Document qa59E69jqnNegOXQwzDj20D6G

f n i K m rtB D states d is t r ic t co t SOOTHES* DISTRICT 09 K S T VXRGIBU c a m s s i w i , west v n o o i u JAWS M. AMISS, Administrator ) o f tha Eats to o f Balpk 2 . Adkins, ) Docaaaad, i t a l , ) ) P lain tiffs, ) v. H388AVTD CCWPAMY, a Dslawars Corporation, ) ) ) ) ) ) Dafandant. ) So. 81*2098 Dap o sitio n o f WILLIAM R. UDELL takan on bafaalf o f tha P laintiffs. Raportar: M. Joy Sprlngar J a m es M ay R e p o r t in g S e r v ic e CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS R R 2 - BOX 64 ED W ARD SVILLE. IL L IN O IS 62025 821 IK Tili: UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OT WEST VIRGINIA CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA I I i 4 JAMES M. ADKINS, A d m in is tra to r ) o f the E sta te of Raiph E. A dkins, ) 5 Deceased, e t a l, ) ) 6, P lain tiffs, ) 7 vs. > ) No. .81-2098 8 MONSANTO COMPACT, a Delaware ) ) C orporation, 9 10 } ) Defendant. ) n APPEARANCES: 12 M e ssrs. C a l w e l l , McCormick & Peyton, 13 by John H. S kaggs, E s q ., and V?. S tu a r t C a lw e ll, J r . , Esq. For P l a i n t i f f s , ?U M essrs. Bowles, McDavid, G raff & 15 Love, by C h a rles M. Love I I I , E sq. For Defendant, 16 17 18 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and betw een 19 c o u n s e l f o r th e p l a i n t i f f s and c o u n s e l f o r th e d e fe n d a n t 20 t h a t th e d e p o s itio n o f WILLIAM R. UDELL may be tak en 21 p u rs u a n t to Rule 2 6 (a) o f the F e d e r a l R ules o f C i v il 22 P ro c e d u re , on J u ly 18, 1983, a t th e R ad isso n H o te l, 23 Room 215, 9 th S t r e e t and C onvention P la z a , S t . L o u is, 24 M is s o u ri, b e fo re M. JOY SPRINGER, a N o ta ry P u b lic w ith in 25 and f o r th e County o f M adison, S t a t e o f I l l i n o i s ; t h a t JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 T the issuance of n o tic e and dedimus is w aived, and th a t 2 t h i s d e p o s itio n say 3 ta k e n w ith th e same fo rc e and 3 e f f e c t as i f a l l F ederal ra le s and s ta tu to ry requirem ents 4 had been com plied w ith . 5 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED t h a t any and a l l o b je ctio n s to a l l or any p a rt o f th is d e p o sitio n , 7 ex cep t o b je c tio n s as to form of the q u estio n s asked or 8 answ ers g iv e n , a re hereby r e s e rv e d and may be r a is e d 9 on th e t r i a l o f t h i s ca u se; and th a t th e s ig n a tu re o f 10 th e d ep o n en t i s n o t w aived. 11 r "k ........> *,i k V 12 13 14 15 16 WILLIAM R. UDELL 17 p ro d u ced , sworn and exam ined on b e h a lf o f th e p l a i n t i f f s , 18 deposes and sa y s as f o llo w s : 1? EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. SKAGGS: m9 21 (Whereupon th e r e p o r t e r marked P l a i n 22 t i f f s 1 D e p o sitio n E x h ib it #344 (Monsanto 23 #8314593 th ro u g h #8314600). c o n s i s t i n g o f 8 24 p a g e s; E x h ib it #345 (Monsanto #8319226, 25 #8315347, #8315346, '# I3 5 3 7 JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 #8315343, #535342, #8313341, #315340, 2 #831533$, #3315338, #3315337) co n sistin g of 3 13 pages ; E x h ib it #340 (Monsanto #8321506 4 and #8321507) c o n sistin g of 2 pagas; E xhibit 5 #347 (Monsanto #8307638 through #8307648) 6 c o n s is tin g o f 11 p ag e s; E x h ib it #348 (Mon 7 santo #8321438 through #8321503, #8321415 8 th ro u g h #8321430) c o n s i s t i n g o f 24 p ag es; 9 E x h ib it #349 (Monsanto #055679, #055660, 10 #055662, #055683, #055688, #055689, #055691, 11 #055692, #,,55697, #055538, #055703, #055705, 12 #055706, #053708, #055709, #055710, #055712, 13 #055713 th ro u g h #055716, #055726 th ro u g h 14 #055729, #057327, #057325, #057330, #057339, 15 #057336, #057338, #057337, *055730, ,#057099, 16 #057162, #057400, #057411, #057420, #057554, 17 #057557, #057707, #057718, #057721, #057727, 18 #057730, #05773?, #05774", #057749, #057761, 19 #057762, #057769, #057774, #057776, #057780, 20 #8317460 through #8317474) c o n s is tin g o f 68 21 p ag e s; E x h ib it #350 (Monsanto #69535, #69536, 22 #69562, #69563, #69564, #69566, #69539, #69:40, 23 #69538, #69537, #69535, #69536, i \ ,. ;# 69 . 5 3j,7.**. # 6 9 5 38 , 24 #69539, #69540, #69564, ^ 9 5 6 2 ,^ 6 9 5 6 3 ) 25 c o n sistin g o f 38 pages; E xhibit #351 (Monsanto JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE Itf . r^i 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ' i! 001564 thro u g h 001569} c o n s is tin g o f 6 pages; E x h ib it 352 '(Monssneo 8314271, #8314272, #8314305, #8314312, #057965, #8314313, #8314320, #057971, #057972, #8314322, #8314324, #8314327, #8314332, #8314333, #8314323, #8314357, ,#8314358 > #8314359, #8514541, #057981, #057982, #8314542, #8314591, #8314592, #8314667, #8314668, #057864, v057S65) c o n s i s t i n g o f 28 p a g e s; E x h ib it #353 (Monsanto #8314585, #8314584, #8314582, #8314581, #8314580, #8314579, #8314578, #8314577, #3314576, #8314575, #8314574, #8314573, #8314572, #8314571, #8314570, #8314569, #8314563, #8314566, #8314565, #8314564, #3314563, #8314562, #8314561, #8314560, #8314559, #8314558, #8314557, #8314558, #8314555, #8314554, #8314290, #8314289, #8314288, #8314287, #8314286, #8314285, #8314284, #831*283, #8314282, #8314281, #8314280, #8314279, #8314278, #8314543, #8314544, #8314551, #8314550, #8314549, #8314548, #8314547, #8314546, #8314545, #055515, #055469, #055468, #055467, #055521, #055462, #8314553, .#8314552;'#8314292, #8314294, #8314291, #05^^;> ##55412,^#055411, ' #055410, #055409, #055408; #055407, #055406, JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 4 b#r , 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 . 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 #055405, #05 5402, #055401, #055400, #0553S7, #0553c.3, #0553BO, # 0 5 5 3 7 7 ) c o n s i s t i n g o f SO pagas; and E x h io it #354 (Monsanto #004800 through #004847) c o n s is tin g o f 48 pages, fo r the purposes of id e n tific a tio n .) Q (By M r . Skaggs) H ip Mr. U d e ll. My name i s John Skaggs., I'm going to be a s k in g you i f few q u e stio n s, and i f th e re 's an y th in g you d o n 't understand, f e e l f r e e to t a l l roe and X w i l l t r y and re p h r a s e i t . Would you s t a t e your name f o r th e re c o rd ,p le a s e . A W illin g r . 'Me 11. Q And what i s your homo a d d r e s s , s i r ? A No. 60 Tealwood D riv e , Creve C oeur, M issouri. Q And w hat i s y o u r b u s in e s s a d d re s s ? A 800 N orth L indbergh, S t. L ouis, M isso u ri. Q And what i s y o u r o c c u p a tio n , s i r ? A I'm a chem ist, Research Manager, a c tu a lly Q And w here a r e you em ployed? A Monsanto Company. Q What i s your jo b t i t l e ? d u tie s? A Q Manager o f R esearch. *.*>4 . . ' X ' * * *< *' As a Manager o f R e se a rc h w hat a rc your Tt . ' i J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E 3 \ 1 A tfy a r e a . o f r e s p o n s i b i l i t y is in 2 process rese arch , and I r r e s p o n s i b l e fo r developing 3 p ro c e s se s f o r some o f our h e r b ic id e and p la n t growth 4 re g u la to r m aterials and through a group, through a ra th e r 5 la rg e group, I have s e v e r a l group le a d e r s r e p o r tin g to me, Q How many p eo p le do you s u p e rv is e 7 d irectly? 8 A T irectly , six, 9 Q And who do you r e p o r t to ? 10 A R e p o rt to Mr, R upel, 11 Q And whs t i s h is p o s itio n ? 12 A D ir e c to r o f R e se a rc h . 13 Q I 'd lik e to a s k you a few q u e s tio n s 14 a b o u t your e d u c a tio n . We a r e going t o go back a w ays, 15 so i f y o u 'l l b e a r w ith u s , p le a s e , Where d id you g ra d 16 u a te from h ig h sch o o l? 17 A In S t , L ouis a t S outhw est High S ch o o l. 18 Q And what y e a r wae - th a t? 19 A 1946. 20 Q Where d id you go to c o lle g e ? 21 A A t W ashington U n iv e r s ity in S t . L o u is . 22 Q And w hat y e a r d id you g ra d u a te from 23 th e r e ? 24 A I g o t my B . S . in : I 9 5 8 . 25 Q What was your D egri in ? ' JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER VIC E 6 1 A Chew istry. 2 Q Vim:; w a s n 't Chemical E n g in e e rin g , 3 but pure Chemistry? 4 A Chem istry. 5 U Did you do any p o s t- g r a d u a te work? 6 A Yes. 1 a tta in e d a M aster's Degree 7 from Washington U n iv e rsity in 1966, ri 8 An*- what f i e l d was t h a t in ? 9 A Organic Chem istry. 10 CJ Do you have an y f u r t h e r g ra d u a te 11 e d u c a tio n ? 12 No. 13 I 'd l i k e to a s k you a few q u e s tio n s H now a b o u t your work h i s t o r y . A f te r g ra d u a tin g from 15 c o lle g e w hat was your f i r s t jo b ? 16 A A f te r g ra d u a tin g from c o lle g e - - W ell, 17 I was w orking f o r Monsanto when I g ra d u a te d from c o l l e g e , 18 and I c o n tin u e d w orking f o r Mdnsant: as a R esearch Chem ist, 19 Q When d id you f i r s t s t a r t w ith Monsanto? 20 A In 1948. 21 Q And w hat was your f i r s t p o s it io n ? 22 A L aboratory te c h n ic ia n , 23 Q S o, I g u e s s , in e s s e n c e , th e n ! you 24 tore going to c o lle g e a t n ig h t o r s o a e .e u c h th in g ? : 25 A Yes. JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE Q Then a f t e r you o b t a i n e d your unoer- g r a d u a t e Degree, Monsanto promote*, you to A -- F.esearch Chemist, q As a Research Chemist i n , I g uess, what year would t h a t be? A 1958. q What were your d u tie s ? /. My d u t i e s were to develop p ro ces ses for various organic chemicals. Q Who was your s u p e r v i s o r a t t h a t t i n e ? A In 195 I b e ! i s v c i t was Co 11 is Bryant. Q Is that Call is? A Collis, C -o -l-l-i-s, 3ryant. Q In 1958, then, did you have a respon s i b i l i t y for working with the 2,4,5-T process? A No. Q What kind o f p r o c e s s e s did you work with? A I was working on - r o c e s s e s f o r p h t h a l i c anhydride a t that time. Q What p l a n t did th e y manufacture t h a t p articular chemical at? A They manufactured i t a t the Queeny P lant in S t. Louis and a t the E v e re tt P la n t in Maesachu- setts. ''A. >.*' . . <.#&> Q W ell, a l l these questions a re going r^ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 T4 15 16 17 * " >Jp !' 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to be e d u c a tio n a l in a way f o r mo. Is t h i s ch em ical a member o f th e fa m ily o f chem ical;. known a s p h e n o lic h e rb ic id e s? A No. Q As you p ro g re s s e d a lo n g in your em- ployment a f t e r 19581 what were your su c cessiv e p o sitio n s? A I rem ained a Research C hem ist. There is a couple of grades o f research chem ists, and I d o n 't know e x a c tly when my s a l a r y grade changed. My f i r s t s i g n i f i c a n t prom o tio n to me was 1968, to me, anyway, when I became Group L e a c u r. Q As a Group L eader w hat were your d u tie s ? A B a s ic a lly the same only w ith a number o f c h e m ists r e p o r tin g to me. Q You'd be doing more management, 1 suppose? A Yes. Q Would th e n e x t s t e o up from Group L eader, I b e lie v e , be your p re se n t p o sitio n ? A Yes. Research Manager. Manager? Q And when ware you prom oted to R esearch A 1978. t. ; L.i Q When d id you f i r a t : become involved In the 2,4,5-T procesB? J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E / 9  S&; f - , 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 .17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MP. LOVE: O b je c tio n to the form o f th e q u e s t lo ti. G-* r ~ and ansv'er i t . A 0 , K. Do yo u i: ic 1ude - - ^ (By H r. Skaggs) W e ll, we' l l do i t th is way. MR. LOVD : The b a s is o f my o b je c tio n is you have asked him a v ery broad q u estio n and i t assum es he was a t one tim e involved in the pro cess. "Process" is a terra o f a r t to th ese p eo p le, n o t n e c e s s a r ily to you ' o r me. Q (By Mr. Skaggs) You' r e f a m i l i a r w ith th e N itro , West V irg in ia , F la n t o f th e Monsanto Company? A Yes. Q And you a r e aw are, a r e you n o t , t h a t a t t h a t p la n t M onsanto m an u factu res a h e r b ic id e known as 2,4,5-T? A Did m an u factu re. MR, LOVE; O b je c tio n to th e form o f the question. Q (By Mr. Skaggs) A t one tim e M onsanto manufactured 2 ,4 ,5 -T in N itro? A Yes. \ v /r .. 'n . i Q Did you ev e r have o ccaalo rT to do any JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 10 work reg ard in g the m anufacturing process fo r 2 ,4 ,5 -T i d u rin g th e y e a rs t h a t I t was made a t N itro ? A Yes, Q And would you p le a s e t e l l us when you f i r s t had o ccasio n to become involved In your work w ith the 2,4,5-T process a t N itro . A O.K. A gain, I assume by 2 ,4 ,5 -T process you include th e in te rm ed ia tes lead in g to 2 ,4,5-T , Q Yes, s i r . 10 A Because my f i r s t in v o lv em en t was 11 w ith one o f th o s e In te rm e d ia te s r a t h e r th a n w ith th e 12 f in is h e d p ro d u c t. 13 Q Would t h a t in te rm e d ia te be t r i c h l o r o 14 phenol? 15 A Y es. 16 Q 'Jhen d id you f i r s t become in v o lv e d 17 w ith th e I n te r m e d ia te tr ic h l o r o p h e n o l p ro c e s s ? 18 A I b e lie v e i t was *60. Could have been 19 16 1 , b u t I th in k i t was ' 6C. 20 Q How d id you f i r s t become In v o lv ed In 21 t h a t p ro c e s s ? 22 A I was a s s ig n e d a sm all p r o j e c t to t r y 23 to d e te rm in e b e t t e r ways to make tr ic h l o r o p h e n o l, more 24 econom ical r o u t e s . 25 Q Was t h i s jo b a s s ig n m e n t, th e n , o r ie n te d JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 tow ards th e economic problem o f p ro d u ctio n r a th e r than 2 s a fe ty problem? t 3 A Yes. 4 Q What were th e economic problem s o f 5 producing tric h lo ro p h e n o l in 1960 o r 1961? 6 MR. LOVE; Objection to the form of 7 th e q u e s tio n . I f you can answer i t , go 8 ahead. 9 A The same a s an y m a n u fa c tu re , T h e re 1s 10 alw ays th e d e s ir e to improve th e c o s t o f y o u r p ro d u c t. 11 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Have you e v e r h e a rd 12 o f th e t e r r " d io x in 117 13 A Y es. 14 Q Whatdoes t h a t term mean to you? 15 A D io x in i s , n o t common u se a g e , i s a 16 fa m ily o f c h l o r in a te d d ib en zo d io x in s . 17 Q And you'r e f a m i l i a r a l s o , I assume 18 w ith 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 ta tr a c h lo r o d ib e n z o - p a r a - d io x in ? 19 A Y es. 20 Q When d id you f i r s t become aw are o f 21 th e e x is te n c e o f t h a t p a r t i c u l a r ch e m ic al? 22 A I d o n 't know th e e x a c t y e a r t h a t t h a t 23 o c c u rre d . I t was some tim e in th e ea r ly '6 0 's Is a l l I 24 can say. . ;.t\C 25 . vi.JjV*' Q You happen t o r e c a ll th e c irc u m sta n c e s JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE > 1 un d er which you f i r s t became f a m ilia r w ith th a t chem ical? 2 A No. 3 Q You do n o t r e c a l l w h eth er i t was in 4 th e co u rse o f your employment o r in c a s u a l read in g o f 5 some p r o f e s s io n a l l i t e r a t u r e o r in r e l a t i o n w ith a work 6 assig n m e n t? You j u s t sim p ly do n o t r e c a l l ? 7 A I t was in c o n n e ctio n w ith in fo rm a tio n 8 t h a t X re a d in d o in g my jo b , 1 d o n * t r e c a l l w h eth e r i t 9 was som ething t h a t was c i r c u l a t e d to me o r what i t was. 10 Q You d o n 't r e c a l l w h e th e r i t was a 11 p r o f e s s i o n a l J o u r n a l o r an in -h o u s e memo o r som eth in g 12 of th a t nature? v 13 A No, I r e a l l y d o n 't . I t was n o t a 14 s i g n i f i c a n t o c c u rre n c e a t th e tim e . 15 Q I 'd l i k e t o hand you what has been 16 marked f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n p u rp o ses a s P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 17 #344 (Monsanto #8314593 th ro u g h #8314600), w hich c o n s i s t s 18 o f s e v e r a l h a n d w ritte n p a g e s. I t a p p e a rs t h a t y o u r name 19 may be w r i t t e n a c ro s s th e to p . I t ' s N itr o m ic ro film d ocu 20 ment #8314593. I 'd lik e you to take a minute to review 21 t h a t , p le a s e . I n o te f o r th e r e c o r d I'm te n d e r in g a 22 copy to Mr. Love f o r h i s e x a m in a tio n . 23 Have you had a n o p p o r tu n ity t o re v ie w -. 24 t h a t doc tenant? -y J, tf V . t . '' 25 A Yes. JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 Q Do you re c o g n iz e th e h a n d w ritin g ? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And how would you re c o g n iz e th e hand 4 w riting? 5 A I t ' s my h a n d w ritin g . 6 Q And d id you th a n p r e p a r e t h i s document? 7 A Yes. 8 q You happen to r o e a l l w hat tim e you 9 p repared tills document? 10 A No. A lth o u g h , i t ' s d a te d F e b ru a ry n to A u g u st, *65, so i t was some tim e a f t e r A ugust o f *65. 12 Q I n o tic e a t th e to p o f th e f i r s t page 13 o f t h i s docum ent r e a d s , ' `P ro g re s s R e p o rt, Job No. 9 .2 3 . ,14 . ...** 76001-2102.11 Is t h a t p a r t o f y o u r M o n san to 's num bering system ? A Yes. T h at's the code o f accounts, jo b number. The 2102, th e l a s t f o u r d i g i t s , r e f e r s to 18 2 ,4 ,5 - T . 19 Q I s t h i s docum ent in e f f e c t a ro u g h 20 d r a f t? 21 A Y es. 22 Q I f one w anted - - 23 A I would sa y i t 1e jay j r e l l m i n a r y ;d rsft , 24 In co m p le te d r a f t . 25 Q I f one w anted t o ` lS&aw-;BSui: JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 14 > 1 d r a f t , would i t be f ile d under th a t sane number th a t 2 appears a s th e job number? 3 A No. This r e p o r t was n ever is s u e d . 4 Q Did you e v e r make a f i n a l d r a f t o f 5 th is report? 6 A No. 7 Q Did you e v e r do a n y th in g f u r th e r , 8 did i t ever appear in any o th e r form o th e r than th e one 9 which is b e fo re you? 10 A Not to my know ledge, n o . 11 Q And d id t h i s a p p e a r to be a co m p le te , 12 f u l l and a c c u r a te copy o f th e d r a f t t h a t you p re p a re d ? 13 A I don11 b e l ie v e so b e c a u se I th in k 14 th e r e w ere some ta b le s and d r a f t s in th e o r i g i n a l w hich 15 1 d o n 't se e h e r e . l Q A s id e , th e n , from th e ta b le s and 17 d r a f t s w ith re g a rd to th e t e x t u a l m a t e r i a l , Is i t a 18 t r u e , f u l l and a c c u r a te copy o f th e docum ent you p re p a re d ? 19 A W ell, I c a n 't sa y w ith c e r t a i n t y . 20 Q To th e b e s t o f y o u r r e c o l l e c t i o n . 21 A Yeah. A lth o u g h , t h i s was '6 5 . I 22 d o n 't remember i f e v e ry page i s h e r e o r n o t . T h e r e 's no 23 way f o r me t o know t h a t . -- V * ** --- 24 Q I ' d l i k e you, iS jO IX w o u ld , t O ^ i a d 25 i n t o th e r e c o r d th e segm ent o f th e f i r s t page w hich b e g in s JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE * 1 a d ja c e n t from the word "P ro b lem .1 t 2 A Do you w ant rue to re a d s t a r t i n g w ith 3 "Problem"? 4 Q Yes, s i r . 5 A "To reduce c o n c e n tra tio n o f the c h lo ra c n e g e n ic 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 - te tr a c h lo r o d lb e n z o - d i o x ln (TDD) 7 in our 2 ,4 ,5 -T and to improve th e c o lo r o f th e p ro d u ct." .8 q You ca n s to p t h e r e , I 'd l i k e to 9 a s k jpu, f i r s t o f a l l , who b ro u g h t t h i s problem to your 10 a t t e n t i o n ? n A I b e lie v e i t was my s u p e r v is o r a t 12 th e tim e. 13 Q And \h o would t h a t be? 14 A John S te p h e n s . 15 q And do you r e c a l l how he b ro u g h t t h a t 16 m a tte r to y o u r a t t e n t i o n ? 17 A No. 18 Q Do you r e c a l l i f he p re p a re d an y 19 w r i t t e n memorandum d i r e c t i n g you to i n v e s t i g e t e t h i s 20 problem? 21 A No, b u t t h a t was n o t a norm al t h in g 22 to do a t th e tim e , s t i l l i s n ' t . 23 q In th e c o u rs e o f d i r e c t i n g you to 24 i n v e s t i g a t e t h i s problem d id he d escribe fo r tha c b l o r a c 25 negen 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 - t e tr a c h lo r o d ib e n z o - pera^dioxin? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 16 1 A No. 2 Q Did he r e f e r you to anyl i t e r a t u r e 3 to acq u ain t you w ith th is process? 4 A No. 5 Q In the course o f in v e stig a tin g th is 6 problem did you undertake to a c q u a in t y o u rs e lf w ith any 7 lite ra tu re regarding the chloracnegenlc 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 -tetz a* 8 chlorodibenzo-para-diox in? 9 MR. LOVE: I 'm going to o b j e c t to 10 th e form o f th e q u e s tio n on th e sim ple 11 b a s i s you h av en ' t e l i c i t e d from t h i s w i t 12 n e s s a n y th in g t h a t s u g g e s ts a t t h i s 13 ju n c tu r e t h a t h e was aw are th e r e was an y 14 c h lo ra c n e g e n lc problem and i s n o t su g g e ste d 15 by th e problem s t a t e d in th e docum ent. 16 MR. SKAGGS: You'r e going to l e t 17 him a n sw e r, a r e n ' t you? 18 MR. LOVE: S u re . 19 A Would you r e p e a t th e q u e s tio n , p le a s e . 20 Q (By Mr. S kaggs) W e ll, what I w ant 21 to know i s d id you u n d e rta k e in th e c o u rs e o f p re p a rin g 22 t h i s r e p o r t to i n v e s t i g a t e th e l i t e r a t u r e w l t h s g a r d 23 to 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 * te tr a c h lo r o d ib e n z o - p a r a * d lo x in ? ' . ` v -s'; 24 A Ho, I d on't b o l U t f i T 25 2*3,7,8-ttrachlorodibenzo-para-dioaitt a t th e tld iV JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 Q I b e l ie v e we were ta lk in g a b o u t 2 whether you undertook to in v e stig a te the lite r a tu r e 3 w ith r e g a rd to TDD, and I b e lie v e your answ er was you 4 did n o t, is th a t rig h t? 5 A T hatrs c o r r e c t, because I w a sn 't aware 6 o f th a t s p e c if ic compound a t th e tiis s , 7 q So your testim o n y , now w i l l be t h a t 8 th e f i r s t tim e.y o u became aw are o f TDD was when your 9 su p e rv iso r assig n ed you th is ta s k in 1965? 10 A No. I w a s n 't aw are o f -- W ell, I 11 may have been aw are t h a t i t e x i s t e d , b u t I w a s n 't in 12 an y way s u re t h a t i t was p r e s e n t in o u r p ro d u c t in 13 F e b ru a ry o f '6 5 ; how ever, I was r e a s o n a b ly s u re by th e tim e I w ro te t h i s docum ent and some tim e a f t e r A ugust o f '65 o r during the course o f th is work 1 became aw are. Q I 'd lik e to ask you a question about th is problem reg ard in g th e c o lo r o f th e p ro d u ct. What was th e problem w ith th e c o lo r o f th e product? A I t was d a rk . Q Why was th at a problem? A Because some o f o u r cu sto m ers o b je c te d to the dark color. t /{ '.;/V Q Is that an e s th e tic problem ia * ., *. */. . X - . . *-v there sig n ig lea n t problem w ith t h e v product? irtOv-- ' JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE _Jfc 7 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A W e ll, my u n d e rrte n d in g is t h a t i t ' s b o th en e s th e tic problem and the d ark c o lo rs seem to lead to s o lid s p r e c ip ita tio n from the product causing plugg^ge in a p p lic a tio n equipment and th a t s o rt o f th in g . Q J u s t so I understand, a darker product w hich would come in th e form o f a pow der, i s t h a t r i g h t ? A W ell, a g a in , I w a sn 't aware o f a l l th e custom er com plaint correspondence and so fo rth , bu t 'my u n d e rsta n d in g o f th is problem was t h a t i t c a r r ie d through to the f in a l e ste re d products and the co lo r c a r r i e d th ro u g h and cau sed some problem w ith s o li d s d e p o s itio n from th e p ro d u ct when i t was b ein g a p p lie d . Q Was th e problem o f c o lo r r e l a t e d to th e p re se n c e o f TDL? A No. Q Tid you ever fin d any evidence th a t th e c o lo r problem was a t a l l r e la te d tc th e p re se n ce o f TDD? MR. LOVE; L e t me o b je c t a g a in to th e form o f your q u e stio n . X assume th a t y o u 're ta lk in g about th e time p erio d Febru a r y to A ugust o f 1965, b u t when ycuuse a word lik e " e v e r," i t ' s ^ l i t t l e b ro ad er than that. . .. ; r' I would likt^pr you to iSial * .............. S,>- . to the exten t you can w ith s p e c ific time JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE / 19 1 p e r i o d s t evii t h t *5 t h * hr.51is o 2 ray o b 2 je c tio n . 3 Q (3y Mr, Skaggs) When you were p e r 4 forming th is study from February to August o f 1965, 5 d id you fin d any evidence th a t th e re was a c o r r e la tio n betw een a d a rk e r c o lo r p ro d u c t and th e p re se n c e o f TDD? 7 A oh, y e s. I guess th e re was no c o r 8 r e l a t i o n . There wa s * c o n n e c tio n In t h a t th e c o lo re d 9 m a te r ia l as w a ll as th e TDD a r e r e l a t i v e l y h ig h b o ilin g 10 m a t e r i a l s , and so th e y would be removed to g e th e r in a 11 d i s t i l l a t i o n D r o c f i s s , so in t h a t sen se th e re i s p c o r 12 r e l a t i o n . 13 O So, th e n , would i t be a f a i r sts c e m e n t 14 t h a t i f i t ' s a l i g h t e r c o lo re d p ro d u c t, th e r e would be 15 a low er d e g re e o f TDD b ecau se b o th th o s e q u a l i t i e s a p p e a r 16 u n d er th e same o r s i m i l a r m a n u fa c tu rin g c o n d itio n s ? 17 A No. I h e r e 's no c o n n e c tio n betw een 18 th e c a u s e s , t h a t I know o f , betw een th e c a u se s o f TDD 19 and c o lo r in g , 20 Q Did you a t any l a t e r d ate fin d th a t 21 c o r r e l a t i o n betw een th e c o l o r o f th e p ro d u c t and th e 22 p re se n c e o f TDD? 23 A W ell, y ea h , maybe th a t more d r a s t i c 24 c o n d itio n s le d to more c o lo re d produets. X don11 r e c a l l 25 making th at co n sc io u s ju d g m en t, b u t It* s n ot u n r e a l i s t i c . JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 Q W ell, what Is th e b asis o f th a t 2 statem ent, th a t i t is n 't u n realistic? 