monsanto? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q In fact, Monsanto had a patent on the 9 manufacture of PCBs, did it not? 10 A I don't think so, sir. 11 Q You're not aware of that? 12 A Mo, sir. 13 Q Do you have any understanding why no other 14 companies manufactured PCBs here in the United States? 15 A Mo, sir. 16 Q Do you recall which plants manufactured PCBs 17 for Monsanto? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q And wnich ones were they? 20 A There was a plant in Anniston, Alabama, and a 21 unit also in -- John -- not John; the W. K. Krummricn 22 plant in East St. Louis, Illinois. 23 Q Okay. When you say, "East St. Louis, 24 Illinois," I think of St. Louis being in Missouri, but 25 that's across the river on the other side of the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024465 109 1 Mississippi? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q And that's over in Illinois when you cross the 4 river? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q Are those the only two plants in the United 7 States that you're aware of where PCBs were produced? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q Where else did Monsanto have plants where they 10 manufactured PCBs? 11 A We had one plant in Great Britain. And I'm not 12 sure whether it was at Newport, South Wales, or Ruthin 13 in North Wales. I've -- I've forgotten. 14 Q But it was in Wales? 15 A Well, it was in Great Britain -- 16 Q And it -- 17 A -- yes, in North or South Wales. 18 Q Yes. Where else did Monsanto manufacture PCBs 19 worldwide? 20 A I don't know of any other place. 21 Q Okay. Were there ocher people outside the 22 United States who manufactured PCBs? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q Wno else manufactured PCBs besides Monsanto? 25 A I don't think I can recall the exact names? but NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024466 110 1 Bayer in Germany, I believe, was one. 2 There was a company in France that had a name 3 something like Protolac. 4 There was a company in Italy, and I donft 5 recall the name of that if I ever knew it. 6 And as far as we know, tnere was manufacturing 7 behind the Iron Curtain either in Russia itself or 8 satellite countries. 9 Q Do you know whether PCBs were manufactured in 10 Japan or not? 11 A They were, yes. 12 Q Do you know who manufactured PC3s in Japan? 13 A No, sir. 14 Q Is it possible that Monsanto was one of tne 15 manufacturers in Japan? 16 A It's possible, but I don't recall if that was 17 the case. 18 Q Okay. 19 With regard to the United States PC3 market, do 20 you recall what percentage of the actual sales tnat took 21 place in the United States came from PCBs produced by 22 Monsanto? 23 A I -- I don't understand the way you phrased 24 that question, sir. 25 Q Okay. Well, we know that Monsanto was tne only NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024467 111 1 company that manufactured PCBs in the United States. 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q I guess I'm trying to find out: Were they 4 Dasically the only company that sold PCBs in the United 5 States ? 6 A I can't answer that. I don't know that any 7 otner companies did. 6 Q OKay. 9 Let me ask if -- a couple more questions to 10 kind of finisn up on this inquiry about the plant 11 inspections. And I'm now particularly going to focus on 12 the plant inspections that involved tne plants that 13 produced PCBs, whicn would oe the Anniston, Alabama, 14 plant? tne plant -- the Krummrich plant in East 15 St. Louis; and this plant in Wales. Did you personally 16 ever inspect any of those three plants? 17 A The two in this country onseveral occasions, 18 in conjunction with routine visits to the plants, 19 looking at all departments. 20 Q And did you prepare written reports of those 21 plant inspections? 22 A I'm sure I did. 23 Q And didthose reportsinclude sections 24 discussing the portions of the plant where PCBs were 25 made ? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024468 112 1 A If it was a -- an inspection or a review of 2 the -- of the total plant, there woulci be reference to 3 the PCBs Departments; yes, sir. 4 Q To whom were those reports directed? 5 A I think without exception to the plant manager, 6 with copies to che Safety Engineer and other levels of 7 supervision, and with -- excuse me -- I believe a copy 8 to the plant physician. 9 Q Would there be a copy that was retained by the 10 Medical Department? 11 A I would expect so; yes, sir. 12 Q So those reports would have existed in the 13 files of the plant manager or superintendent; the files 14 of che actual plant physician, whoever was the treating15 doctor in the plant; and in the files of tne Medical 16 Department; and in the files of the Safety Department at 17 the plant? 18 A 1 would think so, yes, sir. 19 Q What form would those reports take? Was tnere 20 a special form of document that was filled out? 21 A I mentioned earlier this morning that we made 22 base-line surveys of all the plants, and these -- we did 23 have special forms that indicated the name of the plant; 24 department visited; the name of the supervisor; and then 25 a column listing tne raw materials; the -- a column ______________________________________________________________________________________ NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024469 113 1 which related to the product manufactured, and I don't 2 know that that was more than by name in tnis particular 3 column; and then an indication o what precautions were 4 provided to limit exposure. 5 Q Were tnose base-line reports maintained as a 6 permanent part of the Medical Department files? 7 A I suspect that they were not, as repeat studies 8 were done. Tne earlier one may well have been 9 destroyed. 10 Q So you didn't keep any ready reference of what 11 improvements had been made by your department in the 12 safety protections for employees at tne plant? 13 A Only by comparison with the most immediate 14 previous report. 15 Q To understand how that relates to, for example, 16 the review by plant physicians of worker health, tnat 17 makes it somewhat difficult to assess the exposure that 18 workers had some years ago, because you don't have any 19 record of what operations were being used at that time. 20 Would that be correct? 21 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Now, you're asking 22 him -- if I understand your question, 23 you're directing his attention toward tne 24 records in the Medical Department; but I 25 think he also told you that those records NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024470 114 1 would exist in several other locations, 2 including various files at the plants 3 themselves. Did you mean to exclude that 4 from your question? 5 HR. LACEY: Well, if they're 6 permanently kept somewhere in the company, 7 I'd like to know that. And then I'd like 8 to know why I don't have tnem, but that's 9 an issue we can address later. 10 HR. SHGE30THAM: Do you understand 11 the question, Mr. Wheeler? 12 A I don't -- 13 BY MR. LACEY: 14 Q Let me try to clarify. 15 A Please. 16 Q Okay. Earlier you talked tome aoout the fact 17 that people were examined by plant physicians; and it 18 was your thought that those examinations would turn up 19 any problems that these people had from exposures to 20 chemicals in the plant, and that tne plant doctors would 21 be able to relate any problems to the chemicals the 22 workmen had worked with. That was your testimony, was 23 it not? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. Now, in order torelate anyhealth NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024471 115 1 problems that workers might have to a chemical, one 2 would need to know what chemical they were working with 3 first. Correct? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q They'd also need to know how and towhat extent 6 they were exposed to tne chemical. Correct? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q And the question of to what extent and how 9 workers were exposed to the cnemicals that they work 10 with would depend upon what precautions were provided to 11 tnern in the workplace to keep them from coining into 12 contact with the chemical. Correct? 13 A I tnink that's correct; yes, sir. 14 Q And so it would be important to know tne 15 history of what protections were provided to workmen 16 throughout their working with the chemical in order for 17 a doctor to assess the exposure they'd had and how that 18 would relate to causing any injury they had. Correct? 19 A Not necessarily. I think more importantly tne 20 medical history on each worker, which was retained in 21 the personnel file on each employee, was a better 22 indication of whether there had been any difficulties 23 experienced by the employee in any one department or any 24 of the several departments that he might have worked in 25 during his work history. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024472 116 1 Q Well, that's not my question. Let me see if I 2 can make ray question clear. 3 Let's assume for a moment tnat Monsanto had a 4 department where the workmen in that department were 5 provided with Monsanto -- fresh, clean, Monsanto6 supplied clothing every day. Okay? You understand wnat 7 I'm saying? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q That tnatclothingincluded caps for the head, 10 underwear, socks, the outer clothing they wore, shoe 11 covers, gloves; they were provided with creams to put on 12 any exposed skin as a barrier to keep the chemical away 13 from the skin. 14 Wow, if a workman were provided with all those 15 protections, it would be relatively difficult for them 16 to come into contact with the cnemical they were working 17 with, at least by way of skin exposure, would itnot? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q And if a workman had all those protections so 20 it was very difficult for thea to cone into skin contact 21 witn the chemical tney were working with, the fact that 22 they didn't get sick from skin contact with that 23 chemical doesn't tell you a whole lot, because they were 24 protected from that happening. Do you understand what 25 I'm saying? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024473 117 1 A I tnink it would indicate that they were not 2 exposed to the point tnat they had any difficulty. 3 Q Right. And if a workman had difficulty who 4 had had that type of precautions taken, the doctor 5 looking at him could say, "Well, I don't think it's 6 from this chemical, because here are the precautions 7 that protected him. He wasn't really exposed to it." 8 Correct? 9 A I think that's logical. 10 Q Now, having said that, in order for a doctor to 11 look at a workman at Monsanto who is experiencing a 12 problem and determine whetner or not it was caused by 13 the fact he worked in a particular department with a 14 particular cneiuical f or a period of time in his career, 15 the doctor would also need to know what precautions were 16 taken at that time to keep the worker from being exposed 17 to the chemical, wouldn't he? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q Okay. And that -- inthat sense, it would be 20 important to know the history of the worker precautions 21 over time in individual departments? 22 A Right, sir. 23 Q Okay. And Iguess thatreally comes backto 24 the point of the difficulty, if there are not records 25 maintained on how workmen were protected and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024474 118 1 improvements you made, knowing what the exposure was in 2 the past. 3 A I think, sir, there -- there were manufacturing 4 operating procedures which were maintained that would 5 indicate any changes. 6 Q Okay. Now, when you talk about manufacturing 7 operating procedures, what are you talking about? 6 A I think for every production department in 9 Monsanto, there was very detailed description of, one, 10 what the raw materials were; any hazard associated with 11 those; how the raw materials were blended, if you will, 12 so they would react properly and safely; any byproducts 13 that might be produced; and then the analysis of tne 14 final material to show that it was in -- within 15 specifications; and tne packaging, then, of that 16 material to be snipped, whether it be in five-gallon 17 cans, 55-gallon drums, or tank cars. 18 I don't know that I've left anything out there, 19 other than what first-aid equipment was available, what 20 other protection had to be provided in the minds of tne 21 people that prepare the operating instructions. 22 Q So it's your belief that these operating 23 instructions, including the precautions sections of 24 tnem, would help us know what precautions were provided 25 to Monsanto workers in any particular department? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024475 119 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q Okay. And if you were, as an industrial 3 hygienist, trying to go back and figure out what it was 4 that Monsanto did to protect its workers and you 5 couldn't find your inspection reports that you did year 6 to year or however often they were done, then you would 7 go and look at these operating procedure manuals. 8 Correct? 9 A No, sir. I don't recall referring to the 10 operating procedure manuals. I understood that they 11 existed, but -- 12 Q No, I -- that's not my question. 