Document pBX9Xk66wqvwEg2G6rygmJobd
in the: united states district ccxntr
SOOTJSRH DISTRICT Of WEST VIRGINIA
CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA
JAS K: ADKINS, A d a l n l s t r a t a r )
o f tbm 3 Cato of Ralph E. A dkins, )
Dacaaaad, a t a l ,
)
) P la in tiff , )
) n.
)
MONSANTO COMPANY, a Dalawara )
Corporad a n ,
)
Dafondant.
) )
) No.81-2098
Dapoo i t te n o f
EARL H. HARBISCH, JR.
ta k ra an bn h alf of th a P la in tiff .
*
Sop e r t a r : M. J o y S p ain g a r
J am es M ay R epo rting S ervice
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
R.R. 2 - B O X 65 ED W A R O SV ILLE. IL L IN O IS 62025
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF WEST VIRGINIA
CHARLESTON, WEST VIRGINIA
JAMES M. ADKINS, A d m i n i s t r a t o r o f )
the E s ta te of Ralph E. A dkins,
)
Deceased, e t a l,
)
) P lain tiffs, )
) vs. )
MONSANTO COMPANY, a D e la w a re
) )
C orporation,
)
) D efendant. )
No. 81-2098
APPEARANCES :
M essrs. C a lw e ll, McCormick & Payton, b y W. S t u a r t C a l w e l l , J r . , E s q .
M essrs. Bowles, McDavid, G ra ff & Love, by P. M ichael Pleska, Esq. and John Woods, E sq.
Thomas M< B i s t l i n e , E sq.
For P la in tiffs,
For Defendant, M onsanto Company C o u n sel.
IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and betw een counsel fo r the p la in tiffs and counsel for the defendant t h a t th e d e p o s itio n o f EARL H. HARBISCN, J R ., m y be tak en p u rsu a n t to Rule 2 6 (a) o f th e F e d e ra l RuleB o f C iv il Procedure, on Ju ly 13, 1983, a t the Radisson H otel Room 215, 9 th S t r e e t an d C o n v en tio n P la z a , S t. L o u is,
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M is s o u ri, b e fo re M. JOY SPRINGER, a N o ta ry P u b lic w ith in
and fo r th e County of M adison, S ta te o f I l l i n o i s ; th a t
th e issuance o f n o tic e and dedimus is w aived, and th a t
t h i s d e p o s itio n may be ta k e n w ith th e same f o r c e and
e ffe c t as I f a l l F ederal ru le s and s ta tu to ry requirem ents
had been com plied w ith ,
IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED t h a t any
and a ll objections to a l l or any p art of th is deposition,
e x c e p t o b je c tio n s a s to form o f th e q u e s tio n s a s k e d <xt
answ ers g iv e n , a r e h e re b y r e s e r v e d an d may be r a i s e d - -.X'f
on th e t r i a l o f th is ca u se; and th a t the s ig n a tu re o f
the deponent is not w aived.
.
EARL H, HARBISCN. JR . produced, sworn and examined on b e h a lf o f th e p l a i n t i f f s deposes and says as fo llo w s:
EXAMINATION BY MR. CALWELL;
(Whereupon th e r e p o r te r marked P la in t i f f s 1 D ep o sitio n E x h ib it #330 (Monsanto #8323075 through #8323079) c o n s is tin g of 5
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
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1 pages; E x h ib it #331 (Monsanto #8322875) con 2 s is tin g of 1 page ; E x h ib it #332 (Monsanto 3 #8322986) c o n sistin g o f 1 page; E x h ib it 4 #333 (Monsanto #8323053 and #8323054) con 5 s i s t i n g of 2 pages; E x h ib it #334 (Monsanto #8322987 through #8322989) c o n s is tin g o f 3
7 pages; E x h ib it #335 (Monsanto #8322905)
8 c o n s is tin g o f 1 page; E x h ib it #336 (Monsanto
K . *. . - ; - ; :
9 #8322919) c o n s is tin g o f 1 page, fo r tha>:- , * '
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purposes of id e n tific a tio n * )
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11 Q . (By Mr. C alve 11) Would you s ta ta ..
12 your name, p le a s e .
13 A Y es. E a r l H a r ris o n H a rb iso n , J r .
14 Q And w hat is y o u r a d d r e s s , Mr. H arb iso n ?
15 A 74 F a i r O aks, St* L o u is , M is s o u ri.
16 Q You* m em ployed by M onsanto?
17 A T h a t 's c o r r e c t ,
18 Q And w hat i s y o u r p r e s e n t p o s i t i o n 19 w ith th e company? 20 A E x ec u tiv e V ice P r e s id e n t. 21 Q I 'd l i k e t o a s k you a c o u p le o f a r e a s 22 o f q u e s tio n s . F i r s t , i f you w o u ld , p l e a s e , t e l l me w hat 23 your e d u c tio n i s and th e n w e 'l l t a l k a b o u t your c a r e e r 24 w ith M onsanto f o r a few m in u te s . 25 A E d u c a tio n i s a n A .B . D egree in P o l i t i c a l
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
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Science from Washington U n iv e rsity and an L.L.B. from
George W ashington U n iv e r s ity an d some b u s in e s s t r a i n i n g
beyond th a t a t H arvard.
Q J u s t some c o u rse w ork a t H arvard?
A Yeah. I t was a Management Development
Program.
Q When d id you g ra d u a te from law sc h o o l?
A I 'd have to go hack and th in k ab o u t th a t.
Q I t h a s n 't been th a t long, has
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A I t ' s been a w h ile , u n f o r t u n a t e l y . ' :;r-
Gosh, i t was m id -'S O 's. Say, '5 6 . I t m ight be o f f a year.
Q A side from th e management c o u r s e s a t - ..-;;
H arvard, do you have any o th e r p o st-g ra d u a te s tu d ie s be-
yond law school?
A No.
Q No o th e r D e g re e s, r i g h t ?
A No.
Q Now, when d id you s t a r t to w ork f o r
M onsanto?
A 1967.
Q Between th e tim e th a t you g rad u ated
from law s c h o o l In th e m id -'5 0 Vs and th e tim e t h a t you
went to work fo r Monsanto what d id you do?
A I was w ith th e CIA in W ash in g to n .
q Any tr a in in g you re c e iv e d th e re a s s i s t
' JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
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1 you In your work a t Monsanto?
2 W ell, n o t r e a l l y . I t was g e n e ra l
3 management' A ll W ashington based.
4 Q So i t was an a d m in is tr a tiv e p o s itio n ? 5 A Yeah.
Q No a t t o r n e y a s s i g n m e n t s , huh? 7 A No,
8 Q You w e n t d i r e c t l y fro m t h e CIA t o
9 Monsanto th ere? 10 A Y eah.
v :V*:
11 Q And t h a t was i n 1 9 6 7 . What wajar y o u r
12 f i r s t p o s i t i o n w i t h M o n san to ?
v `-.i
13 A D i r e c t o r o f Man a g e tuant I n f o r m a t i o n a n d
14 S y s te m s w i t h t h e c o r p o r a t i o n ,
15 Q T h a t was a c o r p o r a t e s t a f f p o s i t i o n ? l A T h a t was a c o r p o r a t e s t a f f , 17 Q What d o e s t h a t t i t l e m ean, w h a t d i d 18 you do? 19 A W e l l , I r a n t h e c o r p o r a t e w i d e c o m p u t e r s 20 a n d commua l e a t i o n s sy s te m s f o r t h e company a c r o s s a l l 21 o f t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s a n d E u r o p e , 22 Q When you s a y c o m m u n ic a tio n s s y s t e m s , 23 d o e s t h a t mean i n t r a c o m p a n y c o m m u n ic a tio n s ? Does i t 24 h a v e a n y t h i n g t o d o w i t h p u b l i c r e l a t i o n s o r a n y t h i n g 25 l i k e t h a t ?
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
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A
`V*
No, no. J u s t th e p h y sic a l communica-
tio n s : telephone, te le x , com puter-to-com puter.
-Q
And t h a t was companywide?
A Yes.
q How do you do th a t? W hat's i t t h a t
you did? Did you f a c i l i t a t e th is by te le p h o n e s, o r what?
A W ell, I t was th e o v erseein g o f th e
purchase o f the com puters fo r the c o rp o ra tio n , admin is tr a -
tio n of th e s t a f f o f , I g u ess, 800 people a c ro ss th e
U hited S tate s and Europe, s e ttin g the p o lic ie s , dtcl41ng A .
on th e eq u ip m en t, h i r i n g p e o p le . The t y p i c a l th in g one
'
would do in ru n n in g a b u sin e ss. I t was the com puter b u sin ess system s fo r Monsanto but m eeting i t s in te r n a l
*
n e e d . We d i d n 't s e l l a n y th in g to th e p u b lic .
Q Now, would t h a t in c lu d e th e com puters
used fo r lib ra ry and rese arch purposes and th a t kind of
thing?
A By and l a r g e , a lth o u g h , some o f th e
r e s e a r c h a lim e n ts had t h e i r own com puter sy ste m , p la n ts
had some o f t h e i r own com puter sy ste m s; and over th e
y e a rs we a tte m p te d to i n t e g r a t e th o s e , w hat does t h a t
mean. Get them to be a b le to ta lk to each o th e r. But
t h a t was a n e v o l u tio n a r y p r o c e s s . You d o n 't do t h a t
in one a f te r n o o n , I suppose yxi know.
q X suppose t h a t had some r e l a t i o n to
' JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
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1 tha development of the science? A Oh, te c h n o lo g y , s u re .
3 Q So would i t be f a i r to say , th e n ,
4 th a t p a rt of your communications e f f o rts beginning in
5 *67 w ere to t r y t o p u l l to g e th e r and t o d ev elo p t h i s 6 idea of computers ta lk in g to each o th er through the 7 company?
8 A Uh huh (y e s ). 9 Q Now, does Monsanto h a v e , l i k e , : * ' 10 com puter c e n te r o r a com puter t h a t 's th e m aster b r a in 11 f o r th e e n t i r e d e a l? 12 A W e ll, n o t r e a l l y . There a r e th r e e 13 co m p u ter c e n te r s and th e y a r e fu n d a m e n ta lly b u s in e s s 14 com puter c e n te r s h a n d lin g th e f i n a n c i a l and o rd e r t r a f f i c 15 o f th e company. A f t e r t h a t th e r e a r e a h o s t o f s p e c ia liz e d 16 com puter c e n t e r s , s m a ll in n a t u r e , t h a t would d e a l w ith 17 s p e c i f i c s u b je c ts to th o se c e n t e r s . 18 Q When you w ere w ith th e CIA, was t h i s
19 th e k in d o f th in g you w ere doing?
20 A No, n o t r e a l l y . 21 Q So you have th r e e b u s in e s s c e n te r s 22 f o r com p u ters? 23 A Uh huh (y es) , 24 Q T h at a r e c o n c e rn e d w ith th e f i n a n c i a l 25 an d b u s in e s s end o f th e company?
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A Uh h u h ( y e s ) .
Q Then you have some s p e c i a l i z e d c e n te r s ?
A Uh h u h ( y e s ) .
Q What w ould th ey be?
A . W e ll, th a n k God, i t ' s been so lo n g
sin ce I have been in i t , b u t you would have a re se a rc h
one la v e w ould p r o b a b ly have c o m p u ter s u p p o r t o f some ty p e
and i t might w ell have a computer lib r a r y w ith in th a t
c e n te r.
/ - *
Q Do you know i f M o n s a n to h a s s u c h a
th in g now a t th e p r e s e n t tim e?
A W ell, I r e a l l y don' t'.
Q The tim e fram e y o u 'r e t a l k i n g a b o u t
is --
A W ell, see, I got out of th a t in 1973,
so I 'v e got a ten -y e ar void in terms of who's done what
w ith those.
Q So 1967 to 19737
: A Uh h u h ( y e s ) .
Q At l e a s t , during th a t period of time
was t h e r e some s p e c i f i c r e s e a r c h c e n t e r c o m p u ter o p e r a t i o n
th a t you r e c a ll?
A I d o n 't re c a ll a research center one.
Our C e n tra l E n g in e e rin g D epartm ent, f o r exam ple, had a
com puter f a c i l i t y . I t was th e e a r ly v e s tig e s of p u ttin g
JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
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1 the d esig n o f.b u ild in g s end p la n ts on com puters.
2 Q Did th e M edical D epartm ent have one?
3 A Gee, I d o n 't th in k in those days. 4 Q Did i t e v e r d u rin g th e p e rio d o f 5 tim e t h a t you were w orking in t h a t f i e l d , *67 to *73? A I guess I 'd have to t e l l you I d o n 't 7 remember because I have no r e c o lle c tio n o f i t I f th ey d id . 8 , Q D uring th e p e rio d '6 7 to *73 was th e r e 9 some d iv is io n o f M onsanto concerned w ith e n v i r o n m e n t a l . -
" *` - vVi ` 10 s i t u a t i o n s or problem s? 11 A I d o n 't remember one, 12 Q Do you remember an y o th e r s p e c i a l i z e d 13 com puter f u n c tio n s e p a r a te and a p a r t from th e th r e e 14 b u s in e s s c e n te r o p e r a tio n s o th e r th a n th e E n g in e e rin g 15 D epartm ent? 1 A W ell, p la n ts had com puters t h a t had 17 n o t y e t been wired I n to th e sy stem . 18 Q Do you know w hat t h e i r f u n c tio n i s , th e 19 v a r io u s p la n t com puters? 20
A Fundam entally, busin ess com puters in 21 th e p la n ts o r an e n g in e e r in g d e p a rtm e n t in a p l a n t m ight 22 have a s m a ll com p u ter. I n th o s e days we d i d n 't h av e th e 23 m ic ro p ro c e sso rs o f to d a y , so th e y w ere f i d d l i n g a ro u n d , 24 w ith co m p u ters; b u t I d o n 't know s p e c i f i c a l l y w h at th e y 25 d id w ith them e a r l y on.
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Q 0,K . Do you r e c a l l i f th e N itr o
` 2 f a c i l i t y had such a computer d u rin g th e p erio d of tim e
3 you w ere *
4 A I re a lly d o n 't.
5 Q And w ere you s u c c e s s f u l in g e t t i n g
6 th ese p la n t computers and these v ario u s o th e r com puters
7 w ire d i n to some c e n t r a l system ?
