Document omEyQD2dMgEbNk0e153XwBDJ8

ORIGINAL 1 IN THE COMMONWEALTH COURT OF PENNSYLVANIA 2 PENNSYLVANIA DEPARTMENT OF GENERAL: NO 284 M.D. 1990 3 SERVICES, PENNSYLVANIA 4 DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION, 5 PENNSYLVANIA PUBLIC UTILITY : THIS DEPOSITION iS 10 -.c pPAD & SIGNED >.(0 nti I On.'icO : TO THE DEPOSING Al lOnf-scY. SEE INSTRUCTIONS TO WllNtSS : IN BACK OF TRANSCRIPT. 6 COMMISSION, PENNSYLVANIA EMERGENCY: 7 MANAGEMENT AGENCY, PENNSYLVANIA : 8 DEPARTMENT OF STATE : 9 Plaintiffs : 10 Vs . 11 UNITED STATES MINERAL PRODUCTS Oral Deposition of 12 COMPANY, CERTAINTEED CORPORATION, WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 13 COURTAULDS AEROSPACE, INC; April 28, 1998 14 CHEMREX, INC; PHILIPS ELECTRONICS 15 NORTH AMERICA CORPORATION, 16 ADVANCE TRANSFORMER COMPANY and 17 MONSANTO PLEASE DO NOT RETUR;; TRANSCRIPT BACK TO COURT REPORTING AGENCY 18 Defendants 19 Jurist-Begley Reporting Services 20 AN ESQUIRE COMMUNICATIONS, LTD. COMPANY 21 Philadelphia, PA New York, NY Princeton, NJ 22 215.546.1393 212.382.1330 609.844.0013 23 Wilmington, DE Nationally 24 302.426.9857 800.345.4940 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046943 2 1 Oral Deposition of 2 William B. Papageorge, taken pursuant to Notice, held 3 at the Radisson Hotel, 7750 Carondelet Plaza, St. 4 Louis, Missouri 63105, on Tuesday, April 28, 1998, at 5 10:05 a.m., before John W. Begley, a Registered 6 Professional Reporter - Notary Public there being 7 present. 8 APPEARANCES: HUMPHREY, FARRINGTON & MC CLAIN, P.C. 9 BY: KENNETH MC CLAIN, ESQUIRE 10 221 West Lexington - Suite 400 11 Independence, Missouri 64051 12 Phone: 816 - 836-5050 13 Representing the Plaintiffs 14 15 WHITE AND WILLIAMS, L.L.P. 16 BY: THOMAS M. GOUTMAN, ESQUIRE 17 One Liberty Place - 18th Floor 18 1650 Market Street 19 Philadelphia, PA 19103 20 Phone: 215 - 864-7000 21 Representing the Defendant Monsanto 22 Corporation 23 24 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46944 3 1 SMITH HELMS MULLISS & MOORE, L.L.P. 2 BY: GERARD G. DAVIDSON, JR., ESQUIRE 3 300 North Greene Street - Suite 1400 4 Greensboro, North Carolina 27401 5 Phone: 910 - 378-5267 6 Representing the Defendant Monsanto 7 Corporation 8 9 CRIVELLO, CARLSON, 10 MENTKOWSKI & STEEVES, S.C. 11 BY: JOHN T. JUETTNER, ESQUIRE 12 The Empire Building 13 710 North Plankinton Avenue - Suite 500 14 Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53203 15 Phone: 414 - 271-7722 16 Representing the Defendant ChemRex, 17 Inc . 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046945 4 1 KENT & MC BRIDE, P.C. 2 BY: ANTHONY V. MANNINO, III, ESQUIRE 3 Two Logan Square - Suite 600 4 18th and Arch Streets 5 Philadelphia, PA 19103 6 Phone: 215 - 568-1800 7 Representing the Defendants 8 Philips Electronics North America 9 Corporation and Advance Transformer 10 Company 11 12 DANAHER, TEDFORD, LAGNESE & NEAL, PC 13 BY: JAMES ROUX, ESQUIRE 14 Capitol Place 15 21 Oak Street - Suite 700 16 Hartford, Connecticut 06106 17 Phone: 860-247-3666 18 Representing the Defendant U.S. 19 Mineral Company 20 21 22 23 24 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046946 5 1 2 INDEX 3 4 WITNESS PAGE 5 6 William B. Papageorge 7 By Mr. McClain 11 8 By Mr. Mannino 196 9 By Mr. Juettner 10 By Mr. Goutman 11 200 209 12 EXHIBITS 13 14 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE 15 Papageorge 1 Curriculum Vitae of 11 16 William B. Papageorge 17 Papageorge 2 Report of Dr. Frederick B. Flinn 59 18 of Patch Tests Made on Material 19 Received from Swann Research, 20 Inc. Dated 5/25/34 21 Papageorge 3 Letter to Dr. LouisW. Spolyar 61 22 from Dr. R. Emmet Kelly dated 23 2/14/50 24 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46947 6 1 Papageorge 4 Letter to P.J.C. Haywood from 65 2 E. Mather dated 12/11/51 3 Papageorge 5 Document entitled "Seven Workers 67 4 Develop Chloracne in Plant Using 5 Aroclor" 6 Papageorge 6 Multi-page document, first page 70 7 of which is a letter to 8 Dr. H.R. Newman from J.W. Barrett 9 dated 9/8/55 10 Papageorge 7 Multi-page document, the first 84 11 page of which is a letter to 12 Dr. J.W. Barrett from 13 D.V.N. Hardy dated 12/6/55 14 Papageorge 8 Memo to Dr. A.J. Lehman from 91 15 Dr. R.E. Zwickey dated 3/8/56 16 Papageorge 9 Letter to Jack Benaveglia from 92 17 Dr. Emmet Kelly dated 2/8/60 18 Papageorge 10 Letter to Monsanto Chemical 98 19 Company from Joseph P. Allen dated 20 2/14/61 21 Papageorge 11 Letter to File from 104 22 Dr. R. Emmet Kelly dated 3/13/62 23 Papageorge 12 Letter to Monsanto Europe from 111 24 Henry Strand dated 11/28/66 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46948 7 1 Papageorge 13 Cleaner copy of Exhibit 12 117 2 Papageorge 14 Document entitled "Mr. Chairman, 119 3 Ladies and Gentlemen" 4 Papageorge 15 Letter to Mr. Wood from 122 5 Dr. R. Emmet Kelly dated 2/10/67 6 Papageorge 16 Article entitled "Chlorinated 124 7 Hydrocarbons in British Wildlife" 8 Papageorge 17 Letter to Gene Wilde from 125 9 Dr. R. Emmet Kelly dated 11/16/67 10 Papageorge 18 Document entitled "Chlorinated 131 11 Hydrocarbons in Marine Ecosystems" 12 Papageorge 19 Document entitled "Evidence of 134 13 Problem" 14 Papageorge 20 Memo to W.B. Papageorge from 149 15 Dr. R. Emmet Kelly dated 3/30/70 16 Papageorge 21 Douument entitled "Monsanto's 151 17 PCB Program" by W.B. Papageorge 18 dated 9/14/71 19 Papageorge 22 Report of Aroclor Ad Hoc 181 2 0 Committee dated 10/2/69 21 Papageorge 23 Letter to Regional Vice 186 22 Presidents from W.B. Papageorge 23 dated 4/17/70 24 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046949 8 1 2 Papageorge 24 Letter to H.S. Bergen, among 191 3 others, from W.B. Papageorge 4 dated 4/7/70 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046950 1 2 DEPOSITION SUPPORT INDEX 3 4 DIRECTION TO WITNESS NOT TO ANSWER 5 PAGE LINE PAGE LINE 6 108 18 126 19 7 126 24 127 10 8 128 14 128 18 9 10 REQUEST1 FOR PRODUCTION OF DOCUMENTS 11 PAGE LINE PAGE LINE 12 13 STIPULATIONS 14 PAGE LINE PAGE LINE 15 10 1-16 80 17 16 152 23 17 18 QUESTIONS MARKED 19 PAGE LINE PAGE LINE 20 21 22 23 24 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 9 TOWOLDMONOQ46951 10 1 THE COURT REPORTER: Usual 2 s tipulations ? 3 MR . MC CLAIN: That's fine 4 MR . JUETTNER: That's fine 5 MR . ROUX: That's fine. 6 MR . MANNINO: That's fine. 7 MR . GOUTMAN: That's fine, 8 would like the witness to read and sign the 9 transcript. 10 11 (It is hereby stipulated by and among 12 counsel for the respective parties that the 13 sealing, filing and certification are waived, 14 and that all objections, except as to the form 15 of the questions, be reserved until the time of 16 trial.) 17 18 William B. Papageorge, after having 19 first been duly sworn, was examined and 20 testified as follows: 21 22 EXAMINATION 23 24 BY MR. MC CLAIN: ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46952 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 11 1 Q. Mr. Papageorge, my name is Ken McClain and I 2 represent the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. 3 Can you describe all of the jobs that 4 you had by name with Monsanto and in what years. 5 A. May I consult the list, sir, to refresh my 6 memory better? 7 Q. You sure can. And you have been courteous 8 enough to provide me with a copy of your curriculum 9 vitae. We will mark that as the first exhibit. We 10 will make reference to that. We will mark that as 11 Exhibit 1. 12 (The above - referred-to document was 13 marked as Papageorge Exhibit 1 for 14 identification) 15 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 16 Q. Go ahead, sir. 17 A. I started with Monsanto in November of 1951. 18 The initial assignment was, carried the title of 19 Assistant Project Engineer at the Monsanto plant, 20 which was referred to as the J.F. Queeny plant 21 located in the St. Louis area. And that assignment 22 lasted until 1954. At that point I was promoted to 23 the title Senior Chemical Engineer at the same plant, 24 and that assignment lasted until 1955. I was then ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46953 WILLIAM B, PAPAGEORGE 12 1 appointed a Production Supervisor at the same plant 2 from 1955 to 1956. I then became a Maintenance 3 Supervisor at the same plant from 1956, 1957. I was 4 then appointed as Maintenance Superintendent at the 5 plant 1957 through 1959. I was then appointed as 6 Assistant Engineering Superintendent, again at the 7 same plant, 1959 to 1961. In 1961 I became a General 8 Superintendent of Warehouse, Inventories, and 9 Utilities, and that assignment lasted until 1964. 10 All of the assignments I just described were at the 11 same plant. 12 Q. The Queeny plant. 13 A. The Queeny plant. In 1964 I was transferred 14 to another Monsanto plant located across the river 15 from St. Louis in the Village of Sauget, S A U G E T, 16 Illinois, as General Superintendent of Manufacturing. 17 In 1965 I was appointed as plant manager at the 18 Anniston, Alabama plant of Monsanto, and that 19 appointment terminated in the end of 1969. In early 20 1970 I was appointed as Manager and Environmental 21 Control for the organic division of Monsanto Company 22 located in St. Louis. In 1973 my title was changed 23 to Manager of Product Acceptability for the Monsanto 24 Industrial Chemical Company. In 1977 - ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46954 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 13 1 Q. Which is a different company than you had been 2 worki ng for? 3 A. There was a reorganiz ation within Monsanto and 4 ins te ad of using the termino logy divisions, like 5 organ ic and the like, textil es, they changed the 6 subgr oups to include the wor d Monsanto and then they 7 descr ibed the types of chemi cals that each group was 8 invol ved with. 9 Q. 10 A . I'm sorry. Go ahead. Finish your answer, I was going to say th at the group in 1973 that 11 I was appointed to was refer red to as the industrial 12 chemi cal company. 13 Q. My question, though, was it a separate company 14 or wa s it simply another way to refer to the 15 di vi s ion? 16 A. It was another way to refer to the division 17 within the corporatestructure, yes. 18 Q. Go ahead. 19 A. In 1977, with another Monsanto reorganization, 20 I was appointed as Manager of Product Acceptability 21 for Monsanto Chemical Intermediates Company. Still 22 located in St. Louis. Shortly after that appointment 23 I was appointed a Director, Environmental Operations 24 for the Chemical Intermediate Unit, and that ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046955 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 14 1 assignment lasted until 1982. In 1983 I was 2 appointed Director, Environmental Operations of 3 Industrial Chemicals Company, which reflects still 4 another reorganization, and that lasted until 1985. 5 During 1986 I was appointed following another 6 reorganization at which the Monsanto Company was then 7 referred to as Monsanto Chemical Company. I was 8 appointed as Manager, Occupational Health. 9 I retired at the end of 1986. 10 Q. During your time as an employee of Monsanto, 11 and I'm using that term generically to include all of 12 the different name changes that you have described 13 for us, were you involved in the production and/or 14 distribution of the general family of products known 15 as Aroclors? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Describe, would you, for us, your role in, and 18 you don't have to go job by job, but generically, 19 perhaps by plant that you were involved in, to the 20 extent that they involved the product, your 21 assignments involving the product Aroclors. 22 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Overly broad. 23 If you can answer it, please try to do 24 so . ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046956 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 15 1 THE WITNESS: I'll try. My involvement 2 with products that included the Aroclors, 3 either as Aroclors or as ingredients, started 4 with the maintenance function in which my 5 maintenance teams were handling the Aroclor 6 containing products in systems such as heat 7 transfer systems, power distribution systems, 8 air compressors. That was my indirect 9 involvement through my team of workers. 10 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 11 Q. And that was at the Queeny plant. 12 A. At the Queeny plant, yes. 13 Q. And just to back up for a second, would you 14 describe for the jury, please, what Aroclors are. 15 A. Aroclors is a Monsanto trademark which was 16 used with a series of chlorinated biphenyls and 17 chlorinated terphenyls and blends of these chemicals, 18 and marketed under the trade name Aroclors. 19 Q. And at the Queeny plant, as an example, what 20 were these products sold? What were they 21 manufactured to be used in? 22 A. Well, the Queeny plant was not a manufacturing 23 site for Aroclors. 24 Q. So when you said that they were used at the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046957 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 16 1 Queeny plant when you were maintenance supervisor, 2 they were found in equipment contained in the Queeny 3 plant? 4 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 5 the question. 6 You may answer. 7 THE WITNESS: That is one location, yes. 8 They were also shipped to the plant for use. 9 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 10 Q. In what applications? 11 A. In heat transfer systems,electrical systems, 12 various hydraulic fluid systems. 13 Q. And what were they used for in those systems? 14 Can you describe that for us? What was their purpose 15 in those systems? 16 A. Well, it varied from application to 17 application. In the electrical systems they were 18 used as fluids to dissipate heat within electrical 19 circuitry inside of transformers, capacitors, or 20 starting switches. In the hydraulic fluid 21 application they were used as a means to transfer 22 power from, say, an electric motor to a need at the 23 other end of the system in which the fluid, very much 24 like your car brakes, the hydraulic fluid operates a ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046958 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 17 1 gadget at the other end. In the heat transfer 2 systems they were used as a means to convey heat from 3 a flame source over to a point of use in which you 4 tried to increase the temperature of some process 5 without introducing the risk of fire. 6 Q. And in general were Aroclors known in the 7 industry as PCBs? 8 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 9 the question. At what time frame are you 10 talking about? 11 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 12 Q. Are they known as PCBs today? 13 A. Today they are known as PCBs. 14 Q. Generically. 15 A. Yes. Except for the terphenyls. The Aroclor 16 also applied to the terphenyl line. 17 Q. Aroclor applied to the terphenyl line, but 18 they are not PCBs. 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Those are the poly biphenyls. 21 MR. GOUTMAN: What are the poly 22 biphenyls ? 23 MR. MC CLAIN: PCBs. 24 THE WITNESS: The polychlorinated ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46959 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 18 1 biphenyls. 2 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 3 Q. Not the tri. 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. Poly meaning two? 6 A. More than one. 7 Q. But not as many as three. I mean, what was 8 the difference between the trichloryl and the poly 9 biphenyls ? 10 A. The poly applies to the chlorine. 11 Q. Right. 12 A. Polychlorinated. When you use the expression 13 three, we use the TER terminology to describe the 14 phenyls. Terphenyl and biphenyl, so there's two 15 phenyls or three phenyls. 16 Q. Right. 17 A. The poly did not apply to the phenyl groups. 18 Q. I understand. What was your next involvement 19 with the Aroclor products? 20 A. When I was at this Queeny plant, the General 21 Superintendent of Warehousing, Inventories, and 22 Utilities I was involved in not only the utilities, 23 which means the electrical distribution systems and 24 compressed air and the like, but I was also involved ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046960 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 19 1 with a facility which was part of the inventory 2 system in which fluids containing PCBs, Aroclors, 3 were blended and shipped out either in tank car or 4 tank truck lots or in pails or barrels, so that was 5 my next involvement. 6 Q. Now, when you say they were blended, they were 7 blended for what purpose? 8 A. Well, examples include the hydraulic fluids in 9 which there are a half dozen or so ingredients blended to 10 reach certain properties. 11 Q. I see. 12 A. Or sometimes they were blended with other 13 ingredients to make the transformer electrical 14 fluids, so we would blend them in those blending 15 facilities. 16 Q. What different products -- did the products 17 that were blended at the Queeny plant receive number 18 designations following the blending or were they 19 numbered before the blending began, such as 1260s, 20 1254s, etc.? 21 A. The 1200 series referred to the 22 polychlorinated biphenyl product line. The one two 23 is the biphenyl. 24 Q. I understand. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046961 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 20 1 A. And the last two digits refer to the percent 2 of chlorine in that mixture, which was not a blended 3 mixture; it was created in the tank in which chlorine 4 bubbled through the biphenyl, and under conditions of 5 temperature and time you reached that 60 or 54 or 42 6 level. It was not a blend of the virgin individuals 7 blending to reach the 60. 8 Q. I understand. So what was blended were 9 different chemicals to give that 1260 or 1242 10 different properties. 11 A. And marketed under different names, different 12 trademarks. 13 Q. All right. So you were involved in blending 14 at the Queeny plant. What else happened at the 15 Queeny plant that involved the Aroclor product line? 16 A. Nothing else other than, of course, the 17 shipping. The warehousing, the loading of the trucks 18 and tank cars and so on. 19 Q. What then -- did anything that you did at the 20 Anniston plant involve Aroclors? 21 A. Well, the Anniston plant was one of the 22 Monsanto plants in which PCBs were manufactured, and 23 as plant manager the buck stopped at my desk. That 24 was part of the system. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046962 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 21 1 Q. What products were manufactured at Anniston? 2 A. Aroclors. 3 Q. Aroclors? 4 A. You want me to enumerate all of the Aroclor 5 PCB types? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. I'll try to remember them. Aroclor 1221, and 8 rather than repeatthe word "Aroclor" I'll just 9 mention the four digits. 10 Q. That's fine. 11 A. 1232, 1242, 1248, 1254, 1260, 1268. 12 Q. At what plant would the 1232 product have been 13 manufactured? If you know. 14 A. Anniston did make that, but that was very 15 rarely done. Yes, Anniston made 1232. 16 Q. All right. And as plant manager of Anniston 17 you say the buck stopped with you. How many 18 different people would have been involved in the 19 manufacture of Aroclor there? 20 MR. GOUTMAN: How many employees were at 21 the Anniston plant? 22 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 23 Q. Yes. At any one time. And if it 24 flue tuated - - ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46963 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 22 1 A. You mean at the whole plant or just with the 2 PCBs ? 3 Q. With the PCBs. 4 A. Just the PCBs. Of course I don't wish to 5 imply that I remember the specific numbers. I 6 remember the - 7 MR. GOUTMAN: Don't guess, sir. 8 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 9 Q. Just approximately. Just to give me some 10 sense of the size of the operation. 11 A. The reason I'm hesitating, I have to include 12 not only the people that operated the equipment who 13 made the equipment, but I have to include the 14 mechanics who repaired the product, I have to include 15 the people who shipped it, so I would say when I 16 first went there, of the 150 employees at the plant, 17 half of them were involved with PCBs to some degree. 18 Varying. 19 Q. I'm sorry. I was looking down at the date 20 when you said you first went there. 21 A. '65 . 22 Q. So in '65 how many werethere? 23 A. About 150 total. 24 Q. 150 total and half ofthose were PCB related? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046964 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 23 1 A. To some degree or other. 2 Q. So 75, approximately. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And then how many of those would have been 5 involved in the actual manufacturing on a day to day 6 basis? 7 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 8 the question. 9 THE WITNESS: Again, I have to estimate 10 it, sir. It has been decades. 25 or 30. 11 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 12 Q. Okay. All right. And then when you were 13 brought back to St. Louis as Manager, Environmental 14 Control of the Organic Division, what was your 15 involvement, if any, with Aroclor? 16 A. I was appointed to monitor the PCB 17 environmental issue that was evolving at the time. 18 Q. And at that time, 1970 through '73, when you 19 served as Manager of Environmental Control, was the 20 issue of PCBs of an urgent nature for the company? 21 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 22 the question. 23 You can answer it if you understand it. 24 THE WITNESS: I don't know how to ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046965 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 24 1 describe urgency, sir. That's subjective It 2 varies person to person. 3 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 4 Q. For you. 5 A. For me that was my assignment. That was my 6 job . 7 Q. So it was of some urgency to you. 8 MR. GOUTMAN: Same objection. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 11 Q. 11 was the principal assignment that you had 12 in S t. Louis, i s that correct, during those years '70 13 th rough '73? 14 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 15 the question. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, as long as we both 17 understand by "assignment" I was to monitor and 18 communicate. I don't want to imply that I was 19 still involved with manufacturing the material 20 or selling it or any of that. 21 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 22 Q. No. I understand. 23 A. I was monitoring the presence in the 24 environment, which was totally new to everybody at ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046966 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 25 1 that time. 2 Q. We are going to look at some documents on that 3 subject in just a moment from that time period. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. But my question was during the '70 to '73 time 6 period that was your only concern, monitoring PCBs in 7 the environment? 8 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 9 the question. 10 You can answer it. 11 THE WITNESS: I hesitate because it 12 seems to me near the end of that period, the 13 1973 period, I was assigned other Monsanto 14 products to monitor. 15 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 16 Q. So then from '70 through mid 1973 that was 17 your principal, if not only, focus. 18 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 19 the question. 20 You may answer. 21 THE WITNESS: When you use the word 22 "principal", yes. That doesn't mean that other 23 questions weren't asked of me of other product 24 lines and so on. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46967 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 26 1 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 2 Q. And as you mentioned, at or around that time 3 there were reports in the popular press and in the 4 scientific literature which concerned the question of 5 whether or not there was PCB contamination of the 6 environment; am I correct? 7 MR. GOUTMAN; Objection to the form of 8 the question. 9 You may answer. 10 THE WITNESS; That was one of the 11 questions that was raised, yes. 12 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 13 Q. And another question that was being raised was 14 was that contamination harmful to animals and/or 15 humans; correct? 16 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 17 the question. 18 THE WITNESS: That was another question, 19 yes . 20 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 21 Q. And you concerned yourself with that during 22 the years 1970 through 1973; correct? 23 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 24 the question. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046968 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 27 1 THE WITNESS: Along with other concerns. 2 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 3 Q. Yes, but that was your principal concern. 4 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 5 the question. What is "that"? Could you 6 please tell me what "that" refers to? 7 MR. MC CLAIN: The concern for whether 8 or not PCBs had contaminated the environment 9 and if they had contaminated the environment 10 whether that was a health threat to animals or 11 humans. 12 THE WITNESS: That's true, sir. Also 13 what types of PCBs. That was a question that 14 hadn't been answered yet. 15 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 16 Q. And you were addressing all of those issues 17 and trying to find answers for them. 18 A. As best I could, yes. 19 Q. Now, after you left the job of Manager, 20 Environmental Control you told us that you went on to 21 become the Manager, Product Acceptability from '7 3 22 through '77. Did you have anything in that job 23 responsibility that involved Aroclors? 24 A. Yes, Aroclors continued to be one of the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46969 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 1 groups of products that I was assigned under that new 2 title. 3 Q. And what did you do in regard to Aroclors in 4 that job responsibility? 5 A. Oh, I continued keeping informed of new 6 information, serving as a source of information 7 regarding Monsanto's involvement, both within 8 Monsanto, the left hand knowing what the right is 9 doing kind of approach, as well as the other world 10 producers of PCBs and the regulatory authorities, 11 both in the states and in Europe and in Japan and 12 universities that were conducting studies, 13 independent laboratories that were getting into the 14 analytical business, looking for PCBs. Wherever a 15 question would arise that the person posing the 16 question felt I could answer I would hear from them 17 and I would try to respond as best I could. 18 Q. Just to divert for a moment, after about 1970 19 Monsanto stopped selling Aroclors for use in so 20 called open systems, did it not? 21 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 22 the question. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, as long as we 24 understand what was meant by so-called open ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46970 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 29 1 systems. I hope your definition is the same as 2 mine . 3 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 4 Q. You tell me what you understand that term to 5 mean. 6 A. We use that expression to describe the uses in 7 which there was no provision for containing the PCBs 8 and avoiding escape into the environment. The 9 obvious example would be the presence in paint used 10 to put the yellow stripe down the highway. That is 11 in the environment almost immediately, whereas a 12 system designed to contain a heat transfer fluid 13 under high pressure and high temperature, that is 14 designed to be a closed system, and if properly 15 maintained it remains, so that's the distinction in 16 our thinking. 