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FILE NAME Roemer ROEM DATE 1984 Apr 25 DOC ROEM002 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION Legal - Deposition of Charles H. Roemer : l 1 UNITED STATES CLAIMS COURT CIVIL NO 465-83C 2 1-84C 688-83C 3 MANVILLE CORP 4 et at : 5 Plaintiffs : CIVIL ACTION 6: V DEPOSITION OF 7H UNITED STATES OF AMERICA CHARLES H. ROEMER 8~ : Defendant 9 wee ene ee eee ee ee ee ee ee ee x 10 TRANSCRIPT of deposition taken by and before CAROL ANN BRUMETT a Certified Shorthand 11 Reporter and Notary Public of the State of New Jersey at the TREADWAY INN KENNY PLACE SADDLE 12 BROOK NEW JERSEY on WEDNESDAY APRIL 25 1984 commencing at 9:35 in the forenoon 13 r APPEARANCES 14 SPRIGGS BODE & HOLLINGSWORTH ESQS 15 BY JOE G. HOLLINGSWORTH ESQ -and- 16 EDWARD M. FOGARTY ESQ Attorneys for the Plaintiff UNR Industries 17 FREEMAN & HAWKINS ESQS 18 BY ALBERT H. PARNELL ESQ Attorneys for the Plaintiff Manville 19 20 21 22 25 25 24 25 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT REPORTERS O. BOX 397 NEWARK N.J. 07101 201 643-5720 201 643-5721 STAN RIZMAN DENNIS WEBSTER HOWARD RAPPAPORT TOM BRAZAITIS MIKE DILLON  PEARANCES CONTINUED MARK D. ROMNESS ESQ Associate Corporate Counsel UNR Industries HUNZIKER MERREY & JONES ESQS BY EDWARD F. MERREY JR ESQ Attorneys for Charles H. Roemer BRUCE N. BAGNI ESQ Senior Trial Counsel Attorney for the Defendant 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 24 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT REPORTERS O. BOX 397 NEWARK N.J. 07101 201 643-5720 201 643-5721 STAN RIZMAN DENNIS WEBSTER * HOWARD RAPPAPORT TOM BRAZAITIS MIKE DILLON WITNESS INDEX INDEX INDEX INDEX DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS CHARLES H. ROEMER BY MR BAGNI 3 BY MR HOLLINGSWORTH BY MR PARNELL 33 62 38 10 11 12 13 4 15 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHARLES CHARLES CHARLES H. ROEMER ROEMER ROEMER ROEMER ROEMER having been duly sworn by the Notary testifies as follows MR MERREY I think just at the outset we ought to for the record indicate that Mr. Roeme1r s appearing pursuant to your subpoena for notice of deposition and further that Judge Peckham has indicated whether it will be formalized in a form of order or transcript which you sent me but this deposition S not to be deemed in violation of the restraining order if you will that was concerning Mr. Roemer's prior deposition on the bankruptcy matter MR BAGNI For the record I will read Judge Robert F. Peckham's order which is dated April 19 1984 and which was prepared during a telephone conference with the Court The Court states as follows I will direct that Mr. Roemer proceed to be deposed and that the sealed order heretofore made by the bankruptcy judge in the Southern District of New York does not extend to precluding the taking of his deposition DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR BAGNI Q. address S~-r please state your full name and A. My name S Charles H. Roemer and I 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 4 reside at 37-27 Verdan Avenue Fair Lawn New Jersey Q. A. How old are you Mr. Roemer 85 Q. Tell us your birth date A. February 5 1899 Q. And as Mr. Merrey indicated at the outset you were subpoenaed to come today and give your deposition testimony A. That's correct Q. Have I ever talked to you in the past prior to this deposition about your deposition testimony A. No you haven't 0 And the first time we ever met was outside the deposition room a few moments ago A. Yes Q. We understand all of us I've had numerous conversations with your counsel that you are suffering from poor health that you do have a heart problem and we're all very cognizant of that al do to and we're willing accommodate you to do whatever We have to f at any time during the course of the deposition you would like to take a break please feel free to ask for the recess and 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 5 I'm sure we'll all -- A. Thank you very much Q. What is your profession A. I'm an attorney at law of New Jersey Q. And are you presently practicing A. No. I retired on November 1 1983 Q. How long had you practiced in New Jersey A. I was admitted to the Bar in February Bar of the New Jersey Supreme Court in 1920 Q. Was your professional life entirely spent in New Jersey A. Yes sir Q. What was the nature of your practice A. General practice I did no criminal work Q. Are you familiar with the Union Asbestos and Rubber Company also known as Unarco A. I'm very much familiar with it Q. Did you ever have occasion to represent Unarco as counsel A. NO not Unarco My first contact with its predecessor I believe was Union Asbestos and Rubber Company and that was brought about by reason of the fact that I was then the chairman of ae cn ot -_ ~~ * ee Se US lCUre mma rem eS ee ee ee oe eo ee ee 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 6 the Paterson Industrial Commission and as a result of the depression and the charges brought about by obsolesence and otherwise in the dominant industry of the city which was silk manufacturing the Commission was created to attract new industries because as a result of this dual depression in other words the world and our nation was suffering from the great depression of 1929 we suffered a double depression because it was just about in that period that all this obsolesence in the silk industry took place In other words all the synthetic materials like rayon and SO forth these artificial ribers came into being and as a result of that practically all the silk looms of Paterson became obsolete and not only that but because of the difference in the I suppose chemical composition of the silk created by silk worms and the artificial fibers which came from Dupont the dyeing industry the silk dying industry was made obsolete and -- MR MERREY Excuse me Charlie This is interesting _ thing that Mr. history Bagni and I don't think it is the other attorneys the are concerned with Your involvement with the Industrial Commission and Union Asbestos 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 24 25 Roemer - direct * . THE WITNESS 7 Well except that as a result of that advertisements were put in the New York papers and one of the responses to one of those editorials - one of those advertisements was Mr. Cohen who was the president then of the Union Asbestos and Rubber Company and I met Mr. Cohen who came to Paterson conference We had a very lengthy Q. Can you tell us what year that was sir A. That would be I think it was right after Pearl Harbor SO it must have been early in 1942 because the Pearl Harbor attack took place on December 7 1941 and it was then that Mr. Cohen told me he had been ordered by the United States Government to establish an asbestos plant in the vicinity of either the New York or Brooklyn Navy Yard or the Philadelphia Navy Yard SO that he wanted me to explain to him the advantages of a Paterson location Q. Would you explain to us what you mean by ordered You said the United States had ordered -- A. Well Mr. Cohen told me that he was the head of a firm that manufactured asbestos bricks for railroad cars and that by reason of their 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 00 experience with the material that he had been ordered that was the term I think that's very appropriate and I think it's the one he used In other words he wasn't opening - as I understood it he wasn't opening his plant by reason of any order of his own board of directors and it was -- and he was to do something that they weren't doing in Cicero which was the place where they maintained their plant Q. What did he tell you that Unarco was expected to do at the Paterson plant A. He said that with the destruction of our Navy really at Pearl Harbor because we didn't maintain much of an Atlantic fleet he said and I know that myself from my historical studies that we would have to become a seven ocean - we would have to create a seven ocean navy and that he would have to create a plant that would we have and manufacture asbestos blankets because they would of necessity have to build many torpedo boats and destroyers and smaller vessels which had to contain very high speed engines and so forth but in order to