Document p2En59M1njaXE5NZvbEO7kJz6

1 V2 3 4 .5 6 7 8 9 10 11. 12 `14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DOST DIRECT ~V(2->& f 21054 certain, but I b e l i e v e it was in the order of 19S3 or '82, r e l a t i v e l y recently, i* . Q. .' All right,, .sir. D o c t o r * .I\d like to move on to : another area, and'talk with.-you about target organ toxicity, if 1/m a y ' H a v e -you had* o ccasion to r e v i e w t h e - scientific literature on the effects of TCDD on the various organs and s y s t e m s `-o the body? A. I ' m afra i d so. Q. Do you have an opinion as to w h e t h e r TCDD can adversely affect the following systems or organs, and I'm going to. name the:Be;.things for you* doctor, and What I -want to k n o w y here* is if you have an opinion.' The skin? A.' Yes . / y, Q. The immune system? A. V e s . Q. The liver? A . Yes . Q. P o r p h y r i n synthesis? A . It c a n , y e s Q. C a r d i o v a s c u l a r system? A. At p e r h a p s very high doses. Q. Wh.a t I want to know is if you have an opinion, doctor. 1 don't want your opinion at this point. DOST D1REC 21055 1 A, I see# y e s , I have an opinion. 2 Q. . G a s t r o i n t e s t i n a l system7 3 A. Yes, './ .. : 4 Q. - N e u r o l o g i c a l systen? -v 5 A., . I have an opinion, yes. . 6 U- - R e p r o d u c t i v e s y s t e m ? .1 ' - -....~v 7 A . -Yes. .; *t 8 Q. And finally, the endocrine system? 9 A. Y e s . 10 Q. All right, sir. Do you have an o p i n i o n as to 11 whether T CDD can c a use m u t a g e n i c eff e c t s ? 12 A. ..I do have an opinion;, yes. -v: 13 Q. Do you have an o p i n i o n as to whether TCD D can 14 cause c a r c i n o g e n i c effects? 15 A . Y e s . 16 Q. All right, sir. Now -- 17 THE COURT: Do I u n d e r s t a n d it that the 18 witness has been r e f e r r i n g to an o p i n i o n whic h he 19 holds on all these m a t t e r s with respect to huma n s ? 20 Is that the q u e s t i o n ? 21 MR. LOVE: Based upon the literature. 22 THE COURT: Is that true, sir? Y o u were 23 referring to humans? 24 THE WITNESS: I was really thinking both 25 in terms of a nimals and humans. DOST DI RliCT 21056 1 THE COURT; Bat at any rate, both* 2 THE WITNESS; At any rate, both, yes, sir. 3 THE COURT t Thanh you. . 4 BY MR. LOVE; - 5 Q. All right, doctor, let's talk about the shin 6 first. .What I intend to. do now is go t hrough each ... 7 one of these with you. 8 What is your opinion as to whether TCDD 9 can adversely affect the shin? 10 A. It can a f f e c t the shin. 11 Q. All right. Now, what is the bas i s for your 12 opinion? 13 A . The basis is p r i m a r i l y evidence that has been 14 d e v e l o p e d in o b s e r v a t i o n s of humans who have 15 p r e s u m a b l y b een e x p o s e d to TCDD at various levels in 16 the d e v e l o p m e n t of chloracne. A lso r e s e a r c h that 17 has been done with e x p e r i m e n t a l animals b o t h a t t e m p t i n 18 to find an a p p r o p r i a t e model, an e x p e r i m e n t a l model 19 f o r 'c h l o r a c n e , but also testing of some models and 2 0 using some models to evaluate the a c n e g e n i c 21 p o t e n t i a l of TCDD. 22 Q. All right, doctor, b a s e d upon your k n o w l e d g e as 23 a t o x i c o l o g i s t and your Knowl e d g e of the literature, 24 do you have an o p i n i o n as to when we knew or when it 2 5 was known that TCDD was capable of inducing DOST DIRECT 21077 1 chemleals. 2 The problem that they had was that they i* 3 didn't recog n i s e the right area of the ear to use 4 and the model fell into considerable disfavor and 5 m e anwhile there were attempts to use rats and other 6 typical e x p e r i m e n t a l species* A m o n k e y is. subject 7 to a c o n d i t i o n rather like chloracne but it isn't 8 e n t i r e l y identical; and/.the nude mouse -- there is a 9 s t rain of mice that has a genetic defect in which it 10 does not have hair -- and the characteristic of the 11 skin of the nude mouse a pparently allows it to 12 r e spond in a fashion somewhat similar but not the 13 same as the human skin to chloracne* The rabbi t is 14 the best. The others are' really .not o v e r l y 15 s a tisfactory. 