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Conttnuatton ofa V&poAitton ofa E. SCOTT TUCKER, Pk.V takzn on the 24th day oJam, 1992.
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HARTOLDMON0043293
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1 A . Yes.
2 Q. I was just trying to obtain the numbers .
3 MR. KASHANI: Enough for today?
4
Okay.
Thank you, Doctor.
5 (THE DEPOSITION WAS ADJOURNED UNTIL THE
6 FOLLOWING DAY)
7 - (CONTINUATION OF DEPOSITION ON 6/24/92)
8 BY MR. KASHANI:
9 Q . Good morning, Dr . Tucker 10 A . Good morning, Saied.
11 Q Do you remember that you 're still under
12 oath?
13 A . Yes. But thank you for reminding me .
14 Q . Dr. Tucker, I'm going to show you a
15 document which, unfortunately, is not
16 Bates numbered, but have tagged the
17 interesting pages, but - - -
18 A . Before we get started, I think we had
19 some unfinished business from yesterday
20 that I was supposed to check into,. Do
21 you mind if I -- 22 Q . Oh, yes. Certainly-.
23 A . -------- answer with regard to that?
24 Q . Please. Please.
25 A . Okay. I checked , and my Ph.D. degree
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES HARTOLDMON0043294
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1 from the University of Iowa was awarded
2 in February, 1968, which would mean that
3 I probably began working at Monsanto in
4
the fourth quarter of 1967.
And I'm
5 sorry about the little lapse in memory,
6 but it has been ------- oh, gosh -------- I guess
7 two and a half decades or something like
8 that. And when I was depose d in-------- i n
9
the Outboard Marine Case I m i s s p o k e
4.
10
myself.
That is not correct in that
11
record.
So , let this record reflect that
12 that's not correct, that it was a ye a r
13 off.
14 Q . So, if you began work in the fourth 15 quarter o f 1967, when did Dr . Keller give
16 you the ass ignment to look i n t o the P CB
17 issue?
18
MR. ZIMMER:
Asked and answered.
19 A. I believe that's already been asked and
20 answered.
21 Q, Well --------
22 A. Do you want to go back and review in the
23 record --------
24 Q . Well--------
''
25 A. -------or I can------------I can------------
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1 Q. I'd like to get the years now, if we
'2 could.
3 A. Well, I mean, my memory is about as clear
4 about that as it was about when I got my
5 degree, which is probably something I
6 would remember better than when I was
7 assigned this problem, which wasn't
8 particularly, you know, known to be
9
important at that time.
It would-------I.
10 ------- it's very doubtful that a brand new
11 graduate student out of a university
12 would receive an assignment like that
13 immediately upon arriving at Monsanto.
14 My guess would be sometime in '68.
15 Q, But, I guess with this as the starting
16 point, with the fourth quarter of 1967 as
17 the starting point, can we rely on
18 yesterday's testimony that you received
19 this assignment, I believe it was three
20 to six months after starting work?
21
MR. ZIMMER:
I think that
22 mischaracterizes his testimony, but
23 if that's your recollection, Doctor
24
25 A. I think we set up a window yesterday. My
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1
'2 MR. ZIMMER: That's fine.
3 A. My--------let me------------let me------------I've thought
4 about this, because, you know, it bothers
5 us all as we get older that we don't
6 remember things, and then of course, we
7 have no base line, because I don't know
8 what you remember, you know, at your age.
9 So I don't know whether I'm losing it o.r
10
not.
I doubt it.
11 Q. I assure you that I remember absolutely
12 nothing from 1967.
13 A. The situation was when Ijoined Monsanto,
14 I recall my first assignment. And my
15 first assignment was in the atomic
16 emission area to look at metal
17
spectroscopy.
And we ------- I remember
18 buying a Perkin Elmer model 303 atomic
19 absorption instrument, which was a state
20 of the art brand new kind of instrumental
21
technique at that time.
And I remember
22
working on that.
So I know that at least
23 the first three months, if not longer,
24 when I was with Monsanto, was just, you
25 know, getting settled in and being given
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 new kind of projects to, you know, get my
2 attitude- good and get my feet on the
3 ground and so I'd understand the system.
4 I know from my own experience that most
5 people that we get, unless they are
6 overachievers -------- even when they're
7 overachievers -------- it's about six months
8 before they really settle down and they
9 really start to perform effectively fr o.m
10 my viewpoint as a -------- as a senior level
11 management ----- laboratory management
12
person nowadays.
So the routine is that
13 the windowing is probably three to six
14 months or more before I got started on
15 the ------- on the project, or before Keller
16
assigned it to me.
And then there's, you
17 know, a time frame of putting things
18 together after that, purchasing
19 equipment. Equipment doesn't come out
20 like that. I mean first of all, you
21 know, you have to get a ------- you know, a
22 approval for the do 11 a r s, and you have to
23 get a quot e, and then you have to order
24 it, and they have to make it and then
25 they ship it and things of that sort.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 So, that's --------- is that helping you?
'2 Q. I believe so. I think what we were
3 trying to do yesterday was set a time
4 frame, starting from a beginning point,
5 and we've now, I guess, established a
6 beginning point -------
7 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
8 Q. -------- which is when you started work, which
9 would be the fourth quarter of 1967.
10 A. Sometime during the fourth quarter of
11 1967 and that ---------- and that jibes with the
12 fact that the degree at the University of
13 Iowa was awarded in February of 1968.
14
Q. All right.
And then we discussed a
15 certain period after that. You were
16 given this assignment, then a certain
17
period --------
18 A. Correct. 19 Q . -- after that - -- 20 A . Cor r e c t . 21 Q . -- certain other events happened.
22 A . Cor r e c t .
23 Q . All right. S o , given this beginning
24 p o i nt , is there anything else you'd like
25 t o clarify about the succeeding event --
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 the timing of the succeeding event from
'2 yesterday -------
3 A . I-------
'
4 Q. ------- other than the beginning point?
5
MR. ZIMMER:
I think that was the
6 only thing you asked him to double
7 check on, so -------
8 A. Yes, the clarification is for your
9 benefit.
10 Q. I understand.
11 A. And so, if you require more
12 clarification, I'd be happy to try it.
13 MR. ZIMMER: Let's let him ask the
14 question before you answer.
15 A . Okay.
16 Q. All right. So, given this beginning
17 point, do you remember when you first
18 started running standards through the
19 equipment ------- meaning the gas
20 chromatograph with electron capture and
21 the gas chromatograph with the mass
22 spectrometer?
23 MR. ZIMMER: Asked and answered.
-5'
24 Q. Well, I mean, with all due respect, I
25 mean ------- I understand that, you know,
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1
it's a long time ago.
But we have a
2 deposition that was taken ten years ago
3 with completely different dates than what
4 I've just heard.
5
MR. ZIMMER:
Okay and what the
6 dates showed on that deposition ---------
7
.
MR. KASHANI:
Wait a minute.
I'm
8 not directing my attentions to you,
9 and I'd appreciate if for once you,
10 don't testify.
11
MR. ZIMMER:
You know, I'm getting
12 so tired of hearing that worn-out
13 criticism of that I'm testifying.
14 If you ask a fair question, I won't
15
have anything to say.
But this
16 prefacing of every one of your
17 questions as with, "Well, you told
18 me yesterday. Has that changed now"
19
20
MR . KASHANI:
Oh , no, no. n o .
21
MR . ZIMMER:
Just because the man
22 has figured out the exact date o f
23 his degree.
24
MR . KASHANI:
No , no.
I ' m e n t i 11 e d
25
t o go forward --------I
guess what I ' m
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043301
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1 responding to is your "asked and
2 answered" objection. I'm entitled to
3 go forward from an established date
4 to establish a time line from that
5 date now that it's been established.
6 It is not appropriate for you to say
7 that these questions have been asked
8 and answered when yesterday we
9
hadn't established a beginning
_
10 point. Now that we've established a
11 beginning point, I'd like to go
12 forward and establish the dates from
13
that beginning point.
So I don't
14 think it's appropriate for you to
15 say "asked and answered."
16 MR. ZIMMER: All right.. Are you
17 done?
18
MR. KASHANI:
Yes.
19
MR. ZIMMER:
Okay.
It' s very
20 appropriate for me to say, "asked
21 and answered," because merely
22 establishing a beginning point
23 doesn't change the answers that he
24 gave you yesterday to the precise
25
same questions.
He wasn't able to
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 answer the question yesterday except
2 to give you broad time frames in
3 terms of the number of months after
4 he started.
5 MR. KASHANI: Well, maybe we can
6
7
MR. ZIMMER:
So what difference
8 does it make --------
9
MR. KASHANI:
-------- fill in --------
10
MR. ZIMMER:
Let me finish.
What
11 difference does i t make whether he
12 started in 19 67 o r 1 97 3 ? You think
13 the answer is going to be different
14 the second day.
15 MR. KASHANI: We're trying to
16 establish some dates and years --------
17
MR . ZIMMER:
It's your time -
18
MR . KASHANI:
--------if
possible
19
MR . ZIMMER:
You can spend it
20 you want, but, I mean, he told you
21 the answer to at least two of the
22 questions that' you have now
23 addressed to him this morning,
24 yesterday.
25 Q . Given this beginning point of starting
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 work in the fourth quarter of 1967, do
'2 you remember the year that you first
3 began running the standards through the
4
5 A . The year?
6 Q. -------- mass spectrometer?
7 A. Probably 1968.
8 Q . Okay.
9 A. Now, wait. Wait a minute. You said m a. s s
10
spectrometer, okay.
And you've lumped a
11 couple of things together here.
12 Q. I understand.
13 A. Your earlier question that I was going to
14 ask you to separate. You need to
15 separate gas chromatography electron
16 capture and gas chromatography mass spec.
17 Q. Let's do that.
18 A. Gas chromatography electron capture was
19 the instrument that I ordered and that I
20 set up and that I operated initially.
21 Gas chromatography mass spectrometry was
22 an instrument that I believe was operated
23 in Martin Deitrich's group by Jim
24 Mieuer, that I used through Jim Mieuer,
25 in other words, had him do it, because he
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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199
1 was the mass spec expert and things of
'2 that sort. And so answering your
3 question earlier, I'd like to amend your
4 question to reflect that it's GC electron
5 capture and not mass spec, because mass
6 spec, that's erroneous.
7 Q. Okay. So let me -------
8 A. I think that's important.
9 Q. No, I understand. I understand because. I
10 understand certain equipment was obtained
11
later.
So, when did you first begin
12 running standards through the gas
13 chromatograph electron capture equipment?
14 A. I guess it would be sometime in 1968.
15 Q. And do you remember when you first
16 started running samples from the
17 environment through the mass spectrometer
18 electron capture equipment?
19
A. Okay.
The mass spectrometer will always
20 happen at a much later date --------
21 Q. I'm sorry.
22 A. --------than the elect ron capture, so------------
23
Q. I misspoke.
I meant the gas
24 chromatograph electron capture --------
25 A . Okay.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 Q. ------- when you first began running samples
2 through --------
3 A. Not specifically. But it would have
4 occurred after the equipment had been
5 ordered, after the equipment had been
6 received, after the equipment had been
7 set up, after the standards had been
8 obtained, after we'd run the standards
9 through, after we'd developed the
10 preparative methods and things of that
11
sort.
You don't just jump in and do the
12 environmental samples, because in order
13 to get the constituents that you're
14 interested in out of the environmental
15 samples, you have to go through and spike
16 similar matrices that are free from the
17 materials with knowns, go through it,
18 make sure you get the recovery, and in
19 this particular case with PCB's, it was
20 particularly complex, because there was
21 like 210 potential isomers, so you have
22 to make sure that you put the material in
23 the matrix, you run it through your
24 isolations procedures that gets it in a
25 form that you can feed it to the
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 instrument and then you have to look at
'2 that relative t o r eal standards to see if
3 any one of the 2 10 things have changed,
4 so it's--------it ' s a rather complex
5
situation.
It ' s n ot like developing
6 methodology for a single constituent.
7 It's at least 210 times more complicated,
8 and in reality, it's probably some
9
factorial of 210.
I don't know if you _
10 know what factorials are, but 210
11 factorial is some number that we never
12 will understand.
13 Q . So--------
14 A. I'm trying to give you what I think you
15 want, and that's a feeling for how this
16 development occurred and the difficulty
17 and the amount of time required.
18
Q. All right.
I think I have an
19 understanding --------
20 A. I'd like to be responsive to your
21 questions -------
22
Q. I understand.
I think I have an
23
understanding of how this works.
I mean,
24 it's not something that you just -------- from
25 what I understand, and correct me if I'm
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043307
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1 wrong -- it's not s omet hin g that you
'2 just, you know , pour something in a test
3 tube and then look at it and then you
4
have the answer.
I understand that it
5 requires very precise methods and precise
6 work.
7 A . Well, that's correct. And the other
8 thing that -------
9 MR. ZIMMER: Let's let him ask y o.u
10 a question.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay.
12 A . Let me qualify this. I'd like to qualify
13
this though.
I'd like to qualify this.
14 Okay? Less than one percent of the
15 people in the United States have Ph.D.s,
16 and even a lesser amount than that are in
17 chemistry. Okay? That kind of
18 assignment went to an individual with
19 that kind of level of training and not
20 somebody else; okay? And so, that,
21 again, reflects the degree of complexity,
22 the degree of training and the degree of
23 experience that's required to execute
24 these techniques. At that point in time
25 electron capture and mass spec were
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 leading edge technologies that -------- that
' 2 were just being developed and understood.
3
Okay. I'm sorry.
I'll get off my
4 soapbox .
5
Q. No.
I understand.
And do you recall
6 what equipment it was that Jensen and
7 Widmark used?
8 A. Yes.They used ---------------- the one piece of
9 equipment that I do remember was an LKB_
10 mass spectrometer.
11 Q. Did they -------
12 A. The brand names of the other stuff they
13 used I don't have the faintest idea.
14 Q. Did they use gas chromatograph and the
15 mass spectrometer in conjunction?
16
A. Yes, they did.
They were one of the
17 pioneers in terms of interfacing that.
18 And I think they worked very closely with
19 LKB, which was the instrument company
20 doing that. And there weren't that many
21 mass spec instrument companies around,
22 so, it required, again, a lot of
23 expertise, a lot of knowledge, and a lot
24 of dollars to do that kind of routine.
25 Q. And this is referring to the work Jensen
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 and Widmark did back in 1966?
2 A . '66. '67. I believe '67 was the first
3 documentation of their work that I saw.
4
Maybe '68, something like that.
That was
5 the date on the information.
6 Q. So, Jensen and Widmark were using this
7 --------as you described it------------leading edge
8 technology before Monsanto?
9 A . Yes .
_
10 Q. So, if we can go back to the question of
11 ------- I think we've left off at the point
12 that you started to run the standards
13 through the gas chromatograph and the
14 electron capture. Could I ask if you
15 remember approximately how long it was
16 after you began running the standards
17 through the gas chromatograph electron
18 capture before you could begin using
19 samples from the environment, or begin
20 testing samples from the environment?
21 A. Now, the question is -------
22 Q. Do you recall approximately how long it
23 was after the time that you began running
24 standards through the gas chromatograph
25 electron capture equipment to the time
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 when you began running samples from the
2 environme n t ?
3 A . No , I don ' t .
4 Q . Was it on the o r d e r of six months, a
5 year?
6 MR . ZIMMER: Asked and answered.
7 A . Let me cl arify the situation -------
8
MR . ZIMMER:
No .
Answer his
9 qu e s tions and let him do the work,
10
okay .
That ' s the way we want a
11 depo s i t i o n .
12
THE WITNESS:
Can I--------I would
13 like to talk to you off the record.
14 I n e e d to c1a r i f y something.
15
MR . ZIMMER:
All right.
Let's take
16 a re cess.
17 (OFF RECORD)
18 Q . I'll just ask my previous question. Do
19 you recall approximately how long it was
20 between the time you first started
21 running standards through the gas
22 chromatograph electron capture equipment
23 and you first ran samples from the
24 environment?
25 A . No.
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1 Q. I guess my next question was do you '2 recall approximately the order of time,
3 between six months and a year, 4 approximately how long it was? 5 A. I mean, we could play this arbitration 6 game in terms of, you know, any number 7 ------- the number of how I feel and things, 8 but I don't remember, as I stated. 9 Q. Are there any documents that might .. 10 refresh your recollection as to when 11 these events occurred? 12 A. I'm sure there are. 13 Q. Do you know what those documents might 14 be? 15 A. They could be original electron capture 16 chromatogram traces from the instrument 17 and things of that sort. 18 Q. Could they be lab notebooks? 19 MR. ZIMMER: Calls for speculation. 20 A. I believe I stated earlier that I wasn't 21 in the habit of keeping a lab notebook 22 unless I was dealing with something that 23 was patentable, or, you know, something 24 of that sort, so I -------- I answered the 25 question.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 Q. Did anyone who was working on the '2 equipment keep a lab notebook? By 3 "equipment," I mean the gas chromatograph
4 and electron capture? 5 MR. ZIMMER: Same objection. 6 A . No. 7 Q. Let me refer back to your deposition in 8 the Outboard Marine Case. We'll be 9 introducing portions of this into the 10 record, not the whole thing, but 11 portions . 12 A . That's good. Good Lord, that11 s a thick 13 document!i 14 Q . First of all, you said before that you 15 recalled this deposition? 16 A . I recall the event. 17 Q. Do you recall if the -------- the caption of 18 the case is listed as United States 19 versus Outboard Marine Corporation and 20 Monsanto Company. Do you recall if 21 Monsanto was a defendant in that case? 22 A. Monsanto was a co-def e n d a n t . 23 Q. Do you recall the substance of the case? 24 A. I believe the substance of the case was 25 with regard to environmental
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 contamination with PCBs by Outboard
2 Marine in terms of the waythey were
3 using it and things of that sort.
4 Q. Were these PCBs originally purchased from
5 Monsanto?
6 A . Yes.
7 Q. At this particular deposition, do you --------
8 A. Well, let me correct that. They could
9
-------- they were probably originally
.
10 manufactured by Monsanto because Monsanto
11 was the sole U.S. manufacturer of these
12 materials, and I doubt they wouldgo to
13
Europe or someplace else to get them.
I
14 mean, there wouldn't be any cost
15 incentive. Whether or not Monsanto sold
16 them to a broker who, in turn, sold them
17 to Outboard Marine, I have no knowledge
18 o f .
19 Q. Do you mean that Monsanto was the sole
20 U.S. manufacturer of PCBs?
21 A. Do I mean that?
22 Q. When you said sole manufacturer --------
23 A. That's what I thought I said, yes.
24 Q. ------- of these things?
25 A. Yes. They were the sole U.S.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 manufacturer of PCBs to my knowledge.
2 Q. Do you recall the specific deposition, I
3 guess it' s listed as having taken place
4 o n Ap ri 1 15, 1982?
5 A . I believe I mentioned -- - I believe I
6 answered earlier that I recalled i t . 7 Q Were you represented by counsel - --
8 A . Yes.
9 Q -------- at that deposition? An d were you
10 testifying under oath at that time?
11 A . Yes. And it states in here that I was
12 duly sworn in and things o f that sort, so
13 page three.
14 MR. ZIMMER: No . He 1' s aware o f
15 that.
16 Q Let's save some time here. While that ' s 17 being taken care of, let's turn to
18
something else.
I'm going to hand you
19 the exhibit that I had originally.
20 MR. KASHANI: Mark this 334.
21 (Thereupon the Court Reporter
22 marked the.pertinent document as
23 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 334-A)
'*
24 Q. I'll ask you to take a look at that.
25 A. (Witness complies with request).
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 Q. 'Dr. Tucker, you've had some time to look
<2
at the Exhibit.
Do you ------
3 MR. ZIMMER: Are you finished
4 looking at it?
5
THE WITNESS:
If you ask about
6 areas that I haven't gotten to, I
7 can look at it again.
8 Q. Okay. This Exhibit seems torefer to a
9 presentation that was made to the
10 Interdepartmental Task Force on PCBs, May
11
15, 1972.
Is this the presentation you
12 mentioned yesterday in the context of
13 discussions with the Corporate Management
14 Committee?
15
A. Yes.This is a presentation that
I
16 mentioned yesterday that wasgiven, I
17 believe, to either members or --------- I know
18 it was certainly given to Howard Bergen
19 and those kind of folks prior to being
20 presented externally, which is a standard
21 procedure for companies -------- for every
22 company I ever worked for.
23 Q. Do you recall giving the actual
24 presentation to, I guess it was a
25 government body?
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043316
211
1 A . Yes.
2 Q. Does the description of your portion of
3 the presentation begin on --------
4 unfortunately, the pages aren't numbered,
5 but there is a page that begins with
6 "Assessment of the Biological Persistence
7 of Polychlorinated Biphenyls by Dr. E.S.
8 Tucker".
9 A . Ye s .
.
10 Q. Does this describe your portion of the
11 presentation?
12 A. Yes. The reason I remember that is that
13 it's a fairly high honor to present this
14 kind of information to the -------- to a
15 interdisciplinary group that's appointed
16 through the President's Council on
17 Environmental Quality.
18 Q. I understand. Let me refer you to what I
19 believe is a slide or maybe a part of the
20 presentation.
21 MR. KASHANI: Let's go off the record
22 for a second. '
23 (OFF RECORD)
24 Q. Let me refer you to the first page which
25
describes your presentation.
It's the
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMONOQ43317
212
1 page that at the top, again, reads
2 "Assessment of the Biological persistence
3 of PCBs". Refer you to the second to
4 last paragraph on that page, that begins
5 with, "Aroclor 1016 is a special case in
6 that while it contains about 40 percent
7 chlorine by weight --------
8 A . 4 1.
9
Q. 41 percent.
I'm sorry.
"-------- chlorine by
10 weight, its penta, hexa, and heptachloro
11 biphenyl content has been significantly
12 reduced with respect to Aroclor 1242, a
13 product produced by direct chlorination,
14 containing 42 percent by weight
15 chlorine." Is this Aroclor 1016 the same
16 as MCS 1016?
17 A . Yes.
18 Q. What is Aroclor 1016?
19 A. Basically, as I recall, Aroclor 1016 or
20 MCS 1016 was a 42 percent chlorinated
21 product that was distilled.
22 Q. You mean, it was t a-k ing Aroclor 1242 and
23 distilling it?
24 A. It was taking 42 percent chlorinated
25 biphenyl and distilling it.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 Q How was that 42 percent chlorinated
2 biphenyl manufactured?
3 A . By ------- in the standard process that --------
4 that Monsanto used.
5 Q Was that the same manufacturing process
6 we discussed yesterday?
7 A . Yes.
8 Q Was the 42 percent biphenyl manufactured
9 in the same way that Aroclor 1242 was
10 manufactured?
11 A . Yes. It's just that at the point that it
12 was 42 percent chlorinated, there are
13 some other steps that I think, I believe,
14 were taken to produce the actual product
15 that was called Aroclor 1242.
16
Q I see.
So it's -------
17 A . That's why I differentiate --------
18 Q What were those final steps? Were those
19 the-------
20 A . The final steps were --------
21 Q ------- distillation process?
22 A . ------- as I recall -------- I'm an analytical
23 chemist, not a process chemist, and I
24 wasn't in charge of that particular
25 operation ------- but, as I recall, there was
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 some treatments of the materials with 2 diatomaceous ------- blowing it with air to 3 remove ------- dry air to remove HC1 and then 4 treatment of the material with 5 diatomaceous earths or some kind of 6 absorbent ------- solid absorbent material 7 and then filtering to remove any residual 8 amounts of hydrochloric acid or chloride 9 materials that were deleterious to the 10 dielectric properties of the fluid. 11 Q. Did these steps change the PCB content or 12 PCB composition? 13 A. Not to my knowledge. 14 Q. So, the base, before the distillation 15 step in the production of MCS 1016, or 16 Aroclor 1016, was the beginning product 17 in terms of PCBs and terms of PCB 18 content, the same as Aroclor 1242? 19 A. Yes. Yeah. I think I understand your 20 questions. 21 Q. I guess what I'm saying is, that absent 22 this step that you mentioned, in order to 23 make Aroclor 1016, you would take Aroclor 24 1242 and distill it to produce Aroclor'' 25 10 16?
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1 A . No .
2 Q. Then what -------
3 A. That's the point I'm making. The point
4 I'm making is that you wouldn't go to
5 completely producing the final product,
6 Aroclor 1242 and then convert the final
7 product, Aroclor 1242 into what was
8 Aroclor -------- what was eventually called
9 Aroclor 1016. You would do that step
10 prior -------
11 Q . 11 w a s
Okay. But in
12 order to produce Aroclor 1016, do you
13 start with a product that has the same
14 PCB content and ratios as Aroclor 1242?
15 A. It was my understanding that they did.
16 Q. And then, at that point, you would remove
17 a certain number ------- or remove a number
18 of the penta, hexa, and heptachloro
19 biphenyls from that product to get
20 Aroclor 1016?
21 MR. ZIMMER: At what point, when you
22 say, "at that point"?
23 Q. Well, you ------- if we have to go through
24 the manufacturing process, as you stated,
25 you start with a product which has a PCB
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1 content similar to -------- the same as
2 Aroclor 1242 and then there are some
3 other steps which you discussed --------
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. -------- and then, at some point in the
6 process, do you remove -------- to manufacture
7 Aroclor 1016 -------- do you remove the penta,
8 hexa, and heptachloro biphenyl, meaning
9
the PCBs with five, six or seven
_
10 chlorines on them, or do you remove some
11 portion of those PCBs?
