Document qkL2QLZGb72N1m1LLKMbjaL6x

1 2 3 4 8: 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 202 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS BEAUMONT DIVISION ******************************************************** * CECIL SCOTT, ET AL * VS. * CIVIL ACTION ** NO. B-84-1103-CA * MONSANTO COMPANY * * VOLUME.II VIDEO DEPOSITION OF ELMER P WHEELER 9:46 a.m. to 4:31 p.m. May 8, 1987 Holiday Inn - Camden Lugoff, South Carolina Reported by: Linda C. Baker Texas CSR No. 505/Notary Public Nell McCallum & Associates 2900 Smith, Suite 104 Houston, Texas 77006 (713) 523-3767 Taxable Cost: $ Charged to: DAVID M. LACEY, State Bar No: Attorney for: Plaintiffs ESQ. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50415 203 1 APPEARANCES: 2 For the Plaintiffs: 3 DAVID M. LACEY, ESQ. 4 Gilpin, Pohl & Bennett 1300 Post Oak Boulevard 5 Allied Bank Tower, 23rd Floor Houston, Texas 77056 6 7 For the Defendant: 8 JONATHAN B. SHOEBOTHAM, ESQ. Woodard, Hall & Primm 9 4700 Texas Commerce Tower Houston, Texas 77002 10 11 Videotechnician: 12 James Heironimus Executive Service Groups 13 14 ******** 15 16 Deposition of ELMER P. WHEELER, taken on 17 May 8, 1987, at Holiday Inn - Camden, Lugoff, 18 South Carolina, between the hours of 9:46 a.m. 19 and 4:31 p.m., before Linda C. Baker, CSR No. 505 20 and Notary Public in and for the State of Texas, 21 at the instance of the Plaintiffs, pursuant to 22 Notice and the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. 23 24 ******* 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50416 204 1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 WITNESS: ELMER P. WHEELER - VOLUME II 3 4 5 APPEARANCES 6 PROCEEDINGS 7 CONTINUED EXAMINATION BY: Mr. Lacey 8 AFTERNOON SESSION -- 9 CONTINUED EXAMINATION BY: Mr. Lacey 10 EXAMINATION BY: 11 Mr. Shoebotham 12 RE-EXAMINATION BY: Mr. Lacey 13 WITNESS SIGNATURE PAGE AND JURAT 14 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 15 LAWYER'S NOTES 16 17 ******* EAGE 203 205 206 317 393 395 400 401 .402 18 WHEELER EXHIBITS MARKED 19 PAGE 20 1 - Memo dated August 19, 1959, from 247 21 G. Robert Sido regarding "LABELING, AROCLORS - PYRANOLS - INTERTEENS" 22 2 - Seven-page document on Monsanto Industrial 351 23 Chemicals Co. letterhead stationery, titled THE POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS LITERATURE 24 REEE&EHS (undated) 25 , NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50417 205 1 *** gflLimm 2 May 8, 1987 3 4 5 E&OCfiEBIHfifl 6 7 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN: Okay. This is 8 the continuing deposition of Mr. Elmer P. 9 Wheeler. 10 The date is May 8th, 1987. The time 11 is approximately 9:46 a.m. 12 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Let me say one thing 13 on the record before we begin. 14 Mr. Wheeler told me this morning that 15 he misspoke on one question yesterday. 16 You asked him about his prior 17 deposition testimony. He answered that he 18 had been deposed once before, and he 19 remembered overnight that he's actually 20 been deposed on two occasions. 21 22 23 ******* 24 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50418 206 1 CONTINUED EXAMINATION 2 3 QUESTIONS BY MR. LACEY: 4 Q Well, let me just -- I -- no, I -- I was going 5 to come back and ask you about that, anyway, so let me 6 just go ahead and do that now. 7 Tell me about the events where you have 8 previously given deposition testimony, what the cases 9 were about and what you recall about them 10 A One deposition related to PCBs in the 11 environment. The second one was in relation to 2,4,5-T 12 and the Agent Orange situation. 13 Q So in one case you testified in the Agent 14 Orange -- is this the big Agent Orange case that all the 15 veterans had? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q And that related to -- was Monsanto a defendant 18 in that case? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q Okay. And you were testifying on behalf of 21 Monsanto ? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q And Monsanto was a party in that case because 24 they manufactured 2,4,5-T? 25 A Yes, sir. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50419 207 1 Q And does that have any relationship to -- I 2 don't -- I don't know that I understand the relationship 3 between 2,4,5-T and I've heard of Agent Orange and 4 dioxin. Are those -- is 2,4,5-T dioxin, or is that -- 5 A The dioxin eventually showed up as a 6 contaminant in the 2,4,5-T. 7 Q Okay. And why were you a witness in that? 8 What did you know about all of that? 9 A Well, Monsanto made the 2,4,5-T in our Nitro, 10 West Virginia, plant; so we were producers of the 11 2,4,5-T. 12 Q Well, I guess what I'm trying to find out is: 13 What -- what was your testimony about in that regard, 14 though? 15 A Monsanto had had an unfortunate accident in 16 1949. I don't recall all of the details, but no one was 17 injured at the time of the -- when the reaction got out 18 of control and spewed material from the reactor release 19 valve inside the building. And subsequently there were 20 a number of cases of chloracne from the products that 21 were produced by that decomposition reaction. 22 Q And was your testimony about that accident that 23 happened at the plant? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q I guess I -- what was the relationship between NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050420 208 1 that accident that happened in 1949 at the plant and the 2 litigation that the veterans had? 3 A Well, in '60- -- '61, I believe, a German 4 company that had had a similar Occurrence was able to 5 identify the contaminant that was in the reaction 6 product as dioxin; whereas, in all of our efforts to 7 make a chemical identification, we'd been unsuccessful. 8 Q So other companies had been more successful 9 than Monsanto in finding dioxin as a contaminant in 10 Monsanto product? 11 A No, sir. what I'm say.ing was that at that time 12 the analytical technique was such that they could 13 identify the dioxin in the unwanted reaction products 14 that contaminated the 2,4,5-T. 15 Q Well, what I'm trying to find out is: Monsanto 16 had previously looked for dioxin as a contaminant or 17 looked for contaminants and didn't find dioxin? 18 A They did not find dioxin. 19 Q And then this German company looked for 20 contaminants and found dioxin? 21 A Yes, sir; finally identified the contaminant, 22 one of the contaminants, to be dioxin. 23 Q And did Monsanto ultimately conclude that this 24 German company was correct, and that dioxin was one of 25 the contaminants in its product? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50421 209 1 A We concluded that there was -- the dioxin ih 2 the residues from the runaway reaction was dioxin. 3 Q Okay* And when you describe a runaway 4 reaction, what do you mean? , 5 A Well, the manufacturer in this case was to -- 6 to put into a large steel or ~- or metal vessel that may 7 have been five or six feet in diameter and eight or ten 8 feet tall -- it was jacketed so that the temperature 9 of -- of the materials in the reaction could be 10 controlled. There were also safety relief valves 11 provided so that if the pressure in the -- in the 12 reactor exceeded certain limits, the pressure release 13 valve would open to prevent an explosion of the vessel 14 itself. 15 In this case, it's my recollection that the 16 cooling -- the water cooling system which was provided 17 to control the temperature of the reaction failed, so 18 that the pressure built up to a point that the -- the 19 pressure-relief valve blew as it was supposed to, and 20 spewed the contents of that -- of the vessel around the 21 interior of the building in which it was being made. 22 When it was determined by instrumentation and 23 by observation of the operators that the cooling effect 24 was not -- the cooling action was not effective in 25 controlling the pressure, they shut things down and left NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. . TOWOLDMONOQ50422 210 1 the building* 2 Q What were the raw materials that were used to 3 make 2,4,5-T? 4 A I don't recall specifically, sir* 5 Q Did 2,4,5-7 have a benzene ring in it? 6 A Yes, sir* 7 Q And was there chlorine in it? 8 A Yes, sir* 9 Q Was that basically what the product was, was a 10 chlorinated benzene ring? 11 A Yes, X think that wedescribed yesterday, when 12 they were trying to decide where the commas were, it was 13 2,4,5-------14 HR* SHOEBOTBAH* Hr* Wheeler, please 15 don't guess or speculate* If you -- if 16 the -- 17 A I -- I'm -- I'm -- I'm sorry, sir* I've 18 forgotten the complete chemical designation for it* 19 BY HR. LACEY* 20 Q I wasn't so concerned with that, but I -- just 21 whether the chemical compound 2,4,5-T was benzene ring 22 with some chlorination to it* 23 A Yes* 24 Q Okay* And when we talk about chlorinated 25 biphenyl, we're talking about two benzene rings that are NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50423 i 211 1 joined together and chlorinated. Correct? 2 A Yes# sir. 3 Q If we were able to take a PCB that was 4 chlorinated and split the two benzene rings apart# 5 depending on where the chlorine molecules were# we might 6 have some molecules of 2#4#5-T. Correct? 7 A No# sir. 8 Q Would that not becorrect? 9 A No# sir. 10 Q why not? 11 A It's my understanding that the chemical bonding 12 of the two benzene rings is such that that would not 13 occur. 14 Q No. I'm sorry. I meant to ask you* If they 15 were split apart# if that were chemically possible# you 15 would then have two benzene rings that were chlorinated. 17 Correct? 18 MR. SHOEBOTHAM* Hr. Wheeler has just 19 indicated to you that that's not 20 chemically possible, 21 BY HR. LACEY * 22 Q I see. It's not chemically possible. Is that 23 your testimony? 24 A To my knowledge# that's not possible. 25 Q Okay. NELLMCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50424 212 1 Now, with regard to the other lawsuit, the PCB 2 lawsuit, what was that lawsuit about? 3 A It related to the unin*- -- unintended release 4 of leaking hydraulic fluid in -- I don't remember the 5 name of the town, but it was -- it was a town on Lake 6 Michigan* 7 Q Has it in the State of Michigan? 8 A Yes, sir -- oh, I beg your pardon. No, I 9 believe it was in Wisconsin* 10 Q When did you, approximately, give the 11 deposition in the Agent Orange case? 12 A About four years ago, sir* 13 Q And when did you give the deposition in the 14 PCB case? 15 A I believe two years before that* 16 Q I guess you follow the newspaper and understand 17 the Agent Orange case is at least in the Courts of 18 Appeal at this point? Id A I don't know that that's the case, sir* 20 Q Were you ever called to testify at trial in 21 that case? , 22 A No, sir* 23 Q Were you evercalled to testify at trial in 24 this PCB case in Wisconsin or Michigan? 25 A No, sir. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50425 213 1 Q Do you know whether or not that case has been a disposed of? 3 A I don't know the disposition of it, sir. 4 Q What was your testimony in that case about? 5 A My recollection is that it referred to when the 6 evidence became available that PCBs were showing up in 7 the environment in conjunction with DDT and other 8 chlorinated pesticides. 9 Q Did that case deal at all with the adverse 10 effects on human health from PCBs? 11 A No, sir. 12 Q Did your testimony in the Agent Orange case 13 deal at all with the adverse effects on human health of 14 Agent Orange or 2,4,5-T or dioxin or whatever? 15 A I think my testimony was limited only to the 16 chloracne effects. 17 Q Okay. So you weren't testifying whether or not 18 there were effects beyond chloracne, only that chloracne 19 was an effect? 20 A mat's right, sir. 21 Q You have never, I take it, testified any time 22 at trial. 23 A No, sir. 24 Q And all the testimony you've ever given now 25 will consist of three casess One -- one testimony by NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50426 214 1 deposition in Agent Orange, one testimony by deposition 2 in the Wisconsin PCS case, and one testimony by 3 deposition in this case* 4 A In this case, yes, sir* 5 Q Okay* 6 Are there any other ways that you misspoke 7 yourself yesterday? 8 A Not that I recall, sir* 9 Q Okay* If during the course of this day you 10 remember any ways in which you misspoke yourself, please 11 let me know, because I'd like to be able to explore 12 those things with you before we conclude your 13 deposition* Okay? 14 A I would, sir, because I recognize I'm under 15 oath, and -- 16 Q Certainly* 17 Among other just housekeeping matters, do you 18 own any stock in Monsanto? 19 A Yes, sir* 20 Q How much stock do you own? 21 A It's 601 or 603shares* 22 Q Okay* 23 A I can't understand the oddness; because there 24 was a stock split, and it seems like it ought to be 602, 25 perhaps, or 604, but ~ NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50427 215 1 Q Okay. 2 A Approximately 600 shares. 3 Q All right. Are those all owned in your own 4 name? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q Do any o your family members own any stock? 7 A Ho, sir. 8 Q Okay. And --- and do you have a -- I take it 9 you do have a pension of some sort from Monsanto? 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q Approximately what do you receive each month in 12 that pension? 13 A I think currently, after income tax 14 withholding, it*s about $1,500. 15 Q Okay. Per month? 16 A I beg your pardon? 17 Q Per month? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q After tax? 20 A Yes, sir; plus $135.25 from Travelers Insurance 21 Company, which was made available as part of the 22 Monsanto Pension Plan. 23 Q That's just a -- a pension payment? 24 A I beg your pardon? 25 Q That's just a pension payment of some sort? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50428 216 1 A Yes, sir* 2 MR. SH0B30THAH: Sounds like some 3 sort o an annuity or something* 4 HR* LACEY: I guess* 5 BY HR* LACEYl 6 Q Do you have any other things that you receive 7 from Monsanto, other than your pension and whatever you 8 get as a result of your stock ownership? 9 A No, sir. 10 Q Okay* 11 Let me discuss with you the process by which -- 12 or actually not the process) X think we discussed 13 yesterday the process by which information was supplied 14 to other companies that bought PCB products from 15 Monsanto -- but the information that was conveyed* 16 And we discussed yesterday the fact that there 17 were sometimes questions that might be asked by 18 customers about Monsanto products that would not be 19 disclosed; for example, the information that Ford 20 requested on the specific composition of a specific 21 product, and Monsanto did not disclose that* Do you 22 recall that? 23 A Excuse me* Did you say, "decomposition 24 products"? 25 Q No* The specific composition of a product; NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50429 217 1 exactly what it contained* 2 A Do you have a -- a document there, sir, that -- 3 Q No. I'm referring to the documents that you 4 reviewed with Mr* Shoebotham about the correspondence 5 with Ford. 6 A It -- it's my recollection that we wrote to 7 Ford, and *-- and I think that we testified yesterday 8 that we did not release that identification. 9 Q Okay. Well, that's what X wanted to establish. 10 Now, my question really ist Was there ever any 11 time when Monsanto would not at least advise customers 12 that a product contained some PCB? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q There were times that you would not even 15 disclose that information? 16 A in connection with the Pydrauls, yes, sir. 17 Q I see. What about the Aroclors? If someone 18 were purchasing Aroclor, would they be advised that 19 Aroclors contained PCB? 20 A Ever since I was with the company, the people 21 were told that either by label or by any other means of 22 communication that we had with them. 23 Q Okay. And, certainly, it would be your 24 expectation as a member of the Medical Department who 25 was preparing literature to be provided to other NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050430 218 1 customers or to ~ I'm sorry* 2 It would be your expectation as a member of the 3 Corporate Medical Department who was involved in 4 preparing literature to provide to customers that 5 persons who bought* companies that bought* Aroclor 6 products would know that they were buying products 7 containing PCBs* Correct? 3 A Sir* the answer to that is they knew they were 9 buying PCBs* The Aroclors were PCBs* 10 Q Okay* And within a company that was a 11 customer* if the company had its own Industrial Hygiene 12 or Toxicology Department* you would certainly expect 13 that the manager of that department would be aware of 14 the fact that Monsanto's Aroclors contained PCBs* would 15 you not? 16 A I think I just said* sir* that the labels 17 and any information on Aroclors said they were 18 polychlorinated biphenyls* 19 Q That's not my question* If you would listen* 20 piease* 21 My question is that you would certainly expect 22 that for a customer that was buying Aroclors from 23 Monsanto* the manager of the Industrial Hygiene and 24 Toxicology Section or Department of that customer would 25 be aware that Aroclors contained PCBs* would you not? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50431 219 1 MR. SHOEBOTHAMt Mr. Lacey, you've 2 got a letter in your hand there. If -- if 3 you want to show that to Mr. Wheeler and 4 talk about it, why don't you do that, 5 instead of asking him a general question 6 like this? 7 HR. LACEYt Well, X want to get his 8 answer to the general question first. 9 Then we can look at the specific problem. 10 MR. SHOEBOTHAMt Well, X want the 11 record to be clear that you're holding the 12 exhibit within your hand right now, and 13 you haven't shown it to Mr. Wheeler. 14 MR. LACEYt Well, let the record be 15 clear what X'm holding in my hand is a 16 document that's not been produced by 17 Monsanto. 18 MR. SHOEBOTHAMt Well, why don't you 19 show that to Mr. Wheeler and then to me? 20 MR. LACEYs Well, let me ask the 21 question now. 22 A I -- I think I answered earlier. X -- the 23 answer is that -- you asked if they would know that the 24 Aroclors contained PCBs. My response, sir, was they 25 would know that Aroclors were PCBs. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50432 220 1 BY MR* LACEY* 2 Q Okay* Well* when we talk about "they" were - 3 the company, "they#" do you mean every employee of that 4 customer would know that; every single one of them? 5 A Oh# no# sir* 6 Q Okay* Now# that's the point of my question* 7 Would you expect that the manager of the Industrial 8 Qygiene and toxicology Section of that customer would 9 know that Aroclors contained PCBs? 10 A Yes# sir* 11 Q In fact# it would be very important that the 12 people who were responsible for the industrial hygiene 13 and toxicology efforts of Monsanto customers know that 14 Aroclors contained PCBs so they could do their job 15 properly* 16 A Sir# again# not that Aroclorscontained PCBs* 17 Aroclors were PCBs* 18 Q Okay* That's fine* With that -- with that 19 rephrasing# it would be very important that whoever at a 20 customer of Monsanto that purchased Aroclors was 21 responsible for industrial hygiene and toxicology# it 22 would be important that they know that Aroclors are 23 PCBs# wouldn't it? 24 A Yes# sir* 25 Q They really couldn't do aneffective job as a IMELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50433 221 1 manager of industrial hygiene and toxicology without 2 knowing that Arodors were PCBs# would they? 3 MR. S30E30THAMI Let me object to 4 that question. It completely excludes all 5 the warning labels that were placed on the 6 Aroclor products# and all the information 7 that went out with Aroclor products to 8 individuals like you're apparently 9 discussing. 10 And# again# Mr. Lacey# you have in 11 your hand a letter which apparently 12 specifically addresses these things. I'd 13 appreciate it if you'd show that to 14 Mr. Wheeler# and let's talk about the 15 exhibit. 16 MR. LACEYi I will at the appropriate 17 time# Mr. Shoebothaa. 18 MR. SHOEBOTHAM* Well# I think now 19 would be an appropriate time -- 20 MR. LACEY* Well -- 21 MR. SHOEBQTHAM* -- since you've 22 started discussing the topic. 23 MR. LACEY* I -- I'm asking the 24 questions# and I -- when I think it's 25 appropriate# I'll do that. NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50434 222 1 HR. SHOEBOTHAH* Well, I want the 2 record to he clear again that you -- you 3 have an exhibit here in your hand you 4 haven*t shown to Mr. Wheeler* 5 HR. LACEY * It1a not even marked as 6 an exhibit* Hr. Shoebotham. I have a 7 piece of paper I'm looking at. 6 HR. SHOESOTBAM: And it's in your 9 hands right now, and you haven't -- 10 HR. LACEYt It is not in my hands 11 right now. 12 BY HR. LACEY* 13 Q How, let me ask the question again, and we can 14 get beyond this problem here. 15 Among or within any company that has an 16 Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology Department, those 17 people within the company are the ones who are going to 18 be doing the very same things that you did for Monsanto; 19 that is, inspecting plants and looking out for workers* 20 safety. Correct? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q That's the very job of an industrial hygienist? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And one of thethings the industrial hygienist 25 has got to know to do his job right is what chemicals NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50435 223 1 the workers he's trying to protect are working with. 2 Correct? 3 A Yes., sir. 4 Q Now, if the informationdistribution network 5 that you have told us about was working correctly -- and 6 by that, Z mean if the warning labels were all working 7 like they should be, if the distribution of technical 8 literature was all working like it should be, and if 9 people were getting the information directly from the 10 Medical Department if that was appropriate --- a person 11 who was managing an Xndustrial Hygiene Department of a 12 major company would not be in the dark about the fact 13 tnat Aroclora were PCBs, would they? 14 A That's correct. 15 Q And if, in fact, inFebruary of 1972 the 16 manager of an Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology 17 Department for a major company didn't know that Aroclora 18 were PCBs, that would indicate some sort of breakdown in 19 the distribution of information that Monsanto hoped 20 would take place? 21 MR. SHOEBOTHAM* I Object to the 22 form of the question. You're asking 23 Mr. Wheeler to speculate as to why some 24 individual in another company would not 25 know that the products contained PCBs. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50436 224 1 I think you*re calling on Hr. Wheeler to 2 speculate, and Z object to the question on 3 that basis. 4 HR. LACEY* Well, I'm not calling for 5 him to speculate. 6 BY HR. LACEY* 7 Q I*m just simply asking you* Wouldn't it be 8 true that if in February of 1972 the manager of 9 Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology for a major company 10 didn't know that FC3s were Aroclors, then that would 11 indicate that somewhere along the line the system of 12 information and warning that Monsanto had hoped would 13 get information to the customers had broken down? 14 A I can't answer that, sir, because you've set up 15 again a hypothetical situation* You've -- you have -- 16 your question began with "if." 17 Q Well, let me see if we can remedy that 18 hypothetical -- 19 HR. SHOEBOTHAM* And, again -- 20 BY MR. LACEY* 21 Q -- situation. 22 HR. SHOEBOTHAM: And, again, X think 23 the problem Hr. Wheeler is having with the 24 question is you're asking him to speculate 25 as to why this individual, whom you NELLMCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50437 225 1 haven't identified to him yet, didn't know 2 that PCBs were At odors. And I think that 3 calls upon him to speculate as to why 4 someone did or did not have certain 5 knowledge* 6 BY HR. LACEY* 7 Q Well -- well, let me -- let me for a moment 8 explore the -- the line of suggestion that your lawyer's 9 been giving* 10 MR* SHOEBOTHAM* Let me on the record 11 clear that up* 12 I don't represent Mr* Wheeler* I 13 represent Monsanto* 14 MR* LACEYi 1 see. 15 BY MR* LACEYI 16 Q How -- how many hours have you spent meeting 17 with Mr* Shoebotham both before and during this 18 deposition? 19 A Four to six hours, X guess* 20 Q He was here the entirety of the day Wednesday 21 before the deposition, wasn't he? 22 A X beg your pardon? 23 Q The entire day of Wednesday before your 24 deposition started on Thursday, he was here, wasn't he? 25 A X wasn't with him the full day, sir* NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50438 226 1 Q I see. How many hours were you with him on 2 Wednesday? 3 A 1 just said, sir, 1 think four to six hours. 4 Q And then yesterday at every break and at 5 lunchtime you and Mr. Shoehotham stayed together and 6 talked about the case, didn't you? 7 A We talked about what? 3 Q About your testimony and about the case. 9 A Among other things, yes, sir. 10 Q And again this morning you met with 11 Hr. Shoebotham to discuss your testimony in the case? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q Okay. 14 Let's go backand talk alittle bit about the 15 system of warnings and the system of information that 16 Monsanto intended to take place. 17 What the Medical Department intended as its 18 method of communication with customers was that 19 Technical Bulletins would go to the appropriate 20 information receivers at customers so they would know 21 about tne properties of Aroclors, the toxicity of 22 Aroclors, and the safe handling of Aroclors. Correct? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q It was intended thatwarning labels would give 25 information on the proper handling and the toxicity of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50439 227 1 Aroclors and would get this appropriate information to 2 customers. Correct? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q And if that didn't work, that would indicate 5 that what the Medical Department had designed as its 6 method of communicating information about toxicity and 7 safe handling was not working, wouldn't it? 8 A Z can't think of any indication where we had 9 knowledge that it was not working, sir. 10 Q Okay. That's not my question. 11 My question isi If that didn't take place -- 12 if that information wasn't enough, wasn't effective to 13 get to the appropriate information within -- or to the 14 appropriate people within a customer, what Aroclors were 15 and how to handle them safely -- then that was an 16 indication that what you had designed wasn't working. 17 Xsn't that correct? 18 MR. SHOEBOTHAMi Mr. Lacey, 19 Mr. Wheeler told you that he didn't know 20 about any instances of that happening. 21 Again, you've apparently got some 22 letter over there. Why don't you just 23 mark that and show it to Mr* Wheeler, and 24 let's talk about that. 