Document qmQ3aeXb25djNL6b11zJ9pQvk

1 1 IN THE COMMONWEALTH COURT OF PENNSYLVANIA 2 PENNSYLVANIA DEPARTMENT OF GENERAL: NO. 284 M.D. 1990 3 SERVICES, PENNSYLVANIA : 4 DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION, : 5 PENNSYLVANIA PUBLIC UTILITY : 6 COMMISSION, PENNSYLVANIA EMERGENCY: 7 MANAGEMENT AGENCY, PENNSYLVANIA : 8 DEPARTMENT OF STATE : 9 Plaintiffs : 10 Vs. : 11 UNITED STATES MINERAL PRODUCTS : 12 COMPANY, CERTAINTEED CORPORATION, : 13 COURTAULDS AEROSPACE, INC; : 14 CHEMREX, INC; PHILIPS ELECTRONICS : 15 NORTH AMERICA CORPORATION, : 16 ADVANCE TRANSFORMER COMPANY and : 17 MONSANTO : 18 Defendants : 19 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 20 1880 JFK BOULEVARD - 15TH FLOOR 21 PHILADELPHIA, PENNSYLVANIA 19103 22 215 - 988-9191 23 24 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021863 2 1 Oral Deposition of 2 Michael A. Pierle, taken pursuant to Notice, held at 3 the Ritz Carlton Hotel, 100 Carondelet Plaza, St. 4 Louis, Missouri, on Monday, June 8, 1998, at 5 10:00 a.m., before John W. Begley, a Registered 6 Professional Reporter - Notary Public there being 7 present. 8 9 APPEARANCES: HUMPHREY, FARRINGTON & MC CLAIN, P.C. 10 BY: JAMES M. ZIEGLER, ESQUIRE 11 221 West Lexington - Suite 400 12 Independence, Missouri 64051 13 Phone: 816 - 836-5050 14 Representing the Plaintiffs 15 16 WHITE & WILLIAMS, LLP 17 BY: THOMAS M. GOUTMAN, ESQUIRE 18 One Liberty Place - 18th Floor 19 1650 Market Street 20 Philadelphia, PA 19103 21 Phone: 215 - 864-7000 22 Representing the Defendant Monsanto 23 Corporation 24 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021864 3 1 2 SMITH HELMS MULLISS & MOORE, L.L.P. 3 BY: GERARD H. DAVIDSON, JR., ESQUIRE 4 300 North Greene Street - Suite 1400 5 Greensboro, North Carolina 27420 6 Phone: 910 - 378-5267 7 Representing the Defendant Monsanto 8 Corporation 9 10 CRIVELLO, CARLSON, 11 MENTKOWSKI & STEEVES, S.C. 12 BY: JOHN T. JUETTNER, ESQUIRE 13 The Empire Building 14 710 North Plankinton Avenue 15 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53203 16 Phone: 414 - 271-4438 17 Representing the Defendant ChemRex, 18 Inc . 19 20 21 22 23 24 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021865 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 4 ATTENDING VIA PHONE DANAHER, TEDFORD, LAGNESE & NEAL, PC BY: JAMES ROUX, ESQUIRE Capitol Place 21 Oak Street - Suite 700 Hartford, CT 06106 Phone: 860 - 247-3666 Representing the Defendant United States Mineral Products ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021866 5 1 2 INDEX 3 4 WITNESS PAGE 5 6 Michael A. Pierle 7 By Mr. Ziegler 8 8 By Mr. Juettner 78 9 10 EXHIBITS 11 12 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE 13 Pierle 1 Memorandum to Michael Pierle 36 14 from E.S. Tucker dated 12/11/69 15 Pierle 2 Memorandum to W. B. Papageorge 43 16 from W.A.Krull dated 8/3/70 17 Pierle 3 Memorandum to W.C. Engman from 52 18 Michael Pierle dated 8/5/70 19 Pierle 4 Letter from Harold G. Alford 56 20 to Manufacturers, Formulators, 21 Distributors, and Registrants 22 of Economic Poisons dated 10/29/70 23 24 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021867 1 Pierle 5 2 3 4 Pierle 6 5 6 7 Pierle 7 8 9 Pierle 8 10 11 Pierle 9 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Memorandum to W. B. Papageorge 58 from Michael A. Pierle dated 7/11/72 Document entitled, "Keeping 64 PCB's Out of the Environment" dated 10/72 Letter to Howard Zar from 68 Michael Pierle dated 9/2/76 Letter to Roy Harsch from 70 Michael E. Pierle dated 12/6/76 Letter to Michael Pierle from 72 Howard Zar dated 11/76 6 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021868 1 2 3 4 DEPOSITION SUPPORT INDEX 5 6 DIRECTION TO WITNESS NOT TO ANSWER 7 PAGE LINE PAGE LINE 8 9 10 REQUEST FOR PRODUCTION OF DOCUMENTS 11 PAGE LINE PAGE LINE 12 13 14 15 STIPULATIONS 16 PAGE LINE PAGE LINE 17 8 1-15 18 19 20 QUESTIONS MARKED 21 PAGE LINE PAGE LINE 22 23 24 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 7 WATER PCB-SD0000021869 8 1 THE COURT REPORTER: Usual 2 stipulations? 3 MR. ZIEGLER: That's fine. 4 MR. JUETTNER: That's fine. 5 MR. ROUX: That's fine. 6 MR. GOUTMAN: That's fine, but I 1 would like the witness to read and sign the 8 transcript. 9 10 (It is hereby stipulated by and among 11 counsel for the respective parties that the 12 sealing, filing and certification are waived, 13 and that all obj ections, except as to the form 14 of the questions, be reserved until the time of 15 trial.) 16 17 Michael A. Pierle, after having first 18 been duly sworn, was examined and testified as 19 follows: 20 21 EXAMINATION 22 23 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 24 Q. Please state your name and address for the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021870 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 9 1 record. 2 A. Michael A. Pierle, PIERLE. My business 3 address is Solutia, S O L U T I A, Inc., INC, 10300 4 Olive Boulevard, 63141, I believe. 5 Q. Is that St. Louis, a St. Louis address? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Have you ever had your deposition taken 8 before? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. How many times? 11 A. I believe about five. 12 Q. Can you tell me about when the last deposition 13 was? 14 A. 11 was about a week ago. 15 Q. The deposition that you had a week ago, was 16 that done in connection with a Monsanto case or a 17 case involving Monsanto? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. All of your prior depositions, were all of 20 those depositions taken in cases in which Monsanto 21 Corporation was a party? 22 MR. GOUTMAN: I think it is Monsanto 23 Company. 24 .. BY MR . ZIEGLER: ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021871 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 10 1 Q. Monsanto Company. With that correction - - 2 A. I believe that's correct, yes. 3 Q. By the way, my name is Jim Ziegler. I'm with 4 a law office in Independence, Missouri. We represent 5 the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, the plaintiff in 6 this action. 7 Do you recall the name of the attorney 8 that took your deposition last week? 9 A. I believe his last name was Barrett. 10 Q. Do you remember what the case name was? 11 A. No, I really don't. 12 Q. And you had counsel for Monsanto with you at 13 the deposition? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you remember their names? 16 A. Mike Kelly, Adam Best. 17 Q. How long have you been with Solutia, Inc.? 18 A. Since its start-up in September. 19 Q. September of what year? 20 A. 1997. 21 Q. What does Solutia do? 22 A. It is basically a manufacturer of chemicals 23 and fibers. 24 Q. What is your position with the company? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021872 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 11 1 A. Vice President, Environmental Safety and 2 Health. 3 Q. How would you describe your responsibilities 4 as a Vice President of Environmental Safety and 5 Health? 6 A. To provide technical and professional services 7 to the business, to allow them to meet both internal 8 and externa 1 requirements, and to provide policy . 9 direction in these related fields. 10 Q. What sort of chemicals are either used or 11 manufactured by Solutia, Inc., which would require 12 your expertise? 13 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ec tion to the form of 14 the question. 15 You may answer. 16 THE WITNESS: We manufacture a large 17 number of products that range from nylon and 18 acrylic fibers to a polyvinyl butyral product, 19 which is a safety inner liner on automobile 20 windscreens, and we make other chemicals that 21 go into paint, coatings, agricultural 22 chemicals. A variety of materials. 23 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 24 Q. Is Solutia a publicly held company? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021873 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 12 1 A. Yes 2 Q. Before you were with Solutia who did you work 3 for? 4 A. Monsanto. 5 Q. 6 A. And when did you first start with Monsanto? In February of 1966. 7 Q. Were you just getting out of school at that 8 point in time? 9 A. Yes, I had just graduated from Purdue 10 University. 11 Q. What was your degree in? 12 A. Civil engineering. Bachelor's degree. 13 Q. Why did you decide to come work for Monsanto 14 in 1966? 15 A. It was all around the best offer that I had. 16 Q. Are you from St. Louis originally? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Where are you from originally? 19 A. I was raised in Indianapolis. 20 Q. What department of Monsanto did you begin 21 with? 22 A. I began working with the technicalservice 23 department at the Wi11iam G. Krummrich facility in 24 , Sauget, Illinois. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021874 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 13 1 Q. Who was your immediate superior at that 2 facility? 3 A. At that time I believe when I started it was 4 Paul Hodges. 5 Q. Did Monsanto manufacture PCBs at the Krummrich 6 facility? 7 A. They did. 8 Q. ~ Can you tell me what types of PCBs were 9 manufactured there? 10 A. I don't recall the numbers and types. 11 Q. Can you tell me what your responsibilities 12 were when you first started with the technical 13 service department? 14 A. They were basically to do sampling for ambient 15 sulfur dioxide and then some waste water sampling 16 throughout the facility in conj unction with limits 17 that the facility had at that time for discharge into 18 the Mississippi River. 19 Q. For what compounds are you talking about in 20 terms of the waste water? 21 A. I believe the work we did there were two; one 22 was phenol and a chemical oxygen demand was the 23 second. COD. 24 Q. What processes at the Krummrich facility ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021875 MICHAEL A. PIERLE . 14 1 produced SO 2 ? 2 A. We were sampling the ambient atmosphere. The 3 processes there were probably the sulfuric acid plant 4 and the coal burning power house facility at the 5 t ime . 6 Q. Do you remember, in terms of company safety, 7 what the company, what the company's tolerances were 8 for'sulfur dioxide emissions in the ambient air? 9 MR. GOUTMAN: Are you talking about 10 within the plant or outside the plant? 11 MR. ZIEGLER: Within the plant. 12 MR. GOUTMAN: Within the work space. 13 MR. ZIEGLER: Yes. 14 THE WITNESS: I was not associated with 15 the work place monitoring at that time. It 16 would have been probably covered by OSHA or its 17 predecessor, so I don't know within the fence 18 1ine what the standards were. 19 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 20 Q. You were monitoring outside the facility; is 21 that correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you know what the odor threshold is for 24 sulfur dioxide? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021876 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 15 1 MR. GOUTMAN: When; now? 2 MR. ZIEGLER: No, just at any time. 3 MR. GOUTMAN: Now or at any time. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't recall . 5 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 6 Q. Three to five ppm. does that ring a bell to 7 you? 8 A. - I would j ust be guessing. I don't know what 9 the limit is now. 10 Q. Were there times when you could smell sulfur 11 dioxide outside the plant? 12 MR. GOUTMAN: Can you tell me what this 13 has to do with this litigation? This is not a 14 sulfur dioxide case. 15 MR. ZIEGLER: I understand that. 16 MR. GOUTMAN: Can you tell me what it 17 has to do with the litigation? 18 MR. ZIEGLER: It has to do with this 19 witness and what he was doing at the plant. 20 MR. GOUTMAN: I understand that. This 21 witness may have been doing all kinds of things 22 that have no relevance to this litigation, 23 including sulfur dioxide. 24 MR. ZIEGLER: And it is possible that ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021877 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 16 1 that's the case, but I have a right to inquire 2 into that to find out what the relevance might 3 be. 4 MR. GOUTMAN: I don't think you have a 5 right to pursue questions that you can't 6 articulate the relevance of. 7 MR. ZIEGLER: As I'm telling you, I'm 8 - asking him questions to discover what he did at 9 the plant, and this is a discovery deposition 10 and I have the right to do that. 11 MR. GOUTMAN: I disagree that you have 12 such a right. 13 What was the question? Note my 14 objection. 15 (The last question was read back by the 16 Court Reporter). 17 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 18 Q. Do you ever recall such a time? 19 A. There were periods or times when that was 20 possible . 21 Q. And do you recall conducting sampling at the 22 times during which odors could be detected outside 23 the plant? 24 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021878 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 17 1 Go ahead. 2 THE WITNESS: Our system, as I recall, 3 was a continuous monitoring system around the 4 plant, so it would have been sampling 24 hours 5 a day. 6 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 7 Q. During the times when odors could be detected 8 out-side the plant, do you ever recall samp 1 ing for 9 any levels that exceeded one ppm in the ambient air 10 of SO 2? 11 A. I don't recall what the levels were. I mean, 12 they were -- part of that sampling mechanism was that 13 there were also other sources that impacted the area, 14 but I don't recall the -- I don't recall the level. 15 Q. You are talking about sources from outside the 16 plant? 17 A. Yes, other sources. Other coal burning 18 utility boilers. Things of that nature. 19 Q. And I take it at some point in your employment 20 with Monsanto that your responsibilities changed. 21 You went on to doing something other than monitoring 22 SO 2 levels in the ambient air. 23 A. I had - - well, I think I mentioned the water 24 sampling and other, general environmental duties at ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021879 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 18 1 the plant site. 2 Q. And that was in addition to the monitoring for 3 the SO 2 and the monitoring at the waste water 4 facility? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you had responsibilities apart from those 7 items that I just listed; is that correct? 8 A. - Well, they were all in the same group. They 9 were just different types of work, yes. 10 Q. When you first started with Monsanto and 11 started working at the Krummrich plant, you were 12 aware that Monsanto manufactured PCBs at that site? 13 A. Probably not. 14 Q. Can you tell meabout when you firstbecame 15 aware of that? 16 A. Well, it would have been some time after I was 17 in employment, but I don't recall when that would 18 have been. That was a pretty large facility. 19 Q. Now, at some point you started, included in 20 your monitoring in the waste water effluent, you 21 started monitoring for PCBs. Do you recall that? 22 A. We did some work within thedepartment on 23 measuring and control. I do recall that. 24 ,Q. You said you did some work on measuring. Can ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021880 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 19 1 you tell me about that? 2 A. Well, I don't recall too much. I know we were 3 doing work on some of the water, the pretty low 4 volume water streams where we were trying to trap and 5 remove PCBs . They were basically heavier than water. 6 We were removing those, and I seem to recall some 7 sampling of some of the process off gas streams. I 8 don* t remember much of that. 9 Q. I'm just trying to get a handle on what you 10 were doing in terms of measuring. Were you part of 11 the development of methods to measure the PCB 1eveIs 12 in the effluent? 13 A. No. I mean, I recall sort of hazily some of 14 that going on, but I don't believe we were doing any 15 of that at the plant site. 16 Q. Do you know who was working on those methods 17 to measure PCB levels in water? 18 A. I don't recall their names We had a, you 19 know, a pretty big research capability sort of in St. 20 Louis, but I don't recall who the individuals were. 21 Q. And the work that you are describing now, did 22 that occur before 1970? 23 A. It would have. I left the plant somewhere 24 - around August of 1970, so it would have been before ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021881 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 20 1 that time frame. At least when I was involved. 2 Q. About a year or two years before? Can you 3 give me some idea? 4 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection. 5 You may answer. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm guessing it was 7 in the 1969 time frame, but I don't recall 8 - specifically. 9 MR. GOUTMAN: Mr. Pierle, I would ask 10 you not to guess. If you don't know the answer 11 to the question just say so. 12 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 13 Q. And so the work that you were doing, were you 14 developing methods to extract PCBs out of the waste 15 water? Am I correct in understanding your testimony? 16 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection. Misstates 17 prior testimony. 18 You may answer. 19 THE WITNESS: What we were doing, as I 20 remember, was physically, more physically 21 separating PCBs from the water streams out of 22 the department; not running an extraction 23 process. 24 BY MR. ZIEGLER: ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021882 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 21 1 Q. Wasn't the separation process part of an 2 extraction process? 3 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection. You are 4 arguing with the witness. 5 You may answer. 6 THE WITNESS: We may j ust be talking 7 about extraction. I tend to think what we were 8 ~ doing is helping the physical separation of the 9 materials, so that's the best I can describe 10 it. 11 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 12 Q. Did you have an awareness of the purpose for 13 which you were working on this separation process? 14 A. What I recall is there was an effort to try 15 and reduce losses from the production department, and 16 I recall some general questions about PCBs in the 17 environment during that time frame, but what I 18 remember mainly was just working with a few other 19 people at the department level on efforts to reduce 20 PCB waste or PCB losses from the unit. 21 Q. Do you remember who those people were? 22 MR. GOUTMAN: That he worked with? 23 MR. ZIEGLER: At the department level. 24 MR. GOUTMAN: He worked with in this ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021883 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 22 1 effort to reduce the losses? 2 MR. ZIEGLER: Yes. 3 THE WITNESS: I really don't. I mean, I 4 know there was a guy in engineering that was 5 doing some proj ec t work, but I do not remember 6 his name. I don't recal1 the people in the 7 department that we were working with either. 8 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 9 Q. When you were doing this work what was your 10 title with Monsanto, your job title? 11 A. Whatever the title for sort of beginning 12 engineer was at the plant site. I think it was 13 Engineer 1. 14 Q. How long did you remain an Engineer 1 with 15 Monsanto? If you recall. 16 A. I believe that title did not change until I 17 left the plant site. 18 Q. Okay. When did you leave the plant site? 19 A. 11 was around August of 197 0. 20 Q. And where did you go from there? 21 A. I went to a production facility in Bridgeport, 22 New Jersey. 23 Q. What did Monsanto make at this facility 24 genera1ly? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021884 MICHAEL A. PIERLE - 23 1 MR . GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of 2 the question. 3 You may answer. 4 THE WITNESS: We made phthalic anhydride and^Vhalate esters. 5 6 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 7 Q. Do you know what kind of products those were 8 used in? 9 A. Well, the phthalic anhydride, as I 10 recall, pretty much used as an intermediate on site, 11 and the thalate esters, my recollection is that they 12 were primarily in the flooring materials or other 13 plastics. 14 Q. What was your job title at Bridgeport when you 15 first started in August of 1970? 16 A. I don't recall whether it was Engineer 1 or II 17 or Senior Engineer, but I remember that it was - - I 18 think I got the senior engineer some time shortly 19 after I moved there. 20 Q. Were there any RGBs used or manufactured at 21 the Bridgeport facility? 22 A. There were none manufactured. There had been 23 heat transfer units at the site and they may have 24 still been in operation in 197 0 . I'm not certain. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021885 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 24 1 Q. How would PCBs or how were PCBs used in the 2 heat transfer units that you are talking about? 3 A. I'm not an expert on that. They were the heat 4 transfer fluid. I believe it was heated and then 5 circulated into various parts of the process and then 6 returned back to the heater, principally in kind of a 7 closed loop type of system. 8 Q. _ Do you remember any measures that were 9 employed by Monsanto at the Bridgeport facility to 10 control the release of PCBs into the environment? 11 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. No 12 foundation. 