3 A We 11# I guess tn e d a rk e r c o lo re d 4 m aterials are the re s u lt of a less se lec tiv e reactio n , 5 maybe more d r a s t i c r e a c t i o n c o n d i tio n s , and th e same 6 i s tr u e o f TDD. 7 Q I 'd lik e you now, s i r , to p lease 8 read th e rem ainder o f th a t f i r s t page which begins 9 fo llo w in g th e word "Summary" t h a t a p p e a rs in th e l e f t 10 hand m argin o f th e f i r s t page o f E x h ib it 344. 11 A "A p ro ced u re has bean d ev elo p ed f o r 12 th e p r e p a r a tio n , s to r a g e and use o f d i s t i l l e d t r i c h l o r o 13 p h en o l to g iv e 2 ,4 ,5 - T a s u p e r io r q u a l i f y , Hie p ro ced u re 14 r e p r e s e n ts th e most e f f e c t i v e means o f rem oving b o th 15 c o l o r and TDD." 16 Q Who d ev elo p ed t h a t p ro ced u re? 17 A I d id . 18 Q Were you w orking r i t h anyone e l s e in 19 th e developm ent o f t h a t p ro ced u re? 20 A I th in k th e r e was a te c h n ic ia n w orking 21 w ith me a t th e tim e d o in g a n a l y t i c a l work. 22 Q And do you happen to remember h i s name? 23 A Jim Sim s. 24 Q I ' d l i k e f o r y o u , I f you w o u ld * !p le a s e , 25 to tu r n t o th e n e x t p ag e , w hich i s H ltro m ic r o J ila JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE #8314594, and I 'd lik e f o r you to read th a t page In to the record. A 1The r e s u l t s o f th e a n a ly s is o f v a rio u s p ro c e s s stream s f o r TDD - In p a r t i c u l a r , th e rece n t a n a ly sis o f in term ed iate au to clav e samples - have su g g e ste d t h a t TDD fo rm a tio n m ig h t be m inim ized o r elim inated by a m o dification o f the process a t th e au to cla v e s te p . A program is being I n itia te d to study th e e f f e c t s o f s e v e r a l v a r i a b l e s on th e fo rm a tio n o f TDD, t r i c h lo r o p h en o l (TCP) an d t r i c h l o r o a n l s o l e (TCA)." Q F ir s t o f a l l , you cake a referen ce in th e re to p ro cess streams. What were th o se p ro cess stream s? A They were sam ples o f th e sodium t r i - chlorophenate so lu tio n . Q Were th e s e ta k e n from s p e c i f i c manu factu rin g processes? A Yes. Q And w hat p la n ts w ere th o se ta k e n from? A Ju st the N itro P lan t. sam ples? Q Who was r e s p o n s ib le f o r ta k in g th e A I d o n 't r e c a l l . Someone a t th e p la n t. Q How many sam ples taken? A I'm not su re . I th in k ab o u t th re e . JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE i ft t < V . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q And w hat tim e p e rio d would th e s e heve been taken? A A gain, I don' t remember which month. Some tim e betw een F eb ru ary and A u g u st, *65. Over a s h o rt span o f tim e. During th a t p e rio d , a day o r two. Q And w ere th e s e sam ples ta k en from th e trichlorophenol process? A Yes, Q Are you a c q u a in te d w ith th e 1549 ex p lo sio n a t the N itro P la n t o f Monsanto? A I 'm arare of i t , yes. Q Were t h e s e sam ples ta k e n from th e same pro cess th a t exploded in 1949; MF.. LOVo: O b je c t to th e form o f the q u estio n on th e b asis th a t i t ' s exceed in g ly vague. I f you want to is o la te to th e e x te n t o f th is w itn e s s 's knowledge where these samples c a rr from th a t a re d is cussed in th is p a rtic u la r document narked fo r Id e n tific a tio n as #344, I d o n 't have any d if f ic u lty w ith th a t, and i f you want to th en a sk him i f he knows som ething w ith r e la tio n to th e 1949 in c id e n t, I have no tro u b le w ith th a t, h u t 1 th in k your question as phrased Is objectionable. JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 23 i , t 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 IO 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) V a il , i f you want to an sw er th e q u e s tio n , war 11 go on from th e r e . 1i A Would you p ie r.w c r e p e a t th e q u e s tio n . Q L e t me go a b o u t I t t h i s way, y o u 'r e j * " aw are in 1949 th e a u to c la v e w hich was In v o lv ed In th e . m anufacture o f trich lo ro p h en o l a t N ltro exploded? lI |i i* * i A Yes. ?, I Q And i t was th e sa n e tr ic h lo r o p h e n o l p ro cess th a t you took th e se samples from? In o th e r words, the chem ical step in the m anufacturing process o f 2 ,4 ,5 -T p ro cess was th e same? MR. LOVL; I o b je c t once a g a in to the form o f the q u e stio n . I f you can answer i t , answer i t . A Yeah, th e s te p in th e process was th e same. There may have been some changes a s to th e way t h a t Step was perform ed between '4 9 and '6 5 . Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Tl i a t a b o u t t h i s p ro - 11 gram t h a t was i n i t i a t e d , who was r e s p o n s ib le f o r i n i t i t - ing th a t program? MR. LOVE; Which program a r e you talk in g about? MR. sk A ggs : i 1a r e f e r r i n g t o 't h e . 1 program described in fh e ^ lju t *entexu^ page 2. --I p: * * . > .% . '* 1r x- * V , ' * ; y -v -r . ^ 'V / J A M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E 24 > 1 A Ag Resea rc h wxx: e n s n t, 2 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) What i s Ag R esearch 3 Management? 4 A My s u p e r i o r s . I d o n 't know e x a c tly 5 who makes th e f i n a l d e c is io n on what program s a r e i n i t i a t e d 6 and when. C e rta in ly was n o t a t t h a t p o in t in tiin s, 7 Q And you were n o t r e s p o n s i b le , th e n , 8 fo r the program th a t's d escrib ed In th a t la s t sentence, 9 is th at rig h t; 10 MR. LOVE; O b je c t to th e form o f n your q u e s tio n . A g ain , no;* a r e you ta lk in g 12 a b o u t th e do-.velnpment o f th e program o r 13 im p lem en tatio n o f th e program? X d o n 't 14 know what youhe t a l k i n g a b o u t. 15 Q (By Mr. Skaggs), Bo you underdtend 16 th e q u e s tio n ? < 17 A No, n o t e n t i r e l y . I was n o t re s p o n 18 s i b l e f o r -- When th e program was I M t l a t e d , I d id p u rsu e 19 th e program , y ea h , i f t h a t ' s w hat y o u 'r e a s k in g . I'm 20 n o t s u r e . 21 Q What w ere your d u t i e s w ith r e g a rd 22 t o t h a t program ? 23 A My d u tie s w ere to fin d c o n d itio n s 24 f o r th e a u to c la v e s te p w hich would minimize o r e lim in a te .25 th e fo rm a tio n o f TDD, a s we c a l l e d I t th e n . JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE V I Q In Chs co u rse o f doing t h a t , chan, 2 you, o f course, hat to fan .ilia rin e y o u rself w ith the 3 m anufacturing process in place a t th a t tim e, is th a t 4 right? 5 A Yes. Q who was your im m ediate s u p e r io r In 7 th e work th a t you d id on th is program? 8 A I b f-liev e a t t h a t tim e i t was D exter 9 S h arp . There was a t r a n s i t i o n betw een John S tep h en s 10 and D ex te r Sharp some tim e aro u n d t h a t p e r io d . I 11 d o n ' t r e c a l l what y ea r t h a t o c c u rre d . In my c a s e 12 John ste p h ers was e i t h e r my im m ediate s u p e r io r o r second 13 l e v e l . 14 Q And w hat would h i s p o s i t i o n have been? 15 A tfenager o f R e se a rc h , 16 Q And who would he have r e p o r te d to ? 17 A John S p e s i a l i ( p h o n e tic ) . 18 Q And who was he? 19 A D ir e c t o r o f R e se a rc h . 20 Q What w ere th e s e v e r a l v a r ia b le s t h a t 21 you s tu d ie d in th e c o u rse o f t h i s program ? 22 A The v a r i a b l e s o f tim e , te m p e r a tu r e , 23 th e r a t i o o f s e v e r a l r e a c t a n t s . '?" 24 Were th e r e an y o th e r v a ria b lo e ^ t& a t 25 you studied? - i j T JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE I* , * 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 -- W ell, th ere is an a d d itio n time and th e re is a hold period. Those were stu d ied as se p arate v ariab les. Q What is t r i c h l o r o a n i s o l e ? T richloroanisole is a m ethoxvtrichloro- benzene. Q Is i t a substance which throws o ff 2 ,3 ,7 ,3 - te tr a c h lo r o d ib e n z o - p a r a - d io x i n o r a t some p o in t in th e co u rse o f i t s m anufacture co u ld be contam in ated with 2 , 3 ,> , -tetrach lo ro d ib en zo -p ara-d io x in ? A I d o n 't b e lie v e so . I t ' s on th e o th e r end o f the spectrum . In o th e r w ords, i t ' s an in te rm e d ia te on th e way to tr ic h lo r o p h e n o l. Som ething th a t you have to r e a c t i t to to g et to tric h lo ro p h e n o l. gram? Q O.K. What e v e r happened to t h i s p ro - A I t was co m p leted . Q What were th e r e s u l t s o f th e com pletio n ? Did you p re p a re a w r itte n r e p o r t o r make an o r a l r e p o r t, or what? A Yes. Q O.K. Which was i t ? A Both. Q o ral report? And to whom d id address th is ?y&y: JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 2; ^$ > ' 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A X d o n 't r e c a l l . I th in k th e r e was an in te rn a l re p o rt, a group m eeting type re p o rt. There was a r e p o r t made to m a n u fa c tu rin g p eo p le a t N itr o I know a t one p o in t and th en th e r e was a f i n a l r e p o r t w ritten. Q So are you say in g th e re were th re e d if f e r e n t documents? A N'o. J u s t one docum ent. 0 But i t went to th re e d if f e r e n t groups of people? A W ell, i t went to more than t h a t . I t was a f a i r l v w idely d i s t r ib u t e d docum ent. I t was a f i n a l r e p o r t. They get a stan d ard f a i r l y wide d is tr ib u tio n . Q I 'd lik e to d ire c t your a tte n tio n to page 3 o f th is document, which is Agent Orange #8314595. You r e f e r to e sample o f I b eliev e i t ' s sodium tric h lo ro p h e n o l, is that, c o rre c t? A Sample o f p la n t sodium tric h lo ro p h e n a te , yeah. Q Is th a t a N itro sample? A Yes. Q I n o tic e then on th e top o f th e n e x t page th ere Is what appears in p a re n th e sis the number BA312, 2 /2 1 /6 4 in p a r e n t h e s is . Is t h a t a h u m b e r in g s y s te r a f-o r sam p,les?_ - ! :v . ` / J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E 2 & ' i 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A T h at's 312. Yes. T h a t's Kitiro 's batch 312, ano the o th e r numbers, o f co u rse, are the d ate. Q Is th a t a stan d ard ized numbering system u t i l i z e d by MonsantoV A I th in k i t ' s j u s t a N itro numbering system , n o t a companywide one. Q What were your recom m endations a f t e r the com pletion of th is rep o rt? A My recom m endations were t h a t t h i s process- could produce very high q u a lity 2 ,4 ,5 -tric h lo ro phenol b u t i t d id not seem to be a very d e s ir a b le p ro c e ss to o p erate because i t would 9 i t d o e s n 't ad d ress the problem o f e lim in a tin g th e fo rm a tio n o f TDD and in f a c t i t c o n c e n tr a te s th e TDD in a much more c o n c e n tra te d form which would p r e s e n t many more o p p o r tu n itie s f o r exposure, Q I want to make s u re I u n d e rsta n d w hat y o u 'r e s a y in g , and i f my surorrary is w rong, c o r r e c t me. Are you sa y in g t h a t you came up w ith a p ro c e s s w hich would cure th is c o lo r problem but would not so lv e the problem o f th e TDD? A I t would remove th e TDD from th e p ro d u ct b u t i t would n o t e lim in a te th e form ation o f the TDD in th e u ltim a te h a n d lin g o f i t . * - / - Q Y o u 're going to have to c la r if y t h a t J A M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E 29 s 1 f o r me, p l e a s e . I d o n ' t u n d e r s ta n d why I t would remove 2 i t from th e p r o d u c t - - I t sounds to me l i k e you*re s a y 3 ing i t would remove i t from the p ro d u ct but i t would 4 s t i l l be t h e r e , 5 A I t d id n 't change the conditions of 6 manufacture a t a l l . We s t i l l made TDD. A l l we did 7 was to take the mixture o f pro d u ct and i m p u r i t i e s , 8 c o l o r b o d i e s , TDD, e t c e t e r a and s e p a r a t e o u t th e r e a s o n 9 ably pure trichiorophenol from those colored material:; 10 and TDD by d i s t i l l a t i o n . Now t h a t l e f t those m a t e r i a l s 11 in the d i s t i l l a t i o n r e s i d u e so th ey a r e s t i l l t h e r e and 12 s t i l l have to be handled and d is p o s e d o f soma way. 13 Q But a s f a r as th e f i n a l p r o d u c t goes, 14 i t would e l i m i n a t e TDD from the end p ro d u c t? 15 A T h a t ' s r i g h t . 16 XT.. . O b j e c t i o n to the form of 17 the q u e s t i o n . 18 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Do you know who 19 u l t i m a t e l y p as sed upon the d e s i r a b i l i t y o f t h i s p r o c e s s ? 20 A No. 21 Q Was i t your recommendation, your 22 p e r s o n a l recommendation, t h a t your proposed p r o c e s s n o t 23 be implemented? 24 A I t was my b e l i e f ' i t was ioy 25 recommendation. *'CT-U'TV '''***' '"*'** .. * '* ' JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE &% * 5 i 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Did you make a recom m endstton one way o r the o th e r a s to w hether t h i s p ro c e s s should be elim inated? A You j u s t asked me t h a t . Q I th o u g h t I h ea rd you say i t was your b e lie f b u t you d id n 't say one way o r the o th e r. A I d o n 't sp e c ific a lly re c a ll saying, I recommend we d o n 't do t h i s , b u t I b e lie v e we d id . Q I 'c lik e to hand you now w hat has been narked for id e n tific a tio n purposes as P la in tif f s ' E x h ib it 4 5 (Monsanto 3 1 9 2 2 6 , e t a '. ) . I ' d l i k e to hand you P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #345, I 'd lik e you to ta k e a moment to review t h i s h a n d w ritte n docum ent, which the top page is N itro m icrofilm #8319226, and I would n o te th a t I'm ten d erin g a copy to H r. Love fo r h is review. Do you re c o g n iz e t h a t p ag e, s i r ? A No, I d o n ' t . Q Do you know th e name -- I t ' s v e ry d i f f i c u l t to read a t the bottom . I t appears to be B al- d e rs o n . Is t h a t name f a m i l i a r to you? A Yes. Q Do you a g re e t h a t a p p e a rs to be th e name a t th e b ottom o f th e page? A Yes. . * .*` J A M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E 3' 1 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 .17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 -- CJ Who i s he? A H e's -- MR. LOVE: Are you a s k in g a b o u t to d a y , his position? Q (by Mr. Skaggs) Would you id e n t i f y him, p le a se . A H e's an employee, o f Monsanto a t the N itro Plant lab o rato ries. Q Has he alw ays been employed th e re ? W ell, in the co u rse o f tim e t h a t you have known him a t Monsanto has he been employed a t the N itro P lan t? A Yes. Q And w hat a r e h is d u t i e s , a r e you f a m ilia r w ith them? A Now, I r e a l l y d o n 't know w hat h is duties are. Q Do you re c o g n iz e t h i s page a s b ein g o u t o f some k in d o f a lab book o f some kin d ? A No, I'm n o t f a m ilia r w ith th a t. Q Are you f a m ilia r w ith the re c o rd - keeping procedures a t the lab o rato ry a t the N itro P lant? A No. Q I 'd lik e to d ire c t y o u r.a tte n tio n to (^ *'/** w hat appears to be page 77 o f th i s .'t a a c r p t , and i t ' s :v -` document #8315343, and I would d i r e c t your a tte n tio n to JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 3: V 1 th e i n i t i a l s a t th e bottom o f th e page and ask you i f 2 you recognize th o se. 3 A No, I d o n 't. 4 Q Are you f a m ilia r w ith thete s tin g 5 program a t the N itro P lant? A No, I'm n o t. 7 Q You have an y knowledge w h eth er th e 8 N itro P la n t on a re g u la r b a sis te s te d fo r 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 - te tr a - 9 c h lo ro d ib e n z o -d io x in a t an y tim e from 1949 to 1969V 10 A Y'es. I was to ld th e y were d o in g 11 so and in f a c t s u p p lie d in fo rm a tio n f o r them to do t h a t , 12 Q What p e rio d o f tim e d id th ey t e s t f o r 13 d io x in ? 14 A 1 d o n 't know. I t was to b eg in some 15 tim e in 1966, and X d o n 't know how long i t c o n tin u e d . 16 Q But you a u th o re d a p ro ced u re f o r them 17 t o fo llo w in t e s t i n g f o r d io x in , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? 18 A I b e lie v e Jim Sims p ro b ab ly a u th o re d j 19 th e p ro c e d u re . I may have a p p e a re d a s th e c o - a u th o r . i 20 Q When you say you s u p p lie d them w ith , 21 d id you p ass i t on to them o r e x p la in i t to them , o r w hat? 22 A We p a sse d i t on to them and d is c u s s e d 23 i t w ith them . 24 Q Did you t r a v e l to H ltr o in a o L s tln g them j 25 in im plem enting t h i s t e s t i n g program ? \ JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1* , V ' 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Ko, s i r , I die": n o t. Q At le a s t th is te s tin g involves the use of a gas chromatograph, is th a t c o rrect? A Yes, Q 1 assume N itro had gas chrom atographic c a p a b i l i t y when th e y i n i t i a t e d t h i s program , i s t h a t correct? A Yes. I d o n 't r e c a ll i f they had to purchase i t fo r the purpose of th is program or whether th ey a lr e a d y had i t . I d o n 't know the answ er to t h a t . Q Do you know when th e y f i r s t a c q u ire d e gas chromatograph? A Ko, I d o n 't. Q A fte r you su p p lie d them w ith th e p ro - cedure to t e s t fo r d io x in , d id you have ar.y re s p o n s i- b i l i t y to continue to m onitor th a t te s tin g program? A No. Q Would you d e s c r ib e t h i s p ro c e d u re f o r u s, A Not in any d e t a i l . I was n o t th e a n a l y t i c a l c h e m ist a c t u a l l y d o in g th e w ork. A l l I knov? i s i t was a gas chrom atographic p ro c e d u re . I r e a l l y c a n 't t e l l you what the d e ta ils o f the procedure w are. Q Was t h i s p r o c e d u r e o r ie n te d s t r i c t l y *** ' '/ ' ^i towards tak in g a sam ple, running i t th ro u g h th em ach in e, p ro d u cin g a r e s u l t , o r d id i t in c lu d e a vp r ^ b c o l " f o r a JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE y I V * < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 . 15 . 15 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 te s tin g program? A I d o n 't understand, te s tin g program. I d o n 't u n d e rsta n d what you mean by t h a t . Q F in e . rfnat I w ant to know i s d id your p ro ced u re m erely a d v is e a c h e m ist how to t e s t fo r cio x in or did i t include a program fo r ro u tin e ly sam pling various p a rtr of the 2,4,5-T m anufacturing process and so fo rth ? A The a n a l y t i c a l method was s p e c i f i c a l l y f o r th e f i n a l p ro d u c t 2 ,4 ,5 - T and i t was j u s t a cookbook d e s c r ip tio n o f how to a n a ly z e , how to p re p a re th e sample f o r a n a ly s is and how to a n a ly z e and c a l c u l a t e the r e s u l t . Q Did you l i s t any recom m endation fo r a jffiod o f tim e a sample should be taken? Tor exam ple, d id you say a sample should be taken ev ery fo u rth b a tc h or every ten th batch or something along those lin e s? A 1 d o n 't r e c a l l . T here may have been d is c u s s io n a lo n g th o s e l i n e s , b u t t h a t e sc a p e s my memory. Q Do you know i f th e N itr o t e s t i n g program was based on any kind o f p r o to c o l lik e t h a t o r was i t c a tc h -a s -c a tc h -c a n ? A I'm su re th e re was a p ro to c o l, b u t I d o n 't know t h a t I e v e r was awe r e o f th e d e t a i l s o f th e p ro to c o l. . :; Q Is i t a Monsanto p o lic y tV have a JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 35 I 1 p r o t o c o l su ch a s t h a t in It* sh cm ics; m sn u fsct u r in g p la n ts ? 2 A Yes* There a r c s p e c i f i c a t i o n s , chere 3 a re s p e c if ic a tio n methods to be fo llow ed, and the s p e c if i 4 c a tio n in clu d es the frequency w ith which a sample is taken 5 and a o a ly z e c . Some a r e ta k en e v e ry b a tc h , some a r e tak en a t i n t e r v a l s anc some a r e ta k e n o n ly upon r e q u e s t. 7 Q Are you fa m ilia r w ith th a t kind o f 8 a p o lic y a t any Monsanto p la n t t h a t w> u ld m anufacture 9 phenoxy h e r b i c i d e s , iz. p a r t i c u l a r , 2.,4,5-TV 10 A Am I f a m i l i a r w ith t h a t p ro to c o l? 11 M?*. LOVS; 1 was go in g to o b je c t to 12 th e form o f th e q u e s tio n b o th to t h i s one 13 and to th e p re c e d in g one on th e b a s is o f 14 a tim e s i t u a t i o n . I f you can be more 15 s p e c i f i c . There may be p o l i c i e s in a f f e c t 16 to d a y t h a t were n o t in e f f e c t 25 y e a rs ag o . 17 Now, I th in k you lim ite d your l a s t q u e s tio n 18 to th e 2 ,4 ,5 - 7 w hich d e a ls w ith a tim e 19 p e r io d , so t h a t ' s th e re a s o n I d id n o t 20 o b je c t to t h i s , 21 Q (By Mr. Skagg3) W e 'll ta k e i t t h i s 22 way. How a b o u t 1949? 23 A Were th e r e p r o to c o ls ? 24 Q Y es, s i r 25 A I d o n 't know JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Do you h?ve y p o lic y at: an y tim e a t any Monsanto p la n t re g a rd in g the talcing o f sample.- fo r the use o f analyzing fo r dioxin? A I don*t r e c a l l t h a t I ev e r was in volved or aware of what those p ro to co ls were. Q I 'd lik e to hand you what has been marked f o r id e n tif ic a tio n purposes a s P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it .346, w hich ip N itr o m ic ro film #8321506 and #8321507. T' d lik e you to ta k e a moment to review t h a t and I would n o te I'm te n d e rin g a copy to Mr. Love. Do you re c o g n iz e t h a t document? A Yes. Q And were you th e a u th o r o f t h a t document? A Yes. Q And does th i s a p p e a r to be a t r u e , f u l l and a c c u ra te copy o f the dooment th a t you authored? A Yes, as far as I can t e l l . Q I noticeth a t i t 's datedJanuary 29, 1971, and i t regards 2,4 ,5 -T . I 'm a l i t t l e confused a b o u t i t . Does t h i s in v o lv e d io x in in an ongoing nanu- factu rin g process or dioxin in an inventory 2,4,5-T ' th a t had e a r lie r been m anufactured? . - V*.v;. . A An in v e n to ry t h a t hfid beenm an u factured e a rlie r. *''^ JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE I 1 Q Vhsr** Wfic- th e in v e n to ry d i r t ' s here 2 m anufacture5? 1 3 A I ' m n o t c e r t a i n . I t was a t the 4 K rucm rich P la n t and I b e lie v e i t was p ro b a b ly -- th e 5 l a s t s te p , the e s t e r i f i c a t i o n step vas done a t Kruramrich. 6 Q Could any o f th is in v en to ry have 7 included N itro product? 8 A W ell, i t inclu d ed them a te ria l from 9 w hich th e e s t e r was carde was produced a t I 'i t r o , th v l i s , 10 th e 2 ,4 ,5 - T a c id . 11 Q So th e 2 ,4 ,5 - 7 a c id was made a t I'i t r o , 12 was sh ip p ed o f f to Krurmirich f o r th e f u r t h e r p r o c e s s in g , 13 i s t h a t r i g h t ? 14 A T h a t' s r i g h t . 15 Q And th e in v e n to ry t h a t wea r e d e iilin g 16 w ith h e re i s th e end r e s u l t o f t h a t lo n g p ro c e s s ? 17 A T h a t' s r i g h t . 18 Q I 'd l i k e you to r e a d , i f you w ould, 19 th e se n te n c e a t th e bottom o f th e second p arag rap h 20 under the d e t a il s e c tio n . In o th e r w ords, th e re is c 21 se n te n c e and th e n e x t p a ra g ra p h is w hat I ' m r e f e r r i n g 22 t o , and I ' d l i k e you to s t a r t th e s e n te n c e t h a t s t a r t s ', 23 "The f i l t e r c a k e ." I t ' s th e second to l a s t s e n te n c e 24 in t h a t p a ra g ra p h , and I ' d l i k e you to f i n i s h leading 25 th e p a ra g ra p h . JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE \ ' % 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 U 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A * The f L ite r cc.kc: may c o n ta in up to i 50 p a rts per m illio n cio x in and should be considered extrem ely to x ic . C ontact w ith the sk in must be r ig o r ously avoider q What is l i t e r cake! * F ilte r cake is th e s o l i d m a te r ia l th a t rem ains on the f i l t e r a f t e r t r e a t m e n t o f t h i s p r o d u c t w ith carb o n and su b se q u e n t f i l t r a t i o n . So i t ' s p r im a r ily carbon w ith some m a te r ia ls ab so rb e d un d er th e ca rb o n . (Whereupon a s h o rt break was ta k e n . a f te r which the follow ing proceedings were ha d :) Q (By Mr. Skaggs) l f m go in g to hand you what has been marked f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n pu rp o ses a s P la in tif f s * E x h ib it #347 (Monsanto #8307638 through #8307648). lake a look a t th a t. I note th a t I 'm handing a c o p y t o Mr. L o v e . A A ll rig h t. Q Do you re c o g n iz e t h i s document? A Yes, I do. Q And were you th e a u th o r o f i t ? A Yes, I was. Q And does t h i s appear to bo i tru e. *, ;`iVi '* com plete and a c c u r a te copy o f th e rtp o rt th at you.prepared? *'' ' V"'-.Ar-_ ---.VL; . A I b e l i e v e I t i s , although, X c a n 't be JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 0 X rei?iine. i t was e. number o f yn&zj a g o , so to the b est o f your re c o lle c tio n i t is? A Yes. Q wh&t was th e p u rp o se o f t h i s r e p o r t" A I t was to r e p o r t work done w ith the purpose o f tr y in g to fin d s more econom ical ro u te to *l*>-S -t- - Q And t h i s i s p a r t o f th e ongoing p ro b lem to reduce m anufacturing c o s ts , is tiia t rig h t? A T h a t1? c o r r e c t . 0 In the course of p rep arin g th is re o o rt d id you have occasion to in v e s tig a tio n the production o f te tre lev e1 cfclorodibenzo-para-dioxins ? A No, no. Q Did you review any l i t e r a t u r e re g a rd ing the production of dioxins in p rep arin g th is rep o rt? A No. Q You d i d n 't c o n s id e r th e problem o f th e p ro d u c tio n o f d io x in s a t a l l when you p rep ared th is document a t a l l , th en , is th a t rig h t? A 1 d o n 't b e lie v e X was aw are o f d io x in a t th is time in S I. Q In th e c o u rse o&g&aparlng th i s "document * ^ .