Document rByNRaqb7591eQy7apzL6k7yG

Page 1 1 STATE OF MICHIGAN IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR THE COUNTY OF GENESEE 2 3 GEORGE L. THOMAS, Personal 4 Representative for the Estate of KIM ANN THOMAS, 5 Deceased, ) ) ) ) ) 6 Plaintiff, )CASE NO. 02-75326-NP )HON. ROBERT YUILLE 7 vs. ) 8 GENERAL MOTORS CORPORATION, et al. 9 Defendants. 10 ) ) ) ) ) 11 12 DEPOSITION OF 13 RICHARD A. LEMEN, Ph.D. 14 November 11, 2005 15 1:00 p.m. 16 17 Holiday Inn Express 18 713 Transit Avenue 19 Canton, Georgia 20 21 Frances Buono, RPR, CCR-B-791 22 23 24 25 Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL 2 3 On behalf of the Plaintiff: 4 AARON J. DeLUCA, Esq. The Lanier Law Firm 5 6810 FM 1960 West Houston, Texas 77069 6 7 On behalf of the Defendant, Garlock Sealing Products, L.L.C.: 8 ROBERT A. BARNABY, II, Esq. 9 Carter & Ansley, LLP Suite 2300 10 1180 West Peachtree Street Atlanta, Georgia 30309 11 12 On behalf of the Defendant, Crown, Cork & Seal: 13 K. MARC BARRE, JR., Esq. 14 Swift, Currie, McGhee & Hiers, LLP 1355 Peachtree Street, N.E. 15 Suite 300 Atlanta, Georgia 30309 16 17 On behalf of the Defendants, Borg-Warner Corporation and CW/IP International, 18 f/k/a Borg-Warner Industrial Products, successor-in-interest to Byron Jackson Pumps: 19 ELIZABETH L. PHIFER, Esq. (By phone) 20 Smith, Underwood & Perkins Two Lincoln Centre, Suite 1900 21 5420 LBJ Freeway Dallas, Texas 75240 22 23 24 25 Page 2 Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL (continued) 2 3 On behalf of the Defendant, General Electric Corporation: 4 CHARLES F. ISELY, Esq. (By phone) 5 Blake, Kirchner, Symonds, MacFarlane, Larson & Smith, P.C. 6 1432 Buhl Building 535 Griswold Street 7 Detroit, Michigan 48226 8 On behalf of the Defendants, 9 Certainteed Corporation and Crane Co.: 10 DALE R. BURMEISTER, Esq. (By phone) Harvey Kruse, P.C. 11 1050 Wilshire Drive Suite 320 12 Troy, Michigan 48084-1526 13 On behalf of the Defendants, 14 General Motors Corporation and Standard Fuel Engineering: 15 STEVEN M. HICKEY, Esq. (By phone) 16 Hickey, Cianciolo & Fishman, P.C. 333 West Fort Street 17 Suite 1800 Detroit, Michigan 48226-3186 18 19 On behalf of the Defendants, Durametallic Corporation, Foster Wheeler Energy 20 Corporation, Westinghouse Electric Corporation, and Parker-Hannifin: 21 WILLIAM E. OSANTOWSKI, Esq. (By phone) 22 Foley & Mansfield, PLLP 24255 West Thirteen Mile Road 23 Suite 200 Bingham Farms, Michigan 48025 24 25 Page 3 Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 4 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL (continued) 2 3 On behalf of the Defendant, Goulds Pumps, Inc.: 4 MARK A. WISNIEWSKI, Esq. (By phone) 5 Kitch, Drutchas, Wagner, DeNardis & Valitutti One Woodward 6 Suite 2400 Detroit, Michigan 48226-3430 7 8 On behalf of the Defendant, Crane Co.: 9 JAMES A. PRANSKE, Esq. (By phone) 10 Kirkpatrick & Lockhart, LLP 2828 North Harwood Street 11 Suite 1800 Dallas,Texas 75201-6966 12 13 Also Present: 14 BRIAN P. FRASIER, Esq. (By phone) Ogne, Alberts & Stuart, P.C. 15 1869 East Maple Road Troy, Michigan 48083-4207 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 (Reporter disclosure made pursuant to 2 Article 8.B. of the Rules and Regulations of the 3 Board of Court Reporting of the Judicial Council 4 of Georgia.) 5 RICHARD A. LEMEN, Ph.D., 6 having been first duly sworn, was examined and 7 testified as follows: 8 EXAMINATION 9 BY MR. BURMEISTER: 10 Q. 11 please? Would you state your name for the record, 12 A. Yes. It is Richard Allen Lemen. 13 Q. Dr. Lemen, when were you first contacted 14 in this case? 15 A. Probably about a month ago. 16 Q. What information have you been provided 17 with? 18 A. I have been provided -- well, I have been 19 provided documents on household exposure and General 20 Motors, but I have had these documents, in addition 21 to the ones I have been shown, in my own possession 22 so they are not new documents to me. 23 Q. I guess I don't quite understand your 24 answer. 25 A. Well, I have a set of documents that I Page 5 Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 brought to the deposition that were given to me by Page 6 2 the Plaintiff's attorney, and most of the articles -- 3 as a matter of fact, I think almost all of the 4 articles, except for a PowerPoint presentation, have 5 been articles that I already have in my possession. 6 Q. And could you identify for the record, 7 please, the articles that you were given by 8 Plaintiff's counsel and describe, if you will after 9 that, the nature of the PowerPoint presentation that 10 you were given? 11 A. The first I will start with are three 12 volumes of studies called Household Exposure Studies, 13 Volume I through III, they contain various articles 14 and they contain National Safety Council documents, 15 IHF documents, and others that fall into the category 16 of household exposure. 17 They are pretty straightforward. I don't 18 think there is anything in there that is a surprise 19 to me or would be a surprise to you. 20 Q. How many articles are there? 21 A. I haven't counted them, but there is three 22 three-ring binders. I guess we could count them, but 23 I have never done that. I would say probably around 24 maybe 40, 50 articles. That may be a low count, but 25 maybe somewhere in that neighborhood. Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 Q. When were you given these articles? 2 A. Well, I was given this set this week, but 3 I, as I said earlier, I had the set, not the same 4 set, but I have the same articles in my possession. 5 Q. And -- 6 A. Are you ready -- 7 Q. -- you mentioned thePowerPoint 8 presentation. How did that come? 9 A. That is in a notebook titled General 10 Motors Documents. The beginning of the General 11 Motors Documents are a series of articles, a copy of 12 attendees at the Saranac Lake Seventh Symposium, and 13 also both the '55 and '52 symposium, I believe. 14 And then there are articles in here that I 15 presume deal with various dust situations from a 16 document called The Health Protection And Foundry 17 Practice. There is a series of other documents 18 dealing with General Motors. 19 Then the PowerPoint presentation, I don't 20 know who put that together, to be honest with you. I 21 presume someone in the Plaintiff's attorney's office 22 put it together, but it is a series of articles that 23 deal with the -- I am trying to think of a way to 24 explain it. 25 There is Johns-Manville documents that are Page 7 Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 Friction Materials Institute as well as General 2 Motors. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. And that's it for what I was given. 5 Q. So that we will have an opportunity to 6 know exactly what you were given, I would like to at 7 this time mark as Exhibit 1 the three volume set of 8 binders that contain the articles you mentioned at 9 the outset 10 As Exhibit 2 we will mark what you 11 described as the GM materials. And then the final 12 deposition exhibit in this series, Exhibit 3, will be 13 the PowerPoint presentation that has been printed out 14 which you believe is about two or 300 pages long? 15 A. That is within the notebook of General 16 Motors. 17 Q. Okay. Well then why don't we just make 18 that part of Exhibit 2, the General Motors notebook? 19 A. Okay. 20 (Defendants' Exhibits 1 and 2 were 21 marked for identification.) 22 Q. (By Mr. Burmeister) And so there is a 23 total of four three-ring binders that you have been 24 given? 25 A. Yes, sir. Page 9 Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 Q. Now, have you seen a copy of the Page 10 2 Deposition Notice for this discovery only deposition, 3 Dr. Lemen? 4 A. No, I haven't. 5 Q. It is indicated that it was a discovery 6 only deposition and that you should bring to it 7 copies of any documents that you received, reviewed, 8 relied upon, or generated in connection with this 9 case. 10 Have you brought all of those materials 11 with you to the deposition, doctor? 12 A. I brought all those materials. In 13 addition, I brought a copy of my Asbestos Timetables, 14 not prepared for this case, but generally for cases 15 where I am asked to discuss state-of-the-art issues. 16 And I also brought, within that timetable, 17 a document titled Scientific Knowledge Concerning 18 Neighborhood Exposure To Asbestos And Disease, and 19 that material comes out of the timeline, but I pulled 20 it out as a separate publication. 21 And finally I brought a copy of my 22 curriculum vitae. 23 Q. Why didn't we mark then as Exhibit 24 Number 3 your overall asbestos timeline. 25 A. Got it. Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 11 1 Q. Exhibit 4 will bethe abridgedversion of 2 that timeline which deals solely with familial or 3 neighborhood type exposures. 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And we haveplenty of copies of your CV so 6 we don't need that, I guess, right now. 7 A. Okay. 8 (Defendants' Exhibits 3 and 4 were 9 marked for identification.) 10 Q. (By Mr. Burmeister) Anything else that 11 you relied upon or generated or prepared for this 12 case? 13 A. That's the totality of what I brought with 14 me today. 15 MR. DELUCA: Mr. Burmeister, this is Aaron 16 DeLuca, I would like to mark his CV as 17 Exhibit 5. 18 MR. BURMEISTER: That's fine. This is a 19 discovery dep so I didn't think weneeded to 20 clutter the record with that, but we can. 21 THE WITNESS: That's done. 22 (Defendants' Exhibit 5 was marked for 23 identification.) 24 Q. (By Mr. Burmeister) Now, Dr. Lemen, have 25 you talked with anybody about this case? Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 A. No, except for Mr. DeLuca. Page 12 2 Q. What is your understanding of your role in 3 this case? What have you been asked to do? 4 A. I have been asked to do, as I understand 5 it, three things. The first thing would be to answer 6 any questions you might have on general 7 state-of-the-art knowledge concerning asbestos and 8 related diseases. 9 Second thing I have been asked to do is to 10 concentrate on answering questions that may be asked 11 of me concerning household exposures. 