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050440 228 1 BY HR. LACEY* 2 Q I'm trying to find out bow the system was 3 designed first* Then we can try to determine whether it 4 worked or not* 1 want to understand what the intention 5 of Medical Department was and when# if ever# they would 6 concede that what they had designed was a failure* 7 Mow# the system that you designed was to use 8 Technical Bulletins and to use product labels and# if a 9 customer contacted# to provide information to the 10 customer* Isn't that correct? 11 A Yes# sir* 12 Q There wasn't any other system# was there? 13 MR* SHOEBOTHAM* Well# Mr* Lacey# 14 there are Material Safety Data Sheets# and 15 there are also system sales and 16 development representatives in the field 17 that Mr* Wheeler's told you about, 18 BY MR. LACEY* 19 Q Do you want to adopt that# too; the Material 20 Safety Data Sheets and the sales representatives in the 21 field? 22 MR* SHOEBOTHAMt It's not a question 23 of him adopting it# Mr* Lacey* He told 24 you about it yesterday* 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50441 229 X BY MR* LACEY* 2 Q So there are rive things that raaks up the 3 system, then* Correct? is that accurate? 4 A Z haven't counted them* sir* 5 Q Well let's count them* What's the Mo* 1 6 thing? The Technical Bulletins? 7 A I would think, yes* 8 Q The second thing -- and I -- I'm not really 9 trying to get them in order o priority -- but the 10 second thing the product labels that went on the XX containers? 12 A Yes, sir* 13 Q The third thing would be the Material Safety 14 Data Sheets? 15 A Yes, sir* 16 Q The fourth thing would be the salesmen? 17 A Yes, sir* 18 Q And then we'd have the direct contact with the 19 Medical Department if there were questions? 20 A Yes, sir* 21 Q Anything else that was part of the Monsanto 22 system for getting information to customers about PCB 23 products? 24 A I can't think of any, sir* 25 Q Okay* NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. . TOWOLDMONOQ50442 230 1 Now/ within the customer's organization, every 2 customer that Monsanto sold PCBs to was a corporation or 3 a magor company. Isn't that correct? 4 A I -- I -- I'm not sure, I don't have a list of 5 all of the customers, I can't say that they were all 6 major customers, I'm not sure whether materials were 7 sent to research laboratories -- 8 Q Okay, 9 A -- free or were sold, 10 Q Okay, So there may be a few cases where some XI were sent to research laboratories? X2 A I would think so, sir. 13 Q But generally they went to major companies, X4 because they were industrial chemicals. Correct? 15 A Yes, sir, 16 Q And within a major company, one of the most 17 important groups that needed to have appropriate 18 information about the PCB products would be the 19 industrial hygiene and toxicology group of that company, 20 A Yes, sir, 21 Q There's almost no groupthat's moreimportant 22 within a company tohave appropriateinformation on 23 Monsanto's PCB products than the customer's industrial 24 hygiene and toxicology prod- -- group. Isn't that 25 correct? NELLMCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50443 231 1 A Yes# sir, 2 Q Because that's the group within the customer 3 that's responsible for looking after their own workers* 4 safety? 5 A Not the only group, sir, 6 Q But it's one of the major groups, isn't it? 7 A Yes, sir, 8 Q That's what industrial hygiene is ailabout? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q Now, it was the intention of the Medical 11 Department in their five-point program to ensure that 12 every customer and, in particular, that the industrial 13 Hygiene and Toxicology Department of every major 14 customer, had information about the PCB products that 15 Monsanto sold them. Isn't that correct? 16 A Yes, sir, 17 Q And if there were customers who in their 18 Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology Department did not 19 have that information, that would be evidence of a 20 breakdown in the program of communication, would it not? 21 A Not from within Monsanto, no, sir* 22 Q Nell# let's try to explore that. Who had the 23 obligation as the manufacturer and seller of PCBs to get 24 the necessary information on toxicity and safe handling 25 to the customer? Monsanto or the customer? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50444 232 1 A I would say the customer* 2 Q The customer had the obligation to get the 3 information to it? 4 A To their own people? 5 Q No| to -- in to the customer in the first 6 pi ace. 7 A On, no, sir. I didn't say that. 8 Q We11, listen to what I'm asking. Isn't it true 9 that it was Monsanto's obligation to get appropriate 10 information on tox- -- toxicology and safe handling to 11 the appropriate people within the customer's 12 organization? 13 A It was our responsibility to see that the 14 information was in the hands of the customer's plants 15 who could make the best use of that information within 15 the procedures of that own company. 17 Q And among the people that Monsanto had an 18 obligation to get that information into the hands of 19 would be the Industrial Hygiene and Toxicology 20 Department of the customer. Correct? 21 A I don't consider that an obligation; no, sir. 22 Q I see. So if the program designed by Monsanto 23 to communicate information to customers wasn't good 24 enough to get it into the customer's Industrial Hygiene 25 and Toxicology Department, that would not concern you as NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50445 233 1 the Assistant Director of the Medical Department of 2 Monsanto* Is that correct? 3 A I would he disappointed that the information 4 did not get to those people* 5 Q But you wouldn*t think that Monsanto bad failed 6 to do its job* Is that correct? 7 A That's right* sir* 8 Q Okay* Is there any group within a customer 9 who* if the information on PCBs did not reach that 10 group* you would feel that Monsanto had failed to carry 11 out its obligation to disclose the information about 12 PCBs? 13 A I think I -- excuse me* I think our --* our -- 14 I think our obligation was to get the information to the 15 people within the company who supervised the use of the 16 product and ensure that that they had the precautionary 17 statements and Technical Bulletins and the information 18 that we provided. 19 Q Well* who are those people* in your opinion? 20 A 1 would say the production and -- and 21 supervisory people of that particular operation within 22 that company* 23 Q Okay* So* as -- as you view the obligation* it 24 is to get it into the hands of production personnel, not 25 into the hands of the medical personnel or industrial NELLMCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50446 234 1 hygiene personnel. Correct? 2 HR. saOSBOTHAM* I*d have to object 3 to the question. It misstates what 4 Mr. Wheeler said. He said the production 5 and supervisory personnel who were in 6 charge of handling the products# was his 7 testimony. 8 BY MR. LACEY* 9 Q you can answer the question. 10 A I -- I would expect the people that I've 11 mentioned to rely on their sources o interpretation of 12 any information. 13 Q Okay. Was there an organisation of industrial 14 hygienists that got together from time to time? 15 A Yes# sir. X testified yesterday there was the 16 Industrial Hygiene Association. 17 Q Did they put out a directory of their members 18 and who held various industrial hygiene positions within 19 companies? 20 A They put out a directory. I'm not sure in all 21 cases# sir# that it indicated the title o the 22 individual within the corporation or within the 23 university or -- 24 Q Did you ever consider as the Medical Department 25 simply ensuring that the appropriate Industrial Hygiene# NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50447 235 1 Toxicology* and Medical Departments at customers got 2 information on PCEs by just sending a copy of the 3 appropriate Technical Bulletins to the Medical 4 Department or Industrial Hygiene Department of every 5 customer to whom you sold PCSs? 6 A I don't think 1 understood the first part of 7 your question* 8 Q Yes* Let me -- let me make it very clear* 9 Did it ever occur to you that one way to 10 disseminate information about PCBs that Monsanto sold to 11 appropriate people at its customers would be to send the 12 literature on PCBs and their safe handling to the 13 Industrial Hygiene and/or Medical Department of every 14 customer to whom you sold PCBs? 15 A Mot as a routine practice; no* sir. 16 Q That would not have been a hard thing to do* 17 would it? 16 A Z don't know what would be involved* sir. I 19 don't know how many customers we had* 20 Q Well* from the standpoints of identifying 21 whether they had an Industrial Hygiene Department* you 22 could do that pretty easily by using your directory* 23 couldn't you? 24 A Oh* yes* sir* 25 Q And so if you got a customer list and had a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50448 236 1 secretary simply take the manual that listed these 2 members of the Industrial Hygiene Association and 3 compare it with the customer list for PCSs, a secretary 4 could have sent transmittal letters with that 5 information to those people without even involving your 6 time or the salesman timer couldn't they? 7 A I don't know of anybody that followed that 8 practice in the field. 9 Q Well, that's not my question. 10 My question 1st It could have been done with 11 nothing more than a customer list for PCBs and the 12 directory of the members of the American Industrial 13 Hygiene Association. Isn't that correct? 14 A No, sir. 15 Q What elsewould it have taken? 15 A It would have taken a -- a review of the area, 17 the specific area of interest of a particular member. 18 Q I see. 19 A I would see no point in sending it to a -- a 20 member whose primary field was radiation, protection 21 from radiation. 22 Q No, no, no. I'm -- I'm sorry. Maybe I didn't 23 make my question clear. 24 I said, if a secretary had a list of the 25 customers of Monsanto who bought PCB-containing products NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50449 237 1 and had a copy o the directory for the American 2 Industrial Hygiene Association, that secretary could 3 then go down the customer list by the side of each 4 customer, look up the representatives who were members 5 of the Industrial Hygiene Association, and send those 6 people on behalf of the company that purchased PCBs 7 technical literature about PCBs, couldn*t she? 8 A You said, is it possible? It is possible. 9 Q In fact, it would not be all that difficult a 10 task to do, would it? 11 A I can't answer that, sir. we -- we didn't do 12 it. 13 Q Well, what I'm saying ist It wouldn't be 14 technologically difficult to do, would it? 15 MR. SHOESOTHAMs Mr. Lacey, 16 Mr. wheeler's just told you they 17 didn't do it and he can't answer the 18 degree of difficulty that it would have 19 taken to do that. He's told you that 20 several times. Why don't you -- 21 MR. LACEY; Well -- well, let me 22 see -- 23 MR. SHOEBOTHAM; -- move on to a 24 different area. 25 MR. LACEY; Well, let me see if I can NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050450 238 1 understand what would have been difficult 2 about it* 3 BY HR* LACEY< 4 Q The only difficulty would have been looking up 5 the name of each customer that Monsanto sold PCBs to, 6 and then looking in the American Industrial Hygiene 7 Association directory to see if you had the name of a 8 person at that company who was interested in industrial 9 hygiene -- that's all it would have taken, wouldn't 10 it? -- then typed the letter and sent them the material? 11 MR* SH0E30THAM* Hr* Wheeler, you 12 don't have any obligation to speculate in 13 answer to -- 14 A I don't -- 15 MR* SHOEBOTHAMi -- Mr* Lacey's 16 questions* 17 A I -- I can't --* I can't honestly answer the 18 question, sir* 19 BY MR. LACBYi 20 Q Fine* Do you know whether or not Texaco had 21 people who were members of the Industrial Hygiene 22 Association? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q who do you recall at Texaco were members of the 25 Industrial Hygiene Association? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50451 239 1 A Their principal industrial hygienist -- their 2 principal industrial hygienist was a gentleman named 3 Alan Dooley, who was in the Army -- I first met him in 4 the Army Laboratory at Johns Hopkins. 5 Q Do you know any other people who were on their 6 industrial hygiene staff? 7 A I don't recall any others on his staff. I -- 8 and I can't think of the name of his Medical Director, 9 although X knew the Medical Director quite well. 10 Q X see. Would you expect -- what was the 11 fellow's name again? 12 A Alan Dooley. 13 Q Was Mr. -- was Mr. Dooley a pretty competent 14 person? 15 A Xes, sir. 16 Q Would you expect that Mr. Dooley and the people 17 on his staff, if Monsanto had been supplying the 18 appropriate information to Texaco, would be aware that 19 Aroclors contained PC3s? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q And if it turned out that Mr. Dooley and his 22 staff were not aware of the fact that Aroclors contained 23 PCBs, would that give you some concern about how 24 effective your program of getting information to 25 customers was? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50452 240 1 A Excuse me, I -- I -- I have to correct you 2 again, sir* The -- the Aroclors did not contain PCBs* 3 They were a PCB. 4 Q I see. Well, let me ask the question again* 5 I -- X apologise for that* 6 If it turns out you discover that Hr* Dooley 7 and his staff at Texaco were not aware of the fact that 8 Aroclors were PCBs, would that give you some cause for 9 concern about how effective Monsanto's program of 10 getting information out to the customer was? 11 A If I knew that they were purchasers and users 12 of PCBs, I would think that their program had broken 13 down somehow* 14 Q Well, would it occur to you that maybe your 15 program at Monsanto had broken down somewhere, and you 16 ought to be trying to evaluate your own program to see 17 if maybe it wasn't as effective as it should be? 18 A I don't think that I ever saw a list of all of 19 the people who were customers of Aroclors* 29 Q That's not my question* Let me -- let me ask 21 it this way, if I cant If somebody at Monsanto came to 22 you and said, "Elmer, I've just found out that the 23 Industrial Hygiene Department at Texaco doesn't know 24 that Aroclors are PCBs," would that cause you to want to 25 try to investigate your inforaation-generating and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50453 241 1 -sending program to see if maybe there was a breakdown 2 that you needed to fix? 3 A No, sir* 4 Q Would you have felt any obligation at all to do 5 anything to figure out why in the world industrial 6 hygienists at Texaco didn't know that Aroclors were 7 PCBs, or would you just say, "Forget it* It's not ray 8 problem"? 9 A 1 would say X believe that if the Texaco people 10 were buying and using the PCBs, then they were 11 practicing the procedures that we recommended to avoid 12 exposure* 13 Q Well, that's what you'd believe* I'm -- I'm 14 trying to ask a different question* 15 My question is* If you found out that 16 industrial hygienists in Texaco didn't know that the 17 Aroclors they were purchasing from Monsanto were PCBs, 18 would that cause you, as a Monsanto person responsible 19 for getting out information on safe handling and 20 toxicology, to want to try to find out what had gone 21 wrong and even consider the possibility that what 22 Monsanto was doing wasn't enough? 23 A I don't think so, sir* 24 Q Okay. You would simply assume that was their 25 problem, not your problem? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50454 242 1 MR. SHOEBOTHAHt Mr. Wheeler# do you 2 want to take a quick break? 3 the WITNESSi May I just answer this 4 question? 5 MR, SHOEBQTBAMi Sure, 6 A No# sir, I -- what I expect I would have done, 7 because Alan and I were such good friends# would have 8 been to pick up the telephone and say# "Are you aware 9 that your company is buying Aroclors and using 10 Ar odors?" 11 BY MR, LACEY* 12 Q Okay, I understand that# and -- and I would 13 certainly expect that you would do that. Now# my 14 question isj Would you then try to do a little bit of 15 investigation to figure out why he didn't already know 16 that? 17 A No# sir. 18 Q You wouldn't at all be concerned that these 19 five points in your program of getting information out 20 had failed up to that point in time? 21 A Not as the result of -- of one incidence# which 22 I think you've said "if." 23 Q Well# that -- that brings me back to the -- and 24 do you want to take a break now# or -- 25 A Yeah# please. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50455 243 X Q Let's do. 2 A And clear mythroat. 3 Q Let's do. 4 THE VIDEOTBCHNICIAN: We're Off the 5 record. 6 7 (Recess) 8 9 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN: Okay. We've 10 been off the record for a short break. XI We're now back on the record. The time is X2 10:47 a.m. 13 BY HR. LACEY: 14 Q Do you know who Hr. Sido was, s-i-d-o, in 15 Monsanto? 16 A S-i-d-o? Bob -- Bob Sido? 17 Q Yes. 18 A Yes. He headed up the -- well, originally, 19 he -- I -- I -- I've forgotten where he was originally, 20 but he was one of our representatives in the Washington 21 office: and then he came back to St. Louis and headed up 22 the labeling group, which was in, I guess, the Traffic 23 Department. 24 Q Was Mr. Sido the person that you and 25 Mr. Wheeler worked directly with on making sure that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50456 244 1 labels had the appropriate information from the Medical 2 Department standpoint? 3 A I am Mr. Wheeler. 4 Q I'm sorry. Mr. Kelly. I apologize. Actually# 5 it's Dr. Kelly. Let's start tnat one over again. I've 6 trying to think how to pronounce "sido#* and I'm in 7 trouble. 8 MR. LACEY* Now# offhand -- this is 9 totally off the thing# but I was had 10 a bankruptcy case one time# and I 11 represented a bank. We were going real 12 hard after the -- the debtor# and we had 13 a -- a Disclosure Statement Hearing. 14 And we got up and -- to --> to just 15 make our announcements# and I'd just been 16 handed this pile of financial information 17 I had to go through to -- in order to make 18 the -- and I got up and announced that 1 19 represented the debtor in the case# 20 because I was -- I was thinking about what 21 I was doing) I just wasn't thinking about 22 the -- so don't ~ it's not the first time 23 I've ever blown the formalities. 24 MR. SHOEBOTHAM* well# as long as you 25 were going to represent the debtor in that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50457 245 1 case# you should have made a couple o 2 motions on his behalf* 3 MR* LAC2Y: Well, actually, the 4 debtor didn't like me too well* He wrote 5 a couple of letters to Ben Love about 6 the -- about the way the case was going, 7 so -- we won the case* We finally got it 8 resolved amicably* 9 BY MR. LACEY* 10 Q was Mr* Sido the person with whom you and 11 Dr* Kelly dealt with in trying to get labels and product 12 information to contain the materials that you wanted 13 them to contain about safe handling and toxicology? 14 A Bob Sido; yes, sir* 15 Q Okay; Sido. 16 A Yes, sir* 17 Q Sido; okay* Did Mr*Sido have any role in the 18 actual wording of the information on the labeling? 19 A His role was toprepare or draftlabels for 20 circulation to a number of people; to get comments, 21 corrections, additional information if necessary; and 22 see that the labels were then printed and supplied to 23 the plants that manufactured the product* 24 Q 1 guess I'm trying to find out whether he had a 25 role in selecting the wording, the cautionary wording* NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50458 246 X A He may have drafted some of the material based 2 on previous labels for similar products* But ve always 3 had the opportunity and obligation to make whatever 4 changes we felt were necessary or to ensure that the 5 final copy was in accordance with language which we 6 approved. 7 Q Did the salespeople have any role in the actual 8 language used on the warning labels? 9 A I don't think so, sir* 10 Q You don't recall any situations where the 11 salespeople might suggest that the warning be toned down 12 so as not to adversely affect sales? 13 A X can't think of any, sir* 14 Q You will agree with me, won't you, that the 15 stronger the warning language, the more likely it is to 16 have an adverse impact on the quantity sold* Correct? 17 A That was not our consideration* 18 Q No* That's not my question to you* 19 You can agree with me that that is true, can 20 you not? 21 A I don't think so, sir* 22 Q I see. Can you think of any reason why the 23 salespeople would have any input into what the warning 24 labels said? 25 A 1 would say that they did not have input* I'm NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50459 247 1 sure they were kept informed of the development of the 2 label. At what point in the development, Z don't know. 3 It may well have been only after the label had been 4 approved and printed. 5 Q They wouldn't have any control over what labels 6 went on what products, though? 7 A Not to my knowledge. 8 MR. LACEYi I'll ask the court 9 reporter to mark this as an exhibit in 10 this deposition. 11 12 (Deposition Exhibit Wheeler 1 marked 13 for identification) 14 15 BY MR. LACEY* 16 Q Mr. Wheeler, let me hand you what's been marked 17 as Wheeler Deposition Exhibit 1 and ask you to take a 18 look at that memo (tendering). And 1 apologize for the 19 fact it's not a very good copy. 20 A Well, 1 believe I can make it out. 1 just 21 wanted to check. Is this August 1959? I guess ~ is 22 that the date (tendering)? 23 Q Tnat's what it appears to be to me; August 24 19th, 1959. And there's down here a reference to a memo 25 previous of August 17, 1959 (tendering). NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050460 248 1 A Thank you* 2 (Reviews document*) 3 X can't make out that (indicating) -- 4 Q The name? 5 A Yen, sir* 6 Q P* E. something, hut you're not sure who? 7 A Xt looks like P* E* something* 8 Q Meifiler? 9 A Someth!ng-eisier, X would say. 10 Q X see* 11 A The name does not ring a bell with me* 12 What's this* "Current plant practice is to 13 store all the drugs and in" -- "standard 3 x 5-inch 14 white pressure sensitive labels with black printing are 15 available* " 16 X don't remember that memo, sir* 17 Q Well, let me ask you about that memo for a 18 moment. Who on that memo, as either author or 19 recipient, was a member of the Medical Department? 20 A Dr* Kelly* 21 Q Okay* There are a number of other people 22 referenced on that memo, are there not? 23 A Yea, sir* 24 Q Can you tell me the names of the people and 25 what departments that they were in? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50461 249 1 A I've already told you who Hr* Sido was* 2 Q All right* 3 A don't recognize Sigler# this Reisler or 4 Meisler. 5 Paul Benignus was a development -- was involved 6 in development* 7 Q He was also involved in sales# was he not? 8 A I -- I thinkprobably sales development# sir# 9 rather than -- 10 Q Okay* 11 A ~ rather than sales* 12 q When you say "sales development#" what is that? 13 A I -- I think I told you yesterday# sir# that 14 the standard practice was that Research would develop 15 new materials* 16 There would be some object -- the object -- the 17 object of the research was obviously to provide more and 18 better and different products* The research might be 19 related to possible plasticizer use# or a better fluid 20 for dielectrics# or what have you* 21 There would be certain tests done within the 22 company# and I suspect by prospective customers on very 23 limited quantities* And we would run acute toxicity 24 studies. 25 If there appeared to be commercial interest in NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50462 250 1 the product, then the product would be essentially 2 assigned to the development personnel to contact 3 potential users and discuss with them in detail the 4 benefits of the fluid, the fire protection, either a 5 change in the dielectric content, the difference in 6 physical and chemical characteristics, et cetera. 7 And Benignus, Z think, would fit into that 8 category. 9 Q So he was sort of in a customer 10 development/sales function? 11 A Use development. 12 Q What X mean is that -- that when you talk about 13 sales development, you're talking about somebody who is 14 going out and trying to have new customers so Monsanto 15 can be able to sell more of that product. Correct? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q Okay. You can go ahead and identify the other 18 people, if you can. 19 A The name Gibson rings a bell, but I don't know 20 what his function was. And Dr. Kelly. 21 Q Where it says now Dr. Kelly, that's R. -- what 22 does it say? R. E. Kelly? 23 A R. -- R. K. Kelly. 24 Q R. K. Kelly? 25 A It looks like a K. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50463 251 1 Q Well#is that section number -- it gives the a section numberin the plant# doesn't it# where he is 3 located? 4 A Well, this -- it*s preceded by "Dr* R." 5 Something "Kelly# and I -- I -- 6 Q was Emmet Kelly the only Dr. Kelly there at 7 Monsanto? 8 A Yes# sir. And ~ and this A-209 designation 9 would indicate the mail drop tor Dr. Kelly. 10 Q Okay. So that's just a typing error. 11 A Yeah. 12 Q All right. 13 A Newcombe# I believe# was in sales. 14 Bob Pohl was -- I -- I couldn't remember this 15 yesterday# but he was a plant manager at Anniston tor 16 some period of time. 17 Q Z see. 18 A Potter was obviously at the Krummrich plant. 19 I -- x don't know what his function was. 20 S. E. Sancey# S-a-n-c-e-y -- I don't recall 21 that name. 22 q All right. Now# that memo was written by 23 Mr. -- I'm going to try to get it right -- Sido? 24 A Sido. 25 Q Sido. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50464 252 1 A S-e-e-d-o, phonetically* a Q Okay; Mr* Sido* 3 A Or s-e-a, with the ocean* 4 Q Okay; Mr* Sido. Maybe that'll help me 5 remember* It's like the ocean* 6 That memo was written by Mr* Sido* Correct? 