* A t - d id you have o c c a sio n to review the lite r a tu r e with regard JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 to the production of 2,4,5-T in general? 2 A Yes. X would add, p a r tic u la r ly as 3 i t re la te s to the m anufacturing process. 4 Q I 'd lik e to hand you what has been 5 marked fo r id e n tif ic a tio n purposes as P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #348 (Monsanto #8321498, e t a i ) , which is on Monsanto 7 Company l e t t e r h e a d , A g r ic u ltu r e Chanilc a ls D iv is io n 8 Research Department, and a t the lower righthand corner 9 i t co n ta in s N itro m icrofilm #8321493. I 'd lik e you to 10 ta k e a moment to review t h i s m u lti-p a g e docum ent. 11 A O.K. 12 Q Do you re c o g n iz e th e s e docum ents? 13 A Not s p e c i f i c a l l y , 1 re c o g n iz e th e 14 h a n d w ritin g and I'm f a m i l i a r w ith th e s u b j e c t m a tte r. 15 I d o n 't remember a c t u a l l y s e e in g th e document b e f o r e . l Q I n o tic e a t th e top o f i t i t h as a 17 b lo c k where i t s a y s , "P re p a re d b y ." W hat's t h a t name? 18 A F,. L. R u p ei. 19 Q And w hat i s th e name t h a t a p p e a rs a t 20 th e bottom o f th e page? 21 A 0 . C. F u r u ta , 22 Q A re you f a m i l i a r w ith th o s e p eo p le? 23 A Y es. 24 Q How a r e you fa m ilia r with them? ' 25 A They tore b o th In rxp group in *71 *70. JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 Q Were you t h e i r s u p e rv is o r? 2 A Yes. 3 q And in th e c o u rs e o f b e in g t h e i r 4 s u p e rv is o r d id you become f a m il ia r w ith t h e i r work 5 p ro d u ct, in clu d in g th e se kinds o f documents? A Yes. 7 Q And you s a id you re c o g n iz e d th e hand 8 w riting here, is th a t correct? 9 A Yes. 10 q And whose h a n d w ritin g i s th a t? 11 A F red R u p el. 12 q What i s t h i s document? 13 A I t ' s n o teb o o k pages t h a t r e l a t e to 14 th e work t h a t he d id in th e a n a l y s i s o f i s o o c t y l 2 ,4 ,5 - T 15 e s t e r s and in th e carb o n tr e a tm e n t p ro c e s s developm ent 16 t o red u ce th e developm ent o f d io x in . 17 q Are th e s e docum ents w hich you r e l i e d 18 upon in th e p r e p a r a t io n o f th e r e p o r t w hich you a u th o re d 19 and h as been i d e n t i f i e d a s P l a i n t i f f s 1 E x h ib it #347? 20 MR. LOVE: I ' m g o in g t o o b j e c t 21 to t h a t q u e s tio n u n le s s you show us th e 22 e x h i b i t a g p ln . 23 * " ' >.;U: A No, t h a t 's n o t tike r i g h t r e p o r t . 24 MR. LOVE: I t * a in u tfe , **"SW 25 MR. SKAGGS : X n o ti, f o r t h . r e c o r d JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE I'm ten d erin g to y o u .fo r your review #347. MR. LOVE: Y o u 're a s k in g him i f he r e l i e d on E x h ib it 348 d ated F eb ru ary 18f 1971, in preparing a re p o rt re fle c te d as E x h ib it 347 th a t was p rep ared Ja n u ary and May o f 1961, some te n y e a rs e a r l i e r , i s th a t your question? MR. SKAGGS: guess th e an sw er to th a t is the document speaks fo r i t s e l f , a s you fre q u e n tly say. Q (By Mr. Skaggs) What r e p o r t d id you r e ly on in p rep arin g th is ? MR. LOVE; I 'm go in g to o b je c t to the question again because 1 d o n 't have any idea what you're ta lk in g about. T h ere's a re p o rt in f ro n t o f him. Q (By Mr. Skaggs) O.K. You j u s t t e s t i f i e d , d id you n o t, th a t th e se documents were prepared by Mr. Rupel in th e co u rse o f w orking on th e problem o f reducing the dioxin th a t had accum ulated in the 2,4,5-T In v e n to ry a t th e Krummrich P la n t, i s t h a t r ig h t? A T h at's rig h t. MR. LOVE: You're ta lk in g about P la in tiffs' Exhibit 348t i V; MR. SKAGGS: I have been referrin g JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 > * . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to P la in tif f .- ' E x h ib it 34S. MR, LOVE: O.K. Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Do you u n d e rsta n d the question? A Yes, i understand the q u estio n . And t h i s E x h ib it 348 does r e f e r t o , i t ' s n otebook pages o f Fred R u p el's in 1971 having to do w ith the rew ork o f th e 2 ,4 ,5 -T e s te r in v e n to ry o f th e Krummrich P la n t. q. And i s , and I 111 hand you f o r your r e - view P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 346t th e re p o rt th a t you J u s t m entioned3 A Yes. The d a ta from 348 was used i n th e p r e p a r a tio n o f th e memo 346. Q Is th e form th a t appears th e re a sta n d ard form t h a t 's used by Monsanto in i t s la b o ra to rie s ? MR. LOVE; Y o u 're now ta l k i n g a b o u t 348? Q (By Mr. S kaggs) I'm r e f e n in g now to 348. A Yes. Those a re copies o f notebook pages th a t are in standard useage in Research. Q T h at's a ra th e r elem entary q u estio n , b u t a l l we have se e n i s m ic ro film so I have ho Id a * what you mean when you say n o te b o o k s. Would you d e s c r ib e th e * <;;; ,,*- ... * n o teb o o k t h a t t h i s page would come from , p le a we. / JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E 44 1 A I t 's a bound book co n tain in g e ith e r 2 50 o r 100 p ag es, depending on th e d ate o f i t , and I 3 b e lie v e th e page s iz e i s 8 - b y - ll and th e form i s shown 4 on th is reduced N itro m icro film copy you have h e re . 5 Q And i s i t th e common p r a c t i c e f o r 6 a l l chem ists to use these notebooks in perform ing th e ir 7 various te s ts and so fo rth ? 8 A In reporting th e ir research re s u lts , 9 yes, th is Is the standard vehicle fo r rep o rtin g re s u lts . 10 Q Did you r e l y on an y o th e r r e p o r ts 11 in p re p a rin g your tw o-page l e t t e r r e g a r d in g th e r e d u c tio n 12 o f d io x in In th e Krunm rich in v e n to ry , w hich was P l a i n 13 t i f f s * E x h ib it #346? 14 A 1 d o n 't r e c a l l . 15 Q I s i t p o s s ib le t h a t you did? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Was Mr. R u p e l's o n ly c o n n e c tio n w ith 18 th e a n a l y s i s o f sam ples f o r TDD t h a t on t h i s p a r t i c u l a r 19 Krummr i c h in v e n to ry p ro b lem , i s t h a t th e on? tim e you 20 e v e r worked on t h i s problem ? 21 MR. LOVE: O b je c t to th e form o f 22 th e q u e s tio n . 23 Q (By Mr. S kaggs) T h a t 's a r a t h e r con 24 f u s in g , d o u b le -b a rr e l -- 25 A I*m n o t p o s i t i v e , in k t I b e l ie v e t h i s JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE ] i s th e o n ly in volvem ent F ree had w ith 2 ,4 ,5 - T . I gueBs 2 I b e tte r re c a n t on th a t. See, Fred worked a t N itro 3 f o r a p e rio d o f tim e , and I d o n 't r e a l l y know w hat h is 4 re s p o n s ib ilitie s were p rio r to th is d ate. 5 Q Are you fa m ilia r w ith h is ed u c atio n al 6 background? 7 A He has a b .S . D egree. I d o n 't r e c a l l 8 from where. 9 CJ Is i t a re q u ire m e n t t h a t la b te c h n ic ia n s 10 have a c o l le g e D egree, o r do you have some p eo p le \ho 11 have o n ly a h ig h sc h o o l Degree? Do you have any k in d o f 12 minimum re q u ire m e n ts? 13 A W e ll, n o , t h e r e 's no h a rd and f a s t 14 re q u ire m e n t. T here a r e la b te c h n ic ia n s t h a t d id n o t 15 have c o lla g e D eg rees. I f th e y do have a c o lle g e D egree, 1 we n o rm a lly d o n 't c a l l them te c h n ic ia n s . We c a l l them 17 r e s e a r c h c h e m is ts . 18 Q Do you have to have a c o l le g e D egree 19 to ru n gas ch rom atograph sam ples and o b ta in r e l i a b l e 20 re su lts? 21 A No. 22 Q And t h a t 's a ta s k t h a t a la b te c h n ic ia n 23 w ith o u t a c o l le g e D egree c o u ld s a t i s f a c t o r i l y p erform ? 24 A I t depends on th e d o o p le x ity ^ f ^ e 25 a n a l y s i s . Some a n a ly s e s r e q u ir e a l o t ' raore d e t a i l e d JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE a b i l i t y th an o t h e r s . Some r e q u ir e sam ple p r e p a r a tio n . In genera1, a non-degreed tech n ician can be tra in e e to do r e lia b le chrom atographic an aly ses. Q Can he be tr a in e d to do r e l i a b l e chrom atographic dioxin analyses? A Yes. Q Would t h a t e x te n d to t e t r a l e v e l dioxin analyses? A Yes. Q Including 2,3,7,8? A Yes. MR. LOVE: 1 assum e y o u 'r e sp e ak in g in term s o f to d a y t now? Q (By Mr. S kaggs) We' r e sp eak in g in term s o f to d a y . How a b o u t back In 1965? A W ell, i f I'm answ ering about today, I'm not e n tir e ly sure th a t a non-degreed person could be r e lie d upon to do th e more s o p h is tic a te d a n a ly ti c a l procedures th a t a re being used today. I'm n o t e x p e rt enough to comment on t h a t , b u t I know th e p ro c e d u re s a r e much more dem anding. And I r a t h e r d o u b t t h a t a te c h n ic ia n could be r e lie d upon to do them. The methodology th a t was available in th e 1960's and e a r l y ; w e s , a f c - le a s t methodology that we used, could be done by a; trained technician. - JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE % 1 Q I'm finisher? with that exh ib it. I'd { 2 l i k e to hand you w h a t's bean marked f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n 3 purposes a s P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h i n i t 349 (Monsanto #055679, 4 e t a 1) t and i ' l l note t h a t I ' m t e n d e r i n g a copy to Mr. 5 Love and Ms. King f o r t h e i r revie w . 6 Do you re c o g n iz e th e f i r s t page o f 7 document 349 8 A I ' m su re I ' ve seen i t b e fo re . I 9 recognize the form, 1 recognize the w ritin g and I recog 10 n iz e the s u b je c t n a t t e r . 11 Q Now, a r e you f a m i l i a r w ith Mr. Ja n e s 12 Sims whose name a p p e a rs in the. ''P rep ared by" box a t 13 th e top o f th is page? 14 A Y es. 15 Q How a r e you f a m il ia r w ith him? 16 A He worked w ith me and f o r me d u r i n g 17 th e l a t e ^ O 's . 18 Q Do you happen to r e c a l l d u rin g w hat 19 s p e c i f i c p e rio d o f time in th e l a t e *60' s he worked f o r you? 20 A No, I c a n ' t r e a l ly be s p e c if ic . 21 Q In th e c o u rse o f s u p e r v is in g him you 22 became f a m i l i a r enough w ith h is h a n d w ritin g to be a b l e 23 to re c o g n iz e i t h e re to d a y , is t h a t r i g h t ? - v : 24 V - .\\v t" A T h at's rig h t. *fj V 25 * i f *v*`, :tq There is a name a p p e a rs a t th e bottom JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE w h ic h -s a y s , "Read and u n d ersto o d L y ,'* w ith s o u t h i n g B ernard. A T hat was W illis 'je m a r d , She was a la d y t h a t was a te c h n ic ia n in th e g ro u p . Q what is the sig n ific a n c e o f her s ig n atu re appearing a t the bottom o f th e page? A T his, ag ain , is a notebook page copy, and th e re is a box a t the bottom o f a l l notebook page co p ier which sa id "Read a n t understood by1 and t h a t 'r sig n e d by someone who can u n d e rsta n d the s u b je c t m a tte r, and i t 's a requirem ent o f our P aten t Department to do th i s . I'm n o t e x a c tly su re o f the re a so n s. Q You* 11 have to excu se me. I'm j u s t kind of curious about th a t. Is she a pro o fread er\ A No, n o t a p ro o fre a d e r. I th in k th e main th r u s t is i f you have som ething t h a t 's p a te n ta b le th a t y o u 're in v e n tin g , you want to have a w itn ess th a t u n d e rsta n d s when t h a t 's done and u n d e rsta n d s th e work, Q What was Mr. S im s' d u tie s ? A He was a te c h n ic ia n , and h is d u t i e s were p rim arily a n a ly tic a l, analyzing sam ples. Q In th e c o u rse o f h is d u tie s was he resp o n sib le fo r an aly zin g samples f o r d i o x i n ? . A Yes, he was. *.*' * / v ;*4^ ^ 1 ' Q Was he s o l e l y responsible for >th a t or JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE did he share that r e sp o n sib ility with others? MR. LOVE; Objection to the form. Go ahead and answer i t . A O.K. At the time o f these re su lts in *68, 1 b eliev e he was the only one resp on sib le. There were others before and a fte r in certa in periods o f time. We talked about Rupel, for in stan ce Q (By Mr. Skaggs) What was the mechan ism Involved in providing Mr. Sims with the samples they would analyze? A The samples on the f i r s t page are you referrin g to now? Q Well, as his supervisor you're gener a l l y fam iliar with h is work, is n 't that right? A Yes. Q Could you describe for u s, p lea se, the general procedures th at were followed in your lab in providing him with samples to analyze for dioxin? A W ell, y o u 'll have to repeat the q uestion. Are you referrin g to the staples on the f i r s t page? Mow, these samples are from a p articu lar source and there was a certa in procedure. There may have been samples analyzed from other sources^ Q A ll r ig h t. How .f. - . source from looking a t th is document^ JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 A X can t e l l by looking a t the f i r s t 2 l i n e where I t says W.R.U.' and a number t h a t th is number 3 I s one o f my noteb o o k pages and i t cams from my la b o r a 4 t o r y , p ro b a b ly from my la b o r a to r y I n v e s t i g a t i o n . 5 Q Can you d eterm in e from t h a t number 6 w hat p la n t th e sam ples came from? 7 A No, no, I c a n 't* In f a c t -- I t says 8 1 -2 7 . So, a g e In , i t looks v e ry much l i k e t h i s was a 9 la b o r a to r y p r e p a r a tio n t h a t I c e d e . D id n 't come from a 10 p l a n t . 11 Q A l l r i g h t . Now, we a r e making a 12 l i t t l e b i t o f p r o g re s s . Would you e x p la in t h a t , p le a s e , 13 t h e a s k in g o f la b o r a to r y p r e p a r a tio n f o r a n a l y s i s b y 14 Mr. Sim s. 15 A We ta lk e d a b o u t a r e s e a r c h program l t h a t we c a r r i e d o u t whose o b je c ti v e was to f in d c o n d itio n s 17 t h a t would re d u c e o r e lim in a te th e p re s e n c e o f d io x in 18 i n 2 ,4 ,5 - T . What I'm s a y in g i s t h a t t h i s was p a r t o f 19 t h a t la b o r a to r y s tu d y , t r y to e s t a b l i s h th e c o n d itio n s 20 t h a t le d to d io x in . 21 I w ant to make s u r e I u n d e rsta n d I t . 22 I n 1968 Mr. S im s' r e s p o n s i b i l i t y was to a n a ly z e th e s e 23 * . 'O'^ specimens that you prepared for d ioxin , i s th at correct? , *i Y 24 A That m s part o f fcls d u tiiis. - * ._ fj' 25 Q Did he or anyone '#e'vfS*-TO''*iHr t JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 5: *. \ '1 th a t perio d o f tim e an aly ze samples from production 2 p lan ts fo r dioxin? 3 A N ot on a r o u t i n e b a s i s . I th in k we 4 4 had a sam p lin g program some t i n s w ith th e p la n t w here 5 samples were se n t to S t. Louis f o r a n a ly s is . 6 q Do you r e c a l l a n y d e t a i l s a t a l l 7 ab u t th a t sam pling plan? 8 A I th in k we d is c u s s e d one o f tb o s e 9 e a r l i e r th is morning. I don' t r e c a ll e x a c tly . There 10 ware e ith e r - two o r th r e e o c c a s io n s an d w ent in and ask ed 11 th e N itr o p e o p le to send us sam ples from th e a u to c la v e 12 p r o c e s s , 13 q Do you remember th e d a te s o f th o s e U . r occasions? 15 v A Roughly. The f i r s t on e, I b e lie v e , ';;i7-- 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 was in '6 5 , and th e o th e r one t h a t I r e c a l l , I t was in '68. 1 do n o t r e c a l l i f th e re was s t i l l an o th e r one. T here may have been o n ly tw o. Q As I r e c a l l y o u r te s tim o n y e a r l i e r , I 'm s u re o r Mr. Love w i l l c o r r e c t me i f I vm m is ta k e n , b u t I b e lie v e you sa id in '65 you took ab o u t tire e sam ples, is th a t rigH t? A Ye8 . -.- V* A` . Q And how many s a m p lto d ld /y o u -Otto- In 1968? J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E 52 11 A X d o n 't r e c a ll. Agpin, something 2 lik e th re e , I guess th e o th ers - - W ell, I'm so rry , 3 Z j u s t c a n 't r e c a l l how many o f th e s e sam p lin g program s 4 t h e r e w ere. E i t h e r two o r t h r e e . 5 Q Are you a b l e to ta k e a guess a s to 6 when th a t third sam ple m ight have te e n taken? 7 A W e ll, I'm th in k in g t h a t we to o k some 8 sam ples In '6 8 and th e n we to o k some a g a in In *69 when 9 we r a n a p la n t t e s t . So th e r e w ere l i k e a t o t a l o f 10 maybe 10 d i f f e r e n t b a tc h e s th ro u g h o u t a l l th o se p ro g ram s. 11 Q Aside from those in sta n ces, then, 12 there was no other Instance when you supervised the lab 13 a t th is time that you ro u tin ely tested manufacturing 14 .> samples? 15 ; A No, w e ll, w a it a m in u te. Would you .16 r .V f- ' ^ r e p e a t t h a t a g a in . There was a tim e - - There was a tin ..*W"?vi*._Vv*7". > % when we a n a ly z e d m a n u fa c tu rin g sam ples back in *65. 18 We had a group o f samples we analyzed. We never did 19 r o u tin ely ta k e samples on a routine b a sis from the p la n t. 20 Q And in 1965, th e n , t h a t w a s n 't p a r t 21 o f a r o u t i n e p r a c t i c e b u t p a r t o f a r e s e a r c h p r o j e c t , 22 i s t h a t r i g h t ? r .. .. ' `.-vs-i'V y f& v : . 23 A W ell, yeah. Whoa** f l r s t analyxod, 24 1e a rn e d how t o a n a ly z e f o r d io x in , w i .lm l y a e ^ s c j p 25 re ta in e d sam ple*. * .. ' JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE \ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 - :5 %:%-*'i* 16 I- *1' .'K**";. . ? *,*; i ' "** T i' . ^ j. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A bout how many sam ples d id you -analyze fo r d io x in In 1965? A A bout 15 o r 20. ifeybe 25. 1 d o n 't re c a ll. Q You c h a r a c te r i z e d th e s e a s r e t a i n e d sa m p le s. What does t h a t mean? A The la b o r a to r y a t N itro and our o th e r p la n ts have a sample r e te n tio n program where ob v io u s ly th e r e 's no room to save ev ery sample t h a t 's ta k e n , so th e y r e t a i n c e r t a in sam ples The sam ples t h a t had been r e t a i n e d , we ask e d f o r p o r tio n s o f th o se and they se n t us e ith e r the p o rtio n or the f u ll sample, I d o n 't know w hich. Q Who d e c id e d w h eth er a sam ple would be saved o r destroyed a t the plant? A I d o n 't Inow. I presume i t would be th e C hief Chemist a t th e p la n t. . d e e ls ion? Q And how would he go a b o u t a s k in g t h a t -i A I r e a l l y d o n 't know. Q Do you know i f th e r e was a w r i t t e n p o lic y fo r him to follow ? A No, I d o n 't knot'Is; q This sounds usual occurrence In 1965* Did a memo or mambisndua go out JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 5i 1 to N itro a d v is in g them o f th e purpose o f th ese t e s t s and 2 iso fo rth ? 3 i 4 A I don' t re c a ll. Q Do you r e c a l l an y s p e c i f i c c o rre s p o n 5 dence betw een S t . Louis and M onsanto in 1955 when th e se re ta in e d samples were analyzed by you reg ard in g th a t 7 te stin g procedure? 8 A Regarding the procedure fo r analyzing 9 fo r dioxin? 10 Q Uh huh (y e s ) . 11 A What tim e fram e a r e you t a l k i n g a b o u t? 12 Q In 165 when you u n d e rto o k to t e s t 13 th e s e r e t a i n e d sam ples f o r d i o x i n , do you. r e c a l l any 14 com m unications betw een S t. L ouis and M onsanto? 15 A S t . L ouis and - - 16 Q Between you and th e N itr o r i a n t , 17 A Do I r e c a l l a n y co rre sp o n d e n c e - - 18 No, I d o n 't r e c a l l . I d o n 't rem em ber. T here was 19 com m unication, b u t w h eth er i t was in th e form o f c o r 20 resp o n d e n ce, I don' t know. 21 Q Did you p e r s o n a lly p a r t i c i p a t e in 22 t h a t com m unication? 23 A I spoke to B i l l B a ld e r son s e v e r a l 24 o c c a s io n s . . 25 Q What w ere th e nature o f th o s e JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 55 c on v er sa t ione- ? A W ell, i t was a d isc u ssio n o f th s f a c t t h a t wo had o b ta in e d a n a n a l y t i c a l p ro c e d u re , a n a l y t i c a l s ta n d a rd o f d io x in from Dow and t h a t we w ished to a n a ly s e w hatever samples? were s t i l l r e t a i n e d in N itro to see what the e x ten t o f d io x in in our samples m ight be. Did you a d v is e him w ith re g a rd to s e le c tin g r^rcicula-T scruples to be sen t to 5 t. Louis fo r fu rth e r analysis? -A I d o n 't r e c a l l . X th in u what we s a i d , we ask ed w h eth er th e re w ere any sam ples r e ta in e d because we d i d n 't know, and I th in k he d i d n 't knov; e i t h e r p ro b a b ly a t th e tim e . He' g o t back to me and to ld me what was a v a i l a b l e . Now, w hether we g o t ev e ry sam ple t h a t was re ta in e d a t th a t time cr j u s t s e le c te d ones I d o n 't r e c a l l . Q Do you r e c a l l d is c u s s in g w ith him d isp o sal o f e x is tin g samples? A No. (J Do you r e c a l l d is c u s s in g w ith him the to x ic o lo g ic al c h a ra c te ris tic s of dioxin? A I d o n 't re c a ll s p e c ific a lly , but I know th e r e was enough co n c ern r a i s e d a t th e tim e t h a t th e m a te r ia l c o u ld be h azard o u s t h a t we w ere recommending extrem e care in handling the m aterial JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 56 %* s 1 Q Now, d e s c r ib e t h i s ex trem e c a r e . 2 W e ll, I'm n o t a c h e m is t, s e e . You sa y to a s extjaae c a r e , 3 w e l l , I d o n 't knov? what c a r e l e s s h a n d lin g o f ch e m ic als i s . ' 4 A Avoid c o n ta c t w ith th e m a te ria l is 5 the b asic. 6 Q And how d o .y o u do t h a t ? 7 A W ell, you sim ply d o n 't allow any to 8 g e t on your sk in . 9 Q I'm ig n o ran t about th ese th in g s , 1 10 w ant you to t e l l me how one goes a b o u t a v o id in g ex p o su re 11 in th e la b o r a to r y . As th e l i n e o f my q u e s tio n s u g g e s ts , 12 I ' m s t i l l i n t e r e s t e d in th e s e r e t a i n e d sa m p les. How 13 when th e y came in to th e la b would you h a n d le them? 14 A We w e r e n 't p a r t i c u l a r l y co n cern ed 15 a b o u t a i r b o r n e ex p o su re b e c a u se we knew t h a t th e m a te r ia l 16 was a s o l i d and was v e ry h ig h b o i l i n g . Our main t h r u s t 17 was to p re v e n t anyone from c o n t a c t in g t h e i r s k in w ith i t . 18 So to t h a t end, we w ere v e ry c a r e f u l when we to o k th e 19 m a t e r i a l t o w eigh i t o u t o f th e l i t t l e v i a l t h a t i t 20 was in - - t h i s is th e pure d io x in s ta n d a rd th a t I'm 21 t a l k i n g a b o u t now - - in o r d e r to make s o l u t i o n s o f i t 22 to use a s s ta n d a r d s f o r a n a l y s i s . So j u s t t e l l i n g 23 p eo p le to u se extrem e c a r e an d n o t l e t i t con& ctvbar 24 b o d ie s . ^ v>... 25 Q W eil, d id you t e l l them to w ear * J A M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E 57 & V v 1 Impervious, c lo th in g ; 2 A I don' t knot'* i f wo d id o r n o t, h u t 3 t h a t 's n o t a p a r t i c u l a r l y goo;' M m , * don' t th in k . 4 I th in k i t ' s much b e t t e r when you' re xiorviing in th e 5 lab o rato ry to have a l l o f the fe e lin g and touch th a t 6 you can have ra th e r than to have a space s u it on o r 7 som ething lib s th s t where you can ' t handle m a te ria ls 8 w ith a lo t of d e x te rity . 9 q And t h a t in clu d es, d io x in ? 10 A Yeah. n 0 Then your p r e f e r r e d ~r- thod fo r bend lin g 12 d io x in is as much p h y s ic a l c o n tn c t a s you ceo a c h ie v e ? 13 A As l i t t l e p h y n ic n ! c o n t a c t . 14 Q G.X. The moon s u i t i s n ' t a p p r o p r ia te 15 f o r h a n d lin g d io x in ; 16 A .1 d o n 't th in k s o , no . 17 q Now, I ' m s t i l l h av in g tr o u b le g e t tin g 18 & h an d le on how you d e a l t w ith th e s e sa m p les, Did you 19 w ear s u r g i c a l g lo v e s? 20 A We d id n ' t have any p a r t i c u l a r demand 21 upon o u r people t h a t th e y sh o u ld w ear a n y th in g . 22 Q Did you a d v is e them to w ear s u r g i c a l 23 g lo v e s? 24 A I may have a s a n a t t e r o f c o u r s e , y eah . 25 Q Did you a d v is e them to w ear la b c o a ts ? J A M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E 58 m '> V- .. ! 2 3 4 1 5 6 7 8 9 10 h 11 t 12 J 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 V / T don' t er;Gmb?.r. i Q Did you d is c u s s w ith Mr. B alderson th e proper handling of these samples? A No, I don't b e li^ v 0 7 dfd in any p a r t i c u l a r d e t a i l , X c e r t a i n l y mentioned to him probably in w ritin g th a t sam oles, th a t he should avoid co n tact w ith the m aterial. Q But you d id n ' t go an y f u r t h e r th an th a t? A T don't re c a ll. 0 Did Mr. B alderson seek your a d v ic e w ith regard to the handling o f the samples? A Not th a t I remember. Q Some tim e b ack I b e lie v e you s a id , we w ere naming th e d a te s on w hich you would have been an aly zin g n an u factu rln g samples fo r d io x in and you used the phrase the o la n t's te s t. A Yes. Q A gain, I 'm ig n o ran t. Is th a t re fe rrin g to a s p e c if ic o c c a sio n , o r w hat does t h a t term mean to you? A There w ere some t e s t b a tc h e s made in , I b e lie v e , ' 69, e a rly ' 69, in which the p la n t used th e c o n d itio n t h a t I had d ev elo p ed in th e c o u rs e o f my work to tr y to reduce d io x in le v e l, so th o se co n d itio n s were te s te d in the p la n t over a period o f several hatches. Q Excuse me. I missed the l e s t sev e ra l - - JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S ER V IC E 59 . 