Document ppypkVXdyVd0aDGaNpDVKvZ9B

FILE NAME: CertainTeed (CERT) DATE: 1982 Feb DOC#: CERT052 DOCUM ENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Leon Horow itz P12e1nnSsoyulvtahnBiarOoaffdicSe!treet Twenty First Floor Philadelphia, PA 19107 (215) 735-6677 Fax: (215) 732-3630 www.sheinlaw.com Shein Law Center, Ltd. A ttorneys At Law September 16, 2003 306 WestNSeowmJeerrsdeayleORffoicaed: Voorhees, NJ 08043 (856) 427-9527 Fax: (856) 427-9585 Dr. Barry Castleman P.O. Box 188 Garrett Park, MD 20896 Dear Dr. Castleman: Enclosed please find copies of depositions of Leon Horowitz. Thank you for your courtesies. Very truly yours, SHEIN LAW CENTER, LTE. BY: Bethann P. Schafizin BPS:mar Enclosures P.S. This was inadvertently left out of a package of depositions you will be receiving from Bethann P. Schaffzin. Thank you. Castleman.CERT000597 1 1 2 DONALD WEISBERG, ESQUIRE : COURT OF C O M M O N PLEAS and NEVER A. BUSHMAN, - OF P H I L A D E L P H I A COUNTY 3 E S Q U I R E , C o - E x e c u t o r s of the Estate of M E L V I N P . 4 TIMBERS 5 VS . : MAY TERM, 1978 6 B E L L A S B E S T O S M I N E S , L T D . : NO . 46 2 9 7 ELSIE H A Y D E N , A d m i n i s t r a - : COURT OF C O M M O N PLEAS t ri x of the E s t a t e of J E S S E 8 HAYDEN, Deceased 9 VS . : NOVEMBER TERM, 1978 111 0 B E L L A S B E S T O S M I N E S , LTD., ET AL : NO. 3624 PETER SERRATORE and : COURT OF C O M M O N PLEAS OF 12 M A R J O R I E S E R R A T O R E , his wife PHILADELPHIA COUNTY 13 VS . : JULY TERM, 1979 14 BELL ASBESTOS MINES, LTD., : 1 5 ET AL : NO. 3348 16 R O S E M A R Y E.. C O U L S T O N , A d m i n i s t r a t r i x of the : COURT OF C O M M O N PLEAS OF MONTGOMERY COUNTY 17 E s t a t e of C H A R L E S W. C O U L S T O N , and R O S E M A R Y E. 18 C O U L S T O N , on her own . behalf 19 VS . 2 0 BELL ASBESTOS MINES, LTD., 21 ET AL : NO . 8 0 - 5 2 5 0 22 23 24 (CONTINUED) 25 Castleman.CERT000598 Knipes-Cohen Associates 1 JOHNNIE WILLIAMS and RUTH F. W I L L I A M S , his wife 2 VS . 3 BELL ASBESTOS MINES, LTD., 4 ET A L 2 COURT OF C O M M O N PLEAS OF P H I L A D E L P H I A COUNTY AUGUST TERM, 1980 NO. 3710 5 ROSE MARY MACO, Executrix of the Estate of PAUL MACO, 6 SR., and ROSE MARY MACO, on her own behalf 7 VS . 8 BELL ASBESTOS MINES, LTD., 9 ET AL COURT OF COMM O N PLEAS OF M O N T G O M E R Y COUNTY NO. 80-18537 10 EDWARD BARNES and NANNIE 11 B A R N E S , his wife VS . 1 2 BELL ASBESTOS MINES, LTD., 13 ET AL COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF P H I L A D E L P H I A COUNTY DECEMBER TERM, 1980 NO . 44 2 9 14 W A R D E L L M. B A I L E Y and ROSE ELLA BAILEY, his wife 1 5 VS . 1 6 BELL ASBESTOS MINES, LTD., 17 ET AL 18 W I L L I A M R. D I X O N and M A T T I E N. D I X O N , his wife 19 VS . 2120 BELL ASBESTOS MINES, LTD., ET AL COURT OF C O M M O N PLEAS PHILADELPHIA COUNTY MAY TERM, 1981 NO . 1 675 , COURT OF C O M M O N PLEAS OF P H I L A D E L P H I A COUNTY OCTOBER TERM, 1981 NO . 2 8 7 4 22 23 24 (CONTINUED) 25 Knip es-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000599 1 3 2 PAULINE GASKINS, A d m i n i s t r a t r i x of the 3 Estate of ALFRED GASKINS, ET AL 4 VS 5 BELL ASBESTOS MINES, LTD., 6 ET AL COURT OF C O M M O N PLEAS OF M O N T G O M E R Y COUNTY NO. 80-12774 7 8 V i d e o t a p e d e p o s i t i o n of LEON H O R O W I T Z , 9 t a k e n p u r s u a n t to n o t i c e at the o f f i c e s of K N I P E S - 10 COHEN ASSOCIATES, 400 Market Street, 10th Floor, 11 P h i l a d e l p h i a , P e n n s y l v a n i a , on M o n d a y , F e b r u a r y 1, 1 2 1982, at 10 : 0 0 a.m., E. S . T . , be f o r e Cl a u d e Forte and 13 E a r l e S t r a i n , V i d e o t a p e O p e r a t o r s , and S u z a n n e 14 McLaughlin White, Registered Professional Reporter, 1 5 Notary P u b l i c in and for the County of P h i l a d e l p h i a , 16 there being present: 17 18 A P P E A R A N C E S : 1 9 20 21 22 23 24 BLANK, ROME, COMISKY & McCAULEY, ESQUIRES BY: MITCHELL COHEN, ESQUIRE Representing Plaintiffs GREITZER & LOCKS, ESQUIRES B Y : GE NE L O C K S , E S Q U I R E Representing Plaintiffs (CONTINUED) 25 Knipes-Cohen Associates castieman.ctKiuuuUU 1 4 2 CONTINUED APPEARANCES: 3 SHEIN & BROOKMAN, ESQUIRES BY: JOSEPH SHEIN, ESQUIRE 4 AND: ROBERT PAUL, ESQUIRE Representing Plaintiffs 5 POST & SCHELL, ESQUIRES 6 BY: F. J A M E S G A L L O , E S Q U I R E AND: R O B E R T M. B R I T T O N , E S Q U I R E 7 Representing Bell Asbestos Mines, Ltd. 8 SWARTZ, CAMPBELL S DETWEILER, ESQUIRES BY: DANIEL BRUCH, JR., ESQUIRE 9 Representing Certainteed Corporation 1 0 MALCOLM S RILEY, ESQUIRES 11 BY: P E T E R C O L E M A N , E S Q U I R E Representing Celotex 12 M A R S H A L L , D E N N E H E Y , W A R N E R , C O L E M A N 8 GOGGIN, ESQUIRES 13 BY: M I C H A E L C R E E D 0 N , .ESQU I RE Representing Johns-Manville Corporation 14 MESIROV, GELMAN, JAFFE, CRAMER a 1 5 JAMIESON, ESQUIRES BY: RANDI WERNER, ESQUIRE 1 6 Representing GAF 17 OMINSKY, JOSEPH a WELSH, ESQUIRES BY: CLIVE MENDELOW, ESQUIRE 18 Representing Asbestos Corporation Limited 1 9 PEPPER, HAMILTON, a SCHEETZ, ESQUIRES 20 BY: DIANA M. JONIEC, ESQUIRE R e p r e s e n t i ng Amatex 21 BENNETT, BRICKLIN a SALTZBURG, 22 ESQUIRES BY: BYRON MILNER, ESQUIRE 23 Representing Nicolet 24 (CONTINUED) 25 "Knipes-Cohen A ssocia:te:s Castieman.CERT00060l 1 5 2 CONTINUE D APPEARANCES : 3 LaBRUM S DOAK, ESQUIRES BY: FRANCIS WENZEL, ESQUIRE 4 Representing Keene Corporation 5 HARVEY, PENNINGTON, HERTNG AND RENNEISEN, ESQUIRES 6 BY: JOEL GUSKY, ESQUIRE Representing Carey- Canadian Mines/ 7 Ltd. 8 DE CHERT, PRICE 8 RHOADS, E S Q U I R E S BY: JOHN MASON, ESQUIRE 9 Representing T urner- NewaLl 10 PORZIO, BROMBERG AND NEWMAN, P.C. BY: MYR O N J. BROMBERG, ESQUIRE 11 R e p r e s e n t i n g Lake A s b e s t o s of Quebec 12 McWilliams & sweeney, esquires 1 3 BY: WALTER JENKINS, ESQUIRE R e p r e s e n t i n g Special A s b e s t o s Co. 14 WOLF, BLOCK, SCHORR,SOLIS & COHEN, 1 5 ESQUIRES BY: M. RICHARD KOMINS, ESQUIRE 16 R e p r e s e n t i n g North A m e r i c a n A s b e s t o s Co 17 SHEA & GAR NER, ESQUIRES BY: s'. E L I Z A B E T H G I B S O N , E S Q U I R E 18 Representing Brinco Mining Ltd. 1 9 20 21 22 23 24 25 Knipe~s-Cohen Asso' ciates Castleman.CERT000602 1 2 3 W IT N E S S I-N-D-E-X Direct Cross Redirec 6 Re c ross 4 LEON HOROWITZ 5 By : F. J a m e s G a l l o 6 By : Elizabeth Gibson 7 By : Myr o n B r omberg 8 By : Daniel Bruch 9 By : Joel Gusky 10 By : John Mason 11 By : M i t c h e l l C o h e n 12 By : J o s e p h Shein 26 -- -- 121 -- -- 132,169 -- -- 135,196 -- -- 140,183 -- -- 146,193 -- -- 198 -- -- 226 13 14 1 5 16 17 18 1 9 20 21 22 23 24 25 Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000603 1 Opp THE RECORD DISCUSSIONS & BREAKS 2 Discussions - 10:20 am - 1 0 :2 5 a m 3 Discussions - 10 :26 am ~ 1 0 :2 7 a m 4 Break - 11 :3 0 am - 1 1 :40 a m 5 Lunch break - 12:45 am - 1 :40 p m 6 Di s c u s s i o n s - 5 :05 pm - 5 :1 0 p m PAGE NUMBER 21 21 70 128 21 8 7 8 9 1 0 11 12 13 14 1 5 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000604 1 8 2 MR. COHEN: Before we go on, just on 3 the stenographic record, Let's just get whatever 4 h o u s e k e e p i n g that has been d one as far as 5 o b j e c t i o n s are. My p r o p o s a l would be to the 6 extent any questions are asked, that there would 7 be an u n d e r s t a n d i n g that any t e s t i m o n y gi v e n by 8 Mr. H o r o w i t z , w h e t h e r it's in r e s p o n s e to a 9 particular counsel's question, that that testimony 1 0 wo u l d be used by s t i p u l a t i o n e q u a l l y in every 11 case which has been noticed for the deposition, 1 2 so that we can avoid the n e c e s s i t y of repetitive 13 q u e s t i o n s or cross e x a m i n a t i o n by counsel. 14 MR. GALLO: I think we have to have 1 5 that understanding. 16 MR. SHEIN: I don't necessarily agree 17 to that, Joseph Shein, r e p resenting Various 18 P l a i n t i f f s . I do have several q u e s t i o n s . One, 1 9 I would Like to know who has been n o t i f i e d , who 20 is not p r e s e n t now, that you know of? 21 MR. GALLO: All counsel. 22 MR . S H E I N : Or is e v e r y one here? 23 MR. GALLO: This videotape deposition 24 was n o t i c e d in some twelve or so a s b e s t o s cases 25 of w o r k e r s at the K e a s b e y - M a t t i son, later Knipes-Coh~en A ssociates Castleman.CERT000605 1 9 2 C e r t a i n t e e d P l a n t s / in A m b l e r / PA. The N o ti c e 3 of D e p o s i t i o n went to all c o u n s e l of r e c o r d in 4 each of these cases, and looking around the room/ 5 I n o t i c e that it s e e m s like C o u n s e l for C a s s i a r 6 is not here. Some o t h e r s may not be here. 7 Not i c e did go to counsel of record. 8 - MR. SHEIN: Notice did go to 9 Cassiar/ Counsel for Cassiar? 1 0 MR. GALLO: That's right. 11 MR. SHEIN: Do you s t i p u l a t e to the 12 fact that this is b e i n g n o t i c e d in some cases 13 that are not ours? I do not know the extent 14 of the n o t i c e s / and t h e r e f o r e / we know who is 1 5 here/ but I would like to know who has been 16 n o t i c e d / who is not h e r e . If y o u w o u l d just 17 rec i t e the names, if you could, on the 18 record? 19 MR. GALLO: I'm not about to do that. 20 I can tell you that all Counsel of Record who 21 have e n t e r e d a p p e a r a n c e s for D e f e n d a n t s in all the 2 2 c a s e s that y o u h a v e , Mr. S h e i n , were n o t i f i e d of 23 this deposition. 24 MR. BR00KMAN: Any Nicolet Plant 25 worker cases? __ Knip es-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000606 10 1 2 MR. GALLO: There may be some of these 3 w o r k e r s who w o r k e d in the Nicolet Plant after 4 it was t a k e n o v e r by N i c o l e t , yes. 5 MR. SHEIN: Again, it's my u n d e r s t a n d i ng 6 that N o t ices were sent out in other than our 7 cases? 8 MR. GALLO: That's correct. 9 MR. SHEIN: With other Plaintiffs. 10 I don't know the extent of those Notices. 11 T h a t ' s -- I know who has b e e n n o t i f i e d in our 12 c a s e s , what I'm t r y i n g to f i n d out is what 13 o t h e r D e f e n d a n t s in either Perlberger c a s e s or 14 Greitzer 8 Locks cases have been notified for 1 5 these depositions. 16 MR. GALLO: All right, I don't have 17 the captions or the rather extensive mailing 18 list that we used at this time. 1 9 MR . SHEIN: Will you supply that to us? 20 MR . G A L L O : I will be happy to, Mr. 21 She in . 22 MR . SHEIN: I w o u l d like that made an 23 E x h i b i t to the dep o s it i on . 24 MR . GALLO : Sure, no problem. 25 MR . SHEIN: One other housekeeping Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000607 1 2 method or ma t t e r , I should say, you have 3 n o t i c e d this as a d e p o s i t i o n for use a t trial, 4 a n d it b e i n g such , I'm g o i n g t 0 ask that you 5 make an o f f e r of p r o o f , I w o u l d like t 0 know 6 w h e t h e r or not t h i s man is b e i n g c a l l e d a s , a n 7 expe r t or a fact w i t n e s s , w h e t h e r or not you 8 c o n s i d e r him, due to the fact t h a t he was an 9 e m p l o y e e of a sister c o r p o r a t i o n of Bell, as a 1 0 Bell e m p l o y e e , and that will be important for 11 the p u r p o s e s of c r o s s e x a m i n a t i o n , as he w o u l d 12 then be a party. T hat's how we con s i d e r him. 1 3 MR. GALLO: Well, your consideration 1 4 is i n c o r r e c t , in my view, Mr. Shein. Mr. 15 H o r o w i t z will t e s t i f y in a c c o r d a n c e with the 1 6 d e p o s i t i o n he gave on June 30th, 1980 in W a s h i n g 17 ton, D.C., a copy of which you have been f u r n i s h e d 18 with, basically outlining his background, his 19 educational history, his experience with the New 20 York State Industrial Hygiene Board, and his 21 coming with Keasbey-Hatti son, later Certainteed 22 C o r p o r a t i o n , his work with them as I n d u s t r i a l 23 Hygienist. He would a u t h e n t i c a t e certain / 24 d o c u m e n t s , all of w h i c h were used in the pr i o r 25 d e p o s i t i o n , and will d i s c u s s the m e t h o d of ; " Knipes-Co" hen " A ssociates Castleman.CERT000608 1 1 2 2 i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n e and cust c o n t r o l at 3 C e r t a i n t e e d . He is being c a l l e d as a fact 4 w i t n e s s , not an e x p e r t , and he is b e i n g 5 a s k e d to d i s c u s s his a c t i v i t i e s as an e m p l o y e e 6 of K e a s b e y - M a t t i son and as an e m p l o y e e of 7 Certainteed Products Corporation. 8 MR. SHEIN: Well, for the record, 9 we c o n s i d e r , due to the i n t e r - r e l a t i o n s h i p 1 0 between Turner and Newall, Keasbey and 11 Mattison, Bell and Cassiar, that for purposes 1 2 of t r i a l , t e s t i m o n y , he is a p a r t y . If w e ' r e 13 p r e v e n t e d from cross e x a m i n i n g as a party, we 1 4 o b j e c t to the deposition. 1 5 MR. G A L L O : Y o u r o b j e c t i o n is n o t e d . 16 He is not a party. He is a w i t n e s s , as an 17 e m p l o y e e of the company which e m p l o y e d these 18 P l a i n t i f f s , and we will pr o c e e d with the 19 deposition under that status, and observe 20 the r u l e s covered by -- If y o u have a legal 21 a r g u m e n t to make on what you've just said, 22 it w i l l be r a i s e d at the a p p r o p r i a t e t i m e . He 23 was never an e m p l o y e e of my client. 24 MR. COHEN: Mr. Shein, I didn't want 25 to i n t e r r u p t you, just as - - the e x t e n t of my Knipes-Cohen A, ssoc,iates Castleman.CERT000609 1 1 3 2 k n o w l e d g e at t h i s t i m e , Mr. H o r o w i t z is 3 e m p l o y e d by the same insurance c a rrier that 4 was d i s c u s s e d in the d e p o s i t i o n in 1980. If 5 that is not c o r r e c t , if s o m e o n e w o u l d let me 6 know, that insurance carrier has been named. 7 THE W I T N E S S : I'm st i l l e m p l o y e d by 8 the same c o m p a n y that I was in 1980, yes. 9 MR. COHEN: That carrier has 1 0 b e e n n a m e d as a D e f e n d a n t in l a w s u i t s in the 11 U n i t e d States. They will be named again as a 12 D e f e n d a n t w i t h r e g a r d , at l e a s t , to c e r t a i n 13 cases where our law firm r epresents Plaintiffs. 14 It s h o u l d be n o t e d that his i n t e r e s t s , under 1 5 the r u l e s , w o u l d be such of a p a r t y , or at 16 best, has a d v e r s e interest and can be cross 1 7 e x a m i n e d to that extent, since the insurance 18 c a r r i e r is a D e f e n d a n t , has been n a m e d as a 1 9 c o - c o n s p i r a t o r , I think that should be brought 20 out w i t h r e g a r d to how P l a i n t i f f ' s c o u n s e l , at 21 least, or other Defense counsel may wish to 22 treat the witness. 23 I would just like to ask Mr. Shein, my 24 original thing before was, whether there would,be 25 an o b j e c t i o n to ha v i n g Mr. H o r o w i t z t e s t i f y as Knip es-Cohen A ssoci|ates Castleman.CERT000610 1 1 4 2 to any q u e s t i o n being u t i l i z e d in e v e r y case/ 3 if th e r e comes an a p p r o p r i a t e time that we may 4 have to edit the video for p a r t i c u l a r trials. 5 T h a t s h o u l d n ' t be a p r o b l e m / but r a t h e r than go 6 and repeat particular questions that you may ask 7 that I may have a vested i n t erest in likewise, 8 I w o u l d just like to see if we h a v e an u n d e r 9 s t a n d i n g tha t w h a t e v e r he says is u s e d in any 1 0 trial that has been noticed? 11 MR. SHEIN: Well, there are certain 12 m a t t e r s that we have in c o m m o n , o b v i o u s l y , they 13 w o u l d c e r t a i n l y be used there and we have no 14 o b j e c t i o n to b e i n g -- it b e i n g u s e d in e v e r y 1 5 case on which we have been n o t i c e d . I don't 1 6 mind that. We may have - 17 THE WITNESS: May I raise a point? 18 MR. GALLO: Off the record. 19 -HR. L O C K S : I d o n ' t want any off th 20 r e c o r d disc u s s ion s at this point. 21 MR. GALLO: In r e s p o n s e to - 22 MR. BROMBERG: Can I inquire, please, 23 as to any P l a i n t i f f has filed any M otion that 24 y o u ' r e aw a r e of, o b j e c t i n g to the p r e s e n t 25 p r o c e d u r e of t a k i n g this d e p o s i t i o n in more than Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000611 1 1 5 2 o n e case at the same t i m e ? 3 MR. GALLO: No, there has been no 4 o b j e c t i o n that I'm aware of. R esponding 5 briefly to Mr. Cohen, the insurance company 6 t h a t e m p l o y s Mr. H o r o w i t z is not a p a r t y to 7 any of the c a s e s in w h i c h t h i s d e p o s i t i o n is 8 n o t i c e d , t h e r e f o r e , his s t a t u s in this 9 d e p o s i t i o n is purely of a w i t n e s s and not as 1 0 an e m p l o y e e , b e c a u s e s i m p l y , his e m p l o y e r is 11 not a party. T h a t ' s the way in which we're 12 proceeding today. 13 MR. COHEN: Tha t ' s the way in which 14 you want to p r o c e e d . I do reserve the right, 1 5 upon amendment of certain c o m p l a i n t s that have 16 been n o t i c e d in this case, and I will treat the 17 w i t n e s s as s u c h , b e c a u s e his i n t e r e s t is i d e n t i c a l 18 as an alleged, c o - c o n s p i r a t o r with other 19 D e f e n d a n t s . So, we can a r g u e that at a n o t h e r 20 p o i n t , this is not the a p p r o p r i a t e t i m e , but - 21 MR. GALLO: I agree with that. 22 MR. SHEIN: I join in that o b j e c t i o n . 23 MR. BRUCH: I would like to say that 24 L e o n a r d H o r o w i t z is not r e p r e s e n t e d by any 25 attorney here today. Knipes-C_ ohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000612 1 1 6 2 MR . C O H E N : My next q u e s t i o n is - 3 I'm sorry. 4 MR. BRUCH: That's it/ Mitch. 5 No one is e x p l a i n i n g to Mr. H o r o w i t z u n d e r those 6 allegations. 7 MR . COHEN: I think my next questi on 8 was, whether any one is representing the 9 i n s u r a n c e c a r r i e r he re. or B , if Mr. Hor o w i tz 1 0 in an i n d i v i d u a l capacity/ and I state this, 11 because it's possible/ based upon testimony 12 that Mr. H o r o w i t z gives, Mr. Horowitz may 13 have a v e s t e d i n t e r e s t / which sho u l d be p r o t e c t e d 1 4 by c o u n s e l / and I t h i n k if he w i s h e s to p r o c e e d 1 5 without counsel/ he c ertainly has that right. 16 B u t / it s h o u l d be w i t h an u n d e r s t a n d i n g that he 17 may have certain rights that should be protected 18 so that he is not a d v e r s e l y a f f e c t e d , and that 19 he c e r t a i n l y has every right to c o n s u l t an 20 a t t o r n e y , if he w i s h e s , p r i o r to g i v i n g any 21 t e s t i m o n y , a n d if he w i s h e s to t e s t i f y 22 w i t h o u t coun s e l , he can p r o c e e d a c c o r d i n g l y . 23 MR. GALLO: Anything else? 24 MR. S H E I N : Has it b e e n e x p l a i n e d to 25 Mr. H o r o w i t z at all, does he u n d e r s t a n d the Knipes-Cohen A ssoci.ates Castleman.CERT000613 1 1 7 2 p o s s i b i l i t i e s of this s i t u a t i o n ? 3 MR. GALLO: Well, he has been here 4 l i s t e n i n g to Mr. Cohen's 5 MR . SHEIN: T h a t ' s the to t a l of the 6 explanation that counsel has given him? 7 MR. GALLO: I'm thinking Mr. 8 H o r o w i t z is a w a r e of what is t a k i n g p l a c e . 9 THE WITNESS: Mr. Horowitz would 1 0 like to say something. A p p a r e n t l y , I can say 11 it on or off the record. 12 MR. BRUCH: Yes, you can. 13 THE WITNESS: When I was approached 14 for the d e p o s i t i o n in J u n e of 19 8 0 , k n o w i n g that 1 5 my -- the company I worked for has insured 16 Keasbey- M a t ti s o n for the two years that I 17 worked for K ea s be y -M a tt i s on , I asked our legal 18 c o u n s e l to sit in to get t h e i r o p i n i o n w h e t h e r 19 I s h o u l d d e p o s e or not. A l t h o u g h I was told I 20 w o u l d h a v e to one way or a n o t h e r , and he said 21 it was p e r f e c t l y all r i g h t b e c a u s e we -- that 22 the c o m p a n y I worked for no longer insures - 23 or o n l y i n s u r e d for that p e r i o d that I w o r k e d , it /* 24 was then okay. You're b r i n g i n g in other cases 25 that the i n s u r a n c e c o m p a n y is i n v o l v e d with, and Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000614 1 1 8 2 I don't know w h e t h e r I'm p r o t e c t i n g my company's 3 interest or not. I really don't know. 4 MR. C O H E N : All I w i s h to say in 5 f a i r n e s s b e f o r e you t a k e a d e p o s i t i o n , is that 6 s u b s e q u e n t to that d e p o sition, which you took 7 in 1980, even t s have changed, such as your 8 e m p l o y e r has, as far as I'm aware, been name d 9 as a D e f e n d a n t and c o - c o n s p i r a t o r along with 1 0 other Defendants, -- 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 MR. COHEN: -- in the lawsuit. By 13 v i r t u e of that fact and by virtue of a n t i c i p a t e d 14 e v e n t s w h i c h I p e r s o n a l l y b e l i e v e will be 1 5 a p p r o p r i a t e in r e p r e s e n t i n g the c l i e n t s that we 16 represent, that same thing may occur again 17 shortly. Now, to the extent that you provide 18 t e s t i m o n y , that t e s t i m o n y may or may not be used 19 a d v e r s e l y to yo u r s e l f and to your e m p l o y e r , and y 20 and you r e m p l o y e r may have the same i n t e r e s t , or 21 you may have completely different interests, 22 such that you may have to seek i n d e p e n d e n t 23 c o u n s e l . So that both of you are p r o t e c t e d , 24 I'm just s u g g e s t i n g to you that if you w i s h to 25 t e s t i f y h e r e , c e r t a i n l y that is your r i g h t , but es-Co,hen Ai ssoci.at.es Castleman.CERT000615 1 1 9 2 you s h ould be aware that based upon t e s t i m o n y 3 you give, that may impact a d v e r s e l y to you 4 p e r s o n a l l y or to your e m p l o y e r , p e r s o n a l l y , as 5 a corporate entity. 6 MR. BRITTON: Hadn't you just stated 7 t h i s f i v e m i n u t e s ago? Is t h e r e a n e e d to put 8 it on the r e c o r d a g a i n ? 9 MR. COHEN: I don't know that Mr. 10 Horowitz completely understands. 11 THE WITNESS: I appreciate the fact 12 that you have. S e c o n d l y , I wo u l d Like to 13 i n f o r m the p e o p l e here that in the first case, 14 my c o m p a n y was a w a r e that I was d e p o s i n g in 1 5 this instance. They are not aware that I was 1 6 deposing. Only in that way, will I be p r i v a t e l y 1 7 effected, the fact that I'm here without their 18 knowledge. 19 MR . B R O M B E R G : I u n d e r s t a n d t h i s to be 20 a d e p o s i t i o n of a fact w i t n e s s who is g o i n g to 21 be s w o r n or has been sworn to be u n d e r oath to 22 tell the truth, and it's not anything other 23 t h a n t h a t . He is not a s k e d to p l e a d in the c a s e , 24 just to tell the truth in the case, as I u n d e r 25 stand it. Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000616 1 20 2 MR. BRITTON: That's correct. 3 MR. BROMBERG: I can't understand 4 the s t a t e m e n t s of v a r i o u s c o u nsel who feel that 5 this may have some negative effect on 6 American Mutual Liability Company, or upon the 7 w i t n e s s , h i m s e l f , in the f u t u r e . I s u p p o s e 8 that is p o t e n t i a l l y t r u e w h e n e v e r a w i t n e s s 9 t e s t i f i e s , but I'm sure Mr. H o r o w i t z , as I 1 0 s u p p o s e he has in the past, tells the truth 11 w h e n he is a s k e d q u e s t i o n s . 12 THE WITNESS: I will tell the 13 truth. 14 MR. GALLO: I want to note for the 1 5 record that Counsel for Cassier, Elizabeth Gibson, 1 6 has arrived. 17 (Whereupon discussions were held off 18 the record from 10:20 a.m. to 10:25 a.m.) 19 MR. BROMBERG: For the record, we've 20 had an off the record d i scussion, the only 21 point of which I would like to put on the record, 22 there has been no stipul a t i o n s or agreements 23 in rega r d to r e s e r v a t i o n of o b j e c t i o n s to 24 trial. All o b j e c t i o n s will be stated on the 25 record, or waived. Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castlernan.CERT000617 1 21 2 MR. LOCKS: I will affirmatively 3 join or not join in an o b j e c t i o n by ot h e r 4 P l a i n t i f f s ' c o u n s e l . And if I fail to s t a t e 5 a n y t h i n g , that is my not j o i n i n g in that 6 objection. 7 MR. B R O M B E R G : If I u n d e r s t a n d what 8 you said, you then would waive any objections 9 that you did not personally make? 1 0 MR. LOCKS: That's correct.. And 11 I might reconsider that for expeditious 12 h a n d l i n g of this p r o c e d u r e , if w h a t e v e r a g r e e m e n t 13 on o b j e c t i o n s you*'re seeki n g , Mr. B r o m b e r g , 14 is e q u a l l y a p p l i c a b l e to all D e f e n d a n t s . 1 5 MR. BROMBERG: I surely would. .1 6 MR. LOCKS: I don't know what the 17 p o s i t i o n of all D e f e n d a n t s are. U n t i l that is 18 done, I might reconsider. 1 9 MR. GALLO: Do all D e f e n d a n t s agree 20 that an o b j e c t i o n by one D e f e n d a n t i n u r e s to 21 the b e n e f i t of all - 22 MR. BRUCH: No, I don't agree to that. 23 MR. MASON: Okay, he has to object, 24 the rest of us do not. 2 5 MR. BROMBERG: We all agree other than Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000618 1 22 2 C e r t a i n t e e d , that when an o b j e c t i o n is made 3 by any D e f e n d a n t , it is as t h o u g h it was made 4 by all, for p u r p o s e s of p r e s e r v a t i o n of 5 record. 6 M R . G A L L O : Dan, y o u ' l l j o i n in e v e r y 7 o b j e c t i o n t h a t you want to join in then, 8 otherwise you're not objecting? 9 MR. BRUCH: I'll take exception 1 0 to that. 11 MR. GALLO: Mr. Locks, are you now 12 joining inwall objections without stating so? 13 MR . LOCKS: I will join in all o t her 14 Plaintiffs' counsel objections. 1 5 MR. B R O M B E R G : And that is t r u e of all 16 ot h e r P l a i n t i f f s , as well, we said off the 17 record. 18 MR. LOCKS: Mr. Gallo, you did mention 19 this was n o t i c e d in some twelve cases. 20 My n o t i c e c o n t a i n s eight c a s e s , so I'm going to 21 ask that you double check your count or rattle 22 the n a m e s of the cases. 23 MR . MASON: I only have ten cases. 24 MR . BRUCH: I have ten. 25 -- - Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000619 1 23 2 MR. FORTE: Ladies and gentlemen/ 3 we're now on the record. 4 Ladies and g e n t l e m e n of the Jury/ this 5 is a v i d e o t a p e d e p o s i t i o n for the Co u r t of 6 Common Pleas, Philadelphia County. 7 My name is C l a u d e F o r t e / a s s i s t i n g 8 t o d a y is E a r l e S t r a i n . I'm the v i d e o t a p e 9 o p e r a t o r and n o t a r y p u b l i c in and for the 1 0 C o m m o n w e a l t h of P e n n s y l v a n i a , e m p l o y e d by 11 Kni pes- C o h e n A s sociates, R egistered 12 Professional Reporters, 400 Market Street, 13 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. The court 14 r e p o r t e r for t o d a y is S u z a n n e M c L a u g h l i n 1 5 White. 1 6 T h e c a p t i o n . o f t o d a y ' s c a s e is as 17 follows, Donald Weisberg, Esquire and Meyer 18 A. B u s h m a n , E s q u i r e , C o - E x e c u t o r s of the 19 E s t a t e of M e l v i n P. T i m b e r s , v e r s u s Bell 20 A s b e s t o s M i n e s , et all. A d d i t i o n a l c a p t i o n s 21 in this m a t t e r will be a t t a c h e d to the w r i t t e n 22 record. 23 This d e p o s i t i o n is being taken on 24 behalf of the Defendant, Bell Asbestos Mines, 25 at the o f f i c e s of Knipes-Cofeen A s s o c i a t e s , 400 Knipes-Cohen A sso ciates Castleman.CERT000620 1 24 2 M a r k e t S t r e e t . A p p e a r a n c e s t o d a y are F. J a m e s 3 Gallo, Attorney for the Bell Asbestos Mines, 4 Ltd. O t h e r c o u n s e l i n v o l v e d in the l i t i g a t i o n 5 will be i d e n t i f i e d on the w r i t t e n record, i d e n t i f y 6 t h e m s e l v e s at the time of c r o s s e x a m i n a t i o n . 7 T o d a y ' s date is F e b r u a r y the 1st, 1 9 8 2 , 8 and the t i m e is 1 0 : 4 0 a.m.. T h e d e p o n e n t for 9 t o d a y is L e o n D. H o r o w i t z . 1 0 The r e p o r t e r will now swear in the 11 witness. 12 13 LEON D. HOROWITZ, after having first 14 been duly sworn, was examined and testified 1 5 as follows: 16 17 MR. MAS0N: Off the record. 18 MR. FORTE: Off the record, the time 19 i s 1 0 : 4 0. 20 MR. MASON: I o b j e c t to the 21 p r e p a r a t i o n of a v i d e o t a p e for p r e s e n t a t i o n in 22 the case where the caption mention, or where the 23 t r a n s c r i p t m e n t i o n s the c aption of an o t h e r and 24 different case. For example, I would object 25 to the t r a n s c r i p t b e i n g u s e d in E l s i e H a y d e n c a s e s K nipes-Cohen A sso ciates Castleman.CERT000621 1 25 2 mentioning the Weisberg case. I don't know 3 how y o u can set it up, the case t a p e for 4 each separate case should mention the caption 5 for that separate case only. 6 MR. BRUCH: I join in that o b j e c t i o n . 7 MR. BROMBERG: I would also. 8 MR. FORTE: Want to go back, read 9 t h a t , just say that the c a p t i o n s of t h e s e cases, 1 0 m a t t e r , will be a t t a c h e d to the w r i t t e n r e c o r d ? 11 I was given this as a starter. 1 2 MR. GALLO: Go back and do that. 13 M a k e all r e f e r e n c e s in the s i n g u l a r . 14 1 5 MR. FORTE: Ladies and gentlemen, 1 6 we're now on the record. 17 Lad i e s and g e n t l e m e n of the Jury, this 18 is a v i d e o t a p e d e p o s i t i o n for the Court of 19 CommonPleas. 20 My n a m e is C l a u d e F o r t e . A s s i s t i n g 21 me t o d a y is Mr. E a r l e S t r a i n . I'm e m p l o y e d 22 by K n i p e s - C o h e n A s s o c i a t e s , R e g i s t e r e d 23 Professional Reporters, 400 Market Street, 24 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. 25 The caption for todays cases will Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000622 1 26 2 be f o l l o w e d -- will be a t t a c h e d to the 3 written record. 4 T h i s d e p o s i t i o n is b e i n g taken 5 on behalf of Defendant, Bell A s b e s t o s Hines, 6 L i m i t e d , at the, o f f i c e of K n i p e s - C o h e n 7 Associates, 400 Market Street. 8 A p p e a r a n c e s t o d a y are, F. J a m e s 9 Gallo, Esquire, Attorney for the Defendant, 1 0 Bell Asbestos Mines. All other counsel are 11 p r e s e n t , and will be i d e n t i f i e d on the w r i t t e n 12 record. 13 The d e p o n e n t for t o d a y is Mr. L e o n D. 14 H o r o w i t z . T o d a y ' s d a t e is F e b r u a r y the 1st, 15 1982, and the time is 10 : 4 2 a.m. 16 The r e p o r t e r will now s f e a r in the 17 witness. 18 19 L E O N D. H O R O W I T Z , a f t e r having first 20 been duly sworn, was examined and testified 21 as f o l l o w s : 22 23 DIRECT EXAMINATION 24 25 BY MR . G A L L O : Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000623 1 L e o n H o r o w i t z Di r e c t 27 2 Q. Mr. H o r o w i t z , g o o d m o r n i n g . My n a m e is J a m e s 3 G a l l o . I r e p r e s e n t Bell A s b e s t o s M i n e s L i m i t e d in 4 this case. 5 Would you state your full name for 6 the record, pleas? 7 A. Leon David Horowitz. 8 Q. How old are you, sir? 9 A. I'm sixty-three and a half years old. 10 Q. And, where do you live? 11 A. I live in B u r l i n g t o n , M a s s a c h u s e t t s . 12 Q. And, your address? 13 A. 78 Macon Road, Burlington, Massachusetts. 14 Q. What do you do, sir? 1 5 A. I'm Chief I n d u s t r i a l Hygiene of the Hygiene 16 S e c t i o n for A m e r i c a n Mutual Insurance Company, 17 W a k e f i e l d , M a s s a c h u s e t t s . 18 Q. And, would you tell us, briefly, what your duties 19 involve? 20 A. I am d i r e c t o r of an a c c r e d i t e d l a b o r a t o r y , and 21 a S t a f f C o n s u l t a n t to F i e l d I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n i s t and 22 L o s s C o n t r o l C o n s u l t a n t s . \ 23 Q. Could, you tell us what an i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t 24 i s , p l e a s e ? 2 5 A. An i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t is a p e r s o n who es>,,Co,hen A. ssoc.iat.es Castleman.CERT000624 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 2 8 2 evaluates and measures and defines and controls - - 3 and helps c ontrol h a z a r d o u s c o n d i t i o n s due to toxic 4 d u s t s , v a p o r s and c h e m i c a l s in an i n d u s t r i a l 5 plant. 6 Q. W o u l d you tell us what y our e d u c a t i o n a l b a c k g r o u n 7 is , please? 8 A. I am a G r a d u a t e C h e m i c a l E n g i n e e r , B a c h e l o r of 9 C h e m i c a l E n g i n e e r i n g from the C o l l e g e of the City of 1 0 New York in 1942. I had one s e m e s t e r in C h e m i c a l 11 E n g i n e e r i n g at the U n i v e r s i t y of C o l o r a d o w i t h o u t any 12 -- no d e g r e e . T h a t is my f o r m a l e d u c a t i o n , 13 Q. After g r a d u a t i n g in 1942, what did you do? 14 A. I went to the War in 1 9 4 2 u n t i l 1 946. And then 15 was e m p l o y e d by the D i v i s i o n of I n d u s t r i a l H y g iene, 1 6 New York State D e p a r t m e n t of Labor for a p p r o x i m a t e l y 17 n i n e y e a r s . T h e n , I was a c o n s u l t a n t in the f i e l d of 18 I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n e for f o u r y e a r s in New Y o r k City. 19 A f t e r t h a t , I was e m p l o y e d by K e g s b e y and M a t t i s o n . 20 Q. In what ye a r, sir? 21 A. In the ye a r of 1960. And two ye a r s af t e r that, 22 C e r t a i n t e e d b o u g h t them out and I c o n t i n u e d w i t h 23 C e r t a i n t e e d in the year 1968. In 1 9 6 8 , I was e m p l o y e d 24 by my p r e s e n t c o m p a n y , A m e r i c a n M u t u a l I n s u r a n c e 25 C o m p a n y . Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000625 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 29 2 Q. Sir/ going back to your years with the 3 D i v i s i o n of I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n e for the State of 4 New Y o r k / c o u l d you give us some d e t a i l of what 5 your job involved? 6 A. E s s e n t i a l l y / it was two fold. One was as an 7 arm of the Safety Division/ we visi t e d industrial 8 plants throughout the -- throughout New York State, 9 and s u r v e y e d for w;h a t we c a l l , o c c u p a t i o n a l -- p o t e n t i a l 1 0 o c c u p a t i o n a l d isease hazards. And, we also examined 11 all e x h a u s t s y s t e m p l a n s , d e s i g n e d by all of i n d u s t r y 12 in New Y o r k S t a t e , made c o r r e c t i o n s and f o l l o w e d up by 13 t e s t i n g those s ystems, after they were installed. 14 Q- What was your title with the State? 1 5 A. I s t a r t e d as an I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n e E n g i n e e r , and 16 c o n t i n u e d when I left a s a Senior Industrial Hygiene 17 Engineer. 18 Q. Did your work with the State of New York i n v olve 1 9 you at all with i n d u s t r i e s that used a s b e s t o s ? 20 A. It i n v o l v e d all i n d u s t r i e s in New York Sta t e, 21 i n c l u d i n g a s b e s t o s , yes. 22 3. C o u l d you g i v e us s ome e x a m p l e s of i n d u s t r i e s 23 jsing a s b e s t o s that you w e r e i n v o l v e d in s u r v e y i n g ? 24 ^. The only industries I recall visiting were 25 the T o d d S h i p y a r d , and a c t u a l l y , it was a c o n t r a c t of Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000626 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 30 2 w h o was c u t t i n g up i n s u l a t i o n for p l u m b i n g s y s t e m s in 3 the Todd Shipyard. And one manufacturer that made 4 a s b e s t o s g l o v e s in U p - S t a t e New York in G l o v e r s v i l l e 5 A m s t e r d a m , I d o n ' t r e c a l l w h e r e it was. 6 MR . LOCKS : I 'm sorry, Mr. H o r o w i t z -- 7 THE WITNESS Yes. 8 MR . LOCKS: -- I didn't hear your 9 answer. 10 THE WIT NESS I -- the only involvement 11 w h i l e I w o r k e d with the D i v i s i o n of I n d u s t r i a l 12 H y g i e n e , in the State o f New York, was with a 13 c o n t r a c t o r for the T o d d S h i p y a r d s , in w h i c h they 14 were c u t t i n g up i n s u l a t i o n for p r e p a r a t i o n for 1 5 use in the Yard or on the ship, as well as an 16 a s b e s t o s g l o v e m a n u f a c t u r e r in G l o v e r s v i l l e or 17 Amsterdam, New York, somewhere around there. 18 BY MR. G A L L O : 19 Q. In your work as an I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n i s t from 20 1956 to 1960, aft e r you left the State of New York, 21 did y o u come in c o n t a c t w i t h any i n d u s t r i e s i n v o l v e d 22 w i t h a s b e s t o s ? 23 A. No,none. 24 q . During the course of your work for the State 25 of New Y o r k , w h a t w e r e the m e t h o d s that you used to Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000627 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 31 2 survey a particular dust hazard? 3 A. At that t i m e , the S t a t e of the art for all dust 4 was c a p t u r i n g the dust p a r t i c l e s in what was c a l l e d a 5 midget impinger, which contained a liquid isopropyl 6 a l c o h o l or w a t e r , and then was b r o ught back to the 7 laboratory for counting under what was called the 8 light field dust count method. 9 MR . SHEIN: I obj ect to the 1 0 witness' answer. The witness has been 11 c a l l e d as a fact w i t n e s s , and he is now 12 t e s t i f y i n g as an expert w i t ness as to 13 w hat the s t a t e of the art was at that 14 particular time. I move the answer and 1 5 the q u e s t i o n be stricken. 16 BY MR. G ALLO: 17 Q . Was the method which you just described, the 18 m e t h o d t h a t you a c t u a l l y u s e d in p e r f o r m i n g your 19 duties? 20 A. T h a t is the m e t h o d w h i c h I a c t u a l l y u s e d , 21 yes. 22 Q. And, was there a standard against which you 23 w e r e c o m p a r i n g the f i n d i n g s - 24 MR. SHEIN: Object to the 25 question-" Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000628 1 Leon Horowitz - Di rect 32 2 BY MR . GALLO : 3 Q. -- which you came u p w i t h ? 4 MR. SHEIN: -- as to s t a n d a r d , agai n 5 going into expertise. 6 BY MR. GALLO: 7 Q. You may answer. 8 MR. LOCKS: Also, o b j e c t to the 9 formofthequestion. 10 THE WIT N E S S : There i s no -- sorry. 11 THE COURT REPORTER: Object to the 12 form of the q u e s t i o n ? 13 MR . LOCKS : Correct. 14 BY MR . G A L L O : 15 Q . You m a y a n s w e r, Mr. H o r o w i t z ? 16 A . T h e e x e r c i s e of t a k i n g s a m p l e s is u s e l e s s 17 w i t h o u t c o m p a r i n g it to a s t a n d a r d , a nd t h e r e f o r e , 18 a s t a n d a r d had to be used. 19 Q . What was the s t a n d a r d wh i c h you used in t a k i n g 20 t h e s e dust c o u n t s ? 21 A . 22 23 24 25 The standard -- MR. SHEIN: Rather than my keep o b j e c t i n g , Let t h i s o b j e c t i o n , if you will agree, go to this e n tire Line of q u e s t i o n i n g of s t a n d a r d s , as I b e L ieve that caLLs for Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000629 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 33 2 e x p e r t t e s t i m o n y and o p i nion. And he has 3 only been offered a s a fact witness, 4 u n less you wish to change that? 5 MR. GALLO: No, I don't wish to 6 change it, and you certainly have a continuing 7 o b j e c t i o n to this line of q u e s t i o n i n g , Mr. 8 She in . 9 MR. SHEIN: Thank you. 10 THE WITNESS: WHat was the 11 question? 12 BY MR. GALLO: 13 Q. Wha t was the s t a n d a r d which was e m p l o y e d by 14 y o u in t a k i n g d u s t c o u n t s d u r i n g y o u r w o r k w i t h the 15 New York State D e p a r t m e n t of Labor, Mr. H o r o w i t z ? 16 A. T h e s t a n d a r d e m p l o y e d by me was five m i l l i o n 17 p a r t i c l e s per c u b i c foot as e s t a b l i s h e d by the A m e r i c a n 18 C o n f e r e n c e of G o v e r n m e n t a l I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n i s t s . 19 Q . 20 A. W h a t is that b o d y ? T h a t b o d y is a g r o u p of G o v e r n m e n t a l p e o p l e 21 who a n n u a l l y or s e m i - a n n u a l l y get t o g e t h e r and 22 d e c i d e on s t a n d a r d s s u c h as this. 23 Q. Is this a s t a n d a r d that was in use in areas 24 o t h e r t h a n New York S t a t e ? 25 MR. SHEIN: O b j e c t e d to as leading. Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castlernan.CERT000630 1 Leon Horowitz - Di rect 34 2 BY MR . GALLO : 3 Q. You may answer. 4 A. Y e s , it was. It's a N a t i o n a l s t a n d a r d . 5 Q. Was it at the t i m e that you w e r e u s i n g it? 6 A. It was a N a t i o n a l s t a n d a r d at the time I used 7 it . 8 Q. At s ome p o i n t in time, did you come to work for 9 Keasbey and Matt ison Company? 1 0 A. Yes, I did, 11 Q. E x p l a i n to us how you came to work for them. 12 A. A f t e r c o n s u l t i n g for four y e a r s , I w o u l d p e r u s e 13 the h e l p w a n t e d ads and in the New Y o r k T i m e s , t h e r e 14 was an a d v e r t i s e m e n t for a Dust C o n t r o l E n g i n e e r in 1 5 A m b l e r , P e n n s y l v a n i a , in 1960. 16 Q. Did you r'espond to it? 17 A. I r e s p o n d e d to it. 18 Q. And, as a result of r e s p o n d i n g to it, were you 19 h i r e d by K e a s b e y and Mat t i son? 20 A . Yes, I was. 21 Q . And, what month was that? 22 A. In, I b e l i e v e , May of 1960. 23 Q . What were your f u n c t i o n s as far as the 24 c a p a c i t y in w h i c h you w e r e h i r e d ? 25 A . I was hired to d e sign and have i n s t a l l e d Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000631 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 35 2 i n d u s t r i a l e x h a u s t systems p e r t a i n i n g to the control 3 of toxic dust, gases and fumes. 4 Q. A n d , did y ou r d u t i e s , t h e r e a f t e r e x p a n d , to 5 i n c l u d e o t h e r areas or f u n c t i o n s ? 6 A. Y e s , it did. I i n c l u d e d or my d u t i e s 7 included industrial hygiene work for the Company. 8 Q. And how does that differ from the Dust 9 Control Engineering which you explained a moment 10 ago? 11 A. As d e f i n e d e a r l i e r , an i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t ' s 12 f u n c t i o n is to r e c o g n i z e , e v a l u a t e and c o n t r o l the 13 h a z a r d s m e n t i o n e d , and a dust c o n t r o l e n g i n e e r , is 14 a very n a r r o w part of that in the control a s p ects 15 of a dust e x p o s u r e . 16 Q. Does the dust control engineer actually design 17 the e q u i p m e n t ? 18 A. He d e s igns the equipment. 19 Q. Did you do that? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. A f t e r C e r t a i n t e e d took o v e r the o p e r a t i o n of 22 c e r t a i n p l a n t s f r o m K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n , I b e l i e v e 23 y o u i n d i c a t e d t h a t was 1962. 24 A . Y e s . " 25 Q . Did your duties remain the same, or did they Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000632 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 36 2 c h a n g e , and if so, how? 3 A. They remained the same immediately, but 4 changed later on. 5 Q. Now, how did they change? 6 A. The Safety Director for Certainteed Products 7 left the company, when they sold one of their 8 d i v i s i o n s c a l l e d V e s t e r o l , and he went w ith them. 9 I believe G e o r g i a - P a c i f i c picked them up. And they 1 O a s k e d me to t ake o v e r his d u t i e s as S a f e t y D i r e c t o r 11 for the w h o l e c o m p a n y . 12 Q. That was a corporate-wide, company-wide - 13 A. A corporate-wide, company-wide position. 14 Q. About when did that occur? 1 5 A. I don't know exactly, but about '65, I would 16 say. 17 Q. From the time you were hired with Keasbey and 18 M a t t i s o n , what was the s c o p e of your d u t i e s in t e r m s 19 of the g e o g r a p h i c a l s c o p e ? 20 A. My f u n c t i o n in dust c o n t r o l c o v e r e d every 21 p l a n t that was p a r t of K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n . 22 Q . What plants did you v i s i t , as part of K e a s b e y 23 and N a t t i s o n ? 