Document pp78LYb2Qa2zBM4L9v23q1Gj7

FILE NAME: Wagner (WAG) DATE: 1988 Sept 21 DOC#: WAG020 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Legal - Deposition of Edward C. Rabn /" -- 1 --- ------ ------------------- ------- IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF DELAWARE- IN AND FOR NEW CASTLE COUNTY In Re : Asbestos Litigation ) C.A. ) C.A. ) C.A. ) C.A. ) C.A. ) C.A. ) C.A. ) C.A. 86C-MY-13 85C-JA-155 8 6C-AU-7 0 8 4 C - M Y - 1 4 5' 85C-FE-10 85C-NO-119 86C-JN-160 (Bjorson) (J e n k i n s ) (L o w e ) (Bradley) { F a r r a l 1) (Graham) (Hearn) (Fernandes) IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF DELAWARE In Re: Asbestos Litigation ) ) C.A. 86-435 (Wells) (LON) In Re: Asbestos Litigation ) ) C.A. 85- 0 3 (IIo r e a n ) ( J J F ) Deposition of EDWARD C. RABON taken pursuant to notice at the lav; offices of Jacobs & Crumplar, P .A ., 2 East 7th Street, Suite 400, Wilmington, Delaware, beginning at 1:15 p.m. on Wednesday, S e p t e m b e r 21, 1988, before Heather C-. Slate, Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public in the State of Delaware. APPEARANCES : V A RY A NN MAT U SZEWSKI, Esq. Jacobs & Crumplar, P.A. 2 East 7th Street - Suite 400 Wilmington, Delaware 19801 for Plaintif fs 913 Market WILCOX & FETZER Street Mall - Wilmington, (302) 655-0477 Delaware 19801 A-85 Wcox & Fetzer Registered Professions! Reporters SW 2 6 1988 E d w a r d C. R a b n 38 1 his signature. It's a letter he wrote. 2 MS . YOUNG : T h a t 's not what y o u 're 3 a s k i n g h i m . You 1're asking him what his state of 4 m i n d was at that t ime . j 5 MS . KATUSZE'r;SKI: No, I'm not. 6 MS . YOUNG : He's airea dy said he 7 doesn't remember getting or sending those letters 8 BY MS. MATUSZEWSKI: 9 Q. Mr. Rabon, is it your t e s t i m o n y today that 10 you don't know what Asbestos S t e e p i n g Comp o u n d is? 11 A . 12 Q. Yes, that is my testimony. Is it your test i m o n y today that you did not 13 kn o w wha t it was January 31st, 1969? j 14 A . I can't answer. I don't knov,- what I thought 15 in J a n u a r y 20 years ago. I just h o n e s t l y don't 16 know. I'm not being evasive. I just don't know. 17 Q. And it's your testimony that all the powders 18 that you dealt with at Charles W a g n e r could not hurt 19 a nyo ne ? 20 A. Except possibly from inhalation. I've 2 1 a l r e a d y indicated that there was a -- There's always t 22 a dust hazard from anything. You can stand out here 23 on the cor n e r of Delaware A v e n u e and get ple n t y of 24 it. If you stand there long enough, it will affect Wilcox J & Fetzer Reguiered Professional Reporters A-86 E d v a r d C. R a b n 1 you. My point is that -- The first question was 2 fire or explosion hazards. The answer is no, no 3 e x p l o s i o n hazards. The second question is -- 4 Q. To what? That's what I want to know. 5 A. To Asbestos Sweeping - - To any powder of thi 6 type we sold. 7 Q. Or to Asbestos Sweeping Compound? 8 A. If we sold it, it had to be a powder . o/ "Our Process Hazards Committee must 10 establish" -- It says, "We are using or planning to 11 use your product, Asbestos Sweeping C o m p o u n d . " 12 MS. YOUNG; Excuse me. Is there a 13 q u e s t i o n pending? 14 MS. M.ATUSZEWSKI : I think there was. 15 MS. YOUNG: Could I have it read back. 16 (The Reporter read back as follows: 17 "Question: And i t 's your testimony 18 that all the powders that you dealt with at 19 Charles Wagner could not hurt anyone?") 20 THE WITNESS: I didn't testify to that 21 22 pending ? MS. YOUNG: Okay. What's the question 23 BY MS. M A T U S Z E W S K I : 24 Q . So now you're saying that you didn't say the A -87 Wiicox & Fetzer Registered Professional Reporters E d w a r d C. R a b n 4 0 1 powders Charles Wagner sold couldn't hurt anybody? 