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kow long? A Several hatches, Q Vef l l 'ta lk ab o u t th a t f o r a moment. Who was th e s u p e rv is o r In c h a r t s o f d i r e c t i n g M ousento to tc i.t th is procedure.? L I d o n 't know t h a t one p e rso n s a i d , you know, do t h i s . P e l l , th e n , how d id i t come a b o u t th a t h itr o undertook to run e te s t o f your proposecprocedure ? / V e il, in the r^ t-u n u course- o f th in g s people a t K itro a r u e l ; er* p eo p le in R esearch w ere iwr-rc t h a t we were tr y in g to dev elo p methods t.lir.r. led to r e duced d io x in . People in N itro were q u ite in te re s te d in t h i s , so X d isc u sse d i t w ith them fre q u e n tly , I went to the p la n t, ee " mentioned e a r l i e r , and discu ssed th e c o n d itio n s t h a t I had d e v e lo p e d . As a consequence o f th i s a p la n t t e s t was p lan n ed by th e p eo p le in th e p l a n t . Now, I Qon*t know t h a t any p a r t i c u l a r in d iv id u a l was re sp o n sib le fo r i t . Q Who were th e p eople a t th e p la n t t h a t you worked w ith on th is t e s t? A Ed T aake, I b e lie v e I g e t a l i t t l e co n fu se d a s to who was th e r e .. The names Edward Xaake, Gene O u trig h t, V em Rhodes - - X th in k V ern was th e JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 60 Department S upervisor a t the tim e o f the p la n t t e s t . Q You r e c a l l an y o th e r s p e c i f i c names? A B alderson. Yeah, th e re were se v e ra l o th e r people a t th e p la n t. Ja c k Strum I'm try in g to t h i n k o f o t h e r s . There a r e o th e r s 1 c a n 't r e c a l l r i g h t now. Q Did you c o n s u lt w ith D r. W allace r e garding th is te s t? A No. ' Q Y o u 're aw are o f who D r. W allace i s ? A Not f o r s u r e . He s a y have been a plant doctor a t N itro. Q T h a t's c o r r e c t . Do you r e c a l l , and I r e a l i z e you may n o t remember nam es, do you r e c a l l o r g a n iz a tio n a l p o s it io n s you may have d e a l t w ith a t N itro regarding th is te st? A Yeah. Talked to th eS u p erin ten d en t o f A g ric u ltu ra l Products M anufacturing a t N itro , 1 th in k t h a t was Ed T aake, and to V era R hodes, who was th e D epartm ent S u p e r v is o r , and t o some o f th e T e c h n ic a l S ervice Department en g in eers. Q Do you r e c a l l w h eth e r I have shown you a n e x h ib it which encompasses th e procedures th a t you w ere t e s t i n g a t t h a t tim e , an d I 111 be happy to make them a v a ila b le , th e ones you reviewed so i h r for ' r* * your help. JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 61 1 MR. LOVE; I don' t u n d e rsta n d v h a t 2 you' re ask in g him. 3 Q (By Mr. S kaggs) L e t me g iv e you 4 the e x h ib its you have review ed so f a r and ask you i f 5 the p ro ced u re t h a t was te s t e d in 1965 was c o n ta in e d in 6 any o f them. 7 A 1 d o n 't b eliev e i t was. 8 Q Was t h a t p ro c e d u re In w r i tin g ? 9 A W ell, i t was the s u b je c t o f a f i n a l 10 r e p o r t . 11 Q I have rev iew ed th e e x h ib its so f a r 12 J u s t b r i e f l y . A g p ln , i t ' s my Ig n o ra n c e . I 'm h an d in g 13 you E x h ib it 347, w hich i s a P ro g re ss R e p o rt. Now, i s 14 t h a t w hat y o u 'r e ta lk in g a b o u t, o r a r e you r e f e r r i n g to 15 a n o th e r document? 16 A No. n i l s had n o th in g to do w ith t h a t 17 w ork. 18 Q And t h a t p ro c e ss t h a t we a r e t a l k i n g 19 a b o u t w o u ld n 't a p p e a r on a form such a s t h i s , an d I 'm 20 re f e r rin g to E x h ib it 347? 21 A T h a t's a P ro g re s s R e p o rt form . No. 22 I t was on a F i n a l R ep o rt form , w hich i s somewhat d i f f e r e n t . 23 Q To whom was t h a t -jg p p o rt form a d d re s s e d ? 24 A I th in k we d is e u e a e d t h a t e a r l i e r . 25 , * * - ..... r. I t '8 r a th e r wide d is tr ib u tio n , and I don' t r e c a ll e x a c tly JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 62  : , > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 who was on th e d i s t r i b u t i o n . Q W ell, what were the re s u lts o f the te s ts ? MR, LOVE: Which t e s t s a r e we ta lk in g about? Q (By Mr. S kaggs) What w ere th e r e s u l t s o f the p lan t te sts? A The p la n t t e s t r e s u l t s w ere t h a t the 1 av erag e le v e l o f d io x in on c o n tro l b a tc h e s , w hich means the then e x is tin g process co n d itio n s, gave an average o f a b o u t 10 p a r ts p e r m illio n d io x in in t h a t in te rm e d ia te a u to c la v e s tre a m . The t e s t b a tc h e s u n d er th e new con- d itlo n s gave a b o u t 3 p a rts p er m illio n on th e a v e ra g e . Q Was t h i s proposed m a n u fa c tu rin g process form ally adopted on a ro u tin e b asis? A No. Q Why n o t? A B ecause we s h o r t l y t h e r e a f t e r sto p p e d m anufacturing i t . Q How soon a f t e r you ra n th e t e s t s d id you stop m anufacturing it? A X d o n 't r e c a l l . I t was a m a tte r o f a few months. Q You mean f i v e , s i x m o n th s,-so m eth in g lik e that? A I d o n 't know. P o s s ib le . J A M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E 63 ' . \ <1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 M?.., LOVE: I d o n 't know w h eth e r y o u 're through w ith w h a t's been marked E x h ib it 349 or n o t, b u t what th is e x h ib it a p p e a r s , ae b e s t 1 can t e l l from th e numbering, th a t the pages a re a l l kind o f put together in d iffe re n t fash io n , they are out of o rd er, and the num erical system located in the lower righthand corner does not appear to be consecutive. A The low er rig h th a n d c o m e r w o u ld n 't have much to do w ith i t . I t ' s th e u p p er r ig h th a n d c o r n e r . MR. LOVE; I d o n 't know t h a t t h a t means a n y th in g , b u t I m entioned i t f o r th e purpose of the record. MR. SKAGGS: I 'm n o t a t a l l s u r e j u s t w hat happened. T here a r e some numbers on th is page which a re stamped a t the top upper rig h th an d co m e r and the lower r ig h t- hand co m er. Q (By Mr, S kaggs) Now, do you re c o g n iz e those? I'm r e f e r r in g to 85310 and a t the bottom r ig h t- hand co m er 055679. .. . A W ell, th e 85310 i s th e n o te b o o k ..page num ber. I d o n 't know what th e 055679 is * f ?*- Q T h a t's a p p a re n tly an'A gent Orange * J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E 64 00 s '1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 id e n tif ic a tio n number, so 1*11 r e f e r in the fu tu re to the number in the lower rig h th an d c o rn er. MR. LOVE; I would su g g e st an example of what I'm ta lk in g ab o u t, the f irs t, page in the upper rig h th an d corner is 85310, the second page is 85311 and the th ir d page is 85313, su g g e stin g th a t 85312 i s n o t th e r e . T hat*s j u s t a comment I have to make, so the e x h i b i t a p p e a rs to be i n - com plete. MR. SKAGGS: W ell, as y o u 'r e aw are of the c o n d itio n in which th e se documents were d e liv e re d to u s, th e re were a number of pages which appear to be co n secu tiv e th a t d id n 't appear as consecutive pages in th e r o l l s o f m ic ro film so t h a t may have been the prciiem h e re . Q (By Mr. Skaggs) In any e v e n t, to re tu rn to th e p la n t t e s t r e s u l t s , what a l l you d isc o v ered , th e n , was th a t th e average le v e l dropped from 10 p a rts per m illion to 3 p arts per m illio n but you d id n 't in s ti- tu te th e p la n because in a few months th e p la n t was sh u t down? A R ight. Q Did you have any in p u t in to th e d e c is io n J A M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E 65 ## . 1 <1 \ 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 > to cjokc frhci p la n t? A No. Q Did you a n t i c i p a t e the p o s s i b i l i t y th a t d io x in le v e ls might a c tu a lly in c re a se as a r e s u lt of this process? K: . LOVE: I'm go in g to o b je c t to the form of the q u e stio n . C LOy tf r . Skaggs) P ro c e s s , o f c o u rs e , I'm r e f e r r i n g to I f tV* proposed p ro ced u re th a t th e y were te s tin g during th is p la n t t e s t in 1969. A Did 1 have any a n t ic i p a tio n th a t they would in c re ase ? Q Yes, s i r . A ho, none. Q Die you view the n e c e s s ity o f ta k in g any sp ecial precautions regarding exposure to dioxin during the running of th is te s t? A N o th in g beyond w hat was s ta n d a rd in the p la n t. Q Was any o th e r p erso n n e l th e r e f o r th e sp e c ific purpose of viewing the production of these b atch es, of su p e rv isin g the employees th ere? A I d o n 't r e c a l l . Anyone o u tsid e o f the o rd in a ry p la n t s u p e rv is io n , you mean? Q Exactly. J A M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E 66 g* t v1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 s A Not: t h a t I knoo; o f . Q Was i t l e f t to th e o r d in a r y plant. s u p e rv is o rs to im plem ent th is p ro ced u re? A Yes. W ell, I d o n 't r e a l l y know. Who e l s e b e s id e s y o u r s e lf in S t . Louis was involved in th is p la n t t e s t procedure? lift. LOVE: O b je c t. I t ' s been asked and answered but go ahead and answ er him a g a in i f you can . ^ A Nobody t h a t I know o f t h a t X can r e c a l l . Q (3j* Mr. Skaggs) I 'd lik e to r e t u r n now to E x h ib it 349. O ff th e r e c o r d . (Whereupon d is c u s s io n was had o f f the reco rd .) Q (by Mr. Skaggs) Have you had an o p p o rtu n ity to review the pages which com prise document #349, which a re the notebook sh e ets b earin g Monsanto Company t i t l e h e a d and sig n e d by James Sims? A Yes, b r ie f ly . Q And d id you re c o g n iz e Mr. S im s' name on each and ev ery page? A Yes. V .- Q And d id you re c o g n iz e h is s ig n a tu r e on each and ev ery page? i A Yes. . r JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E 67 Q Hid yon r e c o i n h i s h a n d w ritin g as h is h an d w ritin g on each and every pag? of th a t e x h ib it? A Yes, as fa r s i T can t e l l . Q Ion w ore, ai- yon t e s t i f i e d e a r l i e r , h is su p e rv iso r fo r a number o f y e a rs . In the course of su p e rv is in g him, you became f a m ilia r w ith h is h an d w ritin g , is that correct? / Vef;, t h a t 's c o r r e c t . 0 I 1-'* lik e to la n d you what tiaii beer, marked fo r id e n tif ie s tio n purposes as P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #350 (Monsanto 69535, et: a l ) . I note f o r the re-;.ore th a t I 'm te n d e rin g a copy to Mr. hove, end 1 would a s k you to ta k e a moment and review t h a t docum ent, p le a s e . MR. LOVR; I ' n go in g to o b je c t w ith regard to the f i r s t page of th a t document: in t h a t i t 1.1 c l c a r l 3* a tto rn e y work p ro d u c t. I t ' s a t i t l e sh e e t th a t should not hav* been produced, b u t, o b v io u s ly , i t was produced in a d v e r t e n t l y . And you have my o tje c tio n to t h a t , MR. SKAGGS: You' re j u s t making i t fo r the record? I assume y o u 're not going - <"*T to I n s tr u c t him n o t to answer th e -q u e stIo n s . MR. LOVE; V e i l , I ' l l w a it and see i what the questions are. JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE i- n --1 51 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 UR. SKAGGi: Doe;-; your o b je c tio n o n ly go to th e co v ^ r.' 9;ie=C :t i t i n t document? MR. X-.IV'i ; At t\'iis "O inn , Yes , th e o n ly on.* I* ye s e e n . A Yon w ant me to go th ro u g h a l l th e s e page;? ? v; (By Mr. Skaggs) W e ll, why don' t w you ta k e a lo ^k r.'.to f i r s t th r e e pages o f document ir350, -if i s h s b -te e 2 ,4 ,5 -Y P ro c e ss and i t c o n ta in s an a tta c h m e n t, w hat a p p e a r to be two h a n d w ritte n p a g e s , and the Agent Orange document numberr a re 69535 and 6 9536 . Kgve you ha d a n oppor tu n i t y to re v lew th o se docum ents? A Just briefly. ^ Now, o o you re c o g n iz e them? A h o , I c o n 1*-'. Q And,once a g a in , I n o tic e they a re sig n e d by Mr. B a ld e rso n . Do you re c o g n iz e t h a t a p p e a rs to be a page from e notebook? Do you re c o g n iz e t h a t form at all? A 'N o. I t ' s the same form as on the previous document. I th in k i t ' s the la b o ra to ry , the sm all la b o ra to ry books they use a t N ttro , b u t - I 'm n o t su re . Q Would you d e s c r ib e f o r me, p le a s e , th e kind of recordkeeping th a t they did a t the lab o rato ry a t J A M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E 69 1 Nitro. 2 MR, L0V2; 15 you know. 3 A I as noc f a m i l i a r w ith -- I know 4 th a t they had lab notebooks and I b eliev e they had 5 p e r f o r a t e d pages. I was n v c r f u l l y aware o f t h e i r reporting procedures. 7 CJ (By Mr. S kaggs) Have you had an 8 o p p o rtu n ity to rc,d Agent Orange page number 695357 9 A Yes. 10 Q '..`h a t 's he doing th e re ? 11 A H e's a n a l y z i n g samples of2 , 4 , 5-T 12 f o r d io x in . 13 And do you re c o g n is e any f ig u r e s 14 on t h a t page w hich to you would he the r e s u l t ^ o f th o se 15 t e s t s ? 16 A he. In f a c t , a.'? 1 read i r wore c a r e 17 f u l l y , h e 's a n a ly z in g a u to c la v e s a b l e s and h e 's r e p o r t 18 in g , a p p a r e n tly , th e t o t a l phen o ls in th e a u to c la v o 19 sam ples on t h i s p ag e, 20 Q But a s I u n d e rsta n d I t , th e n , you 21 d o n 't see th e re where he ha? a r r iv e d a t a f ig u re t h a t 22 would r e p r e s e n t a le v e l o f d io x in in th o s e sam ples? 23 MR. LOVE: I'm g o in g .to o b je c t to. 24 t h i s lin e o f q u e s tio n in g con w hat i s a^ document 25 o b v io u s ly p re p a re d by a n o th e r p rso n w hich JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 70 s1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 t h i s -'t-nesr. hsa t"-'? ho *s neve;? seer* b e f o r e and 5.V your inqvjr>n r- o f hi.ra ab o u t the c o n t e n t o f t h a t document: which p u r p o r ts ; ]y speaks- f o r I t s e l f and a s k in g !;ifj t o determ ine whu t the th o u g h t p r o c e s s v&r c f the w r i t e r in 1969. You ca n Misv/ar h i : q u e s t i o n . T may b r i e f l y c l a r i f y f o r the r'--vore?, u lt a V y*a a ; king him i s b a s e r on h is e d u c a tio n and e x p e r i e n c e and f a m ilia r ity with the recordkeeping and Laboratory r.rondures* a t Monsanto i f h e ' s a b l e to d e te r m in e what p r o c e s s Mr. r ^ l d e r s o n was u r i n e and i f h e ' s a b l e to interpret: th is oocui&nt as co n tain in g any r e s u l t s a? ^ r e s u '. r o f ~ t e s t i n g program. Q (?iy Mr. Ekagg?) Mow, g o you r e c o g n i s e a n y f i g u r e s on t h e r e t h a t r e p r e s e n t d i o x i n ? A Yes. I believe th a t th is second column w ith the top number being 4 . 3 , 1 t h i n k t h a t ' s a d io x in a n a l vei s , end in the l a s t column I b e lie v e is e to ta l phenols analysis. Q Do you se e an y i n d ic a t io n t h a t t h a t dioxin lev el is p arts per m illion or p arts per b illio n o r some o th e r f ig u r e ? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 71 '1 2 /3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 >Ti.Z "V-' s> pr l.yj T'jp to ob j t c r to the q u e s tio n . Yovr a? Wee' him what he se^s or a page, I f you cat: answer the q u e s t i o n , go ahead anc Co i t . A T here' s no tilin g on th e page th a t t e l l s what the unite e re in e ith e r case, Q rr.y Skaggs) Would i t be a common p r a c tic e to in d ic a te on th e page what th e u n its a r e i HP., T.0V2; I 1a going t o o b je c t to the form o f th a t question, a l s c , You're now a s k in g him a b o u t a common p r a c tic e a t K itro , and h e 's alread y te s tif ie d he d i d n 't know w hat the p r a c t i c e s were a t K itro . I f you can answer i t , answer i t . A I co n 1u know. T hat w i l l be done sometimes on a re se a rc h notebook, and I assume in a p la n t notebook you m ight do th a t som etim es. I f you had on an e a r l i e r page s e t the g u id e lin e s , sa y , th a t in th e f u tu r e we w o n 't say ppm b u t i t w i l l be i n f e r r e d , Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Eut you would a g r e e a s a common p r a c t ic e in th e f i e l d o f c h e m is try i t would be th e p ro p e r p ro c e d u re to in d ic a t e th e u n its - th o se fig u res should re p re se n t, is th a t rig h t? A I ju s t explained th a t th a t is n o t JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1- f ; i, 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 n e c e s s a r i l y the cai)-:, Tha fr i f y h a v e s e t your p ro ce d u re s e a r l i e r a no d e s c rib e d th e n on a n o teb o o k p ag e, th e n tte r e 's no need to r e p e a t i t . h Ae s a l e tiiac th e sam ples Lied been an a ly ze d in i t . L ouis, ^ s you a b le to d eterm in e froc* yoir review of th is document w hether th o se sam ples would have been analyzed by your o f fic e o r from the d ate o f the document w hether th o te were samples involved in any o f the p ro c e r ? te s tin g th a t you e a r l i e r d e s c rib e e ; A 1 d o n * t know o f anyone e l s e a t the tim e who would have been do in g a n a ly se ? b u t our g ro u p , so I assume i f they were analyzed in S t. L ouis, they vare a n a ly z e d by my g ro u p . Q And 1 b e lie v e your t e r n loony was t h a t i f they a re analyzed by your group a t th a t p erio c o f tim e, th e y would have beer, a n a ly z e d by lix. . L in s , i s t h a t r i g h t ? A Yes. In f a c t , I do re c o g n iz e th e numbers now t h a t I lo o k a t them more c l o s e l y . They a r e numbers from the batches taken d u rin g the p la n t t e s t s , I believe. Q So i f I may, r e f e r r i n g to document 69535, ab o u t a t h i r d o f th e way down th e p ag e, w hich is a rep ro d u ctio n o f a notebook, a s e r ie s o f numbers th a t b eg in a t number 149 and end a t number ^L57 and in columns c o rre sp o n d in g to each o f th o se numbers a r e %DD f ig u r e s JAMES MAYREPORTINGSERVICE 0 73 \ 1 and to ta l phenol fig u re s , and i t 's your testim ony th a t 2 th e se a re samples th a t were taken in the course of 3 the p la n t te s ts th a t you e a r l ie r d escrib ed ? 4 A 1 c a n 't be c e r t a i n , b u t I b e lie v e 5 t h a t to be th e c a s e . 6 Q I'd lik e to d ire c t your a tte n tio n 7 to A gent Orange 69536, and i f you would ta k e a moment 8 to review th a t. 9 A Uhhuh (yes). 10 Q L ik ew ise, a r e you f a m il ia r w ith what 11 Mr. E a ld e rso n i s doing h ere? 12 A No, I'm n o t. 13 Q Do you u n d e rsta n d th elanguage 14 n e a r th e bottom o f th e page w hich r e a d s , " S ta n d a rd 4 15 s o lu t io n produced a TDP peak"? 16 A Oh, yeah. I th in k i t was TDA, b u t 17 i t ' s TDD. 18 Q What do you th in k he meant by th a t? 19 MR. LOVE: O b je c t to th e form . 20 Q (By Mr. S kaggs) Based on y o u r edu 21 c a t i o n , e x p e rie n c e o f th e a r e a o f a n a l y t i c a l c h e m is try , 22 is th a t a term o f a r t ? 23 MR. LOVE; O b je c tio n . A g ain , w hat 24 do you mean, term o f a r t ? - What I s a te rm 25 o f a r t ? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE V 1 Q (By Mr; Skaggs) TDD peak froT 2 s ta nda rd s o lu t Io n . 3 A 1 d o n 't know w hat t h a t means. rt 4 Q W ell, you have no id e a , th en , what 5 he means by making th a t n o ta tio n ? ^ A I 'd had to assume - - I t looks lik e 7 he was having a problem w ith h is a n a l y t i c a l method. 8 Q What was t h a t problem ? 9 MR. LOVE; O b je c tio n to th e form . 10 We a r e g e t tin g o f f in th e a re a o f su rm ise 11 and s p e c u la tio n . The sisw er to th e p re c e d 12 in g q u e s tio n w as, w hich I o b je c te d to , 13 was i t looks lik e he had a problem , and 14 now y o u 'r e a s k in g him wliat t h a t problem 15 a p p e a rs to have been . I f you can answ er 16 i t , answ er i t . 17 A I t a p p e a rs h e 's s a y in g th e s ta n d a rd 18 s o l u t i o n h e 's u s in g d id produce a TDD peak in th e a n a l y s i s . 19 Q (By Mr. S kaggs) In o th e r w o rd s, i t 20 g o t a v e ry h ig h r a t i n g f o r t h a t , i s t h a t r i g h t ? 21 A High r a t i n g ? 22 Q The s ta n d a rd s o l u t i o n produced a n 23 e x tre m e ly h ig h r e a d in g o f TDD? . 24 A I d o n 't know how o u c h . No, 1 h av e 25 no id e a w hat k in d o f a r e a d in g . JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE \ 1 Q w e ll, i f i t .says peak, th a t could 2 have been the h ig h e st reading? 3 A No. A peak of any s iz e is a peak. 4 I t can be huge o r ex tre m e ly s m a ll. I t means a re sp o n se . 5 I t a o e s n vt mean in the se n se o f th e h i g h e s t l e v e l . I t 6 sim ply means t h a t th e re was a re sp o n se , 7 Q Nov, baseo on your f a m ilia r ity w ith 8 th e gas cnroma t o g ^ h p ro c e s s and how you a n a ly z e f o r 9 d io x in u sin g th a t p ro cess, would you have expected the 10 s ta n d a rd s o lu t io n to produce th e h ig h e s t v a lu e f o r th e run? 11 A No, n o t th e h ig h e s t v a lu e . 12 Q Why n o t? 13 A W ell, when one p re p a re s a s ta n d a r d , 14 th e b e s t s ta n d a rd s a r e th o se t h a t ap p ro x im ate th e same 15 s i z e o r same re sp o n se t h a t y o u 'r e g o in g to see in th e 16 sam ple t h a t y o u 'r e a n a ly z in g , so you t r y to a d j u s t jour 17 s ta n d a rd c o n c e n tr a tio n n o rm ally to be somewhat in th e 18 same b a llp a r k a s th e e x p e c te d r e s u l t s from th e sam p les. 19 So, th e r e f o r e , s iz e o f th e peak i d e a l l y i s a b o u t th e 20 same a s th e s i z e o f th e peak t h a t you see In th e sam ples 21 o f th e a n i l i n e s . 22 Q Are you a b le to e x p re s s th e o p in io n 23 r e g a r d in g th e a c c u ra c y o f th e f i g u r e s l i s t e d on 69535 24 a s a r e s u l t o f re v ie w in g t h i s docum ent? .. ; j . '. . 25 MR, LOVE; I'm going to ob ject to JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 76 \ 1 A 2 the form o f the q u e s tio n . You*re a sk in g i him to ex p ress an o p in io n w ith reg ard to 3 numbers on a page p rep ared by someone 4 e ls e which would ap p ear to be o f no 5 value to anyone a t th is p o in t9 b u t you 6 can answer the question i f you can. 7 A These on 69535 th e samples have been 8 analyzed in S t. L ouis, and I th in k th o se numbers a re 9 ones t h a t came from S t. L o u is, i f I u n d e rsta n d t h i s 10 c o r r e c t l y . I f thtf*s th e c a s e t I can comment to some 11 d eg ree on th e a c c u ra c y o f th e method we w ere u s in g in 12 S t. L o u is. I d o n 't r e c a l l . I th in k i t ' s documented 13 in th e m ethod. I d o n 't r e c a l l w hat th e s ta n d a rd 14 a c c u ra c y w as. 15 Q (By Mr. S kaggs) I*d l i k e to d i r e c t 16 your a t t e n t i o n to th e second group o f p ages t h a t com prise 17 In p a r t E x h ib it 350 and a g a in have a c o v e r p ag e , sa y 18 P ro c e ss 2 ,4 ,5 - T and th e y c o n ta in o r i g i n a t o r , t i t l e i n 19 fo rm a tio n and d i s t r i b u t i o n In fo rm a tio n , and I 'd l i k e 20 .to d ir e c t your a tte n tio n to A gent Orange #69562, which 21 i s a tta c h e d to t h a t page. 22 MR.. LOVE; I'm g o in g t o o b je c t to 23 the f i r s t page on the bam b a s is I objected 24 to the f i r s t page o f ttaflufether document. . 25 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) And a s k you to re a d d JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 th at to yourself. A O.K.. Q Do you re c o g n iz e th a c h a n d w ritin g ? A No. Q Are you f a m i l i a r w ith th e name R.H, Cooper which appears a t the bottom o f both 69562 and 69565? A Yes, I'm f a m ilia r w ith the name. Q Who was he? A I d o n 't know. He was th ea u th o r o r s e v e r a l r e p o r ts from l \ i t r o , b u t I n ev er d id know him. Q So th e way youcame to know h is name, though, was because h e 9 I suppose, p rep ared docu ments a t N itro th a t came to your a t t e n t i o n h e re in S t. Louis, is th a t rig h t? A T h at's r ig h t. Q Who was R. A. A tk in so n whose name a p p e a rs a t th e top o f page 69562 and 695 63? A I d o n 't know w hat A tk in s o n 's p o s it io n w as. I d id toow him . I d id m eet him a t th e p l a n t . He was, X b eliev e , an engineer in the p la n t. Q Did you reco g n ize what th ey were doing here? A Yes. Q What a r e th e y doing? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE A hey a re e v a lu a tin g an a lte r n a te source [ of sodium tric h lo ro p h e a a te fo r use in 2 , 4 , 5-T. Q Is th a t p a rt of the p lan t te s t -- W ell, t h i s was two v ea rs e a r l i e r - - i s t h a t p a r t o f th e nrocedure th a t you recommended, I th in k , back in '6 5 , or do you have any knowledge o f m o d ific a tio n o f th e sodium tric h lo ro o h e n a te process? MR. LOVE: I'm g o in g to o b je c t to your q u e stio n on the b a s is th a t I ju s t d o n 't understand i t . Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Do you have any fa m il ia ritv ^ L th the process they are undertaking here? A Yes. Q What were th ey do in g th e re ? MR. LOVE; I'm going to o b je c t to the form of the q u e stio n . Y ou're ask in g the w itness to read a document prepared by somebody e ls e which he t e s t i f i e d h e 's never seen b efo re and y o u 're ask in g him to in te rp re t what people a re doing. If you can answer the q u e stio n , answer i t . A I t a p p e a rs th e y o b ta in e d some sodium trlc h lo ro p h e n a te s o lu tio n from an o th e r company, Hoffmann, Hoffmann L ab o rato ry , and then th ey p u t th is m a te ria l through lab o rato ry p rep aratio n o f 2 ,4 ,5 -T . JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE ^ (By Mr. Skaggs,.- Did your la b o r a to r y i have a n y th in g to do x*ith m o n ito rin g th a t p ro cess? MR, LOVE: What la b o r a to r y you ta lk in g ab o u t? The one a t N itr o , the one in S t. Louis? MR. SKAGGS ; I'm sp e a k in g o f th e la b o ra to ry he worked In In th e co u rse o f h is d u ties th a t h e 's described to us e a rlie r. A Did we have a n y th in g to do w ith moni to rin g the process? Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Y es, s i r . Did you have a n y th in g to do in any kind o f manner in reg a rd to the experim ent t h a t 's d escrib ed on documents 89562 and 89563 which you have J u s t read? A 69 -- Q I a p o lo g iz e . The document w hich you ju st read. A Not to my r e c o l l e c t i o n , we had no knowledge o r in p u t in to t h i s . Q I 'd lik e you to ta k e a moment to r e view th e rem aining documents th a t com prise th is e x h ib it and a d v is e me I f you re c o g n iz e an y o f them a s b e in g r e p o r ts made in th e c o u rse o f t h a t p l e a t t e s t " o r tile 1965 p ro cess t e s t o r i f you re c o g p iz a a n y o f tb e a a s r e garding your in v e stig a tio n o f the 2 ,4 ,5 -T process a t N itro . JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE * V \ ----------------- ------ ----- ( 1 A Of c o u rs e , i t may n o t be p o s s ib le 2 to make t h a t kind o f i d e n t i f i c a t i o n a s I go th ro u g h them. 3 This is a re p e a t. 4 MR. LOVE: The document w hich I 5 b e lie v e y o u 're s u g g e s tin g is A gent Orange 6 #69535 and is found back in th e body o f 7 th e se documents as w e ll a s th e second page, !8 same th in g w ith 69536. 9 A Seems lik e s e v e r a l o f th e s e a r e r e p e a ts . 10 No, t h e r e 's n o th in g e l s e in th e r e t h a t seems to have any 11 c o n n e c tio n . 12 MR, LOVE; I w ould, o f c o u rs e , have a con- 13 tin u i n g o b je c tio n to an y one o f th e s e 14 s h e e ts t h a t a r e stamped ' A tto rn e y Work 15 P ro d u c t, A tto r n e y - C lie n t P r i v i l e g e 11 t h a t 16 a p p e a r w ith in t h a t e x h i b i t . 17 MR. SKAGGS: I u n d e rs ta n d . They 18 a r e such i n f o r n s t i v e docum ents. 19 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) I ' d l i k e to hand 20 you w h a t's been marked f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n p u rp o ses a s 21 P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it # 3 5 1 ,w hich is a document b e a rin g 22 A gent Orange #001564 and a p p e a rs t o be a memorandum from 23 you to E. F . Taake in N itr o . I 'd l i k e you t a ta k e a 24 moment to rev ie w t h a t , p le a s e . 25 /* '-"4' A Yes, I recognise tills . / JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E 8 & 1 0 Is th a t your signature th a t appears ( 2 a t the bottom o f it? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And were you th e a u th o r o f t h i s document? 5 A Yes. Q And does i t a p p e a r to be a t r u e , f u l l 7 and a c c u r a te copy o f th e memorandum t h a t you w ro te? 8 A As n e a r ly a s I can t e l l , y e s . 9 Q The memorandum in d ic a t e s some c o n c lu 10 s io n s t h a t you made and th e y b e g in w ith number 1 , and 11 I*d l i k e you to r e a d , i f you w ould, th e f iv e c o n c lu s io n s 12 t h a t you re a c h e d . 13 A " 1 , D uring A p r i l , 1965, p ro d u c tio n o f 14 TDD ro s e to an a l l - t i m e h ig h and has rem ained much 15 h ig h e r th a n th e p re v io u s norm c u r r e n t , a b o u t 50 ppm, 16 norm al a b o u t 10 ppm. Number 2 , The fo rm a tio n o f TDD 17 ta k e s p la c e a lm o st e n t i r e l y d u rin g th e h o ld p e r io d , 18 3 , A t th e and o f th e h o ld p e rio d th e TCA c o n te n t a c c o u n ts 19 f o r 2 .0 to 2.5% o f th e y i e l d . A bout o n e - h a lf o f t h i s i s 20 .removed by a r e o t r o p ic d i s t i l l a t i o n in th e m ethanol s t i l l 21 and r e c y c le s w ith th e m eth an o l. A, The TCB i s e s s e n t i a l l y 22 gone a t a b o u t one h o u r I n to th e h o ld p e r io d . 5 , E x te n d - 23 4 4* *K lng the hold period r e su lts in increased TDD fonaetlon 24 (h a tc h 7 0 1 )." 25 Q How did you reach those conclusions? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 A y a n a l y s i s o f th e sam ples t h a t we t 2 re fe rre d to e a r l ie r and the a n a ly is o f, I b e lie v e , throe 3 batches th a t were withdrawn from the au to cla v e a t ab o u t 4 th is p o in t in tim e. 5 Q Regarding number 5 , d ie you in te n tio n a lly 6 in crease th e hold period fo r batch 701? 7 A I d o n 't r e c a ll s p e c ific a lly , but I 8 suppose we d id . I would guess t h a t we d id . 9 Q And d id you a n t i c i p a t e when you d id 10 t h a t t h a t in c r e a s in g th e hold c y c le would r e s u l t in. i n n c re a s e d TDD fo rm a tio n ? 12 A A t t h i s tim e we d i d n 't know what tc 13 a n t i c i p a t e . We were sim p ly tr y i n g to le a r n so m ething. U Q Now, th o se a u to c la v e h a tc h e s were 15 made a t N i t r o , i s t h a t r i g h t ? l A R ig h t. 17 Q And t h a t was in th e r e g u la r m a n u fa c tu r 18 in g p a r t o f th e tr ic h lo r o p h e n o l p r o c e s s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? 19 A T h a t's c o r r e c t , 20 Q And d id you ta k e any e x tr a p r e c a u tio n s 21 r e g a r d in g ex p o su re to d io x in when you were parforming th e s e 22 t e s t s ? 23 A No, n o th in g beyond th e p la n t norm. 24 C e r t a in l y n o t t h a t I r e c a l l . 25 Q Would you re a d th e f i n a l p arag rap h o f JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE ,j i & V V i l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 . 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 t h a t memorandum. A ' ' Th- can sf1 o f the r e c e n t in c r e a s e in TDD fo n rrtio r* i s n o t obvious from th e d a ta . However, s in c e TDD fo rm a tio n has beer* r e l a t i v e l y low in th e p a s t , we f e e l t h a t a d e t a i l e d la b o r a to r y s tu d y o f th e a u to c la v e re a c tio n has a re a so n a b ly good chance f o r s u c c e s s . Such a s tu d y i s now in th e p la n n in g s t a g e ." Q Viaa t h a t the s tu d y t h a t we have ta lk e d about earlier? A We ta lk e d a b o u t s e v e r a l s t u d i e s , but t h a t 's one o f th e s tu d ie s we ta lk e d a b o u t e a r l i e r . Q And which o f the s tu d i e s t h a t we ta lk e d a b o u t was t h a t '7 A I t was the stu d y o f the c o n d itio n s , the im portant v ariab les in the autoclave re a c tio n . Q Wa& t h a t th e s tu d y t h a t was d e s c r ib e d in th e h a n d w ritte n document which was e x h ib it - - A No. Q Which was E x h ib it 344? A No. Q I t was n o t th a t? A No. Q What was th e outcome o f t h a t s tu d y , th en ? f. i ; MR. LOVE: I'm g o in g t o o b j e c t , I d o n 't know w hat stu d y you1r e t a l k i n g a b o u t now. J J A M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E Bi  1 By Mr. Skaggs) W all, T*ra tf ilh in s 2 about the study th a t's referred to In the la s t paragraph 3 o f th e memo from Mr. Tide 11 to Mr, Taake d ated Septem ber 4 14, 1965, 5 MR. LOVE: Which I s marked f o r 6 id e n tific a tio n as E xhibit #351. 7 A R ight. 8 Q (Sy !ir. Skaggs) What was th e outcome 9 of th a t study? 10 A The outcome o f t h a t s tu d y was we a id 11 i d e n t i f y v a r ia b le s -- We i d e n t i f i e d c o n d itio n s , l e t ' s 12 s a y , through which we ex p e c te d to m inim ise th e fo rm a tio n 13 o f d io x in . 14 Q H aying i d e n t i f i e d th o s e v a r i a b l e s , \ 15 w hat d id you do th en ? l A Having i d e n tl& d th e c o n d itio n s ? 17 Q Y es, s i r . 18 A W e ll, th e n we proceed ed in to th e 19 p l a n t t e s t s we d is c u s s e d e a r l i e r . 20 Q On t h i s Septem ber 1 4 th , 1965, docum ent 21 w hich i s d e s c r ib e d a s a s tu d y w hich begjan th e n and 22 cu lm in a te d In t h a t p la n t t e s t t h a t concluded In 1979? 23 A T h at's r ig h t. * ~ 24 Q P r i o r to 1969 did you reach any con- 25 elu sion s in t h a t stu d y ? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 A '.'I y y e t . H o it o f the c o n c lu sio n s 2 v?ere developed d u rin g 19Gb. 3 Q But in any event* n o th in g war- a c t u a l l y 4 done w ith i t u n til 1909, is th a t rig h t? 5 MR. LOVE: I ' m g o in g to o b je c t to the to rn , I th in k i t 's p u rely obvious 7 iro n the questions asked and the answers 8 g iv sn thi.tr re s e a rc h was underway to develop 9 i. p ro c e s s which would a c h ie v e th e ends d e s ir e d . 10 HR. SKAGGS: vie11, I th in k t h a t 's - 11 MR. LOVE; I f I may f i n i s h . And 12 t h a t th a t stu d y was co m p leted . I th in k 13 th e c o n c lu s io n s were reac h ed in *6 6 , and 14 when th e c o n c lu sio n s were reach ed the 15 t e s t s were r u n , which o c c u rre d in 1969. 16 HR. SAG(&: I a p p r e c ia te your 17 summary o f the e v id e n c e on t h a t p o in t. 18 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Who i s Mr. Dunlap 19 whose name a p p e a rs a t th e to p o f docum ent 351? 20 A Mr, Dunlap was t h e , I b e l ie v e , M anager 21 o r D ir e c to r o f M a n u fa ctu rin g . I d o n 't r e c a l l h is e x a c t 22 t i t l e . 23 Q And where was he lo c a te d ? Manager o r 24 D ir e c to r o f M a n u fa ctu rin g o f w hat? 25 A S t . L o u is. Of th e A g r i c u l t u r a l R e sea rc h JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 8< D iv is io n -- n o t R e sea rc h . The- A g ric u ltu r e :, d iv is io n o f t Monss n t o . Q -.'ho would he have r e p o r te d to? A He would have r e p o r te d to the g e n e ra l manager o f the d iv is io n . Q Who was Mr. S tep h an s? Mr. S tep h en s was my b o s s . He was R esearch Manager a t t h a t tim e , I b e l ie v e . He was my b o s s 's b o s s . D exter Sharp was on th e r e , so D exter was my Group L eader and John S tephens was th e n h is b o s s . Q Does th e A g r i c u l t u r a l D iv is io n have la b o r a t o r i e s o f i t s own? MR. LOVE: Voti sp e ak in g in term s o f today? Q (By Mr, Skaggs) Today does th e A g r i c u l t u r a l D iv is io n h sv e l a b o r a t o r i e s o f i t s own? A W ell, i t has la b o ra to rie s th a t a re a d m in istra te d by a C e n tral R esearch D epartm ent, as do a l l th e Monsanto la b o ra to rie s in S t, L ouis. Q Hes t h a t been th e o r g a n iz a tio n a l s tr u c tu r e sin c e you have been w ith the company? A W ell, no. Q What was i t p rio r-$ o th e. p re s e n t organizational structure? * - * .VX.SAA' P rio r to th is o rg an izatio n al stru c tu re JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE % i 1 th e r e was no A g r i c u ltu r a l Res e a rc h D iv is io n o r i t i 2 was form ed, I guess in I960 a rc \?e lied some borrow ed 3 la b bpace from the o ld O rganic R esearch ln b s a t Second 4 S tr e e t in the Queeny p la n t. 5 (Whereupon a s h o rt re c e s s was ta k e n , 6 a f t e r which the follow ing proceedings were 7 had:) 8 s (">' h:. Skaggs) B efore we to o k 9 th e s h o r t r e c e s s w h tt I was g e t t i n g a t is i s th e re 10 a n o th e r la b o r a to r y t h a t th e Ag D iv is io n m ight have t h a t 11 would a n a ly z e p ro c e ss sam ples from th e m a n u fa c tu rin g 12 p la n ts ? 13 MR. LOVE: V e 're sp e ak in g nov o f 1965? ^4 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) W ell, l e t 15 s t a r t 15 in I960. 10 A O.K. In 1960 was th e r e a n o th e r 17 la b o r a to r y where K ltr o l% nt sam ples m ight be a n a ly z e d ? 18 Q R ig h t. 19 A W ell, 1960 was when th e Ag D iv is io n 20 was form ed. A t t h a t tim e I w ouldn' t th in k -- I th in k 21 th e y 'd be a n a ly z e d e i t h e r a t N itr o o r by th e R esearch 22 f u n c tio n . L a te r on th e r e were o th e r l a b o r a t o r i e s t h a t 23 co u ld have ru n a n a ly s e s . 24 Q What were timelaboratories? 25 A W ell, t h e r e ' s c u r r e n t l y a la b o r a to r y JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 8: > c i 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a t Dayton th a t does environm ental sam pling o f the a n a ly s e s . I t 1." r; "r-r-5crctc f u n c tio n . T h a t's one I had in mind. 0 Are th ere any o th e rs? to mind, A Not t h a t I know o f f n o t t h a t come Q Are th e re any o th e rs in th e p a s t th a t might have analysed process samples from th e m anufacturing plants ? A Not th a tlk n o w o f. 3 So th e o n ly two l a b o r a to r i e s t h a t would have analysed sample? e ith e r as an ongoing b a sis or in the course of your research a c tiv i tie s , sp e c ia l o cc asio n , would have been the A g ric u ltu ra l Research la b o ra to ry in which you worked and the la b o ra to ry in DaytGn, is th a t r ig h t? A N itro , laboratory in N itro. N itro? Q And th e la b o r a to r y a t th e p l a n t in A a t th a t tim e. Dayton w o u ld n |t have been involved Q When would I t have been in v o lv e d ? A some tim e. Q P ro b a b ly n o t u n t i l aro u n d th e o ld *70*8 *v- `...' * * V V v,l^V So i t would have m issed th e 2 ,4 ,5 - T JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 business a l l together? 2 A Yeah. 3 Q Again, th is is going to be an educa 4 t i o n a l q u e s tio n f o r me. I 'd l i k e to d i r e c t your a t t e n 5 tio n to the graphs attached to P la in tif f s ' E x h ib it #351. Ju st looking a t i t I n o tice th a t ev id en tly the Agent 7 Orange id e n tify in g number has been cropped o f f , I 8 suppose, b u t th e re a re f iv e pages o f g rap h s. What a re 9 those? 10 A The f i r s t fo u r r e p r e s e n t th e a n a ly s is 11 o f sam ples ta k e n from a u to c la v e b a tc h e s , I b e l i e v e , and 12 a n a ly z e d f o r f iv e d i f f e r e n t c h e m ic a ls, end th o s e r e s u l t s 13 a r e th en p l o t t e d p e r c e n t o r ppm v e rsu s tim e . 14 q What w ere th e f iv e ch e m ic als t h a t 15 w ere an a ly z e d f o r ? 16 A T ric h lo r o p h e n o l, t r i c h l o r o a n i s o l e , d l li7 m e th o x y d ic h lo ro p h sn o l, I d o n 't r e c a l l e x a c tly what th e 18 name o f t h a t t h i r d on~ i s , i t ' s a diraethoxy im p u rity 19 made in th e tr ic h lo r o p h e n o l p r o c e s s , th ? n th e f o u r th 20 on? is TDD and th e l a s t one is te tra c h lo ro h o n z o n c . 21 Q The t h i r d ch em ical w hich f o r my sake 22 I ' l l c a ll. MEO, is t h a t an im p u rity t h a t ' s a s s o c ia te d to tetrachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin? *OjA./VS*!*. * A Not to my know ledge! .r - >. Q Is th ere any c o rre la tio n between the JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 production of i t and the production of te tra c h lo ro p a ra - 2 dibenzo-dtoxins? 3 A I th in k n o t. Not t h a t I know o f . 4 Q What ab o u t th e f i f t h g ra p h , w hat 5 does i t rep resen t? A The f i f t h one Is th e p l o t t e d a n a ly s e s 7 o f th e 2 ,4 ,5 - T r e ta in e d sam ples t h a t we m entioned.'e a r l i e r , 8 we d is c u s s e d e a r l i e r . Samples t h a t had been r e ta in e d a t 9 N itro and then s e n t to S t , Louis f o r a n a ly s is o f TDD. 10 T his is a g r a p h ic a l r e p r e s e n t a t i o n o f th e TDD r e s u l t s 11 v e rs u s tim e . 12 Q Who p rep ared t h i s c h a r t? 13 A 1 d id . 14 Q And does the r e p ro d u c tio n o f t h a t 15 c h a r t t h a t 's b e fo re you r e p r e s e n t a t r u e , f u l l and 16 a c c u r a te copy o f th e graph t h a t you p re p a re d and a tta c h e d 17 to your memo? 18 A Y es, as f a r a s I know. 19 Q Who p re p a re d th e fo u r p re c e d in g g rap h s? 20 A I d id . 21 Q And do th o s e lik e w is e ap p e a r a s t r u e , 22 f u l l and com plete co p ies o f the graphs th a t you prepared 23 and a tta c h e d to your memo w hich i s E x h ib it 351?. y . 24 A I t ' s n o t v e ry l e g i b l e in p lac.ej^ b u t 25 rA* * they are b a s ic a lly com plete, as fa r as 1 can t e l i . / JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 Q Is my u n d e rs ta n d in g c o r r e c t , th e n , 2 from a review o f th is c h a rt th a t th e h ig h e s t co n c en tra 3 tio n o f d ioxin th a t you found in these re ta in e d samples 4 was 55 p a r ts p er m illio n w hich o c c u rre d In , I guess -- 5 W ell, perhaps you can c la r if y th a t. I can11 read e x a c tly 6 when t h a t peak i s . 7 A I t looks lik e the end of A p ril, Yes, 8 t h a t 's c o rre c t. 1965. 9 Q That graph of the h isto ry of dioxin 10 T -a c id is based s o l e l y upon th o s e r e t a i n e d sam ples? 11 A Y es. 12 Q So i t ' s p o s s ib le t h a t th e r e a r e 13 sam ples w hich c o n ta in d i f f e r e n t v a lu e s o f d io x in th a t 14 you d id n o t c o n s id e r in making t h a t c h a r t? 15 A There a r e d e f i n i t e l y sam ples t h a t 16 ; c o n ta in e d d i f f e r e n t le v e ls o f d io x in c h a t a r e n o t on t h i s i''*-'- c h a rt. 18 Q You have an y id e a what th o se o th e r 19 v a lu e s m ight have been? 20 A No. 21 Q Why d id you d i r e c t t h i s to Mr. Taake 22 a s th e a d d re s s e e ? 23 ``V'T-*'' -i-' ' A Because Mr. Taaka Mas in ;c h a rg e p f the * ``'.v&r.'--.......... * 24 o p e r a tio n a t N itro f o r Ag and he w a'sii^;cdht^act:^ timbre., 25 and i t was in fo rm a tio n t h a t sh o u ld be b f u se to him. ' JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE t' ! 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 ]J6 V 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q When you sa y he was in c h a rg e , I be l i e v e , o f th e o p e r a tio n ,w h a t e x a c tly do you mean, what was he re s p o n s ib le fo r? A W ell, he was the su p e rin te n d e n t o f Ag m a n u fa c tu rin g o p e r a tio n s a t N itr o . We m anufactured se v e ra l products a t N itro , and he had r e s p o n s ib ility f o r n o t a l l o f N itro b u t a l l o f th e Ag p ro d u c ts t h a t were nvinufactured th e re . Q I s e e . So he was r e s p o n s ib le f o r the 2 ,4 ,5 -T , th e re would be a n o th e r com parable person r e s p o n sib le fo r the petroleum p ro d u cts, and th ey would a l l r e p o rt to the S u p erin ten d en t or the P la n t Manager? A Yeah. Q I !d lik e to d i r e c t your a t t e n t i o n now to P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it 352 (Monsanto #8314271, e t a l ) . I a s k you to tak e a mordent to rev iew th e pages o f th a t docum ent. I n o te th a t I 'm handing a copy to Mr, Love fo r h is review. MR. LOVE; Do you want him to go through the e n tir e document? MR. SKAGGS; W ell, th e y a l l b e a r h is sig n a tu re , so he can begin w ith the f i r s t one and I ' l l , o f c o u rse ,..g iv e h in rad eq u ate time to review the page to which I- r s r . Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Do you rec g rrlze th e JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 93 f V 1 V 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 * 16 ; 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 t f i r s t page o f E x h ib it 352? i !' A subject m atter. I re c o g n iz e my h a n d w ritin g and th e Q Is th a t Indeed your sig n atu re th a t appears in the block "Prepared by"? A Yes. Q Does t h a t a p p e a r to be a t r u e , f u l l and a c c u ra te copy of th e document t h a t you o r ig in a lly wrote ? MR. LOVE; You a s k in g him now about a l l pages o f the document? Q (By Mr. Skaggs) W ell, r i g h t now I'm re fe rrin g to w h at's N itro m icrofilm #8314271. A I n o te th e re i s no s ig n a tu r e on th e bottom where i t sa y s, "Read and understood b y ," which Is r a t h e r u n u su al u n le s s i t was c u t o f f in th e re p ro d u c tio n . Q Aside from th a t, does i t appear to be c omple te ? A Yes, i t does. Q When you made t h i s p a r t i c u l a r document in March o f 1965, were you a t th a t time re s e a rc h chem ist o r had you moved in to a s u p e r v is o r y p o s itio n ? / A I was a r e s e a r c h c h e m is t a t t h a t tim e. Q Who was your s u p e r v is o r th en ? MR. LOVE: C o llie B ry a n t. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 9 ! i T1 I 1 h i-o hr. c <:ir l i e r . be- lle v e 2 Dexter Sharp by th a t 3 Q (3y K r , b'k&g^s) Aue would i i havs 4 been Ills p r a c t i c e to review the pag.es t h a t you lrad pro 5 duced in your position as a research chemist? 6 A No, n et r o u t i n e l y , 7 q Is chat a page out o f the notebook o 8 th a t you e s c rib e d e a r l i e r or is I t a d i f f e r e n t document 9 /. This is s page out oi e rese arch 10 notebook, o u t of my r e s e a r c h notebook. 11 Q I ' d l i k e to d i r e c t youra t t e n t i o n to 12 document #8214312, which is the -urn- ocuioent. down, 13 I ' d l i k e you to take a moment to r e le v t h a t document. 14 Hae you had o p p o r t u n i t y to read i t ? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Is t h a t document in your h an d w ritin g ? 17 Y es. 18 q In f a c t , t h a t 's your s ig n a tu r e a t th e 19 top o f th e page in th e b lo ck t h a t re a d s "P rep ared by*'? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And does t h a t ap p ear to be a t r u e , 22 f u l l and a c c u r a te copy o f the o r i g i n a l document t h a t you 23 p re p a re d ? 24 A Yes, i t a p p e a rs s o , 25 Q I 'd lik e you to re a d , i f you would, JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE  iI! 1 th e f i r s t lin o th a t appop.r" o.- ; .jcuir.er/.;. i> 2 the Viaii*: ro v :'; ;=* th a t i r a ;;t . 3 A Beginn i r r w ith ''Gy;' ? 4 <) Y*es > ''-**- 5 A "GIG of 2 , 3 , 7 , 8 te tra c h lo r o d ib e n z o 1 ,4 c io x in on F and H 72 w ith TC d e t e c t o r . 11 7 Q is 2 ,3 ,7 ,B-etrachlorodibenzo-1,4 8 d io x in the- came as 2 ,3 ,7 ,3 - te tr a c h lo r o d ib e n z o - p a r a - d io x in ? 9 10 Q Can you d eterm ine from your review o f 11 th a t document what you were t e s t i n g fo r d io x in ? 12 A I coi; 1 i: '.-.now what i t I t was 13 some m a te r ia l fror: A. J . 3urn =, i t 1-, d e s c rib e d in A. J . 14 B urns1 notebook. I c a n ' t t e l l w hat i t was from thi-: and 15 I don' t remember, 16 Q inhere is the p a r t i c u l a r language you're 17 r e f e r r i n g to th e re ? Is th a t up h ere in the second lin e ? 18 A I t s a y s , ''Samples p rep ared by A.,, J . 19 Burns c o n ta in e d an th r q u in o n e i n t e r n a l s ta n d a r d ," and 20 goes on to d e s c rib e the column, the c o n d itio n s , and i t 21 s a y s , " I n je c te d 100 m ic r o i ite r s ofAG 28435-1 (AJ B ).-) 22 So th e sample came from t h a t s o u rc e . I don' t r e c a l l 23 what thaC was, 24 Q What kind o f sample- would thatw have ' .y -X ... 25 been? Would t h a t have been a s ta n d a rd you were tr y in g JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE S 1 i:o or i: .... , - h a t cly; 2 i :1 7*^c r '.'uo: i *: i r s taiuV.r: > 3 p ro b ab ly c Vr . 1 hc t e r 5--. *. : .v V rv ived fro: !>>., 4 o r i s o lu tio n o f 1 *;. 5 C; A coup Is o i *initis we have touched upon b r i e f l y the uov; sam p les. b h a t was your involvem ent 7 w ith that:. 8 Ay a p e rv it:o r, nay have been Dexin.r 9 Sharp or Six-phene, stv*-' >,* the procedure Chat hs.i j e t ; ; 10 r e c e iv e d f r v w her ar;i g<=.yv; ras e ck1 `_ saaiplG tics L wa.* 11 I c b e l i c , 1 bvii -c e ts r -.h i .rod ib e u co -d i 12 An*. -I: -'.-fj' wo..-!- 13 A I t WVJ. y- u r * r r f . j iA_ 14 Q i>I* t ne y give voc a t y o ti y*r k. 15 a lo n g w ith th a t ana I}'t l e a l tus thor or th o se sa-nples ? 16 A hoi: tliai. ,, .T*i .! '* . 17 Q Did you d is c u s f w ith them the p ro ced u re 18 f o r h a n d lin g th e s e Dow sam ples? 19 Kh. LDVJ; '.jecLiori. Did he d is c u s s 20 w ith whoa? 21 Q 22 Mr. S tephens, 23 24 a g o . 25 A Q (Dy H r, Skaggs*- k i t h H r. Sharp and I d o n 't r e c a ll. I t 1 s been~a long time Do you r e c a l l d is c u s s in g th e se Dow JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 97 w 1 scrap ' r i witd f iv*or-.t,' 2 - -' t." -. *'r ` ' t t-otc tti* s f t ^ r 3 t h c t "he y ;'s c i1?"!*.'' t-*;h f.hc ;:'*>?. ;o a t K itr o , but 4 T don.1t rcc"` 1 any o t h r r . 5 Q i.'hen ver th e re c o n v e rs a tio n s w ith peor- - a t K itro ? 7 I f^-T* i. r e ^ n b e r . 8 ^ ` o ,-:? rec*l; th e c o n te n t o f th o se 9 onvr r.'Tr. t on- * w ith a* ?7itr o ^ 10 /. " u v r gorier? 1 d is c u s s io n of 11 the (-'r. r r ha'* the*--' s c : >7e s , Che procedure , we were 12 tie- s t *sig 1 i: * i we wc- " f '; r.o r '-.it: --i f ' t he m to o ^soroe 13 t e s t r "Pt tr a n s f e r the rretho^ to tho;r. 14 Q T-'i*:' yOv d ice ur * the* toy i c olo cv o 15 hend in r ' ,?,? , -te tra c h Io ro d ih e r.z c * -p r -d io x in w ith 16 * . j t t a k* . ** L - j 1 17 A A gain, I c a n 't r e c a l l th e s p e c if ic 18 c o n v e rs a tio n ? , b u t I'm su re I d id . 19 Q Do you r e c a l l d is c u s s in g the to x ic o lo g y 20 o f TCDD w ith Mr. Sharp o r Mr. S tephens? 21 A T d o n 't renumber any s p e c if ic o c c a sio n s 22 doing th a t, no. 23 Q Did they a d v is e you o f any" s p e c ia l 24 p ro ced u res to fo llo w when you were h a n d lin g th e sale am p les? * r\ 25 A Not t h a t I r e c a l l . JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 98 m V * ,i 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 * 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 i Q treme ly to x ic? : Die th ey a d v is e you th a t i t was ex - i | A I t we le v e le d t^ x ic , and the method docum entation d isc u sse d trb* f a c t t h ^ t i t was p to x ic ` j 1 ms t e r ia 1 . Q when you were h a n d lin g i t in the la b o ra - to r y , d id you use any e x tr a o r d in a r y p ro ced u res when you were handling the sample? A Extremelv c a re fu l not to le t i t con- ta c t us, again. Q Wel1, we rent thro u g h t h s t once b e fo re , so b s s ic a 17.y you d id the sasve t b i n ~? A Yer. Q What d id you do w ith th e se Dow sam ples when th e y came in , what was the p urpose? You s t a r t e d a n a ly z in g them -- A There was one sam nle, one sta n d a rd sm all v ia l, as I r e c a ll, of m ateria!. Q And what were you to do w ith t h i s v ia l? A We were to rep ro d u ce o r r e p e a t the co n d itio n s th a t they gave us fo r the a n a ly sis as n e a rly a s we could w ith th e equipm ent t h a t we had and e s t a b l i s h w h eth er we could in f a c t r e p e a t th e r e s u l t s t h a t Dow d e s c rib e d in th e method and th e n , further,.w e were to lo o k a t o u r sam ples from p ro c e ss m a te r ia l made a t N itro / JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G S E R V IC E 99 # 9- 1 t o d eterm in e w hether the saxe. ,,teC crial was p re s e n t and I 2 t a who t 3 ''.Tr f th e p re c e p t camples you j u s t 4 r e f e r r e d to , a re th o ae th e re r e ta in e d samples you r e I 5 ferred to e a rlie r? 6 A W ell, i t was u n d efin ed a t t h a t p o in t I 7 in tim e. I notice here th a t I have determ ination of 8 d io x in in sodium MAT c-cke, 39-pound sam ple. X remembered 9 t h a t was a sample t h a t vc had g o tte n f o r o th e r s tu d ie s 10 u n r e la te d to d io x in and happened to be the o n ly N itro U sam ple we had on hand i r f t . L o u is . And pc t h a t was 12 th e f i r s t one we an a ly se d an -4 thn ve pot o th e rs we 13 d isc u sse d b e f o r e , th e r e ta in e d sampl^ec and the a u to c la v e 14 sam ples. 15 Q Aside from the in c id e n t th a t occurred 16 h e re on the March 1 5 th , 1965, la b r e p o r t , d id you use 17 an y o th e r sam ples from N itro t h a t you hapnened to have 18 ly in g around to a n a ly z e f o r d io x in ? 