Document rpbwnzxwnJZw69pE3pdm2z7br

ORIGINAL 1 1 IN THE COMMONWEALTH COURT OF PENNSYLVANIA 2 PENNSYLVANIA DEPARTMENT OF GENERAL THIS DEPOSITION IS TO BE 3 SERVICES, PENNSYLVANIA DEPARTMENT READ & SIGNED AND RETURNED TO THE DEPOSING ATTORNEY: SEE INSTRUCTIONS TO WITNESS 4 OF TRANSPORTATION, PENNSYLVANIA PUBLIC IN BACK OF TRANSCRIPT. 5 UTILITY COMMISSION, PENNSYLVANIA 6 EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY, and 7 PENNSYLVANIA DEPARTMENT OF STATE 8 Plaintiffs 9 Vs. NO. 284 M.D. 1990 10 UNITED STATES MINERAL PRODUCTS COMPANY, 11 CERTAINTEED CORPORATION, COURTAULDS 12 AEROSPACE, INC., CHEMREX, INC., PHILIPS 13 ELECTRONICS NORTH AMERICA CORPORATION, 14 ADVANCE TRANSFORMER COMPANY and MONSANTO 15 Defendants 16 17 18 Jurist-Begley Reporting Services 19 TOTAL LITIGATION SUPPORT 20 Philadelphia, PA New York, NY Princeton, NJ 21 215.546.1393 212.382.1330 609.844.0013 22 Wilmington, DE Nationally 23 302.426.9857 800.345.4940 24 Jurist-Begley Reporting Services PLEASE DO NOT RETURN TRANSCRIPT BACK TO COURT REPORTING AGENCY WATER PCB-SD0000020504 2 1 Oral deposition of Cumming Paton, Ph.D, 2 taken pursuant to Notice, held at the law offices of 3 White & Williams, 1800 One Liberty Place, 1650 Market Street, 4 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103, on Thursday, August 28, 5 1997, at 10:10 a.m., before John W. Begley, a Registered 6 Professional Reporter - Notary Public there being present. 7 *8 APPEARANCES: 9 HUMPHREY, FARRINGTON & MC CLAIN 10 BY: KENNETH MC CLAIN, ESQUIRE 11 221 West Lexington - Suite 400 12 Independence, MO 64051 13 Phone: 816 - 836-5050 14 Representing the Plaintiffs 15 16 MONTGOMERY, MC CRACKEN, WALKER & RHOADS, LLP 17 BY: DAVID D. LANGFITT, ESQUIRE 18 123 South Broad Street 19 Philadelphia, PA 19109 20 Phone: 215 - 772-1500 21 Representing the Defendant 22 Courtaulds Aerospace, Inc. 23 24 Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020505 3 1 CRIVELLO, CARLSON, MENTKOWSKI & STEEVES 3 BY: JOHN T. JUETTNER, ESQUIRE 3 The Empire Building 4 710 North Plankinton Avenue 5 Milwaukee, WI 53203 6 Phone: 414 - 271-7722 7 Representing the Defendant Chemrex, Inc. 8 9 WHITE & WILLIAMS 10 BY: THOMAS M. GOUTMAN, ESQUIRE 11 1800 One Liberty Place 12 1650 Market Street 13 Philadelphia, PA 19103 14 Phone: 215 - 864-7000 15 Representing the Defendant Monsanto Company 16 17 DANAHER, TEDFORD, LAGNESE & NEAL, PC 18 BY:' PAUL SLATER, ESQUIRE 19 Capitol Place 20 21 Oak Street - Suite 700 21 Hartford, CT 06106 22 Phone: 860 - 247-3666 23 Representing the Defendant 24 United States Mineral Products Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020506 4 1 2 3 KENT & MC BRIDE, P.C. 4 BY: ANNE M. MANERO, ESQUIRE 5 Two Logan Square - Suite 600 6 18th and Arch Streets 7 Philadelphia, PA 19103 8 Phone: 215 - 568-1800 9 Representing the Defendants 10 Philips Electronics North America Corporation 11 and Advance Transformer Company 12 13 HOYLE, MORRIS & KERR 14 BY: ERIC B. HENSON, ESQUIRE 15 One Liberty Place 16 1650 Market Street - Suite 4900 17 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 18 Phone: 215 - 981-5700 19 Representing the Defendant CertainTeed 20 Corporation 21 22 23 24 Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020507 5 1 2 INDEX 3 4 5 WITNESS PAGE 6 Cumining Paton, Ph.D 7 8 By Mr. McClain 9 By Mr. Juettner 10 8 86 11 12 EXHIBITS 13 EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE 14 Paton 1 Deposition Notice 12 15 Paton 2 Document entitled "Call Report - 29 16 Organic Division dated 6/3/70" 17 Paton 3 Document entitled "Call Report - 29 18 Organic Division 6/17/70" 19 Paton 4 20 21 Paton 5 Document entitled "Call Report Organic Division 10/4/71" Document dated 1/20/72 from 29 29 22 Cumming Paton to W.S. Clark 23 24 Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020508 1 EXHIBIT 2 Paton 6 3 4 5 Paton 7 6 7 Paton 8 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 DESCRIPTION Defendant Monsanto's Answers to Plaintiff's First Set of Interrogatories Memo to H.L.Gray from Ginnie Calloni dated 1/7/65 Document entitled "Company Confidential dated 3/25/69" 6 PAGE 31 65 70 Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020509 7 1 DEPOSITION SUPPORT INDEX 2 3 Direction to Witness Not to Answer 4 Page Line Page Line Page Line 5 42 21-23 51 17-18 89 12 6 90 15 100 '3 7 8 Request for Production of Documents 9 Page Line Page Line Page Line 10 11 12 13 14 15 Stipulations 16 Page Line Page Line Page Line 17 8 1-16 18 19 20 Questions Marked 21 Page Line Page Line Page Line 22 23 24 Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020510 8 1 THE COURT REPORTER: Usual stipulations? 2 MR. HENSON: That's fine 3 MS. MANERO: That's fine 4 MR. LANGFITT: That's fine 5 MR. JUETTNER: That's fine 6 MR. SLATER: That's fine 7 MR. MC CLAIN: That's fine 8 MR. GOUTMAN: That's fine, except the witness 9 will read and sign the transcript. 10 11 (It is hereby stipulated and 12 agreed by and among the respective parties 13 that sealing, certification 14 and filing are hereby waived, and that all 15 objections, except as to the form of the questions, 16 be reserved until the time of trial.) 17 18 CUMMING PATON, Ph.D, 19 after having been first duly sworn, was examined 20 and deposed as follows: 21 22 EXAMINATION 23 24 BY MR. MC CLAIN: Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020511 Cumxning Pa ton, Ph.D. 1 Q. Would you state your full name, please. 9 2 A. Gumming, GUMMING, Paton. 3 Q. I'm told you are Dr. Paton. 4 A. Yes, but you don't have to use that. 5 Q. Tell me what your doctorate is in. 6 A. It is in chemistry. 7 Q. And is it a Ph.D? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. When didyou receive it? 10 A. 1959. 11 Q. From whatinstitution? 12 A. University of Aberdeen, Scotland. 13 Q. When did you first go to work for Monsanto? 14 A. Initially I went to work for them in Wales, as Tom 15 just said. Immediately after I took my Ph.D, which would 16 have been 1959. 17 Q. How long did you work for them after you went to work 18 the first time? 19 A. Until some time in early '62, as I recall. 20 Q. And during that time did you have anything to do with 21 the manufacture of PCBs? 22 A. No. 23 Q. What did you do from 1962 on? 24 A. I joined the Geigy Company and I was in charge of Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020512 Camming Paton, Ph.D. 10 1 their laboratory for application, development, and customer 2 technical service and additives for plastics. 3 Q. In what country were you then? 4 A. I was in England. 5 Q. And how long were you in that job? 6 A. I stayed with Geigy for two years. 7 Q. So that's until 1964. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And then what did you do? 10 A. I decided to leave Britain for personal, family 11 reasons and set about trying to find a job outside Britain. 12 I got interviewed by a number of American companies, one of 13 whom hired me in Europe and took me to the United States. 14 Q. And what company was that? 15 A. It was -- at the time it was Diamond Alkali. I 16 believe now it is Diamond Shamrock. 17 Q. What did you do at Diamond Alkali? 18 A. There I was head of technical service for a new 19 product that they were commercializing. 20 Q. And what was it? 21 A. It was polysulfide, I believe. 22 Q. How long did you remain at Diamond Alkali? 23 A. Approximately two years. 24 Q. That takes us up to 1966. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020513 1 A. Yes. Clamming Paton, Ph.D. 11 2 Q- Did you go to work for another company after that 3 time? 4 A. I then decided that although I loved and still do the United States, hut^the career move that I made to Diamond 5 6 Shamrock wasn't the right one, so I set about looking for 7 another position and got rehired byMonsanto. 8 Q. In 1966? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What was your position with Monsanto when you came to 11 work for them at that time? 12 A. My initial position would have been some title like 13 product specialist, I believe. 14 Q. And in some introductory commentsbefore the 15 deposition Mr. Goutman indicated that in about 1968 you began 16 working for the plasticizmg di.v.is.ion? e. r 17 A. I began working for the plasticizi&ep division in '66, .er 18 but the plasticiziag division had several parts to it. I was in one related to, as he said, `fo^products related primarily 19 PVC. . . 20 RGBs', polyvinyl chloride. Are you asking me what I did in 21 '68? Is that where you are leading to? 22 MR. GOUTMAN: Go ahead. 23 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 24 Q. Yes. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020514 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 12 1 A. Then I was made a market manager for a group of 2 products which were sort of more specialized in nature, but, 3 again, in the plasticizer group or division, whatever it was 4 called back then. I can't recall. 5 Q. Did you begin working with PCBs in 1968? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. We sent a notice to take a deposition pursuant to a 8 rule in Pennsylvania called Rule 4007.1(e) asking for a 9 person that was most knowledgeable about various subjects. 10 Have you seen that? 11 A. I think that was what you showed me yesterday? 12 MR. GOUTMAN: The witness has seen it. 13 MR. MC CLAIN: Let's have it marked. I 14 didn't make copies of this for everyone. I should 15 have, but actually I didn't have a copy until last 16 night when it was faxed to me. Tom made one copy for 17 me today, but I should have asked him to make 18 additional copies. It is just the 4007.1(e) Notice 19 designation. 20 (The above-referred to document was marked as 21 Paton Exhibit 1 for identification) 22 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 23 Q. In this notice we asked Dr. Paton or Mr. Paton - 24 what do you prefer to be called? Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020515 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 1 A. Call me Mr. because that is much easier. 13 2 Q. Mr. Paton, we asked for the person from Monsanto who 3 is most knowledgeable about various subjects, and I want to 4 know if, in your judgment, you are that person who is as 5 knowledgeable as anyone within the company on these subjects. 6 The first one is the manufacture of PCBs 7 during the period '50 through '82. 8 MR. GOUTMAN: I would just interpose an 9 objection. The decision to select Dr. Paton was not 10 Dr. Paton's; it was ours as counsel, so he is not 11 privy to the thought processes of counsel as to why 12 Dr. Paton was selected for this purpose. 13 MR. MC CLAIN: I'm not asking him that at 14 all. I'm just asking him if, in his judgment, 15 there's someone that is more knowledgeable than he is 16 on these subjects within the company. 17 MR. GOUTMAN: I would also, and this 18 objection was raised in a letter to you, I think, 19 dated July 21st, I believe the subject encompassed in 20 number one, the manufacture of PCBs, is overly broad 21 and outside the scope of the permitted discovery 22 pursuant to the court's frequently amended case 23 management order. 24 MR. MC CLAIN: I'm just trying to figure out Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020516 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 14 1 whether he thinks that he fits any of these 2 categories or just what his level of knowledge is, 3 and this is as good a way to go about this as any. 4 We can fight about whether or not you have got to 5 produce someone else at some other time, but that's 6 really not my purpose. 7 THE WITNESS: In the period 1968 to about 8 1970, whenever I moved to the North American 9 position, I would have probably been the one that 10 would have been looked to be most knowledgeable about 11 the sales and the marketing of the PCBs, the 12 marketing responsibility for PCBs in the plasticizer 13 area, I might add, because there were other uses 14 for PCBs that I was not involved with at that time. 15 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 16 Q. We can talk about them in just a minute. 17 A. Okay. Sure. 18 Q. Does your answer likewise apply to item number two in 19 the notice, the sale or supply of PCBs? 20 MR. GOUTMAN: I think he was addressing item 21 number two. 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 MR. GOUTMAN: I don't think he has ever made 24 a claim for expertise in the manufacture of PCBs, but Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020517 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 1 you can explore that with him. 15 2 MR. MC CLAIN: That's what I want to know. 3 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't make a claim for 4 number one. 5 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 6 Q. What division would such a person be associated with 7 in your view that would be knowledgeable about that subject? 8 A. I can't recall exactly now how the organic division 9 was organized at that time. I suspect it was along a 10 functional line where there would have been a manufacturing 11 department within the division, marketing, sales, and so on, 12 but given this lapse of time I couldn't swear that that was 13 100 percent. That was my recollection. 14 Q. As being associated with marketing, did you interact 15 with the manufacturing division on a frequent basis or was 16 that function completely separate from - 17 A. No, I would have interacted. 18 Q. You would have interacted? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Can you recall any of the individuals that you 21 interacted with in the manufacturing division during that 22 time period regarding the manufacture of PCBs? 23 A. No, not anymore. 24 Q. If you look at number two it talks about various Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020518 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 16 1 entities to which PCBs might have been sold, and you 2 responded to some Interrogatories with documents about some 3 of these companies. We are going to talk about them. Do you 4 have familiarity with any of these companies? 5 A. CertainTeed, I reviewed some product shipping 6 documents yesterday that I recalled CertainTeed as a 7 corporation. 8 Q. Gustin Bacon, did you remember them? 9 A. I didn't and I still can't recollect them. 10 Q. Products Research and Chemical Company, did you 11 remember them? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you remember SonnebornBuildingProducts 14 Division? 15 A. I was refreshed when I saw some documents. 16 Q. So you do recall them? 17 A. I do recall them vaguely now, yes. 18 Q. Now, did you ever sell PCBs to Philips Electronics 19 North American Corporation or Advance Transformer Company, as 20 far as you know? 21 A. I can't recall. dr 22 Q. Not within the plasticizing- division anyway? dr . 23 A. In the plasticizing division these names don't ring a 24 bell, I'm sure. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020519 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 17 1 Q. What other divisions of Monsanto utilized or sold 2 PCBs? 3 A. At what period in time are you talking? 4 Q. This same period, '68 through '72. 5 A. There was another group. I cannot recall at all now 6 whether it was just one or more than one and what the titles 7 were. I can't remember that. 8 Q. What uses did that group sell PCBs for? 9 A. I cannot -- at that point in time I'm not sure how 10 much I would have really known about these other divisions. 11 Q. Did you sell PCBs for use in transformers or light 12 ballasts? 13 That was not what you were selling them for? 14 A. Not at that point. 15 MR. GOUTMAN: You mean this witness as 16 opposed to Monsanto corporately? 17 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. 18 THE WITNESS: No. 19 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 20 Q. No? 21 A. No. 22 Q. That was not whatthe plasticiz.mtg-'*' d.i.v.is.ion was 23 marketing them for? 24 A. Not to myknowledge, that's right. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020520 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 18 1 Q. Did Monsanto sell PCBs for those uses, use in 2 transformers and light ballasts and such things? 3 A. I believe they did. 4 Q. What division did that? Do you know? 5 A. It would have been within the organic division. What 6 the title of the group was I cannot recall at this point in 7 time. 8 Q. Let's back up just for a moment. 9 What are PCBs? 10 A. Polychlorinated biphenyls. 11 Q. And if you were going to describe, I know as a 12 chemist you have a clear understanding of what that means, 13 but if you were going to describe that to a layman, what is a 14 polychlorinated biphenyl? 15 MR. GOUTMAN: I believe questions of this 16 sort are beyond the scope of the permitted discovery 17 at this point. We are not presenting this witness as 18 an expert chemist; we are presenting him as somebody 19 who can give you some insight as to who we sold our 20 products to -- 21 MR. MC CLAIN: I understand. 22 MR. GOUTMAN: But subject to that objection 23 and assuming that you are not going to carry on too 24 far with this. I'll permit the witness to answer the Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020521 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 1 question. 19 2 MR. MC CLAIN; Go ahead. Doctor. 3 MR. HENSON: Mr. McClain, may we have an 4 agreement that objections stated by one party will - 5 MR. MC CLAIN: More than suffice. 6 MR. HENSON: --be more than sufficient so 7 that we don't have to interrupt and qualify? 8 MR. MC CLAIN: You are right. 9 MR. HENSON: Thank you. 10 THE WITNESS: Well, a biphenyl is a product 11 where you take two benzene rings that have been 12 joined together. As I recollect, it is a solid 13 material. And you can then take that biphenyl and 14 you can do various chemical reactions on it and 15 produce other products. In the case of 16 polychlorinated biphenyls, what you are doing is 17 chlorinating the biphenyls and you produce materials 18 that have more than one chlorine atom, as it would be 19 described, on the biphenyl, because if you only have 20 one it is a mono; two or more it is called poly. 21 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 22 Q. Why is that useful in a product? 23 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. That's overly 24 broad. What products? Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020522 Gumming Paton, Ph.D. 20 1 MR. MC CLAIN: I'm trying to understand -- 2 for plasticizers, and then we can talk about for 3 insulating oils if necessary. 4 MR. GOUTMAN: Go ahead. 5 THE WITNESS: One of the perceived benefits, 6 at least -- well, not perceived, the real benefits at 7 that time of these products was that the chlorine 8 gave the product fire resistance, flame retardance, 9 so from a safety standpoint in uses that was very 10 important. There were other uses which would 11 tend to get detailed and specific, depending on what 12 resin you used and what the application was, and I 13 wouldn't claim to know all of these, nor was I 14 necessarily privy to it, because the customers would 15 often keep this information as proprietary to 16 themselves. 17 BY MR., MC CLAIN: 18 Q. Monsanto had a trade name, Aroclor, for PCB products. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Was that true when you came to work in 1966? 21 A. I have no reason to think it wasn't. Certainly I was 22 aware of it in 1968. 23 Q. Were there any other manufacturers of PCBs under 24 other trade names in the United States from 1968 through '72? Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020523 Gumming Paton, Ph.D. 21 1 A. You mean manufacturers within the United States? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. I can't recall any. 4 Q. Is it fair to say that within this country Monsanto 5 had virtually the entire market for PCBs? 6 A. That might not necessarily be accurate, no. 7 Q. Why not? 8 A. Becausethere were other producers of PCBs outside 9 the United States. 10 Q. Do you ever recall having competition from outside 11 the United States for your plasticizing division in selling 12 products? 13 A. I can't recall specifics of accountsspecifically, 14 but I certainly was aware of companies that produced them 15 outside it. And yesterday, as I recall, I saw a document 16 which indicated that some company indeed was importing at 17 some point in time. 18 Q. What company was that? What document was it that you 19 saw? 20 A. I can't recall. It was one - 21 MR. GOUTMAN: It was Sonneborn, which is 22 in production folder number four. 23 THE WITNESS: I think it was Sonneborn. 24 MR. GOUTMAN: I don't know the Bates stamp Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020524 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 1 number off the top of my head. 22 2 THE WITNESS: I think it was Sonneborn. 3 MR. GOUTMAN: Do you want me to find that 4 now? 5 MR. MC CLAIN: You don't need to find it now. 6 We can find it at a break, if you like. Just give me 7 the date of it and I can find it because I have it 8 broken down by dates. 9 MR. GOUTMAN: I don't know the date. I think 10 it was after 1970. 11 MR. MC CLAIN: If you find the document it 12 will have a date on it, won't it? 13 MR. GOUTMAN: I'm just asking you do you want 14 me to take the time to find the document now? 15 MR. MC CLAIN: We can do it on a break. 16 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 17 Q. What is a plasticizer? 18 A. A plasticizer - 19 MR. GOUTMAN: I will interpose the same 20 objection, that this witness is not being presented 21 by Monsanto as its expert on chemistry and this 22 witness makes no pretensions in that regard. Subject 23 to that objection, the witness can answer the 24 question as best he can. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020525 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 23 1 THE WITNESS: A plasticizer, probably most 2 simply stated is something that softens a plastic. 3 Makes it more flexible. 4 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 5 Q. And why were PCBs added to plasticizers? 6 A. Well, I think this - 7 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of the 8 question. 9 Go ahead. 10 THE WITNESS: The fact that the name might 11 have been the plasticizer division or plasticizer 12 group, but every product in that group, although most 13 of them had a use as an additive in plastics, they 14 were not necessarily plasticizing or softening it, so 15 my recollection is that in certain plastics PCBs were 16 not used at all, or if they were to a very, very 17 limited extent. Polyvinyl chloride being one, as I 18 recall. I could stand corrected because I obviously 19 didn't know what each and every customer did. 20 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 21 Q. So merely because the plasticizing division sold 22 Aroclors to a company didn't mean that they used it as a 23 plasticizer; is that correct? 24 A. If you think of plasticizer in the technical sense of Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020526 Gumming Paton, Ph.D. 1 what a plasticizer is, correct. 24 2 Q. But Monsanto would sell through the plasticizing 3 division for other purposes. 4 A. Other purposes. 5 Q. How did you go about marketing this product to 6 companies? What then was the way that you would sell to 7 companies? 8 MR. GOUTMAN: Can we just clarify which 9 product you are talking about? Aroclors? 10 MR. MC CLAIN: Aroclors, yes. 11 THE WITNESS: Well, the business had been in 12 place before I joined it. I obviously inherited what 13 my predecessor had done. I was obviously trying to 14 increase the business because customers' business was 15 increasing. I would therefore be giving commercial 16 direction to the field sales force in terms of 17 carrying out our budgets and our plans^ I would be, 18 to some extent, giving them some help in trying to 19 address questions that the customers would bring up 20 of a commercial/technical nature that the 21 salespersons didn't feel able to handle without some backup^ ^nd I also was the -- what's the word I'm 22 23 looking for. It is a job where there's a great deal 24 of liaison with other departments: Manufacturing, Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020527 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 25 1 production forecasting, order and billing, customer 2 technical service, so I was a gateway, if you like. 3 for the field sales force and customers to -sales to 4 Monsanto to answer questions if I could, know where 5 to put them to get support and follow up, if 6 necessary^ So sometimes the questions, if they were 7 sufficiently technical, I would go to the people that 8 had the more technical capability than I did in that 9 area^ and go TO in it, and follow up, 10 channel it back to thgjD^the salesperson. 11 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 12 Q. Did you ever, in your job responsibility, visit any 13 of the companies that you sold products to? 14 A. Oh, yes. 15 Q. Any of those that are mentioned within this grouping? 16 "This" being Exhibit 1. (Indicating) 17 A. This A to I on page two? 18 Q. Yes, sir. 19 A. I possibly could have visited Products Research. I 20 vaguely remember I might have, but I couldn't swear to it 21 now. Sonneborn I can't recall visiting them, but yesterday I 22 saw reference to conversations that I had with a gentleman 23 there, so somehow or another I must have met him. 24 MR. MC CLAIN: Do you have that document with Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020528 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 1 you, Tom? 26 2 MR. GOUTMAN: Yes. 3 MR. MC CLAIN: I'll look at that on the same 4 break, if you are willing to show it to me. 5 MR. GOUTMAN: Sure. 6 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 7 Q. Any visits to CertainTeed? 8 A. I can't recall any. 9 Q. Would other individuals within the company have 10 visited your customers like you visited Sonneborn and 11 Products Research from time to time? 12 MR. JUETTNER: Objection to the form of the 13 question. 14 MR. GOUTMAN: I also object. Did they? 15 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes, did they? 16 MR. GOUTMAN: Just so I'm clear, did all of 17 Monsanto's customers get visits from sales people? 18 MR. MC CLAIN: No. Did those that are on 19 this list. 20 THE WITNESS: I can't say. 21 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 22 Q. Was it the general practice of Monsanto to visit your 23 customers? 24 A. Yes, I would say yes. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020529 1 Q. Why? Cuiaming Pa ton, Ph.D. 27 2 A. Well, I can speak in my case. In my case there would 3 be two reasons. One, a request by the salesman to come in to 4 assist them in whatever was happening at that customer at the 5 time involving our products. And that would have been the 6 way it would have normally happened in my case. Sometimes 7 customers would call me direct and I would then relay that 8 back to the sales force. That might lead to some follow-up 9 and a suggestion that I go and visit. 10 Q. Did Monsanto provide technical assistance to 11 customers who desired it? 12 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. It is overly broad. 13 Monsanto had millions of customers. 14 MR. MC CLAIN: I'm talking about customers of e-r 15 the plasticiziag division. 16 MR. GOUTMAN: They had thousands of 17 customers for the plasticizmg division. That xs an 18 overly broad question. Please narrow it down. Which 19 customers are we talking about? 20 MR. MC CLAIN: Let's talk about the ones on 21 this list, the ones that you know about. Products 22 Research, Sonneborn as examples. 23 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 24 Q. Did you provide technical assistance to them in the Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020530 Cummlng Paton, Ph.D. 28 1 use of AroClors in their products? 2 A. I can't recall that with the -- I can't recall us 3 doing much of that in any of these. (Indicating) 4 MR. GOUTMAN: Referring to A through I? 5 THE WITNESS: Referring to A through I. 6 Possibly given documentation that I saw yesterday, 7 there was reference to Sonneborn. I cannot recall 8 anything being requested of me or coming through me, 9 and the odds are it would have come through me or my 10 assistant on those other customers. 11 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 12 Q. After having your recollection on that refreshed, 13 what was the technical assistance being offered to Sonneborn? 14 A. I think it had to do with replacing PCBs. 15 Q. What year was that? 16 A. I'm going to say 1970, but the document would be 17 there and we can get the exact date. 18 MR. MC CLAIN: Why don't we do that if you 19 have that handy? 20 MR. GOUTMAN: It's not handy. I will look 21 through them. 22 Off the record. 23 (Off the record discussion) 24 MR. GOUTMAN: Back on the record. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020531 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 29 1 I pulled out some of the documents and will 2 show them to the witness. I don't know if they are 3 all the documents that he is thinking of. They are 4 Bates stamp numbers 821, 849, 858, 859. 5 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 6 Q. Do you want to look at them? Are these the documents 7 that you were shown that refreshed your recollection about 8 having contact with Sonneborn? 9 A. Two of them -- three of them are. 10 These are all Clark. (Indicating) 11 MR. GOUTMAN: Clark is his successor. 12 THE WITNESS: Okay. That was probably what I 13 was thinking about. But these are the ones that I 14 had in mind that talk about us, I don't know if we 15 did work, but at least talking to them about other 16 products. 