'They're useful for some things' but 16 are not excellent. 17 Q. As a t o x i c ologist, what is the signif i c a n c e , if 18 any, of these d i f f e r e n t results in the an-imal 19 studies? 20 A. Well, c e r t a i n l y it would indicate that the 21 h u m a n skin is somewhat unique. A t o x i c o l o g i s t is a t 2 2 little disappointed when there isn't a proper model, 23 of course, and I think that that's the part that 24 concerns me most. 25 Q. All right, sir. Dr. Dost, I want to turn now 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DOST DIRECT to the isnune system# if we may. 21078 Can you tell the jury# just briefly# generally# what the Immune system involves? A Well# the immune system is c o l l e c t i v e l y all of the m e chanisms that are employed by an o r g a n i s m to fight off infection# to control any. f o r e i g n p r o t e i n that may come into the organism. That sometimes creates more p r o b l e m s than it solves. If a n y o n e has ever had a very severe reaction to a bee sting# the r e a c t i o n itself p r o b a b l y is going to cause far more d a m a g e than the bee sting# if you h a p p e n to be particularly sensitive to bee venom# because of that immune response to the bee.venom. The other important component that the immune system protects against are cells of one's * own body that have become deranged# either because t h e y ' v e b e e n infected by the virus or because they have become, they have reached the initial stages of d e v e l o p m e n t of tumors. Tumor cells early on caus.e an immune response. Q. All right, sir. Doctor, what is your o p i n i o n as to whether dioxin can adversely affect the immune system7 A. It appears that it can. Q. All r i g h t , sir. Would you explain that to us **^ t ^ ,*'..- "*-"**''' _:-v\^-iv-vl. DOST . C R O S S ~PK Z<oa"L. J . v;I'--* --* / .. v >** \ *~*-%*-*1**-*^ '_i,. * V-* -V*. ;:Vv^ ' 21205; v v O#^Tfegv;0 -. ; VAr -'Vy'A ^.vr*-.r***r* *-*v* * 3 1 1 r< >: *-rv;jr^ijv<n^r ** Q . ..._ ^ ,.. .... .... . .^ r [7 i s n *Jt1:11? - Ay-v- ;r /.-{ i . [8 A.'"- It* a a p e r s o n a l j u d g m e n t :t h a t 's t e m p e r e d b y a [9 g r e a t deal of experience and a great deal of . 0 conversation with other scientists, yes. 1 q * '- And t h r o u g h o u t the c o u r s e of this tine period 2 fr o m ^ l 970 until the p r e s a n r r y o u ' 1;ve be cone-more-. 3 and more and more involved yin ;the di o x i n issue, in ,4 a d d i t io n to doing your go ve rnmental resea rc h and 5 work for EPA and the state governments put west, you 6 also have agreed to testify for chemical companies 7 in the A g e n t Orange li t i g a t i o n ; isn't that true? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. And you came down on the side of i n d u s t r y in 0 that particular case, didn't you? 1 A. I c ame down on the side of the a v a i l a b l e t 2 in format ion 5 3 Q. Well, Doctor, you were h i red and paid by 4 i n d u s t r y in that case to testify against the 5 veterans, isn't that true? DOST CROSS 21206 MR. LOVEt Your Honor, 1 object. _ A. I t h i n k not. . :. .v* ;; .. .V.;. ' -^ .*-vr* ... r; \ T H E COURT J u 8 t ^ (aonent. . O jivrr- :r;y.;/vv.`-' M R L O V E i , I .ob j act. t o ...the 'm a n n e r .i n . . . .* ...I ',.v";*'"" .-.` w h i c h :c o u n s e l was a s k iVnngg t hhaatt--qquueestsitoinoin .- HHee .can. cbb*me|e^^v- 6 to the b e n c h to discus 8 i t iftyoil like ; //V^. 7 . T H E COURT If there's more to it t ha n > 8 what I h e a r in the q u e s t i o n that .was asked and t h e . ; 9 o b j e c t i o n that was made, then I 111 have you come to . 0 the bench. Doesn't seem to me that it's a very . 1 c o m plex matter. . Is there something that you haven't, 2 related that, y o u feel we :ought-t-o-rdiscuss at the--- 3 bench? ..-C-rv* ......... .* A MR. LOVE It's along the. lines that. 1 5 had .mentioned, Your Honor. That's all. 6 THE COURT At this moment? 7 MR. LOVE That's correct. 8 THE COURT If that be the c a s e , the 9 wi tnes s may answer that question. 0 A. W o u l d y o u repeat the question? 