12 A. Let me -------- let me say this -------- the
13 efficacy of the Aroclor products or PCB
14 products, relative to their safety and to
15 their dielectric properties and all that
16 kind of good stuff, was dependent upon
17 the chlorine ratios, so a product like
18 Aroclor 1242 had to contain 42 percent
19 chlorine and had to have the isomeric
20 distribution fairly closely that it had
21 to perform the way it did in dielectric,
22 you know, and fluid applications from
23 properties viewpoint, including the
24 safety aspect of it and that kind of good
25
stuff.
So, the deal here is -------- what I
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1 think you're trying to say is that the
'2 product was produced, and then it was
3 distilled and fractionated to the extent
4 that the higher chlorinated homologs were
5 removed, is that what we're getting at
6 here?
7 Q. Sure. I mean, what we're talking about
8 is you have a product that starts out
9 with the same -------- in the manufacturing .
10 process you have a product that starts
11 with the same PCB content and ratio as
12 Aroclor 1242, but then you take it
13 through a distillation process to remove
14 a portion of the PCBs with five or six or
15 seven chlorines?
16 A. Right. As I recall, Aroclor 1242 had -------
17 you know, it's kind of like a Gaussian
18
distribution.
It's determined by the
19 reactivity. And I believe Aroclor 1242
20 had something on the o r d e r of about five
21 to eight percent of PCBs that would have
22 a chlorine number of five and above i n
23 i t .
24 Q. Five, six or seven chlorines?
25 A. Correct.
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1
Q. More than five?
Five or more?
'2 A. Five or greater chlorines, up to maximum
3 theoretical possible, which was ten. And
4 I believe it was somewhere on the order
5 of five to eight percent, in that range.
6 Q. Is that percentage -------- just a quick aside
7 --- is that percentage accurately
8 reflected in the chart Ishowed you the
9 otherday?
_
10
A. You will have to show me the chart.
I
11 don't recall it.
12 MR. ZIMMER: He's talking about the
13
handwritten chart
here.
14 Q. That's Exhibit 332.
15
MR. ZIMMER:
He didn't prepare it.
16
That calls for speculation.
You
17 asking him now to interpret this
18 chart , and he's not your expert.
19 A . You cannot tell from thi s chart .
20 Q All right. Going back t o MCS 1016 --------
21 A . Or I cannot tell from th i s chart. I
22
don't know what you can d o .
Excuse me
23 I didn't mean to speak f o r you.
24 Q Going back to MCS 1016, d o you recall
25 reason for removing the -- - as you
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 described ------- the five to ten percent of
2 PCBs from Aroclor 1242 that had five or
3 more chlorines -------
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. ------- on the biphenyl? What was that
6 reason?
7 A. At this point in time ------- and I believe
8 this document is dated May 15th, 1972 --------
9 we had accumulated enough scientific and
10 other types of information, both
11 externally and internally, with regard to
12 polychlorinated biphenyls and the way
13 they behaved in the environment to have a
14 good picture of what was going on
15 finally. What we had found, basically
16 ------- this is strictly my opinion -------- was
17 that the only problems associated with
18 PCBs were the long-term, from an
19 environmental viewpoint -------- and it was a
20 potential situation -------- was the long-term
21 persistence of the
isomers
22
and above
five and above, based on,
23 you know, looking at environmental
24 samples that were way up the trophic
25
line, things of that sort.
So it was
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1 felt that with proper product stewardship
2 by the people who used it, once everybody
3 became aware of the situation - -- and we
4 had a pretty good picture in 1972 --------
5 that a product that was devoid of the
6 small amount of penta and above isomers
7 could still be used in dielectric and
8 some very closed system type applications
9 where safety was a paramount
..
10 consideration and things of that sort,
11 which is really what Aroclors were used
12 for to begin with, because they were a
13
fairly expensive product.
And if cheaper
14 substitutes were available, and there
15 were many, they would have been used, but
16 they just didn't have the flammability
17 properties of the Aroclor and the safety
18
record of the Aroclor.
So the attempt
19 here, and what I'm trying to say is that
20 Aroclor 1016 was Aroclor 1242 earlier in
21 the game there, in the manufacturing
22
process.
It was distilled to remove the
23 five to eight percent higher chlorinated
24 homologs and to produce a product that,
25 if it was used properly, wouldn't
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 contribute ------- continue to contribute to
2 the accumulation of the persistent
3
isomers in the environment.
In other
4 words, it wouldn't overwhelm the
5 environment's ability to handle those
6 isomers which was a bit slow and very
7 hard to even observe.
8 Q. You mean the environment's ability to
9 handle the PCBs with five or more
10 chlorines was, as you say, a bit slow and
11 difficult to observe?
12 A . Correct.
13 Q. Was the distillation process to produce
14 MCS 1016, was that a difficult process or
15 expensive?
16 A. I'm not a process chemist, and I have no
17 knowledge of the dollars associated with
18 it or the difficulty at the level that
19 they did it with the existing equipment
20 and things of that sort, so I -------- I don't
21 feel qualified to answer that question.
22 Q. And the answer you gave concerning the
23 reasons for producing MCS 1016, is that
24 Monsanto ------- is that the conclusion that
25 -------- as far as you know -------- I'm asking
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1 for your knowledge -------- Monsanto --------
2 people at Monsanto reached prior to
3 producing MCS 1016?
4 MR. ZIMMER: Lacks foundation and
5 calls for speculation.
6 Q. I mean, you gave me the reasons for
7 producing MCS 1016.
8 A. I mean that was -------- can we -------- can we get
9
the questions down to where I don't
,
10 forget the front before we get to the
11 end? Please. Or ask two.
12 Q. You mentioned the reasons for producing
13 MCS 1016, and I'm wondering were those
14 reasons -------- you mentioned those reasons
15 with reference to this document, which is
16
dated 1972.
I'm wondering if those
17 reasons were in place when Monsanto first
18
started producing MCS 1016.
I mean, were
19 you aware of those reasons for producing
20 the product?
21 A. Not -------
22 MR. ZIMMER: Same objections.
23
Oka y
Let me s t at e this.
Not to the
24 deg r e e that we wer e aware at this point
25
i n time .
This is a n evolutionary
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1
process.
Back originally when PCBs were
2 first even reported being found in the
3 environment, nobody understood how they
4 got there or where they came from or any
5
of those kinds of routines.
I mean it
6 ------- the knowledge that we have today is
7 so much superior, based on our experience
8 and all the work that we've done,
9
relative to what happens in the
..
10 environment that back then, you know, we
11 were like two years old, okay, in our --------
12 in our understanding of that kind of
13 thing. So the whole thing was an
14 evolutionary process. And in 1972, we
15 had achieved what's called a state of
16 grace in terms of having enough
17 knowledge, both internally and externally
18 ------- and it wasn't just Monsanto folks --------
19 that we felt we understood the mechanisms
20 that were going on in terms of the
21 environmental movements and PCBs and what
22
was happening.
I don't know whether that
23 answers your question or not, but it
24 answers it from my viewpoint in terms of
25 the evolutionary process. So, whether or
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1 .not ------- the question was we had -------- when
2 we first started manufacturing MCS 16 --------
3 whether we had the same knowledge we had
4 in 1972, the answer to that would be
5 "no", because we continued to generate
6 knowledge until I left the company in
7 1978, in fact there are still people
8 today who are generating knowledge with
9 regards to this particular problem.
10 Q. Sure. I understand that. But ------- let's
11
see if we can go at it another way.
Do
12 you recall when it was that Monsanto
13 first manufactured MCS 1016?
14 A . No .
15 Q. I'll show you a document.
16 MR. KASHANI: Mark this Exhibit
17
335.
I'm sorry.
18 (Thereupon the Court Reporter
19 marked the pertinent document as
20 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 335-A)
21 Q. I'm not suggesting that you received this
22 or that you remember it, but --------
23 A. You're not what? I'm sorry.
24 Q. Your name is not listed here, so I'm not
25 suggesting that you were copied on this
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 document. But does this trigger any
2 recollection as to when Monsanto began
3 producing ------- or experimenting with in
4 this case ------- MCS 1016?
5 A. You're asking me to document the validity
6 of this document?
7 Q. No, I'm wondering if this document
8 triggers any recollection as to MCS 1016?
9 A. Not any specific knowledge on my part as
10 to dates or days or times or anything of
11 that sort, no.
12 Q. This material
this document refers to
13
a material known as Aroclor 1242B.
Is
14 that the same material as -------- or the same
15
product,eventually as
MCS 1016?
16 A. I don't recall working with any product
17 called 12 4 2B .
18 Q Did you ever have an occasion t o test MCS
19 10 16 i n your biodegradation st u d i e s ?
20 A . Yes.
21 Q . And what were the results?
22 A . The biodegradation studies, I be 1 i e v e ,
23 without check ing the record -- - and there
24 i s , you know, it's published a 1 1 over the
25 place - -- was that it degraded a t o r
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 about the same rate as Aroclor 1242, and
2 that the degradation rate was
3 proportional to the degree of
4 chlorination in the studies that were
5 pe r f o rmed .
6 (OFF RECORD)
7 (While off the record the Court
8 Reporter marked the pertinent
9 document as PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT
10 3 3 6 -A) .
11 Q Dr. Tucker, do you recognize this
12 document?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Did you write it? 15 A Yes.
16 Q Up at the top it says "Special Study 17 71-2." Now, what does that mean?
18 A As I believe we discussed earlier, the
19 first the special study, there were three
20 types of reports that we issued: special
21 studies, methods, and new techniques in
22
the analytical chemistry group.
71
23 refers to the year. The 2 refers to the
24 sequence ------- the zero sequence of the
25 report.
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1 Q. So this was part of a series of reports?
'2 A. Correct. '
3 Q. Referring to the title, it says., "MCS
4 1016 - An environmentally compatible
5 Aroclor." What did you mean by that. 6 II environmentally compatible"?
7 A. It meant that -------- as I recall -------- that
8 the material, if released -------- if
9 controlled properly and used properly and
10 only released at very low levels -------- that
11 there would be no environmental problems
12 as we saw them at that point.
13 Q. Referring again to the first page, this
14 is page TRAN 036753, under the section of
15
summary, the first sentence reads:
"The
16 information present in this special study
17 report demonstrates that, from an
18 environmental viewpoint, MCS 1016 is at
19 least 10 times better than the current
20 product Aroclor 1242." Now, what did you
21 mean by that?
22 A. I believe I meant that the laboratory
23 information that we were able to produce
24 in studying the two materials
25 indicated that whatever we
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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228
1 felt at that point in time was ------- had to
2 do with environmental compatibility --------
3 that MCS 1016 was, in our judgment, a
4 factor of ten better.
5 Q. Better than Aroclor 1242?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Meaning whatever environmental -------- I'm
8 going to use the word "problem" -------- was
9 associated with Aroclor 1242, MCS 1016
10
was ten times better, I guess.
Ten times
11 less likely to produce that problem than
12 Aroclor 1242?
13 A. Perceived problems. And the problems are
14 still perceived today -------
15 Q. Oh, yes, I understand. We're talking
16 about what was believed at the time of
17 this report.
18 A. Okay. The observation was that -------- that
19 after long periods of time in the
20 environment, if PCB fluids were released,
21
that we could still see some.
Some
22 people perceived t hat as a problem back
23
then.
I don't know that there -------- and
24 this is twenty-five years later, so I
25
don't know that it's a problem.
So I
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1 don't know whether you want to call it a
2 "problem" or not. If you choose to call
3 it a "problem" I'd like to define it.
4 Q. Well, let's ---------- I think you're talking
5 about the situation of environmental
6 persistence, persisting in the
7 environment --------
8 A . Correct.
9 Q. ------- in terms of PCBs persisting in the
10 environment.
11 A . Correct .
12 Q . Just let'1 s call it a "situation" o r 13 whatever you want.
14 A . Let's call it a "s ituation," because
15 persistence is not necessarily a problem
16 Q. I understand.
17 A. The earth persists, so that's a nice
18
thing, you know.
So, I ------- I --------
19 Q. But, in terms of -----------
20 A. I don't think I --------
21 Q . Well-----------
22 A . Okay.
23 Q . When you say that MCS 1016 is at least
24 ten times better - -- and "better" is your
25 word, not my word.
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1
A
Right.
But I don't see myself using
2 "problem" in here either.
3
Q
No.
I understand.
I understand.
But
4 when you say MCS 1016 is at least ten
5 times better than the current product
6 Aroclor 1242, did you mean that MCS 1016
7 was ten times less likely or -------- well,
8 let's say ten times better in terms of
9 not persisting in the environment?
10 What I meant was that through the
11 criteria that we were using in this
12 study------- and I'd have to read this study
13 and delineate the criteria -------- that MCS
14
1016 was ten times better.
It could mean
15 that it had ten times less of something.
16 It could mean that it degraded ten times
17
faster.
It could mean a lot of things.
18 I'd have to read the report to give you
19 --- to reestablish the information and
20 interpret it for you.
21 But from what i t says
22 times better from a n
23 of view?
24 Yes. That's what i t
25
MR. ZIMMER
"Viewpoint," I
I
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 think, is the word used.
2 A Yeah. Environmental viewpoint . Okay.
3 Q Let me refer you t o the second page ,
4 which is number TRAN 0 3 6 7 5 4 .
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q And go back down t O the paragraph above
7
where it says, " Conclusion."
It says,
8 "Some simple arithmetic with the numbers
9 in Table II shows that approximately 75.
10 percent of Aroclor 1254, approximately 10
11 percent of Aroclor 1242, and only
12 approximately 1 percent of MCS 1016 are
13 the refractory PCB isomers that are
14 responsible for the biological build up."
15 What does "refractory" mean?
16 A "Refractory" means difficult.
17 Q Difficult to degrade? 18 A It could be difficult to degrade, yes.
19 Q What did you -------20 A In this context, it probably is.
21 Q This biological buildup, is that --------
22 A It could be difficult to partition into
23
water from fat situation too.
So it's
24 refractory to some process.
25 Q What did you mean by "refractory" in this
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 sentence?
'2 A . Okay. Let me read it. "Refractory"
3 meant ------- I think I meant persistence --------
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. -------- based on the observations that we've
6 made t o da y .
7 Q. I understand. And this reference to
8 biological buildup in that sentence, by
9 that were you referring to the
.
10 accumulation of PCBs, for example, in the
11 fatty tissues of fish and so forth?
12 A. By that I meant that the higher
13 chlorinated PCBs, because of their
14 properties, were preferentially absorbed
15 and concentrated in lipophilic materials.
16 Yes.
17 Q. Is "lipophilic" referring to fatty
18 tissues?
19 A . Yes. That's correct.
20 Q . Fatty tissues of fish and other animals?
21 A . Fatty tissues are in any living organism
22 Q . Sure. Let me refer-you back to the
23 testimony that was given before the EPA,
24 that I believe we introduced as an
25 Exhibit yesterday.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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233
1 A This was before Judge Sweeney?
2
Q
Yes.
Exhibit 317.
And to refer you to
3 page 2862 of the transcript, which is
4 TRAN 028546.
5 A Letmejust --------
6 Q If you look back at the bottom paragraph 7 where it says, "Answer", is that your
8 testimony? After where it says "A" about
9 line 17.
10 A I would say it is.
11
MR . ZIMMER:
I don' t understand th
12
question, rea 11 y
It says,
13 " An s w e r . " T h i s is a passage of his
14 test imony .
15
MR . KASHANI:
11 ' s Dr. Tucker's
16 test imo n y .
17
THE WITNESS:
Yes.
18
MR . ZIMMER:
I mean , do you want
19 him to review i t and make sure --------
20
MR . KASHANI:
No
No .
I--------
21
MR . ZIMME R :
-- i n the context of
22 the question that i t 's correct?
23
MR . KASHANI:
No
I just want to
24 make sure I have the right place in
25 the transcript and this is still Dr.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 Tucker's testimony. '2 A. Yeah. I looked back, and then there 3 seems to be -------- it seems to be continuous 4 from the point at which it shows that I 5 was sworn in. 6 Q. Okay. And the answer presented here, or 7 the answer here or the testimony you gave 8 here reads, quote: "The definition is 9 proposed because we sincerely believe ... 10 that the predominant problem with 11 polychlorinated biphenyls is the 12 persistence of some of the higher 13 chlorinated ones in the sense that if 14 they persist for exceedingly long periods 15 of time and can bioaccumu 1ate, then there 16 is a potential possibility that they 17 could achieve, if they continue to be 18 released, that they could achieve a level 19 in higher organisms that could have a 20 toxic impact." Was this your testimony? 21 A . Yes, sir, 22 Q . When you said "bioaccumulate" do you mean 23 the s ame thing as the phrase "biological
' *5` * 24 buildup" in Exhibit 336?
25 A . Yes.
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1 a. And by the "higher chlorinate d ones," do '2 you mean the PCBs with five o r more
3 chlorines on them?
4 A . Yes.
5 Q And is that the same as the " r e
6 PCB isomers"?
7 A . Yes.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 A. Shall I return Exhibit 317 to the
10 recorder?
11 Q Sure,, Thank you. Yes . D o c t o r, I'm going 12 to refer you back t o another Exhibit as
13 well as long as we ' r e looking at older
14 Exhibits .
15 A. Since we're talking about how I feel
16 about things, and you brought that up in
17 that last testimony in front of the EPA
18 for the Toxic Substance Act routine --------
19 Q. There's no question pending.
20 MR . ZIMMER: Well, if he wants to
21
talk, he 1's entitled t o .
You don't
22 have the ability to cut him off, so
23 ------- Doctor, if you feel you need to
24
add something to it, you may.
I
25 would prefer that you wait for a
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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236
1 question, though.
'2 A . Yeah. Okay.
3 Q Turn back to Exhibit -------
4
MR. ZIMMER
Don't feel chagrined
5 about makin g comments that you feel 6 are necessary to augment your
7 testimony.
8 Q . Let' s move on. We have very limited
9 time . We go on t o Exhibit -- - back to.
10
3 2 7.
Yesterday you mentioned that--------I
11 believe you mentioned that you had no
12 specific recollection of this Exhibit.
13 This is Exhibit 377. Do you have any
14 general recollection of this document?
15 A . Yeah. I have a general recollection of
16 the document. And -------- yes.
17 Q Do you remember what context you might
18 have prepared this document or prepared
19 this draft?
20 MR. ZIMMER: He didn't
21 that he did prepare it.
22 A . General context.
23 Q Well, what's the substance of your
24 general recollection?
25 A . Of this?
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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237
1 Q . Yes.
2 A. That it had to do with research that I
3 was working for on a Monsanto product
4 while I worked for Monsanto. And it
5 talks about a lot of things that -------- some
6 of which we were directly involved with.
7 Q. I'm going to refer you to a sentence on
8 page three which is TRAN 023492.
9 A. Okay. Are you going to give me a copy of
10 it to look at?
11 Q. Okay. Sure. Since I don't have a copy,
12 could you please read that --------
13 A. Oh, here I'm sorry.
14 Q. Could you be kind enough to read that --------
15 that first full paragraph?
16 A. Which one? This one that starts
17 "Unfortunately"?
18 Q . Yes.
19 A. Okay. "Unfortunately the solution to the
20 problem will initially involve our
21 withdrawal of Aroclor 1254 and 1260 from
22 the market place. Followed by a
23 concerted effort to prove that Aroclor
24
1242 is biodegradable.
If we can prove
25 that Aroclor 1242 is biodegradable then
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043343
238
1 with sufficient care the manufacture and
2
use of this material can continue.
The
3 clearance of Aroclor 1242 will in turn
4 clear materials such as 1221, 1232, etc.
5 and possibly even Aroclor 1248."
6 Q Okay. Do you recall writing that? 7 A I don't recall specifically writing that,
8 no .
9 Q Do you have a general recollection of 10 writing something like that?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And do you have that general recollection 13 in the context of the time of this
14 document, which appears to be October or
15 December, 1969?
16 A I'm sorry.
17 Q October or November, 1969?
18
A
I can't argue with the date.
I don't
19
recollect it specifically.
I don't know
20 what I was doing in 1969 specifically --------
21
that specifically.
I apologize for my
22 inability to do that, but I just don't.
23 Q The second sentence what you read, 24 mentions, quote, "A concerted effort to
25 prove that Aroclor 1242 is
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043344
239
1 biodegradable." Do you recall that
2 effort taking place?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Then the next sentence reads, "If we can
5 prove that Aroclor 1242 is biodegradable,
6 then with sufficient care, the
7 manufacture and use of this material can
8 continue." Do you recall proving that
9 Aroclor 1242 was biodegradable?
10 A. Ye s .
11 Q. How did you do that?
12 A. Through the semicontinuous activated
13 sludge studies, through the River
14 Die-away studies, through all the efforts
15 that we incurred.
16 Q. Are these --------
17 A . We--------
18 Q. Are these the studies that we looked at
19 yesterday?
20 A . Some of them, yes.
21 Q You mentioned you couldn't recall any
22 other studies than -------- o t h e r than what
23
looked at.
Do you now r e c a 11 studies
24 other than what we looked at -------
25 A . No .
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043345
240
1 Q. ------- in terms of those documents?
'2 A. I -------- I'm ------- that's a very convoluted
3
question.
Can you ask that in a more
4 direct fashion, please, so I can
5 understand what I'm answering?
6 Q. Yesterday, I showed you Exhibits --------
7 A. If I had a tail I'd feel like I was being
8 jerked around by that question, very
9 frankly, so since I'm attempting to be as
10 honest and as straightforward as
11 possible, I'd appreciate it if you could
12 clarify that question.
13 Q. Yesterday, I showed you Exhibits 328 and
14 329 -------- and, I'm sorry, 330 -------- and I
15 asked you if you remembered any
16 biodegradation studies other than the
17 studies that are reflected in these
18 Exhibits, and you said, "No, I don't
19 recall." Could you show me which of
20 these studies is a reference in these
21 documents, as you said, proved that --------
22 proved that Aroclor 1242 is
23 biodegradable?
24
MR. ZIMMER:
If it is indeed in one
25 of these studies.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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241
1 MR. KASHANI: But he said he
'2 doesn't recall any other.
3
MR. ZIMMER:
Right.
Does he have
4 to recall all of them? Does he get
5 penalty points for not remembering
6 every single piece of paper that was
7 - generated?
8 A. This is ridiculous. I published an
9 article in a peer group--------peer revie w,
10 journal that clearly indicated that
11 Aroclor 1242 was biodegradable.
12 Q. What wa s-------
13 A. The information was presented as part of
14 the presentation to the President's
15 Council on Environmental Quality
16 Interdisciplinary Group as being
17 degradable. Now you're asking me to look
18 back at a segmented time frame, 1969, I
19 believe, December to February of 1970, on
20 three reports, which may or may not be
21 complete renditions of what was going on
22 at that point in time, and you're asking
23 me to judge from that information whether
24
or not Aroclor 1242 is degradable.
I
25 don't understand that.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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242
1 Q. You said that at some point you proved
*2 that Aroc'lor 1242 was biodegradable.
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Do you recall the study or studies that
5 proved that Aroclor 1242 is
6 biodegradable?
7 A . Yes.
8 Q. Which studies were those?
9 A. They are published. The S e m i c o n t i n u o u s
10 Activated Sludge study showed that
11 Aroclor 1242 biodegraded at roughly about
12 20 percent of the material every
13 forty-eight hours.
14 Q. When was that study published?
15 A . I don't know. I ' d have to look in the
16
record.
But I can look.
It would have
17
to be, probably i n the 1970s.
18 Q Would it be the -- after 1972?
19 A . Could be. I'd have to look.
20 Q. Do you remember when the work was
21 performed?
22 A. Not really.
23 Q. Specifically, prior to that date of
24 publication? A year prior, two years
25 prior.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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243
1 A. I don't remember that specifically.
2 Q. Was the work performed before 1970?
3 A. I just said I don't remember that
4 specifically.
5 Q. And did the studies show that all of the
6 PCBs in Aroclor 1242 degraded or the
7 lower chlorinated PCBs?
8 A. What the study demonstrated was that to
9 one degree or another, the degradation
10 rate was proportional to the degree of
11 chlorination, so what we were able to
12 observe during the time frame of the
13 study, was that the lower chlorinated
14 materials degraded more rapidly than the
15
higher chlorinated materials.
During the
16 time frame of the study, we were unable
17 to observe any significant degradation on
18 those things that we began to call
19 isomers.
20 Q. And these refractory isomers are the PCBs
21 with five or more chlorines?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. So, during the course of the study, you
24 saw that the PCBs in Aroclor 1242, which
25 had four or fewer chlorines were
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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244
1 degrading?
'2 A. Correct.
3 Q. But that the PCBs in Aroclor 1242, the
4 refractory PCBs in Aroclor 1242 were not
5 degrading over the course of your study?
6 A. During the time frame observed, that's
7 correct.
8 Q. And were these the refractory isomers
9
that were reflected in Exhibit Three
.
10 Thirty-six as being about 10 percent of
11 Aroclor 1242?
12 A. Right. "Refractory" is a cute scientific
13 word for slow.
14 Q. So, your study that you were just
15 describing, the study that was published
16 in the mid-seventies that you described,
17 during the course of the work that led to
18 that study and led to that paper,
19 approximately 10 percent of the PCBs in
20 Aroclor 1242 were not observed to
21 degrade; is that correct?
22 A. I don't know that to be correct to that
23 level of detail.
24 Q. Well -------
25 A. I stated what I knew earlier in answers
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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245
1 to questions you just asked me.
2 Q. So, you saw that the refractory isomers
3 were not degrading during the course of
4 your study?