7 A Yes* sir* It's over his signature* 8 Q And it deals with the labeling that is supposed 9 to go on Aroclor products* Correct? XO A Yes, sir. IX Q And in that memo Mr* Sido is talking about X2 Sales having agreed to let certain particular cautionary 13 information go on products, is he not? X4 A Yes, sir* 15 Q And that, in fact, was the way that Monsanto 16 labeling worked, wasn't it? 17 A Mot generally, sir; no* X8 Q So this memo is example of an exception to the 19 rule, instead of the rule? 20 A To my knowledge, because it refers to Inerteen, 21 which was not a Monsanto trademark product* 1 believe 22 it was a ttestinghouse trademark product* 23 Q But Inerteen was manufactured byMonsanto, 24 wasn't it? 25 A I'm not positive that we made the formulation* NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50465 253 X They used Monsanto's polychlorinated biphenyl, yes* 2 Q Yes* 3 Mow, that memo makes it very clear that at 4 least with regard to these warning labels that are 5 discussed in that memo, that the Sales Department had 6 input in a decision-making process over what label went 7 on the PCB products discussed in that memo, doesn't it? 8 A I would say they did not have the final 9 decision over what went on the label* XO Q They certainly had substantial input, didn't XX they? X2 A They had some input, particularlybecause they 13 were dealing with a label for a customer's product* X4 Q Well, they didn't -- 15 A And the chief -- the chief contact between 1$ Monsanto and the customer would either be Paul Benignus 17 or -- or sales representatives* 18 Q Well, actually, they were dealing with a label 19 that was going to go on products that Monsanto sold to 20 customers, weren't they? 21 A If we sold Znerteen as such, sir* 22 Q Well, there are another list of products that 23 were sold there besides Xnerteen, aren't there, that 24 memo dealt with? 25 A Zt says "PYRANOLS," yes, sir* NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50466 254 1 Q And there are others listed# aren't there# 2 besides Inerteen and Pyranols? 3 A It says, "AROCLORS - PYRANOLS* and -- and 4 "INERTEBNS." 5 Q That's all the PC3 products that Monsanto made# 6 isn't it? 7 A Well# Z think the Aroclors was -- is referenced 8 here because they were in the Pyranols and Inerteens. 9 Q Well# let me see the memo for just a second. 10 A (Tendering.) XI Q Doesn't the memo say -- and we can -- maybe I 12 can come over and we can look at it together. You 13 can -- you can sit there. I'll --* 14 A I pulled this. 15 Q Uh-oh. Let me ~- do you want me to help you 16 there? Let's see. It's under --- caught under your 17 foot. That's what our problem is. 18 A Oh. I'm sorry. 19 Q Okay. 20 The first sentence of the memo says# "Sales 21 have agreed#" and then it references "(Mr. Paul 22 Benignus)" -- "to use the same Caution Statement for all 23 AROCLOR# PYRANOL# and INERTEEN containers." Isn't that 24 correct? 25 A Yes# sir. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50467 255 ) 1 Q So this memo deals with a statement that went \ 2 on all the PCB products that Monsanto was shipping out, 3 whether they went under the name Aroclor, Pyranol, or 4 Inerteen. Correct? 5 A I believe that's so. And the reason is my 6 recollection is that about this time there were state 7 laws being developed that said products containing 8 chlorinated hydrocarbons should so state. 9 And this developed because of research efforts 10 in the Los Angeles smog situation that indicated 11 chlorinated hydrocarbons played a role in the 12 development of the smog. 13 And I -- I suspect that in this case 14 Westinghouse said, "what are we going to do to comply 15 with the laws that are developing that indie- -- that 16 mandate that we must say they contain chlorinated 17 hydrocarbon?" 18 Q Hell, let me just mate sure Z understand. 19 It -- it's your understanding that this memo is 20 discussing labels that you were making for your 21 customers to put on their products that they sold to 22 third parties? 23 A In the case of the Xnerteen, certainly. I -- 24 I -- I'm -- I can't recall whether Pyranol was a GE 25 trademark or not. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50468 256 1 Q I -- I believe Pyranol was a GE trademark. 2 Well, let me make sure 1 understand this. Is 3 it your testimony that people at Monsanto decided what 4 information should be on the labels that were put on the 5 products sold by GE and Westinghouse that contained 6 PCBs? 7 A Yea, at their request. 8 Q z see. So you assumed that responsibility for 9 them and told them what to put on there? 10 A In this case. But X think, sir, you will find 11 that all of the other comments there are -- are standard 12 for PCB-containing materials, the only difference being 13 that the "Contains Chlorinated Hydrocarbons" was a new 14 statement. 15 Q And -- and with regard to that new statement, 16 the only reason Monsanto started putting that statement 17 on its PCB products is because State law in California 18 required you to do so. Correct? 19 MR. SHOEBOTHAHt Xf you know, 20 Mr. wheeler, but please don't speculate on 21 something like that that goes back to the 22 late 1950's. 23 A Well, my recollection is that California was 24 not the only state that was proposing such legislation. 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50469 257 1 BY MR. LACSYt 2 Q Okay. So there were states, California and 3 others, that were patting forward legislation that 4 required listing hydrocar** -- chlorinated hydrocarbons 5 on the label? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q And Monsanto changed its labels in response to 8 that legislation. Correct? $ A Yes, sir. 10 Q And but for that legislation, Monsanto would 11 not have changed its labels. Correct? 12 A Not to use the words "chlorinated 13 hydrocarbons," because we were using the "chlorinated 14 biphenyls" terminology. 15 Q Okay. Now, at least with regard to this label 16 that was developed in response to this state 17 legislation, the Sales Department, and in particular 18 Mr. Benignus, had a role in deciding whether to use this 19 label on all PCB products, did he not?? 20 A I'm not sure that's the case. 21 Q Nell, let me hand you Wneeler Exhibit No. 1 22 again, and it says very clearly (tendering) -- and this 23 is Mr. Sido who's responsible for labeling at Monsanto. 24 Correct? Am I correct this is Mr. Sido's memo? 25 A Has agreed -- it says that Mr. Benignus has NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050470 258 1 agreed to use the following language; yes, sir* 2 Q So, clearly. Hr. Sido is indicating that the 3 question had been put to Hr. Benignus, "Is it agreeable 4 to use this label on all these products?" And he 5 finally agreed, "Yes, we'll use it on all these 6 products* 7 A I suspect, sir, the reverse is true; that 8 Hr. Benignus was contacted by the -- the Inerteen and 9 pyranol folks and said, "What are we going to do to 10 comply with the law? Would -- would you agree that IX the -- the simple wording, 'Cautions Contains 12 Chlorinated Hydrocarbons,' would be adequate?" 13 And I -- from this, I would say Hr. Benignus 14 agreed on the basis that the -- the producers of Pyranol 15 and Inerteen agreed (tendering). 16 Q X see. In any event. Hr. Benignus had a role 17 to play in deciding what cautionary statements went on 18 the warning labels. Correct? 19 HE. SHOEBOTHAMs In this particular 20 instance? 21 HR. LACEY* Yes, in this particular 22 instance. 23 A In this instance, yes. 24 BY HR. LACEY* 25 Q And this is the same warning label that was NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50471 259 1 used by Monsanto all the way from 1959 up until around 2 1970# isn't it? 3 A 1 don't know whether -- whether there were 4 other changes or not# sir* 5 Q I see* 6 Let me show you what was marked as Jones 7 Deposition Exhibit Mo* 1 (tendering) and ask you if you 8 recognize that as warning labels or stickers# whatever 9 you call them -- product labels -- used by Monsanto. 10 A (Reviews document*) 11 X don't recall this particular memo* X 12 would -- X would not have expected that ~~ 13 Q Would not have expected what? 14 A Well# looking at the date# X -- I -- again# 15 X assume this relates to the change because of the 16 mandatory use of declaration of chlorinated 17 hydrocarbons# even though on the front we said 18 chlorinated* ~ "polychlorinated biphenyls** 19 Q Okay* Well# do -- do these labels# the first 20 page and the second page of Jones Exhibit No* 1# comport 21 with your recollection about the labeling used by 22 Monsanto on its PCB productsj and do the dates on the 23 back correspond to your recollecton of when these labels 24 started in use (tendering)? 25 A I don't know when the labels were -- when NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50472 260 X the -- this particular label was originally used. 2 Q Well, is there anything about those labels and 3 the dating of them given on the back that you find to be 4 inconsistent with your recollection of labeling and when 5 it was used? 6 HR. SHOEBOTEAHi Hr. Wheeler, please 7 don,t feel compelled to speculate about 8 the labels. You've already told Hr. Lacey 9 that you don't remember these particular 10 labels and you're not sure about the 11 dates. 12 BY HR. LACEYI 13 Q My question to you ist Are they inconsistent? 14 Zs there something that jumps out at you as being wrong 15 about the labels or the dating given on the back? 16 A Mo, sir. 17 Q Okay. 18 A (Tendering.) 19 Q Mow, when labels were changed at Monsanto, was 20 it generally in response to either legislative action or 21 proposed legislative action? 22 A The only situation that I can recall is the use 23 of the words "chlorinated hydrocarbons," which we have 24 discussed. 25 Q Well, let me see if I understand that. Mow, NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50473 261 1 let me just tell you that with regard to Jones 2 Deposition Exhibit No. 1, Warren Jones -- who was 3 retained by Monsanto in this case to give testimony, and 4 he was provided with this document by Monsanto -- has 5 testified that what he was told by the Monsanto people 6 who came -- the lawyers who came to visit him and 7 provided this material was that the dates on the back o 8 these exhibits show when these things went into use. 9 And his testimony was that the first page of 10 Jones Exhibit No. 1, which states, "This package 11 contains Paraclor, a chlorinated diphenyl technical. 12 Avoid repeated contact with skin and inhalation of the 13 fumes and dust," was a label that he understands from 14 what Monsanto told him was in use sometime prior to May 15 of 1947. 16 Is there anything about Mr. Jones' testimony in 17 that regard that's inconsistent with your recollection? 18 A Only that X would believe that under the -- the 19 material under your thumb at the top of the additional 20 page was also part of the label. 21 Q Well, what Mr. Jones testified that this second 22 page was an add-on sticker that went into use in 23 accordance with the information on the back, a 24 supplemental stick-on used with the first page beginning 25 in 1959. Is that your recollection? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50474 26 2 1 A No, sir* 2 Q X see* Well, isn't it a fact that the second 3 page of Jones Exhibit No* 1, this supplemental stick-on 4 (tendering), is, in fact, the exact same label that is 5 referred to in Nr* Side's memo that's been marked as 6 Wheeler Deposition Exhibit No* 1? And I'll hand you 7 Wheeler Deposition Exhibit No* 1 so you can compare the 8 language (tendering) 9 While you're comparing that, we'll stop so that 10 our technician can change the tape for us* 11 A Okay* 12 13 (Recess) 14 15 THE VIDEOTECHNICIANt We're back on 16 the record after a tape change* The time 17 is now 1116 a.a. 18 BY MR* LACEYt 19 Q Mr* Wheeler, have you had a chance to review 20 that second page of Jones Deposition Exhibit No* 1, 21 which is labeled on the back as the 1959 Supplemental 22 stick-on, with the language in Mr* Sido's memo of 1959, 23 which is Exhibit No* 1 to your deposition? 24 A Yes, sir* 25 Q Doesn't it appear that the language that NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50475 263 X Hr. Sido In his memo indicated bad been approved by 2 Hr. Benignus is tbe language that went on the 3 supplemeutal stick-on label? 4 A This section (indicating) appears to be word 5 for word this section in the Sido memo (indicating). 6 Q Ub-huh. When you say "this section," you mean 7 the -- the section at the top that says "Caution"? 8 A On the exhibit; yes, sir (indicating) I -- 9 I -- is there any difference between these two? 10 Q I don't think so, but please feel free -- I 11 think those are two different labels, one large and one 12 small in sise. 13 A They appear to be identical. 14 Q Okay. So, in fact, the supplemental stick-on 15 that Honsanto started using in 1959, in accordance with 16 Hr. Sido's memo, was the one that had been approved by 17 Mr. Benignus and the salespeople for all these products. 18 Correct? 19 HR. SHOEBOTHAM* Hr. Wheeler, if you 20 don't have some personal knowledge of 21 that, you're not required to speculate as 22 to it. 23 A My response would be speculative. 24 BY HR, LACEYt 25 Q Well, was the Medical Department responsible NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50476 264 X for these labels and all these cautionary statements? 2 A Yes, sir* 3 Q 1 mean, when we get right down to it, the 4 second page of Jones Sxhibit Ho* 1, there isn't anything 5 on there that wouldn't be the responsibility of the 6 Medical Department (tendering) 7 A That's right, sir (tendering) 8 Q Okay* And that meant you and Dr* Kelly, did it 9 not? XO A Yes, sir* IX Q And X understood youto saythat you and X2 Dr* Kelly pretty much discussed in your business back 13 and forth what you did so that both of you were familiar X4 with it* 15 A Yes, sir, although X don't recall this specific 16 instance* 17 g X see* Okay* 18 Here you still working with the labeling of 19 products in the 1970's, or had you basically left that 20 area to others? 21 A X don't recall thedates that the 22 responsibility was taken over by other -- by anybody 23 other than Dr* Kelly* My last recollection of 24 involvement in labeling related to the additions to the 25 PCB labels in relation to the potential environmental NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50477 26 5 1 disposal* 2 Q And -- and what led to those changes? 3 A We11, there was evidence that was being 4 developed originally in -- in Sweden that indicated that 5 by very, very refined analytical techniques, unknown 6 peaks in gas chromatograph mass spectrometry chemistry 7 appeared to be some of the isomers of the PCBs* 8 Q And Monsanto started being pressured by 9 environmental groups to do something to keep that 10 material from continuing to get into the environment* 11 Is that correct? 12 A Monsanto undertook a program to determine 13 the -- the facts and acted unilaterally to provide any 14 information and data, including even more sensitive 15 analytical techniques, to anybody that was involved in 16 the area* 17 We provided samples to hundreds of people, and 18 ultimately discontinued the production of those uses 19 where the eventual disposition under conditions that 20 could lead to environmental addition without pressure 21 from environmental groups* 22 Q So it's your testimony that Monsanto's 23 limitation of sales, additional labeling information, 24 and the like, was not in response to any pressure from 25 environmental groups? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50478 266 1 A I think that's the case# sir* 2 Q Do you remember a Congressman named Congressman 3 Ryan? 4 A Yes# sir* 5 Q Zn fact# Congressman Ryan had introduced 6 proposed legislation as early as 1971 to ban PCBs 7 entirely# had he not? 8 A Yes# sir* 9 Q And part of Monsanto's action with regard to 10 PCBs was a response to proposed legislation to ban them 11 entirely# was it not? 12 A I beg your pardon? 13 Q Part of Monsanto's action in limiting the sales 14 of PCBs for certain uses# and so on and so forth# 15 changing the labeling with regard to environmental 16 hazards and handling# was in response to legislation 17 proposed by Congressman Ryan# was it not? 18 A I think to a minordegree* 19 Q Just like Monsanto changed its labeling in 1959 20 in response to legislation proposed by California and 21 other states* Isn't that true? 22 A The situations were not similarj because in the 23 *59 instance there was legislation not only proposed# 24 but Z believe enacted* 25 Q And in Congressman Ryan's case# it was only NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50479 267 1 proposed and hadn't yet passed? 2 A I'm not sure it was even considered in the -- 3 in the -- in the Congress* 4 Q z see* Monsanto was strenuously opposed to 5 Congressman Ryan's legislation, was it not? 6 A X can't answer that* 7 Q Monsanto made a substantial public relations 8 effort to suggest that Congressman Ryan's legislation 9 was not necessary, did it not? 10 A X believe it did, in terms of ensuring that 11 where no substitutes existed -- and I'm speaking of the 12 dielectric fluids and transformer fluids -- the safety 13 of the fluids in preventing fires, loss of life, took 14 precedent over the possibility that these materials were 15 getting into the environment from those uses* 16 And, in fact, their -- their prescribed -- 17 what's the word X want for Government? -- specifications 18 in Government contracts that demanded the use of PCBs* 19 An example X was told was the use of floor tile 20 aboardship in the United States Navy* Any vinyl floor 21 tile had to be plasticized with PCBs to add fire 22 resistance and eliminate the possibility of problems 23 from that use* 24 More importantly, X was told that there were 25 building codes around the world -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050480 26 8 X Q You said you were told* Is this all hearsay to 2 you? You just were told; you don't know anything about 3 that personally/ do you? 4 MR. SHOEBOTHAHi Well# let's let 5 Mr* Wheeler finish his answer# Mr* Lacey* 6 MR* LACEYi I'm going to object to 7 the responsiveness of the entire answer 8 when he gets through* 9 MR. SHOEBOTHAMs Well, I think the 10 answer -- XI MR* LACEYs And I'm also going to 12 object on the grounds that it's now 13 hearsay* 14 MR, SHOEBOTHAMs Well# Z think the 15 answer is responsive* 16 MR. LACEYs All right* 17 MR* SHOEBOTHAMs And I would 18 appreciate your not interrupting the 19 witness* 20 A It's more than hearsay# sir# in that there was 21 an inter-Governmental task force organized that declared 22 the immediate phase-out of the use of PCBs in 23 transformers and capacitors that would not only upset 24 tne whole economic system# but make the manufacture of 23 needed transformers and dielectrics with fire-resistant NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50481 26 9 1 characteristics impossible# because there was no 2 subsubstitute, 3 BY MR, LACEYf 4 Q Are you through with your answer? 5 A I beg your pardon? 6 Q Are you through with your answer? 7 A Yes# sir, 8 HR, LACEYi I'm going to object to 9 the responsiveness o the entire answer. 10 BY HR, LACEY* 11 Q Hr, Wheeler# I didn't ask you tor the public 12 relations pitch that Monsanto gave. I simply want to 13 establish that Monsanto did engage in an extensive 14 public relations campaign by going out on public 15 speaking engagements# making technical presentations# 16 and the like# in opposition to the ban proposed by 17 Congressman Ryan on PCBs, Isn't that correct? 18 A I'm not sure it is# sir, 19 Q Do you recall appearing on WHBC Mews in March 20 or April of 1970 with Frank McGee# Dr. Frank Field# 21 Congressman Ryan# and Mr, Papageorge? 22 A Z recall the interview. It was with 23 Mr, Fields# not with Ryan, 24 Q I see. So you don't recall appearing on - 25 maybe juxtaposed with * on that program where -- where NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50482 270 1 you were interviewed on that program with Congressman 2 Ryan* Mr* Papageorge, Dr# Field, Frank McGee? 3 A No, sir. The interview was with Dr* Frank 4 Field* The only people who were interviewed were Elmer 5 Wheeler and Bill Papageorge. 6 Q see* 7 A X learned that afterwards that although tne 8 interview took a number of minutes to get an acceptable 9 tape, the coverage on Mr* Fields' NBC broadcast that 10 evening -- Z guess the 7Q0 o'clock news -- included 11 about 20 seconds of Mr* Wheeler* 12 And X believe it was the next day that X got a 13 call from Alan Dooley of Texaco Company, who said he'd 14 reached home in Connecticut and was watching the evening 15 news when all of a sudden Elmer Wheeler appeared on the 16 screen* 17 Q Did they -- did they do you justice on that 18 appearance? 19 A X never saw it, sir. 20 MR. SHOEBOTHAMs One question, 21 Mr* Wheeler, that Mr* Lacey posed to you 22 had to do with Congressman Ryan being 23 involved in the interview* X understand 24 he was not actually present when you and 25 Mr* Papageorge were there; but do you know NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50483 271 1 whether he had some remarks on the same 2 program, as well, that might have been 3 edited in or taped in or something? 4 THE WITNESS* I don't know, 5 A What happened was that Congressman Ryan had 6 announced a press conference, and Frank Fields called 7 our public relations representative in New York and 8 offered us the opportunity to present our views of what 9 he thought was going to be a -- statements by Mr. Ryan 10 that might be exaggerated or might, in fact, not be 11 true. 12 BY MR. LACEY* 13 Q X see. Well, let me ask about this. This 14 happened in the spring of 1970, did if not? 15 A 1 think you referenced the date, sir. I 16 believe that's right. 17 Q Okay. That's your recollection, is it not? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And it was in the spring of 1970 that 20 Congressman Ryan began the efforts to ban the use of 21 PCBs, was it not? 22 A I beg your pardon? He -- he began to -- 23 Q The efforts to try to ban the use of PCBs, did 24 he not? 25 A I believe that's right. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50484 272 1 Q And, of course, the vehicle he used was to try 2 to get a law enacted to accomplish that. 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q And isn't it a fact that the actions that 5 Monsanto toot, limiting tne uses of PCBs for which it 6 would sell PCBs, were in response to the efforts of 7 Congressman Ryan to ban the use of PCBs in their 8 entirety? 9 MR. SHOEBOTHAMx Objection. The 10 question has been a3ked and answered. 11 MR. LACEYi I don't believe it has 12 been answered. 13 MR. SHOEBOTHAMx I believe it was. 14 BY MR. LACEY * 15 Q You can answer the question. 16 A X think X told you X don't think that that was 17 a major factor. 18 Q X see. 19 A The company had been working onsubstitute 20 products for months before Mr. Ryan appeared on the 21 scene. 22 Q Well, the company didn't actually stop selling 23 PCBs to anybody for any use until after Congressman Ryan 24 had sought publicly on national TV to institute an 25 effort to ban PCBs in their entirety, did it? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50485 273 X A Z don't know that Me* Ryan was ever on national 2 TV* 3 Q X see* Well# let's -- without regard to the TV 4 issuer it was not until ater Congressman Ryan had his 5 press conference that you referred tor and started his 6 efforts to try to ban the use of PCSs in their entirety# 7 that Monsanto actually started restricting the sales of 8 PCSs# was it? 9 A I've forgotten the date# sir# that Monsanto -- 10 Q I see* IX A -- took their action* X2 Q X see* Okay. 13 Let me show you Jones Deposition Exhibits 31# X4 32# and 33* These are labels that speak to Xnterteen or 15 Xnerteen* I'm not sure how you pronounce it* Let me 16 ask you to review those# just briefly (tendering)* 17 A I -- I think it's Xnerteen. 18 Q Xnerteen? 19 A Inerteen -20 Q Okay* 21 A --I believe# is the pronunciation* 22 Q All right* 23 A (Reviews documents*) I'm trying to find a date 24 on here* 25 Q All right. X believe it's right on the back. NELLMCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50486 274 1 Unfortunately, these labels were not dated by Monsanto 2 when they went out, but we have from Mr* -- from 2 Dr* Jones the testimony the dates on the back were 4 represented to him by Monsanto representatives to be the 5 dates that those labels were used* 6 A Must I read each of them? Are the comments 7 exact? 8 Q Well, really, 1 have -- I have a more general 9 question* From those labels it(s very clear, is it not, 10 that Monsanto was selling Inerteen? 11 A It says, sir, "Made for Westinghouse Electric 12 Corporation." 13 Q But the label has the big "M" for "Monsanto* on 14 it, doesn*t it? 15 A Yes, sir* 18 Q And it shows it went on the container that 17 Monsanto was sending out with Inerteen in it, doesn't 18 it? 19 A Yes, sir* 20 Q So it wasn't just that Monsanto was 21 manufacturing PCBs that they sold to Westinghouse, which 22 then turned it into Inerteen* it was that Monsanto 23 itself was manufacturing and selling Inerteen* 24 A I -- I would prefer the word "blending** I 25 don't think there was any chemical reaction between the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50487 275 1 bichlorinated biphenyls and the other materials* 2 Q Okay* Well, let me ask it a different way, 3 then* Monsanto manufactured all the component parts of 4 Inerteen and blended it together into the final product 5 and then sold it? 6 A That's not my understanding, sir* 7 Q Well, what is your understanding? 8 A That the chlorobenzenes that were used were 9 purchased, not manufactured by Monsanto* 10 Q Z see* Monsanto manufactured the PC3 component 11 of Inerteen -- 12 A Yes, sir* 13 Q -- blended in other products it purchased from 14 chemical companies, and then sold it under tneInerteen 15 name? 16 A To the specifications of Westinghousei yes, 17 sir* 18 Q And so if we go back to Mr. Sido's memo that 19 we've previously looked at, which has been marked as 20 Wheeler Deposition Exhibit Wo* 1, when the caution talks 21 about going on Aroclors, Inerteens, and Pyranols, it's 22 talking about going on products that were manufactured 23 and sold by Monsanto* Correct? 24 A Yes, sir* 25 Q All right* NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50488 276 1 A 1 don't recall ever seeing these labels# sir. 2 I don't Know what the -- what the X -- I don't recall 3 ever having seen that on a Monsanto label (tendering) 4 Q Okay. Well# who in the Medical Department was S responsible or these labels at this time? 6 A 1971? 7 Q Yes. 8 A 1 presume X was. 9 0 But you don't recall seeing them? 10 A Mo# sir. 11 Q Do you suppose maybe the Sales Department was 12 still having some input into what the labels said and 13 how they looked? 14 A Z can't say whether the normal procedure of 15 preparing labels were sent to the Sales Department for 16 comments. 17 MR. SHOEBOTHAMt Mr. Wheeler# 18 Dr. Kelly was still in the Medical 19 Department as of 1971# wasn't he? 20 THE WITNESS I Yes# Sir. 21 MR. LACEY; Are you through with your 22 cross-exami nation? 23 MR. SHOESOTHAM* I -- I -- do you 24 want me to ask some more questions. 25 MR. LACEY* Mo. I really would NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50489 277 1 prefer to do my own examination, and you 2 can do yours when I get through* 3 MR. SHOEBOTHAM* Well, I -- 1 4 appreciate that* 5 BY HR* LACEYl 6 Q Let rae hand you a document, 16731 through 7 18737, and ask if you've seen that before (tendering)* 8 A Do you know the date of this, sir? 9 Q My question to you iss Have you ever seen it 10 before? 