Document peXy6n7k0m4K6Rgw8aLJL3ZQ7

OF PROCEEDINGS IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF DELAWARE IN AND FOR NEW CASTLE COUNTY MONSANTO COMPANY, Plai , " "-nv' * C'U rt -- - - ^ 1RETY I0MPANY, x Civil Action Number 38C-JA-118-i CV NON-ARBIT RAT ON Defendants DEPOSIT!IN OF R. EMMET KELLY Wii.tington, Delaware Wednesday, January 27, 1993 ACE - FEDERAL REPORTERS. INC. Stenorype Reporters " 120 G Street. NW Wasninoton. D.C. 20005 (202) 347-3700 NATIONWIDE COVERAGE 800-336-6646 WATER PCB-SD0000062633 OF THE STATE OF DELAWARE IN AND FOR NEW CASTLE COUNTY' x MONSANTO COMPANY, Plaintiff, : Civil Action Number v. : 38C-JA-118-1-CV AETNA CASUALTY & SURETY COMPANY, : NON-ARBITRATION : CASE Deiendants. x DEPOSITION OF R. EMMET KELLY Wilmington, Delaware Wednesday, January 07, 1953 Deposition of EMMET FELLY, called for examination pursuant to notice of deposition, at tda law offices cc Ouar.e, Morris and Heckscher, 1201 Market Street, Fifteenth r1CC- , at 10 : 05 a.m. before JULIE BARER, a Notary Public within and f o r the Distnot w iZ wO-- A*. -- 3L , when were present on behalf of the respective parties: t"" ' a, r> Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062634 APPEARANCES: JOHN M. BRAY, ESQ. Schwalb, Donnenfeld, 3ray ` & Silbert 1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, N.W. Suite 300 Washington, D. C. 20007 On behalf of Plaintiff Monsanto Company. DAVIT S. FLORIG, ESQ. Manta and Welge One Commerce Square Thirty-Seventh Floor 2005 Market Street Philadelphia, Pennsylvania On behalf of Liberty Mutual Insurance Company. 13102 richard l. McConnell, jr., Wiley, Rein & Fielding 1776 K Street, N.W. ~ Washington, D. C. 20006 On behalf of The Travelers Indemnity Company. esq. Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 80O-336-646 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062635 ; WITNESS i R. Emmet Kelly | by Mr. McConnell i i COM''"" NTS EXAMINATION 4 E X I-I ~ 5 ITS KST'Y IETPC ITICN NUMBER Exhibit: - . 11/11/54 Meeting minutes Exhibit: ^ * ADnl 19 62 Organizational chart Exhibit w " 4/11/57 Memo Exhibit i - 9/28/70 Letter Exhibit 3 - 7/3/52 Memo Exhibit o - 3/14/56 Letter Exhibit "7 - 3/20/56 Letter Exhibit 3 - March 1963 Report on cancer and . chemical structure by Jack Garrett 4 3- n. ^ W - 6/30/54 Memo Exhibit 10 - Article Exhibit -- -- - 10/9/48 Latter Exhibit 1^ - 4/5/61 Memo Exhibit 1. J - 4/11/61 Memo Exhibit 14 - 2/25/53 Memo Exhibit -- 3 - Excerot Exhibit - 0 - 9/13/59 Letter Exhibit 17 - 7/25/47 Memo Exhibit 13 - 5/20/46 Memo Exhibit 19 - 12/8/53 Letter Exhibit 20 - 1/19/59 Memo Exhibit 21 - 5/29/58 Memo Exhibit 2 2 - 6/2/58 Memo ai J - 3/4/64 Memo .L. W ai ** - 3/10/64 Letter Exhibit - 6/11/53 Letter Exhibit 2 5 - -77/58 Letter 25 5"o 69 78 82 91 95 106 115 123 -31 13 4 US 144 147 c^ 15 3 m 164 16c ITS 173 179 130 133 13 5 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coveraee :02-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062636 4 ?RG Whereupon, R. EMMET KELLY was called as a witness and, having first been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: THE WITNESS: 3v the way, I have somewhat of a hearing impairment so I may ask you at times no speak a little louder. MR. MC CONNELL: If you will co than, I'll try to speak up and if you have any trouble hearing me, sir, I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know. THE WITNESS: I shall. _ EXAMINATION BY MR. MC CONNELL: 1 Would you stace your full name, crease. A R., for Robert, Emmet Kelly. 0 And where do you live, sir? A St. Louis, Missouri, 565 South Skinker, 5-k-i-n-k-e-r, 63105. 1 And how lone have vou lived at that address, 3X_ . 18 years, 20 years. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. \anonwiae Coverage 102-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-634-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000062637 MR. MC CONNELL: Off the record. (Discussion off the record.) . 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: 2 Dr. Kelly, my name is Dick McConnell. I'm one of the attorneys for The Travelers Indemnity Company in this case. I'd like to make sure we understand each other today and so if at any time there's any confusion in your mono about my question, please let me know and I'll be glad to oiear it up for you. Is that all right, sir? A Thank you. Yes, sir. Q Are you being represented by counsel in this deposition, Dr. Kelly? A> Yes, I am. And who ls \ . 32TSV . cc ur.se i , sir? W Do you understand that he's one of the attorneys bnsan tic in -his case? A Yes , I do. 2 Who is paying Mr. Brav' s legal fees in tonnectior. with this deposition, Dr. Kelly? MR'. BRAY: I reject to that. THE WITNESS: I don't know. It's not I, Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 102-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062638 6 hough. I'm not paying it. BY MR. MC CONNELL: Q You're not paying any legal fees to Mr. 3rav? MR. BRAY: Same objection. THE WITNESS: That is correct. . 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: Q Do you know whether Monsanto is paying his fees, Q eposi: A A r-s\' A MR. BRAY: Same objection. THE WITNESS: I don't know. BY MR. MC CONNELL: Did you do anything to prepare for this i, Dr. Kelly? I talked with Mr. Bray yesterday. For about how long, sir? Five hours. Where did that meeting take place? In Wasninaton at their -- Was it Mr. 3rav's :e." Mr. 3rav's office. Was there anvone else orese~t at that meeting? No, sir. People drcptied in, secretaries droop Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coveraee 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062639 I - in with various messages hut r.o other legal peo pie were there. 1 3Q . Did you review any documents in that meeting? 4 ! A I beg your pardon? t D Q Did you review any documents in that meeting? 5 A No, sir. We discussed some. I did.n' t read them / or analyze them. 3 Did you have them on the table where you could 5 see them 10 * i_ ! 12 13 A Some, yes, sir. . Q Did you read portions of them? A Yes, sir. Q Did Mr. Bray direct your attention to portions of them? A Yes, sir. 1 5 Q Did you b rang any of the documents wi th you c r - were they provided bv ^ *** . 3ray? 13 A Provided bv Mr . Brav. I brought n '-\ o today and none yesterday. Is that what you meant? Di - : bring anv :o with me? I brought none this mcrr. ing and I brc ught none vesterdav. Q Anv do camenos that vou reviewed yesterday were Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 S00-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062640 Z 4 Z> V 3 documents that Mr. 3rav provided? A That is correct. Q Have you had any other meetings with any of Monsanto's attorneys in connection with this case? A Yes, with Mr. Sniveiv. Q And Mr. Sniveiv is a lawyer in Monsanto's law department? A That's correct. I think he also represents me in this case. 13 Q Mr. Sniveiv is representing you in this case, in connection with this case along with Mr. Bray? 12 A That's correct. ' 7 Q On how many occasions have you met with Mr. Sniveiv? A with regarc to this case? 0 Yes, sir. A Twice. 2 When hid those meetings take place CM A Within the last four weeks . Q Were those also meetings to prepar s tei Voc Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2350 WATER_PCB-SD0000062641 tD 3 Q When did the first meeting with Mr. Snivel-/ take ciace, Sr. Kelly? > A Gosh, I can't tell you the exact date. I have it in my diary at home hut not with me. But it was within the last four weeks, I think. Q How long did you meet with Mr. Snivel-/ on that occasion? A .About four hours one day and about five hours the next day. Q When was the next meeting with Mr. Snively, sir? A About a week after the first one, so that would be three weeks ago. Q And how long did you meet with Mr. Sniveiv on A. Again, four ;r five hours. Q So you actually met with Mr. Snivel/ on three seoarate days? A Two separate oavs. ~ Two separate cays? A. That' s correct. 1 And four to five hours on each day? ' .A That's correct. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 S00-336-6646 410-684-2350 WATER PCB-SD0000062642 10 Q Have you had any other meetings, Dr. Kelly, with any of Monsanto's other attorneys in connection with this case? A Not that I recall. Q When you met with Mr. Sniveiy, did you review any documents with him? A No, sir, I don't think so. I think he just gave me the details of the litigation. Q Let me ask you about your education, Dr. Kelly. Where did you attend college, sir? A St.Louis University. Q What was your degree in? A 3achelor cf science in medicine in 1930 and the MD degree from the same institution in 1932. 1 So you attended medical school at the same universitv in St. Louis? A That's correct. Q And vcu received vour MD degree in 1932? A Yes, sir. Q Did you have any other formal education after A Yes. Weil, I had three vears training at Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. N'anonwiae Coverage 202-347-3700 S00-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062643 11 St. Louis City Hospital. I've had various short postgraduate courses at various medical schools. They were one or two weeks longer. If that's what you mean by formal education. Q The three years at the St. Louis Hospital, was that the normal residency and internship that doctors do after medical school? A Yes, sir. Q The postgraduate courses didn't lead to a degree? A I beg your pardon? No. It did not. Q Where were you employed after medical school, Dr. Kelly, after you became a fully licensed practicing ohvsician? A Weil, I was employed at City Hospital for three years. After I left City Hospital, I was in private practice for about six months, and then I became employed by the Monsanto Company as a physician on a part-time basis until I went in the service. And after I left the service in 1946, I came back to Monsanto in a full-time geographical position. Q Let me go back to your private practice in the Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062644 2 six months after your internship. Did you specialise in any particular area? A No, sir. This was in 1932 or '35 after the hospital -- there was a depression and I don't think there was much specialization. Q You were a general practitioner? A That's correct. Although I was trained as an internest, it was verv muen a general type or practice. Q Did you begin the part-time work as a plant physician for Monsanto in 1936? Did I hear that correctly? A Yes, sir. Q Did you continue to have a p rivata practice on the side a t that time? A Yes . Q About how much of your time was spent as a plant physician at that time? A 3 5 to 4 0 oeroer.t. . Q Was there a particular oiant you were assigned wO ? A Yes. The oiant thev called the Queer.v Plant, which was called Plant A at that time and it was chanced Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 102-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-664-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062645 to the Queeny Plant. It was located in St. leuis. 2 Was that a plant owned by Monsanto? A Yes. Q Did you serve as a plantphysician at any other tJ I Monsanto plant at any tine? 3 A Did I what? Q Was the Queenv Plant the only plant at which you served as a plant physician for Monsanto? A On a regu_ar basis that was the only one, but :q after I had been with the company for a period of months, I was given responsibilities to look over problems that 12 might have arisen or existed at other plants in the company and it turned out that I was sort of a medical directcr without portfolio. I had the ~ob of looking over tneir medical organizations or addressinc nvself to any of zr.eir medical prcolems that arose, but ; didn't have any oirect restonsibi1itv for it. . 2 What other plants did you work with in that sort of irrecuiar csDacitv, if I can call it that? A Weil, it ail depends on what time frame you're talking about. The years from 1936 to '41, when 1 went in one service, '42, 1 saw most of the plants in the United Ace-Federal Reporters, L\rc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062646 Stares. I would say we had about 10 plants around the country ar chat time, but I would see them on various occasions. Some plants I would see often. Some plants I would net see at all. Q During that period you're talking about, 1936 to 194 2, did you have a .chance tc visit ail cf the Monsanto plants that existed at that time? A I believe so in the United States and Canada. 2 tic not see any of the ex-U.S.A. plants outsits of Canada. Q Can you remember what plants you visited during those years, Dr. Kelly? A The Carondolet, C-a-r-o-n-d-o-i-e-t, plant. Q Where is that plant? A South St. Louis. It's a suburb of St. Louis. Che Cast St. Louis plant, which was called Plant S: Nitre, West Virginia; Norfolk, Virginia; Merrimac, N.-e-r-r-i-m-a-c, Massachusetts; and Springfield, Massachusetts. Q Were there also plants in Canada that you visitad ? A Yes. One in Montreal, outside cf Montreal and one outside of Corcntc. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwtae Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6t>46 . 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062647 4 4 J . yj 3 15 l Q The slant that vou referred to as the East 2 St. Louis plant or Plant 3, is that also known as the 3 Krummrich plant? 4 A Later on it was called the Krummrich plant, m vn i - co o> 5 K-r-u-m-m-r-i-c-n. 5 Q And can you remember any ethers beyond the ones 7 you've named? 3 MR. BRAY: Ethers that he visited curing that 3' i 10 period? MR. MC CONNELL: Right. 11 1 12 i 1 13 ; l '_ 11 THE WITNESS: We had some plants on the West Coast, small plywood glue plants and I don't know whether I saw that before the war or afterwards. I don't know when we acquired those plants. I yust don't know whether that was before 1942 or the early davs after 1946. 1 5 BY MR. MC CONNELL: Q You visited those West Coast plants at some 13 point, but you yust can't remerr.oer wnether it was before or after the war? 20 A That's correct. Q How often did vou visit the various oiants we'v 22 been talkir.c about in the time frame 13 3 6 to 1 94 2? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coveraee 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062648 1 | A Probably once a year with the exception of -- 2 : Columbia, Tennessee was another plant that we had. 2 i Wherever we had problems or potential problems or we were I 4 | having a new operation at one of our plants, I might visit 1 5 that often or once a year. But I would say on the 6 average, once or twice a year, but more closely to once. " I Q What types of problems did you encounter during 3 those years, Cr. Keilv? A Weil, at the Columbia, Tennessee, we were starting a plant making elemental phosphorus and we were i using German technology and they advised about what they i thought should be done on monitoring the individuals. And i I would go down to see if this was a feasible option and it really wasn't a problem, it was a potential problem. .And other plants, there may have been reauests from some of the employees that were affected on the health, some of these products capable of causing -- that I would go down and examine their exposure and talk to the groups . Sc that's the type of problem. Q Would it be fair to say you were concerned aoout the toxicity of the chemicals that were belter used at the slants ? L> U> Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coveraee 202-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-634-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062649 A Weil, no, I wasn't concerned about the toxicity because we knew industrial chemicals have a certain amount of toxicity, but I was concerned we were not coving them any harmful exposure, give the workers any harmful exposure. Q So you knew back in the 1930s anc early 1940s that many of the industrial chemicals that were being used at tnese plants were toxic? A Well, "toxic" is a relative term. They had a certain amount of toxicity but at the extent t.cat the exposure was such that there was no hazards to the workers in our operation. Q It was part of your job to make sure that the workers were not exposed to amounts of those chemicals that would damage their health? A This, w' s cc^ec - . 1 .Anc you knew at the time that tnese were toxic chemicals , that exoosure to larcer amounts would damage the workers; is that correct? MR. BRAY: Object tc the genera_ities of that question. THE WITNESS: It ail deoends on what vou mean by Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-oo46 210-634-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000062650 ; 4 2 r 2. c b 18 larger amounts but it certainly was not -- so in anvoperation, you have to balance the inherent toxicity or lack cf toxicity of the product with the exposure or the t< I lack of exposure or the amount of exposure that the worker is exposed to. In other words, no matter how toxic a compound is, if it's inside a pipe and it stays there, it isn't going to hurt them. And we had to see if there were any opportunities for escape cf these products. 3Y MR. MC 23NNELL: :o Q And conversely, you knew at the time if some cf these materials escaped from the pipes, they could be 12 harmful to the workers' health? A No, not necessarily. It all depends on how much in and it washed away, there's no hazards to the worker. 3; obviously if there was a very large breakdown under elevated temperatures, there might be sufficient axpcsur; that there's a possibility that some injury may occur tc the workers . .And there were stills from time to time at the .ants ? Yes, sir. That varies, of course, but there Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. . \ationwiae Coverage 2J2-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062651 :42Z3 . 1b 'o j cj\- vo a> i n 4* i *j M H-* o i1 i were at Lues, certainly. Could I get a glass of water, please? MR. MC CONNELL: Certainly. Why don't we go off :ne reccrt' tor a minute. (Discussion off the record.; 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: Q Dr. Kelly, what was your position during World War II? A Well, I was a member of one medical corps, anc I was assigned to two chemical warfare installations, one at Pine 3luff, .Arkansas and the other at Edgewood, Maryland. Q Would you tell us briefly what your iob involved during those years, sir. A Weil, it's really treaty much like the ~ob I had at tr.e Plant A in St. Louis. When I started, in ether worts, I was in charge of the medical department that watched over the health of the workers makir.c chemicals ammunition: i'hev manufacturer chlorine chosaene, cnostnorous r.ataim, n-a-o-a-. mustart cas. All of those materials were chemical wartare a\ Yes . Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage :i2-347-3700 800-33o-6t>46 410-654-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062652 20 Q Would it be fair to say "hey were highly toxic materials ? in in mt o> om A Not highly toxic in the sense that breathing one lungful cf it would cause a fatality, but they were made to injure the enemy so I think you could consider them toxic. Q Did you return to Monsanto after the war? A Yes, 2 did. Q And do you recall what year you went oack to Monsanto ? r--* (N m - r in m A First months of 194.6. Q And what position did you hold when you went back to Monsanto? A Well, it was a new position. It was a central staff department called the corporate medical department, anc I held the title of medical director. Q Were you at that time the medical director for 1 3 the entire company, sir? A Yes, sir. 20 Q You were responsible for medical operations at ail of the Monsanto plants? <. z A With the exceDtion of some foreicn subsidiaries, Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-34/ -3/00 80G-336-o46 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062653 such as Japan cr Sweden and where we had less chan 100 percent ownership. Q Let's restrict it to the operations in the United States and Canada. Were you responsible for all the medical operations in that area? A Yes. Q At ail of the plants? A Yes . Q How long old you remain in the post tier, of medical director, Cr. Kelly? A Until Cecemoer the 1st, 1974. Q And what happened at that point? A I hit 55. And you retiree from Monsanto? That's correct. Tid you continue to dc any consulting work for Monsanto A C did ere "irst vear or. a recu_ar oasis . then, I've done consulting work on sort cf a a 2 30-- Z C -- -- S S 2TV1. C 9 'Z2.SJLS . 2 That has continued right up through today A To today, ves, sir. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 102-347-3700 300-336-oo4e 410-oe4-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000062654 22 Q Do you have an hourly fee that you charge. Monsanto for your consulting work? A Yes, sir. Q And what is that fee, sir? A $200 an hour. Q Are you being compensated by Monsanto for you: time spent preparing for this deposition? MR. BRAY: I object to that. THE WITNESS: If by preparing, you mean mv meetings with Mr. Snivelv and Mr. 3rav? BY MR. MC CONNELL: Q Yes, sir. A I will be compensated for that. 0 At your normal hourly rate? A That's correct. 0 And are vou beinc comDensated bv Monsanto for A With the exception of travel time - MR. BRAY: Same objection. BY MR. MC CONNELL: 0 -I'm sorry, sir? MR. 3RAY: Subiect to mv objection, you may Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. \anonwiae Coverage :0:-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-664-23:0 WATER PCB-SD0000062655 answer. THE WITNESS: With the exception or travel time. I do not charge for travel time. 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: Q 3ut you're being compensated for the time you're spending here in the deposition today? A That's correct. Q And whatever additional days are needed to complete the deposition? MR. 3RAY: Same objection. THE WITNESS: That's correct. 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: Q Have you testified for Mcnsan: in ether cases Kellv? Do vou mean cv testiovmc -i ~ -3 oeccsition? jet's break it down. Let's talk abou: :epcsxt A Yes, I have On now nanv occasions -5, give :axe two or terse Have vou testified for Monsanto in court on Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062656 U) CUOt 34 24 other cases? A Weil, I've testified in court. I've been cailec as a witness by Monsanto, if that's what you mean testifying for them. Q Yes. A I was either testifying as a fact witness or an expert witness in various cases. Z And how many occasions have you testified for Monsanto in court, Dr. Keliv? A _n court? Q On how many occasions? A Five to 10, I guess. nw How many of those were as an extern witness, cuess n I testinea nve to _j, wouic. sav tour to aicnt were as an extern witness. And how many as a fact witness? n One or two. Q In this case, has Monsanto asked you to testin' as an expert witness? MR. 3RAY: Object to that. The time for desicnatinc extert witnesses has not arrived vet. - U\ Ut 4* l*J to Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062657 25 - THE 'WITNESS: I don't knew in what capacity I 2 will be testifying. 3 BY MR. MC DONNELL: 4, Q i expe rt ? Monsanto hasn't asked you to testify as an 5 MR. BRAY: Objection. Asked and answered. 