19 A Not t h a t I r e c a l l . 20 Q As a m a tte r o f co u rse d id your la bora 21 to r y have sam ples from N itro t h a t ware to be used f o r 22 o th e r p urposes o th e r th an d io x in a n a ly s is ? 23 A Not a s a m a tte r o f c o u rs e ,~ n o . 24 Q Did you o f te n have sam ples a t N itr o 25 t h a t you used f o r o th e r p u rp o ses? / JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE S 100 L Vo. C--, ?+ 1 or'Qf 5i"OX ttl31 | ' you k~ ^ **> Vi."vo tk * r vii*d'' or cipher*.' ^*c i A T his vyr p eo d ly -- T. In ot*h*i.r w ords, a cake o f th e ? ,A ,5-T a r id b efo re i t was n i t r a l l z e d . 0 But i t wa? u n u su al you happened to have t h a t 39 pounds o f Lt s i t t i n g th e re ? A Lih huh (y e s ). i 0 I 'd 1Ike to d i r e c t your a t t e n t i o n now to document *S31A32G in th e same E x h ib it *352, which on my sta c k i*" th e s ix th n rec and T ,d cru you to take a QOraert to r e v c * t h a t document. rlrv*> you had rn o p p o rtu n ity to review i t ? A Nc, not y e t. O.K. Q And,once a g a in , is th a t your handw riting? A Yes, i t is . Q And th a t* s Indeed your s ig n a tu r e in the "Prepared by" block? A Yes, I t is . Q And t h a t 's a t r u e , f u l l and a c c u ra te copy o f th e document you o r ig in a lly prepared? A To th e b e s t o f my know ledge, y e s . Q I would lik e f o r you, i f you would, to read th e f i r s t two se n ten c es o f t h a t form In to th e re c o rd . JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 101 A ''d isc u sse d fcyr-c- C restc-ect arid d io x in pro h le? w ith ^?c?rri T as f pilot.* t ,f ^ o 1 fro^ N lf 'o r-7T6ir;iri?'3 tr e a ta d ment? 0 F i r s t o f a l l , wtipt v*\c the tre a t- 1 iiI ii A That war a tre a tm e n t w ith sodium hypo- ] c h lo rite , as T reca ll. [ II ? I p th a t u n re la te d to -the 2 ,4 ,5 -T p rocess? | A Not. er> .tirelv . I t had been tu o ied ns 8 way o f im c rc v irs the c o lo r o f th e p ro d u c t. :*'p wanted j i i | i to d eterm ine v'h^t^ir>r i t b^ '5 pn\- i r r r* th-r d io x in ! a s we11 . 0 Tid voi! fin d th o t i t had ?.nv influence; on th e d io x in ? A As I r e c a l l , i t ves e i th e r c o m p letely i in e f f e c tiv e or n o t very e f f e c t i v e . X ro n * t remember e x a c tly . Q The d ate o f t h i s document 1? March 3 1 s t, *65, so is th e d io x in problem you d isc u sse d w ith Mr, Rhodes, a s you r e c a l l , th e Dow l e t t e r and pc f o rth ? . A Yes. Q Do you r e c a l l th e d e t a i l s o f t h a t con v e rs a tio n ? A No, I don11 , Q Do you r e c a l l a n y th in g ab o u t i t ? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 102 :tr m \ V 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A i-'. 1 I * i C Rn you rec*r 11 v-heth:>r you and Mr. Rhodi s voy i d ha v ta Iked ab o u t th to vio olo gica 1 ha zs r ds j asso ciated w ith dioxin? MR. LOVE: O b je c tio n to th e q u e s tio n . He s a id he d o esn * t r e c a l l a n y th in g ab o u t the c o n v e rs a tio n . I f you can answ er him , answer h it. A I don11 know. I would have to add t h a t I was aware o f the r e p o r ts o f th e t o x i c i t y o f the m a te ria ls , so I'm c u lts sure I would have d iscu ssed the an in al to x ic ity of th is -rfiterial w ith anyone th a t I discussed dioxin w ith. Q (By M r . Skaggs) And, a g a in , and I a p o lo g iz e , b u t i t ' s been some tim e , why would you have c o n ta c te d Mr. Rhodes about th is ? A Mr. Rhodes was th e p erson d i r e c t l y re s p o n s ib le f o r th e o p e ra tio n o f the N itro P la n t. He - was th e P la n t S u p e rv is o r, so he was one o f my prim ary contacts in m atters of th is type. Q You have h ere n o ta tio n s re g a rd in g , I g u e ss, th i s is th e same 39-pound sam ple? A Yes. "- Q Would you e x p la in what f o llo w - o n t h a t page? What does t h a t n o ta tio n in d ic a te you would have / JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 103 it 1 a d v is e e him re g a rd :.:^ tho sv^-V- t y.v. r,y. ? 2 I, i - t i -j Pey*Viw* t h a t 3 wou?" h r v ' ~ : : >'y r -ic-1 ^ 1,^, ?nyi-Mc-: . 4 n I'm h-r'vinp tro u ' le reacir?* th e I s s t 5 sentence. you treke th a t o u t? I t b e g in s , "P ro d u c t 6 g iv e r to R hodes.'' 7 A ''P ro d u ct given to Rhodes to be 8 a n a ly se d a t i ' l t r o . 1, 9 Q vjhct p ro d u ct were you r e f e r r in g to? 10 Was t h a t the Dow p ro d u ct o r th e cake? 11 / 'T h rt'r the urod*.;::t f r o r tb-: hypo 12 c h l o r i t e t r e a t e r : t do s c rib e d ir* the th re e lin e s 13 s t a r t i n g w ith " ? 0 P .'? 14 Q O.K. So th o se n o te tio n r d e a l, th e n , 15 w ith th e hypo tre a tm e n t problem r a t h e r than th e Dot: 16 d io x in s it u a ti o n ? 17 A Yes. 18 Q A few m inutes ago you s a id t h a t your 19 jo b was to check th o se Dow sam ples to see i f you could 20 rep ro d u ce t h e i r r e s u l t s , Were you a b le to do th a t? 21 A Yes, to our s a t i s f a c t i o n we w ere, 22 Q Were yourr e s u l t s , th e n ,s u b s ta n tia lly 23 th e same a s th e ir s ? 24 A Yes. 25 Q I 'd lik e to d i r e c t youra t t e n t i o n now JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE \ 1 to document -1831A32 s f v u icib yov fin d to he tb f 2 very n e x t -fcny?.. and 7 . ' M.Vo yrf.; ? ; .j# *> tr-ktt r. non^nt 3 to. review i t . 4 A I t *c thre*? os cs? Is t e r . 5 Q Have yon had an o p p o rtu n ity to re a d i t ? 6 A Ye?. 7 Q Once a g ^ in , Is t h a t your s ig n a tu re 8 t h a t ap p e ars in the ^'P repared b ^ ; block? 9 A Yes, i t i s . 10 Q And does t h a t page c o n ta in your hand* 11 w r itin g ? 12 A Ye.c , i t does. 13 Q And doe^ I t aor*w r to be a t r u e , f u l l 14 and a c c u r a te copy o f th e document y*>*; o ren ared on A p ril 15 1s t , 1965? 16 A Yes, i t d o es. 17 Q I t ap p e ars h e re t h a t y o u 're s t i l l 18 d e a lin g w ith t h i s cake sam ple, Is t h a t c o r r e c t? 19 A Y es. 20 Q And i t ap p ears you have two c a te g o r ie s , 21 u n tr e a te d and t r e a t e d . What e x a c tl y do you mean by th a t? 22 A The u n tr e a te d is m a te r ia l a s r e c e iv e d , 23 w hich i s th e sodium T -a cid w hich i s th e n p u t through 24 th e r e s t o f th e p ro c e s s , t h a t i s , i t 1 a c l d l f i e d / / i l \ ** *'*X' ,, 25 tered and d rie d . T h at's the standard process and conducted JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 e t V itrir. Tre*. ted -or- is t': - ; f. = j . v h v h ;N "irst 2 give*- m a* t' * 1 `r*4 lv* t `?` V.-r*'-v .* " thsr. pu: through 3 tbO r o ^ *' ^ ' *(*; * t jt; ' *. *" "3-? f* jw * f. f j* 4 l a t r the ^ t r*" -r **cid. 5 Q Doe<: th p s e r e n e s o f document 831432.? 6 th a t c o n tra sts, I suppose, the untreated and the treated 7 sam p les, cUvsb i t d e s c r ib e sam ples from th e N itr o p ro c e ss? 8 .**; The o rig in s. 1 sample t h a t was used 9 as t h '3 'i n c in each c a s e , and i t v'ct" e sample o b ta in e d 10 iron- .h tr? -. 11 ' W . This fr tV ** ocke, the-;-. You 12 usee tZiT * - * i'osTci, '.'f trr r ^ ^ 13 ^r,s c 14 ? Tht u.ntr?-. t.c'3 s a r r l e r rbovr t h a t th e 15 dir.>;<ri a n a ly s is c?r3C o u t a t 10 p a rt? p e r m illio n , is t h a t 16 c o r r e c t? 17 A T h a t' s c o r r e c t . 18 Q And the tr e a te d sample which had gone 19 through th is hypo tr e a tm e n t, the purpose o f which in p a r t 20 we? to improve the c o lo r , shoved d io x in v alu e a t 16 21 pertf- p er m illio n , is t h a t r ig h t? 22 A W ell, th e purpose h e re was t o d eterm in e 23 w hether dioxin reacted v?ith sodium h y p o c h lo rite . - A t 24 t h i s tim e we a r e n o t concerned ab o u t th e c o lo r an y m ore. 25 We were w orking on d io x in . JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE I! 1 Q W ell, i t *s obvious to me th e value l 2 w ent up, b u t I d o n 't know i f t h a t meens i t re a c te d w ith j ii 3 o r d i d n 't r e a c t w ith i t . What was your c o n c lu sio n on ! 4 the basis of th a t te st? ! i 5 A W ell, my c o n c lu sio n was t h a t d io x in i 6 was n o t d e s c rib e d by the h y p o c h lo r ite , t h a t th e re may j 7 have been an a n a ly ti c a l problem somewhere in th e con- j ! i 8 ductlon o f the a n a ly tic a l method. I t 's . q u i t e p o ssib le j 9 t h a t r a t e r la Is t h a t g iv e a resp o n se a t the same tim e j 10 a s d io x in were formed and c o n tr ib u te d to th e h ig h e r | ii 11 number, to th e 18 p a r ts p er m illio n , and opposed to the j 12 10 in th e u n tr e a te d sam ple. There was no way fo r us 13 to d eterm in e e x a c tly w hether i t was v a r i a b i l i t y In j i j 14 method o r w hether th e r e was a c t u a l l y som ething e ls e 15 p r e s e n t t h a t gave a re sp o n se t h a t would look lik e d io x in . 16 Q So you c o u l d n 't d e f i n i t i v e l y say 17 t h a t t h i s hypo tre a tm e n t threw o f f d io x in , i f you w i l l , 18 o r i f i t d i d n 't ? 19 A No. A t th e tim e a n a l y t i c a l m ethodology 20 was n o t a t th e h ig h e s t s t a t e o f developm ent t h a t we would 21 be a b le to be e n t i r e l y su re o f th e s p e c i f i c i t y o f th e 22 m ethod, w h eth er i t ' s a n a ly z in g d io x in and n o th in g e l s e 23 b u t d io x in . T hat m ethodology was n o t advanced enough 24 a t t h a t s ta g e to be a b le to make t h a t k in d o f d e te rm in a tio n . 25 Q But you w ere lo o k in g f o r 2 ,3 ,7 t 8- JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE rw V 11 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 tetra ch lo ro d ib e n z o-pa ra-d io x in ? 1 : A Thafij th e one we were looking f o r . Q I 'd lik e to d ire c t your a tte n tio n ; to 8314327. Take a moment and look a t t h a t . A Yes. t i \i Q And is t h i s document in your handw riting?] i A Yes, i t is . \ box? H And you sig n ed i t in th e "P rep ared by" A Yes. Hr* And i t ' s a t r u e , f u ll and a c c u ra te copy o f th e document th a t you w ro te , is i t n o t? A I t would appear so . j 1 ! i 1 t ii i i j Q I n o tic e here you have "A nal," which I assume is fo r, "A nalysis o f c h l o r a c n e g e n is th a t what th a t reads? A T hat's c o rre c t. q So in 1965 you were aw are o f th e chloracnegenic products of tetrachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin? A Yes. Q f o r s in g le CHC;i. A I t says h ere, "3/16/65 to G albraith - CL. Q CHCL. Who i s G a lb ta ith ? A G a lb ra ith was an a n a l y t i c a l la b o ra to ry f JA M E S MAY R E P O R T IN G SER V IC E > 108 # *51 2 for? 1 3 A V e il, we s e n t the low sample to < k ilb raith | i 4 to d eterm ine the. elem ent or com pound,the chlorohydroven c h lo r in e , J 5 and we compared th o se to what th e t h e o r e t i c a l q u a n t itie s | i should be. i ij 7 8 information"; T hat van a f u r th e r check on th e Dow j i 9 A Yes. Again, th a t's a rig o ro u s iden- j 10 tific a tio n , but another step. | U Q Did you p e rs o n a lly send th a t sample ! 12 to G albraith? !! 1 13 A I d o n 't re c a ll. ' i i U Q Would you r e c a l l w hether G a lb ra ith j 1 5 was a d v ise d o f the c h lo ra c n e g e n ic p r o p e r tie s o f TCDD? 16 A Again, I'm n o t e n tir e ly c e rta in , but 17 I would c e r ta in ly ex p ect th a t they would have been. 18 Q I 'd lik e to d ire c t your a tte n tio n to 19 N itro m icrofilm #8314542. 2 0 A O.K. 21 q ' Would you p le a s e review t h a t document. 2 2 A O.K. 23 Q And, once a g a in , is th is a"document 24 in your handw riting? 25 A Yes, i t i s . i. A JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE V f* 109 1 Q hi\r' iu itK&c ycxr s ig n a tu r e in the 2 . "P rep ared by" box? 3 / Yfcf f i t ir-. 4 Q And is i t a t r u e , f u l l and a c c u r a te 5 copy o f the document th a t you prepared? A I t appears* to b e. 7 Q (:. the- low er le fth a n d c o rn e r o f t h a t 8 block o f fig u res i t appears to read, r e s u lts , or an 9 a b b re v ia tio n f o r th e word r e s u l t s , 400 p a rts per m il 10 lio n TDD. Is t h a t a c c u ra te ? 11 A No. I t ' s r e s id u e . 12 Q What is th e s ig n if ic a n c e o fthaC? 13 A This is an ex p erim en t t h a t d e s c rib e s 14 some o f the work t h a t we d isc u sse d e a r l i e r which is in 15 th e h a n d w ritte n r e p o r t . 16 Q Hie h a n d w ritte n r e p o r ty o u 're r e f e r r i n g 17 to i s document #344? 18 A Yes. X b e lie v e t h a t 8343312 is some 19 d a ta th a t* s p a r t o f th e h a n d w ritte n r e p o r t. 20 Q And i t says r e s id u e , 400 p a r ts p er 21 m illio n TDD, what does t h a t mean, what i s th e re s id u e ? 22 A T h a t's th e m a te r ia l l e f t a f t e r d i s 23 t i l l a t i o n o f th e tr ic h lo ro p h e n o l. So you f i r s t a c id ify 24 the sodLum tr ic h lo r o p h e n a te and t h a t p tr o its one to d i s t i l l 25 the phenol, and the m a te r ia l t h a t was l e f t behind a fte r JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 110 li 1 t h a t d i s t i l l a t i o n ve: e;v. ' . 7 f o r T D , and :h a tfs c a lle d ! i 2 ?. r e s id u e . j 3 j 'h i t happens: c : t. id u e ; ! 4 A I d o n 't re c a ll. i 1 1 5 Q J u s t o u t o f c u r i o s i t y , how d id you 6 a l l handle laboratory waste? 7 A hard on: 8 y In your la b o ra to ry what d id you. do 9 w ith the waste? 10 A There w as, a s I r e c a l l , th e re was a j j 1 1 j 11 to x ic l a n d f i l l a t the tins.* where to x ic w astes were s e n t, j 12 Q Vbe-re w?2 t h a t ? 13 /: I d o n 't knot'. 1 \ 1 \i 14 0 Was i t h e re in S t. L o u is, M isso u ri? 15 A I don* t know. If. you had m ateria Is 16 t h a t were t o x i c , th ey sh o u ld be' packaged and p u t in a 17 lo c a tio n w here th e y were p ick ed up and tak en to a to x ic 18 l a n d f i l l . 19 Q And th o se w astes from your d io x in ex 20 p e rim a n ts, you c o n sid e re d t h a t to x ic ? 21 A Yes. Alm ost an y ch em ical t h a t we 22 worked w ith we c o n sid e re d to x ic u n le s s proved otherwise. 23 Q Speed i t up a l i t t l e b i t , what I'd 24 l i k e to do now Is to ta k e document 352 and review each 25 page and confirm that you d id indeed author each document JANIES MAY REPORTING SERVICE \ 111  1 t h a t c o m p ris e t h a t :.y.h-ri*\l*, 2 /. Ve*. 3 t A*c\ . /-.**<* (-'rs.'.y t-c *? o.r Kr-rhlbj" 35r 4 conta in p your he t.dwr i t in g ? 5 / T hat's correct*. 6 0 And your s ig n a tu r e ? 7 A The i:' c o rre c t . 8 C And e^ch ant. e v e ry page i s a t r u e v 9 f u l l snd a c c u ra te ropy o f the. documents th a t you prepared? 10 /. A ppears to be, 11 MT. ir.vn* Thr~ :tfi w ith fch-As one-? 12 rKAn-TS; >< . 13 0 -'3;r V r . r.icpggs' 7*(' lik e to hnv.l 14 you now w h a t's been narked ExM M r ?5: (Monparu;-. ;?:i<i585, 15 e t e l ) , which ip a n o th e r s e r i e s o f la b o ra to ry r e p o r ts 16 w ith th e le tte r h e a d Monsanto Chetiic*/ Company, I 'd lik e 17 you to ta k e a m inute anc! review th e f i r s t page o f those 18 e x h i b its and n o te t h a t I'm te n d e rin g a copy to Mr, Love. 19 A O.K. 20 Q Nov?, do you re c o g n iz e th a t document? 21 A No, I d o n 't re c o g n iz e i t , a lth o u g h , 22 I re c o g n iz e th e a u th o r , s u b je c t m a tte r . 23 Q And who was th e a u th o r? 24 A A, j . B um s, 25 Q And a r e you f a m il ia r w ith h is h an d w ritin g JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE \ 1 2 Anc* you r e c l i n e th a t a s h is s ig n a tu re ? 3 'oi 4 r< A nr v.'sre 3*01* b is s u p e rv is o r? 5 A Yes. W ell, l e t me ta k e t h a t back* 6 Yes*, 1 th in k th a t he was r e p o r tin g to me on an in te rim 7 basis. I n o t a su p e rv is o r a t th e t ime, b u t he was 8 a s sig n e d to a?i dor ths- cu r& tia.\ o f t h i s p r o je c t. 9 I t t i e course o f him re p o rtin g to 10 you on a t in te rim fo i th is p r o je c t, did you be n come f a m il ia r w ith r.-i.s h a n d w ritin g and h is n o ta tio n s ^ 12 13 Q And doeo t h i s f i r s t document ap p ear 14 to b<: h is h a n d w ritin g , h is n o t a t i o n 7 15 A I t ap p e ars s o . 16 Q You m entioned t h a t he was r e p o r tin g 17 to you on an in te rim b a s is in th e co u rse o f a p r o je c t. 18 What was t h a t p r o je c t? 19 A W ell, t h a t was a long tim e a g e . I 20 d o n 't r e c a l l e x a c tly in weeks w ith how many th in g s we 21 worked to g e th e r . C e rta in ly he d id some o f th e e a r l y 22 a n a l y s i s o f 2 , 4 t 5-T sam ples. 23 Q W ell, i t sounds a s i f you had a s p e c i f i c 24 p r o je c t in mind. Was th e r e a p r o j e c t you worked w ith 25 him on reg ard in g 2 ,4 ,5 -T a n a ly s is ? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 ,, I, I* ' 1 , x2. I r 11, h 2 d id th e a n a ly s e s Cor a a n th e r sfc_idy fctu i- ! c i i :/n race cion 3 tim es o f p rep arin g .?,4 , 5 -?\ 4 0 An--? ve hove g o tte n s e v e r a l s tu d ie s 5 in to th e reco rd h e r e . Is th i s a stu d y we have d isc u sse d 6 already? 7 in - . * 8 Villat was th e n a tu re o f t h i s studv? 9 / I t was a stu d y o f th e r e a c tio n c o n d i 10 tio n s end r e a c tio n v a r ia b le s t h a t were im p o rta n t in th e 11 manufac t u r e , to g e t the :,a&t econ o-'iica I p ro cess for 2 , 4 , 5 -T . 12 0 When ves t h i s p a r t i c u l a r stu d y ? 13 A l b e lie v e , t h a t wef in '64* 14 0 And what p a r t i c u l a r v a r ia b le s were you 15 in te r e s te d in in d ia t p a r t i c u l a r stu d y ? 16 A R eactio n tim e , a d d itio n tim e, r e a c ta n t 17 v a r i a b l e s , te m p e ra tu re , pK, w ator c o n c e n tr a tio n . 18 Q Did you c o n c e n tra te -- 19 ME. LOVE: Excuse me. Have yu 20 f in is h e d your answ er? 21 A Yes. 22 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Did youc o n c e n tra te 23 on any p a r t i c u l a r v a r ia b le ? ~ 24 A No. . -- ' * ' * .'-v t * r ^ t ^ # * 25 Q In 1964 when you were d o in g th i s s tu d y , JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE were you In te re ste d In o r : looking fo r to x ic o lo g ic a l p ro b l^ n r wit?* ? / c...rPrt A No. Q In 1964 when you perform ed th is s tu d y , were you a w a re o f the ex I f te n e e o f t e t r a le v e l d i o x i n s ? A I nay have heard o f them by th en . Probably had. 0 But were t e t r a le v e l d io x in s to you o f in te re s t in performing th a t study? A Vo. Q As t~. th e o th e r s t u d i e s , did you r e view th e lite ra tu re o f ? ,h ,5 -T in the *;rjrse of an aly zin g the 2,4,5-T process? A Yes. Process l i t e r a t u r e , r ig h t. Q lie re you having c o lo r problems w ith th e 2 ,4 ,5 -T in 1964? A Yes. L et me q u a lif y t h a t , X don' t r e c a l l e x a c tly . I th in k c o lo r was a c o n s ta n t problem t h a t we had w h ile we were m an u factu rin g 2 ,4 ,5 -T . I t was n o t som ething t h a t was alw ays under stu d y . Q But in th e 2 ,4 ,5 -T process Monsanto experienced a continuing problem w ith co lo r? A Yeah. Customer co m p lain ts, I understand That was th e main cause o f custom er c o m p la in ts, Q Was t h i s c o lo r problem e v e r re so lv e d ? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 A I d o n 't think so, not e n tire ly . 2 I tb irk ? o f "Ho -7 ^ 1 .f-j.j h 1 v~~ '3 ? o a r t i a 1 1 y r e 3 so lv e ^ ?o#4 ----ri">K*iki -(C* f ~r; o r t 7" to n- ^iistocuer 4 th an c o l o r , r?T *"0 5 0 nid i t ever irorove? 6 /. S o lid s c o n te n t improved. 7 0 tfhat I'm g e ttin g a t is t h i s , i t 8 seen? to me th e se document? Ju3 t t a l k ab o u t c o lo r prob 9 lem s. c o lo r nroblem s, c o lo r problem ?. I u n d ersta n d now 10 you d i d r 1 t re s o lv e i t . Did i t ev e r even g e t b e t t e r ? 11 1 Yeoh. 12 o 'jher"' <4j '1 4f* _t/*** >^"74r*nr Krtt*tar? 13 A T don *t. re? 11 io ow. 14 <7 Ho' Ion/- d id Bur^s work under your 15 d i r e c t i o n on t h i s 1964 s t u ^ " 0 16 A I don' t r e c a l l . P ro b ab ly th e b e t t e r 17 p a r t o f th e y e a r, s ix months to a y e a r. 18 0 Do you r e c a l l i f Mr. Burns e v e r had 19 r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r a n e l ^ i n g sam rles f o r d io x in ? 20 A I believe he did, yeah. 21 Q Do you r e c a l l when he had th a t resp o n 22 s i b i l i t y ? 23 A No. in f a c t , I 'm n o t even s u re ab o u t 24 t h a t . I was J u s t lo o k in g a t th e d a ta . I don' t know . .t* 25 w hether he analyzed dioxin or n o t. I th in k he d id. JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 Q Hov was- I t decided w hether you 2 analysed dioxin or not 3 MR : Vcr an 4 a n a ly sis fo r dioxin. or an a n a ly sis o f 5 d i ox in ? 6 MR. SKASi?S: F o r. 7 Xr* which p a r t i c u l a r sam ples? I f th e 8 th ru -rt c f th e rro g rar: " a s to fin d o u t hov? much d io x in 9 was th e re ., th e - the d e c is io n was made, t h a t war: th e 10 t h r u s t o f the pro pro r-.. I d o n 't e n t i r e I t u n d erstan d 11 th e q u e s tio n . T yuesr.. 12 o yFv Mr, S its r z t' ?.jr* c*'-? h e re 13 a t some p o in t S ir r a n r 1yred d io x in -**.nd a t noma p o in t 14 you an a ly ze d f o r d io x in , a t some p o in t? Mr. 3urns 15 an a ly ze d f o r d io x in . Hot* was i t d e rid e d who d id what? 16 A Oh, X b e lie v e th e sequence th e r e , 17 a n d , a g a in , I could be a l i t t l e o f f on t h i s because t h i s 18 is in th e dim d i s t a n t p a s t, b u t when we f i r s t g o t th e 19 sample, and th e method, T worked on i t raynelf. I 20 w anted to see hov? i t worked and I was r e s p o n s ib le . I 21 b e lie v e t h a t s h o r t l y a f t e r t h a t Mr. Burns an aly zed 22 f o r sam ples and X b e lie v e t h a t he tr a n s f e r r e d to a n o th e r 23 o r g a n iz a tio n in Monsanto a t some p o in t in *65~or bo and 24 Mr. Sims then took h is p la c e . 25 Q I 'd lik e to get back for ju s t a second JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE v 1 to your a n a ly s is , c. v IJ you r e p o r t your fin d in g s to 2 t" t ' r) ? ' V v - V o f r - . r ' O i - i j n * ">r j - v q f* 9 3 * *v m* tr 4 r And tdv*** S te p h e n s 9 5 * T t h in '- ; S h arp . 6 Q x.)iA you rab e t h a t r e p o r t in w ritin g ? 7 i 'V^T'*t re c s I I , 8 '7 TTo11d you have made i t in w r itin g ? 9 f i P t 1? s e e , I ' n tr y in g to remember i f 10 we nr?'1*' wee1'\ y r e p o r t" t* t h r t tim e, 7 c e r t a i n l y would 11 J+* In e 1 t* ''"PpOtt ^ \e E , 12 ^ 17 -iV** f*v.Tr trhe TO'^t*L'l y r o o r t s , 13 When Tr,p,` ttp. tbo^- o r o*er w hst p e rio d o f tim e t 1 4 haw tthv y" * rp 15 A T h a t's *one th in ? t h a t 's been going 16 on a~ long a" T nan remember s in c e th e Ag D iv is io n was 17 formed and even p r io r to t h a t In th e O rganic D iv is io n , 18 1 thinl: e s s e n tia lly every chem ist prepares a monthly 19 su iw v y , 20 Q And have you s e e ' in any o f th e 21 documents t h a t X have given you th u s f a r th e form o f 22 th e m onthly summery? 2 3 A No. . 2 4 Q Was a m onthly summary d i f f e r e n t from a 25 progress report? *> i. * JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE |! w V , l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Yes. 1 report? Q And was i t d i f f e r e n t from a f lr ia l A Yes. Q And you have been w orking w ith M onsanto, I th in k you s a id , sin c e 1940 - - A - -'8 .' Q Since th a t time to the p resen t date has i t been a co rp o rate p o lic y of Monsanto th a t th ese monthly re p o rts were prepared? A don* t b e l i e v e , No, i t ' s n o t a c o rp o ra te p o lic y , I 0 ' w e ll, have you observed i t to be the p ra c tic e th a t th ese monthly re p o rts were prepared? A Yes. Monthly r e p o r t, you must under- stan d , is a working - - not a working document - - a s ta tu s document. I t does not re p o rt the re s u lts of f in is h e d p r o j e c t s , c o n c lu s io n s , wrapped up p ackages. I t ' s what you have done. I t ' s a way f o r your boss to see th a t you have been w orking d u rin g th a t month. "What did you do d urin g the month? I d id t h i s , th is and t h i s , " You d o n 't n e c e s s a r ily p u t c o n c lu sio n s and f i n a l r e s u l t s in i t . Q What ab o u t th e WM&ly r e p o r ts ^ w h a t* s the purpose o f th a t document? . / JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE \ .*, ` 119 1 A ' th in k we can p ro b ab ly d isp e n se w ith 2 th a t becauss I d o n 't b^IIev*! vr had weekly re p o rts back 3 in the 'dO 's. 4 0 Or the '5 0 's or the 'AO's? 5 A No. Q but you had them in th e '7 0 's ? 7 *ir. -he '& G 's, y e s. 8 < When. did th ey b e g in , ap p ro x im ately ? 9 A Oh, I d o n 't know. I 'd sa}^ in th e 10 earl}/ '7 0 's . A gain, I t depends upon what le v e l one i s . 11 Even now n o t everyone w rite s a weekly r e p o r t, b u t I must. 12 Q What le v e l is t h a t , the h ig h e r up? 13 A The h ig h e r you get th e le s s r e p o r ts 14 you have to w r ite . 