12 And the third thing that I have been asked 13 to do is to review the General Motors documents that 14 were given to me and to be ready to answer questions 15 concerning those if they should arise. 16 Q. And you have not been asked, have you, to 17 opine on specific causation in this case? 18 A. No. I have not been given any medical 19 records or any other type of records in relationship 20 to the Plaintiff in this case. 21 Q. Now, do you have some general 22 understanding of the nature of the alleged exposure 23 to asbestos in this case? 24 A. My understanding is very simple, that this 25 is a woman, as I understand, who developed Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 mesothelioma whose father worked in a General Motors Page 13 2 facility, and that the type of exposure was to mixed 3 asbestos fibers, including chrysotile as well as 4 amosite. Beyond that, I have no more information. 5 Q. Now the timeline that we have marked as 6 exhibits? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Give me a sense of -- well, let's just 9 take the one that you pulled out of the larger 10 state-of-the-art timeline. Where does that begin and 11 where does that end? 12 A. In the timeline it would begin on page - 13 just a moment. 14 Q. Well, I am interested more in the date? 15 A. Oh, the date it begins? Okay. I 16 misunderstood you. I guess the date that it begins 17 would be back into the 1940s and talking about 18 general issues of take-home exposure in the 19 industrial hygiene literature. 20 And for example, a 1943 U.S. Public Health 21 Service publication called Manual Of Industrial 22 Hygiene and Medical Service In The War Industries, 23 which talks about shower facilities, changing 24 facilities, et cetera, these are not related to just 25 asbestos, but in general they are codes of good Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 industrial hygiene practice. Page 14 2 Another example that goes back even 3 further than that would be talking about a physician 4 in 1897 that actually talked about take-home exposure 5 from workers wearing street clothing to work and then 6 wearing the clothing home and their necessity for 7 discarding that clothing before they left the 8 workplace. 9 Other citations are in 1913 and 1930s. We 10 have Drinker and Hatch talking about controlling dust 11 and clothing. And that brings us up to the asbestos, 12 which starts in around 1965 with the publication of 13 Newhouse and Thompson concerning the community 14 exposures that occurred in the London area from 15 people living near sources of asbestos. And from 16 there it goes further. 17 And one thing that I cite, which 18 summarizes most of this from that point on, is a 19 document to Congress by NIOSH in 1995 that I 20 participated in that was a report that was requested 21 by the Congress concerning family take-home exposure 22 issues. 23 And I mean I can go through each study if 24 you want me to, but that is a pretty good summary of 25 the time frame that I am talking about. Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 15 1 Q. Could you fax the part of the timeline 2 that deals just with this familial exposure state of 3 the art, if you will, to us? 4 A. I guess we could, yes, I will just take it 5 out of there and it will be about three pages. 6 Q. That would be great. I think the court 7 reporter has our fax number, we had some faxes sent 8 out earlier today. 9 A. Actually, it will be four pages. 10 Q. -- Dallas. 11 A. Actually it will be four pages. Somebody 12 is going to take it out and fax it. I guess we can 13 go ahead, is that all right? 14 MR. BARNABY: Yes. 15 THE WITNESS: We can go ahead and keep 16 talking. 17 MR. BURMEISTER: Okay. The fax number -- 18 MR. DELUCA: He has it. 19 THE WITNESS: He has it. 20 Q. (By Mr. Burmeister) Now, you mentioned 21 just in passing, I guess, a reference to Muriel 22 Newhouse, and she is considered one of the founding 23 mothers, if you will, of epidemiology in the world, 24 isn't she? 25 A. I don't know if she is a founding mother Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 of epidemiology, she certainly is one of the more Page 16 2 famous women in this field. I would put her in the 3 same category as Harriet Hardy or Alice Hamilton. 4 Q. And you consider Dr. Newhouse to be an 5 authoritative and reliable source of information on 6 asbestos-related issues? 7 A. Yes, I have always. I don't always agree 8 with everything she says, but I mean, I certainly 9 consider her that and fortunately had the opportunity 10 to talk to her in 1975 and meet her for the first 11 time. 12 Q. Okay. One of the studies that she is most 13 famous for is the study of 13,800 workers over a 14 40-year period using exclusively chrysotile in an 15 asbestos products manufacturing facility; is that 16 correct? 17 A. Which one are you talking about, which 18 publication was that out of? 19 Q. I think the first one was in 1982, and 20 then she subsequently updated it several years later. 21 Dr. Berry wrote the original paper with her of 22 13,800 - 23 A. Right, I am familiar with it now. 24 Q. Okay. And she then followed it up, I 25 think, with a ten year or more update, do you recall Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 that? Page 17 2 A. I do. 3 Q. Okay. And the conclusion that she and 4 Dr. Berry and the other authors drew in those 5 studies, which were massive studies by any standard, 6 weren't they? 7 A. Well, the number of people was a large 8 study. 9 Q. Certainly a long, long-term study, 10 correct? 11 A. Well, I don't have the study right in 12 front of me but yes, it would be considered that. 13 Q. Okay. 40 or 50 years is certainly a long 14 time to study somebody, isn't it? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. I just don't remember -- 18 Q. The conclusion that they drew as a result 19 of this 50-year study of chrysotile exposed workers 20 was that there was no excess mortality from any cause 21 over this entire period; isn't that true? 22 A. Again, I don't remember the exact 23 conclusions of the study, but I believe that that was 24 somewhere in the neighborhood of what they said. 25 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned an article. The Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 article that you mentioned, I should say, from Page 18 2 Dr. Newhouse appeared where in 1965? 3 A. The Newhouse article appeared in -- just a 4 second, I think I have got a reference to it right 5 here. Just a second. I thought -- here it is. 6 Well, I thought I did, just a second. Right. Here 7 it is. British Journal of Industrial Medicine, 8 Volume 22, Page 261. 9 Q. Now, in 1965, actually the last day of the 10 year, another report publication in the field of 11 asbestos hazards was published by the New York 12 Academy of Science, wasn't it? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. And that was the result of Dr. Selikoff's 15 famous conference on the subject? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. And in that publication Dr. Selikoff 18 published several articles, right? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And perhaps his most famous was the one in 21 which he studied asbestos insulation workers; is that 22 right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. And the conclusion that he came to 25 and reported to the world at large that got the Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 Annals of the New York Academy of Science at the end Page 19 2 of December 1965 was that asbestosis and its 3 complications were regarded as significant hazards 4 among asbestos insulation workers in the 5 United States at that time; is that right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And that is quite a famous statement of 8 the state of the art with respect to the Asbestos 9 Workers Union, isn't it? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And are youaware ofanysimilar statement 12 that has been made in the peer review widely 13 disseminated and distributed medical and scientific 14 literature which says: "We may conclude that 15 asbestos-related disease is a significant risk among 16 members of families whose parents work in automobile 17 plants"? 18 A. I don't have anythat talk about parents 19 that work in automobile plants. There are other 20 studies that deal with workers in multiple types of 21 industries, but I don't know of any that deal with 22 automobile plants. 23 Q. And do you know of any that deal with - 24 well first of all, do you know anything about the 25 automobile plant or plants that are involved in this Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 particular case, the Thomas case? Page 20 2 A. No, I don't. 3 Q. So you don't know what was made there or 4 assembled there; is that correct? 5 A. No, I don't. 6 Q. Okay. Now, Doctor, you probably don't 7 remember me but we encountered each other a year ago 8 last summer in Detroit in a case called Chapen, do 9 you remember that case? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And I just want to bring myself up to 12 date. Since the Chapen case you were up here in 13 Detroit for, have you published any additional or new 14 articles or studies? 15 A. Well, I think you are familiar with my 16 paper on Asbestos In Brakes? 17 Q. Right. But that has just been published 18 when you testified in Detroit, correct? 19 A. Right. And I have two letters to the 20 editor in response to that article that had been 21 published since that time, one letter addresses the 22 comments that Dr. Teta had, the second letter -- and 23 they are both in the American Journal Of Industrial 24 Medicine . The second letter addresses the comments 25 that Dr. Art Langer and Victor Roggli made about my Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 paper. Page 21 2 Q. And are both the citations for those 3 letters to the editor on the CV that Mr. DeLuca asked 4 be marked? 5 A. Yes, they are. 6 And then the next paper that I have 7 published since that time was -- let me just turn to 8 my CV so I can give you the exact citations. The 9 next paper was titled Asbestos-Related Disease Risks 10 Still Exist, and it was published in the European 11 Journal Of Oncology, Volume 10, Number 1, Pages 9 12 through 30. That was in 2005. 