24 A. I v i s i t e d the local p l a n t s in A m b l e r . I may 25 get the n u m b e r s w r o n g , but t h e r e was a s h i n g l e p l a n t at _Knipes-Cohen Associat^es Castleman.CERT000633 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 37 2 t i m e , P l a n t 1, I b e l i e v e . 3 THE COURT REPORTER: The re was a 4 shingle plant -- 5 TH E W IT N ESS: T h e r e was a s h i n g l e 6 p l a n t in Ambi er. T h e r e was a pipe r a s b e s t o s 7 jnent pipe plant in Ambler. And there was 8 an i n s u l a t i o n p l a n t in A m b l e r , P la nt 4, I 9 b e l i e v e , which had an a t t a c h m e n t , a smaller 1 O pl a n t , wh i c h did some rubber a s b e s t o s type of 11 work. 12 BY MR . G A L L O : 13 Q . Did you v i s i t p l a n t s in o t h e r p a r t s of the 14 C o u n t r y ? 1 5 A. Yes, I did. I visited St. Louis, and I visited 16 S a n t a C l a r a . I v i s i t e d P e r t h A m b o y , in a r o o f i n g 17 p l a n t , and I v i s i t e d P l a n t 10 in a s b e s t o s t e x t i l e in 18 M e r e d i t h , New H a m p s h i r e . 19 Q. Allright. 20 After you became e m p l o y e d by C e r t a i n t e e d 21 did y o u c o n t i n u e to v i s i t p l a n t s nati oni de? 22 A. At that ti m e , the only K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n 23 p l a n t s r e t a i n e d by C e r t a i n t e e d w e r e the a s b e s t o s c e m e n t 24 p l a n t s , and u n t i l I b e c a m e S a f e t y D i r e c t o r , I v i s i t e d 25 the a s b e s t o s c e m e n t p l a n t s . Af t e r b e c o m i n g S a f e t y Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000634 1 Leon Horowitz - Di rect 38 2 D i r e c t o r , my f u n c t i o n as Dust C o n trol E n g i n e e r was 3 p a s s e d on to a n o t h e r d r a f t s m a n in the E n g i n e e r i n g 4 D e partment, under my t utelage,, you might say - - 5 THE COURT REPORTER: I couldn't 6 hear you. 7 THE WITNESS: Under my tutelage, 8 and I v i s i t e d all of C e r t a i n t e e d plants including 9 the roofing plants and their fiberglas plant, 10 which they picked up later on as well as 11 the asbestos cement plants. 1 2 BY MR. GALLO: 13 Q . At the time you went with Keasbey and Mat t i s o n 14 i n 1 9 6 0 , what was your u n d e r s t a n d i n g of the n a t u r e of 1 5 the a s b e s t o s r e l a t e d di s e a s e ? 16 MR. COHEN: Objection. 17 MR . SHEIN: Objection. 18 MR. COHEN: Again, you're calling for 1 9 a s t a t e m e n t that o n l y an e x p e r t is q u a l i f i e d to 20 give. T h e r e has been no q u a l i f i c a t i o n of Mr. 21 H o r o w i t z as to his abi lity to answer the 22 q u e s t i o n a c c u r a t e l y , So, I w o u l d o b j e c t to 23 any q u e s t i o n s going to his k n o w l e d g e or u n d e r - 24 standing unless "there' s q u a l i f i c a t i on . 25 BY MR . G A L L O : Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000635 1 Leon Horowi t z Di re c t 39 2 Q. You may answer the question, Mr. Horowitz. 3 What was your understanding - 4 A. My u n d e r s t a n d i n g as to the n a ture of this 5 d i s e a s e at t h a t t i m e , was that it was one of the - 6 what we call p neumoconiosis disease. 7 Q. What disease entity are you talking about? 8 A. T h a t has to do with a lung d i s e a s e due to 9 e x p o s u r e to dust. 10 Q . What is the n a m e of the d i s e a s e y o u ' r e t a l k i n g 11 a b o u t ? 12 A . Asbestos is . 13 Q. A n d# ;how did you understand that that disease 14 was c o n t r a c t e d ? 1 5 A. 16 17 18 By breathing - MR. LOCKS: Continuing objection. THE W I T N E S S : By b r e a t h i n g a s b e s t o s . MR. LOCKS: We have a continuing 19 objection, excuse me, Mr. Gallo, without restatin: 20 it for the same r e a s o n s s t a t e d to the p r i o r q u e s t i 21 MR. GALLO: Yes, sir. 22 BY MR. G A L L O : 23 Q . And, how did the s t a n d a r d of five mi l l i o n 24 p a r t i c l e s per c u b i c foot that you m e n t i o n e d e a r l i e r , 25 r e l a t e to the d i s e a s e ? ir . , K nipes-LiO hen A. ssoci.at.es Castleman.CERT000636 1 Leon Horowitz Di rect 40 2 MR. LOCKS: I object to that. 3 T h e r e is no f o u n d a t i o n w h a t s o e v e r that this 4 w i t n e s s has any k n o w l e d g e as to the c o m p o n e n t s 5 of that s t a n d a r d , the m a n n e r in w h i c h it was 6 d e v e l o p e d or, in f a c t , any i n f o r m a t i o n - - 7 MR. GALLO: All right, you have a 8 c o n t i n u i n g o b j e c t i o n to all q u e s t i o n s r e g a r d i n g 9 the standard and regarding the - 10 MR. LOCKS: I'm s t a t i n g an a d d i t i o n a l 11 b a sis, t here's no f o u n d a t i o n for this w itness 12 at this p o i n t in t i m e for that. 13 BY M R . G A L L O : 14 q . Did you have any u n d e r s t a n d i n g as to the m a n n e r 1 5 in w h i c h a s b e s t o s i s r e l a t e d to the five m i l l i o n 16 p a r t i c l e s per c u b i c foot s t a n d a r d ? 17 A. I b e l i e v e there was a study by the U.S. Public 18 H e a l t h S e r v i c e , w h i c h h e l p e d -- w h i c h was part of the 19 d o c u m e n t a t i o n and the r e a s o n i n g that the A C G I H , 20 A m e r i c a n C o n f e r e n c e of G o v e r n m e n t a l I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n 21 i s t s , d e c i d e d to use that as a s t a n d a r d , and we u s e d it 22 in the S t a t e of New York. 23 Q. 24 25 What was your - MR. LOCKS: I object to the answer, m o v e that it be s t r i c k e n on the b a s i s that the ' Kn' ipes-Cohen A" ssociates Castleman.CERT000637 1 Leon Horowitz - Di rect 41 2 w i t n e s s has s t a t e d , I b e l i e v e , any k i n d of 3 o p i n i o n s or s t a t e m e n t s about what he b e l i e v e s 4 is not p r o p e r t e s t i m o n y . 5 BY MR . GA L L O : 6 Q. When -- when you say that the standard you 7 b e l i e v e was used by the State of New York, was it, 8 in fact, the s t a n d a r d you were using? 9 A. I d i d n ' t say that I b e l i e v e it was used by the 1 0 S t a t e o f New Y o r k . It was used by the S t a t e of New 11 York. I s a i d , I b e l i e v e that it was - - the way it was 12 b r o u g h t out or b r o u g h t up was by the A C G I H b a s e d on a 13 s t u d y d o n e by the U.S. P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e . 1 4 MR. COHEN: Also, o b j e c t to it 1 5 as hearsay. 16 BY MR. G A L L O : 17 Q . What was your u n d e r s t a n d i n g as to whet h e r 18 a s b e s t o s , a s b e s t o s i s w o u l d o c c u r , if the s t a n d a r d 19 w e r e o b s e r v e d ? 20 MR. LOCKS: Object to the form of 21 the question. 22 BY MR. G A L L O : 23 Q. 24 A. You may answer. . The d e f i n i t i o n and e x p l a n a t i o n of a s t a n d a rd 25 in the A C G I H l i s t i n g , d e f i n e s the s t a n d a r d as a limit Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000638 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 42 2 that the people who promulgated the standard, believe 3 it will p r o t e c t e i g h t y p e r c e n t of t h o s e e x p o s e d to 4 asbestos. 5 MR. COHEN: Object to the testimony 6 based upon hearsay and based upon best evidence 7 r u l e . Ask that it be s t r i c k e n . 8 BY MR. GALLO: 9 q. Was that your u n d e r s t a n d i n g of the n a t u r e of 10 the s t a n d a r d in the way it r e l a t e d to a s b e s t o s i s at 11 the t i m e y o u w e n t w i t h K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n ? 12 A. That was my u n d e r s t a n d i n g . 13 Q. Did you have any k n o w l e d g e at that t i m e of any 14 o t h e r d i s e a s e s a l l e g e d to have been c a u s e d by 15 asbestos? 16 A. I had no k n o w l e d g e of any o t h e r d i s e a s e at that 17 t i m e t h a t was r e l a t e d to a s b e s t o s - - a s b e s t o s . 18 Q . All right. 19 At some time after join i n g K e a s b e y and 20 M a t t i s o n , did you learn of a s u s p e c t e d link b e t w e e n 21 a s b e s t o s e x p o s u r e and c a n c e r ? 22 A . 23 Q . 24 A . 25 Q . Yes, I did. How did that occur? I read it in the" l i t e r a t u r e s o m e w h e r e . What did you read, do you recall? Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000639 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 43 2 A. R e f e r e n c e to the fact that in other c o u n t r i e s , 3 Like England and South Africa, some investigation 4 c o ncluded or did not conclude, but did say there may 5 be an a s s o c i a t i o n to -- between the cancer, the lung 6 cancer and asbestos. 7 Q. 8 All right. Did you subsequently learn from anyone 9 through personal discussions that there was such a 10 suspected cancer? 11 MR. SHEIN: Counsel, you're saying 12 su b s e q u e n t l y, I'm not certain a date has 13 been gi v e n for this q u e s t i o n in the first 1 4 instance. 1 5 MR. GALLO: All right. 16 BY MR. GALLO: 17 q . Approximately what time did you come across 18 t h e s e a r t i c l e s that you just d e s c r i b e d ? 19 A. E a r l y in my c a r e e r w i t h K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n in 20 -- b e t w e e n May of 1960 and S e p t e m b e r of 1960. 21 q . At some p o i n t , still in 1960, did you have 22 p e r s o n a l d i s c u s s i o n s or did you p a r t i c i p a t e in any 23 c o n f e r e n c e s w h e r e the s u b j e c t was d i s c u s s e d ? 24 A. W e l l , p r i o r to t"h a t , I c o n t a c t e d my i n s u r a n c e 25 c o m p a n y to f i n d out what t h e y k n e w a b o u t it. T h e y sent Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000640 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 44 2 me a few a b s t r a c t s relating to the news that I had 3 read/ or the items that I had read. 4 MR. S H E I N : O b j e c t to it as h e a r s a y 5 unless items are going to be p r o d u c e d for 6 e x a m i n a t i o n at wh i c h time we may c o n t i n u e our 7 o b j e c t i o n / or r e c o n s i d e r it. 8 BY MR . GALLO: 9 Q. Did you s u b s e q u e n t l y or did y o u at some p o i n t 1 0 i n 1 960 z p a r t i c i p a t e in a d i s c u s s i o n w i t h a Dr . K n o x ? 11 A . Yes, I did. 1 2 MR . COHEN: Objection, it's leading. 1 3 MR . LOCKS: Objection. 14 BY MR . G A L L O : 15 Q . C o u l d you tell us who he is, p l e a s e ? 16 A . Dr. K n o x r e p r e s e n t e d T u r n e r - N e w a l l in a visit 17 t 0 the U n i t e d S t a t e s at that time. 18 Q . W o u l d y o u tell us what was d i s c u s s e d at that 19 m e e t i n g , a n d f i r s t of all, tell us w h e n it was 20 A. A g a i n , I do n ' t know the e x a c t d a t e , but it was 21 in 1 9 6 0 / s o m e w h e r e a r o u n d S e p t e m b e r . 22 Q. What was discussed? 23 A. T h e d i s c u s s i o n - - i t a p p e a r e d the p u r p o s e of 24 his v i s i t was to informatile m a n a g e m e n t of K e a s b e y and 25 M a t t i s o n that t h e r e w a s ' a n a s s o c i a t i o n b e t w e e n c a n c e r K_nipes-Cohen A ssociat, es Castleman.CERT000641 1 Leon Horowitz - D i r e c t 45 2 and asbestos exposure. 3 MR. BRUCH: I object to that Last 4 a n s w e r , and m o v e that it be s t r i c k e n . 5 BY MR . G A L L O 6 Q. Did you p a r t i c i p a t e in the m e e t i n g ? 7 A. 8 yes I was i n v i t e d and I sat in in the m e e t i n g , 9 Q. Who e ls e was at the m e e t i n g that you r e c a l l ? 10 A . I recall that my immediate supervi sor, Mr. 11 A l S p e d d i ng, was t h e r e , V i c e - P r e s i d e n t of E n g i nee r i n g 12 S c h n e i d e r , I t h i n k or -- 13 THE COURT REPORTER: Schneider? 1 4 TH E W I T N E S S : I b e l i e v e it was 1 5 Schneider, yes, was there, and I believe a 16 Mr. H. B. -- I k n o w a M r . H. B. C h i l d s was 17 there. I think Mr. Hutchcroft was there, and 18 I have no real recoll e c t i o n whether the 19 P r e s i d e n t of the C o m pany was there. I just 20 . t h i n k he ought to -- he s h o u l d have been there 21 and probably was, but I'm not sure. 22 BY MR . G A L L O : 23 Q. What is Mr. C h i l d s ' p o s i t i o n -- what was his 24 p o s i t i o n ? " 2 5 M R . L O C K S : I o b j e c t to that. It Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000642 1 LeonHorowitz-Direct 46 2 c a l l s -- it must call for h e a r s a y . 3 BY MR. GALLO: 4 Q. You may answer. 5 A. My c ontact with h im had to do with c la im s 6 and h e had r e c o r d s of vari ous c l a i m s due to acci dents 7 and s 0 on. so I d o n ' t reca ll any p a r t i c u l a r t i t l e . 8 but I - - I b e l i e v e he had a r e l a t i o n s h i p with 9 insurance for the company, that's about alt 10 I k n o w . 11 MR. LOCKS: Move to strike the 12 answer for the same reasons I talked about 13 b e f o r e / that the w i t n e s s is s a y i n g what 14 he b e l i e v e s and that is not p r o p e r 1 5 testimony. 16 BY MR . G A L L O : 17 Q. Wh e n you say, you b e l i e v e that he held those 18 p o s i t i o n s / t h i s is b a s e d u p o n y o u r e x p e r i e n c e in 19 w o r k i n g w i t h him; is that c o r r e c t ? 20 MR. LOCKS: Jim, I'm awful sorry, 21 I didn't hear a single thing you said, thank you 22 to Joe l. 23 MR. GALLO: I'll ask the reporter 24 to read b a c k the" q u e s t i o n a n d a n s w e r , p l e a s e . 25 THE COURT REPORTER: Question: When Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000643 1 Leon Horowi t z Di re c t 47 2 you say, you b e l i e v e that he held those 3 p o s i t i o n s / this is b a s e d u p o n y o u r 4 e x p e r i e n c e in w o r k i n g with him; is 5 thatcorrect? 6 BY MR. GALLO: 7 Q. Answer? 8 A. Answerisyes. 9 Q. And what was Mr. H u t c h c r o f t ' s p o s i t i o n with 10 Keasbey and Mattison? 11 A. He was in charge of r e s earch/ R & D / Rese a r c h 12 a n d D e v e l o p m e n t . 13 Q. And Mr. Schneider, what was his post? 14 A. He was V i c e - P r e s i d e n t of E n g i n e e r i n g . 1 5 Q. And was .he. the s u p e r i o r of Mr. S p e d d i n g , who 16 was y o u r i m m e d i a t e s u p e r i o r ? 17 A. Yes, he .was. 18 Q. 1 9 What was d i s c u s s e d at that m e e t i n g ? MR. C O H E N : O b j e c t i o n , it c a l l s for 20 hearsay. 21 BY M R . G A L L O : 22 Q . You may answer. 23 A . I d o n ' t r e c a l l the w h o l e di s c u s s i o n , but the 24 p art that I do r e c a l l in the time I sat in. was the 25 u r g e n c y that Dr . Knox i n f o r m e d the m a n a g e m e n t , or was ,,Kmpes-C_io.nen A. ssoc.iat.es Castleman.CERT000644 1 Leon Horowitz Direct 48 2 t r y i n g to i n f o r m the m a n a g e m e n t that the a w a r e n e s s of 3 the a s s o c i a t i o n b e t w e e n ' c a n c e r and a s b e s t o s in E n g l a n d 4 was m u c h g r e a t e r t h a n it was in the U n i t e d S t a t e s . He 5 did show us a picture, which described a mesothelioma 6 w h i c h I had n e v e r h e a r d of b e f o r e , and it was the 7 f i r s t t i m e I h e a r d of it at that time. 8 Q. As a r esult of your p a r t i c i p a t i o n in that 9 meeting, did you initiate certain procedures and guide 10 lines for the K e a s b e y and Mat t i son C o m p a n y ? 11 A. We o r g a n i z e d under Mr. Childs' direction, a 12 L o s s C o n t r o l C o m m i t t e e , and I was a s k e d to p r o p o s e 13 an i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n e p r o g r a m . 14 Q. Did you, in fact, make such p r o p o s a l ? 15 A . I did so . 16 Q . All right. 17 I wo u l d ask you to , sir, re f e r to the 18 d o c u m e n t s w h i c h y o u have b r o u g h t w i t h you, and r e f e r 19 y o u, s p e c i f i c a l l y , to the d o c u m e n t that' s been m a r k e d 20 H o r o w i t z 2. 21 A. Y e s , I h a v e it. 22 Q . W o u l d you tell us what that is, sir / f i r s t of 23 a l l , r e a d the t i t l e of it , and the date at the end, 24 p l e a s e . 25 A. The title is, Proposed Industrial Hygiene Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000645 1 Leon Horowi t z Di re c t 49 2 P r o g r a m for all K&M P l a n t s , the date is 6 / 1 7 / 1 9 6 0 . 3 Q. Allright. 4 A. So, apparently, themeeting was before 5 that. 6 Q. But, this is the o u t l i n e w h i c h you d r e w up 7 p u r s u a n t to the d i s c u s s i o n s at that m e e t i n g ; , i s 8 thatcorrect? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q . W o u l d you p l e a s e read forus the three main 11 s e c t i o n s - - 12 MR. SHEIN: I'm g o i n g to o b j e c t to 13 t h a t . T h e d o c u m e n t has b e e n m a r k e d and it 14 certainly speaks for itself. 15 BY M R . G A L L O : 16 Q. Mr. H u t c h c r o f t -- or Mr. H o r o w i t z , is t h i s a 17 d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u , y o u r s e l f , w r o t e ? 18 A. I wrote this. 19 Q. A n d to w h o m did it go in the K e a s b e y m a n a g e 20 m e n t -- K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n m a n a g e m e n t ? 21 A. To Mr. Childs and Mr. Spedding, of course. 22 Q. To a n y o n e else, to your k n o w l e d g e ? 23 A. Probably, Mr. Schneider. 24 Q. A n d , does t h i s d o c u m e n t c o m e f r o m y o u r p e r s o n a l 25 f i l e ? Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000646 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 50 -L.> A . Y es, it does. . 3 Q. W o u l d you plea s e read to us the first two 4 items u n d e r A? 5 A. N u m b e r one is e v a l u a t e e x i s t i n g e x h a u s t s y s t e m s 6 and dust control e q u i p m e n t by e n g i n e e r i n g methods, 7 e t c e t e r a , e a c h s y s t e m to be t e s t e d at least o n c e each 8 y e a r . And n u m b e r two is i n i t i a t e m o n i t o r i n g p r o g r a m 9 to i n c l u d e dust counts of a t m o s p h e r i c s a m ples 1 0 o b t a i n e d at e ach o p e r a t i n g m a c h i n e , as well as in the 11 g e n e r a l air in t h e p l a n t . 12 Q. Would you explain to us, please, exactly how 13 a dust c o u n t is t a k e n in an i n d u s t r i a l s e t t i n g ? 1 4 MR. COHEN: O b j e c t i o n , o b j e c t i o n as 1 5 to how any dust count is t a k e n at any p a r t i c u l a r 16 s e t t i n g , u n l e s s we can r e l a t e it s p e c i f i c a l l y to 17 dust counts that this witness took. 18 MR. GALLO: Fair enough. I'll 19 rephrase the question. 20 BY M R . G A L L O : 21 Q. W o u l d you tell us e x a c t l y how you took the dust 22 c o u n t s at K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n ? 23 MR. SHEIN: I have to voice a further 24 o b jection that this would call for expert 25 t e s t i m o n y on e x p e r i e n c e and m a n n e r of t aking dust Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000647 1 Leon Horowi t z Di re c t 51 2 c o u n t s , and a g a i n , it has b e e n s p e c i f i c a l l y 3 s t a t e d the w i t n e s s is a fact w i t n e s s . 4 BY MR . GALLO : 5 Q. You can answer, Mr. Horowitz, tell us, 6 f a c t u a l l y , how you did it. 7 A. T he m e t h o d used is c a l l e d the i m p i n g e r m e t ho d . 8 T h e m a t e r i a l u s e d to r e t a i n or c a t c h the dust is 9 i s o p r o p y l a L c h o h o l . It is put in a glass' b o t t l e 1 0 c a l l e d an i m p i n g e r f l a s k . T h e - - it is -- it is 11 c o n n e c t e d to, at that t i m e , it was c o n n e c t e d to 12 a h a n d o p e r a t e d p u m p w i t h a r u b b e r h o s e and the pump 13 was o p e r a t e d by m y s e l f , by h a n d , s i m i l a r to an o r g a n 14 g r i n d e r t y p e of t h i n g , and the g l a s s tube in w h i c h 15 the d u s t was c o l l e c t e d was h e l d as c l o s e to the 16 b r e a t h i n g zone of the o p e r a t o r as p o s s i b l e , by me. 17 Q. When you say the operator, who are you 18 r e f e r r i n g to? 19 A. The p e r s o n that we - w e r e trying to de t e r m i n e 20 t he e x p o s ure . 21 Q. Were these dust counts taken when the 22 p r o d u c t i o n o p e r a t i o n was a c t u a l l y g o i n g on? 23 A. When it was -- when the o p e r a t i o n was 24 a c t u a l l y g o i n g on, yes. 25 Q. Is that the o nly way that t hey can be tak e n ? Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000648 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 52 2 A. No, it c o u l d be t a k e n at m any c o n d i t i o n s , but 3 whatever the conditions are, you enumerate the 4 c o n d i t i o n s and then you e v a l u a t e by s a y i n g , by 5 knowing what the conditions were when you took the 6 s a m p l e . So, we might be o p e r a t i n g the m a c h i n e heav i l y 7 or l i g h t l y , or not at all, n e v e r t h e l e s s , that is p a r t 8 of the evaluation. 9 Q. The individual, whose exposure was being 10 measured, was this a production line worker? 11 A . it c o u l d be a p r o d u c t i o n tine w o r k e r , it 12 c o u l d be a h e l p e r , it c o u l d be anybody. 13 q . All r i g h t , it was an e m p l o y e e of the c o m p a n y 14 w o r k i n g in the p l a n t ? 1 5 A. It was an e m p l o y e e of the c o m pany, yes, who 16 was e x p o s e d . 17 Q . And, how long would you stand there taking 18 the c o u n t , how long did t h i s u s u a l l y t a k e ? 19 A . At that ti m e , t h r e e ten m i n u t e s a m p l e s were 20 o b t a i n e d at e a c h o p e r a t i o n . And the r e s u l t s w e r e 21 a v e r a g e d for r e p o r t i n g p u r p o s e s . 22 q . Can you i n d i c a t e to us just how close you would 23 h a v e to h o l d the i n t a k e t u b e to the o p e r a t o r ? 24 A. I w o u l d have to s t a n d and hold it as c l o s e - 25 Q . It's not going to -- indicate on your own p e rson. Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000649 1 Leon Horowitz Di rect 53 2 if you would. 3 A. As c l o s e to the b r e a t h i n g z o n e , w h i c h is the 4 nose, as p o s s i b l e , w i t h o u t i n t e r f e r e n c e . 5 Q. And, was this the method that was used during 6 your years, both with Keasbey Mattison and with 7 Certai nteed? 8 A. That was the only method I used during those 9 periods. 1 0 Q. And that's an eight year period, am I 11 c o r r e c t ? 12 A. T h a t ' s an eight year period. 13 Q . W o u l d you p l e a s e read, for us the three items 14 u n d e r N u m b e r t h r e e of t h i s d o c u m e n t . 1 5 A. For in -- for i n a d e q u a t e existing exhaust systems, 16 a, r e c o n s t r u c t w h e r e p o s s i b l e , b, r e p l a c e o b s o l e t e 17 and i n a d e q u a t e e q u i p m e n t , c, c o m p l e t e l y r e d e s i g n 18 e x h a u s t s y s t e m , w h e r e n e c e s s a r y . 19 Q. And, w o u l d you read items b and c, p l e a s e ? 20 A. B and C under three? 21 Q , T h e m a i n i t e m s , B and C. 22 A. On the back, I'm sorry. 23 U n d e r i t e m b, p e r s o n a l r e s p i r a t o r y 24 p r o t e c t i v e e q u i p m e n t to" be u s e d o n l y as a s e c o n d a r y 25 m e a n s of d u s t c o n t r o l , and c, m e d i c a l c o n t r o l . Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000650 1 2 Q. Leon Horowitz Di rect 54 Would you read the subsections under Medical 3 Control, please? 4 A. 1, is p r e - e m p l o y m e n t a n d r o u t i n e p h y s i c a l 5 e x a m i n a t i o n s , i n c l u d i n g x - r a y s , 2, r o t a t i o n of 6 e m p l o y e e s w h e r e r e q u i r e d , and 3, e d u c a t i o n for p e r s o n a l 7 and industrial hygiene. 8 Gt. U n d e r item b, w h e r e you refer to p e r s o n a l 9 r e s p i r a t o r y p r o t e c t i v e e q u i p m e n t as b e i n g s e c o n d a r y , as 10 a m e a n s of dust c o n t r o l , what is m e a n t by t h a t ? 11 A. My p o s i t i o n , as well as m a n y o t h e r s in i n d u s t r i a l 12 h y g i e n e is that dust -- that r e s p i r a t o r y is a - - 13 o n l y a t e m p o r a r y and not a p o s i t i v e m e t h o d of p r o t e c t i o n 14 of the w o r k e r . 1 5 Q. What -- if r e s p i r a t o r use is s e c o n d a r y , what 16 did you u n d e r s t a n d at that time to be p r i m a r y ? 17 A. E n g i n e e r i n g m e t h o d , change of p r o c e s s , i n d u s t r i a l 18 e x h a u s t s y s t e m s , t h i n g s like t h a t . 19 Q . Would you please now refer to the document 20 t h a t ' s been m a r k e d H o r o w i t z 3. 21 . MR. COHEN: Let me just i n t e r p o s e an 22 o b j e c t i o n w i t h r e g a r d to H o r o w i t z 2, in that 23 the w i t n e s s has not been a s k e d to r e a d -- he 24 has been read -- asked, rather, to read sele c t e d 25 p o r t i o n s u n d e r the d o c u m e n t c o m p l e t e n e s s , if he Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000651 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 55 2 is to r e a d the e x h i b i t , it s h o u l d be r e a d in 3 t o t o , r a t h e r t h a n s e l e c t i v e l y o m i t t i n g a r e a s of 4 the d o c u m e n t which may not be as b e n e f i c i a l 5 to the w i t n e s s . I ask that he read the 6 e n t i r e s e c t i o n u n d e r B , and if he's g o i n g to 7 read the e x h i b i t again, that we go t h r o u g h 8 it, in toto. 9 M R . G A L L O : Y o u r o b j e c t i o n is 1 0 noted. 11 BY MR . G A L L O : 12 Q . W o u l d y o u p l e a s e r e f e r to H o r o w i t z 3. 13 Would you please read to us, sir, 14 the t i t l e a n d d a t e of the d o c u m e n t . 15 A . N o t e s on P a p e r s at 1 3 t h I n t e r n a t i o n a l C o n g r e s s 16 o n O c c u p a t i o n a l H e a l t h , and the date is A u g u s t 3rd, 17 1 960. 18 Q . Is this a d o c u m e n t a u t h o r e d by y o u ? 19 A . 20 Q . Y e s , it is. And, to whom did the document go? 21 A. It went to Mr. S p e d d i n g . I was r e p o r t i n g on a 22 m e e t i n g . 23 . 24 All right. W o u l d "you tell us the c i r c u m s t a n c e s 25 of that m e e t i n g and y o u r a t t e n d a n c e , w e r e you a s k e d to K nipes-Lohen A. ssoc.iates Castleman.CERT000652 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 56 2 attend by some -- one o f your superiors ? 3 A. Usually, I ask t0 attend myself and was given 4 p e r m i s s i o n . And, I 'm sure t h a t ' s what o c c u r r e d in 5 this case. 6 Q. D u r i n g the c o u r s e of your work with K e a s b e y 7 and Mattison and Certai n t e e d / did you attend various 8 meetings dealing with industrial hygiene? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. M e e t i n g s by v a r i o u s o r g a n i z a t i o n s ? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. A n d , was it y o u r u s u a l p r a c t i c e to r e p o r t to 13 y o u r s u p e r i o r s the t r a n s a c t i o n s of t h e s e m e e t i n g s ? 14 A. Only those that were p e r t i n e n t to our problems. 1 5 Q. And those problems beingwhat, sir? 16 A. A n y t h i n g having to do withe x p o s u r e to a s b e s t o s 17 d u s t , s i l i c a d u s t , talc and m i c a , e t c e t e r a . 18 W e r e t h e s e all s u b s t a n c e s that were u s e d in the 19 Keasbey and Mattison and Certainteed processes? 20 A. Yes, they were. 21 Q. And, is this a s u m m a r y or a true and correct 22 copy of a s u m mary that you p r e p a r e d from this part i c u l a r 23 m e e t i n g ? 24 A. Yes, it was. 25 MR. SHEIN: I object to the document, Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000653 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 57 Oi_ any r e f e r e n c e to it, as it is r e p l e t e w i t h 3 h e a r s a y . And the c o n c l u s i o n s of the w itness 4 which conclus ions necessarily call for 5 experti se. 6 BY MR . G A L L O : 7 Q. Mr. Horowitz, would you please read paragraph 8 A. The relation between asbestos and lung cancer 9 has not been firmly established. 10 to industry require much study. 11 Q. Thankyou. Lung cancer related 12 MR. BRUCH: Can we have a date on 13 that document? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, that was the 1 5 August 3rd, 1960. 16 MR. SHEIN: And I specifically 17 obj e c t to that s t a t e m e n t as being a c o n c l u s i o n 18 d e r i v e d from listing to m u l t i p l e t e s t i m o n y , which 19 c o n c l u s i o n s may be in error. 20 BY MR. GALLO: 21 Q. W o u l d you p l e a s e t u r n to H o r o w i t z 4. 22 Have you looked at that d o c u m e n t , 23 sir? 24 A Yes. 25 Q W o u l d you tell us what it is e n t i t l e d , and what K nipes-Cohen A sso ciates Castleman.CERT000654 1 Leon Horowitz Direct 58 2 the date is? 3 A. The t i t l e is Dust C o l l e c t i o n C u t - O f f Saw, and 4 the d a t e is A u g u s t 1 9 t h / 1960. 5 Q. It a p p e a r s to be a l e t t e r , sir; is that what 6 it is? 7 Yes , it is. 8 W h o's it g o i n g t 0 and w h o ' s it f r o m ? ' 9 It's g o i n g to M r . C h a r l e s D. F r e n c h , who is Plant 1 0 M a n a g e r of P l a n t 8 at the time, and it was w r i t t e n 11 by my s u p e r v i s o r , A. W. S p e d d i n g . 12 Q . Did you have a n y t h i n g to do with the w r i t i n g 13 of this l e t t e r ? 1 4 A. I was asked to d e t e r m i n e a desi g n for this 1 5 p a r t i c u l a r o p e r a t i o n , and the letter was w r i t t e n by 16 the -- by my s u p e r v i s o r . 17 Q. . 18 Could you -- MR . LOCKS: Would you be kind enough 19 to read that answer back, Miss Reporter? 20 (Whereupon the court reporter read 21 back the previous answer.) 22 BY M R . G A L L O : 23 Q . 24 A. 25 Q . Try and keep your voice up, Mr. Horowitz. Yes, I'm sorry. " Did you have anything to do with f urnishing the Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000655 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 59 2 information that went into this Letter? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q. W o u l d you p l e a s e read to us the f i r s t 5 paragraph? 6 A. You are p r o b a b l y a w a r e that it is C e n t r a l 7 E n g i n e e r i n g D i v i s i o n 's r e s p o n s i b i l i t y to m a i n t a i n a 8 h e a l t h y and dust free i n d u s t r i a l a t m o s p h e r e in all 9 K & M P l a n t s . One m e t h o d of o b t a i n i n g such c o n d i t i o n s 1 0 is to p r o p e r l y r e d e s i g n a n d / o r i n s t a l l e x h a u s t 11 s y s t e m s for new m a c h i n e s or r e l o c a t i o n of o l d o n e s . 12 With this in mi n d / our dust c o n t r o l s e c t i o n was 13 r e q u e s t e d to d e s i g n an e x h a u s t s y s t e m for y o u r new 14 c u t - o f f saw for r e w o r k i n g pipe. 15 Q . The r e f e r e n c e to the word -- to the term, dust 16 free in the f i r s t s e n t e n c e / was that i n t e n d e d to 17 i n c l u d e a s b e s t o s d u s t ? 18 MR. LOCKS: I object. 19 MR. COHEN: Objection, the witness has 20 s t a t e d that a, he did not write the m e m o r a n d u m / 21 it is h e a r s a y as to w h e t h e r any -- as to who 22 a u t h o r e d it. Now, we're asking the wi t n e s s to 23 get into the mind of the author of that d o c u m e n t 24 and a n t i c i p a t e what was meant by the author. 25 I w o u l d o b j e c t to it on t h a t b a s i s , and I w o u l d Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000656 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r ec t 60 2 Like to take a continuing o b j e c t i o n to the 3 p r a c t i c e of having the witness s e l e c t i v e l y 4 rea d a p a r a g r a p h or line in an e x h i b i t to 5 t h e e x c l u s i o n of o t h e r m a t e r i a l that is 6 c ontained on there. 7 MR. GALLO: You can have a 8 c o n t i n u i n g objec t i o n to that. 9 BY MR. GALLO: 10 Q. Would you answer the question, please, Mr. 11 H o r o w i t z ? 12 A. I w o u l d like to hear it a g a i n , p l e a s e ? 13 Q. Did the term, dust free, include asbestos 14 d u s t ? 15 A . Yes, e s p e c i a l l y in p a r t i c u l a r to this cut-off 16 saw. 17 Q. Whywasthat? 18 A. Because the cut-off saw was cutting asbestos 19 cement pipe. 20 Q . And, th e r e ' s reference to a dust control 21 s e c t i o n , wh a t is t h a t ? 22 A. That was me. 23 Q. Did you have any assis t a n c e or u n d e r s t u d i e s? 24 A. I had, for a sho'rt t i m e , in t r a i n i n g , a y o u n g 25 r e c e n t G r a d u a t e of D r e x e l , J o h n M c G i n n e y , who Mr. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000657 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - D i r e c t 61 OL. S p e d d i n g asked me to use as an a s s i s t a n t in th e f i e l d 3 of dust control and industrial hygiene, yes. 4 Q. Did he a s s i s t you in t a k i n g dust c o u n t s ? 5 A. For a short time. 6 Gt. Incidentally, these documents that we've 7 d i s c u s s e d so far, are t h e s e d o c u m e n t s t h a t you kept in 8 your fil e at K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n in the r e g u l a r 9 course of your duties? 10 A. Yes, they were. 11 Q. W o u l d you turn toH o r o w i t z 6, p l e a s e ? Would 12 you read the title of that, please, and the date? 13 A. T h e d a t e is O c t o b e r 1 3 t h , 1960. It was d i r e c t e d 14 to all P l a n t M a n a g e r s and the t i t l e was R e s p i r a t o r 15 Program for all K&M Plants. 16 Gt. I notice on this document that the term, K&M 17 has b e e n c r o s s e d out at v a r i o u s p o i n t s , and has been 18 r e p l a c e d by CPC. W o u l d you e x p l a i n why that c h a n g e 19 w a s m a d e ? 20 A. The same document was intended and was used for 21 d i r e c t i o n to all P l a n t M a n a g e r s a f t e r C e r t a i n t e e d 22 P r o d u c t s C o r p o r a t i o n t o o k over the o p e r a t i o n . 23 Gt. 24 All right. I n o t i c e d , t h e r e ' s a n o t a t i o n at the 25 b o t t o m of the p a g e . T h i s m e m o r a n d u m was i s s u e d in 1 9 6 0 , K^nipes-C_ o,nen A. ssoci.at, es Castleman.CERT000658 1 Leon Horowitz Di rect 62 2 and must be s t r i c t l y e n f o r c e d . And t h e r e are some 3 dates after that. Do they have any m e a n i n g ? 4 A. T h e y have m e a n i n g as to when I r e i s s u e d it. 5 Q. Would you read those dates to us, please? 6 A. August 9th , 1967, and December 6th , 1967. 7 Q. All right. 8 T h i s is a -- is t h i s a d o c u m e n t that 9 was w r i t t e n by you? 10 A. It was w r i t t e n by me. 11 <3. Is t h a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e at the b o t t o m ? 12 A. T h a t is my s i g n a t u r e at the b o t t o m . 13 Q. W o u l d you p l e a s e read to us the first p a r a g r a p h 14 and the p o r t i o n of the s e c o n d paragraph/, b e f o r e the 15 numbers? 16 MR. SHEIN: I'm going to ob j e c t to 17 this document and all others that have 18 r e f e r e n c e to t h i s , b e c a u s e a l t h o u g h it says 19 it must be e n f o r c e d , he has not t e s t i f i e d 2 0 w h e t h e r it was, or his k n o w l e d g e in that re gard 21 at a ll. 22 MR. G A L L O : Your o b j e c t i o n is noted. 23 BY MR. G A L L O : 24 Q. Would you p l e a s e r e a d those two sections, 25 p l e a s e , Mr. H o r o w i t z ? Knipes-Cohen A.ssoc.iat.es Castleman.CERT000659 1 Leon Horowitz Direct 63 2 A. First p a r a g r a p h / dust r e s p i r a t o r s must be 3 u s e d by K & M p e r s o n n e l at all o p e r a t i o n s i n v o l v i n g 4 the use of silica/ cement/ mica/ talc and asbestos 5 d u st. K&M was c r o s s e d out w h e n it was c h a n g e d to 6 CPC. The second paragraph - 7 THE COURT REPORTER: To - 8 THE WITNESS: CPC or C e rtainteed 9 Products Corporation. 1 0 A second paragraph/ a program for the 11 use and care of dust r e s p i r a t o r s must be 12 p r o m u l g a t e d at e a c h p l a n t in o r d e r to p r o t e c t 13 the h e a l t h of o p e r a t i n g p e r s o n n e l . It is 14 the r e s p o n s i b i l i t y of the P l a n t M a n a g e r to 1 5 insure that the following p r ogram be closely 16 a d h e r e d to: 17 BY M R . G A L L O : 18 Q. W i t h r e s p e c t to the f i r s t p a r a g r a p h / w h e r e it 19 says/ dust r e s p i r a t o r s must be used/ what were the 20 m e t h o d s by w h i c h that p o l i c y was e n f o r c e d ? 21 MR. SHEIN: Objection/ we don't know 22 if it was. 23 MR. C O H E N : If he k n o w s that there 24 uas such a policy. 25 THE W I T N E S S : The p o l i c y is here. K n ip e s -C o h e n A s s o c ia te s Castleman CERT000660 1 Leon H o ro w it z Di r e c t 64 2 BY MR. GALLO: 3 Q. Was there - 4 A. T h i s is the p o l i c y , w h e t h e r it was e n f o r c e d , I 5 -- the responsibility was the Plant Manager's. 6 Q. What were the m e t h o d s that they used to e nforce 7 thepolicy? 8 MR. SHEIN: O b j e c t i o n , he did not 9 say it was e n f o r c e d . 1 0 M R . C O H E N : A s s u m e s a fact not in 11 evidence. 12 BY MR. GALLO: 13 Q. To your knowledge, what were the methods 14 a v a i l a b l e to the P l a n t M a n a g e r s , to e n f o r c e the 15 policy? 16 A. To my k n o w l e d g e - 17 MR. SHEIN: Object, same question. 18 BY M R . G A L L O : 1 9 Q. 20 A. You may answer. To my knowledge, the method of e n forcement was 21 p o s t i n g t h i s on the b u l l e t i n board at e a c h p l a n t . 22 I g u e s s t h a t ' s the limit of my k n o w l e d g e in that 23 a r e a . 24 25 MR. CO'HEN: E x c u s e me, can I just h a v e a c l a r i f i c a t i o n , is - - are you s t a t i n g Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000661 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 65 2 that to your knowledge, such was posted, or 3 that was a method that might be a v ailable? 4 MR. GALLO: I -- I object to your 5 questioning him during the direct examination, 6 Mr. Cohen. Do you have an o b j e c t i o n ? 7 M R . COHEN: Well, I have a right to 8 h a v e a c l a r i f i c a t i o n to d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r it 9 w o u l d be a p p r o p r i a t e to lodge an o b j e c t i o n . 10 I don't understand the answer that was given. 11 I'm just asking him to clarify that. 12 M R . G A L L O : You can c l a r i f y it on 13 cross. 14 MR. COHEN: All right, then for now, 1 5 I'll take an obje c t i o n to the answer, and ask 1 6 t h a t it be s t r u c k , s i n c e I was not g i v e n the 17 o p p o r t u n i t y to a s s e s s w h e t h e r it was r e s p o n s i v e 18 to the question. 19 BY M R . G A L L O : 20 Q . Mr. Horowitz, for whom was this document drawn 21 up, or at w h o s e s u g g e s t i o n ? 22 A. As part of the Loss Control Program, I was asked 23 -- or I d e t e r m i n e d that t h i s t y p e of b u l l e t i n s h o u l d 24 be p r e s e n t e d to all P l a n t M a n a g e r s . 25 Q . I r e f e r you to i t e m 2. W o u l d you e x p l a i n to us Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000662 1 Leon Horowitz - D i r e c t 66 2 w h a t the r e f e r e n c e is t h e r e to r e s p i r a t o r s a p p r o v e d 3 by the B u r e a u of Mines? 4 A. Shall I read the paragraph or just - 5 q. T h a t ' s all' right, just e x p l a i n what the m e a n i n g 6 of that term is. 7 A. There are respirators and there are 8 respirators. There are respirators and there are 9 respi r a t o r s , and the -- the paragraph intended that 10 the p r o p e r r e s p i r a t o r be used for a s b e s t o s . And, 11 at that t i m e , the U.S. B u r e a u of M i n e s , was the 12 o n l y b o d y a p p r o v i n g or t e s t i n g r e s p i r a t o r s . 13 q . W o u l d you p l e a s e t u r n to H o r o w i t z 8? 14 W o u l d you t e l l us what it is and the date. 1 5 A. It is a m e m o to Mr . H . B. C h i l d s , the t i t l e 16 is Dust C o n t r o l , a n d the d a t e was D e c e m b e r 1st , 1960. 17 Q . \ Did you r e c e i v e a copy o f t h i s ? 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. Co u l d you tell us the c o n t e x t in which Mr . 20 Chi Ids was w r i t i n g thi s , did it have a n y t h i n g to do 21 w i t h the loss c o n t r o l -- 22 MR . SHEIN: O b j e c t e d to -- 23 MR . GALLO : Can I finish the 24 question? 25 MR. SHEIN: as hearsay, Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000663 1 Leon Horowitz Di rect 6 7 2 BY MR . GALLO : 3 Q. Can you tell us w h e t h e r or not this d o c u m e n t 4 was w r i 11 e n by Mr . C h i l d s in c o n n e c t i o n w i t h his work 5 in the Loss Control Commi ttee? 6 A. It was w r i t t e n by Mr. S c r a n t o n - 7 Q. Scranton, I'm sorry. 8 A. -- and it was sent to Mr. C h i l d s . 9 Q. Did it have a n y t h i n g to do w i t h the L o s s 10 Control Committee? 11 MR. LOCKS: Objection. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that Mr. 13 Scranton was on the Loss Control Committee. 14 I don't remember. 15 BY MR. GALLO: .. 16 Q . 17 A. What was his position with the company? I d o n ' t have t o t a l r e c a l l , I b e l i e v e it was 18 I n d u s t r i a l R e l a t i o n s . 19 MR. STRAIN: Excuse me, gentlemen, 20 this c o n c l u d e s tape nu m b e r one. We have to go 21 off the r e c o r d , and the time is 1 1 : 2 9 . 22 (Whereupon the following discussion 23 was off the videotape record.) 24 MR. BROMBERG : There have been quite a 25 number of o b j e c t i o n s stated, and I must confess Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000664 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 68 2 to my Lack of k n o w l e d g e of the d e t a i l of 3 P e n n s y l v a n i a p r o c e d u r e on the s u b j e c t . When we 4 get to trial, I assume that the fact that 5 t h e r e has been s i l e n c e in r e s p o n s e to t h o s e 6 o b j e c t i o n s , wo u l d not in any way bar 7 Defendants from arguing those issues before 8 the C o u r t . It is on that b a s i s that I am not 9 r e s p o n d i n g to the v a r i o u s o b j e c t i o n s , many of TO whi c h , seem to me, to be ranged from m e r i t o r i o u s 11 to utterly with o u t merit. So, I certainly 12 w o u l d have c o m m e n t s on t h e m , but I, for one, 13 am r e s e r v i n g all of them for the Court. I 14 a s s u m e that would be the normal p r o c e d u r e , I 1 5 do n ' t have to state them now? 16 MR. SHEIN: Counsel, I would agree 17 that these o b j e c t i o n s can c e r t a i n l y be argued 18 at the p r o p e r time. But, now that I've been 19 listening to this testimony for about an hour, 20 I m u s t c o n f e s s that I am at a t o t a l loss, e v e n 21 af t e r the offer of proof, to u n d e r s t a n d its 22 s i g n i f i c a n c e , and I o b j e c t to all of it. If 23 it's b e i n g o f f e r e d to s u p p o r t what is k n o w n as th 24 sophisticated Employer defense, why then, I 25 would remind Counsel that under Pennsylvania law. Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000665 1 Leon Horowitz Di rect 69 2 that's not delegable. 3 MR. GALLO: Well, Mr. Shein - 4 MR. SHEIN: Let me finish my 5 s t a t e m e n t , if it's b e i n g o f f e r e d to s h o w the 6 k n o w l e d g e of K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n , then I 7 w o u l d r e m i n d C o u n s e l that that is a s i s t e r 8 c o r p o r a t i o n with both being w h a l l y owned by 9 T u r n e r and New a l l . And that the k n o w l e d g e of 10 o ne, w o u l d in our o p i n i o n , be the k n o w l e d g e of 11 the other. 12 MR. GALLO: Any other statements, 13 arguments, questions, inquiries? 14 MR. BROMBERG: So, I assume from the 1 5 s i l e n c e of all C o u n s e l , I ass urn e in r e s p o n s e to 16 my comment, I assume that I do properly entertain 17 theprocedure? 18 MR. LOCKS: Mr. Bromberg, my silence 19 does not concede that. So, I'll affirm that I'm 20 not saying anything to what you've just said. 21 Any steps that you think are a p p r o p r i a t e to 22 p r o t e c t your c l i e n t . My s i l e n c e is not any 23 tacit agreement to anyt h i n g you say. 24 MR. CO'HEN: I d o n ' t want to p r e c l u d e 25 the fact that at some point we may argue that all Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000666 1 Leon Horowitz - Di rect 70 2 p o s i t i o n s should have been placed on the record 3 or w a i v e d , if not p l a c e d by w h i c h e v e r side. 4 With regard to E x h i b i t #8, I want to 5 know w h e t h e r it's -- we're on #8 now, am I 6 correct? 7 MR. GALLO: Yes. 8 MR. COHEN: Okay. I have two copies 9 of E x h i b i t 8, and to the e x tent that we're 1 0 r e a d i n g f r o m E x h i b i t 8, I'm g o i n g to o b j e c t 11 b e c a u s e p a g e two of one of my E x h i b i t 8's has 12 one paragraph that was apparently redacted. 