17 Q. And so for those so-called open systems, such 18 as paints, plasticizers, mastics, adhesives, Monsanto 19 stopped selling Aroclors for those uses? 20 A. Yes . 21 Q. In about what year was that? 22 A. That was in August of 1970. 23 Q. And was that because Monsanto concluded that 24 the reports regarding environmental contamination of ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046971 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 30 1 PCBs were correct? 2 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. What reports? 3 All reports? Some reports? 4 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 5 Q. In general at this point in time. 6 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 7 the question. 8 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 9 Q. By 1970 there had been reports of 10 environmental contamination; am I correct? 11 A. There had been reports of PCBs found in 12 samples taken from the environment which indicated a 13 presence of the higher chlorinated types of PCBs, and 14 with that information Monsanto decided that the open 15 uses were very likely a contributor to that presence, 16 and they decided to terminate sales. 17 Q. All right. And am I correct that products 18 like paints, plasticizers and mastics were 19 specifically, and let's add caulks to that, were 20 specifically identified by Monsanto by 1970 as being 21 open system products that were contributing to the 22 detected PCB contamination in the environment? 23 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 24 the question. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46972 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 31 1 THE WITNESS: I don't know about 2 Monsanto being positive or certain that they 3 were contributing, but they had the potential 4 for contributing, dependent on the specific 5 application and the care and attention given, 6 so with that potential existing Monsanto 7 believed that it should not be contributing to 8 the environmental problem by selling to those 9 types of uses. 10 BY MR . MC CLAIN: 11 Q. Were substitute products available, then, in 12 1970 for such uses in the markets? 13 MR. GOUTMAN: Can you read that 14 question back. 15 (The last question was read back by the 16 Court Reporter) 17 MR. GOUTMAN: 1974? What products are 18 we talking about? All products? 19 MR. MC CLAIN: No, paints, 20 plasticizers, mastics, caulks. 21 MR. GOUTMAN: If you know, sir. 22 THE WITNESS: Did I hear 1974? 23 BY MR . MC CLAIN: 24 Q- '70 for; not 1974. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46973 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 32 1 MR. GOUTMAN: I'm sorry. Are we talking 2 about the year 1974? 3 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 4 Q. We are talking about 1970, the year 1970, when 5 you stopped selling Aroclors for use in open systems 6 were there other products to replace the Aroclors for 7 such uses? 8 A . There were products that were available to 9 substitute; however, in many cases the substitution 10 did not result in identical properties or 11 characteristics. In many cases they had to sacrifice 12 some feature, such as durability or fire resistance 13 and so on. But there were substitutes. Some of them 14 not as favorable to our customers as they wanted. 15 Q. But after 1970 there were still paints and 16 plasticizers and mastics and caulks available on the 17 market; am I right? 18 A. Yes, with diminished properties. 19 Q. In all cases? 20 MR. GOUTMAN: If you know, sir. 21 THE WITNESS: I can't speak for all 22 cases, no. 23 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 24 Q. Now, in 1976 was there a law passed which ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46974 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 33 1 influenced the production of all Aroclors known as 2 TSCA? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What was the impact of that law, if you have 5 an understanding? 6 A. Will you help me with impact on who and where? 7 Q. On Monsanto. 8 A. On Monsanto. Well, Monsanto anticipated some 9 regulatory activity of this type, so the impact 10 really is difficult to measure because Monsanto was 11 ready to terminate all activity regarding PCBs, and 12 in fact they terminated sales before the TSCA Act 13 required it. 14 Q. When did Monsanto terminate sales of all 15 Aroclors, whether they be for a closed system or any 16 other use? 17 A. As I remember, it was July 'll . 18 Q. And that was approximately when your job 19 changed to Director of Environmental Operations. 20 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 21 the question. 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. The timing, yes. 23 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 24 Q. And did you have any responsibilities after ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46975 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 34 1 '77 in regard to Aroclors in your job as Director of 2 Environmental Operations ? 3 A. Yes, the responsibility that I had under that 4 assignment involved the use or continued use of PCB 5 type products in plants assigned to that part of 6 Monsanto in terms specifically of electrical 7 equipment, so my responsibility was to make sure that 8 if they worked on a transformer and had to drain it 9 or repair it and so on, that the proper safeguards 10 were taken and the material handled appropriately 11 Q. Now, I have an understanding, Mr. Papageorge, 12 that during approximately this time period Monsanto 13 ins tituted a program of recycling or disposing of PCB 14 by-products or fluids for cus tomers that had them 15 still in transformers or other uses. Am I accurate 16 about that? 17 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of 18 the ques tion. 19 THE WITNESS: When you say 19 7 7 , sir, 20 I - - I think you are referring, and c orrec t me 21 if I'm wrong, I think you are referring to an 22 incineration service that Monsanto offered for 23 the destruction or disposal of liquids, 24 pumpable material, that contained PCBs. As ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046976 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 35 1 best I remember, by 1977, which is the year we 2 are talking about, that unit was either down or 3 close to be being shut down. I don't remember 4 it being in service in 1977. 5 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 6 Q. How long did it operate? When did it operate? 7 A. As best I remember, it started operating in 8 late 1971. 9 Q. I s ee. 10 A. Until about 1977. 11 Q. And why was it operated during those years, 12 1971 through 1977? 13 A. To provide a means of properly destroying 14 PCBs . 15 Q. So that they didn't get into the environment. 16 A. Well, that was the ultimate obj ective, yes . 17 Q. Why after '77 was that service discontinued? 18 A. Primarily - - well, it is two reasons. One is 19 there were commercial incinerators available prior to 20 that 1977 date, but in 19 7 7, as I recall, the uni t 21 that Monsanto had had reached a point where it just 22 could not be maintained properly. It had served its 23 purpose and was damaged to the point where it had to 24 be dismantled. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46977 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 36 1 Q. In your next job as environmental, as Director 2 of Environmental Operations for Monsanto Industrial 3 Chemical Company, '83 through '85, did you continue 4 to have any responsibilities or involvement for 5 Aroclors? 6 A. Again, it was a case of for those systems that 7 still contained Aroclors at the plants assigned to 8 me, I had to make certain that proper procedures were 9 followed in handling those PCBs. 10 Q. That were still in use in those plants and 11 equipment or other uses. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And then finally you were the Manager for 14 Occupational Health for one year before your 15 retirement. Did you have any responsibility for 16 Aroclors during that time period? 17 A. Well, I had to make certain that all of 18 Monsanto's plants, which were close to 3 0, followed 19 the proper industrial hygiene practices as it related 20 to the handling of PCB materials. 1 21 Q. And what were those practices as of 1986 that 22 were in use in Monsanto plants in handling PCB 23 containing materials? 24 A. In 1986 it really referred to the use as a ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046978 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 37 1 dielectric fluid in electrical equipment. 2 Q. And what were the industrial hygiene controls 3 that were in use around dielectric fluids? 4 MR. GOUTMAN: In 1986? 5 MR. MC CLAIN: 1986. 6 THE WITNESS: 1986. There, of course, 7 was the need to keep any concentrations of the 8 vapors below the then available OSHA 9 requirements. As I remember, they were a half 10 mil1igram per cubic meter of air for Aroclor 11 1242 and one milligram per cubic meter of air 12 for Aroclor 1254. And in addition to that, 13 they were, the industrial hygienists at the 14 plants, had a responsibility for making certain 15 that the employees that might handle this 16 dielectric fluid, either from a leaking 17 transformer or topping off a transformer or 18 changing out a unit, followed the long 19 established practices of wearing the right kind 20 of gloves, don't get it on their skin, washing, 21 of course not ingesting. In other words, when 22 they stopped for lunch wash your hands before 23 you eat your food. These kinds of things were 24 part of the responsibility of the occupational ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46979 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 38 1 health system. 2 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 3 Q. And the industrial hygienists in the plants 4 reported to you? 5 A. No, the plant personnel reported within the 6 plant organization, and depending on the size of the 7 plant he may be a full- time industrial hygienist or 8 he may wear several hats. He may be the safety man, 9 he may operate the fire truck, or he may also be the 10 industrial hygienist, but in every plant that I 11 recall that individual reported in to what today is 12 called the human resources part of the plant. 13 Q. And did that human resources person have a 14 reporting responsibility to you? 15 A. No, they reported to the plant manager? 16 Q. And did anyone report to you about plant 17 activities in regard to PCBs? 18 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of 19 the question as to plant activities. 20 MR. MC CLAIN: What was going on at the 21 plant. Going on at the plant. 22 MR. GOUTMAN: What was that? 23 MR. MC CLAIN: What was going on at the 24 plant is what I mean by "plant activities". ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046980 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 39 1 MR. GOUTMAN: I think that's overly 2 b road. 3 THE WITNESS: I have a problem with your 4 use of the word "reporting". To me reporting 5 means I am the supervisor and he is responsible 6 to me and if he doesn't perform I replace him. 7 Is that the kind of reporting you are thinking 8 of? 9 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 10 Q. No, I was referring to it in the casual sense 11 of someone reporting to you about the activities of 12 the plant. 13 A. The communication function. 14 Q. That is what I mean. 15 A. Oh, yes, they would report? 16 Q. In that sense. 17 A. They would share their experiences at their 18 plants with me. I tried to stay tuned in and I 19 fulfilled a role where if an individual needed some 20 resources, whether he needed test equipment or 21 another person on his staff, I would go to bat for 22 them and go to the plant manager and arrange for 23 these things for them? 24 Q. So you were more, in regard to those persons, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46981 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 40 1 a resource person to someone to try to make sure that 2 their needs were being meant so that they could 3 handle the industrial hygiene function at the plant 4 level? 5 A. Fromtheirviewpoint? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. During your time, any of your time, at 9 Monsanto, in any of your positions, were you involved 10 in any efforts to clean up spi11s of Aroc1 ors at 11 plants ? 12 Let me back up. Were there instances 13 where there were spills at plants that were viewed as 14 a potential threat to human health? 15 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ec tion to the form of 16 the ques tion. 17 You may answer if you can. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't recall any 19 perception of a spi11 that was interpreted as a 20 threat to human health. It was just one big 21 mess kind of situation. 22 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 23 Q. Were special procedures employed to clean up 24 the mess ? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46982 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 41 1 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the use of 2 the phrase "special procedures". 3 You may answer. 4 THE WITNESS: You will have to help me 5 with "special" because it is time related. 6 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 7 Q. Tell me what, from the very earliest days, 8 there were concerns, were there not, and that is from 9 the very time that you came to work in 1951, with the 10 toxicity of PCBs? 11 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 12 the question. 13 THE WITNESS: Well, I find the word 14 "concerns" a little misleading in that the 15 concerns for PCBs were no different than the 16 concerns for all industrial chemicals. The 17 message to the workers is respect that 18 chemical. Don't wallow in it, don't drink it. 19 This kind of message. So when we have, to get 20 back to the PCB spi11, naturally he's not - - 21 he's told don't wallow, don't walk through it. 22 Contain it. Shut off the valve or whatever it 23 is to stop the continued spillage. I don't 24 know how else to explain that. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46983 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 42 1 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 2 Q. In 19 51 it is true, isn't it, that you knew, 3 when you first came to work at Queeny, that PCBs 4 could cause chloracne. 5 A. I didn't know that in 1951, no. 6 Q. You knew also, didn't you, that PCBs could 7 cause liver damage in 1951? 8 THE WITNESS: I was eventually aware of 9 that, but you mentioned '51. That's why I 10 hesitated. 11 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 12 Q. How shortly after you came to work did you 13 know that PCBs could cause chloracne? 14 A. The best I can recall, I was involved with the 15 maintenance function, which was the 1956 period. 16 Q. During that time period, 1956, did you also 17 become aware that PCB exposure could cause liver 18 damage? 19 A. Yes, it could at excessive exposures. Yes. 20 Q. And is it true that in 1956 men working around 21 PCBs were required to wear protective clothing? 22 A. Yes, just like all other chemicals. It was 23 not unique. You had to use the right gloves, the 24 right kind of coveralls, change clothes, shower. All ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46984 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 43 1 of these features were pretty universal. 2 Q. And what specifically was utilized at the 3 Queeny plant for men working around PCBs? 4 And it was men in those days, wasn't 5 it? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What were the men required to wear when 8 working around PCBs at the Queeny plant? 9 A. Of course it depended on the job and the 10 circumstances. If there were fumes, for example, 11 coming out of a tank, they were expected to put on a 12 respirator if they were going to stay exposed. If 13 there's a situation that involves handling a piece of 14 equipment, they were supposed to put on the proper 15 kind of glove that would keep the PCBs off of his 16 skin and at the same time the glove should be the 17 type that can withstand that exposure. It wouldn't 18 swell up or create a leak so that the PCB could get 19 to this person's hands. 20 Q. Because they were -- strike that. 21 Would the PCBs corrode or dissolve 22 normal gloves? 23 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. I don't know 24 what you mean by "normal gloves". ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46985 WILLIAM.B. PAPAGEORGE 44 1 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 2 Q. When you say they had to be special gloves 3 that would withstand PCBs, what did you mean? 4 A. The material of choice then was neoprene type. 5 It is a synthetic rubber. They were discouraged - 6 not discouraged; they were not allowed to use, say, 7 canvas lined gloves or cotton woven, cotton gloves, 8 or any other material that would absorb the liquid. 9 Q. Why? 10 A. To keep the PCB off of their skin. 11 Q. Could PCBs be absorbed through the skin? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Could they affect the skin surface as well? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And so the neoprene gloves were designed to 16 keep the PCBs off the skin. 17 MR. GOUTMAN: That's what he just said. 18 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't want to make 19 it sound like the neoprene gloves were 20 specifically designed just for PCBs. 21 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 22 Q. I understand. 23 A. They happened to be appropriate becauseof the 24 characteristic of neoprene for involvement with PCBs. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46986 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 45 1 Q. And in regard to the respirators, what type of 2 respirators were uti1ized when working around PCBs ? 3 A. I don't remember - - 4 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ec tion to the form of 5 the ques tion. Excuse me. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't remember the 7 catalog number. It is a respirator designed to 8 absorb organic chemical fumes. 9 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 10 Q. And they weren't just paper masks, as an 11 example. 12 A. No, they had an absorbant material, primarily 13 carbon. 14 Q. Cartridges? 15 A. Cartridges that were replaceable. As long as 16 they sense that some of the odor is getting through 17 they would get a new cartridge. 18 Q. And what about covering for the shoes of the 19 men working with it? Were they required to wear 20 covers over their shoes made of neoprene? 21 A. Covers were available. Also what we call at 22 the plants booties, which are - - you don't need a 23 pair of shoes inside the booty; it is a shoe in and 24 of itself made of a resistant material. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46987 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 46 1 Q. And those were utilized when working around 2 PCBs; is that correct? 3 A. They were available and it was a judgment call 4 on the part of the employee to decide whether he's 5 going to have to walk through it or he doesn't have 6 to put anything special on his feet. 7 Q. Why was that of concern, that someone would 8 walk through it, in normal shoes? 9 A. Well, by normal shoes, let's agree that we are 10 talking about the typical leather top shoe with, 11 perhaps, a synthetic rubber sole, maybe even a 12 leather sole. Now, the leather, itself, is an 13 absorbent. The liquid will soak through fairly 14 quickly and get to the person's socks and his skin. 15 And the whole idea is to avoid that kind of exposure. 16 This is why the booties were recommended. It goes 17 above the ankle so that it gives you a little more 18 protection. 19 Q. All right. And so there was a concern that 20 absorbing this material, even into the shoes, could 21 be absorbed into the systems of the workers ? 22 A. Yes. 23 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of 24 the question. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046988 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 47 1 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 2 Q Through the soles of their feet? 3 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of 4 the question. 5 You may answer if you can. 6 THE WITNESS: My answer is yes. 7 BY MR .. MC CLAIN: 8 Q Were the workers provided with coveralls or 9 o ther clothing at the plant that they were required 10 to leave at the plant when working around PCB 11 materials? 12 A. Yes . 13 Q Why? 14 A . That wasn't unique to PCBs. The whole plant 15 had a change of clothing as part of the practice in 16 the plant. 17 Q . Why? 18 A . Because in a chemical plant everyone is 19 exposed to so many different kinds of chemicals. It 20 was decided prudent that the clothing used 21 throughout the day, whether it had dust on it or oil 22 stain or what have you, be thrown into the dirty 23 clothes bin and laundered by a commercial laundry so 24 that the employee did not take any of that into the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046989 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 48 1 family laundry room and expose his family, not 2 knowing what is on that garment. 3 Q. So did Monsanto have concerns that even the 4 residue of these chemicals contained on clothing 5 might be a health risk to persons that were related 6 to workers? 7 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 8 the question. 9 MR. MC CLAIN: Related or lived in the 10 home, I guess, would be a better description. 11 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 12 the question. 13 THE WITNESS: Well, there is that 14 thought. I don't know. Concern implies almost 15 panic. 16 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 17 Q. No, I didn't say anything about panic. 18 A. I don't know about that. 19 Q. But you were, as the maintenance supervisor at 20 Queeny, at least aware of the potential that if the 21 men wore their coveralls home after working around 22 the Aroclors that that material could be absorbed in 23 the skin of their wives or persons laundering the 24 coveralls they took home; am I right? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46990 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 49 1 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 2 the question. 3 THE WITNESS: It is just the presence of 4 PCBs or any industrial chemical in the home 5 that is perceived to be inappropriate. It has 6 no place in the home, so don't take it home is 7 the thought behind this laundry service that 8 was provided. 9 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 10 Q. And that was in place in 1961, when you were 11 maintenance supervisor at Queeny, as an example, just 12 to put a date on it. 13 I'm sorry. I picked the wrong date. I 14 don't know why I said '61. The date on your CV is 15 1956 through 1957. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Now, to get back to my question, we started 18 down this road because I asked the question were 19 there times at plants, at the Queeny plant as an 20 example, where there were specific cleanups employed 21 because there was a generalized concern that if it 22 didn't get cleaned up it would be a health threat to 23 workers ? 24 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. That's been 'ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46991 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 50 1 asked and answered. 2 MR. MC CLAIN: I want to be clear about 3 it because we had some definitional problems 4 which is why we started down this road. 5 MR. GOUTMAN: I don't think there were 6 any definitional problems. He already answered 7 the question ------- 8 MR. MC CLAIN: Okay. I don't need to 9 fight with you; all I want to ask the witness 10 whether or not he can answer the question. 11 MR. GOUTMAN: If I can just finish a 12 sentence without you interrupting me, Ken. The 13 witness has answered that question, there are 14 no definitional problems, I object to the 15 question, but if the witness would like to try 16 to answer it again that's fine. 17 Read back the question, please. 18 (The last question was read back by the 19 Court Reporter). 20 THE WITNESS: There were in place 21 procedures for coping with different spills, 22 depending on the size of the spill, the 23 location, the temperature of the spill. If it 24 is a cold fluid it is an awful lot like oil ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46992 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 51 1 from your car in the garage floor kind of thing 2 or if it is a leak from a very hot source where 3 it is fuming while it is on the ground, that's 4 a little different scenario or scene. The 5 whole idea was to prevent employees from 6 unnecessarily coming near it. Each case can 7 result in a different approach. If a spill is 8 minor, in the fifties, as we are talking about, 9 such things as sawdust, clay, or sand would be 10 used to absorb the spilled liquid. Later on in 11 the '70's there was an attempt to contain the 12 spills inside of drip pans and buckets that 13 would contain the fluids so that it could 14 easily be transferred into an appropriate 15 place. I don't know what else to add because 16 in time the procedures did change, depending on 17 what was known and what was available. 18 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 19 Q. You mentioned the problem of - 20 MR. GOUTMAN: Excuse me before you pose 21 the next question. 22 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 23 Q. You mentioned - 24 MR. GOUTMAN: I think the record should ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46993 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 52 1 be clear that this witness was addressing 2 industrial chemicals generally and not 3 specifically Aroclors in that last answer. 4 MR. MC CLAIN: I don't need your 5 clarification at all. 6 MR. GOUTMAN: I don't really care if you 7 need it, Ken. 8 MR. MC CLAIN: Unless you want to raise 9 your hand and be sworn, because I will be happy 10 to take your deposition if you would like me 11 to, but I don't know if you have the ability to 12 testify one way or the other. Any time you 13 want to ask the witness any questions I'll be 14 happy to stop and go take a break. You can ask 15 him whatever questions you would like. That's 16 certainly your right. I would prefer that you 17 do it after I'm done, but I'll give you the 18 courtesy if you want to ask a question, but I 19 don't think it is proper for you to testify. 20 MR. GOUTMAN: Well, I thought that you 21 would want to know or keep the record straight 22 23 MR. MC CLAIN: Thank you for your 24 courtesy. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46994 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 53 1 MR. GOUTMAN: Excuse me, Ken. Just 2 don't interrupt me anymore today. 3 MR. MC CLAIN: I'll do whatever, Tom, I 4 feel I need to at the appropriate time. I'll 5 try to contain myself, though. 6 MR. GOUTMAN: Ken, this deposition won't 7 continue if you continue to interrupt me. 8 MR. MC CLAIN: Then we will have to come 9 back . 10 MR. GOUTMAN: I don't think Judge 11 Mirarchi countenances counsel interrupting 12 other counsel. Now, I will be courteous to you 13 14 MR. MC CLAIN: I don't think Judge 15 Mirarchi - - 16 MR. GOUTMAN: You just did it again. 17 MR. MC CLAIN: I don't think Judge 18 Mirarchi would countenance you leaning over, 19 whispering to the witness, and then testifying 20 on the record. I don't appreciate that. 2 1 MR. GOUTMAN: Sir, I don't think that 22 Judge Mirarchi likes counsel interrupting other 23 counsel. Now, if you can't conduct yourself in 24 a gentlemanly fashion and a professional ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46995 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 54 1 fashion and let me finish a sentence, this 2 deposition will end. 3 MR. MC CLAIN: Tom, I think you are 4 being overly sensitive about this, and I think 5 I could get three witnesses to that effect. 6 I have been very low key here, I haven't been 7 discourteous in the least, but if you feel like 8 I have been, you know, end the deposition at 9 your peril. 