13 You may answer if you can. 14 THE WITNESS: What I recall were drip 15 pans that were sort of preventive collection 16 devices that were around, say, pump 17 connections. 18 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 19 Q. Anything else at that facility? 20 A. Not that I recal1. 21 Q. How long did you work at the Bridgeport 22 facility? 23 A. Until July 1974. 24 Q. And where did you go from Bridgeport? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021886 MICHAEL A. PIERLE . 25 1 A. I actually left Monsanto for one year and went 2 to work at the Department of Commerce in Washington, 3 DC . 4 Q. What did you do with the Department of 5 Commerce? 6 A. I worked in a group that was called, I 7 believe, the Office of Environmental Affairs, and 8 we - - it was a small group of about ten people. We 9 basically participated in the, what was then called, 10 I think, the government's Quality of Life Review on 11 new regulations, new federal regulations. 12 Q. Tell me about that job. What did you do while 13 you were with the Department of Commerce? 14 A. It was primarily technical review of proposed 15 regulations that agencies were developing, and it was 16 to comment both on the technical side of that, sort 17 of the do ability, what was generally known about 18 certain technologies, and from time to time - - well, 19 collectively then in that process with other parts of 20 the Commerce Department to represent the entire 21 department's viewpoint on a set of regulations. 22 Q. Did PCBs come up during your employment with 23 the Department of Commerce? 24 A. No, I had a very specific exclusion ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021887 MICHAEL A. PIERLE . 26 1 requirement, as I remember, on the types of things 2 that I would work on that would not involve any 3 Monsanto matters or any chemical industry matters. 4 Q. And why was that? 5 A. My view, it was simply a precaution. This 6 position I had was filled about every year by another 7 individual from business or industry. It was a 8 general practice. And I guess I just assumed that 9 was part of the practice of that contractual 10 arrangement. 11 Q. So you had, after your employment with the 12 Department of Commerce, you intended to come back and 13 work for Monsanto; is that correct? 14 A. That was my desire, but I did not leave with 15 any contractual obligation on my part or their part 16 that I would come back to work. 17 Q. Did you receive any compensation from Monsanto 18 while you were employed with the Department of 19 Commerce? 20 A. There was, as I recall, I was on a dollar a 21 year contract, and the purpose of that was basically 22 to retain my benefits programs, so there was no 23 compensation or salary but there was retention of 24 benefits, and I believe I also received a, what was a ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021888 MICHAEL A. PIERLE - 27 1 differential, almost sort of like housing adjustment, 2 because it was a pretty significant cost of housing 3 difference between New Jersey and Washington, DC. 4 Q. DC was higher than New Jersey? 5 A. Yes. You bet. 6 Q. And what part of New Jersey were you in again? 7 A. Southern New Jersey. 8 Q. _ You stayed away, when you were at the 9 Department of Commerce, you stayed away from issues 10 dealing with the chemical indus try; is that correct? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. And then you went back to work for Monsanto 13 the next year; is that right? 14 A. Yes. I believe I started work again, it was 15 like August of 1975, in St. Louis. 16 Q. And what offices did you come back to in St. 17 Louis? 18 A. It was in an environmental group that I don't 19 recall the specific unit organizational strueture, 20 but it was primarily associated with the organic 21 chemical businesses. 22 Q. Part of your new job assignment, was part of 23 that interfacing with departments from the United 24 States government concerning environmental matters? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021889 MICHAEL A. PIERLE . 28 1 A. There was - - some of that was sort of 2 indirect, but that wasn't the prime focus, the prime 3 focus of it. To the extent that we interfaced with, 4 at that time it would have been EPA, it would have 5 been on, again, just - - it was some general 6 regulatory development, and other than that it would 7 have been in the context of specific items at some of 8 our.manufacturing facilities. 9 Q. Do you recall ever having any communications 10 with the EPA in the mid '7 0's regarding PCBs? 11 A. To the extent that I recall, they would have 12 been some - - I believe they were permit discussions 13 associated again with the Krummrich facility, but 14 this time, as I recall, primarily around the 15 discharge permit level limits with the federal EPA 16 from the village waste water treatment system. 17 Q. Is that the facility's NPDES permit? 18 A. The facility discharged to a municipal system, 19 so it did not have an NPDES permit. 20 Q. I see. Can you tell me how long you were with 21 this environmental group. 22 A. Well, I have been basically with the 23 environment my entire career, so that group - - the group 24 tended to change as the internal organizational ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021890 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 29 1 structure changed, so I don't know how to 2 specifically try to answer your question. 3 Q. I unders tand. From August of 197 5 up until 4 what; until August or September of last year was your 5 work in Monsanto focused on environmental matters? 6 A. Yes, I spent my entire career in environmental 7 and then health and safety matters, you know, up to 8 the" present. 9 Q. And you were talking - - strike that. 10 Part of your responsibilities, when you 11 went back to work for Monsanto in 1975, had to do 12 with the effluent - - was it the waste water effluent 13 from the Krummrich facility; is that correct? 14 A. That was, you know, one of the issues I was 15 aware of and consulted on. 16 Q. And one of the things that you were trying to 17 do is reduce the PCBs in the waste water emissions; 18 is that correct? 19 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of 20 the question. 21 You may answer. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't recall 23 specifically. Most of those discussions were 24 about, as I recall, and I mean they weren't a ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021891 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 30 1 large part of what I was dealing with; we were 2 just dealing with the Sauget Village municipal 3 plant's discharge permit and at that time 4 Monsanto's interaction with the regulators and 5 with the village on that 6 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 7 Q. Did RGBs come up in the context of the 8 village's discharges? 9 MR. GOUTMAN: Can we get a time frame? 10 MR. ZIEGLER: In or about August of 11 1975 . 12 THE WITNESS: I don't recall the 13 specific dates; I just recall that there were 14 discussions, conversations, around PCB limits 15 with respect to permits and sort of part of the 16 confusion there, the state was involved, the 17 federal folks were involved, but there was some 18 discussion about PCB limits and permits, and I 19 don't really recall the details. 20 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 21 Q. Was that the first instance since you returned 22 to Monsanto in August of 197 5 in which you recall 23 PCBs - - strike that. 24 Was that the first instance that you ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021892 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 31 1 can recall that you had to deal with PCBs since your 2 return to Monsanto in August of 19 7 5? 3 A. Well, I don't know when it first, again, sort 4 of came up; I just recall that one of the issues, as 5 I was getting sort of reassociated with a set of 6 plants that I had some responsibility over, that was 7 one of the issues, and it was somewhere back in the 8 late, mid to late '7 0's, so I really don't recall 9 anything much more than that. 10 Q. In terms of your responsibilities after your 11 return, were you concerned primarily with regulatory 12 compliance for the Monsanto facilities? 13 A. That was one of the areas, and it was for some 14 of the facilities and it was primarily in the 15 environmental side, so I would say that basically it 16 was air, water, and solid waste areas. 17 Q. Can you tell me on what other occasions you 18 recall dealing with PCBs after your return to 19 Monsanto in August of 1975? 20 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection. Vague. What 21 do you mean by "dealing with PCBs"? 22 MR. ZIEGLER: Just any times when PCBs 23 came up in the course of your employment. 24 MR. GOUTMAN: Note my obj ection to form. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021893 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 32 1 You may answer. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't recall much. I 3 mean, there was one additional, sort of 4 operational thing we were dealing with 5 somewhere in that time frame, and that was the 6 shut down of the incinerator that had been 7 constructed at that plant site. 8 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 9 Q. The purpose of the incinerator was to dispose 10 of PCBs? 11 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection. Overly broad. 12 You may answer. 13 THE WITNESS: As I recall, it was for 14 the return, sort of receipt and disposal of 15 liquid PCBs. 16 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 17 Q. And this was in about what year? Was it 1975? 18 1976? 19 A. Some time in the mid to late '70's. 20 MR. GOUTMAN: Are you talking about the 21 shutdown of the incinerator? Is that what you 22 are talking about? 23 MR. ZIEGLER: Yes. Specifically. 24 THE WITNESS: I don't recall the date ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021894 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 33 1 that it was specifically shut down. 2 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 3 Q. Do you remember what the sources of the PCBs 4 were at that late date? 5 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ec tion to the form of 6 the question. 7 You may answer. 8~ THE WITNESS: Well, again, I don't 9 recall the dates, so I don't know whether it 10 was a late date or not or what your reference 11 point is. My understanding was that those were 12 primarily customer returns. 13 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 14 Q. Do you recall what types of PCBs were being 15 returned? 