2 A. Am I making a deposition or -- I resent the 3 type of question and the manner in which you're 4 d o i n g it, just for the record. j i 5 Q. Your attorney is here to make the 6 obj e c t i o n s . 7 A. I'm tryi n g to be as honest and fair as I can 8 and I always have been and I'll swear before God I'm 9 d o i n g it n o w . I'm being b a d g e r e d . 1 O MS. YOUNG: If there is a question, ask 1 1 it. he' 11 see if he can answer it 12 BY M S . MATUSZEWSKI : 13 Q. Is it your testimony that the powders 14 Char l e s Wag n e r sold coul c not hurt anyone? 15 A . No, it is not my testimony 16 Q. What were you re ferring to in your letter of 17 J a n u a r y 31st, 1969 if you did not k n ow what Asbestos 18 S w e e p i n g C o m p o u n d was? 19 MS. YOUNG: Obj ection 20 MR. GABAY: Objection 21 MR. MARLIN: Objection. \ J 22 MS. YOUNG: Asked and a n s w e r e d . D o n 't 23 a n s w e r that. Move on. 24 BY MS. K A T U S Z E W S K I : A- 88 Wilcox & Fetter Registered Pmfesstor.sl Reporters Edward C . Rabn 4 1 1 Q. Mr. Rabn, I want you to read your response 2 to o n e , two, and t h r e e . 3 A. Response to f irst one is -- 4 MS . YOUNG : Do you want him, to read ir 5 out loud? It's in the record. : ; 6 MS. MATUS Z EWSK I ; Mo. 7 BY MS. MATUS ZEWSKI : 8 Q. What did you think there was no fire or 9 explosion hazard to? ' 10 A. Any povder that we sold. ! i 1211 Q . Under number two, it reads, "It is n o n -1o x ic ^ l , l and only normal precautions against any ousty | 13 m a t e r i a l need be exercised." What did ypu think 14 that was referring to? 15 A. Any powder that we sold at that time. Both ; i 16 these questions or answers are at that time. This j 17 is 20 years a g o . _ j 18 Q. Okay. And for number three, what did you j 19 think that referred to? 20 A. Any powdered material that we sold, which is j 21 what we sold. Any of the powders we sold at that 22 time . 23 q . Could you tell me if you did any research or 24 the powders that you sold at that time to determine A- 8 9 Wilcox & Fetter Registered Professional Reporters r~ ' ' E d w a r d C. R a b n 4 2 .... ....................................... -- --- 1 w h e t h e r or not any of them we r e toxic? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Could you tell me whether or not you asked 4 anyone whether or not any of the powders, which you 5 sold were toxic? > 6 A. Our p rincipals told us that. 7 Q. Excuse me? 8 A. Our principals told us they were not toxic. 9 Q. Who told you that asbestos was not toxic? 10 A. No one. 11 MR. MARLIN: O b j e c t i o n as to form. 12 MS. M A T U S Z E W S K I : I'll rephrase it. 13 B Y M S . K A T U S Z E W S K I : j 14 Q. Did anyone ever tell you asbestos was not 15 toxic? 16 A. No. Not tomy knowledge. 17 Q. Did you ever have any r e s e a r c h done to 18 d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r or not asbestos was toxic? 19 A. No.V7e never have research done on 20 anything. We're stri c t l y a sales organization. 21 Q. Did you ever ask any industrial hygienist 22 w h e t h e r or not asbestos was toxic? 1 23 A . 24 Q. No. Did you ever ask any medical doctor whether A - 90 Wilcox & Fetter c^isiered Professional Reporters Edward C . Rabn 4 3 5 1 asbestos vas toxic? 2 A. No . 3 Q. Did you ever ask anyone from ACL whether j 4 asbestos was toxic? j 5 KS . YOUNG: 6 Corporation Limited? Ey "ACL, " you mean Asbestos 7 8 A. KS. KATUSZENSKI: Right. No, I don't recall. I may add that ve rely j 9 on our principals to inform us 'without us ashing. ' ; i 10 Q. Do you recall whether or not Asbestos | 11 C o r p o r a t i o n Limited ever informed you vheuher or not j 12 asbestos was toxic? 13 A. At that time, no. ! ' ! 14 Q. Did you check any medical or scientific ! 15 literature, journals, to determine whether or nor j j 16 asbestos was toxic? i 17 A. No. We're talking 20 years ago now. 18 Q. I realize that. That's what I'm asking. 