5 A . That's correct.
6 Q. And this is a study that you referred to
7 earlier as proving that Aroclor 1242 is
8 biodegradable?
9 A. Correct.
10
Q. Were there anystudies
that you
can
11 recall at any time which showed a greater
12 degree of biodegradability or a greater
13 percentage of biodegradabi1ity than
14 reflected in this study?
15
A. This study showed acertain
amount of
16 biodegradability.
17 MR. ZIMMER: Do you have the study
18 so that we can --------
19
MR. KASHANI:
Unfortunately, we
20 don't.
21
MR. ZIMMER:
Okay.
22
MR. KASHANI:
It has not been
23 produced to us.
24 MR. ZIMMER: That's not correct --------
25
THE WITNESS:
It's in the open
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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246
1
literature.
I mean --------
2 MR. KASHANI: And also, it's
3 somewhat later than the time period
4 of this case.
5 Q. But in any case, do you recall any
6 studies that showed a greater degree of
7 biodegradabi1ity of Aroclor 1242 than
8 reflected in that study?
9 A. Do I recall any studies that show any
10 greater degradability than shown in the
11 published work?
12 Q . Yes.
13
A. Not specifically.
Which doesn't preclude
14 that it didn't occur.
15 MR. KASHANI: Let's take a break.
16 (OFF RECORD)
17 Q. I'm going to refer you back to the
18 deposition from the Outboard Marine case.
19 Let me re fer you to page 103 -- --
20 beginning at page 103, and cont inuing to
21
page 105.
And what I'd like to do is
22 introduce the cover page, page 3 and the
23 signature page, the certificate --
24 A . Uh-huh (a ffirmative)
--25 Q . -------- along with those pages as -
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 MR. KASHAN I: Well, let's start
'2 with introducing the cover page and
3 signature page and the notary's
4
signature as an Exhibit.
Just call
5 this the Exhibit next in order.
6 (Thereupon the Court Reporter
7 marked the pertinent document as
8 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 337-A)
9 Q. And then let's go to pages 103 to 105, ..
10 beginning on page 103, where it --------
11 there's a question down near the bottom
12 of the page that says, "Well, you had run
13 enough known samples to convince you that
14 you could find what you knew was there by
15 mid-1969, correct?" and going on to page
16 105, ending with your answer in the
17 middle of page 105, which reads, "Many of
18 them were, yes. We had a practice, as we
19 pulled up notebooks periodically, these
20 would go to the library, if I remember
21 correctly, for microfilming and things of 22 that sort, and then we would get them
23
back and retain them ourselves.
But
-v *
24
everything was kept.
It was a general
25
practice to retain everything."
I'd like
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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248
1 for you to read over that testimony
"2 starting with that indicated page on 103
3 and going to page 105.
4 A. (Witness complies with request) .
5 MR. KASHANI: And we'll introduce
6 that portion as the next Exhibit.
7 (Thereupon the Court Reporter
8 marked the pertinent document as
9 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 3 3 8 - A) ,
10 Q. Do you recall -------
11 A. Can I have the first one that was
12 introduced as an Exhibit to make sure
13 we're talking about the same document?
14 It's just this several hundred page
15
document.
(Witness peruses document).
16 Okay.
17 Q. Do you recall giving that testimony?
18 A. I recall giving the testimony.
19 Q. It's the testimony that I've indicated
20 beginning on the question on page 103
21 that I read and ending with your answer
22 on page 105, which I read. Was that
23 testimony true and accurate?
24 A . Yes-.
25 Q. This Outboard Marine deposition was taken
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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249
1
about ten years ago.
Do you know today
2 ------- let me go back a second. Page 105 it
3
refers to lab notebooks.
As you sit here
4 today, do you know where those lab
5 notebooks might be or if Monsanto kept
6 those?
7 A. I don't know where they might be, and I
8 don't know if Monsanto kept those.
9 Q. Thank you. I refer you to testimony
10 beginning on page 66 of the deposition,
11 and beginning with the point -------- the
12 question which reads, "Did you do any
13 other type of sampling or analyses
14 besides water and sediment?" and going to
15 your answer on page 68 where the question
16 asked is, "Those were the first
17 environmental samples that you ran?",
18
question mark.
And your answer is,
19
"Yes."
I wonder if you could read that
20 portion, beginning with the question on
21 page 66 and going to your answer on page
22 68 .
23 Do you want me to read that aloud?
24
No ,.
You don't have to read it aloud
25 A. Just read it?
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 Q. Yes.
2
MR.- KASHANI:
I want to mark this
3 as Exhibit next in line.
4 (OFF RECORD)
5 (While off the record the Court
6 Reporter marked the pertinent
7 . document as PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT
8 NUMBER THREE 339-A.)
9 A. Okay. I've completed reading it.
10 Q. Again, with reference to the testimony
11 that I delineated from the question on
12 page 66 to the answer on page 68, do you
13 recall giving that testimony?
14 A. Not specifically.
15 Q. Was that testimony true and accurate?
16 A. I think, to the best of my recollection,
17
it was.
I was under oath at the time
18 that it was taken.
19 Q. Do you recall the fish samples that are
20 mentioned in this testimony?
21 A . Nope.
22 Q. Page 67, there's an- answer that refers to
23 ------- the answer is down near the middle of
24 the page. There's a question first that
25 reads, "Why would you find higher levels
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'2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22
23 24 25
251
in fish?"
And your answer was, "The
reason that eventually came out of it was
a little thing called bioaccumulation."
Is that bioaccumu 1 ation referring to the
biological buildup of PCBs in fatty
tissues?
A. It refers to the selective partitioning
of low levels of material from water into
an organism's lipid----------lipid materials..
And that's called, I think,
bioaccumu 1 ation .
At least it's kind of
like my definition of it.
Q.
In the context of this testimony,
is that
referring to PCBs traveling and being
collected in the fatty tissues of fish?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Thank you.
Dr. Tucker, do you remember a
project of getting samples from some of
Monsanto's customers, from their plants,
to analyze for PCB content?
A. Yes, sir.
Q.
Do you remember who worked on that project?
A. Not specifically.
Q.
Do you remember when that project began?
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13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22
23 24 25
252
A.
No, sir.
Q.
Do you remember the purpose of that project?
A.
I think there were ----------- not specifically
---------- there were many purposes, probably.
Q.
Do you remembergenerally any of
those
purposes?
A.
The only thing I recollect was that there
-
werethere was
an interest to see o u r
own customers' operations where they were
using the material to determine what was
there, and I seem to recall in one case
that there were some sedimentation ponds
that had fluids
in the bottomof them,
and they wanted to reclaim and/or develop
ways for reclaiming and/or recovering
these materials and recycling them.
Q.
Do you recall which customer that was
with the ponds?
A. Not specifically.
Q. Let me refer you to a portion of your
deposition starting on page 86 and going
to page 87.
MR. KASHAN I :
Mark this Exhibit.
(Thereupon the Court Reporter
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2
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10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22
23 24 25
253
marked the pertinent document as
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 340-A).
Q I refer you to page 86 beginning about
mid-way down the page where it says,
"Question:
Was there a project set up
within Monsanto to provide you with
samples for analyses from customers?"
And your answer was, "Yes."
And then
going to page 87, where your answer -----------
or where the question is, "So you were
provided with the samples he took and you
analyzed those samples for PCBs as part
of your overall assignment to confirm
that PCBs were in the environment?"
And
you answered, "Yes."
I'd like you to
read that portion, please.
A
Okay.
I've read it.
Q Do you recall giving that testimony? A Not that ---------- not specifically I recall
giving the testimony.
Q
All right.
Was the testimony I ' v e
indicated from that portion on page 8 6 to
the portion on page 87 true and accurate?
I was under oath at the time I said these
things, so, I would assume that i t was.
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22
23 24 25
254
Q Do you A . T O the
truthful and accurate.
Q.
Does this refresh any recollection of who might have been involved in the sampling
for you?
A.
Yeah.
Don Pogue.
I recall Don Pogue
being involved in the project.
Q.Whowashe?
..
A. Well, starting with the most simple, I
believe he was an employee ---------- Monsanto
employee.
I believe he was in the
marketing and sales or technical customer
interfacing area, to the best of my
recollection .
Q.
How did Don Pogue go about collecting
these samples, if you know?
MR. ZIMMER:
Calls for speculation.
A.
I don't know.
Q. Did you ever deal directly with any of
the customers in the context of these
samples, or obtaining these samples?
A.
It wasn't ------------ that was not the way that
we did that, no.
Q.
Well, how was it done?
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255
A.
In general, it was
donethrough
an
interface' that dealt with the customer.
Q.
What do
you mean by "interface"?
A.
Well, a
project manager like Don Pogue
might be considered a project manager.
In this particular instance, as I recall,
it was his job to contact the customers
and ---------- and I don't know which customers
or how they selected them.
I wasn't
.
involved in that.
But to contact them
make arrangements to get the samples, get
them to the laboratory, get us to analyze
them.
We'd analyze them and provide the
information back to them, and he, in
turn, would then provide it to the
customer.
That's the way it worked.
Q.
You mean you pr o-v ided the information
back to Don Pogue or some equivalent ----------
A.
Whoever.
Q.
---------- Monsanto employee?
A. Q.
Correct. And the information would flow on from
there?
A.
Correct. That's
a typical project
manager type approach that's taken for
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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256
most t h i n g s ,
Q Do you recall if the customers were told that on e of the purposes for taking the samples was with an idea of reclamation
efforts?
A. I don't recall ----------- I have no knowledge that customers werespecifically told
that.
I knew that that was part of it.
Q. Did you personally ever notify any
customers that they had PCBs in samples
collected from their facilities?
A . No .
MR. ZIMMER:
Lacks foundation.
Why would he?
He hasn't told you he
had any customer contact.
I marvel
at the time we've spent on things
like that that are outside of the
Witness' area.
A. For the record, my job was not to contact
customers or interface with them.
MR, ZIMMER:
He knows that. Just
answer the question.
Q.
Do
you recall a meeting with
representatives from NCR concerning their
use of PCBs that took place about 1970?
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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257
A. Q.
No, I don't.
I refer you
to the Exhibit next in order
(Thereupon the Court Reporter
marked the pertinent document as
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 341-A).
Q.
This is Exhibit 341, and I ask you to
review that.
A.
(Witness complies with request).
..
Q.
It's a one page.
I gave you two copies.
A.
Oh.
Okay.
I've reviewed it.
Q.
Do you have any general recollection of
this document?
A.
No, sir.
Q.
Does this trigger any recollection of a
meeting with representatives from NCR?
A. No, sir.
Q.
What about the next Exhibit?
MR. KASHANI:
Mark that 342,
please .
(Thereupon the Court Reporter
marked the pertinent document as
PLAINTIFF'S
EXHIBIT
NUMBER
342-A).
-5' *
Q.
Do you recall this document?
A. No, sir.
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258
Q.
Does this trigger any recollection of a
visit with NCR?
A. Q.
No, sir.
Turning to the second page of this
document.
This is at page TRAN 085271.
Near the top, under the heading,
"Objectives" Number 1.
"Review the
current state of knowledge in areas of toxicology, biodegradation and analysis.
of ---------- I believe that's ---------- MIPB, HB-40,
and Aroclor 1242."
Do you know what
"MIPB" means?
A.
Yes.
Q. A.
What is that? What does it mean?
Q. A.
Yes. It means monoisopropy1 biphenyl.
Q. Do you know ---------- was that a proposed replacement product for NCR, to your
knowledge ?
A, Q.
Yes. Why was it proposed' as a replacement?
A.
For NCR?
Q. A.
Yes. Because it did the same job that Aroclor
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21
22 23 24 25
259
Q. A. Q. A.
Q.
A. Q. A.
Q. A.
Q. A. Q. A. Q.
1242 did. Was NCR using Aroclor 1242 previously?
I believe that has been documented, yes. And what were they using it for?
As an encapsulation fluid for carbonless
carbon paper. Are these those triplicate forms and
quadruplicate forms?
Theycanbe,yes.
And what was HB-40? I believe HB-40 stood for 40 percent hydrogenated biphenyl.
What does that mean, "hydrogenated"?
It means that biphenyl has been reacted with hydrogen such that it's taken up 40
percent of the theoretical amount that it could take up if it were completely
hydrogenated. Do either MIBP or HB-40 contain chlorine?
No . Are either of them PCBs?
No .
Do you recall if NCR ever substituted
another product for Aroclor 1242 in its
application?
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A.
I believe they did, but I don't recall it
specifically.
Q.
Do you remember if it was HB-40?
A.
As I said, I don't recall it
specifically.
Q.
Did you have any involvement in any
discussions at Monsanto pertaining to
NCR's use of Aroclor 1242 and the possible substitution of another produ c.t
for Aroclor 1242?
A.
Go through that question again, please?
Q. Do yourecall any discussions you had
with individuals at Monsanto regarding
NCR's use of Aroclor 1242 or NCR's
substitution of another product for
Aroclor 1242?
A.
No .
Q.
Do you know why NCR substituted another
A.
product for Aroclor 1242? I do not know why NCR did.
Q.
Do you
recall a meeting that took place
in 1970 with representatives from General
Electric?
A. Q.
Vaguely. Let me show you the Exhibit.
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261
A.
Q. A. Q.
A. Q. A. Q
A. Q.
(Thereupon the Court Reporter
marked the pertinent document as
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 343-A). If it's the one that I recall vaguely,
and I can explain to you why it was
vaguely. Was there more than one meeting with
General Electric?
I haven't the faintest.
There could have
been. (Witness peruses document).
I refer you to the Exhibit next in order,
Exhibit 343, and ask you to review that,
and then ask you if that refreshes your
recollection about meeting with General
Electric.
(Witness peruses document).
Yes, this is
the meeting that I vaguely remember.
This meeting took place in January of
1970?
Yes. Did representatives of Gene r a 1 Electric come to St. Louis to meet w i t h Monsanto representatives ?
It indicates that they did.
Do you recall the meeting was in St .
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262
Louis?
A.
No, I don't.
Q.
Do you recall generally what was
A.
discussed at the meeting?
Let
me explain why I recall the meeting.
I recall Mr. Edward L. Raab from General Electric, and I recall him slamming his
fist on the table and telling us that if
we quit
manufacturing PCBs,they'd sue u.s .
Q.
Do you know what General Electric used
PCBs for?
A. Q.
Ye s . What did they use PCBs for?
A.
They used them as a dielectric fluid.
Q.
Is that
in capacitors and transformers?
A. Q.
Yes. Do you recall ----------- I'm referring you to
the
page two of this Exhibit at TRAN
023510 under the heading of C.
Biodegradeabi1ity of PCBs.
The second
sentence mentions, "Drs. Richard, Keller
and
Tucker discussed b i odegradeabi1ity
studies by Monsanto at" ---------- is that Ru abon ?
'
A.
Ruabon.
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2 63
Q. A. Q.
A. Q.
A. Q.
Ru abo n ?
R u ab o n . Ruabon.
That's spelled R-u-a-b-o-n ----------
"and elsewhere." discussions?
Do you recall those
Not specifically.
Do you recall any discussions at this
meeting about the biodegradabi1ity of
Aroclor 1 2 4 2 ? Not specifically.
..
Let me point out for the record that
there's a mark ---------- I think there's a mark on your copy ---------- it may not have come
out.
It's in pencil.
It's very light
---------- on page two.
That mark is not part
of the Exhibit, and I will provide a clean Exhibit for the court reporter.
There's some handwriting up on top of
page two.
That is not part of the
Exhibit, and that will be removed.
That
was----------
MR . ZIMMER:
It's the copy that
he ' s been s ho wn, so i t 's going to
stay in the Exhibit
MR . KASHAN I :
Well , I can show you
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264
Q.
A. Q. A. Q.
an Exhibit without that, or one that,
we----------
MR . ZIMMER: but --
Well , you can do that,
MR . KASHANI::
Why don ' t we use this
Exhibit?
MR : ZIMMER:
-- this one is going
t o stay in there as well because
it ' s the one that he referred to.
MR . KASHANI::
Let ' s use that one.
MR . ZIMMER:
No .
This one's
staying in the record.
You can add
another one if you want, but it's up
to you what you want to show him.
That one also has it.
MR. KASHANI:
This one also has it
too, so ----------
Well, does that mark affect in any way
your understanding of this Exhibit or
your recollection of the meeting?
Not really.
Does it mean anything to you?
No .
Were there any meetings at Monsanto prior
to the General Electric meeting to
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265
discuss what would be discussed at the
General Electric meeting?
A. I don't recall any.
Q.
I'll show you Exhibit ---------- the next in
order, by the way, do you recognize this
Exhibit, xhibit Three 343?
A. Q.
No. Do you know if Exhibit 343 reflects what
took place at the General Electric
meeting?
A.
I couldn't swear to it, no.
MR. KASHANI:
I'm entering the next
Exhibit.
That will be 344.
(Thereupon the Court Reporter
marked the pertinent document as
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 344-A).
Q.
Do you recognize this document?
A.
No, sir.
Q.
Do you recognize the handwriting?
A.
No, sir.
Q. Does this document trigger or refresh any
recollection of a possible meeting prior
to the General Electric meeting to
discuss topics for the General Electric
meeting?
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A . No, sir.
(Thereupon the Court Reporter marked the pertinent document as
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 345-A).
Q.
I'll show you one last Exhibit.
A. Q.
Okay. It's Exhibit 345.
Do you recognize this
do cument ?
A.
No , s i r .
_
Q.
Does this document trigger any further recollection of what was discussed at the
General Electric meeting ----------
A. No, sir.
Q.
---------- of January, 1970?
Do you recall
which Aroclors General Electric used
predominantly?
A. No, sir. I don't.
Q.
Was Aroclor 1242 used in capacitors ----------
used in dielectric applications?
A.
Was the question both or one or the
other?
Q.
Let's start with dielectric applications.
A . Yes.
Q.
Was it used in capacitors?
A.
I believe
so.
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267
Q.
Was it used in transformers?
A. Q.
Yes. Did Westinghouse use Aroclor 1242?
A.
They used polychlorinated biphenyls.
I
can't remember for sure, but it seems to
me that Westinghouse had its own trade
name and made up their own fluids.
Q.
Was that Interteen?
A. That seems-----------that would
yeah.
Since you brought it up, that sounds like
what the name was, Interteen.
Q.
And do you know what Aroclors or PCBs
went into Interteen?
A.
I think it depended upon the application.
It depended upon whether the unit was
going to go in a very cold climate or a
very warm climate.
The whole ---------- the
whole reason these are called dielectric
fluids was because they stayed fluid, and
the fluidicity of the material was of
particular importance.
So, for example,
if they were going to use it in Alaska
where it was very cold, they would use a
lower chlorinated material ---------- to the
extent they could safely ---------- to keep it
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Q. A.
Q. A.
Q.
fluid.
I'm sorry ---------- a more chlorinated?
Lower chlorinated material to the extent
that they could, because the chlorine to
hydrogen ratio determined its safety from
an explosive, fire viewpoint.
Okay. So it depended ----------
MR. KASHANI:
Let's take a break.,
(OFF RECORD)
Dr. Tucker, we had ----------
MR. KASHANI: ---------- and counsel, we had
inadvertently produced copies ----------
the copy of Exhibit 343 that we
produced inadvertently had some
marks on the second page.
That
production was inadvertent, and we
did not mean to waive any rights by
producing that.
In fact, my copy,
unfortunately, did not contain those
marks which is why the production
occurred. That's why I was unaware
of it.
I'd like to introduce
another Exhibit and mark it Exhibit
next in order ----------
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Q.
MR . ZIMMER:
You can substitute it
i f you like.
I don't really care.
MR . KASHANI::
Okay.
MR . ZIMMER:
If you want, instead
o f 343. That'1s fine.
MR . KASHANI::
Okay.
Let's
. substitute this document instead of
Exhibit 343.
This document is in
all respects identical to Exhibit
3 4 3 except
-- I have a----------let me
go back.
I have a document which is
in all respects identical to Exhibit
343 except it does not contain the
marks that were put on later. document I have in my hand is
This
identical to what Monsanto produced
to us, and I would like to
substitute this document for the
existing Exhibit 343, and this
document will become Exhibit 343.
MR. ZIMMER:
That's fine.
See, I'm
not such a bad guy.
Dr. Tucker, I'm going to show you the
Exhibit next in order, Exhibit 345 ----------
346, I'm sorry ----------
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(Thereupon the Court Reporter
marked the pertinent document as
Q.
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 346-A). ---------- and ask you if you recognize this
document?
A. Q.
No, sir. This is a document that's been provided
by Monsanto.
It appears to be an
organizational chart, dated June 1, 1972.
I wonder if you recognize some of the
names and relationships on the chart?
A.
Are you asking me if I recognize ---------- is
that a question yet?
Q.
Yes.
Do you recognize any of the names
A. Q
A. Q. A.
Q
Yes.
----------or
relationships on the chart?
Do
you recognize Mr. C. W. Roos, who is
listed at the top?
Yes, I do .
Who is he ?
He was the Director- of Technology
P 1 a n n i ng and Evaluat ion as it says here
Did he have anything to do with PCB s or
functional fluids?
Start with PCBs
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A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.
Q
Would you define anything to do with ----------
Would be involved in the manufacture or testing or production.
No, sir.
What was his job?
He was Director of Technology Planning
and Evaluation.
What did that mean? It meant that the following groups that
are shown there reported to him.
He was
really ---------- let's see ---------- let me try to
remember.
He had the ---------- the analytical
or applied sciences people reported to
him, which was a, you know, support ----------
service support group.
He had process
technology group , which, again, was a
service support group and that kind o f
routine.
It's a position much like mine
right now where I'm Director of
Analytical Programs for Clemson Technical
Center.
I mean, I don't know what kind
of level of detaile d explanation you want
in terms of what the job entails or
entailed.
Do you know when he joined Monsanto?
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A. Q A. Q. A. Q
A. Q A. Q. A. Q
A
No, si r .
Was he with Mons anto in 1967?
I don' t know. Ab out 1968, 1969 ? I don ' t know. If you go to the first column on the left. you have 1 isted T.M. Patrick.
Right.
Do you remember him?
Yes.
I re me mb e r Tracy Patrick.
Who w a s he?
He was Bob Kelle r ' s boss. Did he have any involvement with PCBs
MR. ZIMMER :
I'm sorry.
Which
f rame are we talking about?
As
the date of this ----------
MR. KASHANI:
During the time that
-- let's define the date as between
1968 and ----------- 1967 and 1972.
MR. ZIMMER:
All right.
Thank you.
I have problems with --- still have
problems with the involvement.
Obviously, he was my boss' boss, and I
worked on PCBs.
So, if that's
involvement, then I would agree to your
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stipulation he had involvement.
But, I
mean, I don't understand the question.
If I answer "yes" is ---------- I really don't
understand the question.
What do you
Q.
mean by "involvement"? Did you have any discussions with him concerning your work with PCBs?
A. Q.
No . Did you ever report to him or send memos
to him, to your knowledge?
A.
No .
Q.
What about Mr. Marchand, O.J. Marchand,
the Facilities Supervisor?
Do you know
him?
Or did you know him?
A. Q. A.
Yes. What was his job? Facilities Supervisor.
Q.
Was he in charge of the lab?
A.
Physical building, yes.
Q. Was he in charge of obtaining equipment?
A.
No .
Q.
Did he have any role in your obtaining
equipment for your PCB work?
A.
He may have.
Q.
Do you know what that role might have
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A.
been? It could have been as simple as opening
the door so that they could be delivered.
I mean, he was in charge
of the physical
facilities, so you'd have to be more
specific in terms of what kind of a role
you're talking about.
Q.
Did he have to authorize a requisition or
an expenditure ----------
.
A. I don't know whether he was in the
authorization trail.
I don't recall.
Q.
Dr. Keller is ----------- explored that.
And
then we have group leaders.
What are
A.
group leaders? Group leaders are individuals that lead
groups of people that are given certain
types of assignments.
Q. You are listed here as a group leader; is
that correct?
A. Q.
Yes. When did you become a group leader?
A.
I believe I commented earlier, about
three years after I joined the company,
but I don't recall exactly.
Q.
That would have been about 1970?
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A.
Well, it ---------- well, let's see ---------- let's
see, I think we've established that I
joined the company sometime
in the last
quarter of 1967, so three years from that, it could ---------- it could be 1970.
Q.
Did your group have a name?
A.
Analytical chemistry group.
Q.
Do you recall which people in that group
were involved in the PCB work you were ...
doing?
A.
Probably most all of them.
Q.
Do you know how many people were in the
group?
A.
Not specifically, no.
Q.
Do you recall any names?
A.
I recalled some of those names earlier.
for you
Q.
That was a Mr. ----------- Litsch -------------- was that
A.
Litschgi.
Q.
Litschgi?
A. Right.
Q.
Do you know how to spell that?
A.
L-i-t-s-c-h-g-i.
Q. And who else?
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A. Q.
Bill Meaz. Mr. Mieuer?
A.
Jim Mieuer was not in my group.
He was
in M.W. Dietrich's group, which was the
Q.
spectroscopy group. Did the spectroscopy group have any involvement with the PCB work?
A. Q.
Yes. And Mr. Dietrich was in charge ----------- Dr.
Dietrich or Mr. Dietrich?
A. Doctor.
Q.
Was he in charge of that group?
A. Q.
Yes. Do you know who worked for him or under
A.
him? Jim Mieuer was one ofthem.
Bernie
Katlowski, Ozzie Knast.
Ozzie actually
worked for me some too, now, that I
recall.
Gary Mappes
---------- those are names
that come ---------- that come to me in
recollection.