10 MR. GOUTMAN: No, I'm asking you not to 11 interrupt me, sir. Can you do that? 12 MR. MC CLAIN: I don't know. We will 13 see. 14 MR. GOUTMAN: I was interested in 15 clarifying the record and that's why I 16 interjec ted that comment. If you are not 17 interested in clarifying the record, that's 18 fine. 19 MR. MC CLAIN: I appreciate your 20 clarifying the record by asking questions at an 21 appropriate time. 22 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 23 Q. Mr. Papageorge, you said some thing that 24 sparked a question that I wanted to raise with you, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046996 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 55 1 which is the question of what happens to PCBs when 2 they are heated. At some temperature do they become 3 furans ? 4 A. Become what, sir? 5 Q. Furans. 6 A. Furans? 7 Q . Furans. 8 A. Furans? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. I'm sorry. 11 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 12 the question. 13 THE WITNESS: My chemistry training 14 tells me, sir, that there is very likely a 15 temperature that must be present for furans to 16 be created, along with several other conditions 17 with the formation of furans. It's not just a 18 temperature function. 19 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 20 Q. What are those conditions that - 21 A. You would have to havecarbon, oxygen, 22 hydrogen, chlorine in the proper configuration so you 23 end up with a chemical which is called a furan, yes? 24 Q. Did you ever deal with the issue of the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46997 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 56 1 transformation of PCBs into furans in a fire 2 situation while you were with Monsanto? 3 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 4 the question. 5 THE WITNESS: No. 6 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 7 Q. That never was an issue that you addressed. 8 A . No . 9 Q. Were you involved in any situations involving 10 PCBs in fires in buildings during your time at 11 Monsanto ? 12 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 13 the question. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 16 Q. What situations were you involved with? 17 A. These were litigation matters. I recall the 18 Binghamton, New York situation. I remember the One 19 Market Plaza situation. That's all I recall. 20 Q. And what was your involvement in Binghamton, 21 New York? 22 A. I certainly was aware of the situation there 23 and I got my information from attorneys. 24 MR. GOUTMAN: Well, in that case don't ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0046998 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 57 1 go any further. I caution you not to disclose 2 anything, any communications, between yourself 3 and counsel for Monsanto. 4 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 5 Q. Did you testify as a witness in that matter? 6 MR. GOUTMAN: In what matter; 7 Binghamton? 8 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. 9 THE WITNESS: No. 10 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 11 Q- Did you provide any advice or direction to the 12 building owner in that circumstance? 13 A . No . 14 Q- Did Monsanto? 15 A . I don't know. 16 Q- So other than information that you received 17 from attorneys, did you know anything about the 18 Binghamton, New York matter? 19 A. What I read in the local newspapers. 20 Q. And what was that that you can recall? 21 A. That a fire occurred, the allegations that the 22 building was unfit for human occupancy. That kind of 23 thought remains with me. It has been several years 24 now. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ46999 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 58 1 Q. Yes. In regard to your responsibilities, did 2 you have any responsibilities to investigate whether 3 or not it was fit for habitation or what effect the 4 fire would have in a building that contained PCBs? 5 A. No . 6 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. 7 Sir, you are going to have to wait until 8 I have a chance to object before you answer. 9 Objection to the form of the question. 10 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 11 Q. What about One Market Plaza? What was your 12 understanding of what happened there? 13 MR. GOUTMAN: Again, sir, I caution you 14 not to disclose any information that you 15 obtained by virtue of communications between 16 yourself and counsel for Monsanto. 17 THE WITNESS: The only information I 18 recall I read in the public press. 19 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 20 Q. What did you understand the situation was 21 there from your reading in the public press? 22 A. That a transformer failed with a resulting 23 fire, and that's about it that I can remember. 24 Q. Were you asked by Monsanto to investigate this ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047000 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 59 1 matter? 2 A . No . 3 Q. Did you make any determination in regard to 4 this matter about whether or not the presence of PCBs 5 made that building uninhabitable? 6 A . No . 7 Q. Was there a predecessor company to Monsanto in 8 the manufacture of PCBs? 9 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Calls for a 10 legal conclusion. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 13 Q. As you understand it, was there a predecessor 14 company? 15 MR. GOUTMAN: Same objection. 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 18 Q. What was that company? 19 A. Swann Chemical Company. 20 Q. Let me show you a document and see if you have 21 seen it before today. 22 Let's mark this as Exhibit Papageorge 23 2. (Indicating). 24 (The above-referred-to document was ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047001 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 60 1 marked as Papageorge Exhibit 2 for 2 identification) 3 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 4 Q. Okay? 5 A. I have read the exhibit. 6 Q. Were you aware that as early as 1934 Swann 7 Chemical had performed studies concerning dermatitis 8 and exposure to Aroclors? 9 MR. GOUTMAN: At what point? 10 MR. MC CLAIN: Was he aware at any point 11 in his career. 12 THE WITNESS: I was informed in the 13 early 1970's of Swann's experience with skin 14 problems with employees. This particular 15 Exhibit is not familiar to me. I don't recall 16 ever seeing it. 17 MR. MC CLAIN: But you had heard in 1970 18 that Swann had done some research into exposure 19 to Aroclor? 20 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Misstates 21 prior testimony. 22 THE WITNESS: No, I had heard that 23 Swann, as a producer of PCBs, had an incident 24 where employees had a skin condition. I do not ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047002 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 61 1 relate that to any formal tests as described in 2 this document. (Indicating) 3 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 4 Q. Do you have any understanding about whether or 5 not that testing was pursued that is described in the 6 document in front of you? 7 A. I do not. 8 Q. Did you know Dr. Emmet Kelly? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q . Who was he? 11 A. He at one time was Monsanto Company's 12 corporate medical director. 13 Q. And when did you come to know him? 14 A. I don't recall when I first met the man, but 15 he and I got to know each other better starting when 16 I was plant manager at Anniston, Alabama, and he 17 would make his visits to the plant. 18 MR. MC CLAIN: Let me hand you what we 19 will mark as Papageorge Exhibit 3. 20 (Indicating). 21 (The above-referred-to document was 22 marked as Papageorge Exhibit 3 for 23 identification) 24 BY MR. MC CLAIN: ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047003 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 62 1Q 2 Did - MR. GOUTMAN: Do you want him to read it 3 first? 4 MR. MC CLAIN: First I want to ask a 5 question because I may want to give you another 6 document to look at with that document. 7 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 8 Q. Did Monsanto have a plant in Brazil, Indiana? 9 A. Not that I know of. 10 Q. Did you know a Mr. Frank Capnea? 11 A . No . 12 Q. Go ahead and review this document. 13 A. I have read the exhibit. 14 Q. Did you know that in 1950 Dr. Kelly suspected 15 the possibility that Aroclor fumes might cause liver 16 damage? 17 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Objection to 18 the form of the question. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 21 Q. And that he based that on work that had been 22 done by Dr. Drinker in 1938? 23 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 24 the question. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047004 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 63 1 THE WITNESS: Oh, I don't know that Dr. 2 Kelly based his opinion on only that work, so I 3 can't speak for Dr. Kelly. 4 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 5 Q. Are you familiar that Dr. Drinker did work in 6 1938 regarding Aroclors? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And were you aware that Dr. Kelly was aware of 9 that work? 10 A . Yes. 11 MR. MC CLAIN: Why don't we take a 12 break. We have been going for about an 13 hour-and-a-half. 14 MR. GOUTMAN: Sure. 15 (Off the record discussion) 16 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 17 Q. Did you know an E. Mather? 18 A. Matter or Mather? 19 Q . MATHER. 20 A. Oh, Mather. Yes. 21 Q. Who is he? 22 A. He's a Monsanto employee working in the 23 Monsanto research department. 24 Q. By the way, I had a question about the last ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047005 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 64 1 Exhibit. Who is Mr. Paul Benignus? 2 A. Benignus? 3 Q. Benignus. 4 A. He's a Monsantoemployee with various 5 assignments throughout Monsanto. 6 MR. GOUTMAN: You are taking his 7 deposition next week. 8 MR. MC CLAIN: Okay. Thank you. 9 MR. GOUTMAN: He'll be able to tell you 10 who he is. 11 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 12 Q. What was his responsibility? 13 A. At what point in time, sir? 14 Q. In 1951, 1950. 15 A. He was theindividual in Monsanto's business 16 group that associated with fluid, functional fluids, 17 industrial fluids, and he was responsible for the 18 electrical applications? 19 Q. During what period of time did he remain in 20 that position? Do you know? 21 A. He retired in 1974, so it is before 1950 and 22 ending in 1974? 23 Q. Who was Mr. P.J.C. Haywood? 24 A. Would you repeat that last name again? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047006 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 65 1 Q. Haywood, HAYWOOD. 2 A. The name rings a faint bell, but I at the 3 moment can't place him. 4 MR. MC CLAIN: This will be Papageorge 5 Exhibit 4. (Indicating). 6 (The above - referred-to document was 7 marked as Papageorge Exhibit 4 for 8 identification) 9 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 10 Q. When you came to work - 11 MR. GOUTMAN: Excuse me. He's still 12 reading, Ken. 13 MR. MC CLAIN: Sorry. 14 THE WITNESS: I have read the exhibit. 15 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 16 Q. Do you see on page two of this document, in 17 reference to Aroclors in 1948 it is suggested by 18 Robert M. Brown, the Chief of the Industrial Hygiene 19 section. Division of Health, Department of Public 20 Welfare, City of St. Louis, Missouri, that there is a 21 need to give warnings when working around and with 22 Aroclors? 23 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 24 the question. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47007 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 66 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is there. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Was there a warning given in 1951 when you came to work on tanks or drums of Aroclors that went out from the plant? A. I think you are referring to the label affixed to the container? Q. Yes. A. Yes, there were warnings. Yes. Q. There were warnings? A. Yes. Q. And what did that warning say? A. I don't propose to give you the exact wording, but it referred to avoidance of skin contact, breathing fumes, injesting. Words to that effect. Q. Was there any mention made of the possibility of liver damage on that label that you recall? A. No, effects are never on labels, sir. Q. My question was did it say anything about liver damage. A. The answer is no. Typical of all industrial chemicals. Q. And was there any mention made of dermatitis on the label? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047008 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 67 A . No, it refers to avoid skin contact. Q. Or chloracne? A. That's correct. There is no mention of chloracne specifically. Q. Let me show you what we will mark as Papageorge Exhibit 5. (Indicating). (The above-referred-to document was marked as Papageorge Exhibit 5 for identification) BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Sir. A. I have read the exhibit. . Q. Can you identify any of the individuals referenced in the top in handwriting? J.W. Meigs? J.J. Albon? I can't read. B.L. Whomever. Maybe you can. It refers to the -- I thought it was, at first glance, a reference to who it went to. A. I don't recognize any of those names. Q. I think that's the authors of an article as I look at it more closely. This is apparently a report of an article or summary of an article that appeared in The Journal of the American Medical Association in 1954. You were aware, at about this time, about the problem ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 68 of chloracne and contact dermatitis in ' 54. MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: I was aware of the possibility of chloracne symptoms due to excessive exposures to PCBs. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. And what are chloracne symptoms? A. I'm no medical person, but I have seen -- Q. What is it? A. It looks like, to me, it looked like teenage acne concentrated on the cheekbone area and the hairline behind the ears. (Indicating). Q. Was it painful to the workers as it was reported to you? A. No pain; it was a disfiguration. The treatment was painful. Q. What was the treatment? A. In those days they used ultra violet light. This is not for a PCB exposure; this is a different chemical. Q. And what was that chemical? A. It was a wood treating chemical, sodium pentachlorophenate. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47010 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 69 Q. That's when you saw it? A. That's the group that was in my work group that made this wood treating chemical and were exposed during the process. Q. Did you observe it in connection, "it" being chloracne, in association with workers working in the Queeny plant around Aroclors? A. No . Q. Why? A. Never. Q. Was it because of the precautions that were taken in the plant to prevent workers from being exposed? MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection. Calls for a medical conclusion. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. If you can draw that conelusion. A. Well, sir - - MR. GOUTMAN: I also obj ec t because it calls for speculation. THE WITNESS: I don't know how to answer that except that the precautions that we took were intended to avoid situations like that and we would like to think that they were ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047011 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 70 successful. That's what that tells us . MR. MC CLAIN: I will show you what we are going to mark as Papageorge Exhibit 6. (Indicating). (The above-referred-to document was marked as Papageorge Exhibit 6 for identification). MR. GOUTMAN: My obj ec tion to the use of this document, it was produced in the Scott litigation when documents in the Scott litigation were subj ec t to a confidentiality order entered by the judge in that 1itigation. MR. MC CLAIN: So you didn't produce it in this case? MR. GOUTMAN: I don't know if this particular document was produced in this case or not, but it certainly wasn't Bates stamped SCM 048757 . I just - - MR . MC CLAIN: If it wasn't - - MR . GOUTMAN: You are interrupting me again and therefore I object. MR. MC CLAIN: If it wasn't produced in this litigation I want to know why not. I want to know on what basis it was withheld because ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47012 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 71 this is the only copy of it that I have got. I see no reason why it should have been withheld for any other reason. MR. GOUTMANj I don't know if it was withheld or not. MR. MC CLAIN: I don't know either, but since you raised the issue - - MR. GOUTMAN: There you go interrupting me again. Try to control yourself and don't interrupt me. I would like to finish my s tatement. MR. MC CLAIN: Don't tell me don't interrupt you. I'm not going to take your direction on anything; all I want to know is why this document wasn't produced in this case. MR. GOUTMAN: I would sugges t, sir, that you take a break and get control of yourself. MR. MC CLAIN: I am no t out of control. You have interj ec ted a specious obj ec tion and it raised a real question in my mind about the production of documents in this case. MR. GOUTMAN: 11 raises a que s tion in mind because I would like to know how you got ahold of documents that are subj ect to a ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47013 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 72 1 confidentiality agreement. Why don' t you tell 2 us that for the record. 3 MR. MC CLAIN: I want - - I'll answer 4 your question if you tell me why this wasn't 5 produced in this case. 6 MR. GOUTMAN: I don't know if it was 7 produced or not. 8 MR. MC CLAIN: And if you made the 9 decision to withhold it. 10 MR. GOUTMAN: I don't know if it was 11 produced or not. Are you telling us as an 12 officer of the court that this document was not 13 produced? 14 MR. MC CLAIN: I'm telling you this is 15 the copy that I have got in my file and it does 16 not bear a Bates stamp number, as you point 17 out, from your production in this case and this 18 is the copy that I have in front of me. I 19 believe it was produced to us from another 20 source which I don't believe was you, so it 21 leads me to the conclusion that it wasn't 22 produced in this case. 23 MR. GOUTMAN: Sir, are you saying as an 24 officer of the court that this document was not ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47014 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 73 1 produced by us in this litigation? 2 MR. MC CLAIN: I beli eve i t was not. 3 MR. GOUTMAN: Fine . We will put tha 4 the test. 5 MR. MC CLAIN: Okay. Let's do tha t. 6 MR. GOUTMAN: Do you have a question 7 about this document ? 8 Are you done reading it? 9 THE WITNESS: No yet. 10 I have read the exhibit. 11 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 12 Q. Were you aware in 1955 that concerns were 13 being raised about surface coating use of Aroclors? 14 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 15 the question. 16 THE WITNESS: In 1955 I was not. 17 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 18 Q. Were you aware that there were concerns being 19 raised by Dr. Kelly about uses of Aroclors in 20 household uses? 21 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 22 the question. 23 THE WITNESS: In 1955, sir? 24 BY MR. MC CLAIN: ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47015 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 74 Q. Yes. A. I was not. Q. Do you seewhere hesays, at page two of the second document contained in the group dated S eptember 2 0, 19 5 5 - - A. Do I see theparagraph? I do. Q. Where he says, "If it is in an industrial application where we can get air concentrations and have some reasonable expectation that the air concentrations will stay the same, we are much more liberal in the use of Aroclor. If, however, it is distributed to householders where it can be used in almost any shape and form and we are never able to know how much of the concentration they are exposed to, we are much more strict." Do you see that ? A. I see that. Q. Did you know anything about this in 1955? A. No . Q. Did you know that this was a subj ec t of coneern for Dr. Kelly? MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: At that time? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047016 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 75 BY MR . MC CLAIN: Q Yes . A . No . Q. Who was Dr. D.V.N. Hardy? A . He was a medical doctor located in the British Isles. I don't know if he was located in Wales or in London, but he was associated with Monsanto in England. Q. Did you know that there was work on the toxicology of Aroclors going on in Germany? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: At what point in time? BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q Did you come to know it at any point in time? A. Yes . Q. What was the work that was done in regard to toxicology of Aroclors that was performed in Germany? A. I can only recall I was informed of the studies in Germany, but at this moment I can't recall any details. Q. You can't recall the results? A. I don't recall any of the specifics. How it was performed, who it was performed for, or what the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47017 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 76 results were. Q. Who was J.W. Barrett? A. Barrett was a Monsanto employee in England in their research function in the London office. Q. Who was Howard Nason? A. Mr. Nason was the head of the research department of Monsanto located in St. Louis. Q. Do you know why Mr. Barrett would say, would write, that they wouldn't do any toxicological studies without full discussion with Mr. Nason? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: Can you tell me where that is, sir? BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. It is on the second page of the first document. A. No, I don't know what Mr. Barrett had in mind. Q. Do you see here in the September 20, 1955 letter to J.W. Barrett from Dr. Kelly where he says MCC's position, and that MCC means Monsanto Chemical Company, doesn't it? A. Yes. Q. "Monsanto Chemical Company's position can be ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47018 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 77 summarized in this fashion. We know Aroclors are toxic but the actual limit has not been precisely- defined. " As of 1955, did you have an understanding that it was Dr. Kelly's view that the precise level of toxicity had not been defined precisely of Aroclors? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection as to what Dr. Kelly's thinking was. This witness is not Dr. Ke1ly. You can answer the question if you can. THE WITNESS: I am not aware of the situation as it existed in 1955. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. He goes on to say, "It does not make too much difference, it seems to me, because our main worry is what will happen if an individual develops any type of liver disease and gives a history of Aroclor exposure. I am sure the juries would not pay a great deal of attention to the MACs11 , which I think are Maximum Allowable Concentrations. MAC A. MAC is that, yes. I have no - MR. GOUTMAN: There's no question. Do you have a question about that? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47019 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 78 1 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 2 Q. Yes, the question is did you ever discuss this 3 with Dr. Kelly or know that he was discussing this 4 with others at that time? 5 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 6 the question. 7 THE WITNESS: I did not know and do not 8 know. 9 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 10 Q. Do you see on the last page of this document. 11 the series of correspondence between Kelly and 12 Barrett where he says, "You commented in your letter 13 about the difference in toxicity between" -- 14 MR. GOUTMAN: Sir, where are you? 15 MR. MC CLAIN: The last page. 16 BY MR. MC CLAIN; 17 Q. "This paragraph should read", do you see where 18 he makes that correction on the document? Is your 19 document the same as mine? 20 A . It doesn't look the same, sir. 21 MR . GOUTMAN: No, we don't have that 22 page . 23 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 24 Q. Is it stapled in a different order perhaps? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47020 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 79 When they put together the copies. MR. GOUTMAN: It doesn't contain that page . MR. MC CLAIN: Do you have a different page? MR. GOUTMAN: No. MR. MC CLAIN: That page is missing. I'm sorry. Except for the highlighted copy I have got -- can I walk around with this and we will substitute this as the exhibit? Although it has got my handwriting on it. MR. GOUTMAN: Just tear off the last page . MR. MC CLAIN: What we will do is then add it to your document. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. This last document, go ahead and review it. A. I have read it. Q. Does it appear to you to be part of the sequence of correspondence that is contained in Exhibit 6? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. No foundation. This witness has testified that he knows nothing about this document. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47021 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 80 1 In any event, you may answer if you can. 2 THE WITNESS: Your guess is as good as 3 mine. I don't know. 4 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 5 Q. Do you see that it is between the same 6 individuals ? 7 MR. GOUTMAN: Can I see it again? 8 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes . 9 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. The document 10 speaks for itself. 11 THE WITNESS: The same individuals are 12 noted on each of the two exhibits. 13 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 14 Q. And the date sequence is in close proximity of 15 each other. 16 MR. GOUTMAN: One is September 20 and 17 one is September 22. We will stipulate to 18 that. 19 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 20 Q. Do you see where it says, "You commented in 21 your letter about the difference in toxicity between 22 Aroclor 1254 and 1242. These differences are not 23 surprising because in the earlier work it was found 24 that toxicity increased with degree of chlorination." ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047022 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 81 Did you see that? A. Yes. Q. Did you know that was Dr. Kelly's opinion in 1955? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: Did I know in 1955 that that was Dr.Kelly's opinion? BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Yes. A. I did not. Q. Did you have that opinion in 1955? A. No. Q. Was there a different warning placed on Aroclors depending upon their degree of chlorination? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. When? MR. MC CLAIN: In 1955. THE WITNESS: No. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Did you see where it says, "Of course, the volatility is important in the case of inhalation toxicity, and absorption into the intestinal tract is important from the point of oral toxicity"? MR. GOUTMAN: You are going to have to ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47023 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 82 show it to us . MR. MC CLAIN: I apologize. THE WITNESS: I see that, yes. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Did you have any understanding of that subject in 1955, the difference in toxicity depending upon the volatility? A. I did not. Q. Was there any mention of that made on any of the labels that you saw, that any one of Aroclors was more toxic than the other? A. No, we treated all of them as though they could cause problems if excessive amounts were absorbed or eaten or inhaled. Q. Was there any reference given on any of them that in an industrial use certain uses were appropriate whereas uses in households were not appropriate? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of the question. You can answer. THE WITNESS: I am not aware of any such distinction. MR. GOUTMAN: Do you want this affixed? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47024 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 83 1 (Indicating). 2 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. 3 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 4 Q. What is your preference, Mr. Papageorge, in 5 regard to lunch? Do you take lunch? We are going to 6 be a while. If I - 7 MR. GOUTMAN: The -- I'm interrupting 8 you . 9 MR. MC CLAIN: You can interrupt me at 10 any time you want. 11 MR. GOUTMAN: How long do you think you 12 will be? 13 MR. MC CLAIN: I think I'm c1early going 14 to be another three hours. I think that's 15 about my bes t estimate of wha t it wi11 take. 16 So I think we probably - - four o'clock or so. 17 MR. GOUTMAN: Sorry. The quest ion is 18 with a break or without a break? 19 MR. MC CLAIN: I think it is unfair to 20 the witness if I push on for three hours 21 without a break, don't you? 22 MR. GOUTMAN: Let me talk to the 23 witnes s. 24 MR. MC CLAIN: I can do that if you want ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47025 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 84 to MR. GOUTMAN: Let me talk to him off the record. Off the record (Off the record discussion). MR. GOUTMAN: We are going to break for lunch at an appropriate time. MR. MC CLAIN: There's two more documents in the fifties. MR. GOUTMAN: Will we get to some documents that he authored or received? MR. MC CLAIN: Received? No, there's not going to be any of those. This will be Papageorge Exhibit 7. (Indicating). (The above - referred-to document was marked as Papageorge Exhibit 7 for identification) MR. GOUTMAN: Same objection as to the use of the document that has been subject of a confidentiality order. THE WITNESS: I have read the exhibit. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. First of all, did you, at the time, 1955, know ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47026 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 85 1 that there was so much discussion about the toxicity 2 of Aroclors based upon their chlorination? 3 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 4 the question. 5 THE WITNESS: No. 6 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 7 Q. Do you see here where it says that it was 8 being considered in 1955 to pass on to the American 9 Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists a 10 recommendation that different standards be adopted 11 for different Aroclors? 12 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 13 the question. 14 You may answer. 15 THE WITNESS: I do see that, yes. 16 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 17 Q. You never saw a label that suggested such a 18 different standard, did you? 19 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 20 the question. 21 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 22 Q. From Monsanto. 23 A. Sir, the industrial hygienists do not have 24 their recommendations on any label for industrial ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47027 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 86 chemicals. Q. Did you ever know that there was a different standard suggested for different chlorination levels of Aroclor? A. Did I ever know it? Yes. Q. And was that by the ACGIH? A. Yes. Q. And when did they adopt that? A. As best I recall, the late 1950's. Q. Do you see here that it says that the information being given out as of 1955 was that the higher, this is on page two of the first document I'm referring to in that first paragraph, do you see where it says that the information that was given out as of 1955 was that the higher chlorinated Aroclors were less toxic than the lower level chlorinated Aroclors ? MR. GOUTMAN: Are you referring to a specific sentence? MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. I'm referring to that paragraph that begins, "However, if the MCC", that is Monsanto Chemical Company's, "recommendations are accepted there will be an implication that Aroclor toxicity increases ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47028 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 87 1 with chlorine content, a reversal of all of the 2 position suggested in MCC technical 3 literature", and then it goes on to quote it. 4 MR. GOUTMAN: All right. What is the 5 question? I'm sorry. I didn't hear a question. 6 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 7 Q. Did you know that as of 1955 Monsanto Chemical 8 Company had circulated literature that said the 9 higher the chlorination the less toxic it was? 10 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 11 the question. 12 THE WITNESS: Did I know it in 1955? 13 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. I did not. 16 Q. Do you seehere inparagraph three where there 17 was concern being raised about using Aroclors in 18 paints? 19 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 20 the question. 21 THE WITNESS: There was concern in the 22 use of latex paints. I see that. 23 BY MR. MC CLAIN: N. 24 Q. And did youhave anyunderstanding in 1955 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47029 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 88 that that was a concern of Dr. Kelly? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: In 1955? BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Yes. A. No. Q. Look on page three, where it says, "As far as the paints in question are concerned it is impossible to know how any particular can may be eventually used, so every can would need to show the warnings and precautions for all foreseeable eventualities. The presence of these warnings would tend to deter people from using the paints even in cases where no special precautions were needed." Do you see that? A. I do. Q. Do you know that there were discussions about warnings with Aroclors in them in 1955? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. THE WITNESS: I did not. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Look at the last document. It is a 1954 document attached between Barrett and Kelly again ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47030 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 89 where it talks about -- the letter indicates that Kelly was going through the files of Ruabon and Newport. Who are Ruabon and Newport? Do you know? A. Let me interrupt. My copy is the next to the last page. Q. Yes. A. Ruabon is a city in Wales and Newport is another city in Wales. They are two separate Monsanto locations. MR. GOUTMAN: Excuse me. If I can just correct the record, the document that you are referring to is not from Kelly, but it is from Hamer, as you can see at the bottom of the page that you have in your hand. MR. MC CLAIN: I'm sorry. You are right. I was looking at the next document as being from Kelly. It is from Hamer. From Hamer to Barrett, copies to Hardy, Morgan, and Newman. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Do you see there where it discusses that in the 1938 report, "Liver damage is of course the outstanding effect and of the various hydrocarbons tested, diphenyl gave evidence as being the most ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47031 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 90 toxic"? Do you see that? A. Yes, I see that. Yes. Q. And then finally on the last page do you see at the top of the page it says, "We do not know what the maximum allowable concentration of Aroclor is." This is the correspondence dated February 12, 1954, between Kelly and Newman. From Kelly to Newman. A. I see that. Q. And it says, "We have run animals for about 60 days at seven times this" -- I'm sorry. Starting with the sentence beginning, "One milligram per cubic meter has been set up. We have run animals for about 60 days at seven times this and found some liver damage. We are now running this at a lower level." Do you see that? A. I do. Q. Did you ever discuss with Dr. Kelly his concerns about liver damage during this time period? A . No . Q. Did he share with you, during this time period, any concerns about the workers under your direction and control being at risk for liver damage? A. No . ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47032 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 91 MR. MC CLAIN: Why don't we take our lunch. (Deposition recessed) BY MR., MC CLAIN: Q. Back on the record. Were you familiar with the compound known as Prydraul, P Y D R A U L? A . I'm familiar with the trademark that applies to many mixtures, sir, yes. Q. And was that a product of Monsanto? A . Yes . Q And was it a PCB? A . It contains PCB as one of many ingredients. MR. MC CLAIN: Let's mark this as Papageorge Exhibit 8. (Indicating). (The above-referred-to document was marked as Papageorge Exhibit 8 for identification) BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Do you know Dr. Lehman and Dr. Zwickey? MR. GOUTMAN: Are you going to let him read the document? BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. First I want to ask that question. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47033 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 92 A. I do not recognize those names. Q. Now you can read it. A. I have read the document. Q. Cellulube, was that a Monsanto product? A . No . Q. That's all the questions I have on that document. This will be Papageorge Exhibit 9. (Indicating) (The above - referred-to document was marked as Papageorge Exhibit 9 for identification) BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. I'm showing you what we have marked as Papageorge Exhibit 9. A. I have read the exhibit. Q. Was Allied Chemical a company that you were familiar with? A. Yes. Q. Theywere a customer of Monsanto. A. Yes. Q. Did you ever have contact with any persons at Allied Chemical? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Overly broad. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47034 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 93 You can answer. THE WITNESS: Eventually, yes. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Do you know the circumstances which led Dr. Kelly to instruct Mr. Benavoglia that he would give Allied Chemical the following information regarding Aroclor 1254? A. I do not. Q. Why do they use Aroclor 1254 at Allied Chemical? A. I don't know. Q. Were you aware in 1960 that it was Dr. Kelly's view that Aroclor 1264 is capable of causing - MR. GOUTMAN: 1254? BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Let me start again. Did you know that it was Dr. Kelly's view that Aroclor 1254 was, "Capable of causing systemic injury by the inhalation of fumes, especially at elevated temperatures or by absorption through the skin following repeated or continuous contac t"? A. Yes. Q. You knew that that was a concern about . exposure to Aroclor 1254. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47035 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 94 A. Yes. Q. It goes on to say, "There is noquestion but that if the material is heated the vapors must be exhausted without allowing the employee to breathe them. 11 You understood that in 1960? A. Yes. Q. "Thesymptoms after exposure consist of headache, nausea and, after more severe exposure, signs of liver damage occur. This is evidenced by enlarged liver and jaundice." Did you understand that by 1960? A. Yes. Q. Did you ever witness, in your own employees, headache, nausea, and signs of liver damage from exposure to PCBs? A. Never. Q. Did it occur to you in 1960 that whatever the information contained on the label was not sufficient to inform persons using your PCBs in plant settings, that it was not sufficient to protect the workers at those plants? A. I don't agree, sir. It was sufficient. If you didn't get it on your skin, didn't breathe it, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47036 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 95 1 didn't eat it, that's sufficient. 2 Q. Allied Chemical was a long-time customer of 3 Monsanto, were they not? 4 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 5 the question. 6 THE WITNESS: For what products? 7 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 8 Q. For 1254, Aroclor 1254. 9 A. They certainly were customers of 1254. I 10 don't know about the long-time description. 11 Q. Well, they would have been seeing these labels 12 that you have told me about come on their deliveries 13 of 1254; am I right? 14 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection as to this 15 witness testifying as to what Allied Chemical 16 may or may not have seen. 17 Subject to that objection, if you have 18 any personal knowledge, please tell us. 19 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 20 Q. Is it possible that they didn't see the 21 labels ? 22 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Again, calls 23 for speculation. 24 THE WITNESS: It is possible. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47037 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 96 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Calls for speculation. You can answer. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Answer it if you can. A. I don't know enough about the arrangements made with Allied, whether they had already received products with labels on it or were contemplating ordering and using, so I can't answer. I don't know. Q. Do you know why Dr. Kelly felt it was necessary to add this additional information if the instructions on the label were sufficient to protect workers ? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. THE WITNESS: I don't know. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. You don't disagree with any of this information, do you? A. No, I don't. Q. And that would be good information for a person utilizing Aroclor 1254 to have; am I right? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of the question as to the person utilizing Aroclor 1254 . ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47038 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 97 THE WITNESS: I have problems, sir, visualizing a person with an 8th grade education understanding this as distinguished from a medical doctor getting this information and passing it onto his company's personnel. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Was Jack Benavoglia a medical doctor? A. No, he's a Monsanto sales representative. Q. Is there any reference in this document to Mr. Benavoglia giving it to the Medical Director of Allied Chemical? A. The last sentence tells me a lot. It says, it asks, Mr. Benavoglia to ask Allied Chemical's medicine medical personnel to contact Monsanto's medical personnel, so doctor is talking to doctor or industrial hygienist is talking to industrial hygienist. That's the best communication regarding this type of information. Q. Did it appear on any labels to have the industrial hygiene personnel at any plant contact Dr. Kelly regarding use of Aroclor? Do you remember that ever being on labels? A. That kind of information, sir, is like saying continue breathing. That is understood by industry. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47039 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 98 Q My question was was it on the label? A . No . MR. MC CLAIN: This document we will mark as Papageorge Exhibit 10. (Indicating). (The above - referred-to document was marked as Papageorge Exhibit 10 for identification) THE WITNESS: I have read the exhibit. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Did you know Hexagon Laboratories? A. Yes. Q. What was their business? A. I associate them with manufacturers and sellers of water treating chemicals. Q. Did you become aware that in 1961 they had an incident involving exposure of their employees to hot Aroclor 1248? A. In 19 61, no. Q. Did you know about this afterwards? A. Yes. Q. In what circumstance did you become aware of it? A. In early 1970, when I assumed the job of monitoring the PCB environmental issue, this is one ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047040 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 99 of the pieces of information that I was brought up to date on by medical department personnel. Q. Was the information contained in Exhibit 9 in that same category? Were you made aware of it in 1970? The sale - A. I don't remember this one. (Indicating) Q. When you say "this one", you are talking about Exhibit 9 . A. Yes. Q. You do remember Exhibit 10. What is it that you remember about it? A. I don't recall the subject matter that raised this point, but it was shown to me, as best I recall, as an example of even a non-medical person can be a good communications effort between the supplier, Monsanto, and the customer. That's the context in which it was brought up. Q. Were there other reports,other than this hepatitis report by Hexagon Laboratories, of employees or persons exposed to Aroclors developing hepatitis or other liver-related problems? A. I don't recall any. Q. Certainly we have seendocuments from Dr. Kelly where he has laid out that as a possibility. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47041 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 100 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection. Ob j ection to the form of the question. The document says develops symptoms of hepatitis. Are you referring to something else? BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. In the previous documents we have seen several of them where Dr. Kelly has raised the issue of hepatitis, liver damage or j aundice, have we not? MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of the ques tion. THE WITNESS: Yes, but it is emphasized, those documents also emphasize, continuous and high levels of exposure. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. The documents will speak for themselves; all I'm saying is that we have seen documents with the words hepatitis, liver damage and j aundice, have we not? A. Yes. Q. Do you know of any other documents or have you seen any other documents where it was reported that persons were exposed to hot Aroclor vapors and developed hepatitis? MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection. Obj ec tion to ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47042 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 101 your use of the word "other". It merely says that they developed symptoms of hepatitis. It is misleading. You can answer it if you can. THE WITNESS: I have not seen any other documents that refer to these kinds of symptoms, no. (Indicating) BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Do you see where it says, "Since we are dealing with a highly toxic material at high temperatures and since these failures cannot be prevented, it is felt that a more thorough and c1early written description of the hazards be described under Safety of Handling. Also the antidote and the first aid treatment if any be included. I certainly would be interested in this information if available . " Were you made aware that customers were desirous of more information than was currently being put on the label in the '61 time period? MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection. Your use of the word "customers", are you referring to somebody else other than the Hexagon Laboratories? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47043 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 102 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes, I am. I am referring to the fact that in the previous exhibit, Exhibit Number 9, also asks to provide more information to Allied Chemical and Dye Corporation than was provided on the label . MR. GOUTMAN: That wasn't your question. You are saying the customers, your question said that customers were contacting Monsanto regarding additional information, and thus far we have seen Hexagon Laboratories. I just object to the use of the plural customers. If the question is whether he' s aware that Hexagon Laboratories contacted Monsanto, I think we can stipulate that they did contact Monsanto. MR. MC CLAIN: Can you read back my question? (The last question was read back by the Court Reporter) MR. GOUTMAN: You may answer subj ec t to my obj ection. THE WITNESS: The question implies that that request as exemplified by this Hexagon letter. Exhibit 10, that that information is expected on the label. This letter is talking ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47044 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B PAPAGEORGE 103 about Safety of Handling, which is a page or a paragraph, depending on how much material is covered, in the sales brochures, handouts, other methods of communicating other than the 1abel. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. That's a good clarification. Let me clarify it then. Were there reports that you became aware of in your time with Monsanto where either the labels or the handouts that were given to customers were not adequate to inform them about the risks inherent in the use of Aroclors? A. I believe they were adequate. Q. No, that wasn't my question. Were there reports to you that customers did not feel they were adequate? A. This is the only example that I remember. (Indicating) Q. Do you remember the Bent Glass Company here in St. Louis? A. Will you say that again? Bent? Q. BENT. A. No, I don't. MR. MC CLAIN: This will be Papageorge ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47045 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 104 Exhibit 11. (Indicating). (The above - ref erred-to document was marked as Papageorge Exhibit 11 for identification) THE WITNESS: I have read the exhibit. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Do you see where there was an epidemic of chloracne at the International Bent Glass Company? A. That's what it states here. Q. And that they were using a paint manufactured by Drakenfeld of New York City? A. I see that, yes. Q. And do you see where Kelly writes, "We may have to warn users similar to Drakenfeld about the hazards"? Do you see that? A. I do. Q. Was it ever discussed with you that Kelly thought that additional warnings were required to users of paint? A. Not for this Aroclor 4465, no. Q. Well, in regard to what products were you made aware of it? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047046 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 105 the question. THE WITNESS: I understood your question to be addressing a problem with Aroclor 4465. This is not a PCB, so I don't know how - BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. What is it? A. It is a terphenyl. Q. It is a terphenyl? A. Yes. Q. Is the chloracne caused by terphenyls different than the chloracne caused by PCBs? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Calls for a medical conclusion. THE WITNESS: I have seen no reference whatever with chloracne associated with chlorinated terphenyls, so I don't know. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. This is the first time you have seen one? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of the question. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Is this not a chlorinated terphenyl? A. Yes, but I can't help but notice the use of the word "presumably" caused. That is not definite ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47047 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 106 proof. Q. So you discount this letter. MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: I don't know. When you say "discount", you mean I threw it in the waste basket? No. It did raise some questions, but the answers were never available. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. When did you see this letter first? A. Early 1970? Q. And for what purpose were you looking at it? A. That was part of my session with the medical department personnel to bring me up to date on these kinds of situations that might be related to the Aroclor product line. Q. And how long of a session was this that you had? A. It was concentrated for the six weeks in January and February, and then it was -- it would bring up sessions on through to about June or July of 1970 . Q. Who participated in those meetings? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047048 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 107 A. Elmer Wheeler was the lead tutor. Dr. Kelly participated. And the industrial hygienist? Q. What was his name? A. Jack Barrett. That's all that comes to mind now. Q. Were you ever introduced to Garrett Schepers? A. I'm sorry. Garrett who? Q. Schepers. Dr. Garrett Schepers. A. I don't recognize that name at all. MR. MC CLAIN: Who are you? I have not been introduced. MR. DAVIDSON: I'm from Monsanto. I haven't been introduced to you either. I'm Gerard Davidson, I'm an attorney, and I represent Monsanto. MR. MC CLAIN: I would appreciate it if you don't laugh in the middle of my questions. MR. DAVIDSON: That's a name out of the past that I'm not surprised you dredged up. MR. MC CLAIN: I would appreciate if you would keep your amusement to yourself. MR. DAVIDSON: I'm sure it didn't make it on the record. MR. MC CLAIN: It made it into my ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047049 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 108 hearing. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Now, at this meeting, at this series of meetings that you say was kind of a tutorial for you? A. Yes. Q. Do you know why it was felt that you needed a tutorial on the subject? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: You will have to ask the people that invited me to attend. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Who did invite youto attend? A. Dr. Kelly and Elmer Wheeler, and they are both deceased. I don't know why they -- Q. Then how would Iask them? A. Well - MR. GOUTMAN: Don't answer that question. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Did anyone explain to you why you were invited to attend? A. Not in so many words, sir. It was a matter of I was new on the job and they were close to the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047050 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 109 subject, and I started with that group, rather than with the research group or the marketing group or - - it just fell in place without any particular plan. Q. Were there any wri11en materials given to you? A. There were copies of wri11en materials, yes, Q. Were they some of the documents that you have identified here today? MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection. Vague. THE WITNESS: I don't recall if these specific documents were part of the looseleaf notebook that was prepared for me, or whether they came up during the discussion where someone would go to the library or the files and get me a copy. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. So they made up a looseleaf notebook for you o f documents to look at. A . Yes . Q. Did you retain that, in your possession? A . I did. Q. And was it left with the company when you retired? A. Yes . Q. 1986 . ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47051 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 110 A . Yes . Q. And how would it be identified? A . Oh - - Q. How was it identified? A . When you said when I left with the transferred my files to my successor in 1976. I don't know where they ended up. Q. And who was your successor in 1976? A. Cole Weber. J.C. Weber. Q. And have you ever seen that notebook since you gave it to Mr. Weber in 1976? A. No. Q. What else was in it? A. Sir -- Q. I know it was a long time ago. A. I just don't remember. I just don'tremember the details. Q. If we see any other documents that were in that book, would you let me know? A. Yes. If I remember them. Q. You have done it so far, and I appreciate it, when you say you saw this in '70 or '71. A. Yes, but that doesn't mean that I remember it as being part of the book. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47052 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 111 Q. Let's go back. Any of these documents that have been marked as exhibits, were they part of the book? A. Not that I recall. Q. Were you made aware in 1970 that there had been a report in the mid sixties of environmental contamination by PCBs? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: You say in the mid sixties? BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Yes . A . I feel we are playing a bit of a guessing game here . I don't kn ow which one you are referring to. Are you referring to the Swedish s tudy ? Q. Yes . A. That was 1 966 or thereabout s . Late '66. Q. November 2 8, 1966 . A . Yes . MR. MC CLAIN: We will mark that as Papageorge Exhibit 12. (Indicating). (The above - referred-to document was marked as Papageorge Exhibit 12 for ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47053 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 112 identification) BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Go ahead. A. I have seen this document before and read it. Q. When was the first time that you read it? A. Early 1970. During my tutorial sessions. Q. And was this November 1966 letter addressed to Monsanto Europe? A. Yes. Q. Who are Rising & Strand? A. As I understood it, they were sales representatives of Monsanto in Sweden. Q. Do you see here where it says "these," referring to some studies at the University of Stockholm, "these" have revealed that a group of products called Polychlorinated Bi-Phenols - PCB for short - accumulated in certain organs in animals"? A. Can you help me find that? Is it on the first page? Q. Yes, it is in that first paragraph. A. Oh. All right. Q. Right next to the handwriting. A. I see it, yes. Q. And that they are said to be related to DDT ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47054 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 113 1 and equally poisonous. 2 A. That's what it states. 3 Q. And the last page, if you vfill look back 4 there, it says, "I suppose there is no doubt that 5 what has been termed Polychlorinated Bi-Phenols is 6 equal to Aroclor." 7 A. I see that. 8 Q. "There is also no doubt that the published 9 facts will cause considerable unrest in several 10 quarters. We probably will have to have Aroclor 11 registered with the Swedish Board of Poisonous 12 Substances and the industry will have to be 13 particularly careful in handling the material." 14 Do you see that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And that, "The problem insome casesof course 17 may be the disposal of used material." 18 A. I see that. 19 Q. On the first page, one lastthing,and then 20 I'm going to ask you about your meetings in '70, "PCB 21 is broken down considerably slower than DDT and gives 22 rise to danger of liver and skin". 23 MR. GOUTMAN: You are at the bottom of 24 the first page? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047055 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 114 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. The first sentence of the last paragraph. THE WITNESS: I see that, yes. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. In 1970 what type of meetings did you have regarding this report or what were the discussions about this report? MR. GOUTMAN: About this document? MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. THE WITNESS: This document was shown to me as the first notice that Monsanto representatives received regarding the possibility that polychlorinated biphenyls were being found by a laboratory, and the fact that in this memo the spelling was Bi-Phenols created some confusion regarding the true identity of the material being described. That was what this particular letter did. It was the first notice Monsanto had regarding the environmental issue with PCBs. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. What were you told -- strike that. Based on your meetings in 1970, were you able to determine that Monsanto did anything in ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47056 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 115 1967, as an example, to determine whether or not these reports applied to Aroclor? A. They did many things. The addressee of this particular Exhibit, Mr. David Wood -- Q. Yes. Who was he? A. He was a Monsanto marketing representative in Europe. He, personally, went to Stockholm and met with the investigators at the University of Stockholm. While there he got some information regarding the analytical procedures used by that laboratory. He shared that information with the Monsanto researchers in St. Louis. The analytical chemists in St. Louis then launched a program of procuring the latest instruments for determining PCBs in samples. They took the procedure sent to them from Sweden and applied it to the US samples and became familiar with the whole process of how complex it could be, how difficult it was to get a reliable answer, so they went -- they launched really a learning program regarding the analytical procedure and its -- the validity of its answers. Q. Were there any steps taken in 1967 to prevent any further environmental release of PCBs? A. In 1967? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47057 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 116 Q. Yes. A. No, because there wasn't any evidence to indicate that in truth these were PCBs in 1967. Q. So the answer is no, there were no steps taken in 1967. A. There was - - MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. The answer is what he gave you. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Were there any steps taken? MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ec tion Asked and answered. You can answe r again, sir. THE WITNESS: No steps were taken because of the lack of evidence to take the proper s teps. What do you do without information? BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. I move that his answer be stricken after- the word "no." Do you know whose handwriting this is in the margin, by any chance? That first page. Is it recognizable to you? A. No . ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047058 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 117 Q. Why don't we just mark this so we have a good copy in the record. It is the same document, I believe. (Indicating). (The above - referred-to document was marked as Papageorge Exhibit 13 for identification) BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Is this the same document? A. It appears to be. Q. But for the handwritten notations in the margin. A. That's one difference, and of course the type appears to be different. It could well be the reproduction process, but I also note that these reference numbers at the bottom of the page are not identical to the -- Q. No, I think they came from different productions, but I'm just trying to determine which copies I have and which ones I don't. Are these the same? Is the text of the document the same? A. It appears to be, yes. Q. But the document that we have marked as Exhibit 12 appears to be a different copy of the same document. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47059 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 118 A. I don't know how to define "a different copy." The reproduction process distorted some of the printing. Q. And there is handwriting in the margin from some source. A. Yes. Q. And underlying in the document that we have marked as Exhibit 12; is that right? A. Yes. Q. And that's not on Exhibit 13. MR. GOUTMAN: These documents speak for themselves, Ken. MR. MC CLAIN: I'm j us t asking the witness if he can determine that. MR. GOUTMAN: He's not an expert in that field. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Were you aware that before this report was released in Sweden that there had been a presentation of the report in the New Scientist magazine? A. I was aware, as best I remember, of a single column article summarizing this study. 11 was not a formal, scientific report from a laboratory. Q. Was anyone f rom Monsanto at the J ens en 1ec ture ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047060 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 119 at the Wenner-Gren Centre meeting in Stockholm in November of 1966? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: I don't know. MR. MC CLAIN: Let's mark this next document as Papageorge Exhibit 14. (Indicating) (The above - referred-to document was marked as Papageorge Exhibit 14 for identification) MR. GOUTMAN: I would just note for the record that this document is incomplete. MR. MC CLAIN: This is the way it was produced to us, so if you have a complete version I would like to have it. MR. GOUTMAN: I don't know how it was produced to you - MR. MC CLAIN: I'm telling you this is how it was produced to us. MR. GOUTMAN: There you go again interrupting me. I'm just telling you that you are showing this witness an incomplete document. It ends with a colon. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047061 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 120 MR. MC CLAIN: I'm showing you the document that was produced to us. If you have a completed copy I would prefer to use it myself. MR. GOUTMAN: You didn't tell me or call me in advance to tell me that you needed a complete copy. I probably could have done something about it back in Philadelphia. MR. MC CLAIN: I assumed that you didn't have a complete copy or you would have produced it to me. MR. GOUTMAN: I don't know that I didn't produce it to you, sir. MR . MC CLAIN: This is what I have got. MR . GOUTMAN: I understand. I'm just noting for the record that it's not a complete document. THE WITNESS: I have read the exhibit. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Are you familiar with this document - A. I am not. Q. -- or the lecture that it purports to report? A. I have not seen this before. (Indicating) Q. Were you aware, on page two of the document it ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047062 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 121 talks about studies that had been done on PCBs, Greenburg and Mayer, '39, about the death of three workers from liver diseases? Do you see that report? Second page. Top. Greenburg, Mayer. A. I see the reference to it. I don't recall the authors that are mentioned there. I do remember a report involving polychlorinated napthylamines. Q. What about Wedol, Haller and Benton in their '42 report regarding animals exposed to PCB? Were you familiar with that report? A. I don't recognize those authors. Q. Do you see the Paribok reference in that same paragraph from '55? A. I do. Q. Reporting fatty degeneration of the liver from exposure to PCBs. A. I see it. Q. Miller injected 69 milligrams of PCB subcutaneously in guinea pigs. A. I see that. Q. And that death occurred among those animals in 11 to 29 days. A. That's what itreports. Q. Were you familiar with that study? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047063 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 122 A. I don't recognize any of those. Q. And then theytalk about tests done by McLaughlin in 1964 on eggs and exposure to PCBs had the highest order of toxicity. Do you see that? A. I do. Q. And how it had a no hatch level among the chickens when exposed to PCBs? A. I see that. MR. MC CLAIN: Let's mark this next document as Papageorge Exhibit 15. (Indicating). (The above-referred-to document was marked as Papageorge Exhibit 15 for identification) BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. This is a letter from Dr. Kelly to Mr. Wood, is it? A. Yes. MR. GOUTMAN: Have you had a chance to read it? THE WITNESS: Not yet. I have read the exhibit. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Do you see in the fourth paragraph of the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047064 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 123 first page, "We have been receiving quite a few communications from our customers, but the most critical one is NCR, who are very much involved with their carbonless carbon paper." A. I see that. Q. That had PCBsin it, did it not? A. What had? Q. Carbonless carbon paper. A. Oh, yes. Q. And in the last paragraph do you see that it says, "The consensus in St. Louis is that while Monsanto would like to keep in the background in this problem, we don't see how we will be able to in the United States. We feel our customers, especially NCR, may ask us for some sort of data concerning the safety of these residues in humans." A. I see that. Q. Do you knowwhether NCR, in fact, asked for that data? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: No. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Do you remember there being some concern ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047065 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 124 raised about PCBs in the British wildlife? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. What time f rame ? MR. MC CLAIN: '67. THE WITNESS: I was not aware of it at the time, no. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Are you aware that Monsanto was aware of it in 1967? A . Not at that time. Q. When did you become aware of it? A . Early 1970. Q. Same time during your sessions with Dr. Kelly and others? A. Yes, plus a trip to the British Isles and visited these places. MR. MC CLAIN: Let's mark this next document as Papageorge Exhibit 16. (The above - referred-to document was marked as Papageorge Exhibit 16 for identification) MR. GOUTMAN: Do you want him to read this entire article? MR. MC CLAIN: No. If he wants to. It ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047066 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 125 is up to him. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q You are familiar with this article? A Yes, I am. Q You became familiar with it in 1970? A Yes . Q. If you look on the last page it gives thanks to Monsanto for supplying samples of polychlorobiphenyl resins. A. I do see that, yes. Q. And let me show you Exhibit 17, what we will mark as Papageorge Exhibit 17. (Indicating). (The above - referred-to document was marked as Papageorge Exhibit 17 for identification) BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Who is Gene Wilde? A. Mr. Wilde was a marketing representative with Monsanto in the United States. Q. It says. Dr. Kelly writes, "Frankly, if I knew what to do or where to attack the problem of polychlorobiphenyl compounds in British wildlife, I would do it. As it is, however, I think the initiative is out of our hands. We have to wait to ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47067 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 126 see how big a problem will be created for us by the conservationists in England." Do you see that? A . I do. Q. Do you remember talking to Dr.Kelly that he thought this was a problem being created by conservationists in England? A. I never talked to Dr. Kelly about that. Q. Do you know why Dr. Kelly felt that this was a problem being created by British conservationists? A. No, I don't. Q. British conservationists weren'tspreading PCBs through the woods of England, were they? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Don't answer the question. Argumentative. MR. MC CLAIN: As far as you know. MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Don't answer the question. MR. MC CLAIN: Were conservationists in England spreading PCBs through the woods of England? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Don't answer that question. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047068 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 127 1 MR. MC CLAIN: I am asking him a 2 question. 3 MR. GOUTMAN: I know you are asking him 4 a question. 5 MR. MC CLAIN: And you a re instructing 6 him not to answer that question ? 7 MR. GOUTMAN: Yes. 8 MR. MC CLAIN: On what b as i s ? 9 MR. GOUTMAN: It is a f acetious question 10 and he is not going to answer i t. If you want 11 to get a court order go ahead. 12 BY MR MC CLAIN: 13 Q. I will. 14 In what sense would British 15 conservationists be causing Monsanto problems with 16 the PCB issue in England? If you know. 17 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. This is a 18 document of someone else and you are asking him 19 to speculate as to what might have been going 20 through another individual, indeed a deceased 21 individual's head, and it is an improper 22 question. 23 You may answer if you can. 24 THE WITNESS: I don't know. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47069 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 128 BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. You went to England in1970. A. Yes. Q. Were theconservationists in England troublesome? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. You may answer. THE WITNESS: I didn't talk to any conservationists. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. As far as you could tell, have they spread PCBs through the woods of England? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Don't answer the question. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Now, are you following your counsel's advice - - MR. GOUTMAN: Don't answer that question. I have instructed him not to answer. He is not answering. You don't have to go any further than that. MR. MC CLAIN: Well, I think I have got to ask him whether he is following your advice. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47070 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 129 1 MR. GOUTMAN: He is following my advice. 2 MR. MC CLAIN: Okay. 3 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 4 Q. The Risebrough - 5 A. I call it Risebrough. 6 Q. The Risebrough, RI S EBROUGH. Are we 7 talking about the same one? 8 A. I believe that's the way it is spelled. 9 Robert Risebrough. 10 Q. Did you ever come toknow that individual? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And how? 13 A. Well, I went to the University of California 14 at Berkeley campus and met with him. That was my 15 initial introduction. 16 Q. Why did you meet with him? 17 A. To be brought up to date on his studies with 18 PCBs and the pelicans off the shore of California, 19 southern California. 20 Q. What had he found? 21 A. He had found that thepelicans could not 22 reproduce because their eggs were either without 23 shells or had soft she11s, and he attributed 24 initially to PCBs and DDT and later decided it was ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47071 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 130 1 DDT that was the cause. 2 Q. Initially he published that it was PCBs that 3 were the cause? 4 MR. GOUTMAN: That's not what he said. 5 Obj ec tion. 6 THE WITNESS: His initial report 7 mentioned both the presence of DDT and PCBs in 8 the analyses, and he went further to, in a way, 9 speculate as to what the presence of these two 10 types of chemicals were doing to the 11 hatchability of the eggs. 12 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 13 Q. And did his reports cause concern for Monsanto 14 about the environmental impact and its sale of PCBs 15 were having on the ecosystem? 16 A. Well, it certainly was brought to Monsanto's 17 attention and stimulated Monsanto to institute some 18 studies using chickens as the test bird. 19 Q. Did Monsanto receive pre-publication copies of 20 the studies before they appeared in the scientific 21 press? 22 MR. GOUTMAN: What studies? I'm sorry. 23 MR. MC CLAIN: Of the PCB studies by 24 Risebrough. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47072 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 131 1 THE WITNESS: No. 2 MR. MC CLAIN: Let's mark this as 3 Papageorge Exhibit 18. (Indicating) 4 (The above - referred-to document was 5 marked as Papageorge Exhibit 18 for 6 identification) 7 MR. MC CLAIN: Actually, are you 8 familiar with this article? 9 MR. GOUTMAN: Take your time and review 10 i t. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 MR. GOUTMAN: Is the question is he 13 familiar with this? 14 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. 15 THE WITNESS: I recall seeing an 16 article, it is either this copy or something 17 quite similar. It has been so long ago that I 18 don't recall all of the details. I don't 19 recall this handwritten note on the last page, 20 but in summary it looks like something that I 21 have seen before. 22 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 23 Q. Did you know Scott Tucker? 24 A. Yes. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47073 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 132 1 Q. How did you know him? 2 A. He was the research chemist who led the 3 analytical effort regarding the PCB studies for 4 Monsanto. 5 Q. Was he a competent scientist? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And did he come up with the analytical methods 8 which Monsanto relied upon to determine compounds of 9 PCBs in environmental samples? 10 MR. GOTJTMAN: Objection to the form of 11 the question. 12 THE WITNESS: Will you help me with the 13 words did he come up with? 14 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 15 Q. Did he develop them? 16 A. He took the procedures used by the University 17 of Stockholm and in a way, I'm going to use the 18 expression fine tuned them, so he did play a big role 19 in this, but don't underestimate the contribution of 20 his team members. He had others working with him. 21 And they all contributed to this knowledge that was 22 accumulating as they wrestled with this problem. 23 Q. But Tucker was the point man? 24 A. He was the principal chemist assigned the task ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47074 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 133 1 on the bench, so to speak. His supervisor, because 2 of Monsanto's organization, would be considered the 3 point man. 4 Q. But when you thought about who was in charge 5 of the project it was Tucker? 6 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 7 the question. 8 THE WITNESS: No, I thought Dr. Keller 9 as the guy who spoke for that group, and he 10 would assign Dr. Tucker to execute whatever 11 activities or programs were required to support 12 their activities. 13 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 14 Q. Let's go back to those. 15 Confidential, not to be released until 16 published. Do you know how this document came into 17 Monsanto's hands before it was published? 18 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 19 the question. 20 THE WITNESS: I do not. 21 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 22 Q. Were there contacts with Risebrough regarding 23 his study before it was published that you know of? 24 A. I know that Dr. Risebrough was sent samples of ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047075 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 134 1 PCBs to use in his laboratory as standards for his 2 analytical methods. 3 Q. Were there not contacts made with Dr. 4 Risebrough to attempt to persuade him not to 5 implicate PCBs as the cause of the damage that he wa s 6 finding? 7 A. I don't know that at all. 8 Q. You are unaware of any such contacts? 9 A. No . 10 MR. MC CLAIN: Let's mark this as 11 Papageorge Exhibit 19. (Indicating) 12 (The above - referred-to document was 13 marked as Papageorge Exhibit 19 for 14 identification) 15 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 16 Q. Sir? 17 A . I have scanned the exhibit. 18 Q. Are you familiar with this document? 19 A. It seems familiar. 20 Q. It says, " During the last 15 years" 21 MR . GOUTMAN: Where are you? 22 MR . MC CLAIN: First sentence 23 MR. GOUTMAN: Mine says, "For 24 15 years" . ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047076 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 135 1 MR. MC CLAIN: What did I say? 2 MR. GOUTMAN: During. 3 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 4 Q. "For the last 15 years there has been growing 5 world-wide concern regarding the persistence of 6 chlorinated pesticides (particularly DDT) and their 7 universal presence in man, food, animals, fish, 8 birds, air, water, and soil." 9 Were you aware or were the people at 10 Monsanto aware during that 15 year time period about 11 the world-wide growing concern discussed there? 12 A. Generally, yes. 13 Q. Did Monsanto make DDT? 14 A . No . 15 Q. Who did? 16 A. The principal manufacturer was a company in 17 California whose name started with an "M", which used 18 to be confused with Monsanto. Now the name escapes 19 me . 20 Q. If you think about it, please let me know. 21 It goes on to discuss in this document, 22 I think it can be dated by a paragraph on the last 23 page, it says as of this date, October 1969 on the 24 last page that I have here, page seven. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47077 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 136 1 A. I see that. 2 Q. So it is approximately October of 1969, I 3 guess, it discusses PCB studies that had been done 4 some of which we have looked at already. 5 In 1970, when you began your work as 6 Manager of Environmental Control, did you take it 7 upon yourself to review the studies that are 8 discussed here on page two or were they discussed 9 with you at your seminar that you told us about? 10 MR. GOUTMAN: On page two? 11 MR. MC CLAIN: I'm sorry. Pages one and 12 going on to page two. 13 MR. GOUTMAN: Where it says, 11 In the 14 last six months"? Is that what you are 15 referring to? 16 MR . MC CLAIN: Yes . 17 MR . GOUTMAN: Up through h? Is that what 18 you mean? 19 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes . 20 MR. GOUTMAN: I'm sorry, just so I'm 21 clear, as of 1970 did. he familiarize himself 22 with those instances enumerated in a through h? 23 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes . 24 THE WITNESS: Yes . ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047078 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 137 1 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 2 Q. And other than the seminar how did you do 3 that? 4 A. Held weekly meetings with the group of 5 individuals within Monsanto that were involved with 6 PCBs, either in research, medical, engineering, 7 marketing, whatever. Just sort of a standing 8 committee on PCBs. And I, because of my new 9 assignment, ended up being the titular chairman, so 10 to speak, and we would all compare notes as to what 11 we heard, what we needed to know, what projects would 12 be appropriate to sponsor, and so on, so that took 13 place initially virtually every week, and then it 14 spread out to every two or three weeks. It depended 15 really on the level of activity and the availability 16 of any news to be shared by the group. 17 Q. Let me divert for a minute. Did you ever have 18 any contact with a company called Gustin Bacon? 19 MR. GOUTMAN: Did you meaning this 20 witness? 21 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. 22 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 23 Q. A company called Gus tin Bacon or CertainTeed? 24 A. Did I have any personal contact? No . ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47079 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 138 1 Q. Did you have any contact as a company that you 2 know about with Gustin Bacon? 3 A. Not Gustin Bacon. 4 Q. CertainTeed? 5 A. CertainTeed, I have seen their name in print 6 in a listing, but I don't recall the specifics. 7 Q. What about a company called Sonneborn? 8 A. Sonneborn? That rings a faint bell again, but 9 I had no personal contacts. 10 Q. They made a caulk compound. 11 A. That I don't remember. 12 Q. How about a company called ChemRex? 