19 And at the time that you wro t e the January 31st, 20 1969 letter, isn't it true that you'd done no 2 1 research, conducted any studies, or looked into any i i ; 22 scientific or medical journals as to whether or not 23 asbestos was toxic? 24 A. Charles A. Wagner Company did none of that, A- 91 -- Wilcox & Fetzer -------------------------------------- Registered Professional Reporters t,a w a r a C. R a t o n 1 that's correct. 2 Q- Whet were the other types of powders that 3 you dealt with? *A1 A. Clay in several different forms.. Talc. And i 5 we had a host of natural abrasives, we call then, 6 punice stone, bar ires, a product which is natural 7 Ke sold w hat w e 1o o se 1y desc r i b e as 8 ra 1s to cist incuish then fro r.i eh e o imest it h o u t exception, io- Ui1vc \*< -_V-CSN 10 natu r a l ! y pined products. 1h ev '.-ere > i c iated ground pc\;c e rs and rut in bars iy a ru ctursr and se nt no us icr r e s a l e . 1" r, r -y - c u eve r r L G 1' t o c l av as as j;e st c s 1 " ho . 1 5 Did you ever refer to talc as a s b a a tos? - c, ho . I7 Q . Did you ever refer to any of the powders 18 that ou dealt with ether than asbestos as asj.es 19 ho . 20 | Q. i 2 1 1988 At the tine that you -wrote the letter, had you done any research January 31st, as to whether 2 2 or not asbestos required any special handling 23 p r e c a u t i o n s ? 2 4 MR. MARLIN: Can we have that question A- 92 Wiico.x & Fct ~er .'iwrLc: Profcs5i'or,al Repoucr; Edward C Rabn 45 1 read back, please. 2 M S . K A T U S Z E W S K I I'll restate it. U S'? 3 BY MS. M A T U S Z E W S K I : 4 Q. At the time that you wrote the January 31st, 5 19 69 letter, had you or anyone at Charle:s Wagner 6 done any research as to whether or not asbestos 7 required any special handling precautions? 8 A. No. 9 Q. At the time that you wrote the January 31st, 10 1959 letter, did you ever ask anyone whether or not 11 asbestos needed any special handling precautions? 12 A . No. 13 Q. Did youeverconsult any literature, any 14 industrial hygienist, any medical journals as to 15 whether or not asbestos needed any special handling 16 precau t i o n s at the time of the January 31st, '69 17 letter? 18 A. No. 19 Q . At the time that you wrote the January 31st, 20 1969 letter, isn't it true that you had done no 2 1 r e s e a r c h nor investigation as to whether < or not 22 asbestos required special handling precautions? 23 A. You just asked methat. I'vealready said 24 no. Nor do we do it on any of our products because \V7icox & F e t z e r y Registered Professional Reporters A-93 Z~} Edward C . Rabn 53 1 A. W e l l r the subject of the letter is manual of 2 testing procedures. And they refer to that and 3 they're e x p l a i n i n g some of the features of the new 4 manual, which they enumerate. . 5 Q. Do you recall w h e t h e r or not the! manual ever 6 contained anything about safety or hazards of 7 asbestos ? 8 A. I don't actually recall that. Q MR . G A B A Y : O b j e c t i o n to the forra. 1 0 MS . YOUNG: You can answer. 11 A . Well / I ccr.'t recall, no. 12 Q 13 A. Further on, there's a June 28, 1957 letter. '57 o r '6 7? i} 14 Q . '57 . 15 MR . G A BA Y : Give me a second h e r e . 15 What is it? What was the date a g a in ? 17 MS . M A TUSZEWSKI: June 28, 1957. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 BY MS. M A T U S Z E W S K I : 20 Q. How did the asbestos come from ACL to 21 Charles Wagner? } 22 A. In b a g s , usually in boxcar or t r u c k s , 2 3 d e p e n d i n g upon size of shipment, usually. A -i 24 Q. This refers to a s h i p m e n t of 6D, which I A -94 1 y-A ~ Wilcox & Fetzer Regutered Professional Reporters ... i- fcjjaT.Ay.Ste Edward C. Rsbon 54 1 assume is an asbestos fiber. 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. Injute? Am I correct? 4 A. That means burlap. We callit burlao down I 5 there, they call it jute up here. 1 6 Q. The bags that it came in, was it paper or 7 burlap? I'm confused by this letter. 