Document pm5GQq1Nxa9Ngdgb4D6X0ZXO7

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS BEAUMONT DIVISION CECIL SCOTT, ET AL VS. MONSANTO COMPANY * * * * CIVIL ACTION * NO. B-84-1103-CA * * ********************** August 27, 1987 Volume V ********************** BEFORE THE HONORABLE JOE J. FISHER UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE, AND A JURY Reported by: C. Frank McMillan Federal Court Reporting Co. P. 0. BOX 2664 Beaumont, Texas 77006 (409) 839-2518 HARTOLDMONO019870 1 APPEARANCES 2 3 ATTORNEYS FOR PLAINTIFFS: 4 MR. DAVID M. LACEY MR. MICHAEL A. POHL 5 MS. SUSAN BAKER Gilpin, Pohl & Bennett 6 1300 Post Oak Boulevard Houston, Texas 77056 7 MR. THOMAS HENDERSON 8 MR. ANTONIO PYLE Henderson & Goldberg 9 1030 Fifth Avenue Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15219 10 MR. BENTON MUSSLEWHITE 11 609 Fannin, Suite 517 Houston, Texas 77002 12 13 ATTORNEYS FOR DEFENDANT: 14 MR. ROBERT A. HALL MR. ROBERT A. JONES 15 MR. JONATHAN SHOEBOTHAM Woodard, Hall & Prinun 16 4700 Texas Commerce Tower Houston, Texas 77002 17 MR. TANNER T. HUNT, JR. 18 MS. CHERYL D. OLESEN MR. WALTER CRAWFORD 19 MR. MARK FREEMAN Wells, Peyton, Beard, Greenberg, 20 Hunt & Crawford P. O. Box 3708 21 Beaumont, Texas 77056 22 ALSO PRESENT: 23 Mr. William Papageorge, Corporate 24 Representative for the Monsanto Chemical Company. 25 HARTOLDMONO019871 669 1 INDEX 2 3 WITNESS: PAUL GEORGE BENIGNUS 4 PAGE 5 Continued Reading of Video Deposition 670 6 7 WITNESS: MEDUS HUTCHENS 8 PAGE 9 Direct Examination by Mr. McCrae 707 10 Reading from Video Deposition 710 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 HARTOLDMONO019872 ISTTF 1 MORNING SESSION 2 3 (9:30 a.m. Thursday, August 27, 1987) 4 5 THE COURT: Please be seated. Good 6 morning, ladies and gentlemen. 7 All right. Let's conclude this 8 deposition. 9 MR. LACEY: Thank you, Your Honor. 10 MR. HALL: Your Honor, before we get 11 started on that, yesterday when I finished 12 cross-examining Dr. Teitelbaum, I told the 13 Court I was going to offer some exhibits 14 into evidence. And just for the record, 15 that's Exhibit 3123 through 3128. I' 11 16 offer those at this time. 17 THE COURT: All right, sir. 18 MR. LACEY: Beginning at Page 50, line 19 24 . 20 21 (Reading from video deposition) 22 Q Let me show you a document, Document 32424 23 through 32464, entitled "Monsanto Chemical 24 Company Salesmen's Manual, Aroclor." Have you 25 seen that document before? HARTOLDMONO019873 671 1 (End of reading) 2 3 MR. LACEY: Your Honor, I would like to 4 provide an excerpt of that to the Court and 5 to the jury for their assistance. 6 THE COURT: Is the public address 7 system on? If you'11 speak into that, sir . 8 ` MR. LACEY: I'll do that, Your Honor. 9 Let me repeat the question so it will 10 be clear for the record. 11 12 (Reading from video deposition) 13 Q Let me show you a document, Document 32424 14 through 32464, entitled "Monsanto Chemical 15 Company Salesmen's Manual, Aroclor." Have you 16 seen that document before? 17 A Well, this gives information about what the 18 different Aroclors are. That's what this does. 19 I've certainly seen -- I may have written this. 20 Q Well, this -- did you see the date that this 21 was written? It's right there on the front? 22 A 1944. 23 Q Did you write this? 24 A In 1944? 25 (End of reading) HARTOLDMONO019874 F7T 1 2 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 55, line 15. 3 4 (Reading from video deposition) 5 Q Let me ask you to take a look, if you could, 6 at the page that is numbered down at the bottom, 7 32428. 8 (End of reading) 9 10 MR. MUSSLEWHITE: What page are you on? 11 I'm sorry. 12 MR. LACEY: Page 55, line 15. 13 14 (Reading from video deposition) 15 A 428? 16 Q Yes, 428. 17 A 428, uh-huh. Now, what do you want to know? 18 Q Now, that's where this section discussing 19 toxicity of these compounds starts, is it not? 20 A Yeah. 21 Q And it talks specifically about the toxicity 22 of Aroclors, correct? 23 A I read it. Right. 24 (End of reading) 25 HARTOLDMONO019875 673 1 MR. LACEY: Page 59, line 7. 2 3 (Reading from video deposition) 4 Q Would you look at Page 32430. 5 A 430. Okay. 6 Q See about the middle of the page where it 7 starts a section called "Recommendations for 8 Industrial Practice"? 9 A Right. 