Document pBOMdb9zz1nLLMBRja0KmXRgD

IN TUB MATTER OF: Transwestem Pipeline Company Monsanto Company, et at Cause No. BC 026959 Deposition ofW.B. Papageorge November 4, 1992 Gore Reporting Company, Inc. 100 North Broadway, Suite 1175 Saint Louis, Missouri 63102 (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019632 231 1 SUPERIOR COURT 2 FOR THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 3 FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES 4 5 6 7 TRANSWESTERN PIPELINE COMPANY, 8 9 Plaintiff, 10 1 1 VS. NO. BC 026959 12 1 3 MONSANTO COMPANY AND 1 4 DOES 1 THROUGH 200 INCLUSIVE, 15 1 6 Defendants. 17 1 8 Continued depositon of W.B. 1 9 PAPAGEORGE, taken on behalf of the 2 0 Plaintiff, at the offices of Bryan Cave, 2 1 One Metropolitan Square , in the City of St. 2 2 Louis, State of Missouri, on the 4th day 2 3 of Noveiber , 19 9 2 before Ronald A. Gore, 2 4 Registered Professional Reporter and Notary 2 5 Public. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019633 232 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 4 Mr . James P . Ta 11on 5 Ms . Dana K. Welch 6 Shearman & Ster1ing 7 725 South Figueroa Street 8 Los Angeles , California 9 0017 9 1 0 FOR THE DEFENDANTS: 1 1 Mr . Charles F. Preuss 1 2 Bronson, Bronson & McKinnon 1 3 505 Montgomery Street 1 4 San Francisco, California 94111 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019634 1 INDEX 2 PAGE 3 Examination by Mr . Ta 11on 235 4 5 6 EXHIBITS 7 Deposition Exhibit 10 9 5 237 8 Deposition Exhibit 10 9 6 238 9 Deposition Exhibit 10 9 7 244 1 0 Deposition Exhibit 10 9 8 245 1 1 Deposition Exhibit 109 9 252 1 2 Deposition Exhibit 110 0 257 1 3 Deposition Exhibit 110 1 260 14 Deposition Exhibit 1102 266 1 5 Deposition Exhibit 110 3 271 1 6 Deposition Exhibit 1104 272 1 7 Deposition Exhibit 110 5 274 1 8 Deposition Exhibit 110 6 277 1 9 Deposition Exhibit 110 7 296 2 0 Deposition Exhibit 110 8 3 00 2 1 Deposition Exhibit 110 9 306 2 2 Deposition Exhibit 1110 3 08 2 3 Deposition Exhibit 1111 326 2 4 Deposition Exhibit 1112 328 2 5 Deposition Exh'i bit 1113 329 233 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019635 1 Deposition Exhibit 1114 2 Deposition Exhibit 1115 3 Deposition Exhibit 1116 4 Deposit ion Exhibit 1117 5 Deposition Exhibit 1118 6 Deposition Exhibit 1119 7 Deposition Exhibit 112 0 8 Deposition Exhibit 112 1 9 Deposition Exhibit 112 2 1 0 Deposition Exhibit 112 3 1 1 Deposition Exhibit 112 4 1 2 Deposition Exhibit 112 5 1 3 Deposition Exhibit 112 6 1 4 Deposition Exhibit 112 7 1 5 Deposition Exhibit 112 8 1 6 Deposition Exhibit 112 9 1 7 Deposition Exhibit 113 0 1 8 Depos ition Exhibit 113 1 1 9 Deposition Exhibit 113 2 20 21 22 23 24 25 344 3 48 3 50 353 3 57 361 3 64 3 68 372 378 391 396 399 401 409 4 11 428 429 431 234 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019636 235 1 W.B . PAPAGEORGE, 2 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn 3 to testify the truth , the whole truth , and 4 nothing but the truth in the case 5 aforesaid, deposes and says in reply to 6 oral interrogatories propounded as follows, 7 t o - w i t: 8 EXAMINATION 9 QUESTIONS BY MR . TALLON: 1 0 Q : Why don't we continue . Good 1 1 morning, Mr. Papageorge. 1 2 As Good morning. 1 3 Q : I just wanted to touch back on two 1 4 or three things that we had discussed 1 5 yesterday. At one point during the day I 1 6 asked you if by late 1968 you thought that 17 a competent scientist should be able to 18 distinguish between PCBs and DDT found in 1 9 the environment , and you indicated on the 2 0 record that you thought that that was not a 2 1 true statement, that that was perhaps too 2 2 early to make that dist inct ion . Have I 2 3 remembered it accurately, so far as you 2 4 recall? 2 5 A: I'm trying to recall what we said Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019637 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 3 6__________________________________________________________________________________ '__________________________________________________________________________________________________ before that , too. You used the word competent scientist. Q : Yes. A: I assume that means not only in his training and experience generally, but with PCBs specifically, and with the appropriate equipment. Q : Right. A : And methodology. Q : Okay. At Okay. Q: I had just wanted to review with you a moment a brief passage from a deposition you gave earlier in the Bethleham Mink case, which was given s oiet ime ago, in 19 7 4 . And I'll hand this transcript to you and to your couns e 1 . And , certainly, read so much of it a s you feel is necessary to give yourself some context, but the passage that I am interested in appears starting at the top of page 5 4 through about the middle . And I wonder if you could just take a moment and read that. A : Okay. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019638 237 1 Q: Did you get a chance to look that 2 o ver ? 3 A : Yes . 4 Q : Okay. Let me, ther ef or e , ask you 5 whether you think today that by late 1968 a 6 competent scientist couId distinguish 7 between DDT and PCBs found in the 8 environment? 9 A: Yes. 10 Q : Thank you . 1 1 A: And in those days there might have 1 2 been a half a dozen in the world. 1 3 Q : Let's also mark as the next 1 4 exhibit, which I believe is 1095 , a one 1 5 page memo from Mr. Papageorge to Elmer 1 6 Wheeler dated February 12, 1970. 1 7 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 8 10 9 5 mark'd for identification) . 1 9 A : I've read the document. 2 0 Q: I s that a memorandum that you sent 2 1 to Mr. Wheeler? 2 2 A : 11 is. 2 3 Q: And that was the memorandum that 2 4 you sent in February 1970? 2 5 A: Yes. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019639 238 1 Q: Did you think then that 10 parts 2 per billion was rapidly becoming accepted 3 a s a well established and permanent target 4 for maximum PCB concentration? 5 A: At that time, yes. 6 Q: Let me also have marked a s the 7 next exhibit, 1096, a multi-page document 8 bearing production numbers STR 001559 9 through STR 0 0 15 8 3 , a Ithough I will note 1 0 for the record that on the last page of the 1 1 document the Bates number is partially 1 2 obscured. 1 3 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 4 1 0 9 6 mark'd for identification) . 1 5 A: I have reviewed the document. 1 6 Q: I s this one of the documents that 1 7 you r eviewed after you assumed your new 18 position a s of J anuar y 1 , 19 7 0? 1 9 A : 11 is. 2 0 Q : And was this, so far as you 2 1 understood it, a presentation to the 2 2 corporate deve1opment committee for their 2 3 meeting of November 17, 1969? 2 4 A: This reflects a major part of that 2 5 on . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019640 239 1 0: Do you know if this is a 2 presentation made by one particular 3 individual at that meeting? 4 A: I understand that it was made by 5 one person. 6 Q: Who was that? 7 A : Mr. Bergen. 8 Q: There is -- that, by the way, was 9 the meeting at which the position which you 1 0 ultimately a s sumed was created, is that 1 1 r ight? 1 2 A : 11 was recommended and approved, 1 3 yes, sir. 14 0? Okay . Thanks . The fourth page of 1 5 the exhibit , "Monsanto world-wide Aroc1or 1 6 business" , if you could just glance at that 1 7 for a moment . Was it your understanding a s 18 of the time you took on your new position 1 9 that Monsanto had world-wide sales per year 2 0 of approximately 2 2 million from the 2 1 Aroc1 or business? 2 2 A : Yes, sir. 2 2 million dollars. 2 3 0? 2 2 million dollars. And that that 2 4 resulted from sales of 104 million pounds 2 5 per year? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019641 240 1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And that the gross profit from 3 world-wide Aroc1 or sales was approximately 4 10 million dollars? 5 A: Yes. 6 0i The majority of which, about 7 5 7 percent of which was from sales of 8 functiona1 fluids? 9 A: Yes. 1 0 Q: Can you page over, if you will -- 1 1 the number s at the top of the pages are a 12 little difficult to read, but I believe 1 3 it's 13 . I f it's of any help to you, the 1 4 Bates number or numerica1 production number 15 at the bottom of the page that I'm 1 6 interested in is STR 001570. 17 A: I have it. 18 Q : Have you seen this particular page 19 within this presentation before today? 2 0 A: I have. 2 1 Q: And does the chart here conf orm to 2 2 your understanding in terms of sources of 2 3 fluids pollution? 2 4 A: Yes, it does. And by fluids, it's 2 5 meant the - - it's Monsanto ' s definition of Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019642 241 1 the type of application as distinguished 2 from plasticizer. PCBs are fluids in 3 either case, but this refers specifically 4 to the applications. 5 Q: Okay. So, for example, to just 6 pick up on that answer for a moment, the 7 first application identified on that chart 8 is industrial fluids, correct? 9 A : Correct . 1 0 Q: And the indication in the chart is 1 1 that the intensity of pollution was the 1 2 greatest for industrial fluids? 1 3 As Yes. Greatest in comparison to 14 the others that follow. 1 5 Q: So that -- 1 6 A : It's a relative description. 17 Q: The least intense source of 18 pollution in relative terms was the 1 9 Monsanto producing plants? 2 0 A : That was our evaluation, yes. 2 1 Q: Take a look, if you will, at this 2 2 page . And, again , the numbers are a little 2 3 hard to read. 11 appears that the number 2 4 at the top of the page is 15, but certainly 2 5 the number at the bottom of the page is STR Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019643 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 4 2________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 0 0 15 7 3 . And the capt ion on that page is "Fluids business threatened, 1970 budget". Do you see that? A : I do. Q : The initial concern, a s I understand it, at Monsanto was that the problem of PCB contamination of the envir onment was confined to Aroclors 12 5 4 and 1260, is that right? A: Yes. Q: But there was concern as of November 19 6 9 that other Aroclors, including 12 4 2 and 12 4 8 , would also be imp 1icated as part of the problem, correct? A : Correct. Q: Did you attend a meeting convened by or called by the Water Pollution Control Administration in Duluth, Minnesota in March of 1970? A : I did. Q: And were you requested to attend? A : Yes. Q : By whom? A: By the director of that laboratory, Dr. Mount. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019644 243 1 Q: As you understood it, what was the 2 purpose for which that meeting was 3 convened? 4 A: Dr. Mount had initially expected 5 to invite knowledgeable peop1e from 6 Monsanto to visit Duluth Laboratory and 7 have an office type conference with himself 8 and a few of his lieutenants, I'm going to 9 call them, the people who were in charge of 1 0 some of the activities at the laboratory, 1 1 to become more familiar with PCBs in terms 1 2 of the material itself, the product names , 1 3 the applications and the general 14 distribution throughout the industrial 1 5 world . That was his initial obj ective. 1 6 Q: And did that obj ective change 17 before the meeting was, in fact, held, so 1 8 far as you understand it? 1 9 As It changed primarily in the size 2 0 and type of the audience that eventua 1 ly 2 1 was drawn. 2 2 Q: I n terms of the size of the 2 3 audience that was drawn to the meeting 2 4 grew? 2 5 A : 11 did. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019645 244 1 @i How did the type of attendee 2 change? 3 A: 11 included many individuals 4 outside of that particular laboratory . As 5 I recall , most of those who attended were 6 -- had scientific background, they were 7 involved with the science of analyses , 8 effects and so on. From federal agencies 9 a s well a s state. 1 0 Q : When you attended the meeting, you 1 1 were accompanied by Jack Garrett and Dr. 1 2 Keller? 1 3 A: Yes. 1 4 Q : Let me show you a document that' s 15 a one page memo from Dr. Keller to R. A. 1 6 Lidgett. L-i-d-g-e-t-t , is that Lidgett? 1 7 A: Yes. 18 Q : At Ruabon . That ' s a document 1 9 bearing product ion number Tran 0 6 112 4 , 2 0 which we'll have marked as the next 2 1 exhibit. 2 2 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 3 10 9 7 mark'd for identification) . 2 4 A : I have read the exhibit . , 2 5 Q: Did you get a copy of this memo Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019646 245 1 from Dr. Keller in March of '70? 2 A: I did. 3 Q: Were you aware that Dr . Keller had 4 written that a massive nationwide PCB 5 program is unfolding in public agencies in 6 the U.S.A.? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Did you concur with his assessment 9 that one possible future result of this 1 0 effort would be the setting of limits for 1 1 PCBs in the environment? 1 2 A: Yes. 1 3 Q: Let me show you another document 1 4 re 1 at ing to the same meeting , Mr. 1 5 Papageorge. It's a multi-page document 1 6 that has a production series 0001441 17 through 14 4 6 . We'll have that marked a s 18 the next exhibit. 1 9 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 0 10 9 8 mark'd for identification) . 2 1 A: I have reviewed the document. 2 2 Q: Actually, there are two documents 2 3 here, right , Mr. Papageorge? One is a 2 4 brief over a 11 summary and one is a more of 2 5 a narrative description of the meeting? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019647 246 1 A: Yes. I should have said I 2 reviewed the exhibit . 3 Q: Now, you received copies of both 4 from Mr . Whee ler in March of 19 7 0? 5 A: I did. 6 Q: Did you give him any written 7 changes to either of these two documents? 8 A: I did not. 9 Q: Do you recall the conversations 1 0 and discussions that occurred at the 1 1 meeting in Duluth? 1 2 A : To some degree, yes. 1 3 Q: Was it a subject of discussion a t 1 4 the meeting in Duluth that the participants 1 5 -- well, was it a subject of discussion 1 6 a t the meet ing that a federal or state 1 7 agency could establish or set tolerance 1 8 leve1s for PCBs in food? 1 9 A: There was discussion on the need 2 0 for setting tolerances and the probabi1ity 2 1 that such tolerances would eventually be 2 2 established a s soon a s enough inf ormation 2 3 was avai lable to lead them to s ome leve 1 2 4 that was based on good data. 2 5 Q : Was there discussion at the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019648 247 1 meeting that such tolerance levels could be 2 estab1ished within six to twelve months 3 after the meeting in Duluth? 4 A: That was the hoped for period that 5 was expressed, yes. 6 Q: Hoped for by whom? 7 A : By Dr. Mount, a s the spokesman . I 8 personally felt that there were several in 9 the audience that supported that 1 0 speculation, really, on Dr. Mount's part. 1 1 Q: Was there discussion in the course 1 2 of the meeting that Aroc 1 or 12 4 2 was an 1 3 environmental contaminant? 1 4 A: Yes, there was. 1 5 (Discussion off the record). 1 6 MR. T ALLOM: Was it a sub j ect of 1 7 discussion at the Duluth meeting whether 1 8 Aroc1 or 12 5 4 being seen in environmental 1 9 samples couId actually be decomposed or 2 0 broken down to Aroc 1 or 12 4 2 ? 2 1 A: Let me see if I understand . 2 2 You're saying 1254 break down to 12 4 2 ? 2 3 Q: Let me put the question again . 2 4 Was it a sub j ect of discussion at the 2 5 Duluth meeting that what was being reported Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019649 248 1 as Aroclor 1254 found in the environment 2 was actually the decomposition products of 3 Aroclor 1242? 4 A: That potential was discussed. 5 Q: That was also an issue under 6 discussion at Monsanto during the same time 7 period? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: At the time of the Duluth meeting, 1 0 were there individuals working for Monsanto 1 1 who believed that the lower chlorinated 12 PCBs were not being detected because they 1 3 might have been degrading? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q : Was Monsanto asked at the Du luth 1 6 meeting for production figures? 17 A : I don't remember specifically a t 18 this meeting . That request was made so 19 often that it could well have been made. I 2 0 just don't remember any prolonged 2 1 discussion on that subject. 2 2 Q: At about the time of the meeting 2 3 in Duluth, was there any internal 2 4 discussion in Monsanto that you recall with 2 5 respect to the possibility of regulation of Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019650 249 1 PCBs through 2 A i Certa inly. 3 Q: Dur ing 19 7 0 did your Monsanto 4 colleagues in the U.K. meet with 5 of British or U.K. official 6 bodies concerning PCBs? 7 As Yes. 8 Q: And was one of thos e bodies the 9 Ministry of Agriculture , Fisheries and 1 0 Food? 1 1 A: Yes. 1 2 Q : Do you know, Mr. Papageorge, 1 3 whether in 1969 Aroclor 1242 accounted for 14 7 8 percent of total world-wide sales of 1 5 Aroclors? 1 6 A: I don't recal1 the exact number, 17 but I do know that it represented a 18 considerable portion of the total. 1 9 Q : Do you know if in 19 6 9 Aroclor 2 0 1 2 4 2 accounted for 7 8 percent of the total 2 1 U.K. Aroclor sales? 2 2 A: Again, I don't remember the 2 3 specific numbers , but it was -- of all the 2 4 Aroclors , it was the most popular . 2 5 Q : Most popu1ar , does that mean it Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019651 250 1 had the highest sales? 2 A: That's what I meant by that, yes. 3 Q: Okay. Were you aware that 4 representatives of Monsanto were meeting 5 with U.K. government officials in 1970? 6 A : Certainly. 7 Q : Did the Monsanto representatives 8 in the U.K. have any reporting 9 responsibility to you? 1 0 A: Yes. 1 1 Q: Was it theirresponsibility to 1 2 keep you apprised with respect to the 1 3 meetings they were having with U.K. 14 government officials? 1 5 A: Yes. 1 6 0s Did they also keep others in St. 1 7 Louis apprised? 1 8 A : Certainly. 1 9 Q : Including Mr . Bergen? 2 0 A : Yes. 2 1 Q : And do you recollect the names 2 2 Cameron and Vodden? 2 3 A: Yes. 2 4 Q: Were those gentlemen 2 5 representatives of Monsanto in the U.K. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019652 251 1 A: Yes. 2 Qs And do you today remember what 3 their respective titles were? 4 MR. PREUSSS In 1970? 5 MR. TALLON: Yes. 6 A : Mr. Cameron was the marketing 7 representative for products containing 8 PCBs. Mr . Vodden was the chemist working 9 in the Ru a b o n laboratories , a s I recall , 1 0 who was invo 1 ved with the technical 1 1 activities relating to PCB and its 1 2 products. 1 3 Q : Are you familiar with an entity 1 4 called Wiggins Teape ? 1 5 A: Yes. 1 6 Q: It's a company in the United 1 7 K ingdom . I don't know all of the ir 1 8 activities , but I do know that they were 1 9 the European company that manufactured 2 0 carbonless copy paper based on NCR 2 1 technology. 2 2 Qs Did they manufacture the 2 3 carbonless copy paper for NCR? 2 4 A: I don't know the business 2 5 relationship between NCR and Wiggins Teape Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019653 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 5 2________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ in terms of technology and the commercial aspects. Q: Do you know if Wiggins Teape was a licensee of NCR for purpos es of producing the carbonless copy paper? A : That I don't know . Q: Did Wiggins Teape purchase materials from Monsanto in order to produce the carbonless copy paper? A i Yes. Q : Did they purcha se Aroclor 12 4 2 ? A: Yes. Q: Monsanto did not have an ownership interest in Wiggins Teape , so far a s you know? A : That is correct . Q: Let me show you a document, Mr. Papageorge, that's a report dated -- well, it's actua1ly a s of January 2 7 , 19 7 0 , it may be dated February 5, 1970. We'll have that marked as the next exhibit . (Deposition Exhibit Number 10 9 9 mark'd for identification) . A: I have reviewed the exhibit . Q: Can you identify that exhibit , Mr. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019654 253 1 Papageorge? 2 A: It's a copy of a report of a 3 meeting between Monsanto s 4 and of the Ministry of 5 Fisheries and Food in London 6 on the subject of PCBs in various samples . 7 Q : Did you receive a copy of this 8 memorandum in February of 1970? 9 A i I did. 1 0 Q: Is the handwriting on the first 1 1 page of this memo identif iable a s Howard 1 2 Bergen's handwriting? 1 3 A: Yes, it is. 1 4 Q: Did you have discussions with 1 5 either Mr. earneron or Mr. Vodden before the 1 6 date of the ir January 2 7th meeting with the 1 7 Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and 1 8 Food? 1 9 MR . PREUSS: About the subje c t 2 0 matter of themeeting? 2 1 MR. TALLON : Yes. 2 2 A: I certainly had discussions with 2 3 both gent lemen . I am trying to recall the 2 4 timing. I was aware of their plans to 2 5 attend such a meeting. I recall talking to Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019655 2 54 1 Mr . Cameron and bringing him up to date on 2 what I understood was the U.S. situation, 3 and encouraged him to offer cooperation , 4 especially in the analytical methodology 5 area, and I supported the free exchange of 6 information and s amp 1e s a s appropriate . 7 That type of d i scus s i on I recall . And the 8 more I think about it, I did do this b e f ore 9 the -- this meeting. 1 0 Q: Were you asked by either Mr. 1 1 Cameron or Mr . Vodden before the Ja nuary 1 2 2 7th meeting that they had with the 1 3 ministry whether they could disclose 1 4 product ion figures? 1 5 A: I don't recall that subject coming 1 6 up . 1 7 Q : Were you asked by either Mr . 1 8 Vodden or Mr . Cameron whether , if asked , 1 9 they could disclose the names of Monsanto 2 0 customers in the U.K.? 2 1 As I don't believe so. 2 2 Q : To your knowledge , was -- did Mr. 2 3 Cameron or Mr. Vodden ask anyone at 2 4 Mons a nto in St. Louis whether, if asked, 2 5 they could disclose the names of Monsanto Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019656 2 55 1 customers 1n the U.K.? 2 A: I don't know. 3 Q: Did you have an understanding in 4 February of 1970 whether the World Health 5 Organization could put residue limits on 6 PCB? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And what was your understanding? 9 A : That that group cou 1d establish 1 0 those kinds of limits , and I -- well, 1 1 that's it, they cou Id do that. 1 2 Q: Was it your understanding that NCR 1 3 used a significant percentage of all of the 14 Aroc 1 or 12 4 2 sold by Monsanto in the U.K.? 1 5 A: Did they use all of the 1 2 4 2 ? 1 6 Q : A significant percentage of all of 1 7 the Aroc 1 or 12 4 2 sold by Monsanto in the 18 U . K . ? 1 9 A: Oh . I don't know that I ever knew 2 0 the exact amount. So, I can't respond even 2 1 with the word significant. I do know that 2 2 it was an important part of the bus iness . 2 3 Q: There is a note on page 3 of this 2 4 exhibit , Mr. Papageorge , in the fourth 2 5 paragraph from the top that states that in Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019657 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 5 6____________________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 19 6 9 , NCR's offtake of 4 . 4 million pounds Aroc1 or 12 4 2 accounted for 4 6 percent of total U . K . Ar oc lor sales: BI CC came next with 1 . 4 million pounds . Do you know whether that is accurate or not. A: I have no reason to doubt its accuracy. And you'11 note it refers to total Aroclor sales as distinguished from just 1 imit ing it to the 12 4 2 business . Q: So, it's your understanding that the total U.K. Aroc1 or sales referred to in that s entence is all of the var i ou s Aroclors, 1254 and so forth? A: Yes. Q: Do you remember , by the way, that there were reports of PCBs being found in herring? A : Oh, yes. Q : Do you recall approximately when you heard about that? A: Pretty early inJanuary, when I was being tutored by Mr . Wheeler. Q: Let me show you another document which bears production number s Tran 005558 through 5 5 6 0. And we'll mark that a s the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019658 257 1 next exhibit. 2 (Deposition Exhibit Number 3 110 0 mark'd for identification) . 4 A : I have reviewed the exhibit. 5 Q: Is that exhibit a report by Mr. 6 Vodden of European -- status report of 7 European studies being conducted in the 8 U.K. in March of 1970? 9 As It is. 1 0 Q : There is a list of recipients on 1 1 the top of the first page , and you are 1 2 indicated a s a c c , or carbon copyee, 1 3 correct? 14 As That is correct. 1 5 Q: Does the fact that there is a line 1 6 under your name indicate to you that this 1 7 is a copy of the copy that you got? 18 A: Yes. 1 9 Q : And is that your handwr i t i ng at 2 0 the top right-hand corner, indicating 2 1 "Bergen"? 2 2 A : Not my handwriting . 2 3 Q: Do you know whose that is? 2 4 A : I can only guess . 