11 A Z don't recall seeing it as such, sir* 12 0 I see* This is a document that deals with the 13 toxicology and safe handling of Monsanto Aroclor, is it 14 not? 15 A That's the title of it; yes, sir* 16 Q Documents that dealt with that topic were to be 17 generated and approved by the Medical Department of 18 Monsanto, were they not? 19 A I'm not sure the word "generated" is right, 20 because I think that indicates that we proposed the -- 21 the document; whereas, it's more likely that somebody 22 proposed that we needed a document, and then the Medical 23 Department proceeded to participate in the development 24 of it* 25 Q Okay* Well, then the way it worked, the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50490 278 1 Medical Department itself didn't necessarily propose 2 that such a document might be needed, but would, after 3 the proposal was made, be involved in generating it* 4 Correct? 5 A 0h 6 Q What's the "Oh" about? Is that an answer to my 7 question, or -- 8 A No, sir, but I think it relates to an earlier 9 question* 10 Q All right* What's that? 11 A You asked if I'd seen this document, and I said 12 I didn't recall seeing it} and perhaps the reason is 13 that this was -- according to this, this was developed 14 at -- at Monsanto Europe* 15 Q How are you able to tell that? 16 A Well, it would appear here it says, "Monsanto 17 House, number, Victoria Street, London, South Wales*" 16 Q And -- and what does that tell you about the 19 document, sir? 20 A Well, I would think it -- it -- it means that 21 it was generated in Great Britain. 22 Q Was the Medical Department responsible for the 23 information distributed in Great Britain about the 24 toxicology and safe handling of PCBs? 25 A Not routinely, sir* NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50491 27 9 1 Q So the people in Europe* then* who worked for 2 Monsanto were free to develop their own information 3 about the toxicology and safe handling of PCEs; and it 4 might be different than that supplied in the United 5 States? 6 A I believe that's correct* sir* 7 Q Okay* Zs -- let me ask you to review that 3 document and tell me if there's anything in that 9 document that you believe is factually incorrect* 10 A This is going to take some time* sir* 11 MR* SHOEBOTHAM* Why don't we go off 12 camera and give him an opportunity to - 13 THE WITNESS* I -- I never took Speed 14 Reading* 15 MR* LACEY* Well* do you want a take 16 an early lunch break? Do you want to save 17 this to the lunch break? I'm not quite 18 sure how to -- 19 MR. SHOEBOTHAM* Why don't we -- why 20 don't we go off camera and just take a 21 break? It's a little early for a lunch 22 break* 23 MR* LACEY* Okay* That's fine* 24 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN* We're Off the 25 record* NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50492 280 1 (Recess) 2 3 THE VIDEOTECHNICIANI Okay* We've 4 been off the record tor a short break* 5 We*re now back on the record. The time is 6 12s14 p.a. 7 BY MR. LACEYs 8 Q Mr. Wheeler, have you had a chance to review 9 this document on the toxicology and safe handling o 10 Monsanto Aroclor# Document 18731 through 18737? 11 A Let's see* 13733 through -37# did you say? 12 Q -31f the first page# if you'll flip back. I 13 just numbered it -- 14 A Oh# the first page -- IS Q -- and there's still a -- 16 A Yeah. Yeah* Oh# the first page -- 17 Q There's still one more page* 18 A Oh# I'm sorry* Yes# sir; yes# sir* 19 Q Have you had a chance to review it? 20 A Yes# sir. 21 Q Do you find anything in there with which you 22 disagree? 23 A Mo# sir* 24 Q So# then# in terms of the statements contained 25 about# for example# precautions in the use of Aroclors NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50493 281 1 and the toxicology of Aroclors, you would find all of 2 those things to be appropriate statements? 3 A X would say they were consistent with the type 4 of document that we would have prepared in -- in 5 St, Louis, for the most part; yes, sir, 6 Q Now, did you ever have -- well, strike that. 7 Was this document used in the United States? 8 A I don't know, sir, I've never seen it before, 9 Q To your knowledge, was it used in the United 10 States? 11 A No, sir, 12 Q You've indicated you think that this document 13 was generated in England? 14 A Yes, sir, 15 Q Did, to your knowledge, Monsanto have a 16 document like this on toxicology and safe handling that 17 it distributed in the United States? 18 A X believe we did, sir, 19 Q A document which dealt only with the subject of 20 toxicology and safe handling? 21 A I'm not sure that's the case sir, 22 Q Well, that's what X was really asking about, 23 A I'm -- I'm sorry, I -- X don't recall, 24 Q And this document is one that is limited solely 25 to toxicology and safe handling, is it not? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50494 282 1 A 1 beg your pardon? 2 Q This particular document# 18731 through -737# 3 is limited solely to the toxicology and safe handling of 4 Aroclors, is it not? 5 A Yes# sir. 6 Q And it is the type of document that would be 7 very suitable for distribution to Industrial Hygiene# 8 Toxicology# and Medical Departments of customers that 9 bought PCBs from Monsanto# would it not? 10 A If they did not receive other documents that 11 had the similar information. 12 Q Well# no. My -- my question isx This type of 13 document would be very suitable for distribution to 14 those sorts of people# would it not? 15 A It would convey informationperhaps in a 16 different form than we did -- did prepare -- did provide 17 it to people. 18 Q Well# again# that's not my question. 19 I'm just trying to find out if there's anything 20 about this document that makes it not suitable for 21 distribution to customers# industrial hygienists# 22 toxicologists, and Medical Departments. 23 A I don't see any. 24 Q Okay. And as a document that dealt solely with 25 toxicology and safe handling# that's the specific NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50495 283 1 information that an industrial hygienist or a 2 toxicologist or a medical officer of a customer would 3 want to look at. Correct? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q He wouldn't he particularly interested in 6 details of the types of plasticizers it could go into or 7 anything like that, would he? 8 A That -- that's not quite true, sir, because --9 Q I see. 10 A -- if they were going into plasticizers, they 11 certainly would be interested in what the end use of the 12 plast- -- of what the end use of the product was. 13 Q And that's because industrial hygienists have a 14 responsibility to know what the end uses of their 15 products are? 16 A Z think that's correct)yes, sir. 17 Q And to take those end uses into account in 18 preparing any warnings or directions that might go on 19 those products. Correct? 20 A Z can't say, sir, where the end of that 21 respoasibility lie. 22 Q But, certainly, some of the responsibility, as 23 I understand your testimony, lies with the industrial 24 hygienist and the Medical Department to know about end 25 uses and to have appropriate warnings and instructions NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50496 234 1 to protect people who are end users. Correct? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q Now, as far as you know, all of the United 4 States literature on toxicology and safe handling of 5 PCBs was contained in -- to the extent they were 6 Technical Bulletins like this -- in Technical Bulletins 7 that had much other information besides toxicology and 3 safe handling, was it not? 9 A Z can't recall, sir, whether there was an 10 equivalent booklet on just toxicology and safe handling 11 prepared for U. S. distribution. 12 Q you do remember many Technical Bulletins that 13 covered many other topics, though, besides just 14 toxicology and safe handling? 15 A Oh, yes, sir. 16 0 And you do not recall, do you, any Technical 17 Bulletins that contained other information in addition 18 to toxicology and safe handling having as aiuch detail as 19 Document 18731 through 18737 had on toxicology and safe 20 handling, do you? 21 A I don't recall that there was such a bulletin. 22 Q Okay. Your recollection today is that you 23 don't recall one. Correct? 24 A That's right. 25 Q And, of course, if you had a bulletin tnat had NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50497 285 1 the toxicology and safe-handling information buried i 2 somewhere in it# it woiild not be as easy a reference for 3 an industrial hygienist or a toxicologist or a medical 4 officer as a single-purpose bulletin containing all that 3 information in one ready reference, would it? 6 A Certainly, a bulletin like this would highlight 7 tne data that were summarized in other bulletins. 8 Q Okay. And, if you will, turn with me to the 9 page that has the number 18734 on it. 10 THE WITNESSi Do you want to look at 11 this, John? 12 HR. SH0E30THAM* Certainly. 13 A I'm open to that page, sir. 14 By HR. LACEYI 15 Q And do you see the section that talks about 16 precautions? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q Note at the very lastportion of thatsection 19 there are two lines that are in ail capitalization. 20 Correct? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q The main section is not in allcaps, is it? 23 A Ho, sir. 24 Q And at the end it says in all caps, "YOU HAVE 25 READ THIS." Now, that is designed for the person that's NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50498 286 1 actually seeing the bulletin to catch his attention that 2 he's read this material on precautions* Correct? 3 A Yes, sir* 4 Q And then it asks the question, "DOES THE UAN OH 5 THE JOB KNOW HOW TO HANDLE THESE PRODUCTS?" Is that 6 correct? 7 A Yes, sir* 8 Q The point o that being in all caps there and 9 with that question is to convey to the industrial 10 hygienist or medical officer or toxicologist who's 11 reading this type of bulletin the importance of getting 12 the information he's just read about precautions down to 13 the men in his plant who are actually working with the 14 product* Isn't that correct? IS A Zn Great Britain, yes, sir* 16 Q Well, that's something that's important 17 wherever the medical person or the industrial hygienist 18 may be to emphasize to him the importance of getting the 19 precautionary information to the people who are actually 20 working with.the product* 21 A I don't know, sir* The capacity or -- excuse 22 me -- the expertise of the people in our ~ in the 23 customer's plants for the Great Britain production -- I 24 can't -- I don't know the purpose that they prepared 25 this bulletin* NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50499 287 1 I feel very strongly that as far as the United 2 States was concerned, our efforts in presenting 3 precautionary information and warnings were adequate. 4 Q Well, that's not my question to you, 5 Mr* Wheeler* 6 ME* LACEY* And 1 object to the 7 responsiveness of that answer* 8 BY MR* LACEY* 9 Q My question to you is* It is important that 10 the industrial hygienist, the toxicologist, or the 11 medical officer make sure that the precautionary 12 information he's aware of with regard to products that 13 his workers are going to he handling actually gets to 14 the workmen and is put in use. Isn't that correct? 15 A I would think soi yes, sir* 16 Q The fact that the industrial hygienist or the 17 toxicologist or the medical officer may know what 13 precautions should be taken doesn't protect a single 19 workman unless those precautions are put into place, 20 does it? 21 A Would you phrase that again? 22 Q Surely* The industrial hygienist or the 23 toxicologist or the medical officer for a company knows 24 how to protect the workers at that company -- 25 A Yes, sir* NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050500 288 1 Q --- from the dangers of the product they*re 2 working with. That knowledge doesn't do those workers 3 any good, unless the industrial hygienist, toxicologist, 4 or medical officer makes sure that those precautions are 5 actually put into practice in the plant. Isn't that 6 correct? 7 A I can't speak for the practice in plants 8 outside of Monsanto. The responsibility may well have 9 been with the production supervisors. 10 Q Well, I'm not trying to talk about who had the 11 responsibility. My point ist The fact that the 12 industrial hygienist for a company knows what the 13 hazards of a product are and how to protect the workers 14 at that company from being injured by the product 15 doesn't -- doesn't do the workers any good unless the 16 precautions are put into effect, does it? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q Okay. And what this all-capitalization 19 statement on Document No. 18734 emphasizes is the 20 importance of the person who's reading this document -- 21 people like industrial hygienists, toxicologists, 22 medical officers -- of getting the warnings and the 23 precautions into the plant to protect the workmen. 24 Correct? 25 A Sir, I think you referred specifically to tnis NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050501 289 1 document, and again I say, I -- I don't know who got 2 these documents in Great Britain, I'm not sure that the 3 practice o industrial hygiene had developed to the 4 point that there were industrial hygienists in the plant 5 that -- that received this information. 6 Q Fine. bet me broaden my question for you, 7 then. It's clear that this document was not intended to 8 be handed to individual workmen in the plant, isn't it? 9 A I believe that's right, sir. 10 Q Okay. It's clear that it was intended to go to 11 the appropriate personnel who had the ability to put 12 into place work procedures to protect workmen. Isn't 13 that correct? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q And the point of thisbold-capitalization 16 statement at the end of the precautions section on 17 Page 18734, or Document No. 18734, was to emphasize to 18 the people who were reading this the importance of 19 making sure that these precautions were actually put 20 into practice. 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q Okay. Now, these precautions were very 23 specific, were they not? You may want to look at them 24 again. 25 A (Reviews document.} NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050502 290 1 I would say they were specific} yes, sir* 2 Q For example, they specifically instructed that 3 one should wash well with soap and water before smoking 4 a cigarette* 5 A Yes, sir* 6 Q One should wash well with soap and water before 7 taking a drink* 8 A Yes, sir* 9 Q And one should wash well with soap and water at 10 the end of the shift* 11 A Yes, sir* 12 Q They were very specific that if someone came 13 into contact with Aroclor on his skin, it should be 14 washed off immediately* 15 A Yes, sir* 16 Q And they point out the importance of doing it 17 immediately, do they not? 18 A The word "immediately" is used* It's not 19 emphasized* 20 Q But the word"immediately" isused* Correct? 21 A Yes, sir* 22 Q It specifically points out that hand tools that 23 have been in contact with Aroclors should be cleaned, 24 does it not? 25 A Yes, sir* NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050503 291 1 Q It specifically states that if Aroclor is 2 spilled on the bench or floor, it should be cleared up 3 immediately* Correct? 4 A Yes, sir* 5 Q It provides that any cloths or rags used to 6 clean up Aroclor should be destroyed. 7 A Yes, sir* 8 Q It provides that oil-resistant glovesshould be 9 used to protect the hands* 10 A Yes, sir* 11 Q Those are all very specific precautions set 12 forth in this document on the toxicology and safe 13 handling of Monsanto Aroclor* 14 A Yes, sir* 15 Q And this is a document that Monsanto produced 16 in its English operation? 17 A Yes, sir* 18 Q To your knowledge, did the United States 19 operation of Monsanto have any document giving as much 20 specific detail about precautions to be used in the 21 handling of Aroclors intended for United States 22 customers? 23 A I don't recall any, sir* 24 Q Can you agree with me that in retrospect, 25 having precautions in the level of detail provided in NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050504 292 1 this document that was put out by Monsanto in Qreat 2 Britain was a good idea? 3 A I would say in the case o Great Britain# a - 4 the people involved thought it was a good idea* 5 In this country# I would say that we felt that 6 business -- manufacturing operations and handling 7 operations# shipping operations# were such that we 8 accomplished the avoidance of injury without such 9 detailed precautions spelled out* 10 Q Did you ever go and visit any plant o a 11 customer who purchased PCBs from Monsanto? 12 A Yes# sir* 13 Q What plants did you go visit personally? 14 A Z visited a dielectric plant in Wisconsin* I 15 believe it was Milwaukee. 16 Q Who was the customer? 17 A I -- I -- I can't recall the name* 18 Q That's fine* 19 A X think they were probably the third-largest 20 producer of capacitors# following General Electric and 21 Westinghouse* 22 Q Okay* Did you inspect the operations at that 23 plant where the workmen were actually producing 24 capacitors? 25 A Where they were doing what# sir? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050505 293 1 Q Where they were actually manufacturing 2 capaci tors. 3 A l visited a specifying area where the 4 capacitors, after being built, with the layers of 5 materials that are in a capacitor -- excuse me -- the 6 capacitor had been filled with one of the Aroclor 7 dielectric fluids; and I don't know whether it was 8 pyranol Askarel, or what* 9 The units were then placed in an oven that was 10 almost the size of a walk-in oven. And I'm -- I 11 don't -- I'm not sure "oven" is the correct word; but, 12 anyway, a chamoer in which the temperature was raised. 13 And I believe the purpose was to ensure 14 impregnation of the material, the solid material in 15 the --* in the capacitor with the mixture of -- Z believe 16 it was a 1242 and a chlorinated benzene. 17 After a period of subjecting the dielectric -- 18 I'm sorry -- the capacitor to elevated temperatures -- 19 and I've forgotten what those were -- 20 THE WITNESSt Did I lose my mike 21 again? I'm sorry, 22 BY NR. LACEY3 23 Q Let me help you. There you go, 24 A The doors of the heating chamber were opened -- 25 and X think these were large capacitors that were on NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050506 294 1 dollies or mobile equipment -- were removed; and then 2 where they went from there* I'm not sure. 3 But the workmen had complained of irritation to 4 the eyes from the vapors that were released when they 5 opened this chamber after the heating process* And tnat 6 was the only complaint* 7 My recommendation was that they provide means 8 of withdrawing those vapors that had been released 9 during the heating to the outside before the doors were 10 opened so that it would not get into the work room* 11 Q So you did actually observe the workmen working 12 with the -- the PCBs in the workplace? 13 A In this instance* yes* sir* 14 Q Okay* And you found a process being used by 15 that manufacturer that you would not personally approve 16 ofi and* therefore* you recommended changes? 17 A. Yes* sir* 18 Q Has it your impression that the warnings that 19 had been previously provided by Monsanto in its 20 Technical Bulletins and on its warning labels should 21 have been sufficient to advise this customer of the fact 22 that the process they were using before you got there 23 was one that you thought was inappropriate? 24 A Was inappropriate? 25 Q Yes. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050507 295 1 HR. SHQEBOTHAMt Do you understand 2 the question* Mr. Wheeler? I'm not -- 3 THE WITNESS* I -- 1 -- I'm a little 4 confused. I'm-- \ 5 BY MR. LACEYi 6 Q Let me make it very clear. 7 A Okay. 8 Q You concluded that what they were doing was not 9 appropriate? 10 A That's right. XI Q And you recommended a change? 12 A That's right. 13 Q Now* my question toyou is whether it was your 14 opinion that that customer should have been able to IS determine solely from the literature that you provided 1$ to them* Technical Bulletins and warning labels* that 17 the process they were using was inappropriate. 13 A Was inappropriate? 19 Q Yes. 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q And so you wereable to see in that 22 circumstance that despite warning labels that you 23 thought should be adequate and Technical Bulletins that 24 you thought should be adequate to tell the customer what 23 they were doing wasn't appropriate* for whatever reason NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050508 296 1 those labels and those Technical Bulletins had not 2 caused the customer to reach that conclusion. Correct? 3 A In this instance. 4 Q And it took a personal visit from you to 5 determine the problem and cause the customer to change 6 his conduct. Correct? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q What other plants did you visit where PCBs were 9 being used? 10 A I visited a similar plant in Sweden that was 11 not having any problem. 12 G Did they purchase PCBs from Monsanto? 13 A X believe they purchased some from Monsanto 14 Limited, although they may have also bought some from 15 Germany or France. And X visited that plant in 16 conjunction with the prevention of allowing the PCB to 17 escape into the environment. 18 Q Now* when you say -- 19 A I beg your pardon. 20 Q I'm sorry. 21 A Well* X was going to mention another plant* but 22 if you -- 23 Q Well* let me do one plant at a time. 24 A All right. 25 G That -- that's easiest for me to do. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050509 297 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q How, this plant, you said, was buying PCBs from 3 Monsanto Limited? 4 A If they were buying it from Monsanto, it would 5 have been from Monsanto Limited* 6 Q And that would have been the English group? 7 A Yes, sir* 8 Q So if this customer were buying PC3s, they 9 would have been buying them from the portion of Monsanto 10 that was the one that put out this bulletin we've 11 previously talked about, 18731 through 18737* Correct? 12 A 1 don't know the date of this bulletin* I 13 was -- X visited that plant in spring of -- X guess it 14 was May 1970* 15 Q Yeah* My -- my question to you wasn't the date 16 of the bulletin* My question to you wass They were 17 buying from the sameMonsanto division or group that put 18 out the bulletin, 18731 through 18737? 19 A That's right* 20 Q Mow, to try to date this bulletin, one of the 21 things thatwe can do is look in the bulletin to see if 22 we can find anything that for it to be true, would have 23 to indicate it was written about a certain time* Isn't 24 that correct? 25 A In reading through it, sir, X don't see NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50510 298 1 anything that would allow me to put a date on it. 2 Q Well, let me -- let me direct your -- 3 MR. SHOEBOTHAM: Mr. Wheeler has also 4 testified that he had never seen this S document before today; so I think any 6 testimony from him as to the circumstances 7 of its publication, or when it was put 8 out, or who it went to, or whether it went 9 to 10 MR. LACEY* Z see. 11 MR. SHGEBQTHAM* -- the plant in 12 Sweden would be pure speculation -- 13 MR. LACEY I I see. 14 MR. SHOESOTHAM -- on his part, and 15 I would object to any questions on that - 16 in that regard. 17 HR, LACEY * Okay. 13 BY MR. LACEYt 19 Q Well, let me direct your attention to Page 20 18733, the introduction. In the second sentence of the 21 introduction, it states that these compounds -- talking 22 about Aroclors or PCBs -- "nave been used safely in 23 industry throughout the world for over 30 years." Do 24 you see that statement? 25 A Yes, sir. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50511 299 1 Q PCSs started being used about 1930# did they 2 not? 3 A I believe the GE patent was dated in 1923. 4 Q That would be about 1930# then? 5 A Yes# sir. 6 Q And if you add 30 years to 1930 or thereabouts# 7 you'd come up about I960. Correct? 8 A I -- as I read this# it says the compounds were 9 used throughout the world for 30 years. I -- I'm not 10 sure that this dates the use in Great Britain. 11 Q Well# it doesn't -- it actually doesn't talk 12 about the use in Great Britain at all# does it? 13 A It says that they're -- are manufactured in 14 this country and "have been used safely in industry 15 throughout the world for over 30 years." 16 Q "Throughout the world" would include the United 17 States# wouldn't it? 18 A Yes# sir. 19 Q Okay. And if you look at the 30-year period# 20 you're looking at sometime after 1960# aren't you? 21 HR. SHOEBQTHAMx You're asking 22 Hr. Wheeler to speculate as to the date of 23 this bulletin that he has never seen 24 before today? 25 MR. LACEY* No. I'm not -- I'm NELLMCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. . TOWOLDMONOQ50512 300 1 asking nothing about the date of the 2 bulletin, Mr* Shoebotham* 3 BY MR* LACEY I 4 Q I'm asking about when could one truthfully -- 5 when could Monsanto truthfully make the statement that 6 *?CBs have been used in industry throughout the world 7 for over 30 years** It would have to be sometime after 8 about 1960, wouldn't it? 9 A Based on their introduction, Z guess, in 1930, 10 that *-- that's an assumption* 11 Q Well, it's not -- it's more than an assumption* 12 I mean, you couldn't truthfully say they had been used 13 for more than 30 years in 1950, could you? 14 A I beg your pardon? 15 Q If you made the statement in 1950 that PCBs had 16 been used for more than 30 years in industry, that 17 wouldn't be a true statement,would it? 18 A I'm -- I believe that'scorrect, 19 Q Okay* Now, the -- the use or the reference to 20 the number of years that PCBs have been used in industry 21 wa3 a frequent statement made not only in Great Britain, 22 but also in United States publications about PCBs, was 23 it not? 24 A Yes, sir* 25 Q You and Dr* Kelly had those types of statements NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50513 301 1 included in documents that you had put out* did you not? 2 A Yes, sir* 3 Q And you would update the number of years that 4 you've referred to PCBs having been used from time to 5 time in using those publications, would you not? 6 A 1 presume we did. 7 Q Okay. And so, for example, when you reached a the 40-year mark, you would say, "PCBs have been used 9 for more than 40 years," didn't you? 10 A I suspect that we did; yes, sir. 11 Q Okay. So, assuming that -- and we are making 12 an assumption at this point -- but assuming that that 13 was the practice that the people in England used, too, 14 this document would have gone out sometime in the IS 1960's, wouldn't it? 16 A That's a logical conclusion. 17 Q Okay. And if we then assume that this customer 18 at this Swedish plant that you went to see in 1970 19 Dought PCBs from Monsanto, and that -- and we're talking 20 about bought them from Monsanto Limited, the English 21 outfit -- and the Monsanto people there did what you 22 endeavored to do in the United States, which was give 23 Monsanto customers the appropriate Technical Bulletins, 24 then those -- that Swedish plant should have had 25 Document 18731 through 18737. Isn't that correct? NELL MCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. . TOWOLDMONOQ50514 302 1 MR, SHOEBOTHAMi I object to the form 2 of the question* 3 Zt calls upon Mr, Wheeler to rankly 4 speculate as to, first of all* the date of 5 the publication. Just because it came 6 after 1960 does not in any way date the 7 document or indicate that it came before 8 or after Mr, Wheeler*s visit to the plant. 