Document ppngrOR33Rd81Dv9qqbY78Vjd

1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT TWENTIETH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF ILLINOIS 2 ST. CLAIR COUNTY 3 4 FRANCES E. KEMNER, et al., 5 Plaintiffs 6 V. 7 MONSANTO COMPANY 8 Defendant ) ) ) ) ) CAUSE NO. 80-L-970 ) ) ) ) 9 10 REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS 11 Before the HONORABLE RICHARD P. GOLDENHERSH 12 Testimony of Dr. George Rousch 13 July 16, 1985 14 15 APPEARANCES: 16 MR. REX CARR, Attorney at Law, and MR. JEROME SEIGFREID, Attorney at Law, 17 On behalf of the Plaintiffs; 18 MR. KENNETH R. HEINEMAN, Attorney at Law, and MR. JOSEPH NASSIF, Attorney at Law, 19 On behalf of the Defendant. 20 21 22 23 PATRICIA A. GANDY, CSR, RPR 24 Official Court Reporter 1 BE XT REMEMBERED AND CERTIFIED, that heretofore, on to-wit: 2 July 16, 1985, the matter as hereinbefore set forth came on for hearing 3 before the Honorable Richard P. Goldenhersh, Circuit Judge, Twentieth Judicial Circuit, State of Illinois, and the following was had of record, 4 5 to-wit: : * ' 6 THE COURT:, Good morning. . ; 7 (Plaintiff's Exhibits 1495A and 1495B were marked 8 9 for Identification.) , I 10 CONTINUED CROSS EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. CARR 12 Q Doctor, you recognize 1495A and B as being the two of the pages 13 from Exhibit 1495 which you have there that Is dealing with the questions' 14 asked and proposed answers for the employees? IS A Yes, sir. 16 MR. CARR: I offer 1495A and B, if it please the Court. 17 (Plaintiff's Exhibits 1495A and 1495B were offered 18 Into evidence.) 19 THE COURT: Any objections? 20 MR. HEINEMAN: No objections, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Admitted without objection. 22 (Plaintiff's Exhibits 1495A and 1495B were admitted 23 Into evidence) 24 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1496 was marked for identification.) 1 Q Doctor, I hand you now what has been marked Plaintiff's Exhibit 2 1496 and aslc you to look at that. 3 `(Plaintiff,'s-Exhibit 1496A was marked for > 4 Identification.) 5 Q Doctor,, I hand you now what has been marked Plaintiff's Exhibit 6 1496A. You recognize 1496A as a second version of the questions and ' . , *j 7 answers to be ready for the employees that might ask questions to be S given to the employees? 1 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q And it's dated September 28th, 1979, Is It not, sir? 11 A X can't tell. It looks like It might be 23. 12 Q Well, I thought so, too. You will see It is September 28, you 13 will see It refers to the one on September the 26th? 14 A Yes. IS Q And 1496A Is a page on the questions and answers from that 16 exhibit, is It not, sir? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 MR. CARR: 1 offer 1496 and 1496A, If it please the Court. 19 (Plaintiff's Exhibits 1496 and 1496A were offered 20 into evidence.) 21 THE COURT: Any objections to those two? 22 MR. HEINEMAN We have no objection, your Honor. , 23 THE COURT: All right, they are both admitted without objection. 24 (Plaintiff's Exhibits 1496 and 1496A were admitted ; s -4 & -1 . intoJe v i d e n c e : : J_ >. *2' - Q Doctor,..1496.,contains a great deal of the same information 3 contained in 1496, but,there is some changes in the information, and I 4 direct your attention to questions 1, 2, and 3 on the September 28th, that 5 .is .the .1496 drafts and compare.it to 10,11 on the September 26thdraft, 6 that is 1495. : The information'there in question 11 on the September the ~ 1 -t -* j *- J, ' ^ , , " i4 , ' ty 1 '4 + v " ' ^ r _T ' 7 26th draft mentions.that -you did some analysis:to compare' with OSHA and' 8 that you found 18parts per"billion of tetrachlorodioxin. Two days later ,` 9 the new draft puts in the additional facts that'it's 2,3,7,8 tetrachloro- 10 para-dioxin and that you found 500 or 2600 parts per billion of a blank 11., ' dioxin on two nlyses, do you, see that., sir? ; J-V v 12 'r A.l .Yes,\sir. . / ' \ r- L1 r \t , J , rH \L -, r Jp > -f * 13 Q And of course that finding of the 500 conforms to the finding 4 . that you all, received from your laboratory and the 2600 conforms with 15 what you received from the University of Nebraska as to the tetradioxin 16 -that was in that spill, d you see that:, sir, in Exhibit-1301A? , . 17 - k ` Yes,,-sir.' ; ' 1^ 18 Q Now, Doctor, <donTt you.believe" it.would, that,,it was important '' - ' )*\ 'V;i ' A i V* ` t 19, that the .workers be given this, informtion, the first exhibit doesnt make ' ,20 21 22 . . 23 24 If clear at all, as; a matter,*of /fact you say _that you don't agree, with what ^ V 1' -"v v- .",`:;v 'v , OSHA found, but then in the second exhibit, that ir for September 28th, yot ' '' "V* ^ ''r '^*-i *' V ii> J 'r' V S'-L .i`- , . > < j. ; - }^i t\ -, 'i < *; - indeed show that-you h a d greater finding of dioxin in the analyses than. 0SQA, and my question is, do you not think it is Important that xrrkers be -i - f;- 1 f <# j r- t * r , l * , * t _ I* ' . given this information so that they can. be fully advised of tlie nature and H\ 1 purpose of this health study? 2 A Noi sir. 3 Q You don't think they should he fully advised? 4 A No sir. 5 Q Doctor, If you were working In an area where your employer had 6 found 2600 parts per billion of tetrachlorodlbenzo-p-dloxln and that you 7 might have had ah exposure to that level of dioxin, wouldn't you want to 8 know It? 9 A No, sir. 10 Q Why wouldn't you want to know that, Doctor, if it concerns your 11 health? It does concern your health, doesn't It, sir? 12 A This was a spill, this 500 parts per billion or 400, whatever 13 It was. 14 Q Or the 2600? IS A No, sir, it wasn't 2600. 16 Q Yes, It was. As a matter of fact it was 2700, according to 17 the University of Nebraska. You see Exhibit 1301? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q It says 2700 there, doesn't it, sir? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q And that was sent there, or do you know the facts of how it was 22 sent there by your people to find out^?23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q What the University of Nebraska found and th University of 1 Nebraska reported that? 2 A Yes, sir 3 Q And it's a spill of a product being manufactured at your plant, 4 isn*t it, sir? 5 A Or I'm not sure what it,was, but it was manufactured there, yes. 6 Q Well, you can assume that It was 2,4-Dichlorophenol being 7 manufactured in Department 237-- 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q -- in 1979, and that was the product that had been manufactured 10 there in '78, '77, '76, and '79? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Now, at this point in September of *79, that was the level of 13 tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin and University of Nebraska said it coelutes 14 as 2,3,7,8, that they found and your people found 487 parts per billion? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q In that sample? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q Now, this Is something that these workers have been working 19 with presumably for years, is it not, sir? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q And they're being exposed to it, aren't they, sir? 22 A Not at that level. 23 Q Doctor, how can you say they are not being exposed if it's 24 being manufactured at that level, they're handling it at that level? 1 A No, sir, that's an enclosed system In the 237 unit. There 2 was no exposure there. 3 Q Well, Doctor, what level are they handling it then? You say 4 they weren't handling at that level, they were handling this product 5 that's being manufactured there, they were transferring it, they were makln 6 it in the stills, and they were transferring it to storage tank and from 7 the storage tank they were transferring to the tank cars? 8 A All ran through pipes. 9 Q But weren't they doing those things, sir? 10 A None of them were being exposed. 11 Q None of your workers were being exposed at all then, why 12 conduct this study? 13 A No, sir. 14 Q Doctor, you're conducting this study for the purpose of finding 15 whether or not your workers being exposed to dioxin and the manufacture of 16 it had any 111 health effects, are you not, sir? 17 A As measured by chloracne. 18 Q As measured by chloracne? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q Doctor, 1 suggest to you that you took a lot of tests, you didn 21 just look for chloracne, did you, sir? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q You did every laboratory test, there are quite a few laboratory t' , r / 1 t '^ 24 tests that were known', so you weren't measuring just by chloracne, were you 1 sir? 2 A We were looking for-- 3 Q You weren't measuring just by the symptom of chloracne, were 4 you, sir? 5 A No, sir. 6 Q This Is a product that you were manufacturing at Monsanto, 7 you anticipate that questions are going to be asked about dioxin and 8 this version at least tells your employees about the fact that high 9 levels of tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin were discovered In your product by 10 OSHA and that you confirmed it with your own testing? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Now, Doctor, somebody apparently believed that it was important 13 that they be told but you don't think it was important it be told, and I 14 am interested in finding out why you don't believe workers should be told 15 about the poisons with which they're working, why do you believe that, 16 Doctor? 17 A Because they weren't being exposed. 18 Q Doctor, they're working with the poison, there's always the 19 chance of a little, bitty spill. You know that two ladles working in 20 237 had some spray out of a leaky pipe on them, you know that, sir? They 21 got chloracne, didn't they, sir? . 22 A Yes, sir, or I'm-not sure whether they got chloracne. 23 Q Now, Doctor, you know that these things occur in the best of t, ' 24 manufacturing plants that there is the potential for exposure. Pipes 1 do rust and wear out, rubber hose connections do get leaky, valves do get 2 faulty, they do those things In the best of plants, those things occur, 3 you know that. 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q And there is an every day potential for exposure to the 6 product being manufactured in any plant, isn't there, sir? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Now, Doctor, so we've taken care of that reason that you said 9 that they shouldn't be told. Now, there is the potential for exposure, 10 why shouldn't these workers be told about that dioxin or poison content 11 with which they're working? 12 A Because that's related to a spill and unrelated to their job* 13 Q Doctor, you just got through agreeing that there is a spill 14 potential in the best of plants, did you not, sir? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 MR. HEINEMAN: Objection, your Honor. He cut the witness off. 17 Can the witness answer the question? He cutrhinnoff`^ .and I object and 18 ask the Doctor.be allowed to answer the question. 19 A I'm sorry, could you repeat the question? 20 (Previousquestion was read by the reporter.) 21 A Yes, sir, and when we have a spill, we clean them up just like 22 we cleaned up that spill. We treat it as though there can be no exposure 23 to that material. We make them wear respiratory protection, we make them 24 wear complete plastic suits, that there can be no exposure to the workers 1 that cleaned up that spill, and every time we have a spill we treat it in 2 the same way so the exposure, it isn't zero but it's very close to zero. 3 Q Doctor, you took those protective measures after OSHA cited you 4 and told you to do that, did you not, sir? 5 A No, sir. 6 Q * You don't remember being cited by OSHA and being required to 7 put a tape around that area of the spill and clean out the dirt and have 8 the workers working in that area wear these protective suits, you don't 9 recall OSHA requiring you to 'do that? 10 A 1 thought we had already cleaned up the spill by that time. 11 Q Doctor, you had cleaned up part of the spill and you had not 12 work-- well, I'm not going to dispute with you what took place or what 13 didn't take place, Doctor. 14 A 'Yes, sir. 15 Q But OSHA did cite you and OSHA did require you to do those 16 things, and you did do those things as late as June, four months after 17 the spill took place? 18 A That was related Inside the plants not where the spill took plac 19 that was already cleaned up. '> 20 Q It was related to Inside the plant? 21 A Yes. . . . 22 Q Why would OSHA be having you wear thingsinside the plant? 23 A They called ita restrictive area until we couldfigure out 24 what they meant by the results of their findings. 1 Q Now, Doctor, OSHA required you to do that based upon what they 2 found was In there, they reported to you in June, the spill took place in 3 February, Now, all during that period of time your men were not working 4 in that department with these protective respirators and rubber suits, 5 were they, sir? 6 A No, sir. 7 Q They were exposed, weren't they, sir? 8 A Not to our-- from our approach, they were not. 9 Q Well, you and OSQA apparently disagreed, didn't you, then? 10 A Tes, sir. 11 Q Now, Doctor, whether you agreed or disagreed, is there not the 12 potential for exposure to dioxin with your workers? 13 A It is a matter of degree, the answer is yes. 14 Q And that's what I am asking you, Doctor, and should your workeri IS not be told, shouldn't they be told what they're working with, just as 16 you are telling them here? 17 A This Is a question and answer. 18 Q Yes. Shouldn't they be told? This is for the purpose of 19 informing these employees, they're going to ask questions, "Hey, howcome 20 we've got to have this health study?" "Why Is Krummrich and Dr. Suskind 21 doing this health study?" That's what this Information is for, isn't It, 22 sir? 23 A No, sir. 24 Q What is this for, Doctor? I A What Is what for? 2 Q This, Doctor. 3 A That's a question and answer. 4 Q X understand that, Doctor. My question is, what is it for? 5 A If the employees ask questions, how they should answer them. 6 Q Isn't that exactly what I asked you, Doctor? That is the 7 information that you are going to give these employees when they ask '8 questions, why is this health study taking place? 9 A No, sir. 10 Q Doctor, didn't you just say that? 11 A No, sir. 12 Q What did youjust say? 13 A I said that's an answer to a question and answer. That section 14 here that we are talking about now is quite unrelated to the basis of 15 that study. 16 Q Doctor, why is it included in this? See at the top, It says 17 "Dr. Suskind, Krummrich study." That's the identification of it, isn't 18 it, sir? 19 A Yes, sir 20 Q Then it does relate to it, doesn't it, Dr. Rousch? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And Doctor, it's put in there in order to give your employees 23 accurate information about the potential for dioxin poisoning, isn't It, 24 sir? 13 1 A ,No,, sir. . \ \ ' ' r. .. 1j f 2 Q Why is it in there, Doctor?. * 3 A So that the foreman and the supervisory personnel at Krummrich 4 can use this information toanswer the questions that may come up from" 5- the employees. - r^ %r ^ * . <, J 'r ' 6. Q Then it is in there' for. the purpose of informing the employees, 7 is it not, sir? ''' 8 'A. Yes, sir. r ^ r \ ' v *r -* .i 9r Q 'Isn't, that what I Just asked you, Dr. Rousch? / 10 A - But it's indirect, It's not direct. !. .: 11 Q . i don't care whether it's direct or Indirect.' It's in there 12 for the purpose of informing;employees, isn't it, sir? 13 A' ' Lr. v ;`:' A Yes;' sir. ' - Y, . 1' 14 ' r ^ 't f ^ ''V' , v j ` '. Q And.ihithis,draft you are- Informing the employees of the facts, r ` ^ ^ r V . V v r' - .15 aren't you,-sir? * 16 * ,-Y .. i, J " Y .. ' V . - A Yes, sir. ; V V; ..* Y Y ``v .; ' - ` ' .' 17 Q And isn't it important that1employees be informed of the facts? 18 ,MR. HEINEMAN: Objection, your Honor. The question is vague 1 \ 19 and indefinite. All facts,*any facts? What facts? 20 THE COURT: Objection Is"overruled. It is within context, it 21 is nt vagu or indefinite." - 2 2 - A They should know the facts. 23 A 24 Q Now, Doctor, this second, September 28th memo was submitted to the legal department for consideration, wasn't it, sir? PENCAD CO.. BAYONNE. N .J. 07002 1 A JYes, sir. 2 Q It was submitted to the law department for consideration, 3 wasn't It, sir? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1497 was marked for identification.) 6 Q I hand you Plaintiff's Exhibit 1497 and see if you recognize 7 that as Phoclon Park's response to that question and answer form that was 8 submitted to him dated September 28th, 1979. You recognize that as his 9 response, do you not, Or. Rousch? You got a copy of It as well. 10 ' A Yes, sir; ; / ' ' 11 MR. CARR: I 'offer Exhibit 1497 Into evidence If It please 12 the Court. ' 13 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1497 was offered Into evidence.) 14 THE COURT: Any objections? - 15 MR. HEINEMAN: If I can reed It for a moment, your Honor* 16 THE COURT: Sure. 17 MR. HEINEMAN: No objection, Judge. 18 THE COURT: All right. Admitted without objection. 19 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1497 was admitted into evidence.) 20 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1497A was marked for identification.] 21 Q You recognize 1497A as the blow-up of 1497, Dr. Rousch? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 MR. CARR: I offer 1497A into evidence if It please the Court. 24 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1497A was offered Into evidence.) 1 THE COURT: No objection to that, also? 2 MR. HEINEMAN: X didn't hear the question. 3 MR. CARR: 1497A, counsel. 4 MR. HEINEMAN: No objection, Judge. 5 THE COURT: Fine. Admitted without objection, thank you. 6 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1497A was admitted Into evidence.) 7 Q Now, with this memo, Dr. Rousch, Park kills the thought of 8 telling the .workers about the dioxin content of the material they're 9 working with, doesn't he,'sir? 10 A I'm sorry, I didn't catch your question. 1 .J i 4 _. * 11 Q Park kills the thought of telling the workers about the dioxin 12 content of the material'they!re working with, or to which they may be 13 exposed, doesn't he, sir? 14 MR. HEINEMAN: Objection, your Honor. That certainly calls IS for speculation on the part of the witness. Mr. Park obviously Is offerln 16 his opinion as it states in the first sentence. 17 THE COURT: Overruled. It Is a proper question. 18 A No. 19 Q Doesn't he suggest or state that the answer to question no. 3 20 should be changed to read, and he gives a proposed change? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q And If they adopt his suggested answer, It effectively ellminat 23 the informatlon ithat is given the workers ln 1496A, that is the memo of 24 September 28, '79, that information is eliminated, it's wiped out, It's 1 killed, isn't It, Dr. Rousch? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q Yes. And Doctor, Park tells something that suggests putting li 4 there something that's a lie, doesn't he, sir? He says, well, several 5 analyses have indicated dioxin levels below that found by OSHA. We're 6 still checking this. The truth of the matter is several analyses showed 7 dioxin levels considerably higher than what OSHA said. 8 A Yes, sir. 1 9 Q And this is another lie, isn't it, Dr. Rousch? 10 A It's incorrect'. ' 11 Q Doctor, if he knew the truth and he had to know the truth 12 because he got a copy of the September 28th memo and he says to change 13 it to indicate that the analyses were below found by OSHA, he knows what 14 the truth is, doesn't he, sir? And he is telling your people to put a 15 lie in there in its place, isn't he, sir? 16 MR. HEINEMAN: Objection, your Honor. Mr. Carr's question 17 assumes that there are no other test results of which Mr. Park was 18 aware at lower levels. 19 MR. CARR: And there aren't any other tests at lower levels 20 of this spill sample, counsel. They are all at higher levels than OSHA. 21 THE COURT: Objection is overruled. 22 MR. HEINEMAN: Well, your Honor, may I state another objection 23 in that connection? 24 THE COURT: Sure. 1 HEU HEINEMAN: The document that he is referring to doesn't 2 say anything about a spill sample. 3 MR, CARR: Yes, It does. It talks of question no. 3 talks aboi 4 samples for dioxin to determine the validity of the OSHA data. The OSHA 5 data clearly question no. 1 shows, samples taken near the manufacturing 6 unit of the plant, there is no ambiguity about that at all. 7 THE COURT: Objection overruled. There is no ambiguity. 8 A I'm sorry,:would you repeat the question? 9 (Previous question was read by the reporter.) 10 A 1 don't know why he wrote that. 11 Q I'm not asking you why he wrote It, I'm asking you what he 12 did was to tell your people to put an untruth in there, didn't he, sir? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And an untruth when you know the truth Is a lie, Isn't It, 15 sir? 16 A If he knows the truth. 17 Q Yes. And the' truth was as we have previously established, 18 the earlier response to question no. 3, wasn't that the truth, sir? 19 MR. HEINEMAN: Objection, your Honor. Mr. Carr Is confusing 20 the two questions. Question no. 3 says, "Has analyzed some samples for 21 d i o x i n I t doesn't refer to the spill at all. 22 THE COURT: Objection is overruled. That's the one, that is 23 the objection I ruled on second to your first objection about that same 24 question. It's already been ruled on and the objection Is overruled agalt. 1 You may continue, Mr. Carr. 2 A Yes. 3 Q And Doctor, they followed his suggestion, didn't they, sir? 4 A X don*:t know. :i . ` 1 5 Q Well,, you'll soon find out. 6 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1498 was marked for Identification.) .J , . V j "\ 7 Q I hand you Plaintiff's Exhibit 1498 and ask you.if you 8 recognize that as a Monsanto exhibit dealing with this study? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1498A was marked for identification. 11 Q I show you 1498A and ask you If that is a page, Page 2, 12 numbered 2 of that October the 2nd,.1979 final version? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 MR. CARR: Offer 1498 and 1498A. 15 (Plaintiff's Exhibits 1498 and 1493A were offered 16 into evidence.) 17 THE COURT: Any objections? 18 MR. HEINEMAN: May I see 1498, please? No objection, your 19 Honor. 20 THE COURT: Admitted without objection. 21 (Plaintiff's Exhibits 1498 and 1498A were admitted 22 into evidence.) 23 Q Now, Doctor, Park suggested the answer to question no. 3 is 24 adopted exactly and word-by-word, is it not, sir, in Exhibit 1498? 1A 2Q 3 not? 4A Yes ',.sir. And your workers at Krummrich, this is the final version, is it Yes, sir. 5 Q And this is what the workers were finally told at Krummrich, isn't 6 It, sir? 7 A I don't know. 8 Q Doctor, it is the final version, isn't it, sir? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q And.it therefore constitutes what the workers were finally told 11 at Krummrlch, doesn't it, sir? 12 A No, sir. 13 Q What were they finally told, Doctor, if this is not the final 14 version, where is the final version? 15 A The final version Is what the supervisory personnel tell them. 16 Q And this is what the supervisory people were told to tell them, 17 isn't that correct, sir? 18 A It was a suggested answer. 19 Q This is what they were told to tell them, Isn't it, sir? 20 A No, sir. 21 Q It's not what they were told to tell them? 22 A No, sir.- 23 Q What is it, Doctor? 24 A It's a suggested answer when they're asked questions. i/ 1 Q And it's what they have been told, the way they have been told to 2 answer these questions, isn't it, sir? 3 A At least partially so, but that's not all they would tell them. 4 Q Well, where is the what else they would tell them? 5 A The personnel, what the personnel people over there know about 6 dioxin and chlorophenols. 7 . Q All these people listed on the front page there, Bishop Is In 8 charge of your press relations, he makes up publications that go to the 9 workers. Neunreiter, he is in that area, is he not? Rousch, that's a 10 doctor, Dr. Rousch, in charge of letting the people know what can happen 11 from dioxin, he is the head of the department that's supposed to be caring 12 for the health of these people and telling them about the potential for 13 exposure to toxic poison, isn't he, sir? 14 A Yes, sir. IS Q And Tillman, he is a doctor, too, isn't he, sir? 16 A Yes, sir, 17 Q And there is other doctors in there, aren't there, sir? 18 A Dr. Coleman. 19 Q And there's people in there dealing with-- Molloy, there is the 20 plant supervisor, superintendent, manager, isn't he, sir? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q There is Isham, he is another press relations man. Helsler, Gaffe? 23 there is a toxicologist. 24 A No; epidemiologist. 1 Q Epidemiologist. So you've got everybody there on this list to 2 receive this and all of these people, as a matter of fact they wars all on 3 the versions of September the 28th, too, weren't they, sir? 4 A Part of them. 5 Q Well, many of them. 6 A A great number of them. ,,Many of them are on there at least. 7 Q Bishop is there, Coleman, Gaffey, Helsler, Molloyy Tillman-- 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q .And Bishop, Mateucci, Papageorge, and Rousch, Spano, all got a 10 copy of Park's memo, didn't they? 11 A Only four got a copy of Park's, five of us. 12 Q Including yourself? 13 A Yes, sir. ._ 14 Q Spano? 15 A Yes, sir. J, 16 Q And somebody name of H.M, Keating? Who is H.M. Keating? 17 A He worked for Papageorge. 18 Q All of these people then,,knew as you knew that Park was suggesting 19 that the workers be told a lie, didn't they, sir? 20 A An Incorrect statement. ,, 21 Q An untruth, I think you characterized it. As a matter of fact, I 22 think you characterized it as, a lie as well since you knew the truth, Isn't 23 that correct, Dr. Rqusch? .: 24 A I don't think X called It a lie. 1 Q Well, Doctor, If you deliberately say something that Is a 2 that is untrue, isn't that a lie? 3 A If you knew that, yes, 4 Q Well, h6r;did know it, didn't he, sir? 5 A It would seem so. 6 Q Yea. Now, all of these people, Doctor, approved, approved if you 7 will, Including yourself, because you knew these facts, you had these memos, 8 it wasn't new to you. All of these people, important people in Monsanto, 9 approved the telling of a lie to the workers, isn't that correct, Dr, Rousch? 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q And Doctor, as time went,on, people asked for copies of these, or 12 wanted to find out about these results, didn't they, sir? 13 A I'm sure they did, but 1.,don't recall. 14 Q After the studies, the studies that-- one of the questions asked IS there Is right after, this would be the second page of the exhibit, again, 16 where you repeat to:'them in the final version, by the way nobody, corrects 17 that. Now, as far as chloracne is concerned, this is the third copy of 18 this memo that you received, Dr, Rousch, in which it's-- chloracne is describe 19 as a skin condition similar in appearance to acne in adolescents, and you 20 of course know that chloracne can be and is frequently much more serious 21 than teenage acne, you know that, don't'you, sir? 22 A And quite often not so, too. , 23 Q My question is you know that it can be a lot more serious than 24 teenage acne. It has sacs of pus on ;the skin, doesn't it, Doctor? A Yes, sir. 1 2 Q It can cause severe disabling-- severe disfiguring scars, can't it, 3 Doctor? 4 A My last statement was incorrect. You don't get pus bags from chloracne. 5 6 Q You don't? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q Doctor, I don't have it handy, I don't think I have it handy and 9 I don't know it's important enough,to dig it out, but haven't you seen chlore* 10 where they have large yellow, well, for want of another word, bags of pus 11 on their face? 12 A No, sir, those aren't filled with pus. 13 Q What are they filled with? 14 A Debris of cells, 15 Q What is pus, Doctor? 16 A Fus is a purulent material that responds to a certain kind of 17 bacterial involvement. 18 Q It's the debris of cells, isn't It? The yellow stuff that you , \ 19 have in pus, isn't that-- 20 A No, sir, well, that's- part of it. 21 Q And Doctor, you get large bags of that on the skin, don't you, 22 sir? 23 A Yes, and they're filled with the same kind of material on the back 24 of my skin, that's what fills up those cysts. 1 Q Now Doctor, you knew when you saw all three of these memos that 2 chloracne only in Its mildest, mildest form Is a skin condition similar to 3 appearance in acne in adolescents, you knew that, didn't you, sir? 4 A No, sir, 5 Q You didn't know that that's what it is in its mildest form? 6 What Is it In Its mildest form if it is not the blackheads and little ` 7 yellow bumps that one gets when he is a teenager? 8 A There is a difference between those two. 9 Q I know that, sir., My question is the mildest form of chloracne 10 is like teenage acne, isn't It, sir? 11 A It's hard to distinguish* 12 Q Is the answer yes, that the mildest form is like teenage acne? 13 A No, sir. , '- 14 Q What is the mildest form.like, Doctor? IS A It's similar to but not the same as. p ' i' 16 Q The mildest, form of ,chloracne is similar to teenage acne, Isn't 17 it, sir? . 18 A - Yes, sir;'' \ / 19 Q And it can go up many times more severe than that, can't it, 20 sir? 21 A Yes, t f\ 22 ' Q Now, they are not told that, are they, sir? 23 A No, sir. 24 Q They are told about what,it's similar to in its mildest form, aren't they, sir? 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q You didn't correct that,,,did you, sir? 3 A No, sir. 4 Q Now, Doctor, they also ask the question, they ask the question 5 why are blood and urine samples Included when they never have been before, 6 and they are given the answer that Dr. Susklnd Included these tests to 7 verify that there are no ill effects other than chloracne. 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q And this was a health study and that's why those tests were given, 10 to ascertain the state of the health? n 12 A Yes, sir. Q Insofar as the laboratories could help you ascertain the state 13 14 of the health, isn't that correct, sir? A Yes, sir, ` 15 Q Now, Doctor, about a year later--- 16 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 149$ was-marked for identification.) 17 18 Q X hand you what has been marked Plaintiff's Exhibit 1499 and see 19 if you can recognize that as an update on the Susklnd health study dated 20 August 13th, 1980. 21 A Yes, sir. 22 MR. CARR: Offer that exhibit into evidence, if it please the 23 Court. 24 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1499 was offered into evidence.) THE COURT: Any objections? 1 2 MR, HEINEMAN: Your Honor, the witness is neither a recipient nor the author of this document, and therefore I don't think adequate foundation 3 4 has been laid to its admission, I object to it on that basis. 5 THE COURT: Objection is overruled. It is admitted over objection. 6 (Plaintiff'8 Exhibit 1499 was admitted into evidence.) 7 MR. CARR: Your Honor, I'm passing to the jury the second page 8 of the exhibit, not the cover page. 9 THE COURT: Fine. 10 Q Dr. Rousch, so that the jury will be fully Informed, the cover 11 page shows that it was prepared by Sara Galnor Collins and that copies went 12 to Curtis,Molloy, Papageorge, Bishop, Callis, Carter, Gaffey, Isham, Keating, 13 Park, and Spano, didn't it, sir? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q Some of those people work in your department, don't they, sir? 16 A Dr. Gaffey. 17 Q And the one sentence on this cover page is "Attached is the 18 request and an update on Suskind's study at Krummrlch," and signed Sara 19 Gainor Collins, isn't it, sir? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q Now, this page, it talks.about the first question suggests that 22 Dr. Suskind is examining what if any long term health effects associated 23 with chlorophenol, again described it as a skin condition similar to 24 adolescent acne and states that copies are going to be sent to individual 'P 'it j C j >:r< V` ' ; l- 27 employees\ physicians and; that th rsulta of the study would he made public 1; \ ' -V j -J 3 ' - \ .. upon: completion* do you see that-,,sir? , 2 r- % -r-,AA'. Yes: sir. ;1 | ? $._> ^ ,* v. , -wV/'"':1 ' 1 ""* : 3; /Q 4' ^ ,' r Now, the study was actually completed.and as a matter,of fact dat4 vt ^ 1 ^ >J - -, 1 ( ^^ .' Vt ` f, aa.September 29th, 1980, wasnlt It, sir, about a month and a half after this `s- "update, is that correct, sir? '6 7';- Yes, ,sir. . , "r^ A. . . .. *: . ' v . Q - But It was never made public, was it, sir?, 8, -V J 10 ; ''A... No,`sir. * * k J* * - "' J r * r' Q Except insofar asxI have_made it public, 'isn't.'.that correct, sir? A X don't know. ;L r' . ,r r ^ ,1 , 14^ *J ' ' '' V ' j 1 ' ' * L` ,n 12 ' Q Well,1you know it was never made public,' don't you, sir?': .. :A Up until a month or so ago. ; . t .. ' 13 r Q Up until the time that It came out in this case, isn't that right? 14 : A ' No, sir." J15 -, - ' ' . `"V PN GAD C O .. BA VON NE , N.J . xBO:- ",^-L Q 1i6.y l Sir?: " 17 .-A * No, sir. r -.J` ; A '* ; t > / '* ' * ". \ 18 .. .Q ' Oh, how did it come out?..How was it made public,' sir? /' 'A , When Dr. Suskind called. that-draft the final report. 19 20 ' .(Plaintiff's Exhibit 1500 was marked' for identification.). '21 \ I'm handing you Plaintiff's Exhibit 1500 and ask" you if that is ' 22 ;therfinal report "submitted.by Dr. Suskind on. November 29th, 1980? .. y 23 >^A No, sir. ^ '- 24 ^ ' Q Sir? , " ; ", y t 'S- ^' % ; . ' ' * J J ' * i.Ji'r\ V- .i .* , 'iiy, :r `-; i.,V W\ U V,_ v . - V ' . '/ s- ' ^ ` -l >,rv'-ir '*- ^ .1 - / A -,,No, sijr.,\ jV*/j'oj 5 f'--,4v'*/, j'4'. ..r. ^ -v # ,2 ' ' . . Q V It1s dated September. 29th* 1980, is.lt not,, sir? 3 A ' No,-sir.' '> 41/ '5 Q ; Arid it^isthe final report? "S-~ a No,, sir. , " :^ ^ \ i~ , . ^ 6 .* - Q Then it.is the final report?' ,, r 7 ' :a . -No,, sir. ' \ - r- \ v - 8 :' Q Ip- 9 \A s* 10 , - Q: Then is there another report more final than this?H ' ,4' - i \r-j> ( . 'f ,`i. - ' ., No/sir^ ,"' / 1 \\ , ' 1.^ Is-there another .exhibit,put out anywhere, that contains a single , 11 - .word' different than what *s in.here? , rrji: ,t 12; 4 ;-1'a *- No,' 'Sir.- / - `< \ ` r <, 13 'Q Was there anything changed from this; document at1.all, sir? 14' 1 _ .A' `' No, sir.'- i 1 V.:`-v,, * . ' \ 15 irJ 16 Q Was there a new exhibit put out? . ' K '\ / L! . / a No, sir.. J:* ^ ..-' '1 1 ^ ; '; '" 17 q Is there any other inexistence other than this one? - 18 /' . A J 'No, sir. J* * ^ t i - t- j . / "i v V: ' ' j L^ * ' 'r ' -* 19 . Q - This-is -the finalvand last one, is it not, sir? r * i 20 \ "A !" It is the last draft thus far. ' ' r. 21 ..,Q: * Thus,'far?. . ^ '1 ; 22 .-; r -a ^Yes, slr;:-.-. . , . ;.v ,' ,- -* - `.1.,V " ;r 23 ' q 24, \ ' A : Has' Suakind tpld. you that he is going to putrout another draft? \ - .. * ^ J. 1^ -A 1 A*'' He isjgoing-to "put out a,final report., v ^^ *'"- j* ' ' r* , r ,.', > "' 1 , pJ_r,,*v -^t" M * , 1 >n r- * 1 J * ljf J Al x 11111h _^ Ji ` , sir u H . i W \ ./Vv V<-V> .' PENGAD CO.', BATON NE, N.J, ~ V . ^v '/ :j ,Sf ,, ' . ' y - "r. - i*** :` ^ Lj, 1 ' ' rr* 4, i ** ^.5 `,.: -' * ^ ; r-> ,u .~L*-.* -, , :* - '!>.' 'k / ' Q . When-did he7tell you-that; sir, and* by what;means did he tell . r .' L ,/ you? - ' \ t : `V* -V V * ^r \ ; 1 ,-* 1 .; - 3 r : J A We withheld-- , ' ,ki': . 'rL ; , ' '-'.vr -. ' " r. - r- j/' .. 4 V Q . My. question is when7did he tell you that and by what weans did .5 ' he teil you?. - l' . ,- . * r- ^ / '6 'A ' During intermission.of this Court. ` ; 7* ` Q During the period o f `time that'you were oh the: stand under cross . " . , ** 1 ", 1` ," * 11 8 .. examination, isn't that correct;: sir? . , .1 J,J +/rr^ L: ^ r j { i 9* 10 " ' A ,Yes,, sir. > J . 1\ 7 -r k \ ' '1 ^ ' .i. '^ r ' 1 Q . During 'the time that I told you1that this report, had never been 11 ' made public during the time that. I told you it had' never, been given to the 12 workers, isn't that correct, sir? L 13 ' A .Yes,- sir; ' - /,> . * t *y 5_'v * 14 '15 ;Q Now, did Dr* Suskind send you a letter telling you that he's, -, ", `' going to put, out another report? 16 17 , '' .A*:. No, sir. r. r k : ' - v ; , "-_. Q '' Did,he tell you orally that he'is going to make.another report? 18 , .19 *" 'L- A.\. .Yes,, sir. ' ( lr:' , - ,r Q What did he, say; sir?1 , ,,;" " ' . r- 1*" s. ( ,^ ' , ^ 1l' - J- / * 20 - A He said he was working on a final report.-. ' ' 21 Q At your, suggestion?,-; ^ ' -r ; ; c 22- ; . A No, sir*. "r' r '^ 7' -r. .* , \* 23 Q He's working on-- -thisone,came out in 1980, did you ever get another . . ,-'; 1i> *' ; .1 '' ,. ` S `1 1- .24 . bit of communication in between the time we' started this case, sir, and -y ! + "- 1 ,'v! ,,<*1 i ` (' -r,,v . ^ )i . ^- , i.,y?: \x - j-i fiJ i - . - / > S'.'. '-.'Vi' -%v'.,v '>y^ BAYONNE. N.J. 1 brought out this information, did you get another piece of communication 2 from Suskind referring to this report? 3 A Yes, sir. , ,, 4 Q What did you get, sir? - . 5 ,A Asking.for a final payment* 6 Q Final payment because he .had done the final work and you sent the* 7 final payment to him, didn't you, sir? i 8 A No, sir. ' 9 Q You didn't send the final payment to him7 10 A No, sir. - 11 Q When did you get the request for the final payment? 12 A A number of times from 1980 until now. 13 Q And you've never paid it to him? 14 A Until just recently. . 15 Q You did pay it to him,,then? Dr. Rousch, why did you tell me you 16 didn't pay it to him, just a second ago you did, and now you say you did? 17 Why do you tell me these* things, Dr. Rousch? - . 18 MR. HEINEMAN: Objection, your Honor, it mlscharacterlzes his 19 testimony. - 20 THE COURT: Objection is overruled. 21 Q Why do you tell me these things? ', 22 A i'm telling you what happened. 23 Q Doctor, you tell me one minute that he's never, been paid, hasn't 24 received the final payment. *And then two seconds later you say that he has, i ; . 'V i ' .j ^, 1 - j. ,. Vr, -* J-* *fK-i t.; . y * * 'i Wi t , ' r -`r / `"'i 1: rv"'L ' , ` been .paid. - -- .,j. . v L r- 1 : - v j1 2 Vr MR., HEINEMAN: Objection, yourHonor. 3 ", ' A .ta.A" Now my question is why.do, you do that? 4 , > ''-.A ", I didn't'say thatiV/: V , - ' *, 5; - MR. HEINEMAN: The firequestion was did you send.it to him. - _ F' - .'*1' ' . * _ '^ r p / ''.- s after/he asked for final payment, and he said no. 6 J:-\j.r A; From'i960 to 1985.; 7 ^ ' i\ \ ' \V. ; ^ ^ -8 Z "" A 9 THE COURT: Objeetion is o v e r r u l e d " , We refused to pay him. .; - ^ ^"v"^ fj^ ^ ^?J ^ - *, n^ s r'r` * * JLr 10 ' f ; . ' Q When did you pay him? ^ nr \ ` 'A ; ,I'm not,even sure it's paid yet. . rl* . ^ ^1 'J *" * V v*J r J r1 j ,' ; ~ ' *', - -t '1 ' J*> .*e n - Q .Have you approved the payment, Doctor? tL a ,, !> J` A, - Yes, sir^ -; . . .. '.* '' :-J / ^ ' ' '' 13. 14^; ' ; Q When did you approve the^payment? V k15 " , A -'.` In the last month. 1 .. lfe.' ' 9 Within the last month? -> 'Vv. , - ' r 'i ^ J7 r i/<,-a? . Yes, . sir.' J ,J . * 'v*':y -v v. . L^'- . . . ^L.> . . ,, ,, i?j ;- 18 '. K - And you approved that payment' after ! started interrogating you? . .19 " ^ .A. ' No; sir-- well,-yes, sir. J L , ' --> ;;" ' ''' "r 20 . i Q . Yes* Did you get another bill for it? 21 \ A Yes, sir. * J r 22 ' , Q . When-.id* you get that Jbili7 . '% 4. 23.r24 . A It was iii-way of a call .from their financial man from Kettering, 'J r-""'r "' " t. ' . * '' ` - .. ,- - % V ' i W '*'* h * > > ` j" ,' * Q That was',ai reminder that;.it had.never been paid, isn't that correct PENGAD C O ., BA YO N N E. N .J, r ` lU'i ,v:'. I K i ::J- :? , %/j , V*' t . -v *-* r 32 1 S i r ? . ^ L' ' /** ,2 'f .. V../ A /Yes,'-sir,. . ` > 4- f 3 Q You didn't get another bill, he said, .''Hey,' the bill we sent you 4. , for ^* this ,,' final/draft or `1 f , r - ,,% - this *K final study has yp * ,, , ' - never been paid," %f, - 'ft . - -, Isn't that ' *- what he told you?- He dunned you for; the money, didn't he, sir? 5 ' J 6 ' v A ` Yes. "* '' , t `^ 1 j- 7 " -V Q ' And/you said, "Oh; I'm sgrry. I'll put it in the. mail/" 8 4- ' A- - No, sir, - .,, L'>.^ ^/ 9 . Q . ;What didyou say* sir? 'r -^ * T 1 'j-k'- A :I said; ""Is.'this the final report?"..'. * ( ' 1" . * ' * * - ^ > ,/ - v-` 1 -* ,* ,A '', r '- J \ p* ,m U: Q And he said yes, it was, :and you said, "Okay,\I'll pay you," 12 *. - isn't that, "right, si r*? - .L ., " - r * r~ r 1v * *j .J " > fc ', , 7 r , -' 13 ; . A1, Ih;the last month'-- / ' .r. " i-1 ^ . _n r ,, t ^ ., , 14 . Q` Isn't that.right) sir? J, , J-J . 15 'v ', A Yes, sir,. ' j.", *'* a! ,, ^ ^ , 1 + // 16 , Q . Exactly as .I said/it?4 . - //. "\ .: 4... 17 A/. /Yea^sir,. ''* .. '/ .''v t 18 " _ Q L Now,'Doctor,'it,was;the final report/ he eaiditwaa the flnal 19- /report and-you said, "Okay, Itil pay you;", and so you have approved payment; 20 V N;^A; Yes, /sir. _ 21. ' Q Now, let me remind you of. something' that you just said a few ` * / : -*/ ' - . . ^ 22'-23' minutes earlier; >. f >* '' ^ - r rr'n , r- . * v - ^' \ "* /**; r A ' Yleeas,; sit,S-.,!r..;'I l * j." j- ^ - 'l* \ , s id 'H V ** - ' i j. ' iTi/if/!: <I ; ( > . ^ J?4f. i.v'-J-c' T - V- i * U`y /-r1 . * 24 Q ' Yfoou said it "wasn''t a final report and'that hie is 'going to redo J *AL t-r < v- {;i,--5i -/;'F' PEN G Ad ' C O .. B A Y O N N E ,-N .;J? OTOOI J<* _* . "v ' . - ' r ^ 1 l. / . - * ' . *M*/*-J-' * _* - Ifr V / : v. ' - ;*V> . '4 JL *'/* ' ' ./'"v J.''/ ,, / ' ' J' . >\ - . another final report, and you've said these two things within two minutes' ; [ ' '', 2 r- of'one .another,, Doctor. Do you recognize that^sir, what.you are saying in this case? .3- *' .. . ' -'.p. A' /'Yes; sir. 4 - -y . 7 'V 5 "* `Q ` How, Doctor,' from 19.80 up.until one month ago or less, than a 6 month ago the document that you have before .you was the filial report, - ' , , ' .7 \ wasn't- it, *sir? "- M /. ' , ' ' \ j --1 87 - A . It was the draft of the final report; ? - ' 9 7, : Q Were you'ever told by anybody at any'time that it was not his .10*- final,report?/ J '. - '* 7 >'' 7* r. ' ' , . ' - ,, -'/'./ V ' Ji ; , A.7 ,We told him it .wasn't. ' ". ` t '. J s ;^V p 12 Q /Were you ever told, at any time by Dr.'Suskind that that was not l \ -1J- rr * 1 Jjlr * ''-' ' >*, , " . 13 his final "report? ' / -7 7 r/r .. . J 14 ' / A Yes. ; \ `7 ' /r V' ' - ` '/ BAYONNE, N.J. 07 0 0 1 FORM IL 14 B ,, . is J#*,M -. "bk` Q oOuf.*- - 16 - says it? r ..O3 ' L 17 : r * A When did he tell you that, sir,.and where is the document that /` - - / V t -7- I .don't^ have it.. - , 2 ', 4UJ 18.. / Q * 1" ..`No, '.J*J you don't have * , ' *' it t because ^V 1^( it rdo1esn't" * exist, isn't *' V that correct, ** !m k 19: sir? ' . -J' "/' -; 6* .:4 ., 2*0-/A - A . It doesn'.t exist?. ,/ ' .' /' l ZU4 / `21 - Q' Yes, because, you were, never told by Dr. Suskind .in any kind of' f~ r 0 *. ^_ *? * f 22'* written form at all?that*'this/was-' not'-a.fIhalvreport, isn't' that correct, 7 ; . - ' :7', :7-/ v .'v ' / ' -1 ^ \ :V,- --l,< * i- S ' rtr's^i .: ' ' 23' ^ -sir?- i- ,7 /- f.n ' ** 1- 24. ". -A ' - No,' sir.'*1//*" ^^ '\^1*T1s"_!7f jVr. ^nt .?t>^ .,r ^ J';, 7) Xr.. ^ V"1 .1 ilr. f. > ` - >,'..- "L. L, ,1 ' -i -x/v ^ i 1 _7 f:; s-.j t ' 'v S > ^ '/,J , . l,r ' Q Where is the document then where he says this is not the final I 2 report, Doctor? A There is none, 3 Q And you were never told that in any document, were you, sir, that 4 this is not the final report? 5 6 A Yes. " .' Q Where is the document then? 7 8 A I don't have the document. Q Doctor, listen to my question. You were never told in writing 9 that this was not'the final draft, were you, sir? 10 11 A No, sir; no, sir. , Q And from 1980 up until 1985, June of 1985, there was nothing in 12 writing from Dr. Suskind other than this is the final draft, isn't that 13 14 correct, sir? A Yes, sir. ` 15 ; Q Doctor, did you ever write him a letter saying this doesn't look 16 17 like a final draft to me, send me a final draft? 18 A Never wrote-- ` 19 Q He never wrote you saying that it was not a final draft, he 20 wrote you saying it was a final draft, isn't that right, sir? 21 A No, sir;, no, sir.- * r\ ^. 22 Q What did he tell'you about this? - 23 ' A This is a.draft of the final report. \ ' 24 I Q Where does' he say it is a draft', sir? (v - k -v^'Vf> i - " A- ..It doesn*t;8ay it. J. ' h. .^ ' .., ,- - , : '* \, ,L, '^ 2- ^ `Q -Then why do you tell me he says it was a draft? ,He doesn't say . ,, 'b '*t . j *Tf U S7'^ t- - '_ 'y * . '^, 1It,liras a draft, .he tells you it1Is-his final report ,.-doesn't he, sir? r 3 i` / ` 'r - ; - v , . v - > * .- ' . , "4..' *> .A' No, sir. ' ' r .. J - . . ' 'L - ' '- . `.5 V \ Q Doctor, does he giveyou.the results, that he's reached? r 6 7 .. A -He gaye me preliminary results. * ' \-r. . : , Q ,, Where does he cell these..preliminary results, .Doctor? .. 1 8 ' *. 'A He doesn't.; ' : ; _L 9 ' -Q ' Doctor, if he doesn't call them preliminary results, where are 10 they described as preliminary results? : . 11. .A ' `It doesn't'say it. -j* ' ' ' ` , 1 L'r 4t`1. . ,, t " s .*. . j .1'r., " ,, 12 :v q Do you have a single document in,existence that 'describes this 13.. report as preliminary results? . ~ - . / , , ,' \l4 ` 'A ^'No,. sir. *t'; ` (\ ' `15 ' J Q Do. you have anything in existence other than telling.`you that. -J -L -1*-'' ^ ^ `. > '*'r"1'1- ^.P``I*,4 .*r'," ,1^ "*11*^ _ n " - t 16 ' this is the -final report,-sir,? `1 ; ^ L- '^ 17 ' ..1 A No; -sir. : / `` ' '/ ;l i' 18 Q: 19 - sir?" And Doctor, you have aunionthat you negotiate with, don't you," ' / 1. -i\ ' .' ..' -, . - ,r ' 20 \ `V We have a number of unions we negotiate with. , -- i /V'' V> i>i{if.ij, V3-- . - > - . 1.* . 21 Q -And yourhave ;:a union-that has asked you'.,for these 'results,, isn't '{j? J.,. Lfj f i -- >V * r ' i M ' 22* , ,-that rights sir? ' : ,,v--' i.*J* ,*1. L* 23 / A- I would isuspect .so. .V* \ .. 1' i i;j .' Vr* - N -; , ^ - ,> . - ! . . 2,4 i "C- '* '^ 1(Plaintiff *8 'Exhibit"1501 .was, marked for identification.) 1.''C11. t'v" ?> ) h r ?j s ;^ ^ ^'tj',v.r, - .(1'|.*r,t i* jt 1 t ^y ^` - - r ' -^ i ' ' F , ^ pr "^. (* f ~ tL m m- \ * 1 . BAYONNE, N.J. i > ; J1"1-'' t V.AA M fiy* ^ 36 :f : Q . Hatiding you now what has been marked Plaintiff s Exhibit 1501, I T '" which ;..M`M consists of about 7 V ?- four pages ask .you if you f M- recognize that as ''* _ a: u , document dealing' Wlth this .report and the union's; request *for. this report* '-3;'. 'A' : 0> A A *. ' ^ 'V`- . "A ' '' -r-- A ' V . ,r ' , ' r,;4A , .t,.*';v MR; .HEINEMAN: This ,ls:;what number, 1501? / A / t .rr r J ; V 5- MR. J,CARR: Your Honor. I,don't think! offered 1500 into evidence* 6- Y offer 1500-^of the report Itself-Into ev^ldehce. 1* r "' 7 . J`j 1' -T , ^ , A / ' A .' " ' , M 4_>, ^ J1 ^ v ' V. 7 _ r* J4 '' 7^ v 7,-" - , (Plaintiff'sExhibit 1500"was offered into;.evidence.) * r rE ' / 'THE COURTS; He has just handed you 1501. ' ,' .:V \ w . L ' , : A' f\' `MR;/CARR: 1500 is :the.report, counsel* ^ \ A . rM y ' , :ior y( ,1THE C0URT:.Do you.tiave. anyobjection to 1500,' the report? V. V ;AA A A y , * ' -v A *A ' ; . -MR. HEINEMAN: No,) we have no nobjection to 1500, your Honor. 11 ' * * - t J T ' - -1, r- ' ' , u (i v V \ . 1 . r' " V ' JL _ L. I. <> r *1 ` \-12, ' < * 'THE (COURT: FiheM.lt/ls admitted. without objection .Thankv ` i. , .ix you. : ''(f; ->/ 'L `) ` - .r.r: , _ ).*( 7 ' L ",14 ; j> : 7 (Plaintiff'd Exhibit 1500 was admitted into evidence.) '(if i i , r ir " ; JMR*, I. Hf,E~I1 Nf EMAN1: Bu- ,t'' wLe,J4- haven't'said "k * r a*nythi- ng raVbo u. t 7 l50Ty-eX *t i, *' J ' L'^ ^ _J J /+ 1. f ^n I Y^ ^ ,l ' ' ^% j 'h Ai 6 ; ; ;r .'' Y (THE COURT: Not yet.., Thc question has been asked,"! don't , n- , believe beenanswered'yet '18. Q Doctor*, you recognize'1501 as a .1Monsanto" document dealing with " , , t *r - , ` . - 7 . / v ^ y ''l. -rr'. ^ ' k ty . , 7 . ^ 19 . - v the dioxin information and the Suskind; report, do you not, -?1,,; - r * '7.1VjW-ir- riiV^V'' Ai J.JA-j-v *: -'X /< <`,.>? J sir? J- `. - - - 1' r- W 2- +. V -i > , ' * L . *1 ' 'r - ` , , - ,,v y.j - ' 20 - .A- 'Yes, Air;^ 7-\ .yx.b v\ - A ' ,K- - : , r _r >Jj y ' y -Al":;. j . - 21, / : ' , MR. CARR:,. I offer -1501 into .evidence.-if. it please the Court. - '' 22 '^ 1 J. : '' M '` -' ' (Plaintiff *s?Exhibit"-150 was-ffred -intd vidence.)' / f, / 'M ' '' sr, ; ' ; ` rM; ` r r'. T- "-23_J '. -- THE COURT: .Any objections ^tol501?; : 'M , ' ^ - - ' iw". i-U?-x 'j *jjflJ w-'V-^ . v- -.fi-i*- K'' "r < * , ; - > , vv , ' >. * ' , , .24.''' ^ MR. HEINEMAN: Your..Honor, my only objectioh;,would be that there BAYONNE. N .J: 07002 JS;. ' ^ .Q: 37 1 lia no evidence that this witness has ever .seen this document before.. He. ;2 .3 V didn't write it, it Isn't written to him, there Is no evidence tht he's .' ` j. ' t ever seen the ..documents that comprise Plaintiff rs Exhibit 1501 and therefore I don't think an adequate foundation has been laid"for its 4 .. admission.,/X object to it. 5; , ' V- r1 / 6 V *:/ 7' THE COURT:. Objection overruled. It is admitted, over objection. ; (Plaintiff's Exhibit .1501 was'admitted into evidence.) r8.r " .(Plaintiff''a Exhibit 1501A\was marked ,for identification.)\ Doctor* 1501A, a blow-p,,bf 1501? '- r" . `J . v 9 10 r: A Yes* sir* '... -V\. 'v *. - / / 11 MR. CARR: /I offer,150lA.,lnto:evidence if it please the Court.' (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1501A was offered into evidence.)' 12 1 * . ' - v t * p r' , % * ' ,,L * - -l' ^ r ' i' \' THE COURT: Same objections? , 13 14 MR. HEINEMAN: Which, page is it? . 5 16 ' MR, CARR: Last pagei , v _ - r _ j'"1 '- j,, i .. a`J , V, ' '> . .'" . " rv'- ` V " ' MR. HEINEMAN: Same' objections, your Honor. ' -17 ' THE.COURT: I'll incorporate thosesame objections. MR. HEINEMAN:, In addition, your Honor, if i might object to it 18 . ^ ''-^i- i;r ;> <^ fi'*iV Siif , ' *S. _ J: Jf-/ - 19, as a hearsay *document as welit^T ^ Vs 'l ^ ' " , t ' , "f , 1 /< -*t " \ s, S*.%>- .-i ,-- 20 THE COUfRRTT:' Okay. .That objection is also noted" ahd:denied. , ~v\ ^ - 1-';* '- 21 - (Plaintiiffff' 8 Exhibit 1501A.was admitted into vidence.)' 22- Q Doccttoor, ,the first, page of 1501-- -oh, by the way, who is Shaneberger? '/ -/,,> /", j3j V .J1r i/r ^ ' \fj>,,-' V' jIS-, i' ,vV j- ' t S. - * r '-r . . , 23 A He's one of. the workere at the Krummrlch plant.. .r 24 -Q Isn't he inore than'that? Isn't he plant superintendent? !1i* * . SA V O N N E, N .J. ` ** ` ^ T*' '" " ,, .2 . J -" ;r - J I r .Ar*- . ,Y&Y. ' * T S4: - YV 'w Y iVJ . .'i. Y S '^ v... 38 v . * - fjV - -- :" >Y ' \ ] A Molloy is plant superintendent. .2 , Q ; Well, no, I'msorry, Shaneberger was general superintendent of 3o` personnel? Y \ ,* 4,-- 1 A I don't, knowYthat. 'r ^ ,, .. ,'5. 'Y ! Q Well, he's deacribed.as such on'the last page. - ^ 6 A, 1 Yes, sir. :~ * Y- 1 _Q. And Molloy, who also received a copy of this, Is the manager of Jt _ Cl ^^ ^ -f r ht - . ' - , 1 L * ^8 .. the plant.superintendent, isn't he, sir? 4. ,Y 9=-. .10 " A `1 Yes, sir. ... 1, Y 'S - * ' y '-^' .-- . ' ,.. / Q . And the first page, points out that /the union has asked for. information about dioxin'and-they want to-- -it*s important enough to them , 11 \2 that-they even want: to make it/part,of the union negotiations, don't they, '. t -t f 13 sir?' / rr ' r,- > 14 Y .A* Yes, sir. : ; .. *> ,, ^ ^ t\Sl * -y .. . Y fsj { i\ v ;}* ^"'lYY**'^ ?Y VY r `Y,; , . 15 Q f And cthe"-there4i9 'a suggested.response *there that's on the second * 16 - page, but to.;get first, things first', before we get to that, the request for M7 v1 ' i^nfno' wrnma_ a4t4ion^ * Act aaLnm1meV f vrmohm,N v<; \ V ;>X K T\ tf* ' ' 1. / the unioahn y\ f - dated %!-'% r October the ` 11' 3^4t*1h, L 1iQ9O8^3I;r' +h that's 1501A, 18 *i!-sYn, ?'t iL. t, s; ir? vT^h'ei '[YlasVt pa;*g' e*.?7 f-\**Y *;Y*Y^ '. --i ` '^j ' ' ' r J * ' ' ". * ' 1? ; \ A Yes, sir; .^Y'\.. , ' .` ^ s .i . ,. 20' ^ Q ^ And the union vants the llst of all persons^ that's worked in 21 Departments 236, 237, 239,, and also on\262 and 268', correct, sir? 22: < - -A `Yes, sir. ' V.Y4"\ ' ' 1 BArONNE.,N.J. -'23 Q -. How, 262. and .268 Is where the. 2,4,5-T' was sent from Nitrb, 24 ' West Virginia, was mixed with the 2,4-D manufactured at the' Krummrich plant, .o't `\ + i K* ; yt, '2; if isn't;'that correct,-sir?, ; . , A I think that's correct. I wasn't a.member' of .-Monsanto at that. time. 3. ^ ,v Q Well, you received.infortaation to that effect, haven't you, a ':, 1 * ' f -^^ ^ \c Doctor? 5 ' *6 A; Yes, but my memory is not accurate on that. Bu t t h i n k ' w h a t ,,*vS you are`saying,is correct. / 7, , V ' J * , / . > 1 (' V ,* -. i* , J L- ' -' ' L ,` _ J ' ^ -- J* 'r < y.y- '- - -' 'T , - ,L ,8.;;^ L; Q -- Let me help .your memory a little, sir; L! ' . L *: . 1t l I don11 need to make.it 'as an exhibit, but this 'deals with questions, /dealing with the, Krummrich study 9 o r IW and it;identifies-When agent; "orange was made at the Monsanto plant, doesn't" V - '" j ' " :/*v - V ,: ; v V \ ; / " . ' it, sir? " * ` r ' '/> t' . v ? 12'-^, "1 > 13 \ 'A'; Yes; but. my problem'was the number. I knew that it was done; ^- ^- ' i s . ` ' , ; r` ,, " *^^'' / 1t r V* ~ 1 - i' v, , , ^ ^ * , 1 i ^v 'V Q See Department- 238 there, sir? .^ V A/ ' 1 s ` ` ,L _ ` . v . r '- ' ' ' k;'"k 4; >V. A . .7*-:-- .a*; f Yi>. e!1sr*.- c^. -,.^j ,^.r> 1f- f';.,r-/J1 V.;ii1 i ; - i V '' v.%/{r\ *. .'. f;'jrsii,.;'''-*^V ^ *-i,' ''.V.' l /**'' - ; - .J.,t-r1, .""tf`, h .- -v ; -- '--I ., i'- 15 r. .Q Yes.:^Now; 'Doctor, 'the union, the officials of the union wanting 16-' Monsanto to give, the list ofithe-workers that'worked in Departments 236, ' 17 v that's a pentachlorophenolv,237;, that's the ehlorophenol where;orthochloro- 18 -' 'r': r- /'V. phenol,.'parachldropnenbl, 2.',;4\-id}ichlorZ\btp`rh^en-ol-,7a'll` * that -is > made, ' Isn't * -V that , 19 . right?; . "\ - 2 0 > ,n -A Yes,; sir; - T 'L- ^ ' 2i : p ` And .238, which is also: a chlorophenol department, I forget just . 22; :what did they make in 239? ' '. ^ ' 'v - = . . . - ;J 23W A X. don't know. I forgot.,, , ' .. " v 24- Q They want."the list,.of all the people that work there, don't they, ' , J; , t. \ , U. ' $ *-v 1'<'|5a o 1 Y air?,'- . t ' v / . ' '/ .'// ^ *' .sc 2 *r ~A * Yes, sir.*, , / . \ k/- \> - -3' . r- Q. . .And they' alsowant. a copy of, the soli'sample analyses ..that were 4 y taken ^recently?, . 5 ! /A- /,Yes; sir. ' ' '-V*;1'-, . ' v ./ " Q You recall that you did sample the soir and you did find dioxin 7 In some of the areas of the plant; "sir?- You made it Into' a parking lot, 8 ' do youjrecall that, sir? ./ j * *. 9 A- / *Yes', sir.,.'. ` ; ./ 10*, ; Q . And they wanted a copy.of those soil samples, didn't they, sir? 11 - .. A, ' Yes', sir.;- - ; / *s /-f- /-' * ' r.`. _ 1*2 _ :Q And they also wanted that' you take*tests in and around the 13 ; equipment In 237 and'239 and/to give those' results.to them before the 14 equipment-was dismantled,rdo/ypu recall/ that, sir? %i \ A;,,i ** ^?.i tv1'i'j/i `. k y /k ^ ^/v/ v , *si*i v.?fc '" . '* 15 A- I'm not sure" of the relationship between that request and the , ' f,v: /} flS if, 1 ^ V '\ *' 16 time It was;dismantled.v/; - . *r n rt -- -!- 1'7. : r- Q Well j. It says, number four, when you read number four It says 18 they want the'tests of that equipment to be made before dismantling of 19. the equipment/; ,J\ / ; ./*/., ^ 1 , ... ,J , /.; - .* 20 A' Yes, sir, ,yesV ` ';,// ,L k' :/ 21J , Q And we had-the other day ,,the memo that'was dealing with the '" 22 , dismantling of ;the.equipment and the fact that you told-the people from the* 23 Baden Contracting Company "that dioxin would he 1there and that there could 24 be severe health .effects from that, dioxin, dp you recall* that; sir? r* *.v\. : 41 \ 1''. j '2 3 ',,V..- A Yes, sir., _ < oj. . ^ ,q ' sir? . ./x *''' *1 p ? - r ,,. * ; A * Yes, sir, V ' cj , 1 ,' - (Vf / - - , / > ... ; ' ' - ` . ,* t - 1 ; * pi " ' -,, 4 .. Q .' And yor own workers^ now .are wanting ,tests to be made of that 5 \ equipment and' wanting.information about.that,;arenTt they, sir? Aren 't '6 .they, sir? ` . . i J + 1 - ,, ** '` . ;7,' ,,! ' A .Yes, 'Sir, '/ * , ' ' -,, ' ' *8 . Q And they also want you tq test the people working in Departments ~9 ' 237 "and 239, don't they, 'sir? , ' Y 10 A Yes, sir.' v_ .>. 1 _v,.: * V. ` }1 ; ' 'Q . And they want a joint letter to be issuedto Dr.,Raymond Suskind 12, demanding a report on the results of thistesting1rin 1979? 13 A Yes,-sir.' ; v ' vV , f?X .-`j - -, '- . -, " '!i" V'/; -f 'W - . -v 14 ^ / Q '-And, Doctor, you at'Monsanto had that report since September of 15 1980,'didnVt you?;.f \ i 7V< \ -r ^ " J "^ f^ ^ (^ ^ ^--^l 4"Jl- ** " 16 . Yes,-sir. rt i-i-> S X . 17 Q 'And. here,! the union want you to join with them in a joint letter ,, \ 18 .demanding .that, you get-these results, and you had it for three years and 19 . nme'v1er gave it to them and-they'r`^e*g"Hettting' so 1desperate',for i1t they want you. 20. to join with-them in a joint letter, aren't they, sir?. -, 21 i- A - Yes, sir. - - v; s- 22 Q Sir? v`-;/.' ^ ' -v ^ / - :' - , ,/ ' k' 23 ;' .A ' Yes, sir.' ^ 24' Q And Doctor, you tell them the responses, that; one of the responses zooto V'-' ' , 42 - 1 that you give them is the union, and this is the second document, second i' 2. .page, of this document,, the union will be Informed that DMEH has made 3 " requests for a final report on' this study, such requests have been made l 4 again recently, If they insist,1 we will give them Suskind's address if they r'. * -. * / ' f-> ,. `5 ' desire 'to make a request .of their own, do you see. that, sir? * v A ' Yes, .`sir." 6v ^ " -- t- / - * " f n, L. Q ind`bf, course you had it;all this time, didn' t you, sir? 8 . ; A No final report. 'V .' ' ` 9 .Q Oh, Doctor,, we1have gone.,,through that farce once, already, It 10' 'was treated and you had it as a final report, and .that was1the only form M you had it in, ,and you hadit: andyou didn't give.it to the union, isn't 12 . that correct, sir? ' r " - X- '' '1 J i`s ^ iA ? IA - l.*'^ 13 - r* A rYes;,:sir.^> j ;" ([ /" ; . 1'-' '" ` -14 Q And you told them that yQU.had.made requests,1 well, you had made : *' ts '& v*'- .\ *, 'V* 'V * '!' '. i'i ,l - . y-> , ; ** is. requests forthevreport- andyou^had received'response to those requests, -.1* - 1 * . ' ,J , / - * .1 r' .1 * 16 "you received, the^report, didnit- y o u ? . - *, 1 , v J i ; Q 4\--- h' i/**- * > 1*'< .. * 17 - (i A No, sir., v \ ' ';!/' 18 -Q You didn't receive`the report dated September 29th, 1980 in ,rj . "1 , 19 1. response to requests, made? ; ' .j , j. r ' 20 > ir A We had subsequent requests after that: report was received. 21 Q Doctor, I beg to differ.^ You,did not, and if you*didj where are' 22 ` they, sir? Where are the subsequent requests? . >, .J. ; - 23-' i. \ A/ They?re not written. Vv\; ... ,* ; -- _ '`" L* r L` * _ ' 24 ` ' - t. Q Now, Doctor, you made no ,,memo either, did you, sir? i1 BAYONNE. N.J, <V`-L^.. /K'*/-"*.> n ^ * ' it ` t -**'''"v: ' * V- i . .: - A3 -- A No, sir. " v . - `' 1 ' Q There isn't a single .thing that you made a telephone call to t. i - -i * \f * . m *' r - 1, .* ^ ' i. ' 1j t ' AI **.* ' , ' * ' I , t T Dr.- Suskind where .1 want a final report. What you are saying now is somethin that has occurred toyou since;June of .1985, Isn't that correct, Dr. Rouseh? '_ A No, sir; no, sir." : **. ^ 3 " ' .. , Q v Dr. Rousch, did anybody make a memo; a call to Dr. Susklnd . 1 ' . . ,* " ` _/ '* < ,, J , 1 - , ' ,, V requesting a final report when you had this report since September, 1980? V. A V' V'- Q\ No, s i r . ;; \ '\ ` * , Jr L ' , i1 Nobody did, did they,r si?? . ^ ^' .`' A ` 'Q No, sir;"- . .` - ,'* - ' Nobody1put it in a-- rmade .a telephone record,- a memo of a telephone call*.nobody had.a letter;.nobody's got a carbon-copy, and you've got nothing `v fir/. f \ / > p . ; '' back from'Dr. Su9kind Vs ; ' - v; -, _V 1*U responding "one W fe =I "VV>',~~-v s way or, i >' ` 'an;oth1e'r, d.oyou1,_ . J sir? ../1 A No,,sir. - s', r j'. ` , L J Q You-ddoonn'1tt'hhaavveea note from Dr. Susskkdind saying it's1coming up, and. you know (why>,you don^t. have it, Doctor. - - < . - , , i . i ` * * 'V ! V". W Il 1 r - i , 'l *__ * ^* A . No, sir.. -, lt ' . Q Because yourhad 'the.report from September. 29th or,shortly before , September 29th, 1980.' Doctor, 'you didn't'even tell the union if you had that report, If-it wash!t a final report,^did you, sir? : ^ , A I don't know.- >\ > \ t , s Q J Well,' do you'see any place here that they're going to be Informed that tyou've got this report^ and .you have had^ it since September, 1980, that it's not final and. you are"goingJto send off. for a final one,, is that contained BAYO N N E, N .J. 07002 ^.t O 1 v. V-=, *'*H.V"')Vii:,' *. **i ** -^-- >FfVV.'*i v1. \> ,-'/>mi f- ; vvii*,F 'aV .*, '<-'f;\': . \, in there anywhere, Doctor? y .2 / ' 'A .. Noj' s i r .. , . 1 ,`'/ ' , 1 .. Q And Doctor, do you'know that the union was in fact told that 3 4 -' they had never! received a report from Dr. Suskind?.' '' , . A" ' No, sir. '' ,' 5` V,, ;' / . ' Q - Doctor, did you have" any,knowledge that this was going on with 6 * `r t. 7 . the^union as shown in iSOl?' *> T' ` ` r ^ . .8 . Lj 9 A * I don't recall'it. . \* . v.`` , , Q Now Doctor, theyrefer to your department, they say the union 10 , will'be informed that DMEH has made .a request'for.a final report on.this h , study .you were involved with-- was your department used there, without your , 12 knowledge,1'*w*a's''-th'er?name4 of jt" your, '* department f,* t,' used without .your knowledge? .1-. :- v ' ` i,}'i'*' tL ^v \ <- V ',f ` f " '* 13 A' ~IMoh't know. . ' . / v n :,'A 7 14 \Q . Now, Doctor, has tli, union:been told.now that you've got .a result, (ri*b- -S 'Y --W ' ^ `-L ` * *F 15 . 16 sir? ' A , . s. ' . / - f l * . - :i- ' , . - r" u : * ,j v *> i-y-'i'A.i v a .l .: - , ,' Wheh, Dr. Suskind said it .was a final report,- we called it a final ' 17 reportV ' y'vf--, -, 18 Q So what you are saying that you told them since our recess about 19 this report, didn't you, sir? > ` ' 20 A .* Yes,1 sir.-. _ >L-J.* ' * L . '"' -, '`"y, . . 2 U Q Doctor, In point of fact, you told them .after we attached and aftei - . ,, , L-' 'y .1 . v1,*-. r . ` -, y 22 '* we .gave you a copy of bur analysis of the lab1rsulta and of the medical 23 reports, that's when you toId the union, after we gave them a copy as well, 24 isn't that correct; sir?' 1 r ;L ` \ Vr** .>:v 1 , *>' ;W ; ^ \ 's \-i v *7'7 ' ' * I1 - " <1 " f -' 1 - 'A 1 I can't reate it7to, the^tlmlng of your analysis. Q . .Oh, Doctor, 'It. occurred, jfou told them sometime after the second 2*'V 4 *- i 1 ,(f f" ' * " f' * week,in June of 1985, didn't-you, sir? 3 -, . L i `J ' ~ * ** 7 - I don't know the. timing related to yours. 4 t K. , - Q My. question is, you old.them sometime after the second week of 5. June, 1985, didn't you, sir? 6. . ; 7 '"'VA 7. - - .8 Q I 'm. not sure of the week ,,when Suskiiid said that's the, final report. Doctor, It occurred after our recess, or during pur recess, didn't `It,-sir? ,- - . ' ; > V. . ,9 , -r 7' - 10" A . Or just`before our recess. r 11 12. Q '' Or just before, Doctor? _r . ; ' ?; , ;, i ' . ` 'i .1 V *7 .. ' ' :r 1 " ^ r. sVT-/*/ r. : . 'r i I ' j1 'r >t A- ; T e s ! ; i't- V >' '_} Q` Now, you're>changing. your.testimony.' - ' 13 > .k*"' V'\" 77 '77 /v"\ i*.. . .7 - J' 1 , 14, ' L7t 15 Q . It /occurred,`Doctor7and'*;I-'ve got a- copy of the plant bulletin. and I .Intend to introduce'it into evidence. It occurred after I served you "16 with* a copy of-our analysis of this September, 1980 health report, isn't . 17- - *8 ; that, correct, sir? ^t .J '/ "v. s v,- \ ' ; 19 / A I don't luiow. . 7, ,, r. : ,20 ' * Q You don't .know? bo you know that not to be correct, sir? 21 ,; 7 > A;/ - n o . ' : \ / 7 7.-., ,, ..7 " , .* >: V 7. ' - ' ' ; 7; -- ; 22' rli Q .Do you haye any, documentq, sir, any'copy of any documents where 'I _ 23 '; you are telling .the-workers of this result? - '24 Z ] -A No, sir,. . J i^ BA YO N N E, N .J' ' 7 00 2 L FORM tL 2 4 B - wAW * */ 46 1 ,Q . Then how did;you,tell them, sir? Because I am supposed to receive copies; of any documents dealing with dioxin, dealing with these r 2: health studies, how did you tell them? Did you call them all up on'the 3 telephone? 4 , >\ 1" A. No, sir. I 'm. not sure I,have told them. -V- ; 5* 6 *- Q Tou just got through saying a few moments ago that you did tell them. 7 8- 'A No,1 I"did not;- ' ', ; - 'V " , Q Doctor, 1'ask you, have they ever been told, and yoii said now 9 1 ; they.have been, told, once we. were told by Dr. Suskind that>lt was a final report we-,then told, them? . , sCJ% -M / -\ . li ' , * .12 / ' .. A& '}<N\o,''saii.r",:(1.*IT'* 1 i: ;.Wa said"they ncaannj'jItea iK(. *: - . * r .} ftaolI'jdI'aafptfearv, .tlhiaat.. ` -* . 'L * : .. - . (\ f.\r i" < 13 Q Is thatrwhat ujbeliv^you said, Doctor? v *;>' `- X ^ ' '- .- 14 15 , A; Yes, sir; \^ " , v i h i ' ? f *i * * f *' 1 " ' J ' / Q Annas a matter-ofsfact they.haven't yet been told, have they, sir? 16 - !?'' 1.8 . , A . I don't know;-. ./ ' ' j ^ *'^ * ' i^ t ^ . 'j .; '> ' Q Do.you have, any information'at all as to what they have been told? A No, sir.- *'1' ;\ X ^ 19 0X _ 20 ` Q' 'l - Doctqit, from 1980 untll.1985 you hail these results and they haven't - 'X * ' i' Y ' _ ^ , ^ ^ ^'4^'t ^ '} ' ' ' ,l ' ' 21 yet been told;Isn't''that correct, sir? . To your knowledge they have hot? "22; ` : , , ~A' ; They have-not." r- ^ ' 'r ' -J: 1 '-X 23 . J Q . v.Now, Doctor, havev yof u V1lo-oked'-- well, f-,irst of, a*ill, , le*t'sn look at C '- t T- - f , - - - 1- f 24 -- this report, sir. - .x ; BAYO N N E. N .J. ** ' sVf-iJ' ,1: .. 47 . j - `- T H E COURT:. Me. Carr,1before you get into, that,- is this a good 1 2, point for a short,.recess? 1' - J t "^ k * >L * <V ' tJ to 1 - ^ - " ,f ' , MR. CARR:,,Yes',- your Hongr.' [' 3 ' [, ' ^ , . THE COURT: Ladies 'and gentlemen, we will take a short break 4- at this time, and then resume testimony. I remind you that you are not 5 .6 ' to discuss this.matter among.yourselves or with anyone outside the panel. The Court is in a short recess., ,,, J J' - . ,. .. - 8. . ^ (At; this time Court .was. in recess.) 9 BY.MR. CARR: ; *.' ' ` ^ t/ 10., Q . Doctor, with' regard, to-the report, itself, which' was Eihibit 1500, -,Jt' ' yt*' -*1-i*-%;"-- . 'r\ r'j*!...f * s/ r-i .... u` 11\j> i ,` ^ _ ''' ' . - -, '> 11 the very first; page #df'it; says,it s a:.study of the health of the workers Vv ,/r . v;-'r -J 12 involved in the.production of<pentachlorophenoland other chlorinated phenols 13 does it not^-sir? ^ ^ .- 1 , <V ,, 14 - A Tes.siri-j-v'; * >" i ..y:.< S ... ... , 1 A" * ' .V 15 ' Q And on the-- inthe introduction page, it gives the- objective of , 16,, . the study in the very second sentence there on that page, itsays the IT . objective was to determine the .health status of employees of the W.G. Kruramrich 18 plant who have been exposed to'-chlorinated phenols and to identify those1 19 conditions which might be related to the work environment, v Do you see that, 20 sir?- / 21 ' - - ' A ' 'Yes, sir, , a L,. k / ; ( " 22 Q "And on the next page,'the page numbered two bf. this study, if .23 r says the scope and conduct of the survey, if talks'1about the questionnaire ' 24- and the medical history, It also talks about all the laboratory tests that BAYONNE. N.i.  a, * ' i* ' - - ` - ..j - ,,P , ' -.k.*- . .. .. V T.r^1 *'- '* i' ' .. . . -..- . . .j. ;' y , ,, .. . " ;; L-I ` . k p . * A, , "_ - * * ,,*, ",*y:*/I\*,' A-*,1 ;1 " '; A.. . V. i.. * :// ,, ^; i . ,- ' . " ' , ' 48 , '* 1 . " . lsi* ^ 4 , i jr L F * > ... 'i y are Included, blood, CA, T, BUN,, creatinine, BUN-creatinine ratio, uric add, ' * 2-; glucose, total-protein,*albumin, globulin, total bilirubin, transaminase "* , M- C m p \' - ' ?.. . ' 3,, SGO and SGP, alkaline phsphotase, LDH, cholesterol, iron, >magnesium, sodium, . ' " -4 potassium, chloride, G-glutmyltranspepsidase, triglycerides and lipoprotein 5 profiles, CBC and differential urinalysis and urinary coproporphyria, -6 v uroporphyrins, and creatinine, do you see that,, sir? , " ^ 7": r-';v A ..7Yes,tsir. \ - : '. ' 't : ' :'J -- ;' . 8. ; Q * Now, as -far. as the coproporphyrin is concerned, he-describes it as- 9;\ a . single void sample, and-says that it was not possible to interpret significance': of levels -outside {the''normal, range, .do you see'that, sir? n !- *Ai . , -A ^ ; A* -- i; f A ' V VX V 0 ; 3 \- 1 ' f * ?r r% S I4 mT * ,J ` r 'p-*'" * 'j} 'r K 1'i.1 \ i vv V -f^*- j A -^L- a1 ^*>r' ? . . -* 1- ' " ' ` i: " s -*' " ^0 1 . ; '' . 'C > C C i . / ' ; i f j ' jA ^ .j . 12 ' / . Q ' This *single %void{sample,,f 1th copro and uroporphyrins was exactly' 13 ; 14 the same 'porphyrins that he ordered in the Nitrontest that.h conducted some - v. . v ' U A V - , 1 four months before this, that Is. in June of *79, isn't .that correct, sir? - 1? ; r - ; A. Yesi ' sir. . r- / 'v ` ` '' * aO s o o 4 bJ 1 m :O , * 7 16 , .> Q And he. ordered, these sam porphyrins; he could have ordered a . 1 7 24-hour sample if;he wanted to, could h not, sir, in each of these instancs ,- 18 ... that is in Nitro and-in the ^umnrich plant,'couldn't it, sir? . 1 19 . '*' / A Yes^.sir.. ' * r ^ ^'' L20 - Q But he chose to order a .single sample rather than .the 4-hour * sample, didn't h, .sir? v; " v 22 -A , Yes, sir./ ^ (1 L ;-/ 1 . 23 S Q Now, "do you beiieve that .it 's arpossibility -that: he choSe to L> * " -- 1, .",,'l 'lA 24 ; order the single- sample rather "than the 24-hour smpl so that he could use r ENCAD C O .. BAYONNE. N.J r '. " ' `1, y1 , V .* I TV / v:- ,W \ ' ' >' , '> *. - ,+ t 49 v' '.> ^ ^ 'L. -,,1' LUvJ / ' ^ . r" '/ T' '^.. -4 1 ^ ^ 1 -t T `. 1 the results if le appeared to support a position that he or Monsanto wanted to take with regard 'to porphyrins f hut that If it did not support 2.' 3 * the end result, desired, that, he could then disregard it because he could 4 % say ,/well, it's not a .24-hour :sample if it comes out in a fashion that he " L. -r' ; - *T . - 1, '* ry - 'k ' ^ s\ did not like1the result of,'do ,you think that's ^possibility, Doctor?. 6:. A* 7 'A . .No, sir., *-4,* ; ^ Q . And Doctor, if that isn't-- he did as we went-through, he did put 8 _ ,the-porphyrin results in th second draft of Ills Nitro study, didn't he, 9 : sir? 10 ' J II n ".A ...Tea,.'.sir;.,-. >;. . .</,. "i. i'*si,;i*i. ,V( * S-'* '-tJ '-'C** , I;-,-. ^ ,- -\ - i> Q ' : And he didn't call it wrpng or void or anything of that sort, -? '->"/* f** ^ ''r. ' 12" did_he, sir; but;he eliminated thoseporphyrinresults in his final 13 published report, didn't he, sir? . 'vt ' * L.'`t k ` i-< r ? r'r ' f'- jj 'w -> ' .^ ' H , A- Yes, sir-. -- . *!. `."'J'. 1 `' - . 4- '15 Q And you know that in-this report he makes no mention of the' v 16 porphyrin results, does he', sir? ;, j 17 ` A -No,''sir, .,"4 " ; - r .. " ^ - / ' 1 ". 18 J ; Q Now,' Doctor,' why would he order .a porphyrin, urine1porphyrin test 19 on two occasions.and then disregard the results, not comment, on the results ". - , ' ' ' SN ' x i. ' j ' -L 20 < in the final, published report? , ' s . ;. 21 ,,A Because he hadn't looked.at the Nitro study-before he did this 22 one/- " _ .. : ': -"v, " ' -/V . 23 iJ> Q . Well, Doctor/.he,knew what he was doing. He's a good, competent Jr ~ Tl V 24- physician, isn't he, sir?- He knows the kind of-porphyrins^ needed for, if BAYONNE. N.J. 07002 FORM I t 24 9 A Jf 1 * -:r .l . >; ; j J- *i y V ^f >r , X'*'**^.*'UxV'v/-/ ,' .Jr V.1iVT.i: 1 :: ' \ :\ - . . i *t .-, W' f 5 o he wanted a 24-hour sample, he could have got a 24-hour sample, couldn't ] he, sir? He ordered the .tests'In both of these Instances, didn't he, sir? - 2 L". ~ ` * , ' - t ... A , Yea/'slr. "" '\;J * ' - :'r''r *\ [ '3 4 .: ,Q And he. got what he wanted; didn't he, sir?' A ..;What he asked for,'yes, sir. . 5 Q And he Ignored the results of what'he wanted and got each time, , ,-6 ; didn't he, Birtlf% ' -- .-* / '?'- , j.' '-Yes, sir.;/ ^ 8 4 ' .1 ^` ,i 1 -'-'v !\ *j 1 J - j -Q And we've demonstrated ip'the Nitro case'that there was 30 to 35 9 ' ? V' " :'j r* /> *$ . percenta*bno-rsmalst1f\o/r-,a;ll;.>t/h/e '-.> ..workers i ^ > Involved in ' the Nitro case, ' between . 10 V *-^V- o' +. >v,.v *-* -x---" nr 28.6, to * 30.vpercent ^ V ^iiVf abnormalq o iJ* ' 5 **, n t hte-1*tes:tVs*.that he ordered, -* didn't ,'^ he,., sir? ' ..... . iV-\ VV '.V. i ' r . f ^ ' V \\ . 12 ' >- A L Hoi s, i*r. **' ...... .y. * r _ ' P `^ -l - .v < * , ';. L> v .. \ * *' Q We ,,didn't rshow thaty[sir? y 1 , `;1 -- 13 ' '` 1 A. Nor, sir. r ', ~ ' ' . - ' 14- r \ i h - 'L -MR. CARR:. Your Honor, .rather than me cross examine to re-establlsl 15 v the point, would you direct the witness that he did testify that it was' 16 ' 28.6 abnormal porphyrins recorded by Dr. Susklnd on the so-called unexposed 17. group-and a 35 percentabnormality finding in the porphyrins for the exposed 18 - r .''l_ " ' ' j- ,J -''N group? . . 19 'r : / 'V - -. " ` MR.' HEINEMAN: Your Honor, may,I make' a point'oni-that? May I 20 object to `that? ' .: \ -, 21 ^ ` `` ^ r. . THE CODRT Go head. ' _ 22 : - _ MR. HEINEMAN :' Your Honor he _Just changed the question. The ,. 23 question he asked Dr. -Rousch' moment ago required'Dr. Rousch to admit that 24 Y t ^ `^ 1n ^ 1 rri t % " ' , - ^, 1/ ^ * t\ '^ J . ' ` r ` F w V^ J, BAYO N N E, N .J. 0 7 0 0 FORM IL 24 B - **'J**'...-.V?^Vv v---f p 3' `k' o ** ' ?,I aty? > / -Vv *'V- 51 ' ."/ ./ 'r > ,' }'* % ( '' - , \-, *. ,.!v ' r--,' ' - " *> . the porphyrins were abnormal.and that Dr. Rotisch has `always denied because . >1 " - v . they, weren't 24-hour urines. ,.! Now;he's asking; you to direct the witness that ^1 ` '* \ r .^^ iJ* ^ `^ `^ , ` he'did testify that that.is what was reported, and I objects to the misleading 3 nature of the two^separate questions as deliberately tryingto mislead the .4 ` 5..' ^ 6-r- witness. rJ t ' .- - .THE COURT: M rthink?that's .a distinction without-a difference. I think the witness had admitted! that they were^ noted in. the laboratory reports -1 "l as abnrmls,,,and I don11 .think anything that1a ^stated.in the questions to X * , a, r ,\ 7 f p ^ r" *- * '' ~ *' 1 ^ J" ' . , ^ rr-j V l l j \ ) `i ''y% '- ` ^ * ^* the witness and *the rquest^to' this Court are.contrary' either within each ' 9`" ^ T~. i t-; ^ 4 - # i_ f \ -f***vit u-'i' ^ k / , } ' y ' \ '* . i r ` ^ Jv ' ' >^ > , `v>- - other's contradictions or contrary to the point, that you've made. Your 9 '' " ?" , *9 ' ' ^x r ^ y ** *+ " j f f t ` .] ' ^ fJ*T ^ ( ^1 "f*1 . l' ' ^ i ( ,, O '* "* r, l 1 Jl t | i t ' ' '- " " .^ ^ " ' , L _d -A - objection its bvrruledV-;rDr:^RoiisCh', .you are so ordered to'assume those II facts. You may, continue, Mr. Carr. \ 12- ;; K ,, ^ ., 1 ' > r . A h4>at l V ,J w Vi / , ' ^-*( J C \ t *J -v'v' V ) k'UM i.iV i -*i'*x J' n *' ' v. ^ ^ ;BY MRv-CARR:-'^ '* \ . V *._ - - .. u * ' 1 .! 13* '14 " . ` Q.. 1. ! yNow, Doctor-- - 1 ' ' <.>,> ' - "*i . V.. * , .y t: , ^- 1 ' ^L. . ,' , .1 .- - V .'^ ' - v ,, vt * ' \ -`... *- ^. , "- *' j .^ ;A J I'm sorry,Jl am to. asaume what fact?',. I'm not sur wht I am 1 -is;. supposed to assume; . 16 L ` ,, !.' ` - ! `v ' - Q That theLporphyrins in. Nitro were reported to. be> abormai ih`the . 17' ; .j lv i 'a * - p \1 Case,of.28.6 of .those" so-called"unxposed workers.and v35 percent in the case 18 r1! r * , rt'*j **** > * _ , v*,r ,,j ( ,, _ * r-? * r , - i' k . * L 1 . pf those that were exposed. 19' 20 'll-assume* that. v k ^ 21 A -22,J " - ,THE COURT: Yes, you are ordered to assume that. V '/ .Yes,'sir. ^ -j . * 'V 1 L 1; v ! , i.v. V ^ ' y Q ./ And assume also as well that you so testified, Dr; Rotisch, in ;., ` 23 P r >/ ! , ' , ' P, _ <t | ) ^ t "A ? J **' ' ,, f '^ ' ' * j - . . ' 1 , 1 _* T your.earlier testimony, or also 1 understand the Court, atcleast what X*ye' -'24 ,, _ *i t* i- c - ` \ PENCAD C O . / BAYONNE., N.`j: f AJ " f *' . , < % .v "52 . i" h* I asked for was that you assume* that.you' also testified to.that effect; 2' v. A, Yes, sir; ^ .*A ' r :'L '-. `V - ',-\ 3 ' Q -Now, Dr. Rousch, Dr. Susklnd obviously knew as well that these '> "a *'/ \ J , ` 'i41 4] were reported'as abnormal, did'he not, In the Nitro case? 5 A' rAnd I am assuming" that they were reported as abnormal". 6 ,-Q And assume that you-testified that they were reported by the * , 7` laboratory to "be abnormal, ..; / ,'' ' r',,j ', . .8 ;9 v . A 'And now the question?" ` , " s'.i -,-ir`*V ij. ^ w`$ ii tjjf ,.>^ *t, `, ,.. ,*-i Q f Dr. Susklnd; knew, that -as wellY'.did. he not, sir? - _ i} L"..IV Y ` `v,"--'1' -v-' . .- id'; /A n r' Q . t don't kfcnuoyw.;-^- ^ :'P 1 ` t t>,: \ H,*.J\ \\,'/ .3 -' Dr. Rousch,he^ reported'it^ aa abnormal In .his second draft, did ~ '12 ' he not, sir;Cwi,1t1hI,reg:ajrid ' tou'1`Hthies,e5p.>orp.h'yrins, isn't1 that ;t , the very , * ,' table ^ 13 . that we work with, a table that he created,'he reported, you do know, don't 14 you, sir? ' . . \ ,''1' t ^ ,is. A. - Yes* sir, yes, sir, that/second draft, yes. 16 ' Q . Why did you tell'me you'didn't lcnow it? We spent/an hour or/so. t. 17 on it. \ -s ` 1 - 18 A Because the final report.didn't have it.in-- / - J' .19 -Q Well; Doctorj that doesn/t take away from his knowledge, does it? 2 If he has the knowledge1once, he had it at .the time he prepared the final, .21 draft, didn't he, sir?.. 22 ' ` r- ^ 1 A;1 j I don't know. * \' . ' .1 . ' ' C_S. `_ . / . "h'- 23/ I Q You don't know'that, *sirt * v < > V '* _ " r ' ' ,24 ,, *A No, "sir. - ' , '* r` ^4 ' ' * PCNGftD C O ., B A YO N N E, N .J. 0 70 02 FORM IL Z* B t `-O ..i . i, 5'A-3 < 'i Q You worked with DrV Suskind,' you were'with him at the University } l; r of Cincinnati-.- -*;/ `.t. 72-'; v ' ,' V v V' : j**- ,A No,- s i r , > * ._ r.' V _ * . * ./ / .V * Q > Well,, he was there and you worked ..with,him ever since you have ' .4 ' s`` ' . . i''" ...L ' , i1 <'/' lW' i been at Monsanto at least, you.communicated with him, you have a high regard V : "* ''*J . ; '` ' s. . V ; ^ `. ' .r ' ;r ' ) for his medical competence** don't you, sir? > r . -- > ' 6\ ' 1 . i ^ *'* A,- -;Yes, sir,/ v ^. , ': Q ' If he knew .somethingin regard, to those.tests he"wouldn't be likeljy .8 ,. - - -V' } `<;,r 4 i; /' s/TJ,; f -u ,J. \ . ' - . / *,* to not know it sWheh he;tprepared.-the next;"draft , would he,.sir? \9"V ' 1 |V ;A.- .1/don*t know, ^ ;10 ' ,`V J i . ''i-TV *V. v:> : i'*>; i1-'., ' ' ' ' , ! -S',. , 11. '/ ;Q j You think he just'simply^forgot that he had. found these, to be 12 s 13 ( as bn^orma4l? ' rV < !5~ x-*f * >. ^ v ' ^^ r 1 ' J " i A 1 4 ' 114 "j ' . r , - l' ' ^ ' 1 - ' " J t'- *- 'lL : " ` r y *rr f : A . I don't know why he changed-- - V1 " r. ^ - t\ / ' ' ,. ,. T . *. r rT Q * We11,''.I 'm asking you what you think, sir. Do you think he just 14 'forgot it? is: : . '/-J./r; , ' ' /" 16 t A No,' sir, -v.`^ '/' `j;- . T V-;J. 1 .. Q He deliberately ignored^it, didn't he, sir? t }7-\ 1 . , L. ' ` ^ . A NoY vslr , is1,- -. v . ' ** ' * IL-, L > p ' p^ rpj <v> '`V ; '' . ' `` \ *.p5 ,p ' - .* ' *'^ ; Q ' , It'was an accidental ignoring of it?s , ' . . 19*' " . . 1 ,,1* , >' /n ^ 20 \c / ``A > LNo;1 sir,..:\ '* .* ^ ` ., * - v . -v* r^ ^ 21 >vr ,Q` He ignored it, didn^t he, sir? ; ^ . .J; 22 .* \ A *. No", sir^. * ' ` v,`^" -.;`v" V , ^ 23 - v 24 Q . ; He didn't ignore, it in his final draft? , .; ' k -- He left it out. - v ', ~ ' 4\ . , ' ' PEN GAD CO.7 BAYONNE,, N:J, i ' J \ v:i'V f "v-"';" vt'i|ry' 'll' *** 'V A V - "'/A-vi v;:p A K*V...V I . ' Q .And didn't h e s G y . t h a t h e couldn't place any significance on them? -,2- - A ^es, -Gir; V ^ - V. 'A A ' , -A .. 3 V LQ' And then he.deliberately,ignored those results,tdidn't he, sir? "^ '' ,. ^ ^ \ A ' L`" ^ "'V- _ . 4 'A A A ' ' ''Yes.'. \ / A/.'A* '5,'t * Q , Now, Doctor-, If he wanted additionaltestS'done or if Monsanto : 6 - had wanted,additional tests done In the case of Nitro or. in the case of . . ' '7 ? Krummrich, those additional^ tests could have been ordered,rcould they not, ' a ,? ' nJ; |>,0' . M ,-l vTy.* c.v >V : , r ra \ - >''<* ,i"- h.5`t. ' ' ,, ^ r * -, .v, > * *L- C , . A ? -A* }sA > K A v a a A A A';\ . 'V-. l 9. : V .`A"' Yes, sir.,= _ _ V'A ~ V l* A '.-A- . "-' 10A - ' Q ^ y.,."- ^ 1% '.s..ii tr-' . < -~* , ^i' '* i ' `i .'*'v V* llf i ! ?< 1 v.'"i--'^ . f ''-. , ` '' ,J . But no* additional'teets^re'ordered, were there,; sir? '` 1 v/ ii> >2.; *x.. , * -, r - , t - ... - . ' '- * : 1 . ,. - -f ir ,k ...;.A * No-l,'i,s-1-1ifr({.ij/ii>.4.'7-ii'V1, L;Vv1f^a1 ,Tc--i;-ij <V' , ... .- l -, j. .* .V1;^- ,` r 5. ' ' , .. '/ Q As a matter of fact,so it would follow that Dr. Suskind, neither' 13 ' Dr. Suskind. nor. Monsanto wanted 24-hour urine samples from these workers . 14 ' ior porphyrin "analysis, isn't that correct, s"ir? > , 15 A - ; ^ A No, sir.1 r. n ^ `` ' v' 1 16 A - Q l } Doctor,vif Suskind"wanted the ,24-hout samples, h could have ordered ,17" ,18 19 ; those, could he not, air? ; , u r. " ' '} V 1 ',fc V*---SA'-"'''* 11 Aj' > ', r A J :;Yes,/sir; ' .;' - tV ' *- '"'-A. A-,,-. 1 v^A- ` ( . ' Q ^ Ha dii not order tlim, 'did he,., sir? ;Lt .J ,,/ `> 20 - L.A No, air. v % - ' A A - - A A . ' '' ' A" '`21 \ Q ; Thereforej' he did not want them, did h, sir? / . ^ 2.2;,, ,A 1 don't know. ^j /- -; , `r - '* A ^; p. ' , ,, Q Doctor, could he have ordered them if he had wanted them? ' , ( ^ j* r j" \f , - f1- t . . * ' -1 ,.T f t_ i *' r * t : T" '24' ' AA" Yes,'sir., '1 = . A , \ '% ^ FO RM 1L . 2 4 8 ("ENCAD C O ., B A YO N N E. ' N .J . 0 70 02  *' it,' /Vt',r*i ; - q ; Could,Monsantohave ordered them if they wanted them? i- c ^ :;v V /;A ,No, 'sir*-/v. ` .''V ;/ r' " \ ` . '^ m *Y'< '"l1 r, / ' , ^- -f '*vr- * ; ? Q Monsantocould not?; : J. 3 1 \ V -- 1- L }-4' "k A * No;, ^r / sir.'"'', \(41 ' L' \f v - 11k *t, T' ' ' ; r 7, ; --vi '* i h* \ ^ , i ' 'C nJ 5/ ; q :; Doctor, .weren't*you working with" Dr<\Suskind and didn't you have .v l. ; ` 'L . . >,'i/<',i . v `. ommunications .with Dr* Suskindin wtiich he asked "you whether; or not you ^ ;6: lad ordered 'additional tests,; and you answered to himthat you didn't think --s" v .7 _; rl 1 -V '/ / '<* 8- additiohal tests were;needed? /`>\ *-,'' ;^ M V *--jr' * * ^ :,r, ` '- -- ' Jf ^ : -; />?< .``-10- No, sir, ij\ v 'i ^ >t ' i9 1-.. . , -- - "*-v v. - - - ^ ... ? Ai(Pl1ainti'i/f-f^'-s''Ei"Pxvh,ib.it 1502' was ,m'a4r,"k.*e,d for , *i'd-e**;nitification.) l-\j.? 1 \ 11 . . Q ;? I ' hand -1 V you-what T ? .y;-r hasf befen ;v V f'^ marked1,Plaintiff Vs Exhibit.1502 ~ .r. ;:L`` and , ' J k; ...X 12;jv ask you if you recognize,thatas' a letter from- Dr. Suskindbr. Suskind's I3? wife, Ida 'Suskind? -/* r>f`;.v ,, ^ 'V 14 ; A- . Yes,; sir..\ ,, 1 .v*'. 4 s?' _\ :,, - - , 1' >\ m ' *'i w*Ok f. " MoO * lO T z. '-lZo2l'J'' *^ ^ 15 .<: JiR. CAEE.: I offer 1502 into evidence if,-it please the Court* .16 >*L TV (Plaintiff's .Exhibit 1502 was offered into evidence.) ^ .v' *17 '1k' ,* 3' THE COjJRT: Any objections?. ; V'-/` S' : 18 ', MR. HElNEMAN: Yout Honor, there is no'testimony', that this'witness ^ 19- has ever. 3een this document before, and it's not by him nor is it to him, : - ou 2w<1.$-^* ' 20 and therefore no foundation;has .been laid1for, its admission and object to 21' it. -It's 'hearsay. 'f %. -?>> * 22' v: THE COURT: ^ Objection is^overruled. ; ' It is. admitted-over objection. f' ' ? 23 ' . r l . .(Plaintiff's E^hibit 1502 is admitted into evidence.) `_M V L . 24 V ` Q Dodtor, this libit that you are.now looking at,-I think it's L' ' " . - -- . -L - - ` .. `( ` 'S* / ^ r,,k.'' *.. . :O - / ;> '. K.^# r *+V"* r7lL`- 't? * .v ^ - V-77,' ? ` \ .. '*' /'a/*"-' .-A 7^ . 7?>77 .,( ,'**' r . i.7 V .56 >2,1 1502,' it is a letter addressed to Paul Heisler of the medical department, ^' - w ** r ili^ ' n * ^ ; L ^ .V ^ 1^ - 1 - ,, fc * ^ 7is'it not, '7 sir? -7> . \ V-, - *V -V .' 7 -7 `7.71 .* -. 7 '7 ,. 7 ' `'7 7 , V-' A L He's hot medical department. _ , 7- r^ . * 7 :7 4' ,Q .He's, described as being.in the,medical department at least in. `5 this-letter, is henot, .sir?'17 ."7' .. . ~v . . ; ^ . '6 ' r7>t:7, t:i H;Y es,/eir.. ,7-;7 .: v;' 7 / 7 ..-7 . 7 ;, .7 7 7 J"*:7 * 7 'r7 7 "-', '. ' 7 Q y Who-ia Paul/Heis1er?/ - .7 7 7 7 > : v ^ 7 ' * 7 - 7 7 / 5 7 > i { t -H*. H ; v. / ' , - 7 7 ^ / 8 '' .v . A X , He>wae in- charge of-environment and; safety, as well tas .medical'. ' 9 ; -They repoftedlto him. ' :7./; -r *- ^ ^He ..A is not'1a 'medical man, ; TV^i- )'?^J- ai-w>-A^'-'j7-,. he Just has-that man ^ _ '- *-. io;: -reporting to-him.* * .,7 *7-7/ ',f,c;> , *'; ,J'. 1. 1vr-.. nv !( rV ^ j"i,i-'i1 ?^i^ *^ ^r 7 ^ /""f 11 '1'f a * >1 , Q- ,W h a t i s 5your department/reporting tb him, ,. "J- tah-en?-'C..-1->7( , > . ., b 12 .13 7 -A - 'No, Dr. Oaland, the'physician at-Krunrinrich, reportedi to him, < ' . . "7 "7 7, ' *' " v. ., ^ .7 ' ;/ Q -Dr. Osland is. within tne department of the-- the medical department, 14 isn't he, sir? ah - - >*' - L?A. "-y '.- ..' , *L* ^ l* p - ; l /" .Vy-t a ^ L- v ,, '/^^ . 1 m l. V1^'M"*r J 15 .7*7 J -a .. A . Yes,Vsir, but he reported to Mr; Heisler. . - 7 / v r ' * , / / < v ; ' . ' 7 r .r / - 7" 16 7 . Q He reported tb Heisler.-and not to you?. .. * . /. v 17 ' ,,/ r- "A That's right.. i 7 '7 7 :.-.V '. 1 X 7 ..' : ^ r: 18- '. - , Q - And then Heisler reported to you? 19- 7 '' A J No, sir..' - .7 '- '7: *. ; _- 7 - ^ 7 , , '' *- 20 ;q : You've got ah employee, that's in your department that" doesn't ; 21 report to. you, but does report to Heisler? ' 7 . ^77 22 A He. isn't in ray department, Dr. Osland is not in my .department. '. * . ` . ^ 'V r`^ rr.- 7 ' ,^ ` ' 7` 23 - Q ; 'X thought he said he was in the medical department .. 7 24' A 7 He is the. medical ^department at that plant., , , . ^ BAYONNE. N.J. 0 7 0 0 2 rf p> - t7 ',`V"* i*i ,,> r,, 1 " Q 7 Doctor, do you not *are you not invcharge of 'the entire department v"' - / (T- ` . "' ^ \' \ , -. /'" - ;\ . - of'medicine ^aiid- environmental health for the Monsanto" Company? Are you not f ' "7 V." - ' r'> ` over-all; of these,-every plant 's medical department? a ;^:/HoV.,sir.V;: " ` \ ` ... ,. Q ' ' You are not in charge pf .thm? J'-'/- ; L L/'S A; Mo,.-sir; ' v, . 1 l'7 / " ' - / : : . 7 \ P :;. 'Iithought you testified'here' that you were in charge of the L i '7 *1 . ' ' s ' . i 4 1 Sf r * \ ' J { r V : j , . 1 -v ' '{'\'VL7 7 c\ '77 i/ * ~''--,';j? ,,^' - . ,.' entire medicaldepaftmeht at Monsanto. ' `7 ^ -7\ ,' ' t" . . ,A 1 V ?> Fiy. V ?; ;As -defined b(our`department.^, 1 .' ^ 1' \ (; \ V .'-V? !i. .''v. fy'v v'-:r \ , v v . ' ,j Q And Doctor, the medical departments in the individual plant ,is not part tof'th medical.department of Monsanto? . ' '`A* . No,'sir., 1 , J " '' 1 , ` And you have no jurisdiction over those persons? rJ,`` ^ ,J; A ; Not direct .supervision. .^ ;L ' 'J '.'y*- * v Q v I said jurisdiction,1 nbt^supervision,. Doctor. ^ ;r'"-.-, ,- '. y `A I Tm not sure what the difference Is. 'v > Q . /Doctor, Paul Heis1er worked with you and your department for this Krummrich healthNstudy, isn't that right, sir? X , / s'._ ; `--;h tA/-' 'Yes, ,sitl < '\ a '.?//" ^ , Q .Toutdepartment worked with Hisler, Helsler worked with you? - A ; Yes,'..sir; -/ ' -'/`'t.. ;v*\v [f\. y- / .v v ;J Q 'f And Doctor,- this letter was sent to Mr. Heisler, :itfs parti of / Monsanto's files, were you aware^of its existence, sir? .. ` /, - ; , - . A . -No,' sir.' -"r/ `-' f" "'"`.'vV ` ; v > * V * S ' <.y>" '"M- ;>8 . Q Do you see the last paragraph on the first page where it says 1 Hr. Belcher of Metpath laboratories indicated copies of the. results of 2\ "" 1_ 1 ' - r L' " J 1' the clinical biochemical test were sent to the medical department of the 3 Saiiget plant at the same.time'we-received our copies, do you see that, sir? 4\' 5 ., ' A Yes,rsir.. \ y,` ^ /V, \ y' ^ - y . 1 J* y * ' M. Sr ' '' :Q - And then it goes on-to .ask what follow-ups,, if any, were done on ' 6 " additional tests were . sir? ' ' \ -8 * '? .Yes*-airi* .rV*. J \ y ``r,* . - , J} ? tr /V. ~<i, -v *, 7 V! 7 - `^ .y ` ' y y" .{ Q ' And that indicates, does,it not, sir; that Monsanto's medical 10 n\ 12:.- department could; have 'ordered^dditional laboratory tests-if additional -- . .r r~ laboratory tests were thought*, to be needed? y 'J ( ` >- ' 1 _ A ,, rYes,-ir.' - 1'.; 1, ` J ' . y. y --J . - -- . * 13' nd&'yoknow that; no additional' laboratory tests were ordered? J :. Q . ' v "` r ' ' *-, * * ,, 14 ' , I-'don't know.' -y '.'* *: `y 15: ^ (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1503 was1marked for identification.) 16' y 1 Q hand you Exhibit 1503. v Do you recognize that as a letter 17 from Heisler to Mrs1. Ida: Sskind at the University of Cincinnati? ' 18 ' A :Yesy'-sir. *5y ' >-/,, ; * .\'y\ `V; * t,L`4L 19 MR* CARR1: 'I offer that exhibit' into evidence if it plseJth 20 Court.1' ' 'y'. :'-V : v*1' r " ' ' "* : 21 .'`.-'(Plaintiff's'Exhibit 1503,was offered into evidence.) .i , 22 MR. ,`HENEMAN: `Yor Honor, again X object'on the basis,. ,-'ttiat ^ 23 it's hearsay, B, `that he hasn't" established that this witness has ever deen.,, 24 P n GJLD CO** BAVONNE, N ;J t 0 7 0 0 2 FOBH IL 2 4 B ;> * ^ < <> 1 - * - V i' -v.'S 1 : ri i. -59 'r 1 .twit's not addressed to him^ tie didn't get a copy of It, and he didn't 2' write it, and object to it...that there is a total lack of foundation for' , '3. ; its admission. - - , \\V. r:` . * r1 k L i^ s' 4 THE COURT:. 'Objection is,,.overruled. - It's admitted over objection. ,5:' ' rf .(Plaintiff's Exhibit ,1503 was ,,admitted' into evidence.)' 6 . Q Doctor,..you see that, this exhibit as,all other Monsanto documents .i\l yj -Jy * 'U i"-'f? \\ >r V > * ^ ' ' - , 7 - _ ttiat veihave^been .'referring Xo bears' the Monsanto identification'number 8 'C13040 and^so*oh,.xyouJsea that?;/; f; \\i-. ' -.V V.* ` W- 9 ' A Yes, sir. `" ^ ` - .. ; V- ' 10 ,* , Q * f Ji j ' 'V i i `| v i 13 ' >1 ,- T> And.it's, also a'letterhead* of Monsanto? ^ > ' ' -! . 11 v ' A. Yes, sir,; ^y V "- ' 12^ ; 1 q And you recognize-Paul E Heisler as'being a Monsanto employee In 13: tiie medical department? ,` L ` ' . ", ^ 14 !y ': -A' ,,'Yes, sir,J'> - '; "v '.. V ` " .15 , 16 Q - Now, Doctor, the very last paragraph on the.last page of this 'i 1 ?- -' * ,* -* ' document is what I'd like to Sirect your attention to. -The:follow-ups 17 that ,,were done were with only three people, isn't that correct, sir? '18;* j V _ A 19 Q Yes,' sirI ' ,,1 ' V ' *. " u Do' you know whether or not-- and there were no other additional' 20 testing done except for those three?. L .,21 ` A' I don't know. . ... . - ' 22" 23 'Q- Well, do you know .of any,,additional testing that was done other' L' ",^ i -V'^'*">'[ ,'1 / ^'*;V thanJthese three people? 1 ` 1 ' !* '' 24 : -A; No, siri v ` - .r '. * -' PENGAD C O ,. BA YO N N E; N .J. 0 70 02 fO SM . IL 2 B 1 Q And is there any-- this report of Dr. Suskind1s is dated September 2 of 1980, September 29th, 1980, is it not, sir? 3 A This letter from Suskind? 4 Q The report of Dr. Suskind, Exhibit 1500 is dated September 29th, 5 1980, is it not, sir? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q Two months after the July 21st, 1980 date on Exhibit 1503, isn't 8 that correct, sir? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q So the report of Dr. Suskind's was written after he learned the 11 additional laboratory tests that were done on those three people, was it not, 12 sir? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q And at that time he could have ordered, if he had wanted them, 15 additional porphyrin urinalysis tests, could he not, sir? 16 A Dr. Suskind? 17 Q Yes. 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q But he did not, to your knowledge, did he, sir? 20 A Do, sir. 21 Q And Doctor, have you looked at the porphyrin results from your 22 Krunsnrich people? Do you know how many people at Krummrich had reported 23 abnormal porphyrins by the Metpath laboratory? 24 A No, sir. .' You;havelookedatthetable that we've prepared and that I am '-Y , v r'*" ' X ' _ / ` ,,, ' -i A ' rJ LL - r ' "I going toshow you "again shortly; you have seen that', ;haveyou not,.sir? . - A' "V -`Yes^sir. . Y ; . *,,/ \ V ; Y^ ,3 Y ' 7'X Y '/- ,r ;' '`' r\ir' .v/; r. Y , 'J.;-\ ' -'-' ^ r' :. Y 1~.v q ;_}sir? .4.---r ' y ' -,' Vy/ / Y /" '0 A- - Yes,/sir, - ' \ . ,'i/r.Y 'Y- 's' y y ; v v`. Y ; W 6 k r *j l Q.. Andthat indicated abnormal porphyrins, didn't it, sir? ` Y'- , / . h- Y. . ` %'* ' ,, V >; ' ' Y ` '"A .,JYour,- report didy* yes,.v Y, iY "v -( ' >*/! ' . C . . x Y ./ Y * ' - r -'-'X -, ' / ' ; J < = ,Q -.Did you check the report/that. I gave you against "the laboratory - 8,r v* r 1 * - ***'* ,4'i 'v' :Mh \ % . -f - pJt - ' / * -- ' ^ V - .H - \ V V r* . ~ . ' W!i ' 'results, shown In. these documents-that's'right in front of you? : 9 v 'j ? \ 4 '1 V ^ " - V'k 10 Y -./l \.rk' > Yes^.sir."; ;r' -, r* '*, ' /1 ii-Y Q :;'..x'--yAv 12 . r c Did you check the other res\jlt3, sir? What^other-- .. ` .. J^ rv .r y ` - //*, t 'V ' ,, " -: ''\y ^ v ; ,r k-r' L;,.Q- r Other laboratory reeuits .in .that study' in that analysis/that I :' . .13 ` <;/ / j ',j . ^ , y , >r" ,1 ;i 4 .gave .you in J\me. r- i Y j. frc *"r * . ' ^* * r i ' V -* . , 4 * r ;r' h " T* ; . ` '/ /' -' . ''; ^ ., t^ H -, 1 , 1 t 4 ` " ^' ^* p ^ ". ,.i 4. r 'r . F\ , J - f ,r' '1 4* " I ' ^^ '- , 1 -;J A `It!s ',very difficult;' see,' I ,dld all of that very well; but l 15''-V ' ^f'- t , v->//v ' '%-" "'J 7 -v .Yx went through.all,that,-yep.' .-`Y'V `J '-J`r;" 16Y ; x. .V '-' .'-v . . ;Y Y \ . ' v.'^ ;.// ^ / Q . 'Nowj Doctor, this report pmks reference to aH\ the ninriber of ,17 /' 'tests that were faken." Would you please ,point out in this, report-th place .18. ' ' ^-' ' -' .'Li- ;>*< /i'VfAt 'S'/' ; " . : ..-v; /- where these' lab results are fepbrted other than the -lipids? (`x - f,- ' 19 'Y' / .* bI .v ^.Y/ `-Y. ' " ,Y '-> .; -Y ,'v '-YY * - i-1 - ^ , 1-' '--Y " ' 1 V s Y' * x* ,V ,*;'* b-lii ''Y. ' ' L' - -'Y'. "J 20 . : 1x Y " " ,, MR'. ' HEINEMAN: .-ti* " W/vh'-iit"/l'ra*boraVtotr,y":,rie*sul1tirs"`? ,1 "; objectyour ' ' '/ Honor, I J - : -"< t - ^p.V1 ^ J V r* ^y, ' > *;>X* ' - ** ^IV( I . * 21 Y think it's,vague. v' Y , ,.t ;Y/ '' . . "Y Y v- ^ ; Y ';-:'/// Y .. ' ' Y ` / J~ Y ': 22 *: Y 'Y Q Laboratory data ""referred jto/in this report, thesclinieal. r ` ` Y-". J- ' . .. . . Y , ' Y r '-r, ` ' YY Y>:'' ' ,- ; Y ' > *'Y ' > '> r rj / ../ y `. Y ''Y . 23 y /laboratory tests that were'taken, shown/onOPage .2 on Exhibit 1500.. Y / Y; 4-.. . No Y sir,. ' ; ; Y'r'C\: ``` ' V - v ry 62 1 . f- - p - %* 2. v //; . A Sir? - ; ; / ; ; .. " / .v k ' ^ . - Only, lipids'. / - r' i / . , J' .. /' y >y/ Q. And Doctor' there are something like 22 tables referred,to in 4 / this report; dp you see that/sir?/ Actually;it lists 23, but there is - -''r. V ''- ' 5 Table 13 missing, so there is in fact only 22. tables, do you see that,, sir? 6' 'A -.Yes, sir.' - `r-' - 't .. "Jl' Q . Do any of those tablesJdeal ^ t h any. symptom, any,disability,' any `8"-1 abnormality or/any'finding that could relate 'to dioxin poisoning other than 9; chloracne? * /; v . '/ ,O/- - \ -` / ; / - 10 ; /v A Would you repeat that question? ' / - ; 1. <, / , *"' : / - 11 ,,J p Is thereany table in this document.that deals with, anything ; /'-_/.. ' s's . < --/ V-' ; ^ " /. ' V(. v " ; _ - / " ' 12 other than chloracne except.Table 14, which deals with other .skin conditions' y,': .13. ,A. And the lipids. / ' ', :/ > r //,-` ; .. . ; 14/' ^ .' Q ' -Even the lipid tables,vDoctor, relate only to chloracne* They . 15r ; don't relate to another single thing, another'single disorder, only chloracne. 16 / ' A ` /Yes,, sir.' r1 >i. J - - . ^ -i*'- - /-`V j,- ;. fV ' -, ' . i .f - . , ', *j' ,1 .1 s 17 . Q So the only things Doctor,. there are 22 tables, two of them deal i" ' - - ^ *U *fi L* .y `-N . * - ,y l'C V / - 18 with the type of "person, the stats of the person studied, /one table deals. * ? 19 with other skin disorders,>and/aH the\other tab]les .deal only with chloracne, ... - > ; nj 20,s isn't that correct, sir? Z ^ r> T . .^ / *' * ,'ir` '> -r v' t ''s'? r . . 21 , i A^ Well, andJlipids andichloracne.^ "i.S -' ' ' 22 ' Q , But lipids only with regard to chloracne. * - .. 23 . `J : A Yes,/sir. , , - , !- ' . l .../' / / :24 ' Q , There Is not a-- the report,, though, is described ^as'the'objective BAYONNE, N,J. 63 ,1 vas to determine th health status, ri `i'j Isn't that ** what it 1 s2aid on the very . ' 3/ `4.. .first page of the text?' - . - ' A.. Yes, sir. . *1 ^^ QAnd what It * ' . ^ - ' > r L -? J ^ ^ i', M J s "1- reported .on,,however,,'was ;nt the health status of these people,'but their chlracne status with regard to, well, just chloracne 5~ 6 v> that*s ail it talks about Is. chloracne, doesn't it, sir? ^ ''v ,A . And. lipids *. a - V J T` j t'*'' r k., ' .v;,,V. ' : \ .8,'\ t - Q Weir,- lipids only with regard;' not' to. thelr:health, but only withragard to chloracne. 9; - A 10 a Q 1,1 ./i , T e a , `Sir.'' - * \ ,/ - ] The relationship between^lipids.and chloracne, not ,In regard to -,y* ' * ` i'; - V t- 12 reltlonshlp of their health, heart-disease,, cardiovascular disorders/ myelin destruction,In the nerves,Vliver',damage, psychiatric disorders, 13 neurobehavior disorders, 'sleep difficulty, fatigue problems;/they're not 14 ; -t- " ,, ' ,- f ,, . c 15 dealt :with here, are * r i yf. a ^ ; they, , sir? - r, r - k ,h , V '' _ - > * 16 , , A No, sir. ji ' i.7'X`,,V ,*/ '<* /'y '' - r. ,.r * ,h 'Qn -, ' jTThk'ea on-tnillyn lftkh'ilnnng ,, thhWaatf'*so, di'f*leaaal.l^\tr.5''rw/-.7r.il-`-ft,.kh5'AInn .* ftlhiii-`asic' ' 4Ias achkllrra,cRn,,nea, *i4sa,nn'*tf ' -V tfkhaatt*.V- 7. , ~A 18 correct, sir? ...i . ' v- ... ' - . ' .\'i ` i 'V *' *\ .* ,ik -. }< ,,;.?1. ',,lY if''-. ^-.C ' . ; 19 ' - A Yes, sir. ' , . ' . J k `'ri` V f'-l V,'^: VY. v/'f/.v '>" - - ^ 20 Q Do you see^ any- results, 'there is a 'rlong list of laboratory tests 21 that were, given, rdescribed on .the page numbered^ 2 'that I read off, long 22 list of laboratory tests .that were conducted./ Do you see. the results of 23 axiy laboratory, tests other than the lipids and the glutamyltranspepsldase, >* ' 24 that Is, GGT, as It relates'to chloracne? FORM 'il A B PENGAD C O .. BA YO N N E. ' N .j. 070 02 1 A That is a liver^profile with SGOT and SGPT where there was no difference between chlqracne and ,,acne. 2 Q They're talking about chloracne, they are not talking 3 aboiit anything other than acne. 4 A Yes, sir.- , c ....... 5 6 Q Doctor, the question was .asked are t h e -- -in the October the 2nd, question number .3, why are blood and urine samples r 8 included when t h e y 1ve never, -been before -in ,,the Exhibit .1498, and the answer .there. Dr. Suskind has included these tests to verify 9 10 that there are no ill effects other than chloracne,. do you remem 11 that statement? 12 A Yes, sir. ^, 13 Q Where in this report is there a verification that ther 14 are, or any statement at all as to what effects, ill or otherwis >r J f ?'1 'l * ' IS effects other than chlorcne?. Could you ..find that, statement ^ s. - 16 where it talks about a verification that there re ,,no ill effect '\ * * < 17 other than chloracn in that report, sir? . 18 A I .don't think there JLs one. t ^ i* ] 1 * L, '1 i i 19 Q And Doctor, why did ,,you tell these people that the 20 purpose of these tests were ,for Suskind to verify that there 21 re no ill effects other than chloracne? Why did you say that 22 to these people? . ." 23 A T h a t 's what Dr. Suskind thought he was doing. Q Well, he is the one that jwrote that report, isn't he> 65 sir?-' / V . ' `' `''; . ^ A. ' Yes/i'sir. .J", r ', ` V'.1 ^ 't ' * t" ' '1 '*`lr,r *S' \ -' * 1, ; .: Q Does he say i n t h e r a t h a t he Vs* talking, .about ill effee ts other,than chloracne? Where .does he .say it, .on what .page does h "say it? ; On what' line? ,v; _ '` ,c/ - \* ... . . ,A . It 's not in^ any oneJ-ine*;. L Q W e l l / w h a t p a r a g r a p h ? What page?, '.L. ' . v rA - ` , The' fact that hedid, all<.thosethingson Page 2 _is k -V , .' ` t ` y, J k' " + f r l 1 cy . "* * j'* what lie w a s .looking at to see .if ,there w a s ,,anything .that would, happen in people who have chloracne , o r n o t . v. -V : Q ; Where did he report on;the -.ill effects Vs-shown by the 'laboratory tests/ sir?. What .page. of the. document,,does he report on these test's? What table xefers t o these tests .other than the GGDT arid the lipids? ,,*Lv-i J;: . ;> ^ - - ' , ',* ' J /,*;iT ` {' . Is \ f .1 U'if> C'; *'- ' . : - : ...A ..; And .theSGOT and, thq..SGPE. . ...: V,. . - " .. - v ', '!r 'j'". vf "t"'; '-_s. -; \ Q ;' Only there',with ;regaid to .the;,Jlipids-with; regardJ't o ; chloracne. .. It d o e s n11 say whether or not .that1 ^somebody is ill. ^ *' ^.- r ^ ^*t j;-j < i - f j- l ^ rjJr * Yt* *TJV- ^" ' " * ; , k 'r ^ because of it, or1 how they* are1V s ;far as their health is concerned because of .that. This talks ..about only how it ,,relates to chloracne rA . ;. Q . Yes,sir; .'-A * 1 ,j1* S h o w m e where in this document ;he talks about,health, sir. 1 .A ` 7 ;k> (.. ' Bis own statement'ia to determine health status of ; 'employees.. : -r 'v '- 1 Q That's what he said iie was going to do. Now, he said 2. the purpose of the health study is to determine their health y 3 status. Now, I want you to .tell me where in this, report did he 4 report on the health status .of these employees? ,,Where is it in 5 here, sir, because I've looked and .XVve looked and I've looked 6 and I cannot see, and I want you to point out to me the single 7 place where, he reported on t h e whole objective of this s t u d y . ; j8 A This whole document^responds to that question. 9 Q Doctor, my question ,s not what he thinks. . He said 10 the purpose of it was to determine the health .status of those 11 employees who h a d 1 been exposed to chlorinated phenols and identi 12 those conditions which might be related to .the .work environment. 13 Show me where he determined ,their* health status, sir. 14 k A The fact that he-- * f- 15 Q Show me, please,.;'six;,: don't tell me .again the fact, sh 16 me on this document the single paragraph, the single page where `' ' * l \ ", ' ;i 17 he talks about the health of the workers, at Krummrich. 18 A I can't. *' v 19 Q It doesn't appear o n Page 1, does it, sir? 20 A No, sir. , - ,*, 21 Q It doesn't appear o n Page .2, does it, sir? 22 .A No,' sir. ,^ 23 Q Although he says oh ^Page ,2 that a thorough, review of 24 the records provided by Monsanto, medical insurance claims, t>:. 1 w o rkmen1s compensation'records, personnel records,, personal medi 2 histories, physician notations, specif ic: problems ,,and so forth, 3 hypertension, diabetes and .so forth, all .went into-- now, .but no 4 result is on Page 2, is it,,, sir? 5 A No, sir*- . 6 Q On Page 3, is there sir ,, any mention of .this health 7 status of these people? Jr 4 8 A No, sir. r ,L. , V 9 Q Page 4, is there any. mention .of it,, sir? 10 A No, sir. ^J 11 Q On Page 5, is there ^any mention of it, sir? ' ** V* t r ^A 12 A No, sir.!;. v; ^ ' v. 13 Q On Page 6 , Is there^any mention of it, sir? '' ' '\ 14 A NO, sir. ` L--f*L'r . 15 Q On Page 7, is there ..any mention of it,, sir?- It talks ! "' '' i' 16 about acne on Page 7. 4!;, v 1> 17 A Yes, sir, in great detail. .. , 18 Q In -great detail. O n Page 8 , is, there any mention of F .- '-* / 19 health status other than ^chloracne? .. 20 A Well, there are a lot of ,,skin problems. . 21 Q Excuse me, on Page 8U . w 22 A I'm looking on, Page,Y8 . 23 Q Is there mention of .^anything other t h a n 1acne or chlorai 24 A Yes, sir; > I Q ' Where? 2 A They did skin cultures and biopsies. 3 Q And that skin culture dealt with ,just the ..skin, didn't 4 it , sir? 5 A Yes, sir. * 6 Q It didn't make a single mention about their health, 7 did it, sir? 8 A That's part of the health-- 9 Q Well, does it say these people were healthy or were 10 not healthy? ..... 11 A They were trying to determine whether they had a probJ < 12 J 1' J f f ,J' related to health. f1 * 13 Q Doctor, he. talks about clinical, he .puts .one paragraph ,, i' ,r ' ,,.', 14 here on clinical laboratory ..findings, ,,doesn't he, sir? S ' ,, ** ,r 15 A Yes, sir. .> 1 ^ 16 Q * j Arid he did a lot of .laboratory tests,, did he not, sir* 17 A Yes,- sir. , ... ... 18 Q And he says the laboratory data is presented in Tables 19 15 through 22, is the laboratory data presented in 15 through 20 2 2 , sir? 21 A Yes, sir. ,, 22 Q , W h a t flaboratory data pther than the lipids and the 23 GGDT and SGOT, sir? 24 A And SGPT Q And SGPT, is the iron results 1 A No, sir. 2 T . 't- Q Alkaline phosphotase? ^ f 3 A No, sir. 4 Q Albumin? 5 A No, sir. 6 t>- Q Globulin? - * **r 7 A No, sir. 8 Q Bilirubin direct? ., yc 9 10 A Creatinine? .. .. *- '* * , ,, T A NO, sir. -% i , ,i` 11 12 Q L BUN? * \ , / A No, no,, sir. ^ *1 t 13 Q Blood? 14 ^ A No, sir. 15 m- Q ' Coproporphyrin, uroporphyrin> 16 s things reported, sir.?-- ; - * It17 A No, sir. 18 ,, - * 19 Q Glucose? if A n o , sir; 20 21 Q Then let's go down to discussion. Is there any 22 discussion of the health status of these people or any mention 23 of their health status on Page ,,8 , sir? A Yes 24 70 1,. Q... Where is .their health: status .mentioned,, sir, ,,other , :c~;: : h /' , . "a ;;- w ` . ^ `J * . L; , .-r/-* w ' / 2 " t h a n ' c h l p r a c n e ? " J `\.v 1 . "\ j -7 . r ' / y. A ,, No significant- diffarence\in 'clinical; laboratory findings J-- v. A - ' J / r/ -7 /1 '4; between perita and the: rest ,,of the^-and-, 237.. *.*" , 0 ,vi\ . '; 'y 6 health. Well, .Doctor, that'fyasn! % got' a n y t h i n g ;t o d p with their * '"].' - 7 , .A Why, it-certainly, does. *,, -/*' .J." ,-, rV S \ r^ i "J r - y 1 H^ \v 7 v , f: va_ ^ ,. * y r .- - 1 1J 1 , *_f a - J 'Jr .. * _ - ! j , r 1 "c J V1V \ *l, .8J . Q 0 h , rDoctor, ifthere,vis no .between the 9 clinical ' 10; Jare Mr the;' coiribind product, that ,,doesn V h t e l l ' y o u ,a.thing about - -'J-'v. .j J' v;:> r<-,,i-.' i..**j--1s*-ivt-` 'vSAo?v'-/,v-f.iiNi'VL ff'.'r/J^';?,r**'-..1;1vi,-K - ' ,,r. . . ^ 12 health,' they could all b e p e r f e c t l y healthy and'have .no ^diffrer c >i *'.1' vX` A t 't- '* ' ,j . r' ^] 13 or they could -- / ' all V' bf*;er - ,fa'Kljrl-iy`*ng tdQwn ;l,sicXk rand ,f ' ' have ,no: dif ference,- it ' . V t : '<r 14 doesn *t tell us a thing' about their health,\doesJit, sir? " ; , V 15 '' ,/*----^A, ':;':es,,-'slr;' ' *^ '> r* ' l `. .r>V / ' ' t V,_^ ;.7 ^ ':;'ru U _ }y *' JrrJ' ''*'^ r * ' "H-- .^.- J^ ^ ' ,J 'i, Z * 1 rj H- 11 ''' " T ^ ^ f 1t t rt t _ *r ^ i' 16 Q -.What does it tell' ahput their health? ^ / % i. ,, ^ `m\ 'f * ,,* * - r -'. *r-. .> , \i' ` 'A1 *r. XiJ\ V A 1; L^'"- 17. :A ...Itsays there are nq. differences between-the .two;- . 18 ' J'.. , Q. : 1That *s fine, then, is anybody told whether; these peopl e 19 are uihealthy or healthy?, ,J:,..., ;^ 20 A '* He says more after; this. J -A _ :'*yy - M . ^: 21 V:.,- Q . Vihere does H e ,say mqre after, .that? * Show .me.that,' sir <, i'J J.';;j r 'j 22 . J; A What?;;' r; `` \',r ' Li ^ />! 'Jv , , * * . 7, ` 4.', <" I ^ t ' , ~ 23 ' ;V Q W h e r e .he .>says; something about -their'health afterwards ; " -l'^ .. -'-J : '' "1,. ` ` L ". '* : 24 . A* .; The laboratory studies as; related to chloracne'are 1 health studies 2 'Q Chloracne is what weAre talking about . Now, chi oracne 3 does have something to do ,with health status, but excluding 4 chloracne, sir, what does he .talk about as _far as their health 5 is concerned on Page 8 ? .w ,... 6 A Nothing else. , 7 Q On Page 9, what doea he talk .about as far as their 8 health is concerned? - 9 A Besides the cholesterol, ,IiDL, SGOT, .and SGPT and GDTT, 10 those. . " f ' v ,.L 11 Q All these, there arc, no clifferences in these levels? , 12 A Yes, sir.' _ , ,\;v. *l3J * - -t '- 13 Q He doesn't say whether these people are sick or health 14 does he, sir? 15 A No, sir. ,, 16 Q All he is saying is ,there is ho difference between the 17 chloracne and the nonchloracne ..group, doesn't he, sir? 18 A Yes, sir.^ ^^ . 19 Q And that doesnVt telJ. you anything about whether or 20 not they are falling down sick or hale and healthy and hearty, 21 does it, sir? 22 A No, sir. . ^ 23 Q Doctor, is there any other mention on Page 9 as to the 24 health status of these people? s* 1 A In that discussion of lipids. .. 2 Q Sir? , ^- 3 ' A r Then the rest of the discussion .on Page 9 is o n lipids 4 Q But my question is, does have anything to do with S their health, does it tell you whether or,,not they are healthy 6 or not healthy?- . .... . , ^ 7 A Ho, sir. . .. ; .: * ; -rf V " ' 8 -Q All ,it does isrv'cpmpp:e ..the lipid levels, between the 9 people that work in pentachlorophenol and the .,,people that worked 10 in the combined 'departments;'.or .the people that had chloracne anc 11 the people that didn't havevchloracne, isn't ,,that right, sir? r' * * **!; '* * / 4 ^ 12 A Yes, sir. *. ,, . . . . . . 13 Q It doesn't tell you a thing.about their health, ..does 14 it, sir? -*- - ' 15 A Y e s , it d o e s . , w 16 Q Where does it tell you something about their health, - 17 sir? 18 A It says that these people who, have chloracne do not 19 have any abnormalities compared .to ^those vwho don't have chloracn 20 Q Well, Doctor, that doesnVt tell you .anything about 21 their health, 22 A Yes, it does. ^ ' 23 Q How so, sir? Can you tell whether, or riot these people $ 24 are healthy? A ., That those who h a v e lehloracnedo not have any " 1 2 abnormalities of lipids as, compared t o those who do not have 3 chloracne. 4 Q And that tells, you something about, well,, then is 5 lipids an indication of health, sir? ,, 6 A It is; in talking abolit dioxin.,,. 7 Q Then an abnormal lipid is an indication .that there is > r? ,,i ^ 8 something wrong, with the, people and it could be .caused by di< xirh 9' 10 A No, sir, it just means-- ^ , ^ J Sl", ' - ,1 Ji ` ^^ \ Q Well, Doctor, back up. Does, it have, something to 11 do with their health as exposed ,to dioxin or hot?^ * . 12 A It might have. . 13 Q Then it does have, dpesnVt it, .sir? Now, Doctor, but 14 even h e r e , does it tell .you ,,whether or n o t .these people with 15 abnormal lipid levels are .sick or not sick? 16 A No, sir. 17 Q It just tells you, all it does is compare the abnormal 18 levels between those that h a v e .got chloracne and those .that 19 d o n 't have chloracne, doesn't., it, sir? . ,,, _ .. 20 A Y e s , sir. -,, 21 Q But it d o e s n t tell y o u whether those people are sick 22 or healthy, does it, sir? . 23 A No, sir ^ Q * Doctor, is there anything o h Page 10 that tells you `', , ,`. *r '*j . f*' r- _1 74 * C M* ' '* f * '* j jf . l about the health of these.,people? ,-* i^ ' i T ' ' ; a ./ -./* . No, sir./. ' "r Q y Then Doctor, -s> ; 4 J > - A . Yes, sir. V ;"V* . ` - . j v p1 kj - 41 ' and Page 10 -is t h e end o f 'the report? <ri_ v, 5 : -, q r*i t (V f \ y r\;ru^-v;^ '-r /-/ Is there: a .single; itatle now in all these tables, that ; '. ,Il . ;J: j .f>rJT` \ 6 balks about .their health .status rjsir7 7. ` Z1/ '. \ O1 nly^ by - c oirr^e^ la **+ t *| ion 1'-'V,'! * l" oSf^:c" 1hlowr^ja'\ cne with t lipids. ,/' 1' - `8' '/' Q -It doesn't even tell y o u ,,that, .sir,, all it .does is . " ;r . .~ . ''-j- . '( ^ * \ E .1 /i 1 |i ' t. 1'1.,,iJ '(VT7' ^` ,.,' .,1*1, jy'' ,f. J p; , - r' ' - "' 9 .. rc o V m p-a r e u t h e chlbracne, ^.* V*P ' t.h*e -ho .chldraerie, and ts h e *.c, hr lor aicnV e,-d o e ' s n 10 it; "sir? .'/ ^ _ 1 . .`I if \ },*{'*>; - Yes.,'sir. rm\ y / 12 ; q All it does' is',,attempt, to show a relationship or nbr 13. relationship between lipids and chloracne, .doesn't *it,,-.sir? 14 k -V Yes, sir. : j\y.-- '" 15 Q 16 ' sir? *And there is no -* mention " of their ' health,:is there, # ^' *j ^ U h' 'jiL. -J.P"J ! *J .^ "^| .r - J Vf& N' ' , T "* 1 ^^ %T 1 . '' A,J ri 17 A . As beyond that', there is,not. -j'" ' ... ,'-i 1^ " ./( '. 18 ' ' Q. ^' Now, Doctor, :cbul`&~/hava' a-- there is no mention of 19; all/:these, other lab tests-, JLs .there,* .sir? ; . 20 v;' :' a V. No; ;sir. " .^\'V ` , "v J|; '* 21 ^ ? Q Now, Dpctor,.:.do: you .reckon that those, lab reports 22 ..* shbwed abnormalities in the overwhelming majority of these 23.,, people working at the Krumxnriqh' plant exposed to dioxin, or do 1 . ' ^ J. ^ r . 1 j r ^ `a ^ rt .24 you reckon these lab reports showed-few abnormalities; in these . i'1 <* - i, >' - ' 4 ' i I ' ' 1- ' '!.. - ` f :. - j \'" ' - ^ 4, ^ tj t N *>K _> . --/i BAYONNE. ` n .J: y V'*V 75 people that work there, which would you^reckon occurred-,that l h e ,did /not mention? ; ./ .,,.vV /. r'v '2- ' J , ' " '_ 3 ' ;4 : J " "5 A/: H e .may have in.his ify.nal ^report. /,,_//' . ... _r - - -r v , . S'* J j J - J' f 't - `, * Q i:.`;"Sir?^^i U'::* v *;..v . *i i . / ,,.if " ` .f . .r - " " ' * - L . -, V 1' A 1 * , XHT Ael r'i i 'm a f y / vg iv * vv ae 1 4 'ft7' l**.../ i4at 4 it%n Uh4 ias ~... f i n al '> )- report. / 'J .' civ ,r--v -- , - .6 v 7 8,, *Q \ .Doctors we have gone'thraugh the final .report jazz ,,- . ii -.~.. *i'.t>i:*t-, 'vC `-'-v V/--' ,-'V' >'"*-L-*' "S' . ' V . ' . - arid l am 'not going to g o `.through .it again * . You h a v e n o t h i n g : `' ' 1 . ' ,- ..J, \ .i 7 ;} :/ - ;; ', ' J / -s ; J ^il'*, * fJ/jf- ' 1 other than the document^that-Jias been'described to you as a- fInal report, .and,all you have is something that you did after, 9 10 it came out in this courtroom ,,in June.. T h a t ' s a i l you did,/ and X am not going to go through ..that .with you again/ .. There is no v II, ' , !? m''erntiton ofa laboratory abn-orm#a-*lities an*d1 my questi_on, sir,, if you 13 : t/ere a/guessing man, would .you .guess that th/test .results that .14: ' he'ignored ..arid left out of .this report w e r e :normal r abnormal, 15 If/you were a guessing man--,, v,, ' . r,L ,,/ 16 r M R . HEXNEMAN :/ Obj eqtion /your Honor ,,/Mr. C a r r fs \1 speech had nothing to do with /the question,/ ! ask .that it b e 18 ; stricken and ask that the .jury b e 1 instructed to. disregard .it. - 19 Further objection-- - . ; / . :'i 1 /'; 20"' , ^ MR. CARR: .Well, I 111 withdraw the ^question. 21 , -. MR. "HEINEMAN;^ .Further objection as to the question / 22 as being irrelevant. / :. _ / . .,; 23 THE COURT: The quation J.s withdrawn. - 't ' 24 (Plaintiff 's Eshihih 1504,.was, marked .for flrz'n NdOj 1 identification*,) 2 Q Doctor, I've previously placed before you what's been 3 marked as Group Exhibit 1504. You recognize those as the full 4 and complete questionnaire and lab reports and clinical examinat 5 that Dr. Suskind and his team conducted on the Krummrich plant 6 workers, do you not, sir? 7 A I don't know yet. 8 Q Haven't you looked at it?, 9 A I haven't looked at .these* 10 Q You haven't looked at these? 11 A I don't know whether, this is the whole report or not. 12 Q All right, go ahead*, 13 A Yes, sir, I think that's ,,correct. 14 Q And Doctor, a few o these reports from what you know 15 ofit do not have any laboratory results appended to them because 16 a few people didn't have the laboratory test performed, isn't 17 that correct, sir? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q But the rest of those reports all have the lab tests 20 as reported by Metpath upon Dr. Suskind's order attached theretc 21 A Yes, sir. . 22 MR. CARR: I offer 1504 into evidence, if it please 23 the Court. 24 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1504 was offered J into evidence.),, . 2 MR. HEINEMAN: .May counsel approach the bench, your 3 Honor? , < y " V /' 4 THE COURT: , Sure. . 5 '(The following proceedings were held at the 6 bench.) -;\ > r , \ a ' ,r- % i; "r .. 7 MR. HE INEMAN: Your ..Honor,, we would ^object to the 8 admission of these records on.-the basis that-.they're hearsay and 9 that no foundation has been laid by Mr. Carr for their admission 10 and he's never deposed Dr,Suskind,. he .hasn't b r o u g h t Dr. Suskim 11 into court. These documents -I believe were prepared by Dr. Busk: 12 they were certainly not prepared b y this witness. We don't have 13 a proper custodian, we don't have the person that prepared the 14 documents, we don't have anybody who had anything to .do with 15 their preparation to testify .about them, ,,and ,therefore they are 16 not admissible. They're .hearsay. .There's been no foundation 17 -laid. - ' -/' 18 MR. CARR: Your Honor, the record has established that; 19 these are records of Monsanto's, they paid for this .study, it 20 was done under contract by bn. Suskind, as t hey have admitted, 21 and is in evidence. These ,,arc .questionnaires that t h e i r agent, 22 Dr. Suskind asked, they had ;an interview, the documents show 1 j* 23 themselves to be just that,, and they have been in .Monsanto1s 24 possession, they are lab reports that Monsanto has paid for, 1 these are documents that have been produced by Monsanto and :'.V'' ''- '< v' . 2 claim to be authentic by Monsanto to u s , .and I see no need for 3 any further foundation than ..that. ` They are Monsanto documents. 4 MR. HEINEMAN: ,.Now, ^your .Honor, Mr. Carr knows that 5 about 30 percents of whai-\he ijust said is patently false*. , 6 MR. CARR: Oh? , 7 MR. HEINEMAN: They ,,were lot in our possession. This 8 Court had to order u s `to. get them .from Dr. Suskind.. My recollec 9 and I think the C o u r t1 s recollection would be that Dr*. Suskind 10 maintained a "privilege with respect to these documents. .He 11 wou l d n 11 give them to us. ..The ,Court ordered us to get them from 12 him. We finally did get .them from him pursuant t o .this C o u r t 's 13 order. You know the procedure that Dr. Suskind required of 14 getting receipts from everybody. .. ,,' 15 THE COURT: If I remember correctly, someone, in the 16 course of all that made the .determination that due to the relati 17 ship between' Monsanto and .Suskind that they were ,,under your 18 control, as control is construed In our discovery procedures, i 19 believe I made that determination along the .line. 20 - MR. CARR: You did, ^and in fact they did tell Dr. 21 Suskind to give them the reports and these1 reports were given. 22 . THE COURT: Okay* objection is overruled. 23 (The following ^proceedings were held in 24 open'Court.) * ' 1 Jf * \S - . ; t'r / r" i " -1 i ' - THE COURT: Group Exhibit; 1 5 0 4 -is admitted over 1 objection. 2 V.. .. , ^. ;(Plaintiff',s Es^hibih1 150 4. .was admitted 3 into evidence.^ Y ,,.r,,, . . , \,n. 4 '* P 1 n ^ * ,* k k A l ' i r 1t * ** ' ` * BY MR. CARR: 5 ._ , , Q Doctor, the very first one of a gentleman named 6 Andrews, it gives his background, his birthdate, Where he lived, 7 what departments he worked In, who his prior employers were, and 8 what kind of jobs he had, whether, or not he smoked; did he eat-- 9- what did he eat on the job,, ^and a long list of some 2 1 questions 10 dealing just with what he -did at work, isn't that .correct, sir? 11 A ' Yes,, sir. r, 12 . Q It talks about tobacco consumption,, alcohol consumption 13 14 and talks about has a family history, health history for the family, and it has a personal...medical .history as, well, does it 15 not, sir? ' 16 ,, A Yes, sir. V" , , 17 Q ,, It asks all kinds o^.queatiohs all/the way from 18 headaches down to cancer, .isn't that siight, sir,? 19 20 A Yes,, sir. , r . - 21 Q Skin cancer and other f o r m s ,of cancer. ,.And it asks 22 about hospitalization, what kind of :hospitalization. Then they 23 ask a question, what current symptoms does he show, does he have 24 on Page 11, isn't that right, sir? **44'jf. A1 '^j4Jn 1 -A -Yes, "siri 1 ' 4 t 'i1 1 1 *L , '. 2 Q And these Jare `the questions asked .currently, do you 3 have headaches , daily weekly ,: less ythan weekly? Do you have 4 trouble sleeping? Are you tilled most o f the time? Do you need 5 more sleep than usual? Do 'you have a good .appetite? Do you 6 lose your temper easily? u Do ..you feel angry often? Those were 7 the six-- I'm sorry, seven .questions asked, isn',t that correct, s 8 dealing with the current .health status or symptoms currently 9 displayed? .. 10 A Yes,; sir. ,, < - . , 11 Q And Doctor, there are no ,,other questions .asked in whic|j 12 they are asked about their .current health problems other than , 13 these seven questions, isn'/t.that correct? 14 A Yes, sir. * 15 Q And these deal with Jieaduches, sleep difficulty, . 16 fatigue, appetite, and neurobehavioral problems, don't they, six 17 A Limited, but, yes. 18 Q Yes. And they're asked to respond yes o r no to each 19 of' those questions. .. . . . . . ; 20 A Yes, sir. -- 21 Q Oh, and this study goes on to ask about medications, 22 what are .they taking now, ,what kind of health aids -they have, 23 and then there is several .pages for the clinical examination, 24 isn't there, sir? f>' ---,, <, 'V ,, A .Yes, sir. ,t . ^ < ,, , ; ,,. 1 t j- .Q ` For blood pressure, ,,pulse, respiration, ..temperature, 2 weight,.height, and then .there is a review of systems, isn't 3 there, sir? 4 * A ' Yes, sir. 5 , Q For the physician to, not .only take ,,additional history 6 for a review of systems, to.,,.indicate ,,problems,, abnormal findings 7 but also a physical examination for the review of systems, isn't 8 there, sir? L 9 A* Yes, sir. 10 Q There are several peaces,, there is places for diagnosi 11 and impression, isn't there,, sir? 12 A Yes, sir, 13 14 Q And Doctor, from your prior examination, you know that 15 that same thing is true for-each of these employees who took part in this Krummrich plant .health .study, isn't that correct, 16 sir?. 17 *>< t 18 A Yes, sir. 'v , ,,v . 19 Q ' Now, Doctor, the symptomatology that's asked by 20 Dr. Suskind in his questionnaire, could you find a n y p l a c e in 21 the record that he made dated September .29, 1980 in which h e 22 refers to the symptomatology .displayed by these people? . 23 A No, sir. -1` ^ 24 Q Because it does not ^exist> does 'it,,"sir? ir A No, sir. 1 .* . Q He asked these .questions *to find out whether or not 2 they have, what health symptoms .they h a d or. t o put it .another 3 way, v/hat sickness symptoms .they had, did they have neurobehavic 4 problems, do they have fatigue problems,, do they have sleep 5 1 1 t. problems, do they have appetite problems, do they have headache 6 problems, all of these things he asks, but'he doesn't make a 7 single mention of what he .discovered ,in this.group.report and 8 9 questionnaire, does he, sir?... 10 A .Yes, sir.' -,.. , . . 11 Q Where does he make a, mention .of that,, sir? 12 A _ By not including it^. ,, , . r 13 Q Doctor, my question 4 s doesn't make a single mentic 14 does he, sir? .**-*,,, . 15 A No, sir. * 16 Q In this report? `* 17 A - No, sir. * 18 Q And he gives no explanation in' this report as to why 19 he did not include that which he discovered in this questionnair 20 rdoes h e , sir? **.v 21 A No, sir. . . *, 22 THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Carr,, is this a .good point to 23 break for lunch? 24 MR. CARR: Yes, your Honor. - ,. V 1 THE COURT; Ladies and gentlemen, we v/ill break for 2 lunch at this time. We will resume again at one o'clock. The 3 admonishments that I gave ,you earlier will apply during this ' 4 lunch break also. The Court .is in recess . 5 (At this time, ^Court recessed for the 6 noon hour.) J 7 BY .MR. CARR:l ; . . '* ' ; 8 Q Doctor, the questionnaire, the physical .examination an 9 the laboratory tests, Group Exh i b i t 1504, were all basically 10 referred to or related to .workers who w e r e exposed to. chlorinate II phenols and therefore possibly dioxin'and more specifically 12 2,3,7, 8 TCDD, isn't that correct, sir? -r < 13 A N o , si r . *. '..^ 14 Q That isn't -correct? T< ` ^ , 15 A ' No, sir. 16 Q , What part of the, question oir what fact ,in that ques&ic); tg 17 was incorrect, Dr. Rousch?., , . 18 A Forty-four ofjthose ^people had never been exposed to 19 2 ,3,7,8. :v ,.. 20 Q Wherein is that stated, Dr,. Rousch? 21 A Oh Page 7, 43 of them had .worked in 236 . \ . 22 Q And is that the equivalent to saying that they were 23 never exposed to 2,3,7f8 ? ^ !. 24 -A. 'Yes, sir, ,i Q Doctor, 236 and 237 ^ r e right next to one another, are r. they not? 2 A 'Yes, sir. , 3 v. Q As a matter of. ;fact,? pipes go from'one .department to 4 the other department, donit ,,they,, sir?,. 5 .j A Yes,, sir. 1 r ,T . 6 - Q Yourcan't really tell the,.difference .between the two1 7 departments, can you, sir,,:,when you're out there at the plant. . 8 A Yes, sir. 9 ^ `. 10 Q You can really tell ^the dif ference? , .,,-,, * 11 A There is a separation between the two plants., 12 Q J Between the two departments? , A . Yes. 13 J - Q A r e n 't they right n^xt t o one .another? , 14 A Yes, sir.- , IS Q And Doctor, these people ,pf' necessity, the-people that 16 work in Department 236 walk ^through Department 237 .from time to 17 time, don't they, sir? . 18 A I'm sure they did. ^ : ^ 19 20 Q And Doctor, these people *are people that are working 21 right within a few feet of .one another, aren't they, sir? 22 A , They work close to e>ach other, but they are separated. 23 Q Doctor,-they are separated simply because you have a 24 number on one department that says 236 and right ,nekt to it you 85 1 have the other department that says, you*ve got a number on it '2 that says 237, isn't that .correct, sir? . 3' A Yes, sir. * 4 Q And they're working,' they can work right just within 5 a few feet of one another? 6 A I don't think that'a right. 7 Q W e i l ', Doctor, aren't these departments just butted up 8 right against one another?. 9 A Yes. 10 Q Doctor, the'people that work in 236, they've worked in 11 this plant for a number of years, well,, anybody that goes through 12 that plant, we went through it on a bus, but anybody that goes 13 through that plant during the time that.it's manufacturing these 14 materials, the exposure, the.dust, the spillage or whatever, 1.5 anybody that goes through .there is exposed at one time or 16 another, are they, not, sir?.. 17 A To a degree, yes. * ., 18 Q That's what I said,*all of these people, all of'these 19 people working in the chlorinated phenol department'had some 20 exposure t o dioxin, do they not, sir, 2,3,7,8 TCDD dioxin? 21 A But the difference is-- . . 22 Q Excuse me, did they ,,not, ..sir? 23 A 1 don't know. ,, , .... ,, 24 Q Well, Doctor, you know t h a t >there has toL be some 1 &V BAYONNE, N.J, J1, 1 Ui ' + f a't ^ 86 1 exposure bn the part, of each person, you know that, d o n 'jt you,', sir?v ` r-'. ' V -, '/ J 3.' A i would,presume so, ^but.'3- don't know. /: 4' Q . Well, it's a presumption,,.that you can make, a deduction 5 iat you can make based upon the facts that you know about 6 :; Departments 237, 236, 239.,;,262,.'268, isn't that correct, sir? 'J; ' $ r' 8 : , - ; N o . , : . \ s i r ^ ' ' - V " Q -What is wrong there,., sir?.. Thai: .is-^a^prestixqptipn that 9 you made based upon your, knowledge about those departments, ' 10- isn't" it, sir?V V ; ;,, J, v r II. A ' I think there is avdifference between .working in r.236 12 and .237, those who work in 236 are not exposed to 2,3,7,8. 13 Q Doctor, 2,3,7, 8 is in Department 237, is it not, sir? i4,y '/'* A - _ Yes, -sir. ' v." ' 7 V /. 1 *tf " .. `"V 15 " Q. And has been for ever since Department 237. was 16 organised*back1 in .what,.the ,40s, d i d n 't we decide"the other day? i .* 17'.;' ;>-j.a .v *ii-.think so; , , \ -V>: L ` J,1 18 , Q ;So in the mid or!late 40a, at .least, Department 237 ha|s .l?k- sat .right next, to Department .236 .and .for all ..those ,30, 35 years 20 v it;was manufacturing chlorinated phenols, it was' manufacturing 21 2,3,7, 8 TCDD; was it not,, .sir?' ; " ' .1 ' 22. ' A* ;!Yes* sir.,:-, ' : ' ,frJ-: if -j -I '^ ' '(.<' ;--i , ' r. 23 , Q And j^ose-workers'that^wQrk1i n 'Department 2,3,7,8 -- . -24 . I'm sorry, in ,Department.236 come-into within j u s t a few feet f :' * ... tf'j: /.> < y y t ^' tUv- :,rv ir1; 'y \ v :- * -/y\ r1 V 0*j rm i ` IS)V I -Ev b a y o n h e . 'n ; j . t. %1*- \* n r-- ^ ,< 1 of 237, don't they, sir? 2 A Yes, sir. .* 3 Q And do they not of necessity have, some exposure to tha 4 which is produced in Department 237 by virtue thereof? 5 A Yes .j ^ r r, 6 Q And that which.is produced.in D e p artment.237 was 7 2,3,7,8 TCDD, was it n o t > .sir?, ..... , 8 A Yes .. 9 Q And therefore they had some exposure to that 2,3,7, 8 10 TCDD, did they not, sir?, 11 A The only question, what do you mean by. .some? 12 Q Any exposure. .They ,,had some exposure to that which 13 was producedLin Department.237? ,. 14 A I,-don't know. . ... 15 Q Doctor, I thought yqu just ,,got through saying that you 16 did know that they were exposed to that which .was produced in 17 Department 237. / .- 18 A I don't know. - , 19 Q Doctor, didn't you j*ust say that they were, exposed? 20 A I d o n 't-- ,, .*. *. 21 Q Didn't you just say^that,* sir? Are you now changing v - r '; 1 , 22 your mind, sir? T .v 23 A I'm saying I don't know whether .there was exposure in 24 236 to 2,3,7,8 .`\ .If 'it was., it was so small, but I can't say it 1 wasn't and i can't say it was so small. 2 Q Doctor, I don't care about how, small it is, because, 3 this case deals with symptoms caused by .small amounts of dioxin. 4 That's the whole thrust of this case, that is relevant to this 5 case. Doctor. These people that work in these,, not just those 6 people in that plant, but .everybody that .works in. that Krummrich 7 plant has some exposure to that which is produced ih Department 8 237, do they not, sir? 9 A I don't know. * 10 Q Doctor, are you saying you don't know, because you hav 11 seen the 2 ,3,7, 8 floating ..down on them, or is it you say you 12 don't know because you can' deduc that from the^facts that 13 you do know? ., 14 A I can't deduce it frpm the facts I know. 15 Q All right, Doctor, you know there is a street that 16 goes right by Department 237,. don't you, sir? 17 A Yes, sir. ,, 18 Q And you know there is-- well, there is two streets, one 19 goes one direction and one goes another direction, don't yoii, 20 sir? , , ., 21 A . I don't r e m e m b r -that.. \ 22 Q Sir? . - ,,\ . 23 A I don' t remeber^thtt.: , 24 Q You don !:t remember.tbat? A I know it goes past J.t, and that's it. 1 2 Q There is the main street vthat goes right through the Krummrich plant is just what, ..ten .feet from Department 237? * 3 A I.don't recall.. ^ 4 , .. Q When is the last time you -have been to the Krummrich 5 plant, Dr. Rousch? .6 7 A Five or seven years -ago. ^ 8 Q Doctor, you recall the main entrance where you have 9 the guards and you go in -the building t o .get the hats and all 10 that, and just about a half a block down, -you recall that big, 11 wide streett there, sir?> ^' .- _ ,, , . .v , 12 A Yes, sir. r. 13 Q And you recall just ^ half a block down that street 14 on into the plant is Departments 236 and 237 off to the right- 15 hand side there? 16 A I remember, but I'ro^iot sure how .close it was to the 17. headquarters. . 18 . Q And there is another street where you can turn right 19 off of that big main ,street and you go ..right past 236 and 237, 20 you know that, sir? * , , -- - *. , * ' . * u p ^*, ', - ' ,' 21 A I think I recall that. ', 22 Q Now, the'workers in vttat JKrummrich plant have occasion f ,',* ' ' - < 1 ` ,- 23 to be on both of those streets from time to time, don't they. 24 sir? A Yes, sir, 1 Q And the cracking pl^nt or the distilling plant or the 2 pipes and all that, these ,,are all out in the open, they are not 3. in an enclosed building, are they, sir? 4 A No, sir. 5 v, Q When they said building, Pthey d o n ' 1 really mean 6 building, they mean an area that has been assigned to Department 7 236 and another area that .has.been.assigned ,o Department 237? 8 9 A Yes, sir. t 10 Q So there in fact weto no ,,buildings,, it's all out there 11 in the open, isn't it, sir,? ,, ~ 12 A Yes, sir. r 13 MR, HEINEMAN: I object to that, your Honor. I don't 14 know that Mr. Carr has any ,,evidence that Department 237 was out 15 in the open, --. 16 MR. CARR: I think X have the evidence right here from 17 this witness,, your Honor,'.. / . 1 i t ^ J . r ' 1,, , ,i 18 THE COURT: Objection is overruled. 19 Q Now, Doctor, because'.this .study, well, you at Monsanto ' 't - Jt j ' 20 knew the difference between e o o n t r o l group that has no exposure 1C ' * * i ,,*' ; - 21 to 2,3,7, 8 TCDD and a group that could have of did have possible 22 2,3,7, 8 exposure, you know, the difference, don't you? 23 A Yes, sir. . 24 Q And none of these people^that were a part of this 1979 ,91 t ;Kruimhrch plant study meet,.that definition .of acontrollad, '[ 1 < unexposed group, do they,, air?.... ....., 2, . " A ; /. No>.sir. 3' _/ - s r; . Q ` They are/, therefore all ,,in a part of '.a>group that 4 could have, exposure to/2,3,7,.8TCDD, ,,isn't that correct, sir? . '5 A '6 r ,,- .*..^ x 1 ,*4 r't J- Q i* 7 No, -sir* * '.-kt 'i -O'.j.. * * ',, ' ' T v .. *.;, t r _' t .\4 r ' 1 ~ j* 1 t , W h i c h .of those^workers, d o c t o r , ,could not have possible, exposure to 2,3,7, 8 .TCDD? , , . /.* ;' * ' '8- / ^ ^-`^V--'(- ^-><.H J ' ',''j'.v. ,, " j - " -4'i,F- T t1 r1 , ^ J~ JJ . n9 A'"A - .236. ' . 1- n' " , >' .-v ` L_ ' *' - - ; ,r *,^ S 1L* Q They could have no possible exposure t o 2,3,7#8 TCDD? v' 10 1 "; 4 :t\ \ A v i;c a n 't say that. ; n; - ' Q ; I know you canVt say; that, Doctor, and .because y o u / H; .// ` ` 13 know- good- and well they, could have possible .exposure:.to 2,3,7, 8 TCDD ' .14* v * T h e y ,could r * V" have jit just * *^ A""rV*". ^ in>.that >spill *that *'-L :` * , .' j t o o k ;place w*-r>'--*w.'. in it ''5 February of 1979, they could have it just from that fumes that ; 15 went through the plant .-from ^thatVspill,. .they could have it from *tt_ 16 - : ; ! / ; ! , . - iTrr_ i? ' iilf*' j , Z'* *u'x' ; -** ^ * ^ -> u^ goho.'f^0 ,>17 the dust that accuiriulated'Xfrom--that spill a n d blew. through the Dlant. iust from%that one.incident out of 30 .or 40 vears of r - . / 18 U22T ' V maniifactiirincr. -coiildn!t thev.-sir?' `''''r *QS '19- , 1* 4jj < 2M., `' 20 . 21 ' ' 22 L ; MR.`HEINEMAN:. /VObjedtion,: your; Honor. .There is no- i < r. L 1 yJ vr. \j> \; y< r , 4 - ._ ' ., evidence there- was any fumes,, ,,there ,is, no .evidence there was J'` aOiritjfv j.#4UhUqO+L*. 1v ,'' * '- ' : ^ '-/ 1 -:- , . ,h ,,'., * , -,,- .. ,, j. v , - \ j /1 * L- '; 23 .. U 24` r iJrLiJtlilpib1*nvrit/TUTAP^lpr nV/vV(5ciX*iX*UnllvagHM #- ^r , i,44 ^ n& Tx vwUxun ^4w*poScnity?- ^uiActyr ^tivtfutiuixlful hiiAdtvfA nnoA A*V*Tv^nPer^ipv^^< 4 1 - .Li." '', ^ ^lv-, ia' ^^ * L " _ 1 '^,, F* BAYONNE. N.J. 92 -1 - Q . T h a t 1s w h a t l a m ;asking you , sir, ,..You can *t say that/ ^1 ' r . , '' ' ' i , ( ' . ,. f / . . ' ' '- ;* 2 . can you, sir?.-' " ..*1 r / . /, '* ' *-> 1 :v. >V-, J / ' ...." '. -3;V y \..k y n o , sir. : y>. /yy* -', * // . . / * r . .-* y- 4 ' rQ, .'And.Doctor, your. 193,4 proposedJKrummrich plant study / -.5 L by Northwestern or the "one 'that Northwestern gave/you the /, 6 protocol-for," you wanted that .study of the Krummrich plant ' a r % * - * rl - -- * t ' - .i - J* * ,* . i *< w * ' 'r _ \ * *f .. 7 employees,- that.i s , that ,,could.have /pos sible exposure to dioxin 8 and: compare that ,to a group ..of people who never /worked in that . V ' ' . . i* . ' . . - ( -- * , , - ` I l' ' " 9' ; pi ant.who ,never -had 'any pbs sibis .exposure ,,to dioxin , i s n If, I 1 that correct, sir?'/-/. . . ... . ' 1 .1 * - 12 ' 13 - ' a / : No,,.sir. ' *y y /* -r Q That isn1t correct? A N,: sir. y ; f- '/* y / , ' : . /\ / / y ../ 14 / ' (Plaintiff's E3$hibit l505uand 15.06. were 15 marked for identification.). .^ .v.y , c > `. ' - r*f \ r ' [ ? V< y ;V . ^, r/C 16 .> - ..." ' y y :.i i\ -v y * / ', r ' / Q /:- / Doctor,, I-?Ilf hkndjyou ^what Haa been marked Plaintiff1 *H 17. / Exhibit;1506 and ask you J.\ -C'* *' if .that d s a Monsanto ,ddoc ument dealing v-' ; - ' . v . -, ' y V ;;,v ; ;; ^ y " . y V. . *_1,8'/rr ,with- the nmber/of ';empyees 'at^irisant ywith potential exposure * , '-- L ; ` - n' ' j* . ` 19 . to dioxin,at .Krummrich?.^/;,:,y y : 1 .' - .y ; " y .J - - y \~j 1 ^ v y l' i:v -' - "- J ' - r /. .- J .. \ . 20 .. 'A r Y e s > sir.; 1 ,Jy /.- .r ' V j-- - ; , ' 21 y MR. CARR: Offer whatever; the n u m b e r i s , 1506,, in 22 evidence, if it please th ;Court. -i jJ` / 23 ? /J / (Plaintiff's Exhibit, 1506 was offered . 24 . / *- ^ . into, evidence. X. .* ^ . . ./ . . '1 ** .1 0 AYONNE. N.J. 1 THE COURT: Any objections? ,, ,* . . 2 MR. HEINEMAN: .Yes, your Jfonor. T h e r e 1s been no 3 foundation laid for the admissibility of this .document. He 4 hasn't established that this ..witness ever saw it before, that 5 he wrote it, that he got ,,it. . .,-r 6 MR. CARR: Your, Honor, on. its face it says it!.s 7 department.of medicine, environmental health, J.H. Spraul, M;D. 8 MR. HEINEMAN: ,iAll j^Lghtr> it doesn't mention George 9 Rousch, M . D . , does it? And .the top document doesn't look like 10 it's any part of what's attached to it there. , ; 11 MR. CARR: I'm.giving it to you .the way it was given 12 to me, counsel. , ... 13 THE COURT: Okay, objection is overruled. ' It is 14 admitted over objection. ... . , 15 . t *.(Plaintiff s;Exhibit 15061 was . 16 11 admitted;into evideuce. I J *' , r r 1 ' s *1. Q Dr. James H. Sprauliis^ a ,,doctor in your department, 18 Is he not, sir? , r ", ; ^ _ ' r 19 A Yes, sir. .v * 20 Q And you and he .and cithera in your department work on 21 this proposed study to be ,,conducted by Northwestern University 22 which we have discussed before? 23 .A Yes, sir. ,, ' ,, 24 Q Did you not, sir? i\nd this document has as. a heading fi , , 1 of it The Estimate of Number of Employees with Potential Dioxin 2 Exposure at Krummrich, does it not, .sir? 3 A Yes, sir. r 4 Q And it describes in ,,that ,,group as Department 236, 237, 5 268 and 239, does it not, .sir? - .^ , 6 A Yes, sir. ... w. . . 7 Q Sir? *. 8 A Yes, sir. .* *, 9 Q And the second page stalks, about comparing this group 10 with a suitable control population, doesn't it, sir,, in the n paragraph numbered 2 under, the heading proposed Program?, 12 A Yes, sir. , ?. 13 Q And the objective of the .study is to get an' independen * tj Ji , ' \ J ,_h 7' 1 - "* ^ .4 * 14 study of the'healthstatus of workers in these departments to IS establish whether or not there are health effects attributable ; ' , * \ * -c t 16 to dioxin, does it> sir? -..,^ J 17 A Y e s , s i r . - , , ] ,, , 18 Q Then it deals with workers in 236 who have the 19 potential for exposure at ..Krummrich to dioxin, doesn't it, sir? 20 A Yes, sir. ^ l,, 21 Q And that is the same group of people that t h e Krummric: 22 health study worked with t h a t w e are now discussing in Exhibit 23' 1500 and 1501 and 1504, isn't that correct, sir?, 24 A Yes, sir. 95 1 ,.Q , .So now your department has-described these,people as \2 having;a potential for-dioxiA .expose,.'don't they, sir? 3 * . A',- 'Yes,' Sir. . ' '>* - '" ; ,, ' *; v ;. - . 'V . 4: Q And .they w a n t ,to compare ,,them with.-the people /who have * ' V. # . had no exposure, d o n 11 they,, sir? ^ " " ^ .* ' T.. > rv r * . f '-w r '6 #j I ^ ' 7` r,-1 A ^ Yes,'sir. . ;'\V v -- - *;' '.'' '"k' L \ */\ Q - Now, D o c t o r , b a c k to .this grbup that-We1re talking , .y .8 about. This group, therefore, all potentially had some exposure *s, I * 9 10; ' t o :dioxin. .By; this group,/.I meah .the-Krurnmrich.plant health study," the group that describes in Suskind*s report.- dated September ' 11 12 13 ' ' ' 14 29th, 1980/; >' r ' */ ' ^ ,/'.-?->r-J , ", 1 v ^ k ' -i , .* ^ 'l y * 1 7\ * ' l^ ' i"1' " '* 7 ^h< - ' - MR. HEINEMAN:. .Objection,,, your, Honor. He .was talking *' .'6 r ... i T.. 1 ' " . ..* aabboout 2 ,3,7, 8 before, and ^this/document talks .about dioxin,, r v'*\ !;' *:-V ii * *-`7 > \ < v * r' 1 VjL: v s i >:/ -A?-> generally. Object to it .as^misleading. is; . 16 L 17 18^ ,.. ,Q 'A THE COURT.: ; Ob jecticm is ^overruled. r-, ^ *,, L a. ' A ' s f .r ' 2 ' ,j * s .'.Cbuld you answer that question, please/.sir? Yes. *'?' >:'t i\ V'b * ,*'V -- c ' V jc - ^ '& frM t `V * -* ,k . Q -Arid is'that; Idle answer to/my, question, .yes?. , a . f 19 A. It's a study o f .thos,e exposed to dioxin,, and 'the f i, 20 answer., is y e s . " '' .J-, ,v. / : - 21 *'' ,.Q Yes., Now, Doctor^ these,,.this study then that we hav^ - 1 22 here, that Dr;' Suskind performed.was not of /unexposed1people, 23 was "it, s i r ? ' >. - h, - *r.v ' # '24 A No'/ sir. ' l \ ' ` - `' J:'.'/ 'JT 1 i -.-7-'v^-,r /- " " ^/ - ' * y{'\: .. . - ': i. p e n g a d . c o .. ba von ne. n .j . otooi. roRM il 2a b Q Now, these people, sir, all had ,various, .tests performed I 2 and you, of course, have seen the test .results. But if-I under stand it correctly, you have not analyzed them except following 3 the-- or during the time we had our recent vacation break, isn't 4 that correct, sir? 5 ,,. .. 6 A I didn't look at the individual records until this interval. 7 Q That's what I've aslged you, sir. 8 - A Yes, sir. 9 * (Plaintiff's Eafribit 1507 was marked , 10 11 for identification.! 12 Q * Doctor, i hand you Plaintiff1s.Exhibit 1507 and ask you if that is the analysis ..that we prepared that you have seen 13 and saw during this vacation break vthat,! delivered to Monsanto? 14 >r ,. J " t V 1 A Yes/ sir. 15 i * r4 jT '' ' 1 k^ if , 1 1 M R . -HEINEMAN: 'Excuse me,, your Honor. . Are we missing 16 a number? What happened to 1505? 17 MR. CARR: I didn't,,use it. I had it marked, but I 18 didn't use it. 19 20 MR. HEINEMAN: Shouldn't*1 get to see it? 21 MR. CARR: The witness didn't see it,- I didn't refer 22 to it. 1 used another document to prove the point, counsel. 23 Your Honor, I'm goii^g to ask some questions with the 24 Court's permission about this exhibit, and I would like the jury 1 to have the exhibit, and X .will represent ,,to the Court that this: 2 exhibit is a summary of those things shown in Group Exhibit 3 1504, and that at the conclusion of .Dr, R o u s c h 'sstestimony--X 4 could have asked to take h i m off, and I have told counsel and th< 5 didn't want to do that, I will have a registered nurse who will 6 testify to the results in this and that these are in fact ihe / - '- 7 results shown from and data taken from Group Exhibit 1504, and 8 X will represent to the Court that it will be .so connected, and 9 I'd like to pass it to the jury so that X might ask some 10 questions:.oi the witness.,; 11 MR. HEXNEMAN:.A r e 1you moving its admission now? 12 MR. CARR: I am, based upon the condition that I will 13 tie.it up. ' ~ ; ,;v \ 14 MR. HE INEMAN: ^May w e approach the bench, your Honor? IS THE COURT: Yes^ yop. may*, , 16 (The following ^proceedings were held at the 17 bench.) 18 MR; HEINEMAN: Your.Honor, obviously we would object 19 to this document created by somebody employed by Mr. Carr on 20 a number of different grounds. First of all, it's our position 21 that .the evidence on which he has represented it .is based, is 22 inadmissible. .1 know the .Court has already ruled that it's 23 admissible and admitted it into evidence, but our position is 24 that the underlying data that he represented this is based on' }' is. .inadmissible; in addition/: there is no foundation laid foi its admission into evidence., V.I i s hearsay. /..There is no ' ' A ' . v, " expert who. has" testified b q flink up :what he .purports to show by- this.exhibit/with any ,f ..the .Kemner' plaintif fs . Its probativ value and its relevance^ have' not been /established. ' .In our opinion, it is inaccurate /and it would be unfair..' For example, if I am. able to establish i n -,cross examihing. his next witness who; is svipposed to gualify^ this document , i f l airable to establish" to the C ourt 1s.vsatisfaction that it i s sufficiently ,,S * 'L ^ *1 ` - ""P .* 'A "-I- ^1. ^ ir I-'"* - .v\ , " inaccurate,,that /it *has/f'inadequate probative value and .should' - be stricken, it' will be too late. ...Th J u r y will have already seen it and It will be tocu lat. to ^erase i t from/,their minds. , v\; .; .^ v,-,> ^*;< : v .:>t. v :ii-..?-/.>. v. , '?'. - . /L< So it .isn't fair to us to Lgive it t o the jury now before we have an opportunity to7 crossv examine the person whorls allegedly going'to establish its foundation,.and we object to'it. - There is ,a great many things in i t .which we ^think are inaccurate. There .is a[ number of things in It which .are hot in the lab . ' 1 reports that were done and offered .cm b e h a l f of the Plaintiffs ' in the case.. In other; words, the lab reports that/.were done, of the -specimen' submitted b y t h e Plaintiffs, there are some things that are i n .-this that' are .not i n .that, and it's unfair to compare apples and orangs. ;. : , v. - rTHE COURT.:- You mean, different tests?. . i . :M R / HEINEMAN i] Dif ferent ,,test s , right. ./And, there 's it* if; ,*>> 99 1 just no foundation for it,.:and .it puts us .in an impossible 2 position to ask-the jury to. see it now. We would submit to 3 the Court that eventually .it shouldn't b e submitted at a l l , V 4 that it's totally inadmissible JLn any event. 5 MR. CARR: Your, Honor, X Jiave the option if I wish 6 to ask th Court leave to ,,take the Doctor off and put on this ^- r r 7 witness and put the Doctor on for the .relatively few questions 8 that ,I am going, to ask hiiti..about this exhibit., . I have represent ad 9 to th Court, 1 will represent t o the Court that this is a true 10 and accurate summary of .the .data th a t 's in this .exhibit. They. ' 11 have had this exhibit in .their hands how for, oh,, at least a 12 month or thereabouts. The .Doctor has "reviewed it, heVs reviewed 13 the reports, and if in fact ..this Court ultimately strikes this 14 exhibit, it would have to,be .on the .basis that it *is .not an 15 .accurate reflection; substantially accurate reflection of the 16 exhibit that's already in evidence* and I am representing to the 17 Court that it is a substantially accurate'summary of the test 18 results. r ,, t ^ ` 19 THE COURT: I'm going to .,,overrule y o u r (objection. 20 I'll allow you to have it .admitted subject to later connection. 21 MR,'CARR: Thank yon, your Honor. . . . 22 (The following ^proceedings were held in 23 . open Court.) , ,, * . 24 Q Doctor, to p u t .this JLn proper perspective, it is a batonne, n .j< 100 1 1, * i summary of the Krummrich plant health study, it bears-- it deals 2 with the chlorinated phenol .Departments 236 .and ,237, and it 3 shows the date of examination is. 1979, done by Dr. Suskind, and 4 it was reported in September,, .1980,. do you .see thatZ And that 5 all is correct, to your knowledge,, is.it not, .sir? 6 A ' Yes, sir. i Q I 'm sorry, I/couldnVt hear you. ' J ^ . ", . ^ ' 8 A Yes,;s i r . ^ . .. , 9 Q K And it discusses the; symptoms, reported there are 10 headaches, sleep difficulty, fatigue,, poor appetite, and ' 11 12 \ 13 neurobehavioral problemsv f ..and -,t,,1h'o1s<e1 are, symptoms represented b y the questions 3 to 9 that .we previously asked you that were part of this study, are they not, sir? . 14 MR.- HEINEMAN: ..Excuse me,, are you asking him whether 15 the checkmarks there represent those questions? . . 16 MR. CARRs N o , ,the symptoms reported at the top of 17 the page, counsel. If you see, I just read it, whether or not *18 those are the same symptoms that I discussed with him this 19 morning that were represented by questions 3 ..to. 9 .on ,t h e . 20 questionnaire t h a t 's part,of .Exhibit 1504. 21 A , Yes, sir,. v# \ . 22 Q And Doctor, you recqgnise the names as those names 23 of those people that submitted to.this examination, do you not. 24 sir? PENGAD CO.: BAYONNE, N.J. 07002 FORM IL 24 B 101 . A' . Yes,- sir. :; '>*- , y. " -- Q And, there are .some. 5^8 in .number, do you see that , sir? I *m .sorry, 58 on one p a g e ,' 50 *n another, 108 in number?- : A 105* V t -if -r '` - r'/ Q Well, I think you added it up, it added ,p to b 108, but I w o n 11-quarrel with .yur-- .. /'i , \ .. * .; -k -1 -- ^ * *n ^ . i- *1 i(i"! J , :c\\ i '**N *j - L t* ; t a t I i. >> }y.' ** -r ^- ,,, i7 * . ,- A1 , *vm s, t otrry-,i';yrvp*^''fjima;yv-4w'l^l-/t r4ig-h't*. '- I . tov#okyJt/hose numbers t - * -I1 1k ' jk ' ' -- *'* . ` r tr '- J J.* - 'I r J and .added them u p . 1 thought; it was .105, but it does come out- ' 1 , ' '' / i'"' M 1`-* '.v ; I thought there*were ^id5 .rather1than 08 ^ : ... - 5 Q . : Well, be; thatp as'i it joay/ ^it11:is all" those .that recprdec ' ;\ , \a \ 1 Vi c i_^ ^ n the lab. results, I counted;108 and your.counting certainly coulc be,/as good as mine, .that's .neither- here nor there* ,The second column shows the symptoms,- have you" had occasion to add up the-.nuinber of people that .reported one or: mor, of these dioxin type, symptoms, Dr. Rousch?;\-i. ' i:, V \ A \.'- Yes,'-'sir. / . ' . , 'r'\ " Q '/ And it's 83, i s n 't jt, sir?L , :' " , i 1 A' ' I-doii't recall.- 1 `; v . " Q ^ `-We_ll-, t h a t ',,s w'hat,v*l i d d'e d up; th'at th'er'je-is 83. -'' ' .A If you add them,'a l l of the symptoms .together, it comes, out/ to- 83 : ` , r..v\t , Q :83 .persons having one,or .more of these symptoms as., reported to. br, Suskind. :j ; , , .. . 'A . Yes,'sir;, - v . j.. / ' -' ' - 1 Q And Doctor, S3 is ..77 percent of the 108. , You can take 2 my word for that, I did .that'.on a calculator, is it not, sir? 3 A T h a t 1s about right. * * -, , 4 Q , So if -this summary is correct, it means that more thar three-fourths of your workers i n the chlorinated phenol departirte 5 S ` . *1* ' , ' T 6 at Krummrich plaht.had; one~pr more of symptoms and so reported 7 to Dr. Suskind that can be .associated-with dioxin poisoning, P- - F . . I r ,, - -1 1 ~r L * 8 isn't, that correct^'s i fF * **p r ?y,1 't .^ ' . ' : ; ( -% 9 MR. HEINEMAN: v Objeqtion* your Honor.' Well/ perhaps 10 if I-- did he say of anyone that ever worked i n the plant or 11 produced i n the study? , 12 1 MR. CARR: These tha^t arq reported here, counsel, 13 as you know. r 14 THE COURT: Objection is ^overruled. You may continue< 15 Q Isn't that correct, d o c t o r ? 16 A Yes> sir. , , * ' 17 Q Now Doctor, D r . Suskind asked those questions, the 18 only questions asked on current status, on current;health. * 19 status, he asked those seven .questions for a scientific purpose- 20 didn't he, sir? 21 .A Yes, s i r . ... 22 ,Q And he is the one tiiat designs those questions as 23 he designed this entire study .thatiis associated with or to be 24 the health status study for .people exposed to dioxin,, isn't that correct, sir? I j 2 A Yes, sir. v ,, Q Sir? 3 . *,, , A Yes, sir. . , ' ' , 4 Q Now; do you not believe/that it is significant that 5 *' J% p` * t * 6 the man that asks the questions, he .is the one that said these f" ' i` < . , j1 d' j are the symptoms- that I^am going,to inquire of, these are the 7 8 things that I consider important and for to have, results that h t ' 4li i >41 i 4%v1 ,\ ir/ > } . rr 9 show here that show 77 percent of the people. Now, some of 10 these people, Doctor, haven't .worked in--well, strike that. You 11 know that some of these people "haven *t worked in the .chlorinated 12 phenol department for years, you.know that, d o n 't you, sir? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q S o m e .of these people hadexposure in the; only in the 15 60s and 70s, or some of them in the 50s .and were transferred 16 to other departments and were not currently exposed oh a daily 17 basis in *79 to that which was produced in Department 237, isn*t 18 that correct,-sir? 19 A X don't know. that. ,, 20 Q But you know, that from the nature of these questionnai]): 21 don't you, sir? / * 22 A Some of them. J didn't go through to find out how 23 long they had been o u t 24 Q That's the only thing you're quarreling with is how 1 long they had been not in the chlorinated phenol department, is that correct, 2 sir? - 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q But now Doctor, for 83 Krummrich plant workers, 77 percent of 5 the people that took part in this study and had laboratory exams as well 6 and asked by a scientist to find that there is a positive relationship in '7 77 percent of the people, isn't that significant, Doctor, to a scientist? 8 A No, sir. 9 Q Wouldn't there be statistical significance to the fact that 77 10 percent of your workers have one or more of these abnormalities, these 11 symptoms? 12 A No, sir. .. 13 Q Doctor, he asked the question for a purpose, he didn't ask it 14 idly, did he, sir? 15 A I can't tell. j ` 16 Q Doctor* didn't we just'establish that he asked it for the purpose 17 of determining the posoiblef;`effects', health-effects by exposure to dioxin, - 18 didn't we just establish that a few minutes ago? 19 A No, Sir. ; ;j ,, * . ' 20 Q Doctor, wasn't this study for the purpose of determining the 21 health status of these people that are employees of this plant have been 22 exposed to these .chlorinated phenols? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And didn't he ask these questions in order to determine that 1 health; statua? 2 A No, sir, 1 Q Then why did you ask these questions, Doctor? 4 A That's a typical medicine question. 5 Q Well, no, he picked out, ,,he designed these questions, he dldn't - 6 ask did you have a pain In the side, he didn't ask do you have a backache, k .7 he didn't ask a number of questions that are typical questions, he designed 8 these, he took these six questions because they were the only questions 9 asked about your current health condition, isn't that right, sir? 10 A t Yes, sir. .' ,, 11 Q - Of all the questions asked these people, only six related to 12 their current health condition, isn't that.right, sir? 13 A Yes, sir.* - % , ^ . -, ; w w i . ;, ' * ,, 14 i \ Q And these' six were as reported in, as .described in this document', 15 these symptoms reported, weren't "they, sir? ^ 16 A Yes, sir. ' ` ` 17 Q Then he's,not asking I*1 l n general,;he wants it because he consider 18 it to be Important or to shed.some light on their health status, isn't he 19 asking it for that, reason, Doctor? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q Now, he finds that 77 percent respond positively to those questions 22 but he didn't make one single mention of it, .does he, sir? 23 A No, sir. 24 Q Doctor, if you were to find that 77 percent had signs, symptoms of 1 dioxin poisoning9 wouldn't you consider it important that 77 percent of 2 your workers have .got symptoms of dioxin poisoning, why don' t you consider 3 that important, sir? 4 rA You can't make a diagnosis of dioxin poisoning!-- 5 Q Doctor, I'm not asking you to make a diagnosis, that's what 6 Dr. Susklnd was going to do with his lab test reports with his physical 7 examination and with the symptomatology and with the records and everything 8 else. I'm not asking to make a diagnosis just on that. What I am asklng^ ? you is wouldn't you consider it Important that 77 percent of your employees 10 had symptoms of dioxin poisoning? 11 A No, sir. 4 T, 12 Q Doctor, isn't it important to you.that your Krummrich plant .'* 't 1\ , ... , v _ ' . t .1i' i A ' 13 workers, 77 percent have one or more of*theseJsymptoms of dioxin poisoning? '( i C. . 1 ,r * ' ' - . -J A 14 A No, sir. 15 Q Why isn't that.important^to you Doctor? Don't you care about ,- -l 16 their health? f 'I i.''J r ta 'r * 17 A .Eighty percent of the general population complains of headaches 18 alone, so 77 percent, just a headache would take care of the 77. 19 Q But Doctor, did you see where it was one or more? If it was 20 just a headache, there would just be one checkmark there, wouldn't there, 21 sir? 22 ,A^ Yes, sir. 23 Q There is only 26 that have only one checkmark, and that's not 24 necessarily the headache. I'm not representing that it is. There's only rK 1 26 out of 108 that have only one symptom. 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q Now, that means there are 66 that have more than one symptom or 4 thereabouts, my addition and subtraction may be wrong.' And Doctor, the 5 headache question was asked by Dr. Suskind? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q Because he knows that it.Is commonly reported by people who have 8 exposure to dioxin that they get headaches on a chronic, long-term basis, 9 either on a dally or weekly basis, you know that, don't you, sir? 10 A No, sir. '. 11 Q You don't know that? 12 A No, sir. . ; / ' 13 Q Why do you think Dr. Suskind asked that question then, If he 14 didn't know that? J - !'V . ; ' - 15 A X don't know why Dr.-- what Dr. Suskind was going to do with that 16 history. : J ' ;i'i - . - * 17 Q 'Dr. Rausch, you knew Dr..Suskind was asking these questions 18 because he was studying whether or not there was a relationship between 19 the exposure and their health, he so states, doesn't he, sir? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q And that's the reason he.asks the questions, Isn't that right, 22 sir? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q Now, Doctor, he could have asked any questions, and he could 108 r have put as/Wny< questions in'here as he wanted, but he selected these t' , r*-y -. * \r - **n ^ .- ' 'J.rS- : ", J *r ?; ' seven people, didn't he, sir?" V ;;, . 3 A Tes,'sir.- v- 4 1 -- Q Arid he had; reported, to-him'the sleep difficulty, 'the fatigue, s"1 the poor appetite, and the neurobehavioral problems, hasn't he'; sir? 6'' Yes,'''Sir,' V' y '\ ,"* , -k . - Q- And he doesn't make.one Mention of it;in his 'report, 'does he, \ TV. 8 9* `sir? . ' ! , . ' V. * j' 1 ^-J ^ / - '"l *- 1* < A j( No, sir, . ',-y.V `y.- , '* ' ' i J *1*L, S, - '' , L ' ^ I. " \^ '* y - y '' * ,+ *' * ^ J ' . i M~ ; ; . '* ^ 10 7 *' Q Nowydid he consider that', do you think he.considered that 77 v , . , . ; l`5*- J- r J - f- ' j - J-* . `'i ' . - = S' . , ir percent wasn't a -largefigurera, large '`statistic;; do you ''"' . y( ^ <v-- y y v*;Vycif'(yt...?--,;- y\v1'-j.\.yc-- yy>>y,.av'>,? '-V V vi . thought it should*1be 100 percent? ' think maybe he ' ,\ 13 A No sir,"^ .-.'Vi, V' v;v / ' -J':v J > -V 7 'i :y ` I . <"7 v V. - y ' 14 J- Q . Well,, it- is,<if.that, if!these re the dioxin symptoms ot ehlorinat ed> ; -r - " -fK; v y v V- ?r"ty ' 15- phenol exposure symptoms<and-80;designed, the questions designedly 16 , Dr. Suskind to' reveal that, then the answers to those questions become 1 7 ' important, don't .they,/sir? .5 '. ' .'* - '" V V . ' 1 18 . - A Possibly important. ' - v, ' >- 19 Z. Q And to-have 83 out of 08,' with one or more of these, .symptoms, 20 that becomes important, doesn't it, 'sir? n - V r j j J.:' ` r. 1 ' - 21. ' .A .'No,'sir;. ^ ' . ... ,: ; . ;\ 22 ; ' ; ./' r - -: / -` : - ' :Q; -Now; Doctor, why ask;;the ,,question if .it's not important? , 23 : A- . It's medical approach to try. to decide whether .there is a'. 24 problem, 'r *. " ` -,v \r ; - f - y' V v v 109 1" ^ Q And he doesn't make any decision on that, does he, sir? 1 >v .A,,, ' He couldn't. ' ' - ""'r'' > 'V.,^ . ' .3' : ; q / sir? _ '', . ; ;' ; " -* . . `4 ,v 5 . jr .A\ He couldn't. ,j r , . '1. JT `Vr* ' * ..'' * '1 - . L . . .^. * '. J *r ** r . J. 1 , ^ -rJ t ' ' . * r . \ Q What do you mean he couldn't?. He could do exactly the same thing 6 I did,, or my nurse did, can he not? ' 1 - ''Z' , '"r ' * -r/ 1 ` ' J'' ' 7 A '.When.a physician looks at that, he looks at It differently than , "8 __- J 'V L V `9 m a nurse-would look at it. 1 .V. - Q For a diagnosis, but not .for a study.. He made, these questions, ,, 10 1! f 12 / i ` ^ fit i - 't , y>^ v 0/ .: . he asked these questions, because'h^was Interested In the answers.beecause - . J'V 'V, j'-.' r'i'tLriv M.- `t>' r < ' 4, !*->b.V <*' *'/, ' '*' r "``r v ,r \ , he thought the answers would be .relevant to their health, didn't he, sir? t vr- J v<- ` i \* ij-.i i ov , A Possibly.relevant. .J CV> '-.t. *r`4 '^ ` ** - 13 *14 Q And he got responses? l '/ A L VYeasn, *>.<i :t *, ' / 'I sirw. ?' V * f' i ir *f f*r '4ti ->r'.iwi ' / v !.,> 1..r" v c V > v ' \1 .. ._ - ^ -. f '* ; ..is, Q Of possibly relevantvthings? ' Id `-..A '`.Yes, sir.-,. '.V .i , 17 ` j* Q Now,ifitwereallnegative, if you didn't have these problems, f* 18\ don't you think.he would have reported none' of .these people or a very 19 2 ; small percentage'of these people had. any symptoms of problems ,that are ` -- r - ' - 11 . , r i ' - 4p "-r - j r V , .' _ r,, J i ^" j ^ associated with dioxin exposure, 'don't you. think he would have said that, 'sli|? 2|- J ,L, * - v, J- A rIt couldn't happen that way. ! '" ' 'J ' ' t '; ' ^a r J ,` ' r ' , fi" " ^> ; .2 2 . . Q - .It couldn't be negative?.. 1 L' '- rl* ^ -v ' ** v -r,, \ r-^ j" #' ' ^ j* **23 A These are'nonspecific questions.% v 24, ;r Q 'Doctor, why did. he ask the questions if he is^not Interested in A4  :* i. . their health? 2 ': V . A He\wasf tryingto seewhat the results of that would he. 3 : Q* And he found out .what it^would be, didn't he", sir? ' * ' 'I* 'r4 ` , ' A-.' Yes, sir; / r '/ ;\ v- * / , ^ "r 'J t _F - ,J '; , ;v` Vk 5 Q He, found put thatJ77: perent were positive, didn't .he; sir? 6 '* A 7 ,"Q Tea1 -isir' ;' t ,L- ' r^ / , *- ,, ` 'J'J ` ' *^ "V *. -i, : `,1\ And he didn't use it, d!4 he, sir? ; -T ,"V'1 . - 'V V 8 '; A ' Nor j woi'juld^ I." * ri ; ... j - ~ ." , t '. , ` 9 Q l j b : ` ; 'A Doctor'he;didn't-use it, did'he;' sir? * 1- t'l V "> 7 1 ' * - / * S - i ' , ( ? v r S' / ,,1 J-jf'2----% }r 1'r>V,, i*A^ f :, **n ,,, w -fJ i-i: J* t ?*, P A ,K \ ' 1 No,- sir- / v. -" .- * - *V ^ ,, \ V" `"j , "v r r r ' '* .. / u : \ ; Q, 12 he, sir? And h didn' t^even.mentiqn^ any'.:rea8on .why he didn't use. it, did : 'J- - } ^ -, -' ,yi\ , 1 f (i vV.; ' ` -1 J * r " 1 - V ^ " . - :1 ' J' , - n .; . * ' 1* _U ; f - s--< > - ' > ;' * . y* /^'V. < n-Ai' y ; ;';Cj \ 13 J r ; a No, sir. -A i V 'A V T t y -;>V - A V^r - : 14',J < ;*; q : He didn't say that it wag.unimportant, did he,'sir? ,,''y- --' 15 a No, sir* V';-'..' 16' Q He didn't say that h couldn't draw any conclusions from it,t ^ ^ y 4 ' * ' ^I ' 17 18 , did he; sir? .' / ' * C'., ,1`*V ;/ 'JA' No, sir'* ; ' . ' * ' w ' rr, l" *""*,,. ^^ .'yv, : .. . v 1 - _i 19; : y : q / And:h e ,Just completely ignored it, didn't'he? J 20'[ v; - a .' No;; .sir...y ,_ ,.;r 1A ; ' ,, `L . -';v - -r 21 , ^ Q Oh? Where-did he make any mention of it'in his report? f 22 . , ./a : H didn't put it inthersport, but that didn't mean he didn't 23; ^ ' look .at I-t-; '^7 ,^. _v . ^ , L'K 24 Q I'asked, you whether or. not he ignored it. I know he looked at it, 1 , , A ' ,r '! *f Viff V ' J- Y *Vt' , J Y j-v' Y ; '* . 7-; ,^ >. , t > - 2i: ' /. ; / Z J : /"*_'[ :r: ` ` . '. - ^ *,X kn' ow that he t *addedT it *up^ , I_ know* ' * he^, d*i*d' *exactly/ the r same t thing t that I did arid you can do i you can-look at those reports and look at those symptoms . 3 and see 77 percent symptomatology.' -, ir "j ". 7 _t' _s r } . * ' 4 . . ' A .Yes,'"sir. * '-Y'J '" \ J' r- *AvV. >> ` .*1 ~ *J, r r ^ t - ' 'r^ * i ' j Y- 7 5 v Q He saw this and he decided to.ignore that result, didn't he, sir?' / '. ,, ` 6v- Y Y / . f Y No, sir. ; Y Y ^ ... Y ;Y" \ 7 ' 7.- ^ Q Did he make any mention" q f it in. his final report^,-Dry Rousch?^ ,. Y \ 8 ' . -A That's not 'his final^report, ': -i:> . '' \ ' 1 ' ^ }v. i-'{ z; \ f . - 9 10. j v C Q- Dr. Rous eh ,f.w'wnt" through^ that, it was his .finai' report .up .until ;V'mid . .' June ' ' 1 of. , 1 9 ., ;8 5 , . -. wash !t -Cr : . -it? 3 ` A' --. . ` ,' iv-- ^ ;> v- ' ` [ :/v .r -} ` , -1j; T' *:- 1 ' : - ^ 1 ' ' 1.^-7' L- / ' ' ~. ' / r . * r- ii 7 \ A ; 'Yes, sir. : " ' 7 v " '"'Y V /- " ' ' Y: 7 ' 12 ; : Q Now, Doctor,.'did he ' make^any ; mention of - these symptomatology in ' . ' 13. his report? . . ^ 14- ' A'. .-No, sir;r,<.; ; / 7 r"; ,.; L.,;. / ,* J' ` -* ^. ;. Y 15;1 '' , Q Do you think he owes the .men at Krummrich an explanation of why , 7 , . . ' / - * .. ' . - \ - 1' , `' *oa 16 j he asked the question,-got the answers to his questions, and then decided 3o ; Pm 2J 17 to ignore the answers to the questions' ?/ . J- - 7.';Z.. 1 18 '1 A ' ., I 'r don't^know; r '. ' ' " - `>- / z ' 1- '"-L1z y ' r ,- ' 7C? ,r>v1 ^` > ' i* ZY la ' . F1*9 \ di v<zl:asi , 2 0 , ' 21 Q ; You don't :know whether or not he owes them an'explanation? ' A If hew'ere. asked, y e s . . ,, y ` v Y 'j Q ' Now, Doctor, he asked the question to'; see if there was a ** A 1 m 1 " j M, m * ' * 1 . rj22-^ correlation between working, in th chlorinated-phenol department a n d 1these : k ` 23 1 synq),tmatlogy, did he ,notti -r / ' J ,. ^' : . 24 ; . , . A,' Y'es i .sir.. r, . ^ ^. - ' L', -* , .' -' 1z ' . lJ r"1 . * ` ' ' * . . ` '- j . - ' --r . '^ ' J BAYONNE, N.J. 07002 FOAM ' l l 24 B ; 3 V \ * Y - ...su;; 112 , ^i1 1- 1 ' Q \:And he found-,thattherwas a'correlation, didnft he, sl'r? \2V-, ,/y :'rA No, .sir; . 'V, [" \ l : , '' ` . ' ' '* , .3 _Q Isn't'there acorrelation, Doctor, between, these 77 percent of -. 4 the people that, got it and"their exposure to' chlorinated phenols? /' ' : ^ ` .. 'J " 5 A- 'No, sir. -* ; k , V `\ , ;' 6; ' Q -, Aren11 these all'these people exposed to chlorinated phenols and potentially exposed to ..dioxin?... ** \ |V '-7 ^ , * . Xy\'\y' ' \ '8 \ A / Not :if they- work in" 236l'. ,- ' . * -, .. < -- " -j y X \ ,[ V 9V -Q > ' .* Doctor, we-just, went through that.", Ivjust cannot go through th' \ \ --V' ' - ;Y*, sY* * 'Y ,`i, ; - - `r Jl . 10.'. same thing over and over 'again', '^Dbh't you' recall^ we had this list of 11 - those, this is the^ exhibit just; before this 'one; or during the course of ' r ;r :J J i l ; '-'A-' > V : rU Y L - ' '.y ^ * -- j*^ :,\2 ` this one, the list', -you have it in front of you somewhere, those people '* 13 ' with potential exposure to dioxin. *r % .14: ' through that? Do you recall that,' sir,'that we went t, . Y, * j ' v.' 15 A*` Yes",rsir. - . . ^ . Y .; Y'v Y - " '16. :Q And included all these people :ih .236; didn't we,, sir? - ' ' j '17. ' 18 a Yes. ;' Y -- ; y < : ,, * ** -rk t ' " V* , r ^ i Q Now, Doctor, there,is a correlation then between exposure to . 19 chlorinated phenols,Lthe possible exposure of dioxin-and these symptoms, 2P> - isn't there,' sir?- ' / 21 , A 'No,.sir. fi' .` : . :^\V' J ' r "'. j . * \ y ' \ ' 22.. '23 ^ -24 . Q Doesn't 83.correlate well'with 108 exposed? ' ,' * K, r t > ., ^^ A If 80 r ,,*p'rercent ,of normal .population '*,,*'*+ 'hJ ad , headaches" '1 r i -i Q Excuse :me,.Doctor, ,doesn' t 83 out of 108, isn't that a pretty' good P E N G AD C O ,. B A Y O N N E , N ,J, /. / / , / " :v -* ' ; 1 ' j / / ;^ . . 1 113 correlation? //' ^ ' "v '7 '/ /- r"' '_ ; - / / / ;v'; '- J: ../ :A/ N; sir.' r jV - ^ / //./- -- //-' 7 -: ,/ . - '?<' - . , J - 1 - >-y ' ,Vi , , v, t. 3. ,, , / y Q .,1 What do you need,: 108 but of 108 for it, t o b a good correlation? 3 ," -A A No, sir. "V/ y- y ; * - n 4 > j ^, 1 t - - - y * ' ,r ` ' - "r . f !* -/ / ' " Q"-s, \ 6./ ' *A / ,- .- ' ,-,';Q. ' 7` v. Huh? > J /- ' ` [... , , ' - . '. ; > . rj< x v''V , ` No,-' sir. - '' ` ^ '1 --, ' ,t- "// - r-, - V -- v"7 n \-* f -v ' ' ,/'/ J- '- , v ^ ; v . y / v//-/ / i /f/;.. -yy. : How many'do ;yo need ;hying headaches before you find there is :. - ' i.ZZjr l-jr- U u- / ' / /v _ . 1 j -- , ' i 8 - ^Q a'correlation? ;How, many do you need with neurohehavioral problems? How ' r: : ;r :tJ S >v ' if *'4' } v V > . v-- ^ a- i. ;*- ,. - many:do you need with sleep difficulty?. How many do you need with fatigue M'r, _ , ,,J v_ - ^ . f 10 ,, - 1 1 r:12 ' 1 l3 before you * find 'w rth'er".e1'?ivs`;.ac1orrl.ait"i;o1n, Dr. RousCh? f,* ? / ' ", -r " ' , r" , ru i P V> ***.*'i ; ?' 1^ ) ,, - . V1 / ;lrJ A ItTs got to be above ejected. /-\ , ` >\ ' ''J ,LJ. ' J 1,.-`r ' `V^ -- ...''-'Vs- ' . tu-j ' L ,. ` ' ' l .. ' ' .1 -` . .. t ^ --. j Q And what. .Is expected, Doctor, of these symptoms? 'ri - , V J t -'/ , ./ r / v , ^ A I told , you, one of thm^was headache-- /' . : - _ . " , 'J" ` - _- -S , r' . ' ' ; 14 - ^ Q . . Well, 1what about ftigue.and sleep difficulty? r ,/ ^: BAYO N N E, N .J. 07001 FO RM . IL 14 B :1 1i. fc L so A- Sleep-difficulty., at least 20 percent of the population- and ` .1 5 . 16- maybe all of, the- normal population has some complaint-'of' sleep difficulty. 1* Something of the order of -10, .15. percent of.the people wtio-have sleep 1 l'Tl- " 18 . difficulty take medication.'; So there were 20-people who hd sleep difficulty. kZZl > 2. .19' -. Q rDoctor, let's stop one moment, and.be fair on^this. You're talking O :< -'p L 4 r ", .j20'i, * about people who are-ili, who- donrt work, you are-not talking about a'plant >u r ", / 21 population; '; r." V _- \ |V /*' ; - , ' " T / s-./ y v -^ ' ,/ '\ \ 22 ; .A I'm talking about normal ^people. \ ' 23 Q r You're talking about allythe population, you're not'talking about - / H'j*24 _' normal people/ . " ... J - - 'r.,i ,*-j`^7 -' > * / -.PJ /1 *;^ ' r-- L t ,* *v*'-rm>! K.-,*- '," `L-\^.'t,v-t`-." *** ' .. * 114 .7 -a Yes, I-am talking' about normal people. 1 1 - rt t * a ' b -* y. * ^ , : 9 .You are not talkingabout sick people as.well? T f1 A ;No, sir." * 3 7^ J ' , They are not includedln,that.group? 4 '5 6; r ! 1A `No,- air. * .^ JA. . V7 I " " fj*. y v. / j i\i . ,< '\ ~ * Y - .Q You are saying: 10 percent or what percent? - Vi.'j ^ f H ' . os-"' V. "ai7 . :. .,v 7-A v Ten percent of. people taking medication for sleepy V; ,- J '1,'y 7 v :( ^ ` V',- ' * ,8 - Q . Ten percent of^normal'healthyvpeople^take medication for sleep? n v.;, v V* '`7 v C 7 ' ^ "'. 7 A Yes, sir. -.77' - * . ' \ v7- - 9 J ;77 7 ' r'/ i fi "'1/r'`.itv5-, '- ''?i'',?J " \ i /' J'' k-J;''-v;.^ `` '.Q J And'Doctor, .where do you "find that'recorded? 10 ,, ,> 7 -" 7 11 J2;'' .r *A"., ,*A' X- ;' 'think it's, McBride^ 's Signs, and Sympt^oms, 1983. Vr / J . . L11 . 1 ' l ' J *' * 'V ' V ^ 7 r- Q ,.And it was of a. random selection? _^ ,7 " _c 1 A ' Normalpopulation,people who,come in without any.other complaint 13 'V, .k- ;` 1v. will complain of, headaches, I mean;, complain Of difficulty sleeping. 14 - .Q And what about the fatlgye, sir? 15" ,- I6 it :,'A;`- The etatement that!s by the same, author says'most .people will , cotnplain of fatigue. . .17 . ' r `.r``" Q And what about the poor appetite?- . 18 19 ..'A/^r-'* On 'tJ,he p-oor` * appJ~er' ti,!te*, ' a- b^out ''H*alf of LtheI- se-peJople`comm-pirlaining lol f >-, -'*?/ * - * : ' " V . B | " /_' ' 20 poor-appetite here were overweight* / .^ ^ ^ ... ' U ` Doctor, what about; poor* appetite? ; '.V 21 r-"' " _y - r *i '"i ^ ^" "* 1^ ^ j ''A ' j * _ ^ ,. ^ L_ ^ ^ 22 \ A . I don*t have a number on'that-because it's ,hard to describe. ' , j- ' . 1 ^ ^ r Jc \ ' ' 1T ^ / - - - r * .V 23 ' _UQ F What-about the neurobehavioral? , -! - V ^ ** I r, . J" ' ir1" 24.' A Couldn't; find anything op neurobehavioral either,-but five people - 'Sr" ^ \ . PEN GAD CO.. BAYONNE, N.JL /4 / A 115 1 1 . complained of both/temper and anger together. , - ... .:z * it , V 3\ A 1' ` nd.howmany .L' r, L' complained 'about ; ^l'SirLL r. r`` one or, the. other? 'J "^ L>" ' J L LJ , A ' r^- ' V-- , '/ ' 1- ' "' - ' 'A ' A large number, but if/you don't have one,* you can't have anger 4' . .without a temper, and-a lot of,,them complained of anger without a temper. ,5.L-, . Q. Doctor, the questions that were asked in.that regard were, "Do you 6 V lose your temper easily7M and "Do you feel angry often?1/ There is .a-' 7'-;; distinction between those' questions, and it.was-designed,the questions ;8 - * were asked with that distinction in mind, isn't'that`.correct,`sir? 9 `A o, sir, I don't believe.;so. V J. i* 10 rQ ,l; ` Then what Suslcind did wasjust ask two questions that meant the * '__ "A" * y r '^ , : -^ . 1 .> 1 n. u same, thing*- / - " r " '. r ' . -- v A ' ' r ,' ^ ' / A' -A . _ r . .- * . '1 : > - 12r. A Yes,;sir, On purpose*,/; . \ " r. 13 Q And heJ did it on purpose? ; :fj ' ; 14 ;A I would suspect s o I cap't speak for him.-. ,J , 15 * ' ,Q,, .Doctor; why did you say he did it on,purpose if you are simply^ )6 suspecting? - Did you talk it over .with him? /, , 1 17 -A LNo, sir*/ . / iv _ -- ' A--/ A A* - 18 Q Didn't you see' these questionnaires before they ever went out,, , >19 or at the same time they were sent out? . ' 20 A No, dir;/ .. ; ;,/ >\t ;.:v.;.5 r ;v,, -v A- ..>! v y ` ''>. ,, -, 21- . V`J 'Q ' Doctor, ne sent you the sample questionnaire and th letter that' ' f./";-'1-\ *1 1`" *- 'r -' r~ 22. . he was going to send out'by youv I\mean'^our medical department, before it 23 was ever1.sent out, didn't he, sir? 24, ' A X don't, recall. 1 V V' . *VV r ;.< f %K'4 '. t 116 1 2. - 1 3; 4 -5 Q Well-, Doctor, you had people that discussed it with him that went: over the Questionnaire; did you not,-sir? . '/ 4 ' ' ', ... A I don't'think so.// ./V / ' ' ' ~/ `4 Q V .Then what you're saying1then that he just asked the questions, these two questions,, for no .good or valid reason? r*f.> -'A. . NO, sir. / "X ; ' '// ' .' . \ Q j -Well, what did he ask lt^for?, ( L/ /-- - \k*/-- / ;7 -8 . , , " A You. will have to ask him. ;1 -/ . / ' - *^ , *( . ' r ' ''J- , *. 1 *- -- > ,,p _ .m * *"1p1 J *T / -.-r f 9. Q Doctor, as far ,as you're ^concerned,/there was no good and, valid reason to ask these two questions, yds there,' sir? 1 ,10 , /, A; It has some vale', not much, . ` .-r. - " ' fi / 2 -- / Q / And'their equivalent to gay you feel/angry roftenis the same ' ; thing as to say you`lose your temper, easily? . 13 r .14'.. [ :'k 1 Yes. </_ ;t -< ' 15 ,, s 16 , 1 A person can feel angry often*without ever losing his temper. w\k-J\ I don' t know what he means by losing'temper and don't get angry./ 17.j/ ^> Doctor/ if you. don',t;.know what it means,'why are you saying they . re the same?/./ , * //''; /' './ ./ .r-/ ` 18 i - ` '/ - -. A . That's^vwhait* we, iin,medbicine do. - uv'^' / >\ - ./ * ,, /'i . " 20 /. .> Q , Doctpt;, you.ar sayingjthey/are the same? / , ^ J 21, "To-'me they-are'. -`/;./ , ./- r '///-'. ' / ' ' . *.y. /. ; / ' , ; 22 - ': .. Q ;, But now I;just gotvthrough'asking'ydu, Doctor, can you-not feel, 23 ` an g.r.y rof' ten a' nd -n, e, v'e&r/tl-os^ e; yourrV t*e-"mrpfer ?.f That* 1is, 'you h' ave the ability, you 24- / may feel anger,.but.you have the ability to control it, you don't lose your r \ yu' <*; *; `*V i *, B A YO N N E, NJ, 117 1 I 'temper easily,, you control-it, you;can feel angry and not lose yourLtemper, .-7 \ -can you not; Air?: l" v ;f 3.'- ' : A' , -Yes^ eir.J ' ;r v. ' ^ 4*; v Q/ So there is a difference,between those two. questions, isn't there, ` X *' - . V *v * -V ' - - 5., sir? r; "r*/ , /' '-- ; \ ' 6 . / ^ A That's where the-judgment comes, * lt - , J v.' > 7 -,`y* Q . ' There, is difference, isn't there, sir?.-' /- . 8 ` - A-.'' Yes., ``V ' ; V - ' /; ; % -y. - ' y ' SL y Q 'And he asked, the questipnbcause h 'designed the* study and he V' - " L i ^ . n,. , , *'' : y y' - i '* "J r , F , r, 10 wanted-to find out a diffrence," didn't.he, .sir? ' -. - 11 . A Yes,1 sir. - , /- ` *- -^ '-''.V v .` L 'lf>V 1-.^ r' ' - 1 . . ^ ,1 12 Q ; And he also ashed.the question about the -tired most of the time, 13 . land do you need more'sleep than 'usual. H asked those questions .for a 14 . reason;' J, ' '*r;,v 1 +.y\.. ' *k ' ' * _> ~ * 15. ./ A Ye,. sir. ' ,r* / '-' \ '.y,, '; ', .16 Q.. .And .those-two questions t^ tied .with fatigue, aren't they, sir? - -17 A* , Sometimes* - *--f'1+`*-.-y" \ .y / .18- Q If you are vtired;most: vof,,th .time, you' generally need mote sleep l 'vi !v > ,r'' '* - 1 ; / y \ ' ' 'y " ' 19; than usual, , dpn^ --;U . V you,;ir?''* --- */ 1 ^ '>ii 1 . i - : ' * . 20 21. 22 A."' rNot necehsarily. : (y \r_; 'C) r > - . v '.' I ' , r. t;mT,it ;\JW, VVt'.-'^'^^ ,* '^'t * J ' <} ,V'.rA ^ Not necessarily, but you.usually do. *A .r Wn* *--Poi+irr*.'i!?.*."Xij.\ 'r1'*c ri*v'y5c-- .?'.'l';. i', . ,vu :1rwy* >- V:-*' - ' '' n .^ - . ,,23; *24'r Q -.No, sir?;- Nell,:then again he asked these questions for a purpose, f *J JJ- i- - -v ^ ' i_" . r ^ . i^ didn't he; sir?' FORM IL\2 B A Yes 1 Q Now, and he also asked a ,,question about trouble sleeping for a 2- purpose, didn't he, sir? 3 A Yes, sir. 4 Q But he makes no mention of those, any of those problems, does he, 5> 6 sir? V A No, sir. 7 `^ 8 Q And he doesn't say, well, they have the some problems as the rest of the United States population, does he, sir? 9 10 A No, sir.- w 11 Q . Now, don't you reckon that if he found that that is the conclusion that because he's being paid, by Monsanto and Monsanto .has a financial stake 12' in showing that dioxin doesn't cause these problems, don't you reckon that 13 he would have stated it if he found that to be the case? 14 A No, sir, 15 Q Now, Doctor, Monsanto dope have a financial stake In the question 16 of health related to .dioxin, doesn't it? 17 ,,r 18' A Yes 1? Q And it is an Important financial stake, isn't it, Doctor? 20 A Idoh'tkhow. * 21 Q You don't know that?itIs ;an.important financial stake? t j 't .- V ; * J! 1 22 A I don't know how important it is. 23 Q I didn't ask you how important,, 1 just asked you if it was an 24 important financial stake *. " L A* -Yes, ..1 Q i: ndDctr, i f b y these studies you can, show that there are no 3 health problems related- to the*exposure .to dioxin;* that-is *important to 4 Monsanto from .financial.-viewpoint isn't it, sir? ^ . . *' ,A- I don't know,. . 's , -V ., t ' ' > * *_ Jr' ' .' 6 V Q * Haven't you seen memos, sir, in which it is so* described?. *' J ,A ; This has1never'been' publicised*. /V' :- . "7J': ^ 8 > Q -' Sir?. - , k` ` 'v ^ . * u :\ V' A" , This has never been publicized, ^1 . Qv Doctor, ,I'm not asking you about;that,.. I'm asking you if you have 10 ,,\ \ 11 " ever seen memos to; the effect`that it's important .to Monsanto from'a v financial interest that you want protection from1litigation, and that that's 12. 13 the reason* these'studies are important, - * ; " * 14r : A I; don't .recall, ^V , r` ' * 15::/ / : (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1508 was marked for identification*) 16 'V;'. :- THE'COURT: Any objection? x ' ; f * a'.\v - "/'< ,.,/r v ` 7 '^ riv-' . ' , ' ,*'* s `4 *. , '1 ,. . . ^ 1 j - i. r . i ' j ; ' ' 1. ^ ' f ' f ,, .. -\ 17 , , ` .. -. . ' MR., HE^IfN'E1MA,N*.*-4 ' Oh, has-it^been offered ,\yourHonor? \J i,* f ^ ; ,- ' * ii''r V -' ,L u* i -- 18 ,V r * '- MR* . CARR:. ` -T: I.haven't .offered^it ' .. iv . '- ; .y4 e - t I 'm > waiting -for you* to - .* quit. , \ \ C; ** w i. *Y 1? looking at: it so I;?can show it toVthe witness 'and. then offer it, vV <. , 1i ^ ij 4j 1 i. ^J , . > i ^ ^.- ` * ` ^ 20 'j , - 1 Q . - iDoc' i,t**oSi.r,*. * I'i,i!.114'1v.''hanVi dL:y/o*u* EVx,^h.`ji. ib' i, 't'.-*1i5-jJ08>V, wii Do you t 'rec. og' npip z*e t.hat; aj s< '<t ' 21 a memo dealing with the Krummrlch study program that you are;planning to 22 undertake with ^Northwestern, have, you* got copy of that memo? )J 1 23 , A f Yes, sir * . .;* r'' . ** 24- ^ Q And just turn to the second page. Does nti that memo discuss J * t^m ,1 i ./-i ^ ' r t i i* u f s. ? Tr, ^ i 1 that you want, one of the purposes for it is to protect Monsanto's financial 2 interests against unwanted litigation-- 3 MR HEINEMAN: Excuse me, your Honor, is it being offered now? 4 MR. CARR: No, counsel. 5 MR. HEINEMAN: You are not offering it into evidence? 6 MR. CARR: No, LI'm not. ,, ^ 7 8 Honor. MR. HEINEMAN: Weil, I'll object to any testimony about it, your 9 MR. CARR: Well, I'll offer it if he is going to object to it, 10 not that it's going to make any difference! 11 THE COURT: Any objection?1 _ 12 MR. HEINEMAN:- No objection. 13 THE COURT: Admitted without objection. 14 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1508 was admitted into evidence.) 15 Q Doctor, does it not state that one of the purposes of the 16 Northwestern study that you are going to have is to protect Monsanto's ;V `* 1 - 1 * 1 '*: 17 financial Interests against unwanted litigation? * 1 ^ j ,, ,* i * 18 A -Yes, sir. t :: ,* ** ,- 19 Q Now,1 does that refresh your recollection that that's one of the 20 purposes of health studies? J 21 MR. HEINEMAN: You're talking,about the Northwestern health studied 22 MR. CARR: No, counsel. ,, 23 MR, HEINEMAN: That's what that's talking about, isn't it? 24 MR. CARR: I understand that, counsel. *121 l " -i V" " * n"* j.ri . Q What isthe answer to ny question? / I r ;; ., : ; ,- , i "' r j^ j * Xr 3 . A The .Krnmmrich study" '_v -/ \ '.'.i'i /1 ,* - i -k. *-i * ; ;' .'Art. j *' j '* / '" f k " -,r,- 1"\ 4-- Q The Rrummrich study or any study that Monsanto'pays for. \ ' ' * '/ ^ _'r - , ^ F /" ,, * *- I ` A" No, Sir. , 4r /;/' ,, '^ 1' 1 * . - ,>j J* ' y :` Q * ` That's not one of ,the purposes, Doctor?" ;V /. ' '/ ^ j. A .6 ; I1 _f * 'It can be. / ` ar * j+ * * :. * ** P ' > ' | ` . - // * / ; ' , V i-* 1 . r " i * , K " t " rJ T Q Doctor, the study;that yg paid for with'Dr. Suskindthat we're ,7 discussing now didn't/serve, that purpose, 1did it? It would-not protect. 8 / ..." ~ .-v V-; '/ / ' / ` \V _^ Monsanto's financial interest, 1would it, sir? / , 9, '/A*. " I don't know. , '/ .... 1 - " .. IQ 1 - ,, 11 / , Q Doctor,' do you, know-anybody outside`of-the group at Monsanto if -the'upper echelons in the management1 that had a`copy or -received a copy of, 12 13 /; this report a tall or even knew of its existence before this Court ordered " ,vJ <, 1 L `' ' / //'/,/ v your -lawyers to bring, it in to me? :Do you know of anybody/anywhere that 14 1 -. .v\v .*j-*(; :r-^--.i? \ .-*h>-\-f."-,, :,\A*, i -'^% '-! - ' 1 15- even knew ; 1 '' r J : of-the existence:of; this study . 1 ' J' 11 r" -//: out7s', ijdje, `i\. 'of l s'- thepeoplethat ' f ' 1 -- . . I'.,- ' \i . described at Monsanto? ; " '' :-^/ -u/ ` 16 / ' '' -r \ '' < - *' MR. EINEMAN: >'Ob^jctinV1yut. Honor / 'That question mischaracteriz es 17' \ -/ ^ /'s V^v^ `v ' Li ' -r what .occurred../It is correct as far1as it; goes; but as Mr/Carr knows; .1 8 '/ - -- . - 'V / v -r1$, ,w -i ,/ i ,r , r" , v . this Court ordered us 'to get" it from Dr. Suskind, who refused to give it 19 to- him,.and-- // 20' / _. , /' ' ' 1/ - -* ; ` 21 ", MR. CARR: That isn't the' facts at all. "This was ih your - - . ' possession,.this study was.in your possession and had Been since September 22 : 29, 1980/ I'm talking about'*this,.r e p o r t ; 23/ ; ./, */. , Q Doctor^ this so-called health study,/September,'1980 is when you- 24 - 122 i -K , C J ^ * - - -' ,J. V* M '* -* p , ^ -* ' ' C r. ' - t * ' -^ > '-w t ' ' -- . T 1 ' ' ,- -T Jf 'J ' *! - - " 1 1 ^received it from Dr. Suskind* I'm asking you/ Doctor, is there anybody 2. outside, of the group at Monsanto.that even knew of the`existence; of this 3 ' health study .until'we, until this Court ordered Monsanto to produce it to .4* me? v , - \ m\T 'r v ' 5 .< A ' ' I don* t think so. J ` \ - _* 6': : 7-.; " Q ' Doctor, is it.a possible.reasonfor therefusal.of Monsanto to -1 . , 1 * *^- j.^, r "1 i . rJ n. 1* 1 * l <* *LJ i - . J fS n iv ', t *. r N , " f- r * l" ^ J , r ' Jta" . 1 L` * ' " 1 *h - Yi publish this-report'or to let it be known, you announced in 1980 that you -8'; were going to let .the public know;of It, is-a possible reason1that you didn'i 9 ,1s -because this report showed that there `is a direct relationship*between . - 10't exposure to chlorinated phenols containing dioxin and certain health 11 .effects?^ 1" /; 12 ' A . No/ Sir.'' ' >- 1 \ ,,. V,- . 'J, . j; - ' v r`'V 13 "j- i4' : V MR, HEINEMAN: fObject to.the form of the question, your HonorV ,,- 1" * Aj * r j *N S ' V i" ` "s ' 1 - a "A .. -t, ja > i *r* ; ^ . `` ' . 'y* L V / ` -V i(*{` 4 '` Xt-implies-- it 'doesnft"imply--it: ';b tates t h a t ,we refuse'to'publlsh it, 15 refuse V to let it bSe? 'kn~_oy:w: nr,, a\ nd I don'tr k n. <o- w*/, that there.is- any.eevviidence _. of I6;- 'that.-at all.,J- \ ; f /;'; V. J *f-1?.-V -? '\ 1 - 1 17`* 18 J ... 1 . .THE COURT; .Objection is ,,overruled. ' , j, */ Y > i i " ' , ' i- * 'u : , *' 1 . . i. f .i : ; i - < ,* V - ' V :' w '^ - f .rr i - 1 ' , -. ' Q This Exhibit 1504 shows that tlie union was going to'demand that' 19 a joint letter.be issued to Dr. Suskind demanding this report on these 20 results, doesn-t it, sir? - \ y; '' !- ' V; 21 1' 'A 7,esi sir. _ v-; ` . 22 ' . Q . A n d `it wasn't publicise 4aV As/the1union knew, was-it, sir? 23 *- A 'No,- sir. . 1 ' ' . 'V ;V. . l: " ' " .;- ` rJ , , * ''y; 24 Q And no one else knew bf.this report,, did they, sir?' ' PCNGAO CO.. BAYONNE. N.J, 1 A No, air. 2 Q N'Ow, Doctor, isn't it a possible reason that the abnormal lab 3 reports at are shown in this report correlates with the exposure to 4 these chlorinated phenols containing dioxins, correlate with the symptoms 5 and that that is the reason that you at Monsanto have not caused this to 6 be published? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q That*8 not a possible reason? 9 A No, sir. 10 Q Now, Doctor, look at the porphyrin results shown here. 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q There are 38 people with abnormal porphyrins, according to the 13 Metpath laboratory based upon the sample sent them. 14 A No, sir. 15 MR. HEINEMAN: Excuse me, your Honor, which report are we talking 16 about now? I thought he was talking about the Suskind report. I'm 17 confused. Are you talking about this document you created? 18 MR. CARR: Yes, counsel. 19 MR. HEINEMAN: Mr. Carr20 Q Because Suskind doesn't mention the porphyrins, does he? 21 MR. HEINEMAN: My question is which document are you talking 22 about? 23 Q Doctor, the document that I have in my hand and that you're 24 looking at is the summary of the abnormal lab reports, it's Exhibit 1507 and 1 it shows-- .- 2 MR* HEINEMAN: Thank you . .. 3 Q -- abnormal porphyrins in.38 people tested. 4 A No, sir. , . 5 Q Have you counted up those checkmarks. Doctor? 6 A No, X did not. 7 Q Well, are you going to count them? I counted them, it adds up to 8 38, 9 A But they1re not abnormal. 10 Q Doctor, did not the laboratory' report these as; abnormal? 11 A No, sir. 12 < Q Did not? J ^ ,V 13 A No,' sir. 1 J' "' < * ;,, 14 Q Doctor, ,`if you will look.at the first one that has abnormal 15 porphyrins would be Andrews, would you look to. his porphyrins and see what 16 Metpath reported? Metpath,reported what for'the coproporphyrin, Doctor? 17 The last page; . '' ` 18 A Nine micrograms per liter* j* 19 Q And what was the normal range given by Metpath? 20 A There is none (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1509 was m,arked forj id\ent"if"ication.) Q Doctor, you are aware of the fact that Monsanto ordered us to give the normal test range for,these various laboratory reports, you are aware of that facti sir? ' J c' A Hot air. ; '' 'y ;: '1 I, y? 7 '2 ' 1vv.. ',**'L'"`'r '.1Q\ ' I show you Exhibit * . ,, ^ >,, ' * 1509 and ` ask you -r .if > 1yo*u have ever `i,' seen what >i - - rf r*s h# '- , ' * r- 1 ' j , i> *_ ( p - '_ > * ' T *, , ^ t. Metpath;oays is normal for its porphyrins? 3 ;Lr*'--rA . Yes,Veir. ,4 * - r *" Q. You haverseen those before? , 5 1 %j A" Np,sir . f1 ^ ' i c . ' ^ 'Jr 1 'l ::; " Q T- And Doctor, normal for coproporphyrin--- 1 8 - *> V .At ... / 9* MR. CARR: Offer 1509 inpo evidence ,if it pleaser-the Court, " t H,,t- \ ^ J ijitr> i ** - j ' *' - '1; t 1 ** * i T FT f -* - H * ' t ` \ Z (Plaintiff's -Exhibit 1509 was offered into evidence.)' * r 1 ,, s ! **>_ * . ' r i . . " * , ' ,, ^ ; i -,, MR. `HEINEMANr May-i seejit? , y \ : - y ' - i y ; v `'7.\' 1 7 MR.CARRf Sure;'1,;S i%. ' . V ' \ 7- '7: V. H :'.V 1-: V- 7 y.'j * -i-'J J 7- - , .. - -.Q Doctor,' while he's looking At it,`you are aware of the fact that 12' Dr. Suakind used the same laboratory for the Nitro;studies and for the P J- ' i'1:' " ''"'j " -i 7 .l 1'.', ' , ' ' ' Krnmrich studies ,th Metpath? ` 4 f -* J, 7J \ A > - - ' r ' .. t ., ( i '.7 I thought' soV ' * 15 - ' 1 ij c j** * , - ^ i" ` , 16 17'\ . V '11 1'' *' l .L.' ^ `7 Q And do you recollect looking at the Nitro study and it.gave normal 1 " v'i * t ' ~ . t \-"1 ' -^ , and abnonnal porphyrin ranges inithe Nitro study? , ` .J ',-A No j sir. ' 7;: \.-p ` .`7 . :. . : ^ 18 7 * r Q. You don't.recollectvthatt' r. 1 \ ^ V; . ^ 19 1Z 20* . .a n o . ;y . - ` 21r MR. CARR: ^Offer 1509 and I representto the Court that this was 22 ' delivered to us tu+nr der orderh 'of the a Court*" forB the j normal test, re> ferences U-s' ed '- '1 ^ ' -- '7 ' ' 23 . by Dr. Susklnd in his Krusmirich and ln his Nitro. study, your Honor.7 24 MR. HEINEMAN:* I'd like to see the request for production pursuant 1 to which this was produced, your Honor, because I don't recall that being 2 the case. This has written on it "Suskind Nltro study." 3 MR. CARR: I wrote that pn there, counsel. 4 THE COURT: Objection is,overruled. 5- ' MR. HEINEMAN: And I object to it further on the basis that 6 there is absolutely no foundation laid for the admission of this document 7 into evidence. , 8 THE COURT: Objection is,overruled. 9 MR. HEINEMAN: - The witness has never'Seen it before. 10 THE COURT; Objection overruled. It is 'admitted. II (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1509 wasadmitted into evidence.) 12 Q Doctor, the coproporphyrin normal range from Mayo is from a . 13 low of 30 to a high of 240? 1 > ` ,, 14 A Is this Metpath or Mayo?, You said Mayo. IS Q I'm sorry. The Metpath Ranges as from February 25, *79 was from 16 30 to 240, is it not, sir? 17 A For 24 hours-. 18 Q Doctor, that's the test range that was given to us. You understand 19 that, and they have their normal range at 30 to 240, do they not? 20 A . For 24 hours, otherwise it doesn't count. 21 Q You're saying otherwise it doesn't count, but they have it as 22 their test range of microgram units, 24 hours, 30 to 240, 30 to 240, do they 23 not? 24 1 A Yes. 127 , *- - ....../--fi .- ' 7, -1 - v _ ' . .,'-'/> ^ *; V ' " . V- '*r '7 1; ` ' . J '/ V Q r And it is/per .riter.?' V, V `- ' v . - ^ - ^. ' . ' ' * 2 /: / A - No,-sir* absolutely not, V ; . . V 11 / . r3 '4 s Q Doctor, we 'll get' to that; subsequently* But the, range that they've given here ranges from 30 to 240, does it not,?' ' 1 1/. j _4 *. +* rf . j- ~ "\ * J^ * *v T k ' A .. For 24 hours. V . . . W V . 6, -, T Q. Whatever, V it is , the s I. *?s' ame.` rangetha*1t... Dr. ~ Suskind u-ise- dj . in h i s ,study ' 1 '' . ' t * r j- . ' I' - ; 1 - * . ` ' . ,,r- . - r ,tJ 1 r,, lof;?abnormal porphyrins,Jwas'it.not, sir? - ; ' ,: " ,8 J. 9 10 Vii 12 1 ' 13 - *:& I don't know.-, , rv- >. . ...V. 1 . ' - - .- ' ^\ `j J! f ' . v - " V f i' " * ' ' .v '.j ,i\f ' . J.f r' (; ' , ;V q Doctor,' it'you t u m :^t.'Table 35' in Plaintiff's Exhibit 1493, on' j, * ^ lv . * V- r Page 77, are you there', .sir? ,, , . L . -^li i . .V .'-'V V. -f V' ..'. >\V: .1V...>^,V 1iv;-'.\-J;-V -tV . ' \ ,7 ;/ .,A , 1 1ve'got ,Page'77,.yesV s'irVf /' " ` ` V ,J '' */- ' ~ v ^ 1vL ' ' : - ;Q And does hoti Dr; Suskind describethe normals for the coproporphyr: .n, `JJ'Vv `' ;,) _J.\ \J ti '7/ * : i. ir- _ r. ' .', . , i- the range of 30 t 2407 ` ' . 14 . 15. V 16 A I need one o> the Other ones ; Yes; sir, I'm sorry, i was-trying to see which is right. '.,*,-7 * ri , 1 / ., 1 ,L\, j .''/ 'v * ' , ' tr>>' 1 ,t/ . V ** i r r " - *+ k ,Q ; Does not Dr, Suskind describe the Inormals for coproporphyrin as \ 17 > from 30,to 240 Aerograms per liter.?' 'V * J`v ] V / 18 / 19 L- : A I can't1tell, yes, sir. ,,` v'*V ' - ,. V : L>" ' 1 v - - Q And does he not, and you.recognize that it 's the. same laboratory, 20 ; 21 Metpath, that he used there that he used here? ;; - v ` V * A J Yes,v.:sirV * . ^ V ' ,, - .. /' ;\ , - 22 , Q > And that is the-same noripal range that I've shown you in Exhibit 23 1509, is it not; sir? i -\ \ ,- 24 /A" '/ No, siri' ' , .;/r` ,. vv r' 1'/ / /; PENGi D CO.. BAlfONNC.' K.J. h, J ' r* t,, b ** 128 , Q'. It'snot- 30 .to 240,; sir?., .. '/' ' ; .1 ' <' -2,-V A , Yes# but that's per1lite?.-- / Q Doctor, he is,,the one-- you recognize this gr the Metpath results ` 3 that was given/ I'll represent, to, you that, Exhibit 1509 is the Metpath J4^ teat ranges given to'us by, Monsanto for the basis .for-thenormals for, the s:'-} / ,6 ;: Suskind/Nitr'.study, that is Exhibit1483, and it-was given to us for the /,y / /. - '* , . ' -.-/ . -L _v - ^ V-. V , / ' basis of the normals for the Krumrarich study for Metpath'as well.. Mould. -7 /;\j j - V :' *'"?>' -// ' 8r-, you take .that a s f represented,- - i V ^ F _ -j* f- sir, are ^ these * --*stes**ts ranges "~ the * same range ' "* 1^ -Ii*V ` i. I* > J- ,~ j r ' -r ' " ,, : in .the /. Kru1mJm.ric'h p1/lant; study i and in the </Lfr ; / Exhibit!. 1483for '?:f *V/-/ ' coproporphyrins, ' - To ; v, ur J - 30-to. 24?' -/ - / v l / 1(K .. >:/ y " _ - ' " .' * '. : \ ,11... 12 ,j.,A ' NHoO,, Ssir** Jiy\ -7 -** ( ^^ <i,`a y ;;-'ii '. .. 'i, 4j:(* - 1. .4 f, p u r n - i A i " * ' -r W* J? ^-t* '^ ^ 4 J * . *."-* *c " * F k. 1 V , ` Q Doctbr, you see that 30 is low and 240 is th high? - ..i_ . , i > 13 i4^; - A r .Ys,'.sir. 'J jw ' - , ... , ,t .` ! * _ ' * ,1 r * ^l ' 4 * jp ^ ^ 11 J v * , - ^ " , * ' ' i^ , >- i- r , J ^ Q. ' And this table for, coprbporphyrins, 30 Is the lowland 240 13 ' , 15 th high? ^ '';J r;-' . ^ - * \ / '`J A ,,Yes -S 16- "--t .. 'i . ` '17 v Q .. They .are the .same, are they not, Doctor? ; ' i {$' , ,A :' " But one is per liter,a n d th other one is per .24 hours.',_ ; J '191 Q Dr* Suskind interpreted those to mean the micrograms per liter, 20. did he- not, ;sir? : T a; / J"L '" 21, A., I don't;.know how he got that * . ' l. *22./' 23* 1 Q 'Doctor, you can sy`doesn't that L stand for liter? 2--:A^/'Yes'i, sir._ k>, ^ 1 'i'/ j -'v,. . .'* r` 24 . Q And doesn' t MCG stand, for ,mlcrogram? 1 1 PENCAD CO.. SAVONNE, N.J. 07002 FORM 'lL .24 S' ,1J . * r^ , * /'*^_ <Y '' ' p, i . ' J- .. ^ ^^-p^ ^ "/'A' ` Yeev sir. ' ^ _r ''r-r". " .. / ', Y ',, - Q And.didn't he have these/normals from Metpath? 'r'^'. `, '<iv ' 'A' . X don't know,, but he mus have-- , ,V : ' 4 "Doctor, he must have had * at least your counsel, have represented * ' ^ " jT ** V - - 5 to *us that this is what he used, sir* Now, based upon that representation, 6;. has .' he not.Int,ertptre1te/d'iM.eti"p"s'at,h>'*s"n>ormal".J.ra<"nJgVe to he i'v,'r' 30 to L 240 micrograms - - * U :W ? h' - -/> '-? 1 '?;i' _per liter?,,* ^,*4.5 V '5*'- . >>';? " ; .. "/ -\ :8 ;a - ' I don't, know*, , ' / 1/, v /I,.- -: . v 1J -i - 'irr"~-. ;* .' ,->.JvJ. , f<--,. ), - 9 , ' Y Q; ' .Doctor,^does he^put/it'thete?.; 1 ' ' J t 1' / 10 ... ; Tss,. sir. ,'. ' , ^yi`\ ` '.V V' f. \*''X '& ' -v ` i 'j" 11 ? , 0wY "r: Qrj ' Did.he "put it,there? _ ` ; , ' .V > . / . :1 .. / 12 . -;.a :'No, sir-.-/. r-:.y './ /' 1 '.J ' L ' ';- '' , 13' ;V Q - Has he described itat.30 to 240 micrograms per.liter? ' *. x . 14, :r .A ,Yes,, sir. : / . v , 15 ;Y - q And, that'a how he has';used the Metpath homals, is not' that' TH SNNOAVG 1yoQXuC. ' 3r9- s * J.lZZOJ. " .( 'ou ".a '"tv Zi ' 16/ correct, Kt * i ,s.ir? r, ,1' 1 ,, '> `-i :.n'f ` >, / .1.; ^ ,,r1 ..'> .V .. >, " i i. 1 ",-r ,r ", p ' . r"* ,ri ^^ 17 -k' a ,. I. don't know. \ J ',,, , 7 ' ` ; i . Y Q Doctor, he .used it, didn^t he? 18 /. V .19/ / , A; I'm not sure where he got that from. : ": 1J ' . '20 V. r **- Doctor, I'm r . / rr-V'''' representing to you that this :'r' ` / is where ^*,r. it' came from, \ . '- ' * .21 . that.your people have told us.under order ,of Court that these are, the . v "22- .Metpath normal ranges, these`and "no others, Doctor. \ ` }].* ' 23 / * : J A > .Those"are, thehMetpath normal ranges, yes,sir. " ' L./' 24 Q - All right,' and you know' ghat for.a fact, don't you, sir? '* \!.y' J - 'i * " V ; vi *T-' .1. .'^ J J .f sv . 130 .r ' A', Yes, sir,1 s;`. -v [Vv-y ' ;`r ,1" ,>-v r y* *. - ` 2." - 1.- Q " You ;also know, that ,_ , '1 " :1 ' Dr*rSuskind nys t, -,1 us* ed?'yMetpat^h;.^ in the Nitro "h study ' " ,,, - :1 J *' u " t -I p , y 3 .and in tlie Krumtnrich study, you know that, too, don't you, sir? . . '*4-;.' y\ A ; Yes, sir.' \ ;y j!J ' ,L -y ' . ' .-y' y - .V ,v Q ; * , And you know then yyi y\ that he interpreted ,-y y <-.yv\ : the .f -Metp7ath-'""nvor-mal ranges . , . V ry :v. '/ ,y>J y: y- , ,.y .vy - ' . ' 6 - for uro .ahd coproporphyrihs to be.aa he'sput it;in Table' 35 rand Exhibit 1 ,ri t - .. j 1 -""j1 * - i1 * , 1483i yqu- knovthat, top, don't you, sir? ,y * - * * ,/* $' 1 " ^ . L ''''** ` j `-j y'X- ' 8 ` A_y Yes, sir;; ^ y-- ; ? ,10'. - Q .And he has put down,. he;interprets that' to be micrograms >per liter VT, .Vt!1 :./'i-;>v> ; -tJ,f' ' k i'i^ ;i- Jv ^* 1'"c - ^, . . _-7 r' doesn't he, sir? 30 to 240 micrograms per'liter as normal?. Mi; ' 'A Yes.. t' - "12 p '* v ~ 13 ' . Q Mow, based upon his. interpretation of the Metpath values,, will you how Agree1thatyAndrews has1an abnormal coproporphyrin and an abnormal '14 . uroporphyrin result?, . ^ r\ rVj. .. y ... - rlf A ,/; No,1'sir.' ;/ : J` L ^ , --- > 1 '-,L; -* y-. r y ,. i , 16 r ,17 1' " Q ..Doctor,, what is -Andrews' ,copropOrphyrin result? -J, ' . , ~r' - v ,v A 7 It's listed at nine, micrograms per liter. ' , -1 1 , v- Q .: And what'Is the range given by. Dr. Suskind, in Exhibit 1483 for? lK * ,, ,f 19 ; "y a ,- That's^- : : " *'\ L .. m o . Q , Fot; normal, sir?.' . . X' ; - . -J'^ ./V' ' ,21. v It's per liter. ; . rl- -T y ^: : 22; -, 23 . 24 *Q" ' .What. ie the range, sir, that Suskind has given,for coproporphyrinsj >1 .4 1 "y - ; ^ r,A . ^3o.\toy24o. - V / . j . ' '.'-'y^.'y;_ ' . - ' y . *" , j .. Q * Micrograms per what,.sir? ` , 1 .1:y - y .1 1 : PENGAD CO.. BAYONNE. N.J. 1 A Per liter. ' t* < i Q And what does this man have micrograms per liter? 2 A Nine micrograms. 3 Q Is that more or less than 30 micrograms? 4 A It's less than. 5 Q Therefore, it would be low, according to the Dr. Suskind Table 30 6 of normals from 30 to 240 micrograms per liter, would it not, sir? 7 8 A Yes, sir. Q And on the uroporphyrins, what does Dr. Suskind interpret or has 9 he put in Table 33 as being the Metpath ranges for normal? 10 11 A Fifteen to sixty. 12 Q And what did Andrews report in uroporphyrins? 13 A Five micrograms. 14 Q Is that less or more than 15? IS A Less. 16 Q Therefore, Andrews has low coproporphyrins and low uroporphyrins 17 according to these ranges set out in Plaintiff's Exhibit 1483 at Table 35, 18 does it not, sir? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 THE COURT: Mr. Carr, /is thisra good point for a short break? 21 MR. CARR: Yes, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Okay, ladles and gentlemen, we will take a short recesj 23 at this time. The admonishments that I have given you earlier will apply 24 this break also. The Court is in recess. I (At this time, Court was In recess.) 2 BY MR. CARR: 3 Q Doctor, with respect to these Metpath lab reports, on the lab 4 reports that you have In Exhibit 1504, Metpath has one section for one 5 portion for normals, and then he has a fourth for results outside the 6 reference range, does he not, sir? 1 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q And the-- both the uro and the coproporphyrins that we have 9 discussed in the case of Andrews or in that section reserved for the results 10 that are outside the established reference range, are they not, sir? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q And this is the placement of these values of. these test results 13 as being outside that reference range is done by Metpath, that wasn't done 14 by Susklnd, was it, sir? Thiels their document, is it not,1sir? 15 A This is their document, yes, sir. 16 Q And signed by one of their laboratory pathologists, I suppose? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q And have you had an opportunity to look at the porphyrins or at 19 least a sample of the porphyrins to establish that wherever we, or the 20 nurse that went through this for me, checked off abnormal porphyrins, they 21 were in fact reported as being test results outside the established reference 22 range by Metpath? 23 A No,, sir. 24 Q You haven't checked that out? 1 A I haven't gone through It, but it doesn't say outside the 2 reference range. 3 Q It says test results outside established reference ranges or 4 confirmed normal result, doesn't It say that, sir? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And doesn't It say coproporphyrin and uroporphyrin, do they not 7 fall within that category just described? 8 A They list a range. 9 Q Doctor, they have reported the uroporphyrin, the creatinine, the 10 triglycerides, all as test results outside the established reference range, 11 don't.they, sir? 12 A That's1what they say., 13 Q And in fact the coproporphyrin and the uroporphyrin were both 14 outside the range that we had shown you before established by Metpath and 15 used by Dr. Susklnd in Exhibit 1483. 16 A No, sir. The reference range that you have for Metpath was 17 in 24 hours rather than liters. 18 Q Doctor, Dr. Susklnd used that as an abnormal result, didn't he, 19 sir? Micrograms per liter as reported by Metpath? . 20 A I don't know what was reported by Metpath. 21 Q Well, you know that these results were reported by Metpath. 22 A Yes,, sir. 1 ^ . .,, ' i . *, ,,? > , ' 23 Q We went through;that several times already, Doctor. 24 A Yes, sir. Q And Metpath puts these In the category of test results that are 1 outside the established range, doesn't he, sir? Don't they, sir? 2 A Yes. 3 -^ Q And look at Riley, sir, one of the part of Group Exhibit 1504, or 4 look at, well, look at Riley because that Is one where Metpath also gives 5 an established range. -Would you do that, sir? 6 7 A Yes, sir. . 8 Q Gives us the range of normal for these porphyrins. 9 A Yes, sir. ',p , 't '- L , *. Q Now, again in the category fortest results outside established 10 J* \^ f l r *I 7 11 reference range, Metpath has put In both coproporphyrin and uroporphyrin, ,i 12 haven't they, sir?- <.t t `te-' '/ s. - *" / { 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q And they give the range' for coproporphyrin at 30 to 240, do they 15 not, sir? A Micrograms per 24 hours, 16 17 Q And they call 13 abnormal, don't they, sir? 18 A * That's what they reported. 19 Q Yes, and that 13 is outside the normal range that's on this 20 report, on their test results, is it not, sir? 21 A That's based on a volume of-- 22 Q Doctor, my.question is simply Metpath has put 13 in here and it's 23 put in their category of outside th established reference range, isn't 24 that right, sir? A Based on the-- 1 Q Excuse me, could you answer that question? 2 A I am, sir. 3 Q Thirteen Is lower than 30 to 240, Isn't It, sir? ~ 4 A \ But, they don't say-5 Q Excuse me, Doctor, could you answer that one at a time? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q Thirty Is lower than the range they putright next tothat. 8 A Yes, sir; - I'i ' ' f 9 Q .They put' that range* in there ; 10 A Yes, sir.' ' \ j; .\\ , ; *-,, . 11 12 Q Not Suskind and not you and not me. A ' Yessir; , r^ ;^ ; f ' 1 13 Q They put the range In there at 30 to 240, did they not, sir? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q The same as Suskind used, the same as was in the exhibit that I 16 gave you earlier of the Metpath ranges. . 17 A No.sir.* 18 19 Q - 30 to 240 is not the same, sir? A' One is based per liter. 20 , - 21 Q Excuse me, isn't 30 to 240 the same? 22 MR. HEINEMAN: Objection, your Honor, he interrupted his answer. 23 THE COURT: Objection is overruled. 24 A I'm sorry. < * 'r. Q Isn't 30 to 240 the range that1s' established here by Metpath? 1 A Yes, sir, 2 V-i t i Q And isn't it 30 to 240 that's in the other exhibit that he gave 3 you earlier for these normal values here for the range values, Exhibit 1509? 4 A What's 1509? 5 '' Q The range, Metpath*s ranges, the 30 to 240 for the copro and the 6 15 to 60 is exactly the same, is it not, sir? It's'30 to 240 on 1509 for 7 coproporphyrin. 8 * 1 '- : t, . - . i:.1 A Micrograins per 24 hours. 9 ^' Q And they got the.-same 30, to; 240 in this result for Riley, don't 10 they, sir? 11 * , - *n . "1" , ('i`i- ^ ` 12 A Yes, sir. ' * * ' VL'* i*l t. 13 Q And they call his result of 13 as abnormal,'don't they, sir? 14 A Yesi sir. J 15 Q . And they call his result of in the uroporphyrin of 1.20 as abnorme don't they, sir? 16 .* ' Jtr s ' * 17 A Yes, sir.' ' / . " Q `And they have as a normal range 15 to 60 in his lab results, don't 18 19 they,' sir? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q And they also have the same 15 to 60 as. their abnormal in 22' Exhibit 1509, don't they, sir?/ 23 A Yes, sir. Q And Doctor, if you look at Thoman's, out of the same group exhibit 1 would you look at that, sir? The last page of the exhibit. 2 A Yes, sir. 3 ,Q They have the copro and uroporphyrin values, don't they, sir, 4 the reference ranges, established reference ranges? 5 A Yes, sir. ,. 6 Q And it is exactly the same, 30 to 240 for copro and 15 to 60 7' for uro? 8 t A .Yes, sir. H .9 Q Now,, they show hereVthe copro having 96 micrograms in 24 hours 10 and they show that to be normal, don't they, sir? {- V ?- r! \ ..IV ; * . H 11 A Yes, sir; * v - * ; 12 Q They showed the uroporphyrins for Thoman to be 62, and that's 13 outside the normal, Isn't it, sir? 14 A Yes, sir. IS Q That's high, isn't it, sir?, 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q And Doctor, these are the same values that exist in each of these 18 exhibits in Group Exhibit 1504 in each of these lab reports, isn't that corn 19 sir? - `. 20 A No, sir, not at all. 21 Q Sir, do they give any other normal range or established reference 22 range other than 30 to 240 for the copro and 15 to 60 for the uro? 23 A No, sir. 24 Q They use the same in each of these abnormal porphyrins, each of 138 these porphyrin results hre, they use that same range, don't they, 'sir? v, I A ; No* Sir..' 'i : .,' _ ^ ,, J . .^ , 17 ^^ '` f" t " ` '* 'V . , r- ' , Q Doctor, show me. where there is a different range that they use*, '-3;,, Show me-- 4 A They haven't established a range. 5. Q : Doctor, dor they noti In each :of these instances that we have 6 : ' 'r--1;?*' <?> if ''.-/H \ . 1 . - ' v ;-V ' -t/V- .. checked here, 'are. not' theseporphyrins and the values that they call outside 7- the established reference range?' 8 ^ J..x ' .*> A' ';-ji1"'* ji"t , ' 'J^ f.'-'V / A, No, sir. '1 9 ', r- / *' ` * V J.j /V t v/,T. V'1 \ ' . , . -Q Well, look' at each of these j look at each one that you want, 1(P Andrews was,'-was it not? 11 _; :- r .-A No, sir. 12 ^ f" ' ' -/ j Q ' Doctor, didn't werJust go through this? - 13 . A . Yes, sir. / <. 14 ' . Q And establish it was outside the 30 to 240, and that they had put 15 it;~in' theTM: 'V _ L ( 16 ; .r " '^ / '\ -A No, sir../ 17 t 1Q .We didn't just go through that for the coproporphyrins. 18 A And I. said no, sir then, too. " *. / 19 _ ' 20 |J. 21" , Q. . ` , `A Doctor, isn't 9 less than 30 to 240? r. ' r . . - ' , l, - r r` ' It has to'be in the isame unit ., ; * V , ` 22, '.Q- Doctor* excuse me, isn't 9 -less than 30 to 240?^ 23 j. "r A Yes. .. ' ` , , f-'. - ; ; .-r , - . Jy ' t . ,-^ ^ ,1 ' 24 q , And do they not ^ave,: i11:os ,being outside'the established reference " r . rJ \" ''\ 1 ^ 1 range? 2 A No, sir. '3 Q Doctor, do you see the line, the name there, test results there 4 outside established reference range, and are they not talking about the 5 coproporphyrin? i- , ," .A t .'; * ; 6 A Yes, sir4 : '' 7 Q Then have they not put the coproporphyrin results as being outside .1 1 j- :. j7 ,.. 1 i'. ` ' , '; I-*.1 J > 8 the established reference range? 9 A No, sir.; \ I ^ -J ' S J 10 Q Doctor, how can you say that coproporphyrin, they have it listed 11 here as being outside the established reference range, don't they, sir? 12 A No, sir. 13 Q Doctor, am I misreading this? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q Coproporphyrin is somehow or another not below this line where 16 it says results outside-- 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q It is? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q And they are communicating to the reader of this document that 21 the coproporphyrin is outside their established--* 22 A No, sir. 23 Q There Is an asterisk, asterisk one.says number one was no total 24 volume given, and the results are expressed for liter and Metpath has no. . 140 > established range for porphyrins per liter. Doctor, we saw that with the' i* ` ` t mu Mm j ' ,.2\ - Susklnd study, we/saw, that .with Rileyand Thoman, didn't we,.sir? 3 . . ..A . '"ifV / 1j- *' 1 * t / . - Those :two were haeed on-24-hour ,urine' specimens. \ 4; 5 ;.q Who says'that? ' _. '-l-** Jt > k ' ; i . r * !- \f: ; v, ;v * , - . , A It's in'therein ^ ' % '1\ 6 ;Q Where does it; say >that?: P <* J * 4/ ' 1* jf * > j -/ *- tk- , V , . 7 -A On Thoman, it says; total'volume of urine,,two .liters.- 8 :;Q No,J.20 liters. > ; .. : J- .r .9 '* A Well, that's 2 liters.' 1:l 1^ r . (/ ^ , ia j t' - " 'j . w t - , " - -, 10 Q Doctor, it says .20 liters.. r' -. II - A No, oh", I'm looking. at Thornan. j v' ` V.- t >. l J J` . 12 Q I'm sorry, I'm looking, at Riley. ir. / ' ` ', ' ,J '`V ' 13 A The total volume on Riley-- on Thomn was two liters. 14 . 15 F ' "/ 16 Q Tea. - r. ' ' i ' s' m' *j A And because it's two. liters, they then can put `a range out here, in micrograms pet 24 hours,, and when;It's abnormal and outside the range 17 / it will be put' down here, the uroporphyrins were outside because--and they;; i is ->, expressed it as 24 hours rather than per liter. 19 'Q Well, Doctor,.but -they .treat it normal fot the coproporphyrins, 20 do.they not?; ; ' rl, - ' . ' - ' 21; ' Yes;,^sir. '-V _ * " `*'-v,y . ; *f1'**'*`- 'r., _` ^ ' -1- . .. y -iV? ,+rj ". :;* i. 22- . Q-^ And they treat the uroporphyrin as abnormal, do they not? .23 A. Yes, sir, but they don't have that little asterisk for-number 24,. one,, two, and three.' ` * jv 1 Q Doctor, where Is there some indication^that these gentlemen 2 gave 24-hour urine samples?, *. _v- . . / 3 A This right here,(It says this .is expressed in two liters of urine V '*` 4 was sent to them. ?Z, m"' 4 J 5 - Q So? ' f (: 6 A That's the basis for their calculation. 7Q a sir? Two liters of urine doesn't mean'It is a 24-hour sample,.does it, 9 A- The Metpath assumed it was 24 hours. 10 Q Well, look at this one, .20 liters. ,Now, Doctor, in 24 hours 11 somebody is going to urinate .20 liters, that's a fifth,of a liter? 12 A I don't understand how they-- 13 Q All these people got:the same instructions, and they all deliverec 14 the same amount. 15 A No, sir. 16 ` Q This is really at .20 liters? 17 A That1s what it says. ,, >r 18 Q And that is-- ` : 19 A And all these documents express-- 20 Q Excuse me, Doctor, and that was called a normal range for 24 21 hours of urine output? 22 A No, and if'we-- 23 Q Excuse me, Doctor, is that what you would call a 24-hour output? 24 A 1 wouldn't. ' ;i_._` i a,' 1 Q Nobody else would, either', would they? 2 A I hope not,.. 3' Q Now, Doctor, what.you have done with this statement is you 4 have taken figures from Metpath and said,., since they put" it in liters, .5 therefore it's a 24-hour sample? 6 .A No, sir, 7 Q And that's' the only thing that you did, 8 A No, sir. 9 1Q Oh, really? Now, Doctor, wherein do any of these abnormal values 10 on Andrews, for Instance, don't they call it abnormal? 11 A No, sir, 12 Q Now, Doctor, and I am afraid you're going to be going in circles 13 forever, is it above or below the line for normal porphyrins? 14 A It's below the line. '15 Q . Yes, the things below the line are outside the established 16 -reference range? 17 A No, sir. 18 Q . Doctor,, does it say that? 19 A But that is-- 20 Q Doctor, does it say that? 21 A Yes, sir ., 22 Q Now, Doctor, the urinary porphyrins, these were what Suskind 23 ordered, what Monsanto knew was going to be ordered, and what in fact was 24 reported on, Metpath reported on that which you sent, isn't that correct,  < ,, y ._ ' --*: r, !r; 3-A^J" ; *;t--4. \.\?.Ai* ^3;-1; ,n-ji l,'!i:*. .* 'A v->..?Aiw--^r< 4 - > ti j sir? T> 1 - A No, sir; - V /.(* .' >v:, ,, v./'-r c * v. \i*'>\-*) 2 ;, ,. . - ' b O i? * -V 3. 4 ;5`` 6 Qr A Q : J', -- A1 They did not? -V` * { ; : r t-1; ' X - . f. - H ' ;: u f`f ; Monsanto didn't, send them. .. 1 i/ ,. ^ \' Sueklnd,was working for.'Monsanto, was" he not, sir? r. ..." ,, 'L --/'v * 'j'- *'' \ He wasworking for himself . / !\ . - .143 7; ` ,K *1 Q/ . Doctor,'he was^b, ei 'in' g* `V paid ' for eyery bit of, his ,- time r and every *' 4 h, ^ ^ 1* y , - -1 "- bit of his. effort* and every' bit .of his skill by Monsanto, wasn' t. he, sir? '8 1 ,. * ^ , r *", s j `* J ji " - ' ,+ . A Yes^slr.' r -,v,7#.r' " 9 r>'' * .'r ` Q vNow,.if youipay somebody for,their time, if you*pay somebody for 10 their work, if you pay everything that they, bill you for, and you pay them n and you design the. study, they're working for youi aren't* they, sir? 12 13 ; V> 14 . -A Not a university.' r r% ^ I ,, . -j ^ , t t '* . ^ l| l i y A " J I "V` 1 // p H' J> 1 ^ J f '1 1< ^ + Q Well, Doctor, we're talking about Suekind. My'question is talking about Suskind. It is his study,. is it not,'sir? . 15 "v. '^y1 - r 1 f A, / ..Yes;>.sir.: .r ' 16 . * L. t ^ j ,, Pj " 'v' k f 't 17. Q And you paid him fpr it, didn't you, sir?' " ..l't ' 18 " J' A^., Yes,;-sir., * i ^li ^ ,, 1 ' / y ax* *r j * ` j , ^ , - i. 19 .'. Q , And you .paid the laboratory, didn't you, air? ^ 1 , ^ 20 , ,r A \ Yes,.-'sir. '* f..\ /. * ,. ^ ; 21 . ^ Q And every expense, everything associated with this study you 22 paid.for, didn't you, sir? 'r 23 , A ' Yes, 'eir;; ; X > y % : \'; . \ 24 . Q t/ And you paid for these porphyrin results, did you not, air? FORM H 24 0 X 1 A Yes, sir. ,, , ^ i ^ ' , . :1 / Q And didn't you give Suskind support by way of personnel as well? 2 A Yes, sir i r '1 3 ^ Q And it was Monsanto's-- he did it for Monsanto, did he not, sir? 4 A Yes; sir. 5 Q And these porphyrin results, if you at Monsanto of Suskind 6 were dissatisfied with any result, you could have sent and got more, couldn't 7 you; sir? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q If you weren't satisfied with these results by Metpath, you could 10 have had each of those men send a 24-hour sample, couldn't you, sir? 11 A . Yes, sir. -J 12 Q But you,didn't do that, did you, sir? 13 14 A No, sir. Q. So there wasn't anything about these results that you were 15 dissatisfied with, Isn't that correct, sir? 16 A Dr* Suskind said they were no good. 17 Q Excuse me, Doctor, would.you answer that question, .please, sir? 18 19 A Would you repeat, the question, please? 20 (Previous question was read by the reporter.) 21 A No. 22 Q That isn't correct? 23 A No* -, 24 Q Well, what, did you order any additional tests? t 1 A No, sir. ' - * " > t ^ _ 1 ' L i. !r '/ *>' j ( i- i 2 Q Did you have the'power, Che capacity, the time to order additional! 3 tests if you wanted them done, sir? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q Would you have ordered additional tests if you were dissatisfied r 1* 6 with the test results that you got, sir? J 7 A. If ithought it was necessary. 8 Q Well, it would be necessary if you can't rely upon these results 9 for porphyrins, isn't that right, sir? 10 A Yes., - r 11 Q And so you didn't feel it was necessary for porphyrin results to 12 send another sample, did you, sir? 13 A Not at that time. 14 Q Yes, and you never at any time since then, did you, sir? IS A No, sir. 16 Q So'these results, you were satisfied with,.and did not ask for 17 any new or additional tests, did you, sir? 18 - A No, sir. 19 Q And these results that were reported to you by Metpath, you've 20 known since 1980, have you not, sir? 21 A No, sir. ., 22 Q Sir? * 23 A No, sir. 24. Q Doctor, do you not recall the exhibit that said that Metpath sent the results, you've known'"It since 1979*' you're correct in saying no, 1 sir, these results were sent to you in 1979, in October of 1979. 2 A To Monsanto. 3 Q Well, that's what I am talking about when I say you, Monsanto, 4 isn't that right, -sir? 5 A It was sent to the plant. 6 Q To the Monsanto medical department? 7 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q And these porphyrin results were reported just exactly as we 10 see them here, weren't they, sir? These are the lab reports just as sent II to you at Monsanto by Metpath. 12 ' A I think so, but I didn't see them. I suspect so. 13 Q And Monsanto didn't express any dissatisfaction with that, did 14 they, Doctor7 15 A Dr. Osland did. 16 Q And he's working for Monsanto, isn't he, sir? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 Q He is paid by Monsanto? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q He is an employee of Monsanto, isn't he, sir? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q So Monsanto didn't,express any dissatisfaction with any of these i i -i 23 porphyrin test results, did they, sir? 24 A I don't know what the three that were redone, I don't know what, 'L- 'J' / ' ; , . v.' 1 , ' ^ V v , .* ;> - .r/V ~v`- '> S - ,t -L.vV\ <v -,r V;,,;V\ r;*`3Vf-^i -V -- ' . \ , ' i* ` *- ` ' ` 1 1 ... there were three of them that had* something done, and I don't know why those s' > " " rJ t ** .- 2 were done* ' t v `s-~ 1 r* '3 V ;4 Q . Well, if you could look at Isaac, was one of them.. He has the . * > ' '<* -'**- (' ' *- \* ' *l ,4 \ J V VF same, if you want to. look at Isaac's/porphyrins,-.:if you would. '- j t .;j ' / /; ^? ; / ;v - ,;'f '5 `' ,V r. A They were repeated because they were broken in transit. ." 6 .Q 1Well, they were repeated for that purpose then, so if you are / 1- ^.*t.'1 _.i ^^j -f * j*. ',,-J- * ` r,i-' .*L ". J . * r ', r.L "^ ,, 1 r not satisfied with those, any results, you would1have them repeated, wouldn't l '8 9 :you, -sir? . ` .' . ' ' ; ; /" \ '- *" ~ * rt |'\ - 1 1 *' * . _ 1" ^' ^, ' A '- Dr . Osland would have... '"^ L ^* ^- " ' ^` \` i r ^ 10 . Q . And Dr. Osland Is Monsanto in this instance, isn't he, sir? ii ; 12 . A Yes,'-sir. t 'm J \ "l r. ^ :.r Q . So you at Monsanto; were perfectly.`satisfied with these laboratory 13 reports,' aren't you, 'sir? *' " s ' ; r \ .. / ,'' L'-^ 14 , ' ; ,_rrj A ''Yes'. f r_ ^; * .:"vj <- v `' ' *' IS Q - They gave you the information that you were looking for and 16 ^seeking, didn't' they,- sir? . 1 r ': J; . 17 . ' - .A 4v j. ' 18 ; .Q Yes,1 ., . ~ K '' -vl-r ' '* 1 .- L ^^ - ' h ' *U They gave you the information that <you believe was important to Vj- 'r r 1 *T* . 4 I? help*you arrive at the conclusion as to whether or not these, people had . . 20: '21:, anything wrong, with them that might be associated with dioxin, isn't that l. - ^ , rj ' . r' 1- r "- * ""'l'L 4* r correct,'sir? , J-v . , 22 ' A' I don't know whatDr. Osland thought. -u r / 23 ' Q ' Doctor j I'mtalking about Monsanto,. I'mnpt talking about : i. . V 'r ' -v ' ... . . ; J ' .:24, ' Dri Osland himself. It was not hie study. .He didn't pay "for it, he's BAYONNE. N .J .' 07002 FORM IL 2 4 B n. ". t - '.'* " i^ Jim $t > ;'{ i \ > > - vv ^ t `I.',. ; 'v ;' - - 1, lf ` J ,, V( v _ ' ' r iyr r ?- -./ r h v ' . , _ |j <,, i : U VS . ;.V.- l 't.: '.. ,.i- ;> r-* , , -1. * *f * being paid Just like everybody else, that is by Monsanto. 2-\. A. Yes,' .sir. ^ - - - r'. ' " fQ V.3-, So don't try to say that it's Dr. 0slandTs study, because it 4'; isn't. ' It is Monsanto's- study, tis ,it not, sir, and not Dr/ Osland's? 5 - MR..HEINEMAN: . Objection, your Honor. He'just demanded that 6 the witness.answer everything on behalf of Monsanto because-Dr. Osland did , ' 17.8 it.4 Now, 1 h4e d*one s hJ' t. " "l w l, a.nt * t ow'k"\ n o,rjtwjMw^r h j at Dr.' .- Os_land F ,t'h^ ojught/ ^ J'I^o bject p* ' to it*'- - / % " - ' . ''; ',v i t 9- . THE COURT:, Objection is overruled; ' io V .A May I have the .question, please? > . i.;\- 1 ; l ',l- (Previous question was read by the reporter.); l 11 i' ";.v. ^ . "tJ ' ^ ' / ,'< r' ,.r '' '> j ' 12 r : -A The answer is yes.. y* T'/ / ; 13 ; , Q And Doctor, these porphyrin results, well, we've established 14- earlier that porphyrins are considered by some to be a better hallmark of r- < N dioxin exposure than chloracne, do you recall that, sir?: 15. ` 1\ ' - oV. r, ' 16 r .- ' , A ,<No,^ s` 'tirr."j,'-ji .A "--.' v- , vL /,'**>; . :t ;fV-VL: ^j.'' 41 PENGAD CO/. BAYONNE, N.J. , 07002 ' 3O " *'. 1 7 'J' 0 Q. You don't recall that? 1 Uz . 4(i0 18 J `r 19 -i;\"A Q 0 '*Zf11c3i * ' J 20 " .. i ^ ^ v- -' . A . *v - ^ v 2i\ Q No, sir. .- 's r^ _ `v-'; . ^, You;don't recall that we went through that, Dr. Rouach? .' But I never agreed that that was a hallmark. ` i -- , \ 1 ,r . , c-: `: ; I didn't ask whether or .not you agreed,,VI said that others have : 22 said that,'Doctor, I did noty sir.. . . " , I- 23` A Yes:y sir; ''- ,r Vtv ` i %J ^j. . < 24 " / ' < ; n ? .. ' .. - *' ' ' -- And we went through that, didn't we, sir? ' . , ' -.<1ir- -: i , y t i ! \ 7 / ' ^ X 7 7 ' Vf i f . ' i L r'*. ' !LJ ' T ry/,w - ._ V r-/ : r;- . -V * \ ' .v - . . , . 4 *- t -1 i" 11 * ' ' ; . _ . i A Yes, sir* 2 Q And these porphyrins show this table that you have In front of 3 you from this Metpath results showed 38 abnormal porphyrins, doesn't It, 4 sir, 38 of your workers with abnormal porphyrins. 5 A No, sir. 6 Q It shows 38 who have values other than the range for coproporphyr:. 7 30 to 240, and uroporphyrin from 15 to 60, does it not, sir?. 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q And Doctor, you knew that in 1979, I mean you at Monsanto knew 10 that in 1979, didn't you, sir? 11 ' A Yes, sir. 12 Q You did not advise any of these workers that had these results 13 to go back and have another urine sample, did you, sir? 14 A No,, sir. 15 Q You didn't ask any of them to go back for a 24-hour sample, 16 did you, sir? 17 A No, sir. 18 Q Now, Doctor, insofar as the lipids are concerned, there are 61 19 persons who have one or more abnoramlities in the lipids, aren't there, sir? 20 A Yes, sir. 21- Q And Doctor, as far as the other laboratory results are concerned, 22 there are 80 that have one or more other abnormal lab reports, isn't that 23 -correct, sir? s - ; , 24 A I didn't go-through It to add those up. Q You didn't? - i A No, sir. 2 Q Well, there is 36 on the first, page and .44 on the second page, 3 that adds up to 80, doesn't It, sir? If my statement to you Is correct* 4 A Yes, sir 5 > Q Now, Dr. Rousch, these reports given by Metpath and used by 6 Dr. Suskind show, do have a bearing upon the health of these workers at 7 Krummrich, don't they, sir7 8 A : They can. 9 Q Doctor, If you add the lipid results to the other abnormalities 10 and the porphyrin results to.the other abnormalities, there la about a half 11 a dozen, there Is ten people out of all this work force, there is only ten 12 people that-have no laboratory or porphyrin or lipid abnormalities, isn't 13 that correct, sir? , 14 ' - i 1 ^ MR. HEINEMAN: Let me object, your Honor, to Mr. Carr's question. IS He's asking this witness to make a determination as to whether or not that 16 document created by Mr. Carr is accurate when the witness has .never purported 17 to.do that, and I object to It. How can this witness know? 18 MR. CARR: Your Honor, let me withdraw the question, because 19 Mr, Heineman is correct in his. objection. 20 Q Doctor, if the results as shown In Plaintiff's Exhibit 1507 are 21 correct, and I 've represented to the Court that we will establish the 22 correctness of these results by another witness,'.this shows a large number ; *' r / j* of your employees who have abnormal lab results and symptoms that can be yj 1 related to dioxin, doesn't It, sir? 2 A Yes. .3 Q Now, Doctor, these men were also asked cancer histories, weren't 4 they, sir, and other histories of that sort, weren't they, sir? 5 A Yes, sir. .6 Q And Dr.' Susklnd makes no mention as to the number of people that 7 have cancer, does he, sir? 8' A No,, sir. 9 Q And you know that' there is about at least five that reported 10 cancer histories to Dr. Susklnd, don't you, sir? 11 A I know there are some. 12 Q And you know this is in a population of relatively young]men, 13 their average is in the 40s, isn't it, sir? ff | 14 A Yes. . 15 Q Now, Doctor, have you with Dr. Susklnd ever sat1down and 16 attempted to work together to find out why so many abnormalities shown in 17 these lab reports in these men? 18l A t don't think these are abnormals. 19 Q Doctor, would you assume, please, that these are abnormalities 20 that were reported in the Metpath results as outside the test range for 21 Metpath, will you do that, sir? 22, A Yes,,sir. - ;V ; / 23 Q 'iind this is a large number of abnormalities, Is it not, sir? 24 A I don! t -know'.> - "p' t# ; '_J Q Doctor, would, you expect 99, and that's what it is, 99 of your-- i. of a normal healthy populatipn to have these kind of abnormal results out of 2: 3 108? Doctor, doesn't that just shock you? 7- ,A `No, sir. . \ 7 L '4 ' ' : r . ' .5 Q * That: Tyou have# that many .abnormal r|es'ul'tl's, if these,/ are abnormal? 6 \ . A . ..No, "sir. . t 7 i- * r> 7 : ; .. Q Doctor, why didn't you in 1979, and by you, I.mean you at 8 Monsanto, .why didn't you go through the symptoms and thse, lab reports,and .9 talk to the men and tell them what showed up.here and suggest to them that, 10 well,, thsse might be abnormal, but:then again they might not be abnormal . .11 - 12 and you ought to go get more tests .done? ,Whydidn't you do' thatDoctor? - a ; Dr, Suskind may have done that 1 .. "; / 13- Q He may have done that/ ,r / 14 A He. wrote to 80 of them. '\ " 1 ' . 15 Q Then is,what you are saying that.he-in fact did find 80 people 16 - -7, ;to be--to havetabnormalities, .sir? , - 7 \ "A-. 'Nofi'sir.' ,. ' *' / ' 7 V .. \ iLp ; .7 - ' '' 7 18- Q Then why did he write to-80 of them, Doctor?/ ' ^19 \ A" * .Because they asked;them.tb"write to their family doctor. > -`t 20,'1i : 21. , ; :: q .They asked him to. pass on abnormalities, didn't they, 'sir? ; .1 A: ^ 1. j* ?yl1'*s*'* *">\^t'*iTf* * ' / /!*, *\--s% tv-JkJi / .J ' ,, T,,he rie1sultms, o_f-irhis;^examin;atiIo;n*;to\-be sent otn to their f^amily*. . 22 doctor. 'i j . - , 1. 4 1* * - 23 Q / ' And " what -did 'he.tell.them? - ' *f. `,7 *^4lirw,* i1j *^ :^,f=^)jV. /*,,; y\,v_.'*' i ' J<.' '1 k * ./ 24r . r A y I dbn'(t know.. , ' / 7 .^ *-. *u v ,;v^ 71 /; S;V' ii 7 ,''r.- ; r . f.- 1" " ** r* r ' ts '. , PENGAO CO,* BAYONNE/ N.J. 0 7 0 0 2 FORM II 4 0 Q You've never received a copy of what Dr. Suskind concluded as 1 to these people? 2 A No, sir. . , ' rr 3 Q Then he could have concluded that there were 80 sick people, 4 couldn't he, sir? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q Why. didn't you ask Dr. Suskind if 80 of your 108 people were 7 sick and needed treatment? 8 9 A He told the family doctor that they needed treatment. 10 Q Now, Doctor, you had the lab reports yourself, why 'didn't you 11 do something about following up? 12 A r They weren't given to me. 13 Q Doctor, you had the lab results, they were given to you. ,14 A They were given to Monsanto 15 Q Why rdidn't you follow up yourself,sir? A i didn't know we got them. 16 17 Q - By you, X mean Monsanto, not you personally: 18 A '' Dr. Osland did follow, up on three of them: 19 Q On three of them? r-. * J > - 1 . - -V : 20 A . Xn his Judgment, that s all that was indicated. / 'f - ./ \ ^ - - . * : 21 Q Doctor, did Dr. Osiand ever put together a picture here to 22 show who was abnormal'and howimany lipids were abnormal? r ' : - ' Vr' ` 1 i.- 23 A No, sir, but he went through every one of those records. ^ v r; , 1 24 Q Doctor, doesn't it, shock you,that 61 of these people have abnormal. lipids? 1 A No," sir. 2 Q Now,rDoctor, lipids are connected, strongly connected with 3 dioxin exposure, aren't they, sir? 4 A No, sir.t 5 Q You don't even agree with that? 6 A No, sir. 7 Q Now;Doctor, why did Dr.Suskind even attempt to make a 8 correlation between lipids and chloracne if he wasn't thinking about dioxin? 9 10 A He was thinking about it. Q And why dioxin causes lipid abnormalities? 11 A Dioxin in some circumstances has affected lipids. 12 13 Q Doctor, here you've got 61 people. 14 A Yes, sir. Q With abnormallipids? 15 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q Over half ofyour population there with abnormal lipids, doesn't 18 that strike you as strange, Doctor? 19 A Dr. Suskind addressed that in his report.. 'r , ' *\' i 20 Q Well, ha only 'addressed, it with mere reference to chloracne. 21 A Yes, sir. : . " ` 22 ; Q He didn't reference it with .respect to heart disease or prospect!) 23 heart disease or anything; else, he, only talked about it with reference O' 24 chloracne. Doesn't it shock you that over half of your people out -there havle 1 got abnormal lipids? 2 A 1 No, sir. 3 Q Doctor, is it your view that these men with the abnormal porphyrii 4 with the symptoms and the other abnormalities have no connection to dioxin? 5 A Yes^ sir. 6 Q Now Doctor, if that is your view, what is the point In having 7 a study like this? Why even conduct your study if you are'not going to pay 8 any attention to the results of it? Why have these lipids tested? Why 9 have all these other things tested? Why have the porphyrins tested if when 10 you get a positive result you say, well, it doesn't mean anything? Why 11 do it then, sir? 12 A Each one of those results had been evaluated by Suskind. 13 Q That isn't what 1 asked you, Doctor. 14 A Yes, sir. .' 15 Q Would you read my question to him? 16 (Previous question was read by the reporter.) 17 A The lipids were evaluated and discussed by Suskind. IS Q Doctor, that in't ,what I.asked you. . I asked you why do all 19 these tests, ifrwhen you get' the results and'these are positive results, 20 that you don't do anything'about it, you draw-no' conclusions from it? 21 ,, i ^1 ; , ( * " i, A ,WhlcH are th positive results? ' 4J 22 Q The 61 people wltti;,abnormal lipids, the 38 people with abnormal ,_ i 23 porphyrins, the 80 people with other laboratory abnormalities. 24 A The iipids have been1handled by Dr. Suskind. Those without r I chloracne Is the way to look at lipids, those exposed in the plant and ,2 got chloracne or didn't get chloracne, whether they affected the lipids, 3 you look to see whether they've affected them, and you either say based on 4 statistical evaluation there is an excess or there is not; so that they 5 did take care of lipids. And the porphyrins, the porphyrins cannot he .6 evaluated in the form that they were done. 7 1 Q Doctor, on that,point, why didn't you ask for other porphyrin 8 tests if you can't use these? '9 A That should he addressed to Dr. Suskind, it was his study. 10 Q Doctor, would you answer that question, please, sir? II Q I don't know what I would have done If I would have seen the 12 data whn it came out. I didn't see this data. 13 Q Doctor, that isn't what I asked you. .Why ask for the porphyrin 14 tests if you are not going to use it when you get the results? 15 MR. HEINEMAN: Objection, your Honor, that's a different 16 question. . , ., 17 MR. CARR: It is a different question. , 18 THE COURT: Objection is overruled. 19 A Could you repeat the question;, please? 20 " (Previous question was read by the reporter.) 21 A I can't,use porphyrin results if.they are hot given. ' ' * . V, \ 'f J 22 Q Then1why don 'tryou-ask.for more,'then, Doctor? 23 . A Because we didn' t think, that those .negative results by themselves 24 were important. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 IS 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q Then why ask them to start with Doctor? . Dr. Suskind asked for them originally. Q And you approved .it? A No, I didn't approve them. Q . Did you approve it? You paid for it. The protocol was set up, you knew what he was doing, you knew what he did' at Nitro, you knew exactly what he asked at Nitro, you knew he asked for exactly the same laboratory studies that he asked for, and obtained at Nitro, you knew that, didn't ' you, Dr. Rousch? A No, sir. Q You didn't know that? A No, sir. Q Doctor, why is it then that you're paying for something that '- 4 * i you don't know what you are getting? A When you have a consultant, you have to let them do what they want to do. Q And you just didn't know that'he did the-- by you at Monsanto, 1 mean you didn't know that he did the porphyrins? - A The plant probably, knew. ' Q Well,', Doctor,' the plant is you. .Would you please bear in mind that Monsanto is th you that I am talking about? A ' Yes sir. -, f ", - ` ' I / L '- ; 1 ' - , v * '. !" Q Why did you have these done and you knew they were being done if they weren't going to,be .used? \ '' ... 1 A They didn't know they weren't going to be need. 2 Q Why didn't you ask for more samples when these came to you and 3 you saw, you at Monsanto saw that these were not 24-hour samples? 4 MR. HEINEMAN: Objection, your Honor, i t 's been asked and 5 answered. 6 THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue. 7 A We didn't know what the results meant. 8 Q Doctor, you told me that you had worked in the laboratory. 9 A Yes, sir. . 10 Q And you had experience in there? 11 A Yes, sir. ' 12 Q You represented that you did that before you came to Monsanto 13 MR. HEINEMAN: Objection, your Honor, he just demanded that the 14 witness answer on behalf of the Monsanto plant medical department, and 15 now when he says we on behalf of somebody who didn't know the difference^ 16 now he's saying you personally have experience. Sure he' does, but he 17 didn't see them. That's the point. I object to the way that Mr. Carr 18 keeps flip-flopping bn this witness. Let him answer the question, 19 THE COURT: Mr. Carr, you^may proceed. Objection is overruled. 20 Q Doctor, are you suggesting that nobody at Monsanto knew about "i 21 laboratory results.except you,.and that because, you personally did not 22 see them, that you people at^Monsanto weren't.aware of the fact that 23 Metpath was reporting these results?.# v 24 A Yes; sir. 1 Q Is that what you are saying? j 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q All right. Then when did you personally become aware o the 4 fact that Suskind wasn't using these results that Hetp&th reported? S A In his report. 6 Q And Doctor, when you learned that, did you get a hold of Suskind 7- and say, hey, porphyrins are very important. People have said porphyrins 8 can be strong indication of exposure to dioxin and liver disease and liver 9 problems, we ought to get that done,.correctly. Did you tell him that? 10 A No, sir. 11 Q Doctor, doesn't it come down to this, that you at Monsanto 12 and Dr. Suskind determined that you have the best of both worlds, that you 13 order this kind of porphyrin test, if you like the results, you would use 14 it, and you never mention to the world, like Suskind didn't mention in IS Exhibit 1483, won't mention to anybody that these are abnormal porphyrins. 16 If you like the results, you'll use It, if you don't like the results, you 17 say, well, these are void samples, like he did in his final report and 18 like he did in his September ,29-, 1980 report?' *\ ** - \\ , J 1 19 S 'a'i -: \ A I; would; never' approve doing a spot sample for porphyrin. 20 Q Doctor, I ,don*t think you answered my question. <r * 1 * 21 A Would you repeat: the question for me? 22 . (Previous question was read by the reporter.) 23 A No, siri 24 Q Doctor, that's exactly what occurred, though, isn't it? You 1 ordered Suskind andMonsanto, Suskind in behalf of Monsanto ordered these 2 porphyrin tests specifically ordered these urine samples, got the results 3 started to use it in draft number two in Exhibit 1483 never mentioned anywh^ 4 that they were void samples, or not 24-hour samples, never mentioned at all, 5 drew up a table on it, decided that he didn't like what he saw, and then 6 ixi the final report says, well, I can't use them because they are of no 7 real significance? '1 8 MR. HEIHEMAN: Objection, your Honor. I think the question is 9 misleading. If you look at Page 77 of Exhibit 1483 of that Interim draft, io right at the bottom it says the values for coproporphyrin and uroporphyrin ; 11 were from a single void sample, doesn't it, sir? 12 MR. CARR: Indeed It does, but does it say it is of no significant 13 and cannot be used? Does it say- that anywhere in the document? 14 MR. HP-TNEMANt No, but you said he didn't say it was from a 15 single void sample, and he did, and I object to your question as being 16 misleading. 17 MR. CARR: Well, maybe at that time it was misleading, but to 18 make-it precise so,that i t w o n 't mislead anybody" 19 Q 1 He said in September 29th of 1980 that the sample that he was 20 using that he got'was--rcould notrhave significance because it was not a 21 24-hour sample, that's what he said in the-Exhibit 1500, didn't he, sir? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q But now, the Exhibit 1483, which was prepared after September 24 29th, 1980., that is prepared in 1982, you said he doesn't make that 1 statement about these porphyrin results, does he, sir? 2 A In this draft? 3 Q Yes. In that draft, No. 1483 that he wrote and gave you in 4 1982, two years after he said similar porphyrin results can't be used. 5 A But he does mention the spot sample-- 6 Q Doctor, would you answer the question, please? 7 A Could you repeat the question? 8 THE COURT: Doctor, you've got to start listening to these 9 questions more carefully. 10 A I am listening. 11 THE COURT: Well, you don't seem to be remembering any of them. 12 I think you have to try harder to remember them. You may repeat this 13 question. 14 Q Doctor, in 1980 he says on Page 2, "Since the values for 15 urinary coproporphyrin, uroporphyrins, and creatinine were determined from 16 a single void sample, rather than the required ten milliliters aliquot of 17 24-hour volume, it was not possible to interpret significance of levels 18 outside the normal range," did he not, sir? 19 A Yes, sir, apparently so. I didn't read it with you. 20 Q A statement like that does not appear in the document that he 21 created in 1982, that is Plaintiff's Exhibit 1483, does it, sir? 22 A It doesn't make the same statement. 23 Q A statement like this doesn't appear, does it, sir? 24 A No, sir. (J - . > ' j T Kr- l * h' *^ ^ ^( ^ Zr j ` " , , tJ ` ` J` .>/ VZ * , " ^ 1 . , Q , ` And he in factruses those results,, creates a Table 35, didn't ' 2 ^ /he, sir? r ' . / * 1 . " 1 ' ' , 3 ; . - a . Yes, sir/ '. V / / ' '' 1- - , i U -L r . _'r r /' '4 .5 . . Q And now, but later, oh in 1984, he publishes a report dealing >/ m * with the Nitro morbidity study in .which hemakes the same statement, that, 1 ^ :6 7 r k>'S^ he made 1- '*>- A . in ,,,19'80 -V v' L ' V /' Yes. siZinr' .E>v xhi'rbv.iAt*^. 1-< 50,0/; doresn'-t `*h*\:'e>,' .sir? J. .; : -"w' \ \ J ^j. - 1 J` . 8 .;. 9^: 10 No1rw,4` Doctor' , doesn'h*t'* thi*s indicate. ' that w' here *h1e wants'to use ^ the. results, he makes the statement as he did in 1500 and in the; Suskind ^" _ 'S * \ t- v it . u - . r. morbidity Nitro study, but-where he, let me start over again, where he l ii ; j* J 12 wants, to use the results as he 'did in this draft 1483, he.doesn't make the statement that they cannot be, used, does he-, sir? .r _V * 13 : A Not in that draft* 1< ` 15 16 17\ 18 ' . 19 : Q `But when he doesn't want to use the results, he makes the statement, ( *t'~ '*- j '* r y,' '*' r ~.r ~~ " " Ifi J v ' . .i doesn't! He, sir, :as'^he Hid in;.1980 ;and as he did again In, 1984?; ; V' -i< y* r t / J , , ! ; -1/ -` / .`. *j . i ; , v /' ; '. ' 1. 1 J , -- .' -" V ,J. , rr' . ^ - . -' .t .V j v - ' `-'i ' v r; t ` i( ` *, ' ' ' ' A ' ' - ` Yes,\ ' s* ir\.->/ ' i "V: V j v ? ,y ' - V *' * .r1 - ' : ' Q So doesn't that indicate, Doctor1, that when he wants to use if, " - iV'* i>-j`, Ai { `s, ' .1 ;r *, : : \ : ,, - ,,Vi , \ ' * ' .. ` he'll treat them as valid?/ / -- ` \* 2 0 ' . ,. - A T j " Nbv'rsir; _Z ; ' \ L` i . ' 'rl tA ' ^ 1 - ' ' ' 21, q r^% He d_ld treat them as valid in Exhibit 1483, didn't he, sir? / 22 1- . .A -- ` . But that was a.draft. ' J '2 3 '; - q 1 2 4 ' v' . he, sir? u J .\ f\ i\ Excuse me,-he did. treat them as valid in Exhibit 1483, didn't. , dp 1' ' j. * " -" 1 . r* .- P, ^ V- *r j ,r, t p * ' ^ P- > " J" ^ -r Jr ' - J J # 1 j 1 BAYONNE; , N.J 1 A Yes. > 2 Q Yes. Doctor, you have also, do you recall an Inquiry that was 3 made of Monsanto based upon a statement by Ralph Nader In which he suggested 4 that your people at Sauget were exposed to dioxin, and that they face a 5 higher cancer risk, do you recall that, sir? 6 A No, sir. 7 MR. HEINEMAN: Objection, the question Is hearsay. 8 MR. CARR: I 'm sorry? 9 MR. HEINEMAN: He's Injecting hearsay Into this question. Is 10 there something, Is there a document we can look at? 11 > MR. CARR: Well, surely, I always ask the question relating 12 to documents, you know that. 13 THE COURT: Objection Is overruled. Go ahead. 14 Q But first.of all, 'da you recall .such an Incident? i ( , i* r * J ^ [ T t\ " " ' r , L 15 A No, 'sir.. 16 (Plaintiff?s^Exhibit 1510 was marked for identification.) 17 Q I hand you what has been marked Plaintiff's Exhibit 1510 and I 18 ask you to look at that,,pleased. You recognise that as a document 19 created by,Daniel L. Bishop for and on behalf of Monsanto? 20 A Yes -.sir. 21 Q And It relates to the health of Monsanto employees, does it not, 22 sir? 23 A I don't know, I haven't read it yet. 24 Q Well, do you want to read it so you can be apprised of It? Have ^ J\p-` r r 1 - /^. : * ' '' ' 1 .. ,J^" r- r '* 1 A > V. j<f *v',- 'f 164 tV' ^ ,.i - 1 . youhad'airopportunity toread it, Doctor? ". , 1 r 'r * y - ^ fk . -2 - A ; Yes> sir, /. . jh " `r * -^ f j-. F ^ 3,,1 ; -Vj - '.q , You now recall the subject matter' Doctor? 1 \ ; ->.A, No/ sir, I wasn't a part of that..; *' 4 V. j .. s ; 1 Q Doctor, you're not^ you have hot been aware of what has been - 'said about Sauget and Nitro exposure? J *6 -// ; v, A, : Not this, I haven't seen. tA ' 7., ' ' " .. 'v,,; - ; / / * 8 Q. * Doctor^ you may -not have seen this particular:, piece of paper. , ' .9/ . " What I am asking you, are you familiar with the subject' of it, sir? / A Nb, sir. ^ . .. / '' 10 ` ' ,'_>j / - _ '-( ^ , - 11: y Q You're not familiar .with the NIOSH,. the study?. '1 1.2 * ,/'W ;A:;:/The NI0SH,, y/es-,.,'/STiJrV I know about'that`v J* -t J'' 1' J "py ,j ... ' .J j- - 13 .Q All*iright.r Andyou; are7familiarwith the fact that Ralph Nader ^ ' (, '\,* tf-^ ,,- -\v1*. 1t;:4 *Vr-T-*u\ a^>:.N ; '(I ^` .. .... - < : ' 14 V had-a press, conference relating to it, sir?'*; 15 . v , MR. HEINEMAN:;';Objection^ your Honor. He's trying to sneak v xi f i.v,' *S .... ' y1`' ^ lii what's In the document without laying a foundation for its admission. /' \16 J | ' j i"- j' r ' r ' " '` ~ ?* 7 -- -V-^ ^ *' \ ~ f'v ' %i - ~ , He-hasn't- even moved its 'adn^osionjyvahd^I^pbject to it. . .. `17 K1 18k ' 1 MR.CARR: I'm in the process of establishing a foundation, if 19 it please the Court. j ,-s; ` - 20 / L f ''21 - J.>' ;THE-COURT;. Objection'is overruled. You may continue. fr *Doctor,, were you familiar, with that fact that: he held a pressQ 22 .> conference? ^ . - V ' . 23 : A 24- ; , , q 1 Are-you-familiar With the, well, you.are familiar with the fact PENGAO CO*. BAYONNE. N.J. 07002 FORM. It. 24 B 1 that NIOSH came to Monsanto in 1970, aren't you, sir? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q And they inspected records at the Nitro and Sauget plant, you 4 do know that, don't you, sir? 5 A I'm not sure how they got the information, but we are a part 6 of their registry. A 7 Q Now, Doctor, Bishop is in charge of public relations for 8 Monsanto, isn't he, sir? 9 A Yes, sir. 10 Q And this is a document created by Bishop? 11 A Apparently so. 12 Q And he got the information about what NIOSH did from your 13 medical department, didn't he, sir? 14 A I would assume so. 15 Q And Doctor, these persons that got copies of this, do they 16 Include people in the department of medicine and environmental health? 17 A No, sir. 18 Q Isn't Kerney associated with that group? 19 A No, sir. 20 Q Frazier? 21 A No, sir. 22 Q Elsworth? 23 A No, sir. 24 Q Doctor, did Bishop have access to your medical records, that is, 1 by you, I mean the department of medicine and environment for the purposes 2 of preparing press reports and press releases? 3 A X don't know where he got the information. 4 Q My question is, does he have access to those records? 5 A No, sir. 6 Q Does he have the right to call you or any of your subordinates, 7 any of the other employees, and ask questions about what you know? 8 A Yes, sir. 9 Q And Doctor, is it true that the NIOSH people did compile a 10 list of registry of the people who may have been exposed to dioxin? 11 A I believe so. 12 Q And Doctor, do you believe that it was true that your employees 13 were fully aware of any potential past exposure? 14 MR. HEINEMAN: Objection, your Honor. Now Mr. Carr is clearly 15 trying to get in. 16 MR. CARR: I'll offer this Exhibit, if it please the Court. 17 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1510 was offered into evidence.) 18 MR. HEINEMAN: There is absolutely no foundation laid for the 19 admission of this document. It is hearsay. This witness has never seen 20 it, nobody in his department's ever seen it, he's never heard of it before. 21 There is no foundation whatsoever for its admission. 22 MR. CARR: It is a document created by Daniel Bishop, who is a 23 public spokesman for Monsanto and it has been produced to us by Mr. Helnema 24 MR. HEINEMAN: That doesn't establish a foundation for its I admission into evidence 2 MR. CARR: It surely does. 3 THE COURT: It ie admitted over objection. 4 (Plaintiff*8 Exhibit 1510 was admitted into evidence.) 5 Q Doctor, my question Is, do you believe that your employees are 6 fully aware of any potential past exposure? 7 A I think our employees are aware. 8 Q Doctor, my question Is, Bishop makes the statement here, does 9 he not, "I can tell you he makes a statement to the people from the Post 10 Dispatch and Independent Network News, according to this document that our 11 employees are fully aware of any potential past exposure," does he not, 12 sir? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q You know In point of fact and we established this morning 15 that your employees were told an untruth about their potential exposure, 16 weren't they, sir? 17 A Not an accurate statement. 18 Q Doctor, we established this morning that this statement prepared 19 here by Mr. Park was a lie, didn't we, sir? 20 A It's Incorrect. 21 Q Didn't we establish this morning that It was a lie? 22 A No, sir. 23 Q Didn't you agree with me, sir, that It was a lie? 24 A It's incorrect. / , ,j. Ir '/ . /; 79,Jo 1 \ ' : * , ^ f t .* `7 1'''* i,i.i-J'iv<; rj - ' 168 \ -` - ' . v L-r _ , u' JvL*.*v iV^,,J ^ ; .r\ J ' ,< m %J, 1 1 , . 11 '/ Q- Doctor, my/,question' is, jdid: you not agree with me this morning ;2 .when I asked you and. you're .under oath now,.Dr. Rousch, did you not agree /' / i-i;'} \ > i>-&; i'U \f-t/ % f .'. 3 " with me this morning that'it was a lie? A A I `idon't recall. 5;J Q Now, Doctor, these employees who inquired .of Monsanto in this, 6 by means/of this memo or what the'information would divulge, .they were not , ( ' 7 . r - ' t j . * 1 , J" ' tl., r ", * p , * | \ " 1 '' * , `` . .' n . .i -* 7 ;fully aware of; past potential ,exposure, were.they, sir? -8 '-,,A, , It wasn't dealings with our employees. 9 * Q Sir?;. 1 ' 7 V ';. , id 11 1 A . That is a request from Washington.. / ' , s` \. J- Q Doctor/ are you looking at .the same paragraph that I am looking : " 1 12 at? This is Daniel Bishop , your press relation, spokesman.: !, ;/ 7 13 . 'A. Yes, .sir.. ` l-`' / J -7 - " 14 Q He prepared this document, did he not, sir? 15 (^ " -A >. Yes, sir. .* . ., v 1 -1 PEN G A D .C O .. BAVOWNEi N.J. 0 7 0 0 1 FORMI IL I 4 B , 16 . : Q Ahd/doesn't he'say, "I don't knowwhether NIOSH./informed pur 17/, workers who made the registry,`but I can tell you that; pur-employees are / 18' fully aware of any potential'past exposure,", doesn't he say that?v / 1? ' ' V -A . Yes,, sir. J-7.J7 >' / 20 21 *, .' Q 4( /A'. ;And that statement is nottrue,- is it, sir? , . 7 .-V., ' 1---``J r ' J 7 -' ` I'm not sure they're fully aware, but they're..aware of past . 22 exposure. 23 , 24' f. Q . 'A Doctor,, my question is.that statement is nottrue, is it, sir? I don't know.'- 7' L ,F Q Well, you know from the evidence-- strike that. Do you know of 2 any bulletin put out by Krummrich, put out by anybody that would show that 3 these people have been told that they were exposed to dioxin? 4 A I can't recall any. 5 Q Doctor, what they're told from time to time is exactly like 6 what they were told in October of 1979 by the suggestion of Mr. Park that 7 several analyses have indicated dioxin levels below what's found by OSHA, 8 and we're still checking. That's what they have been told time and again, 9 isn't that correct, sir? 10 A Mo, sir. 11 Q Doctor, weren't they told as far as this very report that we're 12 talking about, weren't they told by you at Monsanto that there were no 13 significant health problems found by Suskind? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q And in point of fact, that's not the truth, is it, sir? 16 A Mo, sir. 17 Q And you know it's not the truth because you've seen these lab 18 reports and he made no such finding, did he, sir? He never did find that 19 there was "no significant health problem at the Krummrlch plant," did he, 20 sir? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q Where did he make that finding, Doctor? 23 A The form of writing said he-- 24 Q Excuse me, Doctor, where did he make that finding? t. . * *,, - it . 1. A No, sir, he'doesn't. 2 Q Indeed, he doesn't, but you told your employees that he did 3 find there were no significant health problems at Krummrich, didn't you, 4 sir? 5 A Yea, sir. 6 Q When in fact he didn't make that finding, did he, sir? 7 A Yes, he did. 8 Q Well, then, Doctor, I'll ask you again, where is the finding 9 that he made? 10 A The form in which it was written describes it.J 11 Q We want through that, Doctor, and he makes no mention of 12 health problems whatsoever, whether they have them or don't have them, he 13 makes no finding that they have no significant health problems, does he, 14 sir? 15 A Yes, sir. 16 Q Where does he? J- 17 A There. Is no specific statement like that, that's 'correct. 18 , (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1511 was. marked for identification.) 19 Q Now, Doctor, I'll hand you Plaintiff's Exhibit 1511 and see if 20 you recognize that as a Krummrich publication or part of a Krummrich 21 publication. 22 A Yes, sir. 23 MR. CARR: I offer-- -well, counsel hasn't seen it yet, your Honor. 24 Now I'll offer 1511 into evidence. - * 1/ * +'*\\ *-V'- ,i- .1" i s ,, lr ., S* 1,' ^. ' ' ^1 -, ( l*% .. *. *J *i..' * * ' -` ' .. Jj :'. . 1 ' (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1511 was offered Into evidence.) J ,1 2 THE COURT: Any objection? 3 MR. HEINEMAN: He made the offer as he handed It to me, Judge, 4 I haven't had a chance to read It yet. 5 Q Doctor, while he's looking at that, I might ask you a few more 6 questions on this press release. He makes a statement there that the 7 LNitro employees have been the.subject of several epidemiological studies S both outside, results of these medical studies have been compared with 9 these employees both in general and specifically as they related to one 10 person, do you see that, sir? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Well, that's not true, either, is it, sir? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q Doctor, were the employees told about the 28.cancers that were 15 reported to Suskind as we went into the other day in one of these exhibits? 16 Were they, sir? 17 A 1 can't answer that. 18 Q Doctor, do you have any Information that they were ever told 19 that 28, not 14, but that there were 28 cancers reported to Suskind in 1 20 the Nitro study? ' 21 A Dr. Suskind went to Nitro and talked to them about results of 22 /his study, following the study he went there and spent several hours 23 discussing the results of his study-- Q Ware you ever told, hey, there are 28 of you that have reported *Kr ''i I>it 'i ' - **?* <; ^ h* ,*** } ' 1i 1! i */ :172 ArtVr ;1 cancers to me, or 28 cancers have'been reported to me, rather? 2 :j '`A ' _I don' 1 think' there were 28 .3 .- Q - Doctor, we went through that already, have we not? Twenty-seven 4: or twenty-eight, we've got one,questionable here, 27 cancers. Did you ever '5 ' see any docinnent that-he reported that tothose people? . 6 / \>A I don't think there were 27. ' - 7 / Q . Now; Doctor, assume that you have;agreed that, there were; 27 ; 1 '8 *- that were reported to Dr*. Suskindwould you assume that, please; sir?. it - v ,,> - . . "^ 1 -r 9 r * A" Tea,.sir.' ,; 10 n <. Q ,*.J , 4 Was the ' ,, 4"- employees, at `m l Nitro " ever . told '' ' , that', -,,t' To'T y*our`f-JkrnJowle-d'g\e- ? . "J *J * ' % ' ' 1*' 1 4 `J 11 . f ^ ' \ ; MR. HEINEMAN: Objection, that's-a different question. First' J 12 vH ~ i'"Tt .* - \ *\ *, L ",r" he said reported to Suskind, and then Ke asked the witness to agree, that ,13/ . there were,'and that's two, different things/ I think it's misleading. 14; 'THE COURT: Objectionoverruled. It is-not misleading. - i ' 15. A , I know that .they were told the'results of the study, but, I - 16 -N 17 ` don't know.what he said.* , \' ' ` ", L'-'- ;3- . ^ Q Well, you know they were told what he published^ you know that, . 18 don't you, sir? 19 20 / 21 22` 'A ' Yes, sir. .. 1 _ ', ' ^ ' i `* 1 \ i . r ^ ~ >. J O' ' Q But he published only the existence of 14 cancers as reported torhim,- a histoty of 14''cancers, ^didn't he, sir? .. A , Yesy sir. r' ///.' * vr* 1 - 23 . Q He didn't publish-27 cancers, did he, sir? ' .' *24 ' Ho, sir. P'~ K j?~, '.kfr w-l . <, r .t"H V . -v. i, ^ `' ..j-'J r-r:^ V : ;v", i ' `t;/v V; ' "' '. `t Oy- V. >\ )rf^ ,07001 FORM IL 24 B n 173 3 1 Q: Do you have any information that he was, that they were told 2 ! anything other .-than what was, published? r- -3 A Nb,; sir, . v ' ; . * , 'r '4 ;; ' ,Q , Now, Doctor, you've also said^here that "our workers are not 5 suffering from any chronic or lastring health' effects"from exposure to 6' dioxin," now these reports that Dr. Suskind got from the laboratoryand 7 - thse findings that were shown in the laboratory show that these;health . .8, ffects .camfi or lasted long after exposure to dioxin in' many-,of these 9 .10 11' 12 1 men, didn't they, sir? > , ^ ` ' ' ; / A . No, sir, - ' ' . ' Q " They did not, sir?^ ; r r 1A \ No,^sir,' J. . . t j ' , - r > ^ ' .r -13 Q . Only a relatively few.*parts/ of these people presently working in 14 chlorinated pheno^department, Dr. Rousch? j' 15 ' k( f 17 18 19 20 21 22,' 23. 24 - A . Yes', 'sir. - .`r ; - , 'r -. \ _.y - - ,.- 1 *- `Jj- . r-* ", Q ,Oyer half of them had their exposure years prior to this study,-' isn't that correct, sir?^ A ' V I don't know.' Q Well, the reports that,'the"lab reports you have show these abnormalities in. these men and'they are not justchloracne, are they, sir? \ '. A No, sir. \ "\j "' : .- MR., GARR: Your; Honor;' I see I've gone past, it's five aifter 'v"i i i'iw-iV, - >.-lv >"*>>' bsJ i- ' 'v, . -l Vv,. 1 ^ -'5 lJ' ,,. '> ti-,-:, '-/r' " V. - fourr,, I'm sorry. .; fi*;-:v v' ^ 2 ' .- . ,r " THE COURT1: . All'right,':ladies .and .gentlemen, Vj `j`>' - ' we'll adjourn )tv.-V-VV^I-\Av *'(---A*v*;1 ; -t J,J-^,/. i, ->* i, >r v* ' ^ 4 i- ^ , 0rini'wuoj ooo :r>* *3nnoaq "pa avoua. ] for the day at this. time. We'll start again tomorrow morning at nine 2 o'clock. I would-remind you besides the regular admonishments at any 4i . . .`.i i1-r ' * ', * 3 break, that you are not to read, listen to, or watch anything about this 4 case in particular or subject matter In general. Thank you for everything. I 5 The Court Is adjourned. 6 (At this time Court adjourned for the day.) 7 8 9. 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 BAYONNE, N.J. 07002 FORM I L . I B 1 INDEX -2 ' WITNESSES: f J1 j 083` : . GBOBCE- ROPSCH , 4' y5 - Continued Cros* \Exatalnation by Me. C a rr * ' J ,V L - i' ^ * , V." / Pag r - 6" .EX H IB ITS : , - . ,J; / 1 ^ ` P la in t if f 18 1695A 8' - P la in t if f ' 1495B , . .v" 9 , P la in t if f ' ll 1496 . 10 V P la in t if f 's . 1495a .` ' ` n .,1 P la in t if f 's . 1497 . ' , '12*/j r. .P la in t i f f ' s 1497A 13 P la in t if f 's 1498 - 14 P la in t if f 's .1498Ak .. Harked H" j v 2'1 ; -5^ - 2 j ; . O ffered ;, . ' Admiti . i -'' Vi' - ^- 2 ' r71, ; 2 2 : 2 r,;. 3. '-- Jj 'w*v - -1 4 V . - 14, . '* w : 3; . . ; ' V. : ^ i- V , 3 .: .-' ; i '4 '' V 14 , L. J S. ! " - ' 18 3 -3 .. w 15 18 . /' i s ; * t 18 15- P la in t if f 's 1499 16 ' ,17 ` P la in t if f ' s 1500 . ' P l a i n t i f f 1501 . V: 25- -V - ^ 27 V- - r 35; * ' " . . 25 \ 36L ` LV , 26 7 : 36 37 18-. P la in t if f 's 1501A 37 r 37 37 1 }9 \ - -20. ; ' ' P la in tiff's 1`50A21V*i'; * ,-r ^ P la in t if f ' 1503,,, 55r C '. -AJ ; `-f` ' / ,A v a; J ` 'i ,. j;-> * ' - ;v.j*- Vy( t^ -V 58. . 55 `58 C' 'f 55 59 y , r . i ' : '*i' - 1504 75 .7 621 P la in tiff'a K-f \ ; r \ . , r\ ' V ? , ' ; j> if.' \ >,-^v -h' ^v^:"1 / , L* -- 22 .. P la in t if f ' 1505 > ' 92 79 y' 23 1506 92' ' . ,, ..P la in t if f ' y - ` ) " -f ' : - '> . \ v -^- !*: -i'a- i >^ ,92 , / . 1* -j 193 24 ; _ P la in t if f 's 1507 96' * * r a _ii ". / ., . . ,, ' - , O' ' 1r. ,-v' w ' ' v,, ; ; --1 ` ^1, V- 1 * i* 1 V; 1 2 EXHIBITS: 3 Plaintiff's 1508 4 Plaintiff's 1509 5 Plaintiff's 1510 6 Plaintiff's 1511 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 INDEX Cone Harked 11? 124 163 170 Offered 120 125 . 166 171 Admitted 120 126 167 i iW v- - 175 _J i `,2 STATE OF ILLINOIS . COUNTY. OF S5Tt,; S ) . * i`-.<V , ' v V;.' : : " V,.- - v, n.'!;' , . . ,3 ' :> '\-5 6 "J' - 8, - ,\ mfr f*,\ -* f-v/^ t-'-.'iV j u"1; >. '--1' ;j.;-. ' . - r - ^' ` ' ,'f ; ,^ Xr /; r '' % V r' ,**;^ .: ,L; ^ ( V ' 1 2 , `i' V C y : _ J ' f - V ' f r - ' .- ' J`, 1 . ' t r- ' 1 ' ' 1 'r , r . . ' , J V. . ^\ X, RICHARD P. GOLDENHERSH, -Circuit Judge in and.for the . . Twentieth Judicial1Circuithereby certify that.the above is a true and 9 - .10, 11, ' 12 'correct transcript of the proceedings had in the case captioned: .FRANCES E.KEMNER, et al., v. MONSANTO -COMPANYf,Cause No,;80-L-970, heard ,on July 16,' 1985.^ - - r. \ ... .<; . ' ^ DATED this day of July,' 1985; 1 13 14 ENTER:. :!5 16 RICHARD ?. GOLDENHERSH, Circuit-Judge 17., 18 19 20 . -21 22. ; 23 - 24 , - j . , ... SAVONNE, . N.J. SAVONN N J , 07002 FORM IL 24 B