2 5 Q : Don't guess. I s that Mr. Bergen's Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019659 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 5 8________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ handwriting on the second page of the do cum e nt ? A: Yes. Q : There is a - - actually, on the first page there is a reference to -- biodegradation is the first topic, do you see that? As I do. 0s I s it accurate to say that by March 1970 there were biodegradation studies and analyses under way in the U.K.? A s Yes. Q s At the Ru a b o n facility? A s Yes. Q s Do you know by March 19 7 0 how long such studies had been in progr es s ? A s As best I recall , they were in progres s six to eight months, starting in '69. Q s The second sentence of the first paragraph refers to a trichlorobiphenyl isomer and a tetrachlorobiphenyl isomer. Do you see that reference? A s Which paragraph, again? Qs The first paragraph, second Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019660 259 1 sentence, "Isomers which appear to resist" , 2 and so forth. 3 A: And your question , again, referred 4 to the trichloro and tetrachloro? 5 0: The initial question was, 6 basically, whether you saw the sentence or 7 not. The numbers which appear respectively 8 before trichlorobiphenyl and 9 tetrachlorobiphenyl, are thos e designations 1 0 for specific isomers? 1 1 A: Yes. 1 2 Q : So that the designation 2 , 4 -- 2 1 3 prime 4 prime tetrachlorobiphenyl 1 4 repre sents a particular isomer among the 15 1 6 A : Correct. 1 7 0? And the number sequence indicates 1 8 the positioning of the chlorine atoms on 1 9 the bipheny 1 rings? 2 0 A: Yes. 2 1 Qi Was it your understanding that the 2 2 particular tetrachlorobiphenyl isomer 2 3 described in the first paragraph was 2 4 resistant to degradation in the studies 2 5 be ing conducted in Ru a b o n in March of 19 7 0? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019661 260 1 A : That ' s what this report informs 2 the reader of. 3 Q : I s that also your understanding? 4 As Yes, sir. 5 Q : Did you keep up with Messrs . 6 Cameron and Vodden with respect to their 7 plans to meet again with the Ministry of 8 Agricu1ture , Fisheries and Food in March of 9 19 7 0? 1 0 A : I did. 1 1 Q : And did you r ece ive a report from 1 2 them as to the outcome of a March 10 , 1970 1 3 meeting with the Ministry of Agriculture, 1 4 Fisheries and Food? 1 5 A: I received so many reports , that 1 6 one does not really stand out. But I would 17 be surprised if I had not received it. 18 Qi Let me show you a document that 1 9 purports to be a report of a meeting on 2 0 Mar ch 10 , 19 7 0 , and bears product ion 2 1 numbers Tran 005552 through 5557. 2 2 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 3 110 1 mark'd for identification) . 2 4 A : I have reviewed the exhibit . 2 5 Qs Does that appear to you to be a Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019662 261 1 report of a meeting between Monsanto 2 representatives and the Ministry of 3 Fisheries and Food on March 4 10 , 197 0? 5 A : 11 does. 6 Q: Did you get a copy of that report? 7 As I did. 8 Q: Did you speak with Mr . Cameron or 9 Mr . Vodden before the date of that March 1 0 10, 19 7 0 meeting about the subj ects to be 1 1 discussed at the meeting? 1 2 A : I just don't remember. 1 3 Q: Do you have a recollection of 1 4 having given Mr. Cameron, Mr. Vodden or Mr . 1 5 Lidgett any instructions not to disclose 1 6 the names of Monsanto customers for. PCBs? 1 7 A: I did not. 1 8 Q: Do you know whether anyone else in 1 9 St. Louis gave any of those three gentlemen 2 0 instructions not to disclose the names of 2 1 Monsanto customers? 2 2 A: I do not know. 2 3 Q : Do you know whether Messrs . 2 4 earneron, Vodden and Lidgett felt 2 5 constrained not to disclose the identity of Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019663 262 1 NCR a s a customer for A r o c 1 o r 12 4 2 a t their 2 meetings? 3 MR. PREUSSi I object, calls for 4 speculation. 5 MR. TALLON: I asked him if he 6 knew . 7 A : I don't know. 8 Q: Turn to page 5 for a moment, would 9 you, please , Mr. Papageorge? There is a 1 0 reference in the paragraph which is 1 1 numbered 8 indicating that "Because of the 1 2 instructions received from St. Louis and 1 3 despite the fact that both Wiggins Teape 1 4 and NCR U.K. believe that disclosing their 1 5 application for 1242 would be a positive 1 6 and constructive step, we did not identify 17 this application , nor did we even mention 1 8 the paper industry a s a user" . Do you see 1 9 that? 2 0 A: I do. 2 1 Q : Do you have any knowledge or 2 2 information of what instructions are 2 3 referred to in that sentence that I just 2 4 read into the record ? 2 5 A: I do not. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019664 263 1 Q : Did any of Mr . Cameron, Mr. 2 Lidgett or Mr. Vodden ever discuss with you 3 whether -- either before or after the date 4 of this March 1 0 , 19 7 0 meeting whether they 5 should disclose that NCR was a user of 6 Aroc1or 12 4 2 in the U.K.? 7 A: I don't remember such a 8 discussion. 9 Q: Do you r emember such a discussion 1 0 occurring with respect to Wiggins T e a p e ? 1 1 As I do not. 1 2 Q : Do you recall that Wiggins Teape 1 3 determined that it wouId disclose its use 1 4 of Aroc1or 12 4 2 to U.K. government 1 5 officials? 1 6 A: Do I recall that Wiggins Teape did 1 7 disclose , you say? 1 8 Q : Decided to disclose. 1 9 A: To disclose. I do recall that 2 0 eventually it was disclosed. The timing, I 2 1 do not recall just when all this happened. 2 2 Q: The initial reports and studies 2 3 indicated that what was being found in the 2 4 environment looked like Aroc1or 12 5 4 and 25 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019665 2 64 1 A : Correct. 2 Q: Was there a concern by the time 3 you took on your position that 12 4 2 was 4 also implicated in environmental 5 contamination? 6 A: Certainly, there was a growing 7 belief that the higher chlorinated parts of 8 1 2 4 2 might well be the type of material 9 being discovered in some samples . 1 0 Q : Was there a concern that Aroc 1 or 1 1 1 2 4 2 could, indeed, be a substantia 1 1 2 contributor to environmental contamination 1 3 because of the NCR application? 14 MR. P R E U S S: What time frame, 1 5 please? 1 6 MR . TALLONi As of the time Mr . 1 7 Papageorge took on his position, January 1 8 19 7 0 . 1 9 A: I wouId more correctly describe it 2 0 a s a contributor . Whether it was 2 1 substant ia 1 or not , there was no way for 2 2 any of us to know. 2 3 Q : Do you know, by the way, what 2 4 percentage or order of magnitude of 2 5 world-wide Ar o c1o r sales were compris ed of Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019666 265 1 sales of Ar oc1 or 1 2 4 2 ? 2 MR. PREDSS : In 19 7 0? 3 MR. TALLOM: Actually, '69. 4 A: I'd have to see the number s , I 5 just don't recall . 6 Q : I n what format were those numbers 7 ma i nta ined, what kind of report or other 8 document? 9 A: Well, there is the information 1 0 contained in the interagency task force 1 1 report put out by the government agencies, 1 2 where it lists the dif f erent Aroclors and 1 3 the amounts by year. 1 4 Q: And what is the date of 1 5 publication of that interagency report? 1 6 A : May of 19 7 2 . 1 7 Q : Are there interna 1 Monsanto 1 8 documents that would indicate world-wide 1 9 sales of Aroc1 or 1 2 4 2 for 19 6 9 and later 2 0 years or, indeed, earlier years ? 2 1 A: There were, yes. 2 2 Q: And can you identify any such 2 3 documents by name, such a s a n annua 1 report 2 4 for the functiona 1 fluids group or the 2 5 like? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019667 266 1 MR . PREUSS: Well, counse1 , we have 2 discussed Exhibit 1096, which is a 3 presentation in 1 9 6 9 which has a number of 4 figures. 5 MR . TALLON: Right. 6 A : That's an example. 7 Q : Sure. Anyth i ng else that you can 8 think of? 9 A: Of course, there are -- there 1 0 used to be i nt er na 1 reports in which the 1 1 sales numbers were reported and the 1 2 production numbers reported as a normal 1 3 record of business . 1 4 Q : Okay . Let's take a brief look at 1 5 another document, this one purporting to be 1 6 a report of a meeting held Apr i 1 17 , 19 7 0 . 1 7 This particular document bears production 1 8 numbers Tran 005547 to 5548. 1 9 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 0 110 2 mark'd for identification) . 2 1 A: I have read the exhibit. 2 2 Q : Have you seen that document 2 3 before, Mr. Papageorge? 2 4 A : I have. 2 5 Q : Does looking at the top of the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019668 2 67 1 second page of the document refresh any 2 recollection you may have regarding a 3 decision by Wiggins Teape to disclose their 4 usage of Aroc 1 or 12 4 2 to the Ministry of 5 Techno logy? 6 As 11 does refresh my memory 7 regarding the date of disclosure. 8 Qs And to what extent is your memory 9 now refreshed? That is to say -- 1 0 As That it was done in early April of 1 1 19 7 0. 1 2 0s Did you have any discussions with 1 3 representatives of Wiggins Teape with 14 respect to that disclosure? 1 5 A s Yes. 1 6 Qs And approximately when did you 1 7 have those discussions? 1 8 A s When in Europe, in April, May 1970 1 9 we had a meet ing with W iggins Teape 2 0 representatives. I don't recall the date 2 1 of that me eting . But a t that meeting the 2 2 Wiggins Teape representatives brought up 2 3 the sub j ect of disclosure . And not that it 2 4 was new to us then, I was already aware of 2 5 it, but they did bring it up again. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019669 268 1 Q: You were already aware of what? 2 A: Of the disclosure of the use of 3 PCBs in their paper product. 4 Q: You were aware that they had 5 disclosed their use of PCBs or that they 6 were going to disclose? 7 A : They had disclosed. 8 Q: By the time of yourmeeting? 9 A: Or they had given, really, 1 0 permission to, and Monsanto did the 1 1 disclosure. 1 2 Q : Did Wiggins Teape 1 3 furnish you any explanation or 1 4 to underlie their decision to 1 5 make a disclosure? 1 6 A: All I recall is the ir continued 17 belief that this would be a responsible 1 8 act ion, and believed it might be helpful to 1 9 all concerned . That's all I recall about 2 0 the reasons for doing so. 2 1 Q: I s it your understanding that 2 2 before the date of your meeting in the U.K. 2 3 with representatives of Wiggins Teape, do 2 4 you know whether representatives of 2 5 Monsanto communicated with representatives Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019670 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 6 9________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ of Wiggins Teape regarding whether or not they shouId disclose their use of Aroclor 12 4 2 ? A: I was informed so, yes. Q: And were you informed a s to the identities of the Monsanto representatives that met with representatives of Wiggins Teape? As I was, but all I recall is Mr . Cameron, a s a name. I don't recall who else was present. Q: How did you learn of that communication or series of communications? A: Well, as I ind icated , when we met with the Wiggins Teape people as part of the introductory comments made before the rest of the meeting took place, and in an attempt for both Wiggins Teape people and Monsanto Europe people to bring me up-to-date, they went through this review of what had transpired. And the subject of di vu lgance did come up , and they both indicated that both parties were involved, Monsanto and Wiggins Teape, in the discussion . But as I said, the only Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019671 270 1 Monsanto individual I recall was Mr . 2 earner on. I don't know who the others 3 were. I don't remember who the others 4 were . 5 Q: I n advance of your meeting in the 6 U . K . did you receive any telephonic 7 communications from Mr. earner on or other s 8 concerning communications with Wiggins 9 Teape on the subj ect of disclosure? 1 0 A: I don't recall such a telephone 1 1 call. 1 2 Q : Do you know if others in St. Louis 1 3 received telephonic communications from Mr. 1 4 earneron or others? 1 5 As I don't know. 1 6 Q : Do you know if Mr . earner on ever 1 7 took the position with Wiggins Teape that 18 disclosure should not be made? 1 9 A : I do not know. 2 0 Q: Do you know if Mr. Cameron ever 2 1 took the position with Wiggins Teape that 2 2 disclosure should be delayed? 2 3 A: I do not know. 2 4 Q : Are you familiar with a Mr . B a i 1 y 2 5 from the -- do you know of a Mr . Baily Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019672 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 7 1________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ from the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries in the U . K.? A: I don't remember the name. Q: Let me show you a document which is a document relating to a meet ing of September 2 9 , 19 7 0 , bearing production numbers Tran 040534 through 536. We'll have that marked a s the next exhibit. (Deposit ion Exhibit Number 110 3 mark'd for identification) . As I've read the exhibit. Q: I s that a copy of a meeting report relating to a meeting on September 2 9, 19 7 0 , authored by Mr. Lidgett of Monsanto ? MR. PREDSS: When you say Monsanto, are you talking about Monsanto Chemica 1 s Limited? MR. TALLOM S Yes. A : 11 is. Q : And did you receive a copy of this report at about -- in September or October of 1970? A : I did. Q: Do yourecall learning from this report that analytical work being done at Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019673 272 i Uni lever Research indicated that 2 degradation of lower chlorinated PCBs could 3 give rise to a chromatogram similar to a 4 higher PCB? 5 A: I do. 6 Q: Did that, in a sense, confirm some 7 of your own questions or suspicions? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Let me show you a document which 1 0 is a two page memo dated March 4 , 19 7 0 , 11 bearing production numbers Tran 005779 and 12 5780, which we'll ask the court reporter to 1 3 mark as the next exhibit. 14 (Deposition Exhibit Number 15 110 4 mark'd for identification) . 1 6 A: I have reviewed the exhibit. 1 7 Q: Can you identify the exhibit? 18 A: The exhibit is a memorandum, a 19 Mon s anto memorandum authored by E.S. 2 0 Tucker, the recipient is R. A. Lidgett in 2 1 Ru a bo n, Wales . And it covers the subject 2 2 of the shipment or transfer of s amp 1e s of 2 3 material from the U.S. to the United 2 4 Kingd om. 2 5 Q : Are you noted a s a recipient , Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019674 273 1 copyee of that memorandum? 2 A : I am. 3 Q: Do you recall receiving it? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Do you recall learning that Scott 6 Tucker held the view that due to 7 degradation of the lower chlorinated 8 isomers through a food chain most materia 1s 9 reported as 12 5 4 and 12 6 0 could be, in 1 0 fact, residue of lower chlorinated 1 1 Aroclors? 1 2 A : I do. 1 3 Q: Had you discussed that topic with 1 4 Mr. Tucker a t any time before March 4 , 1 5 1 9 7 0? 1 6 A : Certainly. 1 7 Q: Did you know Mr. Tucker before you 1 8 took on your job in St. Louis s tar t i ng as 1 9 of January 1 , 19 7 0? 2 0 A: I did not. 2 1 Q: Did you meet him after you took on 2 2 that position? 2 3 A: Yes. 2 4 Q: Was he one of the people you began 2 5 ta Iking to in January? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019675 274 1 A: Oh, yes. 2 Q: And that was because he was -- 3 well, why was that ? 4 A: He was the individual most closely 5 associated with the analytica1 methodology 6 and its deve1opment and the results that 7 were being generated in his laboratory 8 regarding the PCBs in many, many samples. 9 Q: Let me show you a document, Mr. 1 0 Papageorge, which is another memo from Mr. 1 1 Tucker, or so it purports to be, dated July 1 2 14 , 1 9 7 0 , a one page memo which has 1 3 production number Tran 038632, which we'll 1 4 have marked as the next exhibit . 1 5 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 6 110 5 mark'd for identification) . 1 7 A: I have reviewed thememo. 1 8 Q : I s that a memo to you from Mr . 1 9 Tucker dated July 14 , 19 7 0? 2 0 A : 11 is. 2 1 Q: Do you recall getting it? 2 2 A : I do. 2 3 Q: Do you recallhaving any 2 4 discussions with Mr . Tucker with respect to 2 5 the subj ect matter of this memorandum? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019676 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 7 5______________________________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________________________ A : Certainly. @i Do you have a recollection a s to where in the Mississippi River the two carp discussed had been taken? A: The best I knew, it was near the Monsanto plant in Saujet, Illinois. Q : The last comp 1ete paragraph of the typ ed portion of the memo states that "The E.C. Chromatogram of sample number 251 closely resembles that of Aroc1or 1 2 4 2 , while that of number 2 3 3 is very much altered with respect to the closest standard, Aroc1or 12 5 4 " . Do you see that ? A: I do. Q: Did Mr . Tucker ever explain to you what he meant by the term very much altered with respect to the closest standard as it was used in that sentence? A: We discussed that terminology frequently, but not necessarily with this specific samp1e. @i And in your discussions with Mr. Tucker with respect to that terminology, did you acquire a n understanding a s to the meaning or us age of that terminology? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019677 276 1 A: I did. 2 Q: What is your understanding? 3 A: The chemist looks at the graph 4 printed out by the instrument , the peaks 5 and valleys that are charted, and compares 6 that to a graph of the manufactured 7 material , the particular Aroclor. He 8 compares the peaks and tries to mat ch the 9 unknown sample versus the known. And in 1 0 those cases where he talked about altered , 1 1 it meant that all the peaks did not match, 1 2 some were different, or some were missing , 1 3 so he's then in the position where he has 1 4 to resort to c omp a ring it to the standard 1 5 material that most closely matches the 1 6 unknown. 17 Q : And the standard material was 1 8 developed by taking the product, for 1 9 example, known as Aroclor 1254 and running 2 0 a sample of that through the testing 2 1 equipment? 2 2 A: Yes. 2 3 Q : That is not Mr . Tucker ' s 2 4 handwriting on the bottom of this 2 5 memorandum, is it? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019678 277 1 A : 11 is not. 2 (Recess) . 3 MR. T AL LON: Let me show you a 4 document, Mr. Papageorge, which is dated 5 December 7 , 19 7 0 , and is titled "PCB 6 environmental problem, November status 7 report" . And it bears production numbers 8 Tran 003094 through 3104. We'll mark that 9 as the next exhibit and then give you an 1 0 opportunity to look it over . 1 1 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 2 110 6 mark'd for identification) . 1 3 A: I have scanned the exhibit. 1 4 0i I s that a document that you 1 5 authored, Mr. Papageorge? 1 6 A: I would suggest that I acted more 1 7 a s editor rather than author. 1 8 Q: And does that indicate that there 1 9 were different contributors for the 2 0 information appearing in the document? 2 1 . A: Yes. 2 2 Q: Did you have responsibility for 2 3 pulling the information together and 2 4 reporting it? 2 5 A i Yes. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019679 _________ _________ _________________________________________________________ 2 7 8 1 Q : And you reported it to all of the 2 gentlemen whose names are listed on the 3 first page of the memo? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q : Was the creation of an 6 environmental problem status report a 7 routine activity for you? 8 At Yes. 9 01 And do you recall havi ng edited 1 0 this December 7, 1970 report? 1 1 A: Yes. 1 2 Q : Do you recall having written any 1 3 portion of it? 1 4 A: I didn't see anything in here that 1 5 I would suggest was my contribution , no. 1 6 Q: When you used the term editing, 1 7 are you referring to the activity of 1 8 collecting reports from various sources and 1 9 then summar i z i ng them in this format? 2 0 A: That is certainly part of it. 2 1 It's primari ly what I'm going to call a 2 2 scissors and paste job. I would get 2 3 contributions from several individuals , and 2 4 then I would put it together in what I felt 2 5 was a readable form for the audience it was Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019680 279 1 intended for. 2 Q : Were you requested to create such 3 routine reports? 4 A: I would suggest -- it was more of 5 a suggest ion. I recall putting out a one 6 page summary at one point in time, and the 7 recipients reacted favorably to that 8 attempt, but wanted a little bit more. So 9 I expanded it, and instead of being an 1 0 author of a one page document I became the 1 1 - - in essence, the editor and distributor 1 2 of a multi-page. 1 3 Q: When, initially, you took on your 14 posit ion as of January 1 , 19 7 0 , was it 1 5 explained to you that the dur a t ion of that 1 6 pos it ion would be from six months to a 17 year, or shorter time? 1 8 A: Yes. 1 9 Q : Actual ly , what was the amount of 2 0 time described to you when you initially 2 1 took on the position? 2 2 A: Well, Mr. Bergen, in our 2 3 discussion, predicted that this assignment 2 4 could last six months , at most a year, by 2 5 that time he was hopeful that everyth ing Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019681 280 1 would be in order . 2 Q: Excuse me, did you say six months 3 to a year? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q : And did you at some point during 6 the course of 19 7 0 get the idea that it was 7 going to last a little bit longer than 8 that? 9 As Oh, certainly . 11 was quite soon 1 0 after I became a little more knowledgeable . 1 1 Q? The first caption of information 1 2 in this document is titled "Marketing" . Do 1 3 you see that? 14 A: Yes. 1 5 Qi Do you know the source for the 1 6 inf ormation which is re flected after that 1 7 caption? 18 A: 11 came from marketing 1 9 representatives. In this case, I just 2 0 don't recall the specific person. But it 2 1 came from the marketing representatives of 2 2 the U.S., Japan and the United -- Europe . 2 3 Qi When you included information that 2 4 you got from sources such a s market ing, did 2 5 you adopt the information that they were Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019682 281 1 giving you, did you accept it as accurate? 2 A: On a n occasion, and it didn't 3 happen often, I wouId read something that 4 was totally new to me, so I wou Id make it a 5 point to call and get a better 6 understanding of what was meant and what 7 had happened, so I tried to reassure myself 8 that what was being reported fit in with 9 the overa 11 purpose of the program. 1 0 Q: Was it your understanding that by 1 1 Dec ember 7, 19 7 0 NCR was making progress 1 2 toward the replacement of Aroc1or 1 2 4 2 in 1 3 their carbonless carbon paper? 14 A: Yes. 1 5 Q : And do you know when NCR began 1 6 their efforts to achieve that replacement? 1 7 A : Their ef f orts , really , were 1 8 ongo ing when I ar r i ved and as sumed this new 1 9 responsibility. I personally don't know 2 0 just what year they started this program. 2 1 Q: Did you have a contact at NCR that 2 2 you spoke with over the course of 197 0? 2 3 A: I did not have a regular contact, 2 4 no . 2 5 Qi There is a reference in the third Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019683 282 1 paragraph on page 1 to Mr. Katayama of MMK, 2 do you see that? The bottom of page 1 ? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q: What was MMK in December 19 7 0 ? 5 A: MMK is the acronym that I 6 associate with the Monsanto Mitsubishi 7 venture in Japan. 8 Q : What was Mr. Katayama's position, 9 as you recall it? 1 0 A: I don't know the exact title, but 1 1 I would -- I related it in my thinking a s 1 2 sort of a business director for PCB type 1 3 products in Japan. 1 4 Q: 0n page 3 there is a list of 15 points made with respect to Europe . Do you 1 6 see that? 1 7 A: I do. 18 Q : Do you know who contributed the 19 inf ormation that appears there? 2 0 A: As best I can recall , it was Mr . 2 1 Cameron. 2 2 Q: Was it your understanding that a 2 3 decision had been made to cease sales of 2 4 Aroclors or PCB products to 2 5 non-controllable applications in the U.K. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019684 283 1 by March 1, 1971? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q : And to your know 1 edge , who made 4 that decision, either individually or 5 coiledtive1y ? 6 A : I don't know. 7 Q : Do you know what is me ant by the 8 phrase non-controllable applications as it 9 is used in that sentence? 1 0 A 1 Yes. 1 1 Q : What? 1 2 A : These are the applications that 1 3 Monsanto referred to as the plasticizer 1 4 applications. The applications in paints 1 5 and varnishes and caulking and adhesives, 1 6 inks, that type of application. 1 7 Q: That would include the use of 1 8 Ar o c 1 or 1 2 4 2 in the manuf actur e of 1 9 carbonless carbon paper ? 