17 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 18 Q. Let me just ask you some general questions. We will 19 mark these in sequence as two, three, four, and five. 20 (The above-referred to documents were marked, 21 respectively, as Paton Exhibits 2 through 5 for 22 identification) 23 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 24 Q. Let's take Sonneborn for a moment. Do you know what Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020532 Cumming Pa ton, Ph.D. 30 1 Sonneborn was using Aroclors for, for what products or what 2 purposes? 3 A. Specifically, no. 4 Q. In general do you know? 5 MR. JUETTNER: Objection to the form of the 6 question. 7 MR. MC CLAIN: You can answer. 8 MR. GOUTMAN: You can answer. 9 THE WITNESS: I recall that Sonneborn would 10 have belonged in a group of companies that I regarded 11 as being part of the adhesives and sealants industry, 12 and that is about the extent of my recollection. 13 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 14 Q. When you say "adhesives and sealants industry", do 15 you know whether they make caulk? Was that a sealant? 16 MR. GOUTMAN: What's your question? Did they 17 make caulk or is that a sealant? 18 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 19 Q. Is caulk a sealant in your view? 20 A. I probably would have associated it with a sealant. 21 Now, whether I'm strictly correct or not, I probably would 22 have regarded that as a sealant. 23 Q. Did Aroclors have uses in caulks? 24 A. I can't think specifically of caulks. I think of it Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020533 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 1 more in the terminology of sealants and adhesives. 31 2 Q. Why were Aroclors useful in sealants in the view of Monsanto? 3 A. One recollection I have is that they had properties 4 that manufacturers of these products were looking for fee-j2-' 5 v_5*give, to "tactify" the resins, to make them sticky and adhere 6 to the surfaces to which they were applied. 7 Q. Now, you had mentioned resins a couple of times. Are 8 you talking about the resins that the Aroclors were added to - - 9 A. I would be talking about the resins, plastics, 10 polymers, depending on what terminology that you want to use, 11 that the Aroclors would be added to. ' 12 Q. Now, how were the Interrogatory Answers that we have 13 that we will mark as Exhibit 6 - 14 A. Where do you want me to look or read? 15 MR. GOUTMAN: Off the record. 16 (Off the record discussion) 17 (The above-referred to document was 18 marked as Paton Exhibit 6 for identification) 19 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 20 Q. Back on the record. 21 These are questions that were posed to 22 Monsanto that Mr. Goutman's office prepared and then he 23 signed on the last page, but I think they attempt to 24 summarize the sales of Aroclors to these companies which Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020534 Cumming Pa ton, Ph.D. 32 1 these invoices I think reflect fairly closely in terms of 2 quantities. I haven't made a total yet, but they appear to 3 be close. 4 Looking at actually page six, which details 5 the sales to Sonneborn, because we are dealing with them now, 6 these Aroclors that were sold to Sonneborn during this time 7 period, 1242, 48, 54, 60, 62, and 68, what is the 8 significance of the differing numbers associated with those 9 Aroclors? 10 A. Well, this is one thing I do recall, so my memory 11 hasn't totally faded. 12, the first two digits, 1-2, refer 12 to biphenyls, I believe. 13 Yes, biphenyls. 14 Q. So every biphenyl mentioned by Monsanto would bear a 15 12 number. 16 A. An Aroclor manufactured by Monsanto that was based in 17 biphenyls would have the first two digits as 12. Then the 18 second two digits refer to the percentage of chlorine in the 19 PCB, so 1242 meant that it was a biphenyl chlorinated to 42 20 percent by weight, I believe, and so on, and 68 would be 68 21 percent. 22 Q. Now, you mentioned, you said something, you said an 23 Aroclor based on biphenyl. 24 A. Yes. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020535 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 33 1 Q. Could you explain what an Aroclor that was not based 2 on biphenyl would be? 3 A. Yes, that would be a terphenyl. 4 Q. So it would be a three - 5 A. Three, correct. 6 Q. And what were those products utilized for? 7 A. Some of them were u&eA^ I think, in the plasticizer 8 group when I was in it, would-have sold"some u- fehes-e 9 ~v^J>Lproduc.t-g for use in resins to certain customers. 10 Q. For what purposes were terphenyls -- ? 11 A. . Terphenyls, 12 Q. -- utilized for that differed from biphenyls? 13 A. Terphenyls, even chlorinated terphenyls, the best of 14 my recollection, I think they tended to be higher or more 15 viscous, but I think in general they were all solids. I 16 think. Now, again, I might be wrong in one or two cases, and 17 therefore they would have higher melting points, therefore 18 they would be used where the specifications called for 19 different things. The customer specifications; not ours. 20 Q. So these would typically, the terphenyls would 21 typically be solids that were sold to companies for use? 22 A. I think that's a fairly accurate statement. 23 Q. And can you tell me about their density? Were they a 24 dense product? If I was a customer receiving a terphenyl Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020536 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 1 what would it look like? 34 2 A. It would be a white, yellow kind of a powder 3 material. Maybe flake material. Again, I'm -- 4 Q. I got you. So it wouldn't be solid like a plastic; 5 it would be some type of granular material. 6 A. Yes, because it would have to be mixed, so I'm sure 7 that customers wouldn't want us to send them blocks of stuff 8 that they had to chip up. 9 Q. Sure. Let's go to the Aroclors. If I receive a 10 shipment of 1242's what is it going to look like? A. It was a liquid. As -you go--fxom^the degree of 11 12 chlorination increases, the material gets progressively more 13 viscous. In fact, at close to 1268 that might have been 14 close to being solid. 15 Q. When you say " viscous" - at 16 A. Difficult to pour. That's/\room temperature. 17 Q. And as a layman I would be looking at oils like I put 18 in my car, it would be the thicker motor oils as opposed to 19 the thinner motor oils as you get progressively -- 20 MR. GOUTMAN: Let me object to the form of 21 the question. 22 You can answer it if you can. 23 BY MR. MC CLAIN; 24 Q. Is that a good analogy? Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020537 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 35 1 A. You know, the lower ones I cannot recall now how 2 viscous they were, but they poured, I think, at room 3 temperature as I recall, and I'm saying they got more -- it 4 would be more viscous, slower to pour as you went up in 5 chlorination, but, you know, I haven't seen an Aroclor for 6 years. 7 Q. And if we have a 1242, that's going to be easier to 8 pour than a 1262, as an example. 9 A. Yes. That's correct. 10 Q. But to a layman they would look like an oil; correct? 11 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. 12 THE WITNESS: I have no idea how a layman 13 would look -- 14 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 15 Q. How do they look to you? What color were they? 16 A. I have even forgotten that. 17 Q. Did they come in drums? 18 A. Yes. 19 Sorry. They could also come in tank trucks 20 or tank cars. 21 Q. Any type of -- 22 A. Container. 23 Q. -- container that could transport aliquid? 24 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. The types of Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020538 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 36 1 containers he said. He didn't say any type of 2 container. He said drums and he said tank cars. 3 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 4 Q. Did they come in any others? 5 A. Not that I could recall. 6 Q. Looking at the Sonneborn example -- 7 MR. GOUTMAN: Referring to page six of the 8 Answers to Interrogatories? 9 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. 10 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 11 Q. In a company that made sealants and adhesives, what 12 would be the differing -- what would be the advantages of 13 these differing Aroclors for such products? 14 MR. JUETTNER: Objection to the form of the 15 question. Foundation. 16 MR. GOUTMAN: Same objection. 17 You can answer it if you can. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 19 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 20 Q. Did you know at one time? 21 A. I doubt if I knew that at one time in any great 22 detail. 23 Q. Would anyone within the company have been responsible 24 to know the various qualities of these various Aroclors, Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020539 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 37 1 their properties, so that you could sell more of them? 2 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of the 3 question. I don't, frankly, understand the question. 4 Could you, perhaps, rephrase it so I can? 5 MR. MC CLAIN: Sure. 6 BY MR. MC CLAIN: c 7 Q. Mr. Paton, the marketing division's job was to sell 8 Aroclors; am I right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And, in fact, your goalwas tosell moreAroclors 11 every year. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Was it at all helpful, in carrying out this task, to 14 know the advantages of these various Aroclors? 15 A. You had to knowsomething about the properties, but I 16 alone or Monsanto alone couldn't say that this was the 17 product best suited for the customer because the customer 18 knew what they were looking for. Many times they chose not 19 to disclose what they were doing, but they would ask us 20 questions about, say, what the physical properties were and, yes, we would know what the physical properties wer/^ 6f the 21 22 Aroclors were. 23 Q. And do you know what the physical properties of those 24 Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020540 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 1 A. At one time I would. 38 2 Q. But you don't currently remember? 3 A. I don't know, but at the same time I also would have relied, if there were people that might have asked some 4 5 questions which I wouldn't have known, I would have gone "bo^ 6 &v\ our technical people and asked them. 7 Q. Can you recall any of the technical people you would 8 have looked to during this time to ask about the 9 characteristics of the product? 10 MR. GOUTMAN: The product is the Aroclors; 11 not the final product that is produced by the 12 customers? 13 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. That's right. 14 THE WITNESS: There's a name of a man Morgan, 15 I think, rings a bell. Possibly Joe Darby, although 16 Joe may have then given it to somebody in his 17 department. 18 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 19 Q. Is he the person that is referred to as J.R. Darby on 20 Exhibit 2? 21 A. That would be the person, yes. 22 Q. Do you know whether they are still with Monsanto? 23 A. Darby has retired, I believe, a number of years ago; 24 A1 Morgan, I have lost touch with him. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020541 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 39 1 Q. Are you still employed by Monsanto, by the way? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Are you retired? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. When did you retire? 6 A. End of 1991. 7 Q. Between '72 and '91 did youremain employed with 8 Monsanto? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And what were your jobs after '121 11 A. '72 I became a product manager in a group of products 12 that were fluids, known as fluids within the company, and I 13 was involved with that until, I'm going to say, 1977, 1978, I 14 believe. 15 Q. What did you do after '78? 16 A. Then I think I had a spell as director of development 17 for a division in the organic area. 18 Q,, For how long were you director of development? 19 A. That might have been a year, two years at the most. 20 I then went to Brazil. 21 Q. In what capacity? 22 A. I was a commercial director for our chemical business 23 in Brazil. 24 Q. For how long? Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020542 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 40 1 A. For about three years. Then I got another assignment 2 in Brazil. 3 Q. So in 1983 what did you do? 4 A. I then moved -- we were involved in trying to build 5 up our investment internationally, and my role was to try to 6 double, plan how we were going to double our investment in 7 Brazil in about a five year period. 8 Q. And how long did you remain in that job? 9 A. I remained there until about the end of 1985. 10 Q. Then what did you do? 11 A. I came back to St. Louis and reported to the head of 12 our international operations/ in charge of the administration, 13 global business development, business development, and 14 liaisoned with the heads of our/jvarious areas, and I was in 15 that role for two years or so. Then I got involved, we were ^ 16 trying to enter Korea, so I was in charge of negotiations as 17 to how we could have a joint venture in Korea. Then some 18 time in 1987, as I recall, I was asked to go to Korea to head 19 up the joint venture on the Monsanto side with a Korean 20 group. I was there for about three-and-a-half years. 21 Q. And then you retired? 22 A. No, I came back to St. Louis and was head of business A .. 23 development for Asia Pacific^ ^spent most of my time trying to 24 put together a three way joint venture for a big investment Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020543 1 in Thailand. Gumming Paton, Ph.D. 41 2 Then Monsanto announced they were 3 restructuring and there were opportunities to consider 4 retiring. My goal to retire from there was 1994, but I 5 decided, when I saw what the financial advantages were, to me 6 it made more financial sense to leave, to retire then, and 7 Monsanto then asked me, T'"the^'consultd^for them until the 8 Thailand project was approved by the Board the Directors. 9 Q. Which was in what year? 10 A. I'm going to say that was some time end of '92, '93. 11 Somewhere around then. 12 Q. Do you still consult for Monsanto? 13 A. I have consulted with them once since then. 14 Q. And are they paying for your time here today? 15 A. At this deposition? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. No. 18 Q. What was the situation that you consulted with them 19 after '92? 20 A. It had to do with -- it was a relationship between 21 them and a company in Germany. 22 Q. Back to Sonneborn, do you recall the discontinuation 23 of Aroclors in this 1970 time period? 