13 A. No, I don't know them. 14 Q. Did you ever have any contact with U.S. 15 Mineral Company? 16 A. U.S. Mineral. 17 MR. ROUX: If there is such a company 18 by that name. 19 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 20 Q. United States Mineral Products Company? 21 A. That does not ring a bell, no. 22 Q. Back to this document, it says here on page 23 two, "After investigation - not complete in all cases 24 - the committee has concluded: ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047080 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 139 "That the identification of PCBs as contaminates of the environment is certain." Was that your conclusion in 1970? A. Yes, that was my conclusion. This document is dated before that, though. Q. I know that. A. Okay. Q. It says here, "Data available at present indicate that PCBs may be 'moderately toxic' to man." MR. GOUTMAN: Where are you? MR. MC CLAIN: Third page. MR. GOUTMAN: If you can just tell us where you are, it would help. We will agree with you that that's what it says. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Was that your view as of 1970? A. I had no reason to believe otherwise, yes. Q. It says, "There have been a limitednumber of cases of occupational disease where workmen have been exposed to excessive vapor inhalation or repeated and prolonged skin contact with subsequent development of skin manifestations '(chloracne)' or more serious involvement of the liver and kidneys." ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47081 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 140 1 Did I read that correctly? 2 A . Yes , you did. 3 Q. Was that your understanding as of 1970? 4 A . Yes . 5 Q. Was there any effort made to alert users or 6 persons that had been sold PCB containing products 7 that PCBs were moderately toxic to man? 8 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. That's a 9 compound question. Could you please break it down? 10 MR. MC CLAIN: How would you suggest? 11 MR. GOUTMAN: Well, you say, as I 12 understand it, you asked about our customers and our 13 customers' customers. 14 MR. MC CLAIN: No, not necessarily. 15 MR. GOUTMAN: Maybe I misunderstood your 16 question. 17 MR. MC CLAIN: I understand your 18 obj ec tion. 19 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 20 Q. What effort was made to alert people that were 21 using products containing Aroclors to the fact that 22 PCBs may be moderately toxic to man? 23 A. This was done through the decades that PCBs 24 were sold. This is not a new conclusion. It was ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047082 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 141 relayed in many ways: Through product 1iterature, through the field spokesmen, representatives that called on the customer, with handouts, with telephone and letter communications be tween Monsanto' a professionals in our medical department and their counterparts in the customer's offices. It was an ongoing bit of communication. I don't know what else to add. Q. Do you recall in these, in any of these handouts, in the 19 6 9 or '70 time period, was there any indication about the environmental contamination problem that was being discussed was put into your safety handouts ? A. I'm confused. MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ec tion to the term "safety handouts". BY MR . MC CLAIN: Q Let me see if I can rephrase. you came on board -- In 1970, when A. Yes. Q. -- and you reviewed the handouts that were being given with Aroclors. Am I right? A. Yes . Q. Was there any mention made in those handouts ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047083 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 142 1 in 1969 about environmental contamination? 2 A. We went even further. We sent a specific 3 letter addressed to the president and purchasing 4 agent of the customers. 5 Q. In 1969 you did? 6 A. There was a letter in '69, March of '69, and 7 then there was another letter in February of '70? 8 Q. To whom? 9 A. Customers of Monsanto on record for at least 10 three years and more. 11 Q. So that letter would have gone to, assuming 12 that CertainTeed/Gustin Bacon was a customer, 13 Sonneborn was a customer, as an example, those would 14 have received letters from you? 15 A. Yes. Definitely. 16 Q. And what would those letters have said? 17 A. They would have mentioned the fact that the 18 studies in Sweden were reporting the presence of PCBs 19 and what type of PCBs they were, and there was some 20 mention of the products that contain these PCBs, and 21 the words of caution about handle properly. Don't 22 let it get into the environment. 23 Q. Now, how was that possible? How would it be 24 possible for a manufacturer of, let's say, an open ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047084 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 143 1 system product not to get it into the environment? 2 A. He's got a decision to make about whether he 3 continues putting that product out. He's got to use 4 his best j udgment based on the information he had. 5 If he felt uncomfortable with what he had, he could 6 pick up the telephone or write and ask for more. 7 Q. In your view, was the information sufficient 8 that you were providing to the manufacturers of these 9 products that they should have known not to place 10 them in open systems products? 11 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of 12 the question. 13 You may answer. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know enough about 15 the final application to say that I had a view 16 regarding each and every application. It is up 17 to the customer to evaluate the uses which you 18 put the PCBs and make a j udgment call. 19 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 20 Q. As of 1969 which applications do you believe, 21 based on the information that you were sending out, 22 should a manufacturer have known were inappropriate 23 uses of Aroclors? 24 MR. GOUTMAN: A couple of obj ec tions. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047085 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 144 1 Maybe points of clarification. That he 2 thought as of 19 6 9? Is that the ques tion? 3 MR. MC CLAIN: Well, as of 1970, when 4 you assumed the job of Manager, Environmental 5 Control - - 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 8 Q. Upon reviewing the situation and the 9 information that had been sent out to your 10 customers - 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- which products do you believe a 13 manufacturer should have recognized were 14 inappropriate to place Aroclors in as of 1970 when 15 you assumed the job? 16 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of 17 the question. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't know that I'm in 19 the position to play God in this thing. I 20 don't know exactly where each of the PCB 21 containing products ended up, what type of 22 control was maintained. It is an awful lot 23 1 ike expecting the manager of the supermarket 24 to know where the person who bought a can of ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047086 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 145 1 tomatoes, where that can is going to end up. 2 There's no way of knowing. Once it leaves his 3 door he's lost contact of that can of tomatoes. 4 I think it is a poor excuse. I think it is a 5 poor example. Sorry. 6 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 7 Q. I don't think it is a poor example. Let's 8 playthat out a little bit. Let's say the 9 supermarket manager places, sells, the can of 10 tomatoes and it has a warning that says persons that 11 are allergic to tomatoes should not eat these. The 12 person then buys it knowing that, knowing that he is 13 allergic to tomatoes, and eats them. That would be 14 an inappropriate use in my view. Okay? Just so we 15 are on the same page. 16 A. Yes, but the manager - 17 MR. GOUTMAN: There's no pending 18 question. 19 MR. MC CLAIN: Just clarification. I'm 20 using the witness's example. 21 MR. GOUTMAN: I think you changed the 22 example, but, in any event - 23 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 24 Q. The question is, all right, knowing what ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47087 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 146 1 information was published in your bulletins about 2 environmental contamination from Aroclors, what 3 produc ts do you believe would have been inappropriate 4 for a manufacturer to continue to utilize Aroclors 5 in? 6 MR. GOUTMAN: With all due respect, 7 counselor, that's the same question he was just asked 8 and he just answered. If the witness has any more to 9 add, please do so. 10 THE WITNESS: I don't feel I have enough 11 information to answer your question in specific 12 terms, even generally, because I have no idea 13 whatever what happens in the customer's plant 14 and what happens when he ships his product, and 15 what happens when the shipper has got it on his 16 truck, and what happens at the destination when 17 it is finally put to use. It is just too 18 complex. 19 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 20 Q. Let's step back for a minute. You s tated 21 earlier that by 1970 Monsanto had made the decision 22 that open system products, that Aroclors would not be 23 sold for use in open system products; am I right? 24 A. Yes. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047088 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 147 Q. So obviously by 1970 Monsanto had made the dec is ion that it was not appropriate to utilize Aroclors where they could be released through the environment; am I right? MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of the question as to the use of the word "appropriate." THE WITNESS; Monsanto decided, from its limited knowledge of these open uses, that the chances of the PCBs in these uses that Monsanto, right or wrong, judged to be open, would lead to easy entry into the environment, and it was based really on the limited information, but pretty common knowledge about many of the uses, so they arbitrarily decided not to sell, rather than go to each customer and sit down and determine specifically where the product went that the customer made and how they handled, that would have been so time consuming you would have never gotten to the end of that process, so they arbitrarily said no more. I don't know how else to describe that intent. The intent was to cut down on, what appeared to be obvious free discharge to the environment. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47089 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 148 1 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 2 Q. And that was based upon the reports that we 3 see on page one of Exhibit 19, the Widmark and Jensen 4 report of November '66, the Great Britain report in 5 '67, the Rhine River and Netherlands reports of '69, 6 and Risebrough's report of August of '68; is that 7 right ? 8 A. Well, plus the a through h examples. 9 Q. In the last six months, which would have taken 10 us into 1968; right? 11 A. What was the date of this ? (Indicating) 12 MR. GOUTMAN; 1969. 13 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 14 Q. October of 1969 , so it could have been early 15 19 6 9; correct ? 16 MR. GOUTMAN: I'm sorry. I was 17 speaking to the witness. 18 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 19 Q. That was the basis upon which Monsanto made 20 its decision? 21 A. That was the information that it had at hand 22 then, and, yes, that's the basis for the decision. 23 MR. MC CLAIN: Let's take a break. 24 (Off the record discussion). ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047090 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 149 1 MR. MC CLAIN: This wi11 be marked as 2 Papageorge Exhibit 20. 3 (The above-referred-to document was 4 marked as Papageorge Exhibit 20 for 5 identification) 6 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 7 Q. Are you familiar with this document? 8 A. Yes, I am. 9 Q. Mr. Kelly says,"When are wegoing", this is 10 about PCB in milk samples; is that right? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. And apparently inthis instance paint had been 13 applied to concrete silos containing grain that fed 14 or feed that fed cattle; am I right? 15 A. That is right. 16 Q. And what was being found was that the cattle 17 milk had PCBs in it. He said, "When are we going to 18 tell our customers not to use any Aroclor in any 19 paint formulation that contacts food, feed, or water 20 for animals or humans. I think it is very important 21 that this be done." 22 Now, when was tha t sugges tion first 23 made? Do you know? 24 A. Which suggestion, sir? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47091 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 150 1 Q. That customers not utilize Aroclors in paints 2 that would contact food within the confines of 3 Monsanto. 4 A. The discussion about eliminating uses which 5 led to entry into the environment took place over a 6 many month period, shortly after the analytical 7 methods demonstrated that in truth what is being seen 8 are PCBs; therefore, we should take some action, so 9 when Dr. Kelly, in this memorandum to me, asked when 10 are we going to tell them, the decision had already 11 been made but he was not aware of it, so I ran - 12 MR. GOTJTMAN: How - 13 Finish your answer. 14 THE WITNESS: So I ran over to his 15 office. I told him. Doctor, I got your memo. 16 We decided to bow out of the open uses and we 17 are going to tell our customers within the next 18 month, at best. 19 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 20 Q. And what was the date that decision had been 21 made. By which date? 22 A. I don't recall. It was about the middle to 23 the end of March. Near the time of this memo. 24 Q. What was the ANSI committee? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47092 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 151 1 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Vague. 2 You can answer it if you can. 3 THE WITNESS: This is a group of 4 representatives of the electrical equipment 5 industry, the power distribution industries, 6 government agencies that was assembled to \ 7 address the proper handling and use of PCBs to 8 avoid further contamination of the environment, 9 and the acronym ANSI stands for the American 10 National Standards Institute. 11 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 12 Q. What was the C-107 committee? 13 A. That was the designation of the group that I 14 just mentioned. 15 Q. And what was their responsibility? 16 A. To prepare, in essence, guidelines on the 17 proper continued use of PCBs in the electrical 18 industry because of the safety features that it 19 provided. 20 MR. MC CLAIN: This next document will 21 be Papageorge Exhibit 21. (Indicating). 22 (The above-referred-to document was 23 marked as Papageorge Exhibit 21 for 24 identification) ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47093 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 152 1 BY MR. MC 2 Q. Are you familiar with this document? 3 A. It appears to be a document that I prepared 4 Q. 5 A. This was a speech that you gave? Yes 6 Q. Doees this fairly and accurately represent 7 Monsaannttoo''ss PCB program as you knew it on September 8 14, 197'1? 9 A. Oh, I don't know about the use of the words 10 "fairly and accurately". This is the way the 11 situation appeared to me. 12 Q. You didn't try to fudge anything here. 13 A. I don't need to; I just called it the way I 14 s aw it. 15 Q. You were trying to tell the truth when you met 16 with this commi11ee. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. It says here that, and we have alre ady 19 this , that in 1967 you receiv ed copies of a t a 20 give n in Sweden by Professors Widmark and Jens 21 S toe kholm; is that right? 22 MR. GOUTMAN; We will agree tha t 23 what it says. We'll agree and stipulate to 24 that. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47094 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 153 1 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 2 Q. That's what it says; right? 3 A. Yes, that's what it says. 4 Q. And the date really was 1966, though, wasn't 5 it? We saw that document earlier. 6 A. We had a report in late 1966. It was a few 7 months later that we got what the investigators in 8 Sweden actually presented. 9 Q. So you heard about it in 1966 and then you got 10 a copy of the paper subsequently is how you would 11 phrase it. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And then it talks about the accumulating 14 evidence during 1968 and 1969; is that right? 15 MR. GOUTMAN; Where are you referring 16 to? 17 THE WITNESS; Is that the third 18 paragraph in the middle? 19 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. 20 MR. GOUTMAN: Don't accept the 21 characterization of this document if you don't 22 agree with it. 23 What's the question, counsel? 24 BY MR. MC CLAIN: ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47095 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 154 1 Q. The question is in the second paragraph 2 there's reference to during 1968 and 1969 the 3 evidence continued to indicate that the higher 4 chlorinated biphenyls were being identified in the 5 tissues of fish and birds; correct? 6 MR. GOUTMAN: I object, because that 7 leaves out the beginning. 8 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 9 Q. I'll read the whole thing. "During 1968 and 10 1969 as methodology improved the evidence continued 11 to indicate that the higher chlorinated biphenyls 12 were being identified in the tissue of fish and 13 birds"; correct? 14 A. Correct. That's the third paragraph? 15 Q. Right. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And that was true, as far asyou knew it. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. In this document ittalks about fish being 20 concentrators of PCBs. Did you have that 21 understanding, that fish were concentrators of PCBs? 22 MR. GOUTMAN: Could you direct us to 23 where you are referring to; what page? 24 THE WITNESS: What page is that on? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47096 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 155 1 MR . MC CLAIN: In the third paragraph. 2 MR . GOUTMAN: Of what page? 3 MR . MC CLAIN: Third page. I'm sorry 4 MR. GOUTMAN: Second paragraph? 5 MR . MC CLAIN: Yes . 6 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 7 Q. It says, "We have been in touch with 8 laboratories such as the Water Quality Laboratory of 9 Duluth, Minnesota. They have conduc ted studies which 10 indicate there is some effect on some species. There 11 has been some work done in the Columbia, Missouri 12 Bureau of Interior Fish and Pesticides Laboratory 13 which indicates, for example, magnification about 14 5 0,000 times. By that I mean that the amount of PCB 15 detected in this fish tissues was 5 0,000 times that 16 present in the water environment in which this fish 17 was exposed." 18 A. That's what I stated, yes. 19 Q. And in other documents I have seen reports 20 that at least some investigators thought that the 21 fish concentrated the PCBs from their aqueous 22 environment. Are you familiar with such reports? 23 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of 24 the ques tion. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47097 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 156 1 You may answer. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's - - that is 3 part of what is known as biomagnification. 4 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 5 Q. What does that mean? 6 A. It means that the material being studied 7 occurs at extremely low levels at the bottom of the 8 feeding chain, and as each of the members of the 9 feeding chain, you go up the chain, so to speak, are 10 accumulating higher concentrations, so the creature 11 at the top of this food ladder is eating much more 12 concentrated material than the creature at the very 13 bottom. 14 Q. I understand. At page four you state, "There 15 is a growing thought among many of the responsible 16 scientists that this environmental problem is the 17 most complex" - 18 MR. GOUTMAN: Is most complex. 19 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 20 Q. "Is most complex and it is not really any one 21 insult, that is the demise of any particular species, 22 but it could be the cumulative effect of all insults 23 a creature is exposed to and usually the last insult 24 is the one that gets blamed." ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047098 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 157 1 A. I did state that. 2 Q. And so was it your view that this 3 environmental contamination that was being de tec ted 4 from PCBs was viewed by some scientis ts as be ing an 5 overall contributor, perhaps, to disease leve Is in 6 humans ? 7 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 8 the question. 9 THE WITNESS: No, that was not the 10 thought at the time. This was just an example 11 of the questioning that was still occu rring at 12 the time regarding the effects of the presence 13 of these materials in the environment, and the 14 intent was to - - the intent was to mak e sure 15 that all of the evidence available was 16 accumulated before you jump into concl us ions, 17 and this was brought about by such thi ngs as 18 Risebrough's work where he said PCBs a nd then 19 he retracted, and then there's this, a t that 20 time it was still a fresh thought, the shrimp 21 that were studied in the laboratory at 22 Gulf Breeze, Florida were studied in i ndoor 23 troughs with low concentrations of PCB s and the 24 newly hatched j uvenile shrimp did not survive. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47099 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 158 1 This does not mean that that's what happened 2 out there in the gulf, itself, because the 3 gulf, as best I recall, nobody was able to 4 detect the PCB level in the gulf water. It was 5 much lower than the test trough water. 6 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 7 Q. But when it was introduced in the trough water 8 it was toxic to the shrimp. 9 A. At the level that they mentioned, five parts 10 per billion, which was achievable with the 11 instrumentation available. 12 Q. Which was a low level at the time. 13 MR. GOUTMAN: Which was what? I'm 14 sorry. 15 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 16 Q. A low level at the time. 17 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 18 the question. 19 You may answer. 20 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 21 Q. In fact, it says so in the document. "Very, 22 very low concentrations - five parts per billion in 2 3 the water, due destroy juvenile shrimp." 24 A. Yes. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON00471QO WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 159 1 Q. That's what you said at the time. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And you reported here -- you state at page 4 eight, "We decided that we've got to get out of those 5 applications" -- I'm sorry. 6 "We decided that we've got to get out 7 of those applications when we thought there was no 8 earthly chance - or it was beyond our ability - to 9 control the introduction into the environment, so we 10 got out of all of the so-called plasticizer 11 applications. August 30, 1970 was the targeted 12 effective date." 13 And you told us about that already. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Now, you go on and talkabout Mr.William Fitz 16 Ryan, Congressman Fitz Ryan's bill, and how he first 17 submitted a bill that talked about using controls, 18 and subsequently brought back a bill that said all 19 PCBs should be banned. Do you see that? 20 A. I see on page nine the last full paragraph on 21 the page. Is that the paragraph that you had 22 reference to? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. Where he was going to ban them, but he did ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47101 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 160 1 propose at the time that the Secretary of HEW could 2 give exceptions. 3 Q. And so then what happened with the second 4 bill? 5 A. Oh, the next page. 6 Yes. The second billhe wanted a total 7 ban without any exceptions. 8 Q. And ultimately was that the way that the 9 legislation went? 10 A. Seven years later. 11 Q. Did you favor or oppose it? 12 MR. GOUTMAN: Do youmean him, 13 personally? 14 MR. MC CLAIN: The company. 15 MR. GOUTMAN: If you feel comfortable 16 speaking for the company, sir, please answer 17 the question. 18 THE WITNESS: In 1976, January or 19 thereabouts, the vice president of Monsanto and 20 I went to Washington at a meeting called by the 21 EPA to which the representatives of the 22 electrical equipment manufacturers were 23 present, and Monsanto's vice president informed 24 the audience that Monsanto was ready to stop ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47102 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 161 1 production of PCBs when our electrical 2 customers had found a suitable, safe 3 alternative. So by that announcement, I would 4 suggest that, yes, we were supportive of that 5 approach. 6 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 7 Q. And what was the date of that? 8 A. January of 1976. 9 Q. And before that time you had not been in favor 10 of a ban of PCBs? 11 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 12 the question. 13 THE WITNESS: Well, we found that - 14 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 15 Q. Let me ask you a different question. If you 16 want to answer that, go ahead, but I think this will 17 be a better question. By 1970 you decided not to 18 sell it for so-called open system uses. 19 A. Yes. Correct. 20 Q. You made that decisionvoluntarily. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. But you continued tobelieve between 1970 and 23 1976 that it could be used in closed system 24 applications. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47103 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 162 1 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 2 the question. 3 You can answer. 4 THE WITNESS: Not quite. Between August 5 of 1970, when we stopped selling to the open 6 uses, and about 1972 we phased out of the 7 hydraulic fluids and the heat trans f er fluids 8 voluntarily because we found that even though 9 these symptoms were designed to be closed 10 systems they still tended to malfunc tion, leak 11 and what have you. And we were able to come up 12 with alternative materials and alternative 13 designs to overcome the shortcomings of the 14 alternative materials. For example, if a 15 material was no longer fire resis tant we were 16 able to propose certain fire prevention 17 systems. Deluge symptoms and the like. So the 18 only thing remaining in, say, 1973 and 19 thereabouts, and these dates are 20 approximations, I forgot the exact timing, the 21 only use remaining was in the electrical 22 business. Electrical equipment. 23 And in 1976 we informed Russell Train of 24 EPA and his audience we were ready to bow out. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47104 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 163 1 That's it. 2 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 3 Q. By September of 1969 Dr. Kelly had concluded 4 that it was not going to be possible to protect or to 5 prevent the full discontinuance of PCBs; isn't that 6 true? 7 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to what Dr. 8 Kelly thought. 9 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that 10 particular statement, but if he made it, he's 11 entitled to his opinion. 12 MR. GOUTMAN: Don't speculate. 13 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 14 Q. Before 1976 were there people in the company 15 that expressed the view that you ought to discontinue 16 their use because they were being, the PCBs were 17 still being lost to the environment, even in closed 18 system applications? 