1 Q. . You d e c i d e d to t e s t i f y on beh a l f of industry in 2 that case against the p l a i n t i f f s in that case who 3 were, in fact, vet e r a n s of the Vietnam war? 4 THE C O U R T : The question is whether or 5 not he had been hired to do so. DOST - CROSS MR- CALWELLi . Yes,- 21207 THE COURTs-. That is. the question. Doctor*. Were "you h i r e d ,to. do ..so? ->--v>v*77-' " \* .THE W I T N E S S s I w a s;retained b y counsel - for the i n d u s t r y ,7 y e b -f- Q. /.^And a s i d e ' f r o m t e s t i f y i n g in that case b y w a y *7 of d e p o s ition, you also testified in Australia, did you not? - 7 A* T h a t 's correct* Q* B e f o r e a Royal C o m m i s s i o n that was i nvestigating what effects, if any. Agent Orange had had on A u s t r a l i a n v e terans j i s n J-t-- that- right? -- . . . - - ...... . A. That's correct. --;7: Q* .And y o u -tooh the s ane p o s i t i o n there that you took in the Agent Orange case; isn't that true?. A* I h a v e no control over the p o s i t i o n that I take* I can only go by the evidence* Q* But y o u selected the evidence, did you not, t hat-you decided to assign weight to? That's true, isn't it? A. No, sir- No one has been able to c h a l l e n g e my selection of the evidence. Q. But, Doctor, the fact is you did select the evidence that you chose to rely on; isn't that right? A. The e v idence that I s e l ected was e v e r y bit of DOST - CROSS 21208 evidence that I could find. q . . . But y o u d o n 't .rely on .all t h e .e v i d e n c e * do you? You h av e n' t in this courtroom*/ A* `. . I.^have t o / r e l y .oh .every.^bit of e v i d e n c e that^.I -'- : S r * : \ > "-V-?>v : ^' S ' can find in d e v e l o p i n g ay opinion* If I were to- rely* in this courtroom,/onV.-eyery bit of evidence* I' 7 would have had to cone here by train instead of by | 8 p l a n e b e c a u s e I c o u l d n ' t bring it wit h me. 9 Q. Doctor, what I'm saying to you is that in to s e l e c t i n g the evi d e n c e that.forms the . b a s i s for your E i opinions* you select certain studies and certain 6 2 sc ientists as h a v i n g aore- c r e d i b i l i t y than-othe r -- - v r 3 scientists or studies; isn't that true? EL4 A. I r e a l l y d o n ' t think s o . ;\ I p r e s e n t what r. find* r 5 I may speak to the credibility when present it but- * [16 I h a v e an o b l i g a t i o n to use all of the e v i d e n c e and r 7 proceed as far as the evidence permits me to proceed. 1 8 Q. And y o u s i m p l y h a v e n ' t b een c o n v i n c e d yet* |i 9 p e r s o n a l l y , as a scientist, you h a v e n ' t been 2 0 convinced yet of certain things about dioxin and its 21 toxicity; isn't that true? 2 2 A. I w o u l d p r e s u m e that's true. i 1 2 3 Q. You have found that it is a most toxic 24 substance, haven't you? 25 A Yes. DOST - CROSS 21209 q . And you h a v e found that it is p r o b a b l y the most toxic synthetic substance; isn't that right? A. T h a t ' s p r o b a b l y true, yes.: q . Of all the things that nan through the wonders V of science have cone up with this nay be the nost toxic thing you've ever encountered; isn't that right? . , A- It could v e r y well be* Q* And you h a v e found that it affects the skin; r [o isn't that true? * [l A* Y e s 1 12 Q* And y o u h.a v e -concluded..t**h'atr'it'affectts t h e -----f3 immune system; isn't that true?.. 4 A* Correct* ;5 Q* And y o u h a v e found that it a f f e c t s the liver 6 that's true, isn't it? 7 A* Y e s 8 Q. That it has s o m e c a r d i o v a s c u l a r e ffect; t h a t ' s 9 true; isn't it? 0 A. Yes . 1 Q. That it a f fects the g a s t r o i n t e s t i n a l system, 2 that's true, isn't it? 3 A . Yes . 4 Q. And it affe c t s the nervous system, you found 5 that to be true, haven't you? DOST -- CROSS 21210 A. Yes. ., .^ q . /.And it a ffects the r e p r o d u c t i v e s y s t e m and the e ndocrine; y o u .found that to be true, h a v e n ' t you? A*...-v-*Ye-s';* - *`A*.*', *V*",,,w'.,/*..-A'. , Q. And y o u found that to be m u t a g e n i c , you-'f ound that to be true? ^v > A. '.To a l imited extent. V.; '' ' Q. And you also found it to be carcinogenic, haven 1t you? A. That's correct. Q. But y o u just, as a scientist, are not yet convinced as to how far this -goesT are you? -- -- 3 A * Well, we've talked.about the toxicity. 