Q.
Do you know ifany of these gentlemen
are
still at Monsanto?
A.
Let's see.
Not
specifically.
Q.
What about the gentlemenyou mentioned
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277
earlier that was working in your group,
if they are still at Monsanto?
A.
Jerry Litschgi is still at Monsanto.
Bill Meaz was at Monsanto, but last I
heard, he had muscular dystrophy, and I don't know whether he is still with them.
Another name that's just been sparked up
---------- Bob Kaley worked for me too.
Q.
How do you spell that?
A. Q.
A.
K-a-l-e-y.
What did Mr. Emery do ?
E.M. Emery, or if
it's Dr. Emery?
You know. I don't r emember if it's Doctor
or not.
I think it was,.
Ed Emery was
the group leader of the gas
Q.
chromatography group. Did he have involvement with the PCB
work?
A. Q.
Yes. What did he do with the PCBs?
A. His involvement with the PCBs, as I
recollect, was mainly from a product
viewpoint, in terms of composition, those
kinds of things.
Q.
Did he analyze Aroclors for composition?
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A. Q.
Yes. Was he the fellow who analyzed, or did he
do any analyses of Aroclors for PCB composition in terms of number of isomers and isomers in the ----------
A.
Ed was a group
leader. It was doubtful
he did any analysis himself.
Q.
Doyou know
if he supervised work that
in v o1v e d determining the isomers of
A. Q.
Aroclors? He may have. What about Mr. ---------- is that Fowler?
A. Q.
Lou Fowler. Lou Fowler? What
was hisrole?
A.
Lou Fowler was a group leader of what we
would call the process instrumentation
Q.
group. What is that?
A.
When you have a process that's manufacturing something, sometimes you
dedicate on-line instrumentation that
continuously monitors that process and
analyzes a stream for something.
That's,
you know, a fairly simplified definition
of what a process ----------- in-line process
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279
monitor is.
Q.
Was Mr. Fowler or his group involved in
any way in monitoring the process for
production of Aroclors?
A. Q.
Not to my knowledge. Do you know if Dr. Dietrich or Dr. Emery or Mr. Fowler or Dr. Fowler are still at
A.
Monsanto? I think Ed's retired ---------- Emery.
Fowler,
I think, died, and Dietrich may or may
not be at Monsanto.
But I don't know
Q.
specifically that any of them are. Do you know where they might be living?
A . No, sir. Q. Who is ---------- is that Hinchen under Senior
Research Specialist?
A.
Yes.
Q. A.
Who is he? He was Senior Research Specialist.
He
was a statistician.
Q.
Did he work with one of the groups listed
A.
above? He worked with all of them.
He worked
for Keller.
Q.
What did he do?
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A.
He was a statistician.
He would develop
statistical models.
He would look at
assemblies of information and analyze
them from a statistical viewpoint to talk about how true, how accurate, how precise
---------- you know, in general, to numerically
describe the properties of assemblies of
numbers.
That's what a statistician
does.
.
Q. Did he have any involvement with the PCB
work?
A.
Yes, he did.
Q.
Did he determine confidence levels for
any of that work?
A.
Yes, he did.
Q.
And by that, I mean did he analyze your
data from the PCB work and determine how
confident you could be that that data was
accurate?
That might not be a correct
A. Q.
A.
No .
----------description.
W h at did you understand
when I said" did he determine confidence
levels"? Confidence levels, relative to the
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281
Q A.
Q. A. Q. A.
question that you asked, seemed to
indicate to me how true numbers and environmental samples were that, we
measured and he did not do that. What did he do, then. with respect to
PCB work? He helped us make sense of the tissue
residue information that we obtained from
Industrial Bio-Test, and the avian,
.
mammalian,
and aquatic exposures studies
that we conducted to try to ferret out
what was going on with PCBs in those
types of biological systems.
You mean that he would help determine
whether you were actually detecting PCBs
in the tissues?
It could-be loosely interpreted as that,
but that wasn't the focus.
And what was the focus?
The focus was to create pharmacokinetic
models that described how PCB ---------- that
did a material balan ce in terms of PCBs
in, PCBs out and where within the system
with the box being the animal the PCBs
would go.
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Q So, he helped in the determination of how much PCB remained in the animal?
A Correct.
Q Do you know where he is today? A No, sir.
Q Is that John Hinchen? A I believe it's Jack.
Q Hinchen?
A
Hinchen; right.
As it's spelled there.
H-i-n-c-h-e-n.
Q This left column has individuals and titles listed in it in sort of order.
Does that order, to your knowledge,
accurately reflect the sort of pecking order, or the order in which people
reported to other people?
A
No.
I think it's ---------- well, it depends.
Q I mean, for example, did Mr. Marchand report to Mr. Patrick?
A Q.
Yes. Did Dr. Keller report to Mr. Marchand?
A.
No .
Q.
He reported to Mr. Patrick?
A. Q.
Ye s . And did the group leaders report to Dr.
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A.
Q.
A.
Q
A.
Q.
A.
Q
A.
Q.
A.
Q
A. Q,
A. Q. A.
Q.
Keller?
Yes.
And Mr. Hinchen reported to the group
leaders --
No .
----------and
to Dr. Keller?
No .
Whom did Mr. Hinchen report to?
Dr. Keller.
Turning to the second column w e see
Manager Process Technology.
Do you
r e c o g n i ze that name?
Yes, I do .
Who is that gentleman?
01 1 ie
D e G a r mo .
Did he have any involvement with Aroclors
or P C B s or their production?
I do not know.
Underneath, we have J.F. Quinn.
Do you
recognize that name?
Yes.
Jack Quinn.
Who is he ?
Section Manager in the Process Technology
section .
Was he involved in the production of
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284
Aroclors?
A.
He could have been.
I do not know.
Q. What about D.R. Cova?
A. I believe it was Daryll Cova, yeah.
Q.
Was he involved in the production of
Aroclors?
A.
I do not know
Q An d under n e a t h, we have group leaders, do
you know any of Mr . Caldwell, Mr. Knapp.,
or Mr . L y n c h ?
A . Yes.
Q Which one s do you know?
A . Knapp's n ame , Bill . I believe W . stands
for Willi a m .
And Lynch I kind o f
remember.
Caldwell, I don't r erne mb e r .
Q What did Mr . Knapp or Mr. Lynch do?
A.
I don't know.
Q Did they have any involvement with
Aroclors or PCBs?
A.
I don ' t know.
Q L o o k i ng to the third column. we see Mr
C o d t , C-o-d-t.
Do you recognize that
name?
A.
No, s i r .
Q Going to the last column, we see J.S.
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285
Metcalf.
Do you recognize that name?
A.
No, sir.
Q.
And underneath him, we see J.C. Weber.
Do you recognize that name?
A.
No, sir.
Q. Thank you. Mr. Tucker, do you recall any
trip mentioned ---------- talked yesterday about
trips to Europe to meet with Mr. Jensen
and Mr. Widmark.
I have taken a
..
deposition of Norman Johnson in this
case, and Mr. Johnson testified that
after a return from a trip to speak with
or meet with Jensen or Widmark, or both.
Dr. Richard and Mr. Johnson attended a
meeting where there were discussions
about the work going on in Sweden, and
Mr. Johnson testified that that meeting
took place in 1968.
Do you remember any
such meeting when Dr. Richard reported on
results of work taking place in Europe by
the Swedes?
MR. ZIMMER:
Let me ---------- before
you answer, I'm not sure you've got
the dates right. But Keller testified that the trip took place
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ln
69
MR. KASHANI:
His trip.
I'm
referring to Dr. Richard's trip.
MR. ZIMMER:
Okay.
MR. KASHANI: testimony.
And Mr. Johnson's
A. Q.
MR . ZIMMER:
I was at Mr .
John son's, but I don't recall the
test imo n y, but if that 's accurate,
a n s w e r if you know of that sort of
meet i n g .
No .
Mr. Johnson testified that Dr. Richard,
as early as 1968, suggested or urged or
advised ---------- let's use "suggested."
We
can check the testimony to see what Norm Johnson's exact testimony was, but I'm
going to use the word "suggested."
Mr.
Johnson testified that in 1968 Dr.
Richard suggested that Monsanto would
have to withdraw all Aroclors from the
market.
Do you recall any such
suggestion made by Dr. Richard or anyone
else? A . No .
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Q.
Are you familiar with a Dr. Risebrough?
A. Q. A.
Do you want to define "familiarity"? Have you ever met him? I don't recall ever meeting him.
Q. Have you ever read his papers on PCBs?
A.
I have read at least ---------- I recall reading at least one unpublished paper, perhaps,
Q.
by Risebrough. Let me show you the Exhibitnext
in
...
order . (Thereupon the Court Reporter
marked the pertinent document as
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 347-A).
Q.
It's Exhibit 347.
Do you recognize
either the first page of this Exhibit or
the attachment?
A.
No, sir.
Q.
The first
sentence reads, "Attached is a
Xerox copy of a technical paper which
Scott Tucker and I picked up in
Washington recently."
And I imagine that
A.
"I" refers to Elmer Wheeler.
Do you
remember picking up Washington with Dr.
a technical Wheeler?
paper in ' i^
No, sir.
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Q.
Do you remember ever seeing the technical
A.
paper that's attached to Exhibit 347? I don't specifically remember seeing it.
Q.
Do you have any general recollection of this paper?
A. I have a general recollection, yes.
Q. Is this a paper by Dr. Risebrough that
you were mentioning ---------- you mentioned
earlier?
_
A.
I can't be sure.
What I mentioned I
recalled was reading an unpublished paper
by Risebrough.
This appears to be
published.
Q.
Was the unpublished paper you read prior
to the date of this paper?
The date on
this paper appears to be ----------
(OFF RECORD)
Q.
The date on the memo is October, 1968, so
presumably the paper is on or before
October, 1968.
A. I can't answer.
I don't have a good
recollection, obviously.
Q.
What do you remember about Dr.
Risebrough's findings?
A.
I remember that Dr. Risebrough claimed to
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have found polychlorinated biphenyls in a variety of environmental samples somewhere on the west coast, I believe
Q A. Q
A. Q
A. Q.
And d o you----------- o f the United States,
And d o you remember when you first heard
about those findings?
Not specifically. Was i t prior to the date of this memo.
October,1968?
I don't recall. Does this memo indicate that you knew
about or heard of at least some of Dr.
Risebrough's. findings as of October,
1968?
MR. ZIMMER:
Does this memo
indicate that?
MR. KASHANI:
Well, the memo refers
to Dr. Tucker and Dr. Wheeler
picking up a paper that appears to
be Dr. Risebrough's paper in
Washington.
MR. ZIMMER:
You're right.
Well,
he's not going to answer that
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Q. A.
argumentative question, though.
That's spurious.
Because it may
indicate that to you.
It may
indicate something else to someone
else.
You haven't established a
foundation that he remembers this
memo, and you've already asked him if he remembers picking up that paper in Washington, and he said ...
"no. " MR. KASHANI:
Well, he said he had
some recollection.
MR. ZIMMER:
He said he had a
general recollection of the paper.
MR. KASHANI:
I'm trying to
establish when ---------- approximately
when he may have seen this paper.
MR. ZIMMER:
Right.
And you don't
need to argue with him, based on
what you think this memo shows.
That's not a fair question.
Does the memo trigger any recollection as
to when you might have read this paper?
The memo doesn't trigger any
recollection.
Elmer has indicated that
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we picked something up.
I don't recall
picking it up.
I mean, Elmer could have
picked it up when I was there too, but,
you know ---------- as I said earlier, I don't
recall this.
Q.
Elmer, that's Elmer Wheeler?
A.
Correct.
E.P. Wheeler.
I believe E.
stands for Elmer.
Q. Did you have an opinion of Dr.
..
Risebrough's work at the time you first
heard about it?
A.
Not at the time ----------- probably not at the
time I first heard about it.
I probably
would have had to review it first.
Q. After reviewing it, did you formulate an
opinion as to its ----------
A.
I recall an opinion.
Q.
What was your opinion?
A.
My opinion was that the information was
interesting and plausible, but that it
wasn't definitive.
Q. Now this is the information that Dr.
Risebrough had found trace amounts of
PCBs in wildlife on the west coast?
A.
Dr. Risebrough had found indications of
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Q.
chlorinated hydrocarbons in environmental
type samples, I think primarily birds'
eggs and things of that sort on the west
coast.
And I believe, subsequently, at
some point in time ---------- he was primarily
looking for pesticides, like DDT
and
Dieldren, and Lindane, and Toxaphene, and
a myriad of other chlorinated hydrocarbon
pesticides that had been intentionally ..
sprayed around out there and also
manufactured out there, and I believe ----------
my recollection as it is ---------- is that some
point in time, he became aware of the
Sjorn Jensen work and went back and
reviewed his information and seemed to
find a number of extra peaks that he decided that he felt strongly enough that
these were all PCBs, and he published
that information.
And it was based
strictly on electron capture gas
chromatography, which is not an absolute
identification technique in environmental
---------- especially for PCB s .
in
environmental
samples I'
By "peaks" do you mean the graph readouts
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that come out from the gas chromatograph?
A.
That's correct,
Q.
Do you recall anyone atMonsanto
expressing an opinion as to Dr.
Risebrough1s work?
MR. ZIMMER:
When?
Q. Let's start with at any time and go back.
A.
I've just indicated that I expressed an
opinion, and I was at Monsanto.
..
Q.
Anyone else?
A.
Not really.
It would have been in my
bailiwick to comment on the technical
aspects or validity of Risebrough's work,
specifically the analytical chemistry
associated with it.
Q.
Do you recall anydiscussions
concerning
Dr. Risebrough's work?
A.
No, sir.
Q.
Do you recall if Dr. Risebrough also made
the assertion that PCBs could have an
effect on steroids in wildlife?
A.
Ye s .
Q.
When did you first hear that?
A.
I believe it was part of the papers or
draft papers that I saw where he had
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used, I believe, it was PCBs to invoke
some microsomal enzyme response.
Q. Was that in live animals?
A.
I don't
recall.
But, in general,
any
chlorinated hydrocarbon will invoke
microsomal enzyme responses.
Q.
And what's a "microsomal enzyme
A.
response"?
I'm not
sure.
I'm not a biologist, but. I
know it invokes it.
Q.
Is that
an effect on the steroids in the
animal?
A.
Could be.
Q.
Let me show you an Exhibit.
MR. KASHANI:
Exhibit next in
order.
(Thereupon the Court Reporter
marked the pertinent document as
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 348-A)
A.
I've looked over the Exhibit given me.
Q
Do you have any recollection of Exhibit 348 ?
A . No, sir. Q Any general recollection? A . I have some general recollect; ion of s ome
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1 of the opinions that I've been reminded
2 of that were stated in here, yes.
3
Q.
Which opinions are those?
4
A.
Well, as I said earlier, I believe I was
5 asked to review Risebrough's work, and my
6 opinion was that it was speculative and
7 not based on absolute confirmation.
8 That's not a criticism, incidentally.
9 Scientists are intentionally speculative.
10 I mean they are asked to do that kind of
11
routinely.
The problem associated with
12 that speculation is when actions are
13
taken on it.
But there were some concern
14 with some of the extrapolations and the
15 probability of them being true or not
16
true.
And there was some feeling, I
17 think, that Risebrough had extrapolated
18 the information he had way beyond any
19 reasonable interpretation of it, and, you
20 know, it's kind of interesting,
21 twenty-five years later, we were right.
22
Q.
What was unreasonable about Risebrough's
23 ions?
24
A.
Well, Risebrough took ----------
25
Q.
I'd like to ask about your conclusions
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296
back at the time, meaning at the time you
A. Q. A. Q.
A. Q. A.
Okay. ---------- reviewed his work and not today.
Well ---------- okay.
I mean, obviously, today there is more information ----------
Yes, and ------------------- andback at the time ----------
_
---------- you know, it's comforting to
understand that the way we felt was based
on good logic.
First of all, Risebrough
took information that was generated for
one purpose and revisited it and interpreted it in light of other people's
findings in Sweden and categorically said that there was a major pollution problem
with polychlorinated biphenyls on the
west coast of the United States.
Whether
that was true or not, that was a pretty large step based on the information that
he had, especially since the information
was based on analytical technique that
was known to be less than definitive when
dealing with weathered biological
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samples.
It was a conclusion that you
could draw, but it was not necessarily responsible.
Q.
You mentioned that Dr. Risebrough was
using the gas chromatograph with an
electron capture device?
A. Q.
Correct. Was that similar to the equipment you
were using?
A.
Correct.
Q. Were there any other opinions that you
found unreasonable or any other opinion
---------- I'm sorry.
Let's go back.
Any other
opinions ----------
A.
Yes.
Q.
---------- that you recall triggered by this
memo?
A. Did you ask me if there were any other of
Risebrough's opinions that were expressed
in his papers that I found unreasonable
Q. A. Q. A.
Yes.
At the time? -
---------- at that time?
Yes.
What were those?
'* '
That PCBs and chlorinated hydrocarbons.
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298
in general, were responsible for eggshell
thinning in birds.
Q. Why did you think that was unreasonable?
A.
I felt that that was unreasonable because there just wasn't enough information at
that time to make that conclusion in a
definitive fashion.
Q.
Was there enough information at that time
to conclude that DDT was responsible f or
eggshell thinning in birds?
A . No, sir.
Q. Did that information later develop?
A. It had been speculated that that was
true, but I don't think it's ever been
shown that that was the cause of eggshell thinning.
Q.
So, it's your opinion that it has not
been established that DDT can cause
eggshell thinning in birds?
A. I think it's been established that DDT or
the commercial product DDT potentially
can in laboratory animals.
I don't think
it's been shown definitively to do so at
part per billion levels in the
environment.
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299
Q.
I refer you to a portion on page -----------
A.
Let me say one more thing too.
The
microsomal enzyme situation, which I have
classed myself ---------- classified myself as
not being an expert in, you can invoke
the same kind of responses they were
seeing with chlorinated hydrocarbons just
based on stress of the ---------- of the animal
and things of that sort.
So, you know,,
just from my viewpoint as a scientist at
that point in time, the information
wasn't overwhelming enough to ---------- to take
major action.
It called for generation
of more information.
Q.
You believe that the information was
similarly lacking with respect to DDT at
that time?
A.
DDT was considerably different than PCBs.
Q.
Turning to page two of Exhibit 348, I
refer you to the last full paragraph.
Can I ask you to read that?
A.
The last full paragraph?
Q. A.
Yes. Starting with Risebrough?
Q.
"Risebrough has taken known Aroclor
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A.
samples ---------"Risebrough has taken known Aroclor
samples and claims to have evidence of
enzyme and hormone change.
Here there is
not question of identification.
Either
his position is attacked and discounted,
or we will eventually have to withdraw
product from end uses which have exposure
problems.
Since Risebrough' s paper in ..
"Nature", December, 1968 has just been
published, it is timely, perhaps
imperative, that this paper and its
implications be discussed with certain
customers. This is a rough one because
it could mean loss of business on empty
and false claims by Risebrough."
Q.
Do you recall discussions along those
lines at Monsanto at about the time of
this memo, 1968?
A.
No, sir.
MR. ZIMMER:
Lacks foundation.
Q.
Do you recall if the implications of
Risebrough's paper were discussed with
any customers?
A.
No, sir.
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Q.
Do you recall if Monsanto lost any
business because of Dr. Risebrough's
claims?
A.
No, sir.
Q.
"No," you don't recall or "no," they
didn't lose any business?
A.
Both.
Q.
Wait.
I don't understand.
You don't ---------------
A. Well, then only ask one question at a
..
time.
Q.
Did Monsanto lose any business because of
Dr. Risebrough's claims?
A. Not to my knowledge.
MR. ZIMMER:
Let's take a break.
(OFF RECORD)
Q.
I wonder if
we could go back on the
record and just finish up with Document
348.
Let me refer you to page one of
this document which is number T 091772.
A.
Excuse me?
Q.
I'm referring to the Bates number down at
the bottom,
A. T 091772, okay.
(OFF RECORD)
Q. I refer you to the second to the last
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A. Q.
A. Q.
A. Q.
full paragraph which reads, "Monsanto is
preparing to challenge certain aspects of
this problem, but we are not prepared to
defend against all of the accusations."
Do you know which accusations Monsanto
was not prepared to defend against?
-
MR. ZIMMER:
Assumes facts not in
evidence. Lacks foundation and calls
for speculation.
You can answer it.
No.
Do you know which aspects of the problem
Monsanto was prepared to challenge?
MR. ZIMMER:
Same objection.
Same answer.
No.
Going to the three numbers after ---------- in
the first paragraph, it says, "Risebrough
in a recent paper," and then it lists
three items, one, two, and three ----------
they're numbered.
Okay.
Up at the top.
Yes.
Again, taking you back to the date o f
this memo which is March, 19 6 9 , a t that
point, to your knowledge. was M o n s a n t o
9*
challenging Risebrough's apparent claim
that PCBs are a pollutant ---------- I'm
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303
A. Q.
referring to number oonnee ---------- are a
pollutant or widely spread by air and
water.
Do you know if Monsanto was
preparing to challenge that accusation?
MR. ZIMMER:
Calls for speculation.
No.
Was Monsanto prepared to challenge the
accusation that PCBs were an
uncontrollable pollutant?
Again, I'm
.
quoting from number one.
MR. ZIMMER:
Okay.
Your question
before was did he know.
Now you're
saying was Monsanto.
He is not
Monsanto.
He can only tell you what
he knew so ---------- I know it's a
semantical ----------
MR . KASHAN I :
I know
I me an , I ' m
assuming when I ask 11 D O you know? it
and you answer "No" that you are
saying----------the
answer m e a n s that you
do not know.
MR . ZIMMER:
Okay.
THE WITNESS:
Tha t 11 s what I a s sume
too.
MR . KASHANI :
Okay.
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Q.
A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.
Q.
MR. ZIMMER:
I'm just making sure,
because the ----------
MR. KASHANI:
I can rephrase the
second question.
Do you know if Monsanto was prepared to
challenge the apparent accusation that
PCBs were an uncontrollable pollutant?
Was prepared to -----------
Challenge,yes.
.
No. Was preparing to challenge.
What do you mean by "challenge," please? Refute it, dispute it through the
literature or through publications.
If "challenge" means that Monsanto would
initiate a more definitive analytical
program to get bona fide information to
either verify or deny speculations by
Risebrough, then I might say "yes" to
that.
"Challenge" has a, you know, an
emotion associated with it that ----------- I
mean, you know, this isn't exactly a
boxing match or a fist fight.
This memo is entitled Aroclor Wildlife
Accusations which has a certain
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305
connotation to it, and I guess I'm using "challenge" in the same context, whether
A. Q.
A.
Well----------
---------- Monsanto was prepared to simply
accept these accusations without response
or if Monsanto was preparing to respond
in some way.
MR. ZIMMER:
Okay.
That's a
.
different question.
The memo discusses Risebrough, and the
word "accusation," which is also an
emotional word, is what Risebrough was
doing.
He was accusing.
Monsanto didn't
necessarily believe that he had the facts
to speculate the way he was.
And so I
believe that they were preparing to
defend themselves against those
accusations, and any defense against
those kinds of accusations involved
obtaining definitive information that was
beyond a shadow of a doubt re flective o f
what the real situation was.
S o , i f you
mean was Monsanto challenging him i n that
way, I would agree, although I still
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Q.
A. Q.
don't like the word "challenge" because I don't think this was an ---------- needed to be or was an adversarial situation from Monsanto's viewpoint. Well, using your definition, was Monsanto preparing to challenge the accusations that are listed in number one on page one of Exhibit 348? What I said was that Monsanto was preparing to investigate properly. I'm using your definition of "challenge"
A. Q.
No .
----------
the one you used in your previous
A. Q. A.
Q. A. Q.
No, I was using your definition of challenge, and, yes ---------"Yes" to what? Yes, Monsanto was preparing to obtain definitive information to establish the validity of Risebrough's speculations. Do you know if Monsanto ever obtained that information? No . What about the second item referring to
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PCBs as a toxic substance with no
permissible allowable levels?
Do you
know if Monsanto was preparing to
A.
challenge that accusation? Well, it goes on further than just that
po rtion----------
Q.
Well, yes.
I'm referring to the whole
thing.
A.
Okay.
Yes.
..
Q.
Was Monsanto preparing to challenge that
accusation?
A. Q.
Yes. And were investigations performed to
challenge that accusation?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Do you kno w who was involved in those investigat ions?
A.
I believe you would have to talk with
Industrial Bio-Test.
Q.
So Industr ial Bio-Test did the work to challenge these accusations?
A.
I think so .
I don't know.
Q. A.
Do you kno w who at Not specif ically.
Monsanto was involved?
' `5 ^ It probably would be
in Wheeler 's bailiwick.
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Q.
Was Dr. Kelly involved?
A.
Emmett Kelly was Wheeler's boss.
Q. A.
Was Mr. Garrett involved?
Jack Garrett?
I don't know.
I doubt it.
Q.
Do you know if any laboratory other than, or any group other than Industrial
Bio-Test was involved in doing the
investigation to determine the validity
of the accusations set forth in number ..
two of Exhibit 348?
A.
No .
Q.
And, finally, was Monsanto prepared to challenge the accusations set forth in
number three, which reads that apparently
PCBs are "a toxic substance endangering
man himself, implying that the peregrine
falcon is the leading indicator of things
to come"? A. Was that-question "preparing" or
"prepared"?
Q.
Let's say "preparing."
A. Q.
Ye s . Do you know if Monsanto did do
investigations to determine the validity
of this claim?
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1
A.
No .