be small and fast that would all have to be --=- the engine part of the vessel would have to be contained in the smallest amount of 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 20 21 22 24 25 Roemer - direct 9 space imaginable and under the circumstances he couldn't weave these blankets by the use of American or Canadian asbestos because the American asbestos or the Canadian asbestos was very short It was only about an inch or an inch and a quarter long whereas the asbestos which the government was to supply came from Africa I forget whether he said north Africa or south Africa but he said that the asbestos thread was much longer and lent itself to the weaving process and that the plant that he was to establish near one of these two Navy yards would have to weave and make asbestos blankets which could be wrapped around the pipes He sort of explained to me that asbestos is used in most homes for wrapping around the return pipe to the boilers of the houses but that would mean that each pipe would have to be covered in that fashion and it would take so much room that with blankets made of this African asbestos they could concentrate the engine in the smallest amount of space to give the Navy -- navel vessel the maximum speed because these smaller vessels especially aren't necessarily intended to destroy the enemy but to disable them so they have to get in and out fast NOW I -- that was substantially what 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 10 he told me during this Paterson conference Q. Let's see now Did he ever indicate to you that Unarco would be engaging in these manufacturing activities in Paterson for purposes of profit A. He never discussed that with me at all I assumed of course that he -- that the company would be compensated Q. Did he ever discuss with you whether or not the government was helping to defray the cost of establishing a new factory A. As far as I knew there was no discussion of that at all Q. Now he explained what Unarco was wishing to do Did you then explain to him what the virtues of locating in Paterson might be A. Yes Q. I see And presumably there then came a time when Unarco established a factory or a plant in Paterson A. Yes We had just the plant that they wanted aa Q. I see Were you instrumental in helping to facilitate the movement of Unarco into that plant 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 11 A. Absolutely Q. And what was your function MR PARNELL Excuse me You say Unarco and he says Union Asbestos and Rubber Company I'm not sure they're the same thing for my own classification Q. Do you distinguish Unarco -- A. I only knew Unarco was Union Asbestos and Rubber Company of Chicago Their plant was in Chicago but they were in Cicero MR BAGNI Are we talking about the same thing counsel | Rubber Company Unarco and Union Asbestos and MR ROMNESS We never established Whatever is comfortable A. I assume when you say Unarco you mean only the company I knew Q. Yes sir Q. So you were saying that you were instrumental in facilitating the movement of Unarco into this particular plant And how did you help to facilitate the move ae A. Well number one the manager of the plant was a very wonderful young engineer by the name of Robert Cryor y and he had an 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 12 assistant manager by the name of Ed Shuman m and both of them Mr. Cryor came from Chicago Mr. Shuman I think had his origin in the New York area but neither of them knew where the water company was Neither of them knew where the City Hall in Paterson was Neither of them knew where the public service utility company was in Paterson In other words because of my chairmanship of the Industrial Commission I told them that they were -- I was available to do anything that I could to help in promoting the welfare of the company in Paterson Q. Let's see now Once the company became established in the plant did you ever have an opportunity to go to the plant A. Oh yes Q. And did you have an opportunity to actually see the operations A. I certainly did Q. Do you recall -- did you actually go down on the floor where the blue collar people were working - A. Q. Absolutely Do you recall whether you saw any dust in the air 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 13 A. I don't recall any Serlous amount of dust I know that the weaving process itself produces some dust but I was in that plant a number of times At a matter of fact I was subsequently examined by virtue of my visits to see if I had asbestosis and thank God Dr. Selikoff told me that I was okay Q. Sir were any of the -- did you ever see any of the employees at the plant wearing any kind of protective devices A. I certainly did As a matter of fact they were supplied with the most expensive miners masks which they were required and ordered to wear and in order to give the company -- when I say company I mean Union Asbestos in order for the company to have some discipline in the matter they paid I forget now whether it was five or ten cents an hour over the union scale SO that the company could make sure that they always wore those masks In other words most Americans I think are free booters and we don't like to have -- wear masks or anything else SO there is a natural - tendency I think to sort of kick them off occasionally You know But in order to make sure that they wore these masks and they were 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 24 25 Roemer - direct 14 quite expensive according to what Mr. Cryor told me and as I say they were paid more than wage scale to make sure that they did Wear them had to wear them Q. Did you ever see any Unarco employees on the floor involved in the manufacturing process not wearing their masks A. No. Q. When you walked on the floor did you wear a mask A. No. Q. Did Mr. Cryor wear a mask A. No. Q. Mr. Shuman A. No. Q. Are you familiar with a process called A. Finishing Q. The finishing process A. No. Q. Let me put it to you another way Did you ever during your visits to the plant ever see employees sawing asbestos blanket or asbestos blocks A. NO I did not I don't recall that 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct MR PARNELL and answer 15 Read back the question Pertinent portion read by the reporter A. No I did not Q. You did not see them sawing A. No. I did not Q. Who was Dr. Jack Roemer A. He was a distant cousin of mine and he was generally recognized as the outstanding ray specialist in the Paterson area Q. I see So he was -- his specialty was radiology A. That was his specialty yes Q. And you say his reputation in the medical community was he was the leading radiologist in the Paterson area MR PARNELL With all due respect I have to object I don't know that Mr. Roemer is in the position to testify as to what his standing was in the medical profession A. He was elected president of the Passaic County Medical Society and he testified as an expert in many court proceedings especially in accident cases and I remember one occasion when 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 16 Judge Selzer in the circuit court wanted to send a message to the Passaic County Medical Society and he took occasion to do it via that That was right in the open courtroom Q. Was DI Roemer associated with Unarco A. Yes Well associated I mean in this sense that Mr. Cryor told me that he wanted all his prospective employees to be rayed before they were hired and he wanted them rayed every six months thereafter and in accordance with our arrangement he called me and asked me to recommend a Paterson ray man and I told him that Dr. Roemer was my relative but that that had nothing to do with my judgment that I felt that he was the best man that could be employed by them and I upon my recommendation they retained Dr. Roemer to do the ray work as I've indicated Q. So in the ray work that you've indicated is Dr. Roemer would take the rays of the prospective employees and would follow that up -- A. If they were hired 0 If they were hired - A. He would then follow that up six months down the road with another ray A. That is correct That was his setup 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 17 with the company but being the kind of a man that he was