19 A. Well, in many ways it would have been 20 irresponsible because of the fear of blackouts, 21 fires, catastrophes throughout the power distribution 22 system, and if you remember the blackout in New York 23 City that was paramount in our thinking at the time. 24 Q. Was that caused by PCBs or the lack thereof? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47105 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 164 1 A. No, but it was an example of what happens with 2 this interconnected electrical distribution system 3 and the failure of any segment and the domino effect 4 it has, so we were in a position of perceiving this 5 as a very serious type of decision. And to suddenly 6 stop the availability of a fireproof liquid for that 7 purpose just didn't seem responsible, in spite of the 8 environmental presence. 9 Q. Did anyone consider, during this time period, 10 what impact the use of PCBs in building products 11 would have for building environments ? 12 MR. GOUTMAN: During what time period 13 are we talking about? 14 MR. MC CLAIN: Any of this time period 15 between 1970 and 1976. 16 MR. GOUTMAN: Are you talking about 17 anyone in Monsanto or anyone in the world? 18 MR. MC CLAIN: Well, let's take it one 19 step at a time. 20 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 21 Q. First of all, anyone at Monsanto. 22 A. I don't know that we used the expression 23 "building products". It was part of the open system 24 use. And - - ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47106 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 165 1 Q. Tell me what the concerns were in regard to 2 open systems use in like building environments. 3 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection. Vague. 4 THE WITNESS: Well, by all of the common 5 definitions of what is a closed system, the 6 uses we perceive, such as coatings, the varnish 7 on this woodwork, the ceiling tiles, if you 8 will, the adhesives, to us those were open 9 uses. They are out there, and just because 10 they are in a fixed spot doesn't mean that 11 eventually they will find their way into the 12 garbage pit or the landfill or what have you. 13 So we, in our collective thinking, kind of 14 grouped building use as an open use. 15 (Indicating) 16 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 17 Q. Did you consider the, at any point, the 18 problem of off gassing from adhesives and coatings on 19 surfaces in buildings? 20 A. Off gassing? 21 MR. GOUTMAN: Of PCBs you are talking 22 about ? 23 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. 24 THE WITNESS: We certainly considered ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047107 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 166 1 it, but knowing how PCBs behave, they are not 2 volatile. They don't j us t give off fumes 3 continuously. 4 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 5 Q. What about when they are heated? 6 A. When they are heated you have to reach a 7 pretty high temperature. It isn't just a matter of a 8 little bit of heat, like a light bulb. It takes a 9 high temperature to drive off that, make a vapor out 10 of the liquid. 11 Q. What about in a building heating system? 12 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ec tion. Hypothetical. 13 You can answer the question. 14 THE WITNESS: I just don't imagine a 15 building heating system, unles s it is right at 16 the, let's call it the furnace unit, the heat 17 source, exceeding the 300 degrees Centigrade or 18 what have you to volatilize PCBs. 19 MR. GOUTMAN: The T&S Building got very 20 hot . 21 MR. MC CLAIN: You would be very 22 surprised. 23 MR. GOUTMAN: I would be surprised if it 24 got to 300. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047108 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 167 1 MR. MC CLAIN: I would be surprised if 2 that is a temperature - - 3 THE WITNESS: That' s a temperature, 4 sir - - 5 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 6 Q. What is your basis for saying that 3 0 0 degrees 7 for the vaporization of PCBs? 8 MR. ROUX: 300 degrees Celsius. I 9 think he said Celsius. 10 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. 11 THE WITNESS: That is the order of 12 magnitude of temperature that we use to 13 vaporize the PCBs to purify them. We cool 14 them, condense them, and collect them, and 15 that's the product that is sold. 16 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 17 Q. So at that temperature they are fully 18 vaporized. 19 A. There is always a pot of liquid at the bottom 20 of the pot. It is boiling off the top. That's the 21 temperature it takes to drive it off and separate the 22 vapor from the liquid. 23 Q. Now, in some of the documents there were 24 expressions of concern about workers exposed to even ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47109 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 168 1 granular PCBs or flaked PCBs. Do you recall seeing 2 documents like that ? 3 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ec tion. No foundation 4 as to what documents you are talking about, but you 5 can answer if you can. 6 THE WITNESS: What I believe you are 7 referring to is the series of PCBs that are 8 solids at room temperature. 9 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. The 1268, as an example. 1270 and so on. 12 When they reach room temperature they are no longer 13 liquids; they are solids. They look like limes tone 14 chips, some of them, and they have to be ground and 15 crushed before they are packaged and sold to the 16 customer. In that physical form it is easy to create 17 dus ts and some of those dusts, unless they are 18 collected properly, with filters and air screens, can 19 get out into the environment and settle on people's 20 skin, up their nostrils and in their ears, and this 21 is the kind of thing that you watch for as you work 22 with that type of PCB. Now, those were not very 23 common. They were produced in smaller volumes. 24 Q. What about 1262s? What kind of physical form ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47110 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 169 1 did they have? 2 A. 62? I would suggest that you might compare 3 that to a heavy molasses. Very thick. 4 Q. And do you know what uses it was used for? 5 A. Not specifically. It brought p r o jo 11 e s g 6 primarily of fire resistance, to be used in plastic 7 materials . An example would be, for example, the 8 plastic shower walls that are now made, the units. 9 (Indicating) 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. Some of the customers added those PCBs to that 12 to make it a fire resistant shower wall. 13 Q. Do you know why it would have been utilized in 14 duct material? 15 A. I know nothing about duct construction. 16 Q. Or mastics. Why would it be used in a mastic? 17 A. I would be guessing. 18 MR. GOUTMAN: Don't guess. 19 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 20 Q. Give me your best, recognizing that it is not 21 22 MR. GOUTMAN: He already said he is 23 guessing. That' s it. 24 BY MR. MC CLAIN: ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47111 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 170 1 Q. Do you have an educated guess, called a 2 hypoth.es is? 3 MR. GOUTMAN: I don't think the rules 4 say that educated guesses are different than 5 the guesses. 6 MR. MC CLAIN: If he has got some basis 7 based on his experience I would like to have an 8 answer. 9 THE WITNESS: I don't have experience 10 with mas tics. 11 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 12 Q. Or adhesives. 13 A. Your guess is as good as mine as to why they 14 use a certain viscosity in one and a thinner in the 15 other and a solid in a third. 16 Q. Did Monsanto consider the problem of what 17 could happen to PCB containing materials if a fire 18 should occur in a building where PCB produc ts had 19 been installed? 20 MR. GOUTMAN: At what point are we 21 talking about? 22 MR. MC CLAIN: At any point. 23 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ec tion. Overly broad. 24 THE WITNESS: You asked me did Monsanto ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47112 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 171 1 consider. Well, Monsanto's knowledge of PCBs 2 and their characteristics unavoidably forced 3 them to classify them as fire resistant. And 4 by that their tests showed that materials with 5 sufficient PCBs in them would not sustain a 6 fire as long as a blow torch was on it it might 7 smolder and spit and burn, but the minute you 8 pull the flame away it would snuff out. 9 There's no way that Monsanto would ever know 10 that enough PCBs were present to give that 11 characteristic. It might add to too little and 12 you think you got a fire resis tant system and 13 it really isn't. So I don't know that Monsanto 14 was in any position to know exactly what would 15 happen with duet work in a building that caught 16 on fire. They just didn't have any 17 information. 18 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 19 Q. Did you consider what could occur if releases 20 o f PCBs into a building were caused by a fire? 21 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection. Are you 22 talking about Mr. Papageorge? Did he consider, this 23 witness ? 24 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47113 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 172 1 MR. GOUTMAN: I object to the question 2 as overly broad. 3 You can answer if you can. 4 THE WITNESS: I never felt I had enough 5 information to arrive at a responsible 6 conclusion. I had to rely, really, on the 7 manufacturer of that product and what he was 8 introducing into the marketplace. 9 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 10 Q. So it would have been your view that the 11 manufacturer of that product should have foreseen 12 that, based on the information that you gave them, 13 that it contained PCBs and take whatever precautions 14 were necessary if their product were involved in a 15 fire to be certain that those PCBs didn't get out 16 into the environment? 17 MR. GOUTMAN: Well, I object to that 18 question. I think that's asking him to draw a legal 19 conclusion, and I might add one that the law of 20 Pennsylvania has never recognized. 21 If you understand the ques tion, you can answer 22 i t. 23 THE WITNESS: I think I understand it, 24 but that doesn't mean that I really do. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47114 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 173 1 MR. GOUTMAN: If you think you 2 understand it, we would ask that you try to 3 rephrase the ques tion since the witness is not 4 sure of the question. 5 MR. MC CLAIN: He thinks he understands 6 it. Let him answer it. 7 MR. GOUTMAN: Go ahead. If you 8 understand the question, answer it; if you 9 don't, then don't. 10 MR. MC CLAIN: Quit coaching the 11 witness. You made your obj ec tion. 12 MR. GOUTMAN: I'm not coaching the 13 witness. 14 THE WITNESS: The reason I hesitate - - I 15 think I better hear it again. 16 MR. MC CLAIN: That's fair. 17 Please read it back. 18 (The last question was read back by the 19 Court Reporter). 20 MR. GOUTMAN: Again, I obj ec t to the 21 form. 22 THE WITNESS: I would expect the 23 customer who used PCBs in his produc t would 24 consider the information we gave him, evaluate ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47115 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 174 1 whether he needs more and ask for it, in terms 2 of what the PCB would contribute to his 3 product. Monsanto was never in the business of 4 designing his product or proposing how he 5 should make it and so on. And I would expect 6 him to do whatever it takes to assure himself 7 that the product he introduces to the market 8 'place is socially responsible, including what 9 PCB information he has and all of the other 10 information he needs to have before he 11 introduces it to the marketplace. 12 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 13 Q. Let me j ust ask you, Mr. Papageorge, you would 14 not want residues of PCBs on surfaces where persons 15 worked in an unprotected environment, would you, 16 based on your knowledge? 17 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection. What do you 18 mean by "residues"? What concentrations are you 19 talking about? 20 MR. MC CLAIN: Would you want any 21 concentrations of PCBs on surfaces in a building 22 where people were working continually in an 23 unprotected fashion? 24 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. It calls for ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047116 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 175 1 a medical testimony that this witness is not 2 qualified to give. 3 You can express an opinion if you have one. 4 THE WITNESS: I can express my personal 5 experience. I have worked in environments like 6 that for years, and I have seen people retire 7 from Monsanto at a healthy 65 that worked with 8 PCBs on surfaces and on their hands and 9 everything for 40 years, so I cannot really say 10 that I would be concerned with that kind of 11 exposure. If you can't smell it I don't think 12 it can hurt you. It has a distinctive odor, 13 which varies from person to person, but you 14 know it when it is there. 15 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 16 Q. What does it smell like? 17 A. I can only describe what it smells like to me. 18 Q. Fine. 19 A. It reminds me of a disinfectant type that they 20 used to use in the old time dispensaries and so on. 21 To me. Others smell it differently, but if you can't 22 smell it, the levels have not reached what is 23 considered generally to be harmful. And there's no 24 evidence that harm has been done under those ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47117 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 176 1 conditions. 2 Q. And that's your personal opinion. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. So is it fair to say that it would be your 5 feeling that if you couldn't smell it you would not 6 take any precautions when working around it? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Is that right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. That would be your view? 11 A. That's one criteria, yes. 12 Q. Do you know what view other governmental 13 agencies take in regard to that subject? Do they 14 use a smell test? 15 A. No, I don't know. 16 Q. Do you know any government agency that uses 17 the Papageorge smell test? 18 A. That's true. 19 Q. None do ? 20 A. Well, I have never discussed it with anybody 21 so I don't know. 22 Q. So it may be an innovation, but no one has 23 used it yet; right? 24 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47118 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 177 1 the question. Are you looking for a different 2 answer? 3 MR. MC CLAIN: No, I'm saying no one 4 has used it, have they? 5 MR. GOUTMAN: No one has used what? 6 Obj ection to the form of the question. 7 If you understand the question, please answer. 8 THE WITNESS: No one has used my 9 guideline of presence of odor as an indicator 10 of potential problems that I'm aware of. 11 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 12 Q. And you are familiar, are you not, that NIOSH, 13 as an example, sets a very low standard of exposure 14 to PCBs on surfaces? 15 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of 16 the question. 17 You can answer. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't know what you mean 19 by "low." 20 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 21 Q. What do you understand NIOSH's recommendation 22 to be? Do you have an unders tanding? 23 A. I have not kept tuned in. 24 Q. Do you have in mind any 1evels at which ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47119 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 178 1 government agencies have viewed exposure to PCB on 2 surfaces to be safe? 3 A. No, I don't. 4 Q. There was one incident that I did want to talk 5 to you about, the so-called Yusho incident. 6 Y U S H 0. 7 A. Correct. Yusho. 8 Q. Yusho. Tell us about that, to the extent that 9 you remember it. 10 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Overly broad. 11 You can you answer it. 12 THE WITNESS: As I recall, in 1968 an 13 incident occurred in Japan in which they used a 14 Japanese made PCB, a Kanechlor, 15 KANECHLOR, I don't recall the number, 16 there's a number that follows the Kanechlor 17 designation, the system used the Kanechlor as a 18 heat transfer fluid, which was heated over in 19 one corner of the operation. The hot fluid is 20 transferred to a unit in which they distilled 21 rice brand oil to be used as a food oil. The 22 system apparently developed an internal leak in 23 which the Kanechlor mixed with the rice brand 24 oil, and the rice brand oil contaminated with ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47120 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 179 1 this Kanechlor was sold to the public. And the 2 community came up with ailments, symptoms: 3 Nauseas, headaches, there's even a reference to 4 the birth of what they called brown infants. A 5 pigmentation in the infant that with time 6 cleared up, but when they were first born they 7 were darker complected. As I recall, at the 8 meeting of EPA in November of 1975 in Chicago 9 the report was made that the material that was 10 responsible for the ailments was dioxins; not 11 the PCBs. That's all I really know about this. 12 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 13 Q. Are dioxins a by-produc t of burning PCBs? 14 A . No . 15 Q. Are they ever found as a contaminate of PCBs? 16 A . No . 17 Q. Have you heard reports that dioxins are found 18 when PCBs are burned? 19 A . PCBs burning? Never. 20 Q. In what situations have you heard of dioxins 21 being associated with PCBs? 22 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 23 the question. 24 THE WITNESS: When PCBs are blended with ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47121 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 180 1 other chlorinated chemicals to make, as an 2 example, transformer fluids, and the one I have 3 in mind at the moment is tetra and trichloryl 4 benzene as a diluent. It is the tetra and 5 trichloryl benzene, when burned, can create 6 dioxins. The chemical possibility is there. 7 With PCBs -- you can't get from PCBs to dioxin. 8 The configuration just doesn't allow it. 9 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 10 Q. What about a fluid used in light ballasts? 11 Does that chemical mix allow dioxins to be created? 12 A. I'm not aware of any chemical mix in the PCB 13 ballast units. 14 Q. It was 100 percent PCB. 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. What was the grade? What was the - 17 A. The. most common one was Aroclor 1242 in this 18 country. 19 Q. Were you ever involved in a meeting of the so 20 called ad hoc committee in regard to PCBs? 21 A. I think we are talking about the same. 22 Monsanto ad hoc committee? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. No, it existed before I had arrived on the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47122 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 181 1 scene in 1970. 2 Q. Were you given any reports of the ad hoc 3 committee when you came as part of your packet to 4 review as part of your job as Manager, Environmental 5 Operations, or Manager, Environmental Control? 6 A. I have seen reports from that committee. As 7 best I recall, I think I saw a report during my 8 tutorial period, but I can't recall just which one it 9 was . 10 Q. What was the purpose of that committee? If 11 you know. 12 A. The committee was attempting to communicate to 13 upper management in Monsanto the status of the PCB 14 environmental issue as they perceived it, and their 15 intent was to make recommendations to upper 16 management in Monsanto regarding what actions 17 Monsanto as a corporation should take. 18 MR. MC CLAIN: Let's mark this as 19 Papageorge Exhibit 22. (Indicating). 20 (The above - referred-to document was 21 marked as Papageorge Exhibit 22 for 22 identification) 23 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 24 Q. Sir? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47123 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 182 1 A. I have scanned the document. 2 Q. Does this look familiar to you? 3 A. Yes, it does. 4 Q. Do you see here the objectives of the group 5 on the front page, on the page marked"Objectives"1? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. "Protect continued sales and profits of 8 Aroclors, 9 "Permit continued development of new 10 uses and sales, and 11 "Protect the image of the Organic 12 Division and the Corporation as members of the 13 business community recognizing their responsibilities 14 to prevent and/or control contamination of the global 15 ecosys tern"? 16 A. I see that, yes. 17 Q. Did you understand that thosewere the three 18 goals of the committee? 19 MR. GOUTMAN: That isn't what this says. 20 Obj ec tion. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't know that this was 22 reflective of the goals of the committee. The 23 way it reads to me is that this committee saw 24 these three points as areas of recommendation ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47124 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 183 1 to the two top managers, Mr.Bergen and 2 Mr. Springate. 3 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 4 Q. And their first priority, at least by number 5 if not by emphasis, was to protect continued sales 6 and profits of Aroclors? 7 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 8 the question. 9 THE WITNESS: That's what it says, yes. 10 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 11 Q. And to permit the continued development of new 12 uses and sales of Aroclors. 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. GOUTMAN: You havealready read 15 these, Ken. 16 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 17 Q. And to protect the image of the Organic 18 Division and the corporation. 19 A. That's one of the three, yes. 20 MR. GOUTMAN: "As members of the 21 business community recognizing their 22 responsibilities to control contamination of 23 the global ecosystem." 24 MR. MC CLAIN: That's what it says. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47125 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 184 1 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 2 Q. So did you understand that the goal was to 3 protect the image of the Organic Division or to 4 actually be involved in preventing and/or controlling 5 contamination of the global ecosystem? 6 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 7 the question. 8 THE WITNESS: You can't have one without 9 the other, sir. 10 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 11 Q. Do you know why it was phrased this way, to 12 protect the image of the corporation, of the Organic 13 Division? 14 A. No, I don't. 15 Q. Now, in 1970, April 17, for the first time 16 there was something called earth day. Do you 17 remember that? 18 A. Yes. . 19 Q. You tried to get ready for earth day; isn't 20 that right? 21 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 22 the question. 23 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 24 Q. You prepared a handout so that people would ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47126 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 185 1 have a way to respond if they were given questions on 2 earth day? 3 A. I remember some activity at that time, yes. 4 Q. Why did you feel that it was necessary to 5 prepare information on earth day? 6 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 7 the question. 8 THE WITNESS: Well, as you know, earth 9 day was observed to emphasize the need for a 10 cleaner environment. The PCB environmental 11 issue was new and getting some attention in the 12 press, and putting the two together, Monsanto 13 decided that the likelihood that we would be 14 asked questions was very high. 15 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 16 Q. Was it part of the effort to present the image 17 of Monsanto being a responsible company? 18 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 19 the question. 20 THE WITNESS: It is part of not only 21 projecting the image, but maintaining the image 22 is more accurate. 23 MR. MC CLAIN: Let's mark this as 24 Papageorge Exhibit 23. (Indicating). ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47127 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 186 1 (The above - referred-to document was 2 marked as Papageorge Exhibit 23 for 3 identification). 4 MR. GOUTMAN: Again, note my objection 5 to use of documents produced in the Scott 6 1itigation. 7 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 8 Q. First of all, are you familiar with this 9 document ? 10 A. Yes, I am. 11 Q. You prepared it? 12 A. I circulated it. 13 Q. On page five you say, "Is the public in any 14 immediate danger? " 15 A I see that. 16 Q. "It is our opinion that the public is not 17 faced with any immediate danger to its health from 18 PCBs. Contrary to the sensational headlines of 19 recent days, PCB is not commonly found around the 20 household. 21 "The maj or market for PCB- containing 22 produc ts is in electrical equipment. 11 is also used 23 in closed system heat-transfer applications. The 24 'plasticizer' uses are very 1imited and are ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47128 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 187 1 restricted to specialty products." 2 Did I read that accurately? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Is it fair to say that the general public was 5 concerned about the use of plasticizers where they 6 could be in contact with PCB on a regular basis? 7 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Objection to 8 the form of the question. I don't know what 9 you mean by "the general public", and the 10 foundation for which this witness would have 11 responsive information in regard to that 12 question. 13 You may answer the question. 14 THE WITNESS: You have asked me if the 15 general public had concerns about plasticizer 16 use. I don't know that the general public 17 would even know the word "plasticizer", let 18 alone ask about it. 19 BY MR. MC CLAIN:- 20 Q. Why did you put it in your question and answer 2 1 for people to be able to talk about it? 22 A. That's in the event that somebody from the 23 audience or on the phone or a newspaper journalist 24 picked up on the idea of plasticizers and asked the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47129 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 188 1 question. 2 Q. You must have thought that it was a 3 possibility or you wouldn't have put it in this memo; 4 am I right? 5 MR. GOUTMAN: A possibility of what, 6 Ken? 7 MR. MC CLAIN: That someone would raise 8 the issue. 9 MR. GOUTMAN: He just said that. 10 THE WITNESS: That's one of the key uses 11 of PCB at the time. The plasticizer, note that 12 it is in quotes - - 13 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. -- as distinguished in the fluid use in 16 electrical equipment and so on, so since it was a key 17 use it was perceived that it is possible somebody may 18 ask . 19 Q. And that if such products were used in 20 households someone would be concerned about being 21 exposed to PCBs in their house; right? 22 A. Or even if they thought they were in the 23 house, let alone whether or not they were. 24 Q. So you wanted to assure the general public ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47130 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 189 1 that on a daily basis they wouldn't be exposed to 2 PCBs in plasticizers; am I right? 3 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 4 the question. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 7 Q. That's the purpose of this paragraph, isn't 8 it, Mr. Papageorge? 