9 Secondly, Mr, Wheeler's testified he 10 hasn't seen the document before today, 11 Thirdly, Mr, Wheeler has no personal 12 knowledge as to whether the plant in 13 Sweden had this bulletin or not, Zt 14 clearly calls upon him to speculate, 15 A Z might add Z have no idea what the 16 distribution of that document was, 17 MR, SHOEBOTHAMi Why don't you repeat 18 your answer, Mr, Wheeler? 19 A To add to Counsel's three points, Z would say, 20 in the fourth place, 1 have no idea what the -- the 21 distribution of that document was, 22 BY MR, LACEY: 23 Q Well, let me -- again, Z -- Z'm not asking you 24 what the distribution of it was, Z'm asking to 25 understand the process that Monsanto used, and let's NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50515 303 1 just stop and do that# because that's what I want to 2 accomplish. 3 If this document were written in the same form 4 that documents were written in the United States -- that 5 is# using the reference to the number of years of use -- 6 it would be logical to date this document sometime in 7 the 1960's# would it not? 8 HR. SH0E30THAK* I believe the 9 testimony from Hr. Wheeler was after I960. 10 HR. LACEYt No# I believe the 11 testimony -- well# let's ask the question 12 so we're clear. 13 BY MR. LACEY* 14 Q It would be logical to date the document 15 sometime in the 1960's# would it not? 16 A I think that's right. 17 Q Okay. Now# you visited the Swedish plant in 18 1970 -- 19 A Right. 20 Q ~ after the conclusion of the 1960's. 21 A Yes# sir. 22 Q Okay. And if that Swedish plant were 23 purchasing PCBs from Monsanto# they would have been 24 purchasing them from the English group. Correct? 25 A I believe that's right# sir. NELLMCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. , TOWOLDMONOQ50516 304 1 Q And if the English group had been selling PCBs 2 to this Swedish plant and distributing literature on 3 safe handling and toxicology in accordance with the 4 Monsanto practice, they should have distributed by the 5 time you got to the Swedish plant to that customer a 6 copy of Document 18731 through 18737 Correct? 7 MR. SHOEBOTHAMi Same objections as 8 stated earlier. It calls upon Hr. Wheeler 9 to speculate. XO BY MR. LACEYl XX Q You can answer the question. 12 A Z can*t answer it, sir, because I -- by the 13 time Z saw the plant, there was great concern in Sweden 14 about the environmental aspects and what -- when the -- 15 when the plant was providing the Kind of production 16 facilities that Z saw, when those were introduced, Z 17 don't Know. 18 Q That's not my question. My only question was 19 whether the -- if Monsanto's English operation was doing 20 what it was supposed to be doing, which was supplying 21 technical literature like Document 18731 through 18737 22 to the customers it sold to, if this Swedish plant 23 bought Monsanto PCBs, then they should have also gotten 24 a copy of this document? 25 A Z would believe that they would have gotten a NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50517 305 X copy of that document. 2 Q Okay. And when you observed this Swedish plant 3 in the 19701 s, you didn't find anything about their work 4 practices that you thought needed to be changed. 5 Correct? 6 A That's right. 7 Q Okay. How, with regard to -- 8 A Hay 1 add a comment? My observation included 9 visual handling of the capacitors, again going into a 10 drying oven and being removed, and ~~ and ventilation 11 was being supplied. 1 don't know that they were wearing 12 gloves; X don't know that they were protective clothing, 13 or barrier creams, or any of the other procedures that 14 would help reduce exposure. 15 Q But wnatever it was you saw was not sufficient 16 that caused you, as an industrial hygienist for 17 Monsanto, to recommend changes in the work procedures? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q What other plants -- you mentioned there are 20 other plants you visited. What other plants have you 21 visited? 22 A I -- X mentioned plants originally, sir. X 23 visited one other plant. X visited a total of three 24 plants. 25 Q Okay. We've discussed the Wisconsin capacitor NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50518 306 1 plant -- 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q -- for -- for somebody other than Westinghouse 4 or GE? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q We've discussed the Swedish plant? 7 A Yes* sir. a Q Which was the third plant? 9 A The third plant was the plant of Mobil Oil 10 Company in Hew Jersey. 11 Q And when did you visit that plant? 12 A I don't recall the date, sir. 13 Q oo you recall even the decade that the visit 14 took, place? 15 A I believe it would have been maybe mid-'60's. 16 Q By the way, X don't think X asked you, and X 17 need to do thati What date, approximately, was it that 18 you visited this capacitor plant in Wisconsin? 19 A X would say in the '60's sometime. 20 Q And ~~ and what was it that this Mobil Oil 21 Company plant in Mew Jersey was doing? 22 A The plant was making catalyst for cracking oil 23 to produce the desired fractions. And X think from 24 Texas you know what cracking is. 25 Q X have a -- I have an understanding of what's NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50519 307 1 involved in that* 2 A Probablybetter than mine* But, anyway, the 3 operation involved making small pellets of material, and 4 don't recall what it was* The pellets, for want of a 5 better description, looked like frog's eggs or tapioca* 6 Q Okay* 7 A Perhaps a little larger in size, but not bigger 8 than a small dried pea* 9 The formation apparently was at -- at elevated 10 temperatures and to permit the catalyst to become 11 solid and -- and strong and -- I don't know that Z saw 12 any of the finished ones, but let me say probably as 13 hard as a -- as a dried pea* 14 They were put in large tanks or vats that may 15 have been six to seven feet in diameter and eight to ten 16 feet in depth* And one of the Aroclore --* 1 believe it 17 was 1242 -- was used as a fluid in these open tanks to 13 allow these particles to become firm and -- and hard* 19 X was asked to look at the operation because 20 they had had several cases ~ two or three cases, I 21 oelieve -- of chloracne or skin rash, and I can't recall 22 that it was necessarily chloracne* But they did have 23 skin problems on the arms and hands and in the groin 24 area. 25 This was not typical of most chloracne cases* NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050520 308 1 Most chloracne, X think, from other causes, from other 2 materials, developed around the neck and face and caused 3 blackhead-type eruptions, rather than other types o 4 skin reactions* 5 In any case, it turned out that the -- one of 6 the steps in determining how the pellets were 7 solidifying or setting up was to dip the hare hands into 8 the Aroclor to feel of them, and then perhaps wipe their 9 hands on a rag or wipe their hands on their trousers in 10 the groin area* And the -- the few cases, and X XI don't -- I'm not sure; there weren't more than four or X2 five at the most -- had developed this skin problem* 13 Well, it was obvious in this case that that X4 plant was not avoiding prolonged and repeated skin 15 contact* And when they went to whatever changes in 16 processing that they did, the -- the problem ceased to 17 exist* 18 Q Did you recommend changes there? 19 A X pointed out on the label, and ~ and X've 20 forgotten whether they had a Technical Bulletin or not* 21 X believe they did, because X knew the industrial 22 hygienist from Mobil, a fellow named Arthur Pabst, 23 p~a-b-s-t* X told you yesterday that their Medical 24 Director had been a former employee of Monsanto, a 25 former -- that they had to find some other method of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50521 309 X avoiding skin contact* 2 Q And again* I take it* just like the Wisconsin 3 plant* it was your view that the information previously 4 supplied by Monsanto before you arrived should have been 5 adequate to have them avoid the type of conduct that was 6 taking place? 7 A That's right* 8 Q But for some reason* it was not? 9 A For some reason* their system broke down* 10 Q Yeah* Did it occur to you that maybe the 11 workmen were under the understanding that simply dipping 12 their hand in to feel the pellets and then wiping it off 13 was not prolonged contact? 14 A I -- I can't express an opinion on -- on the 15 reaction of the individual workers* 16 Q Well* to you* when you used the word ~ and I'm 17 talking about the Monsanto Medical Department* you and 18 Dr* Kelly -- used the word* "Avoid prolonged contact," 19 did you intend to say* "Don't allow any skin contact at 20 all"? 21 A No* sir* 22 Q Well* the workmen at this Mobil plant -- they 23 simply dipped their hand in* felt the pellets briefly* 24 pulled it back out* and wiped it off immediately on a 25 rag* didn't they? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50522 310 1 A Z can't even guess at how complete the removal 2 by a rag was* 3 Q But their process was to hip it in for a few 4 seconds, feel the pellet, pull it back out, and then 5 attempt to wipe it off? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q Was that more than -- or was that, in your 8 definition, prolonged skin contact? 9 A I would think so, if the hands were not washed XO afterwards* 11 Q Well, setting aside the washing of the hands 12 for a moment *-- 13 HR. SHOEBOTHAM* Hr. Wheeler also 14 testified the label said, "Avoid prolonged 15 or repeated skin contact* 16 HR. LACEYi I see. 17 BY HR. LACEYt 18 Q Well, how often did an individual workman dip 19 his hands in that vat? 20 A I don't recall* 21 Q Was the problem -- the real problem was 22 allowing them to put their hands in the vat at all, 23 wasn't it? 24 A That's my belief, yes. 25 Q And your recommendation was that they change NELLMCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50523 311 X their practice so the hands never came into contact with 2 the PCBs? 3 A Or use appropriate gloves to avoid the skin 4 contact, 5 Q Exactly* So your real recommendation was# 6 "Don't allow any skin contact# and that will solve the 7 problem, * 8 A That's right, 9 Q Okay, And your labels and your Technical 10 Bulletins certainly did not say# "Avoid any skin 11 contact#" did they? 12 A No# sir, 13 Q They just said, "Avoid repeated and prolonged 14 skin contact," 15 A That's right, 16 Q And that# X guess# was a matter or is a matter 17 that reasonable people could differ in their 18 understanding of what you meant, 19 A I don't think so# sir# in the context of use of 20 industrial chemicals, 21 Q I see, 22 A I would not hesitate today to take and wash my 23 hands in Aroclor 1242, 24 Q X see, 25 A X wouldn't do it every day of my working life, NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50524 312 1 X would not anticipate that industry would -- other 2 industrial hygienists and people in industry would 3 review -- would regard the action and exposure of a 4 motor mechanic in a garage who has repeated and 5 prolonged skin contact# if you will# with lubricating 6 oil. 7 Q In the case of this Mobil plant# do you think 8 the problem that allowed this to take place was a 9 breakdown in the Mobil organization? 10 A X think so# yes. And I'm not certain that this 11 wasn't a brand-new application that had been -- just 12 been developed by their research and engineering group. 13 Q Are you aware that there was a study performed 14 at a Mobil plant in the 1970's which indicated workers 15 seemed to have higher-than-normal problems because of 16 exposure to PCBs? 17 A X don't recall it# sir. 18 Q You don't know if this -- then you wouldn't 19 know if this was the Mobil plant that was involved in 20 that study? 21 A Obviously not. 22 Q Okay. 23 You don't recall visiting any other facilities 24 besides -- besides the three we've just described where 25 customers were making use of PCBs. Xs that correct? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50525 313 1 A That's correct* 2 HR* SHOESGTEAMj At a convenient 3 point in here# why don't we give 4 Hr* Wheeler a lunch creak? 5 HR* LACEYt Surely* Let me ask just 6 a couple more questions# and we'll he 7 coming to a convenient point* 8 BY MR* LACSYt 9 Q Do you know whether other people in the Medical 10 Department who reported to you or to whom you reported 11 visited any other customers' plants where PCBs were 12 being used? 13 A I have a vague recollection that Dr* Kelly 14 visited a -- a die-casting plant that was using a PCS 15 formulation* 16 Q Do you recall whose die-casting plant it was? 17 A Ho# sir* 18 Q Do you recall approximately when the visit took 19 place? 20 A No, sir* 21 Q Do you recall whether Dr* Kelly observed any 22 problems in the handling of PCBs at that plant? 23 A No, sir* 24 Q You don't recall whether he did# or he did not 25 observe any? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50526 314 1 A I don't -- I -- I don't recall what his report 2 was, sir, or -- I'm sure we subsequently discussed it, 3 but I don't recall it* 4 Q And that's -- 5 A To my recollection, it was a West Coast plant, 6 but -- after 20 years, that's the best X can do* 7 Q That's fine* And is that the only incident 8 that you can recall where someone else in the Medical 9 Department visited a customer plant where PCBs were 10 being used? 11 A I recall one instance where there was a use in 12 in the Kansas City area in a Department of Defense 13 application* And although X had Atomic Energy clearance 14 and could examine top-secret information and data and 15 visit installations, there was a separate clearance for 16 the DOD* 17 Am X missing something? 18 There was -- there was a -- as you probably are 19 aware, there was a different type of clearance for 20 visiting DOD establishments where there were classified 21 operations going on* 22 And I don't recall -- I -- I believe, again, 23 this was a -- well, X Know it was the use of a Pydraul 24 fluid, not PCB alone* And it was a question of what 25 the -- this important defense operation could do if NELLMCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50527 315 X Monsanto withdrew from producing the PCS material that 2 they were using* 3 BY MR. LACEY* 4 Q Did somebody go to that plant and -- 5 A Jack Garrett went, because he had Defense -- he 6 had DOD clearance* 7 Q And do you know whether Mr* Garrett found any 8 way in which the fluid was being used that he thought 9 was inappropriate vis-a-vis worker safety? 10 A Oh, because of the DOD confidential secret IX aspects of the plant and the use, I -- I don't remember 12 that Jack ever told me what they were doing -- 13 Q Okay* 14 A -- and what he found. 15 0 So there's -- we'd have to ask Mr* Garrett 16 whether or not there was a problem with their use* You 17 don't know* 18 A That's right,sir* 19 Q Do you know of anybody else in the Medical 20 Department who visited any plant where PCB-containing 21 products were being used? 22 A No, sir* 23 Q Okay 24 MR* LACEY* 1 think that would be a 25 good spot for a lunch break* NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50528 316 1 Mr. Shoabotham can go out and walk by 2 the pool and see what's going on. 3 THE VIDBOTECHNICIAN* We're off tne 4 record. 5 6 (Luncheon recess) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ******* 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50529 317 1 MTSaaQflli-,SESSION 2 3 4 THE VIDEOTECHNICIAN* Okay. We've 5 been oIt the record for a lunch break# and 6 we*re now back on the record* The time is 7 2*15 p*m* 8 9 ******* 10 11 CQgTIHUS&JSXftfttMSEIQB 12 13 QUESTIONS BY MR* LACEY* 14 Q Mr* Wheeler# shortly before thelunch break we 15 were discussing the toxicity and safe-handling material 16 prepared by the English Monsanto group regarding PCBs* 17 Do you recall that document? 18 A Yes# sir* 19 Q And I believe you told me you don't recall 20 having anything to do with the preparation of the 21 material in that document* Is that -- 22 A That's right* sir* 23 Q Okay* You did from time to time work withthe 24 English group on problems in selling Monsanto products 25 in England* did you not* with regard to toxicity and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050530 318 1 safe handling? 2 A I don't recall any# sir -- 3 Q Well# let me -- 4 A -- until the -- until the environmental aspects 5 came up* 6 Q Let me hand you a memo from you to Mr* C* B* 7 Ammons dated November 12th# 1962# regarding toxicity and 8 safe handling of Pydraul# Document 24959 (tendering)# 9 and see if that refreshes your recollection* 10 A (Reviews document*) 11 X don't remember the document# sir* 12 Q Do you remember being involved in the process 13 of trying to convince the National Coal Board in Britain 14 that Pydraul would be safe for use in mines in England? 15 A X recall only the question of the use of 15 Pydraul in coal mines in Great Britain did arise* 17 Q Having reviewed the letter# can you tell that 18 you were involved in that process of providing 19 information to the British group on toxicity and safe 20 handling of that PCB-containing material? 21 A As X indicated# X don't recall the -- the 22 correspondence* But it is over my namef yes# sir. 23 Q And did -- were you involved in what the 24 corporation says you were involved in? 25 A To the extent indicated in that -- that letter. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50531 319 1 yes, sic (tendering) 2 Q All right* 3 HR* SHOiSBOTHAtls What is that number, 4 pi ea se ? 5 HR. LACSYI 24959. 6 BY MR. LACEY I 7 Q Would you -- you came toMonsanto in 1947? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q And you were involved from thattime forward in 10 matters of industrial hygiene? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Let me show you a document, 21457 through 13 21459. That's the first three pages of five pages that 14 are stapled together here, which is a Report Ho. 2215 IS from the Research Department in Anniston, Alabama, dated 16 April 27th, 1948. I will ask you if you've ever seen 17 that report before (tendering) 18 A (Reviews document.) 19 THE WITNESS! Can you see it over my 20 shoulder, John? 21 HR. SHOEBQTHAMj Sure. Thank you. 22 HR, LACEY! John, you can get closer, 23 if you want, and take a look at it. 24 A 1948. 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50532 320 1 BY HR. LACEY* 2 Q That report was generated after you came to 3 Monsanto# was it not? 4 A YeSf sir. I joined the company in July of '47. 5 Q And it deals with matters that relate to 6 industrial hygiene# does it not? 7 A I haven't read that much of it yet# sir. I*m 8 sorry. 9 Q Okay. 10 A (Reviews document.) 11 THE WITNESS* Areyou ready to turn? 12 MR. SHOEBOTHAM* Certainly. You just 13 read it at your speed. 14 A I. G. Consider. What's I. G.? 15 BY MR. LACEY* 16 Q I'm sorry? 17 A There's -- there's a reference here# sir# to 18 I. G.# and I don't know what that is. 19 Q uh-huh. Have you had a chance toreview 20 those -- 21 A I -- I've only gone through# I think# the first 22 page. 23 I don't recall ever seeing this document# sir. 24 Q Okay. Why would somebody -- that document does 25 deal with matters that relate to industrial hygiene# NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50533 321 1 does it not? 2 A Yes# sir. 3 Q Why would somebody other than you be preparing 4 a report on matters related to industrial hygiene after 5 you*d joined the company? 6 I believe those last two pages relate to are 7 a different document. They're --* they were all stapled 8 together for some reason. 9 A My only explanation is that this was April of 10 *27. Z joined the company in July 29# or something like 11 that# of '47. I'm sorry. It's April '48. 12 I'm not sure I'd even visited the plant at that 13 point. 14 Q All right. Mow# let's see the report. 15 A Would you like me to -- 16 Q Oh# yeah I -- 17 A -- to finish reading? 18 Q Yeah; I'm sorry. I thought you had finished 19 reading that part. 20 A Oh# I -- I've only read the ~ 21 Q You've read the cover page and -- 22 A The next page. I've read Pages 1 and 2. 23 Q Okay. I think that -- that is -- is the 24 report. The last two pages are a different document. 25 Those -- that's from some other source. You can feel NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50534 322 1 free to look at them, but I -- I don't have any 2 questions about that, per se. 3 A You do not have questions about --4 Q About those last two pages. They -- they S appear to be a different document. They were just all 6 stapled together for some reason. 7 A (Reviews document.) 8 I know what the addition refers to, sir. 9 HR. SHOEBOTHAHs Could Z take a look 10 at it? 11 MR. LACEYs Real quickly. I -- I was 12 going to ask some questions about it, 13 but -- 14 MR. SHOEBOTHAHs Okay, bet me take a 15 quick look at it, if I could. 16 HR. LACEYs Sure. 17 MR. SHOEBOTHAHs If we need to go off 18 camera to do that, that's fine. 19 MR. LACEYt Just let the tape run, I 20 guess. 21 HR. SHOEBOTHAHs (Reviews document.) 22 Okay. Thank you (tendering) 23 BY MR. LACEYs 24 Q This report that you have reviewed deals with 25 the Aroclors or PCB products at the Anniston, Alabama, NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50535 323 1 plant, does it not? 2 A Yes, sir* 3 Q Do you know who R* R. Knight is, the person who 4 prepared it? 5 A R R, Knight, K-n-i-g-h-t? 6 Q Yes, K-n-i-g-h-t (tendering) 7 A No, sir (tendering) 8 a Do you know who A* R* Ellenburg is? 9 A Yes, sir* 10 Q who is Hr. Ellenburg? 11 A I believe he was a chemist in the control, and, 12 I believe, some research activities in the laboratory at 13 that plant* 14 Q The report refers to the use of .barrier creams 15 to protect employees, does it not? 16 A Yes, sir* 17 a How, was that something you approved of or did 18 not approve of? I -- X know we discussed it yesterday* 19 I can't remember if you were in favor of .barrier creams 20 or opposed to them* 21 A As an industrial hygienist, I was -- I did not 22 feel that the use of barrier creams were always the best 23 solution, because X think they gave a false sense of / 24 security* 25 Many of the barrier creams -that were available NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50536 324 1 at that time were not necessarily protective against 2 specific materials; and the users were less inclined to 3 wash their hands, if there had been any exposure# and 4 then reapply another coat of the harrier cream. 5 The harrier creams# as -- as far as I Know# are 6 not effective prevention for probably even the the -- 7 the PCBs 8 Q So not only were they not effective prevention; 9 but# in your opinion# they also gave a false sense of 10 security* 11 A 1 think X said, sir# they could* 12 Q They could. Well -- 13 A I-- I -- I prefaced that# sir# with the comment 14 that I was speaking in general; my ~ my general 15 reaction to the use of barrier creams* 16 Q And your general reaction would be not to favor 17 their use# because they didn*t 18 A Under very -- except under perhaps some 19 circumstances -- circumstances that X can't think of at 20 the moment# but -- 21 Q All right* 22 A -- if there were operations# for example, where 23 they used some -- gloves couldn't be used because of 24 fine technical work that required manipulation of the 25 fingers# then -- and there was no way to limit contact NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50537 325 1 with the hands/ then frequent use of harrier creaias, 2 with removal if there had been -- if the hands had been 3 washed/ let me say, for lunch or for what purpose; 4 and -- again, some recognition of the limitation of the 5 effectiveness of barrier creams* 6 Q When you talk about a fine operation, that use 7 that those workers at Mobil were making of feeling those 8 pellets to see how hard they weret Would that be the 9 type of fine use you're talking about, where gloves may 10 interfere with the -- 11 A Mo, sir* 12 Q I see* Would barrier creams have been a good 13 things for those Mobil workers to use if they weren't 14 going to use gloves? Would that have improved their 15 skin protection? 16 A X would nothaverecommended it for that, no* 17 Q Well, that's not my question* 18 Had they applied barrier creams before putting 19 their hands into the PCBs, would that have helped to 20 keep them from having as much absorbed through the skin? 21 A I -- I can't answer that* 22 Q Okay. 23 When you made your your first plant inspection 24 to Anniston, Alabama, did you recommend that barrier 25 creams be removed from the PCB Department? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50538 326 1 A X can't recall* 2 Q Did you ever recommend that barrier creams be 3 removed from the PCB Department in Anniston* Alabama? 4 A I can't recall* 5 Q Did you ever recoaaiend that barrier creams be 6 removed from the PC- -- PCB Department in the Illinois 7 plant? 8 A X can't recall* 9 Q To your knowledge* were -- did barrier creams 10 remain available in both PCB Departments as long as you 11 worked for Monsanto? 12 A Xn the PCB operation? 13 Q Yes* 14 A X can't recall* 15 Q X see* 16 Do you recall learning -- strike that* 17 This report indicates that there were severe 18 attacks of chloracne and internal sickness in the early 19 years at Anniston* Alabama* Is that correct? 20 A Mot to my knowledge* in terms of serious 21 illness* 22 Q Well* did you see the report that referenced 23 that? 24 A I ref- -- X see that* and X don't know the -- 25 I don't know the background for that reference* NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50539 327 1 Q When you first went to the Anniston* Alabama* 2 plant* did you attempt to determine what the work 3 history had been? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And weren't you advised that there had been 6 serious chloracne problems in the early years of the 7 plant operation? 8 A There had been chloracne cases in the late 9 30's at that plant. I can't describe them as serious. 10 Q I see. You would not use the word "severe" 11 attacks of chloracne? 12 A To my knowledge* they were not so described in 13 any other ~~ I've never seen them described in that 14 fashion* other than in that memo. 15 Q What about internal sickness? Were you advised 16 of problems of internal sickness? 17 A Z never heard of any internal sicknesses at the 18 Anniston plant in the people exposed to or working with 19 the PCBs* 20 Q I see. Are you aware of any internal 21 sicknesses that might be caused by exposure to PCBs? 22 A Are you saying* sir* internal in the 23 individual* or internal in Monsanto? 24 Q Internal in the individual. 25 A I'm aware of the publications in the '30*s* in NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050540 328 1 the late *30*s, of the work done by Dr. Drinkard at 2 Harvard sponsored by Monsanto, Onion Carbide, and one or 3 two other people that included PCBs with chlorinated 4 materials and chlorinated naphthalene, specifically. 