7 THE WITNESS: No, they haven't really spelled ou: what my position in this trial is going to be. Z BY MR. MC DONNELL: 10 i 11 i Q Do you own stock in Monsanto , Dr. Kelly? A Yes t 5 3- r. 12 , Q Do vou recall that Monsanto had a stock option program for its top officers and key employees? A Yes, sir. 2 And were you one of the key employees who VO received stock options? A I did receive stock codons in 1972 and ' "'3 . obviously have not received any options since, because I retired in '"4. 2 While you were employee by Monsanto as medical director, vou did receive stock options? 22 A Yes, sir. ACZ-irEDERAL REPORTERS., INC. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 S00-336-6o46 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062658 40 Q 1970s? And was "hat :rue in the 19 50s as well as -in the A I don't think I received any in the '50s. In fact, I'm not sure whether they had stock option plans at that time. MR. MC CONNELL: Let me show you a document, sir, which we will mark as Kelly Exhibit 1. 'Kelly Exhibit 1 identified. 3Y MR. MC CCNNELL: Q You see, Dr. Kelly, this is a document which consists of the minutes of a meeting of Monsanto's board of directors on November 11, 1954? A Yes, sir. Q I'd like you to turn, sir, to the page -- you'll see there's some page cumbers in the upper right-hand corner on each page. I'd like to ask you to turn to page 119. Would you tell me when you have that. A Yes, sir. Q And in the first full paragraph cn that page, the minutes read "The Chairman stated that the stock cpcicr. committee appointed by this board at its April 14, 1951 meetina has recommended the arantinc of additional Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-0646 410-684-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000062659 o op-cions co purchase a total of 49,500 shares tf tnis company's unissued common stock to 37 other officers anc key employees of the company.1' Do you see that, sir? A Yes, sir. Q And does that refresh your recollection that there was a stock option program at Monsanto in the 1950s? A Yes, sir. Q And I'd like you to look down near the bottom of the list of names In this paragraph. Do you find your name there? A Yes, I do. Q Do you see that you had options that year for "53 shares? A Yes, sir. - 0 2 Does that refresh your recoiled ,icn cnat vou receive stock ooticns back in the 1950s? A Yes, sir, it does. Q And was that on an annual basts? ic vou receive other stock cations in other years? A Later on I did. I had forgotten ail about tnis. That was not a very bic number. Yes, There Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 300-338-6t>46 . 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062660 23 1 was a second considerably later. 2 thought that wa-s 10 2 years or so after that that I received a larger amount o: 3 : shares. i 4 1 Q So from time to time, starting at least in the I 5 ' 1950s, you did receive stock options -- o>o r - m 01 A Not frpm time to time. I can only recall two times that I ever received it. MR BRAY: I'm late at rettino this in. I obiect to the cuestion, the dis and mischaracterizing the witness' testimony, but he's already i' * i i answered. r-H cn rn MR. MC CONNELL: Yes, he has. BY MR. MC CONNELL: - r m >n t - c Q You still own Monsanto stock? A I beg your pardon? Q Do you still own Monsanto stock? A Yes, 2 do. How many snares, Dr. Ke__y/ 1 D? A Ch, 1500 or somethin CT . r\ Q Dr. Kelly, I'd like to go back to the time 1 - - you were serving as the plant pnvsioian at the Queenv 22 C ' 3 h r We've talked a little bit about the work that Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 102-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062661 29 did in chat job. I'd like for you to tell me whether there were any other job responsibilities that you had at that time in connection with your job as plant physician? A Well, I don't really believe that I mentioned what responsibilities I had as a plant physician. 3 Why don't we go back to that, then, and tell me what your job responsibilities were. A It was to carry out a preventive medical program by examining, bv monitoring the health of the employees to see if they had any incipient diseases which were not occupational, in scope, such as diabetes or high blood pressure. MR. MC CONNELL: Why don't we gc off the record for just a minute. Oiscussion off the record., ;Recess.: 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: Q Or. Eeilv, we were interruoted by the window washer and clanging against the window outside the room and I think in fairness to vou, I'd like to go back anc get vou to restart vour answer to this question. Is tr.at ail richt with vou? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-646 410-684-2350 WATER PCB-SD0000062662 30 A Certainly. , MR. MC CONNELL: Why don't: we have you read back tzhe question, if you would. (The reporter read the record as requested.) THE WITNESS: It was to carry out a preventive medical program for the employees, which consisted mainly of monitoring their health through periodic examinations, and that was to find out any incipient diseases which are common to ail mankind, such as diabetes, hypertension, et cetera, under the theory that if you caught these in their incipient stage, you would be able to forestall more serious illnesses down the road. Obviously, if there were any illnesses that could be produced by their work situation, you would endeavor to pick up anything abnormal if that had occurred. It also meant that I was suppcsec to visit their worxpiace to see if I was able to ascertain whether there was any undue exposure to the chemicals which they were manufacturing or using. It was also my responsibility to find out what was known or needed to be known about the toxic characteristics of our raw materials as well as our finished oroaucts. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 $00-336-eo46 410-ftd+*2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062663 IVJ 1 , BY MR. MC CONNELL: 2 t Q Was there any" thing- else that was p" a,, rt cf y" our 3 1 job responsibilities, Or. Kelly, during the tine frame j 4 : 1935 to 1942? i i 5 i A Well, later on, in the years closer to 1942, I 5 would answer inquiries from our various customers and/or 7 doctors as to what the effects of ourfinishedmaterial 3 might or might not have on their workers, on the 9 customers' workers. I think that's about the extent of 10 that. 11 Q Did that involve answering questions about the 12 toxicity of particular chemicals? A Yes, sir. Z Did you have any responsibility for pollution statement or waste disoosal in those davs? A No, sir. C When you went back to Monsanto in 1946 as the medical director, Dr. Kelly, what were your job responsibilities ? A Weil, there I had direct responsibility to see that we had adequate medical installations in all our various plants and laboratories, that we had a system rcr Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2350 WATER_PCB-SD0000062664 22 informing cur customers through inclusion in our various technical bulletins, our sales bulletins, our application bulletins concerning the safe handling and toxicity evaluation of cur products. We -- then, of course, it was almost a moving target. We then developed the industrial hygiene department that allowed us to be more sophisticated in analyzing the working environment of our factories. We also had a more forma, program for evaluating the toxicity of our products. Q What do you mean by that, sir? A Well, we later developed a program in which when any of our compounds reached a certain stage, for example, if they were advertised in a bulletin, if they were sent out to several different times, sample quantities, that we wcu.d rave a particular department that was handling this or manufactured this product, that they had to submit wnat we called a 201 or 202 file that had to give us the information about the use of the product, the physical character! sties of the product, so that we would decice whether th ere was any toxicity information available for tr.is product and also whether or not, in cur opinion, mere information or information would have to be obtained on Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coveraee 202-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062665 23 - : that part icuiar product. - Q Was it important to have toxicity information about the chemicals that Monsanto was using at its plants? `4t 1 , A I beg your pardon? | 5 Q Was it important to have toxicity information 5 about dhe chemicals that Monsanto was using at its plants? 7 A Yes, sir. -4 w And why was that, sir? 5 A Because you wanted to protect the worker. If 10 you didr' t know if the product were toxic c r not and the B l dscrss of toxicity, you'd do a pretty poor job of 12 i 13 14 protecting ahem. W And it was important to know abcu t the toxicity of one or educes that Monsanto was making at its plants? 1 3 .A Yes, sir. 1 5 U And wnv was that? - Ay We were selling it to the ousterne rs that we had ` 3 zo give - hem safe handling instructions as far as using Q "he produ ct was concerned. -*L uo --v Bid veu have a.nv resectsibilities for pollution abatement :r waste disposal when you wen: back to Monsant as the medical director in 1346? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coveraee 202-347-3700 S00-336-oo46 -,10-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062666 34 1 1 A Not ir. 1946 but in 195 -- "he early 1350s, we 2 were authorized by the executive committee to review ail 3 new plants, new processes and assure ourselves and report i4 j to the central executive committee that the adec"ruate ! 5 concern was given to the disposal of waste material. We 5 were not engineers, but we were -- our industrial hygiene 7 ' group were knowledgeable about waste disposal, and they 3 would be able to tell wnether or not the information given 9 in the flow sheets was sufficient to have our waste 10 disposal program keep up with the state of the art of 11 1 12 13 waste management at that parti cular time. Obviously, that varied from the :1950s to the 1 970s . Q Do you believe that Monsanto did keep up with 1 4 the state cf the art on waste disposal? -- A Yes , 1 do. 1 5 i* Do you believe that Monsanto was kncwiedgeab - about the ongoing scientific developments in waste 1 2 disposal technology during the time you were the medio 19 director for the company? -- -j Yes, 1 do . 21 U .And that was true from 19 4 6 through your 2 2 retiremen t in 1974? ` Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2350 WATER PCB-SD0000062667 35 A Well, I would say that we were more knowledge -- I was more knowledgeable from the 1950s to the 1974 -- early 1950s where the medical department was given -- 1952 or ' 53 we were given the responsibility for reviewing the waste disposal methods and reporting to the executive committee if we did not believe that they were taken care of in an adequate fashion. Q Were there other people who reporter to you in the medical department? And maybe we should start in 1946 when you started out as the medical director. A When I started cut, I had a secretary. Then the next thing, I engaged a part-time physician who was a member of the faculty of Washington University. Then we engaged an industrial hygienist in 1947, I believe -- 2 bet me stop you there and back up for a moment. When you started in the medical department as medical director in 1946, were there plant doctors at some of tne Monsanto plants across the country? A Oh, yes, I was just talking of tne corporate icai department. Yes , we had doctors at o ur various nts . They were usuail y part-time doc tors . We may have one full-time d octor in one of our p iants and I'm just Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-3-17-3700 300-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062668 ; 4 i. O 5 J <j\ in' trying to think -- we had mostly part-time physicians, but in the central medical department we hired first a part-time associate physician. Q And who was that, sir? A George Saunders, who is dead. We hired an industrial hygienist, Elmer Wheeler, in '47, who is also dead, and that was followed by Jack Garrett, and I think wj tu he came in '52 or '53. 3y the time I retired, we had four industrial hygienists, four or five. I'm not sure. 10 ' Eventually, we hired several toxicologists and eventually 11 also we hired another full-time physician as my 12 associate. 12 ' (Pause. ) 14 3Y MR. MC DONNELL: 15 Q When you became the medical director in 1946, 15 Dr. Kelly, who did you report to in Monsanto? 1" A Gee, I don't know if it was vice president for 13 administration or vice president for -- once I reported 13 directly to the executive committee. It varied. I think 2 0 eventually, I record to the vice president for 11 encineerinc. I reoorted to the vice oreside.nt for administration. I think I would ao throuch a snuffle Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 102-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062669 1 i about ever'/ seven years at Monsanto and shuffle around the I `* j 2 : chart, so ; don't really know who was the first one I 3 reported to. 4 j Q At tines, did you report directly to the 5 ; president of the company? 5 ; A Weil, the executive committee was -- as far as j 7 I reporting to the president, we were very close to him. We 3 were on a fi rst-name basis and I had ample opportunity to q talk to him about anything that came up; whether I 10 retorted to him or not, I could walk right in and talk to 11 1 i 12 him and say here's the problem I've got. ~ a Was that true throughout the time you were the 13 necical director at the company-from 1946 to 1974? 14 A Weil, not right away in '46, but as it got -- we 13 were relatively small at that time and it was true, yes. All the way through to the time that you retiree '<.o f crj o> A That's correct. a You mentioned that Monsanto grew. Did Monsanto y or build additional plants as you went along? A Did they? 22 Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-34/-3/00 300-336-6646 410-684-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062670 38 A Oh, sure. They built them or acquired them. I think we had 55 when I left. Q That was in 1974? A That's correct. Q Was that 5 5 plants in the United States ? A Oh, pr.obabiy 10 of those were ex-U.S.A. We had two in Mexico, three in Canada, two in England, one in Luxembourg, one in Germany. I guess there were 10 ex-U.S.A. ones. . Q Would it be fair to say, then, that you had about 45 plants around the United States? A That's correct. Q sir? And how many states were those in, do you know, A How many states? Q How many different states? A 15 . Vl'-N Did you continue to visit the plant sites, Dr. Kelly? A Yes. Not as much after we had industrial hygienists. They went there somewhat oftener and we had the one full-time associate, one part-time associate, and Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6o46 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062671 a \ CT - i (N ro - f in 'O I -J 1 j they took over some of the plant visits, but I still got i I 2 1 around to certainly ail the larger plants cnee a year, and 3 in some cases more than once a year. And in some cases iI ' . 4 1 once every two vears. And the small bottiina slants where 5 1 we blew plastic bottles, we had 15 people that might go there every two years cr so. Q Did you ever visit the Texas City plant? A Yes, 1 did. Q On how manyoccasions? A Well, of course, we had that explosion on the ship next to the plant, so at that time I was there about, oh, 10 times at that particular episode. Q That was in 1947? A '46 or '47 -- '47, 1 guess. I'd say I was there an averaae of twice ever,' -- three times every two years or so cn the average, about every -- not twice a year all the time but twice one year, once the next. Q And that continued throughout the time you were the medical director up through your retirement? A That's correct. Z When you were there, you talked with the plant _ 4 chemists and enaineers? cn Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062672 54222.: 5b 40 1 | A Well, I talked with theplant manager,the plant 2 manufacturing superintendent, the physician, the safety 2 manager, the nurse at the dispensary. 4 Q Then you communicated in writing with these 5 people at other times? 5 A Yes, sir. ~ Q So you have someknowledge of thechemicals that s were used at the Texas City plant? 5 A Oh, yes, sir. * n Q And would that be true also with rasp ect to - - Monsanto 's other plants? ^ A Yes , sir. 22 Q And you have some knowledge cf the pr wCiiu _..a w 24 Monsanto made at the various plants? 22 Yes , sir. 2 2 * And also the waste streams that were crcduced at - tncse pi ants ? 2 = A Wei 1, that might vary. I do knew in seme plants 22 where we had treatment plants, I would know wha t the waste ~ 2 streams were going into the treatment plants. But mostly, one knowledge about the waste disposal, both air and water and solids, that knowledge rested with Jack Garrett and Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. i Nationwide Coverage j 202-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062673 41 Elmer wheeler. Wheeler was knowledgeable about the air emissions, whereas Garrett was knowledgeable about the water and the solid waste disposal. Q Both Mr. Wheeler and Mr. Garrett reported to you in the medical department? A Yes, they did. Q Let's talk a little bit about Mr. Wheeler's responsibilities. Lid he join the medical department in 1947? Am I right about that? . A Yes, sir. Q Do you recall what his job title was at that time? A Yes. It was an industrial hygienist. He was the sola one we had. Eventually, he became director or industrial hygiene, but we had more than one industrial hygienist. He also was -- eventually he was called assistant. He did not have a medical degree, so he was called the assistant directcr of the detiartment, but he was not called assistant medical directcr because he didn't have an MD degree. 3ut he administered, supervisee the toxicclegists and the other industrial hygienists that we r.irsc. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coveraee 202-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062674 4 -* *4 X W . 'J b 42 1 X. Q Mr. Wheeler was responsible, you said, for air 2 pollution matters? 3 A Well, I know that's a little all-encompassing I 4 term, "air pollution matters." He was responsible for the I 5 checking of the new plants and the major remodeling. He 6 was responsible for seeing that the air pollution / | streams -- that the streams were taken care of, either by flaring or by scrubbing, but he was not responsible for 9 the day-tc-aav operation of a plant to see whether there 10 ' J 11 i 12 , 13 was any undue emissions. Q From the standpoint of the medical department, he was the air pollution man? Would that be fair? A Yes, sir. *1 - ** 2 What were his other job resDcnsibil-ties? A Weil, ne suDervised, from an administrative I'D point of view, our toxicological work. He also supervised the industrial hygienists' schedules and their work. He answered cuite a bit of correspondence about the safe 1 9 handling data -- safe handling methods to be used as far as 20 the plant environment was concerned in cur customers' slants, as well as our own olants, obvicusiv. X. X. Our customers' olants were onlv cn request. We Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. | Nationwide Coverage 102-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062675 43 didn't routinely go out to the customers' plants. They would let us in. It wasn't our responsibility. Sut on requests -- there were requests that would come in for toxicological information of a medical nature; I would answer it. If it were of an engineering nature or an industrial hygiene nature, Wheeler would answer. But we both were familiar with each other's correspondence. Q Could you tell me the difference, Dr. Kelly, between things you're describing of a medical nature and things that were of an industrial hygiene nature? A Yes. Suppose a doctor or customer would write in and say we're using one of your insecticides, how should we handle it as far as protective garments for cur workers? How should we monitor it as far as cur manufacturing or blending operation would be concerned? That would be Wheeler's. If somebody would write in and say we've got two people who said they got heart attacks and they believe that it's due to working with your parathion, that would come to me because that would be purely medical rather than engineeringwise. Q So Hr. Wheeler reported to you, but his role in the medical department was somewhat different than yours. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. .Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062676 44 Is that fair? ' A Yes, sir. He was an expert in his field. I was an expert in my field. Q Would you say that Mr. Wheeler was highly competent in his field? A Oh, yes. He had been an industrial hygienist for the Army laboratory. He was in charge cf the state bureau cf industrial hygiene for one of the New England states. I don't know if it was New Hampshire or Vermont. It was not Massachusetts, but it was one of the other ones. So he was very well thought of. He was eventually president of the Industrial Hygiene Association of America, so he was quite a well-known authority in industrial hygiene. Q And did you reiv on Mr. Wheeler for industrial hygiene matters? A Yes, sir. Q Would you describe yourself as an expert on industrial hygiene matters? A I got more familiarity with it than most physicians, but I'm not an expert on industrial hygiene. C And do vou consider vourseif an exoert on air Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062677 :4222 . :b i>j K) *-- o u> co ' i u \ 45 pollution? - A No, I'm not an expert on air pollution. 2 Let's talk about Mr. Garrett. You said he joined the medical department in 1952 or 1953? A Yes, sir. Q Where was he before that, sir? A Texas City. 2 He was a Monsanto employee at Texas City? A That's correct. 2 what's the last time you talked with Garrett? A Oh, two weeks ago. 2 Oid you talk about his deposition in this case? A No. I talked to him about a different case. 2 Another Monsanto case? A That's correct. 2 Have you ever discussed chi; A I mav have. I really don't recollect much discussion with him about it. 2 By the way, is Mr. Wheeler still alive? A No, he's dead. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-oo46 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062678 42:2.0 46 1 Q When Mr. Garrett: came to work in the medical 2 department in St. Louis, did he report directly to you? 3 A No, to Wheeler. 4 Q So Garrett reported to Wheeler and Wheeler 5 reported to you? 6 A That's correct. 7 ' Q How much direct contact did you personally have 3 with Mr. Garrett? 9 A Oh, cosh, I saw him every day. I ate lunch, with 10 him ever-/ day. We were in an office around an open area 11 about the size cf this table, and Wheeler's office opened 12 13 14 c into it and mine opened into it and Garrett's opened into it, and Z saw him -- we had lots and lots of contact. Q What were Mr. Garrett's job responsibilities in ccnneccc.cn with water coiluricn and solid waste disDOsa_? I dicin'" hear the last chrase, "job - ; resconsrri-ties ' -- 1 3 Q Let me repr.rase it for you. What were G Mr. Garrett's job responsibilities in connection with 20 water pollution and solid waste disposal? A They varied. He was of assistance to the plants 22 in deaiinc with the various recuiacorv state and federal Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 . 