9 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 10 the question. 11 THE WITNESS: That's true, but in 12 households the use of PCBs around a home and so 13 on is -- was so remote. 14 MR. MC CLAIN: And you wanted to assure 15 them that even in plasticizers -- 16 MR. GOUTMAN: I don't know who 17 interrupted whom. 18 Were you done with your answer? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 21 Q. That even in plasticizers they would not - 22 strike that. 23 They would not be exposed in their 24 homes even to plasticizers because they weren't ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47131 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 190 1 commonly used for household applications; am I right? 2 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 3 the question. 4 THE WITNESS: If the question was asked 5 along those lines, yes. 6 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 7 Q. Because you at least contemplated that people 8 would be concerned about being exposed to 9 plasticizers in their environments that contained 10 PCBs; am I correct? 11 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 12 the question. 13 THE WITNESS: It was conceivable that 14 the uninformed individual might assume that his 15 shower curtains had PCBs in them, and if you 16 raise the question then we wanted to assure 17 them that it is not in your shower curtain. 18 That kind of discussion would take place. This 19 is what was meant by restricted to specialty 20 products; not the day in and day out ordinary 21 items in a household. 22 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 23 Q. And it was at least within your contemplation 24 that if the general public were exposed to ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47132 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 191 1 plasticizers in their daily environment they would be 2 concerned about that? 3 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection for the same 4 reasons I stated before. 5 MR. MC CLAIN: That's true, isn't it? 6 MR. GOUTMAN: Same objection. 7 MR. MC CLAIN: That's why you wrote the 8 paragraph. 9 MR. GOUTMAN: Same objection. 10 THE WITNESS: Well, it all depends on 11 how the person asking the question perceived 12 the problem. The fact that they might ask that 13 question would indicate that they had a 14 concern; otherwise, they wouldn't have asked 15 it. And we were trying to coach, if you will, 16 people -- not coach, but to inform anybody in 17 this list what the appropriate answer would be. 18 MR. MC CLAIN: This next Exhibit we will 19 mark as Papageorge Exhibit 24. (Indicating) 20 (The above - referred-to document was 21 marked as Papageorge Exhibit 24 for 22 identification) 23 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 24 Q. This is your document? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47133 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 192 1 MR. GOUTMAN: Take your time. Don't 2 rush 3 I am going to interpose an objection to the 4 use of a document used in the Scott litigation. 5 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 6 Q. This isone of your documents,Mr. Papageorge? 7 A. Yes, it appears to be a copy ofa document 8 that I prepared. 9 Q. Do you see one of your objectives? This 10 document is entitled, "Management Plan, 11 Polychlorinated Biphenyl Environmental Problem" 12 dated April 7, 1970. 13 A. Was that a question? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. I'm sorry. Yes, that is the correct title. 16 Q. On page two, under III "Obj ectives" it says, 17 "The overall ob j ective of this plan is to manage the 18 PCB pollution problem to prevent it from adversely 19 affecting the established Return-on-Investment 20 obj ectives of the Func tional Fluids and Plasticizers 21 Groups while maintaining the corporate image of 22 Monsanto as a responsible and respec ted member of 23 industry world wide . " 24 Do you see that? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47134 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 193 1 A. It does. 2 Q. And under the "Objectives", supporting the 3 overall objective below it says, number two, was to, 4 11 Inform customers of the PCB problem and the 5 importance of preventing environmental pollution both 6 at their plants or by their products, and encourage 7 them to take responsible action by offering 8 assistance on reclamation substitute products and 9 proper disposal." 10 Do you remember what efforts, if any, 11 you took in regard to the Gustin Bacon company? 12 MR. GOUTMAN: Specifically with regard 13 to Gustin Bacon? 14 MR. MC CLAIN: Yes. 15 THE WITNESS: I know nothing about that 16 c ompany. 17 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 18 Q. What about other companies using plasticizers? 19 What efforts did you make? Can you recall any? 20 A. We offered substitute plasticizers, for 21 example, and we offered incineration service to 22 destroy any unused PCB liquids. 23 Q. Did you give any advice to plasticizer 24 customers about concerns that they should have about ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47135 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 194 1 persons being exposed to those products in indoor 2 environments? 3 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection. 4 Could you read back that last question, 5 please. 6 (The last question was read back by the 7 Court Reporter). 8 MR. GOUTMAN: I obj ec t to the ques tion 9 because I don't know what you mean by advice on 10 concerns they should have. It doesn't make 11 syntax sense to me. 12 If the witness understands that 13 question, then the witness can answer. 14 BY MR. MC CLAIN: 15 Q. Do you understand the question? 16 A . I understand the question and it implies that 17 sharing with the customers information we had 18 regarding the effect of PCBs on human beings. 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. And we have always done that. That is an 21 ongoing activity in addition to this new activity. 22 It's two separate prongs. The human health effect 23 issue is not new. 11 is there all the time. With 24 each new customer, each new application, each ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47136 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 195 brochure that is printed and all of these communications that we talked about earlier regarding the medical profession. One doctor to another, industrial hygienist to another. That was always ongoing. This is an environmental program on top of the human health program. Q. And so the answer to the question is you did ins true t them that they ought to be concerned about exposures to plasticizers in sold products or not; correct? MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of the question. THE WITNESS: I'm confused. Who am I instructing? BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. Did you ever ins true t or give advice to a plasticizer cus tomer that they ought to limit exposure to PCBs in finished products? MR. GOUTMAN: By the users of those finished products? MR. MC CLAIN: That's right. THE WITNESS: Not in those words. We told them what PCBs can do, at what concentrations, and not knowing the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47137 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE concentrations that would exist in that final p roduc t, which ends up in a user's hands, Monsanto was in no position to say here's what you must say. We had to leave it to the judgment of the manufacturer of that item and how he communicated with his customer. BY MR. MC CLAIN: Q. And that was his responsibility, in your view. A. Yes. MR. MC CLAIN: I don't have any further questions. BY MR. MANNINO: Q. I have a few questions Mr. Papageorge, my name is Tony Mannino. I represent Philips Electronics and Advance Transformer. A little bit earlier counsel asked you some questions about light ballasts. I believe you had responded to the effect that Aroclor 1242 is the most common use of Aroclors in light ballasts in the United States. Is that fair to say? A. That's correct. Q. How do you know that information? On what do ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47138 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 197 you base that? A. My discussions with members of the electrical equipment industry. Q. Are you aware of the use of Aroclor 1242 or application of it in products other than light ballas ts at any time in closed systems ? A. In elec trical equipment ? Q. In any other type of product. A. Oh, yes, there are thousands of uses . I don' t know where to start. Q. Can you give me an example of what types of products you are aware of. A. It is an ingredient in hydraulic fluids, it is used in some heat transfer fluids, it is a - - it was an ingredient in some adhesives, some coatings, lacquers and varnishes, some inks, and of course we talked about the electrical, the capacitors and some switch gears, electrical switch gears. I'm sure I haven't covered all. Sealants, caulking around the skyscraper towers, the fixed windows, so to speak. That's all that comes to mind at the moment. Q. If that's all you can think of off the top of your head. A. Yes. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47139 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 198 1 Q. Do you have any knowledge how ballasts are 2 constructed or what their component parts are? 3 A. No, I really can't say I have. I have 4 observed the assembly line. 5 Q. Do you have -- were you finished? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you have any idea as to what part of a 8 ballast, if it had contained PCBs, would have 9 contained PCBs? 10 A. As I understand it, there's a condenser in 11 there. And unless I'm totally wrong, the condenser 12 is a foil and craft paper winding that is immersed in 13 the PCB. There's another component to that ballast 14 unit that I'm not familiar with. The whole idea, as 15 I understand it, is to give that initial current to 16 flash on the fluorescent tube. 17 Q. Based on, we have been talking all day about 18 open systems versus closed systems, what type of 19 application would ballasts consist of in your 20 unders tanding? 21 A. We consider that a part of a closed system. 22 Q. And a little bit earlier we also discussed, 23 there was some hesitancy around 1970 on Monsanto's 24 part, with respect to discontinuing closed systems, ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47140 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 199 1 because of a possible effect on the power system in 2 general as related to electrical ballasts. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Can you explain what the concern was of the 5 power system. I know you had made reference to the 6 '65 blackout and whatnot. 7 A. The concern had to do with the previous 8 experience of decades ago with mineral oil as a fluid 9 in transformers and the explosions and fires that 10 occurred. And I think it strikes home when you are 11 staying at, say, the Holiday Inn and there's a green 12 box outside your door that contains a transformer. 13 When it had PCBs in it the chance of it exploding and 14 creating a fire are reduced considerably as compared 15 to the mineral oil unit that might be perched out 16 there. So it is that kind of sensation that we felt, 17 and we were reinforced constantly by the makers of 18 those transformers, not only the Holiday Inn type, 19 but the big units, the power distribution stations . 20 Q. So is it fair to say that circa 197 0, about 21 the time that Monsanto discontinued use of the open 22 system, that the discontinued manufacture of PCBs for 23 open systems, that there was hesitancy at that point 24 in time to discontinue it for closed systems due to ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47141 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 200 the lack of a safe alternative at that point in time? A. That is true, and that -- it wasn't only Monsanto's idea; the government, the federal government, supported this use in the interagency task force report, which was published in May of 1972. There were many pages in there devoted to the continued use and why it is important to continue using it . MR. MANNINO: That's all I have. BY MR. JUETTNER: Q. Good afternoon. Nice to meet you, Mr. Papageorge. Is that how you pronounce your name? A. Yes. Whatever makes you feel comfortable. respond coming and going. I Q. My name is John Juettner. My firm represents ChemRex. I have a few follow-up questions. You testified that in 1969-1970 Monsanto made a decision to discontinue the manufacture of PCBs for open systems; is that correct? A. Yes. Q. And some of the open systems you referred to included plasticizers and caulking; is that correct? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47142 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 201 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. How familiar are you with the use of 3 plasticizers? 4 A. I don't know how to describe that. It is a 5 limited knowledge in terms of the intended benefit of 6 adding in a material which is referred to generally 7 as a plasticizer, is to add it to a base material 8 that by itself would be brittle, like some rubbers, 9 like chlorinated rubber, or the old phonograph 10 records that when you dropped they cracked. This is 11 why later they were more flexible. They had a 12 material called a plasticizer that was added. So it 13 was an ingredient added to give this property of 14 flexibility. 15 Q. Plasticizers then, some of their applications 16 might include floor tiles, for example. 17 A. Yes. Definitely. 18 Q. Ceiling tiles? 19 A. I'm not familiar enough with the need for 20 flexibility in ceiling tiles to even have an 21 impression on that. 22 Q. Plasticizers could be used in, as a component 23 product, for example, for caulking? 24 A. Correct. Yes. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047143 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 2 02 1 Well, in Monsanto the word "plasticizer," 2 when it came to the PCBs, was used quite 3 broadly and in fact it almost became a synonym 4 for miscellaneous PCB uses. In other words, if it 5 wasn't a fluid used in a piece of machinery it was 6 turned over to the plasticizer group to market, and 7 it picked up the term plasticizer, so it is a 8 miscellaneous chemical additive, which brought 9 certain properties to the end products, whatever they 10 might be . 11 Q. Is a plasticizer as a chemical additive, is 12 that included as part of food wrapping? 13 A. Oh, yes. 14 Q. Why do you add PCBs to a plasticizer? Is that 15 to increase its elasticity? 16 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection. 11 is my 17 understanding that PCBs are used as 18 plasticizers, so I don't understand your 19 question. 20 In any event, you can explain. 21 BY MR. JUETTNER: 22 Q. Let me rephrase the question. PCBs are then 23 used as plasticizers which can, in one application, 24 become part of food wrapping; is that correct? ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47144 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 203 1 A. Oh, PCBs were not ever promoted for use in 2 food wrapping. There are other plasticizers that are 3 acceptable for contact with food. The PCBs as 4 plasticizers fall into that broad category of 5 plasticizer, but when you say with PCBs used, why 6 were they used as plasticizers, the principal feature 7 was one of inactive. They did not react with the 8 rest of it, the materials, to cause a future problem 9 of any kind. They also were so stable they didn't 10 deteriorate with time. So the caulking you use 11 around that window in the skyscraper would last for 12 decades. It wouldn't become brittle and break and 13 crack off. 14 Another feature in many applications 15 with PCBs as plasticizer, the user of that PCB was 16 s e eking fire resis tanc e to impart that property to 17 that piece of plastic, so if it was near a flame it 18 would not just burn like a candle. 19 Q. Do you know whether PCBs as a plasticizer were 20 ever used as food wrapping? 21 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. What does 22 that have to do with this case? I mean, I 23 don't think anybody is claiming that as part 24 of Plaintiff's claim that food wrapping in the ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47145 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 204 1 Transportation -- ? 2 MR. JUETTNER: I'll try to connect up in a 3 minute. 4 MR. GOUTMAN: Is that part of your 5 claim? 6 MR. MC CLAIN: It might be. It could 7 be. I'll wait for him to connect up. 8 THE WITNESS: Is that question still out 9 there ? 10 MR. GOUTMAN: Why don't you repeat the 11 question. I also think it might have also 12 already been asked and answered. 13 MR. JUETTNER: Can you read back the 14 last question. 15 (The last question was read back by the 16 Court Reporter). 17 THE WITNESS: I have no information that 18 informed me that PCBs per se were used in food 19 wrapping. 20 BY MR. JUETTNER: 21 Q. You don't know whether this issue of PCBs, if 22 it was, it was no t in food wrapping - - s trike tha t. 23 Was there any concern about PCBs as a 24 plasticizer, was there ever any concern raised at ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47146 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 205 1 Monsanto whether PCBs were being leached into the 2 food? 3 A. Yes, this comes about with the use in some 4 printing inks, that Monsanto would sell to an ink 5 place and the ink would, in turn, be sold to somebody 6 that is making a wrapper or a package. There was 7 also concern about some adhesives where you wanted to 8 seal the package with an adhesive. Those kinds of 9 things. 10 Q. And this was part of the problem that you saw 11 with regard to using PCBs in open systems; correct? 12 MR. GOUTMAN: Obj ection to the form of 13 the ques tion. 14 THE WITNESS: Correct. 15 BY MR. JUETTNER: 16 Q. Exhibit 2 0, you looked at tha t a few minutes 17 ago. Actually about an hour ago, but I believe it 18 referred to a report to Monsanto regarding PCBs which 19 were contained in a paint or concrete coating 20 trans f erring or migrating to another produc t; is that 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Was that another example of part of the 24 problems Monsanto perceived in using PCBs in an open ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47147 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 206 1 system? 2 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 3 the question 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 BY MR. JUETTNER: 6 Q. Based on that kind of information, do you know 7 whether Monsanto made any effort to determine if PCB 8 containing products in an open system would transfer 9 or migrate to non PCB containing products? 10 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection. Overly broad. 11 Refers to what, any potential product in this 12 universe where there might be a leaching from 13 one product to another? 14 MR. JUETTNER: Do you understand the 15 question? 16 MR. GOUTMAN: I don't know that I do. 17 THE WITNESS: I'm not real sure. I 18 think you asked, correct me if I'm wrong, you 19 asked if Monsanto conducted any studies to 20 determine whether the use of PCBs in some 21 applications of plasticizer would essentially 22 end up in a food product. 23 BY MR. JUETTNER: 24 Q. Let me try to be more specific. You expressed ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047148 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 207 1 or Monsanto expressed some concerns about PCB 2 products in open systems being released in the 3 environment; is that correct? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. Say, for example, a PCB containing caulk was 6 applied to a building and then another product, which 7 did not contain PCBs, was applied on top of that. 8 Would it be possible, based on the knowledge gained 9 by Monsanto, that the non PCB containing product 10 could receive the PCBs from the PCB containing 11 product ? 12 MR. GOUTMAN: Let me object to the 13 question in that no foundation has been made as to 14 this witness's expert background necessary to answer 15 that question. Secondly, it would ask him to speak 16 for every employee of Monsanto, which I think is 17 unfair. 18 If you understand the question, sir, I 19 think you can answer it . 20 THE WITNESS: I think I understand the 21 question. I don't know that I have an 22 appropriate answer in terms of personal 23 knowledge because I would need more information 24 regarding the compatibility of these two and ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47149 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 1 whether or not PCBs would migrate into the new 2 material or whether the new material would 3 repel it. There's just -- there are too many4 unanswered questions yet to put the whole 5 picture together. 6 BY MR. JUETTNER: 7 Q. So you don't feel today that you are capable 8 of answering whether PCBs can migrate from one 9 product to another? 10 MR. GOUTMAN: Objection to the form of 11 the question. 12 THE WITNESS: I, personally, can't. 13 BY MR. JUETTNER: 14 Q. Do you know the difference between a 15 polysulfide based caulk and urethane caulk? 16 A . No . 17 Q. Do you know whether PCBs sold by Monsanto were 18 used for either a polysulfide based caulk or urethane 19 based caulk? 20 A. I do not. 21 Q. Have you ever heard of PCBs being used in a 22 urethane based caulk? 23 A. No . 24 MR. JUETTNER: That's all I have. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47150 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 209 1 MR. GOUTMAN: I just have one follow-up, 2 sir. 3 4 BY MR. GOUTMAN: 5 Q. You discussed this morning certain precautions 6 that were in effect at Monsanto's plants regarding 7 the handling of PCBs and what to do when PCBs 8 spilled. Were those precautions in effect just for 9 PCBs? 10 A. Well, the same principles apply to all 11 industrial chemicals, ranging from cyanide to water. 12 MR. GOUTMAN: That's all I have. 13 MR. MC CLAIN: I have no further 14 questions. 15 MR. ROUX: No questions. 16 MR. MANNINO: No further que s tions. 17 (Witness excused.) 18 (Deposition concluded at 4:20 p.m.) 19 20 21 22 23 24 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47151 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 210 1 CERTIFICATE 2 3 4 I, JOHN W. BEGLEY, a Registered 5 Professional Reporter and Notary of the State of 6 Pennsylvania, do hereby certify that I reported the 7 deposition of Wi1liam B. Papageorge in the foregoing 8 matter; that the foregoing is a true and correct 9 transcript of the s tenographic notes of testimony 10 taken by me. 11 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not an 12 attorney or counsel of any of the parties; nor a 13 relative or employee to any attorney or counsel 14 c onnec ted with the action, nor am I in any way 15 16 17 18 19 DATE : 20 *NOTE: The certification appended hereto does not 21 apply to any reproduction of same unless under the 22 direct control and/or supervision of the certifying 23 court reporter. 24 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47152 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 211 1 INSTRUCTIONS TO THE WITNESS 2 Read your deposition over carefully. It is 3 your right to read your deposition and make any 4 changes in form or substance. You should assign a 5 reason in the appropriate column on the errata 6 sheet for any change made. 7 After making any change in form or 8 substance which has been noted on the following 9 errata sheet along with the reason for any 10 change, sign your name on the errata sheet and 11 date it. 12 Then sign your deposition at the end of 13 your testimony in the space provided. You are 14 signing it subject to the changes you have made in 15 the errata sheet, which will be attached to the 16 deposition before filing. You must sign it in 17 front of a witness. Have the witness sign in the 18 space provided. The witness need not be a notary 19 public. Any competent adult may witness your 20 signature. 21 Return the original errata sheet & transcript 22 to the deposing attorney, (attorney asking questions) 23 promptly! Court rules require filing within 30 days 24 after you receive the deposition. Thank you. ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047153 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 1 2 PAGE LINE 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 LAWYER'S NOTES ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 214 TOWOLDMONOQ47154 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 INSTRUCTIONS TO THE WITNESS Read your deposition over carefully. It is your right to read your deposition and make any changes in form or sub s tanc e. You should a s sign a reason in the appropriate column on the errata sheet for any change made. After making any change in form or subs tance which has been noted on the following errata sheet along with the reason for any change, sign your name on the errata sheet and date it. Then sign your deposition a t the end of your testimony in the space provided. You are signing it sub j ec t to the changes you have made in the errata sheet, which will be at tached to the deposition before filing. You mu s t sign it in front of a witness. Have the witness sign in the space provided. The witne s s need not be a notary publie. Any competent adult may witness your s igna tur e . ^ R e turn the original errata sheet & transcript to the deposing a ttorney, (a 11orney asking que s tions) promp tlyI Court ru1e s re quire filing within 3 0 days after you receive the deposition. Thank you. __ ~ o TOWOLDMONOQ47155 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 1 2 PAGE LINE # 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ERRATA SHEET CHANGE REASON THEREFOR ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 212 TOWOLDMONOQ47156 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21. 22 23 24 PAGE LINE # ERRATA SHEET CHANGE REASON THEREFOR ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 212 TOWOLDMONOQ47157 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 PAGE LINE # ERRATA SHEET CHANGE REASON THEREFOR ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 212 TOWOLDMONOQ47158 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21. 22 23 24 PAGE LINE # ERRATA SHEET CHANGE REASON THEREFOR ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES 212 TOWOLDMONOQ47159 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 213 1 SIGNATURE PAGE 2 OF 3 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 4 5 6 7 I hereby acknowledge that I have 8 read the aforegoing deposition and that the same is 9 a true and correct transcription of the answers 10 given by me to the questions propounded, except for 11 the changes, if any, noted on the attached errata 12 sheet. 13 14 15 16 17 SIGNATURE: 18 19 20 WITNESSED BY: 21 22 23 DATE : 24 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMON0047160 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 1 SIGNATURE PAGE 2 OF 3 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 4 5 6 7 I hereby acknowledge that I have 8 read the aforegoing deposition and that the same is 9 a true and correct transcription of the answers 10 given by me to the questions propounded, except for 11 the changes, if any, noted on the attached errata 12 sheet. 13 14 15 16 17 SIGNATURE: 18 19 20 WITNESSED BY 21 22 23 DATE : 24 213 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47161 WILLIAM B. PAPAGEORGE 212 1 ERRATA SHEET 2 PAGE LINE # CHANGE REASON THEREFOR 3 rz- 37 - - - 1 <t(v' - '1 y M't') 1 >'l 1 1 *r./ I ' ' "> ~ 7 4 2Z '3 fY):ici P dJC t -- - 1 ,'ic. tV/'-Co * 5 2. 2- / <7 - * rr|,vi,..-</ fhe. ? t} o', n m u - - :\-r<r.x * tt. i /.' 6 73 ^ ^."'3 7 r o7 8 I2( 9 2 cJ ^ j7<c 2 6c?rr(.4 i-,i 7 - - - pc'/-(C-h L't-' ui <ci /I c "2 li'i'Kf'i a 1 Kiir.'iVc'i ^ c "7 2 ii U/5 CV1 e cv ( ,1 Cl C-i i/< *!,, - - - ^, c''-' ' 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SERVICES TOWOLDMONOQ47162