13 The last article I published was a book 14 chapter titled Epidemiology Of Asbestos-Related 15 Diseases And The Knowledge That Led To What Is Known 16 Today, which is in Asbestos Risk Assessment, 17 Epidemiology And Health Effects, edited by Dr. Dodson 18 and Dr. Hammar and published by Taylor and Frances, 19 and it is my article or my chapter is from Page 201 20 to Page 308. 21 I believe those would be the three or four 22 articles that I have -- or two were letters or 23 responses to letters to the editor and two are 24 articles. That is it. 25 Q. Now, Doctor, in connection with the work Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 with Dr. Dodson and Dr. Hammar for their textbook Page 22 2 Epidemiology Of Asbestos-Related Diseases, did you do 3 any original research on the whole issue of household 4 exposures? 5 A. Well, I didn't do any original research. 6 I reviewed what had been done in the past and 7 basically the knowledge that is in that chapter would 8 correspond to the knowledge that is in my timeline. 9 Q. I see. And have you ever published a 10 paper that deals with the issue of household 11 exposure? 12 A. Well, the 1995 Report to Congress was one 13 that I worked on. I don't claim authorship on that 14 by any means, but that did deal with take-home 15 exposure. Many of the articles that I have written 16 have had sections that deal with take-home exposure, 17 but I have not done any personal studies as original 18 research on take-home exposure. 19 Q. Okay. Doctor, do you have any information 20 on what the time-weighted average exposure is for 21 someone in a household where one of the parents works 22 in an occupation where there is some occupational 23 exposure to asbestos? 24 A. I don't know the answer to that. I know 25 that Dr. Nicholson had looked at asbestos in homes, Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 23 1 but I don 't believe it was in relationship to people 2 that brought it home from their workplace, so I am 3 not sure that any data such as what you are asking 4 exist. 5 Q. Do you have any data on peak exposures 6 that can occur in that setting? 7 A. No. 8 Q. There has been a request in the room that 9 we take a two-minute break, so if you could 10 accommodate us, we would appreciate it. 11 A. That is fine. 12 Q. Thank you. 13 (Recess taken from 1:35 to 1:40 p.m.) 14 Q. (By Mr. Burmeister) Dr. Lemen, would you 15 agree with me that people who have no known exposure 16 to asbestos-containing products can and do have 17 asbestos in their lungs? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And the level of asbestos that you can 20 find in people who have no known exposure to 21 asbestos- containing products is up to one million 22 fibers per gram of tissue, lung tissue? 23 A. Well, it varies by whose writing and who 24 is doing the research, but that is one area, yes. 25 Q. And in some individuals that can be true, Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 correct? Page 24 2 A. That can be in some individuals, correct. 3 It really depends upon where they live, what the 4 source of their exposure might be, et cetera, so it 5 is really dependent upon many different things, but 6 it can be that high. 7 Q. In those people with no known exposure to 8 asbestos, where their lungs have been sampled and 9 millions of fibers have been found, they probably and 10 indeed did have much more exposure to asbestos than 11 are found in the lungs, correct? 12 A. That is probably true. 13 Q. And that is because of the ability of the 14 lung to remove fibers? 15 A. Correct. Well not just the lung but the 16 defense mechanisms to keep it from getting into the 17 lung in the first place. 18 Q. Both? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And as I understand it, it is your view 21 that you cannot rule out this background level of 22 exposure to asbestos that everybody has as the cause 23 or a cause of the mesothelioma, correct? 24 A. That is correct, given the proviso or the 25 fact that any exposure adds to the total body burden Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 so if you are starting at a base exposure of the one Page 25 2 million, any additional exposure you have would add 3 on to that base exposure. 4 So, I don't know of a way to separate that 5 base exposure away from the rest of the exposure and 6 say one had an effect while the other had no effect. 7 Q. And in fact, the way you put it in Detroit 8 when you testified last year about the subject was 9 that you didn't know of any study methodology that 10 could prove it or disprove it, that is, that 11 background exposure caused the mesothelioma, correct? 12 A. That is correct, and that is still correct 13 as I sit here today. 14 Q. Okay. And you also agreed back then, and 15 I assume you still agree, that there are no 16 epidemiological studies showing that exposure below 17 the current permissible occupational level of 18 exposure causes mesothelioma? 19 A. Well, they have been -- the only thing 20 that I am aware of -- well, I am not aware of any 21 studies, that is correct, they have all been 22 estimations based upon a reasonable degree of risk 23 analysis. 24 Q. But your view is that the available 25 methodology does not allow you to say whether an Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 exposure lower than the current standard permissible Page 26 2 level is, in fact, causing mesotheliomas, right? 3 A. I am not sure I followed your question. I 4 think it was the same as what you just asked me 5 before and I don't really have a different answer, 6 but if I don't understand you, please repeat it. 7 Q. Okay. But let me say it slightly 8 differently. You would agree with me that there are 9 no epidemiological studies showing an exposure below 10 the current permissible exposure level to asbestos 11 causes mesothelioma? 12 MR. DELUCA: Object to the form. 13 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't know how you 14 could classify the issue -- I can't ever 15 pronounce it right -- Iwatsubo study, but that 16 study does show extremely low exposures to 17 asbestos, not one particular type, but that is 18 the only one that I know and I am not sure that 19 that would be considered an epidemiological 20 study. 21 Q. (By Mr. Burmeister) Just so that I make 22 sure your views on this haven't changed, let me just 23 read you a question and answer from your testimony in 24 Detroit and see whether we are on the same wavelength 25 and you are of the same view or if that has changed. Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 A. Sure. Page 27 2 Q. This appeared, when consecutively numbered 3 in the Chapen transcript, at Page 169, Line 11. 4 Question: "And you would agree with me that 5 there are no epidemiological studies showing that 6 exposure below the current permissible exposure level 7 caused mesothelioma?" 8 Answer: "There are no epidemiological 9 studies, period, that show below the current exposure 10 level. There have been in excess of mesotheliomas. 11 The available methodology has not allowed us to do 12 that." 13 Do you recall being asked that question 14 and giving that answer in Detroit last year, Doctor? 15 A. I do, and I would still go by that answer 16 given the one provision that I just mentioned to you. 17 But, yes, I would. 18 Q. So you still stand by that answer to that 19 question? 20 A. I do. 21 Q. Okay. Now, Doctor,has medical science 22 come to a generally accepted view on how 23 mesotheliomas are caused? 24 A. Well,when you say caused, that is a broad 25 category. Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 Q. That was a bad question. What I am Page 28 2 driving at, Doctor, is the actual biological process 3 that takes place. 4 A. I am not aware of anyone coming up with 5 that solution. I think if they did it would be very 6 unique. I think there are a lot of people looking 7 for that, but I am unaware that that has ever been 8 discovered. 9 Q. Are you aware that in all cancers there is 10 one cell that starts the process? 11 A. Yes. I am aware of that and aware of the 12 relationship to the P-53 issues dealing with that. 13 Q. And once the process has begun with one 14 cell, then at some point in all cancers the cells 15 just start multiplying, correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Now if, as we have discussed, it starts in 18 one cell, it's certainly biologically plausible, 19 isn't it, that one fiber of asbestos could cause 20 mesothelioma? 21 A. I think the biological plausibility is 22 there. Whether or not the evidence is there is a 23 different question. 24 Q. And you don't know the answerwhether one 25 or ten or more fibers cause mesothelioma, correct? Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 A. I do not know the answer to that. Page 29 2 Q. Or a thousand or 10,000 or a million, 3 right? 4 A. I don't know if there is an identifiable 5 threshold that I could put any number to. 6 Q. You don't think the scientific community 7 or yourself know the answer to those questions about 8 the number, correct? 9 A. Well, if they do, I have not seen any 10 convincing evidence, at least to me, that would be 11 scientifically convincible that such a number exists. 12 I think a number probably does exist, but none that 13 has been identified. 14 Q. Now, you indicated that one of the areas 15 that you are going to be giving opinions or an 16 opinion about is household exposures. Can you flesh 17 that out for me, tell me what it is that you are 18 going to talk about as far as household exposures? 19 A. Yes. I think it can be flushed out pretty 20 simply, that information in the industrial hygiene 21 literature over the years has indicated that toxic 22 materials taken from the workplace and taken home 23 have been responsible for causing disease among 24 members of the household at home. This is not 25 pertaining to asbestos, per se, at this time, but Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 just in general, and that is outlined in my timeline Page 30 2 that I fax that section to you. 3 So, I will be talking about the general 4 industrial hygiene nature, the general industrial 5 hygiene practices of recommending that clothing from 6 work should not be taken home, nor should it be 7 laundered at home, and that there should be adequate 8 changing facilities as well as facilities to shower, 9 and that this has been a part of standard industrial 10 hygiene recommendations since at least back into the 11 1930s and '40s. 12 I will secondly talk more specifically 13 about take-home exposure, and as outlined in what I 14 said to you just recently, I will be talking about 15 the general studies on take-home exposure to 16 community members which indicate low level exposure. 