13 M R . GALLO: You can have a copy of 1 4 m i n e , take a look at it. T h a t ' s the one that 1 5 will go into evidence. 16 MR. COHEN: Well, I just want to ask, 17 s i n c e I was g i v e n two c o p i e s of 8, one w i t h a 18 r e d a c t i o n on p a r a g r a p h one of page two, and 19 one without a redaction -- 20 MR. GALLO: Do you want an e x p l a n a t i o n 21 of that, Mr. Cohen: 22 M R . C O H E N : W e l l , I w o u l d like if I can 23 get an e x p l a n a t i o n , and be a s s u r e d that I 24 d i s c a r d , if it's" a p p r o p r i a t e , the one that is 25 r e d a c t e d , so we're w orking a c o m p l e t e d -- Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000667 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 71 2 MR. GALLO: The one that will be 3 i n t r o d u c e d in e v i d e n c e and will be a t t a c h e d 4 to the d e p o s i t i o n is c o m p l e t e E x h i b i t H o r o w i t z 5 8. T h e n o n - r e d a c t e d one will not be u s e d . 6 That was a redaction that was implemented during 7 a recent trial. 8 MR. COHEN: Can I just ask the trial 9 and matter? 1 0 MR. GALLO: Hardemon and Barlieb. 11 Okay,, can we p r o c e e d , p l e a s e ? 1 2 MR. P A U L : I'm not sure if I 13 understand. Are you saying - 14 M R , G A L L O : T h e n o n - r e d a c t e d one is 1 5 being introduced now. You'll have a chance 1 6 to argue for further redactions later. 17 (Whereupon a break was taken from 18 11:30 a.m. to 11:40 a.m.) 19 MR. STRAIN: We're now back on the 20 r e c o r d , and the time is 11:42. 21 MR. GALLO: The b e g i n n i n g of vide o - 22 tapenumbertwo? 23 MR . STRAIN: Yes. 24 BY MR G A L L O : 25 9 . Mr H o r o w i t z , w o u l d you please turn to the Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000668 1 Leon Horowitz Direct 72 2 d o c u m e n t t h a t ' s b e e n m a r k e d H o r o w i t z 9. Do you have 3 that before you, sir? 4 A. Y e s / I do 5 Q. Would you read its title and its date, please? 6 A. T h e t i t l e is Dust C o n t r o l R e p o r t / and the d a t e 7 is D e c e m b e r 6th/ 1 9 6 0. 8 Q. Would you turn to the last page, and tell u s 9 whose name appears there? 1 0 A. Dr. A l m a n d C. S t a b l e r / M.D.. 11 Q. Did he w r ite this doc ument ? 12 MR. COHEN: Objection. 13 M R. SHEI N : I o b j e c t to that. He 14 w o u l d n ' t know that, and I object to the 1 5 d o c u m e n t as it c o n t a i n s m u l t i p l e h e a r s a y . 16 BY MR . GALLO : 17 Q . For whom was this document written? 18 MR. COHEN: Objection. 19 BY MR . GALLO : 20 Q. Mr.Horowitz-- 21 MR. COHEN: I'm sorry, so my 22 o b j e c t i o n -- it c a l l s for h e a r s a y , it c a l l s for 23 information which has not been established 24 w h i c h is p e r s o n a l l y k n o w n to the w i t n e s s . It 25 calls for conclusion/ therefore. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000669 1 Leon Horow itz - Direct 73 2 BY MR. GALLO: 3 Q. Hr. H o r o w i t z , is t h i s a d o c u m e n t that was in 4 your file during the years that you were with Keasbey 5 and Mattison? 6 A. Y e s , it wa s . 7 Q. A n d did i t c o n t i n u e in your file d u r i n g the 8 years you went w i th C e r t a inteed? 9 A. Y e s , it w a s . 10 Q. And, did it continue in your possession 11 u n t i l t o d a y ? 12 A-. Y e s , it i s 13 Q . Could you tell us what the c i r c u m s t a n c e s 14 w e r e for the writ i ng of this d o c u m e n t ? 15 MR. COHEN: I'm going to note 16 o bjection. The subsequent quest i o n s to the 17 witness after my earlier objection did absolutely 18 nothing to qualify your -- or contain the 1 9 o b j e c t i o n a b l e nature of the question initially. 20 BY M R . G A L L O : 21 Q. You can answer, sir. 22 A. It was a r e p o r t i n g by a c o n s u l t a n t m e d i c a l 23 p e r s o n , c o n s u l t a n t to K e a s b e y a n d M a t t i s o n , a r e p o r t i n g 24 of the e x i s t e n c e of a r e l a t i o n s h i p of the d i s e a s e , of 25 the e x p o s u r e to a s b e s t o s . Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000670 1 Leon Horowitz - Direct 73 2 Q. Was t his a d o c u m e n t that you r e c e i v e d in the 3 c o u r s e of y o u r d u t i e s as an i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t for 4 the company? 5 A. Ye s . 6 Q. And, was it w r i t t e n in the u s u a l c o u r s e of 7 business? 8 MR. COHEN: Objection. The witness 9 can have no p o s s i b l e k n o w l e d g e as to w h e t h e r 1 0 Dr. S t a b l e r ' s a u t h o r s h i p of the letter, even 11 a s s u m i n g , in f a c t , he did, was in the o r d i n a r y 12 and ro u t i n e course of the d o c t o r ' s business. 13 BY M R . G A L L O : 14 0. Y o u c a n answer. 1 5 MR. SHEIN: More over, the document 16 is u n s i g n e d . 17 BY MR. G A L L O : 18 Q. You may answer, sir. 19 A. Yes, he was r e p o rting to the Loss Control 20 C o m m i t t e e . 21 Q. T h e L o s s C o n t r o l C o m m i t t e e is the b o d y that 22 y o u d e s c r i b e d e a r l i e r ? 23 A . Y e s . 24 Q. And you were on 'that C o m m i t t e e , am I correc t ? 25 A . Yes. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000671 73 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Di r e c t 2 a. A n d , was it in y o u r c a p a c i t y as a m e m b e r of 3 that C o m m i t t e e , that you r e c e i v e d a copy of this 4 document? 5 A. Yes. 6 q. W o u l d you ple a s e read to us the first two 7 paragraphs? 8 A. It is d i f f i c u l t to r e a c h any d e f i n i t e 9 c o n c l u s i o n on the subject of o c c u p a t i o n a l chest d i s e a s e s 1 0 in a s b e s t o s i n d u s t r i e s . A s b e s t o s is of the lung is a 11 c o n s t a n t f e a r of all e m p l o y e e s , and a p r o b l e m to 12 m a n a g e m e n t . T h e r e is c o m p a r a t i v e l y v e r y l i t t l e k n o w n 13 of t h e d i s e a s e , e s p e c i a l l y in its b e g i n n i n g and e a r l y 14 s t a g e s . H o w to c o n t r o l its c a u s e is s t i l l t h e o r e t i c a l . 1 5 T h e r e has rot b e e n e n o u g h r e s e a r c h and s t u d y of 16 a s b e s t o s i s to p r o t e c t the i n d u s t r y . 17 Q. . S i r , w o u l d you p l e a s e t u r n to the s e c o n d p a g e , 18 and read to us the s e c t i o n e n t i t l e d B, P r o g r a m s we 19 n o w h a v e . 20 MR. BROMBERG: . Can you identify a 21 date, p e r h a p s he did, Mr. Gallo, I may 22 have-- 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, the date was 24 D e c e m b e r 6th, 19'60. 25 MR. BROMBERG: Thank you. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000672 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - Di rect 74 2 MR. COHEN: Can we just have a 3 notation of my continuing o b j e c t i o n to having 4 the w i t n e s s reading s e l e c t e d p o r t i o n s of 5 exhibits. 6 MR. GALLO: I will give all 7 Plaintiffs' counsel a continuing objection 8 to the r e a d i n g of any p o r t i o n s of the 9 d o c u m e n t s , if that will serve to speed 1 0 things up. 11 M R . C O H E N : It will. 12 MR. BRUCH: Mr. Gallo, I also have 13 a minor objection. You used the word company 14 when y o u ' r e r e f e r r i n g to the d o c u m e n t by Dr. 1 5 Stabler. And I represent Certai nteed, and 16 I don't know that Dr. Stabler was ever employed 17 by C e r t a i n t e e d , When you use the word, company, 18 I wish y o u w o u l d q u a l i f y K e a s b e y - M a t t i son, if 19 y o u ' r e going to refer to this d o c u m e n t . 20 MR . GALLO : All right. 21 BY MR . G A L L O : 22 0. W o u l d you read to us S e c t i o n B, b e g i n n i n g on 23 p a g e two, p l e a s e , Mr. H o r o w i t z ? 24 A. In a p r o g r a m we now have, column one, p r e 25 e m p l o y m e n t e x a m i n a t i o n and c h e s t x - r a y , i n c l u d i n g a " _ ' Castleman.CERT000673 Knipes-Cohen Associates 1 Leon H o r o w it z Di r e c t 75 2 d e t a i l e d h i s t o r y of past dust exposure and lung 3 c o n d i t i o n s . Tw o , m e d i c a l i n s p e c t i o n upon r e t u r n to 4 work, of all e m p l o y e e s - t h a t have been out of work over 5 three days because of illness. Three, yearly x-ray 6 p i c t u r e s of all e m p l o y e e s on a v o l u n t a r y basis. 7 Shall I read the subs? 8 Q. Please. 9 A. Sub u n d e r 3, a, we are f o r t u n a t e in h a v i n g a 1 0 well q u a l i f i e d d o c t o r to read the x - r a y s . He is a 11 c h e s t s p e c i a l i s t e x p e r i e n c e d in the r e a d i n g of x - r a y s , 12 a n d a l s o as an e x p e r t w i t n e s s at m a n y C o u r t h e a r i n g s . 13 B, any x - r a y p i c t u r e t h a t is s u s p i c i o u s is r e - x - r a y e d 14 w i t h a r e g u l a r large x - r a y p l a t e . C, p e r s o n s w h o s e 15 x - r a y s are n o r m a l are so i n f o r m e d . D, p e r s o n s w h o s e 16 r e s u l t s are q u e s t i o n a b l e have t h e i r r e p o r t s m a i l e d 17 to the f a m i l y d o c t o r of the e m p l o y e e , and the i n d i v i d u a l 18 is n o t i f i e d of the a c t i o n t a k e n . T h i 's r e p o r t c o n t a i n s 19 t h e f i n d i n g s of the x - r a y , but no d i a g n o s i s . E, all 20 cases that n e e d a d j u s t m e n t of their jobs are r e m o v e d 21 f r o m any d u s t a r e a s . 22 Q. I think item four is also part of s u b - d i v i s i o n 23 B. 24 A. Item four, dust exhaust fans and respirators 25 are u s e d in c e r t a i n a r e a s of the p l a n t . Knipes-Cohen Associ.ates Castleman.CERT000674 1 Leon Horowi t z Di re c t 76 2 Q. Would you - 3 MR. BROMBERG: I'm sorry, Mr. 4 Gallo, for the record I would like to indicate 5 I do want to reserve for the time of trial, the 6 right to move to strike those p o r t i o n s of the 7 w i t n e s s ' t e s t i m o n y , w h e r e he is r e a d i n g from 8 an e x h i b i t . I don't know w h e t h e r I will or 9 not -- w i l l not. So, I want to r e s e r v e it 10 b e c a u s e it may be that I w i s h to o f f e r the 11 entire exhibit, itself, and would not want 12 to have c u m u l a t i v e t e stimony. 13 MR. G A L L O : I w o u l d s t a t e at this 14 time that I c e r t a i n l y intend to offer all 1 5 of t h e s e e x h i b i t s in their e n t i r e t y . And 16 I'm not waiving that right, by having the 17 w i t n e s s read parts of them. 18 MR. SHEIN: Well, then I renew my 1 9 previous objection about the reading. 20 MR. GALLO: I understand. 21 BY MR . G A L L O : 22 Q. Would you please read the first item under 23 n u m b e r C, P r o g r a m we n e e d ? 24 A. E x t e n s i v e dust count c o n t r o l , it is an a c c e p t e d 25 fact that o v e r a s p a c e of y e a r s , the lower the dust Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000675 1 Leon Horowitz Di rect 77 2 count the fewer n u m b e r of a s b e s t o s cases 3 Q. Is that a s b e s t o s is cases? 4A I'm sorry/ asbestosis cases 5 Do you want me to read 2? 6Q I think there are more under 1 7A S i n c e this is a p r o v e n p r a c t i c a l a p p l i c a t i o n , 8 we m u s t use it to its best a d v a n t a g e 9Q W o u l d you p l e a s e read item 7? 1O A G a i n i n g the c o n f i d e n c e of e m p l o y e e s , a, since 11 it is o b v i o u s t h a t e a c h year m o r e c a s e s of a l l e g e d 12 a s b e s t o s i s are a r i s i n g and g o i n g to C o u r t , we c a n n o t 13 i g n o r e it. We s h o u l d t a k e the i n i t i a t i v e in dust 14 c o n t r o l , preventive m e d i c i n e and e d u c a t i o n of 1 5 the e m p l o y e e to the e f f e c t that m a n a g e m e n t is 16 i n t e r e s t e d in t h e i r w e l f a r e and p r o t e c t i o n . 17 Q. Would you turn now to Horowitz 13, 18 p l e a s e ? 19 A . Yes. 20 Q. And, wo u l d you tell us - - give us the title 21 and d a t e of t h a t d o c u m e n t , and tell us what it is, 22 p l e a s e ? 23 A. Asbestos Textile Institute Meeting, Air 24 H y g i e n e and M a n u f a c t u r i n g C o m m i t t e e , Jun e 8th and 9th, 25 1 9 6 1 , the m e m o was w r i t t e n J u n e 1 2 t h , 1961. Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000676 1 Leon Horowitz - Dire ct 2 Q. By w h o m was it w r i t t e n ? 3 A. It was w r i t t e n by me to Mr . A. W. S p e d d i n g . 4 Q. All right. 5 A. With a copy to Mr. Childs. 6 Q. A n d , c o u l d you tell us how it is that you 7 prepared this summary 9 8 A. I r e p r e s e n t e d the c o m p a n y at the A s b e s t o s 9 T e x t i l e Institute Meeting, and my duty, primary- 10 du ty, was to i n f o r m my i m m e d i a t e s u p e r v i s o r of the 11 c o n t e n t s of that m e e t i n g r e l a t i n g to the s u b j e c t , 12 or the area of -- of -- that I c o v e r e d for the 13 p l a n t . 14 Q . Was this part of your usual p r a c t i c e , to 15 report to the company on m e etings you a t t e n d e d ? 1 6 MR. BRUCH: I have the same 17 o b j e c t i o n to the use of the word, c o m p a n y , 18 in both the question and the witness used 19 it. T h e d o c u m e n t is d a t e d 6 / 1 2 / 6 1 and it 20 says Keasbey Mattison - 21 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, 22 I can't understand what you said. 23 MR. BRUCH: Says Keasbey Mattison, 24 I would like that to be known as the 25 c o m p a n y y o u ' r e r e f e r r i n g to in r e s pect to Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000677 1 Leon Horowi t z Di r e c t 79 2 the ATI. 3 MR. GALLO: Let me r e p h r a s e it, 4 Mr. Bruch. 5 BY MR. GALLO: 6 Q. In repor t i n g to the people you reported to 7 in w r i t i n g this m e m o r a n d u m , were you f o l l o w i n g the 8 u s u a l p r o c e d u r e that you have . in your y e a r s with 9 K e a s b e y and Matt i son, of p r e p a r i n g m e m o r a n d a for 10 meeti ngs you a t t e n d e d ? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q . Did that practice continue after you went 13 w i t h C e r t a i n t e e d ? 14 A. Yes. 1 5 Q. A f t e r C e r t a i n t e e d t o o k ove r? 16 A. Yes . 17 MR. BRUCH: I object to that, and 18 move to strike the answer. 19 BY MR. G A L L O : 20 Q . Who else was present for Keasbey and Mattison 21 at t h i s m e e t i n g ? 22 A. John M c G i n l e y was pr e s e n t and Dr. S t a b l e r , 23 yes. 24 Q. Do you r e c a l l why it was that Dr. S t a b l e r was 25 p r e s e n t ? Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000678 1 2 A Leon H o row itz Di r e c t 80 * s u g g e s t e d that he c o m e to the m e e t i n g b e c a u s e 3 I k n e w t h a t Dr. K e n n e t h S m i t h of J o h n s - M a n v i l l e w o u l d be 4 talking. 5 Q What s u b j e c t was he g o i n g to d i s c u s s ? 6 A. T he s u b j e c t of h ealth a s p e c t s r e l a t e d to 7 asbestos. 8 <J. Any particular health aspects? 9 A* In p a r t i c u l a r ^ r e l a t i o n s h i p to cancer. 10 9 A n d , Dr. S t a b l e r did, in fact, a t t e n d this 11 m e e t i n g ? 12 A. V e s , he did. 13 9 * W o u l d you p l e a s e look at the f i r s t p a r a g r a p h 14 u n d e r d i s c u s s i o n . T h e r e is a s e n t e n c e t h e r e , I b e l i e v e 15 it's the second sentence, each member subm i t t e d its 16 dust c o u n t i n g t e c h n i q u e and e x i s t i n g m e d i c a l p r o g r a m . 17 Do you see t h a t s e n t e n c e ? 18 A. Yes. 19 9 Did K e a s b e y and Matti son, in fact, s ubmit its 20 t e c h n i q u e s ? 21 A . Yes . 22 9 > Were they c o m p a r a b l e to those s u b m i t t e d by the 23 o t h e r c o m p a n i es? 24 MR. SHEIN: Objection. 25 MR. COHEN: Objection. Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000679 1 Leon Horowitz - Di rect 81 2 BY MR . GALLO : 3 Q You may answer. 4 A- Yes, as d e s c r i b e d p r e v i o u s l y -- as I d e s c r i b e d 5 previously, yes. 6 <3. All right. 7 Would you please turn to the document 8 m a r k e d H o r o w i t z 15 - 9 MR. COHEN: Excuse me, can I just 1 0 a s k , I n o t i c e Mr. H o r o w i t z is r e a d i n g from 11 a different form of the document than I have. 12 Can I a s s u m e that when the d e p o s i t i o n r e c o r d is 13 p r e p a r e d , that the -- -- it looks like a typwri tten 14 c a r b o n of the d o c u m e n t will be i n c l u d e d as 1 5 the Exhibit? 16 MR. GALLO: No, off the record, 17 off the videotape. 18 MR. STRAIN: We're going off the 19 r e c o r d is now, and the time is 11:54. 20 (Whereupon the following discussion 21 was off the videotape record.) 22 M R . C O H E N : S i n c e Mr. H o r o w i t z is 23 a p p a r e n t l y r e a d i n g f r o m a -- what a p p e a r s to be 24 a copy of a t y p e w r i t t e n document, that was made 25 simultaneously with the original, and I have ~ castiemah:CERT000680 Knipes-Cohen Associates 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - D i r e c t 82 2 what a p p e a r s to be a xerox copy that has been 3 r e p r e s e n t e d by counsel as being an exact 4 d u p l i c a t e of what he is r e a d i n g , my q u e s t i o n 5 is, first, will the document that Mr. Horowitz 6 is r e a d i n g from be a p p e n d e d to the o r i g i n a l 7 copy of the deposition. And I've been advised 8 by c o u n s e l that it will not be. And if that 9 is the ca s e , t hen I w a n t t o o b j e c t to the 1 0 i n t r o d u c t i o n of any of these d o c u m e n t s and 11 records, based on the best evidence rule, 12 and ba s e d upon the fact that he has those 13 d o c u m e n t s . If they are not m a d e a v a i l a b l e at 14 the time of trial, we're p recluded, I think, 1 5 from m e a n i n g f u l e x a m i n a t i o n as to the d o c u m e n t s . 16 MR. GALLO: Okay, my only response 17 to that is that y ou'll be p r o v i d e d with true 18 and c orrect copies of the d o c u m e n t s that Mr. 19 H o r o w i t z is r e f e r r i n g to, at the t i m e you 20 receive copy of the deposition. 21 MR. COHEN: Okay, we'll I just want 22 to have an o b j e c t i o n , I'll do so at the time of 23 trial to anything other than the document that 24 the w i t n e s s is r e a d i n g from. 25 MR. SHEIN: Well, I'm going to ask, in Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000681 1 Leon H o ro w it z - D i r e c t 2 view of this, that each d o c u m e n t he has be r e 3 f e r r e d to be m a r k e d as an e x h i b i t and you may 4 use the exhibit numbers from the previous 5 d e p o s i t i o n , and a p p e n d it to t h i s d e p o s i t i o n . 6 MR. GALLO: T h a t ' s what we i n t e n d to 7 do. 8 MR. BROMBERG: I would suggest that 9 if a n y o n e has any q u e s t i o n as to w h e t h e r the 1 0 p h o t o c o p y is the same as the i t e m s , that Mr* 11 H o r o w i t z has p r o d u c e d here and is r e f e r r i n g to, 12 that C o u n s e l look at t h e m to see if t h e r e is any 13 variation. 14 THE WITNESS: They're available, and 1 5 that's-- 16 MR. B R O M B E R G : If there is, we can 17 clarify the problems. They're Mr. Horowitz' 18 d o c u m e n t s . T h e r e is o b v i o u s l y some 19 r e t i c e n c e on his part to give up his o r i g i n a l s . 20 We can c o n v e n i e n c e him by making p h o t o c o p i e s of 21 the o r i g i n a l s which he may need for other 22 p u r p o s e s . Since we're off the r e c ord, he may 23 need them for t e s t i m o n y in other cases, and 24 put p h o t o c o p i e s in here. 25 MR. G A L L O : I t h i n k t h e r e wi ll be . _ : | Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000682 1 Leon Horowitz Direct 84 2 a d e q u a t e time for counsel to e x a m i n e them. 3 Can we go back on the tape? 4 MR. STRAIN: We are now back on the 5 r e c o r d , and the t i m e is 1 2:57. 6 MR . G A L L O : 11:57. 7 BY MR . GALLO : 8 Q. Mr . H o r o w i t z , we're now on the d o c u m e n t that's 9 b een m a r k e d H o r o w i t z #15. Do you have that b e f o r e you? 10 A . Yes, I do. 11 Q. 12 A. Was this a doc ument written by you? Yes, it was. 13 Q. It was w r i t t e n in the c o urse of your d u t i e s as 14 a m e m b e r of the Loss. C o n t r o l C o m m i t t e e ? 1 5 A. Yes. 16 Q . And, w o u l d y o u give us the s u b j e c t of i t, and 17 the d a t e ? 18 A The s u b j e c t is a n a l y s i s of e n v i o r n m e n t a l 19 c o n d i t i o n s in A m b l e r P l a n t s from the I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n e 20 petrrt of v i e w , r e f e r r i n g to r e c e n t x - r a y s , and the 21 d a t e was O c t o b e r 9th, 1961. 22 9 Would you read for us, please, the first 23 s e n t e n c e ? 24 A. X-rays were made of six hundred and fifty-three 25 K e a s b e y a n d M a t t i s o n e m p l o y e e s in May of 1961. Of Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.ctKiuuuoo3 1 Leon H o r o w it z Di r e c t 85 2 the s e , f i f t e e n have been r e p o r t e d as " p o s s i b l e 3 p u l m o n a r y d i s e a s e or d a m a g e " c a s e s by Dr. J. J. 4 K i r s c h n e r , S p e c i a l i s t in P u l m o n a r y Di s e a s e s . 5 Allright. 6 Would you please turn to the 7 second page, section entitled Recommendations, and 8 read for us everything before the first numbered 9 paragraph. 1 0 A* R e c o m m e n d a t i o n s , a " c o m p a n y p o l i c y " m u s t be 11 e s t a b l i s h e d w i t h r e s p e c t to o c c u p a t i o n d i s e a s e , such 12 as, n e w p a r a g r a p h , to c o r r e c t , "to c o r r e c t -- I'm 3 sorry, to correct sub-standard working conditions 14 and protect the health and safety of the employee. 15 To comply with local, State, and Federal regulations 16 in c o n f o r m a n c e w i t h g o o d i n d u s t r i a l p r a c t i c e s with 17 r e s p e c t to h e a l t h and s a f e t y . T h i s p o l i c y s h o u l d be 18 d i r e c t e d to by the L o s s C o n t r o l C o m m i t t e and i m p l e 19 m e n t e d as follows. , 20 And then there are four numbered paragraphs. 21 W o u l d you just read us the t i t l e of t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s , 22 p l e a s e ? 23 A R i g h t , one is e d u c a t i o n a l p r o g r a m . Two is 24 x - r a y p r o g r a m . T h r e e is r e s p i r a t o r p r o g r a m . And, 25 four is e n g i n e e r i n g . ~K~ ni|pes-Cohen Associ' ates Castleman.CERT000684 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - D i r e c t 2 Q. And this d o c u m e n t , a p p a r e n t l y , was c o p i e d to 3 Dr . S t a b l e r and Mr. D. W. K e a c h ? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Who is Mr . K e a c h ? 6 MR. LOCKS: O bject to the form of 7 the question. 8 BY MR. GALLO: 9 Q. 10 A. 11 Q. 12 A. 13 0. 14 A. Who was Mr. Keach? Industrial Relations, I think. W o u l d you please turn now to H o r o w i t z 17. N u m b e r 17 i sn't h e r e , but is that it? Yes, Meeting of Loss Control Committee. Right. 1 5 Q. W o u l d you read the title and date of that d o c u m e n 16 to us, p l e a s e ? 17 A T h e t i t l e is M e e t i n g of Loss C o n t r o l C o m m i t t e e , 18 the d a t e is J a n u a r y 8th, 1962. M e e t i n g t i t l e a l s o 19 s a y s M e e t i n g n u m b e r four. 20 Q. Allright. 21 All the p e o p l e l i s t e d at the t o p , w e r e 22 t h e y m e m b e r s of the Loss C o n t r o l C o m m i t t e e ? 23 A . Yes. And could you tell who this document was authored by? Who wrote it? Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000685 1 Leon Horowitz Direct 87 2 A. I t h i n k the i nit ials in the end are Mr 3 Childs'. 4 5 3Y MR. GALLO: MR. COHEN: Objection. 6 W h a t are the i nit i a l s , sir? 7 I t ' s h a r d to read his h a n d w r i t i n g , but t h e r e is 8 1e f i n i t e l y an H , and it looks like a B m i d d l e i n i t i a l , 9 ind I a s s u m e the last i n i t i a l is a C. 1 0 MR. COHEN: I'm g o i n g to o b j e c t to 11 the s p e c u l a t i o n as to the a u t h o r s h i p of the 12 document . 13 Y MR . GALLO : 14 W o u l d you -- was this d o c u m e n t in your p e r s o n a l 15 i le ? 16 . Y e s , it was, 17 . From J a n u a r y -- from the t i m e it was w r i t t e n 18 ntil the present? 19 . Yes. 20 . And, did you r e c e i v e this in your c a p a c i t y as 21 member of the Loss Control Committee for Keasbey and 22 atti son? 23 Yes, I did. 24 . 25 s? W o u l d you p l e a s e read the title of item four to Knipes-Cohen Associates Xastlemail.CERT000686 1 Leon Horowitz - Direct 88 2 A. T h e t i t l e is C o m p a n y P o l i c y on 0D. 3 Q. What is OD? 4 A. 0D is o c c u p a t i o n a l d i s e a s e . 5 Q. Does that include asbestos is? 6 A. It i n c l u d e s a s b e s t o s is. 7 Q. W o u l d you ple a s e read to us the last p a r a g r a p h 8 on the page? 9 A* The co m p a n y will make every effort to improve 10 the safety and working conditions of our plants and 11 o f f i c e s . N e c e s s a r y t o o l s , e q u i p m e n t a nd s a f e g u a r d s 12 p r o v i d e d i n s o f a r as p o s s i b l e to p r o tect our e m p l o y e e s 13 a g a i n s t i l l n e s s or a c c i d e n t s . It is the r e s p o n s i b i l i t y 14 of s u p e r v i s o r s to p r o m o t e the s a f e t y p r o g r a m s , and 15 to i n s t i l l the s a f e t y c o n c e p t in e a c h of t h e i r 16 e m p l o y e e s . S a f e t y p r o g r a m can be e f f e c t i v e o n l y if 17 all e m p l o y e e s a c c e p t the p r i n c i p l e s of s a f e t y and 18 p r a c t i c e s a f e t y all t i m e s , on and off the job. For 19 the good of all c o n c e r n e d , u n s a f e acts and conditions 20 cannot be tolerated. 21 Q* Would you now turn to Horowitz 20? 22 A Use of dust respir a t o r s . 23 Q * Let me ask you to read the title and date of 24 that d o c u m e n t to us. 25 A. T h e t i t l e is use of dust r e s p i r a t o r s . Its da t e Knip es-Cohen Associates Castieman.CERT000687 1 Leon Horowitz Direct 89 2 is April 5th, 1962. 3 Q W h o w r o t e it and who is it w r i t t e n to? 4 A I w r o t e it, and it was w r i t t e n to Mr. J. S. 5 Simmons, Safety Director. 6 Q. ALL right. 7 Was t his w r i t t e n by you in the usual 8 c o u r s e of your d u t i e s as an i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t for 9 Keasbey and Mattison? 10 A . 11 9 Y e s , it was. Did you c o n t i n u e to keep this in yo u r file, 12 after you went with C e r t a i n t e e d ? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q- I would like you to read for us, p l e a s e , the 15 fourth paragraph on the first page. 1 6 A. T h e r e are s e v e r a l areas in K&M p l a n t s , which 17 r e q u i r e t h e use of dust r e s p i r a t o r s . T h e f o l l o w i n g 18 list of o p e r a t i o n s w h i c h s h o u l d be p e r f o r m e d w i t h the 1 9 use of dust r e s p i r a t o r s is made up of two s e c t i o n s 20 d e p e n d i n g on the degree of dust exposure. 21 Q . All right. 2 2 Now, does there then follow a section 23 A and a S e c t i o n B? 24 A . Yes . 25 Q . All right Kni^p es-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000688 1 2 3 S e c t i o n A? Leon Horowitz Direct 90 In S e c t i o n A, what is the t i t l e of 4 A. O p e r a t i o n s which must be p e r f o r m e d with a dust 5 respirator. 6 Q And is that s e c t i o n then d i v i d e d into p l a n t s ? 7 A. A separate paragraph under each plant 8 referred to. 9 0. Allright. 1 0 And there are two locations under 11 p l a n t o n e , w h i c h are l i s t e d u n d e r s u b d i v i s i o n A; 12 is t hat r i g h t ? 13 A . Yes. 14 Q. An d e l e v e n l o c a t i o n s in p l a n t four - - 15 A . Yes. 16 Q. -- which are listed under plant A? 17 A . Yes. 18 Q. Or S e c t i o n A? 19 A . Yes. 20 Q. And, t h e r e ' s another section d e v o t e d to plant 21 6, 7, 8 a n d 9, a n d I b e l i e v e that s e c t i o n says pipe 22 plants.. W e r e t h o s e all the K e a s b e y M a t t i s o n p i p e 23 p l a n t s ? 24 A. In e x i s t e n c e at that time, yes. 25 Q- Could you give us their location, pl e a s e ? Kni^pes---Coh'en A ssociates Castleman.ctKiuuubsy 1 2 A. L e o n H o r o w i t z - Di rect 91 Number 6 was Santa Clara. Number 8 was Ambler. 3 I'm not sure of 7 a n d 9. I d o n ' t r e c a l l . 4 Q* w e U / if you don't recall which was which, 5 what were the other two locations of the pipe pl a n t s ? 6 A* T h e r e was St. L o u i s . I t h i n k that was 9. 7 And what did I say, Ambler, St. Louis, and Santa 8 C l a r a , and the o t h e r p i p e p l a n t , it m i g h t h a v e been 9 Riverside -- no. Riverside was not built yet. And 10 it w a s n ' t H i l l s b o r o . If you c o u l d r e c a l l the f o u r t h 11 one? 12 Q. W o u l d it have been New O r l e a n s ? 13 A. No, it was not New O r l e a n s . 14 Q Well, we'll skip that. 1 5 - Are t h e r e , t h e n , five l o c a t i o n s in 16 each of the p i p e p l a n t s , w h i c h are l i s t e d u n d e r 17 O p e r a t i o n s , w h i c h m u s t be p e r f o r m e d w i t h a dust 18 r e s p i r a t o r ? 1 9 MR. MASON: I object to the form of 20 that question, because although there are five 21 n u m b e r s , some of the nu m b e r s refer to di f f e r e n t 22 locations. 23 BY MR . G A L L O : 24 Are there five enumerated positions, where 25 a c c o r d i n g to s e c t i o n A, r e s p i r a t o r s -- Knipes-Cohen Associates Gastieman.ctKiuuubyu 1 Leon H o ro w it z Di r e c t 92 2 A. Types of op e r a t i o n s , yes. 3 . MR . M A S O N : Well - 4 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, 5 what kind of o p erations? 6 THE WITNESS: Types of o p erations. 7 MR. MASON: I o b j e c t t o the form of 8 the question, because you take number one, one 9 location or position i s unloading another 10 l o c a t i o n is s t o r a g e , anot h e r l o c a t i o n or 11 p o s i t i o n is t r a n s f e r . It's not just five 12 positions. 13 MR. GALLO: Skip the question. I'll 14 withdraw the question. 15 BY M R . G A L L O : 16 Q * Would you please turn to major sub-se c t i o n B 17 on p a g e t h r e e . Read t ha t to us, p l e a s e ? 18 A* Operations which should have just respirators 19 a v a i l a b l e for use at the d i s c r e t i o n of P l a n t M a n a g e r 20 a n d / o r o p e r a t o r . 21 Q And under that sub-section, are there job 22 d e s c r i p t i o n s or l o c a t i o n s l i s t e d for p l a n t o n e , p l a n t 23 four a n d the p i p e p l a n t s ? 24 A . Yes. 25 MR. SHEIN: I'm going to obj e c t to K nipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.ctKiuuubyi 1 Leon H o row itz Di r e c t 93 2 that. I don't know that that a p p l i e s to my 3 client,.the deceased Melvin Timbers. 4 MR. GALLO: Well - 5 MR. BRUCH: I just object for the 6 p u r p o s e of the d o c u m e n t as to Certai n t e e d 7 never purchasing plant number one, number 8 four -- 9 T HE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me, I 1 0 can't hear you. 11 MR. BRUCH: O b j e c t i n g as to C e r t a i n t e e d 1 2 never purchasing plant number one, four and 13 ten. 14 MR. LOCKS: I object 15 BY MR . GALLO: 16 Q . Mr. Horowitz, referring back to subdi vision 17 are there locations listed for plant number one? 18 A. There are locations listed for plant number 19 one. 20 Q. And, are there other locations listed for 21 p l a n t n u m b e r f o u r ? 22 A . Yes, there are. 23 Q. A n d , are t h e r e o t h e r l o c a t i o n s li s t e d for 24 p l a n t n u m b e r e i g h t ? " 25 A. Yes, there are. Knip es-Cohen A ssociate"s Castleman.CERT000692 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - D i r e c t 94 2 Q* What ' s the d i s t i n c t i o n -- or what was the 3 d i s t i n c t i o n at the t i m e this d o c u m e n t was w r i t t e n 4 by y ou, b e t w e e n the o p e r a t i o n s Listed u n d e r n u m b e r A 5 r ,letter A , and the operations Listed under g ? 6 A* When you say Letter A, you mean Large, 7 c a p i t a l A? 8 Q. Yes. 9 U n d e r capita L A, my f e e l i n g at the t ime was 1 0 that th o s e o p e r a t i o n s must be p e r f o r m e d and must was 11 u n d e r l i n e d . A n d u n d e r B, it was an o p t i o n a l f e a t u r e 12 for m a n a g e m e n t a n d / o r the o p e r a t o r , to make a d e c i s i o n 13 w h e t h e r to w e a r a r e s p i r a t o r . In o t h e r w o r d s , it 14 w a s n ' t as i m p o r t a n t as u n d e r A, in my o p i n i o n . 15 * Was Mr. Simmons the Safety Director company 16 wide for Keasbey and Mattison? 17 A. I don't have recall on that. 18 Q* H e was an o f f i c i a l of Ke a s b e y M a t t i s o n , 19 t h o u g h ? 20 A. Apparently. 21 Q. W o u l d you p l e a s e turn to -- p l e a s e turn to 22 H o r o w i t z 21, p l e a s e . Wo u l d you read us the title 23 and d a t e of it? 24 A- I'm just comparing. You prefer that I read from 25 t h i s , r i g h t , f r o m my own c o p y ? Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000693 1 Leon Horowitz - Direct 95 2 Q From your actual copy, right. 3 A Right, the subject was Asbestos Textile 4 Institute Meeting, Air Hygiene and Manufacturing 5 Committee, September 13 and 14, 1962, and the date 6 it was w r i t t e n was S e p t e m b e r 2 5 t h , 1962. 7 Q W o u l d you tell us what your i n v o l v e m e n t was 8 with that meeting? 9 A. I was a m e mber of the Air H y g i e n e -- Air 1 0 Hygiene and Manufacturing Committee. And this was 11 my -- o n e of the m e e t i n g s that I u s u a l l y a t t e n d e d . 12 Q * When did you become a memb e r of the Air Hygiene 13 and M a n u f a c t u r i n g C o m m i t t e e ? 14 A W i t h i n two or three mon t h s of my being hired 15 y Keasbey and Mattison. 16 And that was a Committee of the ATI, the 17 s b e s t o s T e x t i l e I n s t i t u t e ; is t h a t r i g h t ? 18 . Y e s , it was. 19 . And, when you a t t e n d e d this me e t i n g on 20 ptember 25th, 1962, were you attending for Keasbey 21 id M a t t i s o n or for C e r t a i n t e e d ? 22 A. For Keasbey and Mattison. 23 Q. 24 A . W e l t , w o u l d you look at y o u r I'm sorry -- 25 Q . - - n a m e there. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000694 1 2 A* Leon Horowitz Direct 1 'm s o r r y* 1 I answered too quickly. 96 I was 3 attending for Certainteed. Keasbey and Mattison 4 no l o n g e r , a p p a r e n t l y , was i n v o l v e d . It a l r e a d y had 5 been sold to Certainteed. 6 MR. BRUCH: O b j e c t i o n , move to 7 strike the answer. The witness doesn't know 8 anything about the sale. 9 MR. COHEN: Objection. 1 0 BY MR . GA L L O : 11 ALL right, were you attending for Certainteed 12 or for K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n ? 13 A I was attending for Certainteed. 14 Q And, why i s i t that you continued to attend 15 the ATI meetings after Certainteed took over? 16 A " Yes, if you n o t i c e the f i r s t s u b j e c t , or the 17 m a i n s u b j e c t was U.S. P u b l i c H e a l t h S u r v e y . At that 18 t i m e , or p r e v i o u s to t h a t , w h i l e s t i l l r e p r e s e n t i n g 19 K e a s b e y a n d M a t t i s o n , the U.S. P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e 20 had p r e s e n t e d a p r o g r a m , a p r o g r a m to the ATI, in 21 w h i c h t h e y w a n t e d to e v a l u a t e d u s t e x p o s u r e s as well 22 as m a k e a m e d i c a l s t u d y at a s b e s t o s p l a n t s , and they 23 had p r o p o s e d it to the m e m b e r s of the A T I . A n d as a 24 r e p r e s e n t a t i v e of K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n , I was i n v o l v e d 25 w i t h t h a t , a n d I r e c o m m e n d e d to C e r t a i n t e e d m a n a g e m e n t ' _ K~nipe~s-C' ohe~n A sso cia te_s Castlemaii.CERT000G95 1 Leon Horowitz - Direct 97 2 :hat since the m e e t i n g s were still c o n t i n u i n g and 3 :hat they wou l d p r o b a b l y - - a n d that they would visit 4 ur p l a n t s t h a t C e r t a i n t e e d now o w n e d , that I c o n t i n u e 5 cnng to these meetings, and that's why I went. 6 W h o is Mr. J o h n s o n , r e f e r r e d to at 7 he top? 8 Mr. Johnson was Chief Engineer for Certainteed 9 roducts. 10 And, Messrs Davis and Fink, who were they? 11 . Mr. Davis was a Vice-President, and I believe 12 e was -- I t h i n k he was put in c h a r g e of the P i p e 13 i v i s i o n , the a r e a that t h e y b o u g h t o v e r from 14 e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n . And Mr. Fink -- 1 5 THE COURT REPORTER: They area 16 that they - 1 7 THE WITNESS: That they bought from 18 Keasbey and Mattison. 1 9 Mr. Fink was Safety Director for 20 Certainteed Products. 21 MR . GALLO : 22 A n d t his is a d o c u m e n t w r i t t e n by you? 23 T h i s is a d o c u m e n t w r i t t e n by me. 24 MR. SHEIN: I object to the document 25 if it's w r i t t e n by him, b e c ause it's e x p r e s s i n g ~ K n' ipes-C-- --o--hen A ssociates Caslleman.CERT000G9G 1 Leon H o row itz Di r e c t 98 2 an o p i n i o n with regard to " i r r e s p o n s i b l e 3 w r i t i n g . " And he's being o f f e r e d as a 4 fact witness. And there's been no expertise 5 e s t a b l i s h e d to qu a l i f y him to make such a 6 statement. 7 BY MR. GALLO: 8 Q' Just so we clarify, Mr. H o r o w i t z , when you 9 summarized these meetings that you attended and 10 s p e c i f i c a l l y , m e e t i n g s of the Asbestos T e x t i l e 11 I n s t i t u t e s Air H y g i e n e C o m m i t t e e , w e r e you b a s i c a l l y 1 2 summarizing the discussions and transactions that 13 took p l a c e at the m e e t i n g s ? 14 A 1 was r e p o r t i n g on the t r a n s a c t i o n s that 15 took p l a c e at the m e e t i n g , and n a t u r a l l y , it was 16 in s u m m a r y f o r m , yes. 17 9 * T u r n i n g now to H o r o w i t z 22, can you t e H us what 18 this d o c u m e n t is, and its d a t e ? 19 A * Again, another meeting with the Asbestos Textile 20 I n s t i t u t e Air H y g i e n e and M a n u f a c t u r i n g C o m m i t t e e , 21 w h i c h was on J a n u a r y 24th, 1 9 6 3 , and I w r o t e it on 22 J a n u a r y 2 9 t h , 1 9 6 3 , r e p o r t i n g it to Mr. H. C. J o h n s o n , 23 V i c e - P r e s i d e n t of E n g i n e e r i n g at the t i m e , or C h i e f of 24 E n g i n e e r i n g , his e x a c t t i t l e . 25 9 ` And, referring to the first paragraph, would you K nipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.ctKiuuuby/ 1 Leon Horowitz - D i r e c t 99 2 read that/ please/ the first underlined title? 3 A. Environmental and Medical Inplant Occupational 4 Health Study of the Asbestos Products Industry. 5 Wfl was d o i n g t h i s s t u d y / or p l a n n i n g to 6 doit? 7 A The u s Public Health Service. This was a 8 continuation of the previous discussions that U.S. Publi: 9 Health Service had on their proposal to study the 10 asbestos industry. 11 9 - Did the study actually take place? 12 A * T ^ e study -- part of the study a c t u a l l y took 13 p l a c e . 14 9. What part? 1 5 T h e r e w e r e two p a r t s . One was s u p p o s e d to be 1 6 environmental, the other medical. The only part that 17 was e v e r c o n d u c t e d was the e n v i r o n m e n t a l . 18 As part of that study, were any C e r t a i n t e e d 1 9 s visited by the U.S. Public Health Service? 20 Yes. 21 W h i c h p l a n t s , if you recall? 22 T w o p l a n t s . O n e in St. L o u i s and one in S a n t a 23 24 And -- 25 Santa Clara, that was the other one. ~ K nipes~-C ohen A ssociates ~~ Castleman.CERT000698 1 2 Q. L e o n H o r o w i t z Di r e ct 100 E x a c t l y what p r o c e d u r e s were p e r f o r m e d , or 3 what tests or measurements were performed? 4 MR. SHEIN: O b j e c t e d to as being 5 i r r e l e v a n t to my client, Mel v i n T i m b e r s . 6 BY MR. GALLO : 7 Q. You may answer. 8 A. T h e -- a t e a m of U. S . P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e 9 Workers o r people came t0 the plant. One person was 1 O a s s i g n e d to take work histories of the employees, 11 w h i l e a t e a m of four p e o p l e w e r e u s i n g v a r i o u s m e t h o d s 12 a v a i l a b l e at the time, as well as new m e t h o d s of 13 d u s t c o u n t i n g or dust s a m p l i n g , and they w e r e c o u n t i n g 14 on the p r e m i s e s . 15 Q. Is this a d o c u m e n t a c t u a l l y w r i t t e n by you? 16 A. Yes, it is. 17 Gt. Or a copy of a doc u m e n t written by you? 18 A. T h i s is a copy of a d o c u m e n t w r i t t e n by 19 m e . 20 MR. COHEN: May I just go off - 21 can we go off the vi d e o a m o m e n t , and stay on 22 the stenographic? 23 MR. STRAIN: We're going off the record 24 and the time is 12:16. 25 (Whereupon the following discussions Knipes-Cohen Associ.ates Castleman.CERT000699 1 Leon Horowitz - Direct 101 2 were held off the videotape record.) 3 MR. COHEN: I just want to ask, the 4 copy of this e x h i b i t that I have, in Listing 5 p e r s o n s in a t t e n d a n c e u n d e r Dr. Ki r s c h n e r and 6 e n t e r Line, have a d a s h and t h e n t h e r e is a 7 space of about an inch. And then the words, 8 due -- 9 THE WITNESS: Ditto. 10 MR. COHEN: Oh, that is ditto? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 M R . C O H E N : Okay. 13 MR. STRAIN: We're back on the 1 4 r e c o r d , and the time is 12:17. 15 BY M R . G A L L O : 16 Q Wo u L d you turn now to H o r o w i t z E xhibit 23, 17 p L e a s e ? 18 A * I believe I have a 25. 19 MR. M A S O N : It; l ooks Like a 25, 20 J une 1 , 1 964. 21 TH E W I T N E S S : Is that the same one? 22 MR. GALLO: Yes. 23 THE WITNESS: R . L a n z t? / 24 MR. GALLO: Yes. 25 MR. GALLO ~ Knipes-C'ohen A ssociates " Casllemaii.CERT000700 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Di r e c t 102 2 Q. W o u l d you tell us what this one p age 3 document is? 4 A. I was reporting on some material I had read 5 a b o u t a s b e s t o s e x p o s u r e and neoplasia to Mr. R. L. 6 La n z, and the date was June 1st, 1964 7 Q. Who is Mr. L a n z ? 8 A. Mr. Lanz was V i c e - P r e s i d e n t of the Pipe D i v i s i o n 9 at that time. 10 Q . Of C e r t a i n t e e d ? 11 A . Of Certai n t e e d . 12 Q . A n d , what was y o u r p u r p o s e in w r i t i n g t h i s to 13 him? 14 A . To keep him u p d a t e d on the d i s c u s s i o n s and the 15 p r e s s and in the f i e l d a b o u t a s b e s t o s and its r e l a t i o n - 16 ship to c a n c e r . 17 Q . All right. 1-8 Did it have a n y t h i n g to do with the 19 U.S. Public Health Service proposed study? 20 A. I r e m i n d e d him of the fact that there was an 21 o n - g o i n g p r o g r a m / U.S. P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e was g o i n g 22 to m a k e a s t u d y of the a s b e s t o s i n d u s t r y / yes. 23 3. Were you, in any way, u r ging that the c o m p a n y 24 c o o p e r a t e or t a k e a p o s i t i o n w i t h r e s p e c t to t h i s - - 25 MR. COHEN: Objection, leading. Knipes-Cohen Associates castleman.CERT000701 1 Leon H o ro w itz - D i r e c t 103 2 MR. SHEIN: Object to the form. 3 BY MR . GALLO : 4 Q. Ok a y , what was your p u r p o s e in w r i t i n g this to 5 Mr. Lanz with respect to the U.S. Public Health 6 Service Study? 7 A. To urge the c o m p a n y to join in the study, to 8 have them visit us, yes. 9 MR. SHEIN: I further object to that 1 0 portion of the document that refers to what the 11 U.S. Public Health Service felt, paragraph three. 12 MR . GALLO : O k a y . 13 BY MR . G A L L O : 14 0. Is t h e r e a n o t a t i o n in h a n d w r i t i n g , at the 15 bottom of that? 1 6 A. Yes, there is, 17 Q. 18 A. Whose handwriting That's mine. is that? 19 Q. W o u l d you read it to us, p l e a s e ? 20 A. T h e n a m e , R. L. L a n z p h o n e d J u n e 2nd, 1964, 21 n o t i f i c a t i o n , o k a y for U.S. P u b l i c H e a l t h S e r v i c e 22 visi t . 23 Q . Okay. 24 And, what did that indicate? 25 A. It i n d i c a t e d that Mr. L a n z a g r e e d that we s h o u l d ` Knipes-C~~ohen A ssociates Castieman.CbRI000/02----- 1 LeonHorowitz-Direct 104 2 permit the U.S. P ublic Health Service to visit our 3 plants. 4 Q. Just one other thing, there's a reference here 5 to a Dr. S e l i k o f f , in the first p a r a g r a p h , and an 6 A m e r i c a n I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n e M e e t i n g in P h i l a d e l p h i a 7 on April 29th, 1 964. 8 A. Right. 9 a. Is that a m e e t i n g that you a t t e n d e d ? 10 A. Yes. , 11 a . Did you attend any other conferences sponsored 12 sy Dr. S e l i k o f f 9 13 A. T h i s was not s p o n s o r e d by Dr. S e l i k o f f . 