8 A By th e tim e I l e f t th e sy stem I 'd
9 sa y th e v e s tig e s of th a t were coming aro u n d , but prln*.
10 c i p a l l y in th e la r g e p l a n t s , Texas C ity , P e n s a c o la ,' .
11 p la c e s lik e t h a t .
12 Q And would th e s e p la n ts be w ire d in to ...
13 th e b u s in e s s c e n te r s ?
14 A Uh huh (y e s ).
15 Q One o f th e th r e e b u s in e s s c e n te r s ?
16 A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
17 Q And do th e th r e e b u s in e s s c e n t e r s
18 p e r s i s t to d a y , o r do you know? 19 A As f a r a s I know, th e y a r e s t i l l t h e r e , 20 an d one s e rv e s a s a backup f o r th e o t h e r .
21 Q To your know ledge, does e v e r y th in g t h a t
22 h as som ething to do w ith c o m p u te rs, a r e th e y w ire d i n t o
23 t h i s one c e n t r a l system now?
24 V,
A I re a lly c o u ld n 't answer i t , I d o n 't
25 know how th e y have s p l i t t h e i r w ork o v er th e p a s t te n y e a r s .
JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
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1 Q Your work betw een *67 and '7 3 , was .y 2 t h a t a l l In St L ouis?
3 A Yes.
4 . Q And t h a t was th e same p o s i t i o n - 5 A That was. Q - - f o r t h a t tim e p e rio d . What d id 7 you do n ex t w ith the company? 8 A I w ent to w ork f o r th e -- Vie11, r e a l l y , 9 I went to work f o r the Chairman then as D ire c to r
, -*T * ' r - 1f' ^ 1 ` liS f'rt.A
10 O rg a n iz a tio n and Management D evelopm ent, and t h a t U n i c a l l y r e p o r te d t o , God, I g u e s s , i t was E x e c u tiv e V ic 12 P r e s i d e n t , I 'v e f o r g o tt e n . 13 Q You sa y you w ere w o rk in g f o r th e 14 P r e s i d e n t ? 15 A F u n d am e n tally . 16 Q O.K. And w hat was your m is s io n in t h a t 17 jo b ? What w ere you supposed to be d o in g ? 18 A We w ere lo o k in g a t th e o r g a n iz a tio n 19 o f th e company, s e e in g w h e th e r i t m et th e e n d s , th e 20 programs t h a t the P re s id e n t w anted to p u t in p la c e , 21 a s s e s s i n g tb s s o - c a l l e d management s t y l e o f th e com pany, 22 w h eth e r w* had a coamon s t y l e o f management a c r o s s th e 23 c o r p o r a tio n , and d e s ig n in g new pay an d I n c e n tiv e s s y s te m s . 24 Q In c a r r y in g o u t, I g u e s s , th e program 25 o f th e P r e s id e n t i s p a r t o f your j o b , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
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A Ye8 . He was new to th e company and
2 we were tr y in g to g e t I t In sync w ith h is views o f th e
3 fu tu re.
4 Q Implementing h is p o lic ie s to see i f
5 i t would w ork, rig h t? 6 A Uh huh (y e s ).
7 Q Now, in c o n n e c tio n w ith t h a t , d id you
8 have occasion to work w ith any employee h e a lth p o lic ie s
9 or programs?
10 . 11
A No.
: --*. r**v ,7
Q Was th e r e someone who was your p e e r
12 who d id d u rin g t h a t p e rio d o f tim e? I 'm ta lk in g a b o u t #73.
13 A W e ll, I d o n 't e v e r r e c a l l i t b e in g a
14 m a tte r o f a t t e n t i o n d u rin g t h a t p e rio d b ecause we w ere
15 d e a lin g w ith broad management s t y l e w ith in th e company.
16 We w e r e n 't d e a lin g w ith s p e c i f i c segm ents o f i t o r
17 s p e c i f i c Is s u e s w ith in i t .
16 Q J u s t w a s n 't t h a t im p o rta n t a t t h a t tim e?
19 A W e ll, i t j u s t w a s n 't a f a c t o r i n w hat
20 I was d o in g .
21 Q And you don* t know i f i t was a f a c t o r
22 in w hat somebody e l s e was doing?
23 A No.
24 Q Who was th e P r e s id e n t a t t h a t tim e?
25 A John W. H anley.
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1 Q W ell, you m ust have done som ething
2 r i g h t f o r Mr. H anley?
3 A I guess so.
4 Q Were you in ch arg e o f an y p a r t i c u l a r
5 a s p e c t o f th e o p e ra tio n s o f th e company from c o rp o ra te
6 s ta f f le v e l in th is job?
7' A N o t r e a l l y .
8 Q Or w ere you j u s t an im plem enter?
9 A W e ll, i t was a d e s ig n a n d c o o r d i M t i f l i a v ^ *
10 r o l e i n h e l p i n g him im p le m e n t th e p o l i c i e s t h a t h
11 b u t I was n o t i n c h a r g e o f a n y t h i n g p e r s e .
y'
12
Q
In term s of a lin e and s t a f f fufttttton
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13 A I t was s t a f f .
14 Q Any e n v ir o n m e n t a l c o n c e rn s a t t h a t
15 p a r t i c u l a r tim e ?
16 A N o t by .me.
17 Q Do you know i f t h e r e was a n y b o d y who
18 w as y o u r p e e r t h a t w as t r y i n g t o im p le m e n t t h a t k i n d o f
19 t h i n g a t t h a t tim e ? 20
A I d o n 1t know.
21 Q D u r in g t h a t p e r i o d o f tim e w e re y o u 22
made aw are o f an y c h lo ra c n e problem a t the N itr o , W est 23
V irg in ia , m anufacturing f a c ility ? 24
A I d o n 't th in k a t th a t tim e o th e r than 25
h e a rin g th e word " N itro " t h a t I ev en knew w hat th e y d id .
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1 Q And y o u h e a r d t h e w ord " N i t r o 11 b e c a u s e
2 I t was a f a c i l i t y ? 3 A I t was a p la n t.
4 Q This business ofN itro aboutchloracne
5 or th a t kind of th in g never f i l t e r e d up to you during
th a t period of time?
7 A No.
8 Q L e t me b a c k up j u s t f o r a m in u te .
9 D uring th e p e r io d 1967 to '7 3 th e V ietnam c o n f l i c t was ; 'r; 10 s t i l l g o in g on and M onsanto was a governm ent c o n t r a c t o r ,
11 I s u p p o s e t t o p r o v i d e c e r t a i n h e r b i c i d e s f o r t h a t e f f o r t *
12 W ere you a w a r e o f t h a t a t t h a t tim e ?
13 A I was n o t.
14
Q
So you d id n * t knowbetw een167 and
173
15 t h a t your company was s e l l i n g 2 t 4 f5-T an d 2,4-D in a
l th in g c a lle d A gent Orange to th e governm ent?
17 A No.
18 Q D id you e v e r become aware t h a t your
19 com pany h a d ?
20 A Ever?
21 Q Y eah.
22 A W e l l , l a t e l y .
23
24 t h a t ? 25
Q And was i t j u s t l a t e l y t h a t you le a rn e d A Yes.
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
1
1 Q Do you r e c a l l th e f i r s t tim e t h a t you
2 determ ined th at?
3 .. A No, I c a n n o t t e l l you w ith an y
4 sp ecificity .
5 Q So your c o n ta c ts w ith W ashington and th e CIA an d a l l were n o t u t i l i z e d a t a l l in th e A gent
7 Orange b u sin e ss, or w hatever?
8 A No.
9 Q In f a c t , you j u s t d i d n 't even know,
10 a n y th in g rb o u t i t , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
\;v;.
11 A T h a t's c o r r e c t .
12 Q And you g o t t h i s new jo b in 1973 a s
13 a d v is e r to Mr. H anley, and how lo n g d id t h a t jo b l a s t ?
14 A I th in k i t was u n t i l S ep tem b er, g iv e
15 and ta k e , o f *75,
16 Q And d u rin g t h a t p e rio d o f tim e you
17 had no knowledge a b o u t t h i s 2 ,4 ,5 - T an d c h lo ra c n a is s u e
18 a t th e N itr o P la n t o r even A gent O range, f o r t h a t m a tte r
19 r i g h t ? 20 A No.
21 Q In t h i s jo b ,*73 to '7 5 ,d id you have
22 an y r e s p o n s i b i l i t y a t a l l to lo o k a t o r rev iew b u d g ets
23 o r income o r b a la n c e s h e e ts o r a n y th in g e l s e f o r th e 24 c o rp o ra tio n ?
25 A No.
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
15
1 A No.
2 Q How d id you know w h e th e r th e p o l i c i e s
3 were paying o f f or b ein g im plem ented? 4 A Which p o lic ie s ? 5 Q W ell, a s I u n d e rs ta n d yourjo b , Mr.
6 H an ley h as some program t h a t he w an ted to im p le m e n t,
7 w hatever th a t m ight have been, to r e f l e c t h is le a d e rs h ip
8 and so fo rth in the company; and as X u n d erstan d i t , 9 p a r t o f your jo b was to see to i t t h a t t h a t c o n c e p t;'" '" 10 th o s e c o n c e p ts w ere c a r r i e d o u t a n d a l s o , X a s s u m e , you / 11 h e lp e d d e s i g n some o f them i n t h a t f u n c t i o n , ; 12 A Uh h u h ( y e s ) . 13 0 So how d i d you know w h e th e r th e com 14 p a n y was i n a c t u a l i t y c a r r y i n g o u t t h i s i d e a t h a t Mr. 15 H a n le y h ad ? 16 A W e ll, we s p e n t somes e v e r a l y e a r s 17 t r y i n g to p u t a s e r i e s o f m anagem ent a n d p e r s o n n e l p o l i 18 c i e s i n t o , e f f e c t . You d o n 't g e t th e im p a c t o f t h o s e f o r 19 maybe h a l f a d e c a d e . I ' d s a y to d a y y o u 'r e l o o k in g a t
20
some o f th e p ay o u ts from th o se s y s te m s . B ut in th e 21
p e rio d o f tim e I was th e re y o u 'd be p u ttin g them in and
22
th e re w ould be n j way to t e l l i f th e y w ere s u c c e s s f u l, 23
in f a c t, they w e re n 't even im plem ented.
24
Q So betw een *73 an d *75 was a tim e o f
try in g to get these things in place?
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
1
V1
A R ight.
V. 2
q You w ere n o t lo o k in g f o r an d d id n o t
3 receiv e luiy: feedback as to th e ir success or fa ilu re a t
4 th a t time?
5 A No.
6 Q You s a id th e r e w ere some p e rs o n n e l
7 p o lic ie s th a t you were d esig n in g o r, a t le a s t , respond
8 s ib le fo r im plem enting. Did those p erso n n el p o lic ie s
9 a f f e c t the o p eratin g u n its , fo r example, lik e , N itro ?
10 A They w ereb a s i c a l l y co m p en satio n p o l i c i e s , 11 Q What does t h a t mean? 12 A Pay, how a r e we g o in g to pay p e o p le , 13 by w hat sy ste m s, what p a r ts w i l l be b a s ic c o m p e n sa tio n , 14 w hat w i l l be in c e n ti v e , t h a t s o r t o f th in g . 15 q Was t h a t f o r h o u rly p eo p le? 16 A No. 17 q These were f o r company p e o p le , r i g h t ? 18 A Y es. Management in th e company. 19 q And how fiar down d id y o u r p o l i c i e s go
20 r e la tin g to these com pensation p o lic ie s?
21 A T hey'd go th ro u g h th e p r o f e s s i o n a l 22 ra n k s o f th e company. 23 q Would th e y r e a c h th e s u p e r v is o r / 24 l e v e l in th e p la n t? 25 A W ell, th e y 'd go th ro u g h th e s a l a r i e d
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
' W ..
0
r V^
* !
1 work fo rc e , but the impact of the p o lic ie s , o bviously,
2 is g re a te r in the management a re a s a t the top o f th e 3 company than i t is f u r th e r down.
4 Q Was t h a t the e x t e n t o f your p e rs o n n e l
5 p o lic ie s t h a t you were p a r t i c u l a r l y r e s p o n s ib le fo r?
6 A I guess in terms of d ir e c t personnel
7 p o lic ie s - - I co u ld n ' t t e l l you th e re was n o th in g e l s e ,
8 b u t t h a t 18 th e t h r u s t o f i t .
9 Q So p r im a r ily how much y o u 're goings10 to pay p e o p le , r ig h t?
11 A And th e system s by w hich you m o tiv a te
12 p e o p le , yeah.
. .. : t
13 Q You a l s o Were r e s p o n s ib le f o r d e c id in g 14 how b ig o r w hat k in d o f c a r r o t sh o u ld be on th e end o f 15 th e s t i c k to g e t th e se p eo p le to w ork, i s t h a t r i g h t ? 16 A Uh huh ( y e s ) . 17 Q Now, w ere th e r e some a r e a s t h a t you 18 ca n t e l l an a b o u t l i k e t h a t t h a t you im plem ented? 19 . - A I guess I d o n 't u n d e r s ta n d th e q u e s tio n . 20
I t was an a c ro s s -th e -b o a rd com pensation system , so i t 21 was n o t s p e c i f i c a l l y r e l a t e d to an a r e a so much a s a 22 g e n e r a l co m pensation sy stem f o r th e management o f th e 23 c o r p o r a tio n a s a w h o le. 24
Q And d id t h a t c a r r y w ith i t , a s you 25
s a i d , some id e a o f how to m o tiv a te p eo p le?
/ JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
U
V, } 1
* V .'
1
2 3 4 5
7 8 .9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 - 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A To th e e x te n t you b e lie v e d t h a t m o tiv a-
tio n is lit p a rt achieved by com pensation, yeah.
9 So th e m o tiv a tio n was p u re ly co n nected to how much money th e s e people w ere making or how many
frin g e b e n e fits they were g e ttin g , is th a t what yo u 're
saying?
A T hat was the t h r u s t of th is p a r tic u la r
s e t o f program s we w ere w orking on, y e s.
9 And w ere th e r e a s a t o f program s in.; t h i s same v e in g e a re d to p r o d u c tio n , in c r e a s e d p ro d u c tio n ,
increased pay, th a t kind of thing?
A Compensation tie d to p ro d u c tiv ity ?
Q Of perform ance. A Of p erfo rm an ce, y e s .
9 And i s th e r e some r e l a t i o n in M onsanto' s scheme o f th in g s between perform ance and p ro d u c tiv ity ?