8 it's both . It seems like VQ A. It says, "This will acknowledge your letter 10 of June 21st conce r n i n g a recent shipment of 6D m 11 j u t e . " That means in burlap bags. 1 2 MS. YOU liG : If you're going to read it 1 3 out loud, you have to read it slow enough for her to 14 do t h a t . 15 BY MS. K A T U S C E W S K I : 16 Q. The question is did the asbestos you 17 received from Asbestos Limited Corporation come in 18 bags of jute or bags made of paper? 19 MR. G A B A Y : Are we talking about this 20 specific shipment or are we talking about -- 2 1 MS. MATUS ZE W S K I : We're talking about I 22 in g e n e r a l . 1 23 A. In general, they came in paper bags. But 24 o riginally they came in jute. This is 1957 and I Wilcox & Fetter Re^uterec! Professional Reponers a- Edward C . Rabn 55 1 can only assume the changeover took place sometime 2 around that time. I don't know the date, though. 3 In fact, if you read on, they say on certain date 4 they'll change off either to jute or paper or i 5 pressure packed, which is still a third method. 6 Q. You don't recall about when the changeover 7 happened? 8 A. Other than what it says here, from 9 A u g u s t 1st on, it says. 1 0 0. And the last one I'll ash you to takea look j 11 at Is a January 13th, 1570 letter. 12 last one, actually. I thinkit's the j j 13 MR. G A B A Y : Yes, it is. j 14 THE WITNESS: Yes . 15 BY MS. M A T U S S E W S K I : 16 Q. And it's a letter a d d r e s s e d to you -- 17 A . Right. 18 Q. -- from P. E. Leclerc fromAsbestos 19 C o r p o r a t i o n Limited. In the middle of the page, it 20 has a caution. Could you tell me whether or not you 21 ever wrote to DuPont a d v i s i n g them of this caution? t 22 A. I don't recall w h e t h e r I w r ote to DuPont. 23 But what it says here is that they are going to 24 pri n t this on every bag. And, of course, we A- 96 Wilcox & Fetzer Registered Professional Reporters Edward C . Rabn 56 1 don't -- we don't repack. We use the bags as they 2 come. So whenever they started putting this 3 cautionary label on bags, that's when DuPont would 4 have gotten it. But I don't recall whether a Ii 5 specific written notice ever went out. There was 6 really, at this particular time, no reason to advise ! 7 them at this point, to the best of my knowledge'. 8 To answer your question, I don't recall 1 | 9 what we did except that it would be on the bags iron 10 this point. The purpose of putting this letter in 11 here was to try to date the time when this legend 12 went on the bags because I was asked that question 13 sometime back, maybe in the previous deposition, as 14 to how the bags were marked. And it was very 15 difficult for me to say how they were marked at any 16 specific time. But this sort of dates it a little 17 bit. 18 Q. Do you recall ever writ i n g to DuPont 19 changing your January 31st, 1969 letter, the 20 information in there, once you received this 2 1 January 13th letter? . 22 A. 23 Q. I do not recall ever doing that,1 no. And there are no letters in your file 24 indicating that you did that? -- Wilcox & Fetter ------------- -- -------------------^ Registered Professional Reporters A -97 E d w a r d C. R a b e n 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 r e q u e s t which was directed to you to lock through 1 0 y o u r files and bring any papers you have relating to 11 C r a n e P a c k a g i n g Company. Are you familiar w it h the 12 Crane Packaging Company? 13 A- Only from the name in here seeing the 14 d o c u m e n t s . I'm not familiar with them, no. 15 Q. Are you familiar with a company by the name 16 of John Crane or John C r a n e - K o u d a i l l e ? 17 A . No. 18 Q. - To your recollection, did Wagner ever do 19 b u s i n e s s with a company by the name of John Crane or 20 John Crane-Houdai 11e ? 