'2
Q.
Okay.
Who asked you to review Dr.
3 Risebrough's work?
4
A.
I don't recall.
5 Q. Might it have been Dr. Keller?
6
A.
Could have.
7
Q.
All right.
Thank you.
8
MR. KASHANI:
Let's take a break.
9
(OFFRECORD)
.
10
Q.
Dr. Tucker, I'm going to refer you back
11
to Exhibit 321 that was
introduced
12 earlier and ask you if you have any
13 general recollection of this document?
14
A.
That's different to what you usually ask.
15 You changed to general recognition -----------
16 whether I have ---------- or do I recognize the
17
document?
You said "general recognition"
18 this time?
19
Q.
Yes.
20
MR. ZIMMER:
Recollection.
21
A.
General
-
22
Q.
Recollection.
'
23
A.
---------- recollection.
Yes, I do.
This is an
24 earlier Exhibit.
25
Q.
Other than when you saw it yesterday, do
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A. Q.
Q. A.
you have any other recollection?
Not specifically. Any general recollection?
MR. ZIMMER:
I'm also puzzled by
---------- I mean, of seeing it before?
Or
what's the ---------- or issues discussed
.
in it?
I mean, that's the dilemma,
I think, that both the Doctor and I
are having. MR. KASHANI: I've asked the same
question with respect to other
documents, and Dr. Tucker answered "yes" or "no," and I'm asking the
s ame question .
MR. ZIMMER:
Well, and he's
expressed some confusion about it,
so I think if there's a way you
could flesh that out for us ----------
Well, can you answer, Dr. Tucker?
Well you've expressed confusion.
I mean,
I've asked this same question before.
MR. ZIMMER:
You just did the same
thing.
We can have it read back if
you need to.
If you can answer, go
ahead, Doctor.
I'm not trying to be
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A. Q.
A. Q. A.
obstructive.
I'm just trying to
figure out ---------I don't recall specifically this memo.
The topic in it is obviously something
that Monsanto was paying me to deal with
there.
We all know that, so in general,
it's familiar.
Let me refer you to the paragraph that's
numbered Five on the first page.
That's
at TRAN
057161. Number Five reads, "The
advisability of determining" or it says,
it reads "determing" ---------- I assume it
means determining, although, of course,
we're not sure ----------- "the character and
possibility of isolating the "major
fraction" in each of the Aroclors to be
studied is to be explored."
Does the
term "major fraction" in the context of
Aroclors mean anything to you?
MR. ZIMMER:
Calls for speculation
and lacks foundation.
"Major fraction" would mean something to
me , yes.
What does that mean?
Ma j o r part.
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Q.
Does that refer to the dominant isomer in
the context of what we were discussing yesterday?
A . Yes. It would appear to do s o . That's how I would interpret i t .
Q Just to take an exampl e, in the case of Aroclor 1242, the domi n a n t isomer would be the biphenyl which has three chlorines
on it? A . Correct .
. -
Q And that would be the major fraction of Aroclor 1242?
A. It might be part of the major fraction.
Q. What would be the rest of the major
fraction?
A. Depends on what you defined as the fraction, whether it was half of it,
whether it was a third of it, whether it
was a fourth of it, whether it was an
eighth of it?
Depends on your definition
of the fraction.
Q.
But major fraction does -----------
A. 51 percent is a major fraction.
If
there's four components in something, and
one of the components is twice as much as
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Q.
A.
Q. A.
Q. A.
in the others, then one-fourth of the
components is the major fraction.
It
depends on the definition of the fraction
is what I'm attempting to relay to you.
So, does major fraction embody the
concept that the compound in this case
---------- not a compound ---------- the substance in
this case, Aroclor consists of more than
one different substance?
.
I think while it doesn't consist of more
than one substance, it consists of
multiple isomers and/or homologs, but
they're basically the same substance,
polychlorinated biphenyls.
That's a new term.
What do you mean by
" h o m o 1 o g '' ? What I mean by "homolog" is, for example,
all of the isomers that have five
chlorines associated with them ---------- all of
the isomers that have four chlorines
associated with them.
Those to me are
homologs.
So, "homolog" is a sub-set of isomers ----------
in the context of Aroclors?
Homolog is a group of isomers that have
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the same chlorine number.
That's what I
Q.
mean
by it.
Back to the question on major fraction.
I understand that we have to define, you
know,
a percentage, but does major
fraction embody the concept that there are different components to an Aroclor
and we can take a sub-set of those and
call
it the major fraction?
.
A.
I think
yeah, that would be true.
I
think "fraction" itself denotes ----------- when
its talking about anything ---------- that it's
a sub-set thereof.
Q.
Do you know -----------
A.
Yes.
.
Q.
Okay.
Do you know if, at the time of
this memo, ---------- this is December, 1968 -----------
Monsanto had the ability to isolate the different homologs in Aroclors?
A.
I know they did not.
I know no one had
the ability to isolate the different
Q.
homo logs. Atthe time
of this memo in December,
1968, ---------- I'll withdraw that.
A.
If I canshed some light
on that, I'd be
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1
happy to.
Or I can stick to your
'2
questions.
It's your choice.
3
MR. ZIMMER:
Why don't we stick to
4 his questions.
5
THE WITNESS:
Okay.
6 Q. I refer you to another document.
7
-
MR. KASHANI:
This can be marked
8 Exhibit Three Forty-nine.
9 (Thereupon the Court Reporter
10 marked the pertinent document as
11 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 349-A) 12 Q. Do you recognize this document?
13 A . No, sir.
14 Q. I refer you to page four, the paragraph
15
numbered four, section "C".
This refers
16
to --------- I'll read the quote.
It says,
17 "Top-cut --------- top, hyphen, cut ---------
18 retained batches of A-5460," and then the
19 next sub-paragraph, sub-paragraph "D"
20 refers to, quote, "Carry out a plant
21
trial of 'top-cutting'."
Does the term
22 "top-cut" mean anything to you?
23 A. No, sir.
24 Q. Does that have any application to PCBs?
25 A. Aroclor 5460 is not a PCB.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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316
1 Q . I know.
2 A . Okay.
3 Q. I understand that.
4 A . So I don' t---------
5 Q I'm asking you if ---------
6 A . Does this --
7 Q Not this. but---------
8 A . --------- state that there's any applicat ion to
9
---------I don
' t understand the question r
*
10 please .
11 Q Does the term "top-cutting" have any 12 applicati on to PCBs?
13 A . Top-cutti ng could have application t o
14 anything.
15 Q What does "top-cutting" mean?
16 A . Taking -- - I would --------- I can only - - - I
17 can only speculate.
18
MR . ZIMMER:
Do you mean to him or
19 in this memo ?
20
MR . KASHANI:
Well , I mean he' s
21 already testified he's not fam i 1 i a r
22 with the memo.' I mean---------
23
MR. ZIMMER:
Well, the term
24 actually ---------
25 Q. Well, you said top-cutting could mean
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043422
317
1 different things, and ---------
'2 A . I know what the "top cut" means to me in
3 English.
4 Q. Does it mean anything to you in the
5 context of PCBs?
6 A. I could speculate on what it means.
7 Q. Okay and what is that?
8
MR. ZIMMER:
He doesn't want you to
9 do t h at .
..
10
THE WITNESS:
Okay.
11 Q. No, you can go ahead.
12 A. It would seem to me to take the top part.
13 I mean --------- I mean, you know, you don't
14 have to be too intuitive to understand
15 that kind of part, but I don't know how
16 it would be applied.
17 Q. Do you mean taking the higher chlorinated
18 isomers out?
19 A. I don't know. I don't know what the top
20
o f an Aroclor i s .
That ' s why it doesn'
21 make sense to me .
22 Q D r . Tucker, do you recall hearing about
23 a n incident in Japan where some cooking
-* 24 oil was contaminated with PCBs?
25 A . Yes
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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318
1 Q. Referred to as the Yoshu incident?
'2 A . Yes.
3 Q. How did you hear about that?
4
A. Throughhigher up
folks in the company in
5 Monsanto.
6 Q. Was that Dr. Keller?
7
A. No.
It was probably through -------------- it could
8 have been through Keller, but most likely
9 through Wheeler.
.
10 Q. And what were you told?
11 A. Just what you said yourself, that some
12 rice oil had been contaminated ---------- I
13 don't have the details of how it was ----------
14
with a Aroclor similar product,
a
15 polychlorinated biphenyl product, and I
16 believe they were called Kaneclors.
17 Q. And were you told anything else?
18 A . No, sir.
19 Q. Were you told that any people were
20 injured?
21 A . No, sir.
22 Q. Did you express any response to this
23 information?
24 A. Yeah. My response was "Why, so what?"
25 In other words, the people who imparted
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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319
1 the information to me obviously wanted me
'2
to do something, and Iasked
them what
3 they wanted me to do.
4 Q. And what did they say?
5 A. I think the indications were that they
6 wanted us to take some of the
7 methodologies that we had and look at the
8 Kanec1or-type products and things of that
9
sort, and see what thoseKaneclor
PCB .
10 products looked like relative to the
11 Monsanto products.
12 Q. And did you do that?
13 A. I recall either my group and/or Emery's
14 group doi ng some comparative work.
15 Q . And what were the results?
16 A . The results that they were different , but
17 the same.
18 Q You mean the Kaneclor was different, but
19 the same than Aroclor?
20 A . They were polychlorinated biphenyls, but
21 they were --------- definitely gave different
22 isomer di stribution traces.
23
Q They give different isomer traces.
Does
24 that mean that they seem to indicate a
25 mix of isomers than the
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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320
1 Aroclors that Monsanto manufactured?
2 A. There was a different mixture of isomers 3 between the two products, the Kaneclor 4 and the Aroclors.
5 Q. Could you detect any isomers ---------- which
6 isomers ?
7 A. Could I detect ---------
8 Q. Could you detect which isomers were in
9 the product that you examined from Japan?
10 A. The gas chromatography equipment that we 11 had available to us in the --------- even
12 nowadays --------- is not capable of doing
13
complete isomeric separations.
And so,
14 what you end up with is a whole bunch of
15 peaks, some of which can have lower ---------- a
16 peak, for example, may have lower boiling 17 tetrachloral bipheny1-type isomers and
18 higher boiling trichloral biphenyl
19
isomers.
So there's some overlap.
But
20 the fingerprint that you get is
21 representative of the Aroclor or the
22
Kaneclor that you're dealing with.
And
23 the higher the chlorination, the higher
24 the boiling point, so the whole
25 fingerprint moves one way or the other.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 depending upon what degree of
'2
chlorination there is.
You see a number
3 of peaks and, depending upon whether you
4 are using capillary columns or packed
5 columns or whatever, you see more or less
6
peaks.
And it's --------- it can be, you know,
7 isomer distribution, homolog
8 distribution, component distribution, or
9
whatever distribution, but it's a
...
10 reproducible distribution of how the
11 column separates the constituents in that
12 product, and you end up with what's
13
called a fingerprint.
And what I'm
14 saying is that we compared the
15 fingerprints of the Kaneclor products and
16 the Aroclor products, and there were
17 differences.
18 Q. Could you tell the homolog distribution
19 in the two products?
20 A. No. Not with --------- no.
21 Q, Could you tell that there were different
22 homologs?
~
23 A. All we could tell was that there were
24 different boiling points, since the
25 separation that you obtain in a gas
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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322
1 chromatograph is primarily boiling point
'2 an d / o r at traction, which can---------you
3 know, i f --------- I don't know how to say this
4
---------I
guess I'll just say it.
In a
5 biphenyl molecule you've got ten
6 posit ions in which you can put chlorine.
7
Okay?
For example, in a mo nochloral r
8 there are three isomers, ortho, meta , and
9
para.
Each one of those will have a
*-
10
different boiling point.
And they have a
11 different attraction for the liquid phase
12 that's present in gas chromatographic
13 columns that are used to separate those
14
two.
So, depending on what the boiling
15 point of these are will determine how
16 they allude and also, the liquid phase
17 that's used in the column will determine
18 the order in which they are alluded.
19 When you start adding in 210 isomers in
20 different quantities, they can coallude.
21
A five could allude with a seven.
A five
22 could allude with a' three, so there's---------
23 it's kind of like an overlap all the way
24
across.
So, we don't know for sure that
25 any particular peak that would come out
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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323
1 that was --------- that was --------- whether it was
2 totally a pentachloral homolog or whether
3 it was totally a pentachloral isomers or
4
which of them were.
We just know that
5 it's a peak that appears at a certain
6 point, and that it's reproducible if you
7 don't change your conditions around too
8 mu c h .
9 Q. What did you mean when you just said five
10 ' and seven and three.
11 A. Number of chlorines per biphenyl
12 molecule .
13
Q.
So, by "five," youwere referring
to a
14 biphenyl with five chlorines on it?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And "seven"referring to a biphenyl with
17 seven chlorines on it?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Could you tell whether the samples of the
20 polychlorinated biphenyl product that you
21 analyzed from Japan contained biphenyls
22 with five chlorines- on them or six
23 chlorines on them', or seven chlorines on
24 them?
25 A. By electron capture or by GC electron
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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324
1 capture?
2 Q. By any method available to you at that
3 time.
4 A. What was the date of the Yoshu incident?
5 Q. Well, we have a document that refers to
6 it that is --------- let's see --------- we have one
7 document that refers to it that appears
8
to be dated 1968.
I have others.
9
MR. KASHANI:
Let's enterthis as
10 the next Exhibit and let me see if I
11 have other documents.
12 (Thereupon the Court Reporter
13 marked the pertinent document as
14 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 350-A)
15 Q. This Exhibit has been marked Exhibit 350.
16 Do you recognize that Exhibit?
17 A . No, sir.
18 Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to
19 the date of the --------- I use the term Yusho
20
(pronouncing you shaw).
Does that refer
21 to the Japanese incident?
22 A. I think that's --------- is that the correct
23 pronunciation or ---------
24
Q. I don't know if
the ---------
25 A. That's --------- I'm referring to the Japanese
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 incident, and I call it Yoshu
'2 (pronouncing yo shoo).
3 Q. Yoshu. Does this document. Document 250
4 (sic) refresh any recollection about the
5 timing of that incident?
6 A. It doesn't pinpoint when the incident
7
occurred.
It does --------- it was apparently
8 produced, by the date in the upper
9 right-hand corner, in December of 1968 .
10 and it talks about it, so I assume that
11 it had to occur sometime prior to that,
12 but that's as close as it fixes it for
13 me .
14 Q. In any case, I'm referring --------- in terms
15 of your ability to detect the different
16 homologs of polychlorinated biphenyls,
17 I'm referring to the analysis that you
18 took at about the time of the Yusho
19 incident so we can establish through
20
other means when that occurred.
And then
21 my question remains as whether at that
22
time
-- at the ti me that you were asked
23 to test the Kaneclor --------- is that
24 K-a-n-e-c-l-o-r?
25 A. Either K-a-n-a or K-a-n-e ---------
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 Q. "Kaneclor" meaning the PCB product from "2 Japan, whether at that time you were able
3 to detect the presence of PCB molecules
4 with five or six or seven chlorines on
5 them?
6 A. Yeah. I think, basically, that you
7 could, especially on the neat product
8 when you were dealing with materials that
9 werelOOpercentPCBs.
.
10 Q. So, if you were ----------
11 A. And, again, I will say very frankly that
12 it would --------- you could --------- it would be
13 very difficult to pinpoint every peak
14 that came off as being completely this or
15 completely that because again, there is
16 serious mixture i n terms of that kind of
17
thing, but---------and
also, you 'd have to be
18 dealing with the neat product.
19
Q I understand.
I f you were able, for
20 e x a mp1e , to draw a pure--------- pure as it
21 comes - -- s a mp1e o f A r o c 1 o r 12 4 2 right
22 off the production line at Monsanto and
23 analyze that --------- and again, I'm talking
24 about roughly the time of the Yusho
25 incident --------- Yoshu (pronouncing yo shoo)?
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043432
327
1
Yusho (pronouncing you show)?
Yoshu
2 (pronouncing yo shoo) ---------
3 A. Yes, sir.
4
MR. ZIMMER:
We understand.
5 Q. --------- incident, could you at that time
6 determine whether it contained PCBs with
7 five, six or seven, however many
8
chlorines?
That would be a neat sample,
9 asyousay.
10 A. Yeah. We could imply it by comparison
11 with Aroclors and with ----------- by comparison
12 with Aroclors using them as standards, we
13 could imply what was there.
14 Q. So the answer is "yes"?
15 A . Yes.
16
Q. Do you recall when Monsanto, or when
you
17 in your lab, or, to your knowledge, other
18 labs at Monsanto first became able to
19 detect the presence of higher chlorinated
20 PCBs in the Aroclor products?
21 A . No .
22 Q. Was it sometime be fo re the Yusho
23 incident?
24 A.Certainly.
25 Q. Do you remember approximately how long
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043433
328
1 before?
2 A . No , s i r .
3 Q . D o you recall i f your group was the first 4 t o b e able to run that analysis, in other
5 w o r d s , the f i r s t group to be able to pin
6 -- not pinpoint, but detect the presence
7 o f -- or let u s say - -- well, I will
8
just withdraw that.
That's fine.
For
9 this work that was done, this work in _
10 determining the PCBs or determining the
11 presence or detecting the presence of
12 PCBs with five, six and seven chlorines
13 on them, did you need the --------- did you use
14 the gas chromatography electron capture
15 equipment or the gas chromatograph mass
16 spec equipment?
17 A. My group used primarily gas
18 chromatography electron capture
19 equipment, and that equipment was not
20 used to identify isomeric composition of
21
neat, pure Aroclors.
In fact, if you
22 opened up a bottle of Aroclor near one of
23 those detectors, you would probably shut
24 it down for a week.
25 Q. So, what equipment did you use.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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329
1 A. I didn't use any equipment to do it.
2
Q. Did your group
what equipment did
3 your group use?
4 A. My group did not do that.
5
Q. Oh, I see.
Do you know whose group did
6 that work?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Which group was that?
9 A. Martin Dietrich's group.
^
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. Or Ed Emery's. It would depend when and
12 that kind of routine.
13
Q. Okay.
Thank you.
14
MR. KASHANI:
Let's move to the
15
next exhibit.
Plaintiff's Exhibit
16 3 5 1.
17 (Thereupon the Court Reporter
18 marked the pertinent document as
19 351 -- A) .
20
Q. Doyou recall this
document?
21 A. Not specifically.
22 Q. Do you have any generalrecollection ---------------
23 A . Yes.
24 Q. ---------- of the topics discussed in this
25 document ?
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
330
A . Yes.
Q. Do you remember writing this document?
A. Not specifically.
Q. Did you draw the map on the second page?
A. I know I didn't do that.
I'm not that
artistically inclined, I guarantee you.
No .
Q. Who is Mr. H. Vodden?
V-o-d-d-e-n?
A. If I remember correctly, Vodden is one of
the people associated with the Monsanto
U.K. operation in Newport.
Q. That's Newport in England?
A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
United Kingdom.
Q. This memo appears to referto testing
some mud samples from an estuary in the
Uskmouth --------- U-s-k-m-o-u-t-h --------- area in
United Kingdom.
Do you remember
receiving those samples and running those
tests?
A. No, sir, I don't.
Q. This memo refers to ppb of Aroclor.
Does
ppb mean parts per billion?
A. Yes, it does.
' -5' *
Q. And it says, in the third column it has
parts per billion Aroclor 1242 Found.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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331
1 Was your lab able to test for the
2 presence of Aroclor 1242 under parts per
3 billion at the time of this memo, that's
4 October, 1969?
5 A. It would appear that that's true, yes.
6 Let me caution you on something here.
7 Many times materials that showed electron
8 capture activity when run through these
9
procedures were calculated as certain
_
10 Aroclors because the Aroclors were the
11 only things that were available as
12 standards.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A . The only time we could be fairly s u r e
15 from an electron capture chromatog ram
16 that we were dealing with a bona f i d e
17 Aroclor --------- in other words, a Monsanto
18 PCB product --------- was if the complete
19 chromatogram matched in every way, shape,
20 and form with that of a standard
21
material.
And in ---------- usually that was
22 always backed up by the fact that we
23 probably knew that the material was being
24 used and/or manufactured in the area that
25
the samples were obtained from.
So, with
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043437
332
1 those kinds of information available to
2 us, we could decide whether we might be
3 dealing with an Aroclor 1242 or 1254, or
4 1 2 6 0.
5 Q. In the case of this memo, was it the
6 determination made that you were dealing
7 with Aroclor 1242?
8
MR. ZIMMER:
Lacks foundation.
9 A. The memo indicates and states that the
10 electron capture fingerprints were
11 identical with that of our Aroclor 1242
12
standard.
In that particular instance,
13 and the fact that I would assume that, as
14 I said earlier, they may have been using
15 the material around that area, that it
16 might --------- it was --------- it had a high
17 probability of being Aroclor 1242 or that
18 being the source of what was being found.
19
MR. ZIMMER:
Doctor, don't assume,
20 if you would, please.
21
THE WITNESS:
Okay.
Sorry.
22
MR. ZIMMER:
He wants to know what
23
your recollection is.
He can read
24 the memo ---------
25 A. Okay, I --------- I don't recollect this, as I
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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333
1 stated earlier, specifically.
2 Q. Do you know what the first column, the
3 first "PS Out Number N 6 9/"---------do you
4 know what that means?
5 A. It's a sample designator of one sort or
6 the other, but I specifically don't
7
remember it or know what
it means.
8 Q. Does that refer to method of logging or
9 record keeping of samples at Monsanto's
10 lab ?
11 A. No .
12 Q. I refer you to the next document.
13 A. (Witness peruses document).
14 (Thereupon the Court Reporter
15 marked the pertinent document as
16 , PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 352-A).
17 A . Okay.
18 Q. Do you recognize thisdocument?
19 A . No, sir.
20 Is this document in the format of other
21 memos that you wrote about the time of
22 this document, a b o ut 1 9 6 9 , a t Mon santo?
23 A . Yes, sir.
24 Q. Is this the format we were discussing
25 yesterday, where you would dictate or
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043439
334
1 handwrite out a memo and the secretary
2 would write and it would come back and
3 make corrections and then it would go
4 back?
5 A . I believe so. 6 Q. Do you recall any of the topics that are 7 mentioned in this memo?
8 A . Yes, sir.
9 Q. Which topics do you remember?
10 A. I recall Wisconsin Alumni Research
11
Foundation Institute.
And I recall
12 making a trip to review an audit at the
13
Institute.
I don't recall exactly when I
14 did it or, you know, making that --------- but
15
I do recall making that trip.
And I also
16 recall a gentleman named Francis Coon. 17 Q. Is that the name listed here, F. Coon in
18 the first sentence?
19 A. Yes, sir. And Birdsall I remember too,
20 because those were the two people I 21 talked to when I visited.
22 Q. What was the purpose of your visit?
23 A. Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation
24 Institute had put together the
25 wherewithal to begin sampling a sampling
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043440
335
1 of Lake Michigan to determine what kind
2 of constituents were --------- could be found
3 in samples of water, flora, fauna,
4
sediments, and things of that sort.
And,
5 to the best of my recollection, I think
6 they were looking for industrial sponsors
7 to help pay for this scientific endeavor
8
--------- investigation.
And in return for
9 participating and helping to---------to cove r
10
the costs of doing this kind of
----- this
11 thing, the information would be shared
12 ope-nly and freely with all of the
13 sponsors as well as being published.
14 Wisconsin Research Alumni Foundation was
15 a university-type thing, so that's what
16 it was about.
17 Q. Was the Wisconsin Alumni Research
18 Foundation interested in looking for the
19 presence of PCBs in the Michigan --------- Lake
20 Michigan water?
21 A. Not specifically.
22 Q. Were they interested in looking for PCBs
23 among other substances? 24 A. Ye s .
' V'
25 Q. Didthey have the equipment necessary to
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043441
336
1 detect the presence of PCBs?
2 A . Yes.
3 Q. And what equipment was that?
4 A. They had electron capture gas
5 chromatographs which were fairly common
6
and used for pesticides.
It was not
7 fairly common that they were being used
8 for PCB analysis or had been validated,
9
verified, or confirmed for that.
If I
10 remember correctly, WARF had been working
11 on validating the EC/GCs for use to
12 measure chlorinated hydrocarbons as well
13 as PCBs and to include PCBs.
14
Q. All right.
"EC/GC" meaning electron
15 capture gas chromatograph?
16 A. Right. Or GC/EC. I use them both ways.
17
Sorry.
I'll try to stick to one or the
18 other .
19 Q. Referring to the last paragraph on page
20
two.
That sentence reads, "In view of
21 this, our current Penascola (sic) ---------
22 P-e - n - s-a-c-o-1-a --------- problem and other
23 published information, I would suggest
24 that we step up our efforts at finding
25 immediate replacement formulations for
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
337
Pydraul AC and Pydraul 625."
Is this one
of the topics that you recall from this
memo?
A. No,
sir.
Q. Does the term Penascola problem mean
anything to you?
A. The
term "Pensacola" ------------
Q. Pensacola, I'm sorry.
A. ---------means something to me. It's a cit y.
in Florida and we have a plant there, and
the Pensacola problem, as it's put here,
I seem to recollect --------- I don't remember
clearly enough to --------- to recollect.
Q. Does the term "Escambia Bay" trigger any
recollection?
A. Yes, that does.
That means -----------
Q. Is that by Pensacola?
A . Yes.
Q. Was this Pensacola problem, is that when
there was a discharge of Aroclors or PCBs
from a Monsanto plant which poisoned some
sea life?
Is that what happened?