14 i. I'm sorry. 15 Did you attend any other conferences 16 w h e r e Dr. S e l i k o f f was i n v o l v e d as a s p e a k e r ? 17 A . Yes. 18 Q. What other conferences did you attend? 19 A. The main one and first one was the large 20 c o n f e r e n c e in 1 9 6 4 at the W a l d o r f - A s t o r i a , which was 21 an I n t e r n a t i o n a l c o n f e r e n c e . 22 Q. What was the s u bject of that c o n f e r e n c e ? 23 MR. COHEN: i n c u s e me, I'm going to 24 o b j e c t to that being a s t a t e m e n t of the main one 25 and the first one. --- ------------- -------K--n-i-p-e-s---C--o-h-e-n A ssociates CasTleman7CERT00D7D3 1 Leon Ho rowi t z Di r e c t 105 2 THE W I T N E S S : First one in my -- that 3 I met Dr. S e l i k o f f , I m e a n t , or heard Dr. 4 Selikoff. 5 MR . GALLO : 6 1 Okay, what was the first conference that you 7 ittended where Dr. Selikoff was involved? 8 ' ^ ^ was the I n t e r n a t i o n al Conference on asbestos 9 t the Waldorf-Astoria. 10 . And, what was the subject of that c o n f e r e n c e ? 11 . The subject of the conference was asbestos 12 nd its r e l a t i o n s h i p to o c c u p a t i o n a l d i s ease. 13 . What o c c u p a t i o n a l d i sea ses was the c o n f e r e n c e 14 involved with? 1 5 A. They were involved with asbestos is, lung 16 c a n c e r and m e s o t h e l i o m a . 17 And were all three of those d i s e a s e s d i s c u s s e d 18 t t h a t c o n f e r e n c e at the W a l d o r f - A s t o r i a in 1 9 6 4 ? 19 . Theywere. 20 Who with whom did you attend that conference 21 rom C e r t a i n t e e d ? W h o f r o m C e r t a i n t e e d went with you 22 o the c o n f e r e n c e ? 23 I don't recall anybody else from Certainteed. 24 don't recall. 25 Did Mr. H u t c h c r o f t -- Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.ctKiuuu/U4 1 Leon Horow itz Direct 1 06 2 A. No. 3 Q. -- or Mr. Shaw go with you? 4 A. Hr. Shaw was not -- 5 MR. COHEN: Objection. 6 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 7 THE W I T N E S S : Do I a n s w e r that? 8 MR . GALLO : Yes. 9 THE WITNESS: Mr. Shaw was not an 10 emp loyee of Certai n t e e d , so I a n s w e r e d your 11 q u e s t i o n c o r r e c t l y , but Dr. Shaw did a t t e n d 1 2 with me, yes. 13 BY MR . G A L L O : 14 Q . To which conference? 15 A. To this c o n f e r e n c e that we' re t a l k i n g a b o u t 1 6 in 1964. 17 a . In New York? 18 A . In New Y o r k , at the W a l d o r f - A s t o r i a . 19 Q. What was the subject matt e r of Dr. S e l i k o f f 20 s p e e c h to the A m e r i c a n I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n e Foundati 21 i n Phi l a d e l p h i a -- 22 THE COURT REPORTER: What was that, 23 the Industrial -- 24 MR. GALLO: The Industrial -- American 25 I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n e M e e t i n g in P h i l a d e l p h i a , on Knipes-Cohen Associates : Castleman.CERT000705 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - D i r e c t 107 2 April29th/1964. 3 THE WITNESS: The subject was related 4 to the asbestos exposure and n eoplasia, and the 5 a r t i c l e that I a t t a c h e d to this, whi eh we don't 6 have, the newspaper article, describes that 7 event, so that was the subject matter. 8 BY MR . GALLO : 9 Q. What was meant by n e o p l a s i a ? 10 A. I u n d e r s t a n d it to m e a n c a n c e r r e l a t e d . 11 Q . Did anyone attend with you from Certai nteed? 12 A. Not that I know of, no. 13 You mean the Industrial Hygiene 14 M e e t i n g h e r e in P h i l a d e l p h i a ? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. No, none. 17 Q. Allright. 18 Going now to H o r o w i t z 24. 19 A . Yes. 20 Q. Do you have that? 21 A. Yes, I have. 22 Q. Can you give us the title and date of that? 23 A. T he t i t l e is X - r a y P r o g r a m , the d a t e , I wrot e * 24 it, was O c t o b e r 16t h , 1964. And it was w r i t t e n to 25 Mr. A n k s t a t who was P l a n t M a n a g e r of S a n t a C l a r a P l a n t Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000706 1 L e o n H o r o w i t z Di r e c t 1 08 2 in C a l i f o r n i a . 3 Q. Would you read the -- that's all right. 4 Let's go to the next document. 5 W o u l d you t a k e a look/ p l e a s e at 6 H o r o w i t z 25. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What is that and who wrote i t ? 9 A. I w ro t e it. The title was Chest X-ray Program. 1 0 The d a t e i t was w r i t t e n was A u g u s t 11, 1965. It was 11 a n a t t e m p t to t e l l all P i p e P l a n t M a n a g e r s , and d i r e c t 12 them on having a chest x-ray program. 13 MR. COHEN: Can we i d e n t i f y that as a 14 t h r e e p a g e d o c u m e n t / so that t h e r e is no - - 15 BY MR. GALLO: 16 Q. Tha t ' s a three page document; isn't it, Mr. 17 H o r o w i t z ? 18 A. Yes, it is. 19 Q. And in the first s e n t e n c e , Mr. L a n z is 20 i d e n t i f i e d . Is he the same Mr. Lanz that you had 21 e a r l i e r - c o m m u n i c a t e d w i t h ? 22 A. Yes, he is. 23 Q. As d e s c r i b e d in H o r o w i t z 23? 24 A . Yes. 25 Gt. A n d , who is the D.J. D o n a l d r e f e r r e d to in the Knipes-Cohe' n A ssociates Castleman.CERT000707 1 Leon Horowitz Di rect 109 2 first paragraph? 3 A. That was the Doctor c o n s u l t a n t to the Ambler 4 plant, or to the Corporate Headqua r t e r s. 5 Q. W h e r e was he located? 6 A. In A m b l e r or l o c ality, I'm not sure. 7 THE COURT R E P O R T E R : In A m b l e r or - 8 THE WITNESS: Or local area. 9 BY MR . GALLO: 1 0 Q. Fina l l y , I'm going to show you a document 11 L a b e l l e d H o r o w i t z 26, ask if you can i d e n t i f y it. 12 A. Y e s , I -- it is the T a b l e of O r g a n i z a t i o n for 13 K e a s b e y a n d Matti son at the t i m e I w o r k e d with them. 14 q . is th e r e a dat e down at the b o t t o m right hand 15 corner? 16 A. October 1st, 1960, yes. 17 Q . All right. 18 Is this a copy of a chart that you 19 had in y o u r p e r s o n a l file? 20 A . Y e s , it is. 21 Q . I want to direct your a t t e n t i o n now to a number 22 of d o c u m e n t s , H o r o w i t z E x h i b i t 5, 10, 11, 12, 14, 16 23 and 19. 24 A . Well, I don't think I have 11. 25 MR. BROMBERG: Could you run through Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000708 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - Direct 110 2 those numbers' again/ please? 3 MR. G A L L O : Sure, 5, 10, 11, 1 2 , 14, 4 16 and 19. 5 THE WITNESS: I have 11, I don't have 6 them in that order, 1 1 , 1 2 , 14. 7 MR. G A L L O : Down at the b o t t o m . 8 THE W I T N E S S : Oh, is this 16, I'm 9 sorry, the bottom, yeah, I have them all. 10 BY MR . GALLO: , 11 Q . Sir, are these all su m m a r i e s that you wrote of 12 meeti ngs that you attended for the Asbestos Textile 13 I n s t i t u t e on v a r i o u s d a t e s ? 14 MR. LOCKS: I object to the form. 1 5 T H E W I T N E S S : Not all. I -- N u mber 7, 16 oh, d i d you i n c l u d e 7? 17 MR. G A L L O : No, I d i d n ' t i n c l u d e 7. 18 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Number 12, 19 I don't b e l i e v e Number 12 r e f e r r e d to an actual 20 m e e t i n g . I don't be l i e v e that r e f e r r e d to an 21 a c t u a l m e e t i n g , but we can look at it a g a i n . 22 But, all the o t h e r s referred to actual m e e t i n g s 23 that the Asbestos Textile Institute -- all those 24 you referred to, yes. 25 3Y MR . GALLO: : Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000709 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - D i r e c t 111 2 Q. And in the u s u a l c o u r s e of your d u t i e s , as you 3 d e s c r i b e d to us e a r l i e r , did you write t h e s e r e p o r t s 4 f o l l o w i n g y o u r a t t e n d a n c e at t h o s e m e e t i n g s , in o r d e r 5 to summarize the tr a n s a c t i o n s for your super i o r s ? 6 A. 7 Q. Yes, I did. And were these d o c u m e n t s that you kept in your 8 persona l file since the time you wrote them? 9 A. Y e s , I did. 10 0. R e f e r r i n g to H o r o w i t z 5 / can you get that in 11 f r o n t , p l e a s e ? 12 A . Yes. 13 0 . I'm sorry, Horowitz 7 14 A . Yes. 1 5 MR. LOCKS: What number are we on 1 6 now? 17 MR. G A L L O : H o r o w i t z 7. 18 BY MR . G A L L O : 19 q . T h a t is -- w o u l d you tell us what that d o c u m e n t 20 is, p l e a s e ? 21 A . That is a r e p o r t i n g to Mr. Barge, dated November 22 2 2 n d , I9 6 0 , on a m e e t i n g in the I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n e 23 F o u n d a t ion, w h i c h o c c u r r e d on O c t o b e r 27, 1 9 6 0 , -- 24 Q . And, who wrote it? 25 A . --in Pittsburgh. Mr. Childs wrote that. _ K nipes-Cohen A' ssociates Castleman.CERT000710 1 Leon Horowitz - Di rect 112 2 MR. COHEN: Objection. 3 BY MR. GALLO: 4 Q. Did you r e c e i v e a copy of this d o c u m e n t in the 5 course of your duties? 6 A. I r e c e i v e d a c o p y in the c o u r s e of my d u t i e s . 7 Q. What was the Industrial Hygiene Foundation? 8 A. The Industrial Hygiene Foundation was and I 9 b e l i e v e s t i l l i s / is a f o u n d a t i o n o r g a n i z e d to help 10 i n d u s t r y a p p r o a c h and do r e s e a r c h on v a r i o u s o c c u p a 11 t i o n a l d i s e a s e p r o b l e m s that they may have. 12 Q. And was Mr. Childs' summarizing the transactions 13 of t h a t m e e t i n g in w r i t i n g this p a p e r ? 14 A. Yes. 1 5 Okay. 1 6 I want to show you, now, a docu m e n t 17 that I w i l l m a r k H o r o w i t z 27, and s h o w it to you. 18 T h a t is a -- w o u l d you read that to us, p l e a s e ? 19 A. T h a t is I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n e F o u n d a t i o n M e e t i n g , 20 O c t o b e r 25th, 1961 at the M e l l o n Institute, 21 w r i t t e n by -- at the M e l l o n I n s t i t u t e in P i t t s b u r g h , 22 w r i t t e n by me and w r i t t e n to Mr. A. W . S p e d d i n g , 23 O c t o b e r 3 0 t h , 1 961 . 24 q . Are these notes that you wrote after attending 25 an IHF or I n d u s t i ral H y g i e n e F o u n d a t i o n m e e t i n g , on or Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000711 1 Leon Horowi t z- * Di rect 113 2 about that date? 3 A. Yes, they were. 4 Q. And, you followed a similar practice that you 5 used in r e p o r t i n g on the ATI t r a n s a c t i o n s , when you 6 wrote this memo? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Thank you. 9 MR. BRUCH: Mr. Gallo, can I see 1 0 Numbe r 27, please? 11 BY MR . G A L L O : 12 Q. All right, Mr. Horowitz, that c o n c l u d e s our 13 d i s c u s s i o n of the d o c u m e n t s . I w o u l d like to now t u r n 14 y o u r a t t e n t i o n to the a c t u a l p r o c e d u r e you f o l l o w e d , 1 5 w h e n y o u c o n d u c t e d y o u r dust c o u n t i n g at K e a s b e y and 1 6 M a t t i s o n and at C e r t a i n t e e d . You i n d i c a t e d to us that 17 you w o u l d a c t u a l l y p l a c e the i n t a k e t u b e for the dust 18 c o u n t i n g d e v i c e r i g h t at the w o r k e r ' s f a c e ; is that 19 c o r r e c t ? 20 A. Right near his'breathing zone. 21 Q . 22 All right. And, you would stand there for how 23 long? 24 A. Any one e x p o s u r e for three samp l e s of ten m i n utes 25 each. ~ Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000712 1 Leon Horowitz - D i r e c t 114 2 Q. During the course of taking dust counts for 3 either K e a s b e y M a t tison or Certai nteed, did you have 4 occas i o n to discuss with the workers what you were 5 doi ng? 6 A. T h e y w o u l d u s u a l l y , very f r e q u e n t l y , talk to 7 me, yes. 8 Q. And what would they say and what would you 9 respond? 10 MR. COHEN: Objection, hearsay. 11 BY MR . G A L L O : 12 Q. You can answer. 13 A. V a r i o u s things. We would talk about e v e r y t h i n g 14 a r o u n d the sun . S o m e t i m e s , t h e y w o u l d ask me what I 15 was doi ng . 16 Q. And, w hat was your r e s p o n s e , if a s k e d what you 17 w e r e do i n g ? 18 A. 1 9 20 21 22 23 24 I told them -MR. LOCKS: I object to the qu e s t io n . I t ' s too g e n e r a l . It c a l l s for an e i g h t y e a r p e r i o d of time. He has not s p e c i f i e d when he d i d it, show he d i d it, who he d i d it w i t h and what d e p a r t m e n t s , how many times he did it, or any t h i n g of that nature. It's much too general. 25 BY MR . G A L L O : Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000713 1 Leon Horowitz - D i r e c t 115 2 Q. You can answer, Mr. Horowitz. 3 MR. LOCKS: Besides being hearsay. 4 MR. BRUCH: Just note my objection 5 for the record. 6 THE W I T NESS: I r e s p o n d e d to them, to 7 the question, and told them I was sampling the 8 dust in the air at the s t a t i o n that they were 9 working at. 1 0 BY MR . G A L L O : 11 0. Did you conduct these counts throughout the 12 K e a s b e y and Matt i son Plant #1, the s h i n g l e plant, during 13 the y e a r s y o u w e r e w o r k i n g for K e a s b e y a n d M a t t i s o n ? 14 A. The shingle plant was torn down within less than 15 a year in a time -- after the time I was hired 16 Q . Do you recall w h e t h e r you ever c o n d u c t e d any 17 c 0 u n t s t h e r e ? 18 A. I don't -- I didn't conduct any counts there. 19 <3. How about plant 4? 20 A. P l a n t 4, I -- 21 MR. COHEN: O b j e c t i o n to the form of 22 the question. 23 BY MR . G A L L O : 24 Q. Did you c o n d u c t c o u n t s , dust c o u n t s , in p l a n t 25 4? Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000714 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Di r e c t 11 6 2. I c o n d u c t e d dust c o u n t s in p l a n t 4. 3. And, did you c o n d u c t dust c o u n t s in p l a n t 8 ? 4 M R . S H E I N : O b j e c t i o n to, u n l e s s it's 5 s p e c i f i e d when he c o n d u c t e d them. 6 Y MR . G A L L O : 7. You can answer, Mr. Horowitz. 8 ,. I c o n d u c t e d dust c o u n t s in plant 8 . 9. W h e n did you first c o n d u c t a dust count in 1 0 lant 8 ? 11 ,. I have no recall of specific date. 12 .. Did you conduct any dust counts - 13 MR . S H E I N : M o v e that his a n s w e r be 14 stricken. 15 THE WITNESS: What was the question, 16 please? 17 Y MR. G A L L O : 18 [. Did you c o n d u c t any dus t counts in plant 8 , when 19 ou were still working for Keasbey and Mattison? 20 ,. Yes, I d id. 21 MR. C O H E N : O b j e c t i o n . I o b j e c t to 22 the form of the question, leading. 23 MR. SHEIN: I also object. 24 (Y MR. G A L L O : ' 25 l. Did you c o n d u c t any dust c o u n t s in p l a n t 8 , when Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT0007T5" 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Di r e c t 1 1 7 2 you were working for Certainteed? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 MR. SHEIN: Again, object. 5 MR. COHEN: May I have a continuing 6 o b j e c t i o n to any Leading q u e s t i o n s w i t h regard 7 to the n u m b e r of the plant where he may or may 8 not have c o n d u c t e d some sort of t e s ting 9 for which -- 1 0 MR. GALLO: No, I suggest you make 11 the objection. 12 13 BY MR. G A L L O : MR. COHEN: Okay. 14 Q . In c o n d u c t i n g dust counts for either Keasbey 15 M a t t i s o n or C e r t a i n t e e d , did you f o l l o w the p r o c e d u r e 16 that you o u t l i n e d to us, i n i t i a l l y ? 17 A . Yes. 18 MR. COHEN: Objection, leading. 19 BY MR. GALLO: 20 Q. Did you ever takedust counts at any K e a s b e y and 21 M a t t i s o n or C e r t a i n t e e d P l a n t in A m b l e r in a r e a s w h e r e 22 r e s p i r a t o r s were r e q u i r e d ? 23 A . 24 Yes. MR. SHEIN: O b j e c t e d to as being too 2 5 broad in scope Knipes-Cohen Associates castieman.ctKiuuunb 1 Leon Horowi t z Di re c t 1 1 8 2 BY MR. GALLO: 3 Q. If you did take a dust count in such an area, 4 and you observed that respirators weren't being used - 5 well, first of all, did you ever observe respirators not 6 being used in an area where they were r e q u i r e d ? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did that occur? 9 A. Y e s , it did. 1 0 Q. And, if you made such an o b s e r v a t i o n , what would 11 you do? 12 A. I would talk to the Manager, Plant Manager, about 13 i t . 14 Q. And, what would you tell him? 1 5 A. I would tell him there's a respirator program 1 6 and refer to it, and tell him they w e r en't a d h e r i n g to 17 i t . 18 Q. They meaning whom? T9 A. 20 21 22 Meaning the Plant Manager. MR. SHEIN: Note my c o n t i n u i n g o b j e c t i o n to this q u e s t i o n as being too broad in sc o p e and not a p p l y i n g to my client. 23 BY MR . G A L L O : 24 Q. A n d , what was the P l a n t M a n a g e r ' s r e s p o n s e to 25 your s t a t e m e n t ? 1 Knipes-Cohen_ A ssociates Castleman.CERT000717 1 Leon Horowitz Di r ec t 11 9 2 MR. COHEN: Objection/hearsay. 3 MR. BRUCH: I have the same objection. 4 MR. BROMBERG: You're not offering this 5 to prove the truth of what the Plant M a n a g e r 6 said/ are you? 7 MR. GALLO: No. 8 MR. BRUCH: I object to the q u e s t i o n 9 o n l y b e c a u s e it may r e f e r to p l a n t s o t h e r 1 0 than where this -- these plants were n o t i c e of 11 deposition. 12 BY MR . G A L L O : 13 Q. You understand that I'm questioning you 14 r e g a r d i n g the p l a n t s in A m b l e r / d o n ' t y o u , Mr. 15 Horowitz? 16 MR. LOCKS: If you are, then I o b j e c t 17 to that, be c a u s e all of the line of q u e s t i o n i n g 18 that y o u ' v e had in the last few m i n u t e s r e g a r d e d 19 plant # 8 , and only plant # 8 . And t h a t ' s my 20 u n d e r s t a n d i n g of the q u e s t i o n . If it's not, 21 then p l e a s e , if you i n t e n d e d a d i f f e r e n t a n s w e r 22 for all the p l a n t s , t h e n just m a k e it c l e a r on 23 the record, Mr. Gallo, make sure the witness 24 u n d e r s t o o d it. 25 MR. COHEN: Join with that objection. Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000718 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - D i r e c t 120 2 It was the only Line of i n q u i r y . b e f or e . 3 BY MR. G ALLO: 4 Q. Mr. Horowitz, answer the question, please? 5 MRi C O H E N : Can I -- can I, just - 6 can we get a c l a r i f i c a t i o n as to whether your 7 question relates -- I mean, are you following 8 the same line, or are we now t a l k i n g about any 9 plant, K e a s b e y M a t t i s o n or C e r t a i n t e e d may 1 0 have been involved with? 11 MR. GALLO: I think my e arlier 12 question was, Keasbey Mattison or Certainteed 13 plants in Ambler. 14 MR. COHEN: Okay. 1 5 MR. GALLO: And, I'll restate the 1 6 q u e s t i o n , if I can r e m e m b e r it. 17 THE WITNESS: What was the response 18 of the Managers, when I - 19 MR. GALLO: I'm try i n g to get 20 somethingelse. 21 BY MR. G A L L O : 22 Q. Mr. H o r o w i t z , was there a p r o g r a m in e f f e c t , 23 w h i c h the m a n a g e r s w e r e s u p p o s e d to f o l l o w at all 24 K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n ' s p l a n t s ? 25 MR. COHEN: O b j e c t i o n , no r e f e r e n c e as Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000719 1 Leon H o ro w it z - D i r e c t 121 2 to time. 3 BY MR. GALLO: 4 Q. You can answer, Mr. Horowitz. 5 A. The exhibits were -- 6 MR. LOCKS: Also, -- 7 THE COURT REPORTER: Pardon, also - 8 MR . L O C K S : It was a l i t t l e too 9 general. The program about what, about getting 1 0 paid, program about selling product, program 11 about d i s t r i b u t i o n of m e m o r a n d u m , what's the 12 program about, Mr. Gallo? 13 THE WITNESS: A respirator program 1 4 which -- 1 5 MR. GALLO: Let me rephrase the 1 6 question, Mr. Horowitz. 17 BY M R . G A L L O : 18 Q . Was th e r e in e ffect d u r i n g the time that you 19 w e r e w i t h K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n , a p r o g r a m r e g a r d i n g 20 r e s p i r a t o r u s e , w h i c h P l a n t M a n a g e r s at K e a s b e y and 21 M a t t i s o n p l a n t s w e r e to f o l l o w ? 22 A. That was shown as one of the e x h i b i t s earlier 23 t o d a y . A n d t h a t was the p r o g r a m c o n t i n u i n g from 24 K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n t h r o u g h C e r t a i n t e e d p r o d u c t s . 25 Q. And, if you p o i n t e d out to a Plant M a n a g e r that Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000720 1 Leon H o r o w it z Di r e c t 1 22 2 respirators were not being worn where required, what 3 r e s p o n s e w o u l d the Plant M a n a g e r make to you? 4 MR. LOCKS: O b j e c t i o n , calls for 5 speculation. 6 MR . COHEN: Obje c t i o n . 7 BY MR . GALLO : 8 Q. 9 A. 10 Q. 11 A . You can answer, Mr. Horowitz. Calls for speculation. That' s all right, you can -It's very difficult to answer 12 S o m e w o u l d say, w e l l , we p r o v i d e it to t h e m , and they 13 d o n ' t w e a r it, or some w o u l d say, w e l l , it's t h e r e , 14 or s o m e w o u l d say, w e l l , t h e y ' r e w e a r i n g it w h e n I was 15 there before, things like that. 16 MR. C O H E N : I'm g o i n g to o b j e c t to 17 this. It has no b a s i s in t i m e , p l a n t l o c a t i o n , 18 MR. SHEIN: I join in that o b j e c t i o n . 19 BY M R . G A L L O : 20 q m Mr. H o r o w i t z , did the Plant M a n a g e r s i n d i c at e to 21 y o u on such o c c a s i o n s that y o u w o u l d p o i n t out the 22 f a i l u r e to wear r e s p i r a t o r s in c e r t a i n ar e a s that they 23 knew of the p r o g r a m -- ' 24 MR. COHEN: Objection. 25 BY MR . G A L L O : Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000721 1 Leon H o r o w it z Di r e c t 1 23 2 Q. -- was to be followed? 3 MR. COHEN: O b j e c t i o n to the form 4 of the question. It's leading - - 5 MR . SHEIN: Hearsay . 6 MR. COHEN: -- it's hearsay. 7 BY MR. GA L L O : 8 Q. Go ahead. 9 A. It was a p r o g r a m that came from staff, and the 1 0 u n d e r s t a n d i n g was that they all knew about it. 11 And t h e r e was no q u e s t i o n r a i s e d w h e t h e r , did you know 12 about it. 13 Q. Now, when you first went with Keasbey and 14 M a t t i s o n i n May o f I 9 6 0 , did you acqui re any k n o w l e d g e 1 5 as to what they had been do i ng, prior to your coming 1 6 with them, in the areas of dust co u n t i n g and dust 17 c o n t r o l ? 18 MR . S H E I N : Ob j e c ted t o a s h e a r s a y . 19 BY MR . GALLO: 20 Q . Go ahead and answer, Mr. Horowitz. 21 A. I p i c k e d up some i n f o r m t ion b oth v e r b a l and 22 from the c o p i e s o f m e m o r a n d u m th at I f o u n d in my 23 desk. 24 Cl. T h e s e c o p i e s of m e m o r a n d a that you f o u n d in y o u r 25 d e s k , w e r e t h e s e d o c u m e n t s that you w e r e g i v e n when you Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000722 1 Leon Horowitz ~ Di rect 124 2 took over as I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n i s t ? 3 A. T h e y were just in the desk. 4 Q> And/ did you have any other methodsof gaining 5 k n o w l e d g e of what had been done before you were there? 6 A. From the past m e e t i n g s of the ATI/ I n o ticed- 7 that Mr. Arthur May represented the company - 8 THE COURT REPORTER: Mr. who? 9 THE WITNESS: Arthur May, represented 1 0 the c o m p a n y in the same c a p acity that I did 11 later on. 12 MR. BRUCH: What company are you 13 referring to? 14 THE WITNESS: Keasbey and Mattison 15 BY MR. GALLO: 16 Q. Goahead. 17 A. And a Mr. Schmidt/ when I found the dust 18 c o l l e c t i n g / dust s a m p l i n g e q u i p m e n t / I f o u n d some 19 m a t e r i a l of dust counts that Mr. Schmidt had made/ 20 p r e v i o u s to my coming to the company. 21 MR. C O H E N : U n l e s s t h o s e -- e x c u s e me, 22 unless those documents are produced, I'm going 23 to object, and ask that any testi m o n y regarding 24 what he may or may not have known be s t r i c k e n 2e on the basis that it's hearsay. Also, on the ----- --------- ----- - Knipes-Cohen A sso'ciates Castleman.CERT000723 1 Leon Horowitz - D i r e c t 125 2 basis of the best evidence rule. 3 Y MR G A L L O : 4 Did you observe any dust count equipment that 5 easb 6 hem ? and Mattison had before you came with 7 Yes, they had some equipment. 8 Did you have to p u r c h a s e all a d d i t i o n a l 9 uipment when you went with them, or did they have 1 0 rtain e q u i p m e n t that you were able to use? 11 They had most of the e q u i p m e n t I needed. I belie 12 bought some a c c e s s o r i e s . That ' s about it. 13 All right. 1 4 What did they have? 1 5 They had a midget impinger, which I described 16 e f o , the gl a s s -- the gl a s s c o l l e c t i n g m a t e r i a l , t h e 17 and - h a n d o p e r a t o r p u m p , the tube and m i c r o s c o p e for 18 o u n 11 n g . 19 . Were these the items of e q u i p m e n t that would 20 e used, g e n e r a l l y , in i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n e at that 21 o i n t in t i m e to m e a s u r e a dust h a z a r d ? 22 . They were the basic tools that we needed, yes. 23 . During the years that you were with Keasbey and 24 a t t i s o n , Mr. H o r o w i t z , did y o u at any t i m e ask a 25 a nadianminirg c o m p a n y , a s u p p l i e r of raw a s b e s t o s , to " _ Knip es-Coh_en Associates Castleman.CERT000724 1 Leon Horowitz - Di rect 126 2 come d o w n and i n s t r u c t the w o r k e r s at the K e a s b e y and 3 Matti son Plant? 4 A. Atnotime. 5 q. Did you ever s u g g e s t to a n y o n e a b o v e you in the 6 K e a s b e y and Matti son h i e r a r c h y or r e c o m m e n d to anyone 7 that a C a n a d i a n mini n g company do that? 8 A. I did not. 9 q. Did you ever suggest to the Canadian mining 10 c o m p a n i e s , or did you ever recommend to your superiors 11 that the C a n a d i a n m i n i n g c o m p a n i e s put a w a r n i n g Label 12 on the a s b estos bags during the years you were with 13 K e a s b e y and M a t t i son? 14 A. 1 5 16 17 18 No, I did not. MR. COHEN: Can we have just a n a r r o w i n g of what we mean when we're talk i n g about Canadian asbestos mining companies. MR. BRITTON: That's cross 19 examination. 20 MR. C O H E N : W e ' r e u s i n g a t e r m of 21 art here. I would like to know the defin i t i o n 22 or the p a r a m e t e r s of what a C a n a d i a n mining 23 company was. You're asking him a question and 24 he's r e s ponding, and I would just like to know - 25 MR. G A L L O : I t h i n k the term is self Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000725 1 Leon Horowi t z Di re c t 127 2 explan a t o r y , Mr. Cohen, but I'll ask the 3 wit n e s s -- 4 BY MR . GALLO : 5 q. Do you u n d e r s t a n d by my q u e s t i o n that I mean a 6 m i n i n g c o m p a n y that m i n e s a s b e s t o s in C a n a d a , don't you, 7 Mr.Horowitz? 8 A. No, I u n d e r s t o o d it to m e a n any s u p p l i e r to 9 Keasbey and Hattison. 1 0 MR. COHEN: Thank you, that's why 11 my objection. 12 BY MR. GALLO: 13 Q. So, you never requested - 14 A. I never requested - 15 Q. - - t h o s e things from a supplier? 16 A. -- no, e i ther my m a n a g e m e n t to ask for that 17 i n f o r m a t i o n , nor did I -- or the q u e s t i o n you a s k e d , 18 nor d i d I c o n t a c t any m i n i n g s u p p l i e r , no. 19 q . Would you give the same answers for the years 20 that you were with Certai n t e e d ? 21 A. I would give the same answers, yes. 22 q . You did not make any such contact or 23 r e c o m m e n d a t i o n - 24 A. I did not. 25 Q. -- of your s u p e r i o r s ? , .. Castleman.CERT000726 Knipes-Conen Associates 1 L e o n H o r o w i t z - Di r e c t / C r o s s 128 2 I did not. 3 All right. 4 MR. STRAIN: Excuse me, gentlemen, 5 this concludes tape number two, and the time 6 is 1 2 : 4 4 . 7 (Whereupon the following discussion 8 was off the videotape record.) 9 MR. GALLO: That concludes the 1 0 D i r e c t , good time to break. 11 (Whereupon a lunch break was taken 12 from 12:45 a.m. to 1:40 p.m.) 13 MR. S T R A I N : T h i s is the b e g i n n i n g 1 4 of t a p e n u m b e r t h r e e , and the t i m e is 1:41. 1 5 MR. GALLO: Well, have you started 1 6 yet, go off the tape for a minute. 17 MR. STRAIN: We're going off the 18 r e c o r d , the time is 1:42. 1 9 MR. S T R A I N : T h i s is the b e g i n n i n g 20 of tape number three, and we're now back on 21 the r e c o r d , and the time is 1:44. 22 MR. GALLO: That concludes the 23 Direct E x a m i n a t i o n of Mr. H o r o w i t z . We'll s 24 now proceed with Cross Examination. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000727 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross * 1 29 2 CROSS EXAMINATION 3 4 BY MS . G I B S O N : 5 Q. Mr. H o r o w i t z , my n a m e is E l i z a b e t h G i b s o n , 6 and I represent Brinco Mining Limited. 7 You m e n t i o n e d in y o u r t e s t i m o n y that 8 you learned about possible link between asbestos 9 and cancer through some literature that you read. 10 Did you r e c e i v e that l i t e r a t u r e in the c o u r s e of 11 y o u r e m p l o y m e n t at K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n ? 12 A. It. was the t y p e of l i t e r a t u r e that c r o s s e s 13 y o u r d e s k . 14 Q . 1 5 A. From where would you receive such literature? Gene ral l i t e r a t u r e i n formati on p e r t a i n i n g to 16 occupationa l health. 17 Q . Was it one of y o u r d u t i e s at K e a s b e y and 18 M a t t i son to r e a d such l i t e r a t u r e ? 19 A. 20 Q . Yes. Was that also true when you worked for 21 C e r t a i n t e e d 22 A . Yes, it was. 23 Q . No w , y o u m e n t i o n e d that you met w i t h a Dr. Knox 24 who r e p r e s e n t e d T u r n e r - N e w a l l s o m e t i m e in 1 9 6 0 , when 25 y ou w o r k e d for K e a s b e y and Matti son Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000728 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 1 30 2 A. ' Yes. 3 Q. Why was it that Dr. Knox came to K e a s b e y - H a t t i son 4 to give you that i n f o r m a t i o n ? 5 A. I u n d e r s t a n d he was v i s i t i n g the C o u n t r y and 6 m a k i n g s e v e r a l v i s i t s , and as a r e p r e s e n t a t i v e of 7 T u r n e r - N e w a l l , he w a n t e d to speak to m a n a g e m e n t , to 8 i n f o r m t h e m of the i n f o r m a t i o n he had that he was 9 d i s s e m i n a t i n g in this Coun t r y . 10 q , Did you understand that there was a relationship 11 b e t w e e n K e a s b e y and Matti son and T u r n e r and N e w a l l ? 1 2 A. 13 q . Yes, I did. And, what did you understand that relationship 14 t o b e ? 1 5 MR. MASON: Objection. 16 BY M S . G I B S O N : 17 q . You may answer. 18 A. I t h o u g h t it was an E n g l i s h C o m p a n y that o w n e d 19 K e a s b e y - M a t t i son. 20 q , Did you have any other -- on any other o c c a s i o n , 21 did y o u h a v e any d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h p e r s o n n e l from 22 T u r n e r and Ne w a l l about the p o s s i b l e h a z a r d s of 23 a s b e s t o s ? 24 A. At that time? 25 ------------------- -- MR. LOCKS: I o b j e c t to the form. It's : . | : Castleman.CERT000729 Knipes-Cohen Associates 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 131 2 far too broad. What time period are you 3 referring about? 4 BY MS . G I B S O N: 5 q. I'm talking about any time that you worked for 6 Keasbey-Mat t ison . 7 A. Dr. Knox was the only p e r s o n -- is that the 8 qu e st ion you asked, from England? 9 Q. 10 A. Yes. Dr. Knox was the only person I really ever 11 s p o k e to, v e r y s h o r t L y - 12 Q . And was that also t r u e for w h e n you w o r k e d at 13 C e r t a i n t e e d , did you ever have any d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h 14 T u r n e r - N e w all p e r s o n n e l ? 1 5 A. i may h a v e s p o k e n to t h e m at a m e e t i n g s u b s e 16 q u e n t to -- a f t e r C e r t a i n t e e d t o o k o v e r at the M e l l o n 17 I n s t i t u t e , or s o m e t h i n g like that. 18 THE COURT RE P O R T E R : At the what 19 institute? 20 THE W I T N E S S : At the M e l l o n I n s t i t u t e , 21 or something like that. 22 BY MS. G I B S O N : 23 q . 24 A . Do you recall Nothing. any specific / discussions? 25 MS. GIBSON: I have no other Knip es-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000730 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 1 32 2 questions. 3 BY MR. B R O M B E R G : 4 Sir, y o u ' v e b e e n s h o w n q u i t e a n u m b e r of 5 hi.bits this m o r n i n g . Are those items that belong 6 you? 7 T h e y w e r e in my file at home. 8. 9 Okay. When you say, your file at home, were 1 0 hese items that you took with you, when you left the 11 m p l o y of C e r t a i n t e e d ? 12 . 13 . Yes/theywere. Were they d o c u m e n t s that were kept in the 14 r d i n a r y c o u r s e of b u s i n e s s at C e r t a i n t e e d ? 15 . It is my p r a c t i c e to keep c o p i e s of any d o c u m e n t s 1 6 hat I have, any l e t t e r s , m e m o s , and so on, that I 17 ave had a n y t h i n g to do with. 18 . Okay. 19 . A n d I t o o k it w i t h me. 20 . Okay. 21 And that was part of y o u r p r a c t i c e in 22 he o r d i n a r y c o u r s e of b u s i n e s s while you were e m p l o y e d 23 it C e r t a i n t e e d ? 24 i. Y e s , it was. 25 I, And, the memos that you, yourself, wrote, that Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000731 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 133 2 are in h e r e , that w o u l d r e p o r t on a m e e t i n g , w o u l d they 3 be made r e l a t i v e l y soon after the m e e t i n g , itself, 4 occurred? 5 A. Usually, yes. 6 Q. As far as the m i n u t e s of the A s b e s t o s T e X t i le 7 I n s t i t u t e , they wo u l d be r e c e i v e d , I assume, s o m e t i m e 8 a f t e r t h e m e e t i n g o c c u r r e d , the a c t u a l mi nut es , 9 right? 1O A. Right. 11 Gt. All right. 12 And, you would prepare a separate 13 r e p o r t u s u a l l y to your c o m p a n y l e t t i n g t h e m know what 14 y o ur i m p r e s s i o n s or -- were of the m e e t i n g , or what you 15 iad learned fr o m , t h e meeting? 16 A. Certain cover letter, yes. 17 Q . Okay. 18 And, that was d o n e in the o r d i n a r y 19 c o u r s e of y o u r b u s i n e s s in y o u r job? 20 A . V e s . 21 q . The r e s p i r a t o r p r o g r a m , which was one of the 22 d o c u m e n t s that was m a r k e d , that was s o m e t h i n g l i k e w i s e 23 p r e p a r e d in the o r d i n a r y c o u r s e of b u s i n e s s , was it? 24 A. Yes, it was. ' 25 Q In the various letters that were written to and Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000732 1 Leon Ho ro w it z Cross 1 34 2 from you, and the memoranda those Likewise, were issued 3 in the o r d i n a r y c o u r s e of b u s i n e s s ? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. At C e r t a i n t e e d ? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Or at K e a s b e y - H a t t i s o n , if you w e r e e m p l o y e d 8 by them at that time? 9 A. Both places. 10 Q. Was t h e r e dust c o u n t i n g that went on at 11 K e a s b e y - M a t t i son? 1 2 A. Yes, there was. 13 Q. And, did it s o m e t i m e e x c e e d five m i l l i o n 14 p a r t i c l e s per c u b i c f o o t ? 1 5 A. Yes, it did. 16 MR. BROMBERG: I have no other 17 questions. 18 Oh, I'm sorry, I do have one other 1 9 one, before I pass the m i c r o p h o n e on. 20 BY MR . B R O M B E R G : 21 Q. When you went from K e a sbey and M a t t i s o n to 22 C e r t a i n t e e d , y o u r p a p e r s and f i l e s that you had in 23 y o u r job as i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t for K e a s b e y and 24 M a t t i s o n , you kept them; did you not? 25 A. Physically, we stayed in the same place, so - t Castleman.CERT000733 Knipes-Cohen Associates 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 1 35 2 Q* You had the same office, same filing cabinets, 3 samepapers? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q- A n d ' yu d id not, I a s s u m e , flush out of your 6 mind what you knew when you worked for Keasbey-Mattison 7 at the t i m e you went to w o r k for C e r t a i n t e e d , did 8 you? 9 A. It was a conti n u a n c e o f the job. 10 Q. So, what you knew on the day that you last 11 w o r k e d for K e a s b e y - M a t t i son was e s s e n t i a l l y what you 12 knew about a s b e s t o s on the first day that you went to 13 w o r k for C e r t a i n t e e d ; r i g h t ? 1 4 A. Yes, it was. 1 5 MR. BROMBERG: 1 6 questions. 17 BY MR . B R U C H : I have no other 18 Q * M r - H o r o w i t z , my n a m e is Dan B r u c h . 19 C e r t a i n t e e d . I represent 20 Were you ever an officer with 21 K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n ? 22 A- I was not an o f f i c e r of K e a s b e y and Ma t t i s o n . 23 24 A. Were you ever an o fficer with C e r t a i n t e e d ? I was not an o f f i c e r of C e r t a i n t e e d . 25 9 During your employment with Certainteed from 1962 Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000734 1 L e o n Ho r o w i t z Cr o s s 1 36 2 t0 1968, did the dust conditi ons improve, get worse 3 o r stay the same -- 4 A. I would say -- 5 Q. -- with respect to the a s b e s t o s cement pipe 6 plants. 7 A. I would say they improved. 8 Q. Now, p l a n t four in the Kea s b e y - M a t t i s o n days 9 was that the textile plant? 1O A. No, not in my time. 11 Q . What was the textile p lant? 12 A . T e x t i l e plant was plant ten in M e r e d i t h f 13 New H a m p s h i re. 14 Q. And in plant four, they made i n s u l a t i o n p r o d u c t s ? 1 5 A. T h e y m a d e v a r i o u s p r o d u c t s . It was a long, 16 w a r e h o u s e - t y p e b u i l d i n g . T h e f i r s t part of it, t h e y 17 m a d e i n s u l a t i o n p r o d u c t s . A f t e r t h a t , I t h i n k t h e r e 18 was an e m p t y s e c t i o n w h e r e the t e x t i l e p l a n t u s e d to 19 be. A n d , th e n , f u r t h e r on, sort of an a t t a c h m e n t , or 20 a d d i t i o n a l b u i l d i n g , there was a rubber -- well, they 21 m a d e a p a p e r p r o d u c t , w h i c h was u s e d as an i n s u l a t i o n 22 for e l e c t r i c a l like irons and s t u f f like that. And 23 t h e n t h e y had a r u b b e r p r o d u c t , w h i c h was g a s k e t 24 a s b e s t o s , r u b b e r g a s k e t m a t e r i a l . F u r t h e r on, and 25 I called that all plant four. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000735 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 137 2 Q. Did C e r t a i n t e e d remain a member of the ATI - 3 A. They did not. 4 Q. -- o n c e it p u r c h a s e d the a s b e s t o s c e m e n t - 5 A. They did not, they had no reason to. 6 Q. Why -- why did they not have a reason to 7 remain a mem b e r of the ATI? 8 A. They no longer had a textile plant. 9 Q. So, how many times did you attend the ATI, 10 a f t e r C e r t a i n t e e d ' p u r c h a s e d the pipe p l a n t in 11 A m b l e r and -- 1 2 A. I t h i n k it was t w i c e . 13 Q. What were the years of the U.S. Public Health 14 s t u d i e s at the C e r t a i n t e e d p l a n t s , if you k n o w ? 1 5 A. The years that they actually visited the 16 plants-- 17 Q . Right. 18 A. -- or the years of their c o m p l e t e study? 19 Q. The year they actually visited the plant, you 20 said in St. Louis and Santa Clara? 21 A. I don't recall the exact year, but I would say 22 a n y w h e r e b e t w e e n '64 and ' 6 8 -- '67. 23 Q. I notice that out of the various exhibits 24 p r e s e n t e d t o d a y , ^ t h r e e of t h e m are a f t e r 1962, when 25 C e r t a i n t e e d had p u r c h a s e d the p i p e p l a n t s , that a lot Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000736 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - Cross 138 2 of the Ke a s be y - Ra 11 i s on , or a few of the K e a s b e y - 3 M a t t i s o n records have confidential written on them. 4 What was the r e a s o n for that, if you know? 5 I've t r i e d to recall even w h e t h e r I put th a t 6 , o r a s e c r e t a r y put that on, but the r e a s o n fo r 7 , and it may have been a general company policy that 8 o e v e r i t was i n t e n d e d to -- wh o e v e r the memo, o r 9 1 1 e r was i n t e n d e d for, it was i n t e n d e d o n l y for 1 0 em. 11 Now, l o o k i n g at the t h r e e C e r t a i n t e e d exhi b i t s , 12 , 22 and 23, two of those e x h i b i t s don't have 13 c o n f i d e n t i a l w r i t t e n on them,, and one of t h e m d oes. 14 Is t h e r e any r e a s o n for the d i s t i n c t i o n ? 1 5 A. I a s s u m e it h a p p e n e d a c c i d e n t a l l y . I have - 1 6 I h a v e no k n o w l e d g e . T h e r e is no r e a s o n why an ATI 17 r e p o r t in one h a n d s h o u l d be c o n f i d e n t i a l , w h i l e the 18 -- on the n e x t time it s h o u l d not. 19 Q. Well, did the U.S. Public Health Governmental 20 A g e n c y d e c i d e to study the t e x t i l e p l a n t s first? 21 A. I b e l i e v e they did, yes, they did, b e c a u s e of 22 the h i g h e r e x p o s u r e to a s b e s t o s in that area. 23 Q. 24 A. What do you mean by higher exposure? W e l l , the use o f " a s b e s t o s in t e x t i l e p l a n t s is 25 g e n e r a l l y n i n e t y to n i n e t y - f i v e p e r c e n t of the p r o d u c t Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000737 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 1 39 2 is a s b e s t o s , B u t , the use of a s b e s t o s , in let's say 3 a s b e s t o s cem ent, is only f o u r t e e n p e r c e n t . 4 MR . COHEN: I 'm going to obj e c t to the 5 n a t u r e of the t e s t i m o n y . It c a l l s for -- it 6 c a l l s for an o p i n i o n o n l y a n e x p e r t is c o m p e t e n t 7 to re n de r . T h e r e ' s . no b a s i s b e e n e s t a b l i shed 8 that Mr. Horowitz can make these expert state- 9 ments 1 0 BY MR . B R U C H : 11 Q . I w o u l d like you to look at E x h i b i t n u m b e r 15, 12 i f you w o u l d , for a m i n u t e , p l e a s e . It re fers to the 13 s t u d i e s of six h u n d r e d and f i f t y - t h r e e K e a s b e y and 14 Matti son e m p l o y e e s in May of 1961. 15 A . Yes, I have that. 16 Q. Do you know where those e m p l o y e e s -- what plan t s 17 t h e y w e r e w o r k i n g in? 18 A. I recall a listing that I received from Mr. 19 Childs, and I assembled those, and they were from all 20 the p l a n t s of K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n . 21 Q. And, you were asked on d i r e c t e x a m i n a t i o n to read 22 paragraph one. I would like for you to read p a r a g r a p h 23 two to the J u r y , p l e a s e . 24 A. P a r a g r a p h two is, it is s i g n i f i c a n t that most 25 of t h e s e p e o p l e are o l d e r e m p l o y e e s , who have been Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000738 1 LeonHorowitz-Cross 140 2 e m p l o y e d by K & M for n i n e t e e n years or more. A l t h o u g h , 3 t h e r e is no d u s t c o n c e n t r a t i o n data a v a i l a b l e , it is 4 p r o b a b l e that dust c o n c e n t r a t i o n s in the past w ere 5 much g r e a t e r than in r ecent years. The b e a t e r man 6 o p e r a t i o n , w h i c h in g e n e r a l has not had a d e q u a t e dust 7 c o n t r o l , a p p e a r s several times on this list. This 8 w o u l d i n d i c a t e t h a t m o r e a d e q u a t e dust c o n t r o l is 9 n e c e s s a r y at this o p e r a t i o n . 1 0 Q. Mr. H o r o w i t z , do y o u know if Dr. D e l m a r D o n a l d was 11 an e m p l o y e e of C e r t a i n t e e d ? 12 A. I am a l m o s t sure he was a c o n s u l t a n t , m e d i c a l 13 c o n s u l t a n t , to K e a s b e y - M a t t i son in A m b l e r . 1 4 MR. BRUCH: Thank you, Mr. Horowitz. 1 5 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. 16 MR. CREEDON: No q u e s t i o n s . 17 BY MR . G U S K Y : 18 Q. Mr. H o r o w i t z , I b e l i e v e you told us that as a 19 r e s u l t of Dr. K n o x ' v i s i t , that a Loss C o n t r o l 20 C o m m i t t e e was f o r m e d ; is that right? 21 A. T h a t is righ t . 