4 Q* Well, I want you to answer my q u e s t i o n first. A. How far it goes, wha t do y o u mean b y . t h a t ? 6 7 B 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 DOST -- CROSS 21211 q . Well, you're just not convinced about certain t h i n g s Y o u 1re not c o n v i n c e d about how c a r c i n o g e n i c it i s , are you? : A. The e v i d e n c e is r e a s o n a b l y clear h o w c a r c i n o g e n i c it is, what dosage is r e q u i r e d to produce carcinogenicity. Q. Y o u ' r e not c o n v i n c e d as to how c a r c i n o g e n i c it is in humans, are you? A * No .. Q, And y o u 1re not c o n v i n c e d e x a c t l y as to h o w it may poison a human, are you? A. Its m echanism, I p r e s u m e - y o u 1re s p e a k i n g -of? Q. Yes. r A. N o , .I d o n 1t know. 0. You're just not c o n v i n c e d about that yet, are you? A . No one else is. Q. Well, y o u ' v e read studies where p e o p l e h a v e h y p o t h e s i z e d about how it poisons humans, h a v e n ' t you? A. I've read studies where people h a v e h y p o t h e s i z e d how it a f f e c t s b i o l o g i c a l systems. Q. Y o u ' v e read those, h a v e n ' t you? A . Yes Q . And yo u just don't accept some of those, is DOST - CROSS 21212 that right? A* Host of the p e o p l e who are investigating these questions are unable to convince themselves* q . Doctor, Z wan t y o u .to*, answer ay question. Y o u .. have seen explanations of the .toxicity and the ~ m e c h a n i s m of d i o x i n t h a t .y o u s i m p l y just d o n ' t accept, isn't that true? A.. Yes. q . And you simply don't accept -- you haven't seen a study, yet, that convinces you that dioxin may, in fact, cause long-term irreversible effects on the peripheral nervous system, for-example, you just--- h a v e n ' t been c o n v i n c e d o f .that yet, isn't that true? A. That's true. Q. You know, and y o u are' convinced that it does have the ability to exert a toxic effect on the p e r i p h e r a l nervous s y s t e m in humans, isn't that true? A. Apparently. Q. But you're just not convinced as to h o w bad it is or as to how long it lasts, isn't that right? A. How bad it is, I p r e s u m e you mean by dos a g e it requires to do that. Q. How much injury it causes, you're just not that convinced about it -- A. At a given dose. DOST - CROSS 21213 q . -- ' are you? _.. . . . THE COURT* Just a moment What did you state# doctor# you said something . *\"*V.*', '' 1* *, t. i1 ,'* s.<\'** '* i , , ' *-p-*,, ! i ' , * dose?.- I ** .not- s u r ; - - r. about the .,* .* . r].; v given t - * l> V^ !:v : THE WITNESS* Ye.s^ sir, : I did. ; THE COURT* .; I '* notl;sure that was, heard. A. The d e s t r u c t i o n d e p e n d s :on the dosage. q . . But the fact remains you simply aren't c o n v i n c e d yet as a scientist as to how much injury may result# dependent on whatever dose was received# and as to whether or not it's going to be permanent or not# isn* t ~tha t right?- jfcc.TT. . . - ,-r---A. .That's correct. Q. Y o u ' r e ' c o n v i n c e d and the r e ' s no d o u b t in y o u r 1 mind that it causes some injury# that's true, isn't r it? A. Yes# t h a t ' s very true. Q. You' r e c o n v i n c e d and there's no doubt in your mind that dioxin does# in fact# cause a skin disease isn't that true? A. W i t h a p p r o p r i a t e exposure, yes. Q. And you're c o n v i n c e d and there's no doubt in your mind that dioxin does# in fact, adversely affect the immune system, that's true, isn't it7 A With a sufficient exposure# yes, sir DOST - CROSS 2X214 Q. Right It *8 .just that y o u -- y o u 're not w i l l < lust yt/' to .flay h o W >l o ng those t h 1ngs nay 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 20 21 22 23 24 1 25 y - I.. / . A l l .right VV':A n d y o u 're /not';^convinced as `y e t . a a V to h o w ser ious t h e s e 7'injuri"e1:jiiayr * h e , is : that true? ; ' - A 'v That.* s correct * v/.**' .