A W ell, th e re 's c e rta in ly a re la tio n sh ip
b etw een - We hope t h e r e 1s a r e l a t i o n s h i p betw een p e r -
form a nee a n d c o m p en sa tio n . Now, p r o d u c tiv i ty you r e a l l y
have to define to say does performance include p ro d u c tiv ity ,
does it?
9 Does i t in M onsanto's scheme o f th in g s? A Sure. But then you have to d efin e
p ro d u c tiv ity .
q Amount p u t out by a p la n t, would th a t
JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
1n
1 be p ro d u ctiv ity ?
2 A Yes, the amount o f product put out
3 per hour, per c a p ita l d o lla r, yes, sure.
A Q In o th e r w ords, in term s o f some
5 u n it of measure?
6 A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
7 Q E ith e r time or c a p ita l d o lla r expendi
8 tu re , th a t kind of thing?
9
A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
*?&'.".
. . -r.`i- :`;'v`
10 q And a l l t h a t would have some r e l a t i o n
n to your r e tu r n on in v e s tm e n t, th e n , i s th a t r ig h t?
12 A S u re .
-*
13 Q Which Is k in d o f th e u ltim a te m easu rin g
U s t i c k , I su p p o se , how ouch you g e t?
15 A A m easu rin g s t i c k .
16 Q Now, in d e s ig n in g th e s e p o l i c i e s w ith
17 a l l t h a t in mind - - an d I assu m e, you had to c o n s id e r
18 a l l t h a t In o rd e r to s e t a co m p en satio n s c a le t h a t w ould
19 a d e q u a te ly com pensate p e o p le engaged In t h i s p h ilo so p h y
20 o f work p r o d u c t i v i t y - - d id you d e s ig n an y p o l i c i e s
21 r e l a t e d t o how th e company d e c id e d to keep a p ro d u c t o r
22 keep a p a r t i c u l a r a s p e c t o f i t s b u s in e s s on b o ard o r to 23 c u t i t a s b e in g n o t p r o f i t a b l e , th o s e k in d s o f d e c is io n s ? 2A
Did your p o lic y touch on t h a t a t a l l 7 25
A No. The p o l i c i e s d e a l t , th e program s
JA M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G SE R V IC E
1 d e a lt w ith s e ttin g up a system by which in d iv id u a l 2 managers could put in place longer term r e s u lts and 3 s h o rte r term goals which would help them ach iev e su ccess 4 in t h e i r o p e ra tio n s , and com pensation would be t ie d in 5 some m easure to t h a t p e rfo rm an c e . The d e f l n t i o n o f t h a t perform ance was in th e hands o f the m anagers. There 7 was no a t t e m p t t o do t h a t fro m c o r p o r a t e . We s i m p l y 8 tr ie d to put the system down, s a id , i f you o p e ra te 9 t h i s sy ste m , y o u 'l l be more s u c c e s s f u l in term s of%. 10 s p e c i n g t h e performance a n d w h a t e v e r you e x p e c t ; b u t ' , i t 'J-p 11 was i m p o s s i b l e i n a com pany o f t h a t b r e a d t h t o a t t e m p t 12 t o do a n y t h i n g more t h a n p u t a b r o a d s c a l e s y s t e m down.* 13 How t h a t was a p p l i e d by a n i n d i v i d u a l m an ag er o r e x e c u 14 t i v e was a d i f f e r e n t m a t t e r . 15 Q T h e n , I s u p p o s e , t h a t became one l m e a s u r e m e n t, t h e n , o f th e a c c o u n t a b i l i t y o f t h e i n d i v i d 17 u a l m a n a g e r , how w e l l he im p le m e n te d i t , w h e t h e r i t p a i d 18 o f f a n d was s u c c e s s f u l s i n c e you l e f t t h e p r a c t i c a l i t y 19 o f p u t t i n g t h i s s y s t e m i n t o e f f e c t up t o him? 20 A You mean w h e t h e r he i m p le m e n te d t h e 21 p r o g r a m s ? 22 Q Y es. W hether i t was s u c c e s s f u l o r n o t . 23 A Y e s. 24 Q When you s a y t h e s e i n d i v i d u a l m a n a g e r s , 25 a r e t h e s e t h e v a r i o u s o p e r a t i o n a l m a n a g e rs t h a t y o u ' r e
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
1 ta lk in g about?
2 A W ell, the whole system t i e r s i t s e l f
3 down t o e x e c u tiv e v ic e p r e s id e n ts have v ic e p r e s id e n ts
4 r e p o r t i n g to him who have g e n e r a l m anagers r e p o r t i n g who
5 h ave o th e r p e o p le r e p o r t i n g . The sy ste m c a s c a d e s i t s way down in term s o f r e s u l t s and g o a ls w i t h in th e com pany.
7 Q A g e n eral m anager, fo r exam ple, of
8 MIC w ould be one l e v e l o f p e r s o n who w ould r e c e i v e t h i s
9 policy?
' . . ... :
10 A Oh, s u r e .
1
11 Q And w ould be e x p e c t e d , t h e n , t o o p e r a t e
12 w i t h i n i t ?
13 A Y es.
14 Q Now, t h a t was t r u e b e tw e e n 173 a n d '7 5 , 15 in a n y e v e n t?
16 A T h a t 's when i t s t a r t e d . 17 Q And do you knew i f t h a t p r o c e s s t h a t 18 you w ere i n p a r t r e s p o n s i b l e f o r i s s t i l l g o in g on? 19 Y e s, i t i s . 20 Q Does t h a t p o lic y have a name? 21 A W e ll, I g u e s s we w o u ld r e f e r t o i t a s 22 t h e M anagem ent By R e s u l ts P ro g ra m . 23 Q In o t h e r w o r d s , I f you had a f e l l o w 24 an d you s a i d , lo o k , you d o n 't u n d e rs ta n d w h a t's g o in g on , 25 I w a n t you t o r e a d th e M anagem ent By R e s u l t s P ro g ra m s o
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
1 you g e t a b e tte r id e a , you could p o in t him to a document
2 and he c o u ld go re a d i t and h e 'd know w hat y o u 'r e t a l k i n g
3 about, is th at right?
4 A I'm n o t sure there is a document.
5 T h ere a r e p r o b a b ly some docum ents t h a t la y t h a t o u t , yeg. Q Where would th ey be?
7 A 3e throughout the c o rp o ra tio n .
8 Q I realize th at.
9 A I n th e han d s o f many m an a g ers.- T h e re 's'-^
10 n o t some c e n t r a l r e p o s i t o r y f o r t h e d o c u m e n t.
^1' ;i J
**1-,
11 Q You c o u l d f i n d i t , t h o u g h , c o u l d n ' t you? 12 A Y eah. 13 Q How w ould you f i n d i t ? 14 A Go t o a f i l e . 15 Q What f i l e w ould you go t o ? l A I ' d have a f i l e p r o b a b l y i n my o f f i c e 17 on M anagement By R e s u l t s . 18 Q I f I a s k e d y o u , t h e n I ' d a s k you f o r 19 y o u r f i l e on Management By R e s u l t s P ro g ra m , r i g h t ? 20 A Yeah. 21 Q And d o e s t h e Management By R e s u l t s 22 P r o g r a m i n c l u d e o t h e r p o l i c i e s a s i d e fro m j u s t t h e com 23 p e n s a t i o n p o l i c y ? I t s o u n d s t o me l i k e t h a t ' s a p r e t t y 24 c o m p r e h e n s iv e p r o g r a m , M anagem ent By R e s u l t s , o f w h ic h 25 c o m p e n s a t i o n w ou ld be one p a r t , i s t h a t t r u e ?
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
2-
1 A Yes. In management the compensation 2 program la th e means by w hich you, o b v io u sly , reward 3 or compensate fo r the program. I t is n ot the program. 4 Q E xactly. A ll rig h t. Is there any 5 o th e r program t h a t you were w o rk in g on and r e s p o n s ib le f o r i m p le m e n ta tio n d u r i n g th e *73 t o *75 p e rio d ? 7 A T h a t's the b asic program. 8 Q And d i d t h i s p ro g ra m have w i t h i n i t 9 an y th in g to do w ith employee h e a lth y the M edical 10 m ent o r e n v i r o n m e n t s 1 c o n c e r n s o r t o x i c s u b s t a n c e s : ' ahd-S ' S - | . U those kinds of things? 12 A I d o n ' t rem em ber a n y s p e c i f i c s o f t h a t : 13 n a t u r e . 14 Q Was t h e r e n o t a g e n e r a l a r e a , was 15 t h e r e n o t a g e n e r a l a r e a ? 16 A V e i l , t h e p r o g r a m d i d n ' t h a v e , i t 17 d i d n ' t s p e c o u t r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s o r a r e a s . I t d i d n ' t 18 s a y , do t h i s i n m a r k e t i n g a n d t h a t i n em p lo y ee h e a l t h
19 a n d t h i s In a d v a n c e a n d s o o n . I t r a t h e r p u t a c o n c e p t
20 o f hew on would manage a company th r o u g h s u c c e s s i v e 21 l a y e r s o f m a n a g e rs i n t o e f f e c t . B u t i t d i d n ' t -- You 22 c o u ld ta k e th e program and p re s u m a b ly d e a l a s e f f e c t i v e l y 23 w i t h em p lo y ee h e a l t h a s you c o u l d i n t h e f i n a n c e f u n c t i o n . 24 I t was n o t a p ro g ra m w i t h s p e c i f i c t y o f f u n c t i o n i n i t . 25 Q P a r t o f t h e d e s i g n p r o b le m was t o
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
'1 .. 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19
20 21 22 23 24 25
't
c re a te a model th a t would have a p p l i c a b i l i t y wherever
you put i t , r ig h t?
A Right:.
Q You w ould e x p e c t , t h e n , a management
person in environm ental h e a lth or employee h e a lth or
the M edical Department to be ab le to take th is program
and u tiliz e i t in c a rry in g out the goals and ends of
Monsanto j u s t a s w e ll as t h a t p a r t i c u l a r model m ight be
used over th is pro d u ctio n u n it somewhere?
~
- -2';-7- . .. A Y e s , you w o u ld . A l t h o u g h , i t 1 t o r e ^ \.!'i
d i f f i c u l t in some a r e a s . M a rk e tin g and s a l e s i s much
more e a s i l y a p p lie d to the program than the amorphous
fie ld s of science and technology, but in g e n eral, yes,
you're rig h t,
Q I gath er what y ou're saying is the
Management by R e su lts Program is r e a l l y an e f f o r t by
Mr, H a n le y 's regim e to im plem ent th e p h ilo s o p h y o f Mon-
santo as re fle c te d through h is regim e? I t 's s o r t of an
approach to the company, is th a t rig h t?
A Yes, I th in k th a t's f a ir enough.
I t 's a program designed to g et a conanonality of manage-
ment approach a c ro ss the c o rp o ra tio n .
Q YJould t h a t be t h e b e s t p l a c e to f i n d
M o n s a n to 's p h i l o s o p h y , r e a l l y , i n te r m s o f how t h e company
sh o u ld be ru n and w h at i t s h o u ld be d o in g and how i t sh o u ld
JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
21
1 be doing it ? 2 A I th in k th a t and the accompanying, 3 w h a t we c a l l , m anagem ent s t y l e o f M o n s a n to , y e s , i n d e e d . 4 . Q Now, when you g o t i n t o t h i s r a t h e r 5 p h ilo so p h ic a l p o s itio n in '73 and '7 5 , was th ere an e x i s t ing program from p rev io u s regim es t h a t you re p la c e d w ith
7 t h e Management By R e s u l t s P r o g r a m , o r d i d you k i n d o f 8 r e f in e or add to what was a lr e a d y in p lace? 9 A V e i l , t h e c o n c e p t o f Manage men t ,B y / . ^ / v -y ' 10 R e s u l t s , MBO, M anagem ent By O b j e c t i v e s , o b v i o u s l y , ;wail 11 n o t a new t h o u g h t . I t was a r o u n d f o r y e a r s . T h ere' w e re ' ? 12 v e s t i g e s o f t h a t p ro g ra m a d m i n i s t e r e d b y d i f f e r e n t n a n a - , -V.:
- **v r
13 g e r s i n t h e i r own u n i q u e w a y . You c a n c a l l i t a r e p l a c e 14 m e n t. We d i d n 11 b u i l d t h e l o t on t h e p a t h , l e t me p u t
15 i t t h a t w ay. 1 Q When you g o t t h e r e i n 173 in t ti s p o s i 17 t i o n , i s w h a t y o u ' r e s a y i n g i s t h e r e was no c e n t r a l i z e d - 18 A T h a t ' s c o r r e c t . 19 *Q T h a t i t was a d e c e n t r a l i z e d k i n d o f 20 th in g ? 21 A (Nods h e a d a f f i r m a t i v e l y . ) 22 Q And d i d i t r e q u i r e y o u , t h e n , t o go t o 23 v a r i o u s a r e a s o f t h e com pany t o f i n d o u t w h a t i n f a c t was 24 g o i n g on i n t h i s a r e a t h a t we h a v e b e e n t a l k i n g a b o u t , 25 e n a b l e you t o p u l l i t a l l t o g e t h e r ?
j AM ES MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
2
1 A W ell, in a way, y es, but n o t in the
2 d e ta ile d way you m ight imagine because sim ply through
3 l iv i n g th e re you knew t h a t th e re w ere d iv e r s e a p p ro ac h es
4 to i t ; so we d i d n 't go around and c a ta lo g 82 d i f f e r e n t
5 ways to g e t to th e en d . We s a i d , of c o u r s e i t ' s d iv e r s e 6 and w e 're going to t r y and move to g e t a more c o o r d in a te d 7 ap p ro ach to i t . So, yeah , I guess we th o u g h t a b o u t i t ,
8 b u t, no, we d i d n 't o u t and c a ta lo g them. 9 Q And w ere t h e r e a n y w r i t t e n program s
/A* t,
10 o r p o l i c i e s o r s e t s o f d o c u m e n ts , a s you have r e f e r r e d ` 11 t o h e r e a s y o u r f i l e on t h e M anagem ent By R e s u l t s - P ro 12 gram , in e x i s t e n c e t h a t you w ere a b l e t o f i n d i n *73 when 13 you w an ted t o im p le m e n t y o u r w n p ro g ram ? 14 A I d o n 1 t r e c a l l l o o k i n g f o r a n y , t h e r e 15 f o r e , f i n d i n g a n y . I t was j u s t n o t t e r r i b l y g e rm a n e , 16 Q I f you know, who would have been in 17 t h i s d e c e n tr a liz e d scheme p r i o r to 173 ? l.e re th e r e key 18 p erso n s who would have been r e s p o n s ib le f o r th e s e v a r io u s 19 o r d iv e rs programs o f o p e r a tio n th ro u g h o u t th e company? 20 I f m tr y in g to g e t some id e a a s to how i t worked on t h i s 21 d e c e n tr a l iz e d b a s i s . 22 A V e il, i t would have been th e m ajor 23 heads o f th e o p e ra tin g u n its o f M onsanto and d e c e n t r a l i z e d 24 th ro u g h t h e i r v a rio u s le v e ls o f management. I f you to o k 25 an o p e ra tio n c h a r t from 1971, you know, t h a t ' s w hat i t
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
2
would be . Q And was t h a t h i s t o r i c a l l y t r u e , l i k e ,
back in 1949 or *48? A I re a lly couldn' t answer. Q Kow f a r back do you know i t was d e
c e n tra liz e d in the fashion you found i t in , sa y , 1973? A I c a n 't go back much core th an a y ear
or so o f t h a t p e r io d . Even '6 7 . I o n ly know my own e ra th a t X worked in , I c a n 't take you back much"fu rth e r than th a t era.