22 Q. Now, when Certainteed took over the operations 23 of P l a n t 8 in A m b l e r , w h a t h a p p e n e d to that C o m m i t t e e ? 24 A. / Itdisappeared. 25 Q. Is t h e r e any r e a s o n why it d i s a p p e a r e d ? Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000739 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 1 41 2 S me of the employees, people on the committee 3 'ere no l o n g e r with the c o m p a n y , and th e r e was no 4 e c i s i o n made to cont i n u e it. 5- What h a p p e n e d to Mr. S p e d d i n g , when C e r t a i n t e e d 6 ookover? 7 He was not 8 y Certainteed. he did not go he was not r e h ired 9 Do you know why that was? 10 I've always wondered. 11 On E x h i b i t 6 , down at the very b o t t o m , the lower 2 ight h a n d c o r n e r , t h e r e is an a s t e r i s k and a d e l t a 13 ign i n d i c a t i n g w h e n the m e m o was r e - i s s u e d ? 14 . Yes. 15 . Is th e r e any reason why the memo was 16 - i s s u e d w i t h i n a p p r o x i m a t e l y four m o n t h s of e a c h 17 :h e r in 1 9 6 7 ? 18 Yes, I recall that I made a -- what I thought 19 was a p o o r s t a t e m e n t in the o r i g i n a l , and if y o u n o t i c e 20 in p a r a g r a p h one, you can e v e n see the t y p e is different,. 21 I s a i d o r i g i n a l l y , dust r e s p i r a t o r s must -- must be 22 u s e d by KM or CPC p e r s o n n e l at all o p e r a t i o n s , i n v o l v i n g 23 the use of s i l i c a c e m e n t , m i c a , talc and a s b e s t o s dust. When I really meant to say where -- to add, where dust c o n t r o l is not s u f f i c i e n t to m a i n t a i n a i r b o r n e Knipes-Cohen Associates CasL!eman.CERT00074Q 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 142 2 dust concentrations below maximum permissible limits. 3 My o r i g i n a l s t a t e m e n t was c o n t r a d i c t o r y to my 4 philosophy/ that dust -- that respirators are a -- 5 not a p r i m a r y means of control. So, I added that 6 statement to it. 7 9 When started with Keasbey and Mattison 8 in 19 6 0 / did you b e l o n g to a c e r t a i n d e p a r t m e n t with 9 the company? 10 A* 11 Q * 12 A* 1 was in the E n g i n e e r i n g Department. w as that kn o w n as C e n t r a l E n g i n e e r i n g ? Central Engineering. 13 9 * And, in May of 1960/ when you start e d / how 14 m a n y e m p l o y e e s w o r k e d in that D e p a r t m e n t ? 15 A * 1 can only approximate and say ten. 16 Q - When C e r t a i n t e e d took over in 1962/ how many 17 e m p l o y e e s w o r k e d in that p l a n t ? 18 A. About eight. 19 9 * Am 1 correct/ 20 known as Pla n t 8 ? Certainteed took over what was 21 A. That's right. 22 9 And/ did they also take over any other 23 f a c i l i t i e s o u t s i d e of A m b l e r / that had p r e v i o u s l y 24 b e l o n g e d to K e a s b e y a n d M a t t i s o n ? 25 A. Yes, they did. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castieman.utKT00074'l 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 143 2 Q. And, what facilities were those? 3 A. The ^^ * Louis and the Sants Clara facility, 4 There were four altogether. I always get confused, 5 T h e r e is on e o t h e r p i p e p l a n t . 6 Q. From 196 2 to 1968, did C e r t a i n t e e d bu i l d or 7 acqui re any o t h e r a s b e s t o s cement pipe p l a n t s ? 8 A. Yes, they did. 9 Q And, could you tell us when they a c q u i r e d or 1 0 built these plants, and where these plants were 11 l o c a t e d ? 1 2 MR. BRUCH: I object to this q u e s t i o n 13 b e c a u s e it is not -- t h e r e ' s no e v i d e n c e of 1 4 the Plant i f f s who were noticed for this 1 5 d e p o s i t i o n w o r k e d in any of t h e s e o t h e r p l a n t s , 1 6 o t h e r than Ambler. It's b e yond the scope of 17 direct . 18 THE WITNESS: Answer the question? 19 MR. G U S K Y : Yes, sir. 20 THE W I T N E S S : We b u i l t new p l a n t s in 21 H i l l s b o r o , T e x a s , and in R i v e r s i d e , C a l i f o r n i a , 22 a p p r o x i m a t e l y , I think the H i l l s b o r o went up 23 first, a p p r o x i m a t e years were '64, '65 and maybe 24 a year or two later, the Riverside Plant. 25 BY M R . G U S K Y : ~Km|pes-Cohen A sso~ciates Castleman.ctKluuu/42 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - Cross 144 2 Q. When you worked for K e a s b e y - M a t ti s o n , you 3 r e p o r t e d to Mr. S p e d d i n g ; is that c o r r e c t ? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. And, I'm not clear, when you worked for 6 Certainteed, who did you report to? 7 A. The t r a n s i t i o n was to report to the same 8 function, and that was Mr. Johnson. 9 Q. And, where was his office? 10 A. His o f f i c e was in A r d m o r e , Penn s y l v a n i a . 11 Q. And y o u r s was in A m b l e r s t i l l ? 12 A . My o f f i c e was in A m b l e r , still. 13 Q . What was Mr. J o h n s o n ' s t i t l e wi t h the 14 company? 15 A . 16 Q . I b e l i e v e he was Chief E n g i n e e r Prior to test ifying today, did you review 17 your -- t h e d e p o s i t i on t r a n s c r i p t from y o u r J u n e 18 1 98 d e p o s i t i o n ? 19 A . Yes, I did. 20 Q . I b e l i e v e you made r e f e r e n c e to a report 21 D r . M e l v i n F i r s t of H a r v a r d U n i v e r s i t y in that 22 d e p o s i t i o n . 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 Q. And, D r , F i r s t , I believe, made a report about 25 dust c o n t r o l in p l a n t n u m b e r 4; is t h a t r i g h t ? Knip es-Cohen A ssoc' iates Castleman.CERT000743 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 1 45 2 Yes, he did. 3 > Since the date of t h a t " d e p o s i t i o n , have you been 4 b Ie to Locate that report? 5 i No, I have not. 6 Do you k n o w w h a t , if a n y t h i n g , was d o n e in 7 1e s p nse to the r e p o r t of Dr. First by K e a s b e y and 8 la 11 s o n ? 9 im Not too much was done. 1 0 I. Well, was anything done? 11 . An a n a l y s i s of the cost nee d e d to fol l o w his 12 e c o m m e n d a t i o n was m a d e , a n d it was v e r y c o s t l y , and 13 m a d e a -- a n o t h e r r e v i e w of the same t h i n g that he 14 id, and tried to adapt to the p r o b l e m s that we 1 5 1 6 When did you do that? 17 One of my a s s i g n m e n t s , after I was hired. 18 It w o u l d be s o m e t i m e b e t w e e n 1960 and 1962? 19 k. Yes. 20 . Do you recall how much money was r e q u i r e d , or 21 i h a t the r e c o m m e n d e d f i g u r e was to i m p l e m e n t the p r o g r a m s 22 :h a t Dr. F i r s t m a d e ? 23 \. I can only guess - 24 . We don't want you to guess. Do you have any 25 3 r e s nt r e c o l l e c t i o n of t h a t ? Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000744 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 1 46 2 A. I'd say thirty thousand dollars, something 3 likethat. 4 Q. 0 kay . 5 In 1 9 6 0 d o l l a r s a p p r o x i m a t e l y ? 6 A. In 1 96 0 , dollars, yes. 7 MR. GUSKY: That's all I have, sir, 8 thank you. 9 MR. MENDELOW: I have no questions, 1 0 thank you. 11 BY MR . M A S O N : 12 Q . 13 I have some questions, sir. Mr. H o r o w i t z , prior to coming to 14 w o r k for K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n in May of 1 9 6 0 , did you 15 have any knowledge concerning any p o ss ible hazards 1 6 c o n n e c t e d with e x p o s u r e to a s b e stos? 17 A. Y e s , I did. 18 Q. Where did you acquire that knowledge? 19 A. From my t r a i n i n g as an i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t 20 for the State of New York. 21 Q. And, when did you acquire that knowledge? 22 A. Well, you don't - - it's d i f f i c u l t to put a 23 d a t e on it. but -- 24 Q. 25 A. How about a decade? Oh , decade, was d e f i n i t e l y within the first year Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000745 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 147 2 of my w o r k i n g with the D i v i s i o n o f I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n e . 3 Q. And, what year was that? 4 A. 5 Q. Which was 1947. A n d , w h a t k n o w l e d g e did you a c q u i r e at that 6 time? 7 A. The knowledge I acqui red at the time and which I 8 retai ned t hroughout my working time , until I joined 9 Keasbey-Matti son, was that asbestosis was a 1 0 p n e u m o c o n i o s i s d i s e a s e , or a d i s e a s e caused by dust 11 in the L u n g s . And t h a t it had a t h r e s h o l d Limit 1 2 of about five million particles per cubic foot, which 13 m a d e it a p p r o x i m a t e l y as t o x i c as s i l i c a at the 14 time. 1 5 Q. And, that was the information you brought with 16 you, w h e n you w ere e m p l o y e d -- 17 A . Y e s , it was. 18 Q. -- with Keasbey and Matt ison? 1 9 A. 20 Q. Yes, it was. No one t h e r e told you this, you a l r e a d y knew 21 t h a t ? 22 A. No one where told me? 23 Q. 24 A. At K e a s b e y - M a t t i son. They didn't have'to tell me that, right, 25 a. Okay. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000746 1 Leon H o r o w it z - Cross 148 2 Now, who, when you first started your 3 imp l o y m e n t at K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n in May of 1960, who was 4 /our boss? 5 \. Mr. Spedding. 6 And, he was the one who told you what to do, 7 <hat d u t i e s to p e r f o r m ? 8 ^ He h i r e d me in my t e c h n i c a l i n t e r v i e w with 9 lim, for p u r p o s e s of dust control e n g i n e e r i n g . 1 0 1. Well, did he leave how you p e r f o r m e d these 11 iuties up to y o u r d i s c r e t i o n , or w o u l d you c h e c k with 1 2 iim, and do w h a t he told you? 13 >. Well, I had shown him what I did b e f o r e as a 14 : o n s u l t a n t , as well as my p r e v i o u s e x p e r i e n c e . A n d he 1 5 aw some of my plans, and he wanted me to do the same 1 6 hing. And I w o u l d get his a p p r o v a l on any plans. He 17 as C h i e f E n g i n e e r . So, any d e s i g n I m a d e , he w o u l d 18 pp rove . 19 . These were plans for what? 20 . Design of indu s t r i a l exhaust systems, the 21 e m o v a l of d u s t , gas or f u m e s , m o s t l y dust. 22 . Some kind of m e c h a n i c a l e q u i pment that either 23 u r c h a s e d or had m a d e ? 24 . s T h e r e is -- t h e r e ' s no or p r a c t i c a l l y no e q u i p - 25 ent t h a t you c o u l d buy and just put it and work. You Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000747 1 Leon H o ro w it z Cross 149 2 have to d e s i g n it aro u n d the job, and you have to 3 d e s i g n hoods, you have to d e s i g n duct work, you have 4 to d e s i g n dust c o l l e c t o r s , you have to get c o n t r a c t o r s 5 in, you have to d e s i g n f o o t i n g s for it, and stuff like 6 that. So, my job was designing it, p u r c h a s i n g it, and 7 g e t t i n g it d o n e , and i n s t a l l i n g it. 8 Q. Okay. 9 Well, now, as I u n d e r s t a n d it, you 1 0 testified earlier that you would design this exhaust 11 s y s t e m for i n d i v i d u a l m a c h i n e s ? 12 A . Yes. 13 Q. Did you design one, generally, for the general 14 area -- a r e a in a b u i l d i n g , or w e r e you just l i m i t e d 1 5 -- did you just limit y o u r s e l f to i n d i v i d u a l m a c h i n e s ? 16 A. Mostly, I would use my industrial hygiene 17 s k i l l s , if you want to call it t h a t , to d e t e r m i n e 18 w h e r e t h e r e was a n e e d , and w h e r e t h e r e was a n e e d , 19 I w o u l d r e c o m m e n d to the c o m p a n y the n e e d and g i v e 20 them an e s t i m a t e of the cost, and then d e s i g n for 21 p i c k i n g up the d u s t , r i g h t at the m a c h i n e , and 22 c o n v e y i n g it to a d u s t c o l l e c t o r , and t h e n d i s c h a r g i n g 23 the c l e a n air o u t s i d e . T h a t was my c o m p l e t e 24 f u n c t i o n . 25 Q . Okay. Knipes-Conen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000748 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 150 2 How did you determine where there was 3 a need, through these dust counts that you took? 4 A. Through the dust counts, yes. 5 Q. And, once you -- I gather you would d e t e r m i n e 6 that t h e r e was a n e e d , if you took dust c o u n t s w h i c h 7 e x c e e d e d the then threshold limits; is that right? 8 A. Exactly. 9 Q. Then, on your own, you would go ahead and 10 design -- 11 A . No, no, no, no, I would have to express that 12 need or show -- tell the management through Spedding, 13 t h a t t h e r e was a n e e d , and t h e n t h e y had to m a k e a 14 d e t e r m i n a t i o n , and g i v e , an e s t i m a t e of the c o s t , 15 and th e y w o u l d have to make a d e t e r m i n a t i o n w h e t h e r to 16 go a h e a d or not. 17 Q. Well, take the -- by the way, do you recall when 18 the last day w a s , or the m o n t h , at l e a s t , that you w o r k e d 19 w i t h K e a s b e y - M a t t i son, and w h e n you s t a r t e d for 20 C e r t a i n t e e d ? I don't think you had t e s t i f i e d to that 21 b e f o r e . 22 A. I t h i n k it was J u n e of '62, a n y w h e r e b e t w e e n 23 A p r i l a n d J u n e of '62. 24 Okay. 25 Well, now, did you first determine need Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000749 1 Leon H o row itz Cross 151 2 by s a m p l i n g the dust at v a r i o u s m a c h i n e s . Did you 3 c h e c k all the m a c h i n e s in all the p l a n t s in A m b l e r ? 4 A. No, th e r e was no need to -- part of the 5 t e c h n i q u e is u s i n g v i s u a l o b s e r v a t i o n s , a n d m a k i n g a 6 determination where you needed more specific information 7 which you couldn't depend on, a subjective visual 8 opinion, and then you would take air samples, and then 9 the air samples would help you determine the need. 10 Q. 11 Okay. Are you t e l l i n g us that f i r s t you 12 w o u l d look at an o p e r a t i o n at a p a r t i c u l a r m a c h i n e , 13 and i f ' y o u v i s u a l l y o b s e r v e d d ust, that you w o u l d t h e n , 14 t e s t it? 1 5 A. From the industrial hygiene point of view, yes, 16 very o f t e n , t h o u g h , you n e e d e d dust c o l l e c t i n g , just 17 for the fact that t h e y w e r e p r o d u c i n g so m u c h dust . 18 t h a t t h e y had to c a r r y it a w a y f r o m the m a c h i n e , o t h e r 19 w i s e , it w o u l d i n t e r f e r w i t h the job. So, t h e r e were 20 two -- two m o t i v a t i o n s to d e s i g n i n g i n d u s t r i a l e x h a u s t 21 s y s t e m s . 22 Q . Okay. 23 Now, did you design exhaust systems 24 for e x i s t i n g m a c h i n e s , as well as any new m a c h i n e s ? 25 A . Yes. Kni^pes'-Cohen A'ssociates Castleman.CERT000750 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 152 2 And, were your plans approved for any 3 x i s t i ng m a c h i n e s ? 4 Yes. 5 Were your plans ever approved for new machines? 6 Yes, they were. In a new p l a n t , I d e s i g n e d 7 ili th e e x h a u s t s y s t e m s for the new p l a n t , it was on 8 >a p e r , b e f o r e the p l a n t e v e n went in. 9 MR. SHEIN: I have to o b j e c t to this 1 0 t e s t i m o n y , u n l e s s it p e r t a i n s to m a c h i n e s that 11 were used by my client, Mel v i n T i m b e r s . 12 Y MR. M A S O N : 13 . All right, let's goback, youm entioned something 14 bout a new plant. 15 . 16 . Yes. What plant was that? 17 . Well, H i l l s b o r o was a new plant, and so was 18 i v e r s i d e . 19 . 20 Okay. Let ' s fo c u s on the pl a n t at A m b l e r , ,21 here w e r e no new plants for w h i c h you d e s i g n e d e x h a u s t 22 y s t e m s t h e r e , in A m b l e r , w e r e t h e r e ? 23 . No, but new processes, yes. 24 . Okay. 25 Do you r e m e m b e r in which p l a n t s you Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000751 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 1 53 2 d e s i g n e d e x h a u s t s y s t e m s or new e x h aust s y s t e m s for old, 3 existing machines? 4 A. Yes, plant & was one of them. 5 Q. Any other plants? 6 A. You m e a n in the A m b l e r area? 7 Q. Yes, onl y in the A m b l e r area. 8 A. Yes, in p l a n t 4,. the i n s u l a t i o n a r e a . P l a n t 1 9 w h e n it was a s h i n g l e p l a n t , but that w a s n ' t d u s t , 1 0 it had to do w i t h v a p o r s and p a i n t . 11 Q . Okay. 12 How ab o u t new m a c h i n e s , in which 13 p l a n t s in the A m b l e r a r e a -- 14 A . In plant 8 , new ma c h i n e s . 1 5 Q. Any o t h e r p l a n t s in the A m b l e r area for new 16 m a c h i n e s ? 17 A . T h e y d i d n ' t put any n e w m a c h i n e s in p l a n t 4, 18 w h i l e I was t h e r e . 19 a . 20 A . How a b o u t 1? P l a n t 1, as I i n d i c a t e d b e f o r e , was shut d o w n 21 w i t h i n a y e a r , but t h e r e w e r e new p r o c e s s e s that I 22 e s i g n e d an e x h a u s t s y s t e m for, w h i c h was a p a i n t , they 23 ere p a i n t i n g s h i n g l e s , t h i n g s like that. 24 a . Okay. 25 Now, I think you testified that from Knipes-C ohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000752 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 154 2 your point of view, the primary purpose was to get 3 e x h a u s t s y s t e m s i n s t a l l e d as sort of the best way to 4 c o n t r o l d u s t ; is that w h a t you t e s t i f i e d ? 5 A. Well, I was hired as a Dust Control E n g i n e e r , 6 to use that e n g i n e e r i n g method for reducing the 7 dust c r e a t e d at the jobs , at the p a r t i c u l a r m a c h i n e s , 8 that 1s right 9 Q. And , to r e d u c e it to the t h r e s h o l d l i m i t s that 1O were allowed? 11 A. Definitely, that' s the p u r p o s e . 12 a. And, what did you mean that this was the 13 p r i m a r y c o n t r o l ? 14 A. As o p p o s e d to a s e c o n d a r y c o n t r o l of a 1 5 r e s p i r a t o r . In o t h e r w o r d s , you can p r e v e n t the 1 6 man -- the employee, from breathing a dust, harmful 17 d u s t , by m a n y w a y s . You can put him a m i l e a w a y and 1 8 he w o n 't be b r e a t h i n g it. 1 9 MR. COHEN: I'm going to obj e c t to 20 that speculation. 21 THE W I T N E S S : That was an e x a m p l e . 22 In other words, d i s t a n c e could do it. You 23 c o u l d do it by e n c l o s i n g the man. You c o u l d 24 do it by e n c l o s i n g the o p e r a t i o n . But, in o r d e r 25 to continue an o p e r a t i o n the way you like to, and Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000753 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 155 2 the p r o c e s s to c o n t i n u e , Local e x h a u s t 3 v e n t i l a t i o n is one of the best e n g i n e e r i n g 4 methods. 5 BY MR. MASON: 6 Q- Is t h e r e any b e t t e r m e t h o d that you k n o w of? 7 A. d e p e n d s on your p a r a m e t e r s . If you want to 8 c o n t i n u e w o r k i n g with the m a t e r i a l or not, if you 9 can f i n d a s u b s t i t u t e that is not as h a z a r d o u s , let's 1 0 say, t h a t m i g h t be a b e t t e r m e t h o d . So, b e t t e r is a 11 m a t t e r of d e g r e e . 12 Q . Okay. 13 But, now -- so that when you use the 14 t e r m , p r i m a r y for dust c o n t r o l , are you u s i n g it in 15 r e l a t i o n s h i p to exhaust systems? 16 A. I'm u s i n g it in r e l a t i o n s h i p to the best 17 e n g i n e e r i n g m e t h o d a v a i l a b l e a c c o r d i n g to my k n o w l e d g e , 18 yes. 19 Q And, what did you mean, I think when you 20 d e s c r i b e d the use of r e s p i r a t o r s as a s e c o n d a r y 21 m e t h o d ? 22 A. It is -- you c a n ' t have m u c h c o n f i d e n c e in the 23 use of r e s p i r a t o r s to p r o t e c t a -- an e m p l o y e e , from 24 b r e a t h i n g m a t e r i a l . 25 Q* Why c o u l d n ' t you be c o n f i d e n t about that? Knip es-Cohen Associates Cast|eman.CERT000754 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 156 2 B e c a u s e a fit -- b e c a u s e of 3 i. What do you mean by fit? 4 ^. Well, sometimes, they don't fit properly. 5 o, t h e r e f o r e , t h e r e is p l e n t y o f s p a c e for the m a t e r i a l 6 :o get in. T h e y p l u g up. T h e y get d i r t y . T h e r e are 7 iany, many features about respirators that you - 8 that no i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t that I know of, use it 9 as a p r i m a r y m e t h o d , e x c e p t in areas where you can't 10 help it. You can't put an exhaust syst e m onto a 11 m a i n t e n a n c e m a n w h e n he g o e s from one m a c h i n e to 12 a n o t h e r and cr a w l s all over it. A r e s p i r a t o r f u n c t i o n s 13 as a f a i r m e t h o d of r e d u c i n g the a m o u n t of dust he 14 m i g h t g e t . 15 Q . Okay. 16 A. So, therefore, it's not a primary method. 17 Q . A n d , yet, I f o r g e t w h e t h e r it was 1 9 6 0 or 18 1 9 6 1 , y o u p r e p a r e d a m e m o r a n d u m that s t a t e d that it 19 was m a n d a t o r y for an e m p l o y e e to wear r e s p i r a t o r s 20 at c e r t a i n s t a t i o n s ; did you not? 21 A. Yeah, the count was, as you n o t i c e , with the 22 a d d i t i o n I just m e n t i o n e d , w h e r e the e x p o s u r e was 23 g r e a t e r t h a n the t h r e s h o l d l imit, and e n g i n e e r i n g 24 m e t h o d s had not b e e n u s e d to r e d u c e it yet, or w h e r e 25 t h e y c o u l d n ' t be u s e d , t h e n a r e s p i r a t o r s h o u l d be u s e d , K nipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000755 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 157 2 and a p r o p e r r e s p i r a t o r s h o u l d be used. 3 Q. Let's explore that a little bit. Were there 4 m a c h i n e s w h e r e you e i t h e r did not, or co u l d n o t , t h r o u g h 5 the d e s i g n of an exhaust system, reduce the dust levels 6 to the -- below the t h r e s h o l d values? 7 A. There are areas where people work, where you 8 c o u l d n ' t put an e n g i n e e r i n g or e x h a u s t s y s t e m t o 9 it b e l o w the level. T h e r e are c e r t a i n a r e a s , for 1 0 instance, the maintenance man going into a dust 11 c o l l e c t o r to c l e a n it. It's i m p o s s i b l e to do 1 2 any th in g about that, except for, what I would call, 13 very p o s i t i v e r e s p i r a t o r , w h i c h w o u l d mean a h e lm e t 14 with ai r i n t r o d u c e d to the h e l m e t , so that n o dust 15 could get in while it's flowing out. Yes, the re are 16 c e r t a in a r e a s , yes. 17 Q. I can u n d e r s t a n d a dust c o l l e c t o r is d e s i g n e d 18 to c o l l e c t d u s t - 19 A. 20 Q. Yeah,right. so you c a n ' t keep dust out of it - 21 A . Right. ,, 22 Q. -- the idea is to get dust into it; r i g h t ? 23 A. Most engineering -- 24 Q. Bearwithme. 25 A. Yes. Kni'pes-Coh! en Associates Castleman.CERT000756 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 158 2 Q. And there, you would require a man to wear a 3 r e s p i r a t o r , when he goes into the dust c o l l e c t o r . 4 A. Right. 5 Q. Were there other,let's say machines, where 6 employees worked, aside from dust collectors, where 7 you c o u l d not r e d u c e the dust c o u n t by a p p r o p r i a t e 8 design of exhaust systems that you can remember? 9 A. No, if s u f f i c i e n t m o n e y is put into it, you 1 0 can d e s i g n p r e t t y well a m a c h i n e that will r e d u c e it 11 to b e l o w the level. 12 Q . Okay. 13 W e l l , now, was it yourr e s p o n s i b i l i t y 14 to s e e k out t h e s e a r e a s and d e s i g n p l a n s for e x h a u s t 1 5 s y s t e m s to r e d u c e the dust leve Is t h e r e ? 1 6 A. My r e s p o n s i b i l i t y was to seek out those areas 17 and r e p o r t t h e m to m a n a g e m e n t . a n d m a k e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s 18 and if t h e y f o l l o w e d it, t h e n I was the one who d e s i g n e d 19 the equipment, yes. 20 Q . 21 0kay . Well, now, I think you testified 22 that in S e p t e m b e r of 1 9 6 0 , y o u a t t e n d e d a m e e t i n g 23 w i t h a Dr. K n o x . 24 A . Yes. 25 Q . I b e l i e v e you t e s t i f i e d that he ' ~~ ' Knipes-Cohen Associates informed you CaStleman.CERT000757 1 Leon H o ro w it z - C r o s s 159 2 nd the p e o p l e who were t here/ e ither that th e r e was 3 n asso c i a t i o n between asbestos and cancer/ or I'm 4 ot sure w h e t h e r you said there was a s u s p e c t e d 5 ssocia t i o n , which was it? 6. I t h i n k it was v e r y p o s i t i v e that t h e r e was an 7 ssoci ation. 8. Okay. 9 Now, that -- and I think you said 1 0 he w o r d m e s o t h e l i o m a came up at that time? 11 . That's right. 12 . And/ that was the first time you had ever 13 e a r d t h a t w o r d ? 14 . That'strue. 15 . And/ I think you also said testified that - 16 think you used the word/ spur on our e f f o r t s to 17 o n t r o l d u s t . 18 . Well/ the e s t a b l i s h m e n t of the Loss Control 19 o m m i t t e e , and the d i r e c t i o n that I got f r o m m a n a g e m e n t 20 o u l d fall into that c a t e g o r y of s p u r r i n g on the -- 21 : b e l i e v e so. 22 1. W e l l / the s p u r r i n g on, did it take p l a c e in any 23 ay b e s i d e s the f o r m a t i o n of this Loss C o n t r o l 24 ;o m mi t t e e ? 25 Well/ the m a n d a t e that what came out of the Loss Knipes-Cohen Associates castieman.GtKiuuu/b8 1 Leon H o r o w it z Cross 1 60 2 C o n t r o l C o m m i t t e e s h o u l d be a d h e r e d to by -- by all 3 the m a n a g e r s or the d i r e c t o r s of the plants, yes. But, 4 i t w a s n ' t a th i n g that, g u n g - h o , let 's stop e v e r y t h i n g 5 and o n l y do t h i s , it was an o n - g o i n g type of t h i n g . 6 Q. Well, then how was there any spurring on, I 7 don 1t follow you? 8 A. You were the one that brought the spurring on, 9 I don't remember saying - 10 Q. Yeah, I wrote that down* 11 A. I wrote -- said, spurring on? 12 Q. Yes, sir. 13 A. We l l , if I did, I didn't mean any i m m e d i a c y . 14 In o t h e r w o r d s , t o m o r r o w , let's drop e v e r y t h i n g . It 1 5 was the fact that it n e v e r e x i s t e d b e f o r e a Loss 1 6 Cont r o l C o m m i t t e e , and for the p u r p o s e s of r e d u c i n g 17 d u s t e x p o s u r e , a n d nou t h e r e was one. And it was a 18 c o n t i n u i n g t h i n g . 19 Q. W e l l , how did that d i f f e r in any way from the 20 fact that you were given the r e s p o n sibility, when you 21 were f i r s t h i r e d , to c o n t r o l d u s t ? 22 A. Well, the period between the time I was hired, 23 and the t i m e of t h i s , was a very short p e r i o d . It was 24 w i t h i n six m o n t h s . 25 Q. I know t h a t , but how did it d i f f e r in any way Knip es-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000759 1 Leon H o ro w it z - Cross 161 2 from the fact that you were hired to c o n t r o l dust? 3 A. I t h i n k it d i f f e r e d by the fact that now it 4 was a m a n a g e m e n t d i r e c t i v e to e v e r y b o d y that that a 5 Loss Control Committee existed, that - - 6 THE COURT R E P O R T E R : I'm sorry,, the 7 what committee? 8 THE WITNESS: The Loss Control 9 Committee existed, and the company was going 1 0 to m a k e e f f o r t s to r e d u c e the e x p o s u r e . It was 11 an a w a r e n e s s -- more, greater awar e n e s s . 12 F r a nkly, there may have been an a w a r e n e s s before 13 that, and that's why they hired me. I don't 1 4 know. 1 5 MR. MASON: Okay. 16 BY M R . M A S O N : 17 Q. W e l l , now, as a result of this i n f o r m a t i o n , you 18 o b t a i n e d a b o u t m e s o t h e l i o m a and c a n c e r , did you go out 19 and a c q u i r e any new k n o w l e d g e that you n e e d e d to 20 d e s i g n your dust c o n trol s y s tem? 21 A. There was no new knowledge needed. The acceptance 22 of -- of c a n c e r and m e s o t h e l i o m a , in a s s o c i a t i o n with 23 a s b e s t o s was not t a k e n v e r b a t i m , m e r e l y b e c a u s e a Dr. s 24 K n o x or a Dr. S e l i k o f f or a n y b o d y said t h e r e was. The 25 w h o l e c o m m u n i t y , i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n e c o m m u n i t y , or t e c h Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Cast|eman.CERT0'0;07'60----- 1 Leon H o r o w it z Cross 162 2 nical community, scientific c o m m u n i t y , s a i d , well, you 3 know, now, there are suspicions, Let's do further 4 s t u d i e s , Let's f i n d p r o o f . It w a s n ' t an i m m e d i a t e type 5 3f thin g . 6 MR. SHEIN: Object to the q u e s t i o n 7 and a n s w e r as to what the c o m m u n i t y feLt or 8 thought. There has been no f o u n d a t i o n Laid 9 for that. And, it's hearsay. 1 0 THE WITNESS: Did I r e s p o n d to your 11 question? I may have digressed. 12 MR . LOC KS : And - 13 MR. MASON: 14 . I think my basic question was, did you feeL the 15 eed to go out and acquire any more k n o w l e d g e about 1 6 hat you wer e d o i n g in Light of the fact that you had 17 ow h e a r d the w o r d , m e s o t h e l i o m a , and now h e a r d a bout 18 he p o s s i b l e c o n n e c t i o n b e t w e e n a s b e s t o s and c a n c e r ? 19 T h e r e was no need to get any m o r e s k i l l s in the 20 e s i g n of i n d u s t r i a l e x h a u s t systems. 21 . You a l r e a d y had, as far as you were c o n c e r n e d , 22 uffi c i e n t s k i l l s -- 23 Yes. 24 ~ in d e s i g n i n g industrial dust control systems -- 25 . Right. ' ~ K nipes-C ohen A ssociates ------- Castleman.CERT000701-- 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - Cross 3 2 t0 keeP dust dwn wherever the dust exceeded 3 allowable limits? 4 l- N m a t t e r w h e t h e r it c a u s e d asbestosis or c a n c e r , 5 here's a large question about mesothelioma. 6. And, I think one of your memos talks about 7 n f o r m i n g the f o r e m a n a b o u t h a z a r d s ; d o e s it 8 ot ? 9. Y e s , it does. 1 0 Do you know w h e t h e r that was a c t u a l l y 11 n n p ? 1 2 No, I do not. 13 Now, w h o s e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y was it to do 14 at i n f o r m i n g ? 1 5 My d i r e c t i o n was to the P l a n t M a n a g e r , it was 16 s responsibility. 17 W h o s e idea was it to m a k e the P l a n t M a n a g e r 18 r e s p o n s i b l e to do t h a t , was that y o u r s ? 19 ^ ^ ^ d i r e c t i o n was to make these memos and send 20 it to the P l a n t M a n a g e r , so it was Mr. S p e d d i n g , my 21 b o s s e s ' d i r e c t i o n . 22 Q * W e l l , d i d y o u h a v e any f e e l i n g of c o n c e r n at 23 that t i m e t h a t , w e l l , m a y b e not t e l l i n g the right 24 p e o p l e ? " 25 A. It was out of my r e s p o n s i b i l i t y Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000762 1 2 Q` Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 1 64 N o ' * 1m talking about whether you, yourself, 3 had any concern that maybe you weren't telling the 4 right people? 5 A` 1 had Lts of c o n c e r n s , c o n cerns of poor people 6 living in La t i n A m e r i c a , but - - 7 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, 8 concerns of -- 9 TH E W I T N E S S : Of poor p e o p l e l i v i n g in 1 0 Latin A m e r i c a , but this was not my function. 11 So, I don't know whether concerns en t e r e d my 12 function. I was doing my job, what I was hired 13 for. 14 BY M R . M A S O N : 15 Q* Well, did you have any discussion with Mr. 1 6 S p e d d i n g as to whom s h o u l d be gi v e n this i n f o r m a t i o n ? 17 A That was his responsibility, not mine. 18 Q . Okay. 1 9 So, he told you, tell the Plant 20 M a n a g e r s to tell the f o r e m e n ? 21 A * R i g h t , and he d i d n ' t tell me to f o l l o w it up. 22 <3. Okay. 23 A * -L o n l y f o l l o w e d it up in the n o r m a l c o u r s e of 24 e v e n t s . If I h a p p e n e d to see it w a s n ' t d o n e , then I 25 w o u l d n o t i f y the P l a n t M a n a g e r s . ~~ ~ ~ Castleman.CERT000763 Knip es-Cohen Associates 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 165 2 * Was there ever any.discuss ion why you were not 3 relling the employees directly? 4 ^ 5 * 6 i. it was not my p r o v i n c e to d i s c u s s it w i t h the - i mean, was there any such discussion? There was no discussion. There was no 7 liscussion to tell them, and there was no d i s c u s s i o n 8 o t ,to tell them. 9. There's been much talk about warnings being 1 0 i v e n , a b o u t the h a z a r d s of a s b e s t o s . Did you, at any 11 i me, f e e l that you r e q u i r e d any -- any s u c h w a r n i n g s ? 1 2 MR. LOCKS: I o bject to the form of 13 the question. The c h a r a c t e r i z a t i o n of whatever 14 y o u ' r e t a l k i n g a b o u t is much d i s c u s s i o n . I 15 d o n ' t r e m e m b e r a s i n g l e , s o l i t a r y p i e c e of 16 t e s t i m o n y u s i n g that w o r d , Mr.. M a s o n . 17 MR. MASON: Yes, I think -- 18 MR. B R O M B E R G : I join in Mr. L o c k s ' 1 9 objection. 20 THE WITNESS: I further -- 21 MR. M ASON: Wait a m i n u t e , let me 22 a n s w e r to that, beca u s e I think this witness 23 t e s t i f i e d e a r l i e r that he never asked any 24 supplier about warnings. 25 MR. LOCKS: I stand corrected. Knipes-Cohen Associates Gastleman.ctKiuuu/04 1 Leon H o row itz Cross 1 66 2 MR. SHEIN: I o b j e c t to the q u e s t i o n 3 as to what he required,, b e c a u s e w a r n i n g s are 4 questions of law, and not of the i n d i v i d u a l . 5 MR . B R O M B E R G : I join in that 6 objection, too. 7 MR. MASON: Well, I would respond 8 to that by saying, I think warnings are 9 mixed q u e s t i o n s of law and fact. And w h ether 1 0 w a r n i n g s w e r e ' n e c e s s a r y is in part a fact. 11 MR. SHEIN: I don't agree with that. 12 MR. MASON: Of course not, but 13 that's what makes lawsuits. 14 BY M R . M A S O N : 15 Q D id yu believe that you needed any warnings 1 6 about the hazards of asbes t o s , and working with 17 a s b e s t o s ? 18 MR. LOCKS: Are you r e f e r r i n g to him, 19 h i m s e l f , Mr. Mason'? 20 MR. MASON: Yes, sir, only him, 21 himself. 22 THE W I T N E S S : The a s b e s t o s at the 23 t ime I s t a r t e d un t i l we, were c o n v i n c e d that 24 there was a cancer hazard, was not a special 2 5 hazard any more than the other exposures they ~ Kni^pes-Cohen A ssociate~s castieman.CERT000765 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 167 2 had. It h a p p e n s that this c o m p a n y d i d m o r e 3 asbestos than Let's say silica exposure, but 4 we had noise e x p o s u r e , we had talc e x p o s u r e , 5 mica e x p o s u r e . And I had no d i r e c t i o n to 6 c o m m u n i c a t e directly with the employee, nor did 7 I feel that I w o u l d long have that job if I went 8 out of my way without such d i r e c t i o n , to do so, 9 SO I did not do so. 1 0 BY MR . M A S O N : 11 Q . I'm talking that wasn't responsive, sir. 12 MR. MASON: I move to strike that. 13 BY MR ,. M A S O N : 14 Q. I'm talking about -- 1 5 MR. BRUCH: I move to strike the last 16 answer,also. 17 BY MR . M A S O N : 18 Q. -- what -- what you -- I'll start over 19 a g a i n . 20 Did you feel that you, yourself, 21 n e e d e d any any additional warnings from anyone 22 a b o u t t h e h a z a r d s of a s b e s t o s or -- 23 MR. BRUCH: Same objection. 24 BY MR . M A S O N : " 25 9. -- were you satisfied that you knew that there ^ i : Castleman.CERT000766 Knipes-Cohen Associates 1 Leon H o r o w it z - Cross 168 2 were such hazards? 3 A* I was as k n o w l e d g e a b l e , I feel, as a nybody 4 else in my area of e x p e r t i s e , about the hazards 5 of a s b e s t o s . The k n owledge, which came, let's say 6 slo w l y to me, also came slowly to the rest of the 7 community-- 8 MR. COHEN: I'm going to object 9 to any c h a r a c t e r i z a t i o n of - 10 MR. BROMBERG: Let's let him finish 11 his answer. 12 MR.COHEN: Goahead. 1 3 THE WITNESS: Well, that's practically 14 f i n i s h e d . And I felt that I knew as much about 1 5 asb e s t o s ' as the next guy. 16 MR . COHEN: I'm going to object t 0 17 any s t a t e m e n t as to what the " c o m m u n i t y " had 18 any k n o w l e d g e or a w a r e n e s s of, at any p a r t i c u l a r 1 9 time. It ca l ls fo r -- 20 MR. SHEIN: I join in that o b j e c t i o n . 21 MR. MASON: That's all I have. 22 MR. BROMBERG: I have one or two 23 q u e s t i o n s to pursue cross e x a m i n a t i o n -- 24 THE WITNESS: Your microphone. 25 THE COURT REPORTER: I have one or two Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.ctKiuuu/6 / 1 Leon H o r o w it z Cross 1 69 2 questions 3 MR. BROMBERG: -- since I last 4 spoketo -- i 5 THE COURT REPORTER: I didn't 6 hear you. 7 MR. BROMBERG: I have one or two 8 q u e s t i o n s that relate to m a t ters that have 9 been asked by others, after I Last q u e s t i o n e d 1 0 the witness. 11 BY MR. B R O M B E R G : 12 * After Certainteed -- after you went with 13 C e r t a i n t e e d , and t h e y did not b e l o n g to the ATI, 14 you i n d i c a t e d you went to o n l y two m e e t i n g s with 15 A T I ? 1 6 A. Of the ATI, yes. 17 Q . Okay. 18 * Th e n , did you go to NIMA m e e t i n g s ? 19 A Yes, I did. 20 Q . And, what's NIMA? 21 A- N I M A is the N a t i o n a l I n s u l a t i o n M a n u f a c t u r e r s 22 A s s o c i a t i o n . 23 Q . 0 kay . 24 Was that an o r g a n i z a t i o n that likewise 25 had i n t e r e s t in the d a n g e r s of w o r k i n g with a s b e s t o s ? Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000768 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - Cross 170 2 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 3 MR. LOCKS: I didn't hear it, who 4 made an objection? 5 THE W I T N E S S : Did s o m e o n e want to 6 repeat the question, or - - 7 MR. B R O M B E R G : If you h e a r d the 8 question, that's all that matters. 9 THE WITNESS: I was -- I represented 1 0 the co m p a n y on a C o m m i t t e e , and I don't ex a c t l y 11 r e c a l l w h e t h e r it was c a l l e d an Air H y g i e n e 12 C o m m i t t e e or an E n g i n e e r i n g S u b c o m m i t t e e , but 13 our -- we directed our a t t e n t i o n to the hazards 14 of i n s u l a t i o n m a t e r i a l , of which a s b e s t o s was 1 5 included. ' 1 6 BY MR. BROMBERG: 17 Q . In fact, you w o r k e d on the p r e p a r a t i o n of 18 c e r t a i n b r o c h u r e s in that r e g a r d ; d i d n ' t y o u ? 1 9 A. Yes, w e d id. 20 0. You, s p e c i f i c a l l y , did you work on such 21 b r o c h u r e s ? 22 A . Yes. 23 Q. Did you ever work with a man named John 24 V i b e r b e r g o n t h a t ? 25 A. Yes, I did. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000769 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 171 2 J. And, others? 3 A. Yes. 4 a. Let's go back to E x h ibit 6 , about which you 5 iere q u e s t i o n e d , a f t e r I Last had an o p p o r t u n i t y to 6 >p e a to you. 7 8 ^. Would you turn to that, p l e a s e ? I have it now. 9 > In that p a r a g r a p h one, you r e f e r r e d to, where 1 0 ISM was w r i t t e n in in 1 9 6 0 , you d r e w a line t h r o u g h 11 ISM and CPC was w r i t t e n a b o v e it; c o r r e c t ? 12 i. That's true. 13 . And, then -- that occurred when, what year? 14 . 15 . When I made a change to CPC? Right. Would that have been -- well -- 16 . I w o u l d h ave to say '62, '63, but I have no 17 n d i c a t i o n t h a t I did that in '62, '63. 18 . Well -- 1 9 So, I don't know. 20 All right. . 21 22 il '67 -- Is it p o s s i b l e that it w a s n ' t done 23 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 24 MR. BROMBERG: 25 -- w h e n it was r e - i s s u e d ? Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000770 1 Leon H o ro w it z - Cross 1 72 2 MR. B R U C H : O b j e c t i o n , a n y t h i n g is 3 possible. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't think so, 5 be c a u s e we -- we a c q u i r e d new plants, and the 6 same i n formation was -- that is, I a c q u i r e d new 7 plants under C ertain teed, roofing p l a n t s and 8 others, and I believe that the same information 9 was workable for them. So, I believe all I did 10 was c h a n g e K&M to CPC at the time. 11 BY M R . B R O M B E R G : 12 T h e w o r d s , w h e r e dust c o n t r o l is not s u f f i c i e n t 13 to m a i n t a i n a i r b o r n e dust c o n c e n t r a t i o n s , b e l o w 14 m a x i m u m p e r m i s s i b l e l i m i t s , w e r e p r o b a b l y a d d e d in 15 67 -- 16 A . That's right. 17 Q. -- were they not? 18 A . T h a t ' s true. 19 Q. So, that, from the t ime you first i s s u e d this 20 in 1960, up t h r o u g h 1967, t h e memo that you i s s u e d 21 t 0 P l a n t M a n a g e r s said in pa r a g r a p h one the f o l l o w i n g : 22 dust r e s p i r a t o r s must be use d by CPC or K&M, whi chev e r 23 was the case at the t i m e / pe r s o n n e l at all, u n d e r l i n e d , 24 o p e r a t i o n s i n v o l v i n g the use of s i l i c a , c e m e n t , m i c a , 25 talc and a s b e s t o s dust. Kni.pes-Cohen Associates Castleman.ctRiuuum 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 1 73 2 ^ That's true, 3 ^ So, 'f r t h o s e s e v e n y e a r s , if I w e r e a P l a n t 4 lanager l e t ' s - s a y in Santa C lara, C a l i f o r n i a , what 5 . w o u l d have b e l i e v e d from my indu s t r i a l h ygiene -- 6 lygiene e x p e r t in the I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n e D e p a r t m e n t , 7 ias t h a t in my p l a n t , all CPC p e r s o n n e l w o u l d h a v e to 8 ise r e s p i r a t o r s so long as they were i n v o l v e d in 9 ny o p e r a t i o n that i n v o l v e d the use of e i t h e r s i l i c a 1 O o r talc or a s b e s t o s dust? 11 MR . COHEN: Objection - - 12 MR . BRUCH: Objection. 13 MR . COHEN: - - t h e question 14 fact not in e v i d e n c e , that is, a, a n y o n e who 1 5 is a P l a n t M a n a g e r , a n y w h e r e , was even aware 16 of that m e morandum, let alone enforced its 17 p r o v i s i o n s to those that were o s tensibly 18 d i r e c t e d to wear r e s pirators. 19 Y MR . B R O M B E R G : 20 . Would you ask -- would you answer this question 21 i r s t , a n d t h e n w e ' l l get to that p r o b l e m . 22 Yes, probably a mistake on my part -- 23 . R e g a r d l e s s of w h e t h e r it was a m i s t a k e on your 24 art or not - 25 Let me try to d e f i n e , to me it was an u n d e r - Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000772 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 174 2 standing that what I meant was if they were over the 3 : h r e s h o l d Limit. And, o b v i o u s l y , it c a m e to Light 4 hat not everybody understood that, and that's why I 5 dded the statement. 6. I see. 7 In o t h e r w o r d s , it was t h o u g h t that 8 ome Plant Managers thought that everybody was 9 upposed to wear them all the time - 1 0 And obj e c t e d to that, and I agreed with their 11 b j e c t i o n . I d i d n ' t m e a n it for that. And, o b v i o u s l y , 12 didn't -- wasn't clear. 13 When you said to all Plant M a n a g e r s , you meant 14 0 all P l a n t M a n a g e r s , sir? 1 5 Yes. 1 6 And, how did you get this to them, did they 17 at t h i s t h r o u g h c o m p a n y mail or how? 18 No, I w o u l d mail it to them. 19 . A n d did y o u , in f a c t , send it to all P l a n t 20 m a g e r s in '60? 21 A . Yes. 22 Q . And, a g a i n in '67? 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 Q. Only in 67, you had added the words, where 25 st c o n t r o l is not s u f f i c i e n t to m a i n t a i n a i r b o r n e dust Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000773 1 Leon H o r o w it z Cross 1 75 2 concentrations below maximum permissible limits? 3 ^ R i g h t , and I also a d d e d a n o t h e r s e n t e n c e to 4 paragraph four. 5 9* Indeed, you did. 6 one for a minute, Let me stick with paragraph 7 A. Right. 8 9- Did 1 u n d e r s t a n d you to -- well, did you tell me 9 a minute ago, that the reason that you thought that 1 0 the P l a n t M a n a g e r s w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d it was o n l y w h e r e 11 m a x i m u m p e r m i s s i b l e l i m i t s were e x c e e d e d that one 12 would have to wear a respirator, was that Plant 13 M a n a g e r s w e r e f a m i l i a r w i t h m a x i m u m p e r m i s s i b l e 14 l i m i t s ? 