15 Q And I h a v e n 'tshown youa n y th in g t h a t 16 resem b les a weekly r e p o r t , have I? 17 A No. 18 Q I 'd lik e to r e tu r n fo r a second ag a in 19 to your la b o ra to ry re c o rd s th a t you have i d e n t i f i e d as 20 E x h ib it 352, and I ' l l re tu r n th en to you i f you'd lik e 21 to review t h a t document. What I want to know is who 22 would have seen th e se la b r e p o r ts a s id e , o f c o u rs e , from 23 y o u r s e lf ? 24 A W ell, th e o n ly p erso n who wouldhave - .* . - . iV;X.~ ... 25 n e c e s s a r ily seen ttase is th e p erso n who sig n s th e b lo ck JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 down In the lower rig h th a n d , and . I n o tic e th e re i s n ' t 2 any s ig n a tu r e on nany o f th e s e . 3 Q Was i t your p r a c tic e to have your 4 su p erv iso r review these documents? 5 A Yes. 6 Q would you c h a r a c te r iz e t h i s , th e n , 7 a s a p e rso n a l workooofc, i f you w ill? 8 A es. 9 Q hoes Monsanto have any w ritte n p o lic ie s 10 or p ro ced u res re g a rd in g th e s e la b o ra to ry books? 11 A Yes. 12 0 And do th o se p ro ced u res p ro v id e fo r 13 what happen? to th e n when y o u 're f in is h e d w ith them? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And what happens tothem? l A They a re m icrofilm ed and r e ta in e d , I 17 th in k , i n d e f i n i t e l y . 18 Q How long do you keep one o f th e s e n o te 19 books in your p e rs o n a l p o sse ssio n ? 20 A VJe' l , th in k t h e r e 's a l s o a p o lic y 21 w ith reg ard to t h a t . The l i b r a r y ta k e s c a re o f the 22 m ic ro film in g and th e y c a l l you and s a y , w e'd l ik e to 23 have notebook such and such number. T h a t1s u s u a l l y 24 when th e notebook is a couple o f y e a rs o ld , a s I . r e c a l l . 25 S ee, many people w i l l tak e many months to f i l l a notebook. JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 'proff?t K # i. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 U 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 25 CM O thers m ight t:c fv. ' f ' 'T!'4.t -yi'biir rf-o :>.!L*d :lo you keep in Che i m r i ? of your vor!( ir the re s e a rc h la b o ra to ry ? before? You. seen be s lo e s the one we m entioned h i e i , s i r . Aside from the lab o rato ry notebooks t l a t you ;-a^e been r e f e r r i n g to h ere on s e v e r a l occasions. 7:ir. la b o ra to ry notebook, the p ro g re ss r e p o r ts , the f hv ~ r e p o r ts , process rep o rn y . Those are the d ocumr n "s r\ h a re r e ta in e d , a? f a r as .1 know. 0 Ir-. th e re ki.%c: o f a e r 5nton from the gcr chrarra togrepk? A Ye-. Q And v'h,? f; happens to th a t p r in to u t" A F req u en tly i t ' s probably thrown away. Often i t ' s stored w ith the notebook I f i t 's considered to be w orthy o f r e t e n t i o n , I g u ess. Q T hat would depend on the in d iv id u a l operators? A Yea n . Q I 'd lik e to r e f e r you to document #8314285 in E x h ib it 353, which Is th e Burns documents. A Yes. Q Have you had an o p p o rtu n ity to read i t ? JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE v / 122 1 2 TI-'- 7in - o" th 7 v.hicl: ap p ears to 3 be a>*or.h(?r in a s e r e s o f l a 5" rfp o rt t re a d s , ,!2 ,4 ,5 -T , 4 C hloiacne S*:udjet , Tl I f th a t c o r r e c t? 5 Vp c * c s i ttf-t wer* th -'se c h lo ra c n e s tu d ie s ? 7 Ts tli?. ann'ht-.;* >fu 'y i o i t one o f th e s e v e r a l th a t 8 we have Ze I '*ed abo.;: 7 9 H*i :;. y:.y 3.1'rc ly s i s of Tl'I-, d io x in , 10 r- i iv i: :l f in r e f e r e n c e , to the 11 b e s t o f your knot-;.'.1 , to it.c o f ongoing stu d y 12 o r r^porn*' 13 i 1 dfir-1 1. v>r.1 7y unde r pt.ano die q u e s tio n , 14 but i t ' s P'.-iply r e p o r tin g th e analyser* of d i f f e r e n t 15 sam ples f o r d io x in . 16 Q > 1 1 , v h a t I 'm a s k in g is i t says a t 17 the to p , ''C hloracne S tu d ie s ," and I ' m a sk in g do you 18 know i f t h a t 's r e la te d to a p a r t i c u l a r group o f s t u d i e s , 19 end i f s o , w hat, so on? 20 A V e il, 1 c o n 't k.nov; how e l s e to answ er 21 i t . This is sim ply r e p o r tin g a n a ly tle a 1 r e s u l t s on 22 f d io x in . I th in k what he meant by chloracne is a n a ly s is 23 o f the ch lo ra cn e genic m a te r ia l 2 ,3 ,7 ,8 te tra c h lo r o d lb e n z o - 24 para -d io x in . 25 Q In th e c o u rse o f your work w ith th e JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 a i ci Ir Vor*, to ry did y ou a i l c-Gncit 2 :u le s re g a rd in g o5.o:-:ii;7 3 2; Ko. Tri ou* T- t?rrf ^ lab. ? 4 l'e2 c*ip 5 A No. We d id n o t e v e r have a to x ic o lo g y 6 lab. 7 < Why would t h i s la b r e p o r t say c h lo ra c n e 8 studies \ 9 >H. LOVZ; I 'm going to o b je c t. TO I t *l been askec s e v e r a l t i a s s in s e v e r a l 11 d i f f e r e n t wayc w ith re g a rd to =* document 12 t h a t has n o t been i d e n t i f i e d as having 13 been prepared by the w itn e s s . I t see.es 14 to we h e ' s answered your q u e stio n each 15 tim e, b u t I would a s k him i f one more 16 tim e he can answer your q u e s tio n , p le a se 17 do so . 18 A I b e lie v e th a t the re a so n i t says 19 c h lo ra c n e s tu d ie s is a means o f d e s c r ib in g the sis ly s i s 20 o f th e d io x in m a te r ia ls t h a t was b e lie v e d to be c h lo r - 21 a c n e g e n ic . 22 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Was t h i s a t th e 23 p e rio d o f tim e when Mr. Burns was w orking under your "i -, * 24 d ire c tio n ? ,i . > ,, ,A \4 ' * 25 A Yes. I mean, a g a in , I b eliev e so. JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 1 like; to v:^fr,r to W|Ca sm a ll p a r t 2 I g u ess, t h a t e p p u r e i t tV n:V::V . the psg^, ha ~ 3 sacQfiTj- iv.ijjb^rs. There is p.n a tib rr-v is io n ch o re, CjAC, 4 VJhat*s th a t sta n d -fo r'7 5 A As I r e c a ll* th a t was A rtie Burns* abbreviation for dioxin. 7 2 1 :c3vr,: I* in going to o b je c t to 8 the form of the quea tio n because yo u 're 9 &sk in g th is w itn e ss to s p e c u la te upon 10 an a b b r e v ia tio n usee" by a n o th e r person 11 in a doc ament which he har; in d ic a to r ho 12 knows no th in g a b o u t, 13 A I knee a t one tirw3-^ b u t X d o n 't r e c a l l 14 what now t h a t was. 15 Q (?y Mr. Skaggs) ra th e r th a t being 16 a term o f a r t or sta n d a rd a b b re v ia tio n * i t was Mr. Burns* 17 sh o rth an d ? 18 A T h a t's r i g h t . -Of c o u rse , any TCDD is 19 som ebody's a b b r e v ia tio n fo r som ething. 20 Q Whs t is th a t ? 21 A I d o n 't r e c a l l what t h a t i s . 22 Q CLAC is one you d o n 't r e c a l l the 23 a b b r e v ia tio n fo r? 24 A Yes. 25 Q What Is th e one on th e l e f t ? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 1 / r>th ra ~}\ix`10 "e. Ih c 11f* a che mica 1 tha t 2 was used ? p. a ?E:*i i-.'-fird to -<uv : l y t ' amount o f d io x in . 3 Cp~ you go on '.:**.*. 1*? more ab o u t t h a t . 4 T h a t's a nev word f o r . What d id i t r e p r e s e n t? 5 A A standard is a term which gives a re sp o n se on th e a n a l y t i c a l method t h a t y o u 're u s in g , 7 so a t some p o in t in tim e when y o u 're ru n n in g a chrom ato 8 gram? a n th ra q u in o n e p re s e n ts a peak and one can u s e , i f 9 one knows e x a c tly how much an th ra q u in o n e is th e re and 10 vrhaf: i t s r e l a t i v e resp o n se is to o th e r m a t e r i a l s , th en one U can. use th a t in resp o n se to c:; leu la te how much of the 12 o th e r m a te r ia l i s p r e s e n t. 13 ''as t h a t a sta n d a rd p r a c tic e or was i t 14 an a lte r n a tiv ? : rae?ns o f a n a ly s is o r what e x a c tly ? Did 15 you alw ays use thi; a n th ra q u in o n e o r were th e re o th e r 16 methods? 17 A There were o th e r methods s tu d ie d . 18 Q Were some methods more p r e f e r r a b le 19 th a n o th e rs ? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And how does a n th ra q u in o n e f a l l in to 22 t h a t spectrum ? 23 A I d o n 't r e c a l l . :.vr 24 Q Do you happen to c c a l i i f "itt'.ti*- 25 * freq u en tly used or occasionally used? ' " a * : JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 7 > ---------- c------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 * 14 15 V '16 - ` V'Ci7 . 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MT. J-?.7,': 5p h asin g now o f a r.th ra - quinone" yj-T'- -*"`O' .-* ^ I d o n 't know. I t was in v e s tig a te d . W hether i t was ad opted and used r o u t i n e l y , I d o n 't r e c a l l . Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Do you happen to know where the samp lei.- he r e f e r r e d to th e re came from? A Again, i t looks lik e we have the 39- pound sample t h a t we r e f e r r e d to e a r l i e r . Q Would a l l of th e sam ples in v o lv ed in th i s ru n have *. o;ae fro x th i^ on-' sam ple? A No . J us t the- l a . c o n e . i Q Do you happ?*'; to kno-,; where tho o th e rs came from? A I can o n ly guess based on. th e i d e n t i f i - c a tio n . One says 1961 T. 1 would guess t h a t was a sample o f 2 ,4 ,5 -T t h a t was made in 1961. The o th e r two, I w o u ld n 't even hazard a guess. Q This cake t h a t 's rep resen ted in the fin a l group, then, is analyzed as having 17.4 p arts per m illion of dioxin, right? A R ight. V Q This 1961 T t h a t you r e f e r r e d to , th a t would be the sample which had 5 .4 p a.TVr"t s ' p e r'm illio n , ^ ..I' ViV'. do you happen to know i f th a t came from N icro ? J A M E S M A Y R E P O R T I N G SERVICE v r* , ` ' 127 1 I A I would have* to assume i t d id . T 2 don' 1 knrrt^ where p.U p -ft* non Id h^ire coma from . 3 O Why would you sa v you have to assume? 4 A T h a t's th e o n ly p la c e we made 2 ,4 j5 -T . 5 O Is th is one of th e samples th a t you 6 used in making your 1965 r e p o r t which we had e a r l i e r 7 Id e n tifie d as P la in tif f s ' E x h ib it 5 1 ? I ' l l be happy 8 to fu rn lrh a cony to you, 9 MF., tovE; The f i r s t o a r t o f your 10 q u e s tio n Is - - I d o n 't know which sample 11 y o u 're tg lk io y a b o u t. 12 Q (By Mr. c kaggs>Do you u n d erstan d the 13 q u e s tio n ? 14 A I th in k v o u 're r e f e r r i n g to the 15 sample on 8314285. 16 O R ig h t. 17 A The answ er i s T d o n 't know. 18 Q The 1961 T, you d o n 't know i f t h a t 19 was one o f the o ld sam ples you had a t N itro t h a t you 20 used in making th a t '65 re p o rt? 21 A No, I d o n 't know. 22 Q Would you know what p ro cedure Mr, Burns 23 used in 1965 to lo c a te t h i s 1961 T sam ple? " 24 A No, I d o n 't . 25 Q I f you were to want to find samples JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE % 1 o f p ro d u ct n&de some year's a g o , how would you do I t now? 2 A The tame way wc did i t th e n . Go to 3 th e p la n t, ask them i f thev re ta in e d any sam ples. Quite 4 l i k e l y t h a t ' s bow t h i s one was d isc o v e re d . 5 Q So what you'r e t e s t i f y i n g now i s what Mr. Burns pro b ab ly did is c a l l up N itro and a s k i f 7 they had any samples to send him? 8 A E ith e r th a t or is one o f the group of 9 samples t h a t we re q u e s te d . 10 Q On th e rig h th a n d s id e o f th e page 11 alm o st d i r e c t l y under th e d a te 4 /9 /6 5 and down ab o u t 12 f iv e rows on th e graph p a p e r, can you make o u t t h a t 13 n o ta tio n ? 14 A I t says " re c h e c k " ? 15 Q No, s i r . Above t h a t . 16 A " 2 ,4 ,5 - 7 from"? 17 Q R ig h t. 18 A T h a t's where I th o u g h t i t s a i d , "2 19 from 39-pound sodium T" som ething. I c a n * t re a d th e 20 l a s t p a r t. 21 Q I 'd lik e to r e f e r now to document 22 #8314547, which i s ab o u t th r e e - q u a r t e r s o f th e way 23 th ro u g h P l a i n t i f f s * E x h ib it 353, l & a ^ c o n t i ^ ^ 24 the lab re p o rts from Mr. B urns. yciu a 25 -;t , . if\ - ';* r' . , moment when you lo c a te i t to r e a d i t . JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 i* \ g .S' 17 * 4tfc 18 19 20 21 22 23 A O.K. [ . Q ,r>rr? a g a in , T se e hero i t s a y s , "C h lo r- acne S tu d ie s .M TVero a r e a couple o f number;: on t h i s document. MR. LOVE*. X d o n 't see where y o u 're talking about. Q (By Mr, Skaggs) ,Im r e f e r r i n g to the second lin e down from the d a rk d iv id in g l i n e , MR. LOVE: A ll r i g h t . Q (3y Mr. Skaggs) There a re a couple o f numbers on h e re I want to a sk you a b o u t, ^ i r s t of a l l , in th e upper rig h th a n d c o rn er th e re a r e two w ords, "AG: 32727." W hat's t h a t number r e p r e s e n t 0 A AG 32727? Q Yes. A T h a t's the notebook page number. Q To th e r i g h t o f Mr. B um s' s ig n a tu re in the "Prepared by" block th e re is an o th er number, w hich i s 2102. What does t h a t number r e f e r to ? A T h a t's th e jo b number we d isc u sse d e a r l i e r . I t was th e jo b number used f o r 2 ,4 ,5 -T p ro cess s tu d ie s . Q I*d lik e you to r*ad, i f you would, th e f i r s t lin e underneath the dartefdiyidlng"ilx^if\on th is . - * * V i , * * - * v * * * * JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE  ' Batch 'R'j*nher `535, 7 /2 1 /6 5 frnc h i tr o 2 SO<?^V)r'' rKIftrpnrip 3 ^ A~,r wsrt? tVi i r. f' *-b> 'c c * nf tibi?5 4 A gain, when Mr. Bum? was ptM^l vo'-kin^ under your 5 tem porary d ir e c tio n on tb l? stu d y ; A I be!ieve so . 7 Q r b^ t was b a tc h number 636? What was 8 your system th - 't you un*d in y e t t i n g th e s e sam ples? 9 a t h i s , I b e l ie v e , w?. a sam ple, 10 one o f th e K it.ro m an u factu rin g h rto h ^vniher* and sam ples, 11 i t save Tjvvi obtain'**-' n **f.rn , 12 v ` Tr- th/.T* t r 1*- riv-nUt'*' 6 !6 Cf?"IL' 1C 13 d i f f e r e n t fro th e retain4 mpl^- ~ H v t w= ta lk e d about, 1 4 a w h ile af*o'? 15 A Ye. 16 J- Q Would tb s t pa'jiol" Have been taken on 1 7 the d a te th a t* in d ic a te d th e r e , J*'!y 2 1 s t, 1965? 18 A Yep. 1 9 Q Were you r e s p o n s ib le f o r c o o r d in a tin g 20 w ith N itro over the tak in g o f th ese samples? 21 A Ye?. In the g e rse t h a t I was A r tie 22 Burns' s u p e rv is o r. I imagine he d id t h i s , 2 3 Q How many sam ples d id you tik e ? L e t 2 4 me go a b o u t i t t h i s way s in c e we have been over a l o t 2 5 o f t h i s m a te r ia l. I ' l l summarize to you what my JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE Q 1 u n d e rsta n d in g I s . T.' ;*t;r s L v . - o r y o u c e l l me i t ' s 2 vfrc*;>i7. ?* f-Vs' "'"'i /. a one o f t*Me 3 O?" 1^ *; 1x>-< f*h*** \tO * >** ,* f"0 t-j/t pf,^ ^^>v 4 flC p** {VStriOri ^Qii *fr*i r','vn"i'i? Oi* Ctli.fi 5 r f"i o*' 6 / V*r* 7 Irv in g reed th is document and thought 8 v% v -;' h,v/ any rsc r>'*1?ctri.or* o f th e meaning 9 f\& ^ii> t~ t*--. riji ', '1 10 A ' -V''1 , *>- fp j 7 bQ; j a? though I'm 11 r Of -*; *f` .tvvJP -*i .1 ' -- I* o`*c f- ? rP ^0>*e; 12 0 | I* i 7 * P f**|1 t - 'r o nf*i 1 'ir ' "jc? * N-.--1- -'< - t -- *-< ,, ' i. r j v ' * 1 13 C\ TJpca'1 r>^> tf-1>' P'."o" -fnn^p in ttl& 14 ljg|p >*n *n fit n ' ^I'ocq ^ti.'^ ie ^ pnd rev iew in g 15 t * h d o c u m e n t s ann ?iv en th e c o n te y t o f th e f ig u re s 16 th s t on t h i 1-' a r e v >-j to s ta te whether 17 the ^ AC i c ftr i?hhr^yi.^ t io ^ fo r ri'',,r>rj9 18 \ . 1'"iYr * T' m to o b je ct to 19 the form o f th* 'i j e ? t i c *. You' re a s h in g 20 th e man to g iv " rou ?." ? o iTv'or? r. to w hat 21 a n o th e r men m eett by h i" otm sh o rth a n d , 22 an ab b rev iated term fo r som ething th a t 23 ap p e ars on a document t h a t a n o th e r p erso n 24 a u th o re d . For t h a t re a s o n I o b je c t to 25 the q u e s tio n . I f you can answer i t , JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 131 tM . % '1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 answer i t . , A 7 knew r - t or>& tim e, and 1 be- lie ^ e i t doe?? r e f e r to the d io x in h o t I'm a l i t t l e confused because in s e v e r a l r e f e r e n c e s th e re were two s e ts o f numbers and one o f them seemed to say ClAC and the o th e r s a id ppm. I d o n 't know e x a c tly what ths t meant. I 'd have to stu d y them in more d e t a i l to h av i i t n IT back. Q (By Mr. Skaggs) They have f ig u re s here from , I supnose, they re p re s e n t samples from A through C, is t h a t c o r r e c t , t h a t th o se a r e in d iv id u a l sam ples? MB. I'"'YE: A s e ir , I o b je c t to the form o f the q u estio n . Y ou're asking the man to answ er a f t e r lo o k in g a t a document he did not prepare and no fo u n d atio n 's been la id whether h e 's ever discussed w ith the man who p rep ared i t o r a n y th in g e l s e . I f you can answer i t , do so . A I b eliev e these a re in d iv id u a l samples taken a t d iffe re n t times during the batch. Q (By Mr. Skaggs) So when I t says b a tc h 4number 636, we a r e n 't ta lk in g a b o u t one b atch ? We a r e ta lk in g ab o u t s e v e r a l? .;>.?& /y A A p p a re n tly . .,..f"'**mii7>;;,v*y>r;*?1-.Tv.\- ./f"^^, Q How would you determine when those / JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE > >' ' 132 1 p a r t i e ul a r samp le *C+ \t#ou id b 2 ;r"_. r ".T** *rrt*(_1* e re :--a c tiv e i.y 3 who"1 t.... <***r*` ^Wv:: ^ * * ^*.V'.',Vis :,*' * c* laechod- 4 - V 2 ?nC" 1f* '' 4. ^ r ^ fw-9, Your 5 rtuc T.t on* - u iv l o c r tn rse. I f i t ' s c l e a r 6 to Vou , you can m o v e r i t . 7i A ? u lc e ra to od you to a s k me how woul_ 8 de when to /. te m p le "-' 9 -* (By Mr. n*JV^a 3CT-'/ ? .ig h t. YoU CQCJjC 10 samples a t d i f f e r e n t e in e r ir. the bn her.: rule who, 11 fo r cha t m atter der K*;\ - y. Acs w ere ta k e n : 12 A TA. #1Tr:`' " *h'j dee id e e . Vtve 13 i n t e n t , I b e lie v e , as tc T jf *"' . 1 A * A houc the 14 b a tc h which eou m he A.-x;- -- w* f- ^ **" *?hat vas happening 15 a t each s ta r o o the ba teh 16 9 ti--ud y su s e n i N it re w r i tte n d ir e c tio n s 17 to fo llo w when ts kin i~ ehe v a r cu ratr- >cs ? 18 A I don11 ra c a i 2. 19 Q Do ' you r e c a 11 wr e th e r you ?iove them 20 ora 1 in s t r u c tio n s on when to take the s c sa mp13S ? 21 A TL d o n 't SOCi f ic a 11y reca 11 , but I'm 22 su re we must have d isc u sse d i t . 23 Q . Would i t make a s i g n i f i c a n t d if f e r e n c e 24 when th ey were taken? 25 A W ithin lim its i t would n o t. / JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 133 I * 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ?' r ' > . l5:irs 1 t o per v is o r o r eupe r v i t or fot **r f. r,1' n " J- * ' i f ' >j/ ,l VOU KrVt' ^ - 'or ` <-r' f r v*'*-(ti- "r * **-' f> / Vjr - 3 In the course of review ing h is work would th? t invc;Ivs review ing h is la b o ra to ry notebook? A .c-, n o t n e c e s s a r ily . Cou? c i t ? * Vo. 7 would h* give you w r itte n r e p o r ts ? ver . 7 lio-.- f 1/ ' r-o u V h e c o m u n c e te w ith you in writ** **? 'hr t vr ? hi* u ltm a te r*ori. p ro d u ct t h a t you WOU1^ A V is wo.r^ p ro d u ct woul.d have been p ro b ab ly a r r o g r e s s r e - o r t tha*- n ig h t have been j o i n t l y w r itte n w ith me. Q Aside fro c th a t progress re p o rt, and we have seen an example o f t h a t , would he g iv e you anything else in w riting? ** A At th a t tim e I d o n 't th in k so . We had d isc u ssio n s on a d a ily b a s is . Q I'd lik e to d ire c t your a tte n tio n to document #8314546, and although the p a tte rn h a s n 't a 1- ways fo llo w ed , i t should be the n e x t page in your s ta c k . JAMES MAYREPORTINGSERVICE . > . .. ` 134 1 2 3 pi >'!' . - - ........... " rr.- ..hat, 4 A V5 o Arr. 6 fiver Ibed or. 7 j* \r.iX8 t*;" ; - C.'.-. 9 A:. ' 10 1A >( 11 1 / " c ' ;\r, 'h*Z' ro.iry r.o 12 r *v 13 l**nt : ty O'* 14 r- - 1^ d - * : ::ec idm ~. ,\lif rfe 15 *ett in TMt"C: \ 16 c. "r-r'.r- co s ~;ple c h a t's 17 on t h a t !-0 18 Tha 19 to ''sam ple11 a t th e to?V ' 20 A R ig h t. 21 0 The f a c t t h a t I t says, h e re the jo b 22 number on the p receding page, which was 8314547, a s 23 2102, t h a t I n d ic a te s t h a t b o th o f th e s e d e a i t w ith th e 24 same ongoing p ie ce o f work, i s t h a t r ig h t? 25 A They d e a l w ith 2 ,4 ,5 -T in some r e s p e c ts , JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 vep. 2 '".'il -* rtV*d *g? N-1 rS'J^t r>v-t 3 f o r :'annV 3?724-A, 4 A t%V7 T'd b^ve to presume I t ' s TGDD 5 been use i t d o e s n 't s ta te so anywhere on h e re , X b e lie v e . } I t 's the sa^e job number. 7 A 'l l '7 Is p job number t h a t 's used fo r 8 o i l o r.)' >is3 rc n -inrch h av in g to do w ith 2 , 4 , 5 -T , w hether 9 i t ' s dior.in .n Ti.rot-^cQ ptudy o r w hatever i t 13, c o lo r 10 and n ] udc?in*, you 1' ton-. 71 e nneerp thj* t th e se wouId n re for to the* t'ov? frame th ey w rs done 12 and nnr> re s 11p % T t r n >^ i - n . r t th-onr* a re d 1ov i n . 13 n And what (?re tb o ^ r f ig u r e s ? 14 ' 71vro a r e th r e e on tb e nage, 15 o f them i r 7 2 pn^i( one is 32 opm rn d th e o th e r is 37. ppm. 16 7*r<. ' 0VIT. : You he ve any s ubs ta n t ive 17 ^ u o stio n ^ ab o u t tb s answ er to th e l a s t 18 Q uestion ? 19 MR. Si'A^GS; what T'rr doing, 20 h is testipony is th a t th e sample should be 21 id e n t i f i e d on th e hooV nage 32724, and I'm 22 now rev iew in g nv documents to see i f I can 23 lo c a te t h a t page w hich would le ad - me to my 24 followup q u estio n . - 25 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Would you p le a se r e f e r JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE * w 1 to dociraont page- . 2 t 3 ' An: 77 ' nr '?Ttr.r 7::..nr froa- tv* 4 ps.g,r> th e i d e n t i t y o f f*i* sam zle?? 5 A There e re sons id e n tific a tio n s a t 6 th e top o f the page vyhich a p p a re n tly d e s c r ib e th e s e 7 sam ples. They ? re in th e form HE and th e n a nunber, 8 Q I*o you re c o g n iz e t h a t numbering? 9 A I'm not e n tire ly p o s itiv e , but 1 b eliev e 10 t h a t 's a TH tre numbering system . 11 0 Are vo-.i f a n i l ; ^ r r i t h i t enough tu 12 a d v is e us o f th r. r inn i f ic o '- th e numbers* enc l e t t e r s 13 th a t make un th o se id e n tif y in g num bersr' 14 A Ko, T'm n o t. 15 Q I n o tic e h e re a ls o t h a t th e a p p a re n t 16 term t h a t ClAC sta n d s f o r i s ch lo rr.cn e compound. 17 A Yeah, CLAC. A gain, t h a t 's f u r th e r 18 ev id en ce t h a t i t ' s TCDB. 19 Q I 'd lik e you to ta k e a moment, i f 20 you would, and review these, docum ents, looking a s we 21 have in th e p a s t, re c o g n iz in g w h eth er you re c o g n iz e Mr. 22 B um s' sig n a tu re and h is handwriting on each o f those pages? 23 A To th e b e s t o f my: to o w le d g p , th e s e a r e 24 a l l signed by A rtie Burns, 25 Q And you re c o g n iz e h i s h a n d w ritin g on JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 137 1 each and every document th a t tum prrta6 f la m tr im ' 2 Exhibit 3r: . 3 ZF. Ti* V l tr U I * , j Zi' bO , 4 T1-.' Ii>.c to hand you w h a t'e been 5 marked as F ^ s in tif f i.1 E x h ib it 254 (Monsanto #004800. 6 t h r Durfn !' 004 247), which is a Monsanto Company A g ri 7 c u l t u r a l .. i '-isro n r e p o r t b e a rin g your name a s c o - a u th o r. 8 I not:- the t I'm te n d erin g a copy to Mr. Love a ls o . 9 1*11 ask yon to take a moment to review t h a t document. 10 v d.K.. Have von had an o p p o rtu n ity to 11 r e v ia v; P l a i n t i f f - ' dx n ih il. 3541 12 4 y es. 13 0 And were yoi: in f a c t the a u th o r or 14 th a t document? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And does t h i s ap p e a r to be a tr u e , 17 f u l l and com plete copy o f th e document which you a u th o re d 18 which is t i t l e d A g r ic u ltu r a l Research. R eport iio. 15C, 19 F in a l R eport on 2 ,4 ,5 - tr ic h lo r o p h e n o I , O p tim iz a tio n o f 20 th e H y d ro ly sis o f 1 ,2 ,4 ,5 -te tra c h lo ro b e n z e n e ? 21 A I t ap p ears so . 22 Q I 'd li k e to d i r e c t y o u r a t t e n t i o n to 23 th e in tr o d u c tio n to t h i s r e p o r t w hich a p p e a rs on page 1. 24 I 'd lik e you to begin a t the in tro d u c tio n 'a n d read th a t 25 Introduction in to the record, please. JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE . 138 1 1 MR. LOVE; A ll f o u r . parag rap h s o f i t ? 2 MR. SKAGGS: O ff th e re c o rd . 3 (Whereupon d is c u s s io n was had o f f 4 the reco rd .) 5 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) I ' d lik e to mark 6 from f,An to " B" and a s k you to re a d t h a t in to th e r e c o r d , 7 please. 8 A (V- t'-i. :o / . h i b i t , ) 9 Q I 'd lik e to r e f e r you to the second 10 p arag rap h where i t m entions Dr. O e tte l a t B adische. 11 Who was he? 12 A I don' t know. 13 Q W ell, do you r e c a l l th e source o f 14 your se n ten c e t h a t he e x p re sse d th e o p in io n t h a t t e t r a 15 c h lo ro d ib e n z o -d io x in was th e c h lo ra c n e g e n ic m a te ria l? 16 A I don' t r e c a l l where I g o t t h a t i n 17 fo rm a tio n . 18 Q Do you r e c a l l th e e v e n t which Dr. 19 O e tte l was d e s c rib in g ? V"- 20 MR. LOVE; O b jec t to th e form o f th e 2T q u e s tio n . T h ere' s no e v e n t m entioned in 22 t h a t s e n te n c e . * 23 A I don' t know what e v e n t you mean. 24 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) What i s your u n d e r- ** ' r y \ 25 s ta n d in g o f what D r., th e b a s is o f D r. O e t t e l ' s o p in io n ? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE s 1 A The b a s is o f h is o p in io n , i f I knew 2 a t one tim e I d o n 't know any more. He presum ably did 3 some t e s t work w ith te tr a c h lo r o d ib e n s o -p a ra -d io x in 4 and e s ta b lis h e d t h a t i t was a c h lo ra cn eg e n ic m a te ria l, 5 b u t I d o n 't know th e d e t a i l s o f t h a t , 6 Q Are you fa m ilia r w ith Radische? 7 A Yes. A larg e m u lti-n a tio n a l chem ical 8 company h ead q u artered in Germany. 9 Q A side from t h a t you have no o th e r 10 r e c o l l e c t i o n o f Dr. O e tte l? 11 A No. 12 Q Now, would you d e s c r ib e f o r roe, p le a s e , 13 th e program t h a t 's d e s c rib e d in th e l a s t two se n te n c e s 14 o f t h a t p arag rap h which was m o n ito rin g v a rio u s p ro cess 15 stream s a t th e N itro P la n t. l A You want me to e x p la in what th o se 17 s e n te n c e s mean? 18 Q Y es, s i r . 