* Q. Now, all of those or that a t t i t u d e that y o u have, your scientific a t t i t u d e toward dioxin, is t "' * something that you've arrived at simply from your readi`ng,, isn'"t that;r .i i g A. -T h a t ' s correct* - .. h... t- ? ^ ..=-- -.... Q. -This is not s o a e t h i n g *that y o u h a v e d e t e r m i n e d on your own in terms of sweating through an original p ie c e of research, is it? A . Not on dioxin* Q. It's just so m e t h i n g -- it's kind of e d i t o r i a l that you' ve -- it's an editorial position of the things you've read, isn't that right? A*. No, that is not correct* An e d i t o r i a l has an entirely different meaning than the development of a defensible scientific opinion* Q. And is that what y o u ' v e in fact done, doctor, you've tried to develop a defensible scientific DOST - CROSS 21215 opinion to come to Court with? Y e s , sir '; .V'rvv''V /-V' ** 1 Q. H o w long* D o c t o r , would you h a v e to hav e ; p e r i p h e r a l neuropathy, for it to be a condi tion. that... r '."' *,' I - . - . . - v S y o u w o u l d c o n s i d e r 'permanent?--- :;.'' ';*' A. J. l'a not e n t i r e l y .sure how l o n g I w o u l d h a v e - to r ely.on the advice of neu r o p h y s i c i a n s who specialize in n eu ro l o g y to sake that kind of a ju d g m e n t Q. . So r e a l l y , *y o u 1re not in a p o s i t i o n to tell the jury, really -- to really give then an opinion as to h o w long it takes, for a n y orthese c o n d i t i o n s - t h a t - you're convi nc ed dioxin causes, has to persist before it's permanent, are you? A * Ho 4* Q How, Doctor, I want to shift the focus here just for a minute and we'll come back to this a little later I want to.ask you about chlorine free radicals. There's a difference between a free chlorine and a chlorine-free radical, isn't there? A. Yes. Q. In fact, if this is 2, 3, 7, 8-TCDD, for that to be a chlorine-free radical, you'd have to get rid of all these chlorines, is that right? DOST - CROSS A* No, sir 21216 A re q W h a t w o u I d 'beVan"i x ampl ^ \*,7 '^ *-` *.,/''t''% t- f7 radical?., ; - 8 A. A free r a dical is an e n t i t y that exists b y 9 itself in a highly unstable state. A chlorine-free ,0 radical w o u l d be c h l o rine# itself# s e p a r a t e d fros 1 the rest of the olecule, v - 2 Q. That wo u 1d J.b e:.a chi or in e="fr e e~"radical?:^ -- --rrr 3 A. C h l o r i n e - f r e e does not; n e a n w e 1re tal k i n g . -* .^ > - ,* 4 about a free radical * "> *-**' * v 5 Q. Yes# s'ir. ^ 6 A. -- that is comprised of chlorine. 7 Q. Right.' Let's say one of these -- 8 A. Not talking about s u b s t a n c e that is free of 9 chlorine. 0 Q. L e t ' s say if this chlorine# here# came off# 21 that would be a free c h l o r i n e ? 22 A. It would p r o b a b l y be n e g a t i v e c h a r g e d and it 23 would p robably be lacking in e l e ctrons or carrying 2 4 an extra electron. 2 5 Q. But it would be a n e g a t i v e l y c h a r g e d free DOST - CROSS -21217 ch lorine ion, is that right? \. A. -No, ;,it w o u l d n V t .be an i o n . 0# . .Wh a t .would it be? .. Xv*.."***.-* * * ........... .. * *' ' * i- ''..V : .** A *~ ` . I 5:::.'l,ol?i d b e * ; ^ f a :r a d A c * 1 :.a; A i o n i :a . -- i B part .of;h -- - if we' had s o d i u m :chl o r i d e or h y d r o g e n chloricfe in that solution# it^vould ionire arid. it . would exist as a chloride ion on the one hand and the hydrogen ion on the other that could be combined# let's say# .if you put sodium in there# we would end up perhaps with sodium ions and chlorine ions. This -- a chlorine-free radical has a very powerful# or any free radical has a powerful capability for combining with almost any kind of a molecule, b e c a u s e 1it's car r y i n g a great deal ;o f e n e r g y and it can lit e r a l l y jam its way^ into a . reaction. Q. Now# and if one of these chl o r i n e free radicals# as you hav e d e fined it# and I want to.make sure I u n d e r s t a n d your d e f i n i t i o n of it# n o w y o u tell me if I'm wrong# I believe your testimony was that sometimes in the body, this dioxin -- I'm talking about an animal, this dioxin molecule will begin to be metabolized and you'll lose a chlorine off one corner, is that right? A. T h a t ' s correct. 1 \ ]