15 A. Ves, they were. 16 17 A . And that would have been true even as of 1960? Yes. 18 And how would they have been aware of that? 19 Our w h o l e modus ope randi in the field - 20 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, our - 21 THE W I T N E S S : Our w h o l e way of 22 o p e r a t i n g in the field was - 23 MR. BROMBERG: Modus operandi. 24 THE WITNESS: Modus operandi, our 25 way of o p e r a t i n g in the field was to aim towards K~ ni~pes-Cohen Associates Castleman.ctKiuuu//4 1 Leon Horowitz Cr oss 1 76 2 that guide of what was s o - c a l l e d c l e a n l i n e s s . 3 BY MR . B R O M B E R G : 4 Q. And-- 5 MR. LOCKS: May I object to the 6 q u e s t i o n and the a n s w e r , as not r e s p o n s i v e . 7 MR. BROMBERG: You're late for the 8 q u e s t i o n . The answer you can move to strike. 9 MR. LOCKS: I'll move to strike - 10 thank you, Mr. B r o m b e r g , I'll move to strike 11 the answer. 12 BY MR . B R O M B E R G : 13 Q . The -- and this was something that you had made 14 the P l a n t M a n a g e r s a w a r e of; c o r r e c t ? 15 A . Yes. 16 You see, a p p a r e n t l y , I a d d e d it a f t e r 17 C e r t a i n t e e d . But, in the K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n d a y s , it 18 was s o r t of an o b v i o u s c o n c l u s i o n . 19 Q . Okay. 20 And at one p o i n t you t e s t i f i e d in 21 -- on e x a m i n a t i o n by one of my c o l l e a g u e s that one 22 of the t h i n g s that w o u l d lead you to d e t e r m i n e w h e r e to 23 do y o u r air s a m p l i n g w o u l d be v i s u a l o b s e r v a t i o n ; is 24 that c o r r e c t ? 25 A. That'scorrect. Knipes-Cohen Associ#ates Castleman.CERT000775 1 2 Q. Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 1 77 By that what do you m e a n , s e e i n g the d u s t in 3 the air? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And, did you k n o w , sir, at that t i m e , at 6 what Level or how many p a r t i c l e s per cubic foot of 7 dust in the air w o u l d have to be reached for you to 8 a c t u a l l y see it in the air, if you knew? 9 A. G e n e r a l l y , if you see it, it's an a r e a that you 1 0 would want to d e t e r m i n e with i n s t r u m e n t s . And, u s u ally, 11 it d e p e n d s on t h e l i g h t i n g , but you -- you can -- it's 12 a v e r y s u b j e c t i v e m e t h o d . 13 Q. If you c o u l d see dust in the a i r , di d that 14 a u t o m a t i c a l l y m e a n that you were e x c e e d i n g five m i l l i o n 15 particles per cubic foot? 16 A . No, it d i d not. D e f i n i t e l y not 17 Q . Okay. 18 And the only way that you could make 19 that d e t e r m i n a t i o n , it was y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g , was 20 t h r o u g h the use of c e r t a i n m a c h i n e r y , and I th i n k you 21 m e n t i o n e d c e r t a i n t y p e s of i m p i n g e r s . 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did you in the early days, use the Green b e r g 24 i m p i n g e r ? 25 A. Greenberg-Smith impinger. Knipes-Cohen Associ#ates Castleman.CERT000776 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 1 78 2 Q. And, Later, the midget impinger? 3 A. Well, the Greenberg-Smith impinger was a Large 4 impinger which I onLy used the midget impinger, which 5 was a Lso G r e enberg-Smith. 6 Q. Did you work under Greenberg? 7 A. I w o rked with Dr. Le o n a r d G r e e n b e r g . He was 8 my first boss in the State of New York. 9 Q. The -- strike that. 1 0 There were occasions, were there not, 11 w h e n you w o u L d d e t e r m i n e that -- s t r i k e that. 12 When you were working for Keasbey- 13 M a t t i s o n , w e r e t h e r e not o c c a s i o n s w h e n you w o u L d 14 d e t e r m i n e that c o n c e n t r a t i o n s of dust in t h e air had 15 exceeded five miLLion parti c Les per cubic foot? 16 A. There were. 17 Q. And, did you, on those occasions, recommend 18 that s o m e t h i n g be d o n e a b o u t it? 19 A . U su a L Ly . 20 Q. And the n a t u r e of your r e c o m m e n d a t i o n w o u L d be 21 w h a t , sir, p L e a s e ? 22 A. It d e p e n d e d what I t h o u g h t the s o u r c e of the 23 dust w a s . It c o u L d be a n y t h i n g from a c h a n g e of 24 t e c h n i q u e and o p e r a t i o n and p r o c e s s to the p e r h a p s 25 e x t r e m e of r e - d e s i g n i n g or a d d i n g to the e x h a u s t s y s t e m . Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000777 1 Leon H o ro w it z Cross 1 79 2 Q. Okay. 3 Now, in a d d i t i o n to your - 4 What? 5 THE WITNESS: Exhaust system. 6 BY MR. BROMBERG:. 7 q. in a d d i t i o n to your r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s , were there 8 occasions when outside consultants made recommendations 9 as to c h a n g e s that s h o u l d be made in the v e n t i l a t i o n 10 system.or otherwise? 11 A . 12 Q . 13 A . During my tenure? Duri n g your t e n u r e at K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n . I was the expert. 14 Q . 15 Okay. Do you recall any o c c a s i o n s when 16 o u t s i d e c o n s u l t a n t s a l s o -- d u r i n g the K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n 17 d a y s , w h e n o u t s i d e c o n s u l t a n t s made r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s 18 as to c h a n g e s in the m a n u f a c t u r i n g p r o c e s s or in 19 v e n t i l a t i o n equipment to reduce constraints - 20 A. The d o c t o r r e f e r r e d to b e f o r e from H a r v a r d , ` 21 Dr. F i r s t . 22 Q. Dr. First from Harvard? 23 A. He's the only one I know of, 24 q . He d i d m a k e ar e c o m m e n d a t i o n to K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n ? 25 A . Yes. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000778 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 180 2 Q. Did they follow it? 3 A. At p l a n t 4. I i n d i c a t e d t h e r e was a cost 4 factor, and there was much discussion and some minor 5 points were followed, but not completely. 6 Q. And, did there c o n t i n u e to be c o n c e n t r a t i o n s 7 in e x c e s s of five m i l l i o n p a r t i c l e s per cubic foot 8 at that l o c a t i o n ? 9 A. Yes, there did. 10 Q. Were there occasions when you made recommenda- 11 t i o n s as to v e n t i l a t i n g e q u i p m e n t or o t h e r m e c h a n i c a l 1 2 c h a n g e s t h a t s h o u l d be made at K e a s b e y - M a t t i son, and 13 t h e y w e r e not f o l l o w e d b e c a u s e of the cost f a c t o r s 14 involved? 15 A . Not all of my r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s were followed. 16 Q . Okay. 17 Let me ask you the question, turned 18 a r o u n d s l i g h t l y t h o u g h , I t h i n k I a s k e d a s o m e w h a t 19 d i f f e r e n t q u e s t i o n f r o m the one you a n s w e r e d . 20 Were most of your r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s 21 f o l l o w e d , by that -- 22 MR. SHEIN: Objected, to, vague. 23 BY MR . B R O M B E R G : 24 a . -- by that, I mean more than half. 25 A. More than what? Knipes-Cohen Associates CCaassttlleemmaann..CCEERRT000779 1 Leon H o r o w it z Cross 1 81 2 More than half of your r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s . 3 MR. SHEIN: O b j e c t e d to, as - 4 MR. BROMBERG: 5 W i t h r e g a r d to c h a n g e s in v e n t i l a t i o n s y s t e m s , 6 7. I n e v e r made an e v a l u a t i o n of that. I can assure 8 ou a h u n d r e d percent were not followed, and I can 9 ssure you more than zero were. 10 . Okay. , 11 . That's about all. 12 . Th a t gives us some room. 1 3 Now, assuming that we have that 14 a n g e , sir, w e r e t h e r e o c c a s i o n s w h e n you m a d e a r e c o m m e n 1 5 a t i o n as to c h a n g e s that s h o u l d be made in o r d e r to 16 ut d o w n on d u s t c o n c e n t r a t i o n s at K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n 17 hat were not f o l l o w e d by m a n a g e m e n t and there co n t i n u e d 18 o be c o n c e n t r a t i o n s in e x c e s s of five m i l l i o n p a r t i c l e s 19 er c u b i c f o o t ? 20 . In g eneral, I believe my r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s were 21 a k e n s e r i o u s l y . And -- 22 . But, that's not what I'm asking. 23 . And, they -- and discussions where the cost 24 a c t o r c a m e in, t h e r e w e r e time d e l a y s . B u t , in t h o s e 25 reas w h e r e they did not i m p r o v e , n a t u r a l l y , it c o n t i n u e Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000780 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - Cross 182 2 to be h i g h e r than the -- what I would like to see, 3 right. 4 Q. Five million particles? 5 A. Yes . 6 Q. And, did you or a n y o n e else a t K e a s b e y - M a t t i son 7 t h e n go to the m e n and say, men, we a re e x c e e d i n g 8 the permissible limits here and you s hould wear 9 respirators? 1 0 A. No, that was an o n - g o i n g program. 11 Q. And that was b e c a u s e your memo of O c t o b e r 13, 12 1960 said that r e s p i r a t o r s were to be worn all the 13 t i m e e v e r y w h e r e , w h e r e t h e r e was a s b e s t o s d u s t , right 14 A . Where -- I meant where there was excessive 15 asbestos dust, yes. 16 Q. How did you think the man on the job was going 17 to k n o w t h a t it was b e i n g e x c e e d e d at his p a r t i c u l a r 18 w o r k s t a t i o n ? 19 A. It was not the man on the job - 20 MR. LOCKS: I o b j e c t to the form of 21 the question. 22 3Y M R . B R O M B E R G : 23 a. 24 A. Did you think the man on the job - s It was the M a n a g e r ' s r e s p o n s i b i l i t y . If I saw 25 it, I c o n t i n u e d my r e c o m m e n d a t i o n . Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000781 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 1 83 2 Q. When you say management responsibility/ you mean 3 Keasbey-Matti son responsibi lity? 4 A. T h e P l a n t M a n a g e r at the time, w h o e v e r 5 Q. You didn't hide the fact from the Plant 6 Manager that they were exceeding five million particles 7 per cubic foot? 8 A. I w o u l d r e p o r t on it. 9 MR. STRAIN: This concludes tape 10 n u m b e r t h r e e / and the t i m e is 2:44. 11 We're now back on the record. This 12 is the b e g i n n i n g of t a p e n u m b e r f o u r / and the 13 t i m e is 2:49. 14 MR. BROMBERG: I have no further 15 questions/ sir. 1 6 M R . G A L L O : No o t h e r D e f e n s e c o u n s e l 17 have cross examination? 18 MR. GUS K Y : I have a c o u p l e of 19 questions. 20 BY MR . G U S K Y : 21 Q. Mr. H o r o w i t z / a f t e r y o u r d e p o s i t i o n in 22 W a s h i n g t o n on J u n e 3 0 t h / 1980/ did you m a k e a f u r t h e r 23 s e a r c h to f i n d o t h e r d o c u m e n t s w h i c h you may have 24 had that you a c q u i r e d d u r i n g the p e r i o d of time that 25 you w o r k e d for K e a s b e y - M a t t i son and C e r t a i n t e e d ? Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000782 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 184 2 A. At the time of the d e p o s i t i o n , I was asked to 3 m a k e a f u r t h e r s e a r c h . I did. I sent it to the 4 p e o p l e in W a s h i n g t o n . 5 Q. Sir, let me pass down to you a letter -- 6 THE WITNESS: A letter to Lizzie, yes, 7 I've read it. 8 BY MR . GUSKY 9 Q. Sir, i s that a true and correct copy of a letter 1 0 which you wrote 7 11 A. Yes, i t is. 12 Q. What i s the date of that letter? 13 A . July 2 , 1 980. 14 Q . And, t o whom did you write the tetter? 15 A. 16 Q . I w r o t e it to M i s s E l i z a b e t h G i b s o n . Does she r e p r e s e n t a p a r t y in this l i t i g a t i o n , 17 t 0 the best o f y o u r k n o w l e d g e ? 18 A. To the best of my k n o w l e d g e , she r e p r e s e n t e d - - 19 Shea and G a r n e r , she w o r k e d for -- Shea and G a r n e r , 20 r e p r e s e n t e d a party to this. 21 Q . Okay. 22 And did you - - 23 A . Sorry. 24 Q. Did you i n c l u d e with that letter a n u m b e r of 25 o t h e r d o c u m e n t s ? Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000783 1 2 A. 3 Q. Leon H o r o w i t z - Cross 185 I believe I did. I say I did. In that letter, t h e re's a r e f e r e n c e made to a 4 m e m o of N o v e m b e r 10, 1964; is that c o r r e c t ? 5 A. Yes. 6 MR. GUSKY: I would like that letter 7 m a r k e d , as I b e l i e v e it w o u l d be E x h i b i t 28, 8 w h i c h is the next n u m b e r in our s e r i e s . 9 BY MR. GUSKY: 10 Q. 11 12 13 S i r, I wou Id - MR. S H E I N : Are t h e r e c o p i e s of this l e t t e r for C o u n s e l , or is this the first time we're h earing of this? 14 MR. GUSKY: It's no secret. 1 5 MR . GALLO : Why don't you continue 16 with your cross exami nation, please. 17 MR. SHEIN: I object to it. I 18 don' t know what letter we're talking about . 19 I haven't been shown it . 20 MR. G A L L O : P a s s it d o w n to 21 Mr . S h e in . 22 MR. COHEN: I haven't seen it 23 e i t h e r , so I'll wait for Counsel to f in i s h 24 i t , so I can look at it. 25 MR. STRAIN: We're going off the record Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000784 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - Cross 186 2 an d the t i m e is 2:53. 3 We're back on the record, and the 4 t i m e is 3 : 0 3 . 5 BY MR. GUSKY: 6 Q. Mr. H o r o w i t z , do you have in front of you what's 7 b e e n m a r k e d as E x h i b i t 29? 8 A. Yes, I d o . 9 Q. Cauld you describe what Exhibit 29 is, please? 1 0 A. It is a m e m o f r o m me to Mr. D a v i s , w h o is 11 V i c e - P r e s i d e n t of the P i p e D i v i s i o n , w r i t t e n on 12 N o v e m b e r 10th, and r e v i e w e d the c o m m e n t a r y made by , 13 Dr. S h a w , as a r e s u l t of our a t t e n d a n c e at the m e e t i n g , 14 at t h e c o n f e r e n c e on b i o l o g i c a l e f f e c t s of a s b e s t o s 1 5 at the New Y o r k A s s e m b l y of S c i e n c e . 16 Q. A n d , was this m e m o r a n d u m p r e p a r e d by you in the 17 n o r m a l c o u r s e of b u s i n e s s , as an e m p l o y e e of C e r t a i n - 18 t e e d ? 19 A. 20 Q. Y e s , it was. W h o is Mr. J.L. A n d e r s o n , w h o s e n a m e a p p e a r s 21 on t h i s m e m o r a n d u m ? 22 A. Can you t e l l me w h e r e it a p p e a r s ? 23 Q. Right under Mr. Lanz's name. Onthe - 24 A. Yes, I b e l i e v e at that time, he was made 25 C h i e f E n g i n e e r in r e p l a c i n g S p e d d i n g in our S t a f f O f f i c e Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000785 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - Cross 187 2 and t h e r e f o r e , he would have been my superior. 3 Q. Was he your i m m e d i a t e s u p e r i o r in N o v e m b e r of 4 1964? 5 A. For that time, very short time. He, later, 6 was M a n a g e r of one of the pipe plants. 7 Q. Sir, I w o u l d like to call your a t t e n t i o n , on page 8 one, to the second full paragraph, not paragraph two 9 but the s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h . I would like you to read 1 0 that to y o urself for a moment, please. 11 A . Yes. 12 Q. Could you read the first s e n t e n c e of that 13 p a r a g r a p h a n d s t o p and t h e n I'll ask you s o m e 14 q u e s t i o n s . 15 A. Th e d i s c u s s i o n at our m e e t i n g w ith the four 16 r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s from T u r n e r B r o t h e r s A s b e s t o s C o m p a n y 17 the e v e n i n g b e f o r e the c o n f e r e n c e was m o s t l y on the 18 a c c o m p l i s h m e n t of the a s b e s t o s r e s e a r c h c o u n s e l of 19 E n g l a n d - - 20 21 C o u n s e l? 22 23 MR. L O C K S : A s b e s t o s is R e s e a r c h THE WITNESS: Is that right? MR . G U S K Y : That''s r i g h t . 24 THE W I T N E S S : Is that what you 25 wanted? Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000786 1 Leon H o row itz Cross 1 88 2 RR. GUSKY: Yes, that's correct. 3 BY MR . GUSKY 4 Q. Could you tell us , sir, who the four rep resen- 5 ta t iVe s from the Turner Brothers Asbestos Company 6 were at that time? 7 A. I can only recall Mr. Davis and Dr. Knox. 8 Q. Is it the s a m e Mr . D a v i s w h o s e name a p p e a r s 9 on the memo? 10 A . N o , no. 11 Q . 12 A . Another Mr. Davis 7 This was a scient ist from England. I t h i n k it 13 was D a v i s or D a v i e s . Hi s n a m e has come up d u r i n g our 14 i n t e r r o g a t o r y here. 1 5 Q. T h e p h r a s e , our m e e t i n g , who e l s e was at the 1 6 m e e t i n g t h a t ' s d e s c r i b e d in that first s e n t e n c e ? 17 A. T h o s e four r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s , m y s e l f and Dr. 18 S h a w . It was on the n i g h t b e f o r e the m e e t i n g , 19 c o n f e r e n c e r o o m . 20 Q. Do you know at w h o s e r e q u e s t the m e e t i n g was 21 h e l d ? 22 A. I believe our management realized that these 23 p e o p l e w e r e on the a g e n d a , and h a v i n g come -- and 24 h a v i n g -- s i n c e t h e y r e p r e s e n t e d T u r n e r B r o t h e r s or 25 T u r n e r - Ne w a l l , and C e r t a i n t e e d n e w l y a c q u i r e d the Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000787 1 Leon H o r o w it z Cross 1 89 2 a s b e s t o s c e m e n t p l a n t / they t h o u g h t it w o u l d be nice 3 for us to get t o g e t h e r and talk to them. 4 MR. LOCKS: I object to the answer, 5 move to s t r i k e , as to what he b e l i e v e s . 6 BY MR . GUSKY : 7 Q. In N o v e m b e r of 1964, to the best of your 8 knowledge, was there any business relationship 9 between Turner Brothers Asbestos Company and 1 0 Certai nteed? 11 A. None that I know of. 12 q . Was Turner Brothers Asbestos Company providing 13 any t y p e of a d v i c e to C e r t a i n t e e d p r i o r to the 14 meeting that you held there? 1 5 16 . MR. BRUCH: Objection. THE WITNESS: None that I know of. 17 BY MR . G U S K Y : 18 q . Did Turner Brothers Asbestos Company provide 19 any a d v i c e a f t e r the m e e t i n g t h a t ' s r e f e r r e d to up 20 until the time that you left Certainteed? 21 A. I have no k n o w l e d g e of that at all. 22 q . Did you have any further communications with 23 a n y o n e f r o m T u r n e r B r o t h e r s A s b e s t o s C o m p a n y , a f t e r 24 the m e e t i n g t h a t ' s r e f e r r e d to in this m e m o r a n d u m ? 25 A. I believe I met Dr. K n o x at the ,Knipes-Cohen A. ssoci.at.es Industrial Castleman.CERT000788 1 Leon H o ro w itz Cross 1 90 2 H y g i e n e F o u n d a t i o n that was r e f e r r e d to b e f o r e in 3 this t e s t i m o n y . And he was the s p e aker there, that's 4 all. 5 q. Sir, d u r i n g the t i m e that you w o r k e d at 6 K e a s b e y and Hatti son, did you ever hear of a c o m p a n y 7 known as Bell A s b e s t o s Mines Limited? 8 A. 9 Q. Yes, I did. A n d , w h a t - - w h a t did you hear abou-t 1 0 them? 11 A. I t h o u g h t they were the company owned by 12 Turner and NewalL. 13 Q. T h e y w e r e a l s o o w n e d by T u r n e r - N e w a L L? 1 4 A. I thought they were. I didn't say they were. 1 5 Q. You thought they were. Has anything happened 1 6 since that time to c h a n g e your t h i n k i n g on that? 17 MR. MASON: Objection. 18 MR. GALLO: Objection. 19 THE WITNESS: I believe somebody 20 i n d i c a t e d that it was true. 21 MR. GUSKY: Okay. 22 BY M R . G U S K Y : 23 q . in your job, sir, did you have any i n v o l v e m e n t 24 w i th d e c i d i n g what g r a d e s or t y p e s of a s b e s t o s f i b e r s 25 w o u l d be u s e d in the p r o d u c t s m a n u f a c t u r e d by K e a s b e y Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000789 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 1 91 2 and Matti son? 3 A. I had no i n p u t / n o t h i n g to do w i t h that at all. 4 q. W o u l d y o u r a n s w e r be the same, if I as k e d you 5 with respect to Certainteed? 6 A. That's true. 7 q. Sir, did you ever place any of these dust 8 m o n i t o r i n g devices you d e s c ribed p r e v i o u s l y on anyone 9 who w o r k e d as a f o r k l i f t o p e r a t o r ? 1 0 A. The t e c h n i q u e used was not c o n d u c i v e to p lacing 11 any air s a m p l i n g e q u i p m e n t on a n y b o d y . I had to c a r r y 1 2 it my s e If. It was not like m o d e r n t e c h n i q u e s . 13 Q . I t hought you made - - are you talking about 14 p u t t i n g a m o n i t o r i n g d e v i c e near w h e r e a p e r s o n w o u l d 15 breath? 1 6 A. I held it with my hands. 17 Q . Okay. 18 So/ I t a k e it t h e n you n e v e r did 19 this w i t h a n y o n e who o p e r a t e d a f o r k l i f t t r u c k ? 20 ' MR. BROMBERG: Objection/ irrelevant. 21 THE WITNESS: That's not true. I 22 can s t i l l do it w i t h a f o r k l i f t t r u c k by 23 just g o i n g on it/ s i t t i n g on it w i t h him. 24 BY MR 25 Q . ; GUSKY : Did you do it w i t h a n y o n e who o p e r a t e d a f o r k - Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000790 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 1 92 2 Lift truck? 3 MR. BROMBERG: Objection, irrelevant. 4 THE WITNESS: I don't recall doing 5 it . 6 MR. BROMBERG: And not proper 7 cross examination. 8 BY MR. GUSKY: 9 Q. Mr. Horowitz, I believe that your prior 1 0 d e p o s i t i o n , you made a c o m p a r i s o n of the d u s t i n e s s 11 of p l a n t s 4, 1 and 8 ; is that c o r r e c t ? 1 2 A. If you say so, yes. 13 Q. Well, let me ask you this, which plant -- which 14 plant of those three was the dustiest? 1 5 A. Again, subjective type thing, plant four. 16 Q. And why -- why was that? 17 A. That was b e c a u s e of the p r o c e s s they had of 18 m a k i n g i n s u l a t i o n , p i p e i n s u l a t i o n . 1 9 Q. What was i n h e r e n t in that p r o c e s s w h i c h m a d e it 20 du s t i e r than other p r o c e s s e s ? 21 A. Well, they made a block of m a t e r i a l th r o u g h a 22 wet s l u r r y m e t h o d and t h e n d r i e d it. And t h e n t h e y cut 23 out a b o u t s e v e n t y - f i v e p e r c e n t of the b L o c k for a r o u n d 24 ing it out so t h a t you can use it as a c o v e r . 25 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, for a Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CEKI000/91 1 Leon H o r o w it z - Cross 1 93 2 round - 3 T H E W I T N E S S : For r o u n d i n g it out, 4 so that it w o u l d fit on a pipe. So, s e v e n t y - f i v e 5 p e r c e n t of the mater i a l had to be cut out. 6 So, t h e r e was an awful lot of dust made at 7 that time. 8 BY MR . GUSKY: 9 Q. C e r t a i n t e e d d i d n ' t a c q u i r e p l a n t 4, did it? 10 A . No, they did not. 11 Q . Do you know who did? 12 A . 13 Q. Ni c o l e t , a s far a s I know. From *62 t 0 '6 8 , when Nicolet acqui red or had 14 p l a n t 4, did you e v e r have o c c a s i o n to go in t h e r e ? 1 5 MR . BROMBERG: Objection, irrelevant 16 THE WITNESS: I don't recall going 17 in there. 18 MR. GUSKY: Thank you, that's all 19 I have. 20 MR. MASO N : I have a c o u p l e of q u e s 21 tions based on what Mr. Gusky has brought out. 22 BY M R. M A S O N : 23 Q. In this Exhibit 29, you wrote paragraph two, / 24 Dr. K n o x s a i d that U.S. i n d u s t r y in g e n e r a l - 25 : We can't Knipes-Cohen Associates hear you down Castleman.CERT000792 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 1 94 2 here. 3 BY MR. M ASON: 4 Q. In p a r a g r a p h two -- 5 A. You don't have a mike on. 6 Q. Oh , sorry. 7 I n p a r a g r a p h t wo of E x h i b i t 29, you 8 w r o t e that Dr. Knox said that U . S . i nd u s t r y i n 9 ge n e r a l does not want to accept the fact t h a t 10 a s b e s t o s is very h a z a r d o u s , did you not ? 11 A . 12 Q . Yes, I did Wer e you one of the pers o D l/) n U.S. I n d u s t ry 13 who d i d not want t 0 a c c e p t that fact 14 A . I wa s not U. S. i n d u s t r y , but I w i l l a n s w e r the 1 5 q u e s t i o n and say, r a t h e r t h a n not want to. it was 1 6 d i f f i c u l t for me t 0 a c c e p t it at the t i m e , yes. 17 Q. Now, was that be c a u s e of number 3 -- I'm sorry, 18 b e c a u s e of the rest of n u m b e r 2 w h e r e Dr. K n o x s a i d 19 t h e y , r e f e r r i n g to U.S. i n d u s t r y , will a c c e p t any 20 d o c t o r ' s v i e w if he i n t i m a t e d t h a t it is not h a z a r d 21 h a z a r d o u s . W e r e you one of t h o s e who w o u l d a c c e p t 22 any d o c t o r ' s v i e w , if he i n t i m a t e d that it was not 23 h a z a r d o u s ? 24 A. No, the i n t i m a t i o n t h e r e is that they are 25 m o r e r e a d y to a c c e p t a n e g a t i v e a t t i t u d e t h a n Knipes-Cohen A ssoci^ates Castleman.CERT000793 1 Leon H o row it z Cross 1 95 2 a p o s i t i v e , and that was not my a t t i t u d e at all. 3 I had o t h e r reasons for not r e a d i l y a c c e p t i n g it. 4 Q. What were they? 5 A. My r e a s o n s were as a -- t r a d i t i o n a l l y , as an 6 industrial hygienist, you needed more exposure, time 7 weighted e x p o s u r e , to get an o c c u p a t i o n a l d i s e a s e 8 t h a n t h e m e s o t h e l i o m a is not r e l a t e d to t i m e weighted 9 e x p o s u r e . So, it was d i f f i c u l t for me to a c c e p t . 1 0 MR. SHEIN: O b j e c t e d to as the w itness 11 has not shown q u a l i f i c a t i o n s to express that 12 o p i n i o n , and has not been c a l l e d as an expert. 13 BY MR. MASON: 14 Q. Let me ask you this - 1 5 MR . S H E I N : M o v e that it be 16 stricken . 17 BY MR. M A S O N : 18 q . -- did you learn anything you didn't already 19 know, as a r esult of this m e e t i n g r e f e r r e d to in E x h i b i t 20 29? 21 MR . SHE I N : O b j e c t i o n as we don't 22 know what he a l r e a d y knew. 23 MR. BROMBERG: Objection, there's 24 two different meetings. 25 There are also two different meetings. Knipes-Cohen A sso~~c~iates Castleman.CERT000794 1 Leon H o ro w itz - Cross 196 2 THE WITNESS: I learned a lot that 3 week. 4 BY MR . MASON: 5 Q. I'm talking about this meeting you had with 6 four representatives from Turner Brothers Asbestos 7 Company/ the evening before the conference/ about the 8 hazards of asbestos, I'm talking about. 9 A. You learn something all the time. I learned 1 0 s o m e t h i n g from it. 11 q . W h a t . d i d you learn about the hazards of 12 a s b e s t o s -- 13 A. A little more convincing that these 14 p r o f e s s i o n a l s a c c e p t e d the fact and that I s h o u l d 15 review my thinking and listen more and learn more. 16 Q . Okay. 17 Aside from either r e - e n f o r c i n g or 18 m o r e c o n v i n c i n g , as you put it, what new fact a b o u t 19 the h a z a r d s of a s b e s t o s did you learn, if a n y t h i n g ? 20 A. N o t h i n g new that I h a d n ' t been i n f o r m e d of 21 b e f o r e . 22 MR. MASON: That's a ll I have. 23 MR . GALLO : Mr. Cohen? 24 MR. BRUCH: I have one question. 25 PY MR . B R U C H : Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000795 1 Leon H o r o w it z - Cross 1 97 2 Q. Mr. H o r o w i t z , in 1960, when you r e f e r r e d to 3 the five million particles per cubic foot standard, 4 was that over an eight hour weighted average? 5 A. That was over an eight hour w e i g h t e d aver a g e , 6 yes. 7 Q. And what does that mean? 8 A. Tha t m e a n s that in or d e r to c o m p a r e with the 9 a l l o w a b l e limit, the a l l o w a b l e limit was d e s i g n e d or 1 0 stated that if a worker was exposed for a full eight 11 h o u r s per d a y , f o r t y h o u r s per week and f i f t y w e e k s 12 per year, on a steady basis, over the allowable 13 l i m i t , c h a n c e s are that he m i g h t get a -- 1-4 an o c c u p a t i o n a l d i s e a s e . a disease, 1 5 MR. COHEN: Object to the t e s t i m o n y 16 o f the w i t n e s s , in t h a t it c a l l s for an e x p e r 17 t i se which the witness has not been q u a l i f i e d 18 t 0 t e s t i f y to as of t h i s f u n c t i o n . 19 BY MR . B R U C H : . 20 Q . Mr . H o r o w i t z , as an e n g i n e e r , when you d e s i g n 21 a d u s t g o o d , or any s y s t e m to c o l l e c t d u s t , do you 22 d e s i g n i t for a c e r t a i n level or do you d e s i g n i t 23 for z e r o ? 24 A. You put the best design possible you can put 2 5 in. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000796 1 Leon H o ro w it z Cross 1 98 2 MR. BRUCH: Thank you. 3 BY MR. COHEN: 4 Q. Mr. Horowitz -- 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. -- my n a m e is M i t c h e l l C o h e n , and I r e p r e s e n t 7 c e r t a i n P l a i n t i f f s in -- in this a c t i o n . 8 I'd like to just go back b r i e f l y and 9 I b e l i e v e y o u s t a t e d that you're p r e s e n t l y working with 1 0 A m e r i c a n M u t u a l L i a b i l i t y I n s u r a n c e C o m p a n y ; is that 11 c o r r e c t ? 1 2 A. T h a t is c o r r e c t . 13 Q. And t h e y ' r e l o c a t e d in W a k e f i e l d , M a s s a c h u s e t t s ? 1 4 A. Th a t is c o r rect. 1 5 Q. And, can you tell me their specific address 1 6 in W a k e f i e l d , i n c l u d i n g their postal zip? 17 A. Wakefield, Massachusetts, 01880. 18 Q. Is there an a d d ress -- post o f f i c e box? 1 9 A. No, no p o s t o f f i c e box. T h e b i g g e s t one in 20 town. 21 Q. Now, I b e l i e v e that you stated in your prior 22 d e p o s i t i o n at p a g e f o u r t e e n that you w ere i n t e r v i e w e d 23 i n i t i a l l y in R o c k e f e l l e r C e n t e r , p r i o r to your 24 a c t u a l l y b e i n g h i r e d by K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n ; is that 25 c o r r e c t ? " Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000797 1 Leon H o ro w itz - Cross 199 2 A. T h a t is c o r r e c t . 3 Q. Do you know who had the o f f i c e at R o c k e f e l l e r 4 Center that you were interviewed a t , was that a 5 Keasbey and Matti son office? 6 A. I believe Keasbey and Mattison had an office 7 there. 8 Q. Now, can you tell me at the t i m e y o u f i r s t 9 began working for Keasbey and Mattison, were you aware 1 O of who the i n s u r a n c e c a r r i e r was for their p r o d u c t 11 l i a b i l i t y i n s u r a n c e ? 1 2 A. Did you say befo r e or duri n g ? 13 Q . At the time you came with Keasbey and Mattison, 14 w e r e y o u a w a r e of the i n s u r a n c e c a r r i e r , w h o was 1 5 r e s p o n s i b l e for c o v e r i n g c l a i m s which w ere m ade or 1 6 may p o t e n t i a l l y be made b e c a u s e of p r o d u c t liab i l i t y ? 17 MR . GALLO : Objection. 18 MR . MASON: I object to that 19 question. 20 THE WITNESS: I was not aware. 21 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 22 BY MR. C O H E N : 23 Q . At any time s u b s e q u e n t to your b e g i n n i n g 24 e m p l o y m e n t w i t h K e a s b e y " a n d M a t t i s o n , did you ever 25 have o c c a s i o n to learn w h e t h e r an i n s u r a n c e c a r r i e r Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000798 1 Leon Horowi t z Cross 200 2 u n d e r w r o t e the risk of Workmens' C o m p e n s a t i o n or 3 product Liability for Keasbey and Mattison? 4 MR . GALLO : Objection. 5 'MR . MASON: O b j e c t i o n . 6 MR . GALLO : Beyond the scope 7 MR . BRUCH: Objection. 8 THE WIT NESS : Only Workmens' 9 Compensation. 1 O BY MR. COHEN: 11 Q. And,can-- 12 MR. LOCKS: I'm sorry, I didn't hear 13 the answer. 14 THE WITNESS: Only Workmens' 15 Compensation. 1 6 MR. COHEN: Only Workmens' 17 Compensation. 18 BY M R . C O H E N : 19 Q. Okay, can you tell me who that Workmens' 20 C o m p e n s a t i o n c a r r i e r was at the time you first 21 b e c a m e a w a r e ? 22 A. I b e l i e v e it was the c o m p a n y I w o r k for now, 23 A m e r i c a n M u t u a l L i a b i l i t y I n s u r a n c e C o m p a n y . 24 q . Now, are you aware of the dates that A m e r i c a n 25 M u t u a l L i a b i l i t y I n s u r a n c e C o m p a n y b e c a m e or was a Knipes-Cohen A ssoci.ates Castleman.CERT000799 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - C r o s s 201 2 carrier for Workmens' Compensation for Keasbey- 3 Mattison? 4 A. 5 6 7 8 9 When they started? MR. BRUCH: Mr. Cohen, can I have a c o n t i n u i n g objec t i o n to all questions regarding insurance coverage? MR. COHEN: Surely. THE WITNESS: You mean, when they 10 started? 11 MR. COHEN: When they started. 12 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 13 BY MR . C O H E N : 14 q . Do you know at what point they were a c t u a l l y 15 insuring for Workmens' Compensation, while you were 16 w i t h K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n ? 17 M R . B R O M B E R G : Could we clarify 18 this, are we talking about Workmens' C o m p e n s a 19 t i o n who w o u l d c o v e r the w o r k e r s at the p lant 20 in the e v e n t that they got an i n d u s t r i a l 21 i n j u r y w h i l e they w o r k e d t h e r e ? Is that 22 what you're talking about? 23 THE WITNESS: That's my understanding. 24 BY M R . C O H E N : " 25 q . And, we were d i s c u s s i n g Workmens' C o m p e n s a t i o n; Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000800 1 Leon Horowitz Cr os s 202 2 is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Okay. 5 Now, do you know whether that included 6 any a s b e s t o s r e l a t e d d i s e a s e which an e m p l o y e e may 7 s u f f e r due to his or her e m p l o y m e n t at K e a s b e y - 8 M a t t i s o n , w o u l d that have been i n c l u d e d in W o r k m e n s ' 9 Compensation? 1 0 MR. M A S O N : I w o u l d o b j e c t , u n l e s s he 11 knows the terms of the policy. 12 THE WITNESS : I don't know the terms 13 of the poli cy , d i d n ' t know the t e r m s of the 1 4 poli c y . I t h o u g h t it was a f u n c t i o n of the 1 5 S t a t e laws at the time. W h e t h e r there was a 1 6 s p e c i f i c law about a s b e s t o s , I'm not sure of. 17 BY MR. C O H E N : 18 Q. Do you know w h e t h e r any i n s u r a n c e carrier actuall) 19 p a i d any c l a i m s that were made f o r ' a l l e g e d d i s e a s 20 c a u s e d by e x p o s u r e to a s b e s t o s by an e m p l o y e e at 21 K e a s b e y - M a t t i son? 22 MR. MASON: Objection. 23 THE W I T N E S S : I don't know of any 24 that did, during^the time I was there? 25 MR. COHEN: That's correct. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000801 1 Leon H o r o w it z - C r o s s 203 2 BY MR. COHEN: 3 Q. Are you a w a r e as you t e s t i f i e d t o d a y , as to 4 whether American Mutual Liability Insurance Company, 5 your e m p l o y e r , has ever been na m e d in a l a w s u i t r e l a t i n g 6 to a s b estos disease? 7 A. Yes, I'm aware that they are. 8 Q. Are you a w a r e of the n a t u r e of the a l l e g a t i o n 9 made a g a i n s t your e m p l o y e r with regard to the lawsuits 1 0 brought against it? 11 A. A g e neral a w a r e n e s s on p r o d u c t s , that's all. 12 Q. Well, when you say a general awareness, can you 13 tell me, s p e c i f i c a l l y what it is a l l e g e d that your 14 e m p l o y e r did w h i c h c a u s e d it to be sued in an a c t i o n ? 1 5 MR. BROMBERG: Objection, irrelevant. 16 MS. GIBSON: Objection. 17 MR. BROMBERG: And prejudicial. 18 THE WITNE S S : I'm not privy to that 19 i n f o r m a t i o n except by hearsay. 20 BY MR. COHEN: 21 Q . W h a t is your u n d e r s t a n d i n g as t 0 why A m e r i c a n 22 or what a l l e g e d l y did y o u r e m p l o y e r do, which 23 c a u s e d it to be n a m e d in an a s b e s t o s la w s u i t or 24 la w s u i t s ? - 25 A. Apparently, they insured -- Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000802 1 Leon H o r o w it z Cross 204 2 MR. GALLO: I'm going to object. 3 MR. MASON: I'll object to that. 4 MS . G I B S O N : Me, t o o . 5 MR. BROMBERG: Are you including 6 claims they may have by way of Wo r k m e n s ' 7 C o m p e n s a t i o n liens a g a i n s t cases so that 8 they are, in effe c t , P l a i n t i f f s ? 9 MR. COHEN: No, I am t a l k i n g about 1 0 w h e r e they were n a m e d as D e f e n d a n t s in 11 asbestos lawsuits. 12 MR. GALLO: Objection, irrelevant. 13 MR. BROMBERG: Join the objection. 14 MR. CREEDON: Join the objection. 1 5 MR. C O H E N : I t h i n k it goes to the 16 interest that this witness may have with regard 17 to his c r e d i b i l i t y . I think it's relevant for 18 that purpose. 19 BY M R . C O H E N : 20 Q. Go ahead, you can answer the question. 21 A. T h e o n l y a w a r e n e s s I have is of suits that 22 are m a d e a g a i n s t c o m p a n i e s that my p r e s e n t c o m p a n y 23 i n s u r e d m a n y , m a n y y e a r s ago, on t h e i r p r o d u c t s , 24 w h i c h p r o d u c t s w e r e s u p p l i e d to a p a r t i c u l a r 25 c o m p a n y . I t h i n k the s h i p y a r d s in P a s c a g o u l a . T h e y ' r e Knipes-Cohen Associ.ates Castleman.CERT000803 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 205 2 the only ones I'm aware of. t 3 Q. Are you aware of any a l l e g a t i o n s that A m e r i c a n 4 Mut ual Liberty or Liability Insurance conspired - 5 THE COURT REP O R T E R : Are you aware of 6 any allegations - 7 BY MR. COHEN: 8 Q. Are you a w a r e of any a l l e g a t i o n s that your 9 present employer conspired with Keasbey and Mattison 1 O to p r e c l u d e the d i s t r i b u t i o n of i n f o r m a t i o n c o n c e r n i n g 11 h e a l t h h a z a r d s at the A m b l e r f a c i l i t y ? 1 2 MR . MASON: Object to the qu e s t i o n . 1 3 MR . BROMBERG : Objection. 1 4 MR . BRUCH: Objection. 1 5 MR . GALLO : T o t a l l y irrelevant. 1 6 THE WITNESS: Oh, definitely not. 17 BY MR . C O H E N : 18 Q . Now, when you first got to Keasbey and M a t t i s o n , 19 can y o u e n u m e r a t e fo r me the s o u r c e s of k n o w l e d g e that 20 were a v a i l a b l e to K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n with r egard to 21 the q u e s t i o n of a s b e s t o s h e a l t h ? 22 A. Help or health? 23 Q. H e a l t h , H - E - A - L - T - H , the sources of m a t e r i a l s 24 that K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n had a v a i l a b l e to it, from w h i c h 25 it c o u l d l e a r n a b o u t k n o w n or s u s p e c t e d h e a l t h h a z a r d s Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000804 1 Leon H o row it z Cross 206 2 rel a t i n g to a s b e s t o s ? 3 A. When I joined them, prior to when I joined them, 4 or after I joined them? 5 Q. W e l l , let me s t a t e at the time you j o i n e d 6 them, b a s e d upon your e x p e r i e n c e , were you able to 7 d e t e r m i n e what m a t e r i a l was a c c e s s i b l e to them prior 8 to your join i n g them? 9 A. T h e y were a m e m b e r of the I n d u s t r i a l H ealth 1 0 F o u n d a t i o n , which p u b l i s h e s a b s t r a c t s of all papers 11 h a v i n g to do w i t h o c c u p a t i o n a l d i s e a s e s . So, if 1 2 a n y b o d y read them, they were aware of the abstr a c t s 13 that w e r e a v a i l a b l e , yes. 14 Q. And, do you know how long -- I'm going to use 15 the term IHF - 16 A . 17 q . IH F . I n s t e a d ofI n dustrial Health or I n d u s t r i a l 18 Hygiene Foundation -- 19 A . 20 Q. 21 Right. -- they went undera name change. Do you k n o w how long K e a s b e y and 22 Haiti son was a m e m b e r of IHF p r i o r to y our j o i n i n g 23 t h e m ? 24 A. S e v e r a l ye a r s , but I don't know the n u m b e r of 25 y e a r s . Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000805 1 Leon H o row it z Cross 207 2 Q. And, do you know whether Keasbey and Matti son 3 w o u l d h a v e r e c e i v e d p u b l i c a t i o n s f r o m IH.F - 4 r a t h e r , such as a b s t r a c t s that were d i s t r i b u t e d c o n c e r n 5 ing asbestos related disease? 6 A. Yes, they would, that's part of the m e m b e r s h i p . 7 Q. And, you -- 8 A. T h a t is part o f the m e m b e r s h i p . 9 MR . STRAIN: We're going off the 1 0 r e c o r d , and the t i m e is 3:26. 11 We 're back on the record, and the 12 t i m e is 3:27. 13 BY MR. C O H E N : 14 Q . Mr . H o r o w i t z , when you first began a t K e a s b e y 1 5 and Ma 11 i son, do you recall s eeing any of the IHF 1 6 a b s t r a c t s a n y w h e r e on the premi ses of K e a s b ey and 17 M a t t i s o n , s p e c i f i c a l l y c o n c e r n i n g a s b e s t o s d i s e a s e ? 18 A. I don't recall seeing that. 19 Q. Do you ever recall at any time seeing any 20 a b s t r a c t s from IHF? 21 A . From that time on , I r e c e i v e d all of them. 22 Q . From -- when you say from 1960 forward? 23 A . 24 Q. From 1960 forward , yes. A n d , w o u l d that incl u d e the per i o d of time 25 w h e r e y o u b e c a m e an e m p l o y e e of C e rtai n t e e d ? Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000806 1 Leon H o r o w it z Cross 208 2 A. Yes, it as. 3 Q. And, approximately how often did you receive 4 abstracts specifically concerning asbestos health 5 hazards from IHF? 6 A. IHF does not publish anything specifically 7 c o n c e r n i n g a n y t h i n g in p a r t i c u l a r u nless they have a 8 s y m p o s i u m or s o m e t h i n g . Most of their a b s t r a c t s cover 9 -- they have a library, they cover o c c u p a t i o n a l disease 1 0 and industrial hygiene, related subjects, and they 11 d o n ' t s p e c i a l i z e , in o t h e r w o r d s . So, we have to cull 12 out an a b s t r a c t on asbestos. 13 Q. And, upon what basis can you say that they did 14 not s e n d s p e c i f i c a b s t r a c t s d e a l i n g with a s b e s t o s 1 5 di s e a s e ? 16 A. I did not say that. I don't understand your 17 q u e s t i o n . 18 Q. 19 Let me -- let me go back. Your statement was, I believe, that IHF 20 did not send s p e c i f i c a b s t r a c t s t r e a t i n g only the 21 s u b j e c t of a s b e s t o s r e l a t e d d i s e a s e ; is that c o r r e c t ? 22 A. O n l y if t h e y had a s y m p o s i u m on a s b e s t o s 23 r e l a t e d d i s e a s e . But, o t h e r w i s e , the a b s t r a c t w o u l d 24 be on e v e r y s u b j e c t that was -- that came out w i t h i n 25 that p e r i o d of time. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000807 1 Leon H o r o w it z Cross 209 2 q. So, if t h e r e w e r e a s p e c i f i c t y p e of a b s t r a c t 3 sent r e l a t i n g only to a s b e s t o s d i s e a s e , you would not 4 be a w a r e of it e v e n as t o d a y we sit h e r e , w o u l d that 5 be correct? 6 MR. GALLO: Objection, that's not his 7 testimony. 8 T H E W I T N E S S : No, I s a i d if I w o u l d 9 cull it out. 1 O BY MR. COHEN: 11 Q . W e l l , are you aware today as to w h e t h e r IHF 12 ever s ent a b s t r a c t s to its members that s p e c i f i c a l l y 13 dealt o n l y w i t h the s u b j e c t o f a s b e s t o s d i s e a s e ? 14 A . Definitely, they did 15 Q . Okay. 16 Now, when was the earl iest recollection 17 you ha ve of s p e c i f i c a l l y recei v i n g such a b s t r a c t s ? 18 A. Almost immediately, and t h is ra i sed the question 19 of the r e l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n c a n c e r and a s b e s t o s , 20 a Imost i m m e d i a t e l y a f t e r I j oi n e d the c o m p a n y . 21 Q . Now, if I u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c t l y from your t e s t i - 22 mony t h i s m o r n i n g , up u n t i l 1 9 6 0 , t h r o u g h o u t your 23 e x p e r i e n c e w i t h the S t a t e of New Y o r k , the City of 24 New Y o r k , y o u had no k n o w l e d g e of any c a r c i n o m a h a z a r d 25 b e i n g a s s o c i a t e d w i t h a s b e s t o s e x p o s u r e ? Knipes-Cohen Associ.ates Castleman.CERT000808 1 LeonHorowitz-Cross 210 2 A. I was not aware of that, yes. 3 Q. Now, when you got to K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n and 4 began receiving the specific IHF abstracts relating 5 to asbestos disease, were there abstracts from years 6 p r i o r to the t i m e you came at K e a s b e y M a t t i son? 7 A. There were a few. 8 Q. Okay. 9 Now, are you aware of whether any 1 0 of those a b s t r a c t s s p e c i f i c a l l y concerned asbestos 11 r e l a t e d d i s e a s e ? 