being a scientist as well as a physician on his own he started raying some of these men more frequently just to see what was happening and as a result of that he discovered six cases of lung changes Q. What year was that sir A. I would say that that was either the fall -- well let's see now That would be probably - that was 42. That was 42 Q. Did Dr. Roemer communicate his ray findings to you A. Of all these men you mean Q. Of the individuals the six individuals that you are referring to A. Oh yes What -- do you want me to tell you about that Q. Let me ask you a couple preparatory questions First of all did there come a time when he communicated his findings with respect to those six men to you Wn A. That's right Q. And you indicated before that Dr. Roemer had concluded that these men had serious 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct ray changes MR PARNELL 18 I object to the form of the question He did not say serious He may have but I don't think he said it MR BAGNI I'll withdraw the question Q. I believe you said something to the effect that Dr. Roemer said that these men showed ray changes A. That's right Q. Now did Dr. Roemer arrive at a diagnosis with respect to those six gentlemen A. Subsequently he told me he had Q. And what was the diagnosis that he had arrived at A. The diagnosis that he arrived at was that they had asbestosis Q. I see Did he tell you - well I'll withdraw that Can you recall what if anything else Dr. Roemer told you in connection with the findings he had made with respect to these six gentlemen A. Yes sir Q. Would you please relate that to us 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 19 A. Well one day in 19 -- I believe this was during the summer of 1942 he came to my office and I was rather surprised at that because he was a rather busy man and I said What's on your mind Jack And he said I've just -- he told me he was examining some of these men more frequently and without compensation because his orders from the company were to do it every six months He said just out of curiosity because this was a new venture and he saw these changes on the ray and he asked these men to come back and be rayed again maybe a week later and he was convinced then that a permanent change in the condition of their lungs had taken place and I said Well why do you come to me about this I said I'm not a doctor and I'm not connected with the company in any way He said Well you're the one that recommended me and I think it would be more appropriate if you did it He said I want you to go to the company and tell them to dismiss these men immediately because they're going to die horrible deaths I said How can that happen And he explained to me at that time I mean this is my recollection of it that asbestosis is different from silicosis which Roemer - direct 20 miners suffer from He said that silicosis causes a chemical change in the lung whereas asbestos because it is a mineral that doesn't dissolve causes a physical change I said Well Jack I'm getting in deep here Please explain what you mean So he explained it by telling me if I had a pound bag paper bag he said the bag would be full even though it would appear to be empty He said It's full of air He said But if I 10 put two pounds of sugar in there he says then 11 a change has occurred He says The two pounds 12 of sugar have driven out the space occupied by the 13 two pounds of air and he said but on the 14 other hand he said If I put two teaspoons full 15 of sugar in coffee he said a chemical change 16 takes place In other words actually the sugar 17 disappears and you now have a new composition 18 made of coffee and sugar a complete chemical 19 change He said If these men continue to work 20 at the plant he says more and more of these 21 little -- what are these little air spaces in the 22 lung called I don't have a recall Well you - 23 know lungs are made up of millions of little air 24 sacks I guess is a way I can explain it they 25 fill up and after awhile he says They just 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 21 haven't enough space there to breath SO they really die horrible deaths He said Tell them to get out Get -- Call Mr. Cryor and tell him to dismiss these men right away I said They're married men Doctor I said What are they going to do He said Charlie let them cut grass or anything out doors but get them out Well by that time I was beginning to understand the urgency of the situation So I got in touch with Mr. Cryor and I told him about what Dr. Roemer had told me and I said Bob you ought to dismiss these men immediately Tell them what's wrong He said Charlie I can't do it We're a union shop He said Our union contract provides that we can't dismiss anyone without informing the union So I said Well get in touch with the union and tell them what Dr. Roemer told me and get them out of here Well about a week later Bob Cryor called me and told me that he had taken the matter up with the union that was the union that organized the shop - wouldn't consent to and the they told dismissal him that they of these men because they accused the company of engaging in a plan to bust the union And that's all this 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 22 was Q. Do you know whether any alternatives to dismissal were discussed by Mr. Cryor with the union A. Well the only alternative we had was to notify these men personally and they went to the workmen's compensation bureau and filed claims Q. Were these six individuals personally notified of their condition A. They were according to what I was told Q. Do you know who actually notified them A. Either Mr. Cryor or Mr. Shuman Q. Do you know whether they continued working at the Unarco plant A. I really don't know I assume not Q. Once the union discussions proved unsuccessful what if any further action did you take A. Well I made some inquires around and I was told -- I assumed that there must be some sort of centers of study of this matter just as there was in connection with tuberculosis and to my an - amazement I was told that there was only one place in the whole country where any studies in asbestosis were being made and that was Saranac 3 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 23 Lake in Upstate New York and as a result of further inquiries I was informed that the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company maintained it So I contacted the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company and they referred me to -- now I may be mistaken about this there were a couple of doctors that I spoke to connected with Saranac or Metropolitan Life It didn't make any difference to me I just wanted to get some results The doctors in question were Dr. Lanza and at a recent -- when I gave a deposition previously I think my recollection was refreshed about a Dr. Gardner Those were two of the doctors that I had spoke to -- Q. May I ask what you were seeking from these physicians A. I told them what our problem was and if they had any recommendations and they led me down the primrose path into a cul that I just couldn't get out of I couldn't get anywheres And I was subsequently told by someone I don't know who it was that -- MR PARNELL I have to object to any kind of hearsay told by someone if he doesn't know who it was I have to object to that A. But at any rate it Was as a result of 10 11 12 13 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 24 what was said to me I was told that the Metropolitan Life's work in this matter was being subsidized by the asbestos industry and under the circumstances they -- you wouldn't get any help there Charlie That's what I was told Q. You wouldn't get any help from where A. Metropolitan Q. I see Did you take any other action on the information that Dr. Roemer had supplied you A. Well I think we had to tighten up on the compensation situation and We couldn't get workmen's compensation from any company SO the result was that they made an arrangement with an insurance company the name of which I don't know at this time to handle their compensation cases but they had to be insurers In other words if there was a judgment entered for whatever the amount was the company would have to pay it out of -- the