2 0 A : Yes. 2 1 Q : Were there any fluids included 2 2 within the use of the term non-controllable 2 3 applications, a s you under stood it a t this 2 4 time? 2 5 A: At that time, no. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019685 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 8 4________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Q: Was it your understanding that sales for all applications in continental Europe would continue until the end of 197 1? A: Yes. Q: And do you have an understanding a s to the difference in timing betwe en sales in Europe and sales in the U.K.? A: The difference was driven primarily by the perception held by Monsanto representatives in Europe regarding the cooperat ion and acceptance by the governments throughout Europe, whether they would go a long with the replacement materiaIs and whether they wouId accept accelerated testing, and whatever was involved, to demonstrate that the r ep1 a cement product was suitable. Q: Was it a f actor in the decision to terminate sales in the U.K. by March or , relatively speaking, earlier than sales in continental Europe , that U.K. regulatory authorities were expected to regulate the use of PCBs earlier than continental Eur ope? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019686 285 1 MR. PREUS8 : Let me just object, 2 because I think 1 talks about 3 non-controllable applications and 2 talks 4 about all applications, which you didn't 5 distinguish. 6 MR. TALLOM: I know. 7 A: Well, there is a difference in the 8 types of applications reviewed or described 9 here. I know of no decision regarding the 1 0 sales of PCBs in the U. K. that was based on 1 1 any perception of the U.K. Government's 12 plans to regulate. 1 3 Qi Could I hear the answer? 1 4 (The requested portion of the 1 5 record read by the reporter) . 1 6 MR . TALLOM : So far a s you know , 1 7 were government regulators in Europe more 1 8 willing to work with PCB producer s in terms 1 9 of developing r ep1a cement products than 2 0 were regulators in the U.K.? 2 1 A: I n the U.K. I'm not aware of any 2 2 government regulatory activity regarding 2 3 PCBs a t this point in time. I n continental 2 4 Eur ope, and I have in mind one specific 2 5 example that i1lustrates this, the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019687 286 1 authorities in Germany that have to do with 2 safety in the mines were reluctant to 3 consider an alternative material for the 4 mining equipment . That's the kind of 5 obs tac le , let me call it, that Monsanto 6 faced in continental Europe regarding the 7 searching for and substituting of 8 alternative materials. 9 Q: What was the material used in 1 0 mining machinery in Eur ope -- in Germany? 1 1 A: 11 was one of the PCB mixtures . I 1 2 believe it was a 4 0 something percent, 4 8 , 1 3 4 2 percent, something like that. 14 Q : Was it a Pydrau1 product? 1 5 As No. No. No. This was a German 1 6 formulation. 1 7 0s Meaning not made by Monsanto? 1 8 A s That is correct. 19 Q s Made by one of Monsanto ' s 2 0 competit or s? 2 1 A s Yes. 2 2 Q s Do you know which one? 2 3 A s Beyer Company. 2 4 Q s Do you know what percentage of PCB 2 5 sales in the U.K. were attributable to Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019688 287 1 Monsanto? 2 As PCB sales in the U . K.? 3 Q: Yes. In 1970, for example. 4 A: Virtually all in the U.K. 5 Q: Take a look, if you would, please, 6 Mr. Papageorge, at the caption 7 "Environmental Studies-Ruabon" on page 6. 8 Did you learn in 1970 that the To lwor th 9 Laboratory of the Minis try of Agriculture, 1 0 Fisheries and Food had conducted analyses 1 1 which showed that residues of Aroclor 1242 1 2 tended to re semble Aroclors 12 54 and 12 60? 1 3 A: Yes. 1 4 08 Did you learn that representatives 1 5 of that laboratory believed that Aroclor 1 6 12 4 2 may be a major source of envir onmenta 1 1 7 pollution in the U . K . ? 1 8 A: Yes. 1 9 Q: Did you have any discussions with 2 0 Mons anto representatives in the U.K. 2 1 concerning the viewpoint of representatives 2 2 of the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries 2 3 and Food concerning the source of PCB s in 2 4 cardboard? 2 5 MR. PREUSS: At or about this Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019689 288 1 time? 2 HR. TALLON: Yes. 3 A i Yes. 4 Q: And did you have those discussions 5 with Mr. Cameron or Mr. Vodden or someone 6 else? 7 A : With both individuals , Mr. earner on 8 and Mr . Vodden, a t different times . 9 Q : In general , what do you recollect 1 0 with respect to those discussions? 1 1 A: I recall that the suspicion had 1 2 been raised that the presence of PCBs in 1 3 cardboard might be traceable back to the 14 fact that cardboard was made from recycled 1 5 paper products, and among s t other s ource s 1 6 the PCB could have come from the carbonless 17 copy paper. 1 8 Q: Carbonless copy paper that was 1 9 recycled for use in making cardboard boxes 2 0 or other recycled paper products ? 2 1 A: Yes. 2 2 Q : Do you know whether Factory Mutual 2 3 is an insurance company? 2 4 A: Well, I don't keep up-to-date on 2 5 insurance companies. I associate Factory Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019690 289 1 Mutual as providing service to industry 2 regarding acceptability of products on a 3 safety basis. And that's the extent of my 4 understanding. 5 Q: And where did you acquire that 6 understanding, genera 1 knowledge? 7 A : Just general knowledge. 8 Q: Do you know whether in 19 7 0 a 9 representative of F actory Mutua 1 reviewed 1 0 certain Pydraul products being reformulated 1 1 by Monsanto? 12 A: Yes. 1 3 Qi And do you know the results of the 1 4 Factory Mutua1 visit which you recall? 1 5 A: I don't recall specifics. I do 1 6 know that appr o va 1 was granted in s ome 1 7 alternative materials and not in others. 1 8 Q: Take a look at the caption 1 9 "Pydraul R e f o rmulation" which appe ar s on 2 0 page 7 . And particularly at the caption 2 1 "Factory Mutual visit" . Do you see that? 2 2 A: I've read that. 2 3 Qi Did you draft that particular 2 4 passage in this status report? 2 5 A: Did I draft it? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019691 290 1 Q: Yes. 2 A: No. 3 Q: You incorporated it? 4 A: I incorporated it, yes. 5 Q: And to the best of your 6 recollection, who was the draftsman or 7 draftsmen for this section? 8 A: I don't recall the specific 9 person. The closest I can come to it is 1 0 that this came out of the research 1 1 department. 12 Q: I n the functional fluids group? 1 3 A: Yes. 14 Q: And do you have the name of a 15 particular person or persons in mind in the 1 6 research department in that group? 1 7 A: There were -- 18 Q : There were many? 1 9 A: There were 3 0 or 5 0 all together . 2 0 Q: Did you have a n understanding that 2 1 by December of 1970 certain Pydrau1s had 2 2 been slated for reformulation? 2 3 A : Oh, yes. 2 4 Q: And do you know byDecember of 2 5 19 7 0 how long that pro j ect had been under Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019692 291 1 way ? 2 A: At least a year, but maybe a 3 little bit more than that. 4 Q : And did you acquire an 5 understanding when you took on your job a s 6 of January 1 , 19 7 0 why Pydrau 1 products had 7 been slated for reformulation? 8 As Yes, I did. 9 Q: What was your understanding? 1 0 A: The initial efforts to reformulate 1 1 were aimed at removing the Aroc 1 or 1 2 54 and 1 2 1260 types of PCBs from those formulations 1 3 that did contain them. That's based on the 1 4 initial perception that the contaminant PCB 1 5 resembled this type of material, therefore, 1 6 let's try to do without it. As evidence 17 came in regarding the possibility that some 1 8 of the five and six chlorine type PCBs that 1 9 were being detected in the environment 2 0 could have come from such Aroc1 ors a s 2 1 Aroc 1 or 12 4 2 , coupled with the fact that 2 2 there seemed to be some success in the 2 3 laboratory with the alternative materials 2 4 that were being newly developed, the 2 5 decis ion was made let's go with Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019693 292 1 alternatives with all the PCB mixtures , 2 irrespective of whether we thought that 3 they were the higher chlorinated or lower 4 chlorinated or mixtures thereof. I n other 5 words , let's attempt to get out of PCB use 6 all together. That was evolutionary, it 7 didn't just happen on any one day. S ince 8 the alternative material was a new 9 chemical, new to commerce, it took sometime 1 0 to, first of all, develop the process in 1 1 the laboratory, make enough sample to test 1 2 it, turn it over to the engineers to design 1 3 equ ipmen t and find the raw materials , the 1 4 starting materials out there from other 1 5 chemical producers . Anyway, through that 1 6 period of time a decision was made that we 1 7 can, fairly quickly, do away with PCBs in 1 8 all these products by going through an 1 9 interim step, which was going through a 2 0 chlorinated terpheny1, and that's what's 2 1 referred to in this document. 2 2 Q : The reformulations he's referred 2 3 to on page 7 are reformulations chlorinated 2 4 with terphenyIs? 2 5 A: Yes, sir. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019694 293 1 Q: You mentioned, for lack of a 2 better description, a two phase approach to 3 P y d r a u1 reformulation , the first phase 4 being the elimination of the more highly 5 chlorinated Aroclors and the second phase 6 being the elimination of other Aroclors. 7 When did the second phase start? 8 As I don't know that there is any one 9 specific day. 11 was an evolutionary kind 1 0 of program that -- well, the effort was 1 1 under way in about the middle or last 12 quarter of 1970. 1 3 Q: And had it begun to evolve before 14 then? 1 5 As The thinking started to evolve, 1 6 but I'm talking about the bench work right 17 in the laboratory . 1 8 Q: I'm sorry, I thought you were not 1 9 finished. There is a product referenced in 2 0 that paragraph under the caption "Factory 2 1 Mutual visit", which is MCS 1063, and that 2 2 is followed by the name in parentheses 2 3 Turbinol l 5 3 A , do you see that? 2 4 A: I see that. 2 5 Q: Do you know if MCS 10 6 3 was slated Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019695 294 1 to be a replacement for Turbinol 153? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you know whether that fluid was 4 submitted to a Factory Mutua 1 5 representative on November 4 and 5, 19 7 0 6 for testing? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: Do you know if that fluid passed 9 -- excuse me, was approved by the F actory 1 0 Mutua1 representative at that time? 1 1 A i Yes. 1 2 Q * It was? 1 3 ' A: Yes. Now, that had to do with 1 4 fire safety only, it had noth ing to do with 1 5 suitability for other reasons . 1 6 Q: Can you turn for a moment, please, 1 7 to page 8 , Mr. Papageorge. 1 8 A : I have it. 1 9 Q : There is a further reference to 2 0 the same product, Turbino 1 15 3A, and, 2 1 indeed, the report indicates that MCS 1063 2 2 demonstrated good lubricity, do you see 2 3 that? 2 4 A: I do. 2 5 Q : MCS 1 0 6 3 and Turbinol 15 3 A, are Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019696 _____________________________________________________________ 2 9 5 1 those terms being used interchangeably in 2 this passage? 3 A: They are. 4 Q: The same paragraph also refers to 5 moderate wear which was attributed to high 6 TAN Krummrich CDT , do you see that? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: What is the reference to TAN 9 Krummrich CDT? 1 0 A: I don't recall the TAN acronym. 1 1 The CDT refers to cresy1 dipheny1 1 2 phosphate. 1 3 Q: The same paragraph goes on to 1 4 state that this fluid also exhibited low 1 5 deposits in the Alcor Deposit ion test. Do 1 6 you see that? 1 7 A: Yes. 1 8 Q: I s it your understanding that that 1 9 is a favorable comment? 2 0 A: Yes. 2 1 Q: Do you know by December of 1970 2 2 how long MCS 1 06 3 had been under 2 3 deve1opment? 2 4 A: No, I don't. 2 5 Q: Do you know if there was a Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019697 _____________________________________________________________ 2 9 6 1 particular person or persons who were 2 responsible for development of that 3 reformulation? 4 A: I only know the name of the per s on 5 u1timately responsible, that would be Dr. 6 Richard . I do not know the team reporting 7 to him. 8 Q : Was it a factor in dec id i ng to 9 reformulate Pydr au 1 products that Pydrau1 1 0 products were used in applications where 1 1 spills and leaks could occur into the 1 2 environment? 1 3 A: That, in general, is correct. And 1 4 it had to do with the use in high pressure , 1 5 high temperature systems . 1 6 Q: Let's mark as the next document a 1 7 multi-page exhibit which is s equentia 1 ly 1 8 numbered from Tran 004898 through Tran 1 9 004911. 2 0 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 1 110 7 mark'd for identification) . 2 2 MR. TAL LON: Mr. Papageorge, please 2 3 take your time in reviewing this exhibit . 2 4 I'm particularly interested, if it will 2 5 save you time, in the page which has the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019698 297 1 Bates number Tran 004 9 09 . 2 As I've scanned the document . 3 Q: Okay. Thanks . Setting aside for 4 a moment the handwriting, do you recogniz e 5 the format of these pages that are titled 6 "Monsanto Company Organic Chemica1 7 Division Research Department index"? 8 As This is the first time I've seen 9 this document or similar documents . 1 0 Q s So, the three column format pages, 1 1 job number and subject is new to you as of 1 2 today? 1 3 A s Yes . 1 4 Q s Did you know a Paul Fowlkes as an 1 5 employee of the research department in the 1 6 organic chemicals division in 1970? 17 A s We used to call him Dwayne , I 1 8 think. 1 9 Q s His name is Paul Dwayne? 2 0 A s 11 could be. I knew a Mr. 2 1 FowIkes. 2 2 Q s Do you know if Mr. Fowlkes ever 2 3 worked on a reformulation of Turbinol 153? 2 4 A s I do not. 2 5 Q s Have you ever seen ind ices to lab Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019699 298 1 books at Monsanto? 2 A: No. 3 Q: Do you know if the appellation MCS 4 10 6 3 , if the 1063 refers to any particular 5 entry in a lab book or reference to a lab 6 book? 7 A: I am aware of a document from 8 which numbers like 10 63 are obtained, and a 9 description is included that relates to 1 0 that number , and it also includes the name 1 1 of the researcher assigned to that number , 1 2 and it's da ted. I recall seeing such a n 1 3 entry. 14 Q: What document or book are you 1 5 to in which such number s are 1 6 maintained? 17 A: It's a log of - - I forget the 18 official title. As I understood, it was a 1 9 log of new pr oduct studies , the designation 2 0 of new product studies . 2 1 Q : And was that maintained by a 2 2 department or group , so far a s 2 3 you know, in 1969 or 1970? 2 4 A: 11 was maintained by the office of 2 5 the director of the res earch laboratories . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019700 299 1 Q: And in 19 7 0, who was the d ir ector 2 of the research laboratories? 3 A : I don't recall . 4 Q: Do you know whether numbers were 5 sequentially assigned to new products being 6 deve1 oped in order or whether they were 7 random or related somehow to the 8 composition of the product? 9 A: No. They were sequentially 10 assigned . The next available number was 1 1 assigned to the study, nomatter what the 12 study was about. 1 3 Q: Was the appellation MCS applied to 1 4 new products in deve1opment , so, for 1 5 example, MCS 1063? 1 6 A: Yes. 17 Q: By the time you took on your 1 8 position in January of19 7 0, had any 19 attention been devoted to the issue of PCBs 2 0 in the environment by Congressman Ryan? 2 1 A: Yes. 2 2 Q: And did you --was that attention 2 3 one of the sub j ect s that you learned about 2 4 after you assurned your position in January 2 5 of 1970? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019701 3 00 1 A: Yes. 2 Qi Did you learn about that attention 3 from Elmer Wheeler or someone else? 4 As As best I recall , it was Elmer 5 Wheeler. 6 Qs And what understanding do you 7 recall acquiring with respect to 8 Congressman Ryan's activity? 9 A: At that time the understanding was 1 0 from Mr. Wheeler that there is a 1 1 Congressman out of New York that is making 1 2 some r em a rk s and including st atements in 1 3 the Federa 1 Register, I believe it was the 14 Federal Register, relating to PCBs and 15 their presence in the environment and the 16 harm they might be doing. 17 Qs Do you know if -- well, do you 18 recall acquiring an understanding that 1 9 Congressman Ryan was considering 2 0 legislation to ban PCBs or to regulate 2 1 them? 2 2 A s Yes. 2 3 Qs Let me show you a document which 2 4 bears a series of product ion number s 2 5 c omme ncing with Tran 0052 01 and going Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019702 301 1 through 005208. We'll have that marked as 2 the next Exhibit. 3 (Deposit ion Exhibit Number 4 110 8 mark'd for identification) . 5 A: I have read the exhibit. 6 Q i Can you identif y the document? 7 As This is a copy of the text that I 8 used in making a presentation to the 9 corporate development committee of Monsanto 1 0 Company in April of 19 7 0. 1 1 Q : Did the corporate deve1opment 1 2 committee change its name during the course 1 3 of 1970 or 1971? 1 4 A: Yes. I don't recall the exact 1 5 timing, but it had several titles . At 1 6 times it was called the corporate 1 7 management committee, other times it was 1 8 the corporate administrative committee, 1 9 other times it was the corporate 2 0 deve1opment commi11ee. I do not recall the 2 1 dates at which each of these names were 2 2 changed. 2 3 Q s Was the corporate deve1opment 2 4 committee also known a t s ome point a s the 2 5 corporate management commi11ee? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019703 302 1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And are those two terms synonymous 3 in your mind? 4 A: I n my mind they are. 5 Q: Did each of those two bodies have 6 the same constituents, that is to say, 7 members? 8 A: There was some change in 9 personnel, but the functions these 1 0 individuals represented were there -- were 1 1 repre sented by someone. 1 2 Q : So, for examp 1e , a senior 1 3 vice-president might actually change 1 4 posit ions , but that same function would 1 5 still be represented on the c omm i 11 e e ? 1 6 A: Yes. The senior vice-president of 1 7 marketing would be there. 1 8 Q: No matter who it was? 1 9 A: 11 might be Mr. X and it might be 2 0 Mr . Y . 2 1 Q: Did you draft the presentation 2 2 which is be fore you? 2 3 A: I did. 2 4 Q: Did you make any recommendations 2 5 to the committee as of the date of that Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019704 3 03 1 presentation? 2 As Yes, I did. 3 Q: And what recommendations do you 4 reco1lect having made? 5 A: This doesn't appear to be a full 6 document. I made recommendations regarding 7 the -- well, there were about a dozen, I 8 can't recall them all. Recommendations 9 regarding the termination of sales to the 10 open uses, the continuation of toxicity 1 1 testing pr ograms, t he continuation of the 1 2 analytical methodology deve1opment, the 13 communications to customers, the thorough 1 4 review of the termination of making and 1 5 selling the Aroc1or 12 54 and 12 6 0 , the 1 6 close cooperation with government, 1 7 university, industry laboratories . I think 1 8 I've covered most of them. As I remember , 1 9 it was a 12 point program, or something 2 0 like that. 2 1 Q: Do you recollect having learned, 2 2 about two weeks before your presentation to 2 3 the c ommi11 e e, that the FDA was considering 2 4 establishing a limit of two parts per 2 5 million PCB in food? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019705 3 04 1 A : I do. 2 Q: And you reported that to the 3 committee? 4 As Yes. Did you say two parts per 5 million or two-tenths? 6 Q : .2 parts per million, two-tenths . 7 A : That's correct. 8 Q: There is a reference on the next 9 page, it's actua1ly not readable, but I 1 0 think it's page 3 , and at the bottom page 1 1 5 2 0 3 , that states "From the U.S. point of 1 2 view we were re luct ant to divulge this 1 3 inf ormation because of adverse consequences 1 4 world-wide" . Do you see that? 1 5 A : I do. 1 6 Q: That is a ref erence back to a 1 7 request of the Ministry of Agriculture, 1 8 Fisheries and Food to disclose cust omer 1 9 names? 2 0 A: Yes. 2 1 Q: And do you now recall why you were 2 2 reluctant to divu1ge this inf ormation? 2 3 A: Yes. 2 4 Q : Why? 2 5 A: We were very concerned about our Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019706 ______ _______________________________________________________3 0 5 1 customers -- customer relations, many of 2 whom we knew did not want their names 3 divulged to any regulatory agencies for any 4 purpose . And the thought there was that if 5 we do this in the U.K., the rest of the 6 world would expect the same type of action . 7 Q: Do you recall whether it was the 8 point of view of Monsanto representatives 9 in the U.K. that disclosing customer names 1 0 in confidence would be a wiser approach? 1 1 A : Yes. That reflects the United 1 2 Kingdom approach to matters of this type. 1 3 Q: Do you recall, by the way, meeting 14 with General Electric representatives in 1 5 January of 19 7 0? 1 6 A: Yes. Shortly after I arrived. 1 7 Q: And do you recall that Genera 1 1 8 Electric representatives opposed the notion 1 9 of withdrawing Aroclor s 12 5 4 and 12 6 0 from 2 0 the market? 2 1 A: Yes. 2 2 0i Would you flip, finally, Mr. 2 3 Papageorge, to the page which is numbered 2 4 on the bottom 52 08. I s it your 2 5 recollection that by the time of this Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019707 306 1 report to the committee you and others 2 work ing with you were disappointed in the 3 resistance to degr adat ion to some of the 4 isomers in Aroclor 1242? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And was it your belief at the time 7 that that resistance tended to confirm the 8 belief that some of the 5 and 6 chlorinated 9 biphenyls being found in the environment 1 0 could be residue from degraded Aroclor 11 1 2 4 2 ? 1 2 A: Yes. 1 3 Q : Let me show you a document that 14 bears production numbers Tran 006174 and 1 5 6 17 5, appear ing to be a copy of a 1 e tter 1 6 from J.G. Jim Bryant to Mr. Lou Shoa f f a t 1 7 Westinghouse. 18 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 9 110 9 mark'd for identification) . 2 0 A : I have, read the document. 2 1 Q: Have you seen that document before 2 2 today? 2 3 A: Yes. 2 4 Q: And is that a letter from Mr. 2 5 Bryant to Mr . Sho a f f ? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019708 3 07 1 A: Yes. 2 Q: Did you attend a meeting with 3 Westinghouse representatives in St. Louis 4 in Apri1 of 1970? 5 A: I did. 6 Q: And Elmer Wheeler, Doctors Keller 7 and Tucker were also present? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And a s well a s Dr. Richard and Dr. 1 0 Munsh? 1 1 A: Yes. 1 2 0i At that meeting the replacement 1 3 product Aroclor 1242 was a subject of 14 discussion? 1 5 A: One of the subjects, yes. 1 6 01 At that time, do you know what 1 7 percentage of sales were represented by 18 purchases of Aroc1 or products or mixtures 1 9 from Monsanto by Westinghouse, either in 2 0 pounds or dollars? 2 1 A: No, I do not. 2 2 0: Do you know whether Westinghouse 2 3 was a substantial customer? 2 4 A : Well, the word substantia1 is 2 5 rather vague. They were one of the bigger Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019709 3 08 1 customers. 2 Q: Were they a s big a s G.E.? 3 A: I don't believe so. 4 Q: Were they in the same order of 5 magnitude as G . E . ? 6 A: One could say that, yes. 7 Q: Let me show you a document that' s 8 dated May 2 7 , 19 7 0 , Mr. Papageorge , and it 9 appears to be a memo with an attachment 1 0 from you to a Mr. Dur 1 a nd in Tokyo, and it 1 1 bears s eque ntia 1 product ion number 0 8 5 3 2 1 1 2 through 2 3 . We'll have that marked as the 1 3 next exhibit. 1 4 (Deposit ion Exhibit Number 1 5 1110 mark'd for identification). 1 6 A: I have reviewed the document. 17 Q: Is that memorandum a memorandum 1 8 that you wrote to Mr . Dur 1 and on or about 1 9 May 2 7 , 197 0? 2 0 A: Yes. 2 1 Q : And describe , if you wou Id , the 2 2 a11 a chment to that memorandum. It's 2 3 labeled "present plan"? 2 4 A : The attachments ? 2 5 Q: Yes. It's a two page document Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019710 3 09 1 entitled "Present plan" . 2 As It enumerates the approved 3 Monsanto program relating to sale of PCBs 4 and proper hand 1ing thereof . 5 Q: Did that six point plan emanate 6 from a meeting of the corporat e management 7 commi11 e e ? 8 A: Emanate? This was discussed at 9 such a meeting, and the six points were 1 0 approved by that commi11ee. 1 1 Q: Were the six points approved by 1 2 the corporate management committee at the 1 3 same meeting for which Exhibit 1108 was the 1 4 presentation you gave, or a different 1 5 meeting ? 