12 A. That's the one we're talking about. That's the 13 o n e I s a i d I'm a w a r e of. 14 Q . Okay. 1 5 A. The asbestos. 16 Q . Can you tell me how far back in time prior to 17 y o u r s t a r t i n g w i t h K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n , the a b s t r a c t s 18 w e n t t h a t d e a l t with a s b e s t o s r e l a t e d d i s e a s e ? 19 A. When I read the first time I read of any 20 c o r r e lation or supposed or suspected correlation, I 21 w r o t e -- I c a l l e d the i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t of the 22 i n s u r a n c e c o m p a n y , w h i c h was the c o m p a n y I w o r k e d for 23 now in P h i l a d e l p h i a , and he -- and a s k e d him if he 24 w o u l d do a s e a r c h for me on any l i t e r a t u r e , and he 25 sent me a b o u t two p a g e s of a b s t r a c t s d e a l i n g m o s t l y with Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000809 1 Leon H o ro w it z Cross 211 2 p a p e r s that had been w r i t t e n i n . E n g l a n d and in South 3 Africa . 4 Q. Okay. 5 So - 6 A. So, those were the only ones I ever saw prior 7 -- that were w r i t t e n prior to the time I st a r t e d 8 seeing them. 9 Q. And, did you specifically tell your now employer, 10 but then i n s u r a n c e c a r r i e r , about IHF as a p o t e n t i a l 11 s o u r c e for t h e s e type of a r t i c l e s ? 1 2 A. I didn't have to tell them. They p r o b a b l y - 13 they r e c o m m e n d e d that the c o m p a n y join IHF. T h e y w e r e 14 a m e m b e r , t h e m s e l v e s , and I w o u l d meet t h e m at the 1 5 m e e t i n g s all the time. There was no need to tell 16 them. 17 Q . T h e y were aware of it. Y o u r p r e s e n t e m p l o y e r was a m e m b e r of IHF? 18 A. Local area here was, yeah. 19 Q . Okay. 20 And the only thing they provided you 21 was two p a g e s of a b s t r a c t s u p o n your r e q u e s t to t h e m ? 22 A. After the search they made, that was the only 23 t h i n g t h e y p r o v i d e d me, yes. 24 Q . Did you ever call IHF or i n s t r u c t anyone else to 25 c o n t a c t IHF to d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r t h e r e was -- w h e t h e r ^Knipes-C_ o,hen A. ssoc.iat. es Castleman.CERT000810 1 Leon H o row it z - Cross 212 2 t h e r e w e r e any a b s t r a c t s that you did not have in 3 your p o s s e s s ion / c o n c e r n i n g as best os r e l a t e d di s e a s e ? 4 A. N o , I d i d n 't f o l l o w it up, n o . 5 Q. W e l l , di d you t h i n k that it w o u l d be h e l p f u l 6 or n e c e s s a r y f 0 r you. in terms of the functi o n that 7 you were h i r e d f 0 r by K e a s b e y and Matti son, t 0 have 8 the b r o a d e s t po s s i b le s o u r c e of in f o r m a t i o n avai lable? 9 MR. BRUCH: I object to the form 1 0 of that. 11 T H E W I T N E S S : I d i d n ' t p u r s u e it 12 that way. I d i d n ' t p u r s u e it that way. I 13 was just made aware of it, and kept my eye 14 open to any L i t e r a t u r e or any m e e t i n g s , any 1 5 d i s c u s s i o n s as a m e m b e r of the AI H A , the 16 A m e r i c a n I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n e A s s o c i a t i o n , as 17 a m e m b e r of the IHF, and with the Local people 18 in the local i n d u s t r i a l h y g iene section. 19 BY MR. CO H E N : 20 Q. Now -- so that would have been a n y t h i n g from 21 1960 f o r w a r d ? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. Did y o u b e l i e v e that it was r e l e v a n t to y o u r 24 e m p l o y m e n t f u n c t i o n that you c o n c e r n y o u r s e l f with 25 k n o w l e d g e w h i c h had b e e n a c c u m u l a t e d p r i o r to 1960, Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000811 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - C r o s s 213 2 concerning asbestos disease? 3 A. W e l l , I had e n o u g h to do to f o l l o w the p r o g r e s s 4 from then on , rather than do a research. I was not 5 a r e s e a r c h p e r s o n , so 6 Q. Well, my - - my questi o n was not whether you felt 7 you had m o r e t h a n e n o u g h t 0 d o o t h erwi s e. My q u e s t i o n 8 i s , did you feel that it was n e c e s s a ry to a c q u a i n t 9 y o u r s e l f w i th the body o f s c ie n t i f i c or m e d i cal 1 O i n f o r m a t i o n wh i c h may have e x i s t e d prior to 1 960, 11 c o n c e r n i n g the s p e c i f i c s u b j e c t o f a s b e s t o s di s e a s e ? 12 a> M l i m ited myself t o what was a v a i l a b l e to 13 the i n s u r a n c e c o m p a n y . .* 14 MR. MASON: I o b j e c t -- I o b j e c t to 1 5 the form of the question, because the witness 1 6 has t e s t i f i e d that he came armed with k n o w l e d g e , 17 c e r t a i n k n o w l e d g e , that he had d e s c r i b e d 18 previously. I think your questioning suggests 1 9 t h a t he had no k n o w l e d g e u n t i l he came to 20 Keasbey-Matti son about asbestos diseases. 21 MR. B R O M B E R G : I also o bject to the 22 f orm of the q u e s t i o n as to his f e e l i n g s . 23 MR. LOCKS: I object to Mr. Masons' 24 i m p r o p e r c h a r a c t e r i z a t i o n of his prior t e stimony. 25 MR. COHEN: Thank you. Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000812 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 214 2 THE W I T NESS: Do I have a q u e s t i o n 3 toanswer? 4 MR . C O H E N : No . 5 BY MR. COHEN: 6 Q. Let's get back -- let's get back -- we'll 7 i n c o r p o r a t e Mr. M a s o n ' s o b j e c t i o n for want of a b e tter 8 t e r m a n d y o u b r o u g h t with you a c e r t a i n a m o u n t of 9 i n f o r m a t i o n that you had g a t h e r e d by v i r t u e of your 1 O work e x p e r i e n c e prior to 1960 with you. 11 A. That's true. 12 Q. Now, did you b e l i e v e that it w o u l d have been 13 h e l p f u l , as of 1 9 6 0 , w h e n you b e g a n with K e a s b e y - 14 M a t t i s o n , to go b a c k w a r d and d e t e r m i n e what the body of 15 scientific and medical information was that was 16 a v a i l a b l e c o n c e r n i n g a s b e s t o s d i s e a s e , w h e t h e r you had 17 t i m e or not to look at it all or r e s e a r c h it, did you 18 t h i n k t h a t that was s o m e t h i n g that s h o u l d be d o n e in 19 o r d e r for you to be in the best p o s i t i o n to o p e r a t e for 20 K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n ? 21 MR. GALLO: O b j e c t i o n to the 22 form. 23 MR. MASON: O b j e c t to the form of the 24 question 25 THE COURT REPORTER: Wait a minute. Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000813 1 Leon H o row itz - C r o s s 215 2 MR. GUSKY: Objection to the form 3 of the question. 4 THE WITNESS: No, I "did not pursue 5 that area. I felt my e x p e r i e n c e with i n d u s t r i a l 6 h y g i e n e , if t h e r e were i n f o r m a t i o n that w e r e 7 p e r t i n e n t to the field that I would have obtained 8 it one way or a n o t h e r in my n a t u r a l work and I 9 d i d not feel this is -- the kind of a b s t r a c t 1 0 that I did have at that time, was the kind of 11 new thing that you get every day about new 12 p r o d u c t s . T y p e of t h i n g that r e q u i r e d m o r e study,, 13 m o r e r e s e a r c h , and as -- as a p r a c t i t i o n e r in 1 4 the f i eld, p r i m a r i l y in the dust c o n t r o l area, 1 5 it was not -- my c u r i o s i t y was not p i n c h e d 1 6 e n o u g h to do that, no. 17 Y MR . CO H E N : 18 Well, let me ask - 19 If th a t ' s the word. 20 -- at the ti m e you first came with K e a s b e y and 21 atti s o n , you had no k n o w l e d g e of an a l l e g e d r e l a t i o n s h i F 22 e t w e en c a r c i n o m a and a s b e s t o s e x p o s u r e ; is that 23 re ct? 24 I had no k n o w l e d g e of that. 25 Were you aware of w h e t h e r IHF had p u b l i s h e d Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000814 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 216 2 abstracts going -- going back thirty years, twenty-five, 3 t h irty years, prior to 1960, that a d d r e s s e d that 4 subj ect? 5 A. Up to that time, I was not aware. 6 q. Now, I believe that you stated that the first 7 time you ever bec a m e aware of an a l l e g e d health hazard 8 i n s o f a r as c a n c e r and a s b e s t o s e x p o s u r e was c o n c e r n e d , 9 was in or ab o u t S e p t e m b e r of 19 6 0 , w hen Dr. Knox 1 0 s p o k e with you; is that c o r r e c t ? 11 A. No, the r e f e r e n c e to asking the i n s u r a n c e 12 c o m p a n y to g i v e me any m a t e r i a l was p r i o r to Dr. 13 Knox' v i s i t . 14 q . Well, as a result of that i n f o r m a t i o n that was 15 given to you by A m e r i c a n Mutual, did you learn that 16 t h e r e w e r e a r t i c l e s w h i c h s u g g e s t e d that c a n c e r 17 was a d i s e a s e a s s o c i a t e d w i t h a s b e s t o s e x p o s u r e ? 18 A. As I said, those a r t i c l e s meant to me a - 19 an i n i t i a l d i s c o v e r y that r e q u i r e d m o r e s t u d y . And, 20 t h e r e f o r e , it was the f i r s t i n f o r m a t i o n of any -- any 21 i l l u s i o n or a l l u d i n g . t o the fact that t h e r e was a 22 r e l a t i o n s h i p . It w a s n ' t u n t i l K n o x came and m e n t i o n e d 23 that it was m o r e s u b s t a n t i a t e d t h a n the few a b s t r a c t s 24 t h a t l h a d r e a d . 25 3. Okay. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000815 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 217 2 Well, you used the word, initial 3 studies, would you consider studies that had gone 4 back t h i r t y years to be initial studies from the 5 s tandpoint of 1960? 6 MR. GALLO: Move to strike unless 7 a f o u n d a t i o n can be shown. 8 MR. COH E N : I'll be h a p p y to 9 show-- 1 0 MR. G A L L O : At the t i m e of t r i a l . 11 I don't need the explanation now. 12 THE WITNESS: They are -- 1 3 MR. COHEN: Well, wait a minute -- 1 4 e x c u s e me, the w i t n e s s is not g o i n g to be here 1 5 at the time of the t rial, t hat's the e n t i r e 1 6 r e a s o n we're taking it. I'll be happy to show 17 those documents which deal with the questions 18 I'm asking, no problem. 19 MR. GALLO: I just want to p r e s e r v e 20 an o b j e c t i o n for the record. Why don't you 21 continue? 22 M R. COHEN: Well, I'm not going to 23 -- no, then you either withdraw your objection, 24 or I'll proceed with the abstracts, because - 25 MR. GALLO: Proceed with the abstracts, Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000816 1 Leon H o ro w it z Cross 218 2 then. 3 MR . COHEN: Okay. 4 . Let me just ask, if I may, w h e t h e r 5 there was a question pending that was unanswered 6 prior to getting into this. 7 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes, there 8 was. 9 M R . COHEN: Okay, go ahead. 10 THE COURT REPORTER: Question: You 11 used the word, initial studies, would you 12 consider studies that had gone back thirty 13 ye a r s to be initial studies from the s t a n d p o i n t 1 4 of 1960? 1 5 MR. MASON: I o b j e c t to the form of 16 that question. We're not concerned about what 17 this w i t n e s s c o n s i d e r s as an ea r l y study. 18 MR. COHEN: Well, we are, when the 19 witness suggests that there were only initial 2 0 s t u d i e s b e i n g done in 1960, w h i c h may have 21 p r i c k e d his i n t e r e s t in a c e r t a i n area. And 22 I'm just t r y i n g to d e f i n e what he me a n s by 23 initial. 24 MR. BROMBERG: He said pinched. 25 MR. MASON: That was not his testimony. . Castleman.CERT000817 Knipes-Cohen Associates 1 Leon H o r o w it z Cross 219 2 MR. BROMBERG: Excuse me. 3 MR. MASON: That was not his testimony. 4 THE WITNESS: As a i n d u s t r i a l hygienist 5 w h o s e s p e c i a l t y is e n g i n e e r i n g , I d e p e n d , I and 6 all i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t 's who have any p a r t i c u l a r 7 s p e c i a l t y d e pend on other skills for i n f o r m a t i o n 8 such as this. A s b e s t o s was not the only subject 9 that had r e f e r e n c e s to a b s t r a c t s and papers that 1 0 may have been going on for thirty years. The 11 fact that the states, the ACGIH and all the 12 a u t h o r i t i e s that we lean upon for i n f o r m a t i o n 1 3 and guidance and help, did not accept these 14 studies of twenty, thirty years before s u f f i 1 5 c i e n t l y enou g h to change their t h r e s h o l d limit 16 v a l u e s , and to m a k e it well k n o w n was s u f f i c i e n t 17 for me, as an i n d i v i d u a l , not to make the 18 r e s e a r c h and to a c c e p t t hem as b e i n g more 19 p e r t i n e n t t h a n the p r e v a i l i n g k n o w l e d g e at the 20 time. . 21 BY M R . C O H E N : 22 q . So you, in e s s e n c e are a g r e e i n g with the 23 s t a t e m e n t that was m a d e on E x h i b i t 29, that we s p o k e 24 a b o u t , and I'm r e f e r r i n g s p e c i f i c a l l y to p a r a g r a p h 25 n u m b e r two, "Dr. Knox s a i d that you U.S. I n d u s t r y in Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000818 1 Leon Ho ro w it z Cross 220 2 e n e r a l does not want to accept the fact that a s b e s t o s 3 s a very hazardous, and they will accept any doctor s 4 iew, if he i n t i m a t e d that it is not h a z a r d o u s . 5 MR. BROMBERG: Objection. 6 THE WITNESS: That's your conclusion, 7 not mine. 8 MR. BRO M B E R G : Hold it, o b j e c t i o n on 9 the g r o u n d the q u e s t i o n is n u m b e r one, a r g u m e n t a 10 t i v e , n u m b e r two, it asks the w i t n e s s to c h a r a c 11 ter i z e so mebody else's t estimony, who hasn t 12 g i v e n t e s t i m o n y , who, in f a c t , is in o n l y as a 13 r e s u l t of i n c l u d e d h e a r s a y , if it's in at all. 1 4 and it's entirely improper question. 1 5 MR. C O H E N : Okay. W e l l , it w a s n ' t 1 6 i m p r o p e r when it was a s k e d b e f o r e , so I ll just 17 let the t e s t i m o n y go with that. 18 MR. COHEN: 1 9 Now, let me, if I can, s i n c e t h e r e was an 20 o b j e c t i o n m a d e by c o u n s e l , I'm g o i n g to have to go 21 t h r o u g h a n u m b e r of d o c u m e n t s -- 22 MR. GALLO: I'm going to o b j e c t to 23 this e n t i r e line of q u e s t i o n i n g , Mr. Cohen. 24 The witness has already said that his first 25 c o n t a c t with this s u b j e c t was in 1960. He had Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000819 1 Leon Horowi t z Cross 221 2 a l r e a d y g i v e n us the d a t e s o f his f i r s t r e c e i p t 3 of IHF d o c u m e n t s . It's i m p r o p e r for you to 4 questi o n him on documents that he's already 5 said, h e has never r e c eived or seen. 6 MR . C O H E N : Not when you r aise an 7 o b j ect ion a s to the basis of my q u e s t i o n i n g 8 And I ask you either to w i t h d r a w your o b j e c t i o n , 9 in w h i c h case I will not p r o c e e d , or I can't - 10 it's not s o m e t h i n g I can go over with the witness 11 at a later time, as you sugg e s t . 12 MR. MASON: So, what are you go i n g to 13 do, are you g o i n g to ask him w h e t h e r he ever 1 4 saw this or w h e t h e r he c o n s i d e r s this an e a rly 1 5 study? 16 M R . C O H E N : I'm g o i n g to ask him if he 17 has any familiarity with the materials that 18 have b e e n in e x i s t e n c e r e l a t i n g to a n u m b e r of fac 1 9 tors going back as far as 1931. 20 MR. GALLO: My o b j e c t i o n to the lack 21 of f o u n d a t i o n still stands unless you can 22 d e m o n s t r a t e the f o u n d a t i o n . But it d o e s n ' t have 23 tobedonenow. 24 MR . COHEN: Well, the foundation -- 25 MR . GALLO : -- you can lay the founda Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000820 1 Leon Hor owi t z - Cross 222 2 tion Later, and I will withdraw.the objection. 3 MR. BROMBERG: Further object on 4 the groundsof relevancy. 5 MR. COHEN: Let's g o o f f -- Let's 6 go off the video. 7 MR. STRAIN: We're going off the 8 r e c o r d , and the t i m e is 3:43. 9 (Whereupon the following discussions 10 were held off the videotape record.) 11 MR. COHEN: If you're t e l ling me that 12 y o u ' r e o b j e c t i n g to a lack of a basis - 1 3 MR. GALLO: Right. 14 MR. C O H E N : O k a y , if the w i t n e s s - - 1 5 if t h i s is a de b e n e d e p o s i t i o n , then I can't 1 6 e s t a b l i s h that ba s i s at a later time. I e i t h e r 1 7 have to do it now -- 18 MR . G A L L O : S u r e , you can, if t h e r e 19 is a b a s i s for the q u e s t i o n , and you d e m o n s t r a t e 20 it to me now or l a t e r , the o b j e c t i o n has to be 21 overruled. 22 MR. COHEN: Well, the only way I can 23 e s t a b l i s h the b a s i s is d o i n g it now. S u p p o s e 24 I feel I've established a basis, and he's here 25 to a n s w e r q u e s t i o n s . Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000821 1 Leon Ho r owi t z Cross 223 2 MR. G A L L O : W e l l , w h a t ' s he g o i n g to 3 say, yeah, that's a document that contains 4 c e r t a i n w r i t i n g on it, but I've n e v e r seen it. 5 MR . COHEN: WeLL, that wiLL 6 establish -- 7 MR . GALLO : Show me, maybe I'LL 8 w i t h d r a w the obj ection 9 MR . MASON: Find out what he's going 1 0 to ask him. 11 THE WITNESS: That's a L L right. I'm 12 not an e x p e r t w i t n e s s , so it d o e s n ' t m a t t e r . 13 MR . COHEN: T hat's right. Those are 14 IHF abstracts 1 5 MR . GALLO : Show me what wiLL justify 16 that question about cancer? 17 MR. COHEN: I'LL be very happy to do 18 it. . 19 MR. GALLO: An IHF abstract about 20 a s b e s t o s c a u s i n g c a n c e r , go i n g back to 1930 - 21 MR. COHEN: 1935, 1935, 1936, here 22 why d o n ' t you read the w h o l e t a b L e t , b e c a u s e it 23 comes up in Later -- one of your Later 24 exhibits. 25 I want to at this j u n c t u r e if you can Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000822 1 Leon Horowi tz Cr os s 224 2 a l l o w o t h e r c o u n s e l , s i n c e it looks like I'm 3 going to be the longest, and I'll relinquish. 4 MR. MASON: Go ahead, ask your next 5 question. 6 MR. GALLO: Go ahead. 7 MR. COHEN: Well, let me just state, 8 I was a s k e d by c o u n s e l if I will y i e l d the 9 fl o o r , as they say, and - 1 0 MR. GALLO: All right, whatever you 11 want to do. 12 MR. COHEM: I've just been as k e d by 13 o t h e r P l a i n t i f f s ' c o u n s e l to -- if we can go 14 out of t i m e , so at this p o i n t , I'll s t o p my 1 5 e x a m i n a t i o n and defer to the g e n t l e m a n from 1 6 Phi ladelphia. 17 MR . GALLO : Who 's n ext ? 18 MR . COHEN: Wait a minute, let me just 1 9 m a k e that s t a t e m e n t a g a i n on the v i d e o , so it 20 will be at least -- 21 MR. MASON: I object to this switching 22 of counsel. I think it's going to make things 23 very confusing, both on the record and on future . 24 vi d e o t a p e s . 25 MR. B R O M B E R G : I join in that. Knipes-C_oh, en A. ssoc.iat.es Castleman.CERT000823 1 Leon Ho r o wi t z Cross 225 2 We started out giving Plaintiffs' counsel 3 c o m p l e t e choice of who went first. T h e y agr e e d 4 and we've now started with one. Now, switch 5 to a n o t h e r one and go. It s e e m s to me it w i l l 6 be only c o n f u s i n g to the w i t n e s s , and only delay 7 the p r o c e d u r e . I think we ought to finish one 8 Plaintiff, and then continue. 9 MR. GUSKY: I join in Mr. B r o m b e r g ' s 1 0 objection. 11 MR. BROMBERG: It's now 3:49 12 a c c o r d i n g to my watch. 1 3 MR. MASON: Okay, when did the witness 14 say he has to end today? 1 5 THE WITNESS: I can get a later 16 plane. 17 MR . COHEN: How late? 18 MR . SHE IN: I felt that if w e did our 1 9 q u e s t i o n i n g now, p e r h a p s in the i n t e r i m , you 20 w o u l d be a b le to work this out. And i t m ight 21 save t im e i n the long run, but due to the o b j e c 22 t i o n s , w e will grin and bear it. 23 THE W I T N E S S : N i n e - f i f t e e n i s my 24 last f lig h t , i f I can make it. 25 MR. STRAIN: We are now back on the Knipes-Cohen Associ.ates Castleman.CERT000824 1 Leon Ho r owi t z Cross 226 2 r e c o r d , and the time is 3:52. 3 MR. COHEN:. Mr. H o r o w i t z , we just 4 took a very short break off the video record, 5 and it,was r e q u e s t e d because of some s c h e d u l i n g 6 problems, that I relinquish the examination now 7 to c o - c o u n s e l . So, I w i l 1 do that, and we will 8 come back s o m e t i m e later t o g e t h e r to disc u s s 9 these matters further. 1 0 Thankyou. 11 BY M R . S H E I N : 12 Q . Mr. H o r o w i t z , my name is J o s e p h Shei n , and I 13 rep r e s e n t the P l a i n t i ff in this c a s e , M elvi n T i m b e r s , 14 who is d e c e a s e d . 1 5 D id you by chance know Mr. T i m b e r s ? 1 6 A. I did not know Mr. Timbers. 17 Q . He w o r k e d , to p o s s i b l y re f r e s h y o u r r e c o l l e c t i o n , 18 for K e a s b e y - M a t t i son and t h e n for C e r t a i n t e e d . You 19 di d not k n o w him? 20 A. I did not know him. 21 q . N o w , y o u ' v e t old us that you s t a r t e d for 22 K e a s b e y - H a t t i son in 1960; is that c o r r e c t ? 23 A. 24 Q. T h a t is corre c t . What product containing asbestos were they 25 m a n u f a c t u r i n g at that t i m e ? Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000825 1 Leon Ho r owi t z Cross 227 2 A. In 1960? 3 Q. Yes, sir. 4 A. T h e y w e r e m a n u f a c t u r i n g a s b e s t o s sh i n g l e s , s i d i n g 5 in p l a n t 1 , I t h i n k it was, i n s u l a t i o n m a t e r i a l in 6 plant 4, pipe i n s u l a t i o n m a t e r i a l , a paper p r o d u c t used 7 for the electrical industry, asbestos paper product, a 8 rubber product containing asbestos for gasketting, 9 asbestos cement pipe and textile, asbestos textile. 10 Q. Did these p r o d u c t s have any p a r t i c u l a r type of 11 t r a d e n a m e that y o u can r e c a l l at this t i m e ? 12 A. Each company used its own tradename. I believe 13 J o h n s - M a n v i lie's t r a d e n a m e for a s b e s t o s c e m e n t - - 14 MR. CREEDON: O b j e c t i o n , move to 1 5 strike. 1 6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, but another - - 17 everybody has trade names. 18 MR. SHEIN: I understand that. 19 BY MR . SHE IN: 20 Q. I'm not asking about Johns-Manvilie's tradename, 21 t h o u g h . 22 A . I'm sorry, that' s the only tradename I know. 23 Q . 24 A. We know those. That's the only tradename I know, I'm sorry. 25 Q . O k a y , you don 1t know any of K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n ' s ^K n.ipes-Lonen Associates Castleman.CERT000826 1 Leon Horowi tz Cr oss 228 2 particular tradenames or products? 3 A. No . 4 Q. Now, b e g i n n i n g in I960, with the first p r o d u c t s 5 you t o l d us a b o u t , tell us what p e r c e n t a g e of a s b e s t o s 6 they contained, each contained? 7 NR. B R O M B E R G : Now, are we talking 8 about A m b l e r or the whole Country? 9 BY MR . SHEIN: 10 Q . Let's talk about Ambler first 11 MR. MASON: Are we talking about the 1 2 Plant where Mr. Timb e r s worked? 13 MR. SHEIN: That's what we're trying 14 to do, plant number 8 . 15 BY MR. SHEIN: 16 Q. Plant 8 , what did they manufacture? 17 A. They -- Plant 8 manufactured asbestos cement 18 p i p e o n l y . T h e y u s e d the raw m a t e r i a l s a s b e s t o s , 19 which came in -- in bags of a h u n d r e d p e r cent a s b e s t o s 20 Q . Where did they come from? 21 A. Various places, South Africa that I know of. 22 Q. What names were on those bags? 23 A . I don't recall the names. 24 Q . Y o u d o n 't recall? 1 ' 25 A . Cassiar, that's-about the only one I remember Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000827 1 Leon Ho r owi t z - Cross 229 2 Q . You r e c a l l C a s s i a r , s e e i n g it on a d a i l y 3 basis? 4 A. I -- it was not my f u n c t i o n to r e c o r d the n a m e . 5 I k n e w we p i c k e d blue f i b e r and w h i t e f i b e r and it was 6 from d i f f e r e n t sources, so I know some came from 7 Canada. Where they came from, I don't know. 8 Q. B u t , you know some came from C a s s i a r ; is that 9 correct? 1 0 A. I believe yes. 11 Q . Okay. 1 2 Now, how much a s b e s t o s was in the 13 f i n i s h e d p r o d u c t from p l a n t 8 ? 1 4 A. The.finished product contained about fourteen 15 percent asbestos. 1 6 Q. And, what does that mean, when we say -- we've 17 heard today p e r c e n t a g e s of a s b estos. E x a c t l y what does 18 that m e a n as far as a w o r k e r c u t t i n g it is c o n c e r n e d ? 19 MR. GUSKY: Objection. 20 THE COURT REPORTER: Who was that? 21 3Y MR. S H E I N : 22 la -- or using the a s b e s t o s , what does that 23 ne a n , f o u r t e e n p e r c e n t ? 24 MR. BROMBERG: Objection, there hasn't 25 been any testimony about anybody cutting asbestos, Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000828 1 2 3 4 5 BY MR 6 Q. 7 8 9 1 0 11 12 13 14 1 5 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Leon Horowitz - Cross 230 ifthatcanbedone. MR. SHEIN: AIL right, well, I'LL go into that. SHEIN: T h i s p i p e , is it in p a r t i c u l a r L e n g t h s ? M R . - G U S K Y : I'm going to object to the r e l e v a n c e of this e n t i r e Line of q u e s t i o n i n g , based on the direct e x a mination. MR. S H E I N : Your o b j e c t i o n is n o t e d , Counse L MR. GALLO: I'LL object also, beyond the scope. MR. MASON: I'LL join in that. MR. SHEIN: T h i s is a p a r t y . MR. LOCKS: Just so we don't waste the record, relevance and materiality.clearly are o b j e c t i o n s -th a't are r e s e r v e d u n t i l the t i m e of t r i a l , and are d e b a t e d at that p o i n t . MR. B R O M B E R G : T h a t c e r t a i n l y is not my u n d e r s t a n d i n g . MR. GUSKY: Not on videotape. MR. CRE E D O N : ALL o b j e c t i o n s must be w a i v e d or raised. That was my u n d e r s t a n d i n g . MR. COHEN: It's not the nature of i Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000829 1 Leon Ho r owi t z Cross 231 2 b e i n g a v i d e o t a p e , it's the n a t u r e of it b e i n g 3 a de bene esse. 4 MR. C R E E D O N : W a i v e it or r a i s e it. 5 MR. L O C K S : G e n t l e m e n , if we have a 6 multiple Plaintiff deposition with multiple 7 time pe r i o d s of e x p o s u r e and m u l t i p l e d i f f e r e n t 8 p r o d u c t s , and that is what y o u ' v e got in this 9 ca s e , how could you possibly make materiality and 10 r e l e v a n c e o b j e c t i o n s to every single thing, 11 whe n the time p a r a m e t e r s wo u l d be d i f f e r e n t for 12 everyperson? 13 MR. GALLO: It's beyond the scope 1 4 of the d i r e c t . It all is. 1 5 MR. LOCKS: But, I m e a n , as far as I 16 was concerned, that portion might have 17 b e e n p r e s e r v e d . M a y b e I'm w r o n g . And if I'm 18 w r o n g , go right ahead. I'm just trying to point 1 9 something out. Excuse'me, Joe. 20 MR. SHEIN: I think I can short cut 21 this a bit. Are we still on the record, or 22 on the tape? 23 MR. STRAIN: Yes. 24 BY MR. S H E I N : 25 Q. In your f u n c t i o n i n g of e x a m i n i n g the various Knipes-Coheii Associates Castleman.CERT000830 1 Leon Horowitz Cr oss 232 2 p l a n t s , I t a k e it that you at t i m e s o b s e r v e d the 3 m a n n e r in w h i c h the raw a s b e s t o s was m o v e d , o n c e it 4 arri ve d ? 5 A. Yes. 6 a. And that was r e m oved by f o r k l i f t , wasn't it? 7 A. Most of the time. 8 Q. From one section to another? 9 A. Most of the time, yes. 1 O a. So, that -- 11 A . From the r a i l r o a d cars to the plant -- 12 a . Yes. 13 A . -- f rom t h e p l a n t ' s s t o r a g e , fro m the s t o r a g e , to 14 the h o p p e r , w h e r e it was o p e n e d and b a g g e d and d r o p p e d 15 into the hopper, yes. 16 a . And, what was the f u n c t i o n of a f o r k l i f t 17 o p e r a t o r in P l a n t 8 ? 18 A . Vari ous f u n c t i o n s , and that was one of them. 19 And t h e r e ' s m a n y o t h e r f u n c t i o n s , such as p i c k i n g -- 20 p i c k i n g up the f i n i s h e d pi p e , b r o k e n pipe and so on. 21 a . And, how was this raw asbestos bagged? 22 A . M o s t l y in a paper w r a p p i n g , a paper bag. 23 a . And, of course, we're talking about one hundred 24 p e r c e n t a s b e s t o s , w h e n we talk about raw a s b e s t o s , 25 a r e n ' t we? Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000831 1 Leon Horowi t z Cross 233 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What color was it? 4 A. Mostly, the white color. 5 Q. When the finished product was ready for 6 del i v e r y to w h e r e v e r it was g o i n g , was it b o x e d ? 7 A. No, it was not b o x e d . 8 Q. How did it leave the p l a n t ? 9 A. I'm sorry, may I retract? 10 Q. Yes,sir. . 11 A . They made couplings, which may have been cr o X 12 ed . 13 Q . W h a t is a c o u p l i n g ? . 14 A. C o u p l i n g is w h e r e you join two p i e c e s of pipe, 15 and you have a smaller section, and some of the 1 6 couplings may have been boxed. 17 Q. And, were t h e y - - did they have asbestos 18 c o n t e n t , a l s o , the c o u p l i n g s ? 1 9 A. It was a h a r d , so l i d p r o d u c t of a s b e s t o s 20 c e m e n t , w h i c h c o n t a i n e d f o u r t e e n -- ab o u t f o u r t e e n 21 p e r c e n t a s b e s t o s . 22 Q. Now, that was also boxed? That was boxed? 23 A. I b e l i e v e s o m e t i m e s it was b o x e d . 24 Q. 25 A. A n d , the p i p e , how did it leave the p l a n t ? It left on l arge t r a i l e r s , and it was p i l e d up Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000832 1 Leon Horowi tz Cr os s 234 2 in a c e r t a i n way and tied d o w n . 3 MR. B R O M B E R G : Can e have, a c o n t i n u i n g 4 objection-- 5 MR. SHEIN: Sure. 6 MR. BR O M B E R G : -- to the cross being 7 b e y o n d the scope of the direct? 8 MR. SHEIN: Sure. 9 MR. BROMBERG: Okay. 10 BY MR. SHEIN: 11 Q. W h a t Length was this p i p e ? 12 A. I think they had varying Lengths, but maybe 13 they ran a r o u n d t w e n t y feet, s o m e t h i n g Like that. 14 Q. Now, during the time that you worked for 15 K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n , did you ever see on any of the 16 p i p e s , or on any of the coup Li ngs in b o x e s any type of 17 c a u t i o n a r y or w a r n i n g L a b e L ? 18 A. None that I remember. 19 MR. GALLO: Objection. 20 BY MR. SHEIN: 21 Q. After 1962 -- 22 MR. STRAIN: Excuse me, gentlemen, 23 w e ' r e g o i n g off the r e c o r d , and the t i m e is 24 4:01 . " 25 (Whereupon the following was held off Knipes-Cohen A ssoci^ates Castleman.CERT000833 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 235 2 the videotape record.) 3 MR. MASON: I just want to put on the 4 record, my o b j e c t i o n to any q u e s t i o n s by anyone 5 which were not within the scope of direct . 6 examination/ that includes past questions and 7 future q u e s t i o n s / so I don't have to keep 8 repeati ng t h i s all the t im e . 9 MR . GALLO : Mr . S he in , w i l l you 1 0 agree that w e all h a v e a continuing obj ection 11 onthatbasis? 12 MR. SHEIN: On what basis? 13 MR. GALLO: That the questions 1 4 into the m a n u f a c t u r i n g p r o c e s s / length of the 15 p i p e , et c e t e r a , are b e y o n d the s c o p e of 1 6 direct. 17 MR. SHEIN: I don't agree they're 18 beyond the scope of direct. 19 MR. GALLO: Well, do you agree that 20 we have a continuing objection? 21 MR. SHEIN: Yeah. 22 MR. MASON: And my o b j e c t i o n was 23 b r o a d e r than that. That was to a n y o n e ' s 24 q u e s t i o n , past of f u t u r e , that is b e y o n d the 25 scope of the direct, so we don't have to keep ' Knipes-Cohen Associates : Castleman.CERT000834 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 236 2 repeating this all the time. 3 M R . SHEIN: Sure. 4 MR. BROMBERG: Are you making this 5 witness your own witness? 6 MR. SHEIN: I never make a witness 7 my own, unless I have to. 8 THE W I T N E S S : What do you have to 9 offer? 1 0 , MR. B R O M B E R G : I take that to be 11 negative. 12 MR. SHEI N : Read me the last q u e s t i o n . 13 (Whereupon the court reporter read 14 back the last question.) 1 5 M R . S T R A I N : T h i s is the b e g i n n i n g of 16 t a p e n u m b e r five, and the t i m e is 4:04. 17 MR . SHEIN: 18 During that same time period, sir, from '60 19 n t i L '62, did you e v e r see any c a u t i o n a r y L a b e l s of any 20 i nd on the raw a s b e s t o s f i b e r that was c o m i n g in 21 ag s i n t o the p l a n t ? 22 MR. BROMBERG: How can you put a label 23 on a piece of fiber? 24 MR. SHEIN: That's a very good 25 question. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000835 1 Leon Ho r o wi t z Cross 237 2 BY MR . SHEIN: 3 Q. On the bags of raw a s b e s t o s fiber. 4 A. I don't recall seeing any warning. 5 Q. Now, t h a t f i b e r that was c o m i n g in, di d you 6 also see in a d d i t i o n to white fiber, blue f i b e r ? 7 A. In p l a n t 8 ? In p l a n t 8 ? 8 Q. Yes, sir. 9 A. I don't rem e m b e r blue fiber in plant 8 , I do 1 0 r e m e m b e r it in p l a n t 4. 11 Q . In p l a n t 4? 12 A . Yes. 13 Q . Now, after 1962, when Certainteed took over. 14 and y o u r e m a i n e d in your s a m e o f f i c e , and b a s i c a l l y , 1 5 I g a t h e r , at y o u r same job; is that c o r r e c t ? 16 A. For six m o n t h s , we were in l imbo, u n t i l we 17 f o u n d out that we w e r e r e - h i r e d . But, e s s e n t i a l l y , 18 t h a t ' s t h e same. 1 9 Q. What products did Certainteed manufacture from 20 that s a m e p l a n t ? 21 A. A s b e s t o s c e m e n t , plant 8 , was the only one in 22 A m b l e r t hat C e r t a i n t e e d P r o d u c t s p i c k e d up. 23 Q. 24 A. What did they manufacture? Asbestos cement pipe, same product. 25 Q. The exact same p r o d u c t as b e f o r e ? Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000836 1 Leon Ho r owi t z Cross 238 2 A. The exact same p r o d u c t as before. 3 Q. 4 A. With the same content? With the same content. 5 Q. Did they manufacture the other product 6 refe rred to, co upli ng s ? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Or g a s k e t s? 9 A. That was the same. 1 0 MR. BRUCH: O b j e c t i o n , no m e n t i o n of 11 gaskets. 12 13 THE WIT N E S S : No gaskets . 14 BY MR . S H E I N : 1 5 Q. No gas k e t s , c o u p l i n g s ? 1 6 A. Couplings, they did have a rubber gasket, but 17 that w a s n ' t m e n t i o n e d b e f o r e . 18 Q . Okay. 1 9 A. That was brought from outside any way. 20 a. And, were those couplings boxed? 21 A. A f t e r b e i n g p r o d u c e d ? T h e same way as b e f o r e , 22 some -- some w e r e , s m a l l c o u p l i n g s were. 23 3. And, between 1962 and 1968, did you ever see 24 any c a u t i o n a r y label on the b o x e s of c o u p l i n g s ? 25 |A. I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r s e e i n g any. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000837 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - Cross 239 2 Q. And, did you ever see any type of c a u t i o n a r y 3 stamp on the pipe? 4 A. I don't remember seeing any. 5 Q. Now, when you first began to work for Keasbey 6 and Mat t ison, you knew, did you not, sir, that they 7 were a w h o l l y owned s u b s i d i a r y of T u r n e r and Newa l l ? 8 ' MR. MASON: Objection* 9 BY MR . SHEIN: 10 Q. Did you know that? 11 A. I believe I was told that; yes. 12 MR . M A S O N : Move to s t r i k e . 13 BY MR . S H E I N : 14 Q. Now, who told you that? 1 5 A. My fellow workers. 16 Q. And, d u r i n g the c o u r s e of your e m p l o y m e n t , in 17 the two y e a r s f r o m 1 9 6 0 to 1 9 6 2 , e x c e p t for the v i s i t 18 from Dr. K n o x , did you e v e r r e c e i v e , sir, any i n f o r m a 19 tion at all w i t h r e g a r d to a s b e s t o s h a z a r d s from 20 T u r n e r and N e w a l l ? 21 MR. MASON: Objection. 22 THE WITNESS: I had no r e l a t i o n s h i p 23 w i t h T u r n e r and N e w a l l at all, so I r e c e i v e d / 24 noinformation. 25 BY MR. S H E I N : : Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000838 ,1 Leon Horowitz Cross 241 2 ' u r n e r - N e w a l l . I d i d n ' t know it was p a r t of T u r n e r - 3 Mewall. I t h o u g h t it was a s e p a r a t e , s c i e n t i f i c 4 organization. 5 1. I'm talking about research that Turner and 6 iewall, itself, did, were you aware of any research 7 that Turner and Newall did? 8 MR. MASON: Objection. 9 THE WITNESS: No, I did not. 10 3Y MR SHEIN: 11 3. Now, e x a c t l y when was it that Dr. Knox came 12 to v i s i t ? 13 A . M o s t l y from l o o k i n g at t h e s e m e m o s , it a p p e a r s 14 that his v i s i t was s o m e w h e r e a rou n d J u n e of 1960. 15 3 . Ju n e of 1960 16 And, did you know he was coming to 17 v i s i t b e f o r e h a n d ? 18 A. I was told, and i nvited to the meeti n g , maybe 19 a w e e k b e f o r e . And t h a t ' s how I k n e w , yes. 20 U. And, who did you u n d e r s t a n d e x a c t l y he was, what 21 was his c a p a c i t y , in o t h e r w o r d s ? 22 A. I u n d e r s t o o d that he -- I t h o u g h t at the time 23 w o r k e d for T u r n e r and N e w a l l , and was t h e i r M e d i c a l 24 A d v i s o r . 25 MR. MASON: O b j e c t i o n , move to strike, Knipes-Cohen A ssoci.ates Castleman.CERT000839 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 242 2 not responsive. 3 MR. SH E I N : 4 How did you Learn that, sir? 5 I imagine I was told that. I don't know. 6 MR. MASON: Move to strike. 7 Y MR. SHEIN: 8. Did you, personally, have discussions with 9 r . Kno x? 1 0" . The m a j o r i t y of the m e e t i n g was him -- d i s c u s s i n g 11 he w h o l e p r o b l e m , and it was only at the end of the 12 eeting that he showed me a cross s e c t i o n of a lung 13 hich he p o i n t e d out had a m e s o t h e l i o m a in it. 14 t was a v e r y s h o r t d i s c u s s i o n . 15 . And, he told you that that was from asbestos 16 x p o s u r e ? 17 . The implication was that, that's right. ' 18 . What did the r e m a i n d e r of the m e e t i n g consist 19 f? 20 . That was the end of the meeting. 21 . How long did this meeting take? 22 . I w o u l d say about an hour or two. 23 . Where did -- where was the meeting held? 24 . I believe our Engineering Office, and the 25 taff O f f i c e was in a s m a l l b u i l d i n g on the m a i n s t r e e t Knipes-Cohen A~s~soc|iates Castleman.CERT000840 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 240 2 g. You received nothing? 3 A. 4 g# No. Did you ever receive/ sir/ between 1960 and 5 1962/ from T u r n e r and Newall, any type of m edical 6 b u l l e t i n s / of any kind, that n o tified you of the 7 latest d e v e l o p m e n t s , m e d i c a l l y or s c i e n t i f i c a l l y , 8 of p o s s i b l e a s b e s t o s hazards? 9 MR. MASON: Objection. 1 0 THE WITNESS: I had no information 11 such as that. . . 12 BY MR. SHEIN: 13 q . You knew, didn't you, that Turner andNewall 14 had a R e s e a r c h D e p a r t m e n t or D i v i s i o n in E n g l a n d ? 15 \ MR.MASON: Objection. 16 THE WITNESS: When Dr. Knox visited, 17 t I found that out, yes. 18 BY M R . S H E I N : 19 q . And, did you find out how extensive their 20 r e s e a r c h w a s ? 21 A. At the t i m e , I d i d n ' t know it was T u r n e r - Newal l 's 22 and I d i d n ' t find out how e x t e n s i v e it was. 23 q . W h e n you say, at the time you d i d n ' t k n o w it 24 was T u r n e r and N e w a l l , w h a t do you m e a n by t h a t ? 25 A. You said this R e s e a r c h Counsel was part of Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000841 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - Cross 243 2 in A m b l e r , and this was in a room like t h i s , on the 3 second floor, 4 Q. Was it held at the plant? 5 A. 6 Gt. No, no t a t the plant. How far was the plant from where the meeting 7 was held? 8 A. About a block away from the main line. 9 Q. And, d i d Dr. Knox advise you that the MAC, the 10 m a x i m u m a l l o w a b l e c o n c e n t r a t i o n , 'in E n g l a n d was less 11 t h a n in the U n i t e d S t a t e s ? 12 A . I don't recall specifically talking about that 13 s u b j e c t to him, but the i m p l i c a t i o n was that in the 14 U n i t e d S t a t e s , we w e r e not m e a s u r i n g a s b e s t o s the p r o p e r 1 5 way, and that t hey w ere d o i n g so in E n g l a n d . 1 6 Gt. And, when did you know that? 17 A . I b e l i e v e at that m e e t i n g we d i s c u s s e d that. 18 But, I ' m not s u r e . 19 q . Now, was any line of c o m m u n i c a t i o n set up b e t w e e n 20 you, or your p l a n t , you be i n g the I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n i s t 21 t h e r e , a n d T u r n e r and N e w a l l in, E n g l a n d , as a r e s u l t 22 o f t h i s m e e t i n g ? 23 MR. MASON: I object to the form 24 of the q u e s t i o n . It's two q u e s t i o n s in one. 25 --------------- -- THE WITNESS: No, there was not, and I ~~ Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000842 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 2 44 2 was the Dust C o n t r o l E n g i n e e r at the time. 3 BY MR . S H E I N : 4 9. W e l l , was t h e r e a M e d i c a l D i r e c t o r at K e a s b e y 5 Matti son? 6 A. Emp loyed fully by K e a s b e y and M a t t i s o n ? 7 a. Yes, sir. 8 A. A h u n d r e d p e r c e n t of the time? 9 9. Yes, sir. 1 O A. No, there was not. 11 9 . And, did Turner and Newall know that? 12 MR . MASON: O b j e c t i o n . 13 THE WITNESS: I have no way o f 14 knowing w hat they knew. 1 5 BY MR . SHEI N: 16 9 . Well, did you m a k e D r . Knox aware of that 17 f a c t ? 18 A. No, there was no o c c a s i o n to do so. 19 q . Was a M e d i c a l D i r e c t o r at the m e e t i n g that was 20 held with Dr. Kn o x ? 21 A. I have no recall about that. 22 Q. You don't reme m b e r one way or the other? 23 A. 24 Q. I don't r e m e m b e r o n e w a y or the other. Was there a part time Medical Director for 25 K e a s b e y - M a t t i son at that t i m e ? Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000843 1 Leon Horowi t z Cr o s s 245 2. Yes, I'm not sure that was his title, but there 3 as a part time M e d i c a l p e r s o n , a d v i s o r or c o n s u l t a n t , 4 f you wish. 5. Did you take Dr. Knox for a tour of the plant? 6. 7. I did not. This would be plant 8 , I'm talking about. 8 A. I did not. 9 Q. Did he r equest that he see that plant? 10 A. Not in my p r e s e n c e . I have no k n o w l e d g e that 11 he r e q u e s t e d it. 12 Q. And, to your k n o w l e d g e , he was not shown it; 13 s that correct? 14 MR. MASON: Objection. 1 5 THE WITNESS: I have no idea whether 1 6 he was s h o w n it or not. 17 Y MR . S H E I N : 18 Q . Did he s how you any i m p r o v e d m e t h o d s of t a k i n g 19 dust c o n t r o l m e a s u r e m e n t s ? 20 A . No, it was not his area of e x p e r t i se, I b e l i e v e , 21 but he did not s h o w me any. 22 Q. 23 24 But, it was d i s c u s s e d ? MR . B R O M B E R G : Objection. T H E W l f N E S S : No, it was not 25 discussed. Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000844 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - Cross 246 2 BY MR. SHEIN: 3 Q. I t h o u g h t you t o l d us a few m o m e n t s ago, sir, 4 that you -- that the English method was different 5 than the A m e r i c a n method for m e asurement. 6 A. 7 Q. 8 A. That's another subject. I see. T h e s u b j e c t of c o n t r o l is not the s a m e as 9 the subject of monitoring. And I was talking about 1 0 the way to ai r s a m p l e . 11 Q . I see. 12 A . At the time. 13 Q . Well, the subj e c t of m o n i t o r i n g was d i s c u s s e d ? 1 4 A. I b e l i e v e I -- it was d i s c u s s e d at that t i m e , 15 yes 16 Q. And, as a result of that d i s c u s s i o n , did you 17 c h a n g e y o u r m e t h o d of m o n i t o r i n g ? 18 A . No . 19 Q. Between 1960 and 1962, did you receive any 20 n o t i c e from T u r n e r and Newall that the p r o d u c t s sh o u l d 21 be l a b e l l e d , s h o u l d have c a u t i o n a r y l a b e l s ? 22 A. I, p e r s o n a l l y , have no - - h a v e no i n f o r m a t i o n 23 i n t h a t a r e a . 24 3 . Did you r e c eive any type of n o t i c e from T u r n e r 25 and N e w a l l as to any t y p e of w a r n i n g t h a t s h o u l d be Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000845 1 Leon Ho r o wi t z Cross 247 2 p l a c e d on a pro d u c t ? 3 A. No, as I said, I had no c o r r e s p o n d e n c e with 4 T u r n e r and .Newa l l, or c o m m u n i c a t i o n s w i t h them. 5 q. And, I gather that none passed across your 6 d e s k in t h o s e two y e a r s ; is that c o r r e c t ? 7 A. C o m m u n i c a t i o n of the type you' r e talking 8 about- 9 S. Yes, sir. 10 A. --' no, n o n e p a s s e d a c r o s s my desk. 11 q . W e l l , did any type of c o m m u n i c a t i o n in t h o s e 12 two y e a r s pass acr o s s your desk from T u r n e r and Newall? 13 A. None passed over my desk. 14 q . Now, you were as k e d a few m o m e n t s ago as to 15 the m e t h o d by which you got the i n f o r m a t i o n you had 16 o n c e y o u j o i n e d the c o m p a n y . And w h e n I say the 17 c o m p a n y , I'm t a l k i n g a b o u t K e a s b e y - M a t t i son.. Did 18 you r e c e i v e a m a g a z i n e c a l l e d A s b e s t o s , that was 19 p u b l i s h e d right here in P h i l a d e l p h i a ? 20 A. I don't recall receiving that, no. 21 Q. 22 A. Have you ever seen it? Vaguely familiar, but I don't really recall 23 it, no. 24 q . Do you know a n y t h i n g about it? 25 A. No, : I do not. _ Knipe_s-Cohen Assoc"iate's Castleman.CERT000846 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - C r o s s 248 2 q. You h a v e u s e d the word tfoday, when we t a l k e d 3 a b o u t m a x i m u m a l l o w a b l e c o n c e n t r a t i o n s , and y o u ' v e calleifJ 4 it a s t a n d a r d . Now, in your d e p o s i t i o n of J o h n s o n 5 ver sus T u r n e r and N e w a l l, and that was taken on 6 J u n e 30, 1 9 8 0 , did you not call it a g u i d e ? 7 A. Yes, I did. 8 Q. A n d , t h a t ' s what it was, w a s n ' t it, it was not 9 an a b s o l u t e figure;' was it? 10 A. 11 Q. Thatistruetoday. Well, today, it's different; isn't it? 12 A. T h e d i f f e r e n c e is so m u l t i p l e that my c o n c e p t 13 of any of t h e s e n u m b e r s is that it is a g u i d e . 14 Q. And that's always been your concept; isn't it? 1 5 A. 1 6 5 . Always been my concept. And, y o u ' v e t o l d us b e f o r e , I b e l i e v e you used 17 the f i g u r e that f o l l o w i n g it, e i g h t y p e r c e n t of the 18 Deop le e x p o s e d w o u l d be c o n s i d e r e d safe? 19 A. T h a t is the c o n c e p t of the A m e r i c a n C o n f e r e n c e 20 of G o v e r n m e n t I n d u s t r i a l H y g i e n i s t s . 21 q . What does that mean with regard to the other 22 w e n t y p e r c e n t ? 23 . W e l l , it m e a n s that if -- in o r d e r to h a v e a 24 a lue that w o u l d p r o t e c t a h u n d r e d p e r c e n t , the level 25 o u l d h a v e to be zero. And t h e r e is no w o r k a b l e way of Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000847 1 Leon Horowi t z Cr o s s 249 2 d o i n g zero, of using zero as a c o n c e p t , b e c a u s e that 3 w o u l d m e a n e l i m i n a t i n g w h a t e v e r m a t e r i a l it is c o m p l e t e l y 4 So, threshold limit values, that name has been changed 5 again, many times, threshold limit values, which allow 6 you to go a b o v e or b e l o w that v a l u e , as long as it 7 a v e r a g e s out on an e i g h t hour day, the c o n c e p t is 8 that if y o u ' r e a b l e to keep it b e l o w t h a t , and g e n e r a l l y , 9 when you aim for that, you ' r e much -- you try to be 1 0 m u c h b e l o w t h a t , that y o u ' l l --- you will at least 11 p r o t e c t e i g h t y p e r c e n t of the people. T h e r e are 12 twenty p e r c e n t , or certain number of p eople, that have 13 g r e a t e r s u s c e p t i b i l i t y t h a n o t h e r p e o p l e , and that you 14 cannot in p o s i t i v e way say that a c e r t a i n n u m b e r you 15 pick will protect a hundred percent. It's a 16 scientific figure. 1 7 MR. C O H E N : I just want to p o s e an 18 o b j e c t i o n as to any b e l i e f on the part of 1 9 the w i t n e s s that even this u t i l i z a t i o n of the 20 T L V or MAC is g o i n g to p r o t e c t e i g h t y p e r c e n t 21 of the p e o p l e . I d i r e c t that with r e g a r d to 22 carcinoma, specifically, and I think it's 23 t o t a l l y i n a c c u r a t e , and I o b j e c t to it. 24 MR. SHE I N : In fact, t h a t ' s my next 25 question. Knipes-Cohen A ssocitates Castleman.CERT000848 1 Leon Ho r owi t z Cross 250 2 MR. BROMBERG: I'm sorry, but before 3 you get to the next question. I u n d e r s t a n d 4 the q u e s t i o n that it s i m p l y asks t h i s w i t n e s s 5 what his u n d e r s t a n d i n g of the term was. 6 I certainly don't agree with the witness' 7 view as to what the TLV does, and I gather 8 Plaintiffs' counsel doesn't either. 9 MR. COHEN: I just want to have my 1 0 o b j e c t i o n th a t that is an o p i n i o n that can 11 be r e n d e r e d by an e x p e r t , and to the e x t e n t 12 that he's r e n d e r i n g it, I object to that. 13 BY MR . S H E I N : 14 q _ in f a c t , w a s n ' t it y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g , sir, 1 5 that t h r e s h o l d limit value or maximum allowable 16 c o n c e n t r a t i o n , t h e y ' r e b a s i c -- t h e y ' r e the same 17 t h i n g , r e a l l y ; a r e n ' t t h e y ? 18 A. T e c h n i c a l l y , by strict defi n i t i o n , they're 19 not the same t h i n g . M a x i m u m a l l o w a b l e c o n c e n t r a t i o n 20 was t h e f i r s t t e r m i n o l o g y u s e d and that m e a n t that 21 it s h o u l d n e v e r e x c e e d t h a t p a r t i c u l a r n u m b e r . 22 T h r e s h o l d limit v a l u e a l l o w s you to e x c e e d c e r t a i n 23 m a t e r i a l s , but t h e a m o u n t you e x c e e d it in c e r t a i n 24 part of the day, y o u have to a v e r a g e it b e l o w t h a t , 25 so t h a t it a v e r a g e s out. T h e r e are o t h e r d e f i n i t i o n s ' Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000849 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 251 2 that OSHA has brought in, PEL and w h a t n o t , all within 3 -- that's why I keep insisting these are guidelines 4 for us to work for. 5 Q. These' g u i d e l i n e s were never a p p l i c a b l e to 6 mesothelioma; were they? 7 MR . G A L L O : Objection. 8 MR. BROMBERG: O b j e c t i o n on the 9 g r o u n d , he didn't even know about m e s o t h e l i o m a 1 0 u n t i l a c e r t a i n p o i n t in t i m e . 11 THE WITNESS: Well, even today, that 12 t h e y do k n o w , t h e r e is no v a l u e . In f a c t , the 13 t h i n k i n g is for c a n c e r p r o d u c i n g m a t e r i a l , 1 4 there sho u l d be zero. . 1 5 BY MR . SHEIN: 1 6 Q. That was my next question. Then, they're 17 not a p p l i c a b l e to any -- 18 MR. BROMBERG: O b j e c t i o n to that 19 a n s w e r , the w i t n e s s is now g i v i n g e x p e r t 20 t e s t i m o n y , it does not r e l a t e - 21 MR. SHEIN: The witness has been 22 giving expert testimony, counsel, all day 23 long. 24 THE WITNESS: And you haven't 25 objected. ~~ Knipes-Cohen A~s~sociates Castleman.CERT000850 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 252 2 MR. BROMBERG: I would also move 3 that c o mment , g ratuitous comment, be stricken 4 from the record. 5 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 6 MR. CREEDON: Objection. 7 MR . S H E ! N : And, besides, counsel, 8 you are not in our case. 9 MR . BROMBERG: That may be, but you 1 0 are in m i n e at the m o m e n t . 11 MR . S H E I N : Oh, but we're not. 1 2 MR . C O H E N : No, on y o u r c a s e , is 13 the word. T h e r e ' s a d i f f e r e n c e in 14 terminology. 1 5 MR . GALLO : To the extent 1 6 n ecessary. I'll adopt Mr. B romberg's 17 o b j e c t i o n . I b e l i e v e it e x t e n d s to 18 all of us. 1 9 MR. B R O M B E R G : If we have an 20 agreement that the questions and answers 21 of t h i s q u e s t i o n n e r wi l l not be used in 22 any case that I'm in, then I have no 23 problems. 24 Do all the ot h e r P l a i n t i f f s ' 25 a t t o r n e y s agree to that? : Knipes-Cohen Associ~at:es Castleman.CERT000851 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 253 2 MR. LOCKS: Of course, not, Mr. 3 Bromberg. 4 BY HR. SHEIN: 5 Q. Now, if we may c o n t i n u e , and I'm not go i n g to 6 be much Lon,ger. 7 Th e r e p o r t that has b e e n m a r k e d as 8 E x h i b i t 29, and a g a i n g o i n g , sir, if I m a y , and I 9 be l i e v e it's to the second -- the third parag r a p h - 10 MR. SHEIN: Go off the record a 11 moment,please? 12 MR. STRAIN: We're going off the 13 r e c o r d , and the time is 4:25. 14 We're back on the record, and the 1 5 t i m e is 4 :26. 16 BY MR. SHEIN: 17 Q. Sir, this e x h i b i t that has beenm a r k e d as 18 #29, w h i c h I b e l i e v e you have in front of you. 19 A. Yes, I d o . 20 Q . And which states November 10,1964,and I gather 21 t h a t was w r i t t e n by you, sir? 22 A. Y es, it was. 23 Q. And, in n u m b e r two, which has been r e f e r r e d to, 24 it s t a t e s . Dr. K n o x said that U.S. i n d u s t r y in 25 g e n e r a l does not want to a ccept the fact that a s b e s t o s Knipes-Cohen Associates ' Castleman.CERT000852 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 254 2 is v e r y h a z a r d o u s , and they will a c c e p t any d o c t o r ' s 3 v i e w , if he is -- if he intimidated . that it was not 4 hazardous. 5 Now, you heard, I g a ther Dr. Knox 6 make that statement? 7 A. That was - - 8 MR. BROMBERG: O b j e c t i o n , on the 9 grounds that it's irre levant and immaterial 1 0 THE WITNESS: That was an o p i nion 11 he s t a t e d at that meet i ng . 12 MR . BROMBERG : And hearsay. 13 BY MR. S H E I N : 14 Q . And, when he made the s t a t e m e n t , sir, did he 1 5 r e f e r t o any p a r t i c u l a r p h y s i cian who a d h e r e d to that 16 concept or p r i n c i p a l ? 17 A . No, he did not. 18 Q . Now, who is -- 1 9 MR. B R O M B E R G : I move to strike that. 20 BY MR. S H E I N : 21 Q . -- Dr. W. C. H e u p e r , do you know who Dr. H e u p e r 22 is? 23 A. Yes, he's a very well known medical person with 24 a g r e a t deal of k n o w l e d g e and e x p e r i e n c e in the c a n c e r 25 f ield. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000853 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 25 5 2 Q. And, in fact, was he with the N a t i o n a l C a n c e r 3 I n s t i t u t e in a b o u t 1 9 6 4 and '5? 4 A. I d o n ' t know w h e n he was with t h e m , but he was 5 with them, I believe. 6 Q. And, was he a recog n i z e d - a u t h o r i t y in the 7 Country in the cancer field, sir? 8 MR. BROMBERG: Objection on the ground 9 that he's i n c o m p e t e n t to answer the q u e s t i o n . 1 0 MR. G A L L O : B e y o n d the s c o p e , as 11 well. 1 2 MR. BRUCH: Objection. 13 MR. CREEDON: Objection. 14 BY MR. S H E I N : 1 5 Well , let m e a sk you this b e i n g all c o u n s e l 1 6 s a y i n g you' re i n c o m p e t e n t -- 17 MR B R O M B E R G : N o b o d y is s a y i n g he's 18 incompetent. 19 MR SHEIN: What was the word used? 20 MR B R O M B E R G : I n c o m p e t e n t to a n sw e r 21 the questi o n 22 MR SHEIN: To answer -- you didn't 23 let me finis h before you o b j e c t e d , sir. A 24 S i r . n o b o d y is s a y i n g y o u ' r e 25 incompetent. __ Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000854 1 Leon Ho r owi t z Cross 256 2 THE W I T N E S S : But, I'm not an expert. 3 Y MR . SHEIN: 4. B u t , d i d n ' t you tell us at the v e r y b e g i n n i n g 5 f your t e s t i m o n y this m o r n i n g , that an i n d u s t r i a l 6 y g i e n i s t is a p e r s o n who e v a l u a t e s , m e a s u r e s and 7 elps to control h a z a r d o u s conditions due to toxic 8 lust in an i n d u s t r i a l p l a n t ? 9 ,. That's the general definition, yes. 1 0 . And, in order to do that, you c e r t a i n l y have 11 o k n o w s o m e t h i n g a b o u t the h a z a r d o u s c o n d i t i o n s ; 12 Io n 't y o u ? 13 ,. Yes. 14 i. And, you c e r t a i n l y have to know s o m e t h i n g 15 ibout p n e u m o c o n i o s i s ; don't you? ' 1 6 i. Yes . 17 i. A n d , y o u c e r t a i n l y , if c a n c e r is c a u s e d by a 18 i n e u m o c o n i o s i s , p a r t i c u l a r l y a s b e s t o s , you have to 19 now s o m e t h i n g a b o u t it; d o n ' t you? 20 MR. B R O M B E R G : Object to the form. 21 MR. CREEDON: O b j e c t i o n to the form. 22 MR. BRUCH: Object to the form -- 23 IY M R . S H E I N : 24 t. 25 You may answer, sir. MR. B R U C H : - - on the grounds c a n c e r is K nipes-Cohen Associa~t~es Castleman.CERT000855 1 Leon Horowi t z Cross 257 2 not a pneumoconiosis. 3 THE COURT REPORTER: On the 4 grounds that - 5 MR. BRUCH: I'm sorry, on the grounds 6 that a s b e s t o s is is not a pneumoconiosis. 7 BY MR. SHEIN: 8 Q. You may answer, sir. 9 A. T h e r e are s e v e r a l t h i n g s to a n s w e r . T h e -- as 1 0 an i n d u s t r i a l h y g i e n i s t and many of us have s p e c i a l t i e s , 11 we d e p e n d on the o t h e r -- the e x p e r t i s e of o t h e r 12 s p e c i a l t i e s , and those of us who are not m e d ical peop l e , 13 d e p e n d on the m e d i c a l s p e c i a l t y for t h e i r c o n c l u s i o n s . 14 We d o n ' t g e n e r a l l y jump to a c o n c l u s i o n of any one 15 p articular person. We wait until there's a concensus 1 6 and the w h o l e c o m m u n i t y is r eady to a c c e p t it and 17 w h e n the o r g a n i z a t i o n s like the A C G I H w i l l a c c e p t it 18 and c h a n g e t h e i r l i m i t s , w h i c h they p r e s e n t to us, 19 t h e n we a c c e p t it. 20 q . A n d , you d o n ' t a c c e p t it b e f o r e ? 21 A. 22 q . Not readily, no. So, that if a p o s s i b i l i t y of a d i s e a s e e x i s t s 23 from a s b e s t o s , from asbestos exposure, you don't 24 a c c e p t that p o s s i b i l i t y , u n t i l it's a p r o v e n f act, is 25 that w h a t y o u ' r e t e l l i n g this J u r y ? _ _ " Knipes-Cohen ~Associates Castleman.CERT000856 1 Leon Ho r o wi t z - Cross 258 2 A. U n t i l it is p r o v e n , and s u f f i c i e n t l y for the 3 c o n c e n s u s to accept. 4 MR. BRUCH: Object. 5 T H E W I T N E S S : Dr. H e u p e r , who is 6 an exp e r t in cancer may not n e c e s s a r i l y be 7 an e x p e r t in cancer on a s b e s t o s . I'm not 8 sure of that. 9 BY MR . SHEIN: 1O Q. I see. 11 Well, let me ask you this. You 12 read Exhibit #29, and I asked you a question about 13 w h e t h e r y o u k n e w w h i c h d o c t o r s m i g h t be i n t i m i d a t e d 14 into t e s t i f y i n g about the n o n - h a z a r d s of as b e s t o s . 1 5 MR . MASON: Objection 16 MR. B R U C H : O b j e c t i o n 17 MR. G A L L O : O b j e c t i o n 18 BY HR. S H E I N : 19 a. Now, in 1 9 6 5 , sir. Dr. H u e p e r w r o t e an a r t i c l e 20 21 M R . G A L L O : Move to strike that 22 last-- 23 THE W I T N E S S : It was not i n t i m i d a t e d , 24 it was intimated." 25 PY MR. S H E I N : Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000857 1 2 qm Leon Ho r owi t z Cross 259 -- Occupational and Non-occupational Exposure 3 to A s b e s t o s . And, I'm going to read you a p a r a g r a p h 4 from that article - 5 A. What year was that? 6 qs 1 965, t h a t a p p e a r e d in the Ana Is of the New York 7 A c a d e m y of, S c i e n t i s t s . A n d , t h e n I'm g o i n g to ask you a 8 question. 9 MR. B R O M B E R G : Object to the p r o c e d u r e . 10 He's not call e d as an expert w i t n e s s . 11 MR. S H E I N : I'm g o i n g -- this is not 12 an expert question, sir. 13 MR. BROMBERG: Then what are you 14 doing with an article? 15 BY M R . S H E I N : 16 q . He said, n u m e r o u s r eports by many i n v e s t i g a t o r s 17 from v a r i o u s c o u n t r i e s e s t a b l i s h e d the fact that an 18 o c c u p a t i o n a l or n o n - o c c u p a t i o n a l i n h a l a t i o n of dust 19 of d i f f e r e n t c h e m i c a l s and p h y s i c a l t y p e s of a s b e s t o s 20 r e s u l t in a d e v e l o p m e n t of a s b e s t o s i s of the lung, 21 w h i c h d e p e n d i n g u p o n the t y p e of e x p o s u r e , may be 22 d e s i g n a t e d as an o c c u p a t i o n a l n e i g h b o r h o o d or h o u s e h o l d 23 p n e u m o c o n i o s i s . S i n c e 1 9 3 5 , an i n c r e a s i n g a m o u n t of 24 e p i d e m i o l o g i c c l i n i c and p a t h o l o g i c e v i d e n c e m o r e o v e r 25 i n c r i m i n a t e s t h i s h e a l t h h a z a r d as one of the Knipes-Cohen A ssoci#ates Castleman.CERT000858 1 Leon Ho r o wi t z - Cross 260 2 e n v i r o n m e n t a l s o u r c e s of c a n c e r s of the lung. And 3 more r e c e n t l y of -- also of m e s o t h e l i o m a s of the 4 pleura and peritoneum. 5 And I ask you to listen to the 6 c o n c l u s i o n of that s e n t e n c e now, a l t h o u g h / some 7 commercially interested parties and their medical 8 guardians and protectors still prefer for their own 9 r e a s o n s and m o t i v e s to deny the e x i s t e n c e of these 10 d a n g e r o u s and u s u a l l y fatal sequel i of a r e s p i r a t o r y 11 c o n t a c t w i t h a s b e s t o s dust. 12 Now, sir/ my q u e s t i o n to is this, 13 in 1 9 6 5 , t h e r e w e r e c o m m e r c i a l l y i n t e r e s t e d p a r t i e s 14 who w e r e a t t e m p t i n g to d e n y t h i s , w e r e n ' t t h e r e , sir? 1 5 MR. GALLO: Objection 1 6 MR. BROMBERG: Objection 17 MR. BRUCH: Objection 18 MR. MENDE LOW: Objection 1 9 THE W I T N E S S : If there were. 20 MR. BROMBERG: Wait, Mr. Horowitz, 21 do you want us to state the g r o u n d s ? 22 BY MR . S H E I N : 23 9 24 W e r e n ' t you one of them, sir? MR MASON: Wait a minute, did you 25 r e c o r d his a n s w e r ? If th e r e were, I have no Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000859 1 Leon Horowi tz Cr oss 261 2 k n o w l e d g e of them. 3 TH E C O U R T R E P O R T E R : I h a v e , if t h e r e 4 were -- 5 THE W I T NESS: They want you to cross 6 that off, right? 7 MR . B R O M B E R G : N o . 8 THE COURT REPORTER: Your answer was, 9 if they were -- 10 THE W I T N E S S : If t h e r e w e r e , I had 11 no knowle.dge of them. 12 BY M R . S H E I N : 13 Q . We r e n ' t you one of them, sir? 1 4 A. In 1935? 15 Q . *65 . 16 A. In 1965? 17 Q. Yes, sir, weren't you still demanding more 18 p r o o f ? 19 A. I t h o u g h t the a r t i c l e was w r i t t e n in 1935. 20 Q. Wo, I said '65, sir. 21 |A. I see. 22 MR. B R O M B E R G : Is t h e r e a q u e s t i o n 23 pending? 24 MR. S H E I N : Yes, t h e r e is. R e a d it 25 back. " Knipes-Coh~en Associates Castleman.CERT000860 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 262 2 THE WIT N E S S : First o f all, I was -- 3 MR . G A L L O : We o b j e c t to it , w h a t e v e r 4 5 MR . C O H E N : W h a t e v e r it is, you 6 7 MR . G A L L O : W e l l , we h e a r d i t . 8 a 9 THE W I T N E S S : The r e f e r e n c e he made 1 0 was to whom i n d u s t r i a l - - i n d u s t r i a l m a n a g e r s , 11 is that what the r e f e r e n c e was? 12 MR. SHEIN: The r e f e r e n c e was to 1 3 commercially interested parties. 14 THE WITNESS: I am -- have never been 1 5 nor am I today a commercially interested party. 1 6 So, therefore, that doesn't include me. But, I 1 7 will g i v e you my o p i n i o n a n d - m y t r a n s i t i o n in 18 my thinking towards asbestos, and I've alluded 19 to it b e f o r e . It was d i f f i c u l t for me -- 20 MR. GALLO: Well, wait a m i n u t e , we 21 o b j e c t to this. He is not c a l l e d as an e x p ert 22 to give his o p i n i o n today of his f e e l i n g c o n c e r n 23 ing a s b e s t o s . It's b e y o n d the scope of -- 24 BY MR. S H E I N : " . 25 Q. All r ight, so that you can't tell us -- Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000861 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - Cross 263 2 MR. GALLO: -- do I get cut off 3 when I make an o b j e c t i o n or do I -- am I 4 e n t i t l e d -- 5 MR, SHEIN: I'm sorry, sir, I 6 thought you were finished. 7 MR. GALLO: That's all right, Mr. 8 S h e i n . He can t e s t i f y w i t h i n the s c o p e of 9 the direct e x a m i n a t i o n , which was as a fact 10 w i t n e s s , in fact, and y o u ' r e g o i n g b e y o n d 11 that. 12 MR. C O H E N : The fact is the w i t n e s s 13 is not e n t i t l e d to g i v e an o p i n i o n b a s e d u p o n 14 the work e x p e r i e n c e that he -- 1 5 MR. GAL L O : If it's b e y o n d the 16 scope of direct. 17 MR . COHEN: What? 18 MR. G A L L O : If it's b e y o n d the 19 s c o p e of the d i r e c t , w h i c h it i s . 20 MR. SHEIN: Are you finished your 21 objections, counsel? 22 MR. GALLO: Yeah. 23 MR. BR O M B E R G : I also object to the 24 i n c l u s i o n w i t h i n thi s q u e s t i o n of the _ _ 25 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, I a lso Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000862 1 Leon Hor owi t z Cross 264 2 object-- 3 MR. B R O M B E R G : -- object to the 4 i n c l u s i o n w i t h i n this q u e s t i o n of the long 5 r e a d i n g from some item of h e a r s a y that 6 p r e c e d e d it. 7 MR. CREEDON: Object. 8 MR. GUSKY: I further object because 9 the question was argumentative. 1 0 MR. SHEIN: Do we have any f u r t h e r 11 objections? 12 MR. BROMBERG: Irrelevant and 13 i m m a t e r i a l , as well. 14 BY MR. S H E I N : 15 q . So, you can't tell us, sir, who Dr. Hueper 16 was r e f e r r i n g to in 1 9 6 5 , w h e n he t a l k e d a b o u t 17 c o m m e r c i a l l y i n t e r e s t e d p a r t i e s , and you c a n ' t tell 18 us who Dr. K n o x was r e f e r r i n g to in 1 9 6 4 , w h e n he 19 t a l k e d a b o u t p e r s o n s who c o u l d be i n t i m i d a t e d . 20 MR. MASON: Objection. 21 MR. GALLO: Objection, the article 22 d o e s n 't say t h a t . 23 MS . GIB S O N : O b j e c t i o n . 24 T H E W l f N E S S : It d o e s n ' t s a y ' t h a t , it 25 says intimated. Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000863 1 Leon Hor owi t z Cross 265 2 MR. SHEIN: Intimated, I'm sorry. 3 THE WITNESS: I cannot - 4 MR. SHEIN: Go off the record, 5 please. 6 MR. STRAIN: Going off the record, 7 and the t i m e is 4:37. 8 We're now back on the record, and the 9 tim e is 4:38. 10 BY MR . SHEIN: 11 q . Sir, do you know the b u s i n e s s r e l a t i o n s h i p , if 12 any, of Bell A s b e s t o s to T u r n e r and Newall? 13 MR . MASON: O b jection. 14 MR. GALLO: Objection. 1 5 THE WITNESS: Not really, no. 1 6 BY MR . S H E I N : 17 q . Do you know the b u s i n e s s -- and when I say, 18 do you k n o w , I m e a n as of the y e a r s that you were 19 with -- f r o m '60 to '62. 20 A. K e a s b e y - M a t t i s o n , no. 21 Q . Keasbey-Mattison. 22 23 A . You don't - I did not know the business relationship. 24 Q. At all? . 2 5 A. At all, no. Knipes-Cohen A ssoci^ates Castleman.CERT000864 1 Leon Hor owi t z - Cross 266 2 Q. Did you know whether Turner and NewaLL wholly 3 o w n e d B e l l as a s u b s i d i a r y ? 4 MR. GALLO: Objection. 5 MR . MASON: Objection. 6 MR. GALLO: It's been asked and 7 answered. 8 THE WITNESS: I knew they owned a 9 mine, but I didn't know what. 10 BY MR. SHEIN: 11 Q . Do you know if b e t w e e n 1 9 6 0 and 1 9 6 2 , B e l l 12 was s u p p l y i n g K easbey and Mattison with fibers? 13 A. I d i d n ' t know that as a fact, 14 Q. How about after 1962? 15 A. Again, same -- same answer. 16 0. Do you know, as of 1960 to 1962, w h e t h e r 17 T u r n e r and N e w a l l o w n e d in w h o l e or in part, C a s s i a r ? 18 MR. MASON: Objection. 19 MS. GIBSON: Objection. 20 THE W I T N E S S : I had no k n o w l e d g e of 21 that area. 22 BY M R . S H E I N : 23 q . Did you e v e r see at any ATI m e e t i n g s t h a t you / 24 t t e n d e d r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s from e i t h e r Bell or C a s s i a r ? 25 A. I believe they w e r e t h e r e . I saw t h e i r n a m e s - Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000865 1 Leon Horowi tz Cr os s 267 2 I was on a special coimnittee that they were not on, 3 but I knew of the Q A M A , that's all I knew. 4 q. I'm not talking about Q AMA , I'm talking about 5 ATI. Did you see r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s of Bell or C a s s i e r 6 at any of the ATI m e e t i n g s that you a t t e n d e d ? 7 A. If t hey w e r e t h e r e , I was n e v e r i n t r o d u c e d to 8 them, and I didn't know them, no. 9 Q. How about any representatives from Turner 1 0 and Newall? 11 MR. MASON: Objection. 12 THE WITNESS: None that I knew of. 13 BY MR. S H E I N : 14 q . Did you ever receive a book called Turner and 15 Newall Limited, the first fifty years? 16 A. No, I w o u l d like to see a copy of that. 17 Q. Y o u ' v e n e v e r s e e n it b e f o r e , sir? 18 No, never saw i t . 19 MR . SHEIN: Okay, I have no further 20 questions 21 MR . G A L L O : No Red i re c t . 22 MS . GIBSON: I have one further 23 q u e s t i o n -- I have one q u e s t i o n in r e s p o n s e to 24 somethi ng Mr . S h e i n a s k e d . 25 MR . MASON: I have some more. Are we K nipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000866 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 268 2 g o i n g to stop now or - 3 MR. COHEN: Wait a m i n u t e , Let me 4 just say, because I was asked -- Let's go off 5 thevideo. 6 MR. STRAIN: We're going off the 7 r e c o r d , and the time is 4:41. 8 (Whereupon the foLLowing discussion 9 was heLd off the videotape record.) 10 MR. COHEN: WeLL, Mr. Locks has Left, 11 and upon the representation that foLLowing 12 the c o m p L e t i o n of Mr. Shein's q u e s t i o n i n g that 13 that wouLd terminate the deposition. I think - 14 and he asked me to s p e c i f i c a L L y state that 1 5 if we went b e y o n d any q u e s t i o n s a s k e d by Mr. 16 She in to i n t e r p o s e an o b j e c t i o n , s i n c e this is 17 c o n t r a r y to the a g r e e m e n t we had. And, t h e r e f o r e 18 I wouLd ask that no further q u e s t i o n i n g wouLd 1 9 o c c u r at this p o i n t . It's o b v i o u s , we have to 20 c o m e b a c k , at Least one m o r e day with Mr . 21 H o r o w i t z , and I think we can pick up any f u r t h e r 22 questions at that time m 23 MS . GIBSON: WeLL, I thou g h t we were 24 going to fini s h up Mr. S h e i n 's case. And I have 25 one question. Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000867 1 Leon Horowitz - C r o s s 269 2 MR. COHEN: He w a n t e d to finish. 3 It was no u n d e r s t a n d i n g that we would f i nish 4 S h e i n ' s case, as such. 5 MR. SHEIN: Just that I would 6 finish. , 7 MR. COHEN: We would finish. 8 MR. GALLO: Well, she can re-ask the 9 question. 1 0 MS. GIBSON: One dumb question. 11 MR. COHEN: It's not going to be one 12 question, because Jack's got questions. 13 MR. MASON: I have questions, 14 too. 1 5 MR. COHEN: Well, that's contrary 16 to the r e p r e s e n t a t i o n that was made to counsel, 17 and I t h i n k it w o u l d be u n f a i r to put him in a 18 p o s i t i o n of leaving. 1 9 MS. GIBSON: But, I thought Mr. Gallo 20 said we were going to have h i s - - first of his 21 case, b e c a u s e his case was coming up first, and 22 we may need to use this, before we finish 23 this. 24 MR. COHEN: Well, the only agreement 25 was that after Mr. Shein finished his questioning Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000868 1 Leon Horowi t z Cr oss 270 2 we w o u l d be f i n i s h e d . It was not that all 3 C o u n s e l would then follow up with any q u e s t i o n s 4 that that may raise. And the only - 5 MR. GALLO: The only one missing 6 if we c o n t i n u e this, will be Mr. Locks, right, 7 so if p e o p l e have to repeat their q u e s t i o n i n g , 8 t h e y ' l l have to r e p e a t it at the s e c o n d 9 proceeding. 1 0 MR. COHEN: Well, you just don't do 11 t h a t . It's n e v e r b e e n d o n e at any d e p o s i t i o n 12 that I'm aware of. And I think it's -- . 13 MR. SHEIN: Isn't he coming back 1 4 t o m o r r o w , isn't this going on t o m o r r o w ? 1 5 MR. COHEN: We haven't agreed to 16 when this would be continued. 1 7 MR. SHEIN: Oh, I thought this would 18 be -- 1 9 THE W I T N E S S : M r . L o c k s said he would 20 bebusytomorrow. 21 MR. GUSKY: I think that what. Hr. 22 C o h e n just s a i d r e a l l y is the u n d e r s t a n d i n g . 23 MR. COHEN: I mean, it's -- I've never 24 seen this done at any d e p o s i t i o n where coun s e l - - 25 MR. BRITTON: I agree, I made the same Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000869 1 Leon Ho r owi t z Cross 271 2 r e p r e s e n t a t i o n to Locks. 3 MR. SHEIN: I said I would take 4 about forty-five minutes. I have thought 5 all a l o n g that this is c o n t i n u i n g , d o e s n ' t 6 the Notice say from day to day until 7 c o m p l e t e d ? And due to the fact that I am 8 o n e of the next c a s e s out and c o u n s e l is 9 in the m i d d l e of q u e s t i o n i n g , I'm v i tally 1 0 i n t e r e s t e d in what he has to say for p u r p o s e s 11 of my case, also. 12 And I t h i n k it s h o u l d be 13 conti nued. 14 MR . M A S O N : It d o e s say c o n t i n u e 1 5 day to day from t h e r e a f t e r until c o mpleted. 1 6 MR. SHEIN: Yeah. And I simply 17 have a ssumed all along that we would continue 18 t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g at ten o ' c l o c k . And I think 19 it s h o u l d be c o n t i n u e d t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g at 20 ten o'clock. 21 MR. BRITTON: Mr. Shein, for purposes 22 of your c a s e , w h i c h is the f i r s t c a s e that 23 a p p a r e n t l y is g o i n g to come to t r i a l in this 24 g r o u p , y o u ' v e c o m p l e t e d your q u e s t i o n i n g ; is 25 that correct? K~ nipes-Cohen A ssocia' tes Castleman.CERT000870 1 Leon Horowitz Cross 272 2 MR. SHEIN: Only to the extent I have 3 not c o v e r e d what c o u n s e l is in the m i d d l e of. 4 MR. MASON: I don't understand that. 5 MR. SHEIN: C o u n s e l i s i n the m i d d l e of 6 a cross examination, which I will incorporate 7 inmycase. 8 MR. BRITTON: Well, counsel - 9 MR. GUSKY: Mr. Cohen and Mr. Locks? 10 MR. SHEIN: Yes. 11 MR. BRITTON: Well, these attorneys 12 are not representing your clients. 13 MR. COHEN: But, we agreed that any 14 t e s t i m o n y e l i c i t e d from Mr. H o r o w i t z wo u l d be 1 5 u t i l i z e d in Mr. Shein's cases. 1 6 MR. S H E I N : T h a t ' s rig h t , I am 1 7 not covering specifically certain subjects, which 18 I know t h e y ' r e going to cover. 1 9 MR. MASON: So, actually, he's not 20 finished himself. 21 MR. S H E I N : I'm not f i n i s h e d at all, 22 a c t u ally. I'm f i n i s h e d 'what I'm covering. 23 MR. B R I T T O N : I th i n k for p u r p o s e s of 24 your case, unless you' r e w i l l i n g to waive any 25 o b j e c t i o n you m i g h t have that t h i s d e p o s i t i o n is ~ Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000871 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - Cross 273 2 i n c o m p l e t e / if we want to use it. 3 MR. S H E I N : T h i s d e p o s i t i o n is 4 incomplete. 5 MR. BRITTON: Well/ then/ I think 6 you should complete your questioning. 7 MR. GALLO: Complete your questioning/ 8 M r. Shein . 9 MR. COHEN: He can't - - he's f i n i s h e d 1 0 those questions - 11 MR. B R I T T O N : He is the -- his case 12 is the f i r s t one on the c a p t i o n / a n d y o u ' r e 13 not counsel in his case and h a v e n ' t e n t e r e d 14 a p p e a r a n c e . If he w a n t s f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n i n g 15 for his c a s e / I t h i n k he s h o u l d do it now, or 16 w a i v e his o b j e c t i o n not to use this d e p o s i t i o n 17 d u r i n g the time of trial. 18 MR. C O H E N : If we all a g r e e d that 19 all Plaintiffs' counsel would have the benefit 20 of Mr. H o r owitz' t e s t i m o n y , as a p p l i e d to all 21 Plaintiffs' cases, but for the fact that I am not 22 a member of that law firm, our cases and 23 interests are identical, because I have discussed 24 specific interests that I am going into and 25 those q u e s t i o n s were not p ursued by Mr. Shein, Knipes-Cohen _A ssociates Castleman.CERT000872 1 Leon Horowi t z Cross 274 2 b a s e d on the fact that I'm g o i n g to spend at 3 Least h a l f a day w i t h Mr. H o r o w i t z , if not 4 Longer. 5 MR. SHEIN: And the same goes for 6 Locks. 7 MR. COHEN: And the same thing goes 8 for Mr. Locks, 9 MR. B R O M B E R G : Mr. Locks has no 1 0 problem about coming back tomorrow morning, 11 I assume? 12 THE W I T NESS: I thou g h t he did object 13 to coming tomorrow morning. 14 MR. CREEDON: I think he's starting 1 5 trial tomorrow morning. 16 T H E W I T N E S S : Is it a L L r i g h t if the 17 witness says something? 18 My u n d e r s t a n d i n g was that this would 1 9 be a one day a f f a i r , just Like the o t h e r one was, 20 a p p a r e n t l y - - it b e c a m e q u i c k l y a p p a r e n t that it 21 would not be a one day. Mr. Locks says he, 22 himself, requires one day. You require a half 23 day. 24 MR. COHEN: At a minimum. 25 T H E W I T N E S S : At a m i n i m u m . And you Kmpes-Cohen A ssoci.ates Castleman.CERT000873 1 Leon H o r o w i t z - Cross 275 2 requ i r e w h a t e v e r a d d i t i o n to that. A p p a r e n t l y , 3 the Defendants don't require anything but 4 rebuttal. I don't see anything less than two 5 days. And I never v o l u n t e e r e d to come here 6 for t h r e e days. And I am a p e r s o n in my own 7 right, and I have responsibilities, and I can't 8 get away that easy. So, therefore, I will make 9 it d i f f i c u l t for you, b e c a u s e I w o n ' t be 1 0 available, when you are available. So, I don't 11 know, and you surely -- I may not be a v a i l a b l e , 1 2 when you're avai table. 1 3 MR. GALLO: I want to make one thing 1 4 clear for the record. 1 5 THE W I T N E S S r l wish you w o u l d take me 1 6 into consideration. 17 MR. GALL O : As I u n d e r s t a n d the 1 8 d i s c u s s i o n s we had off the record before Mr. 1 9 Shein began his examination, Mr. Shein took 20 o v e r the e x a m i n a t i o n at that p o i n t , b e c a u s e he 21 had the first case on the list, which we feel 22 is c o m i n g to t r i a l , and it was s u g g e s t e d and 23 agreed that Mr. Shein would complete his 24 e x a m i n a t i o n for that case. So that the case 25 could go to trial. This t r a n s c r i p t could be used Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000874 1 Leon Horowi tz Cr os s 276 2 in his case. That was the u n d e r s t a n d i n g on 3 w h i c h we p r o c e e d e d at t h a t time. Now, Mr. 4 H o r o w i t z is here. He's i n d i c a t e d to us that he 5 can stay until late in the e v e n i n g to c o m p l e t e 6 this deposition. And the deposition, I feel, 7 has to go forward with respect to anything that 8 you may wish to bring out for your case. And 9 we ' r e p r e p a r e d to continue. 1 0 MR. SHEIN: Well, that's not the 11 stipulation that w a s o r i g i n a l l y entered into. 12 MR. COHEN: Let me just st ate that 13 it was not my u n d e r s t a n d i n g of the a g r e e m e n t . 14 If you want to p r o c e e d , t h e r e is no way that 1 5 we'll be able to finish today, because a ssuming 16 Mr. H o r o w i t z wants to make the nine o'clock 17 p l a n e , I'm not g o i n g to be f i n i s h e d , even if 18 I start five minutes from now. 1 9 MR. BRITTON: We're only concerned 20 a b o u t the f i r s t case on the list, w h i c h is - - 21 MR. COHEN: You have to be c o n c e r n e d 22 with what I do by virt u e of the a g r e e m e n t that 23 we made, and that e v e r y o n e agreed to early out, 24 and that was that the questions and answers 25 e l i c i t e d w o u l d be u t i l i z e d in e v e r y a s b e s t o s Knipes-Cohen A ssociates Castleman.CERT000875 1 Leon Horow i t z Cross 277 2 case on beh a l f of P l a i n t i f f s . 3 MR. S H E I N : And, in f a c t , part of it ha; 4 been. It's simply not c o m p l e t e d due to m u l t i p l e 5 objections. 6 MR. GALLO: Well, I don't know what 7 t h a t m e a n s , but it w a s your r e q u e s t that you 8 take over - - 9 MR . BRITTON: I think for 1 0 purposes -- 11 MR . SHEIN: Part of the q u e s t i o n 12 has a l r e a d y been u t i l i z e d in my c a s e , b e c a u s e it 13 has been done, obviously -- 14 MR . BRITTON: I think for purposes -- 1 5 MR . S H E I N : -- it is not c o m p l e t e d . 16 It's open. 17 MR . B R I T T O N : For p u r p o s e s of the 18 T i m b e r s' c a s e , Mr. H o r o w i t z is a v a i l a b l e now for 19 Plaintiffs' counsel who has entered his 20 a p p e a r a n c e on b e h a l f of P l a i n t i f f in the T i m b e r s' 21 case, to c o m p l e t e his q u e s t i o n i n g . And if you, 22 Mr. S h e i n , do not c o m p l e t e your q u e s t i o n i n g , 23 at this time, we are going to o b j e c t to your 24 a r g u m e n t that this d e p o s i t i o n is not a d m i s s i b l e . 25 He is a v a i l a b l e a n d you now have the o p p o r t u n i t y Knipes-C_oh_ en A. ssoci.ates Castleman.CERT000876 1 Leon Ho r owi t z Cross 278 2 to complete your deposition. 3 MR. SHEIN: I think that you will 4 find of record that we have reserved this and 5 I have a right to have this gentle m a n ' s 6 testimony totally completed before this deposition 7 can be u s e d . It was b a s e d upon our a g r e e m e n t 8 this m o r n i n g that we have d i v i d e d up the work. 9 MR. COHEN: That's one reason why -- 1 0 I was the one that b r o u g h t up the s t i p u l a t i o n , 11 b e c a u s e of that s i t u a t i o n , I wanted to make 1 2 sure, as we did on the E a g l e - P i c h e r d e p o s i t i o n , 13 t h a t it w o u l d get w h a c k e d up o n c e b e t w e e n all 1 4 P l a i n t i f f s ' c o u n s e l , and that was going to be 15 it. And the dep w o u l d not be used in any t r i a l 1 6 until all Plaintiffs' counsel would complete 17 it. 18 Mr. Horowitz, are you available any 19 time soon? 20 THE WITNESS: Well, you realize I 2 T work for a n o t h e r c o m pany. I'm doing this on 22 my own time, my v a c a t i o n time. 23 MR. BROMBERG: How about Saturday? 24 THE W I T N E S S : I would be more w i l l i n g 25 to do it on w e e k e n d s t h a n I w o u l d be w i l l i n g to Knipes-Cohen Associ.ates Castleman.CERT000877 1 Leon Ho r o wi t z Cross 279 2 do it on w e e k d a y s . 3 MR. SHEIN: I should like to add 4 o n e t h i n g , and that is that the n o t i c e says 5 from day to day until completed. It's now 6 ten m i n u t e s of five. We are ready to come 7 back tomorrow m o rn ing . That's what the 8 notice says. 9 MR . G U S K Y : T h e w i t n e s s is b e y o n d 1 O j u r i s d i c t i o n . T h i s man is here v o l u n t a r i ly 11 to testify. 12 THF WIT NE SS : I have s t a t e d to 13 c o u n s e l that if you could finish t o m o r r o w / 14 I w o u l d be wi l l i n g to stay a n o t h e r day. I 1 5 would have to call my office. But, you' r e 16 not g o i n g to be able to finish t o m o r r o w , 17 Mr. L o c k s has i n d i c a t e d that he will not b e 18 here tomorrow 1 9 MR . SHEIN: Start early. 20 MR . GALLO: The deposition says 21 tomorrow. 22 T H E W I T N E S S : If it s a i d , day to d a y , 23 iVIr. L o c k s , a p p a r e n t l y , has a l r e a d y c o m m i t t e d 24 himself. 25 MR. GUSKY: I don't think we can go " ' Knip es-Cohen Assoc:iates Castleman.CERT000878 1 Leon Horowi t z Cr o s s 280 2 ahead with the deposition knowing that he's 3 not available. 4 MR. COHEN: Not only is he not 5 available, number two, he's not here right 6 now to d i scuss it. That's the worse thing . 7 MR. B R O M B E R G : T h a t ' s b e c a u s e he 8 left. 9 MR. COHEN: He left, based on the 1 0 r e p r e s e n t a t i o n that n o t h i n g was going to 11 h a p p e n af t e r he w a l k e d out the front door. 12 MR. BROMBERG: I heard no such 13 r e p r e s e n t a t i o n that nothing was going to 1 4 happen when you walked out the front door. 1 5 E v e r y iother p e r s o n is stilt s i t t i n g at the 1 6 table. Mr. Locks was in a hurry and he left 17 before we got done. 18 MR. BRITTON: The representation was 19 that -- the r e p r e s e n t a t io n I made to him that 20 -- was that only Mr. Shein's i n terrogation 21 would be completed today. I think that was 22 the understanding. 23 MR. CREEDON: Why doesn't someone 24 who represents Plaintiffs, call Gene Locks' 25 o f f i c e and find o u t , if in f a c t , he can be ' Kni|pes-Cohen A ssoci|ates Castleman.CERT000879 1 Leon Horowitz - Cross 281 2 here t o m o r r o w to c o n t i n u e the questicns of 3 Mr.Horowitz? 4 MR. COHEN: Well/ let me just state/ 5 I have to go yet, let's assume that he's 6 avai l a b l e tomorrow -- off the record. 7 (Whereupon off the record discussions 8 were held from 5:05 p.m. to 5:10 p.m.) 9 MR. SHEIN: For the p u r p o s e of the 1 0 Timbers' case only/ once Mr. Cohen finishes 11 his cross e x a m i n a t i o n subject to w h a t e v e r 12 redirect or recross there may be, without 1 3 the n e c e s s i t y of Mr. Locks' cross e x a m i n a t i o n , 1 4 we will c o n s i d e r this d e p o s i t i o n of this 1 5 w i t n e s s c o m p l e t e / subject to all of the 1 6 objections I made this morning, particularly 17 with regard to relevancy. 18 If, prior to the T i m b e r s ' trial. 19 does depose this witness. we will 20 be at l i b e r t y , as I p r e s u m e will o t h e r c o u n s e l , 21 to use that t e s t i m o n y , as well. 22 M R . B R U C H : W i t h r e s p e c t to- T i m b e r s ? 23 MR. SHEIN: Jugt with r e s p e c t to 24 Timbers. 25 (Witness excused.) Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000880 1 Leon H o r o w i t z Cross 282 2 (Whereupon the deposition was 3 cone Luded for the day at 5:15 p . m . ) 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 0 11 12 13 14 1 5 1 6 17 18 19 R E P O R T E D BY : S u z a n n e M c L a u g h l i n W h i t e , Registered Professional Reporter 20 Notary Public 21 T Y P I S T : M a r g a r e t E. B e l z a 22 23 24 25 Knipes-Cohen A ssoci,ates Castleman.CERT000881 1 283 2 3 CERTIFICATE 4 C o m m o n w e a l t h of P en n s y l v a n i a: 5 SS 6 County of P h i ladelphia 7 8 I, Suzanne McLaughlin White, 9 Notary Public within and for the County of 1 0 P h i l a d e l p h i a , C o m m o n w e a l t h of P e n n s y l v a n i a , do 11 h e r e b y c e r t i f y that the f o r e g o i n g v i d e o t a p e d e p o s i t i o n o 12 L E O N H O R O W I T Z , was t a k e n p u r s u a n t to n o t i c e at 13 the o f f i c e s of K n i p e s - C o h e n A s s o c i a t e s , 400 14 M a r k e t S t r e e t , P h i l a d e l p h i a , P e n n s y l v a n i a , on 1 5 M o n d a y , F e b r u a r y 1, 1982; that s a i d w i t n e s s was d u l y 16 sworn before the comm e n c e m e n t of his testimony; that 17 the t e s t i m o n y of s a i d w i t n e s s was w r i t t e n in 18 s h o r t h a n d by m y s e l f and r e d u c e d to t y p i n g u n d e r my 19 d i r e c t i o n a n d c o n t r o l ; t h a t the f o r e g o i n g is a true 20 and correct t r a n s c r i p t i o n of the testimony; that 21 I am not r e l a t e d to or e m p l o y e d by any of the p a r t i e s , 22 or th e i r a t t o r n e y s or a g e n t s , or i n t e r e s t e d d i r e c t l y 23 or i n d i r e c t l y in the m a t t e r in c o n t r o v e r s y e i t h e r as 24 c o u n s e l , a t t o r n e y , a g e n t or o t h e r w i s e . 25 Knipes-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000882 1 284 2 3 IN TESTIMONY WHEREOF, I have hereunto 4 set my h a n d and a f f i x e d my seal of o f f i c e at 5 P h i l a d e l p h i a , in said County, this r day of 6 February, 1982. 7 8 9 1 0 11 12 / NO T/A R Y P U B L I 13 14 1 5 16 17 18 1 9 20 21 22 23 24 25 Knip es-Cohen Associates Castleman.CERT000883