10 11 MR. LACEY % And then Monsanto's offer, 12 which I'll read. 13 14 (Reading from video deposition) 15 Q Here it lays out for the salesman in this 16 Salesmen's Manual what would be considered good 17 practice where Aroclors are being handled, 18 doesn't it? 19 A Let me read it. 20 Q Surely. 21 A Where it says, quote, "unless there is a 22 very good reason for using the hot method," end 23 quote. 24 Q Yeah. Andcontinuing right on all the way 25 over through middle of the next page. HARTOLDMONO019876 674 1 A Quote, "The cold or solvent method of 2 impregnation with chlorinated naphthalenes," end 3 quote -- well, we -- we didn't make chlorinated 4 naphthalenes. Monsanto didn't have chlorinated 5 naphthalenes. 6 Q That's not what's -- 7 A Why is it saying this? 8 Q What are these three words on top of that 9 very -- the top of the very page? 10 A Up here? 11 Q Yeah. 12 A It says, quote, Monsanto Chemical Company, 13 end quote. 14 Q That's a Monsanto document, isn't it? I 15 A Well, I'm telling you Monsanto didn't have 16 chlorinated naphthalenes. 17 Q Well, maybe they did back in 1944? 18 A No, they didn't, David. 19 Q I see. You know that. 20 A I guarantee it. 21 Q I see. Okay. 22 (End of reading) 23 24 MR. LACEY: And then beginning with the 25 plaintiffs' offer again. HARTOLDMONO019877 ST5 1 2 (Reading from video deposition) 3 Q Well, why don't you go ahead and review that 4 entire section that talks about Recommendations 5 for Industrial Practice? 6 A Who wrote this? 7 Q Well, Mr. Benignus, I'd hoped that you could 8 tell me that. Somebody at Monsanto did, didn't 9 they? 10 A I don't know. Yeah, I've read this page. 11 (End of reading) 12 13 MR. LACEY: We'll stop the offer right 14 there and go ahead and go over to Page 62, 15 line 3. 16 17 (Reading from video deposition) 18 Q Now, here in this salesmen's manual that 19 Monsanto put out in 1944, they've got a section 20 for on Recommendations for Industrial Practice, 21 correct? 22 A Yeah. I just read it. 23 Q Yeah? 24 A About in -- in -- talking about each fellow 25 should have two lockers or something like this. HARTOLDMONO019878 ------------------------------_-- ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ 571T 1 Q Yeah. And -- and let's just go over that. 2 What do they recommend? Two lockers for each 3 worker exposed to chlorinated waxes: one for 4 working and one for street clothes, correct? 5 A CJh-huh. 6 Q "All work clothes above the underwear should 7 be provided and laundered at least twice a week 8 by the management," correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q "The workers should change to clean . 11 underwear at the end of each shift before getting 12 into street clothes," correct? 13 A Yes. It's in there. 14 Q "Supervised cleaning: At noon theworkers 15 should remove outer clothing and scrub hands and 16 face under supervision. At the end of the shift, 17 they should be required to take a supervised 18 shower before entering" -- "before changing back 19 into street clothes," correct? 20 A That's what it says. You're reading it. 21 Q Next number. "Protective skin creams or 22 protective clothing should be provided by the 23 management at the discretion of the foreman, 24 nurse, medical or plant superintendent," correct? 25 A Well, I read it. I wouldn't -- I wouldn't HARTOLDMONO019879 677 1 agree with some of that. 2 Q I see. 3 A I agree that -- 4 Q You don't agree that these steps are 5 necessary as precautions? 6 A No, I'm not saying that. 7 Q I see. 8 A I -- I don't like personally -- the -- using 9 skin cream. 10 Q I see. Okay.But that's not the -- 11 A I'm not trying to beconfusing here. 12 Q Yeah. 13 A I read it with you, what it says. 14 Q "All departments handling chlorinated 15 synthetic waxes should be thoroughly cleaned 16 according to a pre-arranged schedule. This 17 should include the removal of all deposits, wax 18 and carry-off from machines, floors, and 19 surrounding objects. Workers doing the cleaning 20 should be'provided with protective clothing and 21 supplied air or organic vapor masks where exhaust 22 ventilation is inadequate or impossible," 23 correct? 24 A That's what it says . . 25 Q It goes on to say these foreman should make HARTOLDMONO019880 --------- ---------------------------------------------------------- ------ ------------------------------------------ STff 1 it their duty to check up on workers in their 2 department and instruct them in safe practice. 3 Is that what it says? 4 A That's what it says. 5 (End of reading) 6 7 MR. LACEY; Going on down to line 25. 