16 A. I don't other than they were, as I recall, 17 primarily liquid materials, if not exclusively liquid 18 materials, but the form or the source, I wasn't 19 paying any particular attention to that. 20 Q. Were they PCBs - - do you recall who some of 21 the customers were that were returning PCBs? 22 A. No, I don't. 23 Q. And you don't recall what the uses of the PCBs 24 for those customers were? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021895 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 34 1 A. No, I don't. 2 Q. Are there any other times after August of 1975 3 when you can recall that you had to deal with PCBs in 4 your employment at Monsanto? 5 MR. GOUTMAN: Note my obj ection to the 6 vague form of the question. 7 You may answer. 8~ THE WITNESS: The issue that I described 9 with respect to the discharge permit, I don't 10 know when that ended or stopped or whatever, 11 but that went on for, it seems to me, a period 12 of time. I don't recall whether there was 13 anything else specifically over there or not. 14 The incinerator, I know, was shut down. That 15 seemed to constitute most of what we were 16 dealing with at this site. 17 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 18 Q. With respect to the shut down of the 19 incinerator, what regulatory authority was overseeing 20 that? 21 A. You know, I don't really recall who was at the 22 plant site. Typically on those things the folks at 23 the plant site would hold the permits, know the 24 details, and I don't recall us having any particular ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021896 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 35 1 issues around that operation. 2 Q. Do you recall whether there was any soil 3 testing done at the incineration site? Specifically 4 for PCBs. 5 A. I don't recall whether we did or not. I mean, 6 I recall that was all pretty well constructed on 7 concrete . I remember being there seeing material, 8 drums, within concrete areas, but I don't recall 9 whether there was any sampling associated with that 10 or not. 11 Q. Was the incinerator dismantled? Do you 12 recall? 13 A. Yes. Well, it was because I know it's not 14 there, but I don't - - 15 Q. Do you remember where they took it? 16 A. I do not. 17 Q. About what year did this occur in? Can you 18 tell me? 19 MR. GOUTMAN: Can you read the question 20 back. 21 (The last question was read back by the 22 Court Reporter) 23 MR. GOUTMAN: I think the witness has 24 already said he doesn't recall the date the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021897 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 36 1 incinerator was shut down. 2 THE WITNESS: I really don't, you know, 3 remember when it was. I mean, it was after 4 1975, but I don't know exactly when that was 5 accomplished or when it was complete. 6 BY MR,. ZIEGLER: 7 Q. Do you know if it was before or after 1980? 8 A. ~ I really don't know the precise date. 9 Q. It wasn't in the 1990's, was it? 10 A. I'm sure it was done by then. 11 Q. Do you remember if you were dealing with a 12 state or federal regulatory authority in that 13 connection? 14 A. I don't recall. 15 MR. ZIEGLER: This will be marked as 16 Pierle 1. (Indicating). 17 (Whereupon the above-referred to 18 document was marked as Pierle Exhibit 1 for 19 identification) 20 BY MR., ZIEGLER: 21 Q. 22 Subj ect change. MR. GOUTMAN: Take your time and read 23 that. 24 MR. ZIEGLER: Read it. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021898 MICHAEL A. PIERLE ' 37 1 MR. GOUTMAN: And let us know when you 2 are done. 3 THE WITNESS: I have read it. 4 MR. GOUTMAN: This is Pierle 1. 5 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 6 Q. With respect to Exhibit Pierle 1, apparently 7 you had instructed Dr. E.S. Tucker to perform some 8 sort of analysis on W.G.K. sediment samples; is that 9 correct? 10 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ec tion to the form of 11 the question. 12 You may answer. 13 THE WITNESS: It looks like that per 14 this note. 15 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 16 Q. And we are talking about the Krummrich plant. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you were asking him toanalyze the 19 sediment samples for PCBs; is that correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Can you tell me why Monsanto wasinterested in 22 the contaminant levels of sediment samples taken from 23 the Mississippi River? 24 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ec tion to the form of ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021899 MICHAEL A. PIERLE ' 38 1 the question. Do you want to know why this 2 witness was interested or every employee of 3' Monsanto? 4 MR. ZIEGLER: Yes. 5 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 6 Q. Why were you interested? 7 A. Well, this was the time frame that we were 8 doing the sampling in the department that we had 9 referred to as part of that team activity, and I'm 10 trying to recall the purpose for the river sediment. 11 I'm really not clear on it. I mean, obviously we did 12 it. I don't know what the purpose of it was, or if 13 it did or did not fit into an overall program. 14 Q. Do you recall that one of your superiors 15 instructed you to have those samp1es taken and 16 analyzed? 17 A. I just flat don't recall. 18 Q. Can you tell me whether the sampling 19 activities were taken with respect to a study 20 regarding Aroclors and wildlife? 21 MR. GOUTMAN: Whether this document was 22 part of a study of Aroclors and wildlife? 23 MR. ZIEGLER: Yes. 24 THE WITNESS: That is the title of the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021900 MICHAEL A. PIERLE ' 39 1 subject. I mean, I don't recall any wildlife 2 related activity at the Krummrich plant. In 3 general, there was a question about Aroclors 4 and wildlife that, as I had previously 5 mentioned, I was aware of at that time, which 6 had been - - part of the reason why we were 7 proceeding on the determination of PCB 8 materials in the plant discharge. 9 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 10 Q. So as I understand your testimony, Monsanto 11 was concerned about PCB contamination of the 12 Mississippi River from the W.G. Krummrich plant; is 13 that correct? 14 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of 15 the question. 16 THE WITNESS: I think what this 17 indicates is that we were looking for whether 18 or not there was presence in some of the 19 sediments, it looks 1ike both upstream and 20 downstream of the point where the waste water 21 from the village would have entered the 22 Mississippi River. 23 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 24 Q. And do you recall - - where did you direct this ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021901 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 40 1 information after you obtained it from Dr. Tucker? 2 A. I don't recall. I know, as I said, we were 3 working within a group of people there at the plant 4 site and I'm sure it would have gone back into that 5 group of individuals. 6 Q. You were trying to - - you brought up an 7 interesting point. Part of the purpose of this 8 sampling was to compare the Aroclor levels upstream 9 and downstream from - - was it f rom the plant that you 10 were trying to compare those? 11 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ec tion to the form of 12 the question. He said the samples were taken 13 both upstream and downs tream. 14 THE WITNESS: Of the - - 15 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 16 Q. Do you understand my question? 17 A. Not really. 18 Q. The samples were taken upstream and downstream 19 from the plant; is that correct? 20 A. I think what I said was they were upstream and 21 downs tream of the point where the effluent f rom the 22 Village of Sauget entered the Mississippi River, 23 which would have included the plant's effluent. 24 Q. Your purpose for taking samples upstream and ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021902 MICHAEL A. PIERLE ' 41 1 downstream from that point was to compare the PCB 2 levels; is that correct? 3 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of 4 the question. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't recall the 6 specific purpose. Certainly it was to, at that 7 point in time, just get some data, background 8 data. 9 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 10 Q. You wanted to find out what the contribution 11 to the PCB levels in the Mississippi River from the 12 village effluent were; is that correct? 13 MR . GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the f orm of 14 the question. 15 You may answer. 16 THE WITNESS: I believe we were just 17 trying to see if there was any difference or 18 not. 19 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 20 Q. Do you remember if your group came up with any 21 conclusions with respect to why the PCB levels were, 22 in some instances, in order of magnitude higher 23 downstream than they were upstream? 24 A. I don't recall, you know, how much of this we ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021903 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 42 1 did or whether we got the conclusions or not or over 2 what time frame. 3 Q. Who did you relay this information on to? 4 A. I think I said I specifically don't recall who 5 else at the plant site I would have passed this on 6 to. My presumption - - 7 MR. GOUTMAN: Don't presume. Don't 8 ~ speculate. 9 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 10 Q. What department would you have sent these on 11 to? 12 MR. GOUTMAN: He said he didn't know. 13 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 14 Q. This is a different question. 15 I had asked you who you sent them to. 16 Now my question is what department did you send these 17 on to . 18 A. I don't know that I sent them to any 19 department. I think I indicated that they would have 20 gone into the team or group of people that were 21 working on this. I don't recall anything beyond 22 that. 23 Q. And you don't recall what the team's purpose 24 was for taking these samples. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021904 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 43 1 MR. GOUTMAN: Listen, he said that about 2 five times. That's enough. 3 MR. ZIEGLER: Let's go on to the next 4 document. This will be marked as Pierle 2. 5 (Indicating). 6 (Whereupon the above - referred to 7 document was marked as Pierle Exhibit 2 for 8 ~ identification). 9 THE WITNESS: I have read the document. 10 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 11 Q. Can you tell me when Mr. Papageorge first 12 began discussing with you the topic of PCBs and air 13 pollution? 14 A. I don't recall specifically. 