5 Q My question is* Are you aware of any internal 6 sicknesses that can be caused by PCBs; and if so, what 7 they are? 8 A That can be caused? 9 Q Yes 10 A I think, sir, we've said that the -- there 11 is -- there is the possibility of liver injury. 12 Q Okay. Are you aware of anything, other than 13 liver injury, that can be caused by PCBs that might be 14 characterised as an internal sickness? 15 A I --I can't recall any, sir. 16 Q Okay. 17 Would you agree that certain people, notably 18 those with fair skin or who show distinct allergies, are 19 best diverted to other work not involving contact with 20 PCBs? 21 A May I see that? 22 Q Certainly; the second paragraph on the page 23 numbered 21459 (tendering) 24 A (Reviews document.) 25 That is a general statement I think is correct. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50541 329 1 I'm not sure that there was any basis for it in relation 2 to the PCBs. 3 Q Well, would you agree that people with fair 4 skin should be diverted to work not involving PCBs? 5 A Ho, sir. 6 Q Will you agree that people who show distinct 7 allergies should be diverted to work not involving PCBs? 8 A I've never heard of any indication that there 9 were people who were allergic to PCBs. 10 Q What about people who were generally allergic 11 to other matters? Would you agree that those people 12 should be diverted to other work not Involving PCBs? 13 A I -- I'm sorry. Your -- your voice dropped, 14 and -- 15 Q Okay. I'm sorry. 1*11 try to keep my voice 16 up. 17 Would you agree that people who show allergies, 18 distinct allergies, other than to PCBs, should be 19 diverted to work not involving PCBs? 20 A I see no reason for it. 21 Q Okay. Would you agree that scrupulous 22 cleanliness of the skin -- including the face, neck, and 23 arms -- and of the clothing, especially undergarments, 24 is essential and needs strict enforcement in PCB areas? 25 A No, sir. NELL NIC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50542 330 1 Q That is what these people recommended in this 2 Monsanto report# is it not? 3 A As 1 read it# yes# sir. 4 Q Okay. And# of course# you would not agree with 5 the recommendation that barrier creams should be used on 6 those parts of the skin which come into contact with 7 solid or liquid PCBs. 3 A No# sir. 9 Q No# you would not agree? XO A I would not agree that they should be used. XI I'd rather -- X2 Q Okay. 13 A -- see them avoid this contact. X4 Q Okay. Would you agree that in case the 15 precautions recommended in this report are being evaded# 16 monthly medical inspections would be desirable 17 (tendering)? The very last paragraph. X8 A (Reviews document.) 19 Z -- I'm not a physician. I can't answer 20 the -- 21 Q Well# let me ask you from an industrial hygiene 22 standpoint. Would you agree that it's possible for 23 workers in a plant to potentially evade precautions? 24 A Z beg your pardon? 25 Q Would you agree with me that it's possible for NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50543 331 1 workers in the plant to evade precautions? 2 A Is it possible? 3 Q Surely* 4 A Oh, yes, sir* 5 Q In fact# the authors of this report were 6 concerned that Monsanto's own PCB workers in Anniston# 7 Alabama, might try to evade the precautions recommended 8 in this report* Isn't that correct? 9 MR* SHOEBQTHAM: I object to the form 10 of the question to the extent you're 11 asking him what the authors of this 12 document that he testified he hadn't seen 13 until today were intending to do* 14 BY MR. LACEY I 15 Q You can answer the question* 16 A Bis comment struck my thought* 17 q I'm sorry for that* 18 A I -- I -- I don't agree with the conclusion 19 that I think you drew from that last paragraph* 20 Q l see* Well# what conclusion should be drawn 21 from that last paragraph? 22 A I think# sir# you indicated that it might 23 indicate that the precautions were being evaded* It 24 doesn't say that* It says# "In case the precautions are 25 being evaded#* or these -- or less -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50544 332 1 Q "Lest," Ithink it is# isn't it? 2 A L-e-s-tj "or lest" -- "or lest there snail he 3 30me idiosyncrasy" -- I don't know what they were 4 referring to there "monthly medical inspection is 5 desirable#" 6 Q There -- there is the possibility# isn't there# 7 that workers may not follow recommended precautions 8 thoroughly? 9 A Yes# sir# 10 Q That's something industrial hygienists 11 recognize# isn't it? 12 A Yes# sir# 13 Q And that's something you need to take into 14 account as you design your program# isn't it? 15 A Yes# sir# 16 Q There are also some workers who are more 17 sensitive than others to particular problems# aren't 18 there? 19 A Yes# sir. 20 Q And that's what they're talking about when they 21 talk about idiosyncrasies some people may be more 22 susceptible to problems than others# Isn't that 23 correct? 24 A X don't know what they were referring to# sir# 25 Q But that is a reality; that some people -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50545 333 1 A Hy -- my answer to your question was more based 2 on the tact that in the case of skin reaction, there's 3 some evidence that people with dark, oily skins are more 4 or less sensitive to skin reactions, and vice-versa; 5 blondes are more or less sensitive to irritation or skin 6 problems* I thought that's what you were referring to. 7 Q Well, that -- that makes the point that some 3 people people are more sensitive than others to 9 particular problems from skin exposures* Correct? 10 A That's right* 11 Q And that's a reality that industrial hygienists 12 and occupational physicians are aware of, is it not? 13 A Yes, sir* 14 Q And that's something that one needs to take 15 into account as they try to advise people of the hazards 16 of any particular chemical* 17 A Only when there's reason to doubt that -- that 18 the exposure is such that it could have that effect and 19 where there is some evidence that that effect has 20 occurred* . 21 Q z see. Basically, then, an industrial 22 hygienist doesn't take precautions against what might 23 happen, but waits for the problem to appear and then 24 tries to remedy it* 25 MR. SHOEBOTHAMs I -- NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50546 33 4 1 BY MR. LACEYt 2 Q Is that what you're saying? 3 MR* SHOEBOTHAM* X object to the form 4 of the question as being argumentative, 5 misstating his testimony, and 6 raischaracterizing his testimony* 7 BY MR. LACEY I 8 Q You can answer the question* 9 A I don't think that premise is correct, sir, 10 because the good industrial hygienist, like all 11 scientists, likes to have data to support a decision* 12 And the -- the -- I've forgotten now how you phrased the 13 question, so -- 14 Q Well -- 13 A Can you rephrase the question? 16 Q Yeah, Let me try to ask it again. 17 An industrial hygienist doesn't just try to fix 18 the problems that crop up, do they? 19 A Oh, no, sir* 20 Q They try to anticipate problems and take steps 21 to keep them from ever showing up in the first place* 22 A Depending on available data to make them - 23 to -- to satisfy them that there is or is not a problem. 24 Q And available data may not -- may not involve 23 their own plant workers? it might involve information on NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50547 335 X what's happened at other employers' plants? Correct? 2 A To the extent that the industrial hygienist -- 3 hygienist should ensure that labeling and -- and 4 bulletins indicate the precautions that the industrial 5 hygienist agrees are -- are -- are appropriate, 6 Q I'm sorry, I didn't get my idea across 7 clearly. 8 For example, if you at Monsanto were -- had 9 chemicals that -- or workers who were working with the 10 Chemical X and you had never had any problems with those 11 workers as a result of exposure to Chemical X, but you 12 learned from another company -- let's say Du Pont -- 13 that some of their workers who had been exposed to 14 Chemical X had had problems, and they were therefore 15 recommending precautions, you would take those 16 recommendations from another chemical company into 17 account in preparing your own precautions, would you 18 not? 19 A After determining the circumstances of the 20 complaints, 21 Q You wouldn't wait for one of your own workers 22 to get sick before you did something, would you? 23 A No, sir, 24 2 Okay, That's the point I was trying to 25 understand. And in considering ail available NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50548 336 1 information# an industrial hygienist would also look to 2 studies with animals to give some indication of what 3 problems there might be# would there not? 4 A That's right, 5 Q Would you agree that the toxicity of Aroclors# 6 Doth from the standpoints of absorption from the air and 7 from contact with the skin# has been repeatedly 8 demonstrate? 9 A Would you rephrase that? 10 Q Yes, Would you agree that the toxicity of 11 Aroclors resulting from breathing them in the air and 12 getting them on the skin has been repeatedly 13 demonstrated? 14 A Hot repeatedly# sir* 15 Q X see* 16 MR* SHOEBOTHAMs Hr* Lacey# you have 17 a document there that you're reading from* 18 Do you want to show that to Mr* Wheeler? 19 HR. LACEY* Surely* I -- I'd be 20 happy to* 21 BY MR* LACEY* 22 Q Let me show you a document numbered 993* This 23 is a report entitled "On the Toxicity of the 'Arochlors' 24 (sic)* by Robert M. Brown# Chief# Industrial Hygiene 25 Section# the Division of Health# the Department of NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50549 337 1 Public Welfare# the City of St. Louis (tendering) 2 Do you know Dr* Brown? 3 A City of St, Louis? Oh, yes, Z knew Bob Brown, 4 Q This paragraph right here (indicating)t Would 5 you just look over that paragraph? 6 A (Reviews document,) 7 I've read it, sir, 8 Q Dr. Brown -- is it Dr. Brown? 9 A No, sir* Hr. Brown, 10 Q Hr, Brown. Hr. Brown indicates there's a need 11 to give a warning about Aroclors, is there not? Zs that 12 what he says? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q And he says, "the toxicity of these compounds," 15 And he's talking about Aroclors, isn't he? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q "The toxicity of thesecompounds has been 18 repeatedly demonstrated, both from the standpoints of 19 their absorption from the inspired air, as well as from 20 their effects in producing a serious and disfiguring 21 dermatitis when allowed to remain in contact with the 22 skin." 23 Zs that what Hr, Brown observes? 24 A Hr, Brown says that, but it's incorrect, 25 Q Z see. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050550 338 1 The sole manufacturer of PCBs in the United 2 States was Monsanto? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q Monsanto was headquartered in St. Louis# was it 5 not? 6 A Yes# sir. 7 Q Do you have any idea where Mr. Brown would have 3 gotten this misinformation? 9 A Yes# sir. 10 Q Where did he get this misinformation? 11 A There were reports published in the late 12 '30's -- I think I referred to the date on -- excuse 13 me -- earlier by the Drinkard group at the University 14 of ~~ well# Harvard School of Public Hygiene and part of 15 the medical school at Harvard# concerning 16 polychlorinated biphenyls# mixtures of polychlorinated 17 biphenyls and chlorinated naphthalenes; and some of 18 them# if not all of them# had chlorinated benzenes with 19 them. Those reports were -- and included animal 20 toxicity studies that that group had ~ had done. 21 The literature that Mr. Brown undoubtedly saw 22 at that time# which I probably hadn't seen# since that's 23 September of 1947# included references by the -- 24 certainly, by the State Labor Department in Hew York# 25 State Health Department in Connecticut -- those were the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50551 339 1 two that come to mind -- in bulletins that Hr* Brown 2 would have seen. And they related -- they reported the 3 effects of chloracne, plus serious effects of the liver 4 to people. 5 It was pointed out then and by the industrial 6 hygienists who had any association with the PCBs that 7 the operation in question was -- did not adequately 8 control exposure. 9 My understanding is -- I never saw it, but ray 10 understanding is that this was a question of taking 11 copper wire# drawing it through a bath of fabric of some 12 kind; and then through a bath of a waxy material, which 13 was called Halo wax, which was not a Monsanto product, 14 but which did contain Monsanto's PCBs. These baths 15 contained this mixture of materials that elevated 16 temperatures. 17 Xntially there was no control of the vapors 18 escaping from the heated the heated combination of 19 materials; and, undoubtedly, again, there were -- there 20 was subsequent skin contact handling the cable. I -- it 21 may well be that this was the first time that the term 22 "chloracne" was developed. I don't know. 23 But I believe that it's these reports that 24 Mr. Brown is referring to, and I don't agree with his 25 use of the word or words "repeatedly demonstrated." NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50552 340 1 Q You believe be just was not able to correctly 2 interpret the reports? 3 A Z don't know why he used the word "repeatedly,* 4 Z would not have# because I don't think the number of 5 instances deserve that adjective description. They were 6 repeatedly in that one State department would take the 7 bulletin that had been issued by the original authors in 8 the Hew York bulletin and distribute it as perhaps one 9 of their own. And these references showed up again and 10 again and again# although the actual instances were not 11 all that repeated as he's indicated there, 12 Q Hell# interestingly enough# this discussion 13 that we've just looked at by Dr, -- or I'm sorry -- 14 Mr, Brown is contained in a 1955 Monsanto document that 15 talks about the hazards of PCBs# Document 990 through 16 997 (tendering) Zs that correct? 17 A Let me# if Z may# refer back to this other one 18 first# sir. Wait a minute. What are we looking at now? 19 Q Well -- 20 A We're back to the Anniston? 21 Q Well# Mr, Brown's comments are a part of that 22 entire document, 23 A Okay, 24 Q And z simply wanted to show you that that ~ 25 those -- that information by Mr, Brown is a part of and NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50553 341 1 put into a larger Monsanto document put out in 1955. 2 That is correct, is it not? 3 A I'll -- I'll have to read it, sir* 4 Q Well, you can look at the front page, I think, 5 and you can see how it was put together* And you've 6 still got the front page --* 7 A Oh ~ 8 Q -- under your hand* 9 A -- I'm sorry* I -- I read something here that 10 I thought you were referring back to the Anniston 11 document* You showed me first just Mr* Brown's letter* 12 Q Yes* I showed you - 13 A You didn't show me the cover page* 14 g That's right. And now I'm asking you to look 15 at the entirety of that document* 16 A Oh, I believe my comments may have been out 17 of ~~ excuse me out of context* 18 Q Well, your comments were about what Mr* Brown 19 observed and the correctness of his observations* Is 20 that right? 21 A Yes, sir* 22 Q And I -- I guess my question to you is$ His 23 comments were part of this larger 1955 document talking 24 about the hazards of Arodors* Correct? 25 MB* SBOEBQTHAMt If you know. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50554 342 1 Mr. Wheeler; but 1 don't see your name 2 anywhere on that document, or any 3 indication that you reviewed or assisted 4 in its preparation, or any indication that 5 you've seen it before Mr* Lacey just 6 handed it to you. So you're not required 7 to speculate on what material was 8 contained where* 9 A I -- I -- I -- I don't remember ever seeing it. 10 I I can't place who -- who 1 presume is the author, 11 Mr* Mather, except that I think I may have said earlier 12 he was a -- a chemist at the Anniston plant, sir* 13 BY ME* LACEY * 14 Q Well, my question really is$ That is a 1955 V 15 document by Mr* Mather dealing with the hazards o 16 Aroclors, is it not? 17 A According to the title, yes, sir* 18 Q And that is clearly a Monsanto document, is it 19 not? 20 MR. SHOESOTHAM* If you know, 21 Mr* Wheeler; but, again, you're not 22 required to speculate as to something you 23 don't have personal knowledge of* 24 A I -- I would characterize it as a -- a plant -- 25 a Monsanto plant document* NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50555 343 1 BY HR* LACEY* 2 Q Okay* And I guess what I'm trying to find out 3 is why, if Hr* Brown's comments about PCBs were 4 inaccurate, they were still part of Monsanto documents 3 on the hazards of PCBs that were being put out by the 6 plant in 1955* That's several years after you and 7 Or* Kelly are responsible for telling the plants what 8 the hazards of PCBs are, is it not? 9 A X think we discussed yesterday, sir, that the 10 interpretation of toxicity data varied, particularly 11 among people who were not familiar with the field of 12 toxicity* And I -- I can't comment on Mr* Mather's 13 statement here. I recognize some of his references. 14 Q Is this just another example of disagreement 15 within Monsanto about the hazards of PCBs? 16 A X don't agree with that expression, sir* 17 Q X see* Well, Mr* Mather clearly didn't agree 18 with what you thought about the hazards of PCBs* 19 MR. SHOEBOTBAMs Let me object to the 20 form of the question* You're asking him 21 to speculate as to Mr* Mather's opinions 22 in the 1950's* X don't think this witness 23 can speculate on that* 24 BY MR. LACEYx 25 Q Well, let me ask it this ways Mr* Mather wrote NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50556 344 1 this document, 990 through 997r in April of 1955 at the 2 Anniston, Alabama, plant and at the Krumorich plant 3 talking about PCBs,i did he not? 4 HR, SHOEBOTHAM* Again, the question 5 calls upon this witness to speculate as to 6 a document he told you he just saw, 7 BY MR. LACEY: 8 Q This document was written in April of 1955 by 9 Mr, Mather, was it not? ' 10 A The title page indicates that, sir, 11 Q And it deals with the production of Aroclors 12 and other PCB products at the two Monsanto plants that 13 made it, does it not? 14 A Tnat's what the title says, sir, 15 Q Do you have reason to believe that these 16 documents aren't genuine; that they were put in the file 17 and given to me as plants, or something about that that 18 makes them -- 19 A Oh, absolutely not, sir, 20 Q Okay, So what the title page indicates is what 21 it is? 22 A All right, sir, 23 Q You agree with me with that? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q Okay, Mow, Mr,Mather in April of 1955, NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50557 345 1 talking about the hazards of PCB, sites some things 2 about the hazards of PCBs with which you do not agree* 3 Is that correct? 4 A I -- I don't think I said that, sir* 5 Q Weil, he includes in it discussion by 6 Hr* Brown, who is the Chief, Industrial Hygiene Section 7 for the Division of the Health Department of Public 8 Welfare, the City of St* Louis; and you've previously 9 told me you don't agree with Hr* Brown* Isn't that 10 correct? 11 A With that one phrase* 12 Q Okay. 13 A And I -- I'm -- I'm sorry I didn't look at this 14 carefully enough, as I should have, to see that 15 Mr* Mather cited Mr* Brown as a reference* 16 Q Well, whether or not Mr* Mather cited Mr* Brown 17 or not really isn't relevant to the issue of whether you 18 think Mr* Mather's opinions are correct, though* And 19 what you've told me is you don't share Hr* Brown's 20 opinions about the hazards of PCBs* Correct? 21 A I -- I think you -- I think, sir, you said 22 that --* you referred to Mr* Mather's use of Mr* Brown's 23 opinion* And I can't answer that, because -24 Q He included it in his document, didn't he? 25 A Well, I just saw the document today, so I -- I NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50558 346 1 can't see how X can possibly answer a question that 2 related to -- 3 Q Well, let me ask you -- 4 HR. SHQEBOTHAMt bet's let the 5 witness finish his answer, please. 6 A -- a document that was prepared in April '55. 7 BY MR. LACEY3 3 Q Well, let me see if Z can address it this ways 9 Mr. Mather included in his document what Mr. Brown had XO to say about PCBs, did he not7 XI The internal documents, the page number are up X2 in the upper right-hand corner. They're Roman numerals, 13 I think. X4 A (Reviews document.) 15 Z do not see in this -- if these are the 1$ references in Mr. Mather's report, Z do not see 17 reference to Mr. Brown's letter. 18 Q Let me -- let me see if Z can help you. 19 Mr. Mather's report is Roman numeral XI on Hazards 20 (indicating) 21 A Correct. 22 Q And he numbers the pages by the upper 23 right-hand corner, Roman numeral XI - 1, - 2, - 3, 24 -4, -5, -6, and - 7. And if you go to Page Roman 25 numeral XI - 3, you find him citing and quoting NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50559 347 1 Hr* Brown, do you not? 2 A You confused me, sir, because you've shown me 3 Hr* Brown's report before you showed me that it was an 4 inclusion* 5 Q Well -- out it is now clear that Hr* Mather 6 does include Mr* Brown's wort in this report? 7 A Yes, sir* 8 Q Okay, And you, had you been preparing an 9 article on the hazards and toxicity of PCBs, would not 10 have relied on what Hr* Brown said, because it was 11 erroneous* Correct? 12 A As 1 have told you, in terms of using the word 13 repeatedly,* yes, sir. 14 Q So we do have here another evidence of some 15 disagreement among people in Monsanto about what 16 information ought to be included on the hazards of PCBs, 17 do we not? 16 HR* SHOEBOTHAHt I Object to the 19 question* 20 The question is argumentative* 21 The question also assumes something 22 that's not in evidence, which is some 23 disagreement between people in Monsanto 24 about the handling of PCBs* 25 You've shown Hr* Wheeler a document NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050560 348 1 for the first time today. You've sheen 2 dim a part of it first before you showed 3 him the full document. 4 You've gotten Hr, Wheeler confused. 5 You're asKing him to interpret what 6 this Hr, Mather thought in 1955 about a 7 document that he's never seen before. 8 The question is argumentative and 9 unfair, 10 MR, LACEY* I don't think it's unfair 11 to ask this witness# who was the head of 12 Industrial Hygiene# the Assistant Director 13 of the Medical Department, about the 14 opinions expressed in Monsanto on PCBs and 15 to comment on the fact that obviously not 16 all people held the same opinions, 17 MR, SHOEBOTHAM* Well# you've asked 18 him about things like that for about a day 19 and a half now. 20 But my objection is showing this 21 witness a document -- part of the document 22 in the middle of the document first# and 23 asking him to interpret a document tnat he 24 hasn't seen before today# and asking him 25 to tell you what people in 1955 thought# NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50561 349 1 on the face of the document. And 1 do 2 object to that, and I don't tnink it's 3 fair to Mr. Wheeler. 4 MR. LACEY: I see. 5 BY MR. LACEY* 6 Q I handed you the entirety of this document when 7 we started talking about Mr. Brown, didn't I? 8 A Z think you had it open to Mr. Brown's letter. 9 Q Yes, X had it open to the portion of it I 10 wanted to ask you about! because I was inquiring about 11 who Mr. Brown was, whether you knew him, and about what 12 he had to say. But I handed you the entirety of this 13 document, did I not? 14 A You aid. 15 Q At every point you've asked to review a 16 document today or yesterday. I've given you the time to 17 review it before you testified about it, haven't you? 18 MR. saOEBOTHAMt Well, Mr. Lacey, 19 this is about a seven- or eight-page -- 20 MR. LACEYi No. I'd like to have the 21 answer to the question. 22 MR. SHOEBOTBAMs No, Sir. This is 23 about a seven- or eight-page document. 24 We're trying to be cooperative and move 25 the deposition along. If you want us to NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50562 350 X take long, lengthy breaks and review 2 seven*- or eight-page documents that this 3 witness hasn't seen before# then we*11 do 4 that. 5 BY MR. LACEY* 6 Q My question to you is* At every point that you 7 wanted to stop and review a document# I've given you an 8 opportunity to do that# have X not? 9 A Yes# sir. 10 0 Okay. 11 MR. LACEY* Would you mark that as 12 the next exhibit# please. 13 MR. SHOEBOTHAMt X don't know why 14 you're smiling# Mr. Lacey. X don't think 15 your questions were fair to Mr. Wheeler. 16 MR. LACEY* May X not be happy? You 17 want me to frown? 18 MR. SHOEBOTHAMt Well# you're sitting 19 over there smiling about what you've just 20 done -- 21 MR. LACEY* MO. 22 MR. SHOEBOTHAMt -- which is ask some 23 unfair questions to Mr. Wheeler. 24 MR. LACEY* Mo. X guess what I'm 25 really smiling about# Jon# is I've got NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50563 351 1 another document I acquired independently 2 that Monsanto didn't produce to me that 3 they should have* 4 HR. SHOESGTHAMi Hell, which document 5 is that, Mr* Lacey? 6 MR, LACEYi The one we're going to 7 mark as an exhibit if you'll be quiet long 3 enough for me to get it 9 MR. SHOEBOTHAHt Hell, why don't we 10 look at it, then? IX MR. LACEYi Well, if you'll let the 12 reporter mark it, we will. 13 HR. SHOEBOTHAHt You're the one 14 talking. 15 16 (Deposition Exhibit Wheeler 2 marked 17 for identification) 18 19 THE VIDEOTECHNICIANi I need to go 20 off the record for just a moment. 21 22 (Discussion off the record, and 23 recess) 24 25 MR. SHOEBOTHAHt With regard to the NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50564 352 1 production of the documents, I think it's 2 clear that Monsanto has had outstanding 3 since January of 1985 a very comprehensive 4 Reguest for Production of Documents, 5 Mr. Lacey, so you also have not produced 6 these documents to me. 7 And this is the first time that -- as 8 you have just acknowledged, that I have 9 seen some of these documents. 10 BY MR. LACEY* IX Q Mr. Wheeler, let me show you what's been marked 12 as Wheeler Deposition Exhibit No. 2 (tendering). That 13 is a bibliography of articles and sources on PCBs, is it 14 not? ' 15 A It appears to be, sir. 16 Q Did the Medical Department maintain articles on 17 PCBs? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q Who within the Medical Department was 20 responsible tor preparing bibliographies like that 21 marked as Wheeler Deposition Exhibit No. 2? 22 A Z don't see any evidence that we in the Medical 23 Department prepared this document. 24 Q Well, who within Monsanto other than the 25 Medical Department would have been preparing NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50565 353 1 bibliographies on PCBs? 2 A These appear to re- -- relate to the 3 environmental contamination; and any such articles that 4 I reviewed# X sent copies to Hr. Papageorge as well as 5 to Bob Keller and Scott Tucker in Research* 6 Q Was it a research group# then# that was 7 responsible for developing -- 8 A X -- I -- X don't know whether it was a 9 research group or Mr* Papageorge's responsibility* 10 Q Was he a part of a research group# or what ~ 11 how did he function? 