Q Did the company have o rg a n iz a tio n a l c h a r t s d u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d o f t i m e , i f you know? V^. - . \
A Yes. Q Is th at what they are called ? A Uh huh ( y e s ) . Q I f you w anted to sum i t up, w hat t h i s company was lik e in -- A Sure, there are organization c h a rts.
And w here w ould t h e y be in you w anted to go look a t one?
A I d o n 't know t h a t th e y would be a n y where today. I would guess the D ire c to r of P erso n n el f o r the c o rp o ra tio n would be the lo g ic a l p la c e , b u t I d o n 't know th e re a r e an y in e x is te n c e to d a y .
q Would th e D ir e c to r o f P e rs o n n e l s o r t
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
1 o f be the re p o s ito ry o f th is kind of inform ation? I f
2 anybody had i t , i t would be the D ire c to r of p e rso n n e l --
3 A You mean of th e o r g a n is a tio n c h a r ts ?
4 q Yeah.
5 A I would th in k so. 6 q Q.K. In 1975 you w ent somewhere e ls e ?
7 A Yeah. I became G eneral Manager of
8 the S p e c ia lty Chemicals D iv isio n .
9 q Was t h a t a l a t e r a l t r a n s f e r o r .s te p up?,;
10
*' -Vi:.;---'
A No, F undam entally l a t e r a l . Tha t
`
11 was in th e I n d u s t r i a l Chem icals Company.
12 Q And t h a t would have been In l a t e V75
13 or e a r l y *76?
14 A My r e c o l l e c t i o n is l a t e *75.
15 Q I n d u s t r i a l Chem icals D iv is io n ?
16 A I t was th e S p e c ia lty C hem icals D iv is io n
17 of th e I n d u s t r i a l Chem icals Company,
18 Q And w hat d id you do f o r th e S p e c i a lt y
v
19 `'Chem icals D iv is io n ? 20 - -A I was th e G en eral M anager. I ra n th e 21 b u s in e s s and was a c c o u n ta b le f o r I t s p r o f i t s , l o s s , 22 b u s in e s s d i r e c t i o n , you name i t .
23 Q What d id the S p e c i a lt y C hem icals 24 D iv is io n do? 25 A W ell, i t m an u factu red and s o ld a wide
JAMES MAY REPORTING SERVICE
2
1
1 range of p ro d u cts: a n a lg e s ic s , fu n c tio n a l flu id s . There
- Or*
-- 2 must have;b6en a hundred products of various s o rts .
-\***
3 Swimming pool c h e m ic a ls .
4 Q Did i t have a n y th in g to do w ith a g r i -
5 c u ltu ra l chem icals?
6 A No.
7 Q No h e r b i c i d e s o r p e s t i c i d e s ?
8 A No.
9 Q Was t h a t a S t , L o u is b a s e d o r t h i s a r e a ?
10 A Y es.
11
Q Any c h lo r in a te d phenols involved in
t"
12 t h a t o p e r a t i o n ?
13 A G ee, I d o n ' t t h i n k s o , I e i t h e r h a v e
14 t o t e l l you no o r I d o n ' t rem em ber i t .
15 Q T h is was a c t u a l l y i n a m a n u f a c t u r i n g
16 o p e r a t i n g u n i t ?
17 A I t was o p e r a t i n g u n i t . M a n u f a c t u r i n g ,
18 s a l e s , u h h u h ( y e s ) .
19 Q And how l o n g w e re you t h e r e ? t* *
20 * A l?d s a y a y e a r .
21 Q O.K. So t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d ? 22 A T hen I became G e n e r a l l i a n a g e r o f t h e 23 P l a s t i c i z e r s D i v i s i o n . 24 Q New, d o e s t h a t h a v e a num ber o f menu25 f a c t u r i n g f a c i l i t i e s u n d e r i t o r J u s t one?
* / JAME5 MAY REPORTING SERVICE
t 21 3 4 5
6
7 8 9
10
11
12 13 14 15 l 17 18 19
20 21 22
23 24 25
A
* *' *i
i,t -
s e v e ra l.
P la s tic iz e r s had -- W ell, i t had
Q Now, in t h a t d i v i s i o n do you know
i f they were d e a lin g w ith any c h lo rin a te d phen o ls7
A I d o n 't think so,
Q O.K. So you g o t th a t jo b , and th a t was S t, Louis based also ?
A T h at's c o rre c t. Now, t h a t ' s n o t a c o r p o r a te
job, is it? A
No. I t ' s a l i n e jo b .
'.v*' V
-' *
Q or e a rly f 77?
O.K. So t h a t jo b began in la t e i j J 76- v - v a '*
A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
Q How lo n g d id t h a t l a s t ? A W ell, i t la ste d about a year, but concurrently w ith th a t, about halfw ay through th a t, I
a ls o becan* Manager of th e D eterg en ts and Phosphates - ; ' D ivision/^?;
Q Is th a t lik e a dual job?
A X had b o th o f them and I had a s s i s t a n t
g e n e ra l m anagers u n d er me who oversaw th e d a i l y o p e r a tio n s of it.
Q So you g o t in v o lv ed w ith phosphates? A Uh huh ( y e s ) ,
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
V,-" 0\
\
1 Q Did Chat In clu d e th e Krummrich p la n t?
IV* * 2 V A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
3 Q And do you know i f p u w ere d e a lin g
4 w ith any chlorinated phenols in th a t d iv isio n ?
5 A Yes.
6 q Did you have a d ep artm en t th a t you
7 r e c a l l t h a t you c a l l e d D epartm ent 237 a t th e Krummr ic h 8 Plant? 9 A I c o u ld n 't t e l l you.
10 q Did you have a C h lo rin a te d p h en o ls
11 D epartm ent a t th e p la n t?
12 A We made c h l o r i n a t e d p h e n o ls . What s - *
13 th e d ep artm en t was 1 c a n 't t e l l you.
14 q When d id you f i r s t le a r n a b o u t
15 c h lo r in a te d p h e n o ls, t h a t th e r e was su c h an a n im a l?
16 You, o b v io u sly , d i d n 't g e t i t in law s c h o o l, r i g h t ?
17 A D i d n 't g e t t h a t . The re a s o n I 'm
18 h e s i t a t i n g i s I r e a l l y d o n 't know i f I h e a rd i t th e n or
*
19 l a t e r on 'M anaging D ir e c t o r o f th e I n d u s t r i a l C hem icals
20 Company. I J u s t a b s o lu te ly don11 have a s p e c if ic r e c o l -
21 le c tio n of i t . I c e r ta in ly heard o f i t , b u t it could have 22 been *79 o r *80 o r even '8 1 . 23 q In a v e r y b r i e f p e r io d i t lo o k s l i k e 24 the company was g e t t i n g you v e ry w e ll se aso n e d in l i n e 25 p o s itio n s h e re . Can you t e l l me b a s i c a l l y a s a g e n e r a l
*i J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
3
manager f o r th e se two d iv is io n s , w hat was your jo b or
V, -V y \ - ;..v.
m ission, what were you re sp o n sib le fo r?
A W ell, b a s ic a lly , you s t i l l f i r s t have
to have a g eneral understanding of the b a s ic s . These
a re complex b u sin esses because i t h an d les a range o f
p ro d u c ts. S p e c ia l C hem icals, a s I s a id , is maybe a
hundred p ro d u c ts. So you've g o t to g e t in and u n d er
stand the general workings of i t , the product lin e s ,
the m arkets, the budget, the s a le s , the p ro fi t a b l l ^ ^ ^
Q
Any problem s w ith th e p ro d u c t* !^
ViS .. _t^
*
problems to the e x te n t they a
A
m aterial problems, yes.
* ft 1 '* '7* "
Q Do you have some p e rso n who a d v is e s
you as to what is a m a te r ia l problem and what is n o t?
A J A MWE Se lMlA, Y mR E PaOtReTrIiNaGl ,S E RoVfI C Ec o u r s e , i s In th e
3
1 in s tru e tia n s . So i f an in d iv id u a l Chinks som ething is
2 im portant-ror is going to be im p o rtan t, you probably
3 h e a r a b o u t i t . I f he does n o t , th e odds a r e .good you
4 w ill not,
5 Q So m a te ria l problems would th en be brought to your a tte n tio n by somebody under you as
7 General Manager, is th a t rig h t?
8 A I f he determ ined i t was a m a te ria l
9
problem or probably going to be a m a te ria l one,
* . v. *{*.
10 th en i t ' s an is s u e o f tim ingon I t ,
11 Q You w ere n o t an i n i t i a l , i d e n t i f i e r
V. , 1i 1-
12 o f m a te r ia l problem s? 13 A No.
* '*' *
*1': ...
14 Q You w ere a r e c e iv e r o f them, r i g h t ?
15 A Through a number o f la y e r s o f re v ie w
16 i n g and s i f t i n g , yeah.
17 Q And, I ta k e i t , t h a t u n d er you one
18 o f th o se l e v e l s , th e r e were some m ed ical p e o p le , i s *-
19 t h a t r i g h * t Js
20 No. I have no r e c o l le c tio n o f an y
**s ^
21 m e d ica l p eo p le in an y o f th e o p e r a tio n s t h a t I h ad .
22 Q And w h ile you were G en eral M anager
23 o f th e s e two - - th e y a r e d i v i & n a , i s t h a t r i g h t ? 24 A They a r e d i v i s i o n s , 25 Q G en eral Manager o f th e s e twod i v i s i o n s ,
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
3-
1 d id you have some kind o f a l i n e t h a t g o t you over to
J
2 the M edical Departm ent fo r communication purposes and
3 f o r th e idea o f m a te ria l problems or an y th in g lik e th a t?
4 A W ell, th e re would c e r ta in ly be, i f
5 th e re were a m a te ria l problem tu rn up, th e re would be a
6 l i n e to th e M edical D ep artm en t, y e s . You would h e a r
7 from the M edical Departm ent, t h a t 's c o rre c t.
8 Q So i f I u n d e rs ta n d w hat y o u 'r e s a y in g ,
9 th e n , somewhere below you when you were G eneral
10
. -***7
o f th e s e d iv isio n s th e r e would be some mechanism
''ir.*
11 a t l e a s t , somebody th e r e would know to r e p o r t a m a te r ia l
12 p ro b lem , sa y , in v o lv in g h e a l t h , to th e M edical D ep a rt* .
13 m ent; and ch an ces a r e you would g e t t h a t in fo rm a tio n
14 y o u r s e lf from th e M ed ical D ep artm en t, th e n , i f i t
15 m a te r ia l iz e d and was deemed to be o f enough s ig n i f i -
16 c a n c e t h a t you sh o u ld know a b o u t i t , i s t h a t w hat y o u 'r e
17 s a y in g ?
18 A Yes.
19 Q A ll r i g h t . C a rry in g i t a s te p f u r t h e r , 20 I su p p o se , g e t t i n g th o se m a te r ia l problem s to you was a 21 s p e c i f i c c h a rg e to th e p eo p le un d er you? C e r t a in l y
22 d i d n 't d is c o u ra g e them b rin g in g t h a t s t u f f to you, d id you? 23 A Oh, heavens n o , I d o n 't know t h a t i t
^ ' 24 would have been an y more a s p e c i f i c ch a rg e th a n a dozen 25 o th e r th in g s m ig h t have been a s p e c i f i c c h a rg e . C e r t a i n l y
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
1 th e re would be an understan d in g i f th e re are m a te ria l
2 problem s, yes.
3 Q You need to know a b o u t i t because
4 t h a t 's p a rt of your Job?
5 A T h at's c o rre c t,
Q And is t h a t k in d o f management
7 a p p ro a c h r e f l e c t e d in the Management By R e s u lts Program?
8 A W ell, l e t me go b ack to t h a t one
9 more tim e w ith you. T h at program would n o t s p e c if y t h a t ...
10 s o r t o f d e t a i l , i t would n o t co v er t h a t w ith some a p e c i- :
11 f i c l t y , take, im p o rta n t em erging problem s up th e l i n e ,
12 i t w o u ld n 't do t h a t .
. ;
13 Q I u n d e rs ta n d t h a t , b u t was th e o v e r a l l
14 p h ilo s o p h y o f t h a t program c a lc u l a te d to se e to i t t h a t
15 y ou, s a y , a s th e G en eral Manager o f th e d iv is io n a r e 1 k e p t inform ed o f th o se k in d s o f th in g s ?
17 A S u re .
18 Q In o th e r words - 19 ` A S u re .
20 Q There Is a p o s itiv e p ressu re in th a t
21 program t o g e t t h a t to you and th e n , I su p p o se, p a r t
22 o f your a c c o u n t a b i l i t y w ould be to g e t i t to th e n e x t 23 im p o rta n t? 24 A T here i s a p r e s s u r e in th e program 25 t o have th e c o r p o r a tio n a c t r e s p o n s ib ly , and t o t h a t e n d ,
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E
3<
1 w h ate v er one needs Co do to a c t r e s p o n s ib ly i s p a r t
2 of th a t program, no q u estio n .