13 Obviously, you would refer to your plant 14 inspection notes, wouldn't you? 15 A Excuse me. Yes, sir. 16 Q I guess what I'm saying is; If you as an 17 industrial hygienist at Monsanto were attempting to go 18 oack and find out what protections had been provided, 19 and for some reason you couldn't find your plant 20 inspection reports, then you would go look at tnese 21 operating procedure manuals. Correct? 22 A I think so; yes, sir. 23 Q Did youever actually review any of the 24 operating procedures manuals wnen you went to tne plants 25 to make sure that what the workers were doing tne day NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024476 120 1 that you were there was what the operating procedure 2 manuals called for? 3 A No, sir. We relied on observation. 4 Q I see. So you -- you simply assumed that as 5 the ordinary course of business, tne plant managers 6 would ensure tnat the operating procedures manuals were 7 being carried out; and therefore what you saw on your 8 inspection was what tney did on a daily basis. 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q And again, that's the reason you didn't make 11 unannounced visits: You assumed nobody was going to do 12 anytning special; that you could show up there any day, 13 having been announced a week in advance, and tney would 14 still be doing what they always did. 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q Okay. 17 Now, do you recall any differences in the way 18 that workmen in the unit that made PCBs in Illinois were 19 protected frora exposure to PCBs, as compared to the 20 workers who made PCBs in Alabama? 21 A Am I aware tnat there were differences? 22 Q Do you recall whether there were any or not? 23 A I don't know that I recalled, until I reviewed 24 certain documents with Mr. Shoebotnam this weekend. 25 Q I see. Mr. Shoebotham has snownyousome NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024477 121 1 documents this past weekend? 2 A Yes, sir; yesterday, I -- 3 Q Yesterday; okay. Did he call your attention to 4 the fact that there were differences in the worker 5 protection? 6 A He showed me documents that would indicate 7 tnat, yes. 8 Q Okay. Did that refresh your recollection that, 9 in fact, there were worker differences in protection at 10 the two plants? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Having had your recollection refreshed, what 13 can you tell me about tnac? 14 A What can I tell about what, sir? 15 Q About the differences. 16 A There were changes of clothing provided at the 17 Krummrich plant. 18 Q That's the one in Illinois? 19 A That's the one in Illinois. 20 Q Uh-huh. 21 A The employees were authorized to quit early -- 22 quit 20 minutes early to take snowers. 23 I think tnese were the principal differences. 24 The plant at Anniston operated for -- well, I 25 guess from 1929 to wnen they shut down in the '70*s NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024478 122 1 without tnat protection and witnout any difficulty. 2 Q Is it your understanding that the workers in 3 Anniston never had the benefit of changes of clothing? 4 A My understanding is that they did not get 5 co:apany-provided daily changes of clothing. 6 Q I see. 7 A They may or may not have been given clean 3 coveralls weekly. 9 They were not paid to take a shower, or they 10 did not take a shower on paid time, the eignt-hour 11 workday. 12 Q Were there any other differences that you were 13 able to ascertain after reviewing wnatever documents 14 Mr. Snoebotham showed you? 15 A Those are the only ones that come to mind. 16 Q How -- how many documents have you reviewed in 17 preparation for your deposition? 18 A Oh, I would say 150, 200, perhaps. 19 Q How many pages, if we stack -- stack them up on 20 the floor here? Would they be a foot tall, or -- 21 A They would be about tnat size. 22 Q Okay. 23 Did you, as an industrial hygienist for 24 Monsanto, direct tnat the workers in Illinois be treated 25 differently than the workers in Alabama? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024479 123 1 A No, sir. 2 Q Were you aware, at the time you made plant 3 inspections of those two plants, that the workers were 4 being treated differently? 5 A I believe so; yes, sir. 6 Q Did tnat cause you any concern at all? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q You didn't think the company was failing to 9 provide protections it should at the plant in Alabama? 10 A Not at all, sir. 11 Q And you didn't think that the plant -- or the 12 company was wasting money by providing too many 13 protections in Illinois? 14 A I don't think it was a question of money, sir. 15 I think that the -- our feeling was that they were given 16 privileges and were provided with clotning when it 17 wasn't necessary. 18 Q And you're telling me that there wasn't any 19 effort on the part of the company to reduce expenses by 20 reducing unnecessary steps or processes? 21 A Not if there was a question in the minds of 22 ourselves or the employees or the production people that 23 there was a -- a situation where they thought the extra 24 precaution was necessary. 25 Q Was there any significant difference between NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024480 124 1 the manufacturing process in Alabama and the 2 manufacturing process in Illinois? 3 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: The manufacturing 4 process specifically for PCBs? 5 MR. LACEYs Yes. Let me rephrase 6 that question. 7 BY MR. LACEY: 8 Q Was there any significant difference between 9 tne manufacturing process in Alabama, wnere PCBs were 10 made at the Anniston plant, and the manufacturing 11 process of PCBs in Illinois, where they were -- PCBs 12 were made at the Krummrich plant? 13 A My recollection is that the operations in 14 Illinois were more exposed to the elements, if you will; 15 whereas, in Anniston they were within an enclosed 16 building that had a lot of openings in it, but they -- 17 they were in a manufacturing building; whereas, I think 18 the operation at the Krummrich plant was a unit that -- 19 like more -- like would be referred to an operation in a 20 refinery that you'd see as you drive along the nighway. 21 Q Was one operation more likely than tne other to 22 let PCBs escape from the manufacturing process and come 23 into contact with workmen? 24 A Not to my knowledge. 25 Q Would having tne plant out in tne open, as it NELL MC CALLUNI & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024481 125 1 was in Illinois, make it more likely that PCBs that did 2 escape from the manufacturing process, if any did, would 5 be dissipated more quickly? 4 A I would think that would be the case, yes. 5 Q Wnereas, the manufacturing process in A1 a c am a 6 in the enclosed building would make it more likely that 7 if any PCBs did escape, that there would be longer 8 periods of time for contact witu employees before 9 dissipation. Correct? 10 A I think it's logical to assume that the -- in 11 the case of vapors, they would persist longer within tne 12 building that wasn't as well-ventilated as the units 13 were at -- natural ventilation, as they were in 14 Illinois. 15 Q And yet the greater precautions were taken in 16 the plant in Illinois. 17 A Tnat's right, sir. 18 Q Was there any difference in the health and 19 safety laws tnat were applicable to Monsanto plants in 20 Illinois versus those that were applicable to Monsanto 21 in Alabama that would require or encourage Monsanto to 22 give greater protection to its Illinois workers than it 23 Alabama workers? 24 A Not to my knowledge. 25 Q Was there any difference in the susceptibility NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024482 126 1 of the workers in Alabama versus the workers in Illinois 2 to any problems that might arise from PCBs that would 3 make it logical to provide more protections to the ones 4 in Illinois than the ones in Alabama? 5 A Not that I'm aware of. 6 .Q Were there any -- any differences in the 7 workmen's compensation laws, or anything like that, tnat 8 would make it logical to put more stress on protection 9 in Illinois than Alabama? 10 A Not to my knowledge. 11 Q Was there anything about theworkmen's 12 compensation carrier, Liberty Mutual's, industrial 13 hygiene program that directed that people in Illinois be 14 provided more protection than people in Alabama? 15 A No, sir. 16 Q Was there anything about what the intern- -- 17 the industrial hygienists employed by Monsanto itself, 18 like yourself, said tnat suggested a reason why the PC3 IS workers in Illinois got greater precautions than those 20 in Alabama? 21 A I don't recall any discussions. I tnink our 22 reaction was that the experience in Anniston indicated 23 tnat the materials could be manufactured and handled 24 safely without the precautions that were being taken in 25 111inois. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024483 127 1 Q Well, now, Anniston, Alabama, was the older of 2 the two plants, was it not? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q The Kruramrich plant was later built and started 5 producing long after Anniston had already been 6 producing? 7 A Sometime after. I don't know the age or the 8 differential in years. 9 Q So if you were going to pattern the new 10 operation on the old operation, as you understand it, 11 there wouldn't be any explanation for why this clothing 12 change and this paid shower ever got started in 13 Illinois. Correct? 14 A To my knowledge, there would be no reason to do 15 it because of tne Aroclors; but tne two plants were 16 completely different in terms of the otner products that 17 were manufactured. 18 The Krummrich plant had a fair number of toxic 19 chemicals that were used as raw materials. This was not 20 true at Anniston. 21 So the provision of clothing changes and tnese 22 extra precautions were not uncommon at the Krummrich 23 plant; whereas, there had never been any operations at 24 the -- at tne Anniston plant that required such 25 protection. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024484 128 1 Q Is it your testimony that every employee at tne 2 Krummrich plant got a change of clothing, fresn change 3 of clotning, every day? 4 A Oh, no, sir. 5 Q That every employee at the Krummrich plant got 6 a paid shower at the end of the shift every day? 7 A No, sir. & Q That was only specific departments at 9 Krummricn, was it not? 10 A Oh, no, sir. My comment was -- if I -- if I 11 wasn't articulate, I hope I can be. I said that there 12 were more manufacturing units. No. 1, at the Krummricn 13 plant. I think their work population was mayoe 1700 or 14 1800 . Tne Krumm- -- tne Anniston plant had maybe a 15 maximum of 300. 16 The materials at the Anniston plant were -- 17 until such time as they introduced the production of 18 elemental chlorine down there, were physiologically 19 inert, in -- in -- in my estimation, except for the 20 PCBs, whicn I would not classify as -- as 21 physiologically inert, but with a degree of risk tnat 22 was not comparable to the number of operating units on 23 completely unrelated polychlorinated biphenyl at the 24 Illinois plant. 25 So that I would agree tnat in a number of tne NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024485 129 1 units at the Krummricn plant, tne changes of clothing 2 and the shower periods and so on were completely 3 j ustified. 4 Q But my question, gust so I'm clears There were 5 units at the Krummrich unit in Illinois where workmen 6 were not provided with clothing every day. Correct? 7 A That's rignt, sir. 8 Q And there were a number of units at the 3 Kruiamrich plant where workmen were not provided witn 10 paid showers every day. 11 A That's right, sir. 12 Q The risk to a PCB worker in Illinois was no 13 greater tnan the risk to a PCB worker in Alabama. 14 Correct? 15 A That's right, sir. 16 Q And, in fact, if anything, the risk to a PCB 17 worker in Illinois was less than that to one in Alabama, 18 because the facilities for manufacture of PCBs in 13 Illinois were not enclosed? 20 A I believe that's rignt, sir. 21 Q Okay. So, again, in terms of the actual risks 22 to a Monsanto worker manufacturing PCBs, they were 23 certainly no greater in Illinois than in Alabama? 24 A Tnat's right, sir. 25 Q And that cannot explain tne difference in tne NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024486 130 1 protections provided? 2 A That's right, sir. 3 Q And there was no plantwide policy in Illinois 4 that every workman got all these special precautions; so 5 no plantwide policy can explain the difference, either. 6 Correct? 7 A I -- I can't answer it in terms of policy. 8 Your previous question was that not all employees got 9 clothing or showers. Some employees did. 10 Q Well, what I'm saying is: I mean, I guess a 11 plant would have a policy that everybody gets clothing 12 and a shower, whether they need it or not. 13 A Well, that would be true in a nuclear power 14 plant, certainly. 15 Q Okay. Well, and -- and it -- I mean, Monsanto 16 could have decreed that for any one of its plants, nad 17 it cnosen to, could it not? 18 A Yes. 19 Q It didn't have a policylike that in the 20 Krummrich plant, did it? 21 A No, sir. 22 0 Okay. 23 Now, were plantmanagerspermitted the 24 discretion to exercise less safety precautions than you 25 felt were necessary to protect tne workmen? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024487 131 1 A Wo, sir. 2 Q So if you had gone to a Monsanto plant and 3 found that a particular safety precaution were necessary 4 to protect Monsanto workmen and the plant manager 5 refused to institute it, you eventually could go bacx 6 tnrough tne cnain of command and force that cnange? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q Were plant managerspermitted tnediscretion to 9 exercise greater safety precautions than you felt were 10 necessary? 11 A They obviously did in the case of tne PCB. 12 Q And that was something they were entitled to 13 do? 14 A Obviously. 15 Q And I take it thatthat'ssomething that lo reasonable people, the level of precaution necessary -- 17 18 (Reporter's Note: At this point, the 19 deposition was interrupted by a telepnone 20 call) 21 22 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN: We're off the 23 record for a moment. 24 25 (Discussion off tne record, and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024488 132 1 recess) 2 3 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN: Okay. We've 4 been off the record for about 15 minutes. 5 We're back on the record now. The time is 6 2:53 p.m. 7 BY MR. LACEY: 8 Q I -- I think at the time the -- the phone rang 9 and interrupted us, we were talking about the ability of 10 a plant manager to institute more stringent safety 11 precautions for a particular operation within the plant 12 that he was over than was required by the Medical 13 Department. 14 A That's right, sir. 15 2 And -- and that is something a plant manager 16 was free to do. 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q And I guess that's a -- anindication of the 19 fact that people can disagree about what level of 20 precautions are needed for a particular operation. 21 Correct? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q And the way Monsanto arranged thesituation 24 was: Whoever nad the most stringent precautions, those 25 were the precautions that were used. Correct? NELL MC CALLUM 8. ASSOCIATES, INC. _ WATER" PCB-SD0000024489 133 1 A In that plant, yes, sir. 2 Q Well, for example, if there were a plant 3 manager who wanted less stringent precautions than you 4 would require, your precautions would prevail over tne 5 less stringent. 6 A Oh, yes, sir. 7 Q And if there were somebody who wanted more 8 stringent precautions tnan you required, those more 9 stringent precautions would prevail. Correct? 10 A Yes, sir. * 11 Q So the net of it is that the most stringent 12 precautions were the ones that were applied in any 13 particular plant. Correct? 14 A It was in tne case of the Krummricn plant 15 and -- and the Anniston plant and in terms of PCBs. 16 Q And the fact tnat you and the plant manager at 17 Anniston agreed on less stringent precautions than you 18 and the plant manager at Krummrich agreed upon just 19 simply indicated that reasonable people could disagree 20 about what level of precautions were required. Correct? 21 A I couldn't express it better myself, sir. 22 Q Okay. 23 A Tne wording in -- in the -- we referred to the 24 operating document. We get back to the definition of 25 the word "toxic." NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024490 134 1 And for whatever reason -- I don't know -- the 2 plant manager, I think, decided at the Krummrich plant 3 that this was going to be designated a toxic departmenc, 4 and in the other departments justifiably so designated, 5 got the changes of clotning, et cetera, prevailed, we 6 were never asked if we thought tnat the materials in the 7 PCB operation deserved the designation of -- of toxic," 8 as we in industry would in general use it. 9 Q Anything furtner you want to add? 10 A I don't think so. 11 Q Is -- is that last comment something that you 12 and Mr. Shoebotham discussed while we were on break? 13 A 14o, sir. No, sir. 14 Q I see. 15 A It -- it's -- it's -- it's something that has 16 bothered me, I think, all my working life. We discussed 17 this morning the difference between safety and 18 industrial hygiene, so the -- the use of the word 19 "toxic* varies. 20 I assume tnat your wife probably uses chlorine 21 bleach, without using a trade name. Well, chlorine 22 oleach nappens to nave available chlorine in it to the 23 extent of 5 percent, and that's a poison. Your wife 24 wouldn't ouy it if it had the skull and crossbones on 25 it, and practice has indicated that it doesn't have to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, tNC. WATER PCB-SD0000024491 135 1 be designated a chlorine -- it doesn't have to be 2 designated a poison, and yet it's a -- it's a harmful, 3 dangerous material. You get a snootful of it, and you 4 get away from it. 5 The same would be true of the ammonia6 containing compounds for cleaning windows. You get a 7 snootful of tnat, and -- and you kind of turn your head 8 and take a breath of fresh air. 9 So, again, maybe to some people this -- these 10 are, quote, "toxic." 11 Q You're talking about "these." You mean PCEs. 12 A I'm talking about tne ammonia and the -- 13 Q Oh, okay. 14 A -- and the chlorine -- 15 Q I see. 16 A -- situation. 17 Q Okay. 18 A And -- and yet if they were overlabeled, the 19 products which are very, very useful, if not necessary, 20 would -- would never be used. 21 Q Of course, we read from time to time about 22 tragic incidents involving things lixe household ammonia 23 and household bleach, don't we? 24 A I don't think so mucn household bleach. But 25 just recently there have been some injuries from an -- a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024492 136 1 refrigerating system, a refrigerator system containing 2 ammonia that ruptured and caused injuries, if not deatn. 3 Q And while, quote, "overlabeling,* close quote, 4 as you used the word, might deter some people from 5 buying the product, it also tends to reduce the C likelihood of those tragic incidents, doesn't it? 7 A Well, I would assume that the ammonia as used 8 in a refrigeration unit was probably classified as a 9 poison, because it was full strength; whereas, the usage 10 that you and 1 are accustomed to, it is not. 11 So it's the concentration leading to the 12 exposure that's important, as well as the -- the -- the 13 chemical and physiological characteristics of the active 14 ingredient. 15 Q Well, let me come back, and we'll just follow 16 up a little bit on what you had to say, though. 17 Let's talk about household bleach and household 18 ammonia. You've told me those things don't have warning 19 labels of the type that could appropriately be applied 20 to them saying they're toxic. Correct? 21 A I don't know that, again, the word "toxic" is 22 correct. The fact is that they do have a physiologic 23 effect that -- that's -- is possible. A chlorine bleach 24 solution can -- can cause a pretty severe skin rasn, 25 Q Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024493 137 1 A And if you get it in the eye -- and the same 2 with the -- the ammonia solution -- you've got a pretty 3 painful, but not a sight-destroying, injury, as you 4 would with the chemical itself. 5 Q And what you indicated to me was if you nad on 6 these types of products warning signs that they're 7 toxic, you think people would be less likely to buy 8 them. Correct? 9 A I believe that's true. 10 Q Yes. And what I'm asking you is whether, by 11 the same token, if you had those types of warnings on 12 them, people who did nevertheless buy tnem would be more 13 likely to handle them more carefully. 14 A I'm not sure that's correct; oecause, again, we 15 get to the human experience where, in general, there 16 aren't that many problems that arise in tne general use 17 by millions of people in the two products we've just 18 mentioned. 19 Q Even setting aside whetner there are problems 20 or not, can't you agree with me if those products 21 carried labels saying that they were toxic, while tnere 22 mignt be fewer people buying tnem, those who bougnt them 23 would be more careful with them? 24 A I'm not sure that's true. 25 Q You don't think a -- a label warning about tne NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024494 138 1 toxicity of a product is likely to be effective, then. 2 Is that correct? 3 HR. SH0E30THAM: Well, for the ~ 4 to begin with, that's not what Mr. Wheeler 5 said. Hr. Wheeler said they don't carry 6 the skull and crossbones. He didn't say 7 there was no warning on the product. 8 BY HR. LACEY : * 9 Q Well, let's -- let's go back. 10 And what I thought you first told me was, 11 Mr. Wheeler, that household ammonia and household bleach 12 contain chemicals that could certainly be called toxic. 13 A In their full strength, that's right, sir. 14 Q And you told me that those products don't 15 contain on them labels saying that the chemicals are 16 toxic. 17 A I do not believe the labels use the word 10 "toxic.* 19 Q Yes. 20 A I may be wrong on that, sir. 21 Q Okay. But let's just assume for the moment 22 you're right, for the purpose of our discussion. 23 You also told me that you thought if the labels 24 said on them tnat tne products were toxic, fewer people 25 would buy those products. Correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024495 139 1 A There would be some that would not buy tnem. 2 0 Okay. And my question to you is: Don't you 3 also think that if the labels said that they were toxic, 4 that those people who did buy them would be more careful 5 with them? 6 A Not necessarily. 7 Q Okay. So you do not believe that labeling a 8 product "toxic" has any effect on the caution that 9 people use around it? 10 A In the public area. We are talking now about 11 home consumer items. 12 Q And you don't believe tnat consumers, when 13 faced with a label saying that this is a toxic product, 14 will oe any more careful with it than if it doesn't say 15 that. Is that your opinion? 16 A I think that's quite likely. 17 Q Okay. 18 By the way, can you recall the names of the 19 people who were the plant managers of the Anniston, 20 Alabama, plant while you were an industrial hygienist at 21 Monsanto ? 22 A I remember Des Hosman was plant manager at one 23 time at Anniston. Bill Papageorge. 24 I guess Joe Crease was at Krummrich. 25 Q Well,I'm just doing Anniston right now. Let NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024496 140 1 me just get Anniston first. 2 Now I'm asking you: Who were the plant 3 managers that you recall being at Anniston when you were 4 with Monsanto? 5 A I have to say tne two most recent ones, because 6 those are the ones I recall, I -- I believe that was 7 Papageorge, preceded by Des Hosman, 8 Q When was Mr, Papageorge last the plant manager 9 at the Anniston, Alabama, plant? 10 A I think at the end of December of '69, 11 Q His tenure was from roughly 1965 through 1969? 12 A I can't recall when he was assigned plant 13 manager. 14 Q During the time that Mr, Papageorge was the 15 plant manager at the Anniston, Alabama, plant, did he 16 ever indicate to you in any way that he would like to 17 upgrade the protection for Monsanto's PC3 workers at 18 that plant to be equal to that provided at the Illinois 19 plane? 20 A Not to my recollection, 21 Q Had he recommended that, would you have kept 22 him from doing that? 23 A I would not have kept him from doing it, I 24 would not have recommended that he do it, 25 Q Okay. But he would have been free to, had ne NELL MC CALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024497 141 1 chosen to -- 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q -- nave provided the same protections to the 4 PCS workers in Anniston, Alabama, as were provided to 5 the PCS workers -- 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q -- in Illinois? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q Okay. 10 Now, can you tell me the names of the plant 11 managers of the Krummricn plant in Illinois? 12 A I'm -- I'm ashamed to say I -- I draw a blank. 13 I believe Des Hosman may have -- may have gone tnere 14 from Anniston, or pernaps not. 15 A gentleman named Joe Crease, who would have 16 been at the Nitro, West Virginia, plant, was plant 17 manager. 18 Q Mr. Crease was -- what about Nitro, West 19 Virginia? 20 A He had been the plant manager at Nitro, West 21 Virginia, and moved up to the plant manager of 22 Krummrich -- 23 Q Okay. 24 A -- the Nitro plant being a smaller plant, and 25 nis being, I assume, promoted to plant manager of a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024498 142 1 larger plant. 2 Q Was it normally the situation where managing a 3 larger plant was more prestigious and a promotion over 4 managing a smaller plant? 5 A I don't know about prestigious. 6 Q Well# was it a promotion within the company? 7 A I would expect that it would have been a 8 promotion within the company? yes# sir. 9 Q Was that generally your experience and what you 10 saw while you were going out to plants; that people 11 moved from the smaller ones to the bigger ones? 12 A Yes# sir, 13 Q How did the Krummrich plant compare in size to 14 plants within the Monsanto system? 15 A Well, it varied over the history of my being 15 there. 17 Until we built the nylon plant in Pensacola, 1 8 Florida, I think our largest plant was in Springfield, 19 Massacnusetts. 