24 A. I think -- well, when I went to the position in Latin Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020544 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 42 1 America they were still selling these products in their 2 plasticizer area. 3 Q. And that would have been - 4 A. I think it was 1970, I believe. It was some time in 5 the 1970 to 1971 time frame. I can't recollect the exact 6 dates now. 7 Q. Did you have any knowledge that the products were 8 going to be discontinued when you went to South America, the 9 Aroclor products? 10 A. Not that I recall. 11 Q. When you left the division was there any controversy 12 about their use? 13 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. 14 Don't answer the question. 15 It is beyond the scope of the deposition 16 notice and the case management order. 17 MR. MC CLAIN: I think it directly relates to 18 product identification 19 MR. GOUTMAN: Well, it doesn't and he's not 20 answering the question. 21 MR. MC CLAIN: So you are instructing him not 22 to answer the question? 23 MR. GOUTMAN: Yes. 24 BY MR. MC CLAIN: Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020545 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 43 1 Q. Mr. Paton, are you going to follow his direction to 2 you? 3 A. Absolutely. 4 MR. GOUTMAN: He's not going to answer that 5 question. I'm his attorney and I'm not going to 6 permit him to answer the question. 7 MR. MC CLAIN: What are you going to do; 8 wrestle him to the ground if he wants to answer? 9 THE WITNESS: Mr. Goutman - 10 MR. GOUTMAN: There's no question pending. 11 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 12 Q. In this 1972 time period. Dr. Paton, there's a 13 doc\ament here. Exhibit 5, which deals with a conversation 14 that you had with a man named Schwerd. Is that the way you 15 would say his name? 16 A. I guess. The name doesn't ring a bell with me at all 17 now. I don't dispute this, that I wrote this at the time. 18 Q. What brought you into this situation in '72? Weren't 19 you in Latin America at this time? 20 A. From the period from some time probably early '70, as 21 best I recall, until I think again early '72 or maybe the 22 very end of 1971 I was a marketing manager for Monsanto's 23 organic products for Latin America. Then I was asked to 24 consider taking a position reporting to the director of Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020546 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 44 1 marketing for the fluids, what was known as the fluids group, 2 with responsibility initially I believe for heat transfer 3 fluids. I decided to accept that position. 4 Q. Were PCBs being utilized for heat transfer fluids in 5 1972? 6 A. Some of the Monsanto line of heat transfer fluids at 7 that time were PCBs, yes. 8 Q. Was there discussion at that time of discontinuing 9 them? 10 MR. GOUTMAN: Well, what does this have to do 11 with this case? There are no heat transfer fluids 12 implicated in your Complaint or in any investigation 13 that I have seen in the Transportation - 14 MR. MC CLAIN: I have no idea. That's what 15 I'm trying to figure out. 16 MR. GOUTMAN: You should have some idea. 17 There has been discovery now for seven years. There 18 are no heat transfer fluids indicated -- 19 MR. MC CLAIN: You know this is the first 20 Monsanto witness we have taken, so that's 21 disingenuous. Unless U.S. Minerals' witnesses had 22 some probing knowledge about heat transfer fluids, 23 that's a specious objection. And I am circumscribing 24 this and being very patient about this, but I don't Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020547 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 45 1 want to be interfered with. 2 MR. GOUTMAN: I appreciate your being 3 patient, sir, but there are no heat transfer fluids 4 that have been implicated by your experts, by your 5 testing, and I don't know why you are asking these 6 questions unless you are not familiar with your own 7 testing. 8 MR. MC CLAIN: I'm glad to have your 9 testimony about this subject. 10 MR. GOUTMAN: Tell me where there are heat 11 fluid implications in the Transportation - 12 MR. MC CLAIN: I'm asking questions of this 13 witness. 14 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 15 Q. Dr. Paton, in 1972 what uses in the fluids division 16 were PCBs being utilized for? 17 A. They were being used -- sorry. PCBs? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. They were being used in systems to heat equipment. 20 Q. Did that include transformers? 21 A. At that time I don't think I had responsibility for 22 transformers, transformer fluids, but I can't recall. 23 Q. What were ballast fluids, whatdivision were they 24 part of? Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020548 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 46 1 MR. GOUTMAN: Ballasts in fluorescent lights? 2 Is that what you mean? 3 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. 4 THE WITNESS: The fluids area had, again, 5 several parts to it. That would have been in the 6 part known as dielectrics. When I first joined the 7 fluids group, and it had to be very close to this 8 date, the -- (Indicating) 9 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 10 Q. "This date" being the date shown on Exhibit 5. 11 A. From this particular Exhibit 5, January of 1972, I 12 recollect that my first area of responsibility was the heat 13 transfer fluids. I may have had the others then. I had them 14 later, but I can't recall that I had them this early. 15 Q. Mr. Goutman raises a good point. What were heat 16 transfer fluids used for? 17 MR. GOUTMAN: I appreciate your comment that 18 I raised a good point. 19 MR. MC CLAIN: You are welcome. 20 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 21 Q. See, Dr. Paton, I'm not an expert in this area: I'm 22 just trying to find out this whole area of Aroclors which you 23 knew about at one time, and I recognize that you have moved 24 on from, but I'm trying to understand what they are used for, Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020549 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 47 1 so what are these being used for in this heat transfer 2 area. 3 A. You can heat things by hot water, as you well know, 4 but hot water has limitations in how hot you can heat 5 something. 6 Q. I understand. 7 A. If you get into processing equipment you need higher 8 temperatures, and so therefore you can go to synthetic 9 materials, you can use mineral oils or more synthetic 10 products. PCB was more synthetic. It had the advantage, 11 since it was chlorinated, that it had fire resistance. 12 Q. So it could be heated to higher temperatures. 13 A. Heated to higher temperatures, and many customers 14 felt that the advantages of having a chlorinated material was 15 very good because if there was a breakage or rupture in the 16 line then you would minimize fire damage. 17 Q. So were you responsible for dielectrics when you came 18 back to the fluid? 19 A. At some time frame end of '71, early '72, through to 20 somewhere maybe '77, at some point in time I took on 21 responsibility for all of the products that had PCBs in them. 22 I don't think I had it as early as this particular exhibit. 23 (Indicating) 24 Q. When did you take over for all products that had PCBs Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020550 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 48 1 in them? 2 A. It evolved over that period of time, and so I cannot 3 sit here today and say because my memory, I just don't 4 recollect. (Indicating) 5 Q. For how long after 1972 did Monsanto continue to 6 manufacture PCBs? 7 A. I think we continued on through 1977, but we phased 8 out of certain applications as time went along. 9 Q. What applications did you phase out of? 10 A. The ones that I have specific knowledge of would have P 11 been the heat transfer area and an area called ^Jydraul, which 12 is hydraulic fluids. 13 Q. Through '77 was Monsanto still selling PCBs for 14 adhesives and sealants? 15 A. I very much -- in fact, I can say almost certainly 16 they were not. 17 Q. Why not? 18 A. Because they had decided to discontinue the use in 19 the so called plasticizer type of area. 20 Q. In this time period that your memo reflects? 21 A. I think they may have done that when I had my 22 position in Latin America, but, you know, again, with this 23 lapse of time, I have a hard time pinning down exact dates, 24 but I think it was -- I'm pretty much certain it was after -- Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020551 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 49 1 it was in the time that I had this market manager position in 2 Latin America. 3 Q. Do you recall that they phased out PCBs in this 4 adhesive area? 5 A. I don't recall because I was not part of that at the 6 time. 7 MR. GOUTMAN: It is in these documents. 8 (Indicating) 9 THE WITNESS: Is it? 10 MR. GOUTMAN: That's what these documents are 11 about. 12 MR. MC CLAIN: That's what I'm asking this 13 witness about. 14 THE WITNESS: If you would want me to read 15 these again to refresh my memory I will. 16 (Indicating) 17 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. Let's get them in chronological order. Is that what 20 you want? 21 Q. They are in the way we marked them. 22 A. Okay. So I have got Exhibit 2 in front of me now. 23 Well, as you can see in one, two, three of 24 them, through '70 and '71, my name doesn't, you know, I'm not Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020552 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 50 1 the recipient. 2 Q. That's when you were in South America. 3 A. Yes, and these documents refresh me that Will Clark 4 probably was the person that took my place, and so it was on 5 his watch that I believe it appears that they were discussing 6 phasing out the Aroclors and the so called plasticizer 7 applications. 8 Q. Do you know whether he is still with Monsanto? 9 A. I'm not sure whether he is or he isn't. 10 MR. JUETTNER: Can you identify, just for the 11 record, what exhibits you just referred to. 12 MR. GOUTMAN: They are Bates stamp number 13 821, 849, 858, and 859. 14 MR. JUETTNER: I was referring to the one 15 that he identified Mr. Clark as being copied on or 16 involved with. 17 MR. GOUTMAN: That would be all of the 18 documents. 19 THE WITNESS: Wait a minute. He's not on 20 this one, is he? (Indicating) 21 MR. GOUTMAN: He's not on 858; he's on all of 22 the others. 23 THE WITNESS: They are addressed to Mr. 24 Clark. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020553 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 51 1 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 2 Q. So Mr. Goutman said all of these documents refer to 3 the phasing out of Aroclors and adhesives and sealants. Now, 4 does this refresh your recollection - 5 MR. GOUTMAN: I didn't say that; I said 6 plasticizers. 7 THE WITNESS: It appears that in the 8 documents which I have in front of me, June of 1970 9 through October of '71, there was discussion and 10 plans being discussed to phase them out, but I was 11 not a part of that. 12 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 13 Q. So you don't know why they were being phased out 14 during this time period? 15 A. I was not -- 16 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. That is beyond the 17 scope of this deposition. They were phased out. I'm 18 instructing the witness not to answer. 19 THE WITNESS: I accept his -- 20 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 21 Q. You accept his direction? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Well, do you know what replaced them. if anything 24 A. Other than what I see written on this particular Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020554 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 52 1 instance here, I have no knowledge. (Indicating) 2 Q. Was it at this time that you recall some other 3 companies attempting to import PCBs into this country? Is 4 that what you were referring to earlier? 5 A. At what time? 6 Q. '72. 7 A. Are you going back now to Exhibit 5? 8 Q. Exhibit 5. 9 A. Well, all I knowfrom this is that I had a 10 conversation with this Mr. Schwerd, who told me that they had 11 begun to use PCBs imported from a Japanese company, as I 12 recollect, and I passed this information on to Will Clark. 13 Q. Do you remember what you did with this information 14 after you passed it on to Will Clark? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did Monsanto makeproducts as replacements during 17 this time period for PCBs that these companies could utilize? 18 MR. GOUTMAN: "These companies" meaning 19 plasticizers? 20 MR. MC CLAIN: Sonneborn. 21 MR. GOUTMAN: Sonneborn. 22 Do you know? 23 THE WITNESS: No, I don't know; all I know is 24 what I read on this report. (Indicating) Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020555 Cummixig Paton, Ph.D. 1 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 53 2 Q. How do you interpret that? 3 A. That the salesperson or whoever had been making some 4 suggestions of possible replacement. 5 Q. When you became in charge of all PCBs manufactured by 6 Monsanto -- what year was that again? 7 A. I would have been responsible for the marketing, 8 product management, business management of them, product 9 management, some time during the mid 1970's, I believe. 10 That's as near as I can pin down the date. 11 Q. Were dielectrics still being manufactured in that 12 time period? 13 A. To my recollection, yes. 14 Q. When were those phased out? 15 A. I cannot now recall that exact date. 16 Q. And what were they replaced with? 17 A. That I'm not entirely sure of. 18 Q. When the company was selling dielectric fluids -- is 19 that the proper term, "dielectric fluids"? Is that what they 20 were called? 21 A. It is a term. 22 Q. It is appropriate? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did you have sales to Philips Electronics? Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020556 Gumming Paton, Ph.D. 1 A. That's a name that doesn't ring a bell. 54 2 Q. Advance Transformer Company? 3 A. Doesn't ring a bell. 4 Q. Were fluids used in transformers, PCB fluids? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And what range of Aroclors would those have been, in 7 terms of viscosity? 8 MR. GOUTMAN: Just for clarification, there's 9 no allegation that those companies manufactured or 10 supplied the T&S Building, to my knowledge, any 11 transformers, and there were no PCB transformers 12 found in that building. 13 MR. MC CLAIN: I understand that. 14 MR. GOUTMAN: Go ahead. 15 I just don't understand the relevancy of this 16 line of questioning. 17 MR. MC CLAIN: Not I understand. Your 18 understanding is correct, I believe, but go ahead. 19 THE WITNESS: So do I answer? 