3 Q I su p p o se , th e f u r t h e r down you g e t ,
4 th e more r e s p o n s i b i l i t y th e s e v a r io u s m anagers have f o r
5 f i l l i n g in the d e ta il w ith in the purview of th a t p h ilo s cphy a s i t r e l a t e s to t h e i r s p e c i f i c jo b , r ig h t?
7 A W ell, the s ty l e o f management, as
8 I say, is ty p ic a l of most la rg e o rg a n iz a tio n a l s ty le s .
9 Says you d e a l w ith the problems you1
`^
io h a n d lin g a t your l e v e l , o th e rw is e e v e ry th in g goes-^tK''-'
11 So you fu n d a m e n ta lly t r y to h a n d le th e is s u e s a n d Mp ro b -
12 lems and c irc u m s ta n c e s you c a n . F a i l i n g t h a t , yott'JK it'
13 them up.
14 Q And d id you, f in d d u rin g your te n u re
15 a s G en eral Manager o f th e s e two d iv is o n s and r e a l l y ,
1 I suppose - - Were you a G en e ra l Manger o f th e S p e c i a lt y
17 C hem ical D iv is io n ?
18 A Y es.
19 Q So th atis th r e e g e n e ra l m a n a g e rsh ip s , 20 I g u e s s , on th e l i n e ?
21 A Uh huh (y e s) . 22 Q Did you f in d t h a t t h a t s y s te m w rk e d 23 p r e t t y w e l l , t h a t you w ere in fo rm ed o f problem s t h a t 24 p eo p le th o u g h t w ere m a te r ia l ? In o th e r w o rd s, you 25 w e r e n 't s u r p r i s e d , w ere you, d u rin g t h a t . p e r i o d o f tim e
JA M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G SERVICE
3'
j
J *'
1 2 3 4 5
6
7 8 9 10 u 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
t h a t th e r e was some f e s t e r i n g p ro b le m 'down h e r e th a t
nobody ever to ld you ab o u t? Most o f i t firth i t s way
t o you t h a t was o f some im p o rta n ce?
A Yes, I guess th a t's a f a ir statem en t.
Although, there*s always a tendency in a larg e organiza-
tio n to try and solve the problem y o u rse lf a t your
le v e l b efo re you take i t up. T h a t's in h e re n t in a b ig
o r g a n iz a tio n . So w h eth er you an d I would make th e same Judgment i f the problem came up w ith th e tim e lin e ss- i t 'i ; : '
sh o u ld have come up is h ig h ly u n l i k e l y .
/
Q O.K. So y o u 'r e w o rk in g away h a re
on the lin e as a G en eral M anager o f a d iv is io n ?
A Uh huh (y e s) .
Q How lo n g d id t h a t c o n tin u e ? Y o u 're
In '77.
A I th in k t h a t was u n t i l th e end o f 1977.
Q And w hat happened th e n ?
A Then I was made V ice P r e s id e n t and
Ma.nag in g D irac t o r o f th e Com m ercial P ro d u c ts Company.
Q Now, i s t h a t s t i l l a l i n e jo b ?
A T h a t's a lin e jo b . T hat was a promo-
tio n to the head o f an o p e ra tin g company as opposed to
a d iv is io n . D ivisions re p o rt to companies in the then stru c tu re .
Q 1 understand th a t's su b je c t to change
-
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
1 3;
1 from time to tim e.
-
2
-.
?A
W ell, th a t's r ig h t,
3 Q But during th a t period of tim e, in
4 any ev en t, d iv isio n s re p o rted to companies?
5 A R ight.
Q And com panies to c o r p o r a te s t a f f ?
7 A W ell, n o t to corporate s ta f f , but to
8 an E xecutive Vice P re sid e n t.
-9 Q O.K. And w hat d id th e Com m ercial
10 P ro d u c ts Company do?
' ,'
li A I t had, l e t 's s e e , th re e elem enta to
12 i t . I t had th e E le c tr o n ic s D iv is i o n , w hich fu n d a m e n t? lly
13 m anufactured sem ico n d u cto r g rad e s i l i c o n , F is c h e r Con 14 t r o l s , w hich is in th e v a lv e r e g u l a t o r c o n t r o l i n s t r u
15 m e n tatio n b u s in e s s , and M onsanto E nviro-C hem , w hich 1 d e sig n s and b u ild s s u l f u r i c p l a n t s , m is t e l i m i n a t o r s , 17 c a t a l y s t s f o r th e s u l f u r i c a c i d p l a n t s . I guess t h a t
18 was i t . F u n d am en tally n o n -c h e m ic a l b u s in e s s e s . They 19 mads, we would c a l l i t , th in g s an d n o t pounds o f p ro d u c t. 20 Q You know how- o ld th e Com m ercial 21 P ro d u c ts D iv is io n is o r was a t t h a t tim e , w h eth e r i t 22 was known by t h a t name o r n o t? ' You know how lo n g th e 23 com pany's been in t h a t end o f th e m arket? 24 A We had a Com m ercial P ro d u c ts Company 25 f o r some y e a r s . I d o n 't know w hat some i s . F our o r f i v e
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
-' J
.
1 y e a rs maybe b e fo re t h a t , b u t i t d id n ' t n e c e s s a r i l y lo o k
2 th e same in each o f th o se y e a r s . We would r o l l b u s in e s s e s
3 in and out of them.
4 Q Enviro-Chem made eq u ip m en t f o r
5 em ission abatem ent and th a t s o rt of thing?
6 A Scrubbers. Fundam entally the equiva-
7 lent of scrubbers.
8 Q I take i t from what you're saying
9 t h a t t h a t k in d o f b u sin e ss was r e l a t i v e l y new to Monsanto?^.:
10 I t w asn' t th e re tw en ty y e a rs ?
' `V*/v>V
11 A No. S i l i c o n we had been in c lo s e 12 to tw enty y e a rs . The F is c h e r C o n tro ls we a c q u ir e d l a r ; V i*
13 1969, and Enviro-Chem had been aro u n d - - We had been 14 in th e s u l f u r i c a c id p la n t b u s in e s s f o r a number o f
15 y e a r s , so I would sa y th e y w ere n o t new b u s in e s s e s . Ten
16 to tw enty y e a rs . 17 Q S u lf u r ic a c id b u s in e s s tw en ty y e a rs ? 18 A Y es. W ell, t h a t ' s b u ild in g p l a n t s . 19 T h at i s n ' t making s u l f u r i c a c i d . 20 Q But i t had to do w ith th e te c h n o lo g y 21 o f em issio n ab atem en t o r c o n tr o l? 22 A Not th e s u l f u r i c a c i d p l a n t . T h a t 's 23 ta k in g Monsanto te c h n o lo g y f o r a d e s ig n and c o n s t r u c t i o n 24 o f p la n ts and b u ild in g a p l a n t . I f you' r e a company 25 t h a t w ants a s u l f u r i c a c i d p l a n t , w e' l l b u ild you one
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
1L
1 f o r X p r i e s , The r e s t o f Enviro-Chem waa In v o lv ed in
2 the design and sale of systems to - -
3 Q Like, dust control?
4 A Yeah. S02, fo r example.
5 Q Is th a t a p re tty old b u sin e ss, too? A Yeah.
7 Q What a b o u t c o n trf. o f H2S? Was t h a t
8 J u s t a b u sin e ss g e n e ra lly i f th e r e was a method f o r
9 c o n tr o l o f em issio n s o f a p a r t i c u l a r th in g , y o u 'd t r y ; ^-f';.:
10 to i d e n t i f y i t and go a f t e r i t ?
;
11 A Yeah. But i t was fu n d a m e n ta lly a n 12 S02 e m issio n b u s in e s s . 13 Q And p a r t o f t h i s b u s in e s s , I su p p o se , 14 was to s t a y c u r r e n t w ith co n tem p o rary te c h n iq u e s f o r 15 c o n t r o l l i n g S02 e m is s io n s , c o n t r o l , o r co n tem p o rary 16 te c h n iq u e f o r m a n u fa c tu rin g , b u ild in g and d e s ig n in g 17 p la n ts f o r th e m an u factu re o f S02? 18 A They have fu n d a m e n ta lly made th e same 19 p ro d u c t fo r a number o f y e a r s . I t ' s n o t a w ide ra n g e 20 o f p r o d u c t. I t ' s fu n d a m e n ta lly a p ro d u c t we have s o ld 21 and c o n tin u e d to s e l l i n t o th e m ark et p la c e . 22 Q A ll r i g h t . So y o u 're Managing D ir e c to r 23 o f t h i s company now by th e end o f *77? 24 A Uh huh ( y e s ) . 25 Q What happened n e x t?
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
4:
1 *2
3
an d a g r e e d t h a t he may r e a d th e m a te r ia ls betw een mark "A" and "B1* an d i t w i l l be noted In the record as such. E xhibit
4 336 has been marked HAM th ro u g h "B ",
5 an d th e m a te r ia ls betw een th e l e t t e r s !IA"
6 an d 11B11 have been s t i p u l a t e d as re a d by
7 the deponent.
8 MR. PLESKA: I t w i l l be ta k en th e
9 w itn e s s re a d th e docum ent from p o in ts MAf*
10
to n Bn i n t o th e r e c o r d .
x'<;.S ' '* **.{
11 Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) Now, th a n k you*
12 L e t me a s k you, t h i s document makes
13 r e f e r e n c e to a S u sk in d s tu d y . Do you know what s tu d y
14 t h i s docum ent i s r e f e r r i n g to ?
15 A T his i s th e s tu d y w rapped aro u n d th e
16 N itr o s i t u a t i o n . 17 Q And i t ' s th e same one t h a t you have 18 b een t a l k i n g a b o u t today? 19 X A Y es. 20 Q Do you know o f a n y o th e r S u sk in d 21 s t u d i e s o th e r th a n t h i s one on th e N itr o work fo rc e ? 22 A None o th e r th a n my h e a r in g o f th e 23 ones t h a t w ere co n d u c ted nany y e a rs b e f o r e by D r. S u sk in d , 24 Q Arid you w i l l n o te i n th e t h i r d p a r a 25 g ra p h o f t h a t e x h i b i t a r e f e r e n c e to 100,000 t o 150,000
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
67
,, '
1
A W ell, in th e end o f '7 8 I became
W'
2 V ice P re sid e n t and Managing D ire c to r of the in d u s tr ia l
3 Chem icals Company.
4 Q So t h a t 's th e same l e v e l jo b ?
5 A Same le v e l jo b b u t now a b ig g e r o p e ra tio n
6 Q Now, was th e N itr o P la n t In clu d e d
7 in th a t company?
8 A Yes.
9
Q
Now,
is
th a t
the
f irs t
tim e
yott
h a d ^ i^
\ *
* i . **
10 a n y r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r th e N itr o P la n t?
11 A Y es. W ell, you sa y an y r e s p o n s i b i l i t y ,
12
l e t me add to t h a t . The a n s w e r's c o r r e c t , b u t I was .
*
13 c o n n e c te d w ith i t e a r l i e r b ecau se we made a p ro d u c t in
14 th e S p e c i a lt y C hem icals Company a t N itr o .
15 Q What p ro d u c t was th a t?
16 A But we w ere n o t a c c o u n ta b le f o r th e
17 p l a n t . P ro d u c t c a l l e d m e th io n in e h y d ro x y -a n a lo g , c a l l e d
18 MHA, so 1 knew th e r e was su ch a th in g a s th e N itr o P l a n t .
19 Q I s t h a t a b o u t a l l you knew a b o u t i t ?
20 A J u s t a b o u t. I t ' s a vary s n a i l o p e r a tio n
21 t h a t th e m a n u fa c tu rin g happened to ta k e p la ce t h e r e .
22 Q A ll r i g h t . So how long d id you s t a y
23 in t h a t p o s it io n ? T h a t's a b o u t in *78 o r '7 9 .
s. / 24
A That should have been the end of *78.
25 I g u e s s , u n t i l '8 1 . A bout t h r e e y e a r s .
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
2
1 Q O.K. And when d id you move to
2 your present position?
;
3 A Then I became E xecu tiv e Vice P re sid e n t
4 and th e I n d u s t r i a l C hem icals Company r e p o r te d to me a lo n g
5 w ith some o th e r s .
Q What o th e r companies re p o rte d to you?
7 A M onsanto P la s t ic s .and R esins and the
8 E le c tr o n ic s D iv is io n w hich we to o k o u t s e p a r a t e l y from
9 th e I n d u s t r i a l Chem icals Company.
:'
10 Q Any o th e r com panies r e p o r t to you? n A W e ll, we s p l i t o u t some. They w e r e n 't
12 a c t u a l l y com panies th e n . We s p l i t o u t - - No. Maybe t h a t -,***' 13 was i t a t t h a t p o in t in tim e . I 'm s t i l l E x e c u tiv e Vice 14 P r e s id e n t b u t I d o n 't do th e same th in g . 15 Q You have a l i t t l e d i f f e r e n t jo b ? 16 A R ig h t. Now I o v e rse e F is c h e r C o n tr o ls , 17 th e e l e c t r o n i c s company w hich we have made i n t o an o p e r a t 18 in g company, th e E n g in e e re d P ro d u c ts D iv is io n , w hich i s 19 a new d iv is io n we c r e a te d l a s t S ep tem b er, and th e M onsanto 20 O il Company 21 Q Y o u 're f e i r l y w e llo u t o f c h e m ic a ls , 22 a r e n ' t you? 23 A B a s i c a l l y , y e s . 24 Q Then t h a t becametr u e when? 25 A The end o f *82.
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
A`
*
1
f
\
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
J 25
Q So you have been f a i r l y w e ll weaned from the chem ical b u siness?
A Yeah. (Whereupon a s h o r t r e c e s s was ta k e n ,
a f te r which the fo llow ing proceedings were had:) Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) A l l r i g h t . Mr. H arbison, I ' l l hand you w h a t's been marked P l a i n t i f f s ' E x h ib it #330 (Mosanto #8323075 through #8323079), an d ask you to take a look a t th a t. A O.K. Q A ll r i g h t . " Mr. H a rb iso n , you have -/ had an opportunity to look a t E x h ib it #330, and i f I m ight b r i e f l y d e s c r ib e i t , i t a p p e a rs to be a memorandum on Monsanto le tte r h e a d , is th a t c o r r e c t? A C orrect. Q And i t ' s d a te d JVme 2 5 , 1979, ap p a re n tly .a u th o re d by W illiam J . M cC arville, and
d ir e c te d to M. C. T h ro d a h l, and y o u 'r e i n d i c a t e d a s
having received a copy of i t w ith i t s attach m en ts, rig h t? A R ight. Q Do you have a n y re a s o n t o b e l ie v e you
d id n 't get a copy of th a t? A No. Q I would lik e fo r you to tu rn to page
*
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E -
44
1 4 of th e e x h ib it, which should be the th ird page of
2 the attachm ent. At the top of the page there is a
3 r e f e r e n c e made to a DMEH s tu d y . I t ' s documented p a r a
4 g rap h A. You se e th a t?