15 Q. Can you tell me why, in preparing this 16 document - - s trike that. 17 Can you tell me what your purpose, what 18 your specific purpose was in preparing Exhibit Number 19 2? 20 A. I believe we were trying to understand across 21 the plant site whether there were losses, and in this 22 particular note losses to the atmosphere. 23 Q. You are talking about losses ofPCBs. 24 A. Yes . ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021905 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 44 1 Q. Tell me why you characterize PCB losses as 2 Aroclor air pollution, if you can. 3 A. I - - are you referring to the subject heading 4 that is circled? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. I don't recall why we used that title. We 7 were looking at Aroclor or PCB and we were looking 8 for' potential losses to the air which one would 9 generally define as air pollution. 10 Q. Is this a specific assignment that Mr. 11 Papageorge gave to you? 12 A. I don't recallthat. 13 Q. Do you recall who gave this assignment to you? 14 A. I do not. 15 Q. Did you physically go around the plant to 16 a11empt to identify all points of potential Aroclor 17 air emissions? 18 A. I don't recall walking around the plant site 19 following piping and looking at other systems. 20 Q. Did you conduct sampling during this walk 21 through inspection? 22 A. I don't believe so. 23 Q. Looking at the second page, how are you able 24 to identify the points of Aroclor vapor losses ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021906 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 45 1 without conducting any sort of air sampling? 2 A. Those would have been done from observations 3 of equipment and/or drawing, and to look at where 4 things might be possible. 5 Q. Did you have somebody with you that provided 6 you information during your walk through of the plant 7 to help come up with this list? 8~ And I'm talking about the list on the 9 second page of the exhibit. 10 A. I don't recall if I did this walk around in 11 conjunction with anyone else or not. 12 Q. Who from - - 13 A. I don't believe any of these estimates were 14 based on sort of a walk around information. 15 Q. How would you have calculated them? 16 A. They are described as estimated losses and I 17 believe those probably came from just calculations, 18 more engineering calculations. 19 Q. Can you tell me what the, for example, under 20 source number one you have 0.1, and then you have a 21 number sign and then / day. Can you tell me what 22 that means, what amount that you have calculated 23 there as an estimate? 24 A. I think we were using that as a pound sign, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021907 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 46 1 0.1 pounds per day. 2 Q. Can you tell me how that calculation would 3 have occurred? 4 MR. GOUTMAN: Can you tell me what this 5 has to do with this case, the amount of PCB 6 loss in the Krummrich plant in 1970? 7 MR. ZIEGLER: Yes. 8~ MR. GOUTMAN: What is the relevance to 9 this case? 10 MR. ZIEGLER: The relevance is how 11 Monsanto deals with PCBs in its own facilities, 12 which is highly relevant to the issues in this 13 case, so if you want to take it up with the 14 Court I'm happy to talk to the Court about it. 15 MR. GOUTMAN: No, I just wanted to know 16 where you thought you were going with this. 17 Thank you. 18 THE WITNESS: What was the question 19 again? 20 MR. GOUTMAN: How were the calculations 21 made . 22 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. I don't recall on these specifically. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021908 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 47 1 Q. You don't recall who provided you the 2 information that allowed you to make those 3 calculations; correct? 4 A. I do not. I'm not sure I made the 5 calculations. Your ques tion sort of implies that. 6 Q. Do you recall, if you could turn over to the 7 next page, you identified some potential sources of 8 Aroclor emissions. Can you tell me how you 9 dis tinguished the known point sources of emissions 10 from potential sources of Aroclor emissions? 11 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ec tion to the form of 12 the question. 13 THE WITNESS: I guess I'm not following 14 the nuance of your question, between known and 15 potential. This describes the potential 16 sources. 17 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 18 Q. Which page? 19 A. The third page. 20 Q. Yes. I'm distinguishing that from the second 21 page, which I understand that to be known sources of 22 Aroclor losses. 23 MR. GOUTMAN: That's your 24 interpretation. You certainly haven't laid a ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021909 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 48 1 foundation. 2 THE WITNESS: The way I would read this 3 is that, again, page two is estimates based on 4 engineering, based on information around the 5 department, and the following is more referring 6 back to the walk around that said, you know, if 7 we are wanting to be sure we have thought about 8 this, where else are other potential sources, 9 and that just lists observations from a 10 potential walk around, from a walk around. 11 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 12 Q. This inspection was done because you were 13 attempting to lay out a PCB reduction program for 14 this plant; is that correct? 15 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of 16 the question. 17 THE WITNESS: I recall the overall focus 18 of the work of the team was on Aroclor 19 reductions, and I think what this document lays 20 out is the activities or the - - information 21 probably relatively early on or air pollution, 22 what we think we might estimate or know about 23 what is going on in the department, and then 24 the third page is are there other potential ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021910 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 49 1 sources from other departments, and if so some 2 observations about that. 3 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 4 Q. Had Mr. Papageorge determined that air losses 5 of PCBs were too high at this plant? 6 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection. Do you want 7 him to read Mr. Papageorge's mind? Obj ection 8 ~ to the form of the question. Is that what you 9 want him to do; read his mind? 10 MR. ZIEGLER: No. 11 MR. GOUTMAN: How would he know what is 12 in Mr. Papageorge's mind? 13 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 14 Q. You can just answer the question, please. 15 A. I recall the effort was around the 16 identification, quantification, and the control of 17 PCB or Aroclor at the plant site. 18 Q. Did he ever express to you that the PCB 19 levels, the PCB emissions from the plant were too 20 high? 21 A. I don't recall that terminology being used. 22 Q. Did he ever express to you that there were 23 obvious problem areas of the plant that needed 24 immediate attention? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021911 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 50 1 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of 2 the question. 3 You may answer. If you can. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't recall any 5 characterization of it other than the 6 identification and looking for ways to reduce 7 losses, but I don't recall any characterization 8 of that. 9 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 10 Q. So I take it that that characterization is 11 contained in the last sentence of the first page of 12 the exhibit is your characterization; is that 13 correct? 14 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ec tion to the form of 15 the question. 16 You may answer. 17 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't know whether 18 this is mine or Mr. Krull's or both of ours, 19 but I think as we were looking for potential 20 areas, the sort of problem areas or where there 21 might be potential is what is described in that 22 last sentence. 23 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 24 Q. What types of PCB emissions were you looking ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021912 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 51 1 at that you thought needed immediate attention or 2 what levels? How high were the PCB emissions from 3 the furnaces in departments 239, 245, 248, and 255 4 that you thought they needed immediate attention? 5 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of 6 the question. 7 You may answer. 8 THE WITNESS: The way I read this and 9 what I recall is this is more a theoretical 10 kind of discussion. Are there any? Where 11 might they be? Let's go out and sort of do the 12 inventory, so the natural place one would have 13 looked at the outset were, and I think it 14 refers to these furnaces or heat transfer 15 systems that were in place in these 16 departments. 17 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 18 Q. What kind of attention did you give to the 19 heat transfer systems? 20 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ec tion to the f orm of 21 the question. 22 You may answer. 23 THE WITNESS: I mean, I don't know other 24 than what's described here. I think I have ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021913 MICHAEL A. PIERLE ' 52 1 indicated to you that this was about the time 2 that I was leaving the plant site, almost 3 within the week of leaving the plant site. I 4 do recall doing the walk through and not much 5 more than that. 6 MR. ZIEGLER: This will be Exhibit 3. 7 (Indicating). 8 (Whereupon the above - referred to 9 document was marked as Pierle Exhibit 3 for 10 identification) 11 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 12 Q. I have handed to you Exhibit Number 3. If you 13 could take a look at it, please, and then identify it 14 for me. 15 A. I have read it. 16 MR. GOUTMAN: He wants you to identify 17 i t. 18 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 19 Q. Yes. And this is a document that you wrote. 20 A. It is entitled. 11 Sampling Program for Aroclor 21 Losses " dated April 5, 197 0 from my self to a 22 Mr. Engman. 23 Q. 24 ' A. Who is Mr. Engman? Mr. Engman is, as I recall, was an individual ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021914 MICHAEL A. PIERLE ' 53 1 that - - I forget exactly what department he was in 2 that may have been given sort of this team 3 assignment. I don't recall. I know him well. I do 4 not know him in the context of this particular memo, 5 other than I remember him being involved. 6 Q. He was part of the same team you were; is that 7 right? 8 A. I believe so. 9 Q. How long did Mr. Engman work for Monsanto at 10 Krummrich? 