20 MR. GOUTMAN: Yes. 21 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the question 22 again? 23 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 24 Q. Let's talk about something that we agree is at issue. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020557 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 55 1 What range of Aroclors, in terms of chlorination, were 2 utilized in ballasts? 3 A. You mean "ballasts" meaning -- 4 Q. Light ballasts. 5 A. Capacitors? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. Is that what you mean? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. They were around the range of 1242. 10 Q. Is that because they needed to be less viscous to be 11 utilized for that purpose? 12 MR. GOUTMAN: If you know. 13 THE WITNESS: I think that was part of it, 14 but there were a whole host of other reasons and I'm 15 not the best person to ask that. 16 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 17 Q. Who would be the best person to ask that? 18 A. There was a gentleman that I recall, a Paul Benignus. 19 Q. Could you spell his name, please? 20 A. BENIGNUS. 21 Q. And what division was he associated with or what 22 function? 23 A. He was the marketmanager of dielectric fluids for a 24 number of years. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020558 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 56 MR. MC CLAIN: Why don't we take a break. (Deposition recessed) BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Back on the record. Did you review any other documents. Dr. Paton, in preparation for your deposition relating to any of these companies? A. I looked at documents in these two piles there, I probably glanced at this, and glanced at this. (Indicating) MR. GOUTMAN: Referring to Exhibits 1 and 6. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Were there any other documents that you authored that you reviewed? A. Any other? I'm not sure I follow you. Q. Any other documents that bore your name regarding these subject matters? A. In that pile? I can't remember. I do know that I went, with Mr. Goutman I weirC^through some of these and looked at them. I don't recollect that actually very many did have my name. MR. GOUTMAN: There may be. I can't tell you that. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Did you review mainly invoices or other documents? Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020559 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 57 1 A. I reviewed, went through not so much invoices, but 2 shipping documents. I went through a whole slew of those. 3 And then whatever the memos and stuff, some of which had my 4 name, but not that many, that I recall. 5 MR. GOUTMAN: For the record, he reviewed 6 documents that we produced to all parties that are 7 Bates stamped PDT 00001 to 996. 8 MR. MC CLAIN: Let me just glance through 9 those to make sure that they are the same ones 10 MR. GOUTMAN: They were the same ones with 11 the exception of the privileged document that 12 is now the subject of a motion. 13 MR. MC CLAIN: I didn't think that we were 14 going to go over that. 15 MR. GOUTMAN: We are not. He did not see 16 that. 17 MR. MC CLAIN: I hadn't planned to ask him 18 about it unless you want me to. I would be happy to. 19 MR. GOUTMAN: You can ask all you want. I 20 don't know that he's going to give any testimony. 21 MR. MC CLAIN: If he didn't review it, I 22 think that's fair. 23 MR. GOUTMAN: Those are largely shipping 24 documents and that's all of the information that Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020560 Clamming Paton, Ph.D. 58 1 Monsanto has as to the companies that you have sued 2 or their alleged predecessor. 3 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 4 Q. Now, let me ask you a question. I have seen 5 reference, and I saw references as I was just looking through 6 here, that the 1262 had a ten percent toluol component. What 7 is toluol? 8 A. I think it is toluene, but toluol maybe, probably, 9 is another name for toluene in a technical sense. 10 MR. GOUTMAN: Let me just object to the form. 11 I don#t think any document suggests that all Aroclors 12 had 1262, and I think if you review the documents you 13 will see that it was a special order. 14 MR. MC CLAIN: No, I'm saying that there are 15 documents which refer to 1262 as having ten percent 16 toluol. 17 MR. GOUTMAN: As that customer's order of 18 1260 please add ten percent toluene to it, if you 19 get my distinction. Not all 1260's had toluene. 20 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 21 Q. Well, 1262 as an example. to 22 A. We are on page five, are we? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. Okay. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020561 Gumming Paton, Ph.D. 1 Q. Ten percent toluene. 59 2 MR. GOUTMAN: Some of the 1262*s that we sold 3 to Gustin Bacon had ten percent toluene. 4 MR. MC CLAIN: And some of it for 5 CertainTeed had ten percent toluene. 6 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 7 Q. And then we see again Sonneborn 1262 in this shipment 8 at least had ten percent -- 9 A. Sonneborn. Well, if you look, you are switching now 10 because page six of that Interrogatory shows just 1262 11 without any toluene. 12 Q. Just -- I know. But this document refers to - 13 (Indicating) 14 A. Okay. 15 MR. GOUTMAN: This document does not say that 16 we supplied any of that to Sonneborn; it says it was 17 discussing that product. 18 MR. MC CLAIN: Was discussing that with them. 19 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 20 Q. My question is I don't really care about whether you 21 supplied it or not; I'm just trying to find out why it was in 22 there. 23 A. I cannot recall now why it is in there. 24 Q. Does toluene increase viscosity or a less viscous Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020562 Gumming Paton, Ph.D. 60 1 material? 2 A. It would, I think, reduce the viscosity. 3 Q. Did polysulfide replace PCBs? 4 A. Polysulfide is the resin to which PCB could have been 5 added. Now, whether they went to polysulfide on its own, 6 that I have no way of knowing. 7 Q. Did Monsanto sell PCBs -- strike that. 8 Were one of the adhesives that PCBs were 9 utilized in mastics? 10 A. Mastics. I mean, that's a term that I have heard. 11 It's not a term that I'm very familiar with. Today, if you 12 ask me to define what I think a mastic is, I would have a 13 hard time. I think of it as -- well, you know, it's not a 14 term that I'm particularly familiar with, and I certainly 15 would have a hard time defining it today. 16 Q. What products did Products Research Company make? 17 A. My recollection of Products Research is that they, 18 again, were in the category that I regarded as adhesives and 19 sealants. Beyond that I have scant recollection. 20 Q. Do you recall visiting their plant? 21 A. I could have, but I could have also done it before, 22 when I was with Diamond Shamrock or Diamond Alkali, whatever 23 they were, because I seem to vaguely remember having 24 something to do with them, but that would have been two Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020563 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 61 1 entirely different phases, and so I seem to recall visiting 2 them, but I cannot remember for what employer, but I didn't 3 -- I couldn't have visited many times. It is another name 4 that jumps out. 5 Q. In the same document. Exhibit 2, it lists an Aroclor 6 54. Was that, again, a resin or - 7 MR. GOUTMAN: 5460? 8 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. 9 THE WITNESS: It talks about a coating of a 10 resin and then the 5460 would have been added to it 11 to give it whatever property or so on that the 12 customer was looking for. 13 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 14 Q. But that was a solid - 15 A. 5460 was a solid, yes. 16 Q. Who would I ask within Monsanto, if you know, about 17 sales to Gustin Bacon or CertainTeed? 18 MR. GOUTMAN: For what time period? 19 MR. MC CLAIN: The same, '68 through '72 time 20 period. 21 THE WITNESS: Well, I have told you what I 22 know about it in the '68 to '70 time frame. That 23 would be based on what I was shown yesterday, the 24 various shipping documents. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020564 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 62 1 MR. GOUTMAN: I think he wants the name of 2 somebody. Do you have any names that occur to you? 3 THE WITNESS: Another name, I cannot recall 4 who the salesperson would have been that was calling 5 on CertainTeed in that time frame. 6 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 7 Q. If we looked at some documents would that helpi us 8 maybe? 9 A. Possibly. 10 Q. Let's look. 11 Do you know a man by the name of Ross Neely? 12 A. It doesn't ring a bell at all. 13 Q. Was there a plant at Anniston, Alabama? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Would there have been anyone in the Anniston, Alabama 16 plant who would know about shipments from that plant? 17 MR. GOUTMAN: To -- 18 MR. MC CLAIN: To CertainTeed or to anyone 19 that they were shipping to? 20 MR. GOUTMAN: To any customer at all? I just 21 want to clarify the question. 22 MR. MC CLAIN: No, I'm talking about 23 specifically to -- he doesn't know anything about 24 CertainTeed, so how can I ask that question? Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020565 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 63 1 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 2 Q. I have an invoice that we can mark. It indicates 3 that the sales to CertainTeed came from Anniston, Alabama. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. I'm trying to figure out who at Anniston, Alabama 6 would know about sales from that plant in your estimation. I 7 know you can't know with certainty. 8 MR. GOUTMAN: Do you want him to look at 9 these? (Indicating) 10 MR. MC CLAIN: If he wants to. 11 MR. HENSON: If those aren't going to be 12 exhibits may we have the Bates stamp for convenience? 13 MR. MC CLAIN: Two, five, six, 15, one, four, 14 three. These are the ones that I was looking at. 15 MR. GOUTMAN: The CertainTeed ones are one 16 through 17. 17 THE WITNESS: There would have been a 18 shipping/warehouse department at the plant in 19 Anniston. Someone there would have received the 20 order, would have gone ahead and got the material 21 ready to be shipped out by whatever truck or freight 22 carrier had been selected, and they would come by and 23 pick it up and take it on its merry way. 24 BY MR. MC CLAIN: Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020566 Cummlng Paton, Ph.D. 64 1 Q. Who from Monsanto would liaison with a customer such 2 as CertainTeed? By category; not by specific individual. 3 A. You would have the sales department, then you would 4 have the customer e-jUfre- processing department, I believe is 5 the general term that Monsanto tends to use. Customer order 6 processing. Once they have got all of the information they 7 need worked out with the customer, they would then place the 8 order at the select plant and it would then proceed from 9 there. 10 Q. Was an H.L. Gray associated with the Anniston plant? 11 A. That's a name that I vaguely remember. 12 Q. What was his capacity? Do you remember? 13 A. I'm not sure. 14 Q. Do you know a Ginnie Calloni? 15 A. No, that's not a name that rings a bell at all. 16 MR. GOUTMAN: What's the spelling of that 17 name? 18 MR. MC CLAIN: CALLONI. 19 MR. GOUTMAN: The witness is indicating -- 20 THE WITNESS: That from -- see where it is 21 from? It says St. Louis district office. That means 22 that it would be the St. Louis district sales office. 23 This person would have been part of that office. 24 BY MR. MC CLAIN: Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020567 Gumming Paton, Ph.D. 65 1 Q. Let's mark that for a minute. 2 MR. GOUTMAN: It is Bates stamp number 19. 3 (The above-referred to document was marked as 4 Paton Exhibit 7 for identification) 5 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 6 Q. Exhibit 7 is a document to H.L. Gray from a Ginnie 7 Calloni which indicates it is from the St. Louis district 8 office, Monsanto Chemical Company. Is that the way the 9 company was set up? There would be district sales offices 10 that would sell to plants or customers in various parts of 11 the country? 12 A. The district sales office would have a manager who 13 had several salespersons, and they had responsibility for 14 customers in their region. Gustin Bacon, which I understand 15 is in Kansas City, it would be eminently reasonable that that 16 fell within the -- 17 Q. St. Louis sales office? 18 A. St. Louis sales office region. 19 Q. Do you recall who was in charge of the St. Louis 20 sales office during this time period, '68 through 1972? 21 A. No. 22 Q. They worked under you; correct? 23 A. No, sales was separate. 24 Q. Sales were separate from marketing? Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020568 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 66 1 A. Sales were separate from marketing. 2 Q. How so? 3 A. It goes backwards and forwards. Both the sales /ol&mJzJL -k> A6-***-fiAA**n* 34 organization and myself would hav^\-^ ^I reported probably in 5 the early days to a product manager, who in turn would have 6 reported to a director of marketing. That's where the two 7 functions came together, but they were kept separate. f8 Comotimeo--------- Xn general, yes, they are kept separate. 9 Q. Just to understand, in regard to marketing, you were 10 not responsible for sales to customers? 11 A. I was not responsible for going in regularly calling 12 on customers, making sure that they got sales; I would be 13 pushing, prodding, helping, supporting, doing all of the 14 things to make it happen. 15 Q. Were you at all involved, then, in finding uses for 16 these products? 17 A. To some extent, yes. The salesperson, the smart 18 ones, would be always looking for ways that they could serve 19 a customer, either with their current product line or even 20 others. New things that the customer would be trying to do. r 21 Sometimes they were sufficiently skilled and knowledgeable 22 that they could initiate some of that on their own; other 23 times they would come bacl^. If they came back, probably with 24 this particular group of products they would come to me and Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020569 Cummlng Paton, Ph.D. 67 1 say. Hey, Cumming. So and so told me this, that, and the 2 other. What ideas do you have for that? Sometimes I might 3 have ideas, sometimes I would say no, and other times I would 4 say. Gee, that's interesting and then I would go through the network of other functions, discuss it to see if it merit^j^^ 5 6 if it was something that we could bring to the party. 7 Q. So were you essentially in a function of supporting 8 sales? 