8 9 (Reading from video deposition) 10 Q Well, the document is a Monsanto document. 11 And go back to the front of the document. What 12 does it talk about? 13 A David, I know -- 14 Q Aroclor, doesn't it? 15 A Yes. I read this. And what it does say, 16 quote, "Salesmen's Manual." But -- 17 (End of reading) 18 19 MR. LACEY: After the deposition was 20 concluded, the witness changed his answer to 21 say, "But there were no salesmen in 1944. 22 During the war years, PCBs were 100 percent 23 allocated by the government's war effort. " 24 Then going to Page 69, line 21. 25 HARTOLDMONO019881 . 5T9 1 (Reading from video deposition) 2 Q This -- this Salesmen's Manual covers just 3 about everything you can ever think of about 4 PCBs, doesn't it? 5 (End of reading) 6 7 MR. MUSSLEWHITE: I'm sorry. Which 8 line? 9 MR. LACEY: Line 21 is where the 10 question begins. 11 MR. MUSSLEWHITE: Okay. 12 13 (Reading from video deposition) 14 A I think the title of that thing is a bit out 15 of gear -16 Q I see. 17 A -- "Salesmen's Manual." 18 Q I see. Well, it's just -- 19 A This tells -- 20 Q A good reference book? 21 A It -- it is. This -- this tells me some 22 things that I can put into order here going 23 through -- I've never seen this. 24 (End of reading) 25 HARTOLDMONO019882 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------g"B7T 1. MR. LACEY: Stopping right there and 2 going to line 24. 3 4 (Reading from video deposition) 5 Q This is a very good comprehensive treatise 6 on the subject matter of PCBs, isn't it? 7 A Yes. 8 Q The treatment here is considerably more 9 thorough than the treatment you find in those 10 application bulletins like P-115, isn't it? 11 A In many respects it is, yes. 12 Q Including the respects about toxicity and 13 safe handling, isn't that true? 14 A On that, also, yes. 15 (End of reading) 16 17 MR. LACEY: And then after the 18 deposition, the witness changed his answer 19 to add, "But the safe handling directories 20 are for chlorinated naphthalenes -- 21 vapors -- Halowax -- not made by Monsanto. 22 These directives were not used for Monsanto 23 PCBs." 24 Next question. 25 HARTOLDMONO019883 ---------------- --------- --------------------- --------- ---------- ----------------- - '------------- ZWI 1 (Reading from video deposition) 2 Q And you don't ever recall from the time that 3 you were involved with sales matters on PCBs 4 seeing a document like this that Monsanto put out 5 anytime after 1944, do you? 6 A I never saw this. 7 (End of reading) 8 9 MR. LACEY: And then after the 10 deposition, the witness changed his answer 11 to add, "Not preparatory to this deposition. 12 And there was no document like this after 13 1944 . " 14 Then going to Page 75, line 14. 15 16 (Reading from video deposition) 17 Q Let me show you and exhibit, a three-page 18 exhibit that was marked as Deposition Exhibit No. 19 6 in Mr. Papageorge's deposition. I want to 20 direct your attention to the third page of that, 21 which was marked as Exhibit 6-A in his 22 deposition, which is a letter dated February 2nd, 23 1972, from a Mr. R.T. Richards. 24 A Yeah. 25 (End of reading) HARTOLDMON0019884 FETZ 1 2 MR. LACEY; Going to Page 77, line 5. 3 4 (Reading from video deposition) 5 Q He did not realize when he wrote that letter 6 in 1972 that Aroclors contained PCBs. 7 A Well -- 8 (End of reading) 9 10 MR. LACEY: Then Mr. Crawford entered 11 an objection: "Now, don't speculate about 12 something that you don't know anything 13 about." 14 The question continues; 15 16 (Reading from video deposition) 17 Q Well, it's obvious, isn't it, from the 18 letter? 19 A It's obvious. 20 Q Okay. 21 A There's no speculation. David, this -- at 22 that point in time, PCS, as you know, was a newly 23 coined word. 24 Q I see. 25 A Well -- HARTOLDMONO019885 683 1 Q He should certainly have known that Aroclors 2 contain polychlorinated biphenyl, shouldn't he? 3 That's not -- 4 A Depending on what he did. Maybe he was the 5 accountant or something. I don't know, David. 6 Q Why don't you look over -- right over there 7 it's got his title up there. What does it say? 8 A Quote, "Public Relations and Personnel, 9 Health Division." I would have to -- 10 Q Well, what's his specific title? Manager? 11 A Dr. Richard, Manager, Industrial Hygiene and 12 Toxicity. 13 (End of reading) 14 15 MR. LACEY: Mr. Crawford says , "Don't 16 speculate about something somebody else" - 17 18 (Reading from video deposition) 19 A Well, I don't think that's speculation. 20 (End of reading) 21 22 MR. LACEYi Then going to Page 90, line 23 2. 24 25 (Reading from video deposition) HARTOLDMONO019886 7T84 1 Q You were involved, were you not, in 2 Monsanto's policy to defend Aroclor? 3 A What? 4 Q You were involved, wereyou not, in 5 Monsanto's efforts and policies to defined 6 Aroclor, were you not? 7 A I don't understand. 8 Q Let me show you a document dated December 9 9th, 1968, written by Dr. Richard to Ralph Munch, 10 you and Mr. Bryant, Mr. Heber, Mr. Sullivan, Mr . 11 Thompson, Mr. Wiest -- Document 39204-205 . You 12 received that document, did you not? 13 A Yes. I was on the list here. 14 Q And that document dealt with an effort by 15 Monsanto to defend Aroclor and try to keep it in 16 use, did it not? 17 A Well, this is by Bill Richard, the Director 18 of -- of Research -- outlining a program. 19 (End of reading) 20 21 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 93, line 23. 22 23 (Reading from video deposition) 24 Q Well, let me show you here a document dated 25 September 9th, 1969, Document 30840 through 30487 HARTOLDMONO019887 graTEf 1 (sic), also written by Mr. Richard to Mr. Wheeler 2 with copies to various people and I want to 3 direct your attention in particular to the fifth 4 page of this document, 30844, and to the sixth 5 page of the document, 30845, where it lists 6 certain portions of the plan to defend Aroclor 7 and gives the name of the people responsible for 8 it out at the side. Do you see that? 9 A Yeah. 10 Q Your name showsout there - 11 A Yeah. 12 Q -- asresponsible for the actions. 13 A My name and Bryant. Bryant was in my area. 14 He was associated with me. 15 This is 1969. I may have been in Australia, 15 for all I know. But it came to Benignus/Bryant. 17 Now, what is it that -- oh, capacitor fluids. 18 (End of reading) 19 20 MR. LACEY; Now, going to Page 95, line 21 16. 22 23 (Reading from video deposition) 24 Q You all had a role to play in this program 25 to defend Aroclors, didn't you? HARTOLDMONO019888 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- g-^g. A Well, we were named here, yes, under this section. I don't know what it says we were supposed to do. (End of reading) MR. LACEYs Going to Page 96, line 7. (Reading from video deposition) Q Dr. Richard had this all laid out with who was supposed to do what, and made specific assignments of each job, didn't he? A Yes. Q And -- A That's what itis. Q And you were on the list of people who were assigned jobs to do? A Yes. (End of reading) MR. LACEY: Go to Page 112, line 18. (Reading from video deposition) Q Let me show you another document dated February 2nd, 1970, called "The Transformer Askarel Fluid Market," written by Donald R. HARTOLDMONO019889 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SF7 1 Pogue, Document 27924 through 28017 . Do you see 2 that document? 3 A I heard of this. 4 Q Who was Mr. Pogue? 5 A He was a man in -- what in the world was he? 6 What1s the date on this thing? '70. He was --7 I'm trying to do my best here. 8 I know -- I know Don Pogue. He was in a 9 group around there, and he did a survey or -- or 10 did something here, and put this together. 11 Q Mr. Pogue was a Monsanto employee? 12 A Yes, he was. 13 (End of reading) 14 15 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 115, line 21. 16 17 (Reading from video deposition) 18 Q On Page 27934, Mr. Pogue says, "Our most 19 significant problem is the utilities' reluctance 20 to expose personnel and customers to Askarel 21 fumes and irritation. This has resulted from 22 several widely publicized explosions and from 23 frequent bothersome transformer leaks." 24 And do you agree with what Mr. Pogue had to 25 say there? HARTOLDMONO019890 688 1 A There were not frequent exposures. 2 (End of reading) 3 4 MR. LACEY: That was corrected by the 5 witness to say there were not frequent 6 explosions. 7 Going to Page 116, line 24. 8 9 (Reading from video deposition) 10 Q Mr. Pogue indicates at Page 27935, "We must 11 address ourselves to frequent utility technical 12 service visits to neutralize emotions on 13 Askarel's toxicity and handling." 14 Do you agree that that was a necessary 15 program of Monsanto? 16 A 11 had not been. This is his point of view. 17 Q Do you agree with it? 18 A I would -- i -- i don't disagree with this . 19 What's the date on this thing? 20 Q February, 1970. 21 A 1970? 22 Q 1970 . 23 A Well, I don't disagree with that. I did 24 that myself, David, 25 (End of reading) HARTOLDMONO019891 Farg1 2 MR. LACEY: Going to Page 119, line 22. 3 4 (Reading from video deposition) 5 Q Mr. Pogue indicates at Page 27959 that the 6 market share -- and he's talking about 7 transformer uses for Askarel transformers -- he 8 says that "our market share of 20 percent does 9 not appear stable." 10 He goes on to say, "Contacts with utilities 11 indicate that during recent years because of 12 larger multi-story buildings, inside basement 13 network vaults and upper floor networks are 14 becoming increasingly popular. Unfortunately, 15 dry types or upper floor service are preferred 16 (weight and Askarel1s installation cost), and 17 often oil is used inside because utilities feel 18 Askarel must be vaulted anyway (fear of explosion 19 and fumes.)" 20 Do you agree with those concerns he had 21 about Monsanto's market for PCB transformers? 22 A In a way/ I agree. But there's more to it, 23 this story, than that. 24 If one wishes to handle this subject/ you 25 must also concede that a dry-type transformer HARTOLDMONO019892 1 will blow and create a lot of fumes and problems. 2 I don't disagree with what he says. What he 3 says is not a complete assessment -4 Q I see. 5 A -- is what I'm saying, David. 6 (End of reading) 7 8 MR. LACEY j Going to Page 121, line 24. 9 10 (Reading from video deposition) 11 Q Some utilities did everything in their power 12 to avoid using PCBs transformers -- 13 (End of reading) 14 15 MR. LACEY: I'm sorry. I should delete 16 that. I'll delete that whole sect ion. 17 Come to Monsanto's offer on Page 126. 18 19 20 (Reading from video deposition) 21 Q Did you learn about the Japanese problems 22 with PCBs -- and I'm talking particularly now 23 about the Yusho incident -- when you went to 24 Japan? 25 (End of reading) HARTOLDMONO019893 EVT 1 2 MR. MUSSLEWHITE: What line did you 3 say? 4 MR. LACEY: 16. 5 6 (Reading from video deposition) 7 Q Did you learn about the Japanese problems 8 with PCBs -- and I'm talking particularly now 9 about the Usho incident -- when you went to 10 Japan? 11 A No. I was before that. 12 Q I see. Did you keep up with the situation 13 in Japan after that occurred as part of your 14 world interest? 15 A Nof I did not. 16 Q I see. You don't know anything about when 17 Japan decided to ban the use of PCBs? 18 A Yes, I do. 19 Q Okay. Well, I'm sorry. That's what I was 20 leading to. Well, when -- when did the Japanese 21 decide to ban the use of PCBs? 22 A Let me think a bit. 23 I think -- and this is by memory -- I think 24 it would probably have been sometime in 1968 . 25 It's in that period, as best I can remember. HARTOLDMON0019894 TTTZ 1 Q Okay. And they stopped at that point using 2 PCBs for any application -- 3 A Yes. 4 Q -- did they not? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Did they have any substantial problems with 7 their electric system that you recall? 8 A None that I know of. 9 Q Okay. 10 A No. 11 May I make a comment on the last thing, 12 David? 13 Q Well, what would you like to comment on? 14 A I would like to tell you something you 15 probably don't know. 16 Their electric system was much different 17 , than ours. At this point of time, David, the 18 Japanese were just coming around to sort of 19 adopting our way of using capacitors is what I'm 20 driving at. They had an altogether different 21 arrangment. The systems weren't similar in terms 22 of what we're talking about. . 23 (End of reading) 24 25 MR. LACEY: That concludes the offers HARTOLDMONO019895 -------------------------------------------- ' ET5 1 from the deposition of Mr. Benignus, Your 2 Honor. 3 THE COURT: All right. Who do you have 4 next? 5 MS. OLESON: Your Honor, just for a 6 minute, when Volume I of Benignus' 7 deposition was read, only the defendants 8 designated excerpts, I believe, were read 9 into the record. 10 Beginning with Volumes II and III, both 11 plaintiffs and defendants excerpts were 12 read. We do have about a 15 to 20 minute 13 offer from Volume I of Paul Benignus' 14 deposition which has not been read in yet. 15 THE COURT: That hasn't been offered? 16 MS. OLESENs No, it has not. 17 THE COURT: All right. You may make 18 the offer. Will you supply the answers, Mr. 19 Hunt? 20 MR. HUNT: I will do my best, Your 21 Honor. 22 THE COURT: All right. You made 23 proceed. 24 MS. OLESENs Beginning at Page 45, line 25 19. HARTOLDMONO019896 F5T 1 2 (WHEREUPON THE FOLLOWING PORTIONS OF THE 3 VIDEO DEPOSITION WERE READ TO THE JURY.) 4 5 (Reading from video deposition) 6 Q Well, what do you use one of these 7 capacitors for -- 8 A All right. ' 9 Q -- that you've just shown us? 10 A Now, the uses for the capacitors -- and this 11 is an important aspect of PCS use. PCS 12 dielectric replaced mineral oil because, as we 13 discussed, the dielectric constant. Before the 14 advent of PCBs, G.E., who were -- it was 15 Steinmetz that introduced capacitors to General 16 Electric. The great Steinmetz predicted a great 17 future for this. 18 They had in those days mineral oil. Mineral 19 oil will oxidize. When mineral oil oxidizes, it 20 sludges, forms acidic materials that get to be 21 relatively conducting. 22 And when we say "develop a high power 23 factor," this means a high loss tangent or 24 dissipation factor. The means heat generation. 25 We already discussed what a capacitor is and, I HARTOLDMONO019897 --` 69"5 1 believe, to release -- 2 I'll sit -- 3 Q That's okay. Point out what you're going to 4 show us. 5 A -- release heat through the wall of this 6 can. Now, if we generate heat in this thing 7 beyond its ability to transfer that out, we've 8 got a bomb. That thing is going to overheat. 9 It's going to consume itself. Things are going 10 to decompose, generate gases. And, indeed, the 11 early capacitors with mineral oil were almost as 12 much bombs as anything else. Plus, mineral oil 13 burns. 14 And at the high temperature where these 15 things would generate enough to consume 16 themselves, those things are hot. And that 17 mineral oil, when that let's go, you've got quite 18 a fire on your hand. 19 Now, this leads us to two things. We talked 20 about economics, small size. We will now, with 21 G.E. -- I'm saying what G.E. found. We're going 22 into what belongs to G.E. This is their 23 material. We merely make it. 24 Q Okay. Let me stop you there for a second. 25 One thing I want to find out before we get into HARTOLDMONO019898 696 1 that is: What do capacitors do? How do you use 2 them? 3 A Well, excuse me. Let me finish. It's very 4 short. 5 Q Why was PCB of interest? 6 (End of reading) 7 8 THE COURT: Mr. Hunt. 9 MR. HUNT: Sir. 10 THE COURT: Let's void the effort of 11 selling it, the testimony. Just read it. 12 Let's move along 9 13 MR. HUNT: I beg pardo n, Your Honor. 14 THE COURT: All right. You're using 15 hand movements and things like that. 16 MR. HUNT: Thank you, Your Honor. 17 18 (Reading from video deposition) 19 A Why was PCB of interest? Frank Clark, who 20 discovered this at G.E., he found, number one, 21 "Look, mister, it doesn't burn." 22 And the only ad I've ever seen on PCB 23 dielectric is a blowtorch into a pan. It doesn't 24 bur n. 25 The other thing is it doesn't oxidize. It's HARTOLDMONO019899 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- ----------------------- 6TT7 1 a stronger dielectric than mineral oil. And 2 that's the story. 3 Now, to answer your question, "What are they 4 used for," fluorescent lights, you have. All 5 fluorescent lights, indoor and outdoor, the 6 ballast operates with, till it's demise, PCB 7 capacitors. They're about this high, about so 8 thick, and about maybe so wide. They're small. 9 They are encased in a ballast -- called 10 "ballast" -- with a transformer. The capacitor 11 is encased in a sealing material in there, 12 plastic tar. 13 Now, you ask, "What does it do?" 14 Q Right. 15 A We already said this is an electric sponge. 16 When you start, push that button there to start 17 these lights, unless you have the benefit of this 18 sponge to release momentarily additional power 19 needed to energize this thing, these tubes, they 20 don't do it. 21 (End of reading) 22 23 MS. OLESEN: Okay. And stopping there 24 and continuing on at Page 49, line 17. 25 HARTOLDMONO019900 1 (Reading from video deposition) 2 Q Now, one use is -- a major use, you see, one 3 is this ballast, lighting ballast. The other -- 4 another major use is motor operation, like air 5 conditioners. Now, air conditioning got to be 6 very prevalent. And if everybody -- if many 7 people turned on air conditioning and you didn't 8 have a capacitor, you'd blow up the power company 9 and everything would go down. 10 By law, these things need to have a 11 capacitor; and the Aroclor, PCB, was the most 12 efficient. It replaced mineral oil long ago, and 13 there was nothing that competed with it. 14 The other prime use, number three, is that 15 you had said about the power lines --- if you look 16 up on power poles, you will see banks of power 17 line capacitors. These are doing the same thing 18 we already talked about. They are making what 19 the utility can produce more effective for the 20 operation of motors, lights, and -- and this 21 is -- they increase, enhance the utilization; and 22 therefore it's an economic measure. The utility 23 doesn't have to build as much generation. 24 You know, it sounds sort of nebulous when 25 we' re talking here; but you spread this across HARTOLDMONO019901 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SM 1 the whole country, it's a whopping big thing. 2 This is why the use of PCB, for which there are 3 no replacement or substitute, was quite a 4 critical thing. 5 (End of reading) 6 7 . MR. OLESEN: Stopping there. 8 MR. LACEY: Your Honor, the answer was 9 misread. It was for which there was no 10 substitute, not for which there are no 11 substitutes. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 MS. OLESEN: Continuing at Page 53, 14 line 12. 15 16 17 (Reading from video deposition) 18 Q Can you explain for us, generally, what a 19 "transformer" is? 20 A Well, in the area of PCB transformers, I 21 will call those "distribution-type transformers, " 22 rather than "power transformers." 23 Q What's the difference between a power - 24 A A power transformer -- when the utility 25 generates electricity, it has to pump this HARTOLDMONO019902 700 1 through the utility lines. And that is the 2 purpose of the transformer, to build up this 3 voltage so there are lower line losses. 4 Now, I'm not talking about those kind of 5 transformers when we talk about PCS transformers. 6 Those kind of transformers will be invariably 7 insulated with mineral oil, not PCS. 8 Q Is there any particular reason for that? 9 A Yes. The reason is cost. That's one of the 10 reasons. And the other reason is -- is that a 11 utility power transformer isn't located in a 12 confined building. It's outdoors. And if there 13 is a f ire, it's not -- well, it's unfortunate. 14 It's not a great risk. They're not in the middle 15 of a building in a populated area. So, that is 16 the reason mineral oil is used. 17 Q Is it a lower cost? When you said "cost," 18 is mineral oil a lower cost? 19 A Oh, yes, considerably lower cost than - 20 than PCS. Maybe PCBs cost eight times as much as 21 mineral oil, just to give you a ballpark figure. 22 Q What about these -- what you call 23 "distribution transformers"? 24 A Yes. Now, in distribution transformers the 25 application for which this would be in factories. HARTOLDMONO019903 701 1 steel mills, flour mills, automotive 2 manufacturing places, mining operations, things 3 like that. Another use we already touched on was 4 in these military installations where resistance 5 from fire and approximation to water was a 6 factor. Now, another application for PCS 7 transformers was in commercial buildings, office 8 buildings, schools, hospitals, that sort of 9 thing. And another area of application was in 10 utility underground networks. 11 So, those are the major applications 12 for Askarel transformers. In other words, this 13 is relatively small transformer. I say 14 "relative," close quote, to these very large 15 power where they generate electric power. Those 16 are very big transformers. 17 Were all relatively small transformers made 18 with PCBs? 19 All right,, I'll explain it this way: To be 20 begin with, the competition of Askarel 21 transformer was not mineral oil. We already 22 covered that. What is the competition? The 23 competition is open, dry type transformer. Now, 24 the open dry type transformer, being open, it's 25 not very applicable and sensible to put this in a HARTOLDMONO019904 TOT 1 flour mill or a cement mill where there is dust 2 and generation of dirt because this interferes 3 with the insulation and can get into an open, dry 4 type transformer. Neither is it very sensible to 5 put an open dry type transformer in an area where 6 you would expect water flooding or, say, around 7 the coastal areas and so forth, where any 8 moisture, any water getting into an open, dry 9 type transformer can cause this thing to go. 10 So; that is really the competition; and this 11 is what we are looking at in the application of 12 these transformers. 13 Q I guess my question was whether, for 14 example, every transformer -- and I take it from 15 what you're saying, it's not true -- but every 16 transformer built from 1930 until 1974 had 17 Askarel in it. 18 A No, no. 19 Q What other - 20 A Only the ones were the judgment was made 21 that Askarel should be used for the purpose that 22 I told you: avoiding water and for the purpose 23 of avoiding fire hazard. The insurance people 24 dictated much of this. 25 Q What percentage of ail the distribution HARTOLDMONO019905 7TTJ 1 transformers that were made in 30 ' s, 40 ' s, 2 50 ' s,60's, that period of time, would have been 3 Askarel transformers versus some other type, 4 approximately? 5 (End of reading) 6 7 MS. OLESENs And the answer is at line 8 9 10 (Reading from video deposition) 11 A This is a difficult thing to answer, because 12 now you said, quote, "distribution transformers. " 13 14 Q That was -- I'm trying to use the term you 15 used to explain it. 16 A Yeah. Well, we're running into trouble 17 because a distribution type transformer is also 18 these transformers that, indeed, have mineral oil 19 in them. And there are many, many, many of those 20 that you see on utility poles to assist with the 21 distribution of power. Now, those are mineral 22 oil. So, if they catch on fire, you saw the top 23 of the pole off. It's not a fire hazard. 24 So, let's answer your question. 25 Askarel went into a specifically selected place, HARTOLDMONO019906 ------------------- - TOT 1 see? Rather than the -- it's a specialty, is the 2 answer. 3 Q Okay. 4 A It is very much a minority. That is the 5 answer. And to quantify this is numbers, I don't 6 know. 7 Q Okay. Well, that's answering my question. 8 A Okay. 9 Q They'rebasically aspecialty product? 10 A Specialty, yes,based on fire -- lack of 11 fire hazard. That is the answer to the question. 12 (End of reading) 13 14 MS. OLESEN; Then at Page 71, beginning 15 at line 21. 16 i i 17 (Reading from video deposition) 18 Q In connection with your role as marketing 19 manager from the mid-60's or so on through 1974, 20 were you responsible for trying to encourage as 21 many people as possible to use the PCBs in their 22 transformers and their capacitors? 23 (End of reading) 24 25 MR. HUNTs Counsel, the answer at the HARTOLDMONO019907 705 1 top of Page 72 is not underlined. Should it 2 be? 3 MS. OLESEN: Yes. This offer will 4 conclude at line 22 of Page 72. 5 6 {Reading from video deposition) 7 A Really, to -- to no significant extent. We 8 couldn't get people to use one more drop of PCB 9 dielectric than they themselves decided to use. 10 We weren't out selling them the standpoint that 11 you normally think of selling and so forth. 12 Q Well, I guess what I'm getting at is whether 13 from a technical standpoint you might attempt to 14 convince technical people, who would be in a 15 position to specify a particular type of 16 transformer, the benefits - 17 A No. 18 Q -- of specifying PCB transformers versus 19 mineral oil transformers or dry transformers or 20 anything like that? 21 A Well, as we already discussed, we weren't in 22 competition, with mineral oil. 23 (End of reading) 24 25 MS. OLESEN: That concludes our offer . HARTOLDMONO019908 7TFF 1 That ends at line 16. And that's all we 2 have, Your Honor. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 THE COURT: Who do you have next. 5 MR. MUSSLEWHITE: Your Honor, may I 6 introduce Mr. David McCrae, attorney from 7 Bloomington, Indiana. He would like to 8 introduce Medus Hutchens. I don 11 think Mr 9 Hutchens can get in the chair. We would 10 just like to introduce him shortly and then 11 go to the video so everybody could better 12 understand it. 13 THE COURT: You may. 14 MR. MUSSLEWHITE: Could you come 15 forward, please? 16 (Witness approaches bench) 17 This going to be very short, Your 18 Honor . 19 THE COURT: You may proceed. 20 MR. HUNT: Your Honor, will we have an 21 opportunity to cross examine Mr. Hutchens 22 this morning, Your Honor? 23 MR. McCRAE: Your Honor, I just intend 24 to ask him a few questions that were not 25 covered in the deposition. And then for the HARTOLDMONO019909