1 6 A : 11 was a different meeting . 1 7 Q: Was it approximately a month or so 1 8 after the meet ing to which you referred in 1 9 connection with Exhibit 1108? 2 0 A: Yes. 2 1 Q: And can you recall the 2 2 circumstances under which the six point 2 3 plan was deve loped for a May 197 0 meeting 2 4 of the corporate management committee? 2 5 Strike that. Let me put it this way, was Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019711 3 10 1 the bus iness group d i r ect ed to come up with 2 a plan? 3 A : Fo1lowing the Apri1 meeting, the 4 corporate management commi11ee instructed 5 the business group to arrange for a 6 subseguent meet ing and come up with a plan 7 that had target dates that were not a s 8 extended a s the original proposal. I n 9 other words , speed up the program. And the 1 0 meeting in May did do that. 1 1 Q: And the six point plan which is 1 2 dep i ct ed in the attachment to your memo to 1 3 Mr . Dur 1 and is the plan that was approved 1 4 by the corporate management committee at 1 5 their May 1970 meeting? 1 6 A: Yes. 1 7 Q: Who drafted or who participated in 18 the drafting of the six point plan? 1 9 A: The six point plan was drafted by 2 0 John Mason. I cannot speak a s to who 2 1 participated in the development of these 2 2 six points a s he put it together . 2 3 Q: Did you give Mr . Mason any 2 4 suggestions as to the components or timing 2 5 to be used in the six point plan? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019712 3 11 1 A: Yes. 2 Q: And to your knowledge, did Mr. 3 Mason adopt any of those suggestions? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Which ones? 6 A: Oh, I believe I commented on all 7 six of thos e . Some of my comments were 8 supportive. I don't recall anything in 9 particular that was originally mine and 1 0 mine alone. My participation really was 1 1 one of serving a s a sound ing board . I was 1 2 in Europe at the time. He called me long 1 3 distance and, actually, he read the script 1 4 that he was going to use, and I was 1 5 commenting considerably regarding the 1 6 points he was raising in that text . And 17 then when he came to his six points , I 1 8 don't know that I cont r ibuted anything that 1 9 he didn't already have there . 2 0 Q: Was it your understanding that the 2 1 six point plan reflected in the attachment 2 2 to your memo to Mr . Dur land covered the 2 3 treatment of all Aroclors in mixed 2 4 products? 2 5 A: 11 was intended to cover all Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019713 3 12 1 Ar o c1or s, yes. 2 Q: And what about mixed products? 3 As Well, Aroclors no, matter whether 4 they were sold a s Ar oc lor s or a s 5 ingredients in other products . 6 Q: Turning for one moment to your 7 memo to Mr . Dur land . Mr. Dur 1 and was part 8 of the MMK organization, 9 Monsanto-Mitsubishi? 1 0 As Yes. 1 1 Q: And his title, do you remember? 1 2 A s I don't recall it. 1 3 Q: Did he have a responsibility , in 14 part, for dealing with the PCB issues that 1 5 had arisen as of this t ime? 1 6 A s Yes. 17 Q s Was it your understanding in May 18 of 19 7 0 that the only Aroc lor s which at 19 that time were considered biodegradable are 2 0 Ar o c1 or 12 2 1 and a fractionally distilled 2 1 Ar o c 1 or 12 4 2 that did not conta in the 2 2 higher chlorinated isomers? 2 3 A s Yes. 2 4 Q s And the fractionally distilled 2 5 A r o c 1 o r 1 2 4 2 to which I've just referred, Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019714 3 13 1 that was referred to at the time as Aroc 1 or 2 1 2 4 2 B, is that correct? 3 A: That is orrect. 4 0i By the time -- by May of 19 7 0 -- 5 or, let's put it this way, by the end of 6 May of 19 7 0 you had been in your position 7 for approximately five months, correct? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And during that time had you 1 0 undertaken to learn the customers to which 1 1 PCB products were sold? 1 2 A: As much as I could, yes. 1 3 Q: By the end of May 197 0 were you 14 aware that there was a product known as 1 5 Turbinol 153? 1 6 A : Certain 1y. 17 Q: Were you aware of the customer or 1 8 customers to which it was sold by that 1 9 time? 2 0 A: At the time I was shown a list. 2 1 Not having adequate background, I had no 2 2 way of really understanding what that list 2 3 was telling me. But I did recognize that 2 4 on that list were what I'm going to call 2 5 sophisticated companies , they were not mom Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019715 3 14 1 and pop operations in the sense of lack of 2 sophistication or lack of resources. 3 Q: What kind of sophistication are 4 you referring to? 5 A: Oh, this can fill the whole gamut 6 of business management, technology, access 7 to all kinds of resources , whether they be 8 money or talent of all kinds , whether 9 they're in-house or available . By talent , 1 0 I'm talking, now, engineering, medical, 1 1 f inancial and so on. Have I helped you? 1 2 Q: You're referring to a list of all 1 3 customers or a list of customers broken 1 4 down by type of product? 1 5 A: Well, my thoughts apply to any 1 6 list, when I glance at it, based on what 17 knowledge I may have , I kind of -- I think 18 1 can pretty well pick out those who have 1 9 the resources and what I ' m going to still 2 0 call the mom and pop operation that is on a 2 1 shoestring , barely getting by, doesn't even 2 2 understand some of the terminology we use. 2 3 So, there is differences in customers. 2 4 Q: Did you ever see a list of the top 2 5 2 0 customers for Aroclors and Ar o c1o r Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019716 _____________________________________________________________ 3 15 1 products? Not ever , but in the first six 2 months of 1970. 3 A: I don't know that ther e was ever 4 such a list, top 2 0 . No. I don't recall 5 such a list. 6 Q: Do you recall ever seeing a list 7 of the top 2 0 customers for Pydrauls? 8 A: No. 9 Q : You including among the customers 1 0 who you would refer to as sophisticated 1 1 General Electric? 1 2 A: Certainly. 1 3 Q : And Westinghouse? 1 4 A: And Westinghouse. 1 5 Q: Among the six points identified on 1 6 the present plan which is the attachment to 1 7 your May 2 7, 19 7 0 memo to Mr. Dur la nd, 1 8 where did you fit Turbinol 153 at the time, 19 i f you did? 2 0 A: This program does not address the 2 1 situation that it would apply to a Turbino1 2 2 153 use. 2 3 Q: And why is that? 2 4 A: Well, for one, it was not 2 5 perceived as a non-biodegradable Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019717 3 16 1 chlorinated bipheny 1 as understood at that 2 time. And, number two, it was perce i ved to 3 be used in a contr o liable end use a s 4 distinguished from the expression seen in 5 item one, non-controllable end use. 6 Q : I'm sorry, did I understand you to 7 say that the product -- that a s of May 1970 8 the product known a s Tur b i no 1 153 was not 9 understood to include a non-biodegradable 1 0 bipheny1? 1 1 A : That's right. 1 2 Q : Did you understand that Turbino 1 1 3 153 was composed in part of Aroclor 1242? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q : And if the -- if a product was 1 6 not specif ically covered in one of these 1 7 categories a s being identified for 1 8 termination of sales, did you anticipate 1 9 that sales would continue? 2 0 A : Certainly. 2 1 Q: Wou Id it be fair to say that, 2 2 actua lly, this is a seven point plan with 2 3 the inf er ence being that if it's not 2 4 specifically prohibited it could continue 2 5 as a product for sale? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019718 3 17 1 A: Yes. 2 Q: You mentioned that the 3 understanding at the time was that Turbinol 4 15 3 was be ing used -- was not be ing used 5 in a non-controllable end use, is that 6 right? 7 A : That's our understanding, yes. 8 Q: From whom did you acquire that 9 understanding? 1 0 A: From the individuals in Monsanto 1 1 who were close to the customer and 1 2 understood that this materia1 was going to 1 3 that customer and the type of use it was 1 4 in, and the relationships with that 1 5 customer in terms of understanding this 1 6 product and being well aware of what it is 1 7 and what it can do and so on. 1 8 Q: You referred to that customer, 1 9 you're referring to one customer, right? 2 0 A: Well, I'm talking in generalities, 2 1 am I not? 2 2 Q: I don't know. Are you? Are you 2 3 referring to one customer or more than one 2 4 customer? I'm talking now about -- I ' m 2 5 sorry. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019719 3 18 1 A: The comments I made refer to any 2 relationship between the Monsanto people 3 and the customer as it relates to virtually 4 every product. 5 Q: Okay . So, in your comments of a 6 moment ago you were referring to the 7 par adigma tic cust omer? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: With specific reference to 1 0 Tur b i no 1 15 3 did you know in May of 1972, 1 1 to what company or companies that product 1 2 was being sold? 1 3 A: At the time I knew, yes. 1 4 Q: And at the time, that is to say, 1 5 May 1970, was it your understanding that 1 6 Turbinol 15 3 was being used by that 17 customer or those customers in uses that 1 8 were not non-controllable? 1 9 A: No. I had the opposite 2 0 understanding, that these uses were 2 1 controllable. 2 2 @i Right . Who was the customer or 2 3 who were the customers that you understood 2 4 were purchasers of Turbino1 153 in May of 2 5 19 7 0? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019720 3 19 1 A: The one I do remember was Texas 2 Eastern, for sure, primarily because it was 3 the largest customer. There were other s on 4 the list that I -- as I indicated, I 5 rea1ly have f orgotten, they were so small . 6 Q: You indicated yesterday that one 7 was Co1umbia Gulf Transmission Company? 8 A : Yes, c o1umbia Gulf come s to mind. 9 But I , again, cannot recall the dates. 1 0 Now, you mentioned 1970. 1 1 Q: I did. 1 2 A: 19 7 0, I just don't recall with any 1 3 c 1 ar ity who was on that list, really, other 14 than Texas Eastern. 1 5 Q: Do you recall the names of the 1 6 Mons anto employees who were responsible for 1 7 that account in 1970? 18 A: I certainly recall the manager of 1 9 that group , or that team, Norm Johnson, for 2 0 sure. I don't recall the exact dates when 2 1 other individuals became involved. I 2 2 recall a Larry Bradf ord. I think his 2 3 initials are C.L. , but I never knew what 2 4 the C stood for. Ther e is a Roger Hatton . 2 5 I'm having difficulty recalling the other Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019721 ____________________________ _____________________ 320 1 name . There is at least one more person 2 that I'm having difficulty recalling. 3 Nevertheless, those are the people that I 4 relied on. Primarily Mr. J ohnson, really. 5 He was my contact. 6 Q: Your contact for the purposes of 7 Turbinol 15 3 alone or for other products as 8 well? 9 A : For his whole assignment , his 1 0 whole product line. 1 1 Q: What was his product line? 1 2 A: His product line, I sugge st , was 1 3 the use of industrial fluids in many, many 1 4 applications. 1 5 Q: Was he primarily responsible for 1 6 the Pydrau1 product 1ine? 17 A: Pydraul was one of his lines . 18 Vacuum pump oils were in his product line. 1 9 Tur b ino 1 was a product line. 2 0 Q: Turbinol was a product line in and 2 1 of itself? 2 2 A: Well, I don't know how to describe 2 3 it. Turbino1 was a product line intended 2 4 for turbine use. Santovac represented a 2 5 product for va cuum pumps and so on. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019722 _____________________________________________________________ 3 2 1 1 Q : Did either Mr. Johnson or Mr. 2 Bradford or Mr . Hatton or someone else 3 provide you with inf onat i on about the 4 application or use of Turbinol 153 by Texas 5 Eastern as of May 197 0? 6 A : They gave me a brief overview of 7 the type of app1ication, yes. 8 Q: And do you recall approximately 9 when they gave you that brief overview? 1 0 As The first half of 1970. 1 1 Q: And do you recall what -- rather, 1 2 do you recall which of the gen11 emen I've 1 3 named or any other names , persons who 1 4 actually provided you with information? 1 5 A : Principa1ly, Norm J ohnson. 1 6 Q : When you say principa1 ly , it 17 suggests that others also provided 1 8 information. Do you recall - 19 A : Bits and pieces . In Norm 2 0 J ohnson's absence, I would contact whoever 2 1 was available in the office area and touch 2 2 on some points that were either fuzzy in my 2 3 thinking or I had misunderstood. That kind 2 4 of conversation kind of took on -- rather 2 5 informally, really, it was not a structured Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019723 322 1 kind of meeting or anything. 2 Q: In 1 9 7 0 did Mr . Johnson or anyone 3 working for you provide you with a written 4 summary of the use to which Texas Eastern 5 was putting Turbinol 153? 6 A: I don't recall any written 7 summary. I just don't recall that, no. 8 Q: Do you recall what description any 9 of Mr. Johnson or his colleagues gave you 1 0 of the application of Turbino 1 153 by Texas 1 1 Eastern? 1 2 A: I recall the reference to its use 1 3 in turbines that are used to prope 1 gas in 14 transmission systems. And I recal1 the use 1 5 of the Turbinol in thes e turbines. Really, 1 6 that ' s about it. I didn't need to know too 1 7 much more than that for my purposes . 1 8 0: Why is that? 1 9 A: Well, I certainly wasn't going to 2 0 maintain them or design them or -- 2 1 Q: Were you interested in finding out 2 2 whether an application was an open 2 3 application or closed application? 2 4 A: Well, certainly, I was inf ormed in 2 5 such a way that led me to believe that Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019724 323 1 these were closed systems . You don't have 2 the fluid spraying out, and once through 3 kind of thing. This is a recycling or kind 4 of self-contained kind of system. 5 Q: Do you recall what it was that was 6 explained to you or that you were told that 7 led you to the cone lus ion that you reached 8 with respect to whether the turbine use was 9 a closed system or a n open sy stem? 1 0 A: I don't recall the exact words. 1 1 In my mind, from our discussions , I related 1 2 it an awful lot to the oil in my car engine 1 3 kind of app1ication. 1 4 Q: Did you have any responsibility , 1 5 Mr. Papageorge, with respect to seeing to 1 6 it that the six point plan described in the 1 7 attachment to your May 2 7 , 19 7 0 memo was 18 imp 1emented? 1 9 A : Yes. I was expected to mon i tor 2 0 the activities, to get f eedback a s 2 1 reflected in those monthly reports , and -- 2 2 it's really a monitoring and reporting 2 3 activity . And if I sensed that the 2 4 activity was stalling or not moving a s 2 5 quickly, I would make it a point to sit Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019725 324 1 down with the manager and get some action . 2 Q : Was the six po int plan as 3 described in that attachment imp 1emented in 4 full by the dates which are ref lected in 5 the plan? 6 A? Some of the dates were ext ended . 7 Q: Extended by the corporate 8 man agement commi11 e e? 9 A: Yes. 1 0 Q: At the request of the business 1 1 group? 1 2 A: Yes. 1 3 Q: And which dates were those? 14 A: Oh, I recall some delays 1 5 encountered in the NCR paper application, 1 6 for example. I recall some delays 1 7 encountered in the hydraulic applications. 18 These delays I'm taIking about were 1 9 primarily of a technical nature. The 2 0 research program can't be controlled that 2 1 easily. The results determine what actions 2 2 take place, so the timing just didn't match 2 3 what we had hoped for. 2 4 Q : By the way , was Tur bi no 1 1 5 3 A ever 2 5 sold to a customer? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019726 325 1 A: No. 2 Q: Do you know why not ? 3 As No. 4 Q: Do you know if 1 2 4 2 B was 5 ultimately used a s a component part of 6 hydraulie f1uids? 7 A: 11 was never used in hydraul ic 8 fluids . 9 Q: Do you know why not? 1 0 A: By the time 1 2 4 2 B, or then known 1 1 a s Ar o c1o r 10 16 was commercia 1 ly availab 1e, 1 2 the program in the laboratory regarding the 1 3 reformulation of hydraulie fluids was going 1 4 quite well with the phosphate ester 1 5 chemicals , and it was dec ided by those 1 6 responsible for that product line to 1 7 concentrate on the phosphate ester approach 18 rather than end up with a product line that 1 9 had some or both of each. 11 was a 2 0 business decision, and I was not invo1ved . 2 1 Q: To the best of your recollection, 2 2 when did work start on reformulating 2 3 products with pho sphate esters? 2 4 A: I thought we covered that earlier. 2 5 Q : I don't r emember pho sphate Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019727 326 1 esters. 2 As Well, it had to do with the 3 reformulation of hydraulic fluids . And 4 that study -- that started before I 5 arrived on the scene , and of cour s e , 6 continued through 1970, 1971. 7 (Discussion off the record). 8 MR. TALLOM: Let me show you a 9 document that's been marked a s -- rather, 1 0 has product ion numbers Tran 0 3 7 7 5 2 through 1 1 5 4 and appears to be exc erpts from the 1 2 minutes of a corporate management c ommi11 e e 1 3 for S eptember 14 , 19 7 0 . We'll mark that. 14 (Deposit ion Exhibit Number 1 5 1111 mark'd for identification) . 1 6 A: I've reviewed it. 17 Q : Can you identif y that document, 18 please, Mr. Papageorge? 1 9 A: This document is a copy of 2 0 port ions of the minutes of the meeting of 2 1 the Monsanto corporate management committee 2 2 meeting held on September 14, 1970. 2 3 Q s And did you get a copy of these 2 4 excerpts in October of 1970? 2 5 A: I did. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019728 327 1 Q: Did the corporate management 2 commi11ee approve an extension with respect 3 to cert a in of the dates which had been 4 contained in the previously approved six 5 point plan? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Did you make any presentation at 8 any meeting that requested such an 9 extension? 1 0 A: Did I personally? 1 1 Q: Yes. 1 2 A: No. 1 3 MR. PREUS S: To the CMC ? 14 MR. TALLOM: Yes. Did any person 1 5 that you know about make any presentation 1 6 to the CMC that was a request to make the 17 extension or grant the extension? 18 A: Yes. 1 9 Q : Who? 2 0 A : Mr . Mas on. 2 1 Q: Do you know whether phosphate 2 2 esters ultimately replaced PCBs in 2 3 hydraulic fluids? 2 4 A: Yes. 2 5 Q : Starting when ? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019729 328 1 A: Some of them were rep lacing PCBs 2 early 1971, as I recall. 3 Q: In what products? 4 A: One of the Pydrauls . I can't 5 recall just which one. I'd have to see 6 some notes to refresh my memory. 7 0i Just to touch back on someth ing 8 you said a moment ago, the pho spha t e 9 esters, was there a particular person who 1 0 was responsible for development of 11 phosphate ester replacements to PCBs that 1 2 you recall today? 1 3 A: I think I'd respond by saying that 14 the particular person responsible is Dr. 15 Richard, and he had a team of several 1 6 individuals working on phosphate ester 17 studies. 1 8 Q: All right. Thank you. Let me 1 9 show you a document, just one page, and it 2 0 bears production number Tran 0 3 7 2 62 , which 2 1 we will have mark ed a s the next exhibit . 2 2 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 3 1112 mark'd for identification) . 2 4 A: I have read the document. 2 5 Q: Have you seen this document Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019730 329 1 before, Mr. Papageorge? 2 As I don't recognize it. 3 Q : Do you recognize the handwriting 4 to the extent that it's legible? 5 As I believe I do. 6 Q s And whose handwriting do you 7 believe that it is? 8 As Mr . Bergen's . 9 Q s Did you ever -- rather , in early 1 0 1970 did you participate in any meetings 1 1 preparatory to meeting with General 1 2 Electric on the subject of the continued 1 3 manufacture of Aroclors 1254 and 1260? 1 4 A s I did not participate in any 1 5 prepa ratory discussions , no. 1 6 Q s But you did participate in 1 7 meetings with General Electric? 1 8 A s Yes. 1 9 Q s Let me show you another document , 2 0 which is titled "The PCB pollution 2 1 problem", and bears production numbers Tran 2 2 022030 through 039. 2 3 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 4 1113 mark'd for identific at ion) . 2 5 MR. TALLON s Take a moment and Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019731 330 1 review that, please. 2 A: I have reviewed the document. 3 Q: Can you identify that document, 4 Mr . Papageorge? 5 A: Yes. It's a copy of minutes to a 6 meeting held in St. Louis on January 21 and 7 2 2 , 1970, with Monsanto representatives and 8 General Electric representatives on the 9 subject of the PCB pollution problem. 1 0 Q : You were present at that meeting? 1 1 A : I was. 12 Q: This was not long after you took 13 on your new position? 1 4 A : That' s true. 15 Q : By the way, after J anuary 1 , 197 0 , 16 did you cont inue to be plant manager a t 1 7 Anniston? 18 A : For a whi1e, yes. 19 Q: Until a replacement was 2 0 ident i fied? 2 1 A: Yes. 2 2 Q: How long a while was that? 2 3 A: Most of the month of J anuary , a s 2 4 best I recall. 2 5 Q: Do you remember being at this Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019732 331 1 meeting? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: Do you remember that a t the 4 meeting there was discussion with the 5 General Electric representatives of the 6 status of toxicity tests then under way? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q : Do you recall that Elmer Whe e 1 er 9 reported that the toxicity tests results 1 0 then available were not a s favorable a s had 1 1 been hoped or anticipated? 1 2 A: Yes. 1 3 Q: Do you recollect discussion with 14 the General Electric representatives 1 5 regarding the degr ada t ion of PCBs in the 1 6 environment? 1 7 A: Yes. 1 8 Q: And do you reca 11 that one or more 1 9 Monsanto representatives stated that PCBs 2 0 up to and including 3 chlorine atoms appear 2 1 biodegradable in preliminary lab work? 2 2 MR. PREUSS : Where are you? 2 3 MR. TALLON: I was reading from the 2 4 bottom of page 3 . 2 5 A: Yes. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019733 332 1 Qi Do you also recall that one or 2 more Monsanto representatives also 3 indicated that at that time there was no 4 evidence that higher chlorinated biphenyls 5 will biodegrade? 6 A : That's true. 7 Q: There is a reference on page 5, 8 Mr. Papageorge, to Monsanto's program to 9 handle scrap. Do you see that? 1 0 A : I do. 1 1 Q : How do you under stand the use of 1 2 the term scrap in that context, if you have 1 3 an understanding? 1 4 A: This is intended to refer to 15 materials containing PCBs. And the 1 6 reference to scrap is applied to those 17 PCB-containing materials which, because of 1 8 some defect , are not suitable for use in 19 any known application, and, theref ore, must 2 0 be disposed of. 2 1 Q: Did G.E. propose that Monsanto 2 2 dispose of the scrap by buying it back? 2 3 A: That was a topic of discussion, 2 4 yes. 2 5 Q: Did Monsanto subsequently buy back Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019734 333 1 scrap from G . E . , or take it back? 2 A : On a very 1 imited basis . 11 was 3 not a successful program. 4 @i Do you recollect discussion at the 5 meeting with the General Electric 6 representatives in late January 1970 of 7 whether there was evidence of natura 1 8 sources of PCBs in the environment? I was 9 referring specifically to item 12 on page 10 8 . 1 1 A: That discussion did come up . 1 2 Qi And do you recol lect one or more 1 3 Monsanto representatives stating or 1 4 agreeing with the statement that there is 1 5 no ev idence of natur a 1 sources of PCBs nor 1 6 any s ource other than industrially produced 17 and used PCBs in the environment? 1 8 A: Yes. And keep in mind, this 1 9 refers to PCBs with the -- I ' m going to 2 0 call it f ingerpr int of the man-made 2 1 material. 2 2 Q: Was there any discussion at this 2 3 meeting about whether G.E. would a s s ume 2 4 legal liability for its use of Aroclors 2 5 1254 and 1260? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019735 ________________ ________________________________ ____________ 3 3 4 1 A: There was some discussion, yes. 2 Q: And was General Electric requested 3 by one or more Monsanto representatives 4 whether it would assume legal liability for 5 use of Aroc1 or 12 54 and 1 2 6 0? 6 A: 11 was asked of them, yes. 7 Q : Did one Monsanto representative 8 ask that question or more than one, or do 9 you remember? 1 0 A: I really don't remember. 1 1 Q: And did, in fact, a Monsanto 1 2 representative ask whether G.E. would 1 3 assume sole and complete liability for its 1 4 use of Aroclors 1254 and 12630? 1 5 A: The topic was raised and 1 6 discussed, yes. 17 Q: And the G.E. representatives 1 8 indicated a n unwi11ingness to do so, is 1 9 that right? 2 0 A : That is correct. 