9 A. I think that's a fair statement, trying to give them 10 the commercial functional direction for the job. I was not 11 -- the regional manager/^ the sales office manager, would have 12 been the administrative sales manager, but I would have been 13 looked to to be the one to give the functional direction^ smdrzL 14 fehings- regarding the other functions in St. Louis, technical, 15 manufacturing, whatever, would come to me or somebody with my 16 title and use that as the gateway to go to the sales force, 17 so that the sales force was getting some sort of a consistent 18 situation. They weren't picking up the phone and getting 19 somebody telling them one thing, getting someone else and 20 getting some other story; it was my job to try to get a 21 consistency. 22 Q. Is there anyone at the St. Louis office that you can 23 remember in the sales office during this time period that was 24 Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020570 Cuinming Paton, Ph.D. 68 1 A. Not within any given time frame. Obviously I know, I 2 knew and still know of many people. They might have gone 3 through there at one time, but to pin it down now to specific 4 times, I would be hopelessly -- I just couldn't even begin to 5 hazard a guess. 6 Q. Do you ever remember developing applications for use 7 of Aroclors in ducting, duct work? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Do you remember coming up with uses for Aroclors in 10 adhesives to apply fiberglass materials to surfaces? 11 A. No, I can't recall that. 12 Q. What uses do you recall developing within marketing 13 or applications? 14 A. I don't know. 15 MR. GOUTMAN; When you say you developing, 16 you mean Monsanto originating? 17 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. 18 THE WITNESS: I, in my tenure, I recall 19 something called hot melt adhesives. 20 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 21 Q. Hot melt adhesives? 22 A. Hot melt adhesives, which would have involved more 23 Aroclor 5460s, as I recall. In the PCB area, coatings. 24 Q. Coatings like what? Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020571 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 69 1 A. I seem to recall marine coatings to go on ships and 2 tanks and things. In many cases, as I recall, the prime 3 motivater for developing e-hate were the companies that 4 manufactured the resins, and they would then have to 5 formulate these resins to get them into a form suitable that 6 they could offer to their customers, and if their research 7 lead them to use a Monsanto product, we would tend to learn 8 about it second or third hand, and sometimes we would be 9 able, through looking at the resin producers' literature, see 10 reference to our products being used and why they were being 11 used. I would then tell our market manager. We then, in w 12 turn, would attempt to alert our sales force. Look. These 13 are some applications!' Then they would see how, try to find 14 customers, who the customers might be, so that was the way it 15 worked. 16 Q. Do you ever remember developing applications for 17 caulk? 18 A. No. I would have done that at Diamond Alkali, but 19 not with Monsanto. 20 Q. When you say you would have done that with Diamond 21 Alkali, did you develop uses for PCBs at Diamond Alkali? 22 A. No, polysulfides were used. 23 MR. MC CLAIN: Let's mark this as Paton 8. 24 (Indicating) Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020572 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 70 1 (The above-referred to document was marked as 2 Exhibit Paton 8 for identification) 3 MR. GOUTMAN: Do you want the witness to read 4 it? 5 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. 6 MR. GOUTMAN: It is marked Paton 8 and it 7 begins with Bates stamp number 692. 8 MR. MC CLAIN: 697, isn't it? 9 MR. GOUTMAN: 692. 10 MR. GOUTMAN: It's the same document, but it 11 was routed to a different person. 12 MR. MC CLAIN: Okay. 13 Go ahead. You can review it. 14 MR. GOUTMAN: Just read it. 15 The witness has read this. 16 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 17 Q. Do you recall this document? 18 A. Until I saw it yesterday I had forgotten all about 19 it, but I don't disagree that this is something that I have 20 written. 21 Q. Why did you write it? 22 A. The actual reason now would escape me, but it must 23 have been something that Bill Richard had asked me to do or 24 we discussed and I had agreed to do. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020573 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 71 1 Q. It talks in this document about your largest 2 customers are Products Research at Burbank, under "Sealants", 3 four, and Gloucester City, Pennsylvania, and Sonneborn in New 4 Jersey, 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And I guess that's 680 million pounds for Products 7 Research and 225 million pounds for - 8 A. Thousand. Sorry. In those days I used M for 9 thousands. I think now the terminology would be to use K for 10 thousand and M for million, but that means thousand. And 11 where I have got an M with a bar across the top that's where 12 I meant millions. So it is 1.4 million between these two, 13 the largest being -- (Indicating) 14 Q. Now, you indicate that where you sold these, on page 15 three, by states -- 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Pennsylvania was one of your larger states. In terms 18 of volume of product. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. In fact, you summarize that in the next table. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Fourth in the country. Why? Did you ever analyze 23 why more PCBs were utilized in Pennsylvania than other areas? 24 MR. GOUTMAN: This doesn't purport to Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020574 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 72 1 summarize PCBs; this purports to summarize the use of 2 some PCBs in applications that he had. 3 MR. MC CLAIN: Let's rephrase it. 4 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 5 Q. Let's talk about plasticizer PCBs. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did you ever analyze why it was that you were selling 8 more in these states than other places? 9 A. What you can deduce from this is that there were 10 customers in those states who had factories that produced 11 products that needed these plasticizer PCBs. That just 12 happened to be where they had decided to locate their 13 production facilities. 14 Q. Do I take it that this memo relates to some concern 15 about PCB contamination of the seas? Was that the purpose of 16 this memorandum? 17 A. It might have been related to that. I cannot now 18 recall specifically. 19 Q. You do a calculation here about water contamination 20 if all of these PCBs made their way into the sea. Do you 21 have any recollection about why you did that? 22 A. The only recollection I have is about the time that I 23 became involved as market manager in the specialty product 24 area somehow it was brought to my attention, an article in Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020575 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 73 1 some journal by two Swedish scientists, Jensen and Widmark, I 2 believe, and I recollect having a discussion with some people 3 in Monsanto about the pertinence of that to the Aroclors. 4 Jensen and Widmark purportedly, as I recollect, had done some 5 analytical work, found some products in egg shells or birds, 6 I can't recall now, that were chlorinated, I think, according 7 to their studies. They had looked at trying to relate what 8 they found to known chemicals. They talked about chlorinated 9 biphenyls, but other chlorinated materials as well, as I 10 recollect. Being a market manager for those products, 11 obviously this caught my attention. I didn't know the 12 accuracy, anything like that, so I would have gone to our 13 technical people, we might have had some environmental people 14 at that time, certainly in R.E. Kelly's department, I see 15 they were copied, and said. Gee, what's this about? As best 16 I recall now, the type of equipment that, the type of method 17 that was being used, something known as gas liquid 18 chromatography, which today is very commonplace, but in that 19 day it was still pretty much in its infancy, so there was 20 genuine debate as to how accurate this was. I certainly was 21 in no position to judge that. As I recollect, we decided to 22 try to see and find out what we could about how accurate this 23 statement was, etc., etc. 24 Later I recall being in San Francisco Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020576 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 74 1 visiting a customer, a meeting there or something, I picked 2 up a newspaper that had a headline about a man, and I think 3 it was Risebrough, he was a scientist, finding PCBs somewhere 4 along the coast or in birds, and I broughtthat back with me 5 to St. Louis because, as I recall, and this is vague now, the 6 newspaper published it, went on into, you know, sort of a 7 somewhat emotional thing about what this all meant. That 8 conceivably could have triggered us trying to figure out, 9 trying to get a better idea of where our products had gone, 10 and since the insinuation, as I recall, in the article that I 11 picked up in San Francisco had, that it gets into the ocean 12 it gets into the fish, and I may have been trying here to try 13 to say. Well, what does that really mean in practical terms? 14 That's as much as I can recall about it. 15 MR. HENSON: I didn't have the exhibit in 16 front of me when the last question was asked. As I 17 see it, page 695 of Exhibit 8 mentions a calculation 18 of a possible concentration. Was that the correct 19 word that was used? 20 MR. GOUTMAN: We are looking - 21 MR. HENSON: Ken, I didn't hear your 22 question. 23 MR. MC CLAIN: I think it was what was this 24 all about. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020577 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 75 MR. HENSON: I thought I heard the word "contamination" and the word in the memorandum is "concentration". MR. MC CLAIN: I don't think I asked that. Can you read back by last question. (The last question was read back by the Court Reporter) THE WITNESS: So contamination was his word; not mine? MR. HENSON: Yes. THE WITNESS: I should have picked up on that and said it was concentration. MR. GOUTMAN: Your lawyer should have. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Do you ever recall being asked to consult any of the businesses that are mentioned here about Aroclors and their finding their way into the environment? A. I would have probably had at some time, but I think it was probably later that part of my job, certainly when I came back and got involved in fluids was, in fact, helping formulate information that was sent to customers, but I can't recollect to what extent I did this in the plasticizer days because, as I say, I wasn't there very long, and at the time that I wrote this I had just become aware of this particular Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020578 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 76 1 article, and we were trying to get a better understanding of 2 what they had done and to see if we could, you know, had the 3 methodology to try to find out what it was, because there was 4 still a great deal of uncertainty about the particular 5 methodology, and this was sort of a new issue that had 6 appeared, so there had to be a certain time of study and 7 research done to try to -- not to refute it, but to try to 8 find out what the true situation was. You couldn't really do 9 much until you had those things. So this was all sort of 10 preparatory to understanding what the situation was. 11 Q. Did you prepare documents that went to the companies 12 that are involved in this case? 13 A. I don't think very much. I can't remember that at 14 all. 15 Q. How would we find out whether you did or not? What 16 files would we look in? 17 A. I think my recollection would be best, and I can say 18 pretty certainly that I did not. 19 Q. Is it because you know that by the time these were 20 prepared these companies, and I'm speaking of Gustin Bacon, 21 CertainTeed, Products Research, and Sonneborn, were no longer 22 using Aroclors or is there some other way that you know that? 23 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of the 24 question. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020579 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 77 1 You can answer if you can. 2 THE WITNESS: The way you have worded it it 3 is very difficult to answer. All I can say is that 4 in my tenure as market manager for the plasticizer 5 group of PCBs I was not aware of any informing of 6 these specific customers. Some of these customers, I 7 think Gustin Bacon in particular, I have no 8 recollection of. What happened after I became 9 involved in early '70 or whatever the date was with 10 Latin America, I would have no reason to have been 11 involved. 12 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 13 Q. Working backwards knowing that you did, in fact, make 14 or send materials to your fluid customers -- 15 A. Yes, because you worded it fairly broadly, so to 16 truthfully answer you I said at a certain time I did, but I'm 17 almost certain that I didn't do anything of that nature in 18 this particular job in this particular time frame of '68 to, 19 end of '68 or whenever it was, to early '70. 20 Q. Do you know whether at that time, at the time that 21 you were at fluids, whether PCBs were still being sold for 22 plasticizers? 23 A. My recollection is that they were not. 24 Q. Do you remember any information being sent to Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020580 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 78 1 companies in this 1977 time period -- strike that. 2 What was this information that you were 3 developing then in 1977 that was going to the heat, to the 4 fluids customers? 5 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of the 6 question. 7 You can answer if you understand the 8 question. 9 THE WITNESS: I don't think we would have 10 been sending anything to the heat transfer people in 11 1977 because I think we had phased out the heat 12 transfer before then. But somewhere, 1972 onward, 13 notices appeared in the federal register regarding 14 levels of PCBs allegedly being found in the 15 environment and some suggestions, so that this would 16 have been passing this type of information onto 17 customers so that they were aware of it. 18 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 19 Q. When was that? What year was that? 20 A. It had to be somewhere around, starting some time in 21 '72 and going on forward. 