20 The second-largest was at South 2nd Street in 21 St. Louis, the Queeney plant. 22 X think the Krummrich plant was probably tnird. 23 Q Is it fair to say that during your tenure at 24 Monsanto, the Krummrich plant was always one of the five 25 largest plants Monsanto had? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024499 143 1 A I believe that's correct. 2 Q And as such, it would have always had one of 3 the more experienced plant managers in charge of it? 4 A I think so. 5 Q Okay. Typically, a plant like the Krumarich 6 plant would have a more experienced plane manager than a 7 plant like the Anniston, Alabama, plant? 8 A I believe that's correct. 9 Q And a more experienced plant manager might be 10 more perceptive to the health hazards to his workers 11 than a less experienced plant manager. Wouldn't you 12 agree ? 13 A No, sir. 14 Q You don't think so? 15 A No, sir. 16 Q I see. Experience with regard to managing a 17 plant doesn't have much impact on a person's ability to 18 perceive health hazards? 19 A I didn't say that, sir. 20 Q Well -- f % 21 A I don't think it's necessarily true that the 22 plant manager at the smaller plant isn't just as 23 perceptive, interested, involved, responsible for the 24 well-being of his workers as the manager at a large 25 pi ant. __________________________________________________________________________________ NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024500 144 1 Q Well, is it typically true that the manager of 2 a large plant is more experienced in plant management 3 and more experienced, at least, in looking for those 4 sort of problems? 5 A I didn't hear the last part of your -- 6 Q Tnat -- is it true that the manager of a large 7 plant is typically more experienced in plant management 6 and more experienced in looking for problems that could 9 adversely affect the workers at the plant? 10 A I would agree with the first part of your 11 question. 12 Q What about the second part? 13 A Would you rephrase it? 14 Q Yes. Would you agree with me that typically, 15 the plant manager at a larger plant would have more 16 experience in looking for problems that might adversely 17 affect the workers at his plant than the plant manager 18 of a smaller plant? 19 A Only because he had more operating units and 20 more diverse chemical operations. 21 Q Well, wouldn't he typically also have more 22 experience in plant management because he's moved up 23 through the ranks? 24 A Soon after he became the plant manager of the 25 larger plant, I would say yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024501 145 1 Q Okay. And the plant manager certainly did have 2 a responsibility to look out for the health and safety -3s of the workmen at the plant, did he not? 4 A Again, I'm sorry. Did you say, *to look out 5 f or " ? 6 Q Yes. 7 A Absolutely. I feel quite sure tnat nis -- the 8 evaluation of his performance was based in part on tne 9 safe and health -- safety and health records of tne 10 people that were under his supervision. A1 X1 Q Let me go back and talk a little bit about this 12 business of what one says about a product; whether one 13 calls it toxic, and so on and so forth. 14 To wnat extent were you involveo in making 15 decisions for Monsanto or making recommendations at 16 Monsanto about what to say to customers about the 17 products that Monsanto produced? 18 A Eventually, I corresponded with many, many 15 customers about tne -- in -- in response to inquiries 20 about tne safe handling and use of Monsanto products, 21 normally -- I think perhaps without exception -- not 22 unless I was convinced that I was expressing Dr. Kelly's 23 views on the toxicity data and what he agreed were the 24 recommendations for -- that should be forwarded. 25 Q Do I understand that while you -- you NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024502 146 1 corresponded, you were always trying to correspond not 2 what you necessarily thought, but what Dr. Kelly 3 tnought? 4 A No, sir; what we agreed should be the response. 5 As you've indicated, we were a small office; 6 and for many, many years we each reviewed the other's 7 correspondence, unless it was personal. And if there 8 were questions that I felt I couldn't answer because of 9 previous discussions witn Dr. Kelly and answers to 10 previous questions that he'd answered, then I discussed 11 with him what the appropriate answer would be. 12 Q Let me try to understand the various ways in 13 which Monsanto got information to its customers about 14 the products that Monsanto manufactured and sold. 15 I take it one way would be through personal 16 correspondence. 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q Was that typically true when the customer 19 called you, or did you also go out and actually make 20 calls on customers for the purpose of conveying to them 21 information about the products that you sold? 22 A Of -- of conveying to them? Is that -- 23 Q Information about the products that Monsanto 24 sold. In other words, I guess I'm asking -- I 25 understand that sometimes a customer would call and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024503 147 1 be directed to you and ask for information on a product, 2 and you would answer it. 3 A That's correct. 4 Q My question is: Would you ever just, without 5 the customer calling, call a customer and talk to tnem 6 about the safe handling of a product? 7 A I can't recall of it in tne absence of an 8 inquiry. 9 Q Okay. So one way that information would be 10 communicated to a customer of Monsanto aoout the safe 11 handling and hazards of a Monsanto product would be if 12 the customer called Monsanto and asked for information. 13 A Tnat was one way, sir. 14 Q Okay. And if they called Monsanto and asked 15 for information, they would be directed to the Medical 16 Department. Correct? 17 A In most cases, yes, sir. 18 Q Well, was that what the directions were; tnat 19 they were to be directed to the Medical Department? 20 A I believe, witnout exception. 21 Q In -- in fact, isn't that a requirement that 22 Dr. Kelly had sought and was successful in getting, a 23 directive from the company that questions about the safe 24 handling and nazards of products had to be directed to 25 tne Medical Department? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024504 146 1 A I believe that's right. 2 Q Okay. It was not the desire of Dr. Kelly that 3 people be asking for information about safe handling 4 from people like plant managers, for example? 3 A That's correct. 6 Q Okay. I guess one reason that that would be 7 important is because one might get conflicting 8 information from plant managers. 9 A Excuse me. Again -- I've got the burps today. 10 Excuse me. 11 Again, because of differences in definitions, 12 it -- it appeared logical and necessary to nave one 13 department using the terminology that was common in the 14 field of -- of toxicology and medical practice wnere 15 the -- there was a common understanding of what was 16 being said. 17 Q Well, it was also important that there only be 18 one answer from Monsanto, wasn't there? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q I mean, it would be a bit emoarrassing, 21 wouldn't it, if the customer could go to the plant 22 managers tnat made the product and the customer called 23 up and said, "What precautions are necessary for our 24 workers working with PCBs?" 25 And one customer was rung through to tne NELL MC CALLLIM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024505 149 1 Anniston, Alabama, plant manager; and he said, "Not too 2 many precautions. Don't worry aoout it." 3 "Do you need special clothes?" 4 "No. " 5 "Do you need to provide batns at the end of the 6 shift?" 7 "No. " 8 And another customer called and was directed to 9 the Krummrich plant and was told, "Do you need special 10 clothing?" 11 He said, "Yes." 12 "Do you need to provide showers at the end of 13 the shift?" 14 "Yes." 15 I mean, that would create a little bit of a 16 problem, wouldn't it? 17 A Well, yes. 18 Q And you wanted to have a situation wnere at 19 least every customer got the same information? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And the net result of that is that customers 22 weren't told, in tne case of PC3s, for example, that one 23 of Monsanto's plants gave special clothing to the 24 workers in tnat department. Isn't tnat right? 25 A I believe that'sright. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024506 150 1 Q Customers weren't told that in one of the 2 Monsanto plants producing PCBs, that workers were given 3 20 minutes of paid time to take a snower at the end of 4 each shift. Isn't that correct? 5 A I believe so. 6 Q In fact, customers weren't told anything about 7 the precautions taken at the Krummrich plant to protect 0 workmen from the hazards of PCBs. Isn't that correct? 9 A I don't agree. 10 Q What were customers told about the steps taken 11 at Krummrich to protect Monsanto workers from the 12 hazards of PC3s? 13 A They were told the Medical Department 14 recommendations for tne handling, which was typical of 15 Anniston; also typical at the Krummrich plant, but, as 16 you've indicated, was supplemented at the Krummrich 17 plant. 18 Q So a customer who called the Medical Department 19 and asked about tne safe-handling procedures for PCBs 20 would be told about the procedures that were applied at 21 Anniston, but not told aoout tne supplements to those 22 procedures applied at Krummricn. Correct? 23 A That's right. 24 Q Okay. 25 If a customer had called and asked for tne NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024507 151 1 right to tour a plant where PC3s were produced in order 2 to learn more about their hazards and how they were 3 handled by Monsanto, which plant would they be sent to 4 for a tour? 5 A Tnat's a hypothetical question. I -- I -- 6 I don't know. 7 Q Well, would it be logical tney would be sene to 8 tne plant closest to them? 9 A I can't answer that. 10 Q Were there ever any situations that you're 11 aware of where customers called and asked to tour a 12 Monsanto plant so they could learn more about toxicology 13 and safe handling? 14 A Not tnat I'maware of. 15 Q I see. 16 Would you tnink it appropriate, if a customer 17 did contact Monsanto and ask for information about how 18 Monsanto handled the products, that they be told that 19 there was a difference of opinion within Monsanto about 20 what was needed for safe handling? 21 Mil. SHOEBOTHAM: Let me object to tne 22 form of the question to the extent it 23 assumes that there was some difference of 24 opinion within Monsanto as to the proper 25 and safe handling of PC3s. I don't NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. ~ _ WATER" PCB-SD0000024508 152 1 believe that nas been Mr. Wheeler's 2 testimony. 3 BY MR. LACEY: 4 Q Well, let me just ask that. 5 Tne very fact that tnere were more precations 6 in Krummrich for PCB workers than there were in 7 Anniston, Alabama, is a witness to the fact that tnere 8 was a difference of opinion in -- among people in 9 Monsanto about the precautions required around PC3s. 10 Isn't that correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Okay. Mow, having established that, if a 13 customer called and asked for information from Monsanto 14 about the safe handling of PCBs and the precautions 15 workers should take around them, would they be told 16 about the difference of opinion within Monsanto 17 concerning the safe handling of PCBs? 18 A Not as it related to the differences and the 19 practices at Krummrich and -- and Anniston. 20 Q And the practices they would be told about were 21 the practices at Anniston, Alabama, and not the 22 practices at Krummrich? 23 A They were tne practices that we thought were 24 adequate to protect the user. 25 Q And by "we," you mean you and Dr. Kelly? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024509 153 1 A And the history of operation at both the plants 2 with no difficulties; essentially no difficulties. 3 Q Well, but the "we" that made the decision on 4 wnat to tell them was you and Dr. Kelly? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q And what you decided to tell them about was 7 what was applied in Anniston, Alabama, not what was 6 applied in Krumiaricn? 9 A That's right. 10 Q Okay. 11 Now, tne first area, then, of communication 12 with a customer could be if a customer called, he was 13 directed to the Medical Department, and you or Dr. Kelly 14 answered his questions. Correct? 15 A I don't think so, sir. 16 Q Well -- 17 A I think the first information that went to the 18 customer was in the Technical Bulletins. 19 Q Okay. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to indicate 20 that was the first information. I -- that was one route 21 of inquiry, and that's the first one we've discussed. 22 A Yes. Well, you didn't discuss it, I don't 23 think, sir. We hadn't mentioned that -- the Technical 24 Bulletins contained information that was sent to all 25 customer s. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024510 154 1 Q Yes. Let me -- let me go back. 2 Tiiere are several ways in which information can 3 get between Monsanto and the customer about the safe 4 handling of a product. 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q One way is for the customer to call Monsanto 7 and communicate with the Medical Department. 