2 1 Q : Was there also discussion at the 2 2 meeting about anticipated price increases 2 3 associated with sales of Aroc1 or s 1254 and 2 4 12 6 0? 2 5 A: Yes, sir. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019736 335 1 Q: Did one or more Monsanto 2 representatives state at the meeting that 3 Monsanto's pollution control expenses would 4 warrant a price increase with respect to 5 those products? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: And do you recollect the substance 8 of the discussion on that topic? 9 As The substance was that in 1 0 responding to the PCB environmental issue , 1 1 Monsanto was incurring unanticipated costs, 1 2 not only in the studies, but in the search 1 3 for alternative materials , and s omehow 1 4 those bills had to be paid, and it would 1 5 have to be reflected in the selling price 1 6 of the products still sold. 17 Q: Okay. Did the General Electric 1 8 representatives indicate at this meeting 1 9 that they wanted to continue to use 2 0 Aroclors 12 5 4 and 12 6 0 for the applications 2 1 they had been using them? 2 2 A : They did. 2 3 Q: And did the Monsanto 2 4 i v e s a t this meeting indicate 2 5 that they wanted to continue selling those Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019737 336 1 Aroclors to G . E . ? 2 A : Yes. With the proviso that G . E . 3 do all it can to keep it out of the 4 environmen t. 5 Q: G.E.'s application was to fill 6 transformers with mixtures including 7 Aroclors 1254 and 1260? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And you considerthat to be a 1 0 closed use? 1 1 A: Yes. 1 2 Q: Did you, in 1970 , consider NCR's 1 3 use of Ar o c 1 o r 12 4 2 to be a n open use? 1 4 A: Yes, definitely. 1 5 Q : I ndeed , it could be said that 1 6 NCR's use of Aroc lor 12 4 2 was among the 17 most open, is that right? 1 8 A: One couId arrive at that 1 9 conclusion easily, yes. 2 0 Q: And that is because that the 2 1 carbonless carbon paper was disposed of a s 2 2 ordinary garbage in landfills or it was 2 3 burned or otherwise no special precautions 2 4 were taken with respect to its handling, 2 5 right? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019738 337 1 A: That is correct . 2 (Noon Recess) . 3 MR. TALLON: Mr. Papageorge, we 4 were talking, among other things , before 5 lunch about the understanding that you had 6 acquired during 19 7 0 about the use to which 7 Texas Eastern Transmission Company put the 8 Monsanto product Turbinol 153. Do you 9 remember that we did touch on that topic? 1 0 A : I do remember. 1 1 Q: Did I understand you to say that 1 2 it was your understanding that Turbinol 153 1 3 contained a non-biodegradable biphenyl? 1 4 MR. PREUSS : As of the time of -- 1 5 MR. TALLON: 1970. 1 6 A : In 19 7 0 -1 7 MR. PREUSS : Well, I'm just going 1 8 to object, because the context of the 1 9 question was a t the t ime of the April 2 0 meeting. 2 1 MR. TALLON: All right . Let me ask 2 2 you, then, did you have an understanding at 2 3 any point during 197 0 that the product 2 4 Turbinol 153 contained non-biodegradable 2 5 biphenyls? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019739 338 1 A: As defined by those knowledgeable 2 about PCBs in 1970, yes. 3 Q : Okay. Did your understanding with 4 respect to the components of Turbinol 153 5 related to their non - - to their 6 biodegradability change at any time? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And when did that change occur? 9 A: 11 was -- well, initially there 1 0 was this speculative discussion regarding 1 1 the possibility that some of the higher 12 chlorinated parts of 12 4 2 might be in the 1 3 environment . There was no hard evidence , 14 just speculation. That, of course, planted 1 5 the thought in all of us that were involved 1 6 with PCB that if this were possible , we 1 7 have got to do something to study it, to 1 8 determine whether it's truthful. And this 1 9 initiated the - - resulted in the 2 0 biodegradation studies that we talked 2 1 about . Those studies indicated that those 2 2 higher chlorinated components in Aroclor 2 3 1242 resisted degradation. So you make 2 4 another speculation that these tests showed 2 5 this, therefore, some of the PCB being Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019740 339 1 found out in the environment could have 2 started out as a 12 4 2 , but, years later we 3 look at it and it doesn't look like 12 4 2 , 4 it looks more like Aroc 1 or 12 5 4. So, I 5 would sugge s t that in my mind that 6 understanding was fairly firm in, I would 7 sugge st , the latter part of 197 0 or 8 there about s , pretty well implanted. 9 Q: Were you aware a t any time that 1 0 Turbinol 153 consisted of something in 1 1 excess of 7 5 percent Ar o c1o r 12 4 2 ? 12 A: Yes. 1 3 Q: Do you recollect that at the 14 January 1970 meeting with General Electric 1 5 Monsanto representatives stated that there 1 6 was no evidence that tetrachlorobiphenyls 17 degraded in the environment? 1 8 MR. PREUSS: Well, can we have a 19 reference? 2 0 MR. TALLON: Yes, that would be 2 1 fine with me. Actually, page 3 . 2 2 A: Which exhibit? 2 3 Q: Yes, I'm assuming that you've got 2 4 your hands right on it. It's the one you 2 5 have your hand right on. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019741 340 1 At What's the number? This one. All 2 right. 3 Q : For the record, we'll refer to 4 that by number , now that we have identif ied 5 it, a s 1113. And if you look a t the bottom 6 of page 3 . 7 HR. PREUSS : What's the question? 8 HR . T ALLON : The question was, a t 9 the January '70 meeting with General 1 0 Electric , did Monsanto representatives 1 1 indicate that there was no evidence that 1 2 higher chlorinated biphenyls will 1 3 biodegrade? And the "higher" is in the 14 connotation of three chlorine atoms 1 5 referred to in the imm e dia t e1y preceding 1 6 sentence. 1 7 HR. PREUSS: I object to a 1 8 mischaracterization of the document. The 19 document speaks for itself. And , further, 2 0 paragraph C and E would shed light on the 2 1 quest ion. 2 2 HR . TALLON : Okay . Why don't we 2 3 answer the question first, and then we can 2 4 shed light on it later. 2 5 HR. PREUSS: Okay. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019742 341 1 A: As I recall the que stion, there is 2 evidence -- there is no evidence that 3 Monsanto was aware of that, that the higher 4 chlorinated would resist degradation. But 5 by higher they meant higher than 3. 6 Q: Higher than 3 chlorine atoms? 7 A: 3 and below, there was evidence 8 that they did degrade. 9 Q : Is tetrachlorohipheny a higher 1 0 chlorinated biphenyl , a s you understand the 11 use of that term in numbered paragraph 2 on 1 2 the bottom of page 3 ? 1 3 A : 11 would be inc luded in that 14 1 5 Q: Do you know t oday what other 1 6 components were in Turbino1 153? 1 7 A: Not specifically. But I recall 1 8 there was a monochlorobiphenyl type of 19 product , Aroc1or 12 2 1. And I also recall a 2 0 phosphate ester, but I'm having difficulty 2 1 remembering the specific ester that was 2 2 used. 2 3 Q : Turbinol 1 5 3 A was a proposed 2 4 reformulation of Turbino1 153, is that 2 5 right? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019743 342 1 A t That is correct. 2 Q: And you believe that that was a 3 reformulation using terphenyls? 4 A : As one of the ingr ed ients . 5 0: And was it your understanding that 6 the terphenyls replaced the biphenyls in 7 the reformulation that was being 8 considered? 9 A: Yes. 1 0 Q : And, to your knowledge , when did 1 1 the reformulation program to use terphenyls 1 2 commence? 1 3 A: Fairly late in '71. 1 4 Q: Just to clarify that for a moment, 1 5 if you would , I want to refer back to your 1 6 memorandum dated December 7, 1970, which I 17 can help you find in the stack of 18 exhibits . 1 9 MR . PREUS S : 110 6. 2 0 MR. TALLON: I think that's it 2 1 there .On page 7 of that memo there is a 2 2 reference to Turbinol 15 3 A under the 2 3 caption "Pydraul reformulation-Factory 2 4 Mutua1 visit" . 2 5 A: Yes. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019744 343 1 Q: I believe you indicated that the 2 reformulated product s referred to in that 3 paragraph were terpheny1 reformulations , is 4 that not correct? 5 A: Many of them are, yes. 6 Q : What about Turbino1 15 3A? 7 A : That's included , yes. 8 Q: So this memorandum is dated 9 December 7, 1970, correct? 1 0 A: I was in error, I should have said 1 1 late '70. 1 2 Q : So it was '70, not '71? 1 3 A : Not '71, correct. 1 4 Q : And the particu1ar paragraph that 1 5 we were just looking at indicates that the 1 6 Factory Mutual representative visited the 1 7 fire test facility November 4 and 5, do you 1 8 see that? 1 9 A: Yes. 2 0 Q: Was that , by the way, a Monsanto 2 1 fire test facility? 2 2 A: Yes. 2 3 Q: Located here in St. Louis? 2 4 A: Yes. 2 5 Q: In order for the Factory Mutual Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019745 344 1 representative to have tested or observed 2 tests of Turbino1 15 3 A, reformulation would 3 have had to have occurred and resulted in 4 some samples by November 4th and 5th, 197 0 , 5 right? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: So, a t least by the beginning of 8 November 19 7 0 the Turbinol 15 3 A 9 reformulation had been produc ed in test 1 0 quantities? 1 1 A : Or a version of 1 5 3 A . I don't 1 2 know how many dif f erent recipes were titled 1 3 15 3 A . 14 Q: Was it typical to have more than 1 5 one recipe use the same nomenclature? 1 6 A: Oh, yes. When you 're testing, you 1 7 just tryt all kinds of combinations . 1 8 01 Was is it your understanding that 1 9 whether there was one or more than one 2 0 combination of Turbinol 15 3 in the time 2 1 period under discussion, that those were 2 2 terphenyl reformulations of that pr oduct? 2 3 A: Yes. The designation A indicates 2 4 the presence of terphenyls. The amount of 2 5 terphenyl and type of terphenyl could vary. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019746 345 1 Q : I see. And do you have any sense, 2 a s you sit here today, how long before 3 November 4th reformulation of this 4 particular product had commenced? 5 A: No, I do not. 6 Q: Let me show you a document , Mr . 7 Papageorge, which is dated January 2 9 , 19 7 0 8 and bears production numbers Tran 025002 9 through 003. 1 0 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 1 1114 mark'd for identification) . 12 A: I have read the document . 1 3 Q? I s that a memorandum from Scott 1 4 Tucker to Dr. Keller dated J anuary 2 9, 1 5 1970? . 1 6 A: It is. 1 7 Q: Did you receive a copy of that on 1 8 or shortly after its date? 1 9 A : I did. 2 0 Q : After you a s sumed your position a s 2 1 of J a nuary 1 , 19 7 0 , did you become aware 2 2 that there was ongoing a biologically 2 3 populated river water degradation study? 2 4 A: Yes. 2 5 Q: Was that study being conducted by Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019747 346 1 Monsanto or an outside laboratory? 2 A : By Monsanto. 3 Q: Where? 4 A : In St. Louis . 5 Q: And did you become aware that 6 Aroclors 1221, 1242, 1248 and 1254 were 7 being tested in that study? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And did you become aware that the 1 0 -- after completion -- or , r ather, after 1 1 completion of the initial biologically 1 2 populated river water degradation studied 1 3 on those Aroclors the results indicated 1 4 that under the conditions emp1oy e d in the 1 5 test Aroclors 12 4 2 , 12 4 8 and 12 54 remained 1 6 unaffected after an exposure period of five 17 weeks? 1 8 A: Yes. 19 Q: And that the major isomers in 2 0 Aroc1or 12 2 1 are readily degraded? 2 1 A: Yes. 2 2 Q: And did you also become aware that 2 3 a s of the time that you assumed your 2 4 posit ion as of January 1, 19 7 0, there was 2 5 ongoing semi-continuous activated sludge Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019748 347 1 degradation studies? 2 As Yes. 3 0i Were those undertaken by Monsanto? 4 A : Yes. 5 Q: Did Mr . Tucker have responsibility 6 for both of these studies to which we have 7 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: And did you learn that the results 1 0 of the semi-continuous activated sludge 1 1 degradation stud i es were that the major 1 2 isomers of Aroc1or 1221 were readily 1 3 degraded? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And, additionally, that there were 1 6 indications that some of the 1ower 17 chlorinated isomers in 12 4 2 and 12 4 8 were 1 8 beginning to be a f f e c t e d ? 1 9 A: Yes. 2 0 Q: Do you know what methodology Mr. 2 1 Tucker used -- or Dr. Tucker used to test 2 2 the s amp 1es in thes e studies? 2 3 A : There were two studies . 2 4 Q : Right . 2 5 A: I have a n understanding of what Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019749 348 1 procedures were used. 2 Q: Do you know that whether in 3 analyzing his results he used gas 4 chromatography? 5 A : Oh, certainly. The analytical 6 methods were those that were developed a s 7 of 19 7 0 for PCB ana lys i s in waters and 8 s1udges. 9 Q: During 19 7 0 and 19 7 1 were you 1 0 copied on most memos having to do with PCB 1 1 environmental contamination issues, so far 1 2 as you know? 1 3 A: I was copied in on many. I don't 1 4 know how to measure the total, therefore, I 1 5 can't tell you if it was most. 1 6 Q: Was it part of your job to keep up 17 with the correspondence that you got? 1 8 A: As it related to the environmental 1 9 issue , not a s it related to other matters , 2 0 such as market ing and pricing and the like. 2 1 Q: Did you have responsibilities for 2 2 marketing and pricing? 2 3 A: No. 2 4 Q: Did you have any responsibilities 2 5 with respect to profitability in the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019750 349 1 functional fluids group? 2 A : No . 3 Q: Who had responsibilities for 4 profitability in the functional fluids 5 group in 1970 and 1971? 6 A: That would be Mr . Bergen. 7 Qi He was the head of that group? 8 A: Yes . 9 Q: I'd like to show you a one page 1 0 memo from Scott Tucker to Mr. Lidgett, 1 1 dated February 18, 1970. 12 (Deposit ion Exhibit Number 1 3 1115 mark'd for identification) . 14 MR. T ALLON: Would you take a 15 moment to review that document , Mr. 1 6 Papageorge. 1 7 A: I have read it. 1 8 Q: I s this a memorandum from Scott 1 9 Tucker to Mr. Lidgett in Ruabon, dated 2 0 February 18, 1970? 2 1 A : 11 is. 2 2 Q: Did you get a copy of that on or 2 3 after February 18, 1970? 2 4 A : I did. 2 5 Q: As of the time you as sumed your Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019751 350 1 position as of January 1, 19 7 0 , was there a 2 program ongoing to substitute brominated 3 biphenyls for the polychlorinated 4 biphenyls? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: And when, to your understanding , 7 had that program been instituted? 8 As As I recall , it was about the 9 middle of '69, a s best I can recall . 1 0 Q : Aroc 1 or 12 2 1, is that a compound 1 1 with which you became familiar after you 1 2 took on your position January 1 , 19 7 0? 1 3 As No. 1 4 Q s Was it a compound with which you 1 5 were familiar before you took on that 1 6 position? 1 7 A s Yes, sir. 1 8 Q s Was it your understanding in 19 7 0 , 1 9 or be f ore, that Aroclor 12 2 1 included 2 0 biphenyls to which no chlorine atoms had 2 1 attached? 2 2 A s There was some amount of the 2 3 unchlorinated biphenyl present , yes. 2 4 Qs And did it come to your attention 2 5 in 1970 that Scott Tucker had observed that Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019752 351 1 Aroc1 or 12 2 1 showed significant degradation 2 and that he believed this is probably due 3 to its high bipheny 1 content? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q: Let me show you a document bearing 6 product ion numbers Tran 02 17 05 through 7 7 07. 8 (Deposition Exhibit Number 9 1116 mark'd for identification) . 1 0 As I have reviewed the exhibit . 1 1 Q : Can you identify that exhibit, 1 2 please, Mr. Papageorge? 1 3 A: This is a copy of a monthly 1 4 report, this particular one covering two 1 5 month s , January and February 197 0 , for 1 6 research work per f ormed for functional 1 7 fluids by the research department's 1 8 analytical chemistry group. 1 9 Q: I s this a periodic report issued 2 0 by that group? 2 1 A : 11 is. 2 2 Q: And you got a copy of this? 2 3 A: Yes. 2 4 Q: There is a reference on the first 2 5 textual page, page 02 17 0 6 , to a n effluent Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019753 3 52 1 sample from the fifth settling pond at the 2 BMC Central Foundry Division. Do you see 3 that? It's in the first sentence in the 4 second paragraph. 5 A: I see it, yes. 6 Q : Do you know what BMC Centra 1 7 Foundry Division is ref erred to there? 8 As I don't recognize that customer . 9 Q: Do you recollect that this report 1 0 indicated that the effluent referred to 1 1 contained about 10 parts per million of 1 2 apparent PCBs which were not identical to 1 3 either Aroclor 12 4 2 or Aroc1or 12 4 8 , but 1 4 like a mixture of the two? 1 5 A: I understand that. 1 6 Q: I don't know if this is the ent ire 17 report or not, but there is a reference 1 8 right at the top of the first page which 1 9 reads "Aroclor defense" . Do you see that? 2 0 A: Yes. 2 1 Q: Had you seen that same term used 2 2 in other memoranda? 2 3 A: There were some individuals in the 2 4 research department that used that to 2 5 describe the Aroc1 or PCB environmental Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019754 353 1 issue. 2 Q: Did Dr. Richard use that term? 3 A: He was the originator of that 4 term, yes, sir. 5 Q: Did Dr. Richard ever exp lain to 6 you the reason why he selected that 7 particular term? 8 A: No, he didn't. 9 Qi Did Dr. Richard ever -- well, was 1 0 Dr. Richard ever encouraged to discontinue 1 1 using that term? 1 2 A : Encouraged by who? 1 3 Q: To discontinue using it, by any 1 4 person. 1 5 A: Not that I'm aware of. 16 MS. PREU88 : Just for the record, 17 it does appear that it's not complete , 1 8 since the sentence starts on the bottom of 1 9 the second page there , the second numbered 2 0 page. 2 1 MR. TALLON: Right . There is no 2 2 third page. Let me show you another 2 3 monthly summary, Mr. Papageorge, this one 2 4 from March 19 7 0 , bearing product ion numbers 2 5 Tran 0 2 4 3 9 7 and 3 9 8 , which we '11 have Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019755 354 1 marked as the next exh i b it . 2 (Deposition Exhibit Number 3 1117 mark'd for identification) . 4 A : I have read the exhibit. 5 Q : I s this a research and de ve 1 opment 6 report for March 1970? 7 A: Yes. 8 Q: And you got a copy of this? 9 A: I did. 1 0 Q: Were these reports rendered in 1 1 connection with any kind of peri od i c 1 2 meeting? 1 3 A: No. This was a report of the 1 4 activities of this particular group by 1 5 month. 1 6 Q: Do you recollect learning in or 1 7 about March 1970 that Lake Michigan fish 1 8 had been collected and examined using the 1 9 GC mass technology? 2 0 A: Yes. 2 1 Q: Do you know - - or, rather do you 2 2 recollect whether the analysis was 2 3 conducted by Monsanto or by the Wisconsin 2 4 Alumni Research Foundation or some other 2 5 entity or group? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019756 ______ ;_______________________________________ _______________3 5 5 1 A: The analyses were conducted by 2 both Monsanto and the Wisconsin Alumni 3 Research Foundation as a cross-check on the 4 results obtained by both laboratories. 5 Q: Did the results of the Monsanto 6 analysis yield the conclusion that 7 polychlorinated aromatics containing 3 8 through 6 chlorine atoms per molecule with 9 mass numbers corresponding to chlorinated 1 0 biphenyls were found in two of the four 1 1 extracts? 1 2 A: Yes. 1 3 Q : There is a reference in the f our t h 1 4 paragraph to the -- to a WGK plant, do you 1 5 see that? 1 6 A: Yes. 1 7 Q: Do you know to what that refers? 18 A : That' s the W.G. Krummrich plant, 1 9 which is the Saujet, Illinois plant . 2 0 Q: And is that near St. Louis? 2 1 A: Right across the river here, yes. 2 2 Q : The paragraph refers to downstream 2 3 river water s amp 1ing? 2 4 A: Yes. 2 5 Q: Do you know how downstream, how Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019757 3 56 1 far downstream samples were collected? 2 A: I don't, no. 3 Q: And do you know whether downstream 4 river water that was analyzed as described 5 in that paragraph contained PCB typical of 6 Aroc 1 or 1 2 4 2 at the 5 parts per million 7 level? 8 A : That was reported, yes. 9 Q: Did you meet with 1 0 of the Wisconsin Alumni Research 1 1 Foundation? 1 2 A : I did. 1 3 Q: When did you do so? 1 4 A: I believe it was 1971. 1 5 Q: Was it in connection with the 1 6 analysis of the Lake Michigan fish referred 1 7 to in the functional fluids research and 1 8 development report that we just 1 ooked at? 19 A: That was one of the topics 2 0 discussed, yes, sir. 2 1 Q : Did the Wisconsin Alumni Research 2 2 Foundation use the same analytical approach 2 3 as Monsanto did in analy zing those fish? 2 4 A r Basically the same. But the two 2 5 communicated pretty closely Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019758 ___________________________________________________ _________ 3 57 1 for a period of time to the po int wh ere 2 eventually the WARF laboratory was using 3 the Monsanto method. 4 Q: Did you from time to time refer 5 Monsanto customers to WARF? 6 A : I be 1ieve I did, yes. 7 Q: And for what pur pos e did you do 8 so? 9 As This was usually in response to an 1 0 inquiry regarding reputable laboratories 1 1 that could conduct ana lyses , and I included 1 2 the WARF laboratory as one of them. 1 3 Q: As one of the reputable 1 4 laboratories? 1 5 A: Yes. 1 6 Q : Let me show you a document that 17 bears product ion number Tran 06 04 5 3 , which 1 8 purports to be a memo from R. A. Baxter to 1 9 Dr. Richard , dated 2 5 February 197 0 . 2 0 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 1 1118 mark'd for identification) . 2 2 A: I have read it. 2 3 Q: Though you are not shown as a 2 4 copyee in the typewritten portion of this 2 5 memo, it does appear that someone has Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019759 3 58 1 written your name in the upper left-hand 2 corner of the document, perhaps indicating 3 that you were to receive a copy. Do you 4 reca 1 1 receiving a copy of this memo? 5 A: I did receive it, yes, sir. 6 Q : Was that Dr. Richard who sent it 7 to you? 8 A : Yes. 9 Q: There is a reference in the f ourth 1 0 paragraph that indicates that from R. A. 1 1 Baxter's point of view it looks as show the 1 2 higher chlorinated biphenyls are highly 1 3 resistant to biodegradation. Do you recall 1 4 reading that? 1 5 A: Yes. 1 6 Q: That same paragraph goes on to 1 7 state that "even the lower ones seem to 1 8 require the presence of biphenyl itself, at 1 9 any rate under the conditions we have 2 0 examined so far" . Do you have any direct 2 1 knowledge of what is meant by the 2 2 t e rm i no 1 ogy that the 1 ower ones seem to 2 3 require the presence of bipheny1 itself? 2 4 A : I have an understanding . 2 5 Q : What's your understanding? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019760 3 59 1 A: That at least up to this point in 2 time the micro-organisms , the bacteria that 3 were used to degrade mixtures of PCBs 4 seemed to be more effective if there was 5 s ome biphenyl pres ent. I have never been 6 told or given any explanation a s to why 7 this happens. 8 Q: When you referred to biphenyl , are 9 you referring to bipheny1 which is not 1 0 accompanied by any chlorine atoms attached 1 1 to the benzene rings? 1 2 A : Exactly. 1 3 Q: After you took on your position 1 4 starting in J anua ry of 1970 , did you be come 1 5 familiar with river die-away studies that 16 were conducted by Monsanto or by a 17 labor atory working for Monsanto? 1 8 A : Certainly. 1 9 Q: What's your understanding of the 2 0 terminology river die-away study? 2 1 A: That was the term that was 2 2 eventually used to describe the studies, 2 3 the reports of which we've seen, in which 2 4 Dr. Tucker and his team took water from the 2 5 Meramec River here in Miss ouri, naturally Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019761 3 60 1 occurring water, took it to the laboratory 2 and introduced into that water different 3 types of PCBs and then periodically 4 analyzed that water to see what, if 5 anything, was happening to the PCBs . That 6 is the river die-away. The die-away had 7 reference to the disappearance of some of 8 the PCBs. 9 Q: And was it a conclusion of the 1 0 river die-away studies that Aroc1or 1221 1 1 disappeared? 1 2 A: Yes, sir. 1 3 Q: And was it also a conclusion that 1 4 Arociors 1242, 1248 and 1254 were 1 5 undegraded in the river die-away studies? 1 6 A: Undegraded? Essentially, that's 17 true, yes. The identity of those materials 1 8 r ema i ned the same a s the original , yes. 1 9 Q : And were you awa re of shake flask 2 0 studies being undertaken by Monsanto in the 2 1 United Kingdom during the course of 1970? 2 2 A: Yes. 2 3 Q: And what is a shake flask s tudy ? 