5 MR, PLESKA: I d o n 't th in k we have i t ,
Q (By Mr. C a lw e ll) Mr. H arb iso n , th e
7 pape I want you to look a t is a Monsanto document
8 #8323078. At the top of the page y o u 'll sea a para
9 g rap h l e t t e r e d A r e f e r r i n g to a DMEH study* You s e * " th a t?
10 A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
Z i. .
11 Q D u rin g th e p e rio d o f tim e t h a t t h i s
12 memo i s d a te d you w ere th e Manager o f th e I n d u s t r i a l
13 C hem icals Company, i s t h a t r i g h t ?
14 A T h a t's c o r r e c t , I was Managing D ir e c
15 t o r o f th e company, uh huh ( y e s ) .
16 Q And is t h a t th e re a s o n you w ere c o p ied ?
17 A Y es, u n d o u b te d ly .
18 Q Do you know w hat th e DMEH s tu d y was 19 o r i s ? 20 A I r e c a l l h e a rin g i t . I c a n n o t t e l l 21 you th e s p e c i f i c s o f i t . R eading i t does n o t s u r p r i s e
22 cue, b u t I c a n n o t t e l l you th e s p e c i f i c s o f i t . ' 23 Q You know w hat you can t e l l me a b o u t i t ? 24 A A bout th e DMEH stu d y ? 25 Q Y es.
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
. A!
1 A Only s e e in g t h a t trig g e rs In my mind
2 th e f a c t t h a t i t was e x a c tly what i t s a y s , an exam ina-
3 t i o n o f em ployee h e a l t h re c o rd s by DMEH. T hat makes
4 s e n s e to me a s I r e c a l l i t , b u t I c a n 't r e c a l l a n y th in g
5 beyond th a t about i t .
6 Q Do you know w hat em ployees a r e r e -
7 ferred to there?
8 A I do n o t s p e c if ic a lly .
9 q Do you know g e n e r a lly o r do you .h,,t.a' ve,-v
10 a ny r e c o l l e c t i o n ?
..
11 A We a r e ta lk in g a b o u t N itr o em p lo y ee s9
12 b u t w h eth er i t was a l l N itr o em ployees or 'a s e l e c t r g r o u p i ....- j
13 I do n o t know.
14 Q So a s f a r a s you r e c a l l , i t was th e
15 N i t r o em p lo y ees, r i g h t ?
16 A Y es.
17 Q Do you knew why th e s tu d y was u n d e rta k e n !
18 . A My r e c o l l e c t i o n i s th e S te e lw o rk e rs
19 w anted to b r in g in D r, S e l i k o f f to examine a group o f 20 em ployees t h a t M onsanto a g re e d to . Dr. S u sk in d , 1 t h i n k ,
21 had been in v o lv e d in th e S ev eso , I t a l y , s i t u a t i o n . I th in k 22 he had done a rev ie w o r a s tu d y , w h atev er you w ant to * 23 c a l l i t , on N itr o em ployees a t some e a r l i e r d a t e . I 24 th in k he th o u g h t i t was h e l p f u l to h is rev ie w o f th e 25 I t a l i a n s i t u a t i o n to r e d o , r e lo o k a t th e N itr o p o p u la tio n .
'
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
t
1 My r e c o l l e c t i o n i s t h a t he even' p ro p o sed t h a t . We a g re e d
2 w ith t h a t . Thought i t was u s e f u l to h^ve a n o th e r view
3 of the N itro p o p u latio n in a d d itio n to Dr. S e lik o f f 's .
4 1 g u e s s , my r e c o l l e c t i o n i s t h a t was to be augm ented
5 by th e DMEH rev ie w o f r e c o r d s . I g u e s s , t h a t 's a b o u t r.
a s c l e a r a s I can be on i t .
7 Q As th e G en eral Managing D ir e c to r ,
8 is th a t the title ?
9
A
(Nods head a f f i r m a t i v e l y .)
. ri-v..
10 Q Was t h i s DMSH s tu d y an d th e S t e a l -
11 w o rk e rs ' s tu d y an d th e S eveso i n c id e n t and a l l t h a t t h a t
12 you j u s t ta lk e d a b o u t, was t h a t one o f th o se m a t e r i a l
13 . problem s t h a t we ta lk e d a b o u t e a r l i e r t h a t worked i t s
14 way up to y o u r p o s itio n ?
15 A Y es, b u t we a r e in a s l i g h t l y d i f f e r e n t
l c o n t e x t. When we ta lk e d a b o u t i t e a r l i e r , I was G en eral
17 Manager o f th e S p e c i a lt y C hem icals D iv is io n . T hat w ould
13 h av e been a n d w as, b ecau se Lee M i l l e r , you s e e , was th e n
19 th e G en e ra l Manager o f S p e c i a lt y C h em icals. T hat 20
G eneral Manager would have been .p rin c ip a lly in charge 21 o f t h a t . So th e is s u e - - I 'm n o t a t a l l s u g g e s tin g 22 i t i s n ' t a n is s u e o f im p o rta n c e b u t t h e 1is s u e w ould 23
have been more c e n te re d on M ille r in h is r o le a s G eneral 24
M anager th a n i t now w ould have on me a s th e M anaging 25
D ir e c to r w ith M il le r r e p o r tin g to me, so th e two s i t u a t i o n s
JA M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G SE R V IC E
L"
1 a re not com parable,
2
1... Q
Do you r e c a l l -- an d t h i s may be a
3 poor choice o f words -- b u t what your involvem ent was
4 w ith th i s g e n e ra l is s u e s u rro u n d in g the DMH s tu d y
5 th a t you reco u n ted fo r us?
A I d o n 't re c a ll any p a rtic u la r in
7 volvem ent in the BMEH s tu d y . My r e c o l l e c t i o n i s sim ply
8 hearing about i t . I have no re c o lle c tio n of taking
9 an y a c t i o n on i t . H earin g a b o u t i t , I g u e s s , S 'i 10 q I f you would c o n tin u e to h o ld Ott t o :^ 11 E x h ib it 330, I 'd l i k e to hand you 331 (M onsanto #8322875), 12 and a s k you to ta k e a lo o k a t t h a t , i f you w ould, s i r * . 13 A Uh huh ( y e s ) . 14 Q A ll r i g h t . Mr. H p rb iso n , c o u ld you 15 i d e n t i f y t h a t docum ent f o r th e r e c o r d , p le a s e . 16 A Itis a memorandum from Lee A. M i l l e r , 17 d a te d May 10, 1979, s u b j e c t i s N itr o S a fe ty /P R Program 18 t o me. 19 Q And i s t h a t th e same Lee A. M il le r 20 who would be th e G en e ra l Manager o f th e 21 A - - S p e c i a l t y C hem icalsD iv is io n . 22 Q Yes. Who a t t h a t p o in t i n tim e was 23 a n sw e rin g to you a s M anaging D ir e c t o r o f I n d u s t r i a l 24 C hem icals Company? 25
A T h at's c o rre c t.
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
Li
1 Q And i f you w ould, a i r , p le a s e re a d
2 the f i r s t two paragraphs o f th a t l e t t e r .
3 A "You ask ed f o r my view s on th e
4 a tta c h e d p ro p o s a l from M e ssrs. McKee an d \v ilk in s . I
5 b eliev e i t is a w ell thought through and sound approach to a d i f f i c u l t an d r i s k y s i t u a t i o n . My p rim a ry co n cern
7 is the re la tiv e tim ing of the S e lik o ff and Suskind stu d y ."
8 Q O.K. Thank you, s i r .
9 Now, do you know w hat you w e r e - a s k l n g ^
10
fo r a rep o rt on, whrt study, in th a t le tte r ?
*' * ; . . , i
11 A I r e a l l y d o n 't . I guess I d a n * t,
12 Q VJas i t th e DMSH s tu d y or anything!..- - > 13 co n n ected w ith t h a t s e t o f c irc u m s ta n c e s t h a t you d e s 14 c r ib e d f o r us e a r l i e r ?
15 A The a tta c h e d p r o p o s a l to w hich he
16 r e f e r s , I d o n 't know w hat t h a t i s . 17 Q I d o n 't e i t h e r .
18 A T h a t's n o t a s tu d y . T h at must have
- - *v *
19 been some 'p ro p o s a l t o , I guess - - W e ll, I r e a l l y d o n 't 20 knew what th e th in g i s . The a tta c h e d p ro p o sa l is n o t 21 a t ta c h e d to t h i s co v e r memo. I d o n 't know w hat i t i s . 22 Q A l l r i g h t . Do you know w hat th e r i s k y 23 s i t u a t i o n is t h a t 's r e f e r r e d to th e r e ? 24
A I d o n 't know from my r e c o l l e c t i o n 25 th e n . I c o u ld i n t e r p r e t i t from t h i s .
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
4
1 Q What would be your in te r p r e t a ti o n ?
2 A I would in te r p r e t i t th a t M ille r
3 r thought tha release of the S e lik o ff study out of sync
4 w ith the re le a se of the Susklnd stu d y would give an
5 imbalanced p ic tu re of what the r e s u lts of the stu d y might be.
7 Q Now, th e S e l i k o f f s tu d y and S u sk in d
8 stu d y r e f e r re d to in E x h ib it 331, a re th o se th e two
9 s tu d ie s you were r e f e r r i n g to when you were e v p i^
10
*
the DMSK stu d y you were d e s c r ib in g e a r l i e r in yoin& tiB 1--"':?
11 tim ony?
12 A Yes.
v\~v.. y
13 Q A ll r i g h t . I f you would tu r n b ack to
14 E x h ib it 330 on th e same page t h a t we w ere t a l k i n g a b o u t.
15 R eferen ce is made in the p a ra g ra p h u n d e r DMEH S tu d y to
l a c o n t r a c t la b o r a to r y in P h ila d e lp h ia . Do you have an y
17 id e a what la b o r a to r y t h a t i s ?
18 A I do n o t.
19 ' Q In your p o s i t i o n a s a D ir e c to r o f th e
20 I n d u s t r i a l Chem icals Company, d id you have r e s p o n s i b i l i t y
21 f o r th e b u d g e tin g and e x p e n d itu re s o f money f o r t h a t
22 company?
23 A Yes. 24
Q Did you have to approve th a budgets 25 and e x p e n d itu r e s , t h a t k in d o f th in g ?
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
* L^
r*
1'
1 A W ell, a t th a t le v ! I would approve
2 th e b u d g e t, b u t th e b u d g et Is - - how do I \ a n t to sa y i t -- 3 I t ' s ag g reg ated . There a re n o t 8000 lin e s o f c a te g o r ie s , 4 There is a lin e and y o u 'll approve i t . Expenditures 5 depend on th e s iz e o f th e e x p e n d itu re s and th e n a tu re
6 of it.
7 Q During the f is c a l year th a t a budget
8 would a p p ly to , i f th e re was a r e q u e s t f o r a budget
9 supplem ent or budget tra n s fe r concerning an item th a t
10
was n o t contem plated a t th e tim e th e budget was draw n,
f
11 would t h a t be th e k in d o f th in g t h a t would be b ro u g h t 12 to your a t t e n t i o n ? 13 A I f i t was o f s i g n i f i c a n c e , y e s .
.
14 Q Was th e r e a d o l l a r l e v e l c u t o f f f o r
15 t h a t o r a g e n e ra l ran g e t h a t people u n d er you would know 16 t h a t t h i s i s som ething t h a t H r. Har b is on r e a l l y ought
17 to ta k e a lo o k a t ?
18 A C e r t a in l y th e r e w ould be a d o l l a r 19 l e v e l i f v t - a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t s h i f t i n g m illio n s o f 20
d o lla rs around. 21 Q S u re . But p r a c t i c a l l y sp e a k in g - 22
A P r a c tic a lly speaking, you could 23
s h i f t s u b s t a n t i a l sums o f money i n s m a lle r in c re m e n ts 24
from one c a te g o ry to th e o th e r and t h a t would be a t th e 25
d is c re tio n of th e G eneral Manager in running h is b u sin e ss.
' J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
5
` ''
,
I Q Say, $150,000?
2
.A
W ell, I t m ight depend on what i t ' s f o r .
3 150 m ig h t Otr m ig h t n o t have come to me. I t would j u s t
4 depend on th e n a t u r e o f i t .
5 Q I f i t was f o r a h e a lth s tu d y , would
6 th a t be som ething th a t would be brought to your a tte n tio n ?
7 A 150 f o r a h e a lth s tu d y , t h a t 's b e-
8 tween p o ssib le and lik e ly , y es. 9 Q That would n o t be an expenditur*^ 10 you e x p e c te d t o se e in a g iv e n y e a r? 11 A U n less we had p u t i t in th e b u d g et 12 a h e ad o f tim e . 13 Q And I was sp e a k in g o f - -
14 A E x tr a o r d in a r y . 15 Q Yes.
16 A I f i t had been in th e b u d g e t, n o .
17 q Do you know i f th e b u d g et f o r th e
18 f i s c a l y e ar r t h a t would in c lu d e June 2 9 , *79, in c lu d e d 19 inbney f o r 1th e D>H s tu d y o r th e S u sk in d stu d y ?
20 A I r e a l l y d c n 't . I c o u l d n 't sa y .
21 q I f you would new tu r n to th e seco n d
22 page o f E x h ib it 330, w hich i s th e f i r s t page o f th e
23 a tta c h m e n t.
24 A Uh huh ( y e s ) . S t a r t i n g " S i t u a t i o n s " ?
25 q Y es.
* J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
V
) -
__ ^
I A A ll rig h t.
2 q. Under Rcxnan Num eral I I th e r e c a l l e d
3 "M ajor I s s u e s 11 th e r e a r e f o u r s u b je c ts i d e n t i f i e d a s
4 m ajor is s u e s . Would th o se item s be o f th e c a te g o ry o f
5 m a te ria l problems th a t would have g o tte n to your le v e l
6 in a c c o rd a n c e w ith th e p o lic y t h a t we e a r l i e r ta lk e d a b o u t?