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q And we've talked about that way? 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q Okay. Tnere are other ways? 12 A You said "call." It could be a call or 13 letters. 14 Q Okay. 15 A Yes. The contact was there. 16 Q Tne contact. And it could be tnrough a phone 17 call or through a letter. 18 A To tne Medical Department, 19 Q And the response might either be by a return 20 phone call, or a phone call in response to a letter; or 21 it might be a written response, a letter in response. 22 Correct ? 23 A Possibly. In most cases, a telephone call and 24 followed by a letter. 25 Q Okay. Now, having discussed that means of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024511 155 1 communication, I want to talk about the other means or 2 communication by which customers could get from Monsanto 3 information about the hazards and safe handling of 4 Monsanto products. 5 You mentioned Technical Bulletins. What do you 6 mean by a Technical Bulletin? 7 A Well, for -- I don't know what exceptions tnere 8 might have been. But, certainly, for most of tne 9 Monsanto products and certainly the PCBs, there were 10 Tecnnical Bulletins that described their physical and 11 chemical characteristics; proposed applications; I think 12 in all cases a -- a paragraph or some information 13 including precautionary warnings for safe handling; 14 container sizes. . 15 If it were for one application, it would have 16 the engineering data for that application, as compared 17 to another. A bulletin for the use of plastic ~ for 18 PCBs in plasticizers would be quite different than a IS bulletin for dielectric uses. 20 Q Okay. And what was done with tnose bulletins? 21 Bow was the information then conveyed to customers? 22 A Tnrouyh two general aetnods, I believe. 23 Q How was tnat? 24 A One would be by our development personnel; and 25 secondly, more on a continuing basis, by the sales NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024512 156 1 pereonnel. 2 Q Okay. Let's go back and try to understand eacn 3 one of those. 4 And first, let me start witn the development 5 personnel. What do you mean when you say "development 6 personnel"? 7 A We had essentially three groups within a 8 product line. 9 One was engaged in researcn, developing new 10 materials, developing new uses for materials. 11 If the product looked like it had promise, then 12 it was turned over; ana, in conjunction with marketing 13 development people or product development people, the 14 potential customers were contacted, ana this new proauct 15 or new formulation was discussed. 16 And eventually it ended up in the hands of tne 17 marketing personnel. 18 Q And when you say "marketing," is -- tnose are 19 the same as saying "sales personnel"? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. So it's -- if I understand correctly, 22 then, when you have a new product or a new use for an 23 existing product, people who were in the development 24 area would go out and talk to potential customers to try 25 to get them interested in tne product. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024513 157 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q And tnese development personnel would have the 3 initial technical materials on tnat proposed use or on 4 that new product? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q And those technicalmaterials would include 7 something about toxicology and safe handling? 8 A Tnat's correct. 9 Q Then, assuming that development area was 10 successful and you -- you -- you, in fact, got a 11 customer, the salespeople would periodically call on 12 tnat customer? 13 A Yes, and tne bulletins were updated to include 14 any additional information. And I -- I -- any new 15 information or any revision of the data or comments, 16 these were used by tne sales force for a number of 17 reasons, one of whicn might well be to just maintain the 18 contact with the engineering-manufacturing people at tne 19 customer's office, and get beyond tne purchasing agent 20 to someone that could understand the potential uses ana 21 problems with the product. 22 Q Are you saying tnat basically the Technical 23 Bulletin gave -- gave an excuse to get beyond the 24 purchasing agent to somebody that they could more easily 25 communicate with? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024514 153 1 A That would more -- more easily understand the 2 projected use of the material or the problems associated 3 with the use of the material. 4 Q Well, what other reasons were there that these 5 sales people used these Technical Bulletins? 6 A Well, I -- I find it hard to -- find it hard to 7 say. 8 Q Well, if you're not aware of any, that's fine. 9 I-- 10 A I -- I don't know. You've -- you've left out 11 one line of communication that was an important one, 12 though. And that was, not infrequently, if the customer 13 had questions, ne'd call the local sales representative, 14 who in turn would refer tne person making inquiry to us 15 in tne Medical Department if it were related to safety 16 and tox- -- handling -- safety and toxicity -- toxicity 17 and safe-handling information. 18 And that could be -- that suggestion could be 19 acted on by the customer either by phone or, more often, 20 by letter. 21 The response then went back from Monsanto over 22 Dr. Kelly's signature or mine, depending on who composed 23 the letter. 24 And in some instances, the sales representative 25 asked that we would send tne reply to him, although it NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. __________ WATER PCB-SD0000024515 159 1 was directed to John Doe, ABC Company; because it again 2 gave him an excuse to -- to make a personal call on tne 3 customer. m 4 And thank God for the American industrial 5 system. This is one approach to reach your customers. 6 Q The old cartoon of tne salesman with his foot 7 in the door is still true in -- in beyond door-to-door 8 sales? 9 A I think so, sir. 10 Q Now, in terms of these Technical Bulletins -- 11 and is that the correct thing to call these things? Is 12 that a good way to refer to them when we talk about 13 Technical Bulletins? 14 A I -- that's the way I think I would descrioe 15 them, yes. 16 Q Okay. 17 A There may have been others that were different. 18 But -- but Technical Bulletin was born, which did pretty 19 much what I've tried to describe for you, 20 Q Okay. Well, we'll -- I'll use the term 21 Technical Bulletin," then. 22 In these Technical Bulletins, who prepared tne 23 information on toxicology and safe handling that went 24 into them? 25 A It was either prepared by us in the Hedical NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024516 160 1 Department, or it was -- the ultimate form of it was 2 approved by the Medical Department. 3 Q Okay. So that information, like any response 4 to an inquiry, came from the Medical Department? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q And that essentially meant it came from you and 7 Dr. Kelly. 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q Now, when bulletins were updated, was either 10 the substance or the actual information on toxicology 11 and safe handling from the Medical Department? 12 A The proposed revision was recirculated to us 13 for review of that information; yes, sir. 14 Q So that the way things were designed at 15 Monsanto, nothing went out on toxicology and safe 16 handling in Technical Bulletins without the approval of 17 the Medical Department. 18 A Not to my knowledge. 19 Q Is that correct, to your knowledge? 20 A That's correct, to my knowledge. 21 Q Okay. 22 Mow, you mentioned that there might be updates, 23 and sales personnel might provide updated bulletins, and 24 that could be a way to get the foot in the door. To 25 wnom did these bulletins go? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024517 161 1 A When delivered by the sales representatives? 2 Q Yes. 3 A Well, as I indicated, I -- I think there was 4 always an attempt to get beyond the purchasing agent and 5 get to people who understood the potential use of the 6 material. 1 Q Were they designed for -- for what I'll call 8 white-collar employees of the customer? 9 A Professional scientific or engineering 10 personnel, I would say, yes; although in many cases the 11 supervisory people may well have been blue-collar people 12 with years and years of experience. 13 Q I understand. They weren't designed, however, 14 that the salesman would bring enough of those Technical 15 Bulletins to pass out one to each employee in the plant? 16 A No, sir. 17 Q Was there some mechanism by which people got on 18 a mailing list and got each update of the Technical 19 Bulletin? 20 A Not through theMedical Department. 21 Q Okay. And whether the salesmen did that or 22 not, you don't know? 23 A I don't know. 24 Q Okay. 25 Now, having discussed Technical Bulletins, NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024518 162 1 were there other ways in which Monsanto attempted to 2 communicate with customers about the safe handling and 3 the dangers of the products it made? 4 A In response to inquiry. The -- the -- there 5 were no efforts that I recall where we initiated the 6 dissemination of information. 7 Q Well, I guess I`m trying to find out about 8 tnings like warning labels. Did the Medical Department 9 have anything to do with product labels that went on 10 containers -- 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q -- or anything like that? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q Whac was the Medical Departmentinvolvement in 15 product labeling? 16 A Approval of the precautionary statement that 17 was on the label that referred to safe handling. 18 Q And, again, that approval came from either you 19 or Dr. Kelly or the two of you together? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q And when we're talking aboutproduct labels, 22 we're talking about if the tning went out in a 55-gallon 23 drum, there would be some thing on the outside of tne 24 drum that said, "This contains" whatever the prociuct is. 25 Correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024519 163 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q And then also if the Medical Department had 3 determined there ought to be some statement about safe 4 handling or warning, it would have whatever you had 5 determined should be on there? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q Did you have a product laoel for eaca type of 8 product and each type of container in which that product 9 was shipped? 10 A Did we have a copy of it? 11 Q No, no, no. Did you -- did you have something 12 designed to tell about safe handling and precautions for 13 each product that Monsanto shipped out and for each type 14 of container in which it was shipped out? 15 A Well, we had -- we -- we had the appropriate 16 wording for each product. And as far as I Know, that 17 went on the label for that product, whether it was 18 shipped in a small container or a 55-gallon drum. 19 Q Okay. 20 A Is that your question? 21 Q Yes. That's really what I'm getting at. 22 absolutely. 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q Some products were shipped out in bulk by 25 Monsanto -- and by "bulk," I mean by railroad car NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024520 16 4 1 loads -- were they not? 2 A Yes, sir. . 3 Q How did Monsanto handle labeling for things 4 shipped oat in rail car loads? 5 A I'm not sure what the Government and label 6 requirements were. I am certain, however, that 7 customers that were using the materials in that quantity 3 were as experienced, if not more so in some cases, than 9 we were with handling and using the products. 10 Q Well, I'm not so concerned about that as what, 11 if anything, you know about how Monsanto labeled and put 12 on safety precautions on shipments in rail car loads. 13 A I don't know that answer, sir. 14 Q Do you know whether or not there were any 15 labeling with safety precautions that went out on 16 railroad car quantities of chemicals Monsanto produced? 17 A I'm sure there must have been, because I've 18 mentioned the first thing this morning that we labeled 19 our materials in conjunction with Government 20 requirements as to degree of hazard. 21 And I think every tank car that I've ever seen 22 has a -- a little triangular spot on the ~ on --- 23 attached to the tank car that -- where warning labels 24 are applied. Certainly, if tne product is ~ is 25 inflammable or poison, there are provisions for making NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024521 16 5 1 that well-known 2 And I believe tne same is true for any other 3 kind of warning label that was appropriate for the 4 material in that car for the protection of people -- of 5 cleanup if there were a railroad accident and there was 6 a spill. 7 Q Do you know what labels that you and Dr. Kelly 6 approved for use on railroad cars; what they said? 9 A If we approved any specifically for that 10 purpose, they would have been the same as for 55-gallon 11 drum shipments. 12 Q Okay. You wouldn't have had a label that said, 13 "FIaramable"? 14 A No, sir, because they were not flammable. 15 Q You wouldn't have had a laDel that said, 15 "Corrosive"? 17 A No, sir. 18 Q You wouldn't have had a label that said, IS "Acidic"? 