17 I will be talking about what studies exist 18 on household exposures. I will be talking about the 19 Selikoff group and their x-ray findings that 20 Dr. Anderson and others reported in the '79, I think 21 around that time. And I will be relying upon the 22 data that came out in the 1995 Report to Congress on 23 take-home exposure as it pertains to asbestos, and I 24 will talk about some of the feasibility of how 25 take-home exposure can affect individuals in the Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 home, how they might be exposed to the take-home Page 31 2 exposure, not just from laundering clothes, but how 3 it can possibly contaminate the home, how children 4 can be exposed by just playing with a parent or a 5 family member that is wearing contaminated clothing. 6 That will pretty much be the essence of my 7 testimony as I understand it today. 8 Q. And a lot of that or really all of it is 9 fleshed out in the book chapter that you mentioned in 10 the Dr. Dodson's and Dr. Hammar's book that was 11 published earlier this year? 12 A. It is. 13 Q. In going back to the general 14 state-of-the-art opinion category, because I 15 understand there is three categories, there is 16 general state of the art, one; Number 2, household 17 exposures, which you have just described and which we 18 can get some more details from your chapter; and then 19 three is the General Motors specific testimony that 20 you plan to offer. Those are the three categories, 21 right? 22 A. That is correct. 23 Q. Okay. Now on thegeneral state-of-the-art 24 question, we are going to be getting momentarily, I 25 hope, your abbreviated timeline that just deals with Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 household exposure issues, but can you generally Page 32 2 describe to us what the nature and scope of your 3 testimony will be on that area? 4 A. All right. The first part, as I told you, 5 would be the earlier industrial hygiene 6 recommendations and studies that show persons taking 7 home toxic materials from the workplace can carry 8 that risk home to family members. 9 The second will be going into community 10 exposures and how environmental exposures can affect 11 people that live in and around areas and sources of 12 asbestos. 13 The third area that I will go into will be 14 dealing more specifically then with people that have 15 actually developed mesothelioma where their only 16 known exposures were to take-home exposures, and all 17 of the studies that I would rely upon for this 18 testimony are outlined in either my chapter in the 19 Dodson book, my timeline that I am just sending to 20 you, or I guess that would be it, those two areas. 21 And I mean, I am kind of confused as to 22 whether or not you want me to go into each study 23 individually or how do you want to - 24 Q. No, no, that is not necessary at this 25 time, Doctor, at least for my purpose. And that is Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 the basic overall view of what you are going to talk Page 33 2 about in this case, correct? 3 A. In the take-home area, yes, sir. 4 Q. Okay. Incidentally, I know we talked at 5 the beginning of the deposition about not being able 6 to find any information on actual exposure levels 7 that occur in the home, but to follow up on that a 8 little bit, I take it that because data really does 9 not exist in the literature and you haven't created 10 any of your own data on this issue, are we able to 11 say whether household exposures exceed let's say the 12 ACGIH TLV for asbestos dust that was in place for 13 many, many years? 14 A. Let me answer you with first givingyou a 15 little bit of a clarification. What I said earlier 16 in the deposition, I think, you can always go back 17 and read it, but what I think I said was that there 18 were no exposure studies done dealing with take-home 19 exposure and its relationship to the total household 20 exposure, but there have been studies by Selikoff's 21 group of amount of asbestos in homes, but how much of 22 that is related to take-home I can't answer, and - 23 Q. I guess what I am asking is - 24 A. -- and I don't think they can answerthat 25 because I don't think they have done that. Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 Q. Okay. Page 34 2 A. So I don't think any data on that exist. 3 Q. Okay. So as a result, if I understand 4 what you have just told me correctly, it would be 5 that if we were to find somebody, let's say like 6 Dr. Herbert Stockinger, who was the head of the ACGIH 7 meeting setting TLVs for things like asbestos for 8 many, many years, and we told him to go into the home 9 of someone whose parent worked in a factory where 10 there was some asbestos exposure, would you be able 11 to say whether Dr. Stockinger would have concluded 12 that the TLV for asbestos that was set by the ACGIH 13 before OSHA was ever violated? 14 MR. DELUCA: Object to the form. 15 THE WITNESS: In the form of take-home 16 exposure? 17 Q. (By Mr. Burmeister) Yes. 18 A. I don't think he could say that because I 19 don't think anybody has ever measured that. 20 Q. Do you have an opinion on whether you 21 would expect the dust on a time-weighted average in a 22 household setting under those circumstances to exceed 23 the TLV? 24 MR. DELUCA: Objection, form. 25 THE WITNESS: From clothing only or from Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 all sources? Page 35 2 Q. (By Mr. Burmeister) Yeah, from all 3 sources? 4 A. Depends upon how much asbestos was there 5 and what they were doing with it. I mean, if they 6 had take-home exposure on clothing and the worker 7 then at the same time brought home bags that were 8 once used that contained asbestos, such as they did 9 in a study I did in Tyler, Texas, those things added 10 together, yes, can exceed the TLV of what was set by 11 ACGIH. 12 We did some simulation studies of shaking 13 those bags and found they did exceed both the old TLV 14 as well as the current TLV. 15 Q. So you are saying that even though, let's 16 say the factory in which the parent was working, 17 never, ever exceeded the TLV for asbestos, that that 18 person could go home with their clothes and on a 19 time-weighted average, as the TLVs were constructed, 20 which were designed to, you know, eliminate peaks and 21 valleys in exposures, that the TLV would be exceeded 22 in the household? 23 MR. DELUCA: Objection to the form. 24 THE WITNESS: No, that is not at all what 25 I said. Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 Q. (By Mr. Burmeister) Okay. I Page 36 2 misunderstood. 3 A. What I said was, one, it would depend upon 4 what the worker took home, whether he or she took 5 home just their clothing, or as in the case of Tyler, 6 Texas, where they took home old burlap bags that 7 carried asbestos and then used those around the home, 8 that the combination of materials they brought home 9 from the workplace could exceed the threshold limit 10 values depending upon how they used it. 11 But since we have no measurements, I have 12 no way of telling you that just taking work clothing 13 home would ever exceed that concentration. I have no 14 way of knowing one way or the other. 15 Q. And is that also the case for later 16 guidelines and standards and regulations which have 17 gone into place for asbestos? 18 A. Well, it would be true of later guidelines 19 and standards that went in place, even though those 20 guidelines and standards have reduced their 21 concentrations considerably -- 22 Q. Thank you. 23 A. What? 24 Q. Doctor, let me ask you, I want to do -- I 25 want to bring myself up to date a little bit on how Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 much you charge and so forth. Page 37 2 MR. DELUCA: Before you do that, we are 3 going to allow Dr. Lemen to finish his answer, 4 okay? 5 MR. BURMEISTER: Okay. Was it yes or no? 6 MR. DELUCA: You cut him off. 7 THE WITNESS: I hadn't finished when you 8 started talking. 9 What I was saying was, and now I forgot, 10 but what I was saying, basically, if I can go 11 back to the beginning, is that there are no 12 measurements for which to say, but as the 13 concentrations have gone down considerably, it 14 is possible but we don't know because we don't 15 have any data to show one way or the other if 16 they did or did not exceed any of the current 17 standards that are in effect. 18 Q. (By Mr. Burmeister) Okay. Are you 19 finished? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay, thank you. Now, as I understand it, 22 you charge or at least last year you were charging 23 $350 per hour; is that correct? 24 A. No, last year I was charging $400. 25 Q. Okay. And are you charging the same Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 amount this year? Page 38 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And do you still have a minimum charge for 4 a deposition? 5 A. I do. $2400. 6 Q. And what about for trials, do you have a 7 minimum charge for that? 8 A. The same as a deposition, $2400. 9 Q. I understand that you are taking home 10 about a quarter of a million dollars or more from 11 asbestos litigation a year; is that right? 12 A. I would say that is correct, yes, sir. 13 Q. And it accounts for a majority of your 14 income each year? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And since you retired from the government 17 in 1996 , would it be fair to say that you have made 18 several million dollars from asbestos litigation? 19 A. I don't know the exact amount, but 20 certainly over a million dollars is well taken. 21 Q. And would you say that most of your work 22 is for Plaintiff's attorneys in asbestos litigation? 