22 Q. And so would companies such as Gustin Bacon, 23 CertainTeed, and Products Research Companies and Sonneborn, 24 to the extent that they were your customers for PCBs, receive Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020581 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 79 1 those notices? 2 MR. JUETTNER: Objection to the form of the 3 question. 4 MR. GOUTMAN: Same objection. 5 You can answer if you can. 6 THE WITNESS: Without having a list of 7 letters in front of me I can't recall today all who 8 got these letters. 9 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 10 Q. But generally your customers received them? 11 MR. JUETTNER: Objection to the form of the 12 question. 13 MR. GOUTMAN: Same objection. 14 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure about the 15 plasticizer area and some other areas because I did 16 not -- I didn't have continuous responsibility in 17 those areas. 18 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 19 Q. In the areas that you did have responsibility for, 20 did your customers in those areas receive such letters? 21 A. In the case of heat transfer fluids and in the case 22 of dielectric fluids, to the best of my knowledge and belief 23 they all received communications. 24 Q. And are records kept within Monsanto or were they Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020582 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 80 1 kept when you were active of such communications? 2 A. I believe they were. How complete they are, where 3 and what the policy was for keeping them, I don't know. 4 Q. And what department would have such records or did 5 have when you were there? 6 A. Again, administration people would have taken care of 7 these things, and who they were, I have long since forgotten. 8 Q. The company was called administration? 9 A. I'm saying there would have been someone in an 10 administrative capacity which would have taken care of that 11 sort of thing, and who they were, I couldn't give you any 12 names. 13 Q. And was there a department that was called anything 14 other than administration? Just administration? 15 A. I cannot recall. 16 Q. Were they attached to the marketing group? 17 A. No. 18 MR. GOUTMAN: Off the record. 19 (Off the record discussion) 20 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 21 Q. Let me come back to something we touched on briefly 22 because I don't understand it fully yet. Now that you have 23 made this explanation about the difference between sales and 24 marketing, would there be someone who regularly liaisoned Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020583 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 81 1 with your customers from marketing about new products 2 research? 3 A. If the plasticizer group, be specific to them, had an 4 idea for a new product or a new use which internally we had 5 talked about and thought up, then we would find ways to. 6 Okay. Who would be the best companies to be interested in 7 this? Again, that would depend on what kind of products we 8 thought these products might go into. And then we would set 9 about talking to the regional managers or our sales people as 10 to. Okay. Were they aware of customers in their region to 11 whom this might be of interest? If it were then they might 12 well make a preliminary contact. If the answer came back. 13 Gee, yes, we are interested, then I might well be the person 14 that would have gone in to make the preliminary one or, as I 15 recall, we also had a commercial development section whose 16 job that might have been, but I cannot recall if commercial 17 development covered the whole organic division product line 18 or whether it was within a plasticizer group. That would 19 vary depending on the work load. They might focus -- 20 Q. Where would records of such, as an example, if you 21 developed a product for a company or improved upon a product, 22 would there be communications with the company by written 23 document that -- 24 MR. GOUTMAN: Just so I understand, we are Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020584 Cumming Pa ton, Ph.D. 82 1 talking about the uses of Aroclors in plasticizers? 2 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. 3 MR. GOUTMAN: Developing new uses for 4 Aroclors. 5 MR. MC CLAIN: I know he doesn't recall one. 6 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 7 Q. Let's say they developed one for Gustin Bacon, as an 8 example. You say somebody within your company knew that 9 Gustin Bacon made various products and you came up with a new 10 use for an Aroclor and said, I think this would be a good 11 thing for Gustin Bacon. How would we find out if there was 12 such a communication? Where can we look? 13 Maybe Mr. Goutman has already looked, but we 14 will see. 15 A. I can't recollect that in the Aroclor area much of 16 that went on. A lot of the requests on information on 17 Aroclors came to us from customers. They were the ones that 18 did their own formulation or they relied on the resin 19 supplier, fchaL the resin they decided to use for the product^ 20 ~hat resin supplier might have had recommendations on the 21 additives to apply. J*h^y wnu4-r^~-K^r< feJEten -- all we did was 22 accept orders for the products that they asked for, ship, 23 invoice, so on and so forth. 24 Q. How would Monsanto become aware of these new uses, if Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020585 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 83 1 they would become aware? Would somebody communicate with you 2 or did that happen from time to time? . 3 A. Occasionally customers would call direct and say, I 4 have got an idea. They might be very vague about it. Do you 5 have any products that might do this, this, and so and so? 6 Q. Were those communications documented? 7 A. Probably, yes. 8 Q. What would be the format of those? 9 A. It could be anything. It could be just a handwritten 10 note from me to someone. In fact, it wouldn't always 11 necessarily be written down; sometimes it would have been a 12 phone call to a salesman saying. Look. Contact so and so 13 because they are interested in getting samples of X, Y, Z. 14 Q. But if there was a written memorandum, was there a 15 format that it had to follow within the company or should 16 have followed? 17 A. There wasn't a hard and fast policy. They would have 18 been filed either under that product name or under the 19 customer name. 20 Q. So files would be kept, as an example, for 21 communications with Gustin Bacon. 22 A. Yes. How complete they are, hard to say. 23 Q. Understand. 24 Why don't we take a break. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020586 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 84 1 (Deposition recessed) 2 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 3 Q. Back on the record. 4 Do you know whether or not the information 5 that you have supplied within the memorandum that we have 6 marked as Exhibit 8 was utilized in any larger memoranda? 7 A. I have no idea. 8 Q. Let me ask you this, after Monsanto stopped 9 manufacturing PCBs in the United States did they sell PCBs 10 overseas? 11 A. I cannot recollect the exact phase out schedule, 12 whether it was simultaneously or phased. I can't remember 13 that now. 14 Q. I'm wondering, the only reason I ask this, 15 recognizing that this is a product identification, did you 16 ever sell it to any of the other companies that were 17 mentioned in the other memoranda where Sonneborn was trying 18 to get the PCBs from other companies? Did you ever supply 19 them to those companies mentioned in the memorandum? 20 I can't remember the names of them. 21 MR. GQUTMAN: Did we ever supply it to the 22 Japanese? 23 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. 24 BY MR. MC CLAIN: Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020587 Cumming Pa ton, Ph.D. 85 1 Q. Were those manufacturers of - 2 A. In a memo, which is not this memo, which is the other 3 one which I wrote to Willis Clark reporting on a conversation 4 with Mr. Schwerd -- 5 Q. Yes. Did you ever supply to those companies 6 mentioned in that memo? 7 A. No. What you are trying to ask me is. Gee, did we 8 find a way around selling PCBs by selling to other people to 9 sell for us. 10 Q. No, what I'm saying is I'm not saying that you did 11 that directly; I'm saying did you sell to someone thinking 12 that they were going to sell outside of the United States, 13 but they ended up selling it back in this country? 14 A. I have no knowledge of that going on, but Kanegafuchi 15 was a manufacturer. KANEGAFUCHI. 16 MR. GOUTMAN: That's Exhibit Paton 5. 17 BY MR. MC CLAIN; 18 Q. Mr. Paton, did you ever have any contact with United 19 States Mineral Products Company? 20 A. That's not a name that rings a bell at all. 21 Q. Were PCBs ever utilized in sprayed on fireproofing as 22 far as you know? 23 MR. JUETTNER; Objection. 24 BY MR. MC CLAIN; Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020588 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 86 1 Q. Do you know what that product is? 2 A. To me that's a broad term. I think of that as a 3 generic type term. 4 Q. Yes. I'm using it that way. 5 A. That's not something that I recollect anything about. 6 Q. In other words, you don't remember selling PCBs 7 either when you were with the fluids division or with the 8 plasticizing division for application to any company that 9 manufactured a spray applied fireproofing material? 10 A. I can't recall. That's not to say that we didn't, 11 but I can't recall customers that I would associate them with 12 that kind of application. That's not to say that they didn't 13 do it. 14 MR. MC CLAIN: On this subject I don't think 15 I have any further questions. 16 MR. JUETTNER: I have a few. 17 18 BY MR. JUETTNER: 19 Q. Mr. Paton -20 MR. GOUTMAN: Can you just identify yourself 21 for the witness. 22 BY MR. JUETTNER: 23 Q. I was just going to do that. 24 My name is John Juettner. My firm represents Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020589 Gumming Paton, Ph.D. 87 1 Chemrex. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. I have a few follow-up questions regarding your 4 testimony. 5 Can you tell me what plasticizers in general 6 are used for? 7 A. I think, as I indicated, plasticizers are additives 8 to plastics to modify them usually by making them more 9 flexible. That's broad, but that's what they are. 10 Q. And what are some possible applications of 11 plasticizers? 12 A. They are used in floor tile, vinyl tiles, vinyl 13 flooring. You would need to add some plasticizer in order to 14 get the tiles sufficiently flexible to be able to be laid and 15 so on and so forth. 16 Q. And polychlorinated biphenyls are added to 17 plasticizers, is that correct, to make them more elastic or 18 flexible? A. I don't think o!^ polychlorinated biphenyls as 19 20 necessarily being plasticizers; I think of them being 21 additives that modify the behavior of plastics, but not 22 necessarily to plasticize them in the way that it softens 23 them and makes them more flexible, if you can make that 24 distinction. The group that I was in at that time that Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020590 Cumming Pa ton, Ph.D. 88 1 handled these products was called plasticizers, but that was 2 used more like an umbrella ternyj btrt--trlieii there were group - CsV\ 3 products itaatf had bnn and they were by far 4 the biggest volume/jwhere you would have been using them pit 5 -mainly- in PCS and so on for this plasticizing, flexibilizing 6 property. The specialty type of things, which Aroclors and 7 PCBs were one, and there were a raft of others, could be 8 added to plastics, give different properties, but to the 9 technical person and to somebody like me in between the 10 technical and the sales and the customer, I wouldn't have 11 used the term "plasticizer" if I was trying to define for 12 somebody what they did, and I hope I have not confused you 13 because that was not my intent. 14 Q. Well, an Aroclor is a plasticizer; is that correct? 15 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of the 16 question. I think we will stipulate that it can be 17 used as a plasticizing application. 18 THE WITNESS; Modifier of plastics. 19 BY MR. JUETTNER: 20 Q. Fair enough. And would one of the uses of Aroclors 21 be as an additive? For example, to plastic wrapping or 22 packaging which covers food. 23 A. I can't recollect it being used ever in that category 24 because I don't think it would be compatible with the plastic Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020591 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 89 that's used that I think of, i/rr polyethylene, it wouldn't 1 2 have been compatible with it. It would not have stayed in 3 it, so there would have been no purpose in using it. In hot 4 melt adhesives, I don't know whether it would have been used 5 in contact with food or not. 6 Q. Are you aware of any use of Aroclors in any kind of 7 packaging of foodstuffs? 8 A. I, personally, am not. 9 Q. Would you have any concern if, for example, Aroclors 10 were used in a plastic or packaging for food stuffs? 11 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. 12 Don't answer the question. 13 Other than from a chemical standpoint? He 14 already said that the PCBs were not compatible with 15 polyethylene. Are you talking about health concerns? 16 MR. JUETTNER: Yes. 17 MR. GOUTMAN: I'm not going to let him 18 answer. It's not a product identification, and as 19 far as I know the plaintiffs in this case are not 20 . claiming that that application was found in the TNS 21 building. 22 MR. MC CLAIN: We might. We did have a 23 cafeteria. 24 BY MR. JUETTNER: Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020592 Cummlng Paton, Ph.D. 90 1 Q. Do you know at any time whether Monsanto sent 2 anything to any of its customers regarding concerns of 3 Aroclor leaching onto another product? 4 A. Leaching onto another product? 5 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection as overly broad, but 6 you can answer if you can. 7 THE WITNESS: I think if it leached onto 8 another product that would not necessarily, from my 9 standpoint, be Monsanto's responsibility; that would 10 be whoever had the two products, I would think. 11 BY MR. JUETTNER: 12 Q. But do you know if that concern was ever expressed to 13 any of Monsanto's customers? 14 A. Well - 15 MR. GOUTMAN: Don't answer the question. 16 He's answered the question. He's answered 17 the question. He said that was the product 18 manufacturers' concern; not Monsanto's 19 BY MR. JUETTNER: 20 Q. What did Monsanto use as a replacement for the PCBs 21 or Aroclors? 22 A. In what application? 23 Q. In, for example, sealants or caulks. 