20 A "Acidic"? 21 Q Yeah. 22 A I wouldn't think so, sir. 23 Q Would you have had a label that said, 24 "Poisonous *? 25 A Not for PCBs, sir. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024522 166 1 Q Can you think of anything in -- in a one-word 2 caption of a precaution that you would have had on a 3 railroad car label? 4 A Not in one ward. It would be the same 5 statement tnat was on the other labels. If there was a 6 one-word -- if that's what you're referring to, it would 7 be "Caution." It would not have been "Warning* or -- or 8 Danger." 9 Q Okay. 10 Now, Monsanto, vis-a-vis the people to whom it 11 sold PCBs, was the manufacturer of those PCBs. Correct? 12 You didn't buyPCBs from others and then sell them to 13 someone else; you made them. 14 A Not that I'm aware of, sir. 15 Q Okay. So when Monsanto sold PC3s to customers, 16 they were both the manufacturer and the seller of the 17 those chemicals. Correct? 18 A Monsanto was? 19 Q Yes. 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q And can you agree with me that the manufacturer 22 of a chemical should provide an appropriate warning to 23 the customer to whom it sells the chemical -- 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q -- about the hazards and the safe handling? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024523 167 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q And that doesn't matter whether the cuscomer is 3 tne biggest company in the world or the smallest company 4 in the world, does it? 5 A That's right. 5 Q Monsanto ougnt to provide a good, adequate 7 warning to everybody? 8 A Right. 9 Q And it certainly would not be sufficient to 10 say, "Well, tne customer's bigger than we are, so we'll 11 let them figure it out themselves," would it? 12 A Not the wording of the warning, no, sir. 13 Q Okay.That's something that Monsanto would 14 need to deal with. Correct? 15 A The wording in regard to a warning, yes, sir. 16 Q Okay. And, in fact, in the chemical business 17 it's customary for purchasers of chemicals to look to 18 the manufacturer/seller of the chemicals for information 19 aoout the hazards and safe handling, is it not? 20 A Yes, sir, 21 Q Monsanto itself is a purchaser ofchemicals 22 from others, is it not? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And Monsantoexpects those who sells chemicals 25 to it to give them appropriate information about the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024524 168 1 dangers and the safe handling. Correct? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q Even though Monsantoitself is a very large 4 chemical company. Correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Okay. And in a similarfasnion, Monsanto 7 should provide its customers with appropriate warnings 8 about dangers and safe handling, no matter how big the 9 customer is. 10 MR. SH0E3OTHAM: Now, when you say, 11 "No matter how big the -- the customer," 12 do you mean -- are you -- are you -- are 13 you talking about just size, or 14 sophistication of the customer, or -- 15 MR. LACEY: Either one, no matter how 16 sophisticated and big the customer is. 17 A would -- would you rephrase the question? 18 BY MR. LACEY: 19 Q Yes. Can -- 20 A Or repeat it, ratner? 21 Q Surely. Can you agree with me that Monsanto, 22 as a manufacturer/seller of chemicals, should provide 23 its customers to whom it sells those chemicals, no 24 matter how big, no matter how sophisticated those 25 customers are, with appropriate information on the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024525 169 1 hazards and safe handling of the chemicals Monsanto is 2 selling them? 3 A You want -- if -- appropriate for Monsanto to 4 do that? Is that -- 5 Q Yes. 6 A It wasappropriate, andwe did. 7 Q Okay. 8 THE VIDEOTECHHICIAN: Let's go off 9 tne record. 10 11 (Discussion off the record, and 12 recess) 13 14 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAH: Okay. We've 15 been off the record for a short break. 16 We' re now back on the record. The time is 17 4:06 p.m. 18 BY MR. LACEY: 19 Q Just before we broke, Mr. Wneeler, we were 20 talking about the provision by Monsanto to its 21 customers, no matter how sophisticated and no matter how 22 large, information on the products that Monsanto sells 23 to them. In that context, to a certain extent, the more 24 sophisticated the customer, the more information that 25 they can make use of and digest about safe handling and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024526 170 1 toxicity. Isn't that correct? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q For example, if you have a relatively small and 4 unsophisticated customer -- for example, a customer that 5 doesn't have its own group of Medical Department or 6 whatever to provide a great deal of technical 7 information about what studies may have shown about the 8 product -- a bunch of detail about specific air 9 concentrations or specific levels at which problems can 10 be ascertained in technical terms would not be helpful 11 to that customer, because they don't have the technical 12 expertise to digest it. Correct? 13 A Within their companies. 14 Q Yes. 15 A It would be available, perhaps,through their 16 insurance companies and certainly through consultants. 17 Q But internally they wouldn't have that 18 information? 19 A Probably not, no, sir. 20 Q And for that type of company, it may make sense 21 to have instructions that are written more generally in 22 what I'll call plain English will do them more good tnan 23 more technical information. Correct? 24 A I think if it were conveyed by word of mouth by 25 our field representatives, yes. I don't know that tne NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024527 171 1 written correspondence itself would do it alone. A 2 telephone call would be more helpful, or a visit by our 3 salespeople, who are technical -- technically qualified. 4 Q On the other hand, if you have a company that 5 is very sophisticated, they can digest a substantial 6 amount of technical information, and understanding what 7 the hazards of a product may be and what safe handling 8 might be appropriate. Would you agree? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q Now, certain products that Monsanto 11 manufactures and sells go to companies that are 12 generally not necessarily particularly large and 13 sopnisticated. Isn't that correct? 14 A I -- I don't know what proportion of sales 15 would go to those people, nor what the specific 15 applications might be. 17 Q Well, I understand. I'm not trying to even 18 pick out any particular products. But there are certain IS lines of Monsanto products that go generally to smaller, 20 less sophisticated companies. 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q There are other product lines that by tneir 23 nature tend to go to larger and more sophisticated 24 companies. 25 A Yes, sir. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024528 172 1 Q In the case of PCBs, they were a product that 2 went to typically larger, more sophisticated companies. 3 Correct ? 4 A I believe that's correct. 5 Q The very nature of these chemicals were 6 commercial and industrial-type chemicals. 7 A That's correct. 8 Q They weren't intended -- youwouldn't buy a 9 bottle as a -- to use in waxing the floor at home, for 10 exam pi e. 11 A Not to our knowledge. 12 Q Yes. That wasn't the purpose of it. 13 And my question, then, or my -- my real inquiry 14 to you is: Given the fact that the PCBs were sold to 15 the more sophisticated, larger customers generally, that 16 would then suggest the importance of conveying as much 17 technically detailed information as possible to those 18 customers so they could properly evaluate the hazards 19 and safe handling appropriate for PC3. Correct? 20 A They had the access to not only information 21 that we provided, but their people were following the 22 literature appropriate to the safe handling of all of 23 their raw materials, including the polychlorinated 24 biphenyls. And -- 25 Q How do you know that? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024529 173 1 A Well, I think -- 2 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Let's let -- let's 3 let tne witness finish his answer before 4 we have follow-up questions. 5 MR. LACEY: I'm sorry. 6 A Well, I had a great deal of respect -- I knew 7 most of those people personally, and I had a great deal 8 of respect for their ability and their integrity and 9 their interests as sincere as mine in promoting tne 10 healtn and welfare of their employees. 11 BY MR. LACEY: 12 Q What -- 13 A And -- 14 Q I'm sorry. 15 A And then, I think, to continue to answer your 16 question -- 17 Q Uh-huh. 18 A -- they were better qualified than we to decide 19 how to prescribe the operating procedures or their 20 plants to accomplish what we recommended. 21 Q That's your answer? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q Okay. Let me go back and try to understand 24 some of tnis. 2 5 First, I want to ask my question again and get NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024530 174 1 an answer to that, because I don't think your answer was 2 responsive. And my question was: Since PCBs were sold 3 to larger, sophisticated companies, the literature and 4 information supplied by Monsanto for PCBs could be more 5 technically detailed than it could be with products that 6 went to less sopnisticated companies. Correct? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q Okay; because these companies had the ability S to digest and understand technically detailed 10 information. Rignt? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Nov/, you believe that thecompanies to whom 13 PCBs were sold were, on tneir own, monitoring the 14 literature aDOUt PCBs. Correct? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q To whom did you talk and confirm that? And I 17 want the names of the companies that you confirmed were 18 following tne literature on PCBs, and the names of tne 19 people in those companies that you talked to. 20 A Well, the specific one that comes to mind was 21 Mr. Wilbur Spiker, Senior Industrial Hygienist for 22 Westinghouse Electric. 23 Q Who else? 24 A His counterpart. Jack Perry, atGeneral 25 Electric. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024531 175 1 Q Who else? 2 A Their counterparts and my counterparts in -- at 3 Ford and General Motors were very, very good friends of 4 mine; and yet l can't assure you, sir, that they were 5 following tne literature as closely as we were, or the 6 electrical companies. 7 Q What about the Tennessee Valley Authority? 8 A I would believe the Tennessee Valley Authority, 9 being a -- at least a quasi-Governmental agency, had 10 libraries equivalent to ours. 11 Q You're just guessing about that, aren't you? 12 A I'm guessing. I shouldn't speculate, sir. 13 Q Okay. What I want to know is the companies 14 tnat you talked to people and inquired of them whether 15 they were following the literature to the same extent 15 that Monsanto was. 17 A On PC3s? 18 Q Yes. 19 A I mentioned that I was sure that Spiker and 20 Ferry were. Not because did I ask them, "Jack,* or -- 21 or -- or, "Wilbur, are you daily looking for references 22 to PCS?" -- 23 Q Uh-huh. 24 A -- out the fact that they made frequent 25 inquiries to me, especially if there had been a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024532 176 1 publication, or even, in the later years, news stories 2 because of the environmental problem. They would ask me 3 for my opinion and for any data that I had, any new 4 data, and -- and my thoughts as to what I thought or 5 what -- what answer I might have to any questions that 6 they asked. 7 Q So they were still looking to you as an 8 employee of Monsanto for information about PCBs? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q Mow, was there somebody at Ford with wnom you 11 talked on the same way? 12 A Mot in that sense, no. I had, 1 believe, some 13 correspondence from -- from Ford that I responded to; 14 and this one indication in one piece of literature we 15 reviewed this weekend that Vince Castrap, the head 16 hygienist at General Motors, and I think Jack 17 Radcliff -- I can't recall the names of the others, but 18 they were all senior industrial hygienists in our 19 customers' plants -- and it wouldn't have been in the 20 file of -- that I was looking through if it didn't 21 relate to PCBs. 22 Q Well, I'm talking about PCBs now, 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q I'm talking about following the literature on 25 PCBs. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024533 177 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q Did you look at that correspondence back and 3 forth with Ford? Did Mr. Shoebotham show you that 4 correspondence? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q One of the things Frod askedabout was the 7 cnemical composition -- they were asking about Pydraul 8 hydraulic fluid, were they not? 9 A Yes, sir. I believe that's correct, sir. 10 Q And one of the things they wanted to know: 11 What chemicals made it up. Isn't that correct? 12 A I believe so. 13 Q And, of course, tnat would oerelevant 14 information in trying to evaluate the safe handling and 15 toxicity of any product, would it not? 16 A Not necessarily, if there were data on the 17 combined product. 