7 A That would g e n e ra lly be handled by
8 th e G en e ra l M anager, b u t I w ould sa y i t would come up
9 in p ro b a b ly th e form i t came u p . So I ' d have to gay..
10 y e s , i t would be c a l l e d to my a t t e n t i o n .
/
11 q So, f o r ex am p le, m ajor is s u e number
12 f o u r th e r e i s , " I s th e r e a c o n tin u in g exposure o f B ig' 13 n if ic a n c e t o d io x in s o r o th e r compounds in the N ltr o
.
14 P la n t to d a y ?" T hat w ould be a m a te r ia l problem t h a t
15 w ould f in d i t s e l f t o you?
16 A T h at p ro b a b ly w ould. I t ' s l i s t e d
17 h e r e , so i t o b v io u s ly came up .
18 Q New, once a m a te r ia l problem g e ts 19 t o you, a n d a s you t e s t i f i e d , t h i s was a form i t w ould 20 f i n d i t s way to you, in a c c o rd a n c e w ith your Management 21 f o r R e s u lts Program , w hat a c t i o n , i f a n y , would you ta k e ? 22 A W e ll, t h a t ' s a s i t u a t i o n w here I 23
would look a t i t and pro b ab ly ta lk to th e G eneral Manager 24
a b o u t , l t . I f I w ere convinced t h a t he was p ro ceed in g 25
alo n g a p ath th a t seemed reaso n ab le and they were d riv in g
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E
5:
1 to re a c h a c o n c lu sio n to th o se I s s u e s , t h a t 's th e way 2 i t would ru n , and he would rem ain fundam entally acco u n t 3 able for th a t. 4 Q In th is case i t would beLee M iller? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Did you in f a c t t a l k to Mr. M ille r 7 ab o u t, fo r exam ple, m ajor issu e number fo u r there? 8 A I d o n 't remember i t . I do n o t know. 9 Q Do you know i f you to o k an y a c tio n ; , 10 r e g a r d in g m ajor is s u e number f o u r? 11 A I have no r e c o l l e c t i o n o f t h a t . 12 Q Do you know i f some c o n c lu s io n was 13 re a c h e d w ith r e f e r e n c e to n a j o r is s u e number fo u r? 14 A I d o n 't rem em ber. 15 Q So you d o n 't knoww h e th e r i t was d e 16 te rm in ed w h eth er a c o n tin u in g ex p o su re t o d io x in was s i, 17 n i f i c a n t a t N itr o to d ay ? 18 A I do n o t know w ith o u t g o in g b ack and 19 ex am in in g r e c o r d s , I d o n 't know. 20 Q What re c o rd s would yxi need to make a 21 d e te r m in a tio n ?
A I d o n 't know w h a t's t h e r e , Q You j u s t d o n 't know? ^_' A I d o n 1t know. Q You d o n 't have a n y id e a w here to go
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
I
I fo r an answer to that?
^'
2
A X would assume e i t h e r in DMEH o r
3 w ith L e e M il le r th e r e may be some answ er to I t i f i n -
4 deed th e re a re f i l e s l e f t from th a t.
5 Q And w hat would have happened to th e
6 file s i f they are not le ft?
7 A I would assume th e y went out under
8 the re te n tio n and d e s tru c tio n p o lic y of the company.
9 Q I g a th e r from y o u r te s tim o n y t h a t * . .V
10 even though th e s e a r e denom inated m ajo r is s u e s a t y o u r - i 11 l e v e l , th e y d i d n 't e n jo y an y p a r t i c u l a r predom inance 12 o v e r o th e r i s s u e s , is t h a t r i g h t ?
13 A I s a id to you t h a t i s a m ajor i s s u e
14 f o r a G en eral Manager an a he would sen d t h a t , a s ha
15 o b v io u sly d id , send t h a t fo rw a rd ; b u t you w ould fu n d a 16 m e n ta lly lo o k to th e h a n d lin g o f t h a t is s u e from w hat
17 we knew a b o u t i t a t t h a t tim e u n d er a G en e ra l M a n a g e r's 18 a e g i s . T h at d o e s n 't sa y t h a t ' s n o t a n i s s u e . I t
19 say s he w i empowered in a p o s i t i o n and a l e v e l to 20 h a n d le a n is s u e l i k e t h a t .
21 Q Did you fellow up on i t to se e how he 22 h an d led i t ? 23 A I do n o t rem em ber. 24 q How w ould you have fo llo w e d up on 25 som ething lik e t h a t in a c c o rd a n c e w ith your jo b ?
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
5
1 A I would have e ith e r g o tte n a l a t e r i
W 2 r e p o r t from him on i t o r had a m eetin g w ith him on i t .
3 Q You would have r e q u e s te d a memo
4 from him?
5 A Yes, c e rta in ly p o ssib le .
6 Q And i f you had done t h a t , th e memo 7 would have bean f ile d in the o rd in ary course of running
8 your o ffice, right?
9
A I would assume so .
:
* m. *
* * -
'10
\Q
** t (
1 M
Or y o u 'd know w here to go lo o k f o r a *
11 memo lik e t h a t , th e n , r i g h t ?
12
A W ell, I can t e l l you, y e s , I ' d know
-
v . 13 w here to lo o k ; b u t my f i l e s a r e p ro b a b ly two c a b in e ts
14 an d t h e r e 's n o th in g from th e MIC days in them now.
15 W hether th e r e i s som ething somewhere e l s e , .1 d o n 't know.
16 Q Where would th o se f i l e s be from MIC
17 days?
18 A They a r e p ro b a b ly d e s tr o y e d . I t 19 comes o u t th e d o o rs and windows e v e n tu a l ly . 20
q I f you were going to look and se e i f 21 th o se f i l e s w ere d e s tro y e d , w here would you go? 22
A I 'd go to my s e c r e t a r y an d a s k h e r . 23
q What is your s e c r e t a r y 's name? 24
A Mrs. Heuseck, H -e -u -s-e -c -k . . 25
q Has she been a lo n g - s ta n d in g s e c r e t a r y
i J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
1 of yours ?
2 A S in ce 179.
3 Q I f you l i k e , you can hand me 330 and
4 331. Mr. H arb iso n , I w ant to hand you w h a t's been marked
5 E x h ib its 332 (Jionsanto #8322986) and 333 (Monsanto #8323053 and #8323054), and ask you to take a look a t th o se ,
7 A Uh huh (Y es).
8 Q O.K. Mr. H a rb iso n , E x h ib it 332 t h a t
9 you have b e fo re you and y o u 'v e had an o p p o rtu n ity ;.fc o :
10
lo o k a t is c a p tlo n e d 11B udget-M onsanto S tu d y ."
. v :'*:
11 A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
12 Q Do you re c o g n iz e t h a t docum ent? 13 A I r e a l l y don* t . 14 Q Do you r e c a l l e v e r h av in g se e n i t b e f o r e ? 15 A No, I do n o t. 1 q And do you know w hat M onsanto s tu d y 17 i s r e f e r r e d to in t h a t document? 18 A I do n o t. 19 Q Do you know - - an d I r e a l i z e th e 20 document is on i t s face f a i r l y vague as to id e n t i t y - 21 b u t do y>u know who would know a b o u t w hat a p p e a rs t o be a 22 m e d ica l s tu d y o f some k in d ? 23
A I d o n 't . You know, i t has no -- 24
Q I know i t d o e s n 't . 25
A I t has no d a te , no s u b je c t. I d o n 't
J A M ES MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
5
1 knew where you*d go.
2 I f i t did p e rta in to the Suskind
3 s tu d y t h a t y o u ta lk e d a b o u t, who would know ab o u t i t ,
4 i f you knew? Whose jo b would i t be?
5 A Might be M ille r 's .
6 Q M iller, perhaps?
7 A Perhaps.
8 Q A l l r i g h t . I f y o u 'l l new look a t
9 E x h ib it 333. I t ' s on M onsanto l e t t e r h e a d , is i t n o t?
10 A R i g h t . 11 Q And a p p e a rs to be a memorandum d a te d 12 Ju n e 2 0 , 1979, o v e r, looks l i k e , C. J . S m ith 's s ig n a - . '
13 tu r e ?
14 A Uh huh ( y e s ) ,
15 Q And a d d re s s e d to you, is i t n o t?
16 A C o r r e c t.
17 Q Now, in th e f i r s t p a ra g ra p h o f t h a t
18 docum ent i t r e f e r s to th e c o s t o f th e S u sk in d stu d y ?
19
. . 1
'; :^A
Uh huh (ye s ) ,
20
v'.` Q
"To determ ine the long range h e a lth
21 e f f e c t s r e s u l t i n g from w orker ex p o su re o f 2 ,4 ,5 - T
22 fo rm e rly produced a t th e N itr o P la n t sh o u ld be borne
23 e n t i r e l y by MAP f o r th e fo llo w in g r e a s o n s ."
24 A Uh hun ( y e s ) .
25 Q Now, w hat s tu d y i s r e f e r r e d to in t h a t
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
58
* 1 docum ent, I f you know or i f you r e c a l l ?
2
A T h a t' s th e s tu d y we a r e ta lk in g a b o u t
3 t h a t was done a t N itro .
4 Q Do you know w hat k in d o f a s tu d y
5 i t was? Was i t l i k e a m o r b id ity s tu d y o r m o r ta lity ?
6 A I d o n ' t know. I know i t was a g a i n s t
7 th e lo n g term ex p o su re e f f e c t s , b u t I do n o t knew d e t a i l s .
8 Q And do you know i f t h i s was a p a r t
9 o f th e DMEH stu d y ?
^*
10 A W e ll, th e DMEH s tu d y o f m e d i c a l v..
11 re c o rd s and th e S u sk in d s tu d y , w h ate v er he was go in g to
12
d o , w ere p a r a l l e l s t u d i e s , i f you w i l l ; b u t I do n o t, ;.;
-
13 know w h eth e r one c o n t r ib u t e d - - I d o n ' t know w h eth er
14 S u sk in d u sed DMEH. X j u s t d o n 't know.
IS Q You'r e sp e a k in g a b o u t w hat you knew
16 in June o f 1979, i s t h a t r i g h t ?
17 A T h a t's c o r r e c t .
18 Q Have you s u b s e q u e n tly le a rn e d an y
19 more a b o u t w hat th e S u sk in d s tu d y d id ? You t e s t i f i e d 20 w h ate v er he was to do. Did you e v e r le a r n in f a c t w hat
21 he d id 7 22 A You mean in d e t a i l how he co n d u c ted 23 th e s tu d y o r w hat he found? 24
Q J u s t d id you e v e r le a r n an y more a b o u t 25 i t , I ' m i n t e r e s t e d in w hat you know.
' 1 5!J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
1 A My u n d e r s ta n d in g o f w hat he found
2 was ha co u ld fin d no c o r r e l a t i o n betw een th e long term
3 h ealth effects in th a t population and th e ir exposure
4 to d io x in and t h a t i t was n o t o u t o f th e realm o f
5 the normal p o p u latio n . q And where d id you g e t t h a t in fo rm a tio n ?
7 A I don*t remember. 8 Q Now, t h i s docum ent 333, now, you 9 c o r r e c t me i f I 'm w rong, i t a p p e a rs to have som ething^' 10 to do w ith a l l o c a t i o n o f th e c o s t o f t h i s stu d y ? 11 A R ig h t. 12 Q Now, was t h a t so m eth in g t h a t you 13 would have to ap p ro v e in your c a p a c ity a s Managing 14 D ir e c to r o f th e I n d u s t r i a l C hem icals Company? 15 A Yes. I t w ould o n ly be i f wea p p a r e n tly 16 ware -laving a d isa g re e m e n t among two o f th e u n i t s a s 17 to where th e c o s ts sh o u ld be lo g g e d . O th erw ise, I 18 p ro b a b ly would n o t have se e n i t . 19 Q So th e f a c t t h a t you saw i t , i s t h a t 20 i n d i c a t i v e th e r e w as, p e rh a p s , some d is a g re e m e n t on 21 who ought to b e a r th e ex p en se o f t h i s stu d y ? 22 A Y es.
23
Q A ll r i g h t . I guess your company
24
lo s t o u t, r ig h t, and you had to pay fo r it?
25
A You knew, I don' t remember who d id .
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
6
*
^,
'
I q Is t h a t som ething t h a t Lee M ille r
2 ought to kftow?
3 A Who p a id f o r th a t ?
4 Q Yes.
5 A I f th e I n d u s t r i a l C hem icals Company
6 paid fo r i t , undoubtedly Lee M ille r paid fo r i t , so I
7 would guess ha would.
8 q So i f you w anted t o f in d o u t who
9 p a id f o r i t an d how much, youf d go a s k Lee M ille r? ,
10
A I 'd a s k La M ille r.
t
11 q And i f you w anted to knew th e r e s u l t s
12 o f the S uskind s tu d y , who would you a s k ?
13 A M i l l e r , Roush, T h ro d a h l, an y o f them .
14 q A l l r i g h t . And d id you a s k e i t h e r
15 o f th o se gentlem en?
16 A I have no s p e c i f i c r e c o l l e c t i o n o f 17 a s k in g them.
18 q Do you have a n o n - s p e c if i c ? 19 A W e ll, I 'm c o n f id e n t I d id , v 20 q O.K. I f y o u 'd li k e to hand th o se
21 two docum ents b ack to me, w e 'l l p r e s s on w ith a n o t h e r . 22 A l l r i g h t , I w ant to hand you w h a t's b een m arked E x h i b i t 23 #334 (Monsanto #8322987 th ro u g h # 8 3 2 2 9 8 9 ).
24 A O.K. 25 q Mr, H a rb is o a , you h av e had a n opportunity
i J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
6:
> I
1 to lo o k a t E x h ib it 334. Do you r e c a l l h a v in g seen t h a t
r
^ 2 document before?
3 A I don11 r e c a l l .
4 Q The document r e f e r s t o , does I t n o t ,
5 a study of workers Involved in the m anufacture of 2,4,5-T ?
6 A R ight.
7 Q Raymond R. S u sk in d , M.D. Do you know
8 I f t h i s document r e f e r s to th e S u sk in d s tu d y t h a t we
9 have been ta lk in g about?
i
10 A I do n o t s p e c i f i c a l l y knew. ^ 4 '^ ^ ,: ''$ '^
11 Q On page 2 o f th e docum ent a t th e '
12 bottom o f th e page th e r e i s a p a ra g ra p h t h a t b e g in e r v ..:-- ' *v`-' >
13 "Method and Scope o f th e E x a m in a tio n ."