2 4 A: Flask is a glass container used in 2 5 laboratories, sort of an inverted funnel Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019762 3 61 1 shape , in which the material being tested 2 is included, along with the media, the 3 cu1ture, and the culture contains bacteria 4 which are be 1ieved -- at least the 5 bacteria are being tested to see if they're 6 effective. And the given amount -- or 7 known amount of PCB is added, and these 8 flasks are mounted bn a device that's sort 9 of an oscillating platform that just keeps 1 0 shaking them, and after periods of time 1 1 samples are withdrawn and analyzed and the 1 2 amount of PCB present is determined. 1 3 Q : Samp 1 es of the liquid in the 14 flasks were withdrawn and examined? 15 A: Yes. Not only liquid, but the 1 6 solids , also. It's the composite. 17 0i Were the liquids evaporated b e f ore 1 8 the samples could be ana ly z ed or were the 1 9 1iquids analyzed, also, in 1970? 2 0 A : The PCB methodology invo1ved some 2 1 procedures up front for taking the sample 2 2 as is, extracting the PCBs from it -- and 2 3 that, incidentally, is the hard part of 2 4 this who 1e procedure. And it's this 2 5 extract that -- we have references to Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019763 ____________________________________________________________________3 6 2 1 extracts and all, that extract is what's 2 run through the machine. 3 Q: Let me show you a document dated 4 July 17 , 19 7 0 with production numbers Tran 5 036322 through 6324, which we'll ask the 6 court reporter to mark. 7 (Deposition Exhibit Number 8 1119 mark'd for identification) . 9 A: I have reviewed the document. 1 0 Q : Flip, if you would, please , Mr. 1 1 Papageorge , to page 2 and to, in 1 2 particular, the discussion under the 1 3 caption "MCS 1016" . 1 4 A: I see it. 1 5 0i The M- 1 0 1 6 , again, is the product 1 6 which is synonymous with Aroclor 12 4 2 B ? 1 7 A : It's MCS 1016. You said M- 1 6 . 1 8 Q: I may have. MCS 10 16 is 1 9 synonymous with Aroc1 or 12 4 2 B? 2 0 A : Correct. 2 1 Q: And I take it that from your 2 2 discussion in paragraph 4 on page 2 that 2 3 certain cus tomer s were under the impression 2 4 that MCS 10 16 was comp 1etely biodegradable? 2 5 A: That was the misimpression that Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019764 363 1 was present in some locations , yes. 2 Q: Which capacitor customers are 3 referred to, if you recall? 4 A: Oh, I don't remember specifically, 5 no . 6 Q: MGS 10 16 was not fully 7 biodegradable, as you understood it at that 8 time? 9 MR. PREUSS : That time being July 1 0 of 1970? 1 1 MR. TALLOM: Yes. 1 2 A: Fully -- they were fully 1 3 degradable under the right conditions with 1 4 enough time. But they were not 1 5 instantaneously degradable like, for 1 6 example, sugar w a ter. 1 7 Q : Do you know the amount of time 1 8 involved for 1016 to degrade fully? 1 9 A: No. Because, again, this depends 2 0 on several f actors : concentration , 2 1 presence of the right kind of bacteria , 2 2 other chemicals in the environment, 2 3 presence or absence of heat, presence or 2 4 absence of light, and so on. 2 5 Q: I n either case -- or, rather , in Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019765 364 1 any case, it was your view in July 19 7 0 2 that neither Aroc1 or 12 4 2 nor MCS 1016 3 could be dumped into the environment? 4 A : That is correct. 5 Q: There is a specific ment ion at the 6 end of that same paragraph to less 7 controllable hydraulic fluids applications , 8 do you see that? 9 A: I do. 1 0 Q: Which applications did you have in 1 1 mind with respect to that particular 1 2 sentence? 1 3 A: The kind of applications we'd find 14 in diecasting plants , processes that used 1 5 high pressure hydraulic machinery. 1 6 Qi Where the possibility existed for 17 a hose or line rupture? 1 8 A : Yes. That kind of th ing . 1 9 Q : MCS 1016 was considered for use in 2 0 capacitors? 2 1 A: Yes. 2 2 Qs And it was your understanding at 2 3 the time, that is to say, July 19 7 0 , that 2 4 capacitors would be filled with 2 5 materiaIs including MCS 1016 and then Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019766 3 65 1 sealed? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q : Let me show you a document which 4 is dated as of April 7 , 19 7 0 , and appears 5 to be a memo from you to Mr . Bergen and 6 others, to which is attached another 7 document. In series, the document numbers 8 are STR 001530 through 1539. 9 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 0 112 0 mark'd for identification) . 1 1 A: I've scanned the article . 1 2 Q : Can you identif y the memorandum 1 3 and the document which is attached to it? 1 4 A: The memorandum is authored by me 1 5 and a ddre s s ed to member s of Monsanto's 1 6 management -- top management of the 1 7 business groups that dealt with PCB 1 8 products in 19 7 0 . Attached to it is a 1 9 summary prepared by me regarding the status 2 0 of the PCB environmental issue and a 2 1 listing of objectives that I was proposing 2 2 to this group of addressees, followed, 2 3 then, by an action plan listing those 2 4 activities which I felt would help achieve 2 5 the listed objectives. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019767 _______________ ________________________ _____________________3 6 6 1 Q : Were the objectives what you 2 believed to be the ob j ect i ves of the 3 business groups? 4 A : It's really the obj ective s of the 5 individuals assigned to the business groups 6 and addressed to the managers of the 7 busines s group. 8 Q: The memorandum, which is addressed 9 to Mr . Bergen, Mr . Mason and other s , 1 0 ind icates that the plan was rev iewed with 1 1 representatives of a variety of 1 2 departments, including the business group s 1 3 concerned. Was that the case, that, in 1 4 fact, this plan was rev i ewed with the 1 5 medica1 , legal, public relations 1 6 departments and the business groups 1 7 concerned? 1 8 A: True. 1 9 Q : And what individua1s from the 2 0 business groups were you referring to? 2 1 A : Well, I was re f erring, for 2 2 examp 1e , to Mr. Bergen's research director, 2 3 marketing director , manufacturing manager. 2 4 I believe that covers his group . And the 2 5 same type of team from Mr . Spr inggate ' s Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019768 3 67 1 group. 2 Q: Did you understand it to be an 3 obj ective of the business groups in April 4 1970 -- in fact, did you understand it to 5 be the overa 11 obj ective of the business 6 groups in April 19 7 0 to manage the PCB 7 pollution problem to prevent it from 8 adversely affecting the established return 9 on investment return obj ectives of the 1 0 groups? 1 1 A: That was the consensus of those 1 2 individuals that worked to put thes e 1 3 thoughts together. 1 4 Q : Do you recall that Mr. Mason 1 5 re sponded to your draft plan in writing? 1 6 A: Yes, I do. 1 7 Q: One more thing be fore we leave 1 8 this document . On the very last page ther e 1 9 is a section entitled "V. Costs" . 2 0 A : I see it. 2 1 Q : Did you develop that list of 2 2 costs , or did you develop it in conjunction 2 3 with members of the business groups? 2 4 A: Oh, this was developed in 2 5 conjunction with all of those representing Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019769 __________________________________________________ ___________3 6 8 1 the members of the departments listed on 2 the cover memo, the second paragraph, 3 medical, legal and the business groups . 4 0? The dollar figure is stated in 5 thous ands , is it not? 6 A: Yes. 7 Qi So 6 7 5 thousand was the total 8 ant ic ipated cost for 197 0 with the program 9 des cribed in this plan? 1 0 As That is correct. 1 1 0: And was it -- did you anticipate 1 2 at the time you drafted this that some or 1 3 all of those costs would be defrayed by the 1 4 continued sale of s ome of those products, 1 5 including PCBs? 1 6 A: I would hope so, yes. 1 7 0 : Let me show you a document which 1 8 is dated April 9, 197 0, and bears 1 9 production numbers Tran 0 0 5 5 4 9 through 2 0 5551, which we'll ask the court reporter to 2 1 mark. 2 2 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 3 112 1 mark'd for identification) . 2 4 A : I've reviewed the memorandum. 2 5 0 : I s this a memorandum to you from Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019770 __ ____________________ 3 69 1 Mr. Mason commenting on your draft plan 2 which was conveyed to him by your April 7, 3 1970 memo? 4 A: Yes. 5 Q : And did you discuss the comment s 6 that Mr . Mason out 1 i ned in this memo with 7 him? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: Did you make cha nges to your draft 1 0 plan as a result of these comments? 1 1 A: I did. 1 2 Q: And as you understood it at the 1 3 time, in brief, how did Mr . Mason want to 1 4 vary the plan as put together by you? 1 5 MR . PREU8 8: Well, I object 1 6 inasmuch as the document speaks for itself. 17 MR . TALLON: True. Summariz e it, 1 8 would be fine. 1 9 A : I'll try to summarize. One point 2 0 that Mr . Mason was truly trying to get is 2 1 to offer more background and specific kinds 2 2 of information to the group, the president , 2 3 cha irman of the board and his 2 4 vice-presidents. He felt that I was 2 5 assuming they had all the background that I Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019771 370 1 had . So he felt it would help to bring out 2 specific examples of the kinds of 3 situations we were encountering, and also 4 share with them some of the activities that 5 we were conducting relating to 6 communicating with the authorities , various 7 laboratories . And he wanted me to give 8 them, really, status reports on Monsanto's 9 programs regarding toxicity testing and 1 0 analytical method deve1opment and the 1 1 search for alternative materials. And he 12 also, as I recall , was very interested in 1 3 conveying to these high level individuals 14 the reaction of the electrical equipment 1 5 manufacturers regarding the cessation of 1 6 the use of Ar oc lor 12 54 and 12 6 0 in 1 7 electrical equipment. 1 8 Q: On that point in particular were 1 9 you planning to recommend that Monsanto not 2 0 terminate sales of 1254 and 1260 to 2 1 electrical equipment manufacturers? 2 2 A: At what point in time? 2 3 Q: At this point in time. 2 4 A: At this point in time? As I 2 5 recall, by this time we had concluded -- Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019772 371 1 because of assurances from the electrical 2 equipment manuf actur er s that they could 3 contain the equipment and handle the 4 mat eria 1 , PCB material properly , we 5 cone luded that with that kind of as sur ance , 6 with reputable companies, that the safety 7 benefits more than outweighed the little 8 risk that might result from an occasiona 1 9 mishap, and we were ready to go to bat and 1 0 recommend that we cont inue the use of 1254 1 1 and 1260, but limited to the electrical 1 2 industry. 1 3 Q: The"we" referred to in your answer 1 4 includes you and Mr . Mason? 15 A : Mr . Mason and Mr . Bergen , all of 1 6 those of us that were de ep ly i n vo 1 ved . 1 7 Q : Did Mr . Mason indicate to you that 1 8 one of his goals was to maintain maximum 1 9 profitability for his group while 2 0 preserving a responsible image of Monsanto 2 1 as a company? 2 2 As As businessmen, that is their 23 2 4 Q : One other thing on your draft plan 2 5 while you have it before you, Mr . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019773 372 1 Papageorge -- skip it. By the way, did 2 you attend the April 2 0 , 197 0 CMC meeting, 3 or was that the meeting for which you were 4 overseas? 5 A: That's the meeting where I made 6 the presentation. 7 Q : At that Apr i 1 2 0 , 19 7 0 meeting did 8 the corporate management committee accept 9 parts of the plan that was presented to 1 0 them? 1 1 A: At that meeting top corporate 1 2 management accepted all parts except the 1 3 proposed dates of completion. 1 4 Q : The corporate management commi11ee 1 5 wanted to accelerate the dates of 1 6 comp 1etion ? 1 7 A: Accelerate the program, was their 1 8 obj ective. 1 9 Q : Let me show you a document which 2 0 looks like it has production number s 300 2 1 0524 through 0526. 2 2 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 3 112 2 mark'd for identification) . 2 4 A : I have reviewed the exhibit. 2 5 Q : Is that an excerpt from the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019774 373 1 minutes of the corporate management 2 committee meeting of April 20, 1970 about 3 which you have been testifying for the past 4 f ew moments ? 5 A: Yes. 6 Q: That is the meet ing where you 7 rendered the presentation which we saw 8 earlier today? 9 A: Yes. 1 0 Q : Did you inf orm the corporate 1 1 management committee that the business 1 2 group had maintained an aggressive program 1 3 of cu st omer education? 1 4 A : Certainly, yes. 1 5 Q: And before April 2 0 , 19 7 0 , do you 1 6 have any personal knowledge of any 1 7 communications made between Monsanto and 1 8 Texas Eastern Transmission Corporation 1 9 relating to environmental pollution by 2 0 PCBs? 2 1 A: Can you help me with the 2 2 definition of personal knowledge? 2 3 Q: Do you know of any contacts 2 4 between Monsanto and Texa s Eastern? 2 5 A: I was inf ormed by the manager of Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019775 _______________________ ___________________________________________ 3 7 4 1 the business group that all of the 2 customers that his team related to for the 3 product line assigned to them had been 4 inf ormed. That's the input I had. I was 5 assured that it was done a s they were 6 instructed. 7 Q: I take it from that response that 8 the business people didn't single out Texas 9 Eastern in their discussions with you? 1 0 A: No. 1 1 Q: Or any other customer? 1 2 A : No more than any other , that ' s 1 3 right. 14 Q : Nor did they single out or refer 1 5 to Transwestern Pipeline Company more so 1 6 than any other customer? 17 A : That is correct . 1 8 Q: And did you ever see documentation 1 9 such as call reports which supported 2 0 cus tomer contact by those business people 2 1 during this period? 2 2 A: I saw some call reports. 2 3 Certainly, not all of them. 2 4 Q: Was it the practice of that group 2 5 to maintain call reports with respect to Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019776 375 1 client communications on this issue , so far 2 a s you know? 3 As I don't know what the practice of 4 each group was. 5 Q : And you have not seen a call 6 report dated from this period indicating a 7 communication between Monsanto and Texas 8 Eastern Transmission Company on the PCB 9 environmental issues, have you? 1 0 A: I do not recall any. 11 Q: Nor one indicating communications 1 2 betwe en Monsanto and Transwestern Pipeline 1 3 C omp any ? 1 4 As That is correct. 1 5 Q: Was it the direction of the 1 6 corporate management commi11ee following 17 the April 2 0 , 19 7 0 meet ing that Mons ant o 1 8 should discontinue sales of PCB products by 1 9 June 1 , 19 7 0 for all uses except for 2 0 trans f ormer and capacitor ba1 lasts ? 2 1 A: Can you help me locate that? 22 Q: Yes. I was looking particularly 2 3 at the bottom of page 2 of this three page 2 4 document and over to the top of page 3 . 2 5 A: That reflects the conclusions of Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019777 376 1 this particular meeting on this subject. 2 However , that June 1 date was changed by a 3 meeting within a monthon this same 4 subj ect . 5 Q: At a subs equent meeting the 6 business group requested an extension of 7 the June 1st date, right? 8 A : S evera 1 extensions , based on the 9 dif f erent applications. 1 0 Q : Right. But just to be clear , a s 1 1 of the April 2 0 , 19 7 0 date, it was the 1 2 direction of the corporate management 1 3 committee that by June 1 , 19 7 0 , sales of 1 4 all uses except for transformers, c apa citor 1 5 ballasts and NCR should be discontinued? 1 6 A: That is correct. 17 Qi And it was a further direction of 1 8 the committee that a replacement product 1 9 should be developed on a crash basis for 2 0 the NCR app1ication? 2 1 A : That is correct. 2 2 Qi I s it fair to say, Mr . Papageor ge , 2 3 that this direction was not we 1 come to the 2 4 business group? 2 5 MR. PREUS S: I object a s Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019778 377 1 argumentative and ambiguous , a s to what you 2 mean by we 1 come. 3 A: I don't know that the word welcome 4 is appr opr i at e . They just felt that there 5 was a misunderstanding among these 6 individuals regarding the complexity of the 7 issue and the ability to do what they said 8 in about two month's time. 11 was 9 unrealistic. So, I guess in that sense it 1 0 was unwelcome . But it was more a case of 1 1 they got to go back and explain it better , 1 2 because this is much more complex than it 1 3 appeared to be . 14 Q : Was there any surprise among 1 5 members of the business group with whom you 1 6 communicated about these directions from 17 the corporate management committee? 1 8 A : Certainly. 19 Q : Was it your reading of those 2 0 directions from the corporate management 2 1 committee that the corporate management 2 2 committee intended to put the division out 2 3 of business? 2 4 MR . P R E U 8 8 : Based upon what 2 5 happened at the meeting itself? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019779 378 1 MR. TALLON: Yes, that's right. 2 As No. My reading is that the 3 business groups would continue to exist, 4 but the PCB product line would be severely 5 reduced, and it was a hope among all 6 concerned that alternative materials could 7 be found or existed to replace the PCBs in 8 many of the uses. So, the bus iness groups 9 would still continue selling a different 1 0 line of products. 1 1 Q : Was it your understa nd i n g that a t 1 2 the April 2 0 , 197 0 meeting the corporate 1 3 management committee took the position that 14 by June 1 , 19 7 0 , the division should be out 1 5 of the business of selling PCB products 1 6 except for capacitor ballasts , transformers 17 and NCR until a substitute product was 1 8 developed? 1 9 A: That was the conclusion of that 2 0 session, yes. 2 1 Q : Let me show you one other document 2 2 about which I have , I think, one que s t i on . 2 3 And that is a document which bears 2 4 production numbers Tran 021797 through 25 799 . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019780 379 1 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 112 3 mark'd for identification) . 3 As I have reviewed the exhibit. 4 Q : That's another version of the 5 minutes of the same meeting, correct? 6 At 11 appears to be , yes, sir. 7 Q: I s the handwriting on the first 8 page recognizeable to you as Mr. Bergen's? 9 A: Yes. 1 0 Q: Did you have any meeting or 1 1 discussion with Mr. Bergen in late April or 1 2 May of 1970 about these minutes? 1 3 A: No, I don't recall any discussion 1 4 with Mr. Bergen regarding these minutes, 15 because we left for Europe and didn't come 1 6 back until May. There was no discussion 1 7 with me, anyway. 18 Q : Mr . Bergen did not accompany you 1 9 on that trip? 2 0 A : That is correct. 2 1 Q: He remained behind? 2 2 A : Correct. 2 3 Q: And is it your understanding that 2 4 he set about preparing to communicate 2 5 further with the corporate management Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019781 380 1 committee to explain that these directives 2 were not implementable? 3 A: It's my understanding that he 4 spoke to his supervisor, Mr. Mason, and 5 expressed his op ini ons to him. What they 6 were , I don't know. But I do know they 7 met . And Mr. Mason was chosen by his 8 super ior to be the spokesman for the next 9 meeting. 1 0 Q: Do you remember Mr. Bergen doing 1 1 any talking on behalf of the organic 1 2 division at the April 2 0 , 19 7 0 corporate 1 3 management commi11ee meeting? 14 As No. Mr. B ergen did not speak. 1 5 (Recess). 1 6 MR. TALLON: Mr . Papage orge, by 17 April 19 7 0 had you attempted to give any 18 content to the terms open system and closed 1 9 system? . 2 0 A: This -- I'm assuming you're 2 1 talking about a definition of what we meant 2 2 by those? 2 3 Q: Yes. 2 4 A: You mean for my own understanding 2 5 or to - - Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019782 381 1 Q: In order to fulfill your job 2 3 A: I had my -- yes. I had an 4 understanding that -- what was meant by 5 the use of those terms . 6 Q: Were the use of those terms or the 7 definitions of those terms refined over 8 time after you took over your position? 9 A: Help me with the word refined. 1 0 You mean were they altered or changed? 1 1 Q: Not so much altered a s made more 12 specific a s different customer applications 1 3 bee ame understood or known. 1 4 A: The basic definition of a closed 15 system remained constant. 11 was defined, 1 6 really, by the fact that the PCB liquid , 17 which is really why we addressed all this, 18 was contained in materials that would not 1 9 allow it to ooze out, leak out, drip out, 2 0 et cetera , and the -- with proper 2 1 maintenance of the facilities in which it 2 2 was found, wouldn't freely discharge into 2 3 places that eventua1ly would allow it to go 2 4 out into the environment. These systems, 2 5 of course , had to be properly designed to Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019783 382 1 prevent such things a s fumes going up 2 stacks without being trapped and returned . 3 They had to have the pr oper kinds of 4 gasketing, where pipe flanges were 5 connected so that that gasket could 6 withs tand the PCB, otherwise it would 7 deter iorate and allow the PCB to dribble 8 out . In addition to the fact that the PCB 9 was in this system that did not allow it to 1 0 see daylight, in essence, the concept also 1 1 inc luded the ability of the owner and 1 2 operator to detect any flaws in the sys tem 1 3 quickly, to capture any released material 1 4 soon enough to prevent it from getting out 1 5 of control, using such things that we 1 6 talked about, sand and sawdust and clay. 17 Or to have collecting basins underneath the 18 equipment to collect any drippage and pump 1 9 the spilled material from the collecting 2 0 bas in to something still under control , 2 1 wheth er it be a drum for disposal or a 2 2 storage tank for reuse . An open system was 2 3 one in which no matter how much control one 2 4 wished to exercise , the use was such that 2 5 it was impr a ctica 1 , next to impossible to Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019784 383 1 control . Obvious examples are the traffic 2 lane stripe that's painted on the highway . 3 There is no way to control that paint that 4 erodes with time and usage and to capture 5 each particle with the PCS in it and 6 properly dispose of it. It's out of 7 control. Or the caulking that's around the 8 windows of a skyscraper, when that caulking 9 either deteriorates from time and chips off 1 0 and drops off, there is no way -- 1 1 practical way to control that . Or when the 1 2 building is dismantled, even, it's 1 3 difficult to segregate the PCS caulking 1 4 from the rest of the debris . Adhesives 1 5 that are used in so many applications , 1 6 again, once they're used, it's extremely 17 difficult to monitor exactly where that 1 8 adhesive is used and where it eventually 1 9 ends up . So, those fall under the 2 0 obviously open application concept. Tho s e 2 1 basic understandings of the system prevail 2 2 throughout this whole situation. What did 2 3 change is our understanding of the ability 2 4 of the owner-user to do what's right , even 2 5 though he wanted to do what's right. And I Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019785 384 1 have in mind these high pressure , high 2 temperature systems, even by responsible 3 sophisticated companies , in which the hose 4 under pres sure and use bursts, the material 5 ends up on the floor, and since they also 6 use water to cool the metal , the two mix 7 and they go down into a sewer . That makes 8 control extremely difficult. We learned 9 after a while that a s much a s all of us 1 0 wanted to be able to control this, this 1 1 became defined a s impractica1 , almo st 1 2 wishful thinking, and this is when we 1 3 arrived at the decision that wherever we 1 4 could find a n acceptable substitute , and by 15 acceptable I mean even with some acceptance 1 6 of less than perf ect performance , we were 1 7 going to withdraw from the PCB application 18 and offer the alternative. I've talked too 1 9 much, and maybe I lost the original 2 0 question , but -- 2 1 Q: When did you personal ly have a 2 2 realization that there were closed systems 2 3 that were susceptible of leaking, even 2 4 under optimum conditions? 2 5 A: When did I personally? When we Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019786 ________________________ _______________________________ ____________3 8 5 1 first announced our program of withdrawal 2 from some of the businesses and retained 3 the closed systems we included in there 4 under closed systems, for example, the heat 5 trans f er systems. 