18 Q But if you as a sophisticated company wanted to 19 make your own evaluation about toxicity and safe 20 handling and not rely on what the manufacturer said, one 21 of the things you'd want to know is what made it up. 22 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: He just answered 23 that question. He told you, not if there 24 was information available as to the final 25 product. NELL MC CALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024534 178 i MR. LACEY: He did not answer the 2 question. 3 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Well, he did. 4 BY MR, LACEY: 5 Q You need to answer my last question. 6 A Well, would you repeat it? 7 Q Yes. If you are a sophisticated company. 8 trying to make your own evaluation of the dangers, the 9 toxicity, the safe-handling practices for a chemical 10 that you're buying, one of the pieces of information 11 that you would want to have and, in fact, need to have 12 to make a fully informed decision would be the chemical 13 composition of the product. Isn't that correct? 14 A Not in -- in your total question. 15 Q Okay. You don't agree with that? 16 A May I try to answer it in part -- 17 Q Would you -- 18 A -- or would you rather rephrase it? 19 Q Well, you can explain why you don't agree with 20 it. 21 A Well, I -- I made the earlier comment that I 22 think that more important is data on the product itself, 23 because then you're getting any indication of 24 synergistic action between tne components. 25 I would agree that it would be helpful for my NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC, WATER PCB-SD0000024535 179 1 basic knowledge if I knew the exact composition. I 2 recognize, however, as most of the people in the field 3 do, that there are situations where -- where the patents 4 do not allow disclosure -- the complete disclosure of 5 formulations. And as long as I was informed of what -- 6 of -- the major component was that might cause problems, 7 that would satisfy me. 8 a The fact of the matter is. Ford wrote, asking 9 for information; and you or Dr. Kelly responded. 10 Correct? 11 A I am hesitating only because there may be one 12 letter that Mr. Jack -- Mr. Garrett responded to, to 13 Ford. 14 Q Well, let -- let me ask it this way, then: 15 Ford wrote and inquired, and the -- somebody in the 16 Medical Department responded. 17 A Yes. I'm -- I'm trying to be honest with you. 18 Q Sure. On, I understand. I understand. 19 And Ford found that response inadequate and 20 wrote back and said, "We want more information.* Rignt? 21 A I believe I saw that memo. 22 Q And one of the things they wanted to know was 23 the chemical composition of the Pydraul fluid. Isn't 24 that correct? 25 A I believe that's so. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024536 180 1 Q And Monsanto -- 2 A Could I -- do you nave a copy of the memo I 3 could refer to, to refresh my memory? 4 Q Mr, Shoebotham apparently has one and showed it 5 to you, 6 MR, LACEY: Do you want to make it 7 available to him, Jon? 6 HR. SHOEBOTHAM: Well, Hr, Lacey, if 9 you want to ask him questions about it, 10 why don't you show it to him? 11 MR, LACEY: I don't have it here. 12 But you obviously do, 13 BY MR. LACEY: 14 Q And if -- if you feel you want to refer to it, 15 you can ask Mr. Shoebotham for it. 15 A Well, the reason the -- tnat -- that there's a 17 question is -- to my mind is: Who in Ford was asking 18 the question -- 19 Q Okay. Well, ray -- my -- 20 A -- whether it was a supervisor, whether it was 21 it a safety engineer, or -- or what have you. 22 Q I' i really not asking who. My question is 23 not -- just Ford wanted to know the chemical 24 composition, did they not? 25 A I believe that's correct. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024537 181 1 Q And Monsanto never provided it to them, did 2 they? 3 A The exact composition? 4 Q Yes. 5 A I believe that's correct. 5 Q All right. 7 Now, when one follows the literature on a 8 product, you're talking about the published literature, 9 are you not? 10 A Primarily. 11 Q Now, tiiat's not all the information that was 12 available on -- to Monsanto on PCBs, was it? 13 A The other information that we had was based on 14 studies where we had generated data that -- some of 15 which was published and some of which was not puolisned. 16 Q My -- 17 A Secondly -- 18 Q I'm sorry. 19 A -- there are meetings of people in the 20 toxicology field which I used to attend, Gordon Research 21 Conferences, where data would be presented on a -- 22 what's the terra you use? -- off-the-record-type 23 situation. The results were such that they were 24 preliminary in nature. Tney were being presented for 25 evaluation by -- by peers, and might or might not ever NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024538 182 1 be published. 2 I saw a reference to something I think we saw 3 yesterday tnat Dr. Henry Smith, who was one of the 4 grandfathers in the field of toxicology, worked for 5 Carbide and for the Industrial Hygiene Foundation in 6 Pittsburgh. He was awarded the prestigious -- for the 7 American Industrial Hygiene Association, the Cummings 8 Award. 9 And I'd forgotten it, but this memo indicates 10 that he supported the data or agreed with the data that 11 supported the threshold limit values for Aroclor 1254 12 and -- what was it? -- 1242, for example. 13 So there were other than just the straight, 14 formal publications where data might or might not be 15 made available. 16 MR. LACEYj I object to the 17 responsiveness of that answer. 18 BY MR. LACEY: 19 Q Monsanto had available to it dozens to hundreds 20 of studies that it had commissioned on PCBs, did it noc? 21 A Mot hundreds, sir. 22 Q Dozens? 23 A Dozens in terms of acute toxicitystudies; yes, 24 sir. 25 Q And a substantial number of chronic toxicity NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024539 183 1 studies, all of which were started after 1968. Correct? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q Those were not available to Westinghouse or 4 Ford or TVA or any other company, were they? 5 A I believe the correspondence I've seen 6 indicates tnat we sent them summaries of those data ana 7 those reports. 8 But let me point out, sir, these were ingestion 9 studies and related to the potential problem from 10 accidental ingestion of PCBs, not the industrial 11 exposure. 12 Q Well, was there some concern that people were 13 going to be eating these PCBs? 14 A There was some circling around the world, 15 particularly in Sweden -- to a lesser degree, perhaps, 16 in Great Britain -- that the PCBs were getting into tne 17 ecosystem and were getting into fish, and into fish that 18 might eventually end up on the dinner table. 19 Q - So there was concern that people would wind up 20 eating PCBs? 21 A Through unintended -- through the unintended 22 ultimate destination of being in the environment; yes, 23 sir. 24 Q Well, were there any chronic toxicity studies 25 for people who had PCBs exposed to them through their NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024540 184 1 skin? 2 A I think there were; but I can't answer your 3 question "Yes, sir," because I -- I don't recall, and 4 I -- i -- i don't recall the duration of the exposure. 5 Q Were there any chronic toxicity studies for 6 people who were exposed to PC3s through the atmosphere, 7 through the air? 8 A I -- I don't -- would you rephrase that 9 question? 10 Q Yes. Were there studies of the effects of 11 chronic exposure through inhalation of air containing 12 PCBs? 13 A I understood you to say "by people," and -- and 14 certainly not by people. 15 There were chronic inhalation studies done on 16 what? -- 1242, 1254 -- with animals, that work done at 17 the Kettering Laboratories by Dr. Joe Trehan. Tnat was 18 published and was made available in -- in reprint form 19 to anybody tnat ever asked for toxicity and safe 20 handling information on -- on those products. 21 Q These were made available by Monsanto to people 22 who asked for them? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And again, back -- 25 A As well as being -- excuse me -- again, as well NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024541 185 1 as being in the published literature and in libraries. 2 Q Now, let me go back to the question that I 3 initially asked, which is: Monsanto had dozens of 4 studies on PCBs that it had commissioned itself and paid 5 for, and where the results of the studies were sent to 6 Monsanto. Correct? 7 A I -- I -- I -- again, I can't say "dozens," 8 sir, unless you're referring to the acute animal 9 studies. 10 Q I'm referring to all studies on PCBs that 11 Monsanto paid for and had done for it. it had dozens of 12 such studies, both acute and chronic. Correct? 13 A Yes, because there were a dozen different 14 compounds, and there were acute data made available on 15 each of those formulations or compounds. 16 Q And Monsanto received, fromwhomever it 17 commissioned to do those studies, a detailed report of 18 the study, did it not? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q Most of thosestudies were never published, 21 were they? 22 A That's right. 23 Q And Monsanto did not make copies of all or even 24 most of those studies and send it to its customers, did 25 they? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024542 186 1 A I'm sorry. We did, sir. 2 Q You made copies of each one of those studies 3 and sent them to your customers? 4 A Not to each one, but to most of them, sir. 5 Q I see. So, then, Westinghouse would have 6 gotten a copy of every study commissioned by Monsanto on 7 PCBs. Is that your testimony? 8 A That's not correct. 9 Q Well, that's what I thought we were trying to 10 establish. What -- 11 A Because there were PCBs studies that were done 12 on materials that were of no interest to Westinghouse. 13 Q Okay, Westinghouse would have gotten a copy of 14 every private study Monsanto did on any PCB tnat 15 Monsanto thought was of interest to Westinghouse. Is 16 that correct? 17 A On any product that was -- where there was an 18 attempt to introduce it to Westinghouse as a new 19 product. 20 Q Well, let -- let's back up for just a minute. 21 Monsanto had been selling PC3s to Westinghouse 22 long before Monsanto commissioned its first study of 23 either acute or chronic hazards of PCBs, hadn't it? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And what you're telling me is Monsanto did not NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024543 187 1 send copies of the studies it did on products it was 2 already selling to Westingiiouse. Correct? 3 A No, sir, that's not correct. 4 Q Okay. Well, I want to know what it was that 5 Monsanto did by way of sending copies of the acute and 6 chronic studies it did on PC3s to people like 7 Westinghouse. 8 A To iay knowledge, sir, they were sent copies of 9 tne actual data provided by the consultant. 10 Q Who sent tnat? 11 A In most cases. Dr. Kelly and/or I. 12 Q Did you send it with a transmittal letter? 13 A Generally, yes. 14 Q So there would be a record of what was sent to 15 them? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q Okay. 18 A Now, if -- if I may continue, sir. 19 Q You've answered my question. If you have some 20 other comment you want to make on the record, go ahead. 21 MR. SH0E30THAM; Well, I think 22 Mr. Wheeler's indicated that he hasn't 23 finished his answer, Mr. Lacey. 24 Please proceed, Mr. Wheeler. 25 A Including in the dozens of reports that were NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024544 188 1 made or were available to Monsanto, many of them were 2 for PCB-containing materials that were of no interest. 3 They may have referred to adhesive use or plasticizer 4 use or what have you. 5 And many of these were in the late ' 6 0's and 6 early '70's, when Monsanto was trying to find 7 substitutes for the persistent PCBs because of the 3 environmental problem, not because of any occupational 9 health or industrial hygiene problem, 10 BY MR. LACEY: 11 Q Are you through? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q Okay. To whom did you and Dr. Kelly or anyone 14 else in the Medical Department send copies of these 15 studies? 15 A The copies went to the person making tne 17 inquiry. If the inquiry had come to us direct, copies 18 normally did not go to our sales representative in that 19 area. It -- copies would undoubtedly go to the 20 marketing people for PCBs. 21 In a number of instances, if the -- if the 22 inquiry came from a Westinghouse plant, I would send a 23 copy of the reply to Bill Spiker, either indicating in 24 the letter itself or a postscript that the inquiry had 25 come from Mr. So-and-So of his plant at such-and-such a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024545 139 1 location, and I thought he'd be interested in the 2 answer. 3 Q Well, let me try to get very clear what I'm 4 asking about. I understood you to tell me that you sent 5 a copy to Westinghouse -- and we'll just use them as the 6 example right now -- of every study that Monsanto 7 commissioned, both acute and chronic, on any PCB" product 8 of interest to Westinghouse. Is -- is that your Q testimony? 10 A I believe that's correct, sir. 11 Q Okay. Now, was that done only after and if 12 Westinghouse requested copies of that, or was that done 13 immediately when you received those studies? 