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062679 47 bodies. He was responsible for seeing and reporting to the executive committee that the matter of water and solid waste disposal was taken care of adequately and all new manufacturing facilities and major changes. He was not responsible for the day-to-day operation of the plants of their water pollution abatement programs. That was a plant function of the plant engineering and plant manufacturing croups. Q There would be people at each of the different plant locations responsible for that? A Yes, sir. Q But in terms of the medical department, Mr. Garrett was the water pollution and solid waste disposal man? A He was the point man for that, yes. ^ And he retorted directly to Monsanto's executive committee? A He did? Q Yes, sir. A Garrett? Mo. I mean -- well, he reported through Wheeler and through me. I'm sure Garrett reported -- not reported, but- was tailed in by members or Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. \abonwide Coverage 202-347.3700 300-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062680 48 the executive committee cn an ad hoc situation. He had pretty close access to the executive group of Monsanto. Q Who was on the executive committee that you referred to? A The president, chairman of the boarc, the general counsel and the vice president for manufacturing and the vice president for research and the vice president, I guess, for marketing. Q Anybody else you can think of? A There may have been some -- there were about five or six ethers. They had two committees, one corporate development committee and one executive committee, and they were really -- the personnel were the same in both and I don't really knew what the difference was in their duties, but that's about the -- it was the top brass of tne company, though. 2 Did you serve on that committee, sir? A Mo, I didn't, unfortunately. Q What job responsibilities did Mr. Darrett have other than those that you've mentioned? A Weil, I did mention that he was called upon by the various olants for interpretation of various Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-O646 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062681 49 government edicts and he was also called upon sometimes to appear with them before state or federal bodies. I don't know what some other responsibilities may come to my mind. I'm not sure what other -- Q Was he responsible for any industrial hygiene matters like those that Mr. Wheeler handled? A Yes, but then after a while, we got other industrial hygienists, and he spent more of his time with waste abatement programs. Q Was Mr. Garrett highly competent at his job? A Very much so. Q Did you rely on him in the water pollution and waste disDosai areas? A Yes, I did. Z You trusted his judgment onthose matters? A Yes, sir. Z Da you consider yourself tohave any expertise in the area of pollution abatement or waste disposal? A Weil, I have some but nothing compared to Garrett, nothing compared to a man who is a geologist or hydrologist. I'd say as far as a physician is concerr.ec, I'm fairly knowledgeable in it but nothing approaching one Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062682 50 expert, status . ' Q Would it de fair to say throughout the time you were working at Monsanto, Mr. Garrett was the one who was responsible for water pollution abatement and waste disposal matters in the medical department? A Well, wait. You've said responsible for water pollution abatement in the medical department. What he was rssoonsible for was to assure the corporate management throuch the medical deoartmer.t that the plants were giving adequate and sufficient attention to seeing that their waste disposal matters were state of the art, that they were up to -- that he was not -- now, that was in new installations. He was not responsible for checking the Mississiooi P.iver to find tut if the different plants alone me Mississiooi P.iver were putting anytning in there mat they shouldn't have. That wasn't'his responsibility. That's the plant management's responsibility. But he would certainly talk with these people and find out what they were doing. So from the medical deoartmer.t, he was cur conduit of information that court convince us that the slants were uo to scratch. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 S00-336-O&46 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062683 i i Q From the standpoint c the medical department, he was the man on water pollution and waste disposal? A That's correct. -n tw i Q ? i ? And that was true up until your retirement in A That's correct. Q Dr. Kelly, we've been going for a while. Why don't we take a real short break. A Okay. Fine. { Recess . i BY MR. MC CONNELL: t I Q Dr. Kelly, I think you told me earlier it was i part of your responsibility as the medical director to answer cuestoons about the roxicitv of chemicals used at the Monsanto slants in Monsanto orocucts ? Yes, sir. Did vou keen uo with the medic; ' O t- * accuw zr.e -oxicirv :: tncse cnemicais/ Hawing my retirement? 1 No, sir. I'm talking about the time when you were actively working as the medical director for the comoanv. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062684 A Yes, sir. ' Q And you followed the scientific studies that were bemc done on the toxi city of those chemicals? ri Yes, sir. Q And did Monsanto sometimes conduct its own toxicoi egy tests? A Yes, sir. X, I believe you've told me that there were some texicci ogists, at least in the later years, on Monsanto's staff in the medical department? A Yes, sir. We ended up with four, I think. Q 3y the time you retired? A Yes, sir. ~ Did you also have toxicology tests conducted 'ey outside laboratories? . A Yes, sir. Z And did you get information about the toxicity of chemicals from other chemical companies? A Other chemical -- * Other chemical companies. A Oh, yes, there was a cretty free exchange. In otter wc rd s , L z we had a orocuct that was a me-too Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062685 53 product, that means that du Pont would manufacture it before, I would call up the medical area in du Pont and say what do you know about this? Do you have any trouble with it? Do you have any published data on it? And he would tell me the same thing we would do for him, so we'd get that information.- And then there were the various bodies like the Manufacturing Chemists Association that had medical committees that disseminated information. Q Can you tell me some cf the maicr chemical companies that you dealt with exchanging information about toxicity? A Dow,du Pont, Carbide. There may be one or two others. Those are the ones that ring a bell. Q These are the major ones that you dealt with? A Weil, I was or. their medical commrttee of the Manufacturing ChemistsAssociation for quite a number cf years. I waschairman for about three or four years and, so the personnel of that committee would vary -- would change from over the years, so I was pretty close to ail the medical directors of that grcuo. 5 What is the Manufacturing Chemists Association, Q- -- Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. .02-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 80Q-336-oo46 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062686 54 A It's a different name now, but it was a croup cf all the major and submajcr chemical companies. There are about 50 members, I believe, and they have an office in Washington, and they put out safety bulletins and they put out -- they have ail sorts of legal committees. They've got traffic committees. They've got labeling committees. They've got all sorts of committees and medical committees. 3 During wnat years were you on the medical committee for Manufacturing Chemists Association? A '50s and '60s, I guess. Q Was that organization referred to as the MCA in those days? Association? A Yes. 3 Would it be fair to say, Dr. Kelly, that during the '50s and '50s, you kept up with the state cf the art cn toxicity? A Also the.'"Os, yes, sir. 3 I didn't mean to exclude the '"Os. Thrcugr.cut Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 002-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062687 542 jb i that time period. A Yes, sir. 3 Q Did Mr. Garrett keep op with the scientific 4 literature during the '50s and '60s on water pollution and Q waste disposal? 5 A Oh, yes, he was a voracious reader. He came up with them. He was very active in any number of regional 2 water collution activities like the Ohio P.iver, 3RSANCC. 9 I don't know what the initials spelled but it was the Ohio *- nu River Sanitary Water Commission or something like that. :i Q Did you personally keep up with the scientific 12 literature during those years on water pollution and waste ' "3 disposal, or did you leave that to Mr. Garrett? A I left it to Garrett. 2 Was Mr. Garrett active in the Manufacturing Chemists Association in their activities? A Yes, on their water pollution committee. He was 13 a good joiner of it. He was on most of the committees. a 5 So curing those years, would it be fair to say that Mr. Garrett was familiar with the state of the art on water pollution and waste disposal? A No ouestion about it. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage :02-347-3700 300-336-o646 410-684-2350 WATER_PCB-SD0000062688 f^ :a Q Did Mr. Garrett write published scientific articles from time to time? A Yes, he did. Q And he presented papers at scientific meetings ? A Yes, he did. Q Was there a policy at Monsanto that required him to get approval from you or from Mr. Wheeler before oubiishir.c an article? No . :n't know if there was a pc-icy, out 10 I 11 i1 ! 12 | never asked me. I mean, I never even knew he was going write one. So I don't know if there's any other policy any other departments but if he was going to write 13 something, he -wrote it. 14 Q Do you know whether Mr.Wheeler would have ' - IT 0 V13 WS a -l"! CSS CSI CT3 CUCJ.i_C3Zi.3ri? 15 A I don't know. 17 MR. MC DONNELL: Dr. Kelly, let me snow you a 13 document which we will mark as Kelly Exhibit 1. 19 (Kelly Exhibit 2 identified. . 20 BY MR. MC DONNELL: 21 D Do vou have that in front ofyou now. Dr. Kel. 22 A Yes, I do. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nanonwiae Coverage 202-347-3700 300-336-t>646 410-664-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062689 542:2.: -b ; -7 m i - rn o* O rH Q Is this an organizational chart fcr Monsanto's medical department from April 1952? A Yes, it is . 2 .And you see you're in the very/ top box listed as the director? A Yes, sir. . Q And there's anassistant director in the box right below your box. Who is' that, sir? A Maurice Johnson. He iaft us in 1971, I believe, to go with 5.F. Goodrich. He's retired from 3.F. Goodrich now and lives in Ohio, and he is living. Q Was he a medical doctor, sir? A Yes, he was. 2 What were the nature of his responsibilities a: chat ccmi m time? A Weil, he came to us from Chemstra.oc, which was our fiber division, and he really -- he was our medical director and he continued that supervision over these plants. There were about five or six plants that they had, two in Europe and five in the Ynited States, and then he -- most of mv activities, 1 mean. When 1 was out or town, he was the acti.oc director. He did a lot of work rn -! in 'o Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coveraee 102-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062690 58 similar to me. Q Did he nave any responsibility for water OOilUwl.on or waste disposal matters? A I don't know if it was that defined. I would sav, by and large, no 3 His job was more similar to your job? A That's correct. 3 And I want to make sure I understood you correct:iy. The name you gave for the seven plants that he was diersetiy responsible for was Chemstrar.d? A Chemstrand. Chemstrand was a company that was formed by Monsanto and American Viscose and eventually we bought out American Viscose. And he was their medical dirsc*c:r and he came with us, I think, in 1356, I believe, 3 IT 2.2T Clme the late 50s. 2 Did the Chemstrand plants have anything to do :e operations at Monsanto's Texas City piant? a I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. 3 Did the Chemstrand plants have anything to do with t::e operations at Monsanto's Texas City piant? Weil, we used their acrylonitrile. The acrylonitrile was made at the Texas City Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 102-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062691 39 plant? A That's correct. ' Q And it was shipped to the Chemstrand plants? A Spun it to acriian, a-c-r-i-l-a-r.. Q Were there anyother products made by Chemstrand? . A Nylon. Z Nylon didn't have anything to do with the Texas City plant? A NO . . Q Were there any other Chemstrand products you recall? A I don't remember. I don't think so. Z Let's go back to the chart, Dr. Kelly. Do you see or. the chart that Elmer Wheeler is listed as the manacer of environmental health; is that right? A Yes, sir. Z And below him, Mr.Tarrettis listed as the manager of industrial hygiene and pollution abatement; _s that correct, sir? A Yes, sir. Z And were there other peopleat this point _r. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 300-336-6o46 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062692 50 tine, 196 2, who reported to Mr. Garrett? A I think we had a Dr. Dari 3oni, 3-o-h-i. He was a doctor of science. He was not an MD. I don't know when he tame on board, but it was around that time. These charts -- as I said, there was an upheaval every seven years or so, and the titles would vary. First of all, they would say we're not going to have anybody -- a director that -- there'd be ail managers and seven years later they'd say well, we're going to have some directors retortinc to directors. So Wheeler was also -- one of one charts would break it down to -- they ail reported in the same fashion here but they had different titles. Wheeler was an assistant director of the department and Johnson was tailed assistant medical director. Q And when you say one titles changed, it was true that Mr. Wheeler remained in the mecioai department. He mime have had a different title, but his yob function remained essentially the same? A Yes , his reporting pos i tier, was the same, also. Q And the same would be t . Darrett? A Yes , sir. In the box next to Mr. Garrett, *- ? *r* q ' c ;a n n ** ^ -- '"* Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc, Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 300-336-646 410-684-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062693 51 box with the name W.H. Hunt, and he's listed as ' toxiccicgist. When did he join the company? A I beg your pardon? Q When did he join the company? A I think around 1960. He's dead. He was responsible for correlating cur outside toxicological work with various laboratories we used. 2 Were there ether toxicology people who reported ( '-in*" L 9 S Z *? A I don't think so. Eventually, we had, I think, four toxicologists, but I don't know when they came on.. The last one came on in about '71, and the ether two were in there someplace, 1960, 1970. 1 And ~ust to round cut the chart, if you look at one left, there's also a block for cer.erai ccfices disoensarv? A Yes , 5 2,r, * .And -- o r- o ' c pt '^Q7C^a =- there? A Yes , sir. And there's another block for p lant medical sper.sar i. 3 5 . There s.re to tames - '^ora 2, Well , "hat. crcbablv sr.cul ~ he dotted line Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202->47-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062694 52 because they were nor. -- we had a full-tame docror at the Queenv Plant. We had three full-tine doctors at our Chemstrand plant but they were not medical department personnel. So it really should be a dotted line. 3 So leaving aside the plant medical dispensaries for the moment, Dr. Kelly, how many doctors and other professional personnel did you have in the medical department at the corporate level in St. Louis in 1962? A I don't remember. I mean, obviously we had these people and whether we had some of cur -- some more industrial hygienists in 1962, I'm not sure. When Dr. Dari 3ohl came in, I know we didn't get a toxicologist, a second one, until later in the '60s. We had one, two, three, four -- we had about eight crcisssicr.sl cscc*1 0 -iisirs . 3 .And do you recall, at the time you retired in 13 ~ 4 , new many professional people were working in Monsanto's medical department at the corporate level in St. Louis? A One, two, three -- about 12 or 12, I think. 3 If you added in the people in the plant medicas discer.saries and counted those as well, what would the Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nanonwiae Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062695 53 number be? A Gee, I'd have to -- right off the top of my head, I couldn't give you these figures because we had a rtn uli-time doctor -- there's cur friend. MR. MC CONNELL: Let the record reflect that the window washer has returned. Would you like to break for just a moment, Or. Kelly? THE WITNESS: Fine. (Discussion off the record. . 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: Q Dr. Kelly, once again, the window washer, I think, has interrupted our train of thought and I'll ask the reporter to go back and read the last question and rive vou a fair chance to answer it. 'The reoerter read the record as recuested.) THE WITNESS: At the corporate level, probably 12 to 14, I think. We had a librarian in there, and I . guess 12 to 14. BY MR. MC CONNELL: Q That's at the corporate level, net counting the plant dispensaries? A That's correct. ' Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 300-336-6o46 410-634-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062696 64 Q Do you have any idea how many doctors and-other professional people would have been involved in the piano dispensaries ? A I'd have to add them up. For example, at Pensacola, we had three full-time doctors. At Decatur we had one. At Anniston we had one. At Columbia, Tennessee we had two part-time doctors. At Texas City, we used a clinic and at Chocolate 3avcu we had two part-time doctors. And at Springfield, we had a full-time cocccr. At Merrimac we had a part-time doctor. At Krummrioh we had two part-time doctors. There are probably some I've forgotten. Q You had a substantial number of doctors on the A Yes, no question. Z We talked about Mr. Hunt, the toxioo_ogust. What were his credentials, sir? Was he an MD? A He was a PhD. Z Do you knew in what field? A I beg your pardon? Z In what field? A Pharmacoiccv. He was a toxicologist at Jor.nson Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202*347-3700 300-336-oo46 410-684-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000062697 Si Johnson, the pharmaceutical company, when he came with us . 3 The doctors at the Texas City plant, sir, could you tell me what arrangements there were at Texas City. A It was a Seeler-Manske, 3-e-e-i-e-r-M-a-n-s-k-e, clinic. Dr. Manske was our main individual who visited the plant. He was one of the founders of the clinic. Q Were there other doctors who also helped Dr. Manske there? A Yes. 3eeler, he was mainly the surgeon and they had three or four other physicians who were -- they might have come over to our place in an emergency or we would send cur oeooie over to the clinic. Pause. .'Whereupon, at 12:00 o.m. , the deposition was recessec, to de reconvened at 1:00 o.m. this same day. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. \ationwiae Coverage 202-347-3/00 300-336-6o46 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062698 AFTERNOON SESSION ( 1: 0'S p .m. Whereupon, R. EMMET KELLY 4 resumed the stand and, having been previously duly sworn, 5 was examined and testified further as follows: 5 EXAMINATION Continued; BY MR. MC CONNELL: O') 0 I see you're setting your watch, Or. Kelly. We'll rive vou a minute. 10 A Consider it set. Q I'd like to talk with you this afternoon, 12 Dr. Kelly, about some of the chemicals that were used at n Monsanto's Texas Citv olant. What is hvdrocen cvanide, me mciecu_e or r.vcrccer. ana a cvanide x.sct.9, which is careen anc nitrogen. HCN 0 The chemical svmbci for that is HCN? And is that a chemica. that was used at the ?exas Citv olant, sir? :es, sir. What was it used for? Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. Nationwide Coveraee 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062699 57 A 1 don't remember now. I say I do not remember now. 2 think it was used in the manufacture of acrylonitrile. I don't remember the exact use of it or the flow sheet of t.ne acrylonitrile plants. Q 3ut it was used in the acrylonitrile process? A In the what? Q It was used in the acrylonitrile manufacturing process ? A That's correct. Yes. 19 Q Would it he fair to say that hydrogen cyanide us i an extremely toxic chemical? 12 A Yes, no question. Used for death chambers. Q It's used for executions? A Yes. 2 Kills within minutes? A Yes. 2 Was there r.vdrccen cvar.ide contamination m some of the waste materials from the acrylonitrile process at w.T*S T 3 X S 7 C ' d'1- ? A Weil, I can't answer that, whether that was the hydrogen cyanide was combined with other chemicals or _ z not. I -use cannot answer that but I'm sure there was Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. N'aaonwide Coverage 102-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062700 53 some hydrogen cyanide, either in purs form or combined form, in some of the waste streams, yes, sir. Q Was the toxicity of hydrogen cyanide known in the 1940s? A Yes, sir. Q 1930s?- . A Yes, sir. 2 Known to you at those times? A I beg your pardon? Q Was it known to you at those times? A Yes, sir. Q And known to Monsanto? A Yes, sir, it was known. 3 What is cyanogen chloride, Yr. Kelly? let me -cell that fcr you, c-v-a-n-o-g-e-n, c-h-l-o-r-i-d-e, two words . A It has a cvanide molecule witn a cr.icrme atom: with one cr two chlcrir.es , I don't remember. 3 And it's a chemical that's related to hydrogen cyanide ? A Yes, it was one cf the -- hydrogen cyanide was one of the buildina blocks cf cvanoaen chloride. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 SOO-336-o646 410-634-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062701 Ui 9 - . Q That's a chemi cal that was used at the Texas City plant? < A To the best of my recollection, yes . I don't -T recall too mucr. about it at the cresent data. i n Do you remember there was a cyanogen chloride gas from one of the acryionitri le processes at the olant? A I don't remember. Q How toxic is cyanogen chloride, Cr. Kelly? A Not nearly as toxic as hydrogen cyanide, but I an't give you the relative toxicity of it. Q Do you know whether cyanogen chloride was used n manufacturing military war gases? A I'm. not sure. I think I recall something about t, but the war cas -- m.v exoerier.ee with war gases was zZ vsairs see , Yes, sir. That would have been C m O IT _ C. n S, IT A Yes, sir. MR. MC CONNELL: Let me shew you a document, Yellv, tnat we will mark as Kellv Exhibit 3. (Kelly Ex er.tif iad . Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 102-347-3^00 300-336-oo46 410-684-2o50 WATER_PCB-SD0000062702 :o 3Y MR. MC CCNNELL: - Q Dr. Kelly, do you recognize this as a memo that you received from John Fox about April II, 195"? A Well, I certainly received it from John Fox. Q And it's dated April 11, 1957? i a\ A That's correct. Q It's on a Monsanto Chemical Company letterhead? cd Ui cn A Yes, it is. * Who was John Fox? A He was sort of research/safety/industrial hygiene, sort of an unfrocked industrial hygienist at 12 Texas City. He was an employee of Texas City. I think he was part research, part safety, part industrial hygiene. J If I could direct your attention to the first paragrach of the memo, Dr. Kelly, Mr. Fox says 'As you knew, we have a he ci.ot oiar.t wnere we are max an e. ' Do vou see that, sir? - 3 A Yes, sir. Q .And further down, he points out that "we are rettinc ready to start coilectinc the cyanogen chloride : f f -eras for recycle to the unit." Do vou see that, sir' A Yes, sir. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 102-347-3700 SQQ-336-oo46 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062703 Q And does that refresh your memory chat there was a cyanogen chloride off-gas from the process? A No, sir, it doesn't. Q And looking -- you just don't remember one way or the other? A I don't remember. It was a pilot plant operation. I don't know if it ever went to full scale manufacturing or not. I don't know. I don't remember. Q If we wanted to know about that, we might be able to ask Mr. ?ox? A I beg your pardon? Q If we wanted to know about that, we might be able to ask Mr. Fox? A Sure. He c ugnt to remember it better than I. V And Mr. Fox goes on to say that he'd like to ~ ' & r* all available information on cvar.ocer. chloride; -- 5 that correct, sir? A Yes, sir, that's what he asks for. Q He goss cn oo in oris ssccr.d 02.G--Girsori docuo some source materials that he's been locking at and the first one he refers to is a book called 'Handbook ot Cancerous Materials" bv Sax. Do vou see that, Sr. Kelly? Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 102-347-3700 S00-336-oo46 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062704 - A Yes, I do . _ Q Is chat a reference chat .Monsanto used in the 950s at the time we're talking about? A It may be. Some individuals at Monsanto used t, but I do not believe that Sax was accepted as a op-dra wer expert on toxi city, His handbook, which went hrougn several editions, was more popular wit h the onscientifio community than it was with the scientific cmmur.i ty. Q It looks like Mr. Fox was using the Sax eference here, doesn't it? A Yes, it does. Q Let's take a look at the next one, a book called Industrial Hvgiene and Toxicology" by Patty. Are you a Tin ^ r \\ 1. ~ .A - h. 2. Z. SL ? A Yes. Patty was a well-known industrial verier.!st at one cf the states. I don't know if it was he Midwestern cr New England states. T Would vou recard that as an authoritative ource _t a__ oeoer.es t, and I'd have to - fnn ' " ncw r.9 sntirs ci0*s -- -- s tier't sav I acceoted it as a Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwiae Coveraze -02-34,-3,00 300-336-oo46 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062705 r<n ' m o t-1 c s reference in rote. -t may have errors wnen it's tearing with some of the compounds, cut I don't recall. Q Was it a work that you used cn occasion in your work as the medical director for Monsanto? A Oh, we had it, I think. I didn't use it too much. I think Wheeler used it more than anybody else in the department. 3 Wheeler worked for you in the neaica_ department? . A Yes, that's correct. Q Do you know whether Wheeler used the 'Handbook cf Dangerous Materials" by Sax? A I know he didn't give it a great deal of reszecz. Q ^^gro ' c e. n c c fi s r reference f. er e c--.l*.0ci 1 Tfi0 Chemistry cf Organic Cyanogen Compounds'1 by -- you might have to help me with this, Mugerditchian? A I can't help you with it. I never heard of it before. On the document this is spelled M-i-o-r-d-i-c-h-i-a-n. Q "a* >-ca / vou' ve never hserd. cf c.nis csrticc.dr ref0rence rv) Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-O646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062706 V 4 1 : A No, I have no recollection cf in. i t , 2 ; Q Skipping hewn, it looks like Mr. ?ox says in his i* 2 ' memo "Since this material was used in the manufacture of j 4 | military war cases, are there any covemment booklets l '' ' 5 ; available from the Army Chemical Corps?" Does that ring a ( S ] beil with you that during the war the military had ii 7 , experimented with the use of cyanogen chloride as a 3 military war gas? ? ! 10 ) 11 ' i 12 ; ! 13 A I rememcer something vaguely about it out I don't remember any of the details. It was not a very Drominenc war cas. Of course, we didn't use any war gases :in World War II and whether thev manufactured it -- I know ' they didn't manufacture it at Pine Bluff. They may have 14 manufactured it at Edgewocd. Sdgewocd had sort of a research rrcur as well as a manufacturinc orcuc, but 1 don't recall anvthinc from mv vear at Edcewocd about ~vanoaer.. ~ do v"scccnize the name but I don't recccnizs any more about it than that. Q Would you agree that it's a toxic material? A Frankly, I'm not in the ccsiticn to evaluate o You *ust don know one way -ether? Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062707 42; 1 cn It) UJt JO A One way or the other. When you say toxic,' what are your parameters for toxicity? Q Do you remember -- A It shouldn't be a household compound, I'll say that. You wouldn't want it in your kitchen, I don't think. Q Or your drinking water? well , I den't know -- it deoends cn one -eve You wouldn't put it- in vour coif Are we talking about a drop or f ive tablespoonsful? I don't think it's intended for coffee It's certainly not a food chemical. Q Do you remember whether there was a concern a: the time about the exposure of the Monsanto workers to cvsnccsn cLczrL.i0 ? A Mo, sir, I don't remember any such concern. 1 You cor.'t remember one way or the other? A I don't rememoer hearing any. 1 But you did receive this memo from Mr. Fox? A I can't hear you. 1 You aidreceive this memo from Mr. Fox? A Ch,certainly. It was it wasa concern on Jc. I U> t i l .t- UJ K ) uj Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062708 0 Fox' s part.. ^ -HR. MC CONNELL: Could you read back to me. (The reporter read the record as requested.) 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: Q If you look at the next paragraph of Mr. Fox's memo, he says "Our possible sources of major exposure will be to the toluene solvent, which will contain up to a maximum cf 10 percent dissolved cyanogen chloride, and to the gas itself." Coes that refresr. your memory that there was going to be a worker exposure to cyanogen chloride in the toluene solvent? A No, because again, this is a pilot plant operation, and I don't know how large it was, how long it ran or whether it was discontinued after rncntns or whether it was an ongoing installation. I just cor.'t knew. Q So you really don't rememcer this issue about cyanogen chloride cne vay or the ether? A 1 don't much about it at all. At we s i' * Q Q " edav, vou can't remember what you knew in 1957 about the -- cxic' -- v cf cvanccen orients? A That's c o r *--e c t. Before we leave this memo, do you see the Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Xaaonwirie Coveraee 202-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062709 u* in reference to "toluene solvent:" char we've just: been calking about:, sir? A Yes, sir. Q Was toluene a chemical char was used at the Texas City plant? A When it was.used there, whether it was separated frcm benzene, which came from the stream from the oil refineries, I don't know. They certainly had it in the riant. whether it was used in the manufacturing, I don't :o recall. Q 3ut it was certainly present at the Texas City plant? ' *3 A It was what? 2 lb was certainlv oresent at the Texas licy A Yes. 1 Were there occasions, Dr. Kelly, where Monsanto workers were injured in cyanide spills? A Were there occasions when Monsanto womens were wnat / Wszrs ' r. i.,-`sg ln cv2.n,<iCfc0 scz- ---- s - . -.n cvamae -- Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. 202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062710 Ov U l OO - I 'U t-J O 8 Q Spills. , A Exposure? Q Spills. Let me start over and I'll see if : can speak up a little bit. Were there times when Monsanto workers were injured in cyanide spills? A Not that I recall. I don't think there were. Our plant was an outside plant without wails and we had suitable antidotes for ovanude, and 1 don't recall having to use ut at all, these antidotes. MR. MC CONNELL: Let me show you a document, Kelly, which we will mark as Kelly Exhibit 4. (Kelly Exhibit 4 identified. ,. BY MR. MC CONNELL: 2 If vou' d like to take a moment and look t.tat .\e__y. Yes, I will. Have you hac a chance to look that over, _ oeg your paro.cn/ Have you had a chance to look that over? I'm half wav thrcucrh . Taxe vour time. I O i l l ) .1 - UJ t o U ) U> Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 300-336-oe46 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062711 79 A Yes, sir, I've read it. - Q Is this a letter that you got from Otto Smith ir. 1970, sir? . A Yes, it is. Q It's dated September 28, 1970? A Yes, sir. Q And Otto Smith -- who was Otto Smith? A He was one of the physicians at the Beeier-Manske clinic. Q And he did work for Monsanto at the Texas City plant? . A Weil, he was a member of the staff at Beeier-Manske. And as I said before, the two principai members c t that s tar f that c ame over were Manskg and Beeler, cut Smith came over at s ome times, and he certain iv fillea -- anv one of tnem would - -* * * : p q p n " c h a s * n c bssi.s. Q Wouid you reac the first sentence of the ietter for us. Or. Keiiy? A "We are stili seeing the workmen who were injured in the cyanide oerivative spiii." Do vou rememrer that sciii now, Or. Keiiy? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. .Nationwide Coverage 102-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062712 in 'o Ho A No , : dor.'t. Q Do vou rememoer receiving this letter from I' Smith? A Now I do. Q There had been a soill and some of the slant workers had been injured by the cyanide materials? Yes, sir )o vou rememoer now nar.v worxers were 10 No, sir, although he mentions -- be mentioned nve . 12 Q In the third paragraph, Dr. Kelly, Dr. Smith :eils you it's interesting that all seemed to have :erebra_ sicns and svmotoms . Thev, of course, 'were :yanctic. What does 'cyanotic" mean? A Thev're blue. They don't have enough oxygen arc mat's r.oticeaole in a oerioherai circulation. Q Is that a typical symptom of cyanide poisoning? A "ss, it :s. 3 And wnat does the chrase 'cerebral, sions and Weil, a sign is something that pr.ysicai_y Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. Nationwide Coveraee 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062713 :42Z2 . b UJ to t - CO ai abjective occurrence. In ocher words, cyanosis is a sign. Symptom might be a headache or unconsciousness. Q And is that typical with cyanide poisoning? A Yes, sir. Q Further down in thatparagraph there's a reference to "wild thrashing, purposeless movements." Do you see that, sir? A Yes, sir. 2 Is that tycical ofcyanidepoisoning? A I would say so. It certainly could happen when you're unconscious and when you don't have enough oxygen. Q I think we can put that aside now. A :hink it should be noted that the fou: -- u ;aragraoh where ne says I nave nac occasion to use oxygen :n two oases this year. Neither of which was at ail rebates to exDOSure to cyanide or anv cyanide derivative. You don; o ' noerors - on so ss o*si.soonu oo ons iuvs worker ccisoninas we were os-Kino socu: No . Those were otner oatier.ts seen at one ?hcse were orivate cases- of his. Tne was a vcunc cirl and the other was a terser, who hac a stroxe Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 SOO-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062714 32 2 Not related to the cyanide spill we were talking about? A That's right. That's correct. Q Dr. Kelly, what is AN catalyst tar? It's not or. the exhibit. A What is- -Q What is AN catalyst tar? A Spell the rest of it. AN - 2 Catalyst, c-a-t-a-i-y-s-t, tar. A I don't know. I'll have to write mat down ar.c _ook at it. Q I can help you out, Dr. Kelly, because it actually appears in a letter that you wrote, let me shew you a document that we'll mark as Kelly Exhibit 3. 'Kelly Exhibit 5 identified. EY MR. MC CONNELL: 2 Co you recognize this as a memo that you wrote on July 2, 1952, Dr. Kelly? A Weil, I certainly wrote it, and the cate was July the 3rd, 1952. 2 Is this vour simature at the bottom cf the Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 30O-336-6t>46 410-664-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062715 83 A Yes, it is. - Q And it's a memo to Mr. J.R. Mares, M-a-r-e-s, at Texas City? A That's correct. Q And right reside the subject line on the memo it says "AN catalyst tar." What is AN catalyst tar, Dr. Kelly? A It's a mixture of -- AN is acrylonitrile. Catalyst is an additive that was used to make acrylonitrile. They had various catalysts. The tar is what was the chemical composition that remained in the distillate column after the AN was manufactured. Q Could the tar be known as still bottoms or heavy A Yes, sir. Q What catalysts were usee in the acrylonitrile crccess at Texas Citv, Cr. Kelly, do you know? A I don't rememner them. I think they were butvienes. There were various catalysts but I don't know them new. C Cr. Kelly, locking at the first sentence cf your memo, vou sav 'Some time aao vau requested toxicity tests Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-oo46 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062716 34 on the AN catalyst tar.' Do you see that? A Yes, sir. Q And Monsanto had conducted some testing by the time you wrote this memo? A Yes, sir. Q And lookingagainat yourmemo, the firstpage of this exhibit, you reported that the AN catalyst tar is moderately toxic? A Y 0 s/ , Q Was tnat a true statement at the time? A Yes, sir. Q Monsanto knew in1952 that the ANcatalyst tar was moderately toxic?. A Yes. You have to remember that's bv clas S1f i on. Dther ceocie mav have tifferer.t ciassif i C 3 t2 ' ens as far as toxicity was concerned., The were no set standards, like boiling point, vapor O2T0 S S anc stuff like that. 2 Some people might think it was mere toxic? A Some might think it was less. 2 Your opinion is it was moderately toxic? A That's correct. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-34/-j/GO 300-336-oo46 410-684-45-0 WATER_PCB-SD0000062717 35 Q Ana that was your opinion at the tine in.1952? A That's correct. Q Let re ask you to look at the thirc page of this exhibit Or. Kelly, under "discussion," second paragraph. A Yes, sir. Q Is this part of the laboratory report on the toxicit:y testing that was done? Is this part of the laberat:cry report that was done on the toxicity testing? Yes, i- is. < Would you rear ode parr zz ohao repero ohac beains at "autcosv A Yes, sir. Q Would you read that for us? Yes, sir. Oid I read it or will I read it? -tc Would you. .-1 'At autoosv there were instances of spotted 1'vers succestinc oossibie dvsfunction of that organ. Otherwise, the viscera acpeared normal 'ey microscopic examination. ' V In 1352 when vou had this study done, Monsanto knew o;:at the AN catalvst tar could cause liver dvsrun:- - - - - i Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 232-347-3700 500-336-oo46 410-664-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062718 36 A Well, we didn't know that and that's really -- if you're taking acute tests and animals die in 12 to 24 hours, you really don't have time for any pathology to shew up. So this laboratory technician is locking at the liver. It says spotting. I don't know what that means. A microscopic examination of an acute toxicity test doesn't tell you much, and I don't think I would put any credence, oius or minus, in that second sentence. 2 And ov the seccr.c sentence you mean otherwise, the viscera appeared normal" - A No, the whole paragraph. "At autopsy there were instances of spotted livers." I don't know what that means. I don't know whether that occurred at the last stares of the animal. After ail when an animal has died from an overdose of a compound, things happen in the morphology of it and you get spotted livers from collections of blood or collections of bile or Bob knows what. Q And this was a test to determine one minimum letnai dose of AN catalyst tar; is that correct? A That's correct. MR. BRAY: Excuse me. I criect. I'm sura this Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 300-336-6o46 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062719 J 87 is unintentionally misleading, but you left something 2 rather signif leant out of that question. 3 MR. MC CONNELL: I object to your coaching. If 4 you have an objection -- 5 MR. BRAY: It's a misleading -- 5 MR. MC CONNELL: It's not a misleading question. 7 MR. 3RAY: It's terribly misleading. 3 MR. MC CONNELL: And I object to your coaching. 3 MR . 3RAY: You left something out of what you 10 purport ed * read and I can't believe you're intentionally 11 doing i t but if you are, I'm going to let it sit with 12 that. 13 MR. MC CONNELL: Jack, first of ail, I didn't intentionally leave anything out, and secondly, I don't Ut think - MR. BRAY: Why don't you put in the simple fact -- . 13 MR. MC CONNELL: No, Jack. I object to the 19 coaching and if you persist in this, we'll seek an order 20 from Magistrate Rubenstein. 21 MR. BRAY: You oar. go ahead because this is 22 potentially outrageous to read something like that. ; Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. . Nationwiae Coverage | 102-347-3700 300-336-646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062720 88 ME. MC CONNELL: What is outrageous is your deliberately and directly violating the Court's order. ME. 3RAY: You're looking at something and intentionally leaving it out of your question, even though you're both looking at it, to make the transcript appear worse than it will be. MR. MC CONNELL: No, sir, your objection is on the record and I object to anything else. MR. BRAY: You heart my objection. THE WITNESS: May I have the question over. MR. MC CONNELL: Let's read the question back. (The reporter read the record as requested.) BY MR. MC CONNELL: 2 Is that correct, Dr. Kelly? MR. BRAY: Same objection. THE WITNESS: That was the question. That wasnet the title of this. It's for laboratory rats and the oral dose for laboratory rats. BY MR. MC CONNELL: Q Let's break it down. then. The title or sucject of the test is the "Minimum lethal oral dose of acrvionitrile cataivst tar, Monsanto lot number H 335, :or Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. Nationwide Coveraee 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062721 I O) I > 14.) (. > 39 laboratory rats in New Zealand white rabbits"; is that correct, sir? A Yes, sir. Q That's the full title of the report. Was the purpose of the test to determine the minimum lethal dose for those animals? A Yes, sir. g And the laboratory that did the test for you reported that there was passable dysfunction of the liver; is that correct? A Suggested possible dysfunction. Q Do you remember, Dr. Kelly, there were discussions about the soot from the acetylene process at the Texas City plant back in the 1950s? A Yes, sir. Q The acetyleneprocess was the process used at the Texas City plant? A Yes, sir. g Ana was it part of the acrylonitrile manufacturing process? A Was it what? g Was the acetyleneprocess part of the Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 302-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062722 90 acryloni triie manufacturing process there p . A It was one of the feedstocks or the building |W .1 aM blocks f * For acrylonitrile? A That's correct. 2 Do you remember discussing the possibility that the acet yiene soot would cause cancer? A Was what? * Do you remember discussing the possibility that the acet yiene soot would cause cancer? A What was the last word? 2 Cancer. Cancer? Yes . That the soct was cancer -- cr carcinocenic, cr what are you asking me? Z I'm asking you whether, back in the 1950s, you can remember discussinc me cossibilicy mar the soot crom the acetylene process was carcinogenic? A I may have. I don't remember. Z What does the word "carcinogenic" mean? A The oossibilitv of causinc the occurrence cf Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062723 91 cancer in laboratory animals or in the human animal. Q If a material is carcinogenic, chat simply means it causes cancer? A It ail depends what species you're calking about. It may be carcinogenic for rats and not carcinogenic for humans. Q But it means it causes cancer in something, doesn't it, Dr. Kelly? A Yes, sir. Q Do you remember that the Union Carbide medicai staff believed that the acetylene soot could cause cancer in workers? A I don't remember chat. They may have cold me. I con't know. MR. MC CUNNELL: Let me shew you a cccument which we'll mark as Kelly Exhibit 5. (Kelly Exhibit 5 identified. BY MR. MC CDNNELL: 2 Do you recognize this as a letter chat you received from either H.K. Eckert or E.K. Eckert? A H.K. Eckert, yes, I do. 2 Eckert is E-c-k-e-r-c. Who was Mr. Eckert? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 102-347-3700 300-336-oo4o 410-634-2330 . WATER_PCB-SD0000062724 ! 54 A Q A V A time? He was a plant manager at Texas City. - Monsanto's plant manager? That is correct. This is a latter that's dated March 14, 1955? Yes, sir. You rebeived this from Mr. Eckert at about thai U > < i> - J <J> O Q Do you see on the very first paragraph Mr. Eckert says '".ir. Dunlop asked me to convey to you some information he received from Tom Wilbur, Plant - z SuDermcendent of Carbide's olant at Texas Citv." Do you A A -- A >- 1e s, sir. Who was Mr. Dunlop? I think he was head of research at Texas City. At Monsanto's Texas City plant? That's correct. He was a Monsanto employee? Yes, sir. Would vcu read for us the next sentence in that Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Manonwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062725 542:3 i}\ A "During a conversation with Tom it was mentioned that their doctors who are resident at the Texas City plant ;they have two) have arrived at the conclusion of the possibility of a carcinogenic nature of soot produced in the acetylene process." Q You rememoer now this was brcugnt to your attention back in 1955 that the acetvlene soot micht be caret nocrer. ic ?here was a oossibiiitv Would vou read the next sentence "I bring this to your attention for any possirie" - 3 No, sir, I'm sorry, the one I'm . referring to A Oh, Carries produces acetylene . :y the same orooess that we do and rresumably the soot from the two processes is similar." 3 So you knew in 1955 that the Carrice people were concerned that the soot micht be carcinccenic, sir? A Weil, I don't know what the nature of the amount of their concern was. They came to a conclusion that it was possibly carcinogenic, the soot was possibly carcinccenic. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 300-336-6646 410-664-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062726 94 Q And you knew than Monsanto was using the same process in its plant in Texas City? A Yes, sir. Q Let me refer you now to the next paragraph, Dr. Keilv. A "I am bringing this to your attention for any possible action you might want to take. This information is not generally known at Carbide and no one knows it here at our plant except hr. Dunlop and me. We prefer to keep it this way until something definite can be determined.'' Q Why did Monsanto want to keep it confidential and not generally known at the plant, Dr. Kelly? MR. 3RAY: Obiection to the mischaracterization. BY MR. hC DDNNE: Dr. Kelly? hay I have the question back. Whethe: 'The reDorter read the record as requested.' THE WITNESS: I do not know why they said that : not Carbide asked them to keeD it confidential or net, I don't know. BY MR. hC CCNNELL: What did vou do in resoense to this letter, Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. \aaonwiae Coveraee 202-347-3700 S00-336-O646 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062727 hO H - CD 95 Dr. Kelly, do you remember? ' A Yes. I checked our cancer file and found char we did not have any clusterings of cancers in our workers 'O cu -J cn L/l 4 - who were exposed to the acetylene soot. I am not certain -- I do not remember at the present time whether I checked with the Carbide doctors to find out if they actually had any cancers in their workers. I looked up what information I could find as the possibility of the cancer being caused by the acetylene soct. I do not knew O if there had been any laboratory work on this, so I don t knew where the cancers were occurring, if any cancers were u \ Ui 4 - t*J fvj occurring. After all, they had just said that it's a possibiiitv that it might. We didn't have any cancers. There was no cancers listed in the literature from acsv/iene soot. MR. MC CONNELL: Let me show you a document, Dr. Kelly, which we will mark as Kelly Exhibit ". (Kelly Exhibit " identified. 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: L 1nJ Q Or. Kelly, I know this document looks like it's covered with that soct we've been talking about. This was the form that was riven to us bv Monsanto. Oo you Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062728 VO I m (7 ^ O r I C n| 96 recognize this as a letter you wrote back tc lr. Sckert cn March 20, 1956? A Yes, sir. 5 It's marked "confidential"? A I don't know who out that on. It is marked "confidential. " Q And it looks like it's typed right above the tax: of the letter? A Well, I can't comment on that. It's on there someplace. Q It's in the same kind of cvpeface char's used in the letter? A Mine is different typeface. 1 It's in capital letters hue ic's typewritten. A Weil, it's a lot bigger chan the caps in the r*0S- zz. t.ris 1 s ti ti 2 . Q Would you read the first sentence of teat letter for me. A "As you know, there is a great heal cf caik arcut the carcinoaer.icitv of hydrocarbons derived rrom Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Naaonwiae Coverage 302-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062729 57 Q T 'hat was a hot topic at the time? A I don't knew what you mean by 'hot,'' but here U> CU - I CT\ t n LJ was a lot o f talk about lead black and carton black which went into t he tires, and the question was are these carcinogen! c or not. "I imagine there is a certain amount of truth in it but certainly by far the largest is speculation Q That last sentence that you read for us, Dr. Kelly, 'I imagine there is a certain amount of truth :o in it but certainly by far the largest is speculation," l ^ that's what you wrote in your memo in 1955; is that right? 12 A Yes, sir. 1 ? Q And you did believe at the time that there was a certain amount of truth in the discussion about carcinogenicity of hydrocarbons derived from oil? _ 0 A A certain amount of truth? 1 Yes, sir. . A Weil, it depends on which hydrccarron they're talking about from oil, There are any r.umoer of hydrocarbons you get from oil and in relationship cf that to aervionitrile scot is -- cr acetviene soot is certainly :___ termed Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-547-3700 300-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062730 3422-.: 98 vo Q Let's go on down. The next line in your nemo or letter says "this is mv opinion as far as the soot is concerned"; is that right? A That's correct. 2 And your letter goes onto set out your opinion? A Yes, sir. Q Would you read the sentence by the numbered oaragrarh 1. A "It might very well be carcinogenic, although I know of no studies or oases that have occurred.' Q And that was youropinion in 1955, that the 12 acetylene soot might very well be carcinogenic? 13 A It might. 14 2 Would you rear paragraph 2, Ir. kelly? 13 A "I do not relieve anv excerimer.tal work is 15 indicated because as I understand it, the content of the 4" soot varies considerably deDendinc uoon chances or tns gas 1 3 stream as we 11 as the oo nvergent factors. 1 3 ' 2 So even though you knew that the soot might oe 23 carcinogenic , you didn't conduct any studies? - - A I didn't know it might be. I said it1' s cos s L'z le . Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062731 34 aa Q You said "it might very well be carcinogenic"? A That's right. Q But you didn't start any experimental work or studies on 9 A Well, I didn't start experimental work. I started doing studies about it. I mean, we checked the literature. We checked the government. We checked our If) Q Did you fine any, Dr. Kelly? - 'sj A Find any what? Cancers? ' 1 Q Did you find any studies onacetylene soot? A I do not recall finding any, no, sir. ' l Q Did you conduct one? A Yes, sir. 1 And when did you conduct that study? A What? 1 When did you conduct that study? A I'd say 1955 sometime. Q In your memo here you said "I do not believe any experimental work is indicated. " A Yes, sir. W 4- C Was there something that changed your mine acout Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coveraee 202-347-3700 300-336-646 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062732 100 that? A I don't think so, no, sir. - Q Maybe I have a disconnect on this. Did you or did you not conduct a study on the carcinogenicity of acetylene soot in 1956? A It depends on what you mean by 'study. ' If you're talking about animal study -- 3 A toxicology study. A Animals we did not. Toxicological stucy by literature searches we did. Q 3ut did you find any studies? A No, sir, we did not. To the best of my recollection, we did not. 3 And you did not conduct your own toxicology stucy m animals? A That's correct. 3 let's look at paragraph 2, Dr. Kelly. You said "it would seem to be a good idea to insist upon complete cleanliness as you are doing.1 Why, Dr. Kelly? A Weil, even if there are suspicions mat you may have a carcinogenic product, it's always good incuscria- oractice to avoid excessive contact. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. .Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062733 Q Would you read the next sentence, sir. A "I relieve that'' -- Q No, no, it's the next sentence in paragraph 3. A Let me finish that whole paragraph. I'll start over. "It would seem to be a good idea to insist upon complete cleanliness, as you are doing. I understand, however, from the grapevine that the men state they blow soot out of their noses after working around the filters. If this is true, I believe a dust respirator should be mandatory." Q So you knew at the time that the workers in the Texas Citv plant blew soot out of their noses after they were working in this area? A I didn't know that. I said I learr.ee from the oracevcr.e that ceocie told tram so that -- they did blow SGC* 3Uwi ' 2 Would it be fair to say in 1956 you wanted to eliminate worker exocsure to the soot? A I wanted to minimize it. * And why was t hat, Dr. Xei ly ? A Because crier's was a suspi cion c ri e c c 7i e r* s might be a oaro inccenie acrenc in the soot even chough we were Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. Nationwide Coverage 202*347-3700 300-336-6o46 410-684-2350 WATER_PCB-SD0000062734 102 not at ail certain and we had r.o evidence that there: was such a carcinogenic agent. Q Would you skip down, Dr. Kelly, and. read the paragraph -- it's not numbered but it's i.nmeciately below paragraph 4. A Why don't 1 read ail of 4? "I believe our doctor should be cn the alert to watch for any changes in the skin of the workers." 3 let me ask you why you thought the doctors aught to be on the alert? A Because in certain oils, hydrocarbon oils , skin cancers had occurred. That had been reported. For example, carbon black, which is derived from oil, has caused some skin cancers m workers. lead clack, which is usee in paint, which is also a carton, a scot from hydrocarbon oils, does net cause any skin troubles, any skin cancers so that here we have a compound which we , ton't knew will cause any skin problems cut watch out to be sure that nothing sneaks up on us. 3 You had a suspicion that it might cause skin -'an^nr? A We just wanted -- well, I really didn't have a Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 102-347-3700 300-336-64o -i 10-664-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062735 14 2 22 . 3 ;b 103 suspicion that it would, but I wanted to be sure cf it. Be a belt and suspenders man. Q The purpose of putting the doctor on alert is to find out whether there were any skin cancers? > 0 U .) -1 U l U l A That's correct. Q Would you read the next part of the letter for us, Dr. Kelly. A "I don't think this is going to be a matter of toe great a concern but I don't want to minimize it. There has been, as you know, a great deal of talk about U l I I I .1- CO to h '` O carcinocenesis in the oil industry but frankly, you never hear about too many" -- there seems to be a word scratched out. 2 Is at 'oases, ' Dr. Kelly? A What? 2 Is the missing word 'oases"? A What's the word? 2 Cases. A I can't make it out. :o '2 Why don't you read the nextsentence. A "Sven if a case develops on the skin, it is fairiv easily treated" -- I can't make cut the wore. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coveraee 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062736 10 Q Is the next sentence "If it develops in the not es or lungs, that is something else"? A Right. 3 Why would it be something else, Dr. Kelly, if the ancer developed in the nose or the lungs? A It's a lot tougher to treat than cancer of the sjcm . 3 A lot tougher to diagnose? A Yes. Mayoe not the nose out it's not sticking out there on the skin like -- that's pretty easy to diagnose. Q Lung cancer is hard to diagnose? A Weil, if it's in the lung, it's inside and you -- a e as sure or it as sometr. e sk ur 3 Dr. Kelly, we've been going for about an hour. Wou_d you like to take a short break? A It's all right with me. Whatever you want to do. MR. MC CONNELL: Why don't we do that. 'Recess.) - BY MR. MC CONNELL: Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 . 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062737 105 Q Dr. Kelly, what are polynuclear aromatic compounds ? j A Well, it's an aromatic compound; it includes a benzene ring, which is six carbon atoms in a ring. Polynuclear has several of those, one up to any number, usually four or five, and aromatic is a description of an organic compound where there are ring structures in contrast to aliphatic, a-l-i-p-h-a-t-i-c, compounds, which are straight chain hydrocarbons. :o Q A number of the polynuclear aromatic compounds are known to cause cancer in humans? _ c A I don't know if -- there may be some that cause -l cancer. There may be some poivarcmatic compounds that are creser.t in vecetabies that in lares doses could cause canoer. In small doses thev certainly do not cause cancer _ D in humans. There are some poivarcmatic nuclear compouncs such been anthracenes, a-n-t-h-r-a-c-e-n-e-s, which occur in barbecuing steaks that in sufficient dose can cause cancer, but bv no means do ail ooivaromatios cause cancer in humans or in animals. 1 But some cf them do cause cancer? A Yes, they do. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. ; Nationwide Coveraee j 202-347-3700 800-336-6o4O 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062738 IQ 6 Q And that's been known for a very long rime? A Yes. I don't: know what you mean by "very long. " Q 100 years? A Oh, let'5 say 5 0, 75 . i n r~- m 0 1 O MR. MC CCNNELL: Let me show you, Or. Kelly, a document which we will mark as Kelly Exhibit 8. .'Kelly Exhibit S identified.. . BY MR. MC CONNELL: Q Dr. Kelly, you see on the front gage of this document this is a report on cancer and chemical r^j r'l - r u i 'n i - m structur A Yes, sir. 0 Monsanto medical deoartment? A i e s, sir. 2 And if you look on the next gage, you'll see this was written bv Jack T. Oarrett? Yes, sir. 13 That's the Jack T. Oarrett wnc worked 2or you the meal cal department? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 /**> The date is March 1363? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062739 107 A Yes, sir. - Q Do you rememoer this is a report, that Mr. Garrett wrote on cancer and chemical structure? A Yes, sir. Q Would you turn with me, Dr. Kelly, to the page number 10. They're numbered at the top, and tell me when you have that. A Wait. I gotta find it. 2 Do you have that page? A Yes. Q Do you remember back in 1963 that Mr. Garrett wrote this report on cancer and chemical structure? A Do I what? 2 Do you remember that Mr. Darrett wrote this reocrt on cancer and chemical structure hack _r. 19 6 3 ? A Yes. 2 You were familiar with it at the time? A Yes. I really don't knew why he wrote it but I knew he did it. 2 On page 10 of this report near the bottom cf the cacre there's a section called "Polynuclear Aromatic Comccunds." Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. N'aaonwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062740 108 A Yes, sir. Q Would you read the first sentence in that section. A "This group of compounds has been studied ever since coal tar cancer was described more than a century age . ' Q Coal tar is one of the polynuclear aromatic compounds ? A Yes, sir. Q Do you agree with hr. Garrett that coal tar cancer was discovered and described more than 100 years age ? A I'm not certain about the time frame, but it's been cults a wnile age. 1 Would you reac the next sentence, Dr. Kelly? A 'There is more data available on compounds of this type than any other group." Q Do vou acree with hr. Garrett on that point? A Weil, I don't knew. I don't knew what type of data he's talking about, whether he's relating this to cancer. I past don't know what that means. q 3v 1363, Dr. Keilv, had there been a number of Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. Nauonwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-6646 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062741 .t 4*.- 109 studies cf polynuclear aromatic compouncs and theirabilitv to cause cancer? A I'm sorry, my attention wavered. Would you repeat it. I was reading the next paragraph. Q Certainly. By 1963, had there been a number cf 0 studies cf polynuclear aromatic compounds and their ability to cause cancer? A I don't know. Again, I can't quantify it. Jack mentions scrotal cancer 100 years age. -ie' s mentioning 10 scrotal cancer in petroleum refineries, presumably the last 40 cr 50 years. If that's what he means by lots of ' 0 them, that's fine. * 1 Q It was well known in 1963 that some cf these ccmccunds did cause cancer; is that right? A That's correct. Q Ana in fact, if you look with me ever to the continuation on page 11, would you read the sentence that starts "human exDerience.' A "with comtounds cf this type has shown that in certain circumstances there are human carcinogens. ' 1 It goes on to describe the scrotal cancers in cr.imnev sweeos? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 300-336-t>o46 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062742 no A Yes, sir. ' Q It goes on to describe the fact that the coal tar cancers were obviously caused by polynuclear aromatics absorbed on chimney soot and contained in coal tars? A Yes, sir. Q And he goes on to talk about the high incidence of scrotal cancer in wax pressmen in petroleum refineries? A Yes, sir. Q And he says that was traced to polynuclear aromatics found in the feedstocks? A Yes, sir. Q As well as the supernatant liquors from the wax presses ? A Yes, sir. )o vou acree tnat m mcse tomes were wen Known, That what? All of those thines were well known to the oeooie in the field' ton't know how well known scrota: cancer i: wax cressmen was Known. hr. Garrett knew about it? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 800-336-664* 410-684-2530 WATER_PCB-SD0000062743 :42 . 'b A Oh, yeah, he knew about it, obviously. Q You knew about it? A Frankly, until this article of his came out, wasn't too familiar with it, to the best of mv recollection now, until Jack wrote this. Q But you knew about it in 1963 when you read Mr. Garrett's record? A es, sir. Q Do you remember, Dr. Kelly, that back in the late 1950s Mr. Garrett was concerned about the presence c polynuclear aromatic compounds on the acetylene soot we've 12 been discussing here? ' i A Let's see that reference again. I don't know if we talked about Garrett. We talked about Fox. 1 don't .-:r.cw if we mentioned Garrett in that discussion. ,, 3 We hadn't cuits rotten to Mr. a -- ~ -- - Hi involvement in that but we're going to come back to it. My question now is simply, do you remember back m the late 1950s that Mr. Garrett was concerned about the oresence of ooivnuclear aromatic comtiounds in the Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 S00-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062744 acetviene soot ? No, I don't rememcsr, as well as I see it. rerr.ember r-.earing from Garrett about it. if we looked at the memos, that might refresh your memo::y on it? A Yes, it would. 'w At the Texas lity plant, Z)r. Kelly, were there a vine varusstv tf hvdrocaroons derived from til? A From wnat? From til? Yes, sir. A Weil, their feedstocks came from oil. That was true in the styrene process? Weil, they made ethvibenzene from benzene, whit wa s totai:v0C. rrcm c r -- r3iirksri9S . Was it true ir. the acrvicnitrtle trotess , were over::oarbons derived from oil in that trotess? vac 5i.it , zo t, h. 0 d s s r z z mv rscc-lscrrm. not fami':'aT- at the oresent date with aervionitriie crccess a:tc the flow -- S02T2TV/ Z.LZi VO U '~2.V0 S CIT. 0 U.0 2. Z Z 0 J 0 VO'J war.zee. zz add ? .-i "vi.rd rd *1 ow di.arTrarr.s zz. ms scrv-cmri..0 Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \ationwiae Coverage 1-2*347-3700 t00-33o-oo46 410-t'M-2TT,J WATER PCB-SD0000062745 process . ion't rememoer "nose tecav. tic on :j, ;dvious. Q Ana was in true that hydrocarbons derived fror. ._ were usee in the vinyl chloride process? A Yes, sir, but I do not believe that there were :ivnuciear aromatics in the vinyl chloride process. Q You don't believe that as we're sitting here ;cav ? A I'm net sure c: that. ' Q You're ~ust not sure one way or the other? A That's correct. Q How was Monsanto disposing c :he acetylene scot : 1955, Dr. Kelly, do you know? A _ con ' t ,<now . 2 To vou nave anv ideawhat _t was coino w: No, sir, I don That wasn't oa: ir r e s cc r. s ir i _ 11 v as medicaJ A No, sir. 1 let's talk about acrylonitrile, Tr. Kelly. :uld vou acree that acrvlonitrile os a toxic cnermca. (JO Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. :::-347-"oo ..ntionwiat; coverage '?00-33o-oo-to -H 0-MU-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062746 114 A Agair., by an individual -- I say it. is a toxic chemical, It's net nearly as toxic as hydrogen cyanide, but it ccuid be considered toxic as an industrial chemical _s concerned, yes. Q Hvcrcgen cyanide is an extremely toxic chemical? A Y e s , 11 i s . Q Acrylonitrile is toxic but not as toxic as hyoroger. cyanide? A That's correct. Q Is tiers a relationship between acrylonitrile and cyanide? A I don't knew what you mean by a "relationship. ' Q Are cyanide compounds used in making If you ir.oes ted acrylonitrile, woul.d that ^3i9SSS cyanioe compounds in the body? Weil, I have oni v experience wi th one person, chemist at our 5 pringfieid laboratory/ who drank about a pint of serviem trile. I' m not sure of t .te dose but it wa sag ood-sizeo dose and it took him, I minx, 12 hours to die. 5o from odao :ne case, it's not in the same ACE-r EDERAL REPORTERS, I\C. :e:-:'47-}7GO \atiomviae Coverage 800-336-oo+e 110-684-2r30 WATER PCB-SD0000062747 _ -r 1 ,__- ballpark with cyanide which you're talking snout minutes with a much smaller cose. MR. MC DONNELL: let me show you a document, Dr. Kelly, that we will mark as Kelly Exhibit 5. 'Kelly Exhibit 9 identified. 3Y MR. M.C DONNELL: Q Do you recognize this as a memorandum that you orai t-qo om Dr. William E. Nesseil, N-e-s-s-e-l-l? A Vqc 3 L -- . Q And you received it about June DC, 1954? A Yes, sir. Q Does this memo describe the acryic rile SU1C ide vou told me about? .Anc wnc was _ r . Nes se i _ 7 He was cur c_ar.t onvsician at a = s a . :nuse11s clan: tr.e Monsanto Comoar.v -jig ne reocrts tr.at one me cosmost: :omir.ittea suicide :v .kina acrv_onicn_e; _s tr.at vou see _r. the second -- actua__y, _et Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \anonwiae Coverage 202-347-3700 300-33o-oo4e 410-bt4-2r?0 WATER PCB-SD0000062748 --q-32t vou -ovm uncsr "r.s - ruemerec "aretrsor., ".'*.3 'sccrt ;avs ne cisc 5ocrcxi"s-= -v __ tours = ;ter :es, sir. And would vou read the caracrrao.t rim after Wait a rt ~'Ue e last the -- Toxn :ase: :atai doses :or rats, a _etnai toss ..tcivioua. wct.i te aoDrcximateiv ; he took at least Jess; .at? 'Jo, te a- s " r* 2l " . rt 0 tttt Ivar.amid comcanv tulle Tha ats a oss 10 r mans, wo ow mucn is 0 r*v 30 s an 3ur.cs. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Ratiomviae Coverage 202-347-3700 hOO-336-oo-k? 41O-oM-OrrO WATER_PCB-SD0000062749 Very small rose? -- oeascccn-- An- Zr. Nesseil believed "bar ohao r.ucr. would :s ose ? No, he didn't: say mao. He said basec on me or. of American Cvaramid, mev calculated char a se would be 1 oo's, and I don't knew whao else :: goes on to sav mao me or.emiso m leaso 15 oo's ? yes. I don't know how ohev came ou u witr c's. Paragraph 2 said an amouno in s x c 0 s s s ana araaraDh " he said ao leaso 15 cc ' 3 so : w how .uch rhe ran oook. o ( * a c c - '* a ^ Wellt zhere ara un a unce . Anc dcoarer.tlv "ha* amour, r '.'/as a e~ra* uoss.- It vas far rim. Ace-Federal Reporter: 1-Z*.m7-3700 \auonwiae eraee 'v )0-336-*>o-k> Ixc. 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062750 U\ Qc~ The :cx::ir was wa__ .cncvm i: Yes, sir :u knew about mat even before the surcide tne tnemrst/ l es :rte, Tr. Kelly, char ran :n as we__ maestr rsur ticient rose And inhalation simrtv means breath. tne accrs A ;he chemrcai? rorrecr Seme fatalities have occurred? -v h G " . - a ** a -- * o c ~ .a m o We--, ve never nac anv. No -- ' nna -- ar -- cn c r - rerr. ar.vcr*e v/ommc v 1 nr. - a : ~ ccr ' - v-eca a,*- '"nrs **' ns 'vnemer mere lave oeen -- ,, nave a vaaus recc__eerier ;ome ..itess a r* ' I cor.'t Know if went Aaair., net at Monsanto ana I Ace-Federal Reporter: 1'2-347*37T}0 Nationwide Coveraee S00-33o-6o-hi IAC. 410-bM-2350 WATER_PCB-SD0000062751 119 Ana you .