11 was in, a s I 6 remember , the middle of '71 where a n 7 incident occurred where PCBs got into an 8 animal feed additive, and that kind of 9 highl ighted, at least to me and to others , 1 0 that a 1 though we sit back and think that 1 1 this is something that can be described a s 1 2 a closed sy stem, to use my expression, the 1 3 PCB shouldn't see day1ight, well, in this 1 4 case it didn't see day 1 ight , it saw animal 1 5 feed. 11 worked its way , instead of out, 1 6 it worked inward. That's an examp 1e of 1 7 s omething that is difficult to predict and 18 control . Another one was in spite of our 1 9 communications with these high pressure 2 0 diecasting machine customers, they were 2 1 still experiencing burst hoses in spite of 2 2 their concerted effort to find better hose 2 3 material and better couplings and try to 2 4 operate at lower pressures where they 2 5 could . In spite of all that effort, these Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019787 ________ ___________________________________________________________ 3 8 6 1 situations were still occurring. And the 2 decision was made in those cases where you 3 have an alternative, even with the 4 sacrifice of a few good properties, let's 5 go to the a 11ernative. 6 Q: When was that decision made, a s 7 best you recall? 8 A: A s best I recall, the decision, 9 really, was based on the success in the 1 0 laboratory that influenced the availability 1 1 of alternates . Starting in late '70, early 1 2 '71, we started to evolve into the 1 3 different product lines. Every product 1 4 was n't hit the same day. 1 5 Q : Were hydraulic systems considered 1 6 to be closed systems? 1 7 A: Yes. 1 8 Q : Yet, I take it you r ecogn i z e that 1 9 hydraulic systems were susceptible of 2 0 failure, leakage? 2 1 A: After a while, yes. After we 2 2 tried everything we knew how. 2 3 Q: Were air compressors considered to 2 4 be closed systems? 2 5 A: Yes. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019788 387 1 Q : Was the air compressor in use at 2 the Pensacola plant a closed system? 3 A: Yes. 4 Q : Did you undertake, I mean you, 5 undertake to learn more about customer 6 applications in order to classify them as 7 closed or open? 8 A : Well, I persona 1ly didn't. I 9 relied, again, on the people in Monsanto 1 0 who had the personal contact. 1 1 Q : But .did you undertake a program to 1 2 speak to business peop1e in order to 1 3 satisfy yourseIf that systems were open or 1 4 closed? 1 5 A: Oh, yes. That was my day-to-day 1 6 mode of operation. 1 7 Q : I n c on sidering whether a system 18 was open or closed, did you at all mon it or 1 9 product consumption by a particular 2 0 customer? 2 1 A: Well, that thought was considered, 2 2 but we quickly found out from a few 2 3 examples that we tested out that the amount 2 4 of purchases did not correctly accurately 2 5 ref 1 ect the amount of loss to the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019789 3 88 1 environment , and it depended on the ability 2 and willingness of the customer to collect 3 the material that was not usable and was 4 being replaced and properly dispose of it. 5 So, when we had, say, a large purchase, 6 we'd pursue that find out oh, yes, the 7 system was drained, the material was put in 8 dr urns and was sent to this incinerator 9 service, so that that large purcha s e didn't 1 0 mean anything. We found, too, that many 1 1 times it was the little purchase that was 1 2 insidious , that drum a month kind of thing 1 3 that we thought well, it was pr obab ly wiped 1 4 up with s ome rags and a little sawdust, it 1 5 turned out that drum a month went out to a 1 6 ditch . So, the amount of sales did not 17 help. 1 8 Q: Although it was also consistent 1 9 with -- it was consistent with continued 2 0 sales to a customer that fluids were being 2 1 used up in some fashion , either by 2 2 change-out or spills? 2 3 A: Well, okay. You say used up. 2 4 Well, all right, if we assume the same 2 5 definition for used up. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019790 389 1 Q: Well - 2 A : They're not consumed in the 3 process , they're somewhere. 4 Q: To use an example that you just 5 used, you indicated that in the case of a 6 large order, for examp 1e, a customer could 7 have replaced the fluid and properly 8 disposed of the drained fluid, correct? 9 A: Right. 1 0 Q : I s it not also consistent with a 1 1 large order that the customer could have 1 2 had a large spill and had not cleaned it up 1 3 in the manner that you cons idered to be 14 proper? 1 5 A: Oh, that's possible, yes. I'm not 1 6 saying it's not possible . But I have no 17 evidence to indicate that operators of that 1 8 large of a piece of equ i pmen t were so 1 9 insensitive that they would treat any 2 0 industrial chemical with total abandon , 2 1 just dump it down the s ewer . I don't know 2 2 that. 2 3 Q: Of course, some leaks and spills 2 4 would occur where, inadvertently, the PCB 2 5 material entered the environment , correct? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019791 __________________________ ________________ __________________ 3 9 0 1 A: That happens on occasion, yes. 2 Q: And is it not the case that 3 customer orders for additional PCB fluids 4 is, among other things, consistent with the 5 possibility that they were losing fluid 6 through leaks and spills? 7 As That is possible, yes. 8 0s That is at least one of the 9 possibilities? 1 0 A: True. I f a pattern of this kind 1 1 of thing was occur ing a t any location , the 1 2 field salesmen wou Id drop by and talk and 1 3 try to get -- ascertain from the 1 4 customer's representatives what kinds of 15 situations were occurring. 1 6 Q: What is the basis for that 17 statement? 1 8 A: Well, one is that this is the kind 1 9 of coaching they were getting during their 2 0 sales meet ings , et cetera . And I don't 2 1 have an example right at hand , but I do 2 2 recall seeing a few call reports made by 2 3 some of the salesmen saying I called on so 2 4 and so and we checked into this, and et 2 5 cetera, needs help, or has got it under Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019792 ____________________ __________________________ ______________ 3 9 1 1 control , or -- so, I do have some inputs 2 that indicate that that has happened. 3 Q: Did you ever see a call report of 4 the type you just described that related 5 either to Texas Eastern Transmission 6 Corporation or Transwestern Pipeline 7 Company? 8 A: I do not recall any. 9 Q: Did you ever see such a call 1 0 report for Columbia Gulf Transmission 1 1 Company? 1 2 A: I don't recall any. 1 3 Q: And I'm referring to the Columbia 1 4 Gulf that you seemed to remember was a 1 5 cus tomer for Turbino1 153. 1 6 A : Yes, I under stand. 1 7 Q: Let me show you a document which 1 8 is a memo to which is attached a series of 1 9 presentation slides, for lack of a more 2 0 precise description, sequentially numbered 2 1 Tran 085281 through 85304, which we will 2 2 have marked. 2 3 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 4 112 4 mark'd for identification) . 2 5 A : I've scanned the document. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019793 392 1 Q: Did you receive the first page of 2 this exhibit from Mr . Mason in May or June 3 19 7 0? 4 As Yes. 5 Q: And was the series of pages 6 numbered 85282 through 85303 attached to 7 that memorandum when you received it? 8 As 11 appears to be the collection of 9 pages, yes. 1 0 Q: On May 11th were you in Europe? 1 1 A: Yes. 1 2 Q: And was it your understanding that 1 3 t h ere was a corporate management commi11 e e 1 4 meeting that day? 1 5 As Yes. 1 6 Q : And a t that meet ing did Mr . Mason 17 present the view of the organic division 1 8 that the posit ion previously adopted by the 1 9 corporate management committee should be 2 0 amended? 2 1 A: That was the intent of the 2 2 presentation. I don't know whether they 2 3 used quite those words. 2 4 Q: And the corporate management 2 5 committee adopted a dif f erent phased plan Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019794 393 1 than previously, correct? 2 A: Correct. 3 Q: And is that plan described on 4 pages 8 5 3 0 and 0 2 of the attachment to Mr. 5 Mason ' s memo? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Into which point of this plan did 8 Turbinol 153 fit? 9 A : You asked this question already on 1 0 these very same -- 1 1 Q: I s this the same plan? 1 2 A: It's the exact same plan. 1 3 Q : It's your belief that it doesn't? 1 4 A: 11 doesn't fit any of these 1 5 categories , therefore, sales will 1 6 cont i nue . And that's all I can say 17 regarding this particular meeting. 1 8 Q: Were there other products in the 19 same category as Turbinol 153? 2 0 A : Certainly . 2 1 Q : Which were those? 2 2 A: Well, the one that comes to mind 2 3 immediately is vacuum pump fluids. 2 4 Q: Is that the Santovac line? 2 5 A: That's under the trademark Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019795 394 1 Santovac. All the other particular product 2 lines are c overed by broad categories that 3 I see her e, such a s the dielectric use and 4 the heat transfer use and the hydraulic 5 applications are all mentioned. And they 6 are mentioned because of a particular 7 reference to a particular property that is 8 being monitered and controlled. 9 Q: Do you have a n understanding a s to 10 whether or not the corporate management 1 1 committee was specifically advised that 12 Turbinol 15 3 and the Santovac line of 1 3 products were not covered by the six point 14 plan? 1 5 A: I am in no posit ion to know if 1 6 they were mentioned. 1 7 Q: Of course, you weren't there? 18 A: That's correct. 1 9 Q: Did Mr. Mason indicate to you at 2 0 any point after the meeting that the 2 1 corporate management committee sanctioned 2 2 the cont inued sale of Turbinol 153 and the 2 3 Santovac line of products as being outside 2 4 the six point plan? 2 5 A : Not to me . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019796 395 1 Q : Did any member of the corporate 2 management committee ever tell you that the 3 committee be 1ieved that the six point plan 4 covered all products? 5 A : No . 6 Q : Did you ever have a discussion 7 with a member of the corporate management 8 committee a s to what products were covered 9 by the six point plan? 1 0 A: No. 11 Q : Recognizing that you were not at 1 2 this particular meeting, Mr. Papageorge, 1 3 there is a page with the title 1 4 "Biodegradation" . The number in the upper 1 5 r ight-hand corner of the page is 6, the 1 6 number at the bottom of the page is 8 5 2 8 7 . 1 7 A : I have it . X 8 Q: Did Mr. Mason ever communicate to 1 9 you his belief that in terms of 2 0 biodegradation the critical product was 2 1 Aroclor 1242? 2 2 A: Yes, that was well understood by 2 3 all of us. 2 4 Q : And did that criticality relate to 2 5 the fact that large quantities of 12 4 2 had Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019797 396 1 been sold by Monsanto? 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: And that a significant amount of 4 12 4 2 was used in open applications? 5 As Yes. 6 Q: By the way, did you at t end 7 successful consideration trials at the John 8 Zink Company in Tulsa? 9 As I was present. 1 0 Q : Did you ever review the 1 1 presentation slides or pages which are 1 2 attached to Mr . Bergen's -- excuse me, Mr. 1 3 Mason's May 11 , 1970 meet ing with him? 1 4 A s No. I was in Europe a t the time. 1 5 Q s I understand. But later did you 1 6 do so? 1 7 A s I don't recall sitting down with 1 8 Mr . Mason and going over these transparency 1 9 copies . I just don't remember that kind of 2 0 discussion. 2 1 Q s Do you know if it was Mr . Mason' s 2 2 view in May of 197 0 that control of 2 3 spillage and pump leakage made the use of 2 4 non-degradable chlorinated biphenyls 2 5 undesirable in hydraulic fluid Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019798 397 1 2 A: Yes, I was aware of that. 3 Q: Let me show you a document which 4 at some point or another has been marked a s 5 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 152 in another 6 matter . It's a one page document which 7 we'll have marked. 8 (Deposition Exhibit Number 9 112 5 mark'd for identification) . 1 0 As I have reviewed the exhibit. 11 Q: Did you see a copy of this 12 document sometime after May 11 , 197 0? 1 3 A: I did eventua1ly, yes. 14 Q: And is this a portion of the 1 5 minutes of the meeting of the corporate 1 6 management committee for May 11 , 19 7 0? 17 A : 11 is. 18 Q: And is this the portionwhich 1 9 adopts the plan of the organic division a s 2 0 presented by Mr . Mason at the meeting held 2 1 May 11, 1970? 2 2 A : 11 is. 2 3 Q: Was it your understanding that the 2 4 corporate management committee had directed 2 5 that no cha nges be made to this plan Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019799 398 1 without their express approva 1? 2 A: I understood that the changes 3 without the approva 1 related to the dates . 4 Further activities to supplement these were 5 not covered. 6 Q: So, it was your understanding that 7 the division could not change any of the 8 effective dates reflected in this plan 9 without the prior approval of the corporate 1 0 management commi11 e e ? 1 1 A : That is correct . 1 2 Q: I note that one of the directives 1 3 of the comm i 11 e e was that the sale of 1 4 Aroc1 or 12 4 2 to NCR wouId be discontinued 1 5 in the United Kingdom, or was planned to be 1 6 discontinued in the United Kingdom by July 1 7 1 , 19 7 0 and in the U.S. by January 3 0 , 1 8 19 7 1. Was that your, understanding of the 1 9 timetable? 2 0 A: At that time, yes. 2 1 Q : Yes. And at that time what 2 2 accounted for the difference betwe en the 2 3 U.K. and the U . S . ? 2 4 A: There were two different 2 5 technologies involved. I don't recall Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019800 399 1 which country had the plastic encapsulating 2 material and which country had clay, and a s 3 I remember, the plastic materia 1 did not go 4 well with the proposed materials H B- 4 0 and 5 MIBP. So, the research effort had to be 6 -- it just was prolonged because of that 7 difficulty, the incompatibility of the new 8 solvent with that plastic encapsulating 9 material. 1 0 Q : Were sales of the S ant ovac 1 1 products ultimately discontinued? 1 2 A: Yes. 1 3 Q: At what time? 1 4 A: About late '71, a s best I can 1 5 recall. 1 6 Q: Do you have any present 1 7 understanding of the number of customers 1 8 for the Sant ovac products in May of 197 0? 1 9 A: No, I don't. There weren't many. 2 0 Q: And do you know whether that 2 1 represented a fairly small portion of the 2 2 overall business of the organic division, 2 3 that is to say, sale of Santovac products ? 2 4 A: 11 was amongst the smaller 2 5 businesses, yes. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019801 400 1 Qi Let me show you a document 2 addressed to you from Howard Bergen dated 3 May 11, 197 0 , two pages , Tran 0853 05 and 4 5306, which we'll ask the court reporter to 5 mark . 6 (Deposition Exhibit Number 7 112 6 mark'd for identification) . 8 A: I have read the exhibit . 9 Q: Did you get this memo from Mr. 1 0 Bergen in May of 197 0 while you were in 1 1 Europe? 1 2 A: Yes. 1 3 Q: Was it your impression that Mr. 1 4 Bergen and others were encouraged that the 1 5 corporate management committee would not 1 6 put the organic division out of business in 17 the spring of 1970? 1 8 MR. PREUS S : I object to the form, 1 9 the document speaks for itself. 2 0 A: More correctly, he was encouraged 2 1 that the corporate management committee 2 2 would not put the functional fluids group 2 3 out of business , and not the organic 2 4 division. 2 5 MR. TALLON: Have you seen this PCB Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019802 401 1 timetable which is attached to the memo 2 from Mr. Bergen before? 3 A : Yes, I have. 4 Qi Was it originally attached to Mr. 5 Bergen's memo? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: There is an indication at the 8 bottom of the memo that non-electrical 9 Aroclors, specifically 1242, 1248, 1254 and 1 0 12 6 0 , that by May 15th all customers would 1 1 be notified by persona 1 contact or letter 1 2 that we will no longer sell non-electrical 1 3 Aroc1or after July 3 1 , 19 7 0 . That deadline 14 was not met, correct? 1 5 A: I have no reason to believe it 1 6 didn't. 11 beats the August 3 0 date that 17 we committed to. 1 8 Q: Were all customers notified that 1 9 non-electrical Aroclors, those identified, 2 0 would not be sold after July 3 1 , 197 0? 2 1 A : As best I know . 2 2 Q: And were any non-electrical 2 3 Aroclors sold after that date? 2 4 A: To the best of my knowledge , no. 2 5 Q: Did those Aroclors continue to be Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019803 402 1 used in products sold after that date? 2 At Certainly, inventories still 3 existed at our customer's plants, yes. 4 Q : Did Monsanto continue to blend 5 products including these Aroclors for sale 6 to customers after that date? 7 A: For certain of their blended 8 products, yes. 9 (Discussion off the record). 1 0 MR. TALLON: Let me show you a 1 1 document which has the sequentia1 number s 1 2 Tran 086384 through 6413, and is covered by 1 3 a note that says "From the desk of W.B. 1 4 Papageorge" , with some handwritten 15 notations, which we'll have marked. 1 6 (Deposition Exhibit Number 1 7 112 7 mark'd for identification) . 1 8 A : I have reviewed the document . 1 9 Q : I s that your handwriting on the 2 0 first page of the exhibit? 2 1 A: Yes. 2 2 Q : And did you make a file note in 2 3 1971 with respect to the pages attached to 2 4 that handwritten note? 2 5 A: That was the intent of that note, Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019804 4 03 1 yes. 2 Q: And you described the pages that 3 comprise this exhibit a s information used 4 by John Mason to report to the corporate 5 management committee in March of 1971? 6 A: Yes. 7 Q: Did you play any role in preparing 8 the individual pages which are attached to 9 your handwritten note? 1 0 A: Not a direct role. I recall Mr. 1 1 Mason dr opp ing by with some notes that he 1 2 had prepared and reviewed those notes with 1 3 me to determine if I had any comments to 1 4 offer. And I don't recall anything unu sua1 1 5 about those notes . They were all 1 6 accurate . And it was my understanding that 17 he was going to use those notes to pr epar e 1 8 tranparencies to be proj ected for his 19 discussion. 2 0 Q : Did he give you those 2 1 tranparencies following the meeting? 2 2 A: This is it. 2 3 Q: And you filed them away after 2 4 reading them? 2 5 A: After reading them and studying Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019805 4 04 1 them I did file them away, yes. 2 Q: Did you study the page which is 3 captioned "Hydraulic applications? " It's 4 page number 8 6 3 8 6 . 5 A: I studied all of them. Yes, I did 6 study that. 7 Q: Okay. Did you note the reference 8 in numbered paragraph 2 that a r o c1o r 12 4 2 9 was then still present in two fluids used 1 0 in gas transmission, that is, closed 1 1 systems? 1 2 A: Yes. 1 3 Q: And what was your understanding of 1 4 what MCS 9 7 4 was, what kind of product? 1 5 A: 11 was a turbine type fluid. I 1 6 have forgotten today what ingredients it 1 7 conta ined, other than the 12 4 2 . And I have 18 forgotten, also, the particular customer 1 9 that was interested at that time. I sort 2 0 of vaguely recall it was intended for some 2 1 new piece of machinery, that the 2 2 manuf acturer of that piece of equipment was 2 3 seeking some sort of fluid in that piece of 2 4 machinery, and this was an attempt to 2 5 satisfy that need. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019806 _____ _____________ _________________________________________ 4 0 5 1 Q: Did you take note of the phrase 2 that appears there, "Plan to try MCS 1016 3 when available?" 4 A: I did. 5 Q: Did you understand that to be a 6 reference to reformulating the two products 7 which are identified in that paragraph 8 numbered 2 ? 9 A: That was the intent, yes. 1 0 0i Do you have an understanding as to 1 1 why Monsanto would want to reformulate a 1 2 product used in a closed system? 1 3 A: Well, as long as the more 1 4 degradable material is available, and would 1 5 test out properly when included in the 1 6 reformulated Turbind , why not use it in 17 the event where occasionally a mishap might 1 8 happen even in transport ing it, you could 1 9 feel a little more comfortable knowing that 2 0 the more degradable materia1 was involved 2 1 rather than that which conta ined the more 2 2 difficult to degrade components . 2 3 Q: There is a specific -- rather, 2 4 not a specific, but an individual page 2 5 which I will find in a moment . Page 86379 , Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019807 4 06 1 which is titled "Turbinol 153 sales" , do 2 you see that? 3 A: I recall seeing it. 4 Q : 3 97 . 5 A : 3 9 7 . I have it. 6 Q: Did you look a t that particular 7 page when you r evi ewed and studied Mr . 8 Mason's slides? 9 A: Along with all the others , yes. 1 0 Q: Did you take note of the fact that 1 1 sales of Turbinol were anticipated to 1 2 increase from 1970 to 1971? 1 3 A: I did. Yes. 1 4 Q: Did you solicit an explanation of 1 5 that from any member of the business group? 1 6 A: Yes. I recall talking to Mr . 17 J ohns on . He expected to get another 1 8 customer. 1 9 Q: Was that other customer Columbia 2 0 Gulf? 2 1 A: I just don't remember. I do know 2 2 that he was hopeful that next year he could 2 3 sell a few more pounds to this customer . 2 4 Q : That is to say, during the course 2 5 of 1971? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019808 _______ _________________ ________ ______________ ____________ 4 0 7 1 A : Yes, '71. 2 Q: Because these slides date from 3 March of '71, correct? 4 As Yes. But these number s were 5 predicted earlier, just reported here. 6 Q: Did you ever hear the term 7 res tricted sales in relation to P C B 8 products? 9 A: Yes. 1 0 Q: And how about the term 1 1 unrestricted sales? 1 2 A: I can't associate the expr e s sion 13 unrestricted sales. You're ref erring to 14 the chart? 1 5 Q: Yes. 1 6 A: Oh. I n that context I have a 17 dif f erent understanding of those two words . 18 Q : What ' s your understanding? 19 A: The unrestricted sales chart is 2 0 the chart that would have probably been 2 1 prepared had Monsanto not withdrawn from 2 2 any markets for all the uses of PCBs. The 2 3 restricted sale chart reflects those 2 4 amounts that resulted from the self-imposed 2 5 restricted sales program. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019809 _____________________________________________________________ 4 0 8 1 Q: Okay. Are you familiar with the 2 term the east coast termina1 incident? 3 A: Yes, sir. 4 Q? What does that mean to you? 5 A: This involves an incident in which 6 a heat transfer system, the one I mentioned 7 earlier, where the PCB-containing heat 8 transfer fluid leaked in the equipment -- 9 (Recess) . 10 MR . TALLOM : Why don't you read 1 1 back the question and the answer so far. 1 2 (The requested portion of the 1 3 record read by the reporter). 14 A: And contaminated fish meal, which 1 5 was being dried in this system. The fish 1 6 meal, in turn, was incorporated in pou1try 1 7 feed used by severa 1 poultry companies. 18 The chickens exhibited illnesses of various 1 9 kinds . There were problems with 2 0 hatchability of eggs. That's, in essence , 2 1 really, what happened. 11 created a 2 2 serious problem amongst some of the flocks 2 3 that were exposed to this feed. 2 4 Q: Do you know approximately when 2 5 that contamination occurred? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019810 4 09 1 A: Yes . July '71. 2 Q: And did that incident have an 3 affect on the thinking of the business 4 group with respect to continued sales of 5 PCB-based product s ? 6 A: 11 had an affect on the sale of 7 PCB-based products in heat transfer 8 systems. 9 Q: And the affect was what? 1 0 A: 11 was decided that since 1 1 alternative materials , a 1 though not 1 2 fire-resistant, had been successfully used 1 3 in replacing PCB products in food related 1 4 applications, that same techno 1ogy could be 1 5 used for other heat transfer applications , 1 6 therefore, Monsanto could withdraw the sale 1 7 of PCBs to heat transfer systems generally. 1 8 Q: Let me show you a document 1 9 entit led "Status Report, Polychlorinated 2 0 Biphenyls" , dated November 12 , 1971. 2 1 (Deposition Exhibit Number 2 2 112 8 mark'd for identification) . 2 3 A: I have scanned the exhibit. 2 4 Q: I s this a - - are these materials 2 5 prepared by Mr. Mason and others? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019811 4 10 1 A: I don't know. 2 Q : Have you seen this before? 3 A : Yes, I have . 