23 A. Yes, I would. 24 Q. Have you done any for Defendants? 25 A. I have consulted with Defendants. I Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 haven't ever gone to trial with Defendants, but I do Page 39 2 have consultations with various Defendant law firms 3 from time to time. 4 Q. Have you ever given a deposition for a law 5 firm that represented a Defendant? 6 A. Other than when I first started, and I 7 think you have heard this before, for a law firm that 8 was a Defendant and represented insurance companies 9 that were being -- I guess they would have been 10 Plaintiffs. So the answer is no. 11 Q. The nature of the work that you have done 12 for Defendant law firms, can you describe that for 13 me, please? 14 A. Well, first of all, I have consulted for 15 them by answering questions about cases they have. I 16 have been asked to testify in certain cases if they 17 do go to trial. None have at the present time. And 18 that is about the best I can describe it. 19 Q. Have you ever issued a report, or written 20 a report, for a law firm representing a Defendant in 21 an asbestos case? 22 A. I don't think so. 23 Q. Have you ever been consulted by a law firm 24 representing a Defendant in a mesothelioma case? 25 A. That is a good question. I don't think Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 so. Page 40 2 Q. Have you ever been asked by a law firm 3 representing a Defendant to consult on a household 4 exposure case? 5 A. No. 6 MR. BURMEISTER: Doctor, I don't believe I 7 have any further questions at this time. Thank 8 you very much. 9 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 10 MS. ISELY: This is Chuck Isely, I don't 11 have any questions for the Doctor. Thank you. 12 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 13 MR. DELUCA: Okay. Well, everybody have a 14 good weekend then. 15 EXAMINATION 16 BY MR. WISNIEWSKI: 17 Q. Dr. Lemen, my name is Mark Wisniewski, I 18 just have some Michigan-specific questions for you, 19 so you may or may not know the answer to. 20 Do you know if Michigan ever adopted the 21 ACGIH TLV? 22 A. I don't remember. 23 Q. Do you know if any states adopted the 24 ACGIH TLV? 25 A. I know of some states, yes. For example, Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 Texas adopted it. There were other states also, but Page 41 2 as I sit here I can't remember them. 3 Q. You have no specific knowledge whether 4 Michigan adopted the TLV? 5 A. No. I could probably find that out, but I 6 really haven't made that a part of what I have 7 studied. 8 Q. If Michigan adopted the TLV and applied to 9 an occupational setting -- actually, strike that. 10 The exposure that you talk about in a 11 household setting, is there any literature regarding 12 an employee who actually never worked with an 13 asbestos-containing product but was just around an 14 asbestos-containing product and took that exposure 15 home? 16 MR. DELUCA: Object to the form. 17 THE WITNESS: I am unaware of any such 18 studies. 19 Q. (By Mr. Wisniewski) You would agree with 20 me that most of the studies regarding household 21 exposure were involving workers who actually either 22 installed or removed asbestos-containing materials 23 and then took that exposure home? 24 MR. DELUCA: Objection, foundation. 25 THE WITNESS: I don't think that the Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 42 1 studies that I have seen, for example, the ones 2 I have read, specifically identify whether or 3 not all of the individuals worked directly with 4 the asbestos or not. 5 Q. (By Mr. Wisniewski) Do you know if 6 Ms. Thomas' father worked with asbestos-containing 7 materials? 8 A. As I said at the beginning, I have no 9 information on the Plaintiff or any of her family 10 members. 11 Q. And with that in mind, you really have no 12 information as to what Ms. Thomas' exposure was? 13 A. No, I don't. I was not asked to testify 14 in that area. 15 Q. Well, I guess my question is if you are 16 being asked to testify about household exposures, or 17 I can't remember how you broke it down, or take-home 18 exposures, wouldn't it be important to know what the 19 take-home exposure was in this case? 20 A. I have not been asked to opine any 21 relationship of the state-of-the-art knowledge to 22 this particular case. 23 Q. I guess I am a little bit confused. You 24 said answer questions regarding household exposures, 25 what did you mean by that? Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 43 1 A. I meant that I would be talking about the 2 state-of-the-art knowledge concerning household 3 exposures. I will not be talking about anything 4 specific to the Plaintiff in this case because I have 5 no information on the Plaintiff in which to make any 6 comment about how these studies would relate to the 7 Plaintiff in this case's exposure because I don't 8 know what the Plaintiff's exact exposure was. 9 I only know, as I said earlier, that the 10 Plaintiff developed mesothelioma, was exposed 11 supposed, from what I was told, only to take-home 12 exposure from her father who worked at a General 13 Motors facility. 14 I have no idea how long he worked at the 15 facility or what he did at the facility or whether he 16 was even exposed to asbestos, other than what I just 17 gave you. 18 Q. Doctor, you would agree with me then that 19 if you don't know what the exposure of a household 20 exposure is in this case, you would have difficulty 21 determining whether some of the studies that you are 22 going to discuss are actually relevant to this 23 lawsuit? 24 A. I have no idea whether they are relevant 25 to the lawsuit. What I have been asked to do is to Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 bring to this case and bring to this deposition and Page 44 2 this trial the knowledge that is in the literature 3 concerning take-home exposure. 4 I presume that a treating physician or 5 someone else will be talking about the exact risk of 6 the Plaintiff and the connection to take-home 7 exposure in this case. I have not been asked to do 8 that nor will I attempt to do that. 9 Q. You would agree with me that -- or 10 actually do you know what the last year she was 11 exposed to asbestos was? 12 A. Sir, as I said earlier, I don't have any 13 information on case particulars in this case, and for 14 me to say anything beyond what I have said would be 15 pure speculation and I don't intend to do that at 16 trial. 17 Q. Well, you will agree with me that any 18 knowledge that came out after her last year of 19 exposure would not be part of the state of the art as 20 to this Plaintiff? 21 MR. DELUCA: Object to the form. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't know the answer to 23 that. I mean, it wouldn't be state of the art 24 at the time of exposure, but it certainly would 25 be state of the art in the general overall Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 45 1 picture of our knowledge that has developed 2 about take-home exposure. 3 As to your question, I think that is 4 really a legal determination that I have not 5 been asked to address. 6 Q. (By Mr. Wisniewski) If you could, what 7 was the state of the art as it relates to workers 8 taking -- or household exposure in 1957? 9 A. The state-of-the-art knowledge in 1957 10 dealt with the industrial hygiene literature 11 discussing the potential for take-home exposure and 12 disease dating back to the late 1800s, as I have 13 outlined in my material I have sent down to you. 14 Nothing specific up to 1957 to asbestos, 15 but there was a multitude, I don't know multitude, 16 that is the wrong term, there was a lot of 17 information in the industrial hygiene literature 18 warning against allowing workers to wear clothing 19 that was contaminated with toxic material home from 20 the workplace. 21 The actual knowledge dealing with 22 asbestos, as I said, started around 1965. 23 Q. So from 1957 to 1965, there was no 24 specific state-of-the-art knowledge as it related to 25 asbestos and household exposure? Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 46 1 MR. DELUCA: Object to the form. 2 THE WITNESS: There were recommendations 3 in industrial hygiene literature that take-home 4 exposure could occur when workers wore clothing 5 home from the workplace. 6 There had been no studies at that time for 7 asbestos, but there was plenty of knowledge 8 warning of the potential for take-home exposure 9 and actual knowledge of examples of take-home 10 exposure for a few other chemicals, but nothing 11 that was specific other than the potential for 12 disease at that point in time. 13 Q. (By Mr. Wisniewski) Do you know of a 14 single example of a single employer in the 15 United States that had a practice of not allowing 16 their workers to take their work clothes home where 17 there was asbestos fibers on the work clothes? 18 MR. DELUCA: Objection. 19 THE WITNESS: First of all, I have never 20 been asked to look in that area; and secondly, 21 that is not an area that I would do in my 22 general research in the first place. 23 Q. (By Mr. Wisniewski) So I guess your 24 answer is you don't have any knowledge of any such 25 corporate policy of any single corporation in the Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 United States? Page 47 2 MR. DELUCA: Objection. 3 THE WITNESS: My knowledge isthat I have 4 never looked. 5 Q. (By Mr. Wisniewski) Do you know if the 6 government, government employees, require their 7 employees not to take clothing home that had asbestos 8 dust on them from '57 to '65? 9 MR. DELUCA: Objection. 10 THE WITNESS: Again, I have never looked, 11 but I do know that the Public Health Service, 12 starting in '43, certainly made a strong 13 recommendation that they not do that, and that 14 is cited in the Manual Of IndustrialHygiene And 15 Medical Service In The War Industries as 16 reported in 1943. 17 Q. (By Mr. Wisniewski) That specifically 18 addresses asbestos dust on clothing? 19 A. No, it addresses take-home. I didn't know 20 you were asking just asbestos dust. 21 Q. Since this is an asbestos case, I am going 22 to ask my questions about asbestos. 