--.new z~a' the 1950s? Yes, sir. _s - :ue, Kelly, tha- itrile ^ a severe SKrn eaa e^/e ant ? A res, sir Q Causes burns? A I bea vcur ran Yes ^ Causes r.eaaacr.es snc vomiiir.c -* I 'it. r.or su'-e . It all deosnds sr. rr.e oos e . _ t all bepenas on me temperature at which the m.areri ai is exposed. At ambient temperatures, the exposure is much less than if the material is heated up. Q .And mis information about toxicity that we' ve ceer. taikinc aoout was known to vou in me 1 3 5 0s? .mat _s stvrer.e monomer, ve i. ncunc aenvea rr- arny1censers -t r.as -- :hemicai and it's moderate to low toxicir '.arm/ ao: 3 f ~ ^ c v,-as manufactured bv Monsant' uant / ndustriai used m 'exa s Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage - 02-.'4,TO ?00-336-oo4o 410-0^^4-20^0 WATER_PCB-SD0000062752 A Yes, sir. ' < Who were me largest producers or sryrer.e wo rid ;r. *40 ' 9 5 0s ana ` S C s 7 A Whetaer lew or Mor.sar.ro was , I oor. r mow . Were they rhe rwo oiggesr? f A I believe sc. - *. I believe so, roc. : A Weii, we aorse. 3 MR. ERA": I oo'ser ro roar res nr.or.y. H. yon v- - 3Y MR. MC I0NNELL: Is it fair ro sav styrene was ar. importer.' prcau zz at that time for Monsanto? - A 3h, yes, ir was a big-volume item. It wa rem.- _ -- -- a 72 V/a S Z 27 Z W2_ r. Z f ER2 1. " 5S7 ' R Z. 3 L. X .1 Z Z 3 W i. " . I iriean, we' z ;:il be making chem::a_3 wh- - - _r 3 n v 27 0 n s . : 3ut it was om.oortar.t to you? 3 A Yes, it was important. - . And you knew or. me 1 3 50s abour me roxio nr-,-re. -- d monomer7 - 2 R Yes, sir. Ace-Federal Reporters, Iac. ' ..'Oionwice Cos erase 202-347*3700 ^00-336-oo-+o 410-0*4-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062753 In :ac., vou ,<new a oarr amount, accuo monomer toxioitv m one .?fcs; _s on sn't know when I came uocn the inform,ao; ;o I've mown junta a wru.a, ; Do you remember serving as an expert witness ran a case in the lata 1940s? . I beer vour oardon? ,'qu rememoer ser'/' no as an exrei rate case m one _ate -r'tOs ion' t ramemoer Don't rememoer one wav :ne other what? You don't remember one way or the othej -'hat' s correct. >u rememoer some _ow ~ ' o n r.ac - s n o r-, q - :es , Anc vou rememoer wno son? mantists were? jn _rrsn was one :.oem Ana wno was Don _rosn. .nose .j* Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. 2J2-347-3700 Nationwide cuveraee 700-33o-oo4t> 410-604-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062754 . 4 Head of "heir toxicology department at Dow'. And do you remember the ethers? Mo, : don't. Did vou have some daalir.es with Dcr. Irish over ears : Yes , I' did Ln the sub'ec* stvrer.e anc i wa s .-<e mace oara__e. we r.ad suite a :ew oisoussior.s ar.c meet mo: ,ow. rish and his colleagues published in 1940s? A Am I familiar with the article? mo re tame out ntrations os tne materia-- Ana vou were :ami__ar ate 1940s? ue cack MR. MC DONNELL: Let me show vou a document Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Co\ erase - CO S00-336-oo4o 41 0-6H4-2ot0 WATER_PCB-SD0000062755 123 Dr. Kelly, that we will mark as Kelly Exhibit 13. ' Kelly Exhibit 10 identifier. BY MR. MC DONNELL: 2 I'll past ask you briefly whether this is a oo: of the article that you and I have been talking about written by Or. Irish and his colleagues? A Yes, sir, it is. 0 It's an article called "The Resocr.se cf Laboratory Anina-s to Monomeric Styrene ? 10 A Vo c Q Do you know the other gentlemen listed with * z Irish as the authors cf this report? 13 A Yes, V.K. Rowe I didn't know too well. Adams rm O r*/ not as well as I did Rowe cr Irish. I think Rowe ir.ttsi.v zz__;wec ~risr. as r.eao zz one _accrat: 2 Were all of those ceoole Oow employees' A Yes, they were. :'_mo asK you :k at the last cage, Ir. .-,ei_y, cac you nave that now.' Vac I'd 'ust like to direct your attention cuicki; le section mamec inclusions Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. nationwide Cos erase :::-347-:>mn S00-336-do4o 410-684-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062756 24 A Yes, sir. ' 2 They reporter mat Vapor concentrations or monomeric styrene wnicr. are acutely cancerous to guinea pigs and rats range from 13-12 milligrams per liter .approximately 2400 parts per million) for an 8-hour to 46 milligrams per liter 13,000 parts per million: for an exposure of 30-60 minutes.'' You were aware of that information back in the 1940s: is that correct, sir? . :es . 2 Skipping town m that paragrapr. tr.ey reported .mmeaiate deaths result - A Let's take the second sentence first. Q Why don't you read the second sentence for us A "Hi.cnsit concsnnv", -i_cns 5.2T0 i_mocssl'zL e dzi-. :rzir.arv nernDeranures . whv * ca r* --*">o ^ car-gr''2 Immeaiane aeanhs result. :rcm ir.e jcr* ~ne central nervcus svsrem, wni.e many a, ; ^ t ron ~ a ' v*ssui - '--cm c n s oneumor*' a vr 1 cr. o*ecroen0 -- v -svsicc ici_cwing acute rung irritation." 2 So in this study, the material caused teams :ne exoenmentai teatn; Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \anomviae Coverage 122-347-3700 S00-336-oo4*> 410-684-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062757 10 - A It what? - u In the expe rimer.tai animals? 1 A Yes, it oaused deaths at 10,000 pa res ^ or 4 Tv ^ ' ' ` nt , 5 Q What does i t mean. Dr. Kelly, that the pin, mary f action wa s on the central nervous system? - A It was an anesthetic. ; - I'm sorry, sir? ? A It's an anesthetic. :c w What's the result of that? -- A You can go to sleep. You can go i ntc a coma and 12 VC U T ' 0 f you stay i n it long enough. Q Let me ask you to look down at the nex t to last I l C 5. r 3. C IT 2. c r. , Dr. Kelly. Would vou read that f or u s , - ^ A Monomeric styrene produces a reaction on - raooit's skin which is vary similar t o that croduced ; tne common aromatic hvdrccar bens . In industrial use same crecautions should be observed to avoid skir. contact as are r.cv followed in are handling of other aromatic hyorccarbcn solvents.'' 2 You were aware of that information bacx in tne Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 $00-33d-oo46 -rl0-684-2??0 WATER_PCB-SD0000062758 4 223.0 b 125 1 1940s? * 2 A Yes, that it was a skir. irritant, yes, sir. 3 Q So again, styrene monomer is not something you 4 want to put in your coffee? 5 MR. 3RAY: Objection to the trivialization and 6 the characterization inherent in that question. 7 MR. MC CONNELL: Objection to your speech. 3 MR. 3RAY: It's not a speech. It's an Q objection. 10 THE WITNESS: It's not intended as a food 11 1 12 additive. 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: 13 Q And you wouldn't put it in your coffee, 14 Or. Kelly, would you? MR. BRAY: Same cbjecticr.. It's repetitious. It's beer, askea and answered. THE WITNESS: No, I wouldn't put it in coffee. 18 3Y MR. MC IONNELL: ' 9 Q And you wouldn't want _t in your drinking ware 20 A Now, that depends. What dose are we talking about? Are we talking about 1 teasooonful of styrene in 2 2 tankfui of water? That wouldn't bother anybody. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. j 202-347-3700 Nationwide Co\ eraee S0Q-336-6O46 410-684-2:? :?0 WATER_PCB-SD0000062759 "t 4 J . w -4 / t/l Q Would you want it in your drinking water, ' 2 ' Dr. Kelly? 3 MR. BRAY: It's been asked anc answered. 4 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't want anything in my drinking water if it could be obtained without a 5 particular chemical, but I wouldn't object to it depending 7 upon the dose involved. Remember, he's talking about 3 inhalation here. You've gone over to drinking water, one 3 oral dose of the material. 10 BY MR. MC DONNELL: 11 Q Did they also look at the oral doses of styrene 12 monomer in this study, Dr. Kelly? 13 A Wait until I look. 14 Q Let me refer you to page299. Isthere a 13 section on oral administration, Dr. Kelly? 15 A Yes, there is. 1" Q And old they find a lethaldose in the oral 13 administration study? 19 A They found that giving 1.5 grams of material ce: 23 kilogram of body weight showed 120 percent survival. Now 21 if you want to transpose that directly to people, it's a 22 "3-kiiccram man, which was allegedly the average man, lit Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. :o:-34r-"oo Nationwide Coverase 800-336-<x>46 410-684-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062760 28 pounds, that would be 130 grams. 100 grams would be roughly equivalent to 3-1/2 ounces in the material every day to a person without causing any fatalities. There was irritation of the esopnagus and the stomach, which in some cases at 2 grams caused death of the animal from irritation. Q Let's look at the third paragraph under the section called "Oral Administration." Would you read that for us, Tr. Kelly. A The thiro paragraph? Q Yes, sir. A I just read it. "A very few oral doses of 2.0 grams per kilogram f50 percent solution) produced a pronounced irritation cf the esophagus and stomach which ruicklv resuiteo in one death cf the animal.. Even 1.0 cram oer kiloaram. cfter. caused a similar reaction after a few coses, with ceaths in some cases before the end cf the 28-day experimental period. Q So in the stucy, 1342 study, they found that oral doses could cause death as well as inhalation; is that correct? A As well as wnat? Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \ariomviae Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-bo46 410-684-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062761 *0 34222 . ,, 4b - Q They found that oral doses couid also cause - death; is that correct? - > Oh, yes, sir, if given enough cf rt. -t Q 2 think you mentioned earlier you were active i: = h 9 M d. n 21 z acturing Chemists Association; is that right, 5 Dr. Kell}' - A Yes, sir. 5 TL. What is a material safety data sheet? ? A Weil, it's a publication that _s intended to ^ descries the characteristics cf a product as veil as * - exoiainin g how it can be handled safely. _ i* Did the Manufacturing Chemists Association have - - a program cf writing material safety data sheets for : 4 '/arrets c hemicals? 4 t A *'oc ^ 7,bs v c.i. b . - ^ jfc And those safetv data sheets contained - _ r. f c ma t r '*'7* r; '^'012'""' ^ b -- ** - *-*r ** * cn0^ ' 33 -- s ? : a A Yes, sir, it tic. - ^ Did you write the material safety tata sheet ft 2 2 sivrsns L n 1949? - - A I don't think so. 1 think Cow must have. 22 n. You don't remember 'working on the material Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. \vinonwtae Coveraee 202*347-3700 ^00-33c-oo4o 41O-t>i>4-io50 WATER_PCB-SD0000062762 34223.0 0b 130 1 ' safety data sheet for styrene? 2 A I don't remember. We only got in the styrene 3 business at the close of World War II, where Dow had beer. 4 making it for quite some time before, so I know I didn't 5 write it. 0\ Q Did Monsanto operate the Texas City plant for the government during World War II? 3 A They bought it afterwards. I was gone. I do: r- Knew -b they operated it during the war. 10 Q You weren't around curing the war because you 11 were in the Army? 12 A That's correct. i 3 (Pause. ) - ^ BY MR. .MC CONNELL: -- Dr. Kelly, did you have a chance 3 3 3 2. -- X a* 2 3 7. 1 5 Mr. ^ >-.n t * si*j.2r' ncr ir^rscix v c 3 c k ? . _ A With whom? 1 3 Mr. Bray. 1 5 A Did I have a talk witn him about. wner. cid yo 2 ,5 T T today? 21 w During any of the breaks we've taken today. 22 A Not about this case. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \anomvtae Coveraee 222-347-3700 ^00-336-0040 410-684-2?:",) WATER_PCB-SD0000062763 131 Q About the deposition? ' A Not about that. I talked to him about the pas rami sandwich. Q But not about the case cr the deposition? A Not about the case at all. MR. MC CONNELL: Let me show you a document, Dr. Kelly, which we will mark as Kelly Exhibit 11. 'Keiiv Exhibit 11 identified.'. BY MR. MC CONNELL: Q Dr. Kelly, we've been talking about styrene toxicity, and I asked you whether you could remember being asked to testify as an expert witness in a styrene case in the late 1940s. Do you recognize this document I've handed you as a letter that you wrote on October 9, 1943? A Co I recognize this? 0 Yes, sir. A No, I don't. I've forcctten ail about it. Q Now that you've seen it, Cr. Kelly, is this a letter you wrote to Don Irish at one Dow Chemical Company on October 9, 1943? A Yes, sir. Q I'd like todirect your attention to the first Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. . Nationwide Co\erase ;j:-347-37oo S00-336-oo4b 410-6t>4-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062764 C 1 ' paragraph, Dr. Kelly, the second sentence. You say v'one 2 large user of styrene, and I don't believe it is our 3 styrene either, has asked me to testify as an expert 4 witness i n the case of an employee who is a ileging permanent disabilit y because of inhaling th is compound." 6 Do you see that, Dr . Kelly? 7 A Yes, sir. n Q Does that refresh your memory you did test ifv on Q the styrene case in the late 1940s? :o A I must have. I know I never test ifiea or gave a i 1 deposition in it. It doesn't refresh much of my memory cr. 12 it. 13 Q You don't doubt that it happened? 14 A Oh, no, 1 'm sure it happened. -- '4 And the second paragraph, couid 2 ask you - <*h 1 6 read the second paragraph of the letter, Dr . Kelly. - > "The second point is that I am to write a first 13 draft of the medica 1 section on styrene for the MCA safety 1 9 data sheet on this product. " - ^ w Does that refresh your memory at 2 Dr. Kelly, 21 that you wrote at 1 east part of the safety data sheet on stvrene for the MCA? Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202*347-3700 800-336-t>t>4<j 410*4)84-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062765 .4J No, it doesn't, and I don't know really why was talked into it. ioesn ' t really. Q As we sit here today, you can't remember one way or the other? A i can't rememoer. Q Dr. Kelly, do you remember that styrene was used in food packaging materials? A In what? Q In toco packaging materials. ' o A Polystyrene, yes, sir. Q And Monsanto manufactured polystyrene for use in food packaging? 13 A Yes . Q Do you remember in 1961 there was a concern raised about the residual styrene monomer present in that food packaging material? A I don't remember it off the too mv r.eaa, r.o, si: MR. MC DONNELL: Let me shew you a document Dr. Kelly, which we will mark as Kelly Exhibit 12. (Keiiy Exhibit 12 identified. BY MR. MC CONNELL: Ace-Federal Reporters, I\c. Nationwide Coverage :L'2-34r-"-:n SOO-336-oo4 410-664-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062766 4223.3 b z Q. O 3 10 il 1 ^_L Z. ' *3 -^ Q Do you recognize this, Dr. Kelly, as a memo you eceived from Mr. 3.W. Ingle? A Yes, I do. Q It's dated April 5, 196i? A Yes, sir. Q Who was Mr. Ingle? A He was in the research department or the eveiopment department of our Springfield, Massachusetts iant of Monsanto, wnicn was the plastic oivision of tre ompanv. Q Mr. Ingle was a Monsanto employee? A Yes, that's correct. Q And he's talking in this memo about the olvstvrene task force. What was the polvstvrene task tree, dc you know? A I don't know. 1 It goes on to say "After some months of work a tatement has been developed which indicates that residuatyrene monomer is the only parameter to be specifiea. In coition I. ~5 percent has been tentatively fixed as the coer limit for residual styrene monomer. There remains, ewever, some feeiina that the toxicoloav of styrene has Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \ationwiae Coveraee 2J2*34/*3/00 SOO-336-ck>46 410-684-2i,rCl WATER_PCB-SD0000062767 ( V* 135 been inadequately defined to document the safety of -such a widely used polymer." Does that refresh your memory that there was a concern about the styrene monomer in these food packaging materials ? K A Yes, I think so, yes, sir. Q And do you recall that Mr. Ingle was asking you whether you thought additional studies ought to oe performed on styrene monomer? 10 A Yes, sir. 1 ' Q Do you remember whether Monsanto conducted those 12 studies ? 13 A Whether they -- Q Whether Monsanto conducted those studies in A. Well, it really was -- Monsanto was not the one to conduct them. It was a grcuo cf styrene manufacturers that was supposed to get a collaborative investigation cf it. To the best of mv recollection, that was never done. I think they concluded from the extraction studies that there was no oartiouiar hazard involved because 22 polystyrene film is, by and large, a rigid type of plastic Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. X.-uionwiae Coverage 2J2-347-3700 s00-336-oo4b 410-684-2r:>0 WATER PCB-SD0000062768 135 rather than a film like you put around meat or flexible, thin type of film. This is a solid, sort of like a box CaJ type of material that you use. I don't think it was ever 4 done. 5 Q And the reason it was never done is that you 5 determined that noneof thestyrene monomer could get into 7 the food? 3 A Either that or the EDA decided that there was no 9 hazard mvoivec. I really think the bail was in their 10 court, was the EDA to make their mind up about it. 11 Q Do you believe the EDA would have tolerated any 12 migration of the styrene monomer into the food? 13 A- It would have- tolerated some. 14 Q Do you think they would have required safety 15 studies on that before allowing it? 15 A Weil, that was our common practice with 1" unintentional food additives from elastics, and I think 13 they woui d have done one same w I'cr. styrene being ' Q extracted from polystyrene. But as I sav , I den't recall 1> O what they did, except the fac t that Z do not remember t.tis 11 errouo in general, Monsanto in parti ouiar, doing any 22 further s tudv. I think there ' s an error here because the Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 S00-336~oo4t> 410-684-2t?0 WATER PCB-SD0000062769 nj t * t> w> no - I O l U i . I - u 137 statement that in inhalation work there was two or ' three-week stuff and fairly good sized doses cf -- what was it -- 1 gram per kilo or something like that, 30 days work of. There was a certain amount of oral studies done bv Insn. Q That's' the 194 2 study that you and I looked at before? A That's correct. 2 In his memo Mr. Ingle is talking about two ro l~ * O different kinds of studies. One type is a 90-dav study? A Well, he was hoping if they had to do it, they could get away with that rather than a two-year study. Q And in fact, he says "certainlythe shorter-term studies would be far less expensive than the latter. 1 A No question about that. 2 Was that an important question to you, whether you had to do a 90-dav study or two-year study? . A You would settle the issue. A two-year study takes three years to do, by the time you set up the parameters, by the time you have the two years, by the time you have the animals examined microscopically, so 22 it's three vears before vou cet the reDort. And the 90 a > - l U \ i n .1.*. u Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coveraee 202-347-3700 S00-336-6b4o 410-6>4-25t0 WATER PCB-SD0000062770 128 days, you get: it ever 100 days, 110 days anc the cost is probably a 20th. So it's important. Q And that was an important consideration to you m deciding whether to conduct that study? A Weil, it was -- no, because it was import ant but when you' re dealing with the FDA, they make t he rul es and it doesn' t matter to them c you say well, we ' --e cc ing to spend -- these rules are going to cost us SI 00,000. The FDA will say well, that's tough. That's wnat you nave to do, so you don't argue with them about it. MR. MC CONNELL: Let me show you another document which we can mark as Kelly Exhibit 13. (Kelly Exhibit 13 identified.; 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: 1 Is this your response to Mr. Ingle on the question we've been talking about, Or. Kelly? i Yes, sir, it is. C It's a memo from you dated April 11, 1951? A That's correct. 1 You start out by saying "Certainly I think if we tcuid cet ail the manufacturers to do a decent 90-cay test on styrene monomer, it wouldn't cost us very much. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 S00-33o-oo4t> 410-t>&4-2:>20 WATER PCB-SD0000062771 A That's correct. - Q And you go on to say it "night satisfy the Foot and Drug Administration"? A Yes, sir, but I also say we'd have to go out and talk to the FDA beforehand. Q You'd have to negotiate with them on what type of study you had to do? A ' This is what we think is needed. What do you think about it? Ana they might sav negative or yes, go ahead. Q Would you look at the top of page 2 of this memo, Dr. Kelly. You quote a long passage from a book called "Detoxification Mechanisms," but I'm really just interested in the first sentence. Would you read that for A "Styrene phenvlethylene appears to be more toxic man ethylbenzene and differs from it in its metabolism. Q Styrene is more toxic than ethylbenzene? > That 's what the Will lams text talks about. That was information you had available to you A Yes, sir. ' - Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. \ationwiae Coverage 1J2-347-3700 S00-336-oo46 410-684-2330 WATER_PCB-SD0000062772 140 Q And was it: an accurate statement:?. A Pardon? Q Was it an accurate statement at that time? A Let me finish reading it. Q Certainly. A Weil, yes, I don't exactly see where the basis of his statement, "appears to be more toxic than etrvibenzene, 1 how much more or -- he doesn't even give any oasis for the statement, per se, than it is more toxi: than ethylbenzene. Maybe it was in some other part of 11 that textbook of his. Gerarde is a well known 12 investigator. 13 Q If he made that statement, would you give that seme credit? ive it some create cu: nave a .e of caveats about his evidence, but I don't know He mav have -- this mav have referred to the paragr: 13 ar.eaa But vou did decide to cuote that in vour resoonse to Mr. Incle, vou? As far as vou know,. Monsanto didn't do any Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coveraae 1)2-347-3700 s00-336-on46 410-bt>4-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000062773 u 14 1 further studies at that time? 2 A As far as I knew, Monsanto did net do any by 3 itself or participate in any group study. I do not know - 4 I feel quits sure that no group study was done. 5 Q Did Monsanto use toluene and benzene at the VO Texas City plant? - A Did they use -- 3 Toluene and benzene. 5 A Yes, sir. They used benzene a treat deal, 10 Whether they separated toluene from benzene, I don' t knew 11 if they stripped off the toluene and sold it o r used it a 12 some pro cess which I don't recall at present. It was 13 around t here . 14 o 'mi Is it true that very Isrcs strnounzs o f benzene I - were use a in the Texas City pla ri ^ y 1 5 A Oh, yes, lots and lots. And would there also have been large amounts cf toluene ? A I don't know that exactly. I don't know that. 2 You fust don't know one way or the other? A That's correct. 2 Is toluene a toxic material? Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \cUionwiae Co\ erase 2J2-347-3700 500-336-oo4o 4 10-664-2d50 WATER PCB-SD0000062774 1 A Again, ar.v industrial compound is toxic, I 2 mean, even aspirin is toxic. Id depends on your 3 definition. Even salt is toxic. So it is, under that 4 broad, generic definition. Toluene can ce cailec toxic 5 but I would say it's only moderately toxic as an 6 industrial compound is concerned. - ' w There were other things at the Texas City plan' Q that vers more toxic? 9 A Th, yes, certainly. 10 But toluene is moderately toxic? 11 A Is not what? 12 W Is it moderately toxic? i_ 2 n A By my definition, I would say yes. 1 4 at And you knew that in the 1950s? 1- A Vac S . 1 5 There were scientific rsDorts in the 1950s tha - indi cated that exposure to toluene could cause chronic 1 3 tolu era ^ oisoning? 