19 A They mean a t t h i s tim ewe had th e 20 a n a l y t i c a l method f o r TCDD and we began to d eterm in e 21 where in th e p ro cess TDD m ight be p r e s e n t and where 22 i t m ight be formed and to m o n ito r th e p ro d u c t 2 ,4 ,5 -T 23 f o r TCDD. 24 Q How o f te n d id th e y , t e s t th e v a rio u s 25 p ro c e ss stream s a t th e N itr o P la n t? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 A v .c ll, wc wa.it through t h i s , o f c o u rse . 2 The ones t h a t I was d i r e c t l y in v o lv ed w ith a r e the ones 3 th a c ws have a lre a d y d is c u s s e d and ap p eared in one 4 o f the e a r lie r e x h ib its. 5 Q Whan you w rote t h i s s e n te n c e , d id you have in mind o th e r t e s t i n g programs th an th o se t h a t you 7 described to us e a rlie r ? 8 A 'ie s . I had in mind th e c o n tin u in g 9 program tha:: was to be done a t N itr o . 10 Q And would you d e s c r ib e t h a t c o n tin u in g 11 program , p le a s e . 12 A I can n o t b ecause I'm n o t aware o f 13 e x a c tly w hat th e sam pling freq u en cy was, 14 q What was your b a s is o f th e s ta te m e n t 15 t h a t th e a n a ly z a tio n c o n tin u ed to th e d a te o f th i s 16 p a p e r, which was in 1969V 17 A T hat was my u n d e rs ta n d in g , t h a t th e 18 N itr o P la n t would c o n tin u e to a n a ly z e . I d o n 't know 19 i f i t was on an e v e ry -b a tc h b a s is o r p e rio d b a s is f o r 20 d io x in . 21 Q What was th e so u rce o f t h a t u n d er 22 sta n d in g ? 23 A I don't recall. ~ 24 q What about the next paragraphwhtre 25 you say in 1967 our Medical Department stated the JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 ch lo ra cn eg e n in the 2 ,4 ,5 -T p ro c e ss was indeed TDD, 2 who in th e M edical D epartm ent s a id th a t? 3 A I b e lie v e t h a t was C a rl Bowles t h a t 4 w ro te me a memo to t h a t e f f e c t . 5 Q Do you r e c a l l th e ap p ro x im ate time o f t h a t memo? 7 A 1967. 8 Q Do you r e c a l l th e B ubstance o f t h a t 9 memo? 10 A No f u r t h e r th an i t * s s t a t e d h e re . 11 Q You s a id t h a t t h a t o p in io n le d d i r e c t l y 12 to th e p r e s e n t work in v e s tig a tin g th e ch lo racn eg en in 13 p ro d u cts o f te tra c h lo ro b e n z e n e ? 14 A Y es. 15 Q Did i t d i r e c t you to do th a t? 16 A No. 17 Q How d id t h a t o p in io n le a d d i r e c t l y 18 to t h a t in v e s tig a tio n ? 19 A I th in k we d is c u s s e d some e a r l i e r 20 e x h i b its t h a t I f e l t th e re was a good chance t h a t such 21 a stu d y co u ld le a d to low er le v e ls o f TDD, and when th e 22 M edical D epartm ent s t a t e d t h a t th e y w ere convinced t h a t 23 V *V"*M ' th e ch lo racn eg en was TDD, i t seemed a l o g i c a l *ta p to 24 se e w hat we c o u ld do a b o u t it : ' rj sV *'/rpy'y 25 Q Did you work w ith th e M edical Departm ent JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE in your study A 1 rt w h ic h s tu d y ; Q Vic11, in year: stu d y th a t c o n s titu te d th e p r e s e n t *?arfc thr r. you d e s c rib e d in t h is 1969 document. A T^ l l , th e M edical D epartm ent d i d n 't have any input in to the d e ta ils o f the research program, i f th a t's what you're asking. Q Did you a d v ise C a rl Bowles o f the s ta tu s o f your study? A Die I a d v ise him o f th e r e s u lts o f th is s tudy? Q 'id you an v is e him o f th e p ro g re ss o f i t ? A Mot on any r o u tin e b a s i s . I may have d is c u s s e d i t w ith Kin from tirae Co tim e. Q itfiy was i t th a t he w rote h is o p in io n l e t t e r to you? A I think th a t's probably fa c tu a l. Probably because he and I had discussed the su b ject before. q And would you d e s c r ib e th o se c o n v e rsa tio n s , p le a s e , such a s when d id you d isc u ss i t . A I d o n 't re c a ll. Q Do you r e c a l l how o f te n yeud is c u s s e d i t ? A No. I t was a vary small number o f tin e s , lik e , two or three. ^ Q Did you c o n ta c t him? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 IXJVtC: -.ith r <2 zero to w h at, when? 2 IS?.. ZYAOGz: I'm r e f e r r i n g to the 3 co n v ersatio n -, th ru he j nc\: t e s t i f i e d a b o u t, 4 Q (Sy Mr. Skagg3) Did Dr. Bowles con 5 t a c t you o r d id you c o n ta c t Dr. Bowles f i r s t ? 6 A I don1t r e c a l l . 7 (} were you a b le to m eet your o b je c tiv e 8 to determ ine the im portant process v ariab le th a t in 9 flu en c ed th e fo rm a tio n o f TDD? 10 A Yes. I th in k we were f a i r l y s u c c e s s f u l. 11 We w e r e n 't a b le to e lim in a te TDD, b u t we were a b le to 12 d e s c r ib e c o n d itio n s which would lead to a c o n s is te n t 13 low, what was f e l t to be a low le v e l a t th a t tim e. 14 -Q In f a c t , t h a t c o n d itio n was th e h o ld 15 p e r io d , w a s n 't i t ? 16 A No. 17 Q What were they? 18 A W ell, th e most im p o rta n t v a r ia b le 19 tu rn e d o u t to be th e r a t i o o f m ethanol to th e o th e r 20 r e a c t a n t s . 21 Q Did you e v e r is s u e an amended p ro c e ss 22 document t h a t in c o rp o ra te d your fin d in g s from t h i s stu d y ? 23 A P ro cess document? 24 ^ 4 ;Y-- Q The cookbook. 25 A You mean th e p la n t m an u factu rin g p ro c e ss? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 144 1 'b ` igh v . 2 A f.o, ?e*earch d id n o t w rite th o s e . 3 0 To yo o r cC-owlcd^ f wcrs your r^comsonda- 4 tion.~ from th:*p stu d y e v e r in co rp o ra ted in to the cen u ala 5 th a t governed the production of these chem icals in the 6 plant 7 a W eil, th in k th is is the su b ject 8 m a tte r we covered e a r l i e r a b o u t were th e se c o n d itio n s 9 incorporate.*' in to rfu. s ta n d a rd p la n t o p e r a tio n , 'Hu 10 answ er was no, they were n o t, Ih ey were o n ly done 11 d u rin g a t o s t p e rio d . 12 0 ' ' t >r e t*V(' env i r onment? : ha r a r e s 13 t h a t were a s s o c ia te d iM'tv wer'-'ing w ith th e 2 ,4 ,5 - 7 14 d ep artm en t? 15 M7. IPVE : O b jec t as to the f o r r . 16 T h ere' s been no fo u n d a tio n la id a s to ths17 e x p e r tis e o f t h i s w itn e s s , knowledge o r 18 background in terras o f your d is c u s s io n 19 o f en v iro n m e n tal h az ard s in th e w orkplace 20 i n th e m an u factu rin g p ro cess o f 2 ,4 ,5 -T , 21 I f you can answ er th e q u e s tio n , answer i t , 22 A To my know ledge, th e en v iro n m e n tal 23 h azard was th e in cid en ce o f chloracna* ~ 24 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) To your knowledge, 25 in 1969 was th e r e any o th e r h az ard in v o lv e d w ith w orking JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE II 1 w ith 2 ,4 ,5 - " o th e r rUi chlojv-.ene* 2 .A I . 3 C' f i r r e f e r s i.:g to page .? her*:, In 4 th e i*efersnrei; y>v d e s c rib e . memo and the i n i t i a l s a re 5 \vRV/BF7, What doe? th a t mean; I t* s re fe re n c e number 1 6 unesrr s e c tio n 5 on page 2. 7 Mi . Lev'S; O ff th e r e c o r d . 8 (whereupon d is c u s s io n was had o f f 9 the reco rd . ; 10 ^ { l y Jit. Ih ag g s) I ' c lik e to r e f e r n you to page 2 unde;: tha re fe re n c e s , and would you road 12 re f e r e n c e number 1t - '**- 13 A "I-Ssu p, 'T iU /K rt, Septem ber 14, 1S65.1' 14 _/- \Tno i t V^U? 15 9\ M yself, l rA And who i s LIT? 17 n E<5 Taake. 18 Q And Mr. Xaake is your c o n ta c t a t N itr o , 19 is t h a t c o r r e c t? 20 A Thp t* s c o r r e c t . 21 Q Lo you have any r e c o l l e c t i o n o f t h a t 22 memorandum d ated Septem ber 14, 1965? 23 A I b e lie v e t h a t 's one o f th e e a r l i e r 24 e x h i b its t h a t we d is c u s s e d . - . .* 25 Q I'm going, to hand you w h a t's been JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 marked P l a i n t i f f s f E x h ib it. #3f 1 and s s k i f t h a t i t the 2 memo you r e f e r r a d to ir; th a t re fe re n c e ? 3 Yes. 4 Would you p le a s e re a d the second*' 5 r e f e r e n c e under s e c tio n 5 on page 2, A "Memo, WRU/VLR, J u ly 3 , 1968." 7 And, once a g a in , WRU ia you? 8 Yes. 9 S ' Who i s VLR.? 10 A Vern Rhodes. 11 Q And do you r e c a l l t h a t p iece o f 12 co rresp o n d e nee ? 13 A Ko, I do n o t. 14 Q Have I shown you t h a t p ie ce o f 15 co rresp o n d en ce in th e e a r l i e r e x h ib its ? 16 A Not to my knowledge. 17 Q Was t h a t a b o u t th e same tim e you 18 were h av in g th e c o n v e rs a tio n s w ith Mr. Rhodes re g a rd in g 19 th e d io x in problem a t th e Monsanto P la n t a t N itro ? 20 A Yes.* 21 Q Would you read re fe re n c e number 3 , 22 p le a s e , under s e c tio n 5 on page 2. 23 A Re fe re n c e 3 i s , "jShein, ,:S , M.Y end 24 E v e tif e a v , A .V ," .1' * m-__ . -. . .. ,*,'{V * ., . *J" * :v -- v. --7J; '-: j' 25 Q I t ' s o b v io u s ly R u s sia n . *' ' ' JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 j$.l V1 2 1Invest: i \ a . ' I rea-- it. co m yself. s MO you gel: uhs - c. or b lo v .^ n to 's 3 reference library" 4 A I d o n 't re c a ll. 5 Q Do you ro se :\*assiant 6 A No, I d o n 't. 7 ^ Under number 4, would you p le a se 8 read those referen ces. 9 A 'hsotebook p ag es, AG 72101, AG S5501." 10 Q You can read them f* y o u r s e lf ju st: 11 so you know what I'm going to be a sk in g you a b o u t. 12 A 1 1vs reac thum. 13 Q A re those t he. la b o ra to ry n o te boo Lis 14 we have been d is c u s s in g e a r l i e r , ic- t h a t what t h a t nas 15 r e f e r e n c e to ? 16 MR.. L-lYb: i f you know th e an sw er, 17 you can an sw er. We have looked a t a g r e a t 18 many pages o f docum ents. Whether th o s e . 19 s p e c if ic pages a r e ones we have looked a t 20 o r n o t, t h a t would be d i f f i c u l t to a s c e r t a i n . 21 MR. SKAGGS; 1 u n d ersta n d t h a t , but 22 I'm a s k in g him I f t h a t 's s ta n d a rd n o ta tio n 23 f o r th e la b o r a to r y notebook we d is c u s s e d 24 e a r l i e r , 25 MR. LOVE; T hat was n o t your q u e s tio n . JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE I* \ 148 I I 'fora not&brsok.'. ! r' .0*1 .. la b o ra to r y r) y?r. SK.3fi.gE; D? you r e c a l l th o se notebook page* th s t you c i te th ere as referen ces? A Ko. s Could you t e l l ufi what k in d o f m a te r ia l frorL a notebook you m ight be c i t i n g in p re p a rin g th i s Yes. The re s e a rc h r e s u l t s , experim en ta l ,s w e ll ar a n a ly tic s ? r e la te d to th is p r o je c t, ; I 1*" li'- 't you to r e a d , i f you would, f ig u r e ? or psge C, You don' t have- to read i t in to the record, but fa r* .lip rira yourself with i t so I can a sk you some q u e s tio n s ab o u t i t . A 'j.K. Q Did th a t fig u re 2 summarize your fin dings here regarding the c o rre la tio n between hold h o u r t and th e p ro d u ctio n o f TCDD o r TDD? A I'm s o r r y p b u t I have to read more to know e x a c tly w hat th e se r e p r e s e n t, Q W ell, read w hatever you need to , A C.K. F ig u re 2 compares two d i f f e r e n t la b o ra to ry r u n s , ru n 19 and run 32, ' Run 19 w erfl^condi- >' * tio n s s im ila r to th o se c u r r e n tly used a t N itro and ru n 32 / JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 149 1 re p re s e n te d . T.V r O C O r X ' K : : 3 ; ! i f,Z 2 cor.ditionr , 3 ^ ^ - i f yo -ouLd, to ?ol\ 4 our 3. `..hr* t ^ the- .'i f f e r enee he*' :' hour 5 3 between the conditiovsr used on run 19 in th e la b o ra to ry and in the co n d itio n s used in Monsanto a t N itro ? 7 I'tie d if f e r e n c e s w ere t h a t under th e 8 Hi t r c s itju 1a tfc- c o n i tio n s we hs d a bou t- 576 TCA and 9 under the re s e a rc h can :.iti.o n s we had n e a rly 0 TCA a f t e r 10 th r e e h o u rs. Linder I 'i t r o conditio:::* --re had about* ?3 por 11 of Tfi. , and under the r e s e a rc h eonritir-n* vo had s n o 12 where arouvK 5 to 7 pp=-,. 13 Q Her.-;, vb*:t v ? r p e r c e n t a g e - TV 14 re p re s e n te d ? 15 A T h a t1!; the p e rc e n t o f t r i c h l o r o a n i s o l e , 16 which is an in te rm e d ia te in t i e hyo ro ly s is o f t e t r a - 17 c h lo ro b e n z e n e . 18 Q Anc i t ' s the lower c u rv e , is th a t 19 r i g h t , o r i t ends up low er? 20 A T h a t's the one t h a t 's d e c re a s in g , y es. 21 Q Look a t th e f ig u r e s on ta b le 3. What 22 do th o se r e p r e s e n t? 23 A Those a r e a r e p r e s e n t a t i o n 'o f th e , 24 w e ll, th e V s a r e the dependent variables that were 25 m easured and th e X' s a r e th e in d ep en d en t v a r ia b le s , in JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE ~ ~- -- ~II1!ii j 1 o th e r words, the things th a t were co n tro lle d in the ' 2 I s b- r ' "' T h i ? 1r rio:-* o f th e e f f e c t o f ! j 3 tho in d ep en d en t v a r i^ h jo r on th e thine:? ve were ! 4 fpe^vrir*". T T \ fo r in n tn n re , as w^l? as the effect" 5 o f the serverr of those v aria b les and the e ffe c t of i n t e r e c t i n - betw een the v a r i a b l e s . The XI, X2 cross 7 product tornt^ 2re measures o f the sy n e rg istic e ffe c t of f 8 two vr r Lt M e r . 9 nr t b i r T ^ sru re n ^ n t, th e n , how do 10 you read the tab ?e? i f e t la th e s ig n if ic a n c e o f th e 11 11 f a c t t h a t c o n s ta n t in VI i r 3.537? and in Y2 is 1.6641? 12 T<7h a t does th*t mean? !11 13 P Wr??, th o se a r e ^ im rlv thn c o e f f i c i e n t s 14 and ^ c u c fio n p , and i f one wanted * w rite o u t th e e n t i r e 15 e q u a tio n to g e t a y ie ld , one would gay 3.5371 plu s 16 .5314? Y2 p lu r .062191 nekes 2 , c in u s ,57546 makes 3 17 end ro on, r e p r e s e n ts th e y ie ld o f Y3. I d o n 't remember 18 how I defined Yl. 19 Q This s y n e r g is tic e f f e c t that you talked 20 about, is that the relation sh ip between TCA and TDD? 21 A No. 22 Q What did you mean by that? 23 A I meant the in terrela tio n .hetsteen 24 variables 1 and 2, lik e , XI and X2 and, ag a in ,; < io n 't 25 r e c a ll what XI i s . I f I t was temperature and addition JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 tim e , i t would be a -- Lti o th e r w ords, th e i n te r a c ti o n 2 in the f in a l equation between tem perature and ad d itio n 3 tim e. 4 MR. SKAGGS: O ff the re c o rd . 5 (Whereupon d is c u s s io n was had o f f the reco rd .) 7 Q (By Mr. Skaggs) vWould you p le a s e 8 re a d th e m a te r ia l between "A" on page 7 and 11B" on page 8 9 to the jury. 10 A C o f?.r to E x h ib it .) 11 Q A g ain , h e r e , t h i s is re c a p p in g some 12 , th in g s we have done e a r l i e r . These were sam ples t h a t 13 you d e s c rib e d e a r l i e r a s b ein g th e th ir d o r fo u rth 14 sa m p les t h a t you to o k in 1965, is t h a t c o r r e c t? 15 A No. T o ta l o f 13 b a tc h e s in th re e 1 d i f f e r e n t programs sin c e 1965, s t a r t i n g in *65. 17 Q And th o se were th e th r e e programs t h a t 18 you were r e s p o n s ib le f o r and t h a t you d e s c rib e d e a r l i e r ? 19 A Three programs I d is c u s s e d e a r l i e r , y e s. 20 Q And, a g a in , we d is c u s s e d e a r l i e r th e 21 tim e t h a t th e h o ld p e rio d was ex ten d ed f o r a p e rio d o f 22 tim e . Is t h a t the 5 .5 h o u rs t h a t 's r e f l e c t e d h ere? 23 A I b e lie v e s o . 24 Q And i t d e a ls 25 o f 70 p a r ts p e r m illio n ? JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE I to- 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 ,1 7;.Y;/ i 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Van. That war a Inb r e s u l t . 0 Ms. th? r not. t bn ^ u X t o f arr a c tu a l process a t N itro? A Yeah, la b and nX**nt. Q W ell, whan w>*i say la b , t h a t ' s th e regression equation, Isn 't th at right7 A Yes. Q Because t h a t's the model, X suppose? A Right. 0 The f i r s t p arag rap h d e s c rib e s an a c tu a l event th a t hsopened a t the Wftro P lant? A That's co rrect, 0 And th i s is a r e f e r e n c e , a g n in , to y o u r 1965 memo, p e rio d ic sam oles fo r the o a s t te n y e a rs , th o se were the re ta in e d samrslep th a t you d e sc rib e d e a r l i e r ? j A Yes. | Q Those w e r e n 't new sam ples o r a d i f f e r e n t j s e t or anything like that? A No. Q What were th e h ig h e s t c o n c e n tra tio n s you say have o c c asio n ally been observed? A What were th e h ig h e r c o n c e n tra tio n s ? Q Yes. :r A The ones we saw e a r lie r o n :.tt^ 7$ x h ib it t h a t had a maximum o f 55 p a r ts p e r m illio n . JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 153 i 1 '; *- -i i.:Or./. .1u.l,1s t ht - th `i r r *j -i"uc r.ion | 2 o i::J is r e l a t i v e 1? -o n starai: 3f; r:0 p a r ts per | 3 m illio n , wa~ based -'.ti your revise? c-f clique r e ta in e d 4 samples a n t th a t graoh th a t was e a r l i e r examined by 5 you, 1:- th a t c o r r e c t? 6 A Eo. 7 3 Abet is your b asis o f th a t conclusion? 8 A The only th in g I can base th a t on is 9 the annlysi:- o the a u to c la v e batch sam ples. 1 0 Q w e ll, now, th o se were th e samples 1 1 t a k e n in 1555 in r e l a t i o n to t h i s and the 13? 1 2 A 13 batcher, taken in th r e e s e p a ra te 1 3 programs . 1 4 Q You sav h e re a s i g n i f i c a n t f r a c tio n 1 5 was l o s t in th e aqueous w aste stre a m s. What do you . 16 mean by th a t? 1 7 A I an th a t th d iffe re n c e between 1 1 8 the amount th a t's analyzed in the au to clav e samples 19 and the amount t h a t was an aly zed in the f in is h e d p ro d u c t 11 1 2 0 samples had to be lo s t in those aqueous w aste stream s. 2 1 Q Is the aqueous w aste stream s the sewer? 22 A I d o n 't know. I'm n o t f a m i l i a r enough M 2 3 w ith the p lan t. .V: H4 24 v _, i ; -;|/w, - - , 1 Q W ell, then, could w u give to tR ig en erai \vyv 2 5 d e f i n i t i o n o f aqueous w aste stre a m s. A re you ta lk in g a b o u t 111 JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE V ', 1 154 1 th e d r a in o r -o re n = rt o f the p re e n s ? , o;; wtiat e r e c tly ? 2 ^ W s llr th e re a rc - *" l e a s t two d i f f e r e n t 3 s te p s where a p ro d u c t I f i s o l a t e d , Th* sodium t r i c h l o r o 4 phenate is is o la te d bv a f i l t r a t i o n step and the. m aterial 5 t h a t goes through the f i l t e r , some o f i t ' s reco v ered 6 and re c y c le d b u t some is d isp o sed o f . And what I*m 7 ta lk in g about is the amount th a t's disposed of in th a t 8 w a ste strea m would c o n ta in pome TDD. L ik ew ise, whan 9 th e sodium ? ,A V.5-T p ro d u ct is a l t e r e d and when the 10 2 ,4 ,5 - T a c id is f i l t e r e d . t h e r e a re w aste stream s t h a t 11 would c o n ta in some or the TO"? t h a t wpc. formed in thr12 h y d r o ly s is o f i t . 1 3 0 And the d if f e r e n c e is i f i t ' s a f-w er 1 4 th a t runs in to the r iv e r , i t goes *nto the riv e r; i f 1 5 i t goes to a waste w ater treatm ent p la n t, i t goes there? 1 6 A R ig h t. Or w hatever o th e r o re -tre a tm e n t 7 th e re i s . I'm J u s t not aware w h at's th e re . 1 8 Q I 'd lik e to r e f e r you to page 17 and 19 in p a r t i c u l a r c a p i t a l l e t t e r D, number 1, su b -p arag raph 20 sm a ll a . I 'd l i k e you to read th o se two se n te n c e s 21 in to th e re c o rd . 22 A " I n to a 1 l i t e r v o lu m e tric f l a s k 23 i s w eighed 0.0900 to 0.1000 gram o f 2 t 3 f7 ,8 p te tr a c h lo r o 24 d ib e n z o -p -d io x in (TDD). Care sh o u ld be tak en i n . t h i s 25 p ro ced u re so a s n o t to a llo w an y TDD to c o n ta c t th e s k in JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 1 or eyes." , 2 Q I'd lik e to re fe r you, p le ase, to 3 page 22 o f your r e p o r t and in p a r t i c u l a r Roman Numeral 4 number IX under T o x ic ity and H azards and I 'd lik e . 5 you to road in to the record the la s t paragraph of th a t 6 section. 7 A "Th-. a c u te t o x i c i t y o f te tr a c h lo r o - 8 d ib e n z o -p -d io x in (TDIO can n o t be o v e rly em phasized. 9 I t is recommended th a t s a fe ty g la s s e s , g lo v e s, s a fe ty 10 shoes and fa c e s h ie ld s c o n s t i t u t e the very minimum 11 s a f e ty re q u ire m e n t. Care should a lso b a tak en to av o id 12 b a c k -s la s h in g from a poor septum in the GLC in s tru m e n t.M 1 3 Q What was the so u rce o f your inform a 14 tio n fo r t h a t sta te m e n t? 1 5 A I did n o t w rite th is p a rt o f the l r e p o r t . The a n a l y t i c a l s e c tio n was w r i tte n by Jim 17 Sims. I review ed i t b u t d id n o t w r i te i t . 18 Q He was re s p o n s ib le f o r w r itin g th a t 1 9 paragraph? 20 A No. The e n t i r e a n a l y t i c a l s e c tio n 21 s t a r t i n g on page 12, s e c tio n B, u n t i l page 22, s e c tio n 10. 22 Q In rev ie w in g h i s ' c o n tr ib u tio n to th e 23 - * *v ^ r e p o r t d id you look a t h is so u rc e s? -; '-i, 2 4 A No, I d o n 't b e lla y e :th e re :ita*:w y ' . 2 5 so u rce . I d o n 't know. I d o n 't r e c a l l , 'r e a l l y . ': JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 156 Q :0o you r e c a l l d is c u s s in g that: to x i c i t y and h azard s e c tio n w ith him? A I d o n 't remember. Q And do you r e c a l l i f you d isc u sse d i t w ith an y member o r r e p r e s e n ta tiv e o f Monsanto M edical D epartm ent? A I d o n 't r e c a l l . -V Q You th in k i t ' s p o s s ib le t h a t you d is c u s s e d i t w ith a member o f th e M edical Departm ent? MR. LOVE: O b je c tio n . Go ahead and answer i t i f you can. A Yes, i t 's p o ssib le, but I d o n 't re member . Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Would you have wanted to a s k a physician about that? MR. LOVE: O b je c tio n a s to th e form. I d o n 't understand the question. For what purpose, what time or anything e ls e . If he can answer I t , answer I t. A Would I have w anted to t a l k to a physician about th a t statem ent? Probably n o t, no. I'm d e f in ite ly stru c k by s a fe ty shoes, Q (By Mr. S k a g 8 ) ^ ^ M d ^ M i i r knowledge a b o u t t o x i c i t y o f TDD t h a t Dow l e t t e r and th e w arning ......................... - - a _. _______ _ _Si*' `Maniple JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE 157 V qX '1 i r v\ v 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 ' * '*14 i:~ when you re c e iv e d i t , 1b t h a t r ig h t? ?'P. TjOVE : O b jecto r* as to the f o r ^ . With $pec i f ic regard to th is e x h ib it and th is time frame and those kinds o f things? A Y ou're asking w hether I had any o th er in fo rm a tio n on t o x i c i t y when I w rote t h i s l e t t e r ? Q (By Mr. Skaggs) Y es, s i r . A I don' t r e c a l l . I may have seen other references. Q When you were p re p a rin g the r e p o r t, d id you u n d erta k e a se arch o f the l i t e r a t u r e re g a rd in g th e t o x i c i t y o f TDD? A No. Q Did you u n d erta k e a se a rc h o f the lite r a tu r e regarding the possible to x ic ity of 2,4,5-T? * A No. i j !i ! I i i Q And d id you u n d erta k e a se a rc h o f the 1 8 lite r a tu r e regarding the possible to x ic ity o f tric h lo ro - 1 9 phenol? 2 0 A No. 2 1 Q Attached as ex h ib its to th is are a 2 2 number o f gas chrom atogram s. What was th e so u rce you 2 3 is ed in p re p arin g th e se which a p p a ^ i f o r e r a ^ l ^ f on 2 4 fig u re 1 on document #004826? 2 5 A A gain, I c a n 't say where th a t p a rtic u la r / JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE V 158 1 example camn from a t th ir ;i rv ieu.lAr ZZn&. 7,'c r e f e r s 2 to f '.".oto 1'- 3 0 '^heo vot* n r ^ t. r in r t h i s , would 4 you have n*?? th r rva t e r ! " 1 provide'? bv Dow o r w ould' 5 you have used s sample you a l l put to g e th e r? I f you 6 wanted to m?ke a sample chromatogram to sh o w 'd io x in 7 c o n ta m in a tio n , how would you have gone a b o u t i t ? 8 A I would th in k i t would have been sim ply 9 a ty p ic a l sample from the la b o ra to ry stu d y , but I ' m n o t 10 s u r e . 11 HP. PTCAGGS: I don' t have any f u r t h e r 12 pues t i o n s . 13 14 W illiam R. U d ell 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 :v>/r * * . 24 JV-rV**- v 25 JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE STATE OF ILLINOIS > ) ss. COUNTY OF t&LISCii ) I , II. JOY SPRINGER, a N otary P u b lic , d u ly commissioned and q u a lifie d in and fo r the County of M adison, S ta te o f I l l i n o i s , do h ereb y c e r t i f y t h a t p u rsu a n t to n o tic e cane b e fo re me on th e 18th day o f J u ly , 19S3, a t the Rad is son H o te l, Room 215, 9th S tre e t and Convention la z a , S t. L ouisp M issouri, WILLIAM R. UDELL, who was by Die d u ly sworn to t e s t i f y to the tr u th and n o thing but the tr u th o f h is knowledge to u ch in g axtd co n cern in g th e m a tte rs in c o n tro v e rsy in th i s c a s e ; th a t he was th ereu p o n c a r e f u l l y examined upon o ath , and h is exam ination reduced to w ritin g under my s u p e rv is io n ; t h a t th e d e p o s itio n is a tr u e record o f the testim ony given by the w itn ess; and s ig n a tu re o f th e w itn e ss was n o t w aived. I FURTHER CERTIFY t h a t I am n e i th e r a tto r n e y nor counsel fo r nor r e la te d to ncr employed by and o f th e p a rtie s to the a c tio n in which th is d ep o sitio n is ta k e n ; and f u r t h e r , t h a t I am n o t a r e l a t i v e o r employee o f any a t to r n e y o r c o u n s e l employed ..by th e p a r tie s h e re to , o r f in a n c ia lly l n t e i n t e d in th e . : a c tio n . XN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have tareunto s e t my JAM ES MAY REPORTING SERVICE I 1 hand and a f f ix e d my n o ta r i a i s e a l on Luis 2 day o ____________________________ , l 9 o 3 . 3 A 5 6 Notary Public w ithin and fo r tha County of Madison, S ta te o f I l l i n o i s . 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 f i . , . ' if:-. T jC v -oe * * 25 JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE