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FILE NAME: Caterpillar (CAT) DATE: 1940 DOC#: CAT004 DOCUMENT DESCRIPTION: Article from Published Transactions of 29th National Safety Congress - Mention's Caterpillar as Panel Member on Page 68 \ 62 29th National S a fety Congress M R H IE R O K Y U O V S : 1 don't think Mr. Cooper's remarks are all Incompatible with what you had in mind, Mr. Cha irman. 1 therefor* would like to make a motion that this group assembled here this morning adopt the suggestion you made, and that you, as Chairman o f this meeting, com municate our action to these various groups you mention, tn other words, the tnotirm would be that the associations and various groups that operate public building; cooperate with the National Safety Council and take some actual steps to further safety Work in the buildings they represent, f make that a motion. C H AIRM AN W H IS T O N : 1* then: a Mcond? (Tlte modem was regularly Seconded, put to a vole, and carried.) .4DJOUKXX1E X T Eye Protection FRIDAY MORNING SESSION October 11, ISUO The meeting for the discussion of prob lems o f eye protection, which was sponsored by the National Society for the Prevention of Blindness in cooperation with the N a tional Safety Council. w as called to order by the Chairman, D r. Leonard Grcmborg, Executive Director, Division o f Industrial Hygiene, N ew Y ork State Department of Labor, New York G ty, who presided CH A IRM A N G R EEX B U R G : T he meet ing this morning is intended to be a very informal one. W e have a chief speaker, best in addition we have a panel discussion which it completely and totally unpre pared, the idea being that many o f you gentlemen in the audience have had a great deal of experience w ith eye protection in industry. Some o f oar experts who have been invited here will d is c u s various aspects and phases o f th is problon, based chiefly o s QoestidGS which la v e come in to ns from time to time, but it must be d u r iy under stood th at anybody in the audience can par ticipate in the discussions as he may wish. Finally, 1 w ant to say th a t the problem of eye protection in industry does not con sist o t the gathering o f data and doing nothing about f t I am very sm eh reminded o f the rem ark o f our dear departed friend. Wilt Rogers, when he said that data are like garbage: a fte r you collect them you have to rind something to do with them, and chat is our problem this morning, to find just what we are going to do with these interesting figures. The first speaker of the morning is Dr, M. Davidson, who happens to be a confrere of mine in New Y ork State and who tor many years has been in charge of the eye work for the State o f New York Depart ment o f Labor. Industry's Obligation to More Adequately Protect the Worker's Eyesight By M. D A V ID SO N . M .D. O phthalm ologist, N ew York State Departm ent of Labor, New Y ork C ity There are tw o aspects to this obligation of industry to safeguard Its workers* eyes. One is to maleC'the environment safe fo r the worker by liminating hazards causing acci dents, and the dusts, fusses, intoxications and poor illumination, responsible for occu pational diseases. Safety* measures hare accomplished much since the turn o f the cemory*. The other aspect, that o f making the worker safe for himself, his co-worker and industry, has as yet not r eceived the recogni tion it deserve*. I t involves proper voca tional guidance aad advice fo r th e applicant for enptoymeoi w ith irremediable defective eyesight and for the worker who has ac- qtnred it in the course o f his employment T o reject him as an applicant wfatai found with such a defect o r to discharge him after onploymoit, is obviously an inade quate soda! solution o f the problem. It should be emphasised that errors of refraction are not considered here as consti tuting true detective eyesight, as long as normal visual acuity* can be secured by cor recting the errors with glasses. Such errors prevail in more than one-half o f the popu lation. W hen tmcorrected, they are o f course a handicap and a source o f eye strain, par ticularly under poor illumination. The true defectives are those with ir remediable defective eyesight, either in vis- 64 29th ScUouat Safety Congress ual acuity o r oiherwiie. who constitute the "human" a f distinguished from the "environ* menta/" factor in accident prevention and In* detstrial eftdeno* and who need appropriate attaition. Their handicap may he merely a low vis* ual acuity* incompatible with their tasks. It may be. however, a lack o f depth percep tion; defective color vision, congenital or acquired: defective light scan, o r defective indirect vision, and accompanied perhaps by a normal visual acuity. They are unable to perform certain tasks effectively and be* come unsafe in those operations particularly which require speed. Thus, lade o f depth perception makes dying and driving any motor vehicle extremely hazardous, and the finer mechanical work and artistic and draft* mg work difficult Defective color vision 1 also a hazard in dyers and drivers and a handicap for signalmen, embroiderers, and m the chemical industry. Flyers, drivers of motor vehicles, sailors, tubers and night watchmen need especially good light sense and indirect virion, and photographers and x-ray technicians find their absence crippling. mologists to screen out the defectives and classify (hen a s to eu*s& Merely determining the visual acuity and the mechanical application of eyesight `testing methods by non-ophthalmologists are not adequate for the purpose. A survey o f the examinations o f eyes for compensation in New York G ty in 1939, from the vantage point o f a rather large material and a uniform method o f examina tion, is presented here. As an introduction to it, let us examine the available data as to the eye capital w*hieh the worker bring. into industry and the inroads which industry makes on it. Both differ widely between countries and regions, a s to whether they are industrial o r agricultural, from the pres ence o f endemic diseases such as trachoma. The data also vary with age, due to progress in the a rt o f refraction and correction of it errors, in diagnostic methods, and to betto* nutrition, all unequal in different localities. It is to be noted that the dam are m terms of visual acmty only. Eye Capita] of the W orker This group also offers a problem in W ork men's Compensation administration. When they meet with an accident damaging their eyes, they are, in the absence o f knowledge of their antedating condition, perforce given the benefit o f doubt. W e must not, how* ever, exaggerate the extent o f their over- compensation. It is balanced moreover by the undercompensation o f a considerable element endowed originally with a visual acuity of 20/15 o r even of 20/10 fo r whose loss, when they meet with an accident redne- ing their vision to 20/20, there is rarely pro vision under the law*. This is obviously not the best land o f jucoce. It is dearly the duty of Labor, Industry, State Departments o f Labor and other State Agencies to take cognizance o f this group o f defectives and, fo r medicolegal justice, of the supernormals, and to come to their re lief. Our latowledge of the real size* of the two groups, and of the frequency distribu tion of the earner o{ detective eyesight in the industrial population, is incomplete. The National Safety Council is at present "an* triJlrng to estimate c jr injuries is occupa tional accidents without further study." Such knowledge, necessary for proper vocational guidance and advice, can be scarred, w ith' out great expense, to* the routine examina tion of the industrial population by ophthal la 1923 Collins' figures for New York, Delaware, N orth Carolina and Maryland, when analyzed, show* among male school children o f 16 (less defective than younger boys and girls), w ith only 10 per cent fully corrected for errors, as follows: 20/20 m either eye, 70.8 per e m t Less than 20/20 in one eye, 10J per cent Less than 20/20 in either eye, 18o per cent. Serious defects in the tasi two group* combined, 6 per c a t . In 1939 an analysis by B hokstdo of 920 visual acuity determinations of school children ta Chicago, 7*19, to screen out de fectives, shews the following: 20/20 in either eye, 68 per cent Less than 20/20 in one eye, 22 per cent. Less than 20/20 in o th e r eve, 10 per cent. Allowing tor a large proportion of defec tive eyesight correctable to normal by glasses; o f other defectives not entering in dustry o i their own choice; and of still others rejected by industry, the eye capital which the worker brings into industry mast be considerably better than 70 per cent good eyesight Avtait* For 1925-30................. 19*0-44................. 19*4-49................. In ................. Bye Protection ITew Toile Stole FIgure* Blind Permanent Cartai* 766 574 520 467 Temporary Disability 2189 19*0 1265 1190 65 Permanent Eye Dabilities % o f Ail Permanent Disability 3% ,, 2.S6% l.?4 g 2.24C The Present Situation Blind fa s t A nnual..................................... 240 P resen t................................................ 80 Annual or on Basis of '(>.000.000 worker*..................... 4 Per Million `liwludc- qnilairrat indottiUl UindM. C enunciit Partial* 15,600 5.200 260 Per Million T em porary D isab ility 37.950 12.650 632 Per Million T o tal ir. Round Figures 54,000 18.000 900 Per Million In 1923 McAulifle reports defects, Konc Correctable, among 5000. 203 per cent. In 1929 a K w York Central Lines survey finds detective. 20 per cen t In 1933 M urray among miners finds de fect. <omc correctable. 2&3 per cent In 1937 Rainey among 15.000, in Chicago found defects 14 per cent Illiteracy among the miners Is stated to account for the higher figure, and a rigorous selection by industry since the depression probably accourus for the lower figure. Rainey moreover succeeded correcting to normal more than half of the defectives and in improving some of the others. True de fective eyesight for Chicago today among workers shortId h accordingly not over 6 per cent. With doe allowance for both the depres sion and increase o f population, the eye toll has been reduced to f t in l i years. Available fragmoitaxy figures for the reft of the country indicate a redaction to about one-third fo r the past three decades. Multi plying the Keur York State Figures by IG, one can visualize the past and present situa tion. Sec table, "The Present Situation.** The following summary o f Kcw York City Eye Examinations for 1939 includes examinations for a e d d u tu occurring in 1938 as well as in earlier part o f 1939, hence does s o t cover the same material necessarily shown in the Mew Y ork State table. Xwnbcr of eacanunafions ( l and 14 per person)................... ............................3414 Xamber of persons (7% females; 495 old cases reexamined).......... ..2663 Persons examined fo r first time {509 subject to r e e x a m in a ti o n ) ............2168 A. Perseus w ith norm al visual acuity in either eye........ ............................. 1340 B. Persons with subnormal visual acuity* in one or e ith e r.. ......................... 62? C. Persons with permanent partial or total compensable defects..........................440 (Xon-compensahle defectives among uninjured eyes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 7 per cent D. Persons with non-compeasabte pre existing defects .................... 388 (Constitutes in relation to group "A.'* defective group o f .....................2 2 ft per cent The distribution io Ramey's study is upon analysis somewhat as follows: Develop ment, 49% ; Injuries $ % ; and Systemic, 43%. From the data available for the country as a whole it appears that the potential in- 66 29th X ationai S a fe ly Congress Analysis ol New York State Closed Cases lor 1939 fOn bas of unpublished in 'c j1by D r, Patron, Director o/ Ne' York State Dept, of Labor Division of Statistics.) Number Total Cost Average Per Case Total C ases...................................... Temporary Disability.................. .. All Permanent %e Disabilitv........ Permanent Total' Blind................... AllOthcr Permanent Disability Cases for Comparison................ . $ 1,074,705 6 644 (One death included > 49.287 41 43? 851,615 1,824 (Head injuries Included > 164,660 14.971 14.280,252 686 Summary of Distribution of D efects of Group **C" ( Less chan 20/40 In one o r either eye 4 1 .6 5 ( 20/40 to 20/100 in one or either eye 23.55 20^100 and less n one eye 3 3 .5 5 Blind 1.45 dustrial worker may bring with him into in dustry an eye capital about 30 per cent de fective. A large proportion o f these defec tives are remediable by glasses. A m o n g the industrial population the incidence o f true defectives is somewhere between 14 per cent and 225 per cent, o r aproxlmatcly IS per cent- About 1/12 of this group is de fective because of industrial injuries in the past On the basis o f a vision o f 20/100 or less, and of tack o f binocular depth perception as constituting the group o f serious defec tives. there are 6 per cent of serious defec tives in the industrial population requiring special attention in view o f the National Industrial Defense Program, for the sake o f efficiency and o f accident prevention. O ver one-third o f this serious defective group is a hazard because of lack o f binocular depth perception, and possibly a hazard out of proportion to the numerical strength o f the group, In any survey o f the industrial popu lation it is therefore extremely desirable to make a complete eye examination, to In* dude the other dements o f normal eyesight and not merely to measure visual acuity, as is commonly done. Eye Examination Program A survey a t the incidence o f true defec tive eyesight among the industrial popula tion in terms o f Its most important element, visual acuity, indicates about 14 per cent to 16 per cent, with most probably leas than one half serious, defectives. The problem appears therefore smaller than ft is usually envisaged, but it nevertheless calls for better knowledge t i t and, above all. for atten tion. As part of the Defense Program, now acute, and for the sake of a more just ad ministration of W orkmans Compensation, a complete study of the problem with a view to meeting it is in order, Neither industry nor labor can be expected to carry it out with satisfaction to all concerned. Considering that some 10 per cent of workers os New York, and presumably else where, are annually examined o r hare a hearing at a Department of Labor for com pensation for all lands o f accidents, entail ing loss of time by the worker and expenses by the State, utilization of the occasion and the facilities of the Department for the ex amination of the eyes of these 10 per cent, already there fo r other purposes, suggests itself as practicable and economical. These eye examinations, not fo r glasses, but to screen out the defectives for voca tional guidance and advice, would entail for the country fi0 more than adding o r attach ing to State Departments o f Labor some 130 ophthalmologists to perform the service, and a certain number of medical soda! workers B ye Protection Summary of Censes so d Distribution of Defects of Group " D** (An A ttem pt a t a D u n fia tto n o( a Sample o( 5S%) Pelopm enul-47^ Eitors of Refractton........... Strabilim i*.. . . . . . . . . . . . Miscellaneous............ ... Inmrie--21% Old Industrial........................ N on-Industrial.-.................. Svstemicand Unknown--32* (include* senHity, infections, leucoma and simulation) *. ________Total IQOSi................ (letter than S te re o pris 20/100 20/ 100-20/200 ! Loss 2. 27c 2% 1% 4% S'", M r, 66.25 . j ir, 1 i . 1% 0.5% 2.src i% i.y ~ c , 2% 4* IS .5% 1 % 1 12.8% 67 Blind 0.5% 0.5% 1.5% ......... 2.s '; to be iurrsisited by coopera ting State agen cies, such as the State DepartmoiU of Health, of Social W elfare, and of Education. T he execution o f the program could be lodged cither with a W orkmen's Compen sation Division o r with an Industrial Hyciene Division. T he program could be expanded, should the need arise, to examine a larger sector r.f the population by increasing the stall, ft can al*o be adapted to r the genera) physical examination of workers. It should be borne in mind that the m ere determination o f r it ual acuity* forming p art o f physical a a n * inations in general, U o f no use, since low acuity may be due to errors o f refraction only, and normal acuity accompanied by de fects or disease. T h e cost involved m ight be nne-tenth ox v. hat it w ould otherw ise be. The Panel Discussion CHAIRMAN GREENBURG: li It iatcre-ning that in a state inch as the State of New York--and 1 use that lust by way of example--we have a total of approxi mately 3,000 eye a c rid a ts a year, that at least one or two of these each year result in death, that about ten o r fifteen result in permanent total blindness, permanent total industrial blindness, that about 500 result in jwrmanent partial disability, and that there are a Urge number o f temporary disability* eases. T his must be characteristic o f prac tically all manufacturing states in the union, and a very recent, most Interesting and vainable report which has come to frqtn the state of Wi*contn, proves this to be essentially ihe larL These cases in K cv York cost about $1.200,000 a year in round cumbers, a fairly sizeable sum, and the a v o ag e per case is ap proximately $650. Who we looked into the cost of some o f these accidents w e found that in general handtools were associated with higher costs than some o f the flying objects. In other words, in many cases of small flying objects the disability1 is not great and not serious, but as soon as a tool begins to come into the picture, usually the firing object presents a more serious haz ard. The average cost per case is just about as Dr. Davidson presented to you. about $650 for an eye accident and about $550 for other type* of accidents. The Problem The problem then boils itself down to a real economic and social problem because of the economic factors involved--to indus try and the workman in the ease of the in jury, and to society in general in the case of those persons who are permanently and totally disabled o r who are partially dis abled on a total basis. 6S M it .Vutknutt S o fet y Cuttyress Tliat mean* that a broad-^kge plan must ho et up. Loth with reference to protection ot worker* and compensation /o r eye in* juries and more particularly for standards o f employment rejection. N ow some com panies la v e a very broad-gage policy along the** lines and they do not refuse employ ment to a man because he has no vision in i*tn- eye. but un-'orttmatriy some companies do refuse employment to such a man and rf bring* about therefore a nwM ***ri.u* pmhUin. The; and other problem* which you may la v e in ramd, and which some o f o ur friends liavc had in mind, can be discussed very freely and frankly before this panel. I will now present to you M r. W . T. Cameron, Chief Safety Advisor, Division o f Labor Standards, V . S. Department o f Labor, Washington, D. CL, who will be the leader in our panel discussion o f eye protection problems. (Mr. \V. T. Cameron assumed the chair.) T he Panel Members Chairman Cameron infremerri fhc members of the panel as follow : and color blindness and so on. Wc la c e the job o f keeping the eyes for our great de fense program, and so on. T he second prob lem is: Him* are we going to make tin* 1st uc of these workers who now have some tincorrectible defect? W here can they be placed? W here can they be used? How shall we provide them with opportunities to cam a livelihood? I think Mr. Knudscn said the other day that o ur first bottleneck in national defense is going to be the lade o f skilled and trained workers, so we are going to have fewer of the labor supply waiting outside the gates, clamoring to get in. and we arc going to have to use some of these people who have previously been screened out o f industry or neglected because o f some defect, m many caws a visual defect. ( W c are going to follow the questions* as listed tn the program, although wc probably will do some skipping around. First, in what operation and occupations do eye rnjuries occur most frequently? I shall call first on Mr. Keown to give us some information on that subject. W here Eye Injuries Occur Mr?. Eleanor Brown Merrill. Executive Director. National Society for the Preven tion o f Blindness New York City. Harry Guilbert, Director. Bureau of Safety and Compensation. The Pullman t/ompam. 1Tiicago. Dr. T. Lyle H azletu Medical Director, W`e*tmchouse Electric and Manufacturing Cnmfiany. East Pittsburgh Pa. U. McA. Keown. Engineer, Industrial o f Wisconsin, Madison. \\*is, M. A. Kroger. Director o f Safety. Chcvrolct-Gear. Axle and Forge Division. General Motors Corporation. Detroit. * H . S. Simpson, Safety Director. Cater pillar Tractor Company. Peoria, lit C H AIRM AN C AM ERON: As I see it, we have before us two problems. One is protecting the good eyes o f industry, and there are a lo t o f them still left despite some o f the figures that do ram up on lack' o f depth perception and lack o f visual acuity K. McA. K E O W N : M r. Chairman, I have a few* figures. I am not going to give very* many o f them because they have beat covered pretty well already, but some ot the most important.' In our Wisconsin eye injury cases we fim! that the Industrie* that eauc the greatest number of injuries are the clay, glass and stone industries, and another important gnmp is the metal and metal prodact< The paper and paper products contribute only about 2.4 per cent o f all the eye injuries. Another group, a rather serious one, is the commercial and mechanical services like garage work, which account for 4 per cent o f all o f the eye injuries. As to mechanics, carpenters suffer more eye injuries perhaps than any other group, and hammers con tribute the greatest number o f injuries as a tool. Dr. Grccnburg mentioned the fact that in Wisconsin 23 per cent o f all of the eye injuries are causal by handtools; yet only about 4 per cent o f the benefits arc paid on account o f handfool injuries. Eighty per cent o f all o f our mjtaries arc of a temporary nature, and manufacturing contributes only about SO to 55 per cent o f Bye Protection 69 the eye injuries. Eighty-three out o i every 400 compensable eye tsjories are temporary. A s stated by the New Y ork figures our number of eye injuries as compared with all injuries nm s from 2.9 per eeat to nearly 4 per cent. T h at figure has varied between those two limits for quite a number o f years, and the amount o f benefits paid, howev er, runs from 8 to 10 per cent and th at checks very closely. The cost of eye injuries in total benefits is aboet tw o and ooe-half times as serious as fo r all injury cases. CH AIRM A N C A M E R O N ; 1 think wc might have an actual example o r two. ! know that the usual procedure hi industry is to go through the shop and make a list of all the jobs where eye protection o f one kind o r another should be* furnished. 1 should like to o i l on M r. Simpson, o f the Caterpillar Tractor Company, to give us some examples o f where eye cases turn up in heavy manufacturing. H- S. S IM P S O X : It is our experience; and thaf o f sU industry, that accidents happen where you do not expect them. If you do uot expect to have an eye injury, you do not wear goggles, and yon end up m the hospital with an injury ami then the com pensation. W e have considered adopting the compulsory goggles rule but we get op there and then we back away. W e hare tried to evaluate hazards. W c say that the operator on this machine must w a r goggles, but what are t going to do about the time keeper who stops by for an instant to get the man*!, tim e and also one o t his chips? O ur tcrioui ye a c r id a ts h a re hem eases, for instance, where a lock-washer exploded when the nut was being backed off w ith an a ir wrench. A piece o f th e Jock-washer tore a ltole tn a m an's eyeball Normally, you have a devil o f a hard time selling the man in the shop that there is any particular haz ard there; but be believes it now. bidden* tally, he is in o u r employ and we do not fed that we should discriminate against his lack o f binocular vision. T he intelligence level there takes care o f many things. H e has learned an awfnlly good lesson and he tees twice as fast with one q e FR A N K K. BOYLE {Brown-Lipe-Chapm Division, General Motors G o ip , Syracuse, New* Y o rk ): In the doctor's statistics, how many* cases involved syphilis and do acci dent aggravate the condition? CHAIRMAN CAMERON: Dr. David son, will you mice th at question? DR. D A V ID SO N : A very insignificant proportion. I haven't the exact figure. MR. BOYLE: Is it true, doctor, in the sa te of New York that if a person has syphilis and an aeddoat aggravates the con dition he gets compensation fo r total blind ness? DR. DAVIDSON: According to our taws, if syphilis preexists an accident he gets paid for the loss regardless o f the pre existing condition. A ggravation is a ground fo r compensation. G etting Em ployee C ooperation CHAIRMAN CAM ERON: I think this very logically leads us op to T h e p ro and con of die compulsory goggle rule.** W e have had several questions turned in. T he first one is. "Any eye protecti on cam paign depends on the worker. How do you gain his cooperation? W hat is the supervisor's place in the program?" Dr. Hazlett, I should like to have you tell us a little about how you gain the worker's cooperation in wearing goggles. N ote we have two things here. W e have one the mat ter o f making the wearing o f goggles a con dition o f employment, just like punching a time dock o r anything else. W e have the other problem o f a selling campaign to get the workers to w a r goggles voluntarily with perhaps a tittle pressure now and then from the supervisor. VfiU you take th a t first. Dr. Hazlett?. DR. T. LYLE H A ZLETT: In regard to the employee, I think th at w e can educate hhn by means o f example. I r has a very id lin g effect. W e all f e d th at a g re a t m a jority o f the eye accidents can be eliminated if we do have proper protection. W e s till o f course, hare the timekeeper o r the engineer who may have an accident when walking down an aisle, b u t eye accidents can be d im mated by malting the enployecs more con scious o f the effects o f simple eye injuries. Often If the employees are shown a break-dotra o f manor accidents occurring in different divisions, it will m ake them real ise tie size o f this whole problem. I think we can sell this to employees by gradual education, malting them more conscious o f the number of cases occurring during* a 70 291h Xalional Safely Congress period of time. This must be continuous. By keeping after it all the tim e -we feel th at we can create a great deal of additional interest in the conservation of eyes in industry. G oggle Difficulties S. W ARZALA (Cairo Chemical Division, American Cyanide C o , Bound Brook, X. J . ) : In o u r experience, there is ho difficulty with the worker about the wearing o f gog gles. The worker will w ear goggles when ever we c u t furnish him a satisfactory goggle, but I do not laum* o f any goggle manufactured today that yon can call a sat isfactory goggle for our purpose. Where you can wear a spectacle type of goggle and where you can wear a cup type goggle, perforated to provide ventilation, you may use th at goggle very* w elt; but where you must have a goggle that covers your eyes completely and have it practically* ltcnxtetteally tight then w e do n o t have a goggle on the market th at win satisfy that condition. W e have eye accidents io industry largely because men cannot w ear goggles all the time, and they* cannot see in connection with their work the different places where they are required to w ear goggles; therefore, tlu-y get into trouble. In one ease we had a drum standing on end. covered with a removable top. In the top was a bole about tw o inches in diam eter. Liquid caustie was kept in this drum. The rod with which they mixed this liquid caustic was not available. A n employee, wearing glasses like my own and having only one good eye. found a piece o f pipe a half-inch in diameter. The pipe w as about 45 to <46 inches long. The drum was about 40 inches high. H e stuck the pipe into the drum. On the bottom was about tw o inches o f this caustic. A crust had formed on top. As the pipe strode the bottom a d rop of arid, believe it o r not, flew through the pipe and under his glasses and into the good eye -mind you. into the good eye I will jrive you another example. A man again was handling caustic wearing rubber goggles, They were rubber goggles that cov ered the eyes. U nder one o f the eyes there was anfepenzng o f about one-eighth o f an inch. A jpaop o f a d d found that opening, lodged the eye and produced an injury. W e communicated with the m anufacturers o f the goggles. They showed great interest and as a result they are trying a new ex periment; they have sent us four goggles of different designs. W e have tried them on 100 men. Seventy-five men were able to use one o f those goggles so that they covered the eye completely. T h e others required other fits. Xow even in the fitting o f goggles there hasn't been much progress; all of the goggles seem to be poured o u t of one mould, and if they do not fit, well, ft is just too bad. The reason the workmen do not wear goggles is because there are no goggles that they can wear eight hours a day and do any work and under the circumstances we certainly cannot require it. 1 should like to see a goggle produced that a man will be able to wear alt day long and have -complete protection, not only against flying objects but also against cor rosive liquids and materials. CHAIRM AN CAMERON : H as anyone had any experience in relation to eye pro tection fo r the znan who is handling arid and caustics? MR. B O Y L E; 1 think that problem also involves the Interstate Commerce law. When empties are shipped, if there is any thing in those empties and the truckman suffers an eye injury* the concern that ts shipping them back is involved. CH A IRM A N C A M E R O N : T hat is a very good point, the legal responsibility of the company shipping the containers. EDGAR X. GOLDSTEIN (Consulting Safety* Engineer, San Francisco): I think that die idea of having one type o f goggle that is going to do for every industrial con dition is expecting ju s t a little too much. You cannot do that any mote than you can give a carpenter one tool and have him do all the carpenter w ork that is necessary. However, some of the manufacturers make goggles with different nose bridge widths and if they are properly adjusted a man can wear a pair of those spectacles all day, just as easily as he can wear a pair o f ordinary* spectacles that he may require on account of his eye condition. I want to ask if the presort trend is toward 47 millimeter instead o f 50 milli meter in order to afford better fit? Eye Protection 71 4? a t 50 M illim eters C H A IR M A N C A M ERO N : The question U w hether in the use o f industrial spec tacles the 47 millimeter, which is the smaller size, the more o r less standard size, U better from an optica] standpoint, although per haps not so good from a safety standpoint? Mr. Gnfibert, will you answer that question? H A R R Y G U IL B E R T : Y our question is a very good ooe. 2 am going to ask an ex pert to answer it, if I may. Dr, Davidson, of the Pullman Car W orks, will yon come here for a moment and answer the gentle m an's question? DR. H . P. DAVIDSON (Pullman Stand ard C ar M anufacturing Co., Chicago): It depends entirely upon the su e o f the man's face. O f course, you can decenter any lens, hut you have to take into consideration the build o f the man. F o r instance, when you have a very small, wizened man. If you put a 50 millimeter goggle on him, his goggle would stand out like wings, so in that case you would have to put on the 47. If you have a man w ith a large face, then you would put 50 o r even larger on him. M R. G U IL B E R T : I thtnlc that Dr. Goldstem m ade a very good point there about a carpenter doing a job with one tool. T think that most o f us realize that there are hun dreds o l thousands of men m America today wearing goggles all day long. In our particular organization there are 25,000 men and women wearing goggles eight hours a day. T h at is the answer. O f course, it is im possible to make ooe goggle to suit every occasion. I think that W alter King will bear me ou t on that, and he has had a great deal more experience along those lines than 2 have. W e worked together on the problem over twenty years ago. But today, let me repeat, that in o ur particular case every man and even* woman wears goggles while they are working. If a visitor comes to the plant he protects his eyes or he doesn't get into the plant, and 7 mean superintendents, vice presidents, foremen and everybody else. There is a sign a t the entrance to each plant, signed by the president o f The Pullman Company, that eliminates an arguments from some o f these wise guys who come along and want to get into the plant without glasses. P e r sonally, T have had more trouble with the so-called executives than I have had with workmen. I am not an expert, but you can put toy subject in a nutshell. It is prevoiting eye accidents. And the only way to do it, fat my opinion, is to g et every man in the shop to protect hts sight, because there is not a m an m this room o r anywhere rise who can lay down a set o f rules and say that accidents are going to happen here o r they are going to happen there o r they w ere unexpected. Well, management, o f coarse is supposed to be intelligent enough to take care o f the uno tpected situations. I want to bring out one very important point i f I may- It Is th is: T o get men to take care of their right we must render a service to them. W hen you take an auto mobile to a service station the attendant does everything but brush your teeth. Now in the average plant in America there is a tool room where men turn in their tools, hot in this average plant where men are glv at eye protection the management leaves it to the men to take eare o f their eye protec tion and the men do not do it. T hat is what I call "individual control." Yon must sub stitute central control. L et m e illustrate briefly. I took a tour through one of our shops the other day where there a re 1,700 men and I scrutinized very carefully every man whom 2 passed. T was ra every department 2 did not see one o f th e 1.700 max w ithout goggles. Even.* pair o f goggles th at I looked a t fitted the man and were dean. W hy? Because those men have the privilege of going to w hat we call the goggle and respiratory disposary* any time of the day and night, to get what in my opinion Is the cru x o f the whole thing, and that is a proper adjustment. W hen you buy a pair o f glasses---and lots o f the men here a re w earing glasses--w hat is the first thing that is done fo r you? Thor are adjusted, aren 't thqy, and they a re contin ually getting out o f adjustm ent Even the fellow's a the office. N ow w hat chance do you think the n a n in the shop has of keep ing his goggles in such condition th a t they fit him properly all day long? H e hasn't. M R. BO YLE: M r. Gmlbert, who adjusts the goggles in your organization? MR. G U ILB ERT: A full-time man, and he is doing a very" excellent job. t could prove that to you better if you could talk to some o f tire max and find out how they feel 72 29th .Xational S a fely Congress about it. It is very unfair, I think, to expect 5,000 men in a plant to be very happy about wearing goggles all day long and do a good job if yon do not render this sendee that 1 am talking about. `'Cafeteria** Service CHAIRMAN CA M ERO N : X think maybe wc have another answer here to that same question while we are on it. M r. Simpson, of the CalefxnUar T racto r Company, 1 think lias a o fe te ria wagon that goes around and fits goggles. Will yon tell them about that, M r. Simpson f H. S. S IM PS O N : W e have tire problem oi some 160 o r 170 acres o f property, of which 70 acres arc covered with buildings. There is a tot o f walking involved. W e pay pwplc to work, and if they are In the hack end o f the shop, u e figured that we could >avc tnuney by using a posh cart, like one of llioie ice cream carts with a lot o i dis infectant*. etc. That c an is in circulation in each division continually on each s h ift T he operator o f a cart goes right down an aisle and tops and talks to tlte machine operator, o r whoever the person might be. One of iho^e service men will cover from 100 to ISO employee* per shift. There are five people doing thaL It means that 1 continu ally have my hands on the focal point of that many conversations with that many onplayces. There are a lot of duplications, but it gives one a very good opportunity to know what die feeling is on certain things. It gives you a rather rapid return on the fittings. On ibis fitting proposition and on procriplion glasses, our safety glasses do fit very definitely into the program, but they them* elves are not the total answer. The goggle manufacturer cannot make lirains for your men. Wednesday night five of our executives ric hi here, and tlie lop man of the group had hi safety glasses <m. He had gotten 155 miles away from the plant and had not thought o f them yet--so they must have hurt hi< eyes very much. In decentering, we hate an overall geometric sign through the cutler o f the lens and quite often we can dcornier two millimeters each way. We like to go a little to the outside, but if we go too far, on the second shift where we have artificial illumination we get hack lighting which gives you more trouble than anything else. CHAIRMAN CAM ERON: W haven't answered your question y et; we arc still hoping that we may gcr the answer. MR. W ARZALA: I know that. Mr. Chairman. ] think that m any intelligent dis cussion of the goggle question, we ought to make some distinction between goggles that are used in plants where corrosive liquids arc handled and plants that do not handle them. On the train coming to Chicago I heard about an interesting accident. An other girl was sitting down doing her work, and another girt standing in hack of her ua< handing tier a piece o f paper. J> taking it, Mjmchow die sheet o f paper lit Jier eye. It came right across the bill of the vy. The girl naturally blinked her eye and con tinued working and did not report to the medical department that day. She reported the following day and by that time infec tion had set in, and I understand that tin* girl right now is in the Eye and Ear Hos pital. in New York City. When you are handling corrosive mate rial tie plain eye glass kind of a goggle will not do. Neither will the cup goggle with ventilation, that is, with screens, 'baffles or other thing. We have used the notl-anrfshakc goggles, but there is a complaint against them. It is a small goggle that fits tightly over the eye. The frame is filled with water. When the goggle fogs up and you cannot see. you just shake your head and the water in the goggle washes it off. There U distortion of vision, headaches, anil a lot o f *>ier thing.. Now these ruWjcr cup goggle cover the eyes completely, but they* are not satisfactory So hi any dicukm of goggle that anybody makes, 1 iioutd like to *ee a distinction drawn. Let u< talk about goggle* for non-coTTosive material and goggles for comKive materials. Suggested Com mittee Study CHAIRM AN CAM ERO N ; Let me a.fc Mrs. Merrill a question. Would it be pos sible to set up a technical subcommittee within the National Society that could study this problem during the year and report hack to the Congress next year, or if there is a report nt the meantime, could it be made available to the National Safctv Coun cil? Eye Protection 73 M RS. M ER R ILL : 1 think, i t we can have the cooperation o f o ar Industrial A d' visory Committee and o f the Safety Direc tors. th a t it would be possible through the National Society to carry a clearing: o f that m fe rm tio a and 10 u s a b l e material. CH A IRM A N CAMERON: How does that sound to you folks m the audience? M R. B O Y L E: I was in the Willis Morrell plant at Elm ira to get the result of an eye surrey. This was prior to the time they made physical examinations of employees. A number of accidents had occurred and they found that two canpluyics were totally blind in one eye and did not know i t I will ask the lady if she has ever had that ex* lenoK e M RS. M ER R ILL : I think for that par* titu la r question, the leader o f the discussion might want to ask somceme else for a an* fiver. CH A IRM A N CAMERON: Ye*. I have quite a few questions just on physical ex* animation and how much stress should be laid on the eyes. Let's try to settle this equipment problem if we can. Is there any* body in the audience who has made a home* made goggle o r something else that answers this caustic and corrosive problem? M ining Experience AT AMRAM (Hamlm & Co^ New York C ity): W e have been discussing eye protec* lion for various industries, and 1 dare a y the industry m which they have dot acci dents than anywhere rise is the mining m* doflfy. According to Dr. Davidson, 28 per f a t have defective vision, a larger percent* ace than m any other industry* 1 should like to go on record as oym g that 1 do not quite agree with the comment that this if perhaps due to inferior intelli gence. In my work, which takes me to a few* mines---f am net a mine inspector but nevertheless it is one o f my duties and I am referring to southeastern Missouri, to Utah, ami Nevada--I find that the miner is just a intelligent as any industrial worker. W e have the greatest difficulty, especially out in the -western nones, to get the proper type of protection. 1 might perhaps illus trate that by a letter I have just received from a mine superintendent who is oat In California. H e says: " R eferring to o ur conversation in regard to making our men wear goggles, w e wish to speed this matter all passible. W e ju st had another very bitter experience: one of our men had a little dost in his eye and the local doctor treated It fo r about ten days.** I might say that we are eighty miles away from any doctor, o r a t least from any eye specialist. The letter continues: MAs he did not improve, we sent him to a specialist and he reports that th e man will have permanent impaired vision; probably due to improper treatm ent Aa we told you, 60 per cent o f our accidents are eye trouble caused by dost and i f wc can find goggles that o n be worn underground without fogging we want to start using them a t once." Well, I thought o f a friend of mine, a superintendent o f a mine; who had had a great deal of trouble getting the men to w ear the right type o f goggles, but he finally thought th at he had solved the problem; so I wrote to him so that 1 could inform our m utual friend in California what he had done. This is what he says: "A t one time we thought we had solved the problem with a certain type o f glass goggle, but it turned out th at doe to certain a ir cottous and conditions these goggles only worked satisfactorily to one place. W ith the same men wearies the same goggles and being transferred to another part of the mine, the glass fogged up immediately and it was impossible lo use them successfully. "These glass goggks arc much more sat isfactory where there is a perceptible move* morn o f a<r, as it seems to take care o f the fogging. "W e still use ki most cases a very* crude wire goggle, which you are perfectly famil iar with and wc all consider very* crude.** DR. M. DAVIDSON; Mr. Chairman, may J say that I (fid not mean to reflect on the intelligence o f miners. I used that word because Mr. M urray, who reported his find ings, explained the eye incidence among miners on that hasis and I was just quoting him. A_ H . T R E ST R A IL (Pickands. M ather & Co., Caspian, M ich.): I have been in mining about twenty-one years. When wc first started out we had the goggle question. W e still have it somewhat At first we tried to get m e t in certain occupations to w ear goggles, and while we saved some eyes that 74 2?th National S afety Congress way, we found out that we Jost eyes in other occupations. W e finally came to the conclusion that it would be necessity to have every man on the job, whether underground o r on the surface, wear goggles. A t first we experim ented w ith th e sc r co i goggles, but they w ere not satisfactory*. T h e argument against the glass goggle was that it fogged. W e got away from fogging largely by having proper ventilation in our mining places. T h e wearing o f goggles is the hardest on the supervisor who has to travel from one place in the mine to another. I f a fellow is working in a warm place his gog gles become adjusted to that temperature and he does oot hat a great deal of trouble, but the supervisor the man who goc* from one temperature to another, does Itavc trouble. W e aim to have o u r temperatnre in the mine uniform all the way through, b u t that is impossible in certain types o f naming, especially where you have heavy timber formation o r bodies o f ore adjacent to sulphur-bearing rock. W e came to the conclusion that a h alf a loaf is better than none W e do not claim th at we are going to prevent anybody from becoming blind; we a re not guaranteeing that; but if we can save 90 or 95 per cent o f our eye accidents, we are going to do thaL fit case oi eye injuries, we take o u r men by automobile seventy-six miles: we just simply put the man in an automobile and take him to an eye specialist. In a group of 600 men, we have had within the last two year* two eye injuries where there was a short period of disability*. One o f them ran as rauch as fourteen days. We have had compulsory* goggle use xa our mines now for two years, and in that time the maximum disability has been fourteen days. W e Haven't had any lost eyes. In the company's experience in the entire Lake Superior district, where w e have ap proximately 1.200 to 1,500 men employed and our records are interchangeable; I know of only one ease that a man had a severe eye injury* while wearing goggles. I have also observed that the man who has to wear goggles with prescription lenses, somehow o r other overcomes all the diffi culties that these other fellows complain about. C A. De M ONGE (Kelsey* Hayes Wheel Co.. Detroit. M ich.): I want to ask Mr. Goiibcrt what type o f goggle he uses and whether the company pays the cost o f fur nishing the goggles? C H A IR M A N C A M E R O N : T he question is whether o r not yon furnish prescription goggles to ymu* men, and if so do you charge th e n for the prescription or do you furnish them free o f charge, and what con trol do you have over then? MR. G U ILB B R T: We furnish everything free of charge MR. TR E STR A IL; So do w e ' M R. De M O N G E : Do you use one type of goggle all the way through? MR. G U IL B E R T ; No, the few er types the better, in my opinion. W e use prac tically one type throughout the whole or ganization w ith very few* exceptions. MR, B O Y LE; Mr. Chairman, have you ever heard o f a glass eye exploding? C H A IR M A N CA M ERO N : Yes, I have. 1 think that perhaps a number o f people who have worked closely* with this subject have heard o f experiences of that k in d Does anyone want to say a word about glass eyes exploding? Goggles to Pit H . B. B E N JA M IN : 1 happen to have had that experience. 1 can also contribute some thing about the man u*bo nears glasses and has to w ear goggles over them. F or eleven years I have worked with goggles over my glasses. I found that the average goggle is not made to fit the average eye glass. You will notice that those in the audimee who are wearing glasses all have different style glasses. I f every man wore the same style o f glasses it would be easy* enough for any goggle manufacturer to manufacture a goggle th a t would fit over those glasses, but that is not th e case. So 1 took a pair of goggles that looked to me as though they* were right, took them apart and I ground out and c ut those protective sides to fit the glasses that I had. Now when I go to the doctor to have m y glasses changed I take the glasses th a t I w ear a t the factory*, also the glasses that I expect to wear on the s tre et and I have him make lenses for each pair o f glasses. Then I put my sides back on those glasses: You have noticed tlsat some o f them have high nose pieces and others do n o t I hap pened to be foolish enough to buy a pair of those with a high nose piece one tune. So I Eye Protection 75 took a pair o f regular goggles and made a leather nose piece. I cut it out so th at it fit properly. 1 do not use those any m ore be cause I like the pair that f made out o f the other goggles the best; but I loan those goggles to m m w ho w ant to visit the departm eit As to glass eyes exploding, a glass eye is hollow, in an egg shell. T here is a certain amount of a ir in there that gets hot. In feet, if one is in a very h o t place, it almost turns to steam I f y t step out into cold air im mediately where a cold breete hits th at sud denly, it is likely to explode. I have had It happen three times. CHAIRMAN! CA M ERO N : That is just the kind o f practical experience we need. Thank you. MR. T R E S T R A IL : T h a t is a good argu ment to convince any man that he should wear goggles. A Study R esolution ROV S. fiO N S Ifi (Standard OD C o, New* J e rse y ): T h e suggestion was made that this question o f the devdopmest of proper eye protection should be studied by the National Society . I n order to focus the thing, I think it woold be w ell`if we could state that it is the consensus o f this session that this thing should be studied, possibly through the National Soetiey in cooperation with the National Safety Cottndl, through the Goggle M anufacturers Association, through the Bureau of Standards, and other agencies th at a re hi a position to con tribute to the details. I think th a t should be done because talking is never going to get us anywhere. In older to bring it to a head, 1 suggest that that action be taken. CH A IRM A N C A M E R O N : AH rightA ll is favor of requesting that this group go on record as requesting that the National Society or the Prevention o f Blindness, in cooperation with the National Safety Coun cil and the Bureau o f Standards and the Safety Equipment M anufacturers Associ ation, set up a technical committee to study types and kinds o f goggles for various jobs and that th eir recommendations be presented before this group a t the next Congress, raise your hands. Opposed? ft is carried. MRS. M ER R ILL : 1 am glad to have that request. Job Placem ent CHAIRMAN CAMERON: I think that the m atter o f bring seventy o r eighty m iles away from an eye specialist may be covered somewhat in this next phase o f o u r dis cussion. "W hat are the bare essentials th a t we must know about a man's eyes before job placement?" Or. HaxJett, would you care -to comment co th at question? DR. T. LYLE H A ZL ETT : I think that most of us are interested in the basic prin ciple o f visual acuity which has m ore to do with jo b placement than any other fac tor. There are a few occupations, o f coarse, where color tests are necessary and also depth perception, but, a$ a ruh^ i f we have visual acuity we should be able to place a man on such a job that he can c a n y ott without any injury to himself o r m jw y to other workers beside him. CHAIRMAN CAM ERON: There is another question on that same subject h ere: "To what extent docs industry refuse em ployment to one-eyed men?" D ocs anyone hare anything aa that subject? Suppose that a good machinist comes in b at he has only one eye? Do you turn him dow n? E. F. TIX G L E Y (United Gas Pipe U s e ` Ccu Houston, T e x a s): We do not hire ma chinists. We turn anybody down w ho hasn't good vision to begin with. I f they lose th eir vision while they a re worfcxcg w ith us, w e take care o f them from that time on out. W e find some job to put them on w here they won't h u rt anybody, but when you are fondling natural gas under high pressures you want the man to see where he is going *o that he can take care o f the rest o f them . We do not have them all under one roof where we can say, "You do this and you do that," We may have a man twenty oules from any other fellow and h e has a job to take care of and he must do it. C H AIRM A N C A M E R O N ; I will a sk Mr. K roger if he wifi make a oontributaon on this subject. W hat do you do w ith men who come in with defective eyes? MR. KROGER*; The gentleman has staled that we need physically fit men, but T should like to remind yon that industry is doing things fo r a reason, and If they will take a one-eyed man on a certain jo b o r they won't take a one-eyed man, surely something must have taken place in the past to justify such a rule or restriction. 76 29th National Sa fety Congress Vuil cannot expect the boss to open a has and lei you dip y o u r hand in as regard* every one-eyed man who comes to the gate and asks for a job. W e exponents o f safety realize that we have a rehabilitation pro* gram in o u r forge plants. Ten o r fifteen years ago our eye losses were terrific. Com ing to our employment office now and asking for a new job is like asking for threequarters o f the stock in our company. W e Jo not have such a tiling as a new employee. The labor legislation took care of that, but we do this: We do not expert our doctor in examining anyone's eyes to tell us where the man should work. W c fed th a t w e know wliat kind o f eyes arc required cm a job. 1 think it is one o f tltr greatest evil to expect any doctor to know all about what is going on in your shop and what kind o f glasses are needed for each job. H e is out of order when he attempts that. If a man tu n in g in happens to be a clerk, we liave no restriction against his king derical work, o r if he happens to be a draftsman. We fed that we are aide to take care o f such one-eyed men. O ur ex perience in the shop is very much like the gentleman mentioned. Those who hare lost a a eye while employed by us w e win take care of, but wc will not take any others. B ut in my opinion, sooner o r later we are going to have to take them, and I hope that we do not get into the national defense program to the extent tlial we have to take too many until our brethren, the manufacturers, really find something that will take care o f the one-eyed man as well - the two-eyed man. Depth Perception and Color Blindness CHAIRMAN CAM ERON: 1 have another question in this same field: "Defec tive eyesight has been named as one o f the contributing causes o f accidents. Give actual case* where lack o f depth perception or color blindness o r other defects caused ac cidents." I understand that Dr. Kuhn is in the audienee, who has made quite a study o f this subject* and 1 am going to call on her. DR. HEDWIG S. KUHN (Hammond. Ind.): In direct answer to the question as to whether depth perception has caused acci dent!, we have so many illustrations in o ur re o a t survey o f 16,000 individuals and their defects m industry that I could quote them indefinitely. T here was the crane opera to r who said, after he had had his depth perception and muscle imbalance corrected after six months of training orthoptieally, "The fellows under me can now w ork with n itt} '. When 1 first came in I could not tell within 20 feet where 1 was dropping my load. Now I can put it on a dime." An ingenious safety director in a large corporation who had a man with no depth perception Mantel to prove to Jnm<el/ that there was a hazard. So he took away all of the stationary machinery that he could pos sibly move away, desiroiiug the landmarks with which this man had been working, and he said to him ; "Go about your business." Hut he couldn't drop bis load within 15 feet o f where he was supposed to a fte r the removal o f the permanent fixtures which had guided him in his job. Now with a crane operator who works with permanent fixtures, that is ooe thing; with somebody who works with changing condition*, like tractor drivers and auto mobile drivers, e tc , it is another thing; wc liave never dug out the accident records on depth perception alone. But our cliart* show how many more people with lost-time accident did have depth perceptual defect*. 1 am going to interject here one o r two "latefnent* that are, I hope, a contribution to thi- dicusion. O ur obligation to protect the w orker's eyesight we feel is greater than realized, and includes, as D r. Davidson indicated, a d ditional factors besides goggles and the tudy o f aecidoits and data on acuity. His lasts of 8 per cent of serious visual defects was on a compensation basis, whereas 20/20 > ta k e i as normal. O u r figure o f 15 per cent of x-rious eye defects is on the basis of what we designate a practically normal vikm from industry** standpoint and. therefore, includes also serious eye muscle imbalances which interfere directly from a afetr standpoint with that person's job. I think that ophthalmologists e u learn and cooperate with managesent on what an in dividual's eye should do. because when we arc all done figuring it out w ith manage ment, we have to help them cor r ect them, don't we? The concept is that visual performance, as" Dr. Davidson indicated, is a varying function arising from varying demands of the job. W e designate eyes for the job and fiyi* Protection 77 I lave just two th o u g h t to contribute to ihi tWcurton. T he first in that there h a direct correlation between visual perform ance ami accuracy, and accuracy is the same iking a efficiency. T he scccmd i- a reference to Xfr. Cameron's statement o f the .hortage of skilled labor. 1 take this figure nut of r project; Accordinp to statistics, at the efficiency " { the present emptenred fo rce o f slciilnl lal>r could 1 increased three to five per rent, it would cancel oot the present lack of skilled Ia1 r o r the likelihood o f such a shortage occurring. Job training imidc of industry, plu* the proper type o f physical examination which includes visual per* toniunec a* an aptitude fe<t w hich mean* tmire than acuity, could accomplish this three to five per cent increase in efficiency, and it Hvtilil do this without am* of the lerMtnri problems, dislocations and morinc of jobs, strikes, grievance committees, etc. While machine power has been geared ap to 1 icr cent o f its efficiency*. human p tu c r or efficiency* ha as yet Iwcn geared uttly to 40 o r 60 per cent o f its efficiency. MR. T12CGUEY: 1 do not w ant you to im -tm 'W -tind me al>out mt takm s (wiiplv into industry jo st because they* have one eye. W e take clerical w orkers and people like that with very* poor vision if they are corrected with glasses, but it happots that o u r particular industry* t$ very dangerous MR. K ROGER; 1 meant no slam at doc tors when l made mention as 1 did. 1 will <iy this to 1>r. Kuhn o r to any other ophthalmologist, optometrist, o r any* other man who attempt to make fittings com mensurate with the classifications o f work, fcive him to me for six montits and let him walk daily with me through the plant and after he gets his mechanical knowledge and education as to what is required of the worker, t will bet my shirt he can fit glasses 100 per c e il better than he did. CHAIRMAN* CAM ERON': I think chat you ami Dr. K uhn should get together, beexu-c I think that she also la s had a great deal o f practical experience. I understand that the National Society for the Prevention o f Rltndness going to make available the (taper covering the results o f a long series of studies performed by Dr. Kuhn to mem bers o f the National Safety Council and of the National Society. Thank you very much for your splendid cooperation this morning. a d jo u r n m e n t