MR; ZIMMER:
It assumes facts not
in evidence .
A . No .
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043443
338
1 Q. What happened?
'2 A. Well, you've thrown some things in there
3 like poisoned sea life and things of that
4 sort that I think are speculative and
5 conjecture and inflammatory and untrue.
6 Q. Then what did?
7 A. As I recall, to the best of my ability,
8 it seems to me that there was a unit ---------
9 I know we didn't ever manufacture PCBs .in
10 Pensacola, and I think there was a unit
11 that may have been using a PCB-containing
12 fluid that had leaked and that had ---------
13 the material had, apparently leaked into
14 something that went into Escambia Bay.
15
And I
recall --------- and I'll tell you what
16 I recall right now, especially since you
17 mentioned Escambia Bay --------- I'm not even
18 sure I'm pronouncing that correctly ---------
19 is that we were concerned that the
20 material had gotten into the bay and that
21 it perhaps might have, you know,
22 contaminated some of the bottom feeding
23
organisms in that bay.
And I remember
24 receiving shrimp where somebody had hired
25 a shrimp boat to go collect shrimp by the
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043444
339
1
plant.
And the reason I remember it is
'2 because the shrimper that was asked to do
3 that was very indignant and very
4 embarrassed to do so, because nobody
5 shrimped there because there weren't any
6 shrimp there, and it wasn't a place where
7 shrimp were, and he felt his peers would
8 laugh at him.
9 Q. Didhefindanyshrimp?
..
10 A. We --------- I think we found about a half a
11 pound of shrimp after an extensive
12 dredging of the area and things of that
13 sort, and they were shipped to us, and I
14 believe we analyzed them.
15 Q. Do you recall the results of that
16 analysis?
17 A. No, sir, I do not.
18 Q. Was the unit that leaked an air
19 compressor unit?
20
MR. ZIMMER:
It assumes facts not in
21 evidence.
22
A. I don't recall.
'
23 Q. Is Pydraul AC used in air compressors?
24 A. I don't recall specifically.
25 Q. What about Pydraul 625?
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
340
A . I don't recall.
Q. Are Pydraul AC and Pydraul 625
PCB-containing compounds ---------
PCB-conta i ning substances? I'm sorry
A. I believe that they're PCB-containing
fluids.
I don't know how much or which
or any of that kind of thing.
Q. I refer you to the second sentence of
that paragraph that reads, "I also feel.,
that Aroclor 1242 should not be used in
replacement formulations."
Do you recall
writing that?
A. No, sir,
I do not.
Q. Do you recall communicating that to
anyone?
A. No, sir,
I don't.
Q. What about the second half of the first
sentence, going back a step, where it
says, "I would suggest that we step up
our efforts at finding immediate
replacement formulations for Pydraul AC
and Pydraul 625."
Do you remember
discussing or communicating that with
anyone?
A . No, sir.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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341
1 Q. Going to the third sentence, it reads,
2 "If this were done, I firmly believe that
3 in a short period of time analysts would
4 soon be reporting Aroclor 1242 as a
5 significant water pollutant thus
6 seriously endangering a market which so
7
far has not been questioned."
Do you
8 remember communicating that or discussing
9 that with anyone?
10 A. No, sir, I don't.
11 Q. Does this memo trigger any recollection
12 of discussing any of these topics?
13 A. Are you referencing the last paragraph of
14
the Exhibit?
It does not trigger any
15 specific recollection of discussing these
16 topics with anybody.
17 Q. Any general recollection?
18 A. Not --------- well, these kinds of things were
19 discussed, but I don't recollect
20
discussing these things specifically.
I
21 don't recollect discussing Pydraul AC,
22
625.
I do not recallect this.
23
Q.
What kind of things?
Do you mean things
24 like replacement formulations for
25 PCB-containing products?
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043447
342
1 A . Yes. 2 Q . What do you remember about your
3 d i s c u s s i o n s on that topic? 4 A . In a lot o f applications where the safety 5 And s o m e o f the other items that were 6 i n h e r e n t t o PCB weren't needed, but that 7 PCB s were u s ed because they had good 8 p h y s i cal properties and things of that 9 sort, because of the outside chance that 10 there may have been some problems, the 11 other types of materials were being 12 looked at to substitute for those 13 formulations, especially when we were 14 dealing with formulations that were 15 uncontrolled in any way, shape or form, 16 and I believe we touched on one earlier, 17 the NCR situation. 18 Q By "substitute," do you mean substitutin' 19 a non-PCB-containing product for a 20 PCB-containing product? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q Do you remember ha ving those discussions 23 about the time or about the date that's 24 listed on this memo on September, 1969? 25 No, sir.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043448
343
1 Q I want to turn back to Exhibit Three
'2
Fifty-one just very briefly.
The firs
3 column on the first page had t ha t
4
reference of PS Out N u mb e r N 6 9 / .
You
5 mentioned that that1's not a log number
6
---------that's
not a number that you would
7 have kept at the Monsanto labs?
8 I believe I stated that it's not a ---------
9
not a number that I recognized as a
.
10 Monsanto number, or that I recognized.
11 Q Did Monsanto use a numbering system for 12 its samples that was different from this?
13
Not specifically.
This --------- to clarify
14 this --------- this may have been the numbers
15 that were put on the labels by the people
16
who sent the samples.
I mean, it's just
17 merely identification that means
18
something to somebody.
And that
19
hopefully is unique to the sample.
But I
20 do not recognize this, as I said earlier,
21
as a Monsanto number.
I mean, like MCS I
22 would recognize as Monsanto Corporation
23
Sample.
Or OS is Outside Sample, or
24
things like this.
PS Out Number --------- No.
25 I assume number --------- N69 slash means
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043449
1 '2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
344
Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.
Q. A.
Q.
nothing to me.
Did you ---------
It doesn't trigger anything Monsantoish
t o me .
Did your group in your lab have a system
for keeping track of samples?
Yes.
Could you describe that system?
To the best of my recollection, the
..
system was instituted when a large number
of samples began to come in from
customers and from all kinds of different
locations.
And the samples when received
were logged into a log book by the
technician who received them.
Who was that technician?
It could have been any number of the
people that I've mentioned previously,
Jerry Litschgi, Bill Meaz.
There was
another gentleman by the name Ben
Litchtenburg, or something like that.
I
can't remember.
His name was "Nick" ---------
was his nickname he went by.
And these were people who worked in your
group?
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043450
345
1 A . Yes.
2 Q. Do you know what happened to that log
3 book?
4 A. No, sir.
5 Q. Was it kept at the lab in St. Louis?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Do you remember what it looked like?
8 A. No, sir.
9
Q. Dr. Tucker, have you everheard of
the
10 Texas Eastern Transmission Company or
11 Texas Eastern Corporation?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How did you hear of them?
14 A. Not too long ago I read about them in C
15 and E News.
16 Q. Did you ever hear about Texas Eastern
17 while you were working at Monsanto?
18 A. Not to my recollection.
19 Q. Did you have any contact with any
20 individual from Texas Eastern?
21 A. Not to my recollection.
22 Q. Do you remember discussing Texas Eastern?
23 A. No, sir.
' '= * 24 Q. What about Transwestern Pipeline
25 C o mpany?
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043451
346
1 A . No, sir.
' 2 Q. Have you ever heard the term
3 "Transwestern" outside the context of
4 this lawsuit? 5 A . No , sir.
6 Q Are you familiar with a product called 7 MCS 15 3 or Turbinol 153?
8 A . No , sir.
9 Q Are you familiar with a product called 10 81 or OS 91?
11 A . No .
12 Q. Were you aware while you worked at
13 Monsanto that Monsanto was selling
14 PCB-containing lubricants for gas
15 turbines and natural gas compressors?
16 A. Not specifically.
17 Q. Did you have any general knowledge of
18 that?
19
A. No.
I wouldn't say I did.
I had no need
20 to know, no reason to know, no reason to
21 care in my function with Monsanto.
22 Q. Were you ever called upon to test samples
23 from Texas Eastern's equipment or plants
24 or Transwestern's equipment or plants?
25 A. The group that I ran may have. We tested
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043452
347
1 samples from a large number of customers.
2 I don't recollect it specifically.
3 Q D o you remember ever getting a sample 4 from Texas Eastern or Transwestern?
5 A . No , sir.
6 Q I f you did receive such a sample, would 7 i t be reflected in the log book?
8
MR . ZIMMER:
Calls for speculation
9 A . I f the log book was being used at that
10 time, I assume it would have been
11 standard operating procedure to put it
12
in.
There were any number of ways in
13 which sample receipt and things of that
14
sort were documented.
Sometimes we used
15 to get a work request for analysis from
16 the people submitting and things of that 17 sort, and that would be used as the
18
documentation.
If there was a log book
19 and we were logging those samples into it
20 it would be in that log book.
21 Q Other than the log book, what were some
22
other ways that you kept
records of
23 samples? 24 There were work requests that were
25
submitted by people that
were in the
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043453
348
1 groups that we provided analytical
2
support to.
Usually they were triplicate
3 copy things or something like that, and I
4 can't remember if they were NCR
5
carbonless carbon paper or not.
Very
6
frankly, I don't think they were.
But we
7 would get a copy of it, and they would
8 keep a copy of it, and we would keep
9
those as records sometimes.
We also
10 might attach those to the report and file
11 it with the report that was provided back
12 to the customer whoever our client
13 happened to be, the customer being used
14
as internal.
We didn't provide that
15 information externally.
16 Q. Meaning another division or department of
17 Monsanto?
18 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
19 Q. Did you ever get unsolicited samples from
20 customers or other outside companies
21 other than Monsanto asking for analyses?
22 A. The samples I would- get would have to
23 come through somebody prior to reaching
24
us.
They would not come directly to us
25 unless they were prearranged agreements.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043454
349
1 Q. Meaning it would have to go through
2 someone else at Monsanto?
3 A . Right.
4 Q. Did those work requests have a specific
5 form that you could recognize if you saw
6 it ?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were copies of those stored at the lab?
9 A. I believe so.
10 Q. Do you know what happened to them?
11 A. No, sir, I do not.
12
MR. KASHANI:
Let's take a break.
13 (OFF RECORD)
14
MR. KASHANI:
I'll introduce two
15
more documents.
Let's introduce
16 them both together.
17 (Thereupon the Court Reporter
18 marked the pertinent document as
19 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS NUMBERS 353A
20 AND 3 5 4 - A ) .
21 Q . D r . T u c k e r, I'm showing you Exhibit
22 and 3 5 4 , and ask you if you r e c o g n i
23 either of these Exhibits?
24 A . Give me a chance to review --
25 Q . Sure
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043455
350
1 A . ---------please.
'2 Q. Of course. Take as long as you want.
3 A. Okay. (The witness peruses the
4 documents).
5 Q. Do you recognize either of these
6 documents ?
7 A. Not specifically.
8 Q. Do you have any general recollection of
9 the subject matter?
_
10 A. I generally recognize the Monthly Summary
11 memo and generally recognize the subject
12 matter in the other memo.
13 Q. The Monthly Summary memo is Exhibit 354,
14 and the other memo is Exhibit 353.
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Monthly summary, is that something you
17 prepared every month?
18 A . Yes, sir.
19 Q. And what was the purpose of the Monthly
20 Summaries ?
21 A. To document and update Keller where we
22
were at.
To justify our existence.
23 Q. Was Exhibit Three Fifty-four one of those
24 Monthly Summaries?
' V*
25 A. It appears to be so, yes.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043456
351
1 Q. And did all of your Monthly Summaries
2 follow the same general format?
3 A. As best Ican recollect, yes.
4 Q. Were these summaries something you did in
5 the ordinary course of your business ---------
6 ordinary course of your work at Monsanto?
7 A . Yes.
8 Q. And can weassume that it was important
9 to your work there that the summaries be
10
as accurate as possible?
As accurate as
11 you could make them?
12 A . Yes.
13
Q. Going back to Exhibit 353,
this refers
14 to " Aroclors having been applied to soil
15 and test plots at the University of
16
Florida on the 28th of June, 1939."
I'm
17
referring to the firstsentence
in
18
Exhibit 353.
What was that all about?
19 A. I don't recall what it was all about.
20 This occurred six months before I was
21 born.
22 Q. Oh, I don't mean the application of the
23 soils, but ---------
24 A. I'm sorry, but I don't recall what it was
25 about.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043457
352
1 Q. Do you remember receiving samples from
2 test plots that had been exposed to
3 Aroclors in 1939?
4 A. I believe we did, yes.
5 Q. And after simple preparation did you
6 analyze those samples?
7 A. I do not recall it specifically, but I
8 believe we probably did.
9 Q. Do you remember the results?
_
10 A. Not specifically, no, sir.
11 Q. Do you remember if you detected any PCBs
12 in those soils?
13 A. Not specifically.
14 Q. Do you have any general recollection?
15 A. If they put them in there, we probably
16 detected them.
17 Q. By "put them in there," do you mean if
18 --------- by putting them in there you mean
19 applying --------- when whoever it was applied
20 Aroclors to the soil plots in 1939?
21 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
22 Q. And by "We probably saw them," do you
23 mean that after you analyzed these soil
24 plots after --------- I guess we're talking
25 about thirty years --------- you still detected
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043458
353
1 the presence of PCBs in those soil plots?
'2 A . It is possible. And the reason I say
3 that is, although I don't have details,
4 from the memo it states that they were
5 using this as termite deterrents or
6
something of that sort.
So I would
7 imagine that they were applied at some
8 very gross high level, and having that
9 much Aroclor in there would make it, you
10 know, such a sterile environment that it
11 would be just like putting it in a jar.
12 Q. And the Aroclors was essentially
13 unaffected after thirty years?
14
MR. ZIMMER:
Lacks foundation.
15 Calls for speculation.
16 A. I don't recall specifically.
17 Q. Do you recall generally detecting any
18 Aroclor in these samples?
19 A. Not in these specific samples. I'd have
20 to see some documentation, some r ep o rt or
21 something of that sort to ---------to
22
specifically recall' this.
I don' t
23 specifically recall the details o f these
24
samples.
We analyzed a lot.
25 I'm going to refer you to Exhibit 354, in
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043459
354
1
the last paragraph on page one.
It's
2
TRAN 058742.
It reads, "Forty-five
3 Aroclor treated soil samples from a
4 Florida test plot have been provided by
5
the Agricultural Division.
The Aroclor
6
was placed in these plots in 1938."
Is
7 that referring to the same plots as
8 Exhibit 353?
9 A. I don't know for sure. If I had to
10
guess. I would.
I don ' t know .
The dates
11
are different.
One s a y s ' 3 9 in the memos
12
that I have and one s a y s '38.
As I
13 stated. we analyzed a lot o f s amp 1e s over
14 the eleven years or so that I was at
15 Monsanto.
16 Q. Going back to Exhibit 353, this refers to
17 plots which were laced or exposed to
18 Aroclors approximately thirty years
19 before the date of the memo and they were
20 sent for analysis. Do you remember
21 analyzing any plots of this type, soil
22 samples that were exposed to Aroclor
23 many, many years before the analysis?
24 A. I do not remember specifically analyzing
25 these samples, as I've stated earlier.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043460
355
1 Q. . Do you have any general recollection of
2 these samples?
3
A. Yes.
I have a general recollection of
4 samples from a poison test plot for
5 termites in Florida.
6 Q. And, do you recall the results of those
7 analyses?
8 A. No, sir, I do not.
9 Q. Do you recall if you detected any PCBs at
10 all?
11 A. I just stated I do not recall.
12 Q. Would you have been surprised if you had
13 found no PCBs in those plots?
14
A. In which plots?
The ones in Florida?
15 Q. The reference in Exhibit 353.
16 A. Looking at the memo --------- what I need to
17 know the levels that they were laced
18
with; okay.
And if I knew the levels,
19 and they were inordinately high, which I
20 suspicion they are, I would have been
21 surprised if we did not detect the PCBs
22
in there.
In one of the four situations
23 mentioned here, the 5442, I would have 24 been surprised if we detected PCBs in 5 '
25 that since it's a terphenyl.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043461
356
1 Q. Meaning if they had put Aroclor 5442
'2 there wouldn't be PCBs because it is not
3 a polychlorinated biphenyl?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. But, turning to the second paragraph of
6 Exhibit 353, it says, Aroclors 1242,
7 1248, and 1254 were mixed in test soil
8 (one cubic foot per plot) at two rates of
9
application and in replicate spots."
.
10 Would you have been surprised to detect
11 Aroclors 1242, 1248, or 1254 in these
12 plots?
13
MR. ZIMMER:
Lacks foundation.
14 Incomplete --------- hypothetical, if you
15 will.
16 A . I would neithe r have been surprised nor
17
unsurprised.
I don't -- I don't - -- I'm
18 not sure why I would get emotional over
19
the situation or be s
led by it.
20 Q . D o you recall writing up any report o f
21 the analyses o f these test plots?
22 A . No , sir, I do not.
23 Q . Do you recall publishing any papers that
24 ref er to these plots?
25 A . No , sir, I do not.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043462
357
1 Q. Earlier I pointed out a memo with your
'2 name on it which referred to proving that
3
Aroclor 1242 was biodegradable.
If you
4 had found that these test plots did not
5 contain any Aroclor 1242 after thirty
6 years, would that have contributed
7 towards the goal of proving that Aroclor
8 1242 was biodegradable?
9 A . "Yes" and "no."
.
10 Q . How so?
11 A. First of all, if the Aroclors were
12 introduced into this soil, and if it was
13 a sandy Florida soil or whatever it was,
14 which is pretty sterile to begin with,
15 and they were introduced at, say, a 25
16 percent incorporation level by weight or
17 something of that sort, and I didn't find
18 them there, I would have been very
19 surprised if we analyzed them, okay,
20 because under those kinds of conditions,
21 I would not expect, from what I knew
22 about those materials at that point in
23 time. that they would go away c omp1e t e1y,
24 and that'you wouldn't see portions of it.
25 So, it really would depend upon the
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043463
358
1 overall total picture as to whether or
2 not that type of information would
3 support or deny the biodegradabi1ity of a
4
material.
There are a number of
5 variables that determine whether a
6
material biodegrades or not.
If you take
7 and put Aroclor 1242 in a five gallon can
8 and put it in a warehouse for 15 0 years.
9 I will guarantee you when you come back
10 and look in that warehouse if it's still
11 there, and the can's still there, and you
12 look inside, you probably will find what
13 you put in there.
14 Q. You mean the Aroclor 1242?
15
A. That's correct.
And I would not use that
16 as evidence that the material wasn't
17 biodegradable, because that's totally out
18 of context, totally out of perspective of
19
how the biological systems work.
If, on
20 the other hand, they had spiked these
21 soils which were not just pure sand or
22 something of that sort, but soils that
23 had significant biological activity,
24 organics available and things of that
25 sort, and spike them at very low levels.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043464
359
1 when I came back and I analyzed those
2 soils, I'd be willing to speculate ---------
3 not beyond a shadow of a doubt ---------- that
4 this along ----------- if they weren't there when
5 I analyzed them and especially if they
6 were just, you know, very altered or very
7 different ---------- I would be willing to
8 speculate and combine that information
9 with a variety of other information from
10 different sources and talk about the
11
relative biodegradabi1ity of them.
It's
12 not a yes/no and on/off situation.
13 Q You mentioned a paper that you had
14 written in the seventies which reflected
15 that Aroclor 1242 was biodegradable to
16
some extent.
Did you use the results of
17 these soil tests in that paper?
18 A . No, sir.
19
MR. ZIMMER:
That mischaracter i zes
20 his testimony about the paper too.
21 A . Well, regardless of the
22 mischaracterization. or whatever---------
23 Q Do you know the paper I'm referring to?
24 A . I know the paper I published, yes, and
25 that information from the soil test plots
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043465
360
1 was not used in there since it wasn't ---------
2
didn't have anything to do with it.
I'm
3 not even sure the data was available at
4 the time the paper was published, but
5 even if it had been it had no bearing on
6
it.
I wasn't a controlled test.
7-
(OFF RECORD)
8
MR. KASHANI:
Next Exhibit.
9
(Thereupon the Court Reporter
..
10 marked the pertinent document as
11 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 355-A).
12 (OFF RECORD)
13
Q. I'll hand youanother
Exhibit.
I'm
14 handing you what has been marked as
15 Exhibit 355, and ask you to review that.
16 A . Okay.
17 Q. Do you recognize this document?
18 A . N o , s i r .
19 Q. This document refers to a meeting which
20
took place on June 30, 1970.
On the face
21 of the document, it refers to such a
22
meeting.
Do you recall any such meeting?
23 A . No, sir.
' 'V ' 24 Q. It says that those present at the meeting
25 were R. Munch, R. Keller, E.S. Tucker,
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043466
361
1
V.W. Saeger, and E.M. Emery.
Does that
2 trigger any recollection of the meeting?
3 A . No, sir.
4
MR. KASHANI:
Let's go off the
5 record for a second.
6 (OFF RECORD)
7 Q. Dr. Tucker, I asked you earlier about
8 when it was that Monsanto first proposed
9 or when it was that it was first
10 d i s c u s s e d or you first heard about the
11
p o s s i bility of produci ng MCS 10 16.
Does
12 this memo trigger any r e c o 1 1 e c t i o n about
13 when that replacement product was f i r s t
14 p r o p o s e d ?
15
No, s i r .
As a matter of fact , i n
16 r e v i e wing the memo, I d i d n ' t see an y 17 me n t i on of i t .
18 Q. Does Aroclor 1242B mean anything to you?
19 A. I believe I stated earlier when asked
20 that question that it did not.
21 Q. What about Aroclors 1230B?
22 A . N o , s i r .
23 Q. Now, going back to the first page, the
24 document --------- this is TRAN 038874 ---------- on
25 about the --------- mid-paragraph --------- you have
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043467
362
1 a paragraph that begins with the words
2
"Presently Known" underlined.
And then it
3
reads, "Presently known:
Thecomposition
4 of both standard Aroclor and the
5 replacement products by isomers and/or
6
chlorine level."
Do you know what that's
7 referring to?
8
MR. ZIMMER:
Calls for speculation
9 and lacks foundation.
10 Q Is that a correct statement as of July 7,
11 1 9 7 0 ?
12 A . No, sir.
13 Q
14
s in correct about i t ?
MR . ZIMMER:
What does the
15 s t a t erne nt say, for starters,
16
C o u n s e1?
He's never seen th
17 b e f o re and it w a s n ' t written
18
MR . KASHANI:
He ' s just sai
19 i n c o rrect, and I've asked hi
20
--------- we've moved on.
I mean, I've
21 asked him what's ---------
22
MR. ZIMMER:
Well, I haven't moved
23 o n .
24
MR. KASHANI:
--------- incorrect on
25 that.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043468
363
1
MR. ZIMMER:
I'm still puzzled
2
about what the question is.
You're
3 asking him to interpret something
4 somebody else wrote.
5
MR. KASHANI:
You're not answering
6
the questions.
Dr. Tucker said that
7 . this was incorrect.
8
MR. ZIMMER:
Well, something about
9 the way he reads it is incorrect,
10 but we don't know what was in the
11
mind of the author.
That's the
12
problem.
He can tell you what he
13 thinks is incorrect about it.
14 That's fine.
15 Q. What's incorrect about it?
16 A. At this date in 1970, and even to this
17 date today, we do not know, by complete
18 definition, all the isomers and/or
19 chlorine levels that are present in any
20 and all of the Aroclor products ---------
21 products as they were manufactured then.
22 So, I find this to be incorrect, and I
23 find it to be a statement made by an
24 individual who didn't understand what
25 we're talking about here today.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043469
364
1 Q. Who is that individual?
2 A . Ed Emery.
3 Q . He ' s the fellow who signed this memo? 4 A . It ' s the person who this memo is from.
5 Q . You said you didn't recognize the memo 6 How do you know that this memo is from
7 Mr . Emery and that - --
8 A. Because up at the top it says, "From.:
9 Name and Location: E.M. Emery", so I'm
10 assuming that if the memo is an accurate
11 memo --------- and that's conjecture --------- that
12 it's from who it says it's from, who is
13
Ed Emery.
And Ed Emery --------- I know Ed
14 Emery and I know his knowledge of the
15 situation, and I don't think that he knew
16 what h e was saying here 17 When w e encounter memos o f this type that
18 say " From" and a name. can we ass ume that
19 the memo is accurate, as you are doing
20 now, that the memo came from the name
21 listed after the "From"?
22
MR. ZIMMER:
Do not answer that.
23 We are not going to make any
24 a s s u mp tions.
25
MR. KASHANI:
I'm not entitled to
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043470
365
1 make the same assumption Dr. Tucker
'2
is making?
Dr. Tucker is assuming
3 this memo is from Mr. Emery because
4
5
MR. ZIMMER:
Dr. Tucker is going
6
7
MR. KASHANI:
it says -----------
8
MR. ZIMMER:
--------- beyond what he has
9 to do in responding to your
10 questions, and he is assisting you
11 in trying to figure out something
12
that I'mabout to
cut off, because
13 his job is to sit here and answer
14 your questions and not guess,
15 speculate, or assume.
16
MR. KASHANI:
Dr. Tucker said that
17 this memo is from Mr. Emery, based
18 on the fact that Mr. Emery is listed
19 after the "From" line on this memo.
20
MR. ZIMMER:
Right.
21
MR. KASHANI:
And I'm entitled to
22 explore ---------
23
MR. ZIMMER:
And he's not going to
24 do any other assuming ----------
25
MR. KASHANI:
I'm entitled to
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043471
366
1 explore why - -- the b a si s of that.
'2
MR . ZIMMER:
He said he assumes
3 that because his name is there, that
4 he mu st have written the memo if it
5 wa s actually written and if it went
6 out as it shows. You can interpret
7 the memo just a s well as Dr. Tucker
8 can in terms of whether it ever was
9
sent or not.
That's as far as we '
10 g o i n g to go.
11 Q . This me mo is similar to other memo s of
12
this type that we've seen today.
On
13 memos of that type where it writes the
14 "From " 1 i ne from that person, does that
15 indicate that person wrote the memo?
16
MR. ZIMMER:
Lacks foundation.
17 Calls for speculation.
18 Q . Was someone running around Monsanto
19 putting other people's names on memos?
20 A . I wouldn't know that.
21
MR. ZIMMER:
I'll be happy to tell
22
you probably not.
But why are we
23 wasting time with this?
24
MR. KASHANI
Because we are
25 encountering difficulty
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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367
1 authenticating documents, and we're
'2 seeking any way that we can
3 establish who wrote documents and
4 when they were written.
5
MR. ZIMMER:
Well, you can't
6 establish who wrote this document
7 through somebody that didn't write
8 it and doesn't remember seeing it
9
before.
As soon as you find that .
10 out, you should move on.
11 A. Let me categorically state that I could
12 not validate that this document was
13 written --------- ever written, or by who it's
14 written, or that any people on this
15 distribution, list really received it---------
16
MR. ZIMMER:
He knows that.
17 A. ----------- and that includes me who is on there,
18 and I've already stated that I don't
19
recognize this document specifically.
I
20 don't understand what the issue is here.
21 If you're trying to get me to say
22 something that I don't want to say, or
23 that I can't say, or that's'not true, I
24
have a problem with that.
So, what is
25 the issue here?
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1
MR. ZIMMER:
Let's just let him ask
2 his questions.
3 Q. You stated that Mr. Emery was not
4 entirely correct when he made the
5 statement on this memo, and I'm just
6 asking how you know that Mr. Emery said
7
that,
or whatcauses you to say that Mr.
8 Emery said that?
9
MR. ZIMMER:
He gave you his
10 interpretation of a particular
11 sentence in a memo, which I probably
12
shouldn't have let him go
that far
13 to do since he disclaimed any prior
14 knowledge of it or who wrote it. But
15 we're talking in circles here now,
16 because he's not going to do any
17
more assuming for you.
Now,
if you
18
havea question about
a subject
19
matter in the memo,
if you can
20 refresh his recollection about it or
21 something, that's fine.
22 Q. Was your basis for saying Dr. Emery wrote
23
this was the fact that Dr. Emery,
or E.M.
24 Emery is listed on the front line of this
25 memo?
'
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 A. That was my only basis.
2 Q. Referring again to this phrase. I
3 understand your testimony that even today
4 we do not know 100 percent, completely,
5 the complete isomerization --------- the
6 complete composition of every Aroclor.
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. But as of the time of this memo, July,
9
1970, did you know the approximate
_
10 composition of the Aroclors?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you know that each Aroclor contained
13 a mixture of homologs and isomers?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you know that each Aroclor contained
16 biphenyls with different numbers of
17 chlorines ?
18 A. That's what homologs and isomers are.
19 Q. Your answer is "yes"?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you know at that time that, for
22 example, Aroclor 1242 contained biphenyls
23 with different numbers of chlorines?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Let's move on.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1
MR. KASHANI:
Exhibit next in
'2 order.
3 (Thereupon the Court Reporter
4 marked the pertinent document as
5 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 356-A)
6 A . Okay.
7 Q. Do you recognize this Exhibit 356?
8 A. Not specifically.
9
Q.
Is that your signature at the bottom?
.
10 A. It appears to be.
11 Q. Do you have any general recollection of
12 the topic matter of the Exhibit?
13 A . Yes.
14 Q. It's second sentence of the first
15 paragraph refers to, "Also included are
16 samples of two blends of distillation
17
cuts from Aroclor 1142."
What is Aroclor
18 114 2?
19 A. I don't recall.
20 Q. I want to refer you back to an earlier
21 Exhibit, 326, and refer you to page ---------
22 well, it's numbered page on, what is page
23 TRAN 006987, and ask you to read that
24 first paragraph.
v'
25
A.
(Witness complies with request).
Okay.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 Q . Does that refresh your recollection as to
2 what was Aroclor 1142?
3 A . No, sir.
4 Q. What is a distillation cut from Aroclor
5
1142?
Referring back to Exhibit 356.
6 A. "Distillation" usually refers to a
7 process whereby a mate rial is heated up
8 and components that ar e present in that
9 material, if it's a mu lti-component
10
mixture, vaporize.
If those materials
11 are collected for a pe riod of time and
12 represent a portion of what was
13 originally being disti lied, then what you
14 have is a fraction or a cut---------
15 distillation cut.
16 Q. Do you mean, in the context of Aroclors,
17 that through distillation, certain
18 components of the Aroclor could be
19 removed?
20 A. Correct. And I mean that in terms of 21 gasoline and petroleum and everything
22 that the engineering concept of
23 distillation is employed for, including
24 water .
25 Q. To refer to the rest of the sentence ---------
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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372
1 the full sentence --------- and this is the
'2 second sentence, first paragraph of
3 Exhibit 356, it reads, "Also included are
4 samples of two blends of distillation
5 cuts from Aroclor 1142, prepared by R.
6 Munch, to see if elimination of the
7 higher chlorinated isomers would make a
8 product which would be more
9
biodegradable."
Do you know what that's
10 referring to?
11 A. Based on the document that you just had
12 me review ---------
13 Q. Refer ---------
14 A . I---------
15 Q. Referring back to Exhibit 326?
16 A. I believe that's the thick one --------- the
17 one that deals with the product
18 specifications and how they make it and
19 that kind of stuff?
20 Q. Yes. How they make Aroclor.
21 A. That's the first time that I understood
22
that 11 meant crude biphenyl.
I've
23 always understood that 12, in the 1242 or
24 1221, meant the finished product, but I
25
never knew that the 11 did.
So, based on
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 that, and this information, I would say
'2 that Ralph Munch either did or had crude
3 Aroclor 1242, which would be 1142
4 fractionated through distillation, and
5 collected those cuts and made them
6 available.
7 Q . And did he remove the higher chlorinated
8 isomers from the crude Aroclor 1242?
9
MR . ZIMMER:
Calls for speculation
10 Lacks foundation.
11 A . It implies it in the memo that I'm
12 reading.
13
MR . ZIMMER:
See, that's the
14 dilemma.
15
THE WITNESS :
Yeah, I ---------
16
MR . ZIMMER:
He's asking you what
17 your memory i s .
18 A . Okay. My memory does not contain that
19 information, but it implies it in the
20 memo that you 1v e asked me to read.
21 Q Referring to--------- recall yesterday we
22 discussed MCS 1016 and the process by
23 which MCS 1016 -- -
24 A . Yes.
25
Q
-------- is produced?
Does that also, at one
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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374
1 point, involve crude Aroclor 12 4 2 ?
'2 A . It could, but I don't know that. For
3 example, I don't know what 10 stands for.
4 Do you know what 10 stands fo r f r o m any
5
review of the documents?
I'd b e curious
6 because I don't.
7 Q Do you know what MCS 1016 stands for?
8 A . Yes, I know what --------- I know what MCS 10 16
9 is .
10 Q Right .
.
11 A . But I don't know what the 10 i s , for
12 example, like the 11 --------- the 1 2 I do
13 know.
14 Q Do you remember running any - -- this memo
15 refers to samples of two blen d s o f
16
distillation cuts from 1142.
D o you
17 remember running any tests on those
18 samples?
19 A . No, sir.
20 Q. Do you remember if, at the time of the 21 date listed on this memo --------- this is 22 Exhibit 356, you had the ability --------- and
23 by "you," I mean the laboratories at
24 Monsanto --------- I'm asking for your
25
knowledge and what you knew.
Did the
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 laboratories at Monsanto have the ability
'2 to remove the PCBs with more chlorine on
3
them from a batch of Aroclor?
.
4 A. Yes. They probably had the capability.
5 Q. Through this distillation process that
6 you discussed?
7 A. (Witness nods head in the affirmative).
8 Yes.
9
Q. Going down to the third paragraph of
.
10 Exhibit 356, it reads, "Do your
11 micro-organisms, once adapted to 12 biphenyl, require further feeding on
13 biphenyl to continue degrading the
14
chlorinated biphenyls."
Do you know what
15 the "your" is referring to?
16 A. I believe it's referring to organisms
17 that the Ruabon people were using to
18 study degradeabi1ity.
19 Q. Was Mr. Lidgett --------- L-i-d-g-e-t-t --------- in
20 Ruabon? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And was he doing work on biodegradation
23 of PCBs ?
?' *
24 A. I don't know if he was specifically doing
25
it or if he was supervising it.
He was
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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376
1 associated with it.
2 Q. And do you remember the subject matter of
3 that question which is in the third
4 paragraph of Three, Fifty-six relating to
5 the micro-organisms?
6 A . Yes.
7 Q. And what do you remember about that?
8 A. I remember that it had to do with the
9 concept of co-metabo 1ism which I
10 mentioned earlier. 11 Q. Do you remember getting an answer to this
12 question?
13
A. No, sir,
I do not.
14
Q. Just to
refresh my memory, is this
15 referring to having some biphenyl in the
16 mix to, let's say, facilitate the
17 biodegradation of the Aroclor?
18 A. Yes. In-two ways.
19 Q. What are those ways?
20
A. One way,
in that the biphenyl molecule
21 without any chlorines on it is easier for
22 less resistance and less unusual for
23
bacteria to encounter.
So, when the
24 bacteria encounter that they develop the
25 appropriate enzyme systems to use that as
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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377
1 both a carbon source and as an energy
2
source.
If that material is continuously
3 provided to them and it's their only
4 source of energy, or it's a significant
5 source of energy and/or building blocks,
6 in terms of the feed they're receiving,
7 they'll continue to develop the enzymes
8 that are required to metabolize those
9
things.
If it's withdrawn they may not.
10 Q. Meaning if the biphenyl is withdrawn?
11 A. Correct. So, if you were to take those 12 organisms and adapt them on biphenyl so
13 that they could oxidize biphenyl and then
14 begin feeding them chlorinated biphenyls
15 they would probably metabolize the
16 chlorinated biphenyls, but they may quit
17 if they are not continued to be --------- if
18 they are not continually provided with
19 the easier carbon and energy source
20
biphenyl.
And if that happens, then of
21
course, they wouldn't degrade those.
So,
22 the other thing is is that the bug
23 population needs a n energy source that
24 can keep up with i t so it can stay viable
25 and not only use the energy source that
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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378
1 it's getting to stay viable but also to
2 co-metabolize other things, and that's
3 what that's meant by.
4 Q. Is a biphenyl molecule a PCB molecule
5 without any chlorine on it?
6 A. You could describe it that way, yes.
7 Q. And --------- I don't want to mischaracterize
8 what you said, so I'm trying to put it in
9 layman's terms. You understand my
10 problem? 11 A. Yeah. That's fine.
12 Q. Is it correct to say with your
13 description that by supplying some
14 biphenyl initially the micro-organisms
15 --------- the bacteria ------ become used to
16 eating, as it were, the biphenyl and this
17 enables them more readily to digest and
18 degrade the PCB?
19 A. Yes. It allows us in the laboratory to
20 speed the process up so that we can
21 observe the degradation in the time that
22
we have to monitor it.
The same thing
23 would probably occur in the environment,
24 but it would take long periods of time.
25 By introducing the biphenyl and
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043484
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2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22
23 24 25
379
shortening ---------- short-circuiting the step
and making it go faster, we can observe
it on a real time basis.
That's what
that's all about.
Q.
How long is a
"long period of time"?
A. Relative to in the laboratory or relative
Q. A.
Q.
A.
Q A. Q A.
Yes.
Well, depends on how much money you've
got and how much time.
I mean, you know,
a month ---------- spending a month in studying
a particular isomer and the
biodegradabi1ity of it is a long time if
you've got 210 of them.
I guess my question is how ---------- by what
factor, or how much is the process of
biodegradation of PCB speeded up by
introducing biphenyl into the mix?
It ' s not necessarily that it speeds up
the process, but it causes its inception
t o occur earlier.
How much earlier?
It depends.
On what?
11 depends on the bugs, and it depends on
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043485
380
1 the temperature, and it depends on the
2 day of the week and where the bugs were
3 gotten, and it just depends on so many
4
variables that it's notpredictable.
But
5 it is known that it will and can speed
6 things up and that it well and can cause
7 co-metabolism.
8 Q So, the experiments you did in the
9 laboratory were more favorable towards
10
biodegradation than the
natural
11 environment ?
12
A.
No .
13
Q.
Is biphenyl available in the natural
14 environment ?
15
A.
Probably could be, yes.
16
Q.
Is it available in the quantities that
17 you used in the lab and the
18 concentrations that you used in your lab
19 tests?
20
A.
The biodegradation studies that were done
21 ---------- that were published ------------- were not
22 studies in which the biphenyl content of
23 the constituents were supplemented to
24 cause co-metabo1ism.
25
Q.
We'll get back to those studies -----------
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043486
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2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22
23 24 25
381
A.
I mean, that seems to imply that ---------- I
think you ---------- to me at least, you're
leaving on the table an accusation that
the biodegradation that we observed and
published was stimulated through
synthetic conditions, i.e. the additions
of biphenyls which was not the case.
Q.
But ----------- I know that there were other experiments without the biphenyl.
A. Q.
Okay. I understand that.
But the experiments
with the biphenyl ---------- you just described
those as synthetic conditions.
Is that
A.
an accurate term? They were synthetic conditions that the
biologists in Ruabon were using to
initiate the degradation of things.
Q.
By"synthetic" you mean it
was not ---------- a
condition that was not present in nature?
A.
No.
I mean that it was acondition
that
was put togethervin the laboratory.
I
don't know that i t couldn't be pres
nature too,.
S o , I mean, there'' s a
Q. A.
What ------------------- difference there.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22
23 24 25
382
Q.
Sure.
I understand.
What concentration
of biphenyl was typically used in the
experiments in which biphenyl was used to
trigger biodegradation?
A.
I don't recall.
Q.
Was it higher than what would commonly be
found in nature?
A.
I would doubt it, but I don't recall.
Q.
Is biphenyl a manufactured compound?
Is
it something that Monsanto made, for
e x a mp 1 e ?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Is it something that Monsanto synthesized
in the lab or extracted from nature
somehow?
A. Monsanto synthesized it in an operating
unit, a chemical plant.
Q.
Is it something that I could go out and
harvest in nature in commercial
quantities, meaning biphenyl?
A.
The kicker there is commercial
quantities.
What do you mean by
"commercial quantities"?
Q.
The quantities that Monsanto was selling
of biphenyl.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
383
A.
No.
That's why they manufactured it
synthetically.
That's why a number of
naturally occurring constituents are
manufactu red synthetically.
Q.
I'm t r yin g to get a feel for how common
biphe ny1 i s in nature.
Is it - --
A . I think i t ' s relatively common.
Q . Is it as common as salt, for example?
A . No .
Q . As common a s P CB s ? A . It might b e . You know, that's a n
interesti ng question.
It might b e .
Let's put i t to you this way.
Biphenyl
is two benzene rings.
Q.
Yes.
A.
How common is benzene in the natural
environment ?
Q.
I don't know.
A.
Very common.
And so, what I'm saying is
the probability of those two rings
combining, you know, in the petroleum
reservoirs under the ground at high
temperatures and pressures and things of
that sort is probably fairly high, and
so, certainly, I would say there might be
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043489
1 '2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
384
Q. A.
Q. A. Q A. Q.
part per million levels of biphenyl that
naturally occur in the environment from
that process.
And so, from that
conclusion ---------- if that were true.
This
is speculation ----------- since PCBs are at part
per billion levels and that kind of thing
in the environment, then they might be
equatable. Are those the concentrations you used in
the tests with biphenyl?
For ---------- we never ---------- the tests in the
United States, to my knowledge, we never
fed biphenyl in conjunction with the PCBs
to bring about this co-metabo1ism because
we got the materials to degrade with our
bugs without doing that.
Do you know what concentrations were used
in Ru abon----------
No, sir.
---------- concentrations of biphenyl?
I do not .
MR. ZIMMER:
Ruabon .
Ruabon.
Yes, it is Ruabon,
(OFF RECORD)
MR. KASHANI:
Let's go to the next
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043490
385
1 Exhibit.
.2 (Thereupon the Court Reporter
3 marked the pertinent document as
4 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 357-A).
5
Q.
Exhibit 357.
6
A.
(Witness peruses document).
Okay.
7
Q.
Do you recognize this document?
8
A.
Not specifically.
9
Q.
Do you have any general recollection of
10 it ?
'
11
A.
Yes.
12 Q. Who was Mr. Baxter ---------- R. Baxter?
13
A.
You know, as I recall, I think the
14 gentleman in that last memo ---------- what was
15
his name?
Liggett?
Lidgett?
16
Q.
Lidgett.
17
A.
Lidgett reported to Baxter.
18
Q.
Baxter was in charge of ---------- I suppose
19 among other things ---------- biodegration
20 studies ----------
21
A.
He could have been, yes.
22
Q.
There's some handwriting up at the ----------
23 under the ---------- I guess under the word
24
"Lidgett" on this document.
Do you
'
25 recognize that handwriting?
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
386
A.
No, sir.
Q.
Do you recognize the signature?
A.
Down at the bottom of the memo, is that
what you're talking about?
Q.
Yes.
A.
No, sir.
Q.
The fourth paragraph of this document
states ---------- well, let's go to the third
paragraph that reads, "The samples sent,,
by Scott Tucker have now arrived and we
shall be including these
bromoch1orobipheny1s in our subsequent
experiments."
Do you remember those
samples?
A.
Not specifically.
Q.
What's a "bromochlorobiphenyl"?
A.
Chemically, what that name means is is
that it's a biphenyl molecule that has
chlorine and bromine attached to it.
Bromine is just a higher atomic weight
halogen, just as, like iodine and
fluorine and astanine ---------- astatine or
whatever it is ---------- I always forget that
one.
Q.
Why did you send
was this a synthesized
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
387
molecule, bromochlorobiphenyl?
A. Q.
It probably was, yes. Do you remember when it was ---------- when
A.
Monsanto first synthesized it?
No,
sir.
Q.
Was there any particular reason to synthesize bromochlorobiphenyl?
A. Q. A.
Yes.
What was that reason?
.
I believe that people were interested in
seeing what would happen if you
substituted bromine for chlorine on biphenyl.
Q.
In that context,
were people at Monsanto,
to your knowledge, interested in seeing
if the resulting molecule ---------- I guess the resulting compound which had bromine as
well as chlorine on the biphenyl ---------- was more biodegradable than chlorine alone?
A.
They were interested in seeing how biodegradable it was, yes.
Q.
Do you remember if any tests were run to determine how biodegradable the substance
A.
was? Not specifically.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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388
Q A. Q A. Q
A.
Do you remember generally any tests?
In general, I think there probably were
some tests that were run.
Do you remember the results? No , sir.
S o , was this an attempt to see if a substance that was, I guess, similar t o PCB might be more biodegradable than PCB?
MR. ZIMMER:
Well, he hasn't said,
that it was indeed done.
He's
postulated for you why it might be
done. MR. KASHANI:
He said he has general
recollection that this was
synthesized and that tests were run.
I'm asking if he were aware that
there was any consideration on
Monsanto's part that substitution of
bromine for chlorine and producing a
molecule that contains bromine as
well as chlorine, sort of a PCB with
bromine, might be more biodegradable
than PCBs alone.
I think that's what they were trying to
find out.
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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389
Q.
Did they succeed?
A.
I don't know. MR. KASHANI:
This next Exhibit,
Number 358 ---------(Thereupon the Court Reporter
marked the pertinent document as
_ PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 358-A).
A. Q.
(Witness peruses document). Do you recognize this document?
A. Q.
Not this document specifically. Do you remember the experiment that seems
to be described in the document?
A.
Yes, I do .
Q.
Could you describe that experiment,
A.
please? There was some interest as to what might
happen to the polychlorinated biphenyls
used as encapsulation fluids in
carbonless carbon paper when the material
Q.
was burned openly. Carbonless carbon paper was a product
A.
produced by NCR? Among others.
Q.
And what was the result of the experiment?
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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390
A.
Q. A.
The experiment was a very preliminary
semi-quantitative initial experiment to
just see if the Aroclors were volatilized
or destroyed or anything of the sort in
---------- by burning in this manner.
Unfortunately, I noticed in here that
they used the word----------t hat
the word
"incineration" is used, and this wou1dn ' t
be considered incineration as we now
.
think about "incineration" today.
I
think that's important to note.
"Incineration" today referring to a much
higher temperature?
Oh, yeah, and very controlled conditions.
The experiment just consisted of taking
---------- creating an apparatus that you could
suck the smoke and particulates, et
cetera, off or a piece of paper that had
been set afire and pull that through
traps that were
filled with hexane,
in
which polychlorinated biphenyls were very
soluble, and so what you would end up
doing would volatilized
be capturing the ----------- any or vaporized or whatever
' V' PCBs
from the ---------- and other organics for that
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
HARTOLDMON0043496
391
1 matter too ----------- from the paper in the
2
trap.
And then the idea was to look in
3 the traps and see how much was there,
4
very roughly semi-quantitative1y.
And
5 then also look at the residual that was
6 left on the paper and just get a feeling
7 for what ---------- what happened when you did
8 this.
9
Q.
So, briefly, the experiment consisted of
10 burning some carbonless carbon paper from
11 NCR and seeing if by burning any ----------
12 among other things ---------- Aroclors were
13 released into the air?
14 A.Correct.
15
Q.
Did the carbonless carbon paper contain
16 Aroclor 1242?
17
A.
I don't recall specifically.
That would
18 be ---------- that would probably be correct.
19
Q.
Do you say that because of figure 2,
20 which is at TRAN 007551?
21
A.
Correct.
22
Q.
You usedAroclor
1242 as
a standard -----------
23
A.
Correct.
24 Q. ---------- to see if you could detect the same
25 Aroclor 1242 coming off from the carbon
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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392
paper?
A. Q.
Correct. Do you remember doing any other
experiments along these lines?
A.
No, sir.
Q.
Do you know if the results of this experiment were reported to NCR?
A.
No, sir.
MR. KASHANI:
Let's take
a break..
(OFF RECORD)
MR. KASHANI:
Exhibit 359.
(Thereupon the Court Reporter marked the pertinent document as
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 359-A).
Q.
I could ask you my question ----------- the
reason I'm bringing the Exhibit is I'm
wondering if you don't recall about the
Exhibit maybe it might trigger a
recollection.
A.
Is that a question?
MR. ZIMMER:
Not yet.
Q.
THE WITNESS:
Okay.
The question is do you recall discussing
or mentioning that ---------- to anyone at
Monsanto ---------- that the process that Jensen
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393
A. Q. A. Q.
A. Q A. Q A.
and Widmark used to analyze PCBs in the
environment might have been destroying
Aro clor 1242?
I don't recall it specifically.
Do you have any general recollection of
that issue?
No.
I have no general recollection of
that issue .
Let me refer you to page two of this
.
Exhibit, Exhibit 359.
It's almost the
last paragraph.
It begins with "Scott
Tucker."
It says, "Scott Tucker reported
that Aroclor 1242 could be destroyed by HNO3 ----------- and three is a subscript ---------slash H subscript 2 SO4 ----------- and the 4 is
a subscript ----------- treatment."
What's HNO3?
Nitric acid.
And what's H3SO4
Sulfuric acid.
And can these compounds destroy Aro clor
12 42 ?
Nitric acid can.
But that ---------- no.
"Yes"
and "no."
There really has to be a "yes "
and "no" in this , and it depends on the
conditions just like so many things i n
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394
life do.
And I can elaborate on the
chemical reaction of nitric acid and/or sulfuric acid with chlorinated biphenyls.
Q.
Let's see if we can restrict it a bit.
Were Jensen or Widmark using nitric acid
or sulfuric acid in their preparation of
samples for testing?
MR. ZIMMER:
Calls forspeculation.
Q. Basedontheirpapers?
A.
I don't recall.
I'd have to review the
papers again.
Q. Can nitric acid destroy Aroclors other
than 1242?
A. I would have to ask you what you meant by
Q.
"destroy."
.
Break down some of the PCBs such that
they would no longer be recognizable by
your detection equipment as PCBs?
A. Q.
Yes. Could nitric acid break down the lower
chlorinated PCBs?
A.
I'd have to ask you what you
mean by
"breakdown."
Q.
Break down the PCBs such that they are no
longer recognizable as PCBs in your
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395
detection equipment.
A. Q.
Yes. And, with that definition,
can nitric
acid break down the higher chlorinated
P CB s ?
A.
It's possible.
Q.
Under what conditions?
A.
Multiple conditions, usually high
concentrations of nitric acid, certain
periods of time ----------- the longer the better
---------- higher temperatures ---------- the higher
the better.
As I said, high
concentrations, the higher the better.
"Higher" in any of these cases means that
the reaction or the reagent, nitric acid
is more vigorous in its activity or
reaction with other organic molecules,
and so it depends on temperature, time,
and concentration.
Q.
I refer you back to Exhibit 319 which we earlier discussed, but which appears to
refer to Jensen and Widmark's methods or
some of their methods.
A.
Correct.
Is there something specific you
want me to look at, or would you like me
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396
Q.
A.
Q A. A. Q. A.
A.
to read it?
No.
Does that refresh your recollection
as to whether Jensen and Widmark were
using nitric acid or sulfuric acid in the
preparation of samples?
If you give me a chance to read this I
will tell you.
I don't see it on the
first page so I'm going to have to read
that if you would like me to accomplish
that objective.
Sure.
Okay.
Good.
(OFF RECORD)
Okay.
Were they using sulfuric acid or nitric
acid?
It appears in the second page, under ----------
MR. ZIMMER:
Doctor, before you ----------
the question was, does that refresh
your recollection as to whether they
were doing it.
He doesn't want you
to just read the document to him.
So, since you were starting to do
that----------
Yes, it says they were.
It does not say
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397
Q. A.
Q. A.
Q.
how frequently or whether it's done to
every sample or when.
And it seems to
imply that it's a confirmationa 1
technique.
What's a confirmat i ona 1 technique?
"Confirmational technique" means if
there's a question or a doubt, you might
institute a second test that would help
that if it passed that test,
would give
you two tests that indicated something
that might ---------- whether it was a PCB.
If
there was still some doubt, youmight try
a third confirmationa 1 test.
Okay.
And if you were really in doubt and you
had a mass spectrometer available to you
with a gas chromatograph hooked up to it,
you'd do it the right way and you'd use
the absolute identification technique ----------
mass spectrometry.
So the paper states ----------- the Exhibit
states that Jensen and Widmark were using
nitric acid and sulfuric acid as part of
a further test to detect the presence of
PCBs in their samples?
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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398
MR. ZIMMER:
The document speaks
for itself.
Do you want him to just
MR. KASHAN I:
I haven't had a
chance to read the document.
I mean
A.
A. Q. A. Q.
Yes.
MR. ZIMMER:
Well, you showed it to
him.
.
MR. KASHANI:
I haven't had a
chance to read that particular
portion.
MR. ZIMMER:
Well, I don't care
about that.
Would that be ----------
MR. KASHANI:
The question's been
answered.
We're going to move on.
Okay.
That's what the document
indicates.
Now, having read that, does that refresh
any recollection about the reference to
nitric acid and sulfuric acid in Exhibit
359 ---------- on page two, 359?
Yes.
And what was your recollection now that
it has been refreshed?
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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399
Q
A. Q. A. Q.
A. Q.
The recollection is that we wanted to
assure ourselves that this type of
treatment ---------- not assure ourselves ----------- we
wanted to know whether this type of
treatment in any way, shape, or form
could affect what you saw in samples that
were treated this way.
You mean you wanted to assure yourselves
---------- and this is relating back to
.
approximately the time of the memo in
1 96 9?
Could be.
By "the memo," I mean Exhibit 359.
Yeah.
May 13th, 1969 is the date on the
memo that I've been provided.
What I mean ---------- do you mean by assure
yourself that you wanted to assure
yourselves that Jensen and Widmark were
not destroying part of this PCB that they
were trying to sample by use of the
nitric acid and sulfuric acid?
Correct. And is it the case that nitric acid and
sulfuric acid will more readily degrade
PCBs with fewer chlorines on them?
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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400
A. Q.
A. Q. A.
"Degrade" may not be the right word.
Would more readily destroy PCBs with
fewer chlorines on them?
By "destroy" I
mean make them undetectable by the equipment ?
Not necessarily.
Is there a pattern to what :---------under the
same conditions, are some PCBs more
likely to be degraded than others by
nitric acid and sulfuric acid?
Yes.
Which PCBs are those in general?
It depends upon the reaction that occurs.
If the polychlorinated biphenyl is
nitrated ---------- in other words, a nitrate
group is introduced into the structure or if it's sulfated, in other words an SL3
group was introduced into the structure
Q. A.
I don't mean to interrupt, but are those
the things that can occur if the PCB is
exposed to nitric acid or sulfuric acid?
That's occur,
one of or two
the reactions that can
' V'
of the reactions that can
occur if they are exposed to mixtures of
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401
the two especially.
Those things become
polar and so high boiling that you would no longer see them via gas
chromatography, and in addition to that, it makes them more water-soluble, so they
wouldn't be extracted by the solvents
that are used to extract them ---------- the
polychlorinated biphenyls.
Alternately,
you can have oxidation of the ring
_
where it opens it up and you're no longer dealing with a biphenyl, but
you might be dealing with a phenyl
aliphatic compound or something of that
sort.
And again, that would not give you
a reading as a PCB.
Alternately, another
reaction could occur in which the
chlorine on a molecule was replaced with
a nitronium or sulfuric ion.
In that
case, that would be more ----------- there would
be a higher probability of that occurring
where there were more chlorines on a
molecule than less.
As I recall, the
dominant reaction of chemistry here is
nitration and/or sulfonation of open
carbons, and that kind of routine.
So
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402
A.
Q.
A. Q.
this would appear, at least at some
conditions, to affect the lower
chlorinated materials first.
Meaning that the lower chlorinated PCBs
----------the
PCBs with fewe r chlorines are
more subject to the re action that will
render the molecule more difficult to
detect? They could be, depending upon the
conditions used.
As I mentioned earlier,
there's things called time ---------- exposure
time ---------- temperature, and concentration
or re agent s . I understand.
But those conditions
being equal,.the PCB molecules with fewer
chlorines are more subject to these
reactions with the nitric acid and
sulfuric acid?
I don't know that.
And that's not
necessarily true. Well, what was that ---------- you mentioned a
concern expressed here was that ---------- it
was a concern expressed here that Jensen
and Widmark were not detecting all of the
PCBs that were actually present in the
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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403
A. Q
A. Q.
A. Q A.
Q.
A. Q.
s amp 1e ?
Correct. So that there actually might b e
in the sample than Jen sen and W
finding?
Correct.
And were the PCBs that were not
detected falling into any parti
type?
Were they more likely t o
Aroclor 1242?
I don't recall.
Were they more likely to be P CB
fewer chlorines on them?
I really don't recall those de t
the chemistries, and I would have to
review the data or do some experiments to
prove that, or we'd have to talk to an
organic chemist.
There's a reference on Exhibit 359 to
Aroclor 1242 that's on the second page.
This is it.
It just so happens that the TRANS number
is 359 here.
Sorry.
No problem.
In Exhibit 359 there's a
reference to Aroclor 1242.
The full
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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404
A. Q.
sentence reads, as I read before, "Scott
Tucker reported that Aroclor 1242 could be destroyed by HNO3/H2SO4 treatment."
Does that refresh your recollection as to
whether there was consideration that
maybe Jensen and Widmark weren't
detecting all of the lower chlorinated
PCBs in their samples?
No.
It wasn't done for that purpose.
Jf
they used it as a means of confirming
things, and we were trying to repeat and
validate what they were doing, then we
would do that.
And we would use that
treatment on Aroclor 1242.
And then we
would report our observations.
And it's
apparent from this that the observation
was that some of the Aroclor had
disappeared and could no longer be seen
by electron capture.
Now, what that
means from there
in terms of what Jensen
and Widmark did or whether they played
golf on Saturday or something of that
sort, I haven't
the faintest damn idea.
So it can't be extrapolated that way.
By some of the Aroclor disappearing, you
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405
mean they weren't measuring all of the
Aroclor that was, in fact, present in the
sample?
A. No.
I mean that the pattern that we saw
after treatment under the conditions that
we used, which aren't delineated here,
was changed. And you could no longer see
exactly the same thing you saw when you
compared an untreated sample with a
...
treated sample via electron capture gas
chromatography.
Q.
You mean treated by the nitric acid or
A.
Correct.
Q.
---------- sulfuric acid?
A.
Correct.
Q.
Do you recall what the difference was in
A.
the---------Not specifically.
No, I don't.
I will
tell you very frankly as a chemist,
though, that when someone runs a reaction
at zero degrees centigrade, as indicated
in the Jensen they are very
and Widmark article, that
' V ; concerned about keeping
that reaction to a minimum, because
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406
that's what lowering the temperature
does.
If they were to run it at a higher
temperature, then they themselves are
probably anticipating that it would have
an effect that they didn't want; okay?
Q When you mention ----------
A As a chemist I would draw that conclusion
from this information.
Q By this information ---------- and you
.
referenced the zero degrees ---------- you were
referring to Exhibit 319, I believe,
which on its face appears to be ----------
A Yes.
Q ---------- the description of Jensen and Widmark's work?
A Yes.
Q In other words, by running the reaction
at zero degrees shows a more careful
laboratory technique?
MR. ZIMMER :
Careful than what ?
Q Than running a t , say, at room
temp erature?
A
No .
It inhibits the reaction,
Q Does running the reaction at zero degrees
make it more 1 ik ely to detect the
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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407
A. Q.
presence of PCBs ---------- I mean ---------- I'll take
that back.
Does running the reaction at
zero degrees make it more precise?
No .
(OFF RECORD)
Did you ever analyze any of the chemical
properties of MCS 1016?
(OFF RECORD)
A. Q.
A.
No.
Do you know if those properties were
similar to those of Aroclor 1242?
All polychlorinatedbiphenyls
have
similar chemical properties, so my answer
to that question ------------- state that question
Q.
again, please. Do you know if the properties of
MCS
1016 were similar to those ofAroclor 1 2 4 2?
A. Q.
Yes. Did they have ---------- were they both liquids
at room temperature?
A. Q.
Yes. Did they have similar dielectric properties?
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408
A.
Ye s .
Q.
Did
they 'have similar vapor points?
A.
Ye s .
Q.
By"similar,"
I mean within five degrees
centigrade?
A.
I don't know that specifically.
I'd have
to look it up.
Q.
Did
they have similar viscosity?
A.
Ye s .
.
Q.
Did
they have similar fire resistant
properties?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Were they similar in terms
of stability
A. Q.
A. Q.
Yes. ---------- chemical stability?
Were they both
approximately equally resistant to
breakdown in the environment?
I take
that back.
The image I'm thinking of is
---------- you mentioned before that the drum of
Aroclor 1242 will last for 150 years in
the drum.
Is the same true of MCS 1016?
Both of those materials are chemically
stabile. I'm going to show you a document marked
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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409
as Exhibit ----------
MR.
KASHANI:
what'snext?
(Thereupon the Court Reporter
marked the pertinent document as
PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 360-A)
Q. Exhibit 360.
By the way, did you ever
meet Bill Papageorge?
A. Q.
Yes. William Papageorge?
Do you remember
having any discussions with him on the
biodegradabi1ity of Aroclors?
A.
Not specifically.
Q.
Do you remember generally any such
discussions?
A . Yes.
Q. Do you remember when those occurred? A. No, sir.
Q.
Would you have a continuous discussion
with him, frequent discussions, or ---------------
A.
Whenever he requesteddiscussions we
would have them.
And they would have
occurred during my employment with
Monsanto.
Q. Were they on the order of once a month,
once a week?
The reason I asked that, if
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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410
A. Q
you talked to him every day, I'm
obviously not going to ask you what you
said in every conversation.
But if you
talked t o him once a year , then w e might
be able t o pinpoint that time.
It was more frequently than once a year
and not a s frequently as daily, and
there's n o question about that.
It was
intermediate frequency in terms of how _
often Bill and I got together.
Did you
want me to read this first before I do
anything or not?
The only thing I'm going to refer to in
this Exhibit going back to Exhibit 360,
is on page for ---------- that's numbered page
TRAN 036314, under the heading "MCS 1016.
Going to the last sentence it reads,
"Since all the electrical properties of
MCS are indistinguishable from those of
Aroclor 1242 and there are only minor
differences in other properties, comma,
this fluid should be a direct substitute
for Aroclor 1242 in the capacitor industry with no capacitor design
j^ change
or processing changes needed."
Let me
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411
refer to just the first part of that
sentence which is, "Since all the
electrical properties of MCS are
indistinguishable from those of Aroclor
1242 and there are only minor differences
in other properties ----------".
If we assume
that MCS here is referring to MCS 1016,
is that a correct statement, to your
knowledge?
...
A.
If we assume that MCS is referring to MCS
1016, yes.
Q.
Thank you.
What does the term
"chlorinated polyphenyl" mean? Polyphenyl
----------p - o - 1 - y - p - h - e - n - y - 1 .
A.
What it would mean to me is ---------- is it's
obviously not correct IUPAC terminology
and things of that sort.
I mean, it's a
heavy duty subverted chemical term, I
would say, you know.
Slang.
It's
chemical slang ----------
Q.
Chemical slang, okay.
A.
---------- would be the best way I could
describe that.
And ----------
Q.
You mean it's not a proper reference for
anything?
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412
A. Q. A.
Q. A.
Q. A.
It's not a precise way to communicate any
information from a chemical viewpoint.
Okay.
It's slang. And so you've got to be
probably part of the hood wherever that
came from to understand what it meant.
What i t would mean to me , i f you asked me , and you are asking me , i s i t would mean t o me benzene or p h e n t y 1 -- - phenyj.
groups that were connected that had chlorines on ---------- associated with them.
Poly----------
Polyphenyl ---------- p-h ----------
Polyphenyl.
"Polyphenyl" would mean more
than one ----------p-h-e-n-y-1
---------- group, okay.
And for them to be in an assemblage or a
molecule, they would have to be bonded
---------- chemically bonded together, so it
could be a biphenyl, it could be a
terphenyl, could be a quatripheny1, could
be a pentaphenyl, a hexaphenyl, hepta and
so on, and ---------- chlorinated it says?
Chlorinated.
"Chlorinated" means that they've had
chlorine reacted with them so that they
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413
have chlorine bonded to it
Q.
So, it could mean a lot of different
substances?
A.
You bet.
Q.
There's really no way to tell?
A.
Ad infinitum.
Q. So, without more information,there's no
way to tell what it's referring
to?
A . Correct. Specifically.
MR . ZIMMER:
Perhaps the Exhibit
that you have in mind.
MR . KASHANI:
I don't have any
Exhibit.
A.
Well, it's likechlorinated hydrocarbons.
There are entities which will be
considered chlorinated hydrocarbons that
haven't even been thought of or ever
produced. Q. So, is"chlorinated hydrocarbon" the
same
sort of terminology in that it could mean
a lot of different things, and it's
impossible to tell what it means?
A.
Without further specification, yes.
Q.
So does the same go for chlorinated
aromatic hydrocarbon?
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A. Q
A.
Chlorinated aromatic ---------- yes.
So "chlorinated aromatic hydrocarbon" is
another term which can mean a lot of
different things, and there's no way to
tell what it means without more
information?
Well, no, you can -----------
MR. ZIMMER:
It calls for
speculation as to the "no way to
tell" part.
MR. KASHANI:
Well, can you tell
without more information what
substance I'm referring to when I
use the term "chlorinated aromatic
hydrocarbon"?
MR. ZIMMER:
In which context, just
me ntioning it out loud?
MR. KASHANI:
I'm saying it right
now, ye s.
MR. ZIMMER:
Okay, as opposed to in
a letter, for example, or on a
labe1?
MR. KASHANI
You're creating a
context here definition .
I'm just asking for a
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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415
A.
Q. A.
MR. ZIMMER:
I am just asking if
there is a context. As long as you
tell me, it's just when you say the
term out loud, that's what I want to
know.
Okay.
"Chlorinated aromatic
hydrocarbons" means something to me.
What do they mean?
It's like "aliphatic hydrocarbons" wouId
have a meaning to me, or "aromatic
hydrocarbons" would have a meaning to me.
And what it means is is a class of
compounds, chlorinated aromatic
hydrocarbons.
"Chlorinated" would mean
that there would be chlorine, and that
the chlorine had been reacted with it
because it was chlorinated, okay.
So I
would know that there was chlorine
associated with what I'm talking about
here, and that it's a reacted ---------- it's a
bonded chlorine, not chlorine gas that's
sitting inside this bottle or something
like that
that.
"Aromatic" refers to the
it's an unsaturated carbon ring
fact ' V'
structure.
And it could be as few as
JUDY COMP & ASSOCIATES
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416
Q. A.
Q. A. Q. A. Q.
three carbons because that's all that's
required to make a ring is three carbons.
That's the minimum.
And it could be as
many as ---------- well, I've seen publications
where there were literally hundreds of
carbons on that form a ring structure -----------
decihedral whatevers, okay.
So the
aromatic portion of it, that's what that
would refer to me.
What's the other
.
part? Hydrocarbon.
"Hydrocarbon" would meanhydrogen
and
carbonl okay.
So that would tell me that
we're dealing with a class of compounds
that have those properties that I just
talked about.
They also have other
things associated with them, but I need
to know in what context you are using
that terminology to discern that.
Could chlorinated aromatic hydrocarbon
refer to DDT?
Ye s .
Could it refer to DDE?
Yes.
You mentioned that it could
refer to
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417
compounds with three carbons in a ring?
A.
Correct.
Q.
How many carbons are in a ring in PCBs?
A.
Twelve.
Well, there's -----------
Q.
There's -----------
A.
---------- six in two rings, but there's twelve
in the biphenyl structure.
But there's
two rings, so there's six in each ring.
Q.
What about the term "chlorobiphenyl"
A.
P-h-e-n-y-1?
Q.
Yes, y-1 .
A.
Okay.
"Chlorobiphenyl" means chlorinated
biphenyls to me, or, you know ----------
Q.
So that refers to -----------
A.
Chlo ----------- chlorobiphenyl?
Q.
Chlorobiphenyl.
One word.
.
A.
No " S " ?
Q.
No "S" and one word.
A.
Well, "chlorobiphenyl" would mean to me
just monoch1orob i pheny1 .
Q.
Meaning a PCB with one chlorine atom?
A.
Correct. If you said "chlorobiphenyls",
multiple, then you might have some ----------
then that could be and has been at some
point in time used by certain people ----------
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some people to talk about the whole ball
Q.
of wax.
Is "chlorobiphenyl" a common term used to
refer to PCBs?
A.
I don't use it commonly, and I've talked
a lot about PCBs over the years, so I wouldn't say it's common.
Q A.
You mentioned earlier IUPAC? Uh- huh (affirmative).
Q A.
I s that I-U-P-A-C?
It could be.
I always forget .
It's the
International
Congressof such and
such
and all that kind of stuff.
It's an
organization that's in charge of
nomenclature for chemistry and makes
recommendations in terms of what's the
appropriate nomenclature.
Q. Does IUPAC make recommendations as to
what is the appropriate name to use to
refer to compounds?
A. Q.
Yes. And when you say that "chlorinated
polyphenyl" is
not anIUPAC term do you
mean that is not a term that IUPAC has
recommended to use?
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A It's not the o fficial terminology that's
r e c omme n d e d.
It's just like if your name
is David and I call you "Davey," "Davey
is not officia 1, "David" is, but you can
still be calle d "Davey."
Do you see what
I'm saying?
Q But----------okay.
"Polychlorinated" ----------
A Whatever that last term you said ----------
Q Poly----------
A -- i s 1 i k e a nickname
Q But it '1 s not a precise
A That ' s c o r r e c t
MR. KASHANI:
Let's take a break.
(OFF RECORD)
(While off record the Court
Reporter marked the pertinent
document as PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT
NUMBER 3 61-A)
Q
Let me show you another Exhibit.
It's
Exhibit 261.
A
(Witness peruses document).
Okay.
Q Dr. Tucker, do you recognize the format
of Exhibit 361?
A No, sir.
Q Is that a carbon copy of the format used
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A. Q. A.
Q. A. Q
Q. Q. A. Q. A. Q.
in Exhibit 360?
MR. ZIMMER:
Calls for speculation.
It's certainly not a carbon co p y----------
Well, it's not ----------
---------- of the format used in 360 or the page
there.
I don't know. I don't recognize
this format because it's obviously
incomplete or if it's not incomplete,
then the people who do use it are
.
well-schooled in what it means.
I see.
This is a form we received from
Monsanto.
Okay.
I'm not trying to hide anything from you
MR. ZIMMER:
No , I----------it
just
looks like the whole ---------- we 11----------
This is a document we received from them.
MR. ZIMMER:
Fine. Answer.
Do you recognize the document?
Not specifically, no.
Do you remember in general the topics
that are discussed in the memo?
Yes. And I should clarify,
we're
' i' referring to
Exhibit 361, not 360.
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A. Q.
Okay. Looking at the first paragraph, it says,
"I would like to set a target date of
Monday, February 8, to have a written
document which could help answer G.E.'s
questions on MCS 1016, it's degradation
rate; and why MCS 1016 is a better fluid
in the environment than Aroclor 1242 and
Aroclor 1254."
Do you recall that
.
A.
request? Not specifically.
Q.
Do you recall generally preparing a
document for the use of General Electric
or any other customer on MCS 1016?
A.
Not specifically for General Electric or
for the use of any other customer.
I've
prepared documents like that, though.
Q.
Documents explaining ---------- and I'm going to
- quote from the memo, "why MCS 1016 is a
better fluid in the environment than
Aroclor 1242"?
A.
Ye s .
Q.
Do you recall providing such a document
to General Electric?
A.
No.
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Q. Do
you recall
if any such documents that
you prepared on MCS 1016 were provided to
General Electric?
A.
No .
Q. Do
you recall
if they were provided to
any other customers?
A.
No .
Q.
Do
you recall
if General Electric ever
purchased any MCS 1016?
...
A.
No .
Q.
Do
you recall
if Monsanto offered to sell
MCS 1016 to General Electric or any other
customer?
A.
No .
Q.
Do
you recall
if Monsanto ever started
producing MCS 1016 in commercial
quantities?
A.
Nope.
Q.
Let me refer you back to Exhibit 366.
It's a document we discussed earlier that
refers to, among other things, MCS 1016.
Is this one of the documents that appears
to be ---------- is this the same category of
documents that is being discussed in
Exhibit 361?
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A. Q.
A. Q. A.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q
MR. ZIMMER:
Calls for speculation.
I don't understand the question. You said you had a general recollection
of preparing documents concerning MCS 1016 and specifically, as I quoted, why
MCS 1016 is a better fluid in the
environment than Aroclor 1242.
Is
Exhibit 330 ^-- is that 336?
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Yes.
.
Is Exhibit 336 one of that category of
documents?
Yes.
I understand the question.
Excellent. MR. ZIMMER:
That was a different
one than the first one.
It doesn't make any difference. I
actually unders food that, and I ' m not
being facetious .
It was comfor table.
So, the answer to my question i s "yes"?
Yes.
Do you remember if you prepared Exhibit
336 in response to Exhibit 361?
No .
Do you remember if Exhibit 336 o r any information in it was ever provided to
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any of Monsanto's customers?
A.
No .
Q.
Okay.
Dr. Tucker, how long were you
employed by Monsanto?
A.
I believe my tenure at Monsanto was
either 1967
or 1968 through 1978, so, ten
or eleven years.
Q. And you earlier mentioned that at some
point, about three years after you
..
started work you became a group leader?
Was that the term you used?
A.
Ye s .
Q.
And how long were you a group leader?
A.
I don't recall exactly without reviewing
my records.
I have records that I can
review.
Not with me, but I have records.
I don't recall.
Q.
Do you recall your next position after
being a group leader?
A.
I think it was Senior Research Specialist
or something like that.
Q.
Do you recall approximately when you
achieved that position?
A.
No , sir
Q And did
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one?
A Not that I recall at this point, no.
Q And when did you leave Monsanto?
A I think I left Monsanto in ---------- it must
have been 1978 or 1977.
Q Since you have left Monsanto, have you
ever done any consulting work?
We
discussed yesterday in the context of
lawsuits, but have you done any
consulting work involving PCBs or-
contamination with PCBs since you left
Monsanto?
A No .
Q Have you discussed this deposition or
this case with anyone other than your
counsel prior to this deposition?
A No .
Q Are you being compensated in any way for
your time spent either preparing or
giving this deposition?
A No .
Q Okay.
MR. KASHANI:
Thank you very much.
Thank you for your time. Doctor.
(OFF RECORD)
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MR. KASHANI:
The parties have
stipulated that the Court Reporter
will prepare a copy of the
transcript, the original transcript,
and will send the original to Dr.
Tucker or his counsel, depending on
what they specify.
After you mail
the transcript, Dr. Tucker will have
thirty days to review it and make
any corrections and get those
corrections back to
the Court
Reporter. And also Dr. Tucker will
have thirty days to
sign the
deposition transcript.
But if Dr.
Tucker does not make any corrections
or does not sign the transcript,
then the uncorrected and/or unsigned
transcript can be used for all
purposes the same as a signed and/or
transcript.
So
r Counsel?
MR. ZIMMER:
Well said.
MR. KASHANI:
Thank you.
(DEPOSITION CONCLUDED)
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SIGNATURE PAGE (SIGNATURE NOT WAIVED) DEPOSITION OF E. SCOTT TUCKER, Ph.D
E. Scott Tucker, Ph.D
Sworn to and subscribed to before me this ____
day of_____________________________________,
1 9 92.
Notary Public for South Carolina My Commission Expires: (SEAL)
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STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA) ' ) CERTIFICATE
COUNTY OF GREENVILLE
)
I, BETH BYCE, a Notary Public, duly
commissioned and qualified in and for the
State of South Carolina, do hereby certify, that the deposition of E. Scott Tucker, Ph.D,
called by the Plaintiff, was taken before me
at 2:00 p.m. on June 23rd, 1992, and at
9:10
a.m. on June 24th, 1992; that said Witness was duly sworn; that his deposition testimony was transcribed under my direction, and that this
deposition is a true record of said testimony; I further certify that I am not of kin or counsel to the parties in this case, am not in
the regular employ of counsel for any of said
parties, nor am I interested in the results of
this case.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and affixed my official seal this ------------------
day of ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------,
1992.
Notary Public for South Carolina
My commission Expires:
10-28-01
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