judgment out of its own treasury Q. Did you ever have any meetings with officials from the Manville Corporation about the situation at the Paterson plant A. That was one -- that was one of our moves I went -- I conferred with Bob Cryor and ee ee me elem e ee e ee on OE oe Oe 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 25 Ed Shuman and I said Look here The biggest asbestos company in the world is right here in New Jersey I said They certainly must have these problems just as you're having them Let's see how they handle them I mean we really wanted to do the right thing So I suggested that they set up a conference with Manville which was subsequently done Q. Do you recall who set the meeting up with Manville A. Mr. Cryor and Shuman Q. I see A. Because I told them it would be better if they set up the meeting instead of myself and the meeting was arranged at their New York headquarters on I believe 40th Street in New York Q. Do you recall what year that was A. I think it was in the fall of 1942 or it might have been the spring Now the reason I said that I remember I was wearing a top coat at the time and I remember taking it off and having some young lady hang it up for me SO it was either the fall of 1942 or the spring I would say of 1943 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer Roemer direct direct 26 Q. So a meeting was in fact set up at the Manville headquarters in New York City A. That's right At the main offices And the president of the company was there and the counsel of the the company was there Q. And what was the president of the company's name Do you recall A. I think the counsel's name was Vanderver Vanderver Vanderver Brown Now his brother was the president president president or at least I was told that but his first first name escapes me Q. Would Would it have been Louis Brown A. It might have been It might have been yes Q. Do you recall what time of day the meeting was held A. It was held before noon I remember that distinctly distinctly because I had lunch with them in their board board rooms after the meeting Q. I see Why do you recall the lunch SO vividly A. It was the first time in my life I had lobster for lunch Q. Do you recall who all was at the meeting representing Manville mm-maeae-eoweme em -menees rr CONT CONTCONT| DEPORTERS DEPORTERS 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 27 A. Oh there were several other gentlemen there who were introduced to me as officers of the company Q. Their names escape me entirely Who from Unarco attended the meeting A. Mr. Shuman Mr. Cryor and myself Q. NOW this meeting took place over 40 years ago Why S it that you are able to recall Vanderver Brown's name A. Because it was So unique Brown of course is a common name but Vanderver I never came across that name prior to that Q. Have you ever come across it since A. No. Q. When you got to the meeting and It was convened who presented the Unarco situation it you will to the Manville representatives A. I did Q. And do you recall what you told them in words or substance A. I told them substantially what Dr. Roemer told us and that he asked US what We were doing You see How we were handling our cases I said Well in our case as soon as Dr. Roemer reported to us that there were changes in the man's lungs just in very incipient stages we notified 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 28 parties of the situation Workmen's compensation claims were filed He then either Mr. Brown the president or one of them accused us of being a bunch of fools because by doing that it will cost the company much more money than if they let them continue to work I'll never forget I turned to Mr. Brown one of the Browns made this crack and I said Mr. Brown do you mean to tell me you would let them work until they dropped dead He said Yes We save a lot of money that way Well I poked Bob Cryor who was sitting near me and I said I think the conference was over I wanted some humanitarian conversations to be included in this thing that we might have overlooked Q. Were you shocked by what -- A. I was terribly shocked and I said I don't think there's anything more that we can discuss here Q. During the course of this conversation did the -- did either of the Browns indicate to you that they had discovered that some of their workers had come down with asbestosis A. Yes Of course Q. And do I understand your testimony to 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 29 be that in the face of that discovery that it was Manville's policy not to inform the workers of their condition MR PARNELL I have to object to the form of the question That may in fact be what this witness will say but that has not been the testimony as to this point of time and I object to the form of the question MR BAGNI I'll withdraw the question Q. Mr. -- one of the Browns indicated to you that they were aware of the fact Manville was aware of the fact that some of their factory workers were suffering from asbestosis MR PARNELL I object again A. I thought I answered that already In other words I told you that their policy when they learned that one of their employees was involved in this asbestosis was to let them work because by doing that no claim would be filed in the workmen's compensation bureau you see and that they saved a lot of money that way In effect he felt We were a couple of jerks or something for notifying them SO soon Q. I see Was anything else discussed at 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 30 the meeting after that A. No. No. We just -- I said well there's nothing more that we can accomplish this morning and we were then invited to have lunch with them Q. So you adjourned for the lobster lunch A. Yes Q. And was anything discussed during the course of the lunch A. No. It was a very delightful lunch Q. That was small talk basically the lunch A. Yes Q. Is there anything else you remember about the meeting with Messrs Brown A. I can't think of anything Q. About how long did the meeting last A. I would say about an hour tops Q. During the course of the meeting did either of the Browns relate to you what if any findings Manville personnel had made with respect to any ray changes in their factory workers A. I thought I explained that Q. Well what I'm trying to get at is if Roemer - direct 31 I may you testified that Dr. Roemer came to you and explained to you what the situation was with respect to six workers You then went to Manville to explain the Unarco situation to them and ask them how they were dealing with their situation A. Yes Q. And I'm simply trying to determine whether or not their experience and their findings 10 were the same as the findings that were made by 11 Dr. Roemer 12 MR PARNELL I have to object With 13 all due respect unless one of the people from 14 Manville represented specifically in detail 15 to Mr. Roemer about all the findings as you call 16 it et cetera I have to object to the form of the 17 question I don't think it is proper It is 18 obviously prejudicial to my client and the only 19 thing I want to be sure of is that Mr. Roemer 20 repeats actually what he heard without 21 embellishment or speculation and I think that is 22 what the law requires 23 A. I'll repeat what I said before that 24 they said that they had the same problems the 25 problem in their plants but when they were Roemer - direct 32 advised of changes in the condition of their employees lungs that they did nothing about it SO far as the employee was concerned because they saved money that way I mean that's the only way I could put it That was definitely said by one of the Browns It was either the president or his brother 10 Q. Have you had any contact with Vanderver Brown or Louis Brown or any other Brown since that A. I have never heard of them since I 11 never had any contacts with them at all 12 Q. Have you had any contacts with the 13 Manville Corporation 14 A. No. Except to give -= I did make a 15 deposition in this matter -- not in this case but 16 in this situation SO that -- 17 Q. But you never had any further 18 discussions with Manville regarding business 19 matters 20 A. No. 