23 A. I don't know of anything about asbestos, 24 sir. 25 Q. Do you know a single instance when a union Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 required its members not to take clothing home that Page 48 2 had asbestos on it? 3 MR. DELUCA: Objection. 4 THE WITNESS: I have never looked and I 5 don't know. 6 Q. (By Mr. Wisniewski) So you never looked 7 and you don't know about the unions, any employer in 8 the United States or the government as it relates to 9 asbestos? 10 A. No, I don't, that is not something in my 11 expertise that I would have looked at. 12 Q. Do you know anything about the 13 neighborhood that Ms. Thomas lived in? 14 A. Sir, I have no information on anything 15 about Ms. Thomas. 16 Q. As it relates to the neighborhood, I guess 17 what is going to be your testimony about neighborhood 18 exposure? 19 A. Well, that is outlined in what I have sent 20 down to you. I will be talking about neighborhood 21 exposure as relates to asbestos starting in 1965 with 22 the Newhouse and Thompson report, and going forward 23 from there. 24 Q. And what is your opinion as to someone who 25 lives in an urban area around industrial settings? Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 49 1 A. Well, that is exactly what Newhouseand 2 Thompson looked at and found that there wasn't a 3 potential risk from those type of exposures. 4 Q. So if Ms. Thomas lived in a house in an 5 industrial area, she was at risk of getting asbestos 6 exposure from that industrial setting? 7 A. It depends upon whether or not the 8 industrial setting had asbestos in it. If they had 9 asbestos, then there is that potential, yes. 10 Q. How about asbestos exposure at her 11 schools? 12 MR. DELUCA: Objection, foundation. 13 THE WITNESS: That is another potential 14 source if asbestos was in the schools. 15 Q. (By Mr. Wisniewski) Are you going togive 16 any testimony about giving a quantitative analysis 17 between a potential school exposure, a potential 18 neighborhood exposure, versus a potential household 19 exposure from her father? 20 A. No, I have no data on which to dothat and 21 I don't intend to do that. 22 Q. But it is your belief or your 23 understanding that the exposures could have come from 24 any one of those three places? 25 A. I don't know the answer to that in this Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 particular case, but in answer to your question, if Page 50 2 there were sources of asbestos in any of those three 3 places, yes, exposure could have come from any of 4 those three places. 5 Q. And I guess I will add a fourth one, even 6 if she worked somewhere that contained asbestos? 7 A. That is true, too. 8 Q. You don't know what she did? 9 A. I have no idea. 10 MR. WISNIEWSKI: Okay. Thank you, Doctor. 11 THE WITNESS: You are welcome. 12 EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. OSANTOWSKI: 14 Q. Doctor, my name is Bill Osantowski , and I 15 represent Durametallic Corporation. I have a few 16 questions , and based on your previous testimony, I 17 think we are all going to know the answer but I just 18 want to pin it down, okay? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Have you been provided with any 21 information or documents indicating that Ms. Thomas 22 was exposed to any products attributable to 23 Durametallic Corporation? 24 A. No, I haven't. 25 Q. Accordingly, you are not prepared to offer Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 51 1 any opinions that any of the products associated with 2 Durametallic Corporation played any role in the 3 development of Ms. Thomas' disease, is that accurate? 4 A. No, I am not. 5 Q. The statement is accurate? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you have any documents or other 8 information at all concerning the corporate knowledge 9 Durametallic Corporation may have had at any given 10 point in time regarding potential health hazards 11 associated with asbestos exposure? 12 A. No, I don't. 13 Q. It is fair to say then that you have no 14 intention to offer any opinions in this case 15 specifically regarding Durametallic or its products, 16 is that accurate? 17 A. Not unless I am given information between 18 now and trial, but I don't intend to get that 19 information. 20 Q. So the statement isaccurate? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You have no intention to quantify the 23 exposures in this case whatsoever, is that accurate? 24 A. Correct. 25 MR. OSANTOWSKI: That is all I have. Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 Thank you, Doctor. Page 52 2 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 3 EXAMINATION 4 BY MS. PHIFER: 5 Q. Doctor, this is Elizabeth Phifer. 6 A. Hello Elizabeth, how are you? 7 Q. I am doing fine; how are you doing? 8 A. Fine. 9 Q. I have a very short question for you and 10 that would be: With regard the automotive friction 11 products , have your opinions changed any since you 12 testified in Houston in the Havner hearing? 13 A. I don't believe so. 14 Q. Then I don't have any more questions for 15 you, Doctor. 16 A. Thank you. Elizabeth? 17 Q. Yes, sir. 18 A. The latest testimony I did on brakes , 19 though, was in the hearing, it wasn't Havner, but 20 Daubert hearing in Delaware, which was about -- 21 Q. When was that? 22 A. About two weeks ago. 23 Q. And I assume that your testimony in 24 Delaware would have been substantially similar to 25 that you gave in Houston? Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 53 1 A. Yes. But I just wanted, if you don't know 2 about it, to let you know that that was the last time 3 I made any comments. 4 MS. PHIFER: Great. I appreciate that, 5 thank you. 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. HICKEY: 8 Q. Dr. Lemen, can you hear me? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. My name is Steve Hickey, I am here today 11 on behalf of General Motors. 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. You said that the third, I guess, task 14 that you were asked to fulfill in this case was to 15 talk about or to address the GM documents or some 16 type of GM information; is that correct? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Can you tell me what you have been asked 19 to do and what your anticipated testimony is in this 20 respect? 21 A. Yes, I have been asked to basically 22 testify as to the state of knowledge that General 23 Motors had in relation to asbestos and to industrial 24 hygiene and also to disease potential from exposure 25 to asbestos. Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 54 1 The documents that I received relate to 2 documents that General Motors had or produced in this 3 case that talk back in time to the 1930s when their 4 medical department started and the participation of 5 their medical department and multiple conferences 6 dealing with asbestos, and the participation of 7 members of the General Motors medical family and 8 their involvement with asbestos and asbestos-related 9 diseases. 10 I think that these documents summarize 11 that quite succinctly. I am not going to make any 12 speculations beyond these documents. 13 Q. These documents are contained in the 14 exhibits that have been marked as - 15 A. Exhibit 2. 16 MR. HICKEY: Can we have a commitment that 17 a copy of this exhibit is going to be made and 18 made at my expense and sent up here, Aaron? 19 MR. DELUCA: It is attached as Exhibit 2 20 to this deposition and will be a permanent 21 record of the State of Michigan. 22 MR. HICKEY: So all of the exhibits are 23 being attached then? 24 MR. DELUCA: Absolutely, and we will file 25 them with the court. Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 MR. HICKEY: Great. Page 55 2 Q. (By Mr. Hickey) It is difficult for me to 3 go through those documents now. Are these things 4 that you obtained only in this case or were you 5 familiar with these before? 6 A. I think it is fair to say that I was 7 familiar with many of these before this case, that 8 some deal with publications in the medical literature 9 that I had copies of, such as articles out of Safety 10 Engineering, articles from the Industrial Hygiene 11 Foundation, abstracts of Industrial Hygiene 12 Foundation, rosters of people that attended the 13 Saranac Laboratory's meetings, copies out of Frank 14 Patty's original Patty's, and I really don't think 15 there is much in here that I would say that I haven't 16 seen in the past or been familiar with, except I 17 would say for the PowerPoint presentation that we 18 talked about earlier. 19 Q. Does the PowerPoint presentation make 20 specific reference to General Motors? 21 A. PowerPoint makes specific reference to 22 articles that I am familiar with, I just hadn't seen 23 the PowerPoint presentation in this format, but all 24 the articles in the PowerPoint I have seen and they 25 are not specific to General Motors, but they are Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 specific in the fact that General Motors had access Page 56 2 to these documents, either through membership of 3 trade organizations or other type of organizations, 4 and that information I have been able to deem from 5 what is attached in here as Dr. Castleman's chapter 6 on General Motors. 7 So, that is the way this information came 8 about and how I would relate it. 9 Q. Have you been asked to testify on behalf 10 of Plaintiffs in a case against General Motors 11 involving asbestos exposure previously? 12 A. On these Plaintiffs? 13 Q. No, just any Plaintiffs at all? 14 A. Yes, I think I have, but I mean, I have in 15 principally cases involving brake exposure. 16 Q. When is the last time that you did that? 17 A. The Delaware hearing I would say would be 18 the last time I testified on brake exposure. General 19 Motors was a participant in that hearing. 20 Q. When was that? 21 A. That was about two weeks ago. It was in 22 Wilmington , Delaware. 23 Q. Were the documents that are contained in 24 Exhibit 2 that pertain to General Motors, were those 25 the subject of that testimony? Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 57 1 A. No. Some of the documents were but not 2 all of them. As I say, the PowerPoint presentation 3 was not a part of that. Some of the documents in the 4 PowerPoint presentation were, but, no, this was 5 not -- I can't say that these documents weren't 6 addressed at some point in the presentation, but that 7 presentation was presently dealing with brakes and 8 brake exposure, whereas these documents go broader 9 than that. 10 Q. Outside of the friction products type of 11 case, have you testified against General Motors in an 12 asbestos-related case? 13 MR. DELUCA: Object to the form. 14 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge. 15 Q. (By Mr. Hickey) The PowerPoint 16 presentation that you are referring to, it sounds to 17 me like something that you did not rely on as you 18 formulated your opinions in this case, am I correct? 19 A. Well, I didn't really rely upon it other 20 than having reviewed it in preparation for coming, 21 but as I said, almost every article that is in the 22 PowerPoint presentation that is referred to I have 23 seen before. 24 Q. Was there any article that was provided to 25 you in Exhibit 2, other than the PowerPoint Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 presentation itself, an article that was new to you? Page 58 2 A. You know, I didn't recall any being new to 3 me, I think I had seen almost everything except maybe 4 this one document that deals with -- if I can get to 5 the first of it, just a minute, please -- a foundry 6 document that is in here. 7 I am trying to get to the front of it. It 8 takes up a lot of the book, actually. And it is 9 titled Health Protection And Foundry Practice from 10 the American Foundrymen's Society. I don't think I 11 had seen that before. And it is about -- I would say 12 it may be almost 500 pages. 13 Q. Did you read that before commencing this 14 deposition today? 15 A. I went through it. I won't tell you I 16 read every line, no, sir. 17 Q. Did it serve to edify you in any way about 18 things concerning GM that you did not know before? 19 A. No. 20 Q. What are your opinions with respect to 21 General Motors as they relate to the tasks that you 22 were assigned in this case? 23 A. I think my opinions for General Motors can 24 be summarized by saying that it was a company that 25 had a very sophisticated medical department and very Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 well-known members of its medical department in the Page 59 2 field of occupational health and safety, and that 3 many of those members contributed vast amounts of 4 information, to our knowledge, about health and 5 safety of the workplace, and were actually leaders in 6 that field, and that GM certainly knew, through their 7 knowledge, of health aspects of exposure to asbestos 8 and many of the potential types of exposures, 9 including take-home. 10 I think Patty's Toxicology Textbook is a 11 good example of that, that outlines good industrial 12 hygiene practice. 13 So, I think my testimony about General 14 Motors, based upon these documents, would be that it 15 was a very well staffed and very accomplished program 16 in industrial hygiene and health and safety - 17 Q. In terms of the temporal sequence of 18 things, what is it that you are opining General 19 Motors knew in the things they outlined? 20 A. I think they started knowing this back in 21 the '30s, when Dr. Selby, I think it was, was the 22 first medical director, and then during the '40s 23 Frank Patty and others were members of their staff, 24 and so I think they were some of the leaders in 25 learning about information on asbestos and disease. Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 Q. Do any of the documents that are in Page 60 2 Exhibit 2, or any other documents concerning GM of 3 which you are aware, specifically address take-home 4 exposures to asbestos? 5 A. Well, I think that you will find in some 6 of the articles that are in here references to some 7 of the take-home literature, but not in the '40s, 8 '30s and '40s because it really didn't exist on 9 asbestos. So, later on, yes, but not during that 10 early time frame. 11 Q. What articles that are in Exhibit 2 or 12 that you are otherwise familiar with that are GM 13 documents specifically address take-home risks of 14 asbestos exposure? 15 A. I don't think in Exhibit 2 thereare any 16 of those articles that are attached that are specific 17 to asbestos. 18 I think there are articles in here that 19 talk about asbestos, but not necessarily the 20 take-home potential from asbestos and certainly no 21 studies done that I am aware of. 22 But, there are certainly references, such 23 as in the very least an employer should know about 24 dust and fume diseases, and they imply and talk about 25 the hazards from exposure to asbestos. Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 61 1 The book by Lanza, Silicosis And Asbestos, 2 talks specifically about garages and about asbestos 3 exposure. National Safety Council documents do, too, 4 but I don't think you will find anything specific to 5 asbestos, other than what I have just told you. And 6 I think there is a wealth of information about how 7 toxic asbestos is and how exposures can lead to 8 disease. 9 Q. Your putting together then the industrial 10 hygiene information about take-home exposures 11 generally with information about health risks from 12 asbestos, saying that General Motors knew or should 13 have known as of when that take-home exposures to 14 asbestos would pose a risk to members of the 15 household? 16 A. In my opinion, General Motors should have 17 known, dating back at least to the '40s and the '30s, 18 that asbestos, one, caused disease. And they should 19 have been aware of how those exposures might occur 20 from the industrial hygiene literature dating back to 21 that same time that I have outlined showing how 22 take-home of other toxic materials can result in 23 disease of household members, that as sophisticated 24 as the General Motors staff was, that that would be 25 something that they should have been well aware and Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 able to put together. Page 62 2 Q. I want to distinguish for a minute, 3 Doctor, between asbestos exposures to people who are 4 working with raw fiber, either mining, milling or 5 manufacturing of asbestos-containing products, and 6 exposures to people who are looking around products 7 fractionally comprised of asbestos, such as pipe 8 covering and insulation materials. If you can follow 9 me with that, okay? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What is the earliest study that addressed 12 the issue of take-home exposures to persons in the 13 households of workers exposed to products 14 fractionally comprised of asbestos, such as 15 insulation products, but who are not involved in the 16 actual manufacture of asbestos-containing products 17 themselves, mining or milling, dealing with raw 18 fiber? 19 A. I would have to go back and look at the 20 literature, but I believe that the Newhouse and 21 Thompson talked about a friction exposed worker. I 22 can't remember, though, if that was in a factory 23 manufacturing friction products or if it was in a 24 person exposed to friction products, I just don't 25 have an answer to that. Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 Q. Is there any other study that you can 2 think of that addresses my question besides Newhouse Page 63 3 and Thompson? 4 A. From encapsulated products such as brakes 5 and so forth, I don't know of any. 6 Q. I will also, though, include insulation 7 materials, like pipe covering? 8 A. Oh, well in that case, yes, they go back. 9 Selikoff's articles talk about that in the '60s. 10 There are multiple articles outlined in my paper that 11 I sent to you that talk about that. 12 Q. About take-home exposures? 13 A. About the potential for take-home, yes. 14 Q. Your article, the four pages I should say 15 that you sent me, make reference to a number of 16 studies, for instance the 1897 Netolitzky, 17 N-e-t-o- l-i-t-z-k-y, from 1897? 18 A. Right. Those were the earlier studies 19 that talked about take-home exposure of toxic 20 materials, nothing about asbestos, but just the 21 general issue of potential for take-home exposures. 22 Nothing specific to asbestos, as I have stated 23 before, occurred until about 1965. 24 Q. Okay. And I take it, because I don't have 25 it here in front of me and I can't recall, there are Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 64 1 citations to the journals from which all these 2 publications came from in the back of your book, 3 perhaps? 4 A. Yes, there are, and also in my timeline, 5 which is marked Exhibit Number 3. And I think you 6 will find many of them in the Household Exposure 7 Notebooks, Volumes I, II and III, that are attached 8 as Exhibit 1. 9 Q. Okay. Other than the timeline that you 10 have referred to here and that you have sent us four 11 pages of, have you yourself authored anything that 12 deals with take-home exposures of asbestos? 13 A. Well, yes, my papers that I have written 14 in the past have discussed take-home exposure. As I 15 said to an earlier questioner, I have never done a 16 study, personally, of take-home exposure, but I have 17 referred to it in my publications. 18 Q. What is the earliest publication that you 19 ever wrote that dealt specifically with take-home 20 exposures to asbestos? 21 A. I am not sure I can answer that without 22 going back and looking at my publications, I just 23 don't know the answer. 24 Q. You would have to actually look at the 25 publications and not just your CV, is that what you Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 are telling me? Page 65 2 A. Yes. I mean, I have talked about it in 3 presentations dating back into the '70s. I really 4 can't recall the first time I wrote it down in a 5 published paper. 6 MR. HICKEY: Okay. I don't think Ihave 7 any other questions right now. 8 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 9 MR. HICKEY: Aaron, that is everybody in 10 Detroit. 11 EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. BARNABY: 13 Q. Doctor, when is the last time you have 14 testified in a case that involved household exposure? 15 MR. HICKEY: I can't hear the questioner. 16 Maybe he needs to move closer because otherwise, 17 Doctor, you are going to end up repeating 18 everything like it is a press conference or 19 something. 