2 1 A. 22 Q. To the best of my k n o w l e d g e , no.. ! As I u nderstand it, you were a supplier. Is 23 t h a t correct? 24 A. We are a distributor or an agent, depending -- Wilcox & Fetzer J Registered Professional Reporters A- 98 E d w a r d C. R a b n 5 9 1 BY MS. MATUSZEWSKI: 2 Q. In regards to the January 31st letter that 3 you wro t e back to DuPont, what was the basis that 4 the sweeping compound was not toxic? : 5 MS. YOUNG: Objection. Asked and 6 answered. 7 MR. G A B A Y : Objection as to the form. 8 BY MS. MATUSZEWSKI: Q J Q. No. I did not ask that. What I'm trying to 10 get at, you told me before you didn't think your j 11 powders required anything more than a respirator and l . 12 I'm trying to find out ..hat is the basis for your j 13 k n o w l e d g e of that. j ! 14 MR. G A E A Y : My objection still stands j 15 as to the f o r m . 16 A. The basis was as I gave it to you, that all ; i 17 of our powders are in terms of, to the best of my i 18 knowledge, were -- they were potent i a l l y harmful as 19 a result of a dust hazard. And the principal 20 p r e c a u t i o n we would ask anyone to take would be to i 21 p r o t e c t themselves from dust. That was -- I assume | 22 that's what you asked me. 23 Q. That's not what I meant and I apologize if I 24 d i d n ' t make myself clear. What is the basis of your A- 9 9 Wilcox & Fetzer Registered Professional Reporters E d w a r d C. R a b n 60 \ 1 k n o w l e d g e or whe r e did you get your 1:now ledge that 2 the powders that you dealt with were not toxic? 3 A. Well, just, again, from suppliers' sources. 4 It's just something which I guess you grow up with. j 5 I don't know. I can't give you a specific answer 6 about specific products. But dust hazards you would 7 normally associate with any finely powdered ! 8 material. !i ! 9 Q. I'm sorry. I wasn't referring to 1O s p e c i f i c a l l y a dust hazard but as to t o x i c i t y . 11 A . K e l l , I can't answer the toxicity part 12 b e c a u s e to me the t o x i c i t y in this case I guess 13 w o u l d be -- I don't know. 1 don't know the 14 d e f i n i t i o n of t o x i c i t y 'without looking it up. 15 Q. Do you know the definition of toxic? 15 A. Not the definition, no, but I have an idea. 17 Q. What does it mean to you? 18 A. In this case, it means to me to protect -- 19 MR. G A B A Y : Excuse me. Are we asking 2 0 wh a t it means to him today or if he knew what it 2 1 m e a n t and what it meant to him back in 1969? ! 22 MS. MATUS ZE W S K I : That's fair. 2 3 BY MS. MATUSZEWSKI: 24 Q. What did it mean to you in 1969? A-100 Wilcox & Fet zer Registered Professional Reporters V Edward C. Rabn 1 A. I'm sorry. I don't know. I can't answer 2 that. 20 years back. I apologize but I can't. | 3 Q. What does toxic mean to you today? ; i i 4 A. Toxic could mean a number of things. It ! 5 could mea n that if you eat it, you'll die, or if you 6 brea t h e it, you might get some other problem in your 7 breathing apparatus. To me, anything that we sold j i 8 at that time, that the only possible danger it had j j 9 to m y knowledge at that time vas from dust. Eo if i 10 you protect yourself from dust, you're in the j i 11 clear. That was my interpretation. That's the ! 12 basis. You asked me, I guess, why. I answered what 13 I did, for better or for worse , why. j i ' ' ) 14 K S. KATUS CEVfSK I : I think I'll stop j 15 t h e r e . 16 BY MR. MAROh: 17 Q. Sir, my name is James Heron and I represent 18 the Asbestos Claims Facility. I'm going to show you 19 a docum e n t dated February 2nd, 1955 which came out 20 of the package which we marked as Exhibit 15 to this, 2 1 deposition, sir. Sir, first of all, do you remember 22 receiving this letter? 23 A . Mo. 24 q . What's a Group 7? What does Group .7 mean to A- 101 Wilcox & Fetzer Registered Professional Reporters I J