12 A I -- I thought we'd already discussed, sir# 13 that he was the former plant manager from Anniston who 14 was put in charge of the phasing-out program of Monsanto 15 of the PCBs* 16 Q Yeah* X -- I'm trying to find out what he 17 reported to; whether he was in a research group# or a 18 medical group# or -- 19 A Mo# no* He probably reported to the product 20 manager -- the product manager for PCBs* 21 Q Okay 22 A X don'tremember seeingthis# sir* 23 Q Okay* 24 A A lot of thesereferences are late *72* Do you 25 want me to go through it carefully? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50566 354 1 Q No* If you can tell me that you*re not 2 familiar with it -- 3 A I'm not familiar with it* 4 Q -- and you don't -- 5 A I don't -- I don't know who prepared it* 6 Q And you don't think it was prepared by the 7 Medical Department, however? 8 A No, sir* 9 Q I see* Okay* XO A (Tendering.) 11 Q Let me ask you a little bit about Monsanto's 12 use of independent testing laboratories* And when I 13 talk about independent testing laboratories, are you 14 familiar with what I'm talking about? 15 A We used a number of them* 16 Q And these were groups that tested products that 17 were being manufactured were or contemplated for 18 manufacture by Monsanto? 19 A Yes, sir* 20 Q These are the people who might do acute or 21 chronic toxicity studies? 22 A Yes, sirj or human skin studies, in one 23 instance* 24 Q Okay* Now, why did Monsanto use independent 25 testing laboratories for those purposes? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50567 355 X A Well, to begin with, it didn't have its own 2 testing facilities* 3 And we found it more convenient to contract 4 with such institutions as the Kettering Laboratories at 5 the University of Cincinnati Medical School* Some work 6 was done -- a limited amount of work was done at the 7 Washington University Medical School in St* Louis* 8 Haleton Laboratories in Washington did a number of 9 studies for Monsanto* The human patch test work was 10 done by a dermatologist in Philadelphia* The acute IX toxicity studies were primarily done by a small X2 independent research lab in St* Louis* 13 And then we eventually ended up having most 14 of the subacute and chronic toxicity studies done by 15 Industrial Bio-Test Laboratories in -- well, suburbs of 16 Chicago* 17 Q In the cases of some products, the studies were 18 necessary or desired for the purpose of submitting 19 information to various Government agencies* Is that 20 correct? 21 A Yes, sir* 22 Q In the case of PCBs, information obtained in 23 particular from the studies done at IBT were submitted 24 to various Government groups looking into the hazards of 25 PCBs, were they not? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50568 356 1 A The hazards of PCB in the environment? yes# 2 sir. 3 Q Well# the hazards of PCBs to -- to people who 4 might be exposed to them. 5 A But from an environmental contamination. 6 Q Well# however people might be contaminated# the 7 hazards would be the same# would it not? 8 A X don't think so# sir. The environmental 9 problem related more to ingestion of --- or the possible 10 ingestion of wildlife that had become contaminated witn 11 PCBs. The -- the type of exposure was -- the type of 12 possible exposure was quite different than any 13 industrial exposure. 14 Q Well# now# let me just make sure I'm clear on 15 this. Monsanto used Industrial Bio-Test to study 16 chronic exposure effects from PCBs? Is that right? 17 A Yes# sir. 18 Q And previous to that# Monsanto had not done any 19 chronic exposure tests at all. Correct? 20 A That's not correct. 21 Q What chronic exposure tests had Monsantodone 22 on PCBs prior to using Industrial Bio-Test? 23 A The inhalation studies with the University of 24 Cincinnati by Dr. Treon# which were published and which 25 led to tne Government-accepted threshold limit values NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50569 357 1 for an eight-hour day exposure 40 hours a week. 2 Q Which Government group accepted those? 3 A The American Conference of Governmental 4 Industrial Hygienists. 5 Q That's not a Government agency, though. 6 A It's made up of Government agency 7 representatives. 8 Q But it -- it's not a body that had the power to 9 make or set any regulations, is it? 10 A Its levels were accepted as -- as if they were 11 Government regulations. I would not, nor would any 12 other industrial hygienist, argue with a -- a -- a -- 13 a -- a Government industrial hygienist that these levels 14 were not acceptable. IS Q You -- you're not aware of anybody who ever 16 thought those levels were not appropriate? 17 A I don't recall any that applied to any products 18 that I was interested in. 19 Q You weren't aware of the fact that when NIOSH 20 performed a study, they recommended levels of exposure 21 1,000 times lower than those recommended by the 22 Governmental Hygienists Association? 23 A For what material? 24 Q PCBs. 25 A i -- I wasn't aware that they ever established NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050570 358 1 a level* 2 Q I see. Would that be surprising to you to find 3 out that the level that the National Institutes for 4 Occupational Safety and Health recommended was a 5 thousand times lower? 6 A This is a very minor point# but the number was 7 at a thousandth of the other level# not a thousand times 8 lower* 9 g Well# one-thousandth -- if I divide it into a 10 thousand parts# I'd have -- and I took one of them# then 11 I'd have one-thousandth of it# wouldn't I? 12 A Yes# sir# but that's -- it's a small point# but 13 a thousand times lower# I don't think -- 14 Q I see* Well# it was one-thousandth -- 15 A I'm not a grammarian# and I'm sorry* 16 0 Well# I -- X will confess to not being very 17 good in grammar* I -- I think ay eighth-grade -- 18 A X was not# sir# aware that NIOSH had 19 established a level* 20 Q All right* 21 A When was it# sir? 22 Q 1977. 23 A I had retired* 24 Q I see* But in -- you weren't aware of what 25 happened in that area? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50571 359 1 A I had not hoard that before in any other 2 discussion of PCBs that I've had since I retired. 3 Q I see. Mr. Shoebotham didn't share that with 4 you in the -- 5 A No, sir. 6 Q -- day or so you met with him? 7 A I just said# sir# I never heard of it. 8 Q Okay. 9 So it's your testimony that the chronic studies XO that were done by Monsanto through Industrial Bio-Test 11 related only to the -- the possibilities of 12 environmental exposure, not occupational exposure. 13 A That's right, sir. 14 Q I see.Did Monsanto ever perform a chronic 15 study related to the effects of skin exposure to PCBs? 16 A I can recall -- I -- I'm under the impression 17 there were repeated skin contact done on rabbits at 18 Kettering and possibly at IBT, but I can't recall. 19 Q You're just not sure about that? 20 A That's right, sir. 21 Q The only occupationally-related exposure that 22 you're sure that was done was a -- atmospheric or air? 23 A That's right, sir. 24 Q Okay. 25 Mow, the work that was done by IBT onchronic NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50572 350 1 exposure to PCBs and the hazards of it was submitted to 2 various Governmental agencies, was it not? 3 A Yes, sir, 4 Q And it was submitted to those agencies as part 5 of Monsanto's presentation concerning how they thought 6 PCBs ought to be handled. Correct? 7 A Bandied in what way, sir? 8 Q Well, let me -- let me make it plainer, 9 Monsanto was not in favor of Congressman Ryan's 10 proposal that PCB manufacture, sale, and distribution be 11 banned. Correct? 12 A The IBT studies were under way -- may have been 13 half-done by the time Congressman Ryan -- there was no 14 relationship between Congressman Ryan and the IBT 15 studies, 16 Q Well, just answer my question, Monsanto did 17 oppose Congressman Ryan's proposals regarding complete 18 banning of the use of PCBs, did they not? 19 A Yes, 20 Q Ana one of the things that Monsanto submitted 21 to Governmental agencies to show that in Monsanto's 22 opinion there was no need to ban the complete use of 23 PCBs were the results of the IBT chronic studies. Isn't 24 tnat correct? 25 MR. SHOESOTHAM: Objection, The NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50573 361 1 question is argumentative* Mr* Wheeler 2 just told you there's no relationship 3 between the IBT work and Congressman 4 Ryan's position# and that the XBT work was 5 begun long before Congressman Ryan took 6 his position* 7 BY MR* LACEYt 8 Q And I'm asking about whether the results of 9 those studies which came in were then submitted to 10 Governmental agencies in support of Monsanto's position 11 that there should not be a total ban on PCBs* 12 A X think you used the word "complete#* and you 13 said "total** The -- there was submitted to the 14 Government agencies to indicate that there were data 15 that would put ~ which would permit them to evaluate 16 the potential of the PCBs getting in the food chain* 17 How# in connection with the complete ban# they 18 were used to indicate that# as X said earlier today# the 19 complete ban of PCB use would have caused a terrible 20 economic turmoil* 21 And a subsequent Government task force and I 22 don't know what --> who the representatives were on that 23 task force -- agreed that the dielectric and -- well# 24 the dielectric# transformer# and capacitor uses should 25 continue until there were suitable substitutes NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50574 362 X available* Now, to that extent, I would say the ID- -- 2 the 13T studies may well have been used by the 3 appropriate Government agencies to indicate that this 4 was not a -- a crisis situation, but what the -- uses in 5 the dielectric area could continue* 6 Q Simply, though, if I understand your answer, 7 the short answer is the studies were submitted by 3 Monsanto to various Government agencies in connection 9 with their position on what ought to be done with PCBs* XO Correct? XX A Yes, sir. 12 Q Okay 13 It*s important that a reputable testing 14 laboratory be selected, is it not, for independent 15 testing? 16 A Oh, yes, sir* 17 Q And it's important that the tests that are 18 conducted be very thorough and very accurate, is it not? 19 A Yes, sir* 20 Q It's important, infact, to be very careful in 21 deciding exactly how to conduct the tests, and what 22 products to test, and for what duration? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q It's importantthat eachparticular test be 25 properly managed throughout the course of the test? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050575 363 1 A Yes, sir* 2 Q It's important that theresults hereported 3 accurately and precisely? 4 A Yes, sir* 5 Q In the case of I3T, were efforts made to 6 monitor their work? 7 A The progress of the work was monitored; yes, 8 sir* 9 Q were you personally involved in that progress 10 monitoring? 11 A On occasion, I either visited their labs or 12 their people came to St* Louis to update us on the 13 status of the reports* As you recall, some were 90-day 14 studies, some were three months, et cetera* 15 Q And some went on out to two years? 16 A Beg your pardon? 17 Q Some went on out to two years, did they not? 18 A Oh, yes, sir. 19 Q When you went to IB? to monitor the progress of 20 the studies, did you go and physically view the research 21 animals? 22 A Hot in all cases* I did in some cases* 23 Q I see* Did you attempt to determine if they 24 were being properly fed, properly cared for, so forth? 25 A It occurred to me they were* NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50576 364 1 Q When you say it occurred to you, did you go to 2 look for that? 3 A I -- I shouldn't have worded the -- my 4 observation would indicate that they were* 5 Q Okay. 6 A I'm sorry 1 said"occurred.* I don't know what 7 word I meant. 8 Q Okay. Well, you -- you did go and look, then? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q All right. Andin many cases afterthese 11 studies were done, Monsanto would actually keep parts of 12 the animals that might have been prepared on slides or 13 things like that, would they not? 14 A They did for purposes of the work our 15 laboratory was doing in determining the levels of the 16 PCBs in the various tissues and in the various species 17 of animals. 18 When you say "slides* -- 19 Q Maybe that's not the right word, but - 20 A Ho. 21 Q Tissue samples? Is that - 22 A "Tissue samples" would be a better word, sir. 23 Q Okay. They're not all mounted on little bitty 24 microscope slides? 25 A That -- that's a slide. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50577 365 1 Q Okay. And -- and a tissue sample is -- 2 A Is a tissue that's frozen. It can he a liver, 2 or a whole bird, or -- 4 Q Or it could be a big piece? 5 A Oh, yes; or -- 6 Q Okay. 7 A -- or a feather, or -- 8 Q Okay. I understand now. Somehow I -- I had 9 the picture they were all in little bitty slides, but it 10 could be in bigger hunks somehow. 11 A Well, we had hunks, I guess, that required 12 refrigerators that might cover a quarter of this room. 13 Q A walk-in type refrigerator? 14 A I think they may not have used walk-in, but 15 they had enough of them to fill this kind of anarea. 16 Q Okay. And for the review thatMonsanto did, 17 they would carefully inventory and keep up with those 18 body parts, or tissues, or whatever they were? 19 A Until there could be some agreement that they 20 had looked at enough samples that were representative. 21 Q In connection with that, Monsanto would -- 22 Monsanto would have available to itself materials with 23 which they could verify readings of what the materials 24 showed? I mean, if you'd look at it and say, "This 25 shows a cancer," or, "This doesn't show a cancer"? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50578 366 1 A Monsanto didn't have that capability. 2 Q Did not nave that capability? 3 A Mo. You're talking now about histopatbologyr 4 and we did not have that capability. S Q X see. 6 A Me -- I say *we." I'm -- I'm not even sure 7 that Dr. Kelly would agree that he's a pathologist. 8 Q Okay. Did Monsanto have the materials that a 9 person who was qualified could look at and try to XO evaluate these different body parts theygot? 11 A The body parts? Yes, sir. 12 Q I mean# that's what you --> that's what you 13 could get one of those specialized people to look at and 14 tell you what it is? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q Okay. 17 A Although i -- i -- i can't answer that 18 correctly, sir, because I don't know whether the tissues 19 to be examined histopathologically should be taken -- 20 pernaps frozen, but taken directly after removal from 21 the animal and not after the tissue has been stored for 22 several months. 23 Q Okay. And so you don't know whether or not it 24 would be acceptable to take a slice of amaterial and -- 25 A X don't know, sir. NELLMCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50579 367 1 Q Okay* la addition to actually looking at 2 tissue samples, some of these studies would involve 3 counting the number of animals that got sick at what 4 point in time and that sort of thing, would it not? 5 A Yes, sir* 6 Q Figuring out how much they weighed, and how 7 much they ate, and all that type of ~ 8 A Yes, sir* 9 Q And it is very important that all that data be 10 accurate for the study to bemeaningful, is itnot? 11 A Yes, sir* 12 Q As a practical matter, for a study of the sort 13 that was done with PCBs on chronic matters, it's 14 important that the laboratory's employees be accurately 15 well-trained to do their jobs well? 16 A Yes, sir* 17 Q That the testing procedures becorrect and 18 accurate and without fault or problem? 19 A Yes, and in this case preapproved by the 20 toxicologists of the Food and Drug Administration and 21 the -- x think the toxicologists in the Agricultural 22 Department who are interested in fish and wildlife* 23 Q Okay* So the PCBs study, then, were of 24 interest to both the Agriculture Department and the FDA? 25 A Yes, and we consulted completely with them with NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050580 368 1 the appropriate protocols after we had consulted with 2 Industrial Bio-Test about what the studies should be; 3 and we added some additional studies at the request of 4 the Pood and Drug Administration and/or the Fish and 5 Wildlife people. And they knew from the beginning that $ the Industrial Bio-Test Laboratory was doing the work, 7 Q And it -- it would be important to you and to 8 the Government and even to the public that it be done 9 right# because different people are going to rely on 10 these results* 11 A That's right* 12 Q It's important that when the studies are 13 discussed or reported upon in literature -- for example# 14 to the extent studies were reported in Technical 15 Bulletins -- that the reports be accurate about what the 16 results of the studies were? 17 A Yes, sir, 18 Q A study that was a 24-month study should- run 19 the entire 24 months -- 20 A Yes# sir, 21 Q -- and so on and so forth. Correct? 22 A I beg your pardon? 23 Q And -- and if it were an 18-month study# it 24 should run 18 months? I mean# each study should run its 23 stated term? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50581 369 1 A Yes, sir* 2 Q There shouldn't he any replacement or animals 3 during the course or the study. If one dies, you 4 shouldn't just substitute another one in, should you? 5 A No, sir, because that would not represent 6 the -- a 24-month feeding for that particular animal. 7 Q Data on matters like body weights, blood test 8 results, urine test results, et cetera, should only be 9 reported as what was actually measured, not anything 10 else. Correct? 11 A Not anything else? 12 Q Yes. It should be only be what was actually 13 measured or sampled. 14 A If that's what they were reporting, yes, sir, 15 Q i mean, one should not just estimate 16 material -- 17 A No. No, sir. 18 Q Okay. 19 A We're talking aboutscientific data. 20 Q And it's important that what's -- what's 21 reported be done accurately? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q And, for example, just to make my point clear, 24 if we had a lab technician who accidentally failed to 25 take a blood sample from one of the animals when they NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50582 370 1 were supposed to, and they recognized that two weeks 2 later, it wouldn't he appropriate to go back and just 3 estimate a number and put it in? 4 A Oh, no, sir, 5 Q yeah. If there was data --* I guess to be 6 gramatically correct, if there were data -- I'll do the 7 best 1 can, 3 A I was about to correct you, sir, 9 Q Okay, If -- if there were data -- 10 A Yes, 11 Q -- that was accidentally omitted, it would be 12 totally inappropriate at a later date to put it ini and 13 if you did, it might affect the reliability of the 14 outcome of the test. Isn't that correct? 15 A If -- if I understand your -- I don't 16 understand your question -- 17 Q Let me ask it another way, 18 A Please do, 19 Q I asked you before whether it would be 20 appropriate to fill in or estimate data if you didn't 21 measure it, and you said, "No," 22 A Yeah, that's right, sir, 23 Q If someone were to fill in data because they 24 didn't measure it, that could affect the reliability or 25 the results of the test, since it wasn't actually NELLMCCALLUM& ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50583 371 1 measured dataf and -- 2 A Definitely* I'm glad you rephrased the 3 question, because I had a different answer that -4 Q Okay* 5 A -- wouldn't have been appropriate* 6 Q Okay* 7 MR. SHOEBOTHAHi Let's look for a 8 place to give Mr* Wheeler a break in here 9 at some point* We've now been at it for 10 about an hour and 15 minutes* 11 MR* LACEYi I'm real close to the 12 conclusion of this - 13 MR* SHOEBOTHAMs Okay. 14 MR* LACEYs -- series of questions 15 right here* 16 BY MR. LACEYi 17 Q I believe you previously told me that 18 Mr* Wright was at IBT, and then came back to Monsanto 19 and had some sort of difficulty as a result of his work 20 at IBT7 Is that correct? 21 A Yes, sir* 22 Q Did that difficulty or any possibility of it 23 arise before you left Monsanto? 24 A Not to my recollection. 25 q Okay* Prior to your leaving Monsanto, were NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50584 372 1 there any reservations in anyone's mind at Monsanto 2 about the reliability of the IBT work? 3 A Not that I know of. 4 Q Okay. Did Monsanto make any changes in the way 5 it operated or worked with IB? after Paul Wright came to 6 Monsanto as the Manager of Toxicology? 7 A Not that I'm aware of. 8 Q Do you know what particular responsibilities 9 Mr. Wright had in the long-term studies that were being 10 done by IBT for Monsanto? And I mean in particular 11 whether he was working with dogs or with chickens or 12 with rats or anything like that. 13 A No, sir. 14 Q Okay. 15 MR. DACEYs Why don't we just take a 15 break right there. 17 THE VIDEOTECHNICIANi We're off the 13 record. 19 20 (Recess) 21 22 THE VIDBOTECHNICIANt We've been off 23 the record for a short break. We're now 24 back on the record. The time is 3*49 p.m. 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50585 373 1 BY MR. LACEY t 2 Q Me. Wheeler, are you familiar with what 3 impurities were contained within Monsanto's Arodors? 4 A X don't recall knowing of any impurities until 5 the question of the environmental contamination came up. 6 Q What impurities were discovered in PCBs when 7 that question came up? 8 A X don't recall the numbers. There were -- 9 there were was, X think, a report that I did see from 10 our analytical group that there was one or two parts per XX million of the furans. X2 Q What about dioxins? X know you mentioned that 13 in 2,4,5-T dioxin was a contaminant. Was dioxin a 14 contaminant in the PCB products? 15 A X've never seen any reference that it was. 16 One other point X might mention) I -- I do 17 recall there was some work in Utrecht that indicated the 18 German and French production had some furans in -- 19 again, in the few parts per million range/ but there was 20 none in the Monsanto product. 21 Q Well, X guess I'm confused. Are you telling me 22 you think Monsanto's PCBs did or did not have furans in 23 them? 24 A According to the data that was published by 25 them, it did not. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50586 37 4 1 Q And according to your own in-house data? 2 A As the methods of definition became more 3 specific# 1 think there was one or two parts per million 4 that may have been found* S Q Okay* PCSs were known as Aroclor* That's a 6 known name that Monsanto used for them? 7 A It was a Monsanto trademark name; yes# sir* 8 Q The name Askarel was used as a generic name for 9 PCSs that were used in dielectric uses# were -- was it 10 not? 11 A That's my understanding# sir* 12 Q Would the users, people like Westinghouse and 13 General Electric# have as good of information as 14 Monsanto about what the impurities in PCBs used as 15 dielectrics were? 16 A I have -- 1 don't know that there were any 17 impurities that we knew of or that that knew of -- that 18 they knew of* 19 Q Well# that's really not my question* My 20 question iss Would -- would people like Westinghouse 21 and General Electric and TVA and Ford and other 22 customers be in as good a position as Monsanto to know 23 about the impurities in PCQ products supplied by 24 Monsanto? 25 A To my knowledge# there were no impurities* NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50587 375 1 Q No. You're missing my question. My -- my 2 question deals witn their -- with the ability or 3 customers to be Knowledgeable about impurities* if there 4 were any. And I'm trying to find out who*s in a better S position to be Knowledgeable about impurities; whether 6 it's Monsanto as the manufacturer/seller* or these 7 people who were customers. 8 A Z don't Know what their capabilities were. 9 Q So it's possible they may have been as capable 10 as Monsanto of determining impurities? 11 A Or perhaps more so. 12 Q was it ever a matter of importance to Monsanto 13 to provide customers with information on the impurities* 14 if any* in PCBs? 15 A Z would thinh it was Monsanto's responsibility 16 to pro- -- to provide materials that fit definite 17 specifications. And if there were impurities* then that 18 would not be within the specifications. 19 Q Did Monsanto undertake to advise its customers 20 wnen it discovered that there were furans in its PCBs 21 present as impurities? 22 A Z don't Know* sir. 23 Q But you're telling me you think that Monsanto 24 should have. 25 A Z don't Know* because they -- again* my NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50588 376 1 recollection is that the concentrations were so 2 insignifleant that they were meaningless. 3 Q Let iae show you a letter marked 23565 from you 4 to Otis Fancner dated May 25th, 1970. And I want to 5 direct your attention to the second paragraph 6 (tendering) 7 A (Reviews document*) 8 Yes, sir. 9 Q There's a reference in that document to 10 providing a sample of Aroclor that has been "cleaned 11 up." What does that mean? 12 A 1 don't have any knowledge, sir, at this point. 13 Q You wrote the letter, but you don't now 14 remember what it means? 15 A No, because I don't remember the letter. 16 Q I see. Do you recall whether at any point in 17 time Monsanto tried to start removing the impurities 18 that had previously been in its PCBs? 19 A I wasn't aware, sir, that there were 20 impurities. Tne -- any efforts I -- my -- my thought is 21 that any efforts -- and maybe the word "cleaned up" is 22 not correct -- was to narrow the presence of the various 23 isomers so that a 1242 was a 1242 with smaller 24 percentages of the other isomers. 25 Q And that's what you think you meant by "cleaned NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50589 377 1 up#* or that's just a guess at this point? Do you know? 2 A That's -- that's just a guess -- 3 Q Okay* 4 A -- or a speculation* 5 Q Let me show you a letter dated September 9th# 6 1968# to you from Otis Fancher with an attachment# the 7 group being numbered 22769 through 22791 (tendering)* 8 I don't really have any detailed questions 9 about the document* 1 just want to confirm that that -- 10 you were the person who was communicating with IBT in 11 that time frame about performing studies for Monsanto* 12 A It would appear that that's soj yes# sir* 13 Q And before -- 14 A It's my recollection that 1 was* 15 Q And before studies were done# you obtained bids 16 on what the cost would be? 17 A Yes# sir* 18 Q And had established protocols! and I believe 19 that's what the attachment document is* 20 A Yes# sir* 21 Q Were you the one who was actually reviewing and 22 approving the protocols? 