2 A I'm net so sure about that. I know that it -- r\ woui d cause immediate nervous symptoms. Ecu wou_c get a toluene ;aa much like the beginning of alccnci intoxication. Whether it caused -- it did not cause Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \<Uiom\iue Coveraee 2J2-34"-?700 S00-3?o-oo46 110-6b4-235C' WATER PCB-SD0000062775 143 leukemia like benzene and was not as ;ar as aplastic anemia which was attributed to benzene. Q So benzene caused leukemia? A Yes, sir. Q Ana benzene caused aplastic anemia? A In sufficient doses, yes, sir, and I probably would have to say it's definitely known in the causes of chronic mvelogenous, m-y-e-l-o-g-e-n-o-u-s, leukemia, cut net c.oror.ic iympnatic leukemia. Q What's the difference in the two kinds of leukemia ? A It depends on which of the cells proliferates, the leukocytes or the lymphocytes. Q Both kinds of leukemia are forms ofcancer? A They' re both rr.alicnant changes. lancer is usually not a term that's used for leukemias, althougn it's a serious illness, but it's amenable to treatment mucr. more than other forms of cancer is concerned, so I don't think it can be equated as a cancer. Q It's often fatal? A What? Q It's often fatal? . Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coveraee 132-347-3700 400-336-oo4o 410*684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062776 1 A Ch, yes, certainly. _ 2 Q How treataole was it in the 195Cs, Dr. Kelly? 3 A Not very treatable. I don't know when the good 4 chemotherapeutic agents came into play, but it was around 5 that time cr a little later. 6 MR. MC CONNELL: Let me show you a document, 7 Dr. Kelly, which we will mark as Kelly Exhibit 14. 3 (Kelly Exhibit 14 identified. 9 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: 10 *: Is this a memo that you received from C.L. 11 Gilmore in 1958? 12 A Yes, it is. 13 Q And who was Mr. Gilmore? 14 A Safety manager at the Monsanto plant at Texas s City. 1 5 It's dated February 25, 1958? ' - A Yes, sir. 13 And he says "One of the units at the plant is planning on the use of toluene in a process which may CJ> involve cersonnei to be working in an atmosphere containing toluene'? 22 A Yes, sir. . Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \ationwiae Coserace 202-347-3700 sOO-33d-oo4o -t]0-684-2co0 WATER PCB-SD0000062777 145 Q The workers might be exposed to toluene? A Yes, sir. Q In the second paragraph he goes on to say "From the various references available to us, it would seem that a maximum working concentration would be 200 parts per million.' Is that right, Dr. Kelly? A That's what it says here. Q And he goes on to say "However, these same references make references to chronic toluene poisoning which apparently produces blood changes." A Well, he doesn't say "references." He says "inferences . " Q I'm sorry, my copy is very hard to read. Is that "inferences"? A "Inferences . ' Q Why don't we start ever, then. "However, these same references make inferences to chronic toluene poisoning which apparently produces blood changes." Mr. Gilmore brought this to your attention in 1958? A Yes, sir. Q Do you remember what those blood changes were.A No. It probably came from Sax and I don't Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 300-336-eo46 410-684-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000062778 .10 believe it's been accepted that chronic toluene poisoning causes blood change. It's certainly not similar at all to benzene. .Q Whether it's similar to benzene or net, Mr. Gilmore seems to think it caused blood changes; is 0 that correct, sir? A Weil, yes, but G don't understand -- I don accept Mr,. Gilmore as an authority on blood changes toiusns, :o 2 He was Monsanto's safety director at the Texas city piant.' A That's correct. (O Q And if Sax said the toluene exposure caused blood changes, you just don't accept that? A That's correct. I don't know _f Gilmore is quoting Sax, but that seems to be his bible. 2 Tic you know Sax? A Tid I know him? No. He was an industrial hygienist someoiace. He was someone who just ccmpilec a bunch of references and wrote the book. 2 You were familiar with Sax back at that time in the 1350s? . Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. \cinonwide Coverage 202-347-3700 500-336-o46 410-684-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000062779 14? A Yes, sir. i MR. MC CONNELL: Or. Kelly, let .Tie show you a document which we will mark as Kelly Exhibit 15. (Kelly Exhibit 15 identified,; 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: Q Or. Kelly, this was a document that was produced by Monsanto in this litigation. It seems to be an excerpt from a longer document and there's a section here on toluene. Oo you see that? A Yes, sir. Q There's a section on the first page we have called "Toxicity and Hazards." A The first page says what? Q There's a section 3 called "Toxicity and Hazards" under toluene? A Yes, sir. Q I'd like to go ever some of the statements here and find out whether you agree with them. A First, I don't know -- I don't know -who wrote this or what's the date on it or anything about it. C Nor do I, Cr. Kelly, because this seems to oe the form, we got it in. , Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 2J2-347-3700 n)0-336-oo46 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062780 148 Okav. And I don't think that matters for creser ourooses. A Okay. Q Under the "Toxicity and Hazards" section there are a number of statements, Dr. Kelly. One of them is this: "Toluene has an acute narcotic effect comparable : that of benzene but lacks the cor.vuisant effect of the latter. Do you agree with that statement? A I'd have to look it up in an authoritative toxicological text. It's probably correct, but I can't say I agree with it without knowing more about it. Q It says "Unconsciousness appears earlier in toluene than in benzene poisoning." Is that right, Dr. Kelly? A I think that's true. Q And was that known back in the 1940s and 1950s? A I believe so. Q It goes on to say "The subacute or chronic toxicity of toluene is consideracly less than that or benzene due at least in cart to its difrerence m volatility. " Do you agree with that? Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverace 221*347-3700 SOO-336-oo4o 410-d84-2o^0 WATER PCB-SD0000062781 542 jb iI nV il Q 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q It goes on to say that 'Toluene may enter the 3 body by inhalation, ingestion or absorption through the 4 skin and mucus membranes." Do you agree with that? 5 A I'd have to check on how easily it is absorbed 6 through the skin. Q Do you believe it is absorbed through the skin? 3 A I don't know. I said I'd have to check it. O '* Q Is it true that toluene may enter the body by 10 1 11 1 12 1 13 1 innaiati on and ingestion? A No question. Yes. Q And you knew that back in the 1940s and 1950s? A Yes, sir. 14 Q It goes on to say, Dr. Kelly, that 'toluene 13 exerts a similar but stronger irritant- action on t he ski 15 and mucu s membranes than benzene. Dermatitis may result _ y from its drying and defatting action on the skin." Do y 18 agree wi th that? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 * Was that known in the 1940s and 1950s? 21 You mean in general? 22 'ML Was it known to you? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 SG0-336-oo4o 410-0^4-2^50 WATER PCB-SD0000062782 150 A Yes, it was. , Q It goes or. to say toluene can cause considerable aamaoe :c the eve tissue.' Do vou aaree w t.tat. A Yes, sir. g Was that known in the 1940s and ' 50s 7 > Yes, sir. * Lex's skip ever to the next page. It talks aocur efftacts dnei c. n e d 0 y s d secoi_cn 2d.Del.0ci dcuus. 2 you see o;aat, Dr. Kelly? A Yes . Q It says "exposure to high concentrations of toluene rsssults in headache, vomiting and disturbance c e c u i.' ' O IT' \urn. 1 Do you agree with that? < Was that known in the 1340s and 135Cs? A Yes, sir. * Known to you and Monsanto? >Ti Yes, sir. 2 It goes on to sav Loss of consciousness is c rarely encountered. Men exocsed to 300 parts per mill for three days develooed severe nervousness, muscular Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Aationwiae Coverage 222-347-5770 >00-336-o4o 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062783 in 'o 54222 b fatigue, extreme r.ausea and insomnia which persisted for severai days. They exhibited mental confusicr., loss cf self-control, lack cf muscular coordination and impairment cf visual accommodation. Similar but less pronounced findings were encountered following exposure to lower concentrations." Do you agree with that? A Yes, sir. 2 Was that known to you rack in tne 1940s and 1950s? n A Yes, sir. i > Q Monsanto knew about that at that time? i. z A Yes, sir. i i Q The next section is called "Chronic. It goes on to sav 'long-continued or repeated exposure to toluene is followed by headache, giddiness, insomnia, nervous irritability and inability to work. Loss cf appetite, nausea and vomiting are noted." Do you agree with that? A I'm not sure about the loss cf appetite, nausea and vomiting. I would have to - 2 You'd have to check or. that part of it? A Yes, sir. 2 Do vou aaree with the rest of it? Ace-Federal Reporters, L\rc. nationwide Coverace 202-347-3700 ">00-336--oo46 410-684-2:'rd WATER PCB-SD0000062784 A Yes sir. Anc t"at was know-- :: vou in one 19 4Cs anc 1950s? A res, sir. Q It goes cn oo say "Intolerance oo alcohol is pronounced and is. sufficiently characteristic of coluer.e poisoning to be considered of diagnostic importance. Nosebleeds and heart tains nav be encountered. Do you agree with that? A Oh, I'm not sure of the evidence for that. That I'd have to -- Q You'd have to check on that part? A Yes, that's correct. Q Let's talk about the next part, Dr. Kelly. 'Chronic toluene poisoning, like benzene poisoning, crcduces blccc changes. Toluene poisoning differs from cer.zer.e coisonina, however, in the absence of extreme changes. ' Do you agree with that? A I don't know because he doesn't sav what the blood chances are. If he's talking about a very mild anemia, that could be one thine. If he's talking about aplastic anemia, he's wrong. -So I don't know what he's Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. \ationwiae Coverage 1.0-347-3700 >00-336-0046 410-684-2350 WATER PCB-SD0000062785 153 talking about, but I can't agree with that statement. He qualifies it and says it differs from benzene poisoning ir. the absence of extreme changes, so he's got statements ir. there that only he knows what he's talking about and I don't believe I could agree with it without knowing more about what evidence he has. All I can say is that from an industrial point of view, toluene is a much less of a treeiem t.na.n cenzene. 0 Benzene is a problem? A Well, it could be a problem, yes. Q Did Monsanto monitor workers who were exposed toluene and benzene in the plants? A They did of the benzene workers. I do not believe that we monitored the toluene workers. It deoenaed on tne air levels cf the benzene. We monitors' tr.e work ing environment and we also monitored the blood Isvsls, the urinarv levels cf cnenois with the benzene workers. We did that. We did not do that with toluene workers. MR. MC DONNELL: Let me show you, Or. Kelly, wnat we will mark as Kelly Exhibit 15 ;Kelly Exhibit 15 identified. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 2J2-347-3700 M)0-336-o4t5 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062786 154 3Y MR. M.C CONNELL: Or. Kelly, do you recognize this as etter vou wrote !r. A. 3. Treoitz in 1959 ? A 1 oo r.ow. 1 cran'd rememoer anytr.mg about it until you showed me this. \o Q 3ut you remember it now? A Yes, sir. 0 Ana it's datec September 18,1939? a fV o c s L~ 10 Q Mr. Treoitz was at the Vickers Petroleum 1 1 Company? 12 A Yes, sir. 13 Q And why were you writing to Mr. Trebitz? A He obviousiv got communication with me asking wnat we tic dor periodic examinations on workers with benzene and toluene. Whether he wrote to me as a ohvsician for a suooiier -- 1 don't know if this man was a 13 customer of ours for -- we obviously wrote asking about xviene and 1 told him we -- we didn't even make it. Anc as far as toluene and benzene are concerned, I do not know whether he wrote to me as a Monsanto employee or a memoer of the Manufacturina Chemists Association. Sometime when Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. nationwide Co\ erase !.)2-347-"no 300-336-oo4t> 410-684-2350 WATER PCB-SD0000062787 (M 155 I was on that committee people would write into the MCA and they would give it down to me or some other member of the committee. Q Would you read the first sentence of the second paragraph, Dr. Kelly? . A "With toluene and benzene, we examine workers yearly and do a complete blood count, including smear." Q What did you mean, Dr. Kelly, by 'we examine workers yearly"? :o A We examined them once a year. Q Did they get a complete physical examination? 12 A Yes, sir, but I'm not sure that we did with toluene as much as with benzene. An awful lot of times workers were exposed to both toluene and benzene. I don't remeirrer if we had individuals just exposed to toluene, per se, and I would doubt if we would give tnem a yearly examination if they were not exposed to benzene along with the toluene. Z But your letter does say "With toluene and benzene, we examine workers yearly"? A Yes, sir. L. 4. Z Ana it goes on to sav that you do a complete Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage -J2-347-3700 >00-33o-oo46 410-cxj4-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062788 1 bleed count, including smear. ' What, does that mean-, : Dr. Kelly? 2 A Smear is a differential look at the blood 4 ce__s . You see the characteristic of the biooo cells. In 5 a blood count you just count them. In a smear you look at 5 the character of the blood cells and whether there's any abnormal proportion in any of the individual components of 3 the blood , the van ous lymphocytes, leukocytes, et cetera. Is it to determine whether there are any yj abnormal or chanced biood ceils? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q You go on to say here, Dr. Kelly, "In addition 13 we carry cut an interval complete biood count on our 14 benzene workers so that these workers receive a blood 15 count every six months. In addition, we carry cut urine 15 sulfate tests on our benzene workers." What are urine 1" su.fate tests, Dr. Kelly? IS A It has to do with the ratio of conjugated 13 sulfates in the urine. In addition, it referenced in II comparison to the unccnjugated. I don't know the details 11 of it now but that was a test used for a while and carried 12 out examination of the onencis in biood as a more delicate Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 >00-336-oo46 410-684-2dd0 WATER PCB-SD0000062789 test, so I guess this fell out sometime in I960. r Q In 1959 when you wrote this letter, you knew that benzene was an extremely toxic material? A Weil, again, you're using a tern extremely toxic." It's a toxic material. There's probably billions of pounds of the'stuff made every year and used every year ana it is not in the same ballpark as hydrogen cyanide but it _ s more toxic -- I would say it's a toxic compound, not hicr.iy toxic like cyanide would be, but mors toxic than toluene is, certainly. Q And you knew that long-term exposure would cause aplastic anemia? A In a sufficient amount. There was -- the ocvernmer.t had set various safe levels. I don't knew w.oat the levs, was in 1959, out I think it was around 110 parts per million, something along there, and then they dreppeo it to 50 and then they dropped it to 10, and I think they were talking about dropping it to one by the time I left Monsanto. So it was a toxic compound. Q No secret? A I beg your pardon? q Mo secret? * Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. 102-347-3700 Nationwide Coveraee t00-336-oo4o 410-684~2jr0 WATER PCB-SD0000062790 158 Mo what? It wasn't a secret? Oh, no. Anc it causes leukemia? A Benzene? Q Yes, sir. A It can cause leukemia in sufficient dose And you knew chat at the time? PflUS0 . . MR. MC CONNELL: Dr. Kelly, let me ask you to look at a document which we'll mark as Kelly Exhibit I"', (Kelly Exhibit 17 identified.) BY MR..MC CONNELL: 1 This is a memo from W.R. Skinner to J.H. Kernan. It's dated July 25, 1947, and if you'll look 1: the utter richt-hand corner, there's a list of names anc R.E. Xeilv is one Loose names? ies, sir. Lois a memo vou received a cotv of back .es, sir Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Yationwiae Cov erage COC-347-3700 j00-336-oo4o 410-6t>4-2.?30 WATER PCB-SD0000062791 159 Q Who was W.R. Skinner? A W.R. who? Q W.R. Skinner. A I don't know who he was. Q In any event, thisis a memo about benzene A Yes. 2 .And the first sentence says ".Answering our inquiry about the toxioity of benzene ana how :o deal with - r>js _t, Dr. R.E. Kelly stated that among other precautionary 1 1 steps, 'medical control by blood counts and urine tests' should be considered." 13 A Yes, sir. 1 And is that an accurate statement of the measures vou were taking in the late 194Cs regarding benzene exposure? A Yes, sir. Q Further down it says "It seems oest that the medical department be prepared to make such tests and at such intervals as are necessary to detect a tendency to ohrcnic benzene poisoning, and also be prepared to deal with oases of acute ocisonincr-- as well. " And mv question Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coveraae 202-347-3700 500-336-6646 410-664-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062792 15 0 r you is, did th> ses c f benzene C' A No, we nniever had it. We prevented it. w You were , +- 0 A Yes, sir rW* And you ' e wor kers ? .n. Well, we die vorx r.arc out we toox :rtoer SCSU2 denary step Q And the ' ve b een talking 4 0s? A Yes, sir 1C What is A Same as The same A Yes, sir Dif f ere.n A Yes, sir differer.tiv in the United States than the United Kingdom MR. MC DONNELL: Let me show you a document which we'll mark as Kelly Exhibit 13. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 102*34/ -3700 s00-336-oo4b 410-684-2220 WATER PCB-SD0000062793 - b 161 1 (Kelly Exhibit 13 identified. - 2 BY MR. MC CONNELL: 3 0 Is this a memo that you 'received from Robert 0. 4 Sutr.eriana in 1946? 5 A Yes, sir, it is. 6 Q It's dated May 20, 1946? 7 A Yes, sir. 3 Q Who was Robert 0. Sutherland? 9 A I haven't the slightest idea. It says he was a 10 safety engineer for the Reconstruction Finance 11 Corporation, which was an agent for Monsanto Chemical 12 Company in Texas City. 13 Q Do you know what the Reconstruction Finance 14 Corpora cion was? -- A NO , ,i -- 1 5 * And if you read the letterhead at the top, it - savs "Monsantc Chemical Company, agent for Reconstruct!; 13 Finance Core. " 1 9 A Yes, sir, I read that. Q .Ana do you know what the relationship was 2 cetween Monsanto and the Reconstruction Finance Core, at that time? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverace 112-347-3700 ;00-336-oo4o 410-684-2arC WATER PCB-SD0000062794 342 b 152 1 _ A We were their agent, but I don't know what els' 71 that means. 3 Q Would you read the first sentence of that, 4 2r, Kelly. A "We have been running blood counts on all our 6 lab personnel to'check on the absorption of benzol fumes / and the tests have shown that the hemoglobin was low on '3 a all testec with the exception of three. Q What would it mean to you if the hemoglobin 10 counts were low cn those employees after the exposure to 11 benzol? 12 A It could mean a lot of different things. How 13 low was it? What's the percentage? Three out of how _ t many? 2id he have 20 people where their hemoglobin was low? It could be from the action of benzene. It could o\ 15 from one loss of blood. I don't know if these were females or males or if they had another reason to have a 13 low hemoglobin. So it was just something that had to oe investigated. 20 2 He goes on to say "Our principal hazard in the lao is from benzol fumes which are contained in ail our 22 materials such as styrene, ethylbenzene, polyethvibenzol Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coveraee i 1 202-347-3700 300-336-oo46 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062795 15 3 et cetera." Is that an accurate statement? ' A I don't know -- no, I don't think sc.. I don't know what he means by saying benzol fumes are contained in all our materials such as styrene. Maybe there's a small percentage of benzene residual in styrene, but I don't know what the exposure would be, what -- the lab people as a rule do not get a great deal of exposure. They work under hoods and other laboratory apparatus. So I don't know what he means by that's the hazard. Q He goes on to ask you to contact the plant physician, Dr. Manske? A Yes , sir. Q Do you remember doing that? * I' m sure I did, but I don't remember You don't remember wna t the fcilow-u was ' No, sir. 47 years age? I don't remember. MR. MC DONNELL: Why don't we take five. (Recess. , 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: Or. Kellv, we're all back now. Do you recall -hat, a tie earlier vou and"I had some discussions about Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverase 202-347-3700 S00-336-oo4o 410-oi>4-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062796 -04 the acetviene soot at the Monsanto Texas City plant?* A Ves , s ir . % C .Ana you couldn't rememoer when we talked vnet.ter there had been some evidence that there were polynuclear aromatic compounds contained in that soot; is that right, sir? A No -- well, no, I think it was established that there was some, but I thought the discussion was whet.oer or net it was a possible carcinogen. Q And you remember it was established that there were polynuclear aromatics contained in the soct? A I'm not really sure. MR. MC CONNELL: Why don't we do this: I'll shew you a document, Dr. Kelly, which we will mark as Eelly Exhibit 19. Kelly Exhibit 19 identified. 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: 0 Dr. Kelly, this is a latter from Jack Carrett to Mr. Joseph Houghton, H-o-u-g-h-t-o-n. Your name doesn't appear on this document, Dr. Kelly, but I would draw your attention to the second oaragraoh of the letter. .And by the way, this is dated December 9, 1958; is that correct, Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \aciomviae Coveraee 2J2-347-3700 >00-336-0046 4l0-oo4-2cr'j WATER PCB-SD0000062797 5 4 2 2! ib sir 7 - A Yes, sir. Q .And Mr. Garrett was working on your staff at that time in the medical department? A Yes, sir. _ Q The second paragraph of the letter, Mr. Garrett says "While discussing the acetylene soot problem with Mr. Rotcier, who supervises this group of departments, the acetylene polymer problem was brought up. There is a 10 possibility that if there are polynuclear aromatic 11 hydrocarbons in the soot, some of these compounds are also 12 in the acetylene polymer." Does this refresh your memory 13 that by 1958 it had been established that there were polynuclear aromatics in the acetylene soot? A Mo, sir. Thev don't say it was estaoiisneo. They say there's a possibility that if there are polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons, some of these are also in the acetviene coivmer. So if there weren't any in the soot, there wouldn't be any in the polymer, so it's ;ust a possibility. MR. MC CONNELL: Let's take a look at a document that we will mark as Kelly Exhibit 20. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. 232-347-3700 Nationwide Coveraee '-|V)-336-oo46 *10-684-2350 WATER PCB-SD0000062798 -00 (Kelly Exhibit 20 identified. 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: Do you have that in front of you now, sir? T:es , I dc . r*\ This is a memo from M.L. Owens to R.J. Schatz? Yes, sir. Q Did you know those men, sir? Did I know - XL Did you know them at the time? No, not those two. Q This is a memorandum dated January 19, 1959? A Yes, sir. And if you'll look in the column in the upper corner, a copy apparently went to Jack Garrett A - e s, sir. J And Jack Garrett was working in your mecical department at the time? A That's correct. Q If we could look at paragraph 1, the memorancum says Incomplete combustion of gaseous fuels, including acetviene, forms condensed ociynuclear hydrocarbons. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coveraee 202-347-3700 ti00-33b-bt>4b 410-bS4-2;r0 WATER PCB-SD0000062799 5 4 2 23 . 16" Those found fairly conclusively in the work of references 4 and 5 (Tebbensi included 3,4-benzpyrene and 1,2,5,5-dibenzanthracene which are known to be carcinogenic.'' Do you see that, Dr. Kelly? A Yes, sir, I see it. Q And do you remember knowing that at the time? A I don't remember whether I knew it or not. Q If you'll look at the second paragraph, the memorandum says .Any extensive analytical work on Department 13 soot will without doubt in my mind find some 3,4-benzpvrene. The definition of 'some' is the hooker in 12 this whole problem. Houghton says the presence of 13 benzpyrene from his lab work can be suspected. I think he has shown is oresent." Do vou see that, Dr. Kellv? las, si Die Mr. uarrett ever ormc vour attention rack in the 1950s? A Let me finish the caragraoh. Q Do ahead and take your time, too. A Yes, sir. Q My question is simply whether Mr. Darrei discussed this matter with vou back in the 1950s. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. 202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverase 300-336-6046 410-684-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000062800 168 A I don't remember whether he did cr not. 3 As we're sirring here today, you can't remember one wav or the other? A That's correct. 3 You don't remember what Monsanto was ccing with its acetylene soot from the Texas City plant at the time? A I don't remember. 3 Do you remember at any time what Monsanto did with me acetylene soot ircm the plant? A I remember there was a great deal -- not a great deal, but there was considerable discussion about the acetylene soot and presence or absence of any carcinogenic products in it, but I have no clear recollection of what was done, what we established one way or the ether. 3 That was handled by Mr. Garrett? A I beg your pardon? 3 That was handled by Mr. Garrett? A Yes, . think so. 3 Dr. Kelly, do you remember in the 1350s there were some questions that came up about benzene that was contained in polyethylene manufactured by Monsanto? A You don't mean oolvstvrene? Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \anomviae Coverage :::-34r-3700 >00-336-<*>46 410-684-2330 WATER PCB-SD0000062801 54 1 b 153 Q No, sir. - A Maybe the memorandum will refresh me. MR. MC CONNELL: Let me show you a document that we'll mark as Kelly Exhibit 21. (Kelly Exhibit 21 identified.; o BY MR. MC CONNELL: Q Is this a memo that you received from John Fox a - Qe5? A Yes, it is. 10 Q And Mr. Fox is the gentleman at rhe Monsanto 11 Texas City plant that we discussed earlier today? 12 A Yes, we discussed his position at Texas City. 13 Q He was the safety director? A No. He was -- Gilmore was the safety director. Fcx was research, oart industrial hygiene, part safety, 1 guess. I don't really know what his title was, but he was being some things in all those three areas. 13 Q The date on chis memo is May 25, 1953? A. Yes, sir. Q And the sucject is"Benzene inPolyethylene"? - A Yes, sir. L Z 0 Oo vou remember that Mr.Fox wrote vou to ask Ace-Federal Reporters, L\c. \ationwiae Coverage 202-347-3700 "i00-336-oo46 410-6S4-2350 WATER PCB-SD0000062802 170 for some information about the benzene contamination in polyethylene? A Do I remember that he asked me? Q Yes, sir. A Yes, sir. Q .And that polyethylene was going to be used for food packaging? A Yes, sir. Q He went on to say that at present the only available information they have is that the fresh unrefined pellets contain 400 to 500 parts per million of benzene and the refined pellets 50 parts per million? A That's what he says. Q And he goes on to say they have no information or. now much is left in the polymer after it passes througr. a moidinc machine but since the machine operates at 250 decrees oenticrade, there shouldn't be much benzene left. " A Yes, sir. Q And do you remember that was a problem that confronted Monsanto back in 1958? A Well, I don't remember how extensive the problem Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. \aciomvide Coveraee 202-547-3700 hOO-336-oo4o 410-684-2^50 WATER PCB-SD0000062803 ;422j ^ -b was or how it was solved. Were there any other memorandum of mine back to him? Q He goes on to say that "the unrefined product is axreaav on tne market. A That's what he says. Q Is that accurate? A I don't know. Q Do you have any reason to question it? A What? 10 Q Do you have any reason to question it? :i A No, I don't have any reason to distrust him, but 12 I can't cf my own knowledge say it's accurate or not. 13 Q He goes on to say their "question now is whether there is an acceptable limit already estabiishec fcr benzene in polyethylene. They are rather late recuesti.oo this information but thev needed to first :btain reliable information on the amount of benzene 13 C 2T 0 s n - . ' A That's what he says. 20 Q And he goes on to say "if refining is necessary to reduce the level to 50 parts per million, the oroduction cost will certainlv be increased. Any further Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverase 202-347-3700 S00-336-6o4o 410-684-2530 WATER PCB-SD0000062804 172 lowering would really get expensive. A Yes, sir. Q Was that true? A I don't know how -- obviously i i you' re going to do more r efining, the cost is going to go up. I don't know what he means by "really get expensi YQ I don't know what that means. Q Was there a concern at Monsanto about increasing the produ ction costs? A Well, I don' t knew. This is John Fox . This is not the manufacturing group. This is not the research group, and I don't know how to resolve the problem. Obviously, as he does say, if you put -- no matter how much benzene, 400 oarrs cer million in pellets, you subjected them to 250 decrees oar.ticrade, you're going to volatilize an awful lot. If there's any benzene in there, it's not gcinc to be remaining at the other end of the extrusion line, so it would appear the sensible thing would be to get some of the material that oomes out of a molding machine and see whetner there's any benzene left in it at that point rather than any pellets. 2 Would it be important to make sure there wasn't Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \<Kiomvicie Cuveraae :02-347-3700 >00-336-0046 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062805 -. J 1 any benzene left in the material that was going to be used for food packaging? A Any benzene, no. I think that the FDA has put 4 limits on sometime, I don't know when they did it, in food 3 packaging but down to a zero level is not necessary. u MR. MC CONNELL: Let's look at your answer to Mr. Fox. Let's mark this as Kelly Exhibit 22. 'Kelly Exhibit 22 identified., C 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: 0 Q Would you reaa that and tell me when you're n X finished, Dr. Kelly. 2 A Yes. Yes, sir. 3 Q Is this your memo to Mr. Fox regarding benzene -r in polyethylene? A Yes, sir. 1 It's dated June2, 1358? A Yes, sir. Let's look at the first paragraph, Or. Keuy. You say "First, a strict scientific answer to your n question as to 'the amount of benzene that can be safely left in polyethylene used in food packaging' would require extraction data. Even then the individual would have to Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 201-347-3700 500-33c*-oo46 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062806 -4c_j . ^ "b come out with an opinion which wou-d be more cr less an educated guess." A Yes, sir. 2 So you didn't really know with any certainty how much benzene would be left in the food packaging? A We're not healing with opinions. We're dealing with Food and Drug Administration thinking and if : were the individual, I'd have to come out with a more or less ecucated guess, depending on what the level was. If it was 1 cart per million in the food packaging, I would say forget about it. It's no problem. If it were more, that 12 may be get into the regulatory aspect. I don't know where 13 I came up with that a 10th cf a part per million that the FDA might be talking about. I just don't knew. 1 Let's read the next oaracrach. Wou_d vou reac mat for us, Dr. Kelly. A Which is the next one? * "You then ask. A "You then ask whether cr not there is any leve_ that would be acceptable. I cresume bv this you mean acceptable by the Food and Drug Administration. If any is _ i excractacie, the FDA would sav if more than a 10th cf a Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 222-347-3700 S00-336-6646 410-684-2350 WATER PCB-SD0000062807 3 4 2 i . yJ b 1 part per million came out, it would be unacceptable*" n Q Let me stop you there and ask a question. You 3 told Mr . Fox that the FDA would say it was unacceptable if 4 more r h a n a 10th of a part per mill.Ion came out of the 5 mate r i. a i ? 5 A That's what I told them. I do not know at che 7 present c ime what my basis for that statement was. 3 3tit that' s what you told :Ir. Fox in 1958? G A That's what 1 told him in 1958, yes. 10 Q Would you read the first sentence of the next 11 paragraph. 12 A "Now we can come down to being practical." 13 Q So you're putting aside what the FDA thinks and 14 you're calking about what's practical? 13 MR. BRAY: I object to that characterization. 15 MR. MC 30NNELL: Object to the coaching. You 17 car. answer . 13 MR. BRAY: What coaching are you talking about? 13 I object to the icischaracterizaticr. of what you said. 20 That's ail Isaid . 21 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: 2 2 Q You can answer, Dr,- Kelly. Do you need to hear Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. . Nationwide Coverage I 202-747-7700 800-336->4h 410-684-2350 WATER PCB-SD0000062808 176 the question again? - A I'd like to hear the question, yes, sir. MR. MC CONNELL: Read it back to him. 'The reporter read the record as requested.) THE WITNESS: Well, no. Certainly anything the FDA says is pretty practical because they're the ones who are in charge, but I go on to say if we have 400 parts per million in the refined pellets, which are then stored and come through a molding machine at 350 degrees 0, that would present no hazard to the ultimate user. But unfortunately, mine might be a strong vote if we're taking it up with the FDA because I feel sure any benzene not removed by molding at 350 degrees C would be so bound with cc1vethvlene it would not be removed bv contact with the 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: 0 Was it important,. Dr. Kell y, to make sure there wa s n't anv benzene ge11ir.a into the f ooc ? A It was imDcrzant to f ind c ut what levei would be getting into the food. '.Any" is not necessarily the right answer. Q And you went on to--say here, Dr. Kelly, Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coveraee -02-j-*/ 00 bQQ-3j6-6o4b 410-684-23^0 WATER PCB-SD0000062809 "Believing this and proving it are two different things so what we should do is keep still about any possible benzene contamination in polyethylene." Did you write that, Dr. Kelly? A Did I write it? Yes, I did. Q What did you mean, Dr. Kelly, when you said "what we should do is keep still about any possible benzene contamination in polyethylene"? A Yes, sir. Q What did you mean by that? II A Well, until we found out really what levels of 12 benzene contamination were present, we ought to keep still 13 about it. Maybe we've got a problem, but maybe we don't. We don't know anything about it. L You didn't tell the FDA? A I can't answer that. Now I don't know whether I cid or not. Whether I did or not, I don't know. Q You didn't tell your customers? A No, I did not. Q And in fact, you went on -- go ahead, Dr. Kelly. A 3ecause, in my belief, we did not have any ? 9 problem with safety with any rood that was packaged in Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwiae Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062810 3 4222 . C ;b 8 1 1 polyethylene that came through a molding machine at 2 50 2 degrees C. Q And you went on to say "I think cur salespeople T should be notified but certainly no one on the outside = should be told about it." 5 A Yes, sir, I said that. - Q To the best of your knowledge, Or. Kelly, is it 3 true th at no one on tine outside was told about it? 9 A I don't know. I don't know what developed after 10 March of 1 958. I don't know what else happened. Do you 11 have anymc re memoranda there on this matter? 12 Q You just don't remember? 13 A I don't remember. 1 4 V-N You don't remember going to the EDA tc talk with ; "hem ab out *3 h i. s ? 1 5 A I don't remember going. I don't believe I went, - h u" "he T-a certai.oiv mav be correspondence with the FDA. 1 3 rV' Can you rememoer any correspondence with the FCA 1 3 as we s it here todav? -- r\ a 1 don't remember. 21 MR. MC CONNELL: Let me show you a document, 2 2 Or. Kelly, which we will mar3c as Kelly Exhibit 23. Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. 232-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage .vi00-336-oo4t> 410-t>64-2350 WATER PCB-SD0000062811 I -i i. l. 1 . (Keilv Exhibit 23 identified.; ,, 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: Q Is this a memo that you got from John L. Tuiev 5 4? A I can't make out the date, but it is March the 5th, something. On my copy it looks like March 4, 1964. Mine is March the 5th --oh, I see. MR. ELQRIG: You're lookina in two different :o iaces . BY MR. MC CONNELL: Oh, there's a stamped date, which is not very legible. In fact, I can barely see it on my copy and there's a typewritten date on the left. A I wasn't seeir.c that. Yes, that's correct, Subiect is Toxicitv of Benzene"? Vac * 3 i.IT . 2 Who was Mr. Tuiev? A Safety supervisor at the Long Beach plant of tne Monsanto Company. Q .And without reading- it ail, Dr. Kelly, Mr. Tuiev Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 cQO-336-6646 410-664-2c 50 WATER PCB-SD0000062812 A I 1 advised you chat they anticipated using benzene in a 2 process starting up at the Long Beach plant? 3 A Yes, sir. -t V And he askea your advice about benzene toxicity A Yes, sir. 5 Q Do you remember your response to Mr. Tulev? - A No, 1 don't remember it. 3 MR. MC CONNELL: Let me show you a document the' 3 we'11 mark as Rally Exhibit 24. 10 (Kelly Exhibit 24 identified. . 11 BY MR. MC CONNELL: 12 Q Is this your letter back to Mr. Tulev? 13 A Yes, it is . . : 4 Q Dated March 10, 1964? 15 A Yes, sir. 15 -D You provided him some information about benzene - toxicity? 13 A I beg your pardon? Q V'"N You orovideo Mr. Tulev with some information 20 about benz ene toxicity? 2 1 A Yes . 2 2 Q Would you read the .first sentence in the seccr.c Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. :::-.'4r-3roo \Ationwtue Co\ erace soo-330-0040 410-664-2350 WATER PCB-SD0000062813 181 paragraph. % A "From the medical point of view, : am distressed at the substitution of benzene for a less toxic solvent, toluene . ' Q And that's what you told me earlier, that benzene is more toxic than toluene? A Yes, sir. Q And Mr. Tulev and the people at the long Beach plant were substituting benzene for toluene in their 10 process; is that right? 11 A That's what it seems they wanted to do. 12 Q Would you read the next sentence for us? aJ( A "I am sure, however, that you have sufficient commercial justification." Q What was the commercial justification for changing to a more toxic solvent? A Maybe it was a better product. Q Maybe it was cheaper? A I beg your pardon? Q Maybe it was cheaper? A I don't really know the cost differential between benzene and toiuene.. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 800-336-0646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062814 34222.^ 2D 182 1 Q You go on to say there, Dr. Kelly -- why don't 2 you just read the next sentence for us. 3 A "While it is true the process is a closed one, 4 we always have to worry about leaks. We have found the 3 pump house to be anextremely dangerousarea." 5 Q What did you mean by that last statement, ~ Dr. Kelly? 3 A Weil, the tump house is a place where pumps are 9 enclosed in a small outside shed and the possibility of 10 leaks through the gaskets and the various parts of the 11 pumps can occur, and it was one of the more -- places 12 where the exposure would be higher. 13 Q And you were always worried about leaks in the 14 pump house? 12 A Well, we worried in case there were a _eak. We 15 didn't have leaks ail the time. We didn't have people working a round t he pump house, but they had to go and 13 check the pumps. Presumably they went in and did Q something with t he cackinc of the pump, had to tear a pump 23 down. Pumps don 't leak ail the ti me, obviously, but there " i could be leaks and there could be repairs on the pumps. 22 And i f you're running a chemical plant, you know Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 102-347-3700 300-336-oo46 410-d84-2350 WATER PCB-SD0000062815 183 you're going to have leaks from time to time; is tha,t right? A Well, we don't know. We always are getting -- allegedly getting better pumps that won't leak but that doesn't seem to happen all the time. Q Sometimes they do leak? A Sometime they leak, sure. Q Do you remember, Dr. Kelly, there was an issue in the 1950s about a possible acrylonitrile contamination of the styrene made by Monsanto? A I don't remember that. MR. MC CONNELL: Let me show you a document which we'll mark as Kelly Exhibit 25. (Kelly Exhibit 25 identified.' BY MR. MC CONNELL: 0 a;'n Is this a letter chat you got from F.J. Hahn in A Yes, sir. Q I'm sorry, I think chat's 1958, Dr. Kelly. I didn't mislead you but it's hard to read. It's dated June 11, 1958? A Yes, sir. - Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverage 202-347-3700 H00-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER_PCB-SD0000062816 184 Q Who was F.J. Hahn? \ A I don't know. Q Do you remember he worked in Monsanto's Massachusetts plant? A Yes -- I mean, this came from Springfield so I'm sure he worked there. Q He says in the first paragraph that "The present arrangement for manufacturing styrene and styrene copolymer lattices requires that they share equipment with Lytron 680 which employs acrylonitrile"? A Yes, sir. Q And he goeson to say that "This arrangement presents the possibility of contamination of the styrene lattices with acrylonitrile monomer and since these lattices were sold in food packaging applications, we are faced with the need to determine the degree of acrylonitrile contamination as a regular control measure." Do you remember discussing that with Mr. Hahn? A No, I don't. Q Do you remember anything at ail about this problem? A No, sir. - Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage S00-336-6o46 410-884-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062817 41 L i-.I JT . wf MR. MC CONNELL: Let me show you a document: 2 which we'll mark as Kelly Exhibit 25. 3 (Kelly Exhibit 26 identified.; 4 3Y MR. MC CONNELL: | I 5 - Q Do you recognize this, Dr. Kelly, as your 6 response to Mr. Hahn? s A No, I don't. Let me read it ail the way througr. 3 and 1 may be able to remember. Q MR. MC CONNELL: Sure. 10 (Pause.) 11 '1 12 " | 13 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, 2 finished reading it. BY MR. MC CONNELL: Q Do you recognize that now as your response to 2 4 Mr. Hahn? A Yes, I do. ' Q It's datedJuly ~, 1958? A Yes, sir. Q I have ;ust one or twovery short questions abdut this, Dr. Kelly. Would you look down at the fifth 2 0 paragraph in the letter. - i A Yes, sir. 22 . Q Would you read just- the first sentence for us? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coverace 202-347-3700 300-336-6e46 410-684-2550 ' WATER PCB-SD0000062818 54222 0 136 4 1 A "I might also say that Dr. Lehman would take a 2 very negative view as to the presence of any AN in an 3 extractable form." 4 Q Who was Dr. Lehman? 2 A Director of the Food and Drug Administration -5 director of pharmacology. - Q And you knew in 1958 that he would take a very 3 negative view about any acrylonitrile that might migrate 3 into food pro'ducts? 10 MR. BRAY: Objection to that characterization of 11 the document. 12 MR. MC CONNELL: Object to your coaching again, 13 Jack . 14 MR. BRAY: That's an ob jecti on. If you're going 1 2 to mislead and misstate the document, I have to object. 15 There's no ot her way to do it. This i s very short. - THE WITNESS: Well, I said I really didn't know 1 3 what Lehman was going to do, bu t I say 1 believe that he 19 would take a negative view as t o the p resence of any .AN in 20 an extractabl e form. 21 5Y MR. MC CONNELL: 4. *L 2 And you knew that in 1958? Ace-Federal Reporters, Ixc. \ a nonwide Coveraee 202-347-3700 S00-336-6o46 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062819 187 A Yes, sir. , MR. MC CONNELL: It's 5:00 and we've promised to turn over the conference room at 5:00, so I think we should set a date for -- a time for resuming in the morning . MR. 3RAY: The earlier the better. MR. MC CONNELL: Why don't we go off the record ~ c s. m 1. n u ti s . Discussion off the reccrc. (Whereupon, at 5:00 p.m., the deposition was adjourned, to reconvene at 9:30 a.m., Thursday, January 28, 199 3 . . R. EMMET KELLY Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. Nationwide Coveraee 202-347-3700 S00-336-6646 410-684-2550 WATER PCB-SD0000062820 CERTlElg&XE OF._HeiaBX-BJBLI--t--BEP>grEE 188 I , JULIE BAKER , . the officer before whom the foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition was duly sworn; that the testimony of said witness was taken in shorthand and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under my direction; that said deposition is a true record of the testimony given by said witness; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition was taken; and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia My Commission Expires SEPTEMBER 2 0 , 19 9 7 WATER PCB-SD0000062821 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF DELAWARE IN AND FOR NEW CASTLE COUNTY MONSANTO COMPANY, Plaintiff, v. AETNA CASUALTY & SURETY COMPANY, ' " al. , Defendants Civil Action Number 8 8C-JA-118-1-CV NON-ARBITRATION CASE KELLY DEPOSITION EXHIBITS PROTECTED MATERIAL: MONSANTO INSURANCE COVERAGE LITIGATION Washington, D. C. Thursday, February 4, 1993 ACE - FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC. Stenorype Reporters 1120 G Street, NW Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 347-3700 NATIONWIDE COVERAGE 800-336-6646 WATER PCB-SD0000062822