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Do you happen to recall the names of the six Unarco workers - A. Oh no No. Q. Were they ever related to you the names 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - direct 33 A. Well I think Dr. Roemer had a -- some sort of a piece of paper with him with their names on it but I wasn't concerned with the -- at that moment with the names or anything else because Roemer wanted me to notify the company that he had found six cases and that these six men Were the ones that he would recommend to be discharged Q. I see MR BAGNI further at this time I don't have anything EXAMINATION BY MR HOLLINGSWORTH Q. Mr. Roemer I'm Joe Hollingsworth and I represent Unarco UNR Industries as it is now known I have just a few questions Could you tell us once again what the source of supply of the .asbestos used at Unarco's Paterson plant was A. It was asbestos that the government purchased in Africa Q. How did it get to Unarco's plant Do you know A. It was delivered on -- on railroad cars The plant in Paterson had a very long railroad siding on the main line of the Erie Railroad Q. Was all of the output of product from Roemer - cross 34 Unarco's plant supplied to the government ship yards A. Q. You mean the Paterson plant Yes A. Yes Q. Were the supplies of the government of asbestos to the Paterson plant constant throughout World War ? A. No. There were some interruptions I 10 think I remember one very well because the ship 11 that was transporting the asbestos for the plant 12 had been torpedoed by a German submarine and they 13 were very worried that the plant might have to 14 shut down until the supply was restored but 15 apparently they survived that emergency 16 Q. Were there sufficient numbers of 17 workers in Paterson to man Unarco's plant 18 A. Oh yes The plant employed about 200 19 people It had no difficulty in getting it 20 because Paterson is the oldest deliberately 21 planned industrial city in the United States 22 Q. Did the government have anything to do 23 with assuring that the work force was available to 24 Unarco 25 A. Now just repeat that please 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - cross 35 Q. Did -- do you know did the government have any connection with assuring that sufficient work force for Unarco's plant during the war A. I don't know whether that -- I don't think that was discussed There was no problem about it That's all I know No problem at all Q. Did the workers have draft deferments that worked at Unarco's plant do you know A. I believe they were given the highest rating which meant I believe it was -- but that was no problem because most of them were you know above the draft age Q. But you believe that the workers at Unarco's plant had the highest priority that the government could give them A. That's right As a matter of fact the plant was so efficiently run the government awarded the Union Asbestos plant in Paterson the E Flag which was the greatest honor that an industrial plant could get during the war Q. How do you know about that sir Could you explain that a A. One day two men one a representative of the United States Army by the name of Kuhn h and one representing the Navy whose name 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - Cross 36 was Lodge the son of the -- the brother of the Senator from Massachusetts came to my office and said they were representing the Defense Department in connection with the fact that they were going to award the plant the E Flag I says Why do you come to me I said Why don't you go to the mayor And he said We don't want this to be a political thing In examining the make up of the city government the only Board that seemed to be political was my Board which was the Industrial Commission and they asked me to cooperate with them in setting up a date and all that sort of thing and a time and SO forth with the company which I did SO that I was involved in that presentation from before the plant even knew it I was the first one notified of that thing and I attended the actual presentation with Knox and Kuhn and other representatives of the government and that - one of the most important things in connection with the presentation of an E Flag was the fact that the industrial relations were good at the plant They had to be excellent In other words maintain excellent relations with their help Q. Unarco would have had to maintain 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 25 Roemer - cross 37 excellent relations in order to qualify for an E Flag Yes Do you recall the ceremony Oh very much Can you describe it Well all the employees that were 1 that could be spared were in attendance and the newspapers were their with their photographers to photograph the event and there was great rejoicing Let's put it that way Q. You said all the employees that could be spared Did you mean the ones that weren't working at the time A. Well those that weren't working and those who stopped work I mean those that could be spared There were certain operations I assume that had to be guarded at all times or covered let's say SO far as I know every employee was asked to attend Q. Was Unarco's plant in Paterson in operation around the clock 24 hours a day - A. Yes it was Q. What did the E Award signify A. Efficiency In other words there were 10 11 12 13 4 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - cross 38 a number of items that were -- that had to be met in order to get that award and apparently Union Asbestos and Rubber Company qualified Q. When was the Unarco Paterson plant shut down Do you know A. Well it was -- I would say on or after the Japanese surrender Q. One last question Mr. Roemer You said in attendance at the E Award ceremony were two gentlemen from the government and I think you said their names were Kuhn and Knox A. No. Lodge Q. Kuhn and Lodge A. Yes He was a brother and subsequently became Senator of Connecticut and his brother was ambassador to and United States Senator His father had been United States Senator in -- during the Woodrow Wilson administration MR HOLLINGSWORTH Thank you sir further questions EXAMINATION BY MR PARNELL Q. Mr. Roemer we met before I'm Al Parnell and I'll have some questions to ask you If at any time I ask you a question and you don't understand it or don't like it I'll change it 3 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer ~- cross 39 How's that A. Good enough Q. You in speaking with Mr. Bagni recalled your first contact with Mr. Cohen as I recall A. Yes Q. Was that by telephone or did he come to your office A. No. We met at -- it was a -- we met at the Alexander Hamilton Hotel in Paterson Q. About how long did that meeting take A. I would say about an hour and a half Q. Tell me as much as you recall about his conversation with you about the government ordering Union Asbestos and Rubber Company to find a place in Paterson A. No. The government didn't say that Q. All right What was it that he said A. The government ordered the company he said to establish a plant either near the Brooklyn Navy Yard or near the Camden Navy Yard It was to be one plant but it had to be near one of those two Navy yards Q. Why was that A. Because he said they were to 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - cross 40 manufacture some asbestos products for the Navy and they wanted the plant to be accessible to those Navy yards Q. Now if I heard you correctly you also indicated that the Union Asbestos and Rubber Company had not previously been in that particular business that they had done something about railroad brake linings Is that correct A. That's right Q. Tell me as much as you recall about that portion of the conversation A. He told me that his company had been in the business of manufacturing brake linings asbestos brake linings for railroad cars for many years and that their offices were in Chicago and that their plant was in Cicero Illinois Q. Continue please They were in Cicero Illinois A. And that by reason of that the government had selected the company to open this plant because of their experience in asbestos manufacturing activities - Q. You also mentioned I believe that the American and Canadian fiber wasn't going to be appropriate for some reason What exactly did Mr. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - cross 41 Cohen tell you about that A. He said that the reason that -- he said that the American asbestos was only about an inch or an inch and a half long and would not lend itself to weaving Q. Well how was it that the Union Asbestos and Rubber Company was going to actually get this African fiber across the ocean in war time A. The government was to procure it and bring it to the plant which they did on the railroad sidings 0 In your dealings do you know how it got to the railroad sidings How did it get from Africa to the United States A. Well it was brought here to America by ship As I say one of the -- two of the ships were sunk by submarines you know and they were worried about you know being able to maintain the quantity that was expected of them Q. When you said the word they who was worried about maintaining the quantity - A. The plant The Union Asbestos Without asbestos the plant would have to shut down Q. You say that there were two occasions 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 24 25 Roemer - cross 42 when boats were sunk by submarines A. That's what I was told by Mr. Cryor Q. By Mr. Cryor A. Yes Q. Do you recall when it was that you were - during what period of time you were told this or was it just during the war A. During the war I would rather put it that way yes Q. What did Mr. Cohen tell you that he needed in finding a plant in Paterson What was he looking for A. He was looking for a very substantial plant with heavy floor loads with high ceilings but it would have to have a railroad siding for the delivery of the asbestos and we had a plant that was then vacant owned by the Nicholson File Company which is now I believe in Providence Rhode Island and I don't know whether I took him there or not I have no recollection of that I did tell him that that was one plant that I could highly recommend to him and subsequently I was told that know all I is that he had accepted the Paterson location in preference to any down near Camden or in that area re - ~ ~me-ae _ e -_-_ Ss em e 6TH ee ee a ee a) i. 2 on Ot on IE Ghd 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - cross 43 ' Q. Now many folks who hear your testimony at a later date won't know much about New Jersey Where is Manville located from where you were A. oh I would say central Jersey Q. How far in terms of miles A. Gee I would have to give you a wild guess Q. Please don't make a wild guess We don't ever want you to do that A. I really don't know Q. Do you know the name of the union that you were dealing with or that Mr. Cryor was dealing with What was that called A. It was the same union I believe that all the other textile plants were involved in Q. Do you know I don't want you to guess A. I should know it I don't have instant recall now I'll get it Let's see It was the CIO union That I know but I would rather leave it at that I don't know the exact name of the union right now than Q. Now did you have anything to do \ letting Mr. Cryor know about what Jacob other Roemer had told you without actually talking to the union yourself 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - cross 44 A. I didn't talk to the union Q. Mr. Roemer I believe you had indicated that you were in general practice Is that correct A. That is right Q. And I believe that you indicated to me that prior time that your practice was not exclusively related to workmen's compensation in any way Is that correct A. That's right 0 And I can't recall but is it not true that you really didn't do a workmen's compensation practice during that period from 1941 to 45 A. That's right Q. And you didn't have anything to do with the drafting of legislation for changes of workmen's compensation laws in New Jersey s that correct A. Not at all And in terms of even dealing with this Q. problem that you yourself didn't have communication with Union Asbestos and Rubber Company about the compensation laws s that not correct Let me rephrase the question My recollection is you did not specifically advise Union Asbestos and Rubber 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - cross 45 Company about what the compensation laws of New Jersey were during this period of time A. None whatsoever Q. And you were certainly not an expert in those laws Is that correct A. Absolutely not Q. NOW as a matter of fact if I recall you previously told me that you were sure that the Silicosis and Asbestos Act of New Jersey was in effect at the time of these conversations that you had on 40th street in New York with Manville Is that correct A. That's right Q. But you did not know specifically what the contents of that act were A. Oh yes That I knew Q. You did A. Yes I read it Q. All right sir Now I believe in your previous testimony that you have indicated that the conversation that you had in New York about compensation was in the context of the Silicosis and Asbestos Act of New Jersey Is that not correct 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - cross 46 A. That's right Q. And I believe that you previously indicated that the content of that conversation was actually in connection with the application of the Act to the workers who were involved with asbestosis A. That's correct Q. And to the ramifications of that Act s that correct A. That's correct MR BAGNI Mr. Parnell when you say he previously told you are you talking about a prior deposition MR PARNELL Absolutely MR BAGNI And I take it that that is the deposition under seal in the bankruptcy court MR PARNELL That's correct MR BACNI Do you happen to have a copy of the deposition since I do not have a copy and you are asking questions MR BAGNI I don't have a copy and I'm calling on my recollection of the one time -- ~ Q. ve never had any type of private conversation with you at any time have ? A. No. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - cross 47 Q. And in 1982 I believe I came to a place with about a hundred -- about a hundred lawyers and that was the first time I ever saw you Is that right MR BAGNI Mr. Parnell I object to your reference to any of his prior reference as I believe it relates to the sealed order and more- over I'm not privy to it and therefore I cannot test those areas that you are inquiring into Q. How about if I do it this way Because of Mr. Bagni's objection I'll ask the series of questions and I'll see if we can cover the same ground and avoid the type of objection that Mr. Bagni suggested s it not true that when you went to Manville's offices as you have related and had conversations with the people that you've related about that it is your best judgment that the Asbestos and Silicosis Act of New Jersey was in place at that time Isn't that correct A. That's my recollection Q. _ And in the context of your conversations with those individuals you all were talking about the application of that Act and how you were going to approach the applications of Po 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - Cross 48 that Act A. Isn't that | correct Yes Q. And it was in the context of those discussions those discussions that your conversations were isn't that correct A. Well we both agreed that we were both governed by the compensation act that is Manville and our own company but what we wanted to do was not so much to have a discussion about the Asbestos and Silicosis Act as to find out whether their treatment of the -- of the situations that arose was any different than ours and from which we might learn some lessons Q. Of course NOW in connection with that though -- strike that I'll ask it again Did I understand in response to a question from Mr. Bagni that this entire conversation amenities et cetera lasted approximately an hour A. Well that is the luncheon period must have consumed an hour Q. Let me come back I want to make it clear Let's exclude the luncheon for just a moment A. Yes 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - cross 49 Q. I thought that in response to Mr. Bagni's question and you correct me if I'm wrong H thought that the meeting that you all had with the officers or whoever it was that was actually there took about an hour Is that correct or incorrect A. I would say about an hour more or less You know it may be an hour and a quarter or something of that sort I didn't pull a stop watch