11 A. I don't know specifically. Quite a while. 12 Q. Did he work there as of the time that you - - 13 strike that. 14 Tell me, this is part of the same 15 program of sampling for Aroclor losses that we saw in 16 Exhibit Number 2; is that correct? 17 A. It appears to be. 18 Q. Can you tell me who developed this sampling 19 program? Did you? 20 A. Well, obviously I wrote it down, and I 21 remember being a party to it. I don't know that I 22 was the only one involved in the development of the 23 program. 24 Q. One of your interests was PCB levels in fish; ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021915 MICHAEL A. PIERLE ' 54 1 is that correct? 2 A. It looks like it from this note. 3 Q. Can you tell me how that sampling would have 4 been done. 5 A. I don't recall doing any fishing. I don't 6 recall. 7 Q. If you could look at the second page for me, 8 you make a statement, and I'm just not sure what that 9 statement means. You state, "If a balance is not 10 obtained between 246 and the treatment plant within 11 two weeks of daily sampling, the program will be 12 expanded to determine other sources. 11 13 Could you tell me what that statement 14 means ? 15 A. I believe what we were attempting to do, by 16 sampling at the production department, to see if we 17 could reproduce the levels, that level of discharge 18 by measuring it again at the treatment plant and to 19 see if basically they were the same number or in 20 balance. What this describes, if they were not, and 21 that would have presumed, then, that they would have 22 been higher at the treatment plant, that we would 23 have looked for other potential sources. 24 Q. Was one of your purposes for taking samp1es ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021916 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 55 1 from the waste water, the river sediment, and the 2 fish, to determine how much of the PCBs that were 3 contained with the effluent that went into the river 4 actually made it into the food chain? 5 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of 6 the question. 7 You may answer. 8~ THE WITNESS: I think the design of this 9 was simply to find out if we were losing it 10 from the plant site, at what level and then 11 where was it if it left the waste treatment 12 plant or actually before were there levels in 13 the river, and I think the additional 14 discussion was, Well, what about fish? Because 15 fish had been raised as an issue in the general 16 literature, so I think this was around, just in 17 general environmental sampling, in the sediment 18 and fish, and in the waste water it was more 19 particular to attempts to do quantification. 20 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 21 Q. Do you recall whether there were any 22 discussions within your environmental group regarding 23 human exposures from eating fish in the Mississippi 24 River? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021917 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 56 1 A. I don't recall any. 2 MR. ZIEGLER: This will be Exhibit 4. 3 (Indicating). 4 (Whereupon the above-referred to 5 document was marked as Pierle Exhibit 4 for 6 identification) 7 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 8 Q. ~ I'm handing you what has been marked as 9 Exhibit Number 4. Could you read it, please, and 10 tell me if you have ever seen this document. 11 A. What part do you want me to read? The 12 heading - - 13 Q. Actually, if I have any questions for you at 14 all, they will be from the first three paragraphs. 15 A. You didn't mean read it out loud; you just 16 meant to read the document. 17 Q. Yes, read it to yourself. 18 MR. GOUTMAN: Read the entire document. 19 THE WITNESS: I have read the document. 20 I don't recall ever seeing this before. 21 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 22 Q. Do you recall whether, in your group, whether 23 there was any discussion regarding the chronic 24 toxicity of PCBs to fish? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021918 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 57 1 A. No, I think what I indicated I recall was the 2 general literature and discussion about wildlife and 3 the eggs and the reproduction issue, but I don't 4 recall any specific conversations that were anymore 5 particular than that. 6 Q. The issue regarding the eggs and reproduction, 7 this was something that you knew about in August of 8 1970; is that correct? 9 A. Yes, I believe there was a fair amount of 10 general information available at that point in time. 11 Q. Do you know if there was any discussion within 12 Monsanto or did you participate in any discussions 13 within Monsanto regarding the withdrawal of PCBs from 14 the market? 15 A. No, I really wasn't involved in anything 16 beyond the plant work that we have described. 17 Q. Do you recall any discussion to the effect 18 that PCBs contributed to environmental pollution? 19 MR. GOUTMAN: At what time are we 20 talking about? 21 MR. ZIEGLER: Up until August of 1970. 22 THE WITNESS: Again, in the context of 23 what I have described here about the general 24 ' discussion about soft egg shells and what is ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021919 MICHAEL A. PIERLE ' 58 1 causing that. That was what, to me, that was 2 the discussion around PCBs or DDT or other 3 things were about at the time. 4 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 5 Q. Do you recall any discussion within Monsanto 6 in which you participated in which the view was 7 expressed that any benefits derived from PCB use are 8 out'weighed by the resulting environmental 9 contamination? 10 A. No, I don't. 11 Q. Do you know whether that was the basis for 12 Monsanto's decision to withdrawal from the PCB 13 market? 14 A. I don't know. I wasn't involved in that 15 decision. 16 MR. ZIEGLER: This will be Exhibit 5. 17 (Indicating). 18 (Whereupon the above-referred to 19 document was marked as Pierle Exhibit 5 for 20 identification). - 21 THE WITNESS: I have read the document. 22 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 23 Q. We are up to Exhibit 5 now. Could you 24 -'identify Exhibit 5. You are the author; correct? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021920 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 59 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And the subj ect of this particular document is 3 what? 4 A. "PCB System ChangeOvers. 5 Q. And you were writing to Mr. Papageorge; is 6 that correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. ~ Tell me what your involvement was in the PCB 9 system changeovers, if you could, please, at or about 10 July of 1972. 11 A. I believe it was more one of observation and 12 seeing that the changeovers were accomplished. I was 13 not involved in the physical work, itself. 14 Q. You were observing in a supervisory role; is 15 that correct? 16 A. I don't believe so. I was the plant 17 environmental engineer, senior engineer, at that 18 time, as I mentioned earlier, and as such would not 19 have been involved in the overseeing of this work, in 20 terms of directing it or getting it done, but simply 21 observing and watching what was going on. 22 Q. Tell me what the company's policy change 23 regarding the use of PCBs and heat transfer system 24 was before the PCB system change over occurred. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021921 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 1 MR. GOUTMAN: Can you read back the 2 question. 3 (The last question was read back by the 4 Court Reporter) 5 MR. GOUTMAN: Are you talking about 6 the Delaware River plant? 7 MR. ZIEGLER: Yes . 8 MR. GOUTMAN: Do you understand that 9 question? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes . 11 There was, in general, a change with 12 respect to open systems use, which this memo 13 seems to imply has happened before this time, 14 and we were simply at a plant site that was 15 using heat trans fer systems, conducting a 16 changeover of those systems. I don't recall 17 seeing a specific written policy or document. 18 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 19 Q. Tell me, if you don't recall seeing a written 20 document, who created the policy regarding PCB use in 21 open heat transfer systems. 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Can you tell me what the system changeovers 24 were that were being contemplated in this document? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021922 MICHAEL A. PIERLE ' 61 1 A. What this describes is a replacement of the 2 fluid. 3 Q. Do you know if HB40 has any PCBs in it? 4 A. I don't know that. I don't believe so. 5 Q. So essentially in your open heat transfer 6 systems Monsanto was contemplating a change from PCB 7 fluids to non PCB containing fluids? 8 A. ~ I believe so. 9 Q. And that was for the purpose of reducing or 10 eliminating PCB emissions from those systems? 11 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ec tion to the form of 12 the question. No foundation. He said he 13 didn't make the policy. 14 Go ahead. You can answer if you can. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't know what the 16 purpose was. The effect at the plant site here 17 was that you were basically taking the PCB 18 liquids out and putting a non PCB liquid in. 19 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 20 Q. And as I understand your testimony, you don't 21 know whether that was for the purpose of eliminating 22 PCB emissions or not; is that right? 23 A. Well, I don't know that there were any 24 emissions and I don't know what drove that reference ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021923 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 62 1 to company policy. That's what I interpreted your 2 question to be. 3 Q. Do you know whether this 3 0 to 40 ppb range of 4 PCBs was what prompted the changeover of the use of 5 fluids in the open heat transfer systems? 6 A. I don't believe so. 7 Q. You don't believe that that's what prompted 8 it? - 9 MR. GOUTMAN: He just said that. You 10 are not going to ask questions five times in 11 hopes of getting a different answer at some 12 point. He said he did not think so. If you 13 didn't hear it we can read it back. 14 Don't answer the question. 15 MR. ZIEGLER: Thank you for the 16 clarification. 17 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 18 Q. Why did you put this sentence in this memo 19 regarding the effluent levels being in the 3 0 to 40 20 ppb range for PCBs? 21 A. I don't specifically remember. 22 Q. Sitting here today and reading this 23 memorandum, can you tell me what purpose this 24 particular sentence has within the context of this ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021924 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 63 1 memorandum? 