14 A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
15 Q And d e s c rib e d t h e r e i n , b e g in n in g on
16 t h a t page and c o n tin u in g on to th e t h i r d p ag e, a r e a
17 number o f c l i n i c a l t e s t s t h a t a r e d e s c r ib e d a s , " C l i n i c a l 18 L a b o ra to ry Work w i l l in c lu d e ," and t h e r e i s a v e r y lo n g 19 l i s t o f a number o f m e d ica l t e s t s . I f t h i s docum ent 20
p e r ta in e d t o th e S u sk in d s tu d y we a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t 21 an d I f you w anted to f in d o u t who p a id f o r t h a t , i s 22 Lee M ille r th e g entlem an you would in q u ir e o f in th e 23 o r g a n iz a tio n a l scheme o f th in g s ? 24 A I would th in k s o . 25
Q Would t h a t be w here you would go?
- / J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V IC E
6:
1* *
1 Yes,
2 q I 111 hand you w h a t's been rrarked
3 E x h ib it #335 (Monsanto #8322905), w hich a p p e a rs to be
4 a le tte r from C lay to n F. C a l l i s , d a te d May 30, 1979,
5 ad d ressed to you reg ard in g the Suskind stu d y , and a sk
6 you to take a look a t th a t fo r a m inute. .
7'
A Uh huh (y e a ).
8 Q A ll r i g h t , Mr. H arbison, you have
9 had a chance to look a t th a t document, have you n e t t '
10 A Yes.
*"
11 q Is th e r e an y re a s o n to d o u b t t h a t
12 you g o t a copy o f Chat?
VV 13
A No.
14 Q Now, t h a t document r e f e r s to th e
15 S u sk in d h e a l t h s tu d y , does i t n o t?
16 A Uh huh ( y e s ) .
17 Q Do you know w hat S u sk in d h e a l t h s tu d y
18 i s r e f e r r e d to th e re ?
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
A I cannot t e l l from th is s p e c if ic a lly .
Q Then you have no r e c o lle c tio n a s to
what i t would have been, I assume?
jA
X have no re c o lle c tio n of read in g
t h a t docum ent. I d o n 't do u b t b u t t h a t i t came to me,
but I don' t have any re c o lle c tio n o f read in g i t .
Q Do you h av e a n y r e c o l l e c t i o n a s to
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
63
' --
1 w hich Subk in d s tu d y i s r e f e r r e d to th e re ?
O .2
A W all, he lin k s th is Suskind study
3 w ith th e S e lik o ff stu d y , so I would assume i t ' s th e
4 Suskind study a t N itro .
5 Q O.K. And t h a t 18 th e same s tu d y t h a t
6 you e a r l i e r d e s c r ib e d in c o n n e c tio n w ith th e DMEH stu d y ?
7 A Uh huh ( y e a ) .
8 Q Did you tak e p ^ r t a t a l l in a u th o r iz -
9 ing th a t stu d y to be made, or do you r e c a ll?
:r |V~'
10 A W ell, I d o n 't s p e c i f i c a l l y r e c a l l ^ ^
11
j /a u t h o r i z i n g i t , b u t i f I would have h ad i t come t o me
12 f o r a u t h o r i z a t i o n , X would have ap p ro v ed i t , I d o n*'t 'i* 13 have an y problem w ith t h a t , b u t I d o n 't remember s ig n -
14 ln g a s h e e t t h a t s a i d , go w ith t h a t s tu d y .
15 Q T his was one o f th o se m a te r ia l problem s
16 t h a t found i t s way to you. Did you make a n y i n v e s t i g a t i o n
17 a s to th e n a tu r e o f t h i s problem o r why a h e a l t h s tu d y
18 was r e q u ir e d a t a l l ?
19 A W ell, I have no s p e c i f i c r e c o l l e c t i o n 20 o f my c o n d u c tin g a s tu d y o f th e i s s u e , b u t from th e
21 memoranda t h a t have flow ed and on s e e in g th o s e - 22 Q I t ' s a l l p r e t t y h azy r i g h t now? 23 A I'm tr y i n g to remember some o f th e 24
events th a t went on. I d o n 't have any doubt but what 25
I m ight have had a g iv e -a n d -ta k e w ith some o f th e s e p eo p le
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
64
on t h i s s tu d y . I would n o t have j u s t to ss e d memoranda
in th a wasta b a s k e t and s a id , w e ll, ru n alo n g and do i t ,
b u t 1 cannot r e c a l l f o r you a s p e c if ic s e t o f circum
stan ces or a m eeting on i t .
Q This whole p erio d o f tim e, th en , around
th is m a te ria l problem is something th a t's p re tty hazy to
you?
A W ell, i t i s . Alth<xigh, the problem
i t s e l f is n o t hazy. I t 's th a t 1 have no re c o lle c tio n
'
o f N itro or S e lik o ff or Suskind or any of those, X do' ^
have a re c o lle c tio n of those. S p e c ific a lly the events
th a t occurred I d o n 't have a d ire c t re c o lle c tio n o# but
the whole s itu a ti o n , y es.
Q Have ycu to ld me to d a y w hat your
r e c o lle c tio n is ab o u t th a t problem? Is th e re an y th in g
you'd lik e to add to it?
A W e ll, we d is c u s s e d th e S e lik o f f v e rs u s
S u sk in d s tu d i e s o r th e c o n n e c tio n o f th o s e , th e DMEH
s tu d y . I have no more r e c o lle c tio n o f th a t than I s a id
to you. X th in k i t ' s a review of the long term reco rd s
o f th a em ployees. I have no more r e c o l le c tio n o f t h a t .
As I lo o k a t th e names o f th e p la y e rs in v o lv e d ,' th e y
make p e r f e c t l y good se n se to me a s b e in g th e p eo p le i n
volved, d ep artm en tal environm ental o f f ic e s . George
Roush i s th a h ead o f DMEH, th e head o f th e d i v is io n
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
1 a c c o u n ta b le f o r th e p l a n t , C la y to n C a ll i s a s a DEO.
A ll o f those p eo p le make p e r f e c t l y good se n se to me
3 being involved in th is network of review ing the s itu a -
4 t io n th e r e . So th e problem was one o f s u f f i c i e n t
5 m a t e r i a l i t y to b r in g to my a t t e n t i o n , t h a t ' s t r u e , a l 6 though, p r in c ip a lly handled by th e G eneral Manager of
7 the d iv is io n involved because th a t was our s ty le u n le ss
8 i t g o t beyond a p o in t he c o u ld h a n d le i t . Seems to me 9 he d id e f f e c t iv e c o o r d in a tio n w ith the m ed ical e l e m e n t s .
f*
10 and e n v iro n m e n ta l elem en ts o f th e company. I would n say th a t was in e x e c u tin g our s t y l e o f management. 12 So I 'm s u r p r is e d by none o f i t an d i t r e c a l l s th e * 13 g e n e ra l c irc u m sta n c e s to me, b u t beyond t h a t to s a y , 14 you know, y ea h , I remember a m e e tin g w ith th o se th r e e 15 g u y s, I r e a l l y d o n 't . 16 Q L et me hand you w h a t's been marked 17 336 (Monsanto 8322919), and i t a p p e a rs to be a memoran18 dum on M onsanto l e t t e r h e a d d a te d June 1, 1979, a u th o re d 19 by George Roush, J r . , an d i t was a d d r e s s e d to you. 20
A O.K. 21 Q A ll r i g h t . Mr, H a rb is o n , i s th e r e 22 an y re a s o n to do u b t t h a t you r e c e iv e d t h i s l e t t e r o r 23
memorandum? 24
A None. 25
MR. CALWELL: I assum e i t ' s s t i p u l a t e d
- J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
(
{
y.
i
.1 2 3 4 5
6
7 8 9 10
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12
13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
'
d o lla rs as an out-of-pocket co st.
j-rV'A
Uh huh (y e s) .
Q I s th a t an amount o f money th a t would
have been brought to your a tte n tio n fo r the budget approval?
A Not n e c e s s a rily , b u t assuming I t
was n o t budgeted, then I t would h av e.
Q O.K. Do you r e c o l l e c t w h eth er In
f a c t t h i s stu d y wa s b u d g eted f o r o r n o t?
A I do n o t.
Q When d id you f i r s t le a r n a b o u t.x jS ^ ^ ? * ^ ^
' j v . ' S i * *'
-V * '-V
.
2 ,4 ,5 - T h e r b ic id e a t th e N itr o P la n t and some problem
*y *
w ith exposures th ere which a re re fe rre d to In paragraph
.
one of th e e x h ib it?
A W ell, I have no r e c o lle c tio n o f i t
p r io r to the tim e t h a t t h i s e n t i r e is s u e came u p , w hich
i s a p p a re n tly from lo o k in g a t th e docum ent, th e May, \
June, Ju ly time frame of 1979.
Q And s in c e l e a r n in g o f t h a t , has your
know ledgeifcout the exposure problem a t N itro r e la te d to
2,4 ,5 -T increased?
A My know ledge o f i t u n d o u b te d ly i n -
creased over th is period of tim e. Since I have been
disassociated w ith i t fo r q u ite a w h ile now, i t ^ fu z z ie r
in my mind th a n i t p ro b a b ly was c o m p le tin g th e s e s t u d i e s .
Q In your p resen t p o sitio n as an Executive
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
68
i
t 1 Vice P resid en t,y o u have no occasion to keep a b re a s t
.. V.l' v.'i'
l- t 2 o f t h i s th ro u g h th e company c h a n n e ls o r a n y th in g l i k e
3 t h a t , do you?
s4
A I do n o t through our I n te r n a l company
5 c h a n n e ls , no. Now, I 'm n o t e x c lu d in g w hat you r e a d in
6 the press and w h at's published, but I'm ta lk in g about
7 any flow of inform ation w ith in th e company I d o n 't.
8 I t ' s n o t an a r e a o f my r e s p o n s i b i l i t y .
9 Q Do you know whose a r e a o f re s p b $ a ! . `V - ...
10 b i l i t y i t i s ?
v 'A,. *t '"SvE.r :::
11 A You mean th e N I tr o l o c a t i o n I t s e l f ?
12 Q T his m a te r ia l problem t h a t we hftvt.
13 been ta lk in g a b o u t.
14 A I would assum e i t ' s b e in g h a n d le d
15 to d ay by Mr, 'ttiro d a h l p r im a r il y , D r, R oush,
16 Q And th o se a r e th e p e o p le y o u 'd go to
17 to f in d o u t a b o u t i t , r i g h t ?
18 A Today, y e s .
19 -'Q Now, th e s e docum ents h a v e , a number
20 o f them , have r e f e r r e d to th e S u sk in d s tu d y , a n d ,
21 a p p a re n tly ,y o u r memory i s s u f f i c i e n t l y r e f r e s h e d , w ould
22 i t be f a i r f o r you to s a y , you b e lie v e th e s e docum ents
23 w ere r e f e r r i n g to th e S u sk in d s tu d y on th e N itr o p e o p le ? 24 A Y es. 25 Q Did you e v e r f in d o u t i f th o se s tu d i e s
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
69
1 were completed?
i
2 A I have a re c o lle c tio n of the stu d ies
3 being com pleted, yes.
4 1 Q And r e p o r te d to M onsanto?
i -- -
5 A I'm sure they w ere, yes.
Q And, s p e c if ic a lly , the stu d ie s r e f e r re d
7
to in th ese documents th a t I hrve handed to you, is th a t
8
w h at we a r e ta lk in g ab o u t?
9 A Yes.
10
Q And do you r e c a l l how you found:
:y *'
- " V i- "
11
th e y w ere co m p leted , who t o l d you?
1
12
A No, I d o n 't, I r e a l l y d o n 't.
- .'' v fvr.
13 Q A gain, I guess you would have asked
14 Dr. Throdahl or Dr. Roush?
15 A Yeah.
1
Q And would i t be your r e c o l l e c t i o n
17 t h a t one of those gentlem en probably to ld you?
18 A I would th in k so .
19 *n Q Give you a l i t t l e b r ie f in g a s to w hat
20
the re s u lts o f th e s tu d ie s were probably?
21
A A b rie fin g or i t could have been a
22
memorandum o r b o th .
23 MR. CALWELL: Thank you, Mr. Harb i s on.
24
25
____________ E a r l H. Har b is on
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
- >**
SIATE OF ILLINOIS ) - ) SS
r * COUNTY Ofr?/H/lDISCN )
I , M. JOY SPRINGER, a N o tary P u b lic , d u ly commissioned and q u a lifie d in and fo r the County of M adison, S ta te of I l l i n o i s , do hereby c e r t i f y th a t p u rs u a n t to n o tic e came b e fo re me on th e 13th day o f J u ly , 1983, a t th e R ad isso n H o te l, Room 215, 9 th S tre e t and Convention Plaza EARL H. HARBISCN, J R ., who was t e s t i f y to th e t r u t h and n o th in g b u t th e t r u t h of.V h is knowledge touching and concerning the m atterk ^-v ^^-^^V ii in c o n tro v e rs y in t h i s c a s e ; t h a t he was th ereu p o n c a r e f u lly examined upon o a th , and h is exam ination red u ce d to w r i t i n g u n d er my s u p e r v is io n ; t h a t the d ep o sitio n is a tru e record of the testim ony given by th e .w itn e s s ; and s ig n a tu re o f th e w itn e ss was n o t w aived.
^ I FURTHER CERTIFY t h a t I am n e i t h e r a t t o r ney nor co u n sel fo r nor r e la te d to nor employed by and of th e p a rtie s to the a c tio n In which th is depo s i t i o n i s ta k e n ; an d f u r t h e r , t h a t I am n o t a r e l a t i v e or employee of any a tto rn e y or cou n sel employed by th a p a rtie s h ereto , or fin a n c ia lly in te re ste d in the a c tio n .
J A M E S MAY R E P O R T I N G S E R V I C E
7
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have h e re u n to s e t my hand an d a f f i x e d my n o t a r i a l s e a l on t h i s _____
day of July, 1983.
7
8 N otary Public w ith in and fo r the County o f Madison, S ta te of I l l i n o i s ,
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JA M E S M AY R E P O R T IN G SE R V IC E