14 A It wasn't done when we received the -- the 15 data, because at that point we would have no -- would 16 not necessarily have any indication that it was of 17 interest to Westinghouse. 18 Q I see. So it's only when and if they come and 19 asked you for your studies that you would give them to 20 tnem. 21 A That would be tne only way we'd know they had 22 an interest. 23 Q I see. Well, I guess I'm -- I'm coming back to 24 the point we started on. 25 If you have a large, sopnisticated customer for NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024546 190 1 PCBs, they have the ability to digest and understand 2 technical information, don't they? 3 A I believe I testified to that effe,ct; yes, sir. 4 Q And you've also indicated that you thougnt 5 Westinghouse and Mr. Spiker were -- were people in a 6 company that was interested in the safety of taeir 7 workmen. 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q So wouldn't that automatically tell you that 10 they would be interested in these studies? 11 A Mo, sir, because I believe I told you, sir, 12 that of these dozens of studies, many of them were on 13 new formulations in the research phase and carried an 14 "OR" designation, if you will; and you may have seen 15 some of those reports. 16 Others may have been a little farther along, to 17 the point where they had a development designation. And 18 subsequently, if the product developed to be a 19 commercial product, it received some other designation. 20 There would be no reason to send the data on a product 21 in research at that stage. 22 Neither would it be of any particular incerest 23 to Westinghouse if the product, even though containing 24 PCB, was intended to be used in floor tile. Do you 25 understand my difference, sir? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024547 191 1 Q Well, I think I understand what you're saying. 2 Let me try to get very specific. Monsanto commissioned 3 in the late 1950's for the first time chronic toxicity 4 studies on Aroclor 1242, did it not? 5 A And three -- and two others; yes, sir. 6 Q But let's just talk about -- 7 A All right. 8 Q -- Aroclor 1242. 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q That was a chemical that Monsanto sold to 11 Westinghouse in railroad carfuls on a regular basis, 12 wasn't it? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q Now, my question to you is: When you got the 15 report on the chronic toxicity of Aroclor 1242, did you 16 immediately send a copy of that report to Westinghouse? 17 A 1 can't say that I did it immediately, no, sir. 18 Q You sent it to them, if ever, only if they 19 asked for it, didn't you? 20 A I'm not sure that's true, eitner, sir. 21 Q You just don't recall? 22 A I don't recall. 23 Q Certainly, Westinghouse would be interested in 24 the chronic toxicity of Aroclor 1242, wouldn't they? 25 A To some degree, yes, sir. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024548 192 1 Q That's the product they were buying from you in 2 railroad carfuls for use at their capacitor plant in 3 Bloomington, Indiana. 4 A I -- I didn't know that, but -- 5 Q I see. 6 A I -- I didn't know what plant they were using 7 it in, sir. 8 Q You didn't even know what plants of 9 Westinghouse were purchasing the PCB products? 10 A No, sir. 11 Q X see. And -- 12 HR. SH0E30THAM: You're asking him if 13 he -- if he knows as he sits here today, 14 some -- 15 MR. LACEY: Or if he ever knew. 16 HR. SH0EB0T3AM: -- 12 to 15 years 17 later? 18 BY MR. LACEY: 19 Q Did you ever know what plants of Westinghouse 20 were purchasing PCB products from Monsanto? 21 A If I knew, it was only because of an inquiry. 22 Otherwise, my correspondence was with their head 23 industrial hygienist, Wilbur Spiker, who, as far as I 24 was concerned, was responsible for the industrial 25 hygiene problems and safe handling in all of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024549 193 1 Westinghouse plants. 2 Q Where was Mr. Spiker's office located? 3 A In Pittsburgh. 4 Q Okay. 5 Now, I believe at some point youmentioned 6 earlier today that all of your labels met all the 7 Government requirements. Do you recall saying that? 8 A I believe I said that; yes, sir. 9 Q What Government requirements were there, if 10 any, that applied to labeling up to the time that you 11 left Monsanto? 12 A Well, I think I told you this morning, sir, 13 that there were specific wording for labels, depending 14 on the degree of acute toxicity. 15 There obviously were requirements for 16 flammability, corrosiveness, explosibility, none of 17 which applied to the polychlorinated biphenyls. 18 Q Well, I guess that's what I'm getting at. Were 19 there any Government requirements at all that applied to 20 the information you supplied on PCBs? 21 A Yes, sir. That's what I thought I had just 22 explained. I -- I went on, and I shouldn't have, 23 because I added information that wasn't responsive. 24 There was information relating to the potential 25 toxicity hazard. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024550 194 1 Q And I guess I'm trying to find out: Did that 2 have anything to do with Government requirements? 3 A Yes, sir. And I -- I said this morning, I -- 4 I don't recall what the Government agency was. I -- I 5 think it may have been the Bureau of Explosives, but 6 I -- I'd -- I'd be speculating, sir, so I can't testify 7 to that. 8 Q Okay. Well, let me try to sort this out. Are 9 you telling me that if there were requirements to say if 10 it was explosive, you met that, because it's not 11 explosive and therefore you didn't need to say anything 12 about that? 13 .A I think that's correct. 14 Q Okay. Now, what I'm trying to find out is if, 15 during the time you were with Monsanto, there were 16 specific Government labeling requirements on how one was 17 to express information on safe handling and toxicity. 18 A Excuse me. I don't recall if there were -- 19 tnat there had been other requirements developed, otner 20 than the one I referred to. 21 Q Okay. 22 A By the time I left, there may have been such 23 requirements because of the Consumer Act or EPA or 24 something else. And, certainly, in the early '70's we 25 added tne wording relating to the ecological hazard. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024551 195 1 Q Now, in terms of providing information on 2 toxicity and safe handling, those of you in the Medical 3 Department who decided what to say had in your mind what 4 should be done by way of safe handling, and then 5 selected wording which you hoped was designed to cause 6 people to act appropriately. That's correct, is it not? 7 A Which we not only hoped, but expected people to 8 use appropriately. 9 Q I understand. But what my point is: You and 10 Dr. Kelly knew what you thought were appropriate 11 safe-handling procedures. 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q You tnen wrote information on toxicity and safe 14 handling that you thought would convey what you believe 15 should happen with regard to safe handling. Correct? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q And the determination of whether or not what 18 you wrote, in fact, conveyed what you intended it to 19 convey would oe to look and see if it had the desired 20 effect, wouldn't it? 21 A If -- if the desired effect was to provide a 22 safe working environment, I -- I think that was proven 23 by the 40 years of very -- very few incidents of any 24 problems, and most of those were skin reaction. 25 Q You'll agree with me, then, that the proof of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024552 196 1 tne pudding in a warning, so to speak, is whether it 2 works or not. Correct? 3 A In the context I just mentioned, I think that's 4 correct, sir. 5 Q Okay. Now, the safe-handling instructions were 6 designed to express the extent to which workmen should 7 come into contact with PCSs, were tney not? 8 A No, sir. There was no contact intended. I -- 9 I don't think you intended to phrase that as you did. 10 Q Well, no. I -- 11 A They -- they were -- 12 Q Was it your intention that the -- that the 13 warning labels you wrote communicate that there should 14 be no contact by workmen with PC3s? 15 A There should be limited contact. 16 Q Okay. Now, the way to find out whether or not 17 those who received the warnings understood it correctly 18 would be to determine whether tney put into place 19 procedures that resulted in their workmen having no more 20 than the limited type of contact you and Dr. Kelly 21 intended. Isn't that correct? 22 A Did you preface your question with the -- tne 23 determination? 24 Q Tne way -- let rae repeat it -- The way to 25 determine or to find out whether the language that you NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024553 197 1 and Dr. Kelly wrote had the intended effect of limiting 2 contact by customers' workmen would be to see whether or 3 not their contact was limited in their workplace. Isn't 4 that correct? 5 A I think the 40 years' experience indicated 6 that -- that the warnings were sufficient and were being 7 carried out. 8 Q Well, we actually don't have to wait 40 years, 9 though, do we? One can go and determine whether or not 10 the customers are limiting their workmen's contact in 11 the way that you and Dr. Kelly intended to be the result 12 of your warnings. Isn't that correct? 13 A I think the supplier of any material can be 14 expected to go only so far as to provide the proper 15 information; not necessarily offer his services for 16 plant inspections, determination of what the procedures 17 are that they adopt to -- to avoid the exposure which 18 you recommended. And yet I -- I judge tnat that's what 19 your question was gtting at. 20 Q No. My question is: Tne only way to determine 21 whether tne words tnat you and Dr. Kelly chose to 22 express the extent to which a workman's contact with 23 PCSs should be limited is to ascertain whether customers 24 understood tnat wording the way you intended it. 25 MR. SHOEBOTHArt: I'm going to have to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024554 198 1 object to the question as being asked and 2 answered several times. 3 MR. LACEYj It has not been answered. 4 MR. SH0E30THAM: Mr. Wheeler told you 5 very clearly that one very good way to see that the warnings were effective was the 7 40 or so years of experience with only 8 very, very minimal difficulties with PC3s. 9 MR. LACEY: Tnat's not my question. 10 That's not my question at all. 11 MR. SHOE30THAI-1: Mr. Wheeler, how -- 12 how -- how -- we're now past the time that 13 Mr. Lacey said he was going to stop. How 14 are you holding up? 15 THE WITNESS: I'd just as soon call 16 it a day. 17 MR. LACEY: Okay. Well, why don't we 18 pick up tomorrow morning? What time? 19 MR. SH0E30THAM: 9:30 again? 20 MR. LACEY: Is that too early for 21 you, or -- 22 THE WITNESS: No, sir. I can corae. 23 MR. LACEY: All right j 9:30. 24 MR. SHOESOTHAM; I've got -- I've 25 got -- are we off the camera? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024555 199 1 HR. LACEY: Well, we will be 2 THE VID30TECHNICIAN: Okay, We' re 3 going off the record now. It's 4 :45 p.m. 4 5 (Tne deposition was adjourne d at 6 4:45 p.m., to be resumed at 9:30 a.a. on 7 Friday, May 8, 1987, at the same location) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 ******* 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024556 200 1 THE STATE OF* 2 * 3 COUNT* OF* 4 5 1, ELMER P. WHEELER, hereby certify that 1 6 have read the foregoing transcript of Volume I of ay 7 testimony given in the foregoing numbered and styled a case, and that same is true and correct to the best of 9 ay knowledge and belief. 10 I further certify that any and ail 11 corrections have been made on a separate page and 12 attached hereto. 13 SIGNED on this theday of 14 1987. 15 16 ELMER P. WHEELER 17 18 SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED BEFORE HE on tnis 19 theday of :, 1937. 20 21 22 Notary Public 23 24 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES. INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024557 201 1 THE STATE OF TEXAS * 2 COUNTY OF HARRIS * 3 4 I, LINDA C. BAKER, a Certified Shorthand 5 Reporter, hereby certify that the foregoing testimony 6 was given before me after the Witness had been first 7 duly sworn. 8 I certify tnat I prepared this transcript and 9 that tne foregoing 200 pages constitute a complete and 10 correct copy of the transcript of the proceedings 11 (Volume I), and that the original is being given to the 12 attorney taking same, to be filed by him if necessary. 13 I further certify that I am neither attorney 14 for, related to, nor employed by any of tne parties to 15 the lawsuit in which this deposition was taken; further, 16 I am neither related to nor employed by any attorney of 17 record in this cause, nor do 1 have a financial interest 18 in tne matter. 19 GIVEN UNDER MY HAND AND SEAL OF OFFICE in i / ,, 20 Houston, Texas, on this tne 1 ;" day of May, 19S7. 21 22 LINDA C. BAKER, CSR, RPR 23 Certification Humbert 505 Date of Expiration; December 31, 1988 24 Address; 2900 Smith Street, Suite 104 Houston, Texas 77006 25 Phone; 713/523-3767 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. WATER PCB-SD0000024558