2 MR. GOUTMAN: He just said he doesn't 3 know. He just said it. 4 MR. ZIEGLER: No, wait. He didn't. He 5 said he didn't remember why he didn't put it in 6 there. 7 MR. GOUTMAN: Right. Isn't that the 8 ~ same question? 9 MR. ZIEGLER: No, it's not. 10 MR. GOUTMAN: Why he put it in there 11 versus the purpose of being in there? What's 12 the distinction? You just asked the same 13 question twice. 14 MR. ZIEGLER: No, I didn't. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm confused, I guess. Go 16 ahead and ask me again. 17 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 18 Q. You don't understand. 19 A. I'm confused by the conversation and the 20 question, so ask me the question again. 21 Q. I'm just trying to figure out what this 22 sentence means in the context of the memorandum. 23 That's all. 24 A. I don't know. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021925 MICHAEL A. PIERLE ' 64 1 MR. GOUTMAN: Let's take a five minute 2 break. 3 MR. ZIEGLER: Let me show you what we 4 will have marked as Exhibit 6. (Indicating) . 5 (Whereupon the above-referred to 6 document was marked as Pierle Exhibit 6 for 7 identification) 8 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 9 Q. If you could take a look at Exhibit Number 6, 10 please.. Look at it. 11 A. I will just peruse this document, if that's 12 okay. 13 Q. 14 A. That's okay for right now. I have looked at the document generally. 15 Q. Is this a document that your group helped 16 prepare regarding keeping PCBs out of the 17 environment? 18 A. I have not seen this document before. 19 Q. Do you know who put together this document? 20 A. I do not. It was prepared at a time that I 21 wasn't at the plant site, more than two years after I 22 had left. 23 Q. Can you tell me, do you know if Monsanto ever 24 implemented a policy in which it began to manufacture ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021926 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 65 1 more biodegradable polychlorinated biphenyls? 2 A. You know, my recollection is that there was an 3 effort to develop lower chlorinated products. I 4 don't recall the timing, nor the specific products. 5 Q. Do you recall that the purpose of that was to 6 try to manufacture PCBs that were more biodegradable 7 than the higher chlorinated types of PCBs? @ A. ~ That was one of the attributes. I don't know 9 if that was the purpose of what they were trying to 10 do . 11 Q. Did you have any responsibility with respect 12 to the development of sophisticated systems of 13 effluent monitoring at Monsanto? 14 A. I think we have described my involvement back 15 at the plant site. That's my only recollection of 16 being involved in sampling methods. 17 Q. If you could take a look at page 47695, these 18 questions are directed toward your activities at this 19 plant before August of 1970. 20 Are youon page 47695? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Under, 11 Steps to Eliminate Losses of PCBs11 ? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Under the firstbullet regarding, 11 Installing ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021927 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 66 1 settling basins and directing all flow to these 2 basins by improved paving, curbing and sloping", did 3 you have any activity in this involvement at the 4 plant? 5 A. I recall some of that being designed. I don' t 6 recall when it was complete. 7 Q. What about under the next bullet point 8 regarding the, "Re-routing of the rupture disc 1ines 9 and atmospheric vents through catch tanks"? Can you 10 tell me what catch tanks are in this context? 11 A. In this context they are describing routing 12 vents into larger tanks that would actually catch any 13 materials if it came out of those lines. That's sort 14 of the connotation of it. 15 Q. Was the purpose of these catch tanks to 16 eliminate any escape of PCBs from the disk lines or 17 the vents? 18 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection. You haven't 19 established that this witness had any personal 20 involvement with this. 21 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 22 Q. Did you have any personal involvement with 23 this proj ect? 24 A. None that I recall. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021928 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 67 1 Q. All right. What about putting the nitrogen 2 blankets on top of the tanks? 3 A. No, I don't recall anything on that. 4 Q. The installation of the mist eliminators, did 5 you have any - - 6 A. No, I don't recall any. 7 Q. Do you recall when Monsanto began to move the 8 sewers above grade at this plant? 9 A. No, I do not. 10 Q. Very quickly, if you could turn over to page 11 47698, toward the top of the page there's four bullet 12 points. Do you see those? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And would youagree that PCB measurements can 15 be changed dramatically, depending on any one of 16 these four topics listed beside the bullet point? 17 MR. GOUTMAN: For monitoring effluent 18 streams for PCBs? Is that what you are 19 referring to? 20 MR. ZIEGLER: Yes. 21 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 22 Q. I'm not trying to change the context. 23 A. Yes, I think these were all factors in the 24 sampling effectiveness. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021929 MICHAEL A. PIERLE ' 68 1 Q. Were these issues that you had to deal with 2 before or up to August of 1970 in monitoring the 3 effluent? 4 A. Yes, I believe so. 5 Q. Let's move on to the next exhibit. This will 6 be Exhibit 7. (Indicating). 7 (Whereupon the above-referred to 8 - document was marked as Pierle Exhibit 7 for 9 identification) 10 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 11 Q. Ready? 12 A. I have read Exhibit 7. 13 Q. You authored Exhibit 7 on or about September 14 2, 1976; is that correct? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. And this is a letter to Howard Zar of the EPA; 17 is that correct? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. And tell me what your purpose was in writing 20 to Mr. Zar. 21 A. I sort of recall that the federal EPA at this 22 time had sent us a request for information and what 23 this was was an a11empt to respond to that letter. 24 Q. Is it true that Monsanto made certain ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021930 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 69 1 commitments to the EPA regarding its PCB air 2 emissions? 3 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of 4 the question. 5 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 6 Q. I'm looking at the second page, last line. 7 A. The, "I trust" line? 8 Q. - Yes . Can you tell me what Monsanto's 9 commitments to the EPA were that prompted the making 10 of this letter? 11 A. I think the way I read this is that the 12 information we provided fulfills the commitments made 13 by Monsanto with respect to past PCB discussions . I 14 don't recall whe ther tha t was j us t a commitment to 15 respond or what. I don't know what the specific 16 commitment is; it j us t says past discussions. 17 Q. All right. Let's move on. 18 Do you recall in 1976 representing to 19 the EPA that Monsanto's PCB operation in - - how do 20 you pronounce it; Sauget? 21 A. Sauget. 22 Q. Illinois had PCB emissions of less than one 23 pound per day? 24 A,. Did I just read that in that prior? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021931 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 70 1 (Indicating) . 2 MR. GOUTMAN: He's asking you whether 3 you recall that now. 4 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. My reference is that it seems to me there was 7 a reference to that note to that or one of the other 8 documents. I don't recall it independent of the 9 conversations that we are now having. 10 MR. ZIEGLER: This will be Pierle 11 Exhibit 8. (Indicating) 12 (Whereupon the above-referred to 13 document was marked as Pierle Exhibit 8 for 14 identification) 15 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 16 Q. Have you had a chance to look at Exhibit 17 Number 8? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. This Exhibit Number 8 is aletter from you to 20 Mr. Roy Harsch dated December 6, 1976; is that 21 correct? 22 A. Yes, it is. 23 Q. And you are attaching certain PCB effluent 24 data; is that correct? Relating to the Krummrich ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021932 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 71 1 plant. 2 A. And the Village of Sauget waste water 3 treatment plant. 4 Q. If you could turn over to the pages that 5 follow this, can you tell me, from this information, 6 is it possible to calculate the total daily emissions 7 from either the Krummrich plant or the Sauget waste 8 treatment plant? 9 When I say 11 the amount" , I'm thinking 10 can we calculate pounds per day from this data? 11 A. You should be able to. 12 Q. How would I go about doing that? 13 A. Well, in each case the pounds per day is a 14 product of the concentration, times the flow, times 15 some factor that adjusts for units. Conversion 16 units. 17 Q. You would have to convert from gallons to 18 liters so that you could - - 19 A. You would have to get them all on either 20 metric units or all on English units, and then there 21 has to be conversion to then get to pounds and then 22 pounds per day. 23 Q- I see. So essentially, if I wanted to figure 24 out th e pounds per day, I can convert gallons per ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021933 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 72 1 minute to liters per minute, and then calculate how 2 many milligrams per minute would be released, and 3 then from that calculate an average for the entire 4 day, and then convert it back to pounds if I wanted 5 to; right? 6 A. As long as those samples were taken over a 7 daily period of time or something, yes. And I don't 8 know what the description of the samp1es, themselves, 9 are . 10 MR. ZIEGLER: This will be Exhibit 9. 11 (Indicating) 12 (Whereupon the above-referred to 13 document was marked as Pierle Exhibit 9 for 14 identification) 15 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 16 Q. I'm showing you what has been marked as 17 Exhibit Number 9. My question is simply did you 18 submit Exhibit Number 8 in response to Mr. Zar's 19 letter, which has been marked as Exhibit Number 9? 20 A. Could you repeat the question or read it back? 21 Q. The question is simply your transmittal, which 22 is contained in Exhibit Number 8, is that in response 23 to Mr. Zar's letter, which is Exhibit Number 9? 24 A. These appear to be a sequence of ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021934 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 73 1 communications: The September second letter 2 transmitting data, the November letter from EPA 3 requesting additional information, and then the 4 submission of the supplemental data in the December 5 six memorandum. 6 MR. GOUTMAN: Are you done.with that 7 one? 8 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 9 Q. Is that your answer? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Just some final questions. 12 Do you recall any discussions that you 13 had with anybody at Monsanto at any time before 1975 14 regarding the policing of uses of PCB containing 15 products for the purpose of preventing environmental 16 contamination? 17 A. I don't recall. 18 Q. Do you recall any conversations within 19 Monsanto regarding the prolongation of the 20 manufacture, sale, and use of Aroclors? 21 A. No. 22 Q. We talked about egg shells earlier. Do you 23 recall any discussions concerning the toxicity of 24 PCBs towards certain species to be high? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021935 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 74 1 A. I don't recall specific coneentrations about 2 levels and outcomes and that, no. 3 Q. Did you have any involvement with the animal 4 studies that Monsanto was conducting? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Were you aware that they were occurring? 7 A. No. 8 Q. - Did you ever learn of any of the results of 9 the animal studies? 10 MR. GOUTMAN: .Other than in 11 communications with counsel? 12 MR. ZIEGLER: Well, I don't want you to 13 tell me about your communications with 14 Mr. Goutman. 15 MR. GOUTMAN: Or other Monsanto counsel. 16 MR. ZIEGLER: Or other Monsanto counsel. 17 THE WITNESS: No. 18 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 19 Q. Did you ever look into the question of whether 20 the prevalence of PCBs in the environment was of 21 natural origin? 22 A . I don't recall doing that. 23 Q . Do you recall that subj ec t ever being 24 discussed within your environmental groups ? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021936 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 75 1 A. I do not. 2 Q. Do you ever recall any discussion within your 3 environmental group that Monsanto was, in view of the 4 moral considerations, should notify all Aroclor 5 customers of the environmental contamination problem? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you recall any discussion within your 8 environmental group that Monsanto should consult with 9 appropriate federal agencies to inform them of 10 Monsanto' s research and PCB control efforts? 11 A. Could you restate the front part of your 12 question? 13 Q. My question is really not regarding the 14 consultations or the communications, themselves, but 15 whether you were involved in any sort of decision 16 within Monsanto that Monsanto should be consulting 17 the appropriate federal agencies in Washington to 18 inform them of Monsanto's research and control 19 efforts. 20 A. No. 21 Q. Was part of your job from 1975 onward to, in 22 whole or in part, to contact universities and 23 laboratories in connection with PCB environmental 24 contamination? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021937 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 76 1 A. No. 2 Q. Do you have any recollection of, in terms of 3 effluent standards, what PCB levels you were trying 4 to achieve? 5 MR . GOUTMAN: When? 6 MR. ZIEGLER: After 1975. 7 MR . GOUTMAN: In what medium? 8 MR . ZIEGLER: Meaning - - 9 MR . GOUTMAN: Water run off? 10 what you are talking about? 11 MR. ZIEGLER: Actually, I' m thinking 12 about the Sauget plant. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't recall the level. 14 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 15 Q. Was part of your job determining the release 16 of Aroclors from burning or partial incineration of 17 waste containing Aroclors? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did you ever deal with Aroclor vapor losses in 20 connection with plasticizer applications? 21 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection. Overly broad. 22 What does that mean? You mean the 23 manufacturing process? 24 MR. ZIEGLER: Really, in any connection ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021938 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 77 1 in terms of plasticizer applications. 2 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 3 Q. Did you ever study or look into or provide 4 anybody information regarding PCB vapor losses from 5 those types of products? 6 MR. GOUTMAN: You mean the finished 7 product? 8- MR. ZIEGLER: Yes. 9 THE WITNESS: I don't recall ever having 10 done that. 11 BY MR. ZIEGLER: 12 Q. Do you recall ever discussing the issue of PCB 13 pollution and caulking compounds and sealants while 14 you worked at Monsanto? 15 MR. JUETTNER: Objection to the form of 16 the question. 17 THE WITNESS: No. 18 MR. ZIEGLER: No further questions. ' 19 Thank you for your time, sir. 20 MR. ROUX: I have no questions. 21 22 BY MR. JUETTNER: 23 Q. Mr. Pierle, my name is John Juettner and my 24 law firm respects a co-defendant, ChemRex, in this ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021939 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 78 1 case. I have just a few follow-up questions. 2 Mr. Pierle, you testified that you were 3 involved with an environmental group when you were 4 working in St. Louis starting in approximately 1975. 5 A. Within MonsantoCompany? 6 Q. That's correct. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. - Do you recall who the members of that group 9 were at that time? 10 A. I believe it was Des Hosmer, Paul Hodges, Mort 11 Mullins, and Garth Fort. 12 Q. And with regard to the group's involvement in 13 examining PCB emissions, are those the individuals 14 that have, that took part in the evaluation of PCB 15 emissions? 16 A. We each had different areas of assignments and 17 we tend to not get into one another's different 18 issues, so it would be wrong to characterize that 19 that group was all involved in the PCBs issues. That 20 was not the practice of that group. 21 Q. Whatever the practice of that group was, was 22 it focused on the emissions of PCBs from that 23 particular manufacturing plant or manufacturing 24 plants of Monsanto? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021940 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 79 1 A. No, the focus of that group was basically any 2 matters and issues with respect to the environment at 3 all of the plant sites within those divisions. 4 Q. With regard to your job responsibilities 5 through the course of your career at Monsanto, were 6 you involved at all in the marketing of PCBs to 7 Monsanto customers? 8 A. - No. 9 Q. Were you involved at all in recommending or 10 evaluating uses of PCBs in products manufactured by 11 Monsanto customers? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Have you ever heard of Sonneborn Building 14 Products? 15 A. No, I have not. 16 Q. Do you know anything about PCBs being used as 17 an ingredient in any type of caulk or sealant? 18 A. No, I do not. 19 Q. Do you know anything about PCBs migrating from 20 a PCB containing product to a non PCB containing 21 product? 22 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Overly broad. 23 You can answer if you can. 24 _ THE WITNESS: No, I don't. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021941 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 80 1 MR. JUETTNER: That's all I have. 2 MR. GOUTMAN: Let's take a 60 second 3 break here. 4 (Deposition recessed) . 5 MR. GOUTMAN: No questions. 6 (Witness excused.) 7 (Deposition concluded at 12:45 p.m.) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021942 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 81 1 2 CERTIFICATE 3 4 5 I, JOHN W. BEGLEY, a Registered 6 Professional Reporter and Notary of the State of 7 Pennsylvania, do hereby certify that I reported the 8 deposition of Michael A. Pierle in the foregoing 9 matter; that the foregoing is a true and correct 10 transcript of the stenographic notes of testimony 11 taken by me. 12 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not an 13 attorney or counsel of any of the parties; nor a 14 relative or employee to any attorney or counsel 15 connected with the action, nor am I in any way 16 interested in the result of said case. 17 18 JOHN W. BEGLEY 19 20 DATE: 21 *NOTE: The certification appended hereto does not 22 apply to any reproduction of same unless under the 23 direct control and/or supervision of the certifying 24 court reporter. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES WATER PCB-SD0000021943 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 82 1 INSTRUCTIONS TO THE WITNESS 2 Read your deposition over care fully. 11 is 3 your right to read your deposition and make any 4 changes in form or substance. You should assign a 5 reason in the appropriate column on the errata 6 sheet for any change made. 7 After making any change in form or 8 substance which has been noted on the following 9 errata sheet along with the reason for any 10 change, sign your name on the errata sheet and 11 date it. 12 Then sign your deposition at the end of 13 your testimony in the space provided. You are 14 signing it subj ect to the changes you have made in 15 the errata sheet, which will be attached to the 16 deposition before filing. You must sign it in 17 front of a witness. Have the witness sign in the 18 space provided. The witness need not be a notary 19 public. Any competent adult may witness your 20 signature. 21 Return the original errata sheet & transcript 22 to the deposing attorney, (attorney asking questions) 23 promptly! Court rules require filing within 3 0 days 24 after you receive the deposition. Thank you. WATER PCB-SD0000021944 1 ERRATA SHEET 2 PAGE LINE # CHANGE REASON THEREFOR 3 23 5 "thalate" to "phthalate" Spel1inq 4 23 11 "thalate" to "phthalate" Spel1ing 5 44 18 "don't" recall to "do" recall Transcription 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 83 WATER PCB-SD0000021945 1 SIGNATURE PAGE 2 OF 3 MICHAEL A. PIERLE 4 5 6 7 I hereby acknowledge that I have 8 read the aforegoing deposition and that the same is 9 a true and correct transcription of the answers 10 given by me to the questions propounded, except for 11 the changes, if any, noted on the attached errata 12 sheet. 13 14 15 16 17 SIGNATURE 18 19 20 WITNESSED BY: 21 22 23 DATE 24 84 WATER PCB-SD0000021946 1 2 PAGE LINE 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 LAWYER'S NOTES 85 WATER PCB-SD0000021947