on the thing 0 And you certainly don't have a transcript of all that you all talked about at that time A. Absolutely not and none was made Q. And didn't - obviously you have recounted to us here today at least to the extent that Mr. Bagni has asked you questions about it your recollection of what took place Is that correct A. That's correct Q. And for the most part that is not a verbatim transcript or recollection of all the things that took place during that hour meeting is it A. No. Not necessarily but the -- I just wanted to give you the purpose of the meeting and Roemer - cross 50 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And the sense of the discussions A. Yes And in way the meeting ended as early as it did because we weren't going to learn anything at the meeting Q. All right sir A. From the meeting Q. Now let me ask you this During your discussions with Dr. Lanza and Dr. Gardner did you inquire or learn from them whether or not they spent any time in '42 when you talked with them with government hygenists in teaching courses with them A. No discussions No. Q. Do you know the name of the company that acted as a claims service for you in the compensation claims A. No I do not except that the attorney that handled the matter was Arthur Meade of Newark Q. You indicated to me that someone -- or indicated that someone came I believe Kuhn or Lodge to your office and you Were the - first one to be informed of the E Flag Award S that correct A. That's right 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - cross 51 Q. Now was all of the ceremony on the same day or did these government representives make more than one trip to Paterson A. Well they came to Paterson to confer with me at my office about the thing originally then they returned the day of the ceremony Q. So that was two separate trips A. Yes Q. Did Mr. Kuhn and Mr. Cabot come on both occasions A. Yes Q. And do you recall Mr. Lodge's position at the time that he came to see you that is his capacity in the government A. I think he was a commander in the Navy Q. I see And now did you undertake to get the newspapers there A. That's right Q. And how did we go about doing that A. Well I went to the owners of both papers the owners and we have two papers -- we had two papers in Paterson at the time Mr. Haynes of the Paterson News and Mr. Williams Henry A. Williams of the Morning Call Q. Do you know under what authority these Roemer ~ cross 52 E Flag Awards were granted That is do you have any idea what statutory authority A. No. I know that this plant was the only plant that got the award The Wright Aeronautical Company which was an employing 45,000 people in Paterson also received the E Flag Award We were very happy to have those things happen Q. Now prior to the Asbestos and 10 Silicosis Act of New Jersey there was a prior 11 worker's compensation act -- 12 A. That is correct 13 Q. -- that was in place Is that correct 14 A. That is right 15 Q. And as I recall the distinction -- one 16 of the distinctions between the two was that the 17 Asbestos and Silicosis Act did not make a 18 distinction between degrees of injury Is that correct 20 A. That's right That was the big thing 21 Not only that but the original act passed during 22 the administration of Governon Wilson in New 23 Jersey required that there be some sort of a -=- 24 oh my goodness Words don't -- isn't that awful 25 Q. Take your time Mr. Roemer We have 10 11 12 13 4 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - cross 53 all day or as long as your lawyer lets us be A. Trauma In other words the original act provided that there could be no recovery in workmen's compensation unless there was a trauma The Silicosis Act was the first recognition of industrial disease You see Q. Unless they became totally and permanently disabled from a trauma they couldn't recover any compensation for jury under the old act A. Yes Q. And couldn't recover for partial if t didn't come for trauma under the old act A. No. Now you're confusing me Q. I don't want to confuse you Under the old act unless there was a trauma right there could be no recovery at all A. That's right Q. So that in terms of Industrial Commission accidents unless there was -- trauma an injury a blow you couldn't recover any type of money on compensation could you before the Silicosis and Asbestos Act A. That's right Q. And the former act did not provide any 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 24 2 Roemer - cross 54 partial injury for partial disability unless there was a trauma A. Of course Q. As a matter of fact that was one of the things -- strike that You said that a moment ago when I talked about the Silicosis and Asbestos Act you indicated that was one of the big things and that was one of the big things that the Browns and you talked about at that meeting wasn't it A. That's right Q. Now let me ask you about Dr. Jacob Roemer for just a moment if I may A. Surely Q. Dr. Jacob Roemer was from Paterson Is that correct A. That's right Q. And he was a radiologist I believe Is that right A. That's correct Q. I would ask you to be s precise as you an an and not make a2 guss guss in this instanc Obiously Obiously Obiously if you have a reasonable judgment you may te me Originally he was asked to examine new employees or prospective Employe s and then Roemer - cross 55 reexamine them every six months Is that correct A. If Employed 0 If employeempd loyed A. Yes Q. My understanding is and I'm certainly not trying to put words in your mouth that he became curious or interested and began to do certain work on his own for which he was not remunerated by the company Is that correct A. Yes 0 Do I understand you do not know wheth r 12 h did that work on mploy S that had bin 12 12 working at a plant for a period of time as opposed 14 to new employees that you do not know that issue 15 or do you 16 A. Oh I do 17 Q. Okay Tell me about that 18 A. In other words if they were not 19 employed after the taking of the first ray he 20 never met them again 21 Q. I perhaps didn't ask the right kind 22 of question Let me try it again 23 - He obviously had to make ray 24 examinations of individuals who were employed by (> 25 Union Asbestos and Rubber Company Of the six 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - cross 56 that ne found that you've indicated though you do not know whether those were new employees who had just come with the company or employees who had been with the company for a period of time or do you A. Yes In other words he started to take ray pictures of employees who he had rayed previously Q. Do you know if those employees had nad any previous kind of exposure to any of the fibrogenic dust do you know the answer to that question A. I don't understand the question Q. All right Prior to the time that they came into the employ of Unarco or Union Asbestos and Rubber Company presumably these people would have worked some other place in their lifetime A. I assume Q. And affirmatively you don't know what their prior exposure history was do you A. Roemer did Q. A. Dr. Jacob Roemer did Yes Q. And the Union Asbestos and Rubber Company Was not in itself a ship yard was it Roemer - cross 57 A. No. Q. No ships were there A. No. Q. And there weren't shipyard workers in your plant or anything like that A. No. Q. Do you know anything about the allocations of asbestos fibers that is how much the Union Asbestos and Rubber Company plant could 10 get from the government at any time Do you know 11 anything about that 12 A. NO I do not 13 Q. The products that the Union Asbestos 14 and Rubber Company made for the government were 15 asbestos products 16 A. Oh yes 17 Q. Do you know if they were made to 18 specification 19 A. oh I'm positive they were 20 Q. Did you have anything to do -- strike 21 that 22 Do you know where the specifications 23 came from 24 A. I assume they came from the government 25 Q. To where were the products manufactured 3 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 24 25 Roemer - Cross 58 at the Paterson yard shipped Do you know where they were shipped to when they made these asbestos blankets Where did they go in Paterson A. I assume they were to ship to the Brooklyn Navy Yard or Camden or NO or Camden