20 THE WITNESS: All right. 21 Q. (By Mr. Barnaby) Dr. Lemen, when is the 22 last time you testified in a case involving household 23 exposure? 24 A. Probably about four or five months ago. I 25 can't remember the case name. Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 Q. Do you remember the state? Page 66 2 A. Actually, I think I did a deposition in 3 Georgia not too long ago about take-home exposure. 4 Q. In a Georgia case? 5 A. I think it was a Georgia case, yes. I can 6 try and find out and give it to you, I just, as I sit 7 here, my mind is blank on that. 8 Q. Do you remember who the Plaintiff's firm 9 was who is representing the Plaintiff -- 10 A. Actually, it wasn't a Georgia case, I will 11 take that back, it was a deposition in Georgia in a 12 Louisiana case, and it was a case two weeks ago 13 called Cortiere or Cortiere and it settled so it 14 won't go to trial. Cortiere is how you pronounce it. 15 I am not good at French. 16 Q. What is your estimate about the number of 17 times you have testified in household exposure cases? 18 A. I would say maybe six to ten times. 19 Q. Do you recall the names of any of those 20 cases other than the most recent one? 21 A. No, I don't. I am sorry. 22 Q. Do you maintain a list of the cases in 23 which you have testified? 24 A. I do, but I don't identify them as to what 25 they -- other than whether it was an asbestos case or Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 a benzene case or -- but I don't give any more Page 67 2 specific in my list. 3 Q. What do you call that list or -- is it a 4 computer file? 5 A. It is a computer file just titled the list 6 of depositions and trial testimony that I maintain in 7 accordance with federal regulations when I do a 8 federal trial. 9 Q. Do you keep track of testimony you give in 10 cases that are pending in state courts? 11 A. Yes, I do. 12 Q. Is that just completed within that same 13 list? 14 A. Yes. 15 MR. BARNABY: Thank you, sir. 16 THE WITNESS: You are welcome. 17 MR. DELUCA: Anyone else? 18 Dr. Lemen, you are to send me an invoice 19 for your time spent for today's deposition and I 20 will forward that to Mr. Burmeister, who has 21 pledged to pay. 22 MR. BURMEISTER: I am sorry, Mr. DeLuca, 23 could you repeat that? I heard my name and that 24 piqued my interest. 25 MR. DELUCA: I told Dr. Lemen to send me Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 68 1 an invoice for his time and that I would forward 2 that to you. 3 MR. BURMEISTER: Okay, thank you. 4 MR. DELUCA: And that you have agreed to 5 pay. 6 MR. BURMEISTER: That is right. 7 MR. WISNIEWSKI: Aaron, it's Mark 8 Wisniewski., I just have one more question for 9 Dr. Lemen in response to one of Steve's 10 questions. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 12 FURTHER EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. WISNIEWSKI: 14 Q. Doctor, you talked about that you received 15 documents, General Motors documents, and also a part 16 of Dr. Castleman's book as it relates to General 17 Motors. Have you ever been retained to talk about 18 any specific corporate knowledge of any other 19 Defendant in this case? 20 A. Not at this time, no, sir. 21 Q. They didn't provide other chapters of 22 Dr. Castleman's book as it relates to other 23 Defendants? 24 A. Well, as I said, the chapter that I 25 received or the portion that I received -- and I do Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 69 1 have the whole book, several -- I have got all of the 2 editions of the book, but I got it on the friction 3 products or Friction Products Manufacturing 4 Association and General Motors were the two parts of 5 what I was sent. 6 Q. But no one has asked you to date to give 7 opinions regarding corporate knowledge or state of 8 the art as to any other product manufacturer besides 9 General Motors? 10 MR. DELUCA: Are you talking about 11 Defendant-specific opinions as opposed to 12 general state of the art? 13 MR. BURMEISTER: Yes. 14 MR. DELUCA: Go ahead. 15 THE WITNESS: So far as Iknow, no. 16 Q. (By Mr. Wisniewski) I guess the question 17 will be actual knowledge versus constructive 18 knowledge? 19 A. I don't know the difference between active 20 and constructive, but I am not going to be talking 21 about any other Defendants at this time. I was told 22 that only General Motors was the only one I would be 23 talking about. Mr. DeLuca can correct that if I'm 24 wrong. 25 MR. WISNIEWSKI: Thankyou, Doctor. Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 70 1 THE WITNESS: Am I wrong? Thank you. 2 Have a nice weekend. 3 (Pursuant to Rule 30(e) of the Federal 4 Rules of Civil Procedure and/or O.C.G.A. 5 9-11-30(e), the deponent and/or a party having 6 requested the right to review the deposition, 7 making corrections and/or changes and signing, 8 for that purpose the errata pages have been 9 annexed hereto.) 10 (Deposition concluded at 2:50 p.m.) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 INDEX TO EXAMINATIONS 2 Examination 3 4 Examination by Mr. Burmeister 5 Examination by Mr. Wisniewski 6 Examination by Mr. Osantowski 7 Examination by Ms. Phifer 8 Examination by Mr. Hickey 9 Examination by Mr. Barnaby 10 Further Examination by Mr. Wisniewski 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 Page 71 Page 5 40 50 52 53 65 68 404-876-8979 Page 72 1 2 DefendantsI' INDEX TO EXHIBITS Exhibit Description Page 3 4 1 Three Volumes - Household Exposure Studies 9 5 2 Binder - General Motors Documents 9 c6 3 Asbestos Timetables 11 n7 4 Article - Scientific Knowledge 8 Concerning Neighborhood Exposure to Asbestos and Disease Q9 5 Dr. Lemen's Curriculum Vitae 11 11 10 11 12 (Original Exhibits 3 through 5 and photocopies of Exhibits 1 and 2 have been attached to the 13 original transcript. Original Exhibits 1 and 2 have been retained by Dr. Lemen.) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 73 1 CE RT I F I CATE 2 3 STATE OF GEORGIA: 4 COUNTY OF FULTON: 5 6 I hereby certify that the foregoing 7 transcript was taken down, as stated in the 8 caption, and the questions and answers thereto 9 were reduced to typewriting under my direction; 10 that the foregoing pages 1 through 73 represent 11 a true, complete, and correct transcript of the 12 evidence given upon said hearing, and I further 13 certify that I am not of kin or counsel to the 14 parties in the case; am not in the regular 15 employ of counsel for any of said parties; nor 16 am I in anywise interested in the result of said 17 case. 18 This, the 12th day of November, 2005. 19 20 21 Frances Buono, CCR-B-791 My commission expires on the 22 25th day of April, 2007. 23 24 25 Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 1 COURT REPORTER DISCLOSURE 2 DEPOSITION OF: RICHARD A. LEMEN, Ph. D. 3 Pursuant to Article 8.B. of the Rules and 4 Regulations of the Board of Court Reporting of the Judicial Council of Georgia which states: "Each court 5 reporter shall tender a disclosure form at the time of the taking of the deposition stating the 6 arrangements made for the reporting services of the certified court reporter, by the certified court 7 reporter, the court reporter's employer, or the referral source for the deposition, with any party to 8 the litigation, counsel to the parties or other entity. Such form shall be attached to the 9 deposition transcript," I make the following disclosure: 10 I am a Georgia Certified Court Reporter. I am here as a representative of Brown Reporting, Inc. 11 Brown Reporting was contacted by the offices of Bienenstock Court Reporting & Video 12 to provide court reporting services for the deposition. Brown Reporting will not be taking this 13 deposition under any contract that is prohibited by O.C.G.A. 15-14-37(a) and (b) . 14 Brown Reporting has no contract/agreement to provide reporting services with any party to the 15 case, any counsel in the case, or any reporter or reporting agency from whom a referral might have been 16 made to cover this deposition. Brown Reporting will charge its usual and customary rates to all parties 17 in the case, and a financial discount will not be given to any party to this litigation. 18 /s/ Frances Buono, CCR-B-791 11/11/05 19 Signature of attorneys present: Date: 20 Page 74 24 Return this form after review and/or signatures to the court reporter for inclusion in the record. 25 Please use reverse side for additional signatures. Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 75 1 DEPOSITION OF RICHARD A. LEMEN, Ph.D. /FCB 2 I do hereby certify that I have read all questions propounded to me and all answers given by 3 me on the 11th day of November, 2005, taken before Frances Buono, and that: 4A 1) There are no changes noted. 5 2) The following changes are noted: 6 Pursuant to Rule 30(e) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and/or the Official Code of Georgia 7 Annotated 9-11 -30(e) , both of which read in part: Any changes in form or substance which you desire to 8 make shall be entered upon the deposition.. .with a statement of the reasons given...for making them. 9 Accordingly, to assist you in effecting corrections, please use the form below: 10 11 Page No. Line No. should read: 12 Page No. Line No. should read: 13 14 Page No. Line No. should read: 15 Page No. Line No. should read: 16 17 Page No. Line No. should read: 18 Page No. Line No. should read: 19 20 Page No. Line No. should read: 21 Page No. Line No. should read: 22 23 Page No. Line No. should read: 24 Page No. Line No. should read: 25 Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979 Page 76 1 DEPOSITION OF RICHARD A. LEMEN Ph.D./FCB 2 Page No. Line No. should read: 3 Page No. Line No. should read: 4 5 Page No. Line No. should read: 6 Page No. Line No. should read: 7 8 Page No. Line No. should read: 9 Page No. Line No. should read: 10 11 Page No. Line No. should read: 12 Page No. Line No. should read: 13 14 If supplemental or additional pages are necessary, 15 please furnish same in typewriting annexed to this deposition. 16 17 RICHARD A. LEMEN, Ph.D. 18 Sworn to and subscribed before me, 19 This the day of , 20 20 Notary Public 21 My commission expires: 22 23 24 25 Brown Reporting Inc. 1-800-637-0293 404-876-8979