24 A. I don't know. As I think I saw in some Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020593  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 91 correspondence that was shown involving Mr. Clark, there was some discussion with one company, I think it might have been more, but the one memo I referred to, one about the possible replacement. When that took place I was not the market manager for those products at the time, so I really don't know what happened to that. Q. So that would have been after 1972? A. No, it would have been after 1970, I think. Q. Do you recall who the competitors were of Monsanto with respect to your Aroclor sales? A. There were companies outside the United States that produced Aroclors. Kanegafuchi of Japan, KANEGAFUCHI, was one. There were two companies, I believe, at least two companies in Europe. I think Bayer of Germany was one. BAYER. There was a company in France whose name I think was Prodelec, PRODELEC, which would have been absorbed at some point in time more recently into the Rhone Poulenc, RHONE POULENC. There could be others. Q. Any United States manufacturers? MR. GOUTMAN: What time frame are we talking about? MR. JUETTNER: Say a time period between 1968 and 1972. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020594 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 92 1 THE WITNESS: I can't recollect any. 2 BY MR. JUETTNER: 3 Q. What about prior to 1976? 4 A. Prior to 1976? 5 Q. 1976, prior to 1976? 6 MR. GOUTMAN: '76 going backward in time 7 forever? 8 MR. JUETTNER: Yes. 9 MR. GOUTMAN: If you know. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of any. 11 BY MR. JUETTNER: 12 Q. Do you know, with respect to these other 13 manufacturers, what their plasticizers consisted of? 14 MR. GOUTMAN: What their PCB plasticizers 15 consisted of? 16 MR. JUETTNER: Correct. 17 THE WITNESS: I knew that they produced PCBs, 18 I knew that they were selling PCBs for applications 19 similar to what we did in totality, but I had no 20 direct knowledge of who their customers were and the 21 applications, or really the exact composition of 22 their product. 23 BY MR. JUETTNER: 24 Q. Are you aware of any, can you recall any manufacturer Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020595 Gumming Paton, Ph.D. 93 1 of plasticizers prior to 1976 but during the period of time 2 that you worked for Monsanto, that manufactured a plasticizer 3 that did not contain PCBs? 4 A. Was I aware of a manufacturer of plasticizers, non 5 PCBs plasticizers? 6 Q. Correct. 7 A. There are a whole host of them. 8 Q. Can you name some? 9 MR. GOUTMAN: There arethousands. 10 THE WITNESS: Having said that I should be 11 . able to remember. 12 I'm going to say Exxon Chemical -- well, back 13 then is was Esso Company Chemical. Exxon Chemical 14 would be one, Bayer was another, Ashland, I think 15 Rhom and Haas, W.R. Grace, one that started with an H 16 whose name escapes me now. 17 BY MR. JUETTNER: 18 Q. But that's a representative sample; right? 19 A. We had a fair number of competitors. 20 Q. Do you know what they utilized instead of PCBs? 21 A. Do I know what they utilized instead of PCBs? I 22 don't understand - 23 MR. GOUTMAN: What plasticizers did they sell 24 instead of selling PCBs as a plasticizer? Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020596 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 94 1 THE WITNESS: Well, a lot of them sold what 2 were known as phthalate, PHTHALATE, 3 phthalate plasticizers. Some of them sold 4 plasticizers whose composition I have forgotten. 5 There were products that adipates, ADIPATES, 6 and so on and so forth, but they were not necessarily 7 being sold as a direct competitor to PCBs. 8 BY MR. JUETTNER: 9 Q. Do you know if they utilized any polychlorinated 10 terphenyls? 11 A. I suspect not. 12 Q. With regard to the Transportation Safety Building, 13 the allegations, at least against Chemrex, is that there were 14 PCBs in the caulking used in the building during a renovation 15 which occurred in the early 1980's. With respect to building 16 construction in general, though, I believe this building was 17 first constructed in the 1966, 1967 time frame. Would you 18 know today what other products used in the construction of 19 that building might conceivably contain PCBs? 20 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of the 21 question. 22 MR. LANGFITT: Objection to the form of the 23 question. 24 THE WITNESS: Until yesterday I never even Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020597 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 95 heard of the TNS building. BY MR. JUETTNER: Q. But you indicated before that PCBs, for example, might be in tile; is that correct? A. No, I think what I said was that plasticizers were used in tiles, but all plasticizers are not PCBs and PCBs are not necessarily always used as plasticizers. In fact, very infrequently used in this definition of what a plasticizer is, so I think part of the problem I see developing here is flip-flopping between plasticizer as an organizational group and plasticizer as a use of a product. Q. Would you agree that PCBs were sold for use in polysulfide caulk? A. I believe that's the case. Q. Or sealants; right? A. Or sealants. In fact, maybe this is a case maybe where caulk is a phrase that I don't use. I sometimes get accused of getting into a problem of using English terminology instead of American, but since I have been here so long I get confused when I go back to Britain and I get confused at times here. I apologize if I say I'm not sure what caulk is. I say sealant; maybe you use sealant and caulk differently or they are the same. I don't know. Q. Do you know whether PCBs are used in urethane caulks? Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020598 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 96 1 MR. GOUTMAN: Are used or were used? 2 MR. JUETTNER: Are used. 3 THE WITNESS: That's not something that I can 4 recollect having heard about. 5 BY MR. JUETTNER: 6 Q. You have never heard of PCBs being used in urethane 7 caulk; is that correct? 8 A. I can't recollect it. Even as I'm thinking as you 9 speak, I can't think of ever having come across that. 10 Q. You never recall any sale of Aroclor for use in a 11 urethane caulk; is that correct? 12 A. I can't recall that, no. 13 Q. And would you agree that you have never heard anyone 14 ever using a PCB for use as a urethane caulk? 15 A. I can't recall that. 16 Q. Where do you currently reside? 17 A. In a suburb of St. Louis. 18 Q. Mr. Paton, you were shown a couple of documents. I 19 refer specifically to Exhibits two through five. I don't 20 have those in front of me, but from what I recall, I believe. 21 Exhibits two, three and four are sales calls; is that 22 correct? 23 A. Yes, they are what we would have called sales 24 reports. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020599 Gumming Paton, Ph.D. 97 1 Q. Is it true that you really don't have any firsthand 2 knowledge regarding the subject matter which is contained in 3 those documents? 4 A. That's correct, because they were addressed to what I 5 believe was my successor in two cases, and to Bill Coaker, 6 who was in our technical department in the third case. 7 Q. And with regard to Exhibit number 5, which I believe 8 incorporates your recollections of a conversation that you 9 had with Mr. Schwerd, would I be correct in saying that you 10 don't have any direct knowledge as to the use or application 11 of any Aroclor that you claim Monsanto sold to Sonneborn; is 12 that correct? 13 A. Could you just repeat that? I'm trying to remember 14 this, and I just wasn't listening. I apologize. 15 Q. Would I be correct in saying that you have no first 16 hand knowledge, based on Exhibit 5, as to what, if anything, 17 Sonneborn did with the Aroclor which is referenced in that 18 memo? 19 MR. GOUTMAN: Based solely on that exhibit? 20 MR. JUETTNER: Correct. 21 THE WITNESS: The only PCBs that I would be, 22 Aroclor PCBs would be the Therminol FR-1, but if you 23 are saying PCBs as regard to plasticizer use by 24 Sonneborn, the answer is no, I have no knowledge Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020600 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 98 1 based on this document. 2 BY MR. JUETTNER: 3 Q. And based on those four documents in general, you 4 don't have any first hand knowledge regarding any 5 representations Monsanto made to Sonneborn regarding the use 6 of Aroclors; is that correct? 7 A. Based on these documents, no, because three of them I 8 wasn't around when they were written. I didn't see them 9 until yesterday. 10 Q. There's also a memo, I think it's Exhibit 8. Is that 11 the 1969 memo? 12 MR. GOUTMAN: Yes. 13 BY MR. JUETTNER: 14 Q. In which Sonneborn is identified as a customer of 15 Monsanto. With regard to their reference to Sonneborn, would 16 I be correct in stating you do not have any direct knowledge 17 as to what Sonneborn did or didn't do with the product 18 referenced there? 19 A. I believe that I was aware at the time that both 20 Products Research and Sonneborn were in the sealant area and 21 I believe used polysulfides, and through call reports and 22 whatever I gained the impression that our Aroclors were going 23 into that, but to what extent, for what purpose, that I don't 24 know. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020601 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 99 1 Q. So it may have gone into a polysulfide product. 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. One last question, hopefully. 4 With regard to the memo, you referenced an 5 article or study which prompted you to draft that memo, or 6 did I misunderstand your testimony? 7 A. I think in answer to Mr. McClain, what was the 8 relevance of this, I related back that at the time this was 9 written I had been made aware of two pieces of information 10 that had been published; one, a Jensen and Widmark study and 11 then being in San Francisco; and picking up a newspaper which 12 had a headline, as I recall, which is I probably why I picked 13 it up, about PCBs and a Dr. Risebrough having found 14 something. It was about the time that these findings came to 15 my attention, and I was trying to learn more about it. I had-^ 16 went to people in the organization who then began to try to 17 understand what this was all about. 18 Q. Do you know when the Jensen article was published? 19 A. The date escapes me now. I think clearly it was 20 published before I knew about it, but how many years before I 21 don't know. I don't think it was a long time before that, 22 but I don't remember when. 23 Q. You don't know whether it was published in 1966 in 24 the New Scientist magazine? Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020602 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 100 1 MR. MC CLAIN: Apparently it was. 2 MR. GOUTMAN: He said he didn't know. 3 Don't answer the question. 4 THE WITNESS: It could well be. 5 MR. JUETTNER: I don't have any other 6 questions. 7 8 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 9 Q. When you answered a question regarding urethane caulk 10 and that you don't recall it, does that mean that it didn't 11 happen or you just don't know one way or the other. 12 MR. JUETTNER: Objection to the form of the 13 question. It mischaracterizes his testimony. 14 MR. GOUTMAN: You can answer. 15 THE WITNESS: I, personally, cannot recall 16 ever being aware that Aroclor was used in urethane 17 caulks. Now, the minute I say something like that 18 somebody is going to pop up and say yes, they were, but I don-1 tT^know about it, and I don't know about it 19 20 today. If he hadn't mentioned it it wouldn't have 21 been something that I even would have thought of. He 22 may well be right, but I don't know about it. 23 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 24 Q. You don't know one way or the other? Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020603 Gumming Paton, Ph.D. 101 1 A. I don't know one way or the other. 2 MR. MC CLAIN: Thank you. No further 3 questions. 4 MS. MANERO: I have no questions. 5 MR. HENSON: I have no questions. 6 MR. LANGFITT: I have no questions. 7 MR. GOUTMAN: I have no questions. 8 MR. JUETTNER: I have no further questions. 9 MR. SLATER: I have no questions. 10 (Witness excused) 11 (Deposition concluded at 1:05 p.m.) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020604 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 102 1 2 3 4 CERTIFICATE 5 6 COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA 7 8 9 10 COUNTY OF PHILADELPHIA SS 11 12 I, JOHN W. BEGLEY, a Registered 13 Professional Reporter - Notary Public, in and for the 14 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, do hereby certify that the 15 foregoing pages are a true and correct transcript of the 16 stenographic notes taken by me in the aforementioned 17 matter on August 11, 1997. 18 19 20 21 22 JOHN W. BEGLEY, RPR 23 COURT REPORTER - NOTARY PUBLIC 24 Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020605 Cuxnming Pa ton, Ph.D. 103 1 INSTRUCTIONS TO THE WITNESS 2 Read your deposition over carefully. It is 3 your right to read your deposition and make any 4 changes in form or substance. You should assign a 5 reason in the appropriate column on the errata 6 sheet for any change made. 7 After making any change in form or 8 substance which has been noted on the following 9 errata sheet along with the reason for any 10 change, sign your name on the errata sheet and 11 date it. 12 Then sign your deposition at the end of 13 your testimony in the space provided. You are 14 signing it subject to the changes you have made in 15 the errata sheet, which will be attached to the 16 deposition before filing. You must sign it in 17 front of a witness. Have the witness sign in the 18 space provided. The witness need not be a notary 19 public. Any competent adult may witness your 20 signature. 21 Return the original errata sheet & transcript 22 to the deposing attorney (attorney asking questions) 23 promptly! Court rules require filing within 30 days 24 after you receive the deposition. Thank you. Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020606 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 105 1 SIGNATURE PAGE 2 OF 3 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. 4 5 6 7 I hereby acknowledge that I have 8 read the aforegoing deposition and that the same is 9 a true and correct transcription of the answers 10 given by me to the questions propounded, except for 11 the changes, if any, noted on the attached errata 12 sheet. 13 14 15 16 17 SIGNATURE: 18 19 20 WITNESSED BY: 21 fZOL 22 23 DATE: 24 Jurist-Begley Reporting Services WATER PCB-SD0000020607 1 2 PAGE LINE 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Cumming Paton, Ph.D. LAWYER'S NOTES Jurist-Begley Reporting Services 106 WATER_PCB-SD0000020608