23 A Wo# sir* 24 Q Who in Monsanto was responsible for reviewing 25 and approving the protocols for the IBT studies? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050590 378 1 A One individual would be Dr. Kelly. But. as 1 2 told you earlier, sir. we cleared these protocols with 3 the Food and Drug Administration and other agencies. 4 Q Were you the one who was sending these matters 5 to the Food and Drug Administration and receiving their 6 comments and incorporating them into the protocols? 7 A It's more my recollection that I -- I visited 8 the agencies either with Dr. Kelly or with someone from 9 Industrial Bio-Test Laboratories for personal 10 discussions so that we could agree to make additions if 11 they thought they were advisable, or to change the 12 levels that were being used, et cetera. 13 Q By the way. "protocol" is just a description of 14 the steps by which the study is going to be carried out. 15 is it not? 16 A res. sir. 17 Q Okay. 18 Let me show you a letter. Document 23544. from 19 you to Dr. Calandra dated December 6th. 1968. And this 20 indicates the sharing of information between yourself 21 and Dr. Calandra with regard to potential problems of 22 PCBs and the studies of them, does it not (tendering)? 23 A (Reviews document.) 24 res. sir. 25 Q Okay. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50591 379 1 A (Tendering.) 2 Q Let me show you a letter dated December 20th# 3 1958# from you to Dr. Calandra# Document 22833-34# 4 showing where you authorized some specific studies and 5 discussed pricing considerations. Is that correct 6 (tendering)? 7 A (Reviews document.) 8 Yes# sir. 9 Q l*m sorry? 10 A Yes# sir. IX Q Okay. And you would actually take part in 12 trying to analyze whether a particular level of doses or 13 number of doses was appropriate. And I want to show you 14 in reference to that a letter of December 20# 1988# from 15 you to Dr. Calandra# Document 23545-46# and ask you if 16 that's correct (tendering). 17 A (Reviews document.) 18 A Yes# sir (tendering). 19 Q Okay. And from time to time Industrial 20 Bio-Test would make suggestions to Monsanto about how to 21 proceed with a study; and# in particular# I'm going to 22 direct your attention to a January 17th# 1969# letter 23 from Otis Fancher to you# Document 23548-549 24 (tendering) 25 A (Reviews document.) NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50592 380 1 Yes, sir (tendering) 2 Q In January of 1959, you suggested to 3 Or* Fancher of ZBT the -- an inclusion of controls in 4 one of their tests* 1 want to direct your attention to 5 Document 22831 (tendering)* Is that correct? 6 A (Reviews document*) 7 Yes, sir (tendering) 8 Q Okay* You even invited Dr* Calandra of 9 Industrial Bio-Test to join you on some trips to Europe, 10 or on a trip to Europe, along with others, to meet with 11 various people about PCBs* I direct your attention to a 12 letter of April 8th, 1969, to Dr* Calandra, Document 13 22330, and ask if that's correct (tendering)* 14 A I sure don't remember that. I don't remember 15 ever asking Dr. Calandra to -- to accompany us to 16 Europe* 17 Q why don't you take a look at that* 18 A (Reviews document.) 19 Oh, I see* I -- apparently he was planning a 20 trip co Europe at about the tame same* 21 Q And -- and you invited him to join you in 22 meeting -- 23 A I -- I think I said it would be fortunate if we 24 could combine our meetings, did I not, at the last 25 paragraph (tendering)? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50593 381 1 Q Yes* You actually indicate you would like for 2 him to join you on the calls, or for the whole 3 itinerary* That meant the entire trip, didn't it 4 (tendering)? 5 A (Reviews document*) 6 I said, "It sure would he fortunate and very 7 pleasant if your proposed trip to Europe would allow you 8 to join us on any of the calls or for the whole 9 itinerary* I -- I wouldn't designate that as an 10 invitation, which I think was the word you used 11 (tendering) 12 Q z see. In fact, Dr* Calandra was invited on a 13 number of occasions to assist Monsanto in making 14 presentations about PCBs and their hazard to various 15 groups, both scientific and Governmental, wasn't he? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q One of the things that you always had to try to 18 control in doing the tests through IBT was the budgeting 19 of those tests* And I direct your attention to a letter 20 of April 15th, 1969, to Dr* Calandra, Document 21 22571-752, and ask you if that's not correct 22 (tendering) 23 A (Reviews document*) 24 Yes, sir (tendering)* 25 Q In fact, your budget constraints on performing NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50594 382 1 testing were relatively stringent, were they not? 2 A I wouldn't classify them as stringent! no, sir* 3 Q Let me show you a letter dated June 12th, 1969, 4 from yourself to Dr* Fancher, Document 22765 through 5 22766 (tendering), and ask you if it isn't true you even 6 suggested the specific hilling schedule so you could 7 time when the hills came in, in accordance with whatever 8 amount of money you'd been allocated for the study* 9 A (Reviews document*) 10 Zf you are implying that there were constraints 11 as to when the money would be paid, Z -- these letters 12 would say yes, there were constraints that did not have 13 any bearing on the completeness of the studies* 14 Q Hell, there were constraints on how much money 15 you could even spend on these toxicity studies, were 16 there not? 17 A There were monies that were agreed on when the 13 original protocols were developed, and these were not 19 set in stone* 20 Q No* Z -- Z didn't ask my question very well, Z 21 see* What Z mean is not -- not that you and industrial 22 Bio-Test agreed upon a price for the study at the outset 23 of the study* We've already established that* 24 What Z mean is that within Monsanto, the amount 25 of money that your department had to spend on studies NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50595 363 1 generally was limited, was it not? 2 A Limited only by the type of data that needed to 3 be developed. 4 Q Hell, isn't it a fact that you had to schedule 5 tests in part based on whether you could get budget 6 money for the testing? 7 A Hot in connection with the PCBs, no, sir* 8 Q in ~ in connection with other products, but 9 not PCBs? That's the way it worked? 10 A He may have had to apply a little more 11 persuasion on some other materials than we did with the 12 PCBs. 13 Q Hell, why did PCBs get such special treatment? 14 A Because we had recognized, as did management, 15 that this was a series of compounds that deserved 16 expenditures of money to get the appropriate answers* 17 THE WITNESS! There's a fly in here* 18 Come fly with me* 19 BY MR. LACEY! 20 Q The studies that Industrial Bio-Test did with 21 regard to rats indicated problems with liver effects, 22 did they not? And I direct your attention to Otis 23 Rancher's letter of October 10th, 1969, to you. Document 24 22531 through -533 (tendering)* 25 A (Reviews document*) NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50596 384 1 Excuse me. And what was your question, sir? 2 Q The rat study work done by 13T for Monsanto 3 showed liver problems, did it not? 4 A At some levels o feedings, yes, sir* 5 Q in fact, Monsanto was both surprised at the 6 apparent toxicity of --- or it was surprised at the 7 apparent toxicity of PCBs in rats, dogs, and chickens, 8 was it not? And I direct your attention to a letter of 9 March 4th, 1970, from yourself to Dr* Calandra, Document 10 23534-35 (tendering), in particular to Paragraph No* 2 11 that talks about that topic* 12 A (Reviews document*) 13 I've read the paragraph, sir* 14 Q And you and Monsanto were surprised at the 15 toxicity that showed up for your Aroclor products in all 16 of the animals being studied, were you not? 17 A X don't think that's quite correct* I think we 18 were surprised to find effects at some of the lower 19 levels that we had not -- that we would not have 20 anticipated from the -- any earlier work done on the 21 PCBs* 22 Q And what that indicated that -- was that PCBs 23 were more toxic than you had previously thought, wasn't 24 it? 25 A This data? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50597 383 1 Q Yes. 2 A These data? It indicated that by the ingestion 3 route in animals* these materials were more toxic than 4 we would have expected. 5 Q And* of course* this isinformationthat's 6 first coming to light in Harch of 1970. Correct? 7 A Yes* sir. 3 Q And the reason the information is not coming to 9 light before March of 1970 is that Monsanto had not XO commissioned any chronic toxicity studies for PCBs of IX the type it was doing here earlier? X2 A We had not conducted ingestion studies earlier. 13 That's correct. X4 Q Had you done that* you would have had this XS information about the higher-than-anticipated toxicity 16 earlier* would you not? 17 A From the standpoint of possible ingestion* yes* 18 sir. 19 Q And you could have then taken that information 20 into account in providing information on the safe 21 handling and toxicity. Correct? 22 A I'm not sure that's the case. 23 Q Don't you think you would have taken that 24 information into account? A We would have evaluated it* and I think we NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50598 3 86 1 would have had to decide whether the -- there were data 2 available that we needed to obtain to show whether the 3 metabolic pathway was the same regardless of whether the 4 entry to the body was inhalation# skin absorption# or 5 ingestion. 6 Q Well# workmen in the workplace can ingest PCBs# 7 can they not? 8 A X beg your pardon? 9 Q I said# workmen in the workplace can ingest 10 PCBs# can they not? 11 A Workmen# X guess# in any -* in any environment 12 can ingest what they're working with# if they're so 13 inclined. 14 Q Well# X don't mean to intentionally. 15 One can get it on their hands# and in smoking a 16 cigarette have it come in through that route# get it in 17 the mouth. One can# through the hands# in handling food 18 and in other ways# putting the hands to the face and 19 mouth# ingest PCBSs# can they not? 20 A Very limited quantities# yes# sir. 21 Q And what these tests were showing is that PCBs 22 were having toxic effects by the ingestion route at 23 lower levels than Monsanto had anticipated. Isn't that 24 correct? 25 A Yes, sir. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50599 3 67 1 Q Okay. 2 THE WITNESS* Should we stop, Jon, so 3 you can get on another airplane? 4 HR. SHOEBOTHAM* That's -- it*8 Up to 5 Mr. Lacey at this point. 6 HR. LACEY* What -- what time's your 7 flight, Jon? S MR. SHOEBOTHAM* Z have a 5*49 9 flight. I think I probably need to leave 10 here about 4*30 to make that, but I don*t 11 want to interfere with you in any way. 12 MR. LACEY* Can we agree that the 13 documents that have his name but not his 14 signature, that came out of Monsanto's 15 files with the SCM numbers, were written 1$ by him and sent out? 17 MR. SHOEBOTHAM* Why don't you just 16 ask him? It won't take but a minute. 19 MR. LACEY* Okay. 20 MR. SHOEBOTHAM* I'd be -- 21 THE WITNESS* Could I -- 22 MR. SHOEBOTHAM* I'd be -- 23 THE WITNESS* Could X go ahead and 24 read through them quickly for you? 25 MR. SHOEBOTHAM* Yeah. I'd be afraid NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050600 388 1 to do it that the other -- 2 MR. LACEY* Okay. 3 MR* SHOEBOTHAH* -- jUSt as a 4 blanket -- 5 MR. LACEYt Okay. 6 BY MR. LACEY* 7 Q This is -- this is a document that you -- a 8 letter that you prepared and sent to Dr. Fancher, is it 9 not? And I'm referring to Document 23521 through 23523. 10 Is that correct? 11 HR. SHOEBOTHAH* Hr. Wheeler, I want 12 to take your time, and don't -- in looking 13 through these, and -- 14 THE WITNESS* Okay. 15 MR. SHOEBOTHAM* -- don't be 16 concerned about my schedule* 17 THE WITNESS* Okay. I -- I just 18 posed the question. 19 HR. SHOEBOTHAH* All right. I 20 appreciate your concern, but I -- I think 21 it's more important that you take your 22 time and look at these documents. 23 A (Reviews documents.) 24 THE WITNESS* Do you want to read 25 this (indicating)? It relates to Public NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050601 389 1 Relations* and -- 2 HR* SHOEBOTHAM* I've seen that one* 3 A I don't remember that the Hew_York Times gave 4 us sucn nice coverage* 5 BY MR* LACEYt 6 Q You -- you did send that out? 7 A Obviously* sir* It was an attachment to a 8 letter that X sent out (tendering)* 9 Q Okay* 10 HR* SBOEBOTHAHt Could we get the 11 document number? 12 HR. LACEY: It was 23521 through 13 23523. 14 Are you all packed so you can just 15 hit the road? 16 HR. SH0L30THAH: Uh-huh. 17 I have a series of about ten 18 questions to ask him* If you want me to 19 go on ahead and do that while you look 20 through the documents -- 21 MR. LACEY I Let me just -- 22 HR* SHQEBOTHAM* -- I'll be 23 glad to* or -- 24 MR, LACEY* Let me just finish 25 MR* SHOEBOTBAMi -- or at your NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50602 3 90 1 convenience* 2 MR. LACEY* I've got about six left 3 here* 4 BY MR. LACEY* 5 Q Mas it customary for IBT to provide you and 6 Monsanto with drafts of their proposed results for your 7 comment and review before they were finalized? 8 A Mot for any of the interim reports* I believe 9 the final reports were sent to us* 10 Q Let me show you a letter dated April 28th, 11 1972# from you to Dr* Otis Fancher# Document 23589 12 through 23590 (tendering)# in which you make 13 recommendations regarding what you would like to see in 14 the final study* Is that correct? 15 A Z'll have to read it# sir* 16 (Reviews document*) 17 Yes# sir* 18 Q And let me show you another document# 23591# 19 which is a handwritten letter apparently from Otis 20 Fancher to you (tendering)# transmitting draft studies. 21 And I don't know if that letter came before the one you 22 just looked at or after} but that is a letter from 23 Dr* Fancher to you# submitting draft studies for your 24 comments# review# and proposed changes* Correct? 25 A (Reviews document*) NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050603 391 1 Yes, sir. 2 Q And -- and that was a customary practice as 3 between Monsanto and 1ST, was it not, for you as tne 4 recipient of the study to see the drafts of the studies 5 for your comments, review, and proposed changes before 6 the final studies were actually submitted to you? 7 A To pick up such items as are mentioned here, 8 reference to other published data; no -- no intent to -- 9 and no indication that we suggested the -- their 10 discussion and the meaning of their results. 11 Q Old you retain copies in the permanent files of 12 those draft studies that were sent to you, along with 13 whatever proposed changes you suggested? 14 A Z don't recall (tendering) 15 Q Did you have a practice of destroying the 16 drafts? 17 A I expect we did. 18 Q X see. So that all that you would then have in 19 your files are the final studies that would incorporate 20 whatever changes you had suggested? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q Now, I believe you had told me inFebruary of 23 1975 you were assigned to a specific -- thislaboratory 24 work task or whatever? 25 A Yes, sir. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050604 392 1 Q And let me show you a letter dated April 13th, 2 1975, from Dr. Calandra to Dr. Roush with a notation of 3 a copy to you. It*s Document 22745, with attachments 4 22746 through 22750 (tendering). I would just ask if 5 that's something that by the time it got to you was 6 still within your area of interest, or whether that 7 wasn't something that was of concern to you by that time 8 because of your reassignment. 9 A (Reviews document.) 10 I -- I would not have the expertise to 11 participate in a discussion which he refers to here as 12 to the carcinogenic properties (tendering) 13 Q Okay. So that was sort of a courtesy copy that 14 came to youj not for any -- 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q -- real consideration or comment by you? 17 A That's right, sir. 18 MR. LACEY* Jon, I -- I've got more 19 questions that I could ask. But let me 20 let you get your questions in, so we can, 21 in view of the time, try to -- 22 MR. SHOES OTHAI4; Okay. 23 MR. LACEY* -- get this completed. 24 MR. SHOEBOTHAM* I'd like to see just 25 one document, the English document. I NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050605 393 1 think it's 17- -- or 18731. And I have 2 just a few questions for Hr. Wheeler about 3 that document. 4 HE. LACEY* (Tendering.) 5 HE. SHOEBOTUAM* Great. Thank you. 6 7 8 9 10 QUESTIONS BY HE. SHOEBOTHAMt 11 Q Hr. Wheeler* obviously I'm Jon Shoebotham, and 12 we've met before; and I represent Monsanto nere today. 13 Let me hand you now a document that you talked 14 with Hr. Lacey about. It's SCM 016731 (tendering)* and 15 let me ask you to examine that. 16 Why don't you do this* You've talked with 17 Hr. Lacey about that document. Why don't you hold it up 18 to the camera so the Jury can see the front cover of 19 that document and will know what document we're talking 20 about? 21 A (Complying.) 22 Q Okay. My question to youis* Did you have any 23 involvement at all in tne preparation of that document? 24 A No* sir. 25 Q Do you know whopreparedit* whatindividuals NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050606 394 X prepared it? 2 A No, sir. 3 Q Do you know when that document was prepared? 4 A I don't see any indication of a date# sir. 5 Q Do you know of your own personal knowledge when 6 it was prepared? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q Have you ever seen that document before 9 Mr* Lacey handed it to you at the deposition here 10 earlier today? IX A No, sir. 12 Q Do you know what the purpose of the preparation 13 of that document was? Do you know why it was prepared? 14 A No, sir. 15 Q Do you know to whom that document was sent? 16 A Ho, sir. 17 Q Do you know what customers that document might 18 have -- might or might not have been sent to? 19 A Ho, sir. 20 Q Do you know whether or not it was sent to 21 customers in one particular country or part of the 22 world. even? 23 A Ho, sir. 24 Q Do you know, for example, whether or not that 23 document was sent to Monsanto customers in Sweden? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050607 395 1 A No, sir* 2 Q Do you know whether or not it was sent to 3 particular plants in Sweden? 4 A No, sir* 5 Q Hr* Wife el er, do you -- do you know whether or 6 not this document was sent to the plant in Sweden that 7 you testified earlier in the day that you visited? 8 A I --* I don't understand thequestion* 9 Q All right* Do you know whether or not this 10 document that you have in your hands here --* do you know 11 whether or not that was sent to the plant in Sweden that 12 you visited? 13 A No, sir* 14 Q Okay* Thank you* 15 MR* SHOEBOTHAMs No further questions 16 at this time* 17 18 19 20 21 QUESTIONS BY MR, LACEYi 22 Q I have just a couple of follow-up questions on 23 that, Mr* Wheeler* 24 Would you just hold that document up again so 25 that we can get it on camera? NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050608 396 X A Can Z do this (complying)? 2 Q That's fine, if you wish. I don't really care. 3 There is no doubt in your mind that document 4 was prepared by Monsanto employees, is there? 5 A No, sir. 6 Q That's got the big "a" and "Monsanto* right 7 down there on the front of it, doesn't it? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q There is no doubt that document was prepared in 10 connection with and to advise people of the toxicology 11 and safe handling of Monsanto's Aroclors, is there? 12 A Prepared by the people of Monsanto in Great 13 Britain. 14 Q well, Z thought you testified you didn't know 15 who prepared it* 16 A Z don't, sir, but -- Z -- X'rasorry. Z-- Z -- 17 again, x -- X'm trying to be responsive. Z -- Z don't 18 want to speculate, and Z do not know. 19 Q Okay. But the one thing we can be sure of is 20 it was prepared by Monsanto employees about Monsanto's 21 PC3 products? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 0 And there wasn't any substantive difference 24 between Aroclor 1242 produced in England and Aroclor 25 1242 produced in Illinois and Aroclor 1242 produced in NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMON0050609 397 1 Anni3ton# Alabama# was there? 2 A Hot to my knowledge# sir* 3 Q The proper information for the toxicology and 4 safe handling of Monsanto Arodors would be the same 3 wherever the products were being produced and wherever 6 they were being sold# wouldn't they? 7 A Yes# sir. 8 Q The standards don't vary from country to 9 country or business to business# do they? 10 A Ho# sir. 11 Q And the desire ofMonsanto toprovide effective 12 information to all of its customers about PCB products# 13 their toxicology# and their safe handling doesn't vary 14 from country to country or customer to customer# does 15 it? 16 A The policy? 17 Q The desire ofMonsanto toprovide all of their 18 customers with appropriate information on toxicology and 19 safe handling of PCBs does not vary from country to 20 country or customer to customer# does it? 21 A I don't know what the policy was in -- in Great 22 Britain. I can only speak for the U. S. 23 Q I'm not talking about the policy# and let me 24 ask -- 25 A Z beg your pardon# sir. I think you said NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50610 398 1 "policy*" 2 Q Well, let me -- let me ask it -- what I mean, 3 then. 4 The desire of Monsanto and, in particular, the 5 desire of the Medical Department of Monsanto, which was 6 charged with providing customers with information on 7 toxicology and safe handling worldwide, including Great 8 Britain -- isn't that correct? 9 A The -- the -- again, I think you've gotten -- 10 Q Well, let -- let me try -- let me try - 11 A ~ a question that I can't answer "yes" or 12 "no." 13 Q Fine. Well, let me make it where you can 14 answer "yes" or "no." 15 It was the obligation and the charge of the 16 Monsanto Medical Department that resided in St. Louis, 17 Missouri, to determine what was told to customers 18 worldwide about the safe handling and toxicology of 19 peas. Correct? 20 A I'm not sure that's correct, sir. 21 Q I see. Well, who was it, then, to your 22 knowledge, that was responsible for advising customers 23 in Great Britain about the toxicology and safe handling 24 of PCBs? 25 A The people in Great Britain, sir. NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50611 399 1 Q And they were not subject to review by the 2 Medical Department in St* Louis? 3 A That's right* sir* 4 HR, LACEYi Ho further questions* 5 THE VIDEOTECHNICIANS Okay, That 6 concludes the deposition of Hr. Elmer P, 7 Wheeler. The time is 4*31 p.m. 8 9 (The deposition was concluded 10 at 4i31 p.m.) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 ******* 16 19 20 21 22 23 24 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50612 400 1 THE STATE OF 2 * * 3 COUNTY OP * 4 5 I, ELMER P. WHEELER, Hereby certify that I 6 have read the foregoing transcript of Volume II of my 7 testimony given in the foregoing numbered and styled 8 case, and that same is true and correct to the best of 9 my knowledge and beliefs 10 X further certify that any and all 11 corrections have been made on a separate page and 12 attached hereto* 13 SIGNED on this theday of,, 14 1987. 15 15 ELMER P. WHEELER 17 18 SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED BEFORE ME on this 19 the day of.............................. . . 1987. 20 21 22 Notary Public 23 24 25 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50613 401 1 THE STATE OF TEXAS * 2 COUNTY OF HARRIS * 3 4 I, LINDA C. BAKER, a Certified Shorthand 5 Reporter, hereby certify tnat the foregoing testimony 6 was given before me after the Witness had been first 7 duly sworn* 8 X certify that I prepared this transcript 9 and that the foregoing 199 pages constitute a complete 10 and correct copy of the transcript of the proceedings 11 (Volume ID# and that the original is being given to the 12 attorney taking same, to be filed by him if necessary* 13 I further certify that I am neither attorney 14 for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to 15 the lawsuit in which this deposition was taken; further, 16 I am neither related to nor employed by any attorney of 17 record in this cause, nor do I have a financial interest 18 in the matter* 19 GIVEN UNDER MY HAND AND SEAL OF OFFICE in 20 Houston, Texas, on this the |0day of May, 1987* 21 22 LINDA C. BAKER, CSR, RPR 23 Certification Numbers 505 Date of Expirations December 31, 1988 24 Address* 2900 Smith Street, Suite 104 Houston, Texas 77006 25 Pnone* 713/523-3767 NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50614 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 >13 14 /. / 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page Line LAWYER'S NOTES E MS< ! / / ** NELL MC CALLUM & ASSOCIATES, INC. TOWOLDMONOQ50615 1 'O ............. b///l- O'Oi St. See is, rtiaftouri rV^T X Jeni^ues. J-2-ii | i. :i^a1l!;w<il 3-2-3 . AUurit 19, 17>9 LAcolLJLN'J V-' ..fialcr. >ure~ro7ic; ? CK R. 2. Kelly, A-Sc^--0 v// | J. k. KUW^VmwU! ~>--;_--<V AhOuSOi-US - PYit/JULS - i-i'ClTZEJlS It. A. Poril, /u^istun E. H. Putter, Kreuttricn S. 1, cCUlCOjy , v*i*%> v. 3. Sigler. o-2-ii Ref I 0. R, i*idy fAxno I 1 -, F. 2. ..yiaiur rnc4v Awi. 17. l9x) chu> I Exhibit # 3 Saxos auvs 5L..rv^a (Mr* Paul a'iul;nuc} to uae of toe . w3tiii Vi* hi 1 OX' till wO^i t.O V>!T2^ , >i . i a ifaV*- i.(Onl< 4 V U]j X O4JLOf CAlTIGhi v3.-:l'AXl.'S C.^RlaATiS .iYL*hCrCATt3-v.`iS - Avoid proi^n^ect creatorn^ of vapor or slices. *vma tf.vsiU.jt v/itn eyes cr proxo:--~,td contact with akin. If sxir. contact occurs, rfiaove ay wacnin^ wlta c^op and wat^r. ' vic^/*5 wo/ft&ct fxa.u, ^4.ri js*, If detain^ oecoc.es 3oc.-*.j3d with fiuj.d, lcunuer oefore vearlii/'i. 2.,c-.uu _________________________________ ____ knsr-o product iai-eio are i.oeii true cccivihte statement &y ae ci. t.it. i'-rrenv, piur-t j.rajwoco io tv tfvoiuij. tne di*umu enu i. c;;*tfo .ivi> ac^'.wia 0 x y t/.iits* pj-eeouru . &6iiiti.e luce4e .il'vO tfj.aw.; printi..,.; arc- u vs 1 cade. Please initiate t;U3 procedure irnavuiuieiy. il 7 Oils 1 ce * i - /, T # 0. tUn^i'C &ldo L&ocllnd Supervisor ' ' . . 000001 TOWOLDMONOOS0616 >{h - ODo tt MONSANTO INDUSTRIAL CHEMICALS CO. 600 N. Lindbsrgh Boulevard St. Louis. Missouri 63166 Phont: (314) 694-1000 THE POLYCHLORINATED BIPHENYLS LITERATURE REFERENCES Hubbard, H.L., Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology, 5 289 (19&5) ^/'Holmes, D.C., Simmons, J.H., Tatton, J.O.G., Nature, 216, 227 (1967) 4 1/ Holden, A.V., Marsden, K., Nature, 2l6, 1274 (1967) -- Hickey, J.J., Anderson, D.W., Science, 162, 271 (1968) Risebrough, R.W., Rieche, P., Peakall, D.B., Herman, S.G., Kirven, M.V Nature, 220, IO98 (1968) .. Tarrant, K.R., Tatton, J.O.O., Nature, 219, 725 (1968) Koeman, J.H., Ten Noever DeBrauw, M.C., DeVos, R.H., Nature, 221, 1126 (1969) . .Risebrough, R.W., Chemical Fallout, Chas. C. Thomas, Publisher, " Springfield, 111. 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