yes The Philadelphia Navy Yard Q. Did you have any discussions with either Mr. Cryor or Shuman about who ultimately got the products Was it the government who got the products A. They had no other customer except the government Q. I see Q. Now you mentioned that Mr. Kuhn and Mr. Lodge came Do you recall or in your discussions with Mr. Cryor and Mr. Shuman did they mention whether government people were there from time to time at the plant or came to visit the plant or did you meet any of them or can you give us any information about how regularly if at all the government came to the plant and what they did there - A. I must say that I know that -- I know| we had this Wright Aeronautical plant in Paterson and other defense plants in Paterson I know of 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - cross 59 no defense plant that didn't have inspection by the government Q. And this would include -- A. Would include Union Asbestos Q. Do you know anything about emergency price controls as they might have affected the production at the Union and Asbestos Rubber Company A. I don't know anything about that Q. When Mr. Lodge was there with you do you know if he was a representative of the War Department at that time A. No. He was a representative of the Department of Defense Q. The Department of Defense A. Yes Q. In his capacity as the commander of the United States Navy A. Yes Q. Do you know whether this production award was for great accomplishment for production of War equipment A. That Was one of the items Q. In the E Flag Award A. In the E Flag Award 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - cross 60 Q. And this was an award bestowed as a highest honor for men and women in American industry A. That's right Q. Now you mentioned insurance Were the rates high for insurance at that time A. For - Q. Company A. For the Union Asbestos and Rubber You said they had become insured Yes Q. Were the rates high A. The company didn't insure us All we paid them was the cost of processing the workmen's compensation cases Q. I'm sorry A. In other words they handled these cases as if they were the insurers but they weren't the insurers Q. Did you try to obtain insurance A. Oh yes No question about that We were finally compelled to become insurers Q. And I assume that the rates were too high or you would have obtained insurance S that correct A. No. The rate had nothing to do with 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - Cross 61 it. Q. Now Union Asbestos and Rubber Company was not a supporter a monetary supporter of Saranac Lake Is that correct A. To the best of my knowledge no Q. When you went there you were not -- part of the Saranac Lake Foundation A. No. So far as I know Q. I'm just asking for your best information And you had not participated in the Saranac McIntyre seminars or Saranac seminars A. I didn't participate in any 0 You were not a member of their supporting group Is that correct A. I had no contact with them at all prior to this incident Q. Now you mentioned the asbestos blanket that was made at that plant Is that correct A. Yes Q. Do you know if they ever made any molded pipe covering at that plant during the war years A. To the best of my knowledge no MR PARNELL I would like1 minute nn nn Fere@ereem STADTAM STADTAM STADTAM STADTAM STADTAM wmf rem e ee e ee ee ee ee Roemer - Cross 62 break if I may MR BAGNI Certainly Recess was taken MR PARNELL I have no further questions MR BACNI I have a couple of questions REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR BAGNI Q. Mr. Parnell asked you a question about 10 specifications for the asbestos products that were 11 produced in the Paterson plant Do you know how 12 those particular specifications were developed 13 A. No. I had nothing to do with it 14 Q. Do you know whether Unarco solicited or 15 sought out the business of the government for the 16 production of asbestos products during 17 World War II 18 A. I don't know how anything was initiated 19 All Mr. Cohen told me was that he had been ordered 20 by the government to establish a plant either near 21 by the Philadelphia Navy Yard or the Brooklyn Navy 22 Yard 23 - Q. You don't know how the business 24 relationship between the United States and Unarco 25 Was initiated Roemer - redirect 63 A. NO I do not Q. Do you know whether for a fact or in fact the government ever inspected the Unarco Paterson plant during World War II A. I don't know exactly except it was common knowledge because I had to assist the -- especially in the case of Wright Aeronautical I had to go to another branch of the city government to get a street vacated because they wanted to 10 make sure you couldn't get into the plant unless 11 you went through a gate You see And the main 12 entrance was on the street in Paterson and the 13 City of Paterson S an old city It's founded in 14 1791 so the streets aren't all that wide so that 15 vacating even a narrow street S a very serious 16 matter in Paterson so Wright Aeronautical were 17 complaining that the government had ordered them 18 to put an iron gate across the street and they 19 said we can't do it because it's a public street 20 So we had it vacated It was only upon my urging 21 that the City of Paterson consented to the 22 23 vacation - Q. of the street s it fair to say you are merely 24 inferring from that particular situation of the 25 government with that particular company that the 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - redirect 64 government inspected the Paterson Unarco plant A. I know that for example that even the Russian government who were having engines made at Wright Aeronautical in Paterson they had Russian inspectors there They weren't depending on Wright Aeronautical exclusively It was common knowledge Russian inspectors lived in Paterson so long their children went to public school with my children Q. I have one last question You mention in your direct examination and also in response to a question by Mr. Parnell that Unarco - or that you on Unarco's behalf had a difficult time obtaining worker's compensation insurance A. That's right Q And I believe Mr. Parnell asked you if that was because the rates were too high and I believe your answer was no A. That's right Q. Could you tell us why you were unable A. They refused to insure the workers within as the plant approached Every company that they Q. Do you know why they refused to insure the company 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Roemer - redirect 65 A. I have no -- I really must answer that no MR BAGNI Thank you sir I don't have anything further MR HOLLINGSWORTH Thank you Mr. Roemer further MR PARNELL I don't have anything Whereupon the proceedings were concluded at 11:45 a.m. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT REPORTERS 66 CERTIFICATE I CAROL ANN BRUMETT a Notary Public and Certified Shorthand Reporter of the State of New Jersey do hereby certify that prior to the commencement of the examination CHARLES H. ROEMER was duly sworn by me to testify the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that the foregoing 10 is a true and accurate transcript of the testimony 11 as taken stenographically by and before me at the 12 time place and on the date hereinbefore set 13 forth 14 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither 15 a relative nor employee nor attorney nor counsel 16 of any of the parties to this action and that I 17 am neither a relative nor employee of such 18 attorney or counsel and that I am not financially 19 interested in the action 20 Carol CanBrume 21 Notary Public of the State of New Jersey 22 23 My Commission expires November 30 1986 Dated 4/26/84 24 25 I Charles H Roemer do hereby certify that I have read the foregoing transcript and it is a true and accurate transcript of my testimony in the above matter Kid 225 Charles H. Roemer 10 11 Sworn and subscribed t 12 before me 30 13 this Key 14 dy 1984 15 Notary Public 16 MCDO A.NMCNDOENNLELLL 17 ty Notary MCDON EL Feb. se 18 19 220 21 23 24 25 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COUR boi ce FEDERAL SQUARE NEWARK NEW JERDEN VER LAWYER'S NOTES Verdan should be pardon be DISTRICT UNITED STATES COURT REPORTERS FEDERAL SQUARE NEWARK NEW JERSEY 07101