4 Q: Was a copy of this document in 5 your files, so far as you know? 6 A: I have seen it so often, I can't 7 place the exact time when I first saw it. 8 I just cannot say for sure that it was in 9 my files. But I'm aware of this document, 1 0 I'm very fami1iar with it. 1 1 Q: Do you think you saw it at or 1 2 about the time it is dated? 1 3 A: I think so, yes. 1 4 0i Do you know whether in November of 1 5 19 7 1 Congressman Ryan was proposing a total 1 6 ban o n PCBs? 1 7 A : That ' s about the -- yes, late 1 8 '71. Yes. 1 9 Q: Do you know if a toxic substances 2 0 control act was being considered at about 2 1 the time that this particular document is 2 2 dated? 2 3 A: Yes. 2 4 Q: And do you know if PCBs were used 2 5 as an examp 1e in justifying that act? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019812 4 11 1 A: Well, the need for a toxic 2 substance control act was perceived 3 strongly by representatives in the 4 Environmental Protection Agency . These 5 individua 1s with whom I communicated had 6 indicated that the PCBs was -- would s erve 7 a s a good example of the kind of industrial 8 chemical that must be regulated. I n late 9 19 7 1 I personally don't recall at the 1 0 moment any particular activity on the part 1 1 of Congr es s , but there was a desire on the 1 2 part of many in EPA and in staffs in 1 3 Congress to develop such a n act in 1971. 1 4 Q: Were you ever part of any 1 5 discussion in 19 7 0 or in 19 7 1 as to what 1 6 the effect on Texas Eastern Transmission 1 7 Corporation would be if Monsanto withdrew 1 8 Turbinol 153 from the market? 1 9 A : No . 2 0 Q : Did you ever communicate with 2 1 others at Monsanto concerning whether 2 2 withdrawal of the Turbinol 153 product 2 3 could result in cessation of operations of 2 4 Texas Eastern? 2 5 A : I was never invo1ved in such a Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019813 4 12 1 discussion. 2 Q : Let me show you a document that' s 3 numbered sequentially Tran 002485 through 4 2 4 9 1 , and which we will have marked . 5 (Deposition Exhibit Number 6 112 9 mark'd for identification) . 7 A: I have reviewed the exhibit. 8 Q : Have you seen that exhibit before? 9 A? Yes, I have. 1 0 0i And do you reco1lect when you 1 1 first saw it? 1 2 A: Late 19 7 1, a s best I can recall . 1 3 Q: Do you think it may have been 1 4 November 1971? 1 5 A: That's close, yes. 1 6 Q: Do you have know ledge a s to the 17 circumstances for which this particular 1 8 exhibit was prepared? 1 9 A: I have an understanding that it 2 0 was prepared at Mr . Bergen ' s r eque s t to his 2 1 marketing teams. 2 2 Q : For what purpose? 2 3 A: As I understood it, it was really 2 4 to bring him up-to-date on where things 2 5 stood and where we were headed and how it Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019814 4 13 1 might impact the business . 2 Q: There is a note on the last page 3 under the caption "examples" referring to 4 Texas Eastern Gas Transmission Company, do 5 you see that? 6 A 1 I see that, yes. 7 Q * Had you read that? 8 A : Yes, I had. 9 Q : Do you remember reading it at the 1 0 time? 1 1 A Yes. 1 2 Q Does this refresh your 1 3 lection as to any internal discussions 1 4 in which you participated regarding the 1 5 effects on Texas Eastern on withdrawing 1 6 Turbinol 153? 1 7 A i I was aware of this, but I was not 1 8 awa re of any discuss ions , and I, to this 19 date, don't know what was meant by 2 0 disastrous. 2 1 Q: You're referring to the notation 2 2 "Immediate withdrawa1 of product would be 2 3 disastrous"? 2 4 A: Yes. 2 5 Q * Did you ever hear it said that if Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019815 4 14 1 Monsanto withdrew Turbinol 153 Texas 2 Eastern might have to shut down its 3 pipelines supplying gas to the northeast? 4 A: No, I hadn't heard that. 5 Q: Did you have any knowledge a s to 6 who dra f ted this particular portion of the 7 document? 8 A: No, I don't. 9 Q: Did you know whether or not Texas 1 0 Eastern supplied all or a portion of east 1 1 coast natura 1 gas needs? 1 2 A: East coast? Yes, I was aware of 1 3 that. 1 4 Q: Was it your understanding that at 1 5 the end of 1971 Monsanto was requiring 1 6 documentation from transformer and 17 capacitor customers which had the effect of 18 holding Monsanto harmless from legal 1 9 liability associat ed with the use of PCBs? 2 0 A : I was eventua1ly made aware of 2 1 that program. 2 2 Q: Was there such a program? 2 3 A: Yes. . 2 4 Q: Did Monsanto obtain such letters 2 5 from trans f ormer and capacitor customers? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019816 4 15 1 A: They did. 2 Q: Do you know whether a t any time in 3 19 7 1 or thereafter Monsanto accepted the 4 return of used or surplus PCBs from 5 trans former and capacitor cus tomer s ? 6 A: Well, we certainly had used PCB 7 liquids returned for incineration a s part 8 of a n available disposal service . I'm 9 aware of that. I s that what you meant by -- 1 0 Q: Was there a charge for that 1 1 service? 12 A: Yes. 13 Q: By the pound ? 14 A: Yes. 15 Q: And where was the incineration 1 6 conducted? 1 7 A: 11 was conducted a t the Krummrich 18 pi ant in Saujet, Illinois. 19 (Discussion off the record) . 2 0 MR . f ALLOM: Let me show you a 2 1 document that's been previously marked a s 2 2 Exhibit Number 174 in this case, and ask 2 3 you to take a moment and review it. 2 4 A: I have reviewed it. 2 5 Q: Have you seen that document Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019817 4 16 1 before? 2 A: I don't recall it at all. 3 Q: Have you ever kept in your files 4 information with respect to customer 5 applications of, or uses of PCB-based 6 products? 7 A: Could you repeat that? Do I have 8 in my file -- 9 Qi Not currently. But keep in your 1 0 files in the early '7 0's information with 1 1 respect to the uses by customers of 1 2 Monsanto PCB products? 1 3 A : There was no deliberate attempt on 1 4 my part to accumulate such data, but I did 1 5 have in my file Monsanto product bulletins 1 6 that would describe uses of the var i ous PCB 1 7 type products . That is about the extent of 18 my file information on that subject. 1 9 Q : Did you ever solicit any kind of 2 0 written explanation or information from Mr. 2 1 J oh n s o n about the uses of Turbinol 153 by 2 2 Texas Eastern? 2 3 A: No. 2 4 Q : Did you ever solicit such 2 5 information from Roger Hatton? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019818 4 17 1 A: No. 2 Q: Do you know if Mr. Mason ever did 3 so? 4 As I do not know. 5 Q: Do you know if Mr . Mason ever 6 conferred with Mr . Johnson or Mr . Hatton 7 about the use to which Texas Ea stern was 8 putting Turbinol 153? 9 A: I don't know that. 1 0 Q: Did you maintain any files in your 1 1 office related to Texas Eastern? 1 2 A: No. 1 3 0s Is the information reflected in 1 4 this document information that you have any 1 5 awareness of? 1 6 MR . PREUSS s You mean at present or 1 7 did at the time? 1 8 MR. TALLON s Either. 1 9 A s Well, through that whole period of 2 0 time, eventua1 ly, I was aware of most of 2 1 what is here. I certainly knew about 0 S - 8 1 2 2 and I knew about the use of turbines , I 2 3 knew about Transwestern. I had seen 2 4 numbers, but I didn't remember them until I 2 5 see them again , like the 3 2 5 , 000 pounds Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019819 4 18 1 mentioned here, and so on. I had an 2 impression that any change in that product 3 would require considerable technical 4 effort, just like it did on all these other 5 applications, in terms of finding a 6 suitable rep 1acement, testing it, making it 7 in enough quant ities and introducing it 8 into the system. I was aware of that 9 general kind of file. And most of that -- 1 0 it really applies to almost any change, it 1 1 isn't unique to this particular 1 2 application . But I -- a s I said earlier, 1 3 I had never seen this summary . 1 4 Q : What about the information 1 5 reflected in that paragraph that appears on 1 6 the bottom of the first page of that 1 7 exhibit, and particularly the reference to 18 knockout traps , have you ever heard that 1 9 expre s sion before? 2 0 A: I've heard of knockout traps. 2 1 Q: You've heard of knockout traps in 2 2 connection with the use of Turbinol 153? 2 3 A: Yes. 2 4 Q: What do you recall having heard in 2 5 that regard? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019820 4 19 1 A : Nothing highly technical , other 2 than that any Turbinol that is -- enters 3 the gas stream along with other condensates 4 that form in gas are collected and removed 5 from the pipeline system at intervals along 6 the transmission line, and the Turbinol 7 would be -- if any present, wouId be in 8 that liquid condensate. 9 Q: Does that suggest to you a 1 0 possibility that the Turbinol could enter 1 1 the gas stream in order for it to be 1 2 knocked out in the knockout trap? 1 3 A: 11 would have to enter the gas 1 4 stream to be there, yes. How often it 1 5 enters and under what conditions , I have no 16 way of knowing personally. 1 7 Q: Did you know whether the business 18 people who dealt with Texas Eastern had 1 9 that information? 2 0 A: Yes. That' s where I got most of 2 1 that inf ormation. 2 2 Q : Did you ever discuss with the 2 3 business people the actua1 operation of a 2 4 gas compressor? 2 5 MR. PSEDSS: You mean how it Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019821 420 1 operates? 2 HR. TALLON: Yes. 3 A: No. I didn't picture them a s 4 experts in that. 5 Q: Did you ever hear the term 6 labyrinth seal? 7 A: I've heard it, but I forgot in 8 what context. I believe I first heard of 9 it when I was with Phillips Petroleum 1 0 Company. 1 1 Q : With Phillips? 1 2 A: Yes. 1 3 Q: I n what context ? I recognize that 1 4 dates back some years . 1 5 A: Yes, it does . I was not 1 6 per sona1ly invo1ved, but I remember the 1 7 term because there were gas streams 18 collected in the oil fields, that's about 1 9 the extent of it. They had compressors and 2 0 they were sending it down systems to some 2 1 central point . That's all I know about it. 2 2 Q: Did there come a time when, to 2 3 your knowledge, Monsanto determined that it 2 4 would terminate sales of Turbinol 153 to 2 5 Texas Eastern? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019822 ________________________ ______ ______________________________ 4 2 1 1 A: Eventually, yes. 2 Q : Were you a part i c ipant in the 3 decision-making process that such sales 4 would be terminated? 5 As No. I was told of the decision. 6 Q : By whom? 7 As Mr. Bergen. 8 Q: And what, if anything, do you 9 recall Mr . Bergen saying to you in the 1 0 context of the termination of sales of 1 1 Turbinol 153 to Texas Eastern? 1 2 A: A s best I recall , it resembled 1 3 quite a bit the approach taken with the 1 4 continued use in the dielectric 1 5 applications, where the user, the customer, 1 6 in this case Texas Eastern, was asked to 1 7 assume responsibility for the material 18 legally for continued supplies . That's the 1 9 gist of the information that I remember . 2 0 Q: Mr. Bergen indicated to you that 2 1 Texas Eastern would be asked to provide 2 2 documentation to Monsanto holding Monsanto 2 3 harmless from legal 1iabi1ity? 2 4 A: Yes. 2 5 Q: Did Mr . Bergen indicate to you Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019823 422 1 that it was -- that Monsanto's sales to 2 Texas Eastern of Turbinol were conditional 3 upon Texas Eastern furnishing such 4 documentation to Monsanto? 5 A: Yes, sir. 6 Q: And do you know whether or not 7 Texas Eastern furnished that documentation? 8 A: Do I know that today? 9 Q: Well, did you know it then? 1 0 At No. At that time it was still in 1 1 discussion. And the discussion was tied 1 2 into the similar information relayed to the 1 3 electrical applications. 1 4 Q : What similar information was that? 1 5 A: The initial -- the discussion 1 6 initially started on the procedure Monsanto 1 7 was going to install in continued sales to 1 8 the dielectric uses, and during that 1 9 discussion Mr. Bergen says "Incidentally, 2 0 we're going to do the same sort of thing 2 1 with Turbinol" , and that' s how we got into 2 2 that brief discussion . And both of these 2 3 situations were in a state of flux where 2 4 the -- some customers hadn't been informed 2 5 yet, some were being inf ormed, some were Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019824 423 1 considering what they had been proposed , 2 some had signed off. So it was the period 3 December '71, January '72, February '72, in 4 that period , when all this was taking 5 place. 6 Q: Do you know whether any other 7 customers aside from dielectric customers 8 were given the same sort of proposal at the 9 end of 19 7 1 or the beginning of 19 7 2 ? 1 0 MR . PREUSS : Other than Texas 1 1 Eastern? 1 2 MR. TALLONI Yes. 1 3 As That' s all I know. Just those two 1 4 types. 1 5 Q: Dielectric and Texas Eastern? 1 6 A : Correct. 17 Q : Were you i nvi t ed to attend any 1 8 meeting with Texas Eastern regarding the 1 9 termination of sales of Turbinol? 2 0 As No. 2 1 Q: Did you ever see call reports 2 2 relating to any meetings held with Texas 2 3 Eastern? 2 4 A: No. 2 5 Q : Were you ever inf ormed a s to the Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019825 _____________________________________________________________ 4 2 4 1 reaction of Texas Eastern with respect to 2 Monsanto' s proposal that Texas Eastern 3 furnish a hold harmless letter? 4 A: Not until many years later was I 5 aware of that reaction. I was not tuned 6 in, no. 7 Q: When you refer to many years 8 later , what are you referring to? 9 A : Here recently. 1 0 Q I NOW? 1 1 A: Well, now, for example, yes. 1 2 Q: But before now, that is to say, 1 3 b e f ore this deposition, did you bee ome 14 aware of Texas Eastern's reaction to 1 5 Monsanto's propo sal? 1 6 A : No . 1 7 Q: When did you leave Monsanto, 19 86? 18 A: The end of '86. 1 9 Q s While you were at Monsanto , did it 2 0 ever come to your attention that PCB 2 1 materials had been discovered in gas meters 2 2 in Long Island, New York? 2 3 A: No. 2 4 Q : Did it ever come to your a tt ent ion 2 5 that federa 1 regulators were requesting Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019826 425 1 testing of natura 1 gas pipelines for the 2 presence of PCBs? 3 A: No. 4 Q: What was your job responsibility 5 between 1980 and 1984? 6 A : I was director of environmental 7 operations for two operating units in 8 Monsanto in that period of time. 9 Q: Did you have responsibility, then, 1 0 for PCB issues? 1 1 A: I had the individual who had the 1 2 firsthand responsibility reporting to me at 1 3 that time, yes. 1 4 Q: And who was that? 1 5 A : Dr. John Craddock. 16 Q : Dr. Craddock is still with 1 7 Monsanto today? 18 A: Yes. 1 9 Q: Wasit part of Dr. Craddock ' s 2 0 re sponsibilities to keep abreast of 2 1 deve1opments in the world relating to PCBs? 2 2 A : Yes. 2 3 Q: Other than the communication with 2 4 Mr. Bergen that you have described, did you 2 5 have communications with anyone else at Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019827 ________________ ___________________ ________________________ 4 2 6 1 Monsanto concerning the termination of 2 sales of Turbinol 153 to Texas Eastern or 3 to any other customer? 4 A: No. 5 Q: By the way, there is just a bit of 6 handwriting at the top of Exhibit 174 which 7 says "Gas turbine fluids-Turbinol" . Do you 8 recognize that handwriting? 9 A: I do not. 1 0 Q : Okay. Did you want to correct 1 1 something in your testimony, Mr. 1 2 Papageorge? 1 3 A: Yes. Counsel reminds me that I 1 4 said Transwestern. 1 5 Q : And you meant Texas Eastern? 1 6 A : I meant Texas Eastern. 1 7 MR . PREU88: In the context of 18 Exhibit 174, when he was - 1 9 MR . TALL ON : Right . Are you 2 0 familiar with the term topping off? 2 1 A: Certainly . 2 2 Q : To your knowledge , did Mons anto 2 3 ever advis e customers with respect to the 2 4 compatibility of PCB fluids and non-PCB 2 5 fluids with respect to topping off? Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019828 _____________ ________________________________________________4 2 7 1 A: I n some instances, yes. 2 Q: And just so that we're clear, when 3 you use the term topping off, to what do 4 you refer? 5 A: I'm ref erring to adding a liquid 6 to a system which contains a liquid 7 already, whether it be the same type or 8 different, and the level in that system has 9 dropped to a point where it might affect 1 0 the system's performance, such as adding a 1 1 quart of oil to your car engine when you 1 2 check and note that it's low. 1 3 Q : Did Monsanto advise customers in 1 4 19 7 0 or 19 7 1 as to the compatability of 1 5 PCB-based functional fluids and 1 6 non-PCB-based functional fluids for 1 7 purposes of topping off? 1 8 A : In some situations , yes. 1 9 Qs Which situations do you recall? 2 0 A: I recall the systems that contain 2 1 Pydrau1 formulations, when the Pydrauls 2 2 were reformulated, one of the obj ectives of 2 3 the program was to get a reformulation that 2 4 was compatible with the pr evi ous , so that 2 5 they could be used a s topping off materials Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019829 428 1 without creating gumming and thickening and 2 all kinds of other problems . 3 Q: Was the decision as to whether or 4 not to top off left up to the customer? 5 A i Cer t a inly. 6 Q: Monsanto would advise as to the 7 compatability? 8 A: Yes. 9 Q: But the design was to make it 1 0 compatib1e ? 1 1 A: Yes. 1 2 Q: The replacement fluid, that is? 1 3 A: Yes. 1 4 Q: After August 3 0 , 19 7 0 , what PCB 1 5 products did Monsanto continue to sell? 1 6 A: After August 3 0 Monsanto still 1 7 sold the PCB type product for the NCR paper 18 application while it was undergoing change 1 9 in the laboratory . 11 continued to sell 2 0 the heat transfer fluids to non-food uses. 2 1 11 continued to sell PCB type products to 2 2 the electrical industry, the transformer 2 3 and capacitor manufacturers . And it 2 4 conti nued to sell some of the hydr au lie 2 5 fluids that contained PCB that had yet to Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019830 429 1 be altered. And it continued to sell 2 Turbinol. 3 Q : And Monsanto eventua1ly cut off 4 sales to hydraulic applications? 5 A : Eventua1ly, yes. 6 Q: Let me show you a document that is 7 a memorandum dated January 2 6 , 19 7 0 from 8 Howard Bergen to J.R. Durland in Tokyo. 9 (Exhibit Number 1 0 113 0 mark'd for identification) . 1 1 A: I have read the exhibit . 1 2 Qi Did you receive a copy of that 1 3 memorandum? 1 4 A: I did. 1 5 Q: Did you get it in January 19 7 0? 1 6 A: On or about that time, yes. 1 7 Q : Is your understanding of the 1 8 business strategy of the functional fluids 1 9 group consistent with the statement of the 2 0 business strategy which appears on the 2 1 bottom of the first page of the memorandum? 2 2 MR. PREUSS: As of January 19 7 0? 2 3 MR. TALLON: Yes, correct. 2 4 A: Yes, that is my understanding. 2 5 Qi Did you know Lou Shoe f f wh i 1 e you Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019831 430 1 were at Monsanto? 2 A: I did. 3 Q: Do you know what position he had 4 in the early '70's? 5 A: Mr . Shoef f was a research chemist 6 involved with many studies , some of them 7 with the hydraulie fluids. 8 Q: Did Mr. Shoeff have responsibility 9 for product reformulations in any way, that 1 0 you know about ? 1 1 A: Yes. 1 2 Q : Let me show you a set of pages 13 bearing product ion numbers STR 002 157 1 4 through 2165, and we'll have these marked 15 and then give them to you to take a look 16 at . 1 7 (Deposition Exhibit Number 18 113 1 mark'd for identification) . 1 9 A: I have reviewed the exhibit . 2 0 Q : Have you seen that exh ibi t before , 2 1 Mr. Papageorge? 2 2 A: Yes, I have. 2 3 Q: Can you identify it? 2 4 A : It's a summary of someone ' s 2 5 opinion regarding the affects on our Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019832 __________________________________________ __________________ 4 3 1 1 customers of converting the Pydrau 1 2 f ormu lat ions to avoid the use of PCBs. 3 Q : Do you recogniz e that handwriting 4 that's on, among other pages, pages 2and 5 3? 6 A: That appears to me to be Mr. 7 Bergen's handwriting. 8 Q: Do you know whether this group of 9 pages constituted a presentation? 1 0 A: I do not. 1 1 Q: Do you know if this was something 1 2 created by Mr. Bergen? 1 3 A : I do not. 1 4 Q: Do you know if it's material 1 5 created by persons who worked for Mr. 1 6 Bergen? 17 A: I'd have to guess . I do not. 1 8 Q : Don't guess. 1 9 Q : Let me show you a document dated 2 0 October 6 , 1970 , which is a memorandum from 2 1 you to a group, bearing product ion number s 2 2 Tran 003105 through 3117, which we'll have 2 3 marked. 2 4 (Deposit ion Exhibit Number 2 5 113 2 mark'd for identification) . Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019833 432 1 A: I have scannedthe document. 2 Q : Is that exhibit your PCB 3 environmental problem S ept embe r status 4 report? 5 A : 11 is. 6 Q : There is a reference c omm e n cin g on 7 the first page to another corporate 8 management committee meeting on S eptember 9 14 , 19 7 0 , do you see that? 1 0 A: I do. 1 1 Q : 11 is suggested by this memorandum 1 2 that at the September 14th CMC meeting the 1 3 business group requested and was granted an 1 4 extension of three months , that is to say, 1 5 through the end of the first quarter of 1 6 19 7 1, to attempt to ach ieve the goal of 1 7 reformulating products still containing 1 8 A r o c1o r 1 2 4 2 . I s that correct? 1 9 MR . P R E U S S: It's on the first 2 0 page, you say? 2 1 MR . T ALLON: It's actually on the 2 2 bottom of the first and over to the top of 2 3 the second page. 2 4 A: These products are the industrial 2 5 hydraulic fluids. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019834 433 1 Q: Yes. 2 A: Yes. 3 Q: A first extension was requested? 4 As That is correct . 5 Q i And granted? 6 A : Correct. 7 Q: Did the corporate management 8 commi11ee emphasize that that would be the 9 last extension? 1 0 A : 11 did. 1 1 Q: Did the corporate management 1 2 commi11ee indicate that it would be 1 3 nece s s ary to discontinue the business if 1 4 the business group was not successful in 1 5 reformulating? 1 6 A : 11 did. 17 Q : On page 5 , Mr . Papageorge , under 1 8 the caption "Industrial hydraulics" . 1 9 A: I see it. 2 0 Q : There is a ref erence to the 2 1 removal of Aroclor 1242 from all Pydrauls, 2 2 and it references a series of products 2 3 starting with A - 2 0 0 and ending with MCS 24 974? 2 5 A: I see that. Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019835 434 1 Q : Is the MC S- 1 5 3 referred to there 2 also known as Turbinol 153? 3 A : Well, that's what it was 4 eventually designated as or labeled as. 5 Q: So MCS 15 3 is synonymous with 6 Turbinol 153? 7 As 11 is. But it doesn't fit in this 8 compilation of Pydrau1s. It's not a 9 Pydrau1 . 1 0 Qs Why is it here? 1 1 A: It's an error on somebody 's part. 1 2 Qs Did you call someone and indicate 1 3 to them that that reference to MC S - 15 3 1 4 should be omitted before this memo was sent 1 5 ou t ? 1 6 A s I don't recall what I did with 1 7 that. I do know that it doesn't belong 1 8 there , because at that point in time the 1 9 expression MCS-15 3 wasn't even used. I 2 0 just don't know how it got in there . 2 1 Qs I s t h a t your signature on page 13 2 2 of the memorandum? 2 3 A s Yes. 2 4 Qs And do you believe this to be an 2 5 actual copy of a memo as it was sent out to Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019836 435 1 the group of recipients noted on the first 2 page? 3 A : 11 appear s, maybe, to be. I'm 4 puzzled by a slash mark on the bottom of 5 the first page. But other than that, it 6 looks like a true copy. 7 Q: Do you have a present recollection 8 of any of the recipients of this memo 9 calling you and telling you to remove the 1 0 reference to MC S-15 3 which appears on page 1 1 5 under the caption "Industrial hydraulics" 12 following the use of the word Pydrauls? 1 3 A : No . 1 4 MR . TALLOM: Okay. Why don't we 1 5 stop there. 1 6 (Recess) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Gore Reporting Co., Inc. St. Louis, Mo. (314) 241-6750 (800) 878-6750 WATER PCB-SD0000019837 DEPOSITION CORRECTION SHEET In ResT^^o/^ Company tra, fhenocnh> Csmpan^, eta! Upon reading the deposition and before subscribing thereto, the deponent indicated the following changes should .be made: Page ^ ciS- Line & Should read: . ~Tf\ N K ru m me rich Reason assigned for change: "5 p-e / hncj ^ Cur Page 25~ Line h Should read: fCrum/nrich Reason assigned for change: p-et! my x> P ? Page Line Should read: 2>f7 /O (Dun oh? Reason assigned for change: 5f>e 11 my Page pip Line 23 Should read: (hneuJ about Reason assigned for change: -XmCOf r^cf Te$Ct5 L- - ,Page 53 Line /ff --Should read: -f-o -ihem pt >ura fa !c> a net - -- Reason assigned for change: I nco/rcci u) O^ci Page 5*47 Line ^ Should read: ,, x behei/o